Podcast appearances and mentions of James McDonald

"Continue to learn something new every day.” What happens when a Navy-trained water chemistry expert dives into AI-powered marketing? You get Ben Frieders—Marketing and Business Development Manager at ChemREADY—who's turning the tide on how water treatment professionals use tech.   Whether you're still skeptical of AI or already exploring tools like ChatGPT, this episode offers a masterclass in practical, professional applications tailored for the water treatment world.  From the Navy to Water Treatment: Ben's Story  Ben Frieders shares his journey from operating nuclear submarines to leading marketing at ChemREADY. His technical background in water chemistry uniquely shaped how he approaches strategy, and service.   The Power of Rising Tide Mastermind   Ben explains how a peer group like Rising Tide transformed his professional growth—giving him weekly accountability, mentorship, and a place to talk shop without explanation.   AI in Action: Real Tools, Real Impact  Ben discusses how ChemREADY uses:  ChatGPT for blog and email creation  Sora to generate custom videos  11 Labs to automate audio narration  And more, all while respecting quality control and intellectual property    Prompt Engineering Tips from a Pro  Ben offers his personal playbook for building effective prompts—from defining identity and goals to making AI ask you the right questions. He even shares how to make AI generate its own prompt for best results.    AI for Technical Data Analysis  Learn how Ben's team uploads water treatment reports into ChatGPT to uncover trends, troubleshoot issues, and build insight-driven recommendations for clients.    Balancing Trust and Tech  Ben emphasizes that AI is just a tool—not a replacement for professionals. He shares how he uses AI to amplify strategy, not replace human judgment.   AI isn't a shortcut—it's a skill. Whether you're in sales, marketing, service, or strategy, learning how to prompt and guide AI tools will set you apart in the water treatment industry. Curious how your peers are using AI? Share your go-to tools and discoveries with us on LinkedIn. And if you haven't yet, sign up for our newsletter to get bonus content and tools that go beyond the episode. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps    01:51 – Trace Blackmore shares insights on building client relationships, the value of communication, and recognizing your role in the water treatment industry  07:02 – Water You Know with James McDonald  08:26 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   09:01 – Interview with Ben Frieders, Marketing and Business Development Manager at ChemREADY  20:40 – How ChemREADY uses AI tools in Marketing  37:17 – Using AI in Technical Operations – data interpretation and client analysis    Quotes  “AI is still just a tool. It's not the end all be all—you still need to continually modify the output.”   “Once you learn how to talk to AI, it becomes more of your friend and not your enemy.”  “The more details the better. Precision of language gives you the first best chance to get the output you want.”  “Start slow, experience the models, and see how AI is going to work best for you.”    Connect with Ben Frieders  Phone: (317) 719-1452  Email: bfrieders@zinkan.com  Website: https://www.getchemready.com/   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminfrieders/   https://www.linkedin.com/company/getchemready/     Click HERE to download Episode's Discussion Guide     Guest Resources Mentioned    I said this, You Heard That by Kathleen Edelman  A Grown-Up's Guide To Kids' Wiring by Kathleen Edelman Sora (Open Ai)    Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Scaling UP! H2O's Newsletter Sign Up  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind  The Hang  Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It   402 Game Changing AI Tools: Matt Montellione's Insights    Water You Know with James McDonald   Question: What do you call the device commonly used to measure the percentage of salt in a softener brine solution?    2025 Events for Water Professionals   Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.     

In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore reconnects with returning guest Dave Fitzgerald, President of North Metal & Chemical Company. Known for his forward-thinking predictions, Dave returns to share valuable insights into supply chain forecasting, emotional intelligence in leadership, and how a strong culture can shape business longevity.    Purpose-Driven Predictions  Dave doesn't just react—he predicts. Learn how he turns economic signals, freight trends, and material pricing into reliable forecasting tools to protect inventory and serve loyal customers.    Culture Starts with Emotional Frequency  From hiring and onboarding to daily operations, Dave shares how his team cultivates a culture of emotional intelligence, gratitude, and accountability—without micromanagement or ego.    Profit Sharing That Works  Hear how North Metal's equal-share profit system creates ownership thinking, motivates employees, and naturally builds peer accountability in a no-drama, high-performance workplace.   Mind Over Matter: Meditation & Mental Reframing  Dave's approach to meditation isn't about quieting the mind—it's about training emotional resilience. Learn how “emotional workouts” like cold showers and intentional emotion cycles sharpen leadership from within.    103 Years of Legacy with Eyes on the Future  As North Metal expands nationwide, Dave discusses how to honor legacy while preparing future generations and small businesses for long-term success in a consolidated industry.   Conclusion   From the warehouse to the boardroom, Dave Fitzgerald leads with a rare combination of foresight, humility, and heart. This episode will challenge you to rethink strategy, culture, and how you show up for your customers—and your team. Don't just manage—lead with purpose. Apply Dave's insights to build a resilient culture, forecast smarter, and turn your business into a place people are proud to be part of. Share the episode, subscribe, and join the Scaling UP! Nation in moving the industry forward. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps   02:39 – Trace Blackmore shares about his grandfather  05:50 – Water You Know with James McDonald  07:05 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   09:41 – Interview with returning guest Dave Fitzgerald of North Metal and Chemical Company  15:31 – Anticipating tariff cycles and preparing supply chains accordingly  21:37 – Building a culture of emotional labor, ego-awareness, and care  33:26 – The true story behind the “North” in North Metal    Quotes  “I like to turn my to-do list into a prediction list.” - Dave Fitzgerald  “You're not an island—this industry is full of people who want to connect.”   “Meditation isn't about clearing your mind. It's about intentionally shaping your emotions.”    Connect with Dave Fitzgerald  Phone: 17175777941  Email: dfitzgerald@northchem.com   Website: https://northquestchem.com/   LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/dave-fitzgerald-b9809475     Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans by Seth Godin  Reframe Your Brain: The User Interface for Happiness and Success by Scott Adams  10x Is Easier Than 2x by Dan Sullivan  Unreasonable Hospitality: The Remarkable Power of Giving People More Than They Expect – by Will Guidara North Metals & Chemical Company: Market Update (As of May 2025) North Metals 2025 Newsletter   Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind 334 Inventory Intelligence: Enhancing Profitability through Smart Decisions   Water You Know with James McDonald Question: When measuring a volume of water in a graduated cylinder, what do you call the curve of the liquid when it touches the side of the cylinder?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

Corrosion control is fundamental to the success of any water treatment program, but how often do we question the limitations of the tools we rely on? In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore welcomes back returning guest Mike Standish, Vice President of Water Additives at MFG Chemical, to explore the evolving role of maleic acid-based corrosion inhibitors in industrial water treatment. Drawing on decades of expertise, Mike shares practical insights into when — and when not — to use these innovative solutions to meet today's complex challenges. Understanding the Corrosion Control Toolbox  Mike Standish opens the conversation by reframing corrosion control strategies through the lens of a toolbox analogy. With limited primary approaches — from phosphate-based to organic and metal-based chemistries — the success of corrosion management depends on matching the right tool to the right application. Mike stresses the importance of avoiding overcomplication and focusing on the fundamental chemical pathways for mild steel protection. Organic vs. Inorganic Approaches  The discussion turns to the critical differences between organic and inorganic inhibitors. While inorganic phosphates remain cost-effective mainstays, organic phosphonates, including maleic acid-derived materials, offer advantages in high pH, high hardness, and oxidizing environments. Mike emphasizes that “organic” in water treatment bears no relation to natural or sustainable products, a frequent misconception among newcomers to the industry. Why Maleic Acid-Based Inhibitors Matter  Maleic acid phosphonates distinguish themselves with exceptional oxidant stability, a feature increasingly necessary as continuous halogenation becomes standard practice. Mike explains the chemistry behind maleic acid derivatives and how the ability to tailor molecular structures creates flexibility for specific field conditions — such as scaling tendencies, pH control, and calcium carbonate formation risks. Best Practices for Application and Measurement  Field success with maleic acid-based inhibitors hinges on proper dosage and testing. Mike shares lessons from real-world trials, emphasizing that underfeeding is a common mistake that compromises corrosion rates. Accurate differentiation between orthophosphate and phosphonate concentrations is vital for precise monitoring, and bench testing must closely simulate real-world surface-to-volume ratios to yield reliable predictions. The Future of Corrosion Control  In a forward-looking discussion, Mike predicts that industry consolidation will trigger a second wave of entrepreneurial water treatment companies. His vision underscores the ongoing need for technical excellence, adaptability, and innovation in corrosion management practices as the industry evolves.  This episode challenges water treatment professionals to rethink their corrosion strategies with a sharper, more informed approach. Maleic acid-based inhibitors are not a universal solution, but when applied thoughtfully, they offer powerful advantages for specific operational demands.   Explore more episodes, challenge your assumptions, and lead the way in advancing our industry's standards of technical excellence. Don't forget to subscribe to Scaling UP! H2O for more expert insights in water treatment.  Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps   02:50 – Trace Blackmore shares a recap from previous episode. He also shares about the AWT Innovation Award   06:40 - Water You Know with James McDonald  08:00 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   12:38 - Welcoming back guest Mike Standish, Vice President of Water Additives – MFG Chemical   15:10 – The Value of True Industry Knowledge vs. Surface Information  23:10 – Starting the Technical Discussion: The Corrosion Control Toolbox Analogy  26:07 – Explanation of anodic vs. Cathodic protection mechanisms  37:35 – Situational Applications: When to use maleic acid-based inhibitors  40:11 – Lessons learned from field trials on dosage and corrosion control  41:28 – Importance of Accurate modeling and Surface-to-volume ratios    Quotes  “You going to get more than you can give” – Mike Standish  “Picking the right tool for the right job” – Mike Standish  "Stepping away from work for a mission trip doesn't just help others—it helps you gain a new perspective." – Mike Standish  “You can't just throw a new additive into a system and hope for the best. You need data, understanding of limits, and clear expectations.”  “There's going to be a second generation of AWT companies as industry consolidation continues.”    Connect with Mike Standish  Phone: (615) 207- 3018  Email: mike.standish@radicalpolymers.com  Website: https://www.radicalpolymers.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-standish-7890627/  Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   Mild Steel Corrosion Control using a Maleic-Based Inhibitor  Purposely Built – Introduction of a New Copolymer for Multifunctional Applications Technical Paper     Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind   Legionella Awareness Resources   417 How To Live a Life of Significance: Insights from Aaron Walker  014 The One with Mike Standish   223 Pinks and Blues: Phosphonate Replacements   350 Polymer Perspectives: Understanding Copolymer Innovations in Water Treatment 176 The One About Tagged Polymer Technologies   Water You Know with James   Question: What do you call the large-diameter tube in firetube boilers where the combustion of fuel takes place?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.   

Dr. Kaitlan Baston, former Commissioner of Health for the New Jersey Department of Health and an ASTHO Member, outlines what New Jersey has been doing to address opioids; Kate Murray, Program Supervisor for Long COVID and Post-COVID Conditions at the Minnesota Department of Health, discusses her program and how the work is going; an ASTHO webinar on May 1 focuses on Academic Health Departmetn Partnerships; and ASTHO Member and the New York Commissioner of Health, Dr. James McDonald, will speak at Blooming Day 2025 on May 2. New Jersey Department of Health News Release: NJ Health Department Announces Waiver to Improve Access to Opioid Treatment Services New Jersey Department of Health News Release: ICYMI – Governor Murphy Announces Jeff Brown to Serve as Acting Commissioner of the New Jersey Department of Health Minnesota Department of Health Web Page: Long COVID Resources and Support ASTHO Webinar: Pathways to Academic Health Department Partnerships: Successes and Best Practices Blooming Day 2025 Web Page  

“ Don't Just Be Successful – Be Significant” How do you define success? Is it about financial achievement, accolades, or influence? What if true fulfillment lies in significance rather than just success? In this episode of the Scaling Up H2O podcast, we welcome back a distinguished guest, Aaron Walker. With over four decades of entrepreneurial experience, Aaron has not only built thriving businesses but has also dedicated his life to mentoring others, helping them navigate their paths with purpose. His belief that "Relationships Matter Most" is a guiding principle for those seeking deeper fulfillment in life and business.   The Journey to Significance  Aaron shares his personal and professional evolution, revealing how a tragic event shifted his perspective from chasing success to pursuing significance. He opens up about the lessons that redefined his mission and the impact of his book, View from the Top.  Mastermind Groups: The Secret to Accelerated Growth  What role do mastermind groups play in professional and personal development? Aaron explains why surrounding yourself with the right people can exponentially change your trajectory and how being part of a trusted network fosters accountability, wisdom, and breakthroughs.  Balancing Ambition and Serving Others  Success often comes at a cost, but how can we ensure it aligns with serving others? Aaron discusses the shift from self-focused goals to meaningful contributions, demonstrating how generosity and intentionality create a life of greater impact.  The Power of Intentional Living  How can we structure our daily habits for fulfillment and productivity? Aaron outlines his morning routines, scheduling techniques, and core principles that allow him to focus on what truly matters. Discover practical steps to bring clarity and purpose to your everyday life.  The Gift of Gratitude and Forgiveness  Aaron opens up about the power of forgiveness in setting oneself free from emotional burdens. He shares his personal experiences of releasing resentment and how gratitude plays a crucial role in living a more content and purpose-driven life.  Living a life of significance requires more than just business acumen—it demands a mindset shift, intentionality, and a willingness to serve others. Aaron Walker's wisdom provides a roadmap for those looking to create lasting impact in their careers and relationships.  What's one step you can take today to move toward significance? Tune in, reflect, and take action!  Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!     Timestamps    02:14 - Trace Blackmore shares celebration about the 55th anniversary of Earth Day  05:30 - Water You Know with James McDonald  07:50 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   11:27 - Aaron Walker's return to the show and his journey as an entrepreneur and mentor  13:38 - View from the Top: Why Aaron wrote the book and how it changed lives  20:10 - Mastermind groups: Why you shouldn't walk alone  41:10 - The life-changing power of gratitude   Quotes  "Success is about you; significance is about others."   "We all need a little rest, a reset, and a reevaluation to live our best lives."   "Intentionality is about doing things deliberately, with purpose."  "Gratitude is not about what you have; it's about recognizing the value in what you experience."  "You've forgiven someone when you quit demanding justice."  "Isolation is the enemy of excellence." “It's ok if you don't know, not to have the answers, and to ask questions.”    Connect with Aaron Walker  Phone: 615-207-3018  Email: aaron@viewfromthetop.com  Website: isibrotherhood.com  LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronwalkerviewfromthetop   Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   Iron Sharpens Iron Mastermind View From the Top   Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge   Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind 184 The One Where I Interview My Mastermind Mentor 248 The One About Taking A Sabbatical 415 Green Building Updates: What You Need to Know 12 Week Year Five Minute Journal    Water You Know with James McDonald Question: What is the phenomenon called where calcium and magnesium are LESS soluble as the temperature RISES?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.     

“Always test your tools before field use. Side-by-side comparisons ensure repeatability and accuracy.” In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore delivers an in-depth update on the SteriPen, a widely used tool for water treatment professionals. After overwhelming demand from listeners, we revisit the SteriPen, its capabilities, and its impact on testing organic phosphates and azoles. If you're looking for efficiency, precision, and portability in water testing, this episode is packed with actionable insights.  The Evolution of the SteriPen Learn how the SteriPen became a game-changer in the industrial water treatment industry. Originally designed for hikers, it's now widely adopted for phosphate digestion and azole testing.  SteriPen Classic 3 vs. SteriPen Ultra: Which One Is Right for You? Trace compares the Classic 3 and Ultra models, discussing their battery life, efficiency, usability, and cost-effectiveness. Get clarity on which device suits your testing needs best.   Testing Efficiency: Reducing Time While Maintaining Accuracy Find out how the SteriPen reduces testing time by half while maintaining accuracy, making it a must-have tool for water professionals.  Best Practices for SteriPen Use From choosing the right vials and batteries to ensuring consistent testing results, this segment walks you through practical applications and expert recommendations.  The Future of Water Testing How innovations like the SteriPen and other portable UV tools are reshaping the way industrial water treatment professionals conduct daily testing.  With water testing advancements, efficiency is key. Whether you're new to SteriPen or looking to upgrade, this episode provides valuable insights to optimize your water testing process.  Water professionals deserve better tools. Upgrade your phosphate and azole testing with the right SteriPen for maximum efficiency and accuracy.  Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps 02:28 – Trace Blackmore shares a recap of Episode 414 06:47 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   16:15 – Water You Know with James McDonald  20:45 – Deep dive into SteriPen device: it's history and application 33:29 – Comparison between SteriPen Classic 3 and SteriPen Ultra  36:00 – Testing Procedures for organic and phosphate and azole tests  38:02 – Charging and battery life for both SteriPen models    Connect with Scaling UP! H2O Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/  YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O  Click HERE to download Episode's Discussion Guide      Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Ep 046 The One About Phosphate Testing Ep 414 Pinks and Blues: Trace's Phosphate Redux Ep 415 Green Building Updates: What You Need to Know AA Battery Cases Augmenting your testing procedures for Phosphonate and Azole testing AWT (Association of Water Technologies)   Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA Batteries Eowpower 30pcs 50ml Plastic Vial Storage Container  Hach UV Lamp Kit, 115V  Hach Benzotriazole/Tolyltriazole  Hach Orthophospate PhosVer 3  Hach Phosphonate Lithium re-chargeable batteries  Re-chargeable Lithium Batteries with charger  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Steri Pen Classic 3  SteriPen Ultra  SteriPen Ultra – Katadyn Fact Sheet Submit a Show Idea  The unboxing of everything you need to use the SteriPen in your Phosphonate and Azole testing  Taylor Technologies Test Procedures:  Phosphonate  Taylor Technologies Test Procedures: Azole  World Vision Global 6k for Water    Water You Know with James McDonald Question: Does silica solubility typically decrease or increase with rising temperature?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

In this episode,UFC - Alexander Volkanovski reclaims back the featherweight belt over Diego Lopes. Paddy the baddy dominates Michael Chandler. NRL - Lachlan Galvin has declined a 5M offer from the Tigers. EPL - KDB puts on a masterclass against Crystal Palace after they come from 2-0 to win 5-2. Virgil Van Djik wins it late against West Ham.Manchester United and Spurs flogged again. Horse racing - Treasurethe moment wins the Oaks. Arapaho wins the Sydney cup at huge odds. Via Sistina wins her 7th group 1. Fangirl wins the Queen Of The Turf after an incredible ride by James McDonald. Accountability - Football best bets hit. Bin list/ Listener questions - When the cashier tries to make you buy a chocolate. Being referred to an overseas call centre. Not replying when they're online. Managers who expect you to be phone accessible 24/7. People who drum on every surface. Liverpools new right back options. Rank - Oblak, Donnarumma & Maignan Who makes the CL in the EPL? EPL match day 33 preview & goal scorer multi. NRL round 7 preview & stats you need to know. Punt off bets, generational wealth & football best bets. Make sure you follow coastalsportspod on Instagram to keep up to date. (0:00) Catch up(5:18) UFC 314 recap(9:05) Lachlan Galvin to leave Tigers (11:57) EPL review (15:08) Group 1 Racing (15:52) Accountability (19:06) Horses to follow (22:18) Life hindsight (25:06) When the cashier tries to make you buy a chocolate (27:22) Being referred to an overseas call centre (27:29) Not replying when there online (30:57) Managers who expect you be phone accessible 24/7(32:10) Drumming on every surface (34:00) People trying to sell you something outside shops(35:39) Driving to a national park and recording yourself cooking (36:48) Liverpools new right back (39:14) Rank - Oblak, Donnarumma or Maignan(41:31) Who makes the CL in the EPL(44:29) EPL match day 33 preview (51:24) Manly v Dragons(58:24) Bulldogs v Rabbitohs (1:04:03) Dolphins v Storm(1:10:09) Warriors v Broncos(1:14:40) Roosters v Panthers(1:19:30) Titans v Raiders (1:23:21) Knights v Sharks(1:27:53) Tigers v Eels(1:32:22) Generational wealth (1:34:00) Football best bets

“When there's a will, there's a way.” - Charlie Cichetti Sustainability is more than just a trend—it's a commitment to a better future. In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore sits down with Charlie Cichetti, LEED Fellow + WELL AP, CEO + Co-Founder of Skema.AI, a leading expert in green building to discuss the latest updates in sustainability and how they impact industries worldwide.  From energy efficiency to new LEED requirements, Charlie breaks down what professionals need to know about the latest green building innovations. Whether you're a facilities manager, an industrial water treatment expert, or just passionate about sustainability, this episode is packed with valuable insights, actionable advice, and a roadmap to making buildings greener and more efficient. What's New in Green Building? Green building standards are evolving, and LEED Version 5 is on the horizon. Learn how new prerequisites like electric vehicle charging stations and community impact considerations are shaping the future of sustainable infrastructure. LEED vs. WELL Certification: What's the Difference? LEED focuses on building performance and environmental impact, while WELL centers around health and well-being. Charlie breaks down how these certifications complement each other and why they matter in today's workplace. Energy Efficiency & Decarbonization Strategies How can companies reduce their carbon footprint and operating costs? Learn about smart buildings, microgrids, battery storage, and HVAC optimization—essential tools for cutting energy consumption while improving efficiency. Green Financing: How to Fund Sustainability Initiatives Many professionals assume sustainability upgrades are costly, but green financing, tax deductions, and government incentives make it easier than ever to fund energy and water-saving projects. Charlie shares how to access these opportunities. The Role of Water Treatment in Green Buildings The water-energy nexus is critical in sustainability efforts. Learn how industrial water treatment, cooling tower optimization, and HVAC efficiency contribute to green building goals and LEED certification points. Bottom Line Green buildings aren't just about reducing environmental impact—they're also about saving money, increasing efficiency, and creating healthier spaces. Tune in to discover practical ways you can implement sustainable practices in your facilities. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps  02:12 - Trace Blackmore shares the Intro & Reflections on AI and Skynet 07:40 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals 09:38 - Water You Know with James McDonald  11:29 - Interview with Charlie Cichetti about the latest on green building  25:31 - LEED vs. WELL: Understanding the Difference  31:50 - How to Get Started with Green Buildings  33:01 - Future of Green Building   Quotes "Sustainability isn't just about being green; it's about reducing costs, improving efficiency, and creating a healthier work environment." – Charlie Cichetti  "Benchmarking is the first step to making any building greener—know where you stand so you can improve." – Charlie Cichetti  "LEED is still the most recognized green building certification globally." – Charlie Cichetti    Connect with Charlie Cichetti  Phone: (706) 633-6689  Email: charlie@skema.ai  Website: https://gbes.com/  LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliecichetti/   Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   Green Building Education Services (GBES) Green Building Matters Podcast Trello Skema AI LEED Version 4 WELL (Certification)    Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind 402 Game-Changing AI Tools: Matt Montellione's Insights 004 It's Not Easy Being Green! 032.5 The One That Takes You to AWT's 2018 Technical Training 410 Unleash Your Pricing Power: Casey Brown's ‘Fearless Pricing' Revolutionizes Business Value   Water You Know with James McDonald   Question: What scaling index was developed in 1936 to predict the scaling potential of calcium carbonate in drinking water systems?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

New WARC data models potential scenarios for media channels and key global markets as a result of economic upheaval. WARC's Alex Brownsell and James McDonald go through the numbers.WARC Subscribers can read the full Q1 2025 Global Ad Forecast update here.

"Scaling is like debt—it's always better to prevent it than to clean it up later." Phosphate plays a crucial role in Industrial Water Treatment, yet it remains one of the most misunderstood chemicals. In this Pinks and Blues episode, Trace Blackmore revisits phosphate chemistry and its application in cooling systems, corrosion prevention, and scale inhibition. Breaking Down Phosphate Chemistry Phosphate exists in different forms, each with specific applications in water treatment.  Orthophosphate (PO4³⁻): The simplest and most reactive form, used for corrosion inhibition.  Polyphosphate: A longer chain of phosphate molecules that can hydrolyze into orthophosphate.  Organic Phosphates: Phosphate compounds bonded with organic molecules, often used in scale inhibition.  Total Phosphate: A combination of all phosphate types in a system.  Phosphate Testing – What Every Water Pro Should Know Phosphate levels must be carefully monitored to maintain system integrity. Trace explains:  Why the orthophosphate test is the most reliable for phosphate analysis.  How to convert different phosphate forms to orthophosphate for testing.  The difference between the Molybdate Vanadate Method (yellow test) and the Ascorbic Acid Method (blue test).  The importance of accurate dilution and testing procedures to prevent measurement errors. Challenges and Considerations in Phosphate Treatment  Biological Growth: Phosphate serves as a nutrient, promoting microbial growth if not controlled properly.  Environmental Regulations: Certain facilities may have phosphate discharge limits.  Calcium Phosphate Scaling: High temperatures and improper phosphate dosages can cause severe scaling issues. Best Practices for Phosphate Management  Monitor carbon and alkalinity levels to determine the best phosphate formulation.  Use stability indices (e.g., Ryzner Stability Index, Langelier Saturation Index) to predict scale formation.  Adjust treatment strategies based on pH levels and system conditions to avoid unintended scale buildup.  Always verify environmental discharge limits when using phosphate-based treatments. Mastering phosphate chemistry and testing techniques ensures better system performance, cost efficiency, and regulatory compliance. This episode empowers water professionals to optimize their approach to phosphate-based treatments. Tune in to learn practical strategies for optimizing phosphate levels, preventing scale, and ensuring system efficiency. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!  Timestamps  03:16 – Trace Blackmore shares the importance of Quarterly Planning for Business and Personal Goals 06:30 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   08:20 – Water You Know with James McDonald  12:03 – Introduction to Phosphate and Its Role in Water Treatment  18:31 – Understanding Phosphate Forms: Orthophosphate, Polyphosphate, Organic Phosphate  21:32 – Phosphate as a Corrosion & Scale Inhibitor in Cooling Systems 34:33 – Testing Phosphate: Why the Orthophosphate Test is Key  51:37 – The Importance of Understanding Water Chemistry Before Selecting Treatment Plans Connect with Scaling UP! H2O  Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea  LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/  YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O    Click HERE to download Episode's Discussion Guide    Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Audible  12 Week Year  Ep 046 The One About Phosphate Testing  Ep 024 The One With All the Questions Taylor Technologies Test Procedures:  Phosphonate, Azole AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea Phosphonates Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the process called to evaluate the performance and efficiency of a water softener by taking regeneration water samples, measuring their salinity, and interpreting their results? 2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.   

Charlotte Greenway filling in for Nick and joined by Timeform's Dan Barber to look ahead to the action from Aintree, kicking off tomorrow. Dan and Charlotte take a deep dive into Friday's declarations and pick out a couple of eye catchers as well as those that have something to prove. Charlotte also gets the low down on Hewick from Shark Hanlon ahead of his National bid whilst Max McNeill discusses his exciting Aintree team, including his two in the big one. Ben Atkins joins for our weekly P2P segment ahead of tomorrow's Foxhunters at Aintree with reflection on yesterday's Hunter Chase sponsored by the podcast on which Olive Nicholls shares her delight after victory aboard Viroflay. Finally, off to Dubai where JA McGrath is in situ and has news of the Hong Kong runners as well as a catch up with James McDonald on his mounts.

Charlotte Greenway filling in for Nick and joined by Timeform's Dan Barber to look ahead to the action from Aintree, kicking off tomorrow. Dan and Charlotte take a deep dive into Friday's declarations and pick out a couple of eye catchers as well as those that have something to prove. Charlotte also gets the low down on Hewick from Shark Hanlon ahead of his National bid whilst Max McNeill discusses his exciting Aintree team, including his two in the big one. Ben Atkins joins for our weekly P2P segment ahead of tomorrow's Foxhunters at Aintree with reflection on yesterday's Hunter Chase sponsored by the podcast on which Olive Nicholls shares her delight after victory aboard Viroflay. Finally, off to Dubai where JA McGrath is in situ and has news of the Hong Kong runners as well as a catch up with James McDonald on his mounts.

"Strategic planning is creating certainty in an uncertain world." – Tim Fulton Strategic planning is essential for success in any business, yet many companies either overlook or struggle with the process. In this episode, Trace Blackmore welcomes back Tim Fulton, President of Small Business Matters, to explore the fundamentals of strategic planning and how businesses can chart their course for success.   Tim shares insights on why strategic planning matters, how to involve the right people, and how to create a plan that actually works. Whether you're a business owner, manager, or part of a team, this episode provides valuable takeaways to help you navigate uncertainty, set clear objectives, and execute effectively. Why Strategic Planning is Critical Strategic planning helps businesses stay focused in an unpredictable world. By analyzing past performance, assessing the present, and setting future goals, companies can adapt to changing markets, industry trends, and emerging technologies like AI. Who Should Be Involved in Strategic Planning? Successful planning requires input from leaders and key employees at different levels. Involving the right people fosters collaboration, avoids blind spots, and ensures that the plan is practical and actionable, rather than created in isolation. The SWOT Analysis: A Tool for Understanding Your Business A SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) helps businesses understand their position. Identifying strengths and weaknesses within the company, along with external opportunities and threats, provides a clearer strategy for growth and risk management. Executing the Plan & Measuring Success A strategic plan is only effective if it's executed properly. Setting SMART goals (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Time-bound) ensures clarity, while quarterly reviews and color-coded tracking (Green, Yellow, Red) help teams monitor progress. Methods like the 12-Week Year and OKRs (Objectives & Key Results) keep businesses on track and accountable. Why Having a Third-Party Facilitator Can Make a Difference An outside facilitator brings an objective perspective, helping businesses stay focused and engaged during planning. Leaders who try to both facilitate and participate often struggle to balance these roles. Involving an expert improves discussions and strengthens team buy-in. Common Mistakes in Strategic Planning & How to Avoid Them Many businesses fail in strategic planning due to poor communication, lack of follow-through, and ignoring potential risks. A strong plan must be actively maintained throughout the year to ensure long-term success. Tim Fulton joined Trace Blackmore to deliver essential insights into strategic planning, emphasizing clarity, involvement, accountability, and the power of facilitation. This episode challenges listeners to create meaningful strategies, fostering organizational resilience and success in any environment. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!   Timestamps    3:00 – Trace Blackmore encourages listeners to help spread the word about Scaling UP! H2O Podcast by sharing it with their colleagues and network 07:00 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals 09:12 – Water You Know with James McDonald 11:00 – Interview starts: Welcoming back Tim Fulton 13:12 – What is Strategic Planning? 15:44 – Who should be involved in Strategic Planning? 23:22 – Why should companies strategically plan 34:58 – Best time for strategic planning 40:00 – Objective and Key Results (OKRs) explained   Quotes  "No weigh-in equals no buy-in.” - Patrick Lencioni, quoted by Trace “Fear is the biggest obstacle preventing businesses from strategic planning.” - Tim Fulton “Not having a plan is a plan for failure.” - Trace Blackmore “Doing strategic planning without a facilitator is like being quarterback and referee at the same time.” - Tim Fulton Connect with Tim Fulton Phone: (678) 427- 9436 Email: timfulton@hotmail.com Website: smallbusinessmattersonline.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timcfulton/  Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide     Guest Resources Mentioned The Meeting by Tim Fulton Measure What Matters by John Doerr Traction by Gino Wickman    Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind 022 The One with Tim Fulton   280 The One About Retaining Top Talent   289 The One About A SWOT Analysis with A Twist   368 Adapting to the New Workforce: Attracting Top Talent 164 The One With Chris McChesney What the Heck Is EOS? A Complete Guide for Employees in Companies Running on EOS by Gino Wickman   The 12 Week Year   The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What do you call the attraction of water molecules to each other that gives water its unique properties, such as a high surface tension, high boiling point, and ability to dissolve many substances?   2025 Events for Water Professionals Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.  

"Be the iron fist that keeps your water flowing clean and clear." - Trace Blackmore Welcome back to another insightful Pinks & Blues episode of Scaling UP! H2O! In this episode, host Trace Blackmore dives into the fascinating world of iron in water treatment systems. While iron is essential for life, it can be a major problem in industrial water systems, leading to corrosion, equipment damage, and inefficiencies. This episode unpacks the science behind iron, testing methods, and practical strategies for managing its impact.  Understanding the Iron Triangle  To effectively manage iron in water systems, it's important to understand its different forms. Trace explains the Iron Triangle, breaking down the differences between elemental iron (Fe), ferrous iron (Fe2+), and ferric iron (Fe3+). He discusses how iron moves through water systems and why recognizing these distinctions is critical for water treatment professionals.  How to Test for Iron Accurately  Proper testing is key to managing iron levels. Trace details the phenanthroline method, a common technique used to measure iron concentrations in water. He provides best practices for accurate testing, discusses common interferences like molybdates and nitrites, and explains how to adjust testing methods to ensure reliable results. Corrosion and Iron's Impact on System Longevity  Iron is a major contributor to corrosion in water systems, and Trace explains why steel corrodes so easily. He covers the role of corrosion inhibitors and the importance of filtration systems in preventing excessive iron buildup. By managing iron effectively, professionals can protect equipment, reduce maintenance costs, and improve system efficiency.  Math in Action: Calculating Total Iron in a System  For those who love applying real-world math, Trace walks through the process of calculating total iron in pounds within a system. He explains how this calculation can help justify maintenance decisions and provide a compelling reason for clients to invest in proper water treatment solutions. Takeaways: Why Iron Management Matters  This episode is packed with valuable insights for water professionals looking to improve their approach to iron management. From understanding the science behind iron to implementing better testing and corrosion prevention strategies, this discussion is designed to help you stay ahead in your field.  Have a water treatment question? Want to hear a topic covered in a future Pinks & Blues episode? Submit your ideas at ScalingUpH2O.com/showideas  —your input helps shape future episodes! And remember, iron might be essential for our bodies, but in water systems, it's a force to be reckoned with. Mastering iron control is key to maintaining system efficiency and preventing costly damage. Be the iron fist that keeps your water flowing clean and clear!    Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!  Timestamps    03:20 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals 06:44– Water You Know with James McDonald  09:35 – Trace talks about Iron Historical Figure  15:28 – Iron that's in Water Systems 17:39 – Understanding Corrosion & How It Impacts Your System  18:24 – The Iron Triangle  19:58 – The Phenanthroline Method   Quotes  “Steel is the most recycled material on this planet.”   “If you're treating your tests like a task, you're missing the magic of this industry.” “Iron might be essential for our bodies, but it can be a real troublemaker when it's dissolved in the water in our systems, so don't let iron catch you off guard.”  Connect with Scaling UP! H2O  Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea  LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/  YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O    Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide     Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind   How its Made Steel by How it's Made Show   400 Celebrating 2024 and 400 Episodes!  399 Pinks and Blues: The Science of Serial Dilution  397 Pinks and Blues: How to look at your tests    Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is a plastic or rubber device that seals the outside of a reverse osmosis membrane against the inside wall of the pressure vessel to prevent feedwater from bypassing around the membrane element? 2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

“Be curious because the more you learn, the more exciting it is. Hit those challenges head on.” - Ryan Reimer  Adiabatic humidification is revolutionizing climate control, offering an energy-efficient way to maintain humidity and cooling in industrial and commercial spaces. But what exactly is adiabatic humidification, and how does it compare to traditional isothermal methods? In this episode, host Trace Blackmore welcomes Ryan Reimer of  Hydrotrue, to break down the mechanics, benefits, and critical applications of adiabatic humidification. Together, they explore how this low-energy cooling method is reshaping healthcare, data centers, museums, and more, helping industries achieve optimal indoor air quality while reducing energy consumption.  Introduction to Adiabatic Humidification  The episode kicks off the episode about how adiabatic cooling utilizes natural evaporation to improve energy efficiency in climate control. It highlights how water professionals can integrate this technology to enhance industrial operations. Adiabatic vs. Isothermal Humidification – Understanding the Difference Ryan Reimer explains the key distinctions between adiabatic (evaporation-based) and isothermal (steam-based) humidification methods. While isothermal requires an external heat source, adiabatic systems leverage ambient air energy for humidification, reducing operational costs.   Industries That Benefit from Adiabatic Cooling  From hospitals and healthcare facilities to data centers, museums, and commercial spaces, adiabatic humidification is making waves. Ryan dives into real-world applications and how industries can optimize their HVAC systems for better efficiency.  Efficiency & Water Treatment Considerations  How high-purity water enhances humidification system performance  Preventing scale buildup with the right water treatment solutions  The impact of Legionella risk mitigation and best hygiene practices for humidifiers  Maintenance & Seasonal Considerations  Water treatment professionals know that humidification systems require ongoing maintenance. Ryan shares best practices for:  Preventing scale buildup  End-of-season cleaning & lay-up procedures  Optimizing energy savings through smart system design  The Bottom Line – Why Adiabatic Humidification is the Future  With rising energy costs and increasing sustainability initiatives, industries are transitioning to adiabatic cooling. Ryan and Trace highlight the long-term benefits, cost savings, and system reliability this technology offers.  Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!   Timestamps   03:06 - Trace Blackmore shares about the significance of π Day  07:26 - Upcoming events in Water Industry  14:27 - Water You Know with James McDonald  17:13 - Interview with Ryan Reimer of Hydrotrue  20:00 - What is adiabatic humidification, and how does it work?  36:31 - Addressing Legionella risks and ensuring hygienic humidification    Quotes  “As water treaters, stagnant water is usually not our best friend as it relates to dead legs.” - Ryan Reimer “One important step after completing the acid cleaning process is using a neutralizer component.” - Ryan Reimer  “Always have an open mind to what is in a facility. You never know what you're going to run into and what the facility's goals are and challenges are. And just be curious.” - Ryan Reimer “Find a circle that can help build you up and one that you can help build up. That's how we make our lives better. That's how we make this industry better.” - Trace Blackmore "Adiabatic humidification allows us to use the energy already in the air – making it an extremely efficient solution for climate control." – Ryan Reimer    Connect with Ryan Reimer  Phone: 612-655-4162   Email: rreimer45@gmail.com ryan.reimer@hydrotruewater.com   Website: https://hydrotruewater.com/   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-reimer-2768a144/   Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   DriSteem Water Fundamental Handbook   The Way of Kings, Stormlight Archive Book 1 by Brandon Sanderson The Words of Radiance, Stormlight Archive Book 2 by Brandon Sanderson Oathbringer, Stormlight Archive Book 3 by Brandon Sanderson  VDI 6022  ASHRAE Standard 170  Mycometer   Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind   World Vision's Global 6K for Water EVAPCO Training Literature: Adiabatic Cooling    Water You Know with James McDonald   Question: What is the molar mass of calcium carbonate?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

"If you're excellent at what you do, you've got to be paid like you're excellent." – Casey Brown  Ever wondered if you're truly getting paid what you're worth? In this unmissable episode of Scaling UP! H2O, we bring back Casey Brown, speaker, founder of Boost Pricing and author of the newly released Fearless Pricing. Known for her electrifying talks and actionable insights, Casey dives deep into how businesses can build confidence, charge their true value, and break free from the fear of pricing discussions.  From her journey as an engineer to becoming a pricing powerhouse, Casey's passion for helping businesses thrive shines through. Whether you're in sales, management, or leadership, this episode will leave you inspired and ready to tackle your next negotiation.   Highlights include:  The Psychology of Pricing: Why fear dominates most pricing conversations—and how to overcome it. Pricing Integrity: Learn how setting and sticking to fair, defensible prices can boost trust and long-term success. Handling Objections with Confidence: Proven strategies to turn pricing objections into opportunities. The "Hot Sauce" Analogy: Discover how to identify overlooked products or services that can deliver high profits with minimal pricing sensitivity. Unexercised Pricing Power: How to unlock hidden revenue by testing and refining your pricing strategy. Role-Playing for Success: How procedural memory and consistent practice can transform your sales team's confidence and results.  Bottom Line  This episode is your ultimate guide to fearless pricing, equipping you with the tools and mindset to boost profitability and set yourself apart from the competition. Don't miss the chance to learn from Casey's expertise and take your business to the next level!  Click play, take notes, and start commanding the value your business deserves. Don't let fear control your profits—listen now to gain the confidence and strategies you need to succeed. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!    Timestamps    1:44 - Trace asks intriguing questions about the price of everyday items like gas and hot sauce to set the stage for a deeper discussion on pricing   02:23 - Events for Water Professionals   04:20 - Water You Know with James McDonald   05:35 - Interview with Casey Brown, speaker, founder of Boost Pricing, and the author of the newly released book ‘Fearless Pricing'   13:05 - How small discounts can devastate your bottom line  32:23 - Why debriefing every deal is critical for refining your pricing strategy  33:41 - The “Hot Sauce Analogy”  45:00 – Final Thoughts and Takeaways    Quotes  “We can't know, unless we try. The world is your Petri dish. “- Casey Brown  “The how is training and coaching and concepts; the why is rotted in the mission to help people who are excellent be paid like they're excellent.” - Casey Brown  “We can't fix pricing or profitability through calculation. We must address the biggest obstacle to success, which is FEAR.” - Casey Brown  “Pricing is generally the area of greatest fear and greatest discomfort.” - Casey Brown  “In absence of financial pricing integrity, unearned discounts hurt trust.” - Casey Brown  “The way to get comfortable doing something uncomfortable is to practice it.” - Casey Brown  "Every business has hot sauce and gasoline—products where pricing sensitivity varies drastically. Identify yours." – Casey Brown    Connect with Casey Brown  Phone: 614-679-7999  Email: casey@boostpricing.com   Website: www.Caseybrown.com    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseybrownboost/   Subscribe to Casey Brown's Newsletter: https://www.boostpricing.com/signup    Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide   Guest Resources Mentioned   Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap...And Others Don't by Jim Collins  They Ask You Answer by Marcus Sheridan  Outlive by Peter Attia  Essentialism by Greg McKeown  The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel  Fearless Pricing by Casey Brown    Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)  Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind  363 Pricing Boost: Get Paid Well For Your Excellence with Casey Brown  The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey    Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the conversion between parts-per-million and milligrams per Liter?   2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"Water is a limited resource, and in this refinery, every gallon saved is a win for sustainability." – Juan Meneses Water is a critical resource in industrial operations, and improving efficiency is a top priority for many companies. In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, returning guest Juan Meneses, District Manager at Nalco Water, an Ecolab Company, discusses how a Western refinery optimized its water footprint using advanced treatment technologies.  This episode is packed with insights on water conservation strategies, sustainability goals, and the role of advanced monitoring technologies like 3D TRASAR in maximizing operational efficiency while minimizing environmental impact.  Key Topics Covered:  The Challenges of Water Usage in Refineries  This refinery faced rising water costs and increasing sustainability pressures. With water sourced from the city, costs were projected to rise by 5% annually, with wastewater discharge costs climbing even faster. Finding ways to reduce water consumption while maintaining efficiency was a top priority.  Optimizing Cooling Towers for Maximum Water Efficiency  Cooling towers presented a key opportunity for conservation. The team aimed to increase cycles of concentration to reduce water waste without compromising system integrity. By using 3D TRASAR technology, they monitored real-time conditions, allowing precise adjustments to prevent scaling and corrosion.  Implementing Smart Water Treatment Strategies  To sustain higher cycles, the refinery introduced dual cathodic inhibitors and high-charge polymers, enhancing corrosion and scale control. pH adjustments ensured effective biocide performance while maintaining system reliability. This strategic shift allowed for significant reductions in water and chemical use.  Results and Lessons Learned  By increasing cycles from 5.5 to 9.3, the refinery saved 52 million gallons of water annually while cutting wastewater discharge and chemical consumption. The biggest takeaway? Real-time monitoring and proactive pH control are essential for maintaining efficiency at higher cycles.  Best Practices for Industrial Water Optimization  Collaboration between plant operators and water treatment professionals is key. Regular monitoring, data-driven decision-making, and advanced automation tools can help refineries maximize efficiency while meeting sustainability goals. Water conservation is good for business and the environment. Could your facility save millions of gallons? Explore advanced water treatment strategies today. Learn more at ScalingUpH2O.com. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!  Timestamps   02:14 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals   08:02 – Water You Know with James McDonald  10:20 – Interview with returning guest Juan Meneses, District Manager at Nalco Water about Western Refinery Water Efficiency   11:06 – The biggest water challenges faced by the refinery  12:11 – Strategies for optimizing water footprint and sustainability goals  14:07 – How 3D TRASAR and modeling software improve water efficiency  24:50 – Water savings achieved: 52 million gallons saved  29:21 – Best practices for communicating water optimization goals  Quotes  “The way that we can reduce water in the cooling tower is to increase cycle of concentration.” – Juan Meneses "A good implementation of this project, if you can, with good and advanced monitoring and automation. You can optimize your chemical treatment by modeling the condition.” - Juan Meneses “About the teamwork, foster collaboration and communication with the customer are key component of that and focus on sustainability.” - Juan Meneses   Connect with Juan Meneses  Phone: 337.309.9619  Email: jmeneses@ecolab.com  Website: Reinventing the Way Water is Managed | Nalco Water  LinkedIn: Juan A. Meneses | LinkedIn  Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide    Guest Resources Mentioned   CH 2029 Western Refinery Optimizes Water Footprint Using 3D Trasar Technology for Cooling Modeling Tools paper  Crucial Conversations Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, Second Edition: Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler   Good Profit: How Creating Value for Others Built One Of The World's Most Successful Company by Charles Koch  The 4 Disciplines of Execution: Achieving Your Wildly Important Goals by Sean Covey (Author), Chris McChesney (Author), Jim Huling (Author)      Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies)   IWC (International Water Conference)      Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses  Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind   405 Cooling Water Innovation: Harnessing Wastewater for Sustainability 164 The One With Chris McChesney    Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What effect will the water temperature have on softener backwash during regeneration?    2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.   

What gets measured gets improved. But without a process, how do we know what to improve?  In this brand-new episode, Trace Blackmore, the host of Scaling UP! H2O Podcast and the CEO and Founder of Blackmore Enterprises, dives deep into the power of processes in industrial water treatment. Learn why creating and documenting processes is essential for consistency, collaboration, and success. Hear Trace's personal journey of process discovery, practical steps for implementation, and how processes can make your work more efficient and fun. Plus, a new "Water You Know" segment by James McDonald challenges your water treatment knowledge. Don't miss this insightful episode filled with actionable takeaways! Trace Blackmore introduces the value of processes, sharing his love for procedures and why they are vital for the industrial water treatment community. From his early experiences at McDonald's to his current role, Trace illustrates how processes drive consistency and success. The Power of Processes in Water Treatment  Discover how processes are the backbone of efficiency in the water treatment industry, guiding consistency and measurable improvements across daily tasks and large-scale operations.  A Practical Framework for Success  Learn actionable steps to create, document, and refine processes that save time, enhance accuracy, and drive collaboration within your team or solo operations.  Lessons from Episode 397: Categorizing for Clarity  Explore Trace's approach to categorizing and establishing testing procedures, from Episode 397, and see how small tweaks can yield significant efficiency gains.  From McDonald's to Water Treatment: The Art of Rigor  Trace shares personal anecdotes from his first job at McDonald's, revealing how the company's focus on procedural rigor inspired his passion for creating and following efficient workflows.  Behind the Scenes of Scaling Up H2O  Get a rare glimpse into the processes that power the Scaling Up H2O podcast. From pre-recording preparation to publishing episodes, see how structured workflows ensure quality and consistency.  Why Everyone Needs Procedures—Even Solo Professionals  Trace busts the myth that procedures are only for teams. Learn how structured processes can help solo professionals work smarter, not harder, and achieve consistent results every time. Trace emphasizes that processes are the backbone of success in water treatment and other industries. He encourages listeners to take actionable steps in documenting one procedure this week and to celebrate improvements. Processes transform chaos into clarity. By embracing structured methods, you not only improve operations but also create opportunities for growth and collaboration. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge! Timestamps   04:37 -The power of sharing ideas at water industry events. 08:13 - Water You Know with James McDonald 10:51 - Trace's love for procedures and his McDonald's experience. 16:49 - The importance of measuring processes for improvement. 28:28 - Steps to create and document a process. 46:27 - Closing thoughts: Processes bring fun and efficiency to the workplace. Quotes  “Because of my love of procedures, I've been able to create things and enlist the help of others to work collaboratively, ensuring we're all on the same page” - Trace Blackmore Connect with Scaling UP! H2O  Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/ YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind  398 Water Treatment Project Success: Essential Steps for New Facilities and Expansions  397 Pinks and Blues: How to look at your tests  Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: At atmospheric pressure, a pound or kilogram of water that is converted to steam will expand by approximately how many times? 2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Olympic high jump champion Hamish Kerr was named Sportsman of the Year, ahead of kayak cross Olympic gold medallist Finn Butcher, triathlete Hayden Wilde, footballer Chris Wood and the jockey James McDonald. Kerr spoke to Ingrid Hipkiss.

On today's episode, the Privacy Commissioner will now investigate whether Census and Covid-19 vaccination data shared with Manurewa Marae was misused for election purposes, Russia and the US have concluded their first direct talks since Moscow's invasion of Ukraine 3 years ago, and Olympic high jump champion Hamish Kerr was named Sportsman of the Year, ahead of kayak cross Olympic gold medallist Finn Butcher, triathlete Hayden Wilde, footballer Chris Wood and the jockey James McDonald.

Nick is joined by Racing Post senior writer Lee Mottershead to discuss the latest from around the racing world. On today's show - with Pic d'Orhy aiming to give him a first Grade One in a year - Paul Nicholls has fire in his belly as he assesses the strength of his team, new arrangements for sourcing his horses, and his competitive spirit being fuelled by "mini-me" Dan Skelton. Compelling stuff. Equally compelling is the interview with James McDonald about Romantic Warrior's bid to win the Saudi Cup. Plus, Godolphin's Alex Merriam on Rebel's Romance and the Amir Sword, QREC handicapper Neil Jennings on this weekend's action, and Guillermo Arrizkoreta - Spain's leading trainer - on conquering Dubai.

What if the moments we consider mundane or accidental hold the power to reshape our lives?  In this week's Scaling UP! H2O Podcast, we welcome back Adam Tank, water industry leader and author of Luck by Design. Known for his thought-provoking insights and transformational ideas, Adam takes us on a journey to uncover how intentionality and awareness can turn everyday moments into catalysts for success. Whether you're navigating career choices or striving for personal growth, this episode is your roadmap to designing the life you've always wanted. In this candid and engaging conversation, Adam shares the inspiration behind Luck by Design, a book that reveals how seemingly small moments—what he calls “catalyst moments”—can create a ripple effect of positive change. He opens up about his own transformative experiences, including a fateful missed bus stop in Rio that changed his career path forever. Through his stories, Adam challenges us to look closer at our own lives and recognize the opportunities hiding in plain sight. This episode reminds us that success isn't a matter of chance—it's a matter of choice. Whether it's writing a life-changing postcard, stepping out of your comfort zone, or simply taking a moment to reflect, small, intentional actions can create lasting impact. And as Adam's journey shows, the connections we nurture and the opportunities we embrace shape not just our lives, but the lives of those around us. Your next big opportunity might already be in front of you—it's up to you to see it, seize it, and act on it. In this episode, Adam Tank proves that designing your own success is less about waiting for luck and more about creating it. Are you ready to take charge of your moments? Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge! Timestamps  01:36 - Trace Blackmore shares Valentine's Day origin and learning takeaway 03:03 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals    07:09 - Interview with Adam Tank, co-founder and chief customer officer at Transcend, water industry leader and author of Luck by Design 27:16 - Adam discusses the "chapstick moment" and how small moments can lead to life-changing decisions 55:10 - Water You Know with James McDonald Quotes  "These catalyst moments have tremendous power to help you achieve remarkable things in life." – Adam Tank "The sum of your life is the quality of the relationships you build." – Adam Tank "It's not about what happens to you, but what you choose to do with it." – Adam Tank "A small act, like sending a postcard, can have ripple effects beyond what you can imagine." – Trace Blackmore Connect with Adam Tank Phone: 913-940-4381 Email: atank@transcendinfra.com Website: Transcend | Design Automation Software for Critical Infrastructure  ThinkTank | Adam Tank LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamtank/  Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide Guest Resources Mentioned   Luck By Design: The Science And Serendipity Of A Well-Lived Life by Adam Tank  Think And Grow Rich: The Secret To Wealth Updated For The 21st Century by Napoleon Hill  Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea  The Rising Tide Mastermind  001 A New Podcast for Water Treaters  181 The One Where Water Geeks Talk About Social Media  279 The One With the ‘Water We Talking About?' Hosts  343 Master Water Marketing with Adam Tank Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the proper regeneration sequence of operation for a co-current regenerated sodium zeolite softener system? 2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

Nick is joined by Racing Post senior writer Lee Mottershead to discuss the latest from around the racing world. On today's show - with Pic d'Orhy aiming to give him a first Grade One in a year - Paul Nicholls has fire in his belly as he assesses the strength of his team, new arrangements for sourcing his horses, and his competitive spirit being fuelled by "mini-me" Dan Skelton. Compelling stuff. Equally compelling is the interview with James McDonald about Romantic Warrior's bid to win the Saudi Cup. Plus, Godolphin's Alex Merriam on Rebel's Romance and the Amir Sword, QREC handicapper Neil Jennings on this weekend's action, and Guillermo Arrizkoreta - Spain's leading trainer - on conquering Dubai.

In this episode, Trace Blackmore and Mark T. Lewis, Certified Water Technologist of Southeastern Laboratories, Inc. dive into practical tips for managing your business effectively, particularly in the water treatment industry. They share eight essential strategies for mastering self-management, staying organized, adapting to challenges, and aligning personal goals with professional responsibilities. Mark highlights the importance of time management, account management, stress management, and personal development, offering actionable insights to help professionals navigate the challenges of managing their businesses while maintaining balance and efficiency.  Points to Highlight  Self-Management Skills: Learning to control your time, stress, and motivation is crucial for achieving business goals.  Account Management: Focus on building long-term relationships with clients instead of just acquiring new business.  Stress Management: Identifying and managing stress is key to maintaining productivity and motivation.  Adaptability: Flexibility is vital in handling unexpected changes and managing multiple priorities effectively.  Decision Making: Understand the long-term implications of your decisions before acting on them.  Goal Alignment: Make sure your daily tasks are aligned with your bigger business objectives for sustained growth.  Personal Development: Continuous learning and self-improvement are fundamental to business success.  Mentorship: Having a mentor or support system can help you grow personally and professionally.  Conclusion  Trace and Mark's insights in this episode give you the tools to tackle the complexities of business management head-on. Whether it's optimizing your time, managing client relationships, or staying motivated, these tips are designed to boost your efficiency and help you thrive. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge! Don't miss Part 2, where we'll dive deeper into additional strategies that will help you manage your business to new heights!  Timestamps  02:20 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals  05:15 – Water You Know with James McDonald 07:05 – Interview with Mark T. Lewis, Certified Water Technologies of Southeastern Laboratories Inc about strategies and tips on managing a business 14:56 – Importance of Time Management and Self-Management 17:11 – Stress management and staying motivated through challenges  Quotes  “End each day knowing that it was an improvement upon the last.” - Trace Blackmore "One of the skills that we've got to have is take what we have and run with it.” - Mark T.  Lewis  “If you're not managing your time, that's the only thing that you are never going to get back.” - Trace Blackmore  Connect with Mark Lewis  Phone: 704.322.5406 Email: MLewis@SELaboratories.com Website: https://www.selaboratories.com/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mark-lewis-01a3b56 Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide Guest Resources Mentioned   Drop by Drop: Articles on Industrial Water Treatment by James McDonald The NALCO Water Handbook, Fourth Edition by an Ecolab Company NALCO Water  Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Audible (free month with this link)  AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind 031 The One with Mark Lewis 034 The Other One With Mark Lewis, CWT 101 The One with Colin Frayne, CWT 102 The Other One with Colin Frayne, CWT 112 The One Where Trace Is Interviewed By Mark Lewis 149 The One About Some of the Lesser-Used Technologies The Speed of Trust by Stephen M.R. Covey   Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the typical percent bed expansion during a water softener backwash?   2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

Description:    In this Roofing Road Trips, Heidi J. Ellsworth sits down with James McDonald and Maureen Greeves of Weatherproofing Technologies Inc, a subsidiary of Tremco to talk about identifying talent for service and maintenance.  WTI is one of the leading companies in building envelop service and maintenance.  Known for their TremCare program that protects billions of square feet of roofing globally, WTI is constantly looking for talented service technicians.  This road trip will highlight the history and mission of WTI and how they approach attracting talent to the roofing industry, specifically for service and maintenance technicians.  These jobs are growing in popularity and an important part of the roofing industry's future.  Learn more at RoofersCoffeeShop.com! https://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/   Are you a contractor looking for resources? Become an R-Club Member today! https://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/rcs-club-sign-up   Sign up for the Week in Roofing! https://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/sign-up    Follow Us!   https://www.facebook.com/rooferscoffeeshop/   https://www.linkedin.com/company/rooferscoffeeshop-com   https://x.com/RoofCoffeeShop   https://www.instagram.com/rooferscoffeeshop/   https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAQTC5U3FL9M-_wcRiEEyvw   https://www.pinterest.com/rcscom/   https://www.tiktok.com/@rooferscoffeeshop   https://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/rss     #RoofersCoffeeShop #MetalCoffeeShop #AskARoofer #CoatingsCoffeeShop #RoofingProfessionals #RoofingContractors #RoofingIndustry 

What if you could help write the rules that keep us all safe?  In this episode, Trace Blackmore sits down with the passionate and highly knowledgeable Patsy Root, Senior Manager Government Affairs at IDEXX Water, to dive into the nitty-gritty of Legionella legislation. With a career fueled by her love of water—whether it's sailing, scuba diving, or protecting public health—Patsy brings an inspiring perspective to the table. She doesn't just talk about the problem; she's actively working to solve it. Here's what you'll get from this episode: The Current State of Legionella Legislation: Patsy provides a comprehensive overview of Legionella regulations across the U.S., Canada, and Europe. She dives into case studies comparing New York and Quebec as well as France and other European nations, highlighting the successes and challenges of their approaches. Scientific Insights into Legionella: Discover the biological complexity of Legionella, its various species, and why Legionella pneumophila stands out as the most significant threat. Learn why focusing on the right indicators is crucial for effective water management. Best Practices for Water Treaters and Lawmakers: Patsy shares actionable recommendations for water treaters to improve public health while maintaining cost-efficiency. From adopting ASHRAE 188 guidelines to advocating for better legislation, this episode is packed with practical advice. Proactive vs. Reactive: Ever wonder why so many water regulations only come after a crisis? Patsy talks about how the water treatment industry—and you—can help shift the conversation to prevention before it's too late. The Power of Collaboration: Patsy emphasizes the value of networking through industry committees like AWT's Legislative and Regulatory Committee and how collaboration fosters innovation and knowledge sharing. Practical Tips for Water Treaters: If you're a water treater looking to stay ahead of the game, Patsy shares actionable advice on how to implement cost-effective, efficient water management plans that actually protect public health.  The Bottom Line  This episode isn't just about rules—it's about solutions. Whether you're a water treater, a building manager, or just someone who wants to understand what's really in your water, Patsy's insights will change the way you think about managing risk. Your Next Move  Check out the Legionella Resources page at ScalingUpH2O.com for even more tools and insights from industry leaders. Share this episode with your team or clients to spark conversations that could save lives—and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Let's work together to build a safer, healthier future, one drop at a time. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!  Timestamps   03:04 - Trace announces a poll to assess the value of reading event details on the podcast and guides listeners to the events page on the website. 04:20 - Water You Know with James McDonald 05: 53 - Interview with Patsy Root, Senior Manager Government Affairs of IDEXX Water about Patsy's paper on global Legionella regulations and the importance of learning from international practices. 11:24 – Legionella Legislation Overview 39:49 - Practical Recommendations for Water Treater Quotes  “It is the best way to network and grow the community around you of subject matter experts - by volunteering.” - Patsy Root “What we need to do with each other is we need to understand where things are happening, what's happening, and how much of that we should consider leveraging - as best practice.” - Patsy Root  Connect with Patsy Root  Phone: 207-523-0835  Email: Patsy-root@IDEXX.COM  Website: https://www.idexx.com/en/water/   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/idexx-laboratories/   Guest Resources Mentioned   Data and Case Study of Effective Legionella Regulations by Patsy Root  NASEM's Management of Legionella in Water Systems (2019)  MD 15161 - 2013 Control of Legionella in Mechanical Systems Assessment of monitoring approaches to control Legionella pneumophila within a complex cooling tower system by Michele Prevost et al  The Legionella collagen-like protein employs a distinct binding mechanism for the recognition of host glycosaminoglycans by Garnett et al The 5 bacterial indicators used by WHO were published in 2013 by Dufour et al The 5 bacterial indicators used by WHO covered by KWR Publication starting on Page 54 – Section 7.4.4. Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind  348 Credentials and Codes: Plumbing Strategies Against Legionella  ASHRAE Guideline 12-2020: Managing the Risk of Legionellosis Associated with Building Water Systems  ASHRAE Standard 188-2018, Legionellosis: Risk Management for Building Water Systems (ANSI Approved) ASHRAE Standard-188-2021, Building Water Management Plans – Summary ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 514, Risk Management for Building Water Systems: Physical, Chemical, and Microbial Hazard Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the process called when you mathematically correct the impacts of changes in feedwater quality, temperature, and pressure on reverse osmosis membrane data as compared to a baseline?   2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Welcome to 2025! Episode 401 of the Scaling Up H2O Podcast is here to help you kick-start the new year with valuable insights, energy-saving tips, and strategies for personal and professional growth. Host Trace Blackmore explores how small changes, like switching to LED lighting or investing in solar power, can save energy and cut costs for National Cut Energy Costs Day. He also dives deep into effective planning methods, the importance of relationships, and how to maximize your potential in 2025. National Cut Energy Costs Day  Learn practical ways to reduce energy usage at home and work, from switching to LED lighting and upgrading HVAC systems to exploring solar power installations. Trace also shares how his team utilizes energy audits for increased efficiency. Planning for 2025 Success  Discover actionable strategies for effective planning, including prioritizing big goals (the "big rocks") and aligning your weekly schedule with your most important tasks. Nurturing Relationships for Long-Term Success  Trace shares heartfelt advice from his grandfather about the value of relationships and how they surpass everything else in importance. He encourages listeners to reflect on their roles and take actionable steps to improve their connections. This episode is packed with resources for water treatment professionals, including updates on AWT events, Certified Water Technologist (CWT) prep courses, and actionable tools to help you raise the bar in the water industry. Whether you're looking for tips to improve your work-life balance or stay ahead in your field, this episode is your comprehensive guide to success in 2025. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge! Timestamps:   05:20 - Trace Blackmore shares an Overview of National Cut Energy Costs Day and the importance of Conserving energy and water 21:32 - Water You Know with James McDonald 45:19 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals  Connect with Scaling UP! H2O  Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/ YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O  Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Audible (free month with this link) AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind 397 Pinks and Blues: How to look at your tests  394 Visibility and Value: Enhancing Sustainability in Water Treatment 360 Unlocking Profitable Sustainability: Winning RFPs and Making a Positive Impact 339 Jane Kucera's Reverse Osmosis Masterclass 363 Pricing Boost: Get Paid Well For Your Excellence 375 Legionella Awareness: Your Questions Answered by Trace Blackmore Big Rocks by Stephen R. Covey  Water You Know with James McDonald  Question: What is the approximate pH where phenolphthalein changes between pink and clear? 2025 Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

"Take a victory lap today and celebrate all the wonderful things you've done this year." – Trace Blackmore  In this milestone 400th episode, host Trace Blackmore l reflects on the podcast's incredible journey and the achievements of 2024. From personal accomplishments to listener engagement and standout episodes, this celebration highlights the growth of the Scaling UP! Nation. Scaling UP! H2O by the Numbers: What 2024 Taught Us  Trace shares how the podcast grew across countries like Australia, Ireland, and New Zealand while continuing to top charts on Apple and Spotify. Personal Triumphs: From Scuba Diving to Off-Roading Adventures  This year wasn't just about podcasting. Trace shares personal milestones, including certifying his 1,000th scuba diver, losing 20 pounds, and embracing off-roading adventures in his wife's Jeep. Behind the Mic: Guests, Stats, and Records  With 51 guests in 2024, 35% were women, and 65% were men. This diverse lineup included highlights like the Women of Water (Episode 380) and Legionella Awareness Month series. The podcast also broke a record with six guests in a single episode. From Legionella to Boilers: Most Shared Episodes of 2024  Episodes like Are Legionella Cases Truly on the Rise? (Episode 376) and Steam Boiler Essentials (Episodes 353 & 354) delivered actionable insights that sparked industry discussions. AWT Innovation Award: A Shared Honor This year, Scaling UP! H2O was honored with the 2024 AWT Innovation Award at the AWT Annual Conference. Recognizing the podcast's impact on advancing the water treatment industry, this award is a testament to the dedication of the Scaling UP! Nation. The Timeless Impact of Episode 179  Kathleen Edelman's Temperaments episode remains the most downloaded in podcast history, offering lasting lessons on improving communication and relationships. The Scaling UP! Nation Community: More Than a Podcast  More than a podcast, Scaling UP! H2O is a movement driven by its listeners. With 10,000 LinkedIn followers and a growing global presence, the Scaling UP! Nation continues to make waves in the water treatment industry. A Look Ahead: What's Next for 2025  Trace teases what's to come, including new contributions from James MacDonald and an even greater focus on delivering high-quality content for water treatment professionals. Powered by Our Partners: Sponsors Who Believe in the Mission  This podcast thrives thanks to sponsors who believe in its mission. Their support ensures the production of valuable, high-quality episodes. Here's to the Next Chapter, Together  Trace thanks everyone who made this milestone possible, celebrating 400 episodes as a shared achievement with the Scaling UP! Nation. Together, we're shaping the future of water treatment.  And as always, we're scaling up knowledge, so we don't scale up our systems. Timestamps:   01:10 - Trace reflects on the podcast's journey, shares gratitude for the Scaling UP! Nation, and highlights achievements while offering forward-looking insights. 04:25 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals  08:39 – Trace shares his personal milestones from 2024 09:22 – Drop by Drop with James McDonald 14:49 – Trace delivers the Podcast Highlights of 2024 43:44 - Gratitude for Sponsors, Guests, and Listeners 45:18 – A Look Ahead to 2025 46:21 – Episode Wrap-Up and New Year Wishes Connect with Scaling UP! H2O Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/ YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses The Rising Tide Mastermind  World Vision Global 6k  001 A New Podcast for Water Treaters 179 Another One that Teaches Us to Communicate Better with Others  348 Credentials and Codes: Plumbing Strategies Against Legionella  350 Polymer Perspectives: Understanding Copolymer Innovations in Water Treatment  351 Maximizing Water's Potential: Tech and Water Treaters in Perfect Harmony  353 Steam Boilers: Essential Checks, Part 1  354 Steam Boilers: Essential Checks, Part 2  355 Backflow Prevention: Safeguarding Water Quality  376 Are Legionella Cases Truly on the Rise? Insights on Legionella Trends and Prevention  380 The WOW Effect: Women Leading Transformation in the Water Industry  390 Multimeter Troubleshooting: Your Guide to Accurate Diagnostics, Part 1  391 Multimeter Troubleshooting: Your Guide to Accurate Diagnostics, Part 2  Drop by Drop with James In today's episode, I have a quote. The quote is, “The lines are painted wrong.” Who said that and what did this person mean?  That was my Dad. He used to tell us that as kids. You see, my Dad took pride in his driving abilities, and when he would not park the straightest in a parking space, we kids would take great delight in pointing it out to him. His reply was always, “The lines are painted wrong.” Oddly enough, we LOVED this answer! We would argue back, “No they aren't! You parked crooked!” He would just shake his head, smile, and calmly insist, “The lines are painted wrong.” In my career as an industrial water treatment professional, this quote has always stuck with me. There are most certainly times when the lines are painted wrong. The control ranges may be wrong, too tight, or too broad. The lines are painted wrong. The expectations from a client or manager may be unrealistic. The lines are painted wrong. The finger often gets pointed at the water treatment professional first when things go wrong with water-related equipment, even when it's not our fault. The lines are painted wrong. While it would not have been appropriate for my Dad to repaint the lines in a parking lot, it can be appropriate for us to repaint the lines at times in industrial water treatment. Control ranges can be appropriately adjusted. Expectations can be diplomatically realigned. Blame can be diffused or redirected with listening, discussion, facts, and patience. Sometimes, it takes a little thinking outside the box to realize when the lines are painted wrong. I have my Dad to thank for helping me see this at such a young age, and I can't wait to tell him that now tens of thousands of people have just learned from him, too.   Events for Water Professionals Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Having a product does not mean it's going to work well. Having a product and having the experience to use it properly, that's the determining factor. - Trace Blackmore  Dive into one of Trace Blackmore's favorite formats: the "Pinks and Blues" episode! In this special installment, Trace tackles real-world questions from water treatment professionals like you, offering clear, practical solutions rooted in chemistry, strategy, and years of experience. From mastering serial dilutions to making the most of leftover competitor products, this episode is all about equipping you with the tools to excel in your field. Managing Leftover Competitor Products in Accounts  Trace discusses the common challenge of customers asking water treatment professionals to use leftover chemicals they've already paid for. He highlights the risks of taking these products back to your facility, including potential costly disposal fees, and provides practical advice on how to manage and utilize these products effectively on-site.  Serial Dilution: Explanation and Equation  Trace introduces the dilution formula C1 × V1 = C2 × V2, a fundamental equation for performing accurate dilutions. He provides a detailed, step-by-step guide to creating dilutions in both lab and field settings, enabling water treatment professionals to test and effectively utilize mystery products left behind by competitors.   Importance of Deionized (DI) Water in Test Kits  Trace explains the critical role of DI water in performing accurate dilutions and removing interferences during tests. He emphasizes the necessity of always carrying sufficient DI water in the field for tasks like dilutions, triple rinsing equipment, and managing high-concentration samples. Ensuring DI water availability is key to maintaining clean and reliable testing processes. Testing Mystery Products  Trace recommends testing mystery products for key components such as phosphate (total, organic, and inorganic) and Azol levels to determine their composition. Use the product's safety data sheet (SDS) or similar documentation to identify expected ranges and compare test results. These insights help calculate appropriate dosages and ensure effective usage of leftover products. Benefits of Proper Product Management Using leftover chemicals on-site provides several key advantages:  Cost Savings: Eliminates expensive disposal fees for unused products. Customer Satisfaction: Reduces customer expenses by utilizing materials they've already paid for.  Sustainability: Promotes greener practices by minimizing waste and maximizing resource efficiency. Professional Growth: Savings from proper management can support funding for training, certifications, and industry conferences, contributing to career development opportunities. Be Part of the Discussion We want to hear from you! Your contributions help shape the Scaling Up H2O podcast and make it even more valuable for the community.  Submit Questions & Feedback: Your input drives our content. Send us your questions to be featured in future episodes.  Share Your Success Stories: Let us know how this episode has helped you improve your water treatment practice or solve a challenging problem. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge! Timestamps: 07: 25 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals 12:24 - Trace answers listener questions about managing leftover competitor products in water treatment accounts 15:32 – Trace explains Serial Dilution: Step-by-Step Guide 45:23 - Drop by Drop with James McDonald  Connect with Scaling UP! H2O Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/scalinguph2o/ YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned Audible (free month with this link) AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses The Rising Tide Mastermind 12 Week Year: Get More Done in 12 Weeks than Others Do in 12 Months by Brian P. Moran & Michael Lennington Drop by Drop with James In today's episode, I have a challenge for you. The challenge is…check your safety equipment. Seriously, check the condition as well as any expiration dates. I personally was shocked to find out that hard hats have an expiration date on them, but they do. It does make sense, though, because plastic can get brittle over time, especially sitting in a hot vehicle. Brittle plastic probably won't protect your noggin as well as it should. Are your safety glasses all scratched up or dirty? Do they obstruct your view? Do you wear your earplugs more than once, and do they need to be replaced? How about your steel-toed shoes, face shields, aprons, gloves, and other safety equipment? Will they protect you when you need them to? Take this challenge as your excuse to inspect them all and replace them as needed. Your family, friends, colleagues, Trace, and I all want you to be safe as you practice the noble profession of industrial water treatment!  Events for Water Professionals Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"Don't be afraid to ask questions early and often when working with engineering firms or general contractors on your water treatment program... Getting it right the first time is the easiest and least painful way to a long-term successful water treatment program." – Walker Burnette In this episode of the Scaling Up H2O podcast, host Trace Blackmore sits down with Walker Burnette, Water Treatment Consultant at Southeastern Laboratories to explore the importance of early involvement in water treatment projects for new and expanding facilities. Together, they uncover essential lessons, challenges, and best practices that can make or break long-term success in industrial water management.   A Chance Encounter That Sparked a Career  Walker Burnette's journey into the water treatment industry began unexpectedly when he reconnected with Steve Tuning, a lifelong family friend and his father's college roommate, at his former workplace. This chance meeting led to a conversation that launched his career in water treatment. Now, Walker's former employer has become his client, showcasing the unique blend of personal history and professional growth that shaped his path.  Bridging Water Treatment Gaps in Construction  Walker Burnette addresses the common oversight of water treatment during new and expanded construction projects. In North Carolina's fast-growing landscape, Walker has seen firsthand how rushed timelines can lead to missed steps in planning. Sharing lessons from successes and pitfalls, this discussion aims to highlight essential practices to ensure water treatment is prioritized and integrated effectively from the start.  What steps do you take to set yourself up for success in the bid process?  Walker Burnette emphasizes the importance of understanding a facility's unique requirements when bidding on water treatment projects. Recognizing that each system may need specialized solutions, he advises focusing on value rather than competing solely on price. While not every bid will be successful, prioritizing quality and comprehensive proposals leads to long-term success and better client outcomes.  Why do you need to have relationships with people?  Walker Burnette highlights that building strong relationships is key in the competitive world of water treatment project bidding. Helping clients understand the value behind different approaches can set you apart. When clients receive various bids, confusion can arise about the differing strategies. Having a trusted relationship allows you to step in, clarify the benefits, and guide them through making an informed decision. Establishing a reputation with engineering firms and past collaborators can often lead to winning projects for the right reasons—trust and proven expertise. Prioritizing Communication for Water Treatment Success  Clear communication and proactive planning in water treatment projects is essential. He recommends reviewing P&IDs (Piping and Instrument Diagrams) early to find cost-saving opportunities and streamline processes. Staying engaged throughout the project ensures inspections and coordination, preventing last-minute issues and promoting smooth execution.  Checklist for Water Treatment Project Planning and Execution:  1. Identify System to be Treated: List systems requiring treatment and needed equipment/chemicals.  2. Verify Lead Times: Confirm equipment lead times and communicate any delays to the end user.  3. Set Project Timelines: Track key delivery dates and installation milestones.  4. Plan for Pipe Cleaning/Passivation: Ensure pipes are flushed or treated before startup to avoid issues.  5. Communicate with Stakeholders/End Users: Keep the end user informed and ensure all steps are completed for a smooth project launch.  The Critical Step of Passivation  Passivation is presented as one of the most important phases of commissioning new systems. Walker and Trace discuss why passivation is often overlooked, the consequences of skipping it, and how to effectively advocate for this essential step.   Considering All Stakeholders and EH&S in Water Treatment Projects  Understanding the needs of all stakeholders, including engineers, contractors, operators, and end-users, is essential in water treatment projects. Involving the Department of Environmental Health and Safety (EH&S) early ensures chemicals are compatible, stored correctly, and disposed of safely. Walker emphasizes addressing these considerations from the start positions water treatment professionals as proactive consultants, avoiding last-minute issues and disruptions to project timelines.  Integrating New Equipment in Existing Facilities  Adding new equipment to an existing facility requires careful planning. Unlike new buildings, end-user involvement is higher as the facility is already operational. He stresses that new systems often need isolation and separate treatment before integration, as simply connecting and activating them can lead to issues. Proper preparation and communication are key to successful integration.  Join the Conversation  Have any thoughts on today's episode? Join the Scaling Up H2O community by sharing your experiences and insights on proactive water treatment. Connect with us on LinkedIn, share your takeaways, or join the discussion on industry challenges and best practices.  Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!  Timestamps:    01:30 - Trace Blackmore shares discussion on Friday the 13th superstitions and their origins, including historical and cultural references. 05:05 – Trace Blackmore's encouragement to review lessons from 2024 and plan for 2025, mentioning Brian Moran's “12 Week Year” 07:09 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals  09:25 - Interview with Walker Burnette, Water Treatment Consultant at Southeastern Laboratories about water treatment considerations during new and existing facility constructions, and the importance of early involvement in the planning process. 50:57 - Drop by Drop with James McDonald  Quotes  "Passivation might be one of the most important parts of starting up your water treatment systems—it ensures the longevity and proper function of your equipment." – Walker Burnette "The only person we can fix is ourselves. It's easy to blame externally, but we need to ask the right questions and guide our customers to success." – Trace Blackmore "Being proactive and communicating effectively is key. When you're adaptable, you're more equipped to lead projects to success rather than being a reactive passenger." – Walker Burnette "Learning to have hard conversations with customers is a difficult skill, but once you do, you'll never regret it." – Walker Burnette  Connect with Walker Burnette  Phone: 336.207.7086  Email: wburnette@selaboratories.com  Website: https://www.selaboratories.com/   Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/walker-burnette-cwt-57076465/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/southeastern-laboratories-inc-/   Read or Download Walker Burnette's Press Release HERE  Guest Resources Mentioned   Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter  Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned  Audible (free month with this link) AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea The Rising Tide Mastermind  12 Week Year: Get More Done in 12 Weeks than Others Do in 12 Months by Brian P. Moran & Michael Lennington  Drop by Drop with James In today's episode, I'm on my soapbox. My soapbox topic is…conductivity versus TDS…or Total Dissolved Solids. You might have expected something a little meatier, but conductivity and TDS are often used interchangeably. FAR too often they are. They are NOT the same thing though. Conductivity and TDS may be RELATED, but they measure two COMPLETELY different things. Conductivity measures the ability of a water solution to conduct an electrical current. It is quick and easily automated, only requiring a conductivity probe and a meter. Total Dissolved Solids or TDS, on the other hand, is the concentration of dissolved solids in a water solution. Measuring the TDS requires evaporating a volume of water to dryness and weighing the solids that remain. TDS takes a lot more time and labor to perform than a conductivity test.  So how are conductivity and TDS related? The conductivity of water is determined by the type and concentration of dissolved solids. Low TDS solutions typically have lower conductivities. High TDS solutions typically have higher conductivities. There can be a relationship between the two. If the water quality is consistent, conductivity can provide a practical way to monitor the TDS, but this relationship should be verified regularly.  Some may be thinking, “But my handheld meter displays the answer in TDS. What gives?” Your handheld meter is doing math internally to convert from conductivity, which is measuring, to TDS. It is not ACTUALLY measuring TDS. As a rule of thumb in the industrial water samples we often see, the actual TDS is typically 65-75% of the measured conductivity. This can vary, however, depending upon the ions in the water. Events for Water Professionals  Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

Dr. James McDonald, Commissioner of the New York State Department of Health, discusses substance misuse and overdose prevention as part of ASTHO's Legislative Prospectus series; Dr. Lindsey Kato, Director for the Division of Public Health with the State of Alaska, tells us about the journey for accreditation from the Public Health Accreditation Board; and PHIG has its own newsletter now. ASTHO Web Page: Substance Misuse and Overdose Prevention ASTHO Blog Article: Alaska Division of Public Health's Accreditation Success PHIG Newsletter  

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG   JULIE ROYS  00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.   JULIE ROYS  00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.   DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.   JULIE ROYS  03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.   DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too.   JULIE ROYS  03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?   DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,   JULIE ROYS  04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and  say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.   JULIE ROYS  05:45 So what would you say fruit is?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.   JULIE ROYS  06:10 And yet, so often it is true  when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?   DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.   JULIE ROYS  06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?   DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.   JULIE ROYS  08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction.   DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd,  the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it  feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him.   JULIE ROYS  10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain  about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What  responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better?   DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit.   JULIE ROYS  12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read  those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh  when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused.   DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either.   JULIE ROYS  13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it.   JULIE ROYS  14:53 Blame it on the Lord.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable.   JULIE ROYS  15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I  reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody?   DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side.   JULIE ROYS  16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor  in court to say that.   DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do.   JULIE ROYS  17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and  you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it.   DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but  we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots.   DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does –  rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run.   JULIE ROYS  20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw  some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think  we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them?   DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth.   JULIE ROYS  22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either.   DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I  know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were.   JULIE ROYS  22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people  as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and  we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do.   JULIE ROYS  24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned,  but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. ,   DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God.   JULIE ROYS  25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal.   DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run .   JULIE ROYS  25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent.   JULIE ROYS  26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed?   DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding.   JULIE ROYS  28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does  to protect  their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe.   DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever.   JULIE ROYS  30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and  I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and  how it  exists and how it works.   DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that,  the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer  and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer.   JULIE ROYS  32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these.   DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money.   JULIE ROYS  32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and  to bring the big crowds,  or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period .   JULIE ROYS  33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:46  He certainly deserved it, right?   JULIE ROYS  33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow.   DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God.   JULIE ROYS  34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope?   DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten  inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself?   JULIE ROYS  36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say  the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians.   DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty,   JULIE ROYS  38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there?   DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna  react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right.   JULIE ROYS  41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world  and through that, we become different people. We become,  I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more  enjoyable companions for him.   DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it.   JULIE ROYS  42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though  we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was  a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you.   DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you..   JULIE ROYS  43:19 Thank you.   JULIE ROYS  43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Dr. Geeta Sood joins Department of Health Commissioner Dr. James McDonald and Executive Deputy Commissioner Johanne Morne to discuss the growing public health concern of Long COVID, highlighting the need for comprehensive care and ongoing research.They explore the diverse range of symptoms associated with Long COVID, from brain fog to POTS, and the need for a comprehensive, multidisciplinary approach to management and care. The conversation also covers the effects of vaccination and antiviral therapies, such as Paxlovid, in helping to reduce the risk of developing Long COVID after a COVID-19 infection.The Department of Health will also be holding a Commissioner's Medical Grand Rounds on Long COVID on October 13, 2024 at noon - you must register to attend: https://forms.office.com/g/Eus28gsTfkIf you have an idea for topics we should discuss, please let us know: PublicHealthNowPodcast@health.ny.gov

WARC's Alex Brownsell and James Mcdonald talk about the key takeaways from the latest Advertising Association/WARC Expenditure Report. Discussing why UK adspend is growing, which categories are doing the best, and how the UK compares to some international markets.Stay up-to-date with the latest marketing and advertising news with our free daily newsletter.

In this episode, Why we won't be going to the Everest again. Manchester United part ways with Erik Ten Hag, but who will be next in charge? Rodri wins the ballon d'Or not after some controversy. Was Vini robbed? EPL match day 10 preview & A-League predictions. Bin list - Booking fees on everything you buy , Zac Lomax wanting to play centre when he's the best winger in the comp, using a public toilets straight after someone else, constantly reopening the fridge to find food that's not there & James McDonald fine for celebrating before the winning post. Listener questions - Is FIFA 25 the worst one yet & what's next for Hollaway & Whittaker? Make sure you follow @costalsportspod to keep up to date. (0:00) Intro (4:15) Why we won't be going back to the Everest (9:40) Erik Ten Hag sacking (20:48) Rodri wins the Ballon d'Or (29:49) EPL match day 10 preview (38:25) A-League predictions (41:56) Bin list (48:11) Is Fifa 25 the worst one yet (49:57) What's next for Hollaway & Whittaker (52:33) Using a public toilet straight after someone else (54:33) Constantly reopening the fridge to find food that's not there. (56:37) James McDonald fine for celebrating before the winning post

We continue our in-depth conversation with Tom Tinney, Product Specialist and equipment guru at AquaPhoenix Scientific diving deeper into the technical aspects of multimeter troubleshooting. This episode is packed with practical tips designed to help you navigate the often-confusing world of diagnostics and electrical troubleshooting. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just getting started, Tom's hands-on advice will guide you through common troubleshooting challenges so you can improve your accuracy and efficiency in the field. Missed Part 1? No worries! You can catch up on Episode 390 to get the foundation before diving into this advanced discussion. How Can You Avoid Fake Signals? Ever wonder why you're getting water meter readings when the system isn't running? Tom breaks it down. If low-voltage sensor wires run too close to high-voltage AC wires, electrical interference can mimic a water meter signal, leading to fake readings. Pro tip: Keep the wires separated by at least 12 inches, and if they must cross, do so at a 90-degree angle. "Running them through the same conduit isn't just a bad idea; it's a code violation," Tom advises. The Troubleshooting Tool, You Didn't Know You Needed: A Paperclip That's right—Tom channels his inner MacGyver with this simple tool. "When I troubleshoot, I always bring paper clips," he shares. They're perfect for quick fixes, especially when dealing with short circuits or stripped wires. How Long Can a Conduit Run Be on a Water Meter? Tom recommends keeping conduit runs short and efficient: ● Water meters: up to 1,000 feet ● Conductivity sensors: 200 feet max ● Amplified pH sensors: up to 1,000 feet ● Non-amplified pH sensors: Stick to 20 feet or less for optimal performance. Pro Tip: Save Your Multimeter's Battery Life You don't need to keep your meter on "Resistance" all the time. Switching it to Volts AC, Volts DC, or simply turning it off can extend your battery life significantly. Troubleshooting with the Experts: Top 4 Calls Tom Tinney shares the top troubleshooting calls he receives: The 1575 Controller Mystery ● Issue: Controller reset every time the relay activated. ● Fix: A simple switch adjustment from 230V to 115V solved the issue. The Miswired Outlet ● Problem: Controller shutting off when a relay turned on. ● Fix: Rewriting the outlet, which had reversed hot and neutral wires. Destroyed Chlorine Sensor ● Issue: Excessive flow and pressure destroyed the sensor.  ● Lesson: Always stick to the manufacturer's guidelines and communicate them clearly to plumbers and electricians. Competing Controllers Failing ● Issue: Controllers from different manufacturers failing simultaneously. ● Fix: The culprit was a faulty sensor and excessive aeration. Who Should Be Using Remote Communications? While it may seem logical to apply remote communications to your highest-value accounts, Tom suggests starting with smaller ones. Remote communication technology can save time and money by allowing you to troubleshoot remotely, and the investment often pays off with just one saved trip a year. Troubleshooting Leaks in an MPT Thread When it comes to troubleshooting leaks in an MPT Thread, maintenance is key. First, make sure you clean your sensors at least once a season, or even more frequently, similar to how you maintain a cooling tower. When replacing the boiler sensor in an MPT Thread (an angled thread going into an angled pipe), don't screw it in until it "clicks"—this can cause leaks. Instead, tighten the sensor by hand. Once it's snug, use a wrench to turn it only ½ to ¾ of a turn more. If you've already got a leak, chances are you've overtightened it. Don't try to fix a leak by cranking it tighter—at that point, you've already gone too far. The Blackmore Method This formula answers the age-old question: How do I know what to set my biocide pre-bleed on? If you know the system volume, incoming makeup water conductivity, and how much you evaporate every minute, this equation will tell you exactly what to set your pre-bleed to: A Fun Fact: The Cooling Tower Scene in Die Hard Did you know? The blue box with the two dials on the wall in the Die-Hard cooling tower scene was one of Tom's old controllers! Tom even tracked down the Fox Studios building manager and discovered that it was there from 1988 through 2012. How cool is that? Timestamps 02:07 - Trace Blackmore reminds you about our free Events for Water Treatment Professionals page on our website. It's a comprehensive list of all the events our team is aware of for water professionals to attend in the USA and around the world. Don't wait, scale up your knowledge today by attending a conference in the upcoming months. 03:15 - The Hang is happening on November 14, 2024: a free zoom networking event for water professionals 05:40 - Tom Tinney, Product Specialist and equipment guru at AquaPhoenix Scientific continues his talk on Troubleshooting Multimeters 01:04:35 - Drop by Drop with James McDonald  Connect with Tom Tinney Phone: +1 469 999 8603 Email: pir8@tomtinney.com Website: https://www.aquaphoenixsci.com/ LinkedIn: Tom Tinney  Links Mentioned Episode 003 Controllers with Tom Tinney 390 Multimeter Troubleshooting: Your Guide to Accurate Diagnostics, Part 1 Industrial Water Week Resources Page Multimeter Assorted Fuses box 5 X 20 Resistance Substitution Decade Box pH/ORP Simulator 4-20mA Simulator to simulate Pyxis Fluke Meter with Frequency Complete Panel Systems Test Kits Dragon Con, The Dragon Award The Rising Tide Mastermind Books and Movies Mentioned Die Hard 5-Movie Collection starring Bruce Willis (Christmas is around the corner, folks) Path of Tyrants (Backyard Starship) by J.N. Chaney and  Terry Maggert Son of the Black Sword (1) (Saga of the Forgotten Warrior) by Larry Correia Tower of Silence (Saga of the Forgotten Warrior Book 4) by Larry Correia Eat That Frog!: 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian Tracy Quick Throttle Magazine 1997 The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin by Benjamin Franklin Blood of Invidia: Maestru Series Book 1 by Tom Tinney & Morgen Batten Threads: Book One of the "Fabric of the Universe" by Tom Tinney The Future is Short: Science Fiction in a Flash by Carrol Fix  Visions II: Moons of Saturn by Tom Tinney The Future is Short - Volume 2: Science Fiction in a Flash by Jot Russell Drop By Drop with James  In today's episode, we're thinking about chlorine chemistry and the Reservoir Effect.  Have you heard this phrase before? The Reservoir Effect? In the debate between which is a better biocide at higher pHs, chlorine or bromine, the Reservoir Effect is an important concept to consider. When sodium hypochlorite, chlorine gas, or even calcium hypochlorite mixes with water, the target product they produce is hypochlorous acid or HOCl. This hypochlorous acid is subject to a dissociation which converts some of it to the hypochlorite ion or OCl-, which is a weaker biocide than hypochlorous acid. The pH of the water has a major impact upon how much this dissociation happens. That's at the heart of the whole chlorine versus bromine debate because the chlorine chemistry dissociates more at a lower pH than bromine does. This means more hypochlorous acid is converted to the weaker hypochlorite ion at a lower pH than hypobromous acid is converted to the hypobromite ion at the same pH. This concept is used to justify using bromine chemistry at higher pHs versus chlorine. But is this argument as simple as this? I propose that the Reservoir Effect muddies the waters a bit. I just talked about how the hypochlorous acid dissociates to the weaker hypochlorite ion. This dissociation between the two is a very tight and fast ratio. It's an equilibrium reaction. As soon as the hypochlorous acid is consumed in the battle against unwanted microbiological activity, some of the weaker hypochlorite ions are quickly converted BACK to the stronger hypochlorous acid form. This is the Reservoir Effect because even though the hypochlorite ion is weaker, it is waiting there to turn back into the stronger hypochlorous acid very quickly when needed. Sort of like the Incredible Hulk. Bruce Banner is the mild-mannered hypochlorite ion just going about his day, but when push comes to shove, he bulks up and turns green…although green isn't a good thing in a cooling tower, but you get the point. Now, there are certainly many other factors when comparing chlorine chemistry to other alternatives in a cooling water system, but the Reservoir Effect is one that I don't think many people know about nor consider. Think about it. Events for Water Professionals Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

In this episode, New York Commissioner of Health Dr. James McDonald and Executive Deputy Commissioner Johanne Morne welcome Dr. Erin Bell, the new dean of the UAlbany College of Integrated Health Sciences, to discuss the strategic merger of the School of Public Health and the School of Social Welfare, creating a groundbreaking interdisciplinary approach to addressing community health and well-being.The conversation delves into Dr. Bell's passion for community engagement and her vision for the new college, where students and faculty work hand-in-hand with local communities to identify and address their unique health and social needs. The new college, which includes over 1,000 students, aims to address health disparities through interdisciplinary approaches.If you have an idea for topics we should discuss, please let us know: PublicHealthNowPodcast@health.ny.gov

In our latest episode, we had the pleasure of welcoming back Tom Tinney, Product Specialist and equipment guru at AquaPhoenix Scientific. Tom shared invaluable insights into troubleshooting multimeters—an essential tool every water professional should have on hand during site visits. Here are some key takeaways from our discussion that you won't want to miss! Why You Need a Multimeter: An Essential Tool for Your Kit Tom emphasized the importance of carrying a multimeter. “This is the tool that checks the controller to ensure you're delivering your products and services on site while you're not there. If you need to check its health or troubleshoot, you need a multimeter.” Even a $12 model will suffice, so you won't stress about leaving it behind. This handy device can save you time and reduce anxiety, especially if it's misplaced. Troubleshooting Power Issues: More Than Just Fuses A common scenario Tom encounters is technicians reporting that their controller is powered on but has no output. While it may seem like a blown fuse isn't the issue, controllers often have separate fuses for the relays. With your multimeter, you can quickly check for voltage on either side of the fuse. If one side shows voltage and the other doesn't, it indicates a blown fuse. Tom's golden rule for troubleshooting fuses? Always bring three with you because “troubleshooting with fuses always takes three fuses, no matter what.” After replacing a blown fuse, check if the controller powers up correctly or if the issue lies with the connected equipment. Be Prepared: Stock Your Toolbox Tom recommends keeping spare fuses in the exact size you need in your toolbox. With fewer Radio Shacks around, it's essential to think ahead and replenish your supply. By having a fuse kit, you can avoid multiple service calls, saving both time and effort. When your fuse count dips below three, make sure to restock! The Art of Checking Fuses: Don't Be Deceived! Sometimes, a wire may appear intact. To check for functionality, Tom suggests using the resistance setting on your multimeter. This method can confirm whether the fuse is operational. Listen for the reliable beep, indicating that current is flowing correctly. When checking fuses, ensure you're measuring both sides for voltage. If it's absent, the fuse is blown. To confirm functionality, you can also switch your multimeter to resistance mode. If it beeps when touching the fuse leads, it's still conducting properly; if not, the fuse is blown. Checking Conductivity Sensors Tom provided insights on verifying whether a conductivity sensor is functioning correctly. By measuring the AC voltage at the sensor tips, you can determine if it's working as intended. Remember, maintaining clean sensor tips is crucial for accurate readings—avoid using sandpaper Instead, use a loose-bristle steel brush to remove any buildup. Conductivity Sensors Gone Bad Many users may regret learning how easily a multimeter can troubleshoot issues with conductivity sensors. Tom noted that when sensors are returned for warranty claims, they're often covered with white residue but still work perfectly fine 99% of the time after cleaning. If you want to learn how to clean them properly, he's more than willing to share his expertise. The Tom Tinney Approved Method for Cleaning a Conductivity Probe Instead of sanding the carbon tip of a conductivity sensor, Tom recommends using a loose-bristle steel brush. This method effectively removes crusty buildup without damaging the sensor. After brushing, soak it in a 10% sulfuric acid, 1% murratic, or if you have time, you can even use a CLR solution to dissolve any remaining scale. Rinse thoroughly, then use isopropyl alcohol to eliminate any oily residues. “After you put it back in your system, you will be majorly impressed with the operation of that sensor!” shares Tom. Understanding the Difference: Carbon Tips vs. Toroidal Probes When comparing carbon tips to toroidal probes, it's crucial to understand their design and functionality differences. Carbon Tips: Carbon tips are made from powdered carbon compressed under high pressure in a mold, creating a porous structure that allows water to flow through. When water pressure exceeds 140 PSI, it passes through the carbon like a sieve, enabling it to travel up the rod and into the sensor via a wire sheath. This design ensures optimal performance but limits the operational pressure to 140 PSI. Toroidal Probes: In contrast, toroidal probes operate differently. They use two wire coils as transformers, generating a small alternating current signal without direct contact with the water. The water's conductivity affects the signal strength between the coils. As a result, these sensors require less frequent cleaning since they are less prone to fouling compared to carbon tips. Additionally, toroidal sensors excel in high-salinity environments, making them suitable for applications involving seawater or other salty waters. Not so salty? Then users typically revert to two-tip or four-tip conductivity sensors. Tune in next week to Scaling UP! H2O as we continue with part 2 of this crucial topic of troubleshooting multimeters. Timestamps 01:00 - Trace Blackmore reflects on Industrial Water Week 08:30 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals 12:00 - Drop by Drop with James McDonald 16:00 - Catching up with returning guest Tom Tinney, Product Specialist and equipment guru at AquaPhoenix Scientific 27:00 Tom Tinney talks Troubleshooting Multimeters Tom Tinney Quotes “Troubleshooting with fuses always takes 3 fuses, no matter what.” “There is a proper way to clean conductivity sensors and if you're not doing it, shame on you, and if you want to learn it, we can talk about it.” “I don't care who you are. There's a little scale building up on that sensor all the time.” “You never go above one hundred and forty PSI with a carbon-based sensor” Connect with Tom Tinney Phone: +1 469-999-8603 Email: pir8@tomtinney.com Website: https://www.aquaphoenixsci.com/ LinkedIn: Tom Tinney Read or Download Tom Tinney's Press Release HERE Links Mentioned The Rising Tide Mastermind Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses Submit a Show Idea AWT (Association of Water Technologies) Episode 003 Controllers with Tom Tinney Industrial Water Week Resources Page Multimeter Assorted Fuses box 5 X 20 Resistance Substitution Decade Box pH/ORP Simulator 4-20mA Simulator to simulate Pyxis Fluke Meter with Frequency Complete Panel Systems Test Kits Books Mentioned Blood of Invidia: Maestru Series Book 1 by Tom Tinney & Morgen Batten Threads: Book One of the "Fabric of the Universe" by Tom Tinney The Future is Short: Science Fiction in a Flash by Carrol Fix Visions II: Moons of Saturn by Tom Tinney The Future is Short - Volume 2: Science Fiction in a Flash by Jot Russell  Drop By Drop with James  In today's episode, I'm thinking about sodium hypochlorite and temperature. How does temperature impact the strength and shelf life of industrial-strength sodium hypochlorite or bleach? As we all know and witness, our industrial water treatment chemicals are not all stored in temperature-controlled environments. Some are stored in hot boiler rooms, cold sheds, or outside directly in the sunlight during summer months. When it comes to sodium hypochlorite, though, how can the temperature in these various storage conditions impact it? One article I've seen says that for every 18 F increase in temperature (that would be 10 C), the decomposition rate of bleach is increased by a factor of 3.5! That means at 77 F or 25 C, the half-life of a 12.5% solution is 180 days. For 95 F or 35 C, the half-life drops significantly to only 48 days! Would knowing this impact the quantity of sodium hypochlorite you store on site during warmer months? Would knowing this explain any issues you've had with microbiological control? Think about it. It's a hot topic Events for Water Professionals Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE. 

Nick, in California, is joined by Daily Mirror Newsboy (6 out of 7 at Newmarket Sat) David Yates to discuss the latest news from around the racing world. First up today, 4-time Breeders' Cup Classic winning legend Mike Smith gives Nick the lowdown on his California Crown winner Subsanador, and tells us why he is no hurry to hang up his boots at the age of 58. Also today, Nick and Dave review the excellent action from Newmarket's Cambridgeshire meeting, and begin the build up to this weekend's Arc, which could yet feature Auguste Rodin. With that horse's imminent retirement announced Friday, Nick catches up with Coolmore's Mark Byrne to discuss what he'll bring to the stallion roster. Co-trainer Amanda Zetterholm reflects on star steeplechaser Il Est Francais's sparkling comeback win, while Aussie star James McDonald looks back on another Group One triumph, this time on Cox Plate fancy Broadsiding at Rosehill, and gives Nick his views on Romantic Warrior running in the key Middle Eastern races next spring.

Nick, in California, is joined by Daily Mirror Newsboy (6 out of 7 at Newmarket Sat) David Yates to discuss the latest news from around the racing world. First up today, 4-time Breeders' Cup Classic winning legend Mike Smith gives Nick the lowdown on his California Crown winner Subsanador, and tells us why he is no hurry to hang up his boots at the age of 58. Also today, Nick and Dave review the excellent action from Newmarket's Cambridgeshire meeting, and begin the build up to this weekend's Arc, which could yet feature Auguste Rodin. With that horse's imminent retirement announced Friday, Nick catches up with Coolmore's Mark Byrne to discuss what he'll bring to the stallion roster. Co-trainer Amanda Zetterholm reflects on star steeplechaser Il Est Francais's sparkling comeback win, while Aussie star James McDonald looks back on another Group One triumph, this time on Cox Plate fancy Broadsiding at Rosehill, and gives Nick his views on Romantic Warrior running in the key Middle Eastern races next spring.

Dr. James McDonald, MD, MPH, Commissioner of Health, New York State Department of Health, details a program that uses scholarships to address health inequities; Dr. Umair Shah, MD, MPH, Secretary of Health, Washington State Department of Health, had a recent appearance on a podcast and discussed the relationship between public health, health care providers and communities; Marie Flake, Senior Program Manager at the Public Health Foundation, outlines an e-learning training on the Foundational Public Health Services Framework, FPHS; Preview of an interview with a longtime ASTHO executive.  New York State Department of Health Announces Additional Funding to Continue Efforts to Improve and Expand Physician Diversity Reimagining Government for the Digital Age Podcast Episode: Reimagining Public Healthcare with Globally Renowned Innovator, Dr. Umair A. Shah, MD, MPH, Secretary of Health, Washington State Department of Health ASTHO and PHF: Foundational Public Health Services eLearning Series  

Dr. Laura Herrera Scott, Secretary of Health for the Maryland Department of Health and an ASTHO Member, discusses the state's revamped overdose dashboard; Claire Hannan, Executive Director of the Association of Immunization Managers, tells us how immunizations get extra attention during this month; Dr. James McDonald, New York State Health Commissioner and an ASTHO Member, explains his approach to health equity; and an ASTHO webinar focuses on pharmacist-prescribed contraception on Tuesday, September 17th. Maryland Department of Health News Release: Maryland Department of Health launches new overdose data dashboard  Association of Immunization Managers Web Page: 2024 Immunization Champion Award Winners New York Now Web Page: Full Episode – The State of NY's Cannabis Industry, NYS DOH Commissioner ASTHO Webinar: Implementation of Pharmacist-Prescribed Contraception: Public Outreach & Awareness  

Investing in my personal brand has been the best investment I've ever made in my career. So I wanted to find the perfect designer to give a personal branding masterclass and I think it's Oliur.He's built a massive audience across YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, etc. and he shares his hard-earned knowledge in this episode:Oliur's keys to growing on social mediaDifferent ways to create leverage in your careerHow he (accidentally) landed a billion-dollar clientHow you can get more confident putting yourself out thereSpecific ways to build meaningful connections with other designersWhat designers need to know to get better at marketing themselvesa lot moreOliur cites James McDonald as an example of someone sharing their workOliur's iPhone presets and high income streams videosWe talk about his friend Ali Abdaal (YouTuber, Podcaster, NYT bestseller)Jason Levin's iMessage screenshot of Travis Scott performingI referenced Jack Butcher's “this is pointless” graphDan Petty's “That Marker Pack”The old Audience Building course on Maven (RIP)Turkish designer Oguz (Oliur talked about the power of his aesthetic)Gabe Valdivia's new app Almanac that he built with Cursor

It's no secret that New York's legal cannabis industry has room for improvement. The issues include leadership changes for the NYS Office of Cannabis Management, the slow rollout legal cannabis licenses and issues with cracking down illegal smoke shops across the state. We unpack the many challenges and the future of the industry with Damien Cornwell, president of the Cannabis Association of New York. The state Department of Health has a direct-patient care approach to providing healthcare services and safeguarding public health. James McDonald, commissioner of the NYS Health Department, speaks with David Lombardo, of WCNY's Capitol Pressroom, for an in-depth conversation. EXPLORE MORE: nynow.org

Do you really want to know what's in the Ark of God? Welcome to the Daily Devo. I am Vince Miller. This week, we are reading 1 Samuel 6. I've titled this chapter "From Confusion to Clarity." In chapter 6, the Ark of God returns. The priests offer a sacrifice upon the return, but they make a fatal mistake: And he struck some of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they looked upon the ark of the Lord. He struck seventy men of them, and the people mourned because the Lord had struck the people with a great blow. — 1 Samuel 6:19 One Quick Peek We're curious beings, aren't we? I've been curious since my teens. I remember taking things apart to understand how they worked. But as I've grown older and wiser, I've learned there are lines and limits to curiosity. Sometimes curiosity pays off positively; other times, it brings severe consequences. In our relationship with God, it's good to be curious about Him and His will in our lives. Yet, we must tread carefully when our curiosity leads to selfish thoughts, attitudes, or actions. God sets boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. When we defy these boundaries, we distance ourselves from Him and face the consequences. Why Do The Priests Peek? Here's the big question: Why did these 70 priests of God dare to peek into the Ark? They knew better—they were explicitly instructed never to touch, open, or even look inside it. That's basic priestly training. Their curiosity may have stemmed from eagerness to see if the Philistines took anything from the Ark, or perhaps it was their first chance to see it outside the Tabernacle. Whatever the reason, their disobedience cost them their lives. What Was In The Box? So, are you curious? Do you want to know what was in the Ark of God?  I know you do. According to Hebrews 9:4, the Ark contained three objects: The Tablets of Stone: The tablets on which God wrote the Ten Commandments. Aaron's Rod: This was a stick that belonged to Aaron, who was a high priest of Israel. A Jar of Manna: This was the bread that God provided for the Israelites when they were wandering in the desert. They represented the rule, protection, and provision of God. Hard Lessons for Men of The Cloth God's boundaries apply to all. His justice doesn't spare insiders who defy His will. Recent events involving prominent spiritual leaders prove this point. For example, consider James McDonald, Ravi Zacharias, Bill Hybels, and the latest, Tony Evans. For some, this is heartbreaking, but it is simply a strong reminder. Curiosity within God's will is safe and beneficial, but beyond it lies danger. So be curious, but don't be tempted to step outside the will of God. #CuriosityAndConsequences, #GodsBoundaries, #WisdomInObedience Ask This: How can we maintain a healthy balance between curiosity and obedience in our daily walk with God? Reflecting on times when curiosity led to positive outcomes versus negative consequences, how can we apply lessons from the priests' mistakes to our own lives today? Do This: Be appropriately curious. Pray This: Father, help me discern between healthy curiosity that seeks Your will and selfish curiosity that leads astray. Guide me to honor Your boundaries, knowing Your wisdom protects and guides me always. Amen. Play This: Every Direction.

Michael Walker joined Michael Felgate in-studio for his weekly segment on Tuesday. On the agenda, this week, Zac Lloyd's first Group 1 and Walker says he is the most exciting prospect in the jockey ranks. He also spoke about the continued dominance of James McDonald, and the retirement of Brett Prebble. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/fFImYJWb2XUNancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump's candidacy for president—something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy says she could not support. Then, she was ghosted. In this edition of The Roys Report, Nancy French, a New York Times bestselling author and Christian conservative, recounts how she's been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why, as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn't support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had. And she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. Nancy French and her husband have been at the center of the major upheaval our nation has faced—as a new political paradigm invaded the church pews. As an abuse survivor and woman of conviction, Nancy courageously shares her story that has insights for every listener. Guests Nancy French Nancy French has collaborated on multiple books for celebrities - five of which made the New York Times best seller list. She has conducted a multi-year journalistic investigation, written commentary, and published for the nation's most prominent newspapers and magazines. She has written several books under her own name and tells her own story in Ghosted: An American Story. She lives in Franklin, Tennessee with her husband – journalist David French – and family. Learn more at NancyFrench.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, NANCY FRENCH Julie Roys  00:04Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president; something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy couldn’t support. Then she was ghosted. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Nancy French, a New York Times best-selling author, a Christian and a conservative who’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had, and she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. Nancy writes about all of this in her book Ghosted, which we’re offering this month to anyone who gives a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report. And if you’d like to do that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells us about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. I’m so excited to share both the book and this podcast with you. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture. But more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by his word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well focusing on the right use of power in our churches, so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of character. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again joining me is New York Times best-selling author Nancy French. As a ghostwriter, she’s written for a variety of people, from well-known politicians to celebrities. She’s also investigated and exposed widespread sexual and spiritual abuse at Kanakuk camp, America’s largest Christian camp, and her latest book Ghosted, tells her remarkable story of growing up in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, marrying David French, a New York Times opinion columnist, becoming a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. And then when she and her husband opposed Trump, getting kicked out by their own tribe and then becoming the target of white nationalists and Trump supporters. So Nancy, welcome, and it’s just such a privilege to have you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:08 Thanks for having me on. This is fun.   Julie Roys  04:11 And I know that this is not the best time for you to be doing a book tour. You’ve been very public about your struggle with cancer. And I know you’re going through chemo. And I just feel honored that you’d be willing to take the time in the middle of something like that to talk about this. So thank you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:27 Yeah, no, thank you so much. Yes, I think I’ve done pretty well with all the interviews, even though I’m high as a kite on prednisone. And I haven’t said too many things that I maybe regretted later. But I’m very thankful to be able to have a book out. It just so happens, it’s in the middle of chemo. So this is gonna get real.   Julie Roys  04:45 Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I was surprised when I read your book. I mean, you and David are kind of like this powerhouse couple. And yet, you had very humble beginnings. In fact, your grandparents lived in the mountains of Appalachia; you lived in the foothills because your parents moved. But again, they were interesting sort of rough and tumble group of people. In fact, your dad used to joke that your family was famous or maybe infamous is a better word. Tell us a little bit about that and the background of your family.   NANCY FRENCH  05:19 Yeah, we get accused a lot of being like Washington, DC cocktail party elites or whatever. I don’t even go to Washington DC. I am from Tennessee. My parents are from Montego mountain. My grandfather was a coal miner. My dad did not graduate from high school. He got his GED. And he later in his 50s went back to college. But  he went to college, he got a degree and amazing man. But yeah, from self-described hillbillies, and all that entails. And yeah, I wanted to sort of describe my upbringing, just so that people could understand that many times people will say, Well, you just don’t understand what true Americans think or you don’t understand what true Tennesseans think. And I always sort of in my mind laugh at that because I’m like, you can’t out Tennessee me. You can be an American and a real Tennessean and hold the beliefs that I hold, you know, so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to describe that upbringing. I love my family. They’re amazing. They’re fierce. And I think some of that ferocity has been passed on to me and I just I love my hillbilly family.   Julie Roys  06:32 And your part Cherokee Indian too?   NANCY FRENCH  06:35 Yeah, we have a lot of Indian blood. So my grandmother was I think was 1/4. And that was Cherokee. And then my grandfather also had a different type of Montana Indian in him, which is interesting. But yeah, it was all mixed together.   Julie Roys  06:52 So your dad broke from your family, moved to the foothills. Mayfield, Kentucky, which I know where that’s at. My dad actually lives near there now. But Mayfield, Kentucky, then eventually to Tennessee. Talk about the culture of the home that you grew up in, but also the town and sort of rural Tennessee and what that was like.   NANCY FRENCH  07:16 So Paris, Tennessee, has a 16-foot-tall Eiffel Tower,   Julie Roys  07:22 An Eiffel Tower.   NANCY FRENCH  07:25 There’s a huge battle between Paris, Texas and Paris, Tennessee over this Eiffel Tower business. But Paris, Tennessee is an amazing place. I grew up near the lake, Kentucky lake. We have a 60-foot Eiffel Tower. It’s just a great place to grow up very rural. We did not necessarily value education in the way that you would think a school might. For example, in seventh grade, I did not have science class, but instead they decided because none of us were going to go to college, to teach us about guns and so we had hunter safety classes and that culminated in skeet shooting contest. Which, I don’t like to brag, I don’t like to but sometimes you got to. I was the best shot in my seventh-grade class. Which is interesting and funny, but that’s how I grew up; just complete redneck hillbilly sort of existence and I loved it. Like I love Paris, Tennessee. I love Montego mountain and I love Mayfield, Kentucky.   Julie Roys  08:28 Well, it’s funny you say you lived in Paris, Kentucky. My parents for probably about 12 years lived in London, Kentucky, which you know, we didn’t know Kentucky at all. We grew up in Pennsylvania, but we thought it was kind of comical because it’s the least like London of any place I can think of in all of the United State.   NANCY FRENCH  08:47 There’s also Versailles.   Julie Roys  08:49 Versailles right. Not Versailles. But Versailles.   08:52 Yes. And there’s also a fence. Right. Yeah, it’s crazy. Love all these small towns.   Julie Roys  08:59 Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that your dad did differently than your growing up or his growing up, I mean, he came from sort of a superstitious, it sounded like background very sort of animated with maybe tribal kind of religion. But then he became a part of the Church of Christ, and describe what that church was like, I mean, seems from your description, very conservative, but also kind of leaning towards the legalistic side.   NANCY FRENCH  09:32 Yes, that is a very kind way of putting it, Julie. But I will say this, the church probably saved my dad. It’s like, saved his life saved his soul saved my, because he got off the mountain and he and my mother started going to church. They took us to church three times a week. It was just very wonderful and Norman Rockwell ish, you would think, but under the  facade of that sweet small town, Southern church experience, there was a lot of abuse happening at my church. So I was abused by, there was one guy who was like a predator. And he abused 15 people in my church. I didn’t know about the other 14, I only knew about me. I only now know this in the process of writing the book, I figured this out. But I grew up sort of feeling isolated spiritually. And it made me feel differently about God. Previously, church was a cushion, the warm blanket, a place to lay your head. And then all of that was ripped away from me because of that abuse. And I became isolated and smoked cigarettes and painted my fingernails black and skipped church, and it just set me on a bad path.   Julie Roys  10:43 And you were 12 years old when that happened? .   10:46 That’s right. And the preacher was 10 years older.   Julie Roys  10:51 I read your book soon after I read Krista Browns book who of course, was sexually abused in her church as a child. I was actually stunned by the similarities between your story and her story. But I think that the thing that really struck me was the way that both of you internalized it. She internalized it, she called it an affair. How can you have an affair with your youth pastor when you’re an underage teen. You, similarly, you kind of took the guilt and shame on yourself.   11:27 I did. And I think this is common. This is like sort of an embarrassing book to write because it’s so I don’t know, like, actually, I shouldn’t even say that. I’m saying words that are shame full. Like I’m saying this is embarrassing, but I didn’t do anything wrong, right?   Julie Roys  11:45 No, you didn’t.   NANCY FRENCH  11:46 That’s what you think. And in the church with the purity culture sometimes, very well meaning poorly conceived theology. Which is, if you have a sexual sin, which by the way, you don’t, if you’re being abused, that’s not a sin, you’re not the one sinning. But if you’ve been compromised sexually, you’re ruined for the rest of your life. And I internalized that, and I thought that was right. And I also thought that this pastor, preacher, Vacation Bible School person, I thought he loved me, because I was 12. I didn’t know, I didn’t know anything about this. I just didn’t perceive it correctly. So I told myself the wrong story about this abuse almost my whole life. And so this book, though, there’s a lot more to it than just the abuse, obviously. This is me correcting the record for myself. But I wanted to do it publicly for all the people out there who feel guilty over stuff that they shouldn’t feel guilty over. And also, I became a complete mess after my abuse, and I wanted to show people that. Because what happens is you get embarrassed because you make a series of bad decisions and you look unsophisticated, you look immoral, you look like trash. And people will, they’ll look at you and they’ll say, that’s just trash, why are you listening to her? When in actuality, they should look at the damage that has been done to people in the church and repent about the way they’ve been handling abuse. And so I sort of wanted to put myself out there and say, Okay, y’all esteem me now, when I’m almost 50, because I’ve gotten my life together to the degree that I have, which I haven’t, but people esteem me. They don’t know about any of this. So I wanted to say, Okay, this is what it looks like, this is what I looked like. And I looked ridiculous. I was flailing, I was terrible in a lot of ways. You know, let’s talk about it.   Julie Roys  13:45 I think that’s so helpful. Because especially now when we have as public figures, you have a curated image, and it’s often so different than the real image, right? Although I really appreciate it, you have been so real, I think, especially as you’ve been walking through your cancer, the treatments and everything. I’ve so appreciated that. I appreciate that today, you forgot your wig. And so you’re just wearing whatever, and a lot of people would be like, Oh, I can’t go on. But I love that because that’s where all of us are. We like to pretend we’re not. But that’s where all of us are, at least at different points in our life. And so I just, I appreciate that. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening, who appreciate that as well. It didn’t end with the violence and the abuse didn’t end with that Pastor whose name was Conrad as I recall, but you had a boyfriend then, Jacob, who unbelievable. I mean, who this man turned out to be and you were trying to break it off from him forever. That did remind me of boyfriends I’ve tried to break it off with and you couldn’t. But talk about what happened with Jacob  and how that impacted you.   NANCY FRENCH  15:03 So I tried to find solace outside the church, meaning in boyfriends, and I made a series of terrible mistakes. And I dated this one guy, who eventually, I actually, Julie, double crossed him. I was cheating on him to let the record show that I was not innocent in this. But it was like I could not break up with him, I didn’t have the backbone to break up with him. And every time I tried, he threatened to commit suicide. And I realize now how terrible that is. I didn’t know it at the time. But in one very terrible moment, he revealed that he knew I had been cheating on him, and he tried to kill me. And so that was a pretty dramatic moment, he tried to strangle me, and it was bad. And boy number two, the guy that I was dating, actually came and rescued me from the situation at the very last second, very wonderful. So that boyfriend number two realized that I was cheating on him. And that I was in duress in the same moment. And he immediately pivoted to try to help me, and he did. I’m very thankful for that. But all of that was the pre-David French romance, which you can imagine when I met David French, who is so levelheaded and calm and good and mora., I wanted that. And that’s what I got. So David French sort of helped put me back on track. And, yeah, I’ll be forever grateful to him over that.   Julie Roys  16:35 Yeah, I was really struck by how big of a difference he made in your life. I mean, at this point,  you’re a victim of two assaults. You’re just absolutely reeling. You’re going to Lipscomb University, which is a Church of Christ school. Although I thought it was interesting that you could not even go to chapel. You knew, if you didn’t go to chapel, you’re going to lose your scholarship. But you call it the positive theology that you couldn’t stomach at that point. I think this is actually good for Christians to hear. Because it’s still there in a lot of churches where it’s very, well just describe what that was, and how that struck you as somebody who’s been through the kind of abuse that you have been through.   NANCY FRENCH  17:30 Yeah, I just had experienced so much. And then my best friend died. And in the same time period, and I was full of grief, though, I wasn’t even really properly processing. I wasn’t grieving the way you’re supposed to grieve. But I knew when I go into chapel, I was actually seeking answers, like, what do you do when you’re completely decimated by life? And the chapel speakers would be like, Hey, guys, we should be humble. Let me tell you about my little league game where I was pitching, and this happened. And I was just like, what is happening? This is so vacuous. I could not listen to this one more syllable. This is going to kill me. It felt like they were trying to kill me. And the reason why is because they didn’t have a doctrine of suffering. Right? Like I was really suffering. Not to mention the fact now that I realized that the Church of Christ leaders knew that I was being abused by this preacher and didn’t do anything. That’s a whole different level of stuff. The people at Lipscomb weren’t guilty of any of that. They were just nice people. And Lipscomb is really amazing. Like David works there. Now, David has always had a great experience there. But my experience there was I could not get down with this theology that I thought was vacuous. And it did not help. I needed help, like I need to help. I was suicidal, or something close to suicidal. So I needed help. And so those chapel talks were not going to cut it. And so I got called into the Dean of Students called me in and he was like, if you don’t go back to chapel, you’re losing everything. And I was like, I’ve lost everything. I don’t care. I never went back. But there’s something about this toxic positivity that I noticed with cancer, and here’s why. So whenever people find out that you have cancer immediately, they want to pray for your healing and for the cure. You have people at McDonald's stop and pray for your healing, which is very kind and sweet. But when I first got my diagnosis, my son, who’s a philosophy major, said there’s going to be beauty in this. Like, you have to keep your eyes open to see the beauty in this. And there’s, I have like, that was such an interesting, salient thing to say, because there’s so much to learn through disease and disability. Like looking like this. Like, I have no makeup on. I have no hair. In 1 million years would not have taken a picture and posted it to Facebook, let alone been on an interview with you a year ago looking like this. And I am so happy because I feel like, I don’t know, Julie, have maybe this is just me. I’m completely insecure. But I’m insecure my whole life. I’m almost 50 I’m insecure over the way I look. I’m insecure over cellulite, I’m over insecure over my weight, I’m insecure over my teeth that are equine looking. Like whatever you know. But what I’ll do as a ghostwriter, I’ll move in and help people write books about confidence. And so I was talking to my friend, Kim Gravelle, who has her own makeup line and fashion line on QVC. She’s a queen, amazing businesswoman. And we wrote a book called, Collecting Confidence, and I was talking to her, and she was like, you’re so confident I love seeing you. And I was like I faked all that. I completely faked all that. I can’t even imagine people who are confident, like I don’t even get that. But the cancer thing. Oh my gosh, it’s like it removed the vanity or something. And I don’t want to say vanity like it’s negative because we all you know, care what we look like, and it’s important. But I am not going to criticize my body again. I’m so thankful for it. And thankful for the way I look. I’m thankful for being bald because it allows me to connect with people in the most beautiful ways. Women who have cancer will send me pictures of their bald heads and they’re afraid to do it publicly. Some of them don’t even let their husbands see their bald heads. And so what I’m trying to do is normalize this, like this is okay, it’s okay to look like this. I probably won’t look like this forever. But it’s okay to look like this. And so when I’m doing my normal life, that’s not book promotion, typically, I just go bald. And people come up to me and they’re like, is this a fashion choice? Is this you know, like, what’s going on? Because I also tattooed my eyebrows on, because I’m not completely free of vanity. But anyway, it just opens up so much conversation and so whenever you’re faced with lament and grief and loss and abuse and death and disease and disability, you better have a doctrine of suffering. And you have to know how your faith intersects with that. And the good news is it intersects in a very beautiful way. With Christianity, we get back what we lose. It’s a beautiful thing. And I just love the fact that there’s so much truth and beauty even when we look like this. There’s still truth and beauty that we can tap into that is so much greater than my tattooed eyebrows, although on fleek.   Julie Roys  23:05 Well, I think you look beautiful, even with a bald head. But I love that. I absolutely love that. And I love that sometimes when we go through, I was telling somebody this recently that sometimes when we go through really horrific things, the things that used to scare us, the things that used to be so daunting, now we’re like, now that I’ve gone through this, like, go ahead, make my day. I’m not afraid anymore. And I do think it’s a wonderful like, I’ve never been through cancer, so I don’t want to even pretend that I know what that’s like. But yeah, I do hear what you’re saying and suffering for believers is redemptive; it’s always redemptive in some way. And I think you’re right that we don’t talk about it nearly enough in the church. I want to get back to David, because again, he made this huge, huge difference in your life. And I just thought it was so beautiful how you wrote about him. But he really, I mean, here you are an absolute wreck. And I love how when you met him like you confronted him, because he’s the one who convinced you to go to Lipscomb. And you’re like, thanks a lot, you know, and you kind of laid into him. And yet he responded in such a gracious way and within. I mean, I don’t know if it was a few hours or days like he had led you to the Lord.   NANCY FRENCH  24:27 Yeah, we had a very truncated experience dating, romantically and spiritually. He was sick. He had an incurable disease, which is a totally different story. So he was sick. We started dating, the second date, I realized I could marry this person. And then I think we were engaged within three months. I didn’t know him. He was like a complete stranger. But during that very brief amount of time he told me about Jesus. He was like he was telling me about the Holy Spirit because David French, New York Times columnist, was cured of an incurable disease,  Okay? And that was in 95. And I got to see that happen. He weighed 100 pounds when we were dating, he was so sick. And maybe 120 I don’t know; he lost a ton of weight. But I got to see this miracle happen. And I didn’t believe in miracles. I didn’t believe in any of it. So he was telling me about that. And I was like, wow, I think I might need to know about whatever it is that you know about. And so he used CS Lewis to talk me through the Lord, lunatic or liar, those three options. And for those listening, CS Lewis was basically like, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Was he telling the truth? Was he insane? Or was he just lying? And I could not bring myself to say that Jesus Christ was lying. I just couldn’t. And so the only thing and I didn’t think he was a lunatic. So I was like, you know, I think Jesus was telling the truth. And that small thing changed my life, because I believed and David helped me believe, and it was very beautiful. So I write about that in the book.   Julie Roys  26:11 Yeah. Lord, liar, lunatic. It’s a powerful argument. So simple, but so powerful. And yet a lot of people just have never, they’ve never thought deeply about it. And then you guys got married, in Paris, which is great. I won’t go into it because we don’t have time. But that was a great, great story. You moved to Manhattan. And then you, this hit me in a probably a different way than it would normally because I kind of lean charismatic. So I’m open to charismatic things, even though I would say, I grew up, my dad was a surgeon. So we were always, if you thought you were sick, it was kind of like, prove it. It was everything a little bit skeptical. And, as a journalist, we tend to be pretty skeptical too. But I read this about your encounter with a prophet. It was I guess; it was like a reunion of the Harvard Christian group that David had been a part of. And well, you were skeptical too. So tell about that experience, because it really is pretty mind blowing.   NANCY FRENCH  27:23 Craziest story. I became a Christian. I have one inch of theological belief, which is I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, all in You. And the Harvard Law School Christian fellowship was having a reunion. And we went, and by the way, I don’t want to go hang out with a bunch of people who graduated from Harvard, right? Because, a three-time college dropout. I don’t want to hang out with these people. I’m intimidated. Everybody is so smart. And also, when you grow up in the way that I grew up, you’re taught that people who believe in the Holy Spirit and Pentecostals or charismatics are low class, they’re unsophisticated, they’re not smart. They’re given to emotion. So here I am going into the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship. So they’re smarter than I am. They get paid a lot of money to evaluate documents, and the Bible is a document. And David was like, Yeah, I think they invited a prophet, and I was like, What is a prophet? Is this like a psychic? Like I don’t have a category for this. And so we go to the thing, and I was apprehensive because, Julie, I don’t know if this is a sign of a guilty conscience. 100% It is. But if you talk to a prophet, I was thinking that he would say, Well, you don’t read your Bible. You don’t pray, your main to whatever, you know, like whatever you kick the dog, whatever, like he could read my mail. So I didn’t want to talk to a prophet either. So anyway, we go to the thing. Gary has on a Hawaiian shirt. He’s smelly, he has a hairy belly, and I can see the bottom of it. It’s insane. I’m like, okay, so this is Gary the Prophet. Okay, whatever. So Gary the Prophet, y’all gotta read this, it’s the craziest thing that ever happened. But he goes to the people at the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship, and I thought he would say to Harvard Law people, Oh, you struggle with pride? Or oh, I don’t know, you’ve got so much intelligence. I don’t know what you’d say to Harvard people. I’m not a Harvard person, as you can tell. But that’s not what he did. He went around the room and read to like, spoke into their lives. So for example, I don’t know if you know Shaunti Feldheim. She’s a Christian. Shaunti was there, and her husband Jack, and I use their names in the book. And later I was like, Hey, I used your name in the book with this crazy thing because they were there and they had this crappy car that Shaunti and Jeff, like, they were the only people in New York City who had the car of our friend group. So they were very nice to let us use the car, but it was a freaking jalopy, and they were always in fights over it. And so, but Gary looked at Jeff and Shaunti and spoke to them about this car. And I was like, what? So you got a chance to talk to a prophet. He’s giving you automobile advice, that’s weird. And then he went to other people, and he talked to another friend who secretly had written poetry and he said, “You know the poetry right secretly? It’s time to do this was like literary advice. I was like, what is happening, Gary the Prophet? So then Gary the prophet looked at me, and he was like you, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be so bad. And he called me up. And he told me, he said, you’re pregnant. And I was like, No, I’m not. Julie, this is TMI, but this is what’s happening. I was on my period, and I told him that, and he looked at me, I said, it is impossible, because I wanted everyone in this Harvard Law School Christian fellowship to realize they’ve been duped by a con man. And so I was like, defiant, like, No, I’m on my period. I’m not pregnant. And he just laughed at me. And he was like, with God, all things are possible. But this is what you need to know, you are pregnant, you are carrying a girl, she’s going to come this year, she’s going to have physical problems, here is five Bible verses that you need to know. When they tell you that you’re aborting, don’t believe it, you’re gonna have a healthy baby. And all is gonna be well just remember these words. And I was like, okay, Gary, the Prophet. This is weird because I wasn’t pregnant, right? But he scared me to death. So I go home, and my period stops. And I think, you know, this is weird. I think he’s scared me into not having a period. Gary the prophet is the worst prophet ever. And then later, though, like I took a pregnancy test, and I was pregnant. Apparently, the bleeding that I thought was my period was implantation. And Gary the prophet knew this. And lo and behold, a few months later, the doctor calls and he says, “You are miscarrying. You’re aborting call off the parties. But they gave me a due date in January. I knew that wasn’t the case, because he said that she was going to come this year, and I also knew the gender. So talking about gender reveal party, Gary the Prophet, you did not need that. And Camille was born. And she’s amazing. And right now this second, she’s 13 floors up. She’s got two of my grandchildren, that she’s given birth to; cute, wonderful, beautiful kids. And we’ve seen God’s hand in Camille’s life and all of our lives in such dramatic ways. And that cured me of being skeptical of the Holy Spirit. My book is called Ghosted, not just because I’m a celebrity ghostwriter, or because vast friend groups have ghosted me for my political decisions. But also I wanted it to encourage people to really consider the Holy Ghost, to consider God, because He will not let you down even though everyone else will.   Julie Roys  33:03 I never said why I’m a little more skeptical than I used to be. And it’s because of what’s happening at the International House of Prayer. Just, and of course, I mean, this is the umpteenth. I don’t know how many scandals I’ve covered since I’ve started The Roys Report. I mean, it’s just been one after another after another. But this particular one, I think is especially gross, because prophecy was used to manipulate and then abuse women. And then we have this prophetic history that now some of the key facts in it have been debunked. And it just seems like it was used in such a manipulative way. And so I’m trying to figure out why God? Like why do you even like, is that real? Like when people get because I remember, I used to be in the Vineyard, and I remember hearing stories, and I remember miraculous things happening. And then you go to a church where they don’t expect that to happen, and guess what? It doesn’t, you know, kind of like the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in ways that our faith doesn’t allow it to, sometimes, but it was good for me to hear it.   NANCY FRENCH  34:17 I think that’s a very interesting point. And it’s important to say it, because the charismatic church has really, really messed up with this Donald Trump prophecy stuff.   Julie Roys  34:29 Oh, my goodness, yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  34:31 They’ve gone off the rails. And so what do you do like if you’re a Christian person, and this is not just for charismatic people or Pentecostal people, but all white evangelicals who are going to church where the egregious evil is overlooked because of political positions? What do you do? And so that’s the thing I don’t I don’t even go to a Pentecostal church. I just really believe that there’s a lot of counterfeit stuff happening, with all these prophecies, political prophecies. But if it’s counterfeit, that indicates there’s something true. Right? So it’s a mimicry of something good. And so I would just encourage, I don’t know how to do it. I’m not doing church right. I’m completely a mess; I’m hanging on to Christianity by my freaking fingernails. And ever since I got the cancer diagnosis, I can’t really go to church, I’ve gone like twice in seven months. However, I feel so warmly towards God. And I feel like he’s got me. In spite of all of this, I just feel so thankful to God. And I don’t understand God. So when I wrote this book, one of my intentions was to never be invited by a church to come speak on the book at a church. And I think I probably pulled that off, the invitations are not rolling in Julie. And that’s because I don’t understand God. So I’m just telling you the truth. This is what happened to me, there was a guy named Gary, and he had a hairy belly, and a Hawaiian shirt. And he was completely right about the trajectory of my life. And we recorded it because he said, If I’m a false prophet, you’ll be able to say that I’m a false prophet. I’m recording everything I say to you. And there’s some things that haven’t happened yet that I 100% know are going to happen in our lives. Then David and I joke about it all the time because it’s just so crazy. But it feels crazy. But it happened, and I’ve got a kid upstairs, who is alive. And so many things like that happen. And sometimes things happen that you don’t get that aren’t as uplifting, that God acts in ways that are baffling and confusing. And I included those stories too. Because I just wanted the reader to be able to say, Okay, this is what my life looks like, because I wrangle with God and wrestle with God. What does yours look like? Is it as nuts as this? And I just think it is, I think we’re just too sophisticated to talk about it. But I think people have interactions with God all the time. And I want to normalize talking about that.   Julie Roys  37:10 And when I was in Vineyard, their tagline used to be to make the supernatural natural. And I did love tha.t I loved lots of things about my Vineyard experience. I know they’re going through some really, very difficult times right now. But yeah, it was very positive for me in many ways. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate just the fact that I read Scripture differently now, whereas I used to skip over oh my gosh, they raised the dead. You know, like that was normal for the disciples like what does that mean to us today? But it’s challenging.   NANCY FRENCH  37:42 Yeah. Or what does it mean when Paul says just eagerly seek these gifts of the Holy Spirit? Do it just do it, just believe the Bible and do it. And one of the things is church is so nuts right now. It makes you feel like you don’t have a spiritual home. Like, actually, like, I do not have a spiritual home, I’ve been projectile vomited out of like the church.   Julie Roys  38:05 I can relate to this. So yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  38:08 if you can just like divorce yourself from the people who are angry at you for whatever reasons, and just sort of settle into your relationship with God. I don’t think we should forsake the church or the gathering of our friends and saints and all that. I don’t know how to do it. It is a very difficult time. And so I wrote this book for other people who feel politically, culturally, or spiritually homeless. And I’m just sort of like reaching out my hand and saying, Hey, do y’all, this is weird, what’s going on? Do y’all feel weird about this? Anyway, we can be weird together, we can be alone together. And that’s what I hoped the book sort of encapsulated.   Julie Roys  38:47 I loved your story of how you became a ghost writer, which is kind of amazing. You’re a college dropout. And all of a sudden you’re writing for all these stars. A lot of people don’t know that you’re writing the book because you’re a ghost. But you end up writing and I didn’t realize you wrote this book Bristol Palin’s book when she got pregnant. For people, you know, who aren’t familiar with this, although most of us I would guess, that are listening. Or it wasn’t that long ago. Sarah Palin became the vice-presidential candidate. And of course, she’s a conservative, Christian conservative, very traditional values, and then it comes out uh-oh, her daughter Bristol is pregnant out of wedlock. Although it wasn’t really what I think everybody probably assumed at the time. Talk about that experience of writing that book with Bristol, but also of the reception that book got when you published it.   NANCY FRENCH  39:44 Yeah, so I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh and knowing without a shadow of a doubt that Democrats were sexual predators, or at least for pretty still with them. Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, give me a freaking break. So I was like, okay, So that’s the party. I do not want to have anything to do with. Democrats do not care about women. So I go to Alaska, I live with the Palins, I meet Bristol. Her story is told beautifully in her book. And I’ll let her tell her own story. But I was shocked when I got up there. Because what I thought was true was not true about the Palins. And I love Bristol Palin, she is courageous. She has a backbone, and she is a fighter for what is right. During that very tumultuous time when she got pregnant out of wedlock, she really rose to the occasion and she’s an amazing mother. And I love her so much. But what I learned when I got there, I said to her Bristol, we need to really talk about this baby shower that you had and she goes, I didn’t have a baby shower. And I was like, Yes, you did. I’ve got pictures. Look, your kid has this camouflage onesie. And she was like, Nancy, that is photoshopped. What is wrong with like, it’s so obviously photoshopped. I didn’t know because I was new to the world of lies and deception. But then when Bristol told me her story, how she lost her virginity. She goes, it wasn’t really lost. It was stolen. And I was like, oh, okay, what? I was completely floored by that because all of the media coverage was mocking her. And so when we published this in the book, I thought everybody would be like, my bad. I write for The Washington Post, or I write for the New York Times, or I write for this thing. And we mocked her for what essentially was a sex crime. She was a victim. And we’re sorry about that. That’s not what happened. People continue to mock her. They continue to make fun of her. And what that told me at the time was Democrats do not care about women, unless you’re a certain type of woman. Now, later, fast forward five freakin minutes, and here we are. The GOP standard bearer is someone who has been held criminally accountable for rape in court, much more so than Bill Clinton. And we’ve embraced this guy. So this is my trajectory. It has been one of confusion. I don’t feel like I’ve changed. I feel like you could believe that Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy were sexual predators or had sexual problems, obviously, without you can believe that and also look at people in your own tribe, can say the same things. You can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can just decide to be against sexual predation generally, across the board. It’s pretty easy if you make these decisions. But that’s not what we do. What we do is, oh, Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Well, that’s how Hollywood is, you know, Hollywood, they’re godless. Or the Catholics, for sure the Catholics have a problem. And then you find out oh, is the Baptist, oh it's the deacon Oh, it’s Kanakuk camps in Branson, Missouri. And it’s like, you don’t want to embrace that you’re just like, Nope. A part of my identity is that I’m a part of the good guys, I belong to the good tribe. And that was mine, too. I firmly believed that, that I was on the side of good, but then I wasn't, and I was guilty of mischaracterizing my liberal neighbor and trying to fight for my tribe over truth. And anyway, my book is sort of like unpacking that, it is not chastising the reader. It’s chastising myself because I got too much into the scoring of political points occupationally. And I realized that was not kind of me. God didn’t give me my writing talent for me to disparage my neighbor and to bear false witness. And so that’s what I was doing. And when I decided not to lie, or bear false witness, I was unemployable. I was as popular as head lice. So we used to be super popular in certain circles. And then, you know, nobody wants anything to do with us now.   Julie Roys  44:02 Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. 2015 You guys were like the darlings of the GOP. I mean, David had gotten  awarded the Ronald Reagan award from CPAC, you know, the Conservative Political Action Conference. I mean, you guys were like, you were the quintessential Christian conservatives. And I think that’s when I was introduced to you. I was working at Moody at the time. And so I was doing a lot of commentaries and it’s amazing to me, I look back and I’m like, I had everything figured out then. Wow. It’s so funny, because I don’t now, but then I did. But I was very right. I was very conservative. And I could spout all of the political reasons why the Conservatives were right. And then all of a sudden, I couldn’t, I don’t think I changed. I don’t think I changed either. I was just absolutely shocked at who my Christian conservative neighbors were. Like, because I had supporters who were furious at me because I spoke out against Trump and stopped supporting me. And I’m like, Who did you think I was? Like, how can you support this man? I have not changed. I thought we were the party that cared about values. And they didn’t. Clearly we cared more about power, we cared more about position. But I have kind of thought, in my role as an investigative reporter in this space, where I call out Christians, and people often don’t want to hear, as you know, the scandals and what’s really going on. And so I thought, I got a lot of hate mail and pushback. Compared to what you and David have been through, I mean, that gave me like a whole new perspective, the personal nature of what was done to you. Especially regarding I know you have a daughter that you have adopted from Ethiopia. The amount of cruelty and this is where I’m like, that whole compassionate conservative thing. I was like, where are they? Talk about what happened to you when again, you simply stuck to your guns, and you spoke out, you spoke out what was true about Donald Trump. What happened?   NANCY FRENCH  46:28 So chaos. We’re big fans of Hamilton, and we are always like chaos and bloodshed. If you know that songs chaos and bloodshed are not the solution. But that’s what ensued. So I wrote a 2016 article in the Washington Post about my own sexual abuse and how I was begging the GOP to consider sexual abuse victims, because we were not about this. Imagine if you’re me, and you grow up believing Bill Clinton is rapist. The Democrats don’t care about women. The GOP is the party of family values. We care about children, all this stuff. Imagine if you’re that, and then they show up and they’re like, Hey, this is the guy that you can vote for. His name is Donald Trump, he grabs women by the genitals. It’s fine. Just, it’s great.   Julie Roys  47:17 Just locker room talk. Yeah.   47:19 And you’re just like, I don’t think I can do this. Is there a problem? So I wrote this article, I talked about my sex abuse for the first time. And I had not even told my counselor about my sexual abuse, I could not even articulate it. So it wasn’t like I had gotten to the point of spiritual maturity and emotional health, and I was finally deciding to make a case in the Washington Post. I had not even told my counselor; I could not even say it. But I went ahead and published this in the Washington Post, and it was a story of my abuse. And my counselor was like, Okay, I think we can work with this. But  this is potentially emotionally problematic, which it was, because I just laid my soul bare. I was like, guys, please. But then after I did that, there were some conservatives, prominent conservatives who were like, oh, Nancy French is just using her personal story to make a political point. And then later, when I would make any sort of statement about politics, these people would say things like, just because Nancy French seduced her pastor doesn’t mean that she should be able to speak about the Supreme Court or something like that.   Julie Roys  48:27 It’s infuriating. It’s infuriating, unbelievable.   NANCY FRENCH  48:30 I’ve never heard anything more evil than this; where you take the victim of pedophilia and say that they seduced a pastor. It’s so sinister. But these are people who y’all read, like, people read these writers, they’re associated with sort of legitimate magazines. I don’t know. I don’t read them. And they make fun of us. They make fun of our adopted daughter because she’s black. They say I had sex with men while my husband was deployed. And that’s how we got this baby. Not through adoption. And then for a time, they put fake-like photoshopped porn of me having sex with black men online and they would photoshop David’s face looking through the window at it, and they called him a cock-servative and obviously, he’s raising the enemy because we have a black child. So all black people are enemy. The evil that came at us with such a flood of evil. I could not even I still cannot even process it. That was all because we decided not to vote for Trump. So I mean, it’s like, I don’t wish it on my worst enemy.   Julie Roys  49:52 It’s unbelievable. It really is. And this is where, like you said, people continue to read some of these people. You call names in the book. You’re not doing it right now, that’s okay. But you can read the book. And you should.   NANCY FRENCH  50:03 Yeah, they’re so inconsequential to me. I was like, should I say their names or not? Because I don’t even like, I don’t even know what they look like. Like, I’m so not dialed in to whatever their thing is. So, you have this thing you’re like, should I elevate them by actually using their names? Or should I protect them? Because surely to goodness, in five minutes, they’re gonna realize they’re on the wrong side of this issue. You know, like, I feel bad for them. I don’t know what their deal is, or why they’re so obsessed with trying to attack victims of sex abuse. But it’s not like this is an anomaly. It’s not like the church otherwise really has it going on in terms of protecting children and women. So, anyway, yeah. So it’s hard to know what to do with these people. And I probably, I vacillated between wanting to name names and score settle. And I just decided not to do that generally, just because I think this story is important, the story is good in and of itself. And these people they’re not. They’re just tokens. They’re just indicative of the things that I wanted to talk about. And I wish them all the best. I hope all of us are progressing politically and spiritually and culturally, to the point where we get better. I feel like I’ve gotten better. And I know we all can, so I don’t even have animus toward them. But they really are on the wrong side of this.   Julie Roys  51:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I should say you name some names, but you do leave quite a few out. Although, if you put some things together, you can probably figure out who they are. But it is shocking what Christians are okay with and what I think this whole crazy political polarization has shown. And it’s been disorienting for a number of us Christians, I think, who are very surprised by it. For you, it cost you your job, your livelihood, essentially. I mean, you’re a ghostwriter, all of your clients were conservatives. We didn’t talk about it, but folks that you have to get the book and read the story about Mitt Romney and when you worked for Mitt Romney and the skiing story, I was laughing out loud. Oh, my gosh, I was laughing so hard.   NANCY FRENCH  52:33 I did include some anecdotes that do not reflect well on my virtue. There is a warning here.   Julie Roys  52:38 Oh that one! Yeah. Again, I’m just gonna tease that one. Because people have to read the book to read that one. And it’s hysterical. But  here you are. You’re basically an unemployed ghostwriter. And Gretchen Carlson comes to you and  tells you about an investigation you can do. It takes you like better part of a year, and you get paid like a big goose egg for it, like nothing. Which I have to, it reminds me of when I got fired at Moody, because that’s when I started investigating Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald. And I think that year, I did get paid for that article. But that’s like, the only thing that I wrote for any other publication because I wrote it for World Magazine. But I think I came out ahead when I did, the income minus like, expenses. I made $300 that year. I know. It was fantastic. But  it was that kind of years, I could really relate to all of a sudden, you get this story just dropped on your lap, you tried to get other people to write it, and nobody did. And so you’re faced with this responsibility. And I know this all too well, where you know, a story. You know, I went to journalism school, you didn’t even go to journalism school. You’re a very good writer, an excellent writer. And I think you have obviously excellent investigation skills. And although you had to develop some of I mean, you just went out and you just began investigating this. And you get yourself in so deep that you realize, oh, my goodness, I gotta publish this, right? I’ve got to do something. So talk about it. This was Kanakuk camp, the largest Christian camp, and you find out there is widespread, like over decades, sexual abuse going on. It’s known, and yet, nobody has been held responsible, other than the actual abuser.   NANCY FRENCH  53:34 That’s a lot! Yeah. And you’re being very kind in your description of this. So like, literally, I tried to get everybody to cover this. And I don’t even have a degree period, let alone a journalism degree. And when I realized that I had to be the one to do this because I’m almost 50 years old and I’m a grown person who knows about the abuse. When I realized that and this is after losing my job and being fired, either being fired by or quitting all of my gigs and no money.   Julie Roys  55:13 That’s how we become investigative journalists. We get fired and nothing else you can do.   NANCY FRENCH  55:18 Nothing else you can do. I Googled, what does off the record mean? I didn’t know that there were layers of that, you know this, you’re laughing. It’s so crazy. There’s like no background, anyway. So I googled that. That’s how I started my investigation. It was three years of just angst and agony. And I didn’t have anyone to help because I’m just myself. I really needed a team of like five people or something. But I worked around the clock for three years, and I proved everything that I wanted to prove basically. I only published like 3% of what I know. But yeah, there was a bad guy at Kanakuk camps. He was there. His name is Pete Newman, he abused an estimated hundreds of male campers, several of whom have died via suicide. We still get tips over these deaths. So anyway, awful. But the thing that I uncovered was that Kanakuk camps and its CEO Joe White, they received 10 years of Red Flag Warnings. So they knew for 10 years that this bad guy was convincing campers to disrobe and to be completely nude. He played basketball nude with them; he was on four wheelers nude with them. Which by the way, absolutely disgusting. Just that fact visualizing that they knew that. They knew that parents complained, one camper saw Pete Newman abusing another camper. And they told the Female Camper who was the witness that they didn’t think she was Christian enough to go to the camp. So Pete Newman is in jail. But all of the people who allowed this abuse to happen, they’re still running the camp to this day, nobody’s resigned, nobody’s been fired. The same people. And there’s 25,000 kids who go there per summer. So that’s why I’m so alarmed by it. If you Google Kanakuk, almost everything written about it is me, regrettably. It's  out there, and you can read about it. So I would encourage people and parents just to become aware of that. The reason I’m so sad and despondent over the issue is that I proved everything and the church, their reaction was laconic, is that the right word? I don’t even know what that means. They were not as alarmed as I thought they should be.   Julie Roys  57:38 Apathetic for sure. I mean, they just didn’t care. It’s callous. I mean, I have had investigations that turned out great. Like James McDonald, Harvest Bible Chapel. He got fired, all the elders stepped down. The Ravi Zacharias investigation, I think, pretty much it’s well established. But most of Christendom now realizes he was a sexual predator. John MacArthur, I don’t know what more I could have proved. I really don’t. And it’s been shocking to me that conservative, you know, pundits like Megan Basham still to this day, you know, will defend John MacArthur and I’m like, have you read this? I mean, we have so much documentation. We have video evidence. I mean, we have handwritten letters from him telling the teenage girl whose father molested her that she should forgive him and that he’ll stay on staff, and we know he stayed on staff three more years and then went on to pastor for decades more. And John MacArthur did nothing. It drives you absolutely insane. And you think what on earth is the matter with people? Like what is wrong with you? Nothing has been done to John MacArthur. Nothing has been done to Joe White. Christians continue to just send their kids to a camp where clearly they’re not being protected. How do you come to terms with this, Nancy?   NANCY FRENCH  59:01 I don’t. I’m so depressed. I’ve been in a bad mood for many years. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to resolve it. I’m so depressed over it. And then the Kanakuk investigation dropped like a few days after the SBC was revealed to have all these sexual predators in a database conveniently tracking all the sexual predators and keeping them from the cops. I have no answers and I have decided that I cannot be responsible for the church and their collective inaction on this. That I am not responsible. I cannot exact justice. I just can’t. I am standing on the side of the road with this giant sign over my head saying, justice is coming. Justice is important. One day this will be better. It is not today. But I’ve just decided I’m just going to talk about it. People make fun of me because I’m a one-note song. If you follow me on Twitter or on any of the social media channels, I’m like, Hey, guys, today in Kanakuk saga number 550 million, I’m talking about this, because I have so much information. I published, like 3% of what I know. And so I just want to warn parents and I have, and so I feel comfortable with that. I will not stop talking about it. Lawsuits have been filed based on my investigative work, what I was able to uncover, and I trust lawyers more than I trust the actions of the church in terms of holding people accountable, which, you know, is sad. But I am thankful for attorneys and for brave victims and survivors speaking out. So I’m very thankful. But it took me a long time to get to that point and, I’m not okay with it. I’m sad and depressed. I’m sad about the Christian celebrities who are associated with Kanakuk camps, who won’t speak out. I’m sad about the parents who send their kids to Kanakuk camps. And I’m sad just for all the grieving families who’ve lost family members because of this abuse, it’s awful. And I’m so inspired by the families who choose to say that their loved one who died via suicide,  was a victim at Kanakuk camps. A brave family in Texas did that first and that started all of it.   Julie Roys  1:01:26 Well, you’ve done a Herculean task by digging into that, and if you want a place to publish, you know, the other 97%. If you get well enough, we would love to publish it. I know we published. I mean, based on your research, really, we’ve sort of rewritten some of this stuff, but it’s really well done, really well documented, and you’ve done a service for the church. And you’ve warned people. I figure that’s all we can do, is we can warn people, and then what people do with it, at the end of the day, we have to you’re right, we have to let that go. Because that’s in God’s hands. And we did our job. We warned them, we told them the truth, but it is frustrating. You said, There’s a quote that I just want to read of yours. It’s so good. And I so related to it. You said throughout my life, I desperately wanted to identify the good people and the bad people. So I could walk more confidently among them. Befriending the good ones avoiding the bad ones. I categorized people into tribes, according to their political views, their church attendance, and their voting patterns. But this line was fuzzier than I’d originally believed. I feel that the people we thought were the good guys aren’t necessarily the good guys. I still hold on to my faith, I still have the same convictions. I hold them differently now. I hold them differently. And I think there’s an openness to people that I wouldn’t necessarily be open to before. But talk about where you’re at now with kind of maybe seeing a little more gray than you did before or good, where you made might have seen bad and how you’re processing that?   NANCY FRENCH  1:03:22 Well, I mean, probably the most interesting and honest answer is I realized how that the line separating good and evil runs through my own heart, as Alexander Solzhenitsyn said. And I was guilty of a bunch of stuff. I was politically acrimonious; I was mean to my Democrat neighbors. Mean meaning in my rhetoric. Like I help people own the LIBS or whatever. But I think there’s something very beautiful about aging, I’m almost 50. I do not care about my brand management. For all of you listening, I am not one of the good guys on the good side of the line, and I do all this stuff right. I do some things right. Probably hold a lot of beliefs that I won’t hold in 10 years, hopefully, because you know, you change and you get better and you want to allow space for you to get better, for your party to get better, for your church to get better. I think it’s interesting how you say you hold your beliefs differently. I am just so thankful for being able to not protect your brand. To the church. You’re not God’s PR branch. He doesn’t need you. He doesn’t need you in terms of his marketing. You can embrace the truth of whatever is uncomfortable, and you can talk about it without damaging the gospel, without damaging the church. In fact, you’re protecting the church when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting children. When you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting women when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting men. And so you don’t have to say like, oh, well, I’m a Christian, so therefore, I cannot criticize anything that is happening in the church. In fact, that’s biblically the opposite of what we are actually commanded to do. And so I have been guilty of being politically acrimonious and uncharitable towards my neighbor, not protecting the reputations of my neighbor. And I changed. And so I fully believe all of us can change. But that’s not to say that I’m the arbiter of all that is good. And now these people are bad, but it’s just all mixed up. And I feel like we have such capacity for both good and evil. And there’s part of you that is sort of like sobered by that. And then part of me is like, liberated. It’s like, okay, well, that explains a lot. That’s why I’m so petty. That’s why I yell at the kids when I don’t mean to, that’s when I get frus

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Guest Bios Show Transcript A bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? To consider such questions, Baylor University professor Dr. David Pooler, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse, joins Julie Roys for this challenging but crucial discussion. They examine the difficult story of these two worship leaders in light of this often-misunderstood issue. Adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened here? Misty claims she's not a victim. And Kevin was not in a formal role of authority over Misty. But he was more than 20 years older than her. Past articles reveal Misty admired Kevin's songs and his intimate style of leading worship. And Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. Also, in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of “adulterous” relationships, describing his advances with women in ways that sound abusive. He wrote, “I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women, not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure.” Regarding Misty, she has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Follow the shocking revelations concerning IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle and the ministry's response at this link. Many questions surround what happened with Misty and Kevin. Drawing from his extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, Dr. Pooler gives insight into these complex issues. Julie also addresses criticisms of her reporting, explaining the struggle of how to report this story, the ethics of journalism, and how this report helps shed light on the larger narrative. Guests Dr. David Pooler Dr. David Pooler is Professor and Director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse; Advocacy and Research Collaborative at Baylor University in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. As a national expert on Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, he brings insights about this phenomenon through research and his clinical practice with survivors. Dr. Pooler has a B.A. in psychology and religion from Lee University and earned the MSW and Ph.D in Social Work at the University of Louisville. He is married to Cheryl, who is also a faculty member in the School of Social Work at Baylor, and they have two adult daughters.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSDAVID POOLER, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:03Our bombshell report on the alleged affair between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards sent shockwaves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were both of them consensual partners? Or was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to discuss not just our report on Kevin and Misty, but the often-misunderstood issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. This is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened with Kevin and Misty? Kevin was not in any formal role of authority over Misty, but he was more than 20 years older than her. And we know from published articles that Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. As I reported in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of adulterous relationships. Yet when you hear the way he described those relationships, they sound abusive. Prosch writes, and I quote, I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure. The very gift God gave me to bless others with, I used to manipulate and seduce these women. We also know that Misty has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer or IHOP in Kansas City. And if you haven’t been following the shocking revelations concerning IHOP founder Mike Bickle, I encourage you to go to the investigations tab at my website, JULIEROYS.COM. And there we have all of our stories on IHOP easily accessible.   Julie Roys  02:10 Well, again, there are a lot of questions surrounding what happened with Misty and Kevin, our reporting on Misty and Kevin, and this whole issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. And joining me for this discussion is a well-known expert on the topic, Dr. David Pooler. Dr. Pooler is a professor at Baylor University who’s done extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, and I’m so looking forward to speaking further with him about this topic.   Julie Roys  02:36 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:39 Well again, joining me is Dr. David Pooler, a professor at the Diana R Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University. Dr. Pooler has more than 15 years of social work practice experience and has done extensive work among at risk and abused children. But most pertinent to our discussion today is the research he’s done on adult clergy sexual abuse and his desire to develop healthy church congregations. So Dr. Pooler, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.   DAVID POOLER 04:09 I am super glad to be here. It’s a real privilege and an honor that I get to talk about something that really matters.   Julie Roys  04:15 Now it does matter, and I just so appreciate your interest in abuse, but also in the way that I first met you at the RESTORE Conference, which to me, I was just kind of blown away when I saw you had signed up for it. I’m like, Oh, my goodness, Dr. Pooler is coming and, and he should be teaching, I should be like sitting under him. And yet you came just to learn and observe, and I just appreciate that.   DAVID POOLER 04:38 I did. I wanted to be around people that it’s almost like the folks that show up that RESTORE  are sort of my people if that makes sense. It’s sort of a hodgepodge of people who have been injured and wounded and are still finding their way and wanting things to be better and on some level looking for church reform, right and in ways that we often aren’t thinking about reform. And so I do think that this whole topic of adult clergy sexual abuse kind of sits in this strange place of the church just does not know what to do with. But yet there’s a lot of room for hope and healing and change to occur. That’s what I’m devoting my life to do.   Julie Roys  05:24 Well, I appreciate that. After we published this article on Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards on what I had termed in the article an affair, and I know that’s a very questionable word, given the context of everything, but you reached out to me, just with some concerns, some questions, and just in such a gracious manner, and we were able to have a zoom call about that. And as we’re having this call, I’m thinking, this is such a profitable conversation, I want to make this public. And so I invited you to do this podcast with me. I think this is going to be outstanding, and I appreciate just your demeanor in coming to me about that. But let me just, instead of me trying to paraphrase you, what were some of the concerns that you had with the article and with even how things were presented?   DAVID POOLER 06:12 Sure. When I read it, just in my study of adult clergy sexual abuse, I could immediately tell there was so much more than could be reported on there. These abusive systems and when I say abuse of systems where we have sort of a patriarchal leader, sort of men are elevated, and we have an issue around clericalism, where it’s elevating the priorities and needs of certain leaders to the exclusion of others. Anyway, but when I read the term affair and I’m like, for there to actually be an affair, there would have to be consent, people would have to be on equal power levels. And I’m like, I wonder if that’s really the case here. So I had issues with the term affair, because one of the things that’s really interesting is that there are 14 states that actually criminalize, have state statutes, where a pastoral leader if they abuse an adult under their care, they can be charged with a crime. In some states, it’s a misdemeanor, and some it’s a felony. California is a current state where there’s legislation happening right now, that’s going to be going through this session, where clergy will be added to the list of other helping professions around that. So I had issues with the term affair, primarily. And I also just was a little worried, too, that we could end up doing some victim blaming in this particular story, blaming Misty as if she’s completely complicit. And again, I’m just wondering, to what extent was position authority, the nature of the relationship, the gender? Are those things leveraged, exploited in this long history? I know Misty has been a part of that movement for years. And what way has she been, you know, her thinking has been sort of distorted, and shifted to come alongside and support leaders no matter what, and protect them at the exclusion of her own self and her own needs? There’s so much more complexity and nuance with this. And thankfully, your response was just amazing and led to this opportunity. Because in a sense, the article then gave an opportunity for a deeper, more meaningful conversation that can expand this and get more people talking about what is adult clergy sexual abuse? can pastors abuse adults and people under their care? even another minister under their care? My research with a resounding yes to all of that. And I’ve seen many cases where there has been a positional leader under another leader who actually is abused. And I’ve seen the system’s hold them equally accountable and like, but that’s not okay. And if you’ll allow me, I’ll share a little bit about what has framed my thinking around power and consent. And some of that actually has to do with the secular world. The secular world is way ahead of where the church is, quite frankly, when it looks at power differentials and consent, in relationships, interpersonal relationships, where there’s a lot of connection, and there’s a lot at stake. For example, with a therapist or a doctor, or a nurse, or my profession, a social worker. And so we have boards that guide our behavior. And so in no situation, would there ever be a case whereas a social worker, I had a sexual connection or relationship with someone that I was working with, and it would never be called consensual it never happened, because it would be clearly labeled as misconduct and inappropriate.   DAVID POOLER 09:42 So not only could I lose my license as a social worker, I would then be held accountable. Generally, every state has a state statute or law to hold a helping professional accountable. Again, that’s where ministry is so far behind, and I honestly think it’s interesting our separation of church and state is actually part of the problem. Because what happens is the church has just not been forced to keep up with evolving new ways of thinking about power, and consent, and relationships and boundaries. And that really, it’s always the person with more power, it’s their job and responsibility to delineate what a healthy relationship is going to be. It’s their responsibility to outline the boundaries, it’s their responsibility to maintain boundaries. But yet in the church, we have done so much victim blaming. A pastoral leader is sexual with someone that is dependent on them, and then they blame that person and says, Yeah, they just did this, that or the other. A lot of the purity culture stuff, a lot of our rape culture, quite frankly, in this society, and just, Oh, what was she wearing? What was she doing? She must have been the temptress, those kinds of things. So that sort of sets the stage for this conversation about adult clergy sexual abuse.   Julie Roys  11:04 And I don’t disagree with you on one thing that you just said. And in fact, I think my first introduction to adult clergy sexual abuse was hearing Lori Anne Thompson’s story. And if you don’t know Lori Anne’s story, she was one of the victims of Ravi Zacharias. And the way that she was manipulated, the way he found out her past abuse, and then used that to basically become a father figure. And then to exploit that, to get her to do something that she would not have normally done. But it was so predatory. It was so abusive, and I could see it once I heard the story. It was like, Oh, my goodness, of course. And we’ve had entire podcast we’ve done on this, I did one with Katie Roberts, who was, you know, in a similar type situation, and now she started an entire organization, helping adult victims of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so this is something I’m familiar with. And so if somebody asked me, do I think Misty Edwards was a victim? I would say, absolutely, 100 percent, I think she was a victim. What I found difficult with this story, normally, the victim in the stories that I report, is the source. It’s the person who comes to me with their story, and says, will you please report this story for me of this person that harmed me? Here I have a situation first time ever, honestly, where I have somebody coming to me, who is saying she’s not a victim. And I’m having to deal with a very complex story where there were two stories in this particular case; one, which was I referred to as the other secret because you couldn’t tell one story without having that story, because they were intertwined. But I didn’t tell that story, because it involved what to me was very clearly what you just described, it was abuse. And I wasn’t going to tell that story out of respect for the victim, because it was clearly abuse. With Kevin and Misty, again, my opinion, it was abuse. And so now I felt like it was one of those situations where you have two competing virtues and values. So on one hand, as an advocate, your highest commitment is to the victim, right? You’re there to protect the victim, the survivor, right? As a journalist, your responsibility is to protect the public, it is to serve the public interest. So you have two people, Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards. Both have very large platforms. I didn’t know I’ll be honest; I didn’t know Misty before I started reporting on IHOP and then I discovered she has a global following. She has recorded seven albums with I don’t know if they’re all with 4Runner Music. I think most of them are which is IHOP’s label. And you have Kevin Prosch who, even though he has a past, he confessed these adulterous relationships which when honestly, when you read about them, they sound like they were abused, because he clearly used his position and power in these cases. I don’t know whether any were congregants at his church or not. But certainly he has a predatory pattern and likely was abused in these cases.   Julie Roys  14:09 But again, you have two people in positions of power, at least ostensibly, right? And you have Misty who’s on the executive leadership team at IHOP, which is their highest level of leadership. You have her saying she’s gonna go to Israel and go serve in prayer houses there. And I know that people are emulating her worship style – a worship style that frankly, she got from Kevin, she talks about this romantic worship this intimate worship. I was in the Vineyard movement; parts of that I agree with it and parts of it, I go, this is like getting a little icky. And so I think there were just so many factors and then having on top of it. You have someone like Brent Steeno, who’s a former IHOP staffer who’s saying I was abused in this I was harmed because I was smeared by these folks. There were just these complex dynamics and as a journalist, I felt and I know a lot of people were like, there’s a number of journalists who got this story and didn’t report it. Actually, from what I’ve heard from Brent. Judy at the Star, for example, Casey Stars done some excellent work on this. Just hadn’t figured out how to report it. But from journalistically she was like, That was a good story. And I didn’t hear that directly from her. But I’m just as a journalist, again, I felt a responsibility to the public to report this story, because they were two public figures. And because and why didn’t I report it as abuse? Were there some red flags there? Did Kevin have a predatory pattern? Yes, he had a predatory pattern. Was he a celebrity? And did she look up to him? Yes, but the argument can be made, she was just as big a celebrity as he was. There was an age differential, but we can’t automatically say that because there was an age differential. That was.   DAVID POOLER 15:55 Yeah, that was abuse, right?   Julie Roys  15:56 You can’t do that. And then, and then you have just this blackmail element to the story, which clearly when there’s blackmail, that’s abuse. That happened in my understanding five years into the relationship. So it definitely became coercive,  but I’ll be honest, I didn’t know whether I could even report the blackmail aspect of this story, because I have one witness telling me that she said it was blackmail, and I have one text that seems to support that where she said she wishes she could destroy all the devices. But it was pretty circumstantial. And I’m glad I reported it, because I wanted to put the clues in there to folks that they could look at that and say, whoa, wait, this was not okay. But at the same time, journalistically, I just felt like my hands were tied in this particular case.   Julie Roys  16:47 Now, having said that, could I have done it better? Could I do it better? I’m always open to that. Yeah. And that’s why you have these kinds of conversations afterwards to say, okay, how can we do this better? I’ll just give you a chance to reflect on that.   DAVID POOLER 17:01 The thing that really stands out to me that’s worthy of discussion on this is her reporting that she’s not a victim. And I think that’s worth taking a deeper dive into, because I’ve met survivors at various points along their healing journey, and many early on, would not call themselves a victim, on some level. They would blame themselves, possibly, but not see themselves as a victim, certainly not understand that they were being abused. Like, how should I say this, it would cause so much cognitive dissonance if they’re not along in their healing journey, or don’t have a name for what’s going on. Because, honestly, to come to grips with the fact that I had been harmed and injured to that level, by someone that I had trusted my life with, my spiritual life with my mediator, if you will, with God. And I’ve trusted that and to come to a deep and abiding realization that I had been betrayed and exploited, and sexually used and potentially sexually assaulted by this person? That’s like too much. But what I’ve noticed is that along the healing journey, as the awakening and awareness happens, they can then point back and say, absolutely, I was a victim. So that’s one of the big unknowns with Missy’s journey. Six months from now, two years from now, will the story be different? Will she then say, yes, indeed, I was a victim, and here’s how I was victimized, and here’s how I was injured. But most of the instincts of people is to protect their abusers, to protect the church because they’ve been socialized to do that. It’s almost like if this gets out, or it’s known that we’ve, of course, the perpetrators would use the word affair, if we’ve had an affair that would cause people to fall away from the Lord and leave. So they feel this enormous amount of responsibility to protect the institution, to protect the leader, to protect their abuser. And, of course, to me, that’s one of the big question marks at play in the story with Misty.   Julie Roys  19:08 And interestingly, I had a number of conversations with Misty some on the record some off the record, some I can’t talk about, but I will say right before I published the story, I called Misty, and I told her, I know that you don’t believe you’re a victim. I believe you are. And I also told her, I’m not going to report the one thing that we didn’t report, because it would to me expose a victim. That’s their story to come forward with if they want to. But we had those discussions, and it was just, it was heartbreaking to me personally. Misty’s one of the most tragic figures in this whole story, and if you know anything about what’s happened with her and I think a larger context that I couldn’t tell in this story, your heart can’t help but break for Misty and this whole situation.   Julie Roys  19:58 One thing that’s challenging for me too though is, as a reporter, I have to report what people tell me. So if somebody says they’re not a victim, I have to say that person says they’re not a victim. And I know too as advocates, and this whole advocate space is a little bit like the wild West right now. We have some people that are really trained. I spoke of Lori Anne Thompson, she’s someone that went and got her master’s degree is very educated on real advocacy and how to come alongside people. But I remember at our 2022 RESTORE conference, she talked about advocates speaking for victims, and victims often say, speak for me, because I have no voice. And she’s like, Excuse me, unless you’re dead, you have a voice. You have a voice, and the job of advocates is to come alongside the victim, and allow the victim to tell their story, not to put words in their mouth or to tell them their story for them. And so it becomes very challenging when you have someone who’s maybe they’re living in an alternate reality, where they have taken blame for something they shouldn’t take blame for, or they have seen this in a certain context, where they see protecting the legacy of someone that you go, are you kidding me? protecting the legacy of this person, who’s an abuser? Why would you want to protect that legacy?   Julie Roys  21:14 But how can we, as a reporter, I have certain rules I have to abide by. As advocates, there’s a little more leeway. But how can we be helpful in this stage with people who, and right now I’m sure Misty is representative of an awful lot of people who may have been victimized by a system or by a person that don’t see themselves as victims?   DAVID POOLER 21:37 Helping people move from victim to survivor is huge. But I feel like I did something wrong, I’m really not a victim, I participated in this, right? Believe it or not, I actually still have some control. That’s one of the things I’ve noticed as a clinician. But when I say I’ve actually been victimized, that means I literally could have done nothing to stop it. It’s like it literally happened. I am powerless. That doesn’t mean their powerless going forward. But just the acknowledgement of the nature of the wounding and the injury, was this was totally done to me by someone else. And I think that’s really hard for people. For Misty and/or lots of other people in that sort of space, right? And I think part of it is having conversations like this, being able to have an adequate definition of adult clergy sexual abuse, to actually say, hey, it’s when a leader uses their power position, their authority to basically gain access sexually to someone under their care, or that they’re working with or supporting in some way. That person is dependent on them in some way. And they use that dependence as a way to be sexual with them. That’s adult clergy sexual abuse. And interestingly if someone’s 16, or 20, there’s nothing magical that happens when someone is 18. The same tactic someone uses to groom and exploit a 15 year old is the same that they would use to groom and exploit and be sexual with someone who’s 25. It’s the same dynamics. And so uncovering those dynamics, talking about how people are groomed, because that’s the thing, abusive leaders use the language, the culture, Bible verses, and even their authority, their pastoral authority, God is in this. So the Holy Spirit has told me; they use all that language to gain sexual access to somebody. And then when you look at that, it’s just grotesque, right? It’s predatory on the deepest level. Being able to just honestly have the conversation for the church to say, this is indeed happening in our midst. And we have very little in place to detect abusive people. We have almost nothing set up within our religious structures where people can go to report it, or a system that’s going to listen to it or believe the person.   DAVID POOLER 23:56 In my research, one of the things that’s most damaging, actually, to survivors is the church response. If that makes sense. It’s not just the nature of the injury itself. But it’s the way the institution fails to respond adequately, by believing them and supporting them and validating them and helping them get help, and then holding the abusive leader accountable or removing them from ministry or out of the way so they can’t harm anybody else. They we just tend to continue to elevate the abusive person and shove the victim right out the door, right? In the playbook of the evangelical world, but I’ll be honest, it’s beyond the evangelical world. I mean, there’s a case I’m involved with right now, where I’m going to be an expert witness, if you will, and it’s a much more progressive denomination. But the narrative is the same, oh, it was consensual. And it clearly was not. We really have a problem. And I’ll give you just a quick statistic. This is really old, but Diana Garland’s research going back to a study in 2009. She actually looked at what percentage of women who regularly attend church had an unwanted sexual advance from their church leader, and the unwanted sexual advance was framed in such a way, that it would be clearly wrong, if someone found out they would really have concerns about what had happened. But if you extrapolate this out to the average sized church and sort of the gender makeup of your average sized church. So if you take an average sized Church of 400, there would be seven women in every church of 400, in the United States, where this has happened. So again, it’s about 3%. So it’s not a huge amount, right? But it’s also something that we have to take very seriously. It is indeed happening. And I would say every church has someone who’s experienced some version of sexual exploitation or harassment by a church leader. We can have every year we do domestic violence months and things, but we ought to celebrate and honor those people who’ve been injured by clergy and say, you are among us. You are here. We care about you. We care about your experiences, and we know you’ve been injured within the church. And we’re doing something about it instead of just ignoring the problem.   Julie Roys  26:13 Well in this environment that you’re describing, where obviously we have predators, obviously, I’ll say allegedly, but it’s been certainly we have so many victims right now, or alleged victims that have come forth and said, Mike Bickle abused me, started when I was 14, or 15, or 19, depending on the particular story. But this seems like a man who was a serial predator, and preyed on the women that were under him, and had this persona of being hearer, and God spoke directly to him. And the angel Gabriel showed up, how could you possibly question this man of God? And then you have this whole history, this prophetic history, that seems like it was almost put on the level of Scripture. Like, you can’t question this history, like, this is what’s happened. And it was really so grandiose. I’m reading this, and I’m going, Whoa, like, Why didn’t red flags go up? And yet I heard from somebody recently who was like, yeah, it probably would have but he was accepted in mainstream evangelicalism, which to me is a whole other discussion. Like, why did nobody see that this was a problem? These are really grandiose things that he is claiming and stating very early on, and selling to impressionable young adults, men and women who are a part of this.   Julie Roys  27:30 But let’s talk about specifically at some place like IHOP where, and I’m not gonna say that abuse happens more at charismatic churches than non-charismatic, I’ve seen plenty at non charismatic. But I have to say, when you think that your leader is like God, in direct line with God, and you have this Moses model of leading, which is really an Old Testament, I won’t get into all of that. But I mean, this idea that God speaks to  your pastor like he spoke to Moses, and now he’s the Prophet and the word for you, or he’s the apostle and the word for you. And again, I see in the New Testament, a totally different thing where the gifts are available to everyone. There isn’t like one person who has a direct line to God. We all have a direct line to God in that sense. But speak to this particular system. What, again, we’re outsiders, although you are in the Church of God, which started with Assemblies of God, right? And the two were very connected.   DAVID POOLER 28:24 Same origins. Yeah, around the turn of the last century.   Julie Roys  28:27 Okay. And I was in Vineyard. There’s a lot that I absolutely love about charismatic denominations, and I love about the charismatic movement, and I’m not a Cessationist. But at the same time, I do think there are some things that are particular to these systems that can lend themselves to this kind of clergy sexual abuse.   DAVID POOLER 28:48 Absolutely. Yeah. Where I literally go back to is the clericalism. again. And I think it can be heightened in spaces like this, where you have a central charismatic leader, whose authority is almost unquestioned. Because what ends up happening is there’s a high level of dependence on everyone upon what they say, and what they do. What they say is okay, what they say is not okay. And it’s a diminishing of power among everyone else around their sense of personal agency, their ability to think critically, ask questions, dissent, push back, right? So none of that is tolerated. So when a system like that, if that leader crosses the line and wants to be sexual and says, it’s God’s will, no one’s gonna question, right? I mean, the system is set up to sort of make perfect victims; that it’s not just the IHOP system. There’s plenty of others, but we’re talking about that it literally sets people up to be exploited and victimized. I don’t mean to oversimplify it, but that’s it in a nutshell right there. And so one of the things I suggest in my research is a much deeper level of power sharing between leadership and laity, or congregants., right? A much more robust way of holding people accountable.   DAVID POOLER 30:12 The other thing I’ve struggled with is, so how do congregants benefit from clericalism? They don’t have to do as much work, they don’t have to do as much critical thinking, they don’t have to be at the table, being My Brother’s Keeper, really. They get to sort of offload all of that responsibility on to the leader. And the fact is, that’s not a great system. We need a much better system where people are empowered in congregations to really all be concerned about abuse, all be concerned about exploitation, and flip it to the other side to be concerned about flourishing, and well-being. And how do we have a really healthy congregation, right? Then if everyone’s really not at the table talking about that, and one leader is trying to tell you what a healthy thing is? You’re probably not. It’s probably going away off into the ditch, which is what we’ve actually seen had been happening at IHOP for years. There were people being injured and torn up and ground up under the machinery of this institution, right? In a sense people waylaid and victimized for years. And it just finally came to light. Because any dissent anyone speaking up or questioning or trying to bring it to light would have immediately been pushed out of the system. The system wouldn’t tolerate that.   Julie Roys  30:12 I’m trying to figure out how though, like when you’re in a system like that, I mean, you read the Scripture, it’s pretty clear. I mean, you have someone like Mike Bickle married, clearly shouldn’t be engaging in outside sexual activity. And yet, if you’re the recipient of his sexual advances, how do you put that dissonance together? And, and I know people are pushing back and saying, Well, okay, how did they not know that this was wrong? Or why when you’re in a system like that, what happens just psychologically, to put these two seemingly contradictory things together? How do you do that?   DAVID POOLER 32:09 Yeah. So honestly, your question gets at the grooming process. And what I’ve noticed with these predatory folks is they start creating a culture where more physical touch is okay. And most of the predators will test the people out, they’ll do a prolonged hug or other things. And they do this over months and months. And eventually, I can’t tell you how many times this happened. It would be so interesting to find out how many folks that I have this happened to, they’ll be like, Can I kiss your hand? and then can I kiss your neck? And then eventually, it’s a kiss on the lips. So it’s not just, you know, the adage of the frog boiling in the water; you don’t just drop them in the boiling water, it jumps out, or whatever. You slowly turn it up. These predatory folks have mastered grooming, and they will slowly blur and break boundaries over months and sometimes even years until they finally have the person have full access to them. And they’ll use whatever playbook they need, including the things I just talked about. But again, adding in the Scripture and those things. So by the time the person is, if you will, actually being sexual with the leader, they’re no longer trusting their intuition. So anytime someone’s intuition said something’s wrong, right? That’s the other thing about those systems is that intuition is tossed out like your gut reaction, that something is wrong, is squashed over and over and over to the point it doesn’t work anymore. So you don’t trust yourself at all. You’ve been socialized to trust the leader and their perspective.   DAVID POOLER 33:36 So in a sense, that’s how that dissonance occurs, its slowly broken down over time. So by the time sexual activity is actually happening, even though the person so honestly, the victim is actually I’ve heard this so many times, they literally feel insane. They  feel completely insane. Like, this can’t be okay, but yet, I’m being told it’s okay. What is wrong with me? It is an internal sort of soul injury of dissonance that’s ripping them apart. But yet they’ve been taught to conform, to stay in church and to keep trusting the leader no matter what because, of course, they know what they’re doing. God has called them, and God is in charge of this. All these things that get used to injure people. And this is the stuff we’ve got to really be talking about. In fact, I actually have a doctoral student right now. We’re working on a paper right now to identify the grooming tactics. So what we hope to do is spit in the soup of the playbook of predators, quite frankly, so that their playbook doesn’t work anymore. Maybe they’ll come up with new tactics, but at least the ones that have been regularly used and the survivors I’ve interviewed that won’t be accessible anymore. We’ll know how they do it. And so that when someone sees a leader doing something or saying something, they can trust their intuition that this information is now actually out for the public to consume and use to inform them to be, in a sense, a better citizen or a better participant or a better congregate, talk about this in the secular world, sort of the non-protecting bystander. We have so much of that going on right now in the church, where it’s like, I see something, I wonder, is that okay? Or when the pastor did that? But we’re just taught to where we don’t protect, we don’t intervene, we just stay back. Because that behavior of getting in and getting it messy, we don’t like that. But I honestly think that kind of messiness, and questioning, critical thinking is a part of what actually would make our churches way healthier.   Julie Roys  35:38 The problem is, you’re not allowed to question. If you say there is a problem, then you are the problem. I’ve interviewed so many people from IHOP, who said, Yeah, I would see women go into Mike’s office and spend an inordinate amount of time and like we didn’t have access to Mike like that. But why did these women who weren’t even necessarily very high up in the organization, were going into his office and spending all this time? Why are there locks on the inside of the office? Some of these things that are just bizarre, but he had ways of dealing with that. And I’m sure with his victims, when I’ve heard this from victims who thought they were in love their abuser, think they’re in love with their abuser. And then also think like with Ravi, it was like, you can’t expose me I need this because I’m under so much pressure. And I’m just human. And if I don’t have this kind of support from you, then I just can’t function and you’re critical to my functioning. And if you say anything, then oh, do you want to bring down the whole apologetics movement, or in this case, the whole prayer movement? You want that to be on you that you’ve just brought that all down? Even now, people are protecting the prayer movement. They’re protecting Mike’s legacy. They’re protecting something that has been shown to be fraudulent, not that the whole prayer movement is fraudulent. But certainly, whatever requires Mike Bickle as its foundation is not legitimate.   Julie Roys  37:00 What does a bystander do, though, and these are my sources that I talk to almost every day, right? And Brent in the story was a bystander, right? He’s a bystander, but he wasn’t just a bystander, if you believe his story, and I obviously did believe his story. Misty divulged a lot of these things to him, but then also confines him to secrecy. Like all of a sudden now, I remember when I was in youth ministry, when people would be like, I’m going to tell you something, but I don’t want you to tell anybody else. And I’d be like, no. Timeout timeout. You know, if there are certain things if you tell me, I’m responsible to tell somebody else. I’m trusting that you’re telling me because you trust me. And I will try to be trustworthy, but that trustworthiness may mean that I have to tell somebody about what you’re going to tell me. Let me just put that out there ground rules before you tell me anything further. Here’s Brent in this situation, though. Now he’s stuck with this secret. And what does he do? It’s ripping him up. It’s destroying him. What does he do? And what do bystanders do, or witnesses do in a situation where they see abuse? And if they come forward, as in this case, and this is a whole other dynamic too which maybe a follow up question to this is when the victim becomes part of the abusive system and begins harming other people? But what do you do as a bystander in that situation?   DAVID POOLER 38:20 Yeah, yeah, the complications are built into all of this. There’s not a pass, there’s not the one thing that you’re supposed to do. But I do think staying silent is not okay. And doing nothing is not okay. We have to do something. And I do think many people who bring up or confront a system where there’s a lot of power held in one person, or bring up something that’s of a major concern, they’re going to get injured by that system, because that system is protecting itself. And it’s protecting the power and the control that it has. And part of it is when someone’s bringing up something or pointing out something that’s wrong, or where there’s injury, it’s a threat to the system, if the system is that unhealthy, and it is abusive, it’s we don’t want to get found out. Yeah, so there’s no simple answer other than Yeah, I think people are going to have to take the risk and put their own neck out for someone else. Again, so anytime you stand up for someone who’s being injured, the likelihood of you being injured, too, is very high. It takes courage.   Julie Roys  39:29 It is and so often they do what they’re told to do in the church, which is go to your leaders within your organization. And sadly, those leaders within the organization they’ve been groomed to protect. And so they are going to as you say, they’re going to harm you. And people often say who made you judge and jury as journalists where we report on a lot of the stories? For one I’m not judge and jury. I report the facts. You’re the judge and jury. You are.   DAVID POOLER 39:59 Yeah. people make sense of what you’re reporting. Yeah,   Julie Roys  40:01 That’s right. I report the facts, you make sense of it. And I wish we didn’t have to exist. I wish the church had some sort of structures in place to police itself. And it does in some denominations. They don’t seem to be working very well, these structures that we have in place. I hope at some point, we at least I love that there’s 14 states where adult clergy sexual abuse is a crime as it should be. I hope that more states are like this. But it seems to me at the very least, there should be some sort of professional, just like when you’re a doctor, or therapist or whatever, there aren’t professional standards. I know, as a journalist, there are professional standards. You can go and read them, where the society professional journalists have put it out. This is what we adhere to, this is what we do. And we have to adhere to them. And if you don’t, then you can be disqualified. Do we need to get some system in place for licensing pastors?   DAVID POOLER 40:58 Wouldn’t that be great? The fact is, I think there is no way probably even in my lifetime that our society we can get there. Because currently what we have are different denominations that have varying ways of here’s the education that you know, some denominations might require having a Master of Divinity for ordination, some might require nothing. You can have a high school diploma or not even and go through a process. And you can get a ministerial ordination certificate online for free. It is the absolute Wild West, a completely unregulated space. Even though I agree, ideally, in an ideal world, absolutely, we should. But again, that’s the very nature of the question is why we have such a huge problem in our religious institutions right now is because of our lack of accountability. And so many people with power surround themselves by Yes men, yes women, yes people, right? who aren’t going to hold them accountable, who are just a part of that system of control and power and money. I mean, I don’t want to be too cynical. But I also want to be incredibly realistic. There are way too many leaders, if you will, doing what they do because it’s unregulated. They’re free to do whatever they want to do. They have an enormous amount of power and influence and money. And they’re going to keep doing it because it benefits them in an incredible way.   Julie Roys  42:26 Yeah. And unfortunately, I think there’s far too many pastors out there that don’t understand this and don’t understand this dynamic. And so they’re restoring these abusive pastors who, again, it’s not just a sin problem, I mean, there’s something deep, deeply wrong when someone is a predator like this and a serial predator. You don’t just confess it, and then go back to another church. Stephen Strang, who’s the CEO of Charisma Media, Charisma Magazine. He went on before Mike has given like a half apology that ever really isn’t an apology. He hasn’t even come close to owning this and repenting from this. And Stephen Strang saying, Oh, isn’t it a noble thing to restore people? I’ve always thought that was a noble thing. And so we just keep restoring these pastors. Talk about the pastor as a predator; should someone who’s abused somebody in this way ever be restored to a position of trust?   DAVID POOLER 43:26 In my opinion, after having done so much research on this, almost never. Like that would be the exception rather than the rule if anyone could ever return to ministry and influence people the way they had. Part of your question gets at something that I think we weaponize, which is forgiveness. We are actually using and weaponizing forgiveness as a shortcut. And actually, then what we do is we put the burden on the person who’s been injured, you just need to forgive. And once you’ve forgiven, then we can restore. It’s almost like forgiven, once we hear you’re okay, again, and that we’ll  put them back in ministry. So the burden is in the wrong place. The burden should be on the person who’s done the injuring, and go through an incredibly rigorous, even if they’re not restored in any particular way they need to make right the wrongs they’ve done. They literally need to take years to do the work to figure out what happened, why they did it, the exact nature of the injuries that they’ve caused, and figuring out ways to actually help heal those, right? That’s where the burden should be. So if someone were ever to be restored, it should be the exception. And to me, it would be years in the making. But typically what when we do remove someone from ministry, we send them off somewhere, and it’s not even really therapy, it’s some discipleship program somewhere that people go through for four months and say they’re restored, and we bring them back. That is completely inadequate. So I’m with you that yeah, in most of my writing, I’m just like, yeah, whenever this happens, it should preclude them ever having a job in ministry again. Because what for me as a social worker it would. If I were sexual with a client, I’d lose my license and I wouldn’t be able to work in my chosen profession. Why do ministers who have all this power and authority and esteem and represent God, get to just jump right back in? We’ve got it upside down right now.   Julie Roys  45:23 We do. And I think what people don’t realize is that, fundamentally, there’s deception at the core of this. So this is someone who is skilled at deceiving people. So how on earth do you know that this person is repentant? How on earth do you know if this person won’t reoffend? They’re a master manipulator and deceiver. You just don’t put people like that back in positions where they’re over people, and they have authority and a means of manipulating people. You just cannot do that. I look at certain pastors who have fallen. And I’m like, there are not enough years left in this person’s life to restore the trust they’ve betrayed. There’s just not. The only way you know if someone’s changed, is, over time, a long time in a community. And we’re sadly in a situation in evangelicalism where the pastor’s removed from community, especially in these mega churches, especially in these big movements, they’re removed from accountability, people don’t know them. And again, just ripe for this type of abuse.   Julie Roys  46:28 So, glad we’re talking about it. And I don’t want to not touch on something that I mentioned earlier, but we didn’t really dig into it. Talk about the victim, who then becomes a victimizer, who becomes a part of the system. I don’t know how common that is. I will say in my reporting, it hasn’t been all that common. But in this particular case, there’s at least some people saying there was Misty participating in some harm. I don’t think she saw it as that. But talk about that dynamic and how that happens, and how to deal with it.   DAVID POOLER 47:05 So to universalize, this on some level, we’ve all been injured, and we’ve all injured others on some level. So we can just sort of state that’s a fact about being human. But I would just say in my experience, most victims of adult clergy sexual abuse, they themselves do not go on to injure and harm others. However, I think some of the exceptions to that are when that person who potentially is being abused and injured is at the core and has power and has influence. And there’s something at stake in both the way that they’re protecting the system, and some of even protecting their own interests in some way, whether that’s financial, emotional, psychological, whatever that is. And I think when we’re backed into a corner, we’re likely to lash out and injure others. So it absolutely can happen. But I guess that’s the thing is like, where do you go back and tracing back by say, hurt people? Right? On some level, that’s exactly right.   DAVID POOLER 48:10 But I think what’s important in all this is teasing out some of these dynamics that, yes, someone may have been a victim, and then they have injured someone else in a certain way. They don’t get off the hook for that, right? They need to make that right, acknowledge that and own that. In any given day any of us can injure or heal. And I think part of what we have to just say is that all injuries are not the same. Right? When you’ve got a predatory person, deeply injuring someone who’s going to have major pain for the rest of their life. Right? I’ll just add a statistic. I just got a paper that’s under review right now. But 39% of the survivors of adult clergy sexual abuse that participated in my research, 39% have PTSD. The injuries are deep, abiding, and profound. This isn’t just a little fly by night, oh, this was no big deal. The data I’m looking at, are saying this is a huge deal. It’s causing post-traumatic stress disorder, a mental health diagnosis that has profound impact on how we function and think and navigate relationships. It’s a big deal.   Julie Roys  49:25  It’s not just adult clergy sexual abuse, the amount of spiritual abuse and what that does to people. I will never forget. And this was very early on in my reporting. When I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald and the harm he was causing people. And there was a couple that came over it was actually the former chairman of the board of elders at Harvest and his wife, and they had been out of the church for 10 years. They came over and I’ll never forget his wife was literally shaking, and she’s like, I’ve been out of it 10 years. She had never seen a counselor to get this diagnosis, but she’s like, I’m sure I have PTSD. She’s to this day and she was shaking, telling the stories; 10 years out of it.   Julie Roys  50:08 I remember somebody else I talked to said, his counselor asked him at one point, how often do you think about James McDonald? and he said at least seven times a week, because he knew daily, he still thought of the abuse that he had received. Again, no sexual abuse in this, just bullying and nasty spiritual abuse. And it is just such a scourge in our churches right now and something we don’t understand. And so I appreciate so much you reaching out. This is one story I have just agonized over before I published. I continue to agonize afterwards. Could we have framed something differently? I just think all of us, we need to be asking these questions need to be doing better at understanding it in the church and having more of these discussions. And so I’m very grateful for that. Is there anything that I haven’t brought up that as you’re looking at this particular situation, that you feel needs to be highlighted, or that we just haven’t explored yet?   DAVID POOLER 51:03 Maybe this is an interesting place for this to end. But around maybe the person who’s been injured, who thinks they’re in love with their abuser.   Julie Roys  51:13 Is that the Stockholm Syndrome?   DAVID POOLER 51:15 It can be, but I think, on its deepest level, is that this person has met a need for  the survivor. In other words, as a need for belonging, affirmation, feeling important, feeling valued, feeling essential, having a sense of purpose. And these predators actually exploit all of those very human normal needs that could be met in very healthy ways, as far as being a part of a congregation. But are met in a way that of course, you know, how I describe that grooming process. And it takes on a life of its own, but there’s this sense of this person loves me. And of course, and that I’m going to protect the person who I think loves me, and I love them, right? And so breaking that trauma bond, almost around that, is a huge part of recovery for people. I guess, if anything, I would just want to validate it’s a messy and complex journey for people. And what we’ve got to do better in the church is see it for the abuse that it is, and quickly come alongside people that have been injured in our midst and include them and embrace them and let them remain in our congregation. Because right now, the status quo is to push them out and exclude them and blame them and ask what they did wrong. Really, the reason we do that is our collective cognitive dissonance around the fact that we currently in 2024, have predatory leaders in our midst, all over the place, injuring people. We would rather believe that the church is wonderful, our churches are healthy, our churches are safe, our leaders are amazing. But it upsets our little utopia that we’ve created for ourselves.   DAVID POOLER 53:08 And so I guess that’s where I would end is that getting through this requires a depth of critical thinking, a depth of courage, a depth of awakening and self-awareness, a reckoning with ourselves in a way that the church just isn’t used to. But I think if the church can move in that direction, the church would be far more appealing to others. Look, here’s a place that’s wrestling with its own self, with its own questions, and its own failures in really authentic ways that are like really dealing with the hurts that had been caused and holding people accountable. Because right now, I can’t imagine people looking at some of the crises that are facing the church and being attracted to it at all. If anything, it’s gotta be nauseating, and repulsive. I don’t want anything to do with that.   DAVID POOLER 54:03 So that’s sort of my invitation, my call going back to just how messy this is. It’s being a Christian it’s not easy. It’s not for people who want an easy way or an easy path. In fact, it calls us to the depths of injuries and hurt. Yeah, even my own theology has changed as a result of looking at all of this, right? My theology is no longer super positive and super wonderful and just isn’t God great and isn’t being a Christian, super fun? No, it’s a lot of hard work. It’s grief. It’s so effort expended in ways I never imagined. But I honestly think, Oh, I’ll end with this. I think the survivors of this kind of trauma and injuries in our church actually are some of our future church leaders. They know best what a healthy church would look like. They know best what to avoid in a leader who would injure people. They know best what it’s like to actually heal from some of the deepest wounds that you could experience. Right? I don’t know, I have a lot of hope for where we are. But it’s going to include the voices of people who’ve been deeply injured in our spaces of adult clergy sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, some of the things that you cover and talk about. It’s those very people who are making their way through this that can lead us and bring us new light.   Julie Roys  55:29 I agree with that 100%. I think Phil Monroe, in the message that he gave to RESTORE in 2022 said something along those lines, and the sweetness when you are around survivors, and these are people whose faith has been through the fire, and some of them are clinging to just like barely clinging on to faith. But some of them also, if you come through this, and you even have a mustard seed left, that’s commendable. That’s all I can say. And so I think these folks are our teachers, they will be our teachers. And can I just say, with this particular story, I do pray for Misty, I really do. And I really, truly hope that she comes to a place of being able to tell her story truthfully to herself. She will find there is a great deal of love and support for her and for others who have been through similar things. Thank you, David. I so appreciate you joining me. I learned a ton, as always, just really wonderful. So thank you.   DAVID POOLER 56:33 Thank you, Julie. I so appreciate being here. What a privilege.   Julie Roys  56:37 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, all of our content at The Roys Report is available free of charge. We don’t erect paywalls. We don’t make you pay for our conference talks. Everything is free and available to the public. 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