The Engineering Enablement Podcast

In this episode, Abi Noda speaks with DX CTO Laura Tacho about the real obstacles holding back AI adoption in engineering teams. They discuss why technical challenges are rarely the blocker, and how fear, unclear expectations, and inflated hype can stall progress. Laura shares practical strategies for driving adoption, including how to model usage from the top down, build momentum through champions and training programs, and measure impact effectively—starting with establishing a baseline before introducing AI tools.Where to find Laura Tacho: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauratacho/• Website: https://lauratacho.com/Where to find Abi Noda:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro: The full spectrum of AI adoption(03:02) The hype of AI(04:46) Some statistics around the current state of AI coding tool adoption(07:27) The real barriers to AI adoption(09:31) How to drive AI adoption (15:47) Measuring AI's impact (19:49) More strategies for driving AI adoption (23:54) The Methods companies are actually using to drive impact(29:15) Questions from the chat (39:48) Wrapping upReferenced:DX Core 4 Productivity FrameworkThe AI adoption playbook: Lessons from Microsoft's internal strategyMicrosoft CEO says up to 30% of the company's code was written by AI | TechCrunchViral Shopify CEO Manifesto Says AI Now Mandatory For All EmployeesDORA | Impact of Generative AI in Software DevelopmentGuide to AI assisted engineeringJustin Reock - DX | LinkedIn

In this episode, Abi Noda speaks with Derek DeBellis, lead researcher at Google's DORA team, about their latest report on generative AI's impact on software productivity.They dive into how the survey was built, what it reveals about developer time and “flow,” and the surprising gap between individual and team outcomes. Derek also shares practical advice for leaders on measuring AI impact and aligning metrics with organizational goals.Where to find Derek DeBellis: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekdebellis/Where to find Abi Noda:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro: DORA's new Impact of Gen AI report(03:24) The methodology used to put together the surveys DORA used for the report (06:44) An example of how a single word can throw off a question (07:59) How DORA measures flow (10:38) The two ways time was measured in the recent survey(14:30) An overview of experiential surveying (16:14) Why DORA asks about time (19:50) Why Derek calls survey results ‘observational data' (21:49) Interesting findings from the report (24:17) DORA's definition of productivity (26:22) Why a 2.1% increase in individual productivity is significant (30:00) The report's findings on decreased team delivery throughput and stability (32:40) Tips for measuring AI's impact on productivity (38:20) Wrap up: understanding the data Referenced:DORA | Impact of Generative AI in Software DevelopmentThe science behind DORAYale Professor Divulges Strategies for a Happy Life Incredible! Listening to ‘When I'm 64' makes you forget your ageSlow Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment without BurnoutDORA, SPACE, and DevEx: Which framework should you use?SPACE framework, PRs per engineer, AI research

In this episode, Abi Noda is joined by Laura Tacho, CTO at DX, engineering leadership coach, and creator of the Core 4 framework. They explore how engineering organizations can avoid common pitfalls when adopting metrics frameworks like SPACE, DORA, and Core 4.Laura shares a practical guide to getting started with Core 4—beginning with controllable input metrics that teams can actually influence. The conversation touches on Goodhart's Law, why focusing too much on output metrics can lead to data distortion, and how leaders can build a culture of continuous improvement rooted in meaningful measurement.Where to find Laura Tacho: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauratacho/• Website: https://lauratacho.com/Where to find Abi Noda:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro: Improving systems, not distorting data(02:20) Goal setting with the new Core 4 framework(08:01) A quick primer on Goodhart's law(10:02) Input vs. output metrics—and why targeting outputs is problematic(13:38) A health analogy demonstrating input vs. output(17:03) A look at how the key input metrics in Core 4 drive output metrics (24:08) How to counteract gamification (28:24) How to get developer buy-in(30:48) The number of metrics to focus on (32:44) Helping leadership and teams connect the dots to how input goals drive output(35:20) Demonstrating business impact (38:10) Best practices for goal settingReferenced:DX Core 4 Productivity FrameworkEngineering Enablement PodcastDORA's software delivery metrics: the four keysThe SPACE of Developer Productivity: There's more to it than you thinkDevEx: What Actually Drives ProductivityDORA, SPACE, and DevEx: Which framework should you use?Goodhart's law Nicole Forsgren - Microsoft | LinkedInCampbell's law Introducing Core 4: The best way to measure and improve your product velocityDX Core 4: Framework overview, key design principles, and practical applicationsDX Core 4: 2024 benchmarks - by Abi Noda

Brian Houck from Microsoft returns to discuss effective strategies for driving AI adoption among software development teams. Brian shares his insights into why the immense hype around AI often serves as a barrier rather than a facilitator for adoption, citing skepticism and inflated expectations among developers. He highlights the most effective approaches, including leadership advocacy, structured training, and cultivating local champions within teams to demonstrate practical use cases. Brian emphasizes the importance of honest communication about AI's capabilities, avoiding over-promises, and ensuring that teams clearly understand what AI tools are best suited for. Additionally, he discusses common pitfalls, such as placing excessive pressure on individuals through leaderboards and unrealistic mandates, and stresses the importance of framing AI as an assistant rather than a replacement for developer skills. Finally, Brian explores the role of data and metrics in adoption efforts, offering practical advice on how to measure usage effectively and sustainably.Where to find Brian Houck: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianhouck/ • Website: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/people/bhouck/ Where to find Abi Noda:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro: Why AI hype can hinder adoption among teams(01:47) Key strategies companies use to successfully implement AI(04:47) Understanding why adopting AI tools is uniquely challenging(07:09) How clear and consistent leadership communication boosts AI adoption(10:46) The value of team leaders ("local champions") demonstrating practical AI use(14:26) Practical advice for identifying and empowering team champions(16:31) Common mistakes companies make when encouraging AI adoption(19:21) Simple technical reminders and nudges that encourage AI use(20:24) Effective ways to track and measure AI usage through dashboards(23:18) Working with team leaders and infrastructure teams to promote AI tools(24:20) Understanding when to shift from adoption efforts to sustained use(25:59) Insights into the real-world productivity impact of AI(27:52) Discussing how AI affects long-term code maintenance(29:02) Updates on ongoing research linking sleep quality to productivityReferenced:DX Core 4 Productivity FrameworkEngineering Enablement PodcastDORA MetricsDropbox Engineering BlogEtsy Engineering BlogPfizer Digital InnovationBrown Bag Sessions – A GuideIDE Integration and AI ToolsDeveloper Productivity Dashboard Examples

In this episode, we're joined by author and researcher Gene Kim for a wide-ranging conversation on the evolution of DevOps, developer experience, and the systems thinking behind organizational performance. Gene shares insights from his latest work on socio-technical systems, the role of developer platforms, and how AI is reshaping the shape of engineering teams. We also explore the coordination challenges facing modern organizations, the limits of tooling, and the deeper principles that unite DevOps, lean, and platform engineering.Mentions and links:Phoenix ProjectDecoding the DNA of the Toyota Production SystemWiring the Winning OrganizationETLS VegasFind Gene on LinkedInDiscussion points:(0:00) Introduction(2:12) The evolving landscape of developer experience(10:34) Option Value theory, and how GenAI helps developers(13:45) The aim of developer experience work(19:59) The significance of layer three changes(23:23) Framing developer experience(32:12) GenAI's part in ‘the death of the stubborn developer”(36:05) GenAI's implications on the workforce(38:05) Where Gene's work is heading

In this episode, Airbnb Developer Productivity leader Anna Sulkina shares the story of how her team transformed itself and became more impactful within the organization. She starts by describing how the team previously operated, where teams were delivering but felt they needed more clarity and alignment across teams. Then, the conversation digs into the key changes they made, including reorganizing the team, clarifying team roles, defining strategy, and improving their measurement systems. Mentions and linksFollow Anna on LinkedInFor A deeper look into how our Engineers and Data Scientists build a world of belonging, check out The Airbnb Tech BlogDiscussion points:(0:00) Intro(1:40) Skills that make a great developer productivity leader(4:36) Challenges in how the team operated previously(10:49) Changing the platform org's focus and structure(16:04) Clarifying roles for EM's, PM's, and tech leads(20:22) How Airbnb defined its infrastructure org's strategy(28:23) Improvements they've seen to developer experience satisfaction(32:13) The evolution of Airbnb's developer experience survey

Many teams struggle to use developer productivity data effectively because they don't know how to use it to decide what to do next. We know that data is here to help us improve, but how do you know where to look? And even then, what do you actually do to put the wheels of change in motion? Listen to this conversation with  Abi Noda and Laura Tacho (CEO and CTO at DX) about data-driven management and how to take a structured, analytical approach to using data for improvement.Mentions and Links:Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Laura's developer productivity metrics courseDiscussion points:(0:00) Intro(2:07) The challenge we're seeing(6:53) Overview on using data(8:58) Use cases for data-engineering organizations(15:57) Use cases for data - engineering systems teams(21:38) Two types of metrics - Diagnostics and Improvement(38:09) Summary

In this episode, David Betts, leader of Twilio's developer platform team, shares how Twilio leverages developer sentiment data to drive platform engineering initiatives, optimize Kubernetes adoption, and demonstrate ROI for leadership. David details Twilio's journey from traditional metrics to sentiment-driven insights, the innovative tools his teams have built to streamline CI/CD workflows, and the strategies they use to align platform investments with organizational goals.Mentions and links:Find David on LinkedInMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Ask Your Developer by Jeff Lawson, former CEO of TwilioDiscussion points:(0:00) Introduction(0:49) Twilio's developer platform team(2:03) Twilio's approach to release engineering and CD(4:10) How they use sentiment data and telemetry metrics(7:27) Comparing sentiment data and telemetry metrics(10:25) How to take action on sentiment data(13:16) What resonates with execs(15:44) Proving DX value: sentiment, efficiency, and ROI(19:15) Balancing quarterly and real-time developer feedback

Chris Chandler is a Senior Member of the Technical Staff for Developer Productivity at T-Mobile. Chris has led several major initiatives to improve developer experience including their internal developer portal, Starter Kits (a patented developer platform that predates Backstage), and Workforce Transformation Bootcamps for onboarding developers faster.Mentions and links:Follow Chris on LinkedInMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Listen to Decoder with Nilay Patel.Discussion points:(0:47) From developer experience to developer productivity(7:03) Getting executive buy-in for developer productivity initiatives(13:54) What Chris's team is responsible for(17:02) How they've built relationships with other teams(20:57) How they built and got funding for Dev Console and Starter Kits(27:23) Homegrown solution vs Backstage

In this episode, Abi and Laura dive into the 2024 DX Core 4 benchmarks, sharing insights across data from 500+ companies. They discuss what these benchmarks mean for engineering leaders, how to interpret key metrics like the Developer Experience Index, and offer advice on how to best use benchmarking data in your organization. Mentions and Links:DX core 4 benchmarksMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Developer experience index (DXI)Will Larson's article on the Core 4 and power of benchmarking dataDiscussion points:(0:42) What benchmarks are for(3:44) Overview of the DX Core 4 benchmarks(6:07) PR throughput data (11:05) Key insights related to startups and mobile teams (14:54) Change fail rate data (19:42) How to best use benchmarking data

In this episode, Abi and Laura introduce the DX Core 4, a new framework designed to simplify how organizations measure developer productivity. They discuss the evolution of productivity metrics, comparing Core 4 with frameworks like DORA, SPACE, and DevEx, and emphasize its focus on speed, effectiveness, quality, and impact. They explore why each metric was chosen, the importance of balancing productivity measures with developer experience, and how Core 4 can help engineering leaders align productivity goals with broader business objectives.   Mentions and Links:Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Laura's developer productivity metrics courseDiscussion Points:(2:42) Introduction to the DX Core 4(3:42) Identifying the Core 4's target audience and key stakeholders(4:38) Origins and purpose(9:20) Building executive alignment(14:15) Tying metrics to business value through output-oriented measures(24:45) Defining impact(32:42) Choosing between DORA, SPACE, and Core 4 frameworks

In this episode, Brian Houck, Applied Scientist, Developer Productivity at Microsoft, covers SPACE, DORA, and some specific metrics the developer productivity research team is finding useful. The conversation starts by comparing DORA and SPACE. Brian explains why activity metrics were included in the SPACE framework, then dives into one metric in particular: pull request throughput. Brian also describes another metric Microsoft is finding useful, and gives a preview into where his research is heading. Mentions and linksConnect with Brian on LinkedInThe SPACE of Developer Productivity: There's More to It Than You ThinkMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4DevEx in actionDORA, SPACE, and DevEx: Which framework should you use?Discussion points(0:48) SPACE framework's growth and adoption(3:47) Comparing DORA and SPACE(6:30) SPACE misconceptions and common implementation challenges(9:34) Whether PR throughput is useful  (15:13) Real-world example of using PR throughput (21:33) Talking about metrics like PR throughput internally (24:39) Where Brian's research is heading 

Click here to view the episode transcript. In this episode, Snowflake's Gilad Turbahn, Head of Developer Productivity, and Amy Yuan, Director of Engineering, dive into how they elevated developer productivity to a top company priority. They discuss the pivotal role of Snowflake's CTO, who personally invested over half his time to guide the initiative, and how leadership's hands-on involvement secured buy-in across teams. The conversation also explores the importance of collaboration between engineering and product management, and how measuring user sentiment helped them deliver meaningful, long-lasting improvements.Mentions and linksConnect with Gilad and Amy on LinkedInMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Discussion Points(0:48) The need for a shift at Snowflake(3:59) Leadership involvement and prioritization of developer productivity(8:56) The partnership between engineering and product managers(20:01) From feature factory to customer outcome-focused development(27:36) Shifting measurement focus to user sentiment and customer outcomes(39:13) Gaining buy-in for sentiment metrics and tying them to business impact(51:11) How Snowflake's CTO and volunteers accelerated developer productivity improvements.

Click here to view the episode transcript. In this episode, Emanuel Mueller Ramos, Head of Developer Experience at Skyscanner, discusses the evolution of his team as they transitioned from focusing on frameworks and middleware to becoming a customer-centric, impact-driven organization. Emanuel details the strategies he used to gain stakeholder buy-in, why it's crucial to rethink traditional productivity metrics, and how they made a cultural shift to prioritize developer happiness and effectiveness. This conversation highlights the steps necessary to build a developer experience function that delivers meaningful impact.Mentions and links:Follow Emanuel on LinkedInMeasuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4Discussion points:(1:14) The beginning of Skyscanner's developer productivity division(3:53) Gaining stakeholder buy-in and refocusing the teams(5:57) Redefining success metrics for developer productivity(8:57) Pitching the developer experience focus to leadership(17:26) Moving from frameworks to feedback loops(20:45) Fostering a customer-centric culture(23:20) Defining the collaboration between platform and developer experience teams(26:41) Choosing the right metrics for developer experience success (31:31) Risks and challenges ahead

In this week's episode, Abi is joined by industry leaders Idan Gazit from GitHub, Anna Sulkina from Airbnb, and Alix Melchy from Jumio. Together, they discuss the impact of GenAI tools on developer productivity, exploring challenges in measurement and enhancement. They delve into AI's evolving role in engineering, from overcoming friction points to exploring real-world applications and the future of technology. Gain insights into how AI-driven chat assistants are reshaping workflows and the vision for coding.Links: How to measure GenAI adoption and impact

In this week's episode, Abi welcomes Jared Wolinsky, Vice President of Platform Engineering at SiriusXM, to delve into the inner workings of platform engineering at SiriusXM. Jared sheds light on their innovative approach to prioritizing projects, emphasizing alignment with overarching business goals. They explore how these strategies boost developer speed and drive technological advancement within the organization.Links: When is the right time to establish a DevProd team report

In this episode, Michelle Swartz, Vice president of Developer Enablement American Express, shares insights on improving developer experience. She discusses the creation of an onboarding bootcamp and the development of the AmEx Way Library for better knowledge management. Michelle explains how AmEx balances standardization and flexibility with the concept of Paved Roads. She also highlights the importance of measuring success, fostering community, and elevating the company's tech credibility.Mentions and linksGenAI Guide

This week's episode is a recording from a recent event hosted by Abi Noda (CEO of DX) and Laura Tacho (CTO at DX). The episode begins with an overview of the DORA, SPACE, and DevEx frameworks, including where they overlap and common misconceptions about each. Laura and Abi discuss the advantages and drawbacks of each framework, then discuss how to choose which framework to use.Discussion points:2:50- DORA, SPACE, DevEx overview10:35- Choosing which framework to use13:15- Using DORA22:42-Using SPACEMentions and Links: Dora.dev

In this week's episode, we welcome Derek DeBellis, lead researcher on Google's DORA team, for a deep dive into the science and methodology behind DORA's research. We explore Derek's background, his role at Google, and how DORA intersects with other research disciplines. Derek takes us through DORA's research process step by step, from defining outcomes and factors to survey design, analysis, and structural equation modeling.Discussion points:(3:00) Derek's transition from Microsoft to the DORA team at Google(4:28) Derek talks about his connection to surveys(6:16) Derek's journey to becoming a quantitative user experience researcher(7:48) Derek simplifies DORA(8:19) DORA - Philosophy vs practice(11:09) Understanding desired outcomes(12:45) Self reported outcomes vs objective outcomes(16:16) Derek and Abi discuss the nuances of literature review(19:57) Derek details survey development(27:55) Pretesting issues(29:30) Designing surveys for other companies(35:02) Derek simplifies model analysis and validation techniques(38:48) Benchmarks: Balancing data limitations with method sensitivityMentions and Links:Derek DeBellis on LinkedInDX's guide to measuring GenAI adoption and impact2023 Accelerate State of DevOps Report

This week we're joined by Sean Mcllroy from Slack's Release Engineering team to learn about how they've fully automated their deployment process. This conversation covers Slack's original release process, key changes Sean's team has made, and the latest challenges they're working on today. Discussion points:(1:34): The Release Engineering team(2:13): How the monolith has served Slack (3:24): How the deployment process used to work (6:23): The complexity of the deploy itself(7:39): Early ideas for improving the deployment process(9:07): Why anomaly detection is challenging(10:32): What a Z-score is(13:23): Managing noise with Z-scores(16:49): Presenting this information to people that need it(19:54): Taking humans out of the process(23:13): Handling rollbacks(25:27): Not overloading developers with information(28:26): Handling large deploymentsMentions and links:Read Sean's blog post, The Scary Thing About DeploysFollow Sean on LinkedIn

This week's episode is the recording of a live conversation between Abi and Chris Westerhold (Thoughtworks Head of Developer Experience). This conversation is useful for anyone early in their journey with developer portals or platforms: Abi and Chris discuss common approaches to solving these problems, pitfalls to avoid, building vs. buying, and more. Discussion points:(3:09) Why there's an increased interest in developer portals(5:33) Chris' background with dev portals(6:37) Homegrown solutions for developer portals(9:22) How developer portal initiatives begin(11:24) Internal developer portal vs service catalogs and IDPs(16:18) Mistakes companies make with developer portals(21:05) Approaches to solving this problem(24:28) How can developer portals drive value(32:07) Common traps to avoidMentions and LinksFollow Chris on LinkedInWatch the recording of this conversation Watch part 2 of this conversation on the market landscapeLearn about PlatformX, DX's product mentioned in the conversation

On this week's episode, Abi interviews Kent Wills, Director of Engineering Effectiveness at Yelp.  He shares insights into the evolution of their developer productivity efforts over the past decade. From tackling challenges with their monolithic architecture to scaling productivity initiatives for over 1,300 developers. Kent also touches on his experience in building a business case for developer productivity.Discussion points:(1:42) Forming the developer productivity team(3:25) Naming the team engineering effectiveness(4:30) Getting leadership buy-in for focusing on this work(7:54) Managing code ownership in Yelp's monolith(12:23) Supporting the design system(16:00) The business case for forming a dedicated team (19:45) How to standardize (23:50) How their approach to standardization might be different in another company(27:08) Demonstrating the value of their work (32:21) Building an insights platform(38:47) How Yelp is using LLM'sMentions and LinksConnect with Kent Wills on LinkedInWatch Kent's 2023 talk at ElevateListen to the interview with Peter Seibel (“Let 1,000 flowers bloom”)Download the recently published benchmarks on developer productivity team headcount

This week we're joined by Gail Carmichael, Principal Instructional Engineer at Splunk. At Splunk, Gail's team is responsible for improving developer onboarding, which they do through a multi-day learning program. Here, Gail shares how this program works and how they measure developer onboarding. The conversation also covers what instructional engineers are generally, and how Gail demonstrates the impact of her team's work. Discussion points:(1:16) The Engineering Enablement & Engagement Team at Splunk(8:01) What an Instructional Engineer is(14:36) The developer onboarding program at Splunk(16:05) Components of a good onboarding program(21:11) Why having an onboarding program matters(28:17) Measuring onboarding at Shopify (Gail's previous company)(31:39) Measuring developer onboarding at SplunkMentions and LinksConnect with Gail on LinkedInDownload the report on Developer productivity metrics at top tech companies

In this episode we're joined by Adam Rogal, who leads Developer Productivity and Platform at DoorDash. Adam describes DoorDash's journey with their internal developer portal, and gives advice for  other teams looking to follow a similar path. Adam also describes how his team delivered value quickly and drove adoption for their developer platform.Discussion points:(1:47) Why DoorDash explored implementing a developer portal(6:59) The initial vision for the developer portal 12:19 Funding ongoing development 16:01 Deciding what to include in the portal 19:15 Coming up with a name for the portal 20:01 Advice for interested beginners23:55 Putting together a business case32:32 Getting adoption for the portal 37:27 Driving initial awareness 41:29 Getting feedback from developers48:33 What Adam would have done differentlyMentions and links:Adam Rogal on LinkedInGet started (API)New testing and monitoring tools

In this episode, Abi has a fascinating conversation with Rebecca Parsons, ThoughtWorks's CTO, Camilla Crispim, and Erik Dörnenburg on the ThoughtWorks Tech Radar. The trio begins with an overview of Tech Radar and its history before delving into the intricate process of creating each report involving multiple teams and stakeholders. The conversation concludes with a focus on the evolution of Tech Radar's design and process and potential future changes. This episode offers Tech Radar fans an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at its history and production.Discussion points:1:20-An introduction to the Tech Radar6:06-Common terms used in this episode6:27-The origin of the Tech Radar8:50-Problems that the Tech Radar was aiming to solve12:23-The impact on internal decision making-a tool for driving change14:30-The teams philosophy behind Tech Radar18:33-What sets the Tech Radar apart21:11-Why maintaining independence is crucial for their audience25:08-How Tech Radar publishes their reports29:36-A look into Thoughtworks live meeting sessions34:51-Tech Radars Git repository42:20-Recent changes and upcoming shiftsMentions and links:ThoughtWorks TechRadarRebecca Parsons on LinkedInCamilla Crispim on LinkedInErik Dörnenburg on LinkedInThoughtworks Git repository

This week's guest is Eirini Kalliamvakou, a staff researcher at GitHub focused on AI and developer experience. Eirini sits at the forefront of research into GitHub Copilot. Abi and Eirini discuss recent research on how AI coding assistance impacts developer productivity. They talk about how leaders should build business cases for AI tools. They also preview what's to come with AI tools and implications for how developer productivity is measured.Discussion points:(1:49) Overview of GitHub's research on AI(2:59) The research study on Copilot(4:48) Defining and measuring productivity for this study(7:44) Exact measures and factors studied(8:16) Key findings from the study(9:45) How the study was conducted (11:17) Most surprising findings for the researchers(14:01) The motivation for conducting a follow-up study(15:34) How the follow-up study was conducted(18:42) Findings from the follow-up study(21:13) Is AI just hype? (26:34) How to begin advocating for AI tools(34:44) How to translate data into dollars(37:06) How to roll out AI tools to an organization(38:47) The impact of AI on developer experience(43:24) Implications of AI on how we measure productivityMentions and links:Eirini Kalliamvakou on LinkedInResearch on the impact of Copilot Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore

Christopher Sanson is a product manager at Airbnb who is dedicated to enhancing developer productivity and tooling. Today, we learn more about Airbnb's developer productivity team and how various teams use metrics, both within and outside the organization. From there, we dive even deeper into their measurement journey, highlighting their implementation of DORA metrics and the challenges they overcame throughout the process.Discussion points: (2:43) Who is the developer productivity customer (4:49) The evolution of developer productivity at Airbnb (9:26) Approach before DORA metrics (14:29) Getting buy-in for DORA metrics (17:49) Planning how to deliver new metrics to the organization (21:12) How Airbnb calculates deployment frequency (23:29) Implementing a proof of concept (27:20) Statistical measurement strategies and tactics (31:11) Operationalizing developer productivity metrics (34:26) How Airbnb reviews data (35:41) How Airbnb uses DORA metrics Mentions and links: Christopher Sanson on LinkedIn Christopher's talk at DPE Summit How Top Companies Measure Developer Productivity

In this episode, Abi speaks with Ana Petkovska, who is currently leading the developer experience team at Nexthink. Ana takes us through her journey of leading a DevOps team that underwent multiple transformations. She explains how her team went from being a DevOps team to EngProd and eventually DevEx. Ana elaborates on her team's challenges and the reasons behind the shift in focus. She also shares how she discovered EngProd and used data from companies like Google to convince her company to invest in EngProd. Finally, Ana explains how DevEx came into the picture and changed how her team approaches and measures their work.Discussion points: (00:28) Creating and leading a DevOps team (05:04) Shifting from DevOps to EngProd (07:28) Inspiration from Google (10:05) Building the case for EngProd (13:42) Ratio of engineers to DevEx engineers (15:10) Team mission and charter (16:53) Learning about DevEx (20:05) The difference between EngProd and DevEx (22:32) Nexthink's focus today Mentions and links: Ana Petkovska on LinkedIn Engineering Productivity @Google (Michael Bachman)

In this episode, Abi chats with Grant Jenks, Senior Staff SWE, Engineering Insights @ LinkedIn. They dive into LinkedIn's developer insights platform, iHub, and its backstory. The conversation covers qualitative versus quantitative metrics, sharing concerns about these terms and exploring their correlation. The episode wraps up with technical topics like winsorized means, thoughts on composite scores, and ways AI can benefit developer productivity teams.(1:10) Insights in the productivity space(7:13) LinkedIn's metrics platform, iHub(12:52) Making metrics actionable(15:35) Choosing the right and wrong metrics(19:39) The difficulty of answering simple questions(26:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up approach to metrics(32:12) Winsorized mean and selecting measurements(39:25) Using composite metrics(46:57) Using AI in developer productivity

This week's episode is with Jim Beyers, VP of Engineering Enablement at CVS Health. Jim joined CVS a year ago to lead an effort to build an internal developer platform. Abi and Jim discuss how Jim joined CVS to build an internal developer platform, what brought him to the job, and how the developer experience fits into the broader transformation goals of CVS. Additionally, this episode covers building the team, defining a strategy, and how he's thinking about winning the hearts and minds across his organization.Discussion points: (1:15) How Jim was brought into CVS (2:39) How DevEx aligns with CVS's transformation initiatives (6:06) Jim's vision for developer experience (8:26) Building a DevEx team and working with product managers (15:06) Defining and communicating a DevEx strategy (19:37) Assessing Backstage and developing a platform (24:40) Working with developers and leaders (27:55) Working alongside colleagues tackling similar problems (29:26) Reporting on progress Mentions and links: Jim Beyers on LinkedIn Jim's talk on the Target Application Platform

This week we spoke with Nils Loodin, Platform Product Manager at Spotify. Nils describes how his role in platform product management works, including unique challenges, approaches, and career considerations. Nils also discusses some of the recent changes within Spotify's platform organization, including shifting teams from tech-centric to journey-centric. Discussion points: (1:30) How Nils came into his role (3:59) How “developer experience” came into the picture at Spotify (5:30) How the Platform team is structured (8:52) Unique challenges of the Platform PM role (12:51) Defining the Platform PM's focus (16:39) Staying close to their customers (21:09) Optimal background for someone in this role (24:43) Attracting PMs into Platform roles (29:40) How it is that Spotify's leadership invests in developer experience (31:19) How a recent reorg shifted Platform's focus  (41:29) Improving onboarding for mobile engineers (47:33) Measuring onboarding  Mentions and links: Connect with Nils on LinkedIn The product management discipline in platform teams | Russ Nealis (Plaid) Spotify's Engineering blog 

This week we're joined by Justin Wright and Matthew Dimich, who lead Platform Engineering and Engineering Enablement at Thomson Reuters. Justin and Matt give an inside look at how they've evolved their organization's structure and approach over the past 8 years. Discussion points:  (1:03) Founding the platform team (5:49) The current organizational structure (9:00) Key initiatives the platform organization is focused on (12:55) The enablement function within platform (16:44) What drove the engagement function's growth (19:42) The value of having an enablement function (24:05) Marketing the enablement team's work (29:47) How enablement interfaces with other platform teams (33:22) Managing the work enablement focuses on (36:55) The balance of requests vs proactive work Mentions and links: Connect with Justin and Matt on LinkedIn Manuel Pais' Platform as a Product talk

This week's episode dives into the DORA research program and this year's State of DevOps Report. Nathen Harvey, who leads DORA at Google, shares the key findings from the research and what's changed since previous reports. Discussion points: (1:10) What DORA focuses on (2:17) Where the DORA metrics fit  (4:35) Introduction to user-centric software development (8:05) Impact of user-centricity on software delivery (9:40) Team performance vs. organizational performance  (13:50) Importance of internal documentation (15:19) Methodology for designing surveys (19:52) Impact of documentation on software delivery (23:11) Reemergence of the Elite cluster (25:55) Advice for leaders leveraging benchmarks (28:30) Redefining MTTR (33:45) Changing how Change Failure Rate is measured (36:45) Impact of AI on software delivery  (41:25) Impact of code review speed Mentions and links: Connect with Nathen on LinkedIn Listen to the previous episode with Nathen Read the 2023 State of Devops Report The DORA Quick Check Blog post: Documentation is like sunshine Join the DORA community DevEx: What Actually Drives Productivity

This week we're joined by Preeti Kota, the Head of Engineering for Compass at Atlassian. Preeti walks us through Atlassian's journey with developer experience: including how they measure DevEx, and how they drive improvements through efforts at both the organization and team levels. Preeti also talks about how this journey has led to the development of Atlassian's newly released internal developer portal, Compass. Mentions and links: Learn about Compass, Atlassian's newly released internal developer portal   Connect with Preeti on LinkedIn Atlassian's CTO, Rajeev Rajan, on the key to unlocking developer productivity  Discussion points: (1:43) Where Atlassian's journey with developer experience began (5:36) Who is championing the focus on DevEx at Atlassian (9:30) How the company arrived at their level of investment in DevEx (13:47) Defining developer experience (18:19) How the program for improving developer productivity is structured (21:19) The Developer Productivity Champions group (23:53) Two metrics in focus: Self-serve documentation and self-serve dependency maintenance (25:56) How Atlassian surveys developers  (29:59) Types of projects the centralized teams tackle  (31:19) Getting buy-in for investing 10% time toward DevEx projects (33:13) How leaders get teams to feel they have permission to invest 10% of their time toward DevEx projects (36:19) The backstory behind Compass, Atlassian's new product  (38:10) What Compass is, who it's for, and how it is unique

This week we're joined by Mark Côté, who leads the Developer Infrastructure organization at Shopify, to learn about their developer survey program. Mark shares what went into designing and running the survey, what they've done to drive participation rates higher, and how they interpret their data. Mentions and links: Follow Mark on LinkedIn Read Shopify's engineering blog Discussion points: (1:32) Starting the survey (3:20) How the survey has evolved (4:22) Three types of information gleaned from the survey (7:37) Designing and running the survey (12:28) Participation rates (15:12) Why there's an increase of interest in the results at Shopify (17:42) What's affecting participation rates (23:03) Selecting survey questions (27:01) Refining survey questions (28:54) Survey length (30:56) Analyzing the results  (33:31) How the data is stored and shared (35:56) Sending targeted surveys to the right developers  (37:40) Using the results as a Developer Acceleration organization (39:29) Confidence in the data (41:27) The value of a developer survey

Thomas Khalil, Head of Platform and SRE at Trivago, describes how the teams reporting into him are structured, the tactics they're using to increase awareness of their work, and how they demonstrate their impact. Discussion points:  (1:17) The pillars of the Central Platform organization (2:18) The organization's focus on time to market and efficiency (3:09) The differences in developer experience between teams (4:37) Deciding whether to consolidate services (5:57) How platform, developer experience, observability, and SRE teams interact (8:40) How these problems were being tackled previously  (10:09) A failed attempt at rolling out Backstage  (13:48) How SRE squads are organized (15:39) How to motivate platform teams  (17:23) Demonstrating the impact of the organization (18:42) How the data is collected (22:32) How they're increasing awareness for their work  (23:42) The DevEx pillar (25:46) How the DevEx roadshow will work  (27:56) How DORA metrics fit into their measurement program  Mentions and links: Connect with Thomas on LinkedIn

This week's guest is Jenny McClain, who leads R&D Team Enablement at Toast. Jenny's team focuses on enabling individual teams at Toast to drive their own productivity improvements, and this conversation dives into how they tackle this problem. Discussion points:  (1:19) How the R&D Enablement team works (2:50) Why the team was formed (4:31) The types of work the team focuses on (7:31) Identifying the problems this team would solve (11:23) How team embeds work (17:19) The learning resources the team develops and maintains (20:55) Who creates and maintains the learning resources (23:10) How enablement stays connected with teams at scale (25:51) How the team plans work with qualitative and quantitative measures  (29:37) Formats for sharing knowledge between teams (33:05) How other companies can think about the enablement function (37:40) Enablement as a career path Mentions and links:Follow Jenny on LinkedInTuckman's stages of group developmentWorking Agreements template from Steve Sobel, Director of Engineering at Toast - one of the resources featured in Toast's Team Health Toolkit 

This week we're joined by Ciera Jaspan and Collin Green, who lead the Engineering Productivity Research team at Google. Ciera and Collin have written several papers from studies they've conducted, and this discussion covers the insights from their research as well as their work more broadly at Google. Discussion points: (1:19) About the Engineering Productivity Research team (3:57) How the team interacts with the rest of the organization (5:58) The different backgrounds included on the team (13:11) How Google measures developer productivity (18:54) Evaluating discrepancies between qualitative and quantitative data  (28:40) Google's quarterly developer survey (32:02) Distributing survey results back to the organization  (40:25) Misunderstandings about surveys (43:51) Ciera and Collin's paper on why measuring productivity is difficult (50:35) Reductionist metrics for measuring productivity (55:26) Examples of other fields that have struggled with measurement (59:00) Google's study on measuring technical debt (1:08:05) Human judgment in measurement Mentions and links: Follow Ciera and Collin on LinkedInA Human-Centered Approach to Measuring Developer Productivity - Paper, Abi's summaryEnabling the Study of Software Development with Cross-Tool Logs - PaperDefining, Measuring, and Managing Tech Debt - Paper, Abi's summaryGoogle's Goals, Signals, Metrics framework - Paper, Abi's summary

This week we're joined by Jason Kennedy, Senior Engineering Manager of Developer Experience at One Medical. Jason's team takes a uniquely customer-driven approach to improving the developer experience, and in this episode he describes their philosophy and how it works in practice. Jason explains how they shadow developers, how they run surveys, and more. Discussion points: (1:02) Renaming from Engineering Efficiency to Engineering Experience (4:17) How Platform and DevEx teams differ  (5:38) How One Medical's approach to customer experience inspires this team's work (7:01) Mapping out the developer journey (11:14) Jason's career transition from VPE to a line manager role (14:14) Challenges some companies face with getting buy-in for a DevEx team (16:22) Taking a customer service approach to DevEx (19:12) Jason's experience with DORA metrics (22:19) Lessons learned about ownership (24:18) The “Gemba” practice used at One Medical  (28:02) How information from the Gemba practice is stored (30:59) Using weekly polls to surface pain points (34:03) Tracking trends in the poll (35:00) Using a quarterly NPS survey for overall sentiment (37:08) How sentiment is measured and evaluated (41:44) The biggest challenges with surveys  Mentions and links:Follow Jason on LinkedInListen to the podcast episode with Jasmine JamesBook about Disney: Be Our Guest

Matthew and Luke lead Extend's Developer Experience team, a team that has approached their work in a way that is more forward-thinking than most. In this episode, they cover how they deliver impact at multiple levels of the organization, their journey with productivity metrics, and how they've made DevEx a C-level concern. Discussion points: (1:40) How the DevEx team started and where it fits at Extend (5:08) Tradeoffs of DevEx reporting into Platform  (6:40) The mandate and tasks they focus on (12:07) The impact of learning and development efforts (16:33) How to drive team-level improvements  (18:44) Why developer experience is becoming more prevalent (26:17) How they made DevEx a C-level concern (30:27) Their journey with productivity metrics  (33:10) Advice for presenting DevEx data to executives  (34:52) The team's experience using git metrics tools (48:30) Being rigorous in leveraging metrics  Mentions and links: Connect with Matthew and Luke on LinkedInOther podcasts mentioned: Manuel Pais; Peloton's DevEx survey

Manuel Pais delves into one of the concepts covered in his book “Team Topologies”: platform and enabling work. Manuel shares how he views the strategy behind when and how to invest in platform or enabling work. This conversation also goes into each type of work in more detail, covering topics such as measuring cognitive load and where platform engineering may be heading in the future.  (2:13) How enabling teams and platform teams are different  (10:28) What it looks like for a team to own both platform and enabling work  (17:04) How to deliver enabling work in an organization (22:28) Whether enabling teams should be temporary (30:10) Platform team anti-patterns (47:10) Measuring cognitive load

Thansha Sadacharam, who leads Tech Learning and Insights at Peloton walks us through the journey of building the company's developer experience survey. She shares what went into the survey's design, rollout, and maintenance, as well as the different teams involved.Discussion points:  (1:19) Where the idea for running a developer survey originated (6:36) Advice for other leaders getting buy-in for these initiatives (11:27) The first steps in designing the survey (18:21) How the survey incorporated benchmarking (20:30) Measuring developer satisfaction (22:37) Refining the question items  (25:50) How long the survey was (26:50) What was involved in trimming the questions  (29:28) Writing survey questions  (33:12) How much time was spent developing the survey (35:19) The communication plan for launching the survey (42:05) Driving participation rates   (45:21) Sampling and how often surveys are being sent  (49:21) How the information was presented  (54:10) Feeling nervous about sending out surveys  Mentions and linksFollow Thansha on LinkedIn

In this episode, Abi is interviewed by Laura Tacho about the new paper he co-authored with Dr. Nicole Forsgren, Dr. Margaret-Anne Storey, and Dr. Michaela Greiler. Abi and Laura discuss the pitfalls of some of the common metrics organizations use, and how the new paper builds on prior frameworks such as DORA and SPACE to offer a new approach to measuring and improving developer productivity. Discussion topics: (2:20) Laura's background (3:59) Laura's view on git metrics (11:05) What developer experience (DevEx) is  (14:37) How the authors came together for this paper  (18:55) How DORA and SPACE are different (22:38) Limitations of DORA metrics  (24:43) Employing the DORA metrics at GitHub (27:47) What the SPACE framework is (30:44) Whether to use DORA or SPACE or both (33:54) Limitations of the SPACE framework (37:29) The need for a new approach  (38:46) What the new DevEx paper solves  (40:13) The three dimensions of developer experience  (40:54) Flow state  (43:10) Feedback loops (43:52) Cognitive load  (44:51) Why developer sentiment matters (47:58) Using both perceptual and workflow measures (50:59) Examples of perceptual and workflow measures  (54:05) How to collect metrics  (59:47) How other companies are measuring and improving developer experience (01:02:56) Advice for earlier-stage or growing organizations Resources for learning more about the DevEx framework:Read the new paper on ACM QueueRead Abi's announcement about the new paper Read how top companies measure developer productivity Connect with Abi and Laura Sign up for Laura's course, Measuring Development Team PerformanceConnect with Laura on LinkedIn or TwitterConnect with Abi on LinkedIn or Twitter

Tara Hernandez, the VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB, joins the podcast to give an inside look at what the developer experience looks like at an organization that develops a database. Here, Tara shares what it looks like to develop, test, and release changes at MongoDB, while also providing insight into how the company invests in developer productivity more broadly. Discussion points:  (0:57) What was going on at the time Tara joined  (4:37) Tara's perspective on the buzz of platform engineering (7:38) What's involved in building and testing a database (10:11) The development environment at MongoDB (13:14) How testing works (16:50) What the release process looks like (19:27) What goes into performance testing a release (21:31) MongoDB's investment in engineering enablement  (22:39) Takeaways from working on databases (24:24) Affecting cultural change (26:40) Opportunities Tara's team identified to change culture (29:12) Managing technical debt (33:06) MongoDB's culture around developer experience  (34:59) Why Evergreen CI is open source Mentions and links: Follow Tara on LinkedIn or TwitterRead more about MongoDB's “Evergreen” Continuous Integration Visit MongoDB's engineering blog 

Max Kanat-Alexander, the Tech Lead for the Developer Productivity and Insights Team at LinkedIn, shares an inside look at LinkedIn's metrics platform and how teams across the organization use it. Discussion points:  (1:31) Why Max shares how his team is measuring productivity (3:20) Why some teams use metrics and some don't  (6:03) The types of metrics Max's team focuses on (12:59) The role of TPMs (17:05) How Max would measure productivity if he weren't at LinkedIn (25:04) Surprises in how teams are using metrics at LinkedIn (31:27) The tooling required to enable metrics for teams to use (36:41) Qualitative versus quantitative metrics (40:39) Measuring code quality at Google  (46:16) Whether a centralized team should own measurement Mentions and links:Connect with Max on LinkedIn or TwitterRead the article, Measuring Developer Productivity and Happiness at LinkedInListen to the first interview with Max and his colleague Or Michael Berlowitz: Episode 23Abi's blog post on the Three-Bucket Framework for Engineering Metrics

Mike Fisher, the former CTO at Etsy, spearheaded a multi-year developer experience initiative aimed at improving developer happiness and efficiency during his time at Etsy. Here, he shares the story of that initiative, including the pillars of the program and the investment that went into it. Towards the end of the conversation, Mike also shares his perspective on measuring developer productivity. Discussion points: (1:31) What was happening at Etsy when Mike joined  (4:08) The scaling challenges Etsy faced (6:08) Deciding on the term “developer experience”  (9:35) Whether developer experience is a new approach (11:24) The pillars of Etsy's DevEx initiative  (15:49) Converting the length of time required for this initiative (18:11) The investment allocated to the initiative  (20:04) Talking about the ROI of devex initiatives  (22:50) Who was actually leading this work (24:37) Etsy's experience with platform teams  (30:42) Advice for leaders championing DevEx initiatives (34:45) Framing the conversation about getting budget for a DevEx initiative (37:45) How leaders can address the efficiency conversation (42:00) Measuring productivity  (45:49) The “experiment velocity” metric  ‍Mentions and links:Follow Mike on LinkedIn or TwitterSubscribe to Mike's newsletter, Fish Food for Thought

Karl's team at American Airlines were early adopters of Backstage, and in this episode he shares their journey of implementing and rolling out a developer portal. He also describes two of the extensions his team has built for their portal. Discussion points: (1:24) Where the idea of building a developer portal came from (7:24) What the developer experience looked like before the portal  (10:41) Initiating the project (14:16) The decision to choose Backstage  (16:28) The V1 scope for the portal  (19:14) Getting adoption for the portal (23:35) Defining success for the portal's adoption  (28:04) The ideal state for how developers will use the portal (30:56) Who should or shouldn't invest in building a developer portal  (33:14) Custom extensions Karl's team has developed for their portal (37:46) What's difficult about developing a new plugin for the backstage platform ‍Mentions and links:Follow Karl on LinkedInThe Runway platform at American Airlines Read more on the engineering blog from American Airlines 

As product lead, Russ Nealis has been focused on introducing the discipline of product management in the Developer Foundations organization. This episode discusses the reasons why PMs are currently uncommon in platform organizations, examples of when having a PM has been helpful, and more. Discussion points: (1:23) Russ's role at Plaid  (2:49) Why platform product managers are uncommon (3:28) Backgrounds to look for when hiring a platform PM (4:58) Deciding whether to hire a platform PM (6:20) Signs that bringing in a Product Manager would be beneficial (9:16) How Russ personally became a platform PM (12:15) Whether a platform PM is a career path  (14:55) Articulating the business impact a platform PM has (18:56) Challenges Plaid's platform team has faced without a PM   (19:19) Symptoms of a need for product management in an internal-facing team (30:15) Whether Twilio had platform PMs   (31:22) Example projects where PMs have been crucial (34:12) How the book “Ask Your Developer” influenced Twilio's engineering culture  (36:13) Getting started with introducing a product management discipline to an organization  (38:33) Org structure and where platform PMs may report  (40:00) Career ladder for platform PM when reporting to engineering leadership (41:20) Being product-led or technology-led (43:14) How technical skills may help when in a platform PM role ‍Mentions and links: Follow Russ on LinkedIn Episode 7 with Will Larson - related to why it's difficult to find Platform PMsEpisode 27 with Jean-Michel Lemieux - related to the percentage of investment that should be put towards platform investments The Build Trap by Melissa PerriAsk Your Developer by Jeff Lawson

In this deep-dive episode, Brian Scanlan, Principal Systems Engineer at Intercom, describes how the company's on-call process works. He explains how the process started and key changes they've made over the years, including a new volunteer model, changes to compensation, and more.Discussion points: (1:28) How on-call started at Intercom (10:11) Brian's background and interest in being on-call (14:06) Getting engineers motivated to be on-call  (16:37) Challenges Intercom saw with on-call as it grew (19:53) Having too many people on-call (23:20) Having alarms that aren't useful  (26:03) Recognizing uneven workload with compensation (27:22) Initiating changes to the on-call process  (30:08) Creating a volunteer model (33:02) Addressing concerns that volunteers wouldn't take action on alarms  (34:40) Equitability in a volunteer model (36:36) Expectations of expertise for being on-call (40:56) How volunteers sign up  (44:15) The Incident Commander role  (46:19) Using code review for changes to alarms (50:02) On-call compensation  (52:50) Other approaches to compensating on-call (55:08) Whether other companies should compensate on-call (57:32) How Intercom's on-call process compares to other companies  (1:00:46) Recent changes to the on-call process (1:04:13) Balancing responsiveness and burnout  (1:07:12) Signals for evaluating the on-call process  ‍Mentions and links:  Follow Brian on LinkedIn or Twitter  Brian's article: How we fixed our on call process to avoid engineer burnout Gergely Orosz's On-Call Compensation 

Jack Li explains how his production engineering team rolled out a new incident review process, how they've made the case for investing in reliability, and specific tools his team has built to improve reliability.—Discussion points: (1:25) How Jack became interested in reliability  (3:24) Where the Instagram Reels team fits into the broader organization (4:05) What Jack's team focuses on (4:55) The role of production engineering at Instagram versus Shopify  (8:32) The essence of DevOps (10:44) Pros and cons of having product-focused teams (13:35) How Jack's team defines and tracks quality (15:46) Signals the team monitors outside of systems  (18:10) Revamping Instagram Reel's incident management process (19:46) Making the case for improving the incident review process (28:10) How their incident review process works (31:55) The roles involved in an incident review  (33:40) The value of having incident reviews (35:55) Why leaders should be part of incident reviews  (38:34) Why Jack's team builds tools for driving reliability goals (40:06) The types of tools Jack's team focuses on  (43:09) What a merge queue is and why it was built at Shopify (51:20) Using a Slack bot for ‘failed build' alerts (52:32) When a company should consider implementing a merge queue —Mentions and links: Follow Jack on LinkedIn Jack's article from his time on Shopify about their Merge QueueJack's talk on Shopify's Merge Queue at GitHub Universe 2019

Nathen Harvey, who leads DORA at Google, explains what DORA is, how it has evolved in recent years, the common challenges companies face as they adopt DORA metrics, and where the program may be heading in the future.—Discussion points:(1:48) What DORA is today and how it exists within Google(3:37) The vision for Google and DORA coming together(5:20) How the DORA research program works(7:53) Who participates in the DORA survey(9:28) How the industry benchmarks are identified (11:05) How the reports have evolved over recent years(13:55) How reliability is measured (15:19) Why the 2022 report didn't have an Elite category(17:11) The new Slowing, Flowing, and Retiring clusters(19:25) How to think about applying the benchmarks(20:45) Challenges with how DORA metrics are used(24:02) Why comparing teams' DORA metrics is an antipattern (26:18) Why ‘industry' doesn't matter when comparing organizations to benchmarks (29:32) Moving beyond DORA metrics to optimize organizational performance (30:56) Defining different DORA metrics(36:27) Measuring deployment frequency at the team level, not the organizational level(38:29) The capabilities: there's more to DORA than the four metrics (43:09) How DORA and SPACE are related(47:58) DORA's capabilities assessment tool (49:26) Where DORA is heading—Mentions and links:Follow Nathen on LinkedIn or TwitterEngineering Enablement episode with Dr. Nicole Forsgren2022 State of DevOps report  Bryan Finster's How to Use & Abuse DORA Metrics (and Abi's summary of the paper) Engineering Enablement episode with Dr. Margaret-Anne StoreyJoin the DORA community for discussion and events: dora.community