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Intro: Writing personallyLet Me Run This By You: What would you say to your inner child?Interview: We talk to Ed Ryan about surviving two theatre schools, surviving 9/11, and interrupted grief.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And I'm scared. Like, I think partially 1 00:00:34This is this, the main character is based on me. Like all our character. I think every writer writes about themselves. I don't care what you say, aspects of themselves. So I'm like, man, would I do this stuff? Would I, how far would I go to people please? Like that? That is what I'm wrestling with. That is what is, is, how far do we go? And how far would I go to people please? Now I don't think I'd go that far, but people do go far. 2 00:00:59People go far and feel like they're in a few state and feel like it wasn't them. That was making the choice. And, and I believe that I believe that that can happen. I also just think it's interesting in the lens of like, feeling, having felt for a long period of your life, that you weren't allowed to have certain emotions. It makes sense to me that you would be surprising yourself with where you can go in your imagination, but that would also lead to, you know, surprisingly like our, we had a conversation one time on here where I said, I don't feel like I've ever seen you angry. So, and you, you said you do get angry, but I just wonder if maybe there's just a lot of unexpressed anger and this is a great way to get it out. 1 00:01:42Totally. And I, and I think you're right. I think you're right on. And so, and I also think, and I wonder how, you know, how you feel about the idea that writing, right? Somebody, I wonder if people write and I don't know how you write, but if people read, I mean, I know a little how you write, but if peop, if people can ever write fully devoid from their own person, you know, like, like where they don't put themselves in their characters or their, if they're writing, I guess maybe if you're writing non-fiction I don't know. But when you write, do you agree that like each part of you and every, oh yeah, 100%. 2 00:02:24And I, I, in reading the Stephen King book about writing, you know, he, he realized like years after the fact about the way that he was writing himself in his stories, like, I guess famously and in misery, he is when he was at the height of drug addiction. And he, at the time he did not feel that he was writing the story about himself, but that's what it ended up being. Yeah. I mean, in part, just because like, how else would you do it? I mean, you only have your own as close as you can be to anybody else. What you really stuck with 24 7 is the ruminations in your own mind, the reactions to things, your worldview, your worldview is, is so people can recognize a lot of things about their worldview, but then there's all kinds of things about their own perspective that they would never think unless they had occasion to see it, contrast it with something else and say, oh, wow, I think about that really differently. 2 00:03:21So anyway, I think it's cool. I think it's great that you're going there and I'm excited to see where it goes. 1 00:03:32Let me run this by you. I started seeing, so I had a therapist that was this Orthodox Jewish man that I stopped seeing. It was just it. I always what I, you know, and it's so blatant at the time after, but during, during, I never see, like, I'm looking for like a father figure. And, and he started to say things that were, and it's all I'm on the phone, you know, but like he has six kids and he wanted to, he started saying things like, do you think that this is because you never had kids kind of like why my emotions? 2 00:04:13And I said, you know, 1 00:04:15I don't know it could be, but I, and you know, it was it's interesting. So I just had to say, you know what, I'm so-and-so, I think that I'm going to take a pause on this. I just don't feel that were, I was proud of myself. I said, I just don't feel like it's a good match right now for me, a good fit. I couldn't just say it's so funny. I have to qualify it. Like, I couldn't just say this isn't a good fit. I was like, not a fit right now for trying to soften that. Just ridiculous stuff, but that's how I did it. And yeah. And so I, I was like, okay, well, do I want to get another therapist? Or do I want to, so I do see like a coach, like, what do I want to do? 1 00:04:55So I started seeing, I had a first session with a coach outside in a park. Who's a, she coaches, she does a lot of career coaching, but I just, like, I've known her for a while. And I liked her and we got to some interesting stuff like, you know, and you've said some stuff about like inner child stuff. Like I never really felt like I could connect with the idea of making peace or taking care of my inner child. And I couldn't understand why. And I think I got to the point where the reason I I'm afraid to things that my inner child will hurt me or that I will hurt it. 2 00:05:35Her. Yeah. 1 00:05:37So, so I thought I'd tell you about that. 2 00:05:41Hurt you. Any idea what you mean by that? Like 1 00:05:44Sabotage, like my inner child is so angry at the way that my parents, and then I have been treating her that she will fuck things up. Hm. 2 00:05:54Yeah. By misbehaving. Yes. 1 00:05:57Misbehaving sabotaging. So there's not a trust there. There's not a trust. And I wouldn't have ever, whenever I, in the various forms of therapy and schooling that I've done in this area, I always felt really, it's not even that I bristled with when we did inner child work. It's like, I thought, well, I don't even know this is weird. I don't even know what this is. 2 00:06:23Yeah. I totally, I can totally relate. And I think I have had the same exact opinion, this very cynical sort of point of view. It all seems so I would just want to roll my eyes talking about inner child, but I think it's like that thing that I was telling you about when I did that thing on clubhouse and everybody was playing and I was just afraid of it. I think it's just that I think you learn to hide the parts of yourself that get you in trouble in the world for whatever reason. And then if there are parts of yourself that you first identify when you were very young, they're locked away. Good. They're locked away. Real good. And there's a real, I mean, just intense fear about going there. 2 00:07:07And I guess like the best signal that I have about that is that every time I start to think about it or talking about it, I start to cry, which, okay, well, there's obviously a lot there. I, I don't believe, see my thing about it is like for a long time I did therapy. I did. I've I'll total in total. I've probably done therapy. I'm going to say for like 10 years between different therapists. I, it's not that I think I'm done. It's not, you know, it's not that I don't want to be in therapy. I, there are reasons that I'm not in it right now, but I just very quickly be talking about my childhood became like, okay, but I talked about it and now I'm just complaining. 2 00:07:56Or, you know, now this is just, when are you going to get over? And that's the voice of like everybody in my family, like get over it. Everybody's everybody hurts. Like not even, not, not even everybody hurts, just like, get over it. You're your grownup. There's no time for that anymore. And I, that is the voice that I cannot quiet in my own head. So, whereas at one point in my life, I thought I had done all that. Cause I did 10 years of therapy. Now I realized I just never even approached it. I stuck with things that were more happening in my life now. Or like I would spend a lot of time like crying about my dad or whatever, but it wasn't like it's, you know, that was about him. 2 00:08:37It was about me talking about him. It wasn't really about me talking about me because I think when I started talking about myself, that's when all the walls and defenses went up and I was like, you know, and I, and I couldn't do it. And Aaron has said to me, a number of times, like you've never really dealt with this stuff and I, and I've just been so incredulous, like, of course I have, I've done, I've dealt with it a ton, but I really haven't. I haven't, I've done like layers of it, but I haven't, I haven't done all the layers. 1 00:09:06Yeah. And I, I could totally hear that and I can totally relate to not feeling, to feeling like I haven't really touched on it. And the reason I know that I haven't gotten to the core of sort of any inner child work is that yesterday when I was, when she had me doing an exercise outside in the park, like just trying to approach my inner child, the only way I could make contact with her was across a field with loud noise in the background with me yelling and her yelling back. So like not screaming at each other, but like there was, had to be a barrier. Like I couldn't the intimacy of approaching her straight on was too much. 1 00:09:46So I was like, Hey, I'm over here. And she said, hi, I'm over there. And she was like, really suspicious of me and stuff. But I knew like, oh, I'm really having, I have a lot of trepidation about approaching this part of myself. And so I have to have a separation, like a barrier. It has to be, it has to be moderated. It can't be like, I can't just walk up to her. There's no way in hell. There's no way. 2 00:10:13What's it. Like when you look at pictures of yourself, when you were really young, what did you think? 1 00:10:17I feel like I don't even know who that person is. Yeah. 2 00:10:21I have the same exact, whereas I know this just could be the difference between thinking about yourself and thinking about another person. When I look at even very, very young, young baby pictures of my kids, I think, oh yeah, their personality was there. You know, from the beginning, this is who they still are. And sometimes I'll share, I'll show them something and they'll say, you know, it seems like they kind of recognize. Yeah, that's me. Whereas I look at that person and I think, I mean, I've seen this picture before, but I, I have what, who is that per yeah, I've just have no idea. I think I, what I basically did, starting in theater school is just form a whole new set to start over. 2 00:11:05I just formed a whole new identity. I was just like, not to the point that some people get like my sister where they tell everybody that our parents are dead. But to the point of just, yeah, I'm this person now. And you know, and I'm, and I'm done with that other person, whoever she was, I hated her no matter what. And of course the realization realization I have recently is no, but I still hate myself. So I really haven't a changed divorce. And I, and there's a, you can't walk away from who you are, you have, you have to. 1 00:11:37Right. And, and, and I, I, my coach, Deanna, was like I said, I don't know who that person is. And she said, she's you, you just haven't integrated her yet. Like there it's you. And I was like, whole, I saw it as a separate sort of. So it's interesting. And she said, trauma, you know, we talked about neuroplasticity of the brain and trauma and, and how it's rewiring. Like, so, and she's like, I don't really believe in, well, I don't know if she said this, but I got, kind of got the feeling. She was like, she didn't really believe in mantras and all that, but she said, what happens? What do you start telling yourself when you are scared? 1 00:12:19Or when you have an audition, that's scary. I say, I'm going to screw this up. That's my mantra. I'm going to somehow screw this up. I'm going to, she's like, all right, we have to cut that off immediately. She's like, I don't care what you say, but you can't say that to yourself anymore. So I was like, okay, what can I believe? Like, what can I get stand behind? Because I'm not going to say, oh, I'm the greatest actor and everything. No, no, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that at all. But what I do believe it, I do have evidence to show in my heart and in my bones that things have that everything is happening at the time it's supposed to be happening. I do believe that I do. I can stand behind that. I can't say it's good. I can't say it's awesome, but I can say, so she said, all right, we're just going to go with that. So now, like, you know, I think, oh, what if I get a call back for this role I really want, and I know I'm going to fuck it up. 1 00:13:04And I said, Nope, it's going to happen. If, if I do fuck it up, it's going to be, because it was the time to fuck it up. Like I have to believe in the timing of things, because I can't really believe in the goodness of things, is that, you know, 2 00:13:17Right. And sort of similar to that is how I'm always just thinking in my mind that I'm just starting over at that. I'm always just putting the other the past behind me. It's, that's not you that you can't really do that. And, and it's all, it's every failure in every experience you go through every part and every iteration of yourself is a part of whatever it is now. It's not. So what's what this is making me think about is when I was in private practice, I became sort of known for treating really severe trauma cases. And so almost all of them had did. 2 00:13:58And the technique for integration when a person has multiple selves and just for people who are listening, it's not like civil, civil, and bark, like a dog, whatever. It's really a lot more subtle than that. Now in severe cases, people have these few states where they go and they're just doing something else. I mean, I had, I had clients who would get themselves. They would go into a few state and then do terrible things that really dangerous, dangerous, terrible thing. But the technique is you have them all sit around a conference table. 2 00:14:38You have, what's amazing to me is if, if you're talking to a person who suffers with us and they've never heard this technique before, they never go conference table, they go, okay. Yeah. They're, I mean, they're just immediately, oh, that's a good idea. They can all come together because of they're in their experience. They feel or see. And they all have very often, they all have different names and different ages and they have different things and they fight with each other about what they're doing. So I say, let's just do the conference table thing. Let's have everybody meet together and we can work on the agenda. But like the underwriting overriding thing has to be we, whatever we do, we want to do it United. 2 00:15:20And what it gets tricky is when you're, you're not doing it United and everybody's, and that's the sabotage thing. That's what you get a lot of it. The sabotage thing is like this one is, and it's all because it was all a coping strategy for not being able to, you know, the parts of yourself that were rejected by whomever get shunned. They don't go away. They just get shunted off into another part of you. And it's funny because I really see a lot of my dysfunction feels splintered like that. Like I can say, I can click into a mode. That's happy, happy, and positive. And, but then if I'm not feeling happy and positive, then it's like, I'm not that person anymore. 2 00:16:03I'm just this other sad, depressed person. Or sometimes I'm, you know, we all have it to some degree and I feel it a little too. It doesn't feel like different parts of me that have different names, but it still feels like it needs a lot more integrating. 1 00:16:18Yes, I totally agree with that. And the other thing I worry about, and I think, and I, I don't know if you've ever worried. I worry that might the, that part of myself, the small, vulnerable, whatever, I would say five or six year old part of myself is going to disclose some, even more deep trauma happened. 2 00:16:38Okay. There you go. That's probably exactly right. 1 00:16:41And I don't want to, and I am like, I don't know if I can handle that. Like I, so she is the keeper of secrets of when I was young and who knows what the hell really went on. Like I could have been worse than I thought is the, is the, is the, is the overarching fear 2 00:16:59I can see why you would be afraid then. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if part of your way it is going to be instead of, or like in addition to fearing that is like, yeah, that's scary, but she needs help. She needs, yeah. 1 00:17:14Yeah. That's what, that's what Deanna said too. It was like, yeah. She needs to be seen and heard. Yeah. And that's your way to freedom. And I was like, what? Because whenever someone says the way to freedom, like that interests me because freedom from such self doubt, freedom from such self-loathing or fear, you know, self like freedom from that seems amazing. So if someone tells me, you want to get free from this, you know, as long as they're not telling me some wackadoo stuff, but you, you want freedom from this thing, then it's going to take a certain amount of work. I'm like that, that I'm curious if I will do that word, which is just to say 2 00:17:58To our listeners, that the experience of doing this podcast has people are always reporting to us. Oh, I've reconnected with people. I'm, I'm healing things and remembering things, but that's true for us too. And I have reconnected with people that I haven't spoken to in a number of years. And it's so gratifying. I mean, that, that's actually another piece of this disintegration thing is like the person I was when I was in theater school and the friends I had. And I just basically with the exception of you just moved on from that and never looked back and you know, these are people that I love that I loved then, and that, you know, as I'm reconnecting with them, I'm like, oh yeah, you're amazing. 2 00:18:48And I'm just so grateful that we're having the opportunity to do this. I, this is what college reunions are meant to do, but they don't because it's kinda like one, you know, it's just, it's all because you just get through one layer of like, well, what do you look like? And what are you doing? As, you know, as an and, and I guess social media has changed that for people, like they get a better sense, but, but that's even, that is not the same as actually talking to somebody who you haven't talked to. And then now I'm like texting with people and it's fun. It's and then the other thing, which I've mentioned to you at least once before, but I'm still thinking about a lot is the people who I don't remember, but who remember me to me, that means I have just been so self absorbed that w that to, to a great degree. 2 00:19:43When I think back about that time, I, I almost can only think about myself and how I felt about things and whether I was getting treated well, or, you know, instead of like the fact, I mean, I guess that's human, but I just feel like if there's somebody who remembers me, then there's a re then the reason that I don't remember them is not anything other than I was just paying only attention to myself. And I, and I have compassion for myself about it because I, you know, it was just doing the best I could, but I'm interested in going back and healing those riffs too, because I, I think that something happens that has happened to me over time is like, I was never the most popular or the least popular. 2 00:20:37I was always in the middle, which meant that I ended up looking down on the people who were less popular than me and, and looking up to and resenting the people. So it was, I was just seeing everything in terms of like status status. Yeah. That's what it is. I have been entirely status obsessed in a way that is a complete surprise to me. I had no idea that I was status obsessed and it makes sense because that's how my parents are. That's how everybody, I mean, that's how a lot of people are. Why would I be unique? Why would I be exempt from 1 00:21:10Them? Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that we, that I get get, so I get so trapped in thinking I'm uniquely where I'm at, and that is garbage. I am a unique human because everyone is to a certain extent. And then we're all the freaking same. We're all worried about what we look like, what we sound like, who, what, what other people think of? What other people think of us and how we're coming off. And, you know, that's part of being human, but I think you're right. I think for me as well, when people remember things, I don't remember, people were like, yeah, we were friends and I'm thinking we were friends. And that is because I was too busy probably thinking about myself and what else I could do, or why it's, it's what they say in 12 step programs, really about self centered fear. 1 00:21:55It's like, I'm so self-centered, and, and 2 00:21:59She'll warm. I'm I'm shit, but I'm, but I'm 1 00:22:03Yeah, shit. Or I'm the special warm and a, not a worker among workers, you know, like it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. And we come by and see the thing that's really also interesting to me is that we come by it, honestly, that is the part that I have to remember. It's that the people come by the shit, honestly, including me, I'm not so special that I don't come by it, honestly, it's not right. You know? 2 00:22:26Yeah. I mean, right. Yeah. I think it is. It's completely amazing. I'm completely great. I, I'm an apropos of our conversation that we had a while ago about like constantly evaluating our progress. Like when I can get away from doing that, I'm just full of gratitude for, for, for what we're, what we've already done. Even if we never did it again after this, what we've already done has been so personally helpful. Yeah, 1 00:22:54Me too. And I do see it as a way also as, as we move forward as artists, as a way of building allyship with people that I once looked at as not nemesis, maybe, but like as adversaries or doing better than me or doing worse than me, or now it's, it just seems more they're equal. Like I feel more equal with people and I think that's a better way to go, because the other way is like, 2 00:23:20It's also just the truer way to go. Like, it's just a lie. We tell ourselves when we think we're so sped. It's like, okay. But I mean, among other things, it's simply a false, 1 00:23:31Which is why, like, things like the like organized, like army and stuff works because you all get put in basic training and no one is better than the, there were, you're all lower, lowest on totem pole. And I think that builds some kind of comradery. And yeah. So anyway, I just, I just, I don't know why I was thinking about that, but I liked that idea. 2 00:23:55I, I started to watch some of the showcase this year is DePaul theater school shows. I was just curious if you had seen any of them. I 1 00:24:07Have seen it. And you know, it's interesting. I, the, the way that they filmed it, for the most part, it's the same camera shots, right. Of each I'm like, okay, okay. I think that we could have been a little more original with that, but I think they were trying to be equal to everybody and not quote you. And, and also 2 00:24:30It's not a film school. I mean that, you know, I, I, for that reason, I give it a lot of credit because it's like, oh, wow. I wonder if somebody had been tasked doing that in our year. I'm, I'm not certain we would have gotten anywhere. It would've been 1 00:24:44In video camera shaking and like, yeah, yeah, 2 00:24:47Yeah. So it's cool. I'm happy for them that they have this. I mean, I'm happy for them that they have this access. It's probably has the same effect that it did when we did the in-person thing, which is like, not a lot, unless they're going to move to LA. But what I felt was interesting is looking at the acting and just remembering, like, talk about not being special. We all did bad acting in the same way, you know, which is to say not connected, not real, very, very self-monitoring of like, how is this coming across? You can see people thinking that, how is this coming across? Versus there was a few people who was like, oh no, they're in it. 2 00:25:29They're totally there. They're there. It's just ed. And I say, this was so much compassion because I think probably the entire time I was just looking, I was just observing myself. I'm sure I did a terrible job. Yeah. And 1 00:25:41I can see it too. And I, you, it sticks out when someone's really in it. And it is so hot. And we said this, and I, I think we've talked about this on the podcast. It's so hard to get there. It's hard to get, to stop the self-monitoring to be in the moment and just tell the story or be in the it's so hard. So what it happens and you see it, you're like, oh, that's gold, that's gold. And it's not to say that, you know, we all get there at different times and we have different moments of it, but yeah. 2 00:26:09Yeah. What's hard to account for, I mean, you know, to a certain degree, there is only so much teaching that somebody can do of actors, because what you really need also is just these life experiences that either do, or don't lead you in the direction of really understanding yourself. And if you're a person who is not interested in understanding yourself, you're probably pretty limited as an actor or, or like, or maybe even very successful, but just that one, you know? Yeah. Right, 1 00:26:39Right. You might, you might make a million dollars, but as we talked about it, that not equal being in the moment and being it truly like for me in an experience, just because you made a million dollars doing it does not. I, I is a recent, recent, recent discovery that worth and money are not necessarily the same. Oh my God. Oh my God. 2 00:27:04Me too, girl. Me too. I'm just like, yeah, because actually there are other, I've heard the phrase. It's not always about money, but I really have never lived it. I have always been like, no, no, no. It's always 0 00:27:26Today on the podcast, we're talking with Edward Ryan, Edward is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to have many adventures and different incarnations as an artist and is still on that adventure. And he's thoughtful and kind. So please enjoy our conversation with Edward Ryan. 3 00:27:47I was, I was a year below you guys. Okay. Okay. Okay. Edward, 2 00:27:52Ryan, congratulations. You survived theater school. I did twice. Twice. Yeah, because you just went back a few years ago to get your degree. So tell us about 4 00:28:03That. That was a very different, yeah. So you know what I did do some local theater, like a while ago I met a costumer and his name was Frank and he wound up teaching at a really small private school in Springfield, Massachusetts. And he's basically started a theater program there that's called American international college. And he said to me one day, like, how come you never finished your degree? He was like, give me your transcripts. And I, I, I got my transcripts. And he was like, you could be done in like a year and a half or two years and have a decree. 4 00:28:47Well, I didn't know I was going to be so, you know, affected by, was it, it's a school that serves a lot of sort of underserved communities. So there's a lot of first-generation Americans, a lot of first-generation college students. And in contrast to a place like DePaul, although we complained about the building on north Kenmore, the facility, there's nothing. I mean, they have nothing, these kids and, but their like passion and their drive is really what you know is so inspirational, you know? And they're like, we can make theater out of anything, you know, out of nothing. And it was kind of a strange situation because Frank and I were very good friends, you know? So all of a sudden he was like my professor and I mostly had to do academic classes to graduate there. 4 00:29:33You know, they took all my credits and I re I did a history of theater. I was like for like the third time, like all of, you know, this time I wasn't able to cheat. As I remember 2 00:29:46Cheating, I did cheat, oh 4 00:29:48My God. Anaconda make us, had every test that doc, whatever his name was, Jack O'Malley gave us. Oh, hilarious. And I've always been really studious, but like second year I was like, oh yeah. You know, give them up. 2 00:30:05That's funny because I don't actually remember the cheating thing, but when Dave was on, he, he referenced that, I guess it was widespread. I mean, you know, in a way, I'm sure they were like, oh, these kids they're so dumb. Just something easy. 4 00:30:20Get the same test every year, year after year after year. And luckily I lived, I lived with second years. So it was like, and you know, and she had them all, like, she was a stage manager, dramaturgy, Jenna, all a file. I just had to go in every week and pull it out. Yeah. 2 00:30:35I mean, are you the, one of the people who just got a brochure from DePaul and that's how you went 4 00:30:40With, yeah. With this gesture on the front, I never went to visit the school. I auditioned in New York and it was, you know, I had applied to NYU and I had an audition set up, but their auditions for summer, I didn't audition at the same time. And it was like really late. And I applied to Providence college. That was, if I wanted to like go the more academic route, dammit. And I remember going for my audition and I, I like heard really quickly that I got into DePaul and I just decided I never even went on my audition for NYU. 4 00:31:21I, I thought that the city would probably be a little too, you know, I was, I lived near the city. So it was like always my grandfather lived in the city and I thought that's going to be too much of a distraction, you know? And I really wanted to, you know, get an education. So I went to Chicago and I flew out and my parents drove all my stuff out. 2 00:31:42What, like, what did you make of it? Day one. What was, where was your head at with it? 4 00:31:47I was like, Chicago is so clean compared to New York. Yeah, it really is. I lived in Seton hall and I lived on the fourth floor in the corner room that was like ginormous with Cedric was Cedric steins was my roommate. And we had this other third roommate that we never liked. And then he got kicked out of the dorms, like halfway through the year. So we had this great big room and it was right above. I felt like the blues brothers, cause he looked at our window and they're like the El tracks by, but it was really close to taco burrito palace. Oh 2 00:32:24My God. I forgot all about TVP. Okay. Well they have many, you know, there's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I think that one is actually still there. 4 00:32:39That place like on a Friday or Saturday night was like, you couldn't get near it. And Rose's Tavern is like hole that the Mesopotamian woman who was like, let anybody drink. Okay. If you could walk, you choose giving 2 00:32:53Toddlers shots of you guys 4 00:32:56You'd be surprised. And there was some sort of characters in that joint. I mean, I remember like winding up at some apartment and being like, I shouldn't be here. What am I doing? 2 00:33:10So, but you left, you left after your second year. Okay. And it was rough. You said you had a rough, 4 00:33:16It was, I was, I was planning on living there. So I was living there for the summer. I was living with Cedric again and then Noel wrath. Yeah. And we were living like sort of west of everything, like up Armitage. It was like desolate. It was like this really weird apartment where I had the closet as my room. And I just remember like taking out the garbage, had to go out the back doors to this garage. And there was like this Harley biker who was always hanging out in there. I don't know if I was just like, this is where children get molested. I can't, you know, it was odd and Cedric left and he went to Africa, there was a trip to like Africa. 4 00:33:56And I remember Susan Lee was on that trip because he was like, he called us and he was like, oh, I met Susan Lee and wait, 2 00:34:07Susan Lee was just randomly in Africa with this girl. Don't you remember? That's when she came back and said to Erica, oh, I've got to teach you African dance. Okay. 4 00:34:18But, you know, I really, I really want, I was like, you know, I was kind of shocked about it and you know, I think it was a lot for me to go there. You know, I'm the youngest of five. And then my mother had remarried and I have four step kids. So my parents had like nine kids under the age of like 30. And you know, financially that no matter how much money you make, I think it's, it's a burden. And I was really committed to like the theater school. And I didn't have a warning that was sort of, you know, productive. I remember going to Rick Murphy's office and not having any morning, my first year of going in and sitting down him being like, you're fine. 4 00:34:59Get out of here. You know? And then my second year he was like, what the fuck is going on with you? You know? And he's like, what's up a tree Kessler. And I was like, I don't know if she hates me. And he was like, get your shit together or something like that, you know? But there was no like sort of actionable steps. And then when I left and asked back, I was like, wow. And you were talking about mushrooms. So for the first time I ate flushes and I wandered around Chicago and I found all these incredible places. I was like, oh my God, like a Paul said and all that. I was like input. And like I realized, I was like, in my own backyard, I thought I was lost. But I, you know, I have like some journal entries about Sundays are the best day in the world. 4 00:35:40Everybody does what they want. Even God rested on Sunday. And it was so much fun. Yeah. All by myself, just wandering around the city. But you know, people were like, oh right. Speaking of that, I remember I was dying during Eric Slater's interview because we got a phone call at like 6:00 AM, one day at apartment two downstairs. And it was Eric and he was, he had been arrested. And it must've been when you guys were doing Andrew CLIs and the lion, because he was like walking home. It was really late. He was walking home from our house, I guess. And the cops stopped him and arrested him. 4 00:36:21And we were like, he had to be like at the Merle reskin theater for this purport, like that morning. And I think we wound up calling John Bridges and it turns out they had just taken and he looked like a shady character. 3 00:36:38I don't know. But I wanted to ask 2 00:36:43Total digression, but I always thought in lineups, they got other criminal, like people that they know, they know and they can just random. Yeah. They get rent. I don't know about now. But you used to do this random ass people for lineups. Yeah. But the way you get them there is by arresting them. Well, I think you can, apparently in Chicago, 4 00:37:05I think he was drunk. He was probably stumbling. Maybe he was like, had a few beers and they were just like, oh yeah, public drunkenness let's go. But that was like one of the funniest. And it was like the day that my mother called me late, it was like crisis. You know, we went into crisis mode and it was like, she got out her clipboard and like gave us all the assignments. And then my mother called me that morning and she was like, is everything all right? And I always thought, I was like, you know, my mom just says that like intuition, you know? And I was like, everything's fine. You know? Like, and I remember saying to her, I'm like, I think your psychic should always, so you're, you're saying, so 2 00:37:47You didn't, it was, there was no, I mean, there was a warning without any information in it or 4 00:37:55Yeah, there wasn't really anything specific, you know? And like I had truly Kessler my second year for voice and speech. And I had had Ruth's Rupert who you, she was there for a really short period of time. And then she left, she came back and she was like, oh, I got a contract. I'll be here next year. And then she came back like the next week and was like, I'm leaving. And she got a job at Yale and she went off to teach at Yale and she taught Christian Linklaters work. And then Trudy, our second year. And I was sort of excited to, I guess, first she taught LSAC and other things and was doing Linklater again. 4 00:38:37So it was sort of like the same class again in a row. And I think Ruth was a really great Linklater teacher. And I don't know if I don't know Trudy and I just had something. I still tell, I, I S I'm still in contact with Ruth. She's my Alexander technique teacher now. And there was a 13 year gap in our relationship, but she'll always say like, oh, I'm going to this conference, Judy. I said, hi. You know, cause when I got my letter, it said that I had three absences from voice and speech. 4 00:39:18And to this day I say, no, I didn't, I would have never done that. Like I was pretty committed. She, I had a full freedom, so I was born like tongue tie and she was like, I want you to go. I never had any speech issues, but she's like, I want you to go see this doctor. So I went to see this Dr. Bastion. And he was an ear nose and throat guy that worked with actors in Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, let me clip it. And he's like, I've never gotten to do it. And I was like, so it's a little thing underneath your tongue. So it's, it actually tells your tongue behind your bottom teeth. Like everybody's develops that way when you're pouring it recedes. 4 00:40:00If you're not, they usually just clip it when you were born, but they never discovered mine. And so I wound up letting this doctor like do it. And then I had rehearsal for like my intro with Trudy. And I just remember meeting her in her office and her being like sticking her thumb in my mouth and being like, oh yeah, you have a significant overbite. Like, and just saying like, you know, you don't have a speech issue, but maybe if you got your tongue released, it would change your speech. You know, it's, I would love to see what it does. You know, I just felt like I was pretty committed to it. And David was my acting teacher second year. 4 00:40:40And in David's class it was like, I could do no wrong. You know what I mean? I remember like almost hating it, like him being like some like, okay, you know, you critique each other's like scenes or improv or whatever you were doing. And he would say, so who saw what ed was doing? And somebody was critiquing it. And they were like, what are you? He was like, you know, what are you talking about? Like, he was like, he was fine. Like, he was like, my opinion is the only one that matters. So, you know, and just being like, okay, so now they hate, 3 00:41:14I have to say I'm shocked that, you 2 00:41:16Know, usually the story is that the second year acting teacher hates your guts and then you get cut. Like, that was my experience. Cause I was cut and then asked back crazy, crazy. But, but it's interesting that David, that thought you could do no wrong in your, as your acting teacher? 4 00:41:39Well, it was really weird because I had David and first quarter I was in David's intro and he gave me a better grade in my intro. Then he did an acting class and I remember him saying to me, do you know why I did that? And me being like, yeah, like, and really having no clue. But I remember, I remember getting into a fight with him in that rehearsal for that intro and him saying something to being able to like, okay, well what, what, what do you want? And he was like, I don't know what, you know, just, you better try something else. Cause that's not working. Like he yelled at me and everybody was like, oh, and David and I used to take these, walks around the block at the theater school and have these little chats. And he was like, you know, he, he, he gave me every indication that he thought I was talented. 4 00:42:22And then I remember my second year of him saying to me, do you really want to be here for another two years? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I really want a degree. And he was like, what are you going to get out of us Shakespeare classes? And I remember, and I was like, oh. And then I remember telling him about my issues with Trudy and him being like, you know, Trudy he's like, I'm the head of the voice and speech, which I didn't even didn't really even know at the time, you know, it was odd to me that he was, and, and then, but then he gave me, but then he gave me a bad grade, like enacting class. And so it was sort of like this. I was like, what the fuck? 4 00:43:02Like what, you know? And I just, you know, and then in my intros I was always like a middle-aged alcoholic. Like every single one, you know, or that I was like the alcoholic vicar in that horrible, a farce that thought it'll coat did where my, like I walked in the room in my pants, you know? And Corpus, yeah. It was like, first of all, farce is tough. You know, it's a tough, and for some reason they thought, you know, I heard this a lot about our class. Like, oh, these guys could do it. Like they could graph it. Well, guess what we couldn't and it fucking sucked. It was just like Riddick. 4 00:43:43I was like, Betty Hill, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was just like, it, it, 2 00:43:50It, it's hard to be funny care, but like the experience it makes you funny 4 00:43:59Is that I remember seeing David's like intro second quarter. It was like bomb and Gilliad. And I was like, why don't I get to play one of these like transvestite hookers? Like I can do that. And then it just wasn't, it, it was like the autumn garden, my last one. And again, it was like, I mean, Eric Yancey, I drink so much peach tea my second year of, cause the dining room was my first one. And it was like all of these like waspy, you know, I played like one little boy, that's the scene. We, we, we sorta had a yelling match about, but it was so I don't know. I mean, I was, I was, I remember Noel being like I got in and you didn't. 4 00:44:43I was just like, I didn't really, the thing was, I thought they stopped going to New York for the, I didn't ever have a desire to be on television or in the movies I wanted to be in the theater. And I went to the theater school and I sort of saw that transitioning transition happening. It was kind of like, I have no desire to live in LA. I just think it's like the new years and fake foods. Like, that's all I could think of when I'm thinking of LA. Like it was a desert, everything there is artificial. Like every, every blade of grass is like planted. I don't know. And I thought I was okay with it for a while. Cause when I moved home and my stepfather died kind of suddenly like that summer and you know, it was one of those things like, okay, everything happens for a reason, you know, it's really hard. 4 00:45:34Yeah. My mom, my father had passed away, but he was sick for a really long time. And so I think she was like prepared for that and she wasn't really prepared for my stepfather dying. And so I was okay with it for a long time, but I really, till recently we realized like, I think it really, you know, I remember somebody calling me and asking me to do it a play and not wanting to do it because I had to a lot of musical theater. And I was like, when I did the first play, I was like, wow, musical series is so hard. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, you know, I sang a lot, but I was like, I hate singing. 4 00:46:14You know, I really don't even like it. And I just, so I, you know, I never saw myself as any Shakespeare characters. Like I was like, you know, I had to read every male part in high school and English class. I read every like male part while the teacher read every female part. And I was like, I hate Shakespeare. Maybe this isn't the place for me. What was disappointing about it is that I wanted it to agree, you know? And I was a good student and I think that my circumstance, this is just sort of allowed me to sort of flounder a bit and not really have a, a footing, not really have any direction, you know? 4 00:47:01So I had some great mentors and I did do some more things and, but very little. And then I moved to New York and it was really not about that. You know, it was about just see what else was out there. I just excited. I was like, okay, I'm moving to New York. And I had worked for J crew for a couple of years and I had left and I called them up. It was like a move to the city. I needed a job and they gave me a job and I started going out in the city. Somebody took me to a nightclub and it was like the first time ever. I was like, you know, we would go see, I, I saw the last grateful dead show in Chicago. 4 00:47:45Like we went to fish, meaner Bana when we were out there. And when I went into this like sort of world of these nightclubs and sort of saw all of these like characters that were present, I sort of became one. You know, I was, it was like my job to go out and, and have fun in sort of a clown. And it was, it was an interesting time in my life. I like to call it the turn of the last century, but it was like from, so I guess I, I moved to the city from like 98 till 2000, or I guess it was 99 till 2003 is when I moved here. 4 00:48:37So I was there for about four years, you know, I worked at the world trade center that was, you know, and I think that compounded things. And I think it sort of made me realize that I was having a lot of fun in New York. You know, I had this, I had great roommates. We had a great loft in Brooklyn, these crazy parties that were like before Brooklyn was cool. I say like, we've priced ourselves out of it. You know, we made it cool. And then, but it was nothing I could sustain or really even monetize. 4 00:49:20You know, there was always like the job that I had to maintain to with, I really had no desire to do theater and I didn't for about another 10 years till I moved here. And, and I was okay with that, you know, I was sort of working in retail and I realized, you know, later that the whole going out and becoming this like character, which I didn't really think I was doing at the time, but I really was, you know, doing things that I'd never done before, or, you know, even these parties were like insane. 4 00:50:02We would like wear like Russian military uniforms and have 200 people in a Japanese go-go band at our house and fill up, we would like fill up kiddie pools with water. We had a great space. And so we did, and I lived with a caricature artist and all these kids from Vassar and it was just, you know, we'd get like a sitar player and, and have like an opium den. And I just 2 00:50:40Have a question I have to go back to, what was your character like? What was your, your nightclub character? Sure. 4 00:50:48So I always joke that I looked like, like huckleberry Finn, you know, I was working for J crew, but I was, I was just myself, you know, I, I would, I had my baseball cap and I had this baseball cap that said ack, which is actually the three letter code for new work airport. And I'm sorry for Nantucket airport. My initials are the Newark airport and people. And so ack people. And I would like, have my pants rolled up different, you know, I worked for J crew. So I was like a walking, like, you know, the J crew like twist that, how it used to be pants rolled up at different lengths and like maybe, or I'd wear like a crusher hat or something. 4 00:51:29And I'd get in line with these people who were like going to bang, bang, and buying their like, you know, tight leather pants and stuff. And it just became like this. I was, you know, I was kind of like a quirky, you know, I dressed, I danced a little funny. I, I attribute movement to music to that. You know, I sort of just followed these impulses that had me sort of stomping my feet a lot. And I danced with my face a lot and I would show up with like a big bunch of gerbera daisies and a couple inflatable sunshines. 4 00:52:08And, you know, I had one friend Franco, who's the only person that I ever went out with. I could always go out by myself and, you know, leave by myself. And I would just, you know, do these fun things. Like, you know, I wrote like a Valentine to the world and like, you know, we put on red paper and pass it out to everybody. Or we would, we'd bring junior mints to junior, was the DJ and pass them out to everybody. Yeah. And people, you know, I was talking about the hat. People would say like, like, what does ack stand for? What does ack stand for? And I got, you know, and that goes to the three letter code for Newark airport. 4 00:52:52And I got so sick of it. I started this thing, like the hairball remover that Cass asked for by name, you know, like, and I didn't really, I never, you know, I still sort of felt like I didn't belong there. You know, it was kind of like this secret thing, but you know, you cold places all the time. And then people start, you know, recognizing you and, you know, you start like getting in for free or, you know, and I found these places where it just seemed, I was appreciated, you know, people would, and I met a lot of such interesting people. I mean, everybody from people who were, you know, Sharman to, there was some pretty, you know, crazy shenanigans that went on, you know, at the time. 4 00:53:44And some people that, I mean, everyone from Tonya Harding and then it comes out and she was interesting to me, but that's like the funniest story I ever time, I let her Newport cigarette for her. Like I do the Catholics, I would see it. Evan am, you know? Okay. 2 00:54:01So I'm just, there's like a theme here, which is that you went to the theater school for two years, and then all of a sudden you had to leave while you might have otherwise been processing your grief about that. You had to go all of a sudden process with your mom because she lost her second husband. And then you moved to New York to get that life going. And then nine 11 happened and you were working at the world trade center. So you have had major Griffis interruptus. 4 00:54:36It's true. Yeah. I, I think, and, and, and I've recognized in my life that I have a hard time, like getting things done that are in my normal routine. Like say, like getting my car inspected, you know, it's like once a year and it's like, whoa, you know, so when things like that happen, it takes me a long time to regroup. And you know, I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and say that I'm, that it, you know, these things like ruined my life in any way, shape or form, you know, I I'm, I'm so lucky that I, you know, I've been in the circumstances that I've been in and that I have a great family and that, you know, I always had a bit of a safety net. 4 00:55:25Not like some people, like, I didn't really have a safety net. Like I felt like in New York, I couldn't do theater because I wasn't independently wealthy. And I, and there was just no place to, you know, you really, it just doesn't exist anymore. You know, if you notice people who go to New York and become directors and, you know, actors are either, you know, inherit that position. I have 2 00:55:52Another way of making money, even though even this Celia Keenan Bolger's of the world. I mean, it is, you cannot, you cannot make a living, even if you're on Broadway. 4 00:56:04Right. It's true. You know, and it's, and it just became, I just became disenchanted with it. You know, I was like, I mean, I still love the theater, you know? And I was, like I said, I was really lucky. I had, you guys were talking about those monologue books, know like Jocelyn Baird is the woman who edited all of those books, which I didn't know, but she was someone who I did theater with when I was like in high school, she's who she picked my audition monologues. And she, you know, I'm still in contact with her. She's a playwright. And she went to Yale. She coaches kids on how to get into programs now, stuff that I was like, what is my brand, that kind of thing. 4 00:56:54But it's like, I, commercial theater I guess, was exciting to me in a certain way, but it was, you know, it was other theater that I liked too. And I don't think it was just theater. I think it was just art, you know? And I think it was like art in life is what I've discovered. You know, like everything is art, you can make anything artistic. And I think that's kind of what I do. I just haven't shaped it in a way, like, I need to write a book. 2 00:57:28You haven't been able to shape it because you've had suspend a lot of time in reaction mode, you know, to various losses 4 00:57:35That, yeah, like the whole nine 11 thing. I, you know, I remember, I didn't tell anyone that for years, you know, it was just something that, I mean, my friends knew there was, there was an Edward Ryan who died that day, who was from Westchester and star. And so there were people like my old boss, Alyssa, who was a harpist and a composer who I worked for as a personal assistant. And, you know, she just heard like names bred off. She knew that's where I worked. You know, we didn't have very few people had cell phones. I ran into one of her three sons and he was like, we got to call my mother. 4 00:58:16I was like, she literally was, she was afraid to call my mom. She was like, that was the only contact number I had for you is your house phone. And I didn't want to upset her. And I was like, oh my God. I just thought I was Ted. I, I will, could been, you know, it was, yeah, it was, it was a rough, it was a rough day, you know, I've had better. And it was my first day back after like 10 days of vacation. And we opened, there was a mall in the building six where the big divot down to the path, trains wound up, you know, the, the second tower that fell. 4 00:58:58And luckily, you know, we were really lucky. We, I, we locked ourselves in at first. I mean, we didn't have any sort of clue what was going on, you know, when you were sort of in it, even it wasn't until we got to the Seaport that we realized that there was planes being flown into the building. You know, I was like, we heard the second plane and we crossed the street and we saw the second building on fire. But at that point we thought somebody was like dropping bombs or shooting missile. You know, we couldn't, you know, come up with the, the idea of someone flying planes into the building. And, and I was like, you know, what do I, what do we do? 4 00:59:41You know, I was like, we're dead. And I was all right with it actually, you know, it was a, it was a strange feeling, but I was like, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not going to spend my last moments here, screaming, yelling, running, like, you know, there's like this peacefulness about it. And I remember my nephew had been born, my sister's second son who lives here and I had never met him. And so that was the only like little thing I thought about as a regret. And then luckily we were okay, you know, and it was a long, you know, process of sort of also from my loft, I could see this, you know, smoke stack for the next, you know, three weeks. 4 01:00:29And I, even that day, I didn't really process anything until I got to a friend's house. And I, I, they were all there watching the news and I laid down behind them. They were like sitting in my futon and I like fell asleep. My adrenaline like finally ran out and then I woke up and I went home to my loft and the two girls that lived there, Lily and Rebecca were there and they just like grabbed me. And I don't think I stopped crying for like two days. Like I didn't leave the house. I didn't do anything. You know, I talked to my mother, but it was sort of like I was at work. 4 01:01:09So it was like, you know, and I was responsible for other people. And I, I felt like I also have to advocate for those people in the moment, you know, where they were like, oh, you know, well, you can come work at, you know, fifth avenue that day. And I was like, yeah, they're not going to work anywhere today. You know? And it was so I didn't tell anybody because people's reactions were so strong and I didn't want to like tell the story all the time, you know? And so I just didn't tell anybody for a long time. And I realized when I did that, it was actually helpful, you know, to talk about it and to talk about the, the impact of it. 4 01:01:54And I think that it, you know, made me a little more, maybe maybe careless or in a living, but also really living like really living, you know, in the moment, you know, and knowing what that meant, nothing like a little, you know, little flying a plane into your buildings to wake you up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was 2 01:02:22Yet the third or the fourth thing, which is that you graduated from school three years ago. I don't know if you were what you were planning to do when you left, but then the pandemic happened. 4 01:02:34Oh yeah. Not even three years ago. It was a year ago. Oh, that's when you were done was a year ago. Yeah, it was may. I went back to school in 2000, I guess it was 2019. I went for, so I got a bachelor's degree, but I went to Nepal for two years and I went there for a year and a half. So I somehow finished a four year degree in three and a half years, but yeah, I had enough credits. So I was like, bye. And yeah, I was stage managing for them a production. They were doing a little shop of horrors, which was really interesting stage managing and just sort of doing everything for them, for these kids. And I felt so terrible for them. 4 01:03:14And I mean, everything is still there. Like all the props we made, everything is just, I keep thinking of the Titanic it's frozen in time because they decided that even in spring, they were going to be fully remote because they didn't, they didn't think it was fair to leave it to the last minute to decide they wanted people to be able to kiss those sort of ducks in a row and, and know what to expect. Cause I think that was really one of the hardest things on any students or kids during the whole pandemic was like every, you know, the, from month to month, they didn't know what was coming next. You know? 2 01:03:49I mean, I kind of feel like that's how I had spent sort of the stopping and starting of Edward Ryan you've sort of stopped and started and stopped and started. And, and now you, you, you started school, you finished school and you were, and so the kids too, but also you stopping and starting. Yeah. 4 01:04:07Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that, you know, I have a little more, I have some more skills to deal with it. You know, I have a little more, it's like my work at school, you know, just cultivating creativity with this class that really affected me and sort of made me realize that I was more than just a theater artist probably. And do you remember those photographs in the like nineties of like different, like the Beastie boys are run DMC and they were on the rooftops of buildings. So this guy, John Nardell was that photographer. He worked for all these different it's, he's not the person you would expect to be taking photographs, but he was a teacher at the school and he taught this class and this class is so annoying. 4 01:04:55Like it's going to really drive me crazy. And all the kids were really like, he railed against like every assignment does a lot of work and we weren't allowed to buy anything. We had to make everything. And, you know, he gave us a lot of art supplies, but we had to like build vessels to like carry them in and incorporate every handout somehow creatively into this, into this book. And I mean, it was a lot of work and I would, I stay up till three o'clock in the morning, like, you know, making these things and doing the stuff. And he was like, you know, your work is like, incredible it's so it's, it's so much beyond, you know, what were some of the kids are doing here? 4 01:05:36And I was like, well, it shouldn't be, you know, like I have a little, few more resources than they have in their dorm and, you know, but, but the kids too, they were sometimes inspired in that to, you know, these kids to inspire them was like such a, a great thing because they were, so some of them were so disenchanted. And by the end of this class, you could just see that they had all found like what they were good at, like what sort of creative, artistic thing that they really connected with and that they loved and that they were just excelling in. And it was so exciting. Like it was really a, it was a great class. 4 01:06:18I 2 01:06:18Love that it was called cultivating creativity. 4 01:06:21Yeah. Good class. And I mean, you know, we either studied artists or, or, or techniques from Zen, Zen, Zen doodle, or 2 01:06:35Zen doodle. Yeah. There's 4 01:06:36Dan tangles. Yeah. Like he was a Venn tangle instructor. So, you know, we started with that. We did, like, we studied like in Stein and like, it is like sort of pop flags. And we each took a, a country. We were assigned to country and their flag and we, you know, created, you know, work from that. It was a really a great class, but hard, you know, these kids were not used to being asked to do to actually like work. I mean, the school itself knows who their students are. I think a lot of them have, you know, different accommodations and different, you know, struggles or opportunities. 4 01:07:18And, you know, they come from, like I said, an underserved communities and places, and it's like one of those places where, you know, if like Frank, the guy who ran the program was like, I couldn't let, just kidnapped graduate, you know, you know, like there's no way. And you know, whether it's paying his tuition bill or, you know, or raising money, whatever needs to happen. And, and, you know, he got me ready and Frank got me writing again. I directed, I took a directing class, which was a great read life, you know, so great books. 4 01:08:01And it was fun. You know, I really sort of was inspired to just be creative. And I looked at some MFA programs and I auditioned at Yale and I, I think I realized I did not get in, but I realized before that, that I, and Ruth was like, do you really want to go there? And I was like, you know, it's yeah. You know, and she's like, Hmm. And when I went there, I realized what she meant it, like, first of all, it's a shithole about bad facilities, you know, while you're waiting in an old computer lab with like broken computers, stacked in the corner, going this girl from West Virginia, she was a young girls high. And from what I was like, oh, this is what you thought. Yeah. You know, and I sort of felt like they had given the keys, you know, it was like the opposite of the theater school. 4 01:08:48It was like the kids were running that place. I mean, they held all the power and I think it's, it's sort of the way things are going these days, you know, with the me too movement teachers are one of the teachers at Yale said we are the only teachers that have to teach our students naked sometimes. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? We are the only teachers that have to teach their students naked. Sometimes 2 01:09:15The students are naked or the teachers are the students. What for, for zoom? I mean, on zoom, they're naked. 4 01:09:21No. I mean just different productions where, you know, they are directing a student who is nude and that's why there's intimacy coaches and all of that now, you know, to protect them. Because I mean, you can obviously see working in close proximity with a naked student that could open you up to problems, say like at the school, like what did Kat call it a spontaneous sex of study naps. I mean, there was a loud groping and touching going on that was like, you know, probably, you know, innocent, but you know, could certainly have been a trigger for some people. Sure. You know, like Trudy shoving her thumb in my mouth. 4 01:10:03Yeah. Not good. Not good. Yeah. So that was the day I had three, sorry, three absences. And I was, and I, myself use was damaged by habitual use was the other thing on my letter when I got cut from the theater school, self use was debt is damaged by habitual. You understand what that means? Well, neither did I. I mean, but as I think at that age, I just thought, well, I'm damaged. 2 01:10:31I also can tell you that Rick Murphy, when we were doing set, a very similar thing that David said to you, so I'm doing space work. Rick comes up to me, whispers in my ear. What are you doing? Drop out and go see the world. 4 01:10:48Yeah. 2 01:10:49And I'm like, I'm like doing work first year, second year. I don't remember. He whispered in my ear, why are you here? Go, go see the world or something. And I was like, what is happening? 4 01:11:02You know, I loved Rick Murphy. I mean, he was just like magic, right? I mean, this is not a pipe dream was like, so in captivity it was called freewill and one lust back then. And that was the other thing I wanted to tell you 2 01:11:20That it changed names. Oh no, no, no

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. We use Oh Dear to keep track of SSL certificates. If an SSL certificate is about to expire, we get an alert beforehand. We have automated processes to renew them, so we use Oh Dear as an extra level of peace of mind. You can sign up for a ten day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Michele Hansen  00:28Hey, welcome back to Software Social. So today we're doing something kind of fun. We're leaning on the social part of Software Social, and we have invited our friend, Sean Fioritto, to join us today.Sean Fioritto  00:44Hey guys. Thanks for having me.  Colleen Schnettler  00:47Hi Sean. Thanks for being here. Michele Hansen  00:48So, and the reason why we asked Sean, in addition to being a great person, is that Sean wrote a book called Sketching With CSS, and as you all know, I am writing a book and figuring it out. And there is a lot of stuff I haven't figured out, especially when it comes to, like, actually selling the book. Like, I feel like that, I feel like the, writing the book is, like, I feel like I kind of got a handle on that. The whole selling the book thing, like, not so much. Um, so we thought it would be kind of helpful to have Sean come on, since like, he's done this successfully. Colleen Schnettler  021:36So Sean, I would love to start with a little bit of your background with the book. What inspired you to write it? How did you get started? Where did that idea come from?  Sean Fioritto  01:50Yeah, so I wanted to quit my job.  Colleen Schnettler  01:53Don't we all? Michele Hansen  01:55Honest goal. Sean Fioritto  01:56I always wanted to go on my own, be independent, run my own business. That's been a goal for a very long time. So, I tried various things, you know, in my spare time, with limited to no success for years and years before that, and I was just getting sick of, the plan was, you know, I'm like, okay, I have this job. And in my spare time, I'm gonna get something going and then, and that just wasn't working. So I was getting impatient. Anyway, I ended up signing up with Amy Hoy's 30x500 class. This was seven or eight years ago. So, I signed up for that class. Actually, wait, I'm getting my timeline a little mixed up. So, I started reading stuff by Amy Hoy. It's funny, I'd actually bought another book that she wrote, and she used her sort of process for that book. And I bought that for my, for my job earlier. And I was like, oh, this Amy Hoy person is interesting. And so I started reading her blog, and then she has these things she writes called ebombs. You guys are probably familiar with that term. But they're basically content that, it's educational content directed at her target, you know, customer, which she would call her audience. So I was just, she, at that point, she had started 30x500. I think it was actually called a Year of Hustle at that point. And so she had all this content, and I was just devouring it, because I was like, she gets me. She knows my problem, and this is awesome. So I was just reading everything that she could write, that she wrote, and, you know, finding any resource that she'd ever written about, like, what's her process, because she was talking about this mysterious process that she has, she, she would talk about it. And I was able to sort of reverse engineer part of her course, the main thing called Sales Safari. So I'm not, I'm at my job, coasting, doing a half-assed job, spending a lot of time doing Sales Safari, trying to figure out what, what product I should do. Not product, but that's not the way to think about it with Sales Safari, but trying to figure out like, what, who, what audience should I focus on? And what problems do they have, and what's the juiciest problem that makes sense for me to tackle? And then, and she would call them pains, by the way, not, not problems. So what's the juiciest pain that they have, for me, that was like, be the easiest for me to peel off, and, and work on. So I started digging, and it was like, alright, well, what audience makes sense for me? This is kind of the process, and it was like, you know, like web designers, web developers, because I was a web developer. And so like, what are the, you know, audiences that are close to audiences that I'm in is kind of ideal. So I started there, and then I just read and read and read. I probably put like, 80 hours of research time into that process.  Colleen Schnettler  05:05Wow. Michele Hansen  05:06That's a lot. Sean Fioritto  05:06Of just reading and reading and reading and reading, and taking notes. And really understanding and whittling down and figuring out my audience, and figuring out, so the thinking, the benefit of that amount of time spent deliberately going through a process like that is that at some point, I became so in-tune with the audience that I could identify, and this is gonna pay off for you, Michele, this, this little story, because this feeds into like, how do you sell it. At some point, it meant that I could tell when a thing that I was, like a piece of content marketing that I was working on, was going to resonate very strongly with my audience and be worth the effort, if that makes sense. And it didn't really take much. Like, after I got done with that much amount of research, it was sort of, like, pretty trivial for me to come up with ideas for content that I could write that I knew people were gonna just eat up. And so that's, that's how I started building my, building my mailing list. And then that's how I eventually, Colleen, to your question, I came up with Sketching With CSS, which it was a solution to a pain point that I'd identified in my audience, which at that point was web designers. Colleen Schnettler  06:37How big did your mailing list grow? Sean Fioritto  06:39I have 20,000 people on my mail list. Colleen Schnettler  06:4120,000? Michele Hansen  06:42Holy guacamole.  Sean Fioritto  06:46Yeah. So like I said, I got really good. No, no, no. Michele Hansen  06:51I've got like, 200 people on my mailing list, or like, 220. And like, for context, that's like, 200 more people than I ever expected to have on the mailing list, and hearing, like, 20,000 feels very far from, from 200. Sean Fioritto  07:10Yeah, well, let me say something that will hopefully be more reassuring. The, Amy and Alex, for example, they've been running 30x500, for years, and I think their mailing list is just now approximating, like 20,000 or so. And like, the, they have been making so much money with that course with a significantly smaller mailing list. And that's a really, like, high value product, too. So anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I really think they only have like, a couple 1000 people on their mailing list for a long time. And then, for me, I launched pre-sales of my book, at that point, my, I think I only had, boy, I used to, I used to have this memorized. But like, it's been so long now. But I think I only had like, it was less than 2000 I think. I think. So, and even then, I don't think you need that. I know people that have launched with much smaller lists than that, and, and it was fine. Because the people that are on your list now guarantee it, your, will be very interested in, in buying the book. You know, that'd be like a low, low barrier to entry, assuming like, your mailing list is one of the ways that you're thinking of selling the book. Michele Hansen  08:26Yeah, I guess. That's not a good answer. But like, I, I, I actually, I admit, I'm a little bit like, wary to kind of hit it too hard. Like, I would probably send out like, like, if I did a pre-sale, which I guess I should. Actually, I had someone a couple days ago, who has been reading the drafts, who actually I think is also a 30x500 student in the past, say that they wanted to, like, pre-buy the book and asked me how to do it. And I was like, that's a great question. I will figure that out. And like, so maybe do that, and then maybe one more when, like, the book comes out? Um, yeah, cuz, so I've been thinking about the newsletter as a way to draft the book because I find writing an email to be a lot easier than, like, staring at a blank cursor just, you know, blinking at me. And I guess I haven't really, like, and like, people signed up for it to read the draft of the book, so I guess I almost feel bad like, using it for sales too much. Like you know, I want to let people know that the book exists, but like, I don't want to. I don't know, does that. Sean Fioritto  09:45So, it's very considerate of you to think about that. Michele Hansen  09:52Another way of saying that another, also a way to not make any money off of this. Sean Fioritto  09:57Well, yeah, that, but also, it's kind of inconsiderate of you to not be thinking about all the people that really, really, really want to buy it and also would like to read anything that you're writing right now. Like, you're just completely leaving them out there to dry. And there are definitely people like that on your mailing list. So, they're like, there's like, some people on your mailing list are not going to be interested in your content if you're sending it too much, or, or just in general, really lightly interested in what you're writing about, or mistakenly signed up for your mailing list, which at this point, you probably don't have that problem. So like, to some extent, that's always the case, and it used to bother me a lot. I would send an email, and sales emails especially would result in bigger unsubscribes after every email, because you know, your little email tool tells you like, can, you know, so nice of it to tell you like, this many people unsubscribed after you sent this email. And it's always a big jump after like, a sales email. That used to bother me a lot. But then I started, kind of watching even my own behavior, and you probably do the same, and you probably like, look forward to some emails from some people that hit your inbox from some newsletters that you're looking forward to, and you'd very much like them to send you more. And then there's other people where you're like, well, I signed up for that, like, a couple years ago, and I just am not thinking about that anymore. And I need, like, to like, whittle down my content. So you unsubscribe. So then you become that unsubscribe number on the other end of the person sending the email, but like, you weren't annoyed, you didn't mind. It was just like, time to move on. And that's usually the case. So I think people can just unsubscribe as long as it's easy. I would literally put it at the top of my emails. So like, because I would send emails very infrequently. I was not disciplined about that. And I still don't think that that's a problem. But the, but because I sent them infrequently I put at the top like, hey, you know, you signed up for this, because you probably read this thing I wrote. You weren't interested in the book, whatever, if this is not for you anymore, just unsubscribe, like, first thing. So that always made me feel better about sending emails. And also, I don't know, I think that's the right thing to do so people just know, like upfront, that you know, oh, okay, there's the easy to find unsubscribe button when they're done. And then that's fine. Michele Hansen  12:26We did that for Geocodio once, like, I want to say it was like a year or two ago, and our lists had been like, super disorganized. And like I think we had, we were sending stuff like, we send like one or two marketing emails a year from MailChimp. And then we also had Intercom, and those things didn't sync up. And so like, sometimes people would unsubscribe in intercom and then like, not be unsubscribed in MailChimp, or like vice versa. And then, since we didn't send a lot of email, we used MailChimp's pay as you go. And then they just like, shut down their page and go option a couple of years ago, even though we had a ton of credit, which was a little annoying. And, and then, so like, the next time, and I think we migrated over to Mailcoach. And so the next time we send out an email, we actually like for some reason, we were like, there's probably a lot of people on this who have meant to unsubscribe. And so at the very top of the next email, we put an unsubscribe link and we also put a link to delete their account. And like, a bunch of people did it, but then our number of people who were unsubscribing later on like, went like, way down. So it was like, ripping off the band aid basically. Sean Fioritto  13:36Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think like, I don't know, when people unsubscribe from Geocodio, at this point, it doesn't like, break your heart anymore, I'm guessing. Right?  Michele Hansen  13:45No, I mean, we're like, we're kind of like jumping into something that has been very much on my mind, but I hadn't been wanting to admit that it was there and just trying to like, pretend that it's not there, which is all the dealing with rejection around either, you know, people being mad that they were being sold to or negative reviews. And I like, you know, it sounds like you kind of have a process for, like, accepting those feelings.  Sean Fioritto  14:19It used to bother me a lot.  Michele Hansen  14:22Like, yeah. Sean Fioritto  14:24Yeah, it used to bother me a lot. There are two things that I hated. I hated frontpage Hacker News, and I hated getting angry emails.  Michele Hansen  14:33Oh.  Sean Fioritto  14:35I also got creepy, tons of creepy emails. Once you get, like, past a certain threshold and the number of subscribers you have, the creepiness factor increases. Yeah. Yeah. But the, but I got used to all of that. I just realized, like, there's just some percentage of people that are just angry right now or whatever, like, whatever they're going through. And I know that, like, I am very carefully crafting things such that the most, most of my content is not self-serving, most of it is directly a result of research that tells me that this is a problem that people are having, and now I'm helping you. So I'm like, I never feel bad about those, and then even the sales emails, I started to not feel bad about those, too, because I'm like, this is also a thing that's helping you. But that took a while to get to. I mean, honestly, it did. And it got worse when it became my only source of income, which added extra, extra feelings. But yeah, there's a lot of feelings to like, get through. And now I have just developed more of a thick skin, you know. Like, I'm not terrified of having a super popular article anymore, or, you know, stuff like that. That doesn't, that doesn't bother me anymore. I think it just came with time, just like with you and Geocodio. I mean, I'm sure you are used to like, some fluctuations of revenue, which probably bothered you a lot at the beginning, but now, not so much. I mean, I'm just, I'm guessing, but that seems, you know, I'm sure there's some things they're that you've got a thick skin about now. Michele Hansen  16:12Oh, my gosh. I mean, for years, every time a plan downgrade came through, like every time it was like a punch in the gut. Like, and yeah, I think now that I, I guess I trust the revenue more, I'm not as impacted by it. It's more like, oh, I wonder, like, why that was. Like, did their project end, or like, you know, like, what happened? But yeah, in the beginning, especially when it was first our like, when it, when it became my, like, full time income. I mean, as, as you said, like, that is really painful. Like, I'm curious, like, so you,  so like, when did you start writing the book? Sean Fioritto  1705Let me think, like, like the year, or a timing, like, in terms of the timeline?  Michele Hansen  17:12Whichever one you want to go with.  Sean Fioritto  17:15Yeah, I can't remember the year cuz it was a while ago. It was like, eight years ago.  Michele Hansen  17:19Oh, wow. Okay. So you started, Sean Fioritto  17:22I think it was 2013 is when I started. Yeah. Michele Hansen  17:24You did the, sounds like you did 30x500 first, right? Sean Fioritto  17:30Yeah, I had the, I had started writing the book before 30x500. But like I said, I was ,I was following her process already at sort of reverse engineered it. And then I felt like I just owed her the money for the, for the course. So, plus I wanted to meet her, so. Michele Hansen  17:44Yeah, so you started like, the research process basically, like, like 30x500 like, was only one part of your, like, research. Like, cuz you said you had sort of, you had figured out what her process was based on the blog posts and whatnot before you took the course. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  18:00Yeah.  Michele Hansen  18:01Okay. Sean Fioritto  18:02Yeah, and at that point, I had already generated the research I needed to see, to choose Sketching With CSS as a, as a product. I pretty much had, I think I had a landing page. I hadn't done pre-sales yet, but I was, I was gearing up for that. Michele Hansen  18:17You are so organized. Colleen Schnettler  18:19Michele, do you have a landing page?  Michele Hansen  18:22There is a website.  Colleen Schnettler  18:24Okay, I didn't know. Michele Hansen  18:26I haven't told anyone about it because I talk about,  Colleen Schnettler  18:29Your secret website. Michele Hansen  18:30I actually have two. I thought of the domain name, or like, the name for it in the shower, and then I like, immediately like, ran for the computer to see if it was available. And I actually bought two, and then I think we put, like, a book, oh my god, I just typed it wrong. Colleen Schnettler  18:55This is the part where you tell us what it is.  Michele Hansen  18:57There's nothing on it, and actually, if I say it now then we have to have something on it by, Colleen Schnettler  19:01Well, there's no way to pressurize a situation than to tell us right now. Michele Hansen  19:06So okay, it is DeployEmpathy.com. Okay, okay, crap, now I have it out. I don't even know how I'm going to sell it. Okay. So um, and I think I have another one, too. But yeah, we have like, a very basic like, WordPress template on it. Like, it's not, it's not, okay. While I was trying to figure it, so like, people keep asking me like, oh, like, when's your book coming out? And I'm like, I have no idea. I have never done this before. I don't know what steps are ahead of me. So, okay, so you started writing the book while you were doing research concurrently, and then how, and you were also, Sean Fioritto  19:48Oh, sorry, there's two types of research.  Michele Hansen  19:50Okay. Sean Fioritto  19:51So, we could clarify that. There was my audience research and understanding the pain that I was solving, and then there's the research about the book. I didn't have to do as much research about the book. I mean, I already, like, the type of book I ended up writing, I already had, you know, the expertise I needed to write that book. So yeah, I was, audience research was already done by the time I was writing Sketching With CSS. So I wasn't doing research like that while writing the book. Michele Hansen  20:16Okay. And then you also had the landing page up, and you started building your list while you were doing this research and writing phase. Okay, so how long did it take you from, like, the time that you had the idea for the book to when people could, like, buy and download the book, like, just like, the big picture? Like, how long did that process take you? Sean Fioritto  20:45Well, I mean, keep in mind, that ton of the work was while I was still full time working, in theory. Michele Hansen  20:56I mean, I guess I am, too, right? Like, this is not my full time thing. Sean Fioritto  21:00Yeah, but I think like, from, from, from research to launch, like, book is done, it was like, in the four to six month range. Michele Hansen  21:14Okay. Okay. So I think I started at like, the end of February with the newsletter, and it's May, so that's like, yeah. I do feel like I'm doing a little bit of, I think what we have termed Colleen does, of putzing in the code garden, rather than selling things or doing marketing or whatnot. And I am totally doing that with my manuscript, I guess you could call it. Sounds so fancy. And just like, moving commas around and like, totally procrastinating on making images for it, like totally, totally procrastinating on that. Okay, so it took you like, four to six months to get to that point.  Sean Fioritto  21:59Yeah, there was a, there was a launch in between there. Michele Hansen  22:02So when was the like, so was your pre-sale your launch? Or like, how does that work?  Sean Fioritto  22:08You could do lots of launches.  Michele Hansen  22:11This is like, the part that is like, just sort of like, you know, in my head, it's like step one, write book, like, step two of question, question question, and step three, profit. Like that's sort of where I am right now. Sean Fioritto  22:24I feel like you're already doing most of the things that I would do. The, the one thing, so alright. So you're, you're working in public, so you're getting interest via Twitter. You're writing to your mailing list. You're doing the right thing, which is writing content for your book that, you know, is also useful to your mailing list, like, independently. Like, like getting double bang for your buck is smart when you're doing this kind of business. So you're keeping your list warm enough. People are, you're building anticipation, people are telling you you're building anticipation, because they're like, hey, when do I get to buy this book? So, you know, you're basically doing all the things. As, you know, from from my perspective, looking in, it seems like you're just accidentally or intuitively doing the right, doing the right stuff. The thing that's missing between like, what you are doing and what I did is probably, I would press pause on book writing and do specific content marketing things just to build my mailing list. Michele Hansen  23:37But I love putzing in the code garden.  Sean Fioritto  23:39And I'm not, I'm not, sorry, I didn't mean to say that as like, you should do that. That's what I would, as in like, I was doing that. And I don't know, Michele Hansen  23:48And you wrote, like, a successful book and sold it, and it was your full time job for a period of time. So you're kind of here because you're good at this and because I need to be told these things. Sean Fioritto  23:59Right. Well, I'm just saying what I did. But it's, it's really ultimately you get to pick and choose what you do. The, you know, I actually happen to very much enjoy the process of coming up with content that I knew would be popular and writing it and sharing it everywhere and doing all that stuff. And also, I knew I needed to because I was going to try and make this my full time living, so I'm like, I need more people on my mailing list. So that was pretty important to me based on the goals I was trying to achieve. The, the other thing is though, like, even with a small mailing list, your book as the, a lot of book sales are gonna come from word of mouth. Like, I sort of forced the book onto the scene. But like, it's not a, the Sketching With CSS is not like a, while the marketing theme is, like, the marketing message at the time, it doesn't connect anymore because  the world has moved on from that phase of web development. But like, while people could read the marketing, the landing page and connect really strongly, and, you know, be interested in the book, the book didn't really lend itself well to word of mouth, because it's not like, it was not like a, oh, you should read this, like, it's this lightweight, like reading recommendation. It's got to be, you've got to be like, ready to commit to learning a bunch of code. So it's like, there's like, a smaller group of people at any given time that are like, at that point, does that make sense? Versus your book, it's, it seems like, it's like a higher level of value, like, it's a more abstract, then like, here are the, learn this code. Here's how to type in Git commands, here's how to do that. You know, like, I was really like, down at the, like, here's what you're gonna be doing day to day in your job. And you're giving them the same message, but like, in a way that can be, that is at like, a higher level, it's maybe easier to read, you know, in your spare time. It's like a business book, has the same qualities of, like, successful business books. So, I think that you may not have to do any of the content marketing stuff that I was doing is what I'm getting at, because, like, I can already tell, I'm ready to read your book, and I'm ready to recommend it to people, because it does it solve, like, a question that people have all the time, and a problem people have, and they're like, oh, I wish I knew how to, you know, talk to my customers more effectively, or understand, you know, the types of customers that are gonna be interested my products, or what problems they're having, etc, etc, right? Customer research, that kind of thing. That is a topic of conversation that comes up a lot in my communities that I hang out in, and so, you know, your book’s gonna be like, at-hand for me to recommend. That's, that's what I suspect. That's my, that's my theory for your book. Michele Hansen  27:00Yeah, I guess, I mean, there's parts of it, definitely.  Sean Fioritto  27:02It's also got a catchy name.  Michele Hansen  27:04Hey, I thought of it in the shower, and then I ran to register the domain, which is exactly what you are supposed to do when you have a good idea for something right? Like, this is the process. Colleen Schnettler  27:13Definitely. Michele Hansen  27:13Like,  Sean Fioritto  27:14You already had a book though, so it's different. You're like, I'm gonna write this book called Deploying Empathy. And you already, like, wrote it. So I think you're good to go. Michele Hansen  27:20Yeah, actually I didn't have a name for a while. Okay, so, so something else I have, like, a question on, which you kind of just sort of touched on with that about, like, super practical elements. So some, some of it is you can, you can definitely sit down and, and you could probably read it in a sitting or two. But then there's, there's the stuff that's more like a toolbox with all of the different scripts, which, by the way earlier, when you were saying like finding the type of content that people are really hungry for like, that, like, those scripts are the thing that people are the most excited about. The problem is, there's only like, so many sort of general scenarios. So I've basically written the main ones, but, so something I noticed with your site, which is SketchingWithCSS.com, just for everybody's reference, so you have the book plus code, which is like, your basic option for $39. And then you have one with the video package for 99. And then you have another one with more stuff for 249. And then there's one with like, all the things for your team for 499. And so, something that people have asked me for is like, like, there's the book piece, and then there's also, people want to be able to easily replicate the scripts so that they can then like, use them to build their own scripts off of it, and like, modify them and whatnot. So people have said, like, well, that could be like a Notion Template, like, bundle that it's sold with, or Google Docs or, or whatever. And so I've been like, kind of like, how do you sell the book with this like, other bundle? And like, can you also do that, like if you sell like a physical book to like, if I did it through Amazon, like, could I also sell a Notion Template bundle or something? Like, I just, I'm kind of, that sort of like, something that's on my mind is like, I'm not really sure how to approach that. And I'm wondering if you could kind of like, talk through your approach to creating like, different tiers, and what you provided at those different tears.  Sean Fioritto  29:33Mm hmm. Right. So, at the time, I know, I have a more sophisticated thought process about it now, but the, when I did the initial set of tiers, it was because Nathan Barry told me that I should have three tears because it tripled his revenue. So I was like, oh, okay.  Michele Hansen  29:53I mean, that's a good reason.  Sean Fioritto  29:55Like, we just happened to be at the bacon biz. That was the other person that I was, I bought his book. So here's the thing I always do, I would buy people's books that way I could email them. Michele Hansen  30:08Is that a thing? Like, if you buy someone's book, like, do you have a license to email them? Sean Fioritto  30:13Well, you get one. You get one email. And as long as it's, you know, not creepy. That's, that's the main thing. But yeah. So we had a bake in this conference in real life, and then, yeah, that's what he, that's what, he told me that I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I think Patrick McKenzie was there, too, and he said something similar. So I was like, oh, because they did a landing page tear down for me at that conference. That's right.  Michele Hansen  30:36Wow. Nice. Sean Fioritto  30:37Yeah. So anyway, so I did the, I did that, because somebody told me to. And in fact, it's true. Like, if I hadn't done that, you could just see like, the way the purchases ended up that like, that absolutely almost tripled my revenue. So,  Michele Hansen  30:53Oh, wow. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  30:54Which is a big deal for books, because it's not like, yeah, anyway. The, the, the way, the way you were talking about it, though, because there's another way to think about it. I was thinking about in tiers with the book, but another way to think about it is in terms of a product funnel. So your, your book could be super cheap, and it is the entry point into your product, your little product universe. Because like, you're, what you're doing is naturally, because you're literally writing a book about this, listening to your customers and understanding that they have other like, you're really understanding what their, their pain is, and you see that there's different ways that you could solve it for them, right? Those things as a product. So you could bundle that stuff into your book, you could create tiers, like I did. And maybe it does make sense, we talk about this more, but like there's, there's, there's different ways to do tiers with books that, that makes sense, that aren't exactly what I did. But also, like what you're describing is basically different courses. So let's, so, like, people that run these info product businesses, like, what you end up with is like, you've got this world of courses, and you've got this world of content. And people come in from like, search, you know, or whatever channel that you've worked on, usually it's like an SEO channel, like through your content. And then they enter your automated marketing system. And then the first thing they do is buy probably your cheapest thing, your book, and then you're moving them on to the next level into your email marketing system to get them to start looking at, you know, your course, which is like a more in-depth version of the book, or whatever. So anyway, I'm just sort of sketching out, like how, how these content marketing businesses tend to work. So you kind of end up in their little universe and then you just get bounced around all their various email automation. If you've been in anybody's like, any internet famous person's little, like, email world, you'd probably notice eventually, if you're there for long enough, like, I already got that email. And so anyway, so let's there's like a different way of looking at it. You don't have to do tiers. You could just sell your book, you know, digital version, here's the hardback version, you make it cheap, and then, you know, lots of people, lots of people read it. And then you, turns out that this is still really interesting to you, you still like solving people's problems and you're like, you know what, like, I should release like, some recordings of customer interviews as like, examples or whatever, you know, and then you peel that off into a different product and you sell that, and slowly you build up this machine, basically. Also the guy to talk to would be Keith Perhac, who's in our group, too. Michele Hansen  33:51Oh, yeah, I should totally talk to Keith.  Colleen Schnettler  33:53Did he write a book? Sean Fioritto  33:55Yeah, he did but also his, his job before running SegMetrics was with the internet famous person that you guys know of that ran these huge content marketing programs and had this whole product funnel thing and all this stuff that I was talking about. So Keith is like, expert on that topic. Michele Hansen  34:15I guess I don't know if I want to go that direction just now because I do, you know, I do have a job. Um, so I'm, yeah.  Sean Fioritto  34:28You could just be like Amy.  Michele Hansen  34:33So, I, yeah, so I guess I have to think about that, and thinking about like, like, where to price it and those bundles and whatnot. Actually, I have another super like, mechanical question. So, between the time you announced the pre-order, and when you, like, people could actually like, to like, first of all, like, what was the incentive for somebody to pre-order? And then, what was the time from like, when you announced the pre-order to when you like, people could actually get it? Like, how far in advance do you do a pre-order? And what do you like, do you have to give people something? Sean Fioritto  35:10Yeah, I can't, I actually can't remember. I can't remember, what did I do? I did a pre-order. I can't even remember if I gave him the book or not. I don't think you have to. Some people just buy it ready to go. I think I, I probably did give ‘em like, here's everything I got so far, and it's gonna change, but, you know, here's that. Here's what I've got. And, you know, whatever version, like, people don't care if it's like, not even formatted or, you know, give me everything you got. Because the people that are going to do that are ready to just devour it. And then also, some of them might be like, I'm not wanting to, I don't want it right now, but I had a discount, right? So there's like, the pre-order, it's like a little bit cheaper to buy it now. Because I knew I was going to be selling it at like, as, like, a $40 product. So the discount, I think I sold it initially for pre-orders for like, 29 bucks, or maybe less even. Yeah, maybe like 20 bucks or something like that. Michele Hansen  36:08Okay, and it's 30 now. Colleen Schnettler  36:11Yeah, it probably makes sense for you, as someone who, I'm using it and referencing it, even though it's not done, because those scripts, like you were saying, are so valuable to people.  Michele Hansen  36:20Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess I sort of like, feel like everybody already has everything. I mean, reality like, they, they don't because everything has been changed so much. But I guess I need to like, set it up, too. Like, I need to decide on a platform to use to actually sell it.  Sean Fioritto  36:42Oh, I didn't do that at first.  Michele Hansen  36:45Okay. So did you just use Stripe? Sean Fioritto  36:47I think I used PayPal. I was literally like, here's my email, send PayPal money there. And then I sent it to ‘em. Michele Hansen  36:55How did you deal with that and sales tax and stuff?  Sean Fioritto  36:57I don't think that existed. But also I would have just ignored it. Michele Hansen  37:03Okay, yeah, I guess I'm in the EU, so I kind of can't. Sean Fioritto  37:08It's the wild west out here. Michele Hansen  37:12'Murica. Sean Fioritto  37:15No, I had a really bad tax bill the first year because I ignored all of that stuff.  Michele Hansen  37:19Oh, okay, so you're not advising. This is not financial advice.  Sean Fioritto  37:26I'm just saying what I did. I'm not saying you should do that.  Michele Hansen  37:30This may or may not be good advice, what you are hearing, just so you know. All of this may be bad advice. Okay, so I basically, Sean Fioritto  37:39I got audited, too, actually. I forgot about that. So don't, yeah, definitely don't do that. Being audited is not as bad as it sounds, it turns out but that's, anyway, that's a different story. Michele Hansen  38:55I was, I feel like I should do a, like a talk hear, hear, and be like, well, on that massive disappointment, thank you and good evening. Um, so okay. So you know, I feel, see, I feel like I look at you and you're like, you, like, have your stuff together about selling a book. And the fact that you had all like, you had these fears about, like, getting rejected by it, and like, put all this into it, and you did it without having done it before. And, you know, made mistakes, looking back, that you are now helping me not replicate. Um, I feel, I feel a little, I feel a little better about this. And also, I guess I have a deadline now, which is five days from now to have the website functional. So, that's fun.  Colleen Schnettler  38:51You're welcome. I'm here for you, Michele. Just push you over the cliff. Michele Hansen  38:56Like, copy paste content into it, right? Um, I noticed actually that Sean, like, your site has a ton of testimonials, and that's something I have been sort of tepidly starting to collect. Like, I guess I'm a little bit afraid to, like, ask people for testimonials. But I've gotten a couple. Sean Fioritto  39:17So what you do is you write them the testimonial, then you email them and you say can I use this as your testimonial? And then they say yes, and then you put it on your page. Michele Hansen  39:25That's lower friction than what I've been asking for. Um, but, but that makes sense. Sean Fioritto  39:32I mean, I would also peel out, so they said something good in an email and I'd copy it and then change it so it sounded better, and then, can I use this as a testimonial?  Michele Hansen  39:39Yeah. Yeah.  Sean Fioritto  39:42I mean, when I say sounds better, I mean, just like copy edit, right? Michele Hansen  39:45I mean, I guess, like, we do that with Geocodio. And I think, like, Colleen and I have talked about this how, I guess I've like, gotten over all of these fears with Geocodio, and I'm so much more confident with it. And maybe it's because it doesn't have my name, like, directly on it, or it's just been around for like seven and a half years now. Versus this, I'm like, I'm so much more unsure. Like,  Sean Fioritto  40:07You haven't done this in a long time.  Michele Hansen  40:08I never have written a book. Sean Fioritto  40:12Well, whatever. Like, you haven't done a launch. Because you can launch anything. You could have launched Geocodio. Michele Hansen  40:18Yeah. Sean Fioritto  40:18You could've launched it this way, too. But you just haven't done that before. And it's weird, launch is weird because launch is like, everybody, pay attention to me now.  Michele Hansen  40:29Yeah, I'm just super uncomfortable with that.  Sean Fioritto  40:33Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's what it feels like. But then when I realized it was, if you're doing it, right, it's not that. It feels like it, but you're not actually making it about you. It's about them. And then for like, a couple days, you know, you gotta be like, here's the product, you can buy it, and you got to be like sending more emails than you normally. Lots of people will unsubscribe. But like I said, those people are not subscribing. Some of them probably hate you, but you know, most of them are probably just unsubscribing because like, they're, turns out, they weren't interested now that they actually see what it is. They're like, oh, no, that's not what I was thinking it was, or whatever. You get used to it, like, you definitely get used to it. I did it for a couple products. And over time, I just didn't care anymore. Like, I absolutely felt like I was doing a good for people. And I know that I was because I didn't get nearly as much. I think that some of my friends who were in that space would tell me that I needed to go harder, you know, like a little more salesy than I was. But anyway, the point is, Michele Hansen  41:39The thing is, like, I'm not like, I'm not averse to marketing, I think, I mean, this is something that like, we were actually talking about the other day, like people, like technical people being averse to like, sales and marketing and like, like, I have written the book with this in mind that like, hopefully, like, people will recommend it, like, like an audience of the book is like product leaders and marketing leaders who need to teach their teams how to do this. And so like, that's an audience I'm writing for because if they then they have like, buy the book for like five people, and then if they get a new job, or promotion, or whatever, in two years, and they need to teach the team like their new team how to do it again. Um, and so like, that is like, comfortable for me. But yeah, I guess as you were saying, like, hitting the sales hard is, is a little bit uncomfortable. And I guess I will just have to deal with a couple of days of like, that being awkward and like, doing the whole, like, you know, I don't know, like home shopping network style, like, and here's this book, and you can have it for the low, low price of $29. Plus, all of these bundles. Like, Sean Fioritto  42:43So, the thing that, okay, maybe this will help you, but they would help, it helped me, is I just focus on, on the, on the people that are, on your audience, and like your copy and everything is about them. It's about you. You're using, I know you're doing this, right, so you're gonna use the word you in your copy. Like, you never use the word I in your copy, right? So everything is about them. You've done all this research, you know, them, you know, you know, the problems they're facing, you know the pains they're having. And so you could just keep talking about that, talking about that. Launch, then, is then just like, more of those types of emails, like, a higher cadence than you're used to, which is still just about them. And then you're hitting them with like, okay, and now it's here. Like, you're, the whole time you're telling them it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then now it's here, here's what's in it, and you're gonna have these emails that just say, here's everything that's in it, and then here's questions that people might have, email that follows up, and then hey, this is gonna end in like a certain amount of time, follow up and then you got one hour left, you know, email. So you do these, you do this sequence of emails, but like, you have to remember when you're sending those that are the most uncomfortable that some people are really, really excited, and if you don't send them that stuff, they won't buy it and they'll, they'll regret it. Like, there's some people that genuinely are very excited and super thrilled to get those emails. Michele Hansen  44:03Can I run a, I have like, a tagline, or not like, a headline I have been throwing around in my head. Can I run it past you?  Sean Fioritto  44:12Yeah. For an article?  Michele Hansen  44:13No, for the book, but like, so like, this would be the like, main headline on the site. Sean Fioritto  44:18Yeah, yeah.  Michele Hansen  44:21Your time is too valuable to spend it building things people don't want.  Sean Fioritto  44:27Perfect. I mean, it's a little wordy, but yeah, like, the concept is perfect. Michele Hansen  44:32I will work on the wordiness. Sean Fioritto  44:36I mean, it's really, it's good, though. That's perfect.  Michele Hansen  44:38It's good. I guess it's good enough, right? It's good enough for me to slap a site together in the next, checks watch, five days, and, and get that going. Sean Fioritto  44:50Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, you could roll with that as an H2 on a landing page. Easy. Yeah. That would be fine the way it is. Michele Hansen  44:57Cool. Second image of the book. All right. There's all this stuff I'll have to do, but I guess I'll just be working away at this. Sean Fioritto  45:04You know what would be fun for you? I have an archived version of like, my old initial website, if you go to, oh, it doesn't work anymore. Michele Hansen  45:15Can I look it up on Internet Archive? Or it's like, Sean Fioritto  45:19Probably you can, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. I used to have it just up so that I could, you could go to the URL. But yeah, so you'd have to go through the Internet Archive. But I had, and I did a, I did a write up on the landing page tear down and discussed screenshots from the, from the old version. It was truly, truly awful. But I sold $7,000 worth of book through it. So, Michele Hansen  45:40Can I ask you how much you sold overall? Do you reveal that? Sean Fioritto  45:44Yeah, yeah, of course. So it's actually hard to know because the, well, because as I've revealed I'm not fantastic about keeping track of my finances, or I wasn't then, but the, the book, through its lifespan, has made about $150,000.  Michele Hansen  46:06Whoa.  Sean Fioritto  46:07And most of that was the first two years because I was really, really actively pushing it. And then it just sort of, like, continued to make sales in dribs and drabs, and now it makes, probably, I don't know, I think I sold $1,000 worth of it last year, which makes sense, because it's pretty out of date at this point. Michele Hansen  46:28That'd be interesting to know why people are still buying it. Sean Fioritto  46:32Well, because the concept of designing in a browser is still something that people, you know, talk about from time to time. Should designers write code, or should they be using Figma, or at the time, you know, Sketch or Photoshop, I think all my copy is about Photoshop. So, you know, so like, I think that that concept is still valid. My copy is a little dated, the, the tech inside the book is a little, little dated at this point, though, still useful. So yeah, I think that is just the, so that was one of the things that I learned for content marketing was the, so if you want something to be really like, a really big hit, and to sort of like, make the rounds on the internet, you know, just those articles, it's sometimes just like, everybody's reading. The key to those is there has to be, well, there's like three rules. But like, one of the rules is, it has to be something everybody's talking about right now. And so at the time, everyone was talking about should we design in the browser? That was a big point of conversation. I would say now, like a similar level of conversation would be people talking about how much they hate single page apps, like in the Ruby on Rails community and trying to like, get off of that, right. So like, if you wrote a book about building single page app equivalents in Hotwire or something like that, that would probably resonate really, really well with that community right now. And you'd get a lot of free buzz when it's, people are already talking about it. So that's the problem. I think that that's why, like, hardly anybody's buying it now. But still, people are talking about that. So you get like, a little bit. And then also, I have all these marketing automated things that are still running. So like, I have some content that I accidentally wrote that has a lot of Google traffic, right? Like, I didn't accidentally write it, but I accidentally, like, did some search engine optimization on it. And so I get quite a bit of traffic from those pages, and then they end up signing up for, like, my tutorial things. And then they're in my little email automation thing that I set up, and eventually they get a pitch and then they, and then they buy. So there's some trickle down of that. Michele Hansen  48:50That makes sense. So, I guess, and this will be my last question. Um, is there anything else I should know about selling a book? Sean Fioritto  49:02Yeah, you don't have to do any of the things that I said, like. Like, well I think, I think you're already like doing all the right things. I was pushing really hard to make it my business. And so that, and frankly, once it got to the point where it was my business, that was a distraction for me. It made it hard, harder for me to stay relaxed and focused on doing the things that were the best for my customers, like, once money became this, like concern. So to me, you have this advantage of like, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. Like, each one of the things that I did, like it feels like you should bone up a little bit on how to do a launch, though that's not too difficult. You don't have to do like, the greatest job ever, and you maybe even already know how to do that to some extent. But other than that, I don't know, like 200 people on the mailing list, probably enough already. And you'll get more as people are more and more interested. And, you know, do you have an email subscribe on any of your content at all that you've written? Michele Hansen  50:16So it's all in review, so I think it all has a subscribe link at the bottom.  Sean Fioritto  50:22Perfect. Michele Hansen  50:23I think I have one on Twitter, like, on my pinned tweet is a subscription to the newsletter. Sean Fioritto  50:30Yeah, yeah. Cuz like, by the time I was doing it full time, I mean, the number of, I was doing so many other things that we didn't even talk about, for marketing, which it's like, we don't, we don't even need to go there. Because you don't, you don't need to do any of that stuff. I think you're doing everything right. And I would think carefully about, like, what your goals are with the book, and, for both you, you and for your customers, and then kind of size it right size it accordingly. And don't feel guilty about not doing all the right marketing things, because the right marketing things, just as long as you're focused on your audience and the people that are going to be reading your book, you're doing the right thing. Michele Hansen  51:13Hmm. Well, thank you for that, like, boost of encouragement.  Sean Fioritto  51:19You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  51:21I guess to wrap up, we should mention, by the way, that you have your own show. And you're actually getting something off the ground right now. Do you want to talk about that for a second? Sean Fioritto  51:34Yeah. So my friend Aaron Francis and I, we have a company called Hammerstone, that's at Hammerstone.dev. Our podcast is, is linked to there on the home page. We have, like you guys, it's kind of like a ride along podcast, and we just do our weekly check in we record it as a, as a podcast. And what we're working on is a drop in component for Laravel. The component allows you, allows your users to build, dynamically build queries, which they can, you could then use to display reports, etc. to them. Yeah, so that's, that's our new thing that we're working on. That's a new thing for me. I should probably have a whole other podcast and invite you on, ask you about how I should be marketing my software business. Michele Hansen  52:30So by the way, so, the podcast is really good. We finished it on a road trip a couple of months ago, and you should totally start at the beginning because, like so, so yes, like, the software part is interesting. But there's this whole other element that Aaron's wife is pregnant with multiples. And the podcast started in like, December, right?  Sean Fioritto  52:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  52:53So, and she was due in April. And so there's this like, whole, like, tension of it of like, oh, my god, like, are they gonna get to launch stuff before, like, Aaron goes from being not a parent to the parent of multiple children overnight? Like, is it like, is it gonna happen? And I found myself as I was listening, I was like, oh, my god, like, like, it really added this element of suspense that I have not felt while listening to another podcast, and it made it very enjoyable. Sean Fioritto  53:24You know what's frustrating. I just realized your audience actually overlaps with the audience of my product. And I just did a horrible job of pitching it. I was like, I could just sort of half-ass explain it here. But, Michele Hansen  53:34All you Laravel people, like, just check it out.  Sean Fioritto  53:37Yeah, that's good.  Michele Hansen  53:40Just take my word for it. This has been really fun, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on.  Sean Fioritto  53:50You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  53:51I really appreciate all of your advice. And I, I don't know what you call the, the anti-advice. You know, don't ignore taxes. And encouragement and perspective, that really means a lot to me.  Sean Fioritto  54:08You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.  Michele Hansen  54:11This is awesome. So if you guys liked this episode, please leave us a review on iTunes. Or let us know that you listened on Twitter, and we'll talk to you next week.

John 3:2236 (ESV) John the Baptist Exalts Christ 22After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24(for John had not yet been put in prison). 25Now a discussion arose between some of Johns disciples and a Jew over purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witnesslook, he is baptizing, and all are going to him. 27John answered, A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. 29The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegrooms voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

https://www.instagram.com/wearecurated/?hl=en 0:41 Vinny ran events at duPont Registry 1:56 buy a used car from Jeff Sterns, you get amazing resale! :) 2:25 Jeff: Well, my divorce was a little less amicable little, but quoting the great Tosh.0, "my ex took half my money. So I had to marry a girl half her age!" I 6:16 Vinny's dad was a was a mechanic for General Motors brands 7:44 Vinny's 1ft car: 79 Oldsmobile omega 0:10:15 Vinny meets Tom duPont and Steve Chapman at Amelia Island Concour and a career path change... 0:11:58 Vinny got to know his next team from Spyker. 12:55 Vinny compliments Victor Muller, CEO of Spyker and talks about the car and it's background and history. 12:56 on the open linkage in the Spyker 17:13 Vinny meets the Lamborghini people 19:30 Vinny talks about how he made calls as a warranty administrator on what to cover (warranty in effect or not). 21:33 should you "upgrade" or customize your car? ...SEMA 26:22 V 12. world, it could easily be a $100,000 repair. Jeff 26:25 these trade ins I used to get, that would have the 10 to 20 to 30 to 40 grand worth of upgrades. And, of course, the customer, God bless their soul would be proud of that, and expect more for their car because they've really improved it. And we don't have to reduce its value to put it back to original. 31:28 ("upgrades") Not only are you probably not going to get a dime back. Yeah. But you might even reduce the value.... it doesn't mean that you don't have good taste. 31:28You know, my personal 65 Cadillac coupe is completely different than what I'm surrounded by at work, you know, we're, you know, every day, but it's but to me that, if I want to feel that way, behind the wheel, there is no other vehicle that I can find that's going to make me feel that way. . 38:11 Jeff's Dad -would restore model A's. Oh, wow. And the guy Model A George had in his garage, the mohair interior stuff and could paint and how to start it with the spark advance on the steering wheel and all of that business. And my dad would retail these cars restored for $1295. He felt guilty because he was making $400 a car guy and he could barely look anyone in the eye. Because he was making $100-200 a car on a $599 traded in Chevelle. 41:00 Vinny goes to Maserati 43:21 Vinny left Maserati due to health issues and last year went to Hennessey and then to WE ARE CURATED. 43:50 Vinny saw 212 MPH as a passenger... 44:24 Vinny: "you hear 200 miles an hour, you know, and it's funny being car guys, you know, what we watch the police chases on TV, and they're like, they reach speeds up to 100 miles an hour. It's like I did that on my way to work." 44:50 200 miles an hour is a football field every second. 48:33 "The $10k Viper. Road track did an article on it" 52:57 Vinny: We Are Curated. We specialize in vintage supercars 54:05 Gemballa Avalanch 930 Turbo p 54:40 we sold these cars, there wasn't anywhere to get them serviced. 55:30 yellow Mura here in the shop right now that the the gentleman flew to us from Mexico. 56:09 FOR AUDIO- here is a piece that you might want to switch to YouTube for. 57:04 blue 74 Ferrari Daytona - only one ever made in that color. 550 Barchetta....it actually doesn't even have a top, you drive it completely open top. This one is a is a manual and it's actually serial number 01 out of the series of 448 they ever made. 57:52 Diablo VT 6.0 carbon body....Merci coupe. But it's manual transmission, very low miles...purple Diablo, it's a very unique color. ...Ferrari F40 which is the the pinnacle in the early 90s Ferrari supercar....White Countach... Mersi logo that's directly below me here is the only one ever painted in this color. It's a non metallic orange, also manual transmission. '59 Mercedes 300 Sl. 1:00 "how far up can a restoration run?" millions of dollars 1:01:33 I was working on a lotus a 180... It was one of the last Lotus Elise is a factory racecar and the fuel pump went out...shared the same fuel pump components as a Chevy Blazer. 1:04:08 I manage the service restoration department so I handled the whole the whole back of house 1:05:45 Bugatti Eb 110. Countach. Jaguar XJ 220s, they held the top speed for a short while of 217 miles an hour. 1:09:12 it's a labor of love, and I was lucky enough to find a path that led me to be able to be around this stuff without having to just come out of pocket for everything.

THE WEEK OF EPIPHANY III - TUESDAYLESSON: GALATIANS 2:11-16We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Romans 3:28You see how the example of the leper (Matthew 8:1-4) supports faith against works. For, just as Christ helped this leper out of pure grace through faith without any works or merits on his part, so He helps all men. He also wants men to regard Him as such a helper, and to expect help from Him on this basis.Had the leper come to Christ with all sorts of claims declaring, “See here, Lord, I have prayed and fasted so and so much. Please take note of all this, and make me clean accordingly,” Christ would never have cleansed him had he been so minded. Such a person does not rely on God's grace, but on his own merits. In such a case, God's grace is not praised, loved or desired, but personal works claim all the honor, and God is robbed of His due honor. As Isaiah declares, “They bow down to the work of their hands, to what their own fingers have made,” Isaiah 2:8, that is, they put their confidence in their own works, and confer on their own works the honor belonging to God's grace alone.SL.XI.480,5AE 76,252PRAYER: Lord, preserve us from that presumption which urges us to trust in our own works to the rejection of the grace, help and salvation which you are always ready and willing to bestow on us freely in and through Jesus Christ our Savior. Amen.

Here at RAR, we can't think of a better way to kick off a new year than to do it with books. That's why we kick off every January with a challenge for your kids-- to help them start their new year reading and reading and reading some more... and falling a little more in love with books in the process! Today we're sharing all the details of this year's Read-Aloud Challenge. I'll answer your questions, let you know how it works, which books "count," (spoiler alert: you're the boss!), and what to do if your kids get frustrated along the way. We're starting this challenge in January, but you can start it at any time! If you want your kids to read aloud for 25 days and fall more in love with books (and each other) in the process, you're in the right place. Ready to join us? In this episode, you'll hear: how the challenge will help your family kick off a great reading year and reset your rhythmsetting your kiddos up for challenge success (even pre-readers!)answers to your questions about the challenge including what counts and who counts! I also answer a listener question about whether new families will be lost or "behind" if they start a RAR Premium membership now. Hint: Nope!

THE SECOND WEEK IN ADVENT - MONDAYLESSON: 2 PETER 3:1-11When these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Luke 21:28You might feel inclined to say in this context, “Who could possibly raise his head in the face of such wrath and judgement? Will not the whole world rather lower its head in terror and look downwards in fear and dismay? How are we in such a situation to look up and raise our heads?” The latter without a doubt signifies joy and eager longing.The answer to this is: All this is spoken to Christians alone – to real Christians, not to the heathen or the Jews. Real Christians are involved in great temptations and persecutions from sins and all kinds of evil, so that this life often becomes distasteful and quite ugly for them. And so they wait with eager longing and pray to be delivered from sins and all evil, as is also said in the Lord's Prayer: “Thy kingdom come,” and “deliver us from evil.”If we are real Christians, we will also pray this earnestly from the depths of our heart. If we do not pray this earnestly from our hearts, we are not yet real Christians.SL.XI.61,37AE 75,92PRAYER: O Lord, you have so often promised in your Word to deliver us from all the trials and tribulations which we experience in a world of sin and sadness. Receive us into your heavenly kingdom, for your truth's sake. Amen.

Be sure to catch the Conscious Spirit Fest October 18 2020 Arizona Bell is the co-founder and CEO of Spirit Guides Media—a growing media network that's dedicated to truth and driven by Spirit—and the host of the podcast A Matter of Life and Death with Arizona Bell. A grief coach and afterlife expert, Arizona is an inspirational speaker with the message that examining death and what happens to us after death is the absolute best way to live our richest, most meaningful lives here on Earth. A rising voice in the spiritual community, she appeared as a panelist on George Noory’s afterlife expert panel at the Afterlife Research and Education Institute Symposium in 2018 and speaks regularly at various conferences and events. Arizona’s book “Soul Magic: Ancient Wisdom for Modern Mystics” is available now. Arizona stopped by on Spiritual Dope as we covered all types of things: What exactly is it about examing death that can inspire you to live your best life? How do you transition from writing for medical journals to spirituality? Different ways to pray & what exactly is OG meditation? Make sure you check out everything Arizona has going on! Catch up with Arizona on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDblWL1H2IZ/ https://www.instagram.com/p/B-rjRW5oCOi/ brandon handley00:014321 Hey there, Spiritual Dope. This is Brandon Handley on with another outstanding guest Arizona bell, and she is the co founder and CEO of Spirit Guides Media 00:15A growing media network that's dedicated to truth and driven by spirit and the host of the podcast, a matter of life and death with Arizona bell 00:23A grief coach and afterlife expert Arizona is an inspirational speaker with the message that examine that. And what happened was, after death is the absolute best way to live our richest, most meaningful lives here on her. 00:35Arising voice in a spiritual community, she appeared as a panelist on great George Norris afterlife expert panel at the afterlife. Research Institute education Institute's symposium in 2018 00:47And speaks regularly at various conferences and events Arizona's book sold magic ancient wisdom from the modern mystics is available now or is. Oh, thank you so much for popping out today, how are you Spirit Guides00:59Hey, thanks for having me. Brandon, I'm doing really well, actually, uh, you know, you never know in 2020 with ups and downs of of everything. But today I'm doing great. I'm feeling good. How about you. brandon handley01:09I love it. Right, like 2020 if ever there was a a year where you seize the day right you take it for all that you can get out of it because you don't know what's around the corner right Spirit Guides01:20And absolutely, if you're not. If not now, when right brandon handley01:26I love 2024 for what is actually kind of brought brought to us right arm. I think there's opportunity to 01:32Do what you and I are doing on really kind of dig deep and live our authentic lives because you don't know what's around the corner. Really presented itself in 2020 that's my honest opinion. Spirit Guides01:43Absolutely. And just, I'll just riff here for a minute, in my personal life. That's how it worked out. 01:48You know i i hit rock bottom and hit a period of grief in my life. And next thing you know, I'm like, Okay. Life's too short. And it really put the fire under my butt. And I got to step in and live in my purpose. And I think on a collective level that's what's happening with 2020 brandon handley02:03Is what it looks like right a lot. There's a lot of raw files on 02:06A lot bombs and and not to laugh, but it's again just giving us the opportunity to bounce back. And so our spiritual resilience and what that but that kind of shine. 02:15But they kind of shy so I like to start these off with, like, you know, the idea is that the creator speaks through us right and 02:25Universe energies, energy, whatever speaking through us today and it's delivering a message to one of our listeners that can only come through this instance right so what is that message that you would deliver to that person today. Spirit Guides02:40This is man, this is interesting because right before this, I got on. And I do this typically 02:45Every once in a while. I forget, but it's kind of my routine to get to 02:48Get into meditated mode. Before I go on, either my podcast or somebody else's and say, 02:54Let's let the message come through that needs to be heard the most that helps the most amount of people 02:59You know, it's interesting. I've never been asked to to pick what that message is. So you put me on the spot, but um you know i i think that maybe the messages. What you kind of 03:12You said spiritual resilience. I think that that's the message of this year. And that's the message, maybe of this podcast, because that's where we started going right away. And I think just 03:24The fact of the idea that human hearts are so resilient were built in Phoenix's were born to burn and we're born to rise. And I think that it's really 03:33Really important to remember that right now, when everything is burning down metaphorically or literally, you know. So I think it's really important that we remember how resilient. We actually are. brandon handley03:46Built in Phoenix is built on Phoenix's and Spirit Guides03:49I don't know where that came from. That was 03:52That was like our archangel brandon handley03:54Was it right that's it 100% you open yourself up to it and just allowed to kind of kind of come through. 04:02And that's exactly what it is. So, whoever's out there. Just know that you have this built in Phoenix, whatever is kind of sparking you right now. You can kind of fan that and rise up out of the ashes into something more boys than you ever were before. Right. 04:18Totally. Um, so let's let them give some background, right, who is Arizona bell 04:26Yeah, are you 04:27Doing here. Um, you know, give us the lowdown Spirit Guides04:30That's literally what I've been asking myself all year. Who am I, why am I here. No, you know, I 04:37I would have said, you know, for most of my life. Arizona bell is a writer, like, that was my identity that's that's who I showed up as and then a little, little bit over five years ago, about five and a half years ago. 04:50My mother passed away. She was my best friend. 04:53She was 59 when she passed away. I was 30 so that's pretty young, relatively speaking for both of us. And we were very, very close in it. It ripped my world apart. And that was my burned down moment and 05:05And eventually became my Phoenix moment, and it gave me, like I said, the fire under my butt to really step into my full 05:14Purpose and alignment, whereas before I was just sort of dabbling, you know, I was like dabbling one foot into my spiritual purpose and the other into really messing around, and not really committing to anything and 05:27You know, just that kind of stuff. And so, you know, after my mom passed. I did the grieving thing for her, you know, I'm still doing the grieving thing, but I did that pretty hardcore. And then I woke up one day and I said okay like 05:39I'm going to do this, I'm going to do what Spirit wants me to do. So I basically surrendered to that to spirit to source to God to divine energy, whatever you want to call it. I said, All right, listen. 05:52I get that I'm here for a reason. Show me what that reason is. Bring it to me every day and I'll do it. So you know I stepped into service mode. Basically, which I wasn't able to do before I hit rock bottom. And with that. 06:05Came the starting of my company, which originally. Like I said, my background. 06:09Background was in writing. So I started a little digital magazine called spirit guides magazine, because I 06:15I was young, relatively young in the spiritual world and I saw that there was a huge void of spirituality being targeted to younger generations and therefore there's a huge disconnect because 06:26People my age millennials and younger weren't really connecting with 06:31The kinds of websites and graphics and conferences and kind of that that were sort of felt a little bit outdated, but we were hungering for spiritual knowledge so that was kind of the reason I started it. 06:42And that little Instagram magazine has now evolved to a media company we're called spirit guides media and within it. We have podcasts. We're starting a radio station books. 06:54Everything courses and thrown a festival with my good friend from conscious living PR Mona. So we just got everything going on. So that's kind of a hope I answered the question. I don't, I don't know how to fully say who I am or why I'm here. But that's a star, I guess. brandon handley07:09Sure how that that it's a lot for us to work with. Right. So, that is how you and I connected we connected through Mona, Lauren, who was one of the first guest on this podcast. 07:20And you know so super glad that we were able to get connected through her 07:25Checked out spirit. Guys, you've got a lot going on there. Looks like it's kind of a community right of built up around spirituality and. Is that what the intention is just kind of a community for, like, you know, will say for a younger generation. Is that what you're saying. Spirit Guides07:43You know, absolutely. The intention was to build a spiritual community. And even though we are gearing towards gearing it more towards 07:52Visually towards younger people. I mean, spirituality is for everybody. So I have people across the board, you know, but we did. We did kind of dominate that you know 08:0318 to 34 demographic. I mean, that's, that is what our demographic is. And of course there's outliers and the young at heart, and all that. But we did want to make it fresh and hip, you know, and that that was an intention and definitely 08:17The spiritual community aspect of because for me. My personal story is, I was the lone wolf on the spiritual path. I didn't have, you know, I wasn't raised religious I didn't have a spiritual community, as in the spiritual closet, to be frank, so 08:30I did this year I did the spirituality thing by myself. And so I really did want to create a community. 08:37For those that might be feeling the same way. And luckily, with the world that we're living in with technology. It's easier to do that, you know, like we're doing this on zoom right now and and so I'm able to hold courses and 08:49workshops and the festival, even now online and as membership community, so it's it's all able to be done online and it's it's absolutely to have a spiritual community in such a weird time brandon handley09:03And there's no no better time for us so funny you mentioned your demographics, because you're pulling off is right where I started on my demographics. Right. 09:12Right on. And that's and that's simply because I speak to my generation, right. So you're speaking to your generation, you know the language you know on the spiritual connection. 09:21From that perspective. Right. And that's not to say, like you said, there's gonna be there's gonna be people. There's going to be the outliers that you attract but like you're able really well able to speak to that specific group. Spirit Guides09:33Right but but it ends there because I don't do Tick tock. So I don't know. 09:37I don't know how much younger. I can get that brandon handley09:40Tick tock. Tick tock. Some is Spirit Guides09:43For sure. brandon handley09:44Somebody platforms right I'm and I'm doing I'm doing what I do. 09:49Exactly. 09:50So, so I get it, I get it. 09:53When you know I want to give also this kind of premise of what you were into before you got into the spiritual realm, who and what type of content. Were you writing before you got in the conscious 10:08Conscious right Spirit Guides10:09Sure. You know, I think, well, I was doing a couple things. There was what I was doing for work. I was very fortunate to get paid to be a writer. I know a lot of people in the writing world. 10:21seek that out. And what that I was writing for what pays. I was writing for medical journals and medical magazines and medical medical medical I was writing for universities, things like that. 10:34But the big bucks were in the medical field. I was the editorial director at a magazine for physicians and an assistant assistant editor at a magazine an international magazine for doctors and dentists so 10:49And, you know, with my mom passing away, she had cancer. So I was all up in the medical industry going through it with her and I just found myself writing things that I didn't agree with. And so, it hit me. 11:01For a while, I mean, I don't want to get to the specifics, but 11:06Yeah, just 11:09Just the sick, I would call the sickness industry of the of the medical industry and just a lot of things that there were ignoring about actually keeping people healthy and I had to start to believe that maybe there was a an ulterior motive to keep people sick. 11:26So I and I was publishing stuff like that, you know, and that's all up for a matter of opinion, but from what I saw firsthand. 11:35In the medical world with my mom and the unfairness. I will call it of that world I it wasn't jiving for me on a soul level to be writing those things anymore. So there was a there was a pick on my soul that was like, ding, ding, ding, like, hey, you can't 11:49This doesn't feel right and you care about integrity. Don't forget that you care about integrity. Now, on, on the flip side, in my own personal selves. I was always drawn towards I guess soul centered content. 12:03I called it love I called it like I was thinking more romantic love than spiritual, but I, I was always wanting to write about love and like 12:11That kind of stuff. And like relationships and things like that, but um I so I was doing that on the side as well. I was writing for literary magazines and things like that. brandon handley12:21That's fun. That's fun. But I'll tell you what I can. I know what you're talking about with that little prick in the soul resonates with me real hard. I was in the insurance industry. 12:32For a little bit. Right. And I was like, well, you know, you would you do demographics and you would do. 12:40Do a risk assessment on the group as a whole. Right. And there's a sick person or two in there. 12:45You're rich got jacked up with this doesn't make much sense you know these people need the insurance. We're going to raise the rates on them because they need it because they are sick because they are going to use it. 12:53Or industry codes right same thing happens with industry codes. If they're in of, you know, riskier business type 13:00Their insurance rates are going to go up because they've got the they're going to get the most well this person's gone in here. So we're gonna have to race, the race to cover that. So, um, I left, I left. 13:10For very same thing. I was like, for a couple reasons. Actually, one was because of that soul prick right to was because and nothing wrong with people getting off on work every day you know into an office, but I couldn't stand it. I was in my 20s and watching people that were zombies. 13:27Right. What are these these these a tweet covered offices, you know, walk right. I was like, I was like, if this is gonna be my toys. Spirit Guides13:35Yep. Oh, I completely relate to that. Yeah. I mean, look at me, I'm like, 13:40There's no way I can sit in an office. I mean, 13:42I gave it my go you know I gave it my best go but somehow every job i got i ended up 13:48And again, I told you this before. My mom was German. So I was raised with good work ethic. I know how to work hard and so I'd like work hard, prove myself, and then I'd be like, Listen, I gotta start working from home like this isn't working for me. 13:59You know, and somehow I always talk them into it. I guess that's a skill I have but 14:04But yeah, I wasn't meant for that either. I totally hear what you're saying and you know that that unfairness. As I said in that you as you just so eloquently described in the insurance industry. It goes, it goes in every, you know, it's like in the banking industry like brandon handley14:17Somebody who Spirit Guides14:17More like living paycheck to paycheck has to pay the fee to like have a bank account and then you know somebody who has loads of money doesn't have to pay a fee doesn't make sense that brandon handley14:28You know, you know it does. In the end, right, like, but you know we're not going to get into it. Right. 14:34But it's like, Come on, man. Um, so, so you're writing for like medical journals and all this other stuff. You have this kind of bent 14:45You go through this and they jump into the spirituality, his face. I want to want to share with kind of 14:51Peoples. And what was it like for you to begin to lead with spirituality. After what you've been doing your entire life and the Jeff overcoming fears deal with anybody was like, What are you thinking that type of thing. Spirit Guides15:05Oh, big time. Yeah. As far as overcoming fears. So I'll just say a couple things I had the idea for spirit guides 15:14In my head tagline AND EVERYTHING FOR YEARS. YEARS. YEARS. YEARS BEFORE. My mom passed away years I knew I wanted to do it and not even that I wanted to. It was like it was just implanted in my mind my spirits like you're gonna you're going to need to do this. 15:28And I started to get worried when the because i'm a i'm an idea person. So I get lots of ideas. I was starting to get worried when the idea didn't go away because 15:35It doesn't go away. Dang, it's meant for you, you know, brandon handley15:38So, Spirit Guides15:39But I was too scared I was making pretty good money to be creative, you know, who am I to do this. And also, like I mentioned, I'm in the spiritual closet. Okay, I'm a party girl. 15:50On one on one hand, and then I'm a spiritual girl when I go home like it. I did not have spiritual friends. You know what I'm saying. 15:58So there's a lot of fears to overcome. But again, when I got that asked my ass kicked by grief and loss and seeing death firsthand. It was like, all right, you got to live your life and you got to do this. So I basically like 16:13I just kind of like came out of the closet and like didn't like I didn't even make a thing of it like I just was like one day I owned a spiritual media company. 16:22And, you know, some people were like, what are you getting up to these days, you know, but it was it was a leap that I took private privately and probably shocked. Some people when I did it, but I didn't want to go around having to explain myself to a bunch of people so brandon handley16:37That makes a lot of sense. Um, and you're a lot of different types of coaching business Christians question spiritual around to like you know don't have to go share your ideas with others. I'm just go do it right again. Good. 16:51And that was Spirit Guides16:51That was what I chose to do in that moment, because it honestly it made the most sense. brandon handley16:56Of it and then so 16:59You start, you know, I don't know how somebody just goes to earning a 17:04media company, right. So what was that process like did you have to get investors or she is fired off like 17:10On to the Instagram bit or did you find some people to back you, that type of thing. Spirit Guides17:15Now it was completely driven by spirit. And again, I was in surrender mode by that point. So I was like, 17:22I had an arrangement with spirit is like if you want me to do it. You got to bring it to me because I'm not going to go around. 17:28Chasing after all this stuff. So I'm very fortunate that my brother and business partner is a tech developer. So I had that 17:37And I basically called up one of my friends who was a another co founder who became another co founder with us, who I knew was into spirituality and could handle you know some of the things like social media all this stuff. And we just got together as a trio and and literally it was 17:54You know, like guerrilla style startup and 17:58And now the third party left, and it's just me and my brother and we're still we're still running it in that way. And I like that way. I mean, I wish I could sit here and tell you that I had some 18:08Big plan, you know, I, my German mom would have wanted me to have a better laid out plan. But I went with it. You know, I just, we just started on Instagram and started hyping it up because that's where all the kids were and we were trying to, you know, 18:24That's where the kids Billy says where they used to hang out with. So that's where we were talking to, at that time, and 18:30We started to get a following. And then we just launched and and honestly all all I had in mind was to launch a digital magazine. 18:39And because I was a writer. That's all I wanted. You know, and I eventually wanted to write books and stuff. But from that is like all this stuff because I made that arrangement with spirit. 18:48Now I'm like podcast Aston radio station and festival. All these things were like, not my ideas are now they've overrun the thing. So now it's like it's got a mind of its own. brandon handley19:00Reminds me of the Michael singer. Yeah, sort of experiment right um 19:07So talk about what is surrender. Spirit Guides19:11What is surrender mode. Well, I think there's two kinds of surrender mode. There's a surrender mode where we think we're surrendering 19:19Where we say we're surrendering which was me a lot. I mean, I was 19:23I've always been drawn towards spiritual and esoteric stuff so I knew I was writing before my mom that I was writing you know happiness is surrender. That's where you find happiness, but I wasn't doing it. 19:34I wasn't doing it fully. And I only realized that when I did it fully in that was when I had to when I had to fall to my knees. 19:43Because there was nothing else there and, you know, Marianne Williamson, I'm probably going to butcher the, quote, but she says something along the lines of 19:51There's a certain desperation that's required before you're ready to face God and something like that. And that's how I felt. And so to me, that is surrender mode where it's 20:02I am here to serve. 20:05Your like basically I'm using my free will to serve your will spirit. 20:12So it's 20:13To me, that's true. Surrender mode, not just like, Oh, it's okay. Let it go. That bad thing, you know, but actually surrendering to a will, that's greater than your own that's greater than your own ego as well and showing up for it every day reliably brandon handley20:29How do you show up for every day, right, like so. I get it. I love this. I love that. I love the idea of 20:36You know surrender. And it's really kind of how we started the podcast right now less fear talk through you to the listener. Right. And then that Phoenix between now and then there's a. It's kind of like the let go and let God right 20:50Right. brandon handley20:51But to actually, you know, to say it's one thing Spirit Guides20:54How to do it. brandon handley20:55How to do it without freaking out, man. Right, without freaking out because Spirit Guides21:00I never said I didn't freak out. brandon handley21:03I love it. So, um, Spirit Guides21:04But I will say this, I will say this. I mean I I wake up every morning and I meditate and I pray, basically I do that combo and and part of my prayer in my meditation is to say 21:19You know, use me how you want to use me today. 21:22And so that's a way for me that's like a action point for me every morning to state my intention which matters a lot that I'm here to be used for spirits will basically. And so whatever shows up for me that day. 21:38I'm going to do it. brandon handley21:40Yeah assessments. Nice. Right. Um, and then the other part two is 21:50Just the idea that these things keep opening up for you. And I mentioned kind of the surrender experiment from 21:56Michael singer. And the reason I mention it because once you kind of open yourself up to it to be used to be used in service through this universal power. 22:05And I love how you said you know I'm not going for it. It's going to have to come to me right 22:11You said you know what you want. This is what I want. But you know what, I surrender for you to show me the way type of thing, you know, talk a little bit about that because I think that that's 22:21That's very important. Right. I'm a big fan of the idea is like its first of all, most people won't like you said, you know what you want it right you know what you want to do you want to be a writer. 22:31You wanted to start this media company and dig into it, but you didn't know how, but now you got it. Is it fair to say Spirit Guides22:39Yeah, definitely. brandon handley22:40And so this is the point that I'm trying to drive home is that you don't have to know how, but you do have to make the decision that that's what you want a life and that's what I feel like you've done Spirit Guides22:51Right. But I agree with you. You don't have to know how I am living proof of that. You do have to know what what I will say is that asked 23:00For what, when I sit in prayer and meditation every day. I mean, I feel like that's a crucial point 23:07Because we're 23:09I had to. I had to. I didn't know that I always wanted to be a writer because I have that God given skill. 23:16You know, so that's a, that's a natural way for me to go but 23:22I didn't know. I didn't even know what necessarily either. I had to listen in meditation, like I didn't know that I was going to start a media company. 23:30Or a you know that I was gonna, I didn't even know was going to do a podcast. I didn't know the podcast was going to turn into a an internet radio station. I've got those downloads and meditation and prayer. You know what I'm saying. 23:42So, but, and I will, I will circle back to the one thing that I did know is I knew I wanted to be a writer, and I knew that starting this digital magazine basically 23:53would grant, grant me a following. And I knew that in the publishing world today because I had been told this by writers by published writers that you have to have a following to even get looked at basically 24:04Well, and the magic numbers like 10,000, you know. So what we hit 10,000 and then it just kept expanding and expanding and expanding and I was so damn busy. Next thing you know, we're at 50,000 followers and I'm saying to spirit, listen. 24:20I still haven't written the book actually haven't even written 24:23So I'm not going to go around chasing a book deal if you want me to write a book you bring it to me. Now that sounds absurd. 24:29But three months later I had an email in my inbox, saying, hey, we have this book. It's already sold to this major publisher and we think you're great to write it, do you, what do you think brandon handley24:40So they have the concept of the book. 24:42Yeah works on a writer and they needed a writer. 24:45And you read it. Yeah. Spirit Guides24:47And that's the thing these days, they already sell the concept of books, but you know now that sets me up to write the book that I want to write to write the books that I really want to write, you know what I'm saying. So 24:56It's a pause for a second, though, because you know brandon handley25:00There's also the again. 25:04There's, there's the idea of, you know, feeling a little bit of a law of attraction space, making the demand was fear, right, or like the idea of you asking it is given and just let it come to you. 25:17Right right hand to me right if I'm coming from a law of attraction space. I'm like, Hey, I'm here, how to end up here. You're living example of this right and or of 25:28Trusting the universe is another right as like your benefactor, you're like hey universe. This is what I like. You can just go ahead and have that show up. I'm not going to go chasing it 25:40But then it shows up, and you're like, Well, what's next. Spirit Guides25:43Right. And that, that means that means it's for you because you you can go out there and say hey universe. This is what I want. 25:52I'm not going to chase it bring it to me and you're not, you might not get it. 25:57Because it's not meant for you. brandon handley25:58And that's great too. Right. Like I make the lines of, you know, if I would have had a lot of money. When I was younger, or like an open like have liked it. Like, I felt like I wanted, I probably would have died. 26:11Like, I mean, right, it would have been a bad. So the universe is like no 26:16No, no bad idea, right, you're not ready for that. Sorry. 26:20Yeah, and or we don't want you right now, right, you've got more things to do. And that's, that's another thing that I kind of look at this as like if you made it this far in your life and like you're 26:28Still kind of wandering around. I like you know for the for the person that is 26:33So meaningful life, you know, perhaps there is and you know you guys start figuring that out because there's no reason for you still be here. 26:40One 400 what a trillion to be born and make it through like not get hit by a car or a bus eaten all that crazy crappy thing that G and just in some of whatever we know what you're doing out there. Right. But you've lived 26:52And and and and so you've got a purpose and to live it. So one of the purposes that you found is by going through, you know, kind of hitting this rock bottom right, I want to just 27:03dive off dependency the grief coach and afterlife expert aspect of it because we haven't yet. Um, let's talk about how you ends up even there. Spirit Guides27:12Sure. I mean, it's kind of a wild story, um, 27:17Because I, I didn't want to end up there that wasn't I joke. I never thought in my life. I want to be a grief and afterlife expert. 27:26Can can promise you that. But, you know, after my mom passed away. And after I did the really hardcore grieving for for a while. 27:36I just, I think, you know, I had already started spirit guides and I was like, you know, 27:41Like, I want to go train to be a grief coach and it just kind of came to me and I was like, all right, I'll start looking into programs and I did and I found one. And I went and I liked it and i and i just got trained. You know, I just did it, but 27:55But, and I wasn't even 27:57I didn't even know what I was going to do with it. I just felt intuitively intuitively nudge there. So I did it. And then shortly very shortly after I had a medium ship reading 28:09And the medium. Then in the middle, in the middle of it. She's like, and she's a very, very, I had to wait a year to get a meeting with her. She's a very, very popular medium and 28:23In the middle of that she's like, What are you doing, I need to 28:27And she's like, I'm so I'm not gonna take up your time of your reading. But after this. I need to talk to you what you're doing. Like my spirit guides are telling me I need to talk to you. 28:34So we end up having a chat and she's like, Oh, I told her about spirit guides, like I've been trying to reach younger people, and she's like you and then a week later I got an email from her. And she said, I want to invite you to be to speak at this afterlife conference. 28:49And I was like, 28:51I'm not 28:54Know that, like, I'm not qualified to be here and she wrote back, I'll never forget it. And she's like, Arizona, my dear, I have been told that you are going to be a very profound afterlife researcher and you need to be at this event. And I was like, what 29:07So I went to this event to and I sat on a panel talking about spirituality, like in younger generations and my mind blew way open because I didn't know much about the afterlife, other than 29:21My mom had died. I hope she was still alive and I went to a medium to find out, you know, 29:26So I guess the, the, that's the long answer. The short answer is, like, Spirit just drove me there and And ever since that first conference, it was just so obvious that that's what I was going to be doing that I had a place in that world for whatever reason. brandon handley29:43So along with being a CEO media company you're also doing like this grief coach. Is that right, Spirit Guides29:51Yeah, you know, and you know, I hadn't dove into the coaching part as much as I wanted to. Originally, just because I have been so busy now with 30:03And and people grieving everything because grief, you know, grief, there's a misconception. That's grief, just for 30:11a loved one who's passed away grief is for any change dramatic change in your world, which we are collectively experiencing like all of the changes right now, so I am 30:24Drawing more back into that coaching aspect and I'm starting to get some things lined up in that way because I think it's so important and and I've been basically advised by all of my spiritual advisors that that's something that I need to get going on right now too, so brandon handley30:40I love it. Right. So just a little bit about what it means right to 30:45Examine death and use this kind of as a catalyst to live our riches, the most meaningful lives. Spirit Guides30:53Sure. So what people don't know is that there's so much afterlife research out there. 30:59It's not mainstream so we don't hear about it or you know it's not it's doesn't get MAJOR FUNDING so we don't hear about it, but there's so much independent afterlife research outfit out there and there's so much documentation that to me proves that consciousness exists beyond 31:18beyond physical death right i totally spaced out your question, though. I'm gonna go go off on a tangent 31:24Oh, Spirit Guides31:27I get into my afterlife brain. And I'm like, Okay. brandon handley31:30So before I let you go into the next piece of what would it so somebody wants to go buy some information for themselves in the afterlife research. Where's the first place that you would direct them. Spirit Guides31:43So there's an. There's an organization called the afterlife. Research and Education Institute AR e AI and they are great starting off point. 31:53I feel bad because I didn't fully answer your last question, but my mind. brandon handley31:56Told me Spirit Guides31:58But, uh, anyway. So that's a great place to start off at 32:02And they, you know, they are doing research, their funding researchers, all kinds of stuff and and they're just signing up on their newsletter. There's also 32:11There's a newsletter that is run by a couple in Australia. That's really famous. It's called the Friday afterlife report and every Friday, they send out a newsletter of all this afterlife research that's either 32:23From the past or that's come up in the past week there's tons of it out there. So those are the two places I would start the afterlife report. It's with Victor and Wendy's dammit, and then AR e AI afterlife. Research and Education Institute or brandon handley32:38So the question we had was, um, how's examining death. And what happened was the absolute best way to move on. Spirit Guides32:48So, yes, yes, yes, yes. See, now that's a very important question. That's why I was having a hard time letting it go. Um, it's so important because of all the research that's out there, which is what I was getting into. 33:02It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, from what I've seen. And what I've learned and what I've experienced and what I've researched that 33:10our physical bodies dies die, but our souls. Do not that we continue to live in the afterlife. Okay, so with that being said, the information that our loved ones that spirit guides 33:23That Spirit Guides33:25That arc angels, all of these beings and entities that are in on the other side, the information that can be channeled through them is so vital. 33:37To how we live our best lives. So it's, it's an interesting paradox because we don't tend to think about death or the afterlife until we're faced with it because we're so busy thinking about life and 33:47How we can live our best lives, but from what I've learned is that we can learn a lot about living our best lives from that wisdom that comes through the other side. 34:00And it's a shame that people I feel it's a shame that people my age don't get to do that very often because I'm the youngest one at these events. Okay, like 34:09I still don't know many people that have lost their primary you know parent or something like that, that in my age group, and my peer group so they feel like they are 34:19getting robbed of that wisdom because they're not going to go looking into the death or the afterlife. So I do kind of feel like 34:26It's my job to sort of bridge that gap because there's so much knowledge about how we can best live our lives that comes from looking at those more taboo topics. brandon handley34:37You know what's funny to me is just this morning I was listening to a song, ya know which one I listened to so many um I got a Swami the chain. I'm the 34:49But the idea is that, like, there's one in 1000 that's capable of kind of taking this information right that the what you got. Right, so 35:00You're kind of the light is lighting all those around you, as it were, with what you do. So I think that that's kind of the challenge, no matter what age group is 35:09Right when you when you kind of stumble across this you know it's like you're saying you're like everybody needs to know that you can live this magnificent way. Let's follow me. We're gonna sneak in and and 35:20Rightfully nobody's like I was like, no. 35:23Um, but what I want to hit on though is that, you know, when you experienced this grief when you experienced though your mother's passing 35:36I guess like ripping the veil right between you and the spirit world and 35:42Would you, would you explain it like that. Would you describe it like that. And would you 35:47Would you describe your experience with trying to share this information with other people is being challenging and not being able to accept it. Spirit Guides35:56Um, 35:59Yeah there it was totally an unveiling will say brought me so much closer. I mean, it was even the night, my mom passed away I her apparition came to me and I was awake, like, and she came and hugged me so the veil yeah it thinned an immensely immediately. 36:20Has the information been hard for me to get out and for people to accept. 36:27I want the answer to be that it's been really difficult. Like for dramatic effect, but it hasn't it hasn't. And I think that's because 36:37I'm attracting the people that want it. I'm not, I'm not trying to go out there and be a missionary or 36:44Or an evangelical about anything, you know, and I have zero religious ties or affiliation, which is interesting with afterlife. I mean, every, every 36:53Every serious spiritual or I'm sorry, every spirit serious religion has believed in the afterlife and has after life. 37:01Philosophy and I think that, you know, obviously, a lot of people thrown out religion in their lives. And I think that was kind of like we threw the baby out with the bathwater, kind of thing. 37:10So I'm not, I'm not attached to any religion or anything like that. So I don't think that I come off as missionary. I just think I, I tried to share my authentic experience and people who are looking for. 37:23Some answers to their own grief. They find me and it's so far the. The result has been one of comforting for them, rather than 37:34You know, combative or I don't believe what you're saying. So I maybe I'm fortunate in that but you know it hasn't it hasn't been too difficult. It's actually been very rewarding. I think brandon handley37:44I can see that, especially online. What about a person Spirit Guides37:48Well in person. It's like I'm 37:49Preaching the choir, you know, I'm going to 37:52But I will say this, I will say, even in my because I told you about my history as a, you know, being in the spiritual closet and everything, even the people in my life who like my family who's known me forever and 38:02You know weren't into these things at all. They just by osmosis have 38:07By coming to my events by hearing my podcast, things like that. And now they're there, you know, exploring their own stuff and their own afterlife. And now they've 38:16Had certain people passed away and they're reaching out to mediums and investigating like oh yeah I remember Arizona said this, so let me invest it on my own. So it's kind of like planting the seeds, you know, brandon handley38:27Not 100% i think that what you've done is, is by your by leading by example you've given them permission. Right. 38:33Yeah, showing them that you can step into the space without going on claims. 38:39Right, right. That is a good that it can be a good thing. Um, I like that you kind of touched on, you know, kind of these religions and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and 38:51As far as I can tell right religions are kind of like this. 38:56Again, just like one of the thousands going to kind of understand this information right and then my kind of wants to do this just the whole 39:03You know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear right and then does you like Panda hated that lines real 39:11Quick. Um, but the thing. And I think that's the attraction of some of the Eastern philosophies right because they've been so the console like 39:19Christianity bad, you know, the pope did this and you know those priests did that and all these things so that like they just won't accept it, even though, like the exact same thing as being in 99% of the same 39:30thing over here and like these Eastern religions and they're all if you got a contract is out, man. Look what I found, like 39:36You know, so I think that it really gives us people the opportunity to framework right for for their space. 39:43And for everybody else is kind of rejected if there's people like yourself, and I don't like, well, there's this other space. We can hang out into what's been said and all these other places, but you just want to have this different same conversation. Let's do it. 39:54Right, right, right. Um, 39:56Let's talk about 39:57The fest coming up. So this is podcast, I'm probably you know this weekend, which will I know the dates are like 928 or something like that. 40:09But you know what's the festival. Let's talk about what you got a Spirit Guides40:12Spiritual brandon handley40:13On 2020 Spirit Guides40:14Cool. Yeah. So it's the conscious spirit fest. It's a collaboration between myself. 40:20And my company spirit guides media and Mona Loring and her company conscious living PR and so it's conscious spirit fest. It's on October 10 or no, it's not. It's on October 18 I was thinking 10 for October is on October 18 2020 40:36It's a Sunday, and it's basically it's an all day online virtual festival, because that's what we're doing now virtual all day long and 40:45We're so excited about it. We basically curated the event that we wanted to have right now. 40:51You know we are lonely and isolated and we do need spiritual community, one way or another right now. And so we wanted to build something for people to 41:02Unite and people who who are want to focus on Unity right now in this crazy polarized role. And so we've. We have everything from yoga in the morning to guided meditations to sound healing to breath work. And then we have amazing speakers that are talking about everything from 41:21How to deal with this pandemic burnout to energy protection for light workers, we're going to have a medium come and do live medium ship readings and we our keynote speaker is column Adele, who's an astrologer, and he's going to be talking about 41:38You know the astrology coming up, you know, for 20 2021 and all that. And in astrology in these uncertain times and what what what we might have to look forward to, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly or whatever. 41:51So, so, yeah. It's basically a day for everybody to come together and do all things mystical and create a spiritual community and 41:58And hang out together. So we're really, really excited about it. brandon handley42:02Now this sounds exciting. Like I said, you know, I think I saw Mona's paying off on Instagram. I saw start following it, and it seems like you know 42:10I love what you guys are putting together their talk to me a little bit about the astrologer, I think he's got like a little bit of a baton. What's his What's his Spirit Guides42:17So called Collins handle on Instagram is queer cosmos. And so he has he's he's and he is 42:24He's an amazing gay man and he started doing astrology for the queer community and which is was novel at the time, you know, and but more than that. I mean, he is 42:35He's one of my favorite guests have on my podcast. I'll say that right now. He's so enjoyable. He's brilliant. I mean IQ off the charts and he's he's so fun. So anytime that he's around. It's a good time. And I definitely recommend following him on Instagram at clear cosmos. He's great. brandon handley42:55So yeah, I remember that you're seeing them and chocolate. 42:59Yeah. brandon handley43:00Funny Guy when I grew up. I grew up, like in the gay community, you know, was out in San Francisco, San Francisco in the 80s right and and the one thing that happened out there was like my mom was an altercation with 43:16Her significant other, at the time, and he ended up by children and stuff. And so I ran across it, you know, the neighborhood and got these guys on the bed and they came. I can't rescue my mom so 43:28Oh wow, for the rest of my life, you know, gay guys have a 43:30Have a soft spot in my heart. Right. And it's just been in that community. It's, it's fun, right. Like, I mean, Spirit Guides43:36Oh, there's no doubt about that. brandon handley43:37So it's always a good time. 43:39See on 43:40Where, you know, should I send people to come check out more actually know what before I do that, 43:45I've done this for a minute, just because you know so the idea to have spiritual though. 43:48Is that you get this kind of you for high thru spirituality. Right. And that's like on the on the take us a spiritual dope is about that and then like 43:58You know, what's your spiritual hit right like and it talks about meditation, but when you when you're connected to source where, what does that look like Spirit Guides44:08Whoo. Yeah, there's, there's two for me. So definitely meditation. I'm a avid meditation or 44:15But their original Oh gee, writing, man. That's my space. That's my timelessness, that's the 44:20One place where I don't care if I haven't eaten and that's saying a lot. I love to eat. You know what I'm saying. Like that's that's the time where time flies and I just 44:30I'm in so much joy and I'm so inspired. I'm in spirit. You know that's that's where it is for me is when I'm writing. And so this man I'm preaching to myself right now. I got to clear it more time in my schedule to do it. 44:43But yeah, that's my spiritual dope for sure is is being in that creative zone. 44:50I love that question. brandon handley44:52Thank you. So the idea that too is like i mean i would i would i would say that 45:00You know, create you are creators right 45:03Yeah. And then when you surrender to that creativity. That's 45:08within you, right, that is source flowing through you. Is that fair to say Spirit Guides45:13Oh yeah 100%. I mean, we would we call God the Creator. And if you look at metaphysical principles as above, so below. We are here to create 45:26You know, and that's why that nine to five working somebody else's dream and fluorescent lit room didn't work for me because I felt that called to be creative. I felt, what am I doing here, if I'm not creating brandon handley45:37Something Spirit Guides45:38And now you can be creative, creative doesn't mean writing or painting all the time, creative can mean coming up with a scientific cure for cancer or whatever, you know, using your creative brain. You're in passionate about it. And so I absolutely agree with you. brandon handley45:52I love that you hit on life because 45:55People don't always recognize that they feel like creativity has to be writing painting singing, dancing. Spirit Guides46:02Brain, the arts. brandon handley46:03The classical arts 46:05Yeah, right. But 46:08And I know as somebody one day. 46:11You just got it. What is it that you'd like to create and I'm like, Well, I'm not very creative like 46:14You know you're raising kids are doing this that the other than your training things right, you're making moments, you're creating moments I mean creativity is more than, you know, put a pretty picture right so I love that you hit on that. Thanks for hanging on that. 46:29Yeah, what type of meditation do you do it, you Spirit Guides46:34Got just you didn't do not asked me that question. 46:37I am I am not. 46:39Trained in meditation at all. I'm self taught and 46:44For whatever reason, I'm pretty good at it. I just I lay down you can see my bed back there. I lay down horizontally. I don't sit in lotus position or anything I lay down on my bed. 46:54I play some Native American flute music and I go in 46:57Los brandon handley46:59That's great to write in terms of meditation or a feeling it's got to be done a certain way or like, yeah, I did a really shitty meditation this morning. Spirit Guides47:09I i think 47:11I think I you know it's the keep it simple, stupid like that's that's been my philosophy for 47:17My spiritual path and it's what's worked out for me. Like I and I you know in my company I've seen it all. I promote people that do it all. I'm talking like all the all the modalities and the 47:29Divination tactics and all this stuff and I'm Oh gee prayer and meditation and you know we all just got to do what works for us. brandon handley47:38To so they 47:40Just show us what your prayer. Looks like I always say this because I think of this Norman Vincent feel kind of skip 47:49It's not as good. It's like when he's doing his own in power positive thinking thing. 47:53And talks about this lady testing because you when you pray you don't like out there like a beggar. 47:59You know, you're like oh please give me all these things would you like you demand you know much very somewhere, come what you're talking about, like, 48:07I'm not going after it. It's got to come to me like these are things I want you know. So what's your, what's your prayer look like. Just out of curiosity, Spirit Guides48:13Yeah, I mean it's it. That is a good point it start, the only it starts always with gratitude. 48:20Always with gratitude and and then I do go into my demands. I do feeling that I've, I've had the shift from beggar to 48:30You know, this is, this is what I this is what is going to be brought to me and I, and I've learned that over time through spiritual mentors, saying, you know, you 48:38This is yours for the taking. You can you demand that so I start with gratitude and and I pray for you know what I need. In most of the time that's to take away my 48:50Worries and stresses and concerns because that's the only thing in my way. So I do pray for that to be taken and I pray for the people that I love and I pray that 49:02You know that love walks before me wherever I go. And then I pray to be used, how spirit needs me. And then I say, thank you. 49:11Yeah. brandon handley49:12Um, this will be like my last question. 49:17So when you. I like the idea of writing when you write 49:24With a pen in hand right or doesn't have to be. But I feel like that's what I'm most connected. I like to call it cosmic record player. This is my cosmic needle right 49:36You know, do you have a preference of writing by hand or typing. Spirit Guides49:41I'm 49:43I'm right differently. I write, I write both ways. And I write for different reasons I I write. I typically write 49:52Pen in Hand in my journal when I'm writing for myself and nobody else if that makes sense. And for my own clarity and my own as you say connection. 50:03But it's all about the computer for everything else. 50:07My hand hurts too much. brandon handley50:10Out of out of curiosity, right, like yourself. Once Spirit Guides50:13I do agree with you though there's there's different 50:16A whole different vibe. When you got the pen in your hand. Right, right. brandon handley50:20Now, and look, I mean, it takes a lot to to write Tom by paper. 50:27Pretty fast, man. Spirit Guides50:28Yeah, exactly. brandon handley50:31Okay, so where we're gonna need to go a couple places or warm place. So we're gonna go to find you and the spirit fast. Spirit Guides50:39Sure, I'm okay. Ultimately, you can go to spirit guides media.com for everything that I do. And on top of the navigation. 50:48At spirit guides media com you will see a link that says festival and that is where you can learn more about it. You can see the lineup. The full lineup. I didn't touch on everything. 50:58And also purchase tickets and we are offering a sliding scale pay what you can because times are tough and that is 51:05I feel the responsible thing to do. So we have that offered and other than that, you can find me on instagram at spirit guides media or my personal one is at underscore Arizona bell. I think that covers everything brandon handley51:20No. 51:22Um, well, this event view digitally after the past Spirit Guides51:28Great question. Can't believe I forgot to say that. Absolutely. So if you are able to catch none of it live or half of it live or all of it live and want to watch it again. We will send out a replay of the entire day video. So you'll get to see it all. brandon handley51:43Awesome, Arizona. Thank you so much for stopping by. Spirit Guides51:45Thanks, Brandon. It's been a joy and a pleasure.

Come on in and check out this interview with the Clicks and Mortar Queen Donnalynn Riley. Donna tells an amazing story of how she went from being the CEO of a retail chain to becoming a Spiritual Coach who is helping entrepreneurs bring ALL of who they are to their businesses. Connect with Donnalynn here at her site: https://www.donnalynnriley.com/ Also, Donnalynn has a 5 Day Masterclass you can sign up for in order: Get Out Of Your Head, Embrace Your Imperfections & Get On Track With Your Business! https://www.donnalynnriley.com/5dc-reg brandon handley00:02All right, 54321 Hey there, spiritual dope. I'm on today with Donna Lynn Riley, who is a licensed spiritual health coach who helps people develop evolve and grow. 00:17The answers they find that their journey, bring them to a new level clarity and emotional adjustment to help them develop their expertise in business systems management and marketing. 00:25And addition to her 12 years as a licensed coach her background is the CEO of a multimillion dollar corporation. 00:31informs her ability to help her clients navigate the inner workings of business systems Operations Management and Marketing so they can successfully put it all together themselves. 00:42I'm going to cut it down because that, that's great. And I'm so excited because, as we're going back and forth a little bit here earlier. This is exactly what this podcast is about. So thank you for joining me today. Donnalynn Riley00:53Oh, it's my pleasure. It's great what you're doing. It's great that you're talking about this. It's really good. brandon handley00:58Thank you. Thank you. So you mentioned that you'd call it a couple of podcasts. So what I always like to say is you know you're here today. We're using this podcast as a vehicle to send somebody out there a message, what is it that they need to hear this coming through you today. Donnalynn Riley01:17Well, I always think people need to know that life can be a lot easier than we're making it. I think that that's a place where 01:29Almost invariably people don't believe that. Right. They just go like, nah, couldn't be that I got to work harder. I gotta do more. I gotta you know think more 01:43I have to put out more effort. It's got a cost more. There's got to be a big, you know, emotional or financial cost to the things that I want in life and really 01:54Life can be so much easier than we make it. And I think that that's the benefit of of this approach of a spiritual practice that supports. 02:06Business life and certainly family life, when I know lots of coaches who do that as well. And, you know, really kind of make it better, just make your life better. brandon handley02:16Yeah, no, absolutely. So the idea is that life doesn't have to be so hard. Donnalynn Riley02:21Really doesn't brandon handley02:23And and also throw out there. I think in the first person that I know that's worked on Broadway. Right. And this is this is a story that you tell 02:30In one of your one of your videos right and helping once you tell people use that story real quick here right now. I love that story about just what you said there. 02:41Do you remember so so I'll take it away. So you were around 19 your brothers like 10 years old or new 02:47Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 02:50Yeah yeah Donnalynn Riley02:50Okay, okay. I gotcha. Sorry about that. 02:54I was like I was there a long time. I don't know. brandon handley02:58Just getting into it right and 02:59How easy how easy sometimes 03:01For you. Donnalynn Riley03:01Yeah. So what I love about that is that, um, so. Okay, so let me let me kind of lay it out here so I'm like 19 years old I 03:11You know, I'm just out the gate. Right. But I'm 10 foot tall and bulletproof because so was everybody when you're 19 brandon handley03:18Right. Yeah, absolutely. Donnalynn Riley03:19And so when you're not very dinged up 03:22You know, you just think like everything's okay and it's going to work out for me and I kind of lived my life like that really clearly I wanted, and I got things I wanted them and they lined up. 03:35So, um, I found myself on on Broadway, which I totally expected right because I wanted it. So, and I didn't know any better, and 03:46And my brother who's 10 years older than I am. He, he knew better. And he is a he is still actually a scenic artist. And so I was a sound designer. He was a scenic artist and 04:01He was working down the block. So I was working on Angels in America, and he was working on City of Angels, which I love that. But there were all these angel references. That's kind of brandon handley04:14Sure, yeah. Donnalynn Riley04:15And. And he said, Oh, let's, um, he was like down the block. And I hadn't seen him in months. It wasn't like, you know, we were spending Sunday night dinners together or something. 04:24And he said, Let's go for lunch. And I was like, yeah, this is great. Yeah, owning the town, you know, in my, in my own head, right. 04:32Sure. And he said, you, you. He's walking me to the to the place to get something to eat and 04:40He said, You just don't have any idea what it costs to get here. You don't have any idea what these people around you have had to do to get where they want to go and in typical sort of 19 year old fashion. I thought, nope. brandon handley04:59Right. Donnalynn Riley04:59I don't care. 05:00Sure, you know, really, for me, I realized that it is a story that's centered around entitlement. Right, so it's not very popular this moment, but 05:10Being able to see yourself. 05:13In the position that you want to be to be able to know that these are things that can happen for you as well as somebody else because 05:24You put the work in and you are talented and you did you know you met the right people and you were in the right place and you took the all the steps to get there. brandon handley05:32Right. Donnalynn Riley05:33There by choice. You don't get to be on Broadway. If you suck. 05:37You do not need. All right. 05:39All right, but they send you home. brandon handley05:42Well, you know, I think. 05:43I think that um I love how you're hitting on entitlement in this insane and in this way because why should it not 05:53Backup people like people bash millennials for kind of having like that kind of entitlement thing. Right. Well, what I admire about that, you know, I think that they would say you got Moxie kid right like kinda back in, but 06:07You know what you want and you're not settling for something that you don't. So is that entitlement, or is that knowing your worth. Donnalynn Riley06:17Right. It's really tricky. It's really tricky and it is a lot about alignment and I've been fortunate to hear you talk about alignment on the podcast previously and 06:28It's a really crucial step in that process. So, 06:34Of course, if we want to get kind of 06:37Cultural about it, then we can we can sort of back it up a little and say, Well, some people have a lot of things that support the belief already in their lives when they're born, and when they're, you know, one and two and three and so it, it becomes 06:55There becomes a divide, but it's a divide in belief. brandon handley07:00100% Donnalynn Riley07:00You know, so it's a it is a really tricky thing. And the important thing for me in the work that I do with people. 07:09Is to whether you've ever experienced that belief or not before is to help you to find that belief because without it is very, very, very difficult to get where you want to go. I, I know people who have done it. It's like they kind of stumbled into their success and that's okay. brandon handley07:25That's true, but it's not very reliable. Donnalynn Riley07:29And so, you know, doing the inner work to create a system of belief for yourself so that 07:36It doesn't sound crazy that you're going to have a successful business or that you're going to get a client that you want to or that you're going to get employees that work out well for you and things like that. I'm doing that inner work makes 07:51All the outer stuff kind of 07:52Line up real quick, like the story I just told where I went from two years or three years I spent in sound design, we're learning from the best in the business. I was already learning from the people who were there, right. 08:06And and and and so I was able to do that very quickly, where a lot of my classmates in college got there 1015 years later, and they worked a lot harder for something because they didn't believe 08:23They didn't know 08:23They thought, oh, I have to go out and do something else first brandon handley08:27Right. We listen, even me today, right now with this podcast. I love it so much. I want to put this, I want to put this 08:36Nice polish on, I want to make it feel so good. I want it to be inviting you know 08:40That, you know, and this isn't wrong to hire somebody in marketing, but I like I really want these pieces I wanted to look so I want it to be so accepted because it's so 08:48meaningful to me right so I'm putting these blocks in 08:53For myself, right. I'm just putting these. Oh, I gotta do this like nothing can happen until this happens and all these other things and and literally that is in my own mind, nobody else's. I mean, nobody nobody else cares. That's just me. Right. 09:07Right. So when you're out there. 09:11And your clientele and and you're working I do they seek you out for one or the other, do you introduce like you know 09:20To the business pressure, like, well, if you just loop in some spirituality, then this might be better for you, like, tell me a little bit how this process of working with you, looks Donnalynn Riley09:30Yeah, so I kind of stand between that space right I stand between entrepreneurs and small business people who are 09:40That's what they do. That's what they've learned. They have a strong background or they have a strong desire but they don't necessarily have any spiritual practice at all. 09:49And I sort of stand between that and the people who are very spiritually open but can't figure out how to turn the computer on right 09:59And rent like can't figure out the details of, like, how do I charge people. And why would they pay me and 10:06These kinds of like nuanced things that, of course, they have a lot of talent and they have a lot of 10:13Value in the world, but so I do kind of stand in between those two spaces, I would say that for the most part, most of the people that I work with are 10:26Are on the business side but are open. brandon handley10:30Okay. 10:31Because okay you can Donnalynn Riley10:32Sort of insert and this is not you know there are a lot of really involved spiritual practices. 10:39And they have value that is beyond what I'm about to express right so this is not to disparage any spiritual practices. I think they all have a lot of value and 10:51But you can in a very short period of time with with not a ton of work right. You don't have to go and study with the monks for 18 years right with with putting a practice into your life. You can attain a lot of result and a lot of ease in your life. 11:12A lot less frustration, a lot of movement forward right so you can start to assess your situation better and access yourself in moments that are stressful better and all of these things lead to better businesses. 11:30But aren't always they're not really taught too often. brandon handley11:35I mean, if you have the capability to kind of calm yourself down in the moment, or just realize what you're about to say or 11:43If you're feeling tense right so what I'm hearing you say is like you're giving them some of these tools to to really kind of ease into themselves and what they're about. Donnalynn Riley11:51Yeah, there's bigger work that we do in order to make lasting change. And that really happens inside one on one trainings that I do or or inside group work that I do with people, but 12:08There are so many little what we would call hacks right there, little, like, oh, if I do this, I feel a little better. 12:16Right. And those are emergency hacks, you know, and they're really useful. They're a great way to get started. I think because 12:26Getting a little relief reminds you that you're probably going to get more relief. If you keep going in that direction. And I think that's a great place to start, particularly for people who are 12:41Who don't have a strong spiritual background but know that like there's something going on in my mind set or those kinds of words are being used a lot recently. Right. brandon handley12:51Right I yeah for sure. For sure. Right. Well, I mean, it's funny because, you know, I think I started off in the mindset space right but now in this 13:01Next level space right where you do this practice, like you said, For doesn't have to be 18 years but you do it repeatedly and you start with like the mindset. You start with the small pieces and 13:13You keep just kind of growing into these other spaces and these other practices that are available to and sooner or later you like I guess they were all right. Donnalynn Riley13:26I love that. Right. brandon handley13:30Right. 13:31Right. So, I mean, I guess you know there's something in those things and what they're saying and what they're doing. 13:37But, you know, so what what led you into this pace yourself. Donnalynn Riley13:43Well, 13:45You know, that's a good question. I, when I look back at my life. I see all these moments like the one that I just described when I'm like very young. 13:54That fit into this kind of way of thinking and this way of being. But I was really pretty unaware of myself and my spirituality until actually my husband got a life threatening disease. 14:15And or problem he got a tumor in his brain cavity. 14:20And he when he was very young. He spent a lot of time in hospitals. And so we went to the first doctor and it was a big emergency and he said, I'm getting a second opinion. And then we went to the next doctor who you know we we finagle their way into the good doctors and all of that and 14:43We went and he described it. And he said, Oh yeah, you have a little time because I'm very good at this. But, you know, you got to get in here in the next month or something. So it was no longer like a huge emergency we have little time. 14:56Sure, and 14:59We were driving home. It was in New York City. We live in Massachusetts. It was a long drive home. We were driving home and my husband said to me. 15:06Yeah, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that I'm not doing that. I don't know what we're going to do, but I think you should find me another solution because I don't, I'm not going to do that. 15:17And that being that you just that just have him for you have been for me. I was like, oh, 15:23Wow, okay. That should be my job. 15:25Okay. Donnalynn Riley15:29No question. 15:31In fairness, I'm sure he was very overwhelmed in that moment. brandon handley15:35Right out Donnalynn Riley15:36Here and and so that was the beginning. That was the kickoff for me to really 15:45Take a look at what is possible. So, and be completely outside the box. Yeah. So once I sort of had to be completely outside the box. Then the possibilities became very, very different. 16:00So it kicked off a series of involvements with people who could help his health and who could do it in very untraditional ways 16:11And also, who required of both of us that we change drastically that we, the concept that we had gotten ourselves into this mess, and that we were going to get ourselves out of this mess was not one that I heard in the doctor's office. 16:31Was and it was really clear and so 16:34And within 16:37A few months, we were both licensed spiritual health coaches, we probably took, I don't know, six months, nine months, something like that for that process and we said, Okay, this is this, we're leaning in because we are not going where that other train was going 16:59Okay, so. So that's really the beginning of when I became a much, much more aware of myself of my thoughts of my 17:09Relationship to the world of my discomfort that I had become just completely accepting of right I had just said, Oh, well that's the way life is, you know and and really be in that awareness, I found new answers. brandon handley17:28So, um, you know what, I guess the one thing is right when you're we're 19 and your earlier years before you 17:37had developed an awareness, you would be, what would we call you know 17:43Was it 17:45Unconscious competence, right, like you and I were you, you were already aligning yourself and you weren't aware that you were doing it. And then once you kind of develop this newfound awareness. 17:56You were able to do this with intention and purpose. Donnalynn Riley18:00That's exactly right. brandon handley18:02Now, so, and also throw out like when you know so I was raised by a hippie mom grew up you know out San Francisco and she was always kicking the word awareness around right when I was growing up, I was like, I'm aware. You see me run into 18:15I've ever run into a thing. 18:18Right, I use it everything outside of me right everything outside of me. I was I was completely aware of. I didn't miss a beat. Yeah didn't miss a beat. But the awareness that I think that you're talking about today is the awareness inside. Is that fair Donnalynn Riley18:32That's exactly right. 18:33That is exactly right and very hard to articulate. You did that quite well that 18:39People, most of the time, feel like they are aware when they start working with me, they're like, Yeah, yeah, I got that part, I need the accurate assessment. Come on, let's get to the good stuff here. 18:49And and that awareness that inner awareness and that ability to kind of be with yourself for periods of time in order to deepen that awareness is very important to the next steps. And so you're absolutely right that people are like, I'm aware. Let's fix my landing page. brandon handley19:16It's all 19:17It's all marketing has nothing to do with what's happening. 19:19Right, right. 19:21Nothing internal happening fixed that. Donnalynn Riley19:23I just had that targeting right we would 19:25All set. So, what what is what is like when when somebody first brandon handley19:29Starts off what's uh what's like one tool that you like to start them off with to 19:35Begin to develop that inner awareness. Donnalynn Riley19:39One of my favorite 19:42Sort of 19:47Let me go back a second here in my thinking. One of my tools that is the easiest for me to sort of give in this kind of a space. 19:59Is actually 20:00A little bit of mirror work. Now some people will know mirror work from different varieties of, you know, mindset work and spiritual work. 20:10The mirror work that that I find is the fastest path to to becoming present 20:22Which is really that first goal is just start being in your body. 20:29Is a piece where you literally just sit with the mirror and look in the mirror in your eyes and say I am here. 20:42Over and over and over. You're sort of calling to yourself. Right. So there's a lot of work that we do after that that involves breath and 20:53Other types of awareness that we can 20:55We can bring in 20:57But 20:59But that's really the the space that I find people kind of are able to bring themselves into the room a little bit and say, oh, OK. I am actually here. Let me give this a shot. I'll be president now. brandon handley21:12Well, I mean, cuz it's, there's still the physical aspect of it right, they're still doing a physical activity, but then they're also acknowledging that it's them right right there in front of them and pulling themselves kind of gather right there. 21:27Right, so I love that. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley21:29And it's deliberate. It's deliberate. So even though a lot of times when people start that process, they don't know. It's deliberate 21:37They, they go like, well, I said the words and then I felt different. I don't know what happened. Right. But in fact it there. There is a deliberateness to it. That is really important that you are impacting you 21:53In that moment. brandon handley21:57Well, that, you know, being deliberate again, you know, intentional, knowing that you're making this choice. I know that I kind of 22:04laughed a little bit about it earlier, but you know, you get to wherever you are today. And I think this is what the spiritual coaches were probably telling you before you guys set the course that 22:13You guys made the decisions to be in that situation right as as a collective even and you you guys when you first heard that you were just like what that's done, nobody's ever said that, you know, kind of that way right to us before 22:29So, I mean, I'm assuming your husband still alive. Donnalynn Riley22:32Oh, yeah. brandon handley22:35Like I hope the story has a good idea. 22:37Because, you know, so 22:39What happens right i mean you go in and he jumped into all this stuff, how, you know, how does it clear up on it never gets checked out again and somehow he still is what happened. Donnalynn Riley22:48No, no. So what happens on that story is that we do the work we do the inner work and we do the emergency inner work and it is kind of emergency at that 23:02Maybe for a year or so as you still feel like what's happening. 23:07And we he gets checked out again. And it's shrinking. 23:12Okay, and we have do have, I will say a spectacular doctor who's actually a doctor. brandon handley23:20Sure, sure. And 23:22It's always handy to have one on standby. Donnalynn Riley23:25WELL KNOW WHO DOES THIS WORK. Oh. brandon handley23:27Okay, that sounds even better yet, Donnalynn Riley23:29He's a trained Western doctor but functions in an Eastern paradigm brandon handley23:35Love it. Donnalynn Riley23:36And so he his toolkit is very, very large. And he honestly I've seen. I've never seen a problem he hasn't been able to impact positively and I have seen him deal with a lot of stuff now. 23:53So, so we had the guidance we had long distance guidance, because he's not right here in our backyard and 24:01We had long distance guidance and we did the work. And that I think is the, the key to that is to sort of have somebody who's ahead of you who can say, yeah, no, no, no. You're going in a direction. You'll be all right. 24:14Sure, sure. And so eventually that tumor went away. brandon handley24:17That's amazing. I love it. And so 24:20You would attribute that almost all to the air work was there like a dietary change. Donnalynn Riley24:26There were other changes. Yeah, absolutely. There were dietary changes, and we think there was 24:35Well, in his particular case, it had a great deal to do with a inability to deal properly with pesticides and with wheat. brandon handley24:46In the Donnalynn Riley24:46On the dietary front. So there was that and 24:54I think there was juicing and there was a lot of things. brandon handley24:57Which are look at 24:59Things. Right. 25:00Body. Sure, absolutely. Absolutely. So, and I think that's, that's interesting. The two right you know so change a die with this practice. I'm the things that are inside of you are the things that are outside of you know that this 25:15Miracle doesn't kind of happen on its own. You gotta, you gotta put it together and you got to maintain it and you know the things that do happen to it. Your body's a miracle. Right. It's amazing. 25:28And it's something like that's happening in this story right you have the ability to change that without getting i don't know i'm guessing he was getting a laser to the back of the head or something right was Donnalynn Riley25:39Wasn't. No, no, they wanted to do full 25:41On surgery. 25:43can address and take goop out 25:47And put goop in from other part. brandon handley25:52Was Donnalynn Riley25:53Unbelievably scary. brandon handley25:55Sure, sure. So, but, I mean, the what's amazing too and your story is that a lot of people would have just gone ahead and gone that route. Right. Donnalynn Riley26:03And they would have tried to talk to your spouse into it. It's their spouse said no. And that I think is something that is I, I have been very fortunate to be able to have that reciprocal relationship with my husband, where if one of us says, No, no, this is how I really feel about the thing 26:20Yeah, even if the other one thinks like, ah, you're just scarred, we should get you over that. 26:26But there is enough space. And this is an important concept in in business in the way we live our lives in general. Right. 26:35Is that there is enough space for us to be scarred and still have full and wonderful lives. It's kind of I think of it a lot about 26:45How you know how certain trees grow and they get these scars in them. And then we cut them up and we make them into coffee tables and we call them beautiful world would 26:54Say. Isn't that spectacular right 26:57Well, that's what we're making yeah in ourselves, we have experienced life and things haven't gone right and we have changed the way that we deal with things F, day after day after day and tried new approaches and had new experiences. 27:14And all of those things are brought into this present moment. And if you allow them then finding a new answer that. That doesn't mean you have to like check out your whole personality becomes somebody else right brandon handley27:32Right, right. Donnalynn Riley27:32No, no, it's okay. You can go spend time in the hospital. 27:36Right show. You don't have to be someone else. You can be you and you can be successful. brandon handley27:41Right. Well, yeah. And in regards to write the 27:46Merging all this together. Right. 27:48But I'll say it. I love Maplewood like the birds. I'm April, right, that's kind of one of the one of the times, you're talking about right and it does become so beautiful. Right. I'm like, I'm over you're sitting right now we're turning ourselves into beautiful maple tables but 28:02I love, I love the story that you're telling about that. I think that that's great. 28:09So let's just I want is, what if some of that wasn't working at any point would didn't feel like, you know, because I don't want to get the impression that 28:19You shouldn't keep a doctor nearby. Right. I mean, because you guys kept the doctor nearby that right live as he was a Western medicine doctor that yes also specialize in this space. Donnalynn Riley28:29I think that the the message that should not be taken from my experience is, go do something extreme like I did right and that the message that should be taken, I hope people take from my experience is be true to yourself and find your own answers. 28:54Because they are there, but they're only there if you calm down long enough to allow them to sort of become revealed. They weren't there in the doctor's office right only the first step, which was no I know what I don't want brandon handley29:10To Donnalynn Riley29:11But there wasn't the step of, like, I know what I do want. Right. Yeah. 29:16Yeah. And in fact, I think that something very important happened there because it was life threatening. Right, it's not 29:23It's not the same as in business where things can go right or wrong and we can find our own alignment. Right. But in this scenario. I think one of the most 29:35impactful things that happened was that my husband had someone to turn to and say, You figure it out because he then could go about the business of lining up with becoming well 29:51He didn't know how, but he had faith. 29:53Yeah, leaf. He said, This person loves me and they're relatively smart. They'll figure it out. brandon handley30:02Well, I think you bring the other one up to which I always love you don't have to know how you don't have to know how you just have to know that that's what you want. That's right. Right. And us where they can just 30:16Move forward in that direction. You know, as if it's not Nestle like I i get i get a little caught up in between, like Law of Attraction with like, you know, 30:28Spirituality space, right. I don't think that they're one the same. I think they're very close, but I don't I don't I don't like to make a sandwich out of, I guess. 30:37Um, Donnalynn Riley30:38But so many ways to look at life you know 30:41It would be a shame to sort of collapse it into only one way 30:46Hundred percent I think that's one of the reasons that the concept of spirituality so appealing to me is that it's big. brandon handley30:53Right, it's yours. Donnalynn Riley30:54I can be a part of this energy and I can be a part of that energy and I don't have to really understand it intellectually. I just have to decide that I'm willing to be a part of that. brandon handley31:05Right. No, I see ideas. Do you even know how you're here. Right. I mean, we don't even understand how we're here to begin with, I mean. So where does that leave us so 31:19Let's talk a little bit more about the outside of the story. Thanks for sharing that. That was Donnalynn Riley31:22My pleasure. Thanks for bringing it up. I, I had 31:26Was I was gonna tell it. brandon handley31:27Yes. I mean you know that, but that's that's kind of how you got into this space. And then, you know, I'm guessing that you kind of incorporated. Now some of this spiritual practice modality. And you were seeing the benefits that it was having in the business space. 31:41So at Donnalynn Riley31:42That time 31:43I was actually the CEO of a corporation. 31:46Okay, so 31:49This was what my life was like, like my every day was going to work as the CEO of a corporation. 31:56Right, so, you know, to, to become to to shift perspective in this massive way and then go back to work the next day and be like, 32:08Oh yeah, I'm gonna do it, just the way I used to do it. 32:11Let them work out. 32:13Right, so there had to be for me a re assessing a real understanding of the business world so that and the end the specifics of my business involvement with people so that I could find peace with the 32:36The 32:38Pathway that we were on brandon handley32:40Okay. Donnalynn Riley32:40So I had many years to do that. I didn't leave that world until 32:452014 and I that the story I told. And when I got my licensure was well 32:55The story I told started in 2007 32:58Okay, so it was putting a time in their 33:02Right to Try concepts out to go to work and to feel differently about things and then see what happens. And now have to take action right away. 33:12To decide that your solution to this relationship problem with an employee with the board of directors with it. Whoever whoever you're dealing with with with the clients themselves. 33:27That you are going to shift that but not by going in and saying something different or doing something different and being like, I am different. Now, now you behave differently, right, which is how people love to approach it. 33:38Sure does not work doesn't work, just 33:42But to really be able to take the time to say okay I am willing to to try everything that I have learned out on myself and to teach it to my staff and to pass it along to people who come and ask for it. 34:02There was a lot of opportunity right now. I'm seeing a lot of people in a day. And there's a lot of opportunity and people will ask you the wildest things 34:10Sure. And so 34:14Yeah, so I had that I had that. And so that was a way for me to really shift the way that I saw business. And what I knew for a fact would work in business. 34:27I had a lot of knowing what didn't work. And some of what did work. I had attained a position and, you know, was filling that position. Well, and all of that. But I really was able to sort of AMP that all up by 34:40By being able to try these things and not know 34:45If they were going to work. 34:47And do them anyway. brandon handley34:49What would be an example of that. Donnalynn Riley34:55Well, there was at one point there was a time when the board of directors was not happy with me. 35:04Man I know, it doesn't mean it doesn't even make sense. 35:06No, it doesn't. It kind of in this world. 35:09And and was not happy with anyone in my 35:15In my purview at all like not like there was no one. And so there was one particular board member who would come in and 35:24Kind of create difficulty. Right. It was a time of change. And I was directing the, the company in a direction that was scary and different and new 35:36And that was not really okay for that board and so that member would come in and and sort of undermine what was happening or stand in the way of what was happening. 35:49And I don't think that was the intention, but I think that it was really to look out for the company and to like really well founded. But really bad idea. And so this went on for 36:05Several weeks several weeks and different members of my staff kept coming to me and saying, what are we going to do this can't go on and I would have a chat and, you know, it still went on and that was the way it was. And I had tried a lot of business solutions for this. 36:23But one day I decided that I was going to just focus on the inner work and I spent all of my off time 36:34Doing that inner work and it was a process it. A lot of times people like me to sort of distill it down into one thing that I did. And certainly, I could name some things that you can do in that scenario but 36:48Really, the important thing was that I was no longer tied to the outcome based on yesterday. 36:56So that we had been through it right. This has been going on for weeks, we had tried everything we know what didn't work. We know. No, no. Right. But we didn't really we didn't because today is a new day. 37:09And this is a new moment. 37:11Right. And so once that happened once there was a disassociation with the past, then 37:19The process of becoming holy present and allowing the other people to become wholly present other this person in particular. 37:29Then the, the issues that are around, it can be dealt with and the attitude can shift. And there can no longer be. It doesn't have to be an aggressive situation, which is what had developed 37:41Right. But once that all dissipates. Then you can have the real conversations about the work that really should be being done in those in that scenario. 37:52Right, I should be held accountable for that in my position and that person should be able to say what they have to say. But there was no space for 38:00Any of that. 38:02And to east and east and east and about two weeks later, one of the gentlemen that work for me came to me and said, What did you do 38:13What did you do 38:14Well you fixed it for you, but you didn't fix it for me. 38:19And I said, Well, I could teach you what it was like, why can't you just fix it. brandon handley38:26That's funny. That's funny. So one of the things that you kind of, you start out there to with the is not having to take action right away, right, because we feel that 38:36We need to take this action immediately to for some type of corrective measure like 38:42Where the like where the savior of whatever is happening, they're like, well, there's no we got to fix this. Right. But you're saying though, you just kind of step back. Yeah. But some of the things just play out on their own and right Donnalynn Riley38:55Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. There's actually a three step process that I teach that 39:02Is a called the triple a method of transformation and that three step process is really important. Some people get one step. 39:12Some people get two steps, but rarely do we hear people talk about the third, the middle step right 39:18Right. So the first step in that is awareness and we've talked a lot about that today, which is 39:23Wonderful. And the third step in that is the action stage right the adaptation. What are you going to do, usually people kind of jump from one to the other and they go, they go like, yes, I'm aware there's a problem. Now I have a solution. 39:38And it's the middle step that is the most important and that really isn't an accurate assessment, you can't make an accurate assessment, unless you're in a receiving mode you're in a 39:58Listening period. A watching period a learning period right it's you can't assess something. If you think you know everything about it already. 40:09So you have to do the exploration that is that middle stage that's between Awareness. Awareness of yourself awareness of your situation and then 40:21Learning so that you can be accurate in your assessment. And that's, I think, really where most of the time it all falls apart is that the assessment is not accurate. 40:33Hmm. And so that's how you jump from the one step to the other step is that you go like now I got this move on. 40:43But you don't know yet. But there's like a guy behind the curtain run and my thing. You know what I mean. 40:48Sure. 40:49So that's brandon handley40:51That's more than you know awareness of your thought process awareness of the, you know, conscious choices awareness of doing these things. 41:00With purpose and intention, but also, you know, I like how you bring up this you know accurate assessment piece because it was just yesterday as matter of fact I sat down with a transformational coach and 41:14It was what you're saying here is you can assess, but kind of like a and I feel like this is what I had done right I assess the situation quickly. 41:24And felt that was good enough. Right. And then he goes, Well, I think, actually, you need to go one more layer deeper. Yeah. And he took me one more layer deeper. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, Donnalynn Riley41:35Totally different answer to. Right. brandon handley41:37Well, totally different answer. Totally different feeling totally different space in place and you know 41:44Therefore, ergo my assessment initially was not accurate. Yeah, that's right. Right. 41:53And you know we're here. We keep learning and this, this is even has to do with just, you know, if you're working with a client, they feel like they know who they are. All right. And you've got it you what you're doing is you're helping them to slow down and 42:07Truly learn who they really are. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley42:09That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think that was true for me. So I think that one of the things that makes it easier for me to 42:18To talk to people is that I've stood someplace. Very, very similar to where they're standing and so that feeling like I know especially having some early success. 42:30Right, sure. No, I do. No. 42:33No, I did it. I know how to do it. No, no, actually you don't 42:39Because you did it, but you didn't know how you did it. 42:41Yeah, you did it, but you can't repeat it, and 42:46Source, all of that. brandon handley42:48Sure, yeah. 42:50But it's looking those steps and and and i think that we've been fortunate, right, like a laughed at the beginning how there's, you know, 43:00There's pathways for us to take you know that the plenty of people have done this before us. We're not the first people to show up like I got this. 43:08Follow me like there's no whole whole society is built on this and 43:13We're lucky that we've got that available to us right that framework, the possibility to kind of 43:18Go to even you right or you know your spiritual coaches to run them in the first time, like there's a whole nother way. 43:25And it fits into this and, oh, I can get the same results by but but by doing it this way instead of this other brash like I'm going to take the bull by the horns and crush everybody mentality. Right. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley43:40Yeah, I, I, actually, when I first kind of got that there was another way and that it was actually more effective I so I had been into herbs, my whole life where I felt like I i liked spices in my food, and I 43:54I knew some of the properties of things. And I would you know give myself cold medicine by eating the garlic or whatever it was. Right, sure, and and 44:03I got that there was, I knew about herbs and spices that there were in different parts of the world, they would do the same things, but be totally different plans. 44:13And I was like, 44:14Oh, I don't really get why that's true, that you can take turmeric from India and you can take, you know, yarrow from North America and you're going to get a similar thing and happening for you. 44:29And I, I knew that it was possible, but I couldn't make any sense of it until we got to this concept, this concept of being present and being aware 44:44And showing up in a new way and then taking action. Then I got, oh, there are just so many ways, right. I could have said 10 different things in that moment. 44:57And gotten a really similar response to that, or maybe my relationship problem, like I've, I've worked with people a lot with 45:07business relationships where they're particularly with employees, where they're not getting the results they want with the employees and they feel like it's the employees problem. 45:18And that works. The first or second or third employee, but it does not work after that. 45:23To face a few things. 45:26And you can try all the techniques you want, right, there's a lot of management techniques and those i'm sure can be effective in under certain circumstances. 45:37But really when you're willing to do that work inside you and the technique, doesn't matter anymore because 45:45The result can happen regardless of the technique that you're using, sort of like that plant it's planted in a, you know, different sides of the earth, but it's helping your body because the world is meant to support us for sure that's what that's what is here for brandon handley46:01At least from our perspective. Hundred percent hundred percent Donnalynn Riley46:05Plant feels like it's there for them. brandon handley46:08But what I just I just saw like you know I think somebody talk. I think I was listening to Wayne Dyer right and he's talking about like if you lift the seeds or whatever and you plant them that they take in that your DNA, and they grow to to you. 46:21Yeah, so 46:22So I'll always always something interesting. 46:26Always something interesting. Geez, you said something there that I wanted to hit on but uh what you know. 46:34So what are some. What are some that's what's gonna say, so you're, you know, the techniques become 46:42More like a again a vehicle for what's inside of you, right, and that's your focal point, you're like, All right, you know, 46:49It's the techniques, not working. It's because I look I take to jujitsu right and oftentimes the, the deal is, I'm using a technique, but I'm also trying to put all this force power behind like 47:04Running grown in 47:06But it's when I relax and just simply apply the technique. 47:11That it works. I'm like, why, what this doesn't make any sense. Right. So again, it sounds like you know if you do the inner work and you figure out kind of what's in you just you just kind of let that out, Masha, but you focus it gently on the technique, it works. Donnalynn Riley47:23Yeah, we're back where we were when we started right life can be a lot easier than we make it brandon handley47:30And and so you know what what are 47:34What are some of the other things that you're finding with your clients right. How are they, what's their reception been to their new selves. Donnalynn Riley47:44Reception to their new cells. Fantastic question. 47:48Wow. I like I'm pretty good. brandon handley47:54Sure. Donnalynn Riley47:55You know, it feels a lot better to be not frustrated and not irritated and have a new way to accept your imperfections and to say I can be whole and I can show up and I can shift my life in these ways where I get the result that I want and still be may brandon handley48:18Not have to Donnalynn Riley48:19Turn into somebody else. I mean, I think these are the kinds of things that a lot of times people really feel like, all right, I want to go there. So I'll just be someone else for a while. 48:33They 48:34Got themselves off from themselves, right. brandon handley48:36So, Donnalynn Riley48:37And this is how people end up to be older and more bitter. 48:43And then eventually at some point they say I'm not doing that anymore. And sometimes that's at retirement age sometimes that's a lot earlier. 48:52You're really lucky if you don't have a lot of patience for that kind of thing in your life. brandon handley48:57Well, you know, you know, recently, my wife, she she hit that point right she just said this is enough. This is too much and and she's now you know we come from two different types of backgrounds. Right. 49:08Where she came from, you know, the you work hard, you get a job you keep that job for as long as you can, it's safe. It's good. They watch out for you. 49:16But at what cost, right, I think you'd mentioned that to like what costs like you're the costs. 49:22Is you your life, your, your whole, you know, they call it grind it out for a reason. You're losing each day to the grind. So I don't want to keep you too long, but this has been, I've had a lot of fun with this conversation. 49:35A lot of fun with this conversation. 49:37Where, where should and we did talk about you do have something coming up. I want to make sure people know that you've got this, you've got this challenge come out to us talk on that. Donnalynn Riley49:45You. I do. I have a five day 49:49Workshop, or I'm 49:53Just loving the words just scramble away from you. brandon handley49:56Absolutely, it says all day every day. 49:59To Donnalynn Riley49:59Day challenge coming up and it, it is called get out of your head. Embrace your imperfections and get on track with your business. 50:10And so that's what we're going to do for five days, we're going to go through the process and we're going to really delve into that process. We talked a little bit more 50:19Earlier about the AAA method of transformation and get to apply some of that and really see what kind of 50:29changes we can make in such a short period of time for lots and lots of people to to quiet the noise to to find that space that we've been talking about and to still be wholly yourself to really embrace that you're okay, as Your imperfections and then apply that process. 50:51It's a very interesting process, I think. 50:53It will be really great to see how everybody does. brandon handley50:56That's awesome. So what type of people should be attending this event. Donnalynn Riley51:00Anyone who's interested in business. 51:05Who is open. Yeah. 51:07Yeah, so this is this work is not easy. It's not like, you know, kind of, you were talking about this with talking about your wife's background and a lot of people come from a background where it's kind of supposed to be hard. And when life is not fun. They say, what is it they say they say brandon handley51:27Oh my lemonade. 51:31Life's not supposed to be fair, I don't know. Donnalynn Riley51:33Yeah, all that brandon handley51:34All that stuff. Donnalynn Riley51:35So what, like, I get that. And there are people who need that kind of structure in their life, and they're not ready to let go of that that's okay with me. brandon handley51:43Yeah. Donnalynn Riley51:43Don't come to mind. 51:47But anyone everyone. I hope Pro has a business involvement writing particularly I work for the most part with entrepreneurs. 51:57So you're the driver of your business boat, it makes it much easier. And who wants to work on something and knows that the answer is somewhere in them might they're willing to do some work for it. That is personal. That is development personal development work. 52:20And and really you show up with willingness and I'd be happy to guide you all the way through the process that would be great. brandon handley52:30Awesome and listen. 52:32You know, you've had you been a successful CEO, you started off successful businesses you sold businesses. 52:41And, you know, for anybody, which website. Again, Donald in Donnalynn Riley52:46Donnellan Riley calm. brandon handley52:48Down. So head over to the site shine house or for videos yourself, you will be able to see 52:53That she knows what she's talking about. So I think that that's really exciting. And, you know, we didn't dig too deep into the business aspects of today. We just had a really great. I felt like conversation. 53:03But you clearly know you know what it is that you're doing. You've done the work you contains to do the work. And you know what you're putting out. I think there's no top notch really really quality stuff. Donnalynn Riley53:13Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to be here and to get to talk about this topic in such depth. So that's really nice. It's great that you're talking about this in a in a really deep way this sort of spirituality and business and in that space. brandon handley53:28You know what, you got to be able to like you keep saying, and that's what it means to bring all of who you are right, they're not two separate things. If you keep your spiritual self over here and your material or reality over here, you're missing out on the one, two punch you know 53:44You really you've really got the opportunity to kind of blend you're you're working at 50% of capacity. Yeah, right. So he can 53:51You know blend those two which which I know you can teach how to do what you get to bring to your workplace or wherever you decide to show up after you learn about who you are. It's just, it's that much more powerful. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley54:04It really is. brandon handley54:05Yeah. Hundred percent. Thanks again. Donnalynn Riley00:59:18Thank you.

Episode 1: Getting Started the Concept PhasePurpose: 1:35Confidence: 16:45Excuses 30:10Underdogs 45:28You might be wondering; how are these words related?The very first Episode! Listen in to meet the team and learn about who we are! Relatively Related is a podcast where we show the relationship between four different words, concepts, or ideas. We also happen to all be relatives and we welcome you, our audience, as our honorary relatives as well! Come join our family! In today's episode, the four relatives discuss starting projects, particularly the concept phase. The concept phase is a very important one for any person or team that is working on a goal, without your concept there really is no solid basis for success. Join us as we show you how Purpose, Confidence, Excuses, and Underdogs are all related to the Concept phase when starting a project.  How its all related 57:00This Month's Challenge:Each month on Relatively Related we embark on a challenge to push us to become better people and to do more. This month's challenge: The members of relatively related start their separate podcasts!Books Mentioned in this EpisodeEverything is Figureoutable by Marie ForleoDavid and Goliath by Malcolm GladwellTake Control of Your Life by By Mel RobbinsUpcoming EpisodesIn the following weeks, we will discuss the remaining phases of starting a project: preparation and execution. Finally, in week 4 we will recap how we did on our own challenges. Enjoyed spending time with the family? If you did, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. Doing so will not take a long time but it will go a long way in helping us grow. Thanks in advance! And remember we are all relatively related somehow! Follow us:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relativelyrelated/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsIfLv5GnpF_t_40Z_2VfZQ (Video Episodes will be posted here weekly for each podcast)

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost 1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues2:4 Or languages; also in verse 11 as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,2:9 That is, the Roman province by that name 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.” Peter Addresses the Crowd 14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17“ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’2:21 Joel 2:28-32 22“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,2:23 Or of those not having the law (that is, Gentiles) put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him: “ ‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope, 27because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay. 28You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’2:28 Psalm 16:8-11 (see Septuagint) 29“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’2:35 Psalm 110:1 36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. The Fellowship of the Believers 42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.  

Today’s readings:Deuteronomy 6:1-9, 20-25Ephesians 5:1-14St. Luke 11:14-28You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Rachel and I chat about what led them to Africa,  her acculturation process, living as a minority and how that has increased her empathy for people who believe differently, what she has gleaned from the practices of her Muslim friends, and her book Stronger Than Death.  3:45 Will you share a little of your faith journey with us?  When did you come to know Jesus as Savior? "The older you get the more people you love. The more people you love the more pain there is in the world. Watching God meet me in those trials and meet my friends in their trials my faith has become more of a sense of being with God, with Jesus and less some kind of conviction of right theology or right dogma." 6:28You have lived in the horn of Africa for 17 years.  What led you there?  As newlyweds, she and her husband lived in an apartment complex in Minnesota where most of their neighbors were Somalians. They moved to Somaliland in 2003 with 2.5 year old twins for her husband to teach at the university. 9:45 To give our listeners a visual share a little about Djibouti....the religion, the landscape, the food, etc. Majority population of Djibouti is Somali  Majority religion is Muslim Djibouti is a desert country on the water Djibouti is a former French colony Djibouti is a stable place surrounded by war and challenges The Red Sea and Gulf of Aden meet, so the underwater life is beautiful. Djibouti has the hottest climate in the world 13:12 You are a Christian and so often we hear the stories of Christians moving to Africa as missionaries, but for you and your husband it was to teach at a University.  In one of the articles you wrote, you share about an early friendship you developed with Amaal, a Muslim woman, which helped you learn much about the culture and religion.  Share with us a little about the acculturation process and how Muslim's and other religions interact peacefully in Djibouti. "I've gone through different thought processes of how I think about the character of God and the words we use to describe God or how I practice prayer.  I haven't really adopted any Muslim practices, but I have been challenged by them. For example, in prayer...There's a call to prayer 5 times a day. There's mosques all over, so I can hear from work. I can hear it from my house. The call to prayer is basically, come to prayer. In the morning, the man singing it will say, 'Prayer is better than sleep. God is great. Come to prayer.' I can use that to call my own self to pray, to remember God even if I'm not following the exact same motions as a Muslim would...I can use the call to prayer to stimulate my own spiritual life." SHOW NOTES continued --------------------------------------------------- Follow Rachel Pieh Jones on IG and Djibouti Jones Follow Grace Enough Podcast on IG and FB ---------------------------------------------------------

In this episode we discuss cheating in committed relationships/marriage. We touch on why people cheat, statistically who cheats more, and much more!*Scriptures from today's episode: Matthew 19:9, Matthew 5:28You can visit our blog at: https://weseekfirst.com/blog/. We are also now on Patreon! Click here to become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/WeSeekFirstIf you would like to comment or contact us, click here: https://weseekfirst.com/contact-us/Interested in having your taxes filled for you online? Visit our sponsor J&B Income Tax Service,LLC and get started now!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/WeSeekFirst)

Thank you for listening to Casper Church's weekly teaching podcast. Our current teaching series is Thessalonians. We are working through 1 & 2 Thessalonians through October and part of November. In week nine our verses were 1 Thessalonians 5:12-28You are invited to our worship gathering on Sundays at 11:00 am.2000 Casper St.Casper, WYThanks for listeningCheck out our webpageCasperchurch.com

In this episode Brook Mesenbrink joins the pod squad to share her amazing journey of being adopted and the love God has shown her through that experience. She vulnerably shares about the struggles and insecurities that God has carried her through- all issues that we can relate to as humans: to feel wanted, validated, and unconditionally chosen. About the Speaker: Brook is a California girl who was adopted into a multiracial physical family as a young child. The feeling of abandonment and disconnectedness typically experienced by adopted children motivated her to search for God and become adopted into a spiritual family when she was twenty years old. In this podcast, Brook shares about her journey of how she healed her brokenness and is able to extend compassion to others through experiencing God's true love. Episode Notes: Psalm 68:5 "Sing to God, sing in praise of his name, extol him who rides on the clouds; rejoice before him—his name is the Lord. A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling. God sets the lonely in families."Ephesians 1:4-5 "..even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."Ephesians 2:19 "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household"God's grace and mercy empowers us to extend that same compassion and understanding to others around us. We all want to feel like we belong to a group of people- especially those who really know us as individuals. Luke 13:34 "How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it!"We can be women of compassion and conviction when we live in the overwhelming love of God and imitate His son, Jesus. Psalm 145:13-19 God is trustworthy! He is faithful to us! He has compassion on usHe disciplines our characters as His beloved children- and His discipline is perfect. Hebrews 12:5-11Acts 17:26-28You, my friend, are chosen, genuinely seen, and unconditionally loved. Support the show (https://tithe.ly/give_new/www/#/tithely/give-one-time/678206?giving_to=Woven%20In%20Truth%20Podcast)

Deep Discipleship: Week 2 Matthew 16:24-28You cannot follow Jesus unless you unfollow yourself.Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

We're recapping the cult classic documentary KING OF KONG with comedian and actor Matt Champagne.KING OF KONG: A FISTFUL OF QUARTERS is the 2007 documentary that introduced the world to the video game rivalry between Billy Mitchell and everyone else. Directed by Seth Gordon, the film follows a down-on-his-luck family man, Steve Wiebe, who’s only solace from unemployment is the 80s arcade game Donkey Kong. On the path to victory there’s palace intrigue with record keepers, questionable videotape, and twists that unspool a decade later. We cover recent news about Billy MItchell’s world record scores for Donkey Kong and other games finally getting stripped away.Matt Champagne has performed at the Improv, Laugh Factory, The Comedy Store, San Francisco Punchline, and the Bridgetown Comedy Festival. He appears with national headliners like Christopher Titus, Tom Rhodes, and Natasha Leggero. You may have seen Matt on TV shows like "Will and Grace," "Angel," "Monk," and "NCIS."You can catch him at Stir Crazy Comedy Club in Phoenix, July 26 - 28You may also enjoy our episode on Man Vs Snake with David Huntsberger, it features Walter Day and Billy Mitchell also.Follow us on:Twitter: @supdocpodcastInstagram: @supdocpodcastFacebook: @supdocpodcastsign up for our mailing listAnd you can show your support to Sup Doc by donating on Patreon.We recommend RadioPublic for listening to Sup Doc and all your podcasts. It helps us out when you listen to at least 3 episodes of our show on their app!