Podcasts about Drama school

Intro: Jen has achieved nirvana: she looks like a serial killer! Farsightedness, migraines, deep work in therapy, all families need case management, Gina navigates an interpersonal conflict in a way that she wouldn't mind if anyone on Twitter read about it. Let Me Run This By You: Is Adam McKay turning into Michael Moore? Don't Look Up, The Big Short,  Interview: We talk to Joel Butler about stage management, Blue Man Group, and the benefits of saying no to the actor's life.

Intro: Boz celebrates an important milestone, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst, when your therapist doesn't talk, when your therapist falls asleep, approach avoidance. Main Course: We don't believe in resolutions, Danish serial killers, The Chestnut Man, skiing, Elizabeth Holmes, The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Sante Fe New Mexico, Heder, control issues, Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, Cobra Kai, reliably good chuckles.

Interview: TikToks about terrible haircuts, Chris Noth, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Jose Canseco, Ringling Bros Clown College, Notre Dame High School, Steve Smith, Oakton Community College, being the youngest clown in the circus, clowning in Japan, Piven Theatre workshop, Auguste clownery, Reduced Shakespeare Company, losing his wife to cancer, Sebastian Maniscalco, Second City, The By Your Side Autism Podcast, Yes And.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Hellbound (Netflix, 2021) by Yeon Sang-ho—the director of Train to Busan. Grace analyzes Hellbound as being allegoric of social media cancel culture and the spread of panic, blame and paranoia. She links Hellbound's plot points to 18th century Christian revivalist tactics that emphasized guilt (sin) and the threat of hell to induce moral panic and keep societies under top-down control. Grace's returning guest is Berlin-based comedian Tobias Hauser (@hahahouser on Instagram) as they celebrate the one year anniversary of K-Drama School podcast. They discuss drinking culture in Korea, the ubiquity of alcohol, how the iPhone can't recognize calloused fingers, how we are the worst critics of ourselves, reflecting on achievements and improvements the past year, caring less about what others think, the questionability of cancel culture, what goals they have for 2022, and chlamydia in the throat. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

It's Sean Gunn! Part Two!

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show The King's Affection (KBS, 2021) and its trans gender queerness, incisive critique of patriarchal greed, as well as Park Eun-bin's robust acting career which dates as far back as 1998, Rowoon's impressive acting chops, and more. Grace's guest is comedian Liam McEneaney (@radioliam on Instagram and Twitter). They discuss New York in the 90s, Mars Bar, Taylor Mead, Bikini Kill, Jim Jarmusch, Sara Driver, Steve Buscemi, The Big Lebowski, the Beatniks, Korean stand-up comedy, the war in the Middle East, inherited and intergenerational trauma among Koreans, the Irish, the Jews and Indigenous Peoples, abuse in the Korean church, sobriety, masculinity, Agnès Varda, and many more. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and FancyLet Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHINGCOMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school2 (12s):Together. We survived it.1 (14s):You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all2 (21s):Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (31s):Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.1 (1m 22s):It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.1 (2m 4s):And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.1 (2m 47s):I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.3 (3m 10s):I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.3 (3m 51s):Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.3 (4m 32s):So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.3 (5m 15s):Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.3 (5m 57s):You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.1 (6m 9s):And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.3 (6m 23s):It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause1 (6m 41s):Your mom left you a spree for, oh3 (6m 43s):My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.3 (7m 23s):I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.3 (8m 6s):City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I can upgrade to a room. You can bid on rooms on the train, right. Cause it's 10 hours or whatever. And I was like, okay, let me, and they took my bid of, you know, $40 or something to upgrade to a room. And that has all the amazing meals included. So two meals, which lunches, if you just paid for it is 25.3 (8m 49s):Dinner is 45. So I got lunch and dinner free. And I just tipped to the, and it was delicious salmon. I mean like this, and I got my own room and I wrote, and I, I like lived, lived my best life on the train1 (9m 5s):Girl. I need to do this, but I don't live in California. I mean, maybe I'll just pick a, maybe I'll pick it east coast version of that.3 (9m 16s):It doesn't matter. Like you could, you can also take it like they have specials. Like there's apparently a really beautiful ride between DC and New York. So1 (9m 29s):Yeah, no. So I also love or have loved the idea of train travel. And I always really wanted to take, there's a, there's a train that goes somehow through the Rockies. That's the one I really want to go on. But the first time I treated myself to a train trip. Oh, that's right. The worst possible3 (9m 53s):You were pregnant. Right.1 (9m 55s):I was the worst possible route to, we went from Chicago to Texas. So there's nothing to look at. The train was disgusting. It was so dirty and I was pregnant. So my, you know, my sense of smell, which is already very heightened was even, was just off the chain. And as a result of being on that train, I developed3 (10m 24s):Vertigo. I'm like, God, I mean,1 (10m 26s):It was coincidental. I never, we never did figure out what the deal was. But I developed a kind of vertigo when I was pregnant, where I had to crawl on the floor because I couldn't, you know, cause I couldn't walk and thankfully knock on wood that has not returned to me. And it also didn't return to my next two pregnancies, but yet it soured me and us on trains. But I think it's just the route we picked. We need to pick3 (10m 57s):It's the route and yeah, definitely don't have, don't be pregnant, but that's not going to happen for you again. So you don't have to worry about that. But like I'm all done with that. And so I had a great trip and I actually had like these huge realizations while I was there about, about working about money, about the entertainment industry, it was really, it was I, and I went with the intention of really looking at what is it that I'm going for in life? I mean, that's such a huge question, but like what, where am I trying to go? And, and the idea of service, right? So I always thought being of service was about other people, but really what it is for me is being of service in the way that I want to be of service is actually for me, like I didn't realize that I feel is good for my mental, physical, and emotional health when I'm being of service in a way that feels not to pleading, but all, but like really energizing and also like a, like thinking about legacy, I've also been thinking about legacy, like what is my, what is going to be my legacy?3 (12m 12s):And it tied into like, I was really, you know, I spend because the holidays are coming up way too much. It will not wait too much, but a lot of money on my nieces and nephew for Christmas gifts, right? Like thousands of dollars, right. Dish, I love giving gifts. It's my jam. But then I realized that like, and you probably, you know, I'd be so interested to hear what you have to say, but having children, but like a lot of this stuff, I got them, they outgrow, they don't care about very soon is cheaply made and is garbagey. And it has a very, very little lasting effect on their lives. And that's just the truth and I'm not judging it.3 (12m 52s):I'm just saying that seemed, that was the data I was picking up. And I'm like, that's literally like just throwing money away after a while year after year. So there's a, let me get smart about this. So we started a trust for each kid where we put that and I said to that shutter dude, I wish someone had done that for my ass. So I said to them, you can choose, we can keep going the way we're doing with gifts for Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Or you can, we can put donate every year and you could literally get very, very, very few gifts. But your huge gift is that each year we put a certain amount of money. And then basically by the time you're 30, you'll be millionaires.3 (13m 36s):I mean, just because of the way money grows, not even because we're putting that much in. And they were like, what? And so miles really educated me and them on the power of, of the investing money in a way that is with the interest and all that shit. And so that's what we're doing. And I, I got to say like, it tied into this idea of legacy and like, I would watch rather have those kiddos like be able to use it. And it's not like one of these things where they have to use it for college because fuck it, man, not everyone goes to goddamn college right away or ever, but they can't touch it until they're a certain age or they can choose to keep it in there and roll it over to another kind of account or whatever.3 (14m 17s):So, but I'm thinking about this shit differently in terms of legacy based on like, what do I want to leave this earth? Like, do I want to, you know, have, have my legacy be that I gave my, my niece to like a fake Dior ring that turned her finger green or right, right. It's fine. But it's so that's how we started it this Christmas. Cause I was like enough, enough, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what you've just given us here in this conversation is like the center of a1 (14m 51s):Bicycle wheel by the goal wheel. And we have a, there's a bunch of spokes there. There's like talking about what's your purpose in life and where are you going? And there's talking about your legacy and then there's talking about consumption. And then there's talking about instant gratification that we give to kids in the form of gifts. And there's talking about that a lot, the pressures that we put on ourselves on Christmas, I mean just suffice it to say, I have been on the sometimes what feels like the circular journey of, you know, from, I mean, you know, when, when I first had kids, when we first had kids, it was really exciting to give the gifts.1 (15m 33s):It was exciting to create a Christmas that I remember from my childhood, the excitement of coming downstairs3 (15m 40s):And magic magic1 (15m 43s):1000%. And, and that sustained me for the period of time that the kids are literally happy to get whatever the minute it turned. And it turned when the oldest one was not that old. Yeah. I'm going to say like seven. Yeah. Yeah. And he, they had a bunch of presents and they opened everything up. And then he said, is that it? Yeah. And I went, oh damn, we're doing this wrong. We're doing it completely wrong. And so we've had a few Christmases and this is one of them where we're not doing gifts, which is to say, there will be stockings, you know, and maybe one little thing, but we're not doing the multiple presents under the trees.1 (16m 31s):We didn't do multiple Eddy presents for Hanukkah because of exactly what you said, toys is five to 15 minutes of joy for a lifetime, literally a lifetime of trash that I then, then it becomes my job to get rid of organized, find a space for a blood body block. And now the kids are pretty much almost all of them at an age where they don't want any of those things anymore. They want money, they want electronics. They want, so we have the way that we save money for them is not in the, for like Christmas, but that's actually a really good idea.1 (17m 12s):And something going to bring up with my husband and says,3 (17m 15s):Yeah, I mean, for those of us, I think it's a great idea. And also it's so much easier, not easy. Well, I don't know for miles and I don't have kids, so it's not in our face all the time. And we moved away from them. It's a different story when you're in under the same roof with being with children, with beings, small beings that, you know, are you so I, I am very aware that we have like the we're the aunt and uncle to different, it's a different deal. But like we just thought, wait a minute.1 (17m 44s):Yeah. And the thing that you're really after when you give a gift or at least I think is the joy that it brings to the person and, and that's great, but like you're saying most of the time, it's a, it's a very fleeting. And also like you don't want to teach kids that this is the way to direct your joy, right? Like from getting things, right. I'm not saying that that's, that's what you're definitely doing. If you give Christmas present, I'm not saying that. But you know, we just live in this very like consumer oriented culture,3 (18m 17s):The kid's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's a system, it's a systemic situation, but it hit me last. When I really, when I really was like, okay, I want to do this differently. It was last Christmas. My youngest niece wanted and got it is not knocking anyone involved, but it was very clear to me that we, it was really stark about what was going on. She wanted a claw machine, a mini Kalama machine from an arcade that literally just had candy in it, candy bars. And you made this loudest noise you've ever heard, took 10 batteries, 10 big ass batteries.3 (19m 7s):And literally there's candy in it. That's killing us all the sugar and look, you know, whatever. That was the least of my worries. But I was like, this is wait, what?1 (19m 16s):That's interesting. That has me3 (19m 20s):Wait. And it was a, probably a really expensive machine. It's not cheap, but that's what she wanted. My sister got it. And look, I'm not knocking anyone involved, but for me, I was like, it was so, so striking about what was going on. Cause it was so loud and obnoxious.1 (19m 39s):Let me ask you this. What do you remember getting for Christmas? Okay.3 (19m 42s):My favorite thing I ever got, this is so crazy in my life when I was a kid kid was okay. Two things I can tell the first gift that I like went Gaga, Google over was something, it was a makeup kit called fresh and fancy. And it had, it had perfumes. It had, and it was probably, you know, 9 99, 99 at Kmart. But like my sister and I each got one and it, what, what it was, was super fun, super adult, super smelled. So good. And I, there is a picture of me opening it up and in, in my I'm saying fresh and fancy.3 (20m 27s):And then I take the picture.1 (20m 30s):Do you have that picture accessible?3 (20m 33s):Yeah, I think so. I can send it, send it, send1 (20m 36s):It. Yeah.3 (20m 38s):I will send that and to fresh and fancy. Okay. That was number one. And then the second gift I remember as an adult getting that was really moving to was my mother who traveled all the time and who I really sort of labeled as a selfish, kind of a human at times gave my sister and I each a ticket, a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world because she had so many miles. But like the fact that she, she thought about us and the fact that her travel, which as a child brought so much grief to me because she was gone all the time that she was then turning it around and giving my sister and I each a plane ticket to anywhere was really moving to me and also was really abundant and felt like that's awesome.3 (21m 25s):You know, is that when you went to Columbia, that's when I went to Prague by myself for a week and a half, which was insane or two weeks, it was crazy, but1 (21m 34s):Oh yeah,3 (21m 37s):It was in, when I lived in LA, it was a long time ago. So, and I, I, I, it just, so I wish I had gone with somebody else. It was the most lonely, it was beautiful and Prague is crazy and, and fun, but I went alone, but that's like really just indicative of where I was at in my LA life. So it doesn't, that's not shocking to me. What about you? Like, what do you remember being like, oh my God,1 (22m 0s):I got to speak and spell. I, I really, I really coveted speak and spell. And for those of you who don't know a speak and spell is just, would be an app now. And it wouldn't be nearly as fun. This was a self-contained. It was like a really thick version, like a three inch thick version, maybe note or two of an iPad. And it was orange and it had a handle built into the top and it would say a word in a computerized voice, like structure, and then you'd have to spell it. And if you got it right, this is the, so this tells you a lot about my psychology, the high, I got that little sound telling me I spelled something, right.1 (22m 43s):I just felt like I could, I was vanquishing Rome. It was, I felt so powerful that I got a bike one year. That was amazing. And I kind of lip gloss that smelled like root beer.3 (22m 57s):Oh, I know that those1 (22m 59s):Are the things that just like off the top of my head. I remember just falling in love with, and, and being, you know, unequivocally joyful, happy with moments. And that's the thing that you're always after, like for yourself or the people that you love, you want to impart this joy. That's what I was going to get you. Like, you want to impart this joy and then there's this tacit thing about like, you better feel joy from this. At least that's what I find myself, you know, evaluate whether or not this person is feeling joy from it, because that's what I want. I want to give them joy of this present. And then I feel sad if it doesn't work out.3 (23m 38s):Yeah. And, and, and, and, and it, it usually doesn't work out like that only because people aren't mind readers people don't, everyone's different. And Joy's so, so personal. And so, so specific to that person. And it's like, it's just such a setup, but it's also, we keep trying and I'm going to still, I still love giving presents, but I now am like, oh, okay. Can't be for me, like the mass quantity of just, yeah. Crap. Like, it really hit me too. Like I bought one year, my niece was really into Shopkins.3 (24m 19s):Remember, oh yeah. I bought like $200 worth of Shopkins for her.1 (24m 23s): lasted for that year. And then she makes, never picked up shots.3 (24m 29s):Not even the whole year, maybe a month.1 (24m 32s):That's the thing, man. They get, and they get, and I, I, I was going to say, this is especially true for girls, but I'm, I'm going to re revise that because the boys did it too. When they love that thing, it's all they care about. It's their whole world. You know, my daughter said to me all, I, the only thing I want you to get me is just tons and tons of puppets. What's a3 (24m 58s):Pocket.1 (24m 59s):A pocket is a PLA silicone flat toy that has these half hemisphere, a half a hemisphere that you put, like you, it's a satisfying sensation to push it in. And then you flip it over and push it the other way. Shit.3 (25m 24s):What's in that what's in the pocket, like a little creatures,1 (25m 28s):Zero, nothing. It's in the shape of whatever you want it to be in the shape of it's a fidget choice. Essentially. I3 (25m 36s):Understand. It's like an ASMR founding,1 (25m 39s):Totally tile. It doesn't make a sound. It's all about it being tactile. Yeah. And, and, you know, go to the stores and they're everywhere. Puppets. You'll see if you start looking for now, you'll see that they're everywhere. And so that's what she wants. And a half of me completely wants to indulge that wish. And the other half of me says, I'll be throwing these all away in six months. And then I'll feel like an asshole because I spent a bunch of money on something that I knew was a fool's errand.3 (26m 10s):Yeah, I'm right. It's like so hard because they believe they really want it.1 (26m 18s):They really, it's3 (26m 18s):Not, it's not a joke. It's not a, it's not a joke. Like that's their jam.1 (26m 24s):Yeah. So this year we're going skiing for Christmas. That's3 (26m 27s):Our part of New Hampshire.1 (26m 29s):We're going to Vermont. And I think I've told everybody on the podcast I do. That's right.3 (26m 35s):You'd like the ski lodge into, right?1 (26m 38s):Yes ma'am. So I go and I get everybody off in the morning to their little activities and it's as, you know, a huge amount of work, then the gear and the schlepping. So I help everybody get to that. And I get back to my little cozy spot and read and write and just hang out that sound. So I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And honestly, that's the thing that people I I'm banking on. Cause this will be the third time we've done a trip instead of presence. And, and these are trips that we still talk about. So I think it is a good investment experiences are a better investment than3 (27m 14s):I absolutely agree. And I feel like that's the trust starting for these kids. It's like, we're gifting them with the experience of maybe like a down payment on a fricking home, a car to get them from here to there a education, like a real thing, like a thing that you need to like live your life versus a fricking fake Cuban Linx chain. I didn't even know what Cuban links were. I didn't know what was happening.1 (27m 42s):I don't know what that3 (27m 42s):Is. What is Cuban links? I oh, those1 (27m 45s):Big, Easy.3 (27m 51s):And it's just ugly. And it's also $6,006,000. What did Jackie about? Oh anyway,1 (27m 59s):I, you, you just did yourself, such a favor. I mean, you did them mostly a favor, but you did yourself such a favor because also the other thing is, you know, I have experienced, I go out shopping and I'm immediately overwhelmed and I'm trying, okay, now this one, I got this,3 (28m 14s):I asked who gets one and did, is it equal? And like,1 (28m 18s):Oh my God, it's just, it's like a, it's a hell3 (28m 33s):I thought we might start out with, I got some feedback on the, okay. So my, on the podcast from, so my, my parents' best friends, Nancy and Dave, they like helped raise me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've really become like second parents. And, you know, they, they hadn't heard the podcast. So they were like, send us an episode. And I said, okay. And you know, it's always tricky because they really know me. They really know my parents. They really know my life in some ways in my childhood. So I was like, well, so I sent them an episode. I sent them the does small ocean Hooga knocker episode because Dave is a therapist and he works with people with addictions.3 (29m 13s):And I thought, oh, that might be interesting. And so the feedback is so interesting. The feedback I got was I'll read it on air because it's good. It's a podcast. Podcasts was good. Felt like a reunion. Sounds like David was deep into self-destruction before he recovered a talented guy was hoping to hear more from you. But that's for selfish reasons. I like how you identified the macro themes in your Roundup at the end. And then I wrote, thank you so much. We're we Gina and I are always aware that like, like, you know, we don't want it just to be us and we don't want to just to be guests.3 (29m 54s):So we're trying to find a mix. So his feedback it's so funny. He liked, he likes to give feedback. You know, if you and Gina are willing to talk about what life experiences brought you to embrace the arts and try and make a decent living, I liked the way you have reconstructed your family life so that you don't have to be an emotional casualty. There's a lot to talk about how you both learn to think from, from psychodynamic and systems orientation. I don't even know what that means. I'm not smart enough. The best stories are the stuff of good soap operas, good screenwriting can teach people how to better understand and navigate within their interpersonal worlds.3 (30m 36s):I'd like to hear another one, if you don't mind the feedback. So Loves our inter you know, he's, he's a therapist, obviously. So he loves that. But it was interesting. I mean, I seriously don't know what half of that means, but like,1 (30m 54s):No, he just means no, he just means like the thing, I mean here, here's this big secret that we've never told anybody, this podcast is not really about theaters. Right. And so what you saying is the, the, the psychodynamic for, you know, background that we have influences and informs our conversation so that we, we think about things dynamic and that's it. And that would be interesting to a therapist. Therapist thinks about things dynamically too. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it there's so much it's, so there's always so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Like, and I, well, the thing I, this ties into the thing that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, which is that when we first started recording a podcast, it was not, I survived theater school.1 (31m 44s):We were calling undeniable, right.3 (31m 46s):That's right.1 (31m 47s):And we had about eight, you know, hour long conversations that were about this concept of being undeniable. So I kind of wanted to clarify for people who may not know why is our company called undeniable? Why is not the website? Because when you told the great story about it, we didn't never air that till we did. So, no, because it was, it was for,3 (32m 20s):We never found and they tried to send to you and then it got1 (32m 23s):No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying like, we recorded those and then we changed our mind about what the3 (32m 29s):Right. Yes. Okay. Yes. That makes sense. Oh, should we tell the story? Yeah. So it's so funny because I wonder if he ever heard this, if he would even remember, you know, it's so funny, like who remembers telling people what? All right. So the story is this. So I, well, first to say that, like you and I were talking about like, what, what is the thing of life? Like, what is again, where I'm at now, which is what are we going after, right. Like, what is the quality of life that I'm going after that you're going after that we're going after as a team. Okay. So it reminded me of this story of I did a solo show and it was called why not me love cancer and Jack White and the woman who was, and it was a solo show basically about cancer and about working for Nick cage and all kinds of things.3 (33m 19s):Just like I surprised theater school is not about theater. School is not really about Jack White, my show, you know, it's whatever. So, okay. So I'm doing this show. And my, the director of my show is this woman named Alison lion. And she happens to be good friends with the comedian and storyteller and actor, Jeff Garlin who I, I didn't know from Adam, like I wasn't a curb, your enthusiasm fan. So I didn't know, but I knew he of him. And I knew he's like a famous guy. Right. So she said, you know, how would you feel about Jeff? Garlin coming to see a dress rehearsal and giving notes. And I was like, oh, sure. Literally being like, oh, a famous person wants to come see my show.3 (34m 0s):That's cool. You know, not like, what can I glean from this artist? You know, just cause that's, that's where my mind went. I would've have been the same. I mean, I just am not mature enough for whatever, so, okay. So I do the, it was, it, it was real nerve and it was an empty house, but him, he and Alison were sitting up there at stage 7 73 on Belmont in Chicago. And so I did the show and whatever, and it was an okay show. I mean, I look, I don't know, but afterwards, if such an interesting story afterwards, he was giving notes to Alison, but not me. And I thought, well, that's weird, but he was really there for her.3 (34m 42s):That was her mentor kind of, you know, her comedy mentor. But then I came out of the house into the house and met and met Jeff and he was lovely. And he said, well, do you want notes? Or somehow it came up like, do I want actor notes? And I was like, of course, which is shocking to me because I never want notes. Right. And I always say, I would love feedback. And by feedback, I mean, compliments, like, that's my . I did say of course, because that's what you say when a fancy person wants to give you notes. And he gave me some great notes, which was stopped swearing so much. And he compared me to Robin Williams, which was amazing.3 (35m 22s):He said, because I could tell he called him by his first name. I do believe he was like, when Robin would swear a lot, I would know that he was, he was, was dying on stage, was off. Yeah. And I was like, that's fascinating or pushing, like I push when I'm swearing. Okay. Great note. I've I've kept that note and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. So then, then I have to tell us, because it's so interesting because I would have done the same thing. So then after he gave notes, which I kind of blacked out some of them, cause it was a lot, but then he, Alison, we're going to go out to eat at clerks on Belmont, but they didn't invite me. Right. And I was like, oh, and then I was in the bathroom and Alison called and she's like, I'm an idiot.3 (36m 5s):I didn't invite you. Do you want to come? And I was like, oh, of course. Yeah. She, and I think what happens is when you're around famous people, you forget, you1 (36m 13s):Lose your census. It's3 (36m 15s):Very weird. It's a weird thing. I think that's what happened for, so we went to Clark's on Belmont and he, we taught he's so what is he? He's he's a generous. No, he's, he's a big personality. So he takes over rooms. Right? So at clerks, he's the center of the show and it is not anything he's doing. It's just, that's how some people are like,1 (36m 42s):He's not trying to lay low. Right. He's3 (36m 45s):Not trying to lay low. And he also loves people I think, and loves human interaction. I mean, from what I know, as we got into this conversation and somehow, and he said, and he said to me, we were talking about acting and we were talking and he said, I'm going to make a movie and you're going to be in it one day. And I said, that's fantastic. I love that. That's great. That sounds great. And then we talked about other stuff and then he said, you know what you are? And I said, what? And he said, you are undeniable. And I was like, what is even happening? And I was like, okay, thanks. Great. He's like, no, no, no. You're undeniable. Like that show is undeniable.3 (37m 26s):And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, well, it just means that like eat exists in its truest form unapologetically. And I'm totally paraphrasing here, of course. But it was like, it exists in its truest form. It's just is you don't have to like it. You don't have to like, you, you don't have to like what you're saying, but there is a quality that cannot be taken away about the show. It's more than unique. It's more than that. It's undeniable. You don't have to like it. You don't have to dislike it, but it, it exists on its own. And it cannot be basically cannot be fucked with in, in, in that way, you know? And I was like, whoa, that is awesome. And that I feel like is what I'm going for in my life.1 (38m 10s):Yeah. And, and when you told the story before you also said that, that he said, you know, be undeniable continue to be undeniable because that, that is ultimately the only thing that lasts in terms of, you know, the industry or whatever. And as long as you're holding true to, you know, your own undeniable truth or whatever, you can, you know, you can't go wrong. It may not mean that you, whatever, get fame and fortune, but, but you'll be doing, you'll be on the right track.3 (38m 40s):You won't be led astray by your undeniable city. Like you, you won't be, it won't be, you won't go in the wrong direction for too long. If you use an deniability as your north star kind of a thing. And it really, and he, he later told Alison, you know, she's, you know, he kept reiterating like she's undeniable, she's undeniable. And he, and Alison had told me, and I, of course, because, you know, I just figure people say that about everybody analysis and no, he does not do that. And also he stands by his word. So you will one day be in a movie with Jeff Garlin and I was like, cool, great. That's fine. But I it's interesting looking back on the story, it's like, I wish everyone is so scared.3 (39m 24s):Like I wish that I would have used those quotes in my press, but Alison didn't want to use them because she felt she was already asking too. We're all, we always feel like we're asking too much. So she felt that she, she was asking too much just having him come to the show and having him give notes was enough and having him. And I remember at the time I had a musician as part of the show, you know, his name is Philip Michael scales. He's amazing. And he was like, we should totally use Garland's quotes to get more people to come to the show and both Alison and I, it's interesting, both Alex and I were like, oh no, no, no, no, like he's done enough.3 (40m 4s):You know, it's just so1 (40m 5s):Like, yeah. Like, and all I'll do to Alison I would've made probably the same choice, but you know, it's like, what are we so afraid of? What skin is it off of his nose? If you say that he said something that he said, you know what I mean? It's not like his reputation is living or dying on your show. It's just,3 (40m 25s):I mean, yeah. I would have done the same thing too. And I1 (40m 30s):That's the mentality that we've talked about so much on here, and it's definitely true for Hollywood entertainment, whatever, but it may also just be true for life that we kind of inherently have this idea that there's a finite pie. Sure. And you know, it's kind of like the people who think that only whatever 7,000 people are going to heaven, you know, what kind of cockamamie thing is that like you believe in heaven, you believe that all of this is God's plan and that people have been alive for millions of years and yet only 7,000 feet. Right. That to me is like a perfect evidence of the way in which we make ourselves and our, and the possibility so much smaller than they need to be.1 (41m 15s):Yes. So you think there's a finite amount of pie and you say, well, I can't take my one, one thousandths of a sliver, you know, that's Jeff Garlin because then there won't be any Jeff Garlin left. Like that's just simply not how it works. It's just simply, you know, anyway, the reason I said generous is because, I mean, you know, whatever, he has a friendship with her, but, but offering the feedback to you and then offering this truth about identifying your and deniability, which I'm guessing was one is one of the things that you carry with you. Okay.3 (41m 53s):Yeah. I mean, I do think, I do think that he's, that that was very generous of him. Like, and, and I do think that he and I do carry it with me and, and it obviously had an effect on me because I tell the story and because, you know, we, that you and I started a whole company around the idea of being undeniable, but like, and yeah, it, it really was like an affirmation, right. To just fucking pick a side already, like, like take a stand, like do something like th th th the gold boldly in one direction, because this sort of, this sort of, wishy-washy trying to please everybody, it, it, it not only does it not, it's not, it's a totally unpleasant, it actually doesn't work for the thing that you think you want.3 (42m 45s):Like, if you want notoriety power, fame, fortune, you have to pick a side at some point. Okay. But if you also want to feel good and be led, like we're saying by your north star, you could, you could use your, and deniability as a north star to eventually mean that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly to get to a place where you really feel like you're doing right by yourself. If you follow your undeniable, whatever that means to you. So, yeah, he changed my life. Like that changed my life. I mean, the show did the sh you know, looking back on the show, I spent so much money. I would say, like, to be, if I'm completely honest, it was like a $25,000 investment I made over from 2012 to 2015 or whatever.3 (43m 31s):And, and I didn't bring in one dime, you know, I didn't make, make a dime, but it was, I would've done things differently, but I still I'm glad I did it. And, and that's one of the reasons stories. And one of the reasons I'm glad I did it was because I learned that lesson about being undeniable from Jeff Garlin. And yeah,1 (43m 55s):I don't think he went to theater school, but he needs to come on the podcast, you know, tell him that and, and, and hear more about his, his thoughts about, and deniability. So, so that you have shared that story with me, which really even moved me. I mean, it's, it's affected me. And then we linked it to this crooked, let's say path that we made, where we were pursuing this creative, creative career. And then we couldn't pursue it because we needed to make money. And we thought it would be okay to do else. And ultimately wasn't. And so the creative urge or whatever is undeniable in us.1 (44m 39s):And we're basically having to listen to it instead of, you know, pushing it away. And, and we also have a belief that many, many, many people are in that exact same position at this age in life, they were pursuing something. It wasn't financially viable. They had to do something else. And that when, what we're talking to a lot of people about these days is I think a lot of people who come on the podcast are reckoning with that question. Whether it be when we ask them to come on or while we're having the conversation or in the time after.1 (45m 21s):And we hear a variety of things from, from, you know, genuine like bridge equipment is a good example of somebody who went and did something else. And I think she found her thing. Yeah. I feel like therapy. She found the right thing for her. Yeah.3 (45m 37s):And she's now taking classes again, though. Acting classes, remember? Cause she wrote us.1 (45m 43s):Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, all right. So maybe, so maybe so maybe everybody, but what, we also talked to, a lot of people who I feel are trying to convince themselves, us, that they have moved on and you know, what, if that's true for you, I don't want to take that away from anybody, but it's hard for me to believe that's true for as many people as say it is true because if you, right, if you just, if you have, if you're born with this desire to express, and then you don't exp and you don't do it, it doesn't go away. And,3 (46m 19s):And here's the kicker too, is like the secret Willie, we can let everybody in a secret that you and I, because of our childhoods. And then on top of the childhood, the training that we received as actors, and then on top of that, the training we received as clinicians, we are able, here's the secret. We can see things in you that you may not be able to see in yourself or that you think you're hiding. Like that is just the secret.1 (46m 45s):And, and I'll say as a person who is fully does this all the time, nobody's hiding anything. I'm sorry to inform you. Nobody, you whoever's walking around. They're saying nobody knows that I, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yes, they do. I mean, they may not say it to you. They may not even have that thought in the front of their mind to everybody does truly know everything. And you're only kidding yourself, right? To, to hide behind, you know, dishonesty,3 (47m 20s):You're kidding yourself that you were hiding it and you're kidding yourself that other people can't see it. And you're kidding yourself that it's working for to hide it. But it's easier said than done to not hide it. I'm not saying coming out, coming clean about your truth is easy at all. But I just want to say like, cause people always ask like, and I, I run up against this a lot in Hollywood of like, how could you tell that? Like, so-and-so really, didn't like this script. I'm like, dude, body language. Blahbity blah, blah. And they're like, I didn't get that.3 (48m 0s):I'm like, dude, you just have to like, I have training. But also you just have to really, I always say this, but like you have to be sort of a neglected child that then decided that people pleasing was the way to freedom. Then learn that that is actually not true. But then use those skills to actually be like an emotional detective for other people. It's a whole process, but you could do it if you spent enough time, but I can tell like I can, I even at coworking, like I'm going to soundproof booth. So no one could hear me. But like I, I spent five minutes with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they hate themselves. They hate themselves a passion they're pretending not to, but they hate themselves.3 (48m 42s):And that is unfortunate because I know they have redeeming qualities. I haven't talked to them for more than five minutes. So I don't know what that is. And I don't want to talk to them for more than five minutes because I'm not their therapist or friend, but I get it. I get it. It is a super power that I think people who really have trauma and then have chosen to work through the trauma. It's a super power that we have that we can, and it's also can be a burden, like any superpower to really see what the fuck is going on with people and call it out if need be. But we don't always call it out because it's not our job.3 (49m 23s):And you know, that is something we run into on this podcast too. It's like, there are times on the podcast where I want to be like, you know, this is just full transparency where I want to be like, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. Totally terrible. You, you, you hate blahbity blah, but you don't want to tell us you hate blabbity, blah. And I understand that because I've been in the same boat and I still am in the same boat, but just know that if you come on this podcast that it kind of behooves you to just tell the truth because what? Yeah. We all see it anyway. Right, right. We just do. We all see it anyway. Yeah. In your voice, we don't even have to look at your face.3 (50m 3s):Here's the other thing about human experience? So people think, I think because it's a podcast and it's not, we don't air the video that like, they can also hide shit. Well, your voice and the, and the PA I mean, I'm giving away all the secrets here, but there are no real secrets. Like the pauses in between watching the next person we have come on is gonna be like, okay, anyway. So I feel really bad about everything in my life. And I put the pauses, the pauses in between questions and answers. It's all part of the deal. And so I just encourage people. Like, I want you to come on this podcast and feel like you can, that you you're able to be undeniable and FYI on deniability does not mean everything is great about you.3 (50m 48s):Right? Like it doesn't mean, it just means that you're telling the truth about who you are. Good, bad, ugly, weird.1 (50m 56s):Yeah. You, you could be an undeniable asshole. There's no, it's a, it doesn't have a necessarily positive connotation, but you know, if you are an asshole and you're, well, that's not a good example. If you are, if you hate yourself, let's say that's a good example. If you hate yourself, you know, you're never going to get to a place where you don't hate yourself by pretending that you don't hate yourself. You have to start with the idea that, okay, here's what I'm up against right now. Hearn's out. I really hate myself. And you know, and I'm going to have to get real about that before I can, because how could you begin to interrogate a problem that you haven't named at all? That's like, that's like, you know, getting, I don't know that to the end of a math problem without having like what the3 (51m 43s):She's learning a new language without studying one minute of the language in your life. It doesn't, it's not possible. I mean, you might get one word. Right. But by luck. But1 (51m 55s):Yeah. And my thing, and I think this is your thing too in life is just encouraging people and the reason, and I understand why people want to lie to themselves about it because it's painful or because you don't want to be a person who hates yourself. You don't want to be a person who feels unfulfilled by career traces. I get that. But, but it's like that, that you are unfulfilled or you are that you just haven't done the work of accepting.3 (52m 23s):Right. And I, and I, I definitely feel like for me, the turning point, literally in my life had to, had to do with, when I had a physical problem with my heart, where I was like, oh, this is what is happening. I haven't taken care of my body for whatever reason. Not because I'm a bad person, but because I've always shit going on and all these issues and hereditary, but I haven't done the work to, to look at this. And so now it's coming, it's now it's, it's, it's a problem. And, and, and when you're laying in the hospitals hooked up to machines and you and people are telling you, it's a problem that are trained specifically in this problem.3 (53m 7s):And you finally are faced with, oh, either I'm going to believe this or not, and acknowledge it or not. And I just was like, okay, I acknowledge it. I need to lose weight. I need to move my body and I need to eat less shitty foods and okay. That's it. It's in my face. It's in my face. It's in my face. I'm the1 (53m 25s):Hospital. Yeah. My, my wish for it to be something other than it isn't has, it helped me to have it be something other than it isn't. But my, my courage, if, if you can summon the courage to face it, then it might actually be different. So the other thing that you were talking about before was legacy, and that is, that has been a theme in my life recently too, because, you know, I realized after my sister died, like it's all over for her. I, you know how a lot of times when people die, then people will go on their Facebook account and like, write these messages to them.1 (54m 16s):You know, I miss you, blah, blah, blah. No, nobody did that on my sister's Facebook page. Nobody and no, nobody and her kids, you know, who are too young, really to use Facebook there that's because it's an old person's thing, but they have Facebook accounts and they had each written something about their mom when she died. And periodically, I checked back in to see like, what the comments are at for first of all, I don't know, 95% of the people who were making the comments, cause I haven't been in their lives, but it really ended like a few, you know, a few days after she died, it ended.1 (54m 58s):And I just thought, wow, man, there's just no trace of this first. God, I don't like that. There's yeah. It's it's really unsettling. And so recently we came in to possession of unpublished manuscript that Aaron's grandfather wrote on which sirens grandfather, his dad's dad. Okay. Aaron's grandfather was a, you know, hardcore Chicago in, he was a tool and die maker. He worked in one of these factories where whenever there was factories in Chicago and he retired when he was 70, 70 or 75 and went back and went to college and he was the oldest graduate from Roosevelt university where I teach by the way weird.1 (55m 58s):Yeah. And he was a writer and a poet and he wrote a book. Now, dear listeners, I regret to inform you. It's not a great book. You know, he could have used an editor. I'm sure. And, but it doesn't matter. The point is we receive this cream and a half of paper that's wrapped up in like a grocery bag and bound with string and it hasn't been touched3 (56m 34s):How'd you get it? How'd you get it?1 (56m 37s):His mom had it. And she sent him a bunch of stuff in that, and that was in there. So we opened it up and, and I thought to myself, okay, this is fascinating because one of the things that I think compels people to write is a desire to leave some kind of an imprint. And I'm curious how other people think or don't think or feel, or don't feel about their legacy. I mean, I guess people do it in other ways you get really rich and you name a building after yourself or by the way, they took the Sackler name off the mat. Finally they took the Sackler name off the met. Yes. And oh God.1 (57m 18s):Yes. That's a whole other thing. Watch dope. Sick with John who can aprons really good. Yeah. Anyway, people do use philanthropy. I mean, it kind of seems like, unless you're in the arts or rich, how do you have a legacy? What's your, what is,3 (57m 33s):This is a great freaking question. Like this is the question that I really been thinking about in my brain. And I, I think I have the answer for me, but I'm not exactly sure. So, all right. So I love to teach, but I love to teach a very specific population. It's a population that is underrepresented in colleges. So I I'm trying to narrow down like what I want to do with my life basically. And I think I want, I know I want to be a writer, but I was like, okay. But my realtor says I have to make 80 to a hundred thousand dollars if I want a house in California.3 (58m 17s):Okay. And I'm tired of sitting around, waiting for Hollywood to discover me. Okay. Fine. And us. So what do I do? Okay, fine. So then I've been teaching right at Roosevelt and other places and I love it. I love the 1819 year olds. Okay. Fine. I love teaching acting. I don't know. I feel like I don't really know shit about acting, but I know I do when it's mixed with psychology. Does that make sense? Okay.1 (58m 44s):A hundred percent then the other3 (58m 45s):Day I was like, and then I was like, okay, but I don't want to teach at a fancy conservatory. Like I don't, that's just, I just don't. So I was like, all right. All right. All right. So then someone sent me a listing to teach a community college, making a $90,000 a year. Community colleges paid better than a lot of colleges. And so I'm applying to teach first year actors at a community college in Glendale. And I don't know, and I don't know, and I actually think it's going to make my writing. And I think it's going to make me hustle in a different way. I don't know if I'll get the job, but I gotta say my legacy might be, cause I thought, okay.3 (59m 30s):At first I thought my legacy was going to be, and we could track it with the podcast. Right. Like I thought my legacy was going to be famous actor even though like, I don't know if that's, that is a legacy like Brando and you know, that's a legacy. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, that'll be my legacy. I'll be fancy, famous lady. Okay, fine. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, my legacy is going to be that I'm a very sort of famous PR prolific addictions counselor, like at a social service agency. Yeah. That's going to be my legacy, but that's what I thought, like, that's my mark. That's where I'm going to leave my mark. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to be again, a famous actor, but maybe a solo artist. Right.3 (1h 0m 10s):And, and then, and then a screenwriter and I'll get really famous as a television writer, which still could happen. But I was like, I'm not sure that is the flavor of legacy that we're talking. I'm talking about here in terms of service, right. Service. What I want is to teach, I could teach 18, 19 year olds tangible skills that they can use then and move on in their lives and then teach their kids. Like, like that seems more in alignment with what I'm talking about in terms of legacy than just fancy screenwriter.3 (1h 0m 50s):That makes a lot of money. So, yeah.1 (1h 0m 53s):Yeah, because actually I was just having this thought yesterday, if I was ever given an award that was related in any way to theater, the first person I would think is my junior high acting teacher and teachers truly do leave some of the biggest, like good and bad. Some of the biggest legacies. I remember every single teacher I've ever had. Yeah. And w I mean, I mostly remember the ones who were really good or really bad, but they, I can think of five people off the top of my head who should be canonized as saints, because really Mrs. McDaniels, you were a prima ballerina who ended up teaching math in junior high.1 (1h 1m 37s):And you know what she did, she knew that I had just a, I was having a really hard time in junior high. And she invited me to eat lunch in her classroom every day, because I think she was at a Mexican, she didn't eat. And so she could go over the math with me cause I was having a hard time getting it. And I was just having a hard time. Sure. In general, this is seventh grade. And she provided all under the guise of teaching me math. Of course she gave me mentorship. She gave me attention. She showed me love.1 (1h 2m 19s):Right. Like what's3 (1h 2m 20s):What more could you ask for legacy I'm looking for? I'm not, I decided like, especially during COVID times, I've really been thinking, I think a lot of us have about like, what is obviously important, but also what is lasting and what is, and I thought, yeah. Okay. So, so I don't have a desire to like go into the classroom and teach, you know, I don't wanna teach psychology. I don't want to teach, but I was like maybe. And the thing that like the community colleges in California in Southern California, like I believe Pasadena city college and Glendale community college are two of the best community colleges in the country. So I'm like, okay.3 (1h 3m 0s):And it's cheap to go there. And it's a bunch of different kinds of learners and it's not just white kids that are like, I'm fucking going to be the next, I don't know whoever it's like kids that actually want to learn. And I, I mean, look, there's going to be some real assholes in there. I know it. But like I thought, oh, okay. Like also I really, really need a house with a yard. And I don't know how, I don't want to do it by, by getting an office job that I'm gonna die at. And I, and I, and then try to write on top of that.3 (1h 3m 45s):So like, I really need more space. And we were looking at houses and this all really was, was sparked by talking to a realtor, a really great realtor who also was like a very therapeutic and his approach. And he was like, listen, do you want a house in California? Yes. Okay. Do you want a two bedroom, two bath? Yes. This is how much money you each need to bring in a year. And this is how much your down payment is going to be act accordingly. He just told me that like, it's not,1 (1h 4m 16s):It's not a mystery. It's not an unknowable path. It's just like, no, no, no.3 (1h 4m 22s):It's very clear. And he was very loving, but he was also like, you, you piecemealing the piecemealing, your salary together is not going to work for this. And I was like, and I, I needed him to say that too, to know that like, it's time for me to bring in a decent amount of money. Now, if it comes, if it, if, if, if somehow it comes from your mind getting a television show or our documentary taking off. Great. But like, in the meantime, I need to feel like I am, I am not just piecemealing my shit together.1 (1h 5m 8s):Right. Because in addition to all the other things we've mentioned, you have a lot other needs that are undeniable and it is much your responsibility to meet those needs your, your need to have, you know, your own space. You need to have address, you know, that's as important to listen to as anything else.3 (1h 5m 27s):I had no idea. Like I just thought it's interesting. I, I thought that I did not have those needs. Like I thought, who cares where you live literally. I mean, I've moved 15 times. So it's like, who cares if you live in a one bedroom with two people and a dog, I care. I care a lot now I really care. And it's really, really important to me to be out. So having an outside space,1 (1h 5m 55s):And what I hear in this for you is a shift from what does it look like to other people to, what does it feel like inside of me? And it was always more important,3 (1h 6m 8s):More important. And it's also super interesting. And I think we run up against this all the time. People think that they're like, oh, you're not going to be an actor anymore. Like you're not going to audition anymore. And I'm like, I don't think so. It's not like it's like I had the other night. I had the experience. So I get off the train right at eight o'clock the day before I got an audition from my agent for self-tape for a show in Chicago, that's a procedural show, you know, and that everyone auditions for in Chicago. And I got a self-tape quick turnaround. I had to get off and I chose to, I got off the train, dropped my stuff, picked up.3 (1h 6m 50s):My friend came to coworking and was up til midnight filming this scene. It's not a good scene. I'm not good. I'm not good in the scene because I don't, I'm, I'm not, I was having trouble memorizing because it's late at night. And then, and then I turned to my friend and I just said, you know, and, and I'm not paid, obviously we're not paid for the audition. If I book it, I have to go to Chicago on my own dime, stay in a hotel on my own, or place my own plane fare. I hate to fly to do this thing. That's going to terrorize me on set for a day to make $900.3 (1h 7m 32s):What the fuck am I doing? So I turned to my friend and I just said, who was nice enough to stay up with me till midnight, taping this in the fucking coworking space. I turned to her and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she said, okay. And she said, okay. I mean, she doesn't give a shit. She's a writer. She's not an actor. She doesn't, but she's like, okay. And I was like, yeah, this is no, no, no, it's not. That is not my legacy.1 (1h 8m 0s):Right.3 (1h 8m 1s):So it's very clear. So now I'm going to, I'm just, I'm not, I'm having calling my agents1 (1h 8m 8s):And you can't know until, you know, I mean, like that reality couldn't hit you until it did. I'm like, no, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, part of life is figuring out what it's not, and as much as it is figuring out what it is. Yeah. So4 (1h 8m 34s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you. 

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show I'm Sorry, I Love You (KBS, 2004). Grace's guest is Orange County-based comedian Viet Nguyen (@vietspeekenglizh on Instagram). They talk about District 12 in Vietnam, comedy, writing fiction, and the rules of improv. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.2 (36s):It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,1 (41s):But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.2 (46s):Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And1 (1m 0s):Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?2 (1m 5s):The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,1 (1m 14s):It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.2 (1m 18s):Yeah. What's the for you.1 (1m 19s):Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.2 (1m 56s):Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,1 (1m 60s):When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?2 (2m 32s):Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,1 (2m 42s):Yeah,2 (2m 43s):It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.1 (2m 55s):It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.1 (3m 35s):But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?1 (4m 18s):I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?1 (5m 1s):What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?1 (5m 45s):And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.1 (6m 29s):The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,2 (6m 37s):Wow. Oh,1 (6m 38s):Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.1 (7m 19s):It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,2 (7m 28s):That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.2 (8m 10s):I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.1 (8m 32s):Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.1 (9m 15s):Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.1 (9m 57s):I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.1 (10m 40s):And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?2 (11m 4s):Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.1 (11m 10s):What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?2 (11m 17s):Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.2 (12m 0s):And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.2 (12m 43s):Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.2 (13m 26s):Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,1 (13m 32s):No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like2 (14m 12s):You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.1 (14m 16s):There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.1 (15m 2s):And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.2 (15m 20s):Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.2 (16m 1s):I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether1 (16m 10s):I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.1 (16m 54s):And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.1 (17m 34s):So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this2 (17m 42s):And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.1 (17m 52s):You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.1 (18m 32s):You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.2 (19m 0s):Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.2 (19m 43s):And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.2 (20m 24s):The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.2 (21m 5s):There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that1 (21m 23s):More, or no, you just left it at that.2 (21m 29s):Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So1 (21m 46s):Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.2 (21m 54s):Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,1 (21m 60s):Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.1 (22m 53s):And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take2 (23m 17s):Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think1 (23m 20s):Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.2 (23m 25s):Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.1 (23m 41s):So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.1 (24m 33s):Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. that's the truth.2 (24m 42s):Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.1 (25m 3s):Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean2 (25m 44s):That they're not1 (25m 45s):At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.2 (26m 17s):If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.1 (26m 22s):It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.2 (26m 47s):Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,1 (27m 7s):Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,2 (27m 36s):Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another1 (27m 46s):It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.2 (28m 7s):Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.1 (28m 11s):I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago2 (28m 33s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.0 (29m 1s):Well,2 (29m 22s):Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads1 (29m 33s):And theater. I started out in biology.2 (29m 37s):Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get4 (29m 41s):My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.2 (30m 5s):Much more fun than actually being4 (30m 7s):A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,2 (30m 13s):But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.4 (30m 21s):Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.4 (31m 9s):So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?4 (31m 55s):We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.4 (32m 48s):She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.2 (33m 29s):That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or4 (33m 46s):Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.5 (34m 23s):That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.4 (34m 48s):Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.4 (35m 30s):And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.4 (36m 10s):So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,2 (36m 38s):Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?4 (36m 59s):Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,5 (37m 23s):Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old4 (37m 27s):Were you? I was 19.5 (37m 30s):Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?4 (37m 33s):I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,5 (37m 55s):I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.4 (38m 29s):Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.2 (38m 60s):Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or4 (39m 9s):So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.4 (39m 49s):So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great5 (40m 13s):Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how4 (40m 33s):Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.2 (41m 13s):Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help4 (41m 30s):You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.2 (41m 52s):It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious4 (42m 2s):Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but5 (42m 25s):Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.5 (43m 8s):And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?4 (43m 16s):I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.4 (43m 58s):And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So2 (44m 8s):That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're4 (44m 11s):Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.2 (44m 14s):So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?4 (44m 29s):It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.4 (45m 9s):And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.4 (45m 54s):So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.4 (46m 37s):And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.4 (47m 19s):And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.5 (47m 35s):It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.4 (48m 19s):Yeah. Yeah. It's5 (48m 22s):That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.4 (48m 29s):I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.4 (49m 12s):You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.4 (50m 0s):And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?5 (50m 15s):And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,4 (50m 20s):I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not5 (50m 53s):That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and4 (51m 29s):It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch2 (51m 40s):Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.4 (51m 45s):Okay. Not in my experience.2 (51m 49s):So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.4 (51m 59s):I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.4 (52m 42s):And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.5 (53m 11s):What a relief.4 (53m 12s):Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was5 (53m 25s):So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical4 (53m 30s):Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?5 (53m 37s):My God.2 (53m 38s):Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.2 (54m 18s):You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.4 (54m 29s):Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and5 (54m 50s):You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?4 (55m 8s):Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.4 (55m 48s):Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.4 (56m 28s):I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.4 (57m 17s):They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.4 (58m 3s):They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.4 (58m 43s):And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.4 (59m 24s):So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then5 (59m 31s):How did you do it? Did you get help?4 (59m 34s):Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,5 (1h 0m 8s):Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.5 (1h 0m 51s):Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?4 (1h 0m 60s):So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.4 (1h 1m 48s):It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.4 (1h 2m 33s):Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.4 (1h 3m 16s):Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,2 (1h 3m 40s):Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?4 (1h 4m 8s):I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.4 (1h 4m 49s):So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.2 (1h 5m 11s):God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.2 (1h 5m 53s):No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.5 (1h 5m 57s):And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.5 (1h 6m 41s):Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?4 (1h 6m 56s):Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.4 (1h 7m 37s):But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.4 (1h 8m 37s):And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.4 (1h 9m 16s):You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.4 (1h 9m 58s):And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.2 (1h 10m 3s):So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.2 (1h 10m 55s):And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been4 (1h 11m 21s):True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.4 (1h 12m 10s):They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.4 (1h 12m 58s):And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.4 (1h 13m 46s):And he fell, right. You know, they fall

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Because This Is My First Life (tvN, 2017) and topics like the 880,000 won generation, urban-modernism versus traditionalism, marriage, real estate, inflation and more. Grace's guest is LA-based comedian and actress Susan Song (@sujjang012 on Instagram). Susan is trained in improv at The Groundlings and UCB. She appeared on Jimmy Kimmel Live, Fox's 9-1-1 and TruTV's Adam Ruins Everything. Grace and Susan discuss acting, crying on cue, comedy, perfectionism, quarantining in Korea for 2 weeks, meeting Jung Kwan sunim, being present, financial trauma, and living the dream. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University,  Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington,  Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it. So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean? Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion, Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually, Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down? Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything. Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him and then he ended up not finishing the program. So I was actually the first lighting master's lighting student since they had left the Goodman. Speaker 1 (3m 19s): Great. Speaker 2 (3m 20s): Yeah. And I had, so I'd been working in Houston doing an internship and Kevin Rigdon, who was the, at the time the resident designer at Steppenwolf had come down and did a show production of our town, which ultimately became a very important part of my life, my adult life in my own career. And so he came down and did our town with Jose Cantero directing. There was this huge thing. And I thought Kevin was great. I thought he was funny. And I loved his work and I was really interested in it. And he was adjunct at the theater school. And he actually told me not to, he was like, don't come I'm adjuncts. And they're just starting this master's program. You kind of want to find a place that's that's has more stuff going on. And then when I decided to apply to grad school the next year, for sure, I was looking at different places and somebody gave me the advice that you should really look at the people who design the team, the design work of the people that you're going to study with, because that's what they're going to teach you. Right. Great, Speaker 1 (4m 17s): Great advice. Speaker 2 (4m 18s): It was, it was really great advice. And the other was to look at the market, right? Like look for a market that you would want to be in. Like, you can get an amazing degree in Idaho. There's actually really good programs there, but the market's not there. And I'll tell ya. I did not realize until I was a college professor. This is so like blind of like the blindness to your privilege. Right. I did not understand the benefits I had in Chicago from going to school in Chicago until I watched my students graduating into it. That's when I realized what I could do for them. And I realized what my professors did for me. Speaker 1 (4m 54s): So interesting. I mean, I think, I think we don't, we don't ever, I don't know anyone that's really hipped. Maybe kids nowadays are young adults are really hip to it, but like, yeah. I mean, I didn't think of thinking of like, okay, well what, what is the sort of the place where I'm landing and who are my connections there? But I am learning now at 46 in Los Angeles that the people that I'm really connected to here in the industry are all from Chicago. Mostly a lot of them are from the theater school. It's crazy. Speaker 2 (5m 25s): It's so interesting. I, it's funny. I've been listening to your podcasts and what I love is like, I feel like it's the best Facebook ever. It's like, so, cause I'm like, oh, listen to all these hour long interviews with people, all due respect to someone who might forgotten existed. Right. You know, like I tumbled down the whole like conversation about the religion. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot all about that. I knew I knew those people. Right. It's just not my life anymore. Right. Speaker 1 (5m 49s): I mean, I I'm. Yeah. I'm also shocked. Like we have people on that, like remember us that I have no recollection of having with. And I think I always talked it up to excessive drinking and dirt back in my day. But like, I think it's just like, that's not our life anymore. Right. We're in a different time, different lifetimes. Speaker 2 (6m 10s): I took it. There's like three levels of people there's like from school. It's like the people that I still know and have to remind myself, I went to school with like, that's the connection. I there's the people that I, that I have no idea what happened to, so I love when they're on your podcast and then there's the people who are famous. So I think that I know what they're doing. Like I have a feeling, I feel like I know what Judy is up to, but I don't know what she's up to. I just know, Speaker 1 (6m 33s): Right. That she works all the time. Then we went to school with her. Right, right. It's so funny. It's, it's a such a wild thing. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to go, Speaker 2 (6m 42s): I'm going to go to grad school. And I looked at Chicago, I looked at DePaul because I really liked Kevin. And then I also looked, I was looking really heavily at Carnegie Mellon and, and he went to, I went to one of those. It's funny. I listen to you guys talk about it with the actors. But I went to one of those, like Roundup audition, interview things in Houston. And I interviewed with both schools at the same time. And Carnegie Mellon was like, well, we've been teaching this class for 20 years. It's a great class. And we've been doing this other thing for 20 years and it's awesome. And I was like, oh my God, you're so boring. And the program is actually massive and huge and revitalized now. But I think at that moment in time, it was just not, they were had a lot of faculty had been there. And then I went to the DePaul one and I talked to John Bridges. I was like, I offer you Chicago. Like I offer you the energy of John Bridges and Chicago. And I was like, oh, this is so much more interesting to me. Yeah. You know? And then I got lucky because what I didn't know is that John Colbert is like, I call him the Clark Kent of lighting design, because he seems super mild-mannered. And he's like Superman, that guy is a genius And a master teacher. And so the fact that I got to study with him for three years and the part of it was him creating curriculum that he felt I needed, even when, and I have these moments with my students now where I'm like, this is what you need to do. And they're like, I don't think that's what I think I would do better. I think this is what I need to study. And John would be like, yeah, you need that other thing. You know, I actually, years after school, a couple of years later, I applied for a, there was a, it's funny, it's funded by the NDA. So you can't call it a, it can't be a grant or fellowship. It just has to be like a program that you're on. But it was one where the theater communications group got money from the NDA and young, like early career designers and directors to observe, assist other artists because you can't make anything. If it's the NDA. Right. It's like the rules that came out of all this stuff in the nineties. Right. And John called me up and was like, you need to apply for that. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally applied for that. I was thinking next year. Right. Like you need to apply this year. And I was like, well, yeah, but see, here's the reason and this and that thing. And he was like this year and I was like, but really I was like, you know, this next year. And I was like, this year, this year I'll do it this year. And then I got it. Speaker 1 (9m 4s): Was it amazing? It Speaker 2 (9m 5s): Was, it's an interesting thing. It was amazing in some ways. And in some ways it like slows your career down because you have to do six months worth of work within two years and you for the money and you get paid as you go, but you don't get to make anything. So it can like become a thing where you're like getting to know these amazing people and working with these amazing people. But you also, can't Speaker 1 (9m 28s): Interesting Speaker 2 (9m 29s): And make it, you know, like it slows down like what you can do as your own artist. I will say though, that, as I'm saying these words, even I'm thinking about the people that I worked with and how they function in my life and how important they'd been, like how important some of them still are Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Still in your life. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9m 45s): They gave me an extension on it as well, because that was also the time that I, I was the associate designer on the first production of top dog underdog. And that was a show that they were actually TCG was trying to get somebody in that room. And they were being like, well, we don't really want somebody to observe us. And I got offered to work on it, but I had worked with the whole team before, so they wouldn't let me do it, but they let me extend it. So they were pretty generous about like, yeah, I'll be making things happen. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And I got into DePaul and so I came to DePaul, I came up and visited and it was, Speaker 1 (10m 16s): And you, you, did you work with, was there, were you working with someone, a lighting designer at DePaul named Keith? Speaker 2 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when somebody talks about him, I don't know if it was you or Gina talking about him. We'll talk about seeing the scout, the Macbeth that we did that I did with Stacy Cabalero who I, who was my best friend from grad school. Oh yeah. When I think about grad school, like Shawna Flannigan and I were roommates for years after, but, but Stacy and I were super close. We did. So we did like so many of our shows together there and he was talking, it was it, you that he was telling that he commented on the costume. Gina was sitting next to him, but she was talking about it. She was like, and Keith param. And he was like, he was looking at it. He was like, oh my God. And I was like, I literally was listening to the podcast like, oh God, did he say something about my lights? What did he say? What did he say? Then? Then it was about Stacy. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. One of my close friends still. Speaker 1 (11m 14s): So yeah, he was the first person that made me really interested in lighting. And he, when we closed the show, the yellow boat together, he gave me a print of his drawing of the lighting, like, oh wow. With lighting. And I still got it framed. And it was, I was like, oh, well this kind, because I think personally that as actors, we're, we, we have this thing of like, our ego is like crossed all the time. So then we, we have, we have an inflated sense of ego really that we have to build. And we think that acting is the most important thing. And it was the first time it, my land that's garbage. And the first thing to person to really say, to show me like, oh my gosh, look, this is all part of a huge deal. Like I am not the huge deal that lighting is, everything has its place. And then we come together, but I was like, oh, this is, this is an art that really ties the whole show together. Like really? And it's like unsung magic. And I think a lot of actors anyway, just think that the lights up here and that nobody is behind them being the artist, creating that at least young actors, Speaker 2 (12m 30s): Young ones. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think you're right about that in school, it's often Speaker 1 (12m 35s): Lighting for you. Like, what is it, what was it about that? Speaker 2 (12m 39s): You know, it's funny, my mother at one point was like having this big guilt thing that she had never encouraged me into it when I was younger. But like all of the signs did, like, unless you knew this was a thing, it didn't make sense. I was, I loved theater. My grandmother studied theater in New York in the thirties and she taught college. Yeah. She'd studied with a bunch of amazing people. She didn't work professionally, but, but she would take us to theater. Right. So it was a huge influence for my mother then for me. And I loved being an audience member. I never wanted to be on stage. And I haven't been a couple of times. And also now that I'm like, in my fifties, it's so much easier. Like I'm much more willing to jump off the right off the cliff and try whatever. Cause why not? What is it gonna embarrass me right now, please, please. If I didn't embarrass myself to death in my twenties, I think we're good now. You're good. So, yeah, but I, I, I just always like things that related. So I, like, I was interested in photography at one point, but I loved reading. I loved going to the theater. I have this, I was terrible in high school. It trig. I like, oh, I got like, I barely got through trigonometry class. And the second semester of the math track I was on was like analytical or spacial geometry. And it was like, I was a savant. I was like, that's what that 3d grid looks like. I can see that thing in space and I could answer, am I my teacher? And I were both like, what is up? How do I know this really have a good sense of space? And so if you look at the combo of all those things, they all really go together into lighting design. If you, if you know that thing. So when I went to undergrad, I'm in San Antonio at this small college Trinity university, super liberal artsy, sort of the opposite of your, your, what do we call them? We call academic classes and academics. I feel like we did, but they definitely, yeah. Academics. I really was. I had a lot of intense like philosophy classes and religion classes, all super helpful for the career that I have. But I also, my first semester took a intro to theater class and I loved the lighting. And then the second semester we were, I had to register dead last, like first year, dead last, you can't get anything. And a friend of mine that was in my end theater class was like, well, I'm going to, she was going to be a high school drama teacher, her name's Emily Goodpasture. And she decided that she was going to end. So Gilbert and good pasture registering last. She was like, I'm taking this sledding class. Cause I know I have to take all of the design classes and the acting classes for my future career as a drama teacher. And I think she take this learning class with me and I did. And then throughout college I would do other things, but I kept coming back to lighting. I just, I love the magic of the way light reveals form. I love looking at tons of different kinds of light bulbs. You know, my friend wants me to come to become Tik TOK famous and support us by telling people how to light their homes. Speaker 1 (15m 32s): Well, here's the thing that I, I actually, when you just said that, I have to say like, I was like, oh, I wonder what she thinks about filters and add tic-tac and the way people use light and could do you look at photos and videos and things and say, oh, that would be so much better if you just lit it like this. Are you able to do do that? Speaker 2 (15m 53s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely, yeah. Most things in my life revolve around, you know, I always laugh cause I still go in theaters and look up at the lights and people are like, oh, I saw you looking at the lights. And I'm like, do you look at the actors? Of course, I look at the lights, I'm trying to figure out like the craft of what they did or you know, or what the equipment that they got to work with was, and yeah, but I can't, even though I could probably find another career with lighting that is so much more lucrative and I'm sure that that is true, right? The best part of my job for me still is that everyday when I go to work in theater, actors tell stories in front of me on stage live. And that is my favorite thing. I love going to plays. I love seeing performance and I love it live. So the fact that I get to be connected to that in some way and another character in that for me is really awesome. Speaker 1 (16m 39s): That's fantastic. And I I've never thought about it that way, that like, I mean, obviously I've thought about that a little, that the lighting is another character, but again, it's like, there are, there is a human and maybe a team of humans behind that character and that it, that you enjoy hearing the live stories being told. And that's why the theater versus, you know, film and TV, right? Like it's not, I mean, I guess you could still, it could be live on set, but like, you wouldn't be like the designer of a show. I don't even know how it works in television and film. Like the lighting people. Is there a lighting designer behind film and TV? Speaker 2 (17m 21s): There are no. And because there's so many more people on a film, I, and or television, there's more people encompass the single jobs that we do in theater, the DP it'd be the DP and the gray and then the interest and then editing is also a part of what we do. So, so all of those things sort of come together in that way. It's funny, David Swayze, do you remember Dan Swayze? He, so he's in film now and he's doing super well. Yeah. He's an art director and film and, and we have not kept up. We keep up actually better than I do with a lot of people, but it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, even with the pandemic, it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, he was talking one time about what he loved about doing television or film, he specifically film. And the thing that he loves about it is that it's, it's so immediate and you can make changes. So like, you can say like, oh, we need to, we, instead of doing it this way, we think this would look better and you can actively do that thing, which in theater set designers can't do that. But the rest of us can, I was like, you're talking about lightening design. I can make the change in the instant. You know, sometimes I have to say, I have to hang a light for tomorrow, but sometimes I can do like, hang on. My moving light will do that for us. Right. This second, you know? So I get to, I get to, it's funny though, we were like super technical or technological. And then all of a sudden it was like projections and sound, which were, you know, a slide projector and a yes. And you know, MiniDisc jumped us and they can craft in the room and we still can't craft in the room in the same way that they can, which I'm actually kind of grateful for. I like that. We get to say like, we're going to think on that. We're gonna let us Speaker 1 (18m 60s): Oh, wait. And think on that. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Cause I, I, yeah, I liked the idea too of you're you're like a problem solver. Oh Speaker 2 (19m 13s): Yes. Right. Speaker 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. I love problem solvers. I think that they're really great to have in a room because I think it teaches everybody that like there are mysteries to be solved in the theater. And there are people that are trained to solve them that aren't me and they, and that we can work together. But problem solvers, we need the problem-solvers in, in rooms, in the theater. Like it's fantastic. Speaker 2 (19m 46s): But you know, it's interesting. We solve different problems, problems. Like I was years ago, we have this event on the last day of the semester, second semester at Columbia called manifest, which is this massive arts festival. It spills onto the streets. We have puppet show puppet, parades down the street. And we have, it's really fantastic. Photography has like gallery exhibits, super fun. This school is crazy. And I love it. And years ago it poured down rain and they had had this thing that they were going to do. This is pretty so long ago that I think it was 2009, actually it poured down rain. And they'd had this event that they were going to do called manna text. And they were going to, people could submit their phone numbers and they would text and be like, go to this stage. And you'll, if you're the 10th person there you'll get a thing. And texting was still like, we, it, wasn't certainly not the, the way we lived our lives. Right, Speaker 1 (20m 39s): Right. Speaker 2 (20m 41s): Yes. It poured down. And as soon as it pours, like we had an outdoor stage and I always, I, I produced it for the department. I thank God. I don't have to anymore. But I, I had, I always kept the stage free inside so that if anything happened, we could move it in. So we moved everything in and we didn't have lights up in the theater. And I, so I walked downstairs and I started hanging some lights and doing some things and I was working with, oh, this is funny. I was working with Kendra Thulin oh yeah. He was working with me on that because Kendra and I worked together again, somebody, I almost forget I went to school with. And so I started hanging the lights and everything and she's just staring, like she can't do it. And my kids walked in, my students walked in and I was like, okay, here's what I need you to do to finish this up, do this, do this, do this, hang that, get these gels. These from the sides, this from the front, I'll see you guys. They were like, great. And Kendra and I walked out to do something. And she was like, that was amazing. And I was like, it's what we know how to do. And then five hours later Manitex has fallen apart. They can't figure out what to do. And I'm standing there. I've got these two seasoned subscriptions to the department, which I'm pretty sure were free anyway, back then. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with these? And I turned there, we're doing a musical theater thing. And I turned to a couple of minutes, you'll theater students. And I was like, get these to an audience member. Somehow they went on stage and made this hilarious, adorable competition. That was like a trivia thing, like trivia about musical theater. Right. And they gave them to the winner. And I was like, we all, I, my students would have turned to the human next to them and been like, do you have these, you know, that's why we're all together. That's why Columbia administration is constantly like, you're you have too many majors in your department. It's so unwieldy. And it's like, because it takes a lot of people to create an entire world. Speaker 1 (22m 26s): It really does. That is really true. And everybody solves different problems. Like nobody that does it does. It does take a bunch of people. That's really interesting. And then when you graduated, what did you do? Like, were you like, I mean, really your career kind of took off. I mean, you're co you're pretty fancy lighting cider. So how did you, did you just like, love it and people loved you and you started getting jobs or like how did it work? Speaker 2 (22m 55s): Yeah. There was a couple of stages in it. I, you know, it's funny. I did the big funk and what's hilarious about that to me is that when we did it, I was like, where are we? We are in the front end of someone's apartment. It is bizarre. These people live here in the back of this place and they're letting us do a play in the front and like flash forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I am friends with those people. Amazing. I did some moment in conversation. I was like, that was your place that I did that weird shit show with the weird lights in the cans. Like, so I started doing storefront and I S I had started assisting at Steppenwolf while I was at school. So I had, I, at the time that I was in school, I had a foot in both bootcamps. And so it is, I definitely, yeah, I definitely was splitting my time. And so I started doing more assisting it's definite wall. And in the fall, he'll never hear this the fall, right after graduation, I assisted somebody who sort of well known to be difficult business of lighting side. And for whatever reason, we absolutely hit it off. And he is like my brother today. And so I started traveling with him. I started working on projects all over with him and because he was difficult, theater companies would bring me to projects that they wouldn't necessarily bring an assistant on normally, because he's really, he's like the best in the business, but they knew I could handle him. And they knew that I could handle him by saying, I need you to leave the theater right now. And I'll take care of things while you sit her down. And so we, I would go to, I went to New York with him starting in 1998. I assisted actually my second Broadway assisting job was with him. My first one was from Steppenwolf. So I simultaneously was with Steppenwolf and him. And so my assistant career was like really amping up. And I was in these important rooms like Suzan-Lori parks and George Wolfrey top dog underdog with at the time the first production was Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright. And then those staff replaced Jeffrey or repost on. And so I was getting to do a lot of those really awesome things. And simultaneously I was doing storefront, right. And, and honing my skills and building my skills and knowing how, like I could watch the people that assisted make these massive shows with so much stuff. And I would think about those ideas. It's exactly what they tell you to do in school. But yeah. And then I would go back to the storefront with 17 lights and some candles, and I could make something that was really interesting because I had a much stronger sense of how equipment worked. You know, Keith always says that his graduate school was assisting per the years that he did. And he particularly assisted this amazing designer named Jim Ingles. And he's like, that was my grad school because I learned how to use our tools and then how to pull back from them. Speaker 1 (25m 35s): And how did you get, I think for people listening, they're going to be, well, how, how did she get to assist at step it, well, how did she get in the room at Steppenwolf? Speaker 2 (25m 44s): It was that guy, Kevin, the one that was my, you know, he taught us, but he, I, he knew I came up here and I reached out and I was like, I really, I want to have, you know, I, I want to work with you. I want to learn from you. And he, it's funny because now he's in Houston. I met him, but he is, he was great. And my second year, because the guy I came in with dropped the program, my second and third year, I was all alone. Like my classes were by myself. And so what John would often do was put me in a class with someone else. So that, like, there was a, for some reason, the third year BFA lighting class in my second year only had one wedding student. So we paired for the class in the class time, we had somebody to sort of like riff on and talk to, and our levels were different. But a lot of the projects that we did, like we spent one full quarter just in the light lab, which we usually, most semester, most years we did just making projects. And like, here's a song like the song by next week, here's a musical theater song. You you're lighting it as if it's musical theater, somebody on there, like something has to represent the chorus, visually something has to represent, how do you, how do you actually change the song as if it's a stage? And we have like little blocks of wood and like little people and things that we would put up and make these vignettes. And so she and I were just sort of at different levels on that, but Kevin was the teacher and it was, I actually had a one-on-one with him. And he said at the beginning of the year, he was like, I just want your, your resume is going to look good when you finish this class. And that was crazily enough. It was the 20th anniversary of Stephan wall. So I was the second assistant on very child. Gosh, that to Gary Sinise director, I worked on every man that Frank Lottie directed, I worked on the Libertine, how much was in. I did, I was an assistant second assistant on all of those shows. And then by the fourth show of that season, I ended up the first assistant who, who stayed with him for a while, but was sort of grooming me to be the next step. And that's how that sort of works sometimes is like we, our assistants move up and become our full peers. And then we train somebody else up in that way. And I, by the fourth show, I was actually getting paid while I was doing it for credit and stuff at school. So I think in those days I wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it today. They would be like, what, what? Speaker 1 (27m 56s): Right. But then you were like, yeah. Speaker 2 (27m 58s): So they didn't know. Right. Speaker 1 (28m 0s): They weren't keeping track of that is so cool. Speaker 2 (28m 3s): So I got to do that. Speaker 1 (28m 4s): Yeah. And then, and then did you, did you, what was the journey like to, did you live in New York? Like, did you live in New York, ever full time? Speaker 2 (28m 13s): Not full time. I spent a lot of time crashing on David Swayze's spare, like his studio floor. I did a lot of that for many years and, and other friends, new Yorkers are particularly skilled in the art of letting you stay with them. And so now, I mean, I joke that I'm the Heather Gilbert school for wayward or Heather Gilbert home for wayward Chicagoans, because I there's so many people who move out of Chicago and come back to do a show and I let them, I let them live in my spare room. My friend, Samantha, who's this brilliant costume designer. I mean, for like two and a half years, we were like, she was like my, my roommate. She came and went, I have somebody coming on the Saturday after Thanksgiving while she does a show, you know? Cause I feel like I'm giving back for all those times that I crashed in New York. So I did a fair amount of assisting and stuff there. I've only, I guess I've only designed about three times there actually. One of them was pretty significant. So yes. Speaker 1 (29m 9s): Talk about that. Let's talk about that. How did that come about? What, what, yeah. That journey of life. Speaker 2 (29m 17s): Yeah. My other job in grad school was I was bartender. I, yeah. I used to bartend at a place called bar San Miguel up on Clark street. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a non-equity bar. And I started bartending there after, I guess, had our second year. It's funny during that huge heat wave of 95, I went there for the first time with Chris Freeburg and Kate McKernan. Yes. Half a year later I was working there and, and Cromer used to come in there cause it was a theater bar and I met him there. And so our relationship started 26 years ago. Holy shit. Speaker 1 (29m 48s): As tender in a patron. Speaker 2 (29m 50s): Yeah. That's how we met. That's amazing. Yeah. He loves that. I think he loves it. That's part of our origin story because it's funny when we, when he tells it and writes it like in a letter of recommendation or whatever, and, and we didn't work together until 2003, but we've known each other. At one point we quit smoking at the same time. And at one point that was like the most significant thing. And then all of these things that we've done have happened since, but now I'm also still thinking that maybe the most significant thing that we ever did together was quit smoking. That's fantastic. Speaker 1 (30m 18s): It's very significant. And it also, you did it together and it's a real bonding experience when you quit. Something like that. Speaker 2 (30m 26s): Yeah. It was tough. It's been, it's been, it's been 19 years this year. Congratulations. So we started then, and that was the moment also that like I did a show with him finally, and we did this miracle on 34th street that we all were super in need of money at Christmas time. And he wrote this adaptation and it started Tracy Letts, which we think is like the funniest thing in the world now. And so we did that show and then when I started, and then I started teaching shortly thereafter and I started, I did, and I went to LSU for two years in Baton Rouge. And when I came back because I loved teaching students, they're the best thing in the world. Higher education can make you want to pull your hair out. And state schools are often really like that if you're in the arts. So it was a struggle, but I came back here to Columbia, which I had only vaguely known of when we were in school. And that's, I didn't know that everybody who got cut came here until I was teaching here. And then it was funny because when I would, I don't remember when the cuts system stopped, but whatever point it did was after I started here, because you would be doing like the summer sort of advising with incoming students, you do your, your couple of sessions in the summer and kids would come in and their credits would be this really weird number. And I was like, I don't understand why that's not three credits, but it was like two points, 1.3 threes and 2.3 twos. And it was sort of like thirds, but not even HOAs. And I, and I found out that was, that was the sign of somebody who was cut from the theater school because it was the theater school classes that were those year long things, trying to get them into semesters. Right, right. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that's what happened to everybody who quit. And so, so, but David talkier and so we, we start teaching a collaboration class together, all really. I didn't know, that's cool for directors and designers. And so then we were going to do a show here at school together, but he, and we started the process and we were like, live, we got to live what we teach them. We got to, we got it. We got to collaborate like that. And we had to pull out of the show because he took adding machine to New York instead. And then he came home from adding machine. And that's when he had been talking about our town that he was going to do with the hypocrites, which was, I worked a lot with the artistic director of the hypocrites I had. I had a long relationship. I, I mean, he's still my friend, he's just second grader, John grainy, Sean and I, Sean was simultaneously, the two of them were sort of like my biggest income and my income through them. And so I, so, but I wasn't a part of the hypocrites. I was eventually, I was not at that point. Right. And he, he kept talking to the show, but he had to ask the resonance designer, but the resident designer who's my sweet friend now said no. And they brought me on to our town and you know, it's sort of like, the rest is history. Like we, David and I have a long history at that point and we have a, we had a friendship, you know, but we now, you know, we had like the let's let's, you know, talk on the phone and watch Dexter in the middle of the night friendship a little bit before that. But we now have done, I think I, I counted when we opened bug last week and I think we've talked 16 shows together and, and some of them have been really life-changing for both of us. So yeah, Speaker 1 (33m 37s): That is fantastic. And I feel like if you find a collaborator that just I'm recently have, have started working with someone that I just, I work with Gina, and then I work with other people, but like when you find someone like that, where you, you just, it just works out. Like it just works. There's something about it. The only thing you can think of is like, you know, it is some sort of, it almost feels like some kind of cosmic thing that comes together that you are able to do. Great. You can facilitate each other's great work without ending the relationship and having crazy, you know, fights and things that don't lead to total destruction. That's magic. Speaker 2 (34m 24s): Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting cause directors go, I think they probably do this to actors too. If they have a deep relationship more than anything, they go stuff's right there. Like they just stopped calling and you're like, come on. Right. And Cobra, at one point it was in New York and working with new people and our town had come to a close. Right. Which, cause that sort of kept us together for a long time. We did that show that was over over seven year period of time, all the venues. And so we, we had, you know, we'd, we'd, we'd had a connection and we had done other couple of other new shoot new shows within that time. Yeah, sure. It wasn't just our town. Right. And then we'd done our streetcar that was really successful. And the Sam Rockwell was in really isn't that crazy. I did a person who was Sam Rockwell, who was so lovely. I came up and was like, oh my God, the lighting is so beautiful. I was like, oh, so I will be heard in it. So how do you know? But, Speaker 1 (35m 17s): But he, but even to say it, you know, like what a sweetheart? Yeah. I was at a wedding with him cause he was in a movie with my boss and he was lovely, a lovely and like a pro like a real, Speaker 2 (35m 31s): So I get so excited for him now all the time. So, but we had healed David actually sort of like wasn't calling. And I was like, oh, are we not going to work together anymore? And it's funny because I think in the history of our lives, it will, it's actually a blip, but it felt like a long time. And I was like, okay, well I guess that's okay. Like relationships do shift and, and partnerships do add, nobody wants to somebody forever. Absolutely. But I was like, I actually, we are, I am, you know, I was not a Columbia kid. I'm like, I have a pocket in a thousand ways. But yeah, I did work. I do teach at Columbia and I am a Sheldon Patinkin person. I'm one of his people and Sheldon taught you, you see each other's shows. That is what we do for each other. Right. I was like, I'm going to still see your shows. Right. We have way too much of a history for our friendship to die because we're not, we're not doing right. Right. So I kept, I stayed around. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm going to come to me. I'm going to see your things. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go see the band's visit or I'm going to go also, I get to see the bands visit then come on. Right. Or I'm going to see your comeback, little Sheba with Derek  in Boston because I love that. You know? And so when the time rolled around, I found out he was doing a production of next to normal at writers theater. And I loved that show and I had done a production of it that I kept texting him, being like, oh my God, I wish I were doing your production of this. Not that I didn't think that one was great, but it was much more of the sort of flash and trash version. Right. And I wanted to see David's version where there's like a dining room table and people around it. Right. You know? And I just, I was, so I texted him as soon as I heard from our friend Lilianne was like, I will do the show. And he woke up the next morning and he was like, he texted me back. I was like, it was kind of a non David text. I was like, this is very specific and kind, and I he's listing these things, but he was like, these are the, I woke up this morning and I saw your text. And I called Michael Halberstam, who was still the artistic director at the time. And so we have to hire Heather for the show and he said, okay, but we already hired Keith. And I was like, yeah, I fucking knew it. I knew I was going to be too late. I'm reading this text. And David's like, and I screwed up. And these are the reasons why, and he was like, writer's theaters are theater. It's our place. Which just so you know, he'd just done as many shows with Keith as he has with me. But he went through and he was like gave me their reasons that were really lovely. And then he said, Williamstown is going to reach out about a show, Adam rap's new play. And I was like, Williamstown really paid nothing. Why is that my constellation prize? I was totally annoyed. And then Williamston production was a struggle. Like we did this by the way, the play is the sound inside because we have not said the name of it if anybody's listening. And we, so we were, it was a struggle, you know, you have to do it very quickly. It's a big play for, for the, the lead actress in it and the actress in it. And, and it was a struggle for her. She, she definitely was acting out a little bit. Yeah, sure. And, and so, and you don't have much time and you're doing it with people who are, you know, these interns that I it's sort of famously a conversation in the industry right now about specifically how William sound carries those interns. So you're feeling guilty and also they don't know what they're doing as well. So there's a lot of pressure on that. Right. And I loved it. I loved that place so much. I read that play and I was like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's this beautiful play about what we do when we were in need in our loneliness. And it's just, it's ju it just hit me. I don't know how Adam Rapp, who's this like hyper alpha masculine male actually has that insight into, I think, because it's insight into humanity and thus, he can change it into he's like, well, women feel the same thing men do. We're right. We're not different creatures. Right. So, yeah. Wow. And then, and then the show moved to New York a year later to Broadway to studio 54, which my God, I got to crawl around in studio 54. It took me crawl over that building. I was like, she'll be everything. Where did they keep the drugs? I'm so cute. Right. Right. Yeah. And we, I went up into the there's a dome and I got to go up into the dome and look down into the space and see where they store all the lights. And I got the full tour one day. It's great. The crew is the best crew in the entire world. And we did this beautiful play and people were, you know, it's funny. I, I actually was just, I submitted an application last night at 11:58 PM for full professorship. Like that's the highest level of, of teaching here. Yeah. And when you get tenure, you have to apply for that. But then once you've got it, you actually don't have to apply for anything, a promotion past that. Yeah. So I finally had committed to doing it. And so it's funny, I've been thinking so much about my philosophy of lighting and the way I approach it. But one of the things is that there's that old saw the best line design is lighting. The can't be seen, which is just a load of crap anywhere like Eddie in any scenario, like just say like you and I can't see the light where we are right now. Right. We see it. We know it's there. What they really mean is if I change, if I break the rules of the reality that I set up for you and notice that that's bad lighting design. Right, right. It's like, it's, I was compared to like, weirdly as a lighting professor, I had Meisner in this paper that I was writing yesterday. This document is writing. Cause it's like, it's that idea of living truthfully in imaginary circumstances. It's the same thing for us. We're creating those circumstances and we're trying to make it so that the actors can live in truth and everything has it. And if the rules are light comes out of the floor. Right. And it changes when I take a step, as long as I, as long as we create those rules for the audience. Right. And, and train them, they know what it is and then they follow it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 6s): We'll go with you. It's consistency. It's authenticity. It's telling the truth in the moment and yeah. Staying true to what the vision is, whatever that vision is. But yeah, it also reminds me of like the good lighting is shouldn't be noticed or whatever is like, women should be seen and not heard. It's totally like fuck off. Speaker 2 (41m 28s): So I was talking about something about myself too, and I almost was talking about leadership and I almost said, you know, because I was called bossy as a child, and now we acknowledge that. That just meant I was a leader. Speaker 1 (41m 37s): Yeah. Right. It just meant that. And you know, it's interesting because my recollection of you in college was that you knew what the hell you were doing now. Granted, I mean, everyone has different, you know, I'm sure you didn't always know what you're doing. Cause you're a human being. But like my recollection of you is that you were like, I think maybe because also you were a grad student, right. So, but you definitely had vision. You were someone that I was like, oh, they know what they're doing and, and why they're doing it. So there was this thing about you that I really felt from the little, I knew that like you had motivation or like a, a direction and also a curiosity, but, and a, I just, I just think you were like very early on like a master of your craft, which meant that also masters in my view, like really study and take the shit seriously and have a lot of pride in their work. That was it. Like not a lot of people had a pro. I mean, I can speak for myself. Like it wasn't like, I, I felt like you could stand behind your work. I've always felt that like, when I read stuff about, about you or like when I follow your career, it's like you stand by your work. That's fucking phenomenal, you know? Speaker 2 (42m 55s): Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of that was also the training that we were getting in the, in the design program because we had, we had such good professors, particularly John, we, we, we had Franco Lovecchio was there for two years. Right. Who was the most wonderful, crazy human in the entire world. He would like, literally, like you'd be drawing in the studio and you'd be like drawing on something. And we all learned that you had to keep tracing paper over a culture, which is something called trace really. But we would, we would have trace taped to our drawing boards so that the minute he sat down, you could throw a trace over it. Or he would just start drawing all over you drawing. And, but he would like nudge you off your chair while he was like, fixing your time for you. And you'd tell him, be standing there watching him doing your work. And you were like, maybe, maybe not, maybe, maybe I'm in school. Maybe I want to learn how to do that. He was so funny though. So great. But then John Colbert has, is like really like taught us like the, that you have to be able to justify the work that you have to understand the rules of the piece that you and the rigor that goes behind that. And Nancy Beulah, who's the same. Who was just this amazing. She's the, she used to let, she used to let you do your project again, to get your grade up a little bit. And I would get like a B plus on something for her and I would do it again. And it wasn't even that I really needed. Like, I wasn't great. I wanted her to think I was working. Like I needed her to have that belief in Speaker 1 (44m 15s): G she, there was something. So she costumed me and said she just, she was so affirming. And also like you, there was something about she, she made me believe that she knew that I was going to be okay and that I was going to be a professional and that I could do it. Like there was, it was amazing. It was so much, there was like a strong confidence that she instilled in me as a costume person, which I, I just felt, again, she stood behind her work too. Like she was a bad-ass like, there was no like, ah, apologizing, there was no apologizing. And I feel like we just spent so much of our lives or at least I have apologizing that when I see someone like a career like yours, I'm like, oh, maybe this comes from not apologized. Like maybe not apologizing for, for us as women as in our work, you know, like this is badass work I'm doing and I'm going to continue to do it. I dunno. It's just a fierceness. Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Well, for me too, I feel like the thing that I'm proudest of in my, in my age and in my success is that I no longer feel like the pressure of having to be complete on the first day of tech. Like, I'm like, I'm going to put an incomplete, that thing up there, and I'm going to start to see how light is moving on these people and what that does. And I know it might not look good, but I'm not going to worry about that. It's going to be okay. You know, I'm going to be able to, I know I will make it look great. I know I can. I know that what I put up there for the first draft is going to be the right first draft, because I know what I'm doing and I know that it doesn't have to be complete. Right. And I'm fine with that. And like, David is really great for that because he has no expectations of that either. Speaker 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's like really the difference between being product oriented and process oriented, right? Yeah. As an artist. And like, for me as a writer, like writing for TV, my first draft, if it's not, it's, it's terrible. And it's exactly where it's supposed to be. But if I have expectations or get in my own way and feel self-conscious about it, the whole thing is it doesn't work. So it's like, this is a shitty first draft. And by shitty, I mean, wonderful. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (46m 32s): So wonderful first draft, right? It's never supposed to be the final thing. Totally. We were also taught at school that because we don't stick around for the product, right. We're not part of the product. We, I mean, we are, we're making a product, right. Because we're not ever, once the product goes, our AR is there, we're gone from it that we need to be really process-oriented. And that our process is what's going to get us hired aspect of working with us. Speaker 1 (46m 59s): I love that. And I feel like if we could, if we, I wish I would have learned that more and I'm not, I don't blame anyone for it. I just think it's the way the life is. But like, I'm, that's what I think I've spent my adult career as an artist becoming more process oriented and less product oriented and less and less judgy, right. About my and other people's process of, of like, it doesn't look the same. And so I think when you find a collaborator, which it sounds like David, what is for you that is also, and in the same sort of thought process in terms of how art is created, that's what works, because you're both sound like you're like no expectations for the first thing to be the thing. Like it changes it pivots, it moves, it's moving, it's breathing and moving. And I think that that's probably why your work together is so powerful and profound is that you both have this view life view right. Of art that works together really well. Right. So, and that sounds fine when I find those people. Those are the people I want to stay with and work with. Yeah. Speaker 2 (48m 7s): Yeah. And I think too, like one of the things getting back to sound inside and David, is that like, I, the thing that people often comment on is my use of darkness on stage that I actually commit fully to it, that I don't have a problem having actress speak from the dark. And I did the first time I ever had something that was really dark. I was like, oh God, like, you know, you're taught that, that can't be funny. Right. People actually laugh at things that here in the dark, it turns out. And so, but so being able to like be tiny and focused and just have a little bit of light, you know, and sound inside became that piece, which was like, we created the premise of the play is that this professor is telling the, talking to the audience and we don't really know what that's about. Like, I don't know. And I don't know the answer to that because I almost felt like knowing, like we don't want the audience to fully know. And I felt like if I know too much, then I, it may manifest. And so I never, even though Adam rap became, I tell him that he's the brother. I didn't get no offense to the brother. I did get, but I love Adam and I can ask him anything and talk to him about anything. But I have never asked him the truth of the play, which is, is it happening? Is it my meal? There's a character that we question is the character even real? Is she writing a book as she talks to the audience, this character, a Bella college professor, or is she, or there's a reference to a book at the end of the play that you like? Did she steal that book? And a lot of that was taken, there were a lot more concrete parts of the story when we did it Williamstown and they were taken out for the Broadway production to let the audience sort of float in their own uncertainty more. And so the idea is that Bella, this character who, who is this professor is actually the only fully fleshed out part of the play at the beginning. And that we slowly revealed the world as she creates it as she sort of illustrating it. And so that actually gave me the ability to have this production that was like using little amounts of light, a lot of darkness. Like I like, but also was in a way flashy, because we'd have like a big window on the side, on the wall of the sets. And then all of a sudden it would shift like instantly into a different time of day. And the shape of the window would change in the color of the window would change, but it was all very graphic. And then eventually within these like sequence of scenes in this office with this window, eventually the final one was this massive projection of a very real window. So, and so I got to work and I worked really closely with the production designer, who was the handsomest person in design. His name is Aaron Ryan. If you ever meet him, you're going to be like, I didn't know that designers looked like that. I thought only actors did. Wow. And he's the best dude in the land. I love him so much. Speaker 1 (50m 33s): So, so I guess yeah. Being mindful of your time, I just want to ask you if you, because we do have a lot of younger folks that listen to the show and that are interested in careers as designers, not just after, you know, now there's like such a, we're trying also to shine a light on designers. Cause it's awesome. Right. We don't, I mean, acting is not the only name of the game here. So what would you say if someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm interested in the theater. What does, what w what kind of person do I, it's kind of a hard question, but what kind of person do I need to be, to be a designer? I know if I'm a designer, Heather, Speaker 2 (51m 26s): I actually am really conscious of like the personality quirks of designers, because I watch it so much in my students. Right. And it's interesting because I am, I can't make a, I can not build a model. I cannot build a model. I, it was hated in school and it, but it's this really sort of detailed private work. And I'm a much, I'm super extroverted, which that doesn't mean all lighting designer extroverted, but like, I have to be able to work out here. Like I don't work here. I have to be able to work openly. I also have to work in public. Everybody is there when actors and designers have that rare thing in which actors and lighting designers, I should say, we, all of our work is done in front of other people. You cannot, like, you might have a smaller room and only a couple people at first, but like, it's still the same and we don't get to make it privately. And then somebody builds it and we go, oh, paint it that way. Or even like, listen to in our headphones. No, you have to be okay with that. You have to be really good with like a super high level of pressure. And you have to let it roll off of you. I worked, I love Sean Graney. This will not surprise anybody who knew Shawn grainy or losing his Shaun could be very difficult in a tech. I'm not the easiest dude, always in the world, but I love him to death. And there was an actor that we used to work with who just would Marvel. We worked with this person so many times and was a big part of the company. And with Marvel, it, me, because Sean would get tense and it'd be like really stressful and like pushing, pushing to get it done faster. And I would just let it all roll off. And it's because I have to be able to do that and know that this is my time. Right. Reclaiming my time. I was like, oh yeah, I do that all the time because I know that this is when I can do the thing. I also have to know when I can say, Hey, you know what? I can do this later. I can do this without people, or it's taking too long and it's slowing us down and it's, it's killing our process. It's not letting us all move forward as a group. And I'll deal with this thing later. Right. But I also know that I have to do it now. And that's the way this process works until somebody changes it, I'm going to do it in the room. And so I will take my time. I have to be able to work as quickly as I can in that. And I have to know that I have to deal with the pressures from other people. Speaker 1 (53m 27s): So it's got a little bit of, it's interesting. It's a it's human relationships that makes with time management mixed with reclaiming your time mixed with knowing when to, yeah. When you can let go and say, okay, I'm going to do, but like, I, I don't think people, at least I'll speak for myself. Younger people think that you need, well, the ones I encounter my students too, like, you need people skills as a designer. Oh, you need people skills. Like, just because you're not an actor doesn't mean you don't, you know, you got to work with people. And I think your, from your interview, it's really clear that like, there's all different kinds of people you're going to work with, and you're not going to get along with all of them, but you can also figure out a way, right. To still have the process, be one of where you get your work done, get rehired. If that's what you want and still be a kind human and work, you know, in the industry. And I think that's really interesting that you, the rolling off the back. Yeah. Because people in tech and in tech and intense situations get bonkers bomb, bonkers, bonkers Speaker 2 (54m 30s): Years ago, I was assisting on a production of the Scottish play in New York that George Wolf was directing that Angela Bassett and Alec Baldwin were starring in and the pressure and the pressure on it was super high. And then everybody who was a secondary person was like, we have Schreiber and Michael Hall and Zach brown. Speaker 1 (54m 48s): I mean, it was our secondary Speaker 2 (54m 50s): People. Cause they were babies that like Zach rabbit just finished school. Like let's start on it. And we, and the pressure was super high. And, and we were on the third floor of the building and the electric shop was in the basement. And my designer was like yelling at me and I would pass it on. I would pass that energy on. And the assistant lighting supervisor took me out for pizza and was like, you can't do that. And he was like, you have to be the wall. And if you can't be the wall, this might not be your job. He's like, you can still be a designer, but assisting might not be the way you got there. And this guy must've been, I mean, he was maybe my age. He was probably younger than me. His name was Todd greatest thing that ever happened to me. Yep. It changed me forever. I was like, you're right. That is my job. And actually, I'm very good at that. I am a cheerleader and I'm a person who cares about people and I have no problem. I mean, there will be times that I'm not trying to say, I'm never put pressure on the people around me. I get impatient too. I'm not a patient person, but, but I can, I can try to protect the people around me. And I, and I love my team that people who make the lighting thing happen, you know, I kept, I, we won the, I did this production bug with David right before the pandemic. And then we just did it again unless we could set them off. And we won the Jeff award for it. As I like to say, we won the Jeff award. Like my team won that award. I didn't do it by myself, but I actually took it into the first day of tech and we put it on the tech table for the second round. And I was like, everybody had my crew put a light on it and they would run the light up. And it was like, everybody may give me notes through the Jeff. The Jeff looks up notes for me. That's hilarious. I will speak to none of you. I will speak to Carrie Coon, Carrie Coon also want to Jeff that she may speak directly to me because what else do you do with an award? There's so weird there, Speaker 1 (56m 30s): Right there, weirdness. And they're weird and they're nice and they're in your effort. And it's the only way we have really, as human acknowledged this stuff, but in a, in a sort of ceremony kind of a way, but like, all right, well, I just thank you for talking Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Absolutely Speaker 1 (56m 47s): Pleasing. And I, I, you know, I just, I'm always left when I talk to someone like you I'm like left with this wish for young women to know that there are so many jobs and careers in the theater that you don't just have to be an actor or an actress or whatever you want to call yourself. There are so many things. And, and by, and for me also, it's like, oh my gosh, please find someone that's doing the thing you might want to do and ask them questions and see if you can get information, you know, like an informational interview, which is essentially what we do on this podcast is do an informational interview with people we went to school with and other people, but like get the information. So thank you for putting the information about your career and your journey out there for us. And we'll, we'll keep in touch and you'll get a copy to review before we air it. And, but just, thank you. Thank you so much. Speaker 2 (57m 45s): Totally. I'll send you guys some pictures I have to please. And, you know, they're printed. I actually had to go into a box and found Speaker 1 (57m 51s): Them. It's a whole thing. Speaker 2 (57m 53s): Yeah. Much like everybody else. I went through all of those during the pandemic. So I was trying to figure if I had one with me and Keith, cause that would be awesome. Speaker 1 (57m 60s): That would be fine. Speaker 2 (58m 3s): It's funny. I love telling people in the, in the lighting community that like I drove her, we've been friends for so long. I drove him home from college for Christmas, his first year of college, you know, and then, and now he's like, like he did his first runway show at studio 54. And then I did my first Broadway show in studio 54. And like, yeah, I really love getting to share all of that with him. And he's a true and great artist. And I just, S

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Reply 1994 (tvN, 2013) as an impactful 1990s nostalgic text, Seo Taiji and Boys, Korea's 90s moral panic, the history of banana milk and Melona, Reply 1994's homophobia, and others. Grace's guest is Dr. Todd Kushigemachi. Grace and Todd discuss the importance of labor unions and strikes among lecturers/adjuncts, the cancel-fear that gen-Z lives under, a teacher's responsibility around self-care, Wes Anderson movies, Fight Club, systemic injustice, and more. Los Angeles comedian Nick Borsellino (@nickwithnothingbetter2do on Instagram) answers Grace's flashcard questions based on Reply 1994. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more. This episode is dedicated to beloved Los Angeles/Valley comedian Jonathan David who we lost on Dec. 1, 2021 just a few days before his birthday--Dec. 5. Rest in peace, Jon. We love you and miss you.

Bercerita Tentang drakor ongoing schools series yang agak berbeda dengan series - series school sebelumnya. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bujoko/support

Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be directLet Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD? Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program,  Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yogaFULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.1 (55s):I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.1 (1m 47s):I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?1 (2m 28s):So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.1 (3m 8s):But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?2 (3m 36s):Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind1 (3m 39s):Of invest?2 (3m 40s):$7 and 50 cents.1 (3m 42s):What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then2 (3m 51s):If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,1 (3m 54s):Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.1 (4m 38s):And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise2 (5m 7s):You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,1 (5m 48s):Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.2 (6m 7s):Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like1 (6m 11s):Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,2 (6m 39s):No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.1 (7m 12s):It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I wanted to call him Dr. Craig. And he was like, no, that is not my name. And, and I was like, this guy is such a douche, but really he was setting a boundary saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not your friend. I'm actually not your dad. I'm not your, this isn't, we're working. We're doing serious work here. And it's either Craig or Dr. Pierce, but you can't. And at the time I was like 21 or something. I don't know what I was, but I thought what a douche, but now I'm like, oh, he actually was, was trying to help me.2 (8m 1s):Let's just get this out of the way. This is how I expect to be referred to this is how much I expect to be paid. My thing about coaches recently is I feel like everybody is doing this group delusion about, like, we can't go to therapy. So we have to say, I mean, we could pay more for a coach than we might for a therapist. We could be more revealing with a coach that we were therapists. It's just turned into the stigma of like, well, I don't want to go to therapy, but you know, I want to have a coach. And the problem with that is it's so wildly unregulated.1 (8m 34s):Yes,2 (8m 34s):Exactly. If anybody can call themselves a coach,1 (8m 37s):Right. And even this, this coach that I saw was like, yeah, it's wild Lynn regulated. And I understand that, you know, so, so there are some, you know, weird coaches and she's lovely and she's trying to make a living. The other thing that is so clear to me is everyone is trying to make a living. So there is right. Everyone's trying, I give them points for trying, like you she's trying to have a coaching business. So, so right. I don't fault her for it, but I did. I was like, so shocked that the language, I was like, oh, here we go. She's going to say the exact thing that this other coach said. So, duh, there's all kinds of like classes that for free structure that could the coaches taste.1 (9m 24s):Are you going to see her again? I mean, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no. I told her, I was like, you know, I'm just really not in a position to do coaching right now. And I'm not, I have a therapy. I have a new therapist. Let me just pay the therapist who told me what our fee was. So it was interesting. The other thing that I think was interesting is like I took, the reason I met this coach was I took a workshop on a free workshop on imposter syndrome, which is another like thing that people are really throwing around now is imposter syndrome. And self-sabotage those kinds of phrases. So I took an imposter syndrome workshop, lovely workshop. And then they said, you know, we're going to have a raffle and see who gets a free coaching session.1 (10m 5s):Well, we all, did. We all won the RAF. I mean,2 (10m 14s):Oh my God. I mean, is everything a play Like a performance piece in Los Angeles?1 (10m 24s):Yeah, it is. It is. And it's so, it's so funny, but like, so yeah, I was talking to my friend, I'm like, who went to the workshop? I'm like, oh, I won the I wasn't coaching says, she goes, so did I? And then I talked to someone else who I met when I networked with like soda. I was like,2 (10m 40s):I really respect how much it seems like people in LA are devoted to self-improvement. I really, really respect that in a way that I just feel like people out here aren't or if they are, they don't talk about it. Maybe it's what it is. But it does seem, it does seem like people in LA are either they're on a health kick or a mental health kick or they're, you know, getting sober or I just feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of1 (11m 5s):Types here.2 (11m 8s):And I appreciate the fact that everybody talks about that openly. Because if, if people are into that stuff around here, they don't talk about it. So I ended up feeling like, you know, I'm a weirdo.1 (11m 19s):I feel like it's like, like literally like old money versus new money. I swear to God it's like old, old paradigms versus new paradigms. And like, yeah, it's out in the open here, everyone's on some kick, but at the same time, it's also lessened because everybody's talking about it all the time and it becomes like the, like a F like a farce, like not sacred in any way. It's like,2 (11m 47s):Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of people who are doing the most, like in terms of self-help and they're just still the biggest, or they're just lying to themselves about the fact that they're, they feel like they're getting better, but they're really just haven't changed at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, living anywhere is a problem. Well, let me get out of here. I feel like, wow, you can really feel the Puritan vibe. I mean, it's yes. You really it's like, we don't talk about feelings. We, we talk about things on the surface. We don't reveal, you know, very much about ourselves. Wow. Yeah. Keep everything. It's all, it's very buttoned up.2 (12m 27s):Wow. When I first moved here, I really appreciated that, you know, I've done some wild swings geographically, like yeah. Growing up in Sacramento was kind of one sort of thing unto itself that doesn't relate that much to California. Yeah. And then going to Chicago was like, oh, okay. I like this. These people are really down to earth. You know, then I got kind of sick of that. And then I moved to back to California, to the bay area. And I really was into that for awhile. And then I felt like, oh my God, this is all. So this is all bullshit. Like talking about everybody was an imposter. I felt like everybody was low key. So aggro. And then just this hippie, you know, talking about free level the time.2 (13m 8s):And then we moved to New York and I was like, oh, people will just get right to the point here. I really appreciate that. And I never got tired of that, but then we moved here and I thought, oh, this is new England. This is what the pilgrims they've decided a way to be. And it's very buttoned up and they haven't changed in, you know, 300 years. For, you know, have like a little ideas folder in my notes where I just make it little snippets of ideas and write them down. And I've had like six or seven that I realized are all circling around the same idea, which is, I want to have a movie or some, or some type of a script where it's a superhero, but the superhero, their power is that they can interact through some type of magic.2 (14m 8s):They can intervene in somebody else's life when they're making bad decisions. This is sort of romantic coaching and like, Hmm, maybe it's virtual reality, but they, they can kind of put themselves into the body of the person who's making the bad decisions and then help them. You know, it's like, it's basically like the therapist having none of the barriers to, you know, wellness or whatever, and just kind of getting right in there at the same time as this is a comment about how we look to other people to tell us how to behave. Anyway, the superheroes name is psyche and I love it. And, and I'm, I'm it, I'm it.2 (14m 49s):I want to kind of continue with this idea, but I am woefully terrible with plot, as I think we've talked about before. I don't know if you're talking about the podcast before and it's such a, it makes perfect sense that my given my own psychology, that plot would be the hardest thing,1 (15m 11s):Because more that,2 (15m 13s):Well, my, my mother is the first person to tell you, she's never done anything with a plan. She's always just reacted to whatever has come her way. In fact, the idea of like having a goal and working towards it was literally something I never learned until I met my husband. Wow. When like a week, a day. And he was like, what are you going to do today? And I said, oh, I think I'm going to sit out in the sun. And he said, what? I thought you were trying to be an actress. I thought you were like, well, you don't have any time to sit down and do anything. Like you have a goal. And that, and that's been my thing is like, I, I have these vague undefined or have had vague undefined goals yet that in some ways I'm working towards, but because there's no sort of master plan or not a conscious one, if don't know how to get from a, to B to C I know everything about what it looks like as you're traveling from a to B to C, I had to describe it and everything like that.2 (16m 10s):But as far as charting a course of like, this is where I'm starting, and this is where I'm going to end up. That's pretty new to me. And I feel like that's why I struggle with clot. Cause I just don't have like a lot of idea of how something unfolds.1 (16m 26s):Seriously. Literally just ADHD. Could that be,2 (16m 30s):Oh, maybe you have ADHD.1 (16m 33s):Did we talk about2 (16m 33s):This? I have add1 (16m 36s):Or add. So if you have that, this is when I talk to writers who have add that this is their exact situation. Oh, okay. Excellent. With dialogue, excellent. With everything except the actual plot pointing to a, to B, to C you just, I think you just need a class in some add meds. Like I'm serious. I, I don't think, Hey, this is not a, this is, this could be a very practical thing. So, so my father had some big problems, but was a brilliant man in a lot of ways, right? His dissertation, he could see the whole thing where it was going to end up.1 (17m 16s):He knew what he wanted people to feel when he read it. He knew he could not write the thing. So my mother ended up writing it for him. Please don't take your degree away possibly anyway, because he couldn't do the, the actual thing. So I I'm wondering, just like my thing was kind of practical of finding a coworking space and not getting a divorce kind of a situation like yours is literally like, could be a physiological response to too much stimuli going on and how to get to, to your vision. So, and maybe2 (17m 54s):I need a coach.1 (17m 56s):Well, Gina funny, you should bring that up because I was going to say to you, how much is it worth for? You know, I tried to tell you as being your coach on our pocket,2 (18m 6s):That would have been so slick. That would have been like, you're like, I, wasn't going to mention this to you, but I'm actually becoming okay.1 (18m 12s):I'm actually a coach now. So anyway, that is my 2 cents. When you start saying, when you start talking about that, I was like, wait a second. This is not a psychological problem. I don't think,2 (18m 25s):Okay. I mean, you know what? That sounds right to me.1 (18m 29s):Well, it makes a lot of work. You're not lazy and you're not, it's not like you don't have ambition. That's not true because you we've talked a lot on the podcast about how, like having some sense of power is really important to you. Maybe not fame, but power, the power that comes with that. So I'm like, all right, so that's not someone that has no ambition, right? So that's gotta be a different mechanism in the brain. That's not connecting in some way because you're also a people pleaser. So if someone, so my guess is if I w I would wonder if we did an experiment, like if you were in a class, right. And the class person was the teacher, the person in authority was like, and you trusted this person or mentor, whoever writing group, whatever the higher power is in that moment said, she said to you, Gita, you must do, you know, act one must be written by this date.1 (19m 18s):I wonder if you do it,2 (19m 20s):I would, I totally would. In fact, that's a part of me has been like, should I try to get into an MFA program? I don't think that's the answer. I class first just take a class,1 (19m 31s):The script anatomy, there's all these classes that like, that we can talk about later, but like take a class. I know I should have taken a class and not enrolled in an MFA program. Like that was what I, I mean, it was,2 (19m 44s):Can I tell you one of my favorite slash least favorite things in the world is when I have a big problem. And the answer is like, something really is. I both love and hate that. I hate it because I think, wow, why didn't I think of that? And why have I spent so much time just like ruminating and cogitating and wringing my hands about something that has like a pretty straightforward answer. Yeah.1 (20m 6s):And a lot of times, a lot of times us, I think kids that weren't really, for whatever reason, didn't get what they needed, emotionally, make all these things. Our brain works overtime to try to figure things out when this solution, like, I remember, like when I started having panic attacks, I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I went to the doctor. He's like, you have a panic disorder, take this pill. And I was like, what? Yeah.2 (20m 31s):How could it be that easy? How could it be? How could it be? I feel like in that if I were in your shoes, I would think, no, no, no, I don't just have something that everybody else has. I have a truly unique, right. Is that what you were feeling?1 (20m 44s):Yeah. I thought I was going to end up in a state run nursing and I had a panic disorder. It was so I couldn't, and I think it gets wrapped up in shame and wrapped up and I should be able to, I could be, you know, all that shit, but yeah, it, it, it was like, he was like, no, no, no, no, you have something called a panic disorder. It's in this book and it was a DSM. He was like, it's in this book. And he read the, the stuff, the criteria. And I was like, I had that. He was like, no shit. Which is why I'm telling you to take this pill, the Zoloft. And I was like, wow, it didn't even cross my mind. The other thing is, nobody tells you about it. Like a lot of the struggle that we have, I think at, or at least that I have is internal. Right. So I don't, I'm not sharing it with people, which is why I think the podcast is good because maybe someone's listening to the podcast going, oh fuck.1 (21m 29s):Maybe I just have a panic disorder or maybe I have add, or I need a class instead of my life is over.2 (21m 36s):I'm terrible. I'm fundamentally incapable of getting any better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you for that. What a gift1 (21m 42s):You gave me? Well, yeah, that's just what came forward. I'm like, wait, this is not a psychological weirdo, psychological pathological emotional problem.0 (21m 55s):Well,4 (22m 0s):Today on the podcast, we're talking to Kate, Dougan a playwriting major from DePaul theater school who currently lives in Morocco, where she teaches English. She is also a performer and has some interesting stories about her road from wanting to be a performer to deciding, to be a writer. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate Dougan2 (22m 27s):Oh my God. You haven't changed you one1 (22m 30s):Tiny bit. Let's say.3 (22m 34s):Thanks. Wow. Nice to see you girls. Do you guys look the same? I can't believe it. 30 years almost, right?2 (22m 41s):Yeah. Don't say it like that.3 (22m 43s): sorry. It's been 30 years since I graduated from high school. 25, since I graduated from college.1 (22m 53s):It's a long2 (22m 54s):You go by Kate.3 (22m 55s):Yeah. I go by Kate now. I grew up from Katie. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.2 (23m 3s):Well, Kate Dougan congratulations used for five to theater3 (23m 7s):School. I did. I did.2 (23m 10s):You are now in of all places, Morocco, what the heck's going on in Morocco?3 (23m 15s):I'm teaching a high school here at an American high school. Yeah. My husband is Moroccan. So that's how we ended up here. We met in Chicago, worked together and in 2018. Yeah. We just decided it was, you know, he, his parents are, you know, getting a little older and he had not lived in Morocco for about 20, 25 years. And so he decided, you know, he wanted maybe try to come home for a little while. And so he got a job at an American high school. He's a teacher, he's a math teacher. And so we came and then I, I started sort of in one job that didn't really work for me.3 (24m 2s):Cause I initially thought like I was coming to teach theater. Always. The reality is never quite the same as what everybody says is gonna happen. And so, but when we got here, so I tried to teach a theater class, it didn't school wasn't quite ready for it. Then I sort of morphed into teaching English as a second language. And then last year during, well, during 20 19, 20, 20, I got my teaching accreditation to teach high school English. So I teach English language and literature. So yeah. Yeah. How cool do you like it? I do, actually.3 (24m 43s):I like it a lot. I, you know, everybody says the teaching is the hardest job and in many ways, teaching really is the hardest job. Like you, it's a lot of work and it's kind of, it's almost like doing like five shows a day, but you have to write all of your own material and learn all of your own material. And you know, it, it, you have to sort of, you have to really be ready for like a group of high school kids. I mean, these are, you know, they, they want to be engaged and they want to be entertained and they want to, you know, and if you can do those things and talk to the kids and be real with them, then you know, it works.3 (25m 28s):And on days that you're not quite up for it, it's a little tough. But yeah, I do like it a lot. I mean, I think that if you like to be in the room with the kids, then, then you you're, you're going to win, you know? Yeah. There's, I think that there's unfortunately, a lot of teachers who don't necessarily like children. And so you kind of questioned that sometimes. I'm sure we've all had experiences as students in that kind of situation. But yeah, I liked the kids. I liked being with high school kids, you know, they're alive and interested and you know, they haven't given up yet.3 (26m 11s):It's true. There, there, I read something to them the other day about, yeah, they're not dead yet. They're still alive. So that's, that's what I like about it.1 (26m 21s):The other thing I was going to say is that my, my mom was a teacher and she used to say the first year of teaching, like full-time was the hardest year of her life. And she like cried every day after school and it was the most rewarding. And so I, yeah, yeah.3 (26m 39s):I mean, my first year was 2019 or 20. So 2019 to 2020, I was doing my accreditation and I was teaching part-time and that was March, 2020, obviously it was all online. And then September, we started back, it was my first year teaching full time. And, you know, we had one class that was online and then everybody, you know, the kids had the option to be online if they wanted to. So there was one class online and then there were students in school and yeah, you're just trying to, you know, learn, figure out what you're doing and teach yourself the material and, you know, stay alive and handle whatever it was.3 (27m 20s):It was, it was a very stressful year. Last year I got to the, I got to June and I was really tired and really stressed out. And I just, you know, the good part of that is I have declared this year. I will never let myself get into that state again, you know, whatever I have to do to maintain my balance is really important to me. And so far it seems to be working. I I'm feeling much more on top of things this year, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.2 (27m 55s):So beef, let's talk about the period of time you decided to go to theater school. You did, you caught up on the east coast.3 (28m 7s):Yeah. I, well, not exactly. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I know. I always thought of it as east coast. And then years later I was like, I think Pittsburgh is really Midwest. Like, I mean, it's, it's like this close to Ohio where I was from was like this close to West Virginia. So there's a whole other element going on. So it almost, you know, it is east coast, I guess, officially, but it has sort of a Midwest sort of feel like blue collar, you know, town, but yeah, so I grew up in Pittsburgh. I, I don't know.3 (28m 48s):Do you guys just want me to do grow2 (28m 49s):Performing and I do high school plays3 (28m 52s):And stuff. Okay. So not, not as much as I would've liked. I knew from a very young age that I did want to go into theater. We, we lived up the hill from a small college Washington and Jefferson college. I'm from Washington, Pennsylvania. And you know, they built a new like art center one year. And I remember going to see my first theater show there and it had just opened. And I think it was the Rainmaker. I think my dad knew the guy, the place Starbuck, and I just, you know, like, so we want to see the play and it was just the whole experience of it, you know, going to the theater and sitting in the audience and the lights and the people.3 (29m 36s):And I just remember like when the lights went down at the, at the end, I was just like, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do this, you know, how old were you? I was eight actually. So I, yeah, it got me at an early age. I wish I had gotten set on something else a little bit. But1 (30m 0s):Why Did the theater break your heart?3 (30m 5s):Ah, did the theater break? My heart? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, everybody's journey is different. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's not that it broke my heart now. I feel like I just wish I had no, of course. I mean, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change the trajectory. I wouldn't change that love, you know, like that feeling. But I think just like when you experience something like that, it's such a young age, like your mind gets like really set on that thing. And like, I think it's important to grow and change and you know, obviously I've done that and I've done other things.3 (30m 46s):It just, I don't know. No, because I don't wish it was really different. So I, but I, you know, we all have our moments, right. I'm sure. Of course.1 (30m 57s):Yeah. That's what this whole podcast is about where we were like, what the fuck was that? And theater broke my heart over and over again. I thought it was going to be one thing or the business and I, it was not that thing. So I, for me, it's been a off and on heartbreaking experience with the theater. And that doesn't mean that there hasn't been intense love to, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's all part of the same, but yeah. So you, you, from a young age, you were like, you saw Rainmaker and you were like, that's it? Yeah.3 (31m 25s):So that's what I want to do. And so, I mean, but like I said, it was a small town there wasn't like a whole lot going on there. I never really took any acting classes or anything until I was in high school. You know, I went like there was a, there was an acting teacher at my high school. And I just remember like going to her class and being like super excited to finally like, get to do this thing. And like, you know, she asked everybody to kind of give a spiel like about what they want to do. And so I talked about it. I was like, this is really what I want to do with my life. I'm really excited about it. I, I just, you know, this is it for me.3 (32m 6s):And, and I just remember her, like, it wasn't necessarily that day, but like at some point she just kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, you're the one that wants to be an actress. And it was like that first, like, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It was like that first experience of like, oh, I guess like me being excited about it, isn't necessarily going to get people to be positive with me. There was certain that there was an element of bitterness, I guess, which I think happens to people, you know, and I think it happens justifiably.3 (32m 53s):And so I think, you know, it's very important to me that I don't become bitter that I, and I'm glad I haven't, but I, I felt it was a very, it was like that first experience, like, okay, this is somebody that I, I, this is something I want to do. And this is somebody that can help me. And she was just not very enthusiastic about being helpful to me, you know, like, yeah. Who knows I was, it was kind of a weird year for me. So maybe I, you know, wasn't a very good student or something, or maybe she,1 (33m 25s):She, she, that's a shitty you you're probably right on. No, no, because I know because I've done that to people. Actually, I, I feel like I've dampened peoples. I do this with my husband all the time where I rain on his parade. And she rained on your parade a little bit. I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't have good reason to rain grades, but she did. And that, that is sort of, we hear it a lot. So I would think for someone to either either blatantly or inadvertently reign on a youngster's parade in terms of their artistic dreams.3 (33m 57s):So like at high school, I wasn't really that, like, I, I think I, we did like a play for my English class or something. So I don't know. I, I try, like I was in speech and debate and I went to one meet. And let me tell you like the power of the mind. Like I got laryngitis that day. Like I got laryngitis on the bus on the way to the meet and couldn't talk all day. And then on the bus on the way home I was able to speak. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's, yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other . I mean, does that mean you1 (34m 37s):Didn't keep going with speech and debate3 (34m 39s):Or you had no, I don't think I did. I don't really remember. I obviously it was not a huge part of my life because I think at some point I was like, okay, this is not the person that's going to help me. I'm not getting feeling very positive vibes here. And so I'm gonna try to, you know, do other things. So then I started taking acting classes.1 (34m 60s):Did she wait to interrupt? Did she run the speech and debate thing too?3 (35m 3s):Yes, she did. Oh, no.1 (35m 5s):So that's, I mean, there you go. I mean, that's3 (35m 8s):How my mom1 (35m 9s):Running.3 (35m 11s):Yeah. Who knows. Anyway, so then I started going to like taking acting classes in downtown Pittsburgh. There was the civic light opera, and they had like an academy of, it was musical theater, but I just took straight acting classes. I was never like really a singer or anything like that. And that was a really positive experience for me. I had a great teacher, Jill, and, you know, we did a lot of scene study and she was, she was the opposite, you know, she was a very positive person, very loving and sweet. And, you know, really, you made me feel good about what I was doing and what I could do.3 (35m 52s):So, you know, there are those people as well that, you know,2 (35m 57s):Who suggested that you could pursue it for college.3 (36m 5s):I mean, I think it was never, for me, it was just never a question like, but I long story, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in the acting program at DePaul, I was in the play. I was in the wait. I was in the, I was in the playwriting program. Yeah.2 (36m 27s):Why do I remember you as being in class with me? But I feel like I remember you as being one of the actors. I remember seeing you on Steve.3 (36m 38s):No, I, I, I doubt it. I, I, unless2 (36m 42s):Were you in a play onstage?3 (36m 44s):I don't think so. No. I mean, unless it was like some kind of workshop for one of my plays or something like that, but no,2 (36m 54s):I mean, do you remember me at all? I3 (36m 56s):Do remember. Yeah. I remember you guys. I remember you completely. I just, so I think I graduated. I was a year older than you guys. I think. When did you graduate? I graduated in 96. Okay. So yeah, one year older. You will, so, okay, go ahead.2 (37m 14s):Awesome. Yeah, that happened. What the hell?3 (37m 19s):Well, let me, let me dial back to, to where, cause you asked me if my teacher wanted me to go to college and for me, like there was just no other, I was going to school for theater and there was no stopping me. You know, it was funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts and, and I listened to Caitlin Kiernan's and she was just like, you know, I was 18. Like, what do you, you know, like what did I think? I don't know, but I just, this is what my mind was set on. So, so I'm sure she, she, I remember her telling me that that acting teacher, she was like of all of my, you know, she put me aside and this one other girl, Heather, who I think has actually done pretty well. I think she lives in LA and you know, there's not a lot of TV work.3 (38m 0s):And she was like, you know, she's like of my students. I think you guys have real potential to make something in this business. So she was very positive. So then I started auditioning. I auditioned for probably not enough schools. I should've heard DePaul and like Carnegie Mellon and I think some other, a couple of other schools. And so then I kind of had my mind set in Chicago. My brother lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I had gone to visit him. And I just really like fell in love with the city. And I always knew that I wanted to go to school in a city. So I kind of got my mind set on Chicago. I was like, well, if I get in the car to Carnegie Mellon, I'm from Pittsburgh obviously, but I didn't.3 (38m 45s):So then I auditioned for DePaul and I didn't get in my first, I didn't get in. And so I decided to take a year off and try again, which my dad was not super happy about, but I just had my mindset. I was like, no, I'm going to take year off. And then I'm going to try it again. I'm going to audition again. And that's it. And it ended up being, you know, I think taking your off was a good thing for me. I auditioned again and I didn't get in again. And so, you know, it's funny, like listening to these stories of you guys, like, and all the struggles that you went through and it's like, well, you know, well, at least you, you got in what's true.3 (39m 33s):Like there are different struggles. Yeah. There are different struggles for sure. But then so, and I, when I didn't get in the second time, I was just, I don't know. I think I was just set on Chicago. I was kind of set on DePaul. They'd offered me a place in theater studies program. And so I took it and then I, I decided when I was there to do join the playwriting program, and this is 1996 or 1992. And I was like, at that point I was like, literally like the only person in the playwriting program. My first year, there was like one person who was like a sophomore.3 (40m 14s):I think it was like the second or third year that Dean Corrin was there. He had just been taken on to start this program. And so, yeah. And then as I went through like a few other people joined like Diane Herrera and I think Adam Matthias was also in the writing program. And so while I was there kind of grew a little bit. Yeah. So I, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know. You just want me to keep talking? I feel like2 (40m 51s):I was just ask a question about the theater studies program, because I don't know that we've ever really talked about that program and, and how you just described it, made it sound like that's where people can go to figure out what non-acting thing they want to do in theater.3 (41m 9s):I mean, I think I, to be honest, you know, I mean, let's not kid ourselves college is about making money. Right. For, for most people it's, for-profit, it's private school. I think that they wanted to build the program and yeah. I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I did pretty good on my SATs. My grades were decent and I don't know, maybe my audition was okay. And so it was sort of, yeah, like, you know, they offered it to people like, you know, if you want to come, you're not invited to the acting program, but if you want, you can come to the theater studies program. And so I said, no, the first year, and then the second year I was like, I'm ready to go to school. I mean, sometimes I think I probably would've been better off like going to like a smaller school that didn't necessarily require an audition or something like that, but say levee.3 (41m 57s):Right. And, and so, yeah, I was like, well, I guess I'll do playwriting. And I, I, I mean, I'm glad I did it for many reasons. It was not, it ended up being a really good choice for me. I mean, I think like listening to you guys talk about the competition and, you know, sort of like, I don't do well with rejection. You know, I think you really, I don't, I don't necessarily like love to be the center of attention. And I think like, as an actor or at least to be successful on some level, you have to want that attention.3 (42m 42s):I mean, you guys do, do you feel that you like being the center of attention? She does.1 (42m 49s):Like, I love, I am constantly and mine is, if you listen to the podcast, like we talk about the psychological stuff. Like, I, I still, you know, feel like I wasn't treated right as a kid. So I'm constantly, I'm so transparent about it. I'm constantly trying to get the approval of my mother. Who's dead by the way. So yeah, I, I can say that, like, I want to belong and I want someone to say you are special and I pick you. That's like my dark sort of shadow side. And it always will be for me. I think even if I work through it, I think we all have our shadow sides and that's, and that's mine. And I think it transformed into, oh, maybe if this school likes me, that will give me that sense, but I never got that from DePaul because, you know, one it's that set up for that too.1 (43m 37s):People are bitter and weird and three it's an inside job. Yeah.3 (43m 41s):Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like part of it was, I am the youngest of four and so I think it was like that craving for attention. Like I totally get what you're saying there. So, I mean, I like to be on stage, but like, I don't necessarily like the auditioning part of it and I don't necessarily, you know, like have to be the center of attention to parties or any of those things. But I did, you know, I really did enjoy, I really do enjoy acting like I, I do like it, but so1 (44m 12s):You, you,3 (44m 12s):You were doing a playwriting BFA. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You did.1 (44m 18s):And your plays got workshopped.3 (44m 21s):Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the program was still very fledgling and I think because, you know, I wasn't in the acting program, you know, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, I think admitted,1 (44m 43s):Wait, I just have to say, like, there's something really fierce about auditioning twice for the program and then going to theater school, studying theater studies, look at your, at a young age to say, you know what? I fucking want to go to school. So I'm going to, I mean, talk about, I, I see it as, you know, I hate calling people brave, cause I think it's kind of sending, but I think it's fierce to say I'm still going to go to this school. I mean, of course you had, I would have a chip on my shoulder so big. I wouldn't go. Yeah. You went and got an education for God's sake in a degree.3 (45m 16s):Yeah. And I, I, I got a really good education, you know, that's part of what was really positive for me. And I'll go back to the question about workshopping in a second. But what was positive for me is that the theater school had this glitch in their, in their system in because the acting students had to take so many classes cause you guys had yoga and movement to music and scene study and whoever knows what else. So like as part of your tuition, you could take up to 24 credits. And so what I did is I then got a really great liberal arts education.3 (45m 57s):I took poetry writing classes. I took like performance of literature. I took video editing. I took intro to film. I took like,1 (46m 10s):We'll do you could do that Kate? Like, how did you figure out like, oh, I have 24 credits. I'm going to use these.3 (46m 15s):I really don't. I don't know that anybody told me, I think I just figured it out at some point. And I was like, okay, well I guess I'm going to get my money's worth and I'm going to go take these other classes and these other schools and learn how to write and learn how to make films and do intro to film and learn, you know? So like I really loved college. I don't, you know, the theater school was, I don't have anything negative to really say about the theater school either. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I sort of had that chip on my shoulder to begin with about being part of the theater school about feeling like Jen, like you said, like about feeling like an insider, but you know, all my friends were in the theater school.3 (47m 2s):I, I love theater people. I really enjoyed that experience. But, but part of my good college experience happened outside of it in many ways, just because I kind of took the reins and I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have some fun with this and get a good education and, and play. And I, I loved it. I loved school. I loved learning new things and try new things. I even, I even took like a leave of absence from the theater for theater school for one quarter. Cause I did a, an overseas, I went to Ireland for a quarter.3 (47m 43s):So, and to do that, I had to take a leave of absence from the theaters. Yeah. Does that seem familiar? Yeah, probably Kelly was crying because I was supposed to be her roommate, but I never got which Kelly Kelly and Mick Adams. I was when I came back from Ireland, we were supposed to be roommates, but I never called and she just got her own apartments. And then I was like, oh my God, I don't know where I'm going to live. But yeah. So I, you know, anyway, so back to my theater school experience, so was, was positive also for playwriting. I, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, Dean Corrin was great, you know, we took like dramatic criticism we had yeah.3 (48m 30s):You know, another, another theme that I have, you know, listening to your podcast and you guys talked about it a little bit is like self-sabotage or not taking advantage of the opportunities presented to you. I feel like, because I kind of had that chip and I wanted to be an actor. Like I didn't necessarily take advantage of the opportunities, like playwriting opportunities, which came easier of course, because cause that's the way it goes, because if you want something it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to be easy, but if you're kind of, sort of like, well maybe, maybe not then the opportunities roll in, but yeah, like we had a poetry or a playwriting workshop class with Sandy Shinar she worked at victory gardens at the time.3 (49m 18s):Yeah. And she was good friends with Dean and like he had her come in as like a guest teacher one day and we were going to work my play and he'd given it to her and she had read it and, and I was just, I don't know. I, I just was like, oh God, I hate that. I really don't want to work on it. Do we have to do this? Can we do something else? And like how we shoot ourselves in the foot, you know, like what an opportunity really? And because I was insecure and scared, I'm sure like whatever psychological, you know, thing you want to come up with that, that, that we, we do to why, why we do these things for ourselves.3 (50m 1s):So, you know, and I, I had other opportunities like that along the way that I didn't necessarily take advantage of. But1 (50m 8s):Did you pull your play or did you work3 (50m 10s):On it? We didn't work on it. No, because there was somebody else in the class who was much smarter than I was and was like, oh, well here's my play. We can do my play. We can work on mine today. Yeah. I know. That's really that's.1 (50m 26s):I mean, I totally relate. And I think it, it just speaks to many things, but like, you weren't ready for that and that's it. And I, I'm starting to look at things like ready versus not ready versus good and bad. So you just weren't ready to have that experience. And we can look back and, you know, I listened to Gina and I talk to people on and we're like, we blame ourselves for that, but you just simply didn't have the emotional resources to take in that experience. And that sucks. But,2 (51m 1s):And when you're not ready, it, people could say anything to you. That person could have said, we want you to be the new resident playwright, a victory gardens. You would've said, I don't think so.1 (51m 13s):I could've gotten the laryngitis again. Like it it's, we couldn't stop.3 (51m 19s):That's so interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's, that's hearing it come from you. It, it, it's nice Rather than me saying it to myself or trying to figure out, like, why, why do I do these things to myself?1 (51m 37s):And it's interesting having done all these podcasts, Kate, we see it over and over again. So we have the data to tell you that people have, we've heard like so many people like with these ICTs being offered these things and being like, no, I'm not going to move to LA because you know, I have an apartment in Wrigleyville. Like I'm not going to be a movie star. And people are like, what's the D we all have that. I think that's part of growing up. And I also also think it's part of expecting young people to really handle a lot of things we cannot handle.3 (52m 11s):Yeah. They're one of the books that I, I teach my students is called outliers. Have you guys read it? It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he, you know, there's a section in where he talks about practical intelligence and you know, how some people, the people that are successful, you know, they grow up with a certain family life, or, you know, maybe it's about money. It's about education. It's about these things. But it's also just knowing how to handle yourself in certain situations and knowing how to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. And I think if you aren't, if you don't have that, or you're not taught that it is hard sometimes to, you know?2 (52m 50s):Yeah. And what, I just heard you, I mean, when you said, it's good to hear that from us, that made me think, oh, you've been beating yourself up about this for 25 years to yourself. Why did I squander this opportunity? Which, I mean, whether or not you did it, it's completely human. That, that you might occasionally have that thought, but have you spent a lot of time in, in regret?3 (53m 18s):I mean, I don't think so. I think I don't spend a lot of time in regret. You know, I definitely had moments over the years. I, well, a few years back, I sort of had like a little bit of a, not a breakdown, but like, I think of my midlife crisis started and like my, you know, I have two kids and my daughter was, you know, eight and my son was four and it was just kind of like, you know, you know, when kids are babies, it's just baby, baby, baby, baby. You don't, you don't have time to think about yourself. So who cares? And then like when you start to get back to yourself a little bit, it's just like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm 42 or, you know, whatever, and what have I really done?3 (54m 8s):And you know, what am I doing? And you know, is this, this, this it, I mean, I, I was teaching yoga. So, I mean, that's also a part of my journey. I mean, like I, so when I got out of school, like I did acting for a while, like, I've done some very bad independent films. Do you guys know Sandra Delgado? Oh yeah. Yeah. She, I like, we did a really bad film together in the early two thousands. And, you know, like I did like a horror film and I was like, had some small parts as mother independent films.3 (54m 52s):And, you know, I, I was trying to act and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and like I did a couple of plays, but it was just never, you know, I just could never get to a certain point. I really just, I would have done theater and crappy theater and whatever, but I just, I couldn't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I have the, that decade that I called the, the bad boyfriend years, so which we can all relate to on some level, which I, you know, where we all waste a lot of energy on people who don't deserve it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so then, yeah, like a few years back, so it was kind of not in a good place.3 (55m 39s):And I was like, okay, well, I guess it's now or never. And I, I finally finished the play, so I went back to writing. Yeah. That's huge. That's awesome. You know, I finally cause I, I was like, okay, I guess if I'm going to try, I guess I gotta try. And, you know, I, I really discovered a few things. I discovered that I like writing. I, I feel good when I'm doing it. You know, there's a lot of positives to it in that way. I finished the play. I, it got, it got into like the second round at the Austin film festival.3 (56m 19s):So that was, yeah, that was pretty cool. I guess, since it was just like my first foray out of doing anything in theater in quite some time, and I had a stage reading in Chicago and then it sort of, you know, petered out after that. I, I was sending it out, sending it out, but no, no, no hits after that. But so, you know, I'm kind of gearing up to write again. So, no, I don't, I don't have, I don't, I haven't been beating myself up about it. I think that, you know, life takes a course and you can only do what you are doing in the time that you're doing it.3 (57m 0s):You only have the information that you have. You only have the life skills that you have. You only have the resources that you have. And so I think regret, I don't waste a lot of time on regret. I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and sort of like you said, Jen, like everybody's story is the same, a little bit. And that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, I've looked up to and had a lot of respect for and were really good actors and good at what they did. It just didn't happen for them. And so that's, that's like, I, yeah.2 (57m 37s):So I'm still just trying to, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why I just remember you as being an acting student, maybe it had to do with that. You were friends with Kelly and maybe because of your friendship with Kelly.3 (57m 54s):Yeah, probably that was it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was friends with all the apartment three crew. I, yeah.1 (58m 2s):So I mean, I like, I like that even like deeper in my brain, I was like, what if I was taking on your desire to be an actor? I saw you as an actor because it was so strong that you wanted to be an actor. Like, I literally have an image of you on stage, but I actually can't3 (58m 22s):Be somebody else. Yeah. I1 (58m 25s):It's your face. It's really weird. So, anyway,3 (58m 27s):I mean, I guess at one time, like I had a play that maybe I did a stage reading of with Darryl Dickerson at school and maybe some other actors, maybe Kelly was in it. I don't know. But that would have really been like in a classroom. Yeah, yeah, no, I not an actor or, I mean, I am an actor, but none of the theater school. Yeah.2 (58m 54s):So these days, I mean, when you're talking about the work of being an English teacher, it reminded me actually, ironically, just a few days ago, I ran across a notebook that I haven't opened since I was a teacher of social studies and drama. And I re remember that I used to take for social studies. I used to write my lesson like a monologue kind of, and sort of not memorize it exactly, but almost like repeatedly rehearse it because it was not information that I already knew. I was learning the lesson right before I taught it. And teaching is so performative that during that time I was doing theater at the time.2 (59m 35s):But even if I weren't, I think I would have felt fulfilled in a performance way. Do you have that feeling about being a teacher? That it feels like a performance?3 (59m 50s):I guess what I, I do like the exchange of energy, like, like you would get from say a live audience or something like that. I don't know that I necessarily look at it as a performance, but I do feel like, yeah, you, obviously you have to be ready. You have to know what you're going to say. You have to know the material. And like, even if it is you just learning it that day or getting, you know, I feel that exchange, like, I feel good after class, like after talking with the kids and being with the kids and talking at them and, and teaching them, it does feel that way, like a little bit like that exchange of energy that you get from an audience a little bit.3 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah.2 (1h 0m 37s):Do you otherwise feel a kind of a need to do, do you have a need for any other type of creative outlet or your guys you're doing it because you're kind of getting back into3 (1h 0m 48s):My goal is to, yeah. To start writing again, like, I, I don't know how, what your, how you guys write. Like, I don't know what if you're constantly writing all the time or for me it's, it's like, I tend to sort of get inspiration and then work on something, you know, in a, in, in a period of time. Or if I create the discipline, like when I finished this play, I was getting up at like four 30 every day. I was teaching yoga at the time and the kids were, you know, still pretty young. And so I knew that the only way it was ever going to work is if I was disciplined enough to, you know, set that time aside, this is my time, my time to write.3 (1h 1m 33s):And so now, you know, after, like you said, you know, that first year is so hard, so now I'm starting to get my legs again. And I'm hoping to, yeah. Maybe start working on something I have, I've like dabbled in screenwriting before a little bit. So I'm thinking about, maybe I'm getting too into that a little bit.1 (1h 1m 57s):I have a question for you when you took playwriting. So this is interesting because it was such a young program, right. Was there any actually teaching of writing at the theater school, Like how to write a play?3 (1h 2m 12s):You know, it's funny about that. It's funny because I mean, like, I, it feels like we would write and we give it the stuff to Dean and we had deadlines and things like that. And he would give us feedback on it. You know, it's the funny thing is, is like the only, I feel like the only piece of practical writing advice that I ever got, and I, this is nothing against Dean. It's just what I remember. So Dean was awesome. I loved him. Well, we had a visiting playwright from Nigeria all over TIMI. I don't know if you remember him being there. He was there for like one quarter and he basically just like, kind of taught me to, to write a bit, you know, he's like, he's like, you have this scene here.3 (1h 2m 57s):And the guy he's at the cafe and he wants his coffee, but the waitress isn't giving him his coffee. He has to keep asking for his coffee over and over again. And it was just like, oh, you mean, I have to create like a little bit of dramatic tension in the scene, what a revelation. Right?2 (1h 3m 16s):Like it just a Mo create3 (1h 3m 17s):A moment. I felt like, you know, he gave me some real practical advice. It was just like, okay, you just have to, you know, these two people are here and you have to kind of, he wants his coffee and she won't give him his coffee and that's where the comedy comes in. And so, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know how much, you know, they taught me about writing. I feel like I could have used a little bit of more help, like in practical matters, you know, listening to Kate's thing when you guys all went out for your showcase and that kind of thing. Like if somebody had talked to me more about submitting my work, maybe that would have been helpful.3 (1h 3m 58s):I mean, it's so weird though, to think of it at that time. I mean, I was, we were sending out headshots through the mail. We were sending out work through the mail. I mean, you have to go ,1 (1h 4m 14s):You'd have to go to what was called Kinko's then print out your play and then, and then mail it in an envelope to theaters or drop it off in person.3 (1h 4m 24s):And there was like that, like one place where you could get your headshots downtown, like the one like photography place where you could go and get like your headshots in bulk and you'd have to go pick them up. And like the blue2 (1h 4m 35s):Box. I remember the blue box.3 (1h 4m 37s):Yes. I still box exactly. You know,1 (1h 4m 44s):I think, or2 (1h 4m 45s):Yeah, something like that. So. Okay. So then let's talk about the period between graduating and we're where you are now. So you, well, you said you were auditioning,3 (1h 4m 57s):So I graduated. Yeah. And then after that, I, I, you know, I would go in spurts of productivity, you know, where I would audition a lot. You know, I was always looking at performing, you know, once again, trying to, I took a lot of classes in Chicago. I, I took classes at the actor's center. They had a lot of Meisner there. I did Steven, Steven. I have a villages program. He had a studio in like Wicker park. And so he had like a, like a, I think it was like a nine month program or something. So you would, you know, go and you'd be with the same group.3 (1h 5m 40s):And I went through a program there. I took classes downtown at, I forget what it's called now, the audition studio, or, you know, and I remember taking like an on-camera class with Erica Daniels. And who was the other, who was the lady that she always worked with? The casting director. Do you remember she was blonde1 (1h 6m 8s):Phyllis at Steppenwolf?3 (1h 6m 9s):No. It was like a casting director. Her name began with an ass. I want to say it was like Sharon or Sally, or, I dunno, she was like a big casting director at the time. So I took like an on-camera class with them, you know, I, Yeah. I don't know. It's funny cause like you, you, there's these moments where you realize like you're trying to be funny and it just, isn't funny and it just ends up really awkward. And that was one of those moments with them, you know, you're trying to impress somebody and, and she, I was sort of like chubby in high school.3 (1h 6m 57s):And so I think that as with most women who have issues with body issues, like you, you have those body issues forever. It takes a long time to shake them off. And I remember they gave me the scene. It was, the character was played by Sarah rule. Yeah. So, you know, she was a little overweight at the time, you know, and I remember kind of making this off-color joke about how, oh, I guess I see you gave me the, the part of the fat girl or something like that. Like really like probably not appropriate, but I, I meant it to be self-deprecating, but I wasn't really fat at the time.3 (1h 7m 37s):So it was didn't come off as self-deprecating it was another one of those instances where it's just like, and the woman just like hated me after that, you know? And Erica was pretty cool. I think she kind of realized that I was just nervous and awkward. And with the other woman, I remember seeing her like outside after, and she crossed the street to like, not talk to me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm such an asshole. Like, why did I say that? I didn't mean it. You know? And so I'm even blushing now I think thinking about it,1 (1h 8m 10s):You said what probably a lot of people were thinking when they would get that.2 (1h 8m 15s):Honestly, you can rest assured that absolutely every person who was there was just in an internal monologue about their own body issues. I mean, that's, that's the thing that comes up over and over again, when we feel so much shame about something like that, it's like, those people would never remember it. A and if, even if they did, they'd say with the benefit of hindsight, they might say, oh yeah, well, that just brought up for me. You know, my feelings about myself. And3 (1h 8m 44s):I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it just, it, so I took classes all over the city. I auditioned a lot, like I said, I did some independent films and then, you know, like I was still auditioning kind of in spurts over time, I think. And then I discovered yoga. And so I started doing Bikram yoga. It's just the hot yoga. I hear you guys talking about cults and cult leaders a lot on here. He's, he's one of those guys. He's a, he's a cult leader, a guru now downfall on by sexual harassment.3 (1h 9m 26s):But I started doing the yoga and that was like 2007, I think. And, you know, I had a friend who really kind of pushed me to go do the training and I wasn't really sure, but I decided to go do it. And you know, it kind of, I think, I don't know if you guys have ever done yoga, but it is sort of, you know, it kind of, it gave me something that I had been missing in a way. I think, you know, it is that, that mind body connection, I think I had been very detached from my body for many reasons, you know, abuse and all that.3 (1h 10m 7s):Like not physical abuse, but other kinds of abuse. And, and so like, I think that people get detached from their bodies. And so I think I was really connected to it in a way, and I felt good, you know, in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I think that's the hardest thing. Sometimes when it goes, when you go back to theater, it's like you put so much energy into it and so much time. And I took so many classes and, you know, I enjoyed the classes and, but I just, you know, I really wanted to get on stage and it was just like, I just couldn't get there. And I think like at a certain point, you're just kind of like, what positive am I getting from this thing that I'm giving all this time and energy and love to like, what's the positives that I'm getting out of this.3 (1h 10m 55s):And I'm not, I'm not really seeing it anymore. You know, you know, I, I would get calls from people. We loved your audition. It was lovely. Please come audition for us again. So, you know, there, there were positives, but it just could never, it just really came to fruition. And so then I started doing the yoga and I, I felt really connected to it and I felt really good and in a way that I hadn't felt. And so then I started teaching yoga and I did that for like 10 years while I was having babies and raising them. And then like, yeah.3 (1h 11m 36s):So then 27 16, I started writing again.2 (1h 11m 40s):I did, I did Bikram yoga for like two years and you're just making me re remember that part of what I liked about it. It was kind of like rehearsal. I mean, cause you just go and you do the same, whatever it is, 26 poses. And the set is the same and the smell the same. And it is kind of like, it's very rich of all the nuggets, like really ritualistic.3 (1h 12m 8s):It is very ritualistic and you know, I haven't been practicing here in Morocco. Sometimes I, you know, close all the doors to my kitchen and I turn on t

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show The Sound of Your Heart (KBS, 2016), Lee Kwang-su's versatility as an actor and the underrated queen of K-dramas—Kim Mi-kyung. Grace's guest is LA-based comedian and writer Wendy Wilkins (@wendyjean on Instagram). Grace and Wendy discuss bad friends, life transitions, self-care, emotional support, brothers, and food. Pepper the dog makes a guest appearance which you can hear through her panting and squeaky toy. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

(Drag) QUEENS start your engines because I am dropping three special episodes with the finalists of Ru Paul's Drag Race UK 2021 today and we are starting with the queen of the huns, Kitty Scott-Claus! And this queen has a ‘alot alot' of impressions SO get ready to hear the GC, Cilla Black and even a bit of Princess Diana. Honestly my face ached from laughing after recording this episode!Kitty's drag journey kicked off when she was growing up in Birmingham, and after going to Drama School to study musical theatre she wasn't interested in doing the ‘boy parts' she wanted to be sassy with the costumes to match! Cue a career playing a pantomime dame up and down the country before Kitty met fellow Drag Race alumni, Cheryl Hole and was invited to be part of their drag group, Gals Aloud. Now Kitty finds herself as a finalist in Ru Paul's Drag Race UK after a snatch game playing Gemma Collins, winning the ‘Fugly but Fashionable' runway and as a girl band goddess she has even got to perform in front of the likes of Emma Bunton, Leigh-Anne Pinnock and got to meet Steps (minus her heroine Lisa Scott Lee)! In amongst a LOT of laughter in this episode Kitty opens up about how drag has helped her mental health, changed her relationship with herself and asks WHY is everyone so interested in her body image! Why shouldn't she be the body confident queen she is?!?I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did - and laugh along the way too - and I really hope you continue to listen and find the power to Reign in your own lives, too. If you loved this podcast, get in touch (follow me across social media @joshsmithhosts), I love hearing from you. Love, Josh xxx P.S Make sure you tune into the final of Ru Paul's Drag Race this Thursday - may the best drag queen win! P.P.S Make sure you sashay to my Instagram page @joshsmithhosts to see the high hair and high end look Kitty served while we recorded this episode.

Intro: buzzsaws and clean slates, rage, Where the Wild Things AreLet Me Run This By You: MoneyInterview: We talk to Carole Schweid about Juilliard, Phoebe Brand, John Lehne, Michael Brand, Midnight Cowboy, musical comedy performance, open dance calls, starring in the original cast of A Chorus Line, Bob Fosse, Pat Birch, Martha Graham, Minnie's Boys, Mervyn Nelson, playing Fastrada in the first national tour of Pippin, being a lone wolf in theatre, Lewis J. Stadlen, doing West Side Story at Bucks County Playhouse, Shelly Winters, Mary Hinkson, Nellie Forbush in South Pacific, playing Tzeitel in Fiddler on the Roof, Peppermint Lounge, Nick Dante, Michael Bennett, Marvin Hamlisch, Public Theater, Gerry Schoenfeld, The Shubert, the wish for a job vs. the real experience of working, Theda Bara & The Frontier Rabbi, Agnes de Mille, Play With Your Food, Staged Reading Magic, Albert Hague.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense1 (20s):If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? As more space is actually a huge thing.2 (36s):Yeah. I have to apologize for the sound of buzz saws. What is going to be going the whole time I'm talking, doing well, you1 (50s):Took some trees down, right.2 (53s):You know, that's how it started. Yeah. It started with actually, you know, it all was a surprise to me, basically one we've been talking about taking down all the trees in the front of our house. And one day Aaron said, they're coming tomorrow to take down the trees. And I'm like, how much did that cost? Because you know, taking down trees is usually really expensive. And so he says, well, he's going to do everything in the front for whatever. It was $5,000.1 (1m 22s):Yeah. She was pretty good for more than one tree. Cause one tree we had removed was $5,000 at my mom's.2 (1m 28s):Well, and it's not like they have to extract the whole tree. It's just, you know, just chopping it down. Like it's not, I don't know if it's different when they have to take out the, yeah,1 (1m 38s):I think it is when they have to take the stump out the roots and all that.2 (1m 43s):So that was fine. Although I did think to myself, Hmm. We have $5,000 to spend and this is what we're spending it on.1 (1m 54s):I've been there. Oh, I've been there2 (1m 56s):So the morning, but I'm letting it go. And so the morning comes and he tells me to go outside so we can talk about the trees and, and, and I, anyway, we, we designate some trees and they're all in the lower part of the front of our house.1 (2m 10s):Yes. You, and by the way, for people that don't know, like you have a lot of land for, for, for, for not being in the super super country, you have a lot of courage. I mean, you got a lot of trees.2 (2m 21s):Well, yeah, we have an acre and it's a lot of trees and it's a lot of junk trees. What they call junk trees. Because the idea here is once upon a time, when everybody got their heat from wood, you had to have fast growing trees. So it's these skinny trees. Yeah. Anyway, so I thought we were sort of on the same page about what we were going down. This is where I'm getting with this. And I had a couple of meetings yesterday and I was hearing the sound pretty close, but it wasn't until I looked outside that I saw, they took everything out.2 (3m 1s):The, every living thing out in the, in the front, in front of our house, including the only tree I was really attached to was I have a beautiful lilac tree.1 (3m 14s):Okay. Oh shit. And everything out.2 (3m 21s):What's that? Why they1 (3m 22s):Take everything out? Is that the plant? I think,2 (3m 25s):I think what happened was for the first couple of days, the boss was here. And then I think yesterday, the boss was like, you guys just go and finish up. And I don't know that anyway, you know what, I'm just choosing it to be, I'm choosing to look at it like, okay, well we're getting to start over and it can be exactly how we want it to be. So yeah,1 (3m 45s):That is a great attitude because there's nothing you can do you really do about it? Absolutely. Zero. You can do about threes coming out.2 (3m 53s):The only bummer is that it sounds like buzz saws all day at my house and at my neighbor's house, I'm sure they're annoyed with us too. Well,1 (4m 2s):What are you going to put? It is. Okay. So, so, okay. The good, that's the sort of wonky news, but what the good news is, what are you going to put in? Like, is there going to be a whole new,2 (4m 12s):I think it's just going to GRA, I mean, I think it's just going to be grass, which is fine. I mean, my thing was actually, it does a little bit of a metaphor because when we first moved here, we loved how quiet and private and everything is. And part of why everything feels very private at our house is there's trees and bushes blocking our view of anything. I mean, all we can see is trees and bushes when we're laying on the front, which for a while seemed cozy. And then it started to seem like annoying that we could never see. And actually there's kind of a really beautiful view of the mountains behind us. So our mountains Hills.1 (4m 51s):Yeah. But I mean, small mountains, like small2 (4m 53s):Mountains. Yeah. So I realized that it does coincide with our psychological spelunking and trying to just be like more open about everything. Like totally. You know what I mean? Like this is just be open to people seeing our house. This is open to seeing out and let's have, and actually my kids were kind of like, oh, but it's just also open and we don't have any privacy. And I'm like, yeah, well you have your room and bathroom. I mean, there's, there's places to go if you don't want people to, to see you, but let's just be open.1 (5m 31s):There's like a whole, yeah. It's a great metaphor for being visible. Like I am all about lately. I have found a lot of comfort and refuge in the truth of the matter, even if it's not pretty, even if I don't actually like it. So like getting the facts of the matter and also sharing the, of the matter without a judgment. So I appreciate this, like wanting to be seen and then letting go of what people make of that, whether your house is this way or that way, or the neighbors think this or that, I'm also the, I I'm all about it.1 (6m 15s):I'm like, you know, this is, there's something about transparency. That's very comforting for me. It's also scary because people don't like it when they can see, or they can say whatever they want, but the hiding, I think I'm pretty convinced hiding from myself and from others leads to trouble.2 (6m 37s):It leads to trouble. And any time you're having to kind of keep track of what you're, you know, being open about and what you're not, and what you've said, you know, it just it's like it's T it's listen. If I only have a certain amount of real estate in my mind, I really don't want to allocate any of it too. Right. Hiding something and trying to remember. Right.1 (7m 1s):And it's interesting, the more that we do this podcast, the more I see that, like, you know what I thought gene, I thought when we're dead, this podcast is going to remain. And then our children's children's children. I mean, I don't have kids, but my nieces and nephew and your children's children's children will have a record of this. And, and I'd rather it be a record of the truth, the truth and transparency, then some show about pretending. So I think it's going to be good for them to be able to look back and be like, for me, it's like the, my crazy aunt, like, what was she doing? And what did she think? And, and, oh my God, it's a record of the times too.1 (7m 43s):Yeah.2 (7m 43s):I think about that kind of a lot. And I think about, of course I say all this and my kids are probably like going to be, have no interests unless the, until they get to a certain age, I mean, I'll put it to you this way. If I could listen to a podcast of my mother in her, you know, in the time that I don't really the time of life, certainly before I was born, but in my life where I still didn't see her as a person until, you know, I'd love to just things like what her voice sounded like then, and that kind of thing. I mean, it's interesting.1 (8m 16s):I have nothing of my mom, like we have a very few, it was interesting because we didn't, you know, we, there was not a lot of video of my mother and today's actually the 10th anniversary of her passing.2 (8m 28s):Oh, wow. Wow. That's hard.1 (8m 31s):It is hard. You know, it is hard. And I'm working through, I started therapy with a new therapist, like a regular LCSW lady. Who's not because my last guy was an Orthodox Jewish man who wanted me to have children. Like it was a whole new, I just got involved in all the Shannon Diego's of like weirdness. I attracted that weirdest and whatever. So this lady is like a legit, you know, therapist. And they only bummer is, and I totally understand she's on zoom, but like, I I'm so sick of like, I would love to be in a room with a therapist, but I get it. She's in, she's an older lady, which is also great. I was so sick of having like 28 year old therapists.1 (9m 13s):Yeah,2 (9m 13s):Yeah, yeah. For sure.1 (9m 16s):I don't even seem right. Unless clients are like, you know, fit seven to 17. So anyway, so, but all this to say about my mom, I was thinking about it and I think what's harder than right. My mom's death right now is that there's I just, you know, and this is something I wanted to bring up with you is just like, I have a lot of rage that's coming up lately about my childhood and we weren't allowed to feel rage. And my mom was the only one allowed to feel rage. And so this rage mixed with perimenopause slash menopause. I mean, like I still get a period, but like, it's, it's a matter of time before that's over.1 (9m 58s):So, but the rage, so I guess, right. I get, you know, people like to talk about rage as some or anger as something we need to process and we need to do this and that, but the truth of the matter is since we're being transparent, like rage can be really scary. Like sometimes the rage, I feel, it's not like I'm going to do anything. Why wonky? I hope, but it's more like a, I don't know what to do with it. That is my, and I was talking in therapy about that. Like, I'm not actually sure. Practically when the feelings come up, what to do with rage. And I feel like it speaks to in our culture of like, we're all about now, this sort of like, we talk about this fake positivity and shit like that.1 (10m 41s):And also like embracing all your feelings, but there's not really practical things that we learn what to do when you feel like you're going to take your laptop and literally take it and throw it across the room and then go to jail. Like you, you. So I have to like look up things on the internet with literally like what to do with my rage.2 (11m 1s):I think that's why that's part of my attraction to reality. Television shows is a, is a performance of rage. That's that I wouldn't do just because I don't think I could tolerate the consequences. I mean, an upwards interpretation is, oh, it's not my value, but it's really just like, I don't think I can manage the content of the consequences. I'm totally at having all these blown up1 (11m 30s):And people mad at me and legal consequences. I can't,2 (11m 35s):It's something very gratifying about watching people just give in to all of their rage impulses and it's yeah. I, it it's, it may be particularly true for women, but I think it's really just true for everybody that there's very few rage outlets, although I guess actually maybe sports. Well, when it turns, when it turns sideways, then that's also not acceptable.1 (12m 3s):Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's why I love all this true crime is like, these people act out their rage, but like lately to be honest, the true crime hasn't been doing it for me. It's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. It's sort of like, well, I've watched so much of it that like now I'm watching stuff in different languages, true crime. And I'll start again. No, no, just stories. I haven't all been the only stories that I haven't heard really, really are the ones from other countries now. So I'm watching like, like true crime in new, in Delhi.2 (12m 42s):Do you need your fix? I actually was listening to some podcasts that I listened to. There's always an ad and it's exactly about this. It's like, we love true crime, but we've heard every story we know about every grisly murder, you know, detail. And it was touting itself as a podcast of, for next time I listened to it. I'll note the name of it so I can share it with you. You know, about this crimes. You haven't heard about1 (13m 9s):T the thing is a lot of them now, because I'm becoming more of a kind of sewer. Like a lot of it is just shittily made. So like the, the they're subtitled and dubbed in India, like India. So you've got like the, the they're speaking another language and then they're and if they don't match, so then I'm like, well, who's right. Like, is it the dubbing that's right. Or the subtitles that are right. And, and actually the words matter because I'm a writer. So it was like one anyway, it's poorly done is what I'm saying in my mind. And so it sort of scraped scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like deli 9 1 1. I swear to God. That's what it, and, and it's, and also it's, it's horrifying because the, you know, the legal systems everywhere fucked, but India has quite a system.2 (13m 57s):I think that to the rage, like, tell me more about what comes up for you with rage and where you,1 (14m 6s):Yeah. Okay. So some of it is physiological, like where I feel literally like, and I think this is what my doctor's talking about. The menopause symptoms. I literally feel like a gnashing, my teeth. Like, I feel a tenseness in my jaw. Like, that's literally that. And she's like, that could also be your heart medication. So talk to your heart doctor. I mean, we're checking out all the things, but like, but it's tension. That's what it really feels like in my body is like tight tension where I feel earth like that. If I had to put a sound effect to it, it's like, ah, so I, I feel that is the first symptom of my rage. And then I feel like, and, and I say out loud, sometimes I hate my life.1 (14m 54s):That's what I say. And that is something I have never allowed myself to say before. Like I, I think unconsciously, I always told myself, like, you just, you have to be grateful and you know, those are the messages we receive, but sometimes life just fucking sucks. And sometimes my life, I just, I just can't stand. And, and in moments, you know, I never loved myself. So it's mostly a physical symptom followed by this is intolerable, what someone is doing. Sometimes my dog or my husband, but even, even if the coworking space, you know, like the lady was talking too loud and I was like, oh my God, this is intolerable.1 (15m 34s):She has to shut up. So agitation, that's what it is. And, and then it passes when I, if I, if I can say, oh my gosh, I am so fricking in Rouge right now. Then it passes.2 (15m 52s):Yeah. Well, it, it kind of sounds like from, from you and probably for most people, the only real option is to turn it in on yourself, you know, like you're not going to put it elsewhere. So you've, you know, you have, which is, so I guess maybe it's okay if you turn it on yourself, if you're doing, if you're working, if you're doing it with acceptance, which is the thing I'm gathering from you, as opposed to stewing and festering. And1 (16m 21s):I mean, it becomes, it's interesting. Yes, it is. So it's like, so red, hot, and so sudden, almost that the only thing I can do is say, okay, this is actually happening. Like, I can't pretend this isn't happening. I, it I'm like physically clenching my fists. And then I, yeah, there is a level of acceptance. I don't get panicked anymore. Now that I, that something is wrong. I just say, oh, this is rage. I name it. I'm like, I feel enraged and white, hot rage, and then it, and then it, and then I say, that's what this is.1 (17m 3s):I don't know why. I don't know where it's coming from. Right. In this moment. It's not proportionate to the lady, like literally talking on the phone at my coworking space that she's not shouting. So it's not that. And I don't want to miss that. I'm not like I can't fool myself to think that it's really, that lady's problem. That I feel like throwing my laptop at her head. And then, and then it passes. But, but, but it is, it is more and more. And, and I think a lot of it, not a lot of it, but you know, my doctor really does think that it's, it's hormonal. A lot of it just doesn't help the matter. I mean, it's not like, oh, great. It's hormonal. Everything's fine. But it, it does help to make me feel a little less bonkers.2 (17m 45s):Maybe you should have like a, a whole rage. Like what, like a rate. Well, first I was thinking you should have a range outfit. Like, oh, for me, if I, I noticed I pee in the winter anyway, I pick like my meanest boots and my leather jacket. When I'm feeling, you know, maybe say maybe kind of a rage outfit, when did Pierce?1 (18m 9s):No, I, I scratched myself in my sleep. Oh no, it's okay. It happens all the time. I do it in my sleep. It's a thing that it's like a little skin tag that I need to get removed. It's2 (18m 23s):So you could have a rage outfit and then you could have a rage playlist, And then you might even have like rage props. I'm just trying to think about a way that your ma you, you could write because if, if how you process something is artistically creatively, then maybe you needed a creative outlet that's specifically for, for race.1 (18m 48s):Yeah. And you know, the, I, I love that. And now I'm thinking about like, as a kid, we, because we, anger was so off limits to us. I used to violently chew gum. Like I would chew on the gum. That was a way, and my mom did the same thing, even though she also got her rage out, but it was like, you know, when people violently chew on their gum, like that was a way I could get my aggression out. That's so sad that that's like the only way.2 (19m 16s):Well, I mean, you find it wherever you can find me. It's like water looking for whatever that expression is, right? Yeah. Huh. Well, I have to get more in touch with my rage because I I'm told that I seem angry a lot.1 (19m 33s):You do.2 (19m 35s):I, I do get told that, but, but that sucks for me because I feel like I'm not expressing my anger and I'm, but I'm not. So I'm not, and I'm being seen as angry at certain times. So that means I didn't even get the benefit of like letting out the anger that somebody is.1 (19m 56s):Right. You didn't even get to act out the anger. It's like, yeah. So for me, miles tells me that all the time, like, he's like, you seem really in couples therapy. Also, I have to admit yesterday was a big day. We had couples therapy on zoom. Then I had individual therapy. And in between I had all kinds of like, just stuff happening. So, but yeah, I'm told I a miles is like, you seem so angry and he's not wrong. And, and we take it out on the people that we live in a two by four apartment with. So I also feel like this office space is helping with that, but yeah, I dunno, I'm going to have to keep exploring my, my rage and that's what it is.1 (20m 37s):And also it is like, I am the character in where the wild things are that kid, that is what I feel like. And it feels it's like the perfect cause he wants to gnash his teeth and, and he does, and a thrash, thrash, thrashing mash, or the words 2 (21m 6s):Let me run this by you that I wanted to do when we're going to talk to Molly that we didn't get to do. And it was based on made, you know, and just about money and, and wondering like what your relationship is right now with money. And also, but when were you at your lowest with money? What do you remember as being your lowest moment? Sure, sure. With money with money.1 (21m 40s):Okay. I have moments of what first comes to mind was when right. I was at DePaul. So it's an apropos in college and there was obviously a sense. I had a sense of lack, always, even though based on whatever, but it was phone. Somehow my accounts were always negative, right? Like, and I would call the number, the banking number, incessantly to check, and it would always be negative. So I have this panic thoughts about that. Like being a time of like, and that's not the only time that happened like that.1 (22m 23s):Where, what is the feeling? The feeling was that, and this was in college where it started to happen, where I felt like there's never enough. No, one's going to help me. I'm irresponsible with money. Was the message I told myself and I probably was, I was in college, but I can't handle money. And literally that, that panic was also, I mean, it was true. I had no money, but my parents would have backed me, probably helped me out, but I was too scared to ask for help. So that's like, that's when, when you asked that question, that's where I go.1 (23m 4s):But, but that's also a college kind of me. So like in terms of an adult, me, that's a really great, great question. My lowest, I don't know. What about you?2 (23m 22s):Well, I've got a lot of Loma Loehmann's moments with money when I was in high school. The thing was, I lost my wallet all the time.1 (23m 35s):Oh, I remember this. I remember you talking about,2 (23m 38s):Yeah, that'd be still lose stuff all the time. That actually started at a young age with, you know, my mom would, she, my mom was really into jewelry and she would buy me destroyed. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that she brought me jewelry, but I lost it. You know, she buy me nice gold jewelry1 (23m 59s):Because she likes nice things. That's right. Yeah.2 (24m 4s):In college it was pretty bad. And the first time it was pretty bad. I had to move back in with my mom because I couldn't afford rent. And then the second time I just, I re I really, if I had more bravery, I probably would have signed up to be one of those girls in the back of the Chicago reader. Like, I, I, I just figured what ha how literally, how else? Because I had a job, but I only worked however much I could work given the fact that we were in rehearsals and like busy all day, so I never could make enough money. And then I just, I think I always have had a dysfunctional relationship with money.1 (24m 51s):Wait a minute, but I have to interrupt. Why, why didn't our parents fucking help us? Okay. Look, I know I sound like a spoiled asshole brat, but like, when I think of the anxiety that we were going through and I know your mom did, so I'm not going to talk shit about your mom or anything, but I'm just saying like, why did we feel so alone in this when we were so young, this is not right.2 (25m 11s):Yeah. Well, my mom did help me out as much as she possibly could, but I think part of it too, my dad certainly didn't think it was that. I mean, when my mom was 18 and my dad was 19, they bought a house and had a baby. So I think part of it is, has been like, what's the matter with you? Cause I didn't go to college, you know, that's the other thing. So, so then when I, then I had a period for like 10 years where I always had three jobs, me two, what1 (25m 46s):Did you have enough then? I mean like, could you make rapid enough?2 (25m 49s):I had enough then yeah, I had enough then. But then when Aaron decided he wants to go to medical school, it was really on me to, to bring in the income. I mean, his parents always gave him money. They helped, it was a lot more. I mean, and actually it's why he became a therapist because I thought, well, we're going to be living with no income because he's going to be a student. Right. So I better giddy up and get a job. So the whole time I was in social work school, I was bartending. I remember that. And then I went quickly into private practice so that I could make money.2 (26m 29s):And it turned out to be, it turned out to backfire on me. Tell1 (26m 35s):Me, tell me, tell me more.2 (26m 37s):It backfired in two ways. Number one, I was, I shouldn't have been operating a private practice without my LCSW. I had my MSW and I was working at the time in a psych hospital. And all of the psychiatrist said, you should start your private practice. You should start your private practice. And I remember saying at the beginning, I don't know if I'm allowed to oh yes, yes. You definitely can. I know tons of MSWs into plenty of people and it's true. I don't know if it's still true now in New York, but at that time you could walk around and see plenty of nameplates for offices where somebody in private practice and that just have an MSW.2 (27m 18s):They just had to have a supervisor1 (27m 19s):Or something.2 (27m 22s):I don't know. Okay. I dunno. Right. So that ended up coming to haunt me when a disgruntled patient. And they're all disgruntled in some way, a family who actually had been swindled by a con artist, like they, they were a blue blood, rich ass family and they got swindled by a con artist. And so they were talking about rage. They had a lot of rage about that. When this guy who was paying for his daughter's treatment, didn't think it was going where, you know, he wanted it to right.2 (28m 4s):He started pushing back about the fee and then he was submitting to his insurance company and they were not reimbursing because I didn't have the LCSW. So then he reported me to the New York state office of professional discipline or1 (28m 21s):Whatever yeah.2 (28m 21s):Regulation or whatever. Yeah. And I ha I had to go through a whole thing. I had to have a lawyer and I had to go, yeah, yeah. It was a nightmare. It was a complete and total nightmare. And I, and I said nothing, but like, yeah, I did that. I did do that. And I did it because I needed to make the money. I mean, in some ways I don't regret it because I did it worked for the time that it worked. And then by the time it stopped working, I was ready to leave private practice anyway. Oh my God. Yeah. But then it also backfired because we were taking in this money, which we desperately needed living in New York city with two kids.2 (29m 3s):And, and we were, we were spending it all and not hold withholding any for taxes. So then that started, that started, that started almost 10 year saga of just, I mean, I, it's embarrassing to even say how much money we've paid in just in fees, compounded fees. Nope. I'm sure. In the last 10 years we've given the government a million dollars.1 (29m 29s):That sounds, that sounds about right. And you know, I think the thing with money too, is the amount of forgiveness I've need to muster up for the financial decisions that I have made. So one of them that I'm super embarrassed about is that, and I, and I hear you when it's like, yeah, I, it, it's embarrassing. I, I, when I did my solo show, I inherited the year that my mom died. My great aunt also died, who I very barely knew. And I inherited like, like a lot of money. Well, to me, a lot, like 50 grand from her, and I spent 15,000 on a publicist for my solo show that did nothing.1 (30m 14s):So I was swindled. Oh,2 (30m 17s):I'm so sorry to hear that. That really did nothing.1 (30m 22s):I could have done it all on my own. I could have done it all on my own, on drugs, in a coma. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, come on. So I have done made some questionable decisions. I did the best we did the best we could with, with the information that we all had at the time. I would never make that decision. I wouldn't, I will never make that mistake again. So yeah. Money is very, very, obviously this is so like kind of obvious to say, but it is, it is. So it is a way in which we really, really use it to either prize or shame ourselves. Right. And, and, and w I do it either way, like I do it.1 (31m 2s):Oh, I'm so fancy. I inherited this dough. And then I also do it. It's that thing that they talk about in program, which is like, you're the worm, but you're the best worm for the festival, special worms. And like, you're not a worker among workers. I'm just like the best idiot out there. It's like,2 (31m 18s):Dude. Yeah. And you're making me realize that money might be the only very quantifiable way of understanding your psychology list. The money is like, understanding your psychology through math. It's going okay. If you're a person like me who gets offered a credit card at age 20 totally signs up and, and immediately maxes it out at whatever, to get 27% interest rate. So whatever little thousand dollars of clothes I got, I probably paid $10 for it. And for the longest time. So, so that's me being afraid of the truth of my financial situation, being unwilling to sacrifice, having, you know, whatever, cute clothes being about the immediate gratification of it all and not thinking longterm.2 (32m 15s):Yeah.1 (32m 16s):Okay. Well, not asking for help either. Like, like, I don't know who I'd asked, but someone had to know more than me. I didn't ask my parents. They didn't really know what was happening at, or that just was their generation of like, not teaching us about money. It was sort of like, good luck. Get it together. We got it together. You get it together. Okay. Fine. But like unwillingness and fear to ask, to be taught something about money. Like, I didn't know, Jack shit about credit or interest Jack shit.2 (32m 46s):Yeah. And I recently realized that I'm basically redoing that with my kids, because we supposedly have this allowance. Only one of my kids ever remembers to ask for it because you know, only one of my kids is very, you know, very interested in money, but like, in a way I can understand why the others don't because it's like, well, anytime they want something, I pay for it. I never say sometimes I'll say recently, I've gotten better about saying, if we're going to go back to school shopping I'll especially if the oldest one, I'll say, this is your budget. If you, if you spend it all on one pair of sneakers, then I hope you're okay with your sweat pants that don't fit and wear them everyday for the rest of the school year.2 (33m 31s):Right. But it's, we've, we've just been extremely inconsistent in tying, like, for example, chores to your allowance,1 (33m 42s):It's fucking miserable and hard. And I have trouble doing that for myself. I wouldn't be able to do that for my children. If I had children, I can't not give the dog people food. What are you talking about? How am I going to bring it? Doesn't shock me. We didn't learn the skills and I'm not blaming. I mean, I'm blaming, of course my parents, but I'm also just saying, it's just the facts. If we're going to be that in the truth, like, I didn't learn, I didn't educate myself and nobody educated me. So I'm really learning through trial and error. Mostly error, how to be okay with money. And it is you're right. Like finances, romance, and finance teach us the most about our psychology.2 (34m 24s):Yeah. Yeah. Romance finance. I love that. 1 (34m 28s):I think that my boss at Lutheran social services to say all the time, finance and romance, romance, and finance, that's what all these addictions are about is that's how you see them. I'm like, she's right. I mean, she was, I liked her. She was bonkers, but I liked her. She said some good. She, she also is famous for saying, and she didn't say it, but she would always quote, the, no one gets out of here alive. You know, none of us getting out of here life, we might as well start2 (34m 54s):. Well, today on the podcast, we were talking to Carol Schweid and original cast member of the original production of a chorus line on Broadway. She's got great stories to tell she's a fascinating person. And I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Carol Schweid. Exactly. Carol shrine. Congratulations. You survived theater school. I did. You did.2 (35m 34s):And where did you go to theater school. Okay. First of all,3 (35m 38s):Let me just take my coffee, my extra coffee off of the stove and put it on my table. Cause it's gonna burn because we don't want that.4 (35m 51s):Okay. You're I am looking for a cop. If you have one, you know, this is ridiculous.3 (36m 2s):Hi there. Hi. This is a riot that you talk about surviving theater school. I think it's great. Okay. So this is working, right? You can hear me. Yeah, no, totally. A hundred percent. So this is my, I started college at Boston university. I was an acting major, which I loved. I really did, but I, what I loved more than anything was I loved the history of the theater. We had a great professor who told the tales of the gladiators and the, you know, the gladiators on the island and the fighting, and then the island, the survivors, and then the island would slowly sink into the water.3 (36m 45s):What is this? What did I miss? It was the early history of the theater. It was starting on the church steps. It was, you know, the second, whatever all of that history was, I found it really interesting. I also loved the station shop crew stuff. I liked learning about lighting. I was terrible at it. I, you know, I would fall off ladder, but I, I, I enjoyed the backstage stuff as much as I enjoy. I just, I liked it. I, we did the rose tattoo and my, and my first job was to take care of the goat. I was on the prop crew.3 (37m 28s):I took care of the goat. Was it a stuffed goat? No, it was a real goat. Wow. What can I tell you? The rose tattoo. There's a goat in the play. I didn't realize you could have livestock and colleges, college, whatever it was. I look like I have jaundice with is that something's wrong with the light jump I sent you stop your, where is the microphone part of your, do you want me to hold it up better? Because when you move, it hits your shirt and it makes like a scratching, right? That's right. I'll do it this way. I won't move around. When you look tan, you look, you don't like jaundice at all. Okay. Well then that's all right. Good. Thanks. Were the goat handlers.3 (38m 8s):Good to talk to you. I mean, that was, and I didn't mind, I didn't mind being an usher. All of those things, you know, I remember somebody sitting us down and saying, you're you are the first person. The audience we'll meet tonight as an usher. I took all of the stuff I did, but the acting business was very confusing to me. I didn't quite know. I had done a lot of theater and dancing and been in the shows and stuff, but I really, I was a little more of a dancer than an actor. I'd taken class in the city. I'd followed some cute guy from summer camp to his acting class. But half the time, I honestly didn't understand a word.3 (38m 48s):Anybody said, I just, nobody does. I really didn't get it so much at the time I loved it, but I didn't always get it. And for some reason, and I have no idea where this, why this happened. I had a boyfriend in summer stock whose mother worked at Barnard and her best friend was a woman named Martha Hill. Martha Hill ran the dance department at a school called Julliard. Nope. I had no idea. Cool. Just a little, nothing school. This is back in the day. It's a long time ago. It was just a plain old school. It wasn't like a school, you know, where you bow down. And I really was a very good dancer and always loved dancing.3 (39m 33s):You know, I've been dancing since I'm like a kid, a little five or six or whatever. So I was a little disenchanted with my successes at Boston U even though I had friends, I was having a great time. I mean, Boston in the late sixties was amazingly fun, but I felt like I wasn't getting it. I mean, it wasn't a school that was cutting people. Thank God, because that would have been torture. I don't know how anybody survives that, but I audition for this dance department in this school called Juilliard and got in and then told my parents that I was going to change colleges. I remember making up a dance in the basement of my dorm in Boston.3 (40m 17s):Cause you had a sort of take class and then you had to show something that you should have made up. And somebody else from college was leaving school to come to New York to be a singer. So we decided we were going to be roommates. And then we had a summer stock. Somebody at BU started some summer theaters. So I had a job or two, I think I had some friends from there. So I ended up moving, changing colleges and going to Juilliard. And I spent three years there. I was a modern dancer major. So we had the Limone company, including Jose Lamone wow teachers and the Graham company.3 (40m 59s):I mean, Martha, Martha Graham did not teach, but her company did as a winter and Helen, I was Helen McGee. One of the, they were maniacs. I mean, they're, they're like gods and goddesses and their whole life is about dance. And I was one of those demonstrators for her eight o'clock beginning class, my third year of school. I mean, I, it was all about technique. We had amazing ballet teachers. We had Fiorella Keane who, I mean, Anthony tutor taught class there and he was Anthony. I mean, so I got a out of being at that school that I have never lost. I mean, I can, I'm making up the answers for high school kids now really.3 (41m 42s):I'm just finishing up a production of grease, which is really kind of boring, but whatever I liked Greece, tell me more. Yeah. It's okay. If you hear it enough, you really get sick of it. Well, that's true. Yeah. I mean high school kids doing high school kids is like, Jesus, God, you just want to slit your throat. The moodiness when it comes to the girls. I mean, I love them. I really love them. I love the guys because puppies, they fall all over each other and they're fabulous, but that's a lie anyway. So I did something that I don't know why I did it and how it worked out. That way I left. I had a very best friend in college that was, you know, and I came to New York and made, made and shared an apartment with this slightly crazy woman.3 (42m 32s):And a year later I got myself a studio apartment on west end avenue and 71st street. And my mom co-signed the lease. And I spent three years dancing, honestly dancing almost every day. I wanted to take sights singing, but they wouldn't let me because I was in the dance department. And I didn't know, you could advocate for that. Sure. I didn't know. You could take classes at Columbia. I mean, who had time anyway, but was it a three-year program? It was a four year program, but I had taken a music class at BU that was like music appreciation one. Yeah. And for whatever reason, they gave me credit for that.3 (43m 14s):So I had a full year credit. Yep. Three years of Juilliard where I really worked my tail off. What's weird about it is that I am, you know, just a plain old Jewish girl from New Jersey, you know, a middle-class Jewish girlfriend. And to, to think that I could have a profession where people don't talk and don't eat, which is what the answers do is a riot to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's an absolute riot because you know, I mean, that should be basically the manual for dancers. Don't talk, don't eat, but I always knew that I was heading to Broadway. I really have always wanted to do that.3 (43m 55s):And I, and, and w was not really ever in question that I would, I somehow assumed if I worked hard and figured it out enough, I would find my way to working on Broadway. And I, and I made the right choice in the sense of switching colleges. Because in the seventies, if you look at your list of Broadway shows, all the directors were choreographers. They were all dancers, all of them Fauci, Michael Bennett champion, all of them. So I started working when I got out of school, you know, it was, and I had already done a couple of summers of summer stock and I did a summer Bushkill pencil, you know, these ridiculous, stupid theaters all over, but it was a blast.3 (44m 36s):It was fun. Where, what was your first job out of school? I was still, I was in school and it was the Mount Suttington Playhouse, which was like a tin shell in Connecticut. And I think it was still in college. Cause two guys from school had opened this theater at the skiing place, but it wasn't skiing. Then it was a sh it was like a tin shell. So couldn't really do a show when it was raining very well. And I believe it was stopped the world. I want to get off and I can still remember the Alto harmony to some of the songs. So you okay. Wait, so you don't consider, you didn't consider yourself a, an actor or did you?3 (45m 20s):Well, I did, but I think what happened was I had to audition for something. It'd be you like, they had grad programs and it wasn't that I was unsuccessful there, but somebody came and I didn't get cast. I didn't get hired. And I didn't understand, you know, like they give you all these acting exercises. We do sense memory. Well, I didn't know they were exercises. I didn't, they were they're like plea aids. Right. They're like learning things. I took this all very seriously. I would stand in a room and try to feel it was like that song from chorus line, you know, try to feel the emotion, feel the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (46m 5s):I did all of that. I didn't really understand the simple, what am I want here? And what's in my way of trying to get it. Yeah. It took me so long to find teachers that I really could understand and make me a better actor. So when did you find them? When did you start to find them? Oh, that's interesting. Well, I found a couple of good teachers in New York. I mean, honestly there was a woman named Mary Tarsa who had been in the group theater and an older lady. I mean, it's a long time ago anyway, you know, but I remember sitting in her class and she would talk about using imagery and th and I started to sort of understand a little bit, which is amazing to me because after I moved to Westport and I met, do you know the name Phoebe brand?3 (46m 58s):Yeah. Phoebe brand was in our theater workshop. Oh, taught a class. She was already up in her eighties and she taught a class, a Shakespeare class on Sunday mornings. And all of a sudden these things that I didn't understand from decades before. Hmm. It sort of pulled it all together. But for me, I went, I was in California after I got married and moved to LA for a couple of years, found a teacher named John LAN and Lee H N E and two years in his class. I started to really understand how to do it. And then when I came back to New York, he sent me to Michael Howard and Michael Howard, Michael Howard was a great teacher for me.3 (47m 44s):He's still a great, I don't know if he's still around if he's teaching or not, but he was a wonderful teacher. And I started to understand how to do it. Was Len the, did he teach the method or what was yes, he was, he was an actor studio teacher. And I started to understand about being present on the stage and being able to deal with people. All of it, it just changed dramatically. I mean, I started to understand what this was about and seeing other good actors and chipping away at it and finding people to rehearse with. And1 (48m 22s):You, you, from what I know, and what I'm gathering is that once you graduated Juilliard, you were cast in New York.3 (48m 30s):Well, you know, I did get my very, my V I I've. I mean, I, I remember going to see midnight cowboy, which was about the same time as I got out of college. And I remember going into a terrible panic of, oh my God. I mean, really scared about all of it. And I, I went, I joined a class that a friend of mine, somebody told me about this class, you know, I always follow somebody to a class. I'm always, I have good friends. And I, somebody says, oh, I love this guy come to class and I'd show up.3 (49m 12s):And this was a musical comedy singing class, kind of where there were writers in the class and actors in the class. And the writers in the class would work on a musical that they didn't have permission for. It wasn't like they were, we were doing this for money or for, for future. So my friend who I became friends with wrote her musical version of barefoot in the park and which has never been done, but I remember I was in it and this guy was in it. And we, it was the kind of a class where it was a very warm, funny group, funny group of wacko theater people. And I would go to open calls and I'd usually go to open dance calls because that was a door for me.3 (49m 59s):And also I used to have to sneak out of Jew, not sneak necessarily, but essentially sneak out to take my singing lessons. And I took singing lessons every, you know, every week for years, for three years, I would, you know, and I, and I was not really, I don't think a very good singer, but I became a good singer. I would sneak out of school and go to an acting class. I don't even know when I started that, but I know that I would find the time to do it and then talk about acting and find a teacher so that when I would audition for a musical and I would get through the dancing. Usually if I got through the first cut, I would make it to the end. I wouldn't always get the job, but if I made it through that first horrible, random cut, you know, where there's 200 people in your dancing across the stage and it's yes, no, yes, no.3 (50m 47s):Is it really?1 (50m 48s):Because I'm not a dancer. So I never had this. I, when my agents are like, oh, there's an open dance call. I'm like, ah, that's you sent the wrong person, the email. So it's really like that, like in, in chorus line where they say, you know,3 (51m 1s):Oh yeah. It's like all that jazz. It's really like that.2 (51m 6s):Wait, I have a question. I want to hear the re the rest of that. But I, I just, I've never asked anybody. What's the biggest difference between the people who got cut immediately. I mean, was it training or were there people that, in other words, were there people who were just walking in off the street with no training trying to audition? Yeah,1 (51m 29s):No, truly an open call.3 (51m 31s):No. And sometimes these were equity calls. Cause I, I, I did get my equity card on a summer. That one summer I worked for a non-union, you know, we were in either Bushkill Pennsylvania or Southern Eaton Connecticut, or I did a couple of those summers. And then the next summer, the choreographer from that show had an equity job. And he hired like three of us from our non-unions summer stock, because we were good enough. And1 (52m 4s):So when you went to these open calls, everyone, there was a bad-ass dancer. No one, there was like,3 (52m 10s):That's not true. That's not true. There were all different levels of dancers, but it was also a look await, you know, it was always, I was always like seven pounds overweight. It was like, the torture is thing of weight does enough to put anybody over the edge1 (52m 26s):That they literally3 (52m 27s):Weigh you, Carol. Oh God. No. Oh, but it's so look, and I will tell you there's one. There was one time when I remember auditioning for above Fossey show and there were a lot of people on the stage and we were whatever we were doing. And then at 1.3 Fossey dancers, it was their turn. And these three gals, okay. Their hair was perfect. Their makeup was fabulous. They had a little necklace, they had a black leotards, you know, cut up high, but not out of control. Good tights, no, no runs, nice shoes, nails done.3 (53m 7s):And they were fantastic. They were clean. They were technically, and we all sort of went, oh fuck.1 (53m 16s):Right.3 (53m 18s):Right. And I have friends who became Fossey dancers. I mean, I worked for Bob, but I have friends who did a lot of shows him. And they had that same experience where they saw other people, the way it should be. And then they would go back a month later and get the job because they knew what it took. It was all about knowing what it takes. But the thing about having studied acting and having slowly studied singing is that in the world of musical theater, I was ahead of the game because there's not that much time. So you have to be willing to spend all of your time.3 (54m 0s):Right.1 (54m 1s):There are some people I'm assuming Carol, that could dance wonderfully, but couldn't do the singing and the acting part. And that's where you were like, that's the triple threat newness of it all is like, you could do3 (54m 12s):Well, I could do them better than a lot of people. And I certainly could sing well, and I had, I could sing a short song and I knew that you sing a short song. I knew that you'd probably do an uptempo, you know? And also I tend to be a little angry when I go into an audition. It's like, why do I fuck? Do I have to audition? I better, duh. So I needed to find things that allowed me to be a little angry so I could be myself. And I could also be a little funny if I could figure out how to do that. So all of these things worked in my favor. And then of course, like everybody else in her, a lot of people, pat Birch, who was a choreographer, she had like a gazillion shows running, including Greece on Broadway. And now over here, I don't know if she did grease, but she did over here.3 (54m 55s):She did. She was very prolific choreographer. She had been a Martha Graham dancer and she had taught a couple of classes at Julliard. And when it came to my auditioning for her, she needed girls who could dance like boys. She didn't need tall leggy, chorus girls. We were doing the show she was working on, was a show called Minnie's boys. And it was a show about the Marx brothers and the last number of the show. We were all the whole chorus was dressed up like different Marx brothers. And she needed girls who could be low to the ground, who can, you could turn who and I was the right person.3 (55m 36s):And I remember being in that class, that wonderful musical theater class with a teacher named Mervin Nelson, who was just a great older guy who kind of worked in the business. I remember I had to go to my callback. I went to my class and the callback was at night. And I remember him walking me to the door, putting his arm around me and saying, go get the job. And if you don't get this one, we'll get you. The next one1 (56m 4s):That makes me want to3 (56m 4s):Cry. Well, it made me feel like part of the family, cause we all want to be part of that theater family. And so I tend to do that when I'm with an actor, who's going to go get a job or go get, you know, you want to feel like it's possible. Yeah. You feel like you can, you deserve it.1 (56m 29s):You said, you mentioned briefly that you worked for Bob3 (56m 32s):Fossey. I did.1 (56m 35s):Oh my gosh. Did you turn into one of those ladies that looked like a bossy dancer too? Like, did you then show up to those auditions? Like, oh3 (56m 43s):No, I don't think I, I couldn't, I didn't, I could not get into a chorus of Bob Fossey, but I did get to play for strata in Pippin in the, in the, in the first national tour. And he, Bob was the, he was the director and I, I knew I was the right person for that job. It was also a funny, kind of lovely circumstances that I was in some off-Broadway an off-Broadway show that had started as an awful off, off of a, that, that Bubba, that moved to an off-Broadway theater. I got some excellent reviews. And I think the day the review came out was the day I had my audition for Bob Fossey.3 (57m 24s):So I, and I played it. I had talked to people who knew him. I talked to, you know, I, I knew that I, I don't know, I just, I, I had done some work and I just, I don't know the right person at the right time, somebody, he needed it. That part required a good dancer. Who could, I don't know how I got the part. I just,1 (57m 57s):I'm kind of getting the impression that we're talking about being a strong dancer.3 (58m 0s):Well, let's strong dancer. And also being able to, being able to talk and sing was really the key. I'm not sure that I certainly, as a young person, I, I didn't do nearly as much comedy as I did when I got a little older, but, and also there were a lot of divisions. You sort of either did musicals or you did straight plays and it was hard to get into an audition even for a straight play. And the truth is I think that a lot of us who thought we were better than we were as you get better, you see when you really, wasn't a very strong actor.1 (58m 43s):Right. But there's something about that. What I'm noticing and what you're talking about is like, there's something about the confidence that you had by maybe thinking that you might've been a little better than you were that actually behooves young actors and performers that, you know, cause when Gina and I talked to these people were like, oh my God, they have a healthy ego, which actually helps them to not give up as where I was like, I'm terrible. I'm giving up at the first hour.3 (59m 9s):Exactly. Right. Right. And, and it, and it goes back and forth. It's like a CSO one day, you feel like, oh yeah, I'm good at this. I can walk it. I get, I'm like, I'm okay with this. And the next day you just to hide under the bed, I think that's sort of the way it goes. I didn't know that people who worked on Broadway even then all had coaches and teachers and support systems and you know, being kind of a little more of a lone Wolf, which I was, and still fight against in a way I come against that a lot, for whatever reasons, you know, whatever it doesn't work, what to be a lone Wolf.3 (59m 54s):Yeah. Yeah. You can't do this alone. You can't do it without a support system. It's just too hard because when I actually had the best opportunity I had, which was being part of a chorus line, it was harder than I thought to just be normal, come up with a good performance every night, you know, it was up and down and loaded and that you lost your voice and had nobody to talk to because you couldn't talk anyway. And we didn't have the internet yet. You know, there was so many, it was so much pressure and so much, and I hadn't really figured out how to create that support system up for myself.3 (1h 0m 42s):And it was harder, harder than it needed to be. Did you ultimately find it with the cast? No. Oh, not really where they mean, oh, none of the cast was fine. It wasn't that anybody was mean it's that I didn't take care of myself and I didn't know how I was supposed to take care of my shirt. How old were you when you were cast in a chorus line? 27? Maybe I was, I was young and, but I wasn't that young. I just, but it wasn't that C w it was a strange situation to, I was, I had already had one Broadway show, so I had done, and then I had gone out of town to bucks county Playhouse.3 (1h 1m 25s):And did west side story Romeo was your first Broadway show. I'm sorry. It was called Minnie's boys. Oh, that was it. That was my, I did. And it was a show about the Marx brothers. Right. And I don't know if you know who Louis. We would probably do Louis Stadol and Louis J Staglin who works with, he works with Nathan Lane a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like second bun and he's incredibly talented. He played Groucho. Okay. We were all 25 years old. We were kids. We were right out of college. And the weirdest part of all was that the mother was played by Shelley winters. And this was a musical. What a weird you've really. Okay. So then you went onto chorus line.3 (1h 2m 6s):Well then, well then in between that, this is like, you know, then, then I went out of town to bucks county. I love being in bucks county for a year. We did west side story. We did Romeo and Juliet during the week. We do them together, one in the morning, one in the afternoon for high school kids. And then on the weekends, we do one of the, and I was the only person in the cast who liked dancing at 10 o'clock in the morning. You know, I didn't mind doing west side at 10 in the morning. I'd been up at eight, being a demonstrator for Mary Hinkson, teaching people how to do a contraction. So I didn't care. I love working in the daytime. That's what I play with your food is such a nice success. My lunchtime theaters here, I get tired at night.3 (1h 2m 47s):I don't know.2 (1h 2m 49s):Most people do wait. So was the, was the audition process for chorus line?3 (1h 2m 56s):I have a great story. I can tell you what my story is. Okay. So I, I was in, I don't know what I was doing. I had done a lot of off-Broadway work. I had been doing, I had been working a lot. And then of course there were the year where I didn't work. And then I went off to south North Carolina and played Nellie Forbush in south Pacific, in the dinner theater for three months. And I loved that. Actually, I think it was one of those times I had a job and a boyfriend and it was like a relief. It was wonderful to have like a life and then do the show at night. You know, I, I enjoyed that a lot and I didn't, you know, it was a big part and I didn't panic about seeing it.3 (1h 3m 37s):And it was just, I learned a lot from doing a part like that. I was doing Fiddler on the roof at a dinner theater in New Jersey, down the street from where my folks lived. And occasionally my mom would stop by her rehearsal and watch the wedding scene. Honest to God. I'm not kidding. She's like, Carol, you ever gonna get married? Are you ever gonna? Okay. So I'm doing Fiddler on the roof, in New Jersey. And there's a guy in the cast, one of the bottle dancers who were dropping off at night on 55th street, because he's working on this little musical about dancers and he would bring in monologues and he'd asked me to read them at rehearsal because he wanted to hear them out loud.3 (1h 4m 25s):And there was some stuff about this place to ever hear the peppermint lounge back in the studio. Right. It was a disco thing, but it was also a place where there was something. I remember one the couch girls, girls who would just lie on the couches and the guys, I mean really crazy stuff that did not make it into the show, but some interesting stuff. And I was playing the eldest daughter sidle, and it's a terrific part for me. So I was good. Yeah. And Nick knew I was a dancer. Anyway, this little show called the chorus line was in its workshop. Second workshop. They had already done the I, cause I was not a Michael Bennett dancer. I didn't, you know, I, I, I had auditioned for my goal once for the tour of two for the Seesaw.3 (1h 5m 10s):And it was the leading part and I didn't get it. I auditioned, I sang and I read and I read and I sang and I didn't get the part. And I came home and I was like in hysterics for like five days. I just, you know, I, I didn't get the part year and a half later, I'm doing Fiddler on the roof with Nick, Dante in New Jersey. And somebody leaves the second workshop and Nick brings up my name because there's a job all of a sudden to cover, to be in the opening and to cover a couple of parts next, bring up my name. And Michael Bennett says, wait a minute. I know her. I know she's an actress and she's a singer. Can she dance?3 (1h 5m 52s):So I showed up the next morning and I danced for 10 minutes and I got the job. I mean, I think, wow. Yeah. That's a great story.2 (1h 6m 1s):No. So that means you didn't have to participate in3 (1h 6m 4s):Callbacks or nothing. Oh, I started that day. I mean, honestly, it was Fiddler on the roof, you know what, I don't remember whether, how it went. Cause we were already in performance tour or something, you know, I, I it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember, but I know that this particular story is the absolute truth. That's fantastic. That2 (1h 6m 27s):Was it a hit right away3 (1h 6m 29s):Chorus line. Well, it wasn't, we were in previews. I'm no, we weren't even previous the second workshop, which means it was still being figured out. And when I came to the first rehearsal and sat and watched what was going on, I could not believe what I was seeing because the truth of what was happening on stage and the way it was being built was astounding. It was absolutely astounding because something about it was so bizarre. Oh. And also, also Marvin Hamlisch was the rehearsal pianist on Minnie's boys.3 (1h 7m 10s):Wow. So I knew him a little bit, not well, you know, but he was the rehearsal pianist that nobody would listen to a show about the Marx brothers, Marvin would say, wait, this is the Marx brothers. You got to have a naked girl running out of the orchestra pit. You gotta, you gotta, and of course, nobody would listen to him. Wait a minute, just turn this off, stop, stop, turn off. Sorry. So I couldn't get over what I was seeing. And I, I knew from the beginning, of course, I think most of us did that. Something very, very unique was going on and it was always changing. Like Donna McKechnie came in late at the audition, all dressed up in like a fur thing.3 (1h 7m 56s):And it was like, I'm sorry, I'm late. I'm sorry. I'm late. And then Zach says, would you put on dance clothes? And she said, no, no, wait a minute. Anyway, you couldn't help. But know sort of, you just kind of put,2 (1h 8m 8s):I mean, I remember seeing it when I was a kid and not, not being able to relate as an actor, but now that I think back, it just must've felt so gratifying to be seen for all of the, you know, because like we w the Joe Montana episode, we3 (1h 8m 28s):Haven't listened to yet, but I'm looking forward to2 (1h 8m 30s):It here today. But he was saying, I love3 (1h 8m 33s):Him2 (1h 8m 34s):For you. You were saying that when he won the Tony and everybody would say, well, it's like to win the Tony, what's it? Like he said, it's like, you won the lottery, but you been buying tickets for 15 years. You know, that's the part of acting that people now, I think it's a pretty common knowledge that it's really difficult to be an actor, but I don't know how Hmm, how known that was then. And it just, must've been so gratifying for all of those people. I mean, who are living in their real life? The story of that musical. Yeah.3 (1h 9m 9s):I think that that's true. And also, I mean, it really did come out of people's experiences. Those stories are so, so to be part of something like that, and down at the public theater, which of course it was a vol place to be, you know, you, you knew that Meryl Streep was walking down the hallway and you knew that. I mean, talk about confidence. I mean, I don't know if you've read her new book, no book about her. No, it's worth the time I listened to it. Actually, I didn't read it. I listened to, it's quite wonderful because you see a very confident person who's working on creating who she is.1 (1h 9m 47s):Do you feel, I feel like you have a really strong sense of confidence about yourself too. Where did that come from? Would you agree? First of all, that you have, it sounds like you had some comps, some real chutzpah as a youngster and maybe now as well. Where'd that come from3 (1h 10m 5s):Beats me. I have it now because I, I, I, I've had a lot of, a lot of experience. And I, I think that, that, I, I think I know a lot about this, but I don't know that I had it. The trick was to have this kind of confidence when it really matters. Yes. And I think I had it, like if I was in an off-Broadway show, I could say, I don't think that's good enough. Could you restage this blah, blah, blah. Or if I'm in North Carolina, I'm not, I think we need to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But when it comes down to the real nitty gritty of standing up for yourself, when it really, really matters, boy, that's harder than it looks.3 (1h 10m 51s):You know, even things like, I mean, my character, when I eventually took over the role of Miralis, which I under, you know, I was we've covered all these parts. There were nine of us. We sang in the little booth in the wings. We had microphones and little headsets. And the coolest part of all was Jerry Schoenfeld, who was the chairman of the Schubert organization would bring any visiting dignitary who was visiting the city that he was showing around his theaters. He would bring them into our little booth. And then we would watch the show from stage left in our little booth while we're singing, give me the ball, give him the ball. Cause half the dancers on the stage, cause stop singing because they had a solo coming up.3 (1h 11m 31s):So, you know, singing in a musical is not easy. You know, there's a lot of pressure and you got to hit high notes and you, you know, you just wake up in the middle of the night going torture, torture, and you have to work through that and finally go, fuck it. You know, fuck it. I don't care what I weigh. Fuck it. I don't care if I, if I can't hit the high note, but it, it takes a long time to get there. You know, I see people who do this all the time. I don't know how they live. I don't know how they sleep at night. There's no wonder people like to hire singers who have graduated from programs where they really understand their voice, know how to protect that, which you don't, you know, you have to learn, you have to learn how to really take.3 (1h 12m 24s):That's why, you know, it's wondering about ballet companies now have misuses and we didn't have any of that. You were hanging out there alone. I felt maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I felt. And if I was vulnerable or if I didn't feel well, and I was like, oh, what am I going to do? I can't tell anybo

In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace doesn't discuss any K-dramas at all. (She will resume next week.) Grace is feeling the breeze in her life because of some winds of change. Her guest is comedian and actor Fred Stoller (@fred_stoller) who was in Dumb & Dumber, Friends, Everybody Loves Raymond, Seinfeld, Rick & Morty, and countless others. Fred is also the writer and producer of the feature film Fred & Vinnie. Grace and Fred talk about his book Maybe We'll Have You Back, and the intense tapestry that is show business in Hollywood. They get into self-help books, meditation, heroes, and more. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Mummies vs. Zombies, cancer doulasLet Me Run This By You: Gina has projection issues. Interview: We talk to Joe Mantegna about Morton College, The Goodman School of Drama, Arthur Lessac, starting his career with HAIR, Dr. Charles McGaw, The Shubert Theater, Morton West High School, André De Shields, Jonathan Banks, Carrie Snodgrass, his close relationship with Bella Itkin, Geraldine Page, Eugenie Leontovich, Patrick Henry, playing Judas in Godspell, Organic Theater,  the Grease premiere at Kingston Mines theater, Jack Wallace, Medusa Challenger,  Stuart Gordon, the sci-fi play Warp!, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dennis Franz,  John Heard, Richard Gilliland, Meshach Taylor,  The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit, Esai Morales, Edward James Olmos,  Bleacher Bums, Robert Smigel, winning the Tony, Mandy Patinkin, his approach to ensemble acting, breaking news about  Criminal Minds!, House of Games, dealing with David Mamet's language, American Buffalo, Sexual Perversity in Chicago, A Life in the Theatre, William H. Macy, going up on his lines on opening night of Glengarry Glen Ross, Lindsay Crause, Nan Cibula-Jenkins, Vincent Gardenia, and why JOE MANTEGNA PREFERS TALKING TO US OVER THE NEW YORK TIMES! Hopefully, next time we'll get into the Jim Clemente of it all, about Southern Italian miners migrating to the American Southwest, and Wait Until Spring Bandini

In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace doesn't discuss any K-dramas at all. The drama for this week is just from being Korean American. In this episode, Grace talks to video artist, filmmaker, educator, and therapist Helen Hyunkyung Park (@parkhyunkyunghelen on Instagram). Grace and Helen's relationship dates back to 2009 when they were both Fulbright scholars in Seoul. This episode of K-drama school is meant for recharge, reset, reflection and reassurance. As you listen, remember to be present. Check in with yourself. How are you doing? What do you need? Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show One Spring Night (MBC, 2019), and its critique of patriarchy, domestic abuse, and status/image-obsessed parents who forgo their children's safety. Grace also mentions how Jung Hae-in and Han Ji-min lack chemistry in One Spring Night as opposed to how well Jung Hae-in meshed with Son Ye-jin in There's Something in the Rain. Grace's guest is LA-based comedian Kristal Adams (@thedarkkristal on Instagram and Twitter). Kristal has been on JFL and Laugh After Dark on Amazon. She won “Best of Fest” at the 2019 Big Pine Comedy Festival. Kristal hosts Black Card Rehab and produces her own show Overdue Comedy in Glendale, California. Grace and Kristal discuss bedtime story apps, introversion, energies, how men don't like women who know themselves, family trauma, a performer's need to shut off their brain, and what it's like to be a comedy nerd. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Boz is in the clear!Let Me Run This By You: secrets, scorched earthInterview: We talk to Chisa Hutchinson about her new film The Subject, Vassar, being a high school English teacher, NYU Tisch,  The Lark Play Development Center, New Dramatists, having a sleepover with Tina Howe, She Like Girls, Amerikin at the Alley Theatre, NYT reviews, 101 Reasons Not to Breed, Bad Art Friend, Haagen-Dazs, The Evansville Regional Airport, Three Women on Showtime, Lisa Taddeo, Playwrights as Screenwriters, Marsha Norman, Lynn Nottage, Tony Gerber, Richard Wesley, Stephanie Allain, Di Glazer, having an intentional career.COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT:Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8s):And Jen BosworthGina Pulice (10s):and I'm Gina .Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.Gina Pulice (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?Gina Pulice (33s):You don't have cancer.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (35s):No, I do not have cancer right now. Do not have cancer at this moment. Who knows the next week. Yeah, no, it was, it's been quite a thing. Like I, I, you know, right. My cousin Dalia, who is what become one of my best friends in our adult lives, which is amazing. I never had any family that like, I truly liked as people know, that sounds so terrible, but I know exactly like good friends. And she says, you know, the brain is a problem making machine and it is that's, you know, it's also solves them, but it also creates them.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1m 17s):And look, I'm not saying that that the ch that it wasn't possible that I had cancer, but like all the evidence pointed oh, right. The emotional evidence pointed to I had cancer. Like I made an emotional face based on my past and my parent, my mom's past and my dad's path. And I made a really strong case that I had cancer in my head and look, it's possible. So that's the other thing that is so, so compelling about the human condition. Is that like, and what Dr. Oltman used to say to me, it was like, look, you're not, you're not delusional. You're not psychotic. You're not, so you're not making up things that are like, aliens are going to come down and take you, your fears are based in, in things that have happened to you and other people and people you love.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 6s):So it's not as though this idea, this idea of like, you know, right. It can't happen. You know, like it, I know in my body of, you know, my body of work that I've done in my life, that people die all the time of cancer and get cancer all the time, as we all do, I have a more intimate knowledge is because I lost my mom from it and saw the actual process. But I'm here to say, like, if you're freaking out about things, most of the time they're things that have happened to you or other people. So they're valid freak freakouts. It's just that they don't actually happen to be true all the time.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 47s):So like weird.Gina Pulice (2m 49s):It's almost like you want to say, Thank you brain for protecting me because you know, you you've correctly picked up on the fact that when things are Sort of looking like this, it's, it means something bad, but you can relax now. Right. Because it's not that right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 7s):And it's actually not while I appreciate you brain, you're not always dealing with, with, with what's the reality, the truth. You don't, you don't. Yeah. You don't get an unfortunately brain. You don't get to, you're not a psychic, like you're just not, you have evidence. And then, so, so I had, you know, for, for our listeners, you know, like I had, I've had pain and history of weirdness on my left ovary. And it's really interesting. The cyst that is most, this is so crazy. This is how, this is what the brain does. So I'm like, okay, left side. I'm sure I have cancer on my leftover.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 48s):Like, that's, what's going on. It turns out the right one, the cyst is bigger. I have one on my right. They didn't see me yesterday or two days. And the, and the, the right one is bigger and actually contains more blood and fluid. I feel nothing on my right side. So that is also to goes to show that even if you do have cancer, it could be in a place that I don't. But like, you don't know where it's coming from. So like, even your feelings are wrong, your pain body is wrong. So like, you really don't know. So it was so funny. She was like, yeah, your left side, even though it's more active, there are a lot of simple cysts. So, you know, for this is like a women's health thing. Like people don't do any Reese. I shouldn't say that there's not a ton of research done because it's a woman's issue.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (4m 32s):So it's not like, unless it's breast cancer, like nobody gives a shit about like women's cancers usually. So, cause that that's what, you know, got all the funding. So, so, so cysts grow all the time, all the time and women, they come and they go, those are simple cysts. If you have endometrial cysts or complexes, that is not, they don't come and go. They just stay. So I have several on my left side that come and go one that stays. And one that stays on the right. They don't know what's actually causing the amount of pain, but they think it's probably the left one leaking. The other thing is like, I would have sworn I had a cyst, the size of a grapefruit. If you would've asked me, I would say, it's probably grapefruit size.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 15s):It's that? It's an inch on one of them. That's nothing. Well, I mean, it's not nothing cause the ovaries two inches, but like w it, you just can't always trust what your, what your feelings are. Like, it's valid, you're in pain. But like, you don't know what it looks like until, you know what it looks like. And I think that that's the whole thing I'm coming around to, which is just go to the freaking doctor, please, if you have the resource, even if you don't like find them create, I don't know, like ask somebody, but like, you know, and I've gone to plenty of free clinics and they're not glamorous and they're not exciting, but they, they, they still have an ultrasound machine, you know?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 56s):So like, get, get it, get shit checked out. If you can easier said than done. But if it's an emotional fear based response, that's stopping you and not a resource-based response, you got to work through it and go, even if it is resource-based, there are, you know, there are ways around that. But like, especially if it's, you have all the resources, but there is something internally in you that is going, I don't want to know, believe me, I get it. But you want to know, you really want to know it's the only way through anything is getting the data. It's so annoying, but it's true.Gina Pulice (6m 35s):I agree. 100% with what you're saying, and this is why people love to join cults because the fantasy, the thing that's being promised in a cult is there is a finite number of answers. I, the cult leader have, there is a clear path to the number of steps that you have to take to get, you know, it's, it's everything we wish life would be predictable or seemingly predictable controlled, highly structured, you know, without a concern like to be in a cult is to not be in a process of discovering what happens next.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (7m 24s):Exactly, Exactly. And it's so compelling. It is so comforting to think, oh my gosh, this person and this entity knows everything. I never have to worry again. That's really what we're saying is I never have to worry about anything. Again, the problem is it's just make believe. And you actually do have to worry because the person is usually a sociopath or psychopath and it doesn't actually do the trick. They think, you think it's going to do the trick. And it usually does the trick for a while for people like our guests, Noel was talking about like, it serves a purpose until you start questioning and then you're in real trouble because then it's like, how the fuck do I get out?Gina Pulice (8m 10s):Yeah, exactly. Well, I am very happy that you, I mean, I'm sorry that you're been in pain, but I'm happy. It's not for some worse reasons.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8m 19s):The other thing I have to say that is so interesting that I just wanted to, to, to me anyway, that I wanted to bring up was like, okay, I may not have in the Hollywood right now in the Hollywood industry, a team of people that are like on my side, but I'm S I swear to God, my medical team has, is filling that hole. So I just got an email from my cardiologists. Who said, your, your gynecologist thought you were amazing, loves you. How did it go? Like, that's the kind of messages I get from my, of medical experts. And so I read and I like started crying and I realized like, oh, I'm not getting it from my career team.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 3s):Like, I've talked about getting nasty emails from potential managers and stuff like that, but I am getting it from the medical team. They're like, amazing. They're like, you are the best. We love you. And I like,Gina Pulice (9m 17s):What if they gave awards for being a great patient?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 19s):I would Get something for Shot.Gina Pulice (9m 21s):You would get like a gynie award. I'mJen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 23s):Like the best guy, knee, patient,Gina Pulice (9m 26s):And the, and the, and the statue is just like, you know, the uterus.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 31s):Yeah. I mean, anyway, so that was really interesting to me. Cause I was really touched this morning when she wrote me. I'm like, who, what doctor, what? It's, she's a, she thought you were amazing. I was like, Hey, that's cool. Well, at least somewhat, you know what I mean? Like, I'll take this. It's so funny.Gina Pulice (9m 46s):Well, the truth is you are amazing. And the difference is with between people who know you and people who don't know you, I mean, that's just what it is. Like when people get to know you, not 10 out of 10 people who know Foz agree. She's amazing. It's just, you know, you have to convince people to get in the door. That'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 6s):It?Gina Pulice (10m 7s):Yeah. All right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 9s):I'm with you, my friend. How do you feel about all the post?Gina Pulice (10m 14s):It's just, it goes on. It's done. It's just a saga. Yes, we should.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 22s):We don't have to be explicit, but like you, you,Gina Pulice (10m 24s):I can be explicit because fuck those people,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 27s):Will you left an organizationGina Pulice (10m 28s):It's called Theatre Artists workshop. And I left them because aside from a handful of members and everybody that was on the board, it was one of the more toxic environments I've ever been a part of. And I quit. And I'm the only one who quit effective immediately. Everybody else is staying. Two people are staying on and then everybody else is staying through through 2021. But when I tell you the way that people are responding, we couldn't have crafted it better ourselves. If we said, let's, let's create, like, if we were making this movie and this whole conflict happened, we'd say now what's a way that people could respond.Gina Pulice (11m 17s):That would exactly prove the point of what they were saying toxic in the first place. And two, that the fact that most people are doing that and have zero awareness. So essentially what's happening is that people are reacting to our letter. That goes step-by-step and explains the ways in which we've been abused, right? People are responding to this with a combination of don't take things. So personallyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (11m 46s):Sure. Of course, that's the number one abuser thing to do,Gina Pulice (11m 49s):And just completely invalidating ignoring what we've said about the abuse. They, everybody finds something that's in the letter to take issue with and makes their whole thing about that or, and says nothing of, and by the way, I'm sorry, you were abused. Or, and by the way, you know, and people are saying, thanks, but I'm into this thing recently. I hollow gratitude. Miss me with your hollow gratitude. I don't care. I do not care. I could wallpaper my bathroom with your thank you is right. It's not what I need. I need you to change your behavior.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 28s):Absolutely.Gina Pulice (12m 29s):Forgive me if I said this to you already, but I'm likening it to, you know, when COVID happened and everybody puts a sign in their front yard saying, thank you, frontline workers. Yeah. And they're banging pots and pans at 5:00 PM in New York city. Like, and the frontline workers are going, I don't think I don't need your sign, like get vaccinated and wear your mask. Right. And everybody's like, I know, I know the,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 54s):Without a mask on and like at their concert. Right.Gina Pulice (12m 58s):That's exactly it. That's exactly right. And, and, and I shouldn't be surprised. We all myself included are kind of in a way, programmed to not see our own bad behavior and to not want to take responsibility, but it just goes on anyway. So, but it goes on in a way that I can choose how much I want to engage with.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (13m 18s):And also it's like it to me from the outside. It's so clear that you made the right choice. If this is the response, like they just proved, like you said, they proved the exact point there that's insane. And, and too, and you made the right choice. Like why would you stick around and be beaten down after you've made a stand? And then they continue to try to beat down that doesn't, that's insane if you stayed like that's insane.Gina Pulice (13m 44s):Yeah. Yeah. To give one just chef's kiss example. In our letter, we, we, one of the things that we said was when we tried to introduce our DEI policy, the very first thing we decided to introduce was content warnings. And we did it in the most careful way, like to, to hear about a content warning about something you're going to see presented at the workshop. You have to click down the email. Like you can choose not to see the content warning, right. Because everybody was complaining, it's art and we need to slap people in the face with it, whatever you can choose, whether or not.Gina Pulice (14m 25s):So it's literally like if I, if I'm allergic to peanuts, I'm going to read every nutrition label. Cause I want you to make sure that if I'm not allergic to peanuts, which I'm not, then I don't really need that information. It's no different than that. Right. That alone caused our first member to quit saying if he couldn't use, if he could, he could, if he could. I mean, it wasn't even related really to the content or if he couldn't use the N word, he couldn't theater and in that same evening.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (14m 57s):Bye, bye. See you later. You're not going to make theater. We're all not here. You're not gonna do it here. Thank you.Gina Pulice (15m 4s):Oh yeah. Two of our members who are from marginalized, societal groups got stood up or, you know, spoke that night and said the ways in which they've been marginalized at TAW. And that, I mean, it was crickets, not one single person gave any support. And we had listed that in our, in our letter. So this email we received from one of our members last night opened with I'm a board member of a condo complex. And we recently oversaw a renovation that made our building double in value.Gina Pulice (15m 44s):We, as a board, had to sit and listen to a tenant or what resident, whatever. Talk about the color of the paint in the laundry room for 30 minutes. And he bolds and underlines 30 all caps, 30 minutes. Okay. It goes, it goes along with being on the board and I thought, okay, so you're comparing you pace. Exactly. You're comparing.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (16m 15s):Bye bye, byeGina Pulice (16m 34s):Name and saying it all is because the thing I wanted to run by you this week is about secrets. I am. I'm all the way done with secrets. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not saying like, if you tell me something in confidence, I'm not saying I'm not going to keep that a secret seat. That's not the kind of secret I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kind of secrets where, you know, you know, so I, I have written personal essays that reference my family as personal essays do. And you know, and I'm sure a lot of it has rubbed people the wrong way. I in particular wrote an essay in which I compared somebody in my family to Scott Peterson and, and that person let me know in the creepiest possible way, which is to say this person that, yes, we just happened.Gina Pulice (17m 32s):We are not friends on Facebook. He's not even to my knowledge, this guy has zero social media presence. I receive, I open my phone. There's a notification. So-and-so liked your post. My heart skipped a beat. I mean, it was like my blood turned cold. I went, you had to scroll pretty far down on my timeline to find that post. And it's the only one he liked. Are you kidding me? Your face is exactly your face of surprise. That exactly. Thank you.Gina Pulice (18m 13s):Oh, I really appreciate you validating that. Okay.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 15s):That's so it's because two things you're super intelligent and also we like crime weirdness, but also it's fucking creepy.Gina Pulice (18m 26s):It's fucking creepy. That's weird by the way, about any post, if anybody who I'm not friends with on Facebook likes a post that's way down the feed.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 38s):Well, if that's something you're not friends with on,Gina Pulice (18m 42s):Yeah. The whole thing is creepy. The whole thing is 1000% creepy. So part of the thing that I struggle with in writing personal things is airing the dirty laundry, you know, telling the secrets. And I really do try to tell only the secrets that are mine. I really try not to tell anybody else's secrets, but in general, it's so exhausting to be in this perpetual state of protecting a bunch of people who would never protect.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 16s):There's the key. I mean, like, I think that's the kicker, right? It's like, and I think it speaks to a bigger issue. Like we're all protecting this in these institutional institutions and, and companies and things that are destroying us and we've been projecting them for years. And I think it speaks to why we started the podcast unknowingly is that to protect, we wanted to stop in our way and stop protecting institutions that harmed us whether some are assholes right out some aren't some are, but like institutions harm people. Like I just think that that's the way, right? That's just how it is. It's capitalism, it's democracy, whatever it is, they harm people.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 58s):So I think we're trying to shed some light on that and say, no, we're going to heal from that. And I don't think you can heal from it unless you really process it. And some of that is bringing the secrets into the light and no, and people don't like that.Gina Pulice (20m 12s):People don't like it. And you and I have had many conversations following interviews where we said, do we bleep this person's name? Do we cut this thing out? And with the exception of one person who we interviewed, who then said that they didn't want us to air the interview. Nobody has said, I regret saying that. Can you, and, and when they're here talking, I mean, we've encountered people feel such a freedom and a relief and they have no problem naming names. Right. And so it's been our thing of like, do we protect this person's identity? But the other thing is, here's the, here's the part in the whole dynamic that I'm trying to own for what I do in this, in this situation about the secrets and everything.Gina Pulice (21m 1s):I wrote something personal, I published it on our website. I promoted it on social media. Theoretically. I want everybody in the world to read it, except this one guy. Right? Like that's, that's my logic. There is, it's really flawed, right? Like if you're going to be brave, then you have to be brave. Right. You can't be brave only when it's convenient.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 31s):Right. I totally agree. I mean, I think that, and I think it's really great to have the conversations about like, okay, like who are we bleeping and why? And someone on, you know, on this podcast who we, I don't think we've bleeped, but she gets a lot of bad press as Susan Leigh.Gina Pulice (21m 50s):She really does get a lot of bad press.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 52s):I mean, and, and, and, you know, I'm like, man, should we have been bleeping or out, but,Gina Pulice (21m 59s):But she did it. I mean, it's her, she is the person who should be carrying around the shame for her behavior. Not the people who she harmed the, you know, it's not there. And that's the other thing that we have usually all the way backwards is that we make the people who experienced the pain, shut up about it. Yeah. It to, to protect us. And who did the pain. Yeah. Right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 25s):Yeah. Just, yeah, it's, it's all backwards. And again, it's like, you know, she works for, she worked for an institution and they, they, you know, they should, she grew upGina Pulice (22m 34s):And a time and she's, and she's probably the victim of a lot of sexism. Like it's only, it's all of a piece, but the fact remains that at, at that time, maybe she's a completely different person now, but the fact remains that at that time, she did and said a lot of really racist thingsJen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 51s):And hurtful and other ways, like, just, I mean, I think racism is hurtful, but like other types of hurtful besides racism, just like weird shit, you know, that hurt people. And I, I mean, it's just their truth. And I think it's actually up to, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a co it's a, it's kind of a complicated issue and yet it's not complicated. It's like, you're right. We're just protecting the people that hurt us all the time. That's like when I got, when I got that very nasty email from, from that manager, my first response was in, this is interesting. My first response was to drag him through Twitter.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (23m 31s):Like I was going to put his name and say, I got this. It was so hurtful. And I feel like as a woman, as a Latina, that to get this email about fucking formatting, when I'm trying to break into the business is the condescending. I wanted to drag him. And then I thought, okay, there's a difference between speaking your truth and dragging someone. I don't know the difference exactly. Like, I don't know where the nuances lie that make them different, but dragging someone in Twitter versus, and I don't blame people for dragging people on Twitter, either like that. I'm not saying like dragging people is wrong.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 12s):I think some people need to be dragged. I mean, we've talked about Louis C K's of the world and the Weinsteins do, who deserves to be dragged, who does it. And that's really what I wrote my pilot about, but like, I just didn't feel, I think every person has to decide if they're going to keep secrets, why, or if they're going to drag someone why, or like put it in on social media, straight up, this person did this. You have to be, I have to be prepared to deal with the full consequences if I do that. And I'm just not willing to deal with the full consequences of dragging this guy on Twitter. I'm just not, I'm just not, I don't feel certain.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 51s):Now there are people where if something happened, I would work it out and I might feel certain to drag their ass. But it was interesting. I think everyone has to decide for themselves where the line is of when I'm going to expose someone to the fullest, et cetera, or an institution to the fullest extent and leave the individual out of it. I don't know.Gina Pulice (25m 12s):Right. Well, and you, and you don't want to do anything. That's gonna harm you. I mean, if you, if you were in a certain place in your life and you did like people dragging that guy would never have hurt you, then you could've, you could've made that decision. Yeah. And I'll also just say for anybody listening, who knows me in real life and, and who've, I've hurt and misbehaved, I invite you not to keep that secret. You know, I, I invite you to drag me if it's something that, I mean, for the thing, for my, for the sins of my past, if anybody is, you know, holding on to that and never has told me, or whatever, like I'd rather hear about it, I'd rather know, and try to make amends and to party so that I I'll feel that I have the right to participate in this, keeping those secrets, telling the truth culture that I really try to, you know, I really try to stay within.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (26m 16s):Right, right. So, wow. I forgot. I was going to say something else about That's a lot like that. I just feel like, yeah, this whole, this whole notion of keeping, keeping it, you know, and they say in program, like you're only as sick as your secrets. And I think it's really true. And I think there's a way of, of working through the secret that won't bring further harm to yourself versus versus versus doing something that exposes you further. You know what I mean? And brings, and bring, could bring more abuse or you have to look at, I mean, you know, like it's like, except when to do so would injure yourself for others.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 3s):But, but, but, but, but dragging is about sort of injuring others in a way. I don't know. It's like really interesting. I don't know,Gina Pulice (27m 11s):You know, that saying, or I think, I don't know if you call it, call it a saying, is it kind, is it truthful? Is it necessary? Well, I know you're supposed to aim for all three. Yeah. To my way of thinking, you really just need two out of a three. It can be truthful and necessary, like talking about Harvey Weinstein. It's not kind, but that's okay. It didn't need to be constant. So yeah. So that's, that's, that's that tends to be my barometer is if it can't be kind, at least it has to be truthful in this. Yes.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 43s):Agreed. Agreed. And I think that's, I think for me the necessary part, it's like, okay, well, can I, can I proceed to function as a, you know, trying healthy human being without doing this? Or do I need to do something about this to proceed and live my life and feel like I'm living in integrity and that I'm, I'm doing the right thing by, by me. And sometimes you just, and, and also also, right. Sometimes people, people get, they get hurt. Yeah. But they also didn't think about that when they were abusing others. SoGina Pulice (28m 21s):Yes. Oh yeah. That's the other thing that came out with this board thing, you know, when we were writing the letter, somebody said, okay, so this is, we acknowledge, this is scorched earth. You know, this is a scorched earth thing, which I'm very, that is how I think about things a lot. I, I tend to think about scorched earth, but I, it occurred to me when she said this, how come nobody's ever worried about skirts, scorching the earth with me, right? How come no one's ever worried about burning a bridge with me? You know, like, yeah. Maybe it is scorched earth. But if you, if your takeaway from what I've said to you is that I'm the asshole.Gina Pulice (29m 4s):That's fine. I don't care. That's completely fine. Go. I wish you well on your journey, right? It wasn't for you. I guess for this letter, it was for me to say to you, I mean, if you didn't want to receive it, that's your business. Right?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (29m 22s):Well, Today on the podcast we're talking with CISA Hutchinson. She says a graduate from Vassar and NYU, and she's a teacher, she's a playwright. She writes for television and we found our conversation with her extremely focusing and motivating. So please enjoy our conversation with CISA Hutchinson. Hi, good morning. Good. Where are you? Which coast are you on? Are you on the east coast?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (30m 2s):Okay.Gina Pulice (30m 3s):I guess what, I just had to pause, watching to come talk to you, your movie, your amazing movie. Yes. Oh my God. I'm in the scene with the mother right now and it's so good. It's so good.Chisa Hutchinson (30m 23s):Yeah. That's that? Yeah. You know, it's so funny because when I wrote, I wrote it as a play initially, and I was, when I was writing that part, I was like, this is why people don't like theater, just two people talking like whatever, we're going to be full board. But like, I don't know. Everybody seems to like really be engaged by that part. So,Gina Pulice (30m 51s):Oh no. Yeah. There's nothing boring about this movie. It's called the subject. Everybody go check it out. But before I forget, she's the Hutchinson. Congratulations. You survived hotter school. You survived theater school to fancy theater school.Chisa Hutchinson (31m 7s):Well, yeah, sort of. Okay. So I went to Vassar college for undergrad. Yeah. Which was interesting because I knew it was a good theater program, but I didn't know that it was mostly geared toward writers and directors. Because when I, when I sent him down, there was like literally one dramatic writing class taught by a screenwriter who was like, oh yeah, I guess you can write plays if you want. Really like, learned much about the craft of playwriting while I was there.Chisa Hutchinson (31m 46s):But, but I had a good time and I did a lot of independent studies in the English department and the Africana studies department, just to like, you know, learn about plays theater, you know, scripts plays that weren't, you know, Shakespeare or insulin or checkoff or whatever. Right. So that was undergrad. And then I worked for a few years as a high school English teacher.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (32m 21s):My mom was a high school English teacher and it was, it was intense. Where did you teach?Chisa Hutchinson (32m 28s):I taught at Westtown school, which is a Quaker boarding school in Pennsylvania, like 45 minutes Southwest of Philadelphia. And then I taught at Sage hill school in Southern California, orange county, California, which was like a whole other planet. Okay. Like I felt like a whole ass in orange county, California and teaching there. Yeah.Gina Pulice (32m 60s):I feel like the, the cultural translation from the east coast to orange county might be one of the biggest riffs chasms that there is there. It's quiet.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 13s):I was just going to say, you're the first guests that we've had on. And we've had many that I've been like really sort of, no, not that I'm not excited to talk to everybody else, but your, your, I was telling Gina before this, that your bio is the greatest written bio I've ever read in my life. So I told her I'm the queen of queries. Like I write a bad-ass query letter, like, but you are the baddest ass of bios. Like, I, I love that stuff because for me they're usually so down boring, but you're, and same with queries.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 54s):Like, I, I love to write a good query cause it's kind of a challenge how that bio is. You write it like in a second. I mean, I know it's a little thing, but it's a really important thing to me becauseChisa Hutchinson (34m 7s):So long ago I don't even remember, but I just wanted to, I was like, oh, well, you know, there's going to be plenty of chance to send the short, dry, you know, you know, like formal bio. So I was like, I want my website to be, you know, I went to bio on my website to be, you know, to give a sense of like who I am as a person.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 30s):I feel like I, I was like, I with, and it's an, it's the words are economic. It's not like, it's like this long thing, but it's really short. And it's also so compelling. Anyway, I just, I just that's like my just, just, yeah, I have from zoneGina Pulice (34m 50s):It's on her website, everybody, chisahutchinson.com. You can check it out for yourself. It's veryJen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 54s):Funny. Very good.Gina Pulice (34m 56s):Okay. So by the time you got to T I mean, so what I understand your grad school choice was rather intentional to be about play writing and you picked maybe probably the, one of the best schools did that. Oh. Or maybe you disagree,Chisa Hutchinson (35m 16s):Funny story about the no, no, I loved it. I knew I absolutely loved NYU. I'd probably learn more in one semester there than I did four years. That I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking smack about vets. I'm really not trying to like smack talk Vassar. It's just, it's really, I think they're doing better now. They've hired a playwright that I really loved to teach playwriting there. So that's, I think progressJen Bosworth-Ramirez (35m 47s):We've had the thing where it's like, I I'm coming to the, the sort of realization that a lot of undergrads are kind of like, well, we'll give it a shot. We don't have a awesome, we're going to really do something good luck. And then you'll go to grad school and really learn. I mean, that's how I kind of feel. So I know you're not talkingChisa Hutchinson (36m 8s):Because I really had a wonderful time at the ribs of great, the great place. And I learned through experience, just not so much through the cracks. And then NYU, it was literally the only grad school I applied to. And that was because I had, I had a workshop production. It was my very first workshop production of a play ever at a professional theater company or not really the Lark play development center, which has since Closed.Chisa Hutchinson (36m 49s):And it makes me so sad because that police was like American idol for playwrights. And like, it was the place people knew to like go to the Lark, the Lark and new dramas are like the two places that everybody knows like, okay, you want to find the next half play. Right. And go to this place. Right. So I had my very first production of a, of a full length play at the Lark and they hooked me up. Oh, hardcore. I w at me, it was so many different people who I still work with to this day. Like, I, I love the LARC. Like everyone I met at the Lark, I have kept and I keep working with them. But the game changer was they set me up with Tina Howe as a mentor.Gina Pulice (37m 33s):Yeah, I did. I did one of her plays and theater school.Chisa Hutchinson (37m 38s):That woman is a genius as a wacky genius. Okay. First of all, she's like, I think back then she had to be in her late sixties, early seventies. I don't even know. Nobody knows how old you, how so? No. She is like this waspy, like proper wasp of a woman of a certain age, you know, who apparently responded like exuberantly to my, to my plate. She liked girls, which, which is about like, again, you know, teenage inner city lesbians, you know, like, so it was really weird to have her be like this, but what she responded to was like, I have like surreal elements in that play.Chisa Hutchinson (38m 25s):And she was, she knows what she's all about. That surreal stuff. So they sent me up with her. They were like, you should have dinner with her after, you know, your, your presentation. And I was like, yeah, yeah, cool. So I had dinner with Tina, how well we just like talked and talked and talked to this little gas so late that I was like, oh shit. Like, I'm about to miss my last train back to New Jersey. And she was like, oh, oh no, you will do no such thing. You will not, you are not taking the train back this late. You are coming home with me. And I was like, oh, okay. So you know how so I had a Latina, how, when we woke up and she made me breakfast and she's just talking, she's had you, do you have an MFA?Chisa Hutchinson (39m 11s):You need any of that say, and I was like, no. She was like, well, you have to not have to apply to grad programs. If you're going to apply, you should apply to some people at NYU. My best friend works at NYU and used to reply. And I'm going to write you a letter of recommendation and you're going to go to LA. So literally I put together like a found out that the down deadline for the application was literally the next day. So I application together in a day and like hand delivered it to the department of dramatic writing and I, and cross my fingers and was just like, all right, well, I'll tell me to apply.Chisa Hutchinson (39m 55s):So I applied and I got in, I got in with a full, a full ride and yeah, I had just an amazing, I love my professors there. They were so dope. And what they do is they make you write. So I concentrated in playwriting, which was a really smart move apparently, because playwrights are like the hot shit in Hollywood right now. But yeah, I concentrated and play writing, but they make you write in other mediums also, as you know, it's mandatory. You have to also take TV writing. You have to also take screenwriting. Yeah. And that is, turns out is a very smart way to structure your Germany.Chisa Hutchinson (40m 39s):We're all working everywhere now. You know, like if there's no, there's so much, you know, cross fertilization happening.Gina Pulice (40m 50s):Yeah. That's fantastic. So we only know about the playwriting program at, I think one other school. So at Tisch, did you, did you write stuff? They then got produced there by the students? I mean, like acting playsChisa Hutchinson (41m 6s):Is the only thing that they don't, because they're not what they try to do. They do have like one collaboration class where they bring in, they try to bring in as many professionals as possible because they want like the one sort of student variable, like the one factor, you know, to be student and everything else to be professionals. So they would bring in professional directors and professional actors for it. Wasn't yeah, it was, it was a little bizarre because it felt like you were just siloed from these people that you should be probably, you know, it'd be making connections with.Chisa Hutchinson (41m 49s):So it was a little ad in that respect, but I see, I get the philosophy behind it. Like I get that. They're like, we want to minimize the minimize or maximize the professionalism.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 4s):Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's just sounds like a really like super bad-ass program that I have a friend, a playwright friend named Michael Allen Harris. I don't know. He just graduated from loved it, loved it, loved it. And now, and I have this thing of going to a lot of grad schools now I'm like, I have a master's in counseling psych. I started a screenwriting program then dropped out because they were assholes. And then I'm like, now I'm like NYU grad school. I, you know, but anyway, I, I love this idea that you okay. Cause I'm, I'm in LA right now. And there's a lot of people that are like, and playwrights are hot shit in Hollywood.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 47s):Right. But I love the idea that you didn't go into playwriting to try to be a hot shit in Hollywood, unless you did. And I'm just making thatChisa Hutchinson (42m 57s):Like live theater, it just fits a medium that just affords you so much nuance. And like, there's just so many idiosyncrasies, you know, like you can do things. And I literally teach a class at the university of Delaware. I call it writing in 3d. It's just a playwriting class. But what I do is I make them do small, you know, short writing assignments. And each assignment is focused on some aspect. Some, some topics, some themes, some something, right. Some element that just takes on a whole other texture when it's live.Chisa Hutchinson (43m 40s):So like the first assignment that they get is like nudity. Right. Which c'mon, you know, like it's D you know, we see cities all day long on the screen, like, and it's no, no big. Right. But like in a live theater, that's a whole other thing. Right? Like nudity, you suddenly, you're like forced to really think about the significance of the nudity when it's like right there in your face. Right. So nudity, silence, silence in a theater is different from silence anywhere else, you know, like you can't really do silence and I'm novel, you know, it's like, well, it's a blank page. Right.Chisa Hutchinson (44m 19s):So with audience participation, like you literally can't do that anywhere else. You know? So yeah. Each assignment, I really try to get my students thinking the possibilities that, you know, they can take advantage of those in, in theater that they can't really get anywhere else.Gina Pulice (44m 41s):You're just making me think of something that makes me so sad, which is that a lot of us do approach just anything performance-related through theater, because it is so singularly special. And then as you have this line in your bio, you write these plays that have more than five characters and deal with themes of race. So they're probably never going to get produced. And actually the way, the way I met you was at the national new play network in Sacramento. I mean, I met you like passing hello, where they did a staged reading of your play America, which looks amazing. Has that ever been produced?Chisa Hutchinson (45m 19s):That is literally, it has been postponed twice pandemic postpartum, but it's where I'm going to start rehearsing for that in January, at alley theater in Houston.Gina Pulice (45m 30s):Fantastic. I'm really happy to hear that. So, you know, so theater gives us all of these things that we can't find elsewhere, and then there's zero money spent on it so that people like you only end up getting to do, you know, bring their brilliance, not only, but you get paid by bringing your brilliance to film and television, it's just kind of sad. You know, that there's, it's not a viable option to really make your living as a playwright.Chisa Hutchinson (46m 0s):It is. It is. I I'm not, if I knew how to fix it. Right. I, I would, but you know, I think we just need to just do the best we can. And every day I wake up feeling great. I mean, even on a, even on a shitty day, and I've had some pretty shitty days, especially like this past week or so, where, I mean just where you just feel gutted and, you know, come out and, or whatever. And you're like, just want to crawl into a cave. But then I'm like, literally like sitting in a house that you bought with, wow, you're doing, you're doing will pay.Chisa Hutchinson (46m 49s):And the fact that I get to do what I like in whatever capacity really, right. Like, okay, theater doesn't pay me enough to live on, but please screen, you know, screen writing or I get to teach. Like I get to talk to sit around every week, just telling young people, like I hear is why words are cool. And then they get all excited. And then they like present their work in class and then they get all, like, they get attached to each other's characters and things know like when they're reading over beating and workshop and it just, it just like tickles my soul.Chisa Hutchinson (47m 35s):So like, why, you know, why, why would I be sad about really anything?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (47m 43s):Can I ask you a question about the gutted nearness of, so did you say I, you sort of brushed over it, but like the governess of, did you say reviews like of your films? Okay. Okay. So here's my question. Here's my question. Because you're someone that's working in an industry that I am like, oh my God. You know, because I'm me, I'm like, they've got it made, you know, whatever it's garbage. I know. But when a review, cause we talk a lot about, on this podcast about resilience or, and I'm obsessed with the idea of resilience or bouncing back, whatever you want to call it. What happens inside you that you're able to say, bitch, keep going. Like, what is that moment for you?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (48m 24s):Because I'm, I had a week where a asshole said some asshole you things as they do. And then I had to like regroup and keep on with my, my situation. So what did for you, how do you do that as someone, you know, how do you do it?Chisa Hutchinson (48m 40s):Okay. So this is a thing that comes with time. This writing shit, like it's a war of attrition is, is really, really only the people who stick around are the ones who get to succeed on any level really. Right. So if you stick around long enough, right. If you just don't let, when someone kicks you in the face, right. You just kind of have to be like, get up and keep walking. What, what, what did it for me? I think it was like the third or fourth, like mixed review that I got in the times for a play prediction.Chisa Hutchinson (49m 28s):And, and then I thought, bitch, this is, this is your fourth review. And the TA, one of them was like really good, you know, like of all the reviews that I've gotten and I'm picking on the times, because of course that's the one that everybody sees. Right. But like whenever, you know, the reviews come out and some of them are like really fuses and wonderful and that's like fuel and it's, it's awesome. They're usually on the, like really rinky-dink like platforms with like 300 followers. Right. But, but you're like, oh, somebody gets it.Chisa Hutchinson (50m 8s):You know, like somebody, somebody out there, guess what I'm trying to do too bad. Those somebodies they're not the ones with the giant platforms, but it's okay. And so you read those and you absorb them, but then like if you just sort of take a step back and like, I, you know, like I didn't realize, you know, these reviews aren't actually keeping me from getting work. I mean, it would certainly help to have a great review right. In some, you know, in the, whatever the Washington post, whatever, right. Like whatever, big, whatever big platform, it would certainly help to have a great review, but I'm still working.Chisa Hutchinson (50m 49s):Like I still get work, even if, you know, I haven't been anointed by the New York times. Right. Like, so it really is just a matter of like hanging in there. Like, I, I hate to sayJen Bosworth-Ramirez (51m 2s):I love that because, because that is something that I, and we have control over is hanging in there versus having control over whether, whoever at whatever paper or whatever, whatever loves me. I have no control over that, but I can control whether I hang in there or whether it's worth it to hang in there or not. So that's actually something you can actually do. So I like that. It's like, I can do thatChisa Hutchinson (51m 26s):And I'll work on the next thing. Just be working on the next, keep writing happens that when I find that I like get over bad routes, the fastest when I'm already in the middle of the next project. Sure. So like right now I'm working at, so you mentioned the subject just got released this past week, last, last week. Oh my God. How's that week. We just had our premiere party a week ago already, but yeah. And the reviews have been mixed, you know, some people like really get it. And some people I'm like, you are completely missing the point. Like you're completely missing the point and it's very frustrating, but I don't even really have time to be too concerned about it because I'm like, I'm literally in a writer's room for a Hulu show right now.Chisa Hutchinson (52m 16s):So I'm really, I'm, I'm my revision actually is due today after like, I'm going to have to like, you know, I was right in that. I have like 10 more pages that I need to trim, but yeah, I, I can't, I don't, I don't have time to while I can just, you just gotta be like all up in the next thing, all that.Gina Pulice (52m 35s):And it does make sense that review, I mean, reviews are, people have feel all kinds of artists have feelings about reviews, but it really makes sense that a writer would have a hard time, you know, just for example, ignoring reviews because your life is about words and that's what that's, what's happening in a review is the people are assembling words to, to decide, you know, pass judgment on whether or not you have something interesting to say,Chisa Hutchinson (53m 3s):When you write about something personal or when you write about something about which you're passionate, that it feels, so it feels like they just took a knife to your heart, you know? Like it feels so like, yeah, let me just swallow my pride with a chaser of napalm, you know, just like BR like, it just burns you on the inside and you, you just, it feels like you're never going to get over it, but you will. You do, you do the next thing and yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (53m 35s):Really. I mean, ultimately it's like, you know, fuck you and goodbye and good luck and onward, but I love the idea of moving. I always be, cause people used to tell me like, just keep writing and I'd be like, go fuck yourself because I don't want to keep writing. I want someone to like my last project not, but it's true. Like if I can shut up and, and, and stop feeling, sorry for myself, I, I look, it feels good to feel sorry for myself for a little bit. But I feel like if I can actually do something rather than ruminate and create more work, then the steam comes out of it. Just because simply there's not enough space in my brain to keep thinking about what Joe Schmo said in his last email.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 21s):So it is that it's just like focus on the writing, you know, sounds so easy to do, but it's actually, for me, a self preservation thing to keep writing, instead of ruminating on all the things that went wrong with the last, the last project or whatever, you know?Chisa Hutchinson (54m 38s):Yeah. And I'm very lucky also to be doing this in a time where there's Instagram and TikTok because I have like, literally I have like a little collection of videos specifically that I just, that no matter what the hell is going on, like they always make me,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 59s):I love that made me laugh minus the stone guy shoveling. Have you seen, okay, so this is an old one, but it, if anyone out there has, there's a guy who's trying to shovel snow and he cannot get it together. And he keeps falling and it's sort of a metaphor for my life and he just keeps it at the end. He just goes, fuck it. And show that shovel. And there's someone filming his neighbors filming, cracking up, but quietly not trying to make fun, but like in a way that like, man, we have all been there. The dude cannot shovel to save his life. And I was like that. I relate to that shit because it's just like, you're just shoveling and falling in your own shit and falling and someone's bike going way to go.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (55m 44s):I feel you. So with the Tik-toks, I, I, that's a really good thing to do. You keep them for when you feel bad, you watch them or just whenever.Chisa Hutchinson (55m 52s):And then when I'm just like to set for words, you know, I just need to watch a video of big fluffy dogs ripping down the stairs. No, with the voiceover that's like curse. It just, oh my God. It gets everyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 7s):Time,Chisa Hutchinson (56m 9s):Every timeJen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 11s):I love it, I want to see it. I'm gonna look it up. It's a dog cursing like a voiceover.Chisa Hutchinson (56m 16s):I really wish. Yeah. And he's like this, there are three, three big fluffy fucking dog. You just want to like squeeze them. They're so fucking big and fluffy, you know? And they're like, there are these concrete cores outdoors right there, like three or four stairs. And they're running along the top, the top stair, I'm about to make their way down. But because the coloring and the, you know, how shallow, because of the way the stairs are built on the color, you don't, if you have no depth perception, right. Which those dogs clear would be not.Chisa Hutchinson (56m 57s):It's hard to know that it's not just like grown, we'll go running along the stairs. And one of them that one in the front is like, oh, I can't wait to the, and then I can't wait to get to the, and then he goes Like tumbles down the,Gina Pulice (57m 18s):Okay, we're going to have to try to link to that in our show notes. So people can check it out.Chisa Hutchinson (57m 23s):I will, we send that to you because it cracks me up.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (57m 29s):I'm obsessed. And you're making me see why fails are so important. Like, I love fail videos. I watch news bloopers all day long because what it is is people trying their best to be sincere and be like, I take themselves so serious. I'm going to do my job. And then all of a sudden, the chair falls out and they're like still trying to do their goddamn job. And they're like, and anyway, I'm the news. And you're like, I love it because I feel like that 90% of my fucking life, I feel like I'm like, I could still do this while my legs are being taken out from under me. So anyway, Tik Toks and fails. Yes. They're worth something. They're really good.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (58m 10s):I'm sorry.Gina Pulice (58m 12s):No, no, no. That's okay. No, but that's how it was. No, but it's, I mean, it's germane it's on the topic of survival is we all have ways of surviving the everyday banalities and everyday horrors of life. So you, right before we talked, started talking to you for the podcast, we always do another section of just us talking before. And we were talking about secrets and we were talking about, you know, especially as it pertains to your profession and personal writing, the dangerous territory that you start navigating when it gets into the territory of like family secrets. And I don't mean, you know, so-and-so whatever cheated on his wife.Gina Pulice (58m 57s):I just mean maybe more like a thematic secret where we're protecting this abusive behavior. We're protecting this abusive personality. And I recently in my life made a decision to stop doing that in, in, in multiple arenas, but specifically in one and my awakening about it is all about, I'm not holding anybody else's secrets anymore. It's not me. If you don't want me, if you don't like that about me, then you probably need to reevaluate your relationship with me. I'm done holding on to other people's secrets and actually your movie touches on that a lot.Gina Pulice (59m 42s):And I'm just curious about your own relationship professionally speaking to secrets and how you navigate that test, the difference between say or the potential chasm between saying something that's really true for you and saying something that could somehow hurt you in the future.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 7s):Wow. That's that sounds serious. That's a serious question. I'm kind of with you as far as like, like my husband, for example, he knows he has known from year one when we first started dating that. Like, if it's happening to you while I know you, like, if it's happening between us, like that should it's part like, like that's like, that's, that's fatter. Like I'm gonna, I will use that. Like as an I don't care if it really sort of is a little unschooled, do you?Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 47s):Oh, okay. So for example, I wrote, I wrote a book called 101 reasons to not breed. Yes. Lemon. One of the reasons is like kids, if you miss me, like, they're just messy. It's shit. Right. So what I did was I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I'm very clear on this. Right. But I do have a husband who just doesn't even see mess anymore. Doesn't realize when he's like leaving stuff for, so I literally just spent a good few months just taking pictures and text messages that he left around her.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 1m 33s):I mean, ridiculous fucking message. Like socks on the kitchen, counter, dirty socks on the kitchen. I'm like, fuck. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will take a picture of the toilet that you did not cross blew it up. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will put, I will literally put your shit on. I will put your shit out there for the world. See if you don't start cleaning up after yourself. Right. Like, so that's okay. Like that's a kind of a funny, you know, version of, of, of that. Right. But there are some other things, there are other things, I mean, in the same book, I actually talk about my mother and my biological mother who gave me away when I was three.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 19s):But like before that, I mean, some of my earliest memories are of her like beating the shit out of me, you know, her and my stepdad beating the crap out of me at three, you know? So yeah. I don't, I don't, I have never had qualms about putting I'm like, you didn't have qualms about putting your fist to my, my little face. Right. So I'm not going to have qualms about like, putting that out there and trying to turn it into a positive, in case there's someone else out there who is feeling some type of way about the fact that their mother abandoned them or whatever, you know, like, I just want to let you know, like, I'm connecting with you, right. You are not alone.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 59s):Right. And you know, you find your family where you can and that's sort of the message of the book is that you don't actually have to like grow grass root, right. Or, or even honor the fact that someone grew you right. In order to, to have family into it and to feel that that familial love. So that's what the book is, is supposed to doGina Pulice (1h 3m 28s):Truett fruit. Oh crap. Okay.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 32s):I love it. So yeah, I, I will, I don't, there's really no such thing as a secret withGina Pulice (1h 3m 40s):You don't have a, a quandary about it. You just go straight .Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 47s):I do. I will let people know though, because I don't want to, you don't want to be bad art friend. Right? LikeGina Pulice (1h 3m 56s):Our friends on this podcast,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 58s):I will let you know. I'm like, Hey look, because I left my husband and I'm like, look, I'm putting, do you see these pictures? You know, you see all these shit, you left around the house. Yeah. I took pictures of all of it and it's going in the book. Right. Like he knows, you know, his step, I just, or I'll ask if there's something like, I'm like, ah, hi, how do you feel about me too? Because here's why I'm thinking it will serve the story really well. Or here's why I think it'll help other people connect with it. Or, you know what I mean? Like, I I'm, I'm very clear on like, why I need a particular thing why I need to expose dirty laundry. Right, right, right.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 39s):So, and as long as I can voice that, like most folks are okay with it. Well, what really cracks me up is when the people don't even recognize themselves in yourGina Pulice (1h 4m 49s):Oh, right. They'll or they'll, they'll tell, they'll tell you the character that they know you meant to be them. And it's not, it's like an admirable character and that's not who you areChisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 60s):Now that ain't too.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 2s):I have a question as it relates to like, and I told you to, before this, I was going to ask you this. So I sent him a letter to someone, a query, and I said like, I'm a Latina, I'm a middle aged woman. I'm getting into television bubble. Anyway, I got a horrific, crazy response. And my initial response was to drag the motherfucker on Twitter, but I didn't do it. What, what do you think about, I don't even know if drags the right word out, whatever it is. It was a terrible situation that I felt. And my first response was, I'm going to get this motherfucker. I did not do it. I did not do it. But what do you feel about people that are go, go on social media or groups or whatever.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 44s):I just, what are your thoughts on saying on, on, on doing that? Cause people are doing it a lot, you know? And, and I don't, I don't necessarily Gina and I talked about like, I'm not sure it's a terrible thing. I just, it wasn't right for me to do in that moment also, becauseChisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 1s):It's not a terrible thing, but it's not a great, I mean, it's not very everyone. Like, I, I don't really do it so much because I feel like it's giving them too much power or it's, it's that thing of like, okay, yeah. Dwell, dwell on it for five minutes and then move on like that, because that's, that's really how you can get back at those motherfuckers, right. Is to just like go on with your life and be happy and, you know, find joy elsewhere. Right? Like that's and, you know, to, to dignify their, their fuckery was, you know, you are strongly worded Facebook posts.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 47s):Right. Is what is it doing? You know? I mean, would you feel better? It might make you feel better just to kind of like, get it out there. It also might help you connect with, you know, other people who have experienced a similar thing. Right. And, you know, maybe they were feeling isolated or alone and they're in their failure or in their, whatever it is. Right. So, I mean, I'm not gonna say it doesn't have its uses. Right. But as far as like, is it getting back at that personJen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 7m 18s):And also, right.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 7m 22s):I really I'm just, so this is a lesson that I'm really just now getting around to like learning in a, in a sort of visceral way. Is that like nobody cares? No, I literally just today was, well that's right. Post, because I saw on IMD be the subject. There are a couple of, and it's really just a couple, like, there are a couple of really awful, I mean, Pete, just users who were just like, you know, clearly expecting it to be a comedy because Jason business owner or something, Make movies fun again, you know? And I was just like, oh dude.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 3s):And they're the ones who, who will take the time to like post over review or post it's their, I can't even call them props because they would have to be thinking I would have to have brain. Right. But I did, like, I went on Facebook, like the closest I'll come is like, I went on Facebook and was like, Hey, y'all alert if you enjoy the movie, like, please rate it. Please post a review because these guys like their opinions, shouldn't be the stand in for everybody. Else's right. And that's, that's really about as close as I'll come. But even that I'm like, I was torn about doing that because I'm like, doesn't even, does it even matter?Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 47s):Like,Gina Pulice (1h 8m 48s):And it gets back to this whole thing about reviews because I saw your post and it's specifically men over 45 or something like that. And I thought, yeah, but who else is writing these things, but men over 45, like I'm guilty of loving something and then not writing it down anywhere that I love it because it's, so it's such an, it has become such an important part of art making, like how are people receiving it? And is it getting enough views? And is it getting enough, you know, clicks. And to me it's always just like the person who ha, who wants to take their time when it's not positive to tell you that you put your heart and soul into something and they didn't care for it.Gina Pulice (1h 9m 31s):And I don't understand the impulse, actually.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 9m 34s):This is the biggest demographic of voters, by the way. I think too, like I I'm just saying like, these are people that like really when they feel something, they feel really entitled to just like trash it. Or I think the, the, maybe the rest of us are so busy surviving. We don't write nice reviews. I don't know. But I started to write good reviews because I realized that for people, for people in that are trying to make projects, whether it's in the arts or not that it actually matters that the rest of us speak up because those voices, like you're saying don't need to be the loudest. Cause they're not, they're not the only voices out there. There's this is people that take the time to click away. Same with the guy who ran the time to use his time to write me a nasty,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 10m 17s):You know, like they're, they, they have a sense of self-importance that I think the rest of us not. And I'm just like, ah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 10m 27s):Right, right. So I think the way to counter it is for the rest of us to start for me anyway. Cause I'm, I'm guilty too, of like not when something is great, not saying like, Hey, I love this product. Even if it's a candle, like we have a friend that makes candles, you know, and Gina, you posted about it. That matters. That's that? It's like, I got to take time out of my day, even though I'm busy hustling and all this stuff to like support the things that I do, like so that the loud, loud ass, old white dudes, don't just get to have the whole market cornered on reviews, like come on or whatever. So I think,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 7s):You know, to bark the thing that I like out of existence, right? Like, because that is a thing that can happen too, when there's a perception that like, oh, well nobody wants this. Right. But the only people who have been, you know, it'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 11m 22s):And it's like, oh, this movie, this movie, or this project or whatever didn't do well, no, no, it actually did fine. It was just that the people that were screaming the loudest and felt entitled to scream, you know, people, we think that we give them importance. So it's like, we have to take back the, the importance of like, you know, the other voices it's just goes about like other voices in the room that aren't, aren't being heard.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 45s):People kno

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Navillera (tvN, 2021), and dives into its queer theme, existential exploration on pursuing the arts in one's 70s, and being there for one's artistic self. Grace's guest is the very funny LA-based comedian and actor Tim Murray (@tmurray06 on Instagram) who is on HBO's The Other Two and the film Swan Song (2021). Grace and Tim discuss tennis, Oprah, 1990s movies and TV shows, childhood trauma, and Amanda Bynes. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Gina ordered her theatre school transcriptsLet Me Run This By You: knowing when to let go, moments of clarityInterview: We talk to Ammar Daraiseh about being an MFA, homesickness, Joe Slowik and Bella Itkin, Joe Mantegna, type casting, being a middle eastern actor, Sweet Smell of Success, film noir. www.ammardaraiseh.com - there is where you can watch Ammar's acting reel and my short films he produced www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina . We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I1 (45s):Half expected you to have red hair this morning.2 (49s):Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.1 (59s):It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,2 (1m 13s):The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.2 (2m 1s):But guess what my lowest grade was in1 (2m 8s):Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,2 (2m 13s):My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think1 (2m 40s):That's a great observation by him.2 (2m 44s):See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.1 (3m 7s):It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript2 (3m 21s):And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,1 (3m 33s):Anybody else want to have a transcript? You2 (3m 36s):Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your1 (3m 42s):I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.1 (4m 24s):So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.2 (4m 35s):I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.1 (4m 39s):Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.2 (4m 46s):Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.2 (5m 27s):And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.1 (6m 7s):Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.2 (6m 11s):Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to1 (6m 43s):Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?2 (6m 48s):No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,1 (6m 58s):If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.1 (7m 38s):But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So2 (8m 13s):You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.1 (8m 33s):And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those2 (8m 55s):Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.2 (9m 40s):We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.2 (10m 25s):I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.2 (11m 10s):I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.2 (11m 51s):But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.2 (12m 36s):But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.2 (13m 17s):Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.2 (13m 58s):And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.2 (14m 38s):Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great. 1 (15m 0s):Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?1 (15m 43s):Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.1 (16m 25s):I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.1 (17m 9s):I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,2 (17m 27s):100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.1 (17m 56s):I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.1 (18m 38s):Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.1 (19m 19s):And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?2 (19m 54s):We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but1 (20m 21s):Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.2 (20m 27s):Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.2 (21m 32s):Oh, oh,1 (21m 33s):It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then2 (21m 46s):You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.1 (22m 25s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.1 (23m 11s):And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.1 (23m 53s):And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.2 (24m 10s):Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.2 (24m 51s):Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.1 (25m 1s):Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.1 (25m 41s):Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,2 (25m 55s):W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,1 (26m 26s):Why did I do that? Yeah.2 (26m 28s):Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.1 (26m 42s):Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.2 (27m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the1 (27m 6s):Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.2 (27m 14s):Thank you. So how are you doing1 (27m 16s):Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what2 (27m 43s):If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,1 (27m 50s):Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.1 (28m 36s):Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?1 (29m 17s):I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.1 (29m 59s):I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.2 (30m 5s):Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,1 (30m 17s):Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.1 (31m 7s):And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,2 (31m 32s):Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.2 (32m 13s):Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.1 (32m 17s):Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.2 (33m 7s):Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.2 (33m 50s):And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.2 (34m 35s):I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality1 (34m 38s):And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?1 (35m 20s):Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?2 (35m 54s):It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self1 (36m 21s):And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.2 (36m 35s):No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,1 (36m 41s):How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,2 (36m 48s):So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like1 (36m 55s):Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.2 (37m 1s):That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.1 (37m 8s):It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.2 (37m 19s):Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,1 (37m 54s):Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there2 (38m 3s):To be curious. Fun to be1 (38m 4s):Curious about. Yeah.2 (38m 17s):Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater3 (38m 54s):School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You2 (38m 57s):Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.3 (39m 9s):Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was2 (39m 30s):The feeling that you had.3 (39m 32s):It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,2 (40m 4s):I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something3 (40m 15s):People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.1 (40m 52s):Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,3 (41m 31s):I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.3 (42m 16s):Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,2 (42m 20s):Do you have artists in your family?3 (42m 23s):No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.2 (42m 39s):It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the3 (43m 21s):That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.1 (43m 45s):Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,3 (44m 13s):Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.3 (44m 56s):I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,2 (45m 20s):You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.3 (45m 24s):I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.3 (46m 4s):And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?3 (46m 46s):And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.2 (47m 20s):Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,3 (47m 52s):But2 (47m 52s):You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,3 (48m 0s):I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.3 (48m 47s):They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way1 (49m 10s):And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?3 (49m 29s):I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.3 (50m 9s):It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.3 (50m 55s):I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but4 (51m 8s):We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on3 (51m 11s):Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.3 (51m 52s):And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.1 (52m 2s):Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?3 (52m 10s):Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,4 (52m 43s):Isabel. I haven't3 (52m 44s):Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he1 (52m 50s):Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So3 (52m 52s):He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.3 (53m 39s):And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.3 (54m 19s):Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.2 (54m 23s):Oh, say what3 (54m 27s):You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And2 (54m 38s):Coming back to me, wait a minute,3 (54m 40s):You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.2 (55m 7s):I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.3 (55m 28s):What2 (55m 29s):What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.2 (56m 9s):So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from3 (56m 29s):Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.1 (56m 59s):No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.3 (57m 23s):Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.3 (58m 3s):Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.2 (58m 29s):That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.3 (58m 58s):Oh, wow. Yeah.2 (59m 1s):That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.1 (59m 38s):We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.1 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah.3 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.2 (1h 0m 31s):Right. Very3 (1h 0m 32s):Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.2 (1h 0m 35s):Right?3 (1h 0m 36s):The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but1 (1h 1m 10s):It's like 48 or some craziness3 (1h 1m 13s):For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella and Joe slower. And I think because they come from, you know, such interesting backgrounds, you know, Joe slug being Polish, you know, Bella, it can be in a Russian Jewish woman. Oh, I got a lot of stories while her, oh my God.1 (1h 1m 43s):She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?3 (1h 1m 47s):Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.3 (1h 2m 28s):I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.3 (1h 3m 9s):You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.2 (1h 3m 38s):Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,3 (1h 4m 13s):She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.2 (1h 4m 34s):We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?3 (1h 4m 45s):No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.3 (1h 5m 29s):I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,1 (1h 5m 41s):Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?3 (1h 5m 49s):Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.3 (1h 6m 31s):And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.2 (1h 6m 38s):But it took the focus3 (1h 6m 40s):Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.2 (1h 7m 24s):Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,3 (1h 7m 30s):She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.1 (1h 7m 55s):Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or3 (1h 8m 3s):Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.1 (1h 8m 23s):Wait a minute. So wait a minute.3 (1h 8m 25s):There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but2 (1h 8m 32s):There was quite a few.1 (1h 8m 35s):Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.3 (1h 8m 50s):I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.3 (1h 9m 31s):Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.2 (1h 9m 42s):Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,1 (1h 10m 2s):We don't have any money.2 (1h 10m 3s):We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.3 (1h 10m 27s):I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.3 (1h 11m 8s):And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.3 (1h 11m 48s):And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,2 (1h 12m 11s):Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.3 (1h 12m 21s):I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Hometown Cha-Cha-Cha (tvN, 2021). She addresses Kim Seon-ho's scandal, and how to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of #MeToo to find healing. Grace's guest is Leah Steuer, PhD Candidate at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who specializes in television audience studies and affect theory. Leah is also Grace's old friend from back in the UCLA master's degree days in Los Angeles. They start out by discussing The Many Saints of Newark (2021) (spoilers ahead) and The Sopranos (spoilers ahead), then dive into academia and graduate school stresses, adjuncting, the impossibility of capitalist expectations, meaningful living, affect theory, charting new research terrains methodologically in audience studies, Foucault's acid trip in Death Valley through the help of Dr. Simeon Wade, Bob Balaban, Ray Liotta, self-doubt, imposter syndrome and mental health. Comedian Ai Yoshihara (@aiyoshihara3 on Instagram) closes out with some hilarious answers to Grace's flashcard questions based on Hometown Cha-Cha-Cha. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

In which we think about Drama Schools and University Drama Departments and work our way through ‘Falling Off A Wall: Degrees of Change in British Actor Training' Ben Frankombe's essential paper on the History of Actor Training between the 1970s and the early 2000s. Support the show (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=EKHEKXBAZBQG6¤cy_code=GBP)

Intro: Is Mercury in retrograde?, thought ideation, Let Me Run This By You: holding the hope for someone else when you're not feeling it yourselfInterview: Centenary university, Cedar Point, dyslexia, Ed Graczyk, stage combat, John Jenkins, B.K.S. Iyengar yoga, Burn This, movement to music, therapy, improvisation, Sean Gunn, Lee Kirk, Johnna Adams, No End of Blame, Paul Holmquist, Ben Nye, Tisch, Hot l Baltimore, Sharon Gopfert, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, Les Liaisons Dangereuses at Shattered Globe theatre, demons, Susan Bennett, Agamemnon at European Repertory Theatre, Leonard Roberts, vanity, the Wolf Pack Production Company, Zach Helm, Bridget Quebodeaux, Jimmy McDermott, Rob Hess, Hunting Cockroaches, Paul Tei, cancer.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the campy narrative of the show Till the End of the World (MBC, 1998), and how Ryu Si-won was a 1990s K-drama hottie who met his downfall after getting marred in a domestic abuse scandal. Grace's guest is the very profound and funny New York-based comedian Misho Shakur (@misho.shakur on Instagram). They talk about trust, fear, tools, love, Jesus, cults, elephants, psychedelics, Syria, trauma, Dumbo, and so much more. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: rain in LA, Nine Perfect Strangers, we're worried about Nicole Kidman and Madonna, The Way Down documentary, The Plot Thickens podcast, GleeLet Me Run This By You: antisemitism Jen and Gina talk about survival, itself.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Squid Game (Netflix, 2021) for the second time. (For her first take on Squid Game, check out episode 39 of K-Drama School podcast.) Grace finds the arguments on Twitter over Squid Game's subtitle translations ridiculous given the high subjectivity of language interpretation. She asks why critics are not questioning Netflix's impossible expectations and demands out of laborers who work under high pressures and strict time deadlines which are not conducive to ideal translation work. Furthermore, all media goes through a great deal of mediation via many different hands and minds; the perfect encapsulation of an auteur's vision is impossible. Grace emphasizes the importance of working less and stressing less. Happiness does not equal money. Happiness is attainable without a cent but the mythology of capitalism dictates otherwise and most people buy into its beliefs. Grace analyzes the character Ali's position in Squid Game and the plight of migrant workers in South Korea who come from parts of South Asia, China, North Korea and Eastern Europe. Grace dives into neocolonialism and Korea's subempire status over developing nations under the shadow of America's global empire. Grace's guest is Critical Studies Professor at UCLA's Theater Department—Dr. Suk-Young Kim who authored K-Pop Live: Fans, Idols, and Multimedia Performance, Illusive Utopia: Theater, Film and Everyday Performance in North Korea and DMZ Crossing: Performing Emotional Citizenship Along the Korean Border. Dr. Kim and Grace discuss Squid Game and the failures of capitalism, the horrific reality of our neoliberal existence in developed societies, Netflix's neocolonial demands and expectations out of South Korea (cheap labor, low production costs) and how that is costing lives on underfunded Korean productions while draining Korean creators of their physical, mental and emotional well-being, South Korean netizen's impossibly high expectations, the illusions of capitalist systems, the under-appreciated black humor of Squid Game, and the increasingly harrowing circumstances of recent PhDs in the current arts and humanities job market. Berlin-based comedian Tobias Hauser closes the episode out with hilarious answers to Grace's flashcard questions based on Squid Game's scenarios. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro:Let Me Run This By You:Interview: We talk to Caroline Uy about stage management for opera, the relationship between engineering and creativity, and the University of Michigan

We talk to Noelle RathCOMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand. 2 00:00:15That's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all 1 00:00:21Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? 2 00:00:28Hi, I haven't talked to you 10 years. Been 1000 years. How 1 00:00:35They celebration? I mean, I know there wasn't a big celebration, but 2 00:00:39It, it was great. It was a bit of a weekend though. Friday was great. I, yeah, I had a great day. We went out to dinner. We had a great Italian dinner and it was lovely and I got some nice presence and it was, it was great. And I, and I wrote a blog post about, 1 00:01:02I just read it cause my friend left so good. I'm going to pimp it out today. 2 00:01:06Oh, that's right. Your friend. Who's your friend that's there or was that 1 00:01:10God gone? So that's something I want to run by you is like how to in our middle age to navigate friendships that I don't think she listens to this. So I don't, but that for me are very challenging and that's just the truth. So anyway, continue. Well, we'll talk about that. 2 00:01:29Well, we'll get to that. Yeah. We'll get to that. So on Saturday I got the autopsy from my sister and she is no surprise. She died from alcohol intoxication. We already knew that or alcohol poisoning, but for some reason, my mom and I were both kind of fixated on like what her blood alcohol content was going to be. And I never really looked that much into it. You know, like I know 0.08 is the legal limit for driving, which I think ends up. Meaning like, even if you might even be in trouble, if you have one drink or two drinks 1 00:02:08For most people's weight, but I don't. Right, 2 00:02:11Right. Hers was 0.46. Yes. So I looked up on Wikipedia. Like there's actually a very handy little chart there that breaks down for you all the different levels and like what the impairments are and starting at 0.01. I mean, there's, there's observable differences, at least in terms of like, if you're hooked up to machines, I guess, and they're observing you, they may not be that noticeable to other people. But anyway, there's impairments that begin from drink one. 2 00:02:51And by the time you get to 0.3 is complete blackout. And by the time you get to 0.4 it's onset of coma and respiratory failure, he was at 0.4, six. Yeah. And 0.5 is just death. Like no, no bones about it. If your alcohol is the blood in your alcoholic, if the alcohol in your blood gets to 0.5, you're definitely dead. So it was like surprisingly so upsetting. I don't mean it's surprising that I don't know what, what, I'm not totally sure what it was about that number that had me so rocked. 2 00:03:34But I was talking to my mom and I was saying like, when I used to drink, when I was younger, I mean, I still drank. But like when I used to really drink for, for partying or whatever you wanna call it, if I got up to five drinks, I was definitely throwing up and I never measured my blood alcohol level. But I'm guessing it would have been, I mean, point, I don't know. I'm guessing it would have been up there. I don't know how you get, how you physically get don't you just start to throw up. And my mom said practice. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. It's tolerance and my blood turn cold when she said that just the chill went up my spine, like, okay. 2 00:04:22So she had to have been drinking a lot for a long time. She did not have she had the beginnings of cirrhosis, but it wasn't even like, yeah, because it took my dad 11 years to die from, from alcoholism and he had hepatitis. So it was like, it wasn't making a sense to me. It must be. I, I don't, I really don't know how to understand it. Aaron says th I mean, this is suicide. This is not, not that she was intending. It necessarily all those, she might've been, but he was saying like, you have to he's does this hand gesture, you have to be glug, glug, glug, ING, basically to, to get to that blood alcohol level is not an easy thing to do. 2 00:05:12And so here's what I want to say about it. She was the fifth person of my family to die from alcohol toxicity. And, you know, there was a member of my family that knew she was struggling with it knew she had gone to rehab and she went to rehab. I didn't know any of this. Oh yeah. She went to rehab. Yeah. And th and actually, until I told this family member that we got the, you know, cause of death, that person was telling me that person was not telling me that she was in rehab. That person was telling me that she went away for work. 2 00:05:55Like she's dead. What's, what's the secret that you're hiding. And this person also hid in her bedroom was a book, the big book of alcoholics anonymous. And this person put, hid that. And, and, and the way they were saying it was like, and of course, should I put that away because that's nobody's business. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? First of all, I hope to God that her kids know that this is what she died from. 1 00:06:29Not 2 00:06:30One should know, 1 00:06:32Oh one should know for so many reasons, if nothing else that, oh, this runs in our family and I should be really careful. 2 00:06:41Exactly. 1 00:06:42They don't. They might not know. I bet they don't know. 2 00:06:45So this is the way that denial kills us, because we don't want to talk about what's really going on. And so, so, so that when somebody is suffering to the point that they want to drink that much, they assume that they're the only person who's suffering like that. They assume that there's no help. They assume that there's no hope for them. Which really, I mean, talking about this stuff only, ever in genders, hope in people, you know what I mean? Because you can't tame it until you name it. It's not the expression. Yeah. So like, how the fuck is anybody supposed to tame, you know, these sicknesses, these, unless they know what they are. 1 00:07:25It's really, it's really unlike devastating to find out that like, you know, someone that you love. And even if you're, you know, whatever you're strange from them, it doesn't matter. It was suffering. That's the part I think right. Was suffering and felt alone. I mean, I think that's the devastating part. And that's what my father's suicide, the same thing. Like my dad, whether he did it on purpose or not the guy overdosed and my mother country and other family members continue to say that he died to something else. The fuck is wrong. It is insane. 1 00:08:06That is the insanity of this, of the disease of addiction and mental illness that we at all costs 2 00:08:16At all costs. I almost want, I almost want to say, and maybe I'll just say it here on this forum. I want to say that if you're somebody who is covering up for somebody else who is in, in, in harm's way with substance, you are a killer. Yep. 1 00:08:38Yep. You are. You were helping too. You were like an accomplice to murder. Like really. 2 00:08:43Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that is probably going to sound harsh to a lot of people, but it's just the truth. It's just the truth. Because, because, and the reason I it's the truth is because if you did the opposite of that, if you said, wow, you're really struggling. I want to help you. What can I do to help you? Or if you don't get help, I'm afraid I can't continue in this relationship. If you're not doing that, then you are. And also the last person you're doing a favor for is that person. Right? You know what I mean? Like I, I have this thought that people at my family think that if we say that this is what she died from that we're tarnishing her memory. 2 00:09:24I mean, it's, 1 00:09:27It has tarnished already because of the disease and the secrecy. So like, if anything, you'd be shining a light and, and, and, and helping her memory to be one of the person had a disease that wasn't there. It was a no fault illness. 2 00:09:43Exactly. That's what I want to say too. It's it's not her fault. I mean, she was an alcoholic. It may have been her, it may have been her responsibility. I mean, it was her responsibility to do something about it, but yeah, nobody, nobody decides that they want to grow up one day and drink themselves to death. That's just not how it works. 1 00:10:06Oh my God, that's intense. Oh my God. 2 00:10:10It was intense. I, I, but you know, another win for me is that I totally dealt with it. I did not sweep it under the rug. I felt sad. I cried. I talked about it. I felt low, you know, that day and the next day. And, and, and I, you know, that's, all I can do is honor the feeling. 1 00:10:30Right. And, and I think like breaking the cycle right. Of denial. And also, yeah, the way that you talk about it, you know, that's a huge step in a direction that is the opposite direction of the secrecy and the like, shame, right? Like I think that shame, like busting the shame, breaking the shame and saying, you know, this is the truth. This is what happened. And, and shining a light and not being willing to let whatever shame for me anyway, whatever shame keeps us quiet. It really does. 1 00:11:10It really does allow other people to do the same. And I think that's the only way out of, of the hell, which is addiction and mental illness. And so you're doing that so good for you, but, oh, my Najah, that is like a hard weekend situation after you're. Okay. Okay. 2 00:11:32So, but now I want to hear about your, 1 00:11:35Okay. So I, it's interesting. I, as I, as I progress in age, I wonder, I noticing, and I wonder if you notice it, that things, what is it it's that they, they always say, oh, as you get older, you get stuck in your ways. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and it's not true, but I think it's really hard for me to change my routines to change my, I it's just so strange. So I had this friend come lovely human being, but I, but you know, but we have one bedroom and I think I stayed in your house. 1 00:12:23Yeah. It was a terrible idea and no, and a no fault, again, a no fault situation. But what I need to do is say, Hey, the, the, this, this whole staying in our one bedroom on our sofa and our, our sleeper is not going to work unless you're a teenager and a small person. And don't mind being woken up at 5:00 AM, by a dog. And if any of those things are not true, you can't stay here. No, it has nothing to do with that. And it's interesting because it's like, it really brings up sort of like people pleasing stuff for me of like, well, if I ask someone to stay in a hotel, or if I, if I, if I do that, then that means I'm mean, or I'm not. 1 00:13:10I mean, that has really come up for me. And someone said to, or I read people pleasing and it really hit home is a form of manipulation. So, wow. So it is not, it is, that is really like at the root. And I was like, okay, well, if I look at it like that, I don't want to manipulate others. I really don't because I don't like being manipulated. So if I see people pleasing as that, instead of just like we're talking about and like covering up for someone, if I see it as dangerous and not acceptable behavior and something that I wouldn't want happen to me, then that helps me to make choices and how I interact in my relationships. 1 00:13:53So amazing reframe that's exactly what it is. And I could never put my finger on it before, because I think, well, people pleasing sounds nice, please. People sometimes, no, it's manipulation. It's total manipulation. And it, it, it it's, it's, it erodes the fabric of relationships and you can't have a real relationship. So like, right. I rely, I've also relied on other people like to say, oh, you know, they have a one bedroom. I'm not going to stay there, but people are going to do what they're going to do, whether it's for financial reasons, or it doesn't matter, they do their dance. That's not my responsibility. 1 00:14:34My responsibility is to not manipulate through people pleasing because I'm afraid to, to say, Hey, our place is teeny. You cannot stay here. Cause we'll all lose our mind. And she wanted to stay five nights originally. And I said, no, no, no. I said three. And we left Santa Barbara for one, I took her away to Santa Barbara, which was the smartest thing I could have done just for space reasons. And, but anyway, but I'm just learning like, as I get older, like there are things that used to be negotiable for me that are non-negotiable in terms of like sleep. I need a certain amount of sleep for my mental health and physical health. 1 00:15:15I need a certain amount of, I have to respect my husband's space and sleep, and I have a dog and it's a whole different thing. And the dog, I brought this dog into our lives. So to say to the dog, you have to behave differently because we have a guest and you're you're three months old, 3.5 months old is also not okay. I mean, look, the dog is fine. And I, but like learning that I have to take responsibility for my life. It all comes down like this is nobody else's life. This is nobody else's house. This is nobody else's journey. 1 00:15:55And, and, and I'm going to stop manipu, being a manipulator. And by doing that, I have to really commit to, to not being a people pleaser. It's really interesting. It's really, it hit home so hard when I saw that quote, I was like, oh my God, that is the truth. 2 00:16:11Yeah. That, that just changed me. I, it makes perfect sense because the way, the reason that we became people pleasers was for our own survival. It's not like we said, gosh, this person really needs are. I mean, it's really not altruistic in, in any way. It's, it's the opposite of that. It's just as selfish as the Eddy other behavior might be considered 1 00:16:37Really interesting. And I think it, it, it, it for women and stuff, it sort of becomes second nature and like, like acceptable, you know, people pleasing does sound really great. And like, you're being very compassionate, but it's not that for me, it is definitely, I don't want to feel an uncomfortable feeling and I don't want to risk you being mad at me. So I'm gonna just do this and then be resentful and then nothing changes. And I reinforced the behavior. 2 00:17:08You get the impression that that person also understood that it wasn't a great idea. 1 00:17:16No, because I get it. I think that that person is just in doing their own thing and isn't, and has a different, I don't know, like it is not a people, pleaser is more of a something else. And so that's why we attracted each other. And so, yeah, I just got the feeling that that person was just doing their thing and like, could not sense. 2 00:17:44Yeah. And the other thing is when you live in LA New York, Chicago, or maybe even some of the other large cities, people are always coming into town and people are always wanting to stay with you and you always have the right to say is, it's just not going to work. I love to see you. I'd love to hang out with you. I can recommend a great hotel across the street. Right. But you just can't stay. 1 00:18:09No, it just doesn't work. And it does, it really upset, upsets the, the, what is it? Homeostasis of the, of my whole vibe, my whole life, you know? And, and, and yeah, and that's just the truth. 2 00:18:22I personally can't imagine at my age ever wanting to stay. I mean, I don't even want to stay with my own family. Like I do. I go and stay with my mom, but I, you know, if, if I had all the money in the world, I would always just stay in a hotel. Yeah. It's just, it ma it makes for a better time together when you're with the person, if there isn't any resentment about like, how, what you like the temperature to be when you're sleeping or how loud you can be, or what time you getting rid of that. 1 00:18:57Yeah. And that's just the way to do it. So I'm learning, you know, I'm a learning and we're learning, what else is going on? 2 00:19:05What else is going on? I do. I'm doing like some intense sort of writing exercises with my theater group, where we started this new thing of writing five minute plays. So you, so we have, we pick a, there's a word of the week. We pick up the word and then there, we pick a prop and we pick a line of dialogue that everybody has to use. And then we'd go away and write the little play and come back and present it the next Monday. So we just did it for the first time, this past weekend. And we presented last night and it was really fun. I ended up writing something that I don't know that I would have written otherwise, like, you know, because I had to incorporate these other things. 2 00:19:50And it's, it's actually a really good way. Writing exercises are a very good way to get out of your own ruts. You know, like if you find yourself always writing the same character, always writing the same type of dialogue. If you get some externally imposed restrictions on what you can write, it leads you to think in a way that you might not otherwise. That's fantastic. And what else, what else have you got going on meetings or writing wise? 1 00:20:21Nothing. Right now. It's interesting. It's sort of like a lull in between. People are supposedly reading my script. I'm the head of roadmap to see who he thinks might be a good rep, but he, but like life, like people forget about you. I mean, that is just the truth. It's not that you're forgettable. It is that we're all forgettable really. And that people have a big life. So I, I wrote him and said he was supposed to read it and pass it to another person at roadmap writers and say, Hey, which reps do you think that we know might fit this? And what, what do we think this pilot needs? And, and is she ready to be wrapped with this, with this pilot and then that, so I'm in a hole I'm sort of in a holding pattern, but the big news is my husband got a full-time job. 1 00:21:09Praise, Jesus. 2 00:21:11I know. Awesome. 1 00:21:13He got a full-time regular 2 00:21:15Waiting for that for the longest time. It was 1 00:21:17Like two years in the making and the guy hasn't had a full-time permanent job in 20 years. He's been a contractor for 20 years. So this was like a huge step. He starts on my birthday, October four. And, and we were just relieved and so grateful. And it was, you know, it's also though a good reminder, like then I go into, because I'm a human I'm like, oh my God, well, he has to keep this job and he can't lose this job. I mean, it can get insane. So I'm really telling myself, like, stay in the day, the guy just got the job. Everything's a process nothing's permanent anyway, stay in the day, stay in the day. So that's really that's. 2 00:21:54Yeah. That relates to the thing that I wanted to run by you, which is that tendency that urge, you felt to then want to control, like how he stays in the job, or that's very familiar to me. And I was talking to somebody about it recently, somebody who was complaining that in their family, any thing negative is never tolerated anything. You know, it's like any, any challenge or struggle you have is like, you have to stiff upper lip it to the point that this person doesn't feel like they can ever say, I mean, even something simple, like 1 00:22:42I don't like this of like, 2 00:22:44Yeah, I don't. Yeah. It's like, well, but you have food and you you're going to be grateful for it. So, and she was, she was telling me that, you know, there was this long period of time actually, where she hadn't had a job and then she got a job and she hated the job. I mean, she wasn't quitting it, but she, she hated the job. And whenever she would say anything to her family about it, they would say, yeah, but you're really grateful. You have the job. Right. And for a while, she was like, oh yeah, you know, she's feeling badly that she shouldn't have any bad feelings about it. The thing about feelings is you just don't get to decide what they are. I wish you could. I really wish you brought program. 2 00:23:27And just say like, no, Siri, I don't want to have this feeling right now, but that's one thing we haven't outsourced yet. You simply can't control it. What the feelings you have are the feelings you have. The only thing you can control is the outcome. And it makes sense. Like, if you think of people who in past generations, we're in poverty, like there's no room for any, no thing, but you know, putting your nose down and doing the work. And I get that, but we're not living in an agrarian society anymore. And people have complaints. And, and by the way, generations ago, they had complaints to just the, the fact that they weren't allowed to say it out loud. Doesn't mean they lived happy. 1 00:24:05Exactly. Well, I think it's, it's just comes back to exactly what we're saying is about addiction and mental illness and everything is like, just because you don't speak it out loud actually doesn't mean that there's not a whole torrent of storms inside of you. It's still there. It's just that you're not expressing it. And it has to go somewhere. 2 00:24:25They go somewhere. And that makes a lot of sense too. Like if you think about how the body is processing trauma and, and it'll just go somewhere until you, you can deal with it. And same thing is true for frankly, every emotion, you know, the best, the best gift you can give yourself. And certainly the people who you love is the gift of acceptance that this thing has happened. Do you feel this type of way about it and it, and it's okay. It's not. And some people take it too far. It's so, okay. That you can do whatever you want because you have, you know, poor, you, you had to go through. It's not that it's simply just, okay. Yeah. I mean, my, my daughter is actually a good example. 2 00:25:06My daughter, I'll say, she's going through what? I'll call a high, a hypochondria phase. She wants to come to you and say, it hurts when I do this, you know? And I'm like, okay, well, let's, don't do that for a few days. Then I, I mean, in any given day, she'll have seven elements. And my practice is, cause what happens to me inside is I feel, I feel like anxiety shoots up in me immediately. And it actually, it took me a long time to know that that was happening. And then it took me a little while to figure out why would I have that reaction of well, because that's how people reacted to me when I like we can't afford you. 2 00:25:53Can't be sick. You can't have a problem. We can't deal with that. It, it, it, it doesn't work. So I'm practicing. I'll, I'll keep everybody posted on how it's going. I'm just practicing saying, I'm really sorry that you're feeling that way. Let me check it out. Okay. Let me know if it keeps, you know, if it persists, 1 00:26:13Right? I mean, I think, yeah, it is. So it is so right. It is the first step is realizing what your reaction is. Right. And that is huge to say like, okay, like I, when, when, when a member of my family, you know, like get sick or something, I go to rage, like, how dare you be sick? How dare you allow yourself to have a need and inconvenience everybody. And that's because that's how I treated. But it took me a long time to say, why am I like enraged that my husband has a cold, like, this doesn't make any sense, but it does make sense because I wasn't allowed to have a cold. 1 00:26:53Right. But this is now that was, then he's allowed to have a cold. It doesn't mean the end of the world, but it takes a while to figure out what the hell has he been going on? Yeah. 2 00:27:03Yeah. And I think the other thing that comes up for me when I feel anxiety or rage, when somebody is low, I don't mean this word, but I'm being cheeky, like indulge in their needs. The anger is I didn't get to act like that when I was your age. So therefore you don't get to. 1 00:27:25So it even goes to someone, a psychologist was talking about people who have, and this was me for a long time in public places. When an infant is crying, if you have that rage to shut that infant up a lot of times, it's because you were, you felt that you couldn't do that. Also. We feel, we can't do that as adults when we'd like to start screaming and crying and that, and that, that infant is expressing what we all wish we could. And nobody likes that because it's not there. And I was like, that's so true. And when I looked at it that way, look, I still don't like screaming, infants, who does? I mean, it's just annoying, but it wasn't, it didn't, it doesn't trigger me like on planes and stuff anymore as bad because I'm like, oh, that kid is doing that being is doing what we all wish we could. 1 00:28:13And they're the only acceptable outlet for it. If an adult did that, they'd go right to jail and then they'd be checked in, you know? And, and, but that infant gets to express that and like, wow. You know? Yeah. 2 00:28:26Yeah. So the only other thing I wanted to mention to you is that I, for some reason, my kids were like, mom, the Emmy's were on tonight. We've got to watch the Emmy's. They have never watched any award show to my knowledge. I don't. I think my daughter thought that her favorite YouTubers might be like getting awards. And I tried to say, I don't think they do those kind of, they will soon. Sure. I'm sure there's going to be YouTube awards. And I'm sure they're going to be injustice. I'm sure they're going to outpace the Oscar. Exactly. Cause 1 00:28:57They're just, those influencers are on top of it. Yeah. 2 00:29:00But so I started to watch it. Cause that's the thing I usually like is the clothes and I right away. Did you watch it? Nope. Okay. I right away noticed, wow. So many nominees are actors of color. This is, or not just actors, writers, whatever people of colored. This is great. Wow. Who the tightest is suddenly shifting. And then one after the other, it was like, but then the one white guy was in the one white girl, one like 1 00:29:28I, that big thing that 2 00:29:30Was the big, oh, is that what people are saying about 1 00:29:33More? I believe it was more people of color were nominated than ever before and less one, the actual word than ever before. I mean, 2 00:29:41My God it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like white folks saying you should just be happy just to be nominated. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to let you win. Yeah. There needs to be some type of like in Hollywood. I wish sometimes I wish Hollywood was just like a company that everybody got like a company newsletter, you know? And then this week's newsletter is like, Hey, listen, we are white. Fragility was really showing, you know, you have to remind yourself that it's, you're not recognizing somebody whose work is not doing them a favor. 2 00:30:21It's recognizing their work. It's not doing them a favor when it's your favorite white actress and it's not doing them a favor when it's your favorite blackout. Right. Right. It's recognizing the work it's about the work and all rising tide lifts all boats. And when you have better work, more better work comes out of it. Like, you know, this whole thing about the appetite. Like people always like, well, but it's the American appetite for whatever. Okay. Well guess what Americans, myself included, like the thing that you tell me it alike to somehow agree. And if you tell, and if you tell me that something that I know is shit, you know, is shit. Then, then I go, okay, good. 2 00:31:02I I'm, I, I, that, that tracks with the belief that I already have, we could just make all pro content better. It could all be more interesting. Right. Did you see McKayla Kohl's and I watched, I thought that was brilliant. I thought that was brilliant. She she's brilliant. And that I watched because people kept reposting it and I'm like, oh, she said something brilliant. So let me watch. And I just really appreciated it. And I, I she's, you know, tells you to keep going. And for those of the people who are listening, who don't know the, the, her big thing was it's okay to, or actually you should, as a writer, an unplug because, you know, we get caught up in this web of re what was the word? 2 00:31:48She is, it was not ref visibility, visibility. I think it was, we get caught up in our own visibility and how many people have seen this thing. And we don't, we don't feel like it's real or important until people have seen it, which, you know, there's understandable reasons for that too. But all the time you spend in vexation about whether or not you're being viewed is time that you're not spending, looking at yourself. Yeah. That's what it is. Honestly, we all are just, we want people to see us, but not really see us. Right. We need to see ourselves. So the answer is, as I used to say to my clients, well, the bad news is the problem is you. 2 00:32:28And the good news is the solution is you. 0 00:32:33Well today 3 00:32:39On the podcast, we're talking with Noel wrath. Noel is someone who went to the dealer school for a time when we were there at DePaul university and she left, but wow, she was there. She was a part of what Gina and I have talked about as a spiritual movement or religious movement that kind of swept up the theater school for a time. And she tells us all about that. And she talks about her writing and what she's up to now. And it was very interesting. So please enjoy our conversation with Noel rap. 2 00:33:16She got a French bulldog named Joris. We have a mutt named Wallace, Doris wallets. What's your dog's name? 4 00:33:26Lucky. Lucky. He's a toy poodle. So he's seven pounds of anxiety. 2 00:33:35That's funny. They say that about little jogs that they're nervous. Little suckers. 4 00:33:41No, I know. I was really hoping that I don't know. Somehow we would look out and not have one of those Yippy dogs, but they just bark it everyday. They just are just high alert at all times. 2 00:33:54It's literally their only defense, literally. 4 00:33:58I know. And that's what I keep reminding myself is like, you know, he's just so little and vulnerable that he has to think he's big, but yeah. 2 00:34:08So Noel wrath, congratulations. You survived theater school. Well, 4 00:34:13Yeah, sorta. Yeah, 2 00:34:16You did. You did it and sort of is like the, all for the most part, that's all of us, right. It's like we survived sort of, and we're here, you know? Yeah. 4 00:34:29Well, I mean, I made my own choice to leave, so it's kind of a different scenario, I suppose. I don't think 2 00:34:36I realized that. So yeah. Say the whole time, 4 00:34:40Right? Yeah. I ended up, I ended up deciding to leave right before my senior year started. 2 00:34:48Oh, wow. That was a bold move. What precipitated that 4 00:34:54It, you know, which I suppose we'll get into, but it really was a pretty dramatic spiritual experience that happened while I was in school. And I remember going to Betsy's office to have a conversation with her because I knew a lot of people for whatever reason would take a leave of absence. And I really thought that's what I need to do. I need to kind of figure things out. And I was going in to have a conversation with her about taking a leave of absence. And it was through that conversation that she really kind of, I don't want to say she kind of coached out, but she helped me realize that maybe this wasn't the path for me right now, you know, because I would have to be compromising for, you know, for what I believed was compromising. 4 00:35:54What, you know, what then I was, I was feeling was the sort of like new understanding of, of who I was and my reality. She was like, it's just going to be one compromise after another. And I'm not sure if this is, I mean, she wasn't like, I'm not sure if this is a good fit, but she helped me realize, like I had options. And that was actually really freeing to realize that yeah, 2 00:36:23You said, we'll get into it. Let's get into it right now. I mean, so our, our experience, or I'll say my experience was w w one day a bunch of people seemed like they were all part of one specific group that was, that included the way people dressed, sort of like in long skirts and, and, and going to, I don't even know what the churches, but, but, but going to church, I'm sure. I'm sure it was, it didn't happen in one day, but you're the first person we're talking to who was sort of a part of this. So we'd love to hear what your experience was. 4 00:37:05So well, I mean, just to put it in context, you know, I like coming to the theater school, I was one of those people where like I barely got in, you know, I, I, I did not, I was not as studious person. You know, actually I remember meeting with, I think it was what is her name, Melissa, Melissa Meltzer. And she was like, oh, we'd really love to have you, your, your act scores are a little low. Maybe you could try retaking that. So I actually did, I got a few points higher, but even getting in, I was like right away, sort of on an academic probation, you know, I was just more concerned with my social life than I was about studying, which was sort of what gravitated me towards acting because it's just fun and play and, you know, anyway, so, so as soon as I got to Chicago, I mean, coming from, you know, sort of a small town in Minnesota, I was just like, everything is at my fingertips, you know? 4 00:38:17And I remember one night, you know, kind of innocently with a friend that was in my acting class saying, you know, let's go clubbing tonight. Let's like, see what that's all about. And man, that just opened up a whole kind of world to 1 00:38:35Me that just sucked me in right away. I big world the clubbing. Oh, I did not. I did not. I was not a clubbing. So first of all, were you, were you in the class, did you start school the same time we did I'm con 93, 94 94. 4 00:38:56Yep. So with ed and Erica Yancey who you've had on, I'm trying to think if there's oh, Paul home Quist. Yeah. Okay. And I don't know if, for some reason as I, I always gravitated towards the drug dealers too were like magnets for me. So I had my pick of whatever I wanted and it just really sucked me in big time. So I had a good experience at the theaters go in terms of like, I loved my teachers, I actually got decent roles. I just, as you know, it was always the case with Noel. I wasn't applying myself, you know, like I wasn't really in it. 4 00:39:42I was just so scattered. So, so that was kind of, you know, that sort of like setting the stage or whatever for, I think what ended up being this kind of an awakening for me. So anyway, so it was my third year and I was cast in a two person show Danny and the deep blue sea. And it was, it was Barry was the director and Anthony LoCascio was the, was Danny. And it was really the first like major lead role that I'd ever had. 4 00:40:25I mean, I'd done a lot of musical theater and then leads in that kind of thing, but a straight, you know, dramatic lead was, you know, it was a lot of, it was a lot of responsibility. And I remember Anthony and I taking that really serious. And, you know, we were kind of, you know, like you are, when you're 19, you're, you're exploring, you're having deep philosophical conversations, you know, and we would spend so much time drinking coffee and smoking at the golden app, just philosophizing about life. And we just really were interested in God. 4 00:41:06We were just had a lot of conversations about what is God and what, you know, and in my own, in my own mind, I really thought that I had a clear understanding of who God was and what that meant to me. And I used to always say to him like, well, you're closer than you think. You know, like I really felt like for whatever, I'm like, I had it all too. Like I had it together, like I knew, and I had this close relationship with God because some experience that as I'd had, like as a teenager or whatever, but that's sort of the beauty too, like before you, you do get all indoctrinated is that you are having this experience and it's sort of unfolding as it needs to, instead of someone telling you, this is what you should be believing, or this is what you should be doing or whatever. 4 00:41:57I mean, I really do believe that it's supposed to just sort of unfold and happen in its own time. Do you want to say more about, I'm curious about what happened to you as a teenager that, that sort of exposed you to, well, just, you know, I guess just going way back, I mean, I've just always, I've always been a real sensitive person when it comes to spiritual things and I've always had a deep longing for understanding, you know, what this all is and who I am. I mean, even now with my own kids, I love to talk to them, stuff like that, you know, and just to like, sort of try to pick apart, I mean, I'm always reading spiritual books and just, I don't know where I am. 4 00:42:50Yeah, very much so I don't have any answers, but I just love to dig deep and figure out, you know, what's beyond and how this is all connected and how we're connected and, you know, so I grew up Catholic, but then I had, you know, I went to like some camps with friends, you know, and there you have kind of, you know, emotional experiences and then you feel really close to God for a while. And then about two weeks later, you know who you were. I mean, it was just always this cycle of that, you know, it was like having emotional experiences and, and feeling more in touch with my true self, but then I'm always kind of reverting back to, you know, behaviors that are typical, I guess, if a teen or whoever, but probably weren't the best choices, you know? 4 00:43:54So yeah, so we would, so Anthony and I would, would have these amazing conversations and cliche as it is then of course we developed sort of a relationship, you know, during the show and it, it, you know, that show is very intense. I mean, it's like two hours in my underwear, swearing and slapping each other. It was like, that was the first show that my parents got to see me. Yeah. That's, that's a big one. Yeah. And I remember it was opening night and he comes to me, you know, in the green room or whatever, and he's all excited. 4 00:44:41And he tells me, I went to church and I got baptized today and I was like, whoa, that's, that's awesome. You know, I was so excited for him. And then we go and we do the show and I don't even remember much about the show itself, you know, or truly having any sort of understanding about what we're doing there or who this character really was. But it was kind of after that, that I started going to this church with him and th this church was affiliated with his, his brother, his brother had, had a pretty, you know, again, dramatic conversion, you know, through this church, it's, it's a Pentecostal church. 4 00:45:33And this older man had started a kind of what they call like a daughter work, you know, sort of a satellite church in Schomburg, which is a pretty far suburb outside of Chicago, but that's, that's where they were going. So we started doing a Bible study with Anthony and his brother and his, and his brother's wife. And I just kind of got, I don't want to say I got sucked in, you know, but it really did feel it, it just felt really pure and genuine. 4 00:46:17And I think what's been so helpful for me listening to this podcast specifically is because I don't talk about the experience of, I mean, I don't want to say like joining a cult because I don't think it's a cult. I mean, it has ish tendencies, but I appreciate what you guys have talked about. That everything is sort of a cult. And especially when you're 18, 19 years old, I was always like, how did I let that happen? You know, like how did I let my life like completely go in an opposite direction? 4 00:46:58How did I let myself get so sucked up into like these strangers? Like, I didn't know these people at all. Well, and it's because you are so young and you're completely taken away from your family, you know? I mean, you're, you're out there by yourself. And I think, you know, being in such a, being in such a dark place with the clubbing and the raving and the drugs and everything that goes along with that, I think like deep inside, I was really like longing for something that was more true to me. And, and I was really longing for family and just something that would be like a foundation and stabilize me. 4 00:47:45And it certainly did. I mean, it was a lot of rules, right? You had to follow a lot of rules. It's, it's, it's definitely a more legalistic type of religion and they don't, you know, and it's not like, oh, now you're in like, do this, do that. I mean, they're very, like, I mean, I could tell from the beginning, it was like, no one wanted to talk about it. Like no one wanted to talk about the fact that women are wearing skirts and, you know, like all the other things like, you know, which eventually you start, but it really was more like me realizing it on my own. 4 00:48:26And when I would bring it up, the women would be very like, hold well, but don't worry about that. You know, you just, just do what you're doing. Just, you know, keep coming. Like you could tell that they, they knew that once you are fully in it, typically women start to then have an issue with it, you know, because it's, it is so counter-cultural, and, and there's some pretty extreme things. One being is that you do not cut your hair because it's considered like a covering almost like a veil, like a physical Vale. 4 00:49:11So there, I mean, there was one point where I had hair down to my calves. Like I had not cut my hair in like five, seven years. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't too long into the experience with, with Anthony in this church that I don't know, it's probably even just like three, four months that I started to realize like, oh, all these women are, you know, like they don't wear makeup and they're always wearing skirts. And so I started to ask questions and I really did it on my own. I was like, okay, well, that's, that's different, but that's not a big deal. 4 00:49:53I mean, I could try that, you know? So I just, I would go to thrift stores and buy the most hideous, well, this is a long skirt. So that works. I mean, that's what I like is when you say we looked like we walked out of little house on the Prairie it's because we had like, no idea what we were doing, but it really was coming from a pure place. I mean, 1 00:50:17One, I, I, what really sticks out to me, something that you resonate that resonates really deeply with me is the idea that you were looking for family and as someone who, as a former therapist for, you know, for gang members and for all, it's always that looking to belong. And I'm telling you, if I had been approached, I'm telling you right now, if I had been approached by anyone in your group and sat down and said, we love you. We want you to come do this. I would have done it too. I know I would have, I just wasn't in the it's like I wasn't exposed to it so I could see how 4 00:50:56Well that's, why there were so many from our class. And even younger that for a while were pulled into it. Even Mary Kay cook was one Heather Callington Sarah Whitaker. I mean, she and I were, were best friends at the time. I mean, we all, and then there was, there was other, you know, other people too that, you know, came maybe to church once or twice with us, or, you know, I even remember, I mean, it was like this mini revival was breaking out within the theater school. I mean, it was like, you could tell people for so spiritually hungry. 4 00:51:38I mean, they really, I remember one time, you know, we sort of like posted something on the board, like let's just get together and have a Bible study, like anyone that wants to come and we reserved some room I like in the annex or something. And there was there, I, I feel like there was like 20 to 30 people that showed up and there was such a buzz in the air and, you know, no organization or like, who's really leading this. And, but you could tell there was just such an excitement. People were really hungry for it. And I wish that, you know, the, the church and, you know, the philosophies around this particular denomination, weren't so dogmatic and absolute, because I think that we could have together had a bigger impact at that time. 4 00:52:34But, you know, because certain people were, you know, were more about let's follow the church, then let's all have sort of like a, I don't know, just a more open-mindedness about it to honoring like everyone's perspectives and experiences and where they were coming from. But, you know, unfortunately that, that type of denomination was like, no, you know, it has to be this way. And this is, this is the truth. Like, if you don't see it that way, then, you know, I don't want to, we don't really have anything more to say kind of a thing. 4 00:53:14So that's, that's unfortunate. Did you, 1 00:53:18I just have a question. Did you feel that that buzz in the air that sort of yeah, that was like taking, I wanna know. Did, did they, did, did the teachers get involved? What, what went down like okay. Cause I'm really curious about that aspect and like how they handled it and also, yeah, just that, can you talk about like the culture, like, did the teachers say you have to stop this? Or what, how did it go? Cause I, I was so in my own world, 4 00:53:48I would be, I would love to know what they thought, because I'm sure that they were like, what is going on? Like, it just seemed like they didn't really know what to do with us, which is probably why Betsy, you know, was probably the voice of the majority of the teachers saying, I think it's probably be best if you found a different path, you know, a different career or whatever. Right. 2 00:54:25Because one of the, one 4 00:54:26Of the, I mean, cause what do they do? You know? I mean 2 00:54:29Limitations, if I remember correctly, it is the material. Like there was a L a lot of, I mean, it just, it, the things that people were willing to do, the things that the students were willing to do, the students who are part of this changed really quickly, and it became, I don't want to do material with cursing or sex or 4 00:54:55Yeah. I mean, it was, it was crazy and yeah, exactly. Like, I didn't know. I remember having conversations with a couple of MFA actors and just saying like, what, is there out there for Christian actor? I mean, and of course we know it's like not much and really bad and it's already hard enough making it as a regular actor, you know, willing to do anything and then put all of these stipulations on it. I mean, I was fortunate where, you know, I was so I'm, I'm discovering who I am and I'm kind of transforming as a, as a person. 4 00:55:44And I was still cast in some shows. I mean, I'm sure that was probably I'm sure that was probably intentional, you know, from the, from the faculty standpoint and things where I didn't feel compromised, you know, like I did bridge to Terabithia, which is a children's show. And, and then, you know, under milk wood, which is like, everybody was in that didn't get a main stage or something, you know? So I was able to sort of, I was able to sort of exit gracefully and not feel like I was put in a position where, but I do remember I was in bridge to Terabithia. 4 00:56:25I had, I had really short hair. Cause I went through like the nineties pixie cut phase, you know, remember you with your hair on your little burette right here. Right, right. But I remember, and that was probably part of the reason why I got cast because I had this short hair and I was supposed to play this tomboy. And I remember going to the makeup room and I think it was Nan is her name and her saying now, you know, so we're going to have to keep up this short hair. So let me know when you are scheduling another hair cut. And I was like, oh, you know, actually I don't cut my hair anymore. 4 00:57:10It's like, it's like a religious thing. And you know, that was one of the first things where, and she's looking at me and I'm looking at her like, and I think it was even in that moment that I'm starting to realize, oh, there's going to be a lot of this kind of thing. You know, there's going to be a lot of, oh, I can't do this. Or I don't know. I don't know. Looking back. I'm just, I think that's, what's strange now is that like, I'm listening to everyone's stories about either, you know, going on and being, working actors and coming to a place now where, what we're like 20, 25 years later. 4 00:57:53And they're kind of like, wow, this has been a really interesting choice. It's like a very bizarre life, you know? And for me, I've always hung on to this idea, like, like the, what if, what if I hadn't left? What if I had stuck with it? And I'm always kind of, I don't want to say tortured by it, but there certainly is a part of me that's like, as I've never feel like I've found my place, you know, you still feel that I still feel that way. I've never feel like it's like ever since I left, I'm like now what, what am I doing? 4 00:58:37You know, what did you, when I, right after you left, I left. And I immediately, I stayed at DePaul and I immediately enrolled in the English literature department. So I graduated with an English lit degree and I will say that. And I've always said that that leaving in terms of education-wise was one of the best things I ever did because, you know, at that point now I'm more of a straight and narrow. And I, I really got excited about learning and I finally figured out how to study. 4 00:59:19And I was, I had an amazing liberal arts education at DePaul. You know, I was like introduced to so many amazing works and just classes and professors. So I ended up graduating in five years instead of four, you know, so it took me an extra two years or whatever, but that really kind of helped propel me on, you know, in terms of like my later sort of just love for continuous learning and reading. And, but, you know, I remember even standing in line at graduation and, you know, you kind of, with all of these other English lit people and they had a plan, you know, like they all knew what they were doing. 4 01:00:04Or a lot of people knew that they were going to grad school right away. Or they, you know, they were going to be editors or work in publishing or journalism. And I was just like, I just had to pick something, you know, and something that sort of interested me, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it. You know? So I have been all over the map in terms of, you know, a career afterwards, but yeah. 2 01:00:30So what, what are you doing now? 4 01:00:35Actually, I'm a writer right now. I work for an architectural firm and I do technical writing for that. 2 01:00:44Yeah. I mean, that's interesting though that you you're, that's a completely reasonable career choice and yet you feel like you don't, maybe you're not saying you don't belong to your career. Maybe you're saying you don't feel like you belong in a different way or you don't have your, you don't have your group, you don't have your people. I mean, first of all, did you, did you leave the church? 4 01:01:09I did. Yeah. So let's see. I don't know. I had been graduated a couple of years and I was working as a, you know, like a administrative assistant for a window company. And, and I met my husband through mutual friends and he was, you know, he was part of the church. He had grown up in the UPC, but you know, there was always, I could tell right away, because even though I was in it, I always questioned, I was always questioning. 4 01:01:49It's kind of, part of my nature too, is just to question everything and, and I was always like in it, but then I would backslide, you know, and I would not be in for a while. And then I would come back and backsliding. Or 2 01:02:06Did you call it backsliding? 4 01:02:07Yeah, they called it a, no, it was called, what do you 2 01:02:10Mean? Like when you, when you went astray or something like 4 01:02:12That? Yeah. Yeah. You would like go back to your old life ways, your old life. Yeah. Wow. Because you did that basically like stopped going to church. So you had periods of that. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay. Got it. And you know, there were, cause there was just a lot of, a lot of, a lot about it that I felt was very controlling, you know? I mean, because it is like, if you don't go to church, someone's going to call you and ask you where you were, you know, or, you know, it was just like serious business, your church life and your church, family is all encompassing and there really isn't room or time for anything else. 4 01:03:02Was there any money? A lot of money? No, no, nothing like that. And then what did people do in terms of like jobs? Did they do all kinds of jobs. Cause you're saying it's all encompassing. Did you have to get a certain kind of job or? Oh no. No. I mean you, yeah. I mean, no, you, you know, you're living your life, but I'm saying it's like, you know, it's it's church on Wednesdays and then, you know, two services on Sunday, but then there's also all of these midweek things, like maybe you're doing two Bible studies, you know, on or you're involved in. 4 01:03:45I don't know. You're just, there's always something I just felt like, you know, so there just isn't a lot of time for strain, right. Because you're just, it's, you know, you're always with the same people. But so anyway, when I met, when I met my husband, first of all, he, he was going to a different church, but within that same denomination and the church, you know, every church has its own kind of flavor and maybe rules too, you know, more strict or more lenient or whatever. 4 01:04:27And I just felt like he was also like, he was an intellectual, he was okay with questioning things, you know? And so we sort of connected on that level. And even from the very beginning, I just felt like this is someone that I don't want to say, like we're gonna escape together. Like it wasn't that dramatic, please understand. But I just felt like this is someone that I'm like, I'm going to be safe with and that we're going to be going on this journey together. 4 01:05:12Interesting. And that we, you know, I just had that deep sense from the very beginning. And we did, I mean, we did question a lot of things, but we, you know, we stayed in it for a long time, but yeah, we were living in, in Chicago, that's where he was born and raised. And when I was pregnant with my second child, we ended up moving to Minnesota. So back to my hometown and it was kind of there that we started to kind of break away. I mean, there was a church here that we could have gone to and we, and we did for a little while, but we just started to realize, you know, we're living two different lives and it's not, it's not who we really are or how we really believe anymore. 4 01:06:03So yeah. So it's been a long journey. 2 01:06:06Other people, I don't remember if other people cause like Heather Callington was an R year, she stayed all the way through. She graduated. Did other people leave the program that you know of? 4 01:06:17Well, Anthony did. Yeah. Yeah. He and I left at the same time. Yeah. And he's 2 01:06:22Still, I think he might still be a part of that church. 4 01:06:26Yeah. Yeah. He pastors a church actually in the suburbs. Yeah. Okay. 2 01:06:31So that, that does mean though, that there are people who stayed and presumably kept their faith, you know, and figured out a way to make it work at the theater school. Through, through graduation. 4 01:06:50Yeah. Yeah. I suppose I think Heather really is the only one. Yeah. 2 01:06:56Oh, because maybe what you're saying too is like, after you and Anthony left Anthony, by the way, so charismatic, it makes sense that he would have been kind of the leading the effort on this after he left, maybe it kind of died out at the theater school or do you know? I think 4 01:07:13So. Wow. 1 01:07:16I was there any, you know, it's from the little I know about that church that, and maybe I'm wrong. So please tell me, but like, it seems like it's theatrical in its own way. Is that, is that accurate? That there's like a theatrical vibe to it. So it's kind of interesting that you guys, that you were actors and then this church, it's not just like, you know, the, the Unitarian church or something, which is by the way I've, I've been to, and I fell asleep like six times, this is more like, right. It, it offered, it must have offered some kind of fix of the theatrical. Did it, or am I just totally? 4 01:07:57Oh, for sure. I mean, it's a very emotional experience, you know, and that is part of that's part of what I think draws people in is there's, there's like an alter call you at the end of every service where it's designed to invoke a lot of emotion, you know? And if like, if everyone's not crying at the end, then it wasn't as successful, you know? And at some point, 1 01:08:32Which by the way is like acting class, I'm just saying it's very similar to acting class. So a lot of times theater schools and the rehearsal processes are, if the people, if no one cries, did we really do good work that day? I'm just, there's a lot of similarities. So it makes sense to me that it's just like, it's sort of in the name of God versus in the name of the theater, but it's, it's a similar vibe, man. It's a similar, I've seen, you know, like from watching movies and there will be blood and things like that. Like watching, watching that kind of yeah. Emotional response. That's what we're all looking for, dude. Like that's the thing. So it happened to be in Schomburg with people, but it could be anywhere. 1 01:09:16So I just, I really want to sort of emphasize and like say that like I, in the core of my being get how that I might have taken this path too, and that it is, it's just, I just, we're all looking for a home, like, okay, we're all looking for an emotional home where we can feel like we belong and this has happened to be in a church. But I mean, it's just, so anyway, that's what I want him to say. Cause I was like, oh, these are the there's similar. It's similar theatrical. 2 01:09:49Yeah. And, and all, and we've talked to many times on this podcast about how people find theater school. Well, people go to college in general to, in part to find themselves, but there is something specific about theater school. And I think it might actually be for people who are going into acting. I don't know who I am. I don't know how I feel. Let me just go ahead and learn how to be somebody else, you know, for awhile, because maybe through, and it's a perfectly reasonable way to come to know yourself. Maybe you come to know yourself more through the, okay, well, I'm not that that's not who I am. It's not that I'm trying on all these different selves and you know, until I find the one that fits. 4 01:10:33Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think about too, you know, kind of like how you guys have talked about your are you're so raw at that point, right? Like I had been through two, two and a half years of that sort of stripping down process and now I'm so open to anything. And I think it was just the perfect scenario for me to get swept in, swept up into something like that, that, you know, touches on so many different senses. Right. 4 01:11:13And especially that emotional component. I mean, it was just, yeah, but it's like, I was, I was hesitant honestly, to come on, like, and that's why I had not responded to your emails initially because I was like really humming and high and about whether or not I wanted to talk about it because it's like, although it was, it was, you know, it was sort of a bizarre experience. It was something that happened and it has shaped me and it, in a lot of ways it shaped me for the better, you know, I mean, it really helped me get my act together because I was out of control and, and I keep thinking too, even though there's always this, like what if in my head I'm like, yeah, but what did it prevent me also from experiencing? 4 01:12:07Because if I had gone down that path and ended up in LA and I mean, I was just so naive and so willing to try anything that I'm just, I don't know. It sort of scares me even now when I think about how did I walk out of some of those situations I put myself in, you know, through my club years that I walked out like alive without major trauma or when you do it, a lot of drugs is that what was happening? A lot of drugs, a lot of guys, you know, I mean, it was just not a healthy situation 2 01:12:51Becoming part of the church change any of the relationships with people that you had at the theater school. 4 01:12:59Definitely. Yeah. You know, unfortunately, and, and now what, like looking back, I can understand it because I mean, jeez was like, it did seem like overnight, all of a sudden there was this like group of kids that was just all Jesus freaks, you know? But there were some people that I would've considered pretty close friends that just like cut us off. Like literally wouldn't speak to us. But then there were other people that, you know, just remained true friends and you know, didn't quite understand it, but we're like, whatever, you know, if it's good for you, then that's good. 4 01:13:45You know, I think that's the one thing that I probably regret though, is that, you know, like people walk away from their college experience, like, like you too, you know, and you've known each other since you were 18. And because of the way that I left and, you know, the situation that I was in, I was, I really sort of like cut myself off from a lot of people. And so I just haven't had that same, like, you know, close people that I've known since college, or even been able to like rehash some of these things. That's, what's been so cool about listening to this podcast as a sort of putting pieces to the puzzle together, you know, that I haven't been able to talk about with anyone because I haven't kept in conversation with anybody, you know, over all those 2 01:14:39Touch with anyone that was in the church. I mean, you said, you know, Anthony's is still the church. Do you keep in touch with any of like the Sarah Whitaker's or the, 4 01:14:50You know, we've connected a little bit through social media, but, but not really. Not really, no. 2 01:14:58I'm just sitting here trying to think about, I mean, you and I didn't have a friendship per se, but I, I w I guess the only person in that group that I had a friendship with was Anthony. I don't remember the timing. I wasn't a quasi relationship with him. I 4 01:15:19Feel like I remember it 2 01:15:21Must've been, maybe I, maybe I blame. But when I think about why I would, I was rejecting of people who had become part of that group, all the only thing I can come up with is fear. It's not like anybody started treating me differently. It's not like it was really no skin off my nose that people joined a church. I don't know why I had a problem with it. Actually. Maybe it just, I think it scared me. It seemed sudden, and I didn't really know if it was, I didn't know what kind of church it was. 2 01:16:02I didn't know what it was asking people to do. So actually, you, you, 4 01:16:07Well, I can't blame you for being, I mean, I would have been the same way, you know? I mean, and plus we were just, I think about some of the things that I did, you know, like, I remember we had this one assignment in some acting class where you were supposed to get up and it was just like, sort of like a comedic thing you were supposed to get up. And in one breath, like say all of the expletives that you could, you know, you know, like, like you see that in like a movie, you know, like a Chevy chase scene or something. And, and so I'm sitting there and I'm going, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? 4 01:16:47You know? And I get up and I just, at the top of my lungs scream, I hate you devil What, you know, and actually looking back now, I'm just like, dang Noel. That was really bold of you. I can't imagine something like that now. 1 01:17:10You know, the one thing 4 01:17:11That, you know, but as another classmate, I'm sure they were just like, what? 1 01:17:17Well, first of all, that's a dumb, dumb assignment. I just have to be honest like that. Okay. Let's just, but that's just my judgment about the assignment. But also then knowing that like, look, I think I remember I was away. I think I was not in school when this went down, I had taken a leave of absence, I think. Right. Cause it was right before 4 01:17:39Ready with Nicholas cage. I remember that rumor 1 01:17:43Mill. That's hilarious. You hear that's hilarious. 4 01:17:46Yeah. You were like a unicorn. That's hilarious. 1 01:17:50Meanwhile, I'm like drinking myself to jump over here. But anyway, that's funny, 4 01:17:55Jen is a personal assistant to Nicholas cage. Like I was like the top, you know, like we couldn't believe 1 01:18:04Meanwhile I was, I was miserable, but anyway, so all right. And we, we all were in some ways, but the other thing I'm realizing is that it does take a certain amount of chutzpah to be like, I am going to bel

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Squid Game (Netflix, 2021) which is streaming exclusively on Netflix. Grace predicts an Emmy and/or Golden Globe nod for Netflix next year due to Squid Game. She then breaks down Squid Game's critique and deep analysis of neoliberalism, the show's sexism (a common problem caused by most male Korean filmmakers), Lee Jung-jae's stardom, Hwang Dong-hyuk's sly way of exposing his filmography on the show by inserting Gong Yoo and Lee Byung-hun as cameos, and Squid Game's critique of global hierarchy, capitalist patriarchy and white supremacy. Grace's guest is Hamburg-based Vietnamese German comedian Mai My (@maimycomedy on Instagram). They discuss bad living situations as teenagers, massage requests used as sexual assault, friends who saved their lives, media as trauma-bonding and reliving trauma, and mother complexes.

We talk to Kate McKiernan

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Dear My Friends (tvN, 2016) which is streaming on Netflix in non-South Korean territories. The show features veteran Korean actors including Oscar-winner Youn Yuh-jung, Mother (2009, Bong Joon-ho) actress Kim Hye-ja, Na Moon-hee, Go Doo-shim, Shin Goo and Go Hyun-jung. Grace mourns the death of comedian Norm Macdonald and celebrates having met comedian Bobby Lee at the Comedy Store. Grace talks about the progress she's made with CBT, and the importance of triangulating therapy with spiritual work and meditation for self-improvement. Grace's guest is LA-based comedian, musician, and rapper Glenn Bolton (@g_rillah) whose EP We Eatin Out Here is available now (link is on his Instagram bio). They discuss barbeque, being supportive to friends with substance abuse problems, Glenn's music career, getting bullied as a child, how lousy Hollywood can be as a neighborhood, and what it takes to be a good man. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

In this episode of "Rip It Up," Milo and Kev are joined by actress Emmeline Hartley to discuss, studying theatre remotely, how we view the world, and we have a lot of laughs. Follow on Instagram at: Emmeline Hartley @EmmelineHartley Milo Denison: @milodenison Kev Bamboo: @bmboo_creatives --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/unemployed-actor/support

Intro: R.I.P. Michael K. WilliamsLet Me Run This By You: LoyaltyInterview: We talk to Kelly McAdams

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Record of Youth (tvN, 2020) which is streaming on Netflix in non-South Korean territories. Grace is still on the road. She discusses disorganized comedy festival runners, the US Open Women's Championship game between Leylah Fernandez (19) and Emma Raducanu (18) who broke all odds and expectations, giving women inspiration and hope everywhere. Grace then talks to Berlin-based clown, puppeteer, performance artist, cabaret and comedian Duckie L'Orange. Duckie's act "popohund" or "bumdog" appeared on Das Supertalent (Germany's Got Talent), and has over 3 million views on YouTube. She also showcased her work at the Sydney Opera House and the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Grace and Duckie discuss the importance of artist residencies, performing drag king, Duckie's philosophy behind puppets and clowning, and how COVID-19 has turned every individual on earth into a woman by being told to stay in the house and what to wear. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the Netflix-exclusive K-drama DP (2021, Netflix). Grace pays tribute to late LA comic Fu. Rest in peace. Grace does a deep-textual analysis of DP, Korean masculinity, militarism, South Korean military's homophobia/transphobia, what desertion means in the face of dehumanization, corruption, cronyism, bullying, hazing, assault, the perpetual cycles of toxic behaviors, and consequences of standing up for one's beliefs. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: parenting puppies and kidsLet Me Run This By You: Why don't I like The Matrix?Interview: We talk to Mia McCullough SEE TRANSCRIPT (unedited)

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Coffee Prince (MBC, 2007) as a queer text for both queer pleasure and queer upset. Grace cites Jack Halberstam's theory on female masculinity and Judith Butler's theory on gender as a performance in reference to Go Eun-chan's tomboyism. Grace's guest is Dr. Mark Hussey who is a Virginia Woolf scholar and now professor emeritus of Pace University's English department where Grace earned her B.A. Dr. Hussey is the author of Clive Bell and The Making of Modernism: A Biography which is newly published by Bloomsbury Press. He and Grace discuss what the purpose of reading a biography is, how to harness anxiety for productivity, what the English major is, why theory and jargon are necessary, how the fear of the future never stops, and what it takes to be a good feminist as a man. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: outlet mallsLet Me Run This By You: reimagining Ferris Bueller's Day OffInterview: We talk to Susan Bennett

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show It's Okay, That's Love (SBS, 2014). Grace's guest is Los Angeles-based comedian, writer and actor Conner Shin. Conner is a UCB alum who also writes for the animated show Harley Quinn which is on HBO Max. They discuss learning how to skateboard as an adult, expanding our comfort zone, the meaninglessness of the word “stupid,” how to cope with depression, how to deal with late people, how to deal with people who ignore messages, and how the fact that people with penises can pee anywhere makes them less considerate individuals. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Condragulations Let Me Run This By You: The David Chase method  Interview: We talk to Blake Hackler about surviving multiple theatre schools on both sides of the equation.

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show My Princess (MBC, 2011). Kris Jones, PhD Candidate at the UCLA film school kicks us off with some hilarious answers to Grace's flashcard questions, which Grace recorded on UCLA campus on her graduation day—June 11, 2021. Grace's guest is Dr. Bambi Haggins who is a media studies professor at the University of California Irvine and the author of Laughing Mad: The Black Comic Persona in Post-Soul America [https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/laughing-mad/9780813539850]. They discuss the character development of orphans, Lovecraft Country, Insecure, the pressure of being from a working-class family, intergenerational wealth and privilege, Black joy, white fragility in the face of basic difficulty, “affluenza,” the craft of writing, why Louis CK does not get the n-word pass, Tony Hinchcliff and Gary Gulman using the c-word in reference to Asian American comics, their admiration for comics like Maria Bamford, Margaret Cho, Jackie Kashian, the systemic and structural impediments that marginalized individuals suffer from, the reminder of our individual freedom and self-worth in the face of neoliberal powers that be, and our gratitude for the real influencers who are teachers we remember best. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.Grace added 3 upcoming shows in Los Angeles on her website: https://aechjay.com/2021/08/15/shows-this-week/

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Reply 1988 (2015-2016, tvN) and the significance of late 1980s student demonstrations for the democratization of South Korea, the Seoul Summer Olympics, and her love for Lee Dong-hwi. Grace then has a chat with Joe von Hutch (@joevonhutch on Instagram) is a comedian, writer, activist and attorney based in Berlin who co-founded DADDY Media. Joe talks about growing up in New York, going to Berlin for the first time as a teenager, the love and ubiquity of German beer, aging during the pandemic, racism in New York public schools, how to read the American Constitution, gun safety laws, how the British royal family members are aliens, systemic issues that bind British and American history of slavery to this day, and white supremacy's willful disconnectedness from humanity and utilizing our affect and feeling to navigate in the era of “woke” economy to manifest diversity, equity and inclusion in our lived realities. (For context, the bulk of this interview was recorded in April.) Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: It's a loooooooooong con. Boz rocks it on #coverflyLet Me Run This By You: Are #stans just modern day gladiator fans? Also, Bhutan.Interview: We talk to Sean Gunn about

[Spoiler Alert] In this episode of K-Drama School, Grace discusses the show Secret Garden (2010, SBS) as a queer text in how it depicts gender fluidity, and compares it to Korean shamanism. Grace also discusses her journey towards fearlessness, bullying in the Korean church, cleaning out house (the mind) of misconceptions and misperceptions of the self through self-compassion exercises. Grace then talks to comedian Kelly Ryan (@thisisKellyRyan on Instagram) about chihuahuas, diets, feminism, Texas, dating a fellow comedian, and navigating passive-aggression and pretense in Portland and LA as a Tri-State chica. Follow @KDramaSchool on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Visit kdramachool.com to learn more.

Intro: Boz is getting an adorable dog, affairs and the ESPRIT outlet.Let Me Run This By You: KNOW YOUR WORTHInterview: We talk to Dawn Vanessa Brown about Syracuse, theatre outcasts, making it in New York City, and finding yourself in St. John.