Podcasts about 33so

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. If you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you know that I'm passionate about customer service and listening to customers. A few months ago, we noticed something wasn't working on the Oh Dear dashboard. We reported it to them, and they fixed it almost immediately. Everybody has bugs occasionally, but not every company is so responsive to their customers, and we really appreciate that. You can sign up for a 10 day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Colleen Schnettler  00:35So Michele, I'd love to hear about how things are going with the book.  Michele Hansen  00:40They're going. Um, so after our episode with Sean last week, I realized that I kind of, I have to launch this thing eventually, right?  Colleen Schnettler  00:54Yes.  Michele Hansen  00:55And, you know, for, you know, I mean, for months I've been hearing that advice of, you know, do a, do a presale and like, start selling it beforehand, And, and I was like, yeah, I mean, you know, I, that's the best practice. That makes sense. And then just kind of be like, but that doesn't apply to me, right? Like, I couldn't make, um. It's, you know, it's funny, because it's almost, I feel like the way people feel about when they hear about customer interviewing, they're like, that sounds really valuable and like the right thing to do, and I'm just gonna act like that doesn't apply to me.  Colleen Schnettler  01:29Yep.  Michele Hansen  01:30So that's kind of how I was, and talking to Sean really kind of got me to be like, okay, okay, fine. I should actually sit down and do this. So I got a very simple website together, and then I actually did end up launching the presale.  Colleen Schnettler  01:46Oh, congratulations.  Michele Hansen  01:48Yeah, that was super scary. Like, because the book  Colleen Schnettler  01:50I bet. Michele Hansen  01:53And, like, random places where it says like, insert graphic here. Colleen Schnettler  02:01So tell us how many books have you sold?  Michele Hansen  02:03Okay, yeah, so I guess I get to do, like, a numbers update for the first time. This is fun. Um, so I have sold 34 copies.  Colleen Schnettler  02:15Wow.  Michele Hansen  02:16Presale. Colleen Schnettler  02:17That's a lot.  Michele Hansen  02:18So, and that's not including for like, you know, platform fees and whatever. Just like, you know, $29 times 34, basically. $986.  Colleen Schnettler  02:32That's amazing. Congratulations!  Michele Hansen  02:35So close to that, like, 1000 mark, which, I was talking about this with Mathias earlier, and he's kind of like, I feel like that's like a, you know, that's like, the legit threshold, is 1000. Like, and I don't know why, but it's like, yeah, it's like that feels like, that feels like the, the, like, the first big hurdle.  Colleen Schnettler  02:55I totally agree. That's wonderful news. Congratulations.  Michele Hansen  03:00You know, I expected to feel excited, or relieved, or something positive after releasing it, or the presale, at least. And I gotta tell you, like, I just feel pressure. Like, I'm really glad I didn't do this sooner.  Colleen Schnettler  03:25Really?  Michele Hansen  03:27Yeah. Because now I have, you know, at least 34 people I can't disappoint. Colleen Schnettler  03:32Right.  Michele Hansen  03:32And I feel like, just like, the pressure to make something that is a quality product, like, I already had that pressure on myself to put something out there that I'm proud of.  Colleen Schnettler  03:44Yeah. Michele Hansen  03:46Now I have all these other people who are expecting that, and not that anyone has emailed me and said anything to that effect, but that's how I feel. And I was thinking about this earlier. And I was like, man, like, writing and selling this book has like, brought out all of these, like, vulnerabilities and, and self-doubt and everything, like all of this stuff that I like, thought I had dealt with and then it's, like, sort of like bursting out of the cabinet, being like, hey, I'm still here. So it's, you know, I mean, I have tools to, like, deal with that, but it's been like, oh my gosh, like, I thought I had dealt with, like, I never feel this way about anything about Geocodio, like, so.  Colleen Schnettler  04:33So, this is interesting, because I, when I was feeling a similar way, many months ago, I don't actually know if I talked about it on the podcast, but I had a very high value client that I had a great relationship with that needed a file uploader, and mine wasn't quite done, and I had this moment of terror, panic, I don't know, where I was like, I shouldn't use mine because, because if I put it on my client's site, like, it has to work, right? There's no get out of jail free card, Kind of like, you've now sold this book. Like, you have to finish it.  Michele Hansen  05:07Right. It's not just like, throwing it in a PDF and then like.  Colleen Schnettler  05:09Yeah.  Michele Hansen  05:10Oh, whatever, nobody paid for it. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, it's like, no, this is, like, this is serious now.  Colleen Schnettler  05:17Yeah. And I think something that, that I'm thinking of as you're talking about this, I remember at the time, Alex Hillman had a really great tweet thread about you're not scared of failure, maybe you're secretly scared of success.  Michele Hansen  05:32Mm hmm.  Colleen Schnettler  05:33It was really interesting. Like, just when you think about, like, the psychology and all of these new insecurities coming to light for you, like, maybe you're scared of success.  Michele Hansen  05:42You know, and it's so I feel like we should have them on the podcast more, because I feel like they are, like, Amy and Alex in some way are like characters on this podcast, they're just not actually on the podcast. But like, the amount we talk about, you know, 30x500 and everything. She had, I think, I think it was her, or maybe, no, or maybe it was Dani Donovan, the woman who does the ADHD comics. But I think it was Amy, had a thread, like, couple months ago that was like, you know, people with, or maybe, I don't know if she has ADHD, so I don't know if this was her. Okay. Somebody had a thread that was like, you know, people with ADHD, like, you don't ever feel accomplished when you finish something. It's just over. And then you're on to the next thing. And it was like, yes, like, I expected to feel something when I finally got that out there, and now it instead feels like, oh, now I have to put in the graphics. Now I have to do the cover art. Like now I have to like, like, it just, it didn't, there was never this, like, moment of, like, feeling accomplished or anything like that. It just, it just rolled into the next thing. Colleen Schnettler  06:58Interesting. I don't, I don't have that problem. Like, that doesn't happen to me. I mean, but it's interesting, I find that interesting because one of the things, for me, is when I accomplish something, even if, I feel like if I'd been in your position and I got the presales out there, I do feel that, like, internal satisfaction of hitting that goal, and that's what keeps me motivated. So, if you don't get that same kind of dopamine hit, doesn't that make the whole process kind of painful? It doesn't sound fun.  Michele Hansen  07:28Well, what I do get that from is people, like, you know, positive reinforcement from other people. Like, so I've been asking people for testimonials to put at the front of the book. And on the one hand, that terrifies me, and, and then on the other hand, when they do come in, and people are talking about how the, the book and also sort of newsletter and like, like, all this, all this stuff is all sort of meshing together, has helped them, and what it has helped them do, and how they wish they'd had it sooner and everything. Like, that makes me feel good. That makes me feel like I am delivering the, like, a product that is worth somebody paying for, and that I can be proud of seeing how it's impacted other people. But I like I, I don't really get satisfaction out of achieving things, which is really ironic, because I think about younger versions of myself and I've like, you know, I describe me in high school as an achievement robot, like. Colleen Schnettler  08:39An achievement robot.  Michele Hansen  08:41Yeah, you know, you're, like, just taking as many AP's as you can and your life is over if you don't get in a top college. You know, that whole, that whole song and dance that turned out to be a lie, because now I work for myself. Not at all bitter about that. Anyway, um, yeah, it's but, this, so that is really, like, keeping me going or like, people tweeting out you like, hey, like, what is the book coming out? And part of me is like, oh, my God, am I gonna get them by then? But like, I've been getting a lot of really good reinforcement from people, and that, and I think that's, for me, that's been one of the really big benefits of building in public is not, not necessarily knowing that, exactly that people are going to pay for it and how much they're going to pay and having that money up front, but knowing that I'm creating something that is useful for people. Like, that is what keeps me going. Colleen Schnettler  09:31That sounds great, too.  Michele Hansen  09:33But now I got to finish the damn thing, so.  Colleen Schnettler  09:35Yeah. Now you gotta finish it.  Michele Hansen  09:37I was saying that the release date would be June 24. I actually just had to push that back to July 2, because I just, I don't think I have enough time.  Colleen Schnettler  09:44Yeah. Michele Hansen  09:45I do have an idea for the cover. Like, I want it to be like a terminal printout that's like, basically like installing, like, you know, like installing like empathy and like, loading scripts. Colleen Schnettler  10:00That'll be cute.  Michele Hansen  10:01Like, sort of corny. Developers aren't the only audience for it. But I also want them to know that this is a resource that is, like, accessible to them.  Colleen Schnettler  10:14Yeah. Michele Hansen  10:15I don't know. I have zero artistic abilities, like, I can't even, like, think visually, like, so I have so many people who are reviewing the draft right now, which is pretty amazing. Some of them are, like, super close friends of mine who are harsh editors, and I'm super grateful for that. And others are, like, people I have never even met who are so, I guess, so taken with, with the idea of the book that they're, like, helping me edit it, and I have never met them before, which is just so moving. But anyway, so someone has been giving me a lot of feedback on like, oh, like, this should be a graphic and like, this should be a graphic. And I'm like, I'm so glad you're saying that because it would have never occurred to me that that could be a graphic because I communicate in speech, and in text, and there's -  Colleen Schnettler  11:01Yeah. Michele Hansen  11:01Not a whole lot of pictures going on.  Colleen Schnettler  11:03Yeah. Michele Hansen  11:04So, so, yeah, I gotta kind of get all of, all that together in the next couple weeks. And like, hopefully release the, like, the print-on-demand version at the same time, but it's unclear. And then after that, I get to do the audio book, which, honestly, I'm really looking forward to, because then I just have to read the book out loud and as a podcaster, I'm like, I got that. Like, this does not involve any pictures. Like, I am good. Colleen Schnettler  11:32No pictures required.  Michele Hansen  11:33No art skills required. Colleen Schnettler  11:36Are you gonna hire someone to do the graphics? Have you figured that out yet?  Michele Hansen  11:39No, I've been making them in PowerPoint.  Colleen Schnettler  11:42Okay. I'm just saying there's - Michele Hansen  11:45Really simple. Like, there's not going to be like, pictures-pictures, like. Colleen Schnettler  11:47Okay. Michele Hansen  11:48If it turns out this book is a huge hit and I need to do a version that actually has pictures and like, somebody doing, like, professionally doing the layout then like, yeah, I'll, I'll do that, but.  Colleen Schnettler  11:59Yeah, so. Michele Hansen  11:59I mean, so like, more like flowcharts if anything, or like, putting something in a box so that it's, like, called out like even that kind of stuff. My brain is like, doesn't.  Colleen Schnettler  12:09Have you ever seen, there's a couple of people I've met at conferences that are developers, but they're also visual thinkers. And so they'll like, make sketch notes of someone's conference talk. Have you ever seen these? I'm going to send you some after the podcast. They're so cool. I mean, for your, for, you know, especially to hit, like, the developer audience, that would be, and that might be like version two of the book, but like, like sketch notes, or something would be super cool. Like, I could see a lot of cool opportunities here.  Michele Hansen  12:37Yeah, I tried to use something called Excalidraw, and I think my problem is like, I just don't think visually.  Colleen Schnettler  12:47Yeah. Michele Hansen  12:47Like, I never graduated beyond stick figures. My, my efforts that were beyond stick figures are hilarious. Like actually, like, yeah. Um, so I probably should, like, should bring that in, you know. But again, I mean, the book has only made, you know, just under $1,000. So I'm not, I'm not, I don't really want to, like, go out and hire an artist for a couple $1,000 for it. Like, I don't feel like that's a reasonable- Colleen Schnettler  13:21Not yet. Not yet. Right. I mean, that might be in the future. Yeah. I feel like that's not yet. I totally get that.  Michele Hansen  13:27Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's-  Colleen Schnettler  13:34It's exciting. I'm glad we gave you that push. I mean, I kind of felt like I gave you that push when I was basically like, you're gonna have this up by the time we launch this podcast, right. I'm happy. I hope it wasn't too stressful. But I'm happy you got there.  Michele Hansen  13:49I think I needed the external deadline because- Colleen Schnettler  13:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  13:52And again, this is kind of one of those, for me, ADHD things. Like, I need an external deadline because if it's a deadline I've come up with then it's not happening. But like, the reason why the book was, is gonna be out by July 2 is because, like, our, well, it was gonna be June 23 because our daughter finishes school for the year on June 25. So I was like, it has to be out before she gets out of school. But then I remember that she has a week of summer camp. So I'm like, okay, I have another week.  Colleen Schnettler  14:16You have one more week. Michele Hansen  14:18No, it has to be done before she gets out of camp because otherwise then I, you know, I won't have as much time, so.  Colleen Schnettler  14:25Yeah. Michele Hansen  14:25External deadline. Super helpful. Yeah. How's, how's stuff in Simple File Upload world? Colleen Schnettler  14:33So, things are good. I, you know, signups have still been consistent, but because I lost that big customer, I'm just below 1k MRR. So I haven't really seen that reflected in-  Michele Hansen  14:48Is the big customer the one that, like, wasn't using it and you couldn't get in touch with them?  Colleen Schnettler  14:53No, that person's still there, but like, I lost one person that was, like, a tier below that, which is, because I have three tiers. And so things are fine. I mean, I'm not seeing a big increase, or really any movement on the revenue because of the churn at that level, at that more expensive level. But I'm pretty excited about some of the things I'm going to be trying to do in the next couple months. My summer is crazy. So I had at first resigned myself to just not really working on Simple File Upload for a couple months. I was like, I'm just gonna let it sit. It's doing great. It requires almost no customer support. But then,  Michele Hansen  15:32I mean, a thousand dollars a month, and then it recurs is like.  Colleen Schnettler  15:35Right! It's like, I mean, okay, can we talk about how awesome this is? By the way, this is awesome. Like, after fees and stuff, after I pay my hosting fees, and my storage fees and my Heroku fees, I clear like 606, 650. Like, that's like, pretty cool.  Michele Hansen  15:52Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  15:53It's like, I'm not so much. So I wasn't upset about this. But like, I just needed to see kind of where my life was and what I was doing. And I was like, I might just have to sit on this for a couple months because I don't have the time. But then I got an idea. So I am going to take, really what happened is I was really inspired talking to Sean last week about 30x500. I have never taken that course. But I read, like, everything Amy Hoy writes on the internet, and so I kind of feel like I get the idea behind Sales Safari, the idea being find where your customers hang out and find out what their problems are. Conceptually, it seems easy. I just haven't had time to do that. And him, he said last week that he spent 80 hours. Think about that. So he was trolling Reddit forums for 80 hours. That is a lot.  Michele Hansen  16:45I mean, I probably already do that, and there's no business purpose behind it. Colleen Schnettler  16:49It's just no focus to it, right? So, so that's, so I really think I'm at this inflection point where what I have is working. It's doing great. I don't need to build new, more features until I know what features people need. And as we talked about, I think two weeks ago, different audiences want different features. As a solo founder, I do, with a job, I don't have the bandwidth to build all the features for everybody. Like, I'm not trying to take on CloudFlare, right. I really want to niche down and find my people and build for my people. I can't do that until I know who my people are, and I still don't really know. So, I am going to hire someone to do some of the Sales Safari research for me since I don't have time.  Michele Hansen  17:42Oh. Colleen Schnettler  17:43Yeah. So I'm kind of pumped. And by someone I mean, my sister. She, yeah, so it's like, you talk about how, like, you love having a business with Mathias.  I would love to have a business with my sister. Like, I would love for her to be able to work for me, for this to become a real company, and, you know, for us to do this together. So she is just coming off her maternity leave. She has decided not to go back to her job. So she has only a little bit of time because she doesn't have a lot of childcare, so she has, like, one day a week that she's going to work for me doing marketing research and Sales Safari, and I was to kind of trying to teach her, like, what I think is useful. We're both kind of learning as we go, neither of us really knows we're just making it up. And we're gonna do that for the summer and kind of see where it takes us.  Michele Hansen  17:55Yeah. Wow, wait, so what is her background in?  Colleen Schnettler  18:35She's an environmental consultant. Michele Hansen  18:37Oh. Colleen Schnettler  18:40So she actually, it's in no way relevant. But she's, so really the deal is she's a writer. So in her job as a consultant, what they do is they, they have to write these, like, epic report. So her background is really in writing. So originally, she was gonna write content for me, and she wrote me a couple pieces, but it's really hard to come in, since she doesn't have the technical background, it's, I, and my, my audience is developers, like, I need really technical content. So I don't think she's going to fit as a technical writer. But she's going to do, she's taking a class in SEO. So she's going to do, like, keyword research, and she's going to jump into the forums and Reddit and try and like, find out what people's pain points are surrounding file uploads. Michele Hansen  19:24You know, it sounds like you guys have a good working relationship together. Colleen Schnettler  19:31Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, all problems, this stuff that I was thinking about. All problems are people problems, right? So, if you want to control your business, and I'm just hypothesizing here, the number one most important people, but the number one most important thing is the people you work with, and I can't think of anyone else I'd rather work with. So, I think she'll figure it out, or she'll hate it and if she hates it, then she won't do it anymore. I'll find someone else. But that's kind of our plan. I'm pretty excited.  Michele Hansen  20:02Like, yeah, you, if you have someone that you work well with, and you believe that they're capable of learning what you would need them to learn, then, you know, like, you trust them.  Colleen Schnettler  20:17Yes. Michele Hansen  20:17And that matters.  Colleen Schnettler  20:18Yes. Yes. So yeah. So this summer, for me, is really for, for Simple File Upload, I think, is really going to be a focus on figuring out what niche to serve. I was talking to another friend, and he just got a new job, and he works for a big event management company. And he pointed out, you know, he was, he actually mentioned you, because he listened to the podcast, and he was like, these huge companies, they don't care about the little guys who are making a million dollars a year. And his point was, they don't care. So he's like, if you can carve out a niche in one of these huge industries, like, you can be incredibly successful, and like, these big guys, they don't care.  Michele Hansen  20:58No. And you know, on your sister, it might be really interesting to have her do interviews with people because she will be completely coming in with a beginner's mindset. Like, I find this is something that is difficult for people to adjust to like, like, we've talked about when, when someone says like, oh, like, could I do this? And you start thinking through, like, whether they could and how you would implement it, or you know-  Colleen Schnettler  21:23Right.  Michele Hansen  21:24Talk about what they wanted to do, and you just like, oh, of course, you wanted to do this because of this, and like, you don't even question it. But she, but she would be like, well, why do you want to upload a file in the first place? Like, Colleen Schnettler  21:33Right.  Michele Hansen  21:33Well, how is that, how does that work? Because she's genuinely beginner. Like, I feel like, in some ways, the fact that I don't have a geography background has been an advantage for- Colleen Schnettler  21:45Yeah. Michele Hansen  21:46You know, for this because like, I don't come in, you know, with it, with all of these preconceived notions about why someone would want to do this.  Colleen Schnettler  21:56Yeah. Michele Hansen  21:56So I think that can be really interesting when she gets her feet wet, and kind of a sense of what's going on, to try to talk to the customers.  Colleen Schnettler  22:05I think that's a great idea. I hope we can grow into that. I definitely think there's opportunity there. I think of her as like you, and I'm like Mathias in the power couple building of a company. So we'll see. I mean, she wants to get into mark, we kind of are going down this route, because I don't have enough time. I want to do it, I need to do it, and she wants to, really she wants to transition into a remote career that's flexible, like most parents, and she's really interested in SEO and marketing. So, I think it's gonna be a fun little adventure. I'm excited to see what she finds out. Part of this was also, I think we've talked a lot about, I have an interest in no-code. So I had a call with the Jetboost IO founder, Chris. Michele Hansen  22:51Yeah, Chris. Colleen Schnettler  22:52Who, I believe, you know, as well, because you're a mentor and he- Michele Hansen  22:55Yeah, I mentor him through Earnest Capital. I literally just had a call with him the other day. Colleen Schnettler  23:02So I had a call with him, independent of your call with him.  Michele Hansen  23:06Which we didn't know about. Colleen Schnettler  23:07Which we did not plan, to talk about opportunities in the webflow space. And, so I think one of the first things I'm going to have my sister, well, not the first, but one of the things my sister is going to try and do this month is really see if there's a need in Webflow. The thing about Webflow is, in 2018, Webflow introduced their own file uploader. So before that, there was a huge need for it. Now, they have their own file uploader. So it might be that what I provide is no longer, you know, something people need or want. So before I go and build an integration with Webflow, I'm going to have her do some Sales Safari research. They have really active forums to kind of see what people are looking forward to see if there's opportunity there.  Michele Hansen  23:54Yeah, Chris was telling me that they have a, like, feature upload, like a feature up vote thing where people go in and request features.  It's exciting. Colleen Schnettler  24:03Yeah, I think it's gonna be great. I think, I think it'll be fun. It'll be good to have someone actually dedicated to reading Reddit and Webflow forums and Heroku forums and whatever, to try to identify, you know, the need there and in the file uploading space. And then with the SEO research, you know, I can then either write the content myself or hire someone to write technical content, depending on my time commitments, my time, you know, what I can do, so. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I think, you know, the interesting thing about file uploading and Webflow is they have a maximum size of 10 megs, and I, you can't do multiple file uploads at the same time. So the question is, how many people really care? Like, who really, did, are there enough people that are uploading large files, or want to do maximum, or, I'm sorry, want to do multiple file uploads at a time that it would be worth it for me to make an integration into that space. So, so, you know, she's going to kind of dive into that and see what we can find out and like, this is just gonna be a fun marketing learning time because I built this thing because I wanted to build something, as you know, and I'm really happy that I built something to scratch my own need because it's worked out really well. But I still haven't really honed in on who I can serve best, and there's lots of opportunities out there, so. Michele Hansen  25:42There's a lot to be, I think, sort of learned and discovered here, and, and also that SEO work you can do, that, like, that can also inform the kind of feature development that you do, too, like, because there, I mean, this just happened to us the other day, like there was something that I noticed we had a couple of customers ask us how to do, and so I wrote up an article about how to do it, and then, but like, to basically do it manually. And then I just saw this morning that it's, like, our top performing growing piece of content and has like a 400% increase in clicks, and-  Wow. And looking into like, oh, how might we add that? And it's like, okay, maybe we should like there's, you know, SEO isn't just for bringing in customers, but also for figuring out what, what people might want as well.  Colleen Schnettler  26:38Yeah, and you've said before, I think that SEO is your number one channel? Activation channel? Michele Hansen  26:44Yeah. We, we don't run paid ads. We don't do any outbound sales. Like, we occasionally sponsor conferences, but that's mostly because, like, our friends run them, and it's just like, kind of-  Colleen Schnettler  27:00Yeah. Michele Hansen  27:00To support our friends, like we're a sponsor of Longhorn PHP, the Texas PHP conference. But like, that's just because our friend runs it.  Colleen Schnettler  27:12Okay.  Michele Hansen  27:13It's not very, like, organized or intentional. It's just like, sure, like, we'll help you out.  Colleen Schnettler  27:18Now, when you do SEO, do you do, like, now you just said, like, you were talking to a customer and then you got this idea of a good page, but do you do traditional keyword research as well? Michele Hansen  27:34Maybe? Like, we use Ahrefs.  Colleen Schnettler  27:36Yeah, I don't, okay. Michele Hansen  27:39I don't know, I still don't know how to pronounce the name of that company.  Colleen Schnettler  27:42I know, yeah, I don't either.  Michele Hansen  27:43But yeah, Ahrefs, we use that. We used Google Search Console for a long time, which is honestly a really good tool, and it's free, because Ahrefs is, is pretty expensive. But yeah, you can do keyword research and rankings and referrers and all that kind of stuff. I don't keep a super close eye on it. Um, but yeah, whenever we're, you know, we, every so often, like every couple weeks or so we go in and look at what content is performing and what else we might need and whatnot. Colleen Schnettler  28:19Cool. Yeah, I don't know. I really haven't done, I've done absolutely zero keyword research. So I think it's probably worth our time to put a little bit of effort into that to see what people are searching for to get a better idea of how to use those tools. Michele Hansen  28:36Yeah, I mean, our approach is, you know, find those keywords and then write stuff that people might be searching for and show them how to do it with Geocodio, and I think I like that because I, and I think we talked about this is kind of something that I have struggled with with the book, is, like, I struggle with sounding salesy, like and writing, like conversion copy, like, it's just really something that I feel like I sound way too infomercial-y when I tried to write it. Like, you know, there are people who are really good at writing conversion copy and sounding like a natural human being when they write it, like, I mean, you know, Amy Hoy is one of those people. But I, you know, I might as well you know, be like, hocking something on the Home Shopping Network when I try to write it. So, so like writing be like, oh, you're searching for geocoding? Hello, we do geocoding. Here is how you can do it in like, like, all of these different ways you can do it and rephrasing all of those different things. And then here's where you can try it. And then here's where you can do it. And it's very, like, straightforward. That's like, maybe you need it. Maybe you don't. All of those options are fine. Not, like, buy this now or you will die. Colleen Schnettler  29:56Yeah, I'm hoping with our keyword research and kind of, like, since I haven't done this at all, you know, with what, the marketing research she does, as you've talked about, I think a lot of that is going to inform my content and building out future landing pages. So, that's really going to be a focus for me is like, trying to get content and you know, pages out there that appeal to people. Michele Hansen  30:24Well, I'm going to be spending the next week working on the book and you're going to be onboarding your sister and getting this research going. Sounds like we got our work cut out for us.  Colleen Schnettler  30:34It's gonna be a good week.  Michele Hansen  30:37All right. Well, I guess that'll wrap us up for now. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. We use Oh Dear to keep track of SSL certificates. If an SSL certificate is about to expire, we get an alert beforehand. We have automated processes to renew them, so we use Oh Dear as an extra level of peace of mind. You can sign up for a ten day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Michele Hansen  00:28Hey, welcome back to Software Social. So today we're doing something kind of fun. We're leaning on the social part of Software Social, and we have invited our friend, Sean Fioritto, to join us today.Sean Fioritto  00:44Hey guys. Thanks for having me.  Colleen Schnettler  00:47Hi Sean. Thanks for being here. Michele Hansen  00:48So, and the reason why we asked Sean, in addition to being a great person, is that Sean wrote a book called Sketching With CSS, and as you all know, I am writing a book and figuring it out. And there is a lot of stuff I haven't figured out, especially when it comes to, like, actually selling the book. Like, I feel like that, I feel like the, writing the book is, like, I feel like I kind of got a handle on that. The whole selling the book thing, like, not so much. Um, so we thought it would be kind of helpful to have Sean come on, since like, he's done this successfully. Colleen Schnettler  021:36So Sean, I would love to start with a little bit of your background with the book. What inspired you to write it? How did you get started? Where did that idea come from?  Sean Fioritto  01:50Yeah, so I wanted to quit my job.  Colleen Schnettler  01:53Don't we all? Michele Hansen  01:55Honest goal. Sean Fioritto  01:56I always wanted to go on my own, be independent, run my own business. That's been a goal for a very long time. So, I tried various things, you know, in my spare time, with limited to no success for years and years before that, and I was just getting sick of, the plan was, you know, I'm like, okay, I have this job. And in my spare time, I'm gonna get something going and then, and that just wasn't working. So I was getting impatient. Anyway, I ended up signing up with Amy Hoy's 30x500 class. This was seven or eight years ago. So, I signed up for that class. Actually, wait, I'm getting my timeline a little mixed up. So, I started reading stuff by Amy Hoy. It's funny, I'd actually bought another book that she wrote, and she used her sort of process for that book. And I bought that for my, for my job earlier. And I was like, oh, this Amy Hoy person is interesting. And so I started reading her blog, and then she has these things she writes called ebombs. You guys are probably familiar with that term. But they're basically content that, it's educational content directed at her target, you know, customer, which she would call her audience. So I was just, she, at that point, she had started 30x500. I think it was actually called a Year of Hustle at that point. And so she had all this content, and I was just devouring it, because I was like, she gets me. She knows my problem, and this is awesome. So I was just reading everything that she could write, that she wrote, and, you know, finding any resource that she'd ever written about, like, what's her process, because she was talking about this mysterious process that she has, she, she would talk about it. And I was able to sort of reverse engineer part of her course, the main thing called Sales Safari. So I'm not, I'm at my job, coasting, doing a half-assed job, spending a lot of time doing Sales Safari, trying to figure out what, what product I should do. Not product, but that's not the way to think about it with Sales Safari, but trying to figure out like, what, who, what audience should I focus on? And what problems do they have, and what's the juiciest problem that makes sense for me to tackle? And then, and she would call them pains, by the way, not, not problems. So what's the juiciest pain that they have, for me, that was like, be the easiest for me to peel off, and, and work on. So I started digging, and it was like, alright, well, what audience makes sense for me? This is kind of the process, and it was like, you know, like web designers, web developers, because I was a web developer. And so like, what are the, you know, audiences that are close to audiences that I'm in is kind of ideal. So I started there, and then I just read and read and read. I probably put like, 80 hours of research time into that process.  Colleen Schnettler  05:05Wow. Michele Hansen  05:06That's a lot. Sean Fioritto  05:06Of just reading and reading and reading and reading, and taking notes. And really understanding and whittling down and figuring out my audience, and figuring out, so the thinking, the benefit of that amount of time spent deliberately going through a process like that is that at some point, I became so in-tune with the audience that I could identify, and this is gonna pay off for you, Michele, this, this little story, because this feeds into like, how do you sell it. At some point, it meant that I could tell when a thing that I was, like a piece of content marketing that I was working on, was going to resonate very strongly with my audience and be worth the effort, if that makes sense. And it didn't really take much. Like, after I got done with that much amount of research, it was sort of, like, pretty trivial for me to come up with ideas for content that I could write that I knew people were gonna just eat up. And so that's, that's how I started building my, building my mailing list. And then that's how I eventually, Colleen, to your question, I came up with Sketching With CSS, which it was a solution to a pain point that I'd identified in my audience, which at that point was web designers. Colleen Schnettler  06:37How big did your mailing list grow? Sean Fioritto  06:39I have 20,000 people on my mail list. Colleen Schnettler  06:4120,000? Michele Hansen  06:42Holy guacamole.  Sean Fioritto  06:46Yeah. So like I said, I got really good. No, no, no. Michele Hansen  06:51I've got like, 200 people on my mailing list, or like, 220. And like, for context, that's like, 200 more people than I ever expected to have on the mailing list, and hearing, like, 20,000 feels very far from, from 200. Sean Fioritto  07:10Yeah, well, let me say something that will hopefully be more reassuring. The, Amy and Alex, for example, they've been running 30x500, for years, and I think their mailing list is just now approximating, like 20,000 or so. And like, the, they have been making so much money with that course with a significantly smaller mailing list. And that's a really, like, high value product, too. So anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I really think they only have like, a couple 1000 people on their mailing list for a long time. And then, for me, I launched pre-sales of my book, at that point, my, I think I only had, boy, I used to, I used to have this memorized. But like, it's been so long now. But I think I only had like, it was less than 2000 I think. I think. So, and even then, I don't think you need that. I know people that have launched with much smaller lists than that, and, and it was fine. Because the people that are on your list now guarantee it, your, will be very interested in, in buying the book. You know, that'd be like a low, low barrier to entry, assuming like, your mailing list is one of the ways that you're thinking of selling the book. Michele Hansen  08:26Yeah, I guess. That's not a good answer. But like, I, I, I actually, I admit, I'm a little bit like, wary to kind of hit it too hard. Like, I would probably send out like, like, if I did a pre-sale, which I guess I should. Actually, I had someone a couple days ago, who has been reading the drafts, who actually I think is also a 30x500 student in the past, say that they wanted to, like, pre-buy the book and asked me how to do it. And I was like, that's a great question. I will figure that out. And like, so maybe do that, and then maybe one more when, like, the book comes out? Um, yeah, cuz, so I've been thinking about the newsletter as a way to draft the book because I find writing an email to be a lot easier than, like, staring at a blank cursor just, you know, blinking at me. And I guess I haven't really, like, and like, people signed up for it to read the draft of the book, so I guess I almost feel bad like, using it for sales too much. Like you know, I want to let people know that the book exists, but like, I don't want to. I don't know, does that. Sean Fioritto  09:45So, it's very considerate of you to think about that. Michele Hansen  09:52Another way of saying that another, also a way to not make any money off of this. Sean Fioritto  09:57Well, yeah, that, but also, it's kind of inconsiderate of you to not be thinking about all the people that really, really, really want to buy it and also would like to read anything that you're writing right now. Like, you're just completely leaving them out there to dry. And there are definitely people like that on your mailing list. So, they're like, there's like, some people on your mailing list are not going to be interested in your content if you're sending it too much, or, or just in general, really lightly interested in what you're writing about, or mistakenly signed up for your mailing list, which at this point, you probably don't have that problem. So like, to some extent, that's always the case, and it used to bother me a lot. I would send an email, and sales emails especially would result in bigger unsubscribes after every email, because you know, your little email tool tells you like, can, you know, so nice of it to tell you like, this many people unsubscribed after you sent this email. And it's always a big jump after like, a sales email. That used to bother me a lot. But then I started, kind of watching even my own behavior, and you probably do the same, and you probably like, look forward to some emails from some people that hit your inbox from some newsletters that you're looking forward to, and you'd very much like them to send you more. And then there's other people where you're like, well, I signed up for that, like, a couple years ago, and I just am not thinking about that anymore. And I need, like, to like, whittle down my content. So you unsubscribe. So then you become that unsubscribe number on the other end of the person sending the email, but like, you weren't annoyed, you didn't mind. It was just like, time to move on. And that's usually the case. So I think people can just unsubscribe as long as it's easy. I would literally put it at the top of my emails. So like, because I would send emails very infrequently. I was not disciplined about that. And I still don't think that that's a problem. But the, but because I sent them infrequently I put at the top like, hey, you know, you signed up for this, because you probably read this thing I wrote. You weren't interested in the book, whatever, if this is not for you anymore, just unsubscribe, like, first thing. So that always made me feel better about sending emails. And also, I don't know, I think that's the right thing to do so people just know, like upfront, that you know, oh, okay, there's the easy to find unsubscribe button when they're done. And then that's fine. Michele Hansen  12:26We did that for Geocodio once, like, I want to say it was like a year or two ago, and our lists had been like, super disorganized. And like I think we had, we were sending stuff like, we send like one or two marketing emails a year from MailChimp. And then we also had Intercom, and those things didn't sync up. And so like, sometimes people would unsubscribe in intercom and then like, not be unsubscribed in MailChimp, or like vice versa. And then, since we didn't send a lot of email, we used MailChimp's pay as you go. And then they just like, shut down their page and go option a couple of years ago, even though we had a ton of credit, which was a little annoying. And, and then, so like, the next time, and I think we migrated over to Mailcoach. And so the next time we send out an email, we actually like for some reason, we were like, there's probably a lot of people on this who have meant to unsubscribe. And so at the very top of the next email, we put an unsubscribe link and we also put a link to delete their account. And like, a bunch of people did it, but then our number of people who were unsubscribing later on like, went like, way down. So it was like, ripping off the band aid basically. Sean Fioritto  13:36Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think like, I don't know, when people unsubscribe from Geocodio, at this point, it doesn't like, break your heart anymore, I'm guessing. Right?  Michele Hansen  13:45No, I mean, we're like, we're kind of like jumping into something that has been very much on my mind, but I hadn't been wanting to admit that it was there and just trying to like, pretend that it's not there, which is all the dealing with rejection around either, you know, people being mad that they were being sold to or negative reviews. And I like, you know, it sounds like you kind of have a process for, like, accepting those feelings.  Sean Fioritto  14:19It used to bother me a lot.  Michele Hansen  14:22Like, yeah. Sean Fioritto  14:24Yeah, it used to bother me a lot. There are two things that I hated. I hated frontpage Hacker News, and I hated getting angry emails.  Michele Hansen  14:33Oh.  Sean Fioritto  14:35I also got creepy, tons of creepy emails. Once you get, like, past a certain threshold and the number of subscribers you have, the creepiness factor increases. Yeah. Yeah. But the, but I got used to all of that. I just realized, like, there's just some percentage of people that are just angry right now or whatever, like, whatever they're going through. And I know that, like, I am very carefully crafting things such that the most, most of my content is not self-serving, most of it is directly a result of research that tells me that this is a problem that people are having, and now I'm helping you. So I'm like, I never feel bad about those, and then even the sales emails, I started to not feel bad about those, too, because I'm like, this is also a thing that's helping you. But that took a while to get to. I mean, honestly, it did. And it got worse when it became my only source of income, which added extra, extra feelings. But yeah, there's a lot of feelings to like, get through. And now I have just developed more of a thick skin, you know. Like, I'm not terrified of having a super popular article anymore, or, you know, stuff like that. That doesn't, that doesn't bother me anymore. I think it just came with time, just like with you and Geocodio. I mean, I'm sure you are used to like, some fluctuations of revenue, which probably bothered you a lot at the beginning, but now, not so much. I mean, I'm just, I'm guessing, but that seems, you know, I'm sure there's some things they're that you've got a thick skin about now. Michele Hansen  16:12Oh, my gosh. I mean, for years, every time a plan downgrade came through, like every time it was like a punch in the gut. Like, and yeah, I think now that I, I guess I trust the revenue more, I'm not as impacted by it. It's more like, oh, I wonder, like, why that was. Like, did their project end, or like, you know, like, what happened? But yeah, in the beginning, especially when it was first our like, when it, when it became my, like, full time income. I mean, as, as you said, like, that is really painful. Like, I'm curious, like, so you,  so like, when did you start writing the book? Sean Fioritto  1705Let me think, like, like the year, or a timing, like, in terms of the timeline?  Michele Hansen  17:12Whichever one you want to go with.  Sean Fioritto  17:15Yeah, I can't remember the year cuz it was a while ago. It was like, eight years ago.  Michele Hansen  17:19Oh, wow. Okay. So you started, Sean Fioritto  17:22I think it was 2013 is when I started. Yeah. Michele Hansen  17:24You did the, sounds like you did 30x500 first, right? Sean Fioritto  17:30Yeah, I had the, I had started writing the book before 30x500. But like I said, I was ,I was following her process already at sort of reverse engineered it. And then I felt like I just owed her the money for the, for the course. So, plus I wanted to meet her, so. Michele Hansen  17:44Yeah, so you started like, the research process basically, like, like 30x500 like, was only one part of your, like, research. Like, cuz you said you had sort of, you had figured out what her process was based on the blog posts and whatnot before you took the course. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  18:00Yeah.  Michele Hansen  18:01Okay. Sean Fioritto  18:02Yeah, and at that point, I had already generated the research I needed to see, to choose Sketching With CSS as a, as a product. I pretty much had, I think I had a landing page. I hadn't done pre-sales yet, but I was, I was gearing up for that. Michele Hansen  18:17You are so organized. Colleen Schnettler  18:19Michele, do you have a landing page?  Michele Hansen  18:22There is a website.  Colleen Schnettler  18:24Okay, I didn't know. Michele Hansen  18:26I haven't told anyone about it because I talk about,  Colleen Schnettler  18:29Your secret website. Michele Hansen  18:30I actually have two. I thought of the domain name, or like, the name for it in the shower, and then I like, immediately like, ran for the computer to see if it was available. And I actually bought two, and then I think we put, like, a book, oh my god, I just typed it wrong. Colleen Schnettler  18:55This is the part where you tell us what it is.  Michele Hansen  18:57There's nothing on it, and actually, if I say it now then we have to have something on it by, Colleen Schnettler  19:01Well, there's no way to pressurize a situation than to tell us right now. Michele Hansen  19:06So okay, it is DeployEmpathy.com. Okay, okay, crap, now I have it out. I don't even know how I'm going to sell it. Okay. So um, and I think I have another one, too. But yeah, we have like, a very basic like, WordPress template on it. Like, it's not, it's not, okay. While I was trying to figure it, so like, people keep asking me like, oh, like, when's your book coming out? And I'm like, I have no idea. I have never done this before. I don't know what steps are ahead of me. So, okay, so you started writing the book while you were doing research concurrently, and then how, and you were also, Sean Fioritto  19:48Oh, sorry, there's two types of research.  Michele Hansen  19:50Okay. Sean Fioritto  19:51So, we could clarify that. There was my audience research and understanding the pain that I was solving, and then there's the research about the book. I didn't have to do as much research about the book. I mean, I already, like, the type of book I ended up writing, I already had, you know, the expertise I needed to write that book. So yeah, I was, audience research was already done by the time I was writing Sketching With CSS. So I wasn't doing research like that while writing the book. Michele Hansen  20:16Okay. And then you also had the landing page up, and you started building your list while you were doing this research and writing phase. Okay, so how long did it take you from, like, the time that you had the idea for the book to when people could, like, buy and download the book, like, just like, the big picture? Like, how long did that process take you? Sean Fioritto  20:45Well, I mean, keep in mind, that ton of the work was while I was still full time working, in theory. Michele Hansen  20:56I mean, I guess I am, too, right? Like, this is not my full time thing. Sean Fioritto  21:00Yeah, but I think like, from, from, from research to launch, like, book is done, it was like, in the four to six month range. Michele Hansen  21:14Okay. Okay. So I think I started at like, the end of February with the newsletter, and it's May, so that's like, yeah. I do feel like I'm doing a little bit of, I think what we have termed Colleen does, of putzing in the code garden, rather than selling things or doing marketing or whatnot. And I am totally doing that with my manuscript, I guess you could call it. Sounds so fancy. And just like, moving commas around and like, totally procrastinating on making images for it, like totally, totally procrastinating on that. Okay, so it took you like, four to six months to get to that point.  Sean Fioritto  21:59Yeah, there was a, there was a launch in between there. Michele Hansen  22:02So when was the like, so was your pre-sale your launch? Or like, how does that work?  Sean Fioritto  22:08You could do lots of launches.  Michele Hansen  22:11This is like, the part that is like, just sort of like, you know, in my head, it's like step one, write book, like, step two of question, question question, and step three, profit. Like that's sort of where I am right now. Sean Fioritto  22:24I feel like you're already doing most of the things that I would do. The, the one thing, so alright. So you're, you're working in public, so you're getting interest via Twitter. You're writing to your mailing list. You're doing the right thing, which is writing content for your book that, you know, is also useful to your mailing list, like, independently. Like, like getting double bang for your buck is smart when you're doing this kind of business. So you're keeping your list warm enough. People are, you're building anticipation, people are telling you you're building anticipation, because they're like, hey, when do I get to buy this book? So, you know, you're basically doing all the things. As, you know, from from my perspective, looking in, it seems like you're just accidentally or intuitively doing the right, doing the right stuff. The thing that's missing between like, what you are doing and what I did is probably, I would press pause on book writing and do specific content marketing things just to build my mailing list. Michele Hansen  23:37But I love putzing in the code garden.  Sean Fioritto  23:39And I'm not, I'm not, sorry, I didn't mean to say that as like, you should do that. That's what I would, as in like, I was doing that. And I don't know, Michele Hansen  23:48And you wrote, like, a successful book and sold it, and it was your full time job for a period of time. So you're kind of here because you're good at this and because I need to be told these things. Sean Fioritto  23:59Right. Well, I'm just saying what I did. But it's, it's really ultimately you get to pick and choose what you do. The, you know, I actually happen to very much enjoy the process of coming up with content that I knew would be popular and writing it and sharing it everywhere and doing all that stuff. And also, I knew I needed to because I was going to try and make this my full time living, so I'm like, I need more people on my mailing list. So that was pretty important to me based on the goals I was trying to achieve. The, the other thing is though, like, even with a small mailing list, your book as the, a lot of book sales are gonna come from word of mouth. Like, I sort of forced the book onto the scene. But like, it's not a, the Sketching With CSS is not like a, while the marketing theme is, like, the marketing message at the time, it doesn't connect anymore because  the world has moved on from that phase of web development. But like, while people could read the marketing, the landing page and connect really strongly, and, you know, be interested in the book, the book didn't really lend itself well to word of mouth, because it's not like, it was not like a, oh, you should read this, like, it's this lightweight, like reading recommendation. It's got to be, you've got to be like, ready to commit to learning a bunch of code. So it's like, there's like, a smaller group of people at any given time that are like, at that point, does that make sense? Versus your book, it's, it seems like, it's like a higher level of value, like, it's a more abstract, then like, here are the, learn this code. Here's how to type in Git commands, here's how to do that. You know, like, I was really like, down at the, like, here's what you're gonna be doing day to day in your job. And you're giving them the same message, but like, in a way that can be, that is at like, a higher level, it's maybe easier to read, you know, in your spare time. It's like a business book, has the same qualities of, like, successful business books. So, I think that you may not have to do any of the content marketing stuff that I was doing is what I'm getting at, because, like, I can already tell, I'm ready to read your book, and I'm ready to recommend it to people, because it does it solve, like, a question that people have all the time, and a problem people have, and they're like, oh, I wish I knew how to, you know, talk to my customers more effectively, or understand, you know, the types of customers that are gonna be interested my products, or what problems they're having, etc, etc, right? Customer research, that kind of thing. That is a topic of conversation that comes up a lot in my communities that I hang out in, and so, you know, your book’s gonna be like, at-hand for me to recommend. That's, that's what I suspect. That's my, that's my theory for your book. Michele Hansen  27:00Yeah, I guess, I mean, there's parts of it, definitely.  Sean Fioritto  27:02It's also got a catchy name.  Michele Hansen  27:04Hey, I thought of it in the shower, and then I ran to register the domain, which is exactly what you are supposed to do when you have a good idea for something right? Like, this is the process. Colleen Schnettler  27:13Definitely. Michele Hansen  27:13Like,  Sean Fioritto  27:14You already had a book though, so it's different. You're like, I'm gonna write this book called Deploying Empathy. And you already, like, wrote it. So I think you're good to go. Michele Hansen  27:20Yeah, actually I didn't have a name for a while. Okay, so, so something else I have, like, a question on, which you kind of just sort of touched on with that about, like, super practical elements. So some, some of it is you can, you can definitely sit down and, and you could probably read it in a sitting or two. But then there's, there's the stuff that's more like a toolbox with all of the different scripts, which, by the way earlier, when you were saying like finding the type of content that people are really hungry for like, that, like, those scripts are the thing that people are the most excited about. The problem is, there's only like, so many sort of general scenarios. So I've basically written the main ones, but, so something I noticed with your site, which is SketchingWithCSS.com, just for everybody's reference, so you have the book plus code, which is like, your basic option for $39. And then you have one with the video package for 99. And then you have another one with more stuff for 249. And then there's one with like, all the things for your team for 499. And so, something that people have asked me for is like, like, there's the book piece, and then there's also, people want to be able to easily replicate the scripts so that they can then like, use them to build their own scripts off of it, and like, modify them and whatnot. So people have said, like, well, that could be like a Notion Template, like, bundle that it's sold with, or Google Docs or, or whatever. And so I've been like, kind of like, how do you sell the book with this like, other bundle? And like, can you also do that, like if you sell like a physical book to like, if I did it through Amazon, like, could I also sell a Notion Template bundle or something? Like, I just, I'm kind of, that sort of like, something that's on my mind is like, I'm not really sure how to approach that. And I'm wondering if you could kind of like, talk through your approach to creating like, different tiers, and what you provided at those different tears.  Sean Fioritto  29:33Mm hmm. Right. So, at the time, I know, I have a more sophisticated thought process about it now, but the, when I did the initial set of tiers, it was because Nathan Barry told me that I should have three tears because it tripled his revenue. So I was like, oh, okay.  Michele Hansen  29:53I mean, that's a good reason.  Sean Fioritto  29:55Like, we just happened to be at the bacon biz. That was the other person that I was, I bought his book. So here's the thing I always do, I would buy people's books that way I could email them. Michele Hansen  30:08Is that a thing? Like, if you buy someone's book, like, do you have a license to email them? Sean Fioritto  30:13Well, you get one. You get one email. And as long as it's, you know, not creepy. That's, that's the main thing. But yeah. So we had a bake in this conference in real life, and then, yeah, that's what he, that's what, he told me that I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I think Patrick McKenzie was there, too, and he said something similar. So I was like, oh, because they did a landing page tear down for me at that conference. That's right.  Michele Hansen  30:36Wow. Nice. Sean Fioritto  30:37Yeah. So anyway, so I did the, I did that, because somebody told me to. And in fact, it's true. Like, if I hadn't done that, you could just see like, the way the purchases ended up that like, that absolutely almost tripled my revenue. So,  Michele Hansen  30:53Oh, wow. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  30:54Which is a big deal for books, because it's not like, yeah, anyway. The, the, the way, the way you were talking about it, though, because there's another way to think about it. I was thinking about in tiers with the book, but another way to think about it is in terms of a product funnel. So your, your book could be super cheap, and it is the entry point into your product, your little product universe. Because like, you're, what you're doing is naturally, because you're literally writing a book about this, listening to your customers and understanding that they have other like, you're really understanding what their, their pain is, and you see that there's different ways that you could solve it for them, right? Those things as a product. So you could bundle that stuff into your book, you could create tiers, like I did. And maybe it does make sense, we talk about this more, but like there's, there's, there's different ways to do tiers with books that, that makes sense, that aren't exactly what I did. But also, like what you're describing is basically different courses. So let's, so, like, people that run these info product businesses, like, what you end up with is like, you've got this world of courses, and you've got this world of content. And people come in from like, search, you know, or whatever channel that you've worked on, usually it's like an SEO channel, like through your content. And then they enter your automated marketing system. And then the first thing they do is buy probably your cheapest thing, your book, and then you're moving them on to the next level into your email marketing system to get them to start looking at, you know, your course, which is like a more in-depth version of the book, or whatever. So anyway, I'm just sort of sketching out, like how, how these content marketing businesses tend to work. So you kind of end up in their little universe and then you just get bounced around all their various email automation. If you've been in anybody's like, any internet famous person's little, like, email world, you'd probably notice eventually, if you're there for long enough, like, I already got that email. And so anyway, so let's there's like a different way of looking at it. You don't have to do tiers. You could just sell your book, you know, digital version, here's the hardback version, you make it cheap, and then, you know, lots of people, lots of people read it. And then you, turns out that this is still really interesting to you, you still like solving people's problems and you're like, you know what, like, I should release like, some recordings of customer interviews as like, examples or whatever, you know, and then you peel that off into a different product and you sell that, and slowly you build up this machine, basically. Also the guy to talk to would be Keith Perhac, who's in our group, too. Michele Hansen  33:51Oh, yeah, I should totally talk to Keith.  Colleen Schnettler  33:53Did he write a book? Sean Fioritto  33:55Yeah, he did but also his, his job before running SegMetrics was with the internet famous person that you guys know of that ran these huge content marketing programs and had this whole product funnel thing and all this stuff that I was talking about. So Keith is like, expert on that topic. Michele Hansen  34:15I guess I don't know if I want to go that direction just now because I do, you know, I do have a job. Um, so I'm, yeah.  Sean Fioritto  34:28You could just be like Amy.  Michele Hansen  34:33So, I, yeah, so I guess I have to think about that, and thinking about like, like, where to price it and those bundles and whatnot. Actually, I have another super like, mechanical question. So, between the time you announced the pre-order, and when you, like, people could actually like, to like, first of all, like, what was the incentive for somebody to pre-order? And then, what was the time from like, when you announced the pre-order to when you like, people could actually get it? Like, how far in advance do you do a pre-order? And what do you like, do you have to give people something? Sean Fioritto  35:10Yeah, I can't, I actually can't remember. I can't remember, what did I do? I did a pre-order. I can't even remember if I gave him the book or not. I don't think you have to. Some people just buy it ready to go. I think I, I probably did give ‘em like, here's everything I got so far, and it's gonna change, but, you know, here's that. Here's what I've got. And, you know, whatever version, like, people don't care if it's like, not even formatted or, you know, give me everything you got. Because the people that are going to do that are ready to just devour it. And then also, some of them might be like, I'm not wanting to, I don't want it right now, but I had a discount, right? So there's like, the pre-order, it's like a little bit cheaper to buy it now. Because I knew I was going to be selling it at like, as, like, a $40 product. So the discount, I think I sold it initially for pre-orders for like, 29 bucks, or maybe less even. Yeah, maybe like 20 bucks or something like that. Michele Hansen  36:08Okay, and it's 30 now. Colleen Schnettler  36:11Yeah, it probably makes sense for you, as someone who, I'm using it and referencing it, even though it's not done, because those scripts, like you were saying, are so valuable to people.  Michele Hansen  36:20Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess I sort of like, feel like everybody already has everything. I mean, reality like, they, they don't because everything has been changed so much. But I guess I need to like, set it up, too. Like, I need to decide on a platform to use to actually sell it.  Sean Fioritto  36:42Oh, I didn't do that at first.  Michele Hansen  36:45Okay. So did you just use Stripe? Sean Fioritto  36:47I think I used PayPal. I was literally like, here's my email, send PayPal money there. And then I sent it to ‘em. Michele Hansen  36:55How did you deal with that and sales tax and stuff?  Sean Fioritto  36:57I don't think that existed. But also I would have just ignored it. Michele Hansen  37:03Okay, yeah, I guess I'm in the EU, so I kind of can't. Sean Fioritto  37:08It's the wild west out here. Michele Hansen  37:12'Murica. Sean Fioritto  37:15No, I had a really bad tax bill the first year because I ignored all of that stuff.  Michele Hansen  37:19Oh, okay, so you're not advising. This is not financial advice.  Sean Fioritto  37:26I'm just saying what I did. I'm not saying you should do that.  Michele Hansen  37:30This may or may not be good advice, what you are hearing, just so you know. All of this may be bad advice. Okay, so I basically, Sean Fioritto  37:39I got audited, too, actually. I forgot about that. So don't, yeah, definitely don't do that. Being audited is not as bad as it sounds, it turns out but that's, anyway, that's a different story. Michele Hansen  38:55I was, I feel like I should do a, like a talk hear, hear, and be like, well, on that massive disappointment, thank you and good evening. Um, so okay. So you know, I feel, see, I feel like I look at you and you're like, you, like, have your stuff together about selling a book. And the fact that you had all like, you had these fears about, like, getting rejected by it, and like, put all this into it, and you did it without having done it before. And, you know, made mistakes, looking back, that you are now helping me not replicate. Um, I feel, I feel a little, I feel a little better about this. And also, I guess I have a deadline now, which is five days from now to have the website functional. So, that's fun.  Colleen Schnettler  38:51You're welcome. I'm here for you, Michele. Just push you over the cliff. Michele Hansen  38:56Like, copy paste content into it, right? Um, I noticed actually that Sean, like, your site has a ton of testimonials, and that's something I have been sort of tepidly starting to collect. Like, I guess I'm a little bit afraid to, like, ask people for testimonials. But I've gotten a couple. Sean Fioritto  39:17So what you do is you write them the testimonial, then you email them and you say can I use this as your testimonial? And then they say yes, and then you put it on your page. Michele Hansen  39:25That's lower friction than what I've been asking for. Um, but, but that makes sense. Sean Fioritto  39:32I mean, I would also peel out, so they said something good in an email and I'd copy it and then change it so it sounded better, and then, can I use this as a testimonial?  Michele Hansen  39:39Yeah. Yeah.  Sean Fioritto  39:42I mean, when I say sounds better, I mean, just like copy edit, right? Michele Hansen  39:45I mean, I guess, like, we do that with Geocodio. And I think, like, Colleen and I have talked about this how, I guess I've like, gotten over all of these fears with Geocodio, and I'm so much more confident with it. And maybe it's because it doesn't have my name, like, directly on it, or it's just been around for like seven and a half years now. Versus this, I'm like, I'm so much more unsure. Like,  Sean Fioritto  40:07You haven't done this in a long time.  Michele Hansen  40:08I never have written a book. Sean Fioritto  40:12Well, whatever. Like, you haven't done a launch. Because you can launch anything. You could have launched Geocodio. Michele Hansen  40:18Yeah. Sean Fioritto  40:18You could've launched it this way, too. But you just haven't done that before. And it's weird, launch is weird because launch is like, everybody, pay attention to me now.  Michele Hansen  40:29Yeah, I'm just super uncomfortable with that.  Sean Fioritto  40:33Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's what it feels like. But then when I realized it was, if you're doing it, right, it's not that. It feels like it, but you're not actually making it about you. It's about them. And then for like, a couple days, you know, you gotta be like, here's the product, you can buy it, and you got to be like sending more emails than you normally. Lots of people will unsubscribe. But like I said, those people are not subscribing. Some of them probably hate you, but you know, most of them are probably just unsubscribing because like, they're, turns out, they weren't interested now that they actually see what it is. They're like, oh, no, that's not what I was thinking it was, or whatever. You get used to it, like, you definitely get used to it. I did it for a couple products. And over time, I just didn't care anymore. Like, I absolutely felt like I was doing a good for people. And I know that I was because I didn't get nearly as much. I think that some of my friends who were in that space would tell me that I needed to go harder, you know, like a little more salesy than I was. But anyway, the point is, Michele Hansen  41:39The thing is, like, I'm not like, I'm not averse to marketing, I think, I mean, this is something that like, we were actually talking about the other day, like people, like technical people being averse to like, sales and marketing and like, like, I have written the book with this in mind that like, hopefully, like, people will recommend it, like, like an audience of the book is like product leaders and marketing leaders who need to teach their teams how to do this. And so like, that's an audience I'm writing for because if they then they have like, buy the book for like five people, and then if they get a new job, or promotion, or whatever, in two years, and they need to teach the team like their new team how to do it again. Um, and so like, that is like, comfortable for me. But yeah, I guess as you were saying, like, hitting the sales hard is, is a little bit uncomfortable. And I guess I will just have to deal with a couple of days of like, that being awkward and like, doing the whole, like, you know, I don't know, like home shopping network style, like, and here's this book, and you can have it for the low, low price of $29. Plus, all of these bundles. Like, Sean Fioritto  42:43So, the thing that, okay, maybe this will help you, but they would help, it helped me, is I just focus on, on the, on the people that are, on your audience, and like your copy and everything is about them. It's about you. You're using, I know you're doing this, right, so you're gonna use the word you in your copy. Like, you never use the word I in your copy, right? So everything is about them. You've done all this research, you know, them, you know, you know, the problems they're facing, you know the pains they're having. And so you could just keep talking about that, talking about that. Launch, then, is then just like, more of those types of emails, like, a higher cadence than you're used to, which is still just about them. And then you're hitting them with like, okay, and now it's here. Like, you're, the whole time you're telling them it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then now it's here, here's what's in it, and you're gonna have these emails that just say, here's everything that's in it, and then here's questions that people might have, email that follows up, and then hey, this is gonna end in like a certain amount of time, follow up and then you got one hour left, you know, email. So you do these, you do this sequence of emails, but like, you have to remember when you're sending those that are the most uncomfortable that some people are really, really excited, and if you don't send them that stuff, they won't buy it and they'll, they'll regret it. Like, there's some people that genuinely are very excited and super thrilled to get those emails. Michele Hansen  44:03Can I run a, I have like, a tagline, or not like, a headline I have been throwing around in my head. Can I run it past you?  Sean Fioritto  44:12Yeah. For an article?  Michele Hansen  44:13No, for the book, but like, so like, this would be the like, main headline on the site. Sean Fioritto  44:18Yeah, yeah.  Michele Hansen  44:21Your time is too valuable to spend it building things people don't want.  Sean Fioritto  44:27Perfect. I mean, it's a little wordy, but yeah, like, the concept is perfect. Michele Hansen  44:32I will work on the wordiness. Sean Fioritto  44:36I mean, it's really, it's good, though. That's perfect.  Michele Hansen  44:38It's good. I guess it's good enough, right? It's good enough for me to slap a site together in the next, checks watch, five days, and, and get that going. Sean Fioritto  44:50Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, you could roll with that as an H2 on a landing page. Easy. Yeah. That would be fine the way it is. Michele Hansen  44:57Cool. Second image of the book. All right. There's all this stuff I'll have to do, but I guess I'll just be working away at this. Sean Fioritto  45:04You know what would be fun for you? I have an archived version of like, my old initial website, if you go to, oh, it doesn't work anymore. Michele Hansen  45:15Can I look it up on Internet Archive? Or it's like, Sean Fioritto  45:19Probably you can, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. I used to have it just up so that I could, you could go to the URL. But yeah, so you'd have to go through the Internet Archive. But I had, and I did a, I did a write up on the landing page tear down and discussed screenshots from the, from the old version. It was truly, truly awful. But I sold $7,000 worth of book through it. So, Michele Hansen  45:40Can I ask you how much you sold overall? Do you reveal that? Sean Fioritto  45:44Yeah, yeah, of course. So it's actually hard to know because the, well, because as I've revealed I'm not fantastic about keeping track of my finances, or I wasn't then, but the, the book, through its lifespan, has made about $150,000.  Michele Hansen  46:06Whoa.  Sean Fioritto  46:07And most of that was the first two years because I was really, really actively pushing it. And then it just sort of, like, continued to make sales in dribs and drabs, and now it makes, probably, I don't know, I think I sold $1,000 worth of it last year, which makes sense, because it's pretty out of date at this point. Michele Hansen  46:28That'd be interesting to know why people are still buying it. Sean Fioritto  46:32Well, because the concept of designing in a browser is still something that people, you know, talk about from time to time. Should designers write code, or should they be using Figma, or at the time, you know, Sketch or Photoshop, I think all my copy is about Photoshop. So, you know, so like, I think that that concept is still valid. My copy is a little dated, the, the tech inside the book is a little, little dated at this point, though, still useful. So yeah, I think that is just the, so that was one of the things that I learned for content marketing was the, so if you want something to be really like, a really big hit, and to sort of like, make the rounds on the internet, you know, just those articles, it's sometimes just like, everybody's reading. The key to those is there has to be, well, there's like three rules. But like, one of the rules is, it has to be something everybody's talking about right now. And so at the time, everyone was talking about should we design in the browser? That was a big point of conversation. I would say now, like a similar level of conversation would be people talking about how much they hate single page apps, like in the Ruby on Rails community and trying to like, get off of that, right. So like, if you wrote a book about building single page app equivalents in Hotwire or something like that, that would probably resonate really, really well with that community right now. And you'd get a lot of free buzz when it's, people are already talking about it. So that's the problem. I think that that's why, like, hardly anybody's buying it now. But still, people are talking about that. So you get like, a little bit. And then also, I have all these marketing automated things that are still running. So like, I have some content that I accidentally wrote that has a lot of Google traffic, right? Like, I didn't accidentally write it, but I accidentally, like, did some search engine optimization on it. And so I get quite a bit of traffic from those pages, and then they end up signing up for, like, my tutorial things. And then they're in my little email automation thing that I set up, and eventually they get a pitch and then they, and then they buy. So there's some trickle down of that. Michele Hansen  48:50That makes sense. So, I guess, and this will be my last question. Um, is there anything else I should know about selling a book? Sean Fioritto  49:02Yeah, you don't have to do any of the things that I said, like. Like, well I think, I think you're already like doing all the right things. I was pushing really hard to make it my business. And so that, and frankly, once it got to the point where it was my business, that was a distraction for me. It made it hard, harder for me to stay relaxed and focused on doing the things that were the best for my customers, like, once money became this, like concern. So to me, you have this advantage of like, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. Like, each one of the things that I did, like it feels like you should bone up a little bit on how to do a launch, though that's not too difficult. You don't have to do like, the greatest job ever, and you maybe even already know how to do that to some extent. But other than that, I don't know, like 200 people on the mailing list, probably enough already. And you'll get more as people are more and more interested. And, you know, do you have an email subscribe on any of your content at all that you've written? Michele Hansen  50:16So it's all in review, so I think it all has a subscribe link at the bottom.  Sean Fioritto  50:22Perfect. Michele Hansen  50:23I think I have one on Twitter, like, on my pinned tweet is a subscription to the newsletter. Sean Fioritto  50:30Yeah, yeah. Cuz like, by the time I was doing it full time, I mean, the number of, I was doing so many other things that we didn't even talk about, for marketing, which it's like, we don't, we don't even need to go there. Because you don't, you don't need to do any of that stuff. I think you're doing everything right. And I would think carefully about, like, what your goals are with the book, and, for both you, you and for your customers, and then kind of size it right size it accordingly. And don't feel guilty about not doing all the right marketing things, because the right marketing things, just as long as you're focused on your audience and the people that are going to be reading your book, you're doing the right thing. Michele Hansen  51:13Hmm. Well, thank you for that, like, boost of encouragement.  Sean Fioritto  51:19You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  51:21I guess to wrap up, we should mention, by the way, that you have your own show. And you're actually getting something off the ground right now. Do you want to talk about that for a second? Sean Fioritto  51:34Yeah. So my friend Aaron Francis and I, we have a company called Hammerstone, that's at Hammerstone.dev. Our podcast is, is linked to there on the home page. We have, like you guys, it's kind of like a ride along podcast, and we just do our weekly check in we record it as a, as a podcast. And what we're working on is a drop in component for Laravel. The component allows you, allows your users to build, dynamically build queries, which they can, you could then use to display reports, etc. to them. Yeah, so that's, that's our new thing that we're working on. That's a new thing for me. I should probably have a whole other podcast and invite you on, ask you about how I should be marketing my software business. Michele Hansen  52:30So by the way, so, the podcast is really good. We finished it on a road trip a couple of months ago, and you should totally start at the beginning because, like so, so yes, like, the software part is interesting. But there's this whole other element that Aaron's wife is pregnant with multiples. And the podcast started in like, December, right?  Sean Fioritto  52:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  52:53So, and she was due in April. And so there's this like, whole, like, tension of it of like, oh, my god, like, are they gonna get to launch stuff before, like, Aaron goes from being not a parent to the parent of multiple children overnight? Like, is it like, is it gonna happen? And I found myself as I was listening, I was like, oh, my god, like, like, it really added this element of suspense that I have not felt while listening to another podcast, and it made it very enjoyable. Sean Fioritto  53:24You know what's frustrating. I just realized your audience actually overlaps with the audience of my product. And I just did a horrible job of pitching it. I was like, I could just sort of half-ass explain it here. But, Michele Hansen  53:34All you Laravel people, like, just check it out.  Sean Fioritto  53:37Yeah, that's good.  Michele Hansen  53:40Just take my word for it. This has been really fun, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on.  Sean Fioritto  53:50You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  53:51I really appreciate all of your advice. And I, I don't know what you call the, the anti-advice. You know, don't ignore taxes. And encouragement and perspective, that really means a lot to me.  Sean Fioritto  54:08You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.  Michele Hansen  54:11This is awesome. So if you guys liked this episode, please leave us a review on iTunes. Or let us know that you listened on Twitter, and we'll talk to you next week.

Disciple Up # 211 What Is a Disciple? By Louie Marsh, 5-19-2021 Intro.: The Hebrew View of Discipleship: Jesus began his first year of ministry by doing several things at once. He was traveling, teaching, performing what the Apostle John called “signs,” which are better known as miracles, and in the midst of all that he was recruiting an inner circle to follow him.   This recruitment was not unusual nor did it make Jesus stand out from other Rabbis. In fact it was something that almost all of them did and continued to do long past the first century A.D.   The Hebrew term for what it means to be a disciple is shimush chachamim. In context of the time, this means a “servant of the rabbis.” Serving is essentially the first stage of discipleship. You serve your rabbi as you learn how to follow the Word of God like he does. The object of discipleship is to follow, emulate, copy, duplicate, and replicate your rabbi, all while serving him.   According to the Babylonian Talmud, a disciple would carry the rabbi's baggage, prepare his food to his liking, and provide him with money for his needs. A disciple could not contradict his rabbi in public or rule against his rabbi in matters of the Torah. A disciple was obligated to protect his rabbi. As you can see from this Jesus gave his disciples extraordinary latitude in allowing them to debate with him. Here's two examples:   “27Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?” 28So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, 29“Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” 30They went out of the town and were coming to him. 31Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?”” (John 4:27–33, ESV)   “32But they did not understand the saying, and were afraid to ask him.” (Mark 9:32, ESV)   We have a fascinating text that demonstrates what it means to be a disciple: “But Jehoshaphat said, ‘Is there no prophet of the LORD here, that we may inquire of the LORD by him?' So one of the servants of the king of Israel answered and said, ‘Elisha the son of Shaphat is here, who poured water on the hands of Elijah' (2 Kings. 3:11 NKJV). The prophet Elisha's greatness is demonstrated by describing him as a disciple of Elijah the prophet. And the greatness of his discipleship is that he had the privilege to help Elijah wash his hands.   In turn, the duties of the rabbi are first of all to teach Torah. He would train his disciples to emulate him and even surpass himself in knowledge and practice of the Torah. The rabbi was obligated to protect his disciples from heresy and from sin. For this reason, the rabbi has the privilege to reprimand his disciples and judge their action.   These instructions are taken very seriously by the Jewish community from the first century A.D. and in some circles even up to this very day.   For Jews the issue of disciples is one of the most important issues for the preservation of Judaism and of the Jews themselves. Discipleship creates a chain and a continuum that insures that the next generations will continue to be related to and influenced by the Torah that God gave Israel at Mount Sinai. Without disciples of Moses and then Joshua and then the prophets, there would be no Judaism today.   DISCIPLE – Greek Word and usage   (1) Usually a substantive (μαθητής, mathētés, "a learner," from manthánō, "to learn";   Latin discipulus, "a scholar"):   The word is found in the Bible only in the Gospels and Acts. But it is good Greek, in use from Herodotus down, and always means the pupil of someone, in contrast to the master or teacher   In all cases it implies that the person not only accepts the views of the teacher, but that he is also in practice an adherent. A disciple is a “follower,” someone who adheres completely to the teachings of another, making them his rule of life and conduct.   The word has several applications. In the widest sense it refers to those who accept the teachings of anyone, not only in belief but in life. Thus the disciples of John the Baptist (Matthew 9:14; Luke 7:18; John 3:25); also of the Pharisees (Matthew 22:16; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33); of Moses (John 9:28).   But its most common use is to designate the adherents of Jesus. (a) In the widest sense (Matthew 10:42; Luke 6:17; John 6:66, and often). It is the only name for Christ's followers in the Gospels. But (b) especially the Twelve Apostles, even when they are called simply the disciples (Matthew 10:1; Matthew 11:1; Matthew 12:1, et al.).   In the Acts, after the death and ascension of Jesus, disciples are those who confess Him as the Messiah, Christians (Acts 6:1-2, 7; Acts 9:36 (feminine, mathétria); Acts 11:26, "The disciples were called Christians"). Even half-instructed believers who had been baptized only with the baptism of John are disciples (Acts 19:1-4).   Early Christians referred to the faith as “The Way.” This is found often in the book of Acts, here's a few examples:   “2and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” (Acts 9:2, ESV) “23About that time there arose no little disturbance concerning the Way.” (Acts 19:23, ESV) “14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,” (Acts 24:14, ESV) “22But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge of the Way, put them off, saying, “When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your case.”” (Acts 24:22, ESV) This term appeared to die out in favor of a new term that was given to the church as opposed to the one they apparently chose for themselves.  And that is the word Christian.   Jesus used the term disciple but never Christian. The first instance of the word Christian is found in the book of Acts: “The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (Acts 11:26). Most Bible scholars agree that it is unlikely that the believers themselves thought up the name “Christians.” The early church had other names for themselves, such as “disciples” (Acts 13:52; 20:1; 21:4) and “saints” (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1; Ephesians 1:1) and “brothers” (1 Corinthians 1:9; 1 Peter 3:8). The name “Christian,” meaning “belonging to Christ,” appears to have been invented by those outside of the church. It was most likely meant as a derogatory term. Only two other times does the word appear in the New Testament (Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). The idea that the term Christian was originally a pejorative finds some support in 1 Peter 4:16: “However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.”

Communion is about us, as a body of believers, coming equally together to remember how Jesus sets us free from our sins. 17Now in giving this next instruction I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. 19For there also have to be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20Therefore when you come together it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for when you eat, each one takes his own supper first; and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What am I to say to you? Shall I praise you? In this, I do not praise you. 23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”25In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a person must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For the one who eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the body. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number are asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. 33So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, have him eat at home so that you do not come together for judgment. As to the remaining matters, I will give instructions when I come. - 1 Corinthians 11:17-34

John 4:145 (ESV) Jesus and the Woman of Samaria 4Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. 4And he had to pass through Samaria. 5So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacobs well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour. 7A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, Give me a drink. 8(For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9The Samaritan woman said to him, How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10Jesus answered her, If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, Give me a drink, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. 11The woman said to him, Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock. 13Jesus said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. 15The woman said to him, Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water. 16Jesus said to her, Go, call your husband, and come here. 17The woman answered him, I have no husband. Jesus said to her, You are right in saying, I have no husband; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true. 19The woman said to him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship. 21Jesus said to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. 25The woman said to him, I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus said to her, I who speak to you am he. 27Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, What do you seek? or, Why are you talking with her? 28So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, 29Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ? 30They went out of the town and were coming to him. 31Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, Rabbi, eat. 32But he said to them, I have food to eat that you do not know about. 33So the disciples said to one another, Has anyone brought him something to eat? 34Jesus said to them, My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. 35Do you not say, There are yet four months, then comes the harvest? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest.36Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37For here the saying holds true, One sows and another reaps. 38I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor. 39Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the womans testimony, He told me all that I ever did. 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41And many more believed because of his word. 42They said to the woman, It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world. 43After the two days he departed for Galilee. 44(For Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honor in his own hometown.) 45So when he came to Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him, having seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the feast. For they too had gone to the feast.

Be sure to catch the Conscious Spirit Fest October 18 2020 Arizona Bell is the co-founder and CEO of Spirit Guides Media—a growing media network that's dedicated to truth and driven by Spirit—and the host of the podcast A Matter of Life and Death with Arizona Bell. A grief coach and afterlife expert, Arizona is an inspirational speaker with the message that examining death and what happens to us after death is the absolute best way to live our richest, most meaningful lives here on Earth. A rising voice in the spiritual community, she appeared as a panelist on George Noory’s afterlife expert panel at the Afterlife Research and Education Institute Symposium in 2018 and speaks regularly at various conferences and events. Arizona’s book “Soul Magic: Ancient Wisdom for Modern Mystics” is available now. Arizona stopped by on Spiritual Dope as we covered all types of things: What exactly is it about examing death that can inspire you to live your best life? How do you transition from writing for medical journals to spirituality? Different ways to pray & what exactly is OG meditation? Make sure you check out everything Arizona has going on! Catch up with Arizona on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDblWL1H2IZ/ https://www.instagram.com/p/B-rjRW5oCOi/ brandon handley00:014321 Hey there, Spiritual Dope. This is Brandon Handley on with another outstanding guest Arizona bell, and she is the co founder and CEO of Spirit Guides Media 00:15A growing media network that's dedicated to truth and driven by spirit and the host of the podcast, a matter of life and death with Arizona bell 00:23A grief coach and afterlife expert Arizona is an inspirational speaker with the message that examine that. And what happened was, after death is the absolute best way to live our richest, most meaningful lives here on her. 00:35Arising voice in a spiritual community, she appeared as a panelist on great George Norris afterlife expert panel at the afterlife. Research Institute education Institute's symposium in 2018 00:47And speaks regularly at various conferences and events Arizona's book sold magic ancient wisdom from the modern mystics is available now or is. Oh, thank you so much for popping out today, how are you Spirit Guides00:59Hey, thanks for having me. Brandon, I'm doing really well, actually, uh, you know, you never know in 2020 with ups and downs of of everything. But today I'm doing great. I'm feeling good. How about you. brandon handley01:09I love it. Right, like 2020 if ever there was a a year where you seize the day right you take it for all that you can get out of it because you don't know what's around the corner right Spirit Guides01:20And absolutely, if you're not. If not now, when right brandon handley01:26I love 2024 for what is actually kind of brought brought to us right arm. I think there's opportunity to 01:32Do what you and I are doing on really kind of dig deep and live our authentic lives because you don't know what's around the corner. Really presented itself in 2020 that's my honest opinion. Spirit Guides01:43Absolutely. And just, I'll just riff here for a minute, in my personal life. That's how it worked out. 01:48You know i i hit rock bottom and hit a period of grief in my life. And next thing you know, I'm like, Okay. Life's too short. And it really put the fire under my butt. And I got to step in and live in my purpose. And I think on a collective level that's what's happening with 2020 brandon handley02:03Is what it looks like right a lot. There's a lot of raw files on 02:06A lot bombs and and not to laugh, but it's again just giving us the opportunity to bounce back. And so our spiritual resilience and what that but that kind of shine. 02:15But they kind of shy so I like to start these off with, like, you know, the idea is that the creator speaks through us right and 02:25Universe energies, energy, whatever speaking through us today and it's delivering a message to one of our listeners that can only come through this instance right so what is that message that you would deliver to that person today. Spirit Guides02:40This is man, this is interesting because right before this, I got on. And I do this typically 02:45Every once in a while. I forget, but it's kind of my routine to get to 02:48Get into meditated mode. Before I go on, either my podcast or somebody else's and say, 02:54Let's let the message come through that needs to be heard the most that helps the most amount of people 02:59You know, it's interesting. I've never been asked to to pick what that message is. So you put me on the spot, but um you know i i think that maybe the messages. What you kind of 03:12You said spiritual resilience. I think that that's the message of this year. And that's the message, maybe of this podcast, because that's where we started going right away. And I think just 03:24The fact of the idea that human hearts are so resilient were built in Phoenix's were born to burn and we're born to rise. And I think that it's really 03:33Really important to remember that right now, when everything is burning down metaphorically or literally, you know. So I think it's really important that we remember how resilient. We actually are. brandon handley03:46Built in Phoenix is built on Phoenix's and Spirit Guides03:49I don't know where that came from. That was 03:52That was like our archangel brandon handley03:54Was it right that's it 100% you open yourself up to it and just allowed to kind of kind of come through. 04:02And that's exactly what it is. So, whoever's out there. Just know that you have this built in Phoenix, whatever is kind of sparking you right now. You can kind of fan that and rise up out of the ashes into something more boys than you ever were before. Right. 04:18Totally. Um, so let's let them give some background, right, who is Arizona bell 04:26Yeah, are you 04:27Doing here. Um, you know, give us the lowdown Spirit Guides04:30That's literally what I've been asking myself all year. Who am I, why am I here. No, you know, I 04:37I would have said, you know, for most of my life. Arizona bell is a writer, like, that was my identity that's that's who I showed up as and then a little, little bit over five years ago, about five and a half years ago. 04:50My mother passed away. She was my best friend. 04:53She was 59 when she passed away. I was 30 so that's pretty young, relatively speaking for both of us. And we were very, very close in it. It ripped my world apart. And that was my burned down moment and 05:05And eventually became my Phoenix moment, and it gave me, like I said, the fire under my butt to really step into my full 05:14Purpose and alignment, whereas before I was just sort of dabbling, you know, I was like dabbling one foot into my spiritual purpose and the other into really messing around, and not really committing to anything and 05:27You know, just that kind of stuff. And so, you know, after my mom passed. I did the grieving thing for her, you know, I'm still doing the grieving thing, but I did that pretty hardcore. And then I woke up one day and I said okay like 05:39I'm going to do this, I'm going to do what Spirit wants me to do. So I basically surrendered to that to spirit to source to God to divine energy, whatever you want to call it. I said, All right, listen. 05:52I get that I'm here for a reason. Show me what that reason is. Bring it to me every day and I'll do it. So you know I stepped into service mode. Basically, which I wasn't able to do before I hit rock bottom. And with that. 06:05Came the starting of my company, which originally. Like I said, my background. 06:09Background was in writing. So I started a little digital magazine called spirit guides magazine, because I 06:15I was young, relatively young in the spiritual world and I saw that there was a huge void of spirituality being targeted to younger generations and therefore there's a huge disconnect because 06:26People my age millennials and younger weren't really connecting with 06:31The kinds of websites and graphics and conferences and kind of that that were sort of felt a little bit outdated, but we were hungering for spiritual knowledge so that was kind of the reason I started it. 06:42And that little Instagram magazine has now evolved to a media company we're called spirit guides media and within it. We have podcasts. We're starting a radio station books. 06:54Everything courses and thrown a festival with my good friend from conscious living PR Mona. So we just got everything going on. So that's kind of a hope I answered the question. I don't, I don't know how to fully say who I am or why I'm here. But that's a star, I guess. brandon handley07:09Sure how that that it's a lot for us to work with. Right. So, that is how you and I connected we connected through Mona, Lauren, who was one of the first guest on this podcast. 07:20And you know so super glad that we were able to get connected through her 07:25Checked out spirit. Guys, you've got a lot going on there. Looks like it's kind of a community right of built up around spirituality and. Is that what the intention is just kind of a community for, like, you know, will say for a younger generation. Is that what you're saying. Spirit Guides07:43You know, absolutely. The intention was to build a spiritual community. And even though we are gearing towards gearing it more towards 07:52Visually towards younger people. I mean, spirituality is for everybody. So I have people across the board, you know, but we did. We did kind of dominate that you know 08:0318 to 34 demographic. I mean, that's, that is what our demographic is. And of course there's outliers and the young at heart, and all that. But we did want to make it fresh and hip, you know, and that that was an intention and definitely 08:17The spiritual community aspect of because for me. My personal story is, I was the lone wolf on the spiritual path. I didn't have, you know, I wasn't raised religious I didn't have a spiritual community, as in the spiritual closet, to be frank, so 08:30I did this year I did the spirituality thing by myself. And so I really did want to create a community. 08:37For those that might be feeling the same way. And luckily, with the world that we're living in with technology. It's easier to do that, you know, like we're doing this on zoom right now and and so I'm able to hold courses and 08:49workshops and the festival, even now online and as membership community, so it's it's all able to be done online and it's it's absolutely to have a spiritual community in such a weird time brandon handley09:03And there's no no better time for us so funny you mentioned your demographics, because you're pulling off is right where I started on my demographics. Right. 09:12Right on. And that's and that's simply because I speak to my generation, right. So you're speaking to your generation, you know the language you know on the spiritual connection. 09:21From that perspective. Right. And that's not to say, like you said, there's gonna be there's gonna be people. There's going to be the outliers that you attract but like you're able really well able to speak to that specific group. Spirit Guides09:33Right but but it ends there because I don't do Tick tock. So I don't know. 09:37I don't know how much younger. I can get that brandon handley09:40Tick tock. Tick tock. Some is Spirit Guides09:43For sure. brandon handley09:44Somebody platforms right I'm and I'm doing I'm doing what I do. 09:49Exactly. 09:50So, so I get it, I get it. 09:53When you know I want to give also this kind of premise of what you were into before you got into the spiritual realm, who and what type of content. Were you writing before you got in the conscious 10:08Conscious right Spirit Guides10:09Sure. You know, I think, well, I was doing a couple things. There was what I was doing for work. I was very fortunate to get paid to be a writer. I know a lot of people in the writing world. 10:21seek that out. And what that I was writing for what pays. I was writing for medical journals and medical magazines and medical medical medical I was writing for universities, things like that. 10:34But the big bucks were in the medical field. I was the editorial director at a magazine for physicians and an assistant assistant editor at a magazine an international magazine for doctors and dentists so 10:49And, you know, with my mom passing away, she had cancer. So I was all up in the medical industry going through it with her and I just found myself writing things that I didn't agree with. And so, it hit me. 11:01For a while, I mean, I don't want to get to the specifics, but 11:06Yeah, just 11:09Just the sick, I would call the sickness industry of the of the medical industry and just a lot of things that there were ignoring about actually keeping people healthy and I had to start to believe that maybe there was a an ulterior motive to keep people sick. 11:26So I and I was publishing stuff like that, you know, and that's all up for a matter of opinion, but from what I saw firsthand. 11:35In the medical world with my mom and the unfairness. I will call it of that world I it wasn't jiving for me on a soul level to be writing those things anymore. So there was a there was a pick on my soul that was like, ding, ding, ding, like, hey, you can't 11:49This doesn't feel right and you care about integrity. Don't forget that you care about integrity. Now, on, on the flip side, in my own personal selves. I was always drawn towards I guess soul centered content. 12:03I called it love I called it like I was thinking more romantic love than spiritual, but I, I was always wanting to write about love and like 12:11That kind of stuff. And like relationships and things like that, but um I so I was doing that on the side as well. I was writing for literary magazines and things like that. brandon handley12:21That's fun. That's fun. But I'll tell you what I can. I know what you're talking about with that little prick in the soul resonates with me real hard. I was in the insurance industry. 12:32For a little bit. Right. And I was like, well, you know, you would you do demographics and you would do. 12:40Do a risk assessment on the group as a whole. Right. And there's a sick person or two in there. 12:45You're rich got jacked up with this doesn't make much sense you know these people need the insurance. We're going to raise the rates on them because they need it because they are sick because they are going to use it. 12:53Or industry codes right same thing happens with industry codes. If they're in of, you know, riskier business type 13:00Their insurance rates are going to go up because they've got the they're going to get the most well this person's gone in here. So we're gonna have to race, the race to cover that. So, um, I left, I left. 13:10For very same thing. I was like, for a couple reasons. Actually, one was because of that soul prick right to was because and nothing wrong with people getting off on work every day you know into an office, but I couldn't stand it. I was in my 20s and watching people that were zombies. 13:27Right. What are these these these a tweet covered offices, you know, walk right. I was like, I was like, if this is gonna be my toys. Spirit Guides13:35Yep. Oh, I completely relate to that. Yeah. I mean, look at me, I'm like, 13:40There's no way I can sit in an office. I mean, 13:42I gave it my go you know I gave it my best go but somehow every job i got i ended up 13:48And again, I told you this before. My mom was German. So I was raised with good work ethic. I know how to work hard and so I'd like work hard, prove myself, and then I'd be like, Listen, I gotta start working from home like this isn't working for me. 13:59You know, and somehow I always talk them into it. I guess that's a skill I have but 14:04But yeah, I wasn't meant for that either. I totally hear what you're saying and you know that that unfairness. As I said in that you as you just so eloquently described in the insurance industry. It goes, it goes in every, you know, it's like in the banking industry like brandon handley14:17Somebody who Spirit Guides14:17More like living paycheck to paycheck has to pay the fee to like have a bank account and then you know somebody who has loads of money doesn't have to pay a fee doesn't make sense that brandon handley14:28You know, you know it does. In the end, right, like, but you know we're not going to get into it. Right. 14:34But it's like, Come on, man. Um, so, so you're writing for like medical journals and all this other stuff. You have this kind of bent 14:45You go through this and they jump into the spirituality, his face. I want to want to share with kind of 14:51Peoples. And what was it like for you to begin to lead with spirituality. After what you've been doing your entire life and the Jeff overcoming fears deal with anybody was like, What are you thinking that type of thing. Spirit Guides15:05Oh, big time. Yeah. As far as overcoming fears. So I'll just say a couple things I had the idea for spirit guides 15:14In my head tagline AND EVERYTHING FOR YEARS. YEARS. YEARS. YEARS BEFORE. My mom passed away years I knew I wanted to do it and not even that I wanted to. It was like it was just implanted in my mind my spirits like you're gonna you're going to need to do this. 15:28And I started to get worried when the because i'm a i'm an idea person. So I get lots of ideas. I was starting to get worried when the idea didn't go away because 15:35It doesn't go away. Dang, it's meant for you, you know, brandon handley15:38So, Spirit Guides15:39But I was too scared I was making pretty good money to be creative, you know, who am I to do this. And also, like I mentioned, I'm in the spiritual closet. Okay, I'm a party girl. 15:50On one on one hand, and then I'm a spiritual girl when I go home like it. I did not have spiritual friends. You know what I'm saying. 15:58So there's a lot of fears to overcome. But again, when I got that asked my ass kicked by grief and loss and seeing death firsthand. It was like, all right, you got to live your life and you got to do this. So I basically like 16:13I just kind of like came out of the closet and like didn't like I didn't even make a thing of it like I just was like one day I owned a spiritual media company. 16:22And, you know, some people were like, what are you getting up to these days, you know, but it was it was a leap that I took private privately and probably shocked. Some people when I did it, but I didn't want to go around having to explain myself to a bunch of people so brandon handley16:37That makes a lot of sense. Um, and you're a lot of different types of coaching business Christians question spiritual around to like you know don't have to go share your ideas with others. I'm just go do it right again. Good. 16:51And that was Spirit Guides16:51That was what I chose to do in that moment, because it honestly it made the most sense. brandon handley16:56Of it and then so 16:59You start, you know, I don't know how somebody just goes to earning a 17:04media company, right. So what was that process like did you have to get investors or she is fired off like 17:10On to the Instagram bit or did you find some people to back you, that type of thing. Spirit Guides17:15Now it was completely driven by spirit. And again, I was in surrender mode by that point. So I was like, 17:22I had an arrangement with spirit is like if you want me to do it. You got to bring it to me because I'm not going to go around. 17:28Chasing after all this stuff. So I'm very fortunate that my brother and business partner is a tech developer. So I had that 17:37And I basically called up one of my friends who was a another co founder who became another co founder with us, who I knew was into spirituality and could handle you know some of the things like social media all this stuff. And we just got together as a trio and and literally it was 17:54You know, like guerrilla style startup and 17:58And now the third party left, and it's just me and my brother and we're still we're still running it in that way. And I like that way. I mean, I wish I could sit here and tell you that I had some 18:08Big plan, you know, I, my German mom would have wanted me to have a better laid out plan. But I went with it. You know, I just, we just started on Instagram and started hyping it up because that's where all the kids were and we were trying to, you know, 18:24That's where the kids Billy says where they used to hang out with. So that's where we were talking to, at that time, and 18:30We started to get a following. And then we just launched and and honestly all all I had in mind was to launch a digital magazine. 18:39And because I was a writer. That's all I wanted. You know, and I eventually wanted to write books and stuff. But from that is like all this stuff because I made that arrangement with spirit. 18:48Now I'm like podcast Aston radio station and festival. All these things were like, not my ideas are now they've overrun the thing. So now it's like it's got a mind of its own. brandon handley19:00Reminds me of the Michael singer. Yeah, sort of experiment right um 19:07So talk about what is surrender. Spirit Guides19:11What is surrender mode. Well, I think there's two kinds of surrender mode. There's a surrender mode where we think we're surrendering 19:19Where we say we're surrendering which was me a lot. I mean, I was 19:23I've always been drawn towards spiritual and esoteric stuff so I knew I was writing before my mom that I was writing you know happiness is surrender. That's where you find happiness, but I wasn't doing it. 19:34I wasn't doing it fully. And I only realized that when I did it fully in that was when I had to when I had to fall to my knees. 19:43Because there was nothing else there and, you know, Marianne Williamson, I'm probably going to butcher the, quote, but she says something along the lines of 19:51There's a certain desperation that's required before you're ready to face God and something like that. And that's how I felt. And so to me, that is surrender mode where it's 20:02I am here to serve. 20:05Your like basically I'm using my free will to serve your will spirit. 20:12So it's 20:13To me, that's true. Surrender mode, not just like, Oh, it's okay. Let it go. That bad thing, you know, but actually surrendering to a will, that's greater than your own that's greater than your own ego as well and showing up for it every day reliably brandon handley20:29How do you show up for every day, right, like so. I get it. I love this. I love that. I love the idea of 20:36You know surrender. And it's really kind of how we started the podcast right now less fear talk through you to the listener. Right. And then that Phoenix between now and then there's a. It's kind of like the let go and let God right 20:50Right. brandon handley20:51But to actually, you know, to say it's one thing Spirit Guides20:54How to do it. brandon handley20:55How to do it without freaking out, man. Right, without freaking out because Spirit Guides21:00I never said I didn't freak out. brandon handley21:03I love it. So, um, Spirit Guides21:04But I will say this, I will say this. I mean I I wake up every morning and I meditate and I pray, basically I do that combo and and part of my prayer in my meditation is to say 21:19You know, use me how you want to use me today. 21:22And so that's a way for me that's like a action point for me every morning to state my intention which matters a lot that I'm here to be used for spirits will basically. And so whatever shows up for me that day. 21:38I'm going to do it. brandon handley21:40Yeah assessments. Nice. Right. Um, and then the other part two is 21:50Just the idea that these things keep opening up for you. And I mentioned kind of the surrender experiment from 21:56Michael singer. And the reason I mention it because once you kind of open yourself up to it to be used to be used in service through this universal power. 22:05And I love how you said you know I'm not going for it. It's going to have to come to me right 22:11You said you know what you want. This is what I want. But you know what, I surrender for you to show me the way type of thing, you know, talk a little bit about that because I think that that's 22:21That's very important. Right. I'm a big fan of the idea is like its first of all, most people won't like you said, you know what you want it right you know what you want to do you want to be a writer. 22:31You wanted to start this media company and dig into it, but you didn't know how, but now you got it. Is it fair to say Spirit Guides22:39Yeah, definitely. brandon handley22:40And so this is the point that I'm trying to drive home is that you don't have to know how, but you do have to make the decision that that's what you want a life and that's what I feel like you've done Spirit Guides22:51Right. But I agree with you. You don't have to know how I am living proof of that. You do have to know what what I will say is that asked 23:00For what, when I sit in prayer and meditation every day. I mean, I feel like that's a crucial point 23:07Because we're 23:09I had to. I had to. I didn't know that I always wanted to be a writer because I have that God given skill. 23:16You know, so that's a, that's a natural way for me to go but 23:22I didn't know. I didn't even know what necessarily either. I had to listen in meditation, like I didn't know that I was going to start a media company. 23:30Or a you know that I was gonna, I didn't even know was going to do a podcast. I didn't know the podcast was going to turn into a an internet radio station. I've got those downloads and meditation and prayer. You know what I'm saying. 23:42So, but, and I will, I will circle back to the one thing that I did know is I knew I wanted to be a writer, and I knew that starting this digital magazine basically 23:53would grant, grant me a following. And I knew that in the publishing world today because I had been told this by writers by published writers that you have to have a following to even get looked at basically 24:04Well, and the magic numbers like 10,000, you know. So what we hit 10,000 and then it just kept expanding and expanding and expanding and I was so damn busy. Next thing you know, we're at 50,000 followers and I'm saying to spirit, listen. 24:20I still haven't written the book actually haven't even written 24:23So I'm not going to go around chasing a book deal if you want me to write a book you bring it to me. Now that sounds absurd. 24:29But three months later I had an email in my inbox, saying, hey, we have this book. It's already sold to this major publisher and we think you're great to write it, do you, what do you think brandon handley24:40So they have the concept of the book. 24:42Yeah works on a writer and they needed a writer. 24:45And you read it. Yeah. Spirit Guides24:47And that's the thing these days, they already sell the concept of books, but you know now that sets me up to write the book that I want to write to write the books that I really want to write, you know what I'm saying. So 24:56It's a pause for a second, though, because you know brandon handley25:00There's also the again. 25:04There's, there's the idea of, you know, feeling a little bit of a law of attraction space, making the demand was fear, right, or like the idea of you asking it is given and just let it come to you. 25:17Right right hand to me right if I'm coming from a law of attraction space. I'm like, Hey, I'm here, how to end up here. You're living example of this right and or of 25:28Trusting the universe is another right as like your benefactor, you're like hey universe. This is what I like. You can just go ahead and have that show up. I'm not going to go chasing it 25:40But then it shows up, and you're like, Well, what's next. Spirit Guides25:43Right. And that, that means that means it's for you because you you can go out there and say hey universe. This is what I want. 25:52I'm not going to chase it bring it to me and you're not, you might not get it. 25:57Because it's not meant for you. brandon handley25:58And that's great too. Right. Like I make the lines of, you know, if I would have had a lot of money. When I was younger, or like an open like have liked it. Like, I felt like I wanted, I probably would have died. 26:11Like, I mean, right, it would have been a bad. So the universe is like no 26:16No, no bad idea, right, you're not ready for that. Sorry. 26:20Yeah, and or we don't want you right now, right, you've got more things to do. And that's, that's another thing that I kind of look at this as like if you made it this far in your life and like you're 26:28Still kind of wandering around. I like you know for the for the person that is 26:33So meaningful life, you know, perhaps there is and you know you guys start figuring that out because there's no reason for you still be here. 26:40One 400 what a trillion to be born and make it through like not get hit by a car or a bus eaten all that crazy crappy thing that G and just in some of whatever we know what you're doing out there. Right. But you've lived 26:52And and and and so you've got a purpose and to live it. So one of the purposes that you found is by going through, you know, kind of hitting this rock bottom right, I want to just 27:03dive off dependency the grief coach and afterlife expert aspect of it because we haven't yet. Um, let's talk about how you ends up even there. Spirit Guides27:12Sure. I mean, it's kind of a wild story, um, 27:17Because I, I didn't want to end up there that wasn't I joke. I never thought in my life. I want to be a grief and afterlife expert. 27:26Can can promise you that. But, you know, after my mom passed away. And after I did the really hardcore grieving for for a while. 27:36I just, I think, you know, I had already started spirit guides and I was like, you know, 27:41Like, I want to go train to be a grief coach and it just kind of came to me and I was like, all right, I'll start looking into programs and I did and I found one. And I went and I liked it and i and i just got trained. You know, I just did it, but 27:55But, and I wasn't even 27:57I didn't even know what I was going to do with it. I just felt intuitively intuitively nudge there. So I did it. And then shortly very shortly after I had a medium ship reading 28:09And the medium. Then in the middle, in the middle of it. She's like, and she's a very, very, I had to wait a year to get a meeting with her. She's a very, very popular medium and 28:23In the middle of that she's like, What are you doing, I need to 28:27And she's like, I'm so I'm not gonna take up your time of your reading. But after this. I need to talk to you what you're doing. Like my spirit guides are telling me I need to talk to you. 28:34So we end up having a chat and she's like, Oh, I told her about spirit guides, like I've been trying to reach younger people, and she's like you and then a week later I got an email from her. And she said, I want to invite you to be to speak at this afterlife conference. 28:49And I was like, 28:51I'm not 28:54Know that, like, I'm not qualified to be here and she wrote back, I'll never forget it. And she's like, Arizona, my dear, I have been told that you are going to be a very profound afterlife researcher and you need to be at this event. And I was like, what 29:07So I went to this event to and I sat on a panel talking about spirituality, like in younger generations and my mind blew way open because I didn't know much about the afterlife, other than 29:21My mom had died. I hope she was still alive and I went to a medium to find out, you know, 29:26So I guess the, the, that's the long answer. The short answer is, like, Spirit just drove me there and And ever since that first conference, it was just so obvious that that's what I was going to be doing that I had a place in that world for whatever reason. brandon handley29:43So along with being a CEO media company you're also doing like this grief coach. Is that right, Spirit Guides29:51Yeah, you know, and you know, I hadn't dove into the coaching part as much as I wanted to. Originally, just because I have been so busy now with 30:03And and people grieving everything because grief, you know, grief, there's a misconception. That's grief, just for 30:11a loved one who's passed away grief is for any change dramatic change in your world, which we are collectively experiencing like all of the changes right now, so I am 30:24Drawing more back into that coaching aspect and I'm starting to get some things lined up in that way because I think it's so important and and I've been basically advised by all of my spiritual advisors that that's something that I need to get going on right now too, so brandon handley30:40I love it. Right. So just a little bit about what it means right to 30:45Examine death and use this kind of as a catalyst to live our riches, the most meaningful lives. Spirit Guides30:53Sure. So what people don't know is that there's so much afterlife research out there. 30:59It's not mainstream so we don't hear about it or you know it's not it's doesn't get MAJOR FUNDING so we don't hear about it, but there's so much independent afterlife research outfit out there and there's so much documentation that to me proves that consciousness exists beyond 31:18beyond physical death right i totally spaced out your question, though. I'm gonna go go off on a tangent 31:24Oh, Spirit Guides31:27I get into my afterlife brain. And I'm like, Okay. brandon handley31:30So before I let you go into the next piece of what would it so somebody wants to go buy some information for themselves in the afterlife research. Where's the first place that you would direct them. Spirit Guides31:43So there's an. There's an organization called the afterlife. Research and Education Institute AR e AI and they are great starting off point. 31:53I feel bad because I didn't fully answer your last question, but my mind. brandon handley31:56Told me Spirit Guides31:58But, uh, anyway. So that's a great place to start off at 32:02And they, you know, they are doing research, their funding researchers, all kinds of stuff and and they're just signing up on their newsletter. There's also 32:11There's a newsletter that is run by a couple in Australia. That's really famous. It's called the Friday afterlife report and every Friday, they send out a newsletter of all this afterlife research that's either 32:23From the past or that's come up in the past week there's tons of it out there. So those are the two places I would start the afterlife report. It's with Victor and Wendy's dammit, and then AR e AI afterlife. Research and Education Institute or brandon handley32:38So the question we had was, um, how's examining death. And what happened was the absolute best way to move on. Spirit Guides32:48So, yes, yes, yes, yes. See, now that's a very important question. That's why I was having a hard time letting it go. Um, it's so important because of all the research that's out there, which is what I was getting into. 33:02It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, from what I've seen. And what I've learned and what I've experienced and what I've researched that 33:10our physical bodies dies die, but our souls. Do not that we continue to live in the afterlife. Okay, so with that being said, the information that our loved ones that spirit guides 33:23That Spirit Guides33:25That arc angels, all of these beings and entities that are in on the other side, the information that can be channeled through them is so vital. 33:37To how we live our best lives. So it's, it's an interesting paradox because we don't tend to think about death or the afterlife until we're faced with it because we're so busy thinking about life and 33:47How we can live our best lives, but from what I've learned is that we can learn a lot about living our best lives from that wisdom that comes through the other side. 34:00And it's a shame that people I feel it's a shame that people my age don't get to do that very often because I'm the youngest one at these events. Okay, like 34:09I still don't know many people that have lost their primary you know parent or something like that, that in my age group, and my peer group so they feel like they are 34:19getting robbed of that wisdom because they're not going to go looking into the death or the afterlife. So I do kind of feel like 34:26It's my job to sort of bridge that gap because there's so much knowledge about how we can best live our lives that comes from looking at those more taboo topics. brandon handley34:37You know what's funny to me is just this morning I was listening to a song, ya know which one I listened to so many um I got a Swami the chain. I'm the 34:49But the idea is that, like, there's one in 1000 that's capable of kind of taking this information right that the what you got. Right, so 35:00You're kind of the light is lighting all those around you, as it were, with what you do. So I think that that's kind of the challenge, no matter what age group is 35:09Right when you when you kind of stumble across this you know it's like you're saying you're like everybody needs to know that you can live this magnificent way. Let's follow me. We're gonna sneak in and and 35:20Rightfully nobody's like I was like, no. 35:23Um, but what I want to hit on though is that, you know, when you experienced this grief when you experienced though your mother's passing 35:36I guess like ripping the veil right between you and the spirit world and 35:42Would you, would you explain it like that. Would you describe it like that. And would you 35:47Would you describe your experience with trying to share this information with other people is being challenging and not being able to accept it. Spirit Guides35:56Um, 35:59Yeah there it was totally an unveiling will say brought me so much closer. I mean, it was even the night, my mom passed away I her apparition came to me and I was awake, like, and she came and hugged me so the veil yeah it thinned an immensely immediately. 36:20Has the information been hard for me to get out and for people to accept. 36:27I want the answer to be that it's been really difficult. Like for dramatic effect, but it hasn't it hasn't. And I think that's because 36:37I'm attracting the people that want it. I'm not, I'm not trying to go out there and be a missionary or 36:44Or an evangelical about anything, you know, and I have zero religious ties or affiliation, which is interesting with afterlife. I mean, every, every 36:53Every serious spiritual or I'm sorry, every spirit serious religion has believed in the afterlife and has after life. 37:01Philosophy and I think that, you know, obviously, a lot of people thrown out religion in their lives. And I think that was kind of like we threw the baby out with the bathwater, kind of thing. 37:10So I'm not, I'm not attached to any religion or anything like that. So I don't think that I come off as missionary. I just think I, I tried to share my authentic experience and people who are looking for. 37:23Some answers to their own grief. They find me and it's so far the. The result has been one of comforting for them, rather than 37:34You know, combative or I don't believe what you're saying. So I maybe I'm fortunate in that but you know it hasn't it hasn't been too difficult. It's actually been very rewarding. I think brandon handley37:44I can see that, especially online. What about a person Spirit Guides37:48Well in person. It's like I'm 37:49Preaching the choir, you know, I'm going to 37:52But I will say this, I will say, even in my because I told you about my history as a, you know, being in the spiritual closet and everything, even the people in my life who like my family who's known me forever and 38:02You know weren't into these things at all. They just by osmosis have 38:07By coming to my events by hearing my podcast, things like that. And now they're there, you know, exploring their own stuff and their own afterlife. And now they've 38:16Had certain people passed away and they're reaching out to mediums and investigating like oh yeah I remember Arizona said this, so let me invest it on my own. So it's kind of like planting the seeds, you know, brandon handley38:27Not 100% i think that what you've done is, is by your by leading by example you've given them permission. Right. 38:33Yeah, showing them that you can step into the space without going on claims. 38:39Right, right. That is a good that it can be a good thing. Um, I like that you kind of touched on, you know, kind of these religions and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and 38:51As far as I can tell right religions are kind of like this. 38:56Again, just like one of the thousands going to kind of understand this information right and then my kind of wants to do this just the whole 39:03You know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear right and then does you like Panda hated that lines real 39:11Quick. Um, but the thing. And I think that's the attraction of some of the Eastern philosophies right because they've been so the console like 39:19Christianity bad, you know, the pope did this and you know those priests did that and all these things so that like they just won't accept it, even though, like the exact same thing as being in 99% of the same 39:30thing over here and like these Eastern religions and they're all if you got a contract is out, man. Look what I found, like 39:36You know, so I think that it really gives us people the opportunity to framework right for for their space. 39:43And for everybody else is kind of rejected if there's people like yourself, and I don't like, well, there's this other space. We can hang out into what's been said and all these other places, but you just want to have this different same conversation. Let's do it. 39:54Right, right, right. Um, 39:56Let's talk about 39:57The fest coming up. So this is podcast, I'm probably you know this weekend, which will I know the dates are like 928 or something like that. 40:09But you know what's the festival. Let's talk about what you got a Spirit Guides40:12Spiritual brandon handley40:13On 2020 Spirit Guides40:14Cool. Yeah. So it's the conscious spirit fest. It's a collaboration between myself. 40:20And my company spirit guides media and Mona Loring and her company conscious living PR and so it's conscious spirit fest. It's on October 10 or no, it's not. It's on October 18 I was thinking 10 for October is on October 18 2020 40:36It's a Sunday, and it's basically it's an all day online virtual festival, because that's what we're doing now virtual all day long and 40:45We're so excited about it. We basically curated the event that we wanted to have right now. 40:51You know we are lonely and isolated and we do need spiritual community, one way or another right now. And so we wanted to build something for people to 41:02Unite and people who who are want to focus on Unity right now in this crazy polarized role. And so we've. We have everything from yoga in the morning to guided meditations to sound healing to breath work. And then we have amazing speakers that are talking about everything from 41:21How to deal with this pandemic burnout to energy protection for light workers, we're going to have a medium come and do live medium ship readings and we our keynote speaker is column Adele, who's an astrologer, and he's going to be talking about 41:38You know the astrology coming up, you know, for 20 2021 and all that. And in astrology in these uncertain times and what what what we might have to look forward to, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly or whatever. 41:51So, so, yeah. It's basically a day for everybody to come together and do all things mystical and create a spiritual community and 41:58And hang out together. So we're really, really excited about it. brandon handley42:02Now this sounds exciting. Like I said, you know, I think I saw Mona's paying off on Instagram. I saw start following it, and it seems like you know 42:10I love what you guys are putting together their talk to me a little bit about the astrologer, I think he's got like a little bit of a baton. What's his What's his Spirit Guides42:17So called Collins handle on Instagram is queer cosmos. And so he has he's he's and he is 42:24He's an amazing gay man and he started doing astrology for the queer community and which is was novel at the time, you know, and but more than that. I mean, he is 42:35He's one of my favorite guests have on my podcast. I'll say that right now. He's so enjoyable. He's brilliant. I mean IQ off the charts and he's he's so fun. So anytime that he's around. It's a good time. And I definitely recommend following him on Instagram at clear cosmos. He's great. brandon handley42:55So yeah, I remember that you're seeing them and chocolate. 42:59Yeah. brandon handley43:00Funny Guy when I grew up. I grew up, like in the gay community, you know, was out in San Francisco, San Francisco in the 80s right and and the one thing that happened out there was like my mom was an altercation with 43:16Her significant other, at the time, and he ended up by children and stuff. And so I ran across it, you know, the neighborhood and got these guys on the bed and they came. I can't rescue my mom so 43:28Oh wow, for the rest of my life, you know, gay guys have a 43:30Have a soft spot in my heart. Right. And it's just been in that community. It's, it's fun, right. Like, I mean, Spirit Guides43:36Oh, there's no doubt about that. brandon handley43:37So it's always a good time. 43:39See on 43:40Where, you know, should I send people to come check out more actually know what before I do that, 43:45I've done this for a minute, just because you know so the idea to have spiritual though. 43:48Is that you get this kind of you for high thru spirituality. Right. And that's like on the on the take us a spiritual dope is about that and then like 43:58You know, what's your spiritual hit right like and it talks about meditation, but when you when you're connected to source where, what does that look like Spirit Guides44:08Whoo. Yeah, there's, there's two for me. So definitely meditation. I'm a avid meditation or 44:15But their original Oh gee, writing, man. That's my space. That's my timelessness, that's the 44:20One place where I don't care if I haven't eaten and that's saying a lot. I love to eat. You know what I'm saying. Like that's that's the time where time flies and I just 44:30I'm in so much joy and I'm so inspired. I'm in spirit. You know that's that's where it is for me is when I'm writing. And so this man I'm preaching to myself right now. I got to clear it more time in my schedule to do it. 44:43But yeah, that's my spiritual dope for sure is is being in that creative zone. 44:50I love that question. brandon handley44:52Thank you. So the idea that too is like i mean i would i would i would say that 45:00You know, create you are creators right 45:03Yeah. And then when you surrender to that creativity. That's 45:08within you, right, that is source flowing through you. Is that fair to say Spirit Guides45:13Oh yeah 100%. I mean, we would we call God the Creator. And if you look at metaphysical principles as above, so below. We are here to create 45:26You know, and that's why that nine to five working somebody else's dream and fluorescent lit room didn't work for me because I felt that called to be creative. I felt, what am I doing here, if I'm not creating brandon handley45:37Something Spirit Guides45:38And now you can be creative, creative doesn't mean writing or painting all the time, creative can mean coming up with a scientific cure for cancer or whatever, you know, using your creative brain. You're in passionate about it. And so I absolutely agree with you. brandon handley45:52I love that you hit on life because 45:55People don't always recognize that they feel like creativity has to be writing painting singing, dancing. Spirit Guides46:02Brain, the arts. brandon handley46:03The classical arts 46:05Yeah, right. But 46:08And I know as somebody one day. 46:11You just got it. What is it that you'd like to create and I'm like, Well, I'm not very creative like 46:14You know you're raising kids are doing this that the other than your training things right, you're making moments, you're creating moments I mean creativity is more than, you know, put a pretty picture right so I love that you hit on that. Thanks for hanging on that. 46:29Yeah, what type of meditation do you do it, you Spirit Guides46:34Got just you didn't do not asked me that question. 46:37I am I am not. 46:39Trained in meditation at all. I'm self taught and 46:44For whatever reason, I'm pretty good at it. I just I lay down you can see my bed back there. I lay down horizontally. I don't sit in lotus position or anything I lay down on my bed. 46:54I play some Native American flute music and I go in 46:57Los brandon handley46:59That's great to write in terms of meditation or a feeling it's got to be done a certain way or like, yeah, I did a really shitty meditation this morning. Spirit Guides47:09I i think 47:11I think I you know it's the keep it simple, stupid like that's that's been my philosophy for 47:17My spiritual path and it's what's worked out for me. Like I and I you know in my company I've seen it all. I promote people that do it all. I'm talking like all the all the modalities and the 47:29Divination tactics and all this stuff and I'm Oh gee prayer and meditation and you know we all just got to do what works for us. brandon handley47:38To so they 47:40Just show us what your prayer. Looks like I always say this because I think of this Norman Vincent feel kind of skip 47:49It's not as good. It's like when he's doing his own in power positive thinking thing. 47:53And talks about this lady testing because you when you pray you don't like out there like a beggar. 47:59You know, you're like oh please give me all these things would you like you demand you know much very somewhere, come what you're talking about, like, 48:07I'm not going after it. It's got to come to me like these are things I want you know. So what's your, what's your prayer look like. Just out of curiosity, Spirit Guides48:13Yeah, I mean it's it. That is a good point it start, the only it starts always with gratitude. 48:20Always with gratitude and and then I do go into my demands. I do feeling that I've, I've had the shift from beggar to 48:30You know, this is, this is what I this is what is going to be brought to me and I, and I've learned that over time through spiritual mentors, saying, you know, you 48:38This is yours for the taking. You can you demand that so I start with gratitude and and I pray for you know what I need. In most of the time that's to take away my 48:50Worries and stresses and concerns because that's the only thing in my way. So I do pray for that to be taken and I pray for the people that I love and I pray that 49:02You know that love walks before me wherever I go. And then I pray to be used, how spirit needs me. And then I say, thank you. 49:11Yeah. brandon handley49:12Um, this will be like my last question. 49:17So when you. I like the idea of writing when you write 49:24With a pen in hand right or doesn't have to be. But I feel like that's what I'm most connected. I like to call it cosmic record player. This is my cosmic needle right 49:36You know, do you have a preference of writing by hand or typing. Spirit Guides49:41I'm 49:43I'm right differently. I write, I write both ways. And I write for different reasons I I write. I typically write 49:52Pen in Hand in my journal when I'm writing for myself and nobody else if that makes sense. And for my own clarity and my own as you say connection. 50:03But it's all about the computer for everything else. 50:07My hand hurts too much. brandon handley50:10Out of out of curiosity, right, like yourself. Once Spirit Guides50:13I do agree with you though there's there's different 50:16A whole different vibe. When you got the pen in your hand. Right, right. brandon handley50:20Now, and look, I mean, it takes a lot to to write Tom by paper. 50:27Pretty fast, man. Spirit Guides50:28Yeah, exactly. brandon handley50:31Okay, so where we're gonna need to go a couple places or warm place. So we're gonna go to find you and the spirit fast. Spirit Guides50:39Sure, I'm okay. Ultimately, you can go to spirit guides media.com for everything that I do. And on top of the navigation. 50:48At spirit guides media com you will see a link that says festival and that is where you can learn more about it. You can see the lineup. The full lineup. I didn't touch on everything. 50:58And also purchase tickets and we are offering a sliding scale pay what you can because times are tough and that is 51:05I feel the responsible thing to do. So we have that offered and other than that, you can find me on instagram at spirit guides media or my personal one is at underscore Arizona bell. I think that covers everything brandon handley51:20No. 51:22Um, well, this event view digitally after the past Spirit Guides51:28Great question. Can't believe I forgot to say that. Absolutely. So if you are able to catch none of it live or half of it live or all of it live and want to watch it again. We will send out a replay of the entire day video. So you'll get to see it all. brandon handley51:43Awesome, Arizona. Thank you so much for stopping by. Spirit Guides51:45Thanks, Brandon. It's been a joy and a pleasure.

Transcription:James Linder 0:03Every health system is looking at their labor stack if you will. Who does what work? How is work getting done? How's the care provided? So I do believe we will get to a different care delivery model than we had in December of 2019. And hopefully, that will be better for the patients and be more efficient economically.Gary Bisbee 0:23That was Dr. James Linder, CEO of Nebraska Medicine, discussing how the COVID crisis will lead to a new delivery model to provide more convenient and efficient care for the patient. I'm Gary Bisbee. And this is Fireside Chat. Dr. Linder has a storied career at the University of Nebraska, including being interim president, a long term faculty appointment as Professor of pathology and microbiology, and his current appointment as CEO of Nebraska Medicine. Dr. Linder is a long-standing entrepreneur with a broad range of interests. Let's listen to Dr. Linder respond to a question about the public health infrastructure and its importance to national security.James Linder 1:05The pandemic has illustrated the fact that robust public health infrastructure is essential for not only the health of individuals but the health of the economy. It's not nice to have, you really need a strong public health infrastructure. And I think every city-state and the federal government has underfunded that for many years because it's not a glamorous activity. Hopefully, people have learned from this pandemic that proper investments and public health are essential.Gary Bisbee 1:37Our conversation includes Dr. Linder discussing a leader's most important characteristic in times of crisis, Nebraska medicine, economics, what he likes most about Nebraska, and the role of the Nebraska medicine biocontainment unit that received early COVID patients from the west coast. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. James Linder to the microphone.Well, good afternoon, Jim, and welcome.James Linder 2:03Thank you very much, Gary, I'm delighted to be with you on this podcast.Gary Bisbee 2:06We're pleased to have you at the microphone for sure. It's always interesting to learn about our guests. You're Midwesterner born in Nebraska and have been at the University of Nebraska in one form or another for quite a while. What do you like best about the Midwest?James Linder 2:21As you say, I was born and raised here. And I guess I could say I like the seasons to some extent, and I certainly like working with the people. I've had just great professional interactions since I joined the faculty here in Nebraska in 1983.Gary Bisbee 2:37For those of us that aren't familiar with Nebraska, how would you describe Nebraskans?James Linder 2:43Well, I would say we're the well-deserved brunt of many jokes. You know, it's like a study, in contrast, it's a very agricultural state with expanses of land with very few people. So we've been practicing social distancing since 1869. Then we also some major metropolitan areas with huge businesses with Fortune 500 companies. So it's a nice contrast that appeals to many people.Gary Bisbee 3:12What would be the distinctive feature of Omaha as a city other than there are these four companies and Nebraska medicine and so on, but how would you describe Omaha to somebody that was not familiar with it?James Linder 3:25I'd probably still describe it as a big town as opposed to a city, which is a little unfair since the metropolitan area has close to seven or 800,000 people, but it's a community I think, where people do still know each other, they interact a lot of farmers markets, cultural events, and everything is accessible. And I lived in the Boston area for a while for work. It was very hard to go to a show because of just the logistics of traveling and parking, whereas in Omaha, you can still enjoy those things.Gary Bisbee 3:57Now our listeners wouldn't forgive me if I didn't ask the obvious question. Do you know Warren Buffet? And do you run into him at all?James Linder 4:05I do know, Mr. Buffett. We have run into each other on a few social events. And he's a very private individual. And I think everyone in Omaha respects that. I've been in restaurants where he's been at a table and no other people walk up to him to start conversations. They're very grateful for what he's done for the community and for all the investors in Berkshire Hathaway, but he enjoys his private life. And a favorite story about Mr. Buffett, I actually when I was a younger person, saw him in a hardware store looking for a part on his own, and walked around some aisle and there's Warren Buffett. I didn't have the foresight then to ask him for investment. My wife Karen actually did write a book on the women executives who served Berkshire Hathaway for many years. And in doing that, we learned quite a bit about the company and its success.Gary Bisbee 4:59That sounds like a must-read and maybe the next podcast interview would be with Karen, but on to you. When did you decide on medicine?James Linder 5:07Well, I was an undergraduate biochemistry major Iowa State and was actually pursuing a PhD program in the 1970s. And unfortunately, that time, getting a PhD in biochemistry was a ticket to the unemployment line. And I decided that I could be a very good researcher with a MD degree, as well as a PhD degree. So that really drove my choice of medicine. And some of you may know that I'm a pathologist by training. And pathology is more of basic science. So that was kind of in line with my research interests.Gary Bisbee 5:40You've held a variety of positions at Nebraska, including interim president in the university and certainly been a professor of pathology microbiology for quite a while and currently CEO in Nebraska medicine. What were the circumstances that resulted in your being appointed interim president?James Linder 5:58I was working in the university prior to that time leading to technology development. And that was because I had worked in industry for about 12 years. And so I had a good sense of tech transfer. And when the president of the university took a position at the City University of New York, he recommends that I'd be one of the candidates for that consideration, simply because we had worked together at the system level. The University of Nebraska has four different campuses. So it has quite an expanse throughout the state.Gary Bisbee 6:31How long were you interim President, then?James Linder 6:33So luckily, I had to get out of jail free card. My agreement specified that I could not be a candidate. The search concluded after one year, and so I had a full year of all the things that you would have as a university president, including an occasional athletic department, controversy or two, but then when the year ended, they had a good candidate who followed me who was dedicated to being a university president. He took that job on.Gary Bisbee 6:58If you could focus on one thing that you learned as President of the University of Nebraska during that year, what would it be?James Linder 7:05I would say that it is a learning that I've tried to carry all my life is that if you have people who are working for you or with you, let them do their jobs, don't try and do their jobs. Because the reason that they are a dean or department chair or Chancellor is to lead their faculty and their employees. And I think that's always been a valuable lesson. I've applied in different roles. I was the Dean of medicine for a while and I left the chairs to do their job. And as CEO, I let my chiefs and divisional leaders do their jobs, that's why they're there to do the best job possible.Gary Bisbee 7:43That's a good transition to the current role you're holding, which is CEO of Nebraska Medicine. What were the circumstances, Jim, to your being appointed to Nebraska medicine? You were sitting on the Nebraska medicine board at the time. But what were the circumstances underlying your appointment?James Linder 8:01I was on the Nebraska medicine board and clearly had no aspiration or even concept that I was qualified to be the CEO of the health system. But the board asked me to assume that leadership role and I talked to my wife and she thought I was being a little underutilized at that time since I had finished the university presidency. And I thought it'd be a good experience.Gary Bisbee 8:26So you agreed to do it. And you've been CEO now for about two years. What have you learned as CEO that you didn't realize when you were sitting on the board of Nebraska medicine?James Linder 8:39I think the greatest thing I came to realize both as a board member and as a physician practice at this hospital for decades, was how incredibly complex it is to deliver patient care at a high level. It's really, as all the other CEOs listening know, you're running basically a hotel, restaurant, Critical Care Service and emergency room. It's a very complex business. And each day when we have our daily shout out here 30 different departments report. And if anyone of them has a problem, say pharmacy, it dramatically impacts the rest of the health system.Gary Bisbee 9:17Most people don't realize that you're also a highly successful entrepreneur. When did that interest develop?James Linder 9:25It probably grew mostly out of my experience in the industry. I began working for a company part-time, and in the mid-90s. That was based on some of the academic work I'd done. And at the same time, I retained my faculty employment. But in doing that, we were forced to innovate new products, we had the opportunity to look at partner companies for either acquisition or other relationships. And it really gave me direct exposure to business and business development. So when I came back to Nebraska. I was actually leading the technology transfer office at the Medical Center for a while. And in doing that was active and trying to build commercial activities out of some of our intellectual property.Gary Bisbee 10:14So what are your current entrepreneurial interests, Jim?James Linder 10:17Well, for 10 years my wife and I have operated an angel investment fund called Linseed capital. And I think we invested in about 30 companies. And all of those have been great experiences because we live vicariously through the founders. Clearly, not all of them have been successful. But we've had great learnings from dealing with those people. And then for about the last five years, my wife and I have been operating, she more than me, a company that does ceramic 3d printing. And we were attracted to that because of potential medical applications. And that's been true, but then there are also great uses for ceramics and other industries.Gary Bisbee 10:59A very Interesting life you live, Dr. Linder. Why don't we move to Nebraska Medicine? Can you describe Nebraska medicine?James Linder 11:07Well, at Nebraska medicine we are the primary teaching hospital for the University of Nebraska Medical Center. We are a free-standing entity that has its own governing board. We don't report directly to the state of Nebraska. We operate to hospitals, approximately 800 licensed beds. And during the course of a typical year, we'll have around 34,000 visits, 95,000 emergency room visits, and 74 clinics that accommodate probably a million clinic visits. So we're small compared to many larger academic medical centers and health systems, but really ethically share some of the same opportunities and problems.Gary Bisbee 11:47What about the culture? How would you describe the culture of Nebraska Medicine?James Linder 11:51I would say it is targeted toward getting things done doing the right thing. Innovation, teamwork, the pursuit of excellence. wants courage and healing which are embodied in our values. People work really well together.Gary Bisbee 12:05Nebraska medicine received one of the early COVID patients, as I recall, share with us why Nebraska medicine would have received those early patients?James Linder 12:15It's a very good question. And it underscores a comment that Steve Jobs made and a commencement address at Stanford, that you can only connect the dots backward. And if you look back to 2004, a decision was made to establish and biocontainment unit at the University Nebraska Medical Center. It sat unused for 10 years, but every month, the staff in that unit practiced donning and doffing and taking care of highly infectious patients. Then in 2014, we had of course, the Ebola crisis that led to people receiving care in the US, and Nebraska medicine took care of the majority of those patients. After that, experience it was recognized that the country in the world needed training and dealing with highly infectious diseases. So over the next five years, we participated in training thousands of military and civilian personnel in the country and actually established the global center for infectious disease on our campus. And it was that center that was activated when the patients from the diamond princess cruise ship, were returned to the US who were COVID positive. And we monitored some of those who are not too ill in isolation and then provided care for the others.Gary Bisbee 13:35Definitely an interesting story. Let's move to COVID a little bit more in a moment. There's been obviously social unrest around the country. Sounds like Omaha has had its share. How would you describe that Jim and how has it affected Nebraska Medicine?James Linder 13:53Omaha has had a share of an appropriate share, I would add of concern over the disparities that exist both economically for people of color and in healthcare access. And our physicians and nurses have stood with those individuals. There was an event just on Friday, where hundreds of healthcare professionals knelt in a moment of silence to recognize the problems that our country is now dealing with. When I communicate to our staff, I emphasize that we cannot solve problems on a national level. But locally, we can do a lot to impact in a positive way the lives of people who would like education and healthcare, would like to add this as a career. And certainly dealing with the healthcare disparities, making sure that everybody has access to screening and care in the state.Gary Bisbee 14:47Well said let's turn if we could to the COVID crisis, how has the surge progressed in Nebraska and particularly for Nebraska Medicine?James Linder 14:57if I had to use a term, I would say a Rising Tide as opposed to a tidal wave. We began preparing for a surge, probably in February, maybe March. And that was based on some of the modelings we had seen, that could affect our estate. And either because of social distancing or other factors, we didn't see that spike in impatience. But we've seen a steady climb and the number of COVID-19 patients we're caring for, typically 10% to 15% of our inpatient census, I pointed out to people that during this entire preparation for the surge, more than 90% of patients that we care for either in our ambulatory clinics or the hospital are the routine issues of heart attacks and cancer and neurologic disease that require our attention. So you're ramping up to do something totally different taking care of patients, while at the same time you have to deliver excellent care for everyone else.Gary Bisbee 15:55Shortage of PPE has been all around the country, particularly those in the midst of the surges, how has PPE been for Nebraska medicine?James Linder 16:07In general, we had adequate supplies. And that is partly because of the position we sat in the country of being prepared to take care of large numbers of patients who might be ill with an infectious disease. We did pioneer early on the UV decontamination of N95 masks, which allowed an individual to use his or her mask over say three times. We also thought a lot about innovation. Our teams put together ways for droplets that might arise from having nasal canula in place, using shields that could protect anesthesiologists and a lot of environmental controls to make sure that health care workers are not affected.Gary Bisbee 16:52There's been a lot of discussion about the role that the federal government ought to play for stockpiling PPE. How do you think about that, Jim?James Linder 17:02Well, it's a question of when you're doing it. If you're doing it prior to a pandemic, it's a wonderful thing. That way, health systems can equitably access those resources. Yes, the federal government is competing against health systems to buy PPE during a time where you're trying to secure for your own patient care needs, and there isn't a system to equitably distributed and that can cause problemsGary Bisbee 17:29How about the state of Nebraska? Is the state of Nebraska have any stockpiling of PPE?James Linder 17:35The state of Nebraska has been a very good partner for Nebraska medicine from the onset of the pandemic. Our staff here at UMC have worked with the six different regions in the state to try and make sure that people were educated on protocols and as much PP was available as possible. So we did have some state resources we drew on some of the resources that existed at Nebraska Medicine to make sure that the hospitals and nursing homes could actually deliver the care in a safe way. pp is just an amazing tool for controlling the pandemic. We have had no health care workers that have become infected when properly using PPE that's since January of this year. Now I'm knocking on wood here because we could always have a mistake tomorrow. But we made use of PPE extenders to make sure that our individuals were in the care setting or properly putting on and taking off their PPE so that did not accidentally contaminate cells.Gary Bisbee 18:39Jim, how about telemedicine? It has exploded in virtually every health system in the country. How about Nebraska Medicine?James Linder 18:47It has likewise seen a dramatic increase. In the last month, we had some days where there were more telemedicine visits than there were in-person visits. And so if there is ever a silver lining from this pandemic It is illustrated that patients like telemedicine. Physicians can practice high-quality telehealth remotely. And it is a real plus for healthcare Also consider the fact in a rural state like Nebraska, it can enable care to populations that otherwise may not get it. So I think that organized medicine should work hard with the federal government and insurance carriers to make sure that the reimbursement for telehealth services is appropriate.Gary Bisbee 19:29If the reimbursement is appropriate, do you think that this increased usage will continue or even grow?James Linder 19:35I think it will continue. I think it will require our health systems to rethink how they engage patients. So we may have diagnostic centers where blood draws could happen. And imaging studies could be done here, before or after the telehealth visit. So all that information is there. And then I think you'll see some services that have not been adequately served in the country such as in-cancer screening, that will grow tremendously because the paucity of dermatologists and many communities has led to a deficit in screening for skin cancer. And I think that can be resolved by telehealth. So the CMS and the states issued waivers pretty early on. Was that particularly helpful? I think that the waivers that were issued were helpful, and I think that we should look carefully at how that has impacted care. And when it's improved care, we should look for those waivers to be made permanent so that it is part of the ongoing provision of care. how do you think about social distancing with let's say your amatory care,Gary Bisbee 20:40How do you think about social distancing with let's say your ambulatory care, waiting areas will there need to be new planning to accommodate social distancing?James Linder 20:51The point you bring up is very important. A lot of the ambulatory care areas if you think of how they were historically patients would come in, they would be given a clipboard and they'd fill out several pages of answering questions. And that does not lend itself to good social distancing. So with the digital front door, if you will, that we've developed with our Nebraska medicine app, which is similar to what many other health systems use, those questions can be answered before the patient comes in. So literally, they show up for their 10 o'clock appointment can be seen immediately in the exam room where they're scheduled to be seen. We've taken the position that all of our providers in the ambulatory setting do wear masks. We provide masks to patients when they come in if they don't have their own. We think that the physical barrier the mask is essential for limiting the spread of the virus.Gary Bisbee 21:45How about rebooting surgeries Have you begun to institute surgeries now?James Linder 21:52We began doing "elective surgeries" when it was permitted by the state surgeries that were required for life and limb, even during the onset of the pandemic we did. The things that could be postponed for four to six weeks were postponed. And we began doing those largely limited by the availability of staff as opposed to our time. Then we found, as I'm sure many other CEOs have taken care of patients who have COVID-19 infections as a significant burden on your critical care, faculty, and staff, whether they're anesthesiologists or pulmonologists and that has limited our ability to staff some of those procedural areas. But we're gradually getting back up to the neighborhood of 80%.Gary Bisbee 22:42COVID has accelerated the timeline for discovery in many cases, vaccines, drugs, devices, as you've pointed out innovations that Nebraska medicine will that accelerate to provider delivery cycles in a commencer Why do you think Jim?James Linder 22:59I think every health system is looking at their labor stack if you will. Who does what work? How is work getting done, how's the care provided? So I do believe we will get to a different care delivery model than we had in December of 2019. And hopefully, that will be better for the patients and be more efficient economically.Gary Bisbee 23:20Let's go to the economics of this, which is not a pretty picture for any of our health systems. How will this COVID outbreak affect and Nebraska medicines finances in 2020?James Linder 23:33Well, for fiscal year 20, we will incur probably a modest financial loss. We were in a fairly strong position, coming into say April this year, but April, May, and June will all be actual negative, if you will. We made the decision early on to not furlough any of our employees. And we had the luxury of doing that because we had sufficient days of cash on hand that we felt we could absorb that law. We also thought that those colleagues would be essential for the recovery of our activities in June, July, and August. But still, it's going to be a difficult year. And it will require some innovation and work on part of everyone to make sure that we can deliver care in an efficient way and make sure patients feel comfortable coming back to the clinics in the hospital.Gary Bisbee 24:23There's a lot of fear out there. Probably 40% of individuals are reluctant to come into a healthcare setting. How are you dealing with that? Are you trying to communicate with the community about that, Jim?James Linder 24:35I believe that the most effective way is direct conversations with the individuals who normally would schedule those patients, making sure that they are aware of the safety precautions in place for their well being. And I make the point that Nebraska medicine was one of the most advanced facilities in the country or the world in dealing with the patient who had an infection. Likewise, the safety protocols we put in place, I think are strong, supportive, and safe for the patient. Fear is fear though. And it does take repeating that message many times over.Gary Bisbee 25:11Yeah, I'm sure. Well, let's hope we don't have another wave in the fall as some are predicting. How are you expecting the payer mix to change?James Linder 25:19Well, I think the payer mix will change in a couple of different ways. In Nebraska, we're finally getting to a point of Medicaid expansion. So we will be reimbursed for Medicaid from sources we did not have access to before. And then I think on the national scene, there will probably be the ongoing juggling of different payers. They probably had a very strong third and fourth quarter because of the fact that many elective procedures were postponed, but there'll be rethinking about how they want to support healthcare and there could be federal legislation as well that affects the payment of services.Gary Bisbee 26:00Turning to leadership. I think we all agree leadership is always important, particularly in times of crisis. What characteristics do you think a top leader ought to have during a crisis?Jim Linder 26:12Calm. That answer may be too brief, but I think it's essential. I think you have to analyze the situation you're in, get input from people who are at the front line and be calm as you'd help guide people through the decision making.Gary Bisbee 26:25Yep. As I've asked other CEOs, that's a frequent answer. So you all have that experience. Let's go to the health infrastructure, it seems clear that public health is more part of the national security than we might have thought in the past. How do you think about that, Jim?James Linder 26:45I think that the pandemic has illustrated the fact that a robust public health infrastructure is essential for not only the health of individuals but the health of the economy. It's not nice to have. You really need a strong public health infrastructure. And I think every city, state and federal government has underfunded that for many years because it's not a glamorous activity. Hopefully, people have learned from this pandemic that proper investments and public health are essential.Gary Bisbee 27:17I totally agree with that. And it seems like it's up to us to continue to push that ball forward, or it runs a risk of being forgotten. Again, Jim, this has been a terrific interview. I'd like to ask one last question if I could. We've been talking about the new normal, off and on now for a couple of months. What do you think would characterize a new normal?James Linder 27:40I think we have to acknowledge the fact that the diseases that plague people before the pandemic continue to exist. And we have to figure out a way to deliver care to those individuals in a way that's safe, while at the same time meeting our challenging requirement of providing care for Cova 19 patients for at least the next year. We think that probably 10% of our hospital occupancy will be of that realm. Then, relative to your public health question, I think the more that we are engaged in communities, making sure people are healthy, making sure that there are not health disparities and access and care. I will have a healthier community overall, and just make the country a better place.Gary Bisbee 28:25Jim, excellent interview. Thanks so much for your time today much appreciated.James Linder 28:29My pleasure.Gary Bisbee 28:31This episode of Fireside Chat is produced by Strafire. Please subscribe to Fireside Chat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening right now. Be sure to rate and review fireside chat so we can continue to explore key issues with innovative and dynamic healthcare leaders. In addition to subscribing and rating, we have found that podcasts are known through word of mouth. We appreciate your spreading the word to friends or those who might be interested. Fireside Chat is brought to you from our nation's capital in Washington DC, where we explore the intersection of healthcare politics, financing, and delivery. For additional perspectives on health policy and leadership. Read my weekly blog Bisbee's Brief. For questions and suggestions about Fireside Chat, contact me through our website, firesidechatpodcast.com, or gary@hmacademy.com. Thanks for listening. 

One of the first times Jesus teaches his disciples concerning the subject of the harvest He spoke these words in John 4.  31Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” 34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. 35Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. 36Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”(John 4:31-38ESV) Last week we studied the process of the harvest. How God plants a seed and that seed turns into stalks, and that stalk produces fruit in due time. In this episode, Pastor David want to teach a few passages when Jesus spoke about a harvest and what He saw concerning the harvest.

In this episode of Beneath the Subsurface we turn back time with Daniel Orange, our ONE Partner for multibeam technology and seafloor mapping - and incredible storyteller - and Duncan Bate, our Director of Project Development in the Gulf of Mexico and Geosciences. Dan takes Duncan and Erica on an expansive journey through time to meet a special variety of archea that dwell in the impossible oases surrounding sea bottom vents. We also explore the relatively recent discoveries in geoscience leading to seafloor mapping and how seep hunting offshore can enrich the exploration process today. TABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro03:35 - What is a seep?09:06 - The impossible oasis11:45 - Chemotrophic life24:15 - Finding seeps26:51 - The invention of multibeam technology30:11 - Seep hunting with multibeam32:48 - Seismic vs. multibeam34:43 - Acquiring multibeam surveys44:32 - The importance of navigation46:20 - Water column anomalies49:12 - Seeps sampling and exploration56:23 - Multibeam targets59:12 - Multibeam strategy1:03:11 - Reservoir content1:06:44 - A piece of the puzzle1:10:21 - ConclusionEXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODELearn more about TGS in the Gulf of MexicoOtos MultibeamEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of Geoscience and technology. From the Software Development Department here at TGS. I'm your host, Erica Conedera. For our fourth episode, we'll welcome a very special guest speaker who offers a uniquely broad perspective on the topic of sea floor mapping. We'll learn about the technology of multibeam surveys, why underwater oil seeps are the basis of life as we know it and how the answer to the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg is the Sun. I'm here today with Duncan Bate, our director of projects for the US and Gulf of Mexico. Do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself Duncan?Duncan Bate:00:00:56Sure, yeah, thanks. I basically look after the development of all new projects for TGS in the, in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm here today because a few years ago we worked on a multi beam seep hunting project in the Gulf of Mexico. So I can share some of my experiences and - having worked on that project.Erica:00:01:15Awesome. And then we have our special guest star, Dan Orange. He is a geologist and geophysicist with Oro Negro exploration. Hi Dan.Dan Orange:00:01:24Good morning.Erica:00:01:25Would you like to introduce yourself briefly for us?Dan:00:01:28Sure. Let's see, I grew up in New England, Texas, so I went to junior high school, just a few miles from where we're recording this. But I did go to MIT where I got my bachelor's and master's degree in geology, then went out to UC Santa Cruz to do my PhD and my PhD had field work both onshore and offshore and involved seeps. So we'll come back to that. And also theoretical work as well. I had a short gig at Stanford and taught at Cal State Monterey Bay and spent five years at the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute. Again, pursuing seeps. I left MBARI and started working with the oil patch in 1997 and it was early days in the oil industry pushing off the shelf and heading toward deep water and seeps were both a bug and a feature. So we started applying seep science to the oil industry and have been doing that for oh, now 21-22 years.Dan:00:02:32The entire time that I was at Embargin, and working with the oil patch. And in fact, ongoing, I do research for the US Navy through the Office of Naval Research. It started out involving seeps and canyon formation and it's evolved into multibeam seafloor mapping and acoustics. And that continues. So in the oil patch I was with AOA geophysics, we formed a company AGO to commercialize controlled source EM sold that to Schlumberger. And then we formed an oil company, Black Gold Energy, that would use seeps as a way to, go into oil exploration. And we sold that to NYKO, since leaving Black Gold with Oro Negro. We've been teaming with TGS since 2014 so now going on five years mapping the sea floor, I think we just passed one and a quarter million square kilometers, mapping with TGS as we mapped the sea floor and sample seeps, pretty much around the world for exploration.Erica:00:03:35Awesome. So let's begin our discussion today with what is a seep, if you can elucidate that for us.Dan:00:03:41So a seep is just what it sounds like. It's, it's a place on the earth's surface where something leaks out from beneath. And in our case it's oil and gas. Now seeps have been around since the dawn of humanity. The seeps are referenced in the Bible and in multiple locations seeps were used by the ancient Phoenicians to do repairs on ships they use as medicines and such. And in oil exploration seeps have been used to figure out where to look for oil since the beginning of the oil age. In fact that, you know, there seeps in, in Pennsylvania near Titusville where colonel Drake drilled his first well, where Exxon, had a group of, of people that they call the rover boys that went around the world after World War II looking for places on the Earth's surface that had big structures and oil seeps.Dan:00:04:39Because when you have a seep at the sea floor with or on the Earth's surface with oil and gas, you know that you had organic matter that's been cooked the right amount and it's formed hydrocarbons and it's migrating and all those things are important to findings, you know, economic quantities of oil and gas. So seeps have been used on land since the beginning of oil and gas exploration. But it wasn't until the 1990s that seeps began to affect how we explore offshore. So that's seeps go back to since the dawn of humanity, they were used in oil exploration from the earliest days, the 1870's and 80's onward. But they've been used offshore now since the mid 1990s. So that's, that's kind of, that seeps in context.Duncan:00:05:31But it's actually the, I, the way I like to think about it, it's the bit missing from the, "What is Geology 101" that every, everyone in the oil and gas industry has to know. They always show a source rock and a migration to a trap and a seal. But that actually misses part of the story. Almost every basin in the world has leakage from that trap, either, either directly from the source rock or from the trap. It either fills to the spill point or it just misses the trap. Those hydrocarbons typically make their way to the surface at some point-Dan:00:06:04at some point and somewhere. The trick is finding them.Duncan:00:06:08Yeah, that's the seep. And thus what we're interested in finding.Erica:00:06:12As Jed Clampett from the Beverly hillbillies discovered.Erica:00:06:15Exactly.Dan:00:06:15I was going to include that!Erica:00:06:19Yes.Dan:00:06:19Jed was out hunting for some food and up from the ground came a bubbling crude. That's it.Erica:00:06:27Oil that is.Dan:00:06:29Black gold.Erica:00:06:29Texas tea.Dan:00:06:30That's right. So that's that seep science. So today what we're going to do is we're going to talk about seep communities offshore because what I hope to be able to, you know, kind of convince you of is if oil and gas leak out of the sea floor, a seep community can form. Okay. Then we're going to talk about this thing called multibeam, which is a technique for mapping the sea floor because where you get a seep community, it affects the acoustic properties of the sea floor. And if we change the acoustic properties of sea floor or the shape of the sea floor with this mapping tool, we can identify a potential seep community and then we can go sample that.Dan:00:07:14And if we can sample it, we can analyze the geochemistry and the geochemistry will tell us whether or not we had oil or gas or both. And we can use it in all sorts of other ways. But that's where we're going to go to today. So that's kind of, that's kind of a map of our discussion today. Okay. So as Duncan said, most of the world, he Duncan talked about how in- if we have, an oil basin or gas basin with charge, there's going to be some leakage somewhere. And so the trick is to find that, okay. And so, we could, we could look at any basin in the world and we can look at where wells have been drilled and we can, we can look at where seeps leak out of the surface naturally. And there's a correlation, like for example, LA is a prolific hydrocarbon basin. Okay. And it has Labrea tar pits, one of the most charismatic seeps on earth cause you got saber tooth tigers bubbling outDuncan:00:08:18It's literally a tourist attraction.Dan:00:08:20Right there on Wilshire Boulevard. Okay. And it's a hundred meters long by 50 meters wide. So a hundred yards long, 50 yards wide. And it, that is an oil seep on, on the earth surface in LA okay.Duncan:00:08:32Now, it's important to mention that they're not all as big as that.Dan:00:08:34No, no. Sometimes they're smaller. It could just literally be a patch of oil staining in the sand.Erica:00:08:41Really, that's little.Duncan:00:08:41Oh yeah. I mean, or just an area where there's a cliff face with something draining out of it or it, you know, it could be really, really small, which is easy to find onshore. You know, you send the rover boys out there like you mentioned, and you know, geologists working on the ground, they're going to find these things eventually. But the challenge, which we've been working on with, with the guys from One for the last few years, and now is finding these things offshore.Dan:00:09:06So let's, let's turn the clock back to 1977. Alvin, a submarine, a submersible with three people in it went down on a Mid-ocean Ridge near the Galapagos Islands. And what they found, they were geologists going down to map where the oceanic crust is created. But what they found was this crazy community, this incredible, oasis of life with tube worms and these giant columns with what looked like black smoke spewing into the, into the ocean. And so what they found are what we now call black smokers or hot vents, and what was so shocking is the bottom of the ocean is it's a desert. There's no light, there's very little oxygen, there's not a lot of primary food energy. So what was this incredible, oasis of life doing thousands of meters down on, near the Galapagos Island? Well, it turns out that the base of the food chain for those hot vents are sulfide rich fluids, which come spewing out of the earth and they fuel a chemically based, community that thrives there and is an oasis as there because there's so much energy concentrated in those hot sulfide rich fluids that it can support these chemically based life forms.Dan:00:10:34So that's 1977 in 1985 in the same summer, chemically based life forms, but based on ambient temperature, water, not hot water were found in the Gulf of Mexico and off the coast of Oregon that same summer, 1985 in the Gulf of Mexico, the base of the food chain, what was fueling this chemical energy was hydrocarbons, oil and gas, and off the coast of Oregon, what was fueling it was hydrogen sulfide. So this is 1985, the year I graduated college. And so I started graduate school in 1986 and part of my research was working with the group that was trying to figure out the plumbing that was bringing these chemically rich fluids up to the earth's surface that were feeding this brand new community of life. You know, what we now call cold seeps. So, we, you know, depending on what you had for breakfast today, you know, eggs or pancakes or had your coffee, all the energy that we've got coursing through our veins right now is based upon photosynthesis.Dan:00:11:45We're either eating plants that got their energy from sunlight or we're eating eggs that came from chickens that eat the plants that can, where the came from, sunlight. Everything in our world up here is based upon photosynthesis. So, but the seep communities, the hot vents and the black smokers and the cold seeps, the base of the food pyramid is chemical energy. So they're called chemosynthetic communities or chemoautotrophic because the bacteria get their trophic energy, the energy that they need to live from chemicals. And so the bacteria utilize the chemicals and organisms have evolved to host these bacteria inside their bodies. And the bacteria metabolize the chemical energy to produce the enzymes that these larger organisms need to live. So these larger organisms can include clams, tube worms, the actual bacteria themselves. But, so the kind of how does this work is- let's get, because if we understand how seeps work and we know that seeps can be based upon oil and gas seepage, then you'll understand why we're using these seeps to go out and impact, oil and gas exploration.Dan:00:13:09So the- at the bottom of the ocean, we have a little bit of oxygen, but as we go down into the sediments, below the surface, we, we consume all that oxygen and we get to what's called the redox boundary to where we go from sulfate above it to hydrogen sulfide below it. And so below this redox boundary, we can have methane, we can have oil, but above that redox boundary, the methane will oxidize and the oil will be biodegraded and eaten by critters and whatnot. Now, living at that boundary, are bacteria who metabolize these compounds, and that's where they get the energy they need to live. These bac- Okay, now kind of turned the clock even farther back before the earth had an oxygen atmosphere, the only way that organisms got energy to live was from chemicals. Okay? So before we had algae and we created this oxygen atmosphere that we breathe billions of years ago, the organisms that lived on earth were chemosynthetic.Dan:00:14:13So these bacteria survive today and they live everywhere where we cross this redox boundary. Okay? So there they're actually archaea, which are some of the most primitive forms of bacteria, and I'm not a biologist, so I can't tell you how many billions of years ago they formed, but they're ancient and they're living down there.Erica:00:14:33So they haven't changed since then. They're basically the same?Dan:00:14:36Nope.Erica:00:14:36Wow.Dan:00:14:36They figured out a way to get energy to survive. It works.Erica:00:14:40Why change it?Dan:00:14:41If you're an Archea, right? So they're living down there at that redox boundary. Now, if we have seepage-seepage, is the flow of liquids. You actually lift that redox boundary. And if you have enough seepage, you can lift that boundary right to the sediment water interface. If you step in a pond and you smell that, sulfide, that rotten egg smell, your foot has gone through the redox boundary.Dan:00:15:08Okay? And you've disturbed some archaea down there and they'll get nudged aside. They'll go find someplace else. Okay? So with seepage, we lift the redox boundary to the sediment water interface and, and the bacteria are there and they're ready to utilize the reduced fluids as their source of energy. And so you can see them, we have pictures. You can do an internet search and say, you know, bacteria chemosynthetic bacteria and images and look at and look at photos of them. They it, they look like, okay, when you put the Guacamole in the back of the fridge and you forget it for three weeks and you open it up, that's what they look like. It's that fuzzy. It's this fuzzy mat of bacteria. And those are the bacteria. They're out there. They're metabolizing these fluids. Okay. Now in the process of metabolizing these fluids, they produce the bacteria, produce enzymes like ATP.Dan:00:16:01And I wish my partner John Decker, was here because he would correct me. I think it's adinase triphosphate and it's an enzyme that your body produces and sends out to basically transmit chemical energy. Okay. Now at some point in geologic time, and I'll, I'll actually put a number on this in a second. The larger fauna like clams and tube worms, evolve to take advantage of the fact that the bacteria are producing energy. And so they then evolve to use the bacteria within themselves to create the energy that they need to live. Okay? So, what happens is these seep fauna produce larva, the larva go into, you know, kind of a dormant stage and they're flowing around the ocean. And if they sense a seep, okay. They settle down and they start to grow and as, and then they, they, they, the bacteria become part of them.Dan:00:16:56They're the, the clams. You open a clam in the bacteria live in the gills. Okay. And so they'd grow and, and so these clams and tube worms start to grow and they form a community. Okay. So that a clam, what a clam does these clams, they stick their foot into the, into the sediment and they absorb the reduced fluids into their circulation system. They bring that, that circulating fluid to their gills where the bacteria then metabolize these reduced fluids and send the enzymes out to the tissues of the clam so it can grow. So this clam does not filter feed like every other clam on the planet. The tube worms that host these bacteria in them don't filter feed. So the base of the food chain is chemosynthetic. But the megafauna themselves, don't get their energy directly from methane or hydrogen sulfide. They get their energy from the bacteria, which in the bacteria, you know, the bacteria happy, they'll live anywhere.Dan:00:17:59But sitting here in a clam, they get the reduced fluids they need to live and they grow. Now it's what's cool for us as, as seep hunters is different species have evolved to kind of reflect different types of fluids. So if you know a little bit about seep biology, when you pick up like a batheum Modiolus mussel, you go, Huh? There could be oil here. Okay. Because that particular mussel is found in association with, with oil seeps. Okay. So that we won't go too far down that path, but there are different organisms. The important thing is that these communities, form again an oasis of life, a high concentration of life where we have a seep. Now, the oldest seep community that I'm aware of is Devonian. So that's between 420 and 360 million years. It's found in the high atlas mountains of Morocco.Dan:00:18:58And that seep community, a fossil seep community includes the same types of clams in tube worms that we find today. Okay. But they're also found with authigenic carbonate. Okay. Which is like limestone. And so, and that limestone in cases, this fossil seep community and has preserved it for hundreds of millions of years. So where does limestone come from? So remember we've got methane, CH4 in our, in some of our seep fluids. Well, if that's oxidized by bacteria, cause they're going to get energy from the methane they produced bicarbonate, which is HCO3 as a negative charge on it. And that bicarbonate, if it sees calcium, they like each other. And so they'll form calcium carbonate, limestone. And since sea water is everywhere saturated with calcium, if we have a natural gas seep, the bacteria will oxidize in natural gas and the bicarbonate will grab the calcium to form this cement.Dan:00:20:04Now deep enough in the ocean, it actually is acidic enough that that cement will start to dissolve. So we just have this, we have a factory of of bacteria. It might be dissolving some places, but most of the places we look, the carbonate doesn't dissolve. So we've got clams, tube worms, we've got the limestone authigenic carbonate, and if the pressure and temperature are in the right field, that methane can also form this really cool substance called gas hydrate and gas hydrate is a clathrate the, it's a combination of water and methane where the water forms an ice-like cage and the methane sits in that cage. And so you can light this on fire in your hand and the gas will burn. Nice yellow flame will go up from your hand and the cage will melt. The ice melts. So you get cold water on your hand with flames going up. It, it's cool stuff.Erica:00:21:03Did you bring one of these to show us today?Dan:00:21:06The pressure and temperature in this room are not, methane's not an equilibrium. You need hot, you need high pressure, moderately high pressure and you need very low temperatures. So, if we had-Duncan:00:21:20Neither are common in Houston, (Laughter)Dan:00:21:22No, and we wouldn't be terribly comfortable if that was what it was like here in this room. But the, the important thing for us now as we think about seep science and, and seep hunting is that this, this limestone cement, the authigenic carbonate, the gas hydrate, the shells of a clam, okay. Are All harder. Okay? Harder, I will knock on the table. They're harder than mud. So the sea floor, most of the most of the world's ocean is gray-green mud and ooze from all sorts of sediment and diatoms and plankton raining down onto the ocean floor. So most of the world's oceans is kind of just muddy sandy some places, but sediment, it's where you get these seep communities that now we've, we've formed a spot that some that's harder and rougher than the area around it. And that's our target when we, deploy technologies to go out and, and look at seeps.Dan:00:22:26So, so hot smokers, hot vents were discovered in 1977. Cold seeps were discovered in 1985 and were found to be associated, in the Gulf of Mexico with oil and gas seepage. That's 1985. Those were discovered with human beings in a sub in submersibles. Later, we deployed robotic submersibles to go look at seeps, ROV's and even later we developed tools to go sample seeps without needing to have eyes on the bottom and we'll come and talk and we'll come back and talk about that later.Dan:00:22:57But for kind of recap, a seep is a place where something is leaking out of the earth surface. When we talk about seeps, we're talking about offshore seepage of oil and gas that supports this profusion of chemically-based life forms as well as these precipitants, the authigenic carbonate limestone and gas hydrate. And the important thing is they change the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Duncan:00:23:28Yeah. Then the key thing is that you've gone from having, seeps onshore, which are relatively easy to walk up to and see, but hard to find, to seeps offshore, which are impossible to walk up to or very difficult. You need a submersible to do it. But because of this, chemosynthetic communities that build up around it and our knowledge of that and now gives us something to look for geophysically. So we can apply some geophysics, which we'll get on to talk about next in terms of the multibeam, to actually hunt for these things in a very cost effective way and a very fast manner. So we can cover, as Dan said, right at the start, hundreds of thousands of square kilometers, even over a million now, in a cost effective, timely manner and identify these seeps from the sea surface.Dan:00:24:15Now fishermen, know where seeps are because all of this limestone provides places for fish to leave their larva where they might live, they call them refugia. It's a, it's a place where, you know, lots of little fish and where you have lots of little fish, you have lots of big fish. And since we're also increasing this primary productivity, you get, you get profusions of fish around seep communities. So we've found authigenic carbonate in the front yards of fishermen in areas where that we've gone to study seeps. And if you chip a little bit off it, you can go and analyze it in the lab or if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to tell you their spots. And that involves convincing them that you're not going to steal their spots and you're not gonna tell everybody where their spots are. But if you go into a frontier area, if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to talk to you, you might have some ideas of where to go look for them.Dan:00:25:14So it kind of, one other point that I wanted to make here about seeps is, remember I talked about how seep organism creates kind of a larva, which is dormant and it's kind of flowing through the world's ocean, looking for a seep community, doing some back of the envelope calculations. If, if a larva can survive for about a month. Okay. And you have a one knot current that larva can move about 1300 kilometers in a month, which is about the length of the island of Java. And it might be about the length of the state of California. So if you think now, so if you think about that, then all you need is a seep community somewhere to be sending out larva. Most of which of course never gonna survive. And then if we get a seep somewhere else, the odds are that there's going to be a larva bouncing along the sea floor that is going to see that and start growing.Dan:00:26:08So for us as explorationists as the, the important thing is if there's a seep, there's a pretty good chance that, that a seep community will start to form, if the seepage lasts long enough, it will form a community depending, you know, might be large, might be medium size, but it changes the acoustic properties of the sea floor. Okay, so that, remember we're going to talk about seeps what they, what, what's a seep and that is how it's related to hydrocarbon seepage out of the or natural gas oil, you know, reduced fluids. What we were going to talk about, and now we're going to talk about how offshore we use this technology called multibeam to go and find them. Okay.Dan:00:26:51So back in, back in the Cold War, the air force came up with a tool to map the former Soviet Union called synthetic aperture radar. And when the navy saw the air forces maps, they said, we want a map of the sea floor. And at the time, you know, if you remember your World War II movies, the submarine sends out a Ping, somebody listening on, their, on their headphones and and the ping comes back and the amount of time that it took for the ping to go out and the ping come back is how deep the water is. If you know the speed of sound in water. But that's, that's just one point directly beneath you, that's not good enough to get a detailed map of the sea floor. So, driven by these cold war needs, the navy contracted a company called general instruments to develop a tool to map the sea floor and they develop what's called SASS, the sonar array sounding system, which we now call multibeam.Dan:00:27:49In the 1960s, it was unveiled to the world during a set of, submersible dives to the mid Ocean Ridge, I believe in 1975 as part of the famous project. And the geoscientist looked at that map and it was a contour map of the mid ocean region. They said, holy smokes, what's that? Where'd that come from? And the navy said, well, we kind of developed a new technology and it was first commercialized in 1977 the same year hot smokers were discovered on the world's oceans. And it has been continuously developed since then. And in about the 1990s, it got resolute enough for, for us to take this, this kind of seeps, seep hunting science and take it offshore. So until then, 1980s, we were deploying submersibles. We were going down and looking at them. We had very crude maps. We had some side scan shows, a little bit about, the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Dan:00:28:46But it wasn't until the mid 1990s that we realized that with these tools, these sea floor mapping tools that had acoustic, analyzing techniques that we could identify areas that were harder and rougher and had a different shape, that allowed us to start, instead of just driving around and, and, we're finding one by, by luck or chance actually saying, Huh, there's a, there's an interesting acoustic signature over there. Let's go take a look at it. And deploying submersibles and ROVs and realizing that yes, we had tools that could, be used to, to map the sea floor and identify seeps and driven by their own interests. The Navy, the US navy was very interested in these and, was, was a early, early funder of seep science and they've continued with it as well as academic institutions around the world that got very interested in seep communities.Dan:00:29:45And in fact, NASA, NASA is really interested in seep communities because they're chemically based life forms in what are basically extreme environments. And so if NASA wants to figure out what life is going to look like on a different planet, or a different moon on it, or surrounding a different planet that doesn't have an oxygen atmosphere, here's a, a laboratory on earth that, that they can use. So NASA has been funding seep science as well.Dan:00:30:11So multibeam what is it and how does it apply to, to, to hunting seeps. So multibeam, which is this technology that was developed by and funded by the navy in the 1960s and commercialized in the 70s uses two acoustic arrays of transducers. one array is mounted parallel to the length of a ship. And when you fire off all those transducers, it sends out a ping. And the longer the array is, the narrower that beam is. That's how antennas work. So that that long array sends out a ping, which is narrow along track and a shape, kind of like a saucer. So if you can imagine two dinner plates put together, that's what this, ping of energy looks like. And that's what we call the transmit beam. So then if you listen to the sea floor with an array that's perpendicular to the transmitter ray, we are now listening to an area that's, that's narrow across track. Okay. And it's long elongate a long track. So we've got this narrow transmit beam in one direction that's, that's now perpendicular to the ship. And we've got a narrow receive beam that's parallel to the ship and where those two intersect is what we call a beam. And so with, with lots of different, transducers mounted, perpendicular to the ship, we can listen from all the way out to the port about 65 degrees down below the ship and all the way over to starboard, again, about 65 degrees. And we have lots of beams.Dan:00:31:51So right now the system that we're using, on our project has 455 beams across track. So every time we send out a ping, we ensonify the sea floor on, on these 455 beams. And as we go along, we send out another ping and another ping. And we're basically, we're painting the sea floor. It's, it's like mowing the lawn with a big lawn mower or using a Zamboni to drive around an ice rink. You can just think of it as as a ship goes along. We are ensonifying and listening to a wide patch of sea floor and we typically map, about a five kilometer, about a three mile, a wide swath, and we send out a ping every six or 10 seconds. Depends how, you know, depends on the water depth. And so we're able to map 1000 or 2000 square kilometers a day with this technique. This multibeam technique.Duncan:00:32:48Since a lot of our podcast listeners might be familiar with seismic is that's probably the biggest percentage of the, the geophysical industry. This is not too different. It's an acoustic based technique. I guess the main difference is are we live working in a different, frequency bandwidth. And also that we have both the receiver and the transmitter both mounted on the same boat. So we're not dealing with a streamer out the back of a boat. we have transmitter and receiver are both whole mounted. But after that it's all pretty similar to seismic. We go backwards and forwards, either in 2D lines or in a, in a 3D grid and we build up a picture. Now because of the frequencies we're working with, we don't penetrate very deep into the sea floor. but as, as we mentioned, we're interested in seeing those seep communities on the sea floor. So that's why we this, this is the perfect technology for, for that application.Erica:00:33:40Oh, can you talk a little bit about the post-processing that's involved with multibeam?Dan:00:33:44Well, let me- Erica, Great question. Let me, come back to that later cause I want to pay, I want to pick up on what Duncan talked about in and add one very important wrinkle. So first of all, absolutely correct, the frequencies are different. In seismic, we're down in the hertz to tens of Hertz and in Multibeam we're in the tens of kilohertz and in very shallow water, maybe even over higher than a hundred kilohertz. In seismic, we have air guns that send that radiate out energy. And we, we designed the arrays so that we get most of the energy in the direction that we're looking with multi beam. We have a narrow, remember it's one degree wide in here. If you got kids, see if anybody still has a protractor anymore, grab a protractor and look at how wide one degree is. It's very narrow.Duncan:00:34:39There's probably an iPhone app for that. (Laughter) see what one used to look like.Dan:00:34:43But with, with seismic, the air guns sends out energy and we listened to the reflected energy out on the streamer back behind the ship or on a node somewhere else. It's reflected energy. With multibeam, the energy goes out and it interacts with the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Most of it gets reflected away and we don't, we don't, hear that it, but some of it actually comes back in the same direction that the sound went out and we call that backscatter. So backscatter energy comes back to you and it's that backscatter that, can increase when we have hard and rough material either on the sea floor or buried below the sea floor. So the way that we process it is since we know the time of length, the time of path on how long it took to get out, hit the sea floor and come back, or you can correct for path lengths, energy radiates outward and spherical patterns. So we correct for spherical spreading. we know the angle that it hit the sea floor, so we correct for angle of ensonification. And then the next and most important things are where was the ship, when the pulse went out? And where is the ship when the pulse comes back, including what's the orientation of the ship? So we need to know the location, the position of the ship in X, Y, and Z to centimeters. And we need to know the orientation of the ship to tenths of a degree or better on both the transmit and the receive. But the key thing is, if we know that path length in the spherical spreading and we correct for all of that and we get a response that's much greater than we expected, we get higher backscatter energy and it's, it's those clams and tube worms authigenic carbonate gas hydrate that can increase the hardness and the roughness of the sea floor that kicked back the backscatter energy.Dan:00:36:46Okay. Now what happens if the oil and gas, or the reduced fluids if they shut off? Well, I'm sorry to say for the clams and the tube worms that they will eventually die. The bacteria will still live at that redox boundary as it settles back below the sediment. And then when we pile some sediment on top of that dead seep community, it's still there. The shells are there, the carbonate's still there. So with the, with multibeam that the frequencies, we use 12 and 30 kilohertz penetrate between two, three 10 meters or so into the sediment. So if you shut off the seepage and bury that seep community, they're still there. And if we can sample that below that redox boundary at that location, chances are we're going to get a oil or gas in, in our sample. And in fact, we encounter live seep communities very, very, very, very rarely, you know, kind of one in a thousand.Dan:00:37:50But, we, we encounter seep fauna down in our sample cores, which we'll talk about later, much more frequently. And, and we, we find hydrocarbons, we are very successful at finding hydrocarbons. And the key thing is we're using seep science to go look in, in basins or extend outward from basins in areas where there may be no known oil or gas production. And that's why the seeps are useful. So multibeam unlike a seismic, we got to collect the data, then we got it and you to do all sorts of processing and it takes a while to, to crank the computers and whatnot. Multibeam we can, we can look at it as it comes in and we can see the backscatter strength. We can see what the swath that it's mapping every ping, every six seconds. And it takes about, it takes less than a day to process a days worth of multibeam.Dan:00:38:47So when our ships are out there working every morning, when we get the daily report from the ship, we see another thousand or 2000 square kilometers of data that were mapped just the previous day. So it's for, those who can't wait, it's really satisfying. But for those of us who are trying to accelerate projects, it's great because when the data come off the ship, they're already processed. We can start picking targets and we can be out there, you know, in weeks sampling. So that's so multibeam it's, it's bathymetry, it's backscatter, but we're also imaging the water column. So if there's, a gas plume, coming out of the sea floor, naturally we can see that gas plume and, so that we can see the water column. We can see the sea floor or the bathymetry, and the backscatter. Erica, you asked, you know, about the processing and I talked about how we have to know the position and the orientation, of the ship, that means that we have to survey in using a laser theodolight.Dan:00:39:54We have to survey in every component of the system on the ship to, you know, fractions of a millimeter. And we drive the surveyors nuts because we are, we are more demanding than the, the BMW plant in South Carolina. And they point that out to us every time. Yes, we're more demanding. But if they have a problem with, with a robot in the BMW plant, they can go out and survey it again, once we put this ship in the water, I can't go survey the array that's now welded to the bottom of the ship. It's there. And so that's why we make them do three replicate surveys and do loop ties and convince us that we've got incredibly accurate and precise system. So that's when we survey the ship. We use, well we go back and we go and we check their math and we make sure all the numbers are entered into the system correctly.Dan:00:40:46We, measure the water column every day so that we have the best velocity data that we use to correct the, that position. We measure the salinity in the water column because it affects how energy is absorbed. It's called the absorption coefficient. We measure the acoustic properties of the ship. So we understand maybe we need to turn off the starboard side pump in order to get better multibeam data. And we evaluate every component of the ship. Something. Sometimes they'll have, you know, the, the waste unit was, was mounted onto the, onto the deck of the ship and nobody thought about putting a rubber bushing between that unit and the hall to isolate the sound. And it just so happens it's at 12 kilohertz. So it swamps your acoustic energy or degrades our data quality because it's all about data quality so that we can find these small, interesting high backscatter targets. We polish the hull. We send divers down every eight weeks or 12 weeks or 16 weeks because you get biofouling you get, you get these barnacles growing in a barnacle in between your acoustic array in the sea floor is going to affect the data. So we send divers down to go scrape the hull and scraped the prop.Duncan:00:42:05So it's probably worth mentioning that this is the same type of multibeam or multibeam data is the same data that is used in other parts of the oil and gas industry as well. So I mean, any pipeline that's ever been laid in the last few decades has had a multibeam survey before it. Any bit of marine infrastructure that an oil and gas company wants to put in the Gulf of Mexico. Certainly you have to have a multibeam survey ahead of time. what's different here is that we're, we're trying to cover big areas and we're trying to get a very specific resolution. So maybe it's worth talking a bit about that. Dan what we're actually trying to achieve in terms of the resolution to actually find seeps.Dan:00:42:42You got it. So we, we can, we can control the resolution because we can control how wide a swath we go and how fast we go. So, if you're really interested in, if you want to do a site survey and you want to get incredibly detailed data of a three kilometer by three kilometer square, you could deploy an autonomous underwater vehicle or an ROV and get very, very, very resolute, like smaller than half a meter of bin size. for what we do, where our goal is exploration, the trade off is between, do I want more resolute data or do I want more data and it that that is a tradeoff and it's something that we struggle with. And we think that the sweet spot is mapping that five kilometers swath and three miles wide, swath at about oh eight to 10 knots. So let's say about 16 kilometers an hour.Dan:00:43:40That gets us a thousand to 2000 square kilometers a day. And by acquiring data in that manner, we get a 15 meter bathymetric bin independent of water depth and our backscatter since we subsample that bathymetric bin for the backscatter, we can get a five meter backscatter pixel. So now if I have four, if I have four adjacent pixels, you know, shaped like a square, that's a 10 meter by 10 meter spot on the sea floor, it's slightly larger than this room. We could, you could see that now you might need a couple of more to be larger than that. So to have a target actually stand out, and that's about how accurate our sampling is with the core barrel. So, the long answer to your question is about a 15 meter bathymetric bin and a five meter backscatter pixel is what we're currently doing for our exploration work.Dan:00:44:32Now we pay attention to what's going on in the navigation and the positioning world because it affects our data quality. So the higher the quality of, of our navigation, the higher the quality of our data on the sea floor. So about a decade ago, the world's airlines asked if they could fly their airplanes closer together and the FAA responded and said, not unless you improve GPS and so sponsored by the world's airlines. They set up ground stations all in, in the, in the most heavily traveled parts of the world that improve the GPS signal by having an independent orbital corrections. What that means is for us working off shore, we take advantage of it. It's called wide area augmentation. And, using this system, which is now it's a, it's add on for a GPS receiver, we're able to get six centimeter accuracy of a ship that's out there in the ocean that surveying.Dan:00:45:27So that's six centimeters. What's that? About two and a half inches. And for those of us who grew up with low ran and very, you know, where you were lucky if you knew where you were to within, you know, a quarter of a mile. it's, it's just astonishing to me that this box can produce data of that quality, but that flows through to the quality of the data that we get on our surveys, which flows through to our ability to find targets. So I think, I told you about sub sampling, the bathymetry for backscatter and I've told, I told you about the water column and we've talked about the resolution. I think we've, we've pretty much hit what multibeam is. It's, it's a real time near real time acquisition, high frequency narrow beam. We image the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Okay and we use that to find anomalous backscatter targets.Duncan:00:46:20Well, let's talk about the water column a little bit more done because I know we've published some pictures and images from our surveys. Showing the water column anomalies. The backscatter data, in the water column itself can actually help us find seeps. The right mixture of oil and gas coming out of this, an active seep and migrating up through the water column can actually be picked up on these multibeam data also. So that's, a real direct hit that you've got to see and that it's actually still producing oil today,Dan:00:46:53Right, so when, when gas and oil leak out of the sea floor, the gas bubble begins to expand as it comes up, just like a would in a, in a carbonated beverage because there's less pressure. So that gap, that bubble is expanding. If there's oil present, the oil coats the outside of the bubble and actually protects it from dissolving into the water column. And so the presence of gas with a little bit of oil leaking out of the sea floor creates these bubbles that, are big enough to see with these 12 and 30 kilohertz systems. And so when we see a plume coming out of the sea floor, that's natural, a seepage of gas, possibly with a little bit of oil and it provides a great target for us to go and hit. Now those seeps are flowing into the water column and the water column has currents and the currents aren't the same from one day to the next and one week to the next.Dan:00:47:47So if we image a seep a couple of different times, one day it will be flowing in one direction and the next time we see it flowing in a different direction. The area in common between the two is pointing us toward the origin point on the sea floor. And that's what we're going to target. And if you, if you hunt around, look for NOAA studies of, of the US Gulf of Mexico, over Mississippi Canyon near where the deep water horizon, went down because there are, the, NOAA has published, images of the gas seeps in that area where there are natural oil and gas seeps leaking, leaking other, the sea floor. And these natural seeps occur all over the world. Okay? And they're bringing oil and gas into the water column. But remember, nature has basically provided, the cleanup tool, which is the bacteria. So where oil and gas settle onto the sea floor, there are bacteria that will consume it. You don't want a lot of it in one place, cause then then you've got, you know, a real environmental disaster. But natural oil and gas seepage goes hand in hand with natural seep consuming organisms that metabolize these fluids. So a multi beam seeps backscatter okay. That I think we've, we've talked about what the target looks like. Let's talk about how we go in and sample it.Duncan:00:49:12Yeah, no, I think that's the real key thing. Particularly here in the Gulf of Mexico. I mean we talked at the start about how I'm using seeps can tell you whether a basin has hydrocarbons in it or not. Clearly we're decades past the point of knowing whether there's oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico. So even in the deep water gulf of Mexico, especially here in the US side, we know that there's oil and gas, so that information is long gone. We don't, we don't need an update on that anymore. What we need to know is information about the type of oil, the age of the oil, the deep positional environment that the oil is deposited in. And if we can actually get a sample from these seeps, then that's the sort of information that modern geochemistry can start to pull out for us.Dan:00:49:57we've sat in the same meetings where the, the potential client companies have said, why are you, why are you gonna map the deepest part of the Gulf of Mexico? There's no oil out there. And lo and behold, we found anomalous backscatter targets on a diapirs, which are areas, mounds out in the deepest parts of the Gulf of Mexico. And lo and behold, if you, if you look at the data, know that that statement was incorrect. There is oil and gas out there in other parts of the world. We've had companies say, oh, this part's all oil and this part's gas. Well, how do you know that? Well, because we've drilled for oil out here and we don't think there's any oil. Once you get out there and you don't know, you don't know what you don't know until you go map it and sample it and then you come back, you put the data on their desk and they go, huh, hey, we were wrong man. I guess there's oil out there. And, and in other parts of the world where you know, we've done all our exploration close to land or in shallow water, we go out into the deepest part and nobody's ever drilled a well out there. So, you use the seep science to go to basically fill that in.Dan:00:51:09So in order to make money exploring for oil, you had to have organic matter. Originally it had to be, it had to be buried and cooked. Okay. So you needed temperature and pressure. You need time takes time to do that, then it needs to migrate. Okay. With the exception of unconventionals, we're not gonna talk about unconventional today with the exception of unconventionals, the hydrocarbons have to migrate, so they're concentrated so that you can go drill them and recover them. And they need to be in a reservoir.Dan:00:51:41And it has to be sealed. And so when we find a seep and all of that goes into what we talk about in oil exploration as the risk equation, like what's the probability of success? If you don't know whether you have a migration, you have maximum uncertainty and that flows through into your, into your risk. Well, if we find a seep, remember we've proven that there was organic matter. We've proven that it was buried and cooked for the right amount of time to create oil and gas and that it's migrated. We can't tell you anything about reservoir or seal or timing, but we can, we can materially impact the risk equation by finding a seep. Okay. So right before you drill a well, wouldn't you like to know whether or not there's oil or gas in the neighborhood? Cause a well can be a can be $100 million risk.Dan:00:52:34Okay. Usually you wouldn't, wouldn't you like to know? So remember when we started looking at seeps, 1977 for the hot vents 85 for the cold vents, we used human beings in a submersible. Later we shifted to using robotic submersibles where a human being sit on a ship in a control room, operate the ROV with joysticks, and you watch the videos come through. Well, those are great, but they're really expensive and you can't look at much sea floor on any given day because you're limited to how fast you can move across the sea floor and how much you can look at. So if we surveyed 2000 square kilometers in a day, we want to be able to evaluate that in less than 20 years. We want to be able to evaluate that in, you know, in a similar length of time, a day or two. So what we've done is we've shifted toward using what we, what's called a piston core, which, which is a six meter long, 20 foot long tube with about a thousand kilos on a 2,000 pounds.Dan:00:53:37And we lower it through the sea floor, operating it with a winch from a ship. And by putting a navigation beacon on that core, we can track it through the water column in real time. And if we have this high backscatter target on the sea floor, we can lower it to the water column. Once we're about fit and we're within 50 meters, 150 feet of the sea floor, we can see whether we're on target and then we let it go. When the pist- when the, it has a trigger weight on it, you can look this up, how to, how do piston cores work, that the core, lets go and it free falls that last little bit and it penetrates the sea floor. You haul it back to the surface. Now if it had gas hydrate in it, if it has oil in it, if it has gas in it, you can see it right away. when you pull the clear liner out of the core, and there it is, you know, whether or not you've got success, for most cores, there's no visual evidence of hydrocarbons that we sample that core tube, three different samples. One of them, we take a sample into what we call a gas can and seal that. And then we put a couple of hockey puck size chunks of sediment into Ziploc bags and everything goes into the freezer. And you ship that back, from the next port call. And about a month later you get a spreadsheet in your email, that says, oh, guess what you found methane, ethane, propane, butane, and Pentane. And look at this, you've got enough fluorescents that this is a guaranteed oil hit. So, again, you think about the time we map a couple thousand square kilometers a day.Dan:00:55:18We mapped for a month, we'll look the data for a month. We go out and core for a couple of weeks and a month later the Geochemistry starts flowing in. So real quick, multibeam as we've, as we've discussed as a way to get a detailed map of the sea floor, both the shape of it and the hardest roughness, acoustic properties. So any company laying a fiber optic cable across the world's oceans is acquiring multibeam data. Any, municipality that's worried about how deep their ports are and whether there's enough space for the ships to come in, is acquiring multibeam data. The corps of engineers who pays companies to dredge sand in the Mississippi River has to have a before and after multibeam a map, when MH370 went down and needed to be hunted for before they deployed the real high resolution tools. They needed a map of the sea floor and that was a part of the ocean that has never been mapped in detail before.Dan:00:56:23So most of the world's oceans have net have never been mapped in the detail that we're mapping them. We're using the tool to go hunt seeps. But there are all sorts of other uses of, of that multi beam technology. So, what are we looking for when we, when we, when we're looking for seeps, you know, what have, where have people found oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor? What does it look like? Or what are the targets? Well, if the gas burps out of the sea floor, it creates a pockmark. And those are targets, in many parts of the world, the Apennines of Italy, Azerbaijan, there are what we call mud volcanoes, where over pressured mud from deep down in the earth is kind of spewing out gently, slowly and continuously at the earth's surface. And lo and behold, it's bringing up oil and gas along with it. So mud volcanoes are known, oil and gas seeps onshore. Of course we're going to use them, offshore. Any place where we have a fault, you can create fracture permeability that might let oil and gas up. Faults can also seal, but a fault would be a good target, an anticline, a big fold that has a, can have seeps coming out of the crest of, it's similar to the seeps that were discovered early in late 18 hundreds. And in, in the USA, we can have areas where we have oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor, but it's not enough to change the shape of the sea floor. So we get high backscatter but no relief. Those, those are targets. So when we go out and we sample potential seep targets, we don't focus on only one type of target because that might only tell you one thing.Dan:00:58:04So we spread our, our targets around on different target types and we'll spread our targets around an area. Even if we, if we have more targets in one area than another area, we will spread our targets all the way around. Because the one thing that we've learned in decades of seep hunting is we're not as smart as we think we are. Nature always throws a curve ball. And you should, you should not think that you knew, know everything before you go into an area to analyze it because you might, you probably will find something that's, that startles you. And you know, as someone who's been looking at seeps since 1986, I continue to find things that we've never seen before. like our recent projects in the Gulf of Mexico, we found two target types that we've never seen before. The nearest analog on earth, on the surface is called a Pingo, which is when ice forms these really weird mountains up in the Arctic. And the one thing I can guarantee you that's not on the bottom of the world's ocean is an ice mound similar to what's forming the Arctic. But, but it had that shape. So we went and analyzed it and lo and behold, it told us something about the hydrocarbon system.Dan:00:59:12So those are all different types of target types so that the core comes back, we send it to the lab, we get first the very, what call the screening geochemistry, which is a light gases, methane through Pentane. We look at how fluorescent it is, cause that'll tell you whether or not you, you have a chance of of having a big oil hit. And we also look at what's called the chromatogram, which is a gas chromatography. And that tells us between about C15 and C36 C being the carbon length. So the, all your alkanes. And by looking at a Chromatogram, a trained professional will look that and say, oh, that's biodegraded oil. Or, oh, that's really fresh oil cause really fresh oil. All the, alkane peaks get smaller as they get bigger. So it has a very, very distinctive shape. Or they can look at it and they can tell you, you can, you can figure out the depositional environment. You can figure out whether the organic matter came from a lake, lacustrine, or maybe it's marine algal. We can say something about the age of it because flowering plants didn't evolve on earth till about the end of the age of dinosaurs. So at the end of the cretaceous, we got flowering plants. And so flowering plants create a molecule called oleanane. And so if there's no oleanane in the oil, that oil is older than cretaceous. So now we're telling something about a depositional environment.Dan:01:00:39We're saying something about the age, we can say the, the geochemist can say something about the maturity of the oil by looking at the geochemistry data. So all of this information, is now expanding what we know about what's in the subsurface and everything we know about seepage is that it is episodic in time. And it is distributed on earth's surface, not in kind of a random scattered, fashion. You get seepage above above a mud mud volcano, but for the surrounding hundred square kilometers around this mud volcano, we don't find any seep targets. Okay. So, our philosophy is that in order to find, in order to analyze the seats, we have to go find where we've got the highest probability of seepage and leakage. And that's where we target. So if you went out and just dropped a random grid over an area, you have a very, very low chance of hitting a concentrated site of seepage. And so, our hit rate, our success rate is, is high because we're using these biological and chemical indicators of seepage to help us guide where we sample. We have very precisely located sampling instruments this core with this acoustic beacon on it. And so we have, we have a very, very high success rates. And when we get hydrocarbons, we get enough hydrocarbons that we can do all of this advanced geochemistry on it.Duncan:01:02:13That's a good point Dan, even with- even without just doing a random grid of coring, piston coring has been done in the the US Gulf of Mexico for a long time now. And using seismic information, to target it. So like you say, looking for the faults and the anticlines and those type of features and very shallow anomalies on the seismic data. Even even guiding it with that information, typically a, a 5% hit rate might be expected. So you take two or 300 cores you know, you're going to get maybe 5%-10% hit rate, where you can actually look at the oils, and the geochemistry from the samples that you get. Using the multibeam, we were more like a 50 to 60% hit rate. And that's even with like Dan said, we're targeting some features where we know we're not going to find oil. so we could probably do even better than that if we, if we really focused in on finding oil. But obviously we're trying to assemble all the different types of seeps.Dan:01:03:11One of the things that we're asked and that we've heard from managers since we started working in the oil industry is what is this sea floor seep tell me about what's in my reservoir. And there's only, there have been very few, what we, what we call the holy grail studies published where a company has published the geochemistry at the reservoir level and the geochemistry on a seep that they can tie to that reservoir in the Gulf of Mexico. We collected dozens of seeps that can be tied to the same basin where there is known production. So in that Gulf of Mexico Dataset, a company that purchased that data and who had access to the reservoir oils could finally have a sufficient number of correlations that they could answer that question. What is the sea floor seep? Tell me about the reservoir. Because once you're comfortable in the Gulf of Mexico, that that seep is really telling you what's down in your reservoir.Dan:01:04:08Now you go into other parts of the world where you don't know what's in the reservoir before you drill and you find a good, a fresh seep with fresh oil right at the sea floor. Now you're confident that when you go down into the reservoir that you're going to find something, something similar. So let me talk a little bit about other things that you can do with these cores. And I'll start by kind of looking at these mud volcanoes. So this mud volcano, it had over pressured mud at depth. It came up to the surface of the earth and as it came up, it grabbed wall rock on its way up. So by analyzing a mud volcano, if we then go look at, say the microfossils, in all the class in a mud volcano, we can tell you about the age of the rocks that mud volcano came through without ever drilling a well.Dan:01:04:54So you can look at, at the, at the vitrinite reflectance, you can look at the maturity of the, of these wall rocks that are brought to you on the surface. You can look at heavy minerals. And when we go out and we do field geology, you know, you remember you're a geologist has a rock pick they and they go, the geologist goes up to the cliff and, and she or he chips a rock out and they take it back to lab and take a look at it. And that's how they tell something about what's in the outcrop. Well, it's hard to do field geology on the bottom of the ocean using a multibeam map and - acoustically guided core. We can now go and do field work on the, on the ocean floor and expand our knowledge of what's going on in a field area.Duncan:01:05:42So maybe it's worth talking a bit Dan about how we're jointly using these technologies or this group of technologies, at TGS, to put together projects. So the, I think generally the approach has been to look at, basin wide study areas. So we're not just carving off little blocks and doing, one of these, one of these projects over, over a particular block. We'll take on the whole Gulf of Mexico. So we, we broke it up into two. We looked at the Mexico side and the US side. But in total, I think it was nearly a million square kilometers that we covered and, about 1500 cores that I think we took, so we were putting these packages together in different basins all over the world, whether they're in mature basins like the Gulf of Mexico or frontier areas like places we're working in West Africa at the moment. But I think we're, we're looking to put more and more of these projects together. I think the technology applies to lots of different parts of the world. Both this side of the Atlantic and the eastern side of the Atlantic as well.Dan:01:06:44So since 2014, five years, we've mapped, we as in One and TGS have mapped, I believe over 1,250,000 square kilometers. We've acquired over 2000 cores. Oh. We also measure heat flow. We can use - is how the earth is shedding heat. And it's concentrated in some areas in, and you want to know heat flow if you're looking for oil, cause you got to know how much your organic matter has been cooked. So we've, we've collected thousands of cores, at dramatic success rates and we've used them. We've used these projects in areas of known hydrocarbon production, like the shallow water Gulf of Mexico, but we've, we've extended out into areas of completely unknown hydrocarbon production, the deep water Gulf of Mexico, the east coast of Mexico over in the Caribbean. We're looking at northwest Africa, Senegal, The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, and the area, that's a jointly operated AGC. And we're looking at other frontier areas where we can apply this to this technology in concert with traditional tools, multichannel, seismic, gravity and magnetics to help, our clients get a better feel for the hydrocarbon prospectivity. You've got to have the seismic cause you've got to see what the subsurface looks like. But the, the multibeam which leads to seep targets, which leads ultimately to the geochemistry is what then affects the risk going forward into a basin.Duncan:01:08:20That's a good point, Dan. We don't see this as a technology that replaces seismic or gravity or magnetics or anything else, but it's another piece in the puzzle. And it's a very complimentary piece as well.Dan:01:08:31It is. And any areas you could argue that probably the best places to go look are where, your colleagues and other companies have said, oh, there's no oil there. Well, how do you know? Well, we don't think there's oil because we don't think there was a organic matter or we don't think that it was cooked enough. Well, you don't know until you go there and you find, so if you found one seep in that field area that had live oil and gas in it, you would know that that premise was incorrect. And now you have a competitive edge, you have knowledge that others don't and that can, that can affect your exploration, strategy in your portfolio. we haven't talked about cost. Multi beam is arguably one of the least expensive tools per square kilometer in the geophysical toolkit. Just because we don't need chase boats. We're not towing the streamer, we're going 10 knots. We're covering a couple of thousand square kilometers a day. So it's, it's, it's a tool that's useful in frontier exploration. It is complimentary to seismic, and it's a tool that, that you can use to guide where you want to spend money and how much money if you, if we survey a huge area and let's say half of it has no evidence of oil and gas and half of it has excellent hydrocarbon seeps, both oil and gas. I would argue that as a company you might want to spend less money on the first and more money on the second. You migh

In this episode of Beneath the Subsurface we introduce our Geoscience and Data & Analytics intern teams for our summer internship program. Erica kicks off the episode with Jason and Sri talking about how the programs have come about and changed overtime here at TGS, how they select and recruit for the program, and the scope of the projects that the internships tackle this summer. Erica then spends time with both teams of interns discussing the experience in the program, what they’ve learned, and everything they’ll be taking away and applying back to their studies and upcoming careers. TABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro00:50 - Team Leader Segment with Jason and Sri01:09 - The Geoscience Internship Program04:42 - The Data & Analytics Internship Program07:29 - Advice for Program Applicants11:54 - Data & Analytics Intern Team Introductions13:32 - The D&A Summer Projects15:18 - Lessons Learned Pt. 117:20 - The TGS Internship Experience Pt. 120:24 - Future Careers21:41 - Advice for Future Interns & Reasons to Apply Pt. 124:34 - Valuable Take Aways Pt. 126:01 - Geoscience Intern Team Introductions28:36 - The Geoscience Summer Projects31:33 - Lessons Learned Pt. 233:14 - The TGS Internship Experience Pt. 234:12 - Advice for Future Interns & Reasons to Apply Pt. 239:28 - Valuable Take Aways Pt. 2EXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODEARLASSALT NET TGS DATA LIBRARYEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of geoscience and technology. From the Software Development Department here at TGS, I'm your host, Erica Conedera. This time around, we'll be chatting with our newest batch of intrepid students in TGS' dynamic and immersive internship program. As you will hear, they are a diverse group of future innovators from around the world. They bring with them a wide range of skills and interests and work together to collaborate on exciting real world projects. We'll start our conversation today with a quick introduction from the leaders of our internship program. I'm here with Sri Kainkarayam, the data science lead and Jason Kegel with the geoscience team who heads up the geoscience intern program. And we're going to talk a little bit about the internship programs. Jason, how has this program changed in the last five years?Jason Kegel:01:09When we first started the program, I want to say 2013, 2014, it was out of the Calgary office in Canada. The interns there were mainly from some of our Calgary schools nearby. And then it started to grow 2014, 2015 to include some of our Texas schools, UT, Baylor, University of Houston. As it's grown, we've decided to add more projects and more sort of interesting work to the projects. We've also been able to bring on some of our original interns into roles within the company. So over the last five years, I'd say the biggest thing that's grown is the, the number of interns. So in Calgary, when this first started we had one intern and then that same intern came back a second year and we brought another one on. And then we got one in Houston. And then as that grew, we had a couple in Houston and a couple in Calgary.Jason: 02:09And then the past couple of years we've had four each year. So we had four last year and four this year. So we've really been able to sort of guide new projects around that to where we can really include their schoolwork and what they're doing in their university work with what we're doing here at TGS and hopefully build a sort of cohesive project for them to work on. And that's sort of the struggle with a lot of internship projects that we've done over the past years is to incorporate what they want to do as students and as interns and as their career grows, with what we'd like to see them do and encourage them to do within TGS.Erica:02:49Does that go into the consideration of which interns you end up picking, what their specialties are or what they're looking to do with what you need?Jason:02:58No, not necessarily, a lot of the times the interns, so for example, last year we were working very closely with a couple of schools that we wanted to bring data into. So some of our production data our Longbow group into with the University of Lafayette. So we were working really closely with a few professors out of that school and a few professors with UH. So we had recommendations from the professors themselves with students that they thought might work nicely with us with - in terms of their knowledge of data already and their knowledge of well log use and seismic, so they can kind of jump in running without having to learn too much in the beginning, without too much of a learning curve. So in aspects of that, and that's, that's more that we look for. So the, the professors we're working with, along with how long it will take them to, to get up and running with things.Jason:03:51Our current group of students is sort of a more advanced set of students who are working on their PhDs or in their later years of their master's degrees. So they've already seen a lot of these areas and worked with a lot of the data. So we do look for sort of more advanced students now, whereas when we first started the program, we were, we were happy to get anybody, some people that were not sure if they were going to be geoscientists, but you know, we're in the geoscience program with their bachelor's and that was okay too. I think we still got a lot out of having them here, working with us. but as we've grown, we've been putting them on more and more advanced projects and they've really been able to help out.Erica:04:29Cool, sounds like they've added a lot of value.Jason:04:30They definitely do. And it's nice to have sort of fresh faces around in the summertime and, and it really, really fills in for everybody that goes on vacation in the summer.Erica:04:39(Laughter) Right? Awesome.Jason:04:39The office doesn't seem so empty.Erica:04:42Awesome. So for the data analytics team, the internship program is new. I think this is your first batch of interns, correct Sri?Sri Kainkaryam:04:57Yes. So the data science team started sometime around November, 2017 so this is, although this has been our second summer, this is our first batch of interns that are projects, both, trying to test out novel algorithms, novel approaches, also try and apply ideas from high performance computing to building workflows, and also try and build sort of, user interfaces or ability to, deploy these for various users. So, there are broadly three buckets in which these projects fall into. And, it's an, it's, it was an interesting time looking for an intern because data science as, as a domain is, sits at the intersection of sort of three, broadly non intersecting sets, right? So geoscience, computing as well as machine learning or deep learning and folks having adequate background in all three of them, they sort of fit the -the mold of a good intern.Sri:06:02So it was in some sense was a little hard initially to try and find an intern. So I think we have a talented group of interns working on two of the broad offerings that we have right now. One of them is Salt Net, that is trying to interpret salt bodies from seismic images, and one is called ARLAS that is curve completion and aspects of petrophysics that can be done on, on wells that are available in an entire basin. So, it's, it's been four weeks into the internship program and the interns, the interns are pretty smart. They're motivated and it's been a fun experience so far.Erica:06:43Is it a 12 week program in total?Sri:06:46It's around a 12 week program. Some of them I think are here for a little longer than that. So, one of them is, trying to build a tensorflow port of our salt network flow because tensorflow community comes with a bunch of advantages such as, like, ability to deploy, it also comes with a JavaScript library called tensorflow JS that that makes it easy to do machine learning in the browser. So we want to make use of that infrastructure and the community built infrastructure. And that's one of the reasons why, one of the interns is spending time trying to build, trying to put our workflow in onto tensorflow.Erica:07:29So if you guys had some advice to give to people looking to get into the internship program, would you have anything you'd want to let them know?Sri:07:37So from the perspective of data science internships, given that how fast the field is moving, especially for students looking for data science internships in, in the space of oil and gas, the first and foremost thing is having an ability to understand various aspects, various various sources of data or aspects of data in the upstream domain. Because, just to give you an example, somebody who's worked on deep learning of natural images throughout, the moment you try and apply similar algorithms onto seismic images, it's a completely different domain. So, what are the, what are some of the assumptions that you can make? And that's where having a strong domain background really helps.Sri:08:30And I think the second thing that is, that's becoming very important in the marketplace right now is, is with, with platforms like GitHub or, you know, various open source projects. You can actually showcase your code. So pick a problem, learn a few, learn some approaches or try out some novel approaches, and put out the code out there. Put that on your resume because that adds a lot of weight, in your, in your ability to make a case for an internship rather than somebody who hasn't, who says, oh, I have, I have a strong programming background, but there's no way for somebody who's evaluating the person to see the code. So that these days has become a really strong advantage for, for a lot of students. So a couple of the students that are working with us this summer, they actually have active GitHub profiles where they've posted code, they've contributed code, various projects and so on. And as a consequence, like we looked at their profiles and backgrounds and like, oh, this is an obvious fit to our group and this person also has a background. A couple of them were like Ph.D students in geophysics, so it's an obvious fit for our team. So it was, it was all, it was a no-brainer for us to get them to come work with us this summer,Erica:09:53Jason?Jason:09:53On the geoscience side, it's, it's quite a bit different really. A lot of the students that are in university going for, for geoscience and wanting to go into the oil and gas industry have mainly just academic experience. So we really just want somebody that can sort of get up to speed quickly with sort of what an explorationist in an oil and gas company would do is look at essentially what we're bringing them in to do is what a sort of a mini, really quick exploration studies on basins where they don't have to go full on to drill a well, but they still need to have the ideas behind it where they can use the data, they have to evaluate an area and come up to speed quickly with, with getting those presentations out. So having really good presentation skills and having just a background enough to be able to learn on their own and pick up concepts quickly really helps. We see that a lot with, since we do get a lot of our interns through their advisors at different universities, that that really helps. But it also doesn't hinder it. We've also had lots of students that have applied, that have came from different universities where we don't know the advisors and it's just a matter of them going through the interview process and showcasing that they're, they're able to get to speed quickly. So, anybody can really go, go and do this type of work if they have the, the ability to learn.Erica:11:14Awesome.Sri:11:14I think that's an interesting point that Jason brought up. The ability to learn things fast and, sort of the ability to, appreciate various data sets and trying to understand and bring them together. I think that's a huge advantage for, for students. And based on my interaction with students in our group as well as Jason's group, I think TGS this summer has a fabulous group of interns.Erica:11:43Okay. Well thank you guys for talking to us about the internship program and we're very happy to talk to your respective groups and see what they have to say. Thank you.Sri:11:52Thank very much.Jason:11:53Thank you.Erica:11:56I'm sitting here with our first group of interns from the data and analytics group. To my left, we have Michael Turek from Florida State University. His major is computer science. He has a B.S. In computer science as an Undergrad. What are your career goals? What are you working towards?Michael Turek:12:15Yes. So part of me taking an internship here at TGS was to help figure that out. And so, well, you know, my interests rely mostly in machine learning and things like this. So something pretty, along those lines.Erica:12:31Awesome. Well we hope you, we'll help you figure that out. While you're here. Going around the table, we have Lingxiao Jia from the University of Wyoming. Your major is geophysics and you're working towards your PhD studying seismic imaging, migration and inversion. What kind of career are you working towards?Lingxiao Jia:12:50I plan to work as a Geoscientist in the oil and gas industry.Erica:12:56Awesome.Lingxiao:12:56Yeah, I like to do programming, so mostly on that.Erica:13:06Cool. All right. And then to my right, we had Deepthi Sen, from Texas A&M, majoring in petroleum engineering, working towards your PhD, studying reservoir engineering. What's your career goal, Ms. Deepthi?Deepthi Sen:13:21I'd like to, get a full time employment in the oil industry, preferably working on something related to machine learning in reservoir engineering. So yeah, that's why one of the reasons why I'm here too.Erica:13:33Awesome. Yeah. Oh, we're glad all of you are here. So can you guys describe for us, the projects you're working on? I'm not sure if you guys are all working on the same project or if you're working on different projects.Deepthi:13:45We are working on different projects. So right now I'm working on something which, involves clustering well logs, into good and bad, sections.Deepthi:13:57I use machine learning and a few algorithms that I use for my graduate research too.Erica:14:04Very cool. What's a bad section?Deepthi:14:07A bad section as in, there are certain depths at which, certain well logs behave erratically so we want, do not want to use that data, so we have to cluster it out. So, in order to do that manually for, you know, thousands of wells, it's impossible. So that's where machine learning comes into play.Erica:14:27Very cool. Very useful too. Lingxiao?Lingxiao:14:32I'll be working on using machine learning to do the recognition of geoscience features. For example, there could be faults, it could be picking horizons, could be recognizing salt domes, something like that.Erica:14:48Wow. Very complex and over my head. (Laughter) I'm sure it's very important though. And you, sir?Michael:14:57Yeah, so I'm working on translating the models that TGS' data analytics team uses to predict salt patches in the earth. So they use, they use models written in a module called Pi Torch and I'm converting that to tensorflow 2.0Erica:15:17Cool. Very cool. So what have you guys learned along the way so far? I know this is kind of the beginning for you, but-Michael:15:28Yeah, so it's, it's somewhat difficult to- so much, is kind of the answer to that question. But a lot of what I've learned boils down to more of the theory side of machine learning. Coming into the internship I didn't know a whole lot about the backend of machine learning, mostly just applying it. So learning how all these models work and why they work and things like that in terms of, the actual actually applying machine learning. That's what I've learned. I've also learned though, perhaps more importantly, working with a team and collaborating and things like that, which has been-Erica:16:10So hands on, real-world experience. What do you guys say to that? Ladies, I should say (Laughter) to my right.Deepthi:16:17So as I said, the research that I do is again, on machine learning. So I get to use similar algorithms to another, I would say facet of oil and gas. So I worked in reservoir engineering back in Grad school. Here I'm working on, petrophysics, so I kind of see how the same algorithms and same concepts can be applied in two different, areas, which is quite eye opening. Yeah. And apart from that I'm learning new algorithms and learning new math, which, I would think that's very important for, for my Grad school too, so, one good thing about TGS is that, they are quite, you know, they don't mind, publishing. So as a PhD student, that's very important to me. So that's one thing I look forward to too.Erica:17:08Yeah. Awesome.Lingxiao:17:10For me, it has helped me get a deeper understanding of how much, how machine learning works and how it could be applied to the field of Geo Sciences.Erica:17:20Cool. So talking about TGS more broadly, like as a culture, how would you say it's like working here, if someone were to ask you from school, what's it like working at TGS? What's that company like? What would you say?Deephti:17:36It's a very friendly atmosphere and, it is different from Grad School, in the sense that, I think Grad School, hours are more flexible than in an industry environment. But then, the focus is different and this is more, you know, I would think this more social than Grad school and, you know, being here, this is my first internship in the US, the environment is very friendly and you know, people look out for each other it's great.Erica:18:15Cool.Lingxiao:18:15Yeah. People here are so helpful and the, I have had a great time. I really enjoy this internship by far. Yeah.Erica:18:26Awesome.Michael:18:26It's wonderful. You're working in small teams and so you get to know everyone pretty well. It's very tight knit and those people are smart and very helpful kind people. It's, it's, it's wonderful.Erica:18:37Cool. Any surprises along the way? Anything you weren't expecting?Michael:18:44So, no, I wouldn't say there's anything that surprised me. I mean apart from the environment I had a much more perhaps rigid definition of, you know, you go to work and do your job and that's kind of that, but it's much more relaxed and that was, I guess, somewhat surprising.Erica:19:01Okay. I like that. Yeah. How bad the drive was maybe?Deepthi:19:06Yeah, I stay close by.Erica:19:09That's good. That's the way to do it. (Laughter) Yeah. What are you guys looking forward to for the remainder of your internships?Michael:19:17Yeah, so I'm looking forward since I'm rewriting these, these models and an interface for them, it'll be exciting to see them, how they perform and also to actually see the data and analytics team using them and hopefully finding them useful.Erica:19:31Yeah to see value for what you're working on. Absolutely.Deepthi:19:34So I'm about to finish the first part of my project, so I would like to wrap it up, you know, produce some good results and maybe get a publication out of it. And after that, yeah, I have a plan for what is to be done next, regarding the same, using the same similar approach but in a different setting. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that.Erica:19:59Can you tell us what the different setting is or is that classified?Deepthi:20:03I'm not sure. (Laughter)Erica:20:05Right. We'll leave that one alone.Lingxiao:20:08So doing an internship here at TGS is an amazing adventure. I learn and discover new things everyday and I feel time passes very quickly, and everything is moving at a timely manner. So it's pretty good.Erica:20:24Nice. So I think we kind of touched upon how you guys are going to apply what you've learned here, at your careers as you go forward. Is there any particular job title that you guys think you're going to go towards?Deepthi:20:44Yeah. I probably will be going for a data scientist role, or I can say because of my background in reservoir engineering, I can go both on the data and science roles or the reservoir engineering roles. But yeah, from my experience here, I would, I think I would prefer to go to the data and data science roles because, there are like lots of opportunities out there and, the experience that I've gained here, I, I think it's going to be very helpful finding a full time position later on. Yeah.Lingxiao:21:18I could consider becoming a Geoscientist in the oil and gas or becoming a structural engineer because I have a programming background.Michael:21:32Yeah. I wouldn't say I have any career title I'm, I'm seeking out, but perhaps data scientist, but I'm not sure.Erica:21:41So what advice would you give to the interns who are going to be coming behind you?Michael:21:46Yeah. So probably to just build strong relationships with the team that you're in. Learn as much as you can, as deeply as you can.Deepthi:21:58Yeah. I would suggest that before coming in, you can go through, or if they have a set plan for you. In my case they did. So I had read up and you know, known what I'm going to work on so you can, you know, straight away start working on the project you have a rather than, you know, spend a lot of time, reading up those things that can happen before you start the internship. And yes, once you're here, it's, very important to like keep in touch, you know, meet the mentors every day or you know, update them so you have a clear path that you need to, yeah.Erica:22:44Lingxiao?Lingxiao:22:44I would suggest to go talk with people and you see what everyone is working on.Erica:22:51So learn, learn what other people are doing as well.Lingxiao:22:55Yeah.Erica:22:55That, yeah, that makes good sense. So why did you guys apply for the internships here?Michael:23:05So I applied, cause I was just looking for an internship and I had heard that, well I had heard that, (Laughter)Erica:23:14Honest.Michael:23:14(Laughter) I had heard good reviews from people who I respect and and I knew that they had a new data and analytics team doing machine learning, doing things with machine learning. That piqued my interest. And so I told them I was interested.Erica:23:28So kind of diverge off of that. So what programs are you guys using? Like actual hands on programs?Michael:23:36Yeah. So, programs for me are pretty, pretty simple. I use, a coding ID, visual Studio Code, and an Internet browser.Erica:23:43Whoa, okay.Michael:23:46I do that to do my work.Erica:23:47Google and a calculator, alright.Michael:23:49Yeah, pretty much.Erica:23:52Deepthi?Deepthi:23:52Uh, what was the question again?Erica:23:56What programs do you guys use?Deepthi:23:59Again, I guess we are in the process of making a program, so what I use is just Jupyter, it's very basic.Erica:23:59It's built on Python correct?Deepthi:23:59Yes, it is Python, I use Jupyter ID, and I'm in the process of making something useful from scratch.Erica:24:22So lastly, would you guys recommend a TGS internship to your fellow students?All:24:27Yes, definitely. Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Awesome. Yes.Erica:24:34Okay. So open question to the table. What are you going to take back to your program that you learned from your internship here? Starting with Michael to the left?Michael:24:42Yeah, so I'm learning a lot about machine learning and so in computer science that's obviously going to be a direct parallel. I can take that back. But I really think that what I'm learning most here that I'll take back is just how to collaborate with people, how to talk with people in a team and work in that way. I think that'll -Erica:25:05Life skills.Michael:25:11Yes.Erica:25:11Lingxiao?Lingxiao:25:11So, since machine learning in such a hot topic. Now, the work that I did here could be really extended into a project in my PhD research. So, yeah I'm currently working on that.Erica:25:28Awesome. Deepthi?Deepthi:25:29So right now we're working on a clustering of time series data. So my, one of the projects that I'm working, at my Grad school is also on time series data, and I think I might be able to, you know, use the insights that I gained from, from TGS, directly to my, research. So that's something that I'm looking forward to.Erica:25:52Awesome. Okay, well thank you guys for talking with us today and I guess we'll let you get back to work now.Michael:25:59Thank you for having us.Deepthi:26:00Thank you.Lingxiao:26:01Thank you.Erica:26:01And now our last group for this episode, the geoscience interns.Erica:26:08Going around the table clockwise, we have Sean Romito. You're from the University of Houston, majoring in geology. You are working towards your PhD and you are studying magnetic basement structure of the Caribbean plate, tectonostratigraphy of South Gabon and Camamu-Almada conjugate basins. I totally know what all of that means. What career are you working towards?Sean Romito:26:35Oh, hello. Thank you for having me. Definitely exploration Geoscientist, this is kind of where I've been propelling my career, ever since I started with a bachelor's and I've just kinda been stepping towards that goal.Erica:26:51Awesome. All right. Now we have Geoff Jackson from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette Majoring in petroleum geology. Your program is a master's degree and you graduated last spring. Congratulations!Geoff Jackson:27:07Thank you!Erica:27:07You studied a prospect lead off of a salt dome in southern Louisiana, and you cannot give us any more details than that.Geoff:27:14Unfortunately yes.Erica:27:14Very mysterious. So what, what are your career goals?Geoff:27:19Uh, similar to Sean's I was going to say, I can probably speak for the group here, but we're all just trying to be geologists and getting on with an operator, going to say probably best case scenario.Erica:27:28Awesome. Next we have Hualing Zhang, from the University of Houston, majoring in geology, working towards a PhD. And you're studying structural analysis and gravity modeling in the Permian Basin in West Texas. And you are originally from Urumqi, Northwest China and you got interested in geology about traveling around. That is so cool. So is your career goal the same?Hualing:27:53Yeah, basically similar, I'm working towards a career goal in the oil industry. Yeah. Since, like, my dad is also a geologist. Yeah. He works in PetroChina. So yeah, that's also my career goal.Erica:28:08Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. All right. And lastly, Cahill Kelleghan from Colorado School of Mines, majoring in geology. You're working towards a Masters of science and geology, and you're studying sedimentology and basin analysis / modeling with your thesis being in the Delaware Basin. So career goals?Cahill:28:28I'm pretty similar. I like to be in exploration geology and I really like sedimentology. So yeah, just applied geo science.Erica:28:36Awesome. Cool. So can you describe for us the projects that you guys are working on this summer? Same project or different project?Sean:28:46TGS has kind of tasked us with, I'm putting together some potential prospects or ideas of places we can look and most of that's going to be happening, well, we think it'd be North America and North American basins. And so we've kind of gotten access to some of their pretty amazing software, access to a lot of different databases and kind of putting that all together for a big picture of something useful that they can hopefully use from our projects. So I don't know if you guys want to add anything.Geoff:29:15Yeah, I mean, for one thing with these projects that's been very helpful to leverage the software that TGS has, specifically Longbow and access to their wealth of onshore well data that they have there. So we've been kind of bringing all of that together to generate these areas where we think that we should move further into as a company.Hualing:29:40Yeah. Also the first two weeks we're like working separately. We each have a study area and it's just a information gathering and doing researches and moving forward. Right now we are working in pairs. So, me and Geoff, we are working on similar location and to do like a research in a more detailed way. Yeah.Erica:30:05So you guys mentioned the software programs you're using. So aside from Longbow, what other programs do you use?Cahill:30:14Um, a lot, a lot of work in Kingdom. But Longbow yeah. Longbow and Kingdom. I'd say probably the big two. Yeah. yeah.Sean:30:25Any, I mean, any time you talk about geology, Arc Gis is going to come up. So we've definitely been using that a lot as well.Erica:30:32Okay. And is that different than what you were familiar with, from school or is this the same training that you had?Sean:30:39Well, Longbow is completely different. You know, even looking at production data is not something that I, you know, geoscientists when we ever, we go through academia, we even get exposed to. We use Kingdom. But I think it's, it's more of on a limited basis. I've, I've really been able to work a lot with, the, the well interpretation suites here at TGS that I hadn't worked with before.Erica:31:03Cool. How do you, do you find that challenging or kind of a natural extension of what you are already working with?Sean:31:11I mean, I, yeah, challenging, interesting, different. The team here, the geoscience team here has been very helpful, with the different, features. I'd say there are bugs. Some people might say they're features with the Kingdom software. (Laughter) but I'd say challenging. Yeah, but, but in a good way, not, not as a, you know, wringing out your hands kind of way.Erica:31:33So what else have you guys learned besides Longbow?Geoff:31:37I think for me is just kind of seeing just like what a day-in and day-out sort of process is like. So like having worked in the field, I never walked, I've never worked in a corporate environment before, but just kind of seeing how teams integrate and work together, it's going to say I've never seen that portion before. And so for me it's been fun, you know, going from classroom and then getting the actual hands on application of what we learned in the classroom. That's what's been fun for me so far.Erica:32:01Anyone else agree? Agree, disagree?Sean:32:03I agree. Yeah. No, I mean another thing that I feel a lot of us, especially me and with my Phd projects, they're very wide scale. I'm not talking about basins, I'm talking about plates. And so it's been very rewarding to kind of zoom in. Even if we are still basin scale, that's a lot smaller than I'm used to. So I'm able to kind of get lost in the details more than I would in a very large scale study.Hualing:32:28I think also a good thing is we learn from each other. Like where were you working together? Yeah, we're getting familiar with the software and if any of us found something and others will get around and see what we found. And I think that's very important for us to learn.Erica:32:48Yeah, absolutely.Cahill:32:50Yeah, I think kind of going off that as well and we obviously us for come from different backgrounds in Geo Science and what we've worked in and we kinda bring those backgrounds and each of our own projects and we kind of can come together and help each other out in different areas that we might not be more experienced with, like certain, well log interpretations or mapping things, stuff like that. So, so yeah, it's, it is helpful to have a team.Geoff:33:14Good overlap.Erica:33:14What's it like working at TGS, culture wise? The people, the food?Sean:33:22(Laughter) well they treat us well hereGeoff:33:24I was gonna say no complaints there. Yeah, I mean getting started in know there's always a learning curve, but I mean I guess as much of a learning curve as there could be, you know, everyone around here has been as helpful as possibly could be, you know, to help make that climb that much less steep, if that's a good way of wording it. But that's kind of what I would think.Cahill: 33:43The food is definitely good. Healthy. I like it.Sean:33:45Can't complain about free lunches.Cahill:33:47Yeah. But, but I mean I think the culture here is really, everyone's been extremely nice and even just within the geoscience team, a lot of nice guys; Cian and Alex, they've been so helpful with any questions we have, whether it be geology related or software related, and we've had company outings already. Going on Top Golf is super fun. Everyone's very open to meeting different branches and whatnot. So that was really fun.Erica:34:12Why did you apply? Did it, for TGS' internship program in particular?Sean:34:17Well. Yeah. So, our professor, me and Hualing, we have the same, advisor at the University of Houston. Dr. Paul Mann. And he was actually the one that reached out to us because, James, the head of the Geoscience Department here, had reached out to him looking for good candidates. and he had asked us if we wanted to, to join up. We, we kind of, you know, we researched it. We, I was, I talked to James on the phone and it just seemed like something, so different from what I was doing at the moment that I felt like it was a great opportunity to jump back. And it, I have absolutely no regrets.Erica:34:54Awesome.Geoff:34:54Yeah, my story is pretty much the same thing. My thesis advisor was, was good friends with James K and so he reached out to me and saying, pretty much the same deal as him. Looked into you guys, obviously cause say Jason, I met you before. So that, and also, the interns from last year, I was going to say I was good friends with them too. So I knew what they did. And so, here I am.Erica:35:17Any surprises along the way? Anything that you weren't expecting that you've encountered during your time here?Cahill:35:25I guess one thing is, it shouldn't be surprising, but I'd always is that I'm working with really big data sets. There's always lots of errors you have to put up with. And even with the amazing technology we have, there's always, there's always a human aspect to it, that's always interesting, that we've dealt with in our data at least so far.Hualing:35:44I think for me it's the flexible working time and my, yeah, he didn't request a specific time to be here or like a specific time to leave. So that's like really helpful for my schedule that I can make adjustment along and try to see by what time range works best for me. Yeah.Geoff:36:08Yeah, that's definitely been nice. I feel, like you said having to commute from Spring. I was going to say, getting to come in maybe later or earlier as need be. It's always definitely nice to dodge that traffic.Erica:36:22What are you guys looking forward to working on for the remainder of your internship here?Geoff:36:27Well, I'm really excited to see the end product of what we're doing, especially because, we're going to be presenting it to upper management, and presenting it to our, our geoscience team as well. I think that's really going to help bringing it all together. Cause right now we know we're all working on our separate areas as well. I mean, we're still two teams in a certain area, but it's still very much our own work. And so that, that finish line I think is going to be where it all comes together and I see more bigger, I see a bigger picture than maybe I'm seeing right now.Geoff:36:57Yeah. I think one aspect that I like about is, it's not just busy work. You know, we're actually adding value to the company with an end result. Kind of like what Sean said.Erica: 37:06No making coffee?All:37:08(Laughter) Danggit. For ourselves, we make coffee for ourselves.Erica:37:14Um, what advice would you give to other students wanting to intern here?Cahill:37:20Say like, don't be afraid to get into anything that you're not experienced with. Whether it's geology or software related. Since coming here, I feel like you can learn a lot from a lot of different people and there's a lot of different backgrounds here and people are all open to helping you or talking about their passion and their little branch of geology or geoscience. And so I would say don't be afraid to ask questions and go up to random people and say, hey, what do you do here? And what are you into? Because chances are they're happy or passionate about their job and you can probably learn something from it.Geoff:37:54Yeah. Maybe to add onto those, don't feel like you have to know everything beforehand coming in. Cause I mean you're not, no one's gonna know everything. Kind of like what Cahill said, there's plenty of resources around. You don't feel afraid to ask. No. Everyone out here is more than willing to give their time to help you out for what you might have a problem with. And we've had that reiterated to us time and time again. So, I mean, it's been nice to know.Sean:38:17Hmm. And, I don't know if before we talked about how we got the internship, and I feel personal connections are the biggest, you know, it's not about going on a website and clicking apply. It's about going to the conferences and meeting people from TGS and they're extremely friendly. We've all seen that firsthand. So I'd definitely recommend, and I, I would recommend it as well that you would get an internship with TGS, but just go up and see them during conferences, talk to them, ask them about opportunities, say, Hey, what are you guys doing? Be interested. and even if you don't get something out of it, that's fine. You're still gonna make connection, connections and learn about where the industry's heading.Hualing:38:53Yeah, I definitely agree with Sean, cause I met Alex on with, the person, our geoscience group, we met during the AAPG meeting at San Antonio and I talked to him and, he talked to me about his project and what I may be expecting for my interns. I think that definitely helped. And yeah, when I first day, when I came here, I saw him as, hey, yeah, that's, yeah. I feel like familiar and yeah, I'm more easy to get along. Yeah.Erica:39:28What have you gained during your time here at TGS that you're gonna take with you as you continue your studies and your career?Sean:39:36Everything we just talked about. Yeah, no, I mean that, that's a good sum up question. So the, the connections we've made with all the people here, not just in the Geo science team, every, every other team that there has that there is at this company. All the skills that we're learning with these different programs, the different perspectives we're getting because we're looking at, again, not just geological data, we're looking at, these problems more holistically. All that and above, I think is what we're going to take with us.Cahill:40:02Yeah. I think, you pretty much nailed it on the head. It's seeing the, the geoscience in an actual industry application in its own way. It's a lot of different moving parts coming together for an end product that's ultimately valuable and generates business. And then seeing how that works, you know, if on a fundamental level that's, that's pretty interesting and being able to be a part of, it's pretty cool. So.Erica:40:27Well, awesome. Well, thank you guys for being here. Thank you for talking with us today, and we'll let you get back to work.

25Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26"If anyone comes to Me, and does not I.e. by comparison of his love for Mehate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. 34"Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

It’s Design Week in Portland! The week when all of the makers, the tallest and the smallest, get together to talk about the looks they love, the technology they’re using, and the newest concepts and products they're dreaming up. From streetwear to downtown Portland to sporting goods to candy, everything's on the drawing board.We started out the festival last week with a live Think Out Loud show at the Redd, an old industrial building in Southeast Portland that's serving as DWP's headquarters. This week, we're packaging some of those interviews together with new reported stories from the rest of the fest.JavHack: Reimagining Sports Ergonomics - 5:48You might not think the javelin needs innovation. It worked for four-hundred thousand years of human history, right? But track and field athletes are always pushing the limits. We spoke with record-breaking javelin thrower Tom Petronoff about the need for a new design vision and the time he almost speared Alberto Salazar. You can see videos of some high-class javelin chucking and a vintage clip of Tom Petranoff narrated by Caitlin Jenner here. Cutting Edge Pixels with the Annual Animation Challenge - 10:04Jamal Qutub has been in love with animation since he was a kid. For work, he creates animations for clients like Adidas and Intel, but in his spare time, Qutub runs AEPDX, a meetup group for local animators. For the past three years, Qutub has been putting together an animation challenge during Design Week. Local animators submit short films to be viewed and voted on by an audience of their peers and interested DWP spectators.Portland's Highline? A Proposed Park that Wants to Change How You See the City - 18:04Last year, Design Week featured a challenge to design a 6-mile linear park circling downtown Portland called the Green Loop. Now the winners, Untitled Studio, are taking the conceptual idea one step further with an interactive exhibit as part of this year’s festival. They stop in to tell us about their big dreams and why Portland needs the Green Loop.QUIN Candy's Magical Confections - 30:42What could be better at the end of Design Week Portland than dessert? Jami Curl told a sweet story on Friday about how she built two successful companies, QUIN Candy and Saint Cupcake, that stand out in the forest of Portland food brands. We visited her at her QUIN Candy production room this week and heard all about her candy-design.Design in the Forest: Maya Lin's Bird Blind - 37:33So many design stories originate on desktops and drafting tables, but we found one that must be experienced with hiking boots on. While Design Week took out a busload of explorers, we headed out to explore the Sandy River Delta with biologist Bill Weiler, Confluence Project member Colin Fogarty and designer Dylan Woock. In 2004, the Confluence Project kicked off with the goal of connecting people with places in the Columbia Basin. Confluence’s renowned artist and designer Maya Lin took on this challenge, and created an elliptical immersive sculpture out of wood and metal that blends effortlessly into the terrain. Portland At-Risk Youth Create Streetwear Label – 43:45“Don’t just rise, take flight” is the tagline of streetwear label dfrntpigeon, which is a collaboration between the non-profit New Avenues for Youth and branding gurus AKQA. Run by marginalized and homeless youth, the agency designs and sells shirts and apparel that are expressive, political, sometimes humorous, and sometimes dark. They’ve just released their newest line of tees, The Identity Collection, with screen printed shirts like “Humanity,” which shows four forearms holding a cigarette, a grenade, an hourglass, and a digital clock, surrounded by a ring of flowers.

http://versebyversebibleteaching.com/wp-content/uploads/matthew%2024_32_39.mp3 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till […]