Podcast appearances and mentions of rick murphy

Show Notes:  https://wetflyswing.com/521 Presented By: Angler's Coffee, Smitty's Fly Box, Yellowstone Teton Territory In today's episode, owner of Fly Fishers Shop and Scientific Angler Ambassador Pat Ehlers takes us to fly fishing largemouth bass. Pat's journey into the realm of fly fishing is a tale that began with childhood wonder and evolved into a lifelong passion. With a boatload of expertise and a trusty VEXUS, he takes us on a bass-fishing adventure that's as thrilling as it is educational. Plus, he introduces us to his custom-crafted patterns like the Vampire Leech and Grim Reaper. Don't miss out on this episode packed with bass-catching wisdom from a true master of the craft! Episode Chapters with Pat Ehlers on Fly Fishing Largemouth Bass 02:10 - Pat's journey into fly fishing began as a young kid watching the first American Sportsman show on ABC with Curt Gowdy and Jack Dennis. He later developed a special mentorship with Jack Dennis and opportunities to share his knowledge at national fly fishing shows. 04:00 - Pat started the Fly Fishers Fly Shop in 1988. 08:22 - We talked about the evolution of fishing and fishing equipment over the years. Pat's commitment to finding high-end gear to better serve his customers eventually led him to explore saltwater fishing. 09:20 - Pat's introduction to Rick Murphy came through a connection with Flip Pallot. This meeting proved instrumental in expanding his knowledge of saltwater fishing. Today, Rick Murphy is the host of Sportsman's Adventures. 15:07 - Pat provides a comprehensive overview of the diverse fishing opportunities in their area. The region also boasts some of the best bass lakes within a 20-minute drive. Pat is well-equipped for these expeditions, thanks to his partnership with VEXUS Boats and Mercury Marine's Pro team. Finding Fish 19:17 - When it comes to targeting largemouth bass, having access to a boat is crucial, as the fish tend to be in deeper waters. Pat owns a 21-foot VEXUS boat, which he finds to be the perfect fit for pursuing largemouth bass in their part of the world. 22:08 - Pat uses reliable electronics for locating fish, like Minn Kota Humminbird. However, he acknowledges that not everyone may have access to such high-tech equipment, and a good lake map can be incredibly useful in finding fish. 24:49 - Pat mentions his collaboration with Scientific Anglers to develop specialized lines, including the Sonar Titan Sink Tip Mini, a five-foot mini sink tip that has proven popular among anglers. 34:00 - Pat says his Vampire Leech is a good pattern to use when dealing with cold water conditions. Pat also mentions the Grim Reaper pattern, inspired by the swim jigs. 45:00 - Pat says it's an excellent time for fly fishing in early September, with the water temperatures still warm and the bass active. 48:00 - Pat also shares an interesting technique involving the popper dropper. 55:00 - Pat describes two of his crayfish fly patterns, the Crazi Craw and the Long Strip Crayfish. 56:00 - Pat emphasizes that the choice of rod size depends on the type of flies being used and the size of the fish one anticipates encountering. 1:01:24 - Pat shares a casting technique he developed, resembling an underhand cast, which allows for accurate placement of the fly even in challenging locations. Show Notes:  https://wetflyswing.com/521

Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech,  getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l

In this episode we meet with the filmmakers of the documentary film "KCC Stories Lived and Stories Told" which was premiered at the AFT conference 2021.  We meet with the creators, Rick Murphy, Helen Mahaffey, Ayesha Aslam, Mark Chidgey and Karen Partridge as they share their reflections on key moments from the film, their thoughts on making the film and their memories of the KCC and what it means to them. We invite you to all watch the film (if you haven't already) and  share in  reflecting about the memory and legacy of the KCC.You can watch the full film here:https://youtu.be/j48EfTVsJooPlease do share with us your reflections, memories and thoughts about the KCC, the documentary and this episode at  https://www.instagram.com/thesystemicway/

Kevin Killeen interviews GM Wentsville, Rick Murphy about offroading. 

On the latest edition of “The Parting Schotts Podcast,” Associate Sports Editor Ken Schott talks to Union men's lacrosse coach Derek Witheford as the Dutchmen prepare to face John Carroll in the second round of the NCAA Division III tournament on Saturday at Frank Bailey Field. Tri-City ValleyCats president Rick Murphy comes on the show to discuss the professional baseball team's 20th season in the Capital Region. Stephen Whyno, who covers the NHL for The Associated Press, talks about Monday's surprise firing of New York Islanders head coach Barry Trotz. Whyno and Schott will also talk about what they have seen so far in the first round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. “The Parting Schotts Podcast” is available wherever you get your podcasts and at https://dailygazette.com/category/sports/parting-schotts.

Intro: Crypto bros, missing the great economic bubbles of the early 2000s. We may as well have cotton candy furniture, Severance on Apple TV, Bad Vegan. Let Me Run This By You: Stage Moms, kindergarten theatre.Interview: We talk to Joe Basile about Long Island accents, NYU Tisch, Bradley Walker, Ensemble Studio Theatre, Liz Lerman's Critical Response Process, Mary Zimmerman's Metamorphoses, the Neo-Futurists Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind (The Infinite Wrench), perfectionism,  Roundabout Theatre Company,  A Bright Room Called Day, Suzan Lori Parks, Go Humphrey, sock puppet Showgirls, keeping the thread of community after college ends.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (32s):Okay. I'm getting, I'm getting it together. I, Yeah, I woke up with this really interesting idea that I wanted to run by you, which was, cause I was really tired when I woke up and I thought, okay, everyone's tired when they wake up. And then I thought, well, and they always say like, Americans, you know, never get enough sleep. We're always tired. But like nobody ever investigates why really? Why that is that our system is really fucked up. So like, I don't know. I just was like, yeah, we always do all these like expos A's on like sleep or wellness. Right? Like Americans are the fattest and the most unhealthy. And I'm only speaking about Americans because that's where we live. I don't know shit about Madrid.2 (1m 13s):You know, I'm sure they're they have their own plethora of fucking problems. But I'm just saying like, we don't actually do the work to like, figure out what is wrong. We're just like, Americans are, this Americans are that nobody's getting enough sleep. And like, there's all these, you know, sort of headlines. Right. And we're not just like, well, why is nobody getting enough sleep? Like what is actually happening? So that was my grand thought upon waking up was like, yeah, like, I don't know. We just never dig deep in this case. We're not big on digging.4 (1m 46s):Probably not. I mean, I think our lifestyle overall is pretty unhealthy and it's because of our economic model.2 (1m 58s):What I was gonna say, it all boils down to see the thing is the more you talk to people, the more I do the angrier I get, especially like in my office, like slash co-working, like I gravitate towards the ladies and a lot of ladies of color. And we end up sitting around talking about how like capitalism and systematic racism and sexism are all tied together and how, and by the end, we're just so angry. We're like, okay, what can we do? And we're like, okay, well we need to stop putting money in the pockets of this old white man who owns the coworking. But like we have nowhere else to go. So we're like, now we're screwed. So anyway, it's interesting. It's like it all, every conversation I have of meaning with you or with my cousin and it all boils down to the same thing.2 (2m 43s):And then you end up thinking, I ended up thinking the really, the only way is mass extinction and starting over with a new species, fresh slate, fresh or revolution, right. Or some kind of bloody revolution, it's going to be bloody because you know, the, the, the, the people in power aren't going to let go as we see. So like, we're not, it's not good is all, but I don't feel necessarily like, and maybe it's because I took MTMA, but like, I don't necessarily feel terrible about it. I feel just like, oh yeah, like we're, we're headed towards this way, unless something drastic happens. And I'm not sure that's a terrible thing. Now I don't have children.2 (3m 23s):So I might feel totally different about my children and my children's children and their children, but I just don't, that's not my frame of mind. So anyway, that's what I was thinking as I was so tired, waking up.4 (3m 35s):Is there any world in which you and the other women in coworking can just put your, just rent and office?2 (3m 44s):So we're starting to organize to like, be like, okay, you know, like who would want to go in on a lease, you know? But the thing is, it's so interesting. It's like, well, maybe it's LA, but it's also the world. Like, people don't really trust it. Like we don't really know each other that well yet. So we'd have to like do credit checks and thank God. My credit is good. Thank God. Now it was terrible. But all this to say is that like also LA so transitory that people are like in and out and, and like my, you know, travel. It's just so it's such a weird existence, but we are talking and there's a guy, a black dude. Who's also like my financial guru guy who like, who works at co-working.2 (4m 28s):I met here, he's a mortgage guy. And he's just been like, talking to me all about fucking crypto bros and like how the crypto bros are like, he's like, it is insane. Now, Gina, did you know, now I'm just learning about this world. And he's like, it's all, make-believe basically we live in the matrix and that fucking, there is something called the virtual real estate. Did you know this? Okay, you can purchase virtual squares of real estate, like Snoop Dogg's house, like, like, and people are doing it. And the people who are, it's like a status thing and it's expensive. And the people who are becoming billionaires are the people who run the apps.2 (5m 9s):Right. Are the people who created the fucking program. We are in the matrix. And I was like, wait, what? And he showed me the site where you can buy any town. If you looked into your town, people are doing it. It is, it is consumerism mixed with people are buying things that don't exist.4 (5m 29s):Okay. Yeah. I feel like this is what happens when people with an unchecked power and privilege, it's like, okay, well, like literally we're just making it up. Let's just have cotton candy, be our furniture now. Like it's. So I tried to get into Bitcoin.2 (5m 50s):Oh yeah.4 (5m 51s):Like about five years ago, somebody that I went to high school with is rich from Bitcoin. And, and she was like one of the founders of one of these companies. And so the first problem I have is you shouldn't invest in anything that you don't understand. Right. So I tried to read about it and I'm just like, but what, I just kept reading and being like, yeah, but what is it? Right. You know, what's an NFT.2 (6m 20s):Oh my God. The NFTs. Oh my God. And his name is Lamont and I love him. And he was trying to teach me about those. And I was like, Lamont. I have to take some kind of drug to understand what you're saying. I don't,4 (6m 31s):I have, I, you know, I've read articles. I've had people explain it to me. I mean, I think what it is, is I do know what it is, but I'm just like, that can't be what people are spending that be that,2 (6m 43s):Yeah, because we're not stupid people. Like we can understand concepts of things.4 (6m 47s):The thing that got me off of cryptocurrency and, and FTS and all that is that it's so bad for the environment, blockchain, the amount of energy that's required to power blockchain is just like so destructive.2 (7m 3s):Okay. So this leads me to, so Lamont was like, you know, what's going on in the coworking row storage room. And I'm like, what? And of course me, I'm like, are there, is there like a torture chamber? That's why Was like, no, he's like one of the side businesses of the CEO of this place is to host these crypto machines that, that it's like credit card terminals, but for crypto. And so all the, all the crypto exchanges that go on need checks and balances, God, he's such a good teacher. He actually explained it to me. He's like, look, you, when you do a crypto exchange with somebody that has to be checked or else, how do you know you're actually getting shit, which is all like theoretical anyway.2 (7m 47s):But he's like, so then you have to create these machines that check the other machines. And those are some of those. And you get paid. It's just like having credit card terminals, right? It's like selling credit cards. You know, people that sell credit card terminals, like they make money off the, the things, the exchanges, the, the transactions, right? Transaction fees. It's like 10, 10 cents of whatever or something 4 cents. So we got machines in the fucking co-working that have nothing to do with coworking. And I re one day it was hotter than fuck over here. They take a lot of energy and Lamont Lamont goes to the guy, the crypto bro. Who's also the CEO of this coworking space who really wants to just be the crypto, bro.2 (8m 27s):He's like, listen, bro. Like, something's going to melt down. You got to have something to cool. These machines. I mean, it's a fucking disaster waiting to happen. We're all going to burn up because this motherfucker wants to do crypto. He's not even dude. He's just doing the terminals. They're called terminals. No wonder my motherfucking internet doesn't work. How much juice do these motherfuckers take? I got pissed. I got Lamont. And I got pissed. I said and Lamont so funny. He goes, yeah, I don't mind all this like virtual crypto shit, but I need some actual motherfucking green tee up in here. You haven't had green tea up in here for days.4 (9m 6s):This is what I'm going to say. This is a, like, when you all of this, when all of this starts swirling in my head and it's all overwhelming, I just go, oh, like, okay. But that's not for me. Like this whole ether, a world that's cotton candy furniture. Like that's not for me. I have to stick with what I know. I like go stick with your, with, with what's in your CTA, what's in your wheelhouse.2 (9m 30s):Right. She taught us. Catherine taught us that, right?4 (9m 33s):No, it was a2 (9m 35s):Catherine's job. Oh,4 (9m 38s):Josh. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about, the programs are called the, your concentration is called dementia anyway, like in the same way that, you know, people create art that other people criticize. And then you say, well, it's not for you. Like, I just know that none of that is for me. So, you know, because here's the thing we Erin and I have had near misses on like a bunch of bubbles. Right? We lived in California, we lived in the bay area during the, what they used to call the.com. And all of our friends had these hundred thousand dollars a year jobs and worked at Google and places and got Friday night, beer parties and lunch catered, whatever, every single day.4 (10m 23s):And we were just like, oh my God, we're so dumb. We can't, we don't know how to work in tech. We don't, we can't get to me take advantage of this opportunity. Then it was the housing market. And in 2004, it's like, wow, you could get a house. Like we could buy a house. Somebody would give us a mortgage. When we have no money in so much debt, we thought we should buy a house. We looked into buying a house that didn't work out. That turned out to be a good thing. I think the crypto thing is another, like, I'm not saying it's a bubble. Although it probably is. Cause we have to be in a bubble. But I'm saying like, I put myself at ease about not being able to really grasp these things by just saying like, oh, that's not for me.4 (11m 10s):That's not what I'm, that's not what I'm really like here on this planet to eat, to do2 (11m 16s):It interests me. And also, yeah, it's so bad for the environment. And also I just don't give a fuck. Also give me my fuck. Oh, we haven't had creamer up in this bitch for like, and I started, I was like, I don't give a fuck what you do here, but I need creamer. So if you don't like it and they finally got it, you bet your ass when Lamont and I were like, okay, green tea, we need it. And they got it. Cause we were like, fuck you. Like we're not stupid. And then the other thing that I wanted to say about the whole Bitcoin, oh the minimalist movement that these, these kids that are in their thirties are doing okay, listen to this. This is insane.2 (11m 56s):So kids are having and kids. Yeah. They're like 30, right? They're buying Teslas. Okay. But great. They buy a Tesla. Teslas are now equipped with so much shit that you can basically live in it. As long as you have a charging, they fucking park their shit and their parents' house. I'm not kidding you. So a lot of them were living with their parents. Right. And they were like, well, this fucking sucks, but they're saving all this money. Right. Cause it's so expensive. So there's sock away, their money. They buy a Tesla, they park the Tesla in their parents' fucking driveway. And they do experiments where they plug in and then they see if they can live in it. Okay. This is like a real thing.2 (12m 37s):Right? So it has everything you need except a shower and the bed, or like you, your seats go down. It's actually an, a toilet shower and a toilet. And then they get, so they have a Tesla,4 (12m 48s):They get,2 (12m 49s):They get, they get, they get a gym membership. Okay. So they had a Tesla and a gym membership and that's all they need. And they fucking don't own shit except crypto currency in their Tesla and fucking go around to different cities. And there's like all these Airbnb hacks and, and rental car hacks that if they travel, they travel around the country. Like the guy who is the CEO of this place, doesn't live here. He lives kind of an Austin kind of here is a test. It is the weirdest thing.4 (13m 22s):Okay. Well, when the Russians send nuclear missiles and we ended up having hand to hand combat with the Chinese or whatever, well, these fighting people gonna to do nothing.2 (13m 32s):I don't know how to do nothing. There'll be dead. No, no. But you and I are scrappy. Like we could figure it out. They're dead. And that's fine.4 (13m 41s):I always think of, I just said, I think like people used to hunt, you know, like w w where if our world is predicated on so much pretend and like, and like also just like this very thin margin of, well, it's all fine and good until the power grid goes out. It's all fine. And good until like, suddenly for whatever reason, there is just no internet,2 (14m 3s):Like, or they get hacked. Right,4 (14m 6s):Right. Yeah. It's all fine. And good until like everything that we put our hope hopes and dreams and faith into just doesn't work one day, because that's what happens with machines is they just, sometimes they write2 (14m 17s):And Lamont was saying, and I kind of agree with him that like, what he thinks is happening. So frantically the government is scrambling to get into crypto. Right. Frantically our government is like, we're going to have a fucking stake in this. So what he thinks is going to happen and like agree with him is that they're going to figure out a way to sabotage the crypto system and say, we, we now run the cryptosystem. He's like, I know it's a conspiracy theory, that kind of thing. But of course it's money. Right. So they're going to say, okay, okay. Like you guys are going to get screwed because someone's going to hack, you, let the government take over, we'll run crypto. And then of course,4 (14m 54s):Which takes away the main draw of crypto, which is that it's this currency that cannot be traced to everything. So the second there's any type of regulation that, that, and it's like, well, you might as well just be talking about dollars. Right. Because you know,2 (15m 9s):That's what they're going to do. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. We'll probably be dead, but that's okay.4 (15m 14s):Yeah. We'll probably be done. I'm watching this television show called severance. Oh,2 (15m 19s):Everybody loves severance.4 (15m 21s):Wow. Wow. Wow. It's it's woo. It's really something else. But what I love about it is it's kind of hard to explain, so I won't try to explain it, but there's suffice it to say the company that these people work for, the job that they do is they sit at these computer terminals and they there's just a screen full of numbers. And they have to put these digits into the correct bins at the bottom.2 (15m 53s):Okay.4 (15m 54s):Based on their feeling about the numbers, like these numbers are scary and these numbers are half. Yeah. It's so weird. Right? When I, when I see them, they're putting the numbers into this little bins in the bottom and I go cut. This is like my daughters, you know, like educational games. She has to do something like this. Well, it gets to the end of the season. And the they've, all this little department has leveled. The there's all this pressure on getting a certain quota by the end of the quarter. And it's, we don't, we're not gonna make it and we're not gonna make it.4 (16m 35s):We're not gonna make it at the last minute. They make it. And what making it looks like for them is that a pixelated cartoon character comes on and says like, basically you leveled up. So really it, I dunno if this is the point that they're trying to make, but it really looks like they're just playing a video game.2 (16m 58s):This is insane. I love it. It's the same.4 (17m 2s):It's really, really good. And I, and I reached out to all of the actors on there and seeing if anybody wants to be on our show, I got one person who was like, oh, that sounds interesting. I'm like, is that a yes and no, I never, I never heard anything back from her, but yeah, listen, humans are designed to work. So when you don't have to literally like, grow your own food and cut down your own wood, you have to find something to do. That feels work, work ish. And I feel like a lot of our industries are kind of work adjacent2 (17m 43s):And like, and like a lot of sorting into bins. Yeah.4 (17m 50s):You2 (17m 50s):See fucking bad vegan.4 (17m 55s):No, I was wondering if I should watch it.2 (17m 57s):Okay. Watch it. And we'll talk about it because whoa. It is, the Myles was a very frustrated with this documentary based on,4 (18m 9s):Oh, it's a documentary. Oh, I thought it was a tele. I thought it was a fictional show.2 (18m 13s):Oh, it they'll make a fictional show out of it. But it's a documentary about a woman who started a vegan restaurant and so much more in New York city. And it comes down to what we always said. And I'll wait until you watch it. But I, it just reinforces what we always talk about, which is if you have an unfulfilled, inner need from childhood, that shit will play out. I could trace this, her whole demise, her whole demise. And it's a whole crazy ass fucking story about this woman. Her whole demise comes down to the fact that Alec Baldwin did not pick her to date. Okay. That's it.2 (18m 53s):Okay.4 (18m 54s):Completely plausible. I completely understand that.5 (19m 1s):Let me run this by you.4 (19m 9s):I know my son got this part in a movie. And so the thing we wanted to run by you is I, Hm. So many things I get, I get stage moms. I understand why stage moms is a thing. When my son started getting into acting, he was five years2 (19m 35s):Old. Yeah. It was really young.4 (19m 37s):And my thing was, I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mum, which was reinforced by every time I've ever been on set. There's always at least one really out of control stage mom. And I think I told the story in the podcast before, but one time we, we were in a, he was doing Gotham that showed Bathum and there was like a gaggle of kids in this scene. And this one boy, I was just, you know, whatever. I was striking up a conversation with him and I said, oh, do you, do you really want to be an actor? And he said, no, my father makes me do this. I want to be at school.4 (20m 17s):And it was just so2 (20m 19s):Like,4 (20m 19s):God, and I met a lot of kids. This was back when he was doing all just all background stuff. I met a lot of that's where you find the most stage moms when the kids are like that, the stakes are just, couldn't be lower. Right. You know, they're just doing background, extra work, which is all just to say, though, I've had to be in dialogue with myself about what my aspirations are about working in film and television and my frustrated aspirations. And I, you know, I've had to just be constantly talking to myself about making sure that this is what he wants and not what I want. And in the classic thing that always happens is when he gets an audition, if he doesn't feel like doing it, it just, it becomes this thing.4 (21m 8s):And I always say, you don't have to be an actor. You don't have to have an agent, but if you're going to be an actor and you're going to have an agent, you have to do the audition.2 (21m 18s):That's true.4 (21m 19s):And you have to work at it and you have, you have to work hard at it. And that thing is actually really hard. And it takes a lot of work that we just kind of overcame this obstacle for the audition for this movie, because I made him put in maximum effort. Usually I don't usually, I'm just like, well, it's his career, you know, it's his life. If he doesn't want to work on it, why am I going to spend, you know, my whole time? But I'm really encouraged him to work on it. And he really did. And he did really well. And so now we're waiting to hear, you know, whether or not he's gotten it, but the first night that this was a thing, I couldn't sleep. I was awake. Like, I mean, part of it is thinking about the logistics.4 (22m 1s):Like how will I live in LA for a month when I have two other kids. Right. But the other part of it is just, what is this going to mean for him to, what's going to be what's next and what's next and what's next. And what's next. So I've talked a lot of shit about stage moms in the past. And I just want to say, if you're listening to this in your stage, mom, I get it. I get, I get, you know, because maybe this was your hope and dream, but also maybe just, you put a lot of effort into when you're the mom of the kid who wants to do this, it's so much work for the mom or the dad was the case may too much. It's, it's scheduling babysitters when you have other kids2 (22m 43s):Driving4 (22m 44s):Into the city for auditions paying for headshots every year, because they change so much every year communicating with doing the cell. I had to learn. This is actually how I learned how to do I moving because I had to, you know, work, learn how to edit his self-tapes and stuff like that. So, but have you encountered stage moms? Oh,2 (23m 7s):That's a great question. Yes. And I feel like I totally understand how moms and dads get and caretakers get to be that way. And I think also to remember for me is that it comes from this genuine usually place to want to help and protect your kid. And, and also, and then you mix that in with your own aspirations, which I would have to, if I had a child that I was shoveling around and also, yeah, I would encounter that. So I think I get it. And I also know that like when I worked at casting and at PR and I loved it, but they would occasionally be like moms that would bring in their kids or dads, but usually it's moms.2 (23m 57s):Right. Of course, who bring in their kids that were desperate to get the kid into the face of the casting directors. So they'd hang around. They didn't want to ingratiate themselves to casting at the audition. They'd come into the office and, and, you know, to their credit of my bosses, PR casting, they were lovely. Like they, but, but they also had work to do so. It was like, these kids are just sort of standing there smiling. And the mom is like pushing them and we all, it was very uncomfortable and it doesn't actually work like what works is being professional on set, doing a great job in the room, being a nice kid and being a nice parent, but it just feels like, and we know this from being actors.2 (24m 45s):It just feels like you have to like, sort of ingratiate and push yourself into the faces of the people with power in order to get anywhere. So then there's like these really uncomfortable moments of like talking about nothing while we're trying to get work done in the office, especially like, yeah, they have a lot of work to do. So it was just, it was just very, and you'll see when we go to PR like it's all glass. So like, you can see what the casting directors are doing in the office. So you want to be in there because it looks really fun.4 (25m 16s):Right. And2 (25m 18s):Actors who are like, quote, special, get to go in there and say, hi, like I'm friends with the, with the casting directors is the, is the idea. I'm not saying I'm like someone is, and then they get to go. It's just like a really weird thing. And it's also, it's very hard to navigate and I get it too. We, we, we want to be liked and loved and picked and chosen. And it is a universal thing.4 (25m 44s):I want the same thing for our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.2 (25m 48s):I don't. I've had never had anyone that has been bonkers, you know, but maybe, yeah. I never, yeah, never.4 (25m 55s):Yeah. I think really they're bonkers behavior. I think actually, probably the kids are the ones who absorbed the brunt of it, which is, you know, and also it's really hard to teach a kid about acting because you're, as we've said many times, you're, you're trying to figure out how to play a character when you don't even know who you are. I mean, that's really true for a kid and trying to teach them, it's supposed to be it's. Yes. It's pretend, but you're supposed to be sincere and no, you're not the character, but yes, you have to be there. It's a lot of mental gymnastics,2 (26m 32s):Impossible. And like, if you don't know how to communicate that to a kid, let alone, the kid know how to do it. It's a mess. And then you're just, it's just kind of a crap shoot. Like, especially when you wouldn't see that were two and three years old.4 (26m 47s):Oh, see, now that I can't2 (26m 51s):Was like, yeah, some kids are, I mean, it's just to me, I thought it was amazing, but I also didn't have an agenda. I'm trying to get shit done. Like the directors and the producers on the, everyone is trying to get shit done in the room. And I have a kid doesn't, you know, whatever the kid is literally three years old. So like, I thought it was amazing, but I, they it's, it's a nightmare.4 (27m 15s):Yeah. Did I ever tell you the story of when I taught drama to kindergarten?2 (27m 21s):I know you did, but I don't know.4 (27m 24s):I had this job at this school called head Royce in the bay area. I got a job teaching after-school drama to kindergartners. It might've been my very first teaching thing. No, but it was early on and I hadn't taught, I certainly hadn't taught like my full-time teaching job that I eventually had at a middle school, but not having children and not having taught. I thought we were just going to do a play, you know, like They were going to memorize their lines. I seriously thought I seriously picked a play.2 (28m 5s):What was it? Do you remember? Was it like fucking, wouldn't it be funny if it was like, you know,4 (28m 10s):Romeo and Juliet2 (28m 11s):Steel Magnolias or something like just like totally amazing.4 (28m 15s):And it was age appropriate because it, it, it turned out to have whatever it was. I can't remember. But it was also a children's book, which I, oh, oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I adapted a children's book.2 (28m 29s):Oh my God. Okay.4 (28m 32s):And the entire time we were working on it, it never occurred to me that they couldn't memorize their lives. I just kept being like, well, maybe by next week, they'll know it. My next week they'll know it until it came time to do the performance and all the parents came and I shit, you not, it didn't occur to me until all the parents were walking in. Every single one of them had a video camera. This is before cell phones that, oh my God, they are expecting a show. And I guess I was too. And they don't know, we don't have a shell.2 (29m 7s):It look like my God, this is brilliant.4 (29m 10s):I got to the point for awhile. I was like doing the knee. I was the narrator. Right. And, and then they was supposed to be saying their lines, but then they would never say their lines. So then basically what it amounts to is I just read the entire book. Would2 (29m 26s):They do4 (29m 27s):Well, the kids just stood there. And the middle of it, when kid in the middle of my, and of course the more anxious and, and terrible, I felt like the more forced and forced, I must have looked crazy. I wish I could say videos. I bet I looked like a complete lunatic and in the middle of it as, and I'm also getting louder and louder. It's like, I would love to, I'm sure those parents are erased, taped over those tapes, but I would love to see just frantic me and I'm getting read By the time it was over, I just went to the headmaster's office.4 (30m 16s):And I was like, I did a terrible job. You should never hire me again. This was a complete disaster. And they were like, yeah, maybe this isn't your thing.3 (30m 39s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Joe, the seal, Joe is an actor and a writer and a content creator and a former Neo futurist. He has got a going on and he is lovely and charming and personable and a marketing genius. He has his own company. Now. He is all that. And the bag of chips as the kids used to say five years ago. And I hope you really enjoy our conversation with Joseph.4 (31m 21s):You still have that fabulous smile.7 (31m 27s):You were so sweet. It's so good to see both. Oh my goodness.4 (31m 31s):What you, what you don't have. What I remember is big hair. Oh, Well, you're a handsome bald bald man. So you can play.7 (31m 42s):Oh, thank you. Go on. Go on.4 (31m 45s):I will. I will. I will. But I'll start by saying congratulations. JoBeth seal. You survived theater school.7 (31m 51s):I did.4 (31m 52s):Yes. And you survived it with us mostly with bod. You guys are graduated in the same year, I think.2 (31m 58s):Yeah.7 (31m 59s):Yeah, we did. Yeah. Do you remember that year? We were in the same section, Johnny.2 (32m 4s):Here's what I remember about you. We went to a Halloween party together with my roommate with a non theater school, like my best friend, Sasha, who Gina knows Sasha and Carsey. And we went to a freaking Halloween party in the suburbs and you had the best costume ever. It was a robot. And you remember any of this? You look,7 (32m 24s):Oh my God. I don't know2 (32m 25s):Brilliance.8 (32m 27s):It7 (32m 27s):Was like, I was a robot. Wow.2 (32m 29s):Like a whole situation. And it was like, we had the best time, but it was like, we didn't know anybody. It was like in the suburbs. It was my friend.4 (32m 37s):Did he make2 (32m 38s):That? Yeah, it was all made. It was so good. Anyway, that's what I remember. That's the main thing that I remember being like, oh my God. His costume. Brilliant. So anyway, I do remember. I mean, I remember, yeah. I mean, remember bits and pieces. I remember that, like I thought you were like super nice. And also, yeah, that we all just were trying to figure it out. Like nobody knew what the hell was going on.7 (33m 7s):Yeah, no, I remember when you joined our section, we were so excited that like someone new was going to like join and we all knew of you, but we didn't know. And I remember that year, you were just like a breath of fresh air. You were just so direct and funny. And you know, I think at that point we were just getting a little tired and you just brought a lot of really beautiful energy into our sections.2 (33m 36s):Oh, the other thing I want to say before I forget is that I, when I was doing research on you, like just to catch up on you and stuff, there's other people with your name that, that some, some before like wild, like one, one guy, like a couple like therapists, couple has Lisa and Joe have your name and, and are like infomercial kind of P anyway, I just thought it was hilarious. And then there's another actor.7 (34m 3s):Yes. There's another actor in what had actually happened one year. It was, I was put in the DePaul, the theater school, alumni newsletter that I was on six feet under and all of this stuff. So people started reaching out to me and it was the other job.4 (34m 20s):That's funny. That's funny. I wonder about those alumni. So it's just, I mean, I guess you've answered the question is somebody scouring the trains or whatever, looking for names that they2 (34m 32s):Used to be John Bridges. And then I think also people submit themselves, which is so, I mean, I get it, but it's also like, I don't have time for that. I mean, like, I mean, not that I'm doing anything that fancy, but like, I, there's something weird about being like, Hey John Bridges, can you put me in the alumni news? I don't know. I'd rather be4 (34m 55s):Except for like your, but that's what it is. Right. That's what you have to do. That's what it's all about the network. I mean, I haven't ever done it either, but2 (35m 6s):I mean, I did it when I had a solo show because I thought, okay, in Chicago, maybe people will come, so I have done it, but I, I just,7 (35m 14s):Yeah, for promo, I think it might be helpful in some instances, but2 (35m 19s):Whatever it is4 (35m 22s):Actually the beginning you're from long island7 (35m 25s):And you have4 (35m 26s):Zero long island accent. Was that very intentional?7 (35m 30s):Well, it's so funny. You mentioned that because I think that was such a big thing my first year. And it really kind of changed the way I speak, because I felt like I was a fast talking like long island kid. And my speech really slowed down that first and second year. Cause I was so conscious of it. So the, after that first year, I think, you know, yoga between yoga and all the voice and speech stuff, like I was like standing up straight and talking like standard American, like, you know, whatever that was that we learned.4 (36m 5s):Like you had to do that in your, not what, even when you weren't on stage.7 (36m 10s):I mean, that was, that was a thing I think back then, I didn't really understand the distinction. I felt like I, I, I had to speak that way on stage and then it just transferred over to my real life. Also, you know, looking back, I was like, oh, you know, I wish I would have been able to make the distinction in my real life that I don't have to speak like this, but it's hard to learn something and practice it. Like I couldn't just practice that in class. It would have just been too difficult, but I started speaking a lot slower just because I was really conscious of the all sounds I was making, like all the sounds and, and I, it was pretty thick. I don't know. I don't know if you all knew me back then, but it was, there were some words I had never heard pronounced.4 (36m 52s):Well, I don't recall you as, I mean, I was surprised to learn that you were from long island and looking at your history because yeah. It seemed, it seemed like you had erased it. So were you the only person from, from New York in your class?7 (37m 10s):No. There were a cup there. Ed Ryan was also from New York. Yeah, but he was from Scarsdale, I think. And then I w I might've been the only one from long island, at least in my class that I remember.4 (37m 23s):And did you have DePaul as your, I mean, is that, was that the school you wanted to go to or your safety?7 (37m 30s):Oh my God. I was all about NYU. I was all about it. And then even before I went to, you know, before I started applying for colleges, my senior year, I went to a summer program at NYU. And at the time there was something called musical theater, works conservatory. And I spent a whole summer doing like conservatory training and, you know, to earn college credit. And it was such a great program at the time too, because we took classes during the day. And then the evening we saw shows and did all this cultural stuff. So after that experience, I was, I just wanted to go to NYU and I just loved it. I loved the city and then I didn't get, I didn't get in.7 (38m 16s):And then I was deciding between DePaul and Emerson and I visited both schools. And when I went to visit DePaul, I know you all had Bradley Walker. And I stayed, he probably doesn't remember this, but I totally stayed with him in the dorms. And the other weird kind of quirky thing I remember was I, I went to his dorm room and he was eating dog food. Like he was eating out of a box2 (38m 44s):And wait,7 (38m 45s):Wait, yeah, hear me out here. So he's like, do you want some? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, peer pressure. So I ate the dog food, like out of the box, it was like dry dog food. And he's like, yeah, it's just, we like how it tastes and it's cheap. And then like, after he told me it was just like cereal and they just like, say like, they put this cereal in the dog food box anyway,4 (39m 9s):Like7 (39m 11s):Quirky things that I remember about that weekend.2 (39m 15s):So here's the thing as a 46 year old tired ass lady. I'm like, who the fuck has time to be switching foods into different modifiers. I can barely get my shoes on 18 year olds who are in college. Like the good quirky marketing. It reminds me of something they might've done. And say that movie with Janine Gruffalo and Ben Stiller, whatever that movie was that they did about gen X, whatever, like reminds me of something like, Hey, let's switch the food into the, but anyway. Okay. So was he nice to you?7 (39m 54s):Oh my God. He really sold me on the school and not, he wasn't trying to sell me on the school. He's like, this is where we do this. And he took me on a tour of the theater school and, you know, I loved that it was in an elementary school and I visited in June, which is like a beautiful time of being in Chicago. And I mean, after that experience, I was just completely sold and I, it was cool. Cause I went by myself like my mom, just let me just go to all these places to visit and like got off the, you know, I took the train, I took the L to the school and everything and, and it was, it was cool. I felt like it was a really good fit. So it worked out nicely.4 (40m 33s):You did a bunch of things though. After theater school, you moved back to New York and got very involved in theater. So tell us about that epoch.7 (40m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think I did a couple of shows in Chicago and I had major FOMO of what was going on in New York and I felt like I was missing out. And I think, you know, I had audition for a lot of stuff in Chicago and I just didn't wasn't landing things. And then, you know, when I moved to New York, I wanted to focus more on directing and writing. And I did an intern. I did a couple of internships, but I did want to ensemble studio theater. And that was super helpful because as part of the internship, you were in an actor director writing lab and yeah, and it was, I think the first time I had been in a place where you can kind of cross over and do different things.7 (41m 27s):And also the, we had a, a lab director who really kind of just taught me, like how to like give feedback to myself and how to give feedback to others. Like the big thing that she would always ask is like, after we would present some kind of work, she would just say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward with the work? Like, what is important to you? And we really, you know, we had a small group and we really experimented within that. And then after the internship, some of us kind of like stuck together. And I mean, at the time too, there were, there were a ton of interns. There was like over 20 and they gave us the keys to the theater.7 (42m 7s):And we had like, there were a couple of theaters there. So we would do our shows like on the top floor of, of, of the theater there on 52nd street and, you know, hang out after and drink beer. And like, I mean, something that probably is not happening today, but it was, it was a really co like a good landing pad for me. So just to meet other people.2 (42m 28s):Okay. So if we take it back a little bit, like when you work, cause I'm curious about that. So like, you didn't have FOMO about LA, right? Like moving to LA when everyone moved to LA or did you like when you graduated from DePaul and I asked, because now you're here obviously in Southern California, but also because it sounds like New York to you based on you, the summer program you did and stuff was sort of the, like in your brain, like the utopia Mecca for actors, but you, so you felt a FOMO, but like showcase wise. Cause I love the good showcase story where you focused on New York, like, cause you did we, did we go to, no, we didn't go to New York, but we7 (43m 7s):Did know.2 (43m 8s):So how, how did you make the choice to go? Not to LA? Like how did that go down?7 (43m 13s):Yeah. I mean, we took a, that film class our last year with Gerard. I don't know if you remember him.2 (43m 20s):Fuck.7 (43m 21s):Yeah. We took a film class. Yeah. We all, we all did. I think that's what his name was and that2 (43m 29s):Class.7 (43m 30s):Yeah. We took a film class where we did a scene on camera and I, the it call experience was like horrific.2 (43m 39s):Oh, I remember it was bad for all of them.7 (43m 43s):I have like a little breakdown after, cause I was like, I don't, I just felt very, you know, self-conscious, I mean, we had spent like years doing theater and I never really looked at myself. And then I was not like a theater snob at all. Like I was willing to do anything. I would do voice or do film, but I just didn't feel comfortable with the camera at all. And I think by the last year or two, I really started to get more interested in like experimental theater and performance art. And I felt there was more of that in New York at the time or maybe I was just unaware of it in Chicago and I wanted to lean in that direction.7 (44m 25s):And that's another reason I kind of went to New York also.2 (44m 28s):Yeah.7 (44m 29s):Yeah. I wasn't seeing that as much. Like I remember there were some companies in Chicago that did some really beautiful pieces, like all the Mary Zimmerman pieces I loved. And I was like, Ugh, that was like, all those were like the Northwestern kids who were in those shows.2 (44m 45s):Oh, I remember what metamorphosis happened. And everyone was like, we all want it to be in metamorphosis. And none of us got in because she of course chose Northwestern kids because that's who she taught and that's where she went. Right. And so whatever.7 (44m 59s):Yeah. And I ended up seeing that in New York anyway, when it was there. So it was like anything like that would eventually go to New York to,4 (45m 6s):And you did a lot, you worked a lot in New York theater, you worked at roundabout and you, and you worked for the Neo futurists, which I love that. I mean, I, that show too much light makes the baby go blind, which is now called infinite infinite wrench, wrenches that it's called.7 (45m 23s):Yeah.4 (45m 24s):I love that show. Tell me everything about being a part of that.7 (45m 28s):Yeah. You know, at that I first saw that show in Chicago when I was like right outside of, no, I saw my first year when I was 17 and then someone from DePaul had like a friend of mine had brought me to it and I, I loved it and then kind of forgot about it. And then I auditioned in Chicago for it when I was 21 and I was just not ready for it. And then when I moved to New York, I was there for maybe two or three years. I discovered that they had had started the show there. And I mean, that really kind of shifted so much for me. I, well, for one thing, it was like, it was so great to meet a group of people who were passionate about the same thing, like the aesthetic, you know, passion about being ensemble.7 (46m 19s):And that show is like so challenging and fun and stressful, but also like super rewarding. And also at the same time, you know, it kind of changed the dynamic I had as an actor and artists with the audience, because it's so rare as an actor that you get to just like be yourself on stage. It's like rarely happens at all. So to on a weekly basis, just stand in front of an audience and like be yourself. And then, and then also think about like what you want to say and how you want to say it. And you know, like through movement or puppetry or through humor or through earnestness or do something concise conceptual or abstract or, you know, and I did some like crazy shit,2 (47m 10s):Like what was your, what was your favorite cause like what I'm noticing and what as you're talking, what I'm remembering about you is that yeah. Like literally you, you, my experience of you and when we knew each other back in the day, was that yet you did not, you, you, you wanted to sort of push the envelope and step outside of the bounds of what we were learning at the theater school. Like you just had an experimental, like heart about you. So I guess my question is like onstage. What do you remember about to my, about the Neo futurist that like really sticks to you? Like performance wise? Like what was so special? Like when did she7 (47m 48s):So many things? I mean, I think, well, the craziest thing I did was take a shit on stage with someone2 (47m 57s):I never heard about this.7 (47m 60s):It was actually a very like poignant play about like writing. It was with my mentor who was, and then you have you trust and we have the same name and we both, the play was actually called untitled number two. And we had this thing in common before we would perform, we would always like have to take a pill. So I just wrote this play about that experience. And to me, like he was, you know, offered me so much advice and so many, you know, really kind of mentored me through being a new, a futurist. And so I wrote this play in homage to him and, you know, as a gift and a sense. So at the end we like produced.7 (48m 41s):We like, we were actually, we put in a bucket and then at some point we, you know, we turned the bucket over and then, which was really hard to do. Cause I have to like, hold my poo in all day. And I was like, it was not sure what was going to come out at a certain, but I also did other2 (48m 54s):So. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess because, okay, so like the old summit stage fright I think is about being a failure for me on stage, like being embarrassed, being shamed, being all the things, right? Like that's what makes me panic on stage. Right? So this is an experience where you literally are like showing your insides, like take excrement, like on stage for the sake of art and for the sake of, but like, was it freeing?7 (49m 26s):Yeah. I mean, there was, I really never forget when I first run that I did my good friend, Erica, who I met during the new futurist and who I'm still really good friends with now. She said to me, she's like, if you fuck up, you have to let it go because you'll ruin the moment that you're in. And the next moment. So there are so many times, I mean, it was, we would learn things like the day before, the day of, and it was inevitable that we were going to fuck up. So all of that perfectionism, you had to kind of leave at the door. And, and that moment I remember sometimes like being on stage and being like, I have a line coming up. I don't even know what that line is.7 (50m 9s):And here you are. And then you just kind of like, say whatever comes out of your mouth and it's just becomes part of the show. So it was really freaky for me, who I felt like at school, I was not a perfectionist, but I did do a lot of homework to make things go. Right. I had to just let, I mean, another moment to, I, we did this like dance number where we had, we had these masks, there weren't masks. They were like plastic plates with smiling faces on them. And we didn't get a chance to rehearse the dance number before we went on. So I was beat backstage and someone was telling me like what the dancing2 (50m 48s):Score.7 (50m 52s):So I had my glasses on, like with this plate pressed against me and I hardly could see. And I was just like, all right, I'm just going to like follow the person in front of me and just see what happens. And then I think that's on YouTube somewhere of me like,4 (51m 7s):Oh, well, they wait. So I'm glad that you started to speak to being a perfectionist in undergrad because it wasn't until you use that word about perfectionism that I, that rung a bell. Oh yeah. You were perfectionists or, or maybe you were just one of these people that, you know, like we've talked to before who took theater school rarely, seriously, and maybe didn't care for people who didn't. I don't know if that's true about you or not, but how have you wrestled with your perfectionism as a performer and as a writer?7 (51m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think what was school? I had like a very different experience. My first two years, compared to the second two years, I was certainly a big nerd my first two years. And I wish I had it cause when I knew this was coming up and I couldn't find it, I think it's at my sister's place someplace, but I have a journal that I kept used to write after every acting class. And I would write like what happened and then I'd give myself some like insights and recommendations for like next time I still have it. It's just, I have to find it. And when I do I'll, I'll, I'll send you. Cause I think I was, it was, I definitely documented everything that happened.7 (52m 25s):Like breakdowns, like being really angry, being really happy, like all that kind of stuff.2 (52m 32s): coffee table book, like, like, like acting notes from a teenager, like, like, or like, I don't know. I think it could be really great, but, and with pictures, cause you're an artist the whole, anyway,7 (52m 49s):I will, I will scan a good journal entry and I'll send it to both of you when I find it. But I think, you know, writing that really helped me, I think thrive the first two years was like the writing aspect of it and reflecting on it. And I think in terms of what I do now, like I need breaks and that's how I handle like dealing with perfectionism. Now I sometimes like I've just kind of started to develop a writing practice the past two years. And I know when it's time to stop. And usually it's when I stop, I know I need to like go for a walk and reflect or just let it go.7 (53m 29s):And then like,2 (53m 30s):'cause, that's what your friend Erica told you. It's like, you have to, we have to just let it go at a certain point in order to not because what happens right. As fear begets, fear, begets perfectionism. So on stage, if something goes awry, since we're all artists, we can relate, like if something goes awry and you stay stuck in the earth, wryness you really miss out on what's coming next. And also you're destined to fuck up. What's coming next. So that letting go for you, it sounds like it's really important in order to move on now, even not on stage. Like, and so you, you say like writing and walking helps you let go and you've realized that like to move on.2 (54m 10s):Yeah.7 (54m 11s):Yeah. And I it's so funny. We were talking about letting go. Cause when I auditioned for the Neos, we had to write a play about our biggest challenge. And to me it was letting go and I wrote this play, well, we didn't say any words, but we, there was a paper shredder on stage. And then I wrote out like a word or two on a piece of paper and then like put it through the shredder. And then we gave like, we held out pens or markers to the audience and then like the audience could come up and write something and then shred it. And it was like very powerful. Cause like some people would write like, you know, my, you know, my ex-boyfriend or like envy or, you know, last seasons, like fashion collection or whatever it is, you know, that they wanted to let go of.7 (54m 59s):But I think to me that is something that's still, you know, resonates of like how, how do I let go? You know, like through meditation, through like the walking for me is a meditation and that's, that's usually like, it's a big part of my process just to take the time, you know, to take the time between creation, I guess.4 (55m 20s):What have you learned that you've had to let go in terms of how you saw yourself as an artist when you started school, versus when you came out, like in the time that you've been able to reflect? What, what I mean? Cause we, we had lots of ideas about our spas and I had lots of ideas about ourselves and who we were as artists and whoever people. And most of those were all completely, they were wrong. So, so this podcast has been a process of letting go of some of those antidotes. What's it been like for you?7 (55m 53s):Yeah, I mean a big thing for me at school I remember was I know I've listened to a ton of episodes and I feel like I was really at war with myself. You know, I, the criticism from the teachers wasn't as big of a deal as the, as the criticism that I gave myself. Like I, I never, there was no self validation at all. Like even when I did something, well, I never told myself I, there was always something wrong. And I think that has been a big part of my adulthood is just learning to give myself a gold star and to self validate and then also to learn, to understand permission, to get feedback.7 (56m 44s):And you know, I think that was something that was always a little challenging at theater school too, was, you know, I like, you know, the, the lab director that I mentioned earlier at EST, who would say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward? So often at school we weren't in control of the feedback that we got. So I think sometimes it was really challenging for me when I was like, I'm not ready for all of this or I don't need to know that. Why are you telling me that now? Or, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't control any of that. And maybe I needed to let go of that. And I did have a little bit of a habit and, and a little reputation for walking out of class.7 (57m 32s):Yeah. And it was, it was something I had to address and something, a lot of teachers talk to me about. And I mean, often it was because I was bored or just like needed a break, or I was like, I didn't want to like watch someone or whatever it was. And2 (57m 46s):I think it's really bold. Like what the fuck, man? I wish the one time I did that, I, I like got in big trouble for it. And like, but like whatever the reason is you were on some level trying to take care of yourself. Right. And so good for you. Like, fuck that. I don't know. I like it. I probably would be like, oh, oh, that's awesome. And secretly I'm like, oh, the audacity, the amazing audacity of Joe to walk out and inside. I'm probably like, I wish I could do that. But anyway, so7 (58m 20s):Yeah, I mean, to me it was, it was self care in a way. And that was before we knew anything about that. And you know, when I think of like what I was going through at the time too, was it was such an emotional time for me, like for so many reasons. And, you know, like, you know, being away from home and coming out of the closet and like, you know, like all the money struggles I had and like, I, you know, it just kind of gave me, I was just learning how to take care of myself. And then on top of all those things, like studying drama, like, okay, this is the perfect time to study drama now, you know, and even like doing all the things that we did, like, especially the movement stuff always had kind of profound effect on me.7 (59m 8s):Cause we were like retraining how to the nervous system, that sense of like freeing our natural voice and doing all these things. So I was really emotional, like the first two years a lot. And I would just leave to kind of like collect my thoughts and not like have a major breakdown in class or dumb about something that yeah.4 (59m 25s):To modulate. Right. Because that's what you, what you definitely have no control over is modulating the flow of feedback because it's not just feedback from your teachers. We're getting feedback from our peers. And sometimes you'd get feedback from peers that you didn't really respect them. So you were like, I'm not sure what to, I'm not sure what to make of this.2 (59m 42s):What's becoming clear. Is that based on what you experienced after that with the lab is that we needed a feedback class. Like we needed a literal class of how to give and receive feedback at the theater school would have been fucking phenomenal.7 (59m 58s):Oh my God. I know it wasn't until years later when I was a Neo that we learn, the, the show was on, I think east fourth street and right next to his New York theater workshop. And they do the Liz Lurman feedback method, which I love. And I'm like, oh my God, that was really a beginning point for me because then it just to follow that structure is brilliant. Like, just start with what you were struck by. I don't need your opinion right away on what to change. Look, just tell me what you were struck by what moments did you enjoy? What, you know, what questions do you have and then, or asking questions yourself. And I mean, maybe the school does that now, but I think that was really, that was really big for me.7 (1h 0m 39s):I, for any artist, whether you're a dancer or2 (1h 0m 41s):No matter whether you're a child getting feedback from your parent or a spouse, getting feedback from your other spouse or whatever, it, it, it works in all levels. And I think that what it does though, is disrupts the hierarchy of the power in an institution. And so nobody likes that. I mean, really like teachers need to feel like they're in control, right. Instead of what struck me, let's stay curious, let's stay open. That's not how conservatories are made. Like that's not the whole goal of them. And then maybe I hope they're changing, but like, yeah. Oh, I just love that you haven't had that experience after school with both the, the, the work in New York and the, the ensemble work you did and the Neo futurists sort of sh it sounds like it's really shaped your work moving forward as an artist, right?7 (1h 1m 34s):Yeah. I mean, it was really, I have to say, I mean, after that moment of being a Neo futurists, I was like, I don't think I can play a character ever again. I don't really know it can happen cause I, it just didn't, I, it really changed the dynamic I had with an audience. And I, I guess I didn't want to go back to what it was before also being a Neo. I had to let go of really all the things I had learned at school, in a sense, I mean, all I could really use was like maybe some of the voice and speech work we had done, but I, I mean, yeah, it really kind of shifted things for me, but being in that ensemble was great.7 (1h 2m 14s):Cause I, I, you know, we really learned how you really need to learn how to give and take and to, and, but also be an advocate for your own work because every week, you know, you had to kind of bring in something and you had to pitch it. You had to sell it to the five or six people who were deciding what was in the show that week. So it was, I think it's an experience that I, they do workshops, but like, I think everyone should do a workshop in that way because the show itself is living newspaper. So you have to think of like, what is relevant right now? What's relevant to this audience what's relevant in this moment, you know? And how can I bring that on stage?4 (1h 2m 55s):So wait, so you had an interest young in musical theater, but did you follow that? Have you remained interested in musical theater?7 (1h 3m 6s):No. You know what? I know you all have talked about the brochure and so I completely read the brochure wrong when I chose DePaul. Well, a couple of things I had for musical theater, I wanted to get a BFA musical theater. And there aren't a lot of schools that offer that. So I, you know, when I didn't get into some NYU, I was like, okay, well, what other school? So I had to be flexible with that. But the brochure I remember for DePaul the last year we took ensemble class. And I actually thought that that meant that we were in a theater company.7 (1h 3m 48s):So I not only thought that the, like, after you graduated, you're part of an ensemble theater company. So I told everyone, I'm like, I'm going to DePaul. And then I'm in a theater company. And then I thought that like, that was one crazy thing. And then also the movement stuff, which was, I actually really loved, like all the movements that we did. Like, I'm a big, like I'm, I was a big fan of moving to music. Like that was my jam at school. So I thought I was going to be getting some dancing training there, but I kind of, I did let it go. Certainly like, as the years of the2 (1h 4m 26s):Rest of the school, were you in any7 (1h 4m 29s):I wasn't and I really wanted to be, I, we did like Peter pan one year. And Were you in that?2 (1h 4m 38s):No, but Eric was saying was Susan Lee and she talks about it on the podcast.7 (1h 4m 45s):I heard that one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. But yeah, no, I didn't do any musical theater stuff. I did love all the, we learned like period dance, which I was a big fan of, like, that was2 (1h 4m 57s):Me too. There was a fucking structure and it was like slow. And like, there was a way to do it. I remember the Elizabethan situation maybe, or like there was like this dance with Romeo and Juliet situation. And I loved that. I felt like there were actual steps we could take, there was a pacing to it.4 (1h 5m 21s):And you knew if you got it or not. Right. Like it was, it wasn't nebulous. Like you either understood how to do it or you didn't.7 (1h 5m 27s):Yeah. I thought I was like, I love the ritual of it. And it was, it was great to learn about history in that way too. And I liked all the Labon stuff that we did with Betsy, I thought,2 (1h 5m 38s):Is that the buoyancy and the, this and the, that.7 (1h 5m 42s):Yeah. I loved all of that stuff.2 (1h 5m 44s):Yeah.7 (1h 5m 45s):I mean, it was, you know, it was physically challenging too. We, I remember that thing we did with it was called like chaos, where you had to like go crazy. And4 (1h 5m 55s):I don't remember that.7 (1h 5m 57s):Yeah.2 (1h 5m 57s):It was crazy. And I remember I got such a stiff neck. I had to go to the emergency Because we were going crazy. And the next day I was like, I think I broke my neck, but I didn't break my head. So I had to go to that. And they were like, what did you do where he's like at a headbanging concert? I was like, no, it's a theater school now.4 (1h 6m 23s):Oh, we got another one. We got another theater,2 (1h 6m 27s):Chaos lady. I was like, I can't move. Yeah.4 (1h 6m 31s):Okay. But wait, so tell us about Susan Laurie parks, 365 plays and 365 days.7 (1h 6m 39s):Yeah. So that was, we, the Neos were given a handful of S of days for our scripts from that. And then as an ensemble, we were tasked with like interpreting it in any way that we wanted to. So it was cool to like, do a show at the public. And I remember we did one piece called FedEx to my ex where we had, like, we used actual FedEx boxes, like maybe like 50 or 60 of them. And we, we had letters on them or words and like kind of configured them to, to give messages out to the audience on these boxes.7 (1h 7m 24s):So I love that experience just cause we, as an ensemble, get to LA to celebrate this playwright with other like theater companies from, I think it was from, from all over the place. And it felt, again, like another professional experience, something that we didn't really get a chance to do, because the show that we did on a weekly basis was like on knew sports street at like 11 o'clock at night, you know? And this was more of a, like, you know, a different audience for us, which wasn't,2 (1h 7m 53s):When did you stop working with, is it like once a Neil always said, Neil, can you stop pack in and do stuff? Or like, how does it work?7 (1h 8m 1s):You can. Yeah. So the, I was like a regularly scheduled Neo for about two years or so. And then I jumped in to do the show at other times. And like we did a pride show that I would do often, or I would come in and do a run. And then we also had primetime shows. So I was involved in like two or three prime time shows as either a performer or assistant director or a collaborator in some way. And I did that up until I did some marketing for the company. I did that up until I moved to LA. And even my first year in LA, I did a project at here art center with my, one of my theater heroes chucked me that I went back to to, to see.7 (1h 8m 50s):So, but yeah, when I moved here, I kind of just decided to let, let that go.2 (1h 8m 60s):They're always themes that emerged with people's lives when they come on the show. So for you then stop and starting, like ed Ryan's is being interrupted and yours is like letting things go. So when did you arrive in LA?7 (1h 9m 13s):I moved here. It's been five years. So 2017 or so. And you know, I finally feel like now I'm kind of getting settled. I mean, I'd go back to New York a lot just to hang out and spend time there. And I work remotely. So I'm able to like go there and like work for a couple of weeks. I've learned not to stay too, too long. Cause last summer I was there for six weeks and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm in my old life.4 (1h 9m 42s):How do you satisfy? If you still have a craving for performance, how do you set it? Because now you have your own company you're self-employed, which is awesome. How do yo

Interview: We talk to Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker about a special moment with F. Murray Abraham, finding friendship in a cutthroat environment, having substance abuse and authority issues, mind-f***ery, the cloistered nature of conservatories, using skills gained at TTS on set, taking an eclectic approach to acting, the tricky dance of teaching an art form, PR Casting, Does a Tiger Wear a Necktie, when William Burroughs discovered a copy of the Fledgling Press, a zine which Dave created.FULL TRANSCRIPT:Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:08):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:10):and I'm Gina Pulice.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:11):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:15):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:20):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:29):So they concocted this plan to make A shelf in our library, like right above the door frame, that goes all the way around the room. So I am not kidding you. So, soJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:49):Pictures, pictures, put them on the website. Okay.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:53):Here's the deal though? My son, my, my middle child is so smart. He has never helped us with these type of projects before, because he doesn't really like, he traditionally hasn't really liked working with his hands, but this time he wanted to, it was really his idea. He wanted to do it. And he's such a math brain that he insisted on doing heavy. Pre-planning like he made us model, not a, he's calling it a model. It's not really a model. he's like got a piece of paper. He drew plans for it. He did all kinds of measurements. He used. Yeah, it was great. And he goes, listen, if we don't plan it out like this, then we get halfway through and we run into a snag and then we stop working on it, which is exactly what the oldest one. And I have done on a number of projects, including building a full-sized Playhouse on our back -Yes ma'am yes. Ma'am. I spent thousands of dollars on wood and nails and power tools so that we could have this joint project of building a Playhouse. And we didn't think it through one single bit. We, we found some plans on the internet and we went through and we made it. I got, we got all the way to the roof and the roof is what did us in? We couldn't, we couldn't get up high enough on the thing. We didn't have a high enough ladder and it's not in a great enough position. We couldn't put the roof on it, sat there for a year. And then it was time for the bar mitzvah, which we were having the party at our house. So we had to, and we had to take the whole thing down and we never finished it. So the other one goes, listen, we're I don't want to do that. I don't want to go through all this work and give it up. So he planned it and boy did he plan it with an inch of his life and it's going up and it's looking great. And I will send you picturesJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:44):That is done. Oh my gosh. Merry Christmas. [inaudible] freaking Christmas. That's fantastic.Dave Dastmalchian (00:02:51):I have one other cute little story to tell you.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:55):I took, well, I told her, um, I told C's, um, hummus story is Sasha and Chrissy and Tilly. Oh. Saw them from afar. Um, we saw them outside. Uh, they're amazing. And they laughed so hard. It was. Yeah. So it's for people that don't know. I mean, we've probably said, I'd probably made you tell it like four times, but you, but my version, this is how I tell it is that, um, your daughter says, mom, what, what kind of stuff do they have to eat in prison? Do they have like bad food? And you're like, yeah, it's probably not that great. She goes like hummus? They cracked up anyway.Dave Dastmalchian (00:03:37):She's she's hilarious. So, um, I was sick yesterday and she came home from the bus. Oh, earlier in the day she had -I was taking her to school and this little girl had these really cute boots on these little there's some, some, Ugg, type boots. She's like, Oh, I love those boots. And I S and she had said something to me about it before. And I said, yeah, you know, I looked for those, but I couldn't, I don't see where they are. I, I, you know, I can't, I can't find any of the information for it. So she comes home yesterday. Oh, this is so sweet. She brings me a plate with sliced up bananas, um, something else, and the little container of yogurt that she got in her lunch that she brought home. Cause this is kind of sugary yogurt that I never buy for her Trix yogurt. And she covered it in saran wrap. And she wrote me a note. I get, well, note, and it's a picture of the two of us. And it said, mom, get, well soon. I love you. And you, and it says at the bottom turnover, turnover, they have such, she goes, I got the information about the boots!Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:04:53):I'm telling you. She's genius.Dave Dastmalchian (00:04:56):She writes, You can get them at col that's Kohl's or you could get them at Kohl's or, um, uh, TRG I T get at targetJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:05:12):She's genius.Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:14):She followed up this morning. She goes, so did you, did you check out Kohl'sSpeaker 4 (00:05:31):[inaudible]?Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:38):Hm. We've moved a lot. I mean, not as much as you, but we've moved a lot in the time that we've been together. 20 whatever years we probably moved, I don't know, 15 times and, or maybe less than that, but, uh, between 10 and 15 times. And we, one of the things that we lug around from place to place is a lot of mementos. A box of mementos turned into two boxes, turned into two boxes each. Now we have kids, they have their boxes. So we're at the point where not only because of this for other reasons, but we have to store all the mementos in a storage facility. This is the dumbest possible thing. I mean, it also has furniture from, Oh, it has furniture. But like, anyway, we store boxes in boxes. Probably those plastic tubs, you know, the big plastic tubs would probably have like six plastic tubs that are of mementos.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:06:40):Wow.Dave Dastmalchian (00:06:41):Aaron has, you know, the, the little plaque he got when he won a tennis tournament in eighth grade is it's like a lot of things. Okay. I've gotten better at paring things down. But then when you have kids, you feel like you shouldn't throw anything away because they're the ones who are going to be going through your stuff one day and who are going to be mad. If you didn't save all of their stuff. Now, of course you cannot save all of their stuff, but like, what's your stance on mementos? What do you keep? What do you toss? What's -do you feel guilty about it, et cetera?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:07:20):It's a great, that's a great topic. I, um, feel mixed. We have, so, yes, we've moved so much and we too have mementos. Um, there's the Marie Kondo, you know, that if it doesn't spark joy, but I don't really believe that. Um, I think people should, uh, do what they want to do for the most part. I don't subscribe to a minimalist thing, but I definitely feel like for everything you keep, you should throw out one thing. So, so, so that goes with clothes that goes, and it is really hard. Now, mementos are different because they have sentimental, they have sentimental value, but I'm remembering having to go through, uh, both dead parents' stuff. And most of it is garbage. Like most of them, most of it is like a lighter that my dad had that was engraved with someone's initials. That weren't his, why he probably stole it from somebody. But, um, but I was like, what, what, what? No. And it was a tremendous amount of emotional work to go through this stuff. And, um, yeah, I say get rid of, most of it. I get rid of most of it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:08:42):I mean, I think what it's about is, cause what, what I did with my dad is so when he died, I was right before I got married and he, so he didn't know that I got married or about any of my kids. So I think I really held onto stuff for kind of a long time, because it just felt like I didn't have time to grieve or process or whatever it is. So there are certain things that I, you know, you have your stages, like things you get rid of, like when Aaron's dad died, he came home wearing all of his father's clothes. He had his, and they were all too big pants and his shoes, well, that stuff has started to, it's been about a year, that stuff is starting to go away. So I remember the phases of getting rid of stuff. And it is something about like, you hold onto the, the stuff is like a placeholder for you doing your grieving. So it's like the more you do the work of going through the grieving that's then you, then you feel okay to get rid of the stuff. And the thing about what the kids is, I know something that they don't know, which is that it feels so precious to them now is not going to feel so precious to them. For example, when they go to college or move out and I say, we need to go through this stuff. Now we need to go through and figure out, you know, what you want. And I'm sure that they're going to want to get rid of a lot of stuff, but they also want to keep like, both boys did TaeKwonDo and went through their black belt. And the trophy for a black belt is like, as tall as a person, that's like five feet tall. Those are in storage. We went to storage to get out the Christmas stuff. And my oldest son, he picks up, he goes, this thing was really like a piece of junk. Like it's, you know, cause trophies are just made of plastic cheap metal. Yeah. So I, that was like, okay, you're going to want to get rid of this. That's a good thing. But with the smaller things, like really precious sentimental notes, I feel like keeping, but listen, not every kid or not, every person writes a card that's worth keeping, I'm sorry to say, butJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:10:58):Right. And what you don't and what, and I think what you're doing is by getting rid of the sub stuff is what you're actually doing is making your kids job easier when we all croak. So if you think about it that way, like I act, but they should be allowed maybe one tub each.Dave Dastmalchian (00:11:18):Right. And we shouldn't have to worry when it gets no, no, well, they don't, they only have one tub, but then they have things like the trophies or the other things that they don't want to get rid of. Yeah. I'm feeling like what we should do is it is a annual or at least every few years going through making sure this is still so, because it, it was only recently that the older two wanted to get rid of their schoolwork from kindergarten. Wow. Yeah. They really wanted to. And that's the other thing is like, if it is serving some emotional need, I cut it off. I don't want to cut off, but I also don't want to, I know how it is with the whole storage facility. We got a storage facility that's bigger than what we need. We're just going to fill it up like a goldfish, eating too much and filling up its bowlJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:12:05):And then their stomach explodes. Uh, but I was going to say something that you might do too, is if you're into any kind of ritual is w miles will burn. Um, we will burn stuff in a, in a, like a goodbye stuff. Like, um, if it's sentimental letters and stuff, now it, you know, there's not burning a kindergarten paper on, you know, aardvark, but, but if there's anything have some kind of ritual saying goodbye situation. Um, my sister and I, Oh my gosh. When we went to through the attic, there was a, like a 10 year period where everyone died. Right. And so we had 10 people's ashes. I'm not kidding you. My mother, my father, both three grandparents migrating at Ruth. It was crazy. So we didn't know what to do with all these ashes. We just dumped them in the garden. We are like, and we had a parade of ashes. We just had a ritual. We were like, goodbye, goodbye, aunt, Ruth goodbye. Then they all got mixed together, but we literally headed those cremations of like, not, it was like nine people, but I was like, so you don't want, you don't want stuff to accumulate that, that P that the kiddos are going to have to just go through and be like, I mean, the ashes were fine, but there was so much stuff that I was like, Oh my God, like pictures of people that you cannot name, those got to go. Yeah.Dave Dastmalchian (00:13:31):Right. What about though? Have you ever thrown something away? And then been like, Oh, I wish I hadn't got it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:13:39):But you know what? They were, it was bigger items, actually. Wasn't sentimental stuff. It was like, my mom had this, a couple of chairs and furniture. It was more big stuff. And it doesn't sound like you have tons of big stuff. Um, it sounds like it's more sentimental stuff. Um, but I, I mostly felt like that chair, I should have hold it. It held onto the chair and some of her of dishes and stuff like that. But at the time I was like, no, it's gotta go. It's gotta go. Um, so the other thing that I would say is don't, um, for people is like, don't make any decisions when you're in a heightened, emotional state, because you will save weird and you will throw out stuff that you will. So like, it's good that you go through it once a year. Not in a crisis, not in a, not, you know, after a huge event, but at like when you like a regular checkup to the storage place,Dave Dastmalchian (00:14:36):I think too, I just had this thought what I should do, especially with papers, take pictures, just take pictures of papers. I can, I can even make a book for each of the kids. Like here is five images of all the crap you wanted me to save that I didn't, but I took a picture of it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:14:58):Brilliant. You just thought of that. Brilliant. Yeah. You're a Marie Kondo in your own, right?Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:04):Aye. Aye. Listen, pursuant to our conversation about my home decor. I'm like, let's get rid of it. Let's get rid of it all. Like I have a China cabinet. I mean, come on. I, I, I mean, I have China. I have, I have tried, but I don't need to, it doesn't need to be displayed. Like, it's my prize possession. You know what I mean? It can just go to shelf.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:15:22):I guess that, that leads me to the question for you is, and it goes back to our other conversation, which is, um, do you think you just adopted that because it's what you thought you should do.Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:33):It's 100% that, because I, yeah, I, I learned at an early age, like I remember being on the younger side and, uh, going through something, I forget what it was, birthday, old birthday cards and throwing them away. And my mom being like, you're getting rid of them. You know, she keeps everything. She keeps her, yes, she keeps everything. But I, uh, my middle child is my, uh, icon in this way. At summer camp, you send cards, you know, you're in current and they like to receive mail. So I sent a lot of cards and he received a lot of cards. He comes home from camp. This is not this past summer. But the summary for her, I said, did you get all the cards I sent you? He said, yes, I did. And they were so great. And on my last day of camp, I looked through all the letters that you and Gran and I gave him a kiss through with the trash. And when he said it, I, I had this Pang of like, Oh, you throw them in the trash. But of course it served its purpose. The purpose was to give him something to remember us by while he was at camp it, then it was over. Then he was going to come home and be with us. He didn't need to hold onto it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:16:53):It's not sentimental that way. No. What about clothing? Do you hold onto clothing?Dave Dastmalchian (00:16:58):No, no. I get rid of, I mean, I have my, I have my, I kept my wedding dress and I CA I kept like a few of the kids. Very first ones. These remember the onesies that you made, that you, you, we made at your house. I have the, I have not all of them, but I have some of those, but yeah, I don't get sentimental about clothing. Aaron does. Aaron has his high school, varsity jacket and his first pair of scrubs and his first doctor coat and all this kind of stuff. Oh, wow.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:17:30):Go through your clothing. And you're not a shopper. You don't like to shop for clothes.Dave Dastmalchian (00:17:36):Well, I like to have clothes. I just don't like to shop for them. Yeah, no, I go through, I, yeah, I'll have, did I forget if you were here, you saw my closet. We have, I've never seen your closet. It's technically a walk-in, but not really. It was a very small class. I have always had a very small closet. I've never, I know that if I had a huge closet, I would just collect a bunch of clothes. So it's kind of an and shoe. So it's kind of a good thing that I don't know. That's one thing we sort of keep under control. We, I throw out something maybe like once every week or once every two weeks I get rid of stuff. Really? It's the other stuff. It's the stuff that I feel like I'm supposed to have because I have kids or I'm supposed to have, because, because really a lot of the other people in my life are very sentimental errands. Very sentimental has. My mother is very sentimental. My kids are very sentimental. So I feel like I have to keep all this stuff for them. But I really don't.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:18:31):That was a China cabinet. Was that a purchase that you thought I should have this because I'm an adultDave Dastmalchian (00:18:36):Or did you inherit it? No, we were moving here from the city and we were just both like, well, we need a dining set. And we went to the furniture store was the first time I went to like a real furniture store and they had a matching dining table and chairs with the, with a China cabinet and a, uh, something else. We've got three big pieces. It's all crappy furniture. It was a waste. It was expensive. And it was a waste of money because all furniture that's made past bef you know, since 1950 is crappy furniture, um, dining table. Well, it's big, but it's, it's really like wobbly. It's crappy. It's crappy. So I, I think I'm going to, maybe after the holidays, get rid of the China cabinet, whole King thing. Like it doesn't give me any joy to look at it. It doesn't give, it's just like, here's where we put all the crap that we use on Thanksgiving.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:33):Right? It's more of a storage. It's not a showcase for anything special. What you need to do is get so many snow Globes that then you've got you put those in there, maybe, but that's a huge, you don't really need maybe a different kind of case for the snow Globes.Dave Dastmalchian (00:19:48):Something like that would give me joy, some little bauble, something like that. It's just plates and vases and, and somebody who is in my family has started a collection of something for me that I don't care for. But it's like, you know how it is, the person really wants to collect something for you. And they pick something. They, they have something that they collect and then they go, well, would you like a different version of this thing? I collect it. And you know, and I remember saying once, like, Oh, that's pretty. And next thing I know I've got my, what she considers to be my version of her thing. This is not my mother. I have to feel like I have to say this because this is not my mother. And it's, it's stuff that I feel that I have to make sure is out for when this person comes to my house.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:20:43):Understood, understood. I don't, you know, I think everyone like dead in my family. So I, I, I get free from some of that, like, but I do. There's a part of me that goes, Oh, someone is thinking about you that's collecting something for you. It just, maybe they would ask them if they could collect. You know, I don't knowDave Dastmalchian (00:21:05):To me that the collecting impulse, I don't relate to it. I mean, with the exception of maybe that I like these pretty snow gloves, I I'm not, I don't collect anything. And my mother collects everything. She does. She does. She collects, she has a China pattern. She does a crystal pattern. She collects, um, she's a big reader. So she collects books. She, yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:35):I remember I remember the house on Wayne, right? And it was a duplex. It was a two floor. She had a lot of nice stuff. She had a lot of nice stuff.Dave Dastmalchian (00:21:44):It is, it's all very nice, but it's, it's stuff. It's a lot of stuff. And I'm just finding that. I'm not as into stuff. As I thought I was,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:53):Well, I think the pandemic has done that to people too. It has increased for me. Anyway. It has increased my awareness that like, all this stuff is not going to save us from certain things.Dave Dastmalchian (00:22:06):Not from nothing. It's not going to save you from anything and you have to clean it and you have to store it and you have to move it. And you have to, you feel, for some reason you have to replace it. If it gets broken, like it's just a yoke, it's a yoke. And Aaron and I fantasize. When the kids leave, we're going to get a studio apartment. We're going to have no possessions. And we're going to just do whatever we want. That doesn't have anything to do with buying, maintaining, or storing stuff of anything.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:38):That's brilliant. I think that is a great plan. D my only caveat is please do it in California. That's all I have to say. Yes, yes.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:58):Today on I Survived theater school. We have the fancy friends, Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker. I call them fancy friends because that's what they are. They are fancy. They work. And they work all the time and they're delightful human beings literally think,Dave Dastmalchian (00:23:13):and they have fancy last name. I was making the episode art. I'm like, Oh, this is, of course these two have to have the longest, last name so that they really do. I've ever had. We'll just call him Dave. You guys have seen. Yeah. And you guys have seen them. I mean, not necessarily together, but, um, uh, Dave was his first film role was in, uh, the dark night. So he, I would love to have him back Sometime and ask about Heath ledger, because I bet that he's got a lot to tell about that anyway. So Dave has a, mostly a film career. He's also a screenwriter. He has written a few films that are excellent, including, um, Animals and, uh, All Creatures Here Below two excellent films. And John is a lot on television.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:24:07):Gotcha. Uh, he was on Jack Ryan as one of the big, big leads. And he, and they're in an outstanding film called Teacher together. So that's somethingDave Dastmalchian (00:24:18):Right. And the two of them wanted to do the interview together because they're such close friends and they shared a lot of memories. And it was interesting to have as it's our first duo. It was interesting to explore their friendship as a way that they both survived theater school. So please enjoy Dave, the small shin and John who can anchor.Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:40):You got to call her up again and ask her to do all right.Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:44):I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:25:06):Uh, w I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience, like together as well as a part, but like my first question for you is, did you love each other right away?Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:22):I don't, I don't know. John, did youDave Dastmalchian (00:25:26):Well, for sure,Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:30):Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. Uh, so I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gita were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John, um, was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place. And, um, it was hard to come into because it's such a competitive environment and it's such a, um, intense environment. And I was both competitive and intense. So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard, cause you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection.Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:27):You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such, uh, a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable,John Hoogenakker (00:26:46):I'm a cuddler.Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:47):sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw. Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star Wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.John Hoogenakker (00:27:16):Um, no, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and Iyisha and, uh, snuggling ghanaba, um, you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, uh, jeez, I just remember, uh, I remember Dave's, um, it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think, um, that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, um, such a driving force in Dave's career, um, is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity, and he's constantly pumping that into the world. And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. Um, and I think I was drawn to that in Dave, uh, yeah, from the giddy-up, butGina Pulice (00:28:10):Also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?John Hoogenakker (00:28:23):Uh, I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I, to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, um, there was so, uh, it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, um, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted, um, positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave, uh, just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really, uh, enjoyed and appreciated. And, um, yeah. And so I think that was, uh, that was, um, it was, it was Dave's, um, his, his sort of genuine vibe that I wasJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:29:20):Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ed ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, starstruck, I, but when I, but there is sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, um, I don't know. I'm just so glad you guys found each other and that you're friends. It's like, no, it's not. That's how I feel. Yeah. That's how I feelDave Dastmalchian (00:30:06):The work and outside of our mutual, passionate love for the theater acting film, um, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, um, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. Um, and obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff, but, um, you know, I've been through, uh, the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school you're taught, um, that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of, um, during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, um, and, and it was, it was, um, I'm very grateful, um, and, uh, many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, um, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely ups. We were in trouble a lot, um, because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And, uh, neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors that get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, um, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from, um, uh, Glen Gary, Glen Ross for, um, second year, uh, scene study work with Joe [inaudible]. And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're gonna, you're gonna get in on this heist, or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide by Bob Marley thing. And, um, and so we had to speak special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study, uh, workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And, um, I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus.John Hoogenakker (00:33:07):And it was where it was history of dramatic lit I think,Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:12):where nobody cheated. And he, um, he Through the fees that he was working on so quickly, and he was getting frustrated, like stop with the, stop with the presentation, like w Let's work these.John Hoogenakker (00:33:28):And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life!Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:38):He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh Eve kind of moment where we could, so we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, Whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like "that's F Murray Abraham!"]. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes.John Hoogenakker (00:34:01):Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other, like, well, that's all I had. And that's all I got Dave, you went toDave Dastmalchian (00:34:15):Slowik Turned to me and John and slowok. goes, "You guys!"Speaker 7 (00:34:18):You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it here? And John's like, yeah, let's do it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:25):What else is in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with? Uh, we, we may do, right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups. Um, and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But IDave Dastmalchian (00:34:45):Was so proud that day, even Though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life. And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school, we continue to collaborate. Um, I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life.John Hoogenakker (00:35:18):Dude, I wanna, I want to jump in because that was such, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. Um, so, so, uh, I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene and I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was giving to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of schmacting him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation.Dave Dastmalchian (00:37:01):[inaudible] mother.Gina Pulice (00:37:05):I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called Undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about as you look back at this time in your life now, uh, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this? How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:38:09):I'm just going to add a caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So, um, I, and, and I, um, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so, um, I, I just always am really hyper aware that like we want, um, say whatever you want, that's what I want to say, whateverDave Dastmalchian (00:38:36):The Vincentian Brotehrs called in the legal team, man, they're coming, you're talking to John and Hey, don't worry. You go first because I know.John Hoogenakker (00:38:52):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery. No. First of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys, uh, attended. Um, and that said, I don't feel like, uh, the mind fuckery that I, um, felt I was, uh, that I received was the result of, uh, some jerk cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we -? You know, who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point. It was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was, uh, at that time intensely cloistered. Um, didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all, uh, to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. Um, I had competed in debate, so I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school. Um, my family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt. Um, and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Um, cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Um, th th that's just, let's just call that an opening, uh, Sally and Dave, you can share it for a little bit,Dave Dastmalchian (00:41:03):Like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated, complex filled with nuance. Lots of gray area came from a tradition steeped in some really, uh, important and impressive theater movements that were more, um, militaristic and disciplinary and really, um, intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, saved me on an almost daily basis sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice, and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations, um, was really important. I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the Joe Slowik way. Here's the Bella Itkin way. Here's the David Avcollie way, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, um, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business. And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to, um, mental wellness with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power, um, in there.John Hoogenakker (00:42:53):It's unbelievable when you look back on it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:42:57):When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced and having sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I hope they'll watch. Um, and I also think that, uh, that there was some abusive behavior, um, that I'll never understand other than they were human beings who, um, you know, who were just people that, um, were, uh, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time. And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of, of tears, of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, um, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful because I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is I really go, wow. That was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happen that I can't believe, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working now.John Hoogenakker (00:44:37):I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not, uh, emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned, uh, as an actor. And I'm talking about like, uh, technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with. So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where, um, you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. Um, and there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child, um, for the realities and the emotional rigors of, uh, of what could end up being a career in a full life, doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child. And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, Oh, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, Oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, uh, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week. And some people are, uh, become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then, um, were kept on after the first year, after the second year. And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell ya, uh, I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear. Um, prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and His being like, you know, some of you will Graduate. Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year and then half the remaining are going to get cut. The second year, that to me was like deeply, uh, ingenuous disingenuous, because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation. And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. Um, we did, uh, an intro in second year, lot called Laughing Wild, and it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight everyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:11):This is fucking crazy! Yeah.John Hoogenakker (00:49:13):And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said Jason Pierce had really long hair. Uh, Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was Hunter, uh, Andre. Um, and it was kind of like Ilko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our haircut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess. Um, you know, cause he'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:49):Totally, no, I mean, I, I think it begs the, so I guess the bigger question here for me and I don't know what you guys think, but, um, th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, um, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And w when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal knife fight at 17 with Hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but that's, that's a big question.Dave Dastmalchian (00:50:41):I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, uh, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair. As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question. Cause I do think like right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a Hollywood audition until they're 18. Um, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18. But yeah, it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.John Hoogenakker (00:52:09):I will say that, you know, I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with, um, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Greg Finkler, Brad Armacost, um, all these amazing, uh, classic classic Chicago actors, um, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, uh, it was the first show in the, in their new space. Um, so they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play. Um, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started. And that was when I saw like these Titans, uh, kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah, I went for another one at PR I didn't get it. Yeah. But it went to blah, blah, blah. And he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends. Um, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college. If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals.Gina Pulice (00:54:08):Yeah. Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a conservatory for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did you pick DePaul?Dave Dastmalchian (00:54:37):For me, it was, it was, uh, it was the, it was fate. It was, um, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was, it was like a miracle of God. And to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, um, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning, um, academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. Um, but I was really, uh, excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school. And I didn't see the path towards, um, the academic dreams that I had for college, um, in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of applying to like arts programs or theater or following a track and drama and hearing that was mindblowing. And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately up to Chicago and my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did, uh, a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie? And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter, uh, very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete and I knew the demands of that and that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. Um, and I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been given this, um, this, this huge scholarship, uh, called the Stanley andJohn Hoogenakker (00:57:35):Good for you, Dave, we're all happy for you.Dave Dastmalchian (00:57:39):That's my story. I'm done as John, just going into the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of Debt as well because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to goJohn Hoogenakker (00:57:58):Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:03):Gina can tell you where we lived on Lill. What was Our landlord's name?Gina Pulice (00:58:11):Earl Pionke!John Hoogenakker (00:58:15):was Lill, the place. It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources? Like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, uh, the deck collapsed right there. Yeah.Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:31):And the tanks? remember the Space Time tanks, John. The floating tanks?John Hoogenakker (00:58:33):what's that?Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:33):Didn't we go do that together? The tanks, the, that the, the deprivation. The sensory deprivation ones?John Hoogenakker (00:58:38):Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, right there. One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for a, no dude. I'm so happy. So that'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Um, good for you. Um, I didn't get a scholarship. I, uh, no, we, no, I totally very similar story except I was not going to be an athlete, uh, ever. Um, I was in, uh, I was, uh, in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, uh, because I got, um, braces and my dad who was a, a local actor in Charlotte, um, was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, um, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave? Yeah. Um, and, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to, uh, senior year, the drama teacher and I'd never taken drama at the theater at the, uh, high school, you know, she would, uh, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach, uh, Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools, see where you can study. And we, I looked into like, uh, a Julliard I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there. And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife, um, auditioned at, uh, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. Um, and I, uh, I came in like late January, early February, uh, and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house. Um, and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned in to this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable. And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, um, and I did, uh, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, gonna be probably like, does a tire tire wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the location for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done, um, a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck. And, um, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. Um, and then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe, and maybe John and possibly bill Brown. Um, and, uh, and I left completely dejected and I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Um, you know,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:02:06):So I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't, I think I bombed, But no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that.John Hoogenakker (01:02:26):Well, that's, you know, I that's so, uh, indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and be able to good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go Places said, no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, uh, but yeah, so we left and I had forgotten my watch. Cause, you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. Um, and, uh, so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch? Um, cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well, uh, thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, Oh, well, he bombed it. He did very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, uh, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you we're sending out a couple, uh, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really great. But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for, because if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state, um, or community college in Charlotte because I mean, I had, I had, uh, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And, uh, didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted, uh, universities in my home state.Gina Pulice (01:04:18):According to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Uh, uh, yeah, right. Um, I got the Blues and Peter pan, Peter pan,Dave Dastmalchian (01:04:33):The, uh, we did the, um, uh, uh, Glengarry Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. Uh, we worked together, uh, doing that, uh, outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something. So, yeah. But while we were those first four years, and then in the year, since we've done three things together probably or four, yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:05:25):teacher was amazing. Teacher was a good,Dave Dastmalchian (01:05:27):thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when, um, we got John, uh, it's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got. And John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up. It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level, but just which is the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene I've probably gone back to, uh, more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend onstage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff. And, um, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John.John Hoogenakker (01:07:07):I feel the same way about you, man. You, I got to say, Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, uh, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And, um, I think it's less than 7% of people, uh, who, who have been where you were, uh, ever come back. Um, and so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry, um, is just absolutely astounding. And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and, you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship, um, while being, uh, you know, a partner and a father is, um, I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for adviceDave Dastmalchian (01:08:17):Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so I'll always thank God for the theater school because of John Hoogenakker, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time, um, you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation. She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey, um, and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I I'm so grateful, uh, as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed, she was a needed angel at the time for me, um, in a dark place. Um, and bridges, I mean, I know he wasn't, um, you know, uh, faculty, he was staff, but that guy, um, recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction. And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of himJohn Hoogenakker (01:10:03):And his door was Always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I bel

Intro: Lost Boys, Chapelle's Show, Dianne Wiest, Brian Cox, Hillary and Bill. Let Me Run This By You: I need to KNOW what your major malfunction is. Compulsive liars, mushrooms.Interview: We talk to Scott Torrence about raves, feelng famous as a club kid, and surviving Tulsa.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And then we watched lost boys, which by the way, the lost boys is the lost boys, like from the eighties and that movie. It's hilarious. So in a real way, like there's some comedy gold in that movie that both Myles and I were like, like, look, it's a cheeseball eighties movie, but it holds up.1 (53s):There's not, there's no real. I'm trying to think of like, look the thing that Dave, there's no people of color in the movie that sucks. Yeah. But in terms of overtly racial, racist, or sexist, sexist jokes, not, and obviously it's creepy and it's a vampire flake, but it holds up, I was shocked. I thought this is going to be a piece of shit. So what is the thought, how did you arrive at watching this movie? So, okay. So that is such a great, that's a great question in that Myles and I never agree on what to watch ever, ever, ever, ever his idea of like, he wants to watch good things, right?1 (1m 35s):Like he wants to watch real stuff. I have to be in a very specific mood to watch real shit. I can't be triggered about anything in any way. I can't, it's really lame. Like I can't, so you're a delicate flower. Yeah. And I think it's also, I just am unwilling to use the brain power and the emotional wherewithal to focus on something that's like really good. So, okay. So which is why I thought lost boys. Right. Cause who cares? But it was so good, but Myles likes to watch, like he wanted me to watch the harder they fall, you know, the new sort of Western on I, I watched a little bit and it was, it was, I thought it was really, really well-written, but it was also Uber violent and Uber, like it was just too much.1 (2m 23s):So it didn't. Okay. Chappelle show. Interesting choice. We started watching the first season of Chappelle show. Wow. Wow. No, it is not a shocker that Mr. Chappelle is, is having the problems that he is having. Now, if you go back and watch the show, it's really interesting. And I, I don't know where I fall. I do think that if you kill affordable housing, I hate your guts because those were all of my former clients. And also, and just for humanity's sake. So I hate that. And we talked about that on the podcast. Right. And then, but anyway, so we stumbled upon and I was like, let's watch it pops up on my Netflix feed because why not?1 (3m 6s):And, and I was like, all right, let's watch it. And I'm expecting it to be so bad. First of all, Diane weest is a goddamn national treasure. She,2 (3m 16s):She really is. She really is. She's such a good,1 (3m 20s):Okay. So if I had to pick my, I always play this game, my new parents, my parents are going to be Brian Cox and Diane weest. Yes. I mean, it's, it's going to be very weird, but it, it, that if I quirky, I told you how I met Brian Cox and asked him to be my new dad. Excuse me. It's a lot before,2 (3m 43s):After all of the time I've spent talking to you about succession and reading Brian Cox's autobiography.1 (3m 49s):I just remembered it. I remembered it when I was talking, thinking about Diane, Diane weest lasted. It was before it was during adaptation that Nick cage made. And I like, I somehow it was, he, he was in a anyway. It doesn't matter. The point is I got to talking to him at a party and I was like, I want you to be my new dad. And at the time my dad was still alive. Right. So, oh, wow. Like, you know what his response was. I get that a lot. And he was serious. He said, people project all this shit onto me.1 (4m 30s):I believe2 (4m 31s):That makes a lot of sense. Oh, wow. Very interesting.1 (4m 35s):Yeah. This is like, before I knew anything about anything and right, right,2 (4m 39s):Right, right.1 (4m 40s):Oh my God. So we watched the lost boys, all this to say, and we just did it because it was something that we both could agree on that wasn't going to cause me weirdness because I'm weird and it wasn't going to four miles or what ends up happening because I, you know, I was watching about a Canadian cannibal the other night and he's like, I can't watch this before bed. Like, I can't under fair enough. Fair enough. But you know who, the stars of this movie are the true stars. Corey Feldman inquiry, aim pain. Yeah. And the other frog brother, they were Hulu like Cory Ames, Hames, his him, Hey right.1 (5m 25s):With age Corey Haim's delivery costumes. Oh my God. The clothing, like from the eighties and his delivery and his, his acting chops, his comedic acting chops are like fucking unparalleled. They're like on par with some deep shit. Anyway. So I that's my recommendation wash the lost boys. I wish there were people of color in it, of course, but2 (5m 53s):Maybe they'll do a remake, but that seems to be the way that they, they, you know, fix that well, not to brag, but at my dinner, my mellantine dinner last night, two other very special people were at our same restaurant. Whew. Hillary and bill Clinton. Yes. And it was so moving to see them. It was especially her, him. I'm like, I've changed my tune a little bit about him, but, and she is just as energetic and bubbly and, and kind of course, I didn't want to go up up to them.2 (6m 36s):I've never done that, but I've never gone up to a celebrity and said, can I whatever, say hello or take your picture with her. But on the way out, they were seated in such a way that you could sort of see in when, when you left. And I just didn't, you know, I just blew kisses at her and she just, you know, waved her hands and gave me a big smile. It was really, really nice. That is so awesome. We it's okay. We didn't deserve her honestly. Right. We would have, we would've ruined it in one way or another. And then juxtapose that with reading this morning. I don't know how I got on this topic. I start reading about what's happening with Kanye right now.2 (7m 19s):It's really sad.1 (7m 20s):It's2 (7m 20s):Really sad. And why are we still in this place where we, don't not enough of us to know that this is not something to joke about. This is not something to salivate over. Like this person really needs help. And the rich, the Oop, the ultra rich in some ways are in a similar position to the ultra poor when it comes to basic things like, you know, health care, we've talked about it a lot with respect to drugs and all the yes, yes. People that are in celebrities lives that ultimately I think lead to their death, but also the, this issue of mental health going, and I'm sorry, but Brittany Spears seems to be going off the rails too.2 (8m 1s):I, I'm not saying that it was right. That she was in that conservatorship, but I think she was on meds that she's not on now. And I'm sorry. I wish it weren't the case that really sick mentally ill people needed to take meds, but they do. They just do there's no, it's just the truth. There's no point in like, quibbling about it.1 (8m 29s):All this to say. I have never been in the presence of someone who literally is a compulsive liar. Like I've been around people that, cause this is LA right. Everyone is a blowhard. This person is a pathological compulsive liar. It is so, so, and the reason I bring it up is one to gossip, but to like, right, but to, to talk about this is why, like I was thinking about you, how you posted, how you saw that my name is Anna, right? Like, and how we're writing about Agnes.1 (9m 10s):Right? So Agnes, I don't think is a compulsive liar at all, but she's a con person. So there's there's and this person I was around was fascinating. And I actually, once I knew the diagnosis of a person of this person, it, it, it, it settled me. So I find, I don't know if you have this experience where, when I'm around someone and I don't know what their major malfunction is, but there is a malfunction, I am petrified. Right. I'm like, stick me in a room. And someone's like, okay, this person has narcissistic personality disorder with, you know, with, with, with psychotic tendency, whatever it is.1 (9m 57s):I'm like, okay, I know what I'm working with. Right. I know what I'm working with. The once her diagnosis, like this is a diagnosis that she's received, right. A personality. But anyway, it put, when I, so I could be in the room or outside with this person and I could say, oh, and this person is so narcissistic. They never listened to our PA, like they, they won't listen to our podcasts. She didn't even really remember who I was in a way in that way. Anyway. So they had a context or whatever. So watching a compulsive liar at work, fascinating, Gina, fascinating.1 (10m 37s):Because you can see as I'm, so I'm a kind of a gregarious gal, right? Duh. But like, I am, I like people, but I could see when I was telling a story, I was telling the story about my mushroom use. Right? And so how I tried to drive a car on mushroom, it's a Berry funny and sad and funny story. And it's a true story. Fucking happened to me with Ana Maria, who came from Vashon island and Jeffrey Brown and I, and Ana took mushrooms. You've never told me this story. It's the greatest story ever told. I mean, like you told me that you saw a family and you thought they were calling themselves the large family. That was when I was on acid. So different in solving or something different, different fake.1 (11m 18s):So, okay. Went to south America, went to Paraguay for a Migos, gave vaccinations. My partner was on a Maria Ana, Maria. She was from Vashon island off the coast of Seattle on bash on island is a hippie island on the, on the grounds of the police station. Grew hallucinogenic mushrooms. All the kids knew about it. Ana Maria decides I want to come visit you. We, we kind of made friends. I'm going to visit you in Chicago. She fucking brings tons of hallucinogens on the plane at 16 she's 16, I'm 16. But to just to disguise them, she puts them in a huge bag of popery.1 (12m 1s):So we don't know what's the mushroom and what's the popery okay. Oh, like just mixed it in. Oh yeah. So here in burping up. Well, so we didn't know Jeffrey Brown, of course. And he's fine talking about this. Cause we've talked about it. Jeffrey Brown is like, I'll do them with you. They were no measurements. There were no, we grabbed handfuls of what we thought were, oh, I was 16. Okay. Fine. It all was fun. We had a good time. It was really gross in my throat. Burned from the popery don't know how many mushroom caps I took probably a lot. Probably like, cause it doesn't take a lot, depending on the phone, it's all fun and games until they were, we, I had to drive home and I was driving my mom's Honda.1 (12m 46s):So I get in the car and we're on lake shore drive and I stopped the car and I say on lake shore drive and Ana and Jeffrey, we had dropped Jeffrey off and Jeffrey's like honest, like what are you doing? And I'm like, I have to stop the car because, and she's like, why? And I was like, I gotta be honest. I don't know how this car works. Like I couldn't figure out the mechanics of why it was. I said there's piston pistons involved. And she was like talking. Okay. So it crazy. So I'm stuck on lake shore drive. Right. And you were 16. I mean, there's so many things vulnerable about this attrition and I protein anxiety.1 (13m 29s):Right. So that's a whole, so, okay. Finally she's like, and she doesn't drive. Right? She doesn't drive. She's 16. She's never licensed yet. She doesn't know how. I barely know how so it was, she's like you have to pull back on. You have to, I think I probably managed to pull off a little bit and she's like, will you, do you know where you live? She's in a new city. She doesn't, there's no cell phones. And I'm like, I live, I know where I live. I live in Evanston. And so that was good. But then I get back in the car and I'm like, oh my God, Ana, I have bad news. And she's like, oh my God, what? And I'm like, there are people chasing us because the headlights in the bed, I was like, there are a lot of cars chasing us. What do you mean women?1 (14m 10s):Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. And so I then started to panic, of course. And I, and I go home and I'm like, my parents are having a fucking dinner party Sunday night. Here's this poor girl who brought drugs on an airplane with me who doesn't know my parents from Adam. I lived with her for two months. They don't know her. So I walk in to the dinner party and I say, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I've just taken. Apparently I've just eaten a lot of hallucinogenic mushrooms and I'm, I'm freaking out. And my mom goes, oh my fucking God.1 (14m 52s):Like she like was pissed off. And my dad just put his head in his hands and was like, I'll talk you down. And so he was lovely. Yeah. It was great. My dad, thank God. He was a psychologist, even though he's fucked up. He had some training in this. So I sat with my dad and talked for, and then they were like, we got it. He's like, you should eat something. So like, they should have ordered it, but they're like, no, let's go to the bagel. And I'm like, okay. So we go. So we all go, my parents and this were this woman who is unknown to us other than now my parents know she's a drug dealer. Right. So we go to the bagel now.1 (15m 33s):I don't know what was happening, Gina, but we walk into the bagel and there's a clown and full clown suit behind. And I start hyperventilating and I want to leave. And my mom was like, no, you have to stay like, she's punishing me. Right. So I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. So we say it was like a birthday party or something, but it was like Sunday night. Okay. So we sit down, the waitress comes over to the dinner party. So they all leave. Like it was a bad situation. It was like three other couples crisis teenage crisis. Okay. They leave whatever. All right. So then we go to the bagel and we see the clown or I'm like, oh my God, no, no, no.1 (16m 16s):So we set in another area and the waitress comes and literally this is what happened. My mom's like, Hey, the way they were, my mom is like a huge, super dot. And she goes, what's the soup. And the lady goes, oh, cream of mushroom. And then my mom and everybody wraps into laughter. I feel like I'm on, you know, again, tripping. So it was a bad scene. It was a bad scene. And, and I had panic attacks from that from weeks on. So I know that I need to be very careful, but okay. I tell the story for this reason. One, it's a funny story. Yeah. It was my introduction to psychedelics, but too, as I'm telling this story, I see this other person at the party livid and thinking, how can I out story this story?1 (17m 10s):Oh shoot. Oh, no, I didn't mean for that. And I thought, oh, of course not. Of course you're not living your life to injure and are looking and looking at me and thinking, you can almost see the wheels turning about like, how am I going to one up the story at this dinner party outside at 8:00 PM. Like, it it's crazy, but there's competition going. And I'm like, and then, so then this person launches into this totally unbelievable, like crazy story about hallucinogens. It was so sad. And I, I wanted to say so many things to this person.1 (17m 56s):I said nothing, cause I'm not.2 (17m 59s):Yeah. Right. That's, that's their, that's their journey. But did the person whose name we will have bleeped by the time this airs, did that person like say something to you in advance? Or you're just saying you experienced this compulsive liar.1 (18m 14s):No, no. They've known, you know, they've known this person forever and it it's the things that this person says is wild. Like we'll say I bought a house and they didn't buy a house. I am going to Greece tomorrow.2 (18m 30s):No, no. And, and the person who was having the party is just okay with it because1 (18m 36s):My husband chimes in. Cause he's, he's, he's like, why, why the fuck are you friends with this person? And they say, it's like family. It's like this weird. And the answer is, I don't know. And I don't think they know.2 (18m 50s):Yeah, right. Anyway, he was like family. I well, and you're right. What you said about when, when you know the context, I like, I have a few friends who, yeah, they, they have diagnosable personality disorders, but knowing this about them and loving them anyway, kind of gets me off the hook of like having to feel bad about it or having to feel worried about it. I mean, yeah. Those are not the people that you're necessarily going to go to with your, every intimacy. Right. But, but to just, just to like, know what brand of crazy you're dealing with can kind of make it because at the end of the day, you know, the only way, not, not that it was anybody's job to change the compulsive layer, but the only way that those people ever do eventually kind of see to a life full of more integrity is not by, I mean, sometimes I guess it's from people abandoning them, but mostly it's from people saying, you know, I love you.2 (19m 47s):And I know you're lying to me, you know, which is a hard thing for me, lying is like, is that if I'm, I don't think I've ever said before that I have a trigger, but that's, my trigger is lying. When somebody starts lying to me, I, I well up with such rage and I realize it's my own narcissism. Right? How dare you lie to me? I, you know, like as if it's something they're doing to me, instead of something that they're doing defensively for themselves in the same way that everything I do is defensively for myself. Like it's just a different brand of defense.1 (20m 25s):Yeah. It was wild2 (20m 26s):That, that recasts my own experiences with that person. Wow. Okay.1 (20m 34s):Yeah. And criminal, we've talked about this criminal things. So it's just, it's what it is for me was real reckoning with my own desire. Right. To be something that I am not like, I understand that in my bones. Okay. I guess, I guess like I practice before, like say, what would I say to this person? Cause I thought like if I was to try to quote, help this person, which I'm not going to try to do, but I'm just saying like, okay, well the urge is there to, to compat have compassion.1 (21m 16s):This is what I would say, oh, how I get it? This deep down in my bones need to be something I'm not something greater than I'm not than me. Something prettier, something thinner, something more attractive, something smarter, funnier, all the things I know that feeling. So what I grew up with that feeling it's been reinforced and I know it in my bones and I have tried every way I can think of to combat that. And nothing has worked except for the thing that I'm running the most away from, which is the truth.2 (22m 5s):Right.1 (22m 5s):It's such a fucking catch 22. It's like, so when I tell the truth, I'm so scared sometimes to tell it whether it's, I feel inadequate, I made a mistake. I, whatever it is, I'm feeling less than I feel you're mad at me. I feel all the things. If I don't say that, if I say anything, but the truth, the suffering I experience only gets multiplied.2 (22m 36s):And the person who is a compulsive liar in a way you could think about it like being a verbal tick, like if somebody had Tourette's, you know, and, and was an, every other thing they uttered was like an involuntary sound. That's almost how you could think about the compulsive liar. My, the problem that I have is I get into this thing of like, well, if I don't confront your lie, that I'm co-signing it. Which actually is not how it works. Right. I, I'm not in charge of what you say. You, you, you have lies spewing out of your mouth. I mean, that's, that's your problem.1 (23m 8s):Right. It's so interesting. And I think it, I think it, it, it, it, it just is. So it's just a fascinating part of human of human. What is it like pathology when stuff gets, and that's the way it manifests, because we just want to be so much sort of more safe and, and special. We want to be safe and special.2 (23m 39s):I think it would be like for a person who is so sick with the line, what do you, it would be like for them. I mean, what, I wonder if it's something as simple as like walking through. Okay. So what do you think is going to happen? If you tell the truth? People aren't going to like me. Okay. Well, has it ever occurred to you that people don't like you for not telling the truth? Right. Well, people aren't gonna like you. And then what, you know, because of course the thing is like, the problem is not that other people aren't gonna want you to promise that you don't like yourself. This is, this is my news. Like not pro, not profound, but profound to me, realization about life.2 (24m 20s):Is this just like really the whole thing is whether or not you love yourself. Yeah. Right. And when you're talking about relating to other people, loving other people, supporting other relationships, like pretty much RuPaul said it, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? It's just what it is. It's like a fact, it's not even really an opinion. And, and, and I, I'm on a journey of figuring out how to love myself. And it's really scary. It's like, I have no idea how this is going to turn out. I don't know, from this. Right. But so far my furtive little steps are turning out great.2 (25m 3s):As an example, you know, I was talking to somebody about, I was talking to somebody that I'm in a, you know, that I have a closeness with about prob not even problems, but just, you know, areas of challenge and in the, in the relationship. And for the first time I didn't take this person who was telling me what they are struggling with with me. And I didn't take it personally. I took it like, oh, you're telling me what your struggle is. Okay. I get that. I didn't, I didn't have to take it on, like, as my own person, didn't have to make it about my own ego.2 (25m 48s):You know, getting feeling rejected. I could really see. And it, the only thing I can attribute it to is I have somewhat more of a better sense of myself, such that I'm not constantly looking to another person to tell me if I'm good or not. Today on the podcast, we are talking to Scott Torrance. Scott Torres is an actor. You may know him from a film that started many theater school graduates like Sean Gunn and Judy Greer and Lee curves, some called the specials.2 (26m 33s):He was also in six feet under and a film called Ray and Buffy. The vampire Slayer. Scott is currently living in his hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is running his very own hair salon and he is funny and charming and sweet and lovable. So please enjoy our conversation with Scott Torrance, Any race. Oh, okay. Good recording progress. Got it. All right. Scott Torrens. Congratulations. You survived theater school.3 (27m 7s):Thank you. By the grace of God,2 (27m 10s):Grace of God. No. Wait, did you guys graduate the same year? Right? Because you, Scott was in the class right below mine. And then1 (27m 21s):What year did you graduate? 98. Yeah. We were in the same, but listen, but listen, I was so far gone that I don't, I just couldn't even, cause I took a year off that I don't remember. Literally I remember nothing. So, so yeah, they were the same class.3 (27m 39s):Okay, awesome. Cause I was trying to rack my brain. I was like, I remember you. I remember you being a year ahead of me, both of you. And then, you know what, to be honest, if I was just gonna blame it on a whole lot of ecstasy that I did for four years, I blown out a lot of brain cells as I there's a lot of things to remember. And a lot of things that I did,2 (28m 1s):That's good into it because honestly that I think, I mean, I remember that that is what you were going through or getting into or whatever you want to call it. You were the first person I knew who was like really into rave culture, which I thought was so cool and dangerous and adventurous and exciting. Was that something you were involved in before you came to theater school?3 (28m 26s):A little bit. I am from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I was this little gay boy raised by my mom and my aunt. And I knew from the time I knew, I knew once I knew what a big city was, I belonged in. You know, I knew that I never belonged here. And so I just started acting when I, my, my aunt Coco, my crazy aunt, Coco was an actress around town and community theater. And she took me to see Peter pan when I was six. And I fell in love with it because they flew.3 (29m 7s):And three years later at the same theater company held auditions. And I was like, I want to play Michael because I want to fly. And I practice and practice audition for it and got called back. And I got that part and the bug bit. And from that point on laser focused, and one of the things that I have, that's a blessing and a curse, I think is I have the ability to get laser focused on something and not stop until I get it. But I usually get laser focused on the wrong things. Be it the rave culture and the club, the club kids. I mean, it was fun, but I, should've probably been focused a little bit more on class.1 (29m 48s):Well, I have a question. I think that for me, I don't think there's, I mean, look, I'm not gonna de eh, say your experience. Wasn't valid because it sounds like it, but at least you had fun, right. While the rest of us were like slick. I mean, like tell us what that was like, how did you get into that culture? Because I remember being like, oh my God, these kids are so cool and they're having a fucking blast. Was it fun? First of all,3 (30m 16s):It was so much fun. It was too much fun, you know, and coming into the theater school, I knew I wasn't going to be, I knew I was going to be surrounded by people that were better than me. You know, we were all kind of like, I felt like the best of where we came from, you know? So I was prepared to not be the golden child. But what was interesting was I was very curious and I was, you know, dropped into Chicago from Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so I had no fear when I was 18. I mean, I feared the professors, but not Chicago nightlife. And so I just, I went to pro bar one night by myself. I took a class, I waited in line, freezing my ass off for like an hour.3 (31m 1s):And then I saw these magical people, like just walk through with these huge platform shoes and this crazy makeup. And I was like, oh my God, I want to beat them. And finally got in and like bought my way to the back of the club where all of these fantastic people were. And I had the nerve to just ask one of them. I'm like, where'd she get those shoes? And I'm like, oh, I have a maid. I was like, where, okay. I like a cobbler or something like that. So I got my dad's combat boots that he gave me. Cause he really wanted me to be a tough guy. And I said, I'll keep these boots. And I took them in and I got six inches of like platform attached, dressed up in these, like these like striped overalls.3 (31m 49s):And I had this like matching hat and I wore those shoes and I walked up to the club the next time. And they were like, right, this way you don't have to pay. Like, and from that point on, I felt like I felt famous.2 (32m 4s):Never occurred to me until just now that raves or theater. I don't know why that current, till, till you just said it, you made your entrance and with your correct costume on, and then you got the part. Yeah.1 (32m 18s):Great. And you were also famous. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the other thing that I've learned from talking to people like you and another guest ed we had on kind of talked about this, that like that and watching documentaries that the club kid thing was a tr a mix of like fashion show meets theater meets like calendula, like D like, so what debauchery, but it's, it's a theater. It was like theater of it meets the fashion shows. It was fantastic.3 (32m 51s):I agree. And I also on the, on the touching on the famous part, feeling famous, not having to pay $20 at the time, which was pretty hardcore. I thought to get into anywhere. I was like hobnobbing with like a Dennis Rodman in the VIP lounge was totally, he was totally hot now. He's not anymore. Billy Corgan. I mean, I was hanging with these like stars. So I felt famous. I remember talking to Billy Gorgon. I was as tall as he was, because it was six inches on this five, seven foot body we were face to face and he like, where'd you get those shoes? They're pretty cool. And I'm like, oh my God, I love you so much.3 (33m 33s):Like, it was just, it was magical. But I was also like, I was so wrapped up that it got me into some like, kinda like bad situations. And do you mean like dangerous situations? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So did you guys remember the seven minute rule? Like if you were late seven minutes, the door would close and then if the door closed three times you were completely kicked out of school. It didn't matter if it was like last semester, senior year, three times you're out. And from what I remember, our credits wouldn't transfer.3 (34m 14s):So they put the fear of God in us to like, make it on time, which I agree with. Like, I think, you know, time is money. I've never really had a problem with being prompt, but there was one night that, okay. So I had bill Burnett for voice and speech. I think it was our second year. And I just could not with him. I would just say1 (34m 40s):I got in a fight with him in class where I stormed out, because he's told me I had, I was a chicken necking and that I did this too much. And then I looked like a chicken and I couldn't take it because, and I just stormed out that motherfucker. I never liked him. Well,3 (34m 55s):He just put me to sleep and granted, I probably wasn't on any sleep, you know, going into that class. But I risk, I risked it, that biscuit and I just skipped twice. I was like, I can't, I can't, but I won't miss the third time. Now this is kind of a dark sword, but I went to so Tuesdays and Wednesdays in Chicago where like the nights that like weren't ethic and back then, and I remember just going to this gay bar and boys town just to have some drinks. And I remember all of a sudden waking up in the emergency room with restraints on my arms and legs and a catheter.3 (35m 37s):And I was like, I had no idea how he got there. I was like, what happened? And finally the doctors came in and said, you know, you were fighting us. We were trying to have, and I, I don't remember. I don't, I'm total blackout. And you guys, I've never laid a singer on anyone in my life, but they said it was a possible GHB overdose or roofie overdose. So someone bought me a drink the one night that I just went out to just have like a couple of drinks, not like eat a bunch of eggs to see, and like, you know, dance still done anyway that morning. If I hadn't gotten out of that and gotten to build Burnett's class, I would have been kicked out.3 (36m 22s):So after they removed the catheter, sorry, this is Jolene. It was, it was very, very painful. And they took the restraints off. I was like, I have to get to Bill's class or I'm going to get kicked out. And I gained my Ivy out of my arm. I like dress as fast as I could. I ran. Cause I feel like it was really close to the theater school that ER, I ran to his class and I got in there in time. I was mortified, but I was like, I can't miss this class. Like I can't or I'll be kicked out. So yeah. Does2 (36m 59s):That mean you don't know what happens to you that night?3 (37m 2s):I don't. I, I don't think because the guy that I went with supposedly like just like dropped me off. But anyway, I don't believe that anything happened to me. I think that I was trying to fight maybe because I was like in a blackout that I felt like people were like trying to undo my clothing, but it was probably like the nurses and the doctors and stuff, you know?2 (37m 30s):Right. Oh my3 (37m 31s):Dad, it was nuts. And I think about it now and I'm like, oh my God, that really was fucked up. But you know what? I made it to Bill's class. And I been,2 (37m 40s):How old were you? Eight? Was that our second year? So 193 (37m 44s):Funnier, 1920.2 (37m 47s):Oh my God. Well, I'm really sorry that happened to you. I'm really glad that nothing, nothing terrible happened to you. But I wanted to jump just back to the thing that you said in the beginning about feeling famous, because that is what my, I wouldn't have occurred to me until you said it, but that is my impression of you like that. You not in a jerky way, but that you were, it seems, you seem very self-possessed to me. Well, and for sure you had a life outside of school, which many of us didn't, so that was sort of like intriguing, but overall it does seem like you have a lot of grit as a person.2 (38m 28s):Would you say that's true?3 (38m 30s):I definitely did. Back then. I had kind of had no fee, well, I had all the fear in the theater, but, but yeah, there was, I don't know. I, you know, I think it's that like invincibility thing when you're younger, you know, the older you get, the more, or for me, the older I get, the more I'm I cherish, you know, I, I think about what I have. Like, I don't just, I don't ride brides on rollercoasters anymore. Like the last time, I mean, I went to Hawaii a few years ago with my family and my mom, like I kept being told, like take the helicopter tour is magical. It's it is a religious religious experience. I was like, so looking forward to, well, my mom booked for whatever reason, book the helicopter with the doors off you guys, it was like an hour long panic attack.3 (39m 17s):Like my nails dug it into my mom was like, I was like, make it stop. This is horrible. And then when it was over, I was like, when did I become a web? Like when did I? But I think it comes with age, right.2 (39m 28s):It totally does. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day. Oh, it was about skiing. I was talking about, about skiing. I'm saying like, I just can't ring this bell of knowing people die from skiing, like from kind of minor, sort of you make one false move and you're just dead. And just seems like not a, not a way to, it's not worth it in terms of a way to go. If you're going to take a danger, take a risk, it should be like really, really worth it. But you, so is it right to say that the thing you sort of regret or feel badly about with the partying and school, is that you, that you might've almost gotten kicked out or did you, was it, was there more to it than that?3 (40m 16s):I don't think I regret it. I mean, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but like I had to be somewhat talented to like roll into like Shakespeare class, no pun intended roll into Shakespeare class and do some Shakespearians on it after coming straight from after hours, like on no sleep, like, I don't know how I did it, but somehow I did it and I also came out, you know, alive that God, I had a girl in my class that something really horrible happened to. And I don't know if we, I don't know if we can bleak names.3 (40m 57s):Do you guys remember like names, like, remember who I'm talking to? So that could have happened to me. You know what I mean? Like I put myself not to say that she did anything wrong at all, but you know, that could've happened to me, you know? And2 (41m 13s):For the grace of God3 (41m 14s):There, before the grace of God out,1 (41m 16s):Did you make, were there a bunch of kids at, in our class, in our school that, that you went with? I remember some, but like, did you, or did you have two totally separate groups of friends?3 (41m 28s):So starting out, I remember listening to Noel's podcasts with guys and I heard her say I was sitting around at a friend's place and I'm like, let's go to a club. But I think she was talking about me because Noel was hot and I is beautiful. She's gorgeous. And I was like, well, that'll help me get into this club. And we were friends, you know? And so she was like happy, like hanging out in the VIP room. Whereas I was ex to see did something to my body. It made me dance all night long without stopping. And so I started dropping all this baby weight. And so there was another part of it, which was body image.3 (42m 9s):You know, I was as chunky monkey my whole life. And then I just started dropping weight, like crazy because I was dancing literally all night long.1 (42m 19s):Yeah. You literally were doing cardio for 12 hours at a time, right?3 (42m 24s):Yeah. Well, yes, yes, totally. I could ring my jeans out, my big old raver jeans that I got in a lot of trouble out of theater school for wearing. Cause they said that, you know, we can't see your full movement. I could ring those with. So, I mean, it was, it was like hot yoga for 12 hours, but like, or Zumba.1 (42m 45s):So what, w w why and when, and how did the party at,3 (42m 50s):So not till later on? Not till, honestly, not till after, so, okay. So I never felt like the golden child at the theater school. I don't know if any of us said, although listening to these podcasts, like some of the people that I thought were golden, they didn't, they didn't, you know, we all have this similar experience where it's like, oh, you were scared too. Oh, wow. I had no like, Hey, you guys are scared. I thought everybody loved them. Yale. The, the only real feedback like that I had that was positive from any teachers were John Jenkins and Jane Jane alderman.3 (43m 36s):And I know that's not, I haven't heard a lot of that on this podcast, but, and I almost had kind of like imposter syndrome in her class because I was like, well, she hasn't seen my work all four years. So like I, and I felt like that was kind of competitive, like pretty competitive, but grade.1 (43m 56s):It was very weird, very3 (43m 58s):Weird. Especially the girls. Like I didn't get, you know, like I didn't get a lot of, I don't, I didn't feel the same heat from the guys as I did from some of the girls. But anyway, so I had a really amazing, it's weird. Like I had the most amazing showcase experience ever. I think I was blown away. I couldn't believe it.1 (44m 25s):This is a great story because I'm obsessed with showcase stories and they've all been horrific. It pretty. So can you tell us your experience? I'm so excited.3 (44m 35s):I would love to. Okay. So I was like freaking out about a monologue. Didn't know what to do, but Jane, you know, Jane was just, she was just kind of, you know, she didn't favor me. I didn't believe she was just kind. And she was like, just ask Zack helm to write your monologue. So I reached out to Zach who I'd never, I mean, we weren't really friends. I mean, I knew who he was, but I got his number. I called him and he said, okay, I want you to make me a mix tape and send it to me. And I'm like, okay. He's like, don't think about it. Just make me a mix tape, send it to me. And so I did, and he wrote me this monologue and it wasn't, I think this is important for actors that are about to graduate.3 (45m 24s):It wasn't a character. It wasn't, I wasn't playing anybody else. It was me ranting on stage. I walked out and I just was going off about what really pisses me off in the world. And, and so I lucked out with that Chicago showcase. I was one of those, I walked off stage and I was like, I have no idea what that was. You know, that was an out-of-body experience. I don't know if that went well, then we go to LA and it was like, all the stars aligned you guys. Like, I cannot even tell you, I got out there. I like started into this laughter started happening. And I was like, okay, I've got these people in my pocket.3 (46m 6s):So I just go on and on and rant and rave. And I got a fucking standing ovation shut. I'm not kidding you. I could not believe it. I was like, is this real? This can't be real. Like it did that. Did I imagine that? And then I remember afterwards,1 (46m 21s):Oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard.3 (46m 25s):It was one of the best moments of my entire life. Rick Murphy walks up to me and he's like, well, someone did well this evening. And I was like, oh my God. And then Jane called me into her hotel room and she sat me down and she goes, okay, look, listen, I want you to know that you have more interest than Judy Leonard or Mike Moody combined. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? She's like, no. So I need you to go home and get some, or go to your hotel room, go night night, because you are booked like this entire time. So I don't know what everybody else did. But I took meeting after meeting, after meeting, after meeting, then one of the1 (47m 7s):Interrupt, can I interrupt you? Because I just have a question. What was that I have where you like, my whole life is about to ch like I am now a star. Cause I would be like, Hey mom, I'm never coming home. Like I'm now fucking a star.3 (47m 22s):I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I honestly felt like I was dreaming the whole time. I was like, oh, just my dreams are coming true. And I of all people me, like, because I just felt really not, I don't know. I just, I was never, I felt like I was never really liked by most teachers, you know? And I don't think they knew what to do with me casting what? I didn't, I couldn't picture me in a lot of things. Like I couldn't see a clear picture of where I belonged in the business.1 (47m 50s):It's so interesting. I think you hit LA and LA hit you at a time where you said the stars aligned, but they were looking for something and that something was you like, that is the clear thing of like perfect match and perfect time for that. Anyway. It's just so it's such, I'm so intrigued. Keep going, keep going.3 (48m 14s):No, I agree with you. So then I, then every, so I think people were there for two days. Maybe I didn't see anybody. Cause I was just, it was one meeting after the other. And then I was told I needed to stay a day later because there was this audition for this movie called rave. And I was like, okay. So everybody else flew back to Chicago. And I had to stay in the hotel room by myself and I got the sides to the script and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to audition for a movie in Hollywood tomorrow. And by the way, all the meetings that I took, they were like, go back to Chicago, get your sad card and then move out here. That was like, basically what everyone said, go back to Chicago, get your sad card, move back here.3 (48m 59s):So I go to this audition by myself. First of all, it's hard as fuck to find a cab in LA coming from Chicago. I was like, how the hell am I going to get there? But I figured it out. I went, I auditioned for it. I didn't really know how I did flew back to Chicago. And then I found out that I booked, I booked it and I was like, wow,1 (49m 22s):Are you fucking kidding?3 (49m 26s):Not totally true. And I wasn't sag. And so they did something called a Taft-Hartley, which I don't know. I think that I should probably look that up, but it's like waves of magic wand and now you're. Yeah. So I graduated and then two weeks later flew to Los Angeles. I moved in with so Zack helm, Kate McKinnon, Kat Phillips, Ellen, Mel's Jeff you'll Terman. We're all living in this huge house in Korea town. And they're like, we would love to have you as a roommate. And I'm like, that's great because I have no idea where the hell I'm going or what I'm doing.3 (50m 9s):I flew in $5 to my name. Oh, in saffron. Don't let me forget. Saffron also lived at that house, went to sleep, woke up and I think it was Kate or Zach that drove me to set the first day. Cause mean, I didn't know directions. I didn't have a car. And I started shooting this movie and it was just totally unbelievable.1 (50m 31s):I have to just say this whole thing is unbelievable, but like, can I ask you, like when you're sitting in these meetings, because you were like, what, how old were3 (50m 39s):You? I was 21.1 (50m 42s):So you're sitting in these meetings with people. Were you able to like, do you think here's what I'm making up? Okay. And I could be wrong. Like all your stuff with like the club scene where you have to pretend and dress up and like you, and you're already famous, kind of, do you think that helped prepare you for these meetings in terms of feeling like you deserved to be there?3 (51m 4s):I don't know if, no, but you know what it did teach me like hanging out with all those club kids. When I got the, the sides to that movie, I was like, I know this guy. I argued with this guy. I mean, I, it just felt like I could totally do this. And there weren't a lot of parts. I did bomb and Gilliad with John Jenkins, my second year as an intro where I got to wear my stacks in that, in that thing. And I got to be this like over the top, flaming, like hooker boy, not to say that, you know, but I, I had something to base that off of, you know what I mean?3 (51m 45s):So that was really fun. Rave kind of just like fell. Right? I mean, it was, again, it was luck. It was like winning the lottery stars aligned. I party with this character before, so I know how to play him. And, but, but they a lot. So the agency that I liked the most, they still wouldn't sign me. They were like, this doesn't happen. So, but we still like use, so we're going to hit pocket you and we're going to send you out on auditions. And I was like, okay. And they're like, and get ready to not work. And I was like, okay. And I didn't feel entitled. I mean, I felt like I was just lucky, like right place, right.3 (52m 26s):Time stars aligned. And they started sending me out on auditions. And then I remember going to an audition that they said, you know what go, you just need to go meet this casting director because she just want to award for buggy nights. And I was like, cool. Okay. And I went in and Sean Gunn was in the room and his brother was in the room. And I, it was like a two liner for this movie called the specials and Judy was in it and, and Sean was in it. And so I walk in and I do the two lines. They're like, did you Goodman? And I said, yes, I shared it. And they're like, thanks. And then I get a phone call for me. You booked it, come in and sign the papers.3 (53m 8s):Like you're signed, let's do this. And I was like, yes. So that paid off because connections. Right. Like knowing people, right? Like the theater school was a connection for me in that room. Little did I know then? But the gum brothers, how like amazing. Right. But, but1 (53m 25s):Yeah, you, you hit the ground clearly running like clearly. So you just, could, we never talked to anybody that literally has had this experience where you, your showcase went so well, that you basically just stayed, you, you, you, you moved to LA and you had an agent and everything, but I want to say, how was it shooting the rave movie? Just not knowing how to make movies? Like how did you do that?3 (53m 56s):Well, I learned very quickly that you know, the camera's right in your face. So I got, you know, I first day they were like tone it way down, dude. Like, camera's right here, you know, don't act for the back of the house. And I also was getting cues from my fellow actors. We were, I think the first scene, we were all like laying in bed after like this raid goes terribly wrong. And one of our friends Odis, and we're talking about like, is she going to be okay? And I'm like, she'll be fine. And they'll know like, listen, and the other two actors were like whispering and, and we were whispering in bed. I was like, oh right. Yeah, the camera is like right here.3 (54m 38s):Okay. I got, I got clocked by a couple of directors for just being too big. I did an episode about the, the vampire Slayer. And I, I was this half, this kid that blows himself up with a bomb and he's half zombie, half burned victim and comes back to wreak havoc on the high school. And I, all this makeup, it took like four hours to get into this makeup. And I would practice in my trailer and I'm like, and I did these nervous ticks and stuff for this job. I mean, I got called in like five times for this part, which was just like one episode. But I had, it was this nerdy guy with these ticks. So I was like, you can't really see what I'm doing in this makeup again.3 (55m 18s):I was just told you, bring it down, like stop being so extra. Like, we'll see you. And I'm like, got it. Okay. Gotcha. But yeah. Well, Scott,2 (55m 29s):At the risk of sounding like a terrible television movie, and then what happen because you got all this, what happens?3 (55m 38s):So the thing is I got really close to a lot of pilots. I would go in tests for network and it would always need it to me. And one other person, another person, and every single time it didn't work out. I would cry. Like I would, I would be devastated. And then, then I would go to work with like the swollen red face. Like I get red and splotchy anyway, I would get red and slushy walking into auditions that was before I knew anything about beta blockers, but Hey guys, if you're out there auditioning and you turn red as a beet, if you feel any sort of beta blockers can be a big help, but I was tired of crying. I was tired of having my heart broken.3 (56m 18s):I mean, and I feel like Larry Bates said on this podcast, confidence is everything. And I can, I cannot agree more when I would book a job, then I would be confident and that would lead to three more jobs. And then I wouldn't, and I wouldn't work for a year or more, you know, and then I would get so close. So close every single time. Nope. Nope. And my I'm S I'm a sensitive guy. Like I think I was like born with like an extra like dose of emotions and I was just tired of crying and having my heart broken. And I had had my, my laser focused on being a movie star from the time I was nine years, six years old, honestly.3 (57m 2s):And there was no plan B. It's so funny when my mom dropped me off at DePaul, she was like, you know, you could go to beat beauty school and like, learn how to do that. So you can cut hair in the dorms to make money. I'm like, there's no plan B. Like I'm going to be a movie star. That's all there is to it. Well, that's what I do now. I own my own hair salon. So she, you know, but it all worked out the way it was supposed to, but basically I stopped because I was like, is there anything else in this world that will make me happy because I am miserable right now. I'm tired of crying every day. You know, you're selling yourself, they're telling you, you know, there's only so much rejection that I could take at that time.3 (57m 45s):So1 (57m 46s):Where you, where you still did you feel like you had a community out here in LA or no? Like, did you, or, and also where did the raving continue in LA? Yeah.3 (57m 56s):Prior to that? Yeah. So I was also suffering from like, I don't know if this is stage fright or a mixture of stage fright and drugs, but anytime I would get, you know, like I would go out for something that I got really excited for. I remember they were casting this gate character on Dawson's Creek. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I couldn't remember the lines you guys. And it was, it wasn't, you know, pages and pages, but I just, I was psyching myself out. I did better at auditions on things that I didn't know really a whole lot about. But yeah, I, so I, I think it was a mixture of partying and also just kind of like being set up and I couldn't remember the lines and there's nothing more humiliating than, you know, that's like the bait, you know, you guys know when they're like, listen, remember those lanes,1 (58m 53s):I have the same thing. And so I was diagnosed. It's like, my therapist literally thinks that what happens is that it is, it's obviously anxiety, but it's also, there is some kind of shame, fear of shame that happens that becomes so large shame of not remembering shame of not doing well enough. This is for me. I don't know if this resonates with you, but like, and she was like, it is. And then the brain literally shuts down and, and goes into, I will protect you at all costs, which means all of my resources have to go into like, basically keeping you in your body and who gives a shit about copy written by some dude in a room like you now are in survival mode.1 (59m 43s):So that's, it's panic, it's, it's panic and it's fear of humiliation and it it's real. And it, and it has really debilitated me as an actor and I'm still working through it.3 (59m 56s):Yeah. Can I just tell you both, I'm so obsessed with you, both, like, are you, did you both become therapists at some point? Because this, I, I, I, I so wanted to, I'm a huge, huge fan of therapy, huge and endorsed it, love it will go for the rest of my life. And there's a part of me that wishes, gosh, you know, if there weren't so much school and if I wasn't 46, like I would love because it's fascinating to me. And I think you're absolutely right, Jen. I think that, you know, it was like, I remember, okay, there's really, really bad, bad show on MTV TV.3 (1h 0m 37s):It was called undressed. And it was this really bad soap opera. And I, and it was really bad acting. But then when I got on, on set, I was like, oh, it's really bad acting because they're giving everybody line readings. Like, they're telling you to say it just like this and I forgot my lines. I kept forgetting my lines. They were getting so frustrated with me. And I was like, I didn't know that I could never ask questions. Like, I was always scared to ask for what I wanted. Like I just was like, I don't know, just, oh, sorry. I'm bouncing all over the place. But Christine Goodman said something so amazing. And in her podcast about how the whole MFA's, they looked at it as like, I'm paying you to learn that blew my mind.3 (1h 1m 26s):Like if I went in with that, just, just with a notion of that, like, oh my God, I, I taught, I mean, she just, I love her so much, but I wish that I had thought that a little bit more. And I mean, that's not the case when you're working on set, but you know, in Hollywood they're paying you to do a job, but like what Lee paid those, those professors to teach us. And I feel like some of the things that I don't know, th their behavior, I think sometimes we wouldn't fly today. I'll tell you that1 (1h 1m 57s):Right now. Well, no, it wouldn't.2 (1h 2m 0s):Well, you probably know boss and I are kind of big into this idea that like, when success doesn't happen to people or it doesn't happen in the timeline that they want or whatever, it's often for the best, because you know, like I've said to her, if she hadn't made all of these terrible choices, basically turning down opportunities that were coming her way left and right. She might have found herself fit successful and not able to handle and kind of blow it up. And like, you know, I mean, I'm using her your words positive. They use I'm like, I probably would have ended up dead.2 (1h 2m 40s):Oh, I would have been dead. Yeah. So Scott, do you think that that's kind of, there were some, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought3 (1h 2m 50s):I would've pulled a Lindsey Lohan. I would've, I would've ended up dumpster. Yeah, no. I mean, so I, I truly believe that, like, I, I I'm so happy that I did it, you know, I it's, I don't, I think you'll only regret the things you don't try, the things you don't do, but then there's also this part of me, I'm not gonna lie that, you know, the love never goes away that I, I don't wanna say it's an empty hole that, you know, I do hear now, it's very creative. I own my own salon. It's just me and my clients. And, you know, we all, I think everybody puts on their work face or, you know, whatever, but it's nice to be able to be adaptable and, and entertain while you're doing, you know, whatever.3 (1h 3m 38s):But you guys have been such an inspiration. This podcast has been such an inspiration for me because you guys got my creative juices flowing. That, that part that I have, not that hasn't been full in 24 years, you know, like I'm, I am like, I'm like, I'm going to do a podcast. I, you guys2 (1h 3m 58s):Do it, do it.1 (1h 4m 1s):We're doing a documentary. Or we're planning to do a documentary on the theater school times. And you will be in that documentary. So2 (1h 4m 11s):Road trip, road, trip to Tulsa, you're in Tulsa, right?3 (1h 4m 15s):Buckle on the Bible belt.2 (1h 4m 16s):Okay. Now, yeah. That's what I was going to ask you about. Like, what's it like to live in Oklahoma when you're not the most traditional person?3 (1h 4m 24s):Right. So, I mean, if you told me, you know, you're going to move back to Tulsa one day and you're going to find your husband and you're going to be content. I would have been like, you're smoking crack. Like there's no way in hell. You couldn't pay me enough money. What, what, what, what person, what, what, what any sort of minority, why would you choose to live in this horrible red state? Right. But, you know, I really lucked out there's good people and bad people, wherever you go. And the pandemic, I actually had a silver lining with the pandemic. I was working at a competitive salon, kind of like the theater school.3 (1h 5m 5s):I don't know why I'm drawn to those kinds of things, but pandemic happened. And I have, my mom has a heart patient. She had triple bypass at 42. So she's immune compromised. My husband is immune compromised. And then there's me that just tends to catch every cold that's out there. And I was trying to rack my brain during lockdown. Like, how do I do my job? Six feet away from someone like, I have to be like, I have to touch you. Like I have to cut your bangs and basically in your mouth, what I'm kind of like, how am I going to do this? And I, I, I took this, this pandemic very seriously because I, I have so many loved ones that it wouldn't be good if they got it.3 (1h 5m 48s):So I just decided to take a chance and open my own salon where it's, COVID, it's basically, COVID free and people have to be like fully vaccinated and show me their card. And I have air purifiers. We wear masks. It's just a single room with me and my client one at a time. And what's so wild is I thought I was going to shoot myself in the foot. When I said, you have to be vaccinated or else I can't take you, but there are all these unicorns, all over Tulsa, Oklahoma, they come to me and honestly, business is booming. It's never been better. And it's wonderful because it's just me and it's, it's very private.3 (1h 6m 29s):We don't have to worry about, we can talk politics as loud as we want, because there's nobody sitting next to us. Like, you know, looking at us up and down or telling us we're wrong. Or so there are good people here and they're all my clients.2 (1h 6m 45s):And by establishing those boundaries, you created the unicorn club where everybody can, is drawn to you because you've established from the outset, what your thing is. And that makes people understand what is, and isn't tolerated by you. And then that makes, that draws all the right people to you.3 (1h 7m 3s):And I will say, I will tell you, I don't think I'll ever work for anyone ever again. Like, I don't think I'll ever have a boss ever again. I mean, I I'll work with someone at least in the hair world, but oh my God. Being your own boss, you guys is the best. I highly recommend it.1 (1h 7m 21s):So, Scott, how did you end up? So what was the transition like leaving LA? Like, did you, did you go out in a fi like me in a fiery blaze of driving drunk into a swimming pool? Or like, did you,3 (1h 7m 34s):I, you know, again, like, I'm very lucky that I, I moved to New York. So when I quit, I was so I decided, I was like, okay, I'm done with, with acting for a while. I'm going to take some time off. And then I was like, well, why am I living in Hollywood? I've always wanted to live in New York. So I moved to New York partied and worked retail for four years. It was kind of tired of being like a broke college student. And I'm like, well, let's go back to LA where at least it's a little bit easier. And the weather's nice. And I went back to LA this whole time, by the way, never sucked partying. Right. And I got to the point where I was like, you know, I don't think that I can be here. It's too triggering for me to go out and dance.3 (1h 8m 15s):And it graduated from ecstasy to speed. And I was a functioning addict, but I was like the only way I'm going to be able to not get fired from work. And I, I really just wanted like two months to sleep, to catch up. So I went to rehab, which was one of the best things I ever did. And I learned that I am a drug addict, but I'm not an alcoholic because drinking was never my thing. It's still really kind of, not my thing through lockdown. I will say. I mean, I was guilty of maybe pouring a martini at like 10:00 AM, because I felt like we were all living in Vegas and nobody had any idea what day or time it was.3 (1h 8m 58s):But, but yeah, no, so I can socially drink and that's fine. But I just was like, I'm going to die if I stay here. And my mom got divorced from my stepdad and I wanted to come back to Tulsa to check on her. It was, I was like three months. That's it? And then it was weird. Like growing up here, there was nothing happening. And coming back here, I think I changed, but also to also change a little bit for the better. So like the best nightclubs, like the best shopping. No, not here, but that's not the most important to me. And like the traffic's not bad here. The cost of living is real cute here. And I met my husband here on grinder, by the way, Gina,2 (1h 9m 44s):I love that. That's beautiful. I mean, you guys, what would it take? I'm just thinking about your experience there. Like they built you all the way up the first day you got to LA it couldn't go any higher than that. You got to stay an extra day. You gotta to your meeting after meeting. Well, you know, P people like me and boss are like going to the beach and whatever is she wasting her time in LA because we were getting any minis. So everybody loved, you got a standing ovation, you got Rick Murphy to say you did great. And then it was a process after, you know, some sex successes of getting jobs. Then it was a process of like tearing you down. When if there could have been a way for you to tolerate or survive the rejection, you might've stayed and had like a sane career.2 (1h 10m 33s):I think that's the problem is like, there's no sane career. It seems like, and you like either go balls to the wall and, and burn, you know, crash and burn, right? Like, so what would it take to have an environment that was even just 10% more psychologically minded? I mean, I'm interested to pause to what you have to say about that.1 (1h 10m 58s):Well, I think it would take each so interesting. It's such a business for me anyway, that thrives on youth. Right? And, and, and when we're young, our brains aren't fully formed. So you've got weird ass people running around doing weird ass shit and their brains aren't formed. So I think it would have to, for me with literally have to take us embracing the knowledge and wherewithal of people as they get older and not so much capitalizing on youth because you don't know shit and we can't know anything. So when you're youth centric industry, it's, it's a mess.1 (1h 11m 39s):So what, what, what I would say is like D what would it, what it's going to take is people to say, oh, wait, people of all ages of all races of all can have careers. And I think then it becomes less of a, like, I have to capitalize on what is hot right now, right now, because later is not going to be so hot. It would take a more holistic view of like the human experience. And I there's so much money involved. I'm not sure. And I think coming back at 46 and doing this, and I'm not really trying to be an actor, but as a writer, I'm seeing that, like, you kind of have to go away from like 25 to 40 and come back to LA, if you're going to do it,2 (1h 12m 22s):Dude, that I just had this image, like it's, it's LA has kind of run like, like porn. Like, it's all about, like, what's going to get you off, like in five seconds, instead of anything beyond what's going to happen in five seconds. And there's a, there's like a short term memory problem. There's a 'cause I think you described by the way about being the, you know, the thing of the moment, whatever Sean said, the same thing Shawn said, I think that I was able to do what I was able to do, because I just had a particular look at a particular time when they were just looking for my look, you know?2 (1h 13m 2s):And that's important for, to, to say again to people out there, like, if you don't succeed, you can't necessarily say it's because of your talent. It really could be like, it's just not the, it's just not your moment. Your Hollywood is not having the you moment right now. It might have had it 10 years ago. It might have it in 10 years. It's just not right now.3 (1h 13m 26s):Amen to that. I, I fully agree with you on that. And, and what I love now is that, you know, everyone's writing, it's like, I remember my agency said, you know, you're just not like anybody else. So we're just going t

Intro: Boz's brain hurts, Ozark, the ordinariness of crime, drug running in Tijuana, Molly, Jerry Harris and Season 2 of Cheer, unpleasant surprisesLet Me Run This By You: I didn't do anything wrong.Interview: We talk to Carolyn Hoerdemann about Steppenwolf's From The Page to The Stage, John C. Reilly, tenacity, hyper-empaths, Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, Tarrell Alvin McCraney, feminist theatre, Pump Boys and Dinettes, Faith Wilding, Rob Chambers' Bagdad Cafe, Ominous Clam, Zak Orth, Good Person of Szechwan, European Repertory's production of Agamemnon, Danny Mastrogiorgio, Michael Moore's Roger & Me, Chicago Shakespeare Theater, the anti-memoir memoir, and Ann Dowd.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I have a place to go to do with, it's not my one bedroom with my dog and my husband, but it's still a lot of work, like an and so, and then on top of that, I mean, I just feel like literally, you know what, I texted you yesterday and you said you knew the feeling like my brain is hurting me, but not in a bad way.1 (50s):I don't have a headache. Like I don't, I just was, you know, telling our couple surface, like, I feel like I can literally hear my brain turning and growing and groaning and like working. I've never had that feeling before in my life, which is weird. But like that, that feeling of, oh, I'm doing or knowing that what it was, what it was like, I'm doing a lot of work, you know, like my brain is doing so ridiculous, but that's how I feel, but it's all like, it, it doesn't feel, you know, what it is. I'm used to doing a lot of physical work.1 (1m 32s):Like I'm used to my body doing a lot of work. Like whether it's, you know, like the jobs I've had, like even the jobs that I, when I was a therapist account, you know, a counselor at social services, like I spent a lot of my time, like moving cases of diet Coke and cause we were in like a halfway house. So like I did a lot of manual labor and lot and case management and case management management is a lot of manual labor, like taking clients to appointments. And like, so when using my brain now in this different way, like literally I wished I would have been a camera on me when I was redoing my resume and cover letter specifically for the ad industry, because it is like making something out of nothing and also using words to like basically, you know, trick people, not trick people, but you know, get them to think what you want them to think.1 (2m 27s):And you think, oh, well she's, you know, television writing. The thing about that is like, you can make up anything like television writing really. You can really say, and then pigs flew out of his asshole and then people are like, oh, that's a weird show. But when you're trying to sell yourself to a particular industry with a particular set of skills, trying to make your skills meld into the skills they want, I was like, I couldn't see. After a while I was like, I don't even know what this, like using words like in this space, you leave space is a big word now.2 (2m 59s):So Metta that you are selling yourself to an advertising1 (3m 8s):Up girl.2 (3m 10s):So the PR how I understand it is there is somebody affiliated with this that is an advocate of yours, a champion of yours. And she wants, she wants you in that industry.1 (3m 23s):Okay. Yes, you are understanding. And there's like multiple things here. So she's, she's a screenwriter that I met and she continued on with the master's program. But her big job is her. Her day job is she's like a creative director at an ad agency in the, in the copy department. Right? So she's a big wig and she edits, she's like, she's the big editor there right at this. And I guess they hop around from agency to agency. Look, I don't know how it works, but so she started this new job and she's like, I want you to come work in the copyright. She also gets a very large bonus for every person that comes on that she refers, which I good look, do what you need to do.1 (4m 6s):But I think it's like five grand per person that she brings. I that's what I'm led to believe from the website. So anyway, there's like a, and so she literally Gina. So I sent her my updated resume and cover letter letter looked great. And then she applied me for 30 jobs. So then I have two.2 (4m 27s):Wow.1 (4m 29s):So which sounds great, which is awesome. Copywriting, all different kinds of copywriting. But for each of those jobs, I have to fill out demographic form. So last night I literally was up after myself tapes one self-tape last night clicking. I am not a veteran. Yes, I am Latina. No, I'm not disabled2 (4m 53s):Online. I was going to say, why don't they have one form, but it's1 (4m 58s):Yeah. It's a different job number. Right? So like every time, oh my God. So then, and sign, you have to sign every, so I literally was like, by the time I went to that, my brain, I was like, what? I'm not a veteran. I'm not a veteran like that. I was like mumbling to myself. And so, so, but I have to say like, you know, it's a good skill to build for. Like, I think that thing about, we only use 5% of our brain. They they've like debunked that right. They've said like that. You can't, but I'm telling you my brain, just like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. My brain is like literally growing three side.1 (5m 41s):I don't know if it's three sizes, but it's, I can feel my, my, my like pathways changing in terms of the skills that I'm using. So that's great. You know,2 (5m 51s):I don't know. I mean, it can't be bad. Nothing. The good news is all of this work you're doing can't lead to anything bad to something. Yeah. Not illegal, You know, honestly, it's really saying something. I finally started watching Ozark. Oh God. And I, what strikes me about it is like, oh, this is not, it's not that this could happen to anybody, but you just think about like how ordinary crime really can be, you know, and how criminals aren't all in a layer or living in a way it's just, it's just moms and dads and, and people who need it, who need money in and who needs to run around and get it right quick.2 (6m 40s):Yeah. And I don't know, I will, I'm only one, not even the full first season in, so there may be a lot of stuff that I don't know, but like, it seems to me that this Jason Bateman guy was just a regular guy who got kind of wrapped up in this criminal enterprise1 (6m 58s):Didn't happen. You, I can see like most of my clients that I saw like were knowingly doing, you know, they were like, oh, I'm going to be a drug dealer and a gang member now. And no, but there were occasionally people that got involved in like scams, you know, financial fraud that you could see how it would start off and, and, and case in point miles. And I have a friend, an older guy, friend, we won't name because this is so illegal was like, Hey, what are you guys doing over Christmas break? And we're like, we're going, doing whatever. And he's like, Hey, do you want to, I shit, you not do you, if you'd let me know if you want to make some money, driving a camper from here to Tijuana.1 (7m 41s):And I, why like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, we'll give you like each $5,000 of it. And I said, well, what do you mean? Why do you need the, the, the, the camper and Tijuana? And he was like, oh, there's drugs in it. There's marijuana. And I was like, no. And miles was like, absolutely not. I'm like, have you met miles? Are you boy?2 (8m 3s):Oh, not, not marijuana, I guess,1 (8m 5s):Because it's marijuana. I don't, I don't2 (8m 7s):Think it's legal. Why do they have to do1 (8m 9s):That? I don't know. I think it was like a mass quantity or something like that. I don't know. Like, you're not allowed to like traffic, like large amounts of marijuana from different countries to over the border. Like, but so, especially in Mexico, like what? So I don't know. And we were like, Myles was like, absolutely not. I mean, miles is a lawyer. Like, what are you talking about?2 (8m 34s):Well, it's funny how just one casual aside a reference can really change your whole perspective on somebody you've known for a long time. Like I thought I've been in that situation before, you know, you think, you know, somebody and then they just casually say like, well, you know, we're swingers or1 (8m 55s):The other, the other, the other day I was meeting with somebody. Totally. And this actually didn't make me think less of him, but it was just like, he's like a totally looks like a total straight laced guy. If you're going to look at him, you know, white dude, thirties, balding, whatever. And he's like, yeah, I met him like the first time I, he was talking and he was like, oh yeah, the first time we met, we did Molly. And I was like, wait, what? At first I thought, Tina that's crystal meth. And I thought, but that wasn't, that it's Molly is whatever, HBM,2 (9m 25s):Whatever,1 (9m 26s):MTMA Molly. And I, like, I was so weird and we're like old people, what is happening? It's sitting in a cafe and you're talking about Molly. I don't know. I just it's, it totally rocked my world, which is, I think why I like to write too is because I do like to write those things in where you're like, wait, what? You know? Like, like,2 (9m 53s):Yeah, I have to say just, just the thought of learning, something like that, about somebody that I know is scary to me. And it, it just made me remember that I, after you mentioned season two of cheer, I started watching it. And I forgotten about the whole thing about that guy, Jerry Harris. And it was so heartbreaking to me when that happened. Not that it's worse or better if the person is well-known, it's just, you know, he, he seemed like a person who has such a hard life and it seemed like he was finally getting some, you know, something that he really deserved.2 (10m 38s):And then, and of course, I understand that when I hurt that hurt people, hurt people. And that he was probably doing this because this has been done to him. I don't know, man, I don't, these are surprises. I don't care for, I wanted it to stand for the rug and like for these kids to go on and being abused, that's not it at all. It's just, it's so disheartening. Well, it's really1 (11m 5s):It's. So there is, so yeah, it goes beyond grief. It's like goes beyond disappointment. It's like grief. And it's also, I think for me anyway, and I don't know about for you recreates the feeling of which is what I felt all the time with my parents, which is, oh, I know these people. I can trust these people. Oh God, I'm not safe around these2 (11m 30s):People. Okay. Thank you. That's exactly what it is.1 (11m 33s):I have that experience in Los Angeles, 40 times a day. Right. We're like, I want to like someone and then they'll say some fucking shit. And you're like, okay, well this is, you're a psychopath. Okay. Right. Like I'm talking to this. There's like, I meet them all the time at co-working because you know, co-working attracts like everybody, you just have to have money to have an office here. It's not like they, you know, vet people and some I'll be having a conversation with someone who seems relatively normal. And then they'll be like, oh yeah. You know, I was like, I really admire this Japanese porn star that like really knew what she wanted in life.1 (12m 13s):And it's not that there's anything wrong with being a Japanese porn star. It's that this guy like casually dropping, you know, and then talking about the kind of porn she does in a coworking setting. I I'm like, dude, I gotta go. I gotta make a fucking resume over here. Like I don't need to, but it's it's that in with him. It's just, I was just more like, oh, you're that you're going to bring this up to a stranger. Then I'm getting better about like, what's safe and not safe. But I do think that when you invest in something like Jerry or the cheer or a parent, and then they fucking do some shit, you're like, oh great. I'm not safe with you. That's,2 (12m 50s):It's what it is. It makes the feeling of own. And then, because I tend towards misanthropy, I'm like, okay, nobody's say if you can't trust anybody, everybody's out to get you, which is not true either. But it becomes, that is my defensive posture that I immediately tack back to, you know, I could go away thinking like, oh, there's goodness in the world. And some people and humans are inherently good. And then boom, something happens and I fail. And instead of, and I don't do the opposite when somebody does something good. I don't say yes, it's P you know what I mean? I don't, I don't have the same positive connotation that when somebody does something bad, it makes me say everybody's terrible.1 (13m 34s):It's really interesting because I'm having the experience of having to, what is it? So having to have a little more caution with people, I tend to really, really, really love everybody at first. Like really like I'm like, that person is awesome, but then they start talking crazy shit. And in the past I would have dismissed it and been like, no, I'm just sensitive. Right. Or I'm just so I'm trying now to be like, no, I wasn't there. When I was in therapy yesterday, I was like, no, no. Like in that moment I felt like this is not good for me.1 (14m 16s):And if I am not going to stand up for myself and take care of myself, nobody else is. So I have to mix a little more of the caution in with my, what can be Pollyanna kind of stuff. I have to be mindful of what my instincts are telling me about somebody, because I then will end up, you know, talking about very explicit Japanese porn techniques for half an hour and then walk away feeling violated and fucked up.2 (14m 49s):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I knew this. I ha I know somebody who's exceedingly reserved. She doesn't, I like her I'm we're friends, but she doesn't tell you anything about herself. Like, or it takes a long time. And it's just this little snip, like, as an example, I don't know how old she is. And I bring up my age all the time and I, and I think she's younger than I am, but somebody recently said, oh, actually I don't think she's. I think she's more like your age, but that's, but she's never chimed in whenever I've said anything about how old I am.2 (15m 31s):She, she, she won't tell she's, she's a mystery. And on the one hand, I think, oh, she's just, she's just protecting herself for the reason that you just said. I mean, you know, she, she knows me kind of, but it's not like she really, really knows me. Some people really wait until some people don't just give out their confidence to anybody for some people you really, and I, you know, I guess like good for her. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know. I, I tend to be more like you, not that I love everybody, but that I assume, I assume everybody has good intentions.2 (16m 13s):And, and then it's very surprising and sad and shocking to me when they don't like the thing that happened to me last week, this fricking guy, I was at the, I was picking my son up from tennis and where I've been, where I've been. Yes. And the place has bad vibes. I, I w I don't like the place. The parking is annoying, but yeah, the parking is annoying anyway. So you're, you're not supposed to wait by the curb. The parents aren't supposed to wait by the curb and align for their kids to come out, but everybody does. Right. It's just how it goes. Cause there's nowhere to go. Right. And it's, and it's been really icy here. So even sometimes I will park whatever, but this time I'm thinking, well, it's really icy.2 (16m 57s):And I just don't want him to, it's not lit up really in the parking lot. I just don't want him to fall. So I'm waiting in line and the guy in the car behind me hunks, and I, I assume he's not honking at me. Why would he behind me? Me? I'm just, my car is just sitting there honks again. Hong's a third time. And I put my arm out, like, go, go around. I just thought maybe he didn't think he could go around me. I still honking. So I just kind of opened the door a little bit. I look behind me and I'm like, what's the deal? And he's just yelling something. So I think, okay, whatever, I'll just loop around, pull over, go through the parking lot, turn to come back. And the guy I had the right of way.2 (17m 39s):And he just zoomed in, in front of me made so that I had to slam on the same guy. So I had to slam on my brakes, but then he gets out of the car and walks up, walks over to me. Of course, I lock my doors and he's like just screaming obscenities at me. Now later on, I had the thought this of course had nothing to do with me. Of course, this is how, you know, I didn't do anything wrong. This is about a person who really wanted to kick the dog. And he found that he found somebody to, to do that with absolutely. But I tend to go through my life in kind of this bubble of like, everybody's got everybody's well-intended and maybe even he was well-intended it just, it just didn't come across in the, in this experience.2 (18m 30s):And1 (18m 32s):Did he walk away?2 (18m 34s):I said, get the fuck away from me. Get the fuck away from me. By the way, my dog was in the back of my dog, who barks at literally every leaf like Wallace.1 (18m 54s):What kind of wing man are you? You fucker anyway. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think those experiences are very particularly about driving and cars and obviously there's a whole road rage. Like there's literally a television show about road rage, right? Like the truth really? Oh my God. Yeah. It's a horrible it's so triggering. Don't watch it, but okay. I mean, yeah, it's ridiculous. But that being said it's very, to me, what happens to me in that situation? I'm sorry, that happened to you is yeah. Like what you mentioned on social media, which is feeling completely powerless and like, it's scary.1 (19m 38s):It's out of control. It's traumatizing. It's I, it's not good. It's not good. And it is also to me that what the feeling is being ambushed, right? Like you're being ambushed by, by a fucking crazy ass and you didn't do anything wrong. See, the thing is, I get into this thing of like, I didn't do anything wrong. And again, if I can get to the core of it, which is as a kid, I literally didn't do anything wrong. And all this shit rained down upon me, this trauma and this and this in this bullying and this whatever. And it triggers that in me. Like, wait a minute.1 (20m 19s):I, all I'm trying to do is do good, protect my son, pick up my thing, do this merge into the fucking freeway. It doesn't matter. And then I get like, this is not fair. Like I get really hurt is what it is. I get hurt. I'm shocked and hurt. And then the person, there is no, there is no resolution, right? Like the guy doesn't then call you later and say, I'm so sorry I acted a Dick. Or you can't even call the police and be like, this guy acted like a Dick. We're like, they're like, well, did he threaten you? No. Did he? Then they're like, fuck yourself.2 (21m 5s):Right. To say that it's, it is linked to, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family. I'm for myself, looking a little bit more deeply into that. And because I, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but for me, I think that I have said that I think that I have convinced myself that I'm never doing anything wrong, you know? And, and not just say that I was doing something necessarily wrong in the situation with the sky, although actually, you know, if I could have crafted it better, I would have paid attention to the flag from really from the first time they honk, which is like, there's something wrong with this person.2 (21m 51s):Do you know what I mean? Like, and yes,1 (21m 55s):Like get away, let me remove2 (21m 57s):My instinct. My instinct is to want to fight back. In fact, I remember this time that the some concert or something like that with Aaron, it was early in our relationship. So I was in my early twenties and this guy kept whatever. He kept stepping too close to me something. And I, I pushed him and pushed him. He, and of course, what did he do? He looked at Aaron like, are you gonna like, don't do that to me. I don't want to, you know, and it's, but it's not fair. He's encroaching on my space. He's like fair. Who, who told you the thing that we're going to be fair? Like it's, you know, so I guess that's the thing is I sometimes go out in the world thinking like, I'm an, a student and therefore, you know, nothing.2 (22m 42s):I don't, I shouldn't be getting any demerits. And if I get into merit, it's not my fault. I do that a lot.1 (22m 50s):I have the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I do it where it's like, I, yeah, I have my version of that is like, I'm a nice person. Like I do good. I'm nice. How dare you do bad or do wrong or treat me bad. Yeah. I mean, he it's, all this stuff is so layered. And2 (23m 10s):As far back, like it takes a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so far back. If it took this many years for us to form this way, imagine how long it's going to take us to On the podcast we are talking to Carolyn. Carolyn has a BFA from a theater school and imitate from the school of the art Institute of3 (23m 45s):Chicago. Carolyn is a performer and a professor and a lovely and pathic, amazing human. So please enjoy our conversation with Carolyn Bournemouth.4 (24m 8s):We're not here to talk about cancer. I've got no theaters because the Rick Murphy shirt Murphy's now this is actually made by Kevin Foster, who was my, that student. But I guess so I directed a workshop that he was in. He's a wonderful man. He ended up moving to Alaska, teaching people how to climb ice mountains. And now has a wife and a baby and never left Alaska. So we had that weird connection. Cause I lived in Alaska for the summer in between my first and second year of school, which I guess is it's like another theater school story in a way. I forgot about that one.2 (24m 47s):We're here. So Carolyn Hornimann, congratulations. You survived theater school. Yes you do.4 (24m 56s):You survived it. I know. That's why I bought this very expensive mix. So I would get lots of voiceover work that I never get.2 (25m 2s):Hey, maybe this is going to be your open Amy4 (25m 4s):Visit shit. This is it. This is my ticket. This is my ticket. I love podcasts.2 (25m 10s):So you survived as a student and you teach4 (25m 13s):DePaul. I teach there. I mainly teach the non-majors, which I love, but I have directed a couple of a workshop, intro type things. But many years ago, I keep putting in proposals. They don't ask me to do again, supposedly next year, maybe I will be, which would be awesome because I have this idea to do a version of Bernhardt Hamlet with all genders and just like totally gender fluid. So2 (25m 42s):You have to submit a proposal4 (25m 44s):For a show. That's a whole nother story. I'm probably another podcast, but I have submitted proposals. But oddly enough, a couple of times I did direct. I was just asked to, and that, I guess we're going backwards to go forwards. Are we always bad and make it go forward? Right. Which is that amazing? I think it's David Ball. The book that they made us read called backwards and forwards. Do you guys think I read In HDL, you had to read this book called backwards and forwards. Anyway, I used it in my master's thesis too. Cause it's brilliant. But anyway, backwards and forwards, I was in graduate school.4 (26m 24s):Rick Murphy was like kind of very interested in what I was doing. I was doing work on performing new feminisms and he was like, what the fuck is that? What's going on at the white cards? You can curse. Oh, no podcast. And, and that's a whole nother story because actually Rick Murphy was not my teacher. I had David AVD, Collie, and I went into to Rick Murphy's office. Like I guess it was probably my senior year to ask him advice about wanting to go to London, to study his full cereals. Right. As if I hadn't already been studying for serious. Right. Cause I wanted to go to Europe and be a fancy pants, real actor. And he was like, why are you going to do that? Why don't you just stay here and find a company that does European work.4 (27m 7s):So then I was in the European repertory company for 12 years. Oh,1 (27m 10s):Oh, that's a, that's a nice long run. Is that, is that company still around?4 (27m 14s):No, that's another story.1 (27m 16s):You have so many stories4 (27m 18s):We need to have, like, I have too many stories, too many stories. I don't even1 (27m 21s):Know where to start. Well, here's where I'll start. Did you just let's get the facts? So you went to BFA at the theater school, but you got to be MFA somewhere.4 (27m 32s):Oddly enough. No, I got, what is an M a E a masters of art and art education from the art Institute of Chicago, which is funny. Cause the Goodman started at the art Institute. So I guess I'm like super Chicago already.1 (27m 45s):You did that. Okay. I wanted to get the facts down. That is why. So then I would like to start when you were a child, were you always this awesome where you just like, fuck it. I'm going to4 (27m 59s):Just be crunchy. I have cool glasses, like YouTube,1 (28m 2s):There's serial killer glasses that we have just FYI.4 (28m 7s):I am from a small town down south. And I guess in a way I knew somehow that I wanted to be an actor from like watching old Betty Davis movies with my mom,1 (28m 17s):Her like Betty Davis.4 (28m 20s):And then I, my dad died when I was a sophomore in high school unexpectedly. And I was with my English teacher who taught us Shakespeare. He was fabulous. Mr. Beaver, very eccentric man who was probably gay and was not able to be out in our little small town. And Mr. Beaver took us to another small farm town school bus to all in, to see the show that was coming in from Chicago. And it was from the page to the stage Shakespeare by step and1 (28m 55s):Walk, a little company called4 (28m 59s):John C. Riley was one of the two count of two actors. There was a man and a woman. I wish I knew who she was. I went on deep dive search last night to find out and I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Was that my computer making a noise? Oh,1 (29m 15s):I didn't hear, I didn't hear it either. So something, well, here's the thing I'm sort of in touch with John C. Riley for various weird reasons. So I might ask him,4 (29m 27s):Please ask him, oh, he's the only one that will know. It's not anywhere on the internet. And I don't talk to him, although he's very close with Rick Murphy, oddly enough. They're like buds. But so, so anyway, we're in this, you know, school editorial, I'm watching this Shakespeare show with Jonsi rally and this woman that was also amazing. I hate that. I only know the guy, right. But they had a trunk and they would pull out costumes and props from the trunk. And they went through several scenes of Shakespeare. It was, you know, like devised, wonderful, amazing theater traveling the country, like the old frickin work progress association do used to do with the federal theater, which we should still have. Thank you very much.4 (30m 7s):And I, you know, had the PR I remember holding the program to like, with like, who are these people? What did they do? Where did they go to school? Oh, theater school, DePaul university. That's one question. Okay. How old were you? Like 15 amazing. Maybe 16. Cause I looked and it said it was 86. My dad died in 85. I was 15. I was 16. So I then also had, I was the president of the thespians of Lincoln community high school in Lincoln, Illinois. And I had, we, one of the things that we got was I forgot what it was. Oh, I wish I remembered it was a fabulous name. Like it wasn't forensics theater or something.4 (30m 49s):The, the title of the magazine you would get, it was like a high school theater magazine. And you got a free subscription of that for a year. Cause you, you know, you were the president of the Philippines and it also of course had a wonderful little spread about the theater school. So then I decided it was either going to be NYU theater school. My mom wanted me to go to ISU and kept saying, John Malcovich went there. John Malcovich went there because that was only 45 minutes away from me. So she really wanted me to go there, you know, cause my dad had just fucking died and she and I had moved from the country into the town and she wanted me to stay close, but she wasn't going to say that. But I know that now that that's what she wanted. Plus it was a lot cheaper and also Webster, which is in St. Louis. I think so somehow I got into, I think ISU in Webster, but I don't remember auditioning.4 (31m 33s):I think I just like had to write an essay and say I wanted to go Tish. I didn't even, I don't think pursue it because I couldn't afford to go to New York to audition. I only auditioned at the theater school. I addition to in my junior year I got in and my junior year, I knew where I was going for my senior year of high school. That's awesome. My brother drove me there and his, he had this old convertible. I remember driving down lake shore drive with my brother. It's my brother who now has cancer. And he took me to this audition. I don't know where he went or what he did with his big, long, old, like 67 do you know, muscle car that he had. But I went in and I did the audition and I did the voice and I did the weird movement and I did my two monologues and I don't remember exactly who was there.4 (32m 16s):I think it was maybe Phyllis Gemma stuff. Maybe it was his Carol Delk person who was a movement teacher who then I never really had. But anyway, yeah, I got, I got in, I remember getting the letter. I remember standing on my stairs in my house in Lincoln, Illinois, because then, you know, you've got to actually better in the mail. There's no emails or anything. And I was standing on the stairs is my, mom's stood at the foot of the stairs and opening it and being like, and then she's like, well, you know, we'll figure it out2 (32m 47s):Time out for one second. Do you think that kids think about us opening letters? The way that we think about people opening scrolls1 (32m 55s):Or telegrams? Yeah.4 (32m 59s):I have to explain to my students with snail mail is because at the end of every quarter I send everyone a little card, just a little thank you card. I've been doing it for like 15, 16 years now. So I can't stop now that I started this tradition and I'll ask them for their snail mail and they'll be like, what's that? And then I'll have to explain to them what it is and then they'll give it to me and they'll leave off like there's zip code or the town on her. I'm like, no, you have to put everything.1 (33m 19s):So there is a, I met someone at my coworking space who is like, I think 25 and they didn't know to put stamps on letters. So he just4 (33m 34s):Imagined that he1 (33m 34s):Was going to the post box and I said, oh, you're going to the postbox. I said, oh, you forgot your stamp. He goes, what? I was like, oh my God. Anyway.2 (33m 46s):And also I have to backtrack about one of the things that John C. Reilly thing was that a DePaul production or Novus Devin4 (33m 54s):Oh seven2 (33m 55s):Will forever. Right? Okay.4 (33m 57s):It must've been one of his first jobs out of school cause it was 1986. And I was also looking because there was this amazing picture of him from Gardenia, I think in the brochure. So then not only are in the magazine that I had, I don't think I ever got a brochure in the mail. It was this magazine. I'm going to find out the name of it. Cause it was just a cool little magazine that the theater kids, theater nerd, Scott, and we, and I got it for free when I was the president of, at that speeds. And so there was this wonderful picture that was some of the, you know, lovely glorious lady like grabbing, holding onto his leg or something was very dramatic. And this story goes further because then I'm at the theater school is my freshman year and there was the God squad party.4 (34m 39s):Nobody's really talked about the gods squad a little2 (34m 41s):Bit.4 (34m 43s):So the God squad party, I don't remember who my God parent was. I don't even, I must not been very good cause I have no idea who it was, but I was at this party and John C. Riley was there.2 (34m 56s):You must've been levitating.4 (34m 59s):And Don Elko was there. There was teachers therapy for smoking and drinking with the teachers. I was like, mind blonde, what's going on? And I said, I want it to John C. Riley in the kitchen, leaning up against the kitchen sink with like a beer or something. And I was like, excuse me. I need to tell you it's still on me about why I'm here. You know? Like I got tell him2 (35m 22s):That he's4 (35m 23s):A nice guy. Remember what he said? I don't remember anything. I was just like, that's1 (35m 27s):So good that,4 (35m 29s):And this is before yeah, it was famous. Right. And he might not have even ended up being famous. This is like, I thought he was that famous from skiing. That fricking page, the stage new person traveling around tiny little rural towns of Illinois.1 (35m 45s):That's amazing.4 (35m 47s):So I would love to know what he thinks of that, that show. If he has memories of doing it, who the other,1 (35m 53s):This podcast. I mean like you'll listen, you'll listen to, if you listen to some of the podcasts, you'll hear my John C. Riley story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny.4 (36m 1s):Oh, you have one too. Okay. I've been, I went this way. I have bags. I went down deep dive last night.2 (36m 9s):I love that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they find the podcast go and listen to a bunch of. So what was the experience like for you? You were walking down memory lane. What was it making you feel?4 (36m 21s):Ooh, I don't know. Now it's making me want to cry. It was, you know, I was 17 and I started there. I had no idea what I'd got myself into and a lot of it, you know, really broke my heart, but I also think it may, you know, like everyone else has said it made me who I am, made me kind of a tough skinned bad-ass, but I'm also a hyper empath and have trauma. And so now I have to deal with, you know, all of that in my old age. But I did have experiences there in classes with certain teachers, with certain instructors, certain directors, I lived with five girls in a two bedroom apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden.4 (37m 13s):We were all poor. Nobody could afford anything else I could barely afford to go to showcase. It was only in New York that year was when they went back and forth between New York and LA I guess, or I don't think we'd even started doing LA. It was the only New York and yeah, I don't know. I mean the whole casting pool process, the whole cutting process. I mean, obviously it didn't get cut, but that was, you know, traumatic. I've heard other people talk about how they didn't really think about it or this and that. Like Eric Slater was like, I don't really think about it. And I was like, I have to say,2 (37m 45s):I hope that isn't over the wrong way. A lot of men didn't really4 (37m 47s):Think about it. I was going to say, it goes a little bit ago and I know him, I'm friends with him and sat there for a little bit of privilege there.2 (37m 55s):Just like, it's just, it's like how a fish doesn't know it's in water. Like you just don't know.1 (38m 1s):Yeah. I mean, they just are doing their set dance. Right. And everyone's dancing around them, but we sort of had to do our own thing. What do you think the tears are about? Like when you, when is it just raw motion or is there like tears for young, a young version of you? Or like it's just a lot.4 (38m 22s):I'm a very teary person. I think. I don't know exactly what it is. I'm in therapy. It's I know. I just,1 (38m 29s):I am the same way. Like I,4 (38m 32s):I get, I get overwhelmed. I get really moved just by kind of yeah. And that sort of strange and weird that I'm still there in some weird way. Like I'm an adjunct, I teach the non-majors, but I'm there. And I went back actually, Rick Murphy directed a show that I adapted for the children's theater called the selfish giant and other wild tales. W I L D E all the Oscar Wilde's fairytales and Alvin McCraney was in it. First of all, Oscar Wilde wrote, wrote, he wrote fairytales and I had actually adapted another book that somebody else ended up having the rights to.4 (39m 13s):And so Rick was like, well, you know, I know you really wanted to do that one, but if you find something else, I'll still direct it. And so I was like, okay, let's do this. And so I adapted us, grows fairytales. Awesome. For me to read, love, to read that I can find it somewhere. Might actually be a hard copy of it and I'd have to like scale or something. I don't know where it is. That was like 2002. I think there's also pictures of that. I also found which I didn't know the production history of the theater school online. You get the pictures for almost everything and they're almost all taken by John Bridges, right. Bridges, which is amazing. Cause these, I don't know why I only have these two printed out of the old whore and the sister-in-law from the good person of such one, which actually is like a happy, sad, weird story because I auditioned to be course and I was called back for it and I really wanted it.4 (40m 8s):And it was that awful time where they would post on our side of the theater school, glass doors that casting it like midnight. So we would come there while we waited and we went to the door and not only did I not get it, but one of my friends got it, of course. Cause how were, how was it not going to be your friend gets it? And, and then I see old whore and sister-in-law, and I just, I had heels on and I took them off and I started running and I like cut my feet up, running in the street crying and like old 18 years old. And your sister-in-law told her, well, that's another thing, you know, because of my voice and my larger frame, I've always been cast older.4 (40m 53s):Even in high school. I have a very traumatic story actually being in high school. And my father dying when we were doing cheaper by the dozen, which if you know the story, the dad leaves at the end and doesn't come back cause he dies and we're doing this play. And it was must have been like the end of the rehearsals right before we opened. And my director who was one of the English teachers at my high school, I remember being on the phone with her because I remember exactly where I was standing in my house. And instead of being like really sympathetic about my dad dying, she was talking about how I was the younger of three of the sisters and the girl that got the older sister, which is the part I wanted, who was the daughter of another English teacher who was always getting all the parts I wanted.4 (41m 34s):She didn't have as big of breasts. And my English teacher was like, maybe we can, you know, tape you down. And I thought, why didn't you just cast me as the older sister plus I was wearing this like beautiful, old, like 40 suit. That was my mom's was vintage suit that I loved. So it was kind of tight and probably did really show my frame. I was 15 and my dad had just died. This woman's telling me to tape my breasts down.2 (42m 7s):So yeah,4 (42m 7s):I always, I always got cast older and I can see what2 (42m 10s):He went down the road of wanting to do feminist theater. I mean, it sounds like from an early age, you were, you were made aware of double standards and beauty standards and all that kind of stuff.4 (42m 21s):1994, I think it was, I had graduated. I was auditioning. And it was when you had to look in like this paper for the auditions and there was like a line you called, oh God, I wish I could remember it. It was, you had to call this line and stay on hold forever and listen to all the audition notices. And there was an audition for pump boys and dynamics, which I was excited about. Cause I'd seen it when I was younger with my mom and I thought, oh, that's fun. And it literally said the men will be paid. And I got a fucking article in the Chicago Tribune about that.2 (42m 55s):You did. Oh, tell us about it. You just wrote about,4 (42m 60s):You know, they they're, they're like backpedaling about, it was like, well it's because the musicians they're going to get paid and the musicians are mad at first of all, now I'm thinking back like, why did the musicians have to be men? And you literally still wrote, the men will be paid. He didn't write, the musicians will be pay. So yeah. I don't know how I did it now. Now it's all kind of a blur. I just started calling places and I got a reporter from the Tribune to like talk to me and do a whole article about it.2 (43m 25s):Oh. So you're really tenacious. That's what I'm getting. I'm getting that. You get something, whether it's a goal or you're trying to write an injustice and you attach yourself to it,4 (43m 36s):Right. I'm an Aquarius moon. I know this. Isn't an astrology podcast, but I've looked at your side. I've learned in the last couple of years, I'm Scorpio, sun cancer, rising, thus the tears and then Aquarius moon, thus the righteous justice for all.2 (43m 52s):I love that. I love that you4 (43m 54s):Did tons of work after school ended up doing tons of work like in, in schools, after-school programs, writing and drama programs and things like that, which ended up taking me to go back to graduate school and get the Mae and education. But then that was like a lot of solo performance work I did too, with this woman, faith wilding, who was like, look her up. She likes started women house it, I think Cal arts and like the seventies, she has this famous piece where she rocks in a rocking chair and says, I'll, I'll wait until I'm old enough. I'll wait till I fall in the I'll wait until I'm married. I'll wait. You know, just incredible woman who taught this class called new feminisms. She taught one called body skin sensation.4 (44m 37s):I mean just, and so I was doing all this incredible work again, looking at myself and being a woman and being an actor and what the trauma that I'd been through. And then my thesis was doing a performance experiment with a bunch of young women from all over Chicago, like high school age women talking about their mothers and feminism and teaching them about feminism and1 (45m 1s):Well what, okay, so, so a question for you, first of all, I tidbit I have to share that we ha we spoke with, I think it was Joel Butler who was a stage manager and said that they would come out and walk to tease us. When we were waiting for the list to come home, they would pretend that they had news and go like the people who weren't involved. Anyway, I just have to say the whole thing was a setup. Like the whole thing was a fucking setup. So all it was like the hunger games and it was also that in itself was a play like a theatrical experience of man.4 (45m 41s):I don't really know how they do it now. It's all online.1 (45m 44s):It's all online. Yeah. They sent you an email with your casting, but I'm just saying like, when I look back, my little corner of the world was walk, walk, walk, look at the list. Feel like shit, walk, walk, walk. But there was a whole play happening around us of everyone knew what the fuck was going on. And it was part of the thing to have this sort of, yeah, it was, it was a production, it was a fucking production, a tragedy for most of us. Right? Like, and anyway, it just was interesting to hear the perspective, like everyone knew what was going on and everyone played a part is what I'm saying is what I get from the theater school. Like it was all back in the day. Anyway, it was all part of a thing.1 (46m 24s):And like, you get the idea2 (46m 26s):We're working through for some of the faculty who, you know, themselves couldn't realize their professional dreams. And you know,4 (46m 35s):That makes me so sad. I hope that it's really not1 (46m 40s):Okay. I mean, like it's not okay, but it's like, they, we, a lot of times we talk on this podcast, right. About the psychology of never fixing what you needed to fix in the first place inside of yourself gets fucking played out all over everywhere.4 (46m 54s):We are living in a new time of awakening and people being able to talk about their trauma. That was not that time. And that was also the time, like I said, where the teachers were coming to parties with us and drinking and somebody else was mentioned, somebody else was mentioning, you know, relationships between faculty and students. I only knew a couple of those instances, but yeah, the fact that they happen at all and yeah, yeah. I've found that like in my own teaching, like even, even in the last couple of years and I've been doing it for a long time, I just I've become so much more transparent. Like I talk about my own mental health issues or what's going on with me or I, I check in and check out with them every day. And it's like, what's something beautiful you saw today.4 (47m 35s):What, what are you going to do good for yourself when you leave this zoom glass, whatever, you know, like, so I think that as a culture we're evolving as facilitators instructors teachers, but yeah, we were there at a really hard, whoa time. I, for sure. I mean, you were there pretty shortly after that, but also I had some amazing experiences. I loved Betsy Hamilton. I loved John Jenkins. Jim. I still laugh. I actually had for two years cause Adam second year and fourth year, which nobody did because he randomly taught second year acting one year for some reason. And everybody had him for fourth year for what that was called, like ensemble or exit or whatever the hell it was called.4 (48m 19s):So I had him second and fourth year. He actually told me at one point, heard him out, what you're doing, why are you an actor? You should be a singer. And so then I sang in the, oh no, it was after I sang in this, it was Rob chambers thesis show Baghdad cafe. And I sang backstage live for just a couple parts of the show. Just Rob asked me to do this. I don't even remember how that all came about. And, and you know, Jim being the jazz and music aficionado called me to his office and was like, what are you doing? You should be a singer. Shouldn't be the act. But was that ever a, a w dream of yours to be a singer? I was in rock band called dominance clam I did say I did sing a lot that there was a summer.4 (49m 7s):I wasn't even 21. So I would go, I've sang it like the Metro and I wasn't really supposed to be in there and, and Zach wards and Steve Sal and all these people from my class came to see me. And yeah, I wanted to do that and I would audition for musicals and stuff after I graduated, but just like Marriott Lincoln Shire and all those like fancy places would never hire me. And I would always end up in shows where I sent, but they weren't musicals, you know? And I also think I have a little bit of trauma around singing. I started singing in my church after my dad died. I was the song leader in Catholic church. Believe it or not. And I would go out the night before and be like smoking and drinking with my friends and then sitting on the alter with like the breeze and like, like Christ, what the hell are we doing?4 (49m 55s):I would say at funerals, I sang at my mom's second wedding. I sang at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding, my other brothers. But yeah, I say I sang a lot. I haven't really been singing recently cause I, I usually end up crying when I sing. I had a very traumatic audition, 2008. I think it was where I cried when I was singing the song. And the song was about the girl's dad a little bit on the high note and it cracked and the casting director will remain nameless called my agent and told them that they thought I had mental problems and needed help. Okay. Again, this is something that would never happen today.4 (50m 37s):Right. But it wasn't that long ago, 2008, she also said that I was dressed in appropriately. I wore a forties style suit and a pillbox hat, because that was the period of the show. How is that inappropriate? That's someone who's. And why you calling my agent how intrusive to call my agent and tell them that you think I'm. And then the funny thing about it was I had just gone through a huge breakup and had moved and gotten a new job and all this other stuff was going on, but that had nothing to do with it. And that's nobody's business and I was moved by the song. And don't you want somebody, that's just somebody who, who is scared of their own emotions, like, correct. That's all that is. Yeah. So anyway, I digressed cause that's like post theater, school drama,2 (51m 20s):But I've had auditioning. Okay. So you arrived at the theater school at a tender young age. You4 (51m 28s):17. I was 17 because I have a November birthday, 17.2 (51m 32s):And you did your whole BFA there. Tell us about some of your show experiences.4 (51m 41s):Well, the one that I was going to talk about was the good person of such one. Cause oddly enough, it's the only one that I have printed pictures of. And I don't even remember when or how I acquired them. I think I got them from John Bridges cause he took all these pictures and that one of me is the sister-in-law. I don't know that that one was like a production photo. I think that was him coming up. And he saw me in this moment and like had to get this shot. So not only was I not cast as Shantay, which I want it to be now I'm the, the sister-in-law on the old whore. So I'm like, I'm going to kill this. I had 16 lines between the two characters, my old whore. If you look at that picture, I have a blonde wig. I didn't wear a bra. I have a tube, top, a pleather red skirt. I had these hoes that had a dragon up the side.4 (52m 22s):So it looked like I had a dragon tattoo on my leg and high, high red pumps that I think were mine actually from when I was in a beauty contest in high school anyway, and I got these earrings, oh my God. I think I found those earrings too. They were Chinese lanterns like that opened up, but they were earrings and they were huge. And I smoked a cigar. Oh. And I, I don't know if you remember this or if they did this when you were there, but after shows closed, mainly the main stage shows they had like this post mortem, postpartum, whatever you call it in the lobby and everybody and they would critique. I probably blacked that right out while you sat there and just took it.4 (53m 7s):And, but I don't know if it was during that or like after that, I would just be like walking in the halls and all these teachers, some that I had and some that I hadn't yet even had made a point of coming to tell me how excellent I wasn't that. Sure. And it was not false. It was not put on. But I mean, come on. Those people did not give compliments unless they really felt1 (53m 29s):Whatever. Yeah, yeah,4 (53m 30s):No. And I was like, yeah, cause I freaking killed it. Cause I took it so seriously. I was like, I'm going to make these roles so deep and so real. And if you, if you look on the production photos, they have this screen and, and, and, and people would make shadow play on the screen at the beginning of the show to show like the street life of the pool or the Sichuan and stuff. And I got to ride a bike and I rode a bike across and you see the shadow of the girl on the bike and I'm like, I still look at that. And I'm like that.1 (53m 57s):So do you think that's, I love hearing that. That's a great story for me to hear. For some reason, it just really warm, but warms my heart, but also talks about Gina's calling you on being tenacious. But do you think that that sort of set a tone for, cause what I'm getting from you is that like you're simultaneously a, bad-ass a bit of an outsider never given your chance. Never really given the chance to maybe in terms of outside casting, do what you could really do. So then you take what you get and then you fucking kill it. Does that ring a bell4 (54m 37s):Kind of? I think so. And I think I've always been that way really. And that also being in that show, Joe sloth directed, it was Bertolt Brecht. And really got me thinking about political theater and theater for social movement and theater for change. And I really believe when I graduated and I started doing work at the European repertory company, I believed that doing theater could change the world. You don't think that anymore change sometimes, you know, it beats you down pretty hard when you, when you work and work and work and work and you have to have three other jobs. Cause you're in a theater company that doesn't pay you any money.4 (55m 17s):And I, I still like the best work of my life was at that place. I was client of Nestor and Agamemnon for three years. I mean, I, Y you know, yeah, the best work of my life, but was it going to say that there's a different, and I think it's good. There's a different culture, a different mindset. Now students now would never graduate and say, yes, I'm going to be in a school or I'm going to be in a theater company for 12 years that never pays me and I'm going to have three or four jobs. And it was nice to kind of almost like a martyr, poor theater, Jersey, Petoskey board theater mindset of like, I'm an artist. Well, of course I'm, I'm struggling and I'm poor and I'm, you know, but I'm for the oppressed. And so I must experience that.4 (55m 59s):I don't, I dunno, like it just, I wonder how much I manifested that, right. Because I, I would have auditions for TV and film stuff that I would get close to and just not get, or it took me. I was, I think, 30 when I finally gotten a show at the Goodman or no, wait, I was 30 when I got at apt in Wisconsin. I think I was even older when I got in the show at the Goodman. But anyway, yeah. You know, eventually I have done shows larger theaters, but I still will say, I mean, people that saw the stuff I did at the European rep and I was like 24, 25, but I played clouded minister and it was Steven Berkoff's choir master. So it was like the most rockstar frickin, you know, I made my own costume.4 (56m 41s):It was, it was all like fishnet. And I just like punched my hands through fish nets to make sleeves and high heels and crazy Kabuki makeup. And I stood at the top of this ladder Agamemnon. And I came out at the end with like Hershey's syrup on my hands after I'd feel them. And I was like, I mean, if you saw that as hit, you were blown away, this was three years while we did it, like in a regular run. And then it was so popular. It was so popular that we did it on Friday, Saturday nights, like late night. And then we were doing, cause we want it to be a real repertory. So at the time we were doing Agamemnon Electra, uncle Vanya, and this show called all of them are just, yes.4 (57m 32s):And we would also change this. You remind me, okay, this is what I think Steven Davis was talking about when he said he was in four shows at the same time he, he was in, he was in all those shows and yeah. So, oh my God,2 (57m 51s):That's super intense4 (57m 53s):Looking at my notes2 (57m 54s):That like, though, while you're looking at your notes, I mean, was that draining, not just the number of shows you did4 (58m 4s):The physical training. Well, also I was, yeah, I was like a waitress during the day. I mean, I had a job I had to live and I was a waitress where I could only work lunches because all the shows were at nights. So lunches weren't as busy. And if it was really slow at lunch, I mean, so I would find myself every day while I was working calculating in my head, how many tables I had to have, how many tips I had to get just to make enough for that week to pay the rent, you know? And at the time I was living with two British guys, actually, they're the ones that brought me into the European rep, my friend, Charlie, Charlie Sherman, who is a actor and director in and out of Chicago for years. I met him when I was 18.4 (58m 44s):And I worked at cafe Roma, which was down the street from the school. That was my job. Cause I also worked when I was in school. And so when other people were like, we're going to the dead show. You want to come? I was like, you get, not only do I not have money for that, but I got to work all weekend. Right. So anyway, he, he knew that I wanted to do the play Caligula and he called me up one day and he's like, oh my God, this company is already doing it. Maybe you should audition. And this was right when I got out of school. So I auditioned and I got in the chorus and like the first week, the girl that was supposed to place, Zonea had gotten a movie and left and they were like, okay, now you're the lead. And I was like, okay. And that, and that was the company that I ended up being with for 12 years.4 (59m 27s):But it was exhausting as it was. I know we did. We were also all like drinking and smoking and going to the bar every night after the show is2 (59m 35s):You is a powerful force. I was just thinking the other day, remember when you used to wake up in the morning and no matter what had happened to you the night before, and you're like, okay, well, but anyway, it's time to do it today. I haven't had that feeling in years. I haven't had that. Like I can even when some we've once a day, I'm super excited about, I don't ha I don't wake up with this body, like readiness that I remember feeling in my twenties and thirties. Okay. So look at your notes. What are you, what are some of, some of the points that you wanted to get to?1 (1h 0m 7s):So if a showcase question, I have a showcase. Cause I'm obsessed. Since I live in Los Angeles, now I'm obsessed.4 (1h 0m 12s):Oh my God, are you guys going to try to avoid? No, no, no, no, no,1 (1h 0m 15s):No, no, no. I'm obsessed with the idea of the showcase because I made such an ass out of myself at my showcase that I, we went to LA, but I know you were in New York, but what was that? I'm obsessed with the showcase experience because I think it is really one interesting, but two where DePaul lacked in so many ways to getting people to the showcase and then after the showcase.4 (1h 0m 42s):Okay, great. This was before stars and all that. So nobody was collecting money for us. You just had to, you either had the money or you didn't. And so I was able to get enough money to buy a plane ticket, but then I wasn't going to have anywhere to stay. So my friend, Sarah Wilkinson, who was also at the school, but a couple of years behind me, her boyfriend, Daniel master Giorgio, who's also been in a lot of TV shows and on, on, you know, Lincoln stage and public theater, like this dude that went to Juilliard, actually I stayed in his dorm at Juilliard on the floor cause I didn't have money to stay anywhere. And I also could only stay for like a couple of days where like other people were like staying the rest of the week or going out and partying.4 (1h 1m 23s):And I remember having like just enough money to do one of the things people were doing, which was go to a jazz club with Frick and Jim Osstell Hoff, which I did. And that was really cool. The other part of that, that was kind of messed up was in the, in the, you know, audition class that Jane alderman, God rest her soul. And I love her dearly and became closer to her. I probably more after school than during school, but in our audition class where you brought, you know, monologues, I had brought this monologue and then she loved it and wanted me to do it and was just like, that's the, when you're doing. And then I had this total panic about it and was like, I don't think this is right. I don't think this shows me in a good light.4 (1h 2m 3s):I'm going to pick something else. And I don't remember what my other second or third choice was. I did, I did have something else. And I remember calling her on the phone. I don't know if I called her office or at home. And again, before cell phones. So I remember the little window I was sitting in my apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden on our little phone, talking to Jane alderman, all nervous. Cause I was going to tell her I'm not doing that when it's not right for me. And she still talked me into it and I did this monologue from Roger and me, the film. Did you see it?2 (1h 2m 34s):The Michael Moore movie4 (1h 2m 36s):About the Michael Moore movie, Roger,2 (1h 2m 40s):The documentary about the auto industry. I mean, yeah.4 (1h 2m 44s):Yes. And it was the poor woman, poor white woman who sold rabbits. Pets are mate. Right? Pets are me. Got it.2 (1h 2m 55s):That's what I did. Wait a minute though. I have a feeling.4 (1h 2m 60s):So I actually became, I probably did, but I actually came from where they had tried to, to suppress and to change and to mold me into anything. But this hit girl from Southern Illinois. And then I did that. Right. And that's what I, I wore my boots. I wear my cowboy boots. I think I had my friend's jacket on my long hair. And I came out and I was like pets for me. Oh my God, mortified, mortified. And I only got, I got like a couple of calls, like one was from like a soap opera. And then another one, I don't remember. That was another weird thing. Like the same thing with the casting call we waited in, I was in somebody else's hotel room.4 (1h 3m 42s):Cause remember I didn't have a hotel. I was staying on the other side of town and the dorm room of somebody who went to Julliard. And so we're in somebody's hotel room waiting for Jim Mostel Hoff. And whoever else was with us to come in with like this list, it was literal. It was like my notes here. There was just like tiny pieces of paper with like telling us who got what calls. Some people were like, got nothing, got 10 that too, about whatever. Yeah. And, and mine were not meetings. Mine were just like, these people want you to call them or send your resume. I was like, they already got my resume. Everybody got what, what? So, you know, like I wanted to move to New York. I wanted to be a New York fancy actor, you know? So that was like really devastating too.4 (1h 4m 23s):But then I was like, well, if I don't get that, I'm going to be an amazing Chicago theater actor. And I'm going to show everybody that Chicago theater is actually better anyway.2 (1h 4m 31s):Yeah. I don't to remember VAs if I've told this on the podcast before, but remember how I did that thing or if I didn't get any meetings. And so then I snuck into administrative office at DePaul after showcase and I found a list of all of our names and everybody had gotten, everybody had agencies or agents names written next to theirs, but not everybody was told that. Yeah. Yeah. So,4 (1h 5m 5s):Oh, podcasts, then couldn't see my face gaping. Now what, what did you do? Did you tell, did you, what?2 (1h 5m 12s):I swallowed it and carried it around resentfully for the next 20 years. Yes ma'am I did my God. And you know, who knows? Maybe there was an important reason for that. Maybe it was, these are shady characters. I don't know what it would have been, but I, I know that I would have4 (1h 5m 36s):That you didn't feel. Yeah. I feel so bad for you that you didn't feel like you could, you know, go further, ask more. I don't know. Probably2 (1h 5m 44s):Carolyn it probably didn't occur to me. I'm sure it did. I'm sure. The way I thought about it was, well, this has happened now. It is over, this is the thing that it is forever such. I just, I would have never thought that way. I would have never thought to advocate for myself. I mean, I fought to find out,4 (1h 6m 4s):Snuck in there. You thought, well, enough of yourself to sneak in there,2 (1h 6m 9s):You know, whatever. That's that's for me to figure out because I, I, I that's what, but that's what I did with it. I, I took it. I took a carried it around like a shame instead of, oh, by the way, I didn't mean to blow anybody up. I just needed to say like, what's the deal? Like what happened happened, right. Yeah.1 (1h 6m 29s):I feel like it's interesting. It is. It is. It is just really, now that we have this podcast, we spend a lot of our time being like, well, yeah, what's the deal. Why did that happen? And, and what,4 (1h 6m 41s):I wonder what John Bridges or somebody like that would say about that.2 (1h 6m 46s):I I'm sure. John Bridges, who is a theater school loyalist to the end when say that, that I, that I misunderstood. He tells them he doesn't tell the truth. I'm saying, listen. And, and by that I've said a thousand times we understand that we couldn't possibly know all of the factors that went into any decisions like casting and stuff like that. And that there are certain things that happened. That felt terrible. That were for my own good, you know, but Yeah, because getting back to that whole thing about casting, I mean, I'm sure that the guiding principle in their minds was, this is what it's like, you know, you want to move to New York.2 (1h 7m 33s):I mean, Don, we had another person on here who told us living in New York. You, you you'd have to go wait in line in the morning at a theater so that you could get your audition later. And if you wanted to have, it had to be a lunchtime thing, so you could leave work. And those sl

Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.2 (36s):It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,1 (41s):But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.2 (46s):Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And1 (1m 0s):Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?2 (1m 5s):The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,1 (1m 14s):It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.2 (1m 18s):Yeah. What's the for you.1 (1m 19s):Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.2 (1m 56s):Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,1 (1m 60s):When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?2 (2m 32s):Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,1 (2m 42s):Yeah,2 (2m 43s):It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.1 (2m 55s):It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.1 (3m 35s):But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?1 (4m 18s):I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?1 (5m 1s):What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?1 (5m 45s):And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.1 (6m 29s):The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,2 (6m 37s):Wow. Oh,1 (6m 38s):Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.1 (7m 19s):It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,2 (7m 28s):That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.2 (8m 10s):I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.1 (8m 32s):Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.1 (9m 15s):Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.1 (9m 57s):I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.1 (10m 40s):And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?2 (11m 4s):Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.1 (11m 10s):What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?2 (11m 17s):Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.2 (12m 0s):And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.2 (12m 43s):Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.2 (13m 26s):Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,1 (13m 32s):No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like2 (14m 12s):You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.1 (14m 16s):There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.1 (15m 2s):And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.2 (15m 20s):Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.2 (16m 1s):I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether1 (16m 10s):I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.1 (16m 54s):And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.1 (17m 34s):So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this2 (17m 42s):And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.1 (17m 52s):You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.1 (18m 32s):You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.2 (19m 0s):Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.2 (19m 43s):And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.2 (20m 24s):The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.2 (21m 5s):There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that1 (21m 23s):More, or no, you just left it at that.2 (21m 29s):Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So1 (21m 46s):Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.2 (21m 54s):Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,1 (21m 60s):Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.1 (22m 53s):And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take2 (23m 17s):Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think1 (23m 20s):Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.2 (23m 25s):Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.1 (23m 41s):So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.1 (24m 33s):Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. that's the truth.2 (24m 42s):Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.1 (25m 3s):Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean2 (25m 44s):That they're not1 (25m 45s):At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.2 (26m 17s):If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.1 (26m 22s):It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.2 (26m 47s):Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,1 (27m 7s):Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,2 (27m 36s):Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another1 (27m 46s):It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.2 (28m 7s):Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.1 (28m 11s):I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago2 (28m 33s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.0 (29m 1s):Well,2 (29m 22s):Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads1 (29m 33s):And theater. I started out in biology.2 (29m 37s):Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get4 (29m 41s):My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.2 (30m 5s):Much more fun than actually being4 (30m 7s):A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,2 (30m 13s):But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.4 (30m 21s):Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.4 (31m 9s):So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?4 (31m 55s):We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.4 (32m 48s):She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.2 (33m 29s):That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or4 (33m 46s):Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.5 (34m 23s):That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.4 (34m 48s):Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.4 (35m 30s):And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.4 (36m 10s):So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,2 (36m 38s):Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?4 (36m 59s):Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,5 (37m 23s):Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old4 (37m 27s):Were you? I was 19.5 (37m 30s):Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?4 (37m 33s):I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,5 (37m 55s):I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.4 (38m 29s):Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.2 (38m 60s):Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or4 (39m 9s):So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.4 (39m 49s):So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great5 (40m 13s):Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how4 (40m 33s):Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.2 (41m 13s):Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help4 (41m 30s):You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.2 (41m 52s):It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious4 (42m 2s):Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but5 (42m 25s):Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.5 (43m 8s):And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?4 (43m 16s):I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.4 (43m 58s):And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So2 (44m 8s):That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're4 (44m 11s):Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.2 (44m 14s):So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?4 (44m 29s):It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.4 (45m 9s):And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.4 (45m 54s):So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.4 (46m 37s):And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.4 (47m 19s):And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.5 (47m 35s):It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.4 (48m 19s):Yeah. Yeah. It's5 (48m 22s):That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.4 (48m 29s):I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.4 (49m 12s):You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.4 (50m 0s):And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?5 (50m 15s):And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,4 (50m 20s):I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not5 (50m 53s):That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and4 (51m 29s):It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch2 (51m 40s):Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.4 (51m 45s):Okay. Not in my experience.2 (51m 49s):So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.4 (51m 59s):I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.4 (52m 42s):And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.5 (53m 11s):What a relief.4 (53m 12s):Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was5 (53m 25s):So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical4 (53m 30s):Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?5 (53m 37s):My God.2 (53m 38s):Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.2 (54m 18s):You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.4 (54m 29s):Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and5 (54m 50s):You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?4 (55m 8s):Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.4 (55m 48s):Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.4 (56m 28s):I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.4 (57m 17s):They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.4 (58m 3s):They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.4 (58m 43s):And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.4 (59m 24s):So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then5 (59m 31s):How did you do it? Did you get help?4 (59m 34s):Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,5 (1h 0m 8s):Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.5 (1h 0m 51s):Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?4 (1h 0m 60s):So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.4 (1h 1m 48s):It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.4 (1h 2m 33s):Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.4 (1h 3m 16s):Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,2 (1h 3m 40s):Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?4 (1h 4m 8s):I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.4 (1h 4m 49s):So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.2 (1h 5m 11s):God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.2 (1h 5m 53s):No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.5 (1h 5m 57s):And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.5 (1h 6m 41s):Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?4 (1h 6m 56s):Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.4 (1h 7m 37s):But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.4 (1h 8m 37s):And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.4 (1h 9m 16s):You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.4 (1h 9m 58s):And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.2 (1h 10m 3s):So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.2 (1h 10m 55s):And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been4 (1h 11m 21s):True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.4 (1h 12m 10s):They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.4 (1h 12m 58s):And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.4 (1h 13m 46s):And he fell, right. You know, they fall

Intro: Writing personallyLet Me Run This By You: What would you say to your inner child?Interview: We talk to Ed Ryan about surviving two theatre schools, surviving 9/11, and interrupted grief.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And I'm scared. Like, I think partially 1 00:00:34This is this, the main character is based on me. Like all our character. I think every writer writes about themselves. I don't care what you say, aspects of themselves. So I'm like, man, would I do this stuff? Would I, how far would I go to people please? Like that? That is what I'm wrestling with. That is what is, is, how far do we go? And how far would I go to people please? Now I don't think I'd go that far, but people do go far. 2 00:00:59People go far and feel like they're in a few state and feel like it wasn't them. That was making the choice. And, and I believe that I believe that that can happen. I also just think it's interesting in the lens of like, feeling, having felt for a long period of your life, that you weren't allowed to have certain emotions. It makes sense to me that you would be surprising yourself with where you can go in your imagination, but that would also lead to, you know, surprisingly like our, we had a conversation one time on here where I said, I don't feel like I've ever seen you angry. So, and you, you said you do get angry, but I just wonder if maybe there's just a lot of unexpressed anger and this is a great way to get it out. 1 00:01:42Totally. And I, and I think you're right. I think you're right on. And so, and I also think, and I wonder how, you know, how you feel about the idea that writing, right? Somebody, I wonder if people write and I don't know how you write, but if people read, I mean, I know a little how you write, but if peop, if people can ever write fully devoid from their own person, you know, like, like where they don't put themselves in their characters or their, if they're writing, I guess maybe if you're writing non-fiction I don't know. But when you write, do you agree that like each part of you and every, oh yeah, 100%. 2 00:02:24And I, I, in reading the Stephen King book about writing, you know, he, he realized like years after the fact about the way that he was writing himself in his stories, like, I guess famously and in misery, he is when he was at the height of drug addiction. And he, at the time he did not feel that he was writing the story about himself, but that's what it ended up being. Yeah. I mean, in part, just because like, how else would you do it? I mean, you only have your own as close as you can be to anybody else. What you really stuck with 24 7 is the ruminations in your own mind, the reactions to things, your worldview, your worldview is, is so people can recognize a lot of things about their worldview, but then there's all kinds of things about their own perspective that they would never think unless they had occasion to see it, contrast it with something else and say, oh, wow, I think about that really differently. 2 00:03:21So anyway, I think it's cool. I think it's great that you're going there and I'm excited to see where it goes. 1 00:03:32Let me run this by you. I started seeing, so I had a therapist that was this Orthodox Jewish man that I stopped seeing. It was just it. I always what I, you know, and it's so blatant at the time after, but during, during, I never see, like, I'm looking for like a father figure. And, and he started to say things that were, and it's all I'm on the phone, you know, but like he has six kids and he wanted to, he started saying things like, do you think that this is because you never had kids kind of like why my emotions? 2 00:04:13And I said, you know, 1 00:04:15I don't know it could be, but I, and you know, it was it's interesting. So I just had to say, you know what, I'm so-and-so, I think that I'm going to take a pause on this. I just don't feel that were, I was proud of myself. I said, I just don't feel like it's a good match right now for me, a good fit. I couldn't just say it's so funny. I have to qualify it. Like, I couldn't just say this isn't a good fit. I was like, not a fit right now for trying to soften that. Just ridiculous stuff, but that's how I did it. And yeah. And so I, I was like, okay, well, do I want to get another therapist? Or do I want to, so I do see like a coach, like, what do I want to do? 1 00:04:55So I started seeing, I had a first session with a coach outside in a park. Who's a, she coaches, she does a lot of career coaching, but I just, like, I've known her for a while. And I liked her and we got to some interesting stuff like, you know, and you've said some stuff about like inner child stuff. Like I never really felt like I could connect with the idea of making peace or taking care of my inner child. And I couldn't understand why. And I think I got to the point where the reason I I'm afraid to things that my inner child will hurt me or that I will hurt it. 2 00:05:35Her. Yeah. 1 00:05:37So, so I thought I'd tell you about that. 2 00:05:41Hurt you. Any idea what you mean by that? Like 1 00:05:44Sabotage, like my inner child is so angry at the way that my parents, and then I have been treating her that she will fuck things up. Hm. 2 00:05:54Yeah. By misbehaving. Yes. 1 00:05:57Misbehaving sabotaging. So there's not a trust there. There's not a trust. And I wouldn't have ever, whenever I, in the various forms of therapy and schooling that I've done in this area, I always felt really, it's not even that I bristled with when we did inner child work. It's like, I thought, well, I don't even know this is weird. I don't even know what this is. 2 00:06:23Yeah. I totally, I can totally relate. And I think I have had the same exact opinion, this very cynical sort of point of view. It all seems so I would just want to roll my eyes talking about inner child, but I think it's like that thing that I was telling you about when I did that thing on clubhouse and everybody was playing and I was just afraid of it. I think it's just that I think you learn to hide the parts of yourself that get you in trouble in the world for whatever reason. And then if there are parts of yourself that you first identify when you were very young, they're locked away. Good. They're locked away. Real good. And there's a real, I mean, just intense fear about going there. 2 00:07:07And I guess like the best signal that I have about that is that every time I start to think about it or talking about it, I start to cry, which, okay, well, there's obviously a lot there. I, I don't believe, see my thing about it is like for a long time I did therapy. I did. I've I'll total in total. I've probably done therapy. I'm going to say for like 10 years between different therapists. I, it's not that I think I'm done. It's not, you know, it's not that I don't want to be in therapy. I, there are reasons that I'm not in it right now, but I just very quickly be talking about my childhood became like, okay, but I talked about it and now I'm just complaining. 2 00:07:56Or, you know, now this is just, when are you going to get over? And that's the voice of like everybody in my family, like get over it. Everybody's everybody hurts. Like not even, not, not even everybody hurts, just like, get over it. You're your grownup. There's no time for that anymore. And I, that is the voice that I cannot quiet in my own head. So, whereas at one point in my life, I thought I had done all that. Cause I did 10 years of therapy. Now I realized I just never even approached it. I stuck with things that were more happening in my life now. Or like I would spend a lot of time like crying about my dad or whatever, but it wasn't like it's, you know, that was about him. 2 00:08:37It was about me talking about him. It wasn't really about me talking about me because I think when I started talking about myself, that's when all the walls and defenses went up and I was like, you know, and I, and I couldn't do it. And Aaron has said to me, a number of times, like you've never really dealt with this stuff and I, and I've just been so incredulous, like, of course I have, I've done, I've dealt with it a ton, but I really haven't. I haven't, I've done like layers of it, but I haven't, I haven't done all the layers. 1 00:09:06Yeah. And I, I could totally hear that and I can totally relate to not feeling, to feeling like I haven't really touched on it. And the reason I know that I haven't gotten to the core of sort of any inner child work is that yesterday when I was, when she had me doing an exercise outside in the park, like just trying to approach my inner child, the only way I could make contact with her was across a field with loud noise in the background with me yelling and her yelling back. So like not screaming at each other, but like there was, had to be a barrier. Like I couldn't the intimacy of approaching her straight on was too much. 1 00:09:46So I was like, Hey, I'm over here. And she said, hi, I'm over there. And she was like, really suspicious of me and stuff. But I knew like, oh, I'm really having, I have a lot of trepidation about approaching this part of myself. And so I have to have a separation, like a barrier. It has to be, it has to be moderated. It can't be like, I can't just walk up to her. There's no way in hell. There's no way. 2 00:10:13What's it. Like when you look at pictures of yourself, when you were really young, what did you think? 1 00:10:17I feel like I don't even know who that person is. Yeah. 2 00:10:21I have the same exact, whereas I know this just could be the difference between thinking about yourself and thinking about another person. When I look at even very, very young, young baby pictures of my kids, I think, oh yeah, their personality was there. You know, from the beginning, this is who they still are. And sometimes I'll share, I'll show them something and they'll say, you know, it seems like they kind of recognize. Yeah, that's me. Whereas I look at that person and I think, I mean, I've seen this picture before, but I, I have what, who is that per yeah, I've just have no idea. I think I, what I basically did, starting in theater school is just form a whole new set to start over. 2 00:11:05I just formed a whole new identity. I was just like, not to the point that some people get like my sister where they tell everybody that our parents are dead. But to the point of just, yeah, I'm this person now. And you know, and I'm, and I'm done with that other person, whoever she was, I hated her no matter what. And of course the realization realization I have recently is no, but I still hate myself. So I really haven't a changed divorce. And I, and there's a, you can't walk away from who you are, you have, you have to. 1 00:11:37Right. And, and, and I, I, my coach, Deanna, was like I said, I don't know who that person is. And she said, she's you, you just haven't integrated her yet. Like there it's you. And I was like, whole, I saw it as a separate sort of. So it's interesting. And she said, trauma, you know, we talked about neuroplasticity of the brain and trauma and, and how it's rewiring. Like, so, and she's like, I don't really believe in, well, I don't know if she said this, but I got, kind of got the feeling. She was like, she didn't really believe in mantras and all that, but she said, what happens? What do you start telling yourself when you are scared? 1 00:12:19Or when you have an audition, that's scary. I say, I'm going to screw this up. That's my mantra. I'm going to somehow screw this up. I'm going to, she's like, all right, we have to cut that off immediately. She's like, I don't care what you say, but you can't say that to yourself anymore. So I was like, okay, what can I believe? Like, what can I get stand behind? Because I'm not going to say, oh, I'm the greatest actor and everything. No, no, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that at all. But what I do believe it, I do have evidence to show in my heart and in my bones that things have that everything is happening at the time it's supposed to be happening. I do believe that I do. I can stand behind that. I can't say it's good. I can't say it's awesome, but I can say, so she said, all right, we're just going to go with that. So now, like, you know, I think, oh, what if I get a call back for this role I really want, and I know I'm going to fuck it up. 1 00:13:04And I said, Nope, it's going to happen. If, if I do fuck it up, it's going to be, because it was the time to fuck it up. Like I have to believe in the timing of things, because I can't really believe in the goodness of things, is that, you know, 2 00:13:17Right. And sort of similar to that is how I'm always just thinking in my mind that I'm just starting over at that. I'm always just putting the other the past behind me. It's, that's not you that you can't really do that. And, and it's all, it's every failure in every experience you go through every part and every iteration of yourself is a part of whatever it is now. It's not. So what's what this is making me think about is when I was in private practice, I became sort of known for treating really severe trauma cases. And so almost all of them had did. 2 00:13:58And the technique for integration when a person has multiple selves and just for people who are listening, it's not like civil, civil, and bark, like a dog, whatever. It's really a lot more subtle than that. Now in severe cases, people have these few states where they go and they're just doing something else. I mean, I had, I had clients who would get themselves. They would go into a few state and then do terrible things that really dangerous, dangerous, terrible thing. But the technique is you have them all sit around a conference table. 2 00:14:38You have, what's amazing to me is if, if you're talking to a person who suffers with us and they've never heard this technique before, they never go conference table, they go, okay. Yeah. They're, I mean, they're just immediately, oh, that's a good idea. They can all come together because of they're in their experience. They feel or see. And they all have very often, they all have different names and different ages and they have different things and they fight with each other about what they're doing. So I say, let's just do the conference table thing. Let's have everybody meet together and we can work on the agenda. But like the underwriting overriding thing has to be we, whatever we do, we want to do it United. 2 00:15:20And what it gets tricky is when you're, you're not doing it United and everybody's, and that's the sabotage thing. That's what you get a lot of it. The sabotage thing is like this one is, and it's all because it was all a coping strategy for not being able to, you know, the parts of yourself that were rejected by whomever get shunned. They don't go away. They just get shunted off into another part of you. And it's funny because I really see a lot of my dysfunction feels splintered like that. Like I can say, I can click into a mode. That's happy, happy, and positive. And, but then if I'm not feeling happy and positive, then it's like, I'm not that person anymore. 2 00:16:03I'm just this other sad, depressed person. Or sometimes I'm, you know, we all have it to some degree and I feel it a little too. It doesn't feel like different parts of me that have different names, but it still feels like it needs a lot more integrating. 1 00:16:18Yes, I totally agree with that. And the other thing I worry about, and I think, and I, I don't know if you've ever worried. I worry that might the, that part of myself, the small, vulnerable, whatever, I would say five or six year old part of myself is going to disclose some, even more deep trauma happened. 2 00:16:38Okay. There you go. That's probably exactly right. 1 00:16:41And I don't want to, and I am like, I don't know if I can handle that. Like I, so she is the keeper of secrets of when I was young and who knows what the hell really went on. Like I could have been worse than I thought is the, is the, is the, is the overarching fear 2 00:16:59I can see why you would be afraid then. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if part of your way it is going to be instead of, or like in addition to fearing that is like, yeah, that's scary, but she needs help. She needs, yeah. 1 00:17:14Yeah. That's what, that's what Deanna said too. It was like, yeah. She needs to be seen and heard. Yeah. And that's your way to freedom. And I was like, what? Because whenever someone says the way to freedom, like that interests me because freedom from such self doubt, freedom from such self-loathing or fear, you know, self like freedom from that seems amazing. So if someone tells me, you want to get free from this, you know, as long as they're not telling me some wackadoo stuff, but you, you want freedom from this thing, then it's going to take a certain amount of work. I'm like that, that I'm curious if I will do that word, which is just to say 2 00:17:58To our listeners, that the experience of doing this podcast has people are always reporting to us. Oh, I've reconnected with people. I'm, I'm healing things and remembering things, but that's true for us too. And I have reconnected with people that I haven't spoken to in a number of years. And it's so gratifying. I mean, that, that's actually another piece of this disintegration thing is like the person I was when I was in theater school and the friends I had. And I just basically with the exception of you just moved on from that and never looked back and you know, these are people that I love that I loved then, and that, you know, as I'm reconnecting with them, I'm like, oh yeah, you're amazing. 2 00:18:48And I'm just so grateful that we're having the opportunity to do this. I, this is what college reunions are meant to do, but they don't because it's kinda like one, you know, it's just, it's all because you just get through one layer of like, well, what do you look like? And what are you doing? As, you know, as an and, and I guess social media has changed that for people, like they get a better sense, but, but that's even, that is not the same as actually talking to somebody who you haven't talked to. And then now I'm like texting with people and it's fun. It's and then the other thing, which I've mentioned to you at least once before, but I'm still thinking about a lot is the people who I don't remember, but who remember me to me, that means I have just been so self absorbed that w that to, to a great degree. 2 00:19:43When I think back about that time, I, I almost can only think about myself and how I felt about things and whether I was getting treated well, or, you know, instead of like the fact, I mean, I guess that's human, but I just feel like if there's somebody who remembers me, then there's a re then the reason that I don't remember them is not anything other than I was just paying only attention to myself. And I, and I have compassion for myself about it because I, you know, it was just doing the best I could, but I'm interested in going back and healing those riffs too, because I, I think that something happens that has happened to me over time is like, I was never the most popular or the least popular. 2 00:20:37I was always in the middle, which meant that I ended up looking down on the people who were less popular than me and, and looking up to and resenting the people. So it was, I was just seeing everything in terms of like status status. Yeah. That's what it is. I have been entirely status obsessed in a way that is a complete surprise to me. I had no idea that I was status obsessed and it makes sense because that's how my parents are. That's how everybody, I mean, that's how a lot of people are. Why would I be unique? Why would I be exempt from 1 00:21:10Them? Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that we, that I get get, so I get so trapped in thinking I'm uniquely where I'm at, and that is garbage. I am a unique human because everyone is to a certain extent. And then we're all the freaking same. We're all worried about what we look like, what we sound like, who, what, what other people think of? What other people think of us and how we're coming off. And, you know, that's part of being human, but I think you're right. I think for me as well, when people remember things, I don't remember, people were like, yeah, we were friends and I'm thinking we were friends. And that is because I was too busy probably thinking about myself and what else I could do, or why it's, it's what they say in 12 step programs, really about self centered fear. 1 00:21:55It's like, I'm so self-centered, and, and 2 00:21:59She'll warm. I'm I'm shit, but I'm, but I'm 1 00:22:03Yeah, shit. Or I'm the special warm and a, not a worker among workers, you know, like it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. And we come by and see the thing that's really also interesting to me is that we come by it, honestly, that is the part that I have to remember. It's that the people come by the shit, honestly, including me, I'm not so special that I don't come by it, honestly, it's not right. You know? 2 00:22:26Yeah. I mean, right. Yeah. I think it is. It's completely amazing. I'm completely great. I, I'm an apropos of our conversation that we had a while ago about like constantly evaluating our progress. Like when I can get away from doing that, I'm just full of gratitude for, for, for what we're, what we've already done. Even if we never did it again after this, what we've already done has been so personally helpful. Yeah, 1 00:22:54Me too. And I do see it as a way also as, as we move forward as artists, as a way of building allyship with people that I once looked at as not nemesis, maybe, but like as adversaries or doing better than me or doing worse than me, or now it's, it just seems more they're equal. Like I feel more equal with people and I think that's a better way to go, because the other way is like, 2 00:23:20It's also just the truer way to go. Like, it's just a lie. We tell ourselves when we think we're so sped. It's like, okay. But I mean, among other things, it's simply a false, 1 00:23:31Which is why, like, things like the like organized, like army and stuff works because you all get put in basic training and no one is better than the, there were, you're all lower, lowest on totem pole. And I think that builds some kind of comradery. And yeah. So anyway, I just, I just, I don't know why I was thinking about that, but I liked that idea. 2 00:23:55I, I started to watch some of the showcase this year is DePaul theater school shows. I was just curious if you had seen any of them. I 1 00:24:07Have seen it. And you know, it's interesting. I, the, the way that they filmed it, for the most part, it's the same camera shots, right. Of each I'm like, okay, okay. I think that we could have been a little more original with that, but I think they were trying to be equal to everybody and not quote you. And, and also 2 00:24:30It's not a film school. I mean that, you know, I, I, for that reason, I give it a lot of credit because it's like, oh, wow. I wonder if somebody had been tasked doing that in our year. I'm, I'm not certain we would have gotten anywhere. It would've been 1 00:24:44In video camera shaking and like, yeah, yeah, 2 00:24:47Yeah. So it's cool. I'm happy for them that they have this. I mean, I'm happy for them that they have this access. It's probably has the same effect that it did when we did the in-person thing, which is like, not a lot, unless they're going to move to LA. But what I felt was interesting is looking at the acting and just remembering, like, talk about not being special. We all did bad acting in the same way, you know, which is to say not connected, not real, very, very self-monitoring of like, how is this coming across? You can see people thinking that, how is this coming across? Versus there was a few people who was like, oh no, they're in it. 2 00:25:29They're totally there. They're there. It's just ed. And I say, this was so much compassion because I think probably the entire time I was just looking, I was just observing myself. I'm sure I did a terrible job. Yeah. And 1 00:25:41I can see it too. And I, you, it sticks out when someone's really in it. And it is so hot. And we said this, and I, I think we've talked about this on the podcast. It's so hard to get there. It's hard to get, to stop the self-monitoring to be in the moment and just tell the story or be in the it's so hard. So what it happens and you see it, you're like, oh, that's gold, that's gold. And it's not to say that, you know, we all get there at different times and we have different moments of it, but yeah. 2 00:26:09Yeah. What's hard to account for, I mean, you know, to a certain degree, there is only so much teaching that somebody can do of actors, because what you really need also is just these life experiences that either do, or don't lead you in the direction of really understanding yourself. And if you're a person who is not interested in understanding yourself, you're probably pretty limited as an actor or, or like, or maybe even very successful, but just that one, you know? Yeah. Right, 1 00:26:39Right. You might, you might make a million dollars, but as we talked about it, that not equal being in the moment and being it truly like for me in an experience, just because you made a million dollars doing it does not. I, I is a recent, recent, recent discovery that worth and money are not necessarily the same. Oh my God. Oh my God. 2 00:27:04Me too, girl. Me too. I'm just like, yeah, because actually there are other, I've heard the phrase. It's not always about money, but I really have never lived it. I have always been like, no, no, no. It's always 0 00:27:26Today on the podcast, we're talking with Edward Ryan, Edward is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to have many adventures and different incarnations as an artist and is still on that adventure. And he's thoughtful and kind. So please enjoy our conversation with Edward Ryan. 3 00:27:47I was, I was a year below you guys. Okay. Okay. Okay. Edward, 2 00:27:52Ryan, congratulations. You survived theater school. I did twice. Twice. Yeah, because you just went back a few years ago to get your degree. So tell us about 4 00:28:03That. That was a very different, yeah. So you know what I did do some local theater, like a while ago I met a costumer and his name was Frank and he wound up teaching at a really small private school in Springfield, Massachusetts. And he's basically started a theater program there that's called American international college. And he said to me one day, like, how come you never finished your degree? He was like, give me your transcripts. And I, I, I got my transcripts. And he was like, you could be done in like a year and a half or two years and have a decree. 4 00:28:47Well, I didn't know I was going to be so, you know, affected by, was it, it's a school that serves a lot of sort of underserved communities. So there's a lot of first-generation Americans, a lot of first-generation college students. And in contrast to a place like DePaul, although we complained about the building on north Kenmore, the facility, there's nothing. I mean, they have nothing, these kids and, but their like passion and their drive is really what you know is so inspirational, you know? And they're like, we can make theater out of anything, you know, out of nothing. And it was kind of a strange situation because Frank and I were very good friends, you know? So all of a sudden he was like my professor and I mostly had to do academic classes to graduate there. 4 00:29:33You know, they took all my credits and I re I did a history of theater. I was like for like the third time, like all of, you know, this time I wasn't able to cheat. As I remember 2 00:29:46Cheating, I did cheat, oh 4 00:29:48My God. Anaconda make us, had every test that doc, whatever his name was, Jack O'Malley gave us. Oh, hilarious. And I've always been really studious, but like second year I was like, oh yeah. You know, give them up. 2 00:30:05That's funny because I don't actually remember the cheating thing, but when Dave was on, he, he referenced that, I guess it was widespread. I mean, you know, in a way, I'm sure they were like, oh, these kids they're so dumb. Just something easy. 4 00:30:20Get the same test every year, year after year after year. And luckily I lived, I lived with second years. So it was like, and you know, and she had them all, like, she was a stage manager, dramaturgy, Jenna, all a file. I just had to go in every week and pull it out. Yeah. 2 00:30:35I mean, are you the, one of the people who just got a brochure from DePaul and that's how you went 4 00:30:40With, yeah. With this gesture on the front, I never went to visit the school. I auditioned in New York and it was, you know, I had applied to NYU and I had an audition set up, but their auditions for summer, I didn't audition at the same time. And it was like really late. And I applied to Providence college. That was, if I wanted to like go the more academic route, dammit. And I remember going for my audition and I, I like heard really quickly that I got into DePaul and I just decided I never even went on my audition for NYU. 4 00:31:21I, I thought that the city would probably be a little too, you know, I was, I lived near the city. So it was like always my grandfather lived in the city and I thought that's going to be too much of a distraction, you know? And I really wanted to, you know, get an education. So I went to Chicago and I flew out and my parents drove all my stuff out. 2 00:31:42What, like, what did you make of it? Day one. What was, where was your head at with it? 4 00:31:47I was like, Chicago is so clean compared to New York. Yeah, it really is. I lived in Seton hall and I lived on the fourth floor in the corner room that was like ginormous with Cedric was Cedric steins was my roommate. And we had this other third roommate that we never liked. And then he got kicked out of the dorms, like halfway through the year. So we had this great big room and it was right above. I felt like the blues brothers, cause he looked at our window and they're like the El tracks by, but it was really close to taco burrito palace. Oh 2 00:32:24My God. I forgot all about TVP. Okay. Well they have many, you know, there's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I think that one is actually still there. 4 00:32:39That place like on a Friday or Saturday night was like, you couldn't get near it. And Rose's Tavern is like hole that the Mesopotamian woman who was like, let anybody drink. Okay. If you could walk, you choose giving 2 00:32:53Toddlers shots of you guys 4 00:32:56You'd be surprised. And there was some sort of characters in that joint. I mean, I remember like winding up at some apartment and being like, I shouldn't be here. What am I doing? 2 00:33:10So, but you left, you left after your second year. Okay. And it was rough. You said you had a rough, 4 00:33:16It was, I was, I was planning on living there. So I was living there for the summer. I was living with Cedric again and then Noel wrath. Yeah. And we were living like sort of west of everything, like up Armitage. It was like desolate. It was like this really weird apartment where I had the closet as my room. And I just remember like taking out the garbage, had to go out the back doors to this garage. And there was like this Harley biker who was always hanging out in there. I don't know if I was just like, this is where children get molested. I can't, you know, it was odd and Cedric left and he went to Africa, there was a trip to like Africa. 4 00:33:56And I remember Susan Lee was on that trip because he was like, he called us and he was like, oh, I met Susan Lee and wait, 2 00:34:07Susan Lee was just randomly in Africa with this girl. Don't you remember? That's when she came back and said to Erica, oh, I've got to teach you African dance. Okay. 4 00:34:18But, you know, I really, I really want, I was like, you know, I was kind of shocked about it and you know, I think it was a lot for me to go there. You know, I'm the youngest of five. And then my mother had remarried and I have four step kids. So my parents had like nine kids under the age of like 30. And you know, financially that no matter how much money you make, I think it's, it's a burden. And I was really committed to like the theater school. And I didn't have a warning that was sort of, you know, productive. I remember going to Rick Murphy's office and not having any morning, my first year of going in and sitting down him being like, you're fine. 4 00:34:59Get out of here. You know? And then my second year he was like, what the fuck is going on with you? You know? And he's like, what's up a tree Kessler. And I was like, I don't know if she hates me. And he was like, get your shit together or something like that, you know? But there was no like sort of actionable steps. And then when I left and asked back, I was like, wow. And you were talking about mushrooms. So for the first time I ate flushes and I wandered around Chicago and I found all these incredible places. I was like, oh my God, like a Paul said and all that. I was like input. And like I realized, I was like, in my own backyard, I thought I was lost. But I, you know, I have like some journal entries about Sundays are the best day in the world. 4 00:35:40Everybody does what they want. Even God rested on Sunday. And it was so much fun. Yeah. All by myself, just wandering around the city. But you know, people were like, oh right. Speaking of that, I remember I was dying during Eric Slater's interview because we got a phone call at like 6:00 AM, one day at apartment two downstairs. And it was Eric and he was, he had been arrested. And it must've been when you guys were doing Andrew CLIs and the lion, because he was like walking home. It was really late. He was walking home from our house, I guess. And the cops stopped him and arrested him. 4 00:36:21And we were like, he had to be like at the Merle reskin theater for this purport, like that morning. And I think we wound up calling John Bridges and it turns out they had just taken and he looked like a shady character. 3 00:36:38I don't know. But I wanted to ask 2 00:36:43Total digression, but I always thought in lineups, they got other criminal, like people that they know, they know and they can just random. Yeah. They get rent. I don't know about now. But you used to do this random ass people for lineups. Yeah. But the way you get them there is by arresting them. Well, I think you can, apparently in Chicago, 4 00:37:05I think he was drunk. He was probably stumbling. Maybe he was like, had a few beers and they were just like, oh yeah, public drunkenness let's go. But that was like one of the funniest. And it was like the day that my mother called me late, it was like crisis. You know, we went into crisis mode and it was like, she got out her clipboard and like gave us all the assignments. And then my mother called me that morning and she was like, is everything all right? And I always thought, I was like, you know, my mom just says that like intuition, you know? And I was like, everything's fine. You know? Like, and I remember saying to her, I'm like, I think your psychic should always, so you're, you're saying, so 2 00:37:47You didn't, it was, there was no, I mean, there was a warning without any information in it or 4 00:37:55Yeah, there wasn't really anything specific, you know? And like I had truly Kessler my second year for voice and speech. And I had had Ruth's Rupert who you, she was there for a really short period of time. And then she left, she came back and she was like, oh, I got a contract. I'll be here next year. And then she came back like the next week and was like, I'm leaving. And she got a job at Yale and she went off to teach at Yale and she taught Christian Linklaters work. And then Trudy, our second year. And I was sort of excited to, I guess, first she taught LSAC and other things and was doing Linklater again. 4 00:38:37So it was sort of like the same class again in a row. And I think Ruth was a really great Linklater teacher. And I don't know if I don't know Trudy and I just had something. I still tell, I, I S I'm still in contact with Ruth. She's my Alexander technique teacher now. And there was a 13 year gap in our relationship, but she'll always say like, oh, I'm going to this conference, Judy. I said, hi. You know, cause when I got my letter, it said that I had three absences from voice and speech. 4 00:39:18And to this day I say, no, I didn't, I would have never done that. Like I was pretty committed. She, I had a full freedom, so I was born like tongue tie and she was like, I want you to go. I never had any speech issues, but she's like, I want you to go see this doctor. So I went to see this Dr. Bastion. And he was an ear nose and throat guy that worked with actors in Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, let me clip it. And he's like, I've never gotten to do it. And I was like, so it's a little thing underneath your tongue. So it's, it actually tells your tongue behind your bottom teeth. Like everybody's develops that way when you're pouring it recedes. 4 00:40:00If you're not, they usually just clip it when you were born, but they never discovered mine. And so I wound up letting this doctor like do it. And then I had rehearsal for like my intro with Trudy. And I just remember meeting her in her office and her being like sticking her thumb in my mouth and being like, oh yeah, you have a significant overbite. Like, and just saying like, you know, you don't have a speech issue, but maybe if you got your tongue released, it would change your speech. You know, it's, I would love to see what it does. You know, I just felt like I was pretty committed to it. And David was my acting teacher second year. 4 00:40:40And in David's class it was like, I could do no wrong. You know what I mean? I remember like almost hating it, like him being like some like, okay, you know, you critique each other's like scenes or improv or whatever you were doing. And he would say, so who saw what ed was doing? And somebody was critiquing it. And they were like, what are you? He was like, you know, what are you talking about? Like, he was like, he was fine. Like, he was like, my opinion is the only one that matters. So, you know, and just being like, okay, so now they hate, 3 00:41:14I have to say I'm shocked that, you 2 00:41:16Know, usually the story is that the second year acting teacher hates your guts and then you get cut. Like, that was my experience. Cause I was cut and then asked back crazy, crazy. But, but it's interesting that David, that thought you could do no wrong in your, as your acting teacher? 4 00:41:39Well, it was really weird because I had David and first quarter I was in David's intro and he gave me a better grade in my intro. Then he did an acting class and I remember him saying to me, do you know why I did that? And me being like, yeah, like, and really having no clue. But I remember, I remember getting into a fight with him in that rehearsal for that intro and him saying something to being able to like, okay, well what, what, what do you want? And he was like, I don't know what, you know, just, you better try something else. Cause that's not working. Like he yelled at me and everybody was like, oh, and David and I used to take these, walks around the block at the theater school and have these little chats. And he was like, you know, he, he, he gave me every indication that he thought I was talented. 4 00:42:22And then I remember my second year of him saying to me, do you really want to be here for another two years? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I really want a degree. And he was like, what are you going to get out of us Shakespeare classes? And I remember, and I was like, oh. And then I remember telling him about my issues with Trudy and him being like, you know, Trudy he's like, I'm the head of the voice and speech, which I didn't even didn't really even know at the time, you know, it was odd to me that he was, and, and then, but then he gave me, but then he gave me a bad grade, like enacting class. And so it was sort of like this. I was like, what the fuck? 4 00:43:02Like what, you know? And I just, you know, and then in my intros I was always like a middle-aged alcoholic. Like every single one, you know, or that I was like the alcoholic vicar in that horrible, a farce that thought it'll coat did where my, like I walked in the room in my pants, you know? And Corpus, yeah. It was like, first of all, farce is tough. You know, it's a tough, and for some reason they thought, you know, I heard this a lot about our class. Like, oh, these guys could do it. Like they could graph it. Well, guess what we couldn't and it fucking sucked. It was just like Riddick. 4 00:43:43I was like, Betty Hill, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was just like, it, it, 2 00:43:50It, it's hard to be funny care, but like the experience it makes you funny 4 00:43:59Is that I remember seeing David's like intro second quarter. It was like bomb and Gilliad. And I was like, why don't I get to play one of these like transvestite hookers? Like I can do that. And then it just wasn't, it, it was like the autumn garden, my last one. And again, it was like, I mean, Eric Yancey, I drink so much peach tea my second year of, cause the dining room was my first one. And it was like all of these like waspy, you know, I played like one little boy, that's the scene. We, we, we sorta had a yelling match about, but it was so I don't know. I mean, I was, I was, I remember Noel being like I got in and you didn't. 4 00:44:43I was just like, I didn't really, the thing was, I thought they stopped going to New York for the, I didn't ever have a desire to be on television or in the movies I wanted to be in the theater. And I went to the theater school and I sort of saw that transitioning transition happening. It was kind of like, I have no desire to live in LA. I just think it's like the new years and fake foods. Like, that's all I could think of when I'm thinking of LA. Like it was a desert, everything there is artificial. Like every, every blade of grass is like planted. I don't know. And I thought I was okay with it for a while. Cause when I moved home and my stepfather died kind of suddenly like that summer and you know, it was one of those things like, okay, everything happens for a reason, you know, it's really hard. 4 00:45:34Yeah. My mom, my father had passed away, but he was sick for a really long time. And so I think she was like prepared for that and she wasn't really prepared for my stepfather dying. And so I was okay with it for a long time, but I really, till recently we realized like, I think it really, you know, I remember somebody calling me and asking me to do it a play and not wanting to do it because I had to a lot of musical theater. And I was like, when I did the first play, I was like, wow, musical series is so hard. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, you know, I sang a lot, but I was like, I hate singing. 4 00:46:14You know, I really don't even like it. And I just, so I, you know, I never saw myself as any Shakespeare characters. Like I was like, you know, I had to read every male part in high school and English class. I read every like male part while the teacher read every female part. And I was like, I hate Shakespeare. Maybe this isn't the place for me. What was disappointing about it is that I wanted it to agree, you know? And I was a good student and I think that my circumstance, this is just sort of allowed me to sort of flounder a bit and not really have a, a footing, not really have any direction, you know? 4 00:47:01So I had some great mentors and I did do some more things and, but very little. And then I moved to New York and it was really not about that. You know, it was about just see what else was out there. I just excited. I was like, okay, I'm moving to New York. And I had worked for J crew for a couple of years and I had left and I called them up. It was like a move to the city. I needed a job and they gave me a job and I started going out in the city. Somebody took me to a nightclub and it was like the first time ever. I was like, you know, we would go see, I, I saw the last grateful dead show in Chicago. 4 00:47:45Like we went to fish, meaner Bana when we were out there. And when I went into this like sort of world of these nightclubs and sort of saw all of these like characters that were present, I sort of became one. You know, I was, it was like my job to go out and, and have fun in sort of a clown. And it was, it was an interesting time in my life. I like to call it the turn of the last century, but it was like from, so I guess I, I moved to the city from like 98 till 2000, or I guess it was 99 till 2003 is when I moved here. 4 00:48:37So I was there for about four years, you know, I worked at the world trade center that was, you know, and I think that compounded things. And I think it sort of made me realize that I was having a lot of fun in New York. You know, I had this, I had great roommates. We had a great loft in Brooklyn, these crazy parties that were like before Brooklyn was cool. I say like, we've priced ourselves out of it. You know, we made it cool. And then, but it was nothing I could sustain or really even monetize. 4 00:49:20You know, there was always like the job that I had to maintain to with, I really had no desire to do theater and I didn't for about another 10 years till I moved here. And, and I was okay with that, you know, I was sort of working in retail and I realized, you know, later that the whole going out and becoming this like character, which I didn't really think I was doing at the time, but I really was, you know, doing things that I'd never done before, or, you know, even these parties were like insane. 4 00:50:02We would like wear like Russian military uniforms and have 200 people in a Japanese go-go band at our house and fill up, we would like fill up kiddie pools with water. We had a great space. And so we did, and I lived with a caricature artist and all these kids from Vassar and it was just, you know, we'd get like a sitar player and, and have like an opium den. And I just 2 00:50:40Have a question I have to go back to, what was your character like? What was your, your nightclub character? Sure. 4 00:50:48So I always joke that I looked like, like huckleberry Finn, you know, I was working for J crew, but I was, I was just myself, you know, I, I would, I had my baseball cap and I had this baseball cap that said ack, which is actually the three letter code for new work airport. And I'm sorry for Nantucket airport. My initials are the Newark airport and people. And so ack people. And I would like, have my pants rolled up different, you know, I worked for J crew. So I was like a walking, like, you know, the J crew like twist that, how it used to be pants rolled up at different lengths and like maybe, or I'd wear like a crusher hat or something. 4 00:51:29And I'd get in line with these people who were like going to bang, bang, and buying their like, you know, tight leather pants and stuff. And it just became like this. I was, you know, I was kind of like a quirky, you know, I dressed, I danced a little funny. I, I attribute movement to music to that. You know, I sort of just followed these impulses that had me sort of stomping my feet a lot. And I danced with my face a lot and I would show up with like a big bunch of gerbera daisies and a couple inflatable sunshines. 4 00:52:08And, you know, I had one friend Franco, who's the only person that I ever went out with. I could always go out by myself and, you know, leave by myself. And I would just, you know, do these fun things. Like, you know, I wrote like a Valentine to the world and like, you know, we put on red paper and pass it out to everybody. Or we would, we'd bring junior mints to junior, was the DJ and pass them out to everybody. Yeah. And people, you know, I was talking about the hat. People would say like, like, what does ack stand for? What does ack stand for? And I got, you know, and that goes to the three letter code for Newark airport. 4 00:52:52And I got so sick of it. I started this thing, like the hairball remover that Cass asked for by name, you know, like, and I didn't really, I never, you know, I still sort of felt like I didn't belong there. You know, it was kind of like this secret thing, but you know, you cold places all the time. And then people start, you know, recognizing you and, you know, you start like getting in for free or, you know, and I found these places where it just seemed, I was appreciated, you know, people would, and I met a lot of such interesting people. I mean, everybody from people who were, you know, Sharman to, there was some pretty, you know, crazy shenanigans that went on, you know, at the time. 4 00:53:44And some people that, I mean, everyone from Tonya Harding and then it comes out and she was interesting to me, but that's like the funniest story I ever time, I let her Newport cigarette for her. Like I do the Catholics, I would see it. Evan am, you know? Okay. 2 00:54:01So I'm just, there's like a theme here, which is that you went to the theater school for two years, and then all of a sudden you had to leave while you might have otherwise been processing your grief about that. You had to go all of a sudden process with your mom because she lost her second husband. And then you moved to New York to get that life going. And then nine 11 happened and you were working at the world trade center. So you have had major Griffis interruptus. 4 00:54:36It's true. Yeah. I, I think, and, and, and I've recognized in my life that I have a hard time, like getting things done that are in my normal routine. Like say, like getting my car inspected, you know, it's like once a year and it's like, whoa, you know, so when things like that happen, it takes me a long time to regroup. And you know, I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and say that I'm, that it, you know, these things like ruined my life in any way, shape or form, you know, I I'm, I'm so lucky that I, you know, I've been in the circumstances that I've been in and that I have a great family and that, you know, I always had a bit of a safety net. 4 00:55:25Not like some people, like, I didn't really have a safety net. Like I felt like in New York, I couldn't do theater because I wasn't independently wealthy. And I, and there was just no place to, you know, you really, it just doesn't exist anymore. You know, if you notice people who go to New York and become directors and, you know, actors are either, you know, inherit that position. I have 2 00:55:52Another way of making money, even though even this Celia Keenan Bolger's of the world. I mean, it is, you cannot, you cannot make a living, even if you're on Broadway. 4 00:56:04Right. It's true. You know, and it's, and it just became, I just became disenchanted with it. You know, I was like, I mean, I still love the theater, you know? And I was, like I said, I was really lucky. I had, you guys were talking about those monologue books, know like Jocelyn Baird is the woman who edited all of those books, which I didn't know, but she was someone who I did theater with when I was like in high school, she's who she picked my audition monologues. And she, you know, I'm still in contact with her. She's a playwright. And she went to Yale. She coaches kids on how to get into programs now, stuff that I was like, what is my brand, that kind of thing. 4 00:56:54But it's like, I, commercial theater I guess, was exciting to me in a certain way, but it was, you know, it was other theater that I liked too. And I don't think it was just theater. I think it was just art, you know? And I think it was like art in life is what I've discovered. You know, like everything is art, you can make anything artistic. And I think that's kind of what I do. I just haven't shaped it in a way, like, I need to write a book. 2 00:57:28You haven't been able to shape it because you've had suspend a lot of time in reaction mode, you know, to various losses 4 00:57:35That, yeah, like the whole nine 11 thing. I, you know, I remember, I didn't tell anyone that for years, you know, it was just something that, I mean, my friends knew there was, there was an Edward Ryan who died that day, who was from Westchester and star. And so there were people like my old boss, Alyssa, who was a harpist and a composer who I worked for as a personal assistant. And, you know, she just heard like names bred off. She knew that's where I worked. You know, we didn't have very few people had cell phones. I ran into one of her three sons and he was like, we got to call my mother. 4 00:58:16I was like, she literally was, she was afraid to call my mom. She was like, that was the only contact number I had for you is your house phone. And I didn't want to upset her. And I was like, oh my God. I just thought I was Ted. I, I will, could been, you know, it was, yeah, it was, it was a rough, it was a rough day, you know, I've had better. And it was my first day back after like 10 days of vacation. And we opened, there was a mall in the building six where the big divot down to the path, trains wound up, you know, the, the second tower that fell. 4 00:58:58And luckily, you know, we were really lucky. We, I, we locked ourselves in at first. I mean, we didn't have any sort of clue what was going on, you know, when you were sort of in it, even it wasn't until we got to the Seaport that we realized that there was planes being flown into the building. You know, I was like, we heard the second plane and we crossed the street and we saw the second building on fire. But at that point we thought somebody was like dropping bombs or shooting missile. You know, we couldn't, you know, come up with the, the idea of someone flying planes into the building. And, and I was like, you know, what do I, what do we do? 4 00:59:41You know, I was like, we're dead. And I was all right with it actually, you know, it was a, it was a strange feeling, but I was like, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not going to spend my last moments here, screaming, yelling, running, like, you know, there's like this peacefulness about it. And I remember my nephew had been born, my sister's second son who lives here and I had never met him. And so that was the only like little thing I thought about as a regret. And then luckily we were okay, you know, and it was a long, you know, process of sort of also from my loft, I could see this, you know, smoke stack for the next, you know, three weeks. 4 01:00:29And I, even that day, I didn't really process anything until I got to a friend's house. And I, I, they were all there watching the news and I laid down behind them. They were like sitting in my futon and I like fell asleep. My adrenaline like finally ran out and then I woke up and I went home to my loft and the two girls that lived there, Lily and Rebecca were there and they just like grabbed me. And I don't think I stopped crying for like two days. Like I didn't leave the house. I didn't do anything. You know, I talked to my mother, but it was sort of like I was at work. 4 01:01:09So it was like, you know, and I was responsible for other people. And I, I felt like I also have to advocate for those people in the moment, you know, where they were like, oh, you know, well, you can come work at, you know, fifth avenue that day. And I was like, yeah, they're not going to work anywhere today. You know? And it was so I didn't tell anybody because people's reactions were so strong and I didn't want to like tell the story all the time, you know? And so I just didn't tell anybody for a long time. And I realized when I did that, it was actually helpful, you know, to talk about it and to talk about the, the impact of it. 4 01:01:54And I think that it, you know, made me a little more, maybe maybe careless or in a living, but also really living like really living, you know, in the moment, you know, and knowing what that meant, nothing like a little, you know, little flying a plane into your buildings to wake you up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was 2 01:02:22Yet the third or the fourth thing, which is that you graduated from school three years ago. I don't know if you were what you were planning to do when you left, but then the pandemic happened. 4 01:02:34Oh yeah. Not even three years ago. It was a year ago. Oh, that's when you were done was a year ago. Yeah, it was may. I went back to school in 2000, I guess it was 2019. I went for, so I got a bachelor's degree, but I went to Nepal for two years and I went there for a year and a half. So I somehow finished a four year degree in three and a half years, but yeah, I had enough credits. So I was like, bye. And yeah, I was stage managing for them a production. They were doing a little shop of horrors, which was really interesting stage managing and just sort of doing everything for them, for these kids. And I felt so terrible for them. 4 01:03:14And I mean, everything is still there. Like all the props we made, everything is just, I keep thinking of the Titanic it's frozen in time because they decided that even in spring, they were going to be fully remote because they didn't, they didn't think it was fair to leave it to the last minute to decide they wanted people to be able to kiss those sort of ducks in a row and, and know what to expect. Cause I think that was really one of the hardest things on any students or kids during the whole pandemic was like every, you know, the, from month to month, they didn't know what was coming next. You know? 2 01:03:49I mean, I kind of feel like that's how I had spent sort of the stopping and starting of Edward Ryan you've sort of stopped and started and stopped and started. And, and now you, you, you started school, you finished school and you were, and so the kids too, but also you stopping and starting. Yeah. 4 01:04:07Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that, you know, I have a little more, I have some more skills to deal with it. You know, I have a little more, it's like my work at school, you know, just cultivating creativity with this class that really affected me and sort of made me realize that I was more than just a theater artist probably. And do you remember those photographs in the like nineties of like different, like the Beastie boys are run DMC and they were on the rooftops of buildings. So this guy, John Nardell was that photographer. He worked for all these different it's, he's not the person you would expect to be taking photographs, but he was a teacher at the school and he taught this class and this class is so annoying. 4 01:04:55Like it's going to really drive me crazy. And all the kids were really like, he railed against like every assignment does a lot of work and we weren't allowed to buy anything. We had to make everything. And, you know, he gave us a lot of art supplies, but we had to like build vessels to like carry them in and incorporate every handout somehow creatively into this, into this book. And I mean, it was a lot of work and I would, I stay up till three o'clock in the morning, like, you know, making these things and doing the stuff. And he was like, you know, your work is like, incredible it's so it's, it's so much beyond, you know, what were some of the kids are doing here? 4 01:05:36And I was like, well, it shouldn't be, you know, like I have a little, few more resources than they have in their dorm and, you know, but, but the kids too, they were sometimes inspired in that to, you know, these kids to inspire them was like such a, a great thing because they were, so some of them were so disenchanted. And by the end of this class, you could just see that they had all found like what they were good at, like what sort of creative, artistic thing that they really connected with and that they loved and that they were just excelling in. And it was so exciting. Like it was really a, it was a great class. 4 01:06:18I 2 01:06:18Love that it was called cultivating creativity. 4 01:06:21Yeah. Good class. And I mean, you know, we either studied artists or, or, or techniques from Zen, Zen, Zen doodle, or 2 01:06:35Zen doodle. Yeah. There's 4 01:06:36Dan tangles. Yeah. Like he was a Venn tangle instructor. So, you know, we started with that. We did, like, we studied like in Stein and like, it is like sort of pop flags. And we each took a, a country. We were assigned to country and their flag and we, you know, created, you know, work from that. It was a really a great class, but hard, you know, these kids were not used to being asked to do to actually like work. I mean, the school itself knows who their students are. I think a lot of them have, you know, different accommodations and different, you know, struggles or opportunities. 4 01:07:18And, you know, they come from, like I said, an underserved communities and places, and it's like one of those places where, you know, if like Frank, the guy who ran the program was like, I couldn't let, just kidnapped graduate, you know, you know, like there's no way. And you know, whether it's paying his tuition bill or, you know, or raising money, whatever needs to happen. And, and, you know, he got me ready and Frank got me writing again. I directed, I took a directing class, which was a great read life, you know, so great books. 4 01:08:01And it was fun. You know, I really sort of was inspired to just be creative. And I looked at some MFA programs and I auditioned at Yale and I, I think I realized I did not get in, but I realized before that, that I, and Ruth was like, do you really want to go there? And I was like, you know, it's yeah. You know, and she's like, Hmm. And when I went there, I realized what she meant it, like, first of all, it's a shithole about bad facilities, you know, while you're waiting in an old computer lab with like broken computers, stacked in the corner, going this girl from West Virginia, she was a young girls high. And from what I was like, oh, this is what you thought. Yeah. You know, and I sort of felt like they had given the keys, you know, it was like the opposite of the theater school. 4 01:08:48It was like the kids were running that place. I mean, they held all the power and I think it's, it's sort of the way things are going these days, you know, with the me too movement teachers are one of the teachers at Yale said we are the only teachers that have to teach our students naked sometimes. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? We are the only teachers that have to teach their students naked. Sometimes 2 01:09:15The students are naked or the teachers are the students. What for, for zoom? I mean, on zoom, they're naked. 4 01:09:21No. I mean just different productions where, you know, they are directing a student who is nude and that's why there's intimacy coaches and all of that now, you know, to protect them. Because I mean, you can obviously see working in close proximity with a naked student that could open you up to problems, say like at the school, like what did Kat call it a spontaneous sex of study naps. I mean, there was a loud groping and touching going on that was like, you know, probably, you know, innocent, but you know, could certainly have been a trigger for some people. Sure. You know, like Trudy shoving her thumb in my mouth. 4 01:10:03Yeah. Not good. Not good. Yeah. So that was the day I had three, sorry, three absences. And I was, and I, myself use was damaged by habitual use was the other thing on my letter when I got cut from the theater school, self use was debt is damaged by habitual. You understand what that means? Well, neither did I. I mean, but as I think at that age, I just thought, well, I'm damaged. 2 01:10:31I also can tell you that Rick Murphy, when we were doing set, a very similar thing that David said to you, so I'm doing space work. Rick comes up to me, whispers in my ear. What are you doing? Drop out and go see the world. 4 01:10:48Yeah. 2 01:10:49And I'm like, I'm like doing work first year, second year. I don't remember. He whispered in my ear, why are you here? Go, go see the world or something. And I was like, what is happening? 4 01:11:02You know, I loved Rick Murphy. I mean, he was just like magic, right? I mean, this is not a pipe dream was like, so in captivity it was called freewill and one lust back then. And that was the other thing I wanted to tell you 2 01:11:20That it changed names. Oh no, no, no

On this episode of ActorSpeak, Austin Basis speaks with actor James Immekus (Lucifer, The Good Doctor, Grey's Anatomy, Mad Men). In Part 1, we discuss James' love of Ladyhawke, Viola Spolin, his mentor Rick Murphy, doing Boxboarders!, and making our way in LA together. Born in Crystal Lake, Illinois, James grew up in Kennesaw, Georgia, and graduated from the DePaul Theatre School in Chicago with a BFA in Acting. His vast theatre experience includes The Goodman Theatre in Chicago, The Contemporary American Theatre Festival in Shepherdstown, WV and the Center Theatre Group's Mark Taper Forum in Los Angeles, where he appeared in The House of Blue Leaves alongside Jane Kaczmarek, John Pankow, Kate Burton, and Diedrich Bader. But James has really made a name for himself with his extensive TV guest star work. He has over 25 guest stars & recurring roles to his credit in some of the biggest shows on television. He's not only an extremely talented actor & artist who respects his craft, but he's also a great friend & groomsman of mine...! And I couldn't think of better person to share this first episode of ActorSpeak with. WE AUDITION is a video-chat community where actors can audition, self-tape, rehearse, and get expert industry advice. USE promo code: ACTORSPEAK to get 25% off when joining at WeAudition.com

Tim Mahaffey, without question, is one of our sport’s greatest anglers of all time. His tournament success is astounding having won six of the major invitational bonefish tournaments and all three major tarpon tournaments. His three tournament guides consisting of Mark Krowka, Rick Murphy, and Duane Baker systematically honed their skills and methodology to target success against the top anglers in the Keys. Their focused crosshairs didn't miss too often. Here too is an important foot note to all this; for decades the major fly events were the Spring and Fall Fly Bonefish Tournament, The Gold Cup, and The Don Hawley Tarpon Tournament. To this day, Tim is the only angler to win all four. He is not only a phenomenal angler but an outstanding person with a beautifully kind way about him. Once he decided to move on from the tournament scene and not wanting to be off the water, he became a guide. There too, he’s made his mark. He guided Heidi Nute to a monster 152 pound world record tarpon caught on 12lb test (that later over tested and fell into the 16lb class category) and finished runner up in the Fall Fly. From either end of the boat Tim Mahaffey is incredibly fishy. On todays podcast, we dive into his success on the water. We hope you enjoy!

The Roadmap to a Successful Acquisition Strategy, with Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners Rick Murphy: [00:00:00] My two partners and myself – Bruce and George, my two partners, one here in Atlanta, my other partner’s in New Jersey – they and I take what we call discovery calls with the candidate company, so we can […] The post The Roadmap to a Successful Acquisition Strategy, with Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

The Roadmap to a Successful Acquisition Strategy, with Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners Rick Murphy: [00:00:00] My two partners and myself – Bruce and George, my two partners, one here in Atlanta, my other partner’s in New Jersey – they and I take what we call discovery calls with the candidate company, so we can […]

Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners (“Alpharetta Tech Talk”, Episode 22) Rick Murphy, CEO of Cogent Growth Partners, joins host John Ray to discuss his firm’s work with IT services companies seeking to expand through acquisition, why acquisitions are vital for acquiring talent, not just customers and revenue, why he calls his work “transaction therapy,” and […]

Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners (“Alpharetta Tech Talk”, Episode 22) Rick Murphy, CEO of Cogent Growth Partners, joins host John Ray to discuss his firm’s work with IT services companies seeking to expand through acquisition, why acquisitions are vital for acquiring talent, not just customers and revenue, why he calls his work “transaction therapy,” and […] The post Rick Murphy, Cogent Growth Partners appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

Charlie catches up with his buddy Rick Murphy in studio. They share college golf stories and talk about Rick's time teaching 3,200+ people in Colombia. Charlie and Rick also talk about the Kinexit golf fitness program that Rick helps out with. To close the show, Charlie & Rick talk to CEO of Kinexit, Chris Mansson.

You might know Rick Murphy as the host of one your favorite fishing shows, but we’re asking Captain Murphy questions no one has ever thought to ask. The post Q&A with Captain Rick Murphy appeared first on Garmin Blog.

"One Word" is the opening tee shot of the "On the Fringe" podcast. Guests Ron Schmid, Gary Schaal, Will Mann, Ed Ibarguen, Jerry Hogge, Rick Murphy, and Chip King share what it means to be a PGA Professional in "One Word".

On this week, Listen to Your Heart goes to Vegas. We say goodbye to one of our faves, but who isn't one of our faves at this point. We talk Shaggy, Rick Murphy, and a bunch of other stuff I can't remember as I write this...

On the next edition of “The Parting Schotts Podcast,” host and Associate Sports Editor Ken Schott talks to staff writer Mike MacAdam about the future of horse racing this summer at Saratoga Race Course. Ken then speaks with Tri-City ValleyCats president Rick Murphy about the passing of principal owner Bill Gladstone last Friday from complications from the coronavirus. They also talk about the ValleyCats' chances of playing this summer, and what the future holds for the organization in regards to the reported planned contraction of Minor League Baseball. Finally, College Hockey News managing editor Adam Wodon joins the show to talk about last week's surprising announcement that Long Island University would be joining the NCAA Division I hockey ranks. On Twitter, follow Associate Sports Editor Ken Schott @slapschotts and Daily Gazette Sports @dgazettesports. Email Schott at schott@dailygazette.com. Listen to “The Parting Schotts Podcast” at https://dailygazette.com/sports/partingschotts, Apple Podcasts, Castbox and Spotify.

Will McAvoy '20 interviews Frank Kartheiser '72 about living the Holy Cross mission through his work in the Worcester community. Recorded May 8, 2019 --- Transcript Frank:                   I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity, but that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas with others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at and that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves. Maura:                 Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura:                 This episode we hear from Frank Kartheiser from the class of 1972. Frank received an honorary degree from the college in May, 2019 to celebrate his career devoted to social justice. Among some of his many accomplishments, Frank founded the Mustard Seed, a Catholic worker house in 1972. In 1993, he expanded his focus to found Worcester Interfaith. Its mission is to bring people of all religions together to strengthen communities. Will McAvoy from the class of 2020 speaks with Frank about his time at Holy Cross and how it inspired him to pursue a life devoted to service and social justice within the Worcester community. Will:                       Thanks for coming today, definitely excited, for sure. Frank:                   Thank you for doing this. Will:                       Of course, of course. So first question here. I've read about the wonderful work that you've done and the important organizations that you founded over the years. I would love to hear about your professional journey in your own words. How do you come to your professional role and other involvements? Frank:                   That's a good question. When I was, when I came, I grew up in Chicago and when I came out here to go to school, big things that were important to me going to college were football and having fun. So I hope you had bigger dreams than I did Will. But it was during the time of the Vietnam war in '68 and I had to grow up in a hurry and the reality of what was going on in the world. I came in here thinking, I'll go into business, four years here and then I'll do that. But I then realized that people in our country who don't look like me get treated differently. And that was a wake up call for me, that was embarrassing and I felt guilty about it, but I think the stronger feeling was how do I give back? What do I have to give back to the community? So that's kind of what moved me into the work I do. Will:                       Interesting, that's absolutely amazing, I think that's awesome that you're able to do that. Frank:                   I had to drop out of school to do it. Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't stay here in school. I just needed to be out in the world. So I dropped out and that's when I did some work in the community and then we opened Mustard Seed Catholic Worker house. Will:                       Very nice. And you got the honorary degree this year, so that's good. Frank:                   Yes. Yes my family was, because I dropped out, My family was saying, Oh you're finally getting your degree. Will:                       Hey, its true enough, that's impressive. Frank:                   Well actually I came back, I did come back in 1987 and I came back for a year, got my diploma in 1988 so I was in a 20 year plan. 68, 88. Will:                       I've heard the five and six year, now the 20 years. Frank:                   Well it's college, why rush it? Will:                       Of course, of course. Enjoy it. So there's another question here. So what mission drives you? In other words, what drives the work that you do? Frank:                   I think the most important thing for me and I didn't always realize language for this. But when I read about Pope Francis, he's a Jesuit, his talk about encountering the other and what that means and how it moves us. And I think that said to me that reality is more important than ideas. So I was up here and in school and learning about ideas and what to pursue the truth, but what I really need was, cause as a privileged white man I felt like I just wasn't in touch with reality. And so leaving the school and starting to work in the community, that learning to be real. Frank:                   What that is like, what that's about, that's kind of driven me cause that leads to all kinds of caring for one another. Will:                       No, I totally agree. And now currently at Holy Cross, there's a lot of students, whether it be in SPUD, community-based learning, spring break immersion, a lot of those students are trying to do the same thing. I guess they're trying to follow in your footsteps in a sense. Frank:                   Well it's funny you say that. We had the community, SPUD had their community thing with the Donelan Center yesterday and this young woman who was leading it, a woman named Kate, she said, well she told her story a bit and she said, I came here to get into business and then I volunteered at Nativity School and now I head up the student educators and I'm going to teach at Nativity School for the next two years. Frank:                   So I said to her, wow, that's like my story of how the reality, how being in the world and real moves the mission as you were saying. Will:                       And I feel like the topic of this podcast, mission-driven, I feel like that's a lot of what the school does, helps form students in a sense and see what's right for them. So I guess on a similar tangent to that, how has Holy Cross's mission influenced your life? Frank:                   The, when I was here, when I came, when I started here in 68 we didn't really have a mission statement like that. We had an an understanding that it was a good school and work hard at the academics, but it was more this sense of the mission of encountering and being with people, being real. And I think now the mission of Men and Women for Others kind of came up in that period when I was working in the community. Frank:                   And initially it was Men and Women for Others and now the language is starting to change to get to With Others. And for me, I think that's an important change that's been important to see that happen. I think Men and Women for Others talks about charity and the work of charity. But that can be, that sets up a power dynamic of one over and against the other. Whereas With Others recognizes the basic dignity, worth, value of every person, no matter where they're at. And that we've got to meet them face to face and that we can do more together than we can do by ourselves. Will:                       So you're saying a sense of solidarity in a sense. Frank:                   Very good, yeah good word. Yeah, that sense of solidarity. Will:                       My freshman Montserrat class with professor Ginny Ryan, it was entitled Exploring Differences and Modifying Technologies. And we spoke about this one document called Toxic Charity. Will:                       Are you familiar with it? Frank:                   I'm not. But I've read a few different articles and I can't remember it. But it goes to that toxicity. Will:                       So it was actually, it's interesting you're referencing that, cause that sounds like a pretty parallel story to what I read in toxic charity my freshman year. I still remember it. Frank:                   Well for me, I dropped out of school and then we opened the Mustard Seed as a way to be more immersed. And what happened was at first it was great and we're sharing food, shelter, clothing, confusion, loneliness. We shared what we had, but then the line got longer and longer and more people started to come and it became toxic in the sense that we weren't there to have a longer line at the soup kitchen. Frank:                   That's not why we got into this. We were there to care for those folks in a crisis and then work with the institutions in our neighborhood so that people could move out of poverty, move out of that kind of situation. And unfortunately, I don't think we're very good in this country about moving out. Everyone loves charity, the for part doing for others. But this idea of doing with the justice dimension, we struggle with that. Will:                       I feel that. And the Mustard Seed is, it's still present today, right, in downtown Worcester? Frank:                   Yes, unfortunately, that goes to the point you were making, unfortunately, what's this, almost 50 years and we still have a soup kitchen in Worcester. We never, when we started it, we never thought this thing would endure. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that's not where the dignity needs to come from, where the dignity can come from. Frank:                   It needs to come from working with one another around changing systems that honor every person. Will:                       I totally, I totally agree. It's interesting. So on that same tangent, is there a certain person or experience that inspired you to live out the Jesuit mission after your time at Holy cross, like a professor or mentor that comes to mind? Frank:                   I was very fortunate Will when I decided to drop out of school to go work in the community, I bumped into professor David O'Brien and I told him I was dropping out and he said, well, where are you going to live? And I said, I don't know. He said, well, would you like to live with Joanne and me and the family? And that's probably one of the greatest things that's happened to me in my life. I had a year, it was like a private tutorial in the Catholic worker movement, community organizing, Catholic social teaching. Frank:                   So he's been a friend and mentor, both of them, Joanne and David, and they've been tremendous. Also, I learned a lot about babysitting too. They had four little kids, two, four, six and eight at the time. But it was a great opportunity for me and for growing in my faith because faith had kind of gotten a little flat for me because my whole life had caved in. Looking at the world, what was going on, realizing how much privilege I had, but how other people weren't treated the same. And that kind of tore at my, the fabric of my Catholicism and being an American. And so to get these tools from Dave to think about other ways of being in the world that was invaluable for me, still is. Will:                       That's really cool. And I can also say, I think there's been several professors who have done something like that. Will:                       They haven't, they haven't taken me into their home and raised me but I have parents for that. But that's awesome that they've done that, for sure. So in regards to your work that you've done in the 40 or so years post your first year of college 50 or so years, what has surprised you most about your work? Frank:                   I think what continues to surprise me is what little impact I've been able to have, or we've been able to have. Cause there's nothing that I want to do in the world that I can do by myself. Obviously all the things I want to do, I need other people. But we were talking earlier about the college this year dealing with demonstrations and sit ins and a lot of it comes back to race and gender and income inequality. Well that was 68 and 69 it was all those same issues. Frank:                   And so I guess it's feeling the frustration of that and then the yearning to how do we continue to try to have a deeper impact on what's happening. Will:                       And when you're saying that, it's like tough to just not make that much of an impact. Have you ever heard like the starfish analogy? When you said that, that immediately came to mind for me. So it's like you see a beach full of starfish and you're just one person on the beach and you're throwing a few starfish in but at least you're making a difference to that one starfish that you can help. Frank:                   The only thing I don't like about that story, I'd go try to organize a couple of hundred people, so that we could get a couple of hundred in at a time. I'd be a little frustrated by myself one starfish at a time. Frank:                   That's what moved me from doing the soup kitchen and doing the Catholic Worker Movement. I'm still part of it, but move me to think about community organizing as a tool for justice. Community organizing is the antipoverty tool of the Catholic church. And it has been a tremendous gift to me. It's been a way of life really. Will:                       And I remember at the Nonprofit Careers Conference this past winter break, I remember you spoke about that. It's about the 30 or so students that were there listening about community organizing and talking about how many of these famous people that we know of, like our former president, president Obama was a former community organizer. So I think that's, that's really impressive that community organizing and being introduced to that field. It's awesome. Frank:                   And I think we struggle with what it is. Frank:                   How do we do it better and how do we have these broader impacts. We all know that it takes people, but in this country the wealth dynamic is so out of whack that I think it threatens our democracy where people feel like they can come together and have the impacts that they want and that we need and that wealth. I mean, in other words, everyone knows that my vote is not as important as Bill Gates and how do you deal with that kind of inequality? Will:                       So another question we have here. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life? Frank:                   Say that again. Will:                       Sure. In what ways have you faced challenges in incorporating your service work and social justice into your career life? Frank:                   So my career is social justice. I'm not sure how to incorporate it, but I go back to the part about being at the Mustard Seed and when I was at Holy Cross and realized that people who don't look like me don't get treated the same. That was very discouraging and depressing for me and a guilt driven. And then when I was at the Mustard Seed and I saw the line getting longer and things not improving, just things getting work worse for people. That forced me to ask these questions. Why? Why is this happening? Why in the richest country in the world do we need soup kitchen? And those questions why were pushed me into more of the social justice piece. And then I had to figure out, well how do you do it? How do you do this social justice thing? And what came to out of Catholic social teaching was a recognition of community organizing as the key tool. But we got to do a better job than that. We got to do other kinds of ways to put social justice and social change to work. Will:                       So on a similar tangent, so this is in comparison to college campus and the rest of the society of the world. So like on a college campus there is a clear cut way to bring up a new idea and certain channels exist to help implement these new programs or initiatives, in the workplace that may be a different story or basically in society. For example, for you in the Worcester society, do you have any experience of bringing up a new initiative? And how did you successfully do that? Frank:                   That was my job to bring up new initiatives and the dynamic is a power dynamic, right? And so I needed to build power. That's how you bring up new ideas. New ideas don't come out of the mind. When I was saying that before about Pope Francis talking about reality is more important than ideas. There's a ton of great ideas and ton of great things to do. But if you don't bring people together who have the muscle to put their values into action on these new ideas, the best idea in the world is going nowhere. Does that make sense? Will:                       Completely. Frank:                   And so when we're doing for people, the power dynamic is almost power over. The organizing dynamic is power with. So how do we come together, make the kind of compromise, get political and make the compromises that we need to make in order to raise not the best idea, but an idea that the broadest number of people can get behind to move things forward. Frank:                   Now some people argue that a camel is a horse made by a committee. And people hate meetings and, but I'm with Martin Buber, Martin Buber, everything is about meeting. Everything. And that's Pope Francis: encounter. And I'm not in a way to manipulate the other into doing you, what you want. I wouldn't, I'm such a whore for power. I would manipulate people. I just can't do it. It doesn't work. Or you could guilt guilt them. But unfortunately I'm Catholic, so I know the power of guilt, but it doesn't work. What works is respecting the other person and their interests and then sharing your interests and carving out opportunities for joint action. To me, that's a good idea. You see what I'm getting at?  I don't care what, I don't care what the idea is so much. What I care is that in this we have the opportunity to develop the relationships that we need to have enough trust so that we can hang together in the hard times to see that idea through to the end. Frank:                   Does that make sense? Will:                       No, completely. Frank:                   Trust in our communities is shattered. We talked about Barack as a organizer. What Barack said, the problem in the inner city isn't a lack of solutions. It's a lack of power to put those solutions to work and the reason there's a lack of power in many of our inner cities is what Barack called chronic isolation. Chronic isolation, that's the definition of powerlessness. So how do we build power? Power doesn't mean you get what you want. Power means you get a seat at the table where decisions are being made about your life, about who you are, about your family, about your neighbors. The line. I don't know if you've heard this Will they say, well, if you're not on the, if you're not at the table then you're probably on the menu. Will:                       That's tough, no it is tough. Will:                       Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, interesting, that's a good analogy. So in regards to balancing your home life and then also your career working in the Worcester community, how are you able to balance everything? And in regards to the students who are going to be listening to this, what would advice would you give them in regards to that? Frank:                   I think love, love balances everything. There's a great line from attributed to, Arrupe. Will:                       Father Pedro Arrupe? Frank:                   Pedro Arrupe. Will:                       The Superior General of the Jesuits. Frank:                   Have you heard this, I don't know if you've heard it. It's like nothing is more practical than finding God. And he goes through, but at the end he says, "fall in love, stay in love, and it will decide everything". And I think, I think that's the tool, so the love helps decide everything and fall in love and stay in love. It's not, I'm not saying it's easy, but I think that's what's exciting to me. You know what I mean? That's what gets me up in the morning. Will:                       So now it's time for the infamous speed round that you've been hearing. So this is just a list, we've got several quick questions for quick responses here. Nothing too fancy, I promise. Frank:                   All right. Will:                       You ready? Frank:                   Yep. Will:                       Okay, what was your favorite dorm on campus? Frank:                   Wheeler. Will:                       Wheeler, okay, Wheeler's doing well right now up near the field house in the construction. Frank:                   Yes, I was an RA in Wheeler. Will:                       Oh you're an RA in Wheeler, very nice. What floor? Frank:                   One, two, I think, no, that was my first one. It must've been the third floor. Will:                       Third floor, okay, my friends, my really close friends that I live with now, I remember my first year there on the second floor. We were always on the second floor just hanging out, watching football games. Frank:                   Well, freshman year and my room number at Wheeler was one, no sophomore year I was, sophomore year I was in one, two, three. Will:                       That's pretty easy to remember. Frank:                   So that was the first floor, but then my roommate and I got to be RAs. I think it was the third. Will:                       Very nice. Frank:                   But then I dropped out. Will:                       Yeah, yeah and then the whole story began. Frank:                   That's right. Will:                       No, that's good. What's your favorite meal on campus? Frank:                   This is more of a joke or whatever. But you know you have names for meals? Will:                       Of course. Frank:                   Right? Speckled Death. Will:                       Oh gosh. Frank:                   Did you have like stuff like that? Will:                       Nothing, the food here is, I'm a fan. Frank:                   This school was, we ate family style. Will:                       So it's changed, yeah it's changed a lot, Frank:                   They passed out the food and if you were at the wrong end, you were thin. And so they, they, we had names, I can't even remember all the names for them. So I'm from the Midwest, so we're going down to eat and people say, oh we're having swordfish. I'm going (laughs) that's hilarious, swordfish, I love that. Cause I thought it was a joke name for what we were having and it was a first time I ever had swordfish. Oh my God, it was fabulous. Will:                       Did you like it? Frank:                   I loved it. Will:                       There you go. Frank:                   It was great. It was great. Will:                       You got your seafood, that's good. What's your go to cool beans order? Frank:                 When I'm meeting with students or folks up here, I'm just getting a decaf coffee. Will:                       Decaf? Frank:                 Yeah. It's not a, it's not a big order. Will:                       Nothing fancy, iced or hot? Frank:                   Hot. Will:                       Okay. Frank:                   Always hot. Will:                       I'm a iced coffee fan. Frank:                   Oh all right, mine's always hot and always D. Will:                       Interesting, okay. Frank:                   I'm buzzed enough Will. Will:                       I can sense that. Frank:                   (laughs) Will:                       What was your favorite class on campus? Frank:                   I took, I had a few a lot of great ones, but freshman year I took a literature course with Tom Lawlor and that guy blew my mind. He still does today, his wife Pat and he lived back over in Auburn, just over the hill. Tom was, it was just, it blew my mind all that he could take out of the readings that we were reading, all that he could fish out of there. I had never had an experience like that. And again, fed into this idea that, wow what I've been missing the whole world here, man. Where have I been? What have I been doing? Well, probably screwing around, playing football. Will:                       Well did you get any touchdowns I hope? I guess would you say that he was your favorite professor? Frank:                   Lawlor? Will:                       Mm-hmm (affirmative) Frank:                   I'd say probably Dave O'Brien, but there were so many tremendous. When I was a kid, we weren't allowed to read the Bible. The only reason you had a Bible in your house was for show and tell. And in the center of the Bible you could write down the dates of baptisms and first communion and confirmation and all that stuff. Right? But you couldn't read it. So when I came here in 68 and 69 when I started out here, we got to read some stuff, but it still, we couldn't read scripture. We could read the documents of Vatican 2 and those documents said you could read scripture. So when I came back in 87 I had a guy, Rick Murphy, who was teaching new Testament, and we actually got to read the Bible. Will:                       It's pretty cool. Frank:                   It was cool for me. Will:                       Interesting. During your, during your time at Holy Cross, what was your favorite memory? Frank:                   (laughs) I kissed my wife up on the top of the hill. Will:                       Very nice, and the rest is history. Very nice. Last one here, what is the best part about being a Holy Cross alumnus? Frank:                   Well, there's a bunch of great things like this honorary degree. It's been very humbling and tremendous. The kind of recognition I still get around the Chaplain's Office, I get a lot of recognition and appreciated up here. I don't know if you know this, I get a little card so I can go into the heart center and work out. Will:                       Oh, I want one of those, I don't even have one. That's awesome. Frank:                   So I get a little card to go workout. But just honestly, the school has a great reputation in Worcester and so when people hear that you've gone to Holy Cross, that means something in this town. Will:                       Very nice. Thank you so much for coming, it was a great honor having you and to talk with you and learning more about your story, I really appreciate it. Frank:                   Well, thank you Will, I'm glad you put up the time here. Will:                       Of course. Of course. Maura:                 That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be Men and Women for and with Others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola "now go forth and set the world on fire". --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

This Week in Amateur Radio Edition #1059 Release Date: June 15, 2019 Here is a summary of the news trending this week. This weeks edition is anchored by Chris Perrine, KB2FAF, Will Rogers, K5WLR, Don Hulick, K2ATJ, George W2XBS, and Jessica Bowen, KC2VWX. Produced and edited by W2XBS. Running Time: 1:22:44 Download here: http://bit.ly/TWIAR1059 Trending headlines in this weeks bulletin service: 1. Wireless Power Transmission Provokes Discussion in ITU-R Study Group 2. Ham Radio Equipment Donated in Dominica 3. Paul Bourque, N1SFE, Joins ARRL Headquarters Staff as Contest Program Manager 4. FCC Settles with Massachusetts Pirate Broadcaster 5. QRZ.com Institutes Password Security Two Factor Indentification, Seller Verification Programs 6. Make Magazine Going Dark 7. WRC-23 Agenda Items may impact 144 MHz and 1240 MHz bands 8. Rick Murphy, K1MU, to Receive ARRL President’s Award 9. On-the-Air Activity to Mark 50th Anniversary of First Market Reef DXpedition 10. Ham Radio Newscast Producer Hap Holly, KC9RP, and The RAIN Report Retiring 11. WSJT-X Developer Posts Observations on Using FT8 in June VHF Contest 12. Over-the-Horizon Radars Continue to Plague Amateur Bands 13. Proposed WRC-23 Agenda Items Causing WorldwideConcern 14. New York Ham Launching Balloon with SSTV 15. ARRL Files Interim Report with FCC in “Symbol Rate” Proceeding 16. DxPedition News 17. N1MM Logging Software has a new update available Plus these Special Features This Week: * Technology News and Commentary with Leo Laporte, W6TWT - Special Expanded Report * Working Amateur Radio Satellites with Bruce Paige, KK5DO * Foundations of Amateur Radio with Onno Benschop VK6FLAB * Weekly Propagation Forecast from the ARRL * Ancient Amateur Archives Explores Amateur Radios Rich History with Bill Continelli, W2XOY * RAIN Report Special: The Final RAIN Report: A tribute to Hap Holly, KC9RP ----- Website: http://www.twiar.net Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/twiari/ Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/twiar RSS News: http://twiar.net/twiar.rss TuneIn: http://bit.ly/TuneIn-TWIAR Automated: http://twiar.net/TWIARHAM.mp3 (Static file, changed weekly) ----- Visit our website at www.twiar.net for program audio, and daily for the latest amateur radio and technology news. Air This Week in Amateur Radio on your repeater! Built in ident breaks every 10 minutes. This Week in Amateur Radio is heard on the air on nets and repeaters as a bulletin service all across North America, ands all around the world. on amateur radio repeater systems, the low bands, and more. This Week in Amateur Radio is portable too! You can find us among talk radios best on TuneIn.com, or via iTunes and Google Play. We are hosted by various podcast aggregators like Stitcher too. Vist our site for details. You can also stream the program to your favorite digital device by visiting our web site www.twiar.net. This Week in Amateur Radio is produced by Community Video Associates in upstate New York, and is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License. If you would like to volunteer with us as a news anchor or special segment producer please get in touch with us via our Facebook group. Search for us under This Week in Amateur Radio.

Rick Murphy, CEO of Cogent Growth Partners, talks about his experiences related to Mergers and Acquisitions and how they relate to IT Businesses.

Welcome to the Confessions of an IT Business Owner podcast. In this episode, you’ll learn about some experiences related to Mergers and Acquisitions from the perspective of Rick Murphy, CEO of Cogent Growth Partners.

Rick Murphy, CEO of Cogent Growth Partners, talks about his experiences related to Mergers and Acquisitions and how they relate to IT Businesses.

This week we conclude our interview with group owner and entrepreneur Rick Murphy, who shares some immutable laws of selling and a great idea for locking down appointments. Host Jay Mitchell shares the upgrade in studio equipment he recently made…Read more →

 We're back after some delays in getting our new studio set up … and we're back BIG with a pair of industry leaders from whom you'll learn a lot: PAT BRYSON shares one of her favorite sales tips. Pat reminds us,…Read more →

On this week's show (Episode #207) *High Spots Segment where we discuss all the hottest topics in wrestling today. *Shoot and Shout Segment: Joe, Rene and our guest get 60sec to go off on anything that might be ticking them off at the moment! *Wrestle Talk Podcast Game Show Challenge: Our guest this week takes on The Knight Owl in the always fun Game Show Challenge every week a new topic where the best outta three is the winner. *Fantasy Wrestling Segment: Members of the Fantasy Wrestling Worldwide Chapter join us for a few minutes to give us the low down in what's happening in "The Chapter." *Snippets of Truth Segment: Our resident Chaplin Big Daddy P joins us to read your prayer requests and share some truth and positivity. Visit the contacts tab on our website to do so openly or confidentiality. *Featured guests:   Rick Murphy fresh off his visit to the HOF in Iowa at 7:10 Nick Lopez of Pro Wrestling Opinion at 7:30pm Mad Man Pondo of ECW at 8:30pm We go live Thursday's at 8 pm ET and would love to have you be a part of the show! *Call us during the show by dialing (657) 383-1521 *Message us: FB/Twitter/IG - @WrestleTalkCast *Email: WrestleTalkPodcast@gmail.com *For everything WTP 24/7 visit: www.WrestleTalkPodcast.com

Starting over; from a Senior Engineer for 25 locations across the US with a major MSP with responsibility for every deployment and every setup, how Rick grew Technowledge, an IT company, from his  basement to 17 employees  providing business solutions ranging from network security, deployments and management, systems backup and recovery, cloud solutions, voice-over Internet, network solutions, firewalls, as well as connected solutions to the Front Range of Colorado.   The post My podcast website (http://businessleaderspodcast.com) .

From HUK Gear, Drew Herma of MoneyFish TV Show interview, and the boys talk fishing and Fathers Day June 27th 2015

Scott Martin Challenge host, FLW 2015 AOY Scott Martins joins the show for a quick interview and Trevor from Squiddies Flip Reel as Fishing Florida Radio talks fishing and iCast.

Father's Day Special show with stories about fishing with your father, or as a father and some special guests too. June 20th 2015

With interview from DOA Lures Mark Nichols and Red Ed of HomosassaRedfish.com in studio talking SCALLOPS!

With interview from author of 'Bass Fishing, Brown Dogs and Curveballs, Hall of Famer and TV Producer and Host Jerry McKinnis, Red Snapper discusions, Biscayne Bay closure, fishing reports and more. June 6th 2015

BASS Elite and FLW Pro Brent Ehrler, Chevy Florida Insider Fishing Report and Yamaha Pro Staff Rick Murphy, and winner of the CCA Florida Star GMC Truck winner, callers, fishing reports and more on Fishing Florida Radio.

May 16th Fishing Florida Radio Show with BooDreaux, Captain Mike and Steve

If you could fish with anyone who would it be? Callers and the boys answer that question and also have interviews from Marlin Magazine Dave Ferrell and author, Hells Bay Boatworks Pro Staff and tarpon king, Andy Mill.

May 2nd Fishing Florida Radio Show with interview from Hunter Hoffler of In The Loop Fly Fishing Show

May 9th Fishing Florida Radio Show with BooDreaux, Captain Mike and Steve

R. Lee Ermey and more on Fishing Florida Radio April 25th, 2015

R. Lee Ermey, Gunny from Outdoor Channels Gunnytime on Fishing Florida Radio April 25th, 2015

Addictive Fishing Host Blair Wiggins and Star and Shield's Copout Adventures Host Captain Jeff Brown talk fishing and the upcoming seasons of their shows on Fishing Florida Radio April 4th, 2015

All Tarpon Show with Bill Bishop, author of High Rollers and amazing artist in studio with Fishing Florida Radio April 11th, 2015.

From Outdoor Channel's The Reluctant Outdoorsman Derek and Chavy Florida Insider Fishing Report Ricky Murphy on Fishing Florida Radio's March 28th episode.

Fishing Florida Radio March 22nd 2014 with interviews with Chevy Florida Insider Fishing Report Captain Rick Murphy, WFN's Guided with Mark Melnyk and senior bass publications editor Ken Duke.

This week, we'll take a tour of a distillery very few people ever get to visit, Beam's Alberta Distillers facility in Calgary, Alberta. 80% of the distillery's whisky is sold in bulk to clients around the world, which means if you've tried all but a few Canadian whiskies, the chances are pretty good Rick Murphy and his team had something to do with them.  The remaining 20% is bottled under the Alberta Premium and Alberta Springs labels for the Canadian market, along with the Tangle Ridge label available in the US and a few other markets. The distillery is on the edge of the Canadian Rockies, which means high altitude, low humidity, and lots of cold and snow. One of their innovations is a unique "straddle loader" to move barrels of whisky around without the risk of using a forklift in extreme weather. In the news...still no arrests in the Pappy Van Winkle theft, Diageo opens a new Scotch whisky warehousing complex in Fife, and Jim Murray names his whisky of the year for the 2014 Whisky Bible.

Host of Sportsman Adventures, Captain Rick Murphy, joins the crew of Awesome Fishing Radio.  Capt. Rick is always personable, and just like you see him on TV.  Perhaps he is even more fun!  Capt. Keiland Smith and Capt. Blake Smith spend a few great minutes with this friend of the family. Capt Rick Murphy at … … Continue reading →