We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?
Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pulice
Intro: NASA needs a producer, Copernicus, Don Knotts, Barney Fife, Monsters, Quentin Tarantino, Django Unchained, Shaft, Interview: We talk to Lennon Parham about growing up in Georgia, playing quirky characters, getting a taste for theater, soaking up all the non-performance aspects of theatre, improv, Upright Citizens Brigade, Pete Holmes, applying to Juilliard, doing Teach for America in Greenville Mississippi, auditioning for Veep with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Armando Iannucci, callbacks, Playing House, Jack McBrayer, Jason Mantzoukas, Betsy Capes, the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, Jessica St. Clair, Best Friends Forever, the undeniable draw of having fun.
Intro: smush-faced dogs, sleep procrastination, Meyers-Briggs, Eneagram, Amazon, Oujia board conspiracies, the mystery of parenting. Let Me Run This By You: Boz gets rained out of Disney and entered the Land of Forgotten Teslas.Interview: We talk to playwright and professor Kristoffer Diaz about NYU, Gallatin, Tisch, John Leguizamo, growing up Nuyorican, being addicted to theatre, ambition, and the future of American Theatre.
Interview: We talk to star of stage and screen Desmin Borges about The Theatre School, Minneapolis Children's Theatre Company, Peter Brosius, improvising and workshopping new works at Teatro Vista, Dennis Začek Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, phonetic pillows, Arthur Lessac's work, speaking creatively through rhythm instead of words, Ann Wakefield, Ric Murphy, John Leguizamo aka Johnny Legs, winning a preschool talent show televised on Telemundo with his rendition of La Bamba, growing up in a barber shop, losing his dad to cancer at age 15, Elaborate Entrance of Chad Deity by Kristoffer Diaz, The Buddy Holly Story musical with Janey Lauer, Barry Brunetti, Dominic and Eugene, The Room Upstaris, Stephen Belber's Tape, Tokoloshe, stereotyping of Latine actors, Brian Cox, Boleros for the Disenchanted, being #1 on the call sheet.
Intro: Let Me Run This By You: 12 Strange Questions (TM) version 2.0Interview: We talk to television star Nick Reynolds about West Virginia, Marshall University, Penn State, MFAs, waiting for 10 years to star on , Search Party, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, being an only child, and almost offending every single cast member of Law and Order SVU, and being a character actor.
Intro: Boz didn't win Powerball Let Me Run This By You: 10 Strange QuestionsInterview: We talk to Kelley Curran about The Gilded Age, having career faith, Fordham at Lincoln Center, The Acting Company, 4.48 Psychosis, Heather Lind, Michaela McManus, Taylor Schilling, Betty Gilpin, Kate Burton, Lawrence Sacharow, Marian Seldes, Roger Reese, Cherry Jones, Fiona Shaw, Oregon Shakespeare, Shakespeare in the Park, Lady Percy in Henry IV, Davis McCallum, Carrie Coon, playing a villain, Telsey and Co., Angels in America, Downton Abbey, Julian Fellowes, Michael Engler, Tim Kubart, and doing a nude scene for millions.
Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech, getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l
Intro: swiping left on the poor man's John Travolta, wilderness therapy for the 1%, Ashton Kutcher.Let Me Run This By You: the thing that you're most afraid of is probably not what's gonna getcha.Interview: We talk to actor Damian Thompson about immigrating from Jamaica, the University of Evansville, the Florida Theatre Conference, stuttering, PAVAC, North Carolina School of the Arts, asking for what you want, how letters of recommendation aren't always what they seem, gatekeeping, theatre school with no acting classes, Pericles, zoom theatre.
Intro: Emceeing a memorial serviceLet Me Run This By You: Fear and the paranormalInterview: We talk to Tina Parker aka Francesca Liddy about SMU, Blake Hackler, Andre DeShields, Maria Irene Fornes' Mud, Kitchen Dog Theatre, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Robert Altman's Dr. T & the Women, Birdbath play, Perpetual Grace. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez2 (10s):This, and I'm Gina Pulice1 (11s):We went to theater3 (12s):School together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.4 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of3 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):So what does mean, What does it mean to mc a memorial?1 (40s):Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to call it. I I people keep it host. I'm not hosting cuz the family's hosting. So what it means is that I'm trusted, I think to not, Well one, I've done this twice, you know, I've lost both my parents. So I like know the drill about how memorials go, but also I think I'm kind of a safe person in that I will step in if someone goes kaka cuckoo at the memorial and I also have some, you know, able like, presenting skills. Yes. Right. And I'm entrusted to like guide the ship if it, and if it goes off kilter, I will say to somebody, Hey, why don't you have a seat?1 (1m 23s):This is like, we'll have time for this later if you really wanna get crazy or whatever. But that's, and I think it's just sort of steering, steering the grief ship maybe. I don't know. Yeah, look, I don't know. I like that. It's gonna be2 (1m 34s):Interesting, dude, people, Oh, honestly, they should have that for, you know, in other cultures where they have like professional grievers and professional mourners, it, it sounds a little silly, but at the same time it's like, no, this is right. Because no, we don't, we never know how to do it. Unless you've lived in a really communal environment where you, you, you, you know, you attend the rights, the ceremonies or rituals of everybody in your village, then you really don't know until, usually until it's thrust upon you. And then it's like, well, you're supposed to be grieving and then like hosting a memorial service. It's such a weird thing. So this could be another career path for you. You could be a professional, you know, funeral mc, I actually, honestly, I hate, I don't hate it.2 (2m 21s):I love it. Well,1 (2m 22s):And also could be my thank you, my rap name funeral Mc instead of like young mc funeral mc, but no. Yeah, I, I have no, and it's so interesting when it's not my own family, right? Like these are family friends, but they're not, it's not my mother who died. I don't have the attachment to I people doing and saying certain things. I don't feel triggered. Like being, I grew up a lot in this house that I'm sitting in right now, but it's not my, it was not my house. So I don't have any attachment emotionally like appendages to the items in the house where the girls do.1 (3m 2s):So I'm able to be here and, and, and be like, this is, this is, I'm okay here. I don't feel overwhelmed. And I think that is a sign that I'm doing the right thing in terms of helping out in this way if I got here and I was like, Oh my God, it's too much. But I don't feel that. And I also think that like, one of the things that I did with Nancy and Dave over the last couple years is like, they were literally the only adults. Well, I'm an adult, only older adults my parents age who are like, Yes, go to California, you need to get out of here, get away from this. They were the, so I that made me trust them. And then we stayed, we had like weekly phone conversations, just like they would each be on a line.1 (3m 46s):It was hilarious. And we would talk for hours like maybe once every two weeks, a couple hours. And it was really like a parenting experience. So I feel very close to them and I, what I'm learning is that like, even if other people have different relationships with people, you can have your own. So I know that no one's perfect, but these were allowed, like, you're allowed Gina to have your own relationship with your mom and with your even dead people than other people have.2 (4m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Back to the plane for a minute. In these situations, what do the flight attendants do, if anything?1 (4m 28s):Oh, well I always talked to them before because I, so what I say, I always like to, because Dave, who's, who's a hypnotherapist and a psychologist, he said, Listen, you know, he used to be afraid. And he said his thing was talking to the flight attendants before and just saying like, Hey, I have a phobia. I'm a therapist. I'm working through it. Like just to make contact, right. I don't, I didn't say that exactly, but what I said was, Listen, I say, Hi, how are you? We struck up a strike up, a teeny conversation in that moment where I'm going to my seat and I say, Listen, I'm going to Chicago to like mc a memorial for like someone who's like my mom. So if you see me, so if you see me crying like it's normal. And they're like, Oh, thanks for telling me. And they're, they usually don't get freaked out.1 (5m 11s):I'm also not like intense about it. They do nothing. And you know what they, I think and, and she said, Thanks for telling me. I really appreciate it. Because I think they'd rather know what the fuck is going on with someone than thinking someone's about to hijack the goddamn plane.2 (5m 29s):Exactly. I was thinking that exact same thing. I was thinking like, especially right now, all they know is it's heightened emotion or it's not, you know, like they, they, they have no, they would have no way of differentiating, you know, what's, what's safe and what's dangerous. So I can't believe nobody's ever done this before. But we, another project that we could do is like airplane stories. I mean there is such, this is one of the few points of connection that humanity still has people that is who can afford to you fly a plane anywhere. But this thing of like, it sucks and it's dirty and it's growth and people, people's, you know, hygiene comes into question and if they're sitting next to you and it's uncomfortable and it's not the glamorous thing that it used to be even when we were kids.2 (6m 21s):So it's, it's one of those moments unless you have a private plane where you're sort of forced to reckon with like the same thing that everybody else in humanity has to reckon with. But even on a private plane, and I would argue even especially on a private plane, there is the fear of your imminent death. Like the, the, it doesn't matter if you're afraid of flying or not, it crosses your mind.1 (6m 42s):Well, yeah. And I, my whole thing is like, I, I don't know what would happen if we all started talking about that on a plane. So like what would that be like? So, okay, when I was traveling last with home from San Francisco with Miles, I sat next to this woman, Miles was in the middle and the woman on the aisle was this woman. We were both afraid. And we had this idea for a fricking television show, right? Which was two, it's called the Fearful Flyers and then two people on each side and a famous person in the middle seat. And we would interview them as we, we flew to one, take our mind off it, but two really delve into our own fear and did the person of any fear and get to know a celebrity at the same time.1 (7m 27s):Now she never texted me back. So she's clear, clearly she's not that interested. Cause I was like into it. I was like, what if we get, I know, I know. And she's not even in the industry. She's like, so, but I was like, hey fearful flyer friend, I think we should talk about our idea. Crickets radio silence. So whatever. She's moved on. Like she just used me for the, for the Yeah. No entertainment, which is fine,2 (7m 53s):Heightened emotional space. She, she bonded with you, but now she's back to like all of her armor and all of her gear and she doesn't wanna think about flying until she has1 (7m 60s):To. No. Right, right. Exactly. It's not something that she wants to delve into on her free time, you know, So, which I don't blame her. But anyway, so yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I literally ha I sit out the window, I sit by the window and I have to look out the window. And this guy next to me who I met, who's like a vet and who is like, was self-medicating with alcohol and who is a gay vet was really interesting. But he, everyone copes differently. But it was in, at one point I thought, oh, I actually don't wanna be distracted by him because I'm really doing some deep work with myself as I look out the window and also your version of like getting through this experience, I, it does not feel safe to me, which is drinking and like just, I cannot distract myself.1 (8m 52s):People are like, Oh, read a book. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That's like telling someone I don't know who's having a seizure to read a book. Like you, you, it's not gonna work. Right. I look out the window and, and do therapy with myself. That is what I2 (9m 7s):Do. I love it. That's great. I think everybody who is listening to this, who has any kind of fear or intimidation around flying should, should do that. I don't know if you were getting to this, but I thought you were gonna say something about like how, Oh, you said, you said what if we all talked about it now? Every positive communal experience with the exception of theater that I've ever had, I've gone into unwillingly at the beginning and you know, sort of rejecting it and then come out the other side. Like that was amazing. You know, the thing that you experience, the communal thing, the thing of like, we're all in this together, which we are all like so actually parched for, but we, people like me would never really kind of actively sort of approach.2 (9m 48s):It has to be thrust upon me these like healing group experiences, but amen. In fact, they could make a whole airline that is sort of about that. Like this is, you know, this is the emotional express. Like this is where we're gonna talk about our fear of flying. Cuz everybody's crying in airplanes too. Being in the actual airplane does something to you that makes everybody much more vulnerable than there are otherwise.1 (10m 13s):It's so crazy. I agree. It could be emotional express and you could deal with it, but you would know getting on this plane, like people are gonna talk about their feelings and you shouldn't get on it. So the guy on the aisle2 (10m 26s):Yesterday, No,1 (10m 28s):No alcohol. Oh yeah, no alcohol. The guy on the aisle like hated everything about the flight, Right? He was like shaking his head. He was annoyed. But then he had a Harvard sweatshirt on. I was like, oh my god. But he was like middle aged guy, like coating or I don't know what he was doing, but he like hated everything. He shook his head when they told him to like put his bag under the seat. I'm like, listen, you know what's going on here. This is not your first time in an airplane, Why are you shaking your head? But okay. But then he said something that was hilarious and I said, I'm gonna put that in a script. Which, which was, I don't even know what he was responding to. It was probably my seat mate saying something. But he said, Listen, it's not ideal, but nobody asked me.2 (11m 13s):And1 (11m 13s):I, I'm gonna, and I said to him, I said, Listen, I am gonna put that in a script. Like the mother-in-law is meeting her future daughter-in-law and, and says, Listen, she's not ideal, but nobody asked me. And he laughed and then he said, it's true. And I said, Yeah, I know it's true. That's why. And so then he was like, then he was like free to talk about his disgruntledness, which was fine cuz then it was like he was more human. But at, he was hilarious. He was like the, like he's one of those people that like during and it was really turbulent at one point. And I was like, Okay, here we go. It's turbulence part of the deal. It's okay, fine. And he was like, just like angry at the turbulence.2 (11m 57s):I love1 (11m 58s):It. Which I thought was brilliant. Yeah, I'm like, but like, who are you angry at? Just like the turbulence. And he was like, ugh. And like angry at air flow. I don't know if2 (12m 7s):At air current1 (12m 8s):He was like pissed off. I was laughing. I was like, this guy's awesome. He just hates everything. It's, it is not ideal, but nobody asks me.2 (12m 17s):So what's so great about that? And so what's so great about you is like, you enga that's how you always engage people from this perspective of like, yeah, whatever is going on with you that you think is like nobody else wants to hear about, I want to hear about it. Because that's because that's what you spend your time doing. You know, bravely engaging with yourself. They, we need a person like you in all of these sort of like high stress situations that people have to do. Usually at some point in your life you have to get on an airplane. Usually at some point in your life you you have to speak, you know, in front of a group of people. You have to have the funeral. We need these sherpa's, these guides to kind of give us, basically just give us permission to have our own human experience that we have somehow talked ourselves out of having, even though it's completely unavoidable.1 (13m 3s):Yeah. And I also really respect people who now who have to just, I mean I, it's not my way, but like, shut down and they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna, they can do it. They're like, either it's drinking or whatever it is to distract themselves. They're like in it, whether it's the disgruntledness or other people, they like just go to sleep immediately. They like sit down and they're like out. And I don't think it's relaxation. I think they're just like checked. They're like,2 (13m 30s):I have, Oh yeah, no, they're, I cannot be conscious right now. I wonder what makes the difference between people who are afraid of flying and not, I have never once felt afraid of flying, even during turbulence. I've never once had the thought like, this plane is going down. I mean, maybe that changed a little bit when I had kids and I was always the one in the aisle, like holding, I had to hold my babies the entire flight because, because it must be a natural thing to be freaked the fuck out to be on an airplane. Even a baby freaks out to be on an airplane. So there's something to it. But what makes a difference between people who just, I've never had that fear.1 (14m 8s):I I know it is a foreign, it is like it is. I don't know either. And I, I I, there's other people like that have, What was the fear someone was talking about the other day? Oh, I have a friend who like literally cannot have their blood drawn. They have to go under almost. Wow. They almost have to be sedated to have their blood drawn. Me. I I stick out my arm. I don't give a, it's just not my thing. Yeah. I don't have any charge at it at all.2 (14m 37s):Well,1 (14m 38s):You could take my blood right now.2 (14m 40s):I used to have this theory that you grew up afraid of the things that your parents basically were afraid of so that they therefore communicated to be afraid of. But that I now think that that's completely untrue. My daughter is scared to death of spiders. She, she's haunted by this fear that when she goes into the bathroom at night, there's gonna be a spider. If there's the tiniest and we live in the woods, there's sp there's all kinds of insects that make that their way into our house. I have, there's not a spider I've ever encountered that I've been afraid of now. Mice and rats. That's what I'm afraid of. My mom was afraid of snakes. She did not transfer when I was younger.2 (15m 20s):I felt afraid of them too. And then one day I was like, eh, it's fine. Yeah. I don't think I have any coral with these snakes actually. I think it's completely fine. Right. So I, I don't, So it's something inherent in us that identifies an ob I think it's maybe like we've, I for whatever reason, this becomes the object of all of your fears. And it could be a spider, it could be a plane, it could be, you know, clowns. Like it's for a lot, for a lot of people. It's1 (15m 47s):Fun. Oh remember, Okay, Larry Bates, who we went to school with, and he's open, I think about this. Yeah, he is cuz he's, he's talked about it. I, he had a fear of muppets, like an intense Muppet fear. And I was like, Wait, are you, I thought it was a joke. I was like, Wait, Muppets, Like, okay, they're a little weird, but like, but like a phobia of a Muppet. And I was like, what the actual fuck. I couldn't like,2 (16m 14s):I just, that's it's not, dude, my version of that is I was afraid of mariachi bands.1 (16m 22s):Wait, mariachi bands?2 (16m 24s):Yes.1 (16m 25s):Like bands. Yeah.2 (16m 26s):Well, so growing up, growing up in, well, we love Mexican boots, so we were always going out for Mexican food. And back then, I don't know why every time you went to have Mexican food, you know, dinner, there was a mariachi band. Like, I, I, it doesn't, I haven't seen a mariachi band in such a long time, but it used to be that you could not go out for a Mexican restaurant dinner without a mariachi band. And I, it got to a point where they couldn't, first it was like, we can't go to have Mexican food anymore. It was like, we can't go to a restaurant. I just, I didn't want these mariachis and, and it must have just, I think it was the bigness of the hat and the loudness of the music right next to your table when you think about it, it's actually, so it's strange, right?2 (17m 9s):Yeah. That you're sitting at your table, like with your family looking, you know, whether you're gonna order the chalupa or the enchilada. And then it's just like, extremely loud, very good, but extremely loud and, and in huge presence. People sitting, you know, right next to your table.1 (17m 24s):Yeah. I mean it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a business move either. Like what, why it would like, it would like make people, unless you're drunk again, if there's alcohol involved, it changes everything. But you can't really drink as a toddler. So, but I think that like, maybe there's something, I wonder if there's something about that of like all the attention being on you. Like, listen, when there's, like, there are kids I know at restaurants when they, when it's their birthday and they come over to sing that they fucking hate it. It's too much attention on them. And adults too. And I can kinda understand that. It's like too much pressure, right? There's like a2 (17m 59s):Pressure. Well, you just unlocked it for me now I know exactly what it is. You said something about being drunk and I think at that age, I have always equated loud and raucous with drunk. You know, as a kid, I knew when anybody in my family was being loud raus. And, and actually, I'm sorry to say even especially when they were having fun. When I'm in a room, when I'm in a house and everybody's laughing, you know, my, it's like, I I I I just get that fear. I just get that fear sort of rise up. It's different now that I'm older and I've, you know, been in more situations where that hasn't been scary to me. But that's what it was with the mariachis, The loud and the festive and the music meant like, somebody's going to say something that they really regret.2 (18m 44s):Somebody's gonna get a dui, somebody's going to jail.1 (18m 50s):Hey, let me run this by you.2 (18m 58s):So imperfectly into the thing I wanted to run by you today, given that it is Halloween season and this episode will air the day after Halloween. But so I, you know, Well, actually no. Okay, I'll, I'll start with this. I am one of those people that desperately seeks paranormal experiences. And I'm almost always disappointed when I'm, when I'm actively seeking it, going to a psychic, going to a medium, going to, it's, oh, you know, it's, I'm never the one in the crowd where the medium goes. Like, I've got a message for you.2 (19m 40s):And I've, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, my family's like just not that into me. They don't wanna, you know, the people have passed over, like, don't wanna, don't wanna come talk to me, don't wanna give me messages. But I I, if you're out there, if you're listening, ancestors drop a line. I'd love to know what the deal is. I'd love to know what messages you might have from me because I actually really do believe that that can happen. Maybe it just needs to happen with people who are on a higher spiritual plane than any of,1 (20m 9s):I mean, I don't, I don't believe that for a sec. I mean, it could be true. What do I know? But I think, look, I do believe right, that most shit happens when you're not expecting it paranormal or not. Like all this shit that has happened to me, most of it has been not at all when I would've planned or thought or, and so I have one ghost story. I don't know if you know, it happened in Great Barrington, Do you know this story?2 (20m 42s):Yes. But tell it again. It's a great story.1 (20m 44s):Okay. Okay. I could care. I was like 21. All I wanted was to be skinny and have boys like me. I didn't give a fuck about ghosts, I didn't care about anything. So I'm in Great Barrington in edits, Wharton's the old Lady author's house, and I'm the stage manager. And this guy I was in love with was in this play that took place. The monkeys paw took place in the, they were doing an adaptation of the Monkeys Paw in Edith Wharton's parlor on Halloween. It was like the creepiest thing, but I didn't give a fuck because I was in love with the guy who was seriously haunted. Yes, yes, yes. Super, super Berkshire's, whatever. I didn't care.1 (21m 24s):I was like, ah, I wanna, I want this guy to like me. I don't give a fuck about any of that. Okay. So I, my job was to literally move the furniture after the rehearsal to the storage room. Okay. In this big mansion. Okay, fine. They're getting notes and I'm just probably daydreaming about how I can make this guy like me. And I'm moving furniture and I go into this little storage room and of course people talk about the house is so big and haunted, I could care less. So I'm in there and down the road from the house is a barn where they're doing the play Ethan from and Okay, Ethan from, there's like a sledding accident in the play. So he's on a sled and they start screaming and the guy is hurt.1 (22m 4s):So another show was going on at the, in the barn. And I'm like, ah, okay. So I'm moving the furniture and I hear this sled yelling and okay, I'm like, Oh, should they, I wish they would shut up. I was like, this is loud yelling. So then I, we finish our rehearsal and we're walking up back, me and the cute guy and some other people, and all I'm thinking about is how can I get this guy like me? And like, literally, and also now I see pictures of him and I'm like, Dear God. Anyway, so, so, oh my God, why didn't someone, I mean, you should, someone should have just slapped me like 10 times and been like, No. But anyway, but that's what I was, I was all about him. I had a thing for Canadians. Anyway, so, so like, I just loved the guys that was like international to me, Canadians.1 (22m 48s):Anyway, okay. So it was like all the Canadians. So we're walking in the dark to our cars and, and I say, and we walk by the barn and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys, they were so loud tonight when I was moving the furniture. Like they should shut up. Like, I, I wonder how it's gonna be when we're doing the Monkeys Past show. We're gonna hear Ethan from, and like every, there's like four of us. Everyone stopped and I'm like, What, what's wrong with you? Two or three or whatever. And they were like, like turned white. I've never seen this happen in human beings. And I was like, What is happening? I thought I said something wrong or like, of course, like I was bad. And I'm like, What?1 (23m 28s):And they're like, Oh God. And I was like, What? What are you punk me? What's happening? And they're like, There was no show tonight.2 (23m 37s):Ooh. Even though I knew that was coming the story, it still gave me a chill. Today on the podcast we are talking to Tina Parker. Yes. Tina Parker, the one and only Francesca Litty from the Smash Hit series, critically acclaimed and me acclaimed Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad Tina's a delight. She's a director, she directs for theater. She's got a theater company in Dallas, Texas called Kitchen Dog. And she was so much fun to talk to and I just know you are going to love our conversation with Tina Parker.2 (24m 33s):Oh, nice. Okay. Well I wanna get all into Kitchen Dog, but I've gotta start first by saying congratulations Tina Parker. You survived theater school5 (24m 44s):So long ago. My Lord, so2 (24m 46s):Long ago. Yeah. I I have no doubt that, you know, the ripple we, we've learned, it doesn't matter how long ago you graduated, the, the feeling of survival persists and the ripple effects of it persists.5 (24m 59s):Absolutely.1 (25m 1s):When I had longer hair, people used to always ask if I played Bob Oden Kirk's assistant on better. And I would say no. But I adore the human that plays her. It's brilliant performance and I love it. So2 (25m 17s):There you go. It really is. And I, and I wanna talk a lot about Better Call Saul, but you went to smu, which I did. You interviewed the current dean, I think he's the dean. Blake Hackler.5 (25m 30s):Yeah. Chair of Acting I think.2 (25m 31s):Chair of Acting. Okay, fantastic. I'm I'm assuming you guys weren't there. No, you never crossed5 (25m 36s):Path. But we've actually, he and I have crossed paths a bit professionally nowadays. Yes. Because we've, we, Kitchen Dog has done a few of his new play readings cuz he's a playwright also. So he's, he had at least two or three plays read in our New Works festival and he's always helped me out when I need recommendations for young people to come in and read. Cause you know, we're all old at Kitchen Dog.2 (25m 56s):Fantastic. Shout out to Blake. So SMU is a fantastic school. Did you always wanna go there? Did you apply to a bunch of different places? How did you pick smu?5 (26m 9s):Well, it's kind of a ridiculous story. I, my senior year of high school, you know, of course like a lot of people went to theater school. You're all like, I'm the superstar. My high school. Like, all right, I get all the leads. I'm Auntie Mame and Mame. You know what? Ridiculous.1 (26m 25s):I just have to say I was Agnes Gooch and I, I was the Gooch. Were you5 (26m 30s):Agnes? I was ma I was anti Mame in the stage play version. Oh yes.1 (26m 35s):I wa yeah, yeah, me too. I was Agnes Gooch. I wanted to be anti Mame, but so anyway, always a goo, always a Gooch. Never a Mame over here. But anyway, So tell us, So you were the start.5 (26m 46s):Yeah, you know, like everybody who went to theater school, everybody was the start at their high school. But I, my dad unfortunately had a stroke when I was a, and he was only, my parents are super young and so he was 40, I don't know. So it was very unusual. It happened like at the beginning of my senior year. And so my family was, it was all kind of chaotic. My senior year was very chaotic and I was also like the president of the drama club and, and we, you know, and all the people, you know, all the competitions every weekend. And so it was just a, there was a lot going on and my family stuff got into disarray because my dad ended up losing his job because he was sick for so long. And, and it was so I screwed up.5 (27m 28s):Like I missed a lot of applications. I never, I didn't really, it was one of those where it just kind of snuck up on me and I didn't really know the places I wanted to go. I had missed like certain deadlines because of the fall. And so I, SME was still one of the ones that was open. And so I did, was able to schedule an audition cuz you had to get into the school, but also, you know, get into the theater program. Like you could get into the school, not get into the theater program, you know, it is what it is. Luckily I still had time to do the audition, so I did that and then my grandmother literally walked my application through the admin, through the academic part because something I had missed, I think.5 (28m 13s):And my grandmother is very like, I don't know, it's hard to say no to my grandmother. So she went and they took this great care of her and she just kind of walked through and she's like, told the whole situation. And I mean, I had good grades. Like it wasn't, you know, like I did get in, I got scholarships and all this shit. Like I had, I had good grades, so it wasn't like I was like, my grandmother did it, you know, But she did walk it through. She's a thousand percent charmer. And then the, as far as the audition goes, I was an hour late because I got lost. And then there's this weird horseshoe at SMU cuz you know, go ponies or whatever bullshit that is, there was no parking.5 (28m 55s):And so I was like, got, was super late and I was just like, just like so sweaty and like, you know, you, everything's high drama when you're in high school, right? So you're like, this is is my last chance to be a doctor. I'm gonna have to work at the, you know, fucking shoe store that I was working at or whatever. It was forever. And so1 (29m 15s):I would, I, after I became an actor, I was still working at the cheese store after I went to, But the other thing I wanna say is like, also your grandma sounds like charming, but also like, she might be in the mob.5 (29m 25s):Well, yeah, she's totally like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. She's, she's she, she can get it done. She's the wife of a Methodist minister too. So she, she, she knows how she can, she can read a person and figure out like, this is what you need, you know, And she's just sweet, like, you know, she's charmer. But I ran into someone else's audition, like that's what I, I ran and they then the school, the school is all built, the school is all built crazy. So if you don't know the school, you get lost. And I was like, went and I going in the wrong places and I was an hour late and I was like, and like, I literally like, this is it not open the door. And they're like, somebody's in there like, like doing the thing. And I'm like, oh my god. And they're like, you know, and I was like that.5 (30m 7s):And I was just like, Oh God. And so I go and sit in the room and I just remember them coming in. I was like, I'm really sorry, you know, like the kid was like, whoever, I don't think they got in. And they, I just remember them looking at me like, you know, and they left and I was like, great, this is awesome. And then I go into my audition, which I chose the worst pieces, like the worst of course. Like, I think it was like, I can't even remember the name of the playwright, but it's like a really, really dramatic monologue from like bird bath, you know, My head is not a hammer, like something ridiculous. And then I also chose to sing, which I'm not the greatest. I mean, I can sing, I can sing karaoke, but not like seeing like I'm a musical theater actor. I, I, that's not me.5 (30m 47s):I think I chose seeing like the something that Nights on Broadway or some bullshit, like, you know, the Neon Lights On? No, No. On Broadway. Like ridiculous. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, luckily, luckily I did get in the interview part and then they're like, turn your, they're like, turn your monologue into standup comedy.2 (31m 6s):Oh wow. I never heard of that in audition. What a cool tactic.5 (31m 10s):Well, and it was also, I think they could tell that I was so freaked out and so nervous, but then that like, the interview portion went great. And so they're like, you know, then they were like, Hey, try like play around with this. And then like, the bad song that I had selected that I had practiced with my cousin who could play guitar or something, they're like, do some dance moves with it. So I was just like, I don't dance, but I started doing these ridiculous things and they're like, Yeah, good. They laughed and you know, I, I think it also let me relax. They're2 (31m 38s):Like, you are crazy enough to be in theater school. Wait, you guys, should we have a documentary series about people who are auditioning for theater school? Because honestly like the stakes are so high for so many people. I bet there's 1 billion stories. Yeah, I mean, some of which we've heard on, on, on the podcast, right? Boz? Yeah,1 (31m 58s):I think we do. I think we do. And all the, I just remembered that in my monologue was from the play about the woman who traps the rapist in her house and puts him in a fireplace.5 (32m 10s):Oh, the burning bed or whatever. Not the burning bed, but the, Yeah,1 (32m 14s):Yeah. And it's, it's, it's William Masterson.5 (32m 17s):Yes,1 (32m 18s):Yes, yes. And, and she has a fire poker and she's poking the rapist and I am 16 at the time. Oh, and I what? And a virgin, not that that really matters, but like the whole thing is not good. And why, why did I do that? But yet I got, But5 (32m 35s):That's what this piece was the same thing. It was so dark. And so like, this person is mentally ill and she's like, I get, there's not a hammer.1 (32m 41s):Don't hit me bear.5 (32m 42s):And you're just like, What?1 (32m 44s):I'm like it would've been, I mean I know this is terrible to say, but what if they told me to turn that into standup? Like that would be dark, dark, dark humor. But any, Okay, so you, you clearly like, what I love is that smu like knew how to take a teenagers anxiety and like shift it and so good on them, those auditioners like good on them. So you did that, you did you walk out of there feeling like, okay, like it started off really wonky, like me being late, but like I have a chance. Or did they tell you, when did they tell you5 (33m 15s):I felt good like that? When I, after I left I was like, okay, you know, like I wasn't sure like, cuz I was like, it was weird that they told me to change it to comedy, but I think it was good, you know, And like I felt like the interview part went good and they were, at the time, my class, this was the first year that they, they eliminated the cuts program. So what happened is they instead they had the BFA acting track and then they had, well what was proposed anyways, they changed our, what our degree was, but it was supposed to be ba in theater studies. And so if you were interested in directing, you know, playwriting, whatever, stage management, tech, whatever, and then acting you could also have, so you kind of chose focuses, but that was it.5 (34m 2s):And it had more of a little more academic focus. And so cuz before me, the classes, everybody went in as an actor. You did first two years and then they kind of just cut you basically. And were like, you're in this free fall of like a program that wasn't really planned.1 (34m 18s):Yeah. I mean like, that's how our school was too. And like half the people didn't end up graduating and it was a racket and now they don't do it anymore. But that5 (34m 27s):Was a huge, yeah, they stopped my year.1 (34m 30s):Okay. So, so was it that the people that maybe weren't get getting into the acting program went to theater studies? Is that how it was proposed?5 (34m 37s):I think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were also trying to figure out a way, or they were try some people left. I think they were also trying to keep their numbers up. And I think they also had people who were like, Hey we're, I'm an actor but I'm also a director. Why can't you make, get me some classes here? You know, like, I wanna have the class. If you're gonna cut me, that's fine. But like, I'm interested in these things too. Can there be a program? And so they kind of were building that program, like they had it out there, you know, and that when they took our class, we had very set paths of like, and we had the same two years together as a group. So freshman and sophomore year. And then we split into our kind of disciplines and they kind of still, like when I was, when we were juniors, kind of like, here's some things and we're like, okay, but our class was kind of a hard ass and we're like, where's our, where's our, where's this class?5 (35m 24s):Where's that? So we were always in the office saying, no, this, this like afterthought of a class, this should then fly and you know, I'm gonna direct a main stage or I wanna direct a studio. And they're like, Oh. And they're like, No, this is how it's gonna work or whatever. So like, yeah, me and Tim and Tim, who actually is one of my coworkers, a kitchen dog and then a couple other folks were pr I think we turned the, the chair at the Times hair white because we would go in there and be like, No, this isn't gonna work.2 (35m 53s):You just, you just made me realize that our, this, all the schools who had cut programs who didn't have another track to go into after were missing out on such a revenue stream. Right? Like our, at our school. Yeah. All the people who got cut like went to this other college and I'm thinking, what, what, When was the meeting where somebody goes, Oh my god, you guys, we should just have something here for them to do instead of sending them to another school. That's hilarious. Well,5 (36m 17s):And I think too, they find like, you know, like that there's kids that truly have talent for, you know, like a playwright or director, but then they're also really good actors. Which I think, you know, I think it's really good for people who are like, I am primarily like, I'm a mix Tim I would say who my coworker is is primarily a director, but, but it's great for both of us to go through acting, you know, like that's been, that's, but1 (36m 38s):I'm noticing is there's no, like our school had no foresight into anything, so it was like they didn't, So that's a problem in a, in a university.5 (36m 49s):Yeah. It, here's problem. Right.1 (36m 50s):So okay, so at your school, what was your experience like on stage the star? Were you And then, Oh, okay. And then, and then my other follow up question is, man, the follow up question is you're launching into the professional world. What did your school do or not do to prepare you? And what was your departure like into like, okay, now you're 22, live your life.5 (37m 11s):Bye. I would say for, I was kind of a mix. Like I had a lot of opportunities while I was there and some self created as far as directing opportunities. And we had an interesting system of like, there was a studio theater and we were able to have, we had this studio system, which a lot of non-majors would come and see plays because they were required, blah, blah blah. But so we got to direct a lot, you know, And, and Tim really fought and he got directed main stage and I was, I was, my senior year I was a lead in a play, you know, like just all sorts of things. Like I had a lot of great opportunities at smu. I think I had some also, I had some good teachers and directors while I was there.5 (37m 53s):So when I was a junior, you know, they had Andre De Shields in to, to as a guest artist, which really stirred the pot because he was not about like, let's talk about your objectives, let's talk, let's really do some table work. Like, he was like, Why aren't you funny? I don't get that shit. Like, go, go out. Why aren't you funny like this? Or come up with some, some dancing or whatever, you know. He was awesome. Like, I loved it. Like cuz we were doing funny thing happen on the way to the forum. I was one of the, you know, concubines or whatever the dance, I was Tinton Nebula, the bell, the supposed to be a, like a bell ringer, you know, like sexy dancer. And he said, I reminded him of some lady he lived with in Amsterdam. So instead I was a clogger and had bells and had giant hair that went out to here.5 (38m 37s):And yeah. And so he was like, he was great. Like, and but it really gave you the experience, it makes a lot of people crazy because he was like not interested in their process. What he was interested in was like results and like hitting your marks and like, you know, like he had sent me away and he was like, come up with 16 beats to that end I'm gonna see something funny. And so I came back in and did it and he was like, yes. You know, like it was, it was awesome. Like he would, he would really was a real collaborator.2 (39m 3s):That's fantastic. And, and actually I'm so glad you told that story because, and I, I won't, I wanted you to get back to launching and everything, but the thing about the Andre Des Shield story that you just told, I can see why you like that because that seems like you a person who has the training and the gravitas and whatever to like take their craft very seriously, but at the end of the day, you're there to entertain and get the job done, right? Like you don't, you're not so precious about your own self. Yeah. Which is really interesting.5 (39m 30s):No, and I mean it was, it was so important I think just because, you know, like everywhere you, everywhere you go like, you know, you don't always work at the same place and everybody's process and everybody's way of rehearsal or whatever's wildly, wildly different. And so I thought it was great because you know, you're not going to go always walk into some place where they're gonna coddle you or, or, or take the time or whatever, you know, like it's different.1 (39m 56s):The other thing is that like we, what I just hit me is that we've interviewed a ton of people and I'm trying to like think about like what does a conservatory do wrong is I think they forget that it's about entertainment. Like there becomes such a focus on process and inner work. What about the fucking entertainment value of like entertaining the audience? Like that goes out the window, which is why the shit is not funny most of the time. Cause it's like so serious, you're like, no, this is a fucking farse. Like make people laugh. Yeah. And it's like, I love that, that you're, you remind me of like an entertainer and I, I feel like I needed entertainment Conservatory.5 (40m 35s):Not, well I would say that, I mean I still use a lot of the training that I used at SMU like, like at Kitchen Dog. I mean this was founded by SMU grads. So you know, a lot of the doing table work and talking about what you want and all that kinda stuff like that is definitely part of what we do. But what was cool about Andre and I love and Des Shields with all my heart like was that you found a way to make your process work in his framework and, and he got results. Like the, our show was funny as hell, like in the singing was great, the dancing was great and it looked great cuz the Eckhart's did the costumes and all the sets and it felt like we were in a professional show.5 (41m 15s):Like it was, it was exciting and fun to do. So I thought it was a great way to kind of get ready for what it was gonna be like. Cuz I remember auditioning for the show and he was like, Where's your headshot? And we're like, nobody told us. And he's like, This is an audition, why don't you have, I don't understand why you don't have a headshot. And you're just, just like, oh God. Like, and it was embarrassing, you know? And then he was like, All right, I wanna do the, he's doing some improvy things in that in the thing and people couldn't get like, people were like, and he is like, just jump in man. And he was like fantastic. And you know, you get a call back and you're like, okay, I see how this works. So that was great. And we also had a lady named Eve Roberts, same thing. She was pretty brutal too in that, you know, if you weren't ready to go, she wasn't gonna baby you.5 (42m 1s):So she would just basically like you're oh, so you don't know your lines. Sit the fuck down, Sit down, who's ready to work? Cuz it was an audition class and she was a film actor with a lot of experience and it was auditions for both film and and stage. But she, if you weren't ready, but if you were ready, she would work you out. Like you would get a great workout, you'd leave with a great monologue. And so I was like, always be prepared for that, you know, cuz she will, she will, she will get you if you're not,2 (42m 27s):Honestly it really sounds like SMU did a much better job than most, most of what we hear about in terms of like getting real working actors and, and it's a tough thing. I I, you know, I don't really blame any school that doesn't, It's a tough thing if it's a working actor, then they're working, they don't have time to like commit to the, the, the school teaching schedule. But at the same time, like if you don't have any of that, then you are really, you're experiencing all that on the job. Which, you know, which is fine too. But it sounds like SMU did a better job of preparing for you, preparing you for a career.5 (42m 57s):I would say somewhat. Yeah. I mean there are things that I, you know, as, as I entered life because I was of the mind when I, when I graduated, I was really torn about whether or not to go to grad school or not. And I really didn't know cuz I really, I, and I still to this day have a split focus. Like I act and direct both in the, you know, in the theater. Like I do both. So I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go and you really had to decide to go to grad school. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna take a year off is what I decided. And I waited tables, lived life, you know, whatever, didn't even really do any theater or stuff.5 (43m 39s):But I tended to like work back at smu. So like they would have me come back and like I would sub in and cover like Del Moffitt who was the man who was the auditioner who auditioned me originally and his improv class. Like I'd come in and do cover him for a month if he went on sabbatical, you know, stuff like that. Or like, and I directed a couple main stages there. That was it. So I just decided end up, I started working more in Dallas and ended up just staying in Dallas. Dallas was not what I plan where I planned to stay. Like I kept in my mind, you know, thinking like I'm gonna move to Chicago. Like that was my dream was living in Chicago and because I guess I'm a tourist and stubborn and lazy, I don't know, sometimes you just start working and you're like, nah, just stay here.5 (44m 26s):I'm working and I can kind of do what I want. And then I got an agent and I was like, oh there's this part of the, you know, like I think in 95 or whatever, you know, cause I graduated in 91, so you just start working and then it's like, why do I want to go and start over? And it was just kind of a hard thing to do. Do I have regrets sometime about not doing Absolutely. Like sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh man. But as far as just preparing, I think it's just hard to get prepared. Cuz I think, like, I wish I left with like, and they're doing this now, which is great, but like left with more of like what's, you know, good, what's a good headshot? What's what, what, you know, how do you walking into a room, how do you handle it?5 (45m 7s):You know, like there's certain things that I feel like they could train and give you a little bit more experience, life experience in it. But I think they have some new, I know they have, I know they have film acting now, a little bit of film acting stuff there, which is always good just cuz that's how a lot of people make money.2 (45m 26s):I, I am, I'm happy to say because we've had, we've had this conversation so many times with people about the way that schools didn't prepare you. Somebody's been getting the message about this. My son is in high school and he goes to this like auxiliary performing arts program. It's like half day his regular high school and half day this and he does a seminar once a week on the business of music. And you know, what, what kind of jobs you're gonna have to do to keep, you know, to pay the rent while you're waiting between gigs, like is very brass tack. So, so the message has gotten through, thankfully.5 (45m 58s):Yeah, the business is important, man. That's how you survive. I mean, let's be real. I mean like that's, and it's not easy. Like if you're, like, if you're going to, I mean there's, sure there's two or three unicorns every so often, but for the most part you're gonna have to wait tables or cobble together bunch of odd jobs or cobble you know, like all these little, like, I'm a, I'm gonna do the Asop Fs in the, in the elementary schools for three weeks or whatever, you know, like, and how do you make rent? You know, like that's, it's not glamorous for sure.2 (46m 27s):So what was the journey from graduating to founding Kitchen Dog with your classmates?5 (46m 33s):I actually am not a founder. So Kitchen Dog was founded by five SMU MFA students who were in the MFA program when I was an undergrad. So I, so I ate that old, thank God, but they founded it in 90, did their first show in 91, which I saw it was above a, it was above a pawn shop in deep with no air conditioner in May. It was very hot and fantastic, you know, Maria Ford has his mud, it was great. And so I did my first show with them in 93. So a few years after I graduated, which Tim, my classmate directed, he had come back, he was in Minnesota at the time and then I've just worked with Kitchen Dog ever since.5 (47m 15s):So I became a company member in 96, started working for the company as like an admin producer type person in 99 and then became co-artistic director when the founding ad left in 2005. So I've been here forever. I do not have children. I say that Kitchen dog is my grown mean child. You're1 (47m 36s):Grown mean, did you say mean?5 (47m 38s):Yeah, I did say mean sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it's very, you know, temperamental.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, that's fine. That's, I mean, yeah, it's probably still better than kids, I'm just saying. Anyway. I mean, I don't have any, so, but okay, so what do you, this is what I always wanna ask people who have longstanding careers in theater and especially when they are co-artistic director or artistic director, why do you do it and why do you love it?5 (48m 6s):That's a really good question. I mean, it varies from time to time. I mean, I think that I, you know, Kitchen Dog has one of its tenants has always been about asking, you know, we do, we do, I hate the word edgy, but we do edgier plays, we do plays that are very much talking about the world around us. Challenging, you know, and we're in Texas, it's, you know, sort of purple state now, kind of exciting purple parts. At least Dallas is hopefully this election goes that way. So, you know, it's, we, I feel like our place in the Dallas Zeki is important because, you know, we're not doing, there are a lot of people that do traditional plays and do them well, you know, like straight ahead, you know, musicals or you know, the odd couple or whatever.5 (48m 53s):Notice this gesture, the odd couple and doing great. But we do new, we do newer plays. We're a founding member of the National New Play Network. And so that's kind of kept it relevant and kept it exciting. The work exciting to me. I love working with new plays and new ideas and we have a company of artists, some of which went to smu and I, I think I've stayed here this long because, you know, I feel like I can, I, I do, I am able to do the kind of work I wanna do. I'm able to choose the plays I wanna be in or direct and I feel like they're important for my community. And when it becomes that, it's not that then I need to leave or step downs is my feeling.5 (49m 37s):I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. I dunno.2 (49m 40s):Yeah. So many people say that, that they, that they, they keep their allegiances to theater companies because it's, it's often the work that they really, you know, f feel moves them is very, you know, is very inspiring. But then you also got the opportunity to do a very good part in something that was commercial, which is breaking bad. So could you tell us anything about your, how you were born into that project?5 (50m 8s):Sure, sure. The, I, you know, I got an agent, did you know, I had no experience, no resume. So you did the couple of walk on, you know, like, I'm in the back of a bank commercial, fantastic. Or whatever, $50. I love it. Did that and Lucked into Robert Altman. Came to town and did a very terrible movie called Dr. T and the Women. But it was a fantastic experience and I was one of the nurses and I was on set every day pretty much. So he's told me, he told us, he's like, I'll make you a lot of money. You're not gonna be seen a lot. You'll be here every day. And we got out by five and I was able to do plays at night. Like it was, it was Chef's kiss the best, like you just kind of learned from the master.5 (50m 52s):Like he is a, he truly was a master god rest his soul. Anyway, so I started auditioning more, did some walkers cuz everybody does did Walker back in the time Walker, Texas Ranger. It's like1 (51m 2s):The er we'd all did the ER and the early ion in Chicago. That was my so walker, same thing. I love a good walker by the way, Texas Ranger.5 (51m 13s):So ridiculous. Yeah, I think one of my lines in one of the episodes I was in was like, you won't put this on your lighty friends tabs. Like it was so country. Anyway, it terrible. But so with the breaking bad thing, I, I read the sides. It actually was the, the person who was casting locals or whatever, not locals cuz it was shooting in New Mexico, but it was a woman in Tony Cobb Brock who was casting in Dallas. And so we got the sides, I got the call to come in and audition for it. I read it and I was like, you know, and this is the story I've told a lot, but it's the truth, which is I read it and I was like, It's gonna be a blonde, big boobs woman. Like that's what I thought when I read it, I was like, it's gonna be this.5 (51m 54s):That's what it's gonna be. Cuz there were a lot of jokes about boobs and you're killing me with that booty. Like there was a lot more to that scene. My first scene there was a lot more. So I was like, whatever. I was like, it's not, I'm, you know, I'm a plus size lady, I have brown hair, I have a, you know, deep voice. Like, oh well. So I was like, why do I feel good in, So I just wore, I remember I wore this Betsy Johnson dress that, cause I was kind of into Rocky Billy Swing at the time. This Betsy Johnson little dress with apples was real sexy and this little shrug and had my hair kind of fancy. And I was like, I'm wearing this. I don't give a shit. So I, I was like, I feel good in this, Who cares? So I walked in and there were a bunch of ladies that were blonde and had professional lady outfits on and I was like, Oh shit, I should have dressed like a secretary.5 (52m 38s):Why did I dress like this? Oh damn. And I was like, Okay, well whatever. It's, you're not, you're not gonna book this so who cares? Went in, I had a great audition, made Tony laugh and you know, it was what it was. And so I went away and I didn't hear anything for a while. So I was like, oh, I didn't book that. Oh well. And I was sitting in an audition for some commercial and I never booked commercials. I just don't, cuz I look one way and then my voice comes out and they're like, Oh, you can't play the young mom because you seem like Jeanine Garofalo or something. So your bite and smile is scary, ma'am. So I was waiting in the, waiting in the waiting room and my agent calls, or I got paged or, you know, cause it was that so long ago.5 (53m 23s):And she was like, Can you be on a plane in three hours? And luckily I wasn't doing a play at the time. And I said, Yeah, I can. And she's like, Well you booked it. You, you should go and so you should go home and pack and go to Southwests. And that was the story. And so I get there and you know, whatever found out that, you know, it's Bob and Kirk and start losing my mind and all this stuff. But what's crazy is, it's a crazy story. And then on when in season four finale, breaking bad spoiler alert, if you haven't watched it, but you're,2 (53m 52s):You're late if you haven't watched it. Like5 (53m 54s):It's, that's2 (53m 55s):On you.5 (53m 56s):Please watch it cuz I need, Mama needs to keep getting residuals. Cause she's, you know, not Yeah. But that final episode where I have a great scene with Brian Cranston. There's a, there was a podcast, Insider podcast, which I wasn't aware of, but they talked to Vince about, you know, Oh, who's she and how did you cast her? You know, cause this was my first like, actual scene, you know, like, boy, I don't, I have more than two lines. And he tells the story of like, and this, I just love this story, which is like, basically he had seen a lot of people that he didn't think was right. He wanted something. They kept showing him the same type and he was like, no, I I it needs to be something different. He's a different kind of guy. I wanted somebody who'd challenge him, you know, different looking. And the casting woman who had Kira, I can't remember her last name, but she had, you know, I'd auditioned for her a few times, been put on tape.5 (54m 43s):I don't know that it necessarily booked anything. She's like, Well there is this one girl, I think she's great. She's probably not right. I physically, she's prob I don't think she's right, but do you wanna see? And so he showed her and he was like, That's exactly what I want. And then I booked it. And so it's crazy. So you just never know. I mean I think that's the, I think that's the walkaway.1 (55m 2s):Okay. This is the,5 (55m 3s):This1 (55m 4s):Is the craziest thing. This is crazy. So I booked a show in New Mexico called Perpetual Grace. Kira cast it and Kira showed me to Steve Conrad, who's the showrunner in James Whitaker who was directing the episode. I looked nothing like the other people. My agent Casey called me and said, Can you get on a plane in three hours? You5 (55m 29s):Gonna1 (55m 29s):New Mexico? Same casting director, St. Kira,2 (55m 34s):The Kira, all these people, Kira,1 (55m 38s):Kira talk5 (55m 39s):Me. Well, and it's like that thing, you know, like you, you know, I think that's always the big takeaway, right? Is, is, and you know, and I, I think I read this not to feel like I'm fucking namedropping I'm not. But like, I read this I think in Brian's book too. But like, the thing is, is like all you can do is just like, just, they're calling you in for a reason. So you just have to say like, what is it in me? What's unique about me? That's this role? And lean into it and go for it in that regard because that's all you got. Like as soon as you start and I find myself doing this, I have to keep reminding myself, you know, to do this. Which is I'll read something like, oh it's this and try to play to what I think it is. Versus like, no, what is it in me?5 (56m 19s):That's this. And that's the thing I book when I do that, when I try to do the other other thing, you know? Totally. And start getting your own head.2 (56m 28s):The time5 (56m 28s):On here, God,2 (56m 30s):By the way, regarding name dropping, I never understand why anybody gets upset about that. I, it's like, well they're people that, you know, the people that you work with, they're people in your life. I mean, you're just saying their name. It's, it's not like you're cloud chasing. But anyway, that, that's insight. Girl. Walk me back to this day where you take three hours to get on the airplane. I wanna know how fast did you have to rush home to pack? What did you do? Did you have enough stuff? What was it like when you were on the airplane? Did you order a drink because you felt so fancy? Tell us everything.5 (56m 57s):Well, all I know is I had a bag and I got, I ran home, I had a roommate at the time, thank God. And I just said, Can you feed my cat? Cause I, I had a cat at the time. I was like, Please feed Loretta. And so I got this bag and just threw, it was really like, just stuff thrown in and I was like, do I need to bring the dress and shoes that I wore that, So I brought the whole outfit cuz I was like, cuz the jobs, some of the jobs I'd been on, I had to bring my own shit or whatever, you know, you have to bring your whole wardrobe and be like, Oh you want none of this? Great, I'll put it all back in my car. So I just threw that in there and then I just threw some random, I don't even know what I packed and, you know, ran to the airport, got on the plane, I think I did have a jack and coat cuz I was just like, I'm so freaked out in the plane.5 (57m 43s):Of course you know, you're going to New Mexico, so you're going over those mountains and you're just like, okay, I'm gonna die also great, but I don't wanna die. I just booked a big job or whatever. And then I remember the landing and getting in the van thing and they took me straight to the hotel and I, I remember opening cuz they, back then they, you know, you would get like your sides in an envelope like that in the, in the later years. That shit never, you never got printed stuff ever because people would steal it and whatever else. So I remember pulling it out and seeing Bob's name and freaking, oh, cause I was a huge Mr.5 (58m 23s):Show fan and I was just like, oh my god, oh my god. And I just remember calling my fr I have a friend Aaron Ginsburg, who's kind of an LA Hollywood dude or whatever. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god. And he was like, Thanks for this spoiler. And I was like, Oh shit, I'm not supposed to tell people. And I was like, but I'm freaking out. And he was like, No, no, it's okay. I will tell no one. I was like, don't tell anyone I don't wanna get fired. But yeah, so I just remember sitting there and freaking out and trying to look at my lines and, you know, what am I, oh God. And then going there with my clo my little bag of dresses or whatever and they're like, we don't want any of this crap.2 (58m 57s):They're like, this is a high budget show. We got, we got costumes covered5 (59m 1s):Back then. I don't, I know back then, I don't know if they were that high budget, but it was interesting to me. The one thing is, is just how involved the showrunners of that show Peter and or Vince at the time, and then later Peter and Vince. But like, they have a color palette they have where they want the characters to go. Like I had, you know, that it got really paired down. I ended up having like, you know, just a few lines. But they took so many pictures, different outfits, different setups and like different color tones, like just setting what they wanted for my character. And I was like, holy shit or whatever. And they were, everybody was so, and everybody was so nice and friendly.5 (59m 43s):It's really remember your name to hear1 (59m 45s):And I'm glad you talked about it. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm in the rainstorm. So sorry. But like, it's so weird to be, I'm in the Midwest right now and I live in la so coming back here, I'm like, what is that noise? It's fucking fucked up and it's the fucking rain. Anyway, so what is so beautiful about this story to me is that even if we feel small, right? Like whatever, these people who are creating these iconic shows have such vision. There is literally no small character. Like these are their children and they have arcs they have. So it just makes me appreciate as creators, as artists, how much time love, energy goes into characters and storylines.1 (1h 0m 31s):And then we see maybe, maybe if we're lucky one eighth of it, but just know like the shit matters. Right? Like a5 (1h 0m 39s):Thousand percent. And that's the same thing with like, the same thing with Robert Altman. I mean like we were, you know, he, you know, I got to be part of one of those ma his signature long tracking shots, right? He, he would walk in the room and be like, Okay, what's going on in here? So what are you guys doing? What are you, what's happening? And I was like, Well where this, that? And he's like, Great, keep that. And when I come across I want you to be in this moment. You know? So like, and he's like, Teen are things like where he's following on my shoulder and Tina, I need you to do this and this is what's happening. And I've tried, I want, I'm just gonna think about some lines, just throw these out. You know? It was just, I don't know. And that's the same thing with Vince and with Peter. Like, they were really like, what is she wearing? Why is she wearing this? Where are you? Like, you know, what's going on?5 (1h 1m 19s):And like they were like, the scripts were so good. It was like you had to be letter perfect. Barry's like, oh it's a lot of improv. And I'm like, no,1 (1h 1m 26s):No. But2 (1h 1m 26s):Also it sounded like theater, the attention to, to detail and the, and the sort of like the vision and the way that, and you, that just comes through in the best series. The A tours you, you know, that they've thought about and5 (1h 1m 38s):They all love2 (1h 1m 38s):Theater, right? Yeah, right.5 (1h 1m 39s):They all love theater. They all do.2 (1h 1m 41s):So a bit ago you said something about how the, like lustiness that Saul, you know, Jimmy feels for Francesca didn't, you know, necessarily a lot of that didn't necessarily make it into at least your first episode, but it got revisited and Better Call Saul. And I really appreciated that because I was like, Oh yeah, I, I would've wanted to see more of that. You know, I, I wanted to see more of that like lush stage dynamic. But you had,5
Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest MovementLet Me Run This By You: RejectionInterview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company, Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.2 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of2 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?0 (34s):You2 (35s):Part of the building.1 (36s):Okay,2 (37s):Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.1 (41s):I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.2 (45s):That is true. Good morning.1 (48s):Good. Margie,2 (50s):Your makeup looks amazing.1 (53s):Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?2 (59s):Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,1 (1m 10s):The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.2 (1m 15s):Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.2 (1m 58s):So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.1 (2m 0s):Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.1 (2m 40s):She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash2 (3m 23s):Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it1 (3m 44s):Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop2 (4m 6s):Back. Yeah, dude.1 (4m 7s):So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.1 (4m 48s):In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social2 (5m 22s):Media. What1 (5m 23s):She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So2 (5m 50s):Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.2 (6m 40s):If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.1 (6m 57s):Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.1 (7m 43s):And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,2 (8m 0s):Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,1 (8m 14s):The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,2 (8m 45s):Oh,1 (8m 46s):There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.1 (9m 32s):Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.2 (10m 9s):Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.2 (10m 50s):Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So1 (11m 8s):I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.2 (11m 45s):Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.2 (12m 43s):They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.1 (12m 46s):It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,2 (13m 8s):Right? Yes.1 (13m 9s):And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.2 (13m 16s):And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.2 (14m 10s):And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.1 (14m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.2 (14m 48s):Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.1 (15m 22s):Yes. Yeah.2 (15m 23s):I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not1 (15m 58s):Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make2 (16m 38s):Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.2 (17m 23s):So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign1 (17m 48s):Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.2 (17m 57s):Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We1 (18m 1s):Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.2 (18m 9s):Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.2 (18m 51s):That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.1 (19m 13s):Hey,2 (19m 14s):Let run this by1 (19m 15s):You today is about rejection.2 (19m 25s):I love it.1 (19m 26s):I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?1 (20m 10s):And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM2 (20m 18s):Yeah.1 (20m 19s):Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.2 (20m 35s):Oh my god.1 (20m 37s):Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.2 (21m 0s):I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.1 (21m 8s):Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What2 (21m 32s):The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?1 (21m 36s):They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.1 (22m 21s):It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy2 (22m 45s):Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.2 (23m 24s):So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.2 (24m 6s):And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.2 (24m 50s):Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.2 (25m 31s):And that just feels shitty.1 (25m 33s):It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.1 (26m 16s):So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,2 (26m 26s):And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.1 (27m 13s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,0 (27m 47s):I'm2 (27m 47s):Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just4 (28m 7s):Yeah, yeah,2 (28m 8s):Because Yeah, go ahead.4 (28m 11s):No, most recently just two, but yes.2 (28m 13s):Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.2 (28m 55s):It is not a joke. Thank4 (28m 56s):You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut2 (28m 58s):Out. Yeah, thank you.1 (29m 0s):So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.4 (29m 34s):Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're2 (29m 40s):Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.4 (29m 41s):I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.2 (29m 54s):Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was4 (30m 2s):It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.2 (30m 24s):Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?4 (30m 53s):Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.1 (31m 14s):So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.4 (31m 26s):Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.4 (32m 9s):Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but2 (32m 11s):Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.4 (32m 27s):So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.2 (32m 51s):Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I4 (32m 56s):Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.2 (32m 60s):Like,4 (33m 1s):And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh2 (33m 12s):My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's4 (33m 23s):Harder when you get older.2 (33m 25s):No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?4 (33m 34s):She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm2 (34m 3s):Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,4 (34m 7s):Right.2 (34m 7s):Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.4 (34m 10s):I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?4 (34m 53s):Yeah,1 (34m 54s):Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?4 (35m 9s):Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.2 (35m 30s):Oh my, my God.4 (35m 32s):It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So1 (36m 5s):Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?4 (36m 33s):Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh2 (37m 12s):Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.4 (37m 20s):Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.1 (37m 28s):13. I, No, 13. Really young, really4 (37m 30s):Young.1 (37m 31s):13. Do that on your own.4 (37m 32s):So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute2 (37m 55s):Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?4 (38m 7s):So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,2 (38m 48s):My god, all the pressure. And4 (38m 49s):Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model2 (38m 55s):A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.4 (39m 10s):I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But2 (39m 30s):I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.2 (40m 13s):Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,4 (40m 16s):So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.4 (40m 56s):Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.4 (41m 36s):So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA1 (41m 56s):Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.4 (42m 17s):So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.4 (43m 3s):So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.2 (43m 14s):Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.4 (43m 18s):Oh boy.2 (43m 19s):I bet was great. Whatever it was.4 (43m 22s):The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been1 (44m 2s):Saying4 (44m 2s):I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.2 (44m 6s):Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know4 (44m 10s):It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.2 (44m 14s):Oh yeah, that's1 (44m 15s):Exactly what I did. Terrible.2 (44m 20s):Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,4 (44m 46s):So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,2 (45m 4s):Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like4 (45m 8s):At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,1 (45m 39s):This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.2 (45m 48s):No. Was1 (45m 49s):It nerve wracking?4 (45m 51s):Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.2 (46m 9s):So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?4 (46m 20s):No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,2 (46m 39s):So1 (46m 40s):I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?4 (47m 5s):You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.4 (47m 45s):Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,2 (47m 55s):I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.4 (47m 57s):Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.2 (48m 23s):Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.4 (48m 57s):So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.4 (49m 38s):I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.4 (50m 25s):And wait2 (50m 26s):A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.4 (50m 41s):17, Yeah.2 (50m 42s):You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?4 (50m 57s):I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.4 (51m 36s):And2 (51m 37s):That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so4 (51m 55s):I really wanted to go2 (51m 56s):To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?4 (52m 2s):Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was2 (52m 31s):All these like, what a power move.4 (52m 35s):I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.4 (53m 18s):I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my2 (53m 31s):God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.4 (54m 1s):I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's1 (54m 23s):So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.4 (55m 3s):No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.2 (55m 6s):Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?4 (55m 20s):Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.4 (56m 11s):And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is2 (56m 38s):Like4 (56m 39s):Directing and design, like great fallback. But2 (56m 43s):Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.2 (57m 23s):And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.4 (57m 45s):Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.4 (58m 29s):So yeah. So cool.1 (58m 31s):Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?4 (59m 3s):You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,2 (59m 27s):Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.4 (1h 0m 2s):Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?1 (1h 0m 15s):I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.4 (1h 0m 55s):That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.2 (1h 1m 28s):Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.2 (1h 2m 10s):So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.4 (1h 2m 46s):No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.4 (1h 3m 30s):And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.2 (1h 3m 45s):And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?2 (1h 4m 25s):We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.4 (1h 4m 34s):I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.4 (1h 5m 24s):I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,2 (1h 5m 51s):No, it puts more work. It's more work,4 (1h 5m 54s):More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean
Intro: We are in the Great Unraveling - let's knit a new sweater Let Me Run This By You: Thin is In, ETHS Drama teacher Bruce Siewerth's abuse of students, iCarly's creator Dan Schneider's abuse of actors Interview: We talk to Hamilton's own George Washington - Paul Oakley Stovall about family, touring with Hamilton, being fearless, the magic of solving problems behind the scenes, early-age professionalism, quick changes, University of Illinois Urbana- Champaign, almost being a Chemical Engineer, Gary Mills, Don Ilko's quiet championship, Ric Murphy's vocal championship, when Jim Ostholthoff called Paul a supernova, Dr. Bella Itkin's career advice, playing John Proctor in The Crucible and Starbuck in 110 in the Shade, Working by Studs Terkel, Betsy Hamilton, being in Caryl Churchill's Serious Money with Gillian Anderson, Yolanda Androzzo, Minneapolis, playing Jason in Steven Carter's adaptation of Medea called Pecong, the X Files, getting shot in both legs, Matt Scharf, Amy Pietz, Monica Trombetta, performing in Frank Galati's Goodman Theatre's production of Good Person of Setzuan with Cherry Jones, Mary Zimmerman's The Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci, Journey to the West, working for the Obama Administration, when Phylicia Rashad directed Paul's play Immediate Family at the Goodman and then Mark Taper Forum, KernoForto Productions, Wolf in Waiting with Danilo Carrera, Frederick Douglass, and finding a second home in Ireland.
Intro: Boz is buying a house!Let Me Run This By You: 47 year old Gina saw 19 year old Gina doing accent work and Mark Rannin owes me an apology. Interview: We talk to playwright, director, and USC alum Ryan Wagner about self-diagnosing as a bad actor, protecting your joy, Miguel Arteta, filmmaking, his short film Every Other Week, Growing Up Hip Hop, being a PA, and keeping a cohort of friends to make films with.
Intro: Even our lungs need a sense of purpose. Let Me Run This By You: Boz is buying a house!Interview: We talk to actor and documentary filmmaker Cullen Douglas about AMDA, Florida School of the Arts, Southeastern Theatre Conference, Tyne Daly, character actors, Jason Priestly, Patricia Crotty, Our Town, Lenny Bruce, Dick Van Dyke, investigative journalism, reusing caskets, David Carr, Deadwood, playing Bilbo Baggins, being pen pals with Andrea McCardle, singing If I Were A Rich Man, The Pirates of Penzance, Bye Bye Birdie, Robert Sean Leonard, Billy Flanigan: The Happiest Man on Earth, Shonda Rhimes, Twin Peaks, Grey's Anatomy , Barry, Bill Hader, documentary filmmaking, The Humanitas Prize, Private Practice.FULL TRANSCRIPT (Unedited): 1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ruez.2 (10s):And I'm Gina Paci.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.2 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of1 (20s):It all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?3 (33s):TikTok and I started looking at the videos and I was like, Ooh, I don't know about this. I think I need to start wearing wake up. So thank you. You1 (43s):Look gorgeous. How are3 (43s):You doing?1 (44s):Yeah, hi. I'm finally, Many things are happening. Many things are happening. So I finally, even though I'm coughing still little, I finally feel like I am, I like kicked the pneumonia bronchitis situation and little mostly thank you. I, yeah, I, we went away and then to Ventura and I slash Ojai and I really rested and I really, there was one day I worked, but I really mostly rested and I just really was like, okay, I need actual ass downtime. And yeah.1 (1m 25s):And then I started to heal and I was also on praise God for antibiotics. And then the thing that really helped me really kick it was I hadn't exercised my lungs in a really long time at all because I was so sick that I just was like, Who wants to like walk or, and, and it was 107 degrees, so it's like, who wants to exercise in that? So my cousin, my sister came in town, I, that's like a big eyebrow raise for, to drop my niece off to college. And we went on a hike to Griffith, but like a sloping hike, not a crazy hike. And I was like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do it.1 (2m 5s):And it actually helped my lungs to like feel like they were contributing to fucking something and me like Forgot I3 (2m 16s):Like a sense of purpose. Right,1 (2m 17s):Right. And also like to, yeah, to have a job. And they were like, like to be exercised and I was like, Oh, I forgot that. Like the lungs. And, and it's interesting in this whole covid situation, like the lungs need to work too. And I never understood in hospitals, cuz I spent quite a long time in them, why they have those breathing like tube things that you blow the ball and the ball floats up. You have to, I thought that was so dumb until I had bronchitis and pneumonia and I was like, Oh, they have to work. Like they have to be expanded. If you don't use them and work them, they get, it's not good when,3 (2m 58s):When my dad, you know, my dad had this really bad car accident when I was like nine years old and yeah, he rolled 40 times and he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, which saved his life because he was in a convertible. But of course the reason he got into the accident was because he was drinking anyway. He broke everything. Like he broke six ribs and he had one of, he had to spend one year lying on an egg crate mattress on the floor one year. And for the rest of his life, every time he sneezed or coughed it hurt his ribs. But he,1 (3m 34s):Oh, and he3 (3m 36s):Had one of of those things like you're talking about. And as a child I could not get it to the height that I was supposed to go. I shuder to think what it would be like right now. Yes. So you're, that was a good reminder to exercise our lungs. I make sure my breathing capacity is good1 (3m 54s):And, and, and even wait and, and it's like, I always literally thought, oh, you exercise to be skinny. That is the only, only reason no other, like, if you had asked me, I'd say, Oh, there's no other reason. What are you talking about? But now I'm like, oh, these parts of us need actual exercising. Literally lie. I just, it blew my mind.3 (4m 19s):I was lies1 (4m 21s):The lies.3 (4m 22s):It's endless. Yes.1 (4m 27s):Hey, let me run this by you. Oh, I think we're buying a house. What? This is the craziest Oh my not in, Yeah. Okay. This is what went down. So this is so crazy. Miles' job stuff has evened out in terms of like, there's just so much going on that I can't talk about, but which is makes for terrible radio, but podcasting. But anyway, the point is we're we're a little stable, so we went to Ventura and I was like, I fucking love this town. I love Ventura. It's an hour away. It's a weird like, think lost boys, right? Like Lost Boys. The movie is, is really Santa Cruzi, but like, that's what this town reminded of.1 (5m 9s):It's not, so it's Adventurer county, so it's like an hour northwest. It's on the beach. And I was like, I love this town. I I I love it here. There's so many brown folk. It's heavily, heavily you Latina. And it's like, so anyway, I was like, I love it, but I bet I can't afford it like anywhere in California. Well it turns out that Ventura is about 500,000 less on a house than la. So I was like, wait, what? So we saw this darling house that was, that is was small but like beautiful craftsman and you know, I'll just say I'll be totally transparent with $729,000, which is still a shit ton of money.1 (5m 49s):But I looked at the same exact property almost in, in, in Pasadena for 1.3 million for two bedroom, one bath. Yeah. Two bedroom, one bath got preapproved. I've never been preapproved for anything in my goddamn light. We got preapproved for a mortgage. I couldn't, Gina, I couldn't. But when we got the preapproval letter, like I literally, speaking of lies, I was like, okay, well just expect him to come back and say we can't do anything for you.3 (6m 17s):Yeah, right.1 (6m 19s):Just really know it's not gonna work. And he wrote back and was like, Here's what we can do on this house the mortgage wise and it's comparable. It's in the ballpark of what we're paying in rent. And I was like, I don't wanna be going into my middle aged and later years in no space.3 (6m 39s):It really takes a toll. It really takes a toll on your psyche in a way that you can't really account for until you go from no space to having space. And then you go, oh my gosh, there's these three specific muscles in my shoulders that have been tense for the entire time I've been living in a city, you know, decades in some1 (6m 56s):Cases. So it's a whole different, I could build a little studio, like all the things. So yeah. So I'm grateful. Never would occur to me, never would have occurred to me. Never.3 (7m 6s):Do you care to say anything about your sister's visit?1 (7m 10s):Well, you know what is yes. And what is so comforting to me again, you know, if you listen to this podcast you're like, Oh my god, Jen, shut up. But about the truth. Okay. The truth is the fucking truth of, and even, even if it changes from person to person, that person's truth is the truth. And my truth is, I feel, So she came and she stayed not with me because I just, that what we were outta town. And then she stayed in my house while we were gone, which was fine with her, with my niece for one night. And then I saw her one day and that was, that was fine. And then she stayed with my cousin and it was, let's just say it was very, the, for me, my experience was, oh, someone else besides me sees the challenges.1 (7m 60s):And that's what I will say about that. There is something about being witnessed and having someone else go. I see, I feel what you're talking about.3 (8m 11s):Yes. Oh, I, I relate very deeply to that because people who are good at1 (8m 19s):Image image management,3 (8m 22s):At image management, a term I like is apparent competent.1 (8m 26s):Oh yes. Oh yes. I love that. I've never heard that. Apparent, competent. That is it.3 (8m 30s):Yes. Many, many people in life are apparently competent because all of their energy and effort goes into projecting very much just that idea and to be at home with them is a completely different thing. And I'm not saying like, Oh, you should always be competent in all areas of life or that I'm competent in all areas of life. I'm just saying like, yeah, there, there are some, some forms of personality disorders and just like, not even that, but just interpersonal problems are so kind of covert. And they're so, because I feel like people say, I feel like people are always trying to look for like the most broad, you know, big actions to determine whether somebody is1 (9m 13s):Whatever, nurse, whatever. They haven't been hospitalized, they've never been in rehab, they still have a house. You're like,3 (9m 20s):What? It's the same kind of mentality that says if you're not like in the gutter with a, with a mad dog in a paper bag that you're not an alcoholic, you know, it completely ignores probably what 85% of alcoholic for, which is highly functioning Correct. People who don't miss work and Correct. You know, maybe even people in their lives would never, ever know that they had a drinking problem. So yeah. So that is validating. I'm happy that for you, that you had that experience and sometimes it takes like 20, 30 years to get that validation. But the truth always, I mean, you know, it's true. That's the thing. It comes to the surface eventually.1 (9m 56s):Well, and the other thing is, I now as where I used to be so afraid of the truth and I still am, look, I I don't like getting, we know this about me, my feedback is hard for me. I'm scared of all the things, but I used to run from the truth like nobody's business in my own ways. Now I sort of clinging to it as, wait a second, wait a second, what is the truth of the matter? Like what are the facts here? Because I feel like that is the only way for me to not get kaka go, go crazy. And it is comforting. I am comforted in knowing that. Like, it was interesting. So I also am taking a solo show, writing class, I'm writing a new solo show, my third one.1 (10m 41s):And I'm just started and I thought, let me take a class with the woman who I taught. I did the first one in oh four in LA with, anyway, but I was saying on Facebook, like I, I, I'm taking this class with Terry and she's magic and I'm so glad I'm doing it and da da da. And she was like, Hey, I have a question for you. Can I quote you? And I was like, Yes. Because in her, in her like, for a and I said, of course it's all true. Like I didn't have to worry that my quote was somehow dirty or misleading or like, not really what I felt like I've done that so much in my life in the past where I've been like, oh shit, I told them I loved them or I loved their stuff, or I loved and I feel inside totally incongruent with that kind of thing.1 (11m 30s):No, I was like, no, these are what, these are my words now. I try to, it doesn't always work, but I try to just be like, okay, like what is the truth? And if someone had to quote me, would I be okay? And I, and I am a lot of the time I was like, of course you can. It's what I, I'm thanking for asking, but also it's what I feel in my bones about that, that you, that you have a magic when it comes to solo show teaching. That's it, it that is the truth. That my,3 (11m 55s):That is so cool. It's cool that you're doing that and I'll, that it, that gave me a reminder I had wanted to say on this podcast because you know, we had Jeremy Owens on the podcast. Yes. And he recently put on his social that he, he was doing it kind of as a joke, but I think he's actually doing it now, which is doing another solo show. And I had messaged him to say, you know, I meant what I said when I told you that you should do this and that I would help you and that goes for anybody cuz I said, I've said that to a lot of people on this podcast. Like, if you need help, you know, if this conversation has reinspired in you, a desire to go and do this other creative thing, please, I'm not saying like, I'm gonna co-write it with you.3 (12m 37s):I'm saying like, let me know if there's something I can do, if I can read it or, or, or bounce it off of you so that that stands for any of our previous guests. But tell us more about what, what's it gonna be about, what are you gonna be talking about? Well,1 (12m 51s):I don't entirely know, but where I'm leading is, it was interesting in this, See the thing I forgot means is that I like writing exercises. I never do them on my own. I never do. So this, she does writing exercises and a meditation before and I really longed and craved that because I spend so much of my hustle these days. How can I bring in income? How can I advance my career in Hollywood? And that is really shuts down the play aspect of all things. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying that you, that I I'm not saying it's bad. All I'm saying is it totally eliminates for me the create like the really raw fun play creativity.1 (13m 37s):Okay? So in this, in this class, I just took it like, I just took the class. I was like, I'll do it. It's a masterclass in solo work, I'll do it. I like her. She called me, I was on the freeway and I was like, I'll do it. So right now the working title is, and also a solo show more or less. And I don't know if that's gonna change, but it is. Like I, and, and then in the exercise we did, we had our first class Sunday, it was all about, I realized that this solo show needs to be for me more of a call to action that that we, the, and it really comes from something you said, which is, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like we are our only hope, which is the good news and the bad news.1 (14m 25s):So like you said, we are the problem, I am the problem. Which is great. And also the, you know, terrible. So that is sort of this solo show is more gonna be about, it's like more activism based, but in a like creative arts activism way and, and not just a funny antidotes about my wacky family. And I mean, I would argue we could argue that like that my last solo show did have that underneath. But I think there needs to be a more like call to action for artists and people like us to start doing the things in the arts world that are gonna like help save the planet. And I don't know what that means yet, but she was like, oh this is like more of an activism piece based on what you're like it has that component to it.1 (15m 11s):And I was like, yeah. And then she said, if there was a banner, we did these cool exercise, she said, there's a banner all over town, whatever town you're in advertising your show, what would it say? And what came to mind in the meditation was it would be a red banner and it would just say, and it would say hope. And then in parentheses it would say sort of, So what I realized is I'm obsessed with the parentheses, like that's where I live. So I live in the world of I love my life parentheses, it's a fucking nightmare. So I love that kind of thing in my writing. And so I was like, okay, I'm really gonna embrace that. So it's like, it's like that, that stuff, I don't know where it's gonna go. I don't know what it's gonna happen.3 (15m 52s):Well two things. One is you have actually thrown out quite a few excellent titles for show, for solo shows. You'll periodically be like, that's the title of my new book or that's the title of my next, my next solo show. Yeah. So you might have to give a little re-listen to some episodes. I wish I could tell you which1 (16m 11s):I will.3 (16m 12s):Okay. The other thing is something that just came up for me when you said about the parenthesis, which I know exactly what you're talking about. I was saying like, oh yeah, she wants to show the good, the bad and the ugly. Oh. And something that occurred to me was like this concept of underbelly. Like you're showing yes, your soft underbelly. We are, I mean when I think when a person is maturing into themselves, that's what, that's the goal is to get to first accepting your own soft underbelly and then also contending with it and then representing it to the world. Because the thing that I've been on recently is like I have done myself and nobody else any favors for the amount of time I've spent misrepresenting myself because my misrepresenting myself has all been based on the lie that I thought there is a person that you are supposed to be, and your job is to be that person and you know, instead of like figure out the person that you are.3 (17m 10s):So, you know, coming into your own power is, is is a lot what we spend, what I spent my thirties about, like coming into your own power and not say that I arrived at it, but that No,1 (17m 23s):But3 (17m 24s):You about that. And then I think my forties are more about coming into my own vulnerability and that both of those things are really two sides of the same coin. Your power and your vulnerability, right? Because you can't have any power unless you're being honest about, you know, what the situation is. Today we are talking to Colin Douglas. Colin Douglas is an actor, writer, director, and documentary filmmaker who has been on absolutely everything. Most recently you've seen him on Barry and I love that for you.3 (18m 4s):But he's been, I joke in the, in our interview that he's been an absolutely every television show ever made. And that's only a slight exaggeration. He's been on Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice and the 2017 revival of Twin Peaks Agents of Shield, Pure genius. He's just been on everything Deadwood. So he's very experienced, he's very wise and he's very warm. So I hope you enjoy our conversation with Colin Douglas.0 (18m 34s):Great.3 (18m 36s):So congratulations Colin Douglas, you survived theater school. You survived4 (18m 42s):Two3 (18m 42s):Theater schools as a matter of fact.4 (18m 45s):I did. I was a glut for punishment actually. Yes. I I couldn't get enough of it.3 (18m 50s):So it was a BFA and MFA both in acting?4 (18m 54s):No, you know what, it was a zero degree. I, I am still just kind of riding by the seat of my pants. I actually, when I attended amda, it was not a degree program yet. Now it is. But back in the day it was basically they just kind of said, okay, go audition. And then when I went to Florida School, the arts, it only had an AA degree and I literally am still to this day two credit shy of my degree because I had booked a job out of Sctc and it was gonna be starting and I was like, I'm not sitting around and getting my degree just so that I can go get a job.4 (19m 42s):So I went, I took the job and I never looked back.1 (19m 45s):I mean that is, here's, I was just talking to someone who went to the theater school last night, my friend Lindsay. And we were talking about how conservatory I wish, I wish that I had done things differently, but it is what it is. But what you are reminding me of just go and audition is like the most valuable piece of advice anyone could have given us, which we never got. Which was now you, the piece of paper that says you have a BFA is not for not, but it's also not, it doesn't directly correlate to getting jobs. Like, it just doesn't. So you, you got a job while you were in school and said, I'm going, you didn't even think about staying or how did that work in your brain?4 (20m 30s):Well it was, it was because I was literally just the two credit shy kind of thing. And actually the class was, it was sort of a lab where I, you know, I had to help strike sets, but I was so busy with doing shows that I never had time to go help out with strike. So it was one of those things, oh okay, I'll, I'll require, I'll get that when I can get it when I have the time. And I never did. And then the tour was starting before the fall session started and I was like, you know what? My only regret honestly was the fact that I felt like, and, and again, it's not, you know, if somebody were to ask me today, you know, should you go to theater school?4 (21m 16s):I would say yes, if that's what really where you wanna hone your craft if you wanna, you know, build your community, but don't, if you're gonna do something like that, go to a program that has an established alumni because that's where your connections are being made when you get out of school is that support network that you have at amda at the time, there really wasn't, you know, when I was there, the biggest sort of claim to fame at the time was Time Daily. She was a graduate of, of Amda. And so it was, it wasn't as if I could reach out to Time Daily all of a sudden.4 (21m 59s):And then Florida School, the arts was, and still is such a small arts school that there really wasn't anybody for me to reach out to. Had I gone to Northwestern, had I gone to Juilliard or Yale or, or or Tish, that I would've had a built-in network of working professionals on the outside. So that was my only regret in that, that if I had perhaps gone to a different theater school, maybe I would've had those connections. But I certainly got the education I felt I needed.3 (22m 34s):Well and also you got the connections while getting paid instead of having to pay, which is was just definitely preferable. And by and speak about, you know, work experience and getting connections. You have been on every television show that has ever existed and tons of films too. So was your experience that as soon as you started working, you were just off to the races? I mean, I'm not suggesting that it's easy because no life of an actor is easy, but have, has it been pretty consistent for you would you say for your career?4 (23m 10s):It's been consistently inconsistent in that,1 (23m 16s):Wait, I just have to say that has to be the name of your book. Okay. I, we were talking about earlier before you got on about titles of shows and books, your book could be consistently inconsistent. The Culin Douglas story, I'm just, I'm just putting it out there. Thank you. Please send me 10% check to my office.4 (23m 32s):Yeah, thanks. No, it really, it was one of those things that I, I had a very dear professor at Florida School of the the Arts, Patricia Kadi, she was the acting instructor there and I was doing all of the plays, I was in all of the productions there and I had kind of become the top dog in the school, so to speak. And she pulled me aside one day and she said, you know, the one thing you're gonna have to realize is you're probably not gonna start working professionally until you're in your thirties.4 (24m 13s):And I, and I didn't really understand what she was saying there. What she was basically commenting on was that I was a young character actor and I didn't look like Jason Priestly, I didn't look and yet I hadn't grown into my framer look either. So I was gonna be in this really sort of, where do we cast him? He's talented but we don't know where to put him. And so I did a lot of theater for a lot of years and then in my thirties is when I was able to transfer into television and film. So what, cause I finally had kind of caught up to my look.1 (24m 45s):Yeah. So what I appreciative aid about that is it sounds like she said it so she said it in a way that wasn't like being a jerk, right? Like my experience was feeling that way except having it told like there is something deficient in you so that you cannot be an ingenue cuz you're too fat, you're too this. So instead of, hey, go do some theater, do all the things and then you'll grow into your look, do not fret. This is like part of the technical side of the business of how a camera sees you and not about your talent. It would've been so much different. Instead it comes down to, I think a lot of people we've talked to from the DePauls, from the Northwestern say, nobody told me that in a way which was, I could make a plan about it.1 (25m 35s):It was always just, well you're never gonna be cast. So by, and instead of hey maybe you could do theater, maybe you could write, maybe you could do something else until Hollywood catches up to the character of you.4 (25m 50s):Exactly.1 (25m 51s):It good, Patricia. Good. Is Patricia still around?4 (25m 54s):She is. And she literally just announced today that she's retiring from teaching. Well1 (25m 60s):Patricia, you did good work and you she did fantastic. You made it so call in part of it sounds like she encouraged you cuz you started with that story of her encouraged you to know that maybe later it would be your time to be on every single television show ever written. But for the twenties and the, you know, you were gonna do some theater and, and get your training right man, and,4 (26m 23s):And I honestly, I didn't completely understand everything she was saying in that little sound bite because, you know, I was, I was sort of standing there saying, Patty, look at all these job offers. I just got out of CTCs, you know, I'm gonna be working like crazy. And she said, No, no, no, don't get me wrong that the work is going to be there. But as far as what you're seeing in your mind's eye of, you know, Helen Douglas tonight on The Tonight Show, that's not gonna happen until you can kind of get into that other stream as it were. How3 (27m 0s):So did that match up? I mean, was that a surprise to you or did that match up with what you already thought about yourself? I don't think any 17 year old, 18 year old necessarily thinks of themselves as a character actor. Although it may just be because it never gets put to you that that's an option when you're a teenager. You know, the option is like, as Bos mentioned, Ingenu or not Ingenu, but they never really say like, Well, but you, you know, you're gonna fit into this different mold. So how did that butt up against what you already thought about yourself?4 (27m 32s):It actually kind of lined up okay with me in, in a weird way because at Florida School, the arts in particular, they were so gracious in the fact that when they picked their seasons, they picked shows that it made sense for me to be the lead in, in that I, I'm giving you an example, we did a production of Our Town and I was the stage manager and, you know, as opposed to being cast as the one of the young, you know, lead ingenue kind of a things. And then we did Bye by Birdie and I was cast in the Dick Van Dyke role.4 (28m 12s):And so they did it in such a way that, you know, or when we did Barefoot in the Park, I was Victor Velasco the old man who lived upstairs. So I was already sort of being primed that I was this character actor and would be gonna be doing that kind of stuff. And then quite honestly, as that look started to emerge, I mean in college I had sort of a flock of seagulls kind of hairdo thing going on, you know, and then it quickly all went away. And I had been playing about 20 years older in film and television and in theater than I've actually always been, you know, I was playing guys in my, when I was in my, you know, thirties, I was playing guys in my fifties.4 (28m 59s):Now I'm in my fifties and I'm playing guys in my in1 (29m 1s):In seventies. And I think that calling, the thing that I'm noticing too is like maybe for men it's a little different too, right? Like there's something about being, like, there's just, and it's a societal thing where like women who are play, like, it's, it's a insult for women when they're like, Oh, we're sending you in for a 50 year old and you're 30. But, and I think maybe if you have a certain kind of ego for a man as well, and we all have egos, I mean, it says, but, and I, I love the fact that you didn't, it doesn't sound like anyway, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you took it as an insult that they were, that you were going out for roles that were for like the Victor Velasco of the world. You were able to embrace it as you were working.1 (29m 43s):Like that's, so I say this all to say, because I remember in our last class with Jim Ooff, who people call hostile prof and he said to me, You know who you are. And I was like, dying to hear you are Michelle Pfeiffer. That was never gonna happen. But I was dying to hear, he was like, That's who you, he's like, you are the next. And I'm waiting and, and I'm waiting. He goes, Lenny Bruce. And I was like, what the actual fuck is going on? What are you telling me?3 (30m 13s):No idea. What a great compliment that was.1 (30m 15s):I was devastated, devastated. I wanted to quit. I was suicide. Like it was just, But anyway, so what I'm saying is you didn't take that and run with it in a way that was like, I am not Jason Priestly and therefore my life is over. You were able to work and, and embrace the roles. It sounds like4 (30m 34s):I was able to embrace the roles and, and I was getting, okay, you are a young dick fan dyke, you're a young, this kind of a guy. So I was able to kind of make that connection. I honestly were being completely honest here. I think, how do I put this, that it does not sound completely like an asshole. It1 (30m 54s):Doesn't matter. We always sound like assholes here. Go ahead.4 (30m 57s):But at Florida school, the arts, I was one of, I was one of the only straight men at school and therefore undated a lot. So I was not, the fact that I wasn't looking like the young hot stud,1 (31m 22s):You were still getting it4 (31m 23s):Right? I was still getting it. So that didn't it, had it not been like that situation, I think I probably would've started to hyperventilate thinking, well hold it, I'm in my twenties, why are they making me play these old men? And this is affecting, you know, cus group. But that wasn't the case. And so I, I had sort of a, a false sense of ego I guess a little bit. But it was supporting the work that I was doing.3 (31m 50s):Yeah, absolutely. So did you grow up always knowing that you wanted to be an actor? Did you think, did you try any other paths first? Or were you, were you dead set on this?4 (32m 2s):I was dead set when the story goes, that when I was four I asked Santa for a tuxedo to wear to the Emmys and Santa delivered gave me a, a white dinner jacket and spats and stuff like that. So I was, I was ready to go.1 (32m 18s):Oh my god, do you have that picture? Can you please send us that?4 (32m 22s):Oh no, we have moved so many times. When I was growing up, my dad, when I was growing up was an undercover investigative reporter. And so wherever he was basically undercover was where we were living. Wait1 (32m 36s):A minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait. Okay. This is fantastic because I do a lot of crime writing and so does Gina writes and undercover crime reporter father now, right there is sort of burying the lead. What in the hell? He was an undercover, What does that even mean? An undercover, He's not a police officer, but he's an undercover reporter.4 (32m 57s):He was an undercover investigative reporter. Well, what that for a period of time, So I'll give you an ex, there was a senator at one time back in the early seventies who was receiving kickbacks from his employees or hiring people on the books. And those people weren't actually having jobs. And so they would then send him the money. He was getting all of the money.1 (33m 24s):Sure. Like Chicago was like living in Chicago all time.4 (33m 28s):So the, somebody tipped my father off that this was happening. And so he went undercover and, and worked as sort of like an aid and things like that. Or there was a time where he, he worked at a meat packing place or he worked at a funeral parlor that was selling caskets with fake bottoms. And so people would buy these incredibly expensive things and then they would drop them and then they'd open up the hatch and the body would just drop into a pine box and then they would reuse the, the casket.1 (34m 8s):So this is the single greatest thing I've ever heard in my life, and I'm gonna write a pilot about it immediately called Fake Bottom. And it's4 (34m 14s):Gonna see, I've already wrote that was, I actually wrote a spec pilot. That's how I landed my lid agent. Oh, it was because what ended up happening is my dad, much to my mom's chagrin, used me in two of his undercover stings when I was a kid. One time, there was a situation where firemen had been hired and they weren't actually properly trained. It was another one of those kind of kickback situations. So it was a training session and they, I was supposedly, it was a staged event where they were gonna try to test the skills of the firemen or whatever.4 (34m 55s):And so I was gonna, I I practiced with a real fireman being fireman carried up and down a ladder from a second story kind of a thing. But once the word was out that it was an internal sting, they put me into one of those crane baskets. And so I was sort of floating over midtown in, in the basket kind of a thing. And then another time actually, there was a talent agent who was running a kitty porn ring. And so I was sort of used to expose, so to speak, this this person that was actually trying to take advantage of, of kids and parents.3 (35m 38s):Oh my God. Well, two things occur to me about that. One is your family was already full of drama before you came along. I mean, anybody who wants to, right, who wants to do this investigative journalism, Like that's, that's a dramatic person. I love David Carr. I love that kind of personality of per, you know, the person who wants to like really get in there, investigate and just as an aside, like, I'm sorry for the families who paid for those coffins, but at the same time, you know, good, good on them because it's such a waste. So much, many people spent putting mahogany boxes into the ground to to, to, to decompose over time. Okay. So did your parents like that you wanted to be an actor or did they have a different idea for plan for you?4 (36m 19s):Oh, they, they were 100% supportive. The very, very much so from day one, I think, because it was my mom who really sort of stepped in and said, Hey, let's figure out how we can get this new kid who's always the new kid to find his people. And so she took me when I was 11 years old to a local community theater, children's community theater. And they were doing a production, a musical version of The Hobbit. And you know, the intention was that I was just gonna audition and be, you know, number 40 in the background kind of a thing.4 (37m 0s):Third,3 (37m 1s):Third habit from the left,4 (37m 3s):Third habit from the, And so they auditioned and I remember you had to sing a song and God, I have not told this story, you had to sing a song. And I decided to sing tomorrow from Annie because I was me madly, deeply in love with Andrea Ricardo. And we were actually pen pals. And so I went in there and I sang tomorrow and jump cut to that weekend. And my mom came in Saturday morning smiling as I was watching cartoons and she said, You've been cast in the lead as Bill Bos. And that was sort of like, okay, I I I found my people.3 (37m 47s):That's amazing. Please tell us more about your penal with,4 (37m 54s):So I, I just, I, you know, I I had gotten the album when it came out and I listened to it and I memorized it. And even then I was casting myself as either Rooster or Daddy Warbuck, you know. And so somehow I found her address and sent her, you know, a, a letter as we used to write, you know, before texting. And she wrote back and then I wrote back, and then the thing that was really exciting was 20,3 (38m 28s):Wait a minute, are you married to Annie?4 (38m 31s):No, I am not married to Annie. Okay. But 20 some odd years later I was doing a national tour and staying in a hotel in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Andrea was on tour doing a national tour and was staying in the same hotel, kind of bumped into one another and was like, you know, you don't know who I am, but this. And it ended up, it was wonderful because I went to see her show on my dark night and she and her family came to see me on, on the other night. So.1 (39m 7s):Beautiful. Okay, so here we go. Your family's on board and why didn't you just go and strike it out either in New York or anywhere? Why did you end up going to school? Were you like, I wanna learn more, or how did that transition into schooling go?4 (39m 24s):It did, I did wanna learn more. It, it really was because up at that point, the only influences as far as acting I was going was from, you know, the, either the community theater directors or the high school drama teacher who had, you know, aspirations for theater, but was really just doing it because he didn't wanna coach the football team. So I felt like I needed a stronger foundation for myself. And, but always it was sort of like I was going to the theater school because I didn't feel like, Oh, I don't wanna go to a school where I'm gonna have to learn all of these other things that I'm not gonna ever use.4 (40m 7s):Now I look back and go, you know, I wish I had done some of that other stuff because I did not create any kind of a fallback plan for me. It would, this is either gonna work or it's not gonna work and you're gonna be screwed. I1 (40m 21s):Mean, here's the thing, here's the thing. I don't know what you, you two think, but like, there is this two schools of, well there's probably a bajillion schools of thought, but one of them is like, if you have a fallback plan, you will fall back. The other one is not everyone is gonna be a Colin Douglas or a John C. Riley that's gonna work, work, work, work, work, work, work. So a fallback plan for some of us might have been like another avenue to get into the industry, right? But a fallback plan can also literally have people go and not live their dreams and become, you know, actuary scientists because they're afraid. So it's like, it's so individual, which is why I think theater school training is so tricky is because you're taking young individuals who don't know shit and some know what they wanna do, some don't, some are good, some are talented, but not, it's so individual.1 (41m 10s):So it's like when people ask me, should I go to theater school? I'm like, I fucking don't know who, I'm like, who are you and what do you wanna do on the planet? But nobody ever asked me that as a 17 year old. So here we are. Gina, you were gonna say something? Oh,3 (41m 23s):I was just going, if you remember your audition,4 (41m 30s):My audition into theater school. Okay. So I do, I remember my audition into anda a, and again, I already recognizing I was a character actor. I sang if I were a rich man from Fiddler on the Roof, you know, you know, a skinny ass, you know, kid from, you know, suburbia singing that song. And then I did a monologue from a play that I had done in high school. And which1 (42m 9s):One do you remember? Or No,4 (42m 10s):It's okay. It was it, yes. No, actually it was weird because I look back on it now kind of thinking how the soul sometimes prepares. I think sometimes it was a, from a show called Juvie, and I played a young gentleman who was mentally challenged and I got a lot of incredible feedback from, from the role because I had researched, I had, I had gone to the library and this is, there was a thing called Microfish when you would go to the library and you'd have to look up stories on kind of like a big machine. And I did all of these kind of things and research the roles, and I saw images of babies and young people with different kind of cognitive delays.4 (42m 60s):And so I did that. I got into Amda, whatever, again, sort of jumping forward in life. In 1996, my oldest son was born and he happened to be born with Down syndrome. And when I met him for the first time at the bassinet, I immediately went back to that Microfish machine in high school and remembered seeing babies and images of people with Down syndrome. And so I made that kind of connection. So it was sort of like, all right, this is where life was going as far as Florida School, the arts went, I actually didn't audition for that.4 (43m 43s):What had happened is I was at, and I broke my foot during one of the dance classes. They would bring in dance captains from various Broadway shows and teachers routines. And we were doing a routine from cats and I jumped off of a piling and I came down flat for,1 (44m 5s):Let me tell you something. This is what, this is just one of the many reasons I don't care for that musical is that also what are you having people jumping around for that? Aren't I just, anyway, I'm glad they brought, I'm sure it was a great experience in some ways, but like, I just don't care for, that was my first musical I saw. And I even as a kid, I was like, I don't buy this at all. I don't know what's going on here, but I don't like it. But anyway, so you busted your foot. Oh, and can I just say about microfiche? I'm sorry to be an asshole, but like, I could never figure out how to slow the fucking shit down and I never could see a goddamn story, so I gave up on the microphone, so you made it further than me. I was like, why is it going too fast? That was my, that's like, like, that's like so indicative of my life. But anyway, so okay, so you, you broke your foot and so what happened?1 (44m 49s):You had to, why did you4 (44m 50s):So I, I, I broke my foot, I went home to my parents' place who were now living in Florida and kind of rehabbed for a while. I then auditioned for a play for Pirates of Penza, excuse me, that was up, up performances up near St. Augustine, Florida. And I went up there and I was playing Samuel the the second pirate. And the gentleman who was playing the modern major general in the show was actually the dean and artistic director of Florida School of the Arts. And he said to me, If you'd like to come to school, we'll offer you a full scholarship and you can start at the, as soon as the show closes.4 (45m 38s):And so that's what I did. It was like, I just went straight to Flos Bureau Arts and I did not go back up to Amda after my footed here. Helen,1 (45m 45s):It's really interesting, like, and I was talking about, this was someone else yesterday about how one, obviously one thing leads to the next, Oh it was a showrunner actually, that was that I was listening to a lecture and she just said that what I've done is I have walked through doors that have opened to me without a lot of second guessing. I followed my heart in terms of who took interest in me and who opened doors for me. I walked through them. I didn't say no, but, or no, I just did it. And so it sounds like that's what you did. You were like, Oh, full ride, I'm in Florida now. You could have been like, No, no, no, I'm gonna go back to Amda because whatever.1 (46m 26s):But you were like, I'm gonna do this. And it sounds like it worked in your favor, but what was your experience like at Florida? Did you, I mean obviously we know you left early, but did you get stuff out of it? Did you love it? What was the deal?4 (46m 41s):I did love it in the sense that because it was such a small school and because where the school is located, it's in Plac of Florida, which is sort of geographically in the middle of sort of Jacksonville and Gainesville. And so on a Friday night there really wasn't any partying going on. It was all of us getting together and doing monologues for one another, you know, because there wasn't any place to really go. And then as far as the classes went, because it was such a small institution, so many of my classes were literally just myself and professor in their office.4 (47m 26s):And we would do, you know, that's how I learned dialects was literally just, you know, we were working on the Italian dialect or whatever and I would go in and the professor would speak to me in that Italian dialect and then I would have to answer him and that would be the entire class. And then the next week we would do the brooklynese. And so I had all of that and they were very, very gracious to me because when I came in as quote a freshman, I was taking all of the freshman courses, but then they also had me taking all of the second year acting courses as well, sort of accelerating me through the program and then allowing that by doing that I was able to be cast in all of their different productions.3 (48m 15s):So when you did school and enter the workforce, what surprised about sort of the business that maybe you weren't expecting or hadn't been prepared for? For in terms of your training or, you know, and it could have been a happy surprise or, or, or not such a happy surprise, but like what was some I always just feel like there's, people have their list of things. Oh, I never thought the one that people always bring up as coverage, I never thought, when I watched TV shows that they had to do the same thing 50 times.4 (48m 58s):I, I think for, for me, the biggest sort of, even though Patty Crotty, Patricia Crotty had said, you know, Hey, it's gonna be a while before you're gonna start to work. You know, although I did work immediately when I got outta school, it was, it was one of those things where I quickly realized that they really didn't care that I had played Albert and by by Birdie they didn't care that I was in all of the productions. It was basically, no, you've earned the right to stand in the back of a line and you're gonna have to, you know, get up at an ungodly hour, go to equity, sign in at 6:00 AM and then come back at two in the afternoon for your audition.4 (49m 47s):But by the time you come back, if you pick up backstage, you're gonna read that Robert Strong Leonard has already been offered the role that you're auditioning for at two o'clock. So those were sort of some of the realities of, oh, okay, this is not necessarily gonna be the projecting thing that's gonna get me into the room. It's just, it's gonna be more for me that, okay, I feel like I deserve to be here and I'm competent enough in my abilities. But I, I think that was as far as just working in general. But Gina, to answer the question as far as like the thing that I was most surprised by within the industry, I'm, I'm trying to think if there was anything that I really was sort of taken aback by,1 (50m 31s):Well I guess I can ask like, did you, what was your like, like in terms of getting an agent and all that, did anything there go like, Oh my gosh, I didn't understand that I would have to, How did your representation come about? Was that a surprise or did you just get an agent? Cause a lot of our listeners, some of them we talk, you know, we talk about like a showcase or, but you left early and just started working, so what was that transition like in terms of getting representation and going on, on auditions for film and TV or theater? And if you think of anything that surprises you along the way, just let us know. But sure,4 (51m 4s):I didn't have theatrical, I didn't have legit theater representation for a lot of years. I was literally very lucky in that, you know, just using relationships, you know, to help propel me into the next situation that one show would be closing and I would hear about the fact that they were looking for something else. Or I would go to the Southeastern Theater conference and audition and be able to pick up my next year or year and a half worth of work. And I was able to kind of keep it at that point. I finally did get an agent who was gonna cover me theatrically as well as, you know, commercially.4 (51m 46s):And I remember her telling me, she was basically saying the same thing that Patty Crotty had said is that, you know, you know, you're a good actor, I'll put you out there, but it's, it's probably gonna be a while before you're gonna book a commercial or any kind of television cuz you're just really hard to place. She was good to her words. She put me out there and a week later I booked a Budweiser commercial. So I was like, Oh, okay, I think I got this. I, I think the hardest lesson that I had to learn was that because it sometimes came easy, it felt like, like, oh, okay, this is what it was, is I would get say to that chunk of change.4 (52m 29s):And I, it took me a while to figure out that I had to make that chunk of change, stretch as far as I possibly could because I didn't know exactly when the next job was coming from and, and that it was hard when I met and fell in love with my wife who was coming. She had been a model, but she had also worked in the corporate world. And so she was very accustomed to, well no, you make this amount of money every month and this is what you can expect with your expenses. It was hard when we started to realize, oh no, CU just got a great windfall of money, but if you break it down and spread it out over a year, he's not making minimum wage.4 (53m 10s):So, you know, it was a really, that was a hard kind of thing to adjust with.3 (53m 15s):Yes. I mean that's, yes, that's a common story and that's something that they don't teach you about in theater school. They don't teach you money management and how you have to withhold taxes and all kinda stuff. Yeah. So that, that's that, that's, that's a whole education in and of itself. But you were also a writer and director. When did the writing and directing and producing come into your career?4 (53m 40s):The writing actually started in college in that we would have to have monologues for class and I had an affinity to writing the monologues and so I started writing monologues for my classmates for beer money or they would need an audition piece for something in particular. And so I would tailor it to sort of echo whatever play that they were auditioning for kind of a thing. And so it really just sort of came easy for me. And then whenever I was auditioning, my biggest thing was I don't wanna go in there with something that they have seen 3000 times.4 (54m 23s):And so I was like, Okay, you know what? I'm just gonna write my own thing. And it worked, it worked to a degree. And so that's where I sort of started to do it. And then personally after my oldest son Gabe was born, I had a lot of demons to be dealing with. I didn't understand why I had been chosen or whatever, or, or given a child with a disability and, and it took me kind of having to get outta my own way to realize that was the least interesting thing about him. And, but in doing so, I, I started to write in journals and then I ended up writing a one man play that I in turn tour the country with for a handful of years.4 (55m 11s):And it was that play that I then attracted some other attention and then got hired on to do some other writing in script doctoring or whatever. And then as I shared earlier, I wrote a spec script about that time of my life when we were kind of moving into hotels and things like that. And then that kind of just started to snowball. And then I was very fortunate back in 2010, I had the Humanitas Organization, Humanitas Prize. They tapped me as the first recipient of their New Voices fellowship program, which pairs you with showrunners to sort of mentor you in creating a television series.4 (56m 0s):And so I was shared with, paired with Shonda rhymes over at Shondaland and was able to develop a show, which was actually an adaptation of my one man play, about a family, you know, coming to terms and dealing with a child with a disability. But I had already actually had a relationship with Shawnda prior to that because I had gotten cast in an episode of Grey's Anatomy and she and her producing partner, Betsy Beers, put me up for an Emmy for that role. And then when I didn't get the nomination, Shawnda turned around and created a role for me over on private practice.1 (56m 46s):Okay. So you know, all these people, and I guess I'm mindful of time and I wanna know what the hell are you, are you doing now you have this documentary, What is your jam right this second? Colin Douglas. And if you could do anything, what would it be? And tell us about this documentary, because what I don't wanna happen is it's like 10 minutes go by and we haven't heard about the documentary and we haven't heard about like, what is your jam and your juice right this second.4 (57m 13s):Okay. So I, I made the documentary, I started working on it when we got locked out, you know, the world was hurting, the industry was shut down. I couldn't stand in front of a camera, I couldn't direct a bunch of actors in a narrative, but I knew I could still tell stories. And so I, at one point in my career, I detoured and I was an associate show director and a performer at Walt Disney World. I was there for about three years. And the level of talent in those theme parks is just incredible. You know, there are a lot of people who come outta theater schools and they get their job, you know, at Dollywood or at Bush Gardens or at Disney World or Disneyland, and they spend the summer there and then they go off and do whatever else with their life.4 (58m 5s):There are other individuals like the subject of my film, Billy Flanigan, who, he started right after theater school. He went to Boston Conservatory. He then opened up Epcot in 1982 as a kid at the Kingdom and has been working for 40 years straight as a performer out at Disney. When the Disney Park shut down because of the pandemic, Billy was without a stage for the first time in his 40 year career. So what he did is he took it upon himself to start doing singing and dancing telegrams for other performers who were out of work. And then he started to literally take it on the road because he's a cyclist and he started crisscrossing the entire country, delivering these sing in dancing telegrams called Planograms.4 (58m 55s):And my Facebook page was blowing up with, I got Planogrammed, I got Planogrammed and I, so I reached out to some old friends from Disney and I said, I've heard about this name Billy Flanigan for years. He's a, he's a legend. He was a legend 20 years ago when I was working, You know, can you put me in touch with him? And so I spoke with Billy. I reached out to my producing partner and I said, There's a documentary here, because Billy has just been so incredibly selfless. He's always a pay it forward kind of a guy. He's a performers performer, you know, even though he jokes about the fact that he'll get a nosebleed if he's not on center.4 (59m 36s):But it's one of those things where he just really is about making the other people on stage look good. So he's been the face of Disney. But then what ended up happening is he was so busy working and raising an entire family that a handful of years ago, Billy finally slowed down and realized that he had been living a different life than he perhaps should have been. And he came out and it really destroyed his family and, and brought things down. And so you had this guy who day in and day out was still having to give that Disney, you know, RAAs, but behind the scenes, as we all know, his performers, the show's gotta go on.4 (1h 0m 20s):And so his heart was breaking. And so I said to Billy, Look, if we tell your story, we're gonna have to tell all of it, because I feel like you sharing your humanity and your pain is gonna help other people out there within the L G B T community who are feeling bullied or feeling like they don't have their place. So if we can do this, this is, this is sort of our mandate. And he said yes. And his family said yes. And, and thankfully not as a direct link to the film, but I shared the final cut with Billy and his family, because obviously I had to have their final approval. And Billy called me and said, This film is helping heal my family now, because it had given them that creative distance that it was no longer them, it was these other people up on a screen talking about a period of their life.4 (1h 1m 13s):So right now, the film, it premieres digitally on October 7th, and then is available on D V D November 15th. And then after the first of the year, it'll be looking like landing on one of the major streamers.3 (1h 1m 29s):Oh, that's fantastic. I'm so excited to see it because I watched the trailer and that thing that you were describing about, you know, he's, he's, he's gotta always have a stage that comes through from the first frame. You see him, you think, Wow, this guy is like a consummate performer in a way that I could never imagine. I mean, yes, I, I love to be on stage. It's fantastic, but I, I don't have this thing where like, you know, I've gotta be performing every second. And that was really clear. And I didn't know, I didn't glean from the trailer that he was doing that for fun for other performers. I thought he was just starting his business with the singing telegram. So that is even more interesting. Okay, that's really cool.3 (1h 2m 9s):So after the first of the year, it'll come out on a streamer. And actually when you know which one it is, you'll let us know and we'll, we'll promote it on our socials. And I4 (1h 2m 17s):Wanted, but you can preorder now the DVD and the digital.1 (1h 2m 22s):Yeah. I didn't mean to like cut us off from Shonda land, but I really wanted to make sure that we talk about this documentary because I think that it is taking your career and your life in, it's like it's made it bigger and about other things other than, I mean, it's like there's a service component to documentary work that like, I think is not always there in other kinds of media. That documentary work is like at once, for me anyway, really personal, but also universal and also has a great capacity for healing. And so, or at least the truth, right? Like what is the truth?1 (1h 3m 2s):So that's why I wanted to make sure we covered that. But if there's other things you wanna say about your career and like what you're doing now and where you wanna go or anything else, I wanna give you the opportunity, but I wanted to make sure, So I didn't mean to cut off your Shonda land story because I know people are probably like, Oh my God, tell more about Sean Rhymes. But I wanted to talk about the, the Billy documentary.4 (1h 3m 24s):I appreciate that so much. No, I, I, you know, just to sort of bookend the, the documentary, I never felt like it was one of those things that I knew I could tell stories, but I didn't feel like I had any business telling the documentary. I don't necessarily even gravitate towards documentaries, but I just felt like, hold it. This truly is a story that that needs to be told and can maybe bring about a little bit of healing. And that's what I think good films and television do that you, we, we see ourselves mirrored back in many ways and we feel less alone.4 (1h 4m 5s):And so I felt like if I could do that with a narrative, maybe I can do it with a, a documentary. That's not to say that I wanna become a documentarian, because it's not that I wouldn't if the opportunity ever presented itself, but it's the same way in which, you know, writing a narrative feature, it's like, well, I've gotta be compelled to wanna tell this story kind of a thing. And this just happened to be the medium in which to tell it as opposed to making a, you know, a, a film about a guy named Billy who wants to start out being a performer.1 (1h 4m 40s):And I think that you've said a really good word that we talk about sometimes in other ways on this show and in my life I talk about is being compelled. So when someone is compelled to do something, I know that the art created from that feeling of being compelled is usually authentic, true necessary, and, and, and, and, and sometimes healing. So I love the word what doing projects that were compelled. So anything else that you're compelled to do right now?4 (1h 5m 14s):Work great, really, you know, I I, I really, I I still even after, you know, making this, this film, I, I am still very much an actor at heart and I love being on camera. I love the collaborative experience working with other actors. You know, I was very, very fortunate this past season to to work on Barry with Bill Hater and Bill, I guess if I, it was like, what's next? What's my next jam? I would love to be able to emulate what Bill is doing. You know, Bill is the lead. He's also writing, he's also directing all of the episodes.4 (1h 5m 58s):You know, I joked with him that he also ran craft services because it was literally doing all those things and just watching him effortlessly move from being Barry back to Bill, giving me a note and then giving a note to the DP and then stepping back into Barry was just a really wonderful thing. And it's like, you know what, if I can do that, and I have other friends and, and mentors like Tom Verica, Tom actually directed me in that first episode of Grey's Anatomy. And he and I have since become dear friends. He's now the executive producer and resident director on Bridger.4 (1h 6m 39s):He also was the resident director and producer on inventing Anna. And he and I have developed a narrative film that we're looking to produce as well. And, and, and so again, and yet, you know, Tom as sort of an aspiration or an inspiration for me. And he started out as an actor himself. And then, you know, he directed a lot of Grey's Anatomy and then the next thing you know, he's playing Vila, Viola Davis' husband on how to Get Away with Murder. And then he was also the lead producer on Scandal. So it's like, you know, not being defined by what this industry wants to put you in.4 (1h 7m 20s):I feel like I'm finally at the point in my career where Colin can direct a documentary and he could write something for somebody else and he could act. And, and again, you know, from day one when I, when I left Flow Arts early to go out and do the job, it's just because I wanna keep working. Yeah.3 (1h 7m 38s):And that's, that's, everybody says that. Everybody says, I just wish I could be working constantly. Cuz it's where it's where all the fun of, of the work is, you know, not auditioning and getting head shots and whatever. It's, it's, it's doing the work. By the way, Barry is how I came to ask you to be on this podcast, because I didn't watch it when it first came out. I, I kind of came to it late and of course binge the whole thing and it's fantastic. And, and I immediately went and looked up every single actor to see who went to theater school because I, I would love to have them all. What a fantastic show and what an interesting kind of nice little parallel somehow with your documentary and, and also your own story.3 (1h 8m 18s):There's a lot about actors like figuring out what they're doing on screen and, and kind of reconciling that with their offscreen life or, or even just with their career. Do I wanna be this type of actor? Do I wanna be this type of person? You know, Ha and Bill Hater has seamlessly gone, I mean, once upon a time you would not have really thought of a Saturday Night Live person making quite this kind of crossover. And the humor in that show about actors is so perfect. I've ne I've seen things that have come close to that, but I've never seen something that you're just dying laughing if you know anything about the acting profession, Right?3 (1h 8m 58s):Yeah. Or were you gonna say that?1 (1h 8m 59s):I was gonna say that. And also that like, his account, So I have suffered, you know, from panic attacks and anxiety disorder and his journey through that and with that has given me so much hope as a artist because he was one of the first people I knew, especially from snl, especially from comedy, to say, I was struggling with this and this is how I dealt with it. So it didn't totally destroy my life. And he could have chosen to be like, I'm having panic attacks on set at Saturday Live. I'm done, I'm done. But he worked through it and now is doing all of this. So it gives me a lot of hope. So if you talk to him, tell him there's a late, an anxious lady that really feels like I can, I can really reclaim myself as an artist and even maybe thrive through the anxiety.4 (1h 9m 50s):No, I, I, I so appreciate that, Jen. I really do. You know, I have dealt with panic attacks over the years, you know, again, being that new kid, I was kind of predisposed to, Oh my gosh, you know, and luckily I've never had it within my art. It's always been on the other side. But the way in which Bill has navigated all of that is really truly just, you know, motivating and inspiring on so many different levels. And I think the thing that I also recognize is the fact that Bill never had aspirations to be on snl. He wanted to be a filmmaker, you know, he was editing, he was doing all these types of things and he sort of fell in backwards to groundings and, and all that kind of stuff.4 (1h 10m 38s):And somebody saw him and said, Hey, let's do it. It's sort of like he had to kind of take that detour to be able to get back to doing the kind of things that he really wanted to be doing, you know, Which is great for me because I look at like, my time at Disney, okay? I never would've imagined that that brief time at Disney would've been able to fuel me in that it brought back into my life to allow me to direct a film about one of their performers 20 years later.1 (1h 11m 6s):It's a, your story. I'm so glad you came on because your story is a story about the, the consistent inconsistencies and the detours that aren't really detours. And for me, like just being like, I'm just knowing now going into into meetings, being a former therapist for felons. Like that is the thing that people are really interested in. And I
We talk to Wicked's own Elphaba, Jackie Burns!FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):0 (2s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. How I've missed you. I've missed talking to you boss. And I took quite a number of weeks off. Well, I did. She, she actually continued to record for at least one week while I was gone. And she's got a great interview. We've got a great interview coming up. She talked to Jackie burns, little Jackie burns on Broadway, wicked playing Elphaba. No big deal. Actually. She has a big deal and she's great. And so were all of you. I am heartened because even though we've taken all this time off, we've continued to grow our listenership.0 (47s):So thank you to you for listening, for continuing to listen for being a first-time listener. If you are thank you for being here, it's a privilege actually, to be able to have a platform to speak one's mind is truly a privilege. And one, I hope we do right by. We're going to be right back into the swing of things with interviews, regular weekly interviews in the fall. So stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, please enjoy this interview with Jackie burns and I'm Gina Kalichi3 (1m 34s):To theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.0 (1m 38s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.3 (1m 43s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (1m 56s):Here's the thing. Jackie burns. Congratulations. You survived theater school and you also survived this hellish trying to get you on. So squad quest squad cast, which we usually use is totally wonky this morning. And I was like, no, I, because I'm obsessed with you because I'd been researching you. I'm not a musical theater person, but I am one of these musical theater lovers that has so much reverie. And I think it is a sacred thing to sing and I don't really do it. And so I'm obsessed and you and I have the same birthday, October 4, 10, 4, buddy, ten four. So You're a little younger than me, five years, but that's okay.2 (2m 41s):I'm still, I'm super obsessed. And I also like I, when I watch, so I'm known for like going to high schools and middle schools and watching musical theater of people I'd have no connection to in what I was at when I was in Chicago, because I adore the art form and I don't do it, but I'm obsessed. So anyway, start, start from the beginning. You grew up in Connecticut. How, and then obviously you're a Broadway star. Are you back working in on Broadway? What's happening with you right now?5 (3m 13s):Oh my God. What is happening?2 (3m 15s):Yeah. I looked at your, I looked at all your profiles, but I want to hear it from you. Where are you post sort of pandemic. What is happening with your career? Tell us,5 (3m 27s):Oh God. Well like every musical theater theater,2 (3m 31s):Just say star, just say star, you are a star. You're a musical theater star. Like I understand for someone like I write for TV and I act sometimes, but like I musical theater people when I see them on stage, I'm like, I, the, the, the amount of brilliance it takes and dedication to, I have trouble on set, just moving my body and say, and you sing and move and dance and all the things. Okay. Okay. So what's happening with your career?5 (4m 2s):Oh my God. Well, first of all, Jen, I'm obsessed with you because I wish the rest of the world felt the same way about musical theater people because all of I'm most TV and film people are like, oh, you're not a real actor because you,2 (4m 13s):No, I would love to cast, listen, listen, what I mean? I would love to catch you and all your cohort when I do, because here's the thing. The body spatial awareness of musical theater folks, to know where they are in space translates onto set. So everyone listening, the 10,000 people that have downloaded this podcast that will continue to hire musical theater folks on television and film because they know bodies and bodies. It's not just a head people. So anyway, okay, go ahead. Sorry. I keep interrupting. I'm just like,5 (4m 46s):Nope. I love you. You're like making me feel so good about myself. But as every theater person, all we want to do is get on TV and film.2 (4m 55s):Oh, right. It's that's holds true for musical theater folks too. I assume that's where the dough is. Is that5 (5m 1s):That's where that money is. Because if you think about it, like once the theater show closes, we don't get a back end of it. So like, that's it. Your paycheck's done.2 (5m 9s):There's no residuals.5 (5m 10s):There's no residual.2 (5m 12s):Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So tell me what is happening now? You said you got your insurance back, which is5 (5m 17s):Paula that's hope. It's always helpful. I just did a new musical called a walk on the moon. That was based off the movie. No,2 (5m 27s):No,5 (5m 29s):No. I'll walk in the cloud. Like very similar. No,2 (5m 33s):She's dope. I like to5 (5m 34s):Have her with like Viggo, Mortensen, Schreiber. And when it was like back in the day, it's a good movie. Tony, Tony Goldwyn, like directed it and stuff. And he actually came and saw the musical. Did2 (5m 47s):He give you a compliment?5 (5m 49s):Yes, he was very nice. It was also like super handsome. You're like, hi,2 (5m 52s):I have heard. Yes.5 (5m 54s):You're just like, hello? Oh, you're married Ella and there's no, no, no, no, no. And my boyfriend's gonna listen to be like,2 (6m 6s):No, no, no. That's okay. That's okay.5 (6m 8s):No, he knows. He knows that I'm just joking. I'm just stroking on there. No. And then Pam gray wrote it. Who wrote the, who wrote the script as well? Yeah. And it's really good. And we just closed and they're hoping to bring it to Broadway. So fingers crossed. But the problem is, is that Broadway because it was closed for two years. All these shows have been trying to get theater. So that were like low man on the total whole cause it's like two years worth of shows trying to get to Broadway.2 (6m 37s):Correct.5 (6m 37s):So it's, and we're just like a little show rather than like a big show, so2 (6m 43s):Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But still worked. You have worked post pandemic, which is a huge thing. Okay. So tell me, were you a kid? Who did you grow up? You grew up in Connecticut. I'm assuming, were you a kid? Like you were five and you were like, just ho like you knew you could sing or what, how did that go? How does that, how do you discover that you can freaking sing?5 (7m 6s):You're so cute. I'm going to like put your pocket. Your energy is like seven. I'm going to be a best friend now.2 (7m 13s):And we'll together. We'll try to, we'll try to have a television show. That's like, I know they did it kind of with glee, but like Glebe, like less sassy and more earnest.5 (7m 23s):Yes. I am interested Jen, get2 (7m 26s):And throwing some murders because I, I write a lot of murder. Yeah.5 (7m 29s):Oh, I love that. That's what2 (7m 31s):Musical murders. Great. Okay. So you, you were a kid and how did this happen? That you were like, dude, I can be on stage and sing.5 (7m 38s):I just like always was obsessed with it. Like, so I started dancing when I was three and then, but like I used to get on like the little like Hutch, you know, like the fireplace such as my stage and sing, sing to like Michael Jackson's thriller. And I just like, yeah. And I used to, when I used to go to dance, like as I got older, we drove like 45 minutes. My mom drove me very sweet to dance class. And I used to sing along with the radio and I was convinced that the DJ could hear me. And it was just like a matter of time before I got recording contract.2 (8m 9s):Listen, here's the thing about that is that yeah. Some people might think it's wacky, but what I think is that bill that shows that somewhere, you envisioned a world where people were listening to you and were going to pay you. And that it was going to be like, even though it was just a fantasy in a car, what it shows is that you had like a sort of an expansive mind as a kid, as a lot of, not every kid is doing, most kids are like, oh, I sound terrible. And I'm never going to make it out of this Podunk town. Like that's, that's where I was at. So you, you were you're on. Okay. And then, so the dancing and singing, and then what about the acting part? Like, cause you could have just been a singer and a dancer.5 (8m 47s):Totally. You know what this is going to be, I'm going to throw so much shade and2 (8m 52s):You5 (8m 52s):Can do it2 (8m 53s):Any way. You want shade, half shade, full shade, whatever you need.5 (8m 57s):I'm going to give full shade just because I think it's funny. But when I went to my dance school, brought us to New York the first time, even though I lived in Connecticut, which is super close to New York, like I live two hours from the city. We never went to the city. So I went to the city for my first time when I was like, I was 15 years old and we went and saw Greece with like Broadway. That was my first Broadway show that I ever saw. And it was with like, kind of was like Brooke shields, like Rosie O'Donnell like crazy. But I, I was kind of not impressed. I was like, wait, I could do this. Like I, you know, I coveted Broadway is like so big. So like that, that I, I realized I was like, everyone sounded really great and who was dancing really great.5 (9m 41s):But I was not impressed with the acting at that point. For some reason, I just kind of was like, oh, it felt very pantomimed me2 (9m 49s):Like presentational.5 (9m 50s):Yes. Yeah. Yes. Which sometimes it's like, and that's when I moved to LA, I lived in LA for like a hot second cause I did wicked in LA and then I met my managers at T grin, I think. Yes.2 (10m 2s):Yes. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. Tikrit is amazing. Yes.5 (10m 5s):Yeah. He's amazing. And they were like, come move to LA and like, let's get you on TV and film. And then I moved there and then the pandemic happened and I was like, well2 (10m 12s):It was right then. Oh shit.5 (10m 14s):Yeah. I was there for like six months and it was great and it was fun. And like, but the thing that I realized is like, when I first got there and I started got into acting classes there, they were like, yo, you're a musical theater. So you only like color with like two of the crayons in your coloring box rather than all of them. Because you know, it's so far back. So you just have to like, you know, play to the back of the house and it's true. So many times you go see a show and it's like so broad and present presentation. It doesn't like bring, bring truthful. So that's2 (10m 43s):I think, no, I have to say it's like, I wish LA and I'm not, I I'm sure you went to amazing classes, but I wish so. I teach at the theater school at DePaul over zoom now that's where we went. Okay. So I teach there. And so the thing is, I wish we had a better language for saying that to people. So what, for me it is, is not, when I see musical theater actors on all it is, it's not so much for me that they have two colors. What it is is that they were exceptionally built for the, the thing they were doing. Right. And now they're doing something else. So you say like, okay, look, the dope thing about you is we know all that's in there.2 (11m 25s):It's just a matter of, of like super tweaking it and making it niche, niche nuanced. And it's a total teachable skill, which I'm sure they told you to like to oh yeah. Just is like, but the good news is I think I would, you know, I would more say you have all the colors, all the people that do musical theater have all the colors in there, or you wouldn't be able to go broad. And it's just a matter of pivoting to being a more like lasered focused situation. So anyway, all the musical theater people out there, I know we all have many all the colors, but it's true that there was also like in the arts and the late nineties where theater was Uber presentational, like, like, oh my gosh.2 (12m 8s):So you saw that and you were like, okay, I want to act, I could do this. And so then what did you do? Start taking classes or what happened as a kid?5 (12m 16s):So then that's, well, that's what I, I'm a year early from my grade. So I was going into college that next year. You know what I mean? So I just decided to just go to school for straight acting, just for acting rather than musical theater. Cause I felt like if you can sing, you can sing. Obviously you can always get better and stuff like that. But I was like, I really wanted to make sure that cause everything is from a storytelling place. Right. You know what I mean? It's like, so if, if you're a BA, if you know, so anyways, so that's why I went to2 (12m 41s):Wait a minute. So here's the thing about singing? Like, okay. So when you, how do you know like your small and you're doing like, you're standing on the hearth of your fireplace and doing your thing, but like how does one know like, oh shit, I can do this because here's my thing. Like I never tried because my sister was the singer in the family. So I just assumed that that was like, every family gets one and that was her thing later in life, look, I took classes and I'm, but I'm not like a, a hearth singer like yourself. Right. So, but how do you know, do people say to you I'm serious? Do people say to you, oh my gosh, Jackie, when you're young, do you remember people saying like, you can really fucking sing?2 (13m 24s):Not maybe not with the fucking, you know what I mean?5 (13m 26s):No, they said, yeah. They said, Jackie, you can fucking sing. And I was like six and I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. You know, what's so funny is that this now everyone's going to really know our age. When I was, when I was in elementary school, my mom made me do the, what is it called? The talent show. And I sang Peter pans. I won't grow up. She made me like various.2 (13m 56s):I love that. I'm glad she, but I also glad because that could lend itself to comedy. So that's good.5 (14m 2s):Oh. And she gave me all the like, like, like I won't grow up. I had, and she had like a thing like, oh, I don't want to wear a tie. Like she, like, all the parents made a big deal out of me and they wanted to throw a bake sale to send me to star search. It was hilarious. But then all the little girls that I was friends with all hated me after.2 (14m 23s):Well, see here's well, that5 (14m 25s):Was,2 (14m 25s):That happens. I'll I'll all the time, so. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did you go to star search first of all?5 (14m 32s):No. No. I was too busy, crying every day because I had no friends and wanting to like be homeschooled.2 (14m 37s):So yeah. Yeah. I hear you. I, I, here's the thing about that. It's like, I don't have kids and I'm never going to have kids that ship has sailed thankfully. And so I, it's interesting to think about kids and like, what is it? I wish what I wish. So what I wish never happens. And that's why I say, I wish, I wish that the kids had said, oh my gosh, Jackie, you can sing. Yes. You got attention. Teach us how to do it. Or maybe let's, let's collaborate together, but they're like six and nobody's going to fucking collaborate when they're six, maybe. But like, I wish it had been more collaborative because look, what if you had like put on a production together with the girls that, but instead they ostracize you a little bit.2 (15m 21s):So then did you keep your singing or were you like, fuck you, I'm going to sing anyway. How did that go?5 (15m 25s):Oh, and then, so then, so then I went to junior high and then I actually always said like that it was junior high and the chorus teacher made a big deal out of me. And I like won all these awards and like, got like, like whatever I got all these solos and stuff. And then the parents started complaining to the chorus teacher that why is this little girl getting all the solos and not our daughter's getting solos. So then,2 (15m 47s):Wow. So here's the thing like, look, look, look, I understand that we want things to be equal, but how about then, like if I ran in the world or even had a little part of it, this is what I would do, I would say all right. All right. All right. So Jackie can sing her ass off. She's amazing. But why don't we pivot and turn and also look at what makes little Emily and little Jane amazing. And, and, and, and bolster that instead of trying to damp in Jackie's flame, like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So like, I have this new phrase in Hollywood and people probably hate me. And when I go to meetings, I'm like, look, we have to collaborate or die.2 (16m 27s):Like that's where we're at agree. Right? Like adapt and collaborate or get the fuck out of the way. And people are like, oh, this crazy bitch. But here's the thing. The collaboration is going to be the only thing that saves us on our planet and in many ways. So wouldn't, it have been great. If they had said I should have my own POS podcast, that's just called wouldn't it have been great because I, I, I feel like I say that so much to people like, wouldn't it have been great if they, the parents had said, oh my God, like, Jackie's dope. But if Jackie can do it, that maybe means like my Susie can tap, dance her ass off or make pottery like a motherfucker. So like, let's focus on those things rather than dampening Jackie's, you know, it's so it's so such, such terrible behavior, but okay.2 (17m 10s):So junior high also, did you, were you like, oh shit. I can sing. And I'm amazing, but these people hate my guts or how did it?5 (17m 17s):Yeah. Yes. And then the caveat is when I went to high school, the junior high teacher told the high school teacher that I was like very special. And like, they should, she should put me in like senior prior. And then that teacher hated me and told me I was flat and told me, I sucked every day to the point I stopped singing. I just,2 (17m 37s):You know what that reminds me of wait, was it, was it a lady teacher? Okay. It reminds me of glee when it's a Dina and, and what's her name and you know, the one people like to talk shit about, I don't know her. Leah, Leah, Leah.5 (17m 55s):Yeah.2 (17m 55s):So they, that exact thing happens. And it's just, it's just, and maybe that's what happened. Maybe it's jealousy. Maybe it's maybe it's like, how dare someone be special? I never got to do the thing or whatever it is. It's not your, you were a kid. It was not your PR, even in high school, your problem to figure that out. So you stopped singing what? That now there's the real travesty, right?5 (18m 16s):Yeah. So then I stopped singing in choir. I would just like lip sync and she would still be like, oh, I hear is Jackie all layers, Jackie sound. It was horrible. Miss Hilton. I'll tell you to say it anyway. She was horrible to me. And then for college, you had to write, she, you had to get a letter of recommendation. And she told me she had nothing nice to say about me and she wouldn't write it. So then the guidance counselor, I had to write it for me. It was so that I could audition for schools.2 (18m 43s):Okay. That lady, that lady is whore. That's a horrible thing.5 (18m 47s):Yeah. I know. And then my brother, this is so funny. My brother, Kevin, my brother is seven years younger than me. And so when he went to high school, he had her too. And the first day of school went through and was like, Joey burns any relationship to Jackie burns. And he was like, yeah, that's my sister. And he was, she was like, yeah, she's still trying to make it on Broadway. And he was like, oh yeah, she's on Broadway in hair actually. And it shut her right up. And then all of a sudden she was like, oh, I've always knew she was going to make it. I was like,2 (19m 16s):Okay, here's the thing like, that is a sad, sad, human being. Like, if you are a teacher of youngsters and you cannot foster them in any way, then, then you, that is not the right fit for you. My friends. And also I I'm, well, it's, it's no shocker. I was a former, I'm a former therapist for, for people when they got up, I got out of prison. So like, all my bent is like on a psychological lens, but like a trauma lens, usually with this stuff. But it's like lady, I understand Ms. Whatever. Hilman, what's her name?5 (19m 50s):Hilton2 (19m 50s):Hilton. Ms. Hilton Paris Hilton. I understand if it was somehow related, I understand that you've got trauma that you haven't worked on, whatever, but that is not the children, the high high-schoolers responsibility, my friend, that is your responsibility. Just like it's my responsibility. And Jackie's responsibility to work on the shit that happened to us. So anyway, oh my God. Well, thank gosh for guidance counselors. I would have been like the guidance counselor. I would have been like,5 (20m 16s):She was the best. Yeah.2 (20m 18s):Ms. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Ms. Fitzgerald. Okay. So then you go to connect. You went to school in Connecticut, right?5 (20m 23s):Yeah. So then my parents were like, and then I, so I graduated when I was 17, so I, and I, because we're October. Yeah. And so what was the youngest class to get our drivers?2 (20m 35s):Yes, but like the best in terms of like, I got to college, I was 17. I was like, Hey, I'm young. And I'm got,5 (20m 41s):Say that same, same, but my so, but I didn't want to go to college. I was like, I'm just gonna move to New York and be a star. And my parents were like, yeah, you're 17. So no, you're not. And I was like, oh, okay. So I didn't put a lot of effort into looking into school. So I only audition for three schools, NYU boss' conservatory and Yukon. My parents were like, you should audition for the state school. Just, you know, whatever. Yeah.2 (21m 2s):It's also cheapest, cheaper, much cheaper. Right.5 (21m 5s):So, yeah. That's what, and that's what my parents said. They were like, listen, you can graduate. They're like, this is how much money we can afford. The rest is going to be loans and on you. They're like, so you're not graduating. And being a doctor like in going into like maybe a work, maybe what we think you'll work. My parents were always very supportive of me.2 (21m 22s):That's awesome.5 (21m 23s):So great. Yeah. They were never, they were, they weren't like, you need a backup plan. They were like, yeah, we think you'll make it. But they were like, you don't go. Right. So like, you know, they're like, you can graduate with a shit ton of debt or you can graduate basically debt free. And I chose to go to school debt free. I was like2 (21m 41s):So smart because let me tell you something. When the sheriff comes to your house, because you don't pay off your grad school loans, Jen Bosworth, Ramirez over here and says, you took out a private loan for your grad school in counseling psych, and you never paid it back. And so now we're here to collect. Literally the sheriff came to my house. I thought to myself, this was a poor choice that I, I did not need to take out this loan that I apparently, I mean, look, fit shit, happens for a reason. But what I'm saying is when I hear these stories, that people that chose to be debt free instead of go to Juilliard and take out $7,700,000 in debt or whatever, or in loans, I'm like, yes, because especially in this career, even if you are brilliant, and even if you are magical and are a star, you it's still, the paycheck is the paycheck right.2 (22m 29s):On Broadway. So, so good for you. Okay. So you up, well, how was your college experience, Jackie? Like, how would you say that was5 (22m 36s):Again also hilarious and the fact that, because I sang and I went to school for just straight acting, they all made fun of me for like sitting. They were like, oh, you want to do musical? That's not real acting. And I always left with laugh and be like, I'm going to actually work. So, you know,2 (22m 53s):Oh, people or any. Okay. So when I was on crew, I was on crew at DePaul theater school and we would do one musical a year, which I was never casting, but5 (23m 4s):Same thing we did one musical a year,2 (23m 6s):I guess. Were you the, I hope you were the fucking star everyone.5 (23m 9s):No. Sometimes no, because the grad actors would be the stars.2 (23m 14s):Oh my God. I bet they're kicking themselves. But anyway, okay. So I was crew and I was on makeup and I think Gina was too. And anyway, w I was on crew and I would literally, and it was into the woods, which is my favorite. And I would sit on the edge of the stage and Rapunzel, this woman, Jen, who was a Rapunzel and reposal, I would watch. And I would be like, oh my gosh. And Brockie, I think it was Brockie who did last midnight. And I just was be like, this is magic. So anyway, okay. So that was like me. And I would like miss my, my job because I would be listening and watching these musical theater people, I just would love, they were, I was like in love.2 (23m 54s):So anyway. Okay. So when you, you wouldn't be the star at Yukon5 (23m 58s):Sometimes, sometimes that like you, like, yeah. Towards the end, I started getting some starring work roles, which was great.2 (24m 4s):What was your favorite role at Yukon?5 (24m 11s):You know what I think it's, I think it was my favorite role. Cause I would never get cast in the real world was Joanna and Sweeney. Todd, because putting me in a bland blonde wig is it's a very unfortunate level. Oh, it's not good.2 (24m 24s):Okay. Okay. So you, Joanna is sweet. Sweet has a rough one.5 (24m 28s):Yeah. And also we love murder, but so like I'm not your quintessential ingenue and you know what I mean? Like, I don't have an ingenue look, you know,2 (24m 38s):You have more of like a fierce, like a fierce, like a warrior villain look.5 (24m 42s):Yeah. I'm a, I'm a Maleficent. I'm not an Elsa. You know what I mean? Like that's2 (24m 48s):Is what it is. It is what it is. I5 (24m 50s):Love it. Yeah.2 (24m 51s):I'm the crazy neighbor. I'm the crazy lady. I love it. I'll take it.5 (24m 56s):Yeah. Save. So it's like, I would never play that in the real world. So I loved that because it was a chance for me. Cause I never get to the icing can sing soprano. Nobody knows that like really well, like I actually prefer seas, but I don't ever sing soprano because,2 (25m 10s):Oh, I didn't understand that. Of course like the way the, the, the, the, the part is written. Yeah. The ingenue is probably our Sopranos.5 (25m 20s):Yeah. This is their soprano. And they're like the little blonde next door.2 (25m 23s):And the earthier grounded tone is more of the villainous to, or like the serious business tone. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. Okay. So also sweetened, I didn't know when I saw it, when I was younger, that what it was about and I saw it and I was like, what the fuck is going out? These meat pies, this is cannibalism. And it was crazy. Yeah. I love it now. Cause I write about that stuff, but like, I was like, why is this, why are they, why is he's cutting his throat? What's happening here. So anyway, I thought it was going to be like wizard of Oz. No, no, like, yeah. I didn't know. So. Okay. So you graduate and then are you like, fuck it, I'm moving to New York right away. Like how did this go?5 (26m 2s):Yeah. And then I moved out into New York to New York, with my best friend from college. We got randomly put together. She was not an actor. I didn't really hang out with any of the acting people. I like hung out with all normal people.2 (26m 13s):That's much better choice.5 (26m 16s):Yeah. And so, and even though going to school for straight acting, I wasn't around music, musical theater, people are a different energy, especially, it's a lot of, you know,2 (26m 26s):And he, you know, it's a lot, but it's also, I got to say like, it's a lot. And as I get older, I really appreciate it more because it's a way of sort of owning your space. But like when you were in high school and college and you sit in a restaurant next to a table of musical theater people, you're like, oh God, may I may lose it. So, yeah. Okay. So you graduate and you and your roommate from Yukon move into Manhattan or what, where do you go to5 (26m 50s):Yeah, we move it. Yeah. We, we lived together for 11 years actually. Yeah. Like we were like common law until I moved in with my ex-husband at the time. Like yeah. Like,2 (26m 60s):Yeah. Okay. And so what happens? You get an agent. How does this work for you? Jacqueline?5 (27m 4s):Yeah. It's so funny. So, well, I, I have such a random way. So I moved and I went to one audition.2 (27m 11s):What was it? Four, four. I5 (27m 12s):Don't even remember. I just remember I was at Chelsea studio. I don't even think that they2 (27m 17s):Do physical theater.5 (27m 18s):It was musical theater. And that was another thing because they didn't go to musical theater school. I didn't have like a2 (27m 23s):Book,5 (27m 25s):Like, so like, you know, I went to this, it was like a cattle call audition with like, you know, as non-union 8 million girls in a room2 (27m 33s):Shit. And they all had books and shit. I don't, I didn't even know what a book was. Cause I, until like last year I was like, she's like, I gotta refresh my book. I was like, yeah, just get a book, any book? And she's like, no girl. No. So, okay. So you show up there and how does it go? Are you nervous? Are you like, no, I can fucking sing. Fuck you.5 (27m 50s):No, I, I, I was there and I was waiting and everybody was wearing like the same dresses. It was like straight up like Jason, Robert Brown, you know, from last five years. And everybody's like talking about what they've done and dah, dah, dah, and their book and what they're going to sing. And I just had a panic attack and I left. I was like, Nope, I'm going. And I didn't audition for like two years. I just like lived in the city and like waitressed and like hung out with my friends. You know what I mean? It just was like a ridiculous,2 (28m 15s):Yeah. Living your life, like living your life. Like, you know what? I, I respect that. Like I, I, okay. The one, oh my God. The one audition girl I had. Oh my gosh. So I had to go to the lyric opera of Chicago because they were, they were, they were supposedly hiring non singers for like, or like just singers, but non, non opera singers for this, this thing that this big New York person was coming in the Merry widow of, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Fine. So my agent's like, you got, I'm like, you know, I don't sing. They're like, no, no. They're just looking for people that can carry a tune or like, and I'm like, okay. But you know, and she's like, no, just go it's for this non more of an acting funny part.2 (28m 59s):And I'm like, okay, dude, like just learn 12 bars. So I, I learned the Cinderella stepsister song from Rogers and Hammerstein. Like why would a one out of eight? It's like a, it's like the ridiculous. Okay. So I go and I go into the bowels of the opera, the, the lyric opera where there's no cell reception. So I can't like text anyone and be like, I'm fucking in the wrong place. What the fuck? All the women come in, Jackie and they start and I hear them warming up and they're seeing opera opera. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I go to the bathroom, no reception. I'm trying to call my agent. Like I can't do this. And I go out and they're like, Jen, you're up? And I walk in.2 (29m 40s):Yeah, I'd walk in. And I hand my music to the piano player and he, and it's all these people. I never been to a musical theater audition, let alone an opera situation. And the guy on the panel just starts and I blacked out. I don't know what happened, Jackie. I didn't, I, I, I don't know what happened. It was awful. And I, I, like, I like left my body and they walk out and I'm like, and I walk out on the corner in Chicago downtown, and it just opens up. It starts pouring on me and I start crying on the corner and I call my agent. I'm like, I don't think it went so well. And then I tell them, anyway, I have no recollection of the, the, the audition.2 (30m 24s):Like I blacked out. So listen, I understand. And I couldn't sing and you could sing. And you were like, I'm out. So, so, okay. So you left and you for two years, you were a waitress and you were, you were kicking it with your friends. And then how did you work your way? Back in5 (30m 40s):My best friend came in with a backstage. She didn't even really know what it was. And she was like, you have to go to this audition today. Or you can't like hang out tonight. And I was like, she was like, come on, you didn't come. You didn't move here to be a waitress. And I was2 (30m 52s):Like, what was it for5 (30m 54s):Tokyo Disney in Japan?2 (30m 56s):Oh,5 (30m 57s):It was hilarious. And that, and I booked it. And that was my first job.2 (30m 60s):You went to Tokyo and you were worked at Disney.5 (31m 2s):Yeah. It was so fun. And they had this Broadway review. So I did this broad, they had this Broadway review show where I sang like mama rose and Avita. And like, it was hilarious. It was so fun. Yeah. It was so fun.2 (31m 15s):Did you do that Jackie?5 (31m 17s):Because nine months.2 (31m 19s):Oh my gosh.5 (31m 20s):So we2 (31m 21s):Did that. You make good money.5 (31m 23s):Yeah. It was great money. And then, and then I met this guy climbing, Mount Fuji, this Australian guy, and like fell in love. And so then I called my best friend, Rachel, who is just like the coolest person. And I was like, let's go to Australia. I also didn't like New York when I moved there, like, and she was like, okay. So like, we moved to Australia for like a year and like hung out there. And then I w we got kicked out cause our visa ran out, you know? And then, so then we came back to New York and I still hated New York. And I was like, Ugh,2 (31m 51s):What is your waving? And wait a minute. What you hate about it? Like, what did you not like about New York when you moved there?5 (31m 57s):Non-green you talk about Connecticut and the green light. And I live literally in2 (32m 1s):The middle of the middle of that,5 (32m 2s):On the shoreline, in the middle of nowhere, live in like a lake. It's all like, you know, it's like beautiful. And I'm a very outdoorsy girl. So it was just like, it was so ugly, concrete. It was so dirty. And I just was like, I missed the outdoors, you know what I mean? I miss like green. And so I just, I didn't, I just didn't like it, you know, now I love the city, but like, I just, I did not, it took me a while, but then I came back and I was like, that still don't want to be here. So I auditioned for a cruise ship and I got this. So then I went on a cruise ship and I was supposed to be there for nine months. And then four months into the cruise ship. I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like, I don't want to be like singing to old people, sleeping in the audience. Like, you know what I mean? So2 (32m 42s):Listen, it's old people. And then me, I go to those and I'm on the cruise. And I go to the musical reviews and I am like weeping in the audience and share5 (32m 53s): yeah.2 (32m 58s):Yeah. People sleeping. Yeah. No, I was like the one person and I know they were all asleep or like, or like snoring or like maybe a coma and like I, or like dead. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best thing. But I usually was alone in that. Okay. So you got off the cruise ship for months and you were like, Nope.5 (33m 15s):Yeah. And it was hilarious. Cause they, the lady, because with the way the cruise ship worked, like if you just leave, then you have to pay out your contract, which I did not want to do. Cause you, you know, so I was like, yeah, I'm having, I was like, I'm having, I said I was having episodes of like wanting to jump, you know what I mean? Cause like not seeing land for so long is like, and it was hilarious. Cause the lady totally knew the director knew I was lying. Her name's Natalie. And she was like, Jackie, she was like, if, if you say this, you'll never work on a cruise ship again, like you'll never get to come. And I was like, I'm okay with that.2 (33m 48s):So you got off.5 (33m 51s):So then I got off and2 (33m 53s):It's like a, it's like a psychological discharge kind of a5 (33m 55s):Situation. They don't want you to jump.2 (33m 58s):No, no, they don't want that.5 (33m 60s):No. And so then I'm moved back to the city and I was like, all right, I'm gonna audition. And, and so at that point I auditioned for this smokey Joe's yeah, yeah. I'd done like five smoking joints and this vector. Yeah. This, it was like one of my favorites. This cast director was like, Steven dandle is so nice. He was like, I want to help me call me the, after my audition. He was like, I think you're super talented. I want to help you. I want to help you get an agent. And I was like, okay. I was just very lucky. And so that's how I got my first agent. And then I had an audition for hair in the park, in Shakespeare, in the park and books that, so that, and I remember calling my parents when I got that. And I was like, this is, this is like the chicken before the egg type of thing, you know?5 (34m 41s):It's like, it's like, we love you, but you've never done probably before. So we can't give you a better show. And you're like, but how do I get a Broadway show? Unless you give me a Broadway show, you know what I mean? I was like, this is a game changer. And I knew, and it was great. And that's like kind of then from there on like2 (34m 56s):Here, was that, what year was that? The hair in the park here in the park.5 (35m 1s):I want to say it was it 2007.2 (35m 4s):Okay. Okay. Amazing.5 (35m 8s):Yeah. And it was great. And then while I was doing that in the park, all the girls in my dressing room were going in for this new show called rock of ages and, and, and my agents were small at the time, so they couldn't get me. I couldn't get in. And I was like, what the F I'm so right for this show. And then finally at the end I got an audition and there was one roll left the stage swing for like the dancer tracks. And I, at that point hadn't danced since I was 17, had been like, you know, almost 10 years. And I can tell you, I blew that, see dance so bad. Like everyone was going that one way. And I was one of those where it's like, there's no way I'm getting this, but I booked it because the music director fought for me and was like, no, I really want her voice.5 (35m 50s):Like I really want her. And so thankfully2 (35m 53s):We talk a lot about on this podcast and I just talk a lot about it in my consulting and stuff with my clients. It's like, here's the thing. Like, and, and, and tell me your thoughts on this. Like my, my, you know, my new sort of vision for things is look, and the people have told me this and I never listened because I was a fucking idiot. But like, like we're booking the room, we're not booking the job. Right. We're booking the people like that. We're booking our champions. We're making fans of our work everywhere we go. And we just don't know who our champions are going to be. So you might as well, like, just really try to, what is it like you're booking the room, right?2 (36m 35s):Like we're. Yeah. So, so you had these champions early on, not that you didn't have the talent and the fucking work ethic too, but you had champions like the guy who called the casting man who called you and told you, I want to help you. And like, and, and, and then the, the musical director on rock of ages, that's amazing. And I think, and I'm trying to sort of figure out like, and what are your thoughts on Why people want to champion certain people? Is it because that, I guess it's a leading question. What I think is that people are decent humans and they want to champion other decent humans, not just the talented voice or the stunning person, but like the decency inside the human something comes through.2 (37m 23s):Do you think that's, that has any validity to it or am I crazy?5 (37m 27s):No, I do think like you onset or in a, in a, in rehearsal, you're with these people for so many hours, if the person is talented, but they suck as a human, like who wants to be suck on sets with 16 hours or in a rehearsal room for eight hours? You know what I mean? Like,2 (37m 44s):I feel like you are one of those. And I would say yes, because I'm talking to you and I'm good with, I know people, but like what, what do you think it is about you? Like, I'm always talking about this to famous people and to stars and to like, what do you think it is about you that people want to work with?5 (38m 4s):I'm very I'm game to do anything. Like I I've no ego.2 (38m 9s):You're curious. You're humble. You have fond. It sounds like you have fun. You like that?5 (38m 15s):Yes. I think my biggest fault, like is that I am humble to a fault. So therefore I think we tell people how to treat us. So sometimes my humility will come across as a lack of confidence. And that's the problem. Cause you know, it's like, it's a lot of money there. Producers are putting on your shoulders and the person that comes in with the confidence that like, Hey, I'm amazing.2 (38m 39s):Let me tell you something. I'm five years older than you. And I'm just getting it. So I now can walk into a room and first excuse my language, but now I can walk into a room and I can swing my Dick. Yeah. I know I have done the work. I have seen what's out there and I know what I have to contribute and I'm also not. But I spent, and if you listen to it all in the podcast, you know, both Gina and I, we spent our twenties and even my thirties going pick me, choose me, love me on some level. Even if I wasn't saying that it was coming out somehow in rooms. Right. So nobody wants that.2 (39m 20s):Right? Like nobody, that's not, it's not even something it's not even about attractiveness. It's like not even attractive in like a human way. Right? Like in a working relationship kind of way. So now I walk in and I'm like, it's not that. And I think also like, and people say this all the time, like people mistake, humbleness for weakness all the time, but there's also something in us that's projecting this sort of smallness. Even if we're not saying it until now, like it took me until 40, like whatever to say, oh fuck, no, I've seen what's out there. And I know I belong and it's not constant. So do you feel like you're coming into that?5 (40m 1s):Yeah. I think that, I feel like I had figured it out like two years before the pandemic. I really kind of, you know what it was for me. I stood by for Idina Menzel and this show called if then on Broadway. And it was the height of her career. It was when frozen came out and she was on the Oscars. And like everybody she's like, you know, everyone was obsessed with her. They were coming to see her specifically in the show. They weren't coming to see the show. They were coming to see her standing by for her people were viscerally angry when I was on, you know what I mean? Because you know, they came to see like, people have flown in from me. I had this British woman yell at me because like she had flown in from England and to see a Dina and I was on and I was like, I'm sorry, like it's not my fault.5 (40m 45s):You know what I mean? Like, you know, so, but that gave me the comp and I had to like win the audience over, like, you know what I mean?2 (40m 54s):So they don't throw things at you, right?5 (40m 56s):Yeah. Like you could feel the shift. There was a song called what the fuck? And like, I always knew. I'd like, that's like, when I would get the audience, that's your2 (41m 3s):Side5 (41m 3s):Where they'd be like, okay, like it's not a Deena. Like, she's2 (41m 6s):Awesome.5 (41m 7s):But this girl, like, it's not like a terrible name. Right. You know what I mean? Like,2 (41m 12s):But that help, we can't help. But like this lady.5 (41m 14s):Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like she's at least like, not bad. So that gave me the confidence. Like I had gotten to the place where I was like, ma I believed in myself because it had to, because nobody else did. Right. So I had to like, be like, okay. And that's, I was in a really good place. And the same thing, like when I moved to LA, like I was doing really well, like getting into like producer session callbacks for like service. Like you don't get like, great. And then the pandemic happened and I'm slowly getting my mojo back. Because like, after having that two years, almost three years of like living in this void, this vacuum of self-tapes where you don't know what's going on, you know, like there's no creativity.2 (41m 51s):Yes.5 (41m 52s):That I'm slowly being like, okay, I do know what I'm doing.2 (41m 57s):Can you tell Tega right. Yes. I see you. And maybe I'll listen to this, send it to them. I feel like if I were an Tikosyn, you'd be like, okay, crazy bitch. You don't know what you're doing, but listen, if I were marketing, you I'd be like, she is the next Rene Russo meets. And I haven't figured out the meats part, but Like, I always have a meats, you know? And it's going to be someone, a little weirder. You know what I mean? Like my cause I always skew weird. So when I, so like, you are like, I can see it, but oh, you're the next Rene Russo. But with a fucking voice, how about that? That's how I would pitch you pitch you with a fucking voice to make the gods weep.2 (42m 38s):That's how I would pitch not a manager, but you know, and I haven't actually heard you sing, although you sang a little bit in, I write in this tape, I can tell, you can tell like musical theater and like people could really sing, even when they're like joking around. It's like, wow, the rest of us are like, what the fuck was that? When I mess around, I'm like, man, you're like, oh, it was just like a little bit like, whoa, what the fuck? So anyway, the point is, you're brilliant. And I could totally, I could see you being like the next bad-ass Rene Russo type. Who's like, you know, in the Thomas crown affair, like that kind of thing. That's how I would T grim5 (43m 14s):T grin. Listen, I tell him, tell him,2 (43m 16s):Tell him. And he's gonna be like, oh, that crazy bitch. So, okay. The thing is now. So we have about 10 minutes left and I want to focus on like, what are your dreams? Like, where do you want to be? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go?5 (43m 31s):So many good questions. I mean, I want to originate. I really just want to be originating roles. Okay.2 (43m 37s):Okay. Tell me more about what that means. Like, I don't even, we don't talk like that in Hollywood. So what does that mean?5 (43m 42s):Well, like, cause you know, Broadway shows, there's like a lot of long running shows, but like originated wicked. So they wrote the show for her. You know what I mean?2 (43m 52s):Okay. So this is great to know because a lot of us don't know this. Okay. So they write for the people. She did not audition for that or she did5 (44m 2s):No, she, no, she auditioned, but then once she got it. Yeah. So it's like all of a sudden if like, oh, you know, like,2 (44m 10s):Okay, I am that's okay. I have a dog I'm at my office, but I have a crazy dog named Doris. Who's insane. So don't worry.5 (44m 18s):I have a puppy. And she's like, she's hit her like, oh yeah. I've been2 (44m 22s):Grab her.5 (44m 24s):Can you come over here please? No. Okay. So yeah like, like with, if then they like, you know, like they changed so many keys for her to like find what is good for her, you know what I know? So that way this is done, but so, you know, I want to originate. I want to be at a place where I'm not replacing, you know, I want to be originating. So that way2 (44m 51s):Originating roles on Broadway.5 (44m 54s):Yes. And I really want to get into TV and film. I like want to be doing2 (44m 57s):So. So yeah. And I don't think there's any reason why not. And it's starting to pick up again. So like I would just put it out there that I, if I were you, I would give I'm giving you totally unsolicited advice To LA for another try another six months out here. And I feel like it's different. What I feel in LA right now. And it's why I moved from Chicago is that there is an expansiveness in Los Angeles that look, it can be full of garbage, of course. But there is an expansiveness and the people I'm meeting are like, especially the younger folks are like creating massive amounts of art and content.2 (45m 40s):And even I'm seeing theater out here and it's amazing. And also film and TV. So all I would say is, I think we're in an age where I, it does feel like in LA a lot of things and people listening like old, old timers listening are probably like, oh, shut up. But like, I do feel like we are coming to the end of where it's oversaturated with content from streamers and people are like, no, no, no, we don't need more. What we need is like very specific shows and movies that are, I think we're good. We're contracting a little bit, which is not bad. So it's going to be more for me anyway, like gritty, heartfelt, smaller stories, which I fucking adore.2 (46m 23s):So all I'm saying is come to LA and we'll be friends. That's what I'm saying, Come to my office and we can hang out and do all the things. But anyway, okay. So you want to do film and TV? Like what kind of roles? Like if I said to you, okay, magic wand. Here you go. Jackie, what kind of roles are you? I know you're like, so game to play anything, but like where do you think you'd really shine in television and film?5 (46m 48s):I think I'd really, that's a good, such a good, really good question. I think I am more of a, like of a quirkier than most people think I am. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of people, especially like when I straightened my hair and like, they're like, oh, you're like a sexy, like, you know, and I'm like, I'm really kind of goofy and quirky.2 (47m 9s):Yeah. You're like more of an ally McBeal than a like Gina Gershon. Bad-ass like that you have a more quirky quirkiness to it.5 (47m 18s):Yes. And because I looked the way I looked people, I was just thinking about baddest, but I have a softness about me that I can't get rid of. Like I did just, there just is I, and so I am like the funny, but like also I'm going to tell you the truth. Cause I do have like, but in a, not in a, like, I'm going to cut your throat kind of way.2 (47m 38s):It's not aggressive. It's yeah. It's more like Ernest than that. There is an earnest quality.5 (47m 45s):Yeah. So I'm that? I just think like, you know, the best friend that's going to keep it real, but also as kind of a shit show and like, yeah,2 (47m 51s):Yeah, yeah. It's reminds me of like, you could, you could play a lot of things, but like you could play the partner of someone on television who like, who like keeps their partner in line, but it's also funny and sassy, but like is the, is the true north to somebody right. And earnest true north that's totally.5 (48m 15s):Yeah. Yes.2 (48m 17s):I feel like I should have a podcast where people come on and I like help market them.5 (48m 21s):I would, yes. I think that people wouldn't2 (48m 24s):Malarious, I'd be like, you're a real kind of Mike Shannon meats, you know, I don't know, John C. Riley type with a side of Ben Affleck or something like that. But anyway. Yeah. So, okay. So you want to do that and then are you auditioning right now for, is there what's happening on Broadway? What's happening off Broadway that you, that are you excited about? Anything what's happening? That you're excited about? Nothing. Okay, great.5 (48m 50s):I sadly to say it's kind of been really dry. Like I haven't had much additions and it's been a little like brutal.2 (49m 0s):Okay. Good to know. I mean, I look, look, it's better to be honest because here's the thing, like if we, and it also comes across, you know, that like if people come on this podcast or like, I'm talking to someone even in a party and they're like, it's fabulous. I mean, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, I don't buy this because I just don't buy it. My bullshit meter goes off. So it's been brutal. And I have to say like, it's been a really brutal for me too, but like in a, in a, in a, across the board. And I think this is a time. I mean, we're, I'm, I'm a triple Libra. So I have sun moon rising, all Libra, which means that I'm just a bonkers, but it also means I, we, I feel that we are in a huge transition time and as systems, whether that's Broadway, Hollywood, the government, whatever you believe, whatever systems as they sort of start to falter and fall in some ways, which is scary.2 (49m 55s):Cause it's, you know, I don't know. I have my thoughts about capitalism, but like systems are failing a little bit just because of the pandemic because of life, the climate, all this stuff, those of us in positions too are called to really come stand up and say, what do I want? How can I help? How can I be of service? And what do I really want to create? So it's like a beautiful time for artists to say, look, it's brutal too, but like there's opportunity in the brutality of like, wait a minute, who do I want to collaborate with? How do I want to collaborate? What kind of art do I want to make?2 (50m 35s):And what am I willing to do to make a living? And what am I not? And mostly for me, it's been about like, who do I want to align with? Who do I want to make, have partnerships with? And that to me is more important actually than the tasks I'm doing. It's like if I go into a writer's room and the, and the showrunners are fantastic and the writers are like we're crew and a team it's like, that would be I, and I'm all, I'm like totally putting this out into the universe. So I haven't been there yet. So like, I'm pre, but like, I can imagine that that is like more important to me than the actual dialogue or writing. Do you know what I mean?5 (51m 15s):Yes. I2 (51m 16s):Will work on whatever show, if the people in charge and the team are dope as hell, it's sort of not as important, what the it's still important, but it's not like it's more for me anyway. It's more the team, right? It's the team and who gets me and who I get. And at the end of the day, am I willing to go to bat for these people? And are they willing to go to bat for me versus it's like, again, it goes back to like collaboration versus, you know, like pick me, choose me, love me. And so that's what I wish for you is like, is like you find your next team of people that are like your champions that you can champion.2 (51m 57s):And then I think the project will sort of work itself out. Do you know what I mean?5 (52m 1s):Yeah, totally.2 (52m 2s):So listen, casting, listen, listen, people, Jackie burns. Bad-ass not just musical theater star, but musical theater star. And yeah. So what else is happening? Anything else you need to say, like to your, to people listening that they must to know about you or where you are in your life in the world? Because this is like, we talk a lot about in this podcast about legacy. Like I don't have kids, so I don't know. So a lot of people can have their legacy through their children and I don't have that. And I have an asshole dog that doesn't give a shit about legacy and she's not gonna do anything for legacy. So I, my legacy is like this part of it is this podcast, which is going to be around forever until the aliens, you know, whatever.2 (52m 46s):And so, or whoever's taking over, what do you want, what do you have anything to say for posterity? That's like going to be immortalized forever on in the cloud?5 (52m 59s):I think for me, I am, it's all about like work ethic. I am such a, I never take for, I never take for granted. Like a lot of people will talk about, and it's not to say that I don't get tired and I don't get like, there aren't times where I'm like, oh God, this is brutal. But there, it never leaves me in the fact that like, anytime I get to do a show and I get stressed out about, I am definitely, I deal with my own issues with perfection. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like where, but it never leaves me that like, I am so lucky to get to do this. And I am so grateful for the audience. Like, it makes me want to cry. Like I like when people are like, oh, sometimes I go on autopilot where it's like, oh, it's the seventh show of the week. And it's like, but those people in that seven show or eights or a weekend spent so much money to come and see this show that I can't help, but give 180% every time I get out the gate because I am so appreciate.5 (53m 50s):Cause I know if they didn't come, we wouldn't have a job. And also there's like 8 million people that were up for this one role. And somehow I got it. And I'm not saying I wasn't talented enough for it because you know, we all are.2 (54m 4s):Yeah. But you got it. And it's your re there's like a responsibility and a stewardship of the, and a seriousness of the profession and the role and the, and the it's like sacred in a way. Like, it's a thing. I, I totally, I hear that. Okay.5 (54m 20s):I think it's so important. And I think it's so important to give, like, this is like, it's hilarious. Like I don't, unless I can do a certain note, like, unless if I can, if I can't take up a note consistently eight times a week, I won't do it because I don't think it's fair that like, oh, well I can do it like three times a week. So those special three peep, three shows, they get it. And then the other ones get my, like, you know, less than show, like regular show because like they all paid a crap ton of money. So like, for me, I don't know, it's a cuckoo thing. Like I'm not somebody who's like giving you a different vocal show every day, depending on how I feel. I am going to give you the, like, I want2 (54m 60s):You give your best all the time. If you're when possible. And when, and if, and you don't mess around with that, you like, don't try to manipulate what people are going to get. And I, you know, I did a solo show, which was the word, like I loved my solo show in New York, but I did a solo show about cancer. And I worked for Nick cage for years. So that's in my solo show. I have like this crazy life. I was a therapist, all the things. So yeah, I've had a crazy life, but the point is I did this solo show and one night there was one ticket sold, okay. One ticket. And I went to my friend and I was like mother fucker. And I said, I don't do I do this show for one person. And she said, listen to me, who are you not to do the show for one person?2 (55m 40s):What if that one person needs to hear what you have to say? Who are you not to do the show? And I did it. And I, I did the show and I hope they got something out of it. And I, but, but she just said like, that person needs to hear what you have to say. They, they, they need to, and who are you not to give it to them? If that's your gift to offer, you've got to give it. And I was like, oh, and it changed my sort of my idea of like what it means to be in collaboration with the audience and like it, I was like, oh right. One person matters. That matters, right? Like that matters the one person, even if it's one person that got a discount ticket in Idaho that flew it, they matter to see you in wicked or whatever.0 (56m 39s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Toxic showrunners, giving feedback, halitosis, The Taking of Pelham 123, Victory Gardens Theatre, Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Intro: Image management, Glenn Davis, King James, Odd Mom Out, Hamilton, Abbott Elementary, The Method Let Me Run This By You: Dads and pornography, Secrets of Playboy, The Girls Next Door, Stranger Things.
Intro: Nightmare, revisited. Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of Steppenwolf Theatre, Glenn Davis, about the Stratford Festival, King James, You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with Tarell Alvin McCraney, Anna D. Shapiro, Audrey Francis, Rajiv Joseph, Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI, Seagull, Downstate, regret.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Polizzi. We1 (11s):Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (16s):Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it1 (20s):All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.2 (36s):Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,1 (52s):Right? You could2 (54s):Go to,1 (54s):Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.2 (1m 32s):Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you1 (1m 50s):Only2 (1m 50s):Have to go back one generation immigrants lady1 (1m 54s):Over here.2 (1m 55s):Right?1 (1m 55s):Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.1 (2m 37s):Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.2 (3m 15s):I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.2 (4m 10s):And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.1 (4m 40s):This2 (4m 40s):Is, this is all bad.1 (4m 43s):I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.1 (5m 24s):And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.1 (6m 8s):And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.1 (6m 49s):Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a cesspool and some things are great and people are organizing. And, but some things are just, you know, a lot of people we all, as humans get, we just love to start censoring people's feelings and emotions about a tragedy.2 (7m 19s):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also that behavior is just like, I am trying to control you because I feel so out of control of myself. And I kind of like, doesn't even really register that much to me. But on Saturday I went to a rally and, you know, just like about 20 minutes from my house. And it's always a good feeling to do something when, when you feel like there's nothing to do. So that was great. And there was about a hundred people there. So that was great. And the, the person who was organizing it was a woman. So she, she literally said the very first words, but it was just to introduce this next speaker, who was a man.2 (8m 6s):And then after that was another man. And then after that was another man. So it was five men spoke in a1 (8m 11s):Row about this.2 (8m 16s):Yeah. Well, okay. So in the moment, the first person who spoke was our Senator Richard Blumenthal. Okay. That, Hey, he came here, that's pretty great. And he, and he has a very good record of voting the way that I agree with for women's rights, people's rights, human rights. So that felt okay. And then his son is also in politics, his1 (8m 45s):Son.2 (8m 46s):So then his son spoke and his son gave this speech that I could tell, like, I could tell them he did this thing. Or if like he was mimicking the cadence of how political speeches go, where you say three sentences on the fourth sentence, you, you get louder because that's when everybody's going to applaud. But then nobody applauded.1 (9m 8s):And he2 (9m 8s):Was real confused. He was real confused anyway, but by the fourth man who got up did say, I think I'm the fourth man in a row to be speaking here. You know, he was kind of at least trying to acknowledge it. And I'm of two minds because on the one hand, I think thank God that there are men in positions of power, who, who do agree with, you know, caudifying row, but at the same time, in a more like, step, take a step back way. I'm just going like, yeah, but this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem that only your voice matters.1 (9m 51s):Well, I think it, for me, it's what I call in LA, at least the giving tents to the houseless situation. So we're giving tends to it's the exact same thing. Right. We're giving tends to people that have no home. Okay. So they have shelter now. Okay. But what, what are we going to really get down to the real issue of what's happening here? So, so2 (10m 15s):Yeah. Why are they homeless and what are the services that they, okay,1 (10m 18s):Why are we not asking the big questions? And I think we, as people are asking the big questions, but the answers are so going to have to change the way the empire works, that nobody is going to, we, we're not really answering the questions. Right. So I think there's right at the, every I saw this and I don't know if this is accurate, but I saw something that the average, the empire last 250 years, and we're at 2 452 (10m 51s):Talk motherfucker. Yeah.1 (10m 54s):So, so I feel like, yeah, people are very afraid to talk about civil war. People are afraid, look, it's a scary thing. And, and, and Nope, Nope, nobody really wants that, but I don't understand where else we're headed. So, so while I don't like it, it's the same thing with the, with the response of people while I don't like that this is happening, it is happening. So I'm going to just say, okay, like, I, I, I, I am not, I don't have any face that we are interested in doing anything else, but, but leaping towards extinction.1 (11m 39s):That's how I feel like, I'm not sure what else we're going to do because I'm, I'm looking at facts and I'm looking at what's happening in, in, you know, obviously climate change wise. And I'm like, oh, we're, we're making choices. And right. And also people are probably going to be like, oh, well, there are people doing good work. And that is true. There are a lot of people doing good work. It's just seems like the people that are making decisions are the people, you know, with the most power are not doing good work are doing, I don't know what they're doing, but they're, they're, they're doing capitalism and what's best for, for, for their pocket.1 (12m 19s):And that's. Yeah.2 (12m 21s):But we, even1 (12m 22s):Though it's about money,2 (12m 23s):It's about money. And it's also about it's about money and it's about getting reelected because the, because the point of, you know, the reason that all these men's, they were all politicians and they were just, all right, it's all running for reelection. And that's the other thing is miss me with your false, like, I'm not saying to anybody on that stage had false promises, but there's quite a lot of good politicians, you know, as good as they can be, who run on these campaign promises. And they never deliver because they have a hard time, you know, getting their, their fellow senators and so forth to agree with them.2 (13m 3s):But yeah, now we're being selected out. I mean, like, there's just really no other way to look at it. And I guess I could say, I guess we deserve it.1 (13m 19s):Let me run this by you.2 (13m 27s):However, all of this doesn't mean that I don't still get involved in petty bullshit. Like I did.1 (13m 35s):Well, tell me, tell me all about that's fantastic.2 (13m 38s):We have this God damn fucking bitch of a neighbor that I, I mean, she's just the repository for my rage right now. You know, it's like, it's not really about her, but she she's, you know, she's the person who, when we first moved into this house, very friendly came over, introduced herself. We had kids similar ages, she's at our house for a while. Chatting. She leaves, she calls me 20 minutes later to, to, in an alarmed fashion to tell me that my children who at the time were six and eight or whatever it had had crossed the street without me there.2 (14m 21s):And that this was obviously going to be a big problem for me. And I, I mean, that just kind of sealed the deal. We, we tried to be friends. She, she started one of these multi-level marketing. She was selling jewelry. I bought her dumb ass jewelry, you know, and it's just been one thing after the other. And, and she's like the nosy neighbor. Who's never missing an opportunity to tell everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. And she has these two really out of control dogs that just bark constantly. And she walks them or attempts to walk them. And she, and no other dogs basically can be on the street, you know, without there being a big kerfuffle.2 (15m 7s):Now, when I'm walking my dog and I see her coming, I turn the other way a, because I really don't want to see her, but also because I don't want to go through the whole thing of my dog. Yeah. It's all thing. Right. Well, my husband doesn't avoid things like that.1 (15m 22s):Well, I've miles wouldn't even notice until it was too late, but I feel like Aaron is more like, I'm going to just walk my dog.2 (15m 30s):He's like, it's my fucking street and my dog. And we still live in an America where you're free. You're free to walk your dog. So she's walking. So he's walking the dog and she's coming towards and she's doing her usual thing. And then she said, and this was not the first time she said this. She tells him it's not really a great time to be walking your dog right now as if like she gets to go to1 (15m 54s):No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.2 (15m 58s):Well, my in-state, I really wanted to go fly into a rage over to her house. And I, luckily I didn't do that. I did go for a walk and walk by her house, both my fingers up. And I thought, well, if I saw her at my dream,1 (16m 14s):What I would say is2 (16m 15s):I tell you to take those Stella and dot necklaces and choke and hang yourself with them. But they're so cheap. All you'd get is a green net.1 (16m 23s):Yeah. You just break it. Wouldn't do the job. It wouldn't do the job. Oh my.2 (16m 31s):But in a way, you know, having these petty things is sort of life affirming right. In this weird way. It's like at the end of the day, you're just like, oh yeah, it's just, you don't like your neighbor. People sometimes don't like their neighbors. It's not as much.1 (16m 46s):What did, what did your husband say to her? Nothing.2 (16m 50s):I mean, he was just like, I I'm walking my dog. I mean, like, I think he was just so flummoxed by the whole thing. Like, is this person really trying to tell me God? Yeah. That's yeah. I think, I think he was done1 (17m 5s):The audacity. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I hate, I hate her already. And I also think the real issue is fucking, you feel terrible that you cannot control your dogs and you have it done with the rest of us dumb, but responsible fuckers have done, which is train our goddamn dogs. Doris, right now I'm paying an, a great amount of money. So she can go to fucking Frenchie school so that when she sees2 (17m 35s):Her all about1 (17m 37s):God, so she doesn't jump on people and she doesn't do well. Okay. So when we Doris is, so I did not understand that when even, okay. So Frenchies are bred to be completely dependent on humans. Okay. So like, meaning back in the day, they're not the kind of dog that's bred to go out on their own. They're highly dependent. They're like needy fucking things. Right. Okay. Great. But that doesn't mean what I'm understanding is they still need pack training because the pack, we are not their pack. It's so funny. Like I am not a dog and miles is not a dog. We don't understand dog.1 (18m 18s):And so even these like sort of boot, you know, like fancy bougie dogs need pack training, which I was so Cesar Milan always says like, you know, like Eden, these designer ass dogs need fricking socialization. And I thought that meant she just needed to be around people. And like, she needs to be around dogs. That will correct her. And so there is this guy who's obsessed with dogs that lives in, in the miracle mile. I thought it was west Hollywood. I don't know where I am. Anytime I cross over I'm like anywhere is away from Pasadena. So my friend was like, listen, there's something called the school. And they also have like Frenchie Fridays and they ha it's like a very Frenchie centric dog school.1 (19m 6s):And they bring in this trainer, that's a protege of Cesar Milan, but everyone can say their approach. I could say I'm a protege of Cesar Milan probably. But anyway, and they play Tibetan singing bowls for the dogs and they get them to calm down and they, and it's a lot of Frenchies, there's like 10 Frenchies that go there. And so I said, all right, I'm going to give it a chance because Doris is great. She's just a tip, very typical Frenchie. And she gets very excited and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. So she pees inside and she will jump on you. And she's really mouthy still at a year. And so I was like, okay, well, like I need to, and, and she she's missing.1 (19m 48s):You can tell like, she's missing. Ideally we'd get another dog, but there's no way in hell in a one bedroom. That's this small. I would ever get another dog, especially not another Frenchie. So I was like, what, what to do, what to do. And this guy is like, that runs, this school will send you recaps of the class today in Frenchie class we learned. And then he will explain all the things that we learned. I'm not there. He's not, it's the dogs. It's like so funny. And then there's pictures. So she's doing great, but it is a schlep. It is 35 minutes. Each way. It is expensive. It is.1 (20m 28s):So what I am saying is those of us who fucking don't want to be like your neighbor and are like, you know what? I'm going to confront the fact that my dog needs some work and that whatever that we are doing miles and I isn't quite cutting it. And she's not behaving in a way that's going to make her friends like with people or with dogs. What do I do about it? I don't say to other people, it's your fault.2 (20m 52s):Somebody else's fault.1 (20m 54s):I have no goddamn money. I'm spending the money and the time.2 (20m 59s):And there you have hit upon one of the very hardest parts of parenting, which is, and you've talked about this before on the podcast, getting feedback, negative feedback about your child is so demoralizing you at once, feel embarrassed and enraged. You feel enraged with the person. You feel enraged with your kid, for With yourself, for not doing a good enough job, such that this wouldn't be happening. Yeah. It's really, really hard. And everybody has to get to the point that you have already gotten to luckily, which is okay, well, I'm this, the good news is the bad news is I'm the source of this problem.2 (21m 44s):And the good news is I'm also the solution to,1 (21m 46s):I think we don't know how to make a lot of us. We don't know how to make friends. Right? So this lady, instead of being like, oh my God, maybe I should just like, say to people, you know, like she could do so many things. People can do so many. She could send a letter to each person on the block say, look, I have these asshole dogs. I don't know what to do. If you have fucking suggestions, besides euthanizing them, let me know. I would love that. Or can you help me? Or I'm so sorry. They're assholes. I don't know what to do. I'm I'm working on it or I'm stuck. Just let people know. And then you make friends. And then when you walk down the street, people are gonna be like, oh, there's those crazy asshole dogs.1 (22m 29s):Just she's she's trying at least,2 (22m 31s):Right. Yes. There is a universe in which a person has crazy dogs like that. And they allow, first of all, they allow for the rehab. They allow us to acknowledge the reality that it's your crazy dog. I mean, that's, that's the other thing I feel like, I feel like we're stopped at level one, which is she won't acknowledge that her dogs are crazy level two. She won't do something about it. You know,1 (22m 59s):I'd like level one. It's like level one is like you were saying it like it takes some, you got to just really get to the point of being accepted, having acceptance that what things are going to go horribly wrong. And a lot of times it's your fault in some way. And a lot of times it isn't, but they still go wrong. And like, I just, I was talking about this a lot yesterday choice points when we're at choice points. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, that, you know, people choose bad things to happen to them. I think that's garbage people choose to be with, you know, houseless, garbage. I don't buy that. But what I do buy is I know plenty of people with inner and outer, especially outer resources that don't date.1 (23m 45s):They, they do not meat choice points with any sort of ownership and accountability. So they're just like, they don't have, they think they have no choices, but to be an asshole, it's not true. It's not true many times they're you could have my friend taken a turn neighbor, whoever politician and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, I have a choice here. So it's interesting. It's like, just because there is this sort of bullshit, a Wu movement to like over to like blame the victim. Yeah. That's true. But I think there is also a willingness to excuse behavior because people feel that people are limited.1 (24m 26s):Fuck you limited where you don't like, you know, so there's, there's a line. And I think that we, that the black and white thinking of like, you know, all good, all bad. All everyone chooses everything. It's not, it's just not the way it works. But like, yeah. So I,2 (24m 43s):No, it's not the way it works. You're so your thing recently is all about choice points. My thing is all about dissociation and, and I feel, I think I've hit on in the past. I've always said the reason I don't get along with anybody in my town is like, it's all Puritan and whatever. And that's probably true too, but there's another deeper thing. Because a lot of times I will meet somebody and I was trying to define what's the immediate thing that within seconds of talking to somebody, you can proceed. Cause you feel this is a, this is going to, this might go in a good direction for me it's they don't seem completely dissociated.2 (25m 25s):Right. And people are going to hear that and think, I mean, a bunch of people with multiple personalities, that's not what I1 (25m 31s):Mean. Yeah.2 (25m 34s):I really just mean the kind of person who says, for example, you know, my dogs are not crazy. My dogs are not crazy and my dogs are not crazy or my life is not in shambles. My marriages I'm shambles. My kids are not whatever, like whatever it is, there's a lot of, you know, people have to do so much work to hold up. These myths about themselves and their families and their lives. And I get it because to be in touch with the reality of one's life or one situation is completely overwhelmed.1 (26m 7s):So painful too. It's so painful.2 (26m 11s):It's so painful. But so, but like I need, in order to have a thing with a human, I need to be able to look at them and have some vague semblance that they're not in another, on another planet now. Sometimes I get past that and I, and it's like, okay, but I still just don't like you, right. For whatever reason. But I think that's the majority of the people I encounter in life or in some type of a dissociative place. And maybe it's because of the pandemic and maybe it's because things have been a shit show for the last several years, but that w that thought really clarified for me.2 (26m 51s):Okay. Yeah. This is the, this is like the stumbling block I have with a lot of people. I have a friend right now who, I mean, she's, she's kind of a friend, but she she's one of these people, like the day we met, she started referring to me as her best friend kind of, kind of a thing. And she likes to drink a lot. And so I kind of pulled back on the relationship. And during the pandemic, I had a pretty good reason to, and after that she's been contacting me and she's just not really kind of getting the hint. So I decided to take the opportunity the last time she contacted me to say, well, you know, like things aren't really going that great, like this and this and this, no response, no response, because what she wants for me is to validate the myth that she doesn't drink too much.2 (27m 41s):And that everything is fine in her life. Right. And when I want to talk about how things are not fine, she's not interested.1 (27m 49s):Yeah. That's really a telltale sign. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that it is. Yeah. And then I take it a step further, which is in my brain, which is I get angry because I have lived, I have spent so much time, energy, sweat, and, you know, sweat equity in looking at the painful stuff that I just can't perpetuate the circus show that that it's okay.2 (28m 27s):Well, today we are talking to Glen Davis. Glenn Davis is one of the hardest working busiest people we have ever met. He is the artistic director of Steppenwolf theater in Chicago. He's just closed a production of king James, which had also been a Steppenwolf. He just closed it at the mark taper forum in Los Angeles. He has a production company with Trell, Alvin McCraney, and they've got 10 projects on the slate right now. He's a writer, he's a director, he's a performer, he's a producer. And he is an artistic director. So please enjoy not our, it was just boss, boss, his conversation with Glenn Davis.4 (29m 22s):I gave it to my office. You survive theater school, but mostly I want to ask what's happening with you right now. Tell me what are you doing and what are you feeling and how are you today?5 (29m 34s):Right now? I am doing great. I am doing a play here at, in LA, at the mark taper forum called king James. We have been here for over a month and we closed this Sunday.4 (29m 50s):All right. So here's my question to you. We talked to our first attempt and it goes so well in terms of our tech, but so you went to the theater school. I just finished teaching at a theater school. I don't know if I'm going back. They have a new Dean coming in. Yeah. Who? I had a meeting who asked to have a meeting and she was lovely if you had, I'm asking this5 (30m 11s):Question.4 (30m 12s):Yes. So if you had to go back, would you have gone to a theater conservatory? Would you do it again? Would you go to a conservatory for acting training to5 (30m 24s):Theater school specifically, or just one4 (30m 26s):In general and then to the theater school specifically?5 (30m 30s):Yes. Yes. I would say at the very least, even if I didn't learn anything, I made some of my strongest friendships at the theater school.4 (30m 40s):You, you have, you have not only kept in touch, but you are thriving alongside people that you went to school with. So you would have done done it again. Okay. Favorite? What do you, what kind of art do you want to make my friend? Like, what is your, if you had, I'm asking this to all my, our guests, we just have to someone. And I said like, what are we doing here on this planet? And what kind of art do you want to make?5 (31m 6s):I guess I would say art that is impactful and challenges. Its audiences and challenges are sort of moral and ethical codes. Our identity, our idea of what we think is right or wrong in the world.4 (31m 24s):Can you say more about that?5 (31m 25s):Yeah. I did a play a few seasons ago called downstate and that this does exactly right.4 (31m 33s):Yeah. Intense. Yeah. Intense I side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, it's about people that live in like a halfway house.5 (31m 42s):Yeah. They're in a group home. It's five sex offenders who have, who have been released from prison, but into a group home. And so they have to figure out how to, you know, assimilate back into normal society. And you go into that play, you know, with your most folks have, I would imagine, have their own, very strong opinions about sex offenders, you know, pedophiles full stop, you know, and then this play the best way I can explain it is that it makes you reconsider what you think of those people when they, when they sort of visceral level, you, you go in thinking, okay, I know I don't need to explore this.5 (32m 29s):And then you do even just for, you know, this two hour play. And even if it's just a minor shift, it feels like you've gone a far way out of the way to give back maybe to the same place. But you, you know, Bruce Norris wrote this play and he talks about how he wrote the play because he wanted to, he wanted folks to challenge. He wanted to challenge the audience's ability to, to their capacity for forgiveness.4 (32m 59s):Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with the idea of who gets to be forgiven and why, and what happens when yeah. People make choices. And I think w you know, working with felons when they got out of prison, I learned that most of us well. Yeah. I, I truly believe that most of us are like one bad choice away. A lot of times from being an exact same position as my clients were in, or as the people in that player. And, and it's not as simple as we think, but, you know, I, yeah, I agree. So, okay. So you want to make that kind of art. Do you feel like you made that kind of art at the theater school at all?4 (33m 40s):Did you,5 (33m 43s):I think at the theater school, I was less concerned with making art and more concerned with managing the cut system. If we had a cut system and then, you know, just being a good actor, it was, it was primarily, primarily about self. It was less about storytelling. I didn't, I don't think I got to that place in my life career until a few, few years out of school. You do some work and you figure out it's not simply about me and how good I am in it, or you know, how much money I'm making.4 (34m 18s):Yeah. Did you, when you did the showcase, did you the show? Okay, so I was just the, the, the kids, the kiddos were just here during the showcase. There was no real showcase in person which sucked this year, but they came to LA and it brought back memories. And so I was going to ask you about your experience. Did you go to New York LA and do Chicago? Okay. What was it like for you? What material do you remember the material you did? And what was the, what was your experience of that in terms of interest reps?5 (34m 51s):I don't remember what scene I did for showcase, but I did, I did do a scene. I remember I was playing, I had a basketball at his house playing basketball at the same time. I should figure out what play that was, but I did that. And then I got, I guess, a healthy amount of interest in New York and LA, and I knew from showcase even before that, that I knew I was, I was leaving Chicago.4 (35m 18s):Okay. This is very exciting to me to, to, so you, you, w w how did you know that, like, when you went there and you did your scene and afterwards, they said, so, and so wants to meet with you or these people, like you, you just, like, I gotta get outta here, or what was the feeling like? My next move is,5 (35m 37s):Well, I was cold in Chicago, so I had just done a Chicago winter, and I wasn't, I was determined not to do another. And I think for a long time, I thought I'd go to New York. What happened was I ended up getting a, managed, signing with a manager here in LA, right out of showcase, and then decided, okay, I'm going to go to LA. And then I booked this other job. It took me to Canada for two years, but I kept my LA manager. And then I moved to LA right after this thing called the Stratford festival.4 (36m 10s):Of course. Yeah. Two years. Yeah. Holy shit. So you went right out of school to Canada. Yeah. Do you, how was that?5 (36m 20s):It was great. It was, it was this sort of things that I didn't anticipate I'd ever do. I didn't even know where Stratford was when I got the job. And so I went into, it was called the Birmingham conservatory for classical theater training at Stratford festival. And so I go up and I studied for 20 weeks in the winter and in Stratford, Ontario. And then you go into the season as an actor. So I was up there for two years4 (36m 52s):And then, okay. So you're doing that for two years where you kept your manager and then what happens after Canada5 (36m 58s):Moved to LA4 (36m 59s):You just straight up moved here? Yup. Okay. And then, and then you back and forth, or you were here for a while. What years are your year here? Youngster. What year was this? Not that long ago.5 (37m 8s):I moved to LA and then I, I was, I think I did submit two thousands. Then I went to New York to do a play. I want to say something like 2008. And then from then on, I started going back and forth between New York and LA. I did that for probably brought till about 2000, 2014, something like that.4 (37m 44s):And then what happened? I'm fascinated. You, you have a story that I don't for theater school grads, that this doesn't usually happen. So usually what we notice is you do the showcase, you pick a place and you stay there for a long time, but you've been moving around. So then, okay. So after you did back and forth, how did you land? I mean,5 (38m 4s):Well, I was living in LA. I had done a play in New York, and so I thought to myself, I wanted to be able to go back and forth. So I still kept my, my home in LA, I guess I call it. And I would just, I got a roommate in New York and I would just go back and forth between the two. And so I did a play in New York in 2008, then I did another in 2011. And, and then I think I will probably let that place go. New York around 2014.4 (38m 38s):Yeah. And then since then, I've just5 (38m 40s):Been, then I was in LA and then I D I went back to Chicago in 2013 to do a play at Steppenwolf. And then I got a place in Chicago. So I replaced my place in New York with a place in Chicago. And I would just go back and forth between Chicago and LA.4 (38m 57s):Okay. So now, now you run the joint with, with a bunch of, with Audrey and probably some help, some other step waltz. W why do you take, why did you take that on, like, what, what, what, what happened there that you were like, this is the next thing I'm like, fascinated by the choices people make. And this was the same with my clients and the same with my characters. I write, like, how does that happen when you're going back and forth from New York or to mostly now, Chicago and LA. Yeah. And then you're like, you're, you were obviously an ensemble member I'm assuming first. Okay. And then what, how does that happen? That, you5 (39m 36s):Know, wow. When I was made ensemble, remember in 2017, I had just done another play a step one side. I think I did like4 (39m 44s):About, you got older.5 (39m 46s):Yeah. You got older. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And so I did another play called the Christians and had, had a great time. And after that, I, I had started to the other part of my life. I'm a producer in television and film. So I started producing and then it just sort of became natural to me, for me to want to sort of guide projects to fruition. And so when the Steppenwolf job came up and R D Shapiro who brought me into the company announced that she was leaving and the company did a, that the company has a self-imposed mandate that an ensemble member always be the artistic director.4 (40m 31s):I did not know that.5 (40m 32s):Okay. It's only ever been on ensemble. So we did a search within the company and myself and Audrey Francis, who, you know, we got the most votes. And so,4 (40m 44s):Yeah.5 (40m 44s):Yeah. The ensemble bows down, sambal chooses the ensemble, the artistic director.4 (40m 50s):I did not know this. Okay. This is very fascinating to me. Okay. So you got the most votes and why two people, like, did they, has it ever been to at the same time,5 (41m 0s):If it has there's rumors that it was two before this there's only ever been two in a formalized setting, formalized situation. And so we decided to do it together because it's such a huge job. And both of us are actors. Yeah. Audrey is also a director. I am a producer. And so we thought, you know, to do this job, you know, most times it's directors, because, you know, it affords them the ability to still have their career outside of it for an actor. If you're running the theater. And like right now, I'm in Los Angeles doing king James.5 (41m 41s):Yeah. Then it, it, who, who do, who does staff go to? Who, who, who sort of running, steering the ship while I'm away or the counterpart is away. So we said, okay, if there's two of us that we can sort of outline in any given year that as long as one of us is on campus, one of us is steering the ship to the garden at any given time. Then there's a version of the second work. So we, we, we decided together that we would, we would pitch ourselves together instead of one of us doing it. And so the ensemble loved it and the board thought it was a great idea. And so they contracted both of us. And so here we are.4 (42m 22s):And does it go on forever and ever until you get sick of it,5 (42m 26s):We have to let them know we do, we do contracts. And so before the contract ends, you let them know, Hey, I want to stay on it, or I want to,4 (42m 36s):How's it going?5 (42m 37s):It's going4 (42m 38s):Right. Do you like it?5 (42m 40s):I love it. Is it4 (42m 40s):Hard?5 (42m 41s):Oh yeah. Yeah. It's hard.4 (42m 43s):It's fulfilling.5 (42m 45s):Very,4 (42m 45s):Yeah. Okay. Do you have any time to do anything? Do you, do you, you must because you're here. So you have, but you do a lot of things. So I guess my next question is how do you do a lot of things and managed to not lose your mind?5 (43m 0s):What I would say that I'm a big planner. I have a lot of help. Obviously. I have assistance. I partners, turtle album McCraney, who my, I wasn't mentioning before4 (43m 15s):That is to school together,5 (43m 17s):Went to school together. Yeah. And he is my best friend in the world. Also my producing partner,4 (43m 23s):Brilliant boat. But yeah, you're both very brilliant human.5 (43m 26s):Thank you. I appreciate that. And so we have a production company based here in LA and we're in an overall deal at universal. And so we, we, that's a partnership and we have a team, a very strong team that we produce television and film. And then at Steppenwolf, I have Audrey, who's the best partner one can ask for. And we, we, we together manage through all the, the things that are going on and step off. So, and then, you know, when I'm going to do a play, yeah. I'm constantly in communication with her constantly communication with Tarell about all the things that we're doing.4 (44m 7s):Oh my God. So I guess the communication is, is really the key. Okay. My question is, what would you say to like the students and my young students who are like, what kind of world am I walking into? What, in the entertainment industry, how can I take ownership over my career? What the fuck do I do? I always like to be whatever you're doing, something's going right in your career. So, which is great. And I'm not saying it doesn't take a tremendous amount of work, but I'm also saying, is there any tips or like how to manage this life? You've graduated. You've just, like you said, like, you want to, you want to make it, you want to, you, you want to earn money, want to pay the rent and still make good art.4 (44m 56s):How the fuck do you do that?5 (45m 0s):Well, you're saying w what advice I would give. Right. I would say the, one of the first questions you asked was, you know, LA or Chicago, or, you know, I would say pick the place that you'd like to live. Like a lot of times people go, oh, I got to go to LA. If I want a career, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be in London, you'll be in Toronto. You can be in new Orleans, you can Chicago. So I would Fe I would say, go to the place that makes you happiest, makes you feel like the best version of yourself or some approximation of it. And then sort of sit down. I always look at my life in terms of five-year goals and plans.5 (45m 40s):What do I want, what I want my life to look like in the next five years. And so sit down and make a plan. If that's to be a series regular on a TV show, then put all of your efforts towards that. If it's to be, you know, a Broadway actor, then, you know, you know, there's a path to that, presumably. So I would say, make a plan and take some risks. You know, they might not always be comfortable, but you go out and you say, at least for, at least for me, I've, I've learned the most about myself. And I really taken a risk. And lastly, I would say, particularly for actors become, you know, did this happen by happenstance with me, but my best friend in the world is a writer and a very accomplished yeah,4 (46m 28s):Yeah. Like not, yeah, no slouch like a brilliant one of the most brilliant. Yeah.5 (46m 33s):And, and I've because of that, I've, you know, our partnership I've been in almost every one of his plays I've, we've created together. He's making things for me. I would say, if you can find a creative partner partnership or ships, you know, Rajiv, Joseph is another friend of mine who we're very close friends, we've done two plays together. Now we're doing TV shows together. Like find those folks that you're like, I just like being in partnership with you. And let's, you know, it might take five, 10 years to create something together, but let's start the conversation.4 (47m 9s):Did you know that immediately at school, that these folks were going to, cause there's also, isn't there a woman that you also are close with, that you met?5 (47m 17s):Yeah. Alana arenas is my other best tool in a lot of my two best friends in the world. Okay.4 (47m 21s):Okay. So did you know at the, at school, at the theater school where you immediately, like, I ha I love these books and I want to make art with them, or how did5 (47m 30s):That? No, I don't. I don't think cause Tara wasn't a writer at the time. He was, he was an actor and a theater school a year ahead of me and Atlanta was two years ahead of me. And, but they just, they were home. I met them and I just said, oh, you're my person. And so those two have been in my life for the last, you know, 20 however many years. And those are proud. I've worked with them several times over and over. They're both supremely talented Alana was on Tyrrell's TV show called David makes man. And she was amazing in it. So I think that, yeah, I just found them as people interesting and you know, beautiful people inside and out and they just so happen to be, you know, supremely talented, but I didn't go into it looking for them like, who do I like?5 (48m 21s):You know? So that's, that's essentially what it was. You.4 (48m 25s):Okay. What kind of, you said you want to make art, like, do you, is it more that the medium doesn't matter as much as the story in terms of TV versus being in a F or working on films or working on television? Or what, what is, do you have a favorite or are you just open to telling good stories, whatever form it takes? Are you that kind of a,5 (48m 46s):Yeah, I think it's the, the ladder. They're very different forms to work in as an actor. I'm doing a play right now, obviously. Yeah. I get a fulfillment that I don't get in producing television and film, but also in television and film, I get a, a fulfillment there as well, where I'm the, I have, my voice means is, is hugely meaningful in the room. If it's not me making the final decision on something, you know, very close to the, the, the folks in the room who are making those final decisions. So as an actor, you're, you're coming to be a cog in a wheel, you know, or you're there to service the story in film and TV as a producer, at least you're, you're get the engine you're, you're providing the platform or the, the landscape for artists to come in and tell their stories.5 (49m 44s):So it's a very different fulfillment that, you know, being in one in the other. And so I love them, both. Yeah. Theater is, is where I come from from first fell in love with storytelling and the art and the craft.4 (49m 58s):W I can't remember. I know that your family is not, it's more of a political family, right? Yeah.5 (50m 2s):And in terms of politics in Chicago.4 (50m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. So, but not so not theater so much. Okay. And then how did you end up doing theater since you said theaters5 (50m 12s):You're I was on the basketball team in high school. That's right.4 (50m 14s):Then you realized,5 (50m 16s):Yeah. Yeah. I realized I just audition audition for a play randomly. And I thought, oh wow, this is, I can do this. And so I gave up sports or basketball and she said, my, I thought, I thought at the time I had a burgeoning basketball career.4 (50m 31s):But if you did, though, you must have had a co I mean, what you were, you said you loved it and you were good at it. You just didn't think you were good enough.5 (50m 41s):Yeah. I don't even think at the time I knew if I was good enough. And I probably had all the bravado that any young4 (50m 47s):Men5 (50m 48s):That I could go to the NBA, but I just fell in love with theater. I fell in love with the art form and, you know, later studying it at DePaul at other places, setting Shakespeare. I just thought I can do this for the rest of my life. So.4 (51m 6s):Oh. And you knew it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So you knew it. Okay. And then if you had to like, like the next thing you want to do, like you have, are you doing exactly? I talked to people sometimes and they're doing exactly what they want to do, or they're excited. Or sometimes they're like, no, I want to pivot. And in a year, like we talk about, you talked about five years, so what's your five-year, what do you want to do in five years in your five-year plan? Do you have any grant?5 (51m 33s):Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of my artistic life right now is stepping up is I'm leading the company. There are some things that industry-wide, that I would love to see changed.4 (51m 46s):I want to know what they are,5 (51m 48s):Where there's a, there's a long list4 (51m 50s):With one5 (51m 54s):More pay equity for, for people in the arts theater theater specifically. There's, there's just not, you know, you can't, most of us cannot live, let alone thrive on a theater salary. So we'd love to change that diversity equity inclusion is very important to me getting more people involved, who don't, who historically have not been a part of the theater community. I think doing king James has been sort of eye opening for me because so many people have come because they love basketball. They love LeBron, or they love sports.5 (52m 35s):And now they're, you know, they're coming to a play and they go with some of the first play I've ever been to. And I loved it. So I think there's a lot, a lot of work there to do.4 (52m 46s):And do you feel like the word beat with the pandemic and everything? Have you, have you been able to start diet? Like, are you diving in now or are you, were you in the, when did you start take over you and Andre?5 (52m 60s):Our first day was as artistic director was September 1st, 2021.4 (53m 7s):Yeah. Okay. And now what's happening? The seagull happened? No.5 (53m 13s):Yeah, we just, we just closed the seagull. It was, it was our first theater in the,4 (53m 19s):The new spaces. Is it gorgeous?5 (53m 22s):Or it's, it's, it's all I walk into it and I'm just blown away. And I actually get very excited about one day being able to perform in that theater. But it's this beautiful in the round space that is state of the art, these wonderfully resonant acoustics. It is. Yeah. It's, it's a playground. I love that. I love that space, but yeah, we just opened our first play. We opened, there was the seagull, an adaptation of checkoffs, the seagull by Yassin playing golf and he wrote and directed it and it, it was fantastic.5 (54m 3s):And yeah. So now that now that theater is open,4 (54m 7s):Are you, do you have any things exciting that are probably a million things that are happening, but like television or film wise or for you, or, oh yeah. Or your company or anything that, you know, what's happening.5 (54m 21s):We have step move, just announced this new season. So the false will start, well, we'll have that season, beginning, this fall that we're excited about. So the first season that Audra and I were able to curate ourselves, so that's exciting.4 (54m 39s):What does that mean? Like you're in charge. Like you have to plan the whole shit or like, so like, if you have all the plays out there, you have a literary person I'm sure. And they say, okay, this is all on the table. Yeah. And then you read them all and then does lively debate ensued what happened? Okay.5 (54m 57s):We have an artistic team that we go back and forth over place and we decide, you know, obviously it's4 (55m 4s):No.5 (55m 5s):Yeah. We announced our season April, I think. Okay.4 (55m 8s):What are you super excited? I'm married. You're probably out. So a little bit more. Okay. Do we know if you are going to be in them? Can5 (55m 15s):You be, or you4 (55m 17s):Can't. Okay.5 (55m 18s):I, I don't know just yet. I just don't know, like4 (55m 24s):Deciding.5 (55m 25s):Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.4 (55m 27s):That's going to be exciting and you're playing closes. And then when you leave here to go back to Chicago,5 (55m 32s):I leave here I go on vacation and then I'll go back to Chicago. And then I do a play in the fall called well downstate. Oh yeah. We do that in New York in the fall. And then we have Trella and I have 10 TV series that are in development. Yeah. Yeah.4 (55m 55s):Totally crap. Congratulations.5 (55m 58s):Very much. So4 (55m 60s):Tenancy develop, I guess that's how it works. Wow. Wow. Good for you.5 (56m 5s):So what looks to go into production on one later this year? And yeah, we're pitching shows always. And so that's, most of my days are, you know, pitching shows, working on development with our executives at universal and managing the theater. So picking plays really4 (56m 26s):Plays very full5 (56m 28s):Life and doing a play.4 (56m 29s):Do you love your life?5 (56m 31s):Yeah, I love it. Wow.4 (56m 32s):Okay. Do you re we, we were just had I'm in a book club and we were talking about regret. Do you believe in, what's your idea when someone says to you, what do you think about regrets? Do you have them, do you think it's bullshit? Do you think that regret is good? Because it makes us, we had a lively discussion about regret the other night here at the office.5 (56m 51s):What was the consensus?4 (56m 52s):Well, some people are like, no, there's no such thing as regret because in the moment you do the best you can with the choices you have. But I actually think regret has been helpful for me because things like I regret that I didn't do certain things. It's not about judgment for me. It's more about like, I'm S maybe it's sadness. I don't know. I regret that, like my mom and I never talked about X before she passed. Right. Or, but I don't say, and I'm an asshole because of that. I just say, I regret that. But other people are saying, no, no regrets, like live your life with no regrets. I don't know. Where do you fall on this? I don't know.5 (57m 28s):I think that, I think for all honest with ourselves, there, there are things that may be in our past that we wrapped that we maybe wish we had not done done in that same way. That's the sort of notion of a regret. You know, you wish you made a different choice to varying degrees, but I think that at least when most people say, because I understand the notion of, Hey, there's no regrets. You, you had to make the choice you were going to make to be the person that you go to. You're going to be, I get it. So I think that, I think more to the point for me is there are regrets. You just have to live with them. You just have to learn to live with them. And, you know, all of us decide or make a, make a choice of how we're going to sort of, how do you say it is a word I'm looking for, but how you sort of assimilate all your choices into your person,4 (58m 25s):Integrate that and like, become like accept them or like the least own them, maybe.5 (58m 32s):Okay. I did that. It is what it is. it is what it is. I think you're saying it is what it is. It didn't turn out in my favor, but you know, w what else was I going to do? Ah,4 (58m 43s):That brings me to my final. I'll let you, but what was your, her a bit of as a human, but like, what do you do when things don't go your way? How do you, cause I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are coping with like regret and also rejection. And when things don't go your way, whatever that means, how do you as a person, as an artist, however you want to answer it, how do you get back up how do you, how do you keep going?5 (59m 13s):Yeah, I think that I learned this, this trick oh, years ago, where I go and I thought to myself, I'm never going to, whenever I auditioned for, yeah, I am. I am, I will not covet it. I will do everything in my power not to covet it so that if, and when I don't get it, which he usually don't, you didn't lose anything. It was never yours4 (59m 35s):Coveting as it is an interesting word there. Right. Cause it's like, it means sort of to try to clench or hold onto or grasp and like control. All right. So you say that to yourself?5 (59m 47s):Yeah. It gives me a sense of relaxation, relaxation going into the room. Look, if I get it and it could be, life-changing awesome. But if it doesn't, my life is where it is today. Awesome.4 (59m 58s):Part of the thing that I noticed with you is like that you've built such an awesome life anyway, that like stuff will add to it if something mindblowing comes along, but it's not as though it's the only thing going on. Right? So like you have so much going on that you seem to love that if you don't get book a job, it's not going to make the whole house fall down. Right? Like it's not the whole entirety of who you are as an artist.5 (1h 0m 21s):Yeah. This is, this goes back to an experience I had when I first moved to LA, I was in, I was a, an intern at a casting office and that's something I would actually suggest actors recommended they do because you get to see what the other side looks like. And I remember being in there and this, this guy comes in for this audition. He's just Emmy nominated actor at the time. And he has like four page monologue. And I'm reading with him, he's reading through it. He looks down at the pages maybe twice. And he got it the night before. So he did this enormous amount of work. He's reading through it. I'm looking down at the page, just trying to remember it. And I've just have one line of course responses.5 (1h 1m 1s):And he finished it. He is brilliant. He4 (1h 1m 3s):Finishes it.5 (1h 1m 4s):He did a fantastic job. He's brilliant. He gets up right away and says, well, look, thank you all. Thank you all so much and have a nice weekend or whatever. Yeah. He didn't linger. He didn't say, do you need more? He didn't say, Hey, how4 (1h 1m 20s):You know,5 (1h 1m 22s):He just left out and he did not. It seemed like something else was pulling him out of the room.4 (1h 1m 29s):Other5 (1h 1m 31s):Life, something, something else, this wasn't everything he goes out. And the director, I mean the, the casting director, there's, there's just this hush for about 10 seconds, which is a long time after somebody leaves a room after auditioning and it's all executives in the room and me and the cats. And he says the casting director, she says, the casting director says, that's why he's immune nominated. And then there's another beat or two. And then the, the lead executive says, yeah, but he's not right.5 (1h 2m 11s):And so that was it. And so what it taught me was even if you go in with, in your, you're doing all the right things, you're playing all the right beats are the guy. There's a version of that show in which he was fantastic and went on to write awards and4 (1h 2m 27s):Things,5 (1h 2m 28s):But he wasn't right in their estimation. So it took the pressure off of me of trying to have to be4 (1h 2m 33s):Right for everything. Like we can't be right for everything5 (1h 2m 37s):Not going to be right.4 (1h 2m 37s):And what's not, ours is not ours. Like you're saying like, you can covet something all you want, but if it's not meant for me, it's not coming to me,5 (1h 2m 45s):But it mattered to him no less because he still went in and knock their socks off as an actor. And that's the narrative that comes out of that room is that he wasn't right. But wow, he's brilliant. I can't wait to, he is right for the right for,4 (1h 2m 58s):And also it had quite an effect on you. And now you're telling me this story and then it'll be told on the podcast. And so it's, it matters, right? Like it's a ripple effect. So he might not have been right for that part. You know, there's a friend of mine is a casting director and she always says, you probably know her Mickey Paskal on Chicago. And she says, not yet for the person. So it is not, no, it is not there, Terry, you know, she said, not yet, it's not yours yet. Not yet for you. Not yet. And I love that because it, it sort of implies that something's coming. We just don't know when. And we just don't know what it looks like specifically, but just not yet. And I was like, oh, it's such a more, oh, it's like an open way to look at these jobs rather than just like you did with the, it's just not right for it.4 (1h 3m 45s):He, he was brilliant. And then, like you said, there's a version of that show with him in it, but this is not this one. Yeah. And so it's, I, I think that that's great. And I, I think young actors really need to hear that, which is not yet. And you're not going to be right for everything you can't be.5 (1h 4m 1s):Yeah. It took a lot of pressure off me to have to be perfect. And I just started relaxing and just, you know what, I'm gonna do the best job, my version of this, this character. And then if I get it awesome, if I don't, I haven't lost anything. Yeah.4 (1h 4m 15s):And I think, I think what I'm getting just from this, from this interview too, is that idea of building a life with that is full of things that I, or anyone loves to do. Not just one thing. So that if, if one thing doesn't go in one area, doesn't go like perfectly. I could still be like, thank you, have a great day. I'm going to go out and live my life. That is like really dope over here. I have family, I have whatever the things are. Great. So you're not dependent on this one. Yes. To like be okay, but I think it's, it's yeah.5 (1h 4m 51s):It's hard to find you to find your happiness. It's4 (1h 4m 53s):Just like a part of your day, right? Like it's one part of your day. And then you go on and do your things and have your conference calls with Steppenwolf and whatever, eat a sandwich or whatever. So5 (1h 5m 3s):Remember this one or from one friend of mine years ago said, I look at auditions as my one opportunity to act that day or to perform or to tell a story. And I had my two minutes, I go in and I do it and then I'll let it go. And I throw away the sides. And I, I, I go home.4 (1h 5m 19s):I mean, I think that's great. Like I think, I think taking the pressure off and also, right, it's sort of what I call, like right-sizing things, you know, like I've, I I've said before I got into rooms, like I have seen the face of hell and this is not it we're going to go in and we're gonna do it. All right. So I will let you go because you're very, you're very busy and you have a lot of things going on, but I, I just want to thank you. And I also want to say, like, I have a lot of hope. I mean, I, I love Audrey and now I adore you. And I think that the American theater has a real opportunity. The, one of the things that I'm noticing, especially in the whole two weeks that we've had in terms of the Supreme court, that w we have a lot of opportunity, like, things are really, really hard and terrible, but I also think that anytime there's something really terrible, there's also an opportunity for the counterpoint to that.4 (1h 6m 12s):So I'm hoping with the American theater and art in general, perhaps that maybe we can be part of that counterpoint of all the terrible shit that's going on. And I'm hoping that stepping Wolf, I can't wait to see, I'm going to see what the season is, is going to, you don't have to tell me what the season is. I'll look it up. I think you and Audrey should be in all the plays and that's probably not going to happen, but, but no, I am hopeful. I am still hopeful. Are you still hopeful about things?5 (1h 6m 38s):Absolutely. Yeah. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, it's it's not a job you want to take on with a sense of hopelessness. You have to really believe in the, in the sort of prospects of the artists involved in the sort of theater landscape itself.4 (1h 6m 54s):And since you, do you think the same holds true for like film and television? Are you still hopeful?5 (1h 6m 58s):Yeah. Filming film and television have this thing, that theater doesn't and that's called money. So whether you're, you know, I know a lot of folks who are on TV shows who are, you know, maybe not creatively inspired, you know, we've heard that story a lot, but they're getting there. You know, if, if it's, if it's an exchange of dividends for their time, then they're being paid in comparison to their counterparts in other industries they're being paid handsomely. And so that brings you a sense of happiness versus a fulfilling.4 (1h 7m 29s):Yeah. I didn't help your family and you can at least two. So that's true. Like, I think that that's, yeah. We seem to have found a mix of the things that you love and are important to you. And I think that that's something that, that is, that is brilliant, that we don't see a lot. So I say, keep, keep on. I mean, of course you're going to keep on, but thank you for talking to5 (1h 7m 48s):Me.3 (1h 7m 58s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: modern hearing aids are wild, it's always helpful to rate, review, and subscribe. Let Me Run This By You: Family CourtInterview: We talk to Gary Mills about: Pinnacle Performance Company, Fargo, Trollwood Performing Arts School, drama teachers, Death of a Salesman, Don Ilko, The Mouse That Roared, The King And I, Come Blow Your Horn, Lee Kirk, Ric Murphy, Neil Simon, Last of the Red Hot Lovers, Man And Superman, Sam Shepard, Curse of the Starving Class, John C Reilly, American Buffalo, Pump Up The Volume, Dave Koechner, Brian Dennehy, Dog Boys, Atlantic Theater Company, David Byrne, Vince Vaughn, Jim Ostholthoff, The Spotlight Exercise, A Lie of the Mind, Paul Oakley Stovall, the Queen of England.
Intro: Dinosaurs, collaboration, chickens:roost Let Me Run This By You: Teal Swan Interview: We talk to W. Earl Brown about Deadwood, A View From the Bridge, Kentucky, family trauma, Dr. Bella Itkin, Don DePallo, Chris Farley, Wes Craven, David Milch, Gretchen Rennell, Leo Burmester, There's Something About Mary, It's Cold in Them Thar Hills, Hamlet, The Imaginary Invalid, That Championship Season, Amy Pietz, George Czarnecki, transcendence in the theater, Waltz of the Toreadors, Stanislavski, depression, Scream, John C. Reilly,
Intro: Boz is done taking care of people and also she booked a national commercial. Did Gina use the word fatuous correctly?Let Me Run This By You: Tread documentary, tales of revenge. Interview: We talk to Severance's Tramell Tillman about the University of Tennessee, ongoing racial disparities in conservatories, wanting to be an orthopedic surgeon and trying advertising before realizing he was meant to be an actor, Xavier University of Louisiana, Hunters with Al Pacino, Howard University, graduating Summa Cum Laude from Jackson State University, Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity, Dr. Mark G. Hendersen, mentors, Jed Diamond, The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, micro and macro racial aggressions, The Great Society at Lincoln Center, Brian Cox, the unknown harrowing adventures that sometimes accompany auditions and callbacks, making Ben Stiller laugh, Dan Erickson, being self-possessed, Rachel Tenner, Tigran Babadjanian, having the biggest break of your life two months before a global pandemic, Sarah Edwards, Doug Ellin's Ramble On pilot with Kevin Dillon, Kevin Connolly of Entourage.
Intro: Gina is unwell. The Staircase series and The Staircase dramatization, the impact of having to hide one's sexuality, Let Me Run This By You: Boz booked a national commercial! Jodi Sonenberg, Mickie Paskal, Tread documentary. Interview: We talk to Sumie Takashima about the salvation that some people find in drama, The Hangar Theatre, Tisch, moms, hoarding, Chicago,
Intro: Final Draft is conspiring against us, Beastie Boys' Adam Horowitz, Doris the dog loves the vet, Jim Croce, The Cure. Let Me Run This By You: storytelling, Risk Podcast, The MothInterview: We talk to the creator and producer of You're Being Ridiculous, Jeremy Owens, about offending people, porn, Samantha Irby, Roosevelt University, University of Arkansas, The URTAs, King Lear, Greg Vinkler, Barbara Gaines, Plautus' The Rope, P.F. Changs, Kyogen, Threepenny Opera, Steppenwolf, Brene Brown, Marianne Williamson.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.3 (15s):At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Yeah.1 (35s):It was one of these things where it's like, final draft will not let you restart your computer. I'm like, fuck you. Final draft. What did you ever do for me? Final draft writer, duet. They're all, they're all plotting against me,2 (47s):But what is, what is, what does final draft have to do with your camera working on this?1 (53s):So in order to, to be okay, the bottom line is I need a new computer. Okay. Let's start there second. Okay. That's the first level of problems. It's like the deepest level. And then we, if we go up a little bit into the level of problems, it is that final draft that I might camera in order to use my camera. Sometimes I have to restart my computer because it's so old. Right. So I need to restart,2 (1m 19s):You know, I want to do any one thing in the morning I got, are really rev my engine.1 (1m 26s):So like, I'm like, okay, well, in order to restart the computer, it's like not letting me restart it because final draft is this because probably final draft is so advanced and my computer is so Jack.2 (1m 39s):Totally. And that's how they get you mad. I feel like they all conspired to be like, okay, well let's make it. So this will work on this version. So then,1 (1m 49s):So anyway, I see you, you look great. I look like shit. So it's probably better my camera's up.2 (1m 57s):So a couple of things I keep forgetting to ask you on here, about how, how did it come to be that you were chatting in the parking lot with Adam Horowitz about your dogs, Volvo.1 (2m 12s):We never talked about that.2 (2m 14s):We did not.1 (2m 15s):Okay. So I rule up, so my dog, Doris, who everyone knows that listens to the podcast and by everyone, I mean, whoever listens to the podcast, you know what I mean? So hopefully it's growing and growing, listen and rate the podcast. Anyway, the point is I roll up to the vet, which I do oh about every other week, because my dog is a very high maintenance. And so she's just so she of course had an ear infection. Cause she has these huge ears that collect all this bacteria. So I roll up and there's an eye and because it's COVID and everything, you have to park outside and wait, but because it's LA all the windows are down and everyone's car and there's this dude sitting in his Kia has electric Kia.1 (2m 59s):Well,2 (2m 59s):My key.1 (3m 0s):Yeah, I know. I know. I did not recognize this human being. He looked like my husband, like fifties gray, maybe had glasses on.2 (3m 13s):Why would you like all our knowledge of them is when they were so, so young. Right,1 (3m 18s):Right. So young. And I like didn't, you know, keep up with the beast. So it was like, I had other things to do, you know? So I was doing other things. So I'm, I'm like trying to corral Doris out of the car. She's crazy. She's trying to get out. She loves the vet. The backdrop is my dog2 (3m 35s):Loves the,1 (3m 36s):Oh my God. She races towards the vet with a fury that is unmatched, loves it. I2 (3m 43s):Never once heard of this in my entire life. So1 (3m 45s):She's really, really excited about the bet. So she's an extra crazy. And I get her out of the carrier to let her sniff around in the parking lot. And I see this gentleman who is the interesting thing about him is that his leg is out the window. Like he's like resting his leg. And I'm like, well, that's kind of weird for like an older dude, but whatever, it's, it's LA like, you know2 (4m 8s):That sound's going to say, I imagine that kind of thing happens in LA.1 (4m 11s):Yeah. And plus he's probably weighed been waiting and waiting for his dog forever. And so, cause you, you have to wait out there, like they don't want you to leave in case they need you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. So I, and I say, and he says, oh, a cute dog. And I'm like, oh, she's a pain in the ass. And then he's like, what's her name? And I'm like, oh, her name is Doris. And he's like, oh, that was my mom's name. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then we talked about the origin of Doris, cause it's from a Jim Croce song. And Jim Croce is someone, my husband adores the singer. The folks there yeah. Died when he was 29. Looked like he was about 60. When he died.2 (4m 47s):He was 29.1 (4m 49s):Yes. You know, he looks like David Abbott, Holly, if you ever look at me2 (4m 56s):Like a hole, I see it.1 (4m 59s):But just bringing it back to the old theater school. So, so yeah. And so he's like, we talked about Jim Croce and he's like, Jim Croce is the first person I remember dying. I had that album. And I said, yeah. And he said, that's in a Jim Croce song. And I said, yes, Leroy brown, Friday about a week ago, Leroy shooting dice. And at the end of the bar sat a girl named Doris and who that girl looked nice. And that's why we named Doris Doris. He was like, I don't remember Doris being in that song. So we get into that. Right. Okay. And then he's like, I'm like, oh, is your dog okay? And he's like, well, she, she, she got a cut on her neck and I'm like, oh shit. And I'm like, is that2 (5m 38s):A knife fight in a bar?1 (5m 39s):I was like, how did that happen? And he goes, I don't know. But like, you know, since I'm not a doctor, I figured I'd take, bring her to the vet. I'm like good plan, my friend, good plan. So he's like, I'm waiting for him and waiting for her. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he said, what's wrong with your dog? And I said, oh my God, what? Isn't wrong with my dog? And I said, my dog has a dermatitis of the vulva and an ear infection. And he's like, wait, what? And I'm like, yes, she just she's out. She's got a lot of allergies because she's a friend. She and I did this to myself by getting a friendship. But like, yeah, she's got, and he said that his dog was really licking her butthole and he had dermatitis of the bottle. And I was like, it's the same I heard of my friend, Morgan has a Frenchie who has dermatitis of the butthole because all Frenchie owners talk about these things.1 (6m 26s):And he's like, oh, well, my dog has dermatitis of the bottle. I'm like, well, mine's got dermatitis of the Volvo. They both have, they both have like private parts itching. Right. And so then we started talking and we talked about a lot of things. Cause you have to wait forever. And then right. And so we talk and talk and talk and no clue who this person is. And he's like,2 (6m 47s):Did you say cut? There's something about that voice?1 (6m 52s):No.2 (6m 52s):No. Okay.1 (6m 54s):'cause he was kinda mumbly and also just looked so natural.2 (6m 60s):Aiming, sabotage.1 (7m 1s):No, not screaming and also not jumping around with his other two cohort. And then I just, I felt like, anyway, it just didn't cross my mind. And his shoelaces were untied. I don't know. It was like a real casual situation.2 (7m 15s):Yeah. Honestly, I would never assume somebody in a key is famous. That's my snobbery, but I wouldn't.1 (7m 21s):Yeah. I mean, I, it was a very, very, very nice camp, but it still, it was a key I said to you like, oh, that was her talking about cars. I mean, we talked about kids, cars, Manhattan. Then he said, I'm from it. I said, oh, I'm from Chicago. And he said, I'm from Manhattan. And I said, oh, I said, oh my God. I launched into this thing about how I could never live in New York because I was like to own like the most unhip like fat and ugly human and like, not in a bad way, but just like, kind of like I'm. So I just feel like, I didn't know what the fuck was going on ever in New York. Like, I didn't know which way to go, who to talk to, where to turn I was lost. And he's like, yeah. Do you know what I like about LA is like, nothing ever happens here.1 (8m 2s):That's not2 (8m 2s):True.1 (8m 3s):No. But I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I need to just like New York, like you have like a million things are always happening at any given time. Right?2 (8m 11s):Sure. It's a lot too. Like you have to do a lot of processing living in New York, you're taking your, you know, you're just taking in so much information1 (8m 19s):And that does not happen in LA and LA you're like sometimes starved for like,2 (8m 25s):Right.1 (8m 26s):But we talked about that. And then, and then by like end of conversation almost. I was like, oh, I'm Jen. I'm so sorry. And he was like, oh, I'm Adam. And I was like, okay, still, no, I had no2 (8m 40s):Adam common name,1 (8m 41s):Common name, whatever. And mom named Doris, whatever. Like, okay. And then we started talking, he said, his wife, what did he say? Oh, he bought a house in south custody. Anyway, all this stuff. He has a kid. And at the end I say, he was talking about what we, what we do. And I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a writer. And I'm like trying to write TV, but I also consult, I just started this business, but I wasn't, you know, I was a therapist and for felons and like, and then he got really into that. And then I said, oh, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, I was, I think he said I was in the I'm in the music business. I said, oh, that's cool. I thought he was like a producer, like maybe a classical composer or something. I don't know. That's where my mind went. And I'm like, oh, like, what do you do?1 (9m 22s):And then he said, I was in and I said, oh, what kind of music? He's like, I was in a rap trio. And I was like, wait a minute, a rap tree endorsed by this. By this time it was like, biting me. You know, it's like a whole, I'm like, oh, a rap trio. And I couldn't the only rap trio I could think of was run DMC. And I'm like, oh, he's not in that. You know, he's a white dude. There's no way. And I'm like, oh crap trio. And I was like, house of pain, Cypress hill. Like I couldn't get it together. And then I was like, and then it dawned on me. And I said, oh, and he said something, like I said, I don't remember how it came up. And he's like, oh, I'm Adam Horwitz. And I was like, oh, I was like, of course.1 (10m 2s):I said, oh my God. And then I didn't know what to say. So I just said, cause he just moved. He actually, he moved to south Pasadena, wait before I moved to Pasadena. But I said welcome to Pasadena.2 (10m 16s):Right. Because the minute, you know, it's a celebrity. It's like, it changes the ions. Wait. Yes.1 (10m 21s):Thank you. You welcome to you too.2 (10m 24s):So what I think is so interesting and must be so well, I don't know. I don't know if it's annoying or whatever it is, celebrities. You, they must have to always be in a process of deciding with when they're interacting with people, they don't know what are we going to do with this fact, like, do you know who I am? Do you not know who I am? If you know who I am, just, what does that mean? Is that why you're talking to me? And then, but he opened one of the first things you said that he said was that his mom's name was, I mean, I guess that's not unusual, but I was thinking to myself when you said that I was thinking, oh, was he hoping That would confirm not that his dad is famous.2 (11m 10s):His dad is1 (11m 10s):Trail horo. Israel.2 (11m 12s):Yeah. He's a kind of a terrible guy though.1 (11m 16s):I heard is there. I think they're both dead. I mean, from what I got, I don't know. I know he has a sister. I don't know. But like he seemed like the kind, yes, you're right. Like it must be so weird. And also I literally was so into my own world. It's like, so Los Angeles, like I, when I found out that he was, I was super excited because I wanted to say, oh, I saw you at the Metro in Chicago and stuff like that. But then I was like, oh, I can't. And so I got excited, but I also, it was literally like talking to your husband or my husband in that they're old people. Like I wanted to be more excited about the, the youthful version.2 (11m 56s):Right? You want it to be 19 year old, you eating Israel, horrible1 (12m 2s):Adam Harz and being like, let's go on a date or something. But that is not what I, that was not my inclination this time. And also his he's married to this amazing punk hero, Kathleen Hanna from bikini kill who I adore. And I know that, but I didn't bring that up either. But anyway, the point is we exchanged information because we were like, let's walk our dogs. His dog is Terry. It really hairy dog, little girl, dog named Terry. And I said, well, what kind of dog is Terry? And he goes, I don't know, very hairy. And I was like, okay, well, okay. So we may go on a dog-walking adventure. I have no idea, but lovely human, but just like soup. We are super middle age.1 (12m 43s):This is what the moral of this thing was actually not the celebrity. Part of it was the, what hit me the most Gina was the middle age in this of it all. So the other thing is like, nobody gives a shit now about the things that we give a shit about. So the BC boys, I was talking to my niece, she didn't know who that was. And so I was like, oh right. Meaning I still care who they are, but2 (13m 16s):Right. Yeah.1 (13m 17s):Time moves on timeframe.2 (13m 20s):Yeah. Periodically we have kids periodically, they'll come up to you and they'll be like, have you ever heard of this bay? Or like, my son was listening to something and I'm like, and I go, he goes, oh, I've got to play this song for you. It's this band. This is like obscure band or something like that. It was the cure. I go, are you kidding me, dude? I put white face makeup on and wore black and tried to hang my two years in junior high. I knew the cure is okay. So that was one thing. And the other thing was last time.1 (13m 52s):It super nice though. I got to say, if anybody cares, he was not a Dick head.2 (13m 56s):I care. Yeah. That's nice. I'm happy to hear that. But just one last thing about that whole, like being a celebrity, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, because on the one hand you, you could have somebody say, oh, it's like pretentious to not say who you are. And on the other hand, people would say, you know, you can't win. You can't, you1 (14m 14s):Can't win. That is the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah.2 (14m 17s):So the other thing was last time we talked, you said, oh, I want to save it for the podcast, but about showcase. So you were talking about getting your kids ready for showcase.1 (14m 28s):Okay. So here's the deal with that. So I, because of this podcast, I'm like, okay, is there a way to make a showcase? Not the shit show that I feel it was now, there may not be, it might be inherent in the thing. Okay. But so I'm teaching fourth year. I like, basically don't even, I don't know what I'm teaching at this point, but not even teaching anymore. I'm done. And my, my, my, my co-teacher took over, but I started noticing as I always do that, that, that the students are like, you know, crazy nervous about the showcase and also crazy nervous about agents and managers and all the things.1 (15m 9s):Now, there is no showcase in LA. There was only a quote meet and greet. There is no showcase in New York. There was only quote, a meet and greet. Look, it gets weirder in Chicago. There was a live showcase and a meet and greet. Now, I don't know what went down, but the bottom line is the ball has been dropped so many times about this showcase and about graduation and about launching that at this point, the ball is just dead in a heap deflated. Okay. So I said, okay, well, what can I do to make this fucking situation better? Because I know what it's like to be there and be like, oh my God, I'm falling behind. What if so then I'm like, okay, everybody, here's what we're going to do.1 (15m 52s):I am going to email everyone I know in LA and everywhere and say, come to this showcase and watch your digital link. They have a virtual showcase. But the problem with that is nobody. If nobody gets sees it, it doesn't matter. And so it was made in a form beans where it looked like spam. So it went to everybody's spam. So no casting directors and no agents got the fucking link. And I realized that because I told a student of mine, I said, listen, you want to be repped by this one agency, let's create a letter to them. Let's pitch them. And so then I get a call from the agent saying, we loved this letter.1 (16m 33s):Also, thank you for including, we didn't think there was a showcase.4 (16m 37s):Oh my gosh.1 (16m 39s):And I said, what's,2 (16m 41s):This has to do with just the fact that like, there's been all this administrative,1 (16m 45s):I think it's, COVID meets the problem with conservatories, which is that they do not think that launching their students is an important part part of their job. Right? Right. So it falls to nobody. And so the person in charge bless her heart is one marketing person that knows nothing. I don't believe about acting or the entertainment industry at all. There is no Jane alderman. There, there is no, at least. So I stepped in to be like the proxy, Jane alderman with another adjunct. And we were like, okay, well, how do we do this? So I am happy to say that after literally making maybe 43 phone calls, everyone has the link.1 (17m 26s):People are coming to the showcases. Now my thing is to do the meet and greet in LA to try to get people there because these, these kiddos are coming to LA, there is no showcase. I'm like, well, we, what are we doing? Like we have to have something like, so, and I also just, you know, and I know these kids, like these are my students. So like, I want to meet them. And then, so now I'm getting everyone I know to come to the meet, greet in the business and2 (17m 51s):The money thing. Like, they're like, oh, well we have, we can do it online. And so we don't have to pay for, to rent the space for,1 (17m 59s):So they wouldn't even tell me, they wouldn't even tell me. They didn't even want to give me the invite to the LA thing. I had to like fight to get the, I don't understand what is going on. But I was like, listen, all right,2 (18m 11s):DePaul, I'm going to tell you something right now in DePaul. You want to be well-regarded you want to be number one. You want to always talk about your, your alum or even not your alum. People who, who went and got kicked out about their great successes. And you don't, but you don't want to do anything to get there. And that is not how it works, how it works is you put a lot of energy and I'm not saying at the expense of teachers or whatever, but you put a lot of energy and effort into not just hyping your students, but hyping your school.2 (18m 51s):Like it should be that your school is saying, have we got a crew for you? Yeah.1 (18m 56s):And which is what I then stepped in and had to do and be like, these kids are dope. Come see this, look at this link and then come to the thing. And so all the casting and agents in Chicago are now coming. Thank God, because guess who, there was one person RSVP2 (19m 14s):Girl, and you need a bonus1 (19m 16s):Stroke. Here's what we're doing. So then I said, okay, because I'm always thinking, I'm like, okay, well, here's what I'm doing. I'm developing a launching curriculum, which I think I told you about, like, I'm developing a day, one BFA for day one of the fourth year. Here's what we're going to do to launch you. And it's not just about the showcase. It's about mentorship. It's about how can we hook you up with somebody that's in what you want to do? How can we do that? And I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to say, here you pay me $120,000. And I will sell you this program and, and hook you up with teachers and people. I know that can step in and do this with me. Like you like people in the business, like people who are on different coasts, like duh, and then we will.1 (19m 58s):So, and if you don't want to buy it, DePaul theater school, we're selling it to Northwestern or NYU or any anyone.2 (20m 4s):Well, I was going to ask, do you know, if other conservatories are doing showcases and doing,1 (20m 9s):And they are, and they are doing it and they are, they are doing it. I, from what I can see, Gina, they're doing it better. I don't know if it's, you know, how good it is. But I do know that like other showcases released their digital showcase because of the pandemic on actors, accessing and town and casting networks, which DePaul did not do. Oh2 (20m 30s):My God.1 (20m 32s):So here's, so that is not okay with me because I went there and I, I do care about it because of this podcast. I also know that these kids having watched them at, you know, 21 year olds, 22 year olds, max, they're busting their ass, just like you. And I we're busting our ass. Like, look, they're busting their ass more than we were, but you and I busted her ass too. And I feel like we didn't get what we needed from the launch process. And what, what will happen is no one will people and people stopped going to theater school. Is that what you want? Or do you want to upgrade like level?1 (21m 13s):Let me run this by. There's a lot of people I hate.2 (21m 24s):Exactly, exactly. Okay. So the thing I wanted to run by you is about storytelling. I signed up for this workshop in my town. We have a little community theater and they sometimes have little workshops and I did improv there one time. And actually by the way, doing improv there, I I'm, I still am terrified of it. And I still don't feel like I'm I do well, but add it. But I reduced my fear somewhat by just aging within, and then we had a performance and my whole family came and yeah, it was, yeah.1 (22m 3s):Why don't we talk about what2 (22m 5s):She like two years ago or three years ago, actually. Yeah. Three or maybe even four years ago now. But anyway, on Sunday I went to, they ha they had a workshop led by a storyteller from the moth and she taught us, you know, how to, so there was only five of us there. One person, only one person absolutely knew when he came in. Exactly what story he wanted to tell. The rest of us were like, I have certain things that are coming to mind. Of course my thing. And I said, I was, I just owned it from the beginning was I've written essays. And I've, you know, written a lot about my life.2 (22m 46s):And yet I somehow feel like I don't have a story to tell. And she said, that's so common. She was telling this great story about somebody. Cause she does corporate stuff too. She was telling the story about somebody in a workshop, in a corporate workshop who just kept saying, I just, I don't have a story. I don't have a story. The day goes on. And he goes, well, I might have something, my family and I fled Vietnam right before this. And she goes, yeah, that's a story. That's a, that's a story you could tell. Anyway, point being, we're putting these stories together and we're going to perform them on Friday.2 (23m 34s):And the I'll say there is something about the process of working on it. That has been, it's not exactly healing, cause this is not a, for me at all. It's something I'm telling a story about when I lived in that apartment on Lil and Libby got me this job at the bakery and while we were, and she was very assiduous about being to work on time. And1 (24m 9s):I remember the, was it the red hen? Oh, we shouldn't say it out loud.2 (24m 12s):I actually, I really don't remember the name. I think it might have been called great Plains. I don't know. Okay. I don't think it's there anymore. And one of the things that was our task was to deal with the mice that inevitably came into the, in the flour sacks and stuff like that in the back. And, but I never she'd said to me, we have to deal with the mice, but I somehow, I hadn't really, really thought that through. And the way we were meant to deal with the mice was hit them over the head with a shovel.1 (24m 47s):Oh. So, so murder of the mice2 (24m 50s):Were into the mice. And so my story is about watching this five foot tall, gorgeous little, just, I mean, she looks like a bird, this girl, woman now, but she was a girl. Then I'm just swinging the shovel over her head and bringing it down. And then just very like with, with zero expression, taking paper towels and picking it up and throw it in the trash, washing her hands and making it back to the register in time for the next customer who came in. And my point of it, of the story is that's. That was one of my most important lessons about the difference between being poor and being broke because I was broke, you know, and always looking for jobs and always working through school.2 (25m 35s):But if it came to smashing a mouse over the head with a shovel, I'm just going to quit that job and go find another job, selling clothes at express. But Libby did not have such luxuries. She had to take the jobs that she could get. And she had to guard them with her life because as even, even with the amount of time she worked, there was a period of time where she would tell me, like, I'm going to bed hungry a lot of nights. And I couldn't help her, you know, because I was broke. I just, I didn't have we bought ramen. I mean, we right. Like six days a week.2 (26m 16s):And so it's about that. And so there's something about, but, but the fact that it's about this epoch in my life yeah. Which I haven't really written that much about, I've written about my childhood and I've written about things that are more contemporary, but you have a lot of experience with storytelling. And I'm curious to know what role that has played in sort of, you know, for one thing, the ability to string together, kind of the, of your life into a cohesive narrative. If, if1 (26m 47s):That's2 (26m 47s):Something that has been helpful or if maybe you have healed in some way, maybe from your one person show,1 (26m 53s):I am Gina. What comes to mind? Like what first came to mind when you were talking about your experience with this storytelling thing? Is it, what, what is the coolest thing to me about storytelling? Like this live lit as we like to call it in Chicago, just because I, storytelling people think it's like, we started calling it live live because people thought it was like, you know, Renaissance fair storytelling. Right. We had like a cheese ball, it's it doesn't matter. It's storytelling. So storytelling, bridges the gap for me. And maybe you have acting and writing. So it is both performance and writing, which I think is brilliant. I think acting is for the birds.1 (27m 35s):Like I just do. I think acting is really hard. I'm not very good at it. Not because I'm not a good person, but that's what I'm saying. I'm not very good at it because I don't like it as much as I like telling a story. That's my story. That also has a performance aspect to it. And it heals the acting thing for me. So you are acting, you are acting, you're not like you in your kitchen, just like when we do a podcast where there's a part of us, that's acting, it's not, you know, it just is what it is. So I think that that is extremely healing. And what, I wonder if it's extremely healing for you, because I feel like in terms of the acting thing, I know that post-graduation from an acting conservatory, you talk about just completely shutting down, completely not shutting down to the acting part of yourself.1 (28m 25s):And I think like through your son and then through this podcast and through writing television and now through storytelling and like your dip into improv, you're, you're healing, the actor part of yourself.2 (28m 37s):That's right. That's right. It1 (28m 38s):Wouldn't surprise me. If you went on to do acting like started acting in plays and stuff. Again,2 (28m 44s):I'm not going to lie. I'm really thinking about it at this point in time. I still feel like it's a bridge too far, just because I have nobody to spell me at home. You know, I can't ask my husband to leave his job so I can go to a play. But at some point, I mean, you know, they're not going to be this age forever. At some point I will be able to do that. And I do have designs on doing that actually.1 (29m 8s):Yeah. And I think, and I think you, I think this storytelling is brilliant because I think the cool thing about storytelling, as well as like you could go to New York city and do them off one night. It's not a, it's not a commitment like the play. In fact, you could do the risk thing that I did in New York. Like the rest of the podcast is live performances in New York. So all this to say that I think storytelling is a fantastic way to heal the part of ourselves that wants to be a performer, but definitely doesn't want, is not ready to take all the trappings and bullshit. That is a professional acting career, which is garbage. Like I got to say, like I just tell my students is to like the part of the business, which is why this is so fraught because it's garbage.1 (29m 55s):That's why you don't like it. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it to you. If you can find a way to make it worth it to you, the competition, the rejection, the then go for it. But what if that is bothersome? And like, you don't want to deal, like what about live lit? Like what about improv? What if there's so many other things? And so like, wouldn't it have been awesome. Gina. If someone had come to us fourth year and been like, Hey, you know what, maybe you get really nervous and that panic attacks when you have to audition. But what about like writing this thing and telling your story on, you know, on a stage somewhere where you get to hold the piece of paper2 (30m 34s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Jeremy Owen. Jeremy is a storyteller and the creator of a storytelling show called George being ridiculous, which is premiering ask Stephanie, I think tomorrow or the next day, check it out. Please enjoy our conversation with Jeremy Owens. Wow. Congratulations. Jeremy Owens. You survive theater school. I want to hear this fabulous story. I missed the beat.1 (31m 11s):Yeah. So Gina, miss the beginning. So I was just basically saying that everyone's rusty and it's really good. We're talking about this because also Gina's performing storytelling this weekend and we were just talking about rusty. It was, everyone was after two years of not doing live lit stuff. And then Jeremy tells me that he did a show and of course we can, you don't have to use names and all that, but like did a show and it went south and by south, he's going to tell us what that means. It really went south. So7 (31m 41s):It really, when up it's like so complicated. Okay. So I was doing a fundraiser first off. I was like, I there's no way, like, who wants to watch me talk on zoom? Like we're doing that all the time. Like who even cares? How can this benefit anyone? But it's a fundraiser. My sister-in-law asked me amazing. I love it. Amen. Let's go. Let's do it. So we're doing it. And I, okay. I was not as cautious. And as careful as I should have been the show, I mean, you done the show, you did a show. I don't know if I can talk about your story, but you like got your tooth knocked out. That's1 (32m 22s):Oh, I believe me. I did. I gave a blow job and my back lower fell out. Yeah.7 (32m 28s):That's a story2 (32m 28s):Story. I7 (32m 31s):Share that story, but That's good. That's the, but that's like kind of the fuel it's like, you don't know what's going to happen. Some things are like, you know, super lovey Dubby. Sometimes somebody tells a story about a blow job and their tooth gets knocked out. It's like not a big deal. Like this is the world we live in. But I mean, if you're doing a corporate fundraiser for someone and I just, Alex, if you're listening, I love you. I just was not clued in. And that's my fault. That's not her fault. It's my fault. I accept responsibility for all those things. This is my disclaimer for my, for my sister-in-law. I accept all the responsibility for that. I just should have been more cautious.7 (33m 11s):Right. So if you're up for doing show or tea, fall out from low jobs, it's not that maybe not the best for like a board. Like those are the stories that people,1 (33m 20s):I7 (33m 20s):Didn't know1 (33m 21s):It is. If I'm on the fucking board, I'd probably not get,7 (33m 24s):I know, same for me. I mean, we went to theater school and I've decided like, as that has passed me by that we're not the same as like Bob down the street who is like wildly offended by anything, you know, sexual or1 (33m 42s):Anything2 (33m 42s):You ever get used to that, by the way, I, I I'm always like, oh really? We have to do this thing where I have to pretend like I'm talking to my grandma. Like you're a full grown adult standing in front of me. What's that?1 (33m 53s):What's your story about, please tell me something amazing. Gross, please.7 (33m 56s):I didn't even get to my story. That's the thing. Okay. So It wasn't even me. I wish it were me. It was like six or seven people. And I think we got like three or four in. And so as they're happening, I'm like, oh wow. That person said, fuck, oh no, this person's talking about porn. Oh, wow. Like things that like, just don't register for me. Right. Because I guess theater school. It's like, none of that registers for me. I'm not offended by anything other than like racist, white assholes.7 (34m 38s):Anything else? It doesn't register me. I don't. I know. I just don't care. I'm not bothered. So2 (34m 45s):Charity though. I mean,1 (34m 47s):It was like, there was it like the nuns of like a sister.7 (34m 50s):Oh, I don't want to say there. I don't want to say their name. I'll tell you1 (34m 54s):What Sater7 (34m 56s):Well, they're like1 (34m 58s):Healthcare, charity. He doesn't want7 (35m 1s):. Yes. I mean, it's a great charity. They do wonderful things. It's awesome. Right. But they weren't ready for1 (35m 12s):Me. So what happened? It just went blank.7 (35m 15s):Like we're just plopping along and I'm like so excited. Cause it's like July 20, 20. I have only been like talking to my dog and my husband. Right. So this is happening and I'm listening to stories. I'm having a great time. This is like amazing loving life porn who cares, you know, whatever. And then all of a sudden it stops working. Like I don't see anything. And I'm like, oh my God, this is my brother-in-law. I was like running the tech. I'm like, oh no,1 (35m 44s):He thought it was a tech thing. Of course.7 (35m 46s):I was like, well, this happened to me. I was taking this class online this weekend and the internet I had and I was like, oh shit. Like in the middle of class, I'm like, great. So now they think I'm an asshole. I just left class early. So I'm just like, this is dead. Right. Then they come, my sister-in-law calls me and tells me what's happening. And they're all furious. And they just, instead of like a conversation or something, or like this is coming or we're so disappointed, it was just like, this is over now. Like just totally dead. The bad part about that is that none of us knew. And there was no communication with me. Other if it hadn't been my sister-in-law, I don't know if I would, I would still be here on my computer.7 (36m 31s):Probably.1 (36m 32s):That's hilarious right there. Like, are you there yet?7 (36m 36s):Hello? Hi. Hi. They just didn't communicate at1 (36m 40s):All.2 (36m 43s):We're like, really? I'm getting irritated about this. Listen to the story is like, I don't know any of the players, but I feel like, I feel like we're the people we're pretending people are pretending that they don't watch porn or that they don't swear or, you know, like, why do I have to do this? Pretending I just love unless there was children in the audience and maybe there were,7 (37m 4s):I don't think so. Like, you know, it's like, I had like friends who1 (37m 8s):I curated it. Where you did you7 (37m 10s):Find, I mean, it's all, basically this entire thing is my fault. But like1 (37m 15s):You, you found everybody.7 (37m 17s):I found everybody, I got everybody. This was like a great in my mind was this is like a greatest hits. This is like, awesome.1 (37m 24s):It's the one time I'm so grateful. I was not asked to do anything. Like7 (37m 29s):It was just so weird. And there's like, I don't know it. Yeah, it was. But again,1 (37m 37s):I do the story for the ages. I love it. All of a sudden, it just goes blank.7 (37m 41s):I'm in the home. This is a story I'm going to, I just went blank. I didn't know what to do. Everything was gone. Just talking about those things. It doesn't, I don't find that if, when I say porn, I'm not like, this is the butthole. Like it wasn't like, you know what?2 (37m 59s):I7 (37m 59s):Watched porn. Right. That's not offensive to me.1 (38m 5s):I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah. Like Gina was saying like we're okay. So that went south. Like if did you feel I'm really concerned? Like, cause I would have probably had to check in somewhere because I would have been like, I curated this motherfucker and now I caused this whole fucking7 (38m 23s):I'm still like T like we have a show coming up in like a week at Steppenwolf. And I had one of the storytellers from that show sent me a is doing the show at Steppenwolf. And I like had a moment because his story is like, because of that. And because I'm like wildly triggered, I was like, Hey, maybe you could do this story about tennis or whatever. And he's like, do you need a PG story? Like what's going on? And then I was like, and then I re-read a story. And I was like, I do not his stories about sex.7 (39m 5s):I do not find this offensive. This is okay. I'm person totally traumatized. And then I had to go back and be like, oh God, remember that thing that happened in 2020, I'm just totally melted from that. And your story is great and everything's fine. I'm just having a moment. I'm going to calm down2 (39m 24s):And see what happens to me though. When I hear w whenever my antenna go up, whenever I hear like, oh, that's offensive to me. That just automatically means you're doing behavior that you feel really ashamed of. And so you want to shame me instead of just own the truth of whatever it is you're doing. This is exactly what happens on the Handmaid's tale. You know, it's all about the Bible, but then they're just like holding people down and raping them. So I just think it's a little bit of a soft sign for you've got trouble. If adults are saying that referencing the fact that there is porn is7 (39m 58s):Troublesome. Yeah.1 (40m 2s):Oh my God. I can just, okay. I would have been so traumatized. So I hear you. And I also think that, like, it's interesting, I've had a similar thing where like, on this podcast, I've mentioned my husband's job. I have mentioned. And so Gina and I always talk about, well, we will not always, but we've had to talk about this of like, what is the, and it's like a bigger thing in our society right. In the world. Like, where do I draw the line of like, can I stand behind this? I guess that's what it is. It's like, can I stand? If I'm called to the carpet, whoever God, the board, whoever, and say, stand behind this show. These words can.1 (40m 43s):And that's when, if I can stand behind it and I am willing to answer for it. And I'm like, I'm all in. If I feel like I'm wishy washy, then I feel like it's going to go south. And then I it's weird. It's a weird thing. It's like when to cut, when to not cut, now, you didn't have the ability I'm fucking lives to do7 (41m 6s):That. What1 (41m 7s):Happens in live television, right? When someone who goes bonkers or has a stroke, God forbid, or it's like, you don't know what to do. So live is a different thing. Like it's different with a podcast. We can cut. We can, but like a live show, whether zoom or on stage, there is this moment. So when I did my solo show, Samantha Irby, Sam Irby opened for me. Right. Ramus. Now wasn't famous then. But it was always a Reverend and a bad-ass right. But data story at my show and my uncle were there about SAC,7 (41m 38s):Right.1 (41m 38s):Eight leakage and fluids. And I was like, oh. And then I thought, oh, I wanted to run on stage and be like, ah, this is too much. But then I thought you invited this person. This is their jam. This7 (41m 54s):We love. Right.1 (41m 58s):What, what, okay, sit, sit, and just deal with it. And if my uncle and my uncle was really offended and like, fuck that. Okay. So, but it's hard to do. I was squirming. So you must've been squirming when you, when your, when your person called you and was like, cause you, you found these people. But I think sometimes we squirm, right? Sometimes we squirm,7 (42m 21s):Oh my God, I was dying. Cause it's like, I don't, I don't want to disappoint any of, either of you, this computer, this desk. And I just want to make everyone so happy all the time. And I don't want anyone upset with me or like, I don't want to cause any problems, nothing. I want you all happy.1 (42m 42s):And sometimes despite our best people, pleasing efforts, like shit goes south. Like that is the story of shit going south. Despite Being a good person, having gone to college, go to it, shit still goes south. So7 (42m 55s):I vote like1 (42m 58s):You're very active, like socially.2 (43m 2s):So let's, let's talk about you and your experiences. Did you go to DePaul?7 (43m 7s):I wish I had gone to DePaul, but I, from listening to this podcast, I get that. I don't know. I went to Roosevelt university for grad school.2 (43m 17s):Cool. Tell us everything. Tell us, like, when you decided you wanted to be an actor and when you decided you wanted to go to theater school, tell us everything.7 (43m 25s):Well, for me, I grew up in Arkansas. So I went to the university of Arkansas and I started out as like a journalism and a political science major. But then they, the department, the journalism department had us take a speech class. Like how does speak in theater class, you know, to get rid of your accent basically. Cause we're all Arkansans. We sound like, you know, we're in God, but the wind or whatever. So we took this class and I had growing up and like my small town, I always loved theater. I'd done community theater and the whole thing. So when I took that class and like, everyone in there is like, you know, so alive and so like interesting and like, like real, I was like, well, this is going to be a problem.7 (44m 17s):So then I, like, I signed up for, you know, the second semester of the class. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna audition for these one acts. And then so slowly I just migrated into the theater department and completely dropped journalism, political science, all of it. And disappointed my parents ruined their lives, you know, the whole thing. So I didn't really understand, like by the, by the end of my time in undergrad, I was like, I don't really, it's like, you're young. It's like, I don't understand grad school. I don't know. But that seems to be thing that I, there was a grad program that had just started there, like, like near the end of my time there.7 (44m 59s):And I was like, I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. And so everyone told me to go to Chicago. I hadn't ever been to Chicago. I knew nothing about it. Never even visited, but I was like, okay. They're like funny people should go to Chicago. And I'm like, oh, I'm funny. So I guess that's where I'll go.1 (45m 15s):You are funny. So it's good. You went there.7 (45m 17s):Thanks. So, so I auditioned at IRDAs and did that whole thing. And then I got a call back from them and I, it was like weird. Like I thought there was going to be like some like bigger process or something. Like, am I going to, I was like, ready, you know, with like my other, like, do you want 16 bars? Do you need other other monologues? Like, well, what's the deal? And it was just kind of like a done thing. So I was like, Yeah, it's like at the callback, there was like, it was an IRDAs. And it's like, you'd go to the person's hotel room, which now seems really creepy what, with a couple other people.7 (45m 57s):And it just seemed like I liked the person who did the interview and I was like, they're in Chicago. This seems great. I2 (46m 7s):Like to act in a hotel room. I've never7 (46m 9s):Done. Like, the audition was in, like, I don't even know where it was like the ballroom. It was like, there was like a black box sort of like made up situation. So you audition and then like the next day or a few hours later, you get like a sheet with a little list of the schools that want to like talk to you or whatever. And we have been like through the ringer with my undergrad teacher and she's like, okay, you need to have, like, you had like your folder with your monologues. And like, if someone wanted a song, like your whole thing, it's like bootcamp and you're ready. So I'm like prepared for somebody to ask me to do anything. And I don't know, I got called back to like a lot of places, which I was like, oh my God, none of them asked me for anything.7 (46m 54s):Which maybe looking back, maybe that was like, not a great situation. I don't know what that means.2 (46m 60s):They were just the, and the call back. They were just meeting you. Right. They were just wanting to know if you were like,7 (47m 4s):Yeah, I guess1 (47m 6s):You're acting probably wow. Like really? They probably would have if they were on the fence, but that probably wasn't that they probably wanted to do what, you know, they, they, a chemistry breed or whatever the fuck they call it. Right.7 (47m 18s):Yeah. I guess. But this meaning with the person at Roosevelt, it's like, she was nice. It was great. It felt good. So I was like, all right, maybe that's where I'm going. And I knew I wanted to get Chicago. So like, that was, that was the deal.2 (47m 36s):It's an undergrad. You were not thinking this at all. I'm guessing you don't come from a performing family or you, you weren't doing this in high school.7 (47m 44s):Oh my God. Well, there was like the junior play or whatever that like pays for the prom, you know, like that kind of a situation. But otherwise, like I did community theater and I'm from a town of like 10,000 people. So there wasn't like really a community theater. I did Annie and Mike, I don't know, 10th grade or something.1 (48m 3s):Amazing.7 (48m 4s):Really upset. I couldn't be Annie. I was like a Senator. And like the apple salesman. I was like that guy I'm like running around doing whatever anybody wanted me to do.1 (48m 20s):Funny. That's why he could do a lot funny.2 (48m 23s):Yeah. Interchangeable. Okay. So day one, you're at Roosevelt. Is this the education that you thought you were going to get7 (48m 32s):Funny? You should ask. So this, when I went, which was, this was 2000 yes. 2000. So it was their first year of their MFA program.1 (48m 44s):Oh shit.7 (48m 46s):Oh shit is right. They accepted 30 people take that in verse1 (48m 54s):307 (48m 55s):MFA. Oh yeah.1 (48m 57s):It's too many people that just like five.7 (49m 0s):Thank you. I think that if I'm being kind, I think they accepted a huge amount of people thinking that, you know, with everything going on that like maybe 10, which is still too many would accept. So there were 30 of us. So we're there on the first day. And I'm just like, this seems , I don't know anything about what this experience is supposed to be, but 30 people that's like, that's like an entire MFA program, you know, that's like three years of people or more So immediately.7 (49m 44s):I was just like,1 (49m 45s):Hmm,7 (49m 47s):This doesn't seem right. But you know, I was like 24. So I'm like so happy to be there. I'm living in my friend's base. My friend's mom's basement until I find an apartment just like, you know, desperate twenties times. So immediately. I was like, I, this is hi. All right.1 (50m 11s):I think I should get off this rollercoaster right now, but it's already going, right?7 (50m 16s):Yeah, totally. I just like was on. And because I didn't have like necessarily the support of my parents where this entire thing, I was like, fight or flight. Like I will do this. If I have to hang on to the side of the building and sleep like that, or like, whatever it is, I'm gonna do this. So I did it.2 (50m 49s):And is it a typical curriculum, voice and speech and movement and all that stuff?7 (50m 54s):Yeah. I was sort of surprised by all of it. The program that I did in undergrad, I felt, I don't know. I guess everyone in undergrad, if you're doing theater stuff there, you think that like, what you're doing is like enough and great. And that's how everything's going to go. So to spend like three hours a day in a movement class, suddenly when you're like, God damn it, let me do a monologue or a scene or sing a song. Like let me work. You know, I understand that that is also work and it's fundamental, but it was really shocking to me.1 (51m 37s):You know, what's interesting is like, and you're not the first person that I've, I felt this, that we've had on the show is like, what I would eat. Like you should have maybe gone right to second city and just done that call that five-year conservatives And gotten the fuck out, but it's not accredited. It's not like a real university that would probably make your parents even more like unhappy. And so, but like you needed like a professional program, like there's conservatory training for actors and then there's professional programs. And I wish I had done, so. Okay. But you're in this. How long was the Roosevelt MFA program?7 (52m 15s):Three years. Oh,1 (52m 16s):Fuck. Right.2 (52m 18s):And was it the thing where you can't perform the first year, but then you do and you're in the casting pool with VFS.7 (52m 26s):Yeah, I, we couldn't perform in the first year though, at the end of the first semester, they opened up an audition to be an intern at Chicago Shakespeare, which was like super exciting. So I auditioned and then I was doing the second semester, I got to be an intern and be on stage and do king Lear, Chicago, Shakespeare. I mean, I was like, you know, a dude, a homeless person running around. Oh, we got it. Yeah. So then I was like, oh no, this is great. I'm like with like these amazing people that I don't know who they are yet, but I will.7 (53m 9s):And there, those people are amazing2 (53m 12s):In that7 (53m 13s):Greg VIN CLER.1 (53m 15s):Oh yeah. was Barbara Gaines directing7 (53m 18s):Barbara Gaines director.1 (53m 20s):Yeah. She's amazing. She's she's famous for, for me, for my one audition I had there, she yawned during my whole model to be fair, but to be fair, it was really boring. Like, it was really boring. She was basically doing what I wish I could have done. It was boring. My shit was boring. She was like this. Can't see. But yeah, she was rude, but apropos I sucked anyway. Okay. So you were, you got to work at shakes and so you were like, okay, but did you make friends? What was the vibe like? BFA was the BFA program established at that time?7 (54m 2s):I think so. Oh, and that part. Okay. Like whatever I'll say about Roosevelt, which I don't have, I don't know necessarily great things to say about the program. It doesn't even exist anymore, PS, by the way. But the BFA program, the program for undergrads, I thought that was like, excellent. Like, I was like happy for those kids. Like that seemed like good. And they were having a good time, but for us it was just, I don't know. It just felt kind of sad and different.2 (54m 26s):So your parents were psyched about the idea of you being a journalist. That's what they thought you were going to.7 (54m 32s):I think the imaginary plan was that I would, or what I sold them at the time was I'm gonna get this journalism degree and then I'm gonna go to law school.1 (54m 43s):Oh,2 (54m 45s):Right. That's everybody's, catch-all hilarious.7 (54m 48s):So that's what I'm going to do. But then I was like, but these plays, these people, it's really the people that are purchased more fun.2 (54m 57s):I actually got dressed so many people in for exactly that reason. It's just something that's like tribal feeling that you don't know that you don't have it until you find it. And then you go, oh my God.7 (55m 8s):Yeah. It was really, it was really all encompassing. I was like, well, I can't not be with these people.2 (55m 15s):What kind of shows did you do there at Roosevelt?7 (55m 18s):I all right. So, so there was that first year experience. And then I don't know. I let's see, I did my last year.1 (55m 30s):Yeah. It just sticks out in your brain7 (55m 33s):Threepenny opera. And then there was this weird Asian adoptation of the rope by whatever old Greek guy,2 (55m 47s):Asian adaptation.7 (55m 48s):So here's one of the weird things about the program. So there were a couple of classes that made zero sense that we were taking as actors. One was, we all had to take a stage management management course. I don't know. Did you guys have to know1 (56m 5s):I7 (56m 5s):Was like1 (56m 5s):Crew, but I don't even know. No.7 (56m 8s):Well, yeah, like working on a cruise, like that's normal, but in an entire semester demo devoted to stage management just seems kind of rude.2 (56m 18s):It sounds like they needed stage managers for their shows1 (56m 22s):Teachers. Yeah.7 (56m 25s):And then there is a professor there who white lady who loved Asian theater. And so, yeah. Pause for that1 (56m 37s):PF chains of, she was trying to be the PF Chang's PF J7 (56m 44s):God lover. I mean, yes. I'm interested in Asian theater too, but everyone was required as part of the MFA program to take an Asian theater class. So, which is interesting. I'm not knocking like any of that, but the PA I don't know the possibility of me being in an Asian.2 (57m 7s):Yeah. Like what's the really,1 (57m 11s):It just sounds like she had a thing for her thing was Asian theater and she wanted everyone else's thing.7 (57m 16s):Total your thing. She had studied in, I don't know, Japan, I think, and had done this whole program and it was like her, she may even have like a PhD on it. I don't really know, but that was her thing and good for her. Awesome.1 (57m 31s):Why are you teaching? But it's7 (57m 33s):Not practical. Yeah. It just seems like weird. So the play I did, I did the, the rope, which is like a Greek play. Never2 (57m 42s):Heard of it.1 (57m 43s):I wish you had done the rain anyway.7 (57m 48s):So she translated the play into a Kyogen style thing, which is a very specific Asian theater style play. Not only that, not only that, but like, I have always been openly unapologetically sort of who I am, which means, hello, I'm a homosexual and it's clear and I'm not like afraid of that as an actor or a person. So I played the, yeah, get ready. I played the, I don't want to call it like the evil sister, but I played like the villain in the play, which was like an older, which type woman in the play.7 (58m 40s):And that was supposed to be hilarious.1 (58m 48s):That's really where we're headed in the arts. I'm also saying the arts in the logs shit went down. Not that7 (58m 56s):Some weird shipments out. Yeah. So it's like thinking about that now you would like wants to like light all of Chicago on fire. Right? Correct. But at the time, this I guess was like, cool, cool. And inventive to make the one gay guy that you were Sure was gay play a woman Asian drag. Oh my gosh. The whole thing is like Asian themed rides. and the whole thing I don't, I can't say for sure, but I don't think1 (59m 39s):So. What the fuck?7 (59m 42s):So just a bunch of white people running around and kimonos speaking in a very like, you know, meter to style Asian thing. And I'm a woman also.2 (59m 53s):I wish we had a video. I really want to watch this play. I mean, just like for a snippet, because you know, when you think of yourself and how seriously you took a role when you were young and you and you, and you just in your mind's eye, even if there's no video and you just imagine, like, what does this actually look like? And that's always looks funny, no matter what or sad. If it's a comedy, it looks sad. And if it's True. So that was one. Did you have any roles that you liked?7 (1h 0m 29s):I mean, kind of, well, there was like a, a directing project that one of my friends did. It was like a Steve Martin one act. And I was like, yeah, right. Like it was like a legit play that was like funny and good. And I had like the lead and I was like, it was like us, like a straight man that I was playing. And I like felt excited because it felt like I was like reaching. I'm not reaching, but you know what I mean? You're like, oh, this is a play. I'm like, yeah. I was like, do a thing. And I like am working for this goal to do. And I felt like I was successful in it and it felt good.7 (1h 1m 9s):But like, that was probably the one, even in my thesis role, which was like, I was like a random chorus person in Threepenny opera, literally it's my third year. I'm like, Hmm. I have to write 30 pages now on yeah. That's, it's like that.1 (1h 1m 27s):The thing like that, I just, and maybe you guys could chime in. And in terms of the curriculum, there doesn't seem to be an actual curriculum for these programs. Like now that I'm teaching, I'm like, wait, what, what is the7 (1h 1m 42s):Tactical?1 (1h 1m 43s):And what is the piece of paper that you can point to, to say, this is the mission of these three years for these MFA actors. There is no plan. What is the plan? That's what I feel about a lot of this is, and it's still to this day in, in conservatories, what is the fucking plan? Because there doesn't seem to be one and there's not a plan. We shouldn't be charging dollars to these people. I just, I, it should be, then it should be camp, a freak out where we go when we, I don't know. Anyway. So2 (1h 2m 15s):I mean, honestly, like it's, it needs to be treated a little bit more like a school and pass fail, right?7 (1h 2m 23s):Yeah. Like the goal it's like, if you're a journalist, like, can you do these things? Can you write a bituaries? Can you write a news story? Can you do the, you know what I mean? So it's like, when I leave this place, am I going to be able to get a job? And I know that like, everyone's like, theater's like, oh gosh, you're never going to work or whatever, but that, it's just not true. It's like, everything is the same. There are basic skills. Do you have them,1 (1h 2m 50s):There are milestones to meet along the way. And if you, I mean, anyway, I it's just, the more we interview folks, the more I'm like, oh, this whole higher ed situation, fine arts needs a whole overhaul. I don't know what it's going to take, but we'll probably be extinct on the planet before it happened. So I just feel like maybe that's the way it's going to go and okay. But like, okay, so you graduate, you then are like, okay, I have this MFA. Then what happens to you7 (1h 3m 21s):By the end of the program? I was really like, I don't know. I feel like it kind of, it kind of broke me because things like that were happening, which in a way is like, I mean, at the time we didn't have the language for like, you know, playing an Asian woman in a play, like it's offensive. And it's like, not furthering me. It's racist. It's not furthering me as an actor. I'm not going to leave here and like run around and Komodo and place for the rest of my life. It just kind of broke me. And a lot of the, I would say some of the teachers, the whole situation just didn't make me feel good.7 (1h 4m 4s):So at the end, I was like, you know what, maybe? Hm. I don't know. I need, I needed a break from that whole world. I mean, I did audition for awhile, but the shortest while1 (1h 4m 21s):How short,7 (1h 4m 26s):Maybe it was a couple years1 (1h 4m 28s):Because we have Gina's trajectory and mine, mine too. Like I stopped after I stopped after three.7 (1h 4m 35s):Yeah. I was probably three years. Like slowly, just petered out. I mean, I got to the point where I'm like going. So I went on a few theater auditions in the beginning and then I had an agent and I would go on these, like on camera calls. And I would just be like, oh my God, I'm in this giant room with a hundred people that are dressed and look just like me. This is the most pressing thing. Like, I just was like, I can't, this isn't, this doesn't feel good either.2 (1h 5m 6s):I want to hear how eventually, how we get to storytelling. But before we do, I just, I didn't want to leave the whole Roosevelt thing without, I don't think I've really asked anybody this before, but you're not the first person who basically says to us, like, I'm gay. They didn't know what to do with me in theater school. Right.7 (1h 5m 30s):So2 (1h 5m 32s):I don't know if this is a question or a comment or what, or like just a prompt for discussion, but what is the barrier there? I mean, it seems like what you're saying about this role that you got cast, it's like, you're gay. So you'd like to wear drag. Is that what the thinking was?7 (1h 5m 47s):I don't know. For me, it's two things. It's like, there's the gay thing for sure. But also I'm funny. So if you're in a serious theater program, please understand I'm doing some heavy air quotes because every theater program thinks they're a serious theater program. They really do not know what to do with people who are fitting into the definition of serious. And so I think yes, there is like me, the stereotypical gay person or whatever, if I am so there's that person, but that's usually a funny person.7 (1h 6m 28s):And so then they don't like it totally. This is serious. We're doing real serious work here. How can this work?1 (1h 6m 38s):It makes that, that makes me, it makes sense. And it also makes me so angry, just Raging, also like fucking pick different motherfucking material. You've that fits your mother fucking class. You dumb fucks. That is what we're supposed to be doing is picking material that highlight our students and help them grow in a way and not the pick different place.7 (1h 7m 3s):Well, that's really where in that and the whole situation, I feel like that's, that's what sort of killed me is that there wasn't a place for me. No one cared to create one and you are, I already felt like I don't fit here. I don't belong. And so it's just like that slowly, just really like sinks in. So you've got that going on. You've got your there with 30 actors and it was kind of, honestly, it was sort of like easy to just like hide, you know, unless I'm being called to play the Asian lady on the play. So it's just like a kind of just was like, eh,1 (1h 7m 43s):Yeah, you gave up. But they gave up on at first.7 (1h 7m 48s):It is honestly,1 (1h 7m 50s):We give up when people give up on us first, especially as young people.2 (1h 7m 53s):That's true. That's true. So you're in audition rooms after school. You're, you're feeling like this is depressing. There's 5,000 mess and we all look the same. How, how did, how did you evolve from that to what you're currently doing, which I'm going to go on a limb and say is fulfilling to you artistically fulfilling to you what you're doing?7 (1h 8m 13s):I would say yes. Okay. How did that happen? I mean, after, you know, just deciding I'm not going to go on these calls anymore. I just, like, I was like, okay, then I'll, I'm working in a restaurant. So that's what I'm, I'm gonna work in. I work in restaurants now. That's what I do. And I did that for a while. And then I was just like, okay, but wow, this can't be it. Like, even if you, as an actor, like whatever level you achieve as an actor, I think there's always that part of you. Who's like, yeah, but like, can I talk somewhere?7 (1h 8m 54s):And people just like to listen to me or just let me tell, you know, just get really enthusiastic with storytelling at a party. Or like, whatever. I, I didn't know about the moth or a storytelling or any of that stuff. I really was just like this theater experience, grad school was so bad for me. And I'm too afraid to go to second city to do improv because I had sat through, you know, the first year of friends doing that. And I was like, well, I'm not doing this terrifying. So I thought, Hey, what if I get some actors together?7 (1h 9m 37s):And we will write monologues, which is how I thought of it at the beginning, it'll be like loosely based on a theme and we'll do a monologue show. I think I had just seen Nora Ephron's play love loss and what I wore. And so there's all these women on stage telling this like, story. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not a playwright. I can never like, make this happen necessarily. But like, if there are people on a stage and then they're just like one by one, like telling a story based on a theme, like, oh my gosh, this is revolutionary. I've just invented this whole new thing. So that is sort of where I started.1 (1h 10m 14s):When was that? I
Intro: David Schwimmer, Zazie Beetz, Grace Gummer, and Joe Sikora teach us about sexual harassment, Let Me Run This By You: I think a ghost is peeing in my basement. Fulling mills, alcoholics, Johnny Depp, Britney Spears.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.2 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (39s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina reporting to you on a beautiful spring day. I hope it is a beautiful spring day wherever you are, or if it's not, I hope it will be very soon. We are guests lists in this episode today, as I reported to a couple of weeks ago should happens. We had recorded a great episode with a lovely person and just their audio didn't record at all. You know, just one of those things like internet gremlins, bloody body boss. So we're going to re up with him at some point, but we do have coming down the pike, a few really great episodes, including Glen Davis, the director of Steppenwolf theater company and Trammel Tillman, the actor who plays Mr.2 (1m 28s):Mel chick and severance. And if you listen to this podcast, do you know how much I love severance? I'm really, really excited about that one also Sumia Taka Shima. So we've got some really fantastic interviews lined up. I hope you will be tuning in and the upcoming weeks. And just another note to say, thank you so much for your ongoing support and listenership. We really love doing this podcast. Love making it for you. So we love that you enjoy listening to it. And if you haven't already, you should check out our website, undeniable writers.com and our social media.2 (2m 14s):We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Do you think we should get off of Facebook? Well, do you think we should get on Facebook? Do you think we should get off Twitter? See, I really want to make the great break. I want to get away from social media, but I feel I'm trapped now. You know, because professionally and personally, it's a great way to connect with a lot of people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to connect with, but it's, it's just this equal parts, terrible and wonderful creation, and we're all completely addicted to it. So, you know, who knows what's who knows how this is gonna work out for us?2 (2m 55s):Honestly, it could go either way. We could figure out a way to manage this problem and get on top of it and figure out a way to have enjoyment, but not addiction to social media. Or we could all find ourselves waking up in the middle of a Handmaid's tale. I mean, we are kind of headed that way. It's really looking like people want us to live in Gilliad. And for whatever reason, I just don't feel like people who don't want to live in Gilliad are good at making it so that we don't live in Gilead, myself included. What am I doing? I'm donating money.2 (3m 36s):I mean, fat, lot of good. That really does so, wow. This is taking a bad turn. I don't mean for it to do that. I really want to express my love and appreciation for you all and my excitement about our upcoming episodes and my wish that you connect with us on social media, that's killing us all. And I hope you enjoy today's episode, which we are entitling. I'm going to have to accept that. I will always look like Dora the Explorer at some point, please enjoy Hey, sexual harassment training.2 (4m 41s):So in order for my son to get his work permit, you know, through, you have to go through this training and it said it would take an hour. And I was thinking like, is that really gonna take an hour? It's like one full hour because it's one of these, did you ever have to do it? Yeah. You can't go to the next slide until1 (5m 2s):No, no. They make sure your ass is there for an hour. Gina.2 (5m 6s):That's right. And you know, I do have to say it is something I really miss about California. People complain about the bureaucracy and the, you know, and in this training, you know, it's infantilizing in certain ways. But like, if you have to make things accessible to all people and it's like, if it's infantilizing to you or you already know it, consider yourself lucky. Well also about the people that don't already know, it like1 (5m 37s):Gina, the, the majority of our world, especially those who harass people are in like infants who need hand-holding. So we need to infantilize them because they're fucking infants and they need this shit from the ground. Like, dude, I love it. Like, I love the fact that they won't, that they won't like fast-forward until you wash them. Because you know, these motherfuckers, the people who really need to watch it would fast forward through the whole thing and think they don't need it.2 (6m 9s):Yeah. I mean, maybe we actually need to be infantilizing. I am often accused of, You know, expecting too much from people, you know, like I just, the number of times somebody says to me, yeah. But I just don't think most people will understand that or, you know, think about it that way. Anyway, I completed it. And it was so the one you saw did it have like David Schwimmer and Zazie Beetz and Gracie Gummer I guess that was so sweet. And Joseph Cora,1 (6m 48s):Cora Joseph. I actually watched it with miles when miles, my husband had to do it for his new job. And I was like, I know all the And they must pay so much. I mean, like I either they're doing it for free or,2 (7m 4s):Oh, I assume they were doing it for free. I assumed it was like, we're doing this well. Cause it was through rain, rain made the videos. So I would assume that1 (7m 13s):People2 (7m 14s):Aren't asking rain to pay them1 (7m 16s):Like a million dollar2 (7m 18s):Scale or whatever.1 (7m 21s):No, my fee is actually 1.3 million for this sexual harassment for2 (7m 27s):Video, the second video1 (7m 28s):And tire rape video. Yeah. You're going to pay me anyway.2 (7m 33s):Hey, how are you? I love your crushed blue velvet.1 (7m 37s):Thank you. I, yeah, my, my standard thing now is like, I literally have like 10 meetings a day, which is hilarious. So a lot of it is my students getting ready to launch. So a lot of it is really motivated and highly stressed, 22 year olds that are like, ha who? And I love it. And I love meeting with them and they also are, you know, just exactly where we were the same thing of like, and in fact, a lot of them, yeah. They're ahead of where we were, because at least they know there's a fucking problem,2 (8m 18s):Right? Yeah. There, they don't necessarily have their head all the way up inside of the crevice of their ass. Like I did. Exactly. Well. That's cool. Yeah.1 (8m 29s):So I'm doing that. And like, I don't know. There was something I thought if you, I feel like I haven't talked to you in so long.2 (8m 36s):I agree. Well, I think it's because you have so many meetings. You're busy all day long. Thank goodness you have your new fancy office. How's it working?1 (8m 44s):I do. It's working great. We haven't, I'm in the focus room now because we don't have our rug yet. And our rug will mask all the sound. And also, yeah, I didn't to be in a booth. So we have these tall booths that are, are for doing this kind of thing, but the seat I'm old and the chair is not that comfortable. So I'm in the focus from, there's also a pumping room Moms. I don't go in that room, but there's a refrigerator in there. Like you can put your breast milk.2 (9m 14s):A cool,1 (9m 14s):Hilarious.2 (9m 16s):I pumped in so many disgusting places pumped at Yankee stadium. Yes. Like in the women's bathroom, take me out to the ball game or something like that. I've pumped in many bathrooms. I've pumped in while driving I've driving. Yes. It's, it's hard to be a woman. Did I tell you about Jesse Klein's book?1 (9m 45s):No.2 (9m 46s):Wait, Jesse Klein is a writer and she, she wrote her second book. First one was called. You'll grow out of it. And the second one, this one is called, I'll see myself out. She was the sh writer for inside Amy Schumer. She's now the show runner for, I love that for you, which I want to watch.1 (10m 5s):Yeah. I did not read the books and you love the first one, right? Or2 (10m 9s):I love the first one and I love the second one. The second one. She just, I mean, the thing about, cause she, she just really states a very, very, very true truth, which is that what certain women who are mothers just don't see a lot of like their experience of motherhood reflected in, in, Out there. Right. When I was pregnant with my first child, I read a book called the girlfriend's guide to having a baby. I picked this, it talked about infantilizing and finalizing only named book title, you know, from the other options because the other ones seemed, if you can believe even cornea or even worse in my lasting impression.2 (11m 1s):I mean, there was not that it was all terrible. I read that and I read a Jenny McCarthy book.1 (11m 5s):I was going to say, did you read the Jenny? That was your option.2 (11m 9s):That was my options. And my lasting impression of the girlfriend's guide book was like, it was a lot about how you were going to lose the weight after the baby. And her thing was like, this was her advice at the beginning of the week, make an enormous vegetable stew. And every time you're hungry, grab yourself a cup of this tasteless flavorless calorie list.1 (11m 40s):Oh my2 (11m 41s):God. And my ass, I did try to do it. I tried for like, cause I came home and I was like, oh, I still am six months pregnant. It looks like. So I, at that time, in my life, it was very concerned about getting back to my pre-baby weight, which never happens for most of us. And, and I basically, while I was nursing, I basically starved myself on this vegetable route. And all of this is to say, Jesse Klein says the unsayable. She speaks the taboos of like, listen, sometimes you regret being a mom. There are days where you're like, it wasn't worth it the other days where you say it was, but you're not allowed to ever feel like what gets reflected back to us as like, you know, you're so lucky.2 (12m 29s):It's a sh it's a miracle you should just forever be grateful for.1 (12m 34s):Well, the other thing that I'm noticing is, and you know, it's apropos mother's day just happened. Right? So I'm also noticing that there are, there's another school of people that are saying that our childless women are childless people, but mostly childless women that I know that are like, well, they did it to themselves. So like, I don't feel bad for them. And I don't have that feeling. I don't have kids, but I, I definitely feel like it is a choice for most people to have a kid. And I mean, if our government has its way, it will be a choice. Right. It'll be just your forest, but most people have a choice. And so, but just because you make a choice, this is my other thing.1 (13m 15s):And it's the same with like, people that, you know, talk about like people choosing to do drugs and choosing just because someone makes a choice does not mean that they are, they, they should deserve to suffer in some horrible way. If they're not happy with the choice or they've made a choice that on some days they feel like it wasn't the right choice. So I feel like to say like, oh, F mothers breeders and all that stuff. That is also for me not okay, because what it is saying is that right? Like, because you made this choice at a given point in your life, you now are like deserve any bad thing that comes from that choice.1 (13m 54s):And I don't believe, I feel three the best they can every day, whether it's a kid or whatever to get through. And so I think that's the backlash of, you know, the opposite of, of the childless movement, which is like people who choose to have children are somehow also for, I don't know.2 (14m 14s):Yeah. Well, we're all assholes. This is the point1 (14m 18s):Your essay was asshole. Just like us. So2 (14m 21s):That's like us, they are us. We are the assholes, all, every single one of us. So yeah. I, I mean, I totally understand. I see all sides of that argument. I see. I can understand why women who don't have want to have children feel, I understand why they are. They feel angry because they are made to feel like there's something wrong with them by multiple people, including therapists. And as you experienced seemingly benign comments that people think just being, I mean, do you get, do you get a lot of flack about not having kids? No.1 (14m 56s):I think I would, if my parents were alive, so I'm kind of glad they're dead on that way. And then also, because, because it would, my mom, well, the thing is that my mom, when I was taking care of her, the funny story is that she was pressuring me to have kids with miles and we had just gotten married and she was dying and it was not the right time clearly. And then towards the end, after when she was really dying, dying, and I was taking care of her and I was like, I would like boss her around because she wouldn't do what I said. I was like, mom, you cannot do this. You can not do that. Like I was so worried about her that I became a giant pain in the ass and she was like, maybe it's better. You don't have kids2 (15m 51s):For the last two years since we got actually, before we got Wallace, the dog, we had Millie the rabbit.1 (15m 59s):I2 (16m 1s):Was a sad APOC with Millie of the rabbit. My son wanted a rabbit. I said, no, my husband bought it when I was out of town. And I knew, yeah, I know I went out of town.1 (16m 16s):Well, it didn't, you do get a dog in Oakland when, when Aaron was out of town and you,2 (16m 21s):He wasn't out of town. I was just like on a walk with my friend that I came home with a dog. Yes.1 (16m 25s):And he said, and he said, something happened. And he said, did you meet bill Cosby? Yeah.2 (16m 29s):And she thought, I said, you have to come home because there's somebody I want you to meet. And all he could imagine it was that it was bill cost. Right? Yeah. Got it. Yeah. He would have been worried. So yeah. So when my son had Millie the rabbit, you know, he was learning what it means to take care of another creature. And he wasn't always that excited to take care of her. And one of the things that he did was let her free roam around certain places, which was against the rules. And one of the places that she free roamed was in our basement, which meant that she peed and pooped.2 (17m 9s):And we're, you know, years later we're still finding a little thing. Anyway, this meant that when we got Wallace, the dog and he went into the basement, he immediately peed off1 (17m 20s):All the things.2 (17m 21s):Correct. And so we stopped letting him go into the basement. I bought a case of this urine foam deodorizer shit. Cause we had rugs down there. That's in work. We threw the rugs away. We got carpet tiles. The idea like if it happens in one place we can clean or, or get rid of this one tile when I have to replace a whole rug. And that dog has not to, my knowledge has not been in the basement for at least a year. And it still smells like pee. We have steam cleaned and, and foam till the cows come up. When I tell you this is something I have dealt with every single day, since we've basically, since we've lived here, I it's no exaggeration.2 (18m 9s):And So what it is is my obsession. My obsessionality focuses on one of these things. All my energy gets put into this. When we lived in New York, it was the rats and the mice. Now it's the P So I, I approached this, like I am going to dominate the S P smell. Then my life is going to be complete. And I finally did it. I S I said, there's no more cleaning these carpet tiles. We've got to take them all up, which was very difficult to do. And we took them all up. I was so proud because I had to really face it, you know, getting down on my hands and knees.2 (18m 51s):I had to really contend with that. Smelling P is like the worst thing for me. I was so proud of myself, my two sons and I, we did all of the work. It didn't smell like pee last night for the very first time the whole family hung out in the basement because we have fun stuff to do down there. We've got a ping pong table and gymnastics equipment and workout stuff. And my daughter, and has been worked down there and I'm like, I'm going to join them. It doesn't suck to be in the basement anymore. We're having a great time. I felt like I was the, one of those prescription commercials. The montage1 (19m 27s):With the medicines like called like rejuvenate X or like Family.2 (19m 33s):I'm throwing my head back and laughing. And we're just enjoying this, having a grand old time. And I decided I'm going to move the laundry along. Cause our laundry is down there. And I pick up this thing of clean wash and stuff. I start folding. I pick up one, I smell pee.1 (19m 55s):Oh my God. Oh my God.2 (19m 57s):And I looked down and the laundry basket that it was put in was a cloth basket all around the bottom. I see it like a four inch ring of yellow around the bottom of my laundry basket. The basket. Well, here are my options for what happened. A Wallace knows how to open the door and goes downstairs to pee. When nobody's looking, it seems unlikely B he somehow gets down there when somebody forgets to close the door. But even then it seems unlikely. Cause I wouldn't. I would know if that happened with any frequency.2 (20m 40s):See, There's a ghost peeing in my Apigee1 (20m 47s):Ghost.2 (20m 48s):Migos1 (20m 49s):Unlikely,2 (20m 51s):Unlikely.1 (20m 54s):I2 (20m 54s):S I F I felt like I was going crazy. I felt last night with this issue, I thought I'll never be free from this.1 (21m 4s):You're like Plagued with the P.2 (21m 7s):And you know, the street that we live on is called fulling mill and a fulling mill is refers to a place where in the process of creating Textiles, they did something with the sh the wool and the S and it had to be cleaned with urine1 (21m 29s):Shuts your mouth this way.2 (21m 32s):Yes. Ma'am yes. Ma'am this entire area. A little clock that I live1 (21m 37s):On2 (21m 39s):Was, is named for what it was. And this one, this town was founded in the 17 hundreds, which was the place down by the water where they cleaned, wash the wool with urine, for whatever reason. Yeah. I mean, could it be that we are just dealing with 300 years Of1 (21m 60s):P well,2 (22m 1s):Hasn't seen, right.1 (22m 2s):I know I it's one of your kids pig and the baskets.2 (22m 6s):I mean, well, in this particular basket, it was around the outside of it.1 (22m 11s):No. So Sue Wallace picked up the leg. We put, what was her2 (22m 17s):Around it? Not just like in one spot,1 (22m 20s):It doesn't make any sense. So we have no answers still.2 (22m 24s):I have no answers. I threw away the laundry basket and it doesn't smell like pee down there any more. But I just, I just realized like, okay, well, this is where it's about my obsession and my intolerance, right? When we lived in New York, I was so traumatized by the rats and the mice. And I just became so deeply intolerant. And that's how it works with fears, as you know, oh,1 (22m 49s):The2 (22m 50s):More you back away from it, the worse it is. Right.1 (22m 53s):And also it's, you're like super, what was it? It was, it's not entirely, it's not intolerant. It's also unreasonable. We become totally on it is an intolerant, but it's like, we become unreasonable about our willingness not to let go of the thing. Like, I, I get it. I've been there when I am. I've been there. But like, what I'm really anointed is is that you're not telling me the answer to what happened. We don't know2 (23m 20s):Girl. I do not know. I don't know.1 (23m 24s):No.2 (23m 25s):No.1 (23m 26s):Okay. So it hasn't flooded. You've never had, so we just don't know how and no other, where there any other laundry baskets in the basement that have this problem?2 (23m 36s):No. Okay. Here's what all allow for allow for This possible, even though the dog never pees inside the house, to my knowledge, you know, I mean, he's two years old now. He really, to my knowledge, hasn't done it in at least a year. Maybe at some point, one of this basket was in my daughter's room. He sometimes sleeps in there, but, but even then I felt like I would have smelled it when I walked in the room,1 (24m 3s):I feel like he would have done it. Why around the basket, this doesn't make any sense.2 (24m 7s):It makes no sense. It makes no sense. I'm choosing to think about it. Like, yeah, there's, there's, there's the logistical practical thing of like, figuring out what happened and try not to let it happen again. But then there's the other, perhaps more important thing, which is, well, it's the, if you're going to pick this to be your thing, you know, you're always going to be vexed by it. That's what I'm, that's what I, it just didn't occur to me really until last night. Like, I'm, there's a part of this that I am doing to myself. Yes. It's P whatever, like we clean it and we move on. Right.1 (24m 42s):So, you know, it is, it is sort of, to me what the P represents in terms of, for me, it's a very, I have a dog that is a very, very bad dog. And she, what is it? What does it mean? If I have a very bad dog? What does it mean that if my dog is not civilized and behaved or doesn't give a shit about following rules, or it means that I have done something wrong and I cannot get clean. Like, it just it's, it cannot, I cannot get clean. Like that is the feeling is I can not, I can never do it. Right. I can never have a perfect dog.1 (25m 23s):And why, why other people seem to, I can't get my dog to be perfect. And it is, it becomes an obsession obsession. So like, my dog got put in timeout, you know, a daycare and like, I could not get over it. I was like, why? I was like, wait, what does this mean? Like I had a whole thing and she has not been back to daycare sentence because I'm like, I cannot risk her going. And then, then she got kennel cough, which is the real reason. And it's expensive as hell. But underneath there is this thing of like, I do not want to deal with my dog getting a bad report every time that she did something rotten and went to time out, time out, which is like five minutes alone with a person it's not even a thing, but like, it is a thing to me.1 (26m 6s):So I get it. And I also do think that it's, I have to I'm of two minds, right? Cause like I'm of the mystery, true crime mind, like I'm trying to figure out. And the, the, and the other mind is the psychological realism. Mine. That's like, no, this is about you and your need to want to be perfect, you know, and want to have a perfect basement where you can have the perfect pharmaceutical commercial.2 (26m 31s):Yes. And you know what also just drives me nuts about myself is that every time I have this moment, I have a satisfying moment like that. I can't really load into like, and so this is how it's always going to be now. I really1 (26m 49s):Believe2 (26m 50s):This is how it's supposed to be. And it's like, and I finally figured out how to do it as if any happy moment isn't just fleeting or, you know, lasts for however long it lasts. Yeah.1 (27m 0s):Right. And we're told that they, you know, like they do and that, you know, it's just like every, any time I cut my hair, I'm looking at my neck. It's always turns into Dora the Explorer hair. I cannot stop my hair for being Dora the Explorer. And it's just because it's thick. So she can, she razors it's down. She does all the things. But as soon as it starts to grow, it is Dora the Explorer hair. And I am just going to have to embrace the door or the hair or2 (27m 32s):Jumps, or1 (27m 33s):Just shaved my head.2 (27m 35s):And also, I mean, take heart because most people who are going through menopause start really losing their hair. So you're still growing loud and proud.1 (27m 45s):It's like a triangle head. I just said, yeah,2 (27m 48s):I know. I get the same thing. It's just1 (27m 50s):Thick. And like, what is happening? Oh yeah. Anyway,2 (27m 54s):How much would she charge if you just asked every couple of weeks to go back in just for a quick ride?1 (27m 57s):Sure. I could do that. I could do that. And then, but then, then I have to confront my fear of breaking the salon chair. Remember that whole fear. I have all these fears,2 (28m 6s):But you've sat in that chair and it didn't break. So1 (28m 9s):No, no, it's going to be fine.2 (28m 10s):I think you're good.1 (28m 11s):I'm going to be good. I'm going to be okay. So that's okay. So, but the other thing I have to say is like speaking of urine is I had a friend in high school who's and this is like pretty sad, but her dad was a drunk and every night he would drink and every night he would pee in the hamper because he would think it was the toilet. So he would walk to the, so this reminded me of that, of like, he was so wasted in the night, in the dark and he would get up in a drunken stupor every night. And then I was like, well, why don't you start? Like, I just, now I'm like, why didn't they move the hamper? Or first of all, why they get his ass out of, to rehab. But like, that's the Real underlying question, but like, why not move the hamper and like put a bowl or something.2 (28m 58s):That's an interesting that, that I don't know how that family responded to it. But like, but that way of thinking about it too, like, that's exactly what I would be thinking. Well, I just have to move the hamper.1 (29m 11s):That's also enable whole fucking bright.2 (29m 13s):Right, right. That is a sad story.1 (29m 17s):It happens a lot where people pee in corners and things. And I had died of a brain aneurysm later, but I had a friend who got so wasted. They literally shit in someone's houseplant. And didn't2 (29m 35s):Inside the house.1 (29m 36s):Yes. He tells, he tells a story about it and he, yeah, he shit in his, he was drunk and shit in, or maybe it was high. He was on drugs, something was wrong. And he found out later cause his friend I think told him,2 (29m 53s):Yeah. Right. It's like, Hey buddy, we gotta have a talk. I mean, I'm willing to put up with a lot, but it's shitting in my plants, shipment my ficus. That's where I got to draw the line.1 (30m 6s):All the2 (30m 6s):Things that it is likely. And by the way, I mean, I ever since writing the essay, like I can't pay any more attention to this Johnny Depp thing and whatever it does come my way. It's just sounds like it's like a bunch of fecal matter. And1 (30m 21s):Okay. So I had2 (30m 22s):None1 (30m 23s):After I read your essay, I was like, okay, let me just check it out. And I was at my friend Jesus house and she was like, you've got to listen. She had like it T vote or something. And she's like, I saved this for you to listen to, because I literally could not understand what he was saying. And I said what? She said, no, it is the most at the same time. And I, and I agree, monotonous mixed with mumble dialogue mix with circular logic, mixed with an effect mixed with pretend and mixed with benzodiazepines. I think he's on to keep him sober and like quote sober.1 (31m 4s):I literally thought, oh, this is a technique he's using to like lawless all into believing, whatever. He, it's so hard to track that the brain goes, just let it go. Like don't even2 (31m 20s):Right. Right. And he gets that privilege because, or he has traditionally because of his looks and his status. Yeah. Oh my God. I speak about looks and status. We predicted it. Brittany Spears is back on her bullshit posting nude selfies. I'm the girl is sick. The woman is sick. And I'm not saying she needs to have whatever, some draconian like guardianship, but she's, but now we know why, because she won't take her GED medicine because people like to feel manic. Right.1 (31m 51s):And also it's going2 (31m 52s):To end badly. It's going to end badly1 (31m 53s):And badly. And also the thing I, our friend on social media, Jimmy McDermott posted. Cause I posted like, you know, I want to write a pilot about this trial. And I said, but I'm going to like totally redo the costuming and the SATs. And then Jimmy mid-term had said, yeah, Johnny tap literally looks like he's the tour bus driver of the Al Capone tour in Chicago. Like he2 (32m 16s):Got, he1 (32m 17s):Does like2 (32m 18s):Three1 (32m 18s):Piece what's happening. So anyway, regardless of that, I just want to say like, don't the mumbling and the that's all for me. And this sort of smiling is so indicative of a manipulative, like person that has gotten away with so much shit. I don't care what you think of him in her. I mean, I, of course I care, but like my, my thing is always from the psychological point of view of what is coming across and what is the speaker trying to do either consciously or unconsciously. And my thing is he is trying to lull us into believing that everything's, he's saying, it's just, it's just so neither here nor there it's just so it's and I'm like, okay.1 (33m 3s):And she says, she says, dad, who, by the way, is recovering from a stroke, said, why won't this guy just shut the fuck up? What is he saying? And I said, exactly, exactly. Well, okay, well,2 (33m 18s):But, but silver lining there Jesus' dad was reading better. He's getting out amazing.1 (33m 23s):I just shut up and I was like, exactly,2 (33m 26s):Exactly, exactly. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Leak It All, the gumbo of bad decisions.Let Me Run This By You: Overcoming insecurities, chasing hope, staying curious, and Marilyn Monroe. Interview: A Maze by Rob Handel, Just Theatre, New College of Florida, Asolo Repertory Theatre, SF State, playwriting MFAs, Attempts on Her Life by Martin Crimp, Soho Rep, North Oakland, The Civilians, Yale, UCSD, Lincoln Center Directors Lab, underground poker games, the NYC Tombs, Playwrights Foundation, Annie Baker, Sam Hunter, Zakiyyah Alexander, Soho Rep Writer Director Lab, Adam Bock, Shotgun Players, Anne Washburn, The Bacchae, Eureka Day, left wing anti-vaxxers, Ben Brantley, writing during the pandemic, a pilot about a tech start up run by altruistic vampires, Mike Schur, What We Do In The Shadows, Aurora Theatre Company.
Intro: It's a bad idea not to pay your student loans, The Odd Couple, Severance, chicken nugget bowls, Let Me Run This By You: Google is bullying Gina. What's your email archive strategy? We are all mostly old because the window of youth is shockingly short. Some of your dreams are NOT out of reach.Interview: We talk to T.J. Harris about coming to acting later in life, having a background in business, having a close-knit cohort, Title IX investigations, being the victim of racial profiling while at school, the paradox of slightly shy kids being told they were shy so often that they become even more withdrawn, Our Lady of Kibeho, Neighborhood 3: Requisition of Doom, Sean Parris, Chris Anthony.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.4 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.4 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (34s):Anyway, so I had to like get him out of the house and like men are slow and I just, it's just, it's a really no win situation. So anyway. Hello. Hello Busy. I've been busy. We've all been busy.2 (51s):We have been doing the damn thing. Haven't we?1 (55s):Yeah.2 (56s):Yeah. I have spent the last, what feels like a week. Yeah. I think it's been a week simply reviewing every single dollar 20, 21, like literally and putting it in a spreadsheet, literally like can donuts, can you1 (1m 18s):Keep it because you can write off a lot2 (1m 20s):Of new machine. Yeah. That's yeah. That's, that's the point of it is to find everything that, that can be written off, but it's, you know, and I'm hunched and my back and my eyes strain, and it's just like, oh my God, Calgon, take me away.1 (1m 38s):Yeah. I mean, I think that taxes are one of those things where if you do them right, and legally it's a lot of work, right? It's like,2 (1m 47s):You want to skim and1 (1m 48s):Be shady, which I don't recommend, because guess what? The IRS is only job is to get your money. Like, that's their only job. They don't have any other purpose on the planet. So like, if you think that's not their job, you're wrong. But anyway, so if you do it right, like you are, it's a lot of freaking work and it also is painstaking.2 (2m 12s):And I, and, and it's painstaking. And I think, you know, to, to, to find a silver lining in it, like, I'm so glad I don't have a full-time job because this is the kind of thing that literally, I don't know how people, when it's, when everybody works, how they do it it's1 (2m 35s):Well, you can't. I mean, I think it's, that's why people end up in trouble. Like, that's why people end up trying to skin his scam or not doing them and being like, you know what, I'm going to pass on all this. I'm just going to hope for them. And like, that's what I did with my student loans, because I didn't want to, and that's not even as hard as taxes, but I just like, couldn't cope with the ins and outs of doing the work to defer or like make deals, or like get my payments lower. And thus, I had a sheriff show up at my apartment. Like that is where you're headed. You don't know that story. Oh, all right. So I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to not pay my student loans.1 (3m 15s):I mean, I didn't really have the money, but I also didn't realize that my student loans were private student loans. Oh boy. So when they're private, you're in big trouble, because guess what? It's a bank that wants their money. It's not the government who has a million other things to do. Right. So the bank is like, no, we want our money. And I did that. Know that the bank hires the Sheriff's department to serve papers when you are being sued for your private loans. So one day I am N in Rogers park at my thinking, you know, nothing of it. Like I, I owed 50 grand and I to like four different banks. Right. It's always, and they sell them to other people and it's a big scam.1 (3m 56s):Right. Okay. Fine. But I'm like going about my business thinking, but feeling bad, but like, feeling like, ah, fuck it. Like, who cares? Well, they care. Wait,2 (4m 7s):How long were you not paying them1 (4m 9s):For a couple of years? Maybe I just said, forget it in 15, 20, 15. I said, no more. And then in 27, 20 17, I'm literally, I kept getting calls. They started calling miles and I was just the guy just pay no attention. Miles, like pay no attention. And of course he's like so trusting. He was like, okay, I'll pay no attention. I'll compartmentalize. And okay. So one day there's a, our buzzer goes off and I'm like, hello. Cause no one ever. He's like, this is the Sheriff's department. Are you Jennifer Bosworth? And I was like, and then I realized, I really quickly, your mind goes, oh, what have I done wrong?1 (4m 50s):Right. And it focuses it on the thing. Cause you know what you've done right. Or what I've done wrong. And I'm like, oh, my here is the PA the Piper or the pied Piper or whoever is coming to collect chickens, home to roost all the things. And I was like, and I just said, I have a lawyer go away. And he goes, no, we just, we just want to give you these papers. Like we have to give you these papers. I'm like, no, I have a lawyer go away. Which is the wrong thing to do.2 (5m 19s):What also, what was your logic there? I have a lawyer. Okay.1 (5m 23s):There was no logic. I would say it was the opposite of logic is what's going on. So I see that they go away because, and so they're paid by the bank. So they just hire the Sheriff's department to serve people. I did not know that it's like, they, they you're there for hire basically the Sheriff's department. So they go and they serve people and they could not serve me. But then what it did was it was really actually a great kick in the pants because I was like, oh, I have a court date now. So no. So what I did was I said, okay, let me find it. So then I was like, I need a lawyer. So, and then on my 43rd birthday or 42nd, 42nd birthday.1 (6m 10s):Yeah. 42nd birthday. I went to the lawyer. I found this lawyer fucking brilliant. I can't remember her name right now. She was like legally blonde. She had these long pink nails and her only job was to get people off student loans and, and either file bankruptcy or figure out a way to talk. The loan people doubt. She was a bad-ass and I went there and I was like crying. And I was like, look. And she was like, oh, $50,000. That's nothing. And I was like, oh, she's like, I got people that I was, you know, 600,000 in medical school loans,2 (6m 43s):Medical school, that's1 (6m 45s):All. But also she goes, yeah, the private loans they get ya, you know? So, so she, she, okay. So she said, I said, well, what do I do? I can't remember her name. She was so awesome. And I, and she's like, well, do you have the money? I'm like, well, look, I have this inheritance. She's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Then we can't declare bankruptcy because they'll go after your inheritance. I was like, oh, hell to the, no. So she's like, all right, well, we'll try to get him down. So she reduced $50,000 to $25,000 for a fee of $3,000 and went to court and was like, you know, so she talked them down. She's like, you're getting nothing. If you don't take this 25,000, she's like, can you get me 25,000?1 (7m 27s):I'm like, sure. So I, then it happened to be, we were selling the house around that time. Anyway, I got the money and then my life has, but my credit was literally if a here's what people don't understand. It's like, it may be stupid, but the credit matters. But if you want to live somewhere,2 (7m 46s):Right? Like if you want to be on the grid,1 (7m 49s):If you want to like have a house that is, if you ever want to apply for apartment, if you ever want to it matters. I know it shouldn't. I always tell my students like, yeah, all this shit shouldn't matter, but it does everyone. It does. I hate the fact that it does, but let's be honest about the truth here. Let's just get real. So my, my credit now, what my credit was so low, I can't remember what it was. And I was like, oh, that's not so bad. And my friend was like, that's the worst credit you're going to have? And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I didn't understand the scale. Right? Like I was like, oh, five 40 isn't bad. Or five, some days she was like, that's like the worst. So now my credit is seven 80.1 (8m 30s):Oh no, no. I got it. All of it is seven 50 because I paid it off. And like, I don't, we don't have any debt. Thank God credit card wise. Oh, because vials is, if, if it were up to me, I probably have debt up to my eyeballs, unfortunately. But my partner is like, oh no, no, no. He's really good with that. Thank God. Oh boy. Cause I have some problems because my parents never taught me shit. You know? So no, all this to say, how did this come up?2 (8m 58s):Because we were talking about,1 (8m 60s):Sorry.2 (9m 1s):Okay. But so many things about your story. First of all, it was $50,000. Just the amount you owed from the time that you stopped paying, or are you saying it has a total of $50,000?1 (9m 15s):No, I had more than that. So I had had 80 and I had paid 30 of it off because I went to school like in oh eight. I graduated. So it's not like a long time. So I had 50, 80,000 total. I had paid 30 somehow some way and all those years around there. And then I had 50 left. Yeah. And I was used to pay the 50, but then I2 (9m 38s):Just, just asking, but like, could anybody go to a lawyer and say, reduce my,1 (9m 45s):Yeah. That's their whole, because here's what the, yes, this is what they don't tell you is that2 (9m 50s):I feel like such an asshole. Right?1 (9m 54s):Doris is literally overdosing on melatonin. Hold on. Okay.2 (9m 58s):Oh my God. I can't believe I could have. I just pay. All of my students will never1 (10m 6s):Happen again. Come2 (10m 7s):Here, Come here. I just can't believe I've paid every penny of my student loans. What is wrong with me? I'm just the worst partner ever. Sorry. No, you're not. You're not the worst person. She meets me. And I eat1 (10m 31s):That2 (10m 32s):Thing away from her and I gave her all kinds of,1 (10m 35s):Okay. So yeah. You don't feel like an asshole because here's the thing. They never tell you this, that you can everything's negotiable in this country. Okay. Every single thing is negotiable. Everything's a business deal. Everything can be reduced. Why? Because there's no set rate for anything that's capitalism. So you, you, you can charge whatever you want. And then it's negotiable. So what she told me was these companies, these banks, they're banks, they're not companies. I mean, they're banks. These banks know that they will get nothing. If someone declares bankruptcy. Okay. So they don't know that I had this inheritance, this, you know, but they, they know that most people say F you I'm part of capitalism is bankruptcy.1 (11m 22s):I'm declaring bankruptcy. You get $0. So they want anything. They'll take pennies on the goddamn dollar. So she's like, oh no. And it's a fine line. And that's why you need a lawyer to go to court and say, my client has nothing. So if you want anything, she'd lucked into 25 grand. She can, she can scrape by twenty-five grand. You want that? Or you want Jack shit. And then they'll say, give me the 25 grand.2 (11m 45s):Right? Right. Well, I, I, it doesn't matter. Now I had done this, you know, 10 years ago. I mean, because the thing is, of course, like you take, you borrow $50,000 and you pay 300, basically.1 (11m 58s):It's ridiculous. Especially with private loans. Ridiculous.2 (12m 3s):That's what, and that's what I had. I had a lot of problems, but the other thing that's so striking about your stories, the moment when you start, when you said you had this moment in 2015, where you said, fuck it. I just, that gave me such a thrill. Like if you would, just because the reason I couldn't do that is I would think about it every second of the day.1 (12m 25s):I would have. Yeah. Because my mom was my co-signer, but that lady was dead. So I was like, what are they going to do? Cause she was really, I was more afraid of my mother than the federal and then the, then the bank and the government. So the private loans and the government. So I, if she was alive, you bet your ass. I would have been paying those motherfuckers off2 (12m 45s):Of my loans for social work school had to have a co-signer of my father-in-law. And for some reason that I never did get to the bottom of Wells Fargo. If I was one day late for a payment, they wouldn't even call me or contact me in any way. They just immediately, it was all on him. Yes. And he would of course call me the second that they called him. And it was so embarrassing every time I'd be like, I mean, it happened like, I want to say it happened five or six1 (13m 19s):Times. That is so easy to do.2 (13m 22s):It's silly. But1 (13m 24s):It's2 (13m 24s):Also like, this is the mafia. Like you're you're one day late in your payment and you don't say, Hey, could you pay me? You just go, do you just threaten somebody to break?1 (13m 33s):Yeah, it's a psychological tactic. It's like some real Scientology bullshit.2 (13m 38s):It was horrible. Horrible, horrible. So if you have a few, can't pay your student loans. If you're listening to this and you cannot pay your student loans, call a lawyer,1 (13m 52s):Let me run this by you.2 (13m 58s):And then I'm also doing another, another way in which I'm an obsessive rural follower is that Google sent me a message saying, I have exceeded my storage limit by 380%. And if that, if I listen, anybody could, anybody can bully me. I am so easily bullied. It said, if you don't, if you don't pay more for storage or get rid of some of what you have, you will no longer be able to send or receive emails. So I spent five hours yesterday going through1 (14m 34s):A bad idea in some it's2 (14m 36s):Not about idea. Well, I've got it down. Sorry. I was, I was out, I was using 385%. I'm down to 340% after deleting probably 10,000 emails1 (14m 49s):With like, is it true? What they're saying?2 (14m 52s):I don't know. All I know is that when I log onto my email and I see a big red line across the top,1 (14m 60s):I can't,2 (15m 1s):I can't take it. I can't take the red line, but upside, it has been a walk down memory lane, you know, because things, I mean, people I'm having email exchanges with, it seems sort of intimate. And I'm like, I have no idea who that person is. Or like reading email. I looked for the oldest email I have from you, which on this, on this, my Gmail is from 2008. And just, you know, whatever, like you were talking about your job. And I was talking about my job and I found the, the engagement announcement. Yeah.1 (15m 40s):That's2 (15m 40s):Kind of fun too. And, and also I realized I had thousands of emails that I just simply don't need. Like I keep every email. Do you keep all of your emails?1 (15m 51s):No. So I I'm so weird. I never have more than zero unread in my inbox.2 (15m 59s):Well, wait, did I just mean you archives of metal?1 (16m 3s):No, I just delete them. Not all the good one. No, no, no, no. I, I don't, I I'm terrible that I don't know how to do shit, so I don't put them in folders or anything like that or archive.2 (16m 18s):And then you have1 (16m 19s):Zero2 (16m 20s):Emails.1 (16m 21s):Yeah. It's because I have no life maybe. And I just,2 (16m 25s):The chairman for you have a full life and now you don't have any of your emails back from you. Don't1 (16m 30s):You know, I have that.2 (16m 32s):Well, how do you have them?1 (16m 34s):I erased the ones as they come in that are know that I don't know longer that have attachments and no longer need.2 (16m 41s):Okay.1 (16m 42s):So I manage my box. So here's the thing I will run out of storage. It's just that I don't think I get a lot of emails. I don't, I actually don't like, I'm always saying, I want more emails. I'm like the only person that wants them. I'm so like, I love paperwork and I love emails. And so I don't know. I'm always like no one ever emails me. It's so weird. But anyway, the pain is,2 (17m 5s):It's not possible that no one ever emails. You Did. The thing that I did, which is I accidentally deleted all my emails from1 (17m 15s):No, I remember that. That was hilarious. And now,2 (17m 19s):For example,1 (17m 20s):So right now I have zero emails, unread, unread,2 (17m 26s):Unread, you keep everything in your inbox.1 (17m 29s):Yeah. You know me, my desktop. How2 (17m 33s):Many emails are in your inbox? Just1 (17m 38s):30,000. I mean read 30,035.2 (17m 44s):Okay. Well what do you do when you have to find?1 (17m 50s):Well, that's why I can't never find my, Why you don't say why it happened. You have ISO every time you send me, it's bad. But miles miles was like, cause now miles is really into email because of his job for the last six months, his new job. And he's like, but you have no full zero four.2 (18m 8s):No, but zero folders. My shoulder, my shoulders are getting so tough.1 (18m 16s):So, Okay. So anyway, it beans, like I'm not saying I have a good system. Like I don't have a good system. I have no system. But what it is is I'm just proud. I don't have like, I'm really judgy about people that have a lot of unread emails. So like literally if I walk by and coworking and I see someone's inbox has like 12,000 unread, I go, oh God, I go, nothing, nothing, nothing little do they know? I have not one fucking folders. So I can't pay,2 (18m 47s):I need to start in a production of the odd couple because I am.1 (18m 54s):I know I look at your, I don't even know how you make. I look at our joint email. I don't know what these folders mean. I don't know what there's like sub folders to me. I'm like,2 (19m 6s):Now that you're, now that we're discussing this, I'm realizing another fake fakery folders actually don't have any meaning because actually, well, because actually, if you wanted to find an email,1 (19m 22s):This is like from2 (19m 23s):Right. If you want to find an email from target, you can just Google. I mean, you can just search.1 (19m 29s):Yes. But the problem is if you have 4,000, let me run this by you emails. So that is my, so I need you to set it up. I thought I had set it up for, for my, let me run this links. No. So what I did was set up a ma a new G Gmail account2 (19m 47s):And it's not1 (19m 48s):Good. It's not fair. So the bottom line is, I don't think my system is great, but what I think is I like I Le well, I'm weird in that. I like having no unread emails, but at the same time, I don't feel like people are emailing me enough.2 (20m 3s):We did a freaky Friday. You and me and you were thrust into my life. And I was thrusted. I think that I would immediately feel relieved because I feel like you don't necessarily carry around you. I mean, you have a lot of stuff that you have to carry around, but you don't necessarily carry around this need to do everything. Perfect.1 (20m 27s):Oh, no. And I think that comes, I swear to God. A lot of it is with kids, because if you fuck up with yourself, okay, so you're a fuck up. But if you are a parent of three children and you don't, you fuck up, you end up like a lot of people we know, which is, and the kids ended up like, like we, us and people, we know we don't like, so that is, I feel like if I was dropped in. So, so I feel like if I was dropped into your life, I would like it. Cause you have like all this space Around and everything.2 (21m 0s):And my kids would love it because you're fun. And that's, that's like, that's like the dynamic, that's the thing in our house. It's like, mom's no fun. Mom is doing, she's got the rules. She's1 (21m 12s):No, no, I'd be like, all right, let's do, let's eat fried food. This would be my thing. I'd be like, Eat fried food. And I can't eat that anymore. But if I dropped into your life, I could write, I could eat that. And I would say, okay, this is what I used to eat before my hurt. Like what completely I would have. I was thinking about the other day, something called a chicken nugget bowls. Okay. Which was, I would a2 (21m 37s):Bowl of chicken nuggets1 (21m 39s):Mixed with, okay. So I'd go to trader Joe's and get the chicken nuggets and then bake those. And then their, their potatoes, fries, fries, and th and literally dump a bunch of that in a bowl, put some ketchup and mix it all up and just have like a chicken nugget fry. But that's not good for you, by the way.2 (22m 2s):Why was it appealing to put it in a bowl? Instead of1 (22m 5s):I liked the combo of the two together and like the ketchup was the glue that held it all together. And I loved that, but the problem was I gained a lot of weight and then my heart went down. You can't really2 (22m 18s):Mean the thing1 (22m 20s):About adulthood, the shit you really like can not be maintained if you want to live.2 (22m 25s):I mean, it's such a bummer. I recently realized that youth really only lasts for 25 years. So, so, so everybody is mostly old, right? Like everybody's friends, the majority of their life that didn't occur to me for some reason, I think because we're so youth obsessed in this culture, I had this way of fit, not logically, but like I had this way of thinking about it. Like it's this long epoch of life, but really1 (22m 59s):You're old for a very long time. And then you die.2 (23m 2s):And then you're also very young for a period of time. So the, the period of time where you're autonomous and1 (23m 14s):We also missed it.2 (23m 16s):And then we were just walking around, feeling horrible about ourselves.1 (23m 19s):That is such a waste. Right? The other thing I was going to tell you, I have a really good story to tell you about someone we know that I can share, because it's a good story. This is a story about why it's good. That life can be good. Okay. I'm teaching at DePaul, our Alma mater, as you know, if you listen to the show, okay. I teach fourth year BFA actors on zoom, which I wasn't supposed to, but I got special and that's a whole nother Oprah and itself. But so I have students and one of my things is we write pitch letters. I help them. Cause that's my jam. I love doing that. Even if it's a pitch letter for them, for a tour to a rep, to a producer, whatever we write these like bio pitch letters.1 (24m 3s):Okay, fine. So I had this student, I still have the student and he's a wonderful youngster. And he's like talking his dream. This is so crazy. His dream is to be in the Mar somehow in the Marvel universe. Okay. Like he wants his dream is to be in a movie, a Marvel movie. But of course he wants a foot in the door, anything. And he goes, and I said, okay, well, like why we're developing his pitch letter with the class. Everyone takes turns, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I would really like the career of this guy that I, that I've heard about named Sean Gunn. I'm like, wait,2 (24m 37s):Oh my God.1 (24m 39s):He said, he said, I know he went to the theater school. And like, I know, and I'm thinking to myself, cause you know, I obviously we've interviewed Sean gone listened to his interview and obviously, and we've done it twice, right? No, didn't we do two, two parts. I wasn't that the second one. But yeah. And obviously we know him and obviously he's not like my best friend, but I, and I was like thinking to myself and he's like, I just would really love to pitch him. And I was like, oh my God. So we created a dope letter to Sean Gunn. And I wrote to Sean and said, Hey, my students are doing this thing. He would love to jump on a zoom and they're going to have a zoom. So he's going to meet his hero.2 (25m 20s):That's I1 (25m 21s):Know I couldn't have been happier. I was like, I actually am doing something that makes a difference. So I'm facilitating the zoom between Alex and Sean and Sean was gracious enough to do it. And, and it turns out that he's filming. I think in Atlanta, you know, probably some marble thing and, and he gets off this week. And so it's, he has some time and Alex is like lipping out. Out's 21, right. This kid, he's like a great kid. He did stop motion classes. Like he, like, he knows how to do that as an actor, like the guy is in his letter, I really helped him with his letter. And, and Sean said, this, your student's letter is so sweet. Like I love it. So anyway, the point is, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is also to say that another reason the podcast is good.1 (26m 8s):Right. Because you just don't know how you're going to like pass it along. And FYI in two months, my students are going to be our colleagues. Right. Cause they're graduating. So you don't know, like, I don't know what they'll need for me or what I need from them.2 (26m 22s):I always say, you're the person who identified from the very beginning that this podcast was going to be healing to people. And not only are you doing it in this way, but you're also doing it in a way that you're through your work as a teacher correcting the thing that almost everybody who comes on says, I, yeah, I got all this education. But then when I graduated and now I do anything, like you're giving them at least,1 (26m 47s):And I do one-on-ones with them. And because I'm like, look, yes, exactly what happens to us and happened to everyone that we've talked to almost missed, except for like three people. And we've talked to a lot of people happened to is happening again, because I think there's obviously a bigger question of the reckoning of how do we change at a theater stage, acting conservatory to become more friendly towards launching these students in a way where they actually can get work and live and not worry and not worry as much that everything is for not. And what am I doing?1 (27m 26s):And I didn't get picked or chosen and how to write a pitch letter. Like FYI, all the people that I'm helping write pitch letters, they're all getting their meetings with people. It just, anyway, you were saying like, you can access.2 (27m 41s):Yeah. People it's, I'm not suggesting that anybody you want to talk to, you can just hit them up and talk to them. But I am just sort of speaking to this barrier that I have always had myself this mental barrier of like, well, I could never talk to so-and-so it's this thing about like, I could never follow my dream. You know, I recently realized that I actually was afraid to say inside of my own head, what a dream, what my dream was like. Right. Like I, I just made 99% of life completely out of reach for me. And then just try and then just try to figure out what this 1% that I could.1 (28m 24s):Yeah. I mean, that's what trauma does to you. That's what it does. It says you are, you can't even, it's not safe to even dream in your own fantasy. So most what I'm finding is as the more I talk to people in the more I sort of do research for like my own writing on trauma, on like serial killers, really. But like that the trauma is so crystallized at a young age, right. That there, it cuts off all access to hope. That's the effect of trauma. There is no hope. So you operate in this one, teeny little place of, I'm not going to hope, but I'm still going to live. Cause I'm not going to die. So there's, it's like, it's like, yeah, yeah.1 (29m 6s):There's no hope trauma cuts off the access to pipeline, to hope and to not just joy, but hope.2 (29m 13s):Yeah. And, and if it's true, like we were saying that youth is this short window, the good on the good side is there is hope in your older years that you can evolve to be the person that1 (29m 28s):You really can't. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of, it's not easy. And it's like really bizarre how you get there. But if you keep putting in the work and get support, it is possible. Even at 40, like that's the other thing that I am so clear on because I launched this consulting business so crazy. Like I thought I was going to get a nine to five and like, so my consulting business has taken off. Right. Because you've just fantastic. And people are like, how are you having so many clients? This is the reason I have no imposter syndrome. When it comes to this particular skill, like I'm scared as shit to be an actor. I'm scared as shit to write, to be a writer.1 (30m 9s):I'm still doing it, but I'm scared in that way, a screenwriter, a television writer, that kind of thing. But if you ask me to sit down with somebody and help them to pitch themselves and to crystallize their vision of what their thing is, whatever their thing is, I don't care what it is. I have zero imposter syndrome. I know you don't have to hire me. I don't get that's, you know, but I know that I am good at that beyond a shadow of a doubt because things have all come together to show me that. So my own work emotionally, I'm working with you on this podcast and in the entertainment business and my past life and entertainment and getting a master's in counseling, psych literally has prepared me to do this thing.1 (30m 57s):And I have no like, fear that if I'm talking to somebody about it, that they're going to think I'm full of shit, because it's actually the truth of what it's undeniable, it's undeniable, you eat it. And it's because I put in the work. And also I just it's one of the side effects of being a traumatized and neglected child is, is, and then doing the work to work through that is noticing that in other people and where their trauma points are. So now, like I'm literally about to start pitching my services to the district attorney's office for, for trials, for people to do closing lawyers that are scared to do closing arguments in a theatrical way.1 (31m 42s):Isn't that crazy? I was watching the John Wayne Gacy trial and I was like, oh, this guy has an amazing closing in his, his closing argument. The da was so brilliant. And it's known as like, he did this beautiful theatrical, but also tasteful thing. Cause sometimes it can be like a carnival, but like, and so I was like, oh, how do I help people do that? Cause that's, you know, and that's always tricky in the legal system, but I've also worked in the legal system. So I know a little bit, so anyway, that's my new, I'm like, yeah, these, some of these lawyers2 (32m 14s):How I1 (32m 15s):Have like stage fright, so litigators even, and they need help. So anyway, we shall see where that goes, but I don't have, I don't have, I'm not afraid that doesn't, I don't have imposter syndrome about that.2 (32m 28s):Yeah. Oh, thank God. We should all have at least one thing that we don't feel like we're an imposter about1 (32m 34s):One thing. I mean, for God's sake7 (32m 43s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to TJ Harris, TJ terrorists introduced us to the idea of the artist preneur and his background in business is what helped him get to that exciting place. So please enjoy our conversation with TJ Harris.2 (33m 2s):Okay. All right. All right. Congratulations. TJ Harris, you survived1 (33m 9s):And you did it with some very like your energy just from the emails and from your life is like so positive, ridiculously positive, which I adore and which I think we need. And also you call yourself and you are an extra preneur,8 (33m 29s):Brilliant1 (33m 30s):Artists, preneur artists are brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant mixing of that. Like I love that. Did you come up with that or?8 (33m 39s):Yeah, well I think so. I probably stole it from somebody else, you know, as all artists do. Yeah. But I have, I have, I started in business before acting, so I came to lading to acting and filmmaking later in life. I'm 34 right now. And this I've been on this journey for about six years. So I, I kind of started out like in finance, I studied, I got a general studies degree in undergrad. I went to ball, state university in Indiana and I was a business administration major at first and I hated it.8 (34m 19s):Absolutely hated it, but I knew it was during the time, like right before the recession hit where it was like, just get a degree to get a job. So I was like, okay, I'll get a business degree. But I ended up switching over to general studies with a concentration in finance and sociology. And during that time, I, I, I've always felt like I've been kind of in this, this middle ground of not really knowing which route I wanted to go, because I didn't want to become a doctor and I didn't want to become a lawyer and I didn't want to go down this. Like somebody already created my path for me. So I just kind of started experimenting with things, graduated with my degree.8 (35m 2s):I got a job with a company that I'm currently still with. I worked part-time for him. Yeah. So I I'm, I'm a consultant. Part-time1 (35m 12s):Oh, you know, what's so funny. That is so rare that people keep their job after they graduate from a, from a fine arts, like from a conservatory that they, as a master's student. That is fantastic. And why did you keep it? Like, could you love that work? What makes you want to keep it?8 (35m 30s):No. So, I mean, they know, I don't really love it. So I actually quit. I quit prior to coming to going to TGS for grad school. So the plan was just to, just to be done with it because I really want to transition out of this industry, but it keeps pulling me back somehow. So I quit. And then I had an exit interview and someone that when I first started with the team, the PR one of my colleagues ended up being the manager of the team when I was leaving. So did an exit interview and I was like, Hey, if you all, like, I'll come back and help out while I'm in school, if you all need my help.8 (36m 10s):So six months later, they brought me back as a contractor. So I was working in like, ha basically all my bills were paid for through working this job. Part-time while being at TTS1 (36m 24s):Here, here's the thing. This is brilliant for a lot of reasons. But one of is which, you know, I teach BFA fours at the theater school and, and now they have a class and I don't know, you may have had something to do with it. I don't know that that's called actors as, as entrepreneurs. There's like a, but, but it reminds me of like, they're trying to, but you already did that on your own. So like you, I never, it is so brilliant that you were able to maintain that job so that you might guess is you were able to live, like you had some Dota live on. Right.8 (37m 1s):I didn't take out any additional student loans or anything like that. I did just the bare minimum. And I was living with a friend from undergrad. So my rent was like, mama shit. He charged me charged charge, like 600 or $700 to be in a really nice place. I didn't have to pay your abilities. And I was living with a friend that I knew, so, and it was, it was, so the reason I quit is because I asked to go remote from my previous manager, but they didn't really work that out for me. So I quit. And I was like, you know what? I don't, I don't need it. So they brought me back and it was like, it was a part-time remote. And I already knew that job. And I was, I was basically locked site.8 (37m 43s):So like in the middle of rehearsal on breaks, I was doing work. It's all project based work. I was doing work in between rehearsals in between classes. I would check in and check my emails and just kind of set my own hours. And so when, like when the pandemic hit, I was already in the work from home mindset.2 (38m 2s):I have to stop you for one second. Cause there's so many things that you're saying I want to respond to. One is it's always a good sign, a good omen when just organically, the conversation turns to exactly what she and I were talking about before we started talking to you, we were talking about student loans and what a albatross they are for so many people so that you did yourself, such a favor by not having to go down that path. But also what I, what we always find in the MFA's is they really already know how to hustle, right? Because they've been in the workforce, hustling is like the thing you have to be as an actor.2 (38m 42s):And I feel like that isn't writ large enough when you're in a training program. Like, listen, you can learn about intention till the cows come home. But what you really have to be able to do is figure out how to do a lot of things all the time. Right?1 (39m 0s):Go ahead, go ahead.8 (39m 1s):Oh, I was going to say, yeah, I was, I was already hustling. I was working the full-time job and then immediately go into rehearsal for four hours and then rehearsing on my own after rehearsal and then going back to a job the next day.1 (39m 13s):Well, so this leads me to a question that maybe you can answer, which is okay. So the MFA, what I'm noticing, cause I also am doing a little workshop with some of the MFA actors this year and a writing workshop because I'm really interested in writing8 (39m 28s):Ones or twos or threes. It's all weird. Now1 (39m 32s):I know it's all weird. No, these are twos. And, and anyway, what I'm learning is that maybe, and you can see what you think about this. Maybe we need to look at restructuring acting conservatories to be more like MFA programs versus BFAs. Because like yourself, we have found that the MFA actors who graduate seem way more prepared to live the life of an, of a, of an artist preneur versus the BFAs who are like, I don't know, they seem like daring, like losing it.1 (40m 12s):Right. So what is your thought on that MFA versus BFA for you?8 (40m 17s):So it's a catch 22 because obviously like I wanted my MFA experience and the BFS, you know, we worked together, we rehearsed together and we did shows together and we were offered a lot of the same classes, but also you want that distinction of like, I'm paying more to get this specialized area. And I don't know if when I was 18 or 22, if I would have been in that mindset, like, I don't know what I want it then. So I think it might've been, I think it's a lot to process studying, acting and the business of acting and to make it all make sense, unless you already have an area that you're interested in and you can like apply while you're in, in school from the business side.2 (41m 16s):Did, did your career in business set that intention for you to be an artist preneur from before you ever started the program before you were restarted your MFA?8 (41m 28s):For sure. Yeah. I, so I can, I consider getting my MBA and I was looking at like Northwestern or, and just to preface, I had really had no interesting getting my masters. DePaul was the only school that I applied for because I, I was considering moving to Chicago or LA and I just wanted the training because I didn't study theater and, and undergrad. So I just wanted the training and I was like, you know what? I grew up in I'm from Northwest Indiana. I'm from Gary. And I knew, I knew of DePaul and I really, I searched top 25 MFA programs.8 (42m 10s):And I was like, oh, this isn't in Chicago. And then I looked at like UC San Diego, because that would get me close to LA. So I applied to DePaul and going into it. I told myself that I was never going to get my masters unless it was for something that I absolutely loved, like absolutely without a doubt. So it was acting. And I knew that I knew that I didn't want to get out of school and be poor. Cause like I don't, I don't like the concept of being a struggling poor artists.2 (42m 45s):Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that, that I really appreciate that because that persists as a myth that we all need to be living in a Garret somewhere. But how did you audition when you never studied that? Or did you ever act?8 (43m 2s):I was, I was acting, I was doing like community theater and I had an agent. I was doing improv. I was doing commercials and auditioning for TV and film and doing a lot of auditioning for theater and taking like workshops and classes. I had a vocal coach, so I was training, but it was like a self study type of training. And I never really had the core foundation of what acting is all at once. So I don't honestly, it's just one of those things where I like I'm, I'm very much a spiritual. And like you put out, you get whipped back what you put out into the universe. And like this life, the life that I've been kind of creating for myself is very surreal because things just like on paper, things should not happen the way that they have, you know?1 (43m 48s):Oh, tell us about that. Okay. So what, first of all, my question, my, my feeling is good. Good for you because I think you're making it, it sounds like it's exciting. Things are happening and they're coming together for you. So I guess my first question would be is what is the most exciting thing that is happening for you? Right this second,8 (44m 9s):This second wall, I just established my production company, my film production company in December. And I haven't launched like technically to the public, right until next month. Like I have an official launch day, May 15th next year, next year, next month, while next month. And the most exciting things that are happening are like, I have a small business client lined up for mark doing marketing work. I have someone that approached me for producing a web series that we're kind of developing the scripts. And then last night, DePaul school of cinematic arts student approached me to produce their MFA thesis, which is going to be a sag, a sag agreement.8 (44m 55s):So we just locked that in and that'll be, and I, I can't talk about it too much right now, but that's, we're shooting that in August.2 (45m 4s):Congratulations.8 (45m 5s):So even all of those things are just kind of happening and I haven't even really hit the ground. Yeah.2 (45m 11s):Oh my God. You're going to skyrocket. So what ways, if any, did the theater school experience challenge what you already knew about acting from having been a professional actor before the program?8 (45m 28s):In a lot of ways, it actually made me, it kind of hurt me a lot because I was very naive going into, and I was a lot more free and a bigger risk taker. And then when I got into TTS, you know, you start peeling back all of those layers about yourself and you're getting constant criticism and people were telling you to experiment, but also it's, you can't really experiment because you're getting graded and you're supposed to be taking risks and shows, but you're also getting a rehearsal and performance grades. So they call it caused a lot of like internal conflict. Where,1 (46m 4s):Why does that happen? Is that just the nature of school? I'm really curious as to why. So we have a beginner's mindset, right. Which is a beautiful thing. A lot of us, when we go in some of us, some of, you know, some of your classmates could, like some of ours probably would have been acting since they were like one month old, but for most of us, we didn't know what the hell was going. I didn't anyway. It really was going on. Yeah. So what is it when you say it's cut? Cause you said it was kind of bad, which I totally can relate to the idea of then going from being more free, to being more self-conscious and maybe like precious more about the work, but like what happened? What is the process that makes that happen? TJ, like, I don't get it.8 (46m 42s):I think, I think a lot of it is self-induced of like being in the competitive environment and I camp, I come from a sports background and wanting to just like love competition in a healthy manner. So I think a lot of it is that. And then I think a lot of it is just taking when you're, when you're told that there's so many different things that you need to change about yourself to kind of start fresh aching. Did it eat away at you? And like, and in the midst of like your learning, all your, like exposing yourself to all of this childhood trauma that you didn't even know exist in your body is going through all of these changes.8 (47m 29s):And you're releasing of this, these emotions that you didn't know existed. The reflection was great, but I think it was also like so much in such a little time to where before I was just kinda like, fuck it. Like, I don't have anything to lose. Like I've never acted I'm going to do this my way, regardless of what they think. And I think in grad school, I got back into a mindset of like, oh no, I actually care what they think.1 (47m 58s):Well, the other thing that is because I am a, I, I was listening to the thing you said about the sports mentality or a sports background, like, okay. Like, I was really good at basketball, unbeknownst to me in eighth grade. Okay. Like, shockingly, I was like this overweight kid, but I was really good at basketball. Okay. I didn't know I was good. I just, someone was like, Hey, try out for the team. We need people. I was like, well, I'm doing nothing else. But anyway, I turned out to be really good and I had fun because I had no expectations. I was like, okay, well they want me to play. Someone wants me. And it turns out I was really good. But then when I tried out for the high school team and it was like serious business, of course I never made the team.1 (48m 41s):And I never even went back to tryouts after day one, because I was like, oh, I'm not, this is, I'm not now it's serious business. Now this is like where, where the big boys and girls really play and it's competitive, more competitive. And it's more like, it felt more businesslike, you know, instead of fun. So maybe that has, I don't know. I could really relate to that sports analogy of like, when you're free, you're going to play better. You're going to be a better athlete. Right. Cause you can. So it's like how to maintain that freedom as an artist. If we bring it back to the theater school, like how to maintain that freedom to do what you want to do and experiment. And at the same time, take what they're giving you, but not care what they think.1 (49m 22s):It doesn't seem possible to me,8 (49m 23s):It doesn't. And I think like mid grad school. So probably second year before quarantine and everything happened. I think that was the year where I was like, okay, this is my second year. I know that. I know that I w I like, I really want to set myself up for success beyond just acting. But also I know that the stakes are high, like, or I made them high for myself. Like, oh, I gotta, I have to get an agent. And then you see all of that. You see it, all of your classmates, like they're starting to get representation early, before graduation in the middle of the pandemic. So like, it's like, oh, all of this pressure, and you don't know how the industry is going to be when you get out.8 (50m 6s):And also, like, I think I got back into the mindset of which I started in of like, okay, I feel behind already, because I started acting at the age of 28 and I didn't study. I haven't been studying since I was the age of five. Like I grew up in a performing arts family, but I was not other than just doing improv and having fun and making sketches with friends. So like, I didn't have anyone around me as a mentor in my friend group or in my family that could just kind of guide me. So I got this sense of urgency when I first started like, okay, I have to learn everything possible.8 (50m 47s):So I didn't care then. But like, when I was in grad school, I just started caring more about what my life could be and what it wouldn't be if I didn't get what I wanted. And I think, I just1 (51m 4s):Think she8 (51m 4s):Was as a lot of pressure.1 (51m 6s):So did you enjoy your time there sometimes some, like, did you, what would you say if someone came to you like were coming to you and say, like, what was your takeaway from that theater school experience in terms of high points and low points?8 (51m 22s):I, you know, I've, I, I loved it despite like the first year I will say the first year was brutal. It was brutal. My, my cohort, I love my cohort. We went through like a title nine investigation the first quarter. So it was like emotionally draining, just the, you know, being in a new environment and conservatory to start. And then you have like a sexual harassment case happening that creates like our own type of social distancing thing, where the person can't be in class, we have to go through, like, we're getting Student, this was a cohort member. Who's no longer with the program.8 (52m 3s):They got expelled, but, okay. So yeah, we're going through that. And we're navigating like intimacy and like how to get around all of this in our first quarter at DePaul. So a lot happened and it drew us together a lot.2 (52m 19s):I'll say my God. I mean, that door normally happens anyway, just because of the intimacy of being in voice and speech classes, but having that to go through, I mean, that, that probably in the end, sorry for whoever got hurt in that experience, but probably in the end boded. Well, for everybody just being able to, to judge8 (52m 37s):It did it did. So yeah, that first year was rough. I also went through, like, I went through a racial profiling scenario in the theater school that ended up leaking out to media when the George Floyd things happened in 2020, like that It's a whole thing. I was there's you, where were you all in the, you, weren't in the new building. So1 (53m 5s):We're old, we're old as hell. We've we, we graduated in 97 and 98. So no,8 (53m 12s):So, so I, I was like napping before rehearsal on the second floor, which is next to like the marketing section. And there's like a couch kind of blocked off, but you know, everyone sleeps in theater school cause you spend like 98% of your time there. And there was a, there was an Encore, a duty officer patrolling. And I think he was new because he had never, I never seen him before anyway. So he like woke me up and then started questioning me and like asking why I was there and who I was and asking for my ID. And I'm like, no, I go to school here.8 (53m 52s):And then I was like, why, why did you, why did you wake me up? And then he told me that because someone saw on camera and called to check that there was someone in the building that shouldn't be there. Okay. So we went through this whole process of like investigating and there's no cameras in the theater school. So he lied about why he stopped me. It was, it was, you know, I mean older, like I'm not at a typical theater type look anyway, the case got thrown out because they couldn't like, they couldn't find enough evidence to prove that he was in the wrong, even though he did wrong.8 (54m 34s):So they kind of went by that. So that's, this is all first year, right? So the case got,2 (54m 38s):Oh my God, you've graduated.8 (54m 42s):Yeah. So the case got closed and then we just kinda let it go. But after that first year, I was like, you know what? This was a more emotional turmoil. And I refuse to have the final two years go this way. So that's when I really started focusing on, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get through school and like get every ounce of it out that I can. And that, and that's kind of like this that's when I kind of started developing like truly developing my production company. It had been in the works for awhile, but that's when I really got serious about it. And then the pandemic hit and like I had a lot of extra free, free time and you know,2 (55m 23s):Oh my God, I, I don't think there, there could have been any more calamity that you were facing at this time and you and you, so you truly survive school it on such a deeper level than I think I could, I can attest to, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier, when you were talking about picking careers, you were saying, I didn't want to be a doctor and I didn't want to be a lawyer. And so my assumption was that that's what your parents are. And then you said it's a performing arts family. So tell us more about your performing arts family.8 (55m 58s):Yeah. So my mom, she trained in classical singing and she's not a professional singer. My sister was in a performing arts high school and she's 10 years older than I am. So I grew up exposed to like, I grew up exposed to her in a girl group and around artists and around theater. Like my mom was kind of a, she's a public speaker and a politician her own way because I lived in Arkansas for about five years during my childhood. And it was a small town and everyone knew her and she, she ran this, this preschool, but she also did a lot of things in the community where she would have like women's support groups and she would go do like these leadership workshops.8 (56m 46s):And she's, I also grew up in a Baptist church and in the black church. So I, I grew up seeing performances a lot in a lot of theatrical performances and seeing my mom speak and she's so like articulate and powerful and I always admired her like, wow, she can get up in front of all these people and speak and like enjoy it. And I could not because I was super shy, like super shy. And I think it's because people told me that I was shy. So I had no interest in performing. Cause I was just terrified of it. And1 (57m 24s):I have to pause there for a psychological moment. Isn't that interesting. I did not realize that about shy kids. That a lot of times they're told, oh, this is the shy one. Just like, oh, this is the, you know, whatever one. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing. Like this is my, this TJ, he he's the shy kid. And maybe he wouldn't have been so shy if it hadn't been reinforced and reinforced. That's so interesting. It's just like what we tell ourselves like, oh, I can't do that. I can't play basketball at camp, but I'm this one, my sisters, that one, that's so interesting to me. Cause shy you, I mean just shows how people change and w how we aren't really what people say we are.1 (58m 5s):So anyway,8 (58m 6s):I internalized it and what I've psychologically, I think what it was, I grew up around kids. There were way older than me and way more mature. So I'm a, five-year-old around a 15 year old. And my brother who was six years old or 11, and all of my cousins are like 11, 12. I'm not going to be able to articulate the way that they're articulating and expressing themselves. But, so I think I just kind of withdrew within myself when I wasn't able to do what they were doing, which ties back into me, never acting is because I never thought it was a possibility because I saw them being able to do these things, but I didn't feel like I could express myself that way. So I just did sports.2 (58m 51s):Okay. Well, and actually that's kind of a pretty good bridge. Really. If you feel like if you were any bit in your shell, sports does help people come sort of come into who they are a little bit, but what I wanted to ask you was, did you, when did you, when did you figure out that you are not shy and when did you decide that this could be something that you would do?8 (59m 19s):I think in my probably, you know, I never, I've always known that I, I wasn't shy. It just depended on who I was around. You know, what, what group I was around. Because if you, like, if you're around my childhood friends and people, I went to high school with, they'll be like, he is not fucking shy. Like what, he's the worst, actually, he's the worst. Once you get them going? I think it has a lot to do with code switching and being in environments. I was very observant as a kid, you know, because I was shy and I listened a lot.8 (1h 0m 1s):So I think it was more of, I like to observe people around me before I speak. So I knew I wasn't shy, but I, I also knew that I wanted to be able to have a voice and figure out what that looked like. And that was kind of the journey of me that led me to acting is okay. I want to be able to speak and express myself and I want the tools to be able to do it. I just don't know what that looks like.2 (1h 0m 33s):Can you tell us about some of your favorite theater school experiences like performances or, or classes8 (1h 0m 41s):Favorite? Okay. Let's Griffin is a favorite of all. She, I could talk about her for days. Phyllis is a voice, was our, my voice teacher and my second year, and just her spiritual and gentle approach and having a black woman as a faculty member was huge. Those are, so those are some of my biggest highlights. So it's probably going to be more on like me and who I had around me. So just for context, I was the only black male in the MFA program when I went in.8 (1h 1m 26s):So there were two black women in my cohort. And then the class that MFA two's ahead of me, there was one black woman. And then the, is there was one black woman. So I was the only, like, not only was I, the, I was the only black male in the MFA program in my thirties, going into an environment where like everyone out of the other younger black men were 18, 19 20. So there's like this huge gap where I didn't really, I'd never felt like I had someone that I could talk to, you know, so, but great experiences.8 (1h 2m 7s):Our lady of second year, it was majority, all black tasks, a play centered around three well Rwandan girls who saw, saw our, the Virgin mother, Mary, so apparitions of it. So that was a great to being that environment and do that. And then I did this really cool in the, the big black box in the heli. I did this, this horror comedy job, a play called neighborhood three requisition of doom. And I got to play three different characters and I love the horror genre. So it was cool to really dive into that and work with the cast.8 (1h 2m 51s):And then that final quarter of the second year, the pandemic hit. And one of our professors that we didn't know, which was great. We were terrified because we hadn't worked with him, but he's an alumni, Sean Paris. I don't know if you're aware of Sean Paris.1 (1h 3m 12s):I know Sean,8 (1h 3m 12s):Sean, Sean has become a big brother to me. He is so amazing. And that was like the point that was game-changing for me, because it was during, it was during the start of the pandemic where I had not only a black faculty member teaching, but also a black male faculty member teaching me and I, that like that was when I really felt like I was able to open up and truly start translating who I am into acting and into my art or my art1 (1h 3m 42s):So necessary. What, what did, what was Shawn teaching or was he directing?8 (1h 3m 47s):So it was all remote. He was teaching us Meisner and viewpoints, but we were translating it to on camera because everything was done. So I got to really start building my relationship with the camera, Our relationship and the environment, because there's not really on camera for, at the theater school and there needs to be more And I love TV and film is the route that I'm, I want to go mainly in my career.1 (1h 4m 18s):So what, when you say like, that really opened you up in that really? What do you think it, I guess what I'm trying to, I want to get clear about, like, what did it do for you as a performer to have that experience with Sean? Like what, what, what happened? What changed in you?8 (1h 4m 38s):I got to hear his experiences and see him work because he really, he wasn't, he was a student as well, and he, like, we got to watch him do monologues and watch him work. And I think just being in the environment where someone was like me, literally, who was like me and has experienced it, experienced the type of things that I've experienced in life. It's one of those things where like, growing up, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me on TV or in film. So I never thought it was a possibility. And sh working with Sean in being around him really opened up what acting can look like for me.2 (1h 5m 26s):Oh, that's so beautiful. And I'm never not surprised in all of the ways that representation matters. I never thought about it mattering in the classroom, but it certainly does. I don't know if you got a chance to listen to, we interviewed Justin Ross and he talked about our lady of Cuba. And one of the things that he was talking about was that, that it sounds to me. So I'm asking you to, for clarification, it sounds to me like that production fostered a whole pivot in terms of the curriculum and, and, and how he said it to us as we warmed up differently than was sort of the, the, the usual at the theater school.2 (1h 6m 14s):And that, that production helped create a new normal for that. Is that, was that your experience?8 (1h 6m 21s):It did. And I think a lot of that has to do with our graduating class with BFA and MFA my class, my cohort was very much of like, we'll burn this institution down if we need to, like, we're, we're changing shit, like regardless. And a lot of it had to do with going through what we went through that first quarter with the title nine situation. It was like we had each other's backs and it was the same way with our lady of Cuba. Oh, if like we have each other's backs because we went through some shit in there too with like,1 (1h 6m 54s):Yeah, they, yeah, it didn't, it was like, there was a lot of bad shady shit that went down right there.8 (1h 7m 1s):A lot of shit going down. Yeah. And a lot of like unbiased prejudice and racism that was happening with the people who were working on crew, not really having an understanding of the story that we're telling and not really allowing us to tell the story and not really getting our feedback as you know, it was, it was a lot of like an all black cast, but being essentially produced by all white people was right. You know, and there was a lot of conflict during that production, but I do think,1 (1h 7m 40s):Do you feel like it changed though yeah.8 (1h 7m 43s):To change the culture of TTS? For sure. Because we start, it was, I think that production and the things that happened during it really started shifting the culture of theater in TTS before the culture started shifting in 2020s. It was kind of like the, the catalyst before that.2 (1h 8m 9s):Oh my God. Yeah. Only like 50 years too late, not too late, but 50 years late. Like w we've had a of conversations because your experience of being the only black male in, in our generation there, yeah. There was always an, any class, only one person of color, pretty much. I mean, maybe in a couple of years there were two. And certainly Phyllis was our only are ever professor of color. Is she still the only professor of, I mean, I know the new Dean is a woman,8 (1h 8m 39s):But the only 10 years1 (1h 8m 42s):Tenured and full time, even maybe, I don't know, like adjuncts. Yes. We're cause I'm adjunct. And I know in my cohort of adjuncts there are, but I think full-time like, it's still, what, what, wait, wait, what?8 (1h 8m 55s):Yep. Well, Christina, Anthony, Chris, Anthony is new. She came in our second year. So that, she's also a really great she's. She came from California and she's, she has a lot of background in activism and in the classical. So she, she is a full-time staff member, faculty member, faculty member.2 (1h 9m 18s):Do you remember your audition? And can you tell us about what your audition was like? Yeah.8 (1h 9m 22s):Yeah. So get that. So when I apply for the audition, they were like, you can do the preliminary video or you can just come to in-person and I didn't have any experience with self-tapes. And like, I was still raw. I was like, I don't want to put a monologue on video. Like I won't have a chance at all at all, if I do this, but during that time, I was already preparing for Kentucky Shakespeare auditions. So I had been working monologues and working on a lot of different things with my, my vocal coach. So I did in-person auditions. And it's very funny because I was currently in rehearsals for the show of chorus line, the musical, and then think auditions were on Wednesday, Wednesday.8 (1h 10m 17s):Yeah. Auditions were on Wednesday in Chicago. And then there was an audition for cau UC San Diego in Chicago. Like they were, you know, all of the colleges they come and I was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll get an audition for UC San Diego. And it happened to be the day before the DePaul auditions. So I knew that I wasn't going to go to UC San Diego just because I felt like they don't know who I am. It would be like me applying to Yale and they don't, they have no idea who I am. So I have no chance. So I used that as like a warmup for DePaul, used it for a warmup to get, just kind of get the jitters out and audition.8 (1h 10m 59s):And then as I was leaving the, I can't, we were in some hotel downtown, maybe the Hyatt or something like that, as I was leaving, they were like, Hey, we're doing auditions for Columbia and New York. If you have a headshot, a resume and want to get a slot, I'm like, oh yeah, I have these printed out. So I signed up for a slot and then I went and auditioned for Columbia. So it was like, oh, all right. I got these two auditions under my belt. I feel, I feel ready going into tomorrow. Right.1 (1h 11m 25s):Wait, can I just say how brilliant it is that you decided to use them as practice? This is the sign of someone who is ready to do their craft when they see not those opportunities as a chance to have a panic attack and die, but as a chance to use their skills and practice and get in front of people and practice, that is a true artist, entrepreneur mindset. Like that is a better mindset. Thank gosh. You had that anyway. Okay. So then do you went to Columbia? Did you do all those?8 (1h 11m 55s):I did the Columbia. I did the Columbia and you know, there were, I was in the lobby and just ki
Gina made a terrible lasagne. Boz debunks the myth of chicken. Carl Buddig beef bags, Doritos, smoked soup, Colombian food, HOKAs, FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.2 (15s):And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. It is. I Gina reporting to you live. I mean, it's live to me, but it's not live to you because you most definitely aren't hearing it in the exact moment. I'm saying it, but you get the idea. It's Monday night, I'm here at my house sitting in my room where I always record when I talked to boss and I'm I'm, I'm coming on here to tell you that. Hmm. Do you know that expression inside baseball?2 (1m 15s):I don't understand when people say, oh, that's too inside baseball. Because for me, all I care about is the inside of something. I don't even like baseball. I'd love to be inside baseball. You want to show me where they get the dirt off their cleats. Great. You want to show me what kind of savvy they have to use on their cracked hands from rubbing? Oh, that says this is going to sound sexual. I don't mean it that way, but from holding the bat. Yeah. I want to see that you want to, you want to tell me about contract negotiations? I mean, I want to hear that stuff. I want to hear that stuff more than I want to hear about, or, you know, like actually watch baseball anyway.2 (1m 59s):I'm, I'm bringing this phrase up because I've never understood why people, don't, what people think it's bad to be inside baseball. And also by way of telling you that today's episode is going to be a little inside baseball. We record every week. We interview people every week. And at the very beginning, we had so many interviews stacked up that it was months between when we would record somebody and when it actually aired. But once all of that stack got aired, now we pretty much go week to week and that's fine, unless, and until we have a cancellation or two, as the case is for us right now, we had two back-to-back cancellations.2 (2m 52s):So one time when we had this, I put, I repaired an old episode, which I thought was really a great episode. And I'm really glad I repaired it. And then a couple of times we've aired episodes with just BAAs and I talking with no interview. And the reason I like to put something up is because personally, when I listened to podcasts and people take a week off, I really hate that. I really hate when a podcast I'm really used to listening to, you know, coming out on a certain day and like, that's the day I'm gonna, Ooh, it's Tuesday. I get to whatever, walk my dog and listen to my favorite podcast.2 (3m 33s):I hate it when those people take a vacation, but that's what I did. I took a vacation last week and boss was going to record one solo, but her interview canceled. And then the person that we're supposed to speak to tomorrow canceled. So honestly, we're probably gonna have the same problem next week, unless something magical happens. And we're able to interview somebody else before this weekends and who I'm saying all this to say, we do have an episode today. It is not previously aired material. It is boss and I talking, but it is not an interview.2 (4m 14s):And if that's not your jam that I get it, you can, you can just skip this one. Maybe this is not, maybe this is not the one for you, but if you're like me and you are inside baseball and you like things that are inside baseball. And by the way, I mean, it's not like it's inside baseball in the sense that we're talking about, you know, like the platform that we're hosting our podcasts, it's not actually really inside baseball. It's just not, it's just not our typical episode. Anyway, I also want to take this opportunity to think we have actually kind of a surprising number of listeners in other countries.2 (4m 54s):And I have never done something that I've always wanted to do, which is acknowledge all of these wonderful listeners. And so I'm going to do that right now. First we have New Zealand and I happen to know the person who listens to us from New Zealand or at least one of the people. And he Sean Spratt. And he went to theater school with us. And one day we'll have him on the podcast, but thank you, Sean Spratt for your listenership. Very much appreciated. We have listeners in Spain, the United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Singapore, Russia. Although not for the last couple of months.2 (5m 34s):If you know what I mean. France, Jordan, Nepal, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Israel, Virgin islands, pork bowl, Rico, Mexico, Austria, Sweden, Palestine, the Netherlands, Morocco, South Korea, Japan, Finland. I heard Finland has great coffee. I'd like to go there someday. Bangladesh, Uganda, Slovakia, Poland, Ireland, Indonesia, and BA. Right? Thank you to all of you, whoever you are out there listening to our little podcast. I appreciate you.2 (6m 15s):I do. I appreciate you deeply. I am also going to take this opportunity to recognize some fabulous comments that people have left on apple podcasts in the form of reviews. Something. I also greatly appreciate Larkin and Ellis says what a fun show to listen to and to have communion with other theater folks. So many of us survived, thrived or crashed. That's true. Afterschool and hearing tales of everyone's experience brings such humanity to the process. Jen and Gina are delightful and treat each, each guest with such grace, highly recommend. Thank you, Larkin Ellis.2 (6m 57s):Next. We have Zoe incredibly warm, funny and fascinating. These hosts get the best out of their guests. If you are involved in any part of the acting business, this will be a fascinating podcast for you. If you went to any theater school, this could be an opportunity for immense healing and processing things you didn't even know needed more attention. I laughed so hard. I cried. It was bad. It was better than cats. Thank you, Sophie. All right, BJP. Oh, that's I know who this is. This is Brian Brian Polak, who has also a great podcast. I mean, he had an episode on ours, but he's the host of the subtext podcast, which is all about playwrights.2 (7m 38s):And very interesting. If you haven't listened to it, please do his latest urban. I don't know if it's his actual latest, but one of his most recent ones features Tracy Letts. So that's cool. Anyway, Brian says not only are the interviews always free range and fascinating, but the conversations between Jen and Gina that begin each episode are warm and fun. It's like catching up with old friends every new time. Every time a new episode comes out. Thank you. Brian Love that. Scott says this podcast is such a gift, exclamation point. Anyone who has dabbled in the fine arts can relate to the conversations that the hosts and guests are discussing. I would also go as far as to say, listening to this podcast is like having a free therapist, especially if you are embarking on a career in the performing arts.2 (8m 25s):Thank you, Scott. Lovely Scott. Oh, and then here's one I wrote for myself. Yes I did. This is an inside baseball moment. I wrote my own review because I feel at times very desperate to get reviews. So I wrote one for myself. Love the way it is to interrogate the psychological makeup of actors and others who pursue an education at a conservatory. Thank you, Gina. Thank you for your comments, Gina. What a sweet girl. You are. Jimmy McDermott says these ladies dig deep. Thanks Jimmy. Somebody who calls themselves four lifetimes ago, love that love listening to this podcast.2 (9m 8s):As it leads me down memory lane, I'm also able to reflect on my own time, spent at theater school and what it meant to me and how it shaped me into who I am today. Gina and Jen are fantastic hosts, very welcoming with thoughtful questions. Thank you for lifetimes ago that we've got eat Beth James, this pod delightfully dives into fascinating memories and lessons from dream chasers in their youth. A must listen for everyone who has even entertained a life in theater, yay to Jen and Jayna for bringing this quirky subject to life in such a real and interesting way. Thank you. E Beth James, who was nice. Happy in Galveston.2 (9m 48s):Just finished listening to y'all's interview of my son's Seiler. Oh yeah. Okay. So this is sailor's mama y'all did an amazing, oh, I'm going to read it like I'm from Texas. Just finished listening to y'all's interview with my son, Tyler Siler, not Tyler. Tyler is a very Texas named Seiler. Of course y'all did an amazing job. I've known him for 47 years and I learned so much about him. I never thought for a minute that he'd be bullied at theater school, not my Sattler, but it was a real relief to know it didn't happen. Something he didn't mention is that he was a year ahead in school and contracted a ripper in case mano right before leaving for college. So he started college in Chicago as a 17 year old with the case of mano and Dave.2 (10m 32s):Great. It was really fun. Hearing him recount the shows he was in that bear costume was the worst. I'll look forward to hearing interviews with Kevin and PJ. Great. And we did interviews with Kevin and PJ. So I hope you liked those Mrs. Siler. Thomas' mom. All right. You got the idea. I love these nice reviews. Thanks to everybody who gave one who wrote one. And if you are not among those who have read, reviewed us rated or reviewed us, what are you waiting for? Literally? What are you right this second? What are you waiting for? A pause.2 (11m 12s):This rambling that I'm doing and go leave us a review. Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it. All right. I think I've, I think I've yammered long enough. Please enjoy this conversation. Or actually to be honest, it's like three different conversations that it edit it together. Please enjoy this chit chat sesh with me and buzz love you. I'm sorry to hear about your lasagna. I made the word, it was disgusting.2 (11m 53s):I a leftover rotisserie chicken and I Googled like, what can I do with my leftover rotisserie chicken? And I saw this thing make a lasagna with mush. It happened to be all the ingredients that I had and needed to use mushrooms, spinach and rotisserie chicken. Now I will say, I thought to myself that doesn't sound like a good lasagna, like rotisserie chicken. Yeah. I don't know mushrooms are okay. It's finishes. Okay. But the rotisserie chicken and then it was a white sauce and girl, it was, I mean, simply inevitable. And I'm the person in the family who, because I make the food, even if it's not good, I eat it because I spent a lot of time making that, you know, I had this one had to make its way to the, to the trash and media Mente.2 (12m 38s):Nobody, even nobody else. Even my son is lactose intolerant. So he really can't use something like that. Anyway, I had made him a special version. He can eat cheddar, I guess, letters like certain cheeses that are made to him. A version of it, the head cheddar cheese, he actually said it was really good. Maybe it was better than, you know, because it had more like Tang to it. But that's the thing you need to have some acidity. This had zero acidity. It was just right. That's very interesting. I was thinking about that on my walk over here. Cause I saw your posts and I was like, yeah, I think that white sauce is really hard to pull off. Like yeah, unless maybe you have to have like tons of butter and then, but then the rotisserie chicken, which reminds me of a story.2 (13m 24s):So my, my mom, okay. After Thanksgiving, right at we'd have this Turkey carcass. Right. And then she'd make the Turkey soup. Okay. But one year my uncle, aunt and uncle came from San Francisco, you know, they're from San Francisco. So they wanted to smoke and brine the Turkey. Okay. Let me tell you something. If you've ever had a smoked Turkey soup, it's the most disgusting Turkey, Turkey noodle soup. I mean, I ate it and I was like, mom, what, what, what, what what's happening? And she was like, well, I just, I said, wait, this is the smoked Turkey. You can't have smoked soup.2 (14m 6s):It's like the word wait, was your mama? No, no, but she, okay. So my mom was not ever like literally we, I grew up on McDonald's and I don't know if I've told the budding beef story here. Okay. So kind of one thing. So our lunch has kids. Oh my God. It's no wonder that I have food issues. Like our lunches kids and I don't look, she was doing the best she could. I don't, I I'm. I'm just sick. It's a travesty. What went on. So we had in a lunch bag, a whole bag of fake Karl budding beef bags, which are, which are just fake beef. I don't know if you've ever seen it in the store.2 (14m 46s):Go in the cold cut section. I don't even know if it's legal to sell this shit anymore. But they had Carl budding beef, which wasn't real beef. Yeah. Oh, it was like a vegan thing or no, no, no. It's like spam, like processed beef. So like processed. Yeah. Like processed beef and beef beef. Did she say beef bag? Yeah. Okay. So it's in a bag in a bag and, and there's like 20, probably 24 slices in a bag. My mom would put the whole bag in our lunch. So we'd have 20 and it was salty. No wonder. I mean like it's all, she would just throw the whole bag in.2 (15m 29s):It was probably $2 or bag at that time. So she would throw the whole bag of beef in and then yeah. Well she wasn't, I mean, my mom was literally like, let me just work and fuck these people. And then, okay. So that was that a bad and it wasn't like back then they didn't have the small snack size bags. So it was like a snack ish size bag of Doritos, which we would wrap each Dorito and a piece of beef. Oh God. Okay. So Doritos. Okay. It was Doritos, a beef fat. I'd be like, mom, there's no food. And she'd be like, grab yourself a beef bag for lunch. Be fat. Just a bag of obese.2 (16m 9s):Yeah. And it was so that it was so salty. I remember it. Okay. So, so I'd have the Doritos and the beef bag and it have been so thirsty after lunch. Well, no wonder I have like I high blood pressure. I'm like, this is, this is the impetus for the whole thing. Then it would be a Capri sun to wash it down and then dessert for dessert. It was literally okay. My mom thought she was doing this great thing by getting hostess, went through a phase of doing hostess light. I don't know if you remember, they had light and they had light cupcakes. So it was like a plastic version of their real co she would throw one of those in there. That was my lunch for probably 10 years.2 (16m 51s):Well, every day, like, yeah. Do you ever, could you ever by hotline? Yeah. So Friday, sometimes the hot lunch was literally the square pizza and tater tots. Right, right. Certainly were not, there was no chance of you getting nutrition. I had no vegetables or fruit ever, like ever. And then when she would cook and my dad, you know, he didn't do shit. So, but when she would cook, it would be like weird shit. Like she would make vats of like beef goulash. She's Colombian. What is she making beef goulash for? It was why didn't she make Colombian food? Not, it's not my favorite thing. It's a lot of, some of it's good, but she, she wanted to just assimilate and fuck her past understandably, but also it's a lot of starches.2 (17m 41s):It takes a lot of time. It's a lot of like flowery doughy, everything. So it wouldn't have been that much more nutrition, but it might have tasted better. Yeah, dude, it was, and the goulash would be frozen. Oh my God. She would freeze the goulash. And it was egg noodles. And this meat that had the strange sauce, like tangy, speaking of tangy, but not tangy in the greatest way. And then we'd have to, and I'd be like dad, where, and she was always out of town. I'd be like, dad, I'm not eating this. So we'd order pizza. That was the first. Okay, well this is, this is really sounding so familiar to me. So when I was growing up, my, my mother who worked more than full time, came home every single night and made dinner.2 (18m 24s):And you know, she had her repertoire, but I mean, she, she made dinner from, there was nothing she didn't even use. Like, and they didn't really have too much of it then, you know, nothing was really pre-made. She, she, she made dinner and of course I always hated it because it was something like, you know, she cooked fish or she, you know, she had these weird she's from New Mexico. So she has these looks, she puts all of us in her spaghetti sauce. It's just like some weird things like that. So there's lots of things that she made that I didn't like, but I so relate to it now. And I relate to your mother freezing the goulash because it's just like every night I have to cook dinner every night.2 (19m 6s):And of course I have this panel of critics. That's just like everything I make disgusting. If it's, if it's nutritious in any way, if it's not nutritious, then, then they're really happy with it. Oh my God. That sounds horrible. It's horrible. So I've had this very like passive aggressive relationship and resentful relationship with cooking for my family. We end up ordering out, like I would say, well, definitely two nights a week, but some weeks three. And it's, I hate it. I just, I hate absolutely everything about it. And I also relate to being on the receiving end of food that, you know, it's just like, it's a no win situation.2 (19m 47s):It really is. I mean, I think the only thing to do is like, when kids are like two and three, get them to start cooking and be like, fuck it. You're on your own because you know, so my son can really cook. He can really cook, but he's low on the motivation. He's like, that's, you know, that's kinda your job and he's not, he's not wrong. I mean, you know, as much as I, he's not wrong, it is sort of my job. But anyway, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's not good, but okay. How do we get because of my lasagna? Oh, the lasagna. So yeah, I, I saw, I heard that and I, I, I read that this morning and I was like, Ooh, but the good news is that the chicken? I mean the chicken, well, I guess the chicken would have ended up in the garbage anyway, but did, did the dog eat any of it?2 (20m 31s):No. You don't give that to them. I gave, well, I gave no, I gave the dog like the skin of the chicken that I wasn't using on the middle of Sunday. But I forgot to mention, I made it on Sunday, which is the day that you so graciously ordered my family pizza, which is why we didn't meet lasagna on Sunday. We ate it last night, but then we, it was gross. But on Sunday, I guess everybody have to tell everybody where we texting or talking on the phone phone about a funny audition situation. Yeah. And I was telling you, like Aaron had a stomach bug. My daughter had her broken arm. My son, oldest child always has some pains.2 (21m 14s):Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like, I woke up, I walked out the door. The first thing I see is just blood all over the bathroom. Mostly has been going on for 30 minutes. It looked like a crime scene in there. I mean, it was just one thing after the other. So you sent me pizza. Yeah. I don't even feel that. And you sent these something we'd never had before. It's wings, boneless wings, but oh my God, those were a huge hit. So yeah, because you know what my thing is because I'm so greedy, Gina is that you don't want the bone getting in the way of the food. So just eat the goddamn, like who needs the bone?2 (21m 54s):Like, fuck the bone. Like you want the food? I don't go in for like ribs. I don't go in for anything with a bone. I'm like, I mean, rotisserie chicken. Okay. But I just take the honk of breastfeed off. I don't need a bone getting in my way is what I'm telling you. Okay. But a bone, like, honestly, you might want to reconsider that because food meats cooked with Bonin are usually more flavorful and tender. True. That true debt to debt. So like, I think you're right. Like, but I also am known to love a dry as fuck piece of chicken. I don't yeah. The chicken breasts without anything on it. Yeah. I, there is some weird thing about me that I, and also, you know, which is sad that I love chicken so much because my doctor told me there's no nutritional value in chicken.2 (22m 42s):Like, like literally, yeah. The protein, it's like a very small amount of protein in chicken. It's like garbage, garbage it's air. Like basically. So we're killing these chickens and we're thinking we're eating, being healthy. And really she's like, just eat fish like that. You, you just, chicken is not. And I was so sad when, cause she said eat before eight. If you're not going to eat beef, do fish. But like you don't count on a chicken for your protein is what Joe, Kayla, the chicken damn that's up ending my entire, we ate chicken all the time. I'm always like, that's the healthier thing to give my kids. No, I know. And like, I, it was like, I wish it was different, but chicken is like a non issue.2 (23m 23s):Like a it's like not really a thing. No. And I was like, well, you know what? Like chick Chick-fil-A is going to be up in arms about this big that's right. And what about eggs? Can we have that's all protein. All. Okay. But she was like, literally I think she said, and I wish we had so many listeners that they would like write in and tell me I was wrong. So if you are listening and tell me that I'm wrong. But like, I think she said that like, there's more protein in like four florets of broccoli than a chicken breast. Oh, that isn't the same. This is reminding me of it's reminding me of when I found out that the reason that we all thought breakfast was the most important meals because the cereal companies put off that how much of our life is just a complete lie foisted.2 (24m 18s):Well, I advertising you asked Adam McKay all of it, all of it. All right. We are so influenced by every single thing. Yeah. So anyway that, yeah, I know. I know that. I know that's really true for me. I know 1000% that I will buy something with prettier packaging. Even if it's not as good quality as the other, that's it, it all goes back also to my, my Charleston chew a story. I never told you this. So what? I was little, another something fell. Oh, okay. When I was little, my mom said you can get any candy bar at the store. Right.2 (24m 58s):And my greedy ass was like, I'm going to get the biggest candy bar. The biggest one. I I'm going to get the biggest one because I was greedy. Right. And also food was loved to me. Right. So, I mean, that's the truth. So I was like, I'm going. So we went to the store and I remember looking Snickers that I'm like, look at that motherfucking Charleston shoe. It's like 10 feet long. But I didn't know. I never had a Charleston shoe. So my sister got probably something reasonable received, something like that. I got this huge Charleston shoe thinking. I fucking beat the system. I con this bitch out of a huge, it tasted like it was like a strawberry vanilla coaster.2 (25m 39s):Right. Just ripped out my retainer. Like that's all I was like, that was my first lesson in greed that in, you know, like the, so there's other stories. But like that, that, that story was like, oh my God, you can't trust. So we've learned this morning, Gina, you can't trust a chicken for your protein and you can't fucking trust a Charleston shoe or a white sauce or a white sauce. That was the first lesson this morning. That was the first lesson. Yeah. Anyway, how is miles? His birthday know? It was really good. It was okay. So there's this place in, in Pasadena that I, my friend works at and she's the funniest.2 (26m 20s):I mean, she's like, we're friendly. We're not like good buddies, but she, she works at this place called noodle street. Okay. And you, and it's not noodles. And co which miles told everyone, I was taking him to noodles and fucking co for his birthday. I was like, is that a fast? It's like pancakes. I'm like miles. You can't tell people that I'm not that ridiculous. Not that there's any, well, there is wrong with that. Like, I can't take you there for your birthday. Like that for a celebration ticket, injured husband to Panera. I mean, some people probably do it look, but whatever it's like on the Pinera level, but noodle street is a handmade noodle company in Pasadena. And my friend Christina works there.2 (27m 0s):Who's hilarious. And I wanted to take him there. So we went to noodle street and it was one of those things where we're like, Christina, just give us a bunch of food. Right. She literally, there were like 10 dishes. I was like, it was so much food that miles miles does the same. And I love him. And, and look, I obviously have food issues, but he will eat until he throws up sometimes like that, that, or almost like, I've never, I haven't done that. And since I was a child, I don't think. But like he, he can't and it's not like we just so good. He can't stop himself. There's a problem area.2 (27m 40s):And so this happened at Ethiopian once where he literally threw up and had to do something in his mouth, you know what I mean? Like he can't stop himself. So he just went crazy and it's really like, they used, you know, she uses it's it's Asian fusion and there's all different, cool spices. Oh my God. So I didn't want to be the jerk. That's like, like censoring my husband, but, or like trying to food shaman, but I'm like, miles, you gotta slow down. Like this is not going to go. Well, like when he busted into the ramen, the beef, the pork res braised ramen after like six other dishes, I was like, oh dude. And so then he was, he was, he had a problem.2 (28m 21s):He didn't actually have the problem, but we were, so we, we had to close and we were going to go get ice cream and he's like, I can't do it. Luckily we walked. Right. So we could move a little bit. I was fine, but we don't do really. We don't do presence. So like, not that we don't either. Yeah. Because everything you buy is sort of like, I mean, you know, you, you have the money for what you need and then if you have extra money, it's usually for things that are going to be urgent, like you have to fix something in your car, right. Oh, for me, it's like any extra money goes towards my Hoka recovery sandals and my Hoka. Okay. What's a mile sent me a video of you doing a Hoka dance.2 (29m 2s):What is a Hoka? Okay. So whole, because our shoes that I believe hookah Ona, Ona, which is one, one, but it's, I believe Hawaiian, Japanese influent look, I'm ignorant. I don't know. But it is not pronounced one, one. That's all I know it's own. I own a, and so Hoka on it own, it is the name of a company they make for me, with my plantar fasciitis in my right foot and just getting old Sebas shoes. Like I'm wearing my hookup. I'm wearing them right now. You can't see, but like, they are there. Some of them are, but ugly like platform. Like, like they look like a platform sneakers sometimes, but like, like the janky brand, but they aren't, they are there's walking shoes and trail shoes.2 (29m 52s):And I tried to run a them and it's a little clunky, but their soul light and they're really expensive, but they also make a recovery slide. Okay. So this is a very Californian situation, but in your, my floors are so hard and because it's fake wood right. In our apartment and I have bad feet. So I, you know, feet problems right now. So my doctor was like, you cannot walk barefoot. And it's so warm in California. Barefoot is the worst you can't work or people shouldn't walk. You should not walk barefoot on hard surfaces. No, no, no. I know it's not a good deal. So even so in California, it's so warm.2 (30m 34s):You're like, I'll just put on my flip flops. Terrible idea. Flip-flops should be abolished unless they are orthotic flip-flops this is partially how I got into my problem. So I have higher arches, but even if you have regular arches, my friends, you need support on your feet, especially as you get older. So I didn't know this. It's not even like flip flops or the new high heels, like what we shouldn't be doing, you know? Oh my God, that's insane. And my acupuncture has been saying this Liz I'm so sorry. I'd never listened to you. She said this for years, I saw her 10 years ago. And she was saying this, so recovery slides are Hoka makes a recovery slide, which is basically like a slide, like an Adidas or van slide.2 (31m 16s):But they're like super orthopedic. They're not pretty, I mean, minor kind of pretty cause they're blue. But like, they look like, yeah, regular slides, but they're super tall. And this made out of this really light, plastic and rubber, and they are so comfortable for when you come home, you take off your shoes and you don't go barefoot, you go in your recovery. So it's like, how shoes, how shoes? But like for like people would stuff. Yeah. They're really expensive. Like hookahs are like $175, $200 shoes. And the recovery slides are one 50. It's not cheap. Like I had to save up, we used our fucking credit card points for my Hoka collection.2 (31m 57s):Like that's what I'm saying. Like that, that's what it's for. Right. So anyway, so my jam and like, you know, people, you know, like I feel like Eddie Vetter is a big Hoka fan. It's like a hippie kind of thing. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, you know, I'm sure any better has a good need for support. Just like the rest of us so old, like we are. But also I was gonna say like, I actually didn't know, my husband sent you that video. That's hilarious. What? Oh, so cute. He's only ever texted me twice, but both times he started with this is miles, which is adorable. And I want him to be like, I know I have your number saved into my phone, 55.2 (32m 39s):So anyway. Yeah. I think he, I think he, you know, I think he thinks that you're the greatest thing ever, which I love because you are, and I'm glad that you have somebody who thinks you're the greatest thing. Oh, it's much better than what I used to have. Yeah. I know much better. The diametric opposite. Opposite. Yeah. No, if people like, no, I was telling someone's people in LA that are like younger than us, but approaching 40 are always like dating in LA is the worst. And I'm like, it is, it's really bad here. It's really, really bad. And I would tell them stories about when I was here in oh six and it was the worst or oh five.2 (33m 22s):And it was the worst. Is it really bad? Just because of the problem of like everybody's posturing. Cause it's like that in New York, I think to people, you know, people are at that phase of life where they're really just trying to make something of themselves. And it's a lot about like getting to the next, whatever. Yeah. I think it's what you talk about, which is just straight up sexism where like the men who are okay. So no one, my friend is like 38. I think she said my co-working friend. And she was just saying that like the men, her age, won't date, 38 year olds, they will only date 28 year olds. So she has to date 68 year olds or 58 year olds.2 (34m 5s):Okay. All right. That's the problem. It's so boring. I'm like, you know what? Fuck, this it's diagnostic too. Like when you, when you read about people, you know, the Leonardo DiCaprio's of the world who only ever it's like, okay, but so that's, that's either because you are psychologically, emotionally, whatever yourself, still 20. So you need, or it's because you are so narcissistic that you need somebody who's docile and who you can basically tell what, you know, whatever your garbage is too. And they'll believe you because they're so young. I always knew that about Leonardo DiCaprio, but I just recently read about somebody else who it's like, it's like everybody it's like Larry, David, it's not, it's not even like, like sexy young youngish dudes or middle-aged dudes.2 (34m 53s):It's like everyone. And, and, and it's just so other dudes will say, oh my God, look at that dude. He got that young chick women don't give a fuck. I said, the other thing is it's. It's interesting. Cause when I worked for Nick cage, he married someone 20 years younger. She was awesome. I loved her. I love that. He's still married. No, I loved Alice. I loved her and it wasn't her fault, but it was a really apparently a match that, you know, didn't last. But what I realized in getting to know Alice was that it's like, right. I it's not, it's not her fault.2 (35m 33s):Like she, she's just trying to live her life. And she's also 2020. I was basically five years old. So like let's not get right. So anyway, I also know, like I try not to shame the women in those situations because I'm also like, yeah, but, but it's just a bad situation. I'm just like the And minus your shirt, you did some change.2 (36m 15s):I did a costume change. I was listening to God. I love Leslie Odom Jr. In Hamilton so much. Oh, have we never talked about that? I have never seen Hamilton or heard the music. Me neither until like six months ago when Gisa gave me a ticket to Hamilton in LA and it was not obviously Leslie, it was not that cast, but I thought I would hate it. Like I literally was like, I cannot do this. Like I, and then despite my best efforts to hate it for some reason, and to just want to be a hater, I fell in love with that musical, like fell in love.2 (36m 57s):And I was like, I'm in I'm all in. I don't, I cannot explain. I think it was also because I was in a place where I was like, holy shit, people make stuff like this, it's it. He takes the acting, the singing, the dancing. I was like, this is like, why we have, you know, this is the best of humanity, the very, very, very, very best. And then I got obsessed with the original soundtrack because it's, it's just, they're they're just brilliant. And the guy who plays Aaron Burr is Leslie Odom Jr. Who I didn't know from shit. Right. Obsessed. Like the guy, Aaron Burr is my favorite character in the whole show. He's the guy who kills Hamilton.2 (37m 38s):Right. So yeah. Well Lin Manuel Miranda did. I'm not sure if it was all of the music, but certainly some of the music for, in condo. Have you seen in content? Yeah. So I have such a weird relationship with that movie. I was curious about that, considering that it's about Columbia. Well, the thing is like, and I think people think I'm crazy for saying this, but like they never say it's Columbia. Like they never, they like, they, they have some of the soups they use in the colors they use for the, the, the Colombian flag colors. And like, but they never are specific. And it's also written by so Lin, Manuel is not Colombian. And also Shariece Castro Smith who wrote and developed it is Cuban.2 (38m 20s):What do we do? I have to take issue with, they do say that it's Columbia, but it said in the lyrics, I said, oh, okay. I mean, but it's certainly not referenced like how many times Mexico is referenced cocoa. And I did have that thought like, well, Lin, Manuel Miranda is not collided, but the, but the music is really good. Music is brilliant. And I also think it's a huge step in the right direction. I just, I like wanted to love it more is one of those things. And that's a thing. And also I actually loved west side story. I didn't see it yet. See it, and let's have a talk about it.2 (39m 1s):I loved it. And people think also I'm insane for that. I was like the acting in west side fucking story is like, it's like a masterclass in this shit. Everyone, every single character I've heard that. I, I really haven't heard too many people not liking it. You know, people have find the musical very problematic and mama mama. And of course, of course everything is problematic. Like everything. Okay. Everything is so problematic. I know I just, yesterday saw the news that Pamela Anderson is going to be Roxie Hart and I you're making the same face that I made.2 (39m 42s):And then I saw today on Twitter people saying like, Hey, you know, this is a person who was recently publicly humiliate re humiliated after what re what she originally suffered, which is tantamount to, I guess it's the same it's revenge porn. Yeah. Let's give her this. And also Chicago has always cast stunt done stunt casting. That's that's Erika Jayne. The real Housewives of Beverly Hills was the last person who party. I'm not getting you. Oh my God. Yeah, no, I, I, I think it says, yeah. And also you're right.2 (40m 22s):It's like, why not? Like why don't we might as well just like, let her have it. And also she couldn't be fucking good. I don't know from this lady, it could be great. And also like it's Chicago, it's not Shakespeare. Right? Public. I have such a fear. It's funny Shakespeare at the public story. You do well, you might have to tell it cause we might have no interviews today. That's right. We can talk anyway. So I love the Hamilton song, wait for it, which is Aaron Burr's song. And he's talking about his family. And anyway, I just wanted to hate it so much.2 (41m 4s):Gina. I wanted to like be the one person that was like, this is garbage and this is, I really wanted that. And then when I saw it, I was weeping openly. And the people next to me were like, cause they had seen it. Everyone's seen it a million times. Right. So people who go to the LA show have seen it like on Broadway or like the Disney plus online situation. I didn't see shit. It was my first experience. And I was like, this is the greatest thing that ever was ever made. It's just, okay, I'm going to have to watch it. I I've been a hater for no good reason. And I should probably watch it. I think the thing that was off putting to me initially is like how much people liked it and how much like, I mean, just like older, white people, I just thought, okay, well you're really excited to hear rapping in this anachronistic way, but I, I think many, many people who I respect greatly think it's one of the best pieces of I did.2 (42m 8s):And I also just think like, you're right. Like I think it's all a combo platter, like super, super, super, super white people. Love it. And also, and all people love it too. Right. I mean, girl, I don't know. I just feel like, yeah, that was, it was, it was brilliant. So like on my spare time, like I listened to the soundtrack and I never thought I would do that. It's a very motivating, like I oh, okay. And also like if it's even one 18 super true to history, which I think it is super true in a way, then I've learned more than I ever have about his American history. So like, oh my God.2 (42m 49s):That's that is, I believe that I learned what kind of learner I am when I was in ninth grade. Yeah. Ninth grade. I took a very hard history class. It was honors world civilization. Oh my God. I remember that class. I took the same class and got exams were oral. What? So the exams were oral. So basically you had to say the hits, the broad points of the history of civilization from beginning to now.2 (43m 32s):Sounds very scary. It wasn't at all. Oh, I memorized it like a monologue and I freaking learned the history of world civilization that way. And it was news to me that I could have read that textbook a million times. I could have studied flashcards. So the cows came home. I would net I got a perfect score on this exam. And it's because I learn kinesthetically. Yeah. I need to have a story and I need to be involved with yes. I mean to the one number one way I learn is teaching others. And, and the funny, because I, I hate teaching. I hate teaching my husband.2 (44m 13s):That's a very, I should say I hate teaching my husband, but like teaching people that, that don't make me insane. I, I learn it. Like I remember I was like the best trainer at my hostess job because I loved it. I was like, oh, Hey one, you get to train people how to do it the way you like it to be done. And also you get to relearn it. And also to refresher, I loved being the trainer. I was like, I will do the training. I will do the training. Interesting. Very interesting. Okay. So what is your story about what'd you say you had a story about, oh, oh, oh, oh shit.2 (44m 53s):We are old. What the fuck it was about? I, all I keep thinking of is Charleston fucking shoe, but I told that story, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute on it. Oh my God. We'd have to replay the fucking tape. Yo to little oh, oh Hamilton. Before we were talking about what was the first thing we were talking about. And I looked and I said it was when I was doing, see, we were distracted. We were both checking our emails, the email, when you, right. Well, anyway, I have a lot of shame stories, so it could be any kind of same story. So it was, oh, I said Monica times.2 (45m 34s):No, it was w it had something to do with like acting or Hamilton or I had a no, or, oh God. Or maybe you thought maybe it was maybe when I started talking about in content, maybe you said you had a story about Hamilton. No. And console, what side story? The acting all it. Well, I will tell you that, like, there is something about obviously the pandemic that has reignited my absolute awe for performers, that nail shit. Like I absolute all I I'm like, especially people that can sing and dance and act at the same time.2 (46m 15s):I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I don't give a shit. So, oh. And the other thing that I was going to say about Hamilton was in the audience. People are like, like poo-pooing the LA production. They're like critiquing it at, at, at the, I was gonna say halftime at intermission. They're like talking shit about it. And I just said, the ladies next to me, because look, they've become so nitpicky because they've seen it for a thousand times in every different place and all that. And I'm like, I just turned to them. I was sitting by myself, she got me a solo ticket because they couldn't get tickets together with her sister and whatever. And the two ladies had clearly seen it. And the guy over here had been like, seen it like a million times.2 (46m 57s):And they were like talking to each other about like, oh, it's not that, you know, th this, the Hamilton's not that strong. And this is, and I said to me, I said to myself, and then I said to them, I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Can you do that? Let me just tell you something. Our fat ass is sitting over here. These people are throwing chairs around on stage also while singing and while remembering Lear rap lyrics, like shut up. Yeah. Shut up. Oh, by the way. So what's, how are you your rewatch of drag race? Okay. Much better. So, so I think at the time I, I obviously was youngers.2 (47m 38s):What were unseasoned? What 13, 18. I don't know. I think it's 13, which I'm crazy. So at the time, when I first watched the first season, whatever year that was in, I did not have any appreciation for healing of any kind. And I also didn't. I was so entrenched in my little world in Los Angeles that like I thought I saw drag race as a gag. Right. It was all a gag. A RuPaul was a gag. I didn't take it seriously. I was like super at 20 in my late twenties, early thirties. And it's really good. And it's also really, I'm not, so, yeah.2 (48m 18s):Right. I'm not so interested in the drama. Right. I'm interested in the artistry of the whole thing and how they create the costumes and the characters. And this time watching it, I'm like, oh, these people are brilliant. They're, they're brave and brilliant humans that are doing a really brave thing come that has come out of the need to sort of the, the revolutionary act of not wanting to shrink. Right. Of like gonna kill themselves if they don't do this. And I have to say, like, I only rewatched the first half of the first season, because then I got hooked into this Brazilian crime drama, which is a documentary about fucking crazy shit in Brazil.2 (49m 3s):Brazil is a terrible, I could never live in Brazil, but anyway, so, so drag race. Now I have such a new found respect for the performers. And also as, as a revolutionary drag, as a revolutionary act of self-preservation yes, yes. Agreed. And if you want to skip to the good stuff you could skip to season five, season five has, I'm sending myself a cast, quite a cast. And, and as time goes on, not only does the show get better because it has a bigger budget, but also Ru Paul is honing in on what he's, it's actually very, it reminded me a lot of your understanding of the meaning of our podcast as time has gone by.2 (49m 51s):And you've been saying for a long time, it's a service we're doing and it's offering healing to people. I think we're Paul figure that out, you know, throughout the course of, and he's, he leans much more heavily into people because almost everybody who is on there has been traumatized, abused, kicked out of their house. All the shit. Parents don't know that they're on drag race. Parents don't know that they do drag P they think it's. Yeah. So I think you'll really like that aspect of it. If you, you know, if you, if you like it enough to stick with it. And I also just think that I, there it is impossible. This is the conundrum of life.2 (50m 32s):It's impossible to not be a self-centered asshole when you're in your twenties and thirties or late thirties. Right. Right. Right. And so I look back at some of the shit I did and said, and thought about other people and their cultures and their, and I thought, oh my God, how dare I? I was, I, I was not, look, I'm not saying an awful person, but really the audacity of youth to be like, yeah, you're not cool. Or you, you, this doesn't benefit me in any way. So I'm not going to pay it any mind. In fact, I'm going to shit talk. It just, I mean, it's summed up with my John C. Riley story of never having seen Punchdrunk glove and talking shit about it to the star or no, not punch drunk, love to the star of boogie nights, the audacity of, of, of, of my youth and trauma and whatever to lie.2 (51m 29s):So blatantly and do it and lie about a mean thing. What are you, my take on that story has always been, you felt so less than yeah. With him. Yeah. That you, that you, which is not typical for you, that you, that you found a way to make him feel less than you. Oh yeah. It's not typical, but I do it. I do it with my husband all the time, which is like, if I'm, I'm now going through, I'm doing all this deep, deep trauma work in therapy and it's, and I'm also gonna start, I'm going to do an MDM age journey on it. So, so, but I'm doing all this stuff is coming up.2 (52m 10s):And I w when I am it's, so you've said it I've said it hurt people, hurt people, but it's very more specific than that. What happens to me is I sense it. I say the same thing when my husband hurts my feelings and it's really not my husband, it's, my feelings are hurt because I'm going through trauma, we're in a pandemic. And we live in a S in an end-stage capitalism. Like that's what's going on, but my husband is the trigger. And I will literally say things like I'm going to leave and not come back. And it is because I want to leave my trauma. I want to leave this shit show and go somewhere where I don't have to look at my trauma.2 (52m 52s):And I mean, that's exactly what I want to do. And so we have to, but that's what I do with John C. Riley. It's like, I, I'm not enough. I hate myself. And so I'm wanting to destroy you the way I feel destroyed. Literally. Yeah. It, it comes up so fucked up. I saw on the media about watching Tinder swindler.2 (53m 34s):Did you watch it? Yes. Okay. What it comes down to ladies and gentlemen is a study in why people hate women. It's really sad. It's like, really? But, you know, he targets women who are wanting love. Is this a documentary or a fictional documentary? Okay. And there might be a reenactments, but it's a documentary about eight, eight guy who Swindells women. But what you, what I was left with was okay. He picks on women who want love, who also want a man who is not broke and not, they don't have to pay his phone bill.2 (54m 16s):Right. Cause that's the experience of a lot of us. So when he, of course, when he, this swindler presents himself as, as rich as hell, that doesn't hurt. But then what you get is the backlash of people saying, well, that bitch was a gold Digger. She deserved to be swindled. So they got a huge backlash for being victims of this guy. It's horrific because if you weren't a gold Digger, then you wouldn't. So it comes down to, if you want to look at it as I couldn't have pure fun with it, because it was at the expense of women looking for love, and then being blamed as the victim, as a gold Dick. It's like, it's like sexism on task plus sexism on top of sexism.2 (54m 57s):And I though it didn't raise me. Maybe I'm not going to watch it. Not fun is what I'm saying. Maybe if it was a woman swindling, the men, I think that would have been a better, more, anti-Trump kind of a situation. But like what you're getting is a guy who's literally gaslighting women. And, and for, for, for, you know, I don't know, it's a five-hour situation. I want to watch a documentary called grinder finder, or they just follow guys having their random hookups. What I'm interested to know about that is people, I guess it's not just men, but people who pursue only the hookup on these apps is this satisfying.2 (55m 44s):I mean, is it like, yeah, I met this person. We had sex. I never saw them again. It was great. Or, or is there any bit of it? That's you know what I mean? Oh, I know what you mean. It doesn't work. Doesn't work. Does it feel good? I mean, what I'm led to believe about men, sexuality is this is ideal for them, you know, just a nameless, anonymous sex with no, I think it comes down to like what the intention is behind it. But like, I just, you know, whenever people talk about polyamory or, and this, this is different than just a hookup, I'm not comparing polyamory to just hook up culture.2 (56m 26s):But what I am saying is it a lifestyle that is different from mine that I don't understand whenever I think about engaging in behavior like that, whether it's having multiple partners or just had gone for the sex, what I end up with is depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation for myself. That's what I'm saying. Like, if you can do it without those things, I'm like, you go motherfuckers. But for me, I'm like, I don't see how this leads anywhere, but where I was at the age of 29, which was, yeah. And you know, then there's an argument to be made for, like, if you are in your twenties, you were going to do this one way or the other, you know, you're going to have these unsatisfying heartbreaking relationships one way or the other, maybe the advantage of doing it through these apps is that you have a little bit more data.2 (57m 16s):I mean, in the olden days, if you would just meet somebody and it was a one night stand and all you had was their Pedro, a number like that. That's all you had. That's all the information you had to go on this way. You can, which I've heard. It turns into a, a bad thing too. Like when people start stocking and they can't stop themselves from cyber-stalking like their one night stand their hookup. It's a double-edged sword. That would be me. I would be in jail if it were, if it were now I would be in jail for cyber-stalking like the only reason I'm not in jail for cyber-stalking is because we didn't have that because you were born in 1975.2 (57m 57s):Yeah. But I told you about the phone calls I made, right? No. Oh yes. When you called January. I think when the 85 times my boss was like, what? So that's probably a crime that's talking. So I am grateful that my, my anti-depressant has killed my sex drive in some ways. I'm also grateful to be married in some ways, like, look, do I miss the excitement of the chase of the, the, the, that, that butterflies in the stomach. I miss that, but I have to be honest, like the data for me, the evidence shows it never went in the right direction.2 (58m 37s):Like, no. And when you, and when your mind is all so consumed, and it is a nice feeling in a way, but when your mind is all so consumed by falling in love, everything else falls apart, you know what I mean? Like you stop pursuing your career, you stop pursuing like your other life goals. They had any kind of self care goes right out the window for me. And, you know, I'm and I did I ever tell you the story about the famous person who shall remain nameless? That I was in a, met in a, in a group setting that the trellis climbing incident. Okay. Okay. This is, this is fantastic. They needed to make a true crime about this. There's a woman who is who I'm not friends with in any way, but met, randomly and said we were, I was her, this is in I in 2000.2 (59m 23s):And like, I dunno, I dunno. I met her in Chicago and this was like, once I started to get better in my brain about that mental health stuff. We were, I was talking about how I was so dysfunctional in my relationships with men and she's like, oh, you think you're just functional? And this is a gorgeous, stunning lady that you're like, no problem. She's got no problem. She's like, you think that's just functional? I was like, oh God. Oh God. And she said, I was married before. And two, this guy who was a player and I was like, okay. And she's like, and I, I just was obsessed with him. And I knew, I knew that he was cheating and he admitted it.2 (1h 0m 4s):And so then he said he was gonna stop. And then I got pregnant. She says, and I got pregnant. And I had this feeling. He was still cheating, but he kept saying he wasn't right. So she's pregnant. And she, I don't know how many months pregnant. And she's like, he just kept, I just had that, this crazy feeling. And of course it was like, you know, he would tell me I was crazy. It was a whole gaslighting situation. But anyway, so she, in the middle of the night, he was on a business trip and in the middle of the night, she's like, I fucking have to know. I ha she's pregnant. I have to know she goes to his office. Cause that's where he kept it somewhere else in, in the city, not in their home. He, she knew that there was going to be information in the office, but she couldn't get it.2 (1h 0m 48s):Right. She fucking climbs a trellis, pregnant, a trellis, like a trellis, pregnant endangering her life, her baby's life, a criminal, whatever trespassing, even though some husband climbs breaks into his office with like punches, like puts a, a towel around her hand, breaks it breaks office and go through stuff. He's cheating. She finds all kinds of data on his. And she thought to herself, that's when I, she said, that's when I hit bought my bottle and she's sitting there like kind of bloodied.2 (1h 1m 28s):Cause it didn't work all the way to cover her hand bloodied with the evidence she was. Right. Of course. And I think, remind it reminded me of something that an ex of mine had said, when I went, go snooping through his phone, Dave, who then died, who that's, you know, my, my ex and I was snooping through it. It wasn't even really an ex, but he is stupid snooping through his phone. And he goes, look, if you need to Snoop, you're going to find something you don't want to see if you, if that instinct in you, is there. Yeah, it was right. He was absolutely right. I found all kinds of stuff that I didn't want to didn't want to say.2 (1h 2m 10s):So these are these stories that I'm like, oh my God, it doesn't matter what you look like. It doesn't matter. And my heart breaks for that Chloe Kardashians and her fucking, except at the same time, I'm like, okay, but you keep picking these guys. You keep picking these people who absolutely will 1000%, never, never, never not cheat on you. What are you going to do differently? And her answer so far is I'm going to get more plastic surgery. I'm going to diet more. I'm going to exercise. I mean, she has a whole show called revenge body. That is disgusting. That your whole reason for making your body into a certain way is to get revenge on somebody.2 (1h 2m 55s):Like, what are we doing? It's gone all the way left. You want to know even more fucking left. I met someone who was a fucking contestant on that show or like, cool, really? Oh, I actually, I didn't realize it was a shit contest show. They had like a, and she was so fucking crazy. I I've never met a crazier human being in my life. Like wow, never met a crazier human being in my life. And I have treated all levels of crazy. She was the craziest. But anyway, so yeah, you're right. It is the lengths weak, like using our bodies as a weapon, using our bodies, hurting our bodies. It is. And it's one of those things where even if we sat down, you know, Chloe, you, if you ever listened to the show, you're welcome to come on.2 (1h 3m 41s):But even if we sat down and said, all the things you will, people do not change until they are a, in enough pain to change or be angry enough to change. It has to come from within. So like, I'm not sure any amount of intervention with these people. And that's what this woman said. And I know it to be true for me until my dad died. And I was stripped of all resources. Was I able to see that my previous behavior in relationships, especially with men was toxic and killing me and not nice to them either. But it took, it took that it took everything being stripped from me too, to even make any kind of small change.2 (1h 4m 26s):So like, I'm not sure it's so it's such a hard job to try to help someone change because, because they have to do it on the, and so encoded. And because for me, I had, I had to walk such a distance to figure out that the problem was me. I had to try, I had to exhaust every other possibility of who else I could blame. I had to chalk my behavior up to absolutely anything, but what it was, which is I'm recapitulating the same situation that I was literally in coded to, to, to look for B because I, you know, had a father who rejected me, like, yeah.2 (1h 5m 13s):And, and, and, and, and it surprised, I think her father rejected, there's all this stuff about who is her father. And if it's, yeah. I mean, magic people thinking in a funny way that a, an accused double murderer, who is people, you know, who has a plethora of problems and his own trauma is your fucking unknown father. Fuck, that's his claim to fame. It's not right. So here's what I wish. I wish that we all find that in ourselves, that that point without so much pain, but it usually comes with pain to say, oh shit, I don't want to climb any more trellises.2 (1h 5m 55s):I just don't want to risk my life. And my unborn child's life or whatever was risk, whatever the risk is to, to try to, to get this love or this, what I think is going to be the fix for my internal whole, you know, like, I, I wish for us that we would do it in a way we could find that sort of, we could make the realization without having to go through so much heartache, but maybe it takes what it fucking takes. And it takes what it takes. I wish it was different, but a, because somebody could tell you all of these things, a future you could come to, to yourself at 20 and tell you these things.2 (1h 6m 38s):And you might still not believe them because you have to, you know, a lot of experiences you just have to have and told me, stop doing this to yourself. Older women that I was friends with were like, this guy doesn't love you. Like you, like, this is not what you think it is. I didn't get, I didn't pay him any mind. Yeah. Because it's the same thing. Like with theater school, like, yeah. But I'm the exception for me. It's different. You, that's fine for you to say for other people, but for me, it's different. Yeah. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends.2 (1h 7m 23s):I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Crypto bros, missing the great economic bubbles of the early 2000s. We may as well have cotton candy furniture, Severance on Apple TV, Bad Vegan. Let Me Run This By You: Stage Moms, kindergarten theatre.Interview: We talk to Joe Basile about Long Island accents, NYU Tisch, Bradley Walker, Ensemble Studio Theatre, Liz Lerman's Critical Response Process, Mary Zimmerman's Metamorphoses, the Neo-Futurists Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind (The Infinite Wrench), perfectionism, Roundabout Theatre Company, A Bright Room Called Day, Suzan Lori Parks, Go Humphrey, sock puppet Showgirls, keeping the thread of community after college ends.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (32s):Okay. I'm getting, I'm getting it together. I, Yeah, I woke up with this really interesting idea that I wanted to run by you, which was, cause I was really tired when I woke up and I thought, okay, everyone's tired when they wake up. And then I thought, well, and they always say like, Americans, you know, never get enough sleep. We're always tired. But like nobody ever investigates why really? Why that is that our system is really fucked up. So like, I don't know. I just was like, yeah, we always do all these like expos A's on like sleep or wellness. Right? Like Americans are the fattest and the most unhealthy. And I'm only speaking about Americans because that's where we live. I don't know shit about Madrid.2 (1m 13s):You know, I'm sure they're they have their own plethora of fucking problems. But I'm just saying like, we don't actually do the work to like, figure out what is wrong. We're just like, Americans are, this Americans are that nobody's getting enough sleep. And like, there's all these, you know, sort of headlines. Right. And we're not just like, well, why is nobody getting enough sleep? Like what is actually happening? So that was my grand thought upon waking up was like, yeah, like, I don't know. We just never dig deep in this case. We're not big on digging.4 (1m 46s):Probably not. I mean, I think our lifestyle overall is pretty unhealthy and it's because of our economic model.2 (1m 58s):What I was gonna say, it all boils down to see the thing is the more you talk to people, the more I do the angrier I get, especially like in my office, like slash co-working, like I gravitate towards the ladies and a lot of ladies of color. And we end up sitting around talking about how like capitalism and systematic racism and sexism are all tied together and how, and by the end, we're just so angry. We're like, okay, what can we do? And we're like, okay, well we need to stop putting money in the pockets of this old white man who owns the coworking. But like we have nowhere else to go. So we're like, now we're screwed. So anyway, it's interesting. It's like it all, every conversation I have of meaning with you or with my cousin and it all boils down to the same thing.2 (2m 43s):And then you end up thinking, I ended up thinking the really, the only way is mass extinction and starting over with a new species, fresh slate, fresh or revolution, right. Or some kind of bloody revolution, it's going to be bloody because you know, the, the, the, the people in power aren't going to let go as we see. So like, we're not, it's not good is all, but I don't feel necessarily like, and maybe it's because I took MTMA, but like, I don't necessarily feel terrible about it. I feel just like, oh yeah, like we're, we're headed towards this way, unless something drastic happens. And I'm not sure that's a terrible thing. Now I don't have children.2 (3m 23s):So I might feel totally different about my children and my children's children and their children, but I just don't, that's not my frame of mind. So anyway, that's what I was thinking as I was so tired, waking up.4 (3m 35s):Is there any world in which you and the other women in coworking can just put your, just rent and office?2 (3m 44s):So we're starting to organize to like, be like, okay, you know, like who would want to go in on a lease, you know? But the thing is, it's so interesting. It's like, well, maybe it's LA, but it's also the world. Like, people don't really trust it. Like we don't really know each other that well yet. So we'd have to like do credit checks and thank God. My credit is good. Thank God. Now it was terrible. But all this to say is that like also LA so transitory that people are like in and out and, and like my, you know, travel. It's just so it's such a weird existence, but we are talking and there's a guy, a black dude. Who's also like my financial guru guy who like, who works at co-working.2 (4m 28s):I met here, he's a mortgage guy. And he's just been like, talking to me all about fucking crypto bros and like how the crypto bros are like, he's like, it is insane. Now, Gina, did you know, now I'm just learning about this world. And he's like, it's all, make-believe basically we live in the matrix and that fucking, there is something called the virtual real estate. Did you know this? Okay, you can purchase virtual squares of real estate, like Snoop Dogg's house, like, like, and people are doing it. And the people who are, it's like a status thing and it's expensive. And the people who are becoming billionaires are the people who run the apps.2 (5m 9s):Right. Are the people who created the fucking program. We are in the matrix. And I was like, wait, what? And he showed me the site where you can buy any town. If you looked into your town, people are doing it. It is, it is consumerism mixed with people are buying things that don't exist.4 (5m 29s):Okay. Yeah. I feel like this is what happens when people with an unchecked power and privilege, it's like, okay, well, like literally we're just making it up. Let's just have cotton candy, be our furniture now. Like it's. So I tried to get into Bitcoin.2 (5m 50s):Oh yeah.4 (5m 51s):Like about five years ago, somebody that I went to high school with is rich from Bitcoin. And, and she was like one of the founders of one of these companies. And so the first problem I have is you shouldn't invest in anything that you don't understand. Right. So I tried to read about it and I'm just like, but what, I just kept reading and being like, yeah, but what is it? Right. You know, what's an NFT.2 (6m 20s):Oh my God. The NFTs. Oh my God. And his name is Lamont and I love him. And he was trying to teach me about those. And I was like, Lamont. I have to take some kind of drug to understand what you're saying. I don't,4 (6m 31s):I have, I, you know, I've read articles. I've had people explain it to me. I mean, I think what it is, is I do know what it is, but I'm just like, that can't be what people are spending that be that,2 (6m 43s):Yeah, because we're not stupid people. Like we can understand concepts of things.4 (6m 47s):The thing that got me off of cryptocurrency and, and FTS and all that is that it's so bad for the environment, blockchain, the amount of energy that's required to power blockchain is just like so destructive.2 (7m 3s):Okay. So this leads me to, so Lamont was like, you know, what's going on in the coworking row storage room. And I'm like, what? And of course me, I'm like, are there, is there like a torture chamber? That's why Was like, no, he's like one of the side businesses of the CEO of this place is to host these crypto machines that, that it's like credit card terminals, but for crypto. And so all the, all the crypto exchanges that go on need checks and balances, God, he's such a good teacher. He actually explained it to me. He's like, look, you, when you do a crypto exchange with somebody that has to be checked or else, how do you know you're actually getting shit, which is all like theoretical anyway.2 (7m 47s):But he's like, so then you have to create these machines that check the other machines. And those are some of those. And you get paid. It's just like having credit card terminals, right? It's like selling credit cards. You know, people that sell credit card terminals, like they make money off the, the things, the exchanges, the, the transactions, right? Transaction fees. It's like 10, 10 cents of whatever or something 4 cents. So we got machines in the fucking co-working that have nothing to do with coworking. And I re one day it was hotter than fuck over here. They take a lot of energy and Lamont Lamont goes to the guy, the crypto bro. Who's also the CEO of this coworking space who really wants to just be the crypto, bro.2 (8m 27s):He's like, listen, bro. Like, something's going to melt down. You got to have something to cool. These machines. I mean, it's a fucking disaster waiting to happen. We're all going to burn up because this motherfucker wants to do crypto. He's not even dude. He's just doing the terminals. They're called terminals. No wonder my motherfucking internet doesn't work. How much juice do these motherfuckers take? I got pissed. I got Lamont. And I got pissed. I said and Lamont so funny. He goes, yeah, I don't mind all this like virtual crypto shit, but I need some actual motherfucking green tee up in here. You haven't had green tea up in here for days.4 (9m 6s):This is what I'm going to say. This is a, like, when you all of this, when all of this starts swirling in my head and it's all overwhelming, I just go, oh, like, okay. But that's not for me. Like this whole ether, a world that's cotton candy furniture. Like that's not for me. I have to stick with what I know. I like go stick with your, with, with what's in your CTA, what's in your wheelhouse.2 (9m 30s):Right. She taught us. Catherine taught us that, right?4 (9m 33s):No, it was a2 (9m 35s):Catherine's job. Oh,4 (9m 38s):Josh. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about, the programs are called the, your concentration is called dementia anyway, like in the same way that, you know, people create art that other people criticize. And then you say, well, it's not for you. Like, I just know that none of that is for me. So, you know, because here's the thing we Erin and I have had near misses on like a bunch of bubbles. Right? We lived in California, we lived in the bay area during the, what they used to call the.com. And all of our friends had these hundred thousand dollars a year jobs and worked at Google and places and got Friday night, beer parties and lunch catered, whatever, every single day.4 (10m 23s):And we were just like, oh my God, we're so dumb. We can't, we don't know how to work in tech. We don't, we can't get to me take advantage of this opportunity. Then it was the housing market. And in 2004, it's like, wow, you could get a house. Like we could buy a house. Somebody would give us a mortgage. When we have no money in so much debt, we thought we should buy a house. We looked into buying a house that didn't work out. That turned out to be a good thing. I think the crypto thing is another, like, I'm not saying it's a bubble. Although it probably is. Cause we have to be in a bubble. But I'm saying like, I put myself at ease about not being able to really grasp these things by just saying like, oh, that's not for me.4 (11m 10s):That's not what I'm, that's not what I'm really like here on this planet to eat, to do2 (11m 16s):It interests me. And also, yeah, it's so bad for the environment. And also I just don't give a fuck. Also give me my fuck. Oh, we haven't had creamer up in this bitch for like, and I started, I was like, I don't give a fuck what you do here, but I need creamer. So if you don't like it and they finally got it, you bet your ass when Lamont and I were like, okay, green tea, we need it. And they got it. Cause we were like, fuck you. Like we're not stupid. And then the other thing that I wanted to say about the whole Bitcoin, oh the minimalist movement that these, these kids that are in their thirties are doing okay, listen to this. This is insane.2 (11m 56s):So kids are having and kids. Yeah. They're like 30, right? They're buying Teslas. Okay. But great. They buy a Tesla. Teslas are now equipped with so much shit that you can basically live in it. As long as you have a charging, they fucking park their shit and their parents' house. I'm not kidding you. So a lot of them were living with their parents. Right. And they were like, well, this fucking sucks, but they're saving all this money. Right. Cause it's so expensive. So there's sock away, their money. They buy a Tesla, they park the Tesla in their parents' fucking driveway. And they do experiments where they plug in and then they see if they can live in it. Okay. This is like a real thing.2 (12m 37s):Right? So it has everything you need except a shower and the bed, or like you, your seats go down. It's actually an, a toilet shower and a toilet. And then they get, so they have a Tesla,4 (12m 48s):They get,2 (12m 49s):They get, they get, they get a gym membership. Okay. So they had a Tesla and a gym membership and that's all they need. And they fucking don't own shit except crypto currency in their Tesla and fucking go around to different cities. And there's like all these Airbnb hacks and, and rental car hacks that if they travel, they travel around the country. Like the guy who is the CEO of this place, doesn't live here. He lives kind of an Austin kind of here is a test. It is the weirdest thing.4 (13m 22s):Okay. Well, when the Russians send nuclear missiles and we ended up having hand to hand combat with the Chinese or whatever, well, these fighting people gonna to do nothing.2 (13m 32s):I don't know how to do nothing. There'll be dead. No, no. But you and I are scrappy. Like we could figure it out. They're dead. And that's fine.4 (13m 41s):I always think of, I just said, I think like people used to hunt, you know, like w w where if our world is predicated on so much pretend and like, and like also just like this very thin margin of, well, it's all fine and good until the power grid goes out. It's all fine. And good until like, suddenly for whatever reason, there is just no internet,2 (14m 3s):Like, or they get hacked. Right,4 (14m 6s):Right. Yeah. It's all fine. And good until like everything that we put our hope hopes and dreams and faith into just doesn't work one day, because that's what happens with machines is they just, sometimes they write2 (14m 17s):And Lamont was saying, and I kind of agree with him that like, what he thinks is happening. So frantically the government is scrambling to get into crypto. Right. Frantically our government is like, we're going to have a fucking stake in this. So what he thinks is going to happen and like agree with him is that they're going to figure out a way to sabotage the crypto system and say, we, we now run the cryptosystem. He's like, I know it's a conspiracy theory, that kind of thing. But of course it's money. Right. So they're going to say, okay, okay. Like you guys are going to get screwed because someone's going to hack, you, let the government take over, we'll run crypto. And then of course,4 (14m 54s):Which takes away the main draw of crypto, which is that it's this currency that cannot be traced to everything. So the second there's any type of regulation that, that, and it's like, well, you might as well just be talking about dollars. Right. Because you know,2 (15m 9s):That's what they're going to do. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. We'll probably be dead, but that's okay.4 (15m 14s):Yeah. We'll probably be done. I'm watching this television show called severance. Oh,2 (15m 19s):Everybody loves severance.4 (15m 21s):Wow. Wow. Wow. It's it's woo. It's really something else. But what I love about it is it's kind of hard to explain, so I won't try to explain it, but there's suffice it to say the company that these people work for, the job that they do is they sit at these computer terminals and they there's just a screen full of numbers. And they have to put these digits into the correct bins at the bottom.2 (15m 53s):Okay.4 (15m 54s):Based on their feeling about the numbers, like these numbers are scary and these numbers are half. Yeah. It's so weird. Right? When I, when I see them, they're putting the numbers into this little bins in the bottom and I go cut. This is like my daughters, you know, like educational games. She has to do something like this. Well, it gets to the end of the season. And the they've, all this little department has leveled. The there's all this pressure on getting a certain quota by the end of the quarter. And it's, we don't, we're not gonna make it and we're not gonna make it.4 (16m 35s):We're not gonna make it at the last minute. They make it. And what making it looks like for them is that a pixelated cartoon character comes on and says like, basically you leveled up. So really it, I dunno if this is the point that they're trying to make, but it really looks like they're just playing a video game.2 (16m 58s):This is insane. I love it. It's the same.4 (17m 2s):It's really, really good. And I, and I reached out to all of the actors on there and seeing if anybody wants to be on our show, I got one person who was like, oh, that sounds interesting. I'm like, is that a yes and no, I never, I never heard anything back from her, but yeah, listen, humans are designed to work. So when you don't have to literally like, grow your own food and cut down your own wood, you have to find something to do. That feels work, work ish. And I feel like a lot of our industries are kind of work adjacent2 (17m 43s):And like, and like a lot of sorting into bins. Yeah.4 (17m 50s):You2 (17m 50s):See fucking bad vegan.4 (17m 55s):No, I was wondering if I should watch it.2 (17m 57s):Okay. Watch it. And we'll talk about it because whoa. It is, the Myles was a very frustrated with this documentary based on,4 (18m 9s):Oh, it's a documentary. Oh, I thought it was a tele. I thought it was a fictional show.2 (18m 13s):Oh, it they'll make a fictional show out of it. But it's a documentary about a woman who started a vegan restaurant and so much more in New York city. And it comes down to what we always said. And I'll wait until you watch it. But I, it just reinforces what we always talk about, which is if you have an unfulfilled, inner need from childhood, that shit will play out. I could trace this, her whole demise, her whole demise. And it's a whole crazy ass fucking story about this woman. Her whole demise comes down to the fact that Alec Baldwin did not pick her to date. Okay. That's it.2 (18m 53s):Okay.4 (18m 54s):Completely plausible. I completely understand that.5 (19m 1s):Let me run this by you.4 (19m 9s):I know my son got this part in a movie. And so the thing we wanted to run by you is I, Hm. So many things I get, I get stage moms. I understand why stage moms is a thing. When my son started getting into acting, he was five years2 (19m 35s):Old. Yeah. It was really young.4 (19m 37s):And my thing was, I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mum, which was reinforced by every time I've ever been on set. There's always at least one really out of control stage mom. And I think I told the story in the podcast before, but one time we, we were in a, he was doing Gotham that showed Bathum and there was like a gaggle of kids in this scene. And this one boy, I was just, you know, whatever. I was striking up a conversation with him and I said, oh, do you, do you really want to be an actor? And he said, no, my father makes me do this. I want to be at school.4 (20m 17s):And it was just so2 (20m 19s):Like,4 (20m 19s):God, and I met a lot of kids. This was back when he was doing all just all background stuff. I met a lot of that's where you find the most stage moms when the kids are like that, the stakes are just, couldn't be lower. Right. You know, they're just doing background, extra work, which is all just to say, though, I've had to be in dialogue with myself about what my aspirations are about working in film and television and my frustrated aspirations. And I, you know, I've had to just be constantly talking to myself about making sure that this is what he wants and not what I want. And in the classic thing that always happens is when he gets an audition, if he doesn't feel like doing it, it just, it becomes this thing.4 (21m 8s):And I always say, you don't have to be an actor. You don't have to have an agent, but if you're going to be an actor and you're going to have an agent, you have to do the audition.2 (21m 18s):That's true.4 (21m 19s):And you have to work at it and you have, you have to work hard at it. And that thing is actually really hard. And it takes a lot of work that we just kind of overcame this obstacle for the audition for this movie, because I made him put in maximum effort. Usually I don't usually, I'm just like, well, it's his career, you know, it's his life. If he doesn't want to work on it, why am I going to spend, you know, my whole time? But I'm really encouraged him to work on it. And he really did. And he did really well. And so now we're waiting to hear, you know, whether or not he's gotten it, but the first night that this was a thing, I couldn't sleep. I was awake. Like, I mean, part of it is thinking about the logistics.4 (22m 1s):Like how will I live in LA for a month when I have two other kids. Right. But the other part of it is just, what is this going to mean for him to, what's going to be what's next and what's next and what's next. And what's next. So I've talked a lot of shit about stage moms in the past. And I just want to say, if you're listening to this in your stage, mom, I get it. I get, I get, you know, because maybe this was your hope and dream, but also maybe just, you put a lot of effort into when you're the mom of the kid who wants to do this, it's so much work for the mom or the dad was the case may too much. It's, it's scheduling babysitters when you have other kids2 (22m 43s):Driving4 (22m 44s):Into the city for auditions paying for headshots every year, because they change so much every year communicating with doing the cell. I had to learn. This is actually how I learned how to do I moving because I had to, you know, work, learn how to edit his self-tapes and stuff like that. So, but have you encountered stage moms? Oh,2 (23m 7s):That's a great question. Yes. And I feel like I totally understand how moms and dads get and caretakers get to be that way. And I think also to remember for me is that it comes from this genuine usually place to want to help and protect your kid. And, and also, and then you mix that in with your own aspirations, which I would have to, if I had a child that I was shoveling around and also, yeah, I would encounter that. So I think I get it. And I also know that like when I worked at casting and at PR and I loved it, but they would occasionally be like moms that would bring in their kids or dads, but usually it's moms.2 (23m 57s):Right. Of course, who bring in their kids that were desperate to get the kid into the face of the casting directors. So they'd hang around. They didn't want to ingratiate themselves to casting at the audition. They'd come into the office and, and, you know, to their credit of my bosses, PR casting, they were lovely. Like they, but, but they also had work to do so. It was like, these kids are just sort of standing there smiling. And the mom is like pushing them and we all, it was very uncomfortable and it doesn't actually work like what works is being professional on set, doing a great job in the room, being a nice kid and being a nice parent, but it just feels like, and we know this from being actors.2 (24m 45s):It just feels like you have to like, sort of ingratiate and push yourself into the faces of the people with power in order to get anywhere. So then there's like these really uncomfortable moments of like talking about nothing while we're trying to get work done in the office, especially like, yeah, they have a lot of work to do. So it was just, it was just very, and you'll see when we go to PR like it's all glass. So like, you can see what the casting directors are doing in the office. So you want to be in there because it looks really fun.4 (25m 16s):Right. And2 (25m 18s):Actors who are like, quote, special, get to go in there and say, hi, like I'm friends with the, with the casting directors is the, is the idea. I'm not saying I'm like someone is, and then they get to go. It's just like a really weird thing. And it's also, it's very hard to navigate and I get it too. We, we, we want to be liked and loved and picked and chosen. And it is a universal thing.4 (25m 44s):I want the same thing for our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.2 (25m 48s):I don't. I've had never had anyone that has been bonkers, you know, but maybe, yeah. I never, yeah, never.4 (25m 55s):Yeah. I think really they're bonkers behavior. I think actually, probably the kids are the ones who absorbed the brunt of it, which is, you know, and also it's really hard to teach a kid about acting because you're, as we've said many times, you're, you're trying to figure out how to play a character when you don't even know who you are. I mean, that's really true for a kid and trying to teach them, it's supposed to be it's. Yes. It's pretend, but you're supposed to be sincere and no, you're not the character, but yes, you have to be there. It's a lot of mental gymnastics,2 (26m 32s):Impossible. And like, if you don't know how to communicate that to a kid, let alone, the kid know how to do it. It's a mess. And then you're just, it's just kind of a crap shoot. Like, especially when you wouldn't see that were two and three years old.4 (26m 47s):Oh, see, now that I can't2 (26m 51s):Was like, yeah, some kids are, I mean, it's just to me, I thought it was amazing, but I also didn't have an agenda. I'm trying to get shit done. Like the directors and the producers on the, everyone is trying to get shit done in the room. And I have a kid doesn't, you know, whatever the kid is literally three years old. So like, I thought it was amazing, but I, they it's, it's a nightmare.4 (27m 15s):Yeah. Did I ever tell you the story of when I taught drama to kindergarten?2 (27m 21s):I know you did, but I don't know.4 (27m 24s):I had this job at this school called head Royce in the bay area. I got a job teaching after-school drama to kindergartners. It might've been my very first teaching thing. No, but it was early on and I hadn't taught, I certainly hadn't taught like my full-time teaching job that I eventually had at a middle school, but not having children and not having taught. I thought we were just going to do a play, you know, like They were going to memorize their lines. I seriously thought I seriously picked a play.2 (28m 5s):What was it? Do you remember? Was it like fucking, wouldn't it be funny if it was like, you know,4 (28m 10s):Romeo and Juliet2 (28m 11s):Steel Magnolias or something like just like totally amazing.4 (28m 15s):And it was age appropriate because it, it, it turned out to have whatever it was. I can't remember. But it was also a children's book, which I, oh, oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I adapted a children's book.2 (28m 29s):Oh my God. Okay.4 (28m 32s):And the entire time we were working on it, it never occurred to me that they couldn't memorize their lives. I just kept being like, well, maybe by next week, they'll know it. My next week they'll know it until it came time to do the performance and all the parents came and I shit, you not, it didn't occur to me until all the parents were walking in. Every single one of them had a video camera. This is before cell phones that, oh my God, they are expecting a show. And I guess I was too. And they don't know, we don't have a shell.2 (29m 7s):It look like my God, this is brilliant.4 (29m 10s):I got to the point for awhile. I was like doing the knee. I was the narrator. Right. And, and then they was supposed to be saying their lines, but then they would never say their lines. So then basically what it amounts to is I just read the entire book. Would2 (29m 26s):They do4 (29m 27s):Well, the kids just stood there. And the middle of it, when kid in the middle of my, and of course the more anxious and, and terrible, I felt like the more forced and forced, I must have looked crazy. I wish I could say videos. I bet I looked like a complete lunatic and in the middle of it as, and I'm also getting louder and louder. It's like, I would love to, I'm sure those parents are erased, taped over those tapes, but I would love to see just frantic me and I'm getting read By the time it was over, I just went to the headmaster's office.4 (30m 16s):And I was like, I did a terrible job. You should never hire me again. This was a complete disaster. And they were like, yeah, maybe this isn't your thing.3 (30m 39s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Joe, the seal, Joe is an actor and a writer and a content creator and a former Neo futurist. He has got a going on and he is lovely and charming and personable and a marketing genius. He has his own company. Now. He is all that. And the bag of chips as the kids used to say five years ago. And I hope you really enjoy our conversation with Joseph.4 (31m 21s):You still have that fabulous smile.7 (31m 27s):You were so sweet. It's so good to see both. Oh my goodness.4 (31m 31s):What you, what you don't have. What I remember is big hair. Oh, Well, you're a handsome bald bald man. So you can play.7 (31m 42s):Oh, thank you. Go on. Go on.4 (31m 45s):I will. I will. I will. But I'll start by saying congratulations. JoBeth seal. You survived theater school.7 (31m 51s):I did.4 (31m 52s):Yes. And you survived it with us mostly with bod. You guys are graduated in the same year, I think.2 (31m 58s):Yeah.7 (31m 59s):Yeah, we did. Yeah. Do you remember that year? We were in the same section, Johnny.2 (32m 4s):Here's what I remember about you. We went to a Halloween party together with my roommate with a non theater school, like my best friend, Sasha, who Gina knows Sasha and Carsey. And we went to a freaking Halloween party in the suburbs and you had the best costume ever. It was a robot. And you remember any of this? You look,7 (32m 24s):Oh my God. I don't know2 (32m 25s):Brilliance.8 (32m 27s):It7 (32m 27s):Was like, I was a robot. Wow.2 (32m 29s):Like a whole situation. And it was like, we had the best time, but it was like, we didn't know anybody. It was like in the suburbs. It was my friend.4 (32m 37s):Did he make2 (32m 38s):That? Yeah, it was all made. It was so good. Anyway, that's what I remember. That's the main thing that I remember being like, oh my God. His costume. Brilliant. So anyway, I do remember. I mean, I remember, yeah. I mean, remember bits and pieces. I remember that, like I thought you were like super nice. And also, yeah, that we all just were trying to figure it out. Like nobody knew what the hell was going on.7 (33m 7s):Yeah, no, I remember when you joined our section, we were so excited that like someone new was going to like join and we all knew of you, but we didn't know. And I remember that year, you were just like a breath of fresh air. You were just so direct and funny. And you know, I think at that point we were just getting a little tired and you just brought a lot of really beautiful energy into our sections.2 (33m 36s):Oh, the other thing I want to say before I forget is that I, when I was doing research on you, like just to catch up on you and stuff, there's other people with your name that, that some, some before like wild, like one, one guy, like a couple like therapists, couple has Lisa and Joe have your name and, and are like infomercial kind of P anyway, I just thought it was hilarious. And then there's another actor.7 (34m 3s):Yes. There's another actor in what had actually happened one year. It was, I was put in the DePaul, the theater school, alumni newsletter that I was on six feet under and all of this stuff. So people started reaching out to me and it was the other job.4 (34m 20s):That's funny. That's funny. I wonder about those alumni. So it's just, I mean, I guess you've answered the question is somebody scouring the trains or whatever, looking for names that they2 (34m 32s):Used to be John Bridges. And then I think also people submit themselves, which is so, I mean, I get it, but it's also like, I don't have time for that. I mean, like, I mean, not that I'm doing anything that fancy, but like, I, there's something weird about being like, Hey John Bridges, can you put me in the alumni news? I don't know. I'd rather be4 (34m 55s):Except for like your, but that's what it is. Right. That's what you have to do. That's what it's all about the network. I mean, I haven't ever done it either, but2 (35m 6s):I mean, I did it when I had a solo show because I thought, okay, in Chicago, maybe people will come, so I have done it, but I, I just,7 (35m 14s):Yeah, for promo, I think it might be helpful in some instances, but2 (35m 19s):Whatever it is4 (35m 22s):Actually the beginning you're from long island7 (35m 25s):And you have4 (35m 26s):Zero long island accent. Was that very intentional?7 (35m 30s):Well, it's so funny. You mentioned that because I think that was such a big thing my first year. And it really kind of changed the way I speak, because I felt like I was a fast talking like long island kid. And my speech really slowed down that first and second year. Cause I was so conscious of it. So the, after that first year, I think, you know, yoga between yoga and all the voice and speech stuff, like I was like standing up straight and talking like standard American, like, you know, whatever that was that we learned.4 (36m 5s):Like you had to do that in your, not what, even when you weren't on stage.7 (36m 10s):I mean, that was, that was a thing I think back then, I didn't really understand the distinction. I felt like I, I, I had to speak that way on stage and then it just transferred over to my real life. Also, you know, looking back, I was like, oh, you know, I wish I would have been able to make the distinction in my real life that I don't have to speak like this, but it's hard to learn something and practice it. Like I couldn't just practice that in class. It would have just been too difficult, but I started speaking a lot slower just because I was really conscious of the all sounds I was making, like all the sounds and, and I, it was pretty thick. I don't know. I don't know if you all knew me back then, but it was, there were some words I had never heard pronounced.4 (36m 52s):Well, I don't recall you as, I mean, I was surprised to learn that you were from long island and looking at your history because yeah. It seemed, it seemed like you had erased it. So were you the only person from, from New York in your class?7 (37m 10s):No. There were a cup there. Ed Ryan was also from New York. Yeah, but he was from Scarsdale, I think. And then I w I might've been the only one from long island, at least in my class that I remember.4 (37m 23s):And did you have DePaul as your, I mean, is that, was that the school you wanted to go to or your safety?7 (37m 30s):Oh my God. I was all about NYU. I was all about it. And then even before I went to, you know, before I started applying for colleges, my senior year, I went to a summer program at NYU. And at the time there was something called musical theater, works conservatory. And I spent a whole summer doing like conservatory training and, you know, to earn college credit. And it was such a great program at the time too, because we took classes during the day. And then the evening we saw shows and did all this cultural stuff. So after that experience, I was, I just wanted to go to NYU and I just loved it. I loved the city and then I didn't get, I didn't get in.7 (38m 16s):And then I was deciding between DePaul and Emerson and I visited both schools. And when I went to visit DePaul, I know you all had Bradley Walker. And I stayed, he probably doesn't remember this, but I totally stayed with him in the dorms. And the other weird kind of quirky thing I remember was I, I went to his dorm room and he was eating dog food. Like he was eating out of a box2 (38m 44s):And wait,7 (38m 45s):Wait, yeah, hear me out here. So he's like, do you want some? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, peer pressure. So I ate the dog food, like out of the box, it was like dry dog food. And he's like, yeah, it's just, we like how it tastes and it's cheap. And then like, after he told me it was just like cereal and they just like, say like, they put this cereal in the dog food box anyway,4 (39m 9s):Like7 (39m 11s):Quirky things that I remember about that weekend.2 (39m 15s):So here's the thing as a 46 year old tired ass lady. I'm like, who the fuck has time to be switching foods into different modifiers. I can barely get my shoes on 18 year olds who are in college. Like the good quirky marketing. It reminds me of something they might've done. And say that movie with Janine Gruffalo and Ben Stiller, whatever that movie was that they did about gen X, whatever, like reminds me of something like, Hey, let's switch the food into the, but anyway. Okay. So was he nice to you?7 (39m 54s):Oh my God. He really sold me on the school and not, he wasn't trying to sell me on the school. He's like, this is where we do this. And he took me on a tour of the theater school and, you know, I loved that it was in an elementary school and I visited in June, which is like a beautiful time of being in Chicago. And I mean, after that experience, I was just completely sold and I, it was cool. Cause I went by myself like my mom, just let me just go to all these places to visit and like got off the, you know, I took the train, I took the L to the school and everything and, and it was, it was cool. I felt like it was a really good fit. So it worked out nicely.4 (40m 33s):You did a bunch of things though. After theater school, you moved back to New York and got very involved in theater. So tell us about that epoch.7 (40m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think I did a couple of shows in Chicago and I had major FOMO of what was going on in New York and I felt like I was missing out. And I think, you know, I had audition for a lot of stuff in Chicago and I just didn't wasn't landing things. And then, you know, when I moved to New York, I wanted to focus more on directing and writing. And I did an intern. I did a couple of internships, but I did want to ensemble studio theater. And that was super helpful because as part of the internship, you were in an actor director writing lab and yeah, and it was, I think the first time I had been in a place where you can kind of cross over and do different things.7 (41m 27s):And also the, we had a, a lab director who really kind of just taught me, like how to like give feedback to myself and how to give feedback to others. Like the big thing that she would always ask is like, after we would present some kind of work, she would just say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward with the work? Like, what is important to you? And we really, you know, we had a small group and we really experimented within that. And then after the internship, some of us kind of like stuck together. And I mean, at the time too, there were, there were a ton of interns. There was like over 20 and they gave us the keys to the theater.7 (42m 7s):And we had like, there were a couple of theaters there. So we would do our shows like on the top floor of, of, of the theater there on 52nd street and, you know, hang out after and drink beer. And like, I mean, something that probably is not happening today, but it was, it was a really co like a good landing pad for me. So just to meet other people.2 (42m 28s):Okay. So if we take it back a little bit, like when you work, cause I'm curious about that. So like, you didn't have FOMO about LA, right? Like moving to LA when everyone moved to LA or did you like when you graduated from DePaul and I asked, because now you're here obviously in Southern California, but also because it sounds like New York to you based on you, the summer program you did and stuff was sort of the, like in your brain, like the utopia Mecca for actors, but you, so you felt a FOMO, but like showcase wise. Cause I love the good showcase story where you focused on New York, like, cause you did we, did we go to, no, we didn't go to New York, but we7 (43m 7s):Did know.2 (43m 8s):So how, how did you make the choice to go? Not to LA? Like how did that go down?7 (43m 13s):Yeah. I mean, we took a, that film class our last year with Gerard. I don't know if you remember him.2 (43m 20s):Fuck.7 (43m 21s):Yeah. We took a film class. Yeah. We all, we all did. I think that's what his name was and that2 (43m 29s):Class.7 (43m 30s):Yeah. We took a film class where we did a scene on camera and I, the it call experience was like horrific.2 (43m 39s):Oh, I remember it was bad for all of them.7 (43m 43s):I have like a little breakdown after, cause I was like, I don't, I just felt very, you know, self-conscious, I mean, we had spent like years doing theater and I never really looked at myself. And then I was not like a theater snob at all. Like I was willing to do anything. I would do voice or do film, but I just didn't feel comfortable with the camera at all. And I think by the last year or two, I really started to get more interested in like experimental theater and performance art. And I felt there was more of that in New York at the time or maybe I was just unaware of it in Chicago and I wanted to lean in that direction.7 (44m 25s):And that's another reason I kind of went to New York also.2 (44m 28s):Yeah.7 (44m 29s):Yeah. I wasn't seeing that as much. Like I remember there were some companies in Chicago that did some really beautiful pieces, like all the Mary Zimmerman pieces I loved. And I was like, Ugh, that was like, all those were like the Northwestern kids who were in those shows.2 (44m 45s):Oh, I remember what metamorphosis happened. And everyone was like, we all want it to be in metamorphosis. And none of us got in because she of course chose Northwestern kids because that's who she taught and that's where she went. Right. And so whatever.7 (44m 59s):Yeah. And I ended up seeing that in New York anyway, when it was there. So it was like anything like that would eventually go to New York to,4 (45m 6s):And you did a lot, you worked a lot in New York theater, you worked at roundabout and you, and you worked for the Neo futurists, which I love that. I mean, I, that show too much light makes the baby go blind, which is now called infinite infinite wrench, wrenches that it's called.7 (45m 23s):Yeah.4 (45m 24s):I love that show. Tell me everything about being a part of that.7 (45m 28s):Yeah. You know, at that I first saw that show in Chicago when I was like right outside of, no, I saw my first year when I was 17 and then someone from DePaul had like a friend of mine had brought me to it and I, I loved it and then kind of forgot about it. And then I auditioned in Chicago for it when I was 21 and I was just not ready for it. And then when I moved to New York, I was there for maybe two or three years. I discovered that they had had started the show there. And I mean, that really kind of shifted so much for me. I, well, for one thing, it was like, it was so great to meet a group of people who were passionate about the same thing, like the aesthetic, you know, passion about being ensemble.7 (46m 19s):And that show is like so challenging and fun and stressful, but also like super rewarding. And also at the same time, you know, it kind of changed the dynamic I had as an actor and artists with the audience, because it's so rare as an actor that you get to just like be yourself on stage. It's like rarely happens at all. So to on a weekly basis, just stand in front of an audience and like be yourself. And then, and then also think about like what you want to say and how you want to say it. And you know, like through movement or puppetry or through humor or through earnestness or do something concise conceptual or abstract or, you know, and I did some like crazy shit,2 (47m 10s):Like what was your, what was your favorite cause like what I'm noticing and what as you're talking, what I'm remembering about you is that yeah. Like literally you, you, my experience of you and when we knew each other back in the day, was that yet you did not, you, you, you wanted to sort of push the envelope and step outside of the bounds of what we were learning at the theater school. Like you just had an experimental, like heart about you. So I guess my question is like onstage. What do you remember about to my, about the Neo futurist that like really sticks to you? Like performance wise? Like what was so special? Like when did she7 (47m 48s):So many things? I mean, I think, well, the craziest thing I did was take a shit on stage with someone2 (47m 57s):I never heard about this.7 (47m 60s):It was actually a very like poignant play about like writing. It was with my mentor who was, and then you have you trust and we have the same name and we both, the play was actually called untitled number two. And we had this thing in common before we would perform, we would always like have to take a pill. So I just wrote this play about that experience. And to me, like he was, you know, offered me so much advice and so many, you know, really kind of mentored me through being a new, a futurist. And so I wrote this play in homage to him and, you know, as a gift and a sense. So at the end we like produced.7 (48m 41s):We like, we were actually, we put in a bucket and then at some point we, you know, we turned the bucket over and then, which was really hard to do. Cause I have to like, hold my poo in all day. And I was like, it was not sure what was going to come out at a certain, but I also did other2 (48m 54s):So. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess because, okay, so like the old summit stage fright I think is about being a failure for me on stage, like being embarrassed, being shamed, being all the things, right? Like that's what makes me panic on stage. Right? So this is an experience where you literally are like showing your insides, like take excrement, like on stage for the sake of art and for the sake of, but like, was it freeing?7 (49m 26s):Yeah. I mean, there was, I really never forget when I first run that I did my good friend, Erica, who I met during the new futurist and who I'm still really good friends with now. She said to me, she's like, if you fuck up, you have to let it go because you'll ruin the moment that you're in. And the next moment. So there are so many times, I mean, it was, we would learn things like the day before, the day of, and it was inevitable that we were going to fuck up. So all of that perfectionism, you had to kind of leave at the door. And, and that moment I remember sometimes like being on stage and being like, I have a line coming up. I don't even know what that line is.7 (50m 9s):And here you are. And then you just kind of like, say whatever comes out of your mouth and it's just becomes part of the show. So it was really freaky for me, who I felt like at school, I was not a perfectionist, but I did do a lot of homework to make things go. Right. I had to just let, I mean, another moment to, I, we did this like dance number where we had, we had these masks, there weren't masks. They were like plastic plates with smiling faces on them. And we didn't get a chance to rehearse the dance number before we went on. So I was beat backstage and someone was telling me like what the dancing2 (50m 48s):Score.7 (50m 52s):So I had my glasses on, like with this plate pressed against me and I hardly could see. And I was just like, all right, I'm just going to like follow the person in front of me and just see what happens. And then I think that's on YouTube somewhere of me like,4 (51m 7s):Oh, well, they wait. So I'm glad that you started to speak to being a perfectionist in undergrad because it wasn't until you use that word about perfectionism that I, that rung a bell. Oh yeah. You were perfectionists or, or maybe you were just one of these people that, you know, like we've talked to before who took theater school rarely, seriously, and maybe didn't care for people who didn't. I don't know if that's true about you or not, but how have you wrestled with your perfectionism as a performer and as a writer?7 (51m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think what was school? I had like a very different experience. My first two years, compared to the second two years, I was certainly a big nerd my first two years. And I wish I had it cause when I knew this was coming up and I couldn't find it, I think it's at my sister's place someplace, but I have a journal that I kept used to write after every acting class. And I would write like what happened and then I'd give myself some like insights and recommendations for like next time I still have it. It's just, I have to find it. And when I do I'll, I'll, I'll send you. Cause I think I was, it was, I definitely documented everything that happened.7 (52m 25s):Like breakdowns, like being really angry, being really happy, like all that kind of stuff.2 (52m 32s): coffee table book, like, like, like acting notes from a teenager, like, like, or like, I don't know. I think it could be really great, but, and with pictures, cause you're an artist the whole, anyway,7 (52m 49s):I will, I will scan a good journal entry and I'll send it to both of you when I find it. But I think, you know, writing that really helped me, I think thrive the first two years was like the writing aspect of it and reflecting on it. And I think in terms of what I do now, like I need breaks and that's how I handle like dealing with perfectionism. Now I sometimes like I've just kind of started to develop a writing practice the past two years. And I know when it's time to stop. And usually it's when I stop, I know I need to like go for a walk and reflect or just let it go.7 (53m 29s):And then like,2 (53m 30s):'cause, that's what your friend Erica told you. It's like, you have to, we have to just let it go at a certain point in order to not because what happens right. As fear begets, fear, begets perfectionism. So on stage, if something goes awry, since we're all artists, we can relate, like if something goes awry and you stay stuck in the earth, wryness you really miss out on what's coming next. And also you're destined to fuck up. What's coming next. So that letting go for you, it sounds like it's really important in order to move on now, even not on stage. Like, and so you, you say like writing and walking helps you let go and you've realized that like to move on.2 (54m 10s):Yeah.7 (54m 11s):Yeah. And I it's so funny. We were talking about letting go. Cause when I auditioned for the Neos, we had to write a play about our biggest challenge. And to me it was letting go and I wrote this play, well, we didn't say any words, but we, there was a paper shredder on stage. And then I wrote out like a word or two on a piece of paper and then like put it through the shredder. And then we gave like, we held out pens or markers to the audience and then like the audience could come up and write something and then shred it. And it was like very powerful. Cause like some people would write like, you know, my, you know, my ex-boyfriend or like envy or, you know, last seasons, like fashion collection or whatever it is, you know, that they wanted to let go of.7 (54m 59s):But I think to me that is something that's still, you know, resonates of like how, how do I let go? You know, like through meditation, through like the walking for me is a meditation and that's, that's usually like, it's a big part of my process just to take the time, you know, to take the time between creation, I guess.4 (55m 20s):What have you learned that you've had to let go in terms of how you saw yourself as an artist when you started school, versus when you came out, like in the time that you've been able to reflect? What, what I mean? Cause we, we had lots of ideas about our spas and I had lots of ideas about ourselves and who we were as artists and whoever people. And most of those were all completely, they were wrong. So, so this podcast has been a process of letting go of some of those antidotes. What's it been like for you?7 (55m 53s):Yeah, I mean a big thing for me at school I remember was I know I've listened to a ton of episodes and I feel like I was really at war with myself. You know, I, the criticism from the teachers wasn't as big of a deal as the, as the criticism that I gave myself. Like I, I never, there was no self validation at all. Like even when I did something, well, I never told myself I, there was always something wrong. And I think that has been a big part of my adulthood is just learning to give myself a gold star and to self validate and then also to learn, to understand permission, to get feedback.7 (56m 44s):And you know, I think that was something that was always a little challenging at theater school too, was, you know, I like, you know, the, the lab director that I mentioned earlier at EST, who would say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward? So often at school we weren't in control of the feedback that we got. So I think sometimes it was really challenging for me when I was like, I'm not ready for all of this or I don't need to know that. Why are you telling me that now? Or, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't control any of that. And maybe I needed to let go of that. And I did have a little bit of a habit and, and a little reputation for walking out of class.7 (57m 32s):Yeah. And it was, it was something I had to address and something, a lot of teachers talk to me about. And I mean, often it was because I was bored or just like needed a break, or I was like, I didn't want to like watch someone or whatever it was. And2 (57m 46s):I think it's really bold. Like what the fuck, man? I wish the one time I did that, I, I like got in big trouble for it. And like, but like whatever the reason is you were on some level trying to take care of yourself. Right. And so good for you. Like, fuck that. I don't know. I like it. I probably would be like, oh, oh, that's awesome. And secretly I'm like, oh, the audacity, the amazing audacity of Joe to walk out and inside. I'm probably like, I wish I could do that. But anyway, so7 (58m 20s):Yeah, I mean, to me it was, it was self care in a way. And that was before we knew anything about that. And you know, when I think of like what I was going through at the time too, was it was such an emotional time for me, like for so many reasons. And, you know, like, you know, being away from home and coming out of the closet and like, you know, like all the money struggles I had and like, I, you know, it just kind of gave me, I was just learning how to take care of myself. And then on top of all those things, like studying drama, like, okay, this is the perfect time to study drama now, you know, and even like doing all the things that we did, like, especially the movement stuff always had kind of profound effect on me.7 (59m 8s):Cause we were like retraining how to the nervous system, that sense of like freeing our natural voice and doing all these things. So I was really emotional, like the first two years a lot. And I would just leave to kind of like collect my thoughts and not like have a major breakdown in class or dumb about something that yeah.4 (59m 25s):To modulate. Right. Because that's what you, what you definitely have no control over is modulating the flow of feedback because it's not just feedback from your teachers. We're getting feedback from our peers. And sometimes you'd get feedback from peers that you didn't really respect them. So you were like, I'm not sure what to, I'm not sure what to make of this.2 (59m 42s):What's becoming clear. Is that based on what you experienced after that with the lab is that we needed a feedback class. Like we needed a literal class of how to give and receive feedback at the theater school would have been fucking phenomenal.7 (59m 58s):Oh my God. I know it wasn't until years later when I was a Neo that we learn, the, the show was on, I think east fourth street and right next to his New York theater workshop. And they do the Liz Lurman feedback method, which I love. And I'm like, oh my God, that was really a beginning point for me because then it just to follow that structure is brilliant. Like, just start with what you were struck by. I don't need your opinion right away on what to change. Look, just tell me what you were struck by what moments did you enjoy? What, you know, what questions do you have and then, or asking questions yourself. And I mean, maybe the school does that now, but I think that was really, that was really big for me.7 (1h 0m 39s):I, for any artist, whether you're a dancer or2 (1h 0m 41s):No matter whether you're a child getting feedback from your parent or a spouse, getting feedback from your other spouse or whatever, it, it, it works in all levels. And I think that what it does though, is disrupts the hierarchy of the power in an institution. And so nobody likes that. I mean, really like teachers need to feel like they're in control, right. Instead of what struck me, let's stay curious, let's stay open. That's not how conservatories are made. Like that's not the whole goal of them. And then maybe I hope they're changing, but like, yeah. Oh, I just love that you haven't had that experience after school with both the, the, the work in New York and the, the ensemble work you did and the Neo futurists sort of sh it sounds like it's really shaped your work moving forward as an artist, right?7 (1h 1m 34s):Yeah. I mean, it was really, I have to say, I mean, after that moment of being a Neo futurists, I was like, I don't think I can play a character ever again. I don't really know it can happen cause I, it just didn't, I, it really changed the dynamic I had with an audience. And I, I guess I didn't want to go back to what it was before also being a Neo. I had to let go of really all the things I had learned at school, in a sense, I mean, all I could really use was like maybe some of the voice and speech work we had done, but I, I mean, yeah, it really kind of shifted things for me, but being in that ensemble was great.7 (1h 2m 14s):Cause I, I, you know, we really learned how you really need to learn how to give and take and to, and, but also be an advocate for your own work because every week, you know, you had to kind of bring in something and you had to pitch it. You had to sell it to the five or six people who were deciding what was in the show that week. So it was, I think it's an experience that I, they do workshops, but like, I think everyone should do a workshop in that way because the show itself is living newspaper. So you have to think of like, what is relevant right now? What's relevant to this audience what's relevant in this moment, you know? And how can I bring that on stage?4 (1h 2m 55s):So wait, so you had an interest young in musical theater, but did you follow that? Have you remained interested in musical theater?7 (1h 3m 6s):No. You know what? I know you all have talked about the brochure and so I completely read the brochure wrong when I chose DePaul. Well, a couple of things I had for musical theater, I wanted to get a BFA musical theater. And there aren't a lot of schools that offer that. So I, you know, when I didn't get into some NYU, I was like, okay, well, what other school? So I had to be flexible with that. But the brochure I remember for DePaul the last year we took ensemble class. And I actually thought that that meant that we were in a theater company.7 (1h 3m 48s):So I not only thought that the, like, after you graduated, you're part of an ensemble theater company. So I told everyone, I'm like, I'm going to DePaul. And then I'm in a theater company. And then I thought that like, that was one crazy thing. And then also the movement stuff, which was, I actually really loved, like all the movements that we did. Like, I'm a big, like I'm, I was a big fan of moving to music. Like that was my jam at school. So I thought I was going to be getting some dancing training there, but I kind of, I did let it go. Certainly like, as the years of the2 (1h 4m 26s):Rest of the school, were you in any7 (1h 4m 29s):I wasn't and I really wanted to be, I, we did like Peter pan one year. And Were you in that?2 (1h 4m 38s):No, but Eric was saying was Susan Lee and she talks about it on the podcast.7 (1h 4m 45s):I heard that one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. But yeah, no, I didn't do any musical theater stuff. I did love all the, we learned like period dance, which I was a big fan of, like, that was2 (1h 4m 57s):Me too. There was a fucking structure and it was like slow. And like, there was a way to do it. I remember the Elizabethan situation maybe, or like there was like this dance with Romeo and Juliet situation. And I loved that. I felt like there were actual steps we could take, there was a pacing to it.4 (1h 5m 21s):And you knew if you got it or not. Right. Like it was, it wasn't nebulous. Like you either understood how to do it or you didn't.7 (1h 5m 27s):Yeah. I thought I was like, I love the ritual of it. And it was, it was great to learn about history in that way too. And I liked all the Labon stuff that we did with Betsy, I thought,2 (1h 5m 38s):Is that the buoyancy and the, this and the, that.7 (1h 5m 42s):Yeah. I loved all of that stuff.2 (1h 5m 44s):Yeah.7 (1h 5m 45s):I mean, it was, you know, it was physically challenging too. We, I remember that thing we did with it was called like chaos, where you had to like go crazy. And4 (1h 5m 55s):I don't remember that.7 (1h 5m 57s):Yeah.2 (1h 5m 57s):It was crazy. And I remember I got such a stiff neck. I had to go to the emergency Because we were going crazy. And the next day I was like, I think I broke my neck, but I didn't break my head. So I had to go to that. And they were like, what did you do where he's like at a headbanging concert? I was like, no, it's a theater school now.4 (1h 6m 23s):Oh, we got another one. We got another theater,2 (1h 6m 27s):Chaos lady. I was like, I can't move. Yeah.4 (1h 6m 31s):Okay. But wait, so tell us about Susan Laurie parks, 365 plays and 365 days.7 (1h 6m 39s):Yeah. So that was, we, the Neos were given a handful of S of days for our scripts from that. And then as an ensemble, we were tasked with like interpreting it in any way that we wanted to. So it was cool to like, do a show at the public. And I remember we did one piece called FedEx to my ex where we had, like, we used actual FedEx boxes, like maybe like 50 or 60 of them. And we, we had letters on them or words and like kind of configured them to, to give messages out to the audience on these boxes.7 (1h 7m 24s):So I love that experience just cause we, as an ensemble, get to LA to celebrate this playwright with other like theater companies from, I think it was from, from all over the place. And it felt, again, like another professional experience, something that we didn't really get a chance to do, because the show that we did on a weekly basis was like on knew sports street at like 11 o'clock at night, you know? And this was more of a, like, you know, a different audience for us, which wasn't,2 (1h 7m 53s):When did you stop working with, is it like once a Neil always said, Neil, can you stop pack in and do stuff? Or like, how does it work?7 (1h 8m 1s):You can. Yeah. So the, I was like a regularly scheduled Neo for about two years or so. And then I jumped in to do the show at other times. And like we did a pride show that I would do often, or I would come in and do a run. And then we also had primetime shows. So I was involved in like two or three prime time shows as either a performer or assistant director or a collaborator in some way. And I did that up until I did some marketing for the company. I did that up until I moved to LA. And even my first year in LA, I did a project at here art center with my, one of my theater heroes chucked me that I went back to to, to see.7 (1h 8m 50s):So, but yeah, when I moved here, I kind of just decided to let, let that go.2 (1h 8m 60s):They're always themes that emerged with people's lives when they come on the show. So for you then stop and starting, like ed Ryan's is being interrupted and yours is like letting things go. So when did you arrive in LA?7 (1h 9m 13s):I moved here. It's been five years. So 2017 or so. And you know, I finally feel like now I'm kind of getting settled. I mean, I'd go back to New York a lot just to hang out and spend time there. And I work remotely. So I'm able to like go there and like work for a couple of weeks. I've learned not to stay too, too long. Cause last summer I was there for six weeks and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm in my old life.4 (1h 9m 42s):How do you satisfy? If you still have a craving for performance, how do you set it? Because now you have your own company you're self-employed, which is awesome. How do yo
Intro: Boz did MDMALet Me Run This By You: Will Smith and Chris RockInterview: We talk to Katharine Scarborough about The New School, Ron Leibman, Robert LuPone, Casey Biggs, the Actor's Studio, Neil Labute's Fat Pig, Harvard's A.R.T., Shakespeare & Company, Moscow Art Theatre, Biomechanics, Michael Chekhov technique, Michael Chekhov Theatre Festival, Ragnar Freidank, Mabou Mines, Dixon Place, The Brick Theater, JoAnne Akalaitis, Big Girl web series, Jean Taylor, clowning, clown burlesque, improv culture, Bridesmaids, Melissa McCarthy, actor branding, cultivating a good relationship with agents, One on One NYC.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.2 (15s):And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I think the main thing I just want to say is like, I took drugs, but we call it the medicine. Right. Everyone's like in the ma so I did, and I won't, it's still illegal because it's still in third clinical trials, but I took MTMA with a trained MTMA guide. Who's also a therapist whose name I shall not say so that she doesn't go to jail for some weird reasons. And I'm going to tell you, and you probably already know this from your, from, I know you have some like knowledge about psychiatry or about psychedelics in terms of medical use and stuff like that.1 (1m 12s):Not that you've done them, but you know what I mean? I know you, whatever the point is, I think it's going to change psychiatry. Like it's going to change2 (1m 21s):A hundred percent.1 (1m 22s):I had. Okay. First of all, I was scared shitless. So MTMA is the pure forum for people that don't know of, of ecstasy or Molly, but it's, it's, you know, pharmaceutical grade and it's whatever, it's very, you know, whatever, it's a, it's a legit medicine, but I was scared. I was like, I'm going to die. I'm going to take this. This is where for someone that has anxiety more than I have depression, I think now anyway, in my life, the fear was I'm I'm doing something illegal. This is wrong. And I'm going to suffer for it also, like that was the moralistic fear. And then the actual fear of what the fuck is going to happen.1 (2m 3s):So for people, you know, just so people know, like you're in this person, rented a house and Airbnb and had a beautiful, I was, it was just me and her and a beautiful, like, amazing bed. That was that she brings in. That's like a foam, a memory foam. It's not as shitty thing. It's like really great. And I even thought that before I was on drugs, right? Like I was like, this is a really good setup. The house was a neutral house. Meaning she picked a great thing, which was there. Wasn't the, the family of the people's art on the walls. It was like pictures of surfing and stuff and like water.1 (2m 44s):But like not a lot of people, there were no mirrors. Like I was like, is this made for this? And she's like, no, I just found this. There was no, no, the house was clean. So it felt really good. Right. But not sterile. So that was great. And she had flowers and stuff and there was like a table set up. So then you go in, you bring objects and, and pictures, if you want. And there's two kinds of MDM assisted therapy, right. There's talk therapy you could do with two therapists. I did not. This, this practitioner does not do that kind. She's a firm believer in like letting the client lead their own experience.1 (3m 26s):And at first I was like, oh, I hate that. I want you to take care of me. Like I was like, I want all the therapists in the room. Right. It was like a real, and then I said, you know, no, I'm gonna, I'm an adult. Like I can it's. Okay. And also when you have two therapists in the room, they, they, they use the music less. So what I will say is the music was, I would say 90% of what was amazing about this. I don't even like music really. Like, I'm not a music person, but you, you literally have your headphones noise, canceling headphones with th with curated music from MTMA musicians.1 (4m 7s):So people that have scientists have worked with psychiatrists and doctors to develop music specifically for psychedelic MTMA journeys it's and it's timed with the medicines. So, because they know, because they've done studies, they know the trajectory of the journey in terms of what you're going to be, what kind of thing is going to be maybe happening. So they time this music. So you put on these headphones and there's like blankets. And I brought my own blanket. And it's you do like beforehand, you say a prayer and like, not a prayer, but like, yeah, like, like a, like a meditation tension.1 (4m 47s):We said, I, and believe me, this was not something I took lightly in terms of, I for weeks have been committed to doing it. So then there's a workbook beforehand there's sessions with the therapist beforehand. So it is not a party. This is not, I cannot say this enough. It is a journey and not a party. So meaning that it's a whole thing. It's like a process it's it's therapy. It's it's medical treatment is what it is. Okay. So you have this headphones on and also the music is playing in the room as well, the same music. So that even if you take your headphones off, you hear it and okay. And you have total blackout shades on, on your eyes.1 (5m 31s):So a mask that is comfortable and soft, but really dark. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Like, this is, this is it. This is how I die. And then I was like, you know what? You have so much, like you you've done so much research. You've watched the videos, you know, this is not gonna, they're gonna kill you, but you're scared. Okay. But I just took the pill. I was like, okay, here we go. So I took the pill and then you lay down and you're like, okay, it's not working. Like none of it. And by the way, I've never taken equity in my life. I've taken throughs and I'm taking acid and obviously marijuana I've smoked and stuff and edibles, but never that. So I was like, nah, it's not working.1 (6m 12s):And then the music, okay, well, all I can say is it becomes a party for your body and the notes I will share with you in an email that she took. I said some of the funniest things that I've ever said, and also you're like still aware that you're you. So it's not the feeling because for someone like me who has trauma and panic, the big fears that you'll disappear, I will disappear. I won't have an identity and no one will take care of me. And I will, I will totally decompensate to the point of death. Like that is really the thing, this drug, this medicine, you know, you're still you like, if, if, if a police officer, God forbid came up and said, what's your name?1 (6m 57s):And you could answer all those questions. It's just, it literally turns off the part of your brain that is super judgy. So I knew what was happening sort of, but then the music, I was like, okay, this is not working. And all of a sudden, Gina, the music becomes the most beautiful music you've ever heard in your life. Like, you can't believe that humans made the music. Like I was like, this is, and I, I kept saying, this is like watching a movie with your body. So you're. Yeah. So you're like, and then, okay, so you feel, I felt great. And like, you're underwater, you can breathe under water and there's some visuals, but you're seeing nothing.1 (7m 40s):I mean, there's no, there's black, but you're seeing it. So you are kind of hallucinating. But the thing, and the thing that happens is with MTMA is that the whole principle is that inside of us, that these MTMA psychiatrists and therapists believe that there is an inner healer drive to live person who knows better inside of all of us before the trauma happens. Right. It's moved that we access that part of ourselves during the MTMA journey and you, and that's why they say trust the medicine. And I'm like, that is, fuck you. Trust them like beforehand. I was like, but you, and don't get ahead of the medicine, all these things they say.1 (8m 21s):And you're like, what? But you, you know what it means once you do it, you're like you is the most. So you're feeling good. I felt like you just feel relaxed and, but it gets you in that state. So then you can look at your trauma, so,3 (8m 38s):Oh, okay. Like making everything, just so PR conditions being perfect. Yeah.1 (8m 44s):And then you're like, oh, this is a hard song. So it feels like, oh, this is a hard song. And that's how I started to feel. This is going to be a song. And it, and I can only tell you that, like I worked through some it's, it is, it's like 12 therapy sessions in six hours in a, in a, in a, in a wonderful way in that I looked at some stuff, some crazy stuff, but it is not, we're not when we're on MTMA we're not attached to the trauma. So it's like watching a movie, but also you're feeling it.1 (9m 27s):Like I could feel fear and panic come up. So it wasn't like I had a good time all the time, but I wasn't, you can go towards it without feeling like you're going to be annihilated. I didn't think I was ever going to be annihilated by my trauma in the, in the medicine. I felt like I had the resources and I knew there, and I was curious about what the songs and the music and the drug was going to show me rather than petrified. And I have to get the fuck out of here. And like, I don't care what I do.3 (10m 6s):Did you ha did you remember things that you hadn't remembered before?1 (10m 10s):No. It was like, well, no, no. It was like different. It does it in a way that is like, not you. So the things I worked through, I can say it was like a song and the music is timed. When you're at the peak of the medicine for this, it was like some crazy, like intense, you know, soundtrack to a scary, not a scary movie, like, like, like a war movie. Right. And you're like, oh God. And at least that was my experience. But then what happened was I had a nine 11 situation where I was in the burning building is so crazy. This is nine 11. And I'm in a burning building on the 94, but I'm not panicked. I'm like, okay, this is what's happening.1 (10m 52s):And I go to a man and a woman who are dressed in business clothes, and they're sort of tattered. And we've all been through this horrible crash. And I say, you guys, we have to jump now. And they're like, fuck, you know, way to a man and a woman blonde lady. And I say, listen, I know you're really scared work on a jump together. We're together. And this is the last conscious choice we get to make as a group to do, to take, to take our lives in our own hands. I'm going to ask you now to take my hands and we're going to jump and they're like petrified and I'm like, we can do it. And then, and I'm here watching Jen, the observers, like what is going to happen, but not like I got to get the fuck outta here and clawing at my skin.1 (11m 38s):No, no, no more like we, I knew that we had to do this. And so I took their hand and we jumped and then we started flying. We flew away. So I like helped them to, and it's really me helping me. Right. So like, I get that now. But like, and so I wasn't like petrified. So that was a huge moment. But the other moment was none of the people I didn't want to come in, came in. So like your inner healer knows, like I didn't want to see my parents and I didn't want to see my sister. And I didn't. I saw my dad in the, like a field and he was young and happy. Great. We like, that was great.1 (12m 18s):But in the song, there was a, like a Tibetan song nothing's in English, which is great. So like, if there are words and lyrics, it's not an English, which is great. Unless you speak those languages, then you might know what they're saying, but I did not. And so there was a Tibetan, like guys scream, like screaming, singing, like chanting. And in my head, I was like, oh, this is the reckoning song. This is where he makes other people atone for their sins against me. He's yelling at them, all the bad things they did to me. So I don't have to do it like stuff like that comes forward where you're like, holy fuck. So, and then the other thing was the name.1 (13m 1s):And I will say this, and I will not say the name, but the name of someone I think like sexually abused me as a child came forward. And it just said, the name of your perpetrator is, and then there was the name and it wasn't scary. And it was at the end of my journey. And it was sort of like, this is just the name and it's the name I knew. And it's a name that I had questions about. And I was like, oh, okay. And it was like, not a dun dun dong. It was like, this is3 (13m 33s):Okay. Okay. Oh my God. I make so many feelings.1 (13m 37s):Oh God. Yeah. So, so that is my, so my takeaways are still, I have many sessions afterwards. I'm gonna meet with her tonight on zoom. And we it's an ongoing process. I don't know if I'd ever do it again. They say like, you just do a maximum of three, three sessions for any person, unless you have like severe, severe trauma. And then sometimes they mix it with mushrooms and ketamine and they do all kinds of things for like combat veterans and stuff like that. Or just people that are really stuck for years that are on like 40 meds. And like can't. So I will say that it's changing psycho, like it, because you are self fricking guided.1 (14m 21s):It is, I didn't make the experience about anyone, but myself and I was able to take ownership over. Like it was parts were scary. Parts were lovely. Parts were fun, but it was my experience. So like, you don't lie.3 (14m 40s):You're the protagonist in a story.1 (14m 42s):And I didn't make the therapist, the leader, or I sh she was there as a witness. So what I'm saying about MTMA therapy is if you are committed to it is one it's just like fucking having a dog or getting married or anything else. If you don't really have to, or need to do it, I would say, don't do it. But if you are someone who is in therapy, working on your shit and you feel stuck, or you feel like there is a trauma that you just refuse to touch in there, talk therapy or whatever MTMA is, is the thing. But, but I really recommend, like I took a shit ton of supplements before a shit ton of supplements after HTP, all things you can get at whole foods because your body does need to.1 (15m 29s):And I got a massage, you got to do it the right way. Like this is, I tell people it's not a party, but it's also, it's like a journey. And it's also a huge self care thing. It's like, it's all the all, and they say, the minute you commit to the medicine like that, you're going to go on a journey. The medicine starts working. So like stuff will come up before then you're on. So all this to say, what are your thoughts when you hear this?3 (15m 55s):Well, I mean, I'm, That's what I would be scared of this Learning something new about my past.1 (16m 12s):Right, right. I know. I know. It's3 (16m 17s):Afterwards. How do you feel about that?1 (16m 20s):I, I feel like she not first want to say, like, I totally get that. I was petrified and I, The worst in our life has already happened to us because we were children and we could not do anything about it. That is the worst part of the whole thing is that we were little and had no resources. That is the crime that was committed against us. Not that it, it was that we were resource lists. The thing about MTMA and how I feel. I never felt resource lists.1 (17m 0s):I knew3 (17m 2s):If I'm prepared1 (17m 3s):And in the journey, even while I was like, oh, this is going to be hard, but I never felt like D I was in danger and I never felt like a child. So trauma robs you of your adult hood. Right. So it tells you you're still five and you're still in the situation and nobody's going to help you. You don't feel like that on MTMA. I don't know about, I feel like on other drugs you might, but MTMA is like really renowned for people feeling in somewhat in control. Like I could have, I wouldn't want to drive a car, but if like I needed to, I could have been like, oh, Hey, let's get out of the house now, but I hear you.1 (17m 43s):But it is so evident in my journey that like,3 (17m 51s):We w it really helps to grow you up. Let me run this fine. Everybody has trauma that they need to look at. And that leads us into what we definitely have to run by each other, which is th this thing that happened at the Oscars and talk about trauma. And, you know, all I could see in that moment was two little boys. I saw Gina.3 (18m 30s):Exactly. I thought, oh, they're so hurt. So deeply hurt. I have no tools right now to it, especially for will Smith. It's like, he, he short-circuited somehow. And was his trauma was unable to stay under wraps and it came out in, on a public stage. And that's all I could see too, because that's my framework. That's my, that's my paradigm. Yeah. And, and, you know, of course in the information age that we're in and the, in the social media age, the, the, the, the second something like that happens, all anybody can think about is like, what are the hot takes going to be on Twitter?3 (19m 16s):Right. Okay. Well, there's a variety of takes, but they all seem to be mostly focused on who was wrong or what was wrong, you know, which to me is like, not the point, you know, like it's, who's hurt, who is hurting and what are they going to do about their hurt? You know, I said, yeah. I said, these people, all of them involved need help and support. Absolutely. They need help need shunning. They don't need, you know, I mean, and, and I don't really hear too many people talking about Chris rock, but I mean, I hope his people are checking on him because he gave his help to television.3 (20m 1s):And I just, I know that that has happened to him before. Right. I just felt like this is such a redo of his child that I don't know that it must be. And he said, you know, he's talked about everybody hates Chris. That was a joke. And he talks about getting him, getting in trouble with his mouth before, but I don't know, man. It was just so raw. And I kinda think they just, I guess they had to air it, but, and it's sort of live or whatever, but I don't know. I just, I wish there had been, I wish the grownups had come in. Well, what we need all I was telling my therapist yesterday, we need referees to say, wait, time out time, like psychological referees that are like, this is actually going into a territory.3 (20m 43s):That's not okay. So like, let's stop and regroup, but nobody, you know, it's1 (20m 47s):Capitalism and money. And nobody cares about psychology.3 (20m 49s):It's like, oh, good ratings. You know, this is getting before,1 (20m 52s):Like, fuck them. They're rich. So who cares about them? Or fuck that.3 (20m 55s):I hate that. I, that argument just really is just so tired. Like, oh, if you have money, then you're not allowed to have any other problem for life.1 (21m 4s):Well, the other thing I think is like, if we, if we live in a capitalist world, which we do, and basically the rich people run things, I want my rich people to be healthy.3 (21m 13s):Amen to that. Yes.1 (21m 16s):Yeah.3 (21m 18s):And talk about tools and resources. I mean, they, they that's, that's the one thing I will say, if you have those resources, you have a responsibility to make use of them in a way that contributes not detracts from the world and yourself and the people that you love and who love you, you know? Yeah. So it was sad. And, but at the same time, I was happy. There was theater back in the Oscars. I was happy about all of the firsts that happened. I was, I, it, it looked to me to be the most inclusive orange show I've ever seen in terms of what they talked about and hoop in the symbolism.3 (21m 58s):And I really, I really get into the symbolism, you know, when people wear certain things and do certain things, and this rep, you know, I'm sure if we could talk to the set designer, we would, we would learn a lot about what the symbolism was of the set. And so I thought that was interesting. I was wondering where they were sitting around these tables because it's not like the golden gloves are not eating meals. And then when, when these dancers got on, I thought, oh, this is for this. And, and it just felt like theater. And I just thought, yeah, okay, good. We need this. Anyway. We need, we need to get back to like, something more pure about why we all went into this because Yes. And visceral, because the other thing that occurred to me is like, wow, I never heard about this before, but it must be so tense to be at the Oscars,1 (22m 46s):Like horrible.3 (22m 48s):You're either tense about what you're wearing tense about whether or not you're going to win tense about what speech you're going to make tense about what I noticed people. I feel like I could read people's body language when they were dissatisfied with where their seat was. You know, I just felt like everybody was, everybody comes to that night with who are you going to tell me? I am. Oh,1 (23m 10s):Right. That's right. And am3 (23m 11s):I, is that going to be acceptable to me? And it's a very narrow definition of what's.1 (23m 17s):Yes. Well, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's teeny, it's impossible. It's impossible. So I think you got to go, like, I now know why, like Frances McDormand goes and she's like completely stoned or like, or like just crazy people do because it's too much pressure. That's the other thing I'm real I saw was with the, with the will Smith thing, was that the amount of, like you said, tenseness, you know, the amount of pressure they, everyone looks like ready to pop. They're so anxious and stressed out and understandably it's. So I, I know now why people don't go to those things. Like I always thought it would be so fun, but now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, that seems like a lot of work and also real tense,3 (24m 3s):Real, real tense, but that doesn't take away from the beautiful, you know, I heard some beautiful speeches and overall I think overall I hope everything that happened at the Oscars is indicative of like things moving in a better and better direction, but we're also very far away from a lot of things, a whole lot of things.1 (24m 26s):And, and then there's this, you know, and we don't really have time to talk about it this time. We're going to talk about next time maybe, but like this whole thing of like, okay, so a lot of, you know, like who gets to have a take on what went down? So like, people are, are saying, you know, I've seen members of the black community saying, you know, like no white people should talk about this. And, and frankly, I didn't feel the need to talk about it as a half white, half Latino or as a human. I also, my, I thought, I thought, oh, my framework is I come from a place of like, we're all traumatized. So like, that's what I, and I'm trained in that. And that's what I can chime in about if somebody asks my goddamn opinion, like you and I ask each other's opinion, but nobody's asking my goddamn opinion.1 (25m 13s):So I don't keep my mouth shut. If you want to ask me what I think, then we talk about it on our podcast. You know what I mean? But like, I don't need a platform Twitter to talk about will Smith and Chris rock, they, plenty of people are doing that3 (25m 25s):Where people1 (25m 26s):Covered3 (25m 27s):It's covered. It's well-covered yeah. Oh, I just have a very quick update about my fascination with those tick talks with the, the women and1 (25m 36s):They're getting ready and the coming home,3 (25m 38s):I found out they're all infomercials1 (25m 44s):For the products in there for all the products.3 (25m 47s):Yeah.1 (25m 48s):So it's actually nothing about there. They don't really do that.3 (25m 52s):I mean, who knows,1 (25m 54s):How did you find that out?3 (25m 57s):'cause my kids stole they're like, I mean, and they were, they weren't saying mom, you know, that's just infomercial. They were like, yeah, you can get all those products. If you just click on the thing you can see. And I was like, oh, so the whole thing is a commercial. And they were like, yeah, what did you think it was?1 (26m 12s):You're that it was a day in the life of a lovely lady with very many gadgets and outfit.3 (26m 19s):And it was just one of those moments like, oh, I, so1 (26m 24s):I have those all the time. I have those all where I'm like, oh, I'm truly an eater.3 (26m 29s):I'm truly so dumb. I deserve, I deserve to waste my money on these products and they don't want to get my money completely work. I did in the end, only buy one thing. Oh, you1 (26m 42s):Actually did buy what you3 (26m 43s):Buy. I bought it a egg cooker. You can, you can hardball eggs in the microwave.1 (26m 50s):Well, that's pretty good. Okay.3 (27m 9s):Today on the contest we were talking to Catherine Scarborough. Catherine is an award-winning New York city-based actress and writer. She got her MFA in acting from the new school for drama. And she's also trained with the Moscow art theater and the people's improv theater. She has a lot of interesting stories and she has a fantastic web series called , which you can find on her website, Catherine scarborough.com. So please enjoy our conversation with Catherine Scarborough.6 (27m 51s):Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Okay.3 (27m 53s):So congratulations, Catherine, Catherine Scarborough, you survived theater school and your first new-school alone. So I I'm really intrigued by the way, by your intro here, he says, can be interesting conversation. Does that mean you had a mixed bag of a time?7 (28m 10s):Well, first of all, thank you. I, yes, it was definitely a mixed bag. It's an interesting program. Yeah. I mean, I, the training, my professors were really great. I had a lot, I really am happy with my artistic training. It was the business side of things1 (28m 32s):That7 (28m 33s):I, we went out into the world completely unprepared.1 (28m 36s):Okay. When did you graduate? You look so young.7 (28m 39s):20 13, 20 131 (28m 44s):Is recent. So we graduated and fricking long, long time ago. So, so like, like, yeah, nineties. So, so at 2013, the new school didn't really prepare you business wise. And I mean,3 (28m 59s):When did these people get,1 (29m 0s):When are we going to get prepared,7 (29m 4s):Please schools do it, to be honest with you. I think that if it's a name, if it's a school that you can walk into an audition room and they're like, oh, you're a Yalie. You're NYU. It's a different story. But like, to give you an idea, and I got my MFA, it was not a BFA program. It was an MFA program when we were getting ready or we had done our showcase maybe. And then we were doing, you know, reaching out to agents and managers, this spreadsheet that we were given, some of the people on it were dead1 (29m 44s):Or in jail or in jail7 (29m 46s):Dead. I mean, one of my classmates came back, oh1 (29m 48s):My God, these people,7 (29m 52s):They were like, I'm sorry, this person has passed away.1 (29m 60s):That's3 (29m 60s):Crazy.1 (30m 1s):I really, I really applaud that. Person's tenacity. They were like trying to get repped by a ghost. They will do like, I'll take anyone, give me the ghost, even3 (30m 10s):The ghost ghosted me. Okay. So, so you weren't prepared, but what about the straight training side of it? Like7 (30m 20s):You,3 (30m 21s):Presumably you went there saying I'm going to be a famous actress. Give me all I need to know. Did they fit the bill in that way?7 (30m 30s):Yes and no. I mean, it was, you know, again, once again a mixed bag, I had some fantastic professors. I, I was lucky enough to study with Ron Leibman1 (30m 42s):Who he, more,7 (30m 44s):Ron originated the role of Roy Cohn in angels in America. He was Rachel Green's dad on friends. He and studying with him was really a gift. I mean, and he, you know, I mean, he had done what you want to do as an actor in his career. He had Tony, can I curse? I really, You know, he had a fucking Tony. So there was no, I think sometimes with acting teachers, there is an ego part of it where they, I don't know, they want to mold you or they're frustrated and they haven't done what they want, but he had done everything that he wanted to do.7 (31m 27s):And so really he was just in it because he cared about young actors and he was tough, but he wanted you to be the best artists you could possibly be. And so that was such a gift that there were lots of professors that I really had a wonderful experience with there. Casey Biggs was my classical technique. Like Shakespeare professor. He's wonderful. He was, he's a star Trek actor. If you don't know, the Saifai world gets a lots of Shakespearian actors because they have to3 (31m 58s):Make7 (31m 58s):Sense. You know, they have to take this ridiculous material and make1 (32m 3s):And make it accessible.7 (32m 6s):Right.1 (32m 7s):So for people that don't know, obviously the new schools in New York, did you audition? How was that?7 (32m 14s):Yes, I auditioned. So it, yes, it's in New York city. It used to be where the actors studio was. And then there was this gray Bradley Cooper went to my grad school at the time that the actor's studio was still attached. And then there was this big schism actor studio went to pace. And then the new school had its own drama program run by Patty lipomas brother bobble poem. So he was the Dean1 (32m 44s):Of the school at your school?7 (32m 46s):At my school. Yeah. Bobby Lou. And so, yeah. So the audition process was I actually, they asked you to prepare a scene. So you had to find a scene partner and do a scene rather than just a monologue, which was cool. So I had a friend of mine come with him. This is funny. And a friend of mine come and do a scene with me. I did a scene from a play that I hate, but that I felt like would make me appear marketable. I did a scene.1 (33m 17s):Yeah.7 (33m 17s):I did a scene from fat pig, which,1 (33m 19s):Oh, no,7 (33m 21s):But Hey, I got into school with it. So1 (33m 23s):Yeah. You know what I always say about that play? Like I actually know Neil LaBute and that guy's a Dick. So, I mean, I've met him. I wouldn't say know him. He directed did he direct, he directed Wicker man, that my boss Nick cage, was it the second time UN he's got problems. He's a, he's like a Mormon, he's got problems with his own body size. I think as a, as a plus sized dude, he's real weird. He's real weird. But anyway, I always say about fat pig. It's like, I am always rooting obviously for the actress that takes on that role.1 (34m 6s):Especially as a plus sized lady, I'm like, yeah, you go. And, and we think, God, I hope we're writing better plays in that, but you know what? It's not the actresses deal that is doing it so good for you. So you did a scene from that pig with your friends,7 (34m 22s):And then he got asked to audition for the school himself and he got into,1 (34m 30s):I'm glad you both did because you didn't.7 (34m 33s):I know it would have been nuts. So, so we do the scene and then we find out what happens then is something called callback weekend. And I actually, I have to say, I think that the new school at that time, because the training has completely changed at the school now, since I've graduated. But their audition process was the best that I ever experienced because, and by the way, I auditioned for graduate schools, like on three different occasions. And when I auditioned for the new school, it was like the last gasp. It was the only school I applied to that season. Like I was like, I'm done with this. I'm going to open it.1 (35m 11s):No one, no one accepted you the first times. Right. Mad at them.7 (35m 17s):It was really awful. But are you1 (35m 19s):Fucking kidding me? Okay. All right. So they, you were like, fuck it. This is the last hurrah. I don't get it here. Okay.7 (35m 25s):Yeah. So the only school that I applied to that season, so you do your scene and then they have something called callback weekend where it's a whole weekend. You go and it's a surprise. You don't know what's going to happen. You go. And they have, because part of the core of the training and the new school is having playwrights directors and actors create new work together, creating your own work is a big part or was at that time a big part of the training program. And so you had to put together, we were put in groups and we put together a short play in 24 hours. And that was our, our callback.3 (36m 6s):I mean, that sounds really stressful, but also really7 (36m 8s):Fun. It was so fun.1 (36m 10s):Did you write the play,7 (36m 12s):The playwrights? Did they1 (36m 14s):Right? Yeah.7 (36m 15s):Yeah. At some point too, I did have to do two monologues and I cannot remember when that happened. I think, I think, you know what it was. Okay. It was callback weekend. I had to go and do my two monologues and do like a movement workshop. And then you found out, okay, you've made it now. You're the last round and you're doing a 24 hour play. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was really fun to be honest with you. It was good.3 (36m 42s):Yeah. I bet it was. So what about for undergrad? Were you also doing theater and under?7 (36m 48s):I did, but I didn't get a BFA. I got a BA at UMass at the university of Massachusetts Amherst. They actually have a beautiful theater program there. I had a great experience with them.3 (37m 1s):Yeah. And what was the impetus to go to grad school?7 (37m 6s):I had always, I mean, since I was a small child, like four years old, I've wanted to be an actress. I always, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm a theater nerd. Like I always wanted conservatory training. My family historically was not supportive of this. I really wanted to get a BFA and they didn't want me to do it. And so I ended up going to, you know, regular school, regular school and just getting a BA but studying theater. And so I had always wanted to have the experience of conservatory training.7 (37m 45s):After, after I got my BA at UMass, then I did a, like a training program with the Moscow art theater kind of connected. Cause I had applied for art. Didn't get in. But then the Moscow art theater reached out to me and they were like, Hey, we do this summer program. And we also do a winter program in Moscow. So I did both of those things.1 (38m 9s):Awesome. Yeah. They tell you my art story.7 (38m 12s):Oh yes, please.1 (38m 13s):Dude. I was a fucking idiot. So I, I was at taking a leave of absence from the theater school at DePaul. And I was at, I was at Shakespeare and company on the east coast. I was working there, but anyway, I thought, oh, this is a great time to audition for Harvard.7 (38m 28s):What?1 (38m 30s):I don't know what I was thinking. Like DePaul was fine. Like Harvard, like air chief was actually going to be better. But anyway, I mean, it's all the same once you get there. But so I thought, let me just audition. Sure. I had, usually I have two monologues. I had one monologue. Sure. I was also young and you didn't3 (38m 49s):Read the,1 (38m 52s):I did not understand the assignment. So I show up at a party and I'm do my monologue. And it went really well, even though it was probably a totally ridiculous monologue. It was above my head and the person the woman goes, that's great. And then I just stopped. Right. Cause I didn't have another monologue. And I said, and they said, do you have anything else you could show me? And I literally said no, but I could tell you some jokes.3 (39m 21s):See, I know it's a great idea. I think that was a great, I mean maybe he didn't know her that well, but I like,1 (39m 28s):And it was the truth and I, and they, she looked at, it was, it was, I did not get in there and I think they were all like what? She was like, what I, it was, she wasn't that I was on drugs. I wasn't, but she probably thought this child is on drugs. Like that's the only answer. So anyway, I don't know. But also they closed so no longer around. So you, okay. So you, so you did, you went to Russia?7 (39m 51s):I did. I went to Moscow and I studied like one of my teachers that I stayed with her father was Stanislavski student. I mean, it was crazy1 (40m 2s):My, oh,3 (40m 3s):Tell us everything about that program. It sounds interesting.7 (40m 6s):And I mean, considering what's going on, it's so sad in the world, but I always will hold my experience with the Stanislavski summer school and with it's my hot mess, Moscow art theater, very, very close because you know, I think as actors, NSX and students, we are delicate creatures and our confidence in ourselves and in our instrument and in our own talent is very, very delicate at all times. You know what I mean? And it really studying with them really made me fall in love with the theater and ma built me up and made me feel like, oh, this is what I'm meant to do with my life. And it just was because again, these, you know, the Russians, they, they don't give a shit.7 (40m 53s):They're all about the art. And they care about you as a, an artist. And1 (40m 59s):Did they not? Can I just say, were they not? Were they inclusive about body sizes? Oh, see, this is my problem. It's like what kid? Anybody fucking, not even in Moscow.7 (41m 11s):I mean, listen over there. It's definitely. But what I will say is my experience in classes and stuff, they just expected me to do it, you know, like,1 (41m 21s):Right.7 (41m 21s):My, my Grotowski admire hold biomechanics teachers. They were like, okay, now you will do backbend. You know? And I would just wouldn't do it. And it was like, okay, Catherine, now you will. You know what I mean? And so, and I, you know, I, we had this one teacher who re actually recently passed away. He was the most wonderful man. His name was Misha and Misha taught Michael checkoff technique, which I had never studied before I studied with them. And he was a lunatic, but like in the best, most beautiful way he would do this, this game with us called I love myself where, where he would have us run around the room, like crazy seagull.7 (42m 10s):And then while we're running around the room, like crazy seagulls, he is humming the theme to the godfather. So he goes,1 (42m 18s):It's fantastic. It's like what I did in my day program in therapy.7 (42m 24s):So he's going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and then he'd clap his hands and go number one. And you had to hug yourself and he goes, I love myself. And then he'd clap again. And then you have to run around again and he'd go bump up, Clap number two. And you'd hug someone and he'd go, I love my friends and Cutest. And like, he, I don't know, it was, it was a lovely experience. And I got to do Google. I was in a Google little, oh, Hey, I was in the inspector general. And I just felt seen by these teachers3 (43m 5s):Randomly, I don't know what the connection is, but they're in my town, which only has 30,000 people in it. There's a Michael checkoff like festival. Oh, I don't know if he lived here or I I'll have to look into it more Connecticut.7 (43m 24s):Is that because my grad school, Michael checkoff technique, professor Ragnar fry dog does a maybe1 (43m 34s):Greta. Steve. I bet it's gotta be connected. Ragnar and fry. Duncan7 (43m 38s):Connect,1 (43m 39s):Cover all connected.7 (43m 40s):Yeah. It might be. It might be there. It's somewhere up. I don't know. It might be,1 (43m 46s):Are you in New York city?7 (43m 47s):I am. I am in the city. Okay.3 (43m 51s):Okay. So you didn't feel prepared once you graduated. So what did you do?7 (43m 56s):Well, one thing that the new school, like I said, that they did, that was great. Was they taught us that we have to make our own work, which I think is true. I mean, I think, you know, and you know, I just been through this experience where I had to plumb all of this personal trauma to, you know, being in front of your friends to be an actor. I don't know. And there was a crisis in my family and I ended up using it and applied for an artist residency with Mabu mines. I don't know if you guys Mabee mind says1 (44m 33s):I don't, what7 (44m 34s):Is that? So Mabu mines is a theater company. That's been in New York city since like the sixties, seventies. And they're very experimental run by who has since passed away Ruth Mela check and Joanne Akalaitis and Lee brewer. Who's also, so they they're really into cookie, like experimental crazy theater. And so I got an artist residency with them right out of graduate school. And for a year developed my own place,3 (45m 5s):Something where you had to write a proposal about what you would be working on there. And, and you're, so you wrote something that was informed by a terrible thing that happened to you.7 (45m 15s):Okay. And so, yeah, I wrote a few3 (45m 17s):Minds saying anything about,7 (45m 21s):Because I wrote a play. So yeah. So I come from a very chaotic family. There's just all kinds of craziness. Always my father, who is much older, he was a doctor for nearly like 50 years, maybe 50 years. And he had this huge practice in this like shitty Podunk, back ass words, town and Florida. And he's very eccentric. He doesn't make friends, he's not politically savvy and was employing really ne'er do Wells to run his office.7 (46m 4s):And one of his nurses was writing counterfeit prescriptions1 (46m 10s):For opioids,7 (46m 11s):Opioids. So the, the, what is it? The DEA shut down his office and conducted an investigation for over a year while I'm in graduate school. This is going on. And then D couldn't get him on running a pill mill because he wasn't, but got him on insurance fraud, which I will tell you, actually, something that I do have done in the past no longer, but for a survival job, I've worked as a medical secretary. Every doctor concerns, insurance fraud and the1 (46m 50s):System, the system is set up for that. What are you7 (46m 52s):Talking about? So at the time, my 77, my in fact, my, was it my third year. Yeah. My third year of graduate school, my 77 year old father went to jail. Thank God he wasn't in there for very long, but we fought, he might be, he was held on half a billion dollars bail. Like it was insane how they went after him. And, you know, it's funny because I've been rethinking the project that I did because I was so fresh out of it. I essentially, I took because as he started me letters from jail, and then I realized he had been writing me letters since I, for like 20 years, he's a letter writer.7 (47m 37s):He himself is kind of insane. Like, he's, I love him, but he's, you know, and so anyway, I took all of that source material and I created a play out of it.3 (47m 51s):Wow. And, and I mean, presented for the public, right. Like people came to see it. How was it received?7 (47m 58s):I think it went really well. I mean, it was my first, you know, I, again, being unprepared, you know, coming out of graduate school, I didn't know a lot about promoting your own work, you know, I didn't know to write a press release and I didn't know to, but I did it with Mabu mines. And then I workshopped it in a few other places. I did it at Dixon place, which is another like incubator you're in the city. And then I did it in residency at the brick theater in Williamsburg. And that was, yeah, that was the last showing that I did1 (48m 30s):A solo show.7 (48m 31s):No, I had a hue. I unwisely had a huge cast. It was like nine all of us. Yeah. But it was like about because I'm from the south originally and it was about my family. And like the stories you tell yourself about your family versus reality versus very, yeah. It was, it was a great experience doing that. So3 (48m 55s):How have you continued to create your own work? I know you have a show, your own show, big girls. Is it called big girl?7 (49m 1s):It's called big girl. Yes, I, yeah. I really do enjoy writing and writing for myself. I think that, yeah, my experience has been more fruitful in writing for myself. Then, you know, the little parts you can get or, you know, yeah.1 (49m 20s):I want to let your, I just want to give you permission to let yourself off the hook for the publicizing of your thing. No, no. I need to tell you that I, when I did a solo show and it went to New York, I fucking paid a publicist $10,000 and they didn't do anything. So, so, so I'm just saying he, they didn't write a press release either and you were out $10,000. So was actually saying you saved $10,000. So you did good. Oh, wait. So Gina asked about like, yeah. So you have big girl is a, it's a, it's a show that is still is an ongoing, is it happening right? The second?7 (49m 56s):No, we, so we did. So the way big girl came around is that I started taking improv classes of all things. I hate improv, but I'm glad that I studied it. And I met my producers there in improv class. And I had written a play about body image and they came to see reading of it. And then we decided to do, let's do something together. We decided to write this web series. And so we, we worked on it from like 2018 through 2019.7 (50m 37s):And it's five short episodes. It's stories based on my life, but heightened about dating and just living as a plus sized woman in New York city, every episode is a different genre. So there's a clown episode, a black and white clown episode. That's episode three, which is my favorite of clowning is my favorite theatrical practice. I think I'm working on a clown show right now, actually, but clowning is my favorite. So what do you3 (51m 7s):Love about it? What do you love about coding?7 (51m 10s):I think that clowning is a way of celebrating your vulnerability and your ridiculousness. You know, I think that whatever makes you feel vulnerable is actually your superpower as a performer. It's the thing that people can see that connects us all to our, you know, terror of the abyss, right? And clowning is such a loving and gentle. Isn't the right word. It's, it's a very freeing way to just celebrate whatever is silly or weird about yourself. And if you can laugh at yourself, it gives the audience permission to laugh at themselves, you know, and it's also just really fun.7 (51m 60s):I, I have this beautiful clown professor, my clown, professor, Jean Taylor, she teaches at the Barrow group and that new school and over the pandemic, she reached out to some of us and was like, would you all like to do some zoom clown sessions? And let me tell you that saved my mental health, my like twice a month clown meeting it.3 (52m 25s):It was a picture of a clown school in zoom.7 (52m 28s):It is, I mean, we would just get into nos and we would do eccentric dance. And, you know, she would just have, she has something called go to my spot, which is like, as your clown, you find your spot. It's the whole thing. And, you know, we just made it work and it was, and we would create little, like a tubes as clowns that we would do for her. And it was, it's just, I just love it so much. It's just a, I don't know. It's like balm for the soul. It makes you feel joy.3 (52m 59s):And this is what happens when people feel left out of whatever's happening mainstream wise, as they go find a, like a little off shoot, you know, where, where any aspect of being different is is okay. Celebrated whatever. I mean, in a way it's like, okay, well, I guess that works out too, even though we'd like to be able to be included in mainstream stuff. Right.1 (53m 21s):Well, I feel like that's how all these theater companies that we adore love were made and then, you know, then it becomes something else that gets commercialized. And, but like, if you think about it, like a lot of, a lot of stuff in life, right. Comes from that. And like, I'm now writing feminist body horror. I know, I didn't even know that existed. It only happened because I just was like, okay, well maybe, maybe this. Okay. Fuck it. And then people are like, no, it's actually a genre. And I'm like, what? So like clowning was like, we can do this thing together and tell these stories. And people were like, oh yeah, that's good. And so then that it becomes a thing, you know, for years and years and years, so, okay.1 (54m 4s):So you, you, are you doing a clown show? Are you developing a solo clown show?7 (54m 10s):I have a co clown and a director and we are putting together a clown burlesque show.1 (54m 19s):I love that.3 (54m 21s):That sounds amazing.7 (54m 23s):It's going to be, I'm really excited. Yeah. It's going to be, we're just at the beginnings, like applying to festivals and things like that. And we're just about to start real rehearsals and1 (54m 35s):Oh, is it a scripted, like how does that work in terms of like, what, how what's your process like for us? So I don't know why I keep pushing you to do solo work. I keep asking if everything you do, I feel like I really need you to do a solo show. Apparently7 (54m 46s):I should do a solo show. I haven't before this1 (54m 50s):Do what you want. I just said, so it's a solo show. So you're doing your clown burlesque show. How do you write, is it scripted? Tell me about that.7 (54m 60s):That is a very good question. We are figuring that out because clown involves a lot of, I don't want to call it improvisation, but impulse it's like, you have to let your in order for it, to be honest, right? The clown clowns are my teacher put it this way. They're like cretins. They're very, they're there. Everything is very simple and they're idiots, but experts at the same time and you have to leave room for the unexpected. So our tactic right now is we're going to have a, a loose, an outline, like beats that we want to hit, let's say, but then to leave room for our clowns to play and do what they want.3 (55m 47s):I'm kind of curious about this thing you said about improv, because I also have the feeling that I hate improv, but only to say that I hate doing it, but actually if I was good at it, I wouldn't hate it. So what do you hate about it?7 (56m 2s):I am also not good at it. I get too, too in my I'm just not good at it. I get too in my head. I'm like, why are there so many rules? Why can't I ask questions? Why can't I just come up here and have fun? Why does there have to be a, what does the Harold, why do I have to go back to see the,3 (56m 22s):I mean, think that like, this is all just because a bunch of guys made up improv, right? Like what would it have been like if it was a bunch of women who, who developed the art,1 (56m 35s):It would be clowning and it would be, it would be something more beautiful. I mean, I just think the culture of improv is such garbage and I happen to love improv. I love, love, love it, but I love it because I'm scared because I do feel like you can do no wrong and improv, especially at like an improv audition for commercials and shit are my jam because there's no things to memorize and, and, and to be serious actors and not fuck anything up, but that does crossover into yeah. It, if you're in a culture and improv like school, the culture is there a lot of rules and there are a lot of stuff.1 (57m 16s):And also to be fair, you know, to be, or to be honest, there's a lot of drinking. There's a lot of drugging. It's just not my scene. And it's also really like a 22 year old white dudes see3 (57m 25s):Very fresh, very fat frat life,1 (57m 28s):But okay. So go ahead.7 (57m 30s):Wait, where was1 (57m 31s):I? Oh, no, it's me. I was just saying, go ahead. Either one of you. Cause3 (57m 36s):Well, I, I, I can't actually bring us back to what we were talking about before, but I can ask you, does new school do a showcase at the end? Can you tell us about it?7 (57m 48s):Sure. So it was, we did our showcase at playwrights horizons. We worked on our scenes for a semester and there were a lot of us in my class. So I got into graduate school, like at a time when people like right after the oh eight recession. So tons of people were applying to graduate school and they let 35 actors into our class. And so that was a big, obviously a big issue all through my graduate experience was what do we do with all of these kids?7 (58m 36s):There were, I think at least a good 10 people in my class who had no business. Like they just shouldn't have. And there were people who graduated from the most expensive. The, my school debt is so ridiculous. It's imaginary. There were people who graduated from my program who never stepped foot on a main stage.1 (58m 56s):We, why is it so fricking expensive? What's happening?7 (58m 60s):I it's the new school. I don't know. But yeah, it's the most expensive,1 (59m 5s):Never we're up. We've heard this before, by the way, at other schools Where the people never, there were people that graduated, maybe not an MFA, but like, there are people that graduated that were never in a show and I'm like, okay,7 (59m 19s):I would have, yeah. I,1 (59m 22s):Why weren't they at a show? They never got cast or7 (59m 24s):They didn't get cast.1 (59m 26s):I give him like a pity part. Like you're going to be Cinderella's step sister. And the,7 (59m 31s):I mean, they would be like in the chorus of something1 (59m 34s):That would have been me. That would have been me. I know it would've been3 (59m 38s):Me too. Me too, but was it for agents? And the showcase was for agents.7 (59m 42s):Yeah. Agents and managers. And I did two scenes from bridesmaids because bridesmaid said recently come out. So I did the airplane scene with, and then I did her, her monologue at the end about being in the CIA. I just love. And it probably wasn't wise of me to choose scenes from what, but I was like, fuck it. This is what I wanna do. I worship Melissa McCarthy. I think that she's I, if I ever met her, I would absolutely lose my mind. I just think she be,3 (1h 0m 13s):I think that was the perfect thing to do because right. Because the, the, the thing that bothered, I are always talking about that we never got is that we were supposed to think of ourselves as, you know, to be crass, like a product and what, you know, so what is our brand and what, you know, and we never did that, but that is what is required. So why is it not good to have done the Melissa McCarthy?7 (1h 0m 36s):I guess maybe I think you're right. I maybe I felt like I should have shown more range.1 (1h 0m 42s):They're not looking for range. Let me tell you something. They're looking to look at you seriously and now be in LA. I can really tell you looking at, oh, oh, she knows. She, she, she knows that we think she's going to be like the Melissa McCarthy character. Great. So let us just all get on the, the Melissa McCarthy bus with her, and then we can sell her that way. And maybe we'll all make a lot of money and be rich. Now look, I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying it was smart in terms of a business move. And please tell me you got an agent. Did you get an agent and a manager?7 (1h 1m 15s):Ah, I, I got one agent who freelanced with me for a minute and he sent me on two auditions in three years.1 (1h 1m 31s):Okay. All right.7 (1h 1m 32s):So1 (1h 1m 33s):Not good, not good.7 (1h 1m 35s):And that agent, I mean, I,1 (1h 1m 38s):What,7 (1h 1m 39s):He, it just,8 (1h 1m 41s):Eh,7 (1h 1m 44s):I'm worried because why?1 (1h 1m 46s):Okay. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. This is not about him. This is about your reaction. You don't have to, obviously don't say the name, but this is about your experience of what it was like to be that age and work with is someone in the industry. So tell it now.7 (1h 2m 2s):Okay. So from that point, yes, from that point of view, you know, number one, it, you know, I, I had one really solid audition. I didn't book it, but it was my first big audition in a big room. And I went in and I was prepared and I killed it. And I remember, oh, at PA, oh, oh wait, okay. It's back. Oh, you're1 (1h 2m 24s):Fine.7 (1h 2m 25s):Okay. Like froze for a1 (1h 2m 26s):Second. That's okay.7 (1h 2m 29s):I went in and it was Judy Henderson's office. She's a casting director. I killed it. And I had them all laughing. And I remember I walked out and I heard the director say, oh, that was really good.1 (1h 2m 43s):Yes.7 (1h 2m 44s):So that was such a win right out of an acting program. You know, I didn't get a call back. I didn't book it, but it was such a great, you know, experience. But then after that, and I emailed my agent to say, Hey, this was so great. This is what the people said, send, thank you, notes, all of that. But he like had this Facebook group for the members of the agency and he would have these mixers, Which, and I went to one and it made me so uncomfortable because it was like him. And then a bunch of like women, you know what I mean?1 (1h 3m 23s):Yeah. It's gross. That's gross. I don't know who you are, agents. So it's not a personal thing, but also that's gross.7 (1h 3m 29s):Yeah.1 (1h 3m 30s):It's weird. That's weird.7 (1h 3m 32s):And like also something that made me super uncomfortable would be that there would on the Facebook group, he would put up these statuses, like, you know, a word to the wise, never write an email to an agent like this deducted that dah, dah, and don't show up to an audition doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just in my head, I'm like, why don't you go get me an audition instead of spending your time? And like, there is no roadmap for young actors. None of us know what the fuck we're doing.3 (1h 4m 4s):Well, let's do mystify something right now for people who haven't gone through this yet. Why do some agents not get auditions for their clients?1 (1h 4m 16s):Oh, I know. I feel like, I feel like for what my knowledge is of working in casting and then also working as a writer and an actor, is that agents. Okay. So like, this is my understanding. All agents get the same breakdowns, right? And a lot of times for better, for worse they're thinking is I need to, I can't possibly do everything on this breakdown. So who are the people I know that are gonna, for whatever reason are top of mind that are gonna, that have a better, good chance of booking these things. And then they sort of gravitate towards that. And then a lot of people who aren't, don't look a certain way for whatever, get pushed to the side.1 (1h 5m 2s):And then I think we're also not as actors at our schools and in the world taught how to have a relationship with an agent that is on equal footing so that you stay top. This is what I teach my kids at the theater school, which is like how to build a relationship or get out of one. When you feel like it's not on equal footing where you can't, you don't feel like you can call or email the agent and say, Hey, I'm feeling like I'm not going out. Is there something that we can do together? Because we're so scared of the agent. We never make those, but I am. I think that is what happens.1 (1h 5m 43s):And then the fear begets fear. And then you just never hear from them again. Then they drop you or whatever. So it's a matter. So that's what happens. And, and agents, a lot of times, like the rest of us are traumatized and hurt and scared. And, and it's easy to take that shit out on younger people.3 (1h 6m 3s):So it's not what I was thinking. You were going to say, which is that if the agent is unknown, they literally cannot get their client. Okay. It's not that,1 (1h 6m 15s):I mean, I feel like they, I feel like S H certain agents have better relationships than others with casting, but everyone gets the same breakdowns. It's, it's a, it's a common document. So anyone, if we, if you, and I said, now we're an agent. We would get those breakdowns and we could start submitting people. And if you send a kick ass letter that says, Hey, Catherine is perfect for this. Look at our shots. Please see her, they'll see her because they want, Cassie wants to meet new, new, fresh faces that are kick ass. Like that's their jam. So, yeah, it's a matter of top of mind. And3 (1h 6m 49s):Well, since we're on the topic, I don't know. You mentioned this thing about getting a good relationship with your agent CA well, so Kevin, do you have an agent now?7 (1h 6m 57s):I am. Now I am looking for representation right3 (1h 7m 0s):Now. All right. You're looking for representation. A lot of people who listen to this podcast are recent graduates from theater school. I have my only experience with an agent is I'm helped my son with his stuff. And so I'm, I have a relationship with his agent. I'm very scared of this person. And when he doesn't like something we did just on my stomach. So like, what, I mean, you know, what, what do you do and how do you have a good relationship with an agent? Because it seems like they're all the hassle.1 (1h 7m 31s):No, no, they, they, it does seem like that. They're not all assholes, but I feel like a lot of them are, are scary. So inherent and Gina, Gina talks about this and Catherine, I want to know your thoughts. So, so we talk about the idea that like inherent in this industry is a pear is a patriarchal and like a, a status, right. Triangle, whatever hierarchy. So that creates a dynamic where the people that have, are seemingly having the more power are, are, are a little bit mean. It can be a little bit mean. So Catherine, how do you think, I guess my question for you would be like, what is your, maybe your experience with how to work with that and what are you looking to do differently this time when you have an agent, I guess, for the youngsters7 (1h 8m 15s):Listening? So my experience with them being mean, Or I just think that there is a, in my experience, there has been a feeling of being dismissed perhaps of, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, I do a lot of in the past, I've done a lot of there's this company here in the city called one-on-one, which there's another one that's called, like actor's connection where you can go and it, it kinda sucks. It's pay to play and you pay like a little fee to do a class with a casting director or an agent, or, you know, an opportunity for like a 10, 15 minute meeting with an agent.7 (1h 9m 2s):And I have met some success with that, you know, in the past, I don't necessarily, I feel a little morally repugnant about pay to play. You know, this is such a, I mean, the other thing along with the hierarchy of this industry is that it's predatory, you know, it's very predatory on the hopes and dreams of, you know, young actors. And so I have had tons of experience going into auditions for things. And, you know, it's like, oh, you have to pay to do this, or you have to it. And it's like, okay, well, fuck you, bye. I'm not going to pay you to work. But, and then what was the second part of your question about, oh, what am I looking to do differently?7 (1h 9m 45s):I mean, I think the thing is right, I'm a character actress. I'm a misfit, certainly in the industry. And I need to find someone who really gets me, gets my work. You know, I want to find representation that isn't necessarily trying to, and this is perhaps an unrealistic dream, but I, I would like to find representation that that gets my voice as an artist, and doesn't necessarily want to pigeonhole me. You know, for example, I will never, I'm very into body justice and fat liberation.7 (1h 10m 30s):I'm not gonna even say body positivity anymore because it's been co-opted by a skinny white women, but I will never make a weight loss, commercial that's not happening. And that might be a problem for a commercial agent who meets me, you know what I mean? And so I, so yeah, I, I would like to find a team who, who gets me and really, you know, wants to, wants to see me succeed in that, in the, in that way,3 (1h 10m 59s):This relates pause to our conversation earlier, just about contracting versus expanding. And I think that my mindset for certain, and maybe other people too, is like, you know, it's like kind of like how I used to be with boyfriends. If, just, if, if anybody likes me that I have to go with them because there's not going to be anybody else that likes me. Right. When in reality, It seems like the, the way to think about it is, oh, they need me because I know what I'm doing. And I have this look and I've seen people who look like me in this kind of thing. And there'll be lucky to find me because I can solve a problem for them.3 (1h 11m 40s):That's not how I've ever thought about it. I've thought about it. Like, I hope they pick me, but they probably won't. So if anybody shows me any attention, even if I have to pay for it, then the bus. Yeah.1 (1h 11m 50s):I mean, I think that's so right on. And I will say that. And I, I, I was that way for, and I still am obviously that way, but I found a team. I love my team, but it took me a very long time. And it took me to 40, I dunno, 44 to do that or 43. And it took me going in literally and saying, this is me, here's my body of work. I look like this. I want, I came in, I went in with a list of things in a piece of paper and what I brought to the table and what I expected from a relationship.1 (1h 12m 35s):And I had to be prepared that they were going to say, no, thank you. Like, this is crazy. Fuck you. But they didn't say that instead. They said, we, we support you. We've looked at your stuff. We believe in you. And we want to work with you. And that was all right. And then I found my person at that place. And when she left, I followed her. So it really is about relationships, but it's like, it takes a long check. My therapist, this, it takes a long time to do the work. Like it is not an overnight
Intro: teenage hackersLet Me Run This By You: setting limits with KanyeInterview: We talk to Josh Sobel about Cal Arts, Travis Preston, Yale School of Drama, Robert Brustein, Fig and the Wasp, Oberlin College, The O'Neill Theater Center, Michael Cadman, Royal Shakespeare Company, Chicago ensemble theatre, Strawdog Theatre Company, Ianesco's Rhinoceros, Rochester NY, Brighton High School, A Chorus Line, Cabaret, horizontal hierarchies, The Wooster Group, change talk vs. change action, Chris Ackerlind, Light in the Piazza, Paula Vogel's Indecent, Samantha Behr, Haven Chicago, The Den Theater, Rochester Philharmonic, Lorenzo Palomo, Ian Martin, Hal Prince, Dr. Seuss' The Sneetches, John de Lancie, Rochester Academy of Medicine, radiation oncology, The Xylophone West by Alex Lubischer, Isaac Gomez's The Displaced, Center Theatre Group, Jeremy O'Harris' Slave Play, Rashaad Hall, Chris Jones' review of Ms. Blakk for President.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (32s):I think, I think my son has fig he's gotten into sort of like the hacking side of things and he always wants to get around all of the restrictions we put on him. Like we have content restrictions, we have time limits. And I think he's just made it his mission. I mean, this is like the theme of his life. He has made it his mission to subvert the paradigm as my husband would say. And it's exhausting because all I can do is try to be like 10 steps behind them and learn like what's a VPN. That's what I, I think what he did. I think he installed a VPN to bypass the internet control that I have.2 (1m 20s):Oh1 (1m 20s):My God.2 (1m 22s):And it somehow how that relates to, I can watch, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that if I turn off the wifi, I can watch it on my cellular data.4 (1m 33s):It's insane.2 (1m 35s):Yeah. It's, it's beyond insane. I, and you know, I like, I'm always on this thing where I'm vacillating between letting it go and just trying harder to, you know, impose the limit. I mean, you, I wouldn't, before I had kids, I would not have imagined it was this hard to impose limits on people, you know, because you don't want them to not have what they want. Right.4 (2m 6s):Right.2 (2m 7s):And, and it's a real battle to like, make myself, give myself and my children limits. It's really hard.4 (2m 17s):My God. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I'm stuck on, it's like maybe there was okay. I think I'm like trying to figure out the thing, which is like, I know what I think I know what happened. So you have restrictions on content. Like, and I think a genius, the Kanye trilogy, like completely has all those triggers in it. Like all the things are in it. There's sex, suicide. There's, there's, it's all the things you, I wouldn't want a susceptible teenager to watch. Right. Like just for various reasons, not, not for anything other than triggers. Right. So like my nieces and nephew, the same thing, so, okay.4 (2m 57s):So then you set that right? And you're like, no, no, but then the kid or anyone can get a VPN, which then resets, I think the con, but I think you're still on the, you're still, you're still on the content warning site, which is blocking genius. You from watching genius. That is fucking, I mean, it's kind of genius in a way, but it's also so infuriating. It's like, come on, dude. I'm just trying to watch my fucking Kanye west bullshit.2 (3m 26s):It's literally just this race of like today I'm on top. And then the next day it's like, oh my God, they, they, they run the show. I'll never forget. There was a scene in the first season of the Sopranos where Tony and Carmel are having a problem with Anthony, or maybe it was with the daughter, a meadow and they're in their bedroom. And he goes, if she finds out, we have no power. We're screwed. And I laughed. It was the time I had watched it after I had teenagers. Yeah. Like that's what it is. We actually have no power. And yet the, the, the con that we're forced to do is pretend like we have all the power.2 (4m 12s):It's4 (4m 13s):Like2 (4m 13s):Covering4 (4m 14s):A metaphor also for life about like my mom's friend sent me something that said, you know, I forget it was like her friend had passed away and it's not fair and it's not fair. And I, and it isn't, and that's the thing. Like it, the truth is not fair. Like it sucks. But like, and, and we pretend that things are fair because if we don't, it's absolute chaos. Like if we didn't pretend really that red means stop and green means go, we'd have a real fucking problem. If we all rebelled and said, you know what, fuck you, green means go. And red means stop. And we all sent a mass media thing around.4 (4m 56s):There would be chaos. It would be2 (5m 13s):The bus. And I guess that's just the headline right there. That's like the headline in the story. Like you took the bus from LA to San Fran, Fran, because gas is so expensive.4 (5m 22s):Well, many things. Okay. So driving, it's really a grind on the five coming home, especially it's like, so rough, like, it can be a nine hour instead of five, six hours situation. It's crazy. Cause the five sucks. So, so that was the first like, and then gas. So I wasn't gonna drive cause I did the drive Thanksgiving and it was like, oh God. And then, so I was like, okay, well I'll, I'll just, I I'll fly. But then I'm afraid to fly. Even though the flight is literally 45 minutes. And then I was like, okay, but then because of gas, I said, okay, I'm going to just get my balls into it. I'm going to build up my balls and I'm going to fly. But then because of gas, you know, does jets use gas fuel though?4 (6m 6s):The flights really went up six San Francisco. You shouldn't even get a flight for a hundred bucks on Southwest round trip, like 120. No, no, two 20. So I'm like, oh no. So then I say, okay, well I'll take my Amtrak. Of course, which is actually what I, what I looked at first. But the track of it, it's a beautiful ride. It takes forever, but it goes up the coast and it's gorgeous. And you can like bid to get a fancy room,2 (6m 28s):Right? Yeah.4 (6m 29s):Well, okay. Well the tracks being repaired, so then you'd have to take a Greyhound. I'm not taking a Greyhound. So then I was like, okay, what would it take a fancy bus? And it's a flick2 (6m 38s):Of a fancy4 (6m 39s):Flex bus flicks. And Flix is big in Europe and they're charter buses and they have bathrooms and it's like assigned seating. And I bought two seats because I was like, fuck you. And it's so inexpensive, but still listen. I just, you know, and I worked, my dad was an addict. I have food addict issues. I get addicts. So don't come. People don't come at me for saying this. But the bus is a place where heroin, heroin, addicts thrive. Like that2 (7m 9s):Is the heroin addict doing on the4 (7m 11s):Bus nodding out. So there's two, there was a couple and I was like, oh, these are heroin addicts. They just looked so like, their luggage was all fucked up. They couldn't barely get on the bus. They were fighting young people, LA style tattoos. Fine. I am tattoos. It's not that they, but it was like this very specific look thin bedraggled, but not, not, not a curated look like more like, I'm just fucked up inappropriate clothing for the weather. Like big. Although in San Francisco is cold. Maybe they need something. I didn't know. They had like heavy coats on it's like 90 degree, all their shit. Right? Like they're, you know, I've got one little carrier. They've got like bags, like big things.4 (7m 52s):Okay. And that you can check, but you have to pay more for it. And their suitcases are falling apart. Okay. Fine. But they have cell phones, which is so, but a lot of people have cell phones. I mean, I I'm always shocked when people have cell phones that look like they shouldn't, I'm like, what? How do you maintain that? But anyway, so they get on an immediate, they sit in the, they got the seats in the way back, which is like a little bigger, but also your brother bathroom's gross, but they just not out immediately. They get on and like midfoot, mid fighting. They just like pass out and I'm like, oh my God. Like not out like out. And then don't wake up until we get there. Like literally it's an eight hour ride.4 (8m 32s):They don't get up at all.2 (8m 35s):Wow. They'd probably been awake. Yeah. Or I guess maybe not4 (8m 41s):How2 (8m 42s):It works with the4 (8m 42s):Heroin. Well, it depends like, I mean,2 (8m 44s):Not the heroin.4 (8m 46s):That's my new band name. That's our new band name. The heroin's got mics on two levels.2 (8m 51s):Yeah,4 (8m 53s):That was good. Gina. Okay. So no for me and my, my, my clients were a lot of them on heroin. And what would happen is like, you can't always get heroin. Right. Because it's expensive. And because I mean, it's cheaper than whatever, but it's expensive. And then, so you go without it and you start to detox and then you're up, you can't sleep. You're a mess. And then when you finally score again or whatever, get your heroin, then you just feel great for about half an hour. Then you pass out. It's just so it's such a waste, but okay. It's a process.2 (9m 25s):You know, although I would never want to be a heroin addict. I will say something like what's occurring to me. As you're talking about this couple is like, you know how with addicts, their life is very focused around just scoring or whatever. So to be able to have your life goals in these little chunks is really appealing to me.4 (9m 47s):Yeah. Well, it's a very, very, very specified job2 (9m 52s):World. Right? You make, I think when you're a heroin addict, you must have a really small world and your objectives are like, get score. That's at a place to4 (10m 1s):Sleep and don't get arrested and don't2 (10m 3s):Get, don't get arrested. Like there's something and I, I'm sorry to be cheeky about it. Cause people have really suffered with heroin addiction. I, I'm not suggesting that people, anybody should be an addict. I'm just saying like the idea4 (10m 14s):Yeah. To you. It's like, yeah, me too.2 (10m 17s):Actually even just the other day I was thinking I was watching somebody who had, what I imagined was probably a minimum wage job. And I don't remember what the job was now, but I just, I was looking at the person doing their tasks and I was thinking, yeah, maybe I should get a job like that. You know? And then 30 seconds in, I'm really trying to imagine myself. And I'm like, what am I talking about? Oh, people don't love working at McDonald's. Don't love, you know, whatever the4 (10m 47s):Jobs. And I will in, in adulthood in 30 dumb, in 40 dumb, like the last one I had at that fucking donut shop, I was like, oh, this seemed quaint. The chef was a jerk. I got in like a fight with the chef was so rude. Like here I am 42, right. Or 43 or something. And I was working at this place in Rogers park for like cash only under the table owned by these two young SIRS. They, whatever their business was working. But like the fucking chef was like talking shit about me. Like,2 (11m 23s):Is that a doughnut chef? No,4 (11m 28s):I should have said that. No, they also serve sandwiches. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I was2 (11m 33s):Just thinking to myself, like, do you have to be a chef?4 (11m 36s):No, that's hilarious. But she was like, or they were, they were talking shit about me. And I was like, oh no, no, no. And I was basically volunteering there. I was so outraged. I was like This person that2 (11m 51s):To read an essay about that, you've got, write an essay about your donut shop stint.4 (11m 55s):Oh, I will. And I want to name names. They were fucking assholes. And also they, like, when I went to confront the PR, like I was like, I like when you walk behind someone you're supposed to stay behind. Right. But if you've never worked in the restaurant industry that does not come naturally. And also I'm really fast moving. So like I just met, she goes, you have to stay behind. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna fucking kill you. And then she would under her breath talk shit to me about to the other people. And so, and so I finally, you get them, you get them every time, this way. So I pulled the owner aside and I was really upset, like crying because she was treating me like shit. And I said, listen, what the fuck is this? And then the next, the person wanted to then that the owner was like, look, this lady is doing as a favor by working here basically because we have no one and she's working on under the table.4 (12m 42s):So then the, the, the person wanted to talk to me, the chef and I talked to her, I'm like what? She goes, I'm sorry. If I come off a little, I go, oh no, no, you don't come off. You are. And I said, I don't know what's happening here. I'm like, just try to do my job and go the fuck home and make my money to pay my cell phone bill, bitch. Like I wrote that and then I just quit. I was like, fuck all. Y'all. So, no, it sounds really quaint, which is why I fucking get those jobs. And then you get in there and you're like, oh, this is how on earth.2 (13m 11s):Oh God, I am sure it was, I4 (13m 15s):Don't do2 (13m 15s):It. Yeah, no, no, I won't. I will not do it. It just, it just periodically, it just occurred to me4 (13m 20s):Because there's a set skill set set of tasks that no one eat you ma I imagine that no one is like on their high horse. No, no. People are still on their fucking high horse in minimum wage jobs. There's a hierarchy of fucking assholes anywhere you've.2 (13m 37s):But then I did get to watch the third episode of the Kanye documentary and then, okay, well, I didn't finish it though. I'm only like 20 minutes into it. It's so sad. Right? It's going to go on. It's going to turn4 (13m 50s):It. It does. But in also in an unexpected way, what I will say, I think we should talk about the third episode next time. Okay.2 (13m 58s):But4 (13m 59s):The first two, for me, fucking amazing in the storytelling, whether, regardless of how I feel about Kanye west, which I don't feel any kind of way other than, I mean, I just, I I'm talking about the, since we're about to make a documentary, right? Like I'm looking at, I love the first two. I love cooties filmmaking. And the first two episodes, it then takes a turn on the third, but like the first two are so packed with information and visuals and, and storytelling.4 (14m 39s):Like, I loved it. You and you also get a S he such a great job of like showing a slice of time, you know, and, and, and all the characters in it and real life people we know and get glimpses of. And I just thought, and for me, the most moving part of it, I mean, I have real lot of feelings about Donda and Connie's relationship and Donda herself. I have a lot of diagnoses for both of them, but I'm not, you know, like, I feel like she's got bipolar. Like, I think there's a whole thing going on there, but what I found, I have never, I have never been so moved for, for the hustle and the perseverance of a human being and the just sort of neutral and unwavering.4 (15m 32s):We know it's not really true, but like they're like, but the unwavered, what I saw was an unwavering unshakable, almost naive belief in oneself.2 (15m 42s):This is what I wanted to talk to you about. This is what I wanted to run by you. Cause the, the connection between talking about that, me working on the documentary and, and this a, I agree with you, Cody is an amazing documentarian. And we could totally learn a lot from the way that he weaved his own personal story into that, his relationship with this, you know, mega personality. But yeah, you know, the scene where he's talking to a bunch of kids and he's, he's talking about self-compassion, I mean, he, he has a point, you know, what, what should you, you created an amazing piece of art and somebody compliments you on it and you you're supposed to pretend like you're dumb.2 (16m 29s):You all, you don't agree that it's, that it's amazing. You know, like there's something to be said for that. And there's something to be said for what you're just describing the unshakable confidence, but I want to hear what your thoughts are about their relationship.4 (16m 45s):It was interesting to watch the process of what I would call a simultaneous process of infantilizing him as well as idolizing him as well as parental defying him, as well as believing in him. It's a combo platter. And I believe from watching her and watching what I noticed in her mannerisms and his that I think they both had a mania thing going on, like in her eyeballs. So I have become really good at looking at people's eyeballs.4 (17m 26s):And I notice in the documentary, as it goes along when Kanye is manic, his voice goes up in pitch and his eyeballs looked different and she had this eyeball situation, which is this sort of darty, Desperate eyeballs. And I noticed it in my clients all the time and I'd be like, oh, they're manic, they're manic. It's not an, and it's like, hypomania, it's not for her. But like, I saw that in her. And I was like, oh, like, what's happening? Where am I going? What's happening? Who can I okay. And, and covered with a bit of like, you know, self-help, you can do it this and perseverance, but it's, it's all a combo platter, but that was my take.4 (18m 15s):What was on their relationship was like a, I need you, you need me, what's happening. I'm worried about you, but I'm going to then hope that by, by really pumping you up, that I'm going to pump up the mental illness away.2 (18m 31s):. Yeah. Well, I, I agree with what you say about the, their relationship, their dynamic, and it makes sense that yeah, maybe she had a touch of the bipolar too. What I was thinking about it is, and like I say, I haven't gotten through the third episode, but what I was thinking is it's so evident how meaningful their relationship was to both of them, but in this case for, for him and that he could just maybe spend the rest of his life, chasing that relationship, chasing a woman who will fall over him, the way that she did.2 (19m 14s):I mean, really what it seems like, what he needs is a person who kind of use it as their sole purpose in life to, to, to support his genius, which is why he probably makes a terrible partner, But that the, she gave him like this, like she was mainlining love to.4 (19m 35s):Yeah.2 (19m 37s):And you know, he's unlikely to find that any place else. Right,4 (19m 41s):Right.2 (19m 41s):But he's still looking, I think, Well,4 (19m 46s):And then it's really interesting. So like Cody gave up his whole life to, to follow him and it wasn't enough. Like it, it becomes not enough. And then when the person literally is removed by death, then what do you do is what we're seeing in the documentary. But like the it's, it's a it's, it's so fucked up because I, I feel like from watching from the outside, she must've felt like she was his only hope. Right. Which is which, okay. Which I'm sure is it's2 (20m 18s):Hard to me was her only hope.4 (20m 19s):No, she was, she's like, I'm my son's only advocate. Right? My old, his only hope for love and happiness comes from me ultimately. And whatever went down in his childhood, I have to make up for what other, all of them, with the other, all the mothers stuff happens. Right. I can imagine. And then it's like, yeah, it sets him up to be, like you said, chasing that the rest of his entire life. And she's not going to be around forever. And she did the best she could. And she did so much compared to what a lot of people do. And he's, it's just, it, you throw in mega stardom in there and it is a recipe for absolute meltdown.2 (21m 6s):It actually, it really relates to the thing we were talking about when we started talking today, which is about limits and limit setting. And I think I mentioned to you that I'm also reading this book about Sandy hook conspiracy and the straight line between Sandy hook conspiracy and the January 6th instruction. But in the part of the book where they're talking about Adam Lanza and his mother, I hadn't heard this before that, you know, he, he he'd been flagged in the psychiatric system, you know, going back since he was a young boy and I don't know why she opted out of treatment for him. But what I do know from this book is that what she strove to do was keep meeting his needs wherever they were.2 (21m 53s):But because he was so mentally ill, his needs were things like w w when he had his, the intake at Yale, the clinician noted that he said to his mother, you need to stand with no part of your body touching the wall and that she just did it. And that at home, it had gotten too, there were things he couldn't have cooking odors, curtains, door knobs.4 (22m 23s):Yeah.2 (22m 24s):And she just kept meeting the need. And this was something that I really relate to. Hopefully I have not going off the rails like that, but when your child is suffering and what they're telling you is I want this thing, the decision to say, I know better than you. You think you want this thing, but that is not the right thing for you and for that child to be screaming in your face or not. But, you know, with all of their energy, all of their conviction, they're coming to you saying no, this with my kids, it's the screens.2 (23m 4s):No, I need my screen time. And I'm going. Yeah. But you, you can't know what I know, which is that you, it's not good for you. It's simply not good. And it's just so hard to tolerate when your child is enraged or hurt by you4 (23m 22s):Suffering the suffering.2 (23m 24s):So nobody said any limits for Kanye, and he's now floating like a balloon in the ether, right?4 (23m 32s):Yeah. It's, it's really bad. He's now he's now has restraining orders. And now he's got the Grammy said he can't perform there. So now the limits are being imposed that are huge. And I don't know what's going to, and I also, from working in Hollywood, what I noticed was it is so easy when you have money and power yeah. To, to develop a team that will, will do what you're saying. That, that Adam Lanza's Mrs. Or miss Lanza did. It's so easy to have that bought and built in.2 (24m 15s):And I will tell you this, my, one of my very most successful treatments that I did when I was at private practice therapist is I treated somebody with very, very severe borderline personality disorder. And it was a kind of situation where the client would quit all of the time, you know, quit, quit therapy. And then, and then you would do this dance of like, they, you know, they don't really mean it. So you don't, you don't give up their appointment time because they're going to show up. Sometimes they're going to show up and act like nothing happened. Like they never said they were going to quit. So with this one person that I've been working with for a really long time, and we had a good relationship, which, which is to say yes, she was very, very sick.2 (25m 4s):And she was very, very difficult, but also she had so many great qualities that it kept me. Like, it kept me really invested in her, but the 50th time or whatever it was that she quit after I, she was also in this group that I was running and she like got violent Sharna in the group and left and whatever. Anyway, this time around, when she quit treatment, I said, okay, we're done now. And then she showed up for her next appointment. And I said, no, we're, we're done now. And that precipitated a year long hospitalization for her, but this person is now doing amazing, honestly.2 (25m 49s):And I knew in her family dynamic, her parents were afraid to set limits with that because she was a very, very strong personality, but it was only through the limit setting anything. It had to go all the way to the end, right. For her and, and to, to reject and decry and be victimized and blah, blah, blah, for then her to like follow her dream College. She, she, I can't say what it is obviously, but she has a job that was the job of her dreams and that she learned, she only discovered was the job of her dreams in treatment and that she could have only gotten to do after having really had to contend with actually living with the limit.0 (26m 42s):Well,3 (26m 55s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Josh . Josh is graduating this year with his MFA in directing from Cal arts. And he formerly had a whole career in Chicago as artistic director of the Haven in Chicago. And he has a lot of interesting insights about his experience of being in school again, after having well launched into his career. So please enjoy our conversation with Josh Sobel.2 (27m 36s):So Josh was just explaining the Cal arts is, I was saying, is it a conservatory? And he was saying, it's an art school in the truest sense. So go ahead and repeat what you're saying.6 (27m 44s):Yeah. So like Travis, who's an alum of like Yale back from the Robert Brustein days of Yale. He he's like, look, Yale school of drama is always considered like, Ooh, Yale school of drama, but he's like, if you think about it within the larger Yale structure, you've also got like the business school and like, you've got the journal, you've got the medical school, you've got all these things. So like within the theater universe, it's huge, but within the structure of the university, it Yale, you know, and so the beauty of Cal arts in a way is that it exists outside of that larger sort of academic structure. It isn't part of a university. It is an art school with a theater department.6 (28m 27s):And there's something that, that is really freeing honestly about that. And the Cal arts in particular sort of leaned into in terms of its sort of generative and, and experimental sort of Ben it's, it's been an interesting experience. Yeah, please.2 (28m 45s):Gina Bridget went there. Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I think she's the another co Cal arts alum we have.6 (28m 51s):Well, and it's funny, cause you mentioned they were an acting alum and the acting program I have to say is in particular fascinating and unique. And I love it because unlike a lot of programs I've encountered and I've like taught in academia a little bit before I went in, before I started as a student in it, it's like very few programs encouraged teach and want their actors to be generative artists in their own. Right. And bring that to the table in the room. And honestly, as a director, I'm like, it's a gift. It is such a goddamn gift in terms of the collaborative process. Like I, I can sometimes when I'm hitting my own moment, like really feel comfortable being like, I need like a physical gesture representing a panic attack in slow motion that moves across the stage this way, take third, take 30 minutes.6 (29m 44s):Here's some music and an object.4 (29m 46s):Oh God, that sounds like the greatest thing I've ever heard.6 (29m 51s):I did something similar with a particular actor in my thesis show thesis show, quote unquote. And like she killed it. Oh my God. Avalon Greenberg call. She's about to graduate from the BFA program and she's, or a couple of years. And she's incredible. But like she ran with it and these actors are sort of prepared to take that and like, just make shit and be like, is this what it is? What does it need? And then I can sit there and like sculpt, we can then like work together to be like, Ooh, let's expand that moment out. Let's tighten that bit. And we're then working collaboratively on this other thing.4 (30m 25s):So amazing Josh, like, like I, I, I do this every time we talked to someone that I really like, and I like their vibe and I like how they're talking about their education. I'm like, oh, I'm going to apply there. And then I remember that I did apply to Cal arts for undergrad and I got a call back, which was like the greatest thing, because I was a terrible actor. And I like in the truest sense, like what you're talking about, I would have been like, so, so I am, so I am so glad to talk to you because I, when you say things like that, about how you direct as well, and I'm not a director, Gina directs, I don't direct, but like I want to work with someone who says shit like that.6 (31m 7s):Well, I, I really, I don't know. It's funny. I, you know, outside of like grad school, when I was in undergrad, I went to undergrad at Oberlin college, which is really sort of a diamond in the rough school for theater. It's like, and it's a lot of OBS do well out there. And it's weird because it's like, it's not known, but it's really good. But while I was there, I also did a semester at the O'Neill and I don't know if you're familiar, the national theater Institute. Yeah. So I, I did fall 2007 and like, I really lucked out my partner and I were a year apart actually, before we ever met weird small world, but we both walked out because we've got there right at the time as this particular artistic director was there, Michael Cadman, who was a, an alum himself of the Royal Shakespeare company.6 (31m 52s):And like he understood ensemble. It's funny. Cause I always like, what am I, I love Chicago and I miss Chicago so much, but one of my like little gripes with Chicago is that the word ensemble gets thrown out a4 (32m 6s):Lot.6 (32m 7s):And I, I have a very particular opinion about that because it's like, I think ensemble sometimes it's just meant to mean or thought to mean like a collection of actors, you know, or the company members, you know, the, the Steppenwolf ensemble or the straw dog or whatever. And I'm like ensemble is a value. I think ensemble is, is some it's about how one sits in the middle of a collaborative process. It's about how the threads are drawn. Not even just in the actors, it's about the threads are drawn outside to stage management, to producing, to designers, to everything. Like, and we're all coming together to sort of generate something together, right?6 (32m 49s):Like that's ensemble and Michael understood more than anyone I've ever met in my life. Like how to nurture, how to build, how to find the ensemble impulse in people. And he would just build semesters of the young students and sort of demonstrate that for for four months. And yeah, that's sort of been a foundational thing from that point forward. So I'm, I'm always ready to like chill for the O'Neil. Like, I love the, I love being,2 (33m 16s):Yeah. I actually live kind of near there. I live in Connecticut. Yeah. Oh, that's6 (33m 21s):Brilliant.2 (33m 21s):So you just made me think about something. Has any group of theater artists ever called the ensemble? Also the, the whole entire staff, like everybody on crew, because it is such a group effort. And we as act, this is one of the big things about, you know, going through an acting program, you just, and maybe it was just me, but you just think like, it's all about this. It's all about the actors and you just think everybody else is there supporting what you're doing.4 (33m 55s):Well,6 (33m 56s):It treats it like a technical term, right? It's like, it's a category. And rather than like, no, it's actually about an energy. It's about a trust. It's about something else. And I will say to answer your question like that w when I was a strong dog ensemble member, that that was one of the things I loved most about being on the straw dog ensemble was you had designers, you had managers, you had people like from every aspect of the creative process, sort of understood as part of the ensemble. It was all framed that way.4 (34m 24s):It's interesting. Like, I feel like what happens maybe is like, so take Steppenwolf because everyone talks about Steppenwolf as the original ensemble, which really you're right. A side note tends to mean in Chicago. And I can say this because I'm from there means that nobody is prettier or more famous than, than other actors. Like, that's what they mean by ensemble. Like that's how people talk about that. They're like, no, this is an ensemble piece. Meaning that even though you're really pretty, you're not going to be the star, like to someone, they never say that to me. You know what I mean? Okay. But anyway, side note, but ensembles. So when it's interesting, because it's like when a theater gets bigger, meaning a broader audience, more money, I feel like there becomes a really strong, clear delineation between technical staff and the actors.4 (35m 15s):And it comes, becomes compartmentalized probably because they have to run a freaking business with a multimillion dollar budget as we're like straw, dog. Like you can kind of stay it's like that storefront. It kind of, you can really get in there, which is how stepping will start it. So I think what we're talking about is the capitalization of the,6 (35m 33s):Oh, always, I mean, honestly, always all the time,4 (35m 37s):But yeah, but I'm, I'm curious about she and Gina, did you say2 (35m 42s):I did and I'm so sorry. I forgot to say Josh Sobell congratulations. Your surviving theater school. You're almost done4 (35m 49s):Art school theater school, you know, it's all the thing, but yeah. So I wanted to ask, I guess, take it back before I get on the runaway train of like, did you start out as a direct, like where you would act what's what was your path to the school of Cal arts? I guess6 (36m 7s):I've, I've been a director most of the time. I of course did a little bit of actually got rather late. Like I'm not one of those people who was like really involved in a lot of things when I was really, really little, but I had sort of a formative experience in high school as an audience member. My school was really remarkable. I, I unfortunately should catch up with them and see what they're doing in their theater department. But at the time, like we were a high school that was doing like Ian ESCO and Tom Stoppard and shit. Like, it was pretty cool. I assistant directed rhinoceros my senior year of high school, like Steve Rochester, New York, right in high school, shout out to Steve angle, Mr. Angle.6 (36m 47s):He was incredible. He also was the AP lit teacher and ran an incredible AP lit class. Like, oh my God, we, we read and watched just incredible stuff. And so actually his show, but he was one of the other directors there did chorus line and they did like an unedited chorus line in high school, which I also very much admired. And Paul's monologue hit me like eight when I don't know how familiar you are with, with the show. But like, you know, it's a classic Broadway, 1970s. It was sort of groundbreaking at the time because it was all real interviews of people who were all fighting chorus.6 (37m 27s):Of course, Paul Paul's monologue when he sort of finally breaks down and tells the story about his, his parents meeting him at the drag show in the back of, I lost it. Like I was a weeping mess. I don't know. And I had not had that particular experience before. And I walked out, I remember going home nerdy, like misfit fucking high school student hadn't found themselves yet and was like, I feel different. I don't know how I don't, I can't quantify it, but I feel like I am moving through the world differently than I was before I had that experience.6 (38m 8s):Wow. I want to do that. And that was, that was the moment. And so I started auditioning a little bit, but I always got interested in directing because I, it was the idea of like creating that holistic experience for an audience member, the way it was created for me. And so we also had, I think it was like an official partnership, like you could license with the 24 hour plays in New York. So my high did the 24 hour plays every year. And so I would stay overnight at the fucking school and, and do and direct. And that was sort of my first directing configuration. I was terrible. God. And my first few shows like first few shows at Oberlin were terrible.6 (38m 55s):Why, why? Oh my God, too, in my own head, I'm still too in my own head. It's the main thing I'm working on. I'm a very cerebral artist and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I just am seeking balance. That's part of the reason I went to Cal arts and Kellogg's was actually really the right choice for that in a lot of reasons to sort of break down some of my more cerebral and rigid habits. But I just didn't like, I, I was in my own way. It was that classic. Like it, my insecurity, I was second guessing. I was, it was actually Michael Cadman. It was the O'Neil. That was the turning point of that as well. So like I, anyways, I went through high school, got into it, went to Oberlin, was sort of jumping between theater and film got focused in theater because I liked the linearity of the process.6 (39m 40s):It just fit my brain better. You can really build the Dominos in order and watch them fall. And I love that from a process standpoint, joy. And so I went to the O'Neill and I was still like, I was overthinking and I was over like complicating and convoluting and Michael Cadman who I'm the final day of the program. I was like, you asshole, you couldn't have said this to me like weeks ago. I'm the final day of the program was like, you're very, very smart stop trying so hard to prove it.7 (40m 19s):Ah,6 (40m 20s):And that was, that was another game changing moment for me. And I, I started sort of stepping back and letting myself have more fun with it and just found myself sort of like what were my passion projects? What were the things that made me feel the way I did it, chorus line in a way. And my first show back in undergrad was a cabaret. And that was, that was a really huge, huge show for me. And I was very proud of that show and still have, like, I watched the video sometimes I was like, oh God, those transitions fucking suck. But, but yeah, directing, directing has always been sort of my thing because of that idea of like, I get to sort of, I don't know.6 (41m 4s):I, I, it's funny because so many people think about directing in this very hierarchical standpoint, right? Like they like the sort of like top-down, they get to sit at the head of the thing and create their vision. I challenged that constantly. And it's funny because people think by challenging that you give up the sort of directorial authority I call bullshit. I I'm interested in what I like to refer to as horizontal hierarchy. I say, I refer to it. I didn't invent the phrase, but like I've sort of taken it and I really love applying it to collaboration. I like the idea that as the director, I'm sort of sitting in the middle, I'm the same plane as everyone else surrounded by all of these brilliant fucking artists.6 (41m 48s):And I get to be like, Ooh, yes, it's a bit of that. It's not quite that. Can we bring it over there? I, yes, let's bring that in and pulling all of it towards the middle. And I still get to, by virtue of being in the center of a doll, just make decisions I get to make, be the arbiter of the quote, unquote vision or whatever you want to call it. But it's not that it breaks down the hierarchy in a way I'm not above anyone else that doesn't have to be my idea. It has to be the coolest idea. And so by sitting in the middle of it, I just get to sort of help tie the threads together in a way that feels like the audience experience we're going for. Like, that's my job to God.4 (42m 30s):Interesting. So it's so, oh yes. And I'm so curious as to why more directors don't do a horror. Is that, is it just an ego thing? A horizontal.6 (42m 47s):Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of like, I'm not even going to call it insecurity. Cause I actually think that doesn't do it justice and I think it's too easily dismissible. I think it's fear. I think there's a lot of fear. I mean, if I'm really Frank, I'm confronting it in certain areas of my program right now.4 (43m 25s):Okay. Wait, so you're saying that I just want to reiterate for my own brain because this happens all the time in all organizations across the board. So I'm really, and we're like, we were talking about it yesterday sort of. So, so you, you, you, there is an atmosphere of like, we want to make change, right.6 (43m 43s):Faded a stated goal,4 (43m 46s):Right? Not an atmosphere. Okay. So a stated goal, which a lot of theaters that I am familiar with and institutions are making these statements right now that the statement on paper or on the web or wherever it is saying, we want to take your feedback and make change. And it usually revolves around the word change. Like we're open to change. And if we're always, if we're honest, nobody's fucking open to change. We fucking,6 (44m 14s):And that's what we're talking about. It's the same fear to me. It's the same fear that you find in directing. It's a fear of some, some kind of loss of authority. It's a fear of some kind of loss of control. It's the fear of, I don't know. And it's so funny, like all of the ways you encounter it, because then yeah, you go and you actually say, here's the thing. And like I did this recently and I got yelled at, I got, and again, I've been, I've been working in Chicago theater for a decade before this. I don't give a shit. I was an artistic director, right. Like I was artistic director of Haven, Chicago. I don't like, this is, I don't need your ego. So I think it was actually kind of fun.6 (44m 56s):I think whether it's directing, whether it's artistic directors and institutional leadership, whether it's corporate leadership, whether it's, it's all of this, it's, it's, it's a full each year that, that somehow you're going to lose your Control.4 (45m 10s):This is so classic in, in terms of, so Gina and I were both therapists for years and look, and obviously we were children of parents. So I would go to my mom and say, this is the exact same thing. I would go to her and say, Hey mom, you're pretty abusive verbally. And she would say, but I'm the best mom. I know how to be. And at least you're not being beaten. Like I was beaten. And I'm like, okay. Yes, true. That all that is true. I, and you're still abusive to me. You're hurting me and sh and whether or not you want to make changes. That's the thing.4 (45m 50s):So we, we are literally reenacting parent child relationships in every walk of life. Like this sounds like a conversation a kid might have with their father where the father is like, well, I provide, we we're great.6 (46m 8s):And it's not about perfection. Like, it's not about like everyone and just like, we're all human beings. Right? Like I, I never wanted to feel like, and that's sometimes my problem with like, like I'm, I'm as left to center as you can get in a lot of ways, but it's like my one problem with sometimes a lot of left wing stuff is w where it's like, I think there is a purism that sometimes get, gets into it. And it's like, no, like we're all fucking human beings, right? If we believe in the ability to change and restorative justice and all of these things, then we have to actually believe that people can improve and get better. But it's like, there needs to be that honest interest in improving and getting better. There needs to be that genuine interest in it. And it's like, it's one of the things I was really proud of that we built it at Haven in Chicago with4 (46m 47s):Such a great theater. Gina Pavan is amazing. We're going to be there in the summer. So maybe we'll check it.6 (46m 53s):Ian Martin, like it's so funny. Cause it was such a, it was also a gift to really be able to do a transition process with Ian, you know, cause we really tried to be in, I've been part of some really unintentional transition processes. So like there were a lot of reasons where I really felt like Ian was exactly like, not, it wasn't even about sustaining what Haven had been doing. It was about how do we build and evolve on what Haven had been doing. And so Ian was sort of perfect. And we built the structure that you don't see very often where I, he was, yeah, he was my art, my associate artistic director for half the final season. And then we switched and he became artistic director and I was his associate artistic director for the other half of the season.6 (47m 36s):So he could have the responsibility and be in the decision-making position, but have the institutional memory sort of right at hand. And then it's like, and then I step away. So like I bring that up because there was an intentionality that we tried to bring to, like, we're going to be a theater company, let's be a theater company. Like you mentioned the business. Like let's, let's try to be a business, but let's try to be a next generation business.2 (48m 2s):And by the way, statements statements are to change as you know, sex is to relationships. Like it's a good start, but like you have to do more6 (48m 12s):Exact than just exactly.4 (48m 13s):So I guess the question is, what is it for me for me anyway? What is it in you, Josh? That is the kind of person because what is it? And there's a reckoning, obviously that I talk about a lot in, in terms of American theater and theater in general and the movie industry, the reckoning that's coming or in is, is that part of your drive right now to do this? Or it sounds like you've always been this sort of way, but why the fight? What, what, what about the fight?6 (48m 43s):Yeah, I think, I think, I think it's got it. That's such an interesting question because it's making me think in a chicken egg way, like is my ethics and my politics, like in here, like I don't know, the weirdest thing just came to mind and I'm going to follow that impulse.4 (48m 58s):Great.6 (48m 59s):Do it. And forgive me if I get a little bit emotional right now, it's it's my dad. If I'm really being honest, my dad is actually, he's not in the arts, but he's very artistic. He's a cellist. He's a musician. His odd actually, if you go to the Dem theater in Chicago, where Haven is the space that Haven exists in is the Bookspan theater specifically, the Janet Bookspan theater. Janet Bookspan is my aunt, his sister who was a major opera director, vocal coach, teacher, performer, actor assisted how prince back in the day, like holy4 (49m 40s):Shit.6 (49m 41s):Yeah. So like, and I have it on my mom's side as well, but my mom actually is an artist. She's a painter, but my dad, my dad is a radiation oncologist. He's a cancer physician, but music and art has always been a very big part of his life. His family, my life, he actually sidebar. Cause this is just a fun thing. And I hope this gets included. Cause I love bragging about this. My dad talk about politics and, and art colliding and art ed creative ethics. My dad has always been a big fan of Dr. Seuss's the snitches, this exists. You can go online. It's amazing. I'm so inspired by this. He was part of the Rochester academy of medicine and they have this amazing old building that has a roof.6 (50m 23s):That was basically, it's like a mansion that was donated and it's got this that was built for chamber music. And he developed relationships with the Rochester Philharmonic re developed friendships with musicians and created basically a chamber trio to play at the Rochester academy of medicine. And through this met a composer as Spanish composer, living in Berlin, named the Lorenzo. Palomo, who's pretty bright. His music is pretty outstanding and ended up commissioning a piece of music for this trio. And one thing led to another. And we found out that since my dad was young, he had believed that Dr.6 (51m 6s):Seuss is the snitches one. It was one of the most impactful, universal and effective lessons about acceptance and like anti-racism that you could find. And it was always his dream to have a piece of music, Allah, Peter, and the Wolf that was composed to be performed in tandem with a narration of Dr. Seuss's the snitches. So you can license this now on music theater international, because he did it. He commissioned Lorenzo to compose a piece of music for Dr. Seuss's the snitches. And we also by hooker by crooked premiered at my Alma mater at Oberlin and has since played around the country actually.6 (51m 52s):And I believe internationally. And, and it was all because he wanted to spread the message. It was because he wanted to use art to create an anti-racist piece of art. And the other cool thing is through a connection with his niece who ran the department of cultural affairs in Miami Dade county. She had a connection to John Delancey, who you might know as Q from star Trek, the next generation who did the original narration, the premiere. And so actually it's all on YouTube. You can hear John Delancey doing the speeches. And so like that's an aspect of my dad right there.6 (52m 33s):Another aspect was that I'll never forget this story. He actually built, he in Clifton Springs, New York built the cancer center, finger lakes, radiation oncology, because there, you know, there was a large elderly in particular community out there if I recall. And so, you know, as people are getting later in life, you know, biology happens and access to cancer treatment was non-existent except like 45 minutes or more at least minimum drive out of the way, if not hours out of the way. And especially as you're getting older, that becomes less and less sustainable for radiation treatments, for chemo treatments for all of these things.6 (53m 15s):So he found funding and worked his ass off as I, in some of my youngest days and built this cancer center from the ground up. And there was a day that I remember very distinctly hearing this story where as we've all been in any doctor's office, they were just running like, you know, three, four hours behind and sorry, I get emotional tug this story. It's so funny because it's like, that's, that's my true north in a way. You know, he, he sent his technicians out. This was back in the day when like Rent-A-Center was still a thing and blockbuster and shit, and like went out to get like sent them out to get like a television, sent them out to get a bunch of movies, sent them out to get like a sandwich platter and just showed up and basically were like, Hey, we're sorry.6 (54m 11s):We're we know we're running behind. We just want you to know, we haven't forgotten that you're here. You know? And like when does that happen at a doctor's office? Like when has that ever actually happened? Right. That's my,2 (54m 27s):Not for nothing, but my dad sold x-ray equipment. I've met a lot of radiation oncologists, and it's very unusual. Like there tends to be kind of a personality type with people who go into radar and it, it's not that what you're describing. So your dad must be a really remarkable person,6 (54m 45s):But yeah, no. And so I think it was a values thing. If we really want to talk about it, it's a values thing. It's, it's, it's a sense of how can we make this better? Like how can we be people first? How can we like again, we talk about Haven, right? One of the things I used to say, and I, and I would try, I tried to work hard to embody was like, oh, sorry, this does plug into our original conversations to bring it back perfectly on topic. One of my first shows I did in Chicago, I did a production of a play called xylophone west by Alex who's becoming a leg. Yeah. Alex is great. He's he's rising really well.6 (55m 26s):And like, we, he was actually, when I was the associate director of the summer Oneal program, he was a playwriting student when I was associate director. And that was our first. So it's cool. Just like, as we've sort of grown together, it's been amazing. And we did a reading of it and I, we have very strong opinions, especially because of the O'Neil being sort of a hub of new play development about what new play development is. There's a lot of bad, new play development. There's a lot of bad talk-backs, there's, there's a lot. And really it comes down to the difference between responsive feedback versus prescriptive feedback and how to cultivate that and understanding the difference.6 (56m 6s):And these, this artistic director did not understand this. And well, similar to what we're talking about, we were like, Hey, can we structure the talk back this way? Can we, this would really help Alex, Alex would say, this would really help me, like understand my play better. And artistic director's response was, I'll never forget this. Just remember who's the employer and who's the employee.4 (56m 34s):Right, right,6 (56m 35s):Right,4 (56m 35s):Right.6 (56m 36s):Case in point to everything we're talking about. And so like, I, it's sort of, when I think about like the sort of challenge to, sorry, I completely lost my train of thought.4 (56m 49s):No, no. What we're talking about is no, no, it's fine. It's when we're talking about a lot of things.6 (56m 53s):So4 (56m 54s):That's okay. What we're talking about is like this whole idea of like that your mentor wasn't your mentor anymore and why people don't want to change and the message versus what is actually happening in.6 (57m 6s):Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember why I specifically brought up xylophone west, but it was like this idea of, I don't know. I think about this, this, I owe my, my dad my values. Yeah. Value system. That's right. Thank you. I just needed to hear about, yeah. Yeah. It's a value system thing. It's like, that tells me what that person's value system is. Right. That tells me sort of the culture that they built. And for me as at Haven, sort of taking a note from my dad, right? Hey guys, that you're here. We see that you're here. The way I would phrase that as an artistic director was like, yes, you are our employees. Let's be like, it's not that, that isn't real. Like we are, you were signing a contract to work for us.6 (57m 49s):We have expectations based on their contract. You are also a guest in our home. And that is our responsibility. Like as leadership as a company, as an institution, as a director, like you are, you are a guest in our home. This is our home. We are responsible. Especially if we want to talk about mentorship in academia, some of us are paying $50,000 a year,4 (58m 14s):Right.6 (58m 15s):Be in your home. Like you have all of the control of this space. You can, you can make this, whatever you want it to be, and we're paying you to exist inside of it. And, and it becomes a question for me of how do you take that responsibility? Like what if, whether it's an academic responsibility of like, we are literally paying for the privilege of this, or in a professional standpoint where it's like, it's, it's a little bit in the reverse either way. It's like you are in the position of power. You are in the position where you can like build culture that I use, that I find that word comes up a lot. When I rant about this, which I rant about4 (58m 53s):Culture, building culture,6 (58m 54s):Building culture, whether it's academic, whether it's professional, like that's the responsibility. And if you don't take that as the responsibility it's so,4 (59m 3s):Okay. The, the, the other thing that I was going to say is you had a moment where, so I have these moments where I say to myself, usually not out loud, but you kind of almost said it out loud, but you didn't either. Which is I say, my mama did not come to this country as an and work her ass off for this shit. And your moment was, my dad did not build a fucking radiology oncology center and then get Rent-A-Center furniture and sandwiches for me to be doing this shit like that is that moment. Well, I think, well, that's what I heard there. Everyone has a line and a true north of like, wait, wait, my legacy is not going to be, this is not going to be not saying anything to you.6 (59m 47s):And legacy is, is something I think about sometimes, but it's like, it's not even about that per se. It's like, I see what it means to people. Right? And like, if, if we believe in our own bullshit, like, especially as artists, you know, because artists are, are at the forefront of talking a lot of shit about like empathy, right. About community, about humanity, about seeing each other about uplifting each other about making the world a better place. And it's like, well, that's all well and good. But like, are you like how? And it's not even just like, again, like there's so many ways to do it, but I think sometimes we take for granted the small ways of doing it.6 (1h 0m 29s):I think sometimes we take for granted the like, what if we just buy everyone dinner? What if we like make a concerted effort to pay people a little bit better? Like, what if we, what if we show our work in that? Like, what if we actually believe in the transparency that we add? Like so much, like we talk about transparency so much in our industry, like, or rather not in our industry, I should say like artists talk about transparency in the world, right? Like we want corporate transparency. We want more governmental transparency. What are some of the least transparent motherfuckers?2 (1h 1m 4s):Yeah. I feel like I know why that happens in theater too. It's because there's no money. So everybody goes into it with all of their, like very theoretical and ideological approaches. And when you get very cerebral, very theoretical, you forget about things like, oh yeah, people don't want to do 10 out of twelves anymore because it's, it's, it's too fatiguing. And it actually works against the thing that they're there to do, which is create a new each performance, like being able to offer something fresh each time. So it, it, that is actually an area in which it's helpful to think about theater as a business.2 (1h 1m 47s):Because if this, if you were running a seven 11 and you had an employee, you'd have to have a bathroom, like it's, you know, you just think about the pragmatic things more when you're thinking about it as a business.6 (1h 1m 57s):Right. And, and it's like, I, and for me, it's like a lot of these things are considered mutually exclusive for some, or they're treated as mutually exclusive, but like, you have to, it's like the business and the sort of like cultural, ethical side, somehow don't mix. And I just don't agree. I don't agree for a lot of reasons. I don't agree in part through the Haven experiment. You know, I it's like, look, we, we're still not making money. And we, we, I want to say we were very privileged to have particular financial support. I don't want to take that for granted that we were not starting in the same place as a lot of other people. And I, and I don't take that for granted. It's not a brag. It's like a, like the bootstrap Smith. Like I want to make sure that it's not like, you know, taken for granted, but it's also like, there's still this idea that people won't show up sometimes like that, like literally I've had other artistic directors talk to me about Haven work in Chicago being like, what are you sure there's an audience here.6 (1h 2m 53s):I'm like motherfuckers. We just sent like 15 people away at the door for Isaac Gomez, horror play. But no one else would produce like, like why, what are we it, and those decisions are made because of business, right? Because, because how are we going to sell it to Chris Jones? Because like, how are we going to, and I, I, we found time and time again, that there is an audience for this work that we were able to at times even make money on, like compared to what we, what our show to show budget work. We were able to make money back, like, and we were paying people, you know, it still stipends, you know, not what they're worth. I don't want to pretend we were ever able to pay people what they worth.6 (1h 3m 35s):But we were able to pay people, usually double the typical storefront stipend it's like, and, and still keep ourselves on a typical like budget that I was used to for other storefronts. So it's like, it's this question of like, why are these things treated as mutually exclusive on a bigger scale? Look at center theater group right now, an article just got written. I got to see slave play out here, which amazing production also Chicago, shout out. I got to see cause he's under studying. And I got to see him perform that night. Rashad hall. Brilliant, brilliant. And his2 (1h 4m 11s):Shot6 (1h 4m 11s):Is brilliant. Oh my God, his Phillip just broke my goddamn heart. Oh my God. He was so good. That's a show that is deeply controversial, deeply challenging queer by PAC sexual BDSM oriented, racist, racist, racist, or in terms of its its topic matter like racism in the United States. And historically, and today it's it's and they gave away like 5,000 or more like free and discounted tickets. And they still made money.2 (1h 4m 48s):Jeremy DOE he recently just put something up on social about this that he made. He made accessibility like the most important feature of his, you know, this play being produced and it worked and it worked better still made money on this scarcity model, which is, I mean, that's a lot of this just comes from the scarcity model, influencing how everybody feels. So constantly afraid of losing the one little sliver of the pie that they have that, you know, all they can think about is how to make that tiny little sliver. How to divvy it up instead of saying no, how can we get more pie people? We want more pie. We want to just keep getting our tiny little slivers we want, we, we want to add.2 (1h 5m 28s):So I'm mindful of the time because I know we're about 50 and we're going to be having to wrap up and I want to hear about it's your last semester and you're working on a project and you're going to have spring break next week. What is your, is it a thesis? Is that, is that,6 (1h 5m 43s):That, that was actually last semester. That last semester. Yeah. That's so that's done. I've I've kept myself a little bit busy. I don't know. I, I found myself strangely in spite of the pandemic lab, maybe because of the pandemic last year and now being back in in person and, and all of that. I just, and also I think because of like big was amazing and like my designers were incredible. The students here are unbelievable, but it was also because of some of the things I shared, like an exhausting process, excuse me. And so I sort of took a break and then got into the semester and for some reason just was like, I want to make shit. I want to be involved in making shit.6 (1h 6m 24s):I want to, I want to be involved in my own shit. I want to get involved in other people's shit. I just want to make shit. And so I'm like, I just finished up working on a collaboration with a doctoral student in the music school where we created a, I worked with a lighting designer and we worked collaboratively to create a light based sort of design journey, like a sort of light experience in conversation with the music called busking style in real time, as part of his doctoral thesis.2 (1h 6m 60s):Wait, you're saying it was busking like that the project was6 (1h 7m 4s):The, the style of, of calling the lighting. Was it wasn't like, it was sort of like, Yeah, it was a, yeah. So it was board op up in the booth watching and listening for particular moments. And the music was also highly improv. The reason is because the composition had moments of high improvisation. So there were moments where it was literally like just listening for certain things to shift the lighting responsibly to the music as it was happening. And it was just something I had never done before. So I'm like, let's try this out. And then I'm, I'm drama turking and assistant directing a play that an acting MFA student who's a dear, dear friend has written in his performing it.6 (1h 7m 48s):So I can be sort of the outside eye while she's on the inside of it. And then I might have another project cooking for right before graduation. I'm I'm figuring that out right now. And then I've also got things outside. I'm thrilled to say my partner is actually going to be going to USC for film school next year. So she and I are actually working collaboratively on a couple of things with another acting alum from, from Cal arts, actually a which I'll be able to share a little bit more, actually there's some stuff online with little like BTS stuff it's called goon and I'm actually really pumped about it. Yeah. I'm really, it's, it's, it's super fun, super quirky.6 (1h 8m 30s):We found a great cinematographer. Right. We shed who's just has an inspired eye. And so, yeah, just, I don't know, just finding myself in that moment of like, I think also out of frustration, maybe with Cal arts at times, like I just want to get with the students here and make some shifts. Let's just make some,2 (1h 8m 47s):I think your thing is you want to helm your own ship, always. You want to kind of be in charge of your own destiny and which is a very good, I mean, I see you're making a face about it, but I just, from my prime saying that's a very good quality to have. And it actually leads me to another question I was going to ask you, which is, are you, age-wise about there with your peers in this MFA6 (1h 9m 9s):And that's been interesting. Yeah. Older, older. Yeah. I'm in my mid thirties. And that has been a, an interesting difference of experience at times. Yeah.2 (1h 9m 19s):Yeah. Well, we've talked to a lot of MFA's who, because they were in their thirties, we're able to see the whole thing about school in a m
Intro: when you don't feel your best, do the thing anyway, Fake Famous, H&M is 40 shades of putty, Stitch Fix, Let Me Run This By You: Selfie vacations, Paul Stuart, rent a fake jet, Tevas, we are old enough to accidentally wear cool clothes. Interview: We talk to Mickey O'Sullivan about body image, sibling relationships, getting bullied, Illinois State University, The Wake, Henry Moore is Melting at The Athenaeum, addiction, Sophia Bush, Chicago PD, Casey Affleck.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina .3 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.2 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.3 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (35s):Isolation is a funny thing because it's both the thing that you feel drawn towards when you don't feel well. But it's also the thing that, you know, that makes it worse. And I saw another thing that said, the more comfortable you get with you and who you are, the less likely you're going to want to isolate because it does, you know, it it's effort to be who you are when you're, you know, not kind of sinked up. Yeah. That's all just to say that when my kids have their aches and pains and two of my kids are real vocal about every single sensation they ever have in their body at any given time. Like, I can't think of a time where these two leave the house where I haven't heard my foot hurts.2 (1m 20s):My shoulder hurts. I have a headache. My stomach hurts. It hurts when I do this. And I, I believe it all. And yet I'm like, yeah, but if you stay home, I'm not going to let you be on a screen. So you're just going to literally be staring at the wall, feeling that I wouldn't, you rather go to school. Right.1 (1m 38s):Interesting. But Gina, it has taken me to 46 to actually realize that. So they're like, literally like a year ago, I probably would've been like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay home. And like, I have a headache, but like now I realize like, oh no, I think it's also like, time is slipping by like, I'm getting older, we're marching towards death. Like I got to get outside2 (2m 3s):Dude. And1 (2m 4s):You know, so like, I, I think it takes some what it takes, but yeah, man, I know that this pandemic has created the sense that the outside world is dangerous because literally it was, so it is like a war in that we, I felt like we were in a war when, when this all started, it was two years ago this month. Right. So right. I came to visit and then all to you and then all hell broke loose. And it, yeah, it created this thing of like the danger is outside the home. And so now it's like so easy to, but I actually realize that I feel worse at home because not only then do I have a headache, I have to deal with my fucking dog.1 (2m 52s):Who's a pain in the ass and get triggered by my husband who I think should be doing his job differently. And I hear him because we're in a teeny house. So that's torture. That's worse.2 (3m 3s):That's terrible. That's no good. My corollary for that is just, I do spend all of my, I mean, I do my, everything I do is, is at my house. I take care of my house. I take care of my kids and then I write and, and work, work on, you know, artistic stuff when you're home and your office, maybe miles experiences this too. Like you don't, you're never not at work in a way. So you're, I gotta do some, I gotta do something to have more of a separation. Maybe I should just like, bro, did you, did you see what about Bob? When he, he worked from home, but he clocked in. I should know that.1 (3m 42s):Well, the other thing that I was thinking, so I, okay. I thought about this cause I was asked. Okay. So I, a friend of mine said, I have this free thing for stitch fix. Right. One of these bottles. Okay. Right. I've done those before I did DIA and co and whatever it lost, its luster, it's a waste of money. Eventually. It feels like, and it's ridiculous. Okay. But good, good news about stitch fix is that, or one of these services is that one. I love the jeans they sent me, but two, you have to leave the house to return the things you don't want or you pay for the things. Right. Okay. So that's a side benefit. And so that got me out of the house and three I'm wondering, I was like, oh, maybe I should send my code to Gina.1 (4m 26s):But then I'm like, Gina, doesn't like to shut up. Right. And Gina doesn't like, so they do the shopping, but you also don't strike me as someone who would want to dress up for our meetings.2 (4m 36s):Exactly. And I did stitch fix and did it for a while. And then I was like, well, what am I dress for? This is a big conundrum. I have just life in general. And we should tell our listeners that, you know, we're, we're contemplating recording, doing a video recorder recording of these podcasts, which will be great, but then it'll make me feel like I need to, but maybe, but maybe it's okay to feel that way. Maybe it would be actually really good for my mental health to be like, I have to get dressed for my day.1 (5m 8s):I think it helps me. I mean, look, I'm literally wearing a tank top and a bra, but like2 (5m 14s):No, that's huge. Yeah,1 (5m 15s):Yeah, yeah. Right. No, and pants without an elastic ways. So like, I think it helps me in that. And some days it's just a pain in the ass, but it also helps me to think that, yeah, at least I'm trying in some area of my life, which we're all trying in all areas, but I'm just saying it's a visual representation of the fact that like, oh, I'm trying, the other thing about coworking that I like is I get to see other people's outfits. And sometimes they're really cute. Sometimes they're fucking horrible. Like it there's a lot of like 20 year olds that are here at co-working because are 20, 25. I'm a little old. So I like age everyone down, but like a 25 year olds that cause you can rent big offices here too.1 (5m 59s):Like for companies like marketing companies. So I see the fashions of the 20 five-year-olds and I'm like, whoa, you are opening my eyes to a whole hell scape of fashion that I did not know existed.2 (6m 14s):It's all so bad. It's all so bad. By the way, before I forget the, the getting dressed is, is this the reason to do it as the same reason to make your bed every morning? Like you don't have to sure. But doing it creates a nice demarcation that you're not always just, you know, in this miasma of like doing the same, same thing. But yeah. Getting back to the fashions of it's all terrible. And I just watched this documentary called fake famous. You might really like it it's is actually so fascinating. It's a, some guy who, I'm not sure if he's a journalist or whatever, but he speaks all of the time on news programs about social media.2 (7m 2s):Like that's just his area of expertise. So he says the social experiment where he, they have a casting call where the casting call says, I'm asking for people who want to be famous. So they get 4,000 submissions1 (7m 18s):And it's is it called the theater school?2 (7m 20s):Yeah, no, it's not going to theater school. And of course, you know, they paid these people to do it inverse of what we did and they pick these three people who wants to be famous. And he was, he set out to use his knowledge of social media to make them famous, artificially famous. And it was so interesting. It's a, it's something, it's a culture that I knew about. Like, but I'm not, I don't participate in influencer culture. Right. And I don't know if you saw this thing, I posted that 40 million people in the world have a million or more followers, like really puts things in perspective.2 (8m 5s):You know? And, and, and it was also talking about how the algorithm shapes itself. So like I'm also reading this book about Alex Jones and conspiracy theories. And you know, he will say on his show, he'll say a lie. And then he'll say Google it, because he's got millions of listeners and millions of listeners Googling something. Right. Makes it, shapes it into something. Right.1 (8m 35s):It makes it true. Makes it true. You can literally an impact the truth. It's gross. But it's also, it's like literally how for me, yeah. It's like how Hitler got to power, right? There was no Google, but it is the same. Like if you believe it, it will be so on some level. And if 40 million people believe it, it will really be so on some level. Yes.2 (8m 58s):And if they tell us that earth tones and no patterns and no structure to garments looks good, eventually will believe it. And they probably are doing it because there's a glut of earth, tone fabric, and people are trying to write, but I haven't seen something that I would consider a cute outfit on a person under, or maybe even anybody, but in years, like going to the mall, I don't say, Ooh, this is great street1 (9m 29s):Snapper.2 (9m 30s):It's all just looks gross.1 (9m 33s):I went to, so I walked down my street to get to coworking and there's an H and M there. And I, and also when my niece was here, we went to H and M because they love that shit. And I, I was like, literally, this is all 40 shades of putty. Like honey, 40 shades of putty. I said, and she goes, what's potty. And I go, it's this color? 40 shades of putty is my new memoir. And it's all about this color scheme they've got going on. Right? Like it is literally Putney. The putty that came in, the eggs that we used to play with silly putty or whatever, the fuck,2 (10m 9s):Petty wood glue,1 (10m 12s):Like coffee2 (10m 13s):Grounds call,1 (10m 19s):Let me run this by you.2 (10m 27s):So one of the places, I guess that Instagram is a very popular Instagram spot, by the way, people do whole vacations that are just centered around where to have their picture made. And like, not even thinking about the vacation itself, like people come to LA. Yes. Ma'am people come to LA, let's say they had this one story on their two girls from there might have been from Russia. Now that I'm thinking of it came, you know, spent $2,000 or whatever on their ticket to come to LA. And it was literally just touring these selfie spots. One of them is the Paul Stewart building. There's a big pink, it's a Paul Stewart it's fashion design.2 (11m 9s):And it was just like, his store is the, it's a huge, huge, huge pink wall. Oh. And this is where people at any time of day, you could drive by it. And you're going to see people taking selfies there because it's an Instagram spot. Oh. So people come to LA by the droves with a list of selfie spots.1 (11m 33s):This is like fucking Pokemon people situation.2 (11m 37s):Okay. Like by dying because you're being pokey while you're driving. Yeah, exactly.1 (11m 42s):Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.2 (11m 43s):So I guess you don't see too much of this.1 (11m 45s):No, not, especially not in Pasadena. I can't2 (11m 48s):Imagine1 (11m 50s):Fucking suburb dude. And, and, and I would also, oh, but I did see, okay. So miles surfs. Right? And we, while he's a new surfer, I shouldn't, it's not like Kelly Slater or whatever the fuck. Anyway, the point is we went to a surf lesson once and I fucking kid, you not, there was a guy who I believe was speaking Russian on the phone at the Santa Monica parking lot at 7:00 AM beach parking lot with his Mercedes that was rented clearly with a camera on a fucking tripod, taking selfies at 7:00 AM with a rented Mercedes in a crazy outfit there when he was doing and, and, and me and miles and I, and, and, and the surf teacher, who's fucking hilarious.1 (12m 41s):Who's this stoner comedian named Jared, who is hilarious, was like, yeah, yeah, dude, this is, this is, this is it, man. This is how they do it. They like stop traffic. And, and I didn't know what he was talking about, but now that you're saying it, this is what this guy was doing. And I, he was on the bash Dudley doing it. So like, there was no embarrassment. I was like, what the fuck? And music was playing. It was videos too. Like Instagram videos, reels or something. He's fucking, he was playing rap music, which was the best thing about the whole thing was the music. But he, it was raw. And he was crouching down, like by the car, in an outfit at 7:00 AM.1 (13m 21s):And Doris was, I was with the dog of the dog was like, even the dog was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like what?2 (13m 28s):I never bring my personal. I was like, just taking a selfie. I have to do it usually with one of my kids. And even then it feels it's something about it feels wrong. And did you know that you can rent the space that looks like the interior of a private jet for $50 an hour so that you could take pictures and make it look like you are traveling,1 (13m 58s):Which is like my nightmare, because I'm afraid to fly. I'd go to, I'd be in hell, but okay.2 (14m 2s):Oh, you can rent a mansion for $600 in a day and have, you know, these Instagrammers, they get together like four or five looks and they rent out a mansion and they pose themselves in these ridiculous things. And then they, because they post, they have to post four times a day in order to stay relevant and to get brands that want to get a sponsor them or whatever. So they are just constantly going around looking for content. And then the pandemic happened. And I think that really gave rise to like renting these spaces because they couldn't actually go on these vacations and so forth.2 (14m 43s):Isn't that wild. It's just1 (14m 45s):Craziest shit I've ever, I'm going to watch this documentary. I M it is again, I know why you find it interesting too, is because it really reminds me of Adam McKay's work. Like what is happening? It's so meta. It's like, what? Wait a minute, wait, what is happening?2 (15m 7s):Well, ironically, I think one of the things that's happening is whereas, you know, initially the feeling about the internet, it was just made everything opened up, right. And that's still true to, to a large degree, but on another way, everybody's life is just about their phone. You know, your life takes place on this tiny little screen and, and to be in a group of people under, I mean, maybe not even that maybe just to be in a group of people is to see like 80% of them at any given moment staring at their phone, wherever they are out in the world. Right. They, one of the scenes in the movie is they, some company hires a bunch of influencers.2 (15m 51s):It's a junket, essentially. Like they take them to these selfie spots, including a abandoned water park. That's like a, that's like a great place to take salaries. They get this crew of girls and they just take them to these various spots to model this ugly, putty, colored clothing, and then get paid for brand, you know, for hashtagging the brand. And there, I was just like so depressed. I felt sick after watching that Pressing right. There was one guy who did not, he decided that actually of the three people, they picked, two of them quit during the experiment, because one of them was getting comments from his real cause the guy was buying them followers.2 (16m 38s):That's what he was doing. He bought them followers, which are all of these bots. And did you know that like people like Kim Kardashians who have whatever millions and millions it's estimated this 60% of their followers are bots. Yeppers. Yep. Yep. Yep. So I guess1 (17m 1s):I can't, I can't even process what's going on here today. Like, I, I, you, you can't people can't see what they will. Once we start recording these bad boys, the video, I like looked down at my fucking TIVA sandal. Okay. My Tivas okay. By the way, by the way I was wearing, I bought Tivas because my feet are fucked up. Right. And I had to wear, I got, I have two shoes now I can really wear, which are Hocus. And then Tivas alright, terrible. Sarah will situations. But anyway, I'm wearing black Tivas sandals that I wore literally wore in eighth grade. And then I have a fucking LL bean like throw back at, or is it an Adirondack2 (17m 45s):And1 (17m 47s):Adirondacks a chair. Right. But okay. And it has like kind of nineties, throwback colors, not on purpose. I just liked it. And I bought it has a hood. I fucking wearing that. Some jeans and my Tivas and I look like I'm going to summer camp. Right. And I'm in the coworking and these young, these young ladies go, oh my God, we'd love your throwback nineties outfit. Literally. They said that. And I was like, Oh my God, I, oh my God, I didn't ha I didn't know what was going on. And I was like, oh my God, the one there. Right. I literally looked like I was going to camp echo, which was the camp I went to the Y camp.1 (18m 30s):And I also was like, it's also kind of hideous. And yet these youngsters are thinking I'm doing it. Ironically.2 (18m 38s):Let's, let's give up.1 (18m 44s):Let's just give up. Let's kill ourselves.2 (18m 47s):Let's wave the white flag. I tried Lord. Oh Lord.1 (18m 53s):I mean, I, I couldn't understand what's going on. And I looked down and I was like, oh my God, they're so right. And I just smiled. And I was like, are they2 (19m 1s):Literally Chivas from eighth grade? Like, you literally still have your same. No,1 (19m 4s):I bought Because my feet hurt. I need sandals that are literally, it's so sad. It's so sad. And I was sitting at coworking and they walked by and they said that I looked down and I was like, I, I did, I did feel Gina. Like I just, I gave up2 (19m 23s):Trying to give up. Now we're all set.0 (19m 28s):Well2 (19m 39s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Mickey O'Sullivan. Mickey O'Sullivan is a Chicago actor. You know him, you know him from the shy and from Chicago PD and athletes. So many television shows. I couldn't possibly mention them all here as well as theater and commercials. And he is a related and relatable, insightful, funny, warm, talented person. So please enjoy our conversation with Mickey O'Sullivan1 (20m 15s):I'm talking about right now, filling her age. I don't know. It's great. It's great. It's in a good way. You will see that my internet was in and out. It's just,2 (20m 24s):Yeah. Are you close to your router or1 (20m 27s):Even know where the router is? So there we5 (20m 29s):Go. What's the router.2 (20m 33s):Good point. Make you good. Bye. Nice flex there with your Peloton in the background.5 (20m 39s):Oh yeah. Check that out. Just like slid it over. I've got it on one of those lazy Susan's right now. This is my current look. And it just,1 (20m 48s):Do you have another lip?5 (20m 52s):Who's a lazy Susan on the table and you know how you got to kind of prop up your, your laptop. So,1 (20m 57s):Oh, I thought you had the Peloton on a fucking lazy Susan. I was like Next level.2 (21m 4s):I was adding a whole new dimension to that workout, which is already very difficult.1 (21m 8s):I was just feeling Gina and about the things, which is interesting that you popped on. So I can tell, I can say it in front of you and make you really embarrassed. So in a good way. So I was just saying, and we'll, we'll, we'll start with the official Gina opening, even though you left theater school still the same opening applies. So say it,2 (21m 27s):Congratulations. Mikio Sullivan, you survived theater school. Hey, Mickey, serve a cookie.1 (21m 35s):You deserve a cookie and all sorts of things and free therapy. And Yeah, so we all need that. But I was just saying that one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, and we'll just dive right in and see Gina and I talked before our guests. So we're like warmed up about like psychological issues. Other people are like, what are you talking about? Like, why are you starting here? But here's how I have to start, because this is what I've realized lately. You're the only male identifying person that I've ever talked to. That talks about body image.2 (22m 8s):Oh,1 (22m 10s):I had never had a conversation where casually come up in conversation, your history of your relationship with your body as, as you from a kid to an adult, no one ever taught male, identifying person has ever talked about that with me and eight, I, it opened my eyes to like, oh shit, oh shit, men have body image issues. I did. It didn't even occur to me. So that's where I want to start. Good morning to you.5 (22m 40s):No, I'm also kind of jealous, right? So I listened to your podcast and you do you get like a real ramp up. And so this morning I was like, you know what? I need this a little bit. So I, you know, I drove the wife to work. I have a wife, I would say the word wife, which is really exciting. Thank you. And I'm also a chauffeur, which I love being. I like to be of service. I'm driving her there and I'm trying to have conversation to like warm up, you know? And she is so focused on work.2 (23m 12s):She's like, yeah. Anyway.1 (23m 17s):Yeah. She's like, that's all good. I didn't listen to the last 10 minutes. You said? Yeah. I mean, so I I'm glad that you, that was nice of you to do a ramp up, but no need, but, but, but also, can you talk a little bit about, and then we'll leave that that'll probably lead into acting stuff too, obviously in schooling, but like, what was your experience? Because you've talked about that. Like, I guess my first question would be like, what are the thoughts when I bring that up about a dude talking about body image,5 (23m 49s):To me, it makes total sense. And I'm also kind of shocked that more people don't talk about this. I mean, growing up, right. Like, yeah, kids are cruel for sure. But like, it's kind of very insidious the way that guys can be cruel to other guys. And also this idea that like, in order to be attractive to whoever I'm, whoever I'm like crushing on, like starting from a real young age is I better look like these people. And when we were growing up, those people were athletes. Right. It was never like Neil deGrasse Tyson. Right? Like it was never like these like really super intense or if it was, it was like bill gates or something.5 (24m 31s):And I don't know, like there was, there's this disconnect between masculinity and like being okay with your, your body and your body image and the way that you give off your image to other person, people so much. So to this day, I still struggle with it on a daily basis for a little while there, I was like, you know what? I think I understand the key to Hollywood success and that's the six pack and the really fucked up part was that the more, the closer I got to that goal, the better my career got. And I don't think that the two are linked. I don't think so. But I think that like, being, having to think that as somebody who's, who understands the industry pretty well and who has kind of had highs and lows in their career, if I'm thinking that then what is, you know, the version of 15 year old Makey, who's like, oh, I wonder what being an actor is like thinking.5 (25m 27s):And so that starts super young, but I was also stop me if you have questions, but I'm going to go on like a tangent here. Sure. So very young right. Actor on a baby soap opera before image is even a thing, right? Like before you have any concept of that, you give off your image to other people. I don't remember any of it, obviously. Right. And then parents separated. I come to Chicago, dad stays in New York, me and my brother growing up. My brother is always super thin, super smart. And I am always not super thin and not super smart. And so there's this kind of competitiveness that's going on right there.5 (26m 11s):But in order to fit in my brother developed a real good sense of humor at new school, very young. And I didn't, I was, I, I struggled to acclimate to like a new environment. And I guess, I don't know necessarily that I, I think that I wanted to tell myself that I had an eating problem growing up, but I don't know that that's true. I don't think I understood food or my body or energy really well because later on I started getting into athletics probably out of this complex.5 (26m 50s):Right. But I started using food for fuel and that kind of started my journey towards like understanding my body and understanding of what goes in there. But as a kid, it was like, if it's in the cupboard, I'm going to eat it. And I am a very energetic person. And so I attached myself to like food, energy, just keep going. But then when you're getting made fun of on a daily basis, energy emotions take like a lot of energy to process. And so I would come home and I would be in tears from, you know, being, they call me Shabaka my brother's name is Danica.5 (27m 30s):And they like, you know, the, the terrible people that our children. So I was always known as like, what is the one thing that is different between you and your brother? Well, you're fat and you're not. And, and yeah, like going into the career, it's awful.1 (27m 51s):But wait, I have a question. Was your family, I always wonder this because my family was not supportive. So, so I was bullied at school and I was also bullied at home. Were you bullied by your brother and your mom or no,5 (28m 8s):For sure. My brother, like, we were awful to one another, the fact that we have a relationship now and like a really good one is, is mind blowing. But yeah, we were awful each other. My mom, not so much, my mom always struggled with her body image and her weight and her reflection of herself. And I think still does to this day, like I remember like some of the conversations before our wedding was like, for both her and I like, you know, gotta start to trim up for the way, you know? So, so yeah. I don't know if I was bullied at home as much. I was, it was definitely a safe space for me coming home in that regard.5 (28m 50s):But my brother around his friends, it would increase a bit. And then of course that's like a role model to all of my friends or whatever. And then I just started hanging out with people who like, probably weren't the best for me because they weren't making fun of me. They weren't the best for me because of,1 (29m 10s):I mean, I think that it's like, we go, I'll speak for myself. I went, you go where the teasing stops. Right. Whoever's not, the love is great. And the love5 (29m 22s):Has an absence of love.1 (29m 24s):Right. I see. I always say like, I didn't necessarily want to be not if once I realized I was just going to keep being bullied, I then just wanted to be left alone. So whoever would leave me alone, if not mention it became my friend, even those people were fricking had troubles of their own. I mean, like were troubled, at least they weren't picking on me. Right. So it's like you start settling for more and more, less and less love. And like, you just want to disappear. I mean, that's what happened.5 (29m 56s):Do you think that that led to you being an artist in the sense that you started focusing more on self through isolation? Do you know what I mean?1 (30m 5s):Great question. I started. Yeah. I think that what happened was it led to my brain and heart madly trying to figure out why this was happening to me. Why was reading, being treated this way by school and at home and what I could do that was safe. And the only thing to do that was safe was make believe and create in a world where, yeah, where it wasn't about the way I looked because you know, but then you mix2 (30m 37s):Except until it totally was1 (30m 41s):When you then go to a theater school. So there you go.5 (30m 44s):Yeah. Yeah. Super weird to how that kind of comes into the mix. Right.2 (30m 50s):So I, I'm being quiet as you're talking Mickey because you're describing a dynamic that is happening in my house right now with my two sons and, and you're, so you're the, you're the grown up version. I'm really happy to hear you have a good relationship with your brother, because this is like one of my biggest fears. I had such a terrible relationship with my sister and my sons are on their way to, you know, how it seems to me is they're on their way to having that type of relationship. And maybe it's the thing about, you know, because kids are like, prof, I forget sometimes how much they have to take on at any given day.2 (31m 30s):Maybe even 90% of it at school is social. And only 10% of it is academic, but that's, that is so much that just, just like information processing and it has to happen in your body. So if you're having a hard time with it and then you're having, you know, body image issues on top of it, it's, it's all, it just seems like impossible to survive high school, you know? Like how does anybody survive high school, let alone theater school,5 (31m 60s):But oh,2 (32m 2s):No. The 15 and 13.5 (32m 4s):So part of the pandemic was they were being judged on this while they're going through like fuck and hormones and brutal. I could not imagine2 (32m 16s):Completely, completely brutal. And that's a whole other thing about education and the pandemic and how like we'll never get it back. Like, you know, it's just, there's just last years basically. But anyway. So when did you start getting into acting? When did you decide that that was something you wanted to pursue?5 (32m 34s):All right. So like alone, personally, like walking home from school, right. That, that mind was already there. Like my entire life. I was like, I'll be an actor. Not that I wanted to, but like, oh, that seems like, like I was the liar growing up. I was the storyteller I told the fucking biggest bibs in the world. And so I think like in my mind, but then it was like, oh, I'm very distractable. And I, this is how I knew I wanted to be an actor. Was that like one day that, wow, I could be a doctor. I could be a firefighter. Oh my gosh, garbage man. Why not? Right. And then the idea, like, I'd maybe like work on that for like a day.5 (33m 17s):And then the next day I'd be like, oh, I'm so interested in this. And I think later on, I was like, oh, you can go. It's a really cool way to learn about all sorts of these little things. It was just kind of like spin the wheel of roulette, acting, you know, go out for tons of commercials. You get to play a handyman for a day. And for me, like, I personally loved the pretend of like, oh, I wonder what a handyman stays like.1 (33m 41s):Yeah. That's what I remember about you is like a super curious kid, like super curious and maybe like that's part of the artist's brain too, is like, you were always curious, curious, curious, curious a hundred times curious. So what, okay, so you were like, that was your thought as you're walking home and then how did that translate into like being in a play or auditioning for shit? Or like how does that work or going to school? Yeah,5 (34m 7s):Definitely thought, right. Like funny person was my option in terms of getting out of like the social anxiety. And so my mom got me involved in a play, I think in like sixth grade, but it was outside of my social circle. It was like, we were on like the Southwest suburbs and this was way in the south suburbs. And so I didn't know anybody there only relationship to me was this thing. I played a skunk in a Winnie, the Pooh play. And then I proceeded to like rip my pants and fart in my own peace scene. So That helped the whole shitty body image to thing. Cause right.5 (34m 47s):Cause who splits their pants.2 (34m 50s):Right. Miley Cyrus actually. I mean, anybody can start therapy6 (34m 56s):It's me and my2 (34m 58s):Okay. But when it was time to pick college and you were looking around, did you look at a variety of theater programs or conservatories?5 (35m 8s):No. I don't think that I admitted to myself at that point that those was like a valid career option. So my senior year of high school, I had this like real stint in hockey where like I thought that that could be a career path for me. And then that was ended through like a variety of like injuries and you know, like personal stuff. And so then it was like I had a theater professor pulled me aside and was like, Hey, not professor, but high school teacher, special ed teacher who then ran the drama program was like, Hey, maybe you should consider doing this with your free time. Instead of just like smoking pot and smoking hookah and like driving around with your newfound free time.5 (35m 51s):And I was like, oh, maybe that's a good idea. So I did like beauty and the beast high school as like, you know, this like a side character kind of like not in the limelight. And then later on did a Shakespeare comedians, LR where we just totally ripped off of the American conservatory theater's production from, we like copied it, move by move and called it acting. And then we won state for that, which is kind of backwards, you know, like we won state for copying and production. So I definitely thought it was good, but I didn't think that I was any good at like creating my own versions of characters or anything. So I knew I had to apply to a school.5 (36m 32s):I had no idea what I was going to apply to. That seemed to be what I was good at. So I did a double major and special education and, and theater because I didn't think that a, my parents would approve of me being fully theater student. And then B I felt like maybe it was either a selfish career path or yeah, not like, I think I wanted something more noble maybe. And I had experience working summer camps for special Olympics and stuff like that growing up. So I was like, oh, that's a, that's an interesting thing. So then when I got to Illinois state university, they were one of the schools that accepted me.5 (37m 15s):I had no concept of what a theater school should be, none whatsoever. And a lot of the other people were like, oh, I did four years of drama and four years of forensics. And in the summers, I go away to theater camp and I was like, I played hockey. And so I didn't fit in again. Right. Which was fine because I learned how to be by myself. And so I started making all of my social circles outside of the theater department for the most part. And I think in a way that kind of helped me, like I practice my monologues in front of my buddy, Greg, who I think Greg does like computer science and you would just go, I think that was good. You know, it really became self self reflection.5 (37m 59s):And the weird part is like, I would go in and I, I really did become the, the, one of the golden children of my department. I was an asshole. Yeah. So a hundred percent I was cast in a li almost immediately. And2 (38m 18s):It does not surprise me because this is what always happens. Like the, the men who go into drama don't tend towards the masculine. Right. So then when they get somebody who's like, I played hockey that, I mean, you know, that happened in my high school. That1 (38m 35s):Happened our theater school too.5 (38m 37s):I think it's backwards too though. Cause you the more in touch with my feminine, oh, I hate that word. But like, you know, like this idea that like there's a masculine, the more I got in touch with myself and with art, I felt the better I did. Right. I still think that to this day, like the more I'm receptive to my own emotions and the emotions of those around me, the better I'm able to handle my career.1 (39m 4s):Yeah. It just sounds like the, the, the bind that we're all in, which is people want you to be a certain way. But when you actually invest in being another way, it's going to make you a better person than artists, but nobody really wants that, but they say they want it. So men are in a bind. I guess what I'm saying is like, you're the first male guest that we've had on that I've known. And I know the struggles that you've been through and it, it opened my eyes to theater school for men straight men specifically are men that identify as straight, whatever. It's a, it's a bind for you too. It's a bind for you. So I guess, what did you love about theater school and what were you like? I'm outta here.1 (39m 46s):That's my question.5 (39m 48s):Yeah. And those are all awesome points. Like it continues. The body image thing continues all throughout college. And I do grow closer to myself through that. But I think the thing that I loved about it is that I had that opportunity for the first time in my life. Like hockey was definitely an obsession for me. I tend to gravitate towards obsessing. And so to get into theater school, I didn't take any gen EDS. I like, I, I forgot my degree. I failed out of school. And finally, because I just, I wasn't interested in anything except for learning all of the theater that I think at some point I looked at somebody I MDB and I was like, oh, they were, you know, working for 15 years before they had their big, big, big break right there before they were discovered.5 (40m 36s):And so I was like, oh, I have a lot of catching up to do. Right. I didn't do this until my, until I was 18. Now it's time to catch up. So I just started like taking only theater classes. And then the idea that you can sit or lay on the ground in a dark room, surrounded by your peers and think about what shape your body is making and what noises are coming out to me. That was super interesting to me. I got lost in that world. And I still think to this day, like my brother is a finance guy and he he'll never know what it's like to just weep behind a mask because you saw something a certain way one day. And so for me, that was a celebrated thing.5 (41m 18s):It was like, congratulations, you, you cried behind the mask. I don't know. It's still is kind of a bizarre thing to like to reflect on. But my, my presentation skills got better at, than my social emotional skills got better. I was spending every night in a rehearsal space getting to know how to best work with people and how to make mistakes, like going back. I love college. I don't like the results of college. I don't like the way that it was kind of organized. People were cut after certain years. It was very dramatic. But theater school for me was, I mean, what a dream, right? Like I got to wake up, put on a leotard and go stretch for two hours and then go into a voice class.5 (42m 1s):Talk about my feelings towards words, study history.1 (42m 8s):I wish I could, I want to go. What if I apply where they, that's a horrible idea. I do this all the time, by the way. But like, it sounds so great when you guys, when you say it, I'm like, wait, I was wasted. I wasted my time there. I wasted my time.5 (42m 26s):I don't know though. Right. Like I think I've spent the rest of my career being like, okay, so what can I take from that? Because that's not the real world. The real world is not that you get to wake up and do that. But like, certainly I've recently gotten back into like stretching and mourning, like yoga in the mornings and stuff. And I'm like, oh, that was something that really works for you back then. Where did that go? And so, right. Like creating my own schedule. I think also I got, I was supposed to get a, B S and not a BFA. So I think I definitely missed some of the, I had more rigidity in my schedule that I think some of my peers and that made me resist the regular general education stuff and spend more time.5 (43m 16s):Like I committed to every directing project that somebody was doing. Right. Like they're in a class. And I was like, I'll do it. When they were like, bring one monologue to class. I was like, well, I'll take up the whole class and bring 10. I was super selfish about theater classes as well. Like if nobody else wanted to go, it was like, well, what are we doing here? I'll go.1 (43m 37s):Wow.5 (43m 38s):So I S I experienced a ton. Right. I was looking through, I, I was like reflecting the other day and I don't understand how I did all of that in four years or four and a half years or whatever, because I probably did at least 10 projects a year. And then I stayed during the summers and did community theater, like a playwrights festival there as well. And so I was just constantly going, but a weird body image thing. Right. So freshmen, what are the freshmen 15? I put on like the freshmen 45 drinking a lot. Right. Partying, a lot, eating food from the food Corp,1 (44m 18s):Chicken fingers, chicken fingers, fingers.5 (44m 22s):So much cheese.1 (44m 25s):Yeah.5 (44m 25s):And then I played my first like bigger role was Toby belching 12th night. So, so, oh, you have extra, you are bigger than other people. Now you're going to play the funny role, right. The drunkard, the, this or that. And I don't know what came too, but I think somebody made a body image comment in my final assessment that year. And regardless of whether that was a positive or negative thing, I committed that summer to not being what they thought I was. Right. I was like, I'm not just this1 (45m 6s):Comment. Do you remember the comment?5 (45m 7s):I don't remember. I just know that there was a catalyst, right. Something happened in that last little meeting where either what was said, or what was not said was not what I wanted to write. And so I was like, I have, I have a fucking chip on my shoulder. I love to prove people wrong. It's like a weird obsession thing as well, prove myself wrong. And so I, I went and I went running and I went back to this like, athlete, like, oh, this is how I preserve myself. And maybe if my feelings were hurt, right. Like I can focus all of that into this.5 (45m 47s):And I lost, like, I lost a lot of weight very quickly. And then that next, you know, I was the romantic leading man, the next fall In Philadelphia for the story. And to the point where like, this is how little I understood. They're like, you're doing the Philadelphia story. Will you come in and read for like the dad role? And I was like, okay. And I was like, oh, this is the dad role. It's a musical, obviously in my brain. And it's not, yeah. It's not, it's, it's Carrie gray Audrey. But I was like, I didn't read the play. I had no idea.5 (46m 27s):And then they cast me as like the leading romantically, not Carrie Grant's character. And I was like, oh no, this is a terrible idea. They don't know that. I can't say6 (46m 43s):I showed up to them like ready to like, 2 (46m 50s):Mickey. Would it be fair to say that, like, you've had to figure, I mean, a lot of people come to acting as a way to figure themselves out. Right? Like a lot of people like the idea of trying on roles. Cause that's what they're also doing with their own identity. And I do see like a little bit of a trend where a lot of people who do it for that reason, maybe didn't get enough reflected back to them when they were a kid or they got reflected only these negative things like you're describing about getting bullied. So, I mean, would it be fair to say that it's taken you oh, a long time to get to know who you really are?2 (47m 31s):Are you still in a process of figuring that out? Like, did you, how much, or how little did you know yourself when you were at theater school?5 (47m 41s):Yeah, totally fair to say. I didn't, I didn't really know myself. I definitely was enjoying the process of getting to know myself, but I didn't really have an understanding of like why I was the way I was. I, and I am definitely still in the process of trying to figure that out. I think I did a play right when I left school called, called awake. And it was about a young man. Who's a poet who's who thought his father was a poet and turns out there was, it was his brother. Like my, my father's brother was my actual father.5 (48m 22s):And it was just like, I don't know myself. I need to go figure out who I am. And that really resonated with me. It was like this idea that like sometimes what we feel is just the, the anxiety or the poles that we feel is just us going while I thought I would have known myself more by now. And so, yeah, definitely still trying to figure it out. My process, creative process. I mean, like that's constantly in flux, never the same. And that's like hockey stuff too. The reason I liked hockey was you could run a set play, and it's always going to be different every single time.5 (49m 4s):And the idea of theater, right? Like you, you get up every night and you do it. And like something about the way that your day went will be reflected in your performance. And, and so that's interesting to me. Yeah.1 (49m 23s):Interesting. I never got that. I never, I never knew that that acting was about me. Do you know what I mean? Like I never got that note. Like that message. I missed that whole thing that like, I could bring my whole self to a role. It doesn't mean that it's me. Like, but that I was allowed to bring my whole self to the role. And in fact, if I did, my acting would be better. Like I miss so much, I'm just so bombed, but I'm learning it. I'm learning it from, from listening to people like you on the podcast and talking with them like, oh, I'm helping to, to, when I teach now, I'm like, bring you, you're helping me.1 (50m 7s):The other thing I want to say is that when I saw you Mickey in my first time seeing you in a lead role or any role was at the greenhouse, I dunno, Athen am in Henry Morris, melting this, play it. And I'd never seen Mickey act. And someone was like, I have my own problems. Like, why am I going? I went to this5 (50m 36s):That's great advice. Yeah.1 (50m 40s):Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I give you terrible advice. I was like, go to LA, you're going to be famous. But like, yeah. Well, anyway, so I saw this play. I saw you in the play and I was like, this is one of the best actors I've ever seen in my life. I, I, I was blown away. I thought, oh, this kid knows what the fuck he's doing. And commits 125% on stage, which is, it just was miles ahead of what everyone else was doing onstage, but not in a real snarky way, in a real working man sort of a way so that you don't hate Mickey because you're like, oh, this is a good person.1 (51m 26s):They just really are committed to what the fuck they're doing. I had never seen that from an actor your age, because we're2 (51m 34s):Obsessed.1 (51m 37s):And I was like,5 (51m 38s):Oh,1 (51m 39s):This kid is the real deal. Like I,5 (51m 43s):That maybe I was avoiding My work. I was avoiding all of the other things that were sitting outside of that. Right. That like were valuable pieces of insight that I could have learned about myself. But like, I, at that point, Jen, like I was moving to LA because I did not have a home. Right. Like it was a warmer climate. Like I had no money to my name whatsoever. I struggled with addiction. I right. Like I had all of these personal life crises going on, but theater is a place where you can go for two hours, whether you're seeing it or whether you're in it and totally just purposefully forget everything else.5 (52m 26s):And so I put off a lot of like personal growth until probably like 30 years old, at least like real is true. Like this might work for you, but it is destructive. I put off that work because I was like, oh, it serves me. Right? Like it's, it gives me energy to put into my career. It is going to better knees somehow to hurt.2 (52m 49s):How do you, how, how does the casting world see you? Like who are you as an actor?5 (52m 56s):That's a good question. I wish I knew. I think I'm, I think I play intense characters that I played, blue collar characters, definitely people with an emotional depth, like an intense, emotional depth. I have, I'm starting to play the good guy. All of a sudden, which is interesting. I like playing the best friend role. And I think I kind of look at every role as the best role, you know, I am there to do something.8 (53m 32s):Yeah. Right.1 (53m 37s):Which is why they want you for the leading man role. Look, this is, it makes perfect sense to me from an outside. I'm like, they want you, so you are finally what I'm hearing too is like, you're finally what you said is like starting to do the work on yourself, right? Like as a person, as a human, as a father, as a, as a, as a husband, as all the things. Right? So it makes perfect sense that you are now playing the good guy. And also that you now are wanted by people to play the lead. Even though you want to play the best friend and you play leads to, I'm not saying you don't want to play the lead, but it, it just all makes sense.1 (54m 18s):It all makes sense that when you work on yourself, if, and if you're lucky and all the things that You5 (54m 24s):End up your1 (54m 24s):Career advancing when you do the work on5 (54m 27s):Yourself1 (54m 28s):Internally, but5 (54m 30s):Then you can decide whether or not things are working. And that's like the, the small business perspective, right? Like you open a small business on the corner, your first year, you're, you're looking at like high expenses, right? Like expense your entire store. You're going to be in the red for a while. Second year, you maybe are developing a customer client relationship. Third year, maybe you have a personal crisis and things take a step back fourth year, whatever fifth year, by the time the fifth year goes, you go, I have some solid data to work with. Right? Maybe this network isn't working for me and I need to go to a different network. And I S I subverted a lot of bad advice. I didn't listen to any of it.5 (55m 10s):I went from New York back to Bloomington, normal Illinois to try to get my degree and failing out again, because I did too much theater up to Minnesota, Chicago, California, Colorado, back to Chicago, and about three years, four years. Yeah. And so then I got back to Chicago and I was like, oh, this is what it's like, when you stay in a place for a little while, maybe people have a chance to respond to the postcards that you're sending up.2 (55m 40s):Yeah. And what's that whole thing, like now, since I've been out of it for so long triangle, when you're first starting out and trying to get people to know you, you said you still send them postcards with your, with your headshot on one side or something.5 (55m 54s):Snail mail, baby headshots. Right. I would print go to Kinko's or FedEx or whatever. I've had tons of headshots, tons of resumes, tons of cover letters. And I'd send them to everybody which maybe is what I'm learning. Now. Thankfully, I have representation. I've had representation for a really long time. Is that like, maybe be targeted with the people that you want to work with and focus on that rather than like, will anybody like me please will anybody, But maybe I had a better, I I've never thought about this. I submitted to two agencies or one agency that called me, and it was a really big name in Chicago.5 (56m 39s):And they called me in and they kept calling me Maki, like, Hey, Maki, come here. And then they were like, yeah, my name is Mickey. Sorry. That was the thing that they call me,1 (56m 59s):Excuse me.5 (57m 1s):And I was like, well,1 (57m 2s):That's the greatest fucking name I've ever heard of. I mean, it's not your name, but it's a great name. Yeah.5 (57m 8s):They brought me into the room and they're like, okay, give us your monologue. But look at the wall. They're so spot on the wall, look at it. So I did the whole thing and they were like, how are you expecting to have a good relationship with casting? If you just stare while you talk the entire time. And I was like, oh, I thought you said, like stare at the wall and talk. And they were like, you know what I think, like with your look and your experience, we could do a trial contract. And I was like, maybe finally at that point, did I have the guts in my life to be like, I don't need just anyone to be my friend or to work with me.2 (57m 48s):Maki need somebody who can really connect with5 (57m 51s):It knows my name, you know, that read the email. And then sure enough, I, I reached out to somebody who I knew was an agent and I had a meeting with them and I was like, Hey, is that how all of them should go? Because if it is, I'll just take the contract and I'll work in the industry and whatever. But if it's not, I'm not going to sign with somebody who's a Dick. Who's like too overwhelmed to actually build new relationships. Let me go and focus on somebody who like, wants to have a conversation about what I think of the industry and my place in that.2 (58m 23s):Oh, it makes me sick to think about how many people who are in those positions of power. It's, that's all they're interested in is the sort of the power play of it all. Like this thing that we start doing when we're kids and for some people we don't ever outgrow it, which is like, I don't need you. You need me, you know, the way that I show my, you know, whatever that ability in the world is to reject you instead of, you know, to be inclusive or, or even just, I mean, just a kind thing, because by the way, nobody has, is named Maki. So they should have had a sense of like, wait, why are we saying this? Right. I mean, right.2 (59m 3s):Shouldn't they have had some idea that5 (59m 6s):I do. Like, maybe I'm a sucker and lately I've been trying to think of like, what are all of the reasons that people could act like that? Because I don't get it right. Like, I don't get like, the I'm going to go brag to people about how I treated this person, like shit. And I, I think maybe it like it, it is just a really deep, deep, personal thing that's going on. That's totally clouding. Then being aware of how they're treating other people at all. Because I don't, I it's gotta be because I don't, I I've never heard anybody brag to me about how they treated somebody like shit in my entire life. I know that that's a thing that generally, as humans, we feel deep shame about and how maybe that deep shame manifests is just constantly being so focused on, on you and the things that you have to do and, you know, maintaining your own personal level of success and survival.5 (59m 59s):It's this fucked up survival tactic of like nobody else matters only what I'm doing matters. Maybe. I dunno. Maybe I'm just a sucker.1 (1h 0m 8s):No, I think it's, I think you're right. Like I think people get so caught up in their own process. They don't even know some people do, but I think that's like the exceptional sociopath psychopath, but like most people are just like low level nurses. We're all such low level narcissists mixed with our childhood trauma. We don't even realize what we're doing. I swear because I have confronted people, you know, that I've, I've confronted big wigs and said, do you realize that you're talking like this person is a piece of shit and they're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh my God, most people don't understand.2 (1h 0m 50s):And most people are so far from understanding that the, that the farthest they'll ever get with that is just a defensive will know you're the asshole for pointing out. Right. I mean, that's, that's, that's usually the limit. It never ceases to amaze me. And yet it always amazes me. No, that's the same thing. how with, you know, my, the thing I'm always interested is getting from surface to depth with people. But I think like maybe 98% of the population is just really interested in staying or maybe it's just because of where I'm living. I don't know. But I, I find that not only do people not want to go from surface to depth, they're frightened and weirded out by you wanting to do that.2 (1h 1m 35s):You know what I mean? Because my thing is always like, we all know that the weather is how it is. Like, can we just like, let's skip that part. Let's go to the next thing. And people don't like that. They really don't like that.1 (1h 1m 47s):No people are not interested in that because what they have to, I am convinced that at the, at the core of that is, oh, one day I'm going to die and everyone I know is going to die.2 (1h 1m 59s):And1 (1h 1m 59s):If we talk about real, if we talk about real stuff, it'll inevitably lead me to, oh my God, everyone I love is going to die and I'm going to die. And I can't handle that. So I'm going to do drugs or do anything else instead, or not, or talk about the,5 (1h 2m 13s):Not the talking about the weather, but that's where I'm at right now is that I'm like, oh, the most important thing that we could do now is acknowledged the back that we're going to die2 (1h 2m 23s):Because it's so much freedom by the way, because it's not like, sorry to spoiler alert, but everybody is going to die. So like let's instead of being, spending your entire life afraid of that thing, embrace it because you're not going to die right now necessarily, you know, like you could make right now more interesting, right.5 (1h 2m 43s):Enjoy right now. Right. In a way1 (1h 2m 46s):Even noticed right now, just notice that we're actually alive. And I, and that we are here now doing things, talking, eating, all the things that we do it's happening. I think that that's what I've come to in this podcast. And in my life is like if the most I ever get to is, oh, this is actually happening. I'm here. This is going on. How I feel about it as how I feel about it, but this is what's going on. Acknowledging them. That's going to have to be enough because to go deep with people is such a treat and so rare. But like, I have to still stay true to the acknowledging part.1 (1h 3m 28s):Like, oh, you, you might be uncomfortable, but I'm going to acknowledge in my own way that, that, that we're all going to die in. And that's part of the impermanence. I'm going to acknowledge it to myself because if I don't, it just really leads to2 (1h 3m 40s):You just feel so isolated and desperate and yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, speaking of isolated and desperate and alone, you mentioned going through some issues with addiction. How, how do you, could you say anything about that and how you, how you got ahead of it?5 (1h 4m 0s):Yeah. Never out of it, right? Like I am an addict through and through, right? Like it's anything that make me feel better and then like learning what those good things are and what leads to right. This path of destruction. I think really early on, I was constantly the kid that was if he only put his mind towards things, but I think if you only focused on those thing, and so that got me on this idea of like, whatever it is, and this is where obsession came in, right. Like if I could just focus on stuff and then I would dive 110%. And so what were the things that allowed me to do that?5 (1h 4m 41s):Right? Like first it was, you know, cigarettes, right? Like I could just sit there and read a play and read another play and smoke cigarettes, I guess. Right. Like definitely alcohol is in there. It's not like my primary. I, I do not go into functioning or nonfunctioning relationships where this, where I'm like, oh, I need this to function. Or I need this not to be totally dysfunctional. But early in my life, it was definitely a medicine of some sort. Right. Like I was definitely looking at it for relief. I drank a lot and drank, it was binge. Like, that was the way that we drank in high school and college.5 (1h 5m 23s):You had three hours to drink. You better drink a lot of it. Right.9 (1h 5m 27s):So true.5 (1h 5m 30s):So that was a thing. And then Adderall became a thing for me where it was like, this is something that allowed me to sit and work for hours on end. And certainly I think that, like, if I'm going to go to a psychiatrist, they would be like, I think you definitely have some traits that are right there with add or ADHD, but I did it. And so I would just abuse on my own. Right. Like, and I, I looked at it as the investment opportunity of a lifetime. Right. It was like, you're going to constantly have this on you. You're going to constantly be taking it. You're going to constantly be working. And that led to cigarettes. Right. That led to me avoiding all of my own personal shit.5 (1h 6m 13s):And then, right. Like the way I quote unquote got out of the throws of it was total collapse2 (1h 6m 24s):All the way to the bottom5 (1h 6m 26s):All the way. Right. Many times where I thought that I was going to die. Right. That I thought I was like, I would not sleep at night and a very functioning. Right. Nobody, nobody knew at least that I know of. Right. Like, I'm sure, like now looking back like, oh, something's going on there? Like, but it was a whole production for me. Right. Like I had the hand sanitizer to stop my hands from smelling like smoke. Right. So nobody needed to know that, like that was my preparation to get myself right. For, you know, the audition. And then it was, you know, I've got gum, I've got Gatorade to keep my body, like all of the, the electrolytes in my body up because I haven't slept in two days, I've got like coffee.5 (1h 7m 17s):And so like financially fell apart. Right. And no good reason. Right. Like best point in my career probably was like, you know, commercial money coming in, episodic money coming in. And for me, this was just like, great. Double-down on my investment. Great. Like be better, be better. And in my version of better was more, more altered, I guess. So never out of it and re emotionally my relationships fell apart. Right. I stopped paying attention to what other people, how other people were reacting around me.5 (1h 7m 58s):And that kind of led into acting, I guess, a little bit that like, it wasn't maybe until like five years ago. And Jen, this is where I'm a little bit jealous of you. Is that like, I did think that what you said earlier was like, I never considered myself, like the main part of gen actor being so valuable to whatever character I'm playing. I never considered that, the shit that I was trying in rehearsal, like just like a kid in a box, like had real time attacks on the other actors that I'm working with.1 (1h 8m 31s):I never considered that either. Like, but you're right. Like, it goes both ways, right.5 (1h 8m 37s):If you're in a, if you're in a meeting with a coworker at an office and they never focused on one idea long enough for everyone to kind of like gel with the idea, you don't work with that person for very long, even if what they're doing is an abusive or hurtful or anything like that, it's just not conducive to like, right. Especially for theater, where in Chicago, right? Like you get $300 for an eight week stipend. And so you better really get everybody read it better, really be getting something out of that rehearsal time. And I was selfish, you know, like this is about me and my journey and my character and, and everybody else better fight for that.5 (1h 9m 17s):And there's, and that's what conflict is. And that's what drama is.2 (1h 9m 22s):Well, what are your feelings about that? The stories that we hear about famous actors who do that, who still do that, that's still their process. Does it make you mad?5 (1h 9m 31s):Yeah, I think it's so misguided. Right. And I'm thankful that I've had enough experiences where I'm like, oh, you're, you were kind of the Dick there that could be bad. That could develop. Right. Or somebody who pulled me aside and was like, you know, that just wasn't necessary or whatever, really, really early on, I moved to New York and I was in a play festival. And it was like about what is that? The witch who they shove into the oven, what was that called? The Hansel Hansel and Gretel. I was Honsel I guess. And we were pushing the witch into the fire and they were like, yeah, you used a broom and we didn't have a broom.5 (1h 10m 17s):And so like fresh out of college, Mickey was like here, hand on the butt. And afterwards this woman came up to me and she was like, don't do that ever again. And I was like, oh my God, what did I do? I have no idea. I'm so sorry. And at first I was really kind of like, come on, like, what are we going to do? Like you needed to get it. So it was my first time being like, oh wow. And she was older than I was. And so to me that told me that she's been hurt in this process and that through whatever trauma that she's been through, like this is not the, the road to working with other people.5 (1h 11m 2s):Right. And so there's just like little moments like that, that I think if you're so blind you're so like, I need to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. It's really easy to just that everybody is being1 (1h 11m 16s):Right. Right. It's like, that's5 (1h 11m 19s):Like1 (1h 11m 20s):This whole reckoning, this whole reckoning that the arts and humanity and the U S and everyone is doing, which is like, that may be true. You said something really important to me, which is, it may be true that people are overly sensitive. You didn't say this part, but I, I think people can be, oh, I can be overly sensitive. That's for fucking shirt. And it's also true that that is not the way to working with others. So like, both are true. Like I have sensitive issues. And you notice that like, doing that kind of behavior is actually not conducive to doing good art and creating and not, and getting jobs, the whole thing.1 (1h 12m 2s):So like, it's interesting. It's like you took the note and actually took it. Whether you took it all in or whatever, you took the note, but a lot of these dudes aren't taking the note. They're not getting the note. They're seeing it as the people are over sensitive, which they might be, but they're also not taking the note, like take the note, you know,5 (1h 12m 21s):I take the note. Absolutely. That's something like in college that we were constantly reminded. It's like, you don't have to respond. Just take it, write it down and think about it for a, for an eye and then com
Intro: Boz did not invent timezones, JetBlue, Gina makes an embarrassing mistake, Boz has to run her own job interview. Let Me Run This By You: The world is coming to an end so do we still have to do yoga and stuff? Feminist Body Horror, Bros in Hollywood, Vincent Kartheiser, there's a FIGHT AT CO-WORKING!! Interview: We talk to Dave Deveau about being a child actor, Are You Afraid of the Dark, D.J. McHale, the way we stigmatize the bodies of actors (incl. child actors), York University, the Toronto drag scene, Peach Cobblah, Zee Zee Theatre Company, and Carousel Theatre For Young People.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How you doing? What's going on? Oh my God. I have a similar, I have a similar situation going, whatever that look was. Yeah, you go first. You go first. Okay girl. So, you know, I'm hustling, hustling, trying to get a job. And yesterday, so weird.1 (49s):I yesterday we finally miles and I finally figured out like, maybe I should just work at his company because there are good anyway, lovely people, whatever. So I just submit my resume and a cover letter for a job that I, that is supposedly open, write a great cover letter. Cause that's what I Excel at. I mean, anything else goes to shit, but I can really do a cover letter. So no, but so I sent it and then I get this call. Okay. So then I'm going to see in the car, our friend, Erica, our good friend, Erica. So I'm going to see her and we're going to take a walk and talk about this possible documentary. You know that you and I want to make whatever.1 (1m 30s):So I get five Ms. Calls from Miami and I'm like, what? I know no one in Miami, like Miami is like a place. I know no one. So I'm like, well, I'm not going to pick up. And finally I'm in, I'm in the drive through of the Starbucks and I make it a habit of not talking on the phone while I'm picking up my drink. So I'm like someone I'm like thinking someone's in trouble. You know? Like that's where I go. I'm like someone's in jail or my knee is whatever. So it's this woman. And she, you can tell, you know, like English is not her first language. That's fine. Like English is barely my first language anyways. So I'm talking, she's like, hi, we have an interview for you today at this company.1 (2m 11s):You know the company. And I'm like, oh, okay, well she's like, can you do it at 3:00 PM Eastern time? And I'm like 3:00 PM Eastern time to one to one that's that's noon. Right? Yeah. Noon. I, sorry. I had to do the thing. That's what you were saying. Oh no, no, no. It's noon. And I'm like any it's 1140 at the time or yeah, it's 1140 LA time. And I'm like, okay. So, so in 20 minutes she goes, no 3:00 PM. And I said, okay, just send me the invite. I'll cancel. So I canceled with Erica and then I'm waiting on the invite. And then I get the, I rushed back to put, throw some lipstick on and rush back to coworking to do the interview.1 (2m 57s):And I have like a, an invite from her that 5:00 PM LA time. Okay. So then I'm like, okay. So then I call this person and I'm like, Hey person. And then it is a comedy of mother. This is just like a tip of the iceberg of my day. Yesterday of motherfucking errors. She goes, no 3:00 PM. Your time is 5:00 PM. It became it. And then it was, it was so insane. And I'm like, listen, lady, am I supposed to jump on a call in five minutes? Do I click this in five?1 (3m 37s):Like at this point I'm shouting. I don't know what to do. And she's like, no, you're not letting me speak. I said, okay, go ahead. And she proceeds to say, I'm looking, I don't know what, she doesn't know that my husband works for the company. She goes, I'm looking at my boss's calendar and we have you. And then she starts talking about mountain time and I'm like, lady mountain time is an hour let later. And then she didn't understand. So I literally Gina, Gina, this is what I said I am. So I didn't know what else to do. It was like talking to a drunk, right. Or a person out of control or a crazy like, like I said, listen, ma'am ma'am I don't, I don't invent or make time zone.1 (4m 26s):I didn't know how else to. I said they are a thing that I cannot change. And she goes, what? And they said, here's the thing, like what you're saying? Is it actually making any it's not working? And I go, I don't, I didn't invent time zones. It's a real thing. And she just was quiet. And I said, okay. And I had her boss's email and I'm the kind of bad bitch now where I'm like, I'm just going to cut out. I can't do this. So I just don't have it in me. I'm old. And I'm, I'm just, I know my shit. So I'm like, thank you so much for your help. I got to go. And then I just emailed her boss and was like, listen, your assistant. And I are like having an epic comedy of errors, like time zone, garbage fire.1 (5m 12s):What do you want me to do? And she goes, oh, she wrote back and said, no, no, it's, it's one 30 your time, two 30 mountain time. And the other person on the call is in New York. It just, this is the working remotely different times, zones, English being a problem. And also like, I think that it's so interesting. I think the assistant was trying to be assertive and like hold boundaries and thought, I didn't understand that we actually had a fundamental problem about like math. Right, right, right. So then, and then this, and then I said, okay, so I got that settled. I said, I'm going to jump on this call in an hour then.1 (5m 54s):Yes. Okay. Then I get a call from the assistant again. And like, hi, she goes, I am so sorry. And I said, you know what it is. Okay. She goes, I, I said, don't even worry about it. I just, I couldn't. I literally said like, Gina, I couldn't take it anymore. Ma'am I had, I had to, I had to do something else.2 (6m 16s):Yeah. Yeah. I had to stop. It had though, we were just like Susan powder. We had to stop the insanity. It was just getting out of control. I had a similar comedy of errors with jet blue. Okay. Which is to say, go going back about, no, not even a month. Like actually it was only two and a half weeks ago. You know, we had this plan thing where Aaron was gonna take the boys to Utah and I was taking precedent for them. And I had a feeling that he never booked the tickets, but I didn't, I didn't put that fee.2 (6m 57s):It was one of those things. I didn't put it in the front of my brain. So we're sitting around and I go, what time do you leave on Saturday? He says, oh, I gotta look at my email. So he's looking, I could see the panic is going over his face. And long story short, he, he didn't book the tickets. And so I, I said I would do it, but the jet blue website was having a problem. So I would go, I would get everything all teed up. And then when I tried to book it, it would say there was a problem. Correct. So I did that four times.1 (7m 27s):They charged you four times. So2 (7m 28s):They charged my credit card. I mean like $15,000.1 (7m 36s):Yeah, sure, sure.2 (7m 38s):And so when the first time we called the guy, I said, oh, don't worry. The charges will fall off. Okay. And some of them did, the three big ones did, did fall off. But now it's, you know, it was a few weeks later and not all of them had fallen off. So I called JetBlue. And of course, whenever you call any company, the first thing they do is say, we are so grateful. You called, please don't call us. Please email us, please go to our website. Please talk door robot. So I did, I exchange, I started here. It was nice of me. And I, I agreed to be in line on a text.2 (8m 19s):So they were going to contact me when it was time to start texting with this person. So I'm getting notified. 45 minutes later, Helena is available to text me. So Helena and I are back and forth.1 (8m 32s):Hell2 (8m 34s):Yes. And she, it quickly, she quickly realizes that this is not, this is above her pay grade and I'm going to have to speak to a supervisor. So she tells me to call 1-800-JET-BLUE. And I said, well, Helena, we have a problem here because I did call when 800 jet blue. And it told me to text you, instead of calling, she says, no, you call this number. And, and, and that's a customer service I said, but your customer service. Yeah. But I can't help you. And we're just having this weird back and forth until, until finally I get a thing on the text that says, hello, this is Helena.2 (9m 16s):How can I help you? And I said, is this, I wrote back, is this a robot or a person I could get back? I am a person. Okay. Are you the Helena who couldn't help1 (9m 30s):God?2 (9m 31s):Or are you Helen or the supervisor? No answer. Are you both named Helena? It was so crazy. Anyway. So it's like1 (9m 40s):A fucking movie, right?2 (9m 42s):Solved. It got resolved. And then yesterday I see, I go up on my credit card and I see that they've been recharged. So I called Jack Lou. I wait on hold for one hour.1 (9m 60s):Sure. Oh, I ex2 (10m 2s):Calmly explain to the lady. And she, she asked me, does it, does, does the credit card show like a ticket number? I said, it just says American airlines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I went, it's American airlines, not jet blue. I'm sorry.1 (10m 26s):Oh my2 (10m 29s):And her response was like, girl, I feel you like that is just what is happening in this world.1 (10m 37s):We are.2 (10m 37s):So like, I know every generation says the world is going to end, but in our case we really have a good case for beating out every1 (10m 48s):Yeah. Like it is. I have noticed. So like then yes, she and Gina, that is like a perfect thing of why the world is going to end. It's just because we're all, we're all doing that. And then, so I get on the interview with these two people and I'm not gonna, you know, bad mouth, a perspective employer. I will say they looked so whooped in not their fault. I'm not saying ugly. I'm not, but like they have been through it, like through it, sweatshirts, akimbo, like China,2 (11m 25s):You're wearing a sweatshirt habits, a Kimbo that's bad. Right.1 (11m 29s):It's a thing is a Kimbo. And the t-shirt under it's akimbo. And like, there's like half drawings of kids' stuff on the back wall. Like everything. I'm like, oh, wow, wow. I'm like presented. But I got like lipstick on I look and I'm like, oh, whoa, everyone needs a lot of help right now.2 (11m 49s):Yes.1 (11m 49s):Like a lot of help.2 (11m 52s):So how'd the interview go?1 (11m 53s):I a blast. I was like, okay, here's what you get when you get me, these are all my experiences. If there's a way to make it fit in your organization. Great. If not, maybe not like I that's how I said that.2 (12m 9s):I love that that's so wise.1 (12m 12s):'cause I, I have so much different shit in my background. And also I'm open to things. And also at the core of who I am is I want to work with people who are kind, but also efficient who are, have their shit together, but also are compassionate. And the kind of work is actually less important than that. And the pay rate.2 (12m 37s):Well, that's all true. But what I, what I feel so impressed by is that inherent in that was a decision not to do what you've probably always done in the past and what I certainly have exclusively done, which is, let me see what the need is. And then let me just contort myself to be, to meet their need, which never works like at like, no matter how many times it didn't work, I stood. That's still the approach that I took.1 (13m 2s):That's our manifesto link. That's the whole thing. And our manifesto it's like trying to fit into something. But here's the other thing, like literally when they started talking about the actual job, it was so vague. I, I, I don't, I didn't know what was going on. They were using terminology and like, part of it is that I don't know that world like comms, a lot of comms talk communication,2 (13m 27s):Vacations. Okay. What will you say the name of the company, but what does, what do they do?1 (13m 33s):It's like a tech company that like, but they're all over the world. It was started as a startup and just went public. They have a lot of good people, but like, I don't know their lingo. Right. So even if I knew the lingo, it was as if, I don't know. I dunno. I was just like, okay, so you, your description of actually what I'm doing on this call is so vague that I actually have to take over,2 (13m 57s):Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Communications was being thrown around a little1 (14m 3s):Calm,2 (14m 4s):This entire story. So far is just rife with terrible communication with this time zone thing and what they're communicating to you by wearing the Kimbo sweatshirts and that they can't communicate to you about what, what the job is or what they're1 (14m 19s):Doing and understand what Insane. And so, and also I think they do, they have a tremendous amount of clients and partners in the Ukraine, so that they're like, and they're doing really a lot of work to try to keep their workers safe. Obviously. I mean, it's not altruistic I'm they need worker, you know what I mean? But, but they're also really helping, but they just literally had looked like they'd been through a war. I was like, w2 (14m 45s):W1 (14m 45s):Wow. So basically I was like, okay, well, I need to take over this interview if there's going to be any kind of, any kind of anything. I mean, and so I just pitched myself. I mean, that's what I do all day, every day in Hollywood. So like, I it's a good at it. And it also doesn't fucking scare me. Like I, what is scary to me is auditioning. Sure. Callbacks. Yeah. Being on set horrified, but like talking to people in a meeting, what have I got to lose? I've done it 4,720 times. And also tangible things have not come out of it, but it doesn't. So it's not as though I've had a bad experience.1 (15m 27s):It's just like, I've had the experiences where like, I haven't seen the flowers yet of the seeds I've planted, so I'm not traumatized by it. I'm just sorta like, whatever. It's like, I'm at coworking anyway. So I can do this. I could do a general with you guys, you know, with you too. I will. Did they seem to feel reassured by quality to take over the okay. That's good. Yeah. And I, I didn't like say like, okay, I wasn't like, I didn't go whole hog, like crazy. Like, what's wrong with you? People, I guess I have to run this interview. It's more like, okay, well, I'm going to just do silence. Right. A lot of sense. And they looked at each other, like I, one just grabbed the other, I think, to come on the call, nobody knew it was happening.1 (16m 12s):It was when I said to the assistant, Hey, can we do this Friday afternoon too? No, they really want you on today. Today. It has to be. And I was like, really? Are you sure you're talking to the right person? They don't know what do they need me on today for? I don't know what's happening. So it was just an interesting, it's an interesting time, Gina. It's like a crazy fucking time. Let me run this by you. I'm really struggling with his life.1 (16m 53s):The world is ending. Do I really need to keep refreshing our download numbers on my web browser? Do I really need to like start doing yoga? I just feel like the world, but then there's this thing like you're describing it's humanity. That's the thing that always comes through in the end. I have to say, life finds a fucking way. Life runs away as garbage as people are, particularly men. I'm sorry to say, but it's true. Like men ruin everything as garbage as people are. There's also, and I guess as landscaping being a great example of a good exception, a good man, there's always people there who are ready to turn it around and do the right thing and make the better choices and, you know, Medicaid people who are out of control and their decision making.1 (17m 40s):We have to take comfort in that. Yeah. I mean, I, there is comfort. I think that it is. Yeah. And it reminds me of like this sort of Adam McKay stuff of like, I mean, I haven't seen all of don't look up, but like, you know, I think through art, there's gotta be a way to, to like help in some way. Like I was just, I I'm thinking about like, yeah. Humor, humor, helping. The other thing that I have stumbled upon is I think, okay. So I wrote, I have a friend, a guy friend from Chicago, who's a director and he moved to LA and he's hilarious.1 (18m 23s):And he's like me married to someone, not in the business. He's like a normal guy. Right. And so he's, he's like, he wants to direct horror. He's a commercial director, but he wants to do horror. And he's like, do you have a horror film? I'm like, well, no, I don't have a show. He wants to strike to horror short. But then I wrote this piece called the weight of breath about my body. Right. And, and he's like, oh, this is body horror. And I was like, what? It is a whole new genre, feminist fucking body horror where it's a genre. And I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. So it is like,2 (18m 57s):That's very much was in your piece that you wrote, explain it to me more than,1 (19m 1s):Okay. So I didn't know it existed. So this, it all kind of coincided. So I talked to this guy, Justin, who I adore and I said, and I said, well, I could send you the only short, short I have. That's written that I wrote for a submission and didn't get anywhere. Sure. I'll send it to you. Whatever. It's about a woman who is covered in Spanx, can't breathe, get broken up with grabs a huge pair of scissors and starts hacking away at her at her Spanx. And then you think she might kill him. And then he leaves, okay. By a fat lady that, that like has a breakup kind of anyway, he's like, oh, you're like one step away from her. And that she just needs to, it's the way we'll shoot it. And she'll hurt herself a little bit while she's, you'll see blood.1 (19m 44s):And also the Spanx metal we'll dig into her body and you'll see like a puncture. So that is body horror. And I was like, oh, I'm all in. And the, and the impetus for that short was I was on set. I don't know if I ever talked about this. I was on set. I was cast in something as a nurse. And I had S and the, and the costumer said, you're going to wear Spanx right in under my2 (20m 12s):Scrubs. Yeah.1 (20m 13s):I was like, okay. So I bought this special pair of Spanx that I did not try on before I got to set that had metal, ribbing, metal, ribbing too small, but now I'm in them and I'm on set and I'm already petrified because I'm petrified and they start cutting. It broke loose of its binding. And the metal started cutting into my stomach and you2 (20m 36s):Couldn't sit1 (20m 37s):Down and I couldn't sit down. And I couldn't, I couldn't tell anybody because I was so embarrassed. And I told this to Justin and I couldn't and I got home and I had a huge gash that was infected in my stomach, my area of most self hatred, my belly, my gut. And it was bloody and it was bruised. And I thought, oh my God. So that's body horror. Right? And like, the way you tell that story is feminist body horror. And I'm like, oh my God. And I think Gina, it's going to be, well, what I'm wondering is, is it the only way that women get to express themselves in Hollywood is by making like body horror.2 (21m 17s):First of all, having a body is a horror, correct? I mean, do you know that that's a great premise for a whole pardon? The pun, big body of work? Because I think about that with relate, with respect to being fat. But I also think about it with respect to being old aging, Aging is such and, and being fat. And aging is like such a horrible combo because young and fat is a different thing than old and fat. Right. Older fat is just like, that has this positive connotation.1 (21m 57s):Also you could, there's underlying is that you could always lose it. You're young enough to lose it. There's2 (22m 2s):Still time. Right.1 (22m 4s):And it's not like it's not body positive, fat, positive movements are like taking hold, but old and fat. No,2 (22m 11s):It's all. Yeah. Yeah. I always often wonder do the body, body positive folks know that the biggest thing they have on their side right now is that they're young and fat as opposed to anyway. So to answer your question. Yeah. I'm sure that is the only way. And I mean, our only way in as women to anything that has been traditionally closed off to us is violent. Right? I mean, that's the only way we ever get into anything. And we always have a lot of casualties in the fronts of these feminist wars, you know, the sexual revolution. I mean, not that it didn't happen always, but you know, more spotlight on the free love movement meant that women were the casualties of a lot of sexual abuse and rape pregnancy traumas, all this kind of stuff.2 (23m 1s):Yeah. So, but you know, like you did in your beautiful blog, posts people, if you haven't read it, please go to our website and read Jen's posts. Luckily for us, we're really, we're really familiar with this horror. We're really familiar with this pain. And if we can turn it into art, then, then I hesitant, I hesitate to say will have been worth it, but at least we can do something.1 (23m 30s):Well, I'm going to turn it. Yeah. I want to turn it into money too. That's where it makes people pay. I mean, that's the pocketbooks way, which is why, like I'm getting a job outside of this industry first to be like, okay, I'm studying that, did it. And how they did it. One their bros. And they'd probably, it's all nepotism. But also if that's not the case, they started an advertising, nothing to do with Hollywood, but Hollywood, but not Hollywood per se. And they, they made money that way and then sunk it into their own projects. And then they were able to, and they made contacts in the advertising industry.1 (24m 12s):That's how so many bros have done it in Hollywood. So many bros2 (24m 15s):That, that the Genesis of that is so beautifully displayed in mad men. You see the character, I forget the name of the character that Vincent CHRO Heizer with Where he, you know, he, he, I just remember he gets involved in hire a campaign for the sport of Jai Alai and he starts, there's something about it's going to be on television and you just see him getting so sucked into the Glen. I, you know, it's, it's an, it's an undeniable glamorous draw for people who are not in the industry. Like, Ooh, everybody thinks it's glamorous to be on TV. And yes.2 (24m 56s):And people in advertising are like the perfect blend of, you know, cutthroat and creative. Maybe a little bit. And yeah. Anyway.1 (25m 6s):Yeah. I mean, I, I like doing yeah. That, that my blog post was completely completely w started by that. Like, because I'm one nosy too quick, three know my way around. And my memory's great. And know my way around research. I literally saw names did this, did this, did that, did this?4 (25m 41s):I don't know. I think there's a fight. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's the1 (25m 51s):Guys, it2 (25m 51s):Seem like it's inside the building.1 (25m 53s):Oh, it's two coworkers. It's two people at co-working and there's a guy there's a movie maker on the left and a, a professor on the right. And they got into it2 (26m 4s):About Ukraine. Probably. They're probably talking about that.1 (26m 7s):And they might be, I dunno, anyway, that's what's forgive me anyway. No,2 (26m 10s):No,1 (26m 12s):Whoa. So, okay. So, but it was, I just couldn't research and put it together and I'm like, okay, who are these people? What are they doing? Oh, they did this. Oh, and look, look, look, look, look, look, of course people are like, well, someone was like, well, you know, you know, at one it's bad for business to talk shit about the industry. And I'm like, oh, okay. But there is no business. I have no business. What business do I have? I don't2 (26m 35s):Have any said that. Like, you shouldn't write1 (26m 37s):That. Like, like, like you want to be careful. And I was like, okay,2 (26m 42s):Well, it's never as if that's ever1 (26m 43s):Worked. Also. I said, lady, it was a woman too. And I said, listen, I have no work. There is no work. What am I, what do you mean? I won't get hired. I'm not getting hired. Not I, this is not no, like that doesn't even make any sense. It holds no water. Cause it's just, it's not true. And you know, I won't be hired if I'm dead because I stifled myself and then have a heart attack. You know what I mean? So anyway, that people say all kinds of stuff, but I also know that it is a bigger problem. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not about these 2, 3, 2 dudes in an assistant at a table. And it is about the dues and the assistant at a table.1 (27m 25s):It's a much larger problem. So I I'm well aware that, that these three dudes are not the whole problem because people are like, you know, maybe they're nice. I'm like, oh my God, you're missing the fucking point.2 (27m 41s):You're missing the point. I'm1 (27m 43s):Nice too. I don't have a fucking job with an a, or a script with my name on it.2 (27m 47s):And we have all internalized patriarchy to such a degree that like, we miss it when it's gone. I, that group that I left. Oh yeah, it has gone. You know, I'm still, I'm still a member of the group, even though I'm not, you know, in any type of a leadership position because everything okay.1 (28m 2s):Yeah. Everything is okay.2 (28m 4s):Okay. The first thing that happened when the majority of us left is a bunch of men or like a few men came in to, it was an all female board and now it's, there's there's men on it, which is fine. And the, one of the first things they did was they re-instituted, do you know what Robert's rules1 (28m 26s):Is? No, what's that,2 (28m 28s):It's like a way of conducting a meeting where you have to have motions and seconds and all of, you know, it's1 (28m 34s):Is it like a business meeting in a 12 step group? Have you ever done?2 (28m 39s):And I, I dunno. Okay. Well sure. And I, and on the face of it, I understand it's, it's meant to be, it's meant to ensure that everybody gets to speak their mind and you know, and it, and it's meant to be, you know, it's meant to promote cohesion, but it just something about it. It's like, Robert's for like, that's what came in. It's just Robert's rules. It's just1 (29m 8s):Gross.2 (29m 9s):And it's, and, and, you know, and the organization is just gone. It's as it's as if our whole tenure, there was a fever dream and they all went like that was weird. And they just moved right back to where it all was1 (29m 23s):Before. Right. That's really sad. That's super sad.2 (29m 26s):It's sad. And I feel like in the same way that a group of humans will always look for a leader, a group of humans will always look for the, a man to be in charge. Right? It's it's, it's so deeply embedded in our DNA5 (29m 55s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Canadian playwright, Dave devote a K a peach cobbler has drag queen alter ego. If you watched a television show in the, I think it was in the early nineties called, are you afraid of the dark? You probably saw Dave because he, in addition to being a playwright and a drag performer and an actor, he wasn't child star. So David's warm and funny and look just really a breath of fresh air. So please enjoy our conversation with Dave Devoe.6 (30m 40s):So2 (30m 44s):Anyway, Dave dissolves, congrats. Wait, actually, I have to phrase this differently for the first time I'm asking Dave devote. Did you survive theater school? Did you go to theater7 (30m 54s):School? Parts of me did.2 (30m 57s):But you went to theater7 (30m 58s):School? I did. Okay. Okay.2 (30m 60s):Good.7 (31m 2s):I'm like, what are you talking about?2 (31m 4s):Yeah, we have, we've had just one person who she actually, more than one person. People have different conceptions of what theater school is. And some people do a theater major and they don't know the difference between that and the conservatory. I couldn't care less, but I just didn't know for certain with you. So congratulations. You did survive theater school, but what, see what you're going to say more about you've survived parts of it?7 (31m 29s):Well, no, like I think like parts of me survived, right? Like I think, I think we, we all come out of theater school, like a slightly different assembly of parts than we come in. And I think for some people that's great. And I think for some people that's super detrimental. So we'll see where we all fall on that stuff.2 (31m 47s):Part of you was a casualty,7 (31m 52s):You know what, oddly enough, the, the actor part of me with, I think, was a casualty, like, because I sort of came to theater school from a very let's start at the beginning. I was a child actor in film and TV from a young young age. And so then sort of went to theater by starting in film and TV because theater felt, you know, like a really safe, lovely community-driven space. But, but I think what theater school gave me is like, I came into theater school thinking I'm going to be an actor. And I left knowing I would be a playwright for my life.7 (32m 35s):Yeah. So that was a good, first1 (32m 37s):Of all, back back it up Child, we've had one other child star Jonas Avery was on, but, but he went theater and then film and TV and back to theater school. So tell us you really, how, what happened there? That,7 (32m 54s):Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's a bit bizarre. I was, you know, a sort of theatrical, precocious child and there, you know, and I was really into like, we, we go see a lot of theater growing up, but not a lot. I mean, we, but my parents don't come from the arts, but they were like, let's expose our kids to interesting things. And then I was, I must've been in like kindergarten grade one, something like that. And there was a teacher's assistant in our class who spoke to my mother saying my mom's an agent and your kid is really like vivacious. And do you think that's something he'd be interested in? My mom was like, I don't, I have no idea what you're talking about.7 (33m 38s):So anyway, we met with her and, and my mom's like, is this like, is this something you're interested in? I was1 (33m 44s):Like, sure, let's do it. Let's7 (33m 45s):See what happens. And, and so I just started doing like a lot of commercials, you know, when, like when I was a little, little one and then my mom was great as far as just really constantly checking in of like, is this fun? Like, is this a thing you'd like, because I mean, I don't think it was fun for like schlepping a kid around to endless auditions. That's not fun.1 (34m 7s):She knows2 (34m 9s):My kid. It's not fun. Wait, I have to time out one second, Dave, your, either your microphone here, it is sometimes7 (34m 17s):Just hold it. Cause1 (34m 18s):It2 (34m 18s):Hits your shirt and it makes up, sorry, please continue.7 (34m 22s):Yeah. So, so you know, okay.1 (34m 26s):So wait, wait, wait, I can, I can start us up with what you just said was super interesting when you met this person, were you thinking like, oh, this is an agent like, or were you just like, what was going on in your brain?7 (34m 39s):What I was thinking? I think it was more, you know, they're like, I think that the, the idea of like being on camera is really novel to kids because I think it's very different now. Like we live in a social media age, but like in the late eighties, early nineties, whenever that, yeah, probably like late eighties at this point, that's like, that's a cool thing. You know, we don't even have a big camcorder at home. Like this. I can be what in front of a camera, let's try that. So it was great. And, and then when we, when we moved, we had to move a lot for my dad's work. And so, but we kept moving to like bigger and bigger film, TV hubs, right?7 (35m 20s):Like, so when we settled in Montreal, I, the agent I'd had in Calgary had sort of forwarded us to an agent in, in Montreal. And, and then I started actually going out for like, like real stuff, like films, and then I booked a series and then it was, oh, we're doing this. Okay. And so1 (35m 42s):How old were you when you booked a series? Like that's, everyone's dream by the way that in LA, right. So7 (35m 47s):Yeah, I will, the first1 (35m 51s):Season, first series I7 (35m 53s):Would have. Oh God, that's a great question. I was probably like nine or 10. I might've been like, I might've been 12 by then.1 (36m 4s):And you were series regular, like7 (36m 6s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's1 (36m 7s):So, but I mean, it's,7 (36m 11s):It sounds like it's way more work than it is because, so do, do you remember the Nickelodeon show? Are you afraid of the dark?1 (36m 18s):So that7 (36m 19s):Was, that was the show. So I was part of the campfire, which so yes, I'm a series regular and I appear in every episode, but it's like, there's a scene at the beginning. There's a scene at the end. We shoot the whole like season in like three weeks.1 (36m 33s):Right.7 (36m 34s):So it's not1 (36m 37s):Awesome. Yeah, because that's a show where like, yeah, you, you, the kids, and then you go into the story in the middle. Right. The actual story. That is fantastic. What was that like for you?7 (36m 49s):Th that series was, was incredible because I mean, a, I was a huge fan of that show. So I actually got cast at first. I got cast in one of the episodes, like in the story, not the campfire and had a real blast. And, and then I thought, wow, are you for the dark? This is amazing. We shot it. And then the series was done. It got canceled. And I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm glad I just snuck in there. So then two, three years later, they announced that they were going to bring the show back. And I called my agent immediately saying, if they're casting campfire, you have to get me in there.7 (37m 29s):Like, please, please, please, please, please I'll do anything. And she said, yeah, yeah, I'm trying. And they wouldn't see me. And I was, I was livid. And then I called us, like, sneak me in for callbacks. Like we know this casting director, she cast me before, like, please just get me in there to like, you know, all of my child, actor, friends, like went and had their callbacks. I had nothing. I was so angry. And I was like, can you sneak me in with like the girls? Cause like first they did the boys. Like, can anything please1 (37m 55s):Hustler, man, you're a hustler.7 (37m 58s):I love that show like so much. I don't know. And, and I mean, that is not, I'd never hustled for any other thing ever, but I was just, so it just felt like it's a sign. I, you know, it's, it's coming back and I just had this thing and I had such a great rapport with like the producers and the director and blah, blah, blah. So months go by and I'm, I, you know, I'm sad and I move on and then I get a call from my agent saying, they, you know, you're, you're coming in for a meeting. It's like a meet a meeting. Like, what does that mean? What's a meeting. We've never had a meeting.1 (38m 31s):Right. What is a meeting?7 (38m 32s):But it's at the, it's at like the casting directors office. I'm like, okay. So we go in and there's, you know, DJ like DJ and Ned that the creators, the producers. And they're like, Hey Dave, Hey guys. And they said, you know, You, you you've been really trying to like get in the room, haven't you? Like, I was like, oh God, that's this mortifying. Like I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, and they said, you know, well, we, you know, we had to, we had to audition a bunch of people, but, but we wrote a role in the series for you.7 (39m 12s):And they were like, so what do you say? Like, like, is this, am I being punked? Like what's happening right now? So,1 (39m 21s):Oh my God. I just feel so. And I just want to say, I don't think there's any coincidence that it was in Canada where people are fucking nice.7 (39m 30s):Right? Yeah.1 (39m 32s):Anyway,7 (39m 34s):This is a1 (39m 34s):Dream7 (39m 35s):And what happened? And, and then, you know, suddenly it was, I was off to like, we started about a month later and it, it was shot in Montreal. Like the whole series was always shot in Montreal. And, and so we did the first season and I thought, well, that's exciting. And then suddenly they were like, Hey, we're flying all of you to New York. You're going to host Snick. I was like, I don't know what that is. We don't get Nickelodeon in Canada. Like, so they suddenly, we were in Manhattan, like shooting all this promo stuff and there were billboards and we were like, what is going on? And that was, so that was like, really, I mean, you know, I did a bunch of like real garbage, like movies and things, but that was like my one little sort of touchdown in like, oh, is this, what is this?7 (40m 17s):What fame is like1 (40m 18s):Stars to be a star. And I7 (40m 20s):Felt a bit uneasy about it truthfully. Like I was like, I don't know that that's I could see, I could see myself on that track and I could see what that probably would be for me. And I think I worried a bit about what that would, what that would1 (40m 38s):A lot about that. We talk a lot about that, about like, if I had gotten famous right out of theater school, I'd be dead. I mean, I would probably have done so many drugs and then been so interacts. Like I would have killed, I would have died at7 (40m 50s):Some point.2 (40m 52s):So what does that mean? I'm projecting ahead. Does that mean your eventual move into theater was a way of stepping back from the insanity of television?7 (41m 5s):I mean, I wonder like, it's interesting. Cause I shouldn't say that I sort of discovered theater. Like they were happening in tandem. I was doing community theater, you know, I do like the community musical in the small town where I lived and then I'd say, Hey guys, I've got to go away for three weeks to shoot. Are you afraid of dark? I'll be back and I'll resume my role. So,1 (41m 26s):So7 (41m 27s):I think, I dunno, I think so. So, okay. So, so the show happened and then I was, I was going to a fine arts high school in their creative writing program because originally I wanted to audition for the drama program, but I had, I was already on, are you afraid of the dark at that point? And so they were like, okay, but if you have to go shoot it, like you can't just not show up for drama classes for weeks at a time. Like that's not, that's not a thing. And so I was like, oh, that's a solid point. So, but I could do that in, in creative writing because it's like, I was a studious kid. I was like, I will get everything in on time. I will fax in every assignment from Stax facts. Yeah. Right.7 (42m 8s):So, so towards the end of high school, I knew by then through this creative writing program was really when I, because we were writing in every genre, but I kept going back to playwriting because it was like dialogue, dialogue. I get this, like I come from film and TV. Like I get this, this is how I see the world and hear the world. So I started applying for theater schools and then, and then got cast, I got offered another series.1 (42m 38s):Are you fucking the greatest fucking story I've ever heard?7 (42m 45s):And I, and I, then this is not self-deprecating. I think I'm a, I think I'm a good play. Right. But like, I've never been a good actor ever, like, but it was a time and place where there were roles for like a vivacious fat kid. I was much bigger as a kid. And I was it like, I was that kid,1 (43m 2s):Right?7 (43m 4s):Yeah. So it's like, there were a lot1 (43m 5s):Of, you had a niche and7 (43m 7s):You really1 (43m 7s):Did.7 (43m 8s):Yeah. So it was like, I knew that, you know, oh, you're shooting, there's, there's a film coming to town about a soccer team. Right. And they're going to cast a bunch of kids, that's you? There's a fat kid role. Sure enough, there I have.1 (43m 21s):Well, let's talk about that because that's really interesting to me and really, I mean, I also, I was an overweight kid and I'm plus size lady now. And I know that. So tell me about that. Was there an I was there, did you have feelings about being that kid?7 (43m 37s):It's interesting. Cause I don't, I don't know that I had them in the moment, but my God have I had them since I, years, years later, I was in a, like an emerging filmmaker program for the queer film festival in Toronto. And I made this short film called belly, which was all about like, not, you know, not just being like, like coming of age as like a chubby gay kid and like their staff attached to that. But specifically coming of age as a chubby gay kid on camera and being chronicled as such and like, and having like, and then, you know, we edited together footage of all of these things.7 (44m 17s):Like, like things that I was like, I can't even believe they asked like an eight year old kids to say that on camera. Right?1 (44m 23s):Like, like stuff about your weight and stuff7 (44m 26s):Pan to this character. Anyways, we're filming this guy ends up in hospital. And so I'm the kid in the bed next to him. And he starts like chatting like, oh, Hey, what's your name? Oh, I'm Stan. Oh, what are you doing in the hospital? Oh, I'm fat. Oh, but like, what else is wrong with you? No, nothing. I'm just fat, but my parents think there's something else wrong with me. Cause I'm so fat. And I was like,2 (44m 47s):Wow,7 (44m 50s):Like how, like how potentially lethally damaging that could be. Right.1 (44m 55s):Did you just compartmentalize it or?7 (44m 58s):Well, cause I think I was like, I'm on set with like, I mean, you know, a bunch of friends who I knew, like we'd done a bunch of films together. In fact, Ryan Gosling was in that movie with us back when he was, you know, a young kid, Burt Reynolds was in it. Like, it was just like, we're doing this fun thing, but also, huh. So2 (45m 18s):Yeah, there's, there's just no attention paid even w cause my son is also gets called in for those roles. He only gets called in for the bully. That that's the only role he ever gets called in for it. And when he gets cast, I just feel like it starts with costume fittings. It, the otherness, the separateness starts there and it's like, they're, they're calling me back. Is this really his like, I can't are these really his measurements? Yes. These are really his measurements. Okay. And then, and then inevitably it's something like we had to, we had to, it was hard to find pants, that kind of thing and saying that to him and or in front of saying it to me, but in front of him,7 (46m 2s):But isn't this like, isn't this your job? Like, isn't your job finding clothing for bodies. Yeah,1 (46m 8s):It is. And, and, and, and I, I, yeah. And as an actor, I have the same thing. So I find that if I had been so traumatized by, by the, not just the words on sets and ER, intelligent film, but also as an actor by the crew and by the especially wardrobe and makeup and hair and, and anyway, so you compartmentalize that part of it and you also, it sounds like no one was like, mean to you to your face. Like they weren't like, oh, we can't find clothes for you. Or,7 (46m 41s):I mean, I, I think they were a bit, but I, but I think I was really sheltered by like really good parents. Like, and I mean, you know, cause, cause I was in, there were the kids on set who had like, you know, that stage parent who like really is there to make sure their kid is successful and make sure that kids like that. And that was not the energy I had. Like I had, you know, like my mom is, is a refugee. Like she came to Canada as a refugee. Like she grew up in a very particular context and this is a very different context where she's like, I'm just here to make sure no one is fucking with my kid. Like, and not in like an aggressive way, but just in like, okay, let's, let's walk away from this conversation.7 (47m 23s):We don't want to do that. So I felt I was very taken care of in that sense.2 (47m 28s):So you, what, describe the bridge between doing all of that and then when it's time for college and you're looking into acting program or at the beginning, that's what you were going to do as an acting program.7 (47m 40s):Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for a bunch of programs, like determined that I was going to be that, you know, conservatory actor. And like, I, I look back at it now and it's so funny. It's like my, like I'm trying to sort of rationalize what my 17 year old brain, like how I chose, who I applied to. It's so confused. Like I I've applied for Juilliard like two or three times in my life, but like no other, like, but it's like Juilliard and then like the local college in my town.2 (48m 13s):Interesting.7 (48m 13s):Interesting. Like what's the Juilliard connection I have anyway. I probably someone told me once probably that Juilliard was the place and that really set in somehow. So I applied for a bunch of theater schools and there was one program in particular that I was curious about because they have a conservatory program and they have a playwriting stream and they also had what they, at that time called creative ensemble. So like devised theater. And I thought like that there's something in that maybe that's a thing. So, so I got accepted to that school and that, that school is a funny way.7 (48m 54s):It's called York university. It's just outside of Toronto and, and I mean, I'm sure there are many theater schools like this, but at that school, like everyone starts in first year in sort of a general, like all the theater students, you don't, you don't start your conservatory till second year. So you have your first year to do some shit and then you re audition for the streams. So I went there pretty determined that I really wanted to see the conservatory stream. And then there's something about the, like, you know, my acting and movement and voice classes in first year that I was like, I, I think the writing was like kind of on the wall there of like, I'm not great at this.1 (49m 39s):Okay. So say more. Yeah, yeah.7 (49m 41s):Yeah. Like I, because I mean, I think, you know, filming TV was such a fun thing for me that I was like, this needs to be fun. And like, I think it was like, I have to learn how to work in a very different way than I think my brain, or even like how weird and disconnected from my body. I am these years. Like more than I'm prepared to do.1 (50m 10s):Where you at with your body in that, in terms of when you started that school, like had you sent out or like, were you still in7 (50m 18s):Like, like many of us, like, you know, you thin out and then you don't and then you thin out again. Sure. Cause I know that between, between my first season of our, for the arc and my second season, I lost a ton of weight. And so when I showed up for fittings the second year, there was a bit of panic in the room of like, we don't know, like, Ooh, like you're, you're like the fat country bumpkin kid, like, Ooh. Hmm. So they, they padded. Yeah. They just like, they, they put they'd put me in like really bulky layers with like things on top. Like not like actual, like a fat suit, like right. Definitely shit like went out of their way to make me heftier because I think they were like, you know, kids at home, they don't want to be like, what's with Andy looks different.7 (51m 6s):What's going on.2 (51m 7s):Right, right. Oh my God.1 (51m 10s):Oh my God forbid, people change. God forbid.7 (51m 14s):So I think, you know, I like I came out when I was probably about 15. So I think after coming out was probably when I became hyper aware of my body because you know, body image in queer men, especially in that era, I think like we're in a very different time now when I think about like body positivity and in all kinds of communities, but less so then, so I think I probably started theater school, like probably slimmer than I'd ever been, I would think, but still feeling like that was not the case.1 (51m 58s):Interesting. So you're in these movement classes, these voice and speech classes and you're like, I don't think this is really right for me. So then what do you do?7 (52m 8s):So I, I like, I, I signed up to audition for the, for the conservatory, but I also sign up to audition for ensemble. And when I look at like the actual requirements of the audition, as I'm building my materials, I'm like, I don't want to do a fucking Shakespearian monologue, like ever. I do not to this day. Like, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm an artistic director of a company here. We have a Shakespeare component. Like1 (52m 38s):I was going to be a hard pass on the old Shakespeare for me.7 (52m 41s):Yeah. I dunno. Like it's just, I think I'm, I'm so I, so contemporary in my, in my taste of everything, you know, I, I read voraciously, but I want, I like historical fiction book. That's a bit of a slog for me. So, so I think it was like, I want, I think I started to take ownership of like, I know my creativity and I know where my strengths lie and my strengths lie in creating things. And I just, I think having come from like my creative writing intensive, like high school program, I was like, I don't know if I can spend every minute of the day interpreting rather than, than creating, or at least like, I'm now sort of imbuing that with like some kind of like, I have no idea if this is actually true, that, that I had this aha moment.7 (53m 44s):Or if I just panicked, I was like, I don't want to learn Shakespeare. I'm going to do this thing2 (53m 49s):Some for some reason. And maybe it's because I know that you went on to become a drag performer, something for some reason, I have this idea that maybe what was off putting to you is this idea that you were always going to be in that context, just embodying the words that, you know, I was actually just saying this to somebody the other day, actors have a unique kind of prison as artists in the sense that if they don't go on to direct and write, which almost everybody is doing these days, but if they don't, they're, they're, they're limited to only ever expressing the words of another person.2 (54m 32s):And it actually makes them in many cases we've learned even from doing these interviews, not that great at talking about themselves and their way of thinking. Cause it's all just been inside and what's been outside is the words of other people. I wonder if that somehow seemed true for you even then.7 (54m 49s):That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that really resonates. So I went into this, I audition for this device theater program and even just like, you know, sometimes like sometimes you just know like when, when I, when it was like, okay, this is what I have to prepare. Okay, this, this has a lot to prepare, but like, let's do it. Let's, let's go to the studio and let's just spend hours and hours and hours getting this down. And I thought like, okay, that's interesting. Like I'm really leaning into this rather than pulling away. So like, okay. So I got into that program. And1 (55m 28s):So this was a devised7 (55m 30s):Theater, so it's like third, I think 25 of us. And, and it was literally like, you know, on Monday they're like, okay, we're this week we're in groups of four, your central theme is isolation and, and you need, you know, like there'll be certain other components and you present Friday for an audience go Was, it was great. It was really, and, and I mean, and they'd give us some really specific projects and, but it was great. It was just like generative, constantly generative. And, you know, I do think, you know, if someday I end up in a TV writer's room, like it, it, it will be because of that, of just knowing that I have to make something and I have to make something, I just have to make it work in a tiny, tiny of time.7 (56m 24s):There's no, there's not room for like this deep contemplation up, but what, I don't know, it's just do it.1 (56m 31s):Oh, you're going to, that is, that is going to, if you ever did want to do TV and a TV, like I know I'm not in a writer's room, but like, from what I know, yeah. That's like extremely helpful because overthinking and second guessing in those situations is like, nobody has time, time is money and just make a choice and fucking move on versus having an hiring. So good for you. So you, so that taught you that like you just go with it.7 (57m 3s):Yeah. And I, and I do think that how I work as a playwright is still very much that, of, of like I, and sometimes to my detriment where it's like, just, I'm just going to dive in and just write and write and write and write rather than like, I'm going to sit, I'm going to actually like outline this thing and really figure out beat by beat where I'm headed, which I'm starting to do a bit more now in my practice. So, so yeah, I got into that program and then still took like voice and movement classes with, with some of the conservatory kids on top of that. And then also started in playwriting and dramaturgy classes because I just thought it would all support what I was doing.2 (57m 47s):Oh. And I'm sure it really did. I am obsessed with drag performance and I would love to know when that started for you and what the whole journey has been like.7 (57m 58s):Yeah. So I always, I mean, when I, when I was in theater school, I was always going out to drag shows, you know, like the, the, the gay bar was, was really like, like sacred space that, and I mean, I remember, I remember not really under Steven understanding. I remember seeing drag for the first time and thinking like, why does this happen? Like, what is this? Like, you know, like why, and also like, why is it so compelling? Because on paper, it shouldn't be right. Like, okay, so someone's going to dress up and they're going to, they're not going to sing, but they're going to lit, like, they're going to pretend they're singing to a song, but it's, but I ended up being so like when it's done well, it can be really moving.7 (58m 49s):And I remember like really, I think started starting to sort of study it of like, what is that, like, why is this, why does this resonate? And then got really into sort of researching the history of drag. And I had never, and I always said like, I have no intention of ever doing drag. I just love witnessing it. I find it actually quite like that shared energy, I find quite compelling and it sort of speaks to human level.1 (59m 17s):It sounds, you know, Jean and I are both former therapists and it, to me, it sounds therapeutic. I mean, like that's when you talk about it, like it sounds and, and, and it sounds, yeah, you said it sacred. So whenever there's sacred space, there's usually some kind of healing that goes on. Yeah.7 (59m 37s):Yeah. So then my, my husband, well then the guy was sort of dating. He was, I was living in Toronto. He was here in Vancouver and he came up to visit me and I introduced him to, you know, the world of drag and all these shows, which again, he'd never really participated in, but, but it became this, you know, we were there every week to see the same show with the same Queens and being really into it. And, and then we, and then I found out I got into grad school in Vancouver, so we both moved back to Vancouver. And when I arrived here, I thought like, wow, drag here is really, it's really different from, from Toronto drag. Like it's different in the structure of shows.7 (1h 0m 19s):It's everything about it. Like in Toronto, you know, a drag queen comes out and in one costume will, you know, do like eight numbers and talk to the audience in between. And then she rotates up in the next one comes in and then you sort of rinse and repeat. So it's just like, it's endless and like lots of1 (1h 0m 34s):Show kind of a thing.7 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah. But it's Vancouver, it's like a drag queen comes out. She does one number and address. She disappears and then the next one comes out. It's just like one number, no talking. I thought like, oh, this is odd. It's hard. It's hard for me to sort of penetrate it because there, you're not developing that rapport with an audience. So, so we were sort of watching a show one night, having just seen all these magical shows in Toronto and saw the show that was just not particularly moving. And I remember leaning into my husband saying, you could do way better than this and not wanting to be those naysayers who just shit all over everyone else's efforts without actually doing anything. We said, yeah, actually like, let's do that.7 (1h 1m 19s):And so my husband had started a theater company here in Vancouver and I come from a bit of a fundraising background and, you know, they had no grant, they had no money to, to, to do the first show. So I said, you know, let me run some events. I used to run some events in Toronto and let's have you as the drag queen star. And then for years and years, I mean, our, our events took off and, and you know, at first we're doing them quarterly and then monthly and then weekly. And, and we really were living like the like casual fall kind of life. Like I was the producer who carried the bags and, and he was the star. And then as he's a, he's a theater director.7 (1h 1m 59s):So as he then had to go direct a show, I was like the, the understudy. And I started hosting his show just on sort of on a whim. I was like, I'll do this once because I really want to make some tip money because I've been producing the show for free for years. And it'd be great to just be able to pay my liquors Hab. And I did it, and it was really magical. And, and it was like, and also kind of emotional because I was like, oh, Hey child, actor, Dave, who did this thing for years and years, and then stopped how you doing there you are.7 (1h 2m 39s):Hmm. Interesting. And so it's stock and I've been doing it regularly for a decade and had a weekly show. And yeah,2 (1h 2m 51s):I was expecting you to say so that you then started in Vancouver, the kind of drag that you really related to more in Toronto. Is that, is that how it worked out?7 (1h 3m 2s):Yeah, we just sort of, yeah. Yeah. I think, and I mean, we, you know, we still do a lot of shows. Like we do guest spots on other people's shows that still have that sort of Vancouver structure. But yeah, I started, I started a show here called shame spiral, which was literally, I show up in and outfit. I do have a guest in the show and, you know, she prepares some numbers, but I don't know what I'm performing on any given night. So I have, what's called the blender of shame, which is an actual blender with the blades removed full of a hundred different songs on pieces of paper. And so when it's time for me to do, like, I talked to the audience relentlessly, when it's time to do a number on audience member comes up, picks a number, it brings it directly to the DJ.7 (1h 3m 44s):And then the whole gimmick is like, will she even, will she know this? Will she even recognize it from the opening bars? Let's see what happens. And so it's like this gag that everyone's in on2 (1h 3m 56s):And,7 (1h 3m 58s):And yeah, and, and it became, it was just so different than anything. Cause everyone was so used to like, Nope, you have to be in the exact outfit. That's in the music video to do that song. And I'm like, well, no, this week I'm going to be in this sort of like flowy number. And maybe I'm getting Shirley Bassey or maybe I'm getting Nicki Minaj or maybe I'm getting Dolly Parkin. And any of those songs are going to happen in what I'm wearing.2 (1h 4m 21s):What's it like to do Nicki Minaj number in a flowing Therese?7 (1h 4m 26s):Well, it's great. Actually, it's wild. I actually broke into the drags in here by doing Nicki Minaj. Right? Like just did wrapper drag, which is very weird to think about, but it's, you know, it's my, my husband talks, we both get interviewed about drag a lot, I think because we're like the theater professionals who are also drag Queens in the city. So we sort of straddle two worlds that are pretty associated, but a bit loosely. And he always talks about how drag is part, part, foot soldier and part court jester of like, like the, you know, the court gesture is the only person who can like make fun of the king without losing his head.7 (1h 5m 9s):And that's why Queens, like people listen to drag Queens, you know, you have Mike time and people will listen. So you really gotta make sure, you know what you have to say. And we take that very seriously. Like as a result, you know, we get hired to do political interviews with candidates running for premier here. Like,1 (1h 5m 28s):Oh,7 (1h 5m 29s):Cause it's just like, because you can, you can sort of penetrate a bit further than if Dave was interviewing someone because there's a certain grand jury and a certain shirt that's so performed, but it, it gives you, it gives you entrance. So1 (1h 5m 46s):Well, gee, do you have any idea? Cause of what goes on in my head when I hear this as like, oh, they should have a television show, like a talk show where they in drag, you know, they, that those characters interview do hard hitting interviews, but as queen, as drag, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic because also what I love, what I love about what you're saying is that the mixture of yeah. Being able to it's so worth humans are so funny. It's like if someone puts on a beautiful costume or a funny costume or a crazy costume or whatever kind of costume, and then asks you a question, there is like even a hard hitting question.1 (1h 6m 27s):There's a, what is it? It softens the blow of reality, I think. And it sort of can be make-believe, but it's not really make-believe, which is what I think is great about that is also reminds me of like Sasha Baron Cohen stuff, which is where if you put on a character, you can sort of get away with a lot of shit. And also you can pinpoint in without people taking you too seriously. And so when someone's not taking you so seriously, they're apt to actually tell you the truth more Like, what does it matter? I'm just talking, I'm just talking to these Queens. Like there's, it's so fun. It's so fun.1 (1h 7m 8s):And then all of a sudden they're dropping these serious. Now they're getting into serious stuff. And you're like, oh, like when I watched stuff like Sasha Baron Cohen, I'm Baron Cohen. I'm like, oh, oh my God, this is so intense and deep. And yet I don't really feel like I'm going to go off the deep end because it's under this guise of quote font. Right. It's like, whoa, it's real deep. It's like a real deep, it's like a real multi-layered. So I, I love this idea that you interviewed. Do you work as a team?7 (1h 7m 37s):Yeah, quite, quite a bit. Not always, but, but quite a bit. We do everything to, I mean, we, we run a company together. We raise a kid together. We do drag together. He directs the plays. Most of the plays that I write.2 (1h 7m 50s):And so you haven't been performing, but I just saw on your Instagram that it's you're reopened and you're, you've got to show up or coming up soon.7 (1h 8m 1s):Yeah. So I, so, so my husband runs a company called ZZ theater and I, which I have worked with and for, for 14 years. And so ZZ is doing its first show in its first live show. In two years, we did a full season during pandemic, which, you know, great. I'm glad we did it. And we were able to employ a lot of artists, but it's not, it's not what we're designed to do. Right. We're we're theater artists, so we're not filmmakers. So it's really exciting there that we're, it we're in rehearsal right now. But then about five months ago I started a new job. So I'm the artistic, the courts of second managing director of the children's theater here in Vancouver.7 (1h 8m 42s):And so we just opened our first show in two years yesterday and1 (1h 8m 48s):Oh, congratulations. What how'd it go? What are you doing?7 (1h 8m 51s):It went really well. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a show called Groth. It's a sort of a, an adaptation of the three Billy goats gruff. That's, that's really actually like quite beautiful and timely because it really deals with, with immigration and displacement and like who, who does or does not deserve to be in a place that has resource it's really, but, you know, but in like in a, in a whimsical digestible musical piece for kids, so that's really exciting.1 (1h 9m 29s):And then my other question is can you mix kids theater and drag?7 (1h 9m 32s):Oh, we do. Yeah. I mean, we do a lot of drag queen story time, but also the children's festival here in Vancouver commissioned our company ZZ a couple years ago to create a drag show for kids, which we perform with our son. Just the three of us.2 (1h 9m 50s):Oh, he performed.7 (1h 9m 53s):Yeah.2 (1h 9m 53s):Wow. Amazing.7 (1h 9m 55s):Yeah. The first time we did it, he was, I mean, he was like a year and a half. So he, you know, he, he was basically acute prop, you know, like he like the Simba reveal in lion king. He was the lion, right. Like genuinely in the show. And we're about to do, they sort of recommissioned the show because of course, you know, we did the show and then in 2020, we'd been booked to tour that show to every children's festival in Canada. And then clearly we all know if that didn't happen.1 (1h 10m 26s):Right.7 (1h 10m 26s):So the festival has actually recommissioned the show now because it's very different doing a show with a four year old because he like, he's like, I want my own numbers. We're like, okay. But let's figure
Intro: Should we take offense that it's Women's History month? (history has not exactly honored women.) Gina had a rough re-entry from vacation, the Disney enchantment, the expense of having kids, the pleasures of one on one time, Junipero Serra was also a monster, Whitey Bulger, networking. Let Me Run This By You: Is Drag Race sexist?, Sasha Velour, Interview: We talk to Rebecca Spence about Hendrix College, Phantom of the Opera with Linda Eder, Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons, Erin Gray, taking the Christmas pageant quite seriously, Syler Thomas, being the preacher's daughter, playing Adelaide in Guys and Dolls and the Stage Manager in Our Town, Tisch, Zelda Fichandler, Mary Beth Fisher, Carmen Roman, Deanna Dunagan, Ora Jones, Amy Morton, Steppenwolf, Goodman Theatre, Every Brilliant Thing, Cyrano at Milwaukee Rep, beauty privilege, aging as an actress, Linda Evangelista, how Rebecca sees herself in terms of the cultural shift in American theatre, the accessibility benefit of digital theatre.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.2 (15s):And it's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (22s):And you will too. Are we famous yet? February one, one month behind my friend one month by,2 (37s):Well, it's March 1st happy women's history month.1 (41s):I didn't even know that's how bad of a woman I am.2 (45s):Oh, well I was just thinking like, should we take offense that it's, you know, black history and women's history, like it's all in the past, you know, like why with both of those groups of people, we don't really want to be in the past.1 (1m 2s):Oh. And in fact there is a t-shirt that says that people love that. I have the same thought that says the future. Wait, the future of film is female. And I'm like, what about the present of film?2 (1m 17s):Right, right. Write1 (1m 19s):About like, I don't have a lot of time. I'm 46. Like what are you talking about the future? I mean, I can't be talking about the future. So I, I think the more we can get things in the present, the better off we are,2 (1m 33s):The better off we are now you're back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I did not want to come back. I did not leave my vacation. I did not wanna leave 80 degree weather and no responsibilities and fun all day. And it was our, a free entry1 (1m 53s):Monday, really? For everybody, just2 (1m 55s):You or well, for everybody. But for my part, it was getting in on a very late plane, not getting home till one 30 in the morning. It's two inches of ice on my driveway. So I'm like doing slapstick, trying to get my luggage to my door. My daughter's asleep. Oh my, I took the wrong key. I didn't have the right. I didn't have my house key. I don't know what the key is that I took. And so luckily, I mean, I guess I, nobody knows my address, but luckily we have a door that we often leave unlocked and it was unlocked.2 (2m 45s):So we got in and I got my daughter upstairs and I said, just go to sleep. I'll take care of everything. And she was like, yeah, of course, of course. I'm like, I'm not taking care of anything right now. So I remembered that we had some snow melt. I smelled, I go get it. And of course, when I walked into this door, that's usually unlocked. I immediately locked it saying like, we really shouldn't be leaving this open all the time. Oh my God. I know what's coming. I think, keep going, keep going though. And then I get my little ice smell and I go to the back and I closed the door because it's 20 degrees. And I don't want to let all the more mare out. And I happily salt my steps and get the luggage and bring it back up.2 (3m 30s):And the door was locked because the door was locked and I still don't have a key. And that my daughter is fast asleep. And not only is she slowly, I've already turned on the white noise machine. So if I ring the doorbell, if I had any chance of her hearing me, which it's pretty scant. And in any case, because she's a heavy sleeper, I've now masked the sound and it's cold, it's cold. And you, I immediately would be like, I have to eat this ice melt. That's not sane. That did not occur to me. Here's what occurred to me. I'm wearing leggings a t-shirt and a thin sweatshirt because I was just in 80 degree weather and sneakers.2 (4m 12s):I have no hat. I have no code. I have no gloves. I don't even have a key to the car. That's in the driveway because it's my husband's car. And why would I have a key to that? And we do have a garage code that has been broken for like a year. So I guess I should fix that for next time. I'm in this situation. Yeah. And I just tried ringing the doorbell and I tried yelling her name, you know, from down to like I'm in Romeo and Juliet, just yelling up to her window to the family in Utah. They weren't back. Oh my God.2 (4m 55s):I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? Walk to my neighbors at two in the morning and, and do what use, oh, and I didn't mind my phone was inside of, oh my God. Even if I had my phone, what am I going to do? Call my daughter. She doesn't have a cellphone. So I was in a real quandary. I was, I was in a pickle. So here's what I'd come to. I'm going to throw a heavy Boulder through our glass door so that I could get in. And then I'm going to tape it up with cardboard because I must get inside of my house. And then I remembered that another security breach we have is that our window in our dining room that goes directly onto our porch is never locked and very easy to climb through.2 (5m 43s):So that's what I did. And I didn't get to sleep until 3:00 AM. And that's just, that was just like, that was just, of course that was my reentry. Like there could have been no other reentry because ending your vacation sucks, sucks,1 (5m 60s):Bad. It2 (6m 0s):Really sucks. The greatest period of time is like the two weeks before your vacation, when you're getting psyched and then your vacation. And then for me, about two days before it's over, I'm like, oh God, I have to go.1 (6m 12s):I, I, I mean, you know, we're, I am really bad at transitions. Like I remember as an actor being told that to like, and I remember thinking that, and I remember thinking that's perfect. Like that, that makes perfect sense. I'm not shocked. And it makes perfect sense. I, there were no transitions in my childhood. It was like, you're being thrown here and then you're being thrown it. And so this all makes sense. And also it to be fair, your vacation did look fucking brilliant.2 (6m 43s):Like my vacation was like a1 (6m 46s):Dream.2 (6m 47s):It was like a dream come true. Honestly, like I kept being like, why is this so amazing? And I, I do. I do think, I, I think I understand now why Disney has the stranglehold on everybody's wallets that it does. It's because for many people, it is a place where your childhood is openly defended and encouraged and people don't get that. You know, and most people don't get that in other realms of their life. And you know, there's a lot of adult, only groups of people at Disney.2 (7m 28s):Like I even read a review of our hotel that was complaining about the number of children there. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's called the all star movies. It's like the it's 101 Dalmatian themed and toy story and Fantasia. And I'm thinking, wow, this couple went here thinking, oh,1 (7m 50s):People visionary tear like they without no, no, no. There are. Yeah, no, you're right on eighties. I think you've really, really hit the nail on the head. When you said that it's people's childhood encouraged, like, are you kidding me? Like senior pictures. I was like, oh, I'm going there. And I don't care if I go alone. Like, I don't give a fuck. You're going to see me alone. Wandering through Disneyland. Happy as a fucking clam.2 (8m 19s):Do you like rollercoasters? No. Oh, you don't like roller coasters. I was going to say, well, let's go together because I didn't get to ride one single roller coaster.1 (8m 25s):I will go with you. I would go if I trusted the person, I'm always just like, because I'm so neurotic. I'm like, do I want to die with this person? If I'm with some weird, like, you know, whatever. No I would go with you.2 (8m 40s):Well, let me tell you that. I don't know when the last time you went to like a six flags was, but the difference between your run of the mill amusement park and Disney is like the difference between coach on spirit, airline and first class Emirates. Yeah, exactly. It's just, they really, they really curate the experience for you. And I'm so fascinated by all of the work that has gone into just that, like all of the work that has gone into, and we, we had a classmate at the theater school who worked at Disney before she went to theater school and I'm drawing a blank on her name, blonde blonde hair.2 (9m 23s):And she told us about some of the rules. They have rules about how long your fingernails could be. And they had rules about your earrings and they had rules. I think some of those rules have changed because I'm pretty sure you didn't used to be able to show tattoos. I think you couldn't have dreadlocks before. Like it was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. So, so they've put a lot of effort into preserving the magic, right? Like you can't, there's this underground tunnel system. So you don't see the characters in there. Cause my daughter kept saying, oh, it was so sweet. She said, there's this hotel that's right near the park. And she said, why didn't we stay at that hotel? And I said, because it's like $3,000 a night. And she said, oh, I bet that's where the princess is live.2 (10m 7s):And I said, yeah, maybe. And I, and it was, as you recall, we went through this whole Santa's Easter bunny thing and she's she's hip to that. So I didn't challenge her assumption, but a couple of days later she did. And she said, well, they're not really princesses. They're really people who put on princess dresses. So they probably don't live here. I said, yeah, they probably don't. She said, where do I live? And I said, in an apartment, and I just saw the look on her face, like imagining, you know, Ariel living in her studio in like Florida. Right. And I live in Orlando having gone to theater school and then like, what am I doing? But you know what she's doing? She's fucking making dreams come fucking true is what she's done is like, honestly, it's the Lauren's work.2 (10m 53s):I felt like because they have these opportunities for you to meet the princesses, you know? And these people know their characters so well to the point that I can never hear Cinderella, she talks so quietly. I can never hear what she's saying. The, the girl, the woman who plays Rapunzel, that character talked a million miles an hour, she talks a million miles an hour. They read and they just know the ins and outs of their movies, such that they're constantly referencing. Like when, when we met Jasmine, she said, have you seen my monkey?2 (11m 35s):A pu I mean, and Clarissa was like, no, is she around here? Like, we'll, we'll go look for him. They really draw you in to the world. Do they are master storytellers? That's what they are Disney is. And these people, their whole,1 (11m 54s):I know people that go on Disney cruises that are like, I would live on this boat if I could.2 (12m 2s):Yeah, man. It's so enticing. It, it really is. And I, and I found myself being like, okay, this is like a museum product. It's a vacation. Like, but I think it made it harder to leave Mo a lot of times I have to say, especially since having kids, no offense to my kids. A lot of times when I come back from vacations, I'm like so relieved for it to be over because I've had to do so much work. I mean, traveling with one kid, who's pretty, self-sufficient was very easy to put a whole new spin on a family vacation.1 (12m 38s):It's my new thing, which is one-on-one time. So what I noticed in your pictures and social media was that when it's one-on-one time and I just had my niece here, right? Yes. I want to hear all about that. One-on-one time is so much different than family time. And I never had one-on-one time with either of my parents. Not that I really wanted it, but like, it was always trying to force groups or other families with our family. And I think one-on-one time people don't like to do because it's so intimate. And I, and I get that. But I also think when I saw your pictures, what I noticed was a genuine happiness and a knot in your face and your daughter's face, but also like a fun, it looked like fun.1 (13m 27s):And a lot of times when you see family fucking pictures, everyone looks miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, and it's no one's fault, but that is the jam. It is miserable to be in a group.2 (13m 37s):It is miserable. And actually, as we were walking around, she kept saying, why is that? Dad's screaming at his kid? Like there was a moment where somebody was, I didn't observe it, but there was a baby crying. And how she reported it to me was that this mother told the baby to stop crying. And I said, well, you know, we're not having that experience because you're not a baby. And because we're not all together, but we've had a lot of experiences like that. You know, I'm glad that you don't necessarily think, look at that and say, oh, that's just like our family. But that is just like our family when we're all together,1 (14m 17s):It's a dynamic. So this is my whole, my whole like new way of seeing things. Not new way. But like w what helps me get through situation is like, oh, this is a dynamic problem. It is, it is a energetic, interpersonal problem. It's not one, one person's fault. But like, I now will never, I said to my niece, like, I only want to do one on one time with, with each of you. Great2 (14m 45s):Idea. Great idea. So how did that whole thing1 (14m 47s):Come to be? So I really wanted to, so each I have taken my nephew and my niece, the oldest one on solo trips, right. To two different places. But the youngest has never been, and then the pandemic hit. And so I was like, wait a second. This isn't fair. Not that life is fair, but I like to keep things kind of like, I don't want her being like, what the hell? I'm the youngest? Cause I was the youngest. I get it. So I was like, all right, I want a lease to come out here. But by herself, without my sister, without the kids, without George, like, no, no, no, no, no. Also our place is so small. Only one person could fit in it. Right. So a small person.1 (15m 28s):And so I said to my sister for her 13th birthday, which was Sunday, I want to fly Elise out. And so that's what I did. And she, she had president's day, right? So she, she missed one day of school because me and Mr. Davis school to do something with my sister and at least came and we had a blast one-on-one man, I'm all about trying to help the dynamic, not be unmanageable for myself and for others, but I'm really thinking about myself. Like2 (15m 60s):Probably so appreciated the attention she got. Right. Because I'm sure there's not much opportunity for her to get individual attention.1 (16m 8s):It's not practical. It just doesn't happen. There's so much going on. And you know, and, and so we had a blast. Now look, one thing that I was telling my therapist yesterday, I was like, oh, this is what I realized about children. They're fucking a lot of energy, even one brilliant child, right. That is, is just being a child. That's turning 13, no problems. Still, a lot of energy goes out cause she's, you know, and they're fucking expensive. So I don't care. I mean, I don't, I know nothing about, I know 100th of what the costs would be, but I'm like, oh my God.1 (16m 48s):And we weren't even doing crazy shit. We were so like, for people to say like, oh, a family of four or five can live on 50,000, $50,000. I'm like, are you, I spent like $50,000 in three days that I don't have, what are you talking about?2 (17m 3s):This is why, I mean, I have avoided saying miss in the past, but this is why we make so much money and have nothing. I mean, we have our house, we have a house, we own a house and we own cars. Yeah. But we have nothing else. We have nothing else. We have no savings. We have nothing else because 100% of our money goes to this very expensive thing we've chosen to do, which is1 (17m 28s):Yeah. And, and I have so much, I'm like, oh my God. Just even light. Yeah. Just life. Just not even buying. I mean, we didn't go crazy. We didn't go to Beverly Hills. We're not like living. Okay. So we went to, she got in really late Friday night and we went to, then we slept in a little bit. And then we went to the beach, went to my favorite beach, which is a unibrow beach who I found out was a terrible ruler that killed a lot of indigenous people, which is sad. But anyway, yeah. Paradise, Sarah that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, man. I thought he was a Franciscan monk. I don't know my okay. I don't know.1 (18m 9s):Anyway. So it was like, oh, you know, he killed a bunch of indigenous people. I'm like, oh, that's great. Anyway. So we went to that beach in long beach, my favorite beach. Cause it's super chill. It's not a scene. It's not like Malibu. It's not like it's like down home. I love long beach. Right. And I also have an affinity to long beach because my ex lived there who passed away. So I like long beach, a lot. I have like special memories of that. And so we did that. We went, we ate like I now, because we moved to the pandemic. I had no reference for good food in my, in my neighborhood, in Pasadena, in LA none. So I was like, all right, we're gonna use this as an opportunity to explore dude, look, it has no, it doesn't hold a candle to Chicago.1 (18m 55s):Cause that's just how, you know, Chicago. I always tell people like Chicago is the best food and you'll die of a heart attack, but like, you'll eat the best food. We found great restaurants that we ate at. We, so we did a lot of eating. We did a lot of walking, walking around. We did some walks, some hikes. She obsessed with my dog Doris. And she was really, really good with her. Like trained her. Like she's really, she and her brother are both really into training dogs. So she did a lot of training with Torres, which I kept up zero. And then I just, I just don't care. And then I just don't, that's the truth. And we just really spent time together talking about life and about, you know, her, her life as a 13 year old and teenage stuff.1 (19m 42s):And, but it was, it was only, it was like she got in Friday night, she was here Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day, Monday, all day. She left Tuesday afternoon. I was so exhausted. I was like, I don't know. I have. So again, I have so much respect for her parents and people who are engaged with their kids. That's what I'll say. Like people who actually are trying to fucking be engaged. It's it's insane. I don't know how anyone has time to do anything else. Let me run this by, You know, I go into my little phases with the content I'm consuming and right now I'm really deep into con reconsider.1 (20m 31s):This is an old love that I kind of got away from drag race. Oh, right. Yeah. And I never had this thought before and I'm not, I don't have a judgment about it really either way. It's truly just a curiosity.2 (20m 47s):Curious to know what your thoughts are. Did you ever watch1 (20m 49s):That show? So I watched it a long time ago when it first came out. Did they remounted like, is there's different incarnations?2 (20m 57s):Yeah. They're on like season 13 or something like that. Yeah.1 (21m 0s):I watched it at the beginning when I also got into project runway and I got into America's next top model and all that stuff. Yeah. I, I, it wasn't my thing. It just didn't, it didn't compel me. Like I wanted it to love it and I, it's not, what is it about me? It is that, or the show. It's not my type of reality show in that. I just don't care enough. It's you know, about fat, like the fashion, the fashion. I, I'm more interested in the psychological component and at least at the beginning, it wasn't a huge part of the show.2 (21m 45s):Yeah. Well, for me it is the clue. Remember on star search when they used to have acting that acting component and it was so boring to watch, you know, because it's just not the same as singing and dancing. Right. Even I, as a little kid was like, this is boring. I didn't want to watch the acting part of star search. So we don't have an acting reality competition show. Drag race is the closest thing we have to because drag is theater, you know, it's creating character it's it's and, and there, the art has elevated to such a degree that the people who are really killing it are doing things that you would not imagine are drag and they're not wearing breastplates and they're not, they're just there.2 (22m 37s):And it's part of this whole concept of gender fluidity, which I'm really interested in. But my, my question is, is it inherently sexist that these men are doing female impersonations, right? Because, and a big part of it is the humor. And I just had this mode of being like, wait, is the fundamental conceit here that we're laughing at men being women, because why would you be a woman when you can be a man? I just, yeah, it may not be. And, and many, many drag artists may be feminists may consider themselves feminist.2 (23m 22s):I think RuPaul is not necessarily a feminist and he's not, he's not necessarily anti-racist. I mean, I think he's problematic in his own way, but it just occurred to me like, what am I laughing at this idea about just being a woman? Are we, are we trivializing? And we're making it frivolous.1 (23m 43s):It's so interesting. Like, I mean, think that it goes, what comes to mind is also like, how do the artists identify? Like, do they identify as, as, as non, you know, non-conforming or, or, or, or how, how did they feel?2 (23m 60s):Right. That's been an interesting evolution in the show actually from the first season. I think they they've had, they had at least one person who through the course of doing, it said, actually, I'm not, I don't really want to do drag. I want to be a woman. I am a woman. There's, there's been that. And I haven't really followed it closely, but there has been some controversy about like, well, if you have a woman, a trans woman on the show, then is it still drag? Right. So there's all these questions. I don't really know where that debate sits at the present moment, but I do know that very many people who consider themselves drag artists don't consider themselves men in any way.1 (24m 43s):So it's like, right. I, so that, that then leads me to be super curious about yes, like can cat it become one. It reminded me of Shakespeare when she experienced time pretending to be women. And it was always, you know, women weren't allowed to be actors or whatever, and they, and they also like, you know, they would make fun in a higher sort of, even a intellectual way. They were making fun of the, the weaker sex, whatever. So, yes, I think there's a part of it that we're just laughing at the horror show that is being a woman. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was I think you're onto something when, if we can transform it from being about that, to being about elevating art too.1 (25m 29s):Like when you said things that you wouldn't that piques my interest, wouldn't consider quote, drag. That is like, where I think we're headed in theater, right?2 (25m 38s):Like, oh yes, we must be. I mean, if we are to survive, we must be headed in that way.1 (25m 44s):Can you give me an example of like what, what you wouldn't consider drag that is like,2 (25m 50s):I got there's this drag artists named Sasha Valore and sh I'm right now, I'm on season. I forget if it's eight or nine, it might be nine. And she Sasha the lore does L well, first of all, and I think he identifies as a man. He does his art is political and intellectual. And he's one of these people who doesn't wear fake breasts. He does, he, what he does is he covers his nipples with pastries and, and, but builds the most beautiful garments around a look around an idea blend.2 (26m 31s):And, and it's rough. What I love is when it's referencing so many different things, when he explains his outfit later, he's like, well, this is a reference to Marlena Dietrich. And this is, this is a reference to, you know, the, how the gay culture in Russia exists because it's, you know, it's illegal to dress in drag there and, and homosexuality is not outright illegal, but it's, you know, obviously not a way that you want to go around presenting yourself. It's just this elevated conversation. I mean, the first time I ever saw actual drag was in Las Vegas at a show, I was a teenager and I couldn't believe I'd never seen it before.2 (27m 15s):I couldn't believe how much this man looked like a woman. And that's what the drag was. It was all about pretty much straight forward, like glamor looking as feminine as possible. And it has just come a long way since then. And now it's about, it's really just about embodying characters.1 (27m 34s):So yeah, you love storytelling. So this is what I'm getting at from the Disney thing. And from this is that you love detailed nuance, researched and referenced storytelling. Totally. That is your jam. So2 (27m 51s):It was my mind when, when all of these disparate things can come together into one cohesive piece of art. That's what I like in plays. That's what I like in books. That's what I like him.1 (28m 1s):So that's really interesting to know. Like, I think also like, yeah, for me, what I like is yes, super detailed, specific thought out things like I remember my favorite thing as a kid was pop-up books that had teeny little hidden parts that you wouldn't expect to have a tab that have it. That was my fucking jam. I was like, that is what I like about television is when there's callbacks or references or little Easter eggs, or like where you're like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Did you notice that the, you know, like I get into that because it means ultimately that people fucking care what they're doing.1 (28m 45s):Yeah,2 (28m 46s):Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. That's what really gets you. That people care Today on the podcast we are talking to Rebecca, Rebecca is an actor. And if you live in Chicago and see theater, there's a very good chance that you've seen her on more than one occasion in more than one brilliant star Trek. She also does film and television. She's got actually a television series, 61st street. She's in Candyman, that's out in theaters right now.2 (29m 26s):She was in one of my favorite shows, easy, which featured a lot of great Chicago actors. We didn't really talk about any of that. We talked about her as dying love for Chicago theater and her absolute respect for the actors that make it happen. So please enjoy our with Rebecca Spence3 (29m 52s):Podcast or a voiceover.2 (29m 55s):What's the matter with you? Why don't you get with it podcast or be a professional podcast? It's so easy. Honestly, you just break right into the market. You get tons of downloads. And3 (30m 9s):This is what I hear. It's amazing that I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. I don't know.2 (30m 14s):I will say the number, the apex of active podcasts or podcasts that were downloadable in the pandemic was 2 million up from 750,000 before the pandemic.3 (30m 29s):I absolutely2 (30m 30s):Believe it's trending back down because I think people realize like it's kind of a lot of work to maintain something every week. So, you know, we're just hoping to get back into that sweet spot. Maybe even less people will do it and we'll get down to like half a million. So then we'll really have a chance. Anyway, congratulations, Rebecca Spence, you survived theater school. Wait, wait. You're, you're looking, you're looking like you don't agree with me.3 (30m 59s):I, I I'd like to reframe it a little bit. I, I survived a theater major. I did not survive the grad school audition process. I Did not into the theater school.2 (31m 18s):We've often said we should call it. We should really call this. I survived my desire to be famous, whether you became famous or not, you know, like you have to contend with your, with your desire for us,1 (31m 29s):Never went to grad school for you went to undergrad and you got a theater major, and then you, and then you went to you, you auditioned for grad schools and didn't get it. What, how could Rebecca Spence that fucking get into grad school? Are you kidding me?3 (31m 43s):No. What I was doing, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. So I, but I can say that my audition process for grad school is what brought me to Chicago and, and made me fall in love with Chicago. And ultimately helps me choose Chicago as a home base, which is where I've had my education. I, my entire education in theater has been through observing and watching people very, very, very good at what they do. And2 (32m 15s):Just observing or asking people. I mean, you said you didn't know what you were doing when you were auditioning, but3 (32m 21s):Yeah, I went to my, I had, I don't know anything to compare it to. I think I had a great theater experience in, at my tiny little school. We had a three professor department and they were wonderful. I, I looked at some conservatories for undergrad and I just wasn't entirely sure if that was what I wanted to do. Cause I didn't know anything about professional theater, not a thing I grew up in, in, in Texas. I had, I think I saw maybe one professional production.3 (33m 2s):I had a friend whose parents were into musicals and they gifted me with an evening to go see Phantom of the opera with Linda ETR of all people. So I'm like, if you're going to get an experience seeing it, that was great. But I knew I wasn't a musical person. I didn't have that kind of gift. And I didn't know what, like I never had seen regional theater. I had never gone to1 (33m 29s):Like a play3 (33m 30s):Play. No, I think my parents took me to a community college production of glass, menagerie,1 (33m 39s):Light fodder for a child have to say like, what is coming forward for me when you're talking about, you're not the first person to say like a musical with the first introduction to any kind of acting and they get a bad rap, sometimes musicals, but they're a gateway for so many kiddos. It's like magic. I'm like obsessed with musicals now.3 (34m 7s):Yeah. I I'm the youngest of three girls by a large margin. My sisters are nine and 11 years older than I am. And so they would put on plays and then stick me in them. So I was kind of dressed up a lot and they'd be like, go say this. And I would do that. And I've got1 (34m 27s):Actors now. What's that? Are3 (34m 29s):They actors now? Okay. No, not at all. No. We just had very active imaginations. And so I, but I loved it. I, I always wanted to be, I had a very active imagination and, and wanted to, I knew I wanted to act like I, I want it to be on silver spoons. Oh,1 (34m 50s):Well, here we are facing. I always, I always thought that the line was here. We are faced to face a Comella silver spoons. Somehow someone informed me that Kamala, wasn't a real word. You guys. And so I was like, wait, what do you, they were like, what did you just say? They're like, say it again. And they were like, you know, that's not the line, but anyway, you want it to be in silver. Did you want to be on like, Ricky's like sister or anything? Like you just wanted to be in that world?3 (35m 26s):Oh no. I had a whole, I had a whole plot line. Oh yeah, no. I was also going to be adopted into the family. Oh yeah. They were, I, I was also going to be adopted into the family, but then of course we were going to become love interest. Of course it's very twisted. I was, I was quite convinced. I, you know, Aaron Gray was going to be my mother. Oh. I also loved buck Rogers. So it was a big club look, Roger. So I kind of followed Erin gray. I thought she was quite possibly the most glamorous woman I'd ever seen. And that's not true.3 (36m 6s):Doris Day was, but I wanted to be parented by1 (36m 13s):Yes. I mean, that's like me and like my modern day telling Brian Cox, I wanted him to be my new father. Right. And that didn't, he was like, people have told me that before. It was actually, it's a real thing. So like, okay, so you, you want it to be that. And then how did that translate Rebecca into like actually studying it? Because like, how did you know? It was a thing3 (36m 37s):I started doing a lot of plays in church. I did a lot of church. Like I was married about 12 times. It feels like, and I remember taking, I remember my like little, my first like actual play. I remember, I think I had been four and I was married and I took it really seriously. And the little boy who was playing Joseph, who also happened to be named Joey was not taking it seriously. And he kept taking his little robe and throwing it over his head. And I remember being livid, absolutely livid. I just was, I was so disappointed because I really felt like I was giving off as many, like holy maternal vibes as I possibly could.3 (37m 26s):And he, he wasn't up to the task.1 (37m 28s):Did you find it, did he get fired or like, did he get recast recast?3 (37m 33s):I I, no. No, no. I mean, my memory is being up in front of the, I don't remember any group kind of rehearsal process. I just remember being up there and holding my little baby doll and feeling very pious Over. And Joey was like screwing with a shepherd.1 (37m 54s):That's fantastic. I am Joey, by the way, I would be the Joey. I'd be like doing dance moves and they'd be like this one, but here's the thing3 (38m 3s):Laughing. And that's why it was because people were laughing and they, you know, he was drawing attention and laughing. And I was like, I don't remember this being a comedy. This is a comment1 (38m 19s):Here's, what's interesting about that story for me is that you w I've never worked with you as an actor, but I know from being around you and seeing you work, that you are not enough, and this is not, well, I'll just say it like, you are like a consummate per actor. Like you, you take this shit seriously, which I adore, which I actually learned from people like that. But like, you are very kind and lovely, but you also are a fucking professional actor. And there is like, I know that sounds so obvious, but you know what I mean? Like there are people like Joey that fuck around at age four, which is fine. He's four. But like the fact that you didn't fuck around as Mary at age four, I think is actually an important thing in your, in your history because you take this shit seriously.1 (39m 7s):Also. You're like you work all the time, which is fantastic, which I don't think there's a coincidence there. That's all I'm saying. That's all. Yeah.3 (39m 19s):Thank you. I mean, I knew I wanted to do, I played a lot alone. I mean, I was alone all the time. So I was constantly like perfecting different personalities. I mean, because I moved as much as I did, we moved every two and a half to three years. I had like an opportunity to like, be put into different scenarios. And that was just like a playground for me to, to, well, first of all, it was survival. It was trying to figure out where am I? How do I fit in? How do I make friends? What what's like that group of people doing and how do I sort of evolve and adapt. So that they'll speak to me.1 (39m 57s):Did you move because of your family? Were you a military situation?3 (40m 2s):God's military? My, my father was an Episcopal priest, tiny segue. I listened to your podcasts and I'm the one that, that I just delighted and was listening to Siler. Thomas. I knew Siler Thomas from church camp. I had no idea Seiler Thomas. Wasn't cool. We, I grew up sort of adjacent to, to him. He's older than I am. So he was in a much like cooler hipper, older church crap. And, but we went to like all of the same, like regional functional things.3 (40m 47s):Cause my father was an Episcopal priest. And so he was very active in youth stuff. And so I went with him. That's how I know Seiler camp counselor. And I was a camper and I had no clue that he was a theater person. No, I can't2 (41m 5s):Wait to tell him. I can't wait to tell him3 (41m 7s):We reconnected sort of over Facebook, but I haven't seen him, but I listened to his entire podcast and I, I, I got really, I got really excited.2 (41m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's fantastic. What I would have done if I had to move every couple of years is I would have pretended that I was British. When I came to a new school. Did you ever adopt new, like a really different3 (41m 31s):Personality? No, I couldn't. We were always sort of presented, like we were kind of presented as a family so that wouldn't have ever worked out for me. I did have a friend though in the sixth grade, my friend, Susan. And it was the first time we in, I was in Waco, Texas, and we went to all the sixth graders, went to one school for me, entire city were busted into a sixth grade center and we would rotate classes and she, and I would come up with like each class that we were in. We would have completely different personalities. We would like today where the really loud Rawkus girls and today were very shy and reserved, but today where the pranksters.3 (42m 17s):And1 (42m 18s):So you did go to theater school cause that's all we did. So there2 (42m 23s):Starting at four years old, you started your year to school3 (42m 25s):Training.2 (42m 28s):Yeah. So when you finally, when it was time for college, you were considering conservatories, but decided not to. How did you pick the school that you went to Hendrix?3 (42m 41s):I picked Hendricks because they had a theater program and my parents said that I had to be within a day's drive. And so they said, we can, you can go to school, but we have to be able to be able to drive to you within 12 hours, if anything happens. So I went 10 and a half hours away to two Hendricks college in Arkansas and had a pretty campus. And I, I knew, I, I knew I wanted to do theater. I had started doing more professional place, not professional, but, but really high quality plays in high school.3 (43m 21s):And I knew that I wanted to keep doing that. I really loved it. I just sort of disappeared into that. And that was, that was a safe way to build quick family, you know, do you found your people really fast? And I, I, that, that felt good to me. So I really enjoyed it. And2 (43m 41s):Were they known for having a great theater department?3 (43m 45s):No, but they built, so I did my freshman year, we moved in the middle of my eighth grade year and I had one freshman year in a, in a really small, small town in Southeast Texas or S yeah, it was near the coast and that didn't, that didn't go so well for me. And I ended up being sent to boarding school.1 (44m 13s):What did you do? Were you depressed?3 (44m 15s):Very poor choices and trying to, in trying to, to fit in, what is it,1 (44m 21s):Does that mean? What does that mean? Did you smoke cigarettes or like kill people? What happened like3 (44m 27s):In the middle? No, I, I had some substance stuff happened. I found the substances are pretty early in like, like an eighth grade. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we, we lived in the town that I lived in was known for grass farming and rodeo, and we didn't have anything to do. There was no, there was no movie theater. We didn't have a Walmart. We didn't have a skating rink there. It was,1 (44m 57s):It's like Footloose the toast.3 (44m 60s):So what we did is we went out to fields and drank like, that's true. That was what you did. So I, I, I wanted to do that. So I drank a lot and then I got caught a lot. And so my parents had a panic and sent me to boarding school in Austin, which they had a, really a growing theater department. And by the time I graduated, they had built this huge complex. So my senior year was the first year they sort of became an art school. So I kind of said goodbye. I mean, our first production was like, I remember they flew in some flats from Las Vegas.3 (45m 42s):I want to say we did guys and dolls, but we had like actual professional flats. And it was like my senior year. I was like, oh my God1 (45m 51s):Star, were you the star Rebecca? I was3 (45m 53s):Adelaide Adelaide. And then I got to be the stage manager in our town. So that was, but of course I, I didn't know what that meant. I wanted to be Emily,1 (46m 5s):Emily, of course. And then there were3 (46m 7s):Like stage manager and I was like, what? I'm stage managing the play? Like, I clearly hadn't read the whole play. I just read what I was like. I didn't know that that meant I had more to do. And it ended up being like a really, really meaningful, beautiful experience.2 (46m 24s):And just getting back to like the making. Cause I, I really love talking about making bad decisions. Would you say that you kind of did the, there is a trope of a preacher's daughter getting in to trouble? Is that what happened to you? Yeah, it was a rebellion against,3 (46m 43s):I mean, I, I just, you know, is there either the really, really good girl or the really, really bad girl and I, I, I didn't want to be the really, really,1 (46m 56s):Really hard position to be like, I can't imagine, like, even if your parents are like the nicest people there, again, there's a status thing that happens when there's someone in the community is touted as a certain thing. Like it's like royalty a little bit in America. Like we don't have, you know, so it's like you it's like, and then you're expected to behave a certain way. And as much as I had, like, I would say very little care and guidance in some ways I also didn't have a lot of pressure to be a certain way because we were all just like, there was no title. Like my parents didn't do anything. So it's, it's a tricky situation. But what I'm, what I'm also noticing is that the, the poor decision making and the drinking and they're getting caught actually was, it led to some really good fucking theater like that.1 (47m 46s):You went to Austin and you got to do like really good acting work. So it worked. I mean, you know, it wasn't a, it wasn't an all a bad thing. So you were like, yes,3 (47m 58s):I have learned more from my, my failures than I have ever learned from my successes. And I've had a lot of failures. I've had a lot of,1 (48m 8s):You know, something that I can speak to from being in like an insider in Chicago or formerly, and now in California, but being at a Chicago actor is like, everybody, I want to talk about the pressure in Chicago. So you are one of those people in Chicago that everyone's like, oh, Rebecca Spence books, everything. And I know it's not, I listen. I'm not saying it's true. This is what I'm saying. Let's get to the heart of the thing that I want to ask, which is from being on the I'm now on the outside looking in. Right. So what is it like? Cause that's always something that I heard and it has actually very little to do with you with other people's shit.1 (48m 48s):Right? It's not, I'm not saying you are doing anything, but what I'm asking as a woman and a performer, what is it like? And it's easy for me to do now because I'm in LA. So I don't give a, you know, like it's like, what does it feel like to have that kind of pressure of people, first of all, are you aware of it? That people are like Rebecca spins, books, everything. And then how does that affect you? And do you want to tell them to go fuck off? Or are you like, I work really hard.3 (49m 14s):Well, this, if this I'll take it two steps back, because this is a Testament to how much I, I love and admire Chicago theater. My understanding, I, I didn't get into theater school because I sabotage my auditions because I didn't know what kind of an actor I wanted to be. I actually, I choked. I freaked out because I thought that if you wanted to be an actor that meant that you wanted to be famous. And, and so I went to NYU, I came to Chicago to audition for theater school that I did the errata and auditioned for NYU Tisch.3 (49m 56s):And then I crashed the Harvard art. I didn't know you could crash. And somebody said you did. So I just got in line and I crashed the Harvard auditions. I made it to the final rounds of, of Tish. And I flew to New York and had a solid panic attack. I just, I didn't know anything about New York. I had, I came from tiny town in Texas. I had never been to Chicago. I had never been to New York. I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't know how to get around. I, I met Zelda. I met, you know, I did all the stuff. I was like, I can't afford this. I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know what I'm doing. And I, I P I straight up chokes and, and really sabotage my own audition.3 (50m 40s):But I liked Chicago and my husband got a job here and we moved here and then somebody said, you know, I needed to find a job. I didn't even know. They were like, what about the Goodman theater? And I, I was like, I don't even know what that is. And I didn't know what, like actual regional theater was. And I ended up getting a job in development at, at the Goodman theater, because I was too scared to act. Cause I thought I don't actually know what I'm doing. I didn't know how to do like prepare a monologue very well. I had done that my senior year in college. Like we prepared one monologue. I didn't know like how to go through that whole process. But I started working at the Goodman. I started watching, I saw Chicago actors come on stage.3 (51m 24s):And it was people like Mary Beth Fisher, people like Carmen, Roman people like Deanna Dunnigan. Like people, people like Ora Jones. Like that was when I started hearing when they were like, oh, oh, oh my God. Or Jones is going to be on say, oh my God, Amy Morton. I'm like, who wait, who are these people who wait, who are these people? And like, people that I started hanging out like the theater crowd, when they started speaking about these people and their work ethic, I was like, that's what I want. I want to be a well-respected name in a medium sized town.3 (52m 5s):That's that to me is how I know I've made it. If people are like, oh, oh, we want to go see that show because I guarantee you, you're going to see someone who has put in the time, put in the effort, they're going to bring nuance. They're going to bring, you know, a craft to it. That was my goal. That's. And so when I hear that, there's part of me, that's like, I still don't know what I'm doing, but the little ego part in the back of my brain is like, it's what we've always wanted.1 (52m 38s):Yeah, no.3 (52m 39s):I wanted to be a respected actor in a town that who, whose work? I respect so much. I fucking love Chicago actors. And I love Chicago theater. I don't think there's any better theater in the country. I think that, that the work ethic and the quality of people that go in and do the work and bring, bring their hearts and their souls to it. That's all I've ever wanted to be a part of. So when you say, when you're like, oh, she works all the time. I'm like, I, I, I don't, I mean, I do work, but there's part of me. It's like, oh my God, maybe we're doing it. Maybe1 (53m 17s):I can tell you right now, Rebecca Spence, that you are doing the thing. Because when I saw you in, what was it? Every brilliant thing is that the, It was, it was beautiful. And when I saw it, I was like, oh yeah, this is why she, she books. She works all the time. It's all relative. Right. But that thing of she works all the time. But like, this is why it actually is because you're good at what you do. And you're also, like you said, you actually really care about the thing we were talking about. Caring, like Disney really cares how they take care of their parks. Like, that's a, that's a segue, but like, that's the, the point is that you, you, the care that you put into your, your art is very desirable, right?1 (54m 5s):Like people want to work with that. And I think in Chicago, there is this sense of, we're just sometimes we're just there to make it to the next place. But what it sounds like for you is like, this is your place3 (54m 18s):I'm here. Like this is, I have no desire to move to New York. I have no desire to move. I'm doing exactly what I always like. I'm doing more than I ever thought I ever hoped that I could do.2 (54m 33s):Like, wow.1 (54m 34s):I mean,3 (54m 35s):I ever thought that I hook could hope to do so. I am. I'm always really grateful because I,2 (54m 46s):Yeah, honestly, I, I really think that more people could stand to do that, to have as their goal. You know what, one of the things that has come out of this glut of information put out us all the time is this concept of like exceptionalism and that you only really hear reflected or, or echoed or amplified stories of people who are exceptional. People who make millions of dollars or people who, whatever graduate Harvard when they're 10 years old. And it, one of the casualties of it is that I think people who are forming their identities don't necessarily get enough examples of people who are achieving anything in the middle, you know, any kind of other success.2 (55m 36s):And, and we know how much these extreme successes lead to like tragedy. In a lot of cases, we'd be doing ourselves a favor. If we could put more stories of like, I aimed for this thing, that is not the, you know, the outer limit, but is, you know, difficult to do, but was obtainable for me. I think that would be,1 (55m 57s):I think it's so good. And I think that the, the also the, the irony or whatever it is is that now you, you, in terms of, in terms of film and television, you do book that work too, but it's not because your it's like you, that was your goal. And, and all this theater stuff is just sort of there it's like that work comes because of the, what you have done build the platform. And I think Gina, what you're speaking about is nobody's building the fucking platform on which to stand. So it's like all of a sudden, they're just catapulted on this platform at the top of the sky, and there's nowhere to go, but fall. Right. So you've done the work to build the platform, Rebecca.1 (56m 40s):And I think that that's, that's rare that doesn't happen. And I think that's fricking amazing because you have something to stand on. You're not like floating in LA like on a pedestal about,3 (56m 53s):I wouldn't do well in LA. I don't think I, I don't think I would do well there. I could maybe hang out in New York, but I don't think LA would, I liked LA. I went out there for just a brief moment just to see what it felt like. And people are like, oh, you're going to love it, or you're going to hate it. And I didn't feel either way. I, I liked it. I mean, I, I, wasn't responsible for living there and getting rent, paying rent. I was staying in a friend's pool house. And so I had a place to live for a month and I had one audition. So I hiked, it did a lot of hiking, which was great. And I found little pockets there, but I've thought, I don't think I could live in a town that is just constantly cycling around one industry.3 (57m 41s):And that was kind of how I've always operated. I didn't want to go to a conservatory because I was like, there's way more to me than just acting like, I, I love, I, I like, I love what I do it's but it's not the only thing that drives me. Like I like theater and acting is, is the thing that I love most, most of all, but I really there, I love Chicago, so there's so much more to do than just2 (58m 10s):So true. So I keep thinking about a little Rebecca and little Joey, we've heard a lot of stories about people who, when they were in college, feeling resentful about P other people who they felt like didn't take it seriously enough people, you know, like a common thing is a person who had to work really hard to get a full ride because they couldn't have afforded it to go to college otherwise. And then to be there with people who are partying instead of, you know, spending a hundred percent of their time dedicated to what they're doing. Does that come up for you now working on something now, do you encounter people who you feel maybe aren't fully appreciating the opportunity they're being given or, or at this level now, are you mostly with people who take it very seriously to,3 (59m 3s):Yeah, I haven't had that. And I mean, most of the people that I work with are really just so excited to be in the room. I mean, I, I, I th I can think of one instance when I was doing non-equity theater in a basement somewhere for, for, I was the only female in the entire, in the entire production, like cast, crew, everything. It was, it was me. And it was a bunch of guys that were kind of jerking around a little bit and it affected, it was like a really serious play.3 (59m 45s):And I remember one of them pulled up a pretty, I don't want to say dangerous, dangerous is too extreme of a term, but it was a play. It was days of wine and roses, which was, and you know, where I have to, the character ends up drink in some, but they, they changed the bottle and put actual alcohol in it onstage, and didn't tell me. And so I chugged and had like a thing of alcohol and I was like, and nobody would fess up to it. Like nobody who did, who did it? Y'all who did that? Just like tell me, and no one would, would, would fess up to it.3 (1h 0m 26s):And then I was like, this sucks. Yeah. That's actually, that's the only time I can think of when I was like, I'm, I'm putting my heart and soul into it for the most part. No, I've never, I thought, what about upset or like, is everyone you're working with really like, to joke around too. I mean, I, yeah, what I do on stage, I take very silly, but I love to play. I'm a prankster. I liked to, I I'm very silly. I like to be silly. I, I love people that are having a fantastic time. And when I know that it's not like messing up somebody else's process I'll jump right in.3 (1h 1m 7s):Cause I, I like it. So I haven't had any, what's a, what's a favorite project. Gosh, there've been, there've been a lot. I did a production of a three person Cyrano up at Milwaukee rep and it was the first time I'd ever left Chicago. And we did a three person version of, of Cyrano where we did made all of the sound effects ourselves.3 (1h 1m 49s):And so we switched characters and jumped and I had never done anything like that of like sort of it wasn't devised, but it, it, it was much more deconstructed than anything that I had ever been a part of. And it was, and we toured it. We toured it all around Wisconsin and into Minnesota and I'd, I'd never done it. I'd never done summer stock. I had never done anything like that. And we were this little Merry band of three, plus our manager in a, in a van driving all over making, you know, I was, we would do the sword fights and I would, I would use the foils and make all the sound effects and sheets.3 (1h 2m 30s):And I just thought that was, it was, it was a great time. I love it.1 (1h 2m 34s):Why did you love it? Like what, what you just love doing the like, cause it was the first time you did it or like what was the feeling that you were like, this is fucking awesome. Wow.3 (1h 2m 44s):Creative thing. And we surprise so many people because we made like the set was made out of ladders and like we would make the set and I love surprising the audience cause they would come in, they'd be like, what the, what is this? Like, are you like, oh God, we're gonna watch people like create out of boxes. See it, like, you're going to take me on one of these like craft paper theater projects and what am I getting myself into? And with just like a little thing of twinkle lights and we, and I was working with these two phenomenal actors, Reese, Madigan, and Ted Daisy, who work at Milwaukee rep all the time out and, and Oregon Shakespeare.3 (1h 3m 25s):And they do a lot of Oregon Shakespeare work. And we just played, we played in, played in, played in plate. It was, it was playing. And yet then we would have these like gut punch moments and it, I had just never done anything like that. I had always been put in sort of very traditional roles and nobody usually allowed me to step outside of those boxes. And I, I did it and had such, such a good time doing it.1 (1h 3m 53s):That leads me to my question about beauty. Okay. So I'm obsessed with this idea of beauty as, as a, as it relates to how people that are, are how we relate to our own beauty or feeling lack thereof or so, you know, you, I would say for me, you like a stunning, stunning woman. And, and I would like to know what is your relationship like? I mean, it's a very, it's a very intense question, but I am obsessed with it. What is your relationship like to your own idea of your beauty? Because people, because what you said, really trait triggered something in me of like people usually put me in these traditional roles, which to me means like beautiful wife, a beautiful mother, a girlfriend, a blah.1 (1h 4m 46s):And as you age, like talk all about that because people will say like Rebecca Spence is gorgeous and I agree and I want to know what is it like? And I guess it's sort of hard if you're the fish in the water, but like tell me, what's your relationship like to the way your own looks?3 (1h 5m 2s):Sure. You know, I, I, I fully acknowledged that I've had duty privilege. Like I've fully acknowledged that that has been a part of my progress. And you know, it has been something that has put me in roles. Like I was never the ingenue ever. I was never the Juliet. I was always the lady capital. I was always, cause I had always had a lower register and I always looked mature. I had a very classic features. And so I was always like lady Croom, lady Capulets.3 (1h 5m 43s):I was always like the bitter aunt. And it's kind of, I was Jean Brody, you know, like I got to, to have these sort of larger power play or things, which I always wanted. I wanted to play more powerful than I wanted to play pretty because I knew that I was always viewed as such. And you know, it's, I know that I've been allowed into a lot of rooms because of how I look. I think maybe that's why my drive is so strong because I want to back it up.3 (1h 6m 24s):Like I don't, it's very important to me that I bring work ethic and integrity and talent to, to, to that so that as I age and as I grow and as this goes away or transforms and evolves that I'm leaning more on, on, on the thing behind it. And, and aging as, as someone who is it's real, like it's, it's a real ego check when you were always called in for the beautiful wife and now you're starting to be called in for, you know, other roles.3 (1h 7m 11s):And, and this isn't a it's I know how it sounds like I always like know and feel1 (1h 7m 18s):No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. You're the one, you're the first person that we've talked to that we've said like, Hey, like I remember we interviewed someone and Gina brought this up to someone and was like, you're very beautiful. Like, what's it like to, and the person could not acknowledge that they, because they were, I think, I don't know what was going on. I assume they were afraid to sound vain, but here's the thing. It doesn't sound any kind of way. What sounds, what it sounds is like, you're trying to make sense of the way the world sees you, which actually isn't about you either. It's like, and yet acknowledge the privilege.1 (1h 8m 0s):So you're the first woman that we've talked to that has said, yeah, like I acknowledged like this got me into rooms, but I want to back it up instead of pretending that it doesn't exist. Right. Because,3 (1h 8m 12s):Because for anybody to lie, I, you know, I remember being, I remember being in a room and I was like, I was like, you're beautiful. And she was like, oh, I just am fat. And I'm like, come on. You know, I was like, come on, don't do it. Like it doesn't, it's, it's, it's so insulting to people that, that, that, that, like, let's be the thing I've tried to do is truly be objective about my work and, and who I like to. So you have to be objective about, like, I know what I look like. I know what I bring in, so what else do I add to it?3 (1h 8m 52s):And I it's something that I will never forget because, and after that, I know when we were very young, who is doing really, really well right now, and she is, you know, a self identified fat actress and like that, that is how she works in the world. And it's, she's, she's just phenomenal. But she was the daughter of a, of a beauty queen. Like her mother was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And she was like having to grow up with, you know, under, under someone that was beautiful. She's like I had to watch watching her age was one of the most painful things I could have ever witnessed because she was so used to being the most beautiful woman in the world, in the room.3 (1h 9m 42s):Like that was her identity was she didn't have to do too much else because she was the most beautiful woman in the room. And when she aged and those things started to fade it, she had sort of lost her identity. And that, that conversation has stuck with me for forever. I was like, don't ever be the person that, that your exterior is the only thing you have.2 (1h 10m 4s):Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's awesome. I think it's fantastic that you acknowledge your beauty privilege, but I also acknowledge that there is a prison aspect to it too, or certainly when one is young, you know, where you can only be considered, you know, for a certain type of role, it can be just as limiting. And then if you go to that,3 (1h 10m 28s):Because of it, I mean, I I've been told, I lost I've lost roles where something is really, really, really excited about. And they were like, you're too, you are too classically attractive to be relatable. And I was like,2 (1h 10m 45s):Yeah,3 (1h 10m 46s):Being relatable is my jam. Right, right. What I worked so hard to do, I wouldn't be relatable. And I'm, you won't allow me out of that. And then of course, you know, I've got to sit back and I'm like, look, people have to face this kind of feedback on a completely dip. So, you know, I was like, then I mean that it sucked. And I, and I grieved that. I was like, but, but this is this industry that, and other people face that in tote for D for a myriad of different other reasons, they are told based off of how they look that they aren't right for the role. And I, I always knew that, but I was like, God, that sucks.1 (1h 11m 26s):And I'm thinking of like, yeah. And, and,3 (1h 11m 31s):And know it. And you don't want to tell anybody about it because no one, no one's going to be like, oh, that's horrible.1 (1h 11m 37s):Right. Right. I mean, it's this thing of you don't of course you don't want to, but I'm also just aware of like, like, I was obsessed with this whole story of Linda Evangelista who got face surgery, and then she finally showed her face and she looks fucking fine to me. Like, it's not about that. It's not about her face. It was about, it was no, no. I mean, literally it she's. I read the whole thing too. She, she calls herself deformed. She has like some fat that comes up over her bra3 (1h 12m 13s):Solidified. It's hard. Like, oh, that's true. Yeah. It's painful and hard. And,1 (1h 12m 20s):But the thing is like the, it is for me, what, what it brought forward was like from the outside, right outside, looking at Linda Evangelista, she's still one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen with her without her deformity. But it doesn't matter because she is not her identity was this model. Right. Which probably screwed her for life and also offered her privileges beyond my wildest dreams. Both are true. So I guess what it brings forward is like, everything about this journey is a combo fucking platter. You kinda have the privilege of beauty without also being in a prison.1 (1h 13m 1s):You cannot have the privilege of, you know, like for me, I kind of have the compassion that I have for humans. If I had not gone through what I had gone through as a child, especially an overweight child, like gum, it comes together. And I think we're so used to seeing people as, oh, that's Rebecca Spence. This is what she does. And this is how her life, it's not that way. And I think that's one of my life goals is to just show people through my writing and my work. Like this is a fucking combo platter. People like you don't get one way, like Linda Evangelista said, she feels like the most ugly person. And she acknowledged that she was a model and made millions of dollars doing it.1 (1h 13m 42s):So like, it's both, you're both, you're both things I give you permission. I give everyone permission to have both the prison and the privilege. I know it's not my job to do, but that's what I would wish on the world if I was running shit, which I'm not. So there we go. But anyway, that's my rant about you. I just really am focused on like asking women, especially like, what is it like, you know, especially as we get older to like change and it's a real3 (1h 14m 10s):Ego knock, I'm, you know, I'm not going to lie. I, I filmed something recently and I, my son went on, said, took a picture of the monitor and gave it to me. I was like, you know, I was like, oh shit. Okay.
Interview: We talk to Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker about a special moment with F. Murray Abraham, finding friendship in a cutthroat environment, having substance abuse and authority issues, mind-f***ery, the cloistered nature of conservatories, using skills gained at TTS on set, taking an eclectic approach to acting, the tricky dance of teaching an art form, PR Casting, Does a Tiger Wear a Necktie, when William Burroughs discovered a copy of the Fledgling Press, a zine which Dave created.FULL TRANSCRIPT:Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:08):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:10):and I'm Gina Pulice.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:11):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:15):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:20):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:29):So they concocted this plan to make A shelf in our library, like right above the door frame, that goes all the way around the room. So I am not kidding you. So, soJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:49):Pictures, pictures, put them on the website. Okay.Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:53):Here's the deal though? My son, my, my middle child is so smart. He has never helped us with these type of projects before, because he doesn't really like, he traditionally hasn't really liked working with his hands, but this time he wanted to, it was really his idea. He wanted to do it. And he's such a math brain that he insisted on doing heavy. Pre-planning like he made us model, not a, he's calling it a model. It's not really a model. he's like got a piece of paper. He drew plans for it. He did all kinds of measurements. He used. Yeah, it was great. And he goes, listen, if we don't plan it out like this, then we get halfway through and we run into a snag and then we stop working on it, which is exactly what the oldest one. And I have done on a number of projects, including building a full-sized Playhouse on our back -Yes ma'am yes. Ma'am. I spent thousands of dollars on wood and nails and power tools so that we could have this joint project of building a Playhouse. And we didn't think it through one single bit. We, we found some plans on the internet and we went through and we made it. I got, we got all the way to the roof and the roof is what did us in? We couldn't, we couldn't get up high enough on the thing. We didn't have a high enough ladder and it's not in a great enough position. We couldn't put the roof on it, sat there for a year. And then it was time for the bar mitzvah, which we were having the party at our house. So we had to, and we had to take the whole thing down and we never finished it. So the other one goes, listen, we're I don't want to do that. I don't want to go through all this work and give it up. So he planned it and boy did he plan it with an inch of his life and it's going up and it's looking great. And I will send you picturesJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:44):That is done. Oh my gosh. Merry Christmas. [inaudible] freaking Christmas. That's fantastic.Dave Dastmalchian (00:02:51):I have one other cute little story to tell you.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:55):I took, well, I told her, um, I told C's, um, hummus story is Sasha and Chrissy and Tilly. Oh. Saw them from afar. Um, we saw them outside. Uh, they're amazing. And they laughed so hard. It was. Yeah. So it's for people that don't know. I mean, we've probably said, I'd probably made you tell it like four times, but you, but my version, this is how I tell it is that, um, your daughter says, mom, what, what kind of stuff do they have to eat in prison? Do they have like bad food? And you're like, yeah, it's probably not that great. She goes like hummus? They cracked up anyway.Dave Dastmalchian (00:03:37):She's she's hilarious. So, um, I was sick yesterday and she came home from the bus. Oh, earlier in the day she had -I was taking her to school and this little girl had these really cute boots on these little there's some, some, Ugg, type boots. She's like, Oh, I love those boots. And I S and she had said something to me about it before. And I said, yeah, you know, I looked for those, but I couldn't, I don't see where they are. I, I, you know, I can't, I can't find any of the information for it. So she comes home yesterday. Oh, this is so sweet. She brings me a plate with sliced up bananas, um, something else, and the little container of yogurt that she got in her lunch that she brought home. Cause this is kind of sugary yogurt that I never buy for her Trix yogurt. And she covered it in saran wrap. And she wrote me a note. I get, well, note, and it's a picture of the two of us. And it said, mom, get, well soon. I love you. And you, and it says at the bottom turnover, turnover, they have such, she goes, I got the information about the boots!Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:04:53):I'm telling you. She's genius.Dave Dastmalchian (00:04:56):She writes, You can get them at col that's Kohl's or you could get them at Kohl's or, um, uh, TRG I T get at targetJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:05:12):She's genius.Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:14):She followed up this morning. She goes, so did you, did you check out Kohl'sSpeaker 4 (00:05:31):[inaudible]?Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:38):Hm. We've moved a lot. I mean, not as much as you, but we've moved a lot in the time that we've been together. 20 whatever years we probably moved, I don't know, 15 times and, or maybe less than that, but, uh, between 10 and 15 times. And we, one of the things that we lug around from place to place is a lot of mementos. A box of mementos turned into two boxes, turned into two boxes each. Now we have kids, they have their boxes. So we're at the point where not only because of this for other reasons, but we have to store all the mementos in a storage facility. This is the dumbest possible thing. I mean, it also has furniture from, Oh, it has furniture. But like, anyway, we store boxes in boxes. Probably those plastic tubs, you know, the big plastic tubs would probably have like six plastic tubs that are of mementos.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:06:40):Wow.Dave Dastmalchian (00:06:41):Aaron has, you know, the, the little plaque he got when he won a tennis tournament in eighth grade is it's like a lot of things. Okay. I've gotten better at paring things down. But then when you have kids, you feel like you shouldn't throw anything away because they're the ones who are going to be going through your stuff one day and who are going to be mad. If you didn't save all of their stuff. Now, of course you cannot save all of their stuff, but like, what's your stance on mementos? What do you keep? What do you toss? What's -do you feel guilty about it, et cetera?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:07:20):It's a great, that's a great topic. I, um, feel mixed. We have, so, yes, we've moved so much and we too have mementos. Um, there's the Marie Kondo, you know, that if it doesn't spark joy, but I don't really believe that. Um, I think people should, uh, do what they want to do for the most part. I don't subscribe to a minimalist thing, but I definitely feel like for everything you keep, you should throw out one thing. So, so, so that goes with clothes that goes, and it is really hard. Now, mementos are different because they have sentimental, they have sentimental value, but I'm remembering having to go through, uh, both dead parents' stuff. And most of it is garbage. Like most of them, most of it is like a lighter that my dad had that was engraved with someone's initials. That weren't his, why he probably stole it from somebody. But, um, but I was like, what, what, what? No. And it was a tremendous amount of emotional work to go through this stuff. And, um, yeah, I say get rid of, most of it. I get rid of most of it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:08:42):I mean, I think what it's about is, cause what, what I did with my dad is so when he died, I was right before I got married and he, so he didn't know that I got married or about any of my kids. So I think I really held onto stuff for kind of a long time, because it just felt like I didn't have time to grieve or process or whatever it is. So there are certain things that I, you know, you have your stages, like things you get rid of, like when Aaron's dad died, he came home wearing all of his father's clothes. He had his, and they were all too big pants and his shoes, well, that stuff has started to, it's been about a year, that stuff is starting to go away. So I remember the phases of getting rid of stuff. And it is something about like, you hold onto the, the stuff is like a placeholder for you doing your grieving. So it's like the more you do the work of going through the grieving that's then you, then you feel okay to get rid of the stuff. And the thing about what the kids is, I know something that they don't know, which is that it feels so precious to them now is not going to feel so precious to them. For example, when they go to college or move out and I say, we need to go through this stuff. Now we need to go through and figure out, you know, what you want. And I'm sure that they're going to want to get rid of a lot of stuff, but they also want to keep like, both boys did TaeKwonDo and went through their black belt. And the trophy for a black belt is like, as tall as a person, that's like five feet tall. Those are in storage. We went to storage to get out the Christmas stuff. And my oldest son, he picks up, he goes, this thing was really like a piece of junk. Like it's, you know, cause trophies are just made of plastic cheap metal. Yeah. So I, that was like, okay, you're going to want to get rid of this. That's a good thing. But with the smaller things, like really precious sentimental notes, I feel like keeping, but listen, not every kid or not, every person writes a card that's worth keeping, I'm sorry to say, butJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:10:58):Right. And what you don't and what, and I think what you're doing is by getting rid of the sub stuff is what you're actually doing is making your kids job easier when we all croak. So if you think about it that way, like I act, but they should be allowed maybe one tub each.Dave Dastmalchian (00:11:18):Right. And we shouldn't have to worry when it gets no, no, well, they don't, they only have one tub, but then they have things like the trophies or the other things that they don't want to get rid of. Yeah. I'm feeling like what we should do is it is a annual or at least every few years going through making sure this is still so, because it, it was only recently that the older two wanted to get rid of their schoolwork from kindergarten. Wow. Yeah. They really wanted to. And that's the other thing is like, if it is serving some emotional need, I cut it off. I don't want to cut off, but I also don't want to, I know how it is with the whole storage facility. We got a storage facility that's bigger than what we need. We're just going to fill it up like a goldfish, eating too much and filling up its bowlJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:12:05):And then their stomach explodes. Uh, but I was going to say something that you might do too, is if you're into any kind of ritual is w miles will burn. Um, we will burn stuff in a, in a, like a goodbye stuff. Like, um, if it's sentimental letters and stuff, now it, you know, there's not burning a kindergarten paper on, you know, aardvark, but, but if there's anything have some kind of ritual saying goodbye situation. Um, my sister and I, Oh my gosh. When we went to through the attic, there was a, like a 10 year period where everyone died. Right. And so we had 10 people's ashes. I'm not kidding you. My mother, my father, both three grandparents migrating at Ruth. It was crazy. So we didn't know what to do with all these ashes. We just dumped them in the garden. We are like, and we had a parade of ashes. We just had a ritual. We were like, goodbye, goodbye, aunt, Ruth goodbye. Then they all got mixed together, but we literally headed those cremations of like, not, it was like nine people, but I was like, so you don't want, you don't want stuff to accumulate that, that P that the kiddos are going to have to just go through and be like, I mean, the ashes were fine, but there was so much stuff that I was like, Oh my God, like pictures of people that you cannot name, those got to go. Yeah.Dave Dastmalchian (00:13:31):Right. What about though? Have you ever thrown something away? And then been like, Oh, I wish I hadn't got it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:13:39):But you know what? They were, it was bigger items, actually. Wasn't sentimental stuff. It was like, my mom had this, a couple of chairs and furniture. It was more big stuff. And it doesn't sound like you have tons of big stuff. Um, it sounds like it's more sentimental stuff. Um, but I, I mostly felt like that chair, I should have hold it. It held onto the chair and some of her of dishes and stuff like that. But at the time I was like, no, it's gotta go. It's gotta go. Um, so the other thing that I would say is don't, um, for people is like, don't make any decisions when you're in a heightened, emotional state, because you will save weird and you will throw out stuff that you will. So like, it's good that you go through it once a year. Not in a crisis, not in a, not, you know, after a huge event, but at like when you like a regular checkup to the storage place,Dave Dastmalchian (00:14:36):I think too, I just had this thought what I should do, especially with papers, take pictures, just take pictures of papers. I can, I can even make a book for each of the kids. Like here is five images of all the crap you wanted me to save that I didn't, but I took a picture of it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:14:58):Brilliant. You just thought of that. Brilliant. Yeah. You're a Marie Kondo in your own, right?Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:04):Aye. Aye. Listen, pursuant to our conversation about my home decor. I'm like, let's get rid of it. Let's get rid of it all. Like I have a China cabinet. I mean, come on. I, I, I mean, I have China. I have, I have tried, but I don't need to, it doesn't need to be displayed. Like, it's my prize possession. You know what I mean? It can just go to shelf.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:15:22):I guess that, that leads me to the question for you is, and it goes back to our other conversation, which is, um, do you think you just adopted that because it's what you thought you should do.Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:33):It's 100% that, because I, yeah, I, I learned at an early age, like I remember being on the younger side and, uh, going through something, I forget what it was, birthday, old birthday cards and throwing them away. And my mom being like, you're getting rid of them. You know, she keeps everything. She keeps her, yes, she keeps everything. But I, uh, my middle child is my, uh, icon in this way. At summer camp, you send cards, you know, you're in current and they like to receive mail. So I sent a lot of cards and he received a lot of cards. He comes home from camp. This is not this past summer. But the summary for her, I said, did you get all the cards I sent you? He said, yes, I did. And they were so great. And on my last day of camp, I looked through all the letters that you and Gran and I gave him a kiss through with the trash. And when he said it, I, I had this Pang of like, Oh, you throw them in the trash. But of course it served its purpose. The purpose was to give him something to remember us by while he was at camp it, then it was over. Then he was going to come home and be with us. He didn't need to hold onto it.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:16:53):It's not sentimental that way. No. What about clothing? Do you hold onto clothing?Dave Dastmalchian (00:16:58):No, no. I get rid of, I mean, I have my, I have my, I kept my wedding dress and I CA I kept like a few of the kids. Very first ones. These remember the onesies that you made, that you, you, we made at your house. I have the, I have not all of them, but I have some of those, but yeah, I don't get sentimental about clothing. Aaron does. Aaron has his high school, varsity jacket and his first pair of scrubs and his first doctor coat and all this kind of stuff. Oh, wow.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:17:30):Go through your clothing. And you're not a shopper. You don't like to shop for clothes.Dave Dastmalchian (00:17:36):Well, I like to have clothes. I just don't like to shop for them. Yeah, no, I go through, I, yeah, I'll have, did I forget if you were here, you saw my closet. We have, I've never seen your closet. It's technically a walk-in, but not really. It was a very small class. I have always had a very small closet. I've never, I know that if I had a huge closet, I would just collect a bunch of clothes. So it's kind of an and shoe. So it's kind of a good thing that I don't know. That's one thing we sort of keep under control. We, I throw out something maybe like once every week or once every two weeks I get rid of stuff. Really? It's the other stuff. It's the stuff that I feel like I'm supposed to have because I have kids or I'm supposed to have, because, because really a lot of the other people in my life are very sentimental errands. Very sentimental has. My mother is very sentimental. My kids are very sentimental. So I feel like I have to keep all this stuff for them. But I really don't.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:18:31):That was a China cabinet. Was that a purchase that you thought I should have this because I'm an adultDave Dastmalchian (00:18:36):Or did you inherit it? No, we were moving here from the city and we were just both like, well, we need a dining set. And we went to the furniture store was the first time I went to like a real furniture store and they had a matching dining table and chairs with the, with a China cabinet and a, uh, something else. We've got three big pieces. It's all crappy furniture. It was a waste. It was expensive. And it was a waste of money because all furniture that's made past bef you know, since 1950 is crappy furniture, um, dining table. Well, it's big, but it's, it's really like wobbly. It's crappy. It's crappy. So I, I think I'm going to, maybe after the holidays, get rid of the China cabinet, whole King thing. Like it doesn't give me any joy to look at it. It doesn't give, it's just like, here's where we put all the crap that we use on Thanksgiving.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:33):Right? It's more of a storage. It's not a showcase for anything special. What you need to do is get so many snow Globes that then you've got you put those in there, maybe, but that's a huge, you don't really need maybe a different kind of case for the snow Globes.Dave Dastmalchian (00:19:48):Something like that would give me joy, some little bauble, something like that. It's just plates and vases and, and somebody who is in my family has started a collection of something for me that I don't care for. But it's like, you know how it is, the person really wants to collect something for you. And they pick something. They, they have something that they collect and then they go, well, would you like a different version of this thing? I collect it. And you know, and I remember saying once, like, Oh, that's pretty. And next thing I know I've got my, what she considers to be my version of her thing. This is not my mother. I have to feel like I have to say this because this is not my mother. And it's, it's stuff that I feel that I have to make sure is out for when this person comes to my house.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:20:43):Understood, understood. I don't, you know, I think everyone like dead in my family. So I, I, I get free from some of that, like, but I do. There's a part of me that goes, Oh, someone is thinking about you that's collecting something for you. It just, maybe they would ask them if they could collect. You know, I don't knowDave Dastmalchian (00:21:05):To me that the collecting impulse, I don't relate to it. I mean, with the exception of maybe that I like these pretty snow gloves, I I'm not, I don't collect anything. And my mother collects everything. She does. She does. She collects, she has a China pattern. She does a crystal pattern. She collects, um, she's a big reader. So she collects books. She, yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:35):I remember I remember the house on Wayne, right? And it was a duplex. It was a two floor. She had a lot of nice stuff. She had a lot of nice stuff.Dave Dastmalchian (00:21:44):It is, it's all very nice, but it's, it's stuff. It's a lot of stuff. And I'm just finding that. I'm not as into stuff. As I thought I was,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:53):Well, I think the pandemic has done that to people too. It has increased for me. Anyway. It has increased my awareness that like, all this stuff is not going to save us from certain things.Dave Dastmalchian (00:22:06):Not from nothing. It's not going to save you from anything and you have to clean it and you have to store it and you have to move it. And you have to, you feel, for some reason you have to replace it. If it gets broken, like it's just a yoke, it's a yoke. And Aaron and I fantasize. When the kids leave, we're going to get a studio apartment. We're going to have no possessions. And we're going to just do whatever we want. That doesn't have anything to do with buying, maintaining, or storing stuff of anything.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:38):That's brilliant. I think that is a great plan. D my only caveat is please do it in California. That's all I have to say. Yes, yes.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:58):Today on I Survived theater school. We have the fancy friends, Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker. I call them fancy friends because that's what they are. They are fancy. They work. And they work all the time and they're delightful human beings literally think,Dave Dastmalchian (00:23:13):and they have fancy last name. I was making the episode art. I'm like, Oh, this is, of course these two have to have the longest, last name so that they really do. I've ever had. We'll just call him Dave. You guys have seen. Yeah. And you guys have seen them. I mean, not necessarily together, but, um, uh, Dave was his first film role was in, uh, the dark night. So he, I would love to have him back Sometime and ask about Heath ledger, because I bet that he's got a lot to tell about that anyway. So Dave has a, mostly a film career. He's also a screenwriter. He has written a few films that are excellent, including, um, Animals and, uh, All Creatures Here Below two excellent films. And John is a lot on television.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:24:07):Gotcha. Uh, he was on Jack Ryan as one of the big, big leads. And he, and they're in an outstanding film called Teacher together. So that's somethingDave Dastmalchian (00:24:18):Right. And the two of them wanted to do the interview together because they're such close friends and they shared a lot of memories. And it was interesting to have as it's our first duo. It was interesting to explore their friendship as a way that they both survived theater school. So please enjoy Dave, the small shin and John who can anchor.Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:40):You got to call her up again and ask her to do all right.Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:44):I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:25:06):Uh, w I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience, like together as well as a part, but like my first question for you is, did you love each other right away?Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:22):I don't, I don't know. John, did youDave Dastmalchian (00:25:26):Well, for sure,Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:30):Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. Uh, so I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gita were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John, um, was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place. And, um, it was hard to come into because it's such a competitive environment and it's such a, um, intense environment. And I was both competitive and intense. So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard, cause you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection.Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:27):You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such, uh, a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable,John Hoogenakker (00:26:46):I'm a cuddler.Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:47):sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw. Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star Wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.John Hoogenakker (00:27:16):Um, no, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and Iyisha and, uh, snuggling ghanaba, um, you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, uh, jeez, I just remember, uh, I remember Dave's, um, it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think, um, that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, um, such a driving force in Dave's career, um, is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity, and he's constantly pumping that into the world. And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. Um, and I think I was drawn to that in Dave, uh, yeah, from the giddy-up, butGina Pulice (00:28:10):Also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?John Hoogenakker (00:28:23):Uh, I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I, to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, um, there was so, uh, it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, um, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted, um, positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave, uh, just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really, uh, enjoyed and appreciated. And, um, yeah. And so I think that was, uh, that was, um, it was, it was Dave's, um, his, his sort of genuine vibe that I wasJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:29:20):Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ed ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, starstruck, I, but when I, but there is sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, um, I don't know. I'm just so glad you guys found each other and that you're friends. It's like, no, it's not. That's how I feel. Yeah. That's how I feelDave Dastmalchian (00:30:06):The work and outside of our mutual, passionate love for the theater acting film, um, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, um, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. Um, and obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff, but, um, you know, I've been through, uh, the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school you're taught, um, that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of, um, during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, um, and, and it was, it was, um, I'm very grateful, um, and, uh, many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, um, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely ups. We were in trouble a lot, um, because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And, uh, neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors that get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, um, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from, um, uh, Glen Gary, Glen Ross for, um, second year, uh, scene study work with Joe [inaudible]. And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're gonna, you're gonna get in on this heist, or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide by Bob Marley thing. And, um, and so we had to speak special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study, uh, workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And, um, I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus.John Hoogenakker (00:33:07):And it was where it was history of dramatic lit I think,Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:12):where nobody cheated. And he, um, he Through the fees that he was working on so quickly, and he was getting frustrated, like stop with the, stop with the presentation, like w Let's work these.John Hoogenakker (00:33:28):And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life!Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:38):He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh Eve kind of moment where we could, so we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, Whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like "that's F Murray Abraham!"]. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes.John Hoogenakker (00:34:01):Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other, like, well, that's all I had. And that's all I got Dave, you went toDave Dastmalchian (00:34:15):Slowik Turned to me and John and slowok. goes, "You guys!"Speaker 7 (00:34:18):You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it here? And John's like, yeah, let's do it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:25):What else is in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with? Uh, we, we may do, right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups. Um, and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But IDave Dastmalchian (00:34:45):Was so proud that day, even Though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life. And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school, we continue to collaborate. Um, I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life.John Hoogenakker (00:35:18):Dude, I wanna, I want to jump in because that was such, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. Um, so, so, uh, I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene and I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was giving to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of schmacting him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation.Dave Dastmalchian (00:37:01):[inaudible] mother.Gina Pulice (00:37:05):I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called Undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about as you look back at this time in your life now, uh, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this? How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:38:09):I'm just going to add a caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So, um, I, and, and I, um, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so, um, I, I just always am really hyper aware that like we want, um, say whatever you want, that's what I want to say, whateverDave Dastmalchian (00:38:36):The Vincentian Brotehrs called in the legal team, man, they're coming, you're talking to John and Hey, don't worry. You go first because I know.John Hoogenakker (00:38:52):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery. No. First of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys, uh, attended. Um, and that said, I don't feel like, uh, the mind fuckery that I, um, felt I was, uh, that I received was the result of, uh, some jerk cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we -? You know, who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point. It was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was, uh, at that time intensely cloistered. Um, didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all, uh, to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. Um, I had competed in debate, so I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school. Um, my family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt. Um, and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Um, cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Um, th th that's just, let's just call that an opening, uh, Sally and Dave, you can share it for a little bit,Dave Dastmalchian (00:41:03):Like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated, complex filled with nuance. Lots of gray area came from a tradition steeped in some really, uh, important and impressive theater movements that were more, um, militaristic and disciplinary and really, um, intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, saved me on an almost daily basis sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice, and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations, um, was really important. I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the Joe Slowik way. Here's the Bella Itkin way. Here's the David Avcollie way, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, um, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business. And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to, um, mental wellness with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power, um, in there.John Hoogenakker (00:42:53):It's unbelievable when you look back on it.Dave Dastmalchian (00:42:57):When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced and having sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I hope they'll watch. Um, and I also think that, uh, that there was some abusive behavior, um, that I'll never understand other than they were human beings who, um, you know, who were just people that, um, were, uh, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time. And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of, of tears, of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, um, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful because I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is I really go, wow. That was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happen that I can't believe, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working now.John Hoogenakker (00:44:37):I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not, uh, emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned, uh, as an actor. And I'm talking about like, uh, technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with. So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where, um, you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. Um, and there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child, um, for the realities and the emotional rigors of, uh, of what could end up being a career in a full life, doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child. And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, Oh, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, Oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, uh, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week. And some people are, uh, become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then, um, were kept on after the first year, after the second year. And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell ya, uh, I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear. Um, prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and His being like, you know, some of you will Graduate. Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year and then half the remaining are going to get cut. The second year, that to me was like deeply, uh, ingenuous disingenuous, because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation. And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. Um, we did, uh, an intro in second year, lot called Laughing Wild, and it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight everyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:11):This is fucking crazy! Yeah.John Hoogenakker (00:49:13):And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said Jason Pierce had really long hair. Uh, Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was Hunter, uh, Andre. Um, and it was kind of like Ilko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our haircut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess. Um, you know, cause he'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:49):Totally, no, I mean, I, I think it begs the, so I guess the bigger question here for me and I don't know what you guys think, but, um, th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, um, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And w when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal knife fight at 17 with Hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but that's, that's a big question.Dave Dastmalchian (00:50:41):I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, uh, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair. As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question. Cause I do think like right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a Hollywood audition until they're 18. Um, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18. But yeah, it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.John Hoogenakker (00:52:09):I will say that, you know, I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with, um, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Greg Finkler, Brad Armacost, um, all these amazing, uh, classic classic Chicago actors, um, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, uh, it was the first show in the, in their new space. Um, so they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play. Um, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started. And that was when I saw like these Titans, uh, kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah, I went for another one at PR I didn't get it. Yeah. But it went to blah, blah, blah. And he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends. Um, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college. If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals.Gina Pulice (00:54:08):Yeah. Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a conservatory for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did you pick DePaul?Dave Dastmalchian (00:54:37):For me, it was, it was, uh, it was the, it was fate. It was, um, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was, it was like a miracle of God. And to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, um, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning, um, academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. Um, but I was really, uh, excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school. And I didn't see the path towards, um, the academic dreams that I had for college, um, in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of applying to like arts programs or theater or following a track and drama and hearing that was mindblowing. And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately up to Chicago and my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did, uh, a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie? And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter, uh, very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete and I knew the demands of that and that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. Um, and I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been given this, um, this, this huge scholarship, uh, called the Stanley andJohn Hoogenakker (00:57:35):Good for you, Dave, we're all happy for you.Dave Dastmalchian (00:57:39):That's my story. I'm done as John, just going into the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of Debt as well because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to goJohn Hoogenakker (00:57:58):Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:03):Gina can tell you where we lived on Lill. What was Our landlord's name?Gina Pulice (00:58:11):Earl Pionke!John Hoogenakker (00:58:15):was Lill, the place. It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources? Like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, uh, the deck collapsed right there. Yeah.Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:31):And the tanks? remember the Space Time tanks, John. The floating tanks?John Hoogenakker (00:58:33):what's that?Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:33):Didn't we go do that together? The tanks, the, that the, the deprivation. The sensory deprivation ones?John Hoogenakker (00:58:38):Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, right there. One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for a, no dude. I'm so happy. So that'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Um, good for you. Um, I didn't get a scholarship. I, uh, no, we, no, I totally very similar story except I was not going to be an athlete, uh, ever. Um, I was in, uh, I was, uh, in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, uh, because I got, um, braces and my dad who was a, a local actor in Charlotte, um, was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, um, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave? Yeah. Um, and, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to, uh, senior year, the drama teacher and I'd never taken drama at the theater at the, uh, high school, you know, she would, uh, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach, uh, Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools, see where you can study. And we, I looked into like, uh, a Julliard I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there. And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife, um, auditioned at, uh, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. Um, and I, uh, I came in like late January, early February, uh, and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house. Um, and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned in to this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable. And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, um, and I did, uh, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, gonna be probably like, does a tire tire wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the location for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done, um, a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck. And, um, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. Um, and then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe, and maybe John and possibly bill Brown. Um, and, uh, and I left completely dejected and I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Um, you know,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:02:06):So I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't, I think I bombed, But no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that.John Hoogenakker (01:02:26):Well, that's, you know, I that's so, uh, indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and be able to good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go Places said, no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, uh, but yeah, so we left and I had forgotten my watch. Cause, you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. Um, and, uh, so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch? Um, cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well, uh, thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, Oh, well, he bombed it. He did very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, uh, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you we're sending out a couple, uh, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really great. But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for, because if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state, um, or community college in Charlotte because I mean, I had, I had, uh, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And, uh, didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted, uh, universities in my home state.Gina Pulice (01:04:18):According to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Uh, uh, yeah, right. Um, I got the Blues and Peter pan, Peter pan,Dave Dastmalchian (01:04:33):The, uh, we did the, um, uh, uh, Glengarry Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. Uh, we worked together, uh, doing that, uh, outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something. So, yeah. But while we were those first four years, and then in the year, since we've done three things together probably or four, yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:05:25):teacher was amazing. Teacher was a good,Dave Dastmalchian (01:05:27):thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when, um, we got John, uh, it's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got. And John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up. It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level, but just which is the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene I've probably gone back to, uh, more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend onstage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff. And, um, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John.John Hoogenakker (01:07:07):I feel the same way about you, man. You, I got to say, Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, uh, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And, um, I think it's less than 7% of people, uh, who, who have been where you were, uh, ever come back. Um, and so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry, um, is just absolutely astounding. And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and, you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship, um, while being, uh, you know, a partner and a father is, um, I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for adviceDave Dastmalchian (01:08:17):Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so I'll always thank God for the theater school because of John Hoogenakker, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time, um, you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation. She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey, um, and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I I'm so grateful, uh, as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed, she was a needed angel at the time for me, um, in a dark place. Um, and bridges, I mean, I know he wasn't, um, you know, uh, faculty, he was staff, but that guy, um, recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction. And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of himJohn Hoogenakker (01:10:03):And his door was Always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I bel
Intro: Lost Boys, Chapelle's Show, Dianne Wiest, Brian Cox, Hillary and Bill. Let Me Run This By You: I need to KNOW what your major malfunction is. Compulsive liars, mushrooms.Interview: We talk to Scott Torrence about raves, feelng famous as a club kid, and surviving Tulsa.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And then we watched lost boys, which by the way, the lost boys is the lost boys, like from the eighties and that movie. It's hilarious. So in a real way, like there's some comedy gold in that movie that both Myles and I were like, like, look, it's a cheeseball eighties movie, but it holds up.1 (53s):There's not, there's no real. I'm trying to think of like, look the thing that Dave, there's no people of color in the movie that sucks. Yeah. But in terms of overtly racial, racist, or sexist, sexist jokes, not, and obviously it's creepy and it's a vampire flake, but it holds up, I was shocked. I thought this is going to be a piece of shit. So what is the thought, how did you arrive at watching this movie? So, okay. So that is such a great, that's a great question in that Myles and I never agree on what to watch ever, ever, ever, ever his idea of like, he wants to watch good things, right?1 (1m 35s):Like he wants to watch real stuff. I have to be in a very specific mood to watch real shit. I can't be triggered about anything in any way. I can't, it's really lame. Like I can't, so you're a delicate flower. Yeah. And I think it's also, I just am unwilling to use the brain power and the emotional wherewithal to focus on something that's like really good. So, okay. So which is why I thought lost boys. Right. Cause who cares? But it was so good, but Myles likes to watch, like he wanted me to watch the harder they fall, you know, the new sort of Western on I, I watched a little bit and it was, it was, I thought it was really, really well-written, but it was also Uber violent and Uber, like it was just too much.1 (2m 23s):So it didn't. Okay. Chappelle show. Interesting choice. We started watching the first season of Chappelle show. Wow. Wow. No, it is not a shocker that Mr. Chappelle is, is having the problems that he is having. Now, if you go back and watch the show, it's really interesting. And I, I don't know where I fall. I do think that if you kill affordable housing, I hate your guts because those were all of my former clients. And also, and just for humanity's sake. So I hate that. And we talked about that on the podcast. Right. And then, but anyway, so we stumbled upon and I was like, let's watch it pops up on my Netflix feed because why not?1 (3m 6s):And, and I was like, all right, let's watch it. And I'm expecting it to be so bad. First of all, Diane weest is a goddamn national treasure. She,2 (3m 16s):She really is. She really is. She's such a good,1 (3m 20s):Okay. So if I had to pick my, I always play this game, my new parents, my parents are going to be Brian Cox and Diane weest. Yes. I mean, it's, it's going to be very weird, but it, it, that if I quirky, I told you how I met Brian Cox and asked him to be my new dad. Excuse me. It's a lot before,2 (3m 43s):After all of the time I've spent talking to you about succession and reading Brian Cox's autobiography.1 (3m 49s):I just remembered it. I remembered it when I was talking, thinking about Diane, Diane weest lasted. It was before it was during adaptation that Nick cage made. And I like, I somehow it was, he, he was in a anyway. It doesn't matter. The point is I got to talking to him at a party and I was like, I want you to be my new dad. And at the time my dad was still alive. Right. So, oh, wow. Like, you know what his response was. I get that a lot. And he was serious. He said, people project all this shit onto me.1 (4m 30s):I believe2 (4m 31s):That makes a lot of sense. Oh, wow. Very interesting.1 (4m 35s):Yeah. This is like, before I knew anything about anything and right, right,2 (4m 39s):Right, right.1 (4m 40s):Oh my God. So we watched the lost boys, all this to say, and we just did it because it was something that we both could agree on that wasn't going to cause me weirdness because I'm weird and it wasn't going to four miles or what ends up happening because I, you know, I was watching about a Canadian cannibal the other night and he's like, I can't watch this before bed. Like, I can't under fair enough. Fair enough. But you know who, the stars of this movie are the true stars. Corey Feldman inquiry, aim pain. Yeah. And the other frog brother, they were Hulu like Cory Ames, Hames, his him, Hey right.1 (5m 25s):With age Corey Haim's delivery costumes. Oh my God. The clothing, like from the eighties and his delivery and his, his acting chops, his comedic acting chops are like fucking unparalleled. They're like on par with some deep shit. Anyway. So I that's my recommendation wash the lost boys. I wish there were people of color in it, of course, but2 (5m 53s):Maybe they'll do a remake, but that seems to be the way that they, they, you know, fix that well, not to brag, but at my dinner, my mellantine dinner last night, two other very special people were at our same restaurant. Whew. Hillary and bill Clinton. Yes. And it was so moving to see them. It was especially her, him. I'm like, I've changed my tune a little bit about him, but, and she is just as energetic and bubbly and, and kind of course, I didn't want to go up up to them.2 (6m 36s):I've never done that, but I've never gone up to a celebrity and said, can I whatever, say hello or take your picture with her. But on the way out, they were seated in such a way that you could sort of see in when, when you left. And I just didn't, you know, I just blew kisses at her and she just, you know, waved her hands and gave me a big smile. It was really, really nice. That is so awesome. We it's okay. We didn't deserve her honestly. Right. We would have, we would've ruined it in one way or another. And then juxtapose that with reading this morning. I don't know how I got on this topic. I start reading about what's happening with Kanye right now.2 (7m 19s):It's really sad.1 (7m 20s):It's2 (7m 20s):Really sad. And why are we still in this place where we, don't not enough of us to know that this is not something to joke about. This is not something to salivate over. Like this person really needs help. And the rich, the Oop, the ultra rich in some ways are in a similar position to the ultra poor when it comes to basic things like, you know, health care, we've talked about it a lot with respect to drugs and all the yes, yes. People that are in celebrities lives that ultimately I think lead to their death, but also the, this issue of mental health going, and I'm sorry, but Brittany Spears seems to be going off the rails too.2 (8m 1s):I, I'm not saying that it was right. That she was in that conservatorship, but I think she was on meds that she's not on now. And I'm sorry. I wish it weren't the case that really sick mentally ill people needed to take meds, but they do. They just do there's no, it's just the truth. There's no point in like, quibbling about it.1 (8m 29s):All this to say. I have never been in the presence of someone who literally is a compulsive liar. Like I've been around people that, cause this is LA right. Everyone is a blowhard. This person is a pathological compulsive liar. It is so, so, and the reason I bring it up is one to gossip, but to like, right, but to, to talk about this is why, like I was thinking about you, how you posted, how you saw that my name is Anna, right? Like, and how we're writing about Agnes.1 (9m 10s):Right? So Agnes, I don't think is a compulsive liar at all, but she's a con person. So there's there's and this person I was around was fascinating. And I actually, once I knew the diagnosis of a person of this person, it, it, it, it settled me. So I find, I don't know if you have this experience where, when I'm around someone and I don't know what their major malfunction is, but there is a malfunction, I am petrified. Right. I'm like, stick me in a room. And someone's like, okay, this person has narcissistic personality disorder with, you know, with, with, with psychotic tendency, whatever it is.1 (9m 57s):I'm like, okay, I know what I'm working with. Right. I know what I'm working with. The once her diagnosis, like this is a diagnosis that she's received, right. A personality. But anyway, it put, when I, so I could be in the room or outside with this person and I could say, oh, and this person is so narcissistic. They never listened to our PA, like they, they won't listen to our podcasts. She didn't even really remember who I was in a way in that way. Anyway. So they had a context or whatever. So watching a compulsive liar at work, fascinating, Gina, fascinating.1 (10m 37s):Because you can see as I'm, so I'm a kind of a gregarious gal, right? Duh. But like, I am, I like people, but I could see when I was telling a story, I was telling the story about my mushroom use. Right? And so how I tried to drive a car on mushroom, it's a Berry funny and sad and funny story. And it's a true story. Fucking happened to me with Ana Maria, who came from Vashon island and Jeffrey Brown and I, and Ana took mushrooms. You've never told me this story. It's the greatest story ever told. I mean, like you told me that you saw a family and you thought they were calling themselves the large family. That was when I was on acid. So different in solving or something different, different fake.1 (11m 18s):So, okay. Went to south America, went to Paraguay for a Migos, gave vaccinations. My partner was on a Maria Ana, Maria. She was from Vashon island off the coast of Seattle on bash on island is a hippie island on the, on the grounds of the police station. Grew hallucinogenic mushrooms. All the kids knew about it. Ana Maria decides I want to come visit you. We, we kind of made friends. I'm going to visit you in Chicago. She fucking brings tons of hallucinogens on the plane at 16 she's 16, I'm 16. But to just to disguise them, she puts them in a huge bag of popery.1 (12m 1s):So we don't know what's the mushroom and what's the popery okay. Oh, like just mixed it in. Oh yeah. So here in burping up. Well, so we didn't know Jeffrey Brown, of course. And he's fine talking about this. Cause we've talked about it. Jeffrey Brown is like, I'll do them with you. They were no measurements. There were no, we grabbed handfuls of what we thought were, oh, I was 16. Okay. Fine. It all was fun. We had a good time. It was really gross in my throat. Burned from the popery don't know how many mushroom caps I took probably a lot. Probably like, cause it doesn't take a lot, depending on the phone, it's all fun and games until they were, we, I had to drive home and I was driving my mom's Honda.1 (12m 46s):So I get in the car and we're on lake shore drive and I stopped the car and I say on lake shore drive and Ana and Jeffrey, we had dropped Jeffrey off and Jeffrey's like honest, like what are you doing? And I'm like, I have to stop the car because, and she's like, why? And I was like, I gotta be honest. I don't know how this car works. Like I couldn't figure out the mechanics of why it was. I said there's piston pistons involved. And she was like talking. Okay. So it crazy. So I'm stuck on lake shore drive. Right. And you were 16. I mean, there's so many things vulnerable about this attrition and I protein anxiety.1 (13m 29s):Right. So that's a whole, so, okay. Finally she's like, and she doesn't drive. Right? She doesn't drive. She's 16. She's never licensed yet. She doesn't know how. I barely know how so it was, she's like you have to pull back on. You have to, I think I probably managed to pull off a little bit and she's like, will you, do you know where you live? She's in a new city. She doesn't, there's no cell phones. And I'm like, I live, I know where I live. I live in Evanston. And so that was good. But then I get back in the car and I'm like, oh my God, Ana, I have bad news. And she's like, oh my God, what? And I'm like, there are people chasing us because the headlights in the bed, I was like, there are a lot of cars chasing us. What do you mean women?1 (14m 10s):Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. And so I then started to panic, of course. And I, and I go home and I'm like, my parents are having a fucking dinner party Sunday night. Here's this poor girl who brought drugs on an airplane with me who doesn't know my parents from Adam. I lived with her for two months. They don't know her. So I walk in to the dinner party and I say, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I've just taken. Apparently I've just eaten a lot of hallucinogenic mushrooms and I'm, I'm freaking out. And my mom goes, oh my fucking God.1 (14m 52s):Like she like was pissed off. And my dad just put his head in his hands and was like, I'll talk you down. And so he was lovely. Yeah. It was great. My dad, thank God. He was a psychologist, even though he's fucked up. He had some training in this. So I sat with my dad and talked for, and then they were like, we got it. He's like, you should eat something. So like, they should have ordered it, but they're like, no, let's go to the bagel. And I'm like, okay. So we go. So we all go, my parents and this were this woman who is unknown to us other than now my parents know she's a drug dealer. Right. So we go to the bagel now.1 (15m 33s):I don't know what was happening, Gina, but we walk into the bagel and there's a clown and full clown suit behind. And I start hyperventilating and I want to leave. And my mom was like, no, you have to stay like, she's punishing me. Right. So I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. So we say it was like a birthday party or something, but it was like Sunday night. Okay. So we sit down, the waitress comes over to the dinner party. So they all leave. Like it was a bad situation. It was like three other couples crisis teenage crisis. Okay. They leave whatever. All right. So then we go to the bagel and we see the clown or I'm like, oh my God, no, no, no.1 (16m 16s):So we set in another area and the waitress comes and literally this is what happened. My mom's like, Hey, the way they were, my mom is like a huge, super dot. And she goes, what's the soup. And the lady goes, oh, cream of mushroom. And then my mom and everybody wraps into laughter. I feel like I'm on, you know, again, tripping. So it was a bad scene. It was a bad scene. And, and I had panic attacks from that from weeks on. So I know that I need to be very careful, but okay. I tell the story for this reason. One, it's a funny story. Yeah. It was my introduction to psychedelics, but too, as I'm telling this story, I see this other person at the party livid and thinking, how can I out story this story?1 (17m 10s):Oh shoot. Oh, no, I didn't mean for that. And I thought, oh, of course not. Of course you're not living your life to injure and are looking and looking at me and thinking, you can almost see the wheels turning about like, how am I going to one up the story at this dinner party outside at 8:00 PM. Like, it it's crazy, but there's competition going. And I'm like, and then, so then this person launches into this totally unbelievable, like crazy story about hallucinogens. It was so sad. And I, I wanted to say so many things to this person.1 (17m 56s):I said nothing, cause I'm not.2 (17m 59s):Yeah. Right. That's, that's their, that's their journey. But did the person whose name we will have bleeped by the time this airs, did that person like say something to you in advance? Or you're just saying you experienced this compulsive liar.1 (18m 14s):No, no. They've known, you know, they've known this person forever and it it's the things that this person says is wild. Like we'll say I bought a house and they didn't buy a house. I am going to Greece tomorrow.2 (18m 30s):No, no. And, and the person who was having the party is just okay with it because1 (18m 36s):My husband chimes in. Cause he's, he's, he's like, why, why the fuck are you friends with this person? And they say, it's like family. It's like this weird. And the answer is, I don't know. And I don't think they know.2 (18m 50s):Yeah, right. Anyway, he was like family. I well, and you're right. What you said about when, when you know the context, I like, I have a few friends who, yeah, they, they have diagnosable personality disorders, but knowing this about them and loving them anyway, kind of gets me off the hook of like having to feel bad about it or having to feel worried about it. I mean, yeah. Those are not the people that you're necessarily going to go to with your, every intimacy. Right. But, but to just, just to like, know what brand of crazy you're dealing with can kind of make it because at the end of the day, you know, the only way, not, not that it was anybody's job to change the compulsive layer, but the only way that those people ever do eventually kind of see to a life full of more integrity is not by, I mean, sometimes I guess it's from people abandoning them, but mostly it's from people saying, you know, I love you.2 (19m 47s):And I know you're lying to me, you know, which is a hard thing for me, lying is like, is that if I'm, I don't think I've ever said before that I have a trigger, but that's, my trigger is lying. When somebody starts lying to me, I, I well up with such rage and I realize it's my own narcissism. Right? How dare you lie to me? I, you know, like as if it's something they're doing to me, instead of something that they're doing defensively for themselves in the same way that everything I do is defensively for myself. Like it's just a different brand of defense.1 (20m 25s):Yeah. It was wild2 (20m 26s):That, that recasts my own experiences with that person. Wow. Okay.1 (20m 34s):Yeah. And criminal, we've talked about this criminal things. So it's just, it's what it is for me was real reckoning with my own desire. Right. To be something that I am not like, I understand that in my bones. Okay. I guess, I guess like I practice before, like say, what would I say to this person? Cause I thought like if I was to try to quote, help this person, which I'm not going to try to do, but I'm just saying like, okay, well the urge is there to, to compat have compassion.1 (21m 16s):This is what I would say, oh, how I get it? This deep down in my bones need to be something I'm not something greater than I'm not than me. Something prettier, something thinner, something more attractive, something smarter, funnier, all the things I know that feeling. So what I grew up with that feeling it's been reinforced and I know it in my bones and I have tried every way I can think of to combat that. And nothing has worked except for the thing that I'm running the most away from, which is the truth.2 (22m 5s):Right.1 (22m 5s):It's such a fucking catch 22. It's like, so when I tell the truth, I'm so scared sometimes to tell it whether it's, I feel inadequate, I made a mistake. I, whatever it is, I'm feeling less than I feel you're mad at me. I feel all the things. If I don't say that, if I say anything, but the truth, the suffering I experience only gets multiplied.2 (22m 36s):And the person who is a compulsive liar in a way you could think about it like being a verbal tick, like if somebody had Tourette's, you know, and, and was an, every other thing they uttered was like an involuntary sound. That's almost how you could think about the compulsive liar. My, the problem that I have is I get into this thing of like, well, if I don't confront your lie, that I'm co-signing it. Which actually is not how it works. Right. I, I'm not in charge of what you say. You, you, you have lies spewing out of your mouth. I mean, that's, that's your problem.1 (23m 8s):Right. It's so interesting. And I think it, I think it, it, it, it, it just is. So it's just a fascinating part of human of human. What is it like pathology when stuff gets, and that's the way it manifests, because we just want to be so much sort of more safe and, and special. We want to be safe and special.2 (23m 39s):I think it would be like for a person who is so sick with the line, what do you, it would be like for them. I mean, what, I wonder if it's something as simple as like walking through. Okay. So what do you think is going to happen? If you tell the truth? People aren't going to like me. Okay. Well, has it ever occurred to you that people don't like you for not telling the truth? Right. Well, people aren't gonna like you. And then what, you know, because of course the thing is like, the problem is not that other people aren't gonna want you to promise that you don't like yourself. This is, this is my news. Like not pro, not profound, but profound to me, realization about life.2 (24m 20s):Is this just like really the whole thing is whether or not you love yourself. Yeah. Right. And when you're talking about relating to other people, loving other people, supporting other relationships, like pretty much RuPaul said it, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? It's just what it is. It's like a fact, it's not even really an opinion. And, and, and I, I'm on a journey of figuring out how to love myself. And it's really scary. It's like, I have no idea how this is going to turn out. I don't know, from this. Right. But so far my furtive little steps are turning out great.2 (25m 3s):As an example, you know, I was talking to somebody about, I was talking to somebody that I'm in a, you know, that I have a closeness with about prob not even problems, but just, you know, areas of challenge and in the, in the relationship. And for the first time I didn't take this person who was telling me what they are struggling with with me. And I didn't take it personally. I took it like, oh, you're telling me what your struggle is. Okay. I get that. I didn't, I didn't have to take it on, like, as my own person, didn't have to make it about my own ego.2 (25m 48s):You know, getting feeling rejected. I could really see. And it, the only thing I can attribute it to is I have somewhat more of a better sense of myself, such that I'm not constantly looking to another person to tell me if I'm good or not. Today on the podcast, we are talking to Scott Torrance. Scott Torres is an actor. You may know him from a film that started many theater school graduates like Sean Gunn and Judy Greer and Lee curves, some called the specials.2 (26m 33s):He was also in six feet under and a film called Ray and Buffy. The vampire Slayer. Scott is currently living in his hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is running his very own hair salon and he is funny and charming and sweet and lovable. So please enjoy our conversation with Scott Torrance, Any race. Oh, okay. Good recording progress. Got it. All right. Scott Torrens. Congratulations. You survived theater school.3 (27m 7s):Thank you. By the grace of God,2 (27m 10s):Grace of God. No. Wait, did you guys graduate the same year? Right? Because you, Scott was in the class right below mine. And then1 (27m 21s):What year did you graduate? 98. Yeah. We were in the same, but listen, but listen, I was so far gone that I don't, I just couldn't even, cause I took a year off that I don't remember. Literally I remember nothing. So, so yeah, they were the same class.3 (27m 39s):Okay, awesome. Cause I was trying to rack my brain. I was like, I remember you. I remember you being a year ahead of me, both of you. And then, you know what, to be honest, if I was just gonna blame it on a whole lot of ecstasy that I did for four years, I blown out a lot of brain cells as I there's a lot of things to remember. And a lot of things that I did,2 (28m 1s):That's good into it because honestly that I think, I mean, I remember that that is what you were going through or getting into or whatever you want to call it. You were the first person I knew who was like really into rave culture, which I thought was so cool and dangerous and adventurous and exciting. Was that something you were involved in before you came to theater school?3 (28m 26s):A little bit. I am from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I was this little gay boy raised by my mom and my aunt. And I knew from the time I knew, I knew once I knew what a big city was, I belonged in. You know, I knew that I never belonged here. And so I just started acting when I, my, my aunt Coco, my crazy aunt, Coco was an actress around town and community theater. And she took me to see Peter pan when I was six. And I fell in love with it because they flew.3 (29m 7s):And three years later at the same theater company held auditions. And I was like, I want to play Michael because I want to fly. And I practice and practice audition for it and got called back. And I got that part and the bug bit. And from that point on laser focused, and one of the things that I have, that's a blessing and a curse, I think is I have the ability to get laser focused on something and not stop until I get it. But I usually get laser focused on the wrong things. Be it the rave culture and the club, the club kids. I mean, it was fun, but I, should've probably been focused a little bit more on class.1 (29m 48s):Well, I have a question. I think that for me, I don't think there's, I mean, look, I'm not gonna de eh, say your experience. Wasn't valid because it sounds like it, but at least you had fun, right. While the rest of us were like slick. I mean, like tell us what that was like, how did you get into that culture? Because I remember being like, oh my God, these kids are so cool and they're having a fucking blast. Was it fun? First of all,3 (30m 16s):It was so much fun. It was too much fun, you know, and coming into the theater school, I knew I wasn't going to be, I knew I was going to be surrounded by people that were better than me. You know, we were all kind of like, I felt like the best of where we came from, you know? So I was prepared to not be the golden child. But what was interesting was I was very curious and I was, you know, dropped into Chicago from Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so I had no fear when I was 18. I mean, I feared the professors, but not Chicago nightlife. And so I just, I went to pro bar one night by myself. I took a class, I waited in line, freezing my ass off for like an hour.3 (31m 1s):And then I saw these magical people, like just walk through with these huge platform shoes and this crazy makeup. And I was like, oh my God, I want to beat them. And finally got in and like bought my way to the back of the club where all of these fantastic people were. And I had the nerve to just ask one of them. I'm like, where'd she get those shoes? And I'm like, oh, I have a maid. I was like, where, okay. I like a cobbler or something like that. So I got my dad's combat boots that he gave me. Cause he really wanted me to be a tough guy. And I said, I'll keep these boots. And I took them in and I got six inches of like platform attached, dressed up in these, like these like striped overalls.3 (31m 49s):And I had this like matching hat and I wore those shoes and I walked up to the club the next time. And they were like, right, this way you don't have to pay. Like, and from that point on, I felt like I felt famous.2 (32m 4s):Never occurred to me until just now that raves or theater. I don't know why that current, till, till you just said it, you made your entrance and with your correct costume on, and then you got the part. Yeah.1 (32m 18s):Great. And you were also famous. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the other thing that I've learned from talking to people like you and another guest ed we had on kind of talked about this, that like that and watching documentaries that the club kid thing was a tr a mix of like fashion show meets theater meets like calendula, like D like, so what debauchery, but it's, it's a theater. It was like theater of it meets the fashion shows. It was fantastic.3 (32m 51s):I agree. And I also on the, on the touching on the famous part, feeling famous, not having to pay $20 at the time, which was pretty hardcore. I thought to get into anywhere. I was like hobnobbing with like a Dennis Rodman in the VIP lounge was totally, he was totally hot now. He's not anymore. Billy Corgan. I mean, I was hanging with these like stars. So I felt famous. I remember talking to Billy Gorgon. I was as tall as he was, because it was six inches on this five, seven foot body we were face to face and he like, where'd you get those shoes? They're pretty cool. And I'm like, oh my God, I love you so much.3 (33m 33s):Like, it was just, it was magical. But I was also like, I was so wrapped up that it got me into some like, kinda like bad situations. And do you mean like dangerous situations? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So did you guys remember the seven minute rule? Like if you were late seven minutes, the door would close and then if the door closed three times you were completely kicked out of school. It didn't matter if it was like last semester, senior year, three times you're out. And from what I remember, our credits wouldn't transfer.3 (34m 14s):So they put the fear of God in us to like, make it on time, which I agree with. Like, I think, you know, time is money. I've never really had a problem with being prompt, but there was one night that, okay. So I had bill Burnett for voice and speech. I think it was our second year. And I just could not with him. I would just say1 (34m 40s):I got in a fight with him in class where I stormed out, because he's told me I had, I was a chicken necking and that I did this too much. And then I looked like a chicken and I couldn't take it because, and I just stormed out that motherfucker. I never liked him. Well,3 (34m 55s):He just put me to sleep and granted, I probably wasn't on any sleep, you know, going into that class. But I risk, I risked it, that biscuit and I just skipped twice. I was like, I can't, I can't, but I won't miss the third time. Now this is kind of a dark sword, but I went to so Tuesdays and Wednesdays in Chicago where like the nights that like weren't ethic and back then, and I remember just going to this gay bar and boys town just to have some drinks. And I remember all of a sudden waking up in the emergency room with restraints on my arms and legs and a catheter.3 (35m 37s):And I was like, I had no idea how he got there. I was like, what happened? And finally the doctors came in and said, you know, you were fighting us. We were trying to have, and I, I don't remember. I don't, I'm total blackout. And you guys, I've never laid a singer on anyone in my life, but they said it was a possible GHB overdose or roofie overdose. So someone bought me a drink the one night that I just went out to just have like a couple of drinks, not like eat a bunch of eggs to see, and like, you know, dance still done anyway that morning. If I hadn't gotten out of that and gotten to build Burnett's class, I would have been kicked out.3 (36m 22s):So after they removed the catheter, sorry, this is Jolene. It was, it was very, very painful. And they took the restraints off. I was like, I have to get to Bill's class or I'm going to get kicked out. And I gained my Ivy out of my arm. I like dress as fast as I could. I ran. Cause I feel like it was really close to the theater school that ER, I ran to his class and I got in there in time. I was mortified, but I was like, I can't miss this class. Like I can't or I'll be kicked out. So yeah. Does2 (36m 59s):That mean you don't know what happens to you that night?3 (37m 2s):I don't. I, I don't think because the guy that I went with supposedly like just like dropped me off. But anyway, I don't believe that anything happened to me. I think that I was trying to fight maybe because I was like in a blackout that I felt like people were like trying to undo my clothing, but it was probably like the nurses and the doctors and stuff, you know?2 (37m 30s):Right. Oh my3 (37m 31s):Dad, it was nuts. And I think about it now and I'm like, oh my God, that really was fucked up. But you know what? I made it to Bill's class. And I been,2 (37m 40s):How old were you? Eight? Was that our second year? So 193 (37m 44s):Funnier, 1920.2 (37m 47s):Oh my God. Well, I'm really sorry that happened to you. I'm really glad that nothing, nothing terrible happened to you. But I wanted to jump just back to the thing that you said in the beginning about feeling famous, because that is what my, I wouldn't have occurred to me until you said it, but that is my impression of you like that. You not in a jerky way, but that you were, it seems, you seem very self-possessed to me. Well, and for sure you had a life outside of school, which many of us didn't, so that was sort of like intriguing, but overall it does seem like you have a lot of grit as a person.2 (38m 28s):Would you say that's true?3 (38m 30s):I definitely did. Back then. I had kind of had no fee, well, I had all the fear in the theater, but, but yeah, there was, I don't know. I, you know, I think it's that like invincibility thing when you're younger, you know, the older you get, the more, or for me, the older I get, the more I'm I cherish, you know, I, I think about what I have. Like, I don't just, I don't ride brides on rollercoasters anymore. Like the last time, I mean, I went to Hawaii a few years ago with my family and my mom, like I kept being told, like take the helicopter tour is magical. It's it is a religious religious experience. I was like, so looking forward to, well, my mom booked for whatever reason, book the helicopter with the doors off you guys, it was like an hour long panic attack.3 (39m 17s):Like my nails dug it into my mom was like, I was like, make it stop. This is horrible. And then when it was over, I was like, when did I become a web? Like when did I? But I think it comes with age, right.2 (39m 28s):It totally does. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day. Oh, it was about skiing. I was talking about, about skiing. I'm saying like, I just can't ring this bell of knowing people die from skiing, like from kind of minor, sort of you make one false move and you're just dead. And just seems like not a, not a way to, it's not worth it in terms of a way to go. If you're going to take a danger, take a risk, it should be like really, really worth it. But you, so is it right to say that the thing you sort of regret or feel badly about with the partying and school, is that you, that you might've almost gotten kicked out or did you, was it, was there more to it than that?3 (40m 16s):I don't think I regret it. I mean, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but like I had to be somewhat talented to like roll into like Shakespeare class, no pun intended roll into Shakespeare class and do some Shakespearians on it after coming straight from after hours, like on no sleep, like, I don't know how I did it, but somehow I did it and I also came out, you know, alive that God, I had a girl in my class that something really horrible happened to. And I don't know if we, I don't know if we can bleak names.3 (40m 57s):Do you guys remember like names, like, remember who I'm talking to? So that could have happened to me. You know what I mean? Like I put myself not to say that she did anything wrong at all, but you know, that could've happened to me, you know? And2 (41m 13s):For the grace of God3 (41m 14s):There, before the grace of God out,1 (41m 16s):Did you make, were there a bunch of kids at, in our class, in our school that, that you went with? I remember some, but like, did you, or did you have two totally separate groups of friends?3 (41m 28s):So starting out, I remember listening to Noel's podcasts with guys and I heard her say I was sitting around at a friend's place and I'm like, let's go to a club. But I think she was talking about me because Noel was hot and I is beautiful. She's gorgeous. And I was like, well, that'll help me get into this club. And we were friends, you know? And so she was like happy, like hanging out in the VIP room. Whereas I was ex to see did something to my body. It made me dance all night long without stopping. And so I started dropping all this baby weight. And so there was another part of it, which was body image.3 (42m 9s):You know, I was as chunky monkey my whole life. And then I just started dropping weight, like crazy because I was dancing literally all night long.1 (42m 19s):Yeah. You literally were doing cardio for 12 hours at a time, right?3 (42m 24s):Yeah. Well, yes, yes, totally. I could ring my jeans out, my big old raver jeans that I got in a lot of trouble out of theater school for wearing. Cause they said that, you know, we can't see your full movement. I could ring those with. So, I mean, it was, it was like hot yoga for 12 hours, but like, or Zumba.1 (42m 45s):So what, w w why and when, and how did the party at,3 (42m 50s):So not till later on? Not till, honestly, not till after, so, okay. So I never felt like the golden child at the theater school. I don't know if any of us said, although listening to these podcasts, like some of the people that I thought were golden, they didn't, they didn't, you know, we all have this similar experience where it's like, oh, you were scared too. Oh, wow. I had no like, Hey, you guys are scared. I thought everybody loved them. Yale. The, the only real feedback like that I had that was positive from any teachers were John Jenkins and Jane Jane alderman.3 (43m 36s):And I know that's not, I haven't heard a lot of that on this podcast, but, and I almost had kind of like imposter syndrome in her class because I was like, well, she hasn't seen my work all four years. So like I, and I felt like that was kind of competitive, like pretty competitive, but grade.1 (43m 56s):It was very weird, very3 (43m 58s):Weird. Especially the girls. Like I didn't get, you know, like I didn't get a lot of, I don't, I didn't feel the same heat from the guys as I did from some of the girls. But anyway, so I had a really amazing, it's weird. Like I had the most amazing showcase experience ever. I think I was blown away. I couldn't believe it.1 (44m 25s):This is a great story because I'm obsessed with showcase stories and they've all been horrific. It pretty. So can you tell us your experience? I'm so excited.3 (44m 35s):I would love to. Okay. So I was like freaking out about a monologue. Didn't know what to do, but Jane, you know, Jane was just, she was just kind of, you know, she didn't favor me. I didn't believe she was just kind. And she was like, just ask Zack helm to write your monologue. So I reached out to Zach who I'd never, I mean, we weren't really friends. I mean, I knew who he was, but I got his number. I called him and he said, okay, I want you to make me a mix tape and send it to me. And I'm like, okay. He's like, don't think about it. Just make me a mix tape, send it to me. And so I did, and he wrote me this monologue and it wasn't, I think this is important for actors that are about to graduate.3 (45m 24s):It wasn't a character. It wasn't, I wasn't playing anybody else. It was me ranting on stage. I walked out and I just was going off about what really pisses me off in the world. And, and so I lucked out with that Chicago showcase. I was one of those, I walked off stage and I was like, I have no idea what that was. You know, that was an out-of-body experience. I don't know if that went well, then we go to LA and it was like, all the stars aligned you guys. Like, I cannot even tell you, I got out there. I like started into this laughter started happening. And I was like, okay, I've got these people in my pocket.3 (46m 6s):So I just go on and on and rant and rave. And I got a fucking standing ovation shut. I'm not kidding you. I could not believe it. I was like, is this real? This can't be real. Like it did that. Did I imagine that? And then I remember afterwards,1 (46m 21s):Oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard.3 (46m 25s):It was one of the best moments of my entire life. Rick Murphy walks up to me and he's like, well, someone did well this evening. And I was like, oh my God. And then Jane called me into her hotel room and she sat me down and she goes, okay, look, listen, I want you to know that you have more interest than Judy Leonard or Mike Moody combined. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? She's like, no. So I need you to go home and get some, or go to your hotel room, go night night, because you are booked like this entire time. So I don't know what everybody else did. But I took meeting after meeting, after meeting, after meeting, then one of the1 (47m 7s):Interrupt, can I interrupt you? Because I just have a question. What was that I have where you like, my whole life is about to ch like I am now a star. Cause I would be like, Hey mom, I'm never coming home. Like I'm now fucking a star.3 (47m 22s):I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I honestly felt like I was dreaming the whole time. I was like, oh, just my dreams are coming true. And I of all people me, like, because I just felt really not, I don't know. I just, I was never, I felt like I was never really liked by most teachers, you know? And I don't think they knew what to do with me casting what? I didn't, I couldn't picture me in a lot of things. Like I couldn't see a clear picture of where I belonged in the business.1 (47m 50s):It's so interesting. I think you hit LA and LA hit you at a time where you said the stars aligned, but they were looking for something and that something was you like, that is the clear thing of like perfect match and perfect time for that. Anyway. It's just so it's such, I'm so intrigued. Keep going, keep going.3 (48m 14s):No, I agree with you. So then I, then every, so I think people were there for two days. Maybe I didn't see anybody. Cause I was just, it was one meeting after the other. And then I was told I needed to stay a day later because there was this audition for this movie called rave. And I was like, okay. So everybody else flew back to Chicago. And I had to stay in the hotel room by myself and I got the sides to the script and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to audition for a movie in Hollywood tomorrow. And by the way, all the meetings that I took, they were like, go back to Chicago, get your sad card and then move out here. That was like, basically what everyone said, go back to Chicago, get your sad card, move back here.3 (48m 59s):So I go to this audition by myself. First of all, it's hard as fuck to find a cab in LA coming from Chicago. I was like, how the hell am I going to get there? But I figured it out. I went, I auditioned for it. I didn't really know how I did flew back to Chicago. And then I found out that I booked, I booked it and I was like, wow,1 (49m 22s):Are you fucking kidding?3 (49m 26s):Not totally true. And I wasn't sag. And so they did something called a Taft-Hartley, which I don't know. I think that I should probably look that up, but it's like waves of magic wand and now you're. Yeah. So I graduated and then two weeks later flew to Los Angeles. I moved in with so Zack helm, Kate McKinnon, Kat Phillips, Ellen, Mel's Jeff you'll Terman. We're all living in this huge house in Korea town. And they're like, we would love to have you as a roommate. And I'm like, that's great because I have no idea where the hell I'm going or what I'm doing.3 (50m 9s):I flew in $5 to my name. Oh, in saffron. Don't let me forget. Saffron also lived at that house, went to sleep, woke up and I think it was Kate or Zach that drove me to set the first day. Cause mean, I didn't know directions. I didn't have a car. And I started shooting this movie and it was just totally unbelievable.1 (50m 31s):I have to just say this whole thing is unbelievable, but like, can I ask you, like when you're sitting in these meetings, because you were like, what, how old were3 (50m 39s):You? I was 21.1 (50m 42s):So you're sitting in these meetings with people. Were you able to like, do you think here's what I'm making up? Okay. And I could be wrong. Like all your stuff with like the club scene where you have to pretend and dress up and like you, and you're already famous, kind of, do you think that helped prepare you for these meetings in terms of feeling like you deserved to be there?3 (51m 4s):I don't know if, no, but you know what it did teach me like hanging out with all those club kids. When I got the, the sides to that movie, I was like, I know this guy. I argued with this guy. I mean, I, it just felt like I could totally do this. And there weren't a lot of parts. I did bomb and Gilliad with John Jenkins, my second year as an intro where I got to wear my stacks in that, in that thing. And I got to be this like over the top, flaming, like hooker boy, not to say that, you know, but I, I had something to base that off of, you know what I mean?3 (51m 45s):So that was really fun. Rave kind of just like fell. Right? I mean, it was, again, it was luck. It was like winning the lottery stars aligned. I party with this character before, so I know how to play him. And, but, but they a lot. So the agency that I liked the most, they still wouldn't sign me. They were like, this doesn't happen. So, but we still like use, so we're going to hit pocket you and we're going to send you out on auditions. And I was like, okay. And they're like, and get ready to not work. And I was like, okay. And I didn't feel entitled. I mean, I felt like I was just lucky, like right place, right.3 (52m 26s):Time stars aligned. And they started sending me out on auditions. And then I remember going to an audition that they said, you know what go, you just need to go meet this casting director because she just want to award for buggy nights. And I was like, cool. Okay. And I went in and Sean Gunn was in the room and his brother was in the room. And I, it was like a two liner for this movie called the specials and Judy was in it and, and Sean was in it. And so I walk in and I do the two lines. They're like, did you Goodman? And I said, yes, I shared it. And they're like, thanks. And then I get a phone call for me. You booked it, come in and sign the papers.3 (53m 8s):Like you're signed, let's do this. And I was like, yes. So that paid off because connections. Right. Like knowing people, right? Like the theater school was a connection for me in that room. Little did I know then? But the gum brothers, how like amazing. Right. But, but1 (53m 25s):Yeah, you, you hit the ground clearly running like clearly. So you just, could, we never talked to anybody that literally has had this experience where you, your showcase went so well, that you basically just stayed, you, you, you, you moved to LA and you had an agent and everything, but I want to say, how was it shooting the rave movie? Just not knowing how to make movies? Like how did you do that?3 (53m 56s):Well, I learned very quickly that you know, the camera's right in your face. So I got, you know, I first day they were like tone it way down, dude. Like, camera's right here, you know, don't act for the back of the house. And I also was getting cues from my fellow actors. We were, I think the first scene, we were all like laying in bed after like this raid goes terribly wrong. And one of our friends Odis, and we're talking about like, is she going to be okay? And I'm like, she'll be fine. And they'll know like, listen, and the other two actors were like whispering and, and we were whispering in bed. I was like, oh right. Yeah, the camera is like right here.3 (54m 38s):Okay. I got, I got clocked by a couple of directors for just being too big. I did an episode about the, the vampire Slayer. And I, I was this half, this kid that blows himself up with a bomb and he's half zombie, half burned victim and comes back to wreak havoc on the high school. And I, all this makeup, it took like four hours to get into this makeup. And I would practice in my trailer and I'm like, and I did these nervous ticks and stuff for this job. I mean, I got called in like five times for this part, which was just like one episode. But I had, it was this nerdy guy with these ticks. So I was like, you can't really see what I'm doing in this makeup again.3 (55m 18s):I was just told you, bring it down, like stop being so extra. Like, we'll see you. And I'm like, got it. Okay. Gotcha. But yeah. Well, Scott,2 (55m 29s):At the risk of sounding like a terrible television movie, and then what happen because you got all this, what happens?3 (55m 38s):So the thing is I got really close to a lot of pilots. I would go in tests for network and it would always need it to me. And one other person, another person, and every single time it didn't work out. I would cry. Like I would, I would be devastated. And then, then I would go to work with like the swollen red face. Like I get red and splotchy anyway, I would get red and slushy walking into auditions that was before I knew anything about beta blockers, but Hey guys, if you're out there auditioning and you turn red as a beet, if you feel any sort of beta blockers can be a big help, but I was tired of crying. I was tired of having my heart broken.3 (56m 18s):I mean, and I feel like Larry Bates said on this podcast, confidence is everything. And I can, I cannot agree more when I would book a job, then I would be confident and that would lead to three more jobs. And then I wouldn't, and I wouldn't work for a year or more, you know, and then I would get so close. So close every single time. Nope. Nope. And my I'm S I'm a sensitive guy. Like I think I was like born with like an extra like dose of emotions and I was just tired of crying and having my heart broken. And I had had my, my laser focused on being a movie star from the time I was nine years, six years old, honestly.3 (57m 2s):And there was no plan B. It's so funny when my mom dropped me off at DePaul, she was like, you know, you could go to beat beauty school and like, learn how to do that. So you can cut hair in the dorms to make money. I'm like, there's no plan B. Like I'm going to be a movie star. That's all there is to it. Well, that's what I do now. I own my own hair salon. So she, you know, but it all worked out the way it was supposed to, but basically I stopped because I was like, is there anything else in this world that will make me happy because I am miserable right now. I'm tired of crying every day. You know, you're selling yourself, they're telling you, you know, there's only so much rejection that I could take at that time.3 (57m 45s):So1 (57m 46s):Where you, where you still did you feel like you had a community out here in LA or no? Like, did you, or, and also where did the raving continue in LA? Yeah.3 (57m 56s):Prior to that? Yeah. So I was also suffering from like, I don't know if this is stage fright or a mixture of stage fright and drugs, but anytime I would get, you know, like I would go out for something that I got really excited for. I remember they were casting this gate character on Dawson's Creek. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I couldn't remember the lines you guys. And it was, it wasn't, you know, pages and pages, but I just, I was psyching myself out. I did better at auditions on things that I didn't know really a whole lot about. But yeah, I, so I, I think it was a mixture of partying and also just kind of like being set up and I couldn't remember the lines and there's nothing more humiliating than, you know, that's like the bait, you know, you guys know when they're like, listen, remember those lanes,1 (58m 53s):I have the same thing. And so I was diagnosed. It's like, my therapist literally thinks that what happens is that it is, it's obviously anxiety, but it's also, there is some kind of shame, fear of shame that happens that becomes so large shame of not remembering shame of not doing well enough. This is for me. I don't know if this resonates with you, but like, and she was like, it is. And then the brain literally shuts down and, and goes into, I will protect you at all costs, which means all of my resources have to go into like, basically keeping you in your body and who gives a shit about copy written by some dude in a room like you now are in survival mode.1 (59m 43s):So that's, it's panic, it's, it's panic and it's fear of humiliation and it it's real. And it, and it has really debilitated me as an actor and I'm still working through it.3 (59m 56s):Yeah. Can I just tell you both, I'm so obsessed with you, both, like, are you, did you both become therapists at some point? Because this, I, I, I, I so wanted to, I'm a huge, huge fan of therapy, huge and endorsed it, love it will go for the rest of my life. And there's a part of me that wishes, gosh, you know, if there weren't so much school and if I wasn't 46, like I would love because it's fascinating to me. And I think you're absolutely right, Jen. I think that, you know, it was like, I remember, okay, there's really, really bad, bad show on MTV TV.3 (1h 0m 37s):It was called undressed. And it was this really bad soap opera. And I, and it was really bad acting. But then when I got on, on set, I was like, oh, it's really bad acting because they're giving everybody line readings. Like, they're telling you to say it just like this and I forgot my lines. I kept forgetting my lines. They were getting so frustrated with me. And I was like, I didn't know that I could never ask questions. Like, I was always scared to ask for what I wanted. Like I just was like, I don't know, just, oh, sorry. I'm bouncing all over the place. But Christine Goodman said something so amazing. And in her podcast about how the whole MFA's, they looked at it as like, I'm paying you to learn that blew my mind.3 (1h 1m 26s):Like if I went in with that, just, just with a notion of that, like, oh my God, I, I taught, I mean, she just, I love her so much, but I wish that I had thought that a little bit more. And I mean, that's not the case when you're working on set, but you know, in Hollywood they're paying you to do a job, but like what Lee paid those, those professors to teach us. And I feel like some of the things that I don't know, th their behavior, I think sometimes we wouldn't fly today. I'll tell you that1 (1h 1m 57s):Right now. Well, no, it wouldn't.2 (1h 2m 0s):Well, you probably know boss and I are kind of big into this idea that like, when success doesn't happen to people or it doesn't happen in the timeline that they want or whatever, it's often for the best, because you know, like I've said to her, if she hadn't made all of these terrible choices, basically turning down opportunities that were coming her way left and right. She might have found herself fit successful and not able to handle and kind of blow it up. And like, you know, I mean, I'm using her your words positive. They use I'm like, I probably would have ended up dead.2 (1h 2m 40s):Oh, I would have been dead. Yeah. So Scott, do you think that that's kind of, there were some, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought3 (1h 2m 50s):I would've pulled a Lindsey Lohan. I would've, I would've ended up dumpster. Yeah, no. I mean, so I, I truly believe that, like, I, I I'm so happy that I did it, you know, I it's, I don't, I think you'll only regret the things you don't try, the things you don't do, but then there's also this part of me, I'm not gonna lie that, you know, the love never goes away that I, I don't wanna say it's an empty hole that, you know, I do hear now, it's very creative. I own my own salon. It's just me and my clients. And, you know, we all, I think everybody puts on their work face or, you know, whatever, but it's nice to be able to be adaptable and, and entertain while you're doing, you know, whatever.3 (1h 3m 38s):But you guys have been such an inspiration. This podcast has been such an inspiration for me because you guys got my creative juices flowing. That, that part that I have, not that hasn't been full in 24 years, you know, like I'm, I am like, I'm like, I'm going to do a podcast. I, you guys2 (1h 3m 58s):Do it, do it.1 (1h 4m 1s):We're doing a documentary. Or we're planning to do a documentary on the theater school times. And you will be in that documentary. So2 (1h 4m 11s):Road trip, road, trip to Tulsa, you're in Tulsa, right?3 (1h 4m 15s):Buckle on the Bible belt.2 (1h 4m 16s):Okay. Now, yeah. That's what I was going to ask you about. Like, what's it like to live in Oklahoma when you're not the most traditional person?3 (1h 4m 24s):Right. So, I mean, if you told me, you know, you're going to move back to Tulsa one day and you're going to find your husband and you're going to be content. I would have been like, you're smoking crack. Like there's no way in hell. You couldn't pay me enough money. What, what, what, what person, what, what, what any sort of minority, why would you choose to live in this horrible red state? Right. But, you know, I really lucked out there's good people and bad people, wherever you go. And the pandemic, I actually had a silver lining with the pandemic. I was working at a competitive salon, kind of like the theater school.3 (1h 5m 5s):I don't know why I'm drawn to those kinds of things, but pandemic happened. And I have, my mom has a heart patient. She had triple bypass at 42. So she's immune compromised. My husband is immune compromised. And then there's me that just tends to catch every cold that's out there. And I was trying to rack my brain during lockdown. Like, how do I do my job? Six feet away from someone like, I have to be like, I have to touch you. Like I have to cut your bangs and basically in your mouth, what I'm kind of like, how am I going to do this? And I, I, I took this, this pandemic very seriously because I, I have so many loved ones that it wouldn't be good if they got it.3 (1h 5m 48s):So I just decided to take a chance and open my own salon where it's, COVID, it's basically, COVID free and people have to be like fully vaccinated and show me their card. And I have air purifiers. We wear masks. It's just a single room with me and my client one at a time. And what's so wild is I thought I was going to shoot myself in the foot. When I said, you have to be vaccinated or else I can't take you, but there are all these unicorns, all over Tulsa, Oklahoma, they come to me and honestly, business is booming. It's never been better. And it's wonderful because it's just me and it's, it's very private.3 (1h 6m 29s):We don't have to worry about, we can talk politics as loud as we want, because there's nobody sitting next to us. Like, you know, looking at us up and down or telling us we're wrong. Or so there are good people here and they're all my clients.2 (1h 6m 45s):And by establishing those boundaries, you created the unicorn club where everybody can, is drawn to you because you've established from the outset, what your thing is. And that makes people understand what is, and isn't tolerated by you. And then that makes, that draws all the right people to you.3 (1h 7m 3s):And I will say, I will tell you, I don't think I'll ever work for anyone ever again. Like, I don't think I'll ever have a boss ever again. I mean, I I'll work with someone at least in the hair world, but oh my God. Being your own boss, you guys is the best. I highly recommend it.1 (1h 7m 21s):So, Scott, how did you end up? So what was the transition like leaving LA? Like, did you, did you go out in a fi like me in a fiery blaze of driving drunk into a swimming pool? Or like, did you,3 (1h 7m 34s):I, you know, again, like, I'm very lucky that I, I moved to New York. So when I quit, I was so I decided, I was like, okay, I'm done with, with acting for a while. I'm going to take some time off. And then I was like, well, why am I living in Hollywood? I've always wanted to live in New York. So I moved to New York partied and worked retail for four years. It was kind of tired of being like a broke college student. And I'm like, well, let's go back to LA where at least it's a little bit easier. And the weather's nice. And I went back to LA this whole time, by the way, never sucked partying. Right. And I got to the point where I was like, you know, I don't think that I can be here. It's too triggering for me to go out and dance.3 (1h 8m 15s):And it graduated from ecstasy to speed. And I was a functioning addict, but I was like the only way I'm going to be able to not get fired from work. And I, I really just wanted like two months to sleep, to catch up. So I went to rehab, which was one of the best things I ever did. And I learned that I am a drug addict, but I'm not an alcoholic because drinking was never my thing. It's still really kind of, not my thing through lockdown. I will say. I mean, I was guilty of maybe pouring a martini at like 10:00 AM, because I felt like we were all living in Vegas and nobody had any idea what day or time it was.3 (1h 8m 58s):But, but yeah, no, so I can socially drink and that's fine. But I just was like, I'm going to die if I stay here. And my mom got divorced from my stepdad and I wanted to come back to Tulsa to check on her. It was, I was like three months. That's it? And then it was weird. Like growing up here, there was nothing happening. And coming back here, I think I changed, but also to also change a little bit for the better. So like the best nightclubs, like the best shopping. No, not here, but that's not the most important to me. And like the traffic's not bad here. The cost of living is real cute here. And I met my husband here on grinder, by the way, Gina,2 (1h 9m 44s):I love that. That's beautiful. I mean, you guys, what would it take? I'm just thinking about your experience there. Like they built you all the way up the first day you got to LA it couldn't go any higher than that. You got to stay an extra day. You gotta to your meeting after meeting. Well, you know, P people like me and boss are like going to the beach and whatever is she wasting her time in LA because we were getting any minis. So everybody loved, you got a standing ovation, you got Rick Murphy to say you did great. And then it was a process after, you know, some sex successes of getting jobs. Then it was a process of like tearing you down. When if there could have been a way for you to tolerate or survive the rejection, you might've stayed and had like a sane career.2 (1h 10m 33s):I think that's the problem is like, there's no sane career. It seems like, and you like either go balls to the wall and, and burn, you know, crash and burn, right? Like, so what would it take to have an environment that was even just 10% more psychologically minded? I mean, I'm interested to pause to what you have to say about that.1 (1h 10m 58s):Well, I think it would take each so interesting. It's such a business for me anyway, that thrives on youth. Right? And, and, and when we're young, our brains aren't fully formed. So you've got weird ass people running around doing weird ass shit and their brains aren't formed. So I think it would have to, for me with literally have to take us embracing the knowledge and wherewithal of people as they get older and not so much capitalizing on youth because you don't know shit and we can't know anything. So when you're youth centric industry, it's, it's a mess.1 (1h 11m 39s):So what, what, what I would say is like D what would it, what it's going to take is people to say, oh, wait, people of all ages of all races of all can have careers. And I think then it becomes less of a, like, I have to capitalize on what is hot right now, right now, because later is not going to be so hot. It would take a more holistic view of like the human experience. And I there's so much money involved. I'm not sure. And I think coming back at 46 and doing this, and I'm not really trying to be an actor, but as a writer, I'm seeing that, like, you kind of have to go away from like 25 to 40 and come back to LA, if you're going to do it,2 (1h 12m 22s):Dude, that I just had this image, like it's, it's LA has kind of run like, like porn. Like, it's all about, like, what's going to get you off, like in five seconds, instead of anything beyond what's going to happen in five seconds. And there's a, there's like a short term memory problem. There's a 'cause I think you described by the way about being the, you know, the thing of the moment, whatever Sean said, the same thing Shawn said, I think that I was able to do what I was able to do, because I just had a particular look at a particular time when they were just looking for my look, you know?2 (1h 13m 2s):And that's important for, to, to say again to people out there, like, if you don't succeed, you can't necessarily say it's because of your talent. It really could be like, it's just not the, it's just not your moment. Your Hollywood is not having the you moment right now. It might have had it 10 years ago. It might have it in 10 years. It's just not right now.3 (1h 13m 26s):Amen to that. I, I fully agree with you on that. And, and what I love now is that, you know, everyone's writing, it's like, I remember my agency said, you know, you're just not like anybody else. So we're just going t
Intro: Boz's brain hurts, Ozark, the ordinariness of crime, drug running in Tijuana, Molly, Jerry Harris and Season 2 of Cheer, unpleasant surprisesLet Me Run This By You: I didn't do anything wrong.Interview: We talk to Carolyn Hoerdemann about Steppenwolf's From The Page to The Stage, John C. Reilly, tenacity, hyper-empaths, Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, Tarrell Alvin McCraney, feminist theatre, Pump Boys and Dinettes, Faith Wilding, Rob Chambers' Bagdad Cafe, Ominous Clam, Zak Orth, Good Person of Szechwan, European Repertory's production of Agamemnon, Danny Mastrogiorgio, Michael Moore's Roger & Me, Chicago Shakespeare Theater, the anti-memoir memoir, and Ann Dowd.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I have a place to go to do with, it's not my one bedroom with my dog and my husband, but it's still a lot of work, like an and so, and then on top of that, I mean, I just feel like literally, you know what, I texted you yesterday and you said you knew the feeling like my brain is hurting me, but not in a bad way.1 (50s):I don't have a headache. Like I don't, I just was, you know, telling our couple surface, like, I feel like I can literally hear my brain turning and growing and groaning and like working. I've never had that feeling before in my life, which is weird. But like that, that feeling of, oh, I'm doing or knowing that what it was, what it was like, I'm doing a lot of work, you know, like my brain is doing so ridiculous, but that's how I feel, but it's all like, it, it doesn't feel, you know, what it is. I'm used to doing a lot of physical work.1 (1m 32s):Like I'm used to my body doing a lot of work. Like whether it's, you know, like the jobs I've had, like even the jobs that I, when I was a therapist account, you know, a counselor at social services, like I spent a lot of my time, like moving cases of diet Coke and cause we were in like a halfway house. So like I did a lot of manual labor and lot and case management and case management management is a lot of manual labor, like taking clients to appointments. And like, so when using my brain now in this different way, like literally I wished I would have been a camera on me when I was redoing my resume and cover letter specifically for the ad industry, because it is like making something out of nothing and also using words to like basically, you know, trick people, not trick people, but you know, get them to think what you want them to think.1 (2m 27s):And you think, oh, well she's, you know, television writing. The thing about that is like, you can make up anything like television writing really. You can really say, and then pigs flew out of his asshole and then people are like, oh, that's a weird show. But when you're trying to sell yourself to a particular industry with a particular set of skills, trying to make your skills meld into the skills they want, I was like, I couldn't see. After a while I was like, I don't even know what this, like using words like in this space, you leave space is a big word now.2 (2m 59s):So Metta that you are selling yourself to an advertising1 (3m 8s):Up girl.2 (3m 10s):So the PR how I understand it is there is somebody affiliated with this that is an advocate of yours, a champion of yours. And she wants, she wants you in that industry.1 (3m 23s):Okay. Yes, you are understanding. And there's like multiple things here. So she's, she's a screenwriter that I met and she continued on with the master's program. But her big job is her. Her day job is she's like a creative director at an ad agency in the, in the copy department. Right? So she's a big wig and she edits, she's like, she's the big editor there right at this. And I guess they hop around from agency to agency. Look, I don't know how it works, but so she started this new job and she's like, I want you to come work in the copyright. She also gets a very large bonus for every person that comes on that she refers, which I good look, do what you need to do.1 (4m 6s):But I think it's like five grand per person that she brings. I that's what I'm led to believe from the website. So anyway, there's like a, and so she literally Gina. So I sent her my updated resume and cover letter letter looked great. And then she applied me for 30 jobs. So then I have two.2 (4m 27s):Wow.1 (4m 29s):So which sounds great, which is awesome. Copywriting, all different kinds of copywriting. But for each of those jobs, I have to fill out demographic form. So last night I literally was up after myself tapes one self-tape last night clicking. I am not a veteran. Yes, I am Latina. No, I'm not disabled2 (4m 53s):Online. I was going to say, why don't they have one form, but it's1 (4m 58s):Yeah. It's a different job number. Right? So like every time, oh my God. So then, and sign, you have to sign every, so I literally was like, by the time I went to that, my brain, I was like, what? I'm not a veteran. I'm not a veteran like that. I was like mumbling to myself. And so, so, but I have to say like, you know, it's a good skill to build for. Like, I think that thing about, we only use 5% of our brain. They they've like debunked that right. They've said like that. You can't, but I'm telling you my brain, just like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. My brain is like literally growing three side.1 (5m 41s):I don't know if it's three sizes, but it's, I can feel my, my, my like pathways changing in terms of the skills that I'm using. So that's great. You know,2 (5m 51s):I don't know. I mean, it can't be bad. Nothing. The good news is all of this work you're doing can't lead to anything bad to something. Yeah. Not illegal, You know, honestly, it's really saying something. I finally started watching Ozark. Oh God. And I, what strikes me about it is like, oh, this is not, it's not that this could happen to anybody, but you just think about like how ordinary crime really can be, you know, and how criminals aren't all in a layer or living in a way it's just, it's just moms and dads and, and people who need it, who need money in and who needs to run around and get it right quick.2 (6m 40s):Yeah. And I don't know, I will, I'm only one, not even the full first season in, so there may be a lot of stuff that I don't know, but like, it seems to me that this Jason Bateman guy was just a regular guy who got kind of wrapped up in this criminal enterprise1 (6m 58s):Didn't happen. You, I can see like most of my clients that I saw like were knowingly doing, you know, they were like, oh, I'm going to be a drug dealer and a gang member now. And no, but there were occasionally people that got involved in like scams, you know, financial fraud that you could see how it would start off and, and, and case in point miles. And I have a friend, an older guy, friend, we won't name because this is so illegal was like, Hey, what are you guys doing over Christmas break? And we're like, we're going, doing whatever. And he's like, Hey, do you want to, I shit, you not do you, if you'd let me know if you want to make some money, driving a camper from here to Tijuana.1 (7m 41s):And I, why like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, we'll give you like each $5,000 of it. And I said, well, what do you mean? Why do you need the, the, the, the camper and Tijuana? And he was like, oh, there's drugs in it. There's marijuana. And I was like, no. And miles was like, absolutely not. I'm like, have you met miles? Are you boy?2 (8m 3s):Oh, not, not marijuana, I guess,1 (8m 5s):Because it's marijuana. I don't, I don't2 (8m 7s):Think it's legal. Why do they have to do1 (8m 9s):That? I don't know. I think it was like a mass quantity or something like that. I don't know. Like, you're not allowed to like traffic, like large amounts of marijuana from different countries to over the border. Like, but so, especially in Mexico, like what? So I don't know. And we were like, Myles was like, absolutely not. I mean, miles is a lawyer. Like, what are you talking about?2 (8m 34s):Well, it's funny how just one casual aside a reference can really change your whole perspective on somebody you've known for a long time. Like I thought I've been in that situation before, you know, you think, you know, somebody and then they just casually say like, well, you know, we're swingers or1 (8m 55s):The other, the other, the other day I was meeting with somebody. Totally. And this actually didn't make me think less of him, but it was just like, he's like a totally looks like a total straight laced guy. If you're going to look at him, you know, white dude, thirties, balding, whatever. And he's like, yeah, I met him like the first time I, he was talking and he was like, oh yeah, the first time we met, we did Molly. And I was like, wait, what? At first I thought, Tina that's crystal meth. And I thought, but that wasn't, that it's Molly is whatever, HBM,2 (9m 25s):Whatever,1 (9m 26s):MTMA Molly. And I, like, I was so weird and we're like old people, what is happening? It's sitting in a cafe and you're talking about Molly. I don't know. I just it's, it totally rocked my world, which is, I think why I like to write too is because I do like to write those things in where you're like, wait, what? You know? Like, like,2 (9m 53s):Yeah, I have to say just, just the thought of learning, something like that, about somebody that I know is scary to me. And it, it just made me remember that I, after you mentioned season two of cheer, I started watching it. And I forgotten about the whole thing about that guy, Jerry Harris. And it was so heartbreaking to me when that happened. Not that it's worse or better if the person is well-known, it's just, you know, he, he seemed like a person who has such a hard life and it seemed like he was finally getting some, you know, something that he really deserved.2 (10m 38s):And then, and of course, I understand that when I hurt that hurt people, hurt people. And that he was probably doing this because this has been done to him. I don't know, man, I don't, these are surprises. I don't care for, I wanted it to stand for the rug and like for these kids to go on and being abused, that's not it at all. It's just, it's so disheartening. Well, it's really1 (11m 5s):It's. So there is, so yeah, it goes beyond grief. It's like goes beyond disappointment. It's like grief. And it's also, I think for me anyway, and I don't know about for you recreates the feeling of which is what I felt all the time with my parents, which is, oh, I know these people. I can trust these people. Oh God, I'm not safe around these2 (11m 30s):People. Okay. Thank you. That's exactly what it is.1 (11m 33s):I have that experience in Los Angeles, 40 times a day. Right. We're like, I want to like someone and then they'll say some fucking shit. And you're like, okay, well this is, you're a psychopath. Okay. Right. Like I'm talking to this. There's like, I meet them all the time at co-working because you know, co-working attracts like everybody, you just have to have money to have an office here. It's not like they, you know, vet people and some I'll be having a conversation with someone who seems relatively normal. And then they'll be like, oh yeah. You know, I was like, I really admire this Japanese porn star that like really knew what she wanted in life.1 (12m 13s):And it's not that there's anything wrong with being a Japanese porn star. It's that this guy like casually dropping, you know, and then talking about the kind of porn she does in a coworking setting. I I'm like, dude, I gotta go. I gotta make a fucking resume over here. Like I don't need to, but it's it's that in with him. It's just, I was just more like, oh, you're that you're going to bring this up to a stranger. Then I'm getting better about like, what's safe and not safe. But I do think that when you invest in something like Jerry or the cheer or a parent, and then they fucking do some shit, you're like, oh great. I'm not safe with you. That's,2 (12m 50s):It's what it is. It makes the feeling of own. And then, because I tend towards misanthropy, I'm like, okay, nobody's say if you can't trust anybody, everybody's out to get you, which is not true either. But it becomes, that is my defensive posture that I immediately tack back to, you know, I could go away thinking like, oh, there's goodness in the world. And some people and humans are inherently good. And then boom, something happens and I fail. And instead of, and I don't do the opposite when somebody does something good. I don't say yes, it's P you know what I mean? I don't, I don't have the same positive connotation that when somebody does something bad, it makes me say everybody's terrible.1 (13m 34s):It's really interesting because I'm having the experience of having to, what is it? So having to have a little more caution with people, I tend to really, really, really love everybody at first. Like really like I'm like, that person is awesome, but then they start talking crazy shit. And in the past I would have dismissed it and been like, no, I'm just sensitive. Right. Or I'm just so I'm trying now to be like, no, I wasn't there. When I was in therapy yesterday, I was like, no, no. Like in that moment I felt like this is not good for me.1 (14m 16s):And if I am not going to stand up for myself and take care of myself, nobody else is. So I have to mix a little more of the caution in with my, what can be Pollyanna kind of stuff. I have to be mindful of what my instincts are telling me about somebody, because I then will end up, you know, talking about very explicit Japanese porn techniques for half an hour and then walk away feeling violated and fucked up.2 (14m 49s):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I knew this. I ha I know somebody who's exceedingly reserved. She doesn't, I like her I'm we're friends, but she doesn't tell you anything about herself. Like, or it takes a long time. And it's just this little snip, like, as an example, I don't know how old she is. And I bring up my age all the time and I, and I think she's younger than I am, but somebody recently said, oh, actually I don't think she's. I think she's more like your age, but that's, but she's never chimed in whenever I've said anything about how old I am.2 (15m 31s):She, she, she won't tell she's, she's a mystery. And on the one hand, I think, oh, she's just, she's just protecting herself for the reason that you just said. I mean, you know, she, she knows me kind of, but it's not like she really, really knows me. Some people really wait until some people don't just give out their confidence to anybody for some people you really, and I, you know, I guess like good for her. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know. I, I tend to be more like you, not that I love everybody, but that I assume, I assume everybody has good intentions.2 (16m 13s):And, and then it's very surprising and sad and shocking to me when they don't like the thing that happened to me last week, this fricking guy, I was at the, I was picking my son up from tennis and where I've been, where I've been. Yes. And the place has bad vibes. I, I w I don't like the place. The parking is annoying, but yeah, the parking is annoying anyway. So you're, you're not supposed to wait by the curb. The parents aren't supposed to wait by the curb and align for their kids to come out, but everybody does. Right. It's just how it goes. Cause there's nowhere to go. Right. And it's, and it's been really icy here. So even sometimes I will park whatever, but this time I'm thinking, well, it's really icy.2 (16m 57s):And I just don't want him to, it's not lit up really in the parking lot. I just don't want him to fall. So I'm waiting in line and the guy in the car behind me hunks, and I, I assume he's not honking at me. Why would he behind me? Me? I'm just, my car is just sitting there honks again. Hong's a third time. And I put my arm out, like, go, go around. I just thought maybe he didn't think he could go around me. I still honking. So I just kind of opened the door a little bit. I look behind me and I'm like, what's the deal? And he's just yelling something. So I think, okay, whatever, I'll just loop around, pull over, go through the parking lot, turn to come back. And the guy I had the right of way.2 (17m 39s):And he just zoomed in, in front of me made so that I had to slam on the same guy. So I had to slam on my brakes, but then he gets out of the car and walks up, walks over to me. Of course, I lock my doors and he's like just screaming obscenities at me. Now later on, I had the thought this of course had nothing to do with me. Of course, this is how, you know, I didn't do anything wrong. This is about a person who really wanted to kick the dog. And he found that he found somebody to, to do that with absolutely. But I tend to go through my life in kind of this bubble of like, everybody's got everybody's well-intended and maybe even he was well-intended it just, it just didn't come across in the, in this experience.2 (18m 30s):And1 (18m 32s):Did he walk away?2 (18m 34s):I said, get the fuck away from me. Get the fuck away from me. By the way, my dog was in the back of my dog, who barks at literally every leaf like Wallace.1 (18m 54s):What kind of wing man are you? You fucker anyway. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think those experiences are very particularly about driving and cars and obviously there's a whole road rage. Like there's literally a television show about road rage, right? Like the truth really? Oh my God. Yeah. It's a horrible it's so triggering. Don't watch it, but okay. I mean, yeah, it's ridiculous. But that being said it's very, to me, what happens to me in that situation? I'm sorry, that happened to you is yeah. Like what you mentioned on social media, which is feeling completely powerless and like, it's scary.1 (19m 38s):It's out of control. It's traumatizing. It's I, it's not good. It's not good. And it is also to me that what the feeling is being ambushed, right? Like you're being ambushed by, by a fucking crazy ass and you didn't do anything wrong. See, the thing is, I get into this thing of like, I didn't do anything wrong. And again, if I can get to the core of it, which is as a kid, I literally didn't do anything wrong. And all this shit rained down upon me, this trauma and this and this in this bullying and this whatever. And it triggers that in me. Like, wait a minute.1 (20m 19s):I, all I'm trying to do is do good, protect my son, pick up my thing, do this merge into the fucking freeway. It doesn't matter. And then I get like, this is not fair. Like I get really hurt is what it is. I get hurt. I'm shocked and hurt. And then the person, there is no, there is no resolution, right? Like the guy doesn't then call you later and say, I'm so sorry I acted a Dick. Or you can't even call the police and be like, this guy acted like a Dick. We're like, they're like, well, did he threaten you? No. Did he? Then they're like, fuck yourself.2 (21m 5s):Right. To say that it's, it is linked to, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family. I'm for myself, looking a little bit more deeply into that. And because I, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but for me, I think that I have said that I think that I have convinced myself that I'm never doing anything wrong, you know? And, and not just say that I was doing something necessarily wrong in the situation with the sky, although actually, you know, if I could have crafted it better, I would have paid attention to the flag from really from the first time they honk, which is like, there's something wrong with this person.2 (21m 51s):Do you know what I mean? Like, and yes,1 (21m 55s):Like get away, let me remove2 (21m 57s):My instinct. My instinct is to want to fight back. In fact, I remember this time that the some concert or something like that with Aaron, it was early in our relationship. So I was in my early twenties and this guy kept whatever. He kept stepping too close to me something. And I, I pushed him and pushed him. He, and of course, what did he do? He looked at Aaron like, are you gonna like, don't do that to me. I don't want to, you know, and it's, but it's not fair. He's encroaching on my space. He's like fair. Who, who told you the thing that we're going to be fair? Like it's, you know, so I guess that's the thing is I sometimes go out in the world thinking like, I'm an, a student and therefore, you know, nothing.2 (22m 42s):I don't, I shouldn't be getting any demerits. And if I get into merit, it's not my fault. I do that a lot.1 (22m 50s):I have the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I do it where it's like, I, yeah, I have my version of that is like, I'm a nice person. Like I do good. I'm nice. How dare you do bad or do wrong or treat me bad. Yeah. I mean, he it's, all this stuff is so layered. And2 (23m 10s):As far back, like it takes a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so far back. If it took this many years for us to form this way, imagine how long it's going to take us to On the podcast we are talking to Carolyn. Carolyn has a BFA from a theater school and imitate from the school of the art Institute of3 (23m 45s):Chicago. Carolyn is a performer and a professor and a lovely and pathic, amazing human. So please enjoy our conversation with Carolyn Bournemouth.4 (24m 8s):We're not here to talk about cancer. I've got no theaters because the Rick Murphy shirt Murphy's now this is actually made by Kevin Foster, who was my, that student. But I guess so I directed a workshop that he was in. He's a wonderful man. He ended up moving to Alaska, teaching people how to climb ice mountains. And now has a wife and a baby and never left Alaska. So we had that weird connection. Cause I lived in Alaska for the summer in between my first and second year of school, which I guess is it's like another theater school story in a way. I forgot about that one.2 (24m 47s):We're here. So Carolyn Hornimann, congratulations. You survived theater school. Yes you do.4 (24m 56s):You survived it. I know. That's why I bought this very expensive mix. So I would get lots of voiceover work that I never get.2 (25m 2s):Hey, maybe this is going to be your open Amy4 (25m 4s):Visit shit. This is it. This is my ticket. This is my ticket. I love podcasts.2 (25m 10s):So you survived as a student and you teach4 (25m 13s):DePaul. I teach there. I mainly teach the non-majors, which I love, but I have directed a couple of a workshop, intro type things. But many years ago, I keep putting in proposals. They don't ask me to do again, supposedly next year, maybe I will be, which would be awesome because I have this idea to do a version of Bernhardt Hamlet with all genders and just like totally gender fluid. So2 (25m 42s):You have to submit a proposal4 (25m 44s):For a show. That's a whole nother story. I'm probably another podcast, but I have submitted proposals. But oddly enough, a couple of times I did direct. I was just asked to, and that, I guess we're going backwards to go forwards. Are we always bad and make it go forward? Right. Which is that amazing? I think it's David Ball. The book that they made us read called backwards and forwards. Do you guys think I read In HDL, you had to read this book called backwards and forwards. Anyway, I used it in my master's thesis too. Cause it's brilliant. But anyway, backwards and forwards, I was in graduate school.4 (26m 24s):Rick Murphy was like kind of very interested in what I was doing. I was doing work on performing new feminisms and he was like, what the fuck is that? What's going on at the white cards? You can curse. Oh, no podcast. And, and that's a whole nother story because actually Rick Murphy was not my teacher. I had David AVD, Collie, and I went into to Rick Murphy's office. Like I guess it was probably my senior year to ask him advice about wanting to go to London, to study his full cereals. Right. As if I hadn't already been studying for serious. Right. Cause I wanted to go to Europe and be a fancy pants, real actor. And he was like, why are you going to do that? Why don't you just stay here and find a company that does European work.4 (27m 7s):So then I was in the European repertory company for 12 years. Oh,1 (27m 10s):Oh, that's a, that's a nice long run. Is that, is that company still around?4 (27m 14s):No, that's another story.1 (27m 16s):You have so many stories4 (27m 18s):We need to have, like, I have too many stories, too many stories. I don't even1 (27m 21s):Know where to start. Well, here's where I'll start. Did you just let's get the facts? So you went to BFA at the theater school, but you got to be MFA somewhere.4 (27m 32s):Oddly enough. No, I got, what is an M a E a masters of art and art education from the art Institute of Chicago, which is funny. Cause the Goodman started at the art Institute. So I guess I'm like super Chicago already.1 (27m 45s):You did that. Okay. I wanted to get the facts down. That is why. So then I would like to start when you were a child, were you always this awesome where you just like, fuck it. I'm going to4 (27m 59s):Just be crunchy. I have cool glasses, like YouTube,1 (28m 2s):There's serial killer glasses that we have just FYI.4 (28m 7s):I am from a small town down south. And I guess in a way I knew somehow that I wanted to be an actor from like watching old Betty Davis movies with my mom,1 (28m 17s):Her like Betty Davis.4 (28m 20s):And then I, my dad died when I was a sophomore in high school unexpectedly. And I was with my English teacher who taught us Shakespeare. He was fabulous. Mr. Beaver, very eccentric man who was probably gay and was not able to be out in our little small town. And Mr. Beaver took us to another small farm town school bus to all in, to see the show that was coming in from Chicago. And it was from the page to the stage Shakespeare by step and1 (28m 55s):Walk, a little company called4 (28m 59s):John C. Riley was one of the two count of two actors. There was a man and a woman. I wish I knew who she was. I went on deep dive search last night to find out and I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Was that my computer making a noise? Oh,1 (29m 15s):I didn't hear, I didn't hear it either. So something, well, here's the thing I'm sort of in touch with John C. Riley for various weird reasons. So I might ask him,4 (29m 27s):Please ask him, oh, he's the only one that will know. It's not anywhere on the internet. And I don't talk to him, although he's very close with Rick Murphy, oddly enough. They're like buds. But so, so anyway, we're in this, you know, school editorial, I'm watching this Shakespeare show with Jonsi rally and this woman that was also amazing. I hate that. I only know the guy, right. But they had a trunk and they would pull out costumes and props from the trunk. And they went through several scenes of Shakespeare. It was, you know, like devised, wonderful, amazing theater traveling the country, like the old frickin work progress association do used to do with the federal theater, which we should still have. Thank you very much.4 (30m 7s):And I, you know, had the PR I remember holding the program to like, with like, who are these people? What did they do? Where did they go to school? Oh, theater school, DePaul university. That's one question. Okay. How old were you? Like 15 amazing. Maybe 16. Cause I looked and it said it was 86. My dad died in 85. I was 15. I was 16. So I then also had, I was the president of the thespians of Lincoln community high school in Lincoln, Illinois. And I had, we, one of the things that we got was I forgot what it was. Oh, I wish I remembered it was a fabulous name. Like it wasn't forensics theater or something.4 (30m 49s):The, the title of the magazine you would get, it was like a high school theater magazine. And you got a free subscription of that for a year. Cause you, you know, you were the president of the Philippines and it also of course had a wonderful little spread about the theater school. So then I decided it was either going to be NYU theater school. My mom wanted me to go to ISU and kept saying, John Malcovich went there. John Malcovich went there because that was only 45 minutes away from me. So she really wanted me to go there, you know, cause my dad had just fucking died and she and I had moved from the country into the town and she wanted me to stay close, but she wasn't going to say that. But I know that now that that's what she wanted. Plus it was a lot cheaper and also Webster, which is in St. Louis. I think so somehow I got into, I think ISU in Webster, but I don't remember auditioning.4 (31m 33s):I think I just like had to write an essay and say I wanted to go Tish. I didn't even, I don't think pursue it because I couldn't afford to go to New York to audition. I only auditioned at the theater school. I addition to in my junior year I got in and my junior year, I knew where I was going for my senior year of high school. That's awesome. My brother drove me there and his, he had this old convertible. I remember driving down lake shore drive with my brother. It's my brother who now has cancer. And he took me to this audition. I don't know where he went or what he did with his big, long, old, like 67 do you know, muscle car that he had. But I went in and I did the audition and I did the voice and I did the weird movement and I did my two monologues and I don't remember exactly who was there.4 (32m 16s):I think it was maybe Phyllis Gemma stuff. Maybe it was his Carol Delk person who was a movement teacher who then I never really had. But anyway, yeah, I got, I got in, I remember getting the letter. I remember standing on my stairs in my house in Lincoln, Illinois, because then, you know, you've got to actually better in the mail. There's no emails or anything. And I was standing on the stairs is my, mom's stood at the foot of the stairs and opening it and being like, and then she's like, well, you know, we'll figure it out2 (32m 47s):Time out for one second. Do you think that kids think about us opening letters? The way that we think about people opening scrolls1 (32m 55s):Or telegrams? Yeah.4 (32m 59s):I have to explain to my students with snail mail is because at the end of every quarter I send everyone a little card, just a little thank you card. I've been doing it for like 15, 16 years now. So I can't stop now that I started this tradition and I'll ask them for their snail mail and they'll be like, what's that? And then I'll have to explain to them what it is and then they'll give it to me and they'll leave off like there's zip code or the town on her. I'm like, no, you have to put everything.1 (33m 19s):So there is a, I met someone at my coworking space who is like, I think 25 and they didn't know to put stamps on letters. So he just4 (33m 34s):Imagined that he1 (33m 34s):Was going to the post box and I said, oh, you're going to the postbox. I said, oh, you forgot your stamp. He goes, what? I was like, oh my God. Anyway.2 (33m 46s):And also I have to backtrack about one of the things that John C. Reilly thing was that a DePaul production or Novus Devin4 (33m 54s):Oh seven2 (33m 55s):Will forever. Right? Okay.4 (33m 57s):It must've been one of his first jobs out of school cause it was 1986. And I was also looking because there was this amazing picture of him from Gardenia, I think in the brochure. So then not only are in the magazine that I had, I don't think I ever got a brochure in the mail. It was this magazine. I'm going to find out the name of it. Cause it was just a cool little magazine that the theater kids, theater nerd, Scott, and we, and I got it for free when I was the president of, at that speeds. And so there was this wonderful picture that was some of the, you know, lovely glorious lady like grabbing, holding onto his leg or something was very dramatic. And this story goes further because then I'm at the theater school is my freshman year and there was the God squad party.4 (34m 39s):Nobody's really talked about the gods squad a little2 (34m 41s):Bit.4 (34m 43s):So the God squad party, I don't remember who my God parent was. I don't even, I must not been very good cause I have no idea who it was, but I was at this party and John C. Riley was there.2 (34m 56s):You must've been levitating.4 (34m 59s):And Don Elko was there. There was teachers therapy for smoking and drinking with the teachers. I was like, mind blonde, what's going on? And I said, I want it to John C. Riley in the kitchen, leaning up against the kitchen sink with like a beer or something. And I was like, excuse me. I need to tell you it's still on me about why I'm here. You know? Like I got tell him2 (35m 22s):That he's4 (35m 23s):A nice guy. Remember what he said? I don't remember anything. I was just like, that's1 (35m 27s):So good that,4 (35m 29s):And this is before yeah, it was famous. Right. And he might not have even ended up being famous. This is like, I thought he was that famous from skiing. That fricking page, the stage new person traveling around tiny little rural towns of Illinois.1 (35m 45s):That's amazing.4 (35m 47s):So I would love to know what he thinks of that, that show. If he has memories of doing it, who the other,1 (35m 53s):This podcast. I mean like you'll listen, you'll listen to, if you listen to some of the podcasts, you'll hear my John C. Riley story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny.4 (36m 1s):Oh, you have one too. Okay. I've been, I went this way. I have bags. I went down deep dive last night.2 (36m 9s):I love that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they find the podcast go and listen to a bunch of. So what was the experience like for you? You were walking down memory lane. What was it making you feel?4 (36m 21s):Ooh, I don't know. Now it's making me want to cry. It was, you know, I was 17 and I started there. I had no idea what I'd got myself into and a lot of it, you know, really broke my heart, but I also think it may, you know, like everyone else has said it made me who I am, made me kind of a tough skinned bad-ass, but I'm also a hyper empath and have trauma. And so now I have to deal with, you know, all of that in my old age. But I did have experiences there in classes with certain teachers, with certain instructors, certain directors, I lived with five girls in a two bedroom apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden.4 (37m 13s):We were all poor. Nobody could afford anything else I could barely afford to go to showcase. It was only in New York that year was when they went back and forth between New York and LA I guess, or I don't think we'd even started doing LA. It was the only New York and yeah, I don't know. I mean the whole casting pool process, the whole cutting process. I mean, obviously it didn't get cut, but that was, you know, traumatic. I've heard other people talk about how they didn't really think about it or this and that. Like Eric Slater was like, I don't really think about it. And I was like, I have to say,2 (37m 45s):I hope that isn't over the wrong way. A lot of men didn't really4 (37m 47s):Think about it. I was going to say, it goes a little bit ago and I know him, I'm friends with him and sat there for a little bit of privilege there.2 (37m 55s):Just like, it's just, it's like how a fish doesn't know it's in water. Like you just don't know.1 (38m 1s):Yeah. I mean, they just are doing their set dance. Right. And everyone's dancing around them, but we sort of had to do our own thing. What do you think the tears are about? Like when you, when is it just raw motion or is there like tears for young, a young version of you? Or like it's just a lot.4 (38m 22s):I'm a very teary person. I think. I don't know exactly what it is. I'm in therapy. It's I know. I just,1 (38m 29s):I am the same way. Like I,4 (38m 32s):I get, I get overwhelmed. I get really moved just by kind of yeah. And that sort of strange and weird that I'm still there in some weird way. Like I'm an adjunct, I teach the non-majors, but I'm there. And I went back actually, Rick Murphy directed a show that I adapted for the children's theater called the selfish giant and other wild tales. W I L D E all the Oscar Wilde's fairytales and Alvin McCraney was in it. First of all, Oscar Wilde wrote, wrote, he wrote fairytales and I had actually adapted another book that somebody else ended up having the rights to.4 (39m 13s):And so Rick was like, well, you know, I know you really wanted to do that one, but if you find something else, I'll still direct it. And so I was like, okay, let's do this. And so I adapted us, grows fairytales. Awesome. For me to read, love, to read that I can find it somewhere. Might actually be a hard copy of it and I'd have to like scale or something. I don't know where it is. That was like 2002. I think there's also pictures of that. I also found which I didn't know the production history of the theater school online. You get the pictures for almost everything and they're almost all taken by John Bridges, right. Bridges, which is amazing. Cause these, I don't know why I only have these two printed out of the old whore and the sister-in-law from the good person of such one, which actually is like a happy, sad, weird story because I auditioned to be course and I was called back for it and I really wanted it.4 (40m 8s):And it was that awful time where they would post on our side of the theater school, glass doors that casting it like midnight. So we would come there while we waited and we went to the door and not only did I not get it, but one of my friends got it, of course. Cause how were, how was it not going to be your friend gets it? And, and then I see old whore and sister-in-law, and I just, I had heels on and I took them off and I started running and I like cut my feet up, running in the street crying and like old 18 years old. And your sister-in-law told her, well, that's another thing, you know, because of my voice and my larger frame, I've always been cast older.4 (40m 53s):Even in high school. I have a very traumatic story actually being in high school. And my father dying when we were doing cheaper by the dozen, which if you know the story, the dad leaves at the end and doesn't come back cause he dies and we're doing this play. And it was must have been like the end of the rehearsals right before we opened. And my director who was one of the English teachers at my high school, I remember being on the phone with her because I remember exactly where I was standing in my house. And instead of being like really sympathetic about my dad dying, she was talking about how I was the younger of three of the sisters and the girl that got the older sister, which is the part I wanted, who was the daughter of another English teacher who was always getting all the parts I wanted.4 (41m 34s):She didn't have as big of breasts. And my English teacher was like, maybe we can, you know, tape you down. And I thought, why didn't you just cast me as the older sister plus I was wearing this like beautiful, old, like 40 suit. That was my mom's was vintage suit that I loved. So it was kind of tight and probably did really show my frame. I was 15 and my dad had just died. This woman's telling me to tape my breasts down.2 (42m 7s):So yeah,4 (42m 7s):I always, I always got cast older and I can see what2 (42m 10s):He went down the road of wanting to do feminist theater. I mean, it sounds like from an early age, you were, you were made aware of double standards and beauty standards and all that kind of stuff.4 (42m 21s):1994, I think it was, I had graduated. I was auditioning. And it was when you had to look in like this paper for the auditions and there was like a line you called, oh God, I wish I could remember it. It was, you had to call this line and stay on hold forever and listen to all the audition notices. And there was an audition for pump boys and dynamics, which I was excited about. Cause I'd seen it when I was younger with my mom and I thought, oh, that's fun. And it literally said the men will be paid. And I got a fucking article in the Chicago Tribune about that.2 (42m 55s):You did. Oh, tell us about it. You just wrote about,4 (42m 60s):You know, they they're, they're like backpedaling about, it was like, well it's because the musicians they're going to get paid and the musicians are mad at first of all, now I'm thinking back like, why did the musicians have to be men? And you literally still wrote, the men will be paid. He didn't write, the musicians will be pay. So yeah. I don't know how I did it now. Now it's all kind of a blur. I just started calling places and I got a reporter from the Tribune to like talk to me and do a whole article about it.2 (43m 25s):Oh. So you're really tenacious. That's what I'm getting. I'm getting that. You get something, whether it's a goal or you're trying to write an injustice and you attach yourself to it,4 (43m 36s):Right. I'm an Aquarius moon. I know this. Isn't an astrology podcast, but I've looked at your side. I've learned in the last couple of years, I'm Scorpio, sun cancer, rising, thus the tears and then Aquarius moon, thus the righteous justice for all.2 (43m 52s):I love that. I love that you4 (43m 54s):Did tons of work after school ended up doing tons of work like in, in schools, after-school programs, writing and drama programs and things like that, which ended up taking me to go back to graduate school and get the Mae and education. But then that was like a lot of solo performance work I did too, with this woman, faith wilding, who was like, look her up. She likes started women house it, I think Cal arts and like the seventies, she has this famous piece where she rocks in a rocking chair and says, I'll, I'll wait until I'm old enough. I'll wait till I fall in the I'll wait until I'm married. I'll wait. You know, just incredible woman who taught this class called new feminisms. She taught one called body skin sensation.4 (44m 37s):I mean just, and so I was doing all this incredible work again, looking at myself and being a woman and being an actor and what the trauma that I'd been through. And then my thesis was doing a performance experiment with a bunch of young women from all over Chicago, like high school age women talking about their mothers and feminism and teaching them about feminism and1 (45m 1s):Well what, okay, so, so a question for you, first of all, I tidbit I have to share that we ha we spoke with, I think it was Joel Butler who was a stage manager and said that they would come out and walk to tease us. When we were waiting for the list to come home, they would pretend that they had news and go like the people who weren't involved. Anyway, I just have to say the whole thing was a setup. Like the whole thing was a fucking setup. So all it was like the hunger games and it was also that in itself was a play like a theatrical experience of man.4 (45m 41s):I don't really know how they do it now. It's all online.1 (45m 44s):It's all online. Yeah. They sent you an email with your casting, but I'm just saying like, when I look back, my little corner of the world was walk, walk, walk, look at the list. Feel like shit, walk, walk, walk. But there was a whole play happening around us of everyone knew what the fuck was going on. And it was part of the thing to have this sort of, yeah, it was, it was a production, it was a fucking production, a tragedy for most of us. Right? Like, and anyway, it just was interesting to hear the perspective, like everyone knew what was going on and everyone played a part is what I'm saying is what I get from the theater school. Like it was all back in the day. Anyway, it was all part of a thing.1 (46m 24s):And like, you get the idea2 (46m 26s):We're working through for some of the faculty who, you know, themselves couldn't realize their professional dreams. And you know,4 (46m 35s):That makes me so sad. I hope that it's really not1 (46m 40s):Okay. I mean, like it's not okay, but it's like, they, we, a lot of times we talk on this podcast, right. About the psychology of never fixing what you needed to fix in the first place inside of yourself gets fucking played out all over everywhere.4 (46m 54s):We are living in a new time of awakening and people being able to talk about their trauma. That was not that time. And that was also the time, like I said, where the teachers were coming to parties with us and drinking and somebody else was mentioned, somebody else was mentioning, you know, relationships between faculty and students. I only knew a couple of those instances, but yeah, the fact that they happen at all and yeah, yeah. I've found that like in my own teaching, like even, even in the last couple of years and I've been doing it for a long time, I just I've become so much more transparent. Like I talk about my own mental health issues or what's going on with me or I, I check in and check out with them every day. And it's like, what's something beautiful you saw today.4 (47m 35s):What, what are you going to do good for yourself when you leave this zoom glass, whatever, you know, like, so I think that as a culture we're evolving as facilitators instructors teachers, but yeah, we were there at a really hard, whoa time. I, for sure. I mean, you were there pretty shortly after that, but also I had some amazing experiences. I loved Betsy Hamilton. I loved John Jenkins. Jim. I still laugh. I actually had for two years cause Adam second year and fourth year, which nobody did because he randomly taught second year acting one year for some reason. And everybody had him for fourth year for what that was called, like ensemble or exit or whatever the hell it was called.4 (48m 19s):So I had him second and fourth year. He actually told me at one point, heard him out, what you're doing, why are you an actor? You should be a singer. And so then I sang in the, oh no, it was after I sang in this, it was Rob chambers thesis show Baghdad cafe. And I sang backstage live for just a couple parts of the show. Just Rob asked me to do this. I don't even remember how that all came about. And, and you know, Jim being the jazz and music aficionado called me to his office and was like, what are you doing? You should be a singer. Shouldn't be the act. But was that ever a, a w dream of yours to be a singer? I was in rock band called dominance clam I did say I did sing a lot that there was a summer.4 (49m 7s):I wasn't even 21. So I would go, I've sang it like the Metro and I wasn't really supposed to be in there and, and Zach wards and Steve Sal and all these people from my class came to see me. And yeah, I wanted to do that and I would audition for musicals and stuff after I graduated, but just like Marriott Lincoln Shire and all those like fancy places would never hire me. And I would always end up in shows where I sent, but they weren't musicals, you know? And I also think I have a little bit of trauma around singing. I started singing in my church after my dad died. I was the song leader in Catholic church. Believe it or not. And I would go out the night before and be like smoking and drinking with my friends and then sitting on the alter with like the breeze and like, like Christ, what the hell are we doing?4 (49m 55s):I would say at funerals, I sang at my mom's second wedding. I sang at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding, my other brothers. But yeah, I say I sang a lot. I haven't really been singing recently cause I, I usually end up crying when I sing. I had a very traumatic audition, 2008. I think it was where I cried when I was singing the song. And the song was about the girl's dad a little bit on the high note and it cracked and the casting director will remain nameless called my agent and told them that they thought I had mental problems and needed help. Okay. Again, this is something that would never happen today.4 (50m 37s):Right. But it wasn't that long ago, 2008, she also said that I was dressed in appropriately. I wore a forties style suit and a pillbox hat, because that was the period of the show. How is that inappropriate? That's someone who's. And why you calling my agent how intrusive to call my agent and tell them that you think I'm. And then the funny thing about it was I had just gone through a huge breakup and had moved and gotten a new job and all this other stuff was going on, but that had nothing to do with it. And that's nobody's business and I was moved by the song. And don't you want somebody, that's just somebody who, who is scared of their own emotions, like, correct. That's all that is. Yeah. So anyway, I digressed cause that's like post theater, school drama,2 (51m 20s):But I've had auditioning. Okay. So you arrived at the theater school at a tender young age. You4 (51m 28s):17. I was 17 because I have a November birthday, 17.2 (51m 32s):And you did your whole BFA there. Tell us about some of your show experiences.4 (51m 41s):Well, the one that I was going to talk about was the good person of such one. Cause oddly enough, it's the only one that I have printed pictures of. And I don't even remember when or how I acquired them. I think I got them from John Bridges cause he took all these pictures and that one of me is the sister-in-law. I don't know that that one was like a production photo. I think that was him coming up. And he saw me in this moment and like had to get this shot. So not only was I not cast as Shantay, which I want it to be now I'm the, the sister-in-law on the old whore. So I'm like, I'm going to kill this. I had 16 lines between the two characters, my old whore. If you look at that picture, I have a blonde wig. I didn't wear a bra. I have a tube, top, a pleather red skirt. I had these hoes that had a dragon up the side.4 (52m 22s):So it looked like I had a dragon tattoo on my leg and high, high red pumps that I think were mine actually from when I was in a beauty contest in high school anyway, and I got these earrings, oh my God. I think I found those earrings too. They were Chinese lanterns like that opened up, but they were earrings and they were huge. And I smoked a cigar. Oh. And I, I don't know if you remember this or if they did this when you were there, but after shows closed, mainly the main stage shows they had like this post mortem, postpartum, whatever you call it in the lobby and everybody and they would critique. I probably blacked that right out while you sat there and just took it.4 (53m 7s):And, but I don't know if it was during that or like after that, I would just be like walking in the halls and all these teachers, some that I had and some that I hadn't yet even had made a point of coming to tell me how excellent I wasn't that. Sure. And it was not false. It was not put on. But I mean, come on. Those people did not give compliments unless they really felt1 (53m 29s):Whatever. Yeah, yeah,4 (53m 30s):No. And I was like, yeah, cause I freaking killed it. Cause I took it so seriously. I was like, I'm going to make these roles so deep and so real. And if you, if you look on the production photos, they have this screen and, and, and, and people would make shadow play on the screen at the beginning of the show to show like the street life of the pool or the Sichuan and stuff. And I got to ride a bike and I rode a bike across and you see the shadow of the girl on the bike and I'm like, I still look at that. And I'm like that.1 (53m 57s):So do you think that's, I love hearing that. That's a great story for me to hear. For some reason, it just really warm, but warms my heart, but also talks about Gina's calling you on being tenacious. But do you think that that sort of set a tone for, cause what I'm getting from you is that like you're simultaneously a, bad-ass a bit of an outsider never given your chance. Never really given the chance to maybe in terms of outside casting, do what you could really do. So then you take what you get and then you fucking kill it. Does that ring a bell4 (54m 37s):Kind of? I think so. And I think I've always been that way really. And that also being in that show, Joe sloth directed, it was Bertolt Brecht. And really got me thinking about political theater and theater for social movement and theater for change. And I really believe when I graduated and I started doing work at the European repertory company, I believed that doing theater could change the world. You don't think that anymore change sometimes, you know, it beats you down pretty hard when you, when you work and work and work and work and you have to have three other jobs. Cause you're in a theater company that doesn't pay you any money.4 (55m 17s):And I, I still like the best work of my life was at that place. I was client of Nestor and Agamemnon for three years. I mean, I, Y you know, yeah, the best work of my life, but was it going to say that there's a different, and I think it's good. There's a different culture, a different mindset. Now students now would never graduate and say, yes, I'm going to be in a school or I'm going to be in a theater company for 12 years that never pays me and I'm going to have three or four jobs. And it was nice to kind of almost like a martyr, poor theater, Jersey, Petoskey board theater mindset of like, I'm an artist. Well, of course I'm, I'm struggling and I'm poor and I'm, you know, but I'm for the oppressed. And so I must experience that.4 (55m 59s):I don't, I dunno, like it just, I wonder how much I manifested that, right. Because I, I would have auditions for TV and film stuff that I would get close to and just not get, or it took me. I was, I think, 30 when I finally gotten a show at the Goodman or no, wait, I was 30 when I got at apt in Wisconsin. I think I was even older when I got in the show at the Goodman. But anyway, yeah. You know, eventually I have done shows larger theaters, but I still will say, I mean, people that saw the stuff I did at the European rep and I was like 24, 25, but I played clouded minister and it was Steven Berkoff's choir master. So it was like the most rockstar frickin, you know, I made my own costume.4 (56m 41s):It was, it was all like fishnet. And I just like punched my hands through fish nets to make sleeves and high heels and crazy Kabuki makeup. And I stood at the top of this ladder Agamemnon. And I came out at the end with like Hershey's syrup on my hands after I'd feel them. And I was like, I mean, if you saw that as hit, you were blown away, this was three years while we did it, like in a regular run. And then it was so popular. It was so popular that we did it on Friday, Saturday nights, like late night. And then we were doing, cause we want it to be a real repertory. So at the time we were doing Agamemnon Electra, uncle Vanya, and this show called all of them are just, yes.4 (57m 32s):And we would also change this. You remind me, okay, this is what I think Steven Davis was talking about when he said he was in four shows at the same time he, he was in, he was in all those shows and yeah. So, oh my God,2 (57m 51s):That's super intense4 (57m 53s):Looking at my notes2 (57m 54s):That like, though, while you're looking at your notes, I mean, was that draining, not just the number of shows you did4 (58m 4s):The physical training. Well, also I was, yeah, I was like a waitress during the day. I mean, I had a job I had to live and I was a waitress where I could only work lunches because all the shows were at nights. So lunches weren't as busy. And if it was really slow at lunch, I mean, so I would find myself every day while I was working calculating in my head, how many tables I had to have, how many tips I had to get just to make enough for that week to pay the rent, you know? And at the time I was living with two British guys, actually, they're the ones that brought me into the European rep, my friend, Charlie, Charlie Sherman, who is a actor and director in and out of Chicago for years. I met him when I was 18.4 (58m 44s):And I worked at cafe Roma, which was down the street from the school. That was my job. Cause I also worked when I was in school. And so when other people were like, we're going to the dead show. You want to come? I was like, you get, not only do I not have money for that, but I got to work all weekend. Right. So anyway, he, he knew that I wanted to do the play Caligula and he called me up one day and he's like, oh my God, this company is already doing it. Maybe you should audition. And this was right when I got out of school. So I auditioned and I got in the chorus and like the first week, the girl that was supposed to place, Zonea had gotten a movie and left and they were like, okay, now you're the lead. And I was like, okay. And that, and that was the company that I ended up being with for 12 years.4 (59m 27s):But it was exhausting as it was. I know we did. We were also all like drinking and smoking and going to the bar every night after the show is2 (59m 35s):You is a powerful force. I was just thinking the other day, remember when you used to wake up in the morning and no matter what had happened to you the night before, and you're like, okay, well, but anyway, it's time to do it today. I haven't had that feeling in years. I haven't had that. Like I can even when some we've once a day, I'm super excited about, I don't ha I don't wake up with this body, like readiness that I remember feeling in my twenties and thirties. Okay. So look at your notes. What are you, what are some of, some of the points that you wanted to get to?1 (1h 0m 7s):So if a showcase question, I have a showcase. Cause I'm obsessed. Since I live in Los Angeles, now I'm obsessed.4 (1h 0m 12s):Oh my God, are you guys going to try to avoid? No, no, no, no, no,1 (1h 0m 15s):No, no, no. I'm obsessed with the idea of the showcase because I made such an ass out of myself at my showcase that I, we went to LA, but I know you were in New York, but what was that? I'm obsessed with the showcase experience because I think it is really one interesting, but two where DePaul lacked in so many ways to getting people to the showcase and then after the showcase.4 (1h 0m 42s):Okay, great. This was before stars and all that. So nobody was collecting money for us. You just had to, you either had the money or you didn't. And so I was able to get enough money to buy a plane ticket, but then I wasn't going to have anywhere to stay. So my friend, Sarah Wilkinson, who was also at the school, but a couple of years behind me, her boyfriend, Daniel master Giorgio, who's also been in a lot of TV shows and on, on, you know, Lincoln stage and public theater, like this dude that went to Juilliard, actually I stayed in his dorm at Juilliard on the floor cause I didn't have money to stay anywhere. And I also could only stay for like a couple of days where like other people were like staying the rest of the week or going out and partying.4 (1h 1m 23s):And I remember having like just enough money to do one of the things people were doing, which was go to a jazz club with Frick and Jim Osstell Hoff, which I did. And that was really cool. The other part of that, that was kind of messed up was in the, in the, you know, audition class that Jane alderman, God rest her soul. And I love her dearly and became closer to her. I probably more after school than during school, but in our audition class where you brought, you know, monologues, I had brought this monologue and then she loved it and wanted me to do it and was just like, that's the, when you're doing. And then I had this total panic about it and was like, I don't think this is right. I don't think this shows me in a good light.4 (1h 2m 3s):I'm going to pick something else. And I don't remember what my other second or third choice was. I did, I did have something else. And I remember calling her on the phone. I don't know if I called her office or at home. And again, before cell phones. So I remember the little window I was sitting in my apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden on our little phone, talking to Jane alderman, all nervous. Cause I was going to tell her I'm not doing that when it's not right for me. And she still talked me into it and I did this monologue from Roger and me, the film. Did you see it?2 (1h 2m 34s):The Michael Moore movie4 (1h 2m 36s):About the Michael Moore movie, Roger,2 (1h 2m 40s):The documentary about the auto industry. I mean, yeah.4 (1h 2m 44s):Yes. And it was the poor woman, poor white woman who sold rabbits. Pets are mate. Right? Pets are me. Got it.2 (1h 2m 55s):That's what I did. Wait a minute though. I have a feeling.4 (1h 2m 60s):So I actually became, I probably did, but I actually came from where they had tried to, to suppress and to change and to mold me into anything. But this hit girl from Southern Illinois. And then I did that. Right. And that's what I, I wore my boots. I wear my cowboy boots. I think I had my friend's jacket on my long hair. And I came out and I was like pets for me. Oh my God, mortified, mortified. And I only got, I got like a couple of calls, like one was from like a soap opera. And then another one, I don't remember. That was another weird thing. Like the same thing with the casting call we waited in, I was in somebody else's hotel room.4 (1h 3m 42s):Cause remember I didn't have a hotel. I was staying on the other side of town and the dorm room of somebody who went to Julliard. And so we're in somebody's hotel room waiting for Jim Mostel Hoff. And whoever else was with us to come in with like this list, it was literal. It was like my notes here. There was just like tiny pieces of paper with like telling us who got what calls. Some people were like, got nothing, got 10 that too, about whatever. Yeah. And, and mine were not meetings. Mine were just like, these people want you to call them or send your resume. I was like, they already got my resume. Everybody got what, what? So, you know, like I wanted to move to New York. I wanted to be a New York fancy actor, you know? So that was like really devastating too.4 (1h 4m 23s):But then I was like, well, if I don't get that, I'm going to be an amazing Chicago theater actor. And I'm going to show everybody that Chicago theater is actually better anyway.2 (1h 4m 31s):Yeah. I don't to remember VAs if I've told this on the podcast before, but remember how I did that thing or if I didn't get any meetings. And so then I snuck into administrative office at DePaul after showcase and I found a list of all of our names and everybody had gotten, everybody had agencies or agents names written next to theirs, but not everybody was told that. Yeah. Yeah. So,4 (1h 5m 5s):Oh, podcasts, then couldn't see my face gaping. Now what, what did you do? Did you tell, did you, what?2 (1h 5m 12s):I swallowed it and carried it around resentfully for the next 20 years. Yes ma'am I did my God. And you know, who knows? Maybe there was an important reason for that. Maybe it was, these are shady characters. I don't know what it would have been, but I, I know that I would have4 (1h 5m 36s):That you didn't feel. Yeah. I feel so bad for you that you didn't feel like you could, you know, go further, ask more. I don't know. Probably2 (1h 5m 44s):Carolyn it probably didn't occur to me. I'm sure it did. I'm sure. The way I thought about it was, well, this has happened now. It is over, this is the thing that it is forever such. I just, I would have never thought that way. I would have never thought to advocate for myself. I mean, I fought to find out,4 (1h 6m 4s):Snuck in there. You thought, well, enough of yourself to sneak in there,2 (1h 6m 9s):You know, whatever. That's that's for me to figure out because I, I, I that's what, but that's what I did with it. I, I took it. I took a carried it around like a shame instead of, oh, by the way, I didn't mean to blow anybody up. I just needed to say like, what's the deal? Like what happened happened, right. Yeah.1 (1h 6m 29s):I feel like it's interesting. It is. It is. It is just really, now that we have this podcast, we spend a lot of our time being like, well, yeah, what's the deal. Why did that happen? And, and what,4 (1h 6m 41s):I wonder what John Bridges or somebody like that would say about that.2 (1h 6m 46s):I I'm sure. John Bridges, who is a theater school loyalist to the end when say that, that I, that I misunderstood. He tells them he doesn't tell the truth. I'm saying, listen. And, and by that I've said a thousand times we understand that we couldn't possibly know all of the factors that went into any decisions like casting and stuff like that. And that there are certain things that happened. That felt terrible. That were for my own good, you know, but Yeah, because getting back to that whole thing about casting, I mean, I'm sure that the guiding principle in their minds was, this is what it's like, you know, you want to move to New York.2 (1h 7m 33s):I mean, Don, we had another person on here who told us living in New York. You, you you'd have to go wait in line in the morning at a theater so that you could get your audition later. And if you wanted to have, it had to be a lunchtime thing, so you could leave work. And those sl
Intro: The 90s are back and so is Gina on the Adam McKay train, Joe Vs. the Volcano, Dan Hedaya, absurdism, hating the planet, Don't Look Up, #whatdosingleasianwomendoafterwork Let Me Run This By You: putting yourself in a new and unfamiliar context, Michael Shannon's Red Orchid theatre, Wallace Shawn's Evening at the Talk House, asshole casting directors, wearing ear pieces, when Boz got a perm, Art and Science Hair Salon. Interview: We talk to Jenna Ebersberger about growing up in LA, Columbia College, Second City, the Groundlings, Barbara Robertson, Wondery, My Favorite Murder
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Intro: Jen has achieved nirvana: she looks like a serial killer! Farsightedness, migraines, deep work in therapy, all families need case management, Gina navigates an interpersonal conflict in a way that she wouldn't mind if anyone on Twitter read about it. Let Me Run This By You: Is Adam McKay turning into Michael Moore? Don't Look Up, The Big Short, Interview: We talk to Joel Butler about stage management, Blue Man Group, and the benefits of saying no to the actor's life.
Intro: Boz celebrates an important milestone, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst, when your therapist doesn't talk, when your therapist falls asleep, approach avoidance. Main Course: We don't believe in resolutions, Danish serial killers, The Chestnut Man, skiing, Elizabeth Holmes, The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Sante Fe New Mexico, Heder, control issues, Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, Cobra Kai, reliably good chuckles.
Interview: TikToks about terrible haircuts, Chris Noth, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Jose Canseco, Ringling Bros Clown College, Notre Dame High School, Steve Smith, Oakton Community College, being the youngest clown in the circus, clowning in Japan, Piven Theatre workshop, Auguste clownery, Reduced Shakespeare Company, losing his wife to cancer, Sebastian Maniscalco, Second City, The By Your Side Autism Podcast, Yes And.
Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and FancyLet Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHINGCOMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school2 (12s):Together. We survived it.1 (14s):You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all2 (21s):Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (31s):Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.1 (1m 22s):It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.1 (2m 4s):And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.1 (2m 47s):I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.3 (3m 10s):I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.3 (3m 51s):Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.3 (4m 32s):So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.3 (5m 15s):Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.3 (5m 57s):You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.1 (6m 9s):And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.3 (6m 23s):It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause1 (6m 41s):Your mom left you a spree for, oh3 (6m 43s):My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.3 (7m 23s):I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.3 (8m 6s):City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I can upgrade to a room. You can bid on rooms on the train, right. Cause it's 10 hours or whatever. And I was like, okay, let me, and they took my bid of, you know, $40 or something to upgrade to a room. And that has all the amazing meals included. So two meals, which lunches, if you just paid for it is 25.3 (8m 49s):Dinner is 45. So I got lunch and dinner free. And I just tipped to the, and it was delicious salmon. I mean like this, and I got my own room and I wrote, and I, I like lived, lived my best life on the train1 (9m 5s):Girl. I need to do this, but I don't live in California. I mean, maybe I'll just pick a, maybe I'll pick it east coast version of that.3 (9m 16s):It doesn't matter. Like you could, you can also take it like they have specials. Like there's apparently a really beautiful ride between DC and New York. So1 (9m 29s):Yeah, no. So I also love or have loved the idea of train travel. And I always really wanted to take, there's a, there's a train that goes somehow through the Rockies. That's the one I really want to go on. But the first time I treated myself to a train trip. Oh, that's right. The worst possible3 (9m 53s):You were pregnant. Right.1 (9m 55s):I was the worst possible route to, we went from Chicago to Texas. So there's nothing to look at. The train was disgusting. It was so dirty and I was pregnant. So my, you know, my sense of smell, which is already very heightened was even, was just off the chain. And as a result of being on that train, I developed3 (10m 24s):Vertigo. I'm like, God, I mean,1 (10m 26s):It was coincidental. I never, we never did figure out what the deal was. But I developed a kind of vertigo when I was pregnant, where I had to crawl on the floor because I couldn't, you know, cause I couldn't walk and thankfully knock on wood that has not returned to me. And it also didn't return to my next two pregnancies, but yet it soured me and us on trains. But I think it's just the route we picked. We need to pick3 (10m 57s):It's the route and yeah, definitely don't have, don't be pregnant, but that's not going to happen for you again. So you don't have to worry about that. But like I'm all done with that. And so I had a great trip and I actually had like these huge realizations while I was there about, about working about money, about the entertainment industry, it was really, it was I, and I went with the intention of really looking at what is it that I'm going for in life? I mean, that's such a huge question, but like what, where am I trying to go? And, and the idea of service, right? So I always thought being of service was about other people, but really what it is for me is being of service in the way that I want to be of service is actually for me, like I didn't realize that I feel is good for my mental, physical, and emotional health when I'm being of service in a way that feels not to pleading, but all, but like really energizing and also like a, like thinking about legacy, I've also been thinking about legacy, like what is my, what is going to be my legacy?3 (12m 12s):And it tied into like, I was really, you know, I spend because the holidays are coming up way too much. It will not wait too much, but a lot of money on my nieces and nephew for Christmas gifts, right? Like thousands of dollars, right. Dish, I love giving gifts. It's my jam. But then I realized that like, and you probably, you know, I'd be so interested to hear what you have to say, but having children, but like a lot of this stuff, I got them, they outgrow, they don't care about very soon is cheaply made and is garbagey. And it has a very, very little lasting effect on their lives. And that's just the truth and I'm not judging it.3 (12m 52s):I'm just saying that seemed, that was the data I was picking up. And I'm like, that's literally like just throwing money away after a while year after year. So there's a, let me get smart about this. So we started a trust for each kid where we put that and I said to that shutter dude, I wish someone had done that for my ass. So I said to them, you can choose, we can keep going the way we're doing with gifts for Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Or you can, we can put donate every year and you could literally get very, very, very few gifts. But your huge gift is that each year we put a certain amount of money. And then basically by the time you're 30, you'll be millionaires.3 (13m 36s):I mean, just because of the way money grows, not even because we're putting that much in. And they were like, what? And so miles really educated me and them on the power of, of the investing money in a way that is with the interest and all that shit. And so that's what we're doing. And I, I got to say like, it tied into this idea of legacy and like, I would watch rather have those kiddos like be able to use it. And it's not like one of these things where they have to use it for college because fuck it, man, not everyone goes to goddamn college right away or ever, but they can't touch it until they're a certain age or they can choose to keep it in there and roll it over to another kind of account or whatever.3 (14m 17s):So, but I'm thinking about this shit differently in terms of legacy based on like, what do I want to leave this earth? Like, do I want to, you know, have, have my legacy be that I gave my, my niece to like a fake Dior ring that turned her finger green or right, right. It's fine. But it's so that's how we started it this Christmas. Cause I was like enough, enough, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what you've just given us here in this conversation is like the center of a1 (14m 51s):Bicycle wheel by the goal wheel. And we have a, there's a bunch of spokes there. There's like talking about what's your purpose in life and where are you going? And there's talking about your legacy and then there's talking about consumption. And then there's talking about instant gratification that we give to kids in the form of gifts. And there's talking about that a lot, the pressures that we put on ourselves on Christmas, I mean just suffice it to say, I have been on the sometimes what feels like the circular journey of, you know, from, I mean, you know, when, when I first had kids, when we first had kids, it was really exciting to give the gifts.1 (15m 33s):It was exciting to create a Christmas that I remember from my childhood, the excitement of coming downstairs3 (15m 40s):And magic magic1 (15m 43s):1000%. And, and that sustained me for the period of time that the kids are literally happy to get whatever the minute it turned. And it turned when the oldest one was not that old. Yeah. I'm going to say like seven. Yeah. Yeah. And he, they had a bunch of presents and they opened everything up. And then he said, is that it? Yeah. And I went, oh damn, we're doing this wrong. We're doing it completely wrong. And so we've had a few Christmases and this is one of them where we're not doing gifts, which is to say, there will be stockings, you know, and maybe one little thing, but we're not doing the multiple presents under the trees.1 (16m 31s):We didn't do multiple Eddy presents for Hanukkah because of exactly what you said, toys is five to 15 minutes of joy for a lifetime, literally a lifetime of trash that I then, then it becomes my job to get rid of organized, find a space for a blood body block. And now the kids are pretty much almost all of them at an age where they don't want any of those things anymore. They want money, they want electronics. They want, so we have the way that we save money for them is not in the, for like Christmas, but that's actually a really good idea.1 (17m 12s):And something going to bring up with my husband and says,3 (17m 15s):Yeah, I mean, for those of us, I think it's a great idea. And also it's so much easier, not easy. Well, I don't know for miles and I don't have kids, so it's not in our face all the time. And we moved away from them. It's a different story when you're in under the same roof with being with children, with beings, small beings that, you know, are you so I, I am very aware that we have like the we're the aunt and uncle to different, it's a different deal. But like we just thought, wait a minute.1 (17m 44s):Yeah. And the thing that you're really after when you give a gift or at least I think is the joy that it brings to the person and, and that's great, but like you're saying most of the time, it's a, it's a very fleeting. And also like you don't want to teach kids that this is the way to direct your joy, right? Like from getting things, right. I'm not saying that that's, that's what you're definitely doing. If you give Christmas present, I'm not saying that. But you know, we just live in this very like consumer oriented culture,3 (18m 17s):The kid's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's a system, it's a systemic situation, but it hit me last. When I really, when I really was like, okay, I want to do this differently. It was last Christmas. My youngest niece wanted and got it is not knocking anyone involved, but it was very clear to me that we, it was really stark about what was going on. She wanted a claw machine, a mini Kalama machine from an arcade that literally just had candy in it, candy bars. And you made this loudest noise you've ever heard, took 10 batteries, 10 big ass batteries.3 (19m 7s):And literally there's candy in it. That's killing us all the sugar and look, you know, whatever. That was the least of my worries. But I was like, this is wait, what?1 (19m 16s):That's interesting. That has me3 (19m 20s):Wait. And it was a, probably a really expensive machine. It's not cheap, but that's what she wanted. My sister got it. And look, I'm not knocking anyone involved, but for me, I was like, it was so, so striking about what was going on. Cause it was so loud and obnoxious.1 (19m 39s):Let me ask you this. What do you remember getting for Christmas? Okay.3 (19m 42s):My favorite thing I ever got, this is so crazy in my life when I was a kid kid was okay. Two things I can tell the first gift that I like went Gaga, Google over was something, it was a makeup kit called fresh and fancy. And it had, it had perfumes. It had, and it was probably, you know, 9 99, 99 at Kmart. But like my sister and I each got one and it, what, what it was, was super fun, super adult, super smelled. So good. And I, there is a picture of me opening it up and in, in my I'm saying fresh and fancy.3 (20m 27s):And then I take the picture.1 (20m 30s):Do you have that picture accessible?3 (20m 33s):Yeah, I think so. I can send it, send it, send1 (20m 36s):It. Yeah.3 (20m 38s):I will send that and to fresh and fancy. Okay. That was number one. And then the second gift I remember as an adult getting that was really moving to was my mother who traveled all the time and who I really sort of labeled as a selfish, kind of a human at times gave my sister and I each a ticket, a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world because she had so many miles. But like the fact that she, she thought about us and the fact that her travel, which as a child brought so much grief to me because she was gone all the time that she was then turning it around and giving my sister and I each a plane ticket to anywhere was really moving to me and also was really abundant and felt like that's awesome.3 (21m 25s):You know, is that when you went to Columbia, that's when I went to Prague by myself for a week and a half, which was insane or two weeks, it was crazy, but1 (21m 34s):Oh yeah,3 (21m 37s):It was in, when I lived in LA, it was a long time ago. So, and I, I, I, it just, so I wish I had gone with somebody else. It was the most lonely, it was beautiful and Prague is crazy and, and fun, but I went alone, but that's like really just indicative of where I was at in my LA life. So it doesn't, that's not shocking to me. What about you? Like, what do you remember being like, oh my God,1 (22m 0s):I got to speak and spell. I, I really, I really coveted speak and spell. And for those of you who don't know a speak and spell is just, would be an app now. And it wouldn't be nearly as fun. This was a self-contained. It was like a really thick version, like a three inch thick version, maybe note or two of an iPad. And it was orange and it had a handle built into the top and it would say a word in a computerized voice, like structure, and then you'd have to spell it. And if you got it right, this is the, so this tells you a lot about my psychology, the high, I got that little sound telling me I spelled something, right.1 (22m 43s):I just felt like I could, I was vanquishing Rome. It was, I felt so powerful that I got a bike one year. That was amazing. And I kind of lip gloss that smelled like root beer.3 (22m 57s):Oh, I know that those1 (22m 59s):Are the things that just like off the top of my head. I remember just falling in love with, and, and being, you know, unequivocally joyful, happy with moments. And that's the thing that you're always after, like for yourself or the people that you love, you want to impart this joy. That's what I was going to get you. Like, you want to impart this joy and then there's this tacit thing about like, you better feel joy from this. At least that's what I find myself, you know, evaluate whether or not this person is feeling joy from it, because that's what I want. I want to give them joy of this present. And then I feel sad if it doesn't work out.3 (23m 38s):Yeah. And, and, and, and, and it, it usually doesn't work out like that only because people aren't mind readers people don't, everyone's different. And Joy's so, so personal. And so, so specific to that person. And it's like, it's just such a setup, but it's also, we keep trying and I'm going to still, I still love giving presents, but I now am like, oh, okay. Can't be for me, like the mass quantity of just, yeah. Crap. Like, it really hit me too. Like I bought one year, my niece was really into Shopkins.3 (24m 19s):Remember, oh yeah. I bought like $200 worth of Shopkins for her.1 (24m 23s): lasted for that year. And then she makes, never picked up shots.3 (24m 29s):Not even the whole year, maybe a month.1 (24m 32s):That's the thing, man. They get, and they get, and I, I, I was going to say, this is especially true for girls, but I'm, I'm going to re revise that because the boys did it too. When they love that thing, it's all they care about. It's their whole world. You know, my daughter said to me all, I, the only thing I want you to get me is just tons and tons of puppets. What's a3 (24m 58s):Pocket.1 (24m 59s):A pocket is a PLA silicone flat toy that has these half hemisphere, a half a hemisphere that you put, like you, it's a satisfying sensation to push it in. And then you flip it over and push it the other way. Shit.3 (25m 24s):What's in that what's in the pocket, like a little creatures,1 (25m 28s):Zero, nothing. It's in the shape of whatever you want it to be in the shape of it's a fidget choice. Essentially. I3 (25m 36s):Understand. It's like an ASMR founding,1 (25m 39s):Totally tile. It doesn't make a sound. It's all about it being tactile. Yeah. And, and, you know, go to the stores and they're everywhere. Puppets. You'll see if you start looking for now, you'll see that they're everywhere. And so that's what she wants. And a half of me completely wants to indulge that wish. And the other half of me says, I'll be throwing these all away in six months. And then I'll feel like an asshole because I spent a bunch of money on something that I knew was a fool's errand.3 (26m 10s):Yeah, I'm right. It's like so hard because they believe they really want it.1 (26m 18s):They really, it's3 (26m 18s):Not, it's not a joke. It's not a, it's not a joke. Like that's their jam.1 (26m 24s):Yeah. So this year we're going skiing for Christmas. That's3 (26m 27s):Our part of New Hampshire.1 (26m 29s):We're going to Vermont. And I think I've told everybody on the podcast I do. That's right.3 (26m 35s):You'd like the ski lodge into, right?1 (26m 38s):Yes ma'am. So I go and I get everybody off in the morning to their little activities and it's as, you know, a huge amount of work, then the gear and the schlepping. So I help everybody get to that. And I get back to my little cozy spot and read and write and just hang out that sound. So I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And honestly, that's the thing that people I I'm banking on. Cause this will be the third time we've done a trip instead of presence. And, and these are trips that we still talk about. So I think it is a good investment experiences are a better investment than3 (27m 14s):I absolutely agree. And I feel like that's the trust starting for these kids. It's like, we're gifting them with the experience of maybe like a down payment on a fricking home, a car to get them from here to there a education, like a real thing, like a thing that you need to like live your life versus a fricking fake Cuban Linx chain. I didn't even know what Cuban links were. I didn't know what was happening.1 (27m 42s):I don't know what that3 (27m 42s):Is. What is Cuban links? I oh, those1 (27m 45s):Big, Easy.3 (27m 51s):And it's just ugly. And it's also $6,006,000. What did Jackie about? Oh anyway,1 (27m 59s):I, you, you just did yourself, such a favor. I mean, you did them mostly a favor, but you did yourself such a favor because also the other thing is, you know, I have experienced, I go out shopping and I'm immediately overwhelmed and I'm trying, okay, now this one, I got this,3 (28m 14s):I asked who gets one and did, is it equal? And like,1 (28m 18s):Oh my God, it's just, it's like a, it's a hell3 (28m 33s):I thought we might start out with, I got some feedback on the, okay. So my, on the podcast from, so my, my parents' best friends, Nancy and Dave, they like helped raise me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've really become like second parents. And, you know, they, they hadn't heard the podcast. So they were like, send us an episode. And I said, okay. And you know, it's always tricky because they really know me. They really know my parents. They really know my life in some ways in my childhood. So I was like, well, so I sent them an episode. I sent them the does small ocean Hooga knocker episode because Dave is a therapist and he works with people with addictions.3 (29m 13s):And I thought, oh, that might be interesting. And so the feedback is so interesting. The feedback I got was I'll read it on air because it's good. It's a podcast. Podcasts was good. Felt like a reunion. Sounds like David was deep into self-destruction before he recovered a talented guy was hoping to hear more from you. But that's for selfish reasons. I like how you identified the macro themes in your Roundup at the end. And then I wrote, thank you so much. We're we Gina and I are always aware that like, like, you know, we don't want it just to be us and we don't want to just to be guests.3 (29m 54s):So we're trying to find a mix. So his feedback it's so funny. He liked, he likes to give feedback. You know, if you and Gina are willing to talk about what life experiences brought you to embrace the arts and try and make a decent living, I liked the way you have reconstructed your family life so that you don't have to be an emotional casualty. There's a lot to talk about how you both learn to think from, from psychodynamic and systems orientation. I don't even know what that means. I'm not smart enough. The best stories are the stuff of good soap operas, good screenwriting can teach people how to better understand and navigate within their interpersonal worlds.3 (30m 36s):I'd like to hear another one, if you don't mind the feedback. So Loves our inter you know, he's, he's a therapist, obviously. So he loves that. But it was interesting. I mean, I seriously don't know what half of that means, but like,1 (30m 54s):No, he just means no, he just means like the thing, I mean here, here's this big secret that we've never told anybody, this podcast is not really about theaters. Right. And so what you saying is the, the, the psychodynamic for, you know, background that we have influences and informs our conversation so that we, we think about things dynamic and that's it. And that would be interesting to a therapist. Therapist thinks about things dynamically too. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it there's so much it's, so there's always so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Like, and I, well, the thing I, this ties into the thing that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, which is that when we first started recording a podcast, it was not, I survived theater school.1 (31m 44s):We were calling undeniable, right.3 (31m 46s):That's right.1 (31m 47s):And we had about eight, you know, hour long conversations that were about this concept of being undeniable. So I kind of wanted to clarify for people who may not know why is our company called undeniable? Why is not the website? Because when you told the great story about it, we didn't never air that till we did. So, no, because it was, it was for,3 (32m 20s):We never found and they tried to send to you and then it got1 (32m 23s):No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying like, we recorded those and then we changed our mind about what the3 (32m 29s):Right. Yes. Okay. Yes. That makes sense. Oh, should we tell the story? Yeah. So it's so funny because I wonder if he ever heard this, if he would even remember, you know, it's so funny, like who remembers telling people what? All right. So the story is this. So I, well, first to say that, like you and I were talking about like, what, what is the thing of life? Like, what is again, where I'm at now, which is what are we going after, right. Like, what is the quality of life that I'm going after that you're going after that we're going after as a team. Okay. So it reminded me of this story of I did a solo show and it was called why not me love cancer and Jack White and the woman who was, and it was a solo show basically about cancer and about working for Nick cage and all kinds of things.3 (33m 19s):Just like I surprised theater school is not about theater. School is not really about Jack White, my show, you know, it's whatever. So, okay. So I'm doing this show. And my, the director of my show is this woman named Alison lion. And she happens to be good friends with the comedian and storyteller and actor, Jeff Garlin who I, I didn't know from Adam, like I wasn't a curb, your enthusiasm fan. So I didn't know, but I knew he of him. And I knew he's like a famous guy. Right. So she said, you know, how would you feel about Jeff? Garlin coming to see a dress rehearsal and giving notes. And I was like, oh, sure. Literally being like, oh, a famous person wants to come see my show.3 (34m 0s):That's cool. You know, not like, what can I glean from this artist? You know, just cause that's, that's where my mind went. I would've have been the same. I mean, I just am not mature enough for whatever, so, okay. So I do the, it was, it, it was real nerve and it was an empty house, but him, he and Alison were sitting up there at stage 7 73 on Belmont in Chicago. And so I did the show and whatever, and it was an okay show. I mean, I look, I don't know, but afterwards, if such an interesting story afterwards, he was giving notes to Alison, but not me. And I thought, well, that's weird, but he was really there for her.3 (34m 42s):That was her mentor kind of, you know, her comedy mentor. But then I came out of the house into the house and met and met Jeff and he was lovely. And he said, well, do you want notes? Or somehow it came up like, do I want actor notes? And I was like, of course, which is shocking to me because I never want notes. Right. And I always say, I would love feedback. And by feedback, I mean, compliments, like, that's my . I did say of course, because that's what you say when a fancy person wants to give you notes. And he gave me some great notes, which was stopped swearing so much. And he compared me to Robin Williams, which was amazing.3 (35m 22s):He said, because I could tell he called him by his first name. I do believe he was like, when Robin would swear a lot, I would know that he was, he was, was dying on stage, was off. Yeah. And I was like, that's fascinating or pushing, like I push when I'm swearing. Okay. Great note. I've I've kept that note and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. So then, then I have to tell us, because it's so interesting because I would have done the same thing. So then after he gave notes, which I kind of blacked out some of them, cause it was a lot, but then he, Alison, we're going to go out to eat at clerks on Belmont, but they didn't invite me. Right. And I was like, oh, and then I was in the bathroom and Alison called and she's like, I'm an idiot.3 (36m 5s):I didn't invite you. Do you want to come? And I was like, oh, of course. Yeah. She, and I think what happens is when you're around famous people, you forget, you1 (36m 13s):Lose your census. It's3 (36m 15s):Very weird. It's a weird thing. I think that's what happened for, so we went to Clark's on Belmont and he, we taught he's so what is he? He's he's a generous. No, he's, he's a big personality. So he takes over rooms. Right? So at clerks, he's the center of the show and it is not anything he's doing. It's just, that's how some people are like,1 (36m 42s):He's not trying to lay low. Right. He's3 (36m 45s):Not trying to lay low. And he also loves people I think, and loves human interaction. I mean, from what I know, as we got into this conversation and somehow, and he said, and he said to me, we were talking about acting and we were talking and he said, I'm going to make a movie and you're going to be in it one day. And I said, that's fantastic. I love that. That's great. That sounds great. And then we talked about other stuff and then he said, you know what you are? And I said, what? And he said, you are undeniable. And I was like, what is even happening? And I was like, okay, thanks. Great. He's like, no, no, no. You're undeniable. Like that show is undeniable.3 (37m 26s):And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, well, it just means that like eat exists in its truest form unapologetically. And I'm totally paraphrasing here, of course. But it was like, it exists in its truest form. It's just is you don't have to like it. You don't have to like, you, you don't have to like what you're saying, but there is a quality that cannot be taken away about the show. It's more than unique. It's more than that. It's undeniable. You don't have to like it. You don't have to dislike it, but it, it exists on its own. And it cannot be basically cannot be fucked with in, in, in that way, you know? And I was like, whoa, that is awesome. And that I feel like is what I'm going for in my life.1 (38m 10s):Yeah. And, and when you told the story before you also said that, that he said, you know, be undeniable continue to be undeniable because that, that is ultimately the only thing that lasts in terms of, you know, the industry or whatever. And as long as you're holding true to, you know, your own undeniable truth or whatever, you can, you know, you can't go wrong. It may not mean that you, whatever, get fame and fortune, but, but you'll be doing, you'll be on the right track.3 (38m 40s):You won't be led astray by your undeniable city. Like you, you won't be, it won't be, you won't go in the wrong direction for too long. If you use an deniability as your north star kind of a thing. And it really, and he, he later told Alison, you know, she's, you know, he kept reiterating like she's undeniable, she's undeniable. And he, and Alison had told me, and I, of course, because, you know, I just figure people say that about everybody analysis and no, he does not do that. And also he stands by his word. So you will one day be in a movie with Jeff Garlin and I was like, cool, great. That's fine. But I it's interesting looking back on the story, it's like, I wish everyone is so scared.3 (39m 24s):Like I wish that I would have used those quotes in my press, but Alison didn't want to use them because she felt she was already asking too. We're all, we always feel like we're asking too much. So she felt that she, she was asking too much just having him come to the show and having him give notes was enough and having him. And I remember at the time I had a musician as part of the show, you know, his name is Philip Michael scales. He's amazing. And he was like, we should totally use Garland's quotes to get more people to come to the show and both Alison and I, it's interesting, both Alex and I were like, oh no, no, no, no, like he's done enough.3 (40m 4s):You know, it's just so1 (40m 5s):Like, yeah. Like, and all I'll do to Alison I would've made probably the same choice, but you know, it's like, what are we so afraid of? What skin is it off of his nose? If you say that he said something that he said, you know what I mean? It's not like his reputation is living or dying on your show. It's just,3 (40m 25s):I mean, yeah. I would have done the same thing too. And I1 (40m 30s):That's the mentality that we've talked about so much on here, and it's definitely true for Hollywood entertainment, whatever, but it may also just be true for life that we kind of inherently have this idea that there's a finite pie. Sure. And you know, it's kind of like the people who think that only whatever 7,000 people are going to heaven, you know, what kind of cockamamie thing is that like you believe in heaven, you believe that all of this is God's plan and that people have been alive for millions of years and yet only 7,000 feet. Right. That to me is like a perfect evidence of the way in which we make ourselves and our, and the possibility so much smaller than they need to be.1 (41m 15s):Yes. So you think there's a finite amount of pie and you say, well, I can't take my one, one thousandths of a sliver, you know, that's Jeff Garlin because then there won't be any Jeff Garlin left. Like that's just simply not how it works. It's just simply, you know, anyway, the reason I said generous is because, I mean, you know, whatever, he has a friendship with her, but, but offering the feedback to you and then offering this truth about identifying your and deniability, which I'm guessing was one is one of the things that you carry with you. Okay.3 (41m 53s):Yeah. I mean, I do think, I do think that he's, that that was very generous of him. Like, and, and I do think that he and I do carry it with me and, and it obviously had an effect on me because I tell the story and because, you know, we, that you and I started a whole company around the idea of being undeniable, but like, and yeah, it, it really was like an affirmation, right. To just fucking pick a side already, like, like take a stand, like do something like th th th the gold boldly in one direction, because this sort of, this sort of, wishy-washy trying to please everybody, it, it, it not only does it not, it's not, it's a totally unpleasant, it actually doesn't work for the thing that you think you want.3 (42m 45s):Like, if you want notoriety power, fame, fortune, you have to pick a side at some point. Okay. But if you also want to feel good and be led, like we're saying by your north star, you could, you could use your, and deniability as a north star to eventually mean that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly to get to a place where you really feel like you're doing right by yourself. If you follow your undeniable, whatever that means to you. So, yeah, he changed my life. Like that changed my life. I mean, the show did the sh you know, looking back on the show, I spent so much money. I would say, like, to be, if I'm completely honest, it was like a $25,000 investment I made over from 2012 to 2015 or whatever.3 (43m 31s):And, and I didn't bring in one dime, you know, I didn't make, make a dime, but it was, I would've done things differently, but I still I'm glad I did it. And, and that's one of the reasons stories. And one of the reasons I'm glad I did it was because I learned that lesson about being undeniable from Jeff Garlin. And yeah,1 (43m 55s):I don't think he went to theater school, but he needs to come on the podcast, you know, tell him that and, and, and hear more about his, his thoughts about, and deniability. So, so that you have shared that story with me, which really even moved me. I mean, it's, it's affected me. And then we linked it to this crooked, let's say path that we made, where we were pursuing this creative, creative career. And then we couldn't pursue it because we needed to make money. And we thought it would be okay to do else. And ultimately wasn't. And so the creative urge or whatever is undeniable in us.1 (44m 39s):And we're basically having to listen to it instead of, you know, pushing it away. And, and we also have a belief that many, many, many people are in that exact same position at this age in life, they were pursuing something. It wasn't financially viable. They had to do something else. And that when, what we're talking to a lot of people about these days is I think a lot of people who come on the podcast are reckoning with that question. Whether it be when we ask them to come on or while we're having the conversation or in the time after.1 (45m 21s):And we hear a variety of things from, from, you know, genuine like bridge equipment is a good example of somebody who went and did something else. And I think she found her thing. Yeah. I feel like therapy. She found the right thing for her. Yeah.3 (45m 37s):And she's now taking classes again, though. Acting classes, remember? Cause she wrote us.1 (45m 43s):Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, all right. So maybe, so maybe so maybe everybody, but what, we also talked to, a lot of people who I feel are trying to convince themselves, us, that they have moved on and you know, what, if that's true for you, I don't want to take that away from anybody, but it's hard for me to believe that's true for as many people as say it is true because if you, right, if you just, if you have, if you're born with this desire to express, and then you don't exp and you don't do it, it doesn't go away. And,3 (46m 19s):And here's the kicker too, is like the secret Willie, we can let everybody in a secret that you and I, because of our childhoods. And then on top of the childhood, the training that we received as actors, and then on top of that, the training we received as clinicians, we are able, here's the secret. We can see things in you that you may not be able to see in yourself or that you think you're hiding. Like that is just the secret.1 (46m 45s):And, and I'll say as a person who is fully does this all the time, nobody's hiding anything. I'm sorry to inform you. Nobody, you whoever's walking around. They're saying nobody knows that I, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yes, they do. I mean, they may not say it to you. They may not even have that thought in the front of their mind to everybody does truly know everything. And you're only kidding yourself, right? To, to hide behind, you know, dishonesty,3 (47m 20s):You're kidding yourself that you were hiding it and you're kidding yourself that other people can't see it. And you're kidding yourself that it's working for to hide it. But it's easier said than done to not hide it. I'm not saying coming out, coming clean about your truth is easy at all. But I just want to say like, cause people always ask like, and I, I run up against this a lot in Hollywood of like, how could you tell that? Like, so-and-so really, didn't like this script. I'm like, dude, body language. Blahbity blah, blah. And they're like, I didn't get that.3 (48m 0s):I'm like, dude, you just have to like, I have training. But also you just have to really, I always say this, but like you have to be sort of a neglected child that then decided that people pleasing was the way to freedom. Then learn that that is actually not true. But then use those skills to actually be like an emotional detective for other people. It's a whole process, but you could do it if you spent enough time, but I can tell like I can, I even at coworking, like I'm going to soundproof booth. So no one could hear me. But like I, I spent five minutes with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they hate themselves. They hate themselves a passion they're pretending not to, but they hate themselves.3 (48m 42s):And that is unfortunate because I know they have redeeming qualities. I haven't talked to them for more than five minutes. So I don't know what that is. And I don't want to talk to them for more than five minutes because I'm not their therapist or friend, but I get it. I get it. It is a super power that I think people who really have trauma and then have chosen to work through the trauma. It's a super power that we have that we can, and it's also can be a burden, like any superpower to really see what the fuck is going on with people and call it out if need be. But we don't always call it out because it's not our job.3 (49m 23s):And you know, that is something we run into on this podcast too. It's like, there are times on the podcast where I want to be like, you know, this is just full transparency where I want to be like, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. Totally terrible. You, you, you hate blahbity blah, but you don't want to tell us you hate blabbity, blah. And I understand that because I've been in the same boat and I still am in the same boat, but just know that if you come on this podcast that it kind of behooves you to just tell the truth because what? Yeah. We all see it anyway. Right, right. We just do. We all see it anyway. Yeah. In your voice, we don't even have to look at your face.3 (50m 3s):Here's the other thing about human experience? So people think, I think because it's a podcast and it's not, we don't air the video that like, they can also hide shit. Well, your voice and the, and the PA I mean, I'm giving away all the secrets here, but there are no real secrets. Like the pauses in between watching the next person we have come on is gonna be like, okay, anyway. So I feel really bad about everything in my life. And I put the pauses, the pauses in between questions and answers. It's all part of the deal. And so I just encourage people. Like, I want you to come on this podcast and feel like you can, that you you're able to be undeniable and FYI on deniability does not mean everything is great about you.3 (50m 48s):Right? Like it doesn't mean, it just means that you're telling the truth about who you are. Good, bad, ugly, weird.1 (50m 56s):Yeah. You, you could be an undeniable asshole. There's no, it's a, it doesn't have a necessarily positive connotation, but you know, if you are an asshole and you're, well, that's not a good example. If you are, if you hate yourself, let's say that's a good example. If you hate yourself, you know, you're never going to get to a place where you don't hate yourself by pretending that you don't hate yourself. You have to start with the idea that, okay, here's what I'm up against right now. Hearn's out. I really hate myself. And you know, and I'm going to have to get real about that before I can, because how could you begin to interrogate a problem that you haven't named at all? That's like, that's like, you know, getting, I don't know that to the end of a math problem without having like what the3 (51m 43s):She's learning a new language without studying one minute of the language in your life. It doesn't, it's not possible. I mean, you might get one word. Right. But by luck. But1 (51m 55s):Yeah. And my thing, and I think this is your thing too in life is just encouraging people and the reason, and I understand why people want to lie to themselves about it because it's painful or because you don't want to be a person who hates yourself. You don't want to be a person who feels unfulfilled by career traces. I get that. But, but it's like that, that you are unfulfilled or you are that you just haven't done the work of accepting.3 (52m 23s):Right. And I, and I, I definitely feel like for me, the turning point, literally in my life had to, had to do with, when I had a physical problem with my heart, where I was like, oh, this is what is happening. I haven't taken care of my body for whatever reason. Not because I'm a bad person, but because I've always shit going on and all these issues and hereditary, but I haven't done the work to, to look at this. And so now it's coming, it's now it's, it's, it's a problem. And, and, and when you're laying in the hospitals hooked up to machines and you and people are telling you, it's a problem that are trained specifically in this problem.3 (53m 7s):And you finally are faced with, oh, either I'm going to believe this or not, and acknowledge it or not. And I just was like, okay, I acknowledge it. I need to lose weight. I need to move my body and I need to eat less shitty foods and okay. That's it. It's in my face. It's in my face. It's in my face. I'm the1 (53m 25s):Hospital. Yeah. My, my wish for it to be something other than it isn't has, it helped me to have it be something other than it isn't. But my, my courage, if, if you can summon the courage to face it, then it might actually be different. So the other thing that you were talking about before was legacy, and that is, that has been a theme in my life recently too, because, you know, I realized after my sister died, like it's all over for her. I, you know how a lot of times when people die, then people will go on their Facebook account and like, write these messages to them.1 (54m 16s):You know, I miss you, blah, blah, blah. No, nobody did that on my sister's Facebook page. Nobody and no, nobody and her kids, you know, who are too young, really to use Facebook there that's because it's an old person's thing, but they have Facebook accounts and they had each written something about their mom when she died. And periodically, I checked back in to see like, what the comments are at for first of all, I don't know, 95% of the people who were making the comments, cause I haven't been in their lives, but it really ended like a few, you know, a few days after she died, it ended.1 (54m 58s):And I just thought, wow, man, there's just no trace of this first. God, I don't like that. There's yeah. It's it's really unsettling. And so recently we came in to possession of unpublished manuscript that Aaron's grandfather wrote on which sirens grandfather, his dad's dad. Okay. Aaron's grandfather was a, you know, hardcore Chicago in, he was a tool and die maker. He worked in one of these factories where whenever there was factories in Chicago and he retired when he was 70, 70 or 75 and went back and went to college and he was the oldest graduate from Roosevelt university where I teach by the way weird.1 (55m 58s):Yeah. And he was a writer and a poet and he wrote a book. Now, dear listeners, I regret to inform you. It's not a great book. You know, he could have used an editor. I'm sure. And, but it doesn't matter. The point is we receive this cream and a half of paper that's wrapped up in like a grocery bag and bound with string and it hasn't been touched3 (56m 34s):How'd you get it? How'd you get it?1 (56m 37s):His mom had it. And she sent him a bunch of stuff in that, and that was in there. So we opened it up and, and I thought to myself, okay, this is fascinating because one of the things that I think compels people to write is a desire to leave some kind of an imprint. And I'm curious how other people think or don't think or feel, or don't feel about their legacy. I mean, I guess people do it in other ways you get really rich and you name a building after yourself or by the way, they took the Sackler name off the mat. Finally they took the Sackler name off the met. Yes. And oh God.1 (57m 18s):Yes. That's a whole other thing. Watch dope. Sick with John who can aprons really good. Yeah. Anyway, people do use philanthropy. I mean, it kind of seems like, unless you're in the arts or rich, how do you have a legacy? What's your, what is,3 (57m 33s):This is a great freaking question. Like this is the question that I really been thinking about in my brain. And I, I think I have the answer for me, but I'm not exactly sure. So, all right. So I love to teach, but I love to teach a very specific population. It's a population that is underrepresented in colleges. So I I'm trying to narrow down like what I want to do with my life basically. And I think I want, I know I want to be a writer, but I was like, okay. But my realtor says I have to make 80 to a hundred thousand dollars if I want a house in California.3 (58m 17s):Okay. And I'm tired of sitting around, waiting for Hollywood to discover me. Okay. Fine. And us. So what do I do? Okay, fine. So then I've been teaching right at Roosevelt and other places and I love it. I love the 1819 year olds. Okay. Fine. I love teaching acting. I don't know. I feel like I don't really know shit about acting, but I know I do when it's mixed with psychology. Does that make sense? Okay.1 (58m 44s):A hundred percent then the other3 (58m 45s):Day I was like, and then I was like, okay, but I don't want to teach at a fancy conservatory. Like I don't, that's just, I just don't. So I was like, all right. All right. All right. So then someone sent me a listing to teach a community college, making a $90,000 a year. Community colleges paid better than a lot of colleges. And so I'm applying to teach first year actors at a community college in Glendale. And I don't know, and I don't know, and I actually think it's going to make my writing. And I think it's going to make me hustle in a different way. I don't know if I'll get the job, but I gotta say my legacy might be, cause I thought, okay.3 (59m 30s):At first I thought my legacy was going to be, and we could track it with the podcast. Right. Like I thought my legacy was going to be famous actor even though like, I don't know if that's, that is a legacy like Brando and you know, that's a legacy. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, that'll be my legacy. I'll be fancy, famous lady. Okay, fine. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, my legacy is going to be that I'm a very sort of famous PR prolific addictions counselor, like at a social service agency. Yeah. That's going to be my legacy, but that's what I thought, like, that's my mark. That's where I'm going to leave my mark. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to be again, a famous actor, but maybe a solo artist. Right.3 (1h 0m 10s):And, and then, and then a screenwriter and I'll get really famous as a television writer, which still could happen. But I was like, I'm not sure that is the flavor of legacy that we're talking. I'm talking about here in terms of service, right. Service. What I want is to teach, I could teach 18, 19 year olds tangible skills that they can use then and move on in their lives and then teach their kids. Like, like that seems more in alignment with what I'm talking about in terms of legacy than just fancy screenwriter.3 (1h 0m 50s):That makes a lot of money. So, yeah.1 (1h 0m 53s):Yeah, because actually I was just having this thought yesterday, if I was ever given an award that was related in any way to theater, the first person I would think is my junior high acting teacher and teachers truly do leave some of the biggest, like good and bad. Some of the biggest legacies. I remember every single teacher I've ever had. Yeah. And w I mean, I mostly remember the ones who were really good or really bad, but they, I can think of five people off the top of my head who should be canonized as saints, because really Mrs. McDaniels, you were a prima ballerina who ended up teaching math in junior high.1 (1h 1m 37s):And you know what she did, she knew that I had just a, I was having a really hard time in junior high. And she invited me to eat lunch in her classroom every day, because I think she was at a Mexican, she didn't eat. And so she could go over the math with me cause I was having a hard time getting it. And I was just having a hard time. Sure. In general, this is seventh grade. And she provided all under the guise of teaching me math. Of course she gave me mentorship. She gave me attention. She showed me love.1 (1h 2m 19s):Right. Like what's3 (1h 2m 20s):What more could you ask for legacy I'm looking for? I'm not, I decided like, especially during COVID times, I've really been thinking, I think a lot of us have about like, what is obviously important, but also what is lasting and what is, and I thought, yeah. Okay. So, so I don't have a desire to like go into the classroom and teach, you know, I don't wanna teach psychology. I don't want to teach, but I was like maybe. And the thing that like the community colleges in California in Southern California, like I believe Pasadena city college and Glendale community college are two of the best community colleges in the country. So I'm like, okay.3 (1h 3m 0s):And it's cheap to go there. And it's a bunch of different kinds of learners and it's not just white kids that are like, I'm fucking going to be the next, I don't know whoever it's like kids that actually want to learn. And I, I mean, look, there's going to be some real assholes in there. I know it. But like I thought, oh, okay. Like also I really, really need a house with a yard. And I don't know how, I don't want to do it by, by getting an office job that I'm gonna die at. And I, and I, and then try to write on top of that.3 (1h 3m 45s):So like, I really need more space. And we were looking at houses and this all really was, was sparked by talking to a realtor, a really great realtor who also was like a very therapeutic and his approach. And he was like, listen, do you want a house in California? Yes. Okay. Do you want a two bedroom, two bath? Yes. This is how much money you each need to bring in a year. And this is how much your down payment is going to be act accordingly. He just told me that like, it's not,1 (1h 4m 16s):It's not a mystery. It's not an unknowable path. It's just like, no, no, no.3 (1h 4m 22s):It's very clear. And he was very loving, but he was also like, you, you piecemealing the piecemealing, your salary together is not going to work for this. And I was like, and I, I needed him to say that too, to know that like, it's time for me to bring in a decent amount of money. Now, if it comes, if it, if, if, if somehow it comes from your mind getting a television show or our documentary taking off. Great. But like, in the meantime, I need to feel like I am, I am not just piecemealing my shit together.1 (1h 5m 8s):Right. Because in addition to all the other things we've mentioned, you have a lot other needs that are undeniable and it is much your responsibility to meet those needs your, your need to have, you know, your own space. You need to have address, you know, that's as important to listen to as anything else.3 (1h 5m 27s):I had no idea. Like I just thought it's interesting. I, I thought that I did not have those needs. Like I thought, who cares where you live literally. I mean, I've moved 15 times. So it's like, who cares if you live in a one bedroom with two people and a dog, I care. I care a lot now I really care. And it's really, really important to me to be out. So having an outside space,1 (1h 5m 55s):And what I hear in this for you is a shift from what does it look like to other people to, what does it feel like inside of me? And it was always more important,3 (1h 6m 8s):More important. And it's also super interesting. And I think we run up against this all the time. People think that they're like, oh, you're not going to be an actor anymore. Like you're not going to audition anymore. And I'm like, I don't think so. It's not like it's like I had the other night. I had the experience. So I get off the train right at eight o'clock the day before I got an audition from my agent for self-tape for a show in Chicago, that's a procedural show, you know, and that everyone auditions for in Chicago. And I got a self-tape quick turnaround. I had to get off and I chose to, I got off the train, dropped my stuff, picked up.3 (1h 6m 50s):My friend came to coworking and was up til midnight filming this scene. It's not a good scene. I'm not good. I'm not good in the scene because I don't, I'm, I'm not, I was having trouble memorizing because it's late at night. And then, and then I turned to my friend and I just said, you know, and, and I'm not paid, obviously we're not paid for the audition. If I book it, I have to go to Chicago on my own dime, stay in a hotel on my own, or place my own plane fare. I hate to fly to do this thing. That's going to terrorize me on set for a day to make $900.3 (1h 7m 32s):What the fuck am I doing? So I turned to my friend and I just said, who was nice enough to stay up with me till midnight, taping this in the fucking coworking space. I turned to her and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she said, okay. And she said, okay. I mean, she doesn't give a shit. She's a writer. She's not an actor. She doesn't, but she's like, okay. And I was like, yeah, this is no, no, no, it's not. That is not my legacy.1 (1h 8m 0s):Right.3 (1h 8m 1s):So it's very clear. So now I'm going to, I'm just, I'm not, I'm having calling my agents1 (1h 8m 8s):And you can't know until, you know, I mean, like that reality couldn't hit you until it did. I'm like, no, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, part of life is figuring out what it's not, and as much as it is figuring out what it is. Yeah. So4 (1h 8m 34s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.2 (36s):It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,1 (41s):But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.2 (46s):Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And1 (1m 0s):Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?2 (1m 5s):The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,1 (1m 14s):It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.2 (1m 18s):Yeah. What's the for you.1 (1m 19s):Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.2 (1m 56s):Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,1 (1m 60s):When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?2 (2m 32s):Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,1 (2m 42s):Yeah,2 (2m 43s):It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.1 (2m 55s):It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.1 (3m 35s):But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?1 (4m 18s):I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?1 (5m 1s):What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?1 (5m 45s):And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.1 (6m 29s):The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,2 (6m 37s):Wow. Oh,1 (6m 38s):Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.1 (7m 19s):It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,2 (7m 28s):That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.2 (8m 10s):I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.1 (8m 32s):Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.1 (9m 15s):Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.1 (9m 57s):I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.1 (10m 40s):And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?2 (11m 4s):Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.1 (11m 10s):What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?2 (11m 17s):Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.2 (12m 0s):And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.2 (12m 43s):Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.2 (13m 26s):Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,1 (13m 32s):No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like2 (14m 12s):You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.1 (14m 16s):There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.1 (15m 2s):And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.2 (15m 20s):Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.2 (16m 1s):I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether1 (16m 10s):I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.1 (16m 54s):And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.1 (17m 34s):So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this2 (17m 42s):And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.1 (17m 52s):You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.1 (18m 32s):You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.2 (19m 0s):Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.2 (19m 43s):And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.2 (20m 24s):The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.2 (21m 5s):There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that1 (21m 23s):More, or no, you just left it at that.2 (21m 29s):Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So1 (21m 46s):Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.2 (21m 54s):Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,1 (21m 60s):Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.1 (22m 53s):And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take2 (23m 17s):Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think1 (23m 20s):Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.2 (23m 25s):Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.1 (23m 41s):So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.1 (24m 33s):Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. that's the truth.2 (24m 42s):Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.1 (25m 3s):Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean2 (25m 44s):That they're not1 (25m 45s):At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.2 (26m 17s):If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.1 (26m 22s):It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.2 (26m 47s):Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,1 (27m 7s):Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,2 (27m 36s):Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another1 (27m 46s):It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.2 (28m 7s):Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.1 (28m 11s):I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago2 (28m 33s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.0 (29m 1s):Well,2 (29m 22s):Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads1 (29m 33s):And theater. I started out in biology.2 (29m 37s):Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get4 (29m 41s):My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.2 (30m 5s):Much more fun than actually being4 (30m 7s):A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,2 (30m 13s):But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.4 (30m 21s):Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.4 (31m 9s):So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?4 (31m 55s):We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.4 (32m 48s):She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.2 (33m 29s):That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or4 (33m 46s):Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.5 (34m 23s):That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.4 (34m 48s):Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.4 (35m 30s):And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.4 (36m 10s):So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,2 (36m 38s):Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?4 (36m 59s):Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,5 (37m 23s):Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old4 (37m 27s):Were you? I was 19.5 (37m 30s):Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?4 (37m 33s):I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,5 (37m 55s):I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.4 (38m 29s):Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.2 (38m 60s):Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or4 (39m 9s):So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.4 (39m 49s):So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great5 (40m 13s):Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how4 (40m 33s):Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.2 (41m 13s):Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help4 (41m 30s):You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.2 (41m 52s):It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious4 (42m 2s):Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but5 (42m 25s):Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.5 (43m 8s):And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?4 (43m 16s):I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.4 (43m 58s):And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So2 (44m 8s):That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're4 (44m 11s):Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.2 (44m 14s):So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?4 (44m 29s):It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.4 (45m 9s):And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.4 (45m 54s):So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.4 (46m 37s):And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.4 (47m 19s):And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.5 (47m 35s):It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.4 (48m 19s):Yeah. Yeah. It's5 (48m 22s):That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.4 (48m 29s):I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.4 (49m 12s):You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.4 (50m 0s):And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?5 (50m 15s):And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,4 (50m 20s):I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not5 (50m 53s):That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and4 (51m 29s):It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch2 (51m 40s):Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.4 (51m 45s):Okay. Not in my experience.2 (51m 49s):So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.4 (51m 59s):I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.4 (52m 42s):And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.5 (53m 11s):What a relief.4 (53m 12s):Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was5 (53m 25s):So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical4 (53m 30s):Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?5 (53m 37s):My God.2 (53m 38s):Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.2 (54m 18s):You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.4 (54m 29s):Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and5 (54m 50s):You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?4 (55m 8s):Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.4 (55m 48s):Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.4 (56m 28s):I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.4 (57m 17s):They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.4 (58m 3s):They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.4 (58m 43s):And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.4 (59m 24s):So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then5 (59m 31s):How did you do it? Did you get help?4 (59m 34s):Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,5 (1h 0m 8s):Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.5 (1h 0m 51s):Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?4 (1h 0m 60s):So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.4 (1h 1m 48s):It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.4 (1h 2m 33s):Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.4 (1h 3m 16s):Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,2 (1h 3m 40s):Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?4 (1h 4m 8s):I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.4 (1h 4m 49s):So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.2 (1h 5m 11s):God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.2 (1h 5m 53s):No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.5 (1h 5m 57s):And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.5 (1h 6m 41s):Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?4 (1h 6m 56s):Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.4 (1h 7m 37s):But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.4 (1h 8m 37s):And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.4 (1h 9m 16s):You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.4 (1h 9m 58s):And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.2 (1h 10m 3s):So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.2 (1h 10m 55s):And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been4 (1h 11m 21s):True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.4 (1h 12m 10s):They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.4 (1h 12m 58s):And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.4 (1h 13m 46s):And he fell, right. You know, they fall
Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University, Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington, Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it. So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean? Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion, Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually, Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down? Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything. Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him and then he ended up not finishing the program. So I was actually the first lighting master's lighting student since they had left the Goodman. Speaker 1 (3m 19s): Great. Speaker 2 (3m 20s): Yeah. And I had, so I'd been working in Houston doing an internship and Kevin Rigdon, who was the, at the time the resident designer at Steppenwolf had come down and did a show production of our town, which ultimately became a very important part of my life, my adult life in my own career. And so he came down and did our town with Jose Cantero directing. There was this huge thing. And I thought Kevin was great. I thought he was funny. And I loved his work and I was really interested in it. And he was adjunct at the theater school. And he actually told me not to, he was like, don't come I'm adjuncts. And they're just starting this master's program. You kind of want to find a place that's that's has more stuff going on. And then when I decided to apply to grad school the next year, for sure, I was looking at different places and somebody gave me the advice that you should really look at the people who design the team, the design work of the people that you're going to study with, because that's what they're going to teach you. Right. Great, Speaker 1 (4m 17s): Great advice. Speaker 2 (4m 18s): It was, it was really great advice. And the other was to look at the market, right? Like look for a market that you would want to be in. Like, you can get an amazing degree in Idaho. There's actually really good programs there, but the market's not there. And I'll tell ya. I did not realize until I was a college professor. This is so like blind of like the blindness to your privilege. Right. I did not understand the benefits I had in Chicago from going to school in Chicago until I watched my students graduating into it. That's when I realized what I could do for them. And I realized what my professors did for me. Speaker 1 (4m 54s): So interesting. I mean, I think, I think we don't, we don't ever, I don't know anyone that's really hipped. Maybe kids nowadays are young adults are really hip to it, but like, yeah. I mean, I didn't think of thinking of like, okay, well what, what is the sort of the place where I'm landing and who are my connections there? But I am learning now at 46 in Los Angeles that the people that I'm really connected to here in the industry are all from Chicago. Mostly a lot of them are from the theater school. It's crazy. Speaker 2 (5m 25s): It's so interesting. I, it's funny. I've been listening to your podcasts and what I love is like, I feel like it's the best Facebook ever. It's like, so, cause I'm like, oh, listen to all these hour long interviews with people, all due respect to someone who might forgotten existed. Right. You know, like I tumbled down the whole like conversation about the religion. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot all about that. I knew I knew those people. Right. It's just not my life anymore. Right. Speaker 1 (5m 49s): I mean, I I'm. Yeah. I'm also shocked. Like we have people on that, like remember us that I have no recollection of having with. And I think I always talked it up to excessive drinking and dirt back in my day. But like, I think it's just like, that's not our life anymore. Right. We're in a different time, different lifetimes. Speaker 2 (6m 10s): I took it. There's like three levels of people there's like from school. It's like the people that I still know and have to remind myself, I went to school with like, that's the connection. I there's the people that I, that I have no idea what happened to, so I love when they're on your podcast and then there's the people who are famous. So I think that I know what they're doing. Like I have a feeling, I feel like I know what Judy is up to, but I don't know what she's up to. I just know, Speaker 1 (6m 33s): Right. That she works all the time. Then we went to school with her. Right, right. It's so funny. It's, it's a such a wild thing. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to go, Speaker 2 (6m 42s): I'm going to go to grad school. And I looked at Chicago, I looked at DePaul because I really liked Kevin. And then I also looked, I was looking really heavily at Carnegie Mellon and, and he went to, I went to one of those. It's funny. I listen to you guys talk about it with the actors. But I went to one of those, like Roundup audition, interview things in Houston. And I interviewed with both schools at the same time. And Carnegie Mellon was like, well, we've been teaching this class for 20 years. It's a great class. And we've been doing this other thing for 20 years and it's awesome. And I was like, oh my God, you're so boring. And the program is actually massive and huge and revitalized now. But I think at that moment in time, it was just not, they were had a lot of faculty had been there. And then I went to the DePaul one and I talked to John Bridges. I was like, I offer you Chicago. Like I offer you the energy of John Bridges and Chicago. And I was like, oh, this is so much more interesting to me. Yeah. You know? And then I got lucky because what I didn't know is that John Colbert is like, I call him the Clark Kent of lighting design, because he seems super mild-mannered. And he's like Superman, that guy is a genius And a master teacher. And so the fact that I got to study with him for three years and the part of it was him creating curriculum that he felt I needed, even when, and I have these moments with my students now where I'm like, this is what you need to do. And they're like, I don't think that's what I think I would do better. I think this is what I need to study. And John would be like, yeah, you need that other thing. You know, I actually, years after school, a couple of years later, I applied for a, there was a, it's funny, it's funded by the NDA. So you can't call it a, it can't be a grant or fellowship. It just has to be like a program that you're on. But it was one where the theater communications group got money from the NDA and young, like early career designers and directors to observe, assist other artists because you can't make anything. If it's the NDA. Right. It's like the rules that came out of all this stuff in the nineties. Right. And John called me up and was like, you need to apply for that. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally applied for that. I was thinking next year. Right. Like you need to apply this year. And I was like, well, yeah, but see, here's the reason and this and that thing. And he was like this year and I was like, but really I was like, you know, this next year. And I was like, this year, this year I'll do it this year. And then I got it. Speaker 1 (9m 4s): Was it amazing? It Speaker 2 (9m 5s): Was, it's an interesting thing. It was amazing in some ways. And in some ways it like slows your career down because you have to do six months worth of work within two years and you for the money and you get paid as you go, but you don't get to make anything. So it can like become a thing where you're like getting to know these amazing people and working with these amazing people. But you also, can't Speaker 1 (9m 28s): Interesting Speaker 2 (9m 29s): And make it, you know, like it slows down like what you can do as your own artist. I will say though, that, as I'm saying these words, even I'm thinking about the people that I worked with and how they function in my life and how important they'd been, like how important some of them still are Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Still in your life. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9m 45s): They gave me an extension on it as well, because that was also the time that I, I was the associate designer on the first production of top dog underdog. And that was a show that they were actually TCG was trying to get somebody in that room. And they were being like, well, we don't really want somebody to observe us. And I got offered to work on it, but I had worked with the whole team before, so they wouldn't let me do it, but they let me extend it. So they were pretty generous about like, yeah, I'll be making things happen. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And I got into DePaul and so I came to DePaul, I came up and visited and it was, Speaker 1 (10m 16s): And you, you, did you work with, was there, were you working with someone, a lighting designer at DePaul named Keith? Speaker 2 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when somebody talks about him, I don't know if it was you or Gina talking about him. We'll talk about seeing the scout, the Macbeth that we did that I did with Stacy Cabalero who I, who was my best friend from grad school. Oh yeah. When I think about grad school, like Shawna Flannigan and I were roommates for years after, but, but Stacy and I were super close. We did. So we did like so many of our shows together there and he was talking, it was it, you that he was telling that he commented on the costume. Gina was sitting next to him, but she was talking about it. She was like, and Keith param. And he was like, he was looking at it. He was like, oh my God. And I was like, I literally was listening to the podcast like, oh God, did he say something about my lights? What did he say? What did he say? Then? Then it was about Stacy. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. One of my close friends still. Speaker 1 (11m 14s): So yeah, he was the first person that made me really interested in lighting. And he, when we closed the show, the yellow boat together, he gave me a print of his drawing of the lighting, like, oh wow. With lighting. And I still got it framed. And it was, I was like, oh, well this kind, because I think personally that as actors, we're, we, we have this thing of like, our ego is like crossed all the time. So then we, we have, we have an inflated sense of ego really that we have to build. And we think that acting is the most important thing. And it was the first time it, my land that's garbage. And the first thing to person to really say, to show me like, oh my gosh, look, this is all part of a huge deal. Like I am not the huge deal that lighting is, everything has its place. And then we come together, but I was like, oh, this is, this is an art that really ties the whole show together. Like really? And it's like unsung magic. And I think a lot of actors anyway, just think that the lights up here and that nobody is behind them being the artist, creating that at least young actors, Speaker 2 (12m 30s): Young ones. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think you're right about that in school, it's often Speaker 1 (12m 35s): Lighting for you. Like, what is it, what was it about that? Speaker 2 (12m 39s): You know, it's funny, my mother at one point was like having this big guilt thing that she had never encouraged me into it when I was younger. But like all of the signs did, like, unless you knew this was a thing, it didn't make sense. I was, I loved theater. My grandmother studied theater in New York in the thirties and she taught college. Yeah. She'd studied with a bunch of amazing people. She didn't work professionally, but, but she would take us to theater. Right. So it was a huge influence for my mother then for me. And I loved being an audience member. I never wanted to be on stage. And I haven't been a couple of times. And also now that I'm like, in my fifties, it's so much easier. Like I'm much more willing to jump off the right off the cliff and try whatever. Cause why not? What is it gonna embarrass me right now, please, please. If I didn't embarrass myself to death in my twenties, I think we're good now. You're good. So, yeah, but I, I, I just always like things that related. So I, like, I was interested in photography at one point, but I loved reading. I loved going to the theater. I have this, I was terrible in high school. It trig. I like, oh, I got like, I barely got through trigonometry class. And the second semester of the math track I was on was like analytical or spacial geometry. And it was like, I was a savant. I was like, that's what that 3d grid looks like. I can see that thing in space and I could answer, am I my teacher? And I were both like, what is up? How do I know this really have a good sense of space? And so if you look at the combo of all those things, they all really go together into lighting design. If you, if you know that thing. So when I went to undergrad, I'm in San Antonio at this small college Trinity university, super liberal artsy, sort of the opposite of your, your, what do we call them? We call academic classes and academics. I feel like we did, but they definitely, yeah. Academics. I really was. I had a lot of intense like philosophy classes and religion classes, all super helpful for the career that I have. But I also, my first semester took a intro to theater class and I loved the lighting. And then the second semester we were, I had to register dead last, like first year, dead last, you can't get anything. And a friend of mine that was in my end theater class was like, well, I'm going to, she was going to be a high school drama teacher, her name's Emily Goodpasture. And she decided that she was going to end. So Gilbert and good pasture registering last. She was like, I'm taking this sledding class. Cause I know I have to take all of the design classes and the acting classes for my future career as a drama teacher. And I think she take this learning class with me and I did. And then throughout college I would do other things, but I kept coming back to lighting. I just, I love the magic of the way light reveals form. I love looking at tons of different kinds of light bulbs. You know, my friend wants me to come to become Tik TOK famous and support us by telling people how to light their homes. Speaker 1 (15m 32s): Well, here's the thing that I, I actually, when you just said that, I have to say like, I was like, oh, I wonder what she thinks about filters and add tic-tac and the way people use light and could do you look at photos and videos and things and say, oh, that would be so much better if you just lit it like this. Are you able to do do that? Speaker 2 (15m 53s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely, yeah. Most things in my life revolve around, you know, I always laugh cause I still go in theaters and look up at the lights and people are like, oh, I saw you looking at the lights. And I'm like, do you look at the actors? Of course, I look at the lights, I'm trying to figure out like the craft of what they did or you know, or what the equipment that they got to work with was, and yeah, but I can't, even though I could probably find another career with lighting that is so much more lucrative and I'm sure that that is true, right? The best part of my job for me still is that everyday when I go to work in theater, actors tell stories in front of me on stage live. And that is my favorite thing. I love going to plays. I love seeing performance and I love it live. So the fact that I get to be connected to that in some way and another character in that for me is really awesome. Speaker 1 (16m 39s): That's fantastic. And I I've never thought about it that way, that like, I mean, obviously I've thought about that a little, that the lighting is another character, but again, it's like, there are, there is a human and maybe a team of humans behind that character and that it, that you enjoy hearing the live stories being told. And that's why the theater versus, you know, film and TV, right? Like it's not, I mean, I guess you could still, it could be live on set, but like, you wouldn't be like the designer of a show. I don't even know how it works in television and film. Like the lighting people. Is there a lighting designer behind film and TV? Speaker 2 (17m 21s): There are no. And because there's so many more people on a film, I, and or television, there's more people encompass the single jobs that we do in theater, the DP it'd be the DP and the gray and then the interest and then editing is also a part of what we do. So, so all of those things sort of come together in that way. It's funny, David Swayze, do you remember Dan Swayze? He, so he's in film now and he's doing super well. Yeah. He's an art director and film and, and we have not kept up. We keep up actually better than I do with a lot of people, but it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, even with the pandemic, it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, he was talking one time about what he loved about doing television or film, he specifically film. And the thing that he loves about it is that it's, it's so immediate and you can make changes. So like, you can say like, oh, we need to, we, instead of doing it this way, we think this would look better and you can actively do that thing, which in theater set designers can't do that. But the rest of us can, I was like, you're talking about lightening design. I can make the change in the instant. You know, sometimes I have to say, I have to hang a light for tomorrow, but sometimes I can do like, hang on. My moving light will do that for us. Right. This second, you know? So I get to, I get to, it's funny though, we were like super technical or technological. And then all of a sudden it was like projections and sound, which were, you know, a slide projector and a yes. And you know, MiniDisc jumped us and they can craft in the room and we still can't craft in the room in the same way that they can, which I'm actually kind of grateful for. I like that. We get to say like, we're going to think on that. We're gonna let us Speaker 1 (18m 60s): Oh, wait. And think on that. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Cause I, I, yeah, I liked the idea too of you're you're like a problem solver. Oh Speaker 2 (19m 13s): Yes. Right. Speaker 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. I love problem solvers. I think that they're really great to have in a room because I think it teaches everybody that like there are mysteries to be solved in the theater. And there are people that are trained to solve them that aren't me and they, and that we can work together. But problem solvers, we need the problem-solvers in, in rooms, in the theater. Like it's fantastic. Speaker 2 (19m 46s): But you know, it's interesting. We solve different problems, problems. Like I was years ago, we have this event on the last day of the semester, second semester at Columbia called manifest, which is this massive arts festival. It spills onto the streets. We have puppet show puppet, parades down the street. And we have, it's really fantastic. Photography has like gallery exhibits, super fun. This school is crazy. And I love it. And years ago it poured down rain and they had had this thing that they were going to do. This is pretty so long ago that I think it was 2009, actually it poured down rain. And they'd had this event that they were going to do called manna text. And they were going to, people could submit their phone numbers and they would text and be like, go to this stage. And you'll, if you're the 10th person there you'll get a thing. And texting was still like, we, it, wasn't certainly not the, the way we lived our lives. Right, Speaker 1 (20m 39s): Right. Speaker 2 (20m 41s): Yes. It poured down. And as soon as it pours, like we had an outdoor stage and I always, I, I produced it for the department. I thank God. I don't have to anymore. But I, I had, I always kept the stage free inside so that if anything happened, we could move it in. So we moved everything in and we didn't have lights up in the theater. And I, so I walked downstairs and I started hanging some lights and doing some things and I was working with, oh, this is funny. I was working with Kendra Thulin oh yeah. He was working with me on that because Kendra and I worked together again, somebody, I almost forget I went to school with. And so I started hanging the lights and everything and she's just staring, like she can't do it. And my kids walked in, my students walked in and I was like, okay, here's what I need you to do to finish this up, do this, do this, do this, hang that, get these gels. These from the sides, this from the front, I'll see you guys. They were like, great. And Kendra and I walked out to do something. And she was like, that was amazing. And I was like, it's what we know how to do. And then five hours later Manitex has fallen apart. They can't figure out what to do. And I'm standing there. I've got these two seasoned subscriptions to the department, which I'm pretty sure were free anyway, back then. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with these? And I turned there, we're doing a musical theater thing. And I turned to a couple of minutes, you'll theater students. And I was like, get these to an audience member. Somehow they went on stage and made this hilarious, adorable competition. That was like a trivia thing, like trivia about musical theater. Right. And they gave them to the winner. And I was like, we all, I, my students would have turned to the human next to them and been like, do you have these, you know, that's why we're all together. That's why Columbia administration is constantly like, you're you have too many majors in your department. It's so unwieldy. And it's like, because it takes a lot of people to create an entire world. Speaker 1 (22m 26s): It really does. That is really true. And everybody solves different problems. Like nobody that does it does. It does take a bunch of people. That's really interesting. And then when you graduated, what did you do? Like, were you like, I mean, really your career kind of took off. I mean, you're co you're pretty fancy lighting cider. So how did you, did you just like, love it and people loved you and you started getting jobs or like how did it work? Speaker 2 (22m 55s): Yeah. There was a couple of stages in it. I, you know, it's funny. I did the big funk and what's hilarious about that to me is that when we did it, I was like, where are we? We are in the front end of someone's apartment. It is bizarre. These people live here in the back of this place and they're letting us do a play in the front and like flash forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I am friends with those people. Amazing. I did some moment in conversation. I was like, that was your place that I did that weird shit show with the weird lights in the cans. Like, so I started doing storefront and I S I had started assisting at Steppenwolf while I was at school. So I had, I, at the time that I was in school, I had a foot in both bootcamps. And so it is, I definitely, yeah, I definitely was splitting my time. And so I started doing more assisting it's definite wall. And in the fall, he'll never hear this the fall, right after graduation, I assisted somebody who sort of well known to be difficult business of lighting side. And for whatever reason, we absolutely hit it off. And he is like my brother today. And so I started traveling with him. I started working on projects all over with him and because he was difficult, theater companies would bring me to projects that they wouldn't necessarily bring an assistant on normally, because he's really, he's like the best in the business, but they knew I could handle him. And they knew that I could handle him by saying, I need you to leave the theater right now. And I'll take care of things while you sit her down. And so we, I would go to, I went to New York with him starting in 1998. I assisted actually my second Broadway assisting job was with him. My first one was from Steppenwolf. So I simultaneously was with Steppenwolf and him. And so my assistant career was like really amping up. And I was in these important rooms like Suzan-Lori parks and George Wolfrey top dog underdog with at the time the first production was Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright. And then those staff replaced Jeffrey or repost on. And so I was getting to do a lot of those really awesome things. And simultaneously I was doing storefront, right. And, and honing my skills and building my skills and knowing how, like I could watch the people that assisted make these massive shows with so much stuff. And I would think about those ideas. It's exactly what they tell you to do in school. But yeah. And then I would go back to the storefront with 17 lights and some candles, and I could make something that was really interesting because I had a much stronger sense of how equipment worked. You know, Keith always says that his graduate school was assisting per the years that he did. And he particularly assisted this amazing designer named Jim Ingles. And he's like, that was my grad school because I learned how to use our tools and then how to pull back from them. Speaker 1 (25m 35s): And how did you get, I think for people listening, they're going to be, well, how, how did she get to assist at step it, well, how did she get in the room at Steppenwolf? Speaker 2 (25m 44s): It was that guy, Kevin, the one that was my, you know, he taught us, but he, I, he knew I came up here and I reached out and I was like, I really, I want to have, you know, I, I want to work with you. I want to learn from you. And he, it's funny because now he's in Houston. I met him, but he is, he was great. And my second year, because the guy I came in with dropped the program, my second and third year, I was all alone. Like my classes were by myself. And so what John would often do was put me in a class with someone else. So that, like, there was a, for some reason, the third year BFA lighting class in my second year only had one wedding student. So we paired for the class in the class time, we had somebody to sort of like riff on and talk to, and our levels were different. But a lot of the projects that we did, like we spent one full quarter just in the light lab, which we usually, most semester, most years we did just making projects. And like, here's a song like the song by next week, here's a musical theater song. You you're lighting it as if it's musical theater, somebody on there, like something has to represent the chorus, visually something has to represent, how do you, how do you actually change the song as if it's a stage? And we have like little blocks of wood and like little people and things that we would put up and make these vignettes. And so she and I were just sort of at different levels on that, but Kevin was the teacher and it was, I actually had a one-on-one with him. And he said at the beginning of the year, he was like, I just want your, your resume is going to look good when you finish this class. And that was crazily enough. It was the 20th anniversary of Stephan wall. So I was the second assistant on very child. Gosh, that to Gary Sinise director, I worked on every man that Frank Lottie directed, I worked on the Libertine, how much was in. I did, I was an assistant second assistant on all of those shows. And then by the fourth show of that season, I ended up the first assistant who, who stayed with him for a while, but was sort of grooming me to be the next step. And that's how that sort of works sometimes is like we, our assistants move up and become our full peers. And then we train somebody else up in that way. And I, by the fourth show, I was actually getting paid while I was doing it for credit and stuff at school. So I think in those days I wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it today. They would be like, what, what? Speaker 1 (27m 56s): Right. But then you were like, yeah. Speaker 2 (27m 58s): So they didn't know. Right. Speaker 1 (28m 0s): They weren't keeping track of that is so cool. Speaker 2 (28m 3s): So I got to do that. Speaker 1 (28m 4s): Yeah. And then, and then did you, did you, what was the journey like to, did you live in New York? Like, did you live in New York, ever full time? Speaker 2 (28m 13s): Not full time. I spent a lot of time crashing on David Swayze's spare, like his studio floor. I did a lot of that for many years and, and other friends, new Yorkers are particularly skilled in the art of letting you stay with them. And so now, I mean, I joke that I'm the Heather Gilbert school for wayward or Heather Gilbert home for wayward Chicagoans, because I there's so many people who move out of Chicago and come back to do a show and I let them, I let them live in my spare room. My friend, Samantha, who's this brilliant costume designer. I mean, for like two and a half years, we were like, she was like my, my roommate. She came and went, I have somebody coming on the Saturday after Thanksgiving while she does a show, you know? Cause I feel like I'm giving back for all those times that I crashed in New York. So I did a fair amount of assisting and stuff there. I've only, I guess I've only designed about three times there actually. One of them was pretty significant. So yes. Speaker 1 (29m 9s): Talk about that. Let's talk about that. How did that come about? What, what, yeah. That journey of life. Speaker 2 (29m 17s): Yeah. My other job in grad school was I was bartender. I, yeah. I used to bartend at a place called bar San Miguel up on Clark street. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a non-equity bar. And I started bartending there after, I guess, had our second year. It's funny during that huge heat wave of 95, I went there for the first time with Chris Freeburg and Kate McKernan. Yes. Half a year later I was working there and, and Cromer used to come in there cause it was a theater bar and I met him there. And so our relationship started 26 years ago. Holy shit. Speaker 1 (29m 48s): As tender in a patron. Speaker 2 (29m 50s): Yeah. That's how we met. That's amazing. Yeah. He loves that. I think he loves it. That's part of our origin story because it's funny when we, when he tells it and writes it like in a letter of recommendation or whatever, and, and we didn't work together until 2003, but we've known each other. At one point we quit smoking at the same time. And at one point that was like the most significant thing. And then all of these things that we've done have happened since, but now I'm also still thinking that maybe the most significant thing that we ever did together was quit smoking. That's fantastic. Speaker 1 (30m 18s): It's very significant. And it also, you did it together and it's a real bonding experience when you quit. Something like that. Speaker 2 (30m 26s): Yeah. It was tough. It's been, it's been, it's been 19 years this year. Congratulations. So we started then, and that was the moment also that like I did a show with him finally, and we did this miracle on 34th street that we all were super in need of money at Christmas time. And he wrote this adaptation and it started Tracy Letts, which we think is like the funniest thing in the world now. And so we did that show and then when I started, and then I started teaching shortly thereafter and I started, I did, and I went to LSU for two years in Baton Rouge. And when I came back because I loved teaching students, they're the best thing in the world. Higher education can make you want to pull your hair out. And state schools are often really like that if you're in the arts. So it was a struggle, but I came back here to Columbia, which I had only vaguely known of when we were in school. And that's, I didn't know that everybody who got cut came here until I was teaching here. And then it was funny because when I would, I don't remember when the cuts system stopped, but whatever point it did was after I started here, because you would be doing like the summer sort of advising with incoming students, you do your, your couple of sessions in the summer and kids would come in and their credits would be this really weird number. And I was like, I don't understand why that's not three credits, but it was like two points, 1.3 threes and 2.3 twos. And it was sort of like thirds, but not even HOAs. And I, and I found out that was, that was the sign of somebody who was cut from the theater school because it was the theater school classes that were those year long things, trying to get them into semesters. Right, right. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that's what happened to everybody who quit. And so, so, but David talkier and so we, we start teaching a collaboration class together, all really. I didn't know, that's cool for directors and designers. And so then we were going to do a show here at school together, but he, and we started the process and we were like, live, we got to live what we teach them. We got to, we got it. We got to collaborate like that. And we had to pull out of the show because he took adding machine to New York instead. And then he came home from adding machine. And that's when he had been talking about our town that he was going to do with the hypocrites, which was, I worked a lot with the artistic director of the hypocrites I had. I had a long relationship. I, I mean, he's still my friend, he's just second grader, John grainy, Sean and I, Sean was simultaneously, the two of them were sort of like my biggest income and my income through them. And so I, so, but I wasn't a part of the hypocrites. I was eventually, I was not at that point. Right. And he, he kept talking to the show, but he had to ask the resonance designer, but the resident designer who's my sweet friend now said no. And they brought me on to our town and you know, it's sort of like, the rest is history. Like we, David and I have a long history at that point and we have a, we had a friendship, you know, but we now, you know, we had like the let's let's, you know, talk on the phone and watch Dexter in the middle of the night friendship a little bit before that. But we now have done, I think I, I counted when we opened bug last week and I think we've talked 16 shows together and, and some of them have been really life-changing for both of us. So yeah, Speaker 1 (33m 37s): That is fantastic. And I feel like if you find a collaborator that just I'm recently have, have started working with someone that I just, I work with Gina, and then I work with other people, but like when you find someone like that, where you, you just, it just works out. Like it just works. There's something about it. The only thing you can think of is like, you know, it is some sort of, it almost feels like some kind of cosmic thing that comes together that you are able to do. Great. You can facilitate each other's great work without ending the relationship and having crazy, you know, fights and things that don't lead to total destruction. That's magic. Speaker 2 (34m 24s): Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting cause directors go, I think they probably do this to actors too. If they have a deep relationship more than anything, they go stuff's right there. Like they just stopped calling and you're like, come on. Right. And Cobra, at one point it was in New York and working with new people and our town had come to a close. Right. Which, cause that sort of kept us together for a long time. We did that show that was over over seven year period of time, all the venues. And so we, we had, you know, we'd, we'd, we'd had a connection and we had done other couple of other new shoot new shows within that time. Yeah, sure. It wasn't just our town. Right. And then we'd done our streetcar that was really successful. And the Sam Rockwell was in really isn't that crazy. I did a person who was Sam Rockwell, who was so lovely. I came up and was like, oh my God, the lighting is so beautiful. I was like, oh, so I will be heard in it. So how do you know? But, Speaker 1 (35m 17s): But he, but even to say it, you know, like what a sweetheart? Yeah. I was at a wedding with him cause he was in a movie with my boss and he was lovely, a lovely and like a pro like a real, Speaker 2 (35m 31s): So I get so excited for him now all the time. So, but we had healed David actually sort of like wasn't calling. And I was like, oh, are we not going to work together anymore? And it's funny because I think in the history of our lives, it will, it's actually a blip, but it felt like a long time. And I was like, okay, well I guess that's okay. Like relationships do shift and, and partnerships do add, nobody wants to somebody forever. Absolutely. But I was like, I actually, we are, I am, you know, I was not a Columbia kid. I'm like, I have a pocket in a thousand ways. But yeah, I did work. I do teach at Columbia and I am a Sheldon Patinkin person. I'm one of his people and Sheldon taught you, you see each other's shows. That is what we do for each other. Right. I was like, I'm going to still see your shows. Right. We have way too much of a history for our friendship to die because we're not, we're not doing right. Right. So I kept, I stayed around. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm going to come to me. I'm going to see your things. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go see the band's visit or I'm going to go also, I get to see the bands visit then come on. Right. Or I'm going to see your comeback, little Sheba with Derek in Boston because I love that. You know? And so when the time rolled around, I found out he was doing a production of next to normal at writers theater. And I loved that show and I had done a production of it that I kept texting him, being like, oh my God, I wish I were doing your production of this. Not that I didn't think that one was great, but it was much more of the sort of flash and trash version. Right. And I wanted to see David's version where there's like a dining room table and people around it. Right. You know? And I just, I was, so I texted him as soon as I heard from our friend Lilianne was like, I will do the show. And he woke up the next morning and he was like, he texted me back. I was like, it was kind of a non David text. I was like, this is very specific and kind, and I he's listing these things, but he was like, these are the, I woke up this morning and I saw your text. And I called Michael Halberstam, who was still the artistic director at the time. And so we have to hire Heather for the show and he said, okay, but we already hired Keith. And I was like, yeah, I fucking knew it. I knew I was going to be too late. I'm reading this text. And David's like, and I screwed up. And these are the reasons why, and he was like, writer's theaters are theater. It's our place. Which just so you know, he'd just done as many shows with Keith as he has with me. But he went through and he was like gave me their reasons that were really lovely. And then he said, Williamstown is going to reach out about a show, Adam rap's new play. And I was like, Williamstown really paid nothing. Why is that my constellation prize? I was totally annoyed. And then Williamston production was a struggle. Like we did this by the way, the play is the sound inside because we have not said the name of it if anybody's listening. And we, so we were, it was a struggle, you know, you have to do it very quickly. It's a big play for, for the, the lead actress in it and the actress in it. And, and it was a struggle for her. She, she definitely was acting out a little bit. Yeah, sure. And, and so, and you don't have much time and you're doing it with people who are, you know, these interns that I it's sort of famously a conversation in the industry right now about specifically how William sound carries those interns. So you're feeling guilty and also they don't know what they're doing as well. So there's a lot of pressure on that. Right. And I loved it. I loved that place so much. I read that play and I was like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's this beautiful play about what we do when we were in need in our loneliness. And it's just, it's ju it just hit me. I don't know how Adam Rapp, who's this like hyper alpha masculine male actually has that insight into, I think, because it's insight into humanity and thus, he can change it into he's like, well, women feel the same thing men do. We're right. We're not different creatures. Right. So, yeah. Wow. And then, and then the show moved to New York a year later to Broadway to studio 54, which my God, I got to crawl around in studio 54. It took me crawl over that building. I was like, she'll be everything. Where did they keep the drugs? I'm so cute. Right. Right. Yeah. And we, I went up into the there's a dome and I got to go up into the dome and look down into the space and see where they store all the lights. And I got the full tour one day. It's great. The crew is the best crew in the entire world. And we did this beautiful play and people were, you know, it's funny. I, I actually was just, I submitted an application last night at 11:58 PM for full professorship. Like that's the highest level of, of teaching here. Yeah. And when you get tenure, you have to apply for that. But then once you've got it, you actually don't have to apply for anything, a promotion past that. Yeah. So I finally had committed to doing it. And so it's funny, I've been thinking so much about my philosophy of lighting and the way I approach it. But one of the things is that there's that old saw the best line design is lighting. The can't be seen, which is just a load of crap anywhere like Eddie in any scenario, like just say like you and I can't see the light where we are right now. Right. We see it. We know it's there. What they really mean is if I change, if I break the rules of the reality that I set up for you and notice that that's bad lighting design. Right, right. It's like, it's, I was compared to like, weirdly as a lighting professor, I had Meisner in this paper that I was writing yesterday. This document is writing. Cause it's like, it's that idea of living truthfully in imaginary circumstances. It's the same thing for us. We're creating those circumstances and we're trying to make it so that the actors can live in truth and everything has it. And if the rules are light comes out of the floor. Right. And it changes when I take a step, as long as I, as long as we create those rules for the audience. Right. And, and train them, they know what it is and then they follow it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 6s): We'll go with you. It's consistency. It's authenticity. It's telling the truth in the moment and yeah. Staying true to what the vision is, whatever that vision is. But yeah, it also reminds me of like the good lighting is shouldn't be noticed or whatever is like, women should be seen and not heard. It's totally like fuck off. Speaker 2 (41m 28s): So I was talking about something about myself too, and I almost was talking about leadership and I almost said, you know, because I was called bossy as a child, and now we acknowledge that. That just meant I was a leader. Speaker 1 (41m 37s): Yeah. Right. It just meant that. And you know, it's interesting because my recollection of you in college was that you knew what the hell you were doing now. Granted, I mean, everyone has different, you know, I'm sure you didn't always know what you're doing. Cause you're a human being. But like my recollection of you is that you were like, I think maybe because also you were a grad student, right. So, but you definitely had vision. You were someone that I was like, oh, they know what they're doing and, and why they're doing it. So there was this thing about you that I really felt from the little, I knew that like you had motivation or like a, a direction and also a curiosity, but, and a, I just, I just think you were like very early on like a master of your craft, which meant that also masters in my view, like really study and take the shit seriously and have a lot of pride in their work. That was it. Like not a lot of people had a pro. I mean, I can speak for myself. Like it wasn't like, I, I felt like you could stand behind your work. I've always felt that like, when I read stuff about, about you or like when I follow your career, it's like you stand by your work. That's fucking phenomenal, you know? Speaker 2 (42m 55s): Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of that was also the training that we were getting in the, in the design program because we had, we had such good professors, particularly John, we, we, we had Franco Lovecchio was there for two years. Right. Who was the most wonderful, crazy human in the entire world. He would like, literally, like you'd be drawing in the studio and you'd be like drawing on something. And we all learned that you had to keep tracing paper over a culture, which is something called trace really. But we would, we would have trace taped to our drawing boards so that the minute he sat down, you could throw a trace over it. Or he would just start drawing all over you drawing. And, but he would like nudge you off your chair while he was like, fixing your time for you. And you'd tell him, be standing there watching him doing your work. And you were like, maybe, maybe not, maybe, maybe I'm in school. Maybe I want to learn how to do that. He was so funny though. So great. But then John Colbert has, is like really like taught us like the, that you have to be able to justify the work that you have to understand the rules of the piece that you and the rigor that goes behind that. And Nancy Beulah, who's the same. Who was just this amazing. She's the, she used to let, she used to let you do your project again, to get your grade up a little bit. And I would get like a B plus on something for her and I would do it again. And it wasn't even that I really needed. Like, I wasn't great. I wanted her to think I was working. Like I needed her to have that belief in Speaker 1 (44m 15s): G she, there was something. So she costumed me and said she just, she was so affirming. And also like you, there was something about she, she made me believe that she knew that I was going to be okay and that I was going to be a professional and that I could do it. Like there was, it was amazing. It was so much, there was like a strong confidence that she instilled in me as a costume person, which I, I just felt, again, she stood behind her work too. Like she was a bad-ass like, there was no like, ah, apologizing, there was no apologizing. And I feel like we just spent so much of our lives or at least I have apologizing that when I see someone like a career like yours, I'm like, oh, maybe this comes from not apologized. Like maybe not apologizing for, for us as women as in our work, you know, like this is badass work I'm doing and I'm going to continue to do it. I dunno. It's just a fierceness. Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Well, for me too, I feel like the thing that I'm proudest of in my, in my age and in my success is that I no longer feel like the pressure of having to be complete on the first day of tech. Like, I'm like, I'm going to put an incomplete, that thing up there, and I'm going to start to see how light is moving on these people and what that does. And I know it might not look good, but I'm not going to worry about that. It's going to be okay. You know, I'm going to be able to, I know I will make it look great. I know I can. I know that what I put up there for the first draft is going to be the right first draft, because I know what I'm doing and I know that it doesn't have to be complete. Right. And I'm fine with that. And like, David is really great for that because he has no expectations of that either. Speaker 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's like really the difference between being product oriented and process oriented, right? Yeah. As an artist. And like, for me as a writer, like writing for TV, my first draft, if it's not, it's, it's terrible. And it's exactly where it's supposed to be. But if I have expectations or get in my own way and feel self-conscious about it, the whole thing is it doesn't work. So it's like, this is a shitty first draft. And by shitty, I mean, wonderful. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (46m 32s): So wonderful first draft, right? It's never supposed to be the final thing. Totally. We were also taught at school that because we don't stick around for the product, right. We're not part of the product. We, I mean, we are, we're making a product, right. Because we're not ever, once the product goes, our AR is there, we're gone from it that we need to be really process-oriented. And that our process is what's going to get us hired aspect of working with us. Speaker 1 (46m 59s): I love that. And I feel like if we could, if we, I wish I would have learned that more and I'm not, I don't blame anyone for it. I just think it's the way the life is. But like, I'm, that's what I think I've spent my adult career as an artist becoming more process oriented and less product oriented and less and less judgy, right. About my and other people's process of, of like, it doesn't look the same. And so I think when you find a collaborator, which it sounds like David, what is for you that is also, and in the same sort of thought process in terms of how art is created, that's what works, because you're both sound like you're like no expectations for the first thing to be the thing. Like it changes it pivots, it moves, it's moving, it's breathing and moving. And I think that that's probably why your work together is so powerful and profound is that you both have this view life view right. Of art that works together really well. Right. So, and that sounds fine when I find those people. Those are the people I want to stay with and work with. Yeah. Speaker 2 (48m 7s): Yeah. And I think too, like one of the things getting back to sound inside and David, is that like, I, the thing that people often comment on is my use of darkness on stage that I actually commit fully to it, that I don't have a problem having actress speak from the dark. And I did the first time I ever had something that was really dark. I was like, oh God, like, you know, you're taught that, that can't be funny. Right. People actually laugh at things that here in the dark, it turns out. And so, but so being able to like be tiny and focused and just have a little bit of light, you know, and sound inside became that piece, which was like, we created the premise of the play is that this professor is telling the, talking to the audience and we don't really know what that's about. Like, I don't know. And I don't know the answer to that because I almost felt like knowing, like we don't want the audience to fully know. And I felt like if I know too much, then I, it may manifest. And so I never, even though Adam rap became, I tell him that he's the brother. I didn't get no offense to the brother. I did get, but I love Adam and I can ask him anything and talk to him about anything. But I have never asked him the truth of the play, which is, is it happening? Is it my meal? There's a character that we question is the character even real? Is she writing a book as she talks to the audience, this character, a Bella college professor, or is she, or there's a reference to a book at the end of the play that you like? Did she steal that book? And a lot of that was taken, there were a lot more concrete parts of the story when we did it Williamstown and they were taken out for the Broadway production to let the audience sort of float in their own uncertainty more. And so the idea is that Bella, this character who, who is this professor is actually the only fully fleshed out part of the play at the beginning. And that we slowly revealed the world as she creates it as she sort of illustrating it. And so that actually gave me the ability to have this production that was like using little amounts of light, a lot of darkness. Like I like, but also was in a way flashy, because we'd have like a big window on the side, on the wall of the sets. And then all of a sudden it would shift like instantly into a different time of day. And the shape of the window would change in the color of the window would change, but it was all very graphic. And then eventually within these like sequence of scenes in this office with this window, eventually the final one was this massive projection of a very real window. So, and so I got to work and I worked really closely with the production designer, who was the handsomest person in design. His name is Aaron Ryan. If you ever meet him, you're going to be like, I didn't know that designers looked like that. I thought only actors did. Wow. And he's the best dude in the land. I love him so much. Speaker 1 (50m 33s): So, so I guess yeah. Being mindful of your time, I just want to ask you if you, because we do have a lot of younger folks that listen to the show and that are interested in careers as designers, not just after, you know, now there's like such a, we're trying also to shine a light on designers. Cause it's awesome. Right. We don't, I mean, acting is not the only name of the game here. So what would you say if someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm interested in the theater. What does, what w what kind of person do I, it's kind of a hard question, but what kind of person do I need to be, to be a designer? I know if I'm a designer, Heather, Speaker 2 (51m 26s): I actually am really conscious of like the personality quirks of designers, because I watch it so much in my students. Right. And it's interesting because I am, I can't make a, I can not build a model. I cannot build a model. I, it was hated in school and it, but it's this really sort of detailed private work. And I'm a much, I'm super extroverted, which that doesn't mean all lighting designer extroverted, but like, I have to be able to work out here. Like I don't work here. I have to be able to work openly. I also have to work in public. Everybody is there when actors and designers have that rare thing in which actors and lighting designers, I should say, we, all of our work is done in front of other people. You cannot, like, you might have a smaller room and only a couple people at first, but like, it's still the same and we don't get to make it privately. And then somebody builds it and we go, oh, paint it that way. Or even like, listen to in our headphones. No, you have to be okay with that. You have to be really good with like a super high level of pressure. And you have to let it roll off of you. I worked, I love Sean Graney. This will not surprise anybody who knew Shawn grainy or losing his Shaun could be very difficult in a tech. I'm not the easiest dude, always in the world, but I love him to death. And there was an actor that we used to work with who just would Marvel. We worked with this person so many times and was a big part of the company. And with Marvel, it, me, because Sean would get tense and it'd be like really stressful and like pushing, pushing to get it done faster. And I would just let it all roll off. And it's because I have to be able to do that and know that this is my time. Right. Reclaiming my time. I was like, oh yeah, I do that all the time because I know that this is when I can do the thing. I also have to know when I can say, Hey, you know what? I can do this later. I can do this without people, or it's taking too long and it's slowing us down and it's, it's killing our process. It's not letting us all move forward as a group. And I'll deal with this thing later. Right. But I also know that I have to do it now. And that's the way this process works until somebody changes it, I'm going to do it in the room. And so I will take my time. I have to be able to work as quickly as I can in that. And I have to know that I have to deal with the pressures from other people. Speaker 1 (53m 27s): So it's got a little bit of, it's interesting. It's a it's human relationships that makes with time management mixed with reclaiming your time mixed with knowing when to, yeah. When you can let go and say, okay, I'm going to do, but like, I, I don't think people, at least I'll speak for myself. Younger people think that you need, well, the ones I encounter my students too, like, you need people skills as a designer. Oh, you need people skills. Like, just because you're not an actor doesn't mean you don't, you know, you got to work with people. And I think your, from your interview, it's really clear that like, there's all different kinds of people you're going to work with, and you're not going to get along with all of them, but you can also figure out a way, right. To still have the process, be one of where you get your work done, get rehired. If that's what you want and still be a kind human and work, you know, in the industry. And I think that's really interesting that you, the rolling off the back. Yeah. Because people in tech and in tech and intense situations get bonkers bomb, bonkers, bonkers Speaker 2 (54m 30s): Years ago, I was assisting on a production of the Scottish play in New York that George Wolf was directing that Angela Bassett and Alec Baldwin were starring in and the pressure and the pressure on it was super high. And then everybody who was a secondary person was like, we have Schreiber and Michael Hall and Zach brown. Speaker 1 (54m 48s): I mean, it was our secondary Speaker 2 (54m 50s): People. Cause they were babies that like Zach rabbit just finished school. Like let's start on it. And we, and the pressure was super high. And, and we were on the third floor of the building and the electric shop was in the basement. And my designer was like yelling at me and I would pass it on. I would pass that energy on. And the assistant lighting supervisor took me out for pizza and was like, you can't do that. And he was like, you have to be the wall. And if you can't be the wall, this might not be your job. He's like, you can still be a designer, but assisting might not be the way you got there. And this guy must've been, I mean, he was maybe my age. He was probably younger than me. His name was Todd greatest thing that ever happened to me. Yep. It changed me forever. I was like, you're right. That is my job. And actually, I'm very good at that. I am a cheerleader and I'm a person who cares about people and I have no problem. I mean, there will be times that I'm not trying to say, I'm never put pressure on the people around me. I get impatient too. I'm not a patient person, but, but I can, I can try to protect the people around me. And I, and I love my team that people who make the lighting thing happen, you know, I kept, I, we won the, I did this production bug with David right before the pandemic. And then we just did it again unless we could set them off. And we won the Jeff award for it. As I like to say, we won the Jeff award. Like my team won that award. I didn't do it by myself, but I actually took it into the first day of tech and we put it on the tech table for the second round. And I was like, everybody had my crew put a light on it and they would run the light up. And it was like, everybody may give me notes through the Jeff. The Jeff looks up notes for me. That's hilarious. I will speak to none of you. I will speak to Carrie Coon, Carrie Coon also want to Jeff that she may speak directly to me because what else do you do with an award? There's so weird there, Speaker 1 (56m 30s): Right there, weirdness. And they're weird and they're nice and they're in your effort. And it's the only way we have really, as human acknowledged this stuff, but in a, in a sort of ceremony kind of a way, but like, all right, well, I just thank you for talking Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Absolutely Speaker 1 (56m 47s): Pleasing. And I, I, you know, I just, I'm always left when I talk to someone like you I'm like left with this wish for young women to know that there are so many jobs and careers in the theater that you don't just have to be an actor or an actress or whatever you want to call yourself. There are so many things. And, and by, and for me also, it's like, oh my gosh, please find someone that's doing the thing you might want to do and ask them questions and see if you can get information, you know, like an informational interview, which is essentially what we do on this podcast is do an informational interview with people we went to school with and other people, but like get the information. So thank you for putting the information about your career and your journey out there for us. And we'll, we'll keep in touch and you'll get a copy to review before we air it. And, but just, thank you. Thank you so much. Speaker 2 (57m 45s): Totally. I'll send you guys some pictures I have to please. And, you know, they're printed. I actually had to go into a box and found Speaker 1 (57m 51s): Them. It's a whole thing. Speaker 2 (57m 53s): Yeah. Much like everybody else. I went through all of those during the pandemic. So I was trying to figure if I had one with me and Keith, cause that would be awesome. Speaker 1 (57m 60s): That would be fine. Speaker 2 (58m 3s): It's funny. I love telling people in the, in the lighting community that like I drove her, we've been friends for so long. I drove him home from college for Christmas, his first year of college, you know, and then, and now he's like, like he did his first runway show at studio 54. And then I did my first Broadway show in studio 54. And like, yeah, I really love getting to share all of that with him. And he's a true and great artist. And I just, S
Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be directLet Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD? Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program, Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yogaFULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.1 (55s):I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.1 (1m 47s):I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?1 (2m 28s):So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.1 (3m 8s):But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?2 (3m 36s):Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind1 (3m 39s):Of invest?2 (3m 40s):$7 and 50 cents.1 (3m 42s):What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then2 (3m 51s):If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,1 (3m 54s):Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.1 (4m 38s):And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise2 (5m 7s):You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,1 (5m 48s):Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.2 (6m 7s):Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like1 (6m 11s):Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,2 (6m 39s):No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.1 (7m 12s):It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I wanted to call him Dr. Craig. And he was like, no, that is not my name. And, and I was like, this guy is such a douche, but really he was setting a boundary saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not your friend. I'm actually not your dad. I'm not your, this isn't, we're working. We're doing serious work here. And it's either Craig or Dr. Pierce, but you can't. And at the time I was like 21 or something. I don't know what I was, but I thought what a douche, but now I'm like, oh, he actually was, was trying to help me.2 (8m 1s):Let's just get this out of the way. This is how I expect to be referred to this is how much I expect to be paid. My thing about coaches recently is I feel like everybody is doing this group delusion about, like, we can't go to therapy. So we have to say, I mean, we could pay more for a coach than we might for a therapist. We could be more revealing with a coach that we were therapists. It's just turned into the stigma of like, well, I don't want to go to therapy, but you know, I want to have a coach. And the problem with that is it's so wildly unregulated.1 (8m 34s):Yes,2 (8m 34s):Exactly. If anybody can call themselves a coach,1 (8m 37s):Right. And even this, this coach that I saw was like, yeah, it's wild Lynn regulated. And I understand that, you know, so, so there are some, you know, weird coaches and she's lovely and she's trying to make a living. The other thing that is so clear to me is everyone is trying to make a living. So there is right. Everyone's trying, I give them points for trying, like you she's trying to have a coaching business. So, so right. I don't fault her for it, but I did. I was like, so shocked that the language, I was like, oh, here we go. She's going to say the exact thing that this other coach said. So, duh, there's all kinds of like classes that for free structure that could the coaches taste.1 (9m 24s):Are you going to see her again? I mean, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no. I told her, I was like, you know, I'm just really not in a position to do coaching right now. And I'm not, I have a therapy. I have a new therapist. Let me just pay the therapist who told me what our fee was. So it was interesting. The other thing that I think was interesting is like I took, the reason I met this coach was I took a workshop on a free workshop on imposter syndrome, which is another like thing that people are really throwing around now is imposter syndrome. And self-sabotage those kinds of phrases. So I took an imposter syndrome workshop, lovely workshop. And then they said, you know, we're going to have a raffle and see who gets a free coaching session.1 (10m 5s):Well, we all, did. We all won the RAF. I mean,2 (10m 14s):Oh my God. I mean, is everything a play Like a performance piece in Los Angeles?1 (10m 24s):Yeah, it is. It is. And it's so, it's so funny, but like, so yeah, I was talking to my friend, I'm like, who went to the workshop? I'm like, oh, I won the I wasn't coaching says, she goes, so did I? And then I talked to someone else who I met when I networked with like soda. I was like,2 (10m 40s):I really respect how much it seems like people in LA are devoted to self-improvement. I really, really respect that in a way that I just feel like people out here aren't or if they are, they don't talk about it. Maybe it's what it is. But it does seem, it does seem like people in LA are either they're on a health kick or a mental health kick or they're, you know, getting sober or I just feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of1 (11m 5s):Types here.2 (11m 8s):And I appreciate the fact that everybody talks about that openly. Because if, if people are into that stuff around here, they don't talk about it. So I ended up feeling like, you know, I'm a weirdo.1 (11m 19s):I feel like it's like, like literally like old money versus new money. I swear to God it's like old, old paradigms versus new paradigms. And like, yeah, it's out in the open here, everyone's on some kick, but at the same time, it's also lessened because everybody's talking about it all the time and it becomes like the, like a F like a farce, like not sacred in any way. It's like,2 (11m 47s):Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of people who are doing the most, like in terms of self-help and they're just still the biggest, or they're just lying to themselves about the fact that they're, they feel like they're getting better, but they're really just haven't changed at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, living anywhere is a problem. Well, let me get out of here. I feel like, wow, you can really feel the Puritan vibe. I mean, it's yes. You really it's like, we don't talk about feelings. We, we talk about things on the surface. We don't reveal, you know, very much about ourselves. Wow. Yeah. Keep everything. It's all, it's very buttoned up.2 (12m 27s):Wow. When I first moved here, I really appreciated that, you know, I've done some wild swings geographically, like yeah. Growing up in Sacramento was kind of one sort of thing unto itself that doesn't relate that much to California. Yeah. And then going to Chicago was like, oh, okay. I like this. These people are really down to earth. You know, then I got kind of sick of that. And then I moved to back to California, to the bay area. And I really was into that for awhile. And then I felt like, oh my God, this is all. So this is all bullshit. Like talking about everybody was an imposter. I felt like everybody was low key. So aggro. And then just this hippie, you know, talking about free level the time.2 (13m 8s):And then we moved to New York and I was like, oh, people will just get right to the point here. I really appreciate that. And I never got tired of that, but then we moved here and I thought, oh, this is new England. This is what the pilgrims they've decided a way to be. And it's very buttoned up and they haven't changed in, you know, 300 years. For, you know, have like a little ideas folder in my notes where I just make it little snippets of ideas and write them down. And I've had like six or seven that I realized are all circling around the same idea, which is, I want to have a movie or some, or some type of a script where it's a superhero, but the superhero, their power is that they can interact through some type of magic.2 (14m 8s):They can intervene in somebody else's life when they're making bad decisions. This is sort of romantic coaching and like, Hmm, maybe it's virtual reality, but they, they can kind of put themselves into the body of the person who's making the bad decisions and then help them. You know, it's like, it's basically like the therapist having none of the barriers to, you know, wellness or whatever, and just kind of getting right in there at the same time as this is a comment about how we look to other people to tell us how to behave. Anyway, the superheroes name is psyche and I love it. And, and I'm, I'm it, I'm it.2 (14m 49s):I want to kind of continue with this idea, but I am woefully terrible with plot, as I think we've talked about before. I don't know if you're talking about the podcast before and it's such a, it makes perfect sense that my given my own psychology, that plot would be the hardest thing,1 (15m 11s):Because more that,2 (15m 13s):Well, my, my mother is the first person to tell you, she's never done anything with a plan. She's always just reacted to whatever has come her way. In fact, the idea of like having a goal and working towards it was literally something I never learned until I met my husband. Wow. When like a week, a day. And he was like, what are you going to do today? And I said, oh, I think I'm going to sit out in the sun. And he said, what? I thought you were trying to be an actress. I thought you were like, well, you don't have any time to sit down and do anything. Like you have a goal. And that, and that's been my thing is like, I, I have these vague undefined or have had vague undefined goals yet that in some ways I'm working towards, but because there's no sort of master plan or not a conscious one, if don't know how to get from a, to B to C I know everything about what it looks like as you're traveling from a to B to C, I had to describe it and everything like that.2 (16m 10s):But as far as charting a course of like, this is where I'm starting, and this is where I'm going to end up. That's pretty new to me. And I feel like that's why I struggle with clot. Cause I just don't have like a lot of idea of how something unfolds.1 (16m 26s):Seriously. Literally just ADHD. Could that be,2 (16m 30s):Oh, maybe you have ADHD.1 (16m 33s):Did we talk about2 (16m 33s):This? I have add1 (16m 36s):Or add. So if you have that, this is when I talk to writers who have add that this is their exact situation. Oh, okay. Excellent. With dialogue, excellent. With everything except the actual plot pointing to a, to B, to C you just, I think you just need a class in some add meds. Like I'm serious. I, I don't think, Hey, this is not a, this is, this could be a very practical thing. So, so my father had some big problems, but was a brilliant man in a lot of ways, right? His dissertation, he could see the whole thing where it was going to end up.1 (17m 16s):He knew what he wanted people to feel when he read it. He knew he could not write the thing. So my mother ended up writing it for him. Please don't take your degree away possibly anyway, because he couldn't do the, the actual thing. So I I'm wondering, just like my thing was kind of practical of finding a coworking space and not getting a divorce kind of a situation like yours is literally like, could be a physiological response to too much stimuli going on and how to get to, to your vision. So, and maybe2 (17m 54s):I need a coach.1 (17m 56s):Well, Gina funny, you should bring that up because I was going to say to you, how much is it worth for? You know, I tried to tell you as being your coach on our pocket,2 (18m 6s):That would have been so slick. That would have been like, you're like, I, wasn't going to mention this to you, but I'm actually becoming okay.1 (18m 12s):I'm actually a coach now. So anyway, that is my 2 cents. When you start saying, when you start talking about that, I was like, wait a second. This is not a psychological problem. I don't think,2 (18m 25s):Okay. I mean, you know what? That sounds right to me.1 (18m 29s):Well, it makes a lot of work. You're not lazy and you're not, it's not like you don't have ambition. That's not true because you we've talked a lot on the podcast about how, like having some sense of power is really important to you. Maybe not fame, but power, the power that comes with that. So I'm like, all right, so that's not someone that has no ambition, right? So that's gotta be a different mechanism in the brain. That's not connecting in some way because you're also a people pleaser. So if someone, so my guess is if I w I would wonder if we did an experiment, like if you were in a class, right. And the class person was the teacher, the person in authority was like, and you trusted this person or mentor, whoever writing group, whatever the higher power is in that moment said, she said to you, Gita, you must do, you know, act one must be written by this date.1 (19m 18s):I wonder if you do it,2 (19m 20s):I would, I totally would. In fact, that's a part of me has been like, should I try to get into an MFA program? I don't think that's the answer. I class first just take a class,1 (19m 31s):The script anatomy, there's all these classes that like, that we can talk about later, but like take a class. I know I should have taken a class and not enrolled in an MFA program. Like that was what I, I mean, it was,2 (19m 44s):Can I tell you one of my favorite slash least favorite things in the world is when I have a big problem. And the answer is like, something really is. I both love and hate that. I hate it because I think, wow, why didn't I think of that? And why have I spent so much time just like ruminating and cogitating and wringing my hands about something that has like a pretty straightforward answer. Yeah.1 (20m 6s):And a lot of times, a lot of times us, I think kids that weren't really, for whatever reason, didn't get what they needed, emotionally, make all these things. Our brain works overtime to try to figure things out when this solution, like, I remember, like when I started having panic attacks, I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I went to the doctor. He's like, you have a panic disorder, take this pill. And I was like, what? Yeah.2 (20m 31s):How could it be that easy? How could it be? How could it be? I feel like in that if I were in your shoes, I would think, no, no, no, I don't just have something that everybody else has. I have a truly unique, right. Is that what you were feeling?1 (20m 44s):Yeah. I thought I was going to end up in a state run nursing and I had a panic disorder. It was so I couldn't, and I think it gets wrapped up in shame and wrapped up and I should be able to, I could be, you know, all that shit, but yeah, it, it, it was like, he was like, no, no, no, no, you have something called a panic disorder. It's in this book and it was a DSM. He was like, it's in this book. And he read the, the stuff, the criteria. And I was like, I had that. He was like, no shit. Which is why I'm telling you to take this pill, the Zoloft. And I was like, wow, it didn't even cross my mind. The other thing is, nobody tells you about it. Like a lot of the struggle that we have, I think at, or at least that I have is internal. Right. So I don't, I'm not sharing it with people, which is why I think the podcast is good because maybe someone's listening to the podcast going, oh fuck.1 (21m 29s):Maybe I just have a panic disorder or maybe I have add, or I need a class instead of my life is over.2 (21m 36s):I'm terrible. I'm fundamentally incapable of getting any better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you for that. What a gift1 (21m 42s):You gave me? Well, yeah, that's just what came forward. I'm like, wait, this is not a psychological weirdo, psychological pathological emotional problem.0 (21m 55s):Well,4 (22m 0s):Today on the podcast, we're talking to Kate, Dougan a playwriting major from DePaul theater school who currently lives in Morocco, where she teaches English. She is also a performer and has some interesting stories about her road from wanting to be a performer to deciding, to be a writer. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate Dougan2 (22m 27s):Oh my God. You haven't changed you one1 (22m 30s):Tiny bit. Let's say.3 (22m 34s):Thanks. Wow. Nice to see you girls. Do you guys look the same? I can't believe it. 30 years almost, right?2 (22m 41s):Yeah. Don't say it like that.3 (22m 43s): sorry. It's been 30 years since I graduated from high school. 25, since I graduated from college.1 (22m 53s):It's a long2 (22m 54s):You go by Kate.3 (22m 55s):Yeah. I go by Kate now. I grew up from Katie. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.2 (23m 3s):Well, Kate Dougan congratulations used for five to theater3 (23m 7s):School. I did. I did.2 (23m 10s):You are now in of all places, Morocco, what the heck's going on in Morocco?3 (23m 15s):I'm teaching a high school here at an American high school. Yeah. My husband is Moroccan. So that's how we ended up here. We met in Chicago, worked together and in 2018. Yeah. We just decided it was, you know, he, his parents are, you know, getting a little older and he had not lived in Morocco for about 20, 25 years. And so he decided, you know, he wanted maybe try to come home for a little while. And so he got a job at an American high school. He's a teacher, he's a math teacher. And so we came and then I, I started sort of in one job that didn't really work for me.3 (24m 2s):Cause I initially thought like I was coming to teach theater. Always. The reality is never quite the same as what everybody says is gonna happen. And so, but when we got here, so I tried to teach a theater class, it didn't school wasn't quite ready for it. Then I sort of morphed into teaching English as a second language. And then last year during, well, during 20 19, 20, 20, I got my teaching accreditation to teach high school English. So I teach English language and literature. So yeah. Yeah. How cool do you like it? I do, actually.3 (24m 43s):I like it a lot. I, you know, everybody says the teaching is the hardest job and in many ways, teaching really is the hardest job. Like you, it's a lot of work and it's kind of, it's almost like doing like five shows a day, but you have to write all of your own material and learn all of your own material. And you know, it, it, you have to sort of, you have to really be ready for like a group of high school kids. I mean, these are, you know, they, they want to be engaged and they want to be entertained and they want to, you know, and if you can do those things and talk to the kids and be real with them, then you know, it works.3 (25m 28s):And on days that you're not quite up for it, it's a little tough. But yeah, I do like it a lot. I mean, I think that if you like to be in the room with the kids, then, then you you're, you're going to win, you know? Yeah. There's, I think that there's unfortunately, a lot of teachers who don't necessarily like children. And so you kind of questioned that sometimes. I'm sure we've all had experiences as students in that kind of situation. But yeah, I liked the kids. I liked being with high school kids, you know, they're alive and interested and you know, they haven't given up yet.3 (26m 11s):It's true. There, there, I read something to them the other day about, yeah, they're not dead yet. They're still alive. So that's, that's what I like about it.1 (26m 21s):The other thing I was going to say is that my, my mom was a teacher and she used to say the first year of teaching, like full-time was the hardest year of her life. And she like cried every day after school and it was the most rewarding. And so I, yeah, yeah.3 (26m 39s):I mean, my first year was 2019 or 20. So 2019 to 2020, I was doing my accreditation and I was teaching part-time and that was March, 2020, obviously it was all online. And then September, we started back, it was my first year teaching full time. And, you know, we had one class that was online and then everybody, you know, the kids had the option to be online if they wanted to. So there was one class online and then there were students in school and yeah, you're just trying to, you know, learn, figure out what you're doing and teach yourself the material and, you know, stay alive and handle whatever it was.3 (27m 20s):It was, it was a very stressful year. Last year I got to the, I got to June and I was really tired and really stressed out. And I just, you know, the good part of that is I have declared this year. I will never let myself get into that state again, you know, whatever I have to do to maintain my balance is really important to me. And so far it seems to be working. I I'm feeling much more on top of things this year, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.2 (27m 55s):So beef, let's talk about the period of time you decided to go to theater school. You did, you caught up on the east coast.3 (28m 7s):Yeah. I, well, not exactly. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I know. I always thought of it as east coast. And then years later I was like, I think Pittsburgh is really Midwest. Like, I mean, it's, it's like this close to Ohio where I was from was like this close to West Virginia. So there's a whole other element going on. So it almost, you know, it is east coast, I guess, officially, but it has sort of a Midwest sort of feel like blue collar, you know, town, but yeah, so I grew up in Pittsburgh. I, I don't know.3 (28m 48s):Do you guys just want me to do grow2 (28m 49s):Performing and I do high school plays3 (28m 52s):And stuff. Okay. So not, not as much as I would've liked. I knew from a very young age that I did want to go into theater. We, we lived up the hill from a small college Washington and Jefferson college. I'm from Washington, Pennsylvania. And you know, they built a new like art center one year. And I remember going to see my first theater show there and it had just opened. And I think it was the Rainmaker. I think my dad knew the guy, the place Starbuck, and I just, you know, like, so we want to see the play and it was just the whole experience of it, you know, going to the theater and sitting in the audience and the lights and the people.3 (29m 36s):And I just remember like when the lights went down at the, at the end, I was just like, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do this, you know, how old were you? I was eight actually. So I, yeah, it got me at an early age. I wish I had gotten set on something else a little bit. But1 (30m 0s):Why Did the theater break your heart?3 (30m 5s):Ah, did the theater break? My heart? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, everybody's journey is different. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's not that it broke my heart now. I feel like I just wish I had no, of course. I mean, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change the trajectory. I wouldn't change that love, you know, like that feeling. But I think just like when you experience something like that, it's such a young age, like your mind gets like really set on that thing. And like, I think it's important to grow and change and you know, obviously I've done that and I've done other things.3 (30m 46s):It just, I don't know. No, because I don't wish it was really different. So I, but I, you know, we all have our moments, right. I'm sure. Of course.1 (30m 57s):Yeah. That's what this whole podcast is about where we were like, what the fuck was that? And theater broke my heart over and over again. I thought it was going to be one thing or the business and I, it was not that thing. So I, for me, it's been a off and on heartbreaking experience with the theater. And that doesn't mean that there hasn't been intense love to, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's all part of the same, but yeah. So you, you, from a young age, you were like, you saw Rainmaker and you were like, that's it? Yeah.3 (31m 25s):So that's what I want to do. And so, I mean, but like I said, it was a small town there wasn't like a whole lot going on there. I never really took any acting classes or anything until I was in high school. You know, I went like there was a, there was an acting teacher at my high school. And I just remember like going to her class and being like super excited to finally like, get to do this thing. And like, you know, she asked everybody to kind of give a spiel like about what they want to do. And so I talked about it. I was like, this is really what I want to do with my life. I'm really excited about it. I, I just, you know, this is it for me.3 (32m 6s):And, and I just remember her, like, it wasn't necessarily that day, but like at some point she just kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, you're the one that wants to be an actress. And it was like that first, like, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It was like that first experience of like, oh, I guess like me being excited about it, isn't necessarily going to get people to be positive with me. There was certain that there was an element of bitterness, I guess, which I think happens to people, you know, and I think it happens justifiably.3 (32m 53s):And so I think, you know, it's very important to me that I don't become bitter that I, and I'm glad I haven't, but I, I felt it was a very, it was like that first experience, like, okay, this is somebody that I, I, this is something I want to do. And this is somebody that can help me. And she was just not very enthusiastic about being helpful to me, you know, like, yeah. Who knows I was, it was kind of a weird year for me. So maybe I, you know, wasn't a very good student or something, or maybe she,1 (33m 25s):She, she, that's a shitty you you're probably right on. No, no, because I know because I've done that to people. Actually, I, I feel like I've dampened peoples. I do this with my husband all the time where I rain on his parade. And she rained on your parade a little bit. I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't have good reason to rain grades, but she did. And that, that is sort of, we hear it a lot. So I would think for someone to either either blatantly or inadvertently reign on a youngster's parade in terms of their artistic dreams.3 (33m 57s):So like at high school, I wasn't really that, like, I, I think I, we did like a play for my English class or something. So I don't know. I, I try, like I was in speech and debate and I went to one meet. And let me tell you like the power of the mind. Like I got laryngitis that day. Like I got laryngitis on the bus on the way to the meet and couldn't talk all day. And then on the bus on the way home I was able to speak. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's, yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other . I mean, does that mean you1 (34m 37s):Didn't keep going with speech and debate3 (34m 39s):Or you had no, I don't think I did. I don't really remember. I obviously it was not a huge part of my life because I think at some point I was like, okay, this is not the person that's going to help me. I'm not getting feeling very positive vibes here. And so I'm gonna try to, you know, do other things. So then I started taking acting classes.1 (34m 60s):Did she wait to interrupt? Did she run the speech and debate thing too?3 (35m 3s):Yes, she did. Oh, no.1 (35m 5s):So that's, I mean, there you go. I mean, that's3 (35m 8s):How my mom1 (35m 9s):Running.3 (35m 11s):Yeah. Who knows. Anyway, so then I started going to like taking acting classes in downtown Pittsburgh. There was the civic light opera, and they had like an academy of, it was musical theater, but I just took straight acting classes. I was never like really a singer or anything like that. And that was a really positive experience for me. I had a great teacher, Jill, and, you know, we did a lot of scene study and she was, she was the opposite, you know, she was a very positive person, very loving and sweet. And, you know, really, you made me feel good about what I was doing and what I could do.3 (35m 52s):So, you know, there are those people as well that, you know,2 (35m 57s):Who suggested that you could pursue it for college.3 (36m 5s):I mean, I think it was never, for me, it was just never a question like, but I long story, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in the acting program at DePaul, I was in the play. I was in the wait. I was in the, I was in the playwriting program. Yeah.2 (36m 27s):Why do I remember you as being in class with me? But I feel like I remember you as being one of the actors. I remember seeing you on Steve.3 (36m 38s):No, I, I, I doubt it. I, I, unless2 (36m 42s):Were you in a play onstage?3 (36m 44s):I don't think so. No. I mean, unless it was like some kind of workshop for one of my plays or something like that, but no,2 (36m 54s):I mean, do you remember me at all? I3 (36m 56s):Do remember. Yeah. I remember you guys. I remember you completely. I just, so I think I graduated. I was a year older than you guys. I think. When did you graduate? I graduated in 96. Okay. So yeah, one year older. You will, so, okay, go ahead.2 (37m 14s):Awesome. Yeah, that happened. What the hell?3 (37m 19s):Well, let me, let me dial back to, to where, cause you asked me if my teacher wanted me to go to college and for me, like there was just no other, I was going to school for theater and there was no stopping me. You know, it was funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts and, and I listened to Caitlin Kiernan's and she was just like, you know, I was 18. Like, what do you, you know, like what did I think? I don't know, but I just, this is what my mind was set on. So, so I'm sure she, she, I remember her telling me that that acting teacher, she was like of all of my, you know, she put me aside and this one other girl, Heather, who I think has actually done pretty well. I think she lives in LA and you know, there's not a lot of TV work.3 (38m 0s):And she was like, you know, she's like of my students. I think you guys have real potential to make something in this business. So she was very positive. So then I started auditioning. I auditioned for probably not enough schools. I should've heard DePaul and like Carnegie Mellon and I think some other, a couple of other schools. And so then I kind of had my mind set in Chicago. My brother lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I had gone to visit him. And I just really like fell in love with the city. And I always knew that I wanted to go to school in a city. So I kind of got my mind set on Chicago. I was like, well, if I get in the car to Carnegie Mellon, I'm from Pittsburgh obviously, but I didn't.3 (38m 45s):So then I auditioned for DePaul and I didn't get in my first, I didn't get in. And so I decided to take a year off and try again, which my dad was not super happy about, but I just had my mindset. I was like, no, I'm going to take year off. And then I'm going to try it again. I'm going to audition again. And that's it. And it ended up being, you know, I think taking your off was a good thing for me. I auditioned again and I didn't get in again. And so, you know, it's funny, like listening to these stories of you guys, like, and all the struggles that you went through and it's like, well, you know, well, at least you, you got in what's true.3 (39m 33s):Like there are different struggles. Yeah. There are different struggles for sure. But then so, and I, when I didn't get in the second time, I was just, I don't know. I think I was just set on Chicago. I was kind of set on DePaul. They'd offered me a place in theater studies program. And so I took it and then I, I decided when I was there to do join the playwriting program, and this is 1996 or 1992. And I was like, at that point I was like, literally like the only person in the playwriting program. My first year, there was like one person who was like a sophomore.3 (40m 14s):I think it was like the second or third year that Dean Corrin was there. He had just been taken on to start this program. And so, yeah. And then as I went through like a few other people joined like Diane Herrera and I think Adam Matthias was also in the writing program. And so while I was there kind of grew a little bit. Yeah. So I, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know. You just want me to keep talking? I feel like2 (40m 51s):I was just ask a question about the theater studies program, because I don't know that we've ever really talked about that program and, and how you just described it, made it sound like that's where people can go to figure out what non-acting thing they want to do in theater.3 (41m 9s):I mean, I think I, to be honest, you know, I mean, let's not kid ourselves college is about making money. Right. For, for most people it's, for-profit, it's private school. I think that they wanted to build the program and yeah. I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I did pretty good on my SATs. My grades were decent and I don't know, maybe my audition was okay. And so it was sort of, yeah, like, you know, they offered it to people like, you know, if you want to come, you're not invited to the acting program, but if you want, you can come to the theater studies program. And so I said, no, the first year, and then the second year I was like, I'm ready to go to school. I mean, sometimes I think I probably would've been better off like going to like a smaller school that didn't necessarily require an audition or something like that, but say levee.3 (41m 57s):Right. And, and so, yeah, I was like, well, I guess I'll do playwriting. And I, I, I mean, I'm glad I did it for many reasons. It was not, it ended up being a really good choice for me. I mean, I think like listening to you guys talk about the competition and, you know, sort of like, I don't do well with rejection. You know, I think you really, I don't, I don't necessarily like love to be the center of attention. And I think like, as an actor or at least to be successful on some level, you have to want that attention.3 (42m 42s):I mean, you guys do, do you feel that you like being the center of attention? She does.1 (42m 49s):Like, I love, I am constantly and mine is, if you listen to the podcast, like we talk about the psychological stuff. Like, I, I still, you know, feel like I wasn't treated right as a kid. So I'm constantly, I'm so transparent about it. I'm constantly trying to get the approval of my mother. Who's dead by the way. So yeah, I, I can say that, like, I want to belong and I want someone to say you are special and I pick you. That's like my dark sort of shadow side. And it always will be for me. I think even if I work through it, I think we all have our shadow sides and that's, and that's mine. And I think it transformed into, oh, maybe if this school likes me, that will give me that sense, but I never got that from DePaul because, you know, one it's that set up for that too.1 (43m 37s):People are bitter and weird and three it's an inside job. Yeah.3 (43m 41s):Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like part of it was, I am the youngest of four and so I think it was like that craving for attention. Like I totally get what you're saying there. So, I mean, I like to be on stage, but like, I don't necessarily like the auditioning part of it and I don't necessarily, you know, like have to be the center of attention to parties or any of those things. But I did, you know, I really did enjoy, I really do enjoy acting like I, I do like it, but so1 (44m 12s):You, you,3 (44m 12s):You were doing a playwriting BFA. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You did.1 (44m 18s):And your plays got workshopped.3 (44m 21s):Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the program was still very fledgling and I think because, you know, I wasn't in the acting program, you know, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, I think admitted,1 (44m 43s):Wait, I just have to say, like, there's something really fierce about auditioning twice for the program and then going to theater school, studying theater studies, look at your, at a young age to say, you know what? I fucking want to go to school. So I'm going to, I mean, talk about, I, I see it as, you know, I hate calling people brave, cause I think it's kind of sending, but I think it's fierce to say I'm still going to go to this school. I mean, of course you had, I would have a chip on my shoulder so big. I wouldn't go. Yeah. You went and got an education for God's sake in a degree.3 (45m 16s):Yeah. And I, I, I got a really good education, you know, that's part of what was really positive for me. And I'll go back to the question about workshopping in a second. But what was positive for me is that the theater school had this glitch in their, in their system in because the acting students had to take so many classes cause you guys had yoga and movement to music and scene study and whoever knows what else. So like as part of your tuition, you could take up to 24 credits. And so what I did is I then got a really great liberal arts education.3 (45m 57s):I took poetry writing classes. I took like performance of literature. I took video editing. I took intro to film. I took like,1 (46m 10s):We'll do you could do that Kate? Like, how did you figure out like, oh, I have 24 credits. I'm going to use these.3 (46m 15s):I really don't. I don't know that anybody told me, I think I just figured it out at some point. And I was like, okay, well I guess I'm going to get my money's worth and I'm going to go take these other classes and these other schools and learn how to write and learn how to make films and do intro to film and learn, you know? So like I really loved college. I don't, you know, the theater school was, I don't have anything negative to really say about the theater school either. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I sort of had that chip on my shoulder to begin with about being part of the theater school about feeling like Jen, like you said, like about feeling like an insider, but you know, all my friends were in the theater school.3 (47m 2s):I, I love theater people. I really enjoyed that experience. But, but part of my good college experience happened outside of it in many ways, just because I kind of took the reins and I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have some fun with this and get a good education and, and play. And I, I loved it. I loved school. I loved learning new things and try new things. I even, I even took like a leave of absence from the theater for theater school for one quarter. Cause I did a, an overseas, I went to Ireland for a quarter.3 (47m 43s):So, and to do that, I had to take a leave of absence from the theaters. Yeah. Does that seem familiar? Yeah, probably Kelly was crying because I was supposed to be her roommate, but I never got which Kelly Kelly and Mick Adams. I was when I came back from Ireland, we were supposed to be roommates, but I never called and she just got her own apartments. And then I was like, oh my God, I don't know where I'm going to live. But yeah. So I, you know, anyway, so back to my theater school experience, so was, was positive also for playwriting. I, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, Dean Corrin was great, you know, we took like dramatic criticism we had yeah.3 (48m 30s):You know, another, another theme that I have, you know, listening to your podcast and you guys talked about it a little bit is like self-sabotage or not taking advantage of the opportunities presented to you. I feel like, because I kind of had that chip and I wanted to be an actor. Like I didn't necessarily take advantage of the opportunities, like playwriting opportunities, which came easier of course, because cause that's the way it goes, because if you want something it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to be easy, but if you're kind of, sort of like, well maybe, maybe not then the opportunities roll in, but yeah, like we had a poetry or a playwriting workshop class with Sandy Shinar she worked at victory gardens at the time.3 (49m 18s):Yeah. And she was good friends with Dean and like he had her come in as like a guest teacher one day and we were going to work my play and he'd given it to her and she had read it and, and I was just, I don't know. I, I just was like, oh God, I hate that. I really don't want to work on it. Do we have to do this? Can we do something else? And like how we shoot ourselves in the foot, you know, like what an opportunity really? And because I was insecure and scared, I'm sure like whatever psychological, you know, thing you want to come up with that, that, that we, we do to why, why we do these things for ourselves.3 (50m 1s):So, you know, and I, I had other opportunities like that along the way that I didn't necessarily take advantage of. But1 (50m 8s):Did you pull your play or did you work3 (50m 10s):On it? We didn't work on it. No, because there was somebody else in the class who was much smarter than I was and was like, oh, well here's my play. We can do my play. We can work on mine today. Yeah. I know. That's really that's.1 (50m 26s):I mean, I totally relate. And I think it, it just speaks to many things, but like, you weren't ready for that and that's it. And I, I'm starting to look at things like ready versus not ready versus good and bad. So you just weren't ready to have that experience. And we can look back and, you know, I listened to Gina and I talk to people on and we're like, we blame ourselves for that, but you just simply didn't have the emotional resources to take in that experience. And that sucks. But,2 (51m 1s):And when you're not ready, it, people could say anything to you. That person could have said, we want you to be the new resident playwright, a victory gardens. You would've said, I don't think so.1 (51m 13s):I could've gotten the laryngitis again. Like it it's, we couldn't stop.3 (51m 19s):That's so interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's, that's hearing it come from you. It, it, it's nice Rather than me saying it to myself or trying to figure out, like, why, why do I do these things to myself?1 (51m 37s):And it's interesting having done all these podcasts, Kate, we see it over and over again. So we have the data to tell you that people have, we've heard like so many people like with these ICTs being offered these things and being like, no, I'm not going to move to LA because you know, I have an apartment in Wrigleyville. Like I'm not going to be a movie star. And people are like, what's the D we all have that. I think that's part of growing up. And I also also think it's part of expecting young people to really handle a lot of things we cannot handle.3 (52m 11s):Yeah. They're one of the books that I, I teach my students is called outliers. Have you guys read it? It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he, you know, there's a section in where he talks about practical intelligence and you know, how some people, the people that are successful, you know, they grow up with a certain family life, or, you know, maybe it's about money. It's about education. It's about these things. But it's also just knowing how to handle yourself in certain situations and knowing how to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. And I think if you aren't, if you don't have that, or you're not taught that it is hard sometimes to, you know?2 (52m 50s):Yeah. And what, I just heard you, I mean, when you said, it's good to hear that from us, that made me think, oh, you've been beating yourself up about this for 25 years to yourself. Why did I squander this opportunity? Which, I mean, whether or not you did it, it's completely human. That, that you might occasionally have that thought, but have you spent a lot of time in, in regret?3 (53m 18s):I mean, I don't think so. I think I don't spend a lot of time in regret. You know, I definitely had moments over the years. I, well, a few years back, I sort of had like a little bit of a, not a breakdown, but like, I think of my midlife crisis started and like my, you know, I have two kids and my daughter was, you know, eight and my son was four and it was just kind of like, you know, you know, when kids are babies, it's just baby, baby, baby, baby. You don't, you don't have time to think about yourself. So who cares? And then like when you start to get back to yourself a little bit, it's just like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm 42 or, you know, whatever, and what have I really done?3 (54m 8s):And you know, what am I doing? And you know, is this, this, this it, I mean, I, I was teaching yoga. So, I mean, that's also a part of my journey. I mean, like I, so when I got out of school, like I did acting for a while, like, I've done some very bad independent films. Do you guys know Sandra Delgado? Oh yeah. Yeah. She, I like, we did a really bad film together in the early two thousands. And, you know, like I did like a horror film and I was like, had some small parts as mother independent films.3 (54m 52s):And, you know, I, I was trying to act and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and like I did a couple of plays, but it was just never, you know, I just could never get to a certain point. I really just, I would have done theater and crappy theater and whatever, but I just, I couldn't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I have the, that decade that I called the, the bad boyfriend years, so which we can all relate to on some level, which I, you know, where we all waste a lot of energy on people who don't deserve it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so then, yeah, like a few years back, so it was kind of not in a good place.3 (55m 39s):And I was like, okay, well, I guess it's now or never. And I, I finally finished the play, so I went back to writing. Yeah. That's huge. That's awesome. You know, I finally cause I, I was like, okay, I guess if I'm going to try, I guess I gotta try. And, you know, I, I really discovered a few things. I discovered that I like writing. I, I feel good when I'm doing it. You know, there's a lot of positives to it in that way. I finished the play. I, it got, it got into like the second round at the Austin film festival.3 (56m 19s):So that was, yeah, that was pretty cool. I guess, since it was just like my first foray out of doing anything in theater in quite some time, and I had a stage reading in Chicago and then it sort of, you know, petered out after that. I, I was sending it out, sending it out, but no, no, no hits after that. But so, you know, I'm kind of gearing up to write again. So, no, I don't, I don't have, I don't, I haven't been beating myself up about it. I think that, you know, life takes a course and you can only do what you are doing in the time that you're doing it.3 (57m 0s):You only have the information that you have. You only have the life skills that you have. You only have the resources that you have. And so I think regret, I don't waste a lot of time on regret. I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and sort of like you said, Jen, like everybody's story is the same, a little bit. And that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, I've looked up to and had a lot of respect for and were really good actors and good at what they did. It just didn't happen for them. And so that's, that's like, I, yeah.2 (57m 37s):So I'm still just trying to, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why I just remember you as being an acting student, maybe it had to do with that. You were friends with Kelly and maybe because of your friendship with Kelly.3 (57m 54s):Yeah, probably that was it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was friends with all the apartment three crew. I, yeah.1 (58m 2s):So I mean, I like, I like that even like deeper in my brain, I was like, what if I was taking on your desire to be an actor? I saw you as an actor because it was so strong that you wanted to be an actor. Like, I literally have an image of you on stage, but I actually can't3 (58m 22s):Be somebody else. Yeah. I1 (58m 25s):It's your face. It's really weird. So, anyway,3 (58m 27s):I mean, I guess at one time, like I had a play that maybe I did a stage reading of with Darryl Dickerson at school and maybe some other actors, maybe Kelly was in it. I don't know. But that would have really been like in a classroom. Yeah, yeah, no, I not an actor or, I mean, I am an actor, but none of the theater school. Yeah.2 (58m 54s):So these days, I mean, when you're talking about the work of being an English teacher, it reminded me actually, ironically, just a few days ago, I ran across a notebook that I haven't opened since I was a teacher of social studies and drama. And I re remember that I used to take for social studies. I used to write my lesson like a monologue kind of, and sort of not memorize it exactly, but almost like repeatedly rehearse it because it was not information that I already knew. I was learning the lesson right before I taught it. And teaching is so performative that during that time I was doing theater at the time.2 (59m 35s):But even if I weren't, I think I would have felt fulfilled in a performance way. Do you have that feeling about being a teacher? That it feels like a performance?3 (59m 50s):I guess what I, I do like the exchange of energy, like, like you would get from say a live audience or something like that. I don't know that I necessarily look at it as a performance, but I do feel like, yeah, you, obviously you have to be ready. You have to know what you're going to say. You have to know the material. And like, even if it is you just learning it that day or getting, you know, I feel that exchange, like, I feel good after class, like after talking with the kids and being with the kids and talking at them and, and teaching them, it does feel that way, like a little bit like that exchange of energy that you get from an audience a little bit.3 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah.2 (1h 0m 37s):Do you otherwise feel a kind of a need to do, do you have a need for any other type of creative outlet or your guys you're doing it because you're kind of getting back into3 (1h 0m 48s):My goal is to, yeah. To start writing again, like, I, I don't know how, what your, how you guys write. Like, I don't know what if you're constantly writing all the time or for me it's, it's like, I tend to sort of get inspiration and then work on something, you know, in a, in, in a period of time. Or if I create the discipline, like when I finished this play, I was getting up at like four 30 every day. I was teaching yoga at the time and the kids were, you know, still pretty young. And so I knew that the only way it was ever going to work is if I was disciplined enough to, you know, set that time aside, this is my time, my time to write.3 (1h 1m 33s):And so now, you know, after, like you said, you know, that first year is so hard, so now I'm starting to get my legs again. And I'm hoping to, yeah. Maybe start working on something I have, I've like dabbled in screenwriting before a little bit. So I'm thinking about, maybe I'm getting too into that a little bit.1 (1h 1m 57s):I have a question for you when you took playwriting. So this is interesting because it was such a young program, right. Was there any actually teaching of writing at the theater school, Like how to write a play?3 (1h 2m 12s):You know, it's funny about that. It's funny because I mean, like, I, it feels like we would write and we give it the stuff to Dean and we had deadlines and things like that. And he would give us feedback on it. You know, it's the funny thing is, is like the only, I feel like the only piece of practical writing advice that I ever got, and I, this is nothing against Dean. It's just what I remember. So Dean was awesome. I loved him. Well, we had a visiting playwright from Nigeria all over TIMI. I don't know if you remember him being there. He was there for like one quarter and he basically just like, kind of taught me to, to write a bit, you know, he's like, he's like, you have this scene here.3 (1h 2m 57s):And the guy he's at the cafe and he wants his coffee, but the waitress isn't giving him his coffee. He has to keep asking for his coffee over and over again. And it was just like, oh, you mean, I have to create like a little bit of dramatic tension in the scene, what a revelation. Right?2 (1h 3m 16s):Like it just a Mo create3 (1h 3m 17s):A moment. I felt like, you know, he gave me some real practical advice. It was just like, okay, you just have to, you know, these two people are here and you have to kind of, he wants his coffee and she won't give him his coffee and that's where the comedy comes in. And so, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know how much, you know, they taught me about writing. I feel like I could have used a little bit of more help, like in practical matters, you know, listening to Kate's thing when you guys all went out for your showcase and that kind of thing. Like if somebody had talked to me more about submitting my work, maybe that would have been helpful.3 (1h 3m 58s):I mean, it's so weird though, to think of it at that time. I mean, I was, we were sending out headshots through the mail. We were sending out work through the mail. I mean, you have to go ,1 (1h 4m 14s):You'd have to go to what was called Kinko's then print out your play and then, and then mail it in an envelope to theaters or drop it off in person.3 (1h 4m 24s):And there was like that, like one place where you could get your headshots downtown, like the one like photography place where you could go and get like your headshots in bulk and you'd have to go pick them up. And like the blue2 (1h 4m 35s):Box. I remember the blue box.3 (1h 4m 37s):Yes. I still box exactly. You know,1 (1h 4m 44s):I think, or2 (1h 4m 45s):Yeah, something like that. So. Okay. So then let's talk about the period between graduating and we're where you are now. So you, well, you said you were auditioning,3 (1h 4m 57s):So I graduated. Yeah. And then after that, I, I, you know, I would go in spurts of productivity, you know, where I would audition a lot. You know, I was always looking at performing, you know, once again, trying to, I took a lot of classes in Chicago. I, I took classes at the actor's center. They had a lot of Meisner there. I did Steven, Steven. I have a villages program. He had a studio in like Wicker park. And so he had like a, like a, I think it was like a nine month program or something. So you would, you know, go and you'd be with the same group.3 (1h 5m 40s):And I went through a program there. I took classes downtown at, I forget what it's called now, the audition studio, or, you know, and I remember taking like an on-camera class with Erica Daniels. And who was the other, who was the lady that she always worked with? The casting director. Do you remember she was blonde1 (1h 6m 8s):Phyllis at Steppenwolf?3 (1h 6m 9s):No. It was like a casting director. Her name began with an ass. I want to say it was like Sharon or Sally, or, I dunno, she was like a big casting director at the time. So I took like an on-camera class with them, you know, I, Yeah. I don't know. It's funny cause like you, you, there's these moments where you realize like you're trying to be funny and it just, isn't funny and it just ends up really awkward. And that was one of those moments with them, you know, you're trying to impress somebody and, and she, I was sort of like chubby in high school.3 (1h 6m 57s):And so I think that as with most women who have issues with body issues, like you, you have those body issues forever. It takes a long time to shake them off. And I remember they gave me the scene. It was, the character was played by Sarah rule. Yeah. So, you know, she was a little overweight at the time, you know, and I remember kind of making this off-color joke about how, oh, I guess I see you gave me the, the part of the fat girl or something like that. Like really like probably not appropriate, but I, I meant it to be self-deprecating, but I wasn't really fat at the time.3 (1h 7m 37s):So it was didn't come off as self-deprecating it was another one of those instances where it's just like, and the woman just like hated me after that, you know? And Erica was pretty cool. I think she kind of realized that I was just nervous and awkward. And with the other woman, I remember seeing her like outside after, and she crossed the street to like, not talk to me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm such an asshole. Like, why did I say that? I didn't mean it. You know? And so I'm even blushing now I think thinking about it,1 (1h 8m 10s):You said what probably a lot of people were thinking when they would get that.2 (1h 8m 15s):Honestly, you can rest assured that absolutely every person who was there was just in an internal monologue about their own body issues. I mean, that's, that's the thing that comes up over and over again, when we feel so much shame about something like that, it's like, those people would never remember it. A and if, even if they did, they'd say with the benefit of hindsight, they might say, oh yeah, well, that just brought up for me. You know, my feelings about myself. And3 (1h 8m 44s):I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it just, it, so I took classes all over the city. I auditioned a lot, like I said, I did some independent films and then, you know, like I was still auditioning kind of in spurts over time, I think. And then I discovered yoga. And so I started doing Bikram yoga. It's just the hot yoga. I hear you guys talking about cults and cult leaders a lot on here. He's, he's one of those guys. He's a, he's a cult leader, a guru now downfall on by sexual harassment.3 (1h 9m 26s):But I started doing the yoga and that was like 2007, I think. And, you know, I had a friend who really kind of pushed me to go do the training and I wasn't really sure, but I decided to go do it. And you know, it kind of, I think, I don't know if you guys have ever done yoga, but it is sort of, you know, it kind of, it gave me something that I had been missing in a way. I think, you know, it is that, that mind body connection, I think I had been very detached from my body for many reasons, you know, abuse and all that.3 (1h 10m 7s):Like not physical abuse, but other kinds of abuse. And, and so like, I think that people get detached from their bodies. And so I think I was really connected to it in a way, and I felt good, you know, in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I think that's the hardest thing. Sometimes when it goes, when you go back to theater, it's like you put so much energy into it and so much time. And I took so many classes and, you know, I enjoyed the classes and, but I just, you know, I really wanted to get on stage and it was just like, I just couldn't get there. And I think like at a certain point, you're just kind of like, what positive am I getting from this thing that I'm giving all this time and energy and love to like, what's the positives that I'm getting out of this.3 (1h 10m 55s):And I'm not, I'm not really seeing it anymore. You know, you know, I, I would get calls from people. We loved your audition. It was lovely. Please come audition for us again. So, you know, there, there were positives, but it just could never, it just really came to fruition. And so then I started doing the yoga and I, I felt really connected to it and I felt really good and in a way that I hadn't felt. And so then I started teaching yoga and I did that for like 10 years while I was having babies and raising them. And then like, yeah.3 (1h 11m 36s):So then 27 16, I started writing again.2 (1h 11m 40s):I did, I did Bikram yoga for like two years and you're just making me re remember that part of what I liked about it. It was kind of like rehearsal. I mean, cause you just go and you do the same, whatever it is, 26 poses. And the set is the same and the smell the same. And it is kind of like, it's very rich of all the nuggets, like really ritualistic.3 (1h 12m 8s):It is very ritualistic and you know, I haven't been practicing here in Morocco. Sometimes I, you know, close all the doors to my kitchen and I turn on t
Intro: buzzsaws and clean slates, rage, Where the Wild Things AreLet Me Run This By You: MoneyInterview: We talk to Carole Schweid about Juilliard, Phoebe Brand, John Lehne, Michael Brand, Midnight Cowboy, musical comedy performance, open dance calls, starring in the original cast of A Chorus Line, Bob Fosse, Pat Birch, Martha Graham, Minnie's Boys, Mervyn Nelson, playing Fastrada in the first national tour of Pippin, being a lone wolf in theatre, Lewis J. Stadlen, doing West Side Story at Bucks County Playhouse, Shelly Winters, Mary Hinkson, Nellie Forbush in South Pacific, playing Tzeitel in Fiddler on the Roof, Peppermint Lounge, Nick Dante, Michael Bennett, Marvin Hamlisch, Public Theater, Gerry Schoenfeld, The Shubert, the wish for a job vs. the real experience of working, Theda Bara & The Frontier Rabbi, Agnes de Mille, Play With Your Food, Staged Reading Magic, Albert Hague.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense1 (20s):If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? As more space is actually a huge thing.2 (36s):Yeah. I have to apologize for the sound of buzz saws. What is going to be going the whole time I'm talking, doing well, you1 (50s):Took some trees down, right.2 (53s):You know, that's how it started. Yeah. It started with actually, you know, it all was a surprise to me, basically one we've been talking about taking down all the trees in the front of our house. And one day Aaron said, they're coming tomorrow to take down the trees. And I'm like, how much did that cost? Because you know, taking down trees is usually really expensive. And so he says, well, he's going to do everything in the front for whatever. It was $5,000.1 (1m 22s):Yeah. She was pretty good for more than one tree. Cause one tree we had removed was $5,000 at my mom's.2 (1m 28s):Well, and it's not like they have to extract the whole tree. It's just, you know, just chopping it down. Like it's not, I don't know if it's different when they have to take out the, yeah,1 (1m 38s):I think it is when they have to take the stump out the roots and all that.2 (1m 43s):So that was fine. Although I did think to myself, Hmm. We have $5,000 to spend and this is what we're spending it on.1 (1m 54s):I've been there. Oh, I've been there2 (1m 56s):So the morning, but I'm letting it go. And so the morning comes and he tells me to go outside so we can talk about the trees and, and, and I, anyway, we, we designate some trees and they're all in the lower part of the front of our house.1 (2m 10s):Yes. You, and by the way, for people that don't know, like you have a lot of land for, for, for, for not being in the super super country, you have a lot of courage. I mean, you got a lot of trees.2 (2m 21s):Well, yeah, we have an acre and it's a lot of trees and it's a lot of junk trees. What they call junk trees. Because the idea here is once upon a time, when everybody got their heat from wood, you had to have fast growing trees. So it's these skinny trees. Yeah. Anyway, so I thought we were sort of on the same page about what we were going down. This is where I'm getting with this. And I had a couple of meetings yesterday and I was hearing the sound pretty close, but it wasn't until I looked outside that I saw, they took everything out.2 (3m 1s):The, every living thing out in the, in the front, in front of our house, including the only tree I was really attached to was I have a beautiful lilac tree.1 (3m 14s):Okay. Oh shit. And everything out.2 (3m 21s):What's that? Why they1 (3m 22s):Take everything out? Is that the plant? I think,2 (3m 25s):I think what happened was for the first couple of days, the boss was here. And then I think yesterday, the boss was like, you guys just go and finish up. And I don't know that anyway, you know what, I'm just choosing it to be, I'm choosing to look at it like, okay, well we're getting to start over and it can be exactly how we want it to be. So yeah,1 (3m 45s):That is a great attitude because there's nothing you can do you really do about it? Absolutely. Zero. You can do about threes coming out.2 (3m 53s):The only bummer is that it sounds like buzz saws all day at my house and at my neighbor's house, I'm sure they're annoyed with us too. Well,1 (4m 2s):What are you going to put? It is. Okay. So, so, okay. The good, that's the sort of wonky news, but what the good news is, what are you going to put in? Like, is there going to be a whole new,2 (4m 12s):I think it's just going to GRA, I mean, I think it's just going to be grass, which is fine. I mean, my thing was actually, it does a little bit of a metaphor because when we first moved here, we loved how quiet and private and everything is. And part of why everything feels very private at our house is there's trees and bushes blocking our view of anything. I mean, all we can see is trees and bushes when we're laying on the front, which for a while seemed cozy. And then it started to seem like annoying that we could never see. And actually there's kind of a really beautiful view of the mountains behind us. So our mountains Hills.1 (4m 51s):Yeah. But I mean, small mountains, like small2 (4m 53s):Mountains. Yeah. So I realized that it does coincide with our psychological spelunking and trying to just be like more open about everything. Like totally. You know what I mean? Like this is just be open to people seeing our house. This is open to seeing out and let's have, and actually my kids were kind of like, oh, but it's just also open and we don't have any privacy. And I'm like, yeah, well you have your room and bathroom. I mean, there's, there's places to go if you don't want people to, to see you, but let's just be open.1 (5m 31s):There's like a whole, yeah. It's a great metaphor for being visible. Like I am all about lately. I have found a lot of comfort and refuge in the truth of the matter, even if it's not pretty, even if I don't actually like it. So like getting the facts of the matter and also sharing the, of the matter without a judgment. So I appreciate this, like wanting to be seen and then letting go of what people make of that, whether your house is this way or that way, or the neighbors think this or that, I'm also the, I I'm all about it.1 (6m 15s):I'm like, you know, this is, there's something about transparency. That's very comforting for me. It's also scary because people don't like it when they can see, or they can say whatever they want, but the hiding, I think I'm pretty convinced hiding from myself and from others leads to trouble.2 (6m 37s):It leads to trouble. And any time you're having to kind of keep track of what you're, you know, being open about and what you're not, and what you've said, you know, it just it's like it's T it's listen. If I only have a certain amount of real estate in my mind, I really don't want to allocate any of it too. Right. Hiding something and trying to remember. Right.1 (7m 1s):And it's interesting, the more that we do this podcast, the more I see that, like, you know what I thought gene, I thought when we're dead, this podcast is going to remain. And then our children's children's children. I mean, I don't have kids, but my nieces and nephew and your children's children's children will have a record of this. And, and I'd rather it be a record of the truth, the truth and transparency, then some show about pretending. So I think it's going to be good for them to be able to look back and be like, for me, it's like the, my crazy aunt, like, what was she doing? And what did she think? And, and, oh my God, it's a record of the times too.1 (7m 43s):Yeah.2 (7m 43s):I think about that kind of a lot. And I think about, of course I say all this and my kids are probably like going to be, have no interests unless the, until they get to a certain age, I mean, I'll put it to you this way. If I could listen to a podcast of my mother in her, you know, in the time that I don't really the time of life, certainly before I was born, but in my life where I still didn't see her as a person until, you know, I'd love to just things like what her voice sounded like then, and that kind of thing. I mean, it's interesting.1 (8m 16s):I have nothing of my mom, like we have a very few, it was interesting because we didn't, you know, we, there was not a lot of video of my mother and today's actually the 10th anniversary of her passing.2 (8m 28s):Oh, wow. Wow. That's hard.1 (8m 31s):It is hard. You know, it is hard. And I'm working through, I started therapy with a new therapist, like a regular LCSW lady. Who's not because my last guy was an Orthodox Jewish man who wanted me to have children. Like it was a whole new, I just got involved in all the Shannon Diego's of like weirdness. I attracted that weirdest and whatever. So this lady is like a legit, you know, therapist. And they only bummer is, and I totally understand she's on zoom, but like, I I'm so sick of like, I would love to be in a room with a therapist, but I get it. She's in, she's an older lady, which is also great. I was so sick of having like 28 year old therapists.1 (9m 13s):Yeah,2 (9m 13s):Yeah, yeah. For sure.1 (9m 16s):I don't even seem right. Unless clients are like, you know, fit seven to 17. So anyway, so, but all this to say about my mom, I was thinking about it and I think what's harder than right. My mom's death right now is that there's I just, you know, and this is something I wanted to bring up with you is just like, I have a lot of rage that's coming up lately about my childhood and we weren't allowed to feel rage. And my mom was the only one allowed to feel rage. And so this rage mixed with perimenopause slash menopause. I mean, like I still get a period, but like, it's, it's a matter of time before that's over.1 (9m 58s):So, but the rage, so I guess, right. I get, you know, people like to talk about rage as some or anger as something we need to process and we need to do this and that, but the truth of the matter is since we're being transparent, like rage can be really scary. Like sometimes the rage, I feel, it's not like I'm going to do anything. Why wonky? I hope, but it's more like a, I don't know what to do with it. That is my, and I was talking in therapy about that. Like, I'm not actually sure. Practically when the feelings come up, what to do with rage. And I feel like it speaks to in our culture of like, we're all about now, this sort of like, we talk about this fake positivity and shit like that.1 (10m 41s):And also like embracing all your feelings, but there's not really practical things that we learn what to do when you feel like you're going to take your laptop and literally take it and throw it across the room and then go to jail. Like you, you. So I have to like look up things on the internet with literally like what to do with my rage.2 (11m 1s):I think that's why that's part of my attraction to reality. Television shows is a, is a performance of rage. That's that I wouldn't do just because I don't think I could tolerate the consequences. I mean, an upwards interpretation is, oh, it's not my value, but it's really just like, I don't think I can manage the content of the consequences. I'm totally at having all these blown up1 (11m 30s):And people mad at me and legal consequences. I can't,2 (11m 35s):It's something very gratifying about watching people just give in to all of their rage impulses and it's yeah. I, it it's, it may be particularly true for women, but I think it's really just true for everybody that there's very few rage outlets, although I guess actually maybe sports. Well, when it turns, when it turns sideways, then that's also not acceptable.1 (12m 3s):Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's why I love all this true crime is like, these people act out their rage, but like lately to be honest, the true crime hasn't been doing it for me. It's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. It's sort of like, well, I've watched so much of it that like now I'm watching stuff in different languages, true crime. And I'll start again. No, no, just stories. I haven't all been the only stories that I haven't heard really, really are the ones from other countries now. So I'm watching like, like true crime in new, in Delhi.2 (12m 42s):Do you need your fix? I actually was listening to some podcasts that I listened to. There's always an ad and it's exactly about this. It's like, we love true crime, but we've heard every story we know about every grisly murder, you know, detail. And it was touting itself as a podcast of, for next time I listened to it. I'll note the name of it so I can share it with you. You know, about this crimes. You haven't heard about1 (13m 9s):T the thing is a lot of them now, because I'm becoming more of a kind of sewer. Like a lot of it is just shittily made. So like the, the they're subtitled and dubbed in India, like India. So you've got like the, the they're speaking another language and then they're and if they don't match, so then I'm like, well, who's right. Like, is it the dubbing that's right. Or the subtitles that are right. And, and actually the words matter because I'm a writer. So it was like one anyway, it's poorly done is what I'm saying in my mind. And so it sort of scraped scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like deli 9 1 1. I swear to God. That's what it, and, and it's, and also it's, it's horrifying because the, you know, the legal systems everywhere fucked, but India has quite a system.2 (13m 57s):I think that to the rage, like, tell me more about what comes up for you with rage and where you,1 (14m 6s):Yeah. Okay. So some of it is physiological, like where I feel literally like, and I think this is what my doctor's talking about. The menopause symptoms. I literally feel like a gnashing, my teeth. Like, I feel a tenseness in my jaw. Like, that's literally that. And she's like, that could also be your heart medication. So talk to your heart doctor. I mean, we're checking out all the things, but like, but it's tension. That's what it really feels like in my body is like tight tension where I feel earth like that. If I had to put a sound effect to it, it's like, ah, so I, I feel that is the first symptom of my rage. And then I feel like, and, and I say out loud, sometimes I hate my life.1 (14m 54s):That's what I say. And that is something I have never allowed myself to say before. Like I, I think unconsciously, I always told myself, like, you just, you have to be grateful and you know, those are the messages we receive, but sometimes life just fucking sucks. And sometimes my life, I just, I just can't stand. And, and in moments, you know, I never loved myself. So it's mostly a physical symptom followed by this is intolerable, what someone is doing. Sometimes my dog or my husband, but even, even if the coworking space, you know, like the lady was talking too loud and I was like, oh my God, this is intolerable.1 (15m 34s):She has to shut up. So agitation, that's what it is. And, and then it passes when I, if I, if I can say, oh my gosh, I am so fricking in Rouge right now. Then it passes.2 (15m 52s):Yeah. Well, it, it kind of sounds like from, from you and probably for most people, the only real option is to turn it in on yourself, you know, like you're not going to put it elsewhere. So you've, you know, you have, which is, so I guess maybe it's okay if you turn it on yourself, if you're doing, if you're working, if you're doing it with acceptance, which is the thing I'm gathering from you, as opposed to stewing and festering. And1 (16m 21s):I mean, it becomes, it's interesting. Yes, it is. So it's like, so red, hot, and so sudden, almost that the only thing I can do is say, okay, this is actually happening. Like, I can't pretend this isn't happening. I, it I'm like physically clenching my fists. And then I, yeah, there is a level of acceptance. I don't get panicked anymore. Now that I, that something is wrong. I just say, oh, this is rage. I name it. I'm like, I feel enraged and white, hot rage, and then it, and then it, and then I say, that's what this is.1 (17m 3s):I don't know why. I don't know where it's coming from. Right. In this moment. It's not proportionate to the lady, like literally talking on the phone at my coworking space that she's not shouting. So it's not that. And I don't want to miss that. I'm not like I can't fool myself to think that it's really, that lady's problem. That I feel like throwing my laptop at her head. And then, and then it passes. But, but, but it is, it is more and more. And, and I think a lot of it, not a lot of it, but you know, my doctor really does think that it's, it's hormonal. A lot of it just doesn't help the matter. I mean, it's not like, oh, great. It's hormonal. Everything's fine. But it, it does help to make me feel a little less bonkers.2 (17m 45s):Maybe you should have like a, a whole rage. Like what, like a rate. Well, first I was thinking you should have a range outfit. Like, oh, for me, if I, I noticed I pee in the winter anyway, I pick like my meanest boots and my leather jacket. When I'm feeling, you know, maybe say maybe kind of a rage outfit, when did Pierce?1 (18m 9s):No, I, I scratched myself in my sleep. Oh no, it's okay. It happens all the time. I do it in my sleep. It's a thing that it's like a little skin tag that I need to get removed. It's2 (18m 23s):So you could have a rage outfit and then you could have a rage playlist, And then you might even have like rage props. I'm just trying to think about a way that your ma you, you could write because if, if how you process something is artistically creatively, then maybe you needed a creative outlet that's specifically for, for race.1 (18m 48s):Yeah. And you know, the, I, I love that. And now I'm thinking about like, as a kid, we, because we, anger was so off limits to us. I used to violently chew gum. Like I would chew on the gum. That was a way, and my mom did the same thing, even though she also got her rage out, but it was like, you know, when people violently chew on their gum, like that was a way I could get my aggression out. That's so sad that that's like the only way.2 (19m 16s):Well, I mean, you find it wherever you can find me. It's like water looking for whatever that expression is, right? Yeah. Huh. Well, I have to get more in touch with my rage because I I'm told that I seem angry a lot.1 (19m 33s):You do.2 (19m 35s):I, I do get told that, but, but that sucks for me because I feel like I'm not expressing my anger and I'm, but I'm not. So I'm not, and I'm being seen as angry at certain times. So that means I didn't even get the benefit of like letting out the anger that somebody is.1 (19m 56s):Right. You didn't even get to act out the anger. It's like, yeah. So for me, miles tells me that all the time, like, he's like, you seem really in couples therapy. Also, I have to admit yesterday was a big day. We had couples therapy on zoom. Then I had individual therapy. And in between I had all kinds of like, just stuff happening. So, but yeah, I'm told I a miles is like, you seem so angry and he's not wrong. And, and we take it out on the people that we live in a two by four apartment with. So I also feel like this office space is helping with that, but yeah, I dunno, I'm going to have to keep exploring my, my rage and that's what it is.1 (20m 37s):And also it is like, I am the character in where the wild things are that kid, that is what I feel like. And it feels it's like the perfect cause he wants to gnash his teeth and, and he does, and a thrash, thrash, thrashing mash, or the words 2 (21m 6s):Let me run this by you that I wanted to do when we're going to talk to Molly that we didn't get to do. And it was based on made, you know, and just about money and, and wondering like what your relationship is right now with money. And also, but when were you at your lowest with money? What do you remember as being your lowest moment? Sure, sure. With money with money.1 (21m 40s):Okay. I have moments of what first comes to mind was when right. I was at DePaul. So it's an apropos in college and there was obviously a sense. I had a sense of lack, always, even though based on whatever, but it was phone. Somehow my accounts were always negative, right? Like, and I would call the number, the banking number, incessantly to check, and it would always be negative. So I have this panic thoughts about that. Like being a time of like, and that's not the only time that happened like that.1 (22m 23s):Where, what is the feeling? The feeling was that, and this was in college where it started to happen, where I felt like there's never enough. No, one's going to help me. I'm irresponsible with money. Was the message I told myself and I probably was, I was in college, but I can't handle money. And literally that, that panic was also, I mean, it was true. I had no money, but my parents would have backed me, probably helped me out, but I was too scared to ask for help. So that's like, that's when, when you asked that question, that's where I go.1 (23m 4s):But, but that's also a college kind of me. So like in terms of an adult, me, that's a really great, great question. My lowest, I don't know. What about you?2 (23m 22s):Well, I've got a lot of Loma Loehmann's moments with money when I was in high school. The thing was, I lost my wallet all the time.1 (23m 35s):Oh, I remember this. I remember you talking about,2 (23m 38s):Yeah, that'd be still lose stuff all the time. That actually started at a young age with, you know, my mom would, she, my mom was really into jewelry and she would buy me destroyed. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that she brought me jewelry, but I lost it. You know, she buy me nice gold jewelry1 (23m 59s):Because she likes nice things. That's right. Yeah.2 (24m 4s):In college it was pretty bad. And the first time it was pretty bad. I had to move back in with my mom because I couldn't afford rent. And then the second time I just, I re I really, if I had more bravery, I probably would have signed up to be one of those girls in the back of the Chicago reader. Like, I, I, I just figured what ha how literally, how else? Because I had a job, but I only worked however much I could work given the fact that we were in rehearsals and like busy all day, so I never could make enough money. And then I just, I think I always have had a dysfunctional relationship with money.1 (24m 51s):Wait a minute, but I have to interrupt. Why, why didn't our parents fucking help us? Okay. Look, I know I sound like a spoiled asshole brat, but like, when I think of the anxiety that we were going through and I know your mom did, so I'm not going to talk shit about your mom or anything, but I'm just saying like, why did we feel so alone in this when we were so young, this is not right.2 (25m 11s):Yeah. Well, my mom did help me out as much as she possibly could, but I think part of it too, my dad certainly didn't think it was that. I mean, when my mom was 18 and my dad was 19, they bought a house and had a baby. So I think part of it is, has been like, what's the matter with you? Cause I didn't go to college, you know, that's the other thing. So, so then when I, then I had a period for like 10 years where I always had three jobs, me two, what1 (25m 46s):Did you have enough then? I mean like, could you make rapid enough?2 (25m 49s):I had enough then yeah, I had enough then. But then when Aaron decided he wants to go to medical school, it was really on me to, to bring in the income. I mean, his parents always gave him money. They helped, it was a lot more. I mean, and actually it's why he became a therapist because I thought, well, we're going to be living with no income because he's going to be a student. Right. So I better giddy up and get a job. So the whole time I was in social work school, I was bartending. I remember that. And then I went quickly into private practice so that I could make money.2 (26m 29s):And it turned out to be, it turned out to backfire on me. Tell1 (26m 35s):Me, tell me, tell me more.2 (26m 37s):It backfired in two ways. Number one, I was, I shouldn't have been operating a private practice without my LCSW. I had my MSW and I was working at the time in a psych hospital. And all of the psychiatrist said, you should start your private practice. You should start your private practice. And I remember saying at the beginning, I don't know if I'm allowed to oh yes, yes. You definitely can. I know tons of MSWs into plenty of people and it's true. I don't know if it's still true now in New York, but at that time you could walk around and see plenty of nameplates for offices where somebody in private practice and that just have an MSW.2 (27m 18s):They just had to have a supervisor1 (27m 19s):Or something.2 (27m 22s):I don't know. Okay. I dunno. Right. So that ended up coming to haunt me when a disgruntled patient. And they're all disgruntled in some way, a family who actually had been swindled by a con artist, like they, they were a blue blood, rich ass family and they got swindled by a con artist. And so they were talking about rage. They had a lot of rage about that. When this guy who was paying for his daughter's treatment, didn't think it was going where, you know, he wanted it to right.2 (28m 4s):He started pushing back about the fee and then he was submitting to his insurance company and they were not reimbursing because I didn't have the LCSW. So then he reported me to the New York state office of professional discipline or1 (28m 21s):Whatever yeah.2 (28m 21s):Regulation or whatever. Yeah. And I ha I had to go through a whole thing. I had to have a lawyer and I had to go, yeah, yeah. It was a nightmare. It was a complete and total nightmare. And I, and I said nothing, but like, yeah, I did that. I did do that. And I did it because I needed to make the money. I mean, in some ways I don't regret it because I did it worked for the time that it worked. And then by the time it stopped working, I was ready to leave private practice anyway. Oh my God. Yeah. But then it also backfired because we were taking in this money, which we desperately needed living in New York city with two kids.2 (29m 3s):And, and we were, we were spending it all and not hold withholding any for taxes. So then that started, that started, that started almost 10 year saga of just, I mean, I, it's embarrassing to even say how much money we've paid in just in fees, compounded fees. Nope. I'm sure. In the last 10 years we've given the government a million dollars.1 (29m 29s):That sounds, that sounds about right. And you know, I think the thing with money too, is the amount of forgiveness I've need to muster up for the financial decisions that I have made. So one of them that I'm super embarrassed about is that, and I, and I hear you when it's like, yeah, I, it, it's embarrassing. I, I, when I did my solo show, I inherited the year that my mom died. My great aunt also died, who I very barely knew. And I inherited like, like a lot of money. Well, to me, a lot, like 50 grand from her, and I spent 15,000 on a publicist for my solo show that did nothing.1 (30m 14s):So I was swindled. Oh,2 (30m 17s):I'm so sorry to hear that. That really did nothing.1 (30m 22s):I could have done it all on my own. I could have done it all on my own, on drugs, in a coma. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, come on. So I have done made some questionable decisions. I did the best we did the best we could with, with the information that we all had at the time. I would never make that decision. I wouldn't, I will never make that mistake again. So yeah. Money is very, very, obviously this is so like kind of obvious to say, but it is, it is. So it is a way in which we really, really use it to either prize or shame ourselves. Right. And, and, and w I do it either way, like I do it.1 (31m 2s):Oh, I'm so fancy. I inherited this dough. And then I also do it. It's that thing that they talk about in program, which is like, you're the worm, but you're the best worm for the festival, special worms. And like, you're not a worker among workers. I'm just like the best idiot out there. It's like,2 (31m 18s):Dude. Yeah. And you're making me realize that money might be the only very quantifiable way of understanding your psychology list. The money is like, understanding your psychology through math. It's going okay. If you're a person like me who gets offered a credit card at age 20 totally signs up and, and immediately maxes it out at whatever, to get 27% interest rate. So whatever little thousand dollars of clothes I got, I probably paid $10 for it. And for the longest time. So, so that's me being afraid of the truth of my financial situation, being unwilling to sacrifice, having, you know, whatever, cute clothes being about the immediate gratification of it all and not thinking longterm.2 (32m 15s):Yeah.1 (32m 16s):Okay. Well, not asking for help either. Like, like, I don't know who I'd asked, but someone had to know more than me. I didn't ask my parents. They didn't really know what was happening at, or that just was their generation of like, not teaching us about money. It was sort of like, good luck. Get it together. We got it together. You get it together. Okay. Fine. But like unwillingness and fear to ask, to be taught something about money. Like, I didn't know, Jack shit about credit or interest Jack shit.2 (32m 46s):Yeah. And I recently realized that I'm basically redoing that with my kids, because we supposedly have this allowance. Only one of my kids ever remembers to ask for it because you know, only one of my kids is very, you know, very interested in money, but like, in a way I can understand why the others don't because it's like, well, anytime they want something, I pay for it. I never say sometimes I'll say recently, I've gotten better about saying, if we're going to go back to school shopping I'll especially if the oldest one, I'll say, this is your budget. If you, if you spend it all on one pair of sneakers, then I hope you're okay with your sweat pants that don't fit and wear them everyday for the rest of the school year.2 (33m 31s):Right. But it's, we've, we've just been extremely inconsistent in tying, like, for example, chores to your allowance,1 (33m 42s):It's fucking miserable and hard. And I have trouble doing that for myself. I wouldn't be able to do that for my children. If I had children, I can't not give the dog people food. What are you talking about? How am I going to bring it? Doesn't shock me. We didn't learn the skills and I'm not blaming. I mean, I'm blaming, of course my parents, but I'm also just saying, it's just the facts. If we're going to be that in the truth, like, I didn't learn, I didn't educate myself and nobody educated me. So I'm really learning through trial and error. Mostly error, how to be okay with money. And it is you're right. Like finances, romance, and finance teach us the most about our psychology.2 (34m 24s):Yeah. Yeah. Romance finance. I love that. 1 (34m 28s):I think that my boss at Lutheran social services to say all the time, finance and romance, romance, and finance, that's what all these addictions are about is that's how you see them. I'm like, she's right. I mean, she was, I liked her. She was bonkers, but I liked her. She said some good. She, she also is famous for saying, and she didn't say it, but she would always quote, the, no one gets out of here alive. You know, none of us getting out of here life, we might as well start2 (34m 54s):. Well, today on the podcast, we were talking to Carol Schweid and original cast member of the original production of a chorus line on Broadway. She's got great stories to tell she's a fascinating person. And I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Carol Schweid. Exactly. Carol shrine. Congratulations. You survived theater school. I did. You did.2 (35m 34s):And where did you go to theater school. Okay. First of all,3 (35m 38s):Let me just take my coffee, my extra coffee off of the stove and put it on my table. Cause it's gonna burn because we don't want that.4 (35m 51s):Okay. You're I am looking for a cop. If you have one, you know, this is ridiculous.3 (36m 2s):Hi there. Hi. This is a riot that you talk about surviving theater school. I think it's great. Okay. So this is working, right? You can hear me. Yeah, no, totally. A hundred percent. So this is my, I started college at Boston university. I was an acting major, which I loved. I really did, but I, what I loved more than anything was I loved the history of the theater. We had a great professor who told the tales of the gladiators and the, you know, the gladiators on the island and the fighting, and then the island, the survivors, and then the island would slowly sink into the water.3 (36m 45s):What is this? What did I miss? It was the early history of the theater. It was starting on the church steps. It was, you know, the second, whatever all of that history was, I found it really interesting. I also loved the station shop crew stuff. I liked learning about lighting. I was terrible at it. I, you know, I would fall off ladder, but I, I, I enjoyed the backstage stuff as much as I enjoy. I just, I liked it. I, we did the rose tattoo and my, and my first job was to take care of the goat. I was on the prop crew.3 (37m 28s):I took care of the goat. Was it a stuffed goat? No, it was a real goat. Wow. What can I tell you? The rose tattoo. There's a goat in the play. I didn't realize you could have livestock and colleges, college, whatever it was. I look like I have jaundice with is that something's wrong with the light jump I sent you stop your, where is the microphone part of your, do you want me to hold it up better? Because when you move, it hits your shirt and it makes like a scratching, right? That's right. I'll do it this way. I won't move around. When you look tan, you look, you don't like jaundice at all. Okay. Well then that's all right. Good. Thanks. Were the goat handlers.3 (38m 8s):Good to talk to you. I mean, that was, and I didn't mind, I didn't mind being an usher. All of those things, you know, I remember somebody sitting us down and saying, you're you are the first person. The audience we'll meet tonight as an usher. I took all of the stuff I did, but the acting business was very confusing to me. I didn't quite know. I had done a lot of theater and dancing and been in the shows and stuff, but I really, I was a little more of a dancer than an actor. I'd taken class in the city. I'd followed some cute guy from summer camp to his acting class. But half the time, I honestly didn't understand a word.3 (38m 48s):Anybody said, I just, nobody does. I really didn't get it so much at the time I loved it, but I didn't always get it. And for some reason, and I have no idea where this, why this happened. I had a boyfriend in summer stock whose mother worked at Barnard and her best friend was a woman named Martha Hill. Martha Hill ran the dance department at a school called Julliard. Nope. I had no idea. Cool. Just a little, nothing school. This is back in the day. It's a long time ago. It was just a plain old school. It wasn't like a school, you know, where you bow down. And I really was a very good dancer and always loved dancing.3 (39m 33s):You know, I've been dancing since I'm like a kid, a little five or six or whatever. So I was a little disenchanted with my successes at Boston U even though I had friends, I was having a great time. I mean, Boston in the late sixties was amazingly fun, but I felt like I wasn't getting it. I mean, it wasn't a school that was cutting people. Thank God, because that would have been torture. I don't know how anybody survives that, but I audition for this dance department in this school called Juilliard and got in and then told my parents that I was going to change colleges. I remember making up a dance in the basement of my dorm in Boston.3 (40m 17s):Cause you had a sort of take class and then you had to show something that you should have made up. And somebody else from college was leaving school to come to New York to be a singer. So we decided we were going to be roommates. And then we had a summer stock. Somebody at BU started some summer theaters. So I had a job or two, I think I had some friends from there. So I ended up moving, changing colleges and going to Juilliard. And I spent three years there. I was a modern dancer major. So we had the Limone company, including Jose Lamone wow teachers and the Graham company.3 (40m 59s):I mean, Martha, Martha Graham did not teach, but her company did as a winter and Helen, I was Helen McGee. One of the, they were maniacs. I mean, they're, they're like gods and goddesses and their whole life is about dance. And I was one of those demonstrators for her eight o'clock beginning class, my third year of school. I mean, I, it was all about technique. We had amazing ballet teachers. We had Fiorella Keane who, I mean, Anthony tutor taught class there and he was Anthony. I mean, so I got a out of being at that school that I have never lost. I mean, I can, I'm making up the answers for high school kids now really.3 (41m 42s):I'm just finishing up a production of grease, which is really kind of boring, but whatever I liked Greece, tell me more. Yeah. It's okay. If you hear it enough, you really get sick of it. Well, that's true. Yeah. I mean high school kids doing high school kids is like, Jesus, God, you just want to slit your throat. The moodiness when it comes to the girls. I mean, I love them. I really love them. I love the guys because puppies, they fall all over each other and they're fabulous, but that's a lie anyway. So I did something that I don't know why I did it and how it worked out. That way I left. I had a very best friend in college that was, you know, and I came to New York and made, made and shared an apartment with this slightly crazy woman.3 (42m 32s):And a year later I got myself a studio apartment on west end avenue and 71st street. And my mom co-signed the lease. And I spent three years dancing, honestly dancing almost every day. I wanted to take sights singing, but they wouldn't let me because I was in the dance department. And I didn't know, you could advocate for that. Sure. I didn't know. You could take classes at Columbia. I mean, who had time anyway, but was it a three-year program? It was a four year program, but I had taken a music class at BU that was like music appreciation one. Yeah. And for whatever reason, they gave me credit for that.3 (43m 14s):So I had a full year credit. Yep. Three years of Juilliard where I really worked my tail off. What's weird about it is that I am, you know, just a plain old Jewish girl from New Jersey, you know, a middle-class Jewish girlfriend. And to, to think that I could have a profession where people don't talk and don't eat, which is what the answers do is a riot to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's an absolute riot because you know, I mean, that should be basically the manual for dancers. Don't talk, don't eat, but I always knew that I was heading to Broadway. I really have always wanted to do that.3 (43m 55s):And I, and, and w was not really ever in question that I would, I somehow assumed if I worked hard and figured it out enough, I would find my way to working on Broadway. And I, and I made the right choice in the sense of switching colleges. Because in the seventies, if you look at your list of Broadway shows, all the directors were choreographers. They were all dancers, all of them Fauci, Michael Bennett champion, all of them. So I started working when I got out of school, you know, it was, and I had already done a couple of summers of summer stock and I did a summer Bushkill pencil, you know, these ridiculous, stupid theaters all over, but it was a blast.3 (44m 36s):It was fun. Where, what was your first job out of school? I was still, I was in school and it was the Mount Suttington Playhouse, which was like a tin shell in Connecticut. And I think it was still in college. Cause two guys from school had opened this theater at the skiing place, but it wasn't skiing. Then it was a sh it was like a tin shell. So couldn't really do a show when it was raining very well. And I believe it was stopped the world. I want to get off and I can still remember the Alto harmony to some of the songs. So you okay. Wait, so you don't consider, you didn't consider yourself a, an actor or did you?3 (45m 20s):Well, I did, but I think what happened was I had to audition for something. It'd be you like, they had grad programs and it wasn't that I was unsuccessful there, but somebody came and I didn't get cast. I didn't get hired. And I didn't understand, you know, like they give you all these acting exercises. We do sense memory. Well, I didn't know they were exercises. I didn't, they were they're like plea aids. Right. They're like learning things. I took this all very seriously. I would stand in a room and try to feel it was like that song from chorus line, you know, try to feel the emotion, feel the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (46m 5s):I did all of that. I didn't really understand the simple, what am I want here? And what's in my way of trying to get it. Yeah. It took me so long to find teachers that I really could understand and make me a better actor. So when did you find them? When did you start to find them? Oh, that's interesting. Well, I found a couple of good teachers in New York. I mean, honestly there was a woman named Mary Tarsa who had been in the group theater and an older lady. I mean, it's a long time ago anyway, you know, but I remember sitting in her class and she would talk about using imagery and th and I started to sort of understand a little bit, which is amazing to me because after I moved to Westport and I met, do you know the name Phoebe brand?3 (46m 58s):Yeah. Phoebe brand was in our theater workshop. Oh, taught a class. She was already up in her eighties and she taught a class, a Shakespeare class on Sunday mornings. And all of a sudden these things that I didn't understand from decades before. Hmm. It sort of pulled it all together. But for me, I went, I was in California after I got married and moved to LA for a couple of years, found a teacher named John LAN and Lee H N E and two years in his class. I started to really understand how to do it. And then when I came back to New York, he sent me to Michael Howard and Michael Howard, Michael Howard was a great teacher for me.3 (47m 44s):He's still a great, I don't know if he's still around if he's teaching or not, but he was a wonderful teacher. And I started to understand how to do it. Was Len the, did he teach the method or what was yes, he was, he was an actor studio teacher. And I started to understand about being present on the stage and being able to deal with people. All of it, it just changed dramatically. I mean, I started to understand what this was about and seeing other good actors and chipping away at it and finding people to rehearse with. And1 (48m 22s):You, you, from what I know, and what I'm gathering is that once you graduated Juilliard, you were cast in New York.3 (48m 30s):Well, you know, I did get my very, my V I I've. I mean, I, I remember going to see midnight cowboy, which was about the same time as I got out of college. And I remember going into a terrible panic of, oh my God. I mean, really scared about all of it. And I, I went, I joined a class that a friend of mine, somebody told me about this class, you know, I always follow somebody to a class. I'm always, I have good friends. And I, somebody says, oh, I love this guy come to class and I'd show up.3 (49m 12s):And this was a musical comedy singing class, kind of where there were writers in the class and actors in the class. And the writers in the class would work on a musical that they didn't have permission for. It wasn't like they were, we were doing this for money or for, for future. So my friend who I became friends with wrote her musical version of barefoot in the park and which has never been done, but I remember I was in it and this guy was in it. And we, it was the kind of a class where it was a very warm, funny group, funny group of wacko theater people. And I would go to open calls and I'd usually go to open dance calls because that was a door for me.3 (49m 59s):And also I used to have to sneak out of Jew, not sneak necessarily, but essentially sneak out to take my singing lessons. And I took singing lessons every, you know, every week for years, for three years, I would, you know, and I, and I was not really, I don't think a very good singer, but I became a good singer. I would sneak out of school and go to an acting class. I don't even know when I started that, but I know that I would find the time to do it and then talk about acting and find a teacher so that when I would audition for a musical and I would get through the dancing. Usually if I got through the first cut, I would make it to the end. I wouldn't always get the job, but if I made it through that first horrible, random cut, you know, where there's 200 people in your dancing across the stage and it's yes, no, yes, no.3 (50m 47s):Is it really?1 (50m 48s):Because I'm not a dancer. So I never had this. I, when my agents are like, oh, there's an open dance call. I'm like, ah, that's you sent the wrong person, the email. So it's really like that, like in, in chorus line where they say, you know,3 (51m 1s):Oh yeah. It's like all that jazz. It's really like that.2 (51m 6s):Wait, I have a question. I want to hear the re the rest of that. But I, I just, I've never asked anybody. What's the biggest difference between the people who got cut immediately. I mean, was it training or were there people that, in other words, were there people who were just walking in off the street with no training trying to audition? Yeah,1 (51m 29s):No, truly an open call.3 (51m 31s):No. And sometimes these were equity calls. Cause I, I, I did get my equity card on a summer. That one summer I worked for a non-union, you know, we were in either Bushkill Pennsylvania or Southern Eaton Connecticut, or I did a couple of those summers. And then the next summer, the choreographer from that show had an equity job. And he hired like three of us from our non-unions summer stock, because we were good enough. And1 (52m 4s):So when you went to these open calls, everyone, there was a bad-ass dancer. No one, there was like,3 (52m 10s):That's not true. That's not true. There were all different levels of dancers, but it was also a look await, you know, it was always, I was always like seven pounds overweight. It was like, the torture is thing of weight does enough to put anybody over the edge1 (52m 26s):That they literally3 (52m 27s):Weigh you, Carol. Oh God. No. Oh, but it's so look, and I will tell you there's one. There was one time when I remember auditioning for above Fossey show and there were a lot of people on the stage and we were whatever we were doing. And then at 1.3 Fossey dancers, it was their turn. And these three gals, okay. Their hair was perfect. Their makeup was fabulous. They had a little necklace, they had a black leotards, you know, cut up high, but not out of control. Good tights, no, no runs, nice shoes, nails done.3 (53m 7s):And they were fantastic. They were clean. They were technically, and we all sort of went, oh fuck.1 (53m 16s):Right.3 (53m 18s):Right. And I have friends who became Fossey dancers. I mean, I worked for Bob, but I have friends who did a lot of shows him. And they had that same experience where they saw other people, the way it should be. And then they would go back a month later and get the job because they knew what it took. It was all about knowing what it takes. But the thing about having studied acting and having slowly studied singing is that in the world of musical theater, I was ahead of the game because there's not that much time. So you have to be willing to spend all of your time.3 (54m 0s):Right.1 (54m 1s):There are some people I'm assuming Carol, that could dance wonderfully, but couldn't do the singing and the acting part. And that's where you were like, that's the triple threat newness of it all is like, you could do3 (54m 12s):Well, I could do them better than a lot of people. And I certainly could sing well, and I had, I could sing a short song and I knew that you sing a short song. I knew that you'd probably do an uptempo, you know? And also I tend to be a little angry when I go into an audition. It's like, why do I fuck? Do I have to audition? I better, duh. So I needed to find things that allowed me to be a little angry so I could be myself. And I could also be a little funny if I could figure out how to do that. So all of these things worked in my favor. And then of course, like everybody else in her, a lot of people, pat Birch, who was a choreographer, she had like a gazillion shows running, including Greece on Broadway. And now over here, I don't know if she did grease, but she did over here.3 (54m 55s):She did. She was very prolific choreographer. She had been a Martha Graham dancer and she had taught a couple of classes at Julliard. And when it came to my auditioning for her, she needed girls who could dance like boys. She didn't need tall leggy, chorus girls. We were doing the show she was working on, was a show called Minnie's boys. And it was a show about the Marx brothers and the last number of the show. We were all the whole chorus was dressed up like different Marx brothers. And she needed girls who could be low to the ground, who can, you could turn who and I was the right person.3 (55m 36s):And I remember being in that class, that wonderful musical theater class with a teacher named Mervin Nelson, who was just a great older guy who kind of worked in the business. I remember I had to go to my callback. I went to my class and the callback was at night. And I remember him walking me to the door, putting his arm around me and saying, go get the job. And if you don't get this one, we'll get you. The next one1 (56m 4s):That makes me want to3 (56m 4s):Cry. Well, it made me feel like part of the family, cause we all want to be part of that theater family. And so I tend to do that when I'm with an actor, who's going to go get a job or go get, you know, you want to feel like it's possible. Yeah. You feel like you can, you deserve it.1 (56m 29s):You said, you mentioned briefly that you worked for Bob3 (56m 32s):Fossey. I did.1 (56m 35s):Oh my gosh. Did you turn into one of those ladies that looked like a bossy dancer too? Like, did you then show up to those auditions? Like, oh3 (56m 43s):No, I don't think I, I couldn't, I didn't, I could not get into a chorus of Bob Fossey, but I did get to play for strata in Pippin in the, in the, in the first national tour. And he, Bob was the, he was the director and I, I knew I was the right person for that job. It was also a funny, kind of lovely circumstances that I was in some off-Broadway an off-Broadway show that had started as an awful off, off of a, that, that Bubba, that moved to an off-Broadway theater. I got some excellent reviews. And I think the day the review came out was the day I had my audition for Bob Fossey.3 (57m 24s):So I, and I played it. I had talked to people who knew him. I talked to, you know, I, I knew that I, I don't know, I just, I, I had done some work and I just, I don't know the right person at the right time, somebody, he needed it. That part required a good dancer. Who could, I don't know how I got the part. I just,1 (57m 57s):I'm kind of getting the impression that we're talking about being a strong dancer.3 (58m 0s):Well, let's strong dancer. And also being able to, being able to talk and sing was really the key. I'm not sure that I certainly, as a young person, I, I didn't do nearly as much comedy as I did when I got a little older, but, and also there were a lot of divisions. You sort of either did musicals or you did straight plays and it was hard to get into an audition even for a straight play. And the truth is I think that a lot of us who thought we were better than we were as you get better, you see when you really, wasn't a very strong actor.1 (58m 43s):Right. But there's something about that. What I'm noticing and what you're talking about is like, there's something about the confidence that you had by maybe thinking that you might've been a little better than you were that actually behooves young actors and performers that, you know, cause when Gina and I talked to these people were like, oh my God, they have a healthy ego, which actually helps them to not give up as where I was like, I'm terrible. I'm giving up at the first hour.3 (59m 9s):Exactly. Right. Right. And, and it, and it goes back and forth. It's like a CSO one day, you feel like, oh yeah, I'm good at this. I can walk it. I get, I'm like, I'm okay with this. And the next day you just to hide under the bed, I think that's sort of the way it goes. I didn't know that people who worked on Broadway even then all had coaches and teachers and support systems and you know, being kind of a little more of a lone Wolf, which I was, and still fight against in a way I come against that a lot, for whatever reasons, you know, whatever it doesn't work, what to be a lone Wolf.3 (59m 54s):Yeah. Yeah. You can't do this alone. You can't do it without a support system. It's just too hard because when I actually had the best opportunity I had, which was being part of a chorus line, it was harder than I thought to just be normal, come up with a good performance every night, you know, it was up and down and loaded and that you lost your voice and had nobody to talk to because you couldn't talk anyway. And we didn't have the internet yet. You know, there was so many, it was so much pressure and so much, and I hadn't really figured out how to create that support system up for myself.3 (1h 0m 42s):And it was harder, harder than it needed to be. Did you ultimately find it with the cast? No. Oh, not really where they mean, oh, none of the cast was fine. It wasn't that anybody was mean it's that I didn't take care of myself and I didn't know how I was supposed to take care of my shirt. How old were you when you were cast in a chorus line? 27? Maybe I was, I was young and, but I wasn't that young. I just, but it wasn't that C w it was a strange situation to, I was, I had already had one Broadway show, so I had done, and then I had gone out of town to bucks county Playhouse.3 (1h 1m 25s):And did west side story Romeo was your first Broadway show. I'm sorry. It was called Minnie's boys. Oh, that was it. That was my, I did. And it was a show about the Marx brothers. Right. And I don't know if you know who Louis. We would probably do Louis Stadol and Louis J Staglin who works with, he works with Nathan Lane a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like second bun and he's incredibly talented. He played Groucho. Okay. We were all 25 years old. We were kids. We were right out of college. And the weirdest part of all was that the mother was played by Shelley winters. And this was a musical. What a weird you've really. Okay. So then you went onto chorus line.3 (1h 2m 6s):Well then, well then in between that, this is like, you know, then, then I went out of town to bucks county. I love being in bucks county for a year. We did west side story. We did Romeo and Juliet during the week. We do them together, one in the morning, one in the afternoon for high school kids. And then on the weekends, we do one of the, and I was the only person in the cast who liked dancing at 10 o'clock in the morning. You know, I didn't mind doing west side at 10 in the morning. I'd been up at eight, being a demonstrator for Mary Hinkson, teaching people how to do a contraction. So I didn't care. I love working in the daytime. That's what I play with your food is such a nice success. My lunchtime theaters here, I get tired at night.3 (1h 2m 47s):I don't know.2 (1h 2m 49s):Most people do wait. So was the, was the audition process for chorus line?3 (1h 2m 56s):I have a great story. I can tell you what my story is. Okay. So I, I was in, I don't know what I was doing. I had done a lot of off-Broadway work. I had been doing, I had been working a lot. And then of course there were the year where I didn't work. And then I went off to south North Carolina and played Nellie Forbush in south Pacific, in the dinner theater for three months. And I loved that. Actually, I think it was one of those times I had a job and a boyfriend and it was like a relief. It was wonderful to have like a life and then do the show at night. You know, I, I enjoyed that a lot and I didn't, you know, it was a big part and I didn't panic about seeing it.3 (1h 3m 37s):And it was just, I learned a lot from doing a part like that. I was doing Fiddler on the roof at a dinner theater in New Jersey, down the street from where my folks lived. And occasionally my mom would stop by her rehearsal and watch the wedding scene. Honest to God. I'm not kidding. She's like, Carol, you ever gonna get married? Are you ever gonna? Okay. So I'm doing Fiddler on the roof, in New Jersey. And there's a guy in the cast, one of the bottle dancers who were dropping off at night on 55th street, because he's working on this little musical about dancers and he would bring in monologues and he'd asked me to read them at rehearsal because he wanted to hear them out loud.3 (1h 4m 25s):And there was some stuff about this place to ever hear the peppermint lounge back in the studio. Right. It was a disco thing, but it was also a place where there was something. I remember one the couch girls, girls who would just lie on the couches and the guys, I mean really crazy stuff that did not make it into the show, but some interesting stuff. And I was playing the eldest daughter sidle, and it's a terrific part for me. So I was good. Yeah. And Nick knew I was a dancer. Anyway, this little show called the chorus line was in its workshop. Second workshop. They had already done the I, cause I was not a Michael Bennett dancer. I didn't, you know, I, I, I had auditioned for my goal once for the tour of two for the Seesaw.3 (1h 5m 10s):And it was the leading part and I didn't get it. I auditioned, I sang and I read and I read and I sang and I didn't get the part. And I came home and I was like in hysterics for like five days. I just, you know, I, I didn't get the part year and a half later, I'm doing Fiddler on the roof with Nick, Dante in New Jersey. And somebody leaves the second workshop and Nick brings up my name because there's a job all of a sudden to cover, to be in the opening and to cover a couple of parts next, bring up my name. And Michael Bennett says, wait a minute. I know her. I know she's an actress and she's a singer. Can she dance?3 (1h 5m 52s):So I showed up the next morning and I danced for 10 minutes and I got the job. I mean, I think, wow. Yeah. That's a great story.2 (1h 6m 1s):No. So that means you didn't have to participate in3 (1h 6m 4s):Callbacks or nothing. Oh, I started that day. I mean, honestly, it was Fiddler on the roof, you know what, I don't remember whether, how it went. Cause we were already in performance tour or something, you know, I, I it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember, but I know that this particular story is the absolute truth. That's fantastic. That2 (1h 6m 27s):Was it a hit right away3 (1h 6m 29s):Chorus line. Well, it wasn't, we were in previews. I'm no, we weren't even previous the second workshop, which means it was still being figured out. And when I came to the first rehearsal and sat and watched what was going on, I could not believe what I was seeing because the truth of what was happening on stage and the way it was being built was astounding. It was absolutely astounding because something about it was so bizarre. Oh. And also, also Marvin Hamlisch was the rehearsal pianist on Minnie's boys.3 (1h 7m 10s):Wow. So I knew him a little bit, not well, you know, but he was the rehearsal pianist that nobody would listen to a show about the Marx brothers, Marvin would say, wait, this is the Marx brothers. You got to have a naked girl running out of the orchestra pit. You gotta, you gotta, and of course, nobody would listen to him. Wait a minute, just turn this off, stop, stop, turn off. Sorry. So I couldn't get over what I was seeing. And I, I knew from the beginning, of course, I think most of us did that. Something very, very unique was going on and it was always changing. Like Donna McKechnie came in late at the audition, all dressed up in like a fur thing.3 (1h 7m 56s):And it was like, I'm sorry, I'm late. I'm sorry. I'm late. And then Zach says, would you put on dance clothes? And she said, no, no, wait a minute. Anyway, you couldn't help. But know sort of, you just kind of put,2 (1h 8m 8s):I mean, I remember seeing it when I was a kid and not, not being able to relate as an actor, but now that I think back, it just must've felt so gratifying to be seen for all of the, you know, because like we w the Joe Montana episode, we3 (1h 8m 28s):Haven't listened to yet, but I'm looking forward to2 (1h 8m 30s):It here today. But he was saying, I love3 (1h 8m 33s):Him2 (1h 8m 34s):For you. You were saying that when he won the Tony and everybody would say, well, it's like to win the Tony, what's it? Like he said, it's like, you won the lottery, but you been buying tickets for 15 years. You know, that's the part of acting that people now, I think it's a pretty common knowledge that it's really difficult to be an actor, but I don't know how Hmm, how known that was then. And it just, must've been so gratifying for all of those people. I mean, who are living in their real life? The story of that musical. Yeah.3 (1h 9m 9s):I think that that's true. And also, I mean, it really did come out of people's experiences. Those stories are so, so to be part of something like that, and down at the public theater, which of course it was a vol place to be, you know, you, you knew that Meryl Streep was walking down the hallway and you knew that. I mean, talk about confidence. I mean, I don't know if you've read her new book, no book about her. No, it's worth the time I listened to it. Actually, I didn't read it. I listened to, it's quite wonderful because you see a very confident person who's working on creating who she is.1 (1h 9m 47s):Do you feel, I feel like you have a really strong sense of confidence about yourself too. Where did that come from? Would you agree? First of all, that you have, it sounds like you had some comps, some real chutzpah as a youngster and maybe now as well. Where'd that come from3 (1h 10m 5s):Beats me. I have it now because I, I, I, I've had a lot of, a lot of experience. And I, I think that, that, I, I think I know a lot about this, but I don't know that I had it. The trick was to have this kind of confidence when it really matters. Yes. And I think I had it, like if I was in an off-Broadway show, I could say, I don't think that's good enough. Could you restage this blah, blah, blah. Or if I'm in North Carolina, I'm not, I think we need to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But when it comes down to the real nitty gritty of standing up for yourself, when it really, really matters, boy, that's harder than it looks.3 (1h 10m 51s):You know, even things like, I mean, my character, when I eventually took over the role of Miralis, which I under, you know, I was we've covered all these parts. There were nine of us. We sang in the little booth in the wings. We had microphones and little headsets. And the coolest part of all was Jerry Schoenfeld, who was the chairman of the Schubert organization would bring any visiting dignitary who was visiting the city that he was showing around his theaters. He would bring them into our little booth. And then we would watch the show from stage left in our little booth while we're singing, give me the ball, give him the ball. Cause half the dancers on the stage, cause stop singing because they had a solo coming up.3 (1h 11m 31s):So, you know, singing in a musical is not easy. You know, there's a lot of pressure and you got to hit high notes and you, you know, you just wake up in the middle of the night going torture, torture, and you have to work through that and finally go, fuck it. You know, fuck it. I don't care what I weigh. Fuck it. I don't care if I, if I can't hit the high note, but it, it takes a long time to get there. You know, I see people who do this all the time. I don't know how they live. I don't know how they sleep at night. There's no wonder people like to hire singers who have graduated from programs where they really understand their voice, know how to protect that, which you don't, you know, you have to learn, you have to learn how to really take.3 (1h 12m 24s):That's why, you know, it's wondering about ballet companies now have misuses and we didn't have any of that. You were hanging out there alone. I felt maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I felt. And if I was vulnerable or if I didn't feel well, and I was like, oh, what am I going to do? I can't tell anybo
Intro: Mummies vs. Zombies, cancer doulasLet Me Run This By You: Gina has projection issues. Interview: We talk to Joe Mantegna about Morton College, The Goodman School of Drama, Arthur Lessac, starting his career with HAIR, Dr. Charles McGaw, The Shubert Theater, Morton West High School, André De Shields, Jonathan Banks, Carrie Snodgrass, his close relationship with Bella Itkin, Geraldine Page, Eugenie Leontovich, Patrick Henry, playing Judas in Godspell, Organic Theater, the Grease premiere at Kingston Mines theater, Jack Wallace, Medusa Challenger, Stuart Gordon, the sci-fi play Warp!, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dennis Franz, John Heard, Richard Gilliland, Meshach Taylor, The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit, Esai Morales, Edward James Olmos, Bleacher Bums, Robert Smigel, winning the Tony, Mandy Patinkin, his approach to ensemble acting, breaking news about Criminal Minds!, House of Games, dealing with David Mamet's language, American Buffalo, Sexual Perversity in Chicago, A Life in the Theatre, William H. Macy, going up on his lines on opening night of Glengarry Glen Ross, Lindsay Crause, Nan Cibula-Jenkins, Vincent Gardenia, and why JOE MANTEGNA PREFERS TALKING TO US OVER THE NEW YORK TIMES! Hopefully, next time we'll get into the Jim Clemente of it all, about Southern Italian miners migrating to the American Southwest, and Wait Until Spring Bandini
Intro: Gina is co-hostless and doing her best. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and REVIEW you beautiful Survivors!Interview: SUNY Geneseo, Boston University, Tisch, Juilliard, Playwriting MFAs, competition in writing programs, Marsha Norman, Cry It Out, MAID on Netflix, Hollywood sea changes, female-centered shows, domestic violence, emotional abuse, Hulu, theatre is behind, denial, making mistakes, bad reviews.COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (10s):And I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school2 (12s):Together. We survived it.1 (14s):We didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all2 (21s):Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (34s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina. This week. We are sons' cohost, just one host today. I'm missing my better half BAAs. His boss is actually attending to a friend who got terrible health news this week. And she is in her very boss like way being there for her friend and being the amazing person and friend that she is, which is why everybody loves buzz. Anyway, she'll be back next week if you're not. But today we have, honestly, you guys, this is the interview I have been waiting for.1 (1m 19s):Molly Smith. Metzler is a writer extraordinaire. You may have heard of her latest project made number three on Netflix entering its 28th day online, which has some very special meaning for Netflix that I hope to know more about one day and previous to me being the showrunner for maid, she also worked on shameless and several other successful television shows. And before that she was a playwright. And actually I got to know her work because I directed a play of hers called cry it out.1 (1m 59s):And it was a fantastic experience. And I started communicating with her over email when I was directing. And I was so impressed with the way that she responded to me. I mean, a that she responded to me at all that she was available to me at all. And not something you always get with a playwright and B that she really took her time with her responses and see that her responses ended up being pretty impactful for me, just not necessarily related to the play, but as a person. And I'm a little embarrassed that when I talked to her and I told her the way that she had impacted me, I just started seriously just crying, crying, crying.1 (2m 45s):And I was having this thought like, I, this is not a moment I want to be crying. And I'm generally in life. I, I welcomed here as, as a person who struggles to access their emotions. I do. I welcome a good cry, but it not want to be crying to Molly Smith Metzler in this great interview. But you know, it is what it is. If I'm going to be honest, I have to be honest. I can't be choicy about when I'm being myself. That's my, that's my mantra. Recently you have to be yourself in all the ways. Some of those ways are ugly and disgusting and you know, unsavory, and some of them are fine and some of them are be even beautiful.1 (3m 31s):So I'm working on embracing the, a mess that I am, but I really think you're going to enjoy this interview with Molly. She's fantastic. Even without the always wonderful presidents, presidents presence, maybe she should be president even without the always wonderful presence of BAAs. We still managed to have a great conversation and actually that whole experience of her at the last minute, not being able to do this and this being the first time we're doing this with one host, turns out to have been a good thing for us to go through, to learn that.1 (4m 14s):Yeah, sometimes we're not both going to be available and sometimes when I'm not available, she'll be doing an episode on her own. So, you know, whatever we're growing, changing learning, Hey, we're in 22 countries. Now, if you have a, not a subscribed to this podcast, please do. If you have not rated this podcast or given it a review, please, please, please, please, please, please do it seriously. Please do it, please. I'm begging you. Please do it, but okay. Anyway, here's Molly Smith message.0 (4m 53s):Well,1 (5m 0s):No problem whatsoever. Fortunately, my partner is Jen. Her very good friend just got diagnosed with cancer yesterday and she's with her right now helping. So she's not going to be able to join us. This is actually the first time we're doing an interview with just me. So we'll see how it goes.3 (5m 23s):Yeah,1 (5m 24s):It is. And she just, she has a lot of experience with, with cancer. So she's sort of like the first people, first person people call, which is like,3 (5m 38s):Yeah,1 (5m 38s):Exactly, exactly. But anyway, congratulations, Molly Smith. Metso you survived theater school and you're going to have to clarify for me because it looks like you went to four schools, but you didn't go to four theater schools. Did you?3 (5m 52s):I went to four schools. I did. They're not all theater schools, but I went to undergrad, SUNY Geneseo in Western New York and I was an English major. And then I went to Boston university and got a master's in creative writing with a concentration in playwriting. And then I went to Tisch and got an MFA in playwriting dramatic writing. And then I went to Juilliard, which is, you don't really get a degree there. It's called an artist diploma, but it's just finishing school basically.1 (6m 20s):Oh, okay. So the decision to, to do the MFA, were you thinking at that time that you, maybe you were going to be a teacher, I'm always curious about MFA's and writing because you know, if you learned what you needed to know and you know, why not just put yourself out there and be a writer?3 (6m 40s):I think it's very scary to take that jump. The thing about school that I got addicted to is that I'm actually way too social to be a writer. I like being around other writers and every, and every time you get a graduate program, you're with a bunch of writers and you have deadlines and you kind of, you know, it's a really public way to study writing versus alone in your apartment while way to say, you know, and I kept getting academic support to attend the programs. And so that was part of it. I'm not sure I would have gone deep into debt to get all those degrees, but I think giving me aid, I kept going. Yeah.1 (7m 16s):Okay, fantastic. And did you always know from day one that you, I mean, since you were in high school anyway, that you wanted to be a writer that you wanted to write dramatically?3 (7m 26s):I always loved writing. I had journals and I'm from a very young age. I love to write, but I had a sort of more academic feeling about it. I thought I was going to get a PhD in English and join the academy and be a professor. And I didn't know, I was creative in the sense of dramatic writing until my senior year of college. When I took a playwriting class, I didn't know I was a playwright. And I also didn't know. I was funny. Those two things emerged at the same time. Wow.1 (7m 54s):Oh, so you didn't have experience with theater before then?3 (7m 58s):Well, I grew up a ballerina, so I had a great sense of the stage and the relationship between an audience and someone onstage. I really like, I understood light and the power of an audience, but I, no, I didn't grow up a theater nerd at all. I grew up a nerd nerd, like an actual,1 (8m 18s):So that must've been like just a whole new, exciting world. Did you decide pretty much right away that you were going to be getting your MFA when you discovered that you liked to play with?3 (8m 27s):Yeah, I did. I took this introduction to play right in class and it was one of those things. People talk about this, like in a romantic relationship where you're just like, it changes your whole life. And I didn't have that in a romantic relationship, but I had that with playwriting. One-on-one where, you know, I just, I, it came, I don't want to say easily to me cause it was really easy to play it, but it came, it was like a big release in my life that I arrived at playwriting and loved doing it. And it's like a big jigsaw and you can stay up all night doing it. And I knew from the very first, basically from the first act of a play that I wrote that it's what I wanted to do. I'm very lucky. It was very clear.1 (9m 5s):Yeah. Yeah. That is really lucky. So we have talked to almost 60 people now, the majority of them have been actors. So we've really delved deep into like everything about being an actor, especially at the age of undergrad and what that's like to be growing up, you know, just growing up and then trying to figure out yourself well enough to be an actor and all the stuff that comes along with that, including, you know, the competitive best with your cohort. But I imagine that's what it, well, I don't want to imagine what it's like, what is it like with your cohort when you're all writers and you're presumably reading each other's work critiquing each other's work, does it get really competitive?3 (9m 55s):I suspect that it can, you know, I feel very lucky cause I have never experienced that directly in a graduate program situation. Part of it is I think I went to really great places where everyone had gotten in was incredibly talented and brought such a unique point of view and voice that none of us were trying to raise the same place. So it was really easy to just support each other. And also it's fun, you know, you're reading it aloud. So if something's in the south, you're trying an accent and it's super bad cause you're a playwright. So I found it, you know, I became close with the other writers and I mean, I'm married. One of them, I call him my husband, he and I were in the same graduate program at Tisch. And there is something beautiful about meeting someone in a writing workshop because you're just sort of naked.3 (10m 41s):It's all, you know, I imagine it's like, I understand my actors fall in love too. It's like, you're just so vulnerable and you know, each other in a deep way. But my experience has been that writers are pretty, pretty darn supportive of each other. And if you're not, you kind of don't fit in, like if you're a jerk, if you're competitive jerk, like you're not meant to be a playwright, playwrights need to love people. Cause that's what we do, you know? Yeah.1 (11m 1s):Yeah. That's a very good point. Actually, we talked to CISA Hutchinson yesterday and basically said, yeah, isn't she awesome?3 (11m 8s):She's in a beautiful inside and out like just, but yeah.1 (11m 12s):Yeah. She, and she echoed the same thing in what you're saying. So I guess we're going to stop asking this question about competition. It's just that it's so much of a part of like the act. And I think it's part of just how the program is structured. I mean, you're literally up for the same parts against each other and they PO posted on a wall and everybody shows up to3 (11m 35s):Absolutely. And you know, I was at Juilliard where they still cut people. You know, that system has changed a little bit, but I was at the, the version of Juilliard that was structured to drop 10% of the class out. And I feel like you don't get, I don't know. I learned a lot about that cause they cut playwrights as well. And I feel like that doesn't, that doesn't bring forth good creative work from anybody that pressure of, you know, is Sally going to get cut instead of me that's that's, that's not good skills. I don't think1 (12m 5s):It's true. And at the same time, like a lot of the people who were cut from our program went on to have better careers than the majority of us. So it's just like not a lot of rhyme or reason to it.3 (12m 15s):It's like SNL. Yeah. I mean, yes. It's not a predictor. You got it. Right.1 (12m 20s):Exactly. Okay. So you graduated or you've finally finished school with Julliard after doing it for, for a number of years then what happened next? You were, you were married or you're in a relationship and w how did, how do two writers figure out what their next steps are going to be when school's over?3 (12m 40s):Well, I don't know how to writers in general would do, but I can tell you how Colin and I did it, which is that we we've never been competitive because we write really different plays. Like I am talking to, you know, especially as a playwright, my, my work tends to, I mean, I've written Boulevard, comedy. It's like, I really like to laugh. My husband's play is everyone's on meth and they're an Appalachian. It's like, we are, we are really young and yang. And, but I think being, I really recommend being married to, or spending your life with another writer, if you are a writer because they get it and they get you in like a deep, deep way. So if you have to stay up to four o'clock in the morning, cause you're inspired and you have to finish the scene, you know, there's, there's just a, there's no jealousy about that.3 (13m 25s):There's an acceptance. And our, it really, I think I often say, I don't think I'd be a playwright. Certainly won't be any of the things that I am a mother, you know, like everything is because it's all. And I, I had someone who believed in me more than I believed in myself and at points that is everything because, you know, your play opens in New York, you get just the worst reviews in the world and you take, you know, you'd take to the bed and you don't think you're ever going to write again. And it's so important who you decided to spend your life with because, you know, con only saw me as a writer first and foremost. And you know, it's like at the same goes for him. So we, yeah, but just technically do we have money? You know, we lived in a apartment in Brooklyn that we got to kind of like a hookup.3 (14m 9s):My husband was, he managed the bar downstairs, so he knew the guy. And so we got this apartment that we could actually afford, but we both worked full time waiting tables and bartending. And then if I get into the O'Neil, for instance, he would do extra bartending support me being at the O'Neil. And you know, he went up to LA for a few months and did a bunch of meetings and screenwriting stuff. And I supported him with the Juilliard money. Like we just have always worked it out. And for the last handful of years, when we finally don't have to, we can both be working in. It's great.1 (14m 39s):Yeah. That's nice that, by the way, that makes so much sense about the difference in your writing because in watching made, you know, I remember getting to the end of the first episode that he wrote and not, not having known throughout the episode that he wrote it and being like, wow, this is really, really different than Molly's writing. And of course it, it was his, and I kind of tend towards that darker stuff too. So yeah. And by the way, the series is fantastic. It is so good. And how you were having such a moment, you're getting great reviews. People are loving. I saw even today, it's number three on Netflix. How are you doing with success? Because people assume that it's all great, but I'm guessing it's not.1 (15m 23s):And I'm guessing it's kind of scary too.3 (15m 27s):Oh, well this is all pretty, just great. You know, like I think there's probably two things that are tricky about it, which I'll tell you in a second, but the fact is, it's just, it's great. Especially because it's made, you know, made is the closest to play writing. I've done for the screen. I see the show as 10 individual plays and it's really just about cleaning and feelings. It's the most character driven thing I've seen on TV in a long time. There's no murder. There's no cool accents. We're not in Hawaii. It's just about one woman's cleaning and feelings. And every time we turned in an episode, I thought Netflix would call and be like, you know, this is too weird.3 (16m 9s):Like the couch can't eat her. That's just too weird, you know, but they let me make this like, you know, artistic, I think like they're beautiful thing. And I didn't really believe that they were going to air it. And then I didn't really believe that people were going, gonna watch it. And so the fact that the fact that it is exactly what I wanted it to be and people love it. It's very, I don't really, I think it's really exciting just as a writer, it's exciting. It's like, oh, maybe we can return to doing harder things on the screen and on the stage again, you know, I think audiences weren't deterred by the fact that it was difficult, you know, they leaned in. And so I feel like it's really, it's mostly just fantastic.3 (16m 49s):I am surprised that people love it this much, but no, I'm just, I'm so proud of it. So it feels great. That's all there is. Do it.1 (16m 57s):What were the, you said there you'll tell me about the two things that have been challenging.3 (17m 1s):Yes, it is challenging. I, and I know you'll relate to this, but coming up in the theater, there are so many of us that, that are just working hard and waiting tables and waiting for a break. And that was me as well. And you want to help every single one of those people and you want to help every single one of those people whose cousin is also in LA. So like, that's the part that's really hard for me is that I can't, I can't do for everyone. And I want to, and especially theater people, like if you, if someone sends me a cold email that the subject is like a MF playwright, like I read it and then I, you know, I, I can't help it.3 (17m 42s):So that's a little hard cause I want to be good to everyone. And, and can't so that's, that's hard for me. And the other thing that's just hard is, you know, I spend my life in sweatpants and now suddenly have to do a bunch of stuff where I look, I have to look very, you know, Like, you know, writers or writers were writers for a reason. And so, so suddenly I have to like I to buy lipstick. And so that part of it is a little being articulate. Like next to Margot, Robbie is very difficult for me, but1 (18m 14s):I didn't realize until just today that she was the producer. So she's, she's the person who optioned the book.3 (18m 20s):So she and John Wells got the book together. John Wells is a very famous producer. He did west wing ER, and shameless, which is how I know him. I worked in my last four seasons of shameless is a writer on the show. So when he and Margo got the book, LA had just done cry it out, it was cried out, was up like, like had just closed when they got the book and it's a play about moms. And I think they were like, oh, we know a person who writes about moms and they handed me the book. It was so kismet.1 (18m 49s):Wow. That's fantastic. And, but you had to, I mean, I read the book too. You had to create a whole narrative. That's not in the book. So how does that, I'm curious about that process and how it works. Is it that you kind of sit down as the show runner and hatch a basic idea that you, that you then have some writers help you with or do you have to outline all of the stories and everybody else just writes them? Or how does it work?3 (19m 20s):Well, it's a, it's a little bit different with every project. Oh, I'm with a story like made, you know, whenever the memoir I learned so much, like it was, it's really an educational tool and I didn't want to sacrifice any of that. On the other hand, when you go and sit down with your husband or wife and Saturday night to watch Netflix, you don't want to lecture and you don't want to like TV, shouldn't taste like TV, shouldn't taste like broccoli, right. It should taste like it should be a sneak attack. Kind of like my plate is like, I like to sneak people into learning something. So I knew kind of off the bat that that made was an incredible engine, the memoir, and that I wanted all the takeaway to be the same. But I also knew that we were going to have to create a lot of story to do that.3 (20m 1s):So to answer your question, when I first said I would do the book and when we were taking out and pitching it to Netflix, pitching it to HBO, you know, all the places I would have to say, this is what I'm going to do. You know, we're gonna, we're going to do 10 episodes. Her mom's going to be a huge character. Her dad's got a huge character. We're going to really build up. Sean. We're going to get to know some of the people in the houses we're going to get to know Regina, she's an invented character, but this is how she'll structure in the plot. And you really have to know the nuts and bolts of what you're going to do. And the tone of it, like it's kinda like giving a 45 minute presentation on what the show will be. And then hopefully someone like Netflix is like, okay, great. Here's, here's a green light and get your writer's room. So then you hire a handful.3 (20m 42s):If you're lucky, you know, I could, I didn't have any, no one told me what to do. I got to hire whoever I wanted. And I hired only four writers, three of whom are playwrights, three of whom. I'm sure. You know, cause it's Colin, Becca bronzer, Marcus Garley so really accomplished playwrights. And then Michelle, Denise Jackson, who is not a playwright, but should be like, she's an honorary playwright, you know? And so w and then the five of us sit down and we take what I've said, you know, about the show, the 45 minute presentation, and we flush it out. What are we doing in every episode? What does this look like? And that, that process in the writer's room is the closest, you'll get to a table read in the theater, you know, where you're just at the table, you're reading that play.3 (21m 24s):And then you talk about it for, you know, nine days. That's a writer's room is that every day. So it's very, very, very cool experience and everyone's sharing secrets and, and we disagree sometimes and we do puzzles and there's a lot of talk about lunch.1 (21m 43s):That's what everybody says.3 (21m 47s):But also what was cool that mean is that these five, these four writers and me, the five of us, we all really connected to different things in the memoir. And we also, all of us come from all of us can relate to the memoir in different ways. And so you get five different perspectives on something. And I think, you know, Becca brown center did so much of the writing of Regina, and I think she could really connect to Regina. And, you know, that character would not feel quite as beautifully drawn if Becca weren't in the writers room. Like, so, so much of it is it's a dinner party. And the result of that dinner party is character. You know? So it's really, it's the most important thing you do is those writers.1 (22m 26s):That is okay. So I also just learned that today that you didn't write that Regina monologue, because, and this is about my own projection that when I'm watching it, I'm going, oh my God, this is so similar to Claire, Claire. Is that the name of the character and cry it out. That lives up high, up on the hill.3 (22m 45s):Oh, Adrian. Adrian.1 (22m 47s):Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I was thinking, I was thinking, it sounded like an Adrian, my likes. So that's fascinating that, that,3 (22m 53s):Well, let me explain one further thing, which is, so that's how the show gets written. And yes, Becca brown said, I wrote that monologue, but the other thing that the show runner does is it is my job to then go through all 10 episodes and make sure it sounds like one person wrote them. And, and so the showroom, so you kind of divide the writing in the room and then all funnels back to me and I rewrite it or fix things. Or sometimes, you know, sometimes you're doing a major rewrite sometimes you're just like with Regina monologue, it was so beautiful. You know, we, we had to cut a couple of things for production, but like, it's, it's back as work. And, but it's, that's what TV writing is. It's like, there'll be stuff that Becca wrote in episode seven that she didn't write, or, you know, like TV is very collaborative and then it all funnels through the showrunner who does a pass to make sure it's, it's up to the standard that I want.3 (23m 44s):It's totally what I want. You know, it is, it is a writing job as a group, and then it is ultimately one person's writing job it's book. Does that make sense?1 (23m 51s):Yeah, it does. And thank you so much for answering that question because I have always wondered. And also even on television shows that have, have a different director, every episode, I'm always thinking, how are they keeping true to the tone, but not now, now I understand it. Well, I have so many things to ask you. I want to talk to you about just one thing is that you have said that you love writing about class, which is a big part of made and your, and your place. But, so I want to talk a little bit about that, but I also kind of want to talk maybe first about the thing that you said you were surprised that people like to made, and I've heard a lot of female writers express, something like that.1 (24m 36s):I'm surprised. And maybe people just say it in a way as, as you know, not, not trying to try to be humble. Right. Okay. But I believe that you are surprised by it because it does seem like a kind of recent thing that the universe is allowing us to tell women's stories and having them at the forefront. I mean, it seems really pretty recent. And so are you, do you feel like this is you're part of a big sea change in terms of what's being represented on screen?3 (25m 7s):You know, absolutely. I was talking to Netflix yesterday and they said last year it was Bridgford, you know, these are a lot of things, but they were saying last year, people, the surprise was everyone loved Britain and love Queens gambit. And this year one loves squid game and loves made, which cracks me up. But, but they think to be in the same sentence as Queens gambit as the limited series. I mean, I think that's so exciting as a female writer, because she was an alcoholic kind of like piece of crap who was amazing at chess and went on this like beautiful arc that was not traditionally feminine. It was usually that's a man, like that's usually a male going through that and were riveted by his addiction and his dysfunction and made his, you know, I think we're continuing what Queens gambit did as well.3 (25m 50s):Like it's, you know, Alex has a lot of things, but she's not a woman. She is a character going through an arc and she makes a ton of mistakes and she, you know, is a product of where she comes from. And that is enough to carry a show. And I feel like that is it you're right. It's so recent. And I therefore assumed it would be treated like a, you know, like a niche, you know, maybe 500,000 people will watch it kind of like, cause we don't show up for those shows, but all of a sudden we really show up for those shows and we want to see a multidimensional and rich and layered woman at the story of her own dance story. It's really like exciting.3 (26m 31s):It's exciting.1 (26m 33s):That's what I think about stuff like this. I just imagine, you know, the people who are traditionally in charge of these things, I just mentioned it, but I imagine a bunch of guys sitting around being like, can you imagine people really want to hear about these dang? I mean, I feel like it must be a surprise to, to sort of the old guard that, you know, because of course everything does have to be motivated about what's going to be a return on your investment. And that, that that's understandable. It's I'm not saying anybody's bad for that, but it is curious to me that there was just this, there was an assumption that if you made a female centered show, nobody would want to watch it.1 (27m 16s):Except for every time they make a female centered, anything people want to watch it. Why is this keep being a surprise?3 (27m 24s):I think it's going to stopping a surprise pretty soon because this cracked me up. But my friend was doing a pitch yesterday at Hulu. And I guess like the conversation kind of organically came up with like, well, what's our main, you know, like what's the, you know, the producer was in it, but like, you know, people are starting to look for the, the queen scam, but you know, trying to look for the female, you know, the unconventional sort of what's the would be a surprising female story. We're starting to like, not only are we starting to have it at the table, that the market is the, market's starting to recognize that we're going to get eyes on the screen and it's, you know, I shouldn't be so surprised by made.1 (28m 5s):Right. Right. And it helps that we have people like Margot, Robbie and Reese Witherspoon and females who are having more of a say about what gets produced, you know, with what, what books get optioned and then what gets produced.3 (28m 17s):Absolutely. And, and more and more women are taking those jobs and taking those positions. And it's a good, it's a sea change. I also dare say, I think TV and film has ahead of it than theater. I have to say, I think1 (28m 29s):Girl, that's another thing I was going to say. Cause you had a quote in something I read theater is behind theater is so behind and this is, unfortunately it came as a surprise to me. Like when I woke up to the fact that theater is so behind, it was sad and it also doesn't make sense. It also, you know, it should be it's, it was 40 years ago. It was the most progressive part of art, I think.3 (28m 55s):Yeah. Well the theater doesn't treat women as, as minority voices and they have, and like that's, what's so crazy is we've, you know, I think we've carved out space for there's so much equality and, and like, it's exciting to see the programming in theaters change. And like it's not just white men anymore. That's all, that's very, very exciting. But heterosexual women stories that mother's stories about our struggles stories about, you know, me and my friends, there's no space for us on the New York stage. There's no space for my friends and I on the New York stage. And I feel like, and then, you know, you don't go up in New York, then you don't go all across the regions.3 (29m 36s):And I think a great example is actually cried out because that had a huge regional presence because I think people are starved for players like that, that are about women and just, you know, and not women on Mars and not, not necessarily, you know, like it just normal women, women having, you know, the Wendy Wasserstein plays of today are not produced in New York. And it's, it's a, it's a huge issue I think.1 (30m 0s):Yeah, yeah, it is. So, okay. So the other thing is that you love to write about class, which I find fascinating. I love to read about it in any case, what is your personal connection to your fascination with that issue?3 (30m 17s):Well, I think I grew a group of the Hudson valley, the daughter of two teachers. So, you know, I, I, I can't relate to made, for instance, in the sense of, I always had food and I always had a certain amount of like structure and S and security, but I, my parents were incredibly well educated and they kind of like my dad went to Cornell and it was sort of something we heard a lot about, even though we didn't kind of grow up in a moneyed area or money to house, there was a sense of, there was a sense of you could scholarship your way into the next strata. And I think that I find that fascinating because it's just not true. I, it's almost impossible.3 (30m 59s):It's almost impossible to change your class in America. And it's, it's, I feel like those walls are getting higher, not lower. And I watch people through everything they have at, at, at those chances to change, you know, change their stripes. And I just think the way we, we work in this country is we it's, we've made that harder and harder. There is no bootstrap narrative there. It does. There's no bootstraps it doesn't, it's not a thing in this country. So I find that fascinating because I felt very jipped. You know, I felt like I worked very, very hard and like I was always getting A's and being sophisticated and like, I couldn't graduate and get a, you know, a little studio in New York and intern at a publishing house.3 (31m 42s):You know, like a lot of my friends who came from money could, and there's just, it's so ingrained in our culture and it makes me mad and it's not, you know, it's not fair. Especially when I had a child and started thinking about cried out and just the way we treat that money directly affects maternity leave in this country too. And like, I can't compete with somebody who has a trust fund, you know, I had to put queer where I could afford her. And it's just bullshit that you can claw your way out of the class that you're born into. It's it's extremely rare. So I love that1 (32m 16s):It's bullshit and it's really dangerous cause it makes people feel so inadequate when they can't, you know, and that, that's also a great scene. I think it's in the first episode. Yeah. It's in the first episode when she goes and she's talking to the social worker and she's saying, so I can't get a job because I don't have a daycare and I can't get daycare cause I don't have a job. So I have to get a dog to prove that I didn't deserve daycare. I mean, it's, it's also3 (32m 40s):Backwards. Yeah. You're at a humongous disadvantage. If you are born into, you know, if you're born into poverty, you're at a humongous disadvantage in this country and it's like getting worse. That's the other thing is it's not, I mean, I have to leave. That's part of why made is, is touching so many people's sense of justice too. It's like, oh yeah, it's getting worse. Like, why aren't we talking about this? It's you know, Alex and I are, are not facing the same problems. And it's just by where I was born and where she was born and you know, you what family, your brand and who dictates so much of your struggle.1 (33m 17s):Yeah. And, and that, that the sort of historical narratives would have you believe that it's, it's the opposite of that and that, and that everybody left England to get away from that. But then yeah, just creative things I think here. So another thing that I heard or read that you said that really took my breath away is you said that when you became a mother, your, you didn't say your resolve for your career. You, the phrase that I that's sticking out to me, as you said, I went from being the secretary of my own company to the CEO. And it just, that just really like hit me in the center of my chest.1 (33m 58s):Can you just say a little bit more about it? What, what you meant by that?3 (34m 3s):Sure. I think that we'll probably like probably like many women when they become moms. I, I was frustrated that I had, I had this thing that I was good at, that I had studied for so many years that I've given so much time and love to my playwriting career and that it did not love me back in the sense that I could not afford to take core to a music class, you know? And it made me very, it made me very frustrated that, you know, I, I had devoted my, my self to this, this field that I had a passive relationship with. Like I was waiting for someone to call and tell me they were going to do a reading or, you know, or I was waiting for my career to start.3 (34m 50s):And I think what happened when I had, when I had Cora was I, I wanted to provide for her. And I also wanted to, I wanted to show her that you could be tough and you could be an active participant in your career like that. I didn't have to wait for it to happen. And so part of it was, I was, I just kind of said the things we all want to say out loud as a women, but I actually said them, which was like, Hey agents, what the F I am funny and talented. I want to work in TV. I want to take a music class with my daughter. What do I have to do to do that? And I you'd be shocked. I think how freeing and wonderful it is to just stand up for yourself and to make demands. And, you know, and I wanted to, I wanted to take an expensive music class with my daughter and I wanted to have a career.3 (35m 32s):And I was like, I'm not going to wait for it to happen because I know if someone gives me a chance I'm going to do, I'm going to go far in this field. Like, cause I don't know. Does that make sense? So I kind of like, wait, I said, waiting for the phone to ring and started making the calls.1 (35m 45s):Yeah. And also what I'm hearing is you stopped just blindly participating in the myth that everything can only work a certain way, which I feel like is something that we can all relate. I mean, it's something that boss and I talk a lot on this podcast about like just making so many assumptions about what, what we're definitely not entitled to have and what we're, you know, let's definitely for other people and not for us without ever once actually saying that out loud or asking for what we want. And actually yesterday chiefs have said the exact same thing. She said she, she was trying to be humble and say it's because she doesn't know how the system works. So she didn't know, she couldn't ask which you know. Okay. Maybe, but it's very inspiring to hear that.1 (36m 29s):Now you could just decide what you want to do with your life and your career. You could decide that you want to have a work-life balance and then have it.3 (36m 37s):Yeah. And you know, I think actors have this too. We are always waiting for the phone to ring. And at a certain point, I think that's a really tough way to be a mom because you can't count on anything and you're spread so thin. And I'm just kinda like, no, I'm going to generate, I'm going to generate this. And I can't really define the moment, but I will say for me it was emotional. I, I stopped, I stopped letting theater. Tell me how to feel about myself a little bit theater. I mean, it's a little bit like the terrible boyfriend that you just can't leave. Right. Like I would be like, I would be like, here's my new play. Do you love it? And they'd be like, maybe, you know, maybe we'll do a reading of it.3 (37m 19s):And I'd be like, let's my full heart. And I love you. And then, you know, and I finally like kind of broke up with that boyfriend in the sense that like, no, I'm really good at this. And like, I'm going to go where the love is. And I'm going to figure out how to pay my bills doing this and maybe you'll miss me and come back. You know, you know, it's hard as an artist, you can't let someone else tell you what your worth is. And theater is very conducive to that.1 (37m 40s):Yeah. Oh my God. That's so true. And that's, by the way, like a big part of the character of Alex, she does that too. I mean, she, with not that much to leverage did still find a way to just be very active about asking for what she wants. And I can see what you're saying about how, how having a kid makes that very clear. Whereas maybe you don't feel so I'm entitled to ask for what you want when it's just you, but when you know that it's somebody else who's depending on you, then it's that it doesn't feel like you're asking for yourself. It feels like you're asking for your family.3 (38m 15s):Yeah. And you see injustice with fresh eyes when you have a child, you know, because I don't know. I feel, I feel like certainly in my case, I w I would, I was so focused on being a good collaborator, being polite, being like, you know, you know, being grateful for the breadcrumbs that I got, you know, in my life. And I mean, honestly, it was a professional change, but it was primarily an emotional change. I was like, yeah, I don't want breadcrumbs anymore because my daughter deserves better than breadcrumbs. And so it just sort of filtered across all the fields, but yeah, another had does that.1 (38m 50s):Yeah, it does. It does well. So I don't know if I ever told you this, the reason I was looking through our emails earlier, as I wanted to see if I, I was sure I had said this thing to you, that I can not find in my email. So I'm going to say it to you now, which is that when I was directing your play, I wrote to you just about some things that I wondered if we could change. And you gave me the most thoughtful responses, which was, is to say you didn't invalidate that I was asking you, but you still stood up for what you, for the integrity of the play. I feel like I'm going to cry. I never saw anybody do that before.1 (39m 36s):And it was a really great, I wish I wasn't crying as I started to say this to you, but it was a great thing to, it was a, you were a great role model for me in that moment. And I always appreciate that. So thank you.3 (39m 52s):Oh, Tina, thank you. Well, you know what, thank you for wanting to have a conversation with me about it. Cause like I also think that's the sign of a fantastic director that you let me into your process and your thoughts about it. And I know you did a fantastic job with the play cause I had Scouts in that area who saw it and you know, so whatever you were, whatever you were working with, you artistically, you certainly landed that ship for you. You know, landed that plan beautifully.1 (40m 15s):Thank you. I had, and I had so much fun doing it. So tell me about some of your mentors. We had a nice discussion the other day about the power of mentors and some people go kind of through their whole training and never really feel like they connect with a mentor. Did you have mentors along the way?3 (40m 35s):Yes. I'm very lucky. Actually. I'm very lucky. I'm sure most people who go to Julliard and say this, but I, in my case, it's, it's really, really true that Marsha Norman was a wonderful mentor to me. I met her at Tisch and Tisha's a funny place because it's a larger program. You know, you don't have that. One-on-one with your professors that you do with Juilliard where there's just a handful of you, but, and I didn't stand out at Tisch. I sort of, my husband was, you know, my husband's sort of the star over player at, in class and I hadn't found my voice and I was sort of, I just wasn't like the star student and she was, she saw something in me and I don't think she saw like a Polish playwright yet, but she saw, I think there's just, she saw a way to help me find my voice.3 (41m 18s):And she hired me as her assistant coming out of that MFA program. And I always think like it was sort of charity work because she didn't need an assistant. She was so on top of her life. But I think she wanted to let me hang out with her and see how she conducted her business. So she was working on law and criminal intent. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was on set with her. I get to do research with her, for the scripts. She was doing the color purple and I got to go to rehearsal usually just to bring a coffee that I could watch. And it was, you know, she's also a mother and I don't know it was really, it, it was so generous of her because I got, I just got to see that you, what a woman in power looks like and, and a woman on her voice.3 (41m 59s):And she also says no a lot. And I grew to really respect that. Especially later when I became a mom, but you don't F with Marsha. I mean, she'll shut stuff down. She's really, I mean, she's such a generous person here. She did this thing for me, I'm a total stranger, but she's also like she knows her worth. So I was very grateful. It's been those years with her. And then, and then she invited me to Julliard. And then when I was ready really gave me, I mean, Juilliard is so much pressure. And the thing about Julia is you have to know what your voice is to go there. And so it's almost like she was helping me find my voice. And then when I found it gave me this incredible opportunity to go to Julliard. So sh honestly like very, very good to me in such a mentor in a very lucky.3 (42m 41s):And then on the west coast, I've had a wonderful mentor in John Wells because he, he's just one of the most terrific showrunners and producers, but it's funny cause I, everybody knows that that's not a secret in LA, but to work for him as a writer and to be in his writer's room. I learned so much from him about how to empower the people around you. How did it become like, you know, there's so many toxic writing rooms and toxic jobs with my friends, tell me, and it sounds terrible, but everyone at a John Wells show is thrilled to be there and very lucky to have that job. And they know it and like just that there's a way to do things gracefully. So he, and, and then he got this book and handed it to me and gave me my first chance to be a show runner.3 (43m 23s):So I had a, I've been very lucky to have him as a mentor on this coast1 (43m 28s):And the toxic. I've heard a lot of stories too, about toxic writers' rooms. And maybe that's also something that's going to get phased out because like so many of these things, you just, you just need more samples. You need, you know, you need more samples in your dataset so that, you know, I mean, if 99% of everything is run in one certain way, then there's little, there's little chance that it's going to change. But when, when the tide starts to shift, maybe there's a little, few more samples in your dataset that show, well, you can just be a regular nice person and still get the same, you know, get the same job done. That's that's nice to hear.3 (44m 9s):Yeah. Yeah.1 (44m 12s):So dah, dah, dah, oh, one, another favorite line from made is when Alex is talking to her dad about, I think this is, might be at the last episode or near then. And she says, she's trying to tell him that her or her, whatever boyfriend abused her and her, father's not taking it in. And she says, do you hear the words that are coming out of my mouth right now? That was another thing that really hit me because, you know, denial is really not a passive thing. Like you have to work pretty hard at defending your denial on something.1 (44m 56s):And I'm really familiar with saying something that feels, you know, that's a truth for me to people who, I mean, act as if you're, you know, like you're invisible and that turns out to be a really shaping force in a lot of people's lives. And you know, so anyway, I'm just curious about your own relationship and experience with denial.3 (45m 22s):Well, I love that you love that moment because I remember with that scene feeling like something was missing. And I remember, you know, I know a lot of it denial, but what I really know a lot about is gaslighting and denial is a form of gaslighting where you're just like, I'm, I'm not going to acknowledge a reality. And you know, I learned this tool a few years ago from a fantastic therapist that like, it's okay to just pause and be like, but you actually are hearing me, right? Like this is English. And you understand these words like, and I've, I've actually tried that tool in my life and steal at someone, not, not like, not be able to confirm that they're hearing the words.3 (46m 3s):And so it was when I, and then when I put it in the scene that it felt like, oh, that's what was missing is just this, like, how far are you going to take this denial? And he still can't write. I mean, I think Billy might nod, but he doesn't say anything. Like, I think gaslighting in denial and emotional abuse, I mean, I could write 40 Marsha was about this. I am fascinated by it. And the thing we don't talk about it as a form of abuse. And we should, it's like weirdly I think as well as violent, if not more violent than physical abuse, because you don't realize it's happening like Alex in the pilot, she doesn't know she's a victim of abuse and she is such an, a victim of abuse, which I hope we demonstrate in the show that you have to go on that ride with her, but you know, it's so corrosive and there's nothing worse than having someone tell you what what's real is not real day after day, year after year.3 (46m 56s):Like this is an area that I know a lot about I sent you do to1 (47m 1s):Yes. And actually my kind of where I put my energy in terms of recovery is with codependency and denial and codependency, or just, I mean, that's, that's the it's denial is the perfume of codependency. It's just, it's everywhere. And what I think really gets triggered for people who want to keep pretending, like they hear the words you're saying is because I find this in my family, like the way that denial really shows up in my family is if I acknowledge a truth, that's too true. I think what happens to other people is they feel that if they even just validate that that's my truth, that that somehow means that they have to acknowledge it for their own selves and their own lives.1 (47m 51s):And that's really like the forbidden thing that, you know, that people who don't want to go there can't do, they can't, it's like the Pandora's box. If I start to look at, you know, if I acknowledge that, what you're saying about this is true, then I can't help, but start to acknowledge all of the other things as well.3 (48m 9s):I think what you just said is, is brilliant because I think people think denial is just inactive, but it's aggressive. It's so aggressive. It's really violent, you know, intense denial that gaslighting of like, I will not even acknowledge. I hear the words you're saying it's, it's, it's so active. It's I mean, it's so aggressive. What you said was really, really smart really. Right. Yeah. And I love the people. I love the people are flipping out about Hank with me. Like how does he just sit there and let Sean treat her like that? And like, you know, and that's what I mean, I think she's mistreated throughout the show, but I think what Hank does to her in that moment with the denial is, is I think a lot of us recognize that.1 (48m 49s):Yeah. And I really appreciate the w the way you rolled out this whole concept of emotional abuse, because even I who feel like I've spent so much time working on this stuff, and I was a therapist, even I was found myself being like, oh, he didn't hit her. You know, she left, he didn't hit her. Hmm. I really had to check that in myself. And I was because one of the things that denial, I mean, in the absence of act, you know, saying you're wrong or whatever, and it's just, I don't hear you. You just assume that what you're saying, isn't valid, it's it becomes this thing that you do to yourself where you, you know, if somebody invalidates you enough, you start to invalidate yourself.1 (49m 38s):So I loved how you rolled that out in the series that are people talking to you a lot about that.3 (49m 45s):Yes they are. And how about in episode eight, where you are like, oh, Sean's changed and he's turned around and he's going to be a carpenter, you know? And like you it's in you, you find yourself. Or at least I did. And I assume it seems like audiences to just kind of like, oh, maybe this is a happy, love story. Like maybe he like, you know, and, and that, you know, that is all by calculated manipulative writing that I like my secret agenda with me. It was, you know, and I claimed 10 hours cause I wanted, I wanted the audience to go on the actual experience of that cycle and to get thrown off by it and caught up in it like, oh my gosh, I'm back, I'm back. And I'm in the pit, how did this happen?3 (50m 26s):And I wanted to show you how it happened. I also was like, I dare you to wash made and tell me that that's not domestic violence because it is emotional abuse is violent. It, what happens to her is violent. So that was like my secret mustache totally goal with the show.1 (50m 43s):Yeah, no, it, it hit, it totally played. And, and I think the other thing that's great about that is that when we have seen depictions of violence against women in film, I mean the best we could entail television, the best we could have hoped for is some woman who's abused who isn't a total idiot, because mostly what it is, how it's portrayed is some dumb person who doesn't, who's too dumb to know she's being abused. So therefore she goes back and also the various, the subtle, wow. I don't know if it's settled, but the, the subplot with the first roommate that she has when she goes to the, not roommate, but you know, the woman who lives in the shelter with her who introduces her to, you know, how, how to do life there.1 (51m 31s):I love I, that was heartbreaking her story of, because it is that you, you, you, yes, in the audience were saying, yeah, maybe sh maybe Sean is a good guy. Maybe, maybe all he really needed was to sober up and become the good person he was meant to team.3 (51m 50s):Yep. I mean, it's funny. I did an interview yesterday where this gentleman was like, is Sean okay? Like, does he end up okay. In life? And, and I, and I found myself sort of being like, I've never really thought of that cause he, you know, he's fictional, but I, I don't know. I'm not sure that that guy is ever going to make it out of that trailer, you know? And I'm not sure that he's going to get sober and be a great dad. I'm not. But I do feel like when he says at the end, I'm going to get sober and come see her all the time. I don't believe him. And, and I think that's his TV show, right? That's his cycle that he has to break. But my goal was to show that he's caught in his own cycle too.3 (52m 29s):Like, we are all kind of caught in our own cycles and it's so hard to break, you know, an Alex barely makes it out. And most women and men in her situation, the show ends in episode eight under the, in the pit. Most people don't get out of the pit and she is so smart and driven that she can, but she's the exception and not, she's a great exception. Yeah.1 (52m 53s):Yeah. Yeah. So we're, I want to be honoring your time. I told you we're only going to talk for an hour, but, but before we begin to wrap up, I just want to ask you, so since we've spent a lot of time talking about your success, let's hear about some of your failures. What have been some mistakes that you've made, maybe, maybe you maybe even like when you, when you made first, the transition from playwriting to writing and Hollywood, what were some of the mistakes that you made along the way?3 (53m 23s):Well, I, I think the, one of the great learning opportunities I've had as a human being, not just as a writer, was my first big production as a playwright in New York. And it was, you know, I was barely out of school and I felt I'm just so grateful for the opportunity. You know, it was a big production with stars in it and fancy director and everyone there was fancy except me and the process I have to say kind of went that way, like, like, huh, there's this element of it's actually, it's when I play close up space is about a dad and a daughter. It's about grief and pain and there's a lot of magical realism and I'm sure it's far from the perfect play, but it got obliterated by the press and squarely blamed on me the most inexperienced person in the production.3 (54m 11s):But what I learned from it is that I knew things about it were wrong. I knew immediately things about the production were wrong and I didn't use my voice. I didn't, you know, what happened with the play is my fault. I didn't, I didn't ring the bell. I didn't say, well, I didn't refuse the rewrites. Like I, you know, and everybody there had good intentions. Everybody wants to have a hit play, but people saw it a different way than I did. And, and it was wonderful people. There was no reason why I couldn't have said, Hey, yo, this isn't what I wrote. And I really, it was a crushing blow to have that play go so badly and to, to get such her, I mean, if you went for that and just Google it, it's the worst reviews. It's like, one of the, one of the reviews was like, is she sleeping with the director?3 (54m 53s):Like, why did she even get this product? You know, it's just straight on misogyny. I mean, it was, it was so mean, but what it taught me was I, since that moment I've really listened to my gut. And if my gut says this isn't right, I say it, and I don't worry about how it's going to come across. It sounds like I did that with you, but I have my sense of like, no, and, and it, and I learned the hard way in that moment that nothing is more important than your own gut. And so, and, you know, kind of re I had like a, kind of, a lot of momentum as a playwright really stop that momentum. It sent me into a deep depression. I mean, the, I lost so much because I didn't listen to my voice.3 (55m 36s):So that was my big theater lesson, which is applied to everything. But the big mistake I've made in TV to film, I've actually been really, really, really lucky and worked with fantastic people. But I think that stuff can go sideways here. It's a, it's a funny town, you know, and I've worked with wonderful people, but once in a while, you know, something's happening and then it just disappears. And so, you know, like that, you're gonna, you know, I, right before me and I came so close to having another job that I really wanted and was passionate about, it would have been my first time kosher running something, show running something, and, you know, we were all but celebrating.3 (56m 21s):And then the whole thing fell apart because the actress wanted her friend to write it and like bull, bull, crap. Like that happens all the time in LA. And so it's a hard time. It's a hard lesson the first time, you know, where I was like, oh, people don't, you know, like my agent sent me champagne. Like it was, it was happening. And then it very suddenly wasn't. And so I think it made me realize that don't pop the champagne until the contract is signed1 (56m 51s):And put that on a t-shirt.3 (56m 57s):That was a tough lesson to learn though, because I was like, wait, oh my God. Like, I went from like sky high to, and you know, nobody really, nobody apart, it was just very sobering. So,1 (57m 7s):And writing is so personal that it's really hard not to take both the criticisms to heart and then the, the opposite of the criticisms. And, you know, it's, it's hard not to make it. It's hard to stop making it about personal validation. You know, when, when somebody likes or doesn't like your stuff. Yeah. That's the journey I'm on right now. Not making it about, you know, like if somebody didn't like my play doesn't mean they don't, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they like me.3 (57m 40s):Yeah. You know, that's, I'm glad you're learning that because I also can tell you, I just staffed a writing room for the first time. And so that experience was really opening because I read unbelievably fantastic things and I didn't meet with them because, you know, you're designing a dinner party with five people and you kind of have to, and like you, the truth is, like I said, I passed on a lot of wonderful writers whose work I freaking loved. And like, can't wait to read for the next thing and have mentioned and recommended to other people. And that's part of it is like, you don't know how people are experiencing your work and the fans that you're building along the way. And I think we quickly assume the worst. Right? I know I do. But like, but the fact is like, you don't, you don't know how close you got it.3 (58m 24s):My guess is you're getting close to stuff and you don't know. And aren't able to know that1 (58m 29s):At the end of the day, the only thing you have control over is whether or not you go back to your computer later that day and just keep writing.3 (58m 36s):Yeah. You got to run, run your own race, which is so hard to do. I mean, listen, it really, really is. But yeah. The only thing you, the only thing you can control is your output true. Which is horrible. I mean, I, I, for the first time, in two years that don't have anyone calling me today to be like, where are the pages? You know? Like, I mean, part of it too is it's, it's helpful when you have deadlines and pressure. That's why I love to grad school because I'm the second Monday of October, I was reading my play out loud. And so I had to go right. You know, make sure I write it. So I also feel like that's, without that, it's also, that's a hard thing about feeling like you're not moving forward too, is that lack of deadlines.3 (59m 19s):But again, you don't, you don't, you don't know how far your work is going and how who's reading it and what it will lead to the next time. And I mean, I've gotten, I've gotten rejected on so many things that have led to a meeting later, you know, like so many things that, so many jobs I wanted that I didn't get, but then later someone's like, oh, we read her for that. We should meet her for this. And I didn't get that job either, but, but it's like, it's just funny. So yeah,1 (59m 48s):Like leaving a whole blanket of your career and you never know, you know, w where this, where the threads are going to end up.3 (59m 55s):Absolutely. And every time I get bummed out, which is a lot, because I'm a writer, all writers gets on debt. I, I try to think about and visualize the stack of things. I'm going to write in my life. And when I get terrible notes or when I get clobbered with notes and I feel depressed, I also think about the stack of work that I'm going to do in my life and how this piece that I'm writing right now is just one of them, you know? And that, that's my, that's my real tombstone like that pile, you know?1 (1h 0m 22s):Oh, I love that. What a great image and what a great note to end on.4 (1h 0m 37s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz is in the clear!Let Me Run This By You: secrets, scorched earthInterview: We talk to Chisa Hutchinson about her new film The Subject, Vassar, being a high school English teacher, NYU Tisch, The Lark Play Development Center, New Dramatists, having a sleepover with Tina Howe, She Like Girls, Amerikin at the Alley Theatre, NYT reviews, 101 Reasons Not to Breed, Bad Art Friend, Haagen-Dazs, The Evansville Regional Airport, Three Women on Showtime, Lisa Taddeo, Playwrights as Screenwriters, Marsha Norman, Lynn Nottage, Tony Gerber, Richard Wesley, Stephanie Allain, Di Glazer, having an intentional career.COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT:Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8s):And Jen BosworthGina Pulice (10s):and I'm Gina .Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.Gina Pulice (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?Gina Pulice (33s):You don't have cancer.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (35s):No, I do not have cancer right now. Do not have cancer at this moment. Who knows the next week. Yeah, no, it was, it's been quite a thing. Like I, I, you know, right. My cousin Dalia, who is what become one of my best friends in our adult lives, which is amazing. I never had any family that like, I truly liked as people know, that sounds so terrible, but I know exactly like good friends. And she says, you know, the brain is a problem making machine and it is that's, you know, it's also solves them, but it also creates them.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1m 17s):And look, I'm not saying that that the ch that it wasn't possible that I had cancer, but like all the evidence pointed oh, right. The emotional evidence pointed to I had cancer. Like I made an emotional face based on my past and my parent, my mom's past and my dad's path. And I made a really strong case that I had cancer in my head and look, it's possible. So that's the other thing that is so, so compelling about the human condition. Is that like, and what Dr. Oltman used to say to me, it was like, look, you're not, you're not delusional. You're not psychotic. You're not, so you're not making up things that are like, aliens are going to come down and take you, your fears are based in, in things that have happened to you and other people and people you love.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 6s):So it's not as though this idea, this idea of like, you know, right. It can't happen. You know, like it, I know in my body of, you know, my body of work that I've done in my life, that people die all the time of cancer and get cancer all the time, as we all do, I have a more intimate knowledge is because I lost my mom from it and saw the actual process. But I'm here to say, like, if you're freaking out about things, most of the time they're things that have happened to you or other people. So they're valid freak freakouts. It's just that they don't actually happen to be true all the time.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 47s):So like weird.Gina Pulice (2m 49s):It's almost like you want to say, Thank you brain for protecting me because you know, you you've correctly picked up on the fact that when things are Sort of looking like this, it's, it means something bad, but you can relax now. Right. Because it's not that right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 7s):And it's actually not while I appreciate you brain, you're not always dealing with, with, with what's the reality, the truth. You don't, you don't. Yeah. You don't get an unfortunately brain. You don't get to, you're not a psychic, like you're just not, you have evidence. And then, so, so I had, you know, for, for our listeners, you know, like I had, I've had pain and history of weirdness on my left ovary. And it's really interesting. The cyst that is most, this is so crazy. This is how, this is what the brain does. So I'm like, okay, left side. I'm sure I have cancer on my leftover.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 48s):Like, that's, what's going on. It turns out the right one, the cyst is bigger. I have one on my right. They didn't see me yesterday or two days. And the, and the, the right one is bigger and actually contains more blood and fluid. I feel nothing on my right side. So that is also to goes to show that even if you do have cancer, it could be in a place that I don't. But like, you don't know where it's coming from. So like, even your feelings are wrong, your pain body is wrong. So like, you really don't know. So it was so funny. She was like, yeah, your left side, even though it's more active, there are a lot of simple cysts. So, you know, for this is like a women's health thing. Like people don't do any Reese. I shouldn't say that there's not a ton of research done because it's a woman's issue.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (4m 32s):So it's not like, unless it's breast cancer, like nobody gives a shit about like women's cancers usually. So, cause that that's what, you know, got all the funding. So, so, so cysts grow all the time, all the time and women, they come and they go, those are simple cysts. If you have endometrial cysts or complexes, that is not, they don't come and go. They just stay. So I have several on my left side that come and go one that stays. And one that stays on the right. They don't know what's actually causing the amount of pain, but they think it's probably the left one leaking. The other thing is like, I would have sworn I had a cyst, the size of a grapefruit. If you would've asked me, I would say, it's probably grapefruit size.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 15s):It's that? It's an inch on one of them. That's nothing. Well, I mean, it's not nothing cause the ovaries two inches, but like w it, you just can't always trust what your, what your feelings are. Like, it's valid, you're in pain. But like, you don't know what it looks like until, you know what it looks like. And I think that that's the whole thing I'm coming around to, which is just go to the freaking doctor, please, if you have the resource, even if you don't like find them create, I don't know, like ask somebody, but like, you know, and I've gone to plenty of free clinics and they're not glamorous and they're not exciting, but they, they, they still have an ultrasound machine, you know?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 56s):So like, get, get it, get shit checked out. If you can easier said than done. But if it's an emotional fear based response, that's stopping you and not a resource-based response, you got to work through it and go, even if it is resource-based, there are, you know, there are ways around that. But like, especially if it's, you have all the resources, but there is something internally in you that is going, I don't want to know, believe me, I get it. But you want to know, you really want to know it's the only way through anything is getting the data. It's so annoying, but it's true.Gina Pulice (6m 35s):I agree. 100% with what you're saying, and this is why people love to join cults because the fantasy, the thing that's being promised in a cult is there is a finite number of answers. I, the cult leader have, there is a clear path to the number of steps that you have to take to get, you know, it's, it's everything we wish life would be predictable or seemingly predictable controlled, highly structured, you know, without a concern like to be in a cult is to not be in a process of discovering what happens next.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (7m 24s):Exactly, Exactly. And it's so compelling. It is so comforting to think, oh my gosh, this person and this entity knows everything. I never have to worry again. That's really what we're saying is I never have to worry about anything. Again, the problem is it's just make believe. And you actually do have to worry because the person is usually a sociopath or psychopath and it doesn't actually do the trick. They think, you think it's going to do the trick. And it usually does the trick for a while for people like our guests, Noel was talking about like, it serves a purpose until you start questioning and then you're in real trouble because then it's like, how the fuck do I get out?Gina Pulice (8m 10s):Yeah, exactly. Well, I am very happy that you, I mean, I'm sorry that you're been in pain, but I'm happy. It's not for some worse reasons.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8m 19s):The other thing I have to say that is so interesting that I just wanted to, to, to me anyway, that I wanted to bring up was like, okay, I may not have in the Hollywood right now in the Hollywood industry, a team of people that are like on my side, but I'm S I swear to God, my medical team has, is filling that hole. So I just got an email from my cardiologists. Who said, your, your gynecologist thought you were amazing, loves you. How did it go? Like, that's the kind of messages I get from my, of medical experts. And so I read and I like started crying and I realized like, oh, I'm not getting it from my career team.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 3s):Like, I've talked about getting nasty emails from potential managers and stuff like that, but I am getting it from the medical team. They're like, amazing. They're like, you are the best. We love you. And I like,Gina Pulice (9m 17s):What if they gave awards for being a great patient?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 19s):I would Get something for Shot.Gina Pulice (9m 21s):You would get like a gynie award. I'mJen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 23s):Like the best guy, knee, patient,Gina Pulice (9m 26s):And the, and the, and the statue is just like, you know, the uterus.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 31s):Yeah. I mean, anyway, so that was really interesting to me. Cause I was really touched this morning when she wrote me. I'm like, who, what doctor, what? It's, she's a, she thought you were amazing. I was like, Hey, that's cool. Well, at least somewhat, you know what I mean? Like, I'll take this. It's so funny.Gina Pulice (9m 46s):Well, the truth is you are amazing. And the difference is with between people who know you and people who don't know you, I mean, that's just what it is. Like when people get to know you, not 10 out of 10 people who know Foz agree. She's amazing. It's just, you know, you have to convince people to get in the door. That'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 6s):It?Gina Pulice (10m 7s):Yeah. All right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 9s):I'm with you, my friend. How do you feel about all the post?Gina Pulice (10m 14s):It's just, it goes on. It's done. It's just a saga. Yes, we should.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 22s):We don't have to be explicit, but like you, you,Gina Pulice (10m 24s):I can be explicit because fuck those people,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 27s):Will you left an organizationGina Pulice (10m 28s):It's called Theatre Artists workshop. And I left them because aside from a handful of members and everybody that was on the board, it was one of the more toxic environments I've ever been a part of. And I quit. And I'm the only one who quit effective immediately. Everybody else is staying. Two people are staying on and then everybody else is staying through through 2021. But when I tell you the way that people are responding, we couldn't have crafted it better ourselves. If we said, let's, let's create, like, if we were making this movie and this whole conflict happened, we'd say now what's a way that people could respond.Gina Pulice (11m 17s):That would exactly prove the point of what they were saying toxic in the first place. And two, that the fact that most people are doing that and have zero awareness. So essentially what's happening is that people are reacting to our letter. That goes step-by-step and explains the ways in which we've been abused, right? People are responding to this with a combination of don't take things. So personallyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (11m 46s):Sure. Of course, that's the number one abuser thing to do,Gina Pulice (11m 49s):And just completely invalidating ignoring what we've said about the abuse. They, everybody finds something that's in the letter to take issue with and makes their whole thing about that or, and says nothing of, and by the way, I'm sorry, you were abused. Or, and by the way, you know, and people are saying, thanks, but I'm into this thing recently. I hollow gratitude. Miss me with your hollow gratitude. I don't care. I do not care. I could wallpaper my bathroom with your thank you is right. It's not what I need. I need you to change your behavior.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 28s):Absolutely.Gina Pulice (12m 29s):Forgive me if I said this to you already, but I'm likening it to, you know, when COVID happened and everybody puts a sign in their front yard saying, thank you, frontline workers. Yeah. And they're banging pots and pans at 5:00 PM in New York city. Like, and the frontline workers are going, I don't think I don't need your sign, like get vaccinated and wear your mask. Right. And everybody's like, I know, I know the,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 54s):Without a mask on and like at their concert. Right.Gina Pulice (12m 58s):That's exactly it. That's exactly right. And, and, and I shouldn't be surprised. We all myself included are kind of in a way, programmed to not see our own bad behavior and to not want to take responsibility, but it just goes on anyway. So, but it goes on in a way that I can choose how much I want to engage with.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (13m 18s):And also it's like it to me from the outside. It's so clear that you made the right choice. If this is the response, like they just proved, like you said, they proved the exact point there that's insane. And, and too, and you made the right choice. Like why would you stick around and be beaten down after you've made a stand? And then they continue to try to beat down that doesn't, that's insane if you stayed like that's insane.Gina Pulice (13m 44s):Yeah. Yeah. To give one just chef's kiss example. In our letter, we, we, one of the things that we said was when we tried to introduce our DEI policy, the very first thing we decided to introduce was content warnings. And we did it in the most careful way, like to, to hear about a content warning about something you're going to see presented at the workshop. You have to click down the email. Like you can choose not to see the content warning, right. Because everybody was complaining, it's art and we need to slap people in the face with it, whatever you can choose, whether or not.Gina Pulice (14m 25s):So it's literally like if I, if I'm allergic to peanuts, I'm going to read every nutrition label. Cause I want you to make sure that if I'm not allergic to peanuts, which I'm not, then I don't really need that information. It's no different than that. Right. That alone caused our first member to quit saying if he couldn't use, if he could, he could, if he could. I mean, it wasn't even related really to the content or if he couldn't use the N word, he couldn't theater and in that same evening.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (14m 57s):Bye, bye. See you later. You're not going to make theater. We're all not here. You're not gonna do it here. Thank you.Gina Pulice (15m 4s):Oh yeah. Two of our members who are from marginalized, societal groups got stood up or, you know, spoke that night and said the ways in which they've been marginalized at TAW. And that, I mean, it was crickets, not one single person gave any support. And we had listed that in our, in our letter. So this email we received from one of our members last night opened with I'm a board member of a condo complex. And we recently oversaw a renovation that made our building double in value.Gina Pulice (15m 44s):We, as a board, had to sit and listen to a tenant or what resident, whatever. Talk about the color of the paint in the laundry room for 30 minutes. And he bolds and underlines 30 all caps, 30 minutes. Okay. It goes, it goes along with being on the board and I thought, okay, so you're comparing you pace. Exactly. You're comparing.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (16m 15s):Bye bye, byeGina Pulice (16m 34s):Name and saying it all is because the thing I wanted to run by you this week is about secrets. I am. I'm all the way done with secrets. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not saying like, if you tell me something in confidence, I'm not saying I'm not going to keep that a secret seat. That's not the kind of secret I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kind of secrets where, you know, you know, so I, I have written personal essays that reference my family as personal essays do. And you know, and I'm sure a lot of it has rubbed people the wrong way. I in particular wrote an essay in which I compared somebody in my family to Scott Peterson and, and that person let me know in the creepiest possible way, which is to say this person that, yes, we just happened.Gina Pulice (17m 32s):We are not friends on Facebook. He's not even to my knowledge, this guy has zero social media presence. I receive, I open my phone. There's a notification. So-and-so liked your post. My heart skipped a beat. I mean, it was like my blood turned cold. I went, you had to scroll pretty far down on my timeline to find that post. And it's the only one he liked. Are you kidding me? Your face is exactly your face of surprise. That exactly. Thank you.Gina Pulice (18m 13s):Oh, I really appreciate you validating that. Okay.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 15s):That's so it's because two things you're super intelligent and also we like crime weirdness, but also it's fucking creepy.Gina Pulice (18m 26s):It's fucking creepy. That's weird by the way, about any post, if anybody who I'm not friends with on Facebook likes a post that's way down the feed.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 38s):Well, if that's something you're not friends with on,Gina Pulice (18m 42s):Yeah. The whole thing is creepy. The whole thing is 1000% creepy. So part of the thing that I struggle with in writing personal things is airing the dirty laundry, you know, telling the secrets. And I really do try to tell only the secrets that are mine. I really try not to tell anybody else's secrets, but in general, it's so exhausting to be in this perpetual state of protecting a bunch of people who would never protect.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 16s):There's the key. I mean, like, I think that's the kicker, right? It's like, and I think it speaks to a bigger issue. Like we're all protecting this in these institutional institutions and, and companies and things that are destroying us and we've been projecting them for years. And I think it speaks to why we started the podcast unknowingly is that to protect, we wanted to stop in our way and stop protecting institutions that harmed us whether some are assholes right out some aren't some are, but like institutions harm people. Like I just think that that's the way, right? That's just how it is. It's capitalism, it's democracy, whatever it is, they harm people.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 58s):So I think we're trying to shed some light on that and say, no, we're going to heal from that. And I don't think you can heal from it unless you really process it. And some of that is bringing the secrets into the light and no, and people don't like that.Gina Pulice (20m 12s):People don't like it. And you and I have had many conversations following interviews where we said, do we bleep this person's name? Do we cut this thing out? And with the exception of one person who we interviewed, who then said that they didn't want us to air the interview. Nobody has said, I regret saying that. Can you, and, and when they're here talking, I mean, we've encountered people feel such a freedom and a relief and they have no problem naming names. Right. And so it's been our thing of like, do we protect this person's identity? But the other thing is, here's the, here's the part in the whole dynamic that I'm trying to own for what I do in this, in this situation about the secrets and everything.Gina Pulice (21m 1s):I wrote something personal, I published it on our website. I promoted it on social media. Theoretically. I want everybody in the world to read it, except this one guy. Right? Like that's, that's my logic. There is, it's really flawed, right? Like if you're going to be brave, then you have to be brave. Right. You can't be brave only when it's convenient.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 31s):Right. I totally agree. I mean, I think that, and I think it's really great to have the conversations about like, okay, like who are we bleeping and why? And someone on, you know, on this podcast who we, I don't think we've bleeped, but she gets a lot of bad press as Susan Leigh.Gina Pulice (21m 50s):She really does get a lot of bad press.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 52s):I mean, and, and, and, you know, I'm like, man, should we have been bleeping or out, but,Gina Pulice (21m 59s):But she did it. I mean, it's her, she is the person who should be carrying around the shame for her behavior. Not the people who she harmed the, you know, it's not there. And that's the other thing that we have usually all the way backwards is that we make the people who experienced the pain, shut up about it. Yeah. It to, to protect us. And who did the pain. Yeah. Right.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 25s):Yeah. Just, yeah, it's, it's all backwards. And again, it's like, you know, she works for, she worked for an institution and they, they, you know, they should, she grew upGina Pulice (22m 34s):And a time and she's, and she's probably the victim of a lot of sexism. Like it's only, it's all of a piece, but the fact remains that at, at that time, maybe she's a completely different person now, but the fact remains that at that time, she did and said a lot of really racist thingsJen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 51s):And hurtful and other ways, like, just, I mean, I think racism is hurtful, but like other types of hurtful besides racism, just like weird shit, you know, that hurt people. And I, I mean, it's just their truth. And I think it's actually up to, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a co it's a, it's kind of a complicated issue and yet it's not complicated. It's like, you're right. We're just protecting the people that hurt us all the time. That's like when I got, when I got that very nasty email from, from that manager, my first response was in, this is interesting. My first response was to drag him through Twitter.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (23m 31s):Like I was going to put his name and say, I got this. It was so hurtful. And I feel like as a woman, as a Latina, that to get this email about fucking formatting, when I'm trying to break into the business is the condescending. I wanted to drag him. And then I thought, okay, there's a difference between speaking your truth and dragging someone. I don't know the difference exactly. Like, I don't know where the nuances lie that make them different, but dragging someone in Twitter versus, and I don't blame people for dragging people on Twitter, either like that. I'm not saying like dragging people is wrong.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 12s):I think some people need to be dragged. I mean, we've talked about Louis C K's of the world and the Weinsteins do, who deserves to be dragged, who does it. And that's really what I wrote my pilot about, but like, I just didn't feel, I think every person has to decide if they're going to keep secrets, why, or if they're going to drag someone why, or like put it in on social media, straight up, this person did this. You have to be, I have to be prepared to deal with the full consequences if I do that. And I'm just not willing to deal with the full consequences of dragging this guy on Twitter. I'm just not, I'm just not, I don't feel certain.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 51s):Now there are people where if something happened, I would work it out and I might feel certain to drag their ass. But it was interesting. I think everyone has to decide for themselves where the line is of when I'm going to expose someone to the fullest, et cetera, or an institution to the fullest extent and leave the individual out of it. I don't know.Gina Pulice (25m 12s):Right. Well, and you, and you don't want to do anything. That's gonna harm you. I mean, if you, if you were in a certain place in your life and you did like people dragging that guy would never have hurt you, then you could've, you could've made that decision. Yeah. And I'll also just say for anybody listening, who knows me in real life and, and who've, I've hurt and misbehaved, I invite you not to keep that secret. You know, I, I invite you to drag me if it's something that, I mean, for the thing, for my, for the sins of my past, if anybody is, you know, holding on to that and never has told me, or whatever, like I'd rather hear about it, I'd rather know, and try to make amends and to party so that I I'll feel that I have the right to participate in this, keeping those secrets, telling the truth culture that I really try to, you know, I really try to stay within.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (26m 16s):Right, right. So, wow. I forgot. I was going to say something else about That's a lot like that. I just feel like, yeah, this whole, this whole notion of keeping, keeping it, you know, and they say in program, like you're only as sick as your secrets. And I think it's really true. And I think there's a way of, of working through the secret that won't bring further harm to yourself versus versus versus doing something that exposes you further. You know what I mean? And brings, and bring, could bring more abuse or you have to look at, I mean, you know, like it's like, except when to do so would injure yourself for others.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 3s):But, but, but, but, but dragging is about sort of injuring others in a way. I don't know. It's like really interesting. I don't know,Gina Pulice (27m 11s):You know, that saying, or I think, I don't know if you call it, call it a saying, is it kind, is it truthful? Is it necessary? Well, I know you're supposed to aim for all three. Yeah. To my way of thinking, you really just need two out of a three. It can be truthful and necessary, like talking about Harvey Weinstein. It's not kind, but that's okay. It didn't need to be constant. So yeah. So that's, that's, that's that tends to be my barometer is if it can't be kind, at least it has to be truthful in this. Yes.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 43s):Agreed. Agreed. And I think that's, I think for me the necessary part, it's like, okay, well, can I, can I proceed to function as a, you know, trying healthy human being without doing this? Or do I need to do something about this to proceed and live my life and feel like I'm living in integrity and that I'm, I'm doing the right thing by, by me. And sometimes you just, and, and also also, right. Sometimes people, people get, they get hurt. Yeah. But they also didn't think about that when they were abusing others. SoGina Pulice (28m 21s):Yes. Oh yeah. That's the other thing that came out with this board thing, you know, when we were writing the letter, somebody said, okay, so this is, we acknowledge, this is scorched earth. You know, this is a scorched earth thing, which I'm very, that is how I think about things a lot. I, I tend to think about scorched earth, but I, it occurred to me when she said this, how come nobody's ever worried about skirts, scorching the earth with me, right? How come no one's ever worried about burning a bridge with me? You know, like, yeah. Maybe it is scorched earth. But if you, if your takeaway from what I've said to you is that I'm the asshole.Gina Pulice (29m 4s):That's fine. I don't care. That's completely fine. Go. I wish you well on your journey, right? It wasn't for you. I guess for this letter, it was for me to say to you, I mean, if you didn't want to receive it, that's your business. Right?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (29m 22s):Well, Today on the podcast we're talking with CISA Hutchinson. She says a graduate from Vassar and NYU, and she's a teacher, she's a playwright. She writes for television and we found our conversation with her extremely focusing and motivating. So please enjoy our conversation with CISA Hutchinson. Hi, good morning. Good. Where are you? Which coast are you on? Are you on the east coast?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (30m 2s):Okay.Gina Pulice (30m 3s):I guess what, I just had to pause, watching to come talk to you, your movie, your amazing movie. Yes. Oh my God. I'm in the scene with the mother right now and it's so good. It's so good.Chisa Hutchinson (30m 23s):Yeah. That's that? Yeah. You know, it's so funny because when I wrote, I wrote it as a play initially, and I was, when I was writing that part, I was like, this is why people don't like theater, just two people talking like whatever, we're going to be full board. But like, I don't know. Everybody seems to like really be engaged by that part. So,Gina Pulice (30m 51s):Oh no. Yeah. There's nothing boring about this movie. It's called the subject. Everybody go check it out. But before I forget, she's the Hutchinson. Congratulations. You survived hotter school. You survived theater school to fancy theater school.Chisa Hutchinson (31m 7s):Well, yeah, sort of. Okay. So I went to Vassar college for undergrad. Yeah. Which was interesting because I knew it was a good theater program, but I didn't know that it was mostly geared toward writers and directors. Because when I, when I sent him down, there was like literally one dramatic writing class taught by a screenwriter who was like, oh yeah, I guess you can write plays if you want. Really like, learned much about the craft of playwriting while I was there.Chisa Hutchinson (31m 46s):But, but I had a good time and I did a lot of independent studies in the English department and the Africana studies department, just to like, you know, learn about plays theater, you know, scripts plays that weren't, you know, Shakespeare or insulin or checkoff or whatever. Right. So that was undergrad. And then I worked for a few years as a high school English teacher.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (32m 21s):My mom was a high school English teacher and it was, it was intense. Where did you teach?Chisa Hutchinson (32m 28s):I taught at Westtown school, which is a Quaker boarding school in Pennsylvania, like 45 minutes Southwest of Philadelphia. And then I taught at Sage hill school in Southern California, orange county, California, which was like a whole other planet. Okay. Like I felt like a whole ass in orange county, California and teaching there. Yeah.Gina Pulice (32m 60s):I feel like the, the cultural translation from the east coast to orange county might be one of the biggest riffs chasms that there is there. It's quiet.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 13s):I was just going to say, you're the first guests that we've had on. And we've had many that I've been like really sort of, no, not that I'm not excited to talk to everybody else, but your, your, I was telling Gina before this, that your bio is the greatest written bio I've ever read in my life. So I told her I'm the queen of queries. Like I write a bad-ass query letter, like, but you are the baddest ass of bios. Like, I, I love that stuff because for me they're usually so down boring, but you're, and same with queries.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 54s):Like, I, I love to write a good query cause it's kind of a challenge how that bio is. You write it like in a second. I mean, I know it's a little thing, but it's a really important thing to me becauseChisa Hutchinson (34m 7s):So long ago I don't even remember, but I just wanted to, I was like, oh, well, you know, there's going to be plenty of chance to send the short, dry, you know, you know, like formal bio. So I was like, I want my website to be, you know, I went to bio on my website to be, you know, to give a sense of like who I am as a person.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 30s):I feel like I, I was like, I with, and it's an, it's the words are economic. It's not like, it's like this long thing, but it's really short. And it's also so compelling. Anyway, I just, I just that's like my just, just, yeah, I have from zoneGina Pulice (34m 50s):It's on her website, everybody, chisahutchinson.com. You can check it out for yourself. It's veryJen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 54s):Funny. Very good.Gina Pulice (34m 56s):Okay. So by the time you got to T I mean, so what I understand your grad school choice was rather intentional to be about play writing and you picked maybe probably the, one of the best schools did that. Oh. Or maybe you disagree,Chisa Hutchinson (35m 16s):Funny story about the no, no, I loved it. I knew I absolutely loved NYU. I'd probably learn more in one semester there than I did four years. That I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking smack about vets. I'm really not trying to like smack talk Vassar. It's just, it's really, I think they're doing better now. They've hired a playwright that I really loved to teach playwriting there. So that's, I think progressJen Bosworth-Ramirez (35m 47s):We've had the thing where it's like, I I'm coming to the, the sort of realization that a lot of undergrads are kind of like, well, we'll give it a shot. We don't have a awesome, we're going to really do something good luck. And then you'll go to grad school and really learn. I mean, that's how I kind of feel. So I know you're not talkingChisa Hutchinson (36m 8s):Because I really had a wonderful time at the ribs of great, the great place. And I learned through experience, just not so much through the cracks. And then NYU, it was literally the only grad school I applied to. And that was because I had, I had a workshop production. It was my very first workshop production of a play ever at a professional theater company or not really the Lark play development center, which has since Closed.Chisa Hutchinson (36m 49s):And it makes me so sad because that police was like American idol for playwrights. And like, it was the place people knew to like go to the Lark, the Lark and new dramas are like the two places that everybody knows like, okay, you want to find the next half play. Right. And go to this place. Right. So I had my very first production of a, of a full length play at the Lark and they hooked me up. Oh, hardcore. I w at me, it was so many different people who I still work with to this day. Like, I, I love the LARC. Like everyone I met at the Lark, I have kept and I keep working with them. But the game changer was they set me up with Tina Howe as a mentor.Gina Pulice (37m 33s):Yeah, I did. I did one of her plays and theater school.Chisa Hutchinson (37m 38s):That woman is a genius as a wacky genius. Okay. First of all, she's like, I think back then she had to be in her late sixties, early seventies. I don't even know. Nobody knows how old you, how so? No. She is like this waspy, like proper wasp of a woman of a certain age, you know, who apparently responded like exuberantly to my, to my plate. She liked girls, which, which is about like, again, you know, teenage inner city lesbians, you know, like, so it was really weird to have her be like this, but what she responded to was like, I have like surreal elements in that play.Chisa Hutchinson (38m 25s):And she was, she knows what she's all about. That surreal stuff. So they sent me up with her. They were like, you should have dinner with her after, you know, your, your presentation. And I was like, yeah, yeah, cool. So I had dinner with Tina, how well we just like talked and talked and talked to this little gas so late that I was like, oh shit. Like, I'm about to miss my last train back to New Jersey. And she was like, oh, oh no, you will do no such thing. You will not, you are not taking the train back this late. You are coming home with me. And I was like, oh, okay. So you know how so I had a Latina, how, when we woke up and she made me breakfast and she's just talking, she's had you, do you have an MFA?Chisa Hutchinson (39m 11s):You need any of that say, and I was like, no. She was like, well, you have to not have to apply to grad programs. If you're going to apply, you should apply to some people at NYU. My best friend works at NYU and used to reply. And I'm going to write you a letter of recommendation and you're going to go to LA. So literally I put together like a found out that the down deadline for the application was literally the next day. So I application together in a day and like hand delivered it to the department of dramatic writing and I, and cross my fingers and was just like, all right, well, I'll tell me to apply.Chisa Hutchinson (39m 55s):So I applied and I got in, I got in with a full, a full ride and yeah, I had just an amazing, I love my professors there. They were so dope. And what they do is they make you write. So I concentrated in playwriting, which was a really smart move apparently, because playwrights are like the hot shit in Hollywood right now. But yeah, I concentrated and play writing, but they make you write in other mediums also, as you know, it's mandatory. You have to also take TV writing. You have to also take screenwriting. Yeah. And that is, turns out is a very smart way to structure your Germany.Chisa Hutchinson (40m 39s):We're all working everywhere now. You know, like if there's no, there's so much, you know, cross fertilization happening.Gina Pulice (40m 50s):Yeah. That's fantastic. So we only know about the playwriting program at, I think one other school. So at Tisch, did you, did you write stuff? They then got produced there by the students? I mean, like acting playsChisa Hutchinson (41m 6s):Is the only thing that they don't, because they're not what they try to do. They do have like one collaboration class where they bring in, they try to bring in as many professionals as possible because they want like the one sort of student variable, like the one factor, you know, to be student and everything else to be professionals. So they would bring in professional directors and professional actors for it. Wasn't yeah, it was, it was a little bizarre because it felt like you were just siloed from these people that you should be probably, you know, it'd be making connections with.Chisa Hutchinson (41m 49s):So it was a little ad in that respect, but I see, I get the philosophy behind it. Like I get that. They're like, we want to minimize the minimize or maximize the professionalism.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 4s):Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's just sounds like a really like super bad-ass program that I have a friend, a playwright friend named Michael Allen Harris. I don't know. He just graduated from loved it, loved it, loved it. And now, and I have this thing of going to a lot of grad schools now I'm like, I have a master's in counseling psych. I started a screenwriting program then dropped out because they were assholes. And then I'm like, now I'm like NYU grad school. I, you know, but anyway, I, I love this idea that you okay. Cause I'm, I'm in LA right now. And there's a lot of people that are like, and playwrights are hot shit in Hollywood.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 47s):Right. But I love the idea that you didn't go into playwriting to try to be a hot shit in Hollywood, unless you did. And I'm just making thatChisa Hutchinson (42m 57s):Like live theater, it just fits a medium that just affords you so much nuance. And like, there's just so many idiosyncrasies, you know, like you can do things. And I literally teach a class at the university of Delaware. I call it writing in 3d. It's just a playwriting class. But what I do is I make them do small, you know, short writing assignments. And each assignment is focused on some aspect. Some, some topics, some themes, some something, right. Some element that just takes on a whole other texture when it's live.Chisa Hutchinson (43m 40s):So like the first assignment that they get is like nudity. Right. Which c'mon, you know, like it's D you know, we see cities all day long on the screen, like, and it's no, no big. Right. But like in a live theater, that's a whole other thing. Right? Like nudity, you suddenly, you're like forced to really think about the significance of the nudity when it's like right there in your face. Right. So nudity, silence, silence in a theater is different from silence anywhere else, you know, like you can't really do silence and I'm novel, you know, it's like, well, it's a blank page. Right.Chisa Hutchinson (44m 19s):So with audience participation, like you literally can't do that anywhere else. You know? So yeah. Each assignment, I really try to get my students thinking the possibilities that, you know, they can take advantage of those in, in theater that they can't really get anywhere else.Gina Pulice (44m 41s):You're just making me think of something that makes me so sad, which is that a lot of us do approach just anything performance-related through theater, because it is so singularly special. And then as you have this line in your bio, you write these plays that have more than five characters and deal with themes of race. So they're probably never going to get produced. And actually the way, the way I met you was at the national new play network in Sacramento. I mean, I met you like passing hello, where they did a staged reading of your play America, which looks amazing. Has that ever been produced?Chisa Hutchinson (45m 19s):That is literally, it has been postponed twice pandemic postpartum, but it's where I'm going to start rehearsing for that in January, at alley theater in Houston.Gina Pulice (45m 30s):Fantastic. I'm really happy to hear that. So, you know, so theater gives us all of these things that we can't find elsewhere, and then there's zero money spent on it so that people like you only end up getting to do, you know, bring their brilliance, not only, but you get paid by bringing your brilliance to film and television, it's just kind of sad. You know, that there's, it's not a viable option to really make your living as a playwright.Chisa Hutchinson (46m 0s):It is. It is. I I'm not, if I knew how to fix it. Right. I, I would, but you know, I think we just need to just do the best we can. And every day I wake up feeling great. I mean, even on a, even on a shitty day, and I've had some pretty shitty days, especially like this past week or so, where, I mean just where you just feel gutted and, you know, come out and, or whatever. And you're like, just want to crawl into a cave. But then I'm like, literally like sitting in a house that you bought with, wow, you're doing, you're doing will pay.Chisa Hutchinson (46m 49s):And the fact that I get to do what I like in whatever capacity really, right. Like, okay, theater doesn't pay me enough to live on, but please screen, you know, screen writing or I get to teach. Like I get to talk to sit around every week, just telling young people, like I hear is why words are cool. And then they get all excited. And then they like present their work in class and then they get all, like, they get attached to each other's characters and things know like when they're reading over beating and workshop and it just, it just like tickles my soul.Chisa Hutchinson (47m 35s):So like, why, you know, why, why would I be sad about really anything?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (47m 43s):Can I ask you a question about the gutted nearness of, so did you say I, you sort of brushed over it, but like the governess of, did you say reviews like of your films? Okay. Okay. So here's my question. Here's my question. Because you're someone that's working in an industry that I am like, oh my God. You know, because I'm me, I'm like, they've got it made, you know, whatever it's garbage. I know. But when a review, cause we talk a lot about, on this podcast about resilience or, and I'm obsessed with the idea of resilience or bouncing back, whatever you want to call it. What happens inside you that you're able to say, bitch, keep going. Like, what is that moment for you?Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (48m 24s):Because I'm, I had a week where a asshole said some asshole you things as they do. And then I had to like regroup and keep on with my, my situation. So what did for you, how do you do that as someone, you know, how do you do it?Chisa Hutchinson (48m 40s):Okay. So this is a thing that comes with time. This writing shit, like it's a war of attrition is, is really, really only the people who stick around are the ones who get to succeed on any level really. Right. So if you stick around long enough, right. If you just don't let, when someone kicks you in the face, right. You just kind of have to be like, get up and keep walking. What, what, what did it for me? I think it was like the third or fourth, like mixed review that I got in the times for a play prediction.Chisa Hutchinson (49m 28s):And, and then I thought, bitch, this is, this is your fourth review. And the TA, one of them was like really good, you know, like of all the reviews that I've gotten and I'm picking on the times, because of course that's the one that everybody sees. Right. But like whenever, you know, the reviews come out and some of them are like really fuses and wonderful and that's like fuel and it's, it's awesome. They're usually on the, like really rinky-dink like platforms with like 300 followers. Right. But, but you're like, oh, somebody gets it.Chisa Hutchinson (50m 8s):You know, like somebody, somebody out there, guess what I'm trying to do too bad. Those somebodies they're not the ones with the giant platforms, but it's okay. And so you read those and you absorb them, but then like if you just sort of take a step back and like, I, you know, like I didn't realize, you know, these reviews aren't actually keeping me from getting work. I mean, it would certainly help to have a great review right. In some, you know, in the, whatever the Washington post, whatever, right. Like whatever, big, whatever big platform, it would certainly help to have a great review, but I'm still working.Chisa Hutchinson (50m 49s):Like I still get work, even if, you know, I haven't been anointed by the New York times. Right. Like, so it really is just a matter of like hanging in there. Like, I, I hate to sayJen Bosworth-Ramirez (51m 2s):I love that because, because that is something that I, and we have control over is hanging in there versus having control over whether, whoever at whatever paper or whatever, whatever loves me. I have no control over that, but I can control whether I hang in there or whether it's worth it to hang in there or not. So that's actually something you can actually do. So I like that. It's like, I can do thatChisa Hutchinson (51m 26s):And I'll work on the next thing. Just be working on the next, keep writing happens that when I find that I like get over bad routes, the fastest when I'm already in the middle of the next project. Sure. So like right now I'm working at, so you mentioned the subject just got released this past week, last, last week. Oh my God. How's that week. We just had our premiere party a week ago already, but yeah. And the reviews have been mixed, you know, some people like really get it. And some people I'm like, you are completely missing the point. Like you're completely missing the point and it's very frustrating, but I don't even really have time to be too concerned about it because I'm like, I'm literally in a writer's room for a Hulu show right now.Chisa Hutchinson (52m 16s):So I'm really, I'm, I'm my revision actually is due today after like, I'm going to have to like, you know, I was right in that. I have like 10 more pages that I need to trim, but yeah, I, I can't, I don't, I don't have time to while I can just, you just gotta be like all up in the next thing, all that.Gina Pulice (52m 35s):And it does make sense that review, I mean, reviews are, people have feel all kinds of artists have feelings about reviews, but it really makes sense that a writer would have a hard time, you know, just for example, ignoring reviews because your life is about words and that's what that's, what's happening in a review is the people are assembling words to, to decide, you know, pass judgment on whether or not you have something interesting to say,Chisa Hutchinson (53m 3s):When you write about something personal or when you write about something about which you're passionate, that it feels, so it feels like they just took a knife to your heart, you know? Like it feels so like, yeah, let me just swallow my pride with a chaser of napalm, you know, just like BR like, it just burns you on the inside and you, you just, it feels like you're never going to get over it, but you will. You do, you do the next thing and yeah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (53m 35s):Really. I mean, ultimately it's like, you know, fuck you and goodbye and good luck and onward, but I love the idea of moving. I always be, cause people used to tell me like, just keep writing and I'd be like, go fuck yourself because I don't want to keep writing. I want someone to like my last project not, but it's true. Like if I can shut up and, and, and stop feeling, sorry for myself, I, I look, it feels good to feel sorry for myself for a little bit. But I feel like if I can actually do something rather than ruminate and create more work, then the steam comes out of it. Just because simply there's not enough space in my brain to keep thinking about what Joe Schmo said in his last email.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 21s):So it is that it's just like focus on the writing, you know, sounds so easy to do, but it's actually, for me, a self preservation thing to keep writing, instead of ruminating on all the things that went wrong with the last, the last project or whatever, you know?Chisa Hutchinson (54m 38s):Yeah. And I'm very lucky also to be doing this in a time where there's Instagram and TikTok because I have like, literally I have like a little collection of videos specifically that I just, that no matter what the hell is going on, like they always make me,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 59s):I love that made me laugh minus the stone guy shoveling. Have you seen, okay, so this is an old one, but it, if anyone out there has, there's a guy who's trying to shovel snow and he cannot get it together. And he keeps falling and it's sort of a metaphor for my life and he just keeps it at the end. He just goes, fuck it. And show that shovel. And there's someone filming his neighbors filming, cracking up, but quietly not trying to make fun, but like in a way that like, man, we have all been there. The dude cannot shovel to save his life. And I was like that. I relate to that shit because it's just like, you're just shoveling and falling in your own shit and falling and someone's bike going way to go.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (55m 44s):I feel you. So with the Tik-toks, I, I, that's a really good thing to do. You keep them for when you feel bad, you watch them or just whenever.Chisa Hutchinson (55m 52s):And then when I'm just like to set for words, you know, I just need to watch a video of big fluffy dogs ripping down the stairs. No, with the voiceover that's like curse. It just, oh my God. It gets everyJen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 7s):Time,Chisa Hutchinson (56m 9s):Every timeJen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 11s):I love it, I want to see it. I'm gonna look it up. It's a dog cursing like a voiceover.Chisa Hutchinson (56m 16s):I really wish. Yeah. And he's like this, there are three, three big fluffy fucking dog. You just want to like squeeze them. They're so fucking big and fluffy, you know? And they're like, there are these concrete cores outdoors right there, like three or four stairs. And they're running along the top, the top stair, I'm about to make their way down. But because the coloring and the, you know, how shallow, because of the way the stairs are built on the color, you don't, if you have no depth perception, right. Which those dogs clear would be not.Chisa Hutchinson (56m 57s):It's hard to know that it's not just like grown, we'll go running along the stairs. And one of them that one in the front is like, oh, I can't wait to the, and then I can't wait to get to the, and then he goes Like tumbles down the,Gina Pulice (57m 18s):Okay, we're going to have to try to link to that in our show notes. So people can check it out.Chisa Hutchinson (57m 23s):I will, we send that to you because it cracks me up.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (57m 29s):I'm obsessed. And you're making me see why fails are so important. Like, I love fail videos. I watch news bloopers all day long because what it is is people trying their best to be sincere and be like, I take themselves so serious. I'm going to do my job. And then all of a sudden, the chair falls out and they're like still trying to do their goddamn job. And they're like, and anyway, I'm the news. And you're like, I love it because I feel like that 90% of my fucking life, I feel like I'm like, I could still do this while my legs are being taken out from under me. So anyway, Tik Toks and fails. Yes. They're worth something. They're really good.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (58m 10s):I'm sorry.Gina Pulice (58m 12s):No, no, no. That's okay. No, but that's how it was. No, but it's, I mean, it's germane it's on the topic of survival is we all have ways of surviving the everyday banalities and everyday horrors of life. So you, right before we talked, started talking to you for the podcast, we always do another section of just us talking before. And we were talking about secrets and we were talking about, you know, especially as it pertains to your profession and personal writing, the dangerous territory that you start navigating when it gets into the territory of like family secrets. And I don't mean, you know, so-and-so whatever cheated on his wife.Gina Pulice (58m 57s):I just mean maybe more like a thematic secret where we're protecting this abusive behavior. We're protecting this abusive personality. And I recently in my life made a decision to stop doing that in, in, in multiple arenas, but specifically in one and my awakening about it is all about, I'm not holding anybody else's secrets anymore. It's not me. If you don't want me, if you don't like that about me, then you probably need to reevaluate your relationship with me. I'm done holding on to other people's secrets and actually your movie touches on that a lot.Gina Pulice (59m 42s):And I'm just curious about your own relationship professionally speaking to secrets and how you navigate that test, the difference between say or the potential chasm between saying something that's really true for you and saying something that could somehow hurt you in the future.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 7s):Wow. That's that sounds serious. That's a serious question. I'm kind of with you as far as like, like my husband, for example, he knows he has known from year one when we first started dating that. Like, if it's happening to you while I know you, like, if it's happening between us, like that should it's part like, like that's like, that's, that's fatter. Like I'm gonna, I will use that. Like as an I don't care if it really sort of is a little unschooled, do you?Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 47s):Oh, okay. So for example, I wrote, I wrote a book called 101 reasons to not breed. Yes. Lemon. One of the reasons is like kids, if you miss me, like, they're just messy. It's shit. Right. So what I did was I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I'm very clear on this. Right. But I do have a husband who just doesn't even see mess anymore. Doesn't realize when he's like leaving stuff for, so I literally just spent a good few months just taking pictures and text messages that he left around her.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 1m 33s):I mean, ridiculous fucking message. Like socks on the kitchen, counter, dirty socks on the kitchen. I'm like, fuck. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will take a picture of the toilet that you did not cross blew it up. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will put, I will literally put your shit on. I will put your shit out there for the world. See if you don't start cleaning up after yourself. Right. Like, so that's okay. Like that's a kind of a funny, you know, version of, of, of that. Right. But there are some other things, there are other things, I mean, in the same book, I actually talk about my mother and my biological mother who gave me away when I was three.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 19s):But like before that, I mean, some of my earliest memories are of her like beating the shit out of me, you know, her and my stepdad beating the crap out of me at three, you know? So yeah. I don't, I don't, I have never had qualms about putting I'm like, you didn't have qualms about putting your fist to my, my little face. Right. So I'm not going to have qualms about like, putting that out there and trying to turn it into a positive, in case there's someone else out there who is feeling some type of way about the fact that their mother abandoned them or whatever, you know, like, I just want to let you know, like, I'm connecting with you, right. You are not alone.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 59s):Right. And you know, you find your family where you can and that's sort of the message of the book is that you don't actually have to like grow grass root, right. Or, or even honor the fact that someone grew you right. In order to, to have family into it and to feel that that familial love. So that's what the book is, is supposed to doGina Pulice (1h 3m 28s):Truett fruit. Oh crap. Okay.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 32s):I love it. So yeah, I, I will, I don't, there's really no such thing as a secret withGina Pulice (1h 3m 40s):You don't have a, a quandary about it. You just go straight .Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 47s):I do. I will let people know though, because I don't want to, you don't want to be bad art friend. Right? LikeGina Pulice (1h 3m 56s):Our friends on this podcast,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 58s):I will let you know. I'm like, Hey look, because I left my husband and I'm like, look, I'm putting, do you see these pictures? You know, you see all these shit, you left around the house. Yeah. I took pictures of all of it and it's going in the book. Right. Like he knows, you know, his step, I just, or I'll ask if there's something like, I'm like, ah, hi, how do you feel about me too? Because here's why I'm thinking it will serve the story really well. Or here's why I think it'll help other people connect with it. Or, you know what I mean? Like, I I'm, I'm very clear on like, why I need a particular thing why I need to expose dirty laundry. Right, right, right.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 39s):So, and as long as I can voice that, like most folks are okay with it. Well, what really cracks me up is when the people don't even recognize themselves in yourGina Pulice (1h 4m 49s):Oh, right. They'll or they'll, they'll tell, they'll tell you the character that they know you meant to be them. And it's not, it's like an admirable character and that's not who you areChisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 60s):Now that ain't too.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 2s):I have a question as it relates to like, and I told you to, before this, I was going to ask you this. So I sent him a letter to someone, a query, and I said like, I'm a Latina, I'm a middle aged woman. I'm getting into television bubble. Anyway, I got a horrific, crazy response. And my initial response was to drag the motherfucker on Twitter, but I didn't do it. What, what do you think about, I don't even know if drags the right word out, whatever it is. It was a terrible situation that I felt. And my first response was, I'm going to get this motherfucker. I did not do it. I did not do it. But what do you feel about people that are go, go on social media or groups or whatever.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 44s):I just, what are your thoughts on saying on, on, on doing that? Cause people are doing it a lot, you know? And, and I don't, I don't necessarily Gina and I talked about like, I'm not sure it's a terrible thing. I just, it wasn't right for me to do in that moment also, becauseChisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 1s):It's not a terrible thing, but it's not a great, I mean, it's not very everyone. Like, I, I don't really do it so much because I feel like it's giving them too much power or it's, it's that thing of like, okay, yeah. Dwell, dwell on it for five minutes and then move on like that, because that's, that's really how you can get back at those motherfuckers, right. Is to just like go on with your life and be happy and, you know, find joy elsewhere. Right? Like that's and, you know, to, to dignify their, their fuckery was, you know, you are strongly worded Facebook posts.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 47s):Right. Is what is it doing? You know? I mean, would you feel better? It might make you feel better just to kind of like, get it out there. It also might help you connect with, you know, other people who have experienced a similar thing. Right. And, you know, maybe they were feeling isolated or alone and they're in their failure or in their, whatever it is. Right. So, I mean, I'm not gonna say it doesn't have its uses. Right. But as far as like, is it getting back at that personJen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 7m 18s):And also, right.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 7m 22s):I really I'm just, so this is a lesson that I'm really just now getting around to like learning in a, in a sort of visceral way. Is that like nobody cares? No, I literally just today was, well that's right. Post, because I saw on IMD be the subject. There are a couple of, and it's really just a couple, like, there are a couple of really awful, I mean, Pete, just users who were just like, you know, clearly expecting it to be a comedy because Jason business owner or something, Make movies fun again, you know? And I was just like, oh dude.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 3s):And they're the ones who, who will take the time to like post over review or post it's their, I can't even call them props because they would have to be thinking I would have to have brain. Right. But I did, like, I went on Facebook, like the closest I'll come is like, I went on Facebook and was like, Hey, y'all alert if you enjoy the movie, like, please rate it. Please post a review because these guys like their opinions, shouldn't be the stand in for everybody. Else's right. And that's, that's really about as close as I'll come. But even that I'm like, I was torn about doing that because I'm like, doesn't even, does it even matter?Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 47s):Like,Gina Pulice (1h 8m 48s):And it gets back to this whole thing about reviews because I saw your post and it's specifically men over 45 or something like that. And I thought, yeah, but who else is writing these things, but men over 45, like I'm guilty of loving something and then not writing it down anywhere that I love it because it's, so it's such an, it has become such an important part of art making, like how are people receiving it? And is it getting enough views? And is it getting enough, you know, clicks. And to me it's always just like the person who ha, who wants to take their time when it's not positive to tell you that you put your heart and soul into something and they didn't care for it.Gina Pulice (1h 9m 31s):And I don't understand the impulse, actually.Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 9m 34s):This is the biggest demographic of voters, by the way. I think too, like I I'm just saying like, these are people that like really when they feel something, they feel really entitled to just like trash it. Or I think the, the, maybe the rest of us are so busy surviving. We don't write nice reviews. I don't know. But I started to write good reviews because I realized that for people, for people in that are trying to make projects, whether it's in the arts or not that it actually matters that the rest of us speak up because those voices, like you're saying don't need to be the loudest. Cause they're not, they're not the only voices out there. There's this is people that take the time to click away. Same with the guy who ran the time to use his time to write me a nasty,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 10m 17s):You know, like they're, they, they have a sense of self-importance that I think the rest of us not. And I'm just like, ah,Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 10m 27s):Right, right. So I think the way to counter it is for the rest of us to start for me anyway. Cause I'm, I'm guilty too, of like not when something is great, not saying like, Hey, I love this product. Even if it's a candle, like we have a friend that makes candles, you know, and Gina, you posted about it. That matters. That's that? It's like, I got to take time out of my day, even though I'm busy hustling and all this stuff to like support the things that I do, like so that the loud, loud ass, old white dudes, don't just get to have the whole market cornered on reviews, like come on or whatever. So I think,Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 7s):You know, to bark the thing that I like out of existence, right? Like, because that is a thing that can happen too, when there's a perception that like, oh, well nobody wants this. Right. But the only people who have been, you know, it'sJen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 11m 22s):And it's like, oh, this movie, this movie, or this project or whatever didn't do well, no, no, it actually did fine. It was just that the people that were screaming the loudest and felt entitled to scream, you know, people, we think that we give them importance. So it's like, we have to take back the, the importance of like, you know, the other voices it's just goes about like other voices in the room that aren't, aren't being heard.Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 45s):People kno
Intro: Gina ordered her theatre school transcriptsLet Me Run This By You: knowing when to let go, moments of clarityInterview: We talk to Ammar Daraiseh about being an MFA, homesickness, Joe Slowik and Bella Itkin, Joe Mantegna, type casting, being a middle eastern actor, Sweet Smell of Success, film noir. www.ammardaraiseh.com - there is where you can watch Ammar's acting reel and my short films he produced www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina . We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I1 (45s):Half expected you to have red hair this morning.2 (49s):Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.1 (59s):It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,2 (1m 13s):The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.2 (2m 1s):But guess what my lowest grade was in1 (2m 8s):Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,2 (2m 13s):My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think1 (2m 40s):That's a great observation by him.2 (2m 44s):See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.1 (3m 7s):It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript2 (3m 21s):And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,1 (3m 33s):Anybody else want to have a transcript? You2 (3m 36s):Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your1 (3m 42s):I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.1 (4m 24s):So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.2 (4m 35s):I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.1 (4m 39s):Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.2 (4m 46s):Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.2 (5m 27s):And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.1 (6m 7s):Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.2 (6m 11s):Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to1 (6m 43s):Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?2 (6m 48s):No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,1 (6m 58s):If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.1 (7m 38s):But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So2 (8m 13s):You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.1 (8m 33s):And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those2 (8m 55s):Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.2 (9m 40s):We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.2 (10m 25s):I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.2 (11m 10s):I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.2 (11m 51s):But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.2 (12m 36s):But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.2 (13m 17s):Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.2 (13m 58s):And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.2 (14m 38s):Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great. 1 (15m 0s):Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?1 (15m 43s):Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.1 (16m 25s):I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.1 (17m 9s):I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,2 (17m 27s):100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.1 (17m 56s):I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.1 (18m 38s):Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.1 (19m 19s):And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?2 (19m 54s):We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but1 (20m 21s):Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.2 (20m 27s):Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.2 (21m 32s):Oh, oh,1 (21m 33s):It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then2 (21m 46s):You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.1 (22m 25s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.1 (23m 11s):And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.1 (23m 53s):And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.2 (24m 10s):Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.2 (24m 51s):Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.1 (25m 1s):Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.1 (25m 41s):Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,2 (25m 55s):W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,1 (26m 26s):Why did I do that? Yeah.2 (26m 28s):Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.1 (26m 42s):Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.2 (27m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the1 (27m 6s):Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.2 (27m 14s):Thank you. So how are you doing1 (27m 16s):Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what2 (27m 43s):If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,1 (27m 50s):Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.1 (28m 36s):Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?1 (29m 17s):I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.1 (29m 59s):I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.2 (30m 5s):Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,1 (30m 17s):Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.1 (31m 7s):And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,2 (31m 32s):Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.2 (32m 13s):Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.1 (32m 17s):Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.2 (33m 7s):Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.2 (33m 50s):And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.2 (34m 35s):I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality1 (34m 38s):And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?1 (35m 20s):Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?2 (35m 54s):It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self1 (36m 21s):And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.2 (36m 35s):No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,1 (36m 41s):How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,2 (36m 48s):So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like1 (36m 55s):Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.2 (37m 1s):That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.1 (37m 8s):It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.2 (37m 19s):Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,1 (37m 54s):Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there2 (38m 3s):To be curious. Fun to be1 (38m 4s):Curious about. Yeah.2 (38m 17s):Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater3 (38m 54s):School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You2 (38m 57s):Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.3 (39m 9s):Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was2 (39m 30s):The feeling that you had.3 (39m 32s):It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,2 (40m 4s):I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something3 (40m 15s):People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.1 (40m 52s):Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,3 (41m 31s):I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.3 (42m 16s):Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,2 (42m 20s):Do you have artists in your family?3 (42m 23s):No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.2 (42m 39s):It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the3 (43m 21s):That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.1 (43m 45s):Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,3 (44m 13s):Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.3 (44m 56s):I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,2 (45m 20s):You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.3 (45m 24s):I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.3 (46m 4s):And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?3 (46m 46s):And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.2 (47m 20s):Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,3 (47m 52s):But2 (47m 52s):You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,3 (48m 0s):I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.3 (48m 47s):They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way1 (49m 10s):And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?3 (49m 29s):I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.3 (50m 9s):It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.3 (50m 55s):I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but4 (51m 8s):We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on3 (51m 11s):Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.3 (51m 52s):And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.1 (52m 2s):Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?3 (52m 10s):Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,4 (52m 43s):Isabel. I haven't3 (52m 44s):Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he1 (52m 50s):Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So3 (52m 52s):He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.3 (53m 39s):And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.3 (54m 19s):Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.2 (54m 23s):Oh, say what3 (54m 27s):You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And2 (54m 38s):Coming back to me, wait a minute,3 (54m 40s):You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.2 (55m 7s):I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.3 (55m 28s):What2 (55m 29s):What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.2 (56m 9s):So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from3 (56m 29s):Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.1 (56m 59s):No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.3 (57m 23s):Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.3 (58m 3s):Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.2 (58m 29s):That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.3 (58m 58s):Oh, wow. Yeah.2 (59m 1s):That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.1 (59m 38s):We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.1 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah.3 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.2 (1h 0m 31s):Right. Very3 (1h 0m 32s):Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.2 (1h 0m 35s):Right?3 (1h 0m 36s):The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but1 (1h 1m 10s):It's like 48 or some craziness3 (1h 1m 13s):For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella and Joe slower. And I think because they come from, you know, such interesting backgrounds, you know, Joe slug being Polish, you know, Bella, it can be in a Russian Jewish woman. Oh, I got a lot of stories while her, oh my God.1 (1h 1m 43s):She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?3 (1h 1m 47s):Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.3 (1h 2m 28s):I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.3 (1h 3m 9s):You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.2 (1h 3m 38s):Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,3 (1h 4m 13s):She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.2 (1h 4m 34s):We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?3 (1h 4m 45s):No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.3 (1h 5m 29s):I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,1 (1h 5m 41s):Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?3 (1h 5m 49s):Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.3 (1h 6m 31s):And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.2 (1h 6m 38s):But it took the focus3 (1h 6m 40s):Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.2 (1h 7m 24s):Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,3 (1h 7m 30s):She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.1 (1h 7m 55s):Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or3 (1h 8m 3s):Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.1 (1h 8m 23s):Wait a minute. So wait a minute.3 (1h 8m 25s):There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but2 (1h 8m 32s):There was quite a few.1 (1h 8m 35s):Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.3 (1h 8m 50s):I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.3 (1h 9m 31s):Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.2 (1h 9m 42s):Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,1 (1h 10m 2s):We don't have any money.2 (1h 10m 3s):We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.3 (1h 10m 27s):I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.3 (1h 11m 8s):And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.3 (1h 11m 48s):And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,2 (1h 12m 11s):Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.3 (1h 12m 21s):I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I
Intro: Is Mercury in retrograde?, thought ideation, Let Me Run This By You: holding the hope for someone else when you're not feeling it yourselfInterview: Centenary university, Cedar Point, dyslexia, Ed Graczyk, stage combat, John Jenkins, B.K.S. Iyengar yoga, Burn This, movement to music, therapy, improvisation, Sean Gunn, Lee Kirk, Johnna Adams, No End of Blame, Paul Holmquist, Ben Nye, Tisch, Hot l Baltimore, Sharon Gopfert, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, Les Liaisons Dangereuses at Shattered Globe theatre, demons, Susan Bennett, Agamemnon at European Repertory Theatre, Leonard Roberts, vanity, the Wolf Pack Production Company, Zach Helm, Bridget Quebodeaux, Jimmy McDermott, Rob Hess, Hunting Cockroaches, Paul Tei, cancer.
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