Podcast appearances and mentions of john bridges

Guest: John Bridges, MD, MS For children with rheumatic diseases, early diagnosis, personalized care, and multidisciplinary collaboration are critical for optimal long-term management. Join Dr. John Bridges, Assistant Professor in the Division of Pediatric Rheumatology at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Heersink School of Medicine, as he explains how access, timing, and collaboration shape pediatric rheumatology care. Dr. Bridges presented on this topic at the 2025 Congress of Clinical Rheumatology East conference.

Guest: John Bridges, MD, MS For children with rheumatic diseases, early diagnosis, personalized care, and multidisciplinary collaboration are critical for optimal long-term management. Join Dr. John Bridges, Assistant Professor in the Division of Pediatric Rheumatology at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Heersink School of Medicine, as he explains how access, timing, and collaboration shape pediatric rheumatology care. Dr. Bridges presented on this topic at the 2025 Congress of Clinical Rheumatology East conference.

Episode 265A huge week in British and world events. The 1st Labour budget in nearly 15 years, a new Tory leader and Trumps wins in America.John Potter is joined by Jake Austin, John Bridges and Ed Stephenson to discuss these huge developments and what consequences they will have on all of us.Keep up to date with the LibDem Podcast on Instagram, Facebook & Twitter - @LibDemPodPlease like & subscribe to the channel on YouTube as well as through your podcast provider so you never miss an episode.If you want to support the show why not join our Patreon exclusive service at: www.patreon.com/libdempodThanks for listeningThe Lib Dem Podcast

John Bridges got sucked into a jet engine. What a way to go.Show website: www.truestoriespodcast.comBecome a Patreon Supporter: https://bit.ly/3XLR99vBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-stories-with-seth-andrews--5621867/support.

Read OnlineAfter Jesus left the synagogue, he entered the house of Simon. Simon's mother-in-law was afflicted with a severe fever, and they interceded with him about her. He stood over her, rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up immediately and waited on them.  Luke 4:38–39If you wanted to share some important message with a group of people, you would first need to get their attention. This could be done through a variety of means, such as through a charismatic personality, a powerfully moving story, a heroic act of virtue, or anything else that leaves people impressed or even amazed. Once you have their complete attention, you can share the message you want to share. This is what Jesus did in today's Gospel.Jesus began His public ministry in Nazareth, but the people of his hometown rejected Him from their Synagogue. Therefore, He immediately traveled some 20 miles on foot to Capernaum, a town just north of the Sea of Galilee, where Jesus would spend much of His time. In this first visit to Capernaum, at the beginning of His public ministry, Jesus taught in their Synagogue, cast out a demon, and then went to the home of Simon (who eventually was given the name Peter) to perform His first recorded physical healing in Luke's Gospel. He cured Simon's mother-in-law, who suffered from a severe fever. Then, later that evening, many people brought to Jesus the sick and possessed, and Jesus “Laid his hands on each of them and cured them.” He certainly got their attention. And the next morning, as Jesus was preparing to leave Capernaum after this first visit during His public ministry, the people tried to convince Jesus to stay. However, Jesus said to them, “To the other towns also I must proclaim the good news of the Kingdom of God, because for this purpose I have been sent.”Has Jesus ever gotten your complete attention? Though you most likely have never witnessed a miraculous healing first hand or seen a demon being cast out of one who was possessed, Jesus still wants your full attention. He wants you to be so amazed at Him and so impressed by Him that you find yourself seeking Him out so as to be more fully fed by His divine teaching.Some people give their full attention to our Lord after a powerful experience on a retreat. Others are struck by a powerful sermon. And there will be countless other ways by which Jesus has gotten your attention so as to fill you with a desire to listen to Him and be with Him. Such experiences lay a wonderful foundation by which we are continually invited to turn to our Lord. If this is not an experience to which you can relate, then ask yourself the question “Why?” Why haven't you been amazed by our Lord to the point that you fervently seek Him out so as to listen to His nourishing Word?Reflect, today, upon this initial way by which our Lord got the attention of the people of Capernaum. Though some would eventually turn from Him, many did become faithful followers on account of these personal experiences. Reflect upon any way that you have encountered our Lord powerfully in the past. Have you allowed that experience to become an ongoing motivation for you to seek Him out? And if you cannot point to any such experience, beg our Lord to give you an interior drive to desire more of Him and to be fed by His holy Word and divine presence. My miraculous Lord, I know that You desire my complete attention in life. And I know that I am often distracted by many things that compete with You. Give me the grace I need to become so amazed by You and by Your action in my life that I fervently seek You out so as to be continually nourished by Your holy Word and divine presence in my life. Jesus, I trust in You.Source of content: catholic-daily-reflections.comCopyright © 2024 My Catholic Life! Inc. All rights reserved. Used with permission via RSS feed.Featured image above: Christ Healing the Mother of Simon Peter's Wife by John Bridges, via Wikimedia Commons

In this Nutritional Therapy and Wellness Podcast episode, host Jamie Belz talks with fellow FNTPs (Functional Nutritional Therapy Practitioners), John Bridges and Kristy Corah, co-owners of Best of the Bone USA. Learn more about all things bone broth, from the abundance of health benefits to how to make bone broth at home (22:19). Visit them at: https://www.bestoftheboneusa.com/?v=7516fd43adaa and use coupon code “NTA15” for 15% off sitewide. Connect with them at: John@bestoftheboneusa.com and kristy@bestoftheboneusa.com. Note: This is not a paid sponsorship spot – these are just great people doing great things to promote wellness in the world. ____________________________________________________ Please hit “SUBSCRIBE” and connect with us at www.nutritionaltherapy.com/podcast.  

Desc: Season 2 Episode 70 is here! It's wife swap week on NBAFT as the great John Bridges makes an appearance on the mid-week show. He and Jandy talk Level Up, Futties, EAFC and more as the summer rolls on. This is Nothin' But a FUT Thing!

Season 2 Episode 56 is here! Jandy and Doc are joined by the hardest working Dad in FUT, John Bridges, to discuss La Liga TOTS. We chat player reviews, drop weight, the lack of SBC content, as well as a little preview of what's to come in Ligue 1 TOTS next week. This is Nothin' But a FUT Thing!

CreditsAuthors: Rose Bailey, Benjamin Baugh, David Brookshaw, Christopher Cowger, Bethany Culp,Matthew McFarland, Greg Stolze, Chuck WendigDevelopers: Russell Bailey and Chuck WendigEditor: Genevieve PodleskiArt Director: Craig S GrantBook Design: Craig S GrantInterior Art: Helsa Amadi, Patrick Ballesteros, George Bough, John Bridges, Felicia Cano, Dan Duncan, Jenny Frison, Craig S Grant, Mathias Kollros, Marco Mazzoni, Jeremy McHugh, Mark Pexton, Esther Sanz, Matt Smith, Doug Stambaugh, Matthew Starbuck, Bill Thompson, John WigleyFrontispiece: Bethany CulpFront Cover: Michael KomarckCreative Director: Richard ThomasSupport the show

Intro: Crypto bros, missing the great economic bubbles of the early 2000s. We may as well have cotton candy furniture, Severance on Apple TV, Bad Vegan. Let Me Run This By You: Stage Moms, kindergarten theatre.Interview: We talk to Joe Basile about Long Island accents, NYU Tisch, Bradley Walker, Ensemble Studio Theatre, Liz Lerman's Critical Response Process, Mary Zimmerman's Metamorphoses, the Neo-Futurists Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind (The Infinite Wrench), perfectionism,  Roundabout Theatre Company,  A Bright Room Called Day, Suzan Lori Parks, Go Humphrey, sock puppet Showgirls, keeping the thread of community after college ends.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Kalichi.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (32s):Okay. I'm getting, I'm getting it together. I, Yeah, I woke up with this really interesting idea that I wanted to run by you, which was, cause I was really tired when I woke up and I thought, okay, everyone's tired when they wake up. And then I thought, well, and they always say like, Americans, you know, never get enough sleep. We're always tired. But like nobody ever investigates why really? Why that is that our system is really fucked up. So like, I don't know. I just was like, yeah, we always do all these like expos A's on like sleep or wellness. Right? Like Americans are the fattest and the most unhealthy. And I'm only speaking about Americans because that's where we live. I don't know shit about Madrid.2 (1m 13s):You know, I'm sure they're they have their own plethora of fucking problems. But I'm just saying like, we don't actually do the work to like, figure out what is wrong. We're just like, Americans are, this Americans are that nobody's getting enough sleep. And like, there's all these, you know, sort of headlines. Right. And we're not just like, well, why is nobody getting enough sleep? Like what is actually happening? So that was my grand thought upon waking up was like, yeah, like, I don't know. We just never dig deep in this case. We're not big on digging.4 (1m 46s):Probably not. I mean, I think our lifestyle overall is pretty unhealthy and it's because of our economic model.2 (1m 58s):What I was gonna say, it all boils down to see the thing is the more you talk to people, the more I do the angrier I get, especially like in my office, like slash co-working, like I gravitate towards the ladies and a lot of ladies of color. And we end up sitting around talking about how like capitalism and systematic racism and sexism are all tied together and how, and by the end, we're just so angry. We're like, okay, what can we do? And we're like, okay, well we need to stop putting money in the pockets of this old white man who owns the coworking. But like we have nowhere else to go. So we're like, now we're screwed. So anyway, it's interesting. It's like it all, every conversation I have of meaning with you or with my cousin and it all boils down to the same thing.2 (2m 43s):And then you end up thinking, I ended up thinking the really, the only way is mass extinction and starting over with a new species, fresh slate, fresh or revolution, right. Or some kind of bloody revolution, it's going to be bloody because you know, the, the, the, the people in power aren't going to let go as we see. So like, we're not, it's not good is all, but I don't feel necessarily like, and maybe it's because I took MTMA, but like, I don't necessarily feel terrible about it. I feel just like, oh yeah, like we're, we're headed towards this way, unless something drastic happens. And I'm not sure that's a terrible thing. Now I don't have children.2 (3m 23s):So I might feel totally different about my children and my children's children and their children, but I just don't, that's not my frame of mind. So anyway, that's what I was thinking as I was so tired, waking up.4 (3m 35s):Is there any world in which you and the other women in coworking can just put your, just rent and office?2 (3m 44s):So we're starting to organize to like, be like, okay, you know, like who would want to go in on a lease, you know? But the thing is, it's so interesting. It's like, well, maybe it's LA, but it's also the world. Like, people don't really trust it. Like we don't really know each other that well yet. So we'd have to like do credit checks and thank God. My credit is good. Thank God. Now it was terrible. But all this to say is that like also LA so transitory that people are like in and out and, and like my, you know, travel. It's just so it's such a weird existence, but we are talking and there's a guy, a black dude. Who's also like my financial guru guy who like, who works at co-working.2 (4m 28s):I met here, he's a mortgage guy. And he's just been like, talking to me all about fucking crypto bros and like how the crypto bros are like, he's like, it is insane. Now, Gina, did you know, now I'm just learning about this world. And he's like, it's all, make-believe basically we live in the matrix and that fucking, there is something called the virtual real estate. Did you know this? Okay, you can purchase virtual squares of real estate, like Snoop Dogg's house, like, like, and people are doing it. And the people who are, it's like a status thing and it's expensive. And the people who are becoming billionaires are the people who run the apps.2 (5m 9s):Right. Are the people who created the fucking program. We are in the matrix. And I was like, wait, what? And he showed me the site where you can buy any town. If you looked into your town, people are doing it. It is, it is consumerism mixed with people are buying things that don't exist.4 (5m 29s):Okay. Yeah. I feel like this is what happens when people with an unchecked power and privilege, it's like, okay, well, like literally we're just making it up. Let's just have cotton candy, be our furniture now. Like it's. So I tried to get into Bitcoin.2 (5m 50s):Oh yeah.4 (5m 51s):Like about five years ago, somebody that I went to high school with is rich from Bitcoin. And, and she was like one of the founders of one of these companies. And so the first problem I have is you shouldn't invest in anything that you don't understand. Right. So I tried to read about it and I'm just like, but what, I just kept reading and being like, yeah, but what is it? Right. You know, what's an NFT.2 (6m 20s):Oh my God. The NFTs. Oh my God. And his name is Lamont and I love him. And he was trying to teach me about those. And I was like, Lamont. I have to take some kind of drug to understand what you're saying. I don't,4 (6m 31s):I have, I, you know, I've read articles. I've had people explain it to me. I mean, I think what it is, is I do know what it is, but I'm just like, that can't be what people are spending that be that,2 (6m 43s):Yeah, because we're not stupid people. Like we can understand concepts of things.4 (6m 47s):The thing that got me off of cryptocurrency and, and FTS and all that is that it's so bad for the environment, blockchain, the amount of energy that's required to power blockchain is just like so destructive.2 (7m 3s):Okay. So this leads me to, so Lamont was like, you know, what's going on in the coworking row storage room. And I'm like, what? And of course me, I'm like, are there, is there like a torture chamber? That's why Was like, no, he's like one of the side businesses of the CEO of this place is to host these crypto machines that, that it's like credit card terminals, but for crypto. And so all the, all the crypto exchanges that go on need checks and balances, God, he's such a good teacher. He actually explained it to me. He's like, look, you, when you do a crypto exchange with somebody that has to be checked or else, how do you know you're actually getting shit, which is all like theoretical anyway.2 (7m 47s):But he's like, so then you have to create these machines that check the other machines. And those are some of those. And you get paid. It's just like having credit card terminals, right? It's like selling credit cards. You know, people that sell credit card terminals, like they make money off the, the things, the exchanges, the, the transactions, right? Transaction fees. It's like 10, 10 cents of whatever or something 4 cents. So we got machines in the fucking co-working that have nothing to do with coworking. And I re one day it was hotter than fuck over here. They take a lot of energy and Lamont Lamont goes to the guy, the crypto bro. Who's also the CEO of this coworking space who really wants to just be the crypto, bro.2 (8m 27s):He's like, listen, bro. Like, something's going to melt down. You got to have something to cool. These machines. I mean, it's a fucking disaster waiting to happen. We're all going to burn up because this motherfucker wants to do crypto. He's not even dude. He's just doing the terminals. They're called terminals. No wonder my motherfucking internet doesn't work. How much juice do these motherfuckers take? I got pissed. I got Lamont. And I got pissed. I said and Lamont so funny. He goes, yeah, I don't mind all this like virtual crypto shit, but I need some actual motherfucking green tee up in here. You haven't had green tea up in here for days.4 (9m 6s):This is what I'm going to say. This is a, like, when you all of this, when all of this starts swirling in my head and it's all overwhelming, I just go, oh, like, okay. But that's not for me. Like this whole ether, a world that's cotton candy furniture. Like that's not for me. I have to stick with what I know. I like go stick with your, with, with what's in your CTA, what's in your wheelhouse.2 (9m 30s):Right. She taught us. Catherine taught us that, right?4 (9m 33s):No, it was a2 (9m 35s):Catherine's job. Oh,4 (9m 38s):Josh. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about, the programs are called the, your concentration is called dementia anyway, like in the same way that, you know, people create art that other people criticize. And then you say, well, it's not for you. Like, I just know that none of that is for me. So, you know, because here's the thing we Erin and I have had near misses on like a bunch of bubbles. Right? We lived in California, we lived in the bay area during the, what they used to call the.com. And all of our friends had these hundred thousand dollars a year jobs and worked at Google and places and got Friday night, beer parties and lunch catered, whatever, every single day.4 (10m 23s):And we were just like, oh my God, we're so dumb. We can't, we don't know how to work in tech. We don't, we can't get to me take advantage of this opportunity. Then it was the housing market. And in 2004, it's like, wow, you could get a house. Like we could buy a house. Somebody would give us a mortgage. When we have no money in so much debt, we thought we should buy a house. We looked into buying a house that didn't work out. That turned out to be a good thing. I think the crypto thing is another, like, I'm not saying it's a bubble. Although it probably is. Cause we have to be in a bubble. But I'm saying like, I put myself at ease about not being able to really grasp these things by just saying like, oh, that's not for me.4 (11m 10s):That's not what I'm, that's not what I'm really like here on this planet to eat, to do2 (11m 16s):It interests me. And also, yeah, it's so bad for the environment. And also I just don't give a fuck. Also give me my fuck. Oh, we haven't had creamer up in this bitch for like, and I started, I was like, I don't give a fuck what you do here, but I need creamer. So if you don't like it and they finally got it, you bet your ass when Lamont and I were like, okay, green tea, we need it. And they got it. Cause we were like, fuck you. Like we're not stupid. And then the other thing that I wanted to say about the whole Bitcoin, oh the minimalist movement that these, these kids that are in their thirties are doing okay, listen to this. This is insane.2 (11m 56s):So kids are having and kids. Yeah. They're like 30, right? They're buying Teslas. Okay. But great. They buy a Tesla. Teslas are now equipped with so much shit that you can basically live in it. As long as you have a charging, they fucking park their shit and their parents' house. I'm not kidding you. So a lot of them were living with their parents. Right. And they were like, well, this fucking sucks, but they're saving all this money. Right. Cause it's so expensive. So there's sock away, their money. They buy a Tesla, they park the Tesla in their parents' fucking driveway. And they do experiments where they plug in and then they see if they can live in it. Okay. This is like a real thing.2 (12m 37s):Right? So it has everything you need except a shower and the bed, or like you, your seats go down. It's actually an, a toilet shower and a toilet. And then they get, so they have a Tesla,4 (12m 48s):They get,2 (12m 49s):They get, they get, they get a gym membership. Okay. So they had a Tesla and a gym membership and that's all they need. And they fucking don't own shit except crypto currency in their Tesla and fucking go around to different cities. And there's like all these Airbnb hacks and, and rental car hacks that if they travel, they travel around the country. Like the guy who is the CEO of this place, doesn't live here. He lives kind of an Austin kind of here is a test. It is the weirdest thing.4 (13m 22s):Okay. Well, when the Russians send nuclear missiles and we ended up having hand to hand combat with the Chinese or whatever, well, these fighting people gonna to do nothing.2 (13m 32s):I don't know how to do nothing. There'll be dead. No, no. But you and I are scrappy. Like we could figure it out. They're dead. And that's fine.4 (13m 41s):I always think of, I just said, I think like people used to hunt, you know, like w w where if our world is predicated on so much pretend and like, and like also just like this very thin margin of, well, it's all fine and good until the power grid goes out. It's all fine. And good until like, suddenly for whatever reason, there is just no internet,2 (14m 3s):Like, or they get hacked. Right,4 (14m 6s):Right. Yeah. It's all fine. And good until like everything that we put our hope hopes and dreams and faith into just doesn't work one day, because that's what happens with machines is they just, sometimes they write2 (14m 17s):And Lamont was saying, and I kind of agree with him that like, what he thinks is happening. So frantically the government is scrambling to get into crypto. Right. Frantically our government is like, we're going to have a fucking stake in this. So what he thinks is going to happen and like agree with him is that they're going to figure out a way to sabotage the crypto system and say, we, we now run the cryptosystem. He's like, I know it's a conspiracy theory, that kind of thing. But of course it's money. Right. So they're going to say, okay, okay. Like you guys are going to get screwed because someone's going to hack, you, let the government take over, we'll run crypto. And then of course,4 (14m 54s):Which takes away the main draw of crypto, which is that it's this currency that cannot be traced to everything. So the second there's any type of regulation that, that, and it's like, well, you might as well just be talking about dollars. Right. Because you know,2 (15m 9s):That's what they're going to do. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. We'll probably be dead, but that's okay.4 (15m 14s):Yeah. We'll probably be done. I'm watching this television show called severance. Oh,2 (15m 19s):Everybody loves severance.4 (15m 21s):Wow. Wow. Wow. It's it's woo. It's really something else. But what I love about it is it's kind of hard to explain, so I won't try to explain it, but there's suffice it to say the company that these people work for, the job that they do is they sit at these computer terminals and they there's just a screen full of numbers. And they have to put these digits into the correct bins at the bottom.2 (15m 53s):Okay.4 (15m 54s):Based on their feeling about the numbers, like these numbers are scary and these numbers are half. Yeah. It's so weird. Right? When I, when I see them, they're putting the numbers into this little bins in the bottom and I go cut. This is like my daughters, you know, like educational games. She has to do something like this. Well, it gets to the end of the season. And the they've, all this little department has leveled. The there's all this pressure on getting a certain quota by the end of the quarter. And it's, we don't, we're not gonna make it and we're not gonna make it.4 (16m 35s):We're not gonna make it at the last minute. They make it. And what making it looks like for them is that a pixelated cartoon character comes on and says like, basically you leveled up. So really it, I dunno if this is the point that they're trying to make, but it really looks like they're just playing a video game.2 (16m 58s):This is insane. I love it. It's the same.4 (17m 2s):It's really, really good. And I, and I reached out to all of the actors on there and seeing if anybody wants to be on our show, I got one person who was like, oh, that sounds interesting. I'm like, is that a yes and no, I never, I never heard anything back from her, but yeah, listen, humans are designed to work. So when you don't have to literally like, grow your own food and cut down your own wood, you have to find something to do. That feels work, work ish. And I feel like a lot of our industries are kind of work adjacent2 (17m 43s):And like, and like a lot of sorting into bins. Yeah.4 (17m 50s):You2 (17m 50s):See fucking bad vegan.4 (17m 55s):No, I was wondering if I should watch it.2 (17m 57s):Okay. Watch it. And we'll talk about it because whoa. It is, the Myles was a very frustrated with this documentary based on,4 (18m 9s):Oh, it's a documentary. Oh, I thought it was a tele. I thought it was a fictional show.2 (18m 13s):Oh, it they'll make a fictional show out of it. But it's a documentary about a woman who started a vegan restaurant and so much more in New York city. And it comes down to what we always said. And I'll wait until you watch it. But I, it just reinforces what we always talk about, which is if you have an unfulfilled, inner need from childhood, that shit will play out. I could trace this, her whole demise, her whole demise. And it's a whole crazy ass fucking story about this woman. Her whole demise comes down to the fact that Alec Baldwin did not pick her to date. Okay. That's it.2 (18m 53s):Okay.4 (18m 54s):Completely plausible. I completely understand that.5 (19m 1s):Let me run this by you.4 (19m 9s):I know my son got this part in a movie. And so the thing we wanted to run by you is I, Hm. So many things I get, I get stage moms. I understand why stage moms is a thing. When my son started getting into acting, he was five years2 (19m 35s):Old. Yeah. It was really young.4 (19m 37s):And my thing was, I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mum, which was reinforced by every time I've ever been on set. There's always at least one really out of control stage mom. And I think I told the story in the podcast before, but one time we, we were in a, he was doing Gotham that showed Bathum and there was like a gaggle of kids in this scene. And this one boy, I was just, you know, whatever. I was striking up a conversation with him and I said, oh, do you, do you really want to be an actor? And he said, no, my father makes me do this. I want to be at school.4 (20m 17s):And it was just so2 (20m 19s):Like,4 (20m 19s):God, and I met a lot of kids. This was back when he was doing all just all background stuff. I met a lot of that's where you find the most stage moms when the kids are like that, the stakes are just, couldn't be lower. Right. You know, they're just doing background, extra work, which is all just to say, though, I've had to be in dialogue with myself about what my aspirations are about working in film and television and my frustrated aspirations. And I, you know, I've had to just be constantly talking to myself about making sure that this is what he wants and not what I want. And in the classic thing that always happens is when he gets an audition, if he doesn't feel like doing it, it just, it becomes this thing.4 (21m 8s):And I always say, you don't have to be an actor. You don't have to have an agent, but if you're going to be an actor and you're going to have an agent, you have to do the audition.2 (21m 18s):That's true.4 (21m 19s):And you have to work at it and you have, you have to work hard at it. And that thing is actually really hard. And it takes a lot of work that we just kind of overcame this obstacle for the audition for this movie, because I made him put in maximum effort. Usually I don't usually, I'm just like, well, it's his career, you know, it's his life. If he doesn't want to work on it, why am I going to spend, you know, my whole time? But I'm really encouraged him to work on it. And he really did. And he did really well. And so now we're waiting to hear, you know, whether or not he's gotten it, but the first night that this was a thing, I couldn't sleep. I was awake. Like, I mean, part of it is thinking about the logistics.4 (22m 1s):Like how will I live in LA for a month when I have two other kids. Right. But the other part of it is just, what is this going to mean for him to, what's going to be what's next and what's next and what's next. And what's next. So I've talked a lot of shit about stage moms in the past. And I just want to say, if you're listening to this in your stage, mom, I get it. I get, I get, you know, because maybe this was your hope and dream, but also maybe just, you put a lot of effort into when you're the mom of the kid who wants to do this, it's so much work for the mom or the dad was the case may too much. It's, it's scheduling babysitters when you have other kids2 (22m 43s):Driving4 (22m 44s):Into the city for auditions paying for headshots every year, because they change so much every year communicating with doing the cell. I had to learn. This is actually how I learned how to do I moving because I had to, you know, work, learn how to edit his self-tapes and stuff like that. So, but have you encountered stage moms? Oh,2 (23m 7s):That's a great question. Yes. And I feel like I totally understand how moms and dads get and caretakers get to be that way. And I think also to remember for me is that it comes from this genuine usually place to want to help and protect your kid. And, and also, and then you mix that in with your own aspirations, which I would have to, if I had a child that I was shoveling around and also, yeah, I would encounter that. So I think I get it. And I also know that like when I worked at casting and at PR and I loved it, but they would occasionally be like moms that would bring in their kids or dads, but usually it's moms.2 (23m 57s):Right. Of course, who bring in their kids that were desperate to get the kid into the face of the casting directors. So they'd hang around. They didn't want to ingratiate themselves to casting at the audition. They'd come into the office and, and, you know, to their credit of my bosses, PR casting, they were lovely. Like they, but, but they also had work to do so. It was like, these kids are just sort of standing there smiling. And the mom is like pushing them and we all, it was very uncomfortable and it doesn't actually work like what works is being professional on set, doing a great job in the room, being a nice kid and being a nice parent, but it just feels like, and we know this from being actors.2 (24m 45s):It just feels like you have to like, sort of ingratiate and push yourself into the faces of the people with power in order to get anywhere. So then there's like these really uncomfortable moments of like talking about nothing while we're trying to get work done in the office, especially like, yeah, they have a lot of work to do. So it was just, it was just very, and you'll see when we go to PR like it's all glass. So like, you can see what the casting directors are doing in the office. So you want to be in there because it looks really fun.4 (25m 16s):Right. And2 (25m 18s):Actors who are like, quote, special, get to go in there and say, hi, like I'm friends with the, with the casting directors is the, is the idea. I'm not saying I'm like someone is, and then they get to go. It's just like a really weird thing. And it's also, it's very hard to navigate and I get it too. We, we, we want to be liked and loved and picked and chosen. And it is a universal thing.4 (25m 44s):I want the same thing for our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.2 (25m 48s):I don't. I've had never had anyone that has been bonkers, you know, but maybe, yeah. I never, yeah, never.4 (25m 55s):Yeah. I think really they're bonkers behavior. I think actually, probably the kids are the ones who absorbed the brunt of it, which is, you know, and also it's really hard to teach a kid about acting because you're, as we've said many times, you're, you're trying to figure out how to play a character when you don't even know who you are. I mean, that's really true for a kid and trying to teach them, it's supposed to be it's. Yes. It's pretend, but you're supposed to be sincere and no, you're not the character, but yes, you have to be there. It's a lot of mental gymnastics,2 (26m 32s):Impossible. And like, if you don't know how to communicate that to a kid, let alone, the kid know how to do it. It's a mess. And then you're just, it's just kind of a crap shoot. Like, especially when you wouldn't see that were two and three years old.4 (26m 47s):Oh, see, now that I can't2 (26m 51s):Was like, yeah, some kids are, I mean, it's just to me, I thought it was amazing, but I also didn't have an agenda. I'm trying to get shit done. Like the directors and the producers on the, everyone is trying to get shit done in the room. And I have a kid doesn't, you know, whatever the kid is literally three years old. So like, I thought it was amazing, but I, they it's, it's a nightmare.4 (27m 15s):Yeah. Did I ever tell you the story of when I taught drama to kindergarten?2 (27m 21s):I know you did, but I don't know.4 (27m 24s):I had this job at this school called head Royce in the bay area. I got a job teaching after-school drama to kindergartners. It might've been my very first teaching thing. No, but it was early on and I hadn't taught, I certainly hadn't taught like my full-time teaching job that I eventually had at a middle school, but not having children and not having taught. I thought we were just going to do a play, you know, like They were going to memorize their lines. I seriously thought I seriously picked a play.2 (28m 5s):What was it? Do you remember? Was it like fucking, wouldn't it be funny if it was like, you know,4 (28m 10s):Romeo and Juliet2 (28m 11s):Steel Magnolias or something like just like totally amazing.4 (28m 15s):And it was age appropriate because it, it, it turned out to have whatever it was. I can't remember. But it was also a children's book, which I, oh, oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I adapted a children's book.2 (28m 29s):Oh my God. Okay.4 (28m 32s):And the entire time we were working on it, it never occurred to me that they couldn't memorize their lives. I just kept being like, well, maybe by next week, they'll know it. My next week they'll know it until it came time to do the performance and all the parents came and I shit, you not, it didn't occur to me until all the parents were walking in. Every single one of them had a video camera. This is before cell phones that, oh my God, they are expecting a show. And I guess I was too. And they don't know, we don't have a shell.2 (29m 7s):It look like my God, this is brilliant.4 (29m 10s):I got to the point for awhile. I was like doing the knee. I was the narrator. Right. And, and then they was supposed to be saying their lines, but then they would never say their lines. So then basically what it amounts to is I just read the entire book. Would2 (29m 26s):They do4 (29m 27s):Well, the kids just stood there. And the middle of it, when kid in the middle of my, and of course the more anxious and, and terrible, I felt like the more forced and forced, I must have looked crazy. I wish I could say videos. I bet I looked like a complete lunatic and in the middle of it as, and I'm also getting louder and louder. It's like, I would love to, I'm sure those parents are erased, taped over those tapes, but I would love to see just frantic me and I'm getting read By the time it was over, I just went to the headmaster's office.4 (30m 16s):And I was like, I did a terrible job. You should never hire me again. This was a complete disaster. And they were like, yeah, maybe this isn't your thing.3 (30m 39s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Joe, the seal, Joe is an actor and a writer and a content creator and a former Neo futurist. He has got a going on and he is lovely and charming and personable and a marketing genius. He has his own company. Now. He is all that. And the bag of chips as the kids used to say five years ago. And I hope you really enjoy our conversation with Joseph.4 (31m 21s):You still have that fabulous smile.7 (31m 27s):You were so sweet. It's so good to see both. Oh my goodness.4 (31m 31s):What you, what you don't have. What I remember is big hair. Oh, Well, you're a handsome bald bald man. So you can play.7 (31m 42s):Oh, thank you. Go on. Go on.4 (31m 45s):I will. I will. I will. But I'll start by saying congratulations. JoBeth seal. You survived theater school.7 (31m 51s):I did.4 (31m 52s):Yes. And you survived it with us mostly with bod. You guys are graduated in the same year, I think.2 (31m 58s):Yeah.7 (31m 59s):Yeah, we did. Yeah. Do you remember that year? We were in the same section, Johnny.2 (32m 4s):Here's what I remember about you. We went to a Halloween party together with my roommate with a non theater school, like my best friend, Sasha, who Gina knows Sasha and Carsey. And we went to a freaking Halloween party in the suburbs and you had the best costume ever. It was a robot. And you remember any of this? You look,7 (32m 24s):Oh my God. I don't know2 (32m 25s):Brilliance.8 (32m 27s):It7 (32m 27s):Was like, I was a robot. Wow.2 (32m 29s):Like a whole situation. And it was like, we had the best time, but it was like, we didn't know anybody. It was like in the suburbs. It was my friend.4 (32m 37s):Did he make2 (32m 38s):That? Yeah, it was all made. It was so good. Anyway, that's what I remember. That's the main thing that I remember being like, oh my God. His costume. Brilliant. So anyway, I do remember. I mean, I remember, yeah. I mean, remember bits and pieces. I remember that, like I thought you were like super nice. And also, yeah, that we all just were trying to figure it out. Like nobody knew what the hell was going on.7 (33m 7s):Yeah, no, I remember when you joined our section, we were so excited that like someone new was going to like join and we all knew of you, but we didn't know. And I remember that year, you were just like a breath of fresh air. You were just so direct and funny. And you know, I think at that point we were just getting a little tired and you just brought a lot of really beautiful energy into our sections.2 (33m 36s):Oh, the other thing I want to say before I forget is that I, when I was doing research on you, like just to catch up on you and stuff, there's other people with your name that, that some, some before like wild, like one, one guy, like a couple like therapists, couple has Lisa and Joe have your name and, and are like infomercial kind of P anyway, I just thought it was hilarious. And then there's another actor.7 (34m 3s):Yes. There's another actor in what had actually happened one year. It was, I was put in the DePaul, the theater school, alumni newsletter that I was on six feet under and all of this stuff. So people started reaching out to me and it was the other job.4 (34m 20s):That's funny. That's funny. I wonder about those alumni. So it's just, I mean, I guess you've answered the question is somebody scouring the trains or whatever, looking for names that they2 (34m 32s):Used to be John Bridges. And then I think also people submit themselves, which is so, I mean, I get it, but it's also like, I don't have time for that. I mean, like, I mean, not that I'm doing anything that fancy, but like, I, there's something weird about being like, Hey John Bridges, can you put me in the alumni news? I don't know. I'd rather be4 (34m 55s):Except for like your, but that's what it is. Right. That's what you have to do. That's what it's all about the network. I mean, I haven't ever done it either, but2 (35m 6s):I mean, I did it when I had a solo show because I thought, okay, in Chicago, maybe people will come, so I have done it, but I, I just,7 (35m 14s):Yeah, for promo, I think it might be helpful in some instances, but2 (35m 19s):Whatever it is4 (35m 22s):Actually the beginning you're from long island7 (35m 25s):And you have4 (35m 26s):Zero long island accent. Was that very intentional?7 (35m 30s):Well, it's so funny. You mentioned that because I think that was such a big thing my first year. And it really kind of changed the way I speak, because I felt like I was a fast talking like long island kid. And my speech really slowed down that first and second year. Cause I was so conscious of it. So the, after that first year, I think, you know, yoga between yoga and all the voice and speech stuff, like I was like standing up straight and talking like standard American, like, you know, whatever that was that we learned.4 (36m 5s):Like you had to do that in your, not what, even when you weren't on stage.7 (36m 10s):I mean, that was, that was a thing I think back then, I didn't really understand the distinction. I felt like I, I, I had to speak that way on stage and then it just transferred over to my real life. Also, you know, looking back, I was like, oh, you know, I wish I would have been able to make the distinction in my real life that I don't have to speak like this, but it's hard to learn something and practice it. Like I couldn't just practice that in class. It would have just been too difficult, but I started speaking a lot slower just because I was really conscious of the all sounds I was making, like all the sounds and, and I, it was pretty thick. I don't know. I don't know if you all knew me back then, but it was, there were some words I had never heard pronounced.4 (36m 52s):Well, I don't recall you as, I mean, I was surprised to learn that you were from long island and looking at your history because yeah. It seemed, it seemed like you had erased it. So were you the only person from, from New York in your class?7 (37m 10s):No. There were a cup there. Ed Ryan was also from New York. Yeah, but he was from Scarsdale, I think. And then I w I might've been the only one from long island, at least in my class that I remember.4 (37m 23s):And did you have DePaul as your, I mean, is that, was that the school you wanted to go to or your safety?7 (37m 30s):Oh my God. I was all about NYU. I was all about it. And then even before I went to, you know, before I started applying for colleges, my senior year, I went to a summer program at NYU. And at the time there was something called musical theater, works conservatory. And I spent a whole summer doing like conservatory training and, you know, to earn college credit. And it was such a great program at the time too, because we took classes during the day. And then the evening we saw shows and did all this cultural stuff. So after that experience, I was, I just wanted to go to NYU and I just loved it. I loved the city and then I didn't get, I didn't get in.7 (38m 16s):And then I was deciding between DePaul and Emerson and I visited both schools. And when I went to visit DePaul, I know you all had Bradley Walker. And I stayed, he probably doesn't remember this, but I totally stayed with him in the dorms. And the other weird kind of quirky thing I remember was I, I went to his dorm room and he was eating dog food. Like he was eating out of a box2 (38m 44s):And wait,7 (38m 45s):Wait, yeah, hear me out here. So he's like, do you want some? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, peer pressure. So I ate the dog food, like out of the box, it was like dry dog food. And he's like, yeah, it's just, we like how it tastes and it's cheap. And then like, after he told me it was just like cereal and they just like, say like, they put this cereal in the dog food box anyway,4 (39m 9s):Like7 (39m 11s):Quirky things that I remember about that weekend.2 (39m 15s):So here's the thing as a 46 year old tired ass lady. I'm like, who the fuck has time to be switching foods into different modifiers. I can barely get my shoes on 18 year olds who are in college. Like the good quirky marketing. It reminds me of something they might've done. And say that movie with Janine Gruffalo and Ben Stiller, whatever that movie was that they did about gen X, whatever, like reminds me of something like, Hey, let's switch the food into the, but anyway. Okay. So was he nice to you?7 (39m 54s):Oh my God. He really sold me on the school and not, he wasn't trying to sell me on the school. He's like, this is where we do this. And he took me on a tour of the theater school and, you know, I loved that it was in an elementary school and I visited in June, which is like a beautiful time of being in Chicago. And I mean, after that experience, I was just completely sold and I, it was cool. Cause I went by myself like my mom, just let me just go to all these places to visit and like got off the, you know, I took the train, I took the L to the school and everything and, and it was, it was cool. I felt like it was a really good fit. So it worked out nicely.4 (40m 33s):You did a bunch of things though. After theater school, you moved back to New York and got very involved in theater. So tell us about that epoch.7 (40m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think I did a couple of shows in Chicago and I had major FOMO of what was going on in New York and I felt like I was missing out. And I think, you know, I had audition for a lot of stuff in Chicago and I just didn't wasn't landing things. And then, you know, when I moved to New York, I wanted to focus more on directing and writing. And I did an intern. I did a couple of internships, but I did want to ensemble studio theater. And that was super helpful because as part of the internship, you were in an actor director writing lab and yeah, and it was, I think the first time I had been in a place where you can kind of cross over and do different things.7 (41m 27s):And also the, we had a, a lab director who really kind of just taught me, like how to like give feedback to myself and how to give feedback to others. Like the big thing that she would always ask is like, after we would present some kind of work, she would just say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward with the work? Like, what is important to you? And we really, you know, we had a small group and we really experimented within that. And then after the internship, some of us kind of like stuck together. And I mean, at the time too, there were, there were a ton of interns. There was like over 20 and they gave us the keys to the theater.7 (42m 7s):And we had like, there were a couple of theaters there. So we would do our shows like on the top floor of, of, of the theater there on 52nd street and, you know, hang out after and drink beer. And like, I mean, something that probably is not happening today, but it was, it was a really co like a good landing pad for me. So just to meet other people.2 (42m 28s):Okay. So if we take it back a little bit, like when you work, cause I'm curious about that. So like, you didn't have FOMO about LA, right? Like moving to LA when everyone moved to LA or did you like when you graduated from DePaul and I asked, because now you're here obviously in Southern California, but also because it sounds like New York to you based on you, the summer program you did and stuff was sort of the, like in your brain, like the utopia Mecca for actors, but you, so you felt a FOMO, but like showcase wise. Cause I love the good showcase story where you focused on New York, like, cause you did we, did we go to, no, we didn't go to New York, but we7 (43m 7s):Did know.2 (43m 8s):So how, how did you make the choice to go? Not to LA? Like how did that go down?7 (43m 13s):Yeah. I mean, we took a, that film class our last year with Gerard. I don't know if you remember him.2 (43m 20s):Fuck.7 (43m 21s):Yeah. We took a film class. Yeah. We all, we all did. I think that's what his name was and that2 (43m 29s):Class.7 (43m 30s):Yeah. We took a film class where we did a scene on camera and I, the it call experience was like horrific.2 (43m 39s):Oh, I remember it was bad for all of them.7 (43m 43s):I have like a little breakdown after, cause I was like, I don't, I just felt very, you know, self-conscious, I mean, we had spent like years doing theater and I never really looked at myself. And then I was not like a theater snob at all. Like I was willing to do anything. I would do voice or do film, but I just didn't feel comfortable with the camera at all. And I think by the last year or two, I really started to get more interested in like experimental theater and performance art. And I felt there was more of that in New York at the time or maybe I was just unaware of it in Chicago and I wanted to lean in that direction.7 (44m 25s):And that's another reason I kind of went to New York also.2 (44m 28s):Yeah.7 (44m 29s):Yeah. I wasn't seeing that as much. Like I remember there were some companies in Chicago that did some really beautiful pieces, like all the Mary Zimmerman pieces I loved. And I was like, Ugh, that was like, all those were like the Northwestern kids who were in those shows.2 (44m 45s):Oh, I remember what metamorphosis happened. And everyone was like, we all want it to be in metamorphosis. And none of us got in because she of course chose Northwestern kids because that's who she taught and that's where she went. Right. And so whatever.7 (44m 59s):Yeah. And I ended up seeing that in New York anyway, when it was there. So it was like anything like that would eventually go to New York to,4 (45m 6s):And you did a lot, you worked a lot in New York theater, you worked at roundabout and you, and you worked for the Neo futurists, which I love that. I mean, I, that show too much light makes the baby go blind, which is now called infinite infinite wrench, wrenches that it's called.7 (45m 23s):Yeah.4 (45m 24s):I love that show. Tell me everything about being a part of that.7 (45m 28s):Yeah. You know, at that I first saw that show in Chicago when I was like right outside of, no, I saw my first year when I was 17 and then someone from DePaul had like a friend of mine had brought me to it and I, I loved it and then kind of forgot about it. And then I auditioned in Chicago for it when I was 21 and I was just not ready for it. And then when I moved to New York, I was there for maybe two or three years. I discovered that they had had started the show there. And I mean, that really kind of shifted so much for me. I, well, for one thing, it was like, it was so great to meet a group of people who were passionate about the same thing, like the aesthetic, you know, passion about being ensemble.7 (46m 19s):And that show is like so challenging and fun and stressful, but also like super rewarding. And also at the same time, you know, it kind of changed the dynamic I had as an actor and artists with the audience, because it's so rare as an actor that you get to just like be yourself on stage. It's like rarely happens at all. So to on a weekly basis, just stand in front of an audience and like be yourself. And then, and then also think about like what you want to say and how you want to say it. And you know, like through movement or puppetry or through humor or through earnestness or do something concise conceptual or abstract or, you know, and I did some like crazy shit,2 (47m 10s):Like what was your, what was your favorite cause like what I'm noticing and what as you're talking, what I'm remembering about you is that yeah. Like literally you, you, my experience of you and when we knew each other back in the day, was that yet you did not, you, you, you wanted to sort of push the envelope and step outside of the bounds of what we were learning at the theater school. Like you just had an experimental, like heart about you. So I guess my question is like onstage. What do you remember about to my, about the Neo futurist that like really sticks to you? Like performance wise? Like what was so special? Like when did she7 (47m 48s):So many things? I mean, I think, well, the craziest thing I did was take a shit on stage with someone2 (47m 57s):I never heard about this.7 (47m 60s):It was actually a very like poignant play about like writing. It was with my mentor who was, and then you have you trust and we have the same name and we both, the play was actually called untitled number two. And we had this thing in common before we would perform, we would always like have to take a pill. So I just wrote this play about that experience. And to me, like he was, you know, offered me so much advice and so many, you know, really kind of mentored me through being a new, a futurist. And so I wrote this play in homage to him and, you know, as a gift and a sense. So at the end we like produced.7 (48m 41s):We like, we were actually, we put in a bucket and then at some point we, you know, we turned the bucket over and then, which was really hard to do. Cause I have to like, hold my poo in all day. And I was like, it was not sure what was going to come out at a certain, but I also did other2 (48m 54s):So. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess because, okay, so like the old summit stage fright I think is about being a failure for me on stage, like being embarrassed, being shamed, being all the things, right? Like that's what makes me panic on stage. Right? So this is an experience where you literally are like showing your insides, like take excrement, like on stage for the sake of art and for the sake of, but like, was it freeing?7 (49m 26s):Yeah. I mean, there was, I really never forget when I first run that I did my good friend, Erica, who I met during the new futurist and who I'm still really good friends with now. She said to me, she's like, if you fuck up, you have to let it go because you'll ruin the moment that you're in. And the next moment. So there are so many times, I mean, it was, we would learn things like the day before, the day of, and it was inevitable that we were going to fuck up. So all of that perfectionism, you had to kind of leave at the door. And, and that moment I remember sometimes like being on stage and being like, I have a line coming up. I don't even know what that line is.7 (50m 9s):And here you are. And then you just kind of like, say whatever comes out of your mouth and it's just becomes part of the show. So it was really freaky for me, who I felt like at school, I was not a perfectionist, but I did do a lot of homework to make things go. Right. I had to just let, I mean, another moment to, I, we did this like dance number where we had, we had these masks, there weren't masks. They were like plastic plates with smiling faces on them. And we didn't get a chance to rehearse the dance number before we went on. So I was beat backstage and someone was telling me like what the dancing2 (50m 48s):Score.7 (50m 52s):So I had my glasses on, like with this plate pressed against me and I hardly could see. And I was just like, all right, I'm just going to like follow the person in front of me and just see what happens. And then I think that's on YouTube somewhere of me like,4 (51m 7s):Oh, well, they wait. So I'm glad that you started to speak to being a perfectionist in undergrad because it wasn't until you use that word about perfectionism that I, that rung a bell. Oh yeah. You were perfectionists or, or maybe you were just one of these people that, you know, like we've talked to before who took theater school rarely, seriously, and maybe didn't care for people who didn't. I don't know if that's true about you or not, but how have you wrestled with your perfectionism as a performer and as a writer?7 (51m 42s):Yeah, I mean, I think what was school? I had like a very different experience. My first two years, compared to the second two years, I was certainly a big nerd my first two years. And I wish I had it cause when I knew this was coming up and I couldn't find it, I think it's at my sister's place someplace, but I have a journal that I kept used to write after every acting class. And I would write like what happened and then I'd give myself some like insights and recommendations for like next time I still have it. It's just, I have to find it. And when I do I'll, I'll, I'll send you. Cause I think I was, it was, I definitely documented everything that happened.7 (52m 25s):Like breakdowns, like being really angry, being really happy, like all that kind of stuff.2 (52m 32s): coffee table book, like, like, like acting notes from a teenager, like, like, or like, I don't know. I think it could be really great, but, and with pictures, cause you're an artist the whole, anyway,7 (52m 49s):I will, I will scan a good journal entry and I'll send it to both of you when I find it. But I think, you know, writing that really helped me, I think thrive the first two years was like the writing aspect of it and reflecting on it. And I think in terms of what I do now, like I need breaks and that's how I handle like dealing with perfectionism. Now I sometimes like I've just kind of started to develop a writing practice the past two years. And I know when it's time to stop. And usually it's when I stop, I know I need to like go for a walk and reflect or just let it go.7 (53m 29s):And then like,2 (53m 30s):'cause, that's what your friend Erica told you. It's like, you have to, we have to just let it go at a certain point in order to not because what happens right. As fear begets, fear, begets perfectionism. So on stage, if something goes awry, since we're all artists, we can relate, like if something goes awry and you stay stuck in the earth, wryness you really miss out on what's coming next. And also you're destined to fuck up. What's coming next. So that letting go for you, it sounds like it's really important in order to move on now, even not on stage. Like, and so you, you say like writing and walking helps you let go and you've realized that like to move on.2 (54m 10s):Yeah.7 (54m 11s):Yeah. And I it's so funny. We were talking about letting go. Cause when I auditioned for the Neos, we had to write a play about our biggest challenge. And to me it was letting go and I wrote this play, well, we didn't say any words, but we, there was a paper shredder on stage. And then I wrote out like a word or two on a piece of paper and then like put it through the shredder. And then we gave like, we held out pens or markers to the audience and then like the audience could come up and write something and then shred it. And it was like very powerful. Cause like some people would write like, you know, my, you know, my ex-boyfriend or like envy or, you know, last seasons, like fashion collection or whatever it is, you know, that they wanted to let go of.7 (54m 59s):But I think to me that is something that's still, you know, resonates of like how, how do I let go? You know, like through meditation, through like the walking for me is a meditation and that's, that's usually like, it's a big part of my process just to take the time, you know, to take the time between creation, I guess.4 (55m 20s):What have you learned that you've had to let go in terms of how you saw yourself as an artist when you started school, versus when you came out, like in the time that you've been able to reflect? What, what I mean? Cause we, we had lots of ideas about our spas and I had lots of ideas about ourselves and who we were as artists and whoever people. And most of those were all completely, they were wrong. So, so this podcast has been a process of letting go of some of those antidotes. What's it been like for you?7 (55m 53s):Yeah, I mean a big thing for me at school I remember was I know I've listened to a ton of episodes and I feel like I was really at war with myself. You know, I, the criticism from the teachers wasn't as big of a deal as the, as the criticism that I gave myself. Like I, I never, there was no self validation at all. Like even when I did something, well, I never told myself I, there was always something wrong. And I think that has been a big part of my adulthood is just learning to give myself a gold star and to self validate and then also to learn, to understand permission, to get feedback.7 (56m 44s):And you know, I think that was something that was always a little challenging at theater school too, was, you know, I like, you know, the, the lab director that I mentioned earlier at EST, who would say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward? So often at school we weren't in control of the feedback that we got. So I think sometimes it was really challenging for me when I was like, I'm not ready for all of this or I don't need to know that. Why are you telling me that now? Or, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't control any of that. And maybe I needed to let go of that. And I did have a little bit of a habit and, and a little reputation for walking out of class.7 (57m 32s):Yeah. And it was, it was something I had to address and something, a lot of teachers talk to me about. And I mean, often it was because I was bored or just like needed a break, or I was like, I didn't want to like watch someone or whatever it was. And2 (57m 46s):I think it's really bold. Like what the fuck, man? I wish the one time I did that, I, I like got in big trouble for it. And like, but like whatever the reason is you were on some level trying to take care of yourself. Right. And so good for you. Like, fuck that. I don't know. I like it. I probably would be like, oh, oh, that's awesome. And secretly I'm like, oh, the audacity, the amazing audacity of Joe to walk out and inside. I'm probably like, I wish I could do that. But anyway, so7 (58m 20s):Yeah, I mean, to me it was, it was self care in a way. And that was before we knew anything about that. And you know, when I think of like what I was going through at the time too, was it was such an emotional time for me, like for so many reasons. And, you know, like, you know, being away from home and coming out of the closet and like, you know, like all the money struggles I had and like, I, you know, it just kind of gave me, I was just learning how to take care of myself. And then on top of all those things, like studying drama, like, okay, this is the perfect time to study drama now, you know, and even like doing all the things that we did, like, especially the movement stuff always had kind of profound effect on me.7 (59m 8s):Cause we were like retraining how to the nervous system, that sense of like freeing our natural voice and doing all these things. So I was really emotional, like the first two years a lot. And I would just leave to kind of like collect my thoughts and not like have a major breakdown in class or dumb about something that yeah.4 (59m 25s):To modulate. Right. Because that's what you, what you definitely have no control over is modulating the flow of feedback because it's not just feedback from your teachers. We're getting feedback from our peers. And sometimes you'd get feedback from peers that you didn't really respect them. So you were like, I'm not sure what to, I'm not sure what to make of this.2 (59m 42s):What's becoming clear. Is that based on what you experienced after that with the lab is that we needed a feedback class. Like we needed a literal class of how to give and receive feedback at the theater school would have been fucking phenomenal.7 (59m 58s):Oh my God. I know it wasn't until years later when I was a Neo that we learn, the, the show was on, I think east fourth street and right next to his New York theater workshop. And they do the Liz Lurman feedback method, which I love. And I'm like, oh my God, that was really a beginning point for me because then it just to follow that structure is brilliant. Like, just start with what you were struck by. I don't need your opinion right away on what to change. Look, just tell me what you were struck by what moments did you enjoy? What, you know, what questions do you have and then, or asking questions yourself. And I mean, maybe the school does that now, but I think that was really, that was really big for me.7 (1h 0m 39s):I, for any artist, whether you're a dancer or2 (1h 0m 41s):No matter whether you're a child getting feedback from your parent or a spouse, getting feedback from your other spouse or whatever, it, it, it works in all levels. And I think that what it does though, is disrupts the hierarchy of the power in an institution. And so nobody likes that. I mean, really like teachers need to feel like they're in control, right. Instead of what struck me, let's stay curious, let's stay open. That's not how conservatories are made. Like that's not the whole goal of them. And then maybe I hope they're changing, but like, yeah. Oh, I just love that you haven't had that experience after school with both the, the, the work in New York and the, the ensemble work you did and the Neo futurists sort of sh it sounds like it's really shaped your work moving forward as an artist, right?7 (1h 1m 34s):Yeah. I mean, it was really, I have to say, I mean, after that moment of being a Neo futurists, I was like, I don't think I can play a character ever again. I don't really know it can happen cause I, it just didn't, I, it really changed the dynamic I had with an audience. And I, I guess I didn't want to go back to what it was before also being a Neo. I had to let go of really all the things I had learned at school, in a sense, I mean, all I could really use was like maybe some of the voice and speech work we had done, but I, I mean, yeah, it really kind of shifted things for me, but being in that ensemble was great.7 (1h 2m 14s):Cause I, I, you know, we really learned how you really need to learn how to give and take and to, and, but also be an advocate for your own work because every week, you know, you had to kind of bring in something and you had to pitch it. You had to sell it to the five or six people who were deciding what was in the show that week. So it was, I think it's an experience that I, they do workshops, but like, I think everyone should do a workshop in that way because the show itself is living newspaper. So you have to think of like, what is relevant right now? What's relevant to this audience what's relevant in this moment, you know? And how can I bring that on stage?4 (1h 2m 55s):So wait, so you had an interest young in musical theater, but did you follow that? Have you remained interested in musical theater?7 (1h 3m 6s):No. You know what? I know you all have talked about the brochure and so I completely read the brochure wrong when I chose DePaul. Well, a couple of things I had for musical theater, I wanted to get a BFA musical theater. And there aren't a lot of schools that offer that. So I, you know, when I didn't get into some NYU, I was like, okay, well, what other school? So I had to be flexible with that. But the brochure I remember for DePaul the last year we took ensemble class. And I actually thought that that meant that we were in a theater company.7 (1h 3m 48s):So I not only thought that the, like, after you graduated, you're part of an ensemble theater company. So I told everyone, I'm like, I'm going to DePaul. And then I'm in a theater company. And then I thought that like, that was one crazy thing. And then also the movement stuff, which was, I actually really loved, like all the movements that we did. Like, I'm a big, like I'm, I was a big fan of moving to music. Like that was my jam at school. So I thought I was going to be getting some dancing training there, but I kind of, I did let it go. Certainly like, as the years of the2 (1h 4m 26s):Rest of the school, were you in any7 (1h 4m 29s):I wasn't and I really wanted to be, I, we did like Peter pan one year. And Were you in that?2 (1h 4m 38s):No, but Eric was saying was Susan Lee and she talks about it on the podcast.7 (1h 4m 45s):I heard that one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. But yeah, no, I didn't do any musical theater stuff. I did love all the, we learned like period dance, which I was a big fan of, like, that was2 (1h 4m 57s):Me too. There was a fucking structure and it was like slow. And like, there was a way to do it. I remember the Elizabethan situation maybe, or like there was like this dance with Romeo and Juliet situation. And I loved that. I felt like there were actual steps we could take, there was a pacing to it.4 (1h 5m 21s):And you knew if you got it or not. Right. Like it was, it wasn't nebulous. Like you either understood how to do it or you didn't.7 (1h 5m 27s):Yeah. I thought I was like, I love the ritual of it. And it was, it was great to learn about history in that way too. And I liked all the Labon stuff that we did with Betsy, I thought,2 (1h 5m 38s):Is that the buoyancy and the, this and the, that.7 (1h 5m 42s):Yeah. I loved all of that stuff.2 (1h 5m 44s):Yeah.7 (1h 5m 45s):I mean, it was, you know, it was physically challenging too. We, I remember that thing we did with it was called like chaos, where you had to like go crazy. And4 (1h 5m 55s):I don't remember that.7 (1h 5m 57s):Yeah.2 (1h 5m 57s):It was crazy. And I remember I got such a stiff neck. I had to go to the emergency Because we were going crazy. And the next day I was like, I think I broke my neck, but I didn't break my head. So I had to go to that. And they were like, what did you do where he's like at a headbanging concert? I was like, no, it's a theater school now.4 (1h 6m 23s):Oh, we got another one. We got another theater,2 (1h 6m 27s):Chaos lady. I was like, I can't move. Yeah.4 (1h 6m 31s):Okay. But wait, so tell us about Susan Laurie parks, 365 plays and 365 days.7 (1h 6m 39s):Yeah. So that was, we, the Neos were given a handful of S of days for our scripts from that. And then as an ensemble, we were tasked with like interpreting it in any way that we wanted to. So it was cool to like, do a show at the public. And I remember we did one piece called FedEx to my ex where we had, like, we used actual FedEx boxes, like maybe like 50 or 60 of them. And we, we had letters on them or words and like kind of configured them to, to give messages out to the audience on these boxes.7 (1h 7m 24s):So I love that experience just cause we, as an ensemble, get to LA to celebrate this playwright with other like theater companies from, I think it was from, from all over the place. And it felt, again, like another professional experience, something that we didn't really get a chance to do, because the show that we did on a weekly basis was like on knew sports street at like 11 o'clock at night, you know? And this was more of a, like, you know, a different audience for us, which wasn't,2 (1h 7m 53s):When did you stop working with, is it like once a Neil always said, Neil, can you stop pack in and do stuff? Or like, how does it work?7 (1h 8m 1s):You can. Yeah. So the, I was like a regularly scheduled Neo for about two years or so. And then I jumped in to do the show at other times. And like we did a pride show that I would do often, or I would come in and do a run. And then we also had primetime shows. So I was involved in like two or three prime time shows as either a performer or assistant director or a collaborator in some way. And I did that up until I did some marketing for the company. I did that up until I moved to LA. And even my first year in LA, I did a project at here art center with my, one of my theater heroes chucked me that I went back to to, to see.7 (1h 8m 50s):So, but yeah, when I moved here, I kind of just decided to let, let that go.2 (1h 8m 60s):They're always themes that emerged with people's lives when they come on the show. So for you then stop and starting, like ed Ryan's is being interrupted and yours is like letting things go. So when did you arrive in LA?7 (1h 9m 13s):I moved here. It's been five years. So 2017 or so. And you know, I finally feel like now I'm kind of getting settled. I mean, I'd go back to New York a lot just to hang out and spend time there. And I work remotely. So I'm able to like go there and like work for a couple of weeks. I've learned not to stay too, too long. Cause last summer I was there for six weeks and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm in my old life.4 (1h 9m 42s):How do you satisfy? If you still have a craving for performance, how do you set it? Because now you have your own company you're self-employed, which is awesome. How do yo

Join us as we shed light in the shadows in our review of Shadows in the Dark: Mehket!CreditsWritten by: Howard Ingham and Christopher Lee SimmonsDeveloper: Joseph D. Carriker, Jr.Creative Director: Rich ThomasProduction Manager: matt milbergerEditor: Anita HagerArt Direction & Book Design: Craig S GrantInterior Art: Samuel Araya, John Bridges, Ben Carre, Ture Ekroos, Craig S Grant, Craig Henderson, Imaginary Friends Studios (featuring the art of Yasmine), Howard Ingham, Michael Wm Kaluta, McKlean Kendree, Mathias Kollros, David Krentz, Stephanie Law, Peter Mohrbacher, Efrem Palacios, Rich Pellegrino, Federico Platti, Chris ky, Matias Tapia, Andrew TrabboldCover Art: Ben CarrePurchase it here: Shadows in the Dark: MehketSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/25yearsofvampirethemasquerade)

Intro: Boz's brain hurts, Ozark, the ordinariness of crime, drug running in Tijuana, Molly, Jerry Harris and Season 2 of Cheer, unpleasant surprisesLet Me Run This By You: I didn't do anything wrong.Interview: We talk to Carolyn Hoerdemann about Steppenwolf's From The Page to The Stage, John C. Reilly, tenacity, hyper-empaths, Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, Tarrell Alvin McCraney, feminist theatre, Pump Boys and Dinettes, Faith Wilding, Rob Chambers' Bagdad Cafe, Ominous Clam, Zak Orth, Good Person of Szechwan, European Repertory's production of Agamemnon, Danny Mastrogiorgio, Michael Moore's Roger & Me, Chicago Shakespeare Theater, the anti-memoir memoir, and Ann Dowd.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I have a place to go to do with, it's not my one bedroom with my dog and my husband, but it's still a lot of work, like an and so, and then on top of that, I mean, I just feel like literally, you know what, I texted you yesterday and you said you knew the feeling like my brain is hurting me, but not in a bad way.1 (50s):I don't have a headache. Like I don't, I just was, you know, telling our couple surface, like, I feel like I can literally hear my brain turning and growing and groaning and like working. I've never had that feeling before in my life, which is weird. But like that, that feeling of, oh, I'm doing or knowing that what it was, what it was like, I'm doing a lot of work, you know, like my brain is doing so ridiculous, but that's how I feel, but it's all like, it, it doesn't feel, you know, what it is. I'm used to doing a lot of physical work.1 (1m 32s):Like I'm used to my body doing a lot of work. Like whether it's, you know, like the jobs I've had, like even the jobs that I, when I was a therapist account, you know, a counselor at social services, like I spent a lot of my time, like moving cases of diet Coke and cause we were in like a halfway house. So like I did a lot of manual labor and lot and case management and case management management is a lot of manual labor, like taking clients to appointments. And like, so when using my brain now in this different way, like literally I wished I would have been a camera on me when I was redoing my resume and cover letter specifically for the ad industry, because it is like making something out of nothing and also using words to like basically, you know, trick people, not trick people, but you know, get them to think what you want them to think.1 (2m 27s):And you think, oh, well she's, you know, television writing. The thing about that is like, you can make up anything like television writing really. You can really say, and then pigs flew out of his asshole and then people are like, oh, that's a weird show. But when you're trying to sell yourself to a particular industry with a particular set of skills, trying to make your skills meld into the skills they want, I was like, I couldn't see. After a while I was like, I don't even know what this, like using words like in this space, you leave space is a big word now.2 (2m 59s):So Metta that you are selling yourself to an advertising1 (3m 8s):Up girl.2 (3m 10s):So the PR how I understand it is there is somebody affiliated with this that is an advocate of yours, a champion of yours. And she wants, she wants you in that industry.1 (3m 23s):Okay. Yes, you are understanding. And there's like multiple things here. So she's, she's a screenwriter that I met and she continued on with the master's program. But her big job is her. Her day job is she's like a creative director at an ad agency in the, in the copy department. Right? So she's a big wig and she edits, she's like, she's the big editor there right at this. And I guess they hop around from agency to agency. Look, I don't know how it works, but so she started this new job and she's like, I want you to come work in the copyright. She also gets a very large bonus for every person that comes on that she refers, which I good look, do what you need to do.1 (4m 6s):But I think it's like five grand per person that she brings. I that's what I'm led to believe from the website. So anyway, there's like a, and so she literally Gina. So I sent her my updated resume and cover letter letter looked great. And then she applied me for 30 jobs. So then I have two.2 (4m 27s):Wow.1 (4m 29s):So which sounds great, which is awesome. Copywriting, all different kinds of copywriting. But for each of those jobs, I have to fill out demographic form. So last night I literally was up after myself tapes one self-tape last night clicking. I am not a veteran. Yes, I am Latina. No, I'm not disabled2 (4m 53s):Online. I was going to say, why don't they have one form, but it's1 (4m 58s):Yeah. It's a different job number. Right? So like every time, oh my God. So then, and sign, you have to sign every, so I literally was like, by the time I went to that, my brain, I was like, what? I'm not a veteran. I'm not a veteran like that. I was like mumbling to myself. And so, so, but I have to say like, you know, it's a good skill to build for. Like, I think that thing about, we only use 5% of our brain. They they've like debunked that right. They've said like that. You can't, but I'm telling you my brain, just like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. My brain is like literally growing three side.1 (5m 41s):I don't know if it's three sizes, but it's, I can feel my, my, my like pathways changing in terms of the skills that I'm using. So that's great. You know,2 (5m 51s):I don't know. I mean, it can't be bad. Nothing. The good news is all of this work you're doing can't lead to anything bad to something. Yeah. Not illegal, You know, honestly, it's really saying something. I finally started watching Ozark. Oh God. And I, what strikes me about it is like, oh, this is not, it's not that this could happen to anybody, but you just think about like how ordinary crime really can be, you know, and how criminals aren't all in a layer or living in a way it's just, it's just moms and dads and, and people who need it, who need money in and who needs to run around and get it right quick.2 (6m 40s):Yeah. And I don't know, I will, I'm only one, not even the full first season in, so there may be a lot of stuff that I don't know, but like, it seems to me that this Jason Bateman guy was just a regular guy who got kind of wrapped up in this criminal enterprise1 (6m 58s):Didn't happen. You, I can see like most of my clients that I saw like were knowingly doing, you know, they were like, oh, I'm going to be a drug dealer and a gang member now. And no, but there were occasionally people that got involved in like scams, you know, financial fraud that you could see how it would start off and, and, and case in point miles. And I have a friend, an older guy, friend, we won't name because this is so illegal was like, Hey, what are you guys doing over Christmas break? And we're like, we're going, doing whatever. And he's like, Hey, do you want to, I shit, you not do you, if you'd let me know if you want to make some money, driving a camper from here to Tijuana.1 (7m 41s):And I, why like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, we'll give you like each $5,000 of it. And I said, well, what do you mean? Why do you need the, the, the, the camper and Tijuana? And he was like, oh, there's drugs in it. There's marijuana. And I was like, no. And miles was like, absolutely not. I'm like, have you met miles? Are you boy?2 (8m 3s):Oh, not, not marijuana, I guess,1 (8m 5s):Because it's marijuana. I don't, I don't2 (8m 7s):Think it's legal. Why do they have to do1 (8m 9s):That? I don't know. I think it was like a mass quantity or something like that. I don't know. Like, you're not allowed to like traffic, like large amounts of marijuana from different countries to over the border. Like, but so, especially in Mexico, like what? So I don't know. And we were like, Myles was like, absolutely not. I mean, miles is a lawyer. Like, what are you talking about?2 (8m 34s):Well, it's funny how just one casual aside a reference can really change your whole perspective on somebody you've known for a long time. Like I thought I've been in that situation before, you know, you think, you know, somebody and then they just casually say like, well, you know, we're swingers or1 (8m 55s):The other, the other, the other day I was meeting with somebody. Totally. And this actually didn't make me think less of him, but it was just like, he's like a totally looks like a total straight laced guy. If you're going to look at him, you know, white dude, thirties, balding, whatever. And he's like, yeah, I met him like the first time I, he was talking and he was like, oh yeah, the first time we met, we did Molly. And I was like, wait, what? At first I thought, Tina that's crystal meth. And I thought, but that wasn't, that it's Molly is whatever, HBM,2 (9m 25s):Whatever,1 (9m 26s):MTMA Molly. And I, like, I was so weird and we're like old people, what is happening? It's sitting in a cafe and you're talking about Molly. I don't know. I just it's, it totally rocked my world, which is, I think why I like to write too is because I do like to write those things in where you're like, wait, what? You know? Like, like,2 (9m 53s):Yeah, I have to say just, just the thought of learning, something like that, about somebody that I know is scary to me. And it, it just made me remember that I, after you mentioned season two of cheer, I started watching it. And I forgotten about the whole thing about that guy, Jerry Harris. And it was so heartbreaking to me when that happened. Not that it's worse or better if the person is well-known, it's just, you know, he, he seemed like a person who has such a hard life and it seemed like he was finally getting some, you know, something that he really deserved.2 (10m 38s):And then, and of course, I understand that when I hurt that hurt people, hurt people. And that he was probably doing this because this has been done to him. I don't know, man, I don't, these are surprises. I don't care for, I wanted it to stand for the rug and like for these kids to go on and being abused, that's not it at all. It's just, it's so disheartening. Well, it's really1 (11m 5s):It's. So there is, so yeah, it goes beyond grief. It's like goes beyond disappointment. It's like grief. And it's also, I think for me anyway, and I don't know about for you recreates the feeling of which is what I felt all the time with my parents, which is, oh, I know these people. I can trust these people. Oh God, I'm not safe around these2 (11m 30s):People. Okay. Thank you. That's exactly what it is.1 (11m 33s):I have that experience in Los Angeles, 40 times a day. Right. We're like, I want to like someone and then they'll say some fucking shit. And you're like, okay, well this is, you're a psychopath. Okay. Right. Like I'm talking to this. There's like, I meet them all the time at co-working because you know, co-working attracts like everybody, you just have to have money to have an office here. It's not like they, you know, vet people and some I'll be having a conversation with someone who seems relatively normal. And then they'll be like, oh yeah. You know, I was like, I really admire this Japanese porn star that like really knew what she wanted in life.1 (12m 13s):And it's not that there's anything wrong with being a Japanese porn star. It's that this guy like casually dropping, you know, and then talking about the kind of porn she does in a coworking setting. I I'm like, dude, I gotta go. I gotta make a fucking resume over here. Like I don't need to, but it's it's that in with him. It's just, I was just more like, oh, you're that you're going to bring this up to a stranger. Then I'm getting better about like, what's safe and not safe. But I do think that when you invest in something like Jerry or the cheer or a parent, and then they fucking do some shit, you're like, oh great. I'm not safe with you. That's,2 (12m 50s):It's what it is. It makes the feeling of own. And then, because I tend towards misanthropy, I'm like, okay, nobody's say if you can't trust anybody, everybody's out to get you, which is not true either. But it becomes, that is my defensive posture that I immediately tack back to, you know, I could go away thinking like, oh, there's goodness in the world. And some people and humans are inherently good. And then boom, something happens and I fail. And instead of, and I don't do the opposite when somebody does something good. I don't say yes, it's P you know what I mean? I don't, I don't have the same positive connotation that when somebody does something bad, it makes me say everybody's terrible.1 (13m 34s):It's really interesting because I'm having the experience of having to, what is it? So having to have a little more caution with people, I tend to really, really, really love everybody at first. Like really like I'm like, that person is awesome, but then they start talking crazy shit. And in the past I would have dismissed it and been like, no, I'm just sensitive. Right. Or I'm just so I'm trying now to be like, no, I wasn't there. When I was in therapy yesterday, I was like, no, no. Like in that moment I felt like this is not good for me.1 (14m 16s):And if I am not going to stand up for myself and take care of myself, nobody else is. So I have to mix a little more of the caution in with my, what can be Pollyanna kind of stuff. I have to be mindful of what my instincts are telling me about somebody, because I then will end up, you know, talking about very explicit Japanese porn techniques for half an hour and then walk away feeling violated and fucked up.2 (14m 49s):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I knew this. I ha I know somebody who's exceedingly reserved. She doesn't, I like her I'm we're friends, but she doesn't tell you anything about herself. Like, or it takes a long time. And it's just this little snip, like, as an example, I don't know how old she is. And I bring up my age all the time and I, and I think she's younger than I am, but somebody recently said, oh, actually I don't think she's. I think she's more like your age, but that's, but she's never chimed in whenever I've said anything about how old I am.2 (15m 31s):She, she, she won't tell she's, she's a mystery. And on the one hand, I think, oh, she's just, she's just protecting herself for the reason that you just said. I mean, you know, she, she knows me kind of, but it's not like she really, really knows me. Some people really wait until some people don't just give out their confidence to anybody for some people you really, and I, you know, I guess like good for her. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know. I, I tend to be more like you, not that I love everybody, but that I assume, I assume everybody has good intentions.2 (16m 13s):And, and then it's very surprising and sad and shocking to me when they don't like the thing that happened to me last week, this fricking guy, I was at the, I was picking my son up from tennis and where I've been, where I've been. Yes. And the place has bad vibes. I, I w I don't like the place. The parking is annoying, but yeah, the parking is annoying anyway. So you're, you're not supposed to wait by the curb. The parents aren't supposed to wait by the curb and align for their kids to come out, but everybody does. Right. It's just how it goes. Cause there's nowhere to go. Right. And it's, and it's been really icy here. So even sometimes I will park whatever, but this time I'm thinking, well, it's really icy.2 (16m 57s):And I just don't want him to, it's not lit up really in the parking lot. I just don't want him to fall. So I'm waiting in line and the guy in the car behind me hunks, and I, I assume he's not honking at me. Why would he behind me? Me? I'm just, my car is just sitting there honks again. Hong's a third time. And I put my arm out, like, go, go around. I just thought maybe he didn't think he could go around me. I still honking. So I just kind of opened the door a little bit. I look behind me and I'm like, what's the deal? And he's just yelling something. So I think, okay, whatever, I'll just loop around, pull over, go through the parking lot, turn to come back. And the guy I had the right of way.2 (17m 39s):And he just zoomed in, in front of me made so that I had to slam on the same guy. So I had to slam on my brakes, but then he gets out of the car and walks up, walks over to me. Of course, I lock my doors and he's like just screaming obscenities at me. Now later on, I had the thought this of course had nothing to do with me. Of course, this is how, you know, I didn't do anything wrong. This is about a person who really wanted to kick the dog. And he found that he found somebody to, to do that with absolutely. But I tend to go through my life in kind of this bubble of like, everybody's got everybody's well-intended and maybe even he was well-intended it just, it just didn't come across in the, in this experience.2 (18m 30s):And1 (18m 32s):Did he walk away?2 (18m 34s):I said, get the fuck away from me. Get the fuck away from me. By the way, my dog was in the back of my dog, who barks at literally every leaf like Wallace.1 (18m 54s):What kind of wing man are you? You fucker anyway. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think those experiences are very particularly about driving and cars and obviously there's a whole road rage. Like there's literally a television show about road rage, right? Like the truth really? Oh my God. Yeah. It's a horrible it's so triggering. Don't watch it, but okay. I mean, yeah, it's ridiculous. But that being said it's very, to me, what happens to me in that situation? I'm sorry, that happened to you is yeah. Like what you mentioned on social media, which is feeling completely powerless and like, it's scary.1 (19m 38s):It's out of control. It's traumatizing. It's I, it's not good. It's not good. And it is also to me that what the feeling is being ambushed, right? Like you're being ambushed by, by a fucking crazy ass and you didn't do anything wrong. See, the thing is, I get into this thing of like, I didn't do anything wrong. And again, if I can get to the core of it, which is as a kid, I literally didn't do anything wrong. And all this shit rained down upon me, this trauma and this and this in this bullying and this whatever. And it triggers that in me. Like, wait a minute.1 (20m 19s):I, all I'm trying to do is do good, protect my son, pick up my thing, do this merge into the fucking freeway. It doesn't matter. And then I get like, this is not fair. Like I get really hurt is what it is. I get hurt. I'm shocked and hurt. And then the person, there is no, there is no resolution, right? Like the guy doesn't then call you later and say, I'm so sorry I acted a Dick. Or you can't even call the police and be like, this guy acted like a Dick. We're like, they're like, well, did he threaten you? No. Did he? Then they're like, fuck yourself.2 (21m 5s):Right. To say that it's, it is linked to, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family. I'm for myself, looking a little bit more deeply into that. And because I, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but for me, I think that I have said that I think that I have convinced myself that I'm never doing anything wrong, you know? And, and not just say that I was doing something necessarily wrong in the situation with the sky, although actually, you know, if I could have crafted it better, I would have paid attention to the flag from really from the first time they honk, which is like, there's something wrong with this person.2 (21m 51s):Do you know what I mean? Like, and yes,1 (21m 55s):Like get away, let me remove2 (21m 57s):My instinct. My instinct is to want to fight back. In fact, I remember this time that the some concert or something like that with Aaron, it was early in our relationship. So I was in my early twenties and this guy kept whatever. He kept stepping too close to me something. And I, I pushed him and pushed him. He, and of course, what did he do? He looked at Aaron like, are you gonna like, don't do that to me. I don't want to, you know, and it's, but it's not fair. He's encroaching on my space. He's like fair. Who, who told you the thing that we're going to be fair? Like it's, you know, so I guess that's the thing is I sometimes go out in the world thinking like, I'm an, a student and therefore, you know, nothing.2 (22m 42s):I don't, I shouldn't be getting any demerits. And if I get into merit, it's not my fault. I do that a lot.1 (22m 50s):I have the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I do it where it's like, I, yeah, I have my version of that is like, I'm a nice person. Like I do good. I'm nice. How dare you do bad or do wrong or treat me bad. Yeah. I mean, he it's, all this stuff is so layered. And2 (23m 10s):As far back, like it takes a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so far back. If it took this many years for us to form this way, imagine how long it's going to take us to On the podcast we are talking to Carolyn. Carolyn has a BFA from a theater school and imitate from the school of the art Institute of3 (23m 45s):Chicago. Carolyn is a performer and a professor and a lovely and pathic, amazing human. So please enjoy our conversation with Carolyn Bournemouth.4 (24m 8s):We're not here to talk about cancer. I've got no theaters because the Rick Murphy shirt Murphy's now this is actually made by Kevin Foster, who was my, that student. But I guess so I directed a workshop that he was in. He's a wonderful man. He ended up moving to Alaska, teaching people how to climb ice mountains. And now has a wife and a baby and never left Alaska. So we had that weird connection. Cause I lived in Alaska for the summer in between my first and second year of school, which I guess is it's like another theater school story in a way. I forgot about that one.2 (24m 47s):We're here. So Carolyn Hornimann, congratulations. You survived theater school. Yes you do.4 (24m 56s):You survived it. I know. That's why I bought this very expensive mix. So I would get lots of voiceover work that I never get.2 (25m 2s):Hey, maybe this is going to be your open Amy4 (25m 4s):Visit shit. This is it. This is my ticket. This is my ticket. I love podcasts.2 (25m 10s):So you survived as a student and you teach4 (25m 13s):DePaul. I teach there. I mainly teach the non-majors, which I love, but I have directed a couple of a workshop, intro type things. But many years ago, I keep putting in proposals. They don't ask me to do again, supposedly next year, maybe I will be, which would be awesome because I have this idea to do a version of Bernhardt Hamlet with all genders and just like totally gender fluid. So2 (25m 42s):You have to submit a proposal4 (25m 44s):For a show. That's a whole nother story. I'm probably another podcast, but I have submitted proposals. But oddly enough, a couple of times I did direct. I was just asked to, and that, I guess we're going backwards to go forwards. Are we always bad and make it go forward? Right. Which is that amazing? I think it's David Ball. The book that they made us read called backwards and forwards. Do you guys think I read In HDL, you had to read this book called backwards and forwards. Anyway, I used it in my master's thesis too. Cause it's brilliant. But anyway, backwards and forwards, I was in graduate school.4 (26m 24s):Rick Murphy was like kind of very interested in what I was doing. I was doing work on performing new feminisms and he was like, what the fuck is that? What's going on at the white cards? You can curse. Oh, no podcast. And, and that's a whole nother story because actually Rick Murphy was not my teacher. I had David AVD, Collie, and I went into to Rick Murphy's office. Like I guess it was probably my senior year to ask him advice about wanting to go to London, to study his full cereals. Right. As if I hadn't already been studying for serious. Right. Cause I wanted to go to Europe and be a fancy pants, real actor. And he was like, why are you going to do that? Why don't you just stay here and find a company that does European work.4 (27m 7s):So then I was in the European repertory company for 12 years. Oh,1 (27m 10s):Oh, that's a, that's a nice long run. Is that, is that company still around?4 (27m 14s):No, that's another story.1 (27m 16s):You have so many stories4 (27m 18s):We need to have, like, I have too many stories, too many stories. I don't even1 (27m 21s):Know where to start. Well, here's where I'll start. Did you just let's get the facts? So you went to BFA at the theater school, but you got to be MFA somewhere.4 (27m 32s):Oddly enough. No, I got, what is an M a E a masters of art and art education from the art Institute of Chicago, which is funny. Cause the Goodman started at the art Institute. So I guess I'm like super Chicago already.1 (27m 45s):You did that. Okay. I wanted to get the facts down. That is why. So then I would like to start when you were a child, were you always this awesome where you just like, fuck it. I'm going to4 (27m 59s):Just be crunchy. I have cool glasses, like YouTube,1 (28m 2s):There's serial killer glasses that we have just FYI.4 (28m 7s):I am from a small town down south. And I guess in a way I knew somehow that I wanted to be an actor from like watching old Betty Davis movies with my mom,1 (28m 17s):Her like Betty Davis.4 (28m 20s):And then I, my dad died when I was a sophomore in high school unexpectedly. And I was with my English teacher who taught us Shakespeare. He was fabulous. Mr. Beaver, very eccentric man who was probably gay and was not able to be out in our little small town. And Mr. Beaver took us to another small farm town school bus to all in, to see the show that was coming in from Chicago. And it was from the page to the stage Shakespeare by step and1 (28m 55s):Walk, a little company called4 (28m 59s):John C. Riley was one of the two count of two actors. There was a man and a woman. I wish I knew who she was. I went on deep dive search last night to find out and I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Was that my computer making a noise? Oh,1 (29m 15s):I didn't hear, I didn't hear it either. So something, well, here's the thing I'm sort of in touch with John C. Riley for various weird reasons. So I might ask him,4 (29m 27s):Please ask him, oh, he's the only one that will know. It's not anywhere on the internet. And I don't talk to him, although he's very close with Rick Murphy, oddly enough. They're like buds. But so, so anyway, we're in this, you know, school editorial, I'm watching this Shakespeare show with Jonsi rally and this woman that was also amazing. I hate that. I only know the guy, right. But they had a trunk and they would pull out costumes and props from the trunk. And they went through several scenes of Shakespeare. It was, you know, like devised, wonderful, amazing theater traveling the country, like the old frickin work progress association do used to do with the federal theater, which we should still have. Thank you very much.4 (30m 7s):And I, you know, had the PR I remember holding the program to like, with like, who are these people? What did they do? Where did they go to school? Oh, theater school, DePaul university. That's one question. Okay. How old were you? Like 15 amazing. Maybe 16. Cause I looked and it said it was 86. My dad died in 85. I was 15. I was 16. So I then also had, I was the president of the thespians of Lincoln community high school in Lincoln, Illinois. And I had, we, one of the things that we got was I forgot what it was. Oh, I wish I remembered it was a fabulous name. Like it wasn't forensics theater or something.4 (30m 49s):The, the title of the magazine you would get, it was like a high school theater magazine. And you got a free subscription of that for a year. Cause you, you know, you were the president of the Philippines and it also of course had a wonderful little spread about the theater school. So then I decided it was either going to be NYU theater school. My mom wanted me to go to ISU and kept saying, John Malcovich went there. John Malcovich went there because that was only 45 minutes away from me. So she really wanted me to go there, you know, cause my dad had just fucking died and she and I had moved from the country into the town and she wanted me to stay close, but she wasn't going to say that. But I know that now that that's what she wanted. Plus it was a lot cheaper and also Webster, which is in St. Louis. I think so somehow I got into, I think ISU in Webster, but I don't remember auditioning.4 (31m 33s):I think I just like had to write an essay and say I wanted to go Tish. I didn't even, I don't think pursue it because I couldn't afford to go to New York to audition. I only auditioned at the theater school. I addition to in my junior year I got in and my junior year, I knew where I was going for my senior year of high school. That's awesome. My brother drove me there and his, he had this old convertible. I remember driving down lake shore drive with my brother. It's my brother who now has cancer. And he took me to this audition. I don't know where he went or what he did with his big, long, old, like 67 do you know, muscle car that he had. But I went in and I did the audition and I did the voice and I did the weird movement and I did my two monologues and I don't remember exactly who was there.4 (32m 16s):I think it was maybe Phyllis Gemma stuff. Maybe it was his Carol Delk person who was a movement teacher who then I never really had. But anyway, yeah, I got, I got in, I remember getting the letter. I remember standing on my stairs in my house in Lincoln, Illinois, because then, you know, you've got to actually better in the mail. There's no emails or anything. And I was standing on the stairs is my, mom's stood at the foot of the stairs and opening it and being like, and then she's like, well, you know, we'll figure it out2 (32m 47s):Time out for one second. Do you think that kids think about us opening letters? The way that we think about people opening scrolls1 (32m 55s):Or telegrams? Yeah.4 (32m 59s):I have to explain to my students with snail mail is because at the end of every quarter I send everyone a little card, just a little thank you card. I've been doing it for like 15, 16 years now. So I can't stop now that I started this tradition and I'll ask them for their snail mail and they'll be like, what's that? And then I'll have to explain to them what it is and then they'll give it to me and they'll leave off like there's zip code or the town on her. I'm like, no, you have to put everything.1 (33m 19s):So there is a, I met someone at my coworking space who is like, I think 25 and they didn't know to put stamps on letters. So he just4 (33m 34s):Imagined that he1 (33m 34s):Was going to the post box and I said, oh, you're going to the postbox. I said, oh, you forgot your stamp. He goes, what? I was like, oh my God. Anyway.2 (33m 46s):And also I have to backtrack about one of the things that John C. Reilly thing was that a DePaul production or Novus Devin4 (33m 54s):Oh seven2 (33m 55s):Will forever. Right? Okay.4 (33m 57s):It must've been one of his first jobs out of school cause it was 1986. And I was also looking because there was this amazing picture of him from Gardenia, I think in the brochure. So then not only are in the magazine that I had, I don't think I ever got a brochure in the mail. It was this magazine. I'm going to find out the name of it. Cause it was just a cool little magazine that the theater kids, theater nerd, Scott, and we, and I got it for free when I was the president of, at that speeds. And so there was this wonderful picture that was some of the, you know, lovely glorious lady like grabbing, holding onto his leg or something was very dramatic. And this story goes further because then I'm at the theater school is my freshman year and there was the God squad party.4 (34m 39s):Nobody's really talked about the gods squad a little2 (34m 41s):Bit.4 (34m 43s):So the God squad party, I don't remember who my God parent was. I don't even, I must not been very good cause I have no idea who it was, but I was at this party and John C. Riley was there.2 (34m 56s):You must've been levitating.4 (34m 59s):And Don Elko was there. There was teachers therapy for smoking and drinking with the teachers. I was like, mind blonde, what's going on? And I said, I want it to John C. Riley in the kitchen, leaning up against the kitchen sink with like a beer or something. And I was like, excuse me. I need to tell you it's still on me about why I'm here. You know? Like I got tell him2 (35m 22s):That he's4 (35m 23s):A nice guy. Remember what he said? I don't remember anything. I was just like, that's1 (35m 27s):So good that,4 (35m 29s):And this is before yeah, it was famous. Right. And he might not have even ended up being famous. This is like, I thought he was that famous from skiing. That fricking page, the stage new person traveling around tiny little rural towns of Illinois.1 (35m 45s):That's amazing.4 (35m 47s):So I would love to know what he thinks of that, that show. If he has memories of doing it, who the other,1 (35m 53s):This podcast. I mean like you'll listen, you'll listen to, if you listen to some of the podcasts, you'll hear my John C. Riley story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny.4 (36m 1s):Oh, you have one too. Okay. I've been, I went this way. I have bags. I went down deep dive last night.2 (36m 9s):I love that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they find the podcast go and listen to a bunch of. So what was the experience like for you? You were walking down memory lane. What was it making you feel?4 (36m 21s):Ooh, I don't know. Now it's making me want to cry. It was, you know, I was 17 and I started there. I had no idea what I'd got myself into and a lot of it, you know, really broke my heart, but I also think it may, you know, like everyone else has said it made me who I am, made me kind of a tough skinned bad-ass, but I'm also a hyper empath and have trauma. And so now I have to deal with, you know, all of that in my old age. But I did have experiences there in classes with certain teachers, with certain instructors, certain directors, I lived with five girls in a two bedroom apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden.4 (37m 13s):We were all poor. Nobody could afford anything else I could barely afford to go to showcase. It was only in New York that year was when they went back and forth between New York and LA I guess, or I don't think we'd even started doing LA. It was the only New York and yeah, I don't know. I mean the whole casting pool process, the whole cutting process. I mean, obviously it didn't get cut, but that was, you know, traumatic. I've heard other people talk about how they didn't really think about it or this and that. Like Eric Slater was like, I don't really think about it. And I was like, I have to say,2 (37m 45s):I hope that isn't over the wrong way. A lot of men didn't really4 (37m 47s):Think about it. I was going to say, it goes a little bit ago and I know him, I'm friends with him and sat there for a little bit of privilege there.2 (37m 55s):Just like, it's just, it's like how a fish doesn't know it's in water. Like you just don't know.1 (38m 1s):Yeah. I mean, they just are doing their set dance. Right. And everyone's dancing around them, but we sort of had to do our own thing. What do you think the tears are about? Like when you, when is it just raw motion or is there like tears for young, a young version of you? Or like it's just a lot.4 (38m 22s):I'm a very teary person. I think. I don't know exactly what it is. I'm in therapy. It's I know. I just,1 (38m 29s):I am the same way. Like I,4 (38m 32s):I get, I get overwhelmed. I get really moved just by kind of yeah. And that sort of strange and weird that I'm still there in some weird way. Like I'm an adjunct, I teach the non-majors, but I'm there. And I went back actually, Rick Murphy directed a show that I adapted for the children's theater called the selfish giant and other wild tales. W I L D E all the Oscar Wilde's fairytales and Alvin McCraney was in it. First of all, Oscar Wilde wrote, wrote, he wrote fairytales and I had actually adapted another book that somebody else ended up having the rights to.4 (39m 13s):And so Rick was like, well, you know, I know you really wanted to do that one, but if you find something else, I'll still direct it. And so I was like, okay, let's do this. And so I adapted us, grows fairytales. Awesome. For me to read, love, to read that I can find it somewhere. Might actually be a hard copy of it and I'd have to like scale or something. I don't know where it is. That was like 2002. I think there's also pictures of that. I also found which I didn't know the production history of the theater school online. You get the pictures for almost everything and they're almost all taken by John Bridges, right. Bridges, which is amazing. Cause these, I don't know why I only have these two printed out of the old whore and the sister-in-law from the good person of such one, which actually is like a happy, sad, weird story because I auditioned to be course and I was called back for it and I really wanted it.4 (40m 8s):And it was that awful time where they would post on our side of the theater school, glass doors that casting it like midnight. So we would come there while we waited and we went to the door and not only did I not get it, but one of my friends got it, of course. Cause how were, how was it not going to be your friend gets it? And, and then I see old whore and sister-in-law, and I just, I had heels on and I took them off and I started running and I like cut my feet up, running in the street crying and like old 18 years old. And your sister-in-law told her, well, that's another thing, you know, because of my voice and my larger frame, I've always been cast older.4 (40m 53s):Even in high school. I have a very traumatic story actually being in high school. And my father dying when we were doing cheaper by the dozen, which if you know the story, the dad leaves at the end and doesn't come back cause he dies and we're doing this play. And it was must have been like the end of the rehearsals right before we opened. And my director who was one of the English teachers at my high school, I remember being on the phone with her because I remember exactly where I was standing in my house. And instead of being like really sympathetic about my dad dying, she was talking about how I was the younger of three of the sisters and the girl that got the older sister, which is the part I wanted, who was the daughter of another English teacher who was always getting all the parts I wanted.4 (41m 34s):She didn't have as big of breasts. And my English teacher was like, maybe we can, you know, tape you down. And I thought, why didn't you just cast me as the older sister plus I was wearing this like beautiful, old, like 40 suit. That was my mom's was vintage suit that I loved. So it was kind of tight and probably did really show my frame. I was 15 and my dad had just died. This woman's telling me to tape my breasts down.2 (42m 7s):So yeah,4 (42m 7s):I always, I always got cast older and I can see what2 (42m 10s):He went down the road of wanting to do feminist theater. I mean, it sounds like from an early age, you were, you were made aware of double standards and beauty standards and all that kind of stuff.4 (42m 21s):1994, I think it was, I had graduated. I was auditioning. And it was when you had to look in like this paper for the auditions and there was like a line you called, oh God, I wish I could remember it. It was, you had to call this line and stay on hold forever and listen to all the audition notices. And there was an audition for pump boys and dynamics, which I was excited about. Cause I'd seen it when I was younger with my mom and I thought, oh, that's fun. And it literally said the men will be paid. And I got a fucking article in the Chicago Tribune about that.2 (42m 55s):You did. Oh, tell us about it. You just wrote about,4 (42m 60s):You know, they they're, they're like backpedaling about, it was like, well it's because the musicians they're going to get paid and the musicians are mad at first of all, now I'm thinking back like, why did the musicians have to be men? And you literally still wrote, the men will be paid. He didn't write, the musicians will be pay. So yeah. I don't know how I did it now. Now it's all kind of a blur. I just started calling places and I got a reporter from the Tribune to like talk to me and do a whole article about it.2 (43m 25s):Oh. So you're really tenacious. That's what I'm getting. I'm getting that. You get something, whether it's a goal or you're trying to write an injustice and you attach yourself to it,4 (43m 36s):Right. I'm an Aquarius moon. I know this. Isn't an astrology podcast, but I've looked at your side. I've learned in the last couple of years, I'm Scorpio, sun cancer, rising, thus the tears and then Aquarius moon, thus the righteous justice for all.2 (43m 52s):I love that. I love that you4 (43m 54s):Did tons of work after school ended up doing tons of work like in, in schools, after-school programs, writing and drama programs and things like that, which ended up taking me to go back to graduate school and get the Mae and education. But then that was like a lot of solo performance work I did too, with this woman, faith wilding, who was like, look her up. She likes started women house it, I think Cal arts and like the seventies, she has this famous piece where she rocks in a rocking chair and says, I'll, I'll wait until I'm old enough. I'll wait till I fall in the I'll wait until I'm married. I'll wait. You know, just incredible woman who taught this class called new feminisms. She taught one called body skin sensation.4 (44m 37s):I mean just, and so I was doing all this incredible work again, looking at myself and being a woman and being an actor and what the trauma that I'd been through. And then my thesis was doing a performance experiment with a bunch of young women from all over Chicago, like high school age women talking about their mothers and feminism and teaching them about feminism and1 (45m 1s):Well what, okay, so, so a question for you, first of all, I tidbit I have to share that we ha we spoke with, I think it was Joel Butler who was a stage manager and said that they would come out and walk to tease us. When we were waiting for the list to come home, they would pretend that they had news and go like the people who weren't involved. Anyway, I just have to say the whole thing was a setup. Like the whole thing was a fucking setup. So all it was like the hunger games and it was also that in itself was a play like a theatrical experience of man.4 (45m 41s):I don't really know how they do it now. It's all online.1 (45m 44s):It's all online. Yeah. They sent you an email with your casting, but I'm just saying like, when I look back, my little corner of the world was walk, walk, walk, look at the list. Feel like shit, walk, walk, walk. But there was a whole play happening around us of everyone knew what the fuck was going on. And it was part of the thing to have this sort of, yeah, it was, it was a production, it was a fucking production, a tragedy for most of us. Right? Like, and anyway, it just was interesting to hear the perspective, like everyone knew what was going on and everyone played a part is what I'm saying is what I get from the theater school. Like it was all back in the day. Anyway, it was all part of a thing.1 (46m 24s):And like, you get the idea2 (46m 26s):We're working through for some of the faculty who, you know, themselves couldn't realize their professional dreams. And you know,4 (46m 35s):That makes me so sad. I hope that it's really not1 (46m 40s):Okay. I mean, like it's not okay, but it's like, they, we, a lot of times we talk on this podcast, right. About the psychology of never fixing what you needed to fix in the first place inside of yourself gets fucking played out all over everywhere.4 (46m 54s):We are living in a new time of awakening and people being able to talk about their trauma. That was not that time. And that was also the time, like I said, where the teachers were coming to parties with us and drinking and somebody else was mentioned, somebody else was mentioning, you know, relationships between faculty and students. I only knew a couple of those instances, but yeah, the fact that they happen at all and yeah, yeah. I've found that like in my own teaching, like even, even in the last couple of years and I've been doing it for a long time, I just I've become so much more transparent. Like I talk about my own mental health issues or what's going on with me or I, I check in and check out with them every day. And it's like, what's something beautiful you saw today.4 (47m 35s):What, what are you going to do good for yourself when you leave this zoom glass, whatever, you know, like, so I think that as a culture we're evolving as facilitators instructors teachers, but yeah, we were there at a really hard, whoa time. I, for sure. I mean, you were there pretty shortly after that, but also I had some amazing experiences. I loved Betsy Hamilton. I loved John Jenkins. Jim. I still laugh. I actually had for two years cause Adam second year and fourth year, which nobody did because he randomly taught second year acting one year for some reason. And everybody had him for fourth year for what that was called, like ensemble or exit or whatever the hell it was called.4 (48m 19s):So I had him second and fourth year. He actually told me at one point, heard him out, what you're doing, why are you an actor? You should be a singer. And so then I sang in the, oh no, it was after I sang in this, it was Rob chambers thesis show Baghdad cafe. And I sang backstage live for just a couple parts of the show. Just Rob asked me to do this. I don't even remember how that all came about. And, and you know, Jim being the jazz and music aficionado called me to his office and was like, what are you doing? You should be a singer. Shouldn't be the act. But was that ever a, a w dream of yours to be a singer? I was in rock band called dominance clam I did say I did sing a lot that there was a summer.4 (49m 7s):I wasn't even 21. So I would go, I've sang it like the Metro and I wasn't really supposed to be in there and, and Zach wards and Steve Sal and all these people from my class came to see me. And yeah, I wanted to do that and I would audition for musicals and stuff after I graduated, but just like Marriott Lincoln Shire and all those like fancy places would never hire me. And I would always end up in shows where I sent, but they weren't musicals, you know? And I also think I have a little bit of trauma around singing. I started singing in my church after my dad died. I was the song leader in Catholic church. Believe it or not. And I would go out the night before and be like smoking and drinking with my friends and then sitting on the alter with like the breeze and like, like Christ, what the hell are we doing?4 (49m 55s):I would say at funerals, I sang at my mom's second wedding. I sang at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding, my other brothers. But yeah, I say I sang a lot. I haven't really been singing recently cause I, I usually end up crying when I sing. I had a very traumatic audition, 2008. I think it was where I cried when I was singing the song. And the song was about the girl's dad a little bit on the high note and it cracked and the casting director will remain nameless called my agent and told them that they thought I had mental problems and needed help. Okay. Again, this is something that would never happen today.4 (50m 37s):Right. But it wasn't that long ago, 2008, she also said that I was dressed in appropriately. I wore a forties style suit and a pillbox hat, because that was the period of the show. How is that inappropriate? That's someone who's. And why you calling my agent how intrusive to call my agent and tell them that you think I'm. And then the funny thing about it was I had just gone through a huge breakup and had moved and gotten a new job and all this other stuff was going on, but that had nothing to do with it. And that's nobody's business and I was moved by the song. And don't you want somebody, that's just somebody who, who is scared of their own emotions, like, correct. That's all that is. Yeah. So anyway, I digressed cause that's like post theater, school drama,2 (51m 20s):But I've had auditioning. Okay. So you arrived at the theater school at a tender young age. You4 (51m 28s):17. I was 17 because I have a November birthday, 17.2 (51m 32s):And you did your whole BFA there. Tell us about some of your show experiences.4 (51m 41s):Well, the one that I was going to talk about was the good person of such one. Cause oddly enough, it's the only one that I have printed pictures of. And I don't even remember when or how I acquired them. I think I got them from John Bridges cause he took all these pictures and that one of me is the sister-in-law. I don't know that that one was like a production photo. I think that was him coming up. And he saw me in this moment and like had to get this shot. So not only was I not cast as Shantay, which I want it to be now I'm the, the sister-in-law on the old whore. So I'm like, I'm going to kill this. I had 16 lines between the two characters, my old whore. If you look at that picture, I have a blonde wig. I didn't wear a bra. I have a tube, top, a pleather red skirt. I had these hoes that had a dragon up the side.4 (52m 22s):So it looked like I had a dragon tattoo on my leg and high, high red pumps that I think were mine actually from when I was in a beauty contest in high school anyway, and I got these earrings, oh my God. I think I found those earrings too. They were Chinese lanterns like that opened up, but they were earrings and they were huge. And I smoked a cigar. Oh. And I, I don't know if you remember this or if they did this when you were there, but after shows closed, mainly the main stage shows they had like this post mortem, postpartum, whatever you call it in the lobby and everybody and they would critique. I probably blacked that right out while you sat there and just took it.4 (53m 7s):And, but I don't know if it was during that or like after that, I would just be like walking in the halls and all these teachers, some that I had and some that I hadn't yet even had made a point of coming to tell me how excellent I wasn't that. Sure. And it was not false. It was not put on. But I mean, come on. Those people did not give compliments unless they really felt1 (53m 29s):Whatever. Yeah, yeah,4 (53m 30s):No. And I was like, yeah, cause I freaking killed it. Cause I took it so seriously. I was like, I'm going to make these roles so deep and so real. And if you, if you look on the production photos, they have this screen and, and, and, and people would make shadow play on the screen at the beginning of the show to show like the street life of the pool or the Sichuan and stuff. And I got to ride a bike and I rode a bike across and you see the shadow of the girl on the bike and I'm like, I still look at that. And I'm like that.1 (53m 57s):So do you think that's, I love hearing that. That's a great story for me to hear. For some reason, it just really warm, but warms my heart, but also talks about Gina's calling you on being tenacious. But do you think that that sort of set a tone for, cause what I'm getting from you is that like you're simultaneously a, bad-ass a bit of an outsider never given your chance. Never really given the chance to maybe in terms of outside casting, do what you could really do. So then you take what you get and then you fucking kill it. Does that ring a bell4 (54m 37s):Kind of? I think so. And I think I've always been that way really. And that also being in that show, Joe sloth directed, it was Bertolt Brecht. And really got me thinking about political theater and theater for social movement and theater for change. And I really believe when I graduated and I started doing work at the European repertory company, I believed that doing theater could change the world. You don't think that anymore change sometimes, you know, it beats you down pretty hard when you, when you work and work and work and work and you have to have three other jobs. Cause you're in a theater company that doesn't pay you any money.4 (55m 17s):And I, I still like the best work of my life was at that place. I was client of Nestor and Agamemnon for three years. I mean, I, Y you know, yeah, the best work of my life, but was it going to say that there's a different, and I think it's good. There's a different culture, a different mindset. Now students now would never graduate and say, yes, I'm going to be in a school or I'm going to be in a theater company for 12 years that never pays me and I'm going to have three or four jobs. And it was nice to kind of almost like a martyr, poor theater, Jersey, Petoskey board theater mindset of like, I'm an artist. Well, of course I'm, I'm struggling and I'm poor and I'm, you know, but I'm for the oppressed. And so I must experience that.4 (55m 59s):I don't, I dunno, like it just, I wonder how much I manifested that, right. Because I, I would have auditions for TV and film stuff that I would get close to and just not get, or it took me. I was, I think, 30 when I finally gotten a show at the Goodman or no, wait, I was 30 when I got at apt in Wisconsin. I think I was even older when I got in the show at the Goodman. But anyway, yeah. You know, eventually I have done shows larger theaters, but I still will say, I mean, people that saw the stuff I did at the European rep and I was like 24, 25, but I played clouded minister and it was Steven Berkoff's choir master. So it was like the most rockstar frickin, you know, I made my own costume.4 (56m 41s):It was, it was all like fishnet. And I just like punched my hands through fish nets to make sleeves and high heels and crazy Kabuki makeup. And I stood at the top of this ladder Agamemnon. And I came out at the end with like Hershey's syrup on my hands after I'd feel them. And I was like, I mean, if you saw that as hit, you were blown away, this was three years while we did it, like in a regular run. And then it was so popular. It was so popular that we did it on Friday, Saturday nights, like late night. And then we were doing, cause we want it to be a real repertory. So at the time we were doing Agamemnon Electra, uncle Vanya, and this show called all of them are just, yes.4 (57m 32s):And we would also change this. You remind me, okay, this is what I think Steven Davis was talking about when he said he was in four shows at the same time he, he was in, he was in all those shows and yeah. So, oh my God,2 (57m 51s):That's super intense4 (57m 53s):Looking at my notes2 (57m 54s):That like, though, while you're looking at your notes, I mean, was that draining, not just the number of shows you did4 (58m 4s):The physical training. Well, also I was, yeah, I was like a waitress during the day. I mean, I had a job I had to live and I was a waitress where I could only work lunches because all the shows were at nights. So lunches weren't as busy. And if it was really slow at lunch, I mean, so I would find myself every day while I was working calculating in my head, how many tables I had to have, how many tips I had to get just to make enough for that week to pay the rent, you know? And at the time I was living with two British guys, actually, they're the ones that brought me into the European rep, my friend, Charlie, Charlie Sherman, who is a actor and director in and out of Chicago for years. I met him when I was 18.4 (58m 44s):And I worked at cafe Roma, which was down the street from the school. That was my job. Cause I also worked when I was in school. And so when other people were like, we're going to the dead show. You want to come? I was like, you get, not only do I not have money for that, but I got to work all weekend. Right. So anyway, he, he knew that I wanted to do the play Caligula and he called me up one day and he's like, oh my God, this company is already doing it. Maybe you should audition. And this was right when I got out of school. So I auditioned and I got in the chorus and like the first week, the girl that was supposed to place, Zonea had gotten a movie and left and they were like, okay, now you're the lead. And I was like, okay. And that, and that was the company that I ended up being with for 12 years.4 (59m 27s):But it was exhausting as it was. I know we did. We were also all like drinking and smoking and going to the bar every night after the show is2 (59m 35s):You is a powerful force. I was just thinking the other day, remember when you used to wake up in the morning and no matter what had happened to you the night before, and you're like, okay, well, but anyway, it's time to do it today. I haven't had that feeling in years. I haven't had that. Like I can even when some we've once a day, I'm super excited about, I don't ha I don't wake up with this body, like readiness that I remember feeling in my twenties and thirties. Okay. So look at your notes. What are you, what are some of, some of the points that you wanted to get to?1 (1h 0m 7s):So if a showcase question, I have a showcase. Cause I'm obsessed. Since I live in Los Angeles, now I'm obsessed.4 (1h 0m 12s):Oh my God, are you guys going to try to avoid? No, no, no, no, no,1 (1h 0m 15s):No, no, no. I'm obsessed with the idea of the showcase because I made such an ass out of myself at my showcase that I, we went to LA, but I know you were in New York, but what was that? I'm obsessed with the showcase experience because I think it is really one interesting, but two where DePaul lacked in so many ways to getting people to the showcase and then after the showcase.4 (1h 0m 42s):Okay, great. This was before stars and all that. So nobody was collecting money for us. You just had to, you either had the money or you didn't. And so I was able to get enough money to buy a plane ticket, but then I wasn't going to have anywhere to stay. So my friend, Sarah Wilkinson, who was also at the school, but a couple of years behind me, her boyfriend, Daniel master Giorgio, who's also been in a lot of TV shows and on, on, you know, Lincoln stage and public theater, like this dude that went to Juilliard, actually I stayed in his dorm at Juilliard on the floor cause I didn't have money to stay anywhere. And I also could only stay for like a couple of days where like other people were like staying the rest of the week or going out and partying.4 (1h 1m 23s):And I remember having like just enough money to do one of the things people were doing, which was go to a jazz club with Frick and Jim Osstell Hoff, which I did. And that was really cool. The other part of that, that was kind of messed up was in the, in the, you know, audition class that Jane alderman, God rest her soul. And I love her dearly and became closer to her. I probably more after school than during school, but in our audition class where you brought, you know, monologues, I had brought this monologue and then she loved it and wanted me to do it and was just like, that's the, when you're doing. And then I had this total panic about it and was like, I don't think this is right. I don't think this shows me in a good light.4 (1h 2m 3s):I'm going to pick something else. And I don't remember what my other second or third choice was. I did, I did have something else. And I remember calling her on the phone. I don't know if I called her office or at home. And again, before cell phones. So I remember the little window I was sitting in my apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden on our little phone, talking to Jane alderman, all nervous. Cause I was going to tell her I'm not doing that when it's not right for me. And she still talked me into it and I did this monologue from Roger and me, the film. Did you see it?2 (1h 2m 34s):The Michael Moore movie4 (1h 2m 36s):About the Michael Moore movie, Roger,2 (1h 2m 40s):The documentary about the auto industry. I mean, yeah.4 (1h 2m 44s):Yes. And it was the poor woman, poor white woman who sold rabbits. Pets are mate. Right? Pets are me. Got it.2 (1h 2m 55s):That's what I did. Wait a minute though. I have a feeling.4 (1h 2m 60s):So I actually became, I probably did, but I actually came from where they had tried to, to suppress and to change and to mold me into anything. But this hit girl from Southern Illinois. And then I did that. Right. And that's what I, I wore my boots. I wear my cowboy boots. I think I had my friend's jacket on my long hair. And I came out and I was like pets for me. Oh my God, mortified, mortified. And I only got, I got like a couple of calls, like one was from like a soap opera. And then another one, I don't remember. That was another weird thing. Like the same thing with the casting call we waited in, I was in somebody else's hotel room.4 (1h 3m 42s):Cause remember I didn't have a hotel. I was staying on the other side of town and the dorm room of somebody who went to Julliard. And so we're in somebody's hotel room waiting for Jim Mostel Hoff. And whoever else was with us to come in with like this list, it was literal. It was like my notes here. There was just like tiny pieces of paper with like telling us who got what calls. Some people were like, got nothing, got 10 that too, about whatever. Yeah. And, and mine were not meetings. Mine were just like, these people want you to call them or send your resume. I was like, they already got my resume. Everybody got what, what? So, you know, like I wanted to move to New York. I wanted to be a New York fancy actor, you know? So that was like really devastating too.4 (1h 4m 23s):But then I was like, well, if I don't get that, I'm going to be an amazing Chicago theater actor. And I'm going to show everybody that Chicago theater is actually better anyway.2 (1h 4m 31s):Yeah. I don't to remember VAs if I've told this on the podcast before, but remember how I did that thing or if I didn't get any meetings. And so then I snuck into administrative office at DePaul after showcase and I found a list of all of our names and everybody had gotten, everybody had agencies or agents names written next to theirs, but not everybody was told that. Yeah. Yeah. So,4 (1h 5m 5s):Oh, podcasts, then couldn't see my face gaping. Now what, what did you do? Did you tell, did you, what?2 (1h 5m 12s):I swallowed it and carried it around resentfully for the next 20 years. Yes ma'am I did my God. And you know, who knows? Maybe there was an important reason for that. Maybe it was, these are shady characters. I don't know what it would have been, but I, I know that I would have4 (1h 5m 36s):That you didn't feel. Yeah. I feel so bad for you that you didn't feel like you could, you know, go further, ask more. I don't know. Probably2 (1h 5m 44s):Carolyn it probably didn't occur to me. I'm sure it did. I'm sure. The way I thought about it was, well, this has happened now. It is over, this is the thing that it is forever such. I just, I would have never thought that way. I would have never thought to advocate for myself. I mean, I fought to find out,4 (1h 6m 4s):Snuck in there. You thought, well, enough of yourself to sneak in there,2 (1h 6m 9s):You know, whatever. That's that's for me to figure out because I, I, I that's what, but that's what I did with it. I, I took it. I took a carried it around like a shame instead of, oh, by the way, I didn't mean to blow anybody up. I just needed to say like, what's the deal? Like what happened happened, right. Yeah.1 (1h 6m 29s):I feel like it's interesting. It is. It is. It is just really, now that we have this podcast, we spend a lot of our time being like, well, yeah, what's the deal. Why did that happen? And, and what,4 (1h 6m 41s):I wonder what John Bridges or somebody like that would say about that.2 (1h 6m 46s):I I'm sure. John Bridges, who is a theater school loyalist to the end when say that, that I, that I misunderstood. He tells them he doesn't tell the truth. I'm saying, listen. And, and by that I've said a thousand times we understand that we couldn't possibly know all of the factors that went into any decisions like casting and stuff like that. And that there are certain things that happened. That felt terrible. That were for my own good, you know, but Yeah, because getting back to that whole thing about casting, I mean, I'm sure that the guiding principle in their minds was, this is what it's like, you know, you want to move to New York.2 (1h 7m 33s):I mean, Don, we had another person on here who told us living in New York. You, you you'd have to go wait in line in the morning at a theater so that you could get your audition later. And if you wanted to have, it had to be a lunchtime thing, so you could leave work. And those sl

Tune into Bob and Nick as they discuss Champions, Antagonists and.... Man-bat? CreditsAuthors:Tim Byrd, Ken Cliffe, Ed Hall, Todd Mayville, Ethan Skemp, Mike Tinney, and Pocahontas Firestein van Elfinburg della Escondido, Esq. Development: Ethan SkempEditing: Ed McKeogh  Vice President in Charge of Production: Richard ThomasArt Directors: Aileen E. Miles & Lawrence SnellyLayout & Typesetting: Robby Poore (with miniscule assitance from Aileen E. Miles)Art: BarbArmata, Ash Arnett, Stuart Beel, John Bridges, Dennis Calero, Richard Case, Steve Casper, John Cobb, James Daly, Mike Danza, Tony DiTerlizzi, Mike Dringenburg, Jason Felix, Richard Kane Ferguson, Lee Fields, Scott Fischer, Rebecca Guay, Matt Haley, Tony Harris, Quinton Hoover, Mark Jackson, Brian LeBlanc, Larry McDougall, Anson Maddocks, John Matson, Key Meyer Jr., Jeff Miracola, Jesper Myrfors, Alan Pollack, William O'Conner, Jeff Rebner, SCAR (Steve Carter & Antionette Ryder), Alex Sheikman, E. Allen Smith, Ron Spencer, Ron States, Joshua Gabriel Timbrook, RIchard Thomans, Jamie Tolagson, Drew Tucker, Lawrence Allen WilliamsCover Design: Lawrence SnellyCover Art: Joshua Gabriel Timbrook Purchase it here: Rage: Warriors of the ApocalypseSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/25yearsofvampirethemasquerade/posts)

Having to be in North Dakota is bad enough. For Lee Clay it got even worse when he had the misfortune of befriending John Bridges, a true psychopath if there ever was one...

Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University,  Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington,  Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it. So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean? Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion, Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually, Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down? Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything. Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him and then he ended up not finishing the program. So I was actually the first lighting master's lighting student since they had left the Goodman. Speaker 1 (3m 19s): Great. Speaker 2 (3m 20s): Yeah. And I had, so I'd been working in Houston doing an internship and Kevin Rigdon, who was the, at the time the resident designer at Steppenwolf had come down and did a show production of our town, which ultimately became a very important part of my life, my adult life in my own career. And so he came down and did our town with Jose Cantero directing. There was this huge thing. And I thought Kevin was great. I thought he was funny. And I loved his work and I was really interested in it. And he was adjunct at the theater school. And he actually told me not to, he was like, don't come I'm adjuncts. And they're just starting this master's program. You kind of want to find a place that's that's has more stuff going on. And then when I decided to apply to grad school the next year, for sure, I was looking at different places and somebody gave me the advice that you should really look at the people who design the team, the design work of the people that you're going to study with, because that's what they're going to teach you. Right. Great, Speaker 1 (4m 17s): Great advice. Speaker 2 (4m 18s): It was, it was really great advice. And the other was to look at the market, right? Like look for a market that you would want to be in. Like, you can get an amazing degree in Idaho. There's actually really good programs there, but the market's not there. And I'll tell ya. I did not realize until I was a college professor. This is so like blind of like the blindness to your privilege. Right. I did not understand the benefits I had in Chicago from going to school in Chicago until I watched my students graduating into it. That's when I realized what I could do for them. And I realized what my professors did for me. Speaker 1 (4m 54s): So interesting. I mean, I think, I think we don't, we don't ever, I don't know anyone that's really hipped. Maybe kids nowadays are young adults are really hip to it, but like, yeah. I mean, I didn't think of thinking of like, okay, well what, what is the sort of the place where I'm landing and who are my connections there? But I am learning now at 46 in Los Angeles that the people that I'm really connected to here in the industry are all from Chicago. Mostly a lot of them are from the theater school. It's crazy. Speaker 2 (5m 25s): It's so interesting. I, it's funny. I've been listening to your podcasts and what I love is like, I feel like it's the best Facebook ever. It's like, so, cause I'm like, oh, listen to all these hour long interviews with people, all due respect to someone who might forgotten existed. Right. You know, like I tumbled down the whole like conversation about the religion. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot all about that. I knew I knew those people. Right. It's just not my life anymore. Right. Speaker 1 (5m 49s): I mean, I I'm. Yeah. I'm also shocked. Like we have people on that, like remember us that I have no recollection of having with. And I think I always talked it up to excessive drinking and dirt back in my day. But like, I think it's just like, that's not our life anymore. Right. We're in a different time, different lifetimes. Speaker 2 (6m 10s): I took it. There's like three levels of people there's like from school. It's like the people that I still know and have to remind myself, I went to school with like, that's the connection. I there's the people that I, that I have no idea what happened to, so I love when they're on your podcast and then there's the people who are famous. So I think that I know what they're doing. Like I have a feeling, I feel like I know what Judy is up to, but I don't know what she's up to. I just know, Speaker 1 (6m 33s): Right. That she works all the time. Then we went to school with her. Right, right. It's so funny. It's, it's a such a wild thing. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to go, Speaker 2 (6m 42s): I'm going to go to grad school. And I looked at Chicago, I looked at DePaul because I really liked Kevin. And then I also looked, I was looking really heavily at Carnegie Mellon and, and he went to, I went to one of those. It's funny. I listen to you guys talk about it with the actors. But I went to one of those, like Roundup audition, interview things in Houston. And I interviewed with both schools at the same time. And Carnegie Mellon was like, well, we've been teaching this class for 20 years. It's a great class. And we've been doing this other thing for 20 years and it's awesome. And I was like, oh my God, you're so boring. And the program is actually massive and huge and revitalized now. But I think at that moment in time, it was just not, they were had a lot of faculty had been there. And then I went to the DePaul one and I talked to John Bridges. I was like, I offer you Chicago. Like I offer you the energy of John Bridges and Chicago. And I was like, oh, this is so much more interesting to me. Yeah. You know? And then I got lucky because what I didn't know is that John Colbert is like, I call him the Clark Kent of lighting design, because he seems super mild-mannered. And he's like Superman, that guy is a genius And a master teacher. And so the fact that I got to study with him for three years and the part of it was him creating curriculum that he felt I needed, even when, and I have these moments with my students now where I'm like, this is what you need to do. And they're like, I don't think that's what I think I would do better. I think this is what I need to study. And John would be like, yeah, you need that other thing. You know, I actually, years after school, a couple of years later, I applied for a, there was a, it's funny, it's funded by the NDA. So you can't call it a, it can't be a grant or fellowship. It just has to be like a program that you're on. But it was one where the theater communications group got money from the NDA and young, like early career designers and directors to observe, assist other artists because you can't make anything. If it's the NDA. Right. It's like the rules that came out of all this stuff in the nineties. Right. And John called me up and was like, you need to apply for that. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally applied for that. I was thinking next year. Right. Like you need to apply this year. And I was like, well, yeah, but see, here's the reason and this and that thing. And he was like this year and I was like, but really I was like, you know, this next year. And I was like, this year, this year I'll do it this year. And then I got it. Speaker 1 (9m 4s): Was it amazing? It Speaker 2 (9m 5s): Was, it's an interesting thing. It was amazing in some ways. And in some ways it like slows your career down because you have to do six months worth of work within two years and you for the money and you get paid as you go, but you don't get to make anything. So it can like become a thing where you're like getting to know these amazing people and working with these amazing people. But you also, can't Speaker 1 (9m 28s): Interesting Speaker 2 (9m 29s): And make it, you know, like it slows down like what you can do as your own artist. I will say though, that, as I'm saying these words, even I'm thinking about the people that I worked with and how they function in my life and how important they'd been, like how important some of them still are Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Still in your life. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9m 45s): They gave me an extension on it as well, because that was also the time that I, I was the associate designer on the first production of top dog underdog. And that was a show that they were actually TCG was trying to get somebody in that room. And they were being like, well, we don't really want somebody to observe us. And I got offered to work on it, but I had worked with the whole team before, so they wouldn't let me do it, but they let me extend it. So they were pretty generous about like, yeah, I'll be making things happen. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And I got into DePaul and so I came to DePaul, I came up and visited and it was, Speaker 1 (10m 16s): And you, you, did you work with, was there, were you working with someone, a lighting designer at DePaul named Keith? Speaker 2 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when somebody talks about him, I don't know if it was you or Gina talking about him. We'll talk about seeing the scout, the Macbeth that we did that I did with Stacy Cabalero who I, who was my best friend from grad school. Oh yeah. When I think about grad school, like Shawna Flannigan and I were roommates for years after, but, but Stacy and I were super close. We did. So we did like so many of our shows together there and he was talking, it was it, you that he was telling that he commented on the costume. Gina was sitting next to him, but she was talking about it. She was like, and Keith param. And he was like, he was looking at it. He was like, oh my God. And I was like, I literally was listening to the podcast like, oh God, did he say something about my lights? What did he say? What did he say? Then? Then it was about Stacy. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. One of my close friends still. Speaker 1 (11m 14s): So yeah, he was the first person that made me really interested in lighting. And he, when we closed the show, the yellow boat together, he gave me a print of his drawing of the lighting, like, oh wow. With lighting. And I still got it framed. And it was, I was like, oh, well this kind, because I think personally that as actors, we're, we, we have this thing of like, our ego is like crossed all the time. So then we, we have, we have an inflated sense of ego really that we have to build. And we think that acting is the most important thing. And it was the first time it, my land that's garbage. And the first thing to person to really say, to show me like, oh my gosh, look, this is all part of a huge deal. Like I am not the huge deal that lighting is, everything has its place. And then we come together, but I was like, oh, this is, this is an art that really ties the whole show together. Like really? And it's like unsung magic. And I think a lot of actors anyway, just think that the lights up here and that nobody is behind them being the artist, creating that at least young actors, Speaker 2 (12m 30s): Young ones. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think you're right about that in school, it's often Speaker 1 (12m 35s): Lighting for you. Like, what is it, what was it about that? Speaker 2 (12m 39s): You know, it's funny, my mother at one point was like having this big guilt thing that she had never encouraged me into it when I was younger. But like all of the signs did, like, unless you knew this was a thing, it didn't make sense. I was, I loved theater. My grandmother studied theater in New York in the thirties and she taught college. Yeah. She'd studied with a bunch of amazing people. She didn't work professionally, but, but she would take us to theater. Right. So it was a huge influence for my mother then for me. And I loved being an audience member. I never wanted to be on stage. And I haven't been a couple of times. And also now that I'm like, in my fifties, it's so much easier. Like I'm much more willing to jump off the right off the cliff and try whatever. Cause why not? What is it gonna embarrass me right now, please, please. If I didn't embarrass myself to death in my twenties, I think we're good now. You're good. So, yeah, but I, I, I just always like things that related. So I, like, I was interested in photography at one point, but I loved reading. I loved going to the theater. I have this, I was terrible in high school. It trig. I like, oh, I got like, I barely got through trigonometry class. And the second semester of the math track I was on was like analytical or spacial geometry. And it was like, I was a savant. I was like, that's what that 3d grid looks like. I can see that thing in space and I could answer, am I my teacher? And I were both like, what is up? How do I know this really have a good sense of space? And so if you look at the combo of all those things, they all really go together into lighting design. If you, if you know that thing. So when I went to undergrad, I'm in San Antonio at this small college Trinity university, super liberal artsy, sort of the opposite of your, your, what do we call them? We call academic classes and academics. I feel like we did, but they definitely, yeah. Academics. I really was. I had a lot of intense like philosophy classes and religion classes, all super helpful for the career that I have. But I also, my first semester took a intro to theater class and I loved the lighting. And then the second semester we were, I had to register dead last, like first year, dead last, you can't get anything. And a friend of mine that was in my end theater class was like, well, I'm going to, she was going to be a high school drama teacher, her name's Emily Goodpasture. And she decided that she was going to end. So Gilbert and good pasture registering last. She was like, I'm taking this sledding class. Cause I know I have to take all of the design classes and the acting classes for my future career as a drama teacher. And I think she take this learning class with me and I did. And then throughout college I would do other things, but I kept coming back to lighting. I just, I love the magic of the way light reveals form. I love looking at tons of different kinds of light bulbs. You know, my friend wants me to come to become Tik TOK famous and support us by telling people how to light their homes. Speaker 1 (15m 32s): Well, here's the thing that I, I actually, when you just said that, I have to say like, I was like, oh, I wonder what she thinks about filters and add tic-tac and the way people use light and could do you look at photos and videos and things and say, oh, that would be so much better if you just lit it like this. Are you able to do do that? Speaker 2 (15m 53s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely, yeah. Most things in my life revolve around, you know, I always laugh cause I still go in theaters and look up at the lights and people are like, oh, I saw you looking at the lights. And I'm like, do you look at the actors? Of course, I look at the lights, I'm trying to figure out like the craft of what they did or you know, or what the equipment that they got to work with was, and yeah, but I can't, even though I could probably find another career with lighting that is so much more lucrative and I'm sure that that is true, right? The best part of my job for me still is that everyday when I go to work in theater, actors tell stories in front of me on stage live. And that is my favorite thing. I love going to plays. I love seeing performance and I love it live. So the fact that I get to be connected to that in some way and another character in that for me is really awesome. Speaker 1 (16m 39s): That's fantastic. And I I've never thought about it that way, that like, I mean, obviously I've thought about that a little, that the lighting is another character, but again, it's like, there are, there is a human and maybe a team of humans behind that character and that it, that you enjoy hearing the live stories being told. And that's why the theater versus, you know, film and TV, right? Like it's not, I mean, I guess you could still, it could be live on set, but like, you wouldn't be like the designer of a show. I don't even know how it works in television and film. Like the lighting people. Is there a lighting designer behind film and TV? Speaker 2 (17m 21s): There are no. And because there's so many more people on a film, I, and or television, there's more people encompass the single jobs that we do in theater, the DP it'd be the DP and the gray and then the interest and then editing is also a part of what we do. So, so all of those things sort of come together in that way. It's funny, David Swayze, do you remember Dan Swayze? He, so he's in film now and he's doing super well. Yeah. He's an art director and film and, and we have not kept up. We keep up actually better than I do with a lot of people, but it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, even with the pandemic, it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, he was talking one time about what he loved about doing television or film, he specifically film. And the thing that he loves about it is that it's, it's so immediate and you can make changes. So like, you can say like, oh, we need to, we, instead of doing it this way, we think this would look better and you can actively do that thing, which in theater set designers can't do that. But the rest of us can, I was like, you're talking about lightening design. I can make the change in the instant. You know, sometimes I have to say, I have to hang a light for tomorrow, but sometimes I can do like, hang on. My moving light will do that for us. Right. This second, you know? So I get to, I get to, it's funny though, we were like super technical or technological. And then all of a sudden it was like projections and sound, which were, you know, a slide projector and a yes. And you know, MiniDisc jumped us and they can craft in the room and we still can't craft in the room in the same way that they can, which I'm actually kind of grateful for. I like that. We get to say like, we're going to think on that. We're gonna let us Speaker 1 (18m 60s): Oh, wait. And think on that. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Cause I, I, yeah, I liked the idea too of you're you're like a problem solver. Oh Speaker 2 (19m 13s): Yes. Right. Speaker 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. I love problem solvers. I think that they're really great to have in a room because I think it teaches everybody that like there are mysteries to be solved in the theater. And there are people that are trained to solve them that aren't me and they, and that we can work together. But problem solvers, we need the problem-solvers in, in rooms, in the theater. Like it's fantastic. Speaker 2 (19m 46s): But you know, it's interesting. We solve different problems, problems. Like I was years ago, we have this event on the last day of the semester, second semester at Columbia called manifest, which is this massive arts festival. It spills onto the streets. We have puppet show puppet, parades down the street. And we have, it's really fantastic. Photography has like gallery exhibits, super fun. This school is crazy. And I love it. And years ago it poured down rain and they had had this thing that they were going to do. This is pretty so long ago that I think it was 2009, actually it poured down rain. And they'd had this event that they were going to do called manna text. And they were going to, people could submit their phone numbers and they would text and be like, go to this stage. And you'll, if you're the 10th person there you'll get a thing. And texting was still like, we, it, wasn't certainly not the, the way we lived our lives. Right, Speaker 1 (20m 39s): Right. Speaker 2 (20m 41s): Yes. It poured down. And as soon as it pours, like we had an outdoor stage and I always, I, I produced it for the department. I thank God. I don't have to anymore. But I, I had, I always kept the stage free inside so that if anything happened, we could move it in. So we moved everything in and we didn't have lights up in the theater. And I, so I walked downstairs and I started hanging some lights and doing some things and I was working with, oh, this is funny. I was working with Kendra Thulin oh yeah. He was working with me on that because Kendra and I worked together again, somebody, I almost forget I went to school with. And so I started hanging the lights and everything and she's just staring, like she can't do it. And my kids walked in, my students walked in and I was like, okay, here's what I need you to do to finish this up, do this, do this, do this, hang that, get these gels. These from the sides, this from the front, I'll see you guys. They were like, great. And Kendra and I walked out to do something. And she was like, that was amazing. And I was like, it's what we know how to do. And then five hours later Manitex has fallen apart. They can't figure out what to do. And I'm standing there. I've got these two seasoned subscriptions to the department, which I'm pretty sure were free anyway, back then. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with these? And I turned there, we're doing a musical theater thing. And I turned to a couple of minutes, you'll theater students. And I was like, get these to an audience member. Somehow they went on stage and made this hilarious, adorable competition. That was like a trivia thing, like trivia about musical theater. Right. And they gave them to the winner. And I was like, we all, I, my students would have turned to the human next to them and been like, do you have these, you know, that's why we're all together. That's why Columbia administration is constantly like, you're you have too many majors in your department. It's so unwieldy. And it's like, because it takes a lot of people to create an entire world. Speaker 1 (22m 26s): It really does. That is really true. And everybody solves different problems. Like nobody that does it does. It does take a bunch of people. That's really interesting. And then when you graduated, what did you do? Like, were you like, I mean, really your career kind of took off. I mean, you're co you're pretty fancy lighting cider. So how did you, did you just like, love it and people loved you and you started getting jobs or like how did it work? Speaker 2 (22m 55s): Yeah. There was a couple of stages in it. I, you know, it's funny. I did the big funk and what's hilarious about that to me is that when we did it, I was like, where are we? We are in the front end of someone's apartment. It is bizarre. These people live here in the back of this place and they're letting us do a play in the front and like flash forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I am friends with those people. Amazing. I did some moment in conversation. I was like, that was your place that I did that weird shit show with the weird lights in the cans. Like, so I started doing storefront and I S I had started assisting at Steppenwolf while I was at school. So I had, I, at the time that I was in school, I had a foot in both bootcamps. And so it is, I definitely, yeah, I definitely was splitting my time. And so I started doing more assisting it's definite wall. And in the fall, he'll never hear this the fall, right after graduation, I assisted somebody who sort of well known to be difficult business of lighting side. And for whatever reason, we absolutely hit it off. And he is like my brother today. And so I started traveling with him. I started working on projects all over with him and because he was difficult, theater companies would bring me to projects that they wouldn't necessarily bring an assistant on normally, because he's really, he's like the best in the business, but they knew I could handle him. And they knew that I could handle him by saying, I need you to leave the theater right now. And I'll take care of things while you sit her down. And so we, I would go to, I went to New York with him starting in 1998. I assisted actually my second Broadway assisting job was with him. My first one was from Steppenwolf. So I simultaneously was with Steppenwolf and him. And so my assistant career was like really amping up. And I was in these important rooms like Suzan-Lori parks and George Wolfrey top dog underdog with at the time the first production was Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright. And then those staff replaced Jeffrey or repost on. And so I was getting to do a lot of those really awesome things. And simultaneously I was doing storefront, right. And, and honing my skills and building my skills and knowing how, like I could watch the people that assisted make these massive shows with so much stuff. And I would think about those ideas. It's exactly what they tell you to do in school. But yeah. And then I would go back to the storefront with 17 lights and some candles, and I could make something that was really interesting because I had a much stronger sense of how equipment worked. You know, Keith always says that his graduate school was assisting per the years that he did. And he particularly assisted this amazing designer named Jim Ingles. And he's like, that was my grad school because I learned how to use our tools and then how to pull back from them. Speaker 1 (25m 35s): And how did you get, I think for people listening, they're going to be, well, how, how did she get to assist at step it, well, how did she get in the room at Steppenwolf? Speaker 2 (25m 44s): It was that guy, Kevin, the one that was my, you know, he taught us, but he, I, he knew I came up here and I reached out and I was like, I really, I want to have, you know, I, I want to work with you. I want to learn from you. And he, it's funny because now he's in Houston. I met him, but he is, he was great. And my second year, because the guy I came in with dropped the program, my second and third year, I was all alone. Like my classes were by myself. And so what John would often do was put me in a class with someone else. So that, like, there was a, for some reason, the third year BFA lighting class in my second year only had one wedding student. So we paired for the class in the class time, we had somebody to sort of like riff on and talk to, and our levels were different. But a lot of the projects that we did, like we spent one full quarter just in the light lab, which we usually, most semester, most years we did just making projects. And like, here's a song like the song by next week, here's a musical theater song. You you're lighting it as if it's musical theater, somebody on there, like something has to represent the chorus, visually something has to represent, how do you, how do you actually change the song as if it's a stage? And we have like little blocks of wood and like little people and things that we would put up and make these vignettes. And so she and I were just sort of at different levels on that, but Kevin was the teacher and it was, I actually had a one-on-one with him. And he said at the beginning of the year, he was like, I just want your, your resume is going to look good when you finish this class. And that was crazily enough. It was the 20th anniversary of Stephan wall. So I was the second assistant on very child. Gosh, that to Gary Sinise director, I worked on every man that Frank Lottie directed, I worked on the Libertine, how much was in. I did, I was an assistant second assistant on all of those shows. And then by the fourth show of that season, I ended up the first assistant who, who stayed with him for a while, but was sort of grooming me to be the next step. And that's how that sort of works sometimes is like we, our assistants move up and become our full peers. And then we train somebody else up in that way. And I, by the fourth show, I was actually getting paid while I was doing it for credit and stuff at school. So I think in those days I wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it today. They would be like, what, what? Speaker 1 (27m 56s): Right. But then you were like, yeah. Speaker 2 (27m 58s): So they didn't know. Right. Speaker 1 (28m 0s): They weren't keeping track of that is so cool. Speaker 2 (28m 3s): So I got to do that. Speaker 1 (28m 4s): Yeah. And then, and then did you, did you, what was the journey like to, did you live in New York? Like, did you live in New York, ever full time? Speaker 2 (28m 13s): Not full time. I spent a lot of time crashing on David Swayze's spare, like his studio floor. I did a lot of that for many years and, and other friends, new Yorkers are particularly skilled in the art of letting you stay with them. And so now, I mean, I joke that I'm the Heather Gilbert school for wayward or Heather Gilbert home for wayward Chicagoans, because I there's so many people who move out of Chicago and come back to do a show and I let them, I let them live in my spare room. My friend, Samantha, who's this brilliant costume designer. I mean, for like two and a half years, we were like, she was like my, my roommate. She came and went, I have somebody coming on the Saturday after Thanksgiving while she does a show, you know? Cause I feel like I'm giving back for all those times that I crashed in New York. So I did a fair amount of assisting and stuff there. I've only, I guess I've only designed about three times there actually. One of them was pretty significant. So yes. Speaker 1 (29m 9s): Talk about that. Let's talk about that. How did that come about? What, what, yeah. That journey of life. Speaker 2 (29m 17s): Yeah. My other job in grad school was I was bartender. I, yeah. I used to bartend at a place called bar San Miguel up on Clark street. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a non-equity bar. And I started bartending there after, I guess, had our second year. It's funny during that huge heat wave of 95, I went there for the first time with Chris Freeburg and Kate McKernan. Yes. Half a year later I was working there and, and Cromer used to come in there cause it was a theater bar and I met him there. And so our relationship started 26 years ago. Holy shit. Speaker 1 (29m 48s): As tender in a patron. Speaker 2 (29m 50s): Yeah. That's how we met. That's amazing. Yeah. He loves that. I think he loves it. That's part of our origin story because it's funny when we, when he tells it and writes it like in a letter of recommendation or whatever, and, and we didn't work together until 2003, but we've known each other. At one point we quit smoking at the same time. And at one point that was like the most significant thing. And then all of these things that we've done have happened since, but now I'm also still thinking that maybe the most significant thing that we ever did together was quit smoking. That's fantastic. Speaker 1 (30m 18s): It's very significant. And it also, you did it together and it's a real bonding experience when you quit. Something like that. Speaker 2 (30m 26s): Yeah. It was tough. It's been, it's been, it's been 19 years this year. Congratulations. So we started then, and that was the moment also that like I did a show with him finally, and we did this miracle on 34th street that we all were super in need of money at Christmas time. And he wrote this adaptation and it started Tracy Letts, which we think is like the funniest thing in the world now. And so we did that show and then when I started, and then I started teaching shortly thereafter and I started, I did, and I went to LSU for two years in Baton Rouge. And when I came back because I loved teaching students, they're the best thing in the world. Higher education can make you want to pull your hair out. And state schools are often really like that if you're in the arts. So it was a struggle, but I came back here to Columbia, which I had only vaguely known of when we were in school. And that's, I didn't know that everybody who got cut came here until I was teaching here. And then it was funny because when I would, I don't remember when the cuts system stopped, but whatever point it did was after I started here, because you would be doing like the summer sort of advising with incoming students, you do your, your couple of sessions in the summer and kids would come in and their credits would be this really weird number. And I was like, I don't understand why that's not three credits, but it was like two points, 1.3 threes and 2.3 twos. And it was sort of like thirds, but not even HOAs. And I, and I found out that was, that was the sign of somebody who was cut from the theater school because it was the theater school classes that were those year long things, trying to get them into semesters. Right, right. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that's what happened to everybody who quit. And so, so, but David talkier and so we, we start teaching a collaboration class together, all really. I didn't know, that's cool for directors and designers. And so then we were going to do a show here at school together, but he, and we started the process and we were like, live, we got to live what we teach them. We got to, we got it. We got to collaborate like that. And we had to pull out of the show because he took adding machine to New York instead. And then he came home from adding machine. And that's when he had been talking about our town that he was going to do with the hypocrites, which was, I worked a lot with the artistic director of the hypocrites I had. I had a long relationship. I, I mean, he's still my friend, he's just second grader, John grainy, Sean and I, Sean was simultaneously, the two of them were sort of like my biggest income and my income through them. And so I, so, but I wasn't a part of the hypocrites. I was eventually, I was not at that point. Right. And he, he kept talking to the show, but he had to ask the resonance designer, but the resident designer who's my sweet friend now said no. And they brought me on to our town and you know, it's sort of like, the rest is history. Like we, David and I have a long history at that point and we have a, we had a friendship, you know, but we now, you know, we had like the let's let's, you know, talk on the phone and watch Dexter in the middle of the night friendship a little bit before that. But we now have done, I think I, I counted when we opened bug last week and I think we've talked 16 shows together and, and some of them have been really life-changing for both of us. So yeah, Speaker 1 (33m 37s): That is fantastic. And I feel like if you find a collaborator that just I'm recently have, have started working with someone that I just, I work with Gina, and then I work with other people, but like when you find someone like that, where you, you just, it just works out. Like it just works. There's something about it. The only thing you can think of is like, you know, it is some sort of, it almost feels like some kind of cosmic thing that comes together that you are able to do. Great. You can facilitate each other's great work without ending the relationship and having crazy, you know, fights and things that don't lead to total destruction. That's magic. Speaker 2 (34m 24s): Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting cause directors go, I think they probably do this to actors too. If they have a deep relationship more than anything, they go stuff's right there. Like they just stopped calling and you're like, come on. Right. And Cobra, at one point it was in New York and working with new people and our town had come to a close. Right. Which, cause that sort of kept us together for a long time. We did that show that was over over seven year period of time, all the venues. And so we, we had, you know, we'd, we'd, we'd had a connection and we had done other couple of other new shoot new shows within that time. Yeah, sure. It wasn't just our town. Right. And then we'd done our streetcar that was really successful. And the Sam Rockwell was in really isn't that crazy. I did a person who was Sam Rockwell, who was so lovely. I came up and was like, oh my God, the lighting is so beautiful. I was like, oh, so I will be heard in it. So how do you know? But, Speaker 1 (35m 17s): But he, but even to say it, you know, like what a sweetheart? Yeah. I was at a wedding with him cause he was in a movie with my boss and he was lovely, a lovely and like a pro like a real, Speaker 2 (35m 31s): So I get so excited for him now all the time. So, but we had healed David actually sort of like wasn't calling. And I was like, oh, are we not going to work together anymore? And it's funny because I think in the history of our lives, it will, it's actually a blip, but it felt like a long time. And I was like, okay, well I guess that's okay. Like relationships do shift and, and partnerships do add, nobody wants to somebody forever. Absolutely. But I was like, I actually, we are, I am, you know, I was not a Columbia kid. I'm like, I have a pocket in a thousand ways. But yeah, I did work. I do teach at Columbia and I am a Sheldon Patinkin person. I'm one of his people and Sheldon taught you, you see each other's shows. That is what we do for each other. Right. I was like, I'm going to still see your shows. Right. We have way too much of a history for our friendship to die because we're not, we're not doing right. Right. So I kept, I stayed around. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm going to come to me. I'm going to see your things. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go see the band's visit or I'm going to go also, I get to see the bands visit then come on. Right. Or I'm going to see your comeback, little Sheba with Derek  in Boston because I love that. You know? And so when the time rolled around, I found out he was doing a production of next to normal at writers theater. And I loved that show and I had done a production of it that I kept texting him, being like, oh my God, I wish I were doing your production of this. Not that I didn't think that one was great, but it was much more of the sort of flash and trash version. Right. And I wanted to see David's version where there's like a dining room table and people around it. Right. You know? And I just, I was, so I texted him as soon as I heard from our friend Lilianne was like, I will do the show. And he woke up the next morning and he was like, he texted me back. I was like, it was kind of a non David text. I was like, this is very specific and kind, and I he's listing these things, but he was like, these are the, I woke up this morning and I saw your text. And I called Michael Halberstam, who was still the artistic director at the time. And so we have to hire Heather for the show and he said, okay, but we already hired Keith. And I was like, yeah, I fucking knew it. I knew I was going to be too late. I'm reading this text. And David's like, and I screwed up. And these are the reasons why, and he was like, writer's theaters are theater. It's our place. Which just so you know, he'd just done as many shows with Keith as he has with me. But he went through and he was like gave me their reasons that were really lovely. And then he said, Williamstown is going to reach out about a show, Adam rap's new play. And I was like, Williamstown really paid nothing. Why is that my constellation prize? I was totally annoyed. And then Williamston production was a struggle. Like we did this by the way, the play is the sound inside because we have not said the name of it if anybody's listening. And we, so we were, it was a struggle, you know, you have to do it very quickly. It's a big play for, for the, the lead actress in it and the actress in it. And, and it was a struggle for her. She, she definitely was acting out a little bit. Yeah, sure. And, and so, and you don't have much time and you're doing it with people who are, you know, these interns that I it's sort of famously a conversation in the industry right now about specifically how William sound carries those interns. So you're feeling guilty and also they don't know what they're doing as well. So there's a lot of pressure on that. Right. And I loved it. I loved that place so much. I read that play and I was like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's this beautiful play about what we do when we were in need in our loneliness. And it's just, it's ju it just hit me. I don't know how Adam Rapp, who's this like hyper alpha masculine male actually has that insight into, I think, because it's insight into humanity and thus, he can change it into he's like, well, women feel the same thing men do. We're right. We're not different creatures. Right. So, yeah. Wow. And then, and then the show moved to New York a year later to Broadway to studio 54, which my God, I got to crawl around in studio 54. It took me crawl over that building. I was like, she'll be everything. Where did they keep the drugs? I'm so cute. Right. Right. Yeah. And we, I went up into the there's a dome and I got to go up into the dome and look down into the space and see where they store all the lights. And I got the full tour one day. It's great. The crew is the best crew in the entire world. And we did this beautiful play and people were, you know, it's funny. I, I actually was just, I submitted an application last night at 11:58 PM for full professorship. Like that's the highest level of, of teaching here. Yeah. And when you get tenure, you have to apply for that. But then once you've got it, you actually don't have to apply for anything, a promotion past that. Yeah. So I finally had committed to doing it. And so it's funny, I've been thinking so much about my philosophy of lighting and the way I approach it. But one of the things is that there's that old saw the best line design is lighting. The can't be seen, which is just a load of crap anywhere like Eddie in any scenario, like just say like you and I can't see the light where we are right now. Right. We see it. We know it's there. What they really mean is if I change, if I break the rules of the reality that I set up for you and notice that that's bad lighting design. Right, right. It's like, it's, I was compared to like, weirdly as a lighting professor, I had Meisner in this paper that I was writing yesterday. This document is writing. Cause it's like, it's that idea of living truthfully in imaginary circumstances. It's the same thing for us. We're creating those circumstances and we're trying to make it so that the actors can live in truth and everything has it. And if the rules are light comes out of the floor. Right. And it changes when I take a step, as long as I, as long as we create those rules for the audience. Right. And, and train them, they know what it is and then they follow it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 6s): We'll go with you. It's consistency. It's authenticity. It's telling the truth in the moment and yeah. Staying true to what the vision is, whatever that vision is. But yeah, it also reminds me of like the good lighting is shouldn't be noticed or whatever is like, women should be seen and not heard. It's totally like fuck off. Speaker 2 (41m 28s): So I was talking about something about myself too, and I almost was talking about leadership and I almost said, you know, because I was called bossy as a child, and now we acknowledge that. That just meant I was a leader. Speaker 1 (41m 37s): Yeah. Right. It just meant that. And you know, it's interesting because my recollection of you in college was that you knew what the hell you were doing now. Granted, I mean, everyone has different, you know, I'm sure you didn't always know what you're doing. Cause you're a human being. But like my recollection of you is that you were like, I think maybe because also you were a grad student, right. So, but you definitely had vision. You were someone that I was like, oh, they know what they're doing and, and why they're doing it. So there was this thing about you that I really felt from the little, I knew that like you had motivation or like a, a direction and also a curiosity, but, and a, I just, I just think you were like very early on like a master of your craft, which meant that also masters in my view, like really study and take the shit seriously and have a lot of pride in their work. That was it. Like not a lot of people had a pro. I mean, I can speak for myself. Like it wasn't like, I, I felt like you could stand behind your work. I've always felt that like, when I read stuff about, about you or like when I follow your career, it's like you stand by your work. That's fucking phenomenal, you know? Speaker 2 (42m 55s): Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of that was also the training that we were getting in the, in the design program because we had, we had such good professors, particularly John, we, we, we had Franco Lovecchio was there for two years. Right. Who was the most wonderful, crazy human in the entire world. He would like, literally, like you'd be drawing in the studio and you'd be like drawing on something. And we all learned that you had to keep tracing paper over a culture, which is something called trace really. But we would, we would have trace taped to our drawing boards so that the minute he sat down, you could throw a trace over it. Or he would just start drawing all over you drawing. And, but he would like nudge you off your chair while he was like, fixing your time for you. And you'd tell him, be standing there watching him doing your work. And you were like, maybe, maybe not, maybe, maybe I'm in school. Maybe I want to learn how to do that. He was so funny though. So great. But then John Colbert has, is like really like taught us like the, that you have to be able to justify the work that you have to understand the rules of the piece that you and the rigor that goes behind that. And Nancy Beulah, who's the same. Who was just this amazing. She's the, she used to let, she used to let you do your project again, to get your grade up a little bit. And I would get like a B plus on something for her and I would do it again. And it wasn't even that I really needed. Like, I wasn't great. I wanted her to think I was working. Like I needed her to have that belief in Speaker 1 (44m 15s): G she, there was something. So she costumed me and said she just, she was so affirming. And also like you, there was something about she, she made me believe that she knew that I was going to be okay and that I was going to be a professional and that I could do it. Like there was, it was amazing. It was so much, there was like a strong confidence that she instilled in me as a costume person, which I, I just felt, again, she stood behind her work too. Like she was a bad-ass like, there was no like, ah, apologizing, there was no apologizing. And I feel like we just spent so much of our lives or at least I have apologizing that when I see someone like a career like yours, I'm like, oh, maybe this comes from not apologized. Like maybe not apologizing for, for us as women as in our work, you know, like this is badass work I'm doing and I'm going to continue to do it. I dunno. It's just a fierceness. Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Well, for me too, I feel like the thing that I'm proudest of in my, in my age and in my success is that I no longer feel like the pressure of having to be complete on the first day of tech. Like, I'm like, I'm going to put an incomplete, that thing up there, and I'm going to start to see how light is moving on these people and what that does. And I know it might not look good, but I'm not going to worry about that. It's going to be okay. You know, I'm going to be able to, I know I will make it look great. I know I can. I know that what I put up there for the first draft is going to be the right first draft, because I know what I'm doing and I know that it doesn't have to be complete. Right. And I'm fine with that. And like, David is really great for that because he has no expectations of that either. Speaker 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's like really the difference between being product oriented and process oriented, right? Yeah. As an artist. And like, for me as a writer, like writing for TV, my first draft, if it's not, it's, it's terrible. And it's exactly where it's supposed to be. But if I have expectations or get in my own way and feel self-conscious about it, the whole thing is it doesn't work. So it's like, this is a shitty first draft. And by shitty, I mean, wonderful. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (46m 32s): So wonderful first draft, right? It's never supposed to be the final thing. Totally. We were also taught at school that because we don't stick around for the product, right. We're not part of the product. We, I mean, we are, we're making a product, right. Because we're not ever, once the product goes, our AR is there, we're gone from it that we need to be really process-oriented. And that our process is what's going to get us hired aspect of working with us. Speaker 1 (46m 59s): I love that. And I feel like if we could, if we, I wish I would have learned that more and I'm not, I don't blame anyone for it. I just think it's the way the life is. But like, I'm, that's what I think I've spent my adult career as an artist becoming more process oriented and less product oriented and less and less judgy, right. About my and other people's process of, of like, it doesn't look the same. And so I think when you find a collaborator, which it sounds like David, what is for you that is also, and in the same sort of thought process in terms of how art is created, that's what works, because you're both sound like you're like no expectations for the first thing to be the thing. Like it changes it pivots, it moves, it's moving, it's breathing and moving. And I think that that's probably why your work together is so powerful and profound is that you both have this view life view right. Of art that works together really well. Right. So, and that sounds fine when I find those people. Those are the people I want to stay with and work with. Yeah. Speaker 2 (48m 7s): Yeah. And I think too, like one of the things getting back to sound inside and David, is that like, I, the thing that people often comment on is my use of darkness on stage that I actually commit fully to it, that I don't have a problem having actress speak from the dark. And I did the first time I ever had something that was really dark. I was like, oh God, like, you know, you're taught that, that can't be funny. Right. People actually laugh at things that here in the dark, it turns out. And so, but so being able to like be tiny and focused and just have a little bit of light, you know, and sound inside became that piece, which was like, we created the premise of the play is that this professor is telling the, talking to the audience and we don't really know what that's about. Like, I don't know. And I don't know the answer to that because I almost felt like knowing, like we don't want the audience to fully know. And I felt like if I know too much, then I, it may manifest. And so I never, even though Adam rap became, I tell him that he's the brother. I didn't get no offense to the brother. I did get, but I love Adam and I can ask him anything and talk to him about anything. But I have never asked him the truth of the play, which is, is it happening? Is it my meal? There's a character that we question is the character even real? Is she writing a book as she talks to the audience, this character, a Bella college professor, or is she, or there's a reference to a book at the end of the play that you like? Did she steal that book? And a lot of that was taken, there were a lot more concrete parts of the story when we did it Williamstown and they were taken out for the Broadway production to let the audience sort of float in their own uncertainty more. And so the idea is that Bella, this character who, who is this professor is actually the only fully fleshed out part of the play at the beginning. And that we slowly revealed the world as she creates it as she sort of illustrating it. And so that actually gave me the ability to have this production that was like using little amounts of light, a lot of darkness. Like I like, but also was in a way flashy, because we'd have like a big window on the side, on the wall of the sets. And then all of a sudden it would shift like instantly into a different time of day. And the shape of the window would change in the color of the window would change, but it was all very graphic. And then eventually within these like sequence of scenes in this office with this window, eventually the final one was this massive projection of a very real window. So, and so I got to work and I worked really closely with the production designer, who was the handsomest person in design. His name is Aaron Ryan. If you ever meet him, you're going to be like, I didn't know that designers looked like that. I thought only actors did. Wow. And he's the best dude in the land. I love him so much. Speaker 1 (50m 33s): So, so I guess yeah. Being mindful of your time, I just want to ask you if you, because we do have a lot of younger folks that listen to the show and that are interested in careers as designers, not just after, you know, now there's like such a, we're trying also to shine a light on designers. Cause it's awesome. Right. We don't, I mean, acting is not the only name of the game here. So what would you say if someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm interested in the theater. What does, what w what kind of person do I, it's kind of a hard question, but what kind of person do I need to be, to be a designer? I know if I'm a designer, Heather, Speaker 2 (51m 26s): I actually am really conscious of like the personality quirks of designers, because I watch it so much in my students. Right. And it's interesting because I am, I can't make a, I can not build a model. I cannot build a model. I, it was hated in school and it, but it's this really sort of detailed private work. And I'm a much, I'm super extroverted, which that doesn't mean all lighting designer extroverted, but like, I have to be able to work out here. Like I don't work here. I have to be able to work openly. I also have to work in public. Everybody is there when actors and designers have that rare thing in which actors and lighting designers, I should say, we, all of our work is done in front of other people. You cannot, like, you might have a smaller room and only a couple people at first, but like, it's still the same and we don't get to make it privately. And then somebody builds it and we go, oh, paint it that way. Or even like, listen to in our headphones. No, you have to be okay with that. You have to be really good with like a super high level of pressure. And you have to let it roll off of you. I worked, I love Sean Graney. This will not surprise anybody who knew Shawn grainy or losing his Shaun could be very difficult in a tech. I'm not the easiest dude, always in the world, but I love him to death. And there was an actor that we used to work with who just would Marvel. We worked with this person so many times and was a big part of the company. And with Marvel, it, me, because Sean would get tense and it'd be like really stressful and like pushing, pushing to get it done faster. And I would just let it all roll off. And it's because I have to be able to do that and know that this is my time. Right. Reclaiming my time. I was like, oh yeah, I do that all the time because I know that this is when I can do the thing. I also have to know when I can say, Hey, you know what? I can do this later. I can do this without people, or it's taking too long and it's slowing us down and it's, it's killing our process. It's not letting us all move forward as a group. And I'll deal with this thing later. Right. But I also know that I have to do it now. And that's the way this process works until somebody changes it, I'm going to do it in the room. And so I will take my time. I have to be able to work as quickly as I can in that. And I have to know that I have to deal with the pressures from other people. Speaker 1 (53m 27s): So it's got a little bit of, it's interesting. It's a it's human relationships that makes with time management mixed with reclaiming your time mixed with knowing when to, yeah. When you can let go and say, okay, I'm going to do, but like, I, I don't think people, at least I'll speak for myself. Younger people think that you need, well, the ones I encounter my students too, like, you need people skills as a designer. Oh, you need people skills. Like, just because you're not an actor doesn't mean you don't, you know, you got to work with people. And I think your, from your interview, it's really clear that like, there's all different kinds of people you're going to work with, and you're not going to get along with all of them, but you can also figure out a way, right. To still have the process, be one of where you get your work done, get rehired. If that's what you want and still be a kind human and work, you know, in the industry. And I think that's really interesting that you, the rolling off the back. Yeah. Because people in tech and in tech and intense situations get bonkers bomb, bonkers, bonkers Speaker 2 (54m 30s): Years ago, I was assisting on a production of the Scottish play in New York that George Wolf was directing that Angela Bassett and Alec Baldwin were starring in and the pressure and the pressure on it was super high. And then everybody who was a secondary person was like, we have Schreiber and Michael Hall and Zach brown. Speaker 1 (54m 48s): I mean, it was our secondary Speaker 2 (54m 50s): People. Cause they were babies that like Zach rabbit just finished school. Like let's start on it. And we, and the pressure was super high. And, and we were on the third floor of the building and the electric shop was in the basement. And my designer was like yelling at me and I would pass it on. I would pass that energy on. And the assistant lighting supervisor took me out for pizza and was like, you can't do that. And he was like, you have to be the wall. And if you can't be the wall, this might not be your job. He's like, you can still be a designer, but assisting might not be the way you got there. And this guy must've been, I mean, he was maybe my age. He was probably younger than me. His name was Todd greatest thing that ever happened to me. Yep. It changed me forever. I was like, you're right. That is my job. And actually, I'm very good at that. I am a cheerleader and I'm a person who cares about people and I have no problem. I mean, there will be times that I'm not trying to say, I'm never put pressure on the people around me. I get impatient too. I'm not a patient person, but, but I can, I can try to protect the people around me. And I, and I love my team that people who make the lighting thing happen, you know, I kept, I, we won the, I did this production bug with David right before the pandemic. And then we just did it again unless we could set them off. And we won the Jeff award for it. As I like to say, we won the Jeff award. Like my team won that award. I didn't do it by myself, but I actually took it into the first day of tech and we put it on the tech table for the second round. And I was like, everybody had my crew put a light on it and they would run the light up. And it was like, everybody may give me notes through the Jeff. The Jeff looks up notes for me. That's hilarious. I will speak to none of you. I will speak to Carrie Coon, Carrie Coon also want to Jeff that she may speak directly to me because what else do you do with an award? There's so weird there, Speaker 1 (56m 30s): Right there, weirdness. And they're weird and they're nice and they're in your effort. And it's the only way we have really, as human acknowledged this stuff, but in a, in a sort of ceremony kind of a way, but like, all right, well, I just thank you for talking Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Absolutely Speaker 1 (56m 47s): Pleasing. And I, I, you know, I just, I'm always left when I talk to someone like you I'm like left with this wish for young women to know that there are so many jobs and careers in the theater that you don't just have to be an actor or an actress or whatever you want to call yourself. There are so many things. And, and by, and for me also, it's like, oh my gosh, please find someone that's doing the thing you might want to do and ask them questions and see if you can get information, you know, like an informational interview, which is essentially what we do on this podcast is do an informational interview with people we went to school with and other people, but like get the information. So thank you for putting the information about your career and your journey out there for us. And we'll, we'll keep in touch and you'll get a copy to review before we air it. And, but just, thank you. Thank you so much. Speaker 2 (57m 45s): Totally. I'll send you guys some pictures I have to please. And, you know, they're printed. I actually had to go into a box and found Speaker 1 (57m 51s): Them. It's a whole thing. Speaker 2 (57m 53s): Yeah. Much like everybody else. I went through all of those during the pandemic. So I was trying to figure if I had one with me and Keith, cause that would be awesome. Speaker 1 (57m 60s): That would be fine. Speaker 2 (58m 3s): It's funny. I love telling people in the, in the lighting community that like I drove her, we've been friends for so long. I drove him home from college for Christmas, his first year of college, you know, and then, and now he's like, like he did his first runway show at studio 54. And then I did my first Broadway show in studio 54. And like, yeah, I really love getting to share all of that with him. And he's a true and great artist. And I just, S

Intro: Gina ordered her theatre school transcriptsLet Me Run This By You: knowing when to let go, moments of clarityInterview: We talk to Ammar Daraiseh about being an MFA, homesickness, Joe Slowik and Bella Itkin, Joe Mantegna, type casting, being a middle eastern actor, Sweet Smell of Success, film noir. www.ammardaraiseh.com - there is where you can watch Ammar's acting reel and my short films he produced www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina . We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I1 (45s):Half expected you to have red hair this morning.2 (49s):Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.1 (59s):It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,2 (1m 13s):The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.2 (2m 1s):But guess what my lowest grade was in1 (2m 8s):Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,2 (2m 13s):My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think1 (2m 40s):That's a great observation by him.2 (2m 44s):See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.1 (3m 7s):It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript2 (3m 21s):And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,1 (3m 33s):Anybody else want to have a transcript? You2 (3m 36s):Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your1 (3m 42s):I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.1 (4m 24s):So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.2 (4m 35s):I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.1 (4m 39s):Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.2 (4m 46s):Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.2 (5m 27s):And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.1 (6m 7s):Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.2 (6m 11s):Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to1 (6m 43s):Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?2 (6m 48s):No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,1 (6m 58s):If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.1 (7m 38s):But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So2 (8m 13s):You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.1 (8m 33s):And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those2 (8m 55s):Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.2 (9m 40s):We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.2 (10m 25s):I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.2 (11m 10s):I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.2 (11m 51s):But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.2 (12m 36s):But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.2 (13m 17s):Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.2 (13m 58s):And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.2 (14m 38s):Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great. 1 (15m 0s):Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?1 (15m 43s):Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.1 (16m 25s):I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.1 (17m 9s):I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,2 (17m 27s):100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.1 (17m 56s):I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.1 (18m 38s):Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.1 (19m 19s):And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?2 (19m 54s):We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but1 (20m 21s):Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.2 (20m 27s):Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.2 (21m 32s):Oh, oh,1 (21m 33s):It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then2 (21m 46s):You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.1 (22m 25s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.1 (23m 11s):And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.1 (23m 53s):And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.2 (24m 10s):Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.2 (24m 51s):Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.1 (25m 1s):Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.1 (25m 41s):Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,2 (25m 55s):W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,1 (26m 26s):Why did I do that? Yeah.2 (26m 28s):Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.1 (26m 42s):Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.2 (27m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the1 (27m 6s):Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.2 (27m 14s):Thank you. So how are you doing1 (27m 16s):Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what2 (27m 43s):If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,1 (27m 50s):Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.1 (28m 36s):Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?1 (29m 17s):I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.1 (29m 59s):I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.2 (30m 5s):Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,1 (30m 17s):Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.1 (31m 7s):And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,2 (31m 32s):Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.2 (32m 13s):Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.1 (32m 17s):Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.2 (33m 7s):Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.2 (33m 50s):And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.2 (34m 35s):I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality1 (34m 38s):And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?1 (35m 20s):Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?2 (35m 54s):It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self1 (36m 21s):And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.2 (36m 35s):No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,1 (36m 41s):How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,2 (36m 48s):So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like1 (36m 55s):Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.2 (37m 1s):That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.1 (37m 8s):It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.2 (37m 19s):Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,1 (37m 54s):Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there2 (38m 3s):To be curious. Fun to be1 (38m 4s):Curious about. Yeah.2 (38m 17s):Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater3 (38m 54s):School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You2 (38m 57s):Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.3 (39m 9s):Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was2 (39m 30s):The feeling that you had.3 (39m 32s):It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,2 (40m 4s):I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something3 (40m 15s):People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.1 (40m 52s):Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,3 (41m 31s):I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.3 (42m 16s):Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,2 (42m 20s):Do you have artists in your family?3 (42m 23s):No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.2 (42m 39s):It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the3 (43m 21s):That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.1 (43m 45s):Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,3 (44m 13s):Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.3 (44m 56s):I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,2 (45m 20s):You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.3 (45m 24s):I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.3 (46m 4s):And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?3 (46m 46s):And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.2 (47m 20s):Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,3 (47m 52s):But2 (47m 52s):You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,3 (48m 0s):I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.3 (48m 47s):They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way1 (49m 10s):And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?3 (49m 29s):I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.3 (50m 9s):It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.3 (50m 55s):I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but4 (51m 8s):We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on3 (51m 11s):Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.3 (51m 52s):And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.1 (52m 2s):Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?3 (52m 10s):Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,4 (52m 43s):Isabel. I haven't3 (52m 44s):Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he1 (52m 50s):Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So3 (52m 52s):He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.3 (53m 39s):And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.3 (54m 19s):Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.2 (54m 23s):Oh, say what3 (54m 27s):You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And2 (54m 38s):Coming back to me, wait a minute,3 (54m 40s):You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.2 (55m 7s):I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.3 (55m 28s):What2 (55m 29s):What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.2 (56m 9s):So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from3 (56m 29s):Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.1 (56m 59s):No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.3 (57m 23s):Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.3 (58m 3s):Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.2 (58m 29s):That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.3 (58m 58s):Oh, wow. Yeah.2 (59m 1s):That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.1 (59m 38s):We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.1 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah.3 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.2 (1h 0m 31s):Right. Very3 (1h 0m 32s):Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.2 (1h 0m 35s):Right?3 (1h 0m 36s):The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but1 (1h 1m 10s):It's like 48 or some craziness3 (1h 1m 13s):For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella and Joe slower. And I think because they come from, you know, such interesting backgrounds, you know, Joe slug being Polish, you know, Bella, it can be in a Russian Jewish woman. Oh, I got a lot of stories while her, oh my God.1 (1h 1m 43s):She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?3 (1h 1m 47s):Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.3 (1h 2m 28s):I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.3 (1h 3m 9s):You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.2 (1h 3m 38s):Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,3 (1h 4m 13s):She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.2 (1h 4m 34s):We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?3 (1h 4m 45s):No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.3 (1h 5m 29s):I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,1 (1h 5m 41s):Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?3 (1h 5m 49s):Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.3 (1h 6m 31s):And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.2 (1h 6m 38s):But it took the focus3 (1h 6m 40s):Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.2 (1h 7m 24s):Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,3 (1h 7m 30s):She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.1 (1h 7m 55s):Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or3 (1h 8m 3s):Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.1 (1h 8m 23s):Wait a minute. So wait a minute.3 (1h 8m 25s):There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but2 (1h 8m 32s):There was quite a few.1 (1h 8m 35s):Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.3 (1h 8m 50s):I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.3 (1h 9m 31s):Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.2 (1h 9m 42s):Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,1 (1h 10m 2s):We don't have any money.2 (1h 10m 3s):We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.3 (1h 10m 27s):I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.3 (1h 11m 8s):And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.3 (1h 11m 48s):And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,2 (1h 12m 11s):Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.3 (1h 12m 21s):I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I

This Sabbath, we have a guest speaker/ John Bridges is a former pastor who now works as a full time planned giving director for several prominent ministries in the North American Division. He brings a message to us this week from the book of Ruth entitled "Whither Thou Goest".

Intro: Writing personallyLet Me Run This By You: What would you say to your inner child?Interview: We talk to Ed Ryan about surviving two theatre schools, surviving 9/11, and interrupted grief.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And I'm scared. Like, I think partially 1 00:00:34This is this, the main character is based on me. Like all our character. I think every writer writes about themselves. I don't care what you say, aspects of themselves. So I'm like, man, would I do this stuff? Would I, how far would I go to people please? Like that? That is what I'm wrestling with. That is what is, is, how far do we go? And how far would I go to people please? Now I don't think I'd go that far, but people do go far. 2 00:00:59People go far and feel like they're in a few state and feel like it wasn't them. That was making the choice. And, and I believe that I believe that that can happen. I also just think it's interesting in the lens of like, feeling, having felt for a long period of your life, that you weren't allowed to have certain emotions. It makes sense to me that you would be surprising yourself with where you can go in your imagination, but that would also lead to, you know, surprisingly like our, we had a conversation one time on here where I said, I don't feel like I've ever seen you angry. So, and you, you said you do get angry, but I just wonder if maybe there's just a lot of unexpressed anger and this is a great way to get it out. 1 00:01:42Totally. And I, and I think you're right. I think you're right on. And so, and I also think, and I wonder how, you know, how you feel about the idea that writing, right? Somebody, I wonder if people write and I don't know how you write, but if people read, I mean, I know a little how you write, but if peop, if people can ever write fully devoid from their own person, you know, like, like where they don't put themselves in their characters or their, if they're writing, I guess maybe if you're writing non-fiction I don't know. But when you write, do you agree that like each part of you and every, oh yeah, 100%. 2 00:02:24And I, I, in reading the Stephen King book about writing, you know, he, he realized like years after the fact about the way that he was writing himself in his stories, like, I guess famously and in misery, he is when he was at the height of drug addiction. And he, at the time he did not feel that he was writing the story about himself, but that's what it ended up being. Yeah. I mean, in part, just because like, how else would you do it? I mean, you only have your own as close as you can be to anybody else. What you really stuck with 24 7 is the ruminations in your own mind, the reactions to things, your worldview, your worldview is, is so people can recognize a lot of things about their worldview, but then there's all kinds of things about their own perspective that they would never think unless they had occasion to see it, contrast it with something else and say, oh, wow, I think about that really differently. 2 00:03:21So anyway, I think it's cool. I think it's great that you're going there and I'm excited to see where it goes. 1 00:03:32Let me run this by you. I started seeing, so I had a therapist that was this Orthodox Jewish man that I stopped seeing. It was just it. I always what I, you know, and it's so blatant at the time after, but during, during, I never see, like, I'm looking for like a father figure. And, and he started to say things that were, and it's all I'm on the phone, you know, but like he has six kids and he wanted to, he started saying things like, do you think that this is because you never had kids kind of like why my emotions? 2 00:04:13And I said, you know, 1 00:04:15I don't know it could be, but I, and you know, it was it's interesting. So I just had to say, you know what, I'm so-and-so, I think that I'm going to take a pause on this. I just don't feel that were, I was proud of myself. I said, I just don't feel like it's a good match right now for me, a good fit. I couldn't just say it's so funny. I have to qualify it. Like, I couldn't just say this isn't a good fit. I was like, not a fit right now for trying to soften that. Just ridiculous stuff, but that's how I did it. And yeah. And so I, I was like, okay, well, do I want to get another therapist? Or do I want to, so I do see like a coach, like, what do I want to do? 1 00:04:55So I started seeing, I had a first session with a coach outside in a park. Who's a, she coaches, she does a lot of career coaching, but I just, like, I've known her for a while. And I liked her and we got to some interesting stuff like, you know, and you've said some stuff about like inner child stuff. Like I never really felt like I could connect with the idea of making peace or taking care of my inner child. And I couldn't understand why. And I think I got to the point where the reason I I'm afraid to things that my inner child will hurt me or that I will hurt it. 2 00:05:35Her. Yeah. 1 00:05:37So, so I thought I'd tell you about that. 2 00:05:41Hurt you. Any idea what you mean by that? Like 1 00:05:44Sabotage, like my inner child is so angry at the way that my parents, and then I have been treating her that she will fuck things up. Hm. 2 00:05:54Yeah. By misbehaving. Yes. 1 00:05:57Misbehaving sabotaging. So there's not a trust there. There's not a trust. And I wouldn't have ever, whenever I, in the various forms of therapy and schooling that I've done in this area, I always felt really, it's not even that I bristled with when we did inner child work. It's like, I thought, well, I don't even know this is weird. I don't even know what this is. 2 00:06:23Yeah. I totally, I can totally relate. And I think I have had the same exact opinion, this very cynical sort of point of view. It all seems so I would just want to roll my eyes talking about inner child, but I think it's like that thing that I was telling you about when I did that thing on clubhouse and everybody was playing and I was just afraid of it. I think it's just that I think you learn to hide the parts of yourself that get you in trouble in the world for whatever reason. And then if there are parts of yourself that you first identify when you were very young, they're locked away. Good. They're locked away. Real good. And there's a real, I mean, just intense fear about going there. 2 00:07:07And I guess like the best signal that I have about that is that every time I start to think about it or talking about it, I start to cry, which, okay, well, there's obviously a lot there. I, I don't believe, see my thing about it is like for a long time I did therapy. I did. I've I'll total in total. I've probably done therapy. I'm going to say for like 10 years between different therapists. I, it's not that I think I'm done. It's not, you know, it's not that I don't want to be in therapy. I, there are reasons that I'm not in it right now, but I just very quickly be talking about my childhood became like, okay, but I talked about it and now I'm just complaining. 2 00:07:56Or, you know, now this is just, when are you going to get over? And that's the voice of like everybody in my family, like get over it. Everybody's everybody hurts. Like not even, not, not even everybody hurts, just like, get over it. You're your grownup. There's no time for that anymore. And I, that is the voice that I cannot quiet in my own head. So, whereas at one point in my life, I thought I had done all that. Cause I did 10 years of therapy. Now I realized I just never even approached it. I stuck with things that were more happening in my life now. Or like I would spend a lot of time like crying about my dad or whatever, but it wasn't like it's, you know, that was about him. 2 00:08:37It was about me talking about him. It wasn't really about me talking about me because I think when I started talking about myself, that's when all the walls and defenses went up and I was like, you know, and I, and I couldn't do it. And Aaron has said to me, a number of times, like you've never really dealt with this stuff and I, and I've just been so incredulous, like, of course I have, I've done, I've dealt with it a ton, but I really haven't. I haven't, I've done like layers of it, but I haven't, I haven't done all the layers. 1 00:09:06Yeah. And I, I could totally hear that and I can totally relate to not feeling, to feeling like I haven't really touched on it. And the reason I know that I haven't gotten to the core of sort of any inner child work is that yesterday when I was, when she had me doing an exercise outside in the park, like just trying to approach my inner child, the only way I could make contact with her was across a field with loud noise in the background with me yelling and her yelling back. So like not screaming at each other, but like there was, had to be a barrier. Like I couldn't the intimacy of approaching her straight on was too much. 1 00:09:46So I was like, Hey, I'm over here. And she said, hi, I'm over there. And she was like, really suspicious of me and stuff. But I knew like, oh, I'm really having, I have a lot of trepidation about approaching this part of myself. And so I have to have a separation, like a barrier. It has to be, it has to be moderated. It can't be like, I can't just walk up to her. There's no way in hell. There's no way. 2 00:10:13What's it. Like when you look at pictures of yourself, when you were really young, what did you think? 1 00:10:17I feel like I don't even know who that person is. Yeah. 2 00:10:21I have the same exact, whereas I know this just could be the difference between thinking about yourself and thinking about another person. When I look at even very, very young, young baby pictures of my kids, I think, oh yeah, their personality was there. You know, from the beginning, this is who they still are. And sometimes I'll share, I'll show them something and they'll say, you know, it seems like they kind of recognize. Yeah, that's me. Whereas I look at that person and I think, I mean, I've seen this picture before, but I, I have what, who is that per yeah, I've just have no idea. I think I, what I basically did, starting in theater school is just form a whole new set to start over. 2 00:11:05I just formed a whole new identity. I was just like, not to the point that some people get like my sister where they tell everybody that our parents are dead. But to the point of just, yeah, I'm this person now. And you know, and I'm, and I'm done with that other person, whoever she was, I hated her no matter what. And of course the realization realization I have recently is no, but I still hate myself. So I really haven't a changed divorce. And I, and there's a, you can't walk away from who you are, you have, you have to. 1 00:11:37Right. And, and, and I, I, my coach, Deanna, was like I said, I don't know who that person is. And she said, she's you, you just haven't integrated her yet. Like there it's you. And I was like, whole, I saw it as a separate sort of. So it's interesting. And she said, trauma, you know, we talked about neuroplasticity of the brain and trauma and, and how it's rewiring. Like, so, and she's like, I don't really believe in, well, I don't know if she said this, but I got, kind of got the feeling. She was like, she didn't really believe in mantras and all that, but she said, what happens? What do you start telling yourself when you are scared? 1 00:12:19Or when you have an audition, that's scary. I say, I'm going to screw this up. That's my mantra. I'm going to somehow screw this up. I'm going to, she's like, all right, we have to cut that off immediately. She's like, I don't care what you say, but you can't say that to yourself anymore. So I was like, okay, what can I believe? Like, what can I get stand behind? Because I'm not going to say, oh, I'm the greatest actor and everything. No, no, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that at all. But what I do believe it, I do have evidence to show in my heart and in my bones that things have that everything is happening at the time it's supposed to be happening. I do believe that I do. I can stand behind that. I can't say it's good. I can't say it's awesome, but I can say, so she said, all right, we're just going to go with that. So now, like, you know, I think, oh, what if I get a call back for this role I really want, and I know I'm going to fuck it up. 1 00:13:04And I said, Nope, it's going to happen. If, if I do fuck it up, it's going to be, because it was the time to fuck it up. Like I have to believe in the timing of things, because I can't really believe in the goodness of things, is that, you know, 2 00:13:17Right. And sort of similar to that is how I'm always just thinking in my mind that I'm just starting over at that. I'm always just putting the other the past behind me. It's, that's not you that you can't really do that. And, and it's all, it's every failure in every experience you go through every part and every iteration of yourself is a part of whatever it is now. It's not. So what's what this is making me think about is when I was in private practice, I became sort of known for treating really severe trauma cases. And so almost all of them had did. 2 00:13:58And the technique for integration when a person has multiple selves and just for people who are listening, it's not like civil, civil, and bark, like a dog, whatever. It's really a lot more subtle than that. Now in severe cases, people have these few states where they go and they're just doing something else. I mean, I had, I had clients who would get themselves. They would go into a few state and then do terrible things that really dangerous, dangerous, terrible thing. But the technique is you have them all sit around a conference table. 2 00:14:38You have, what's amazing to me is if, if you're talking to a person who suffers with us and they've never heard this technique before, they never go conference table, they go, okay. Yeah. They're, I mean, they're just immediately, oh, that's a good idea. They can all come together because of they're in their experience. They feel or see. And they all have very often, they all have different names and different ages and they have different things and they fight with each other about what they're doing. So I say, let's just do the conference table thing. Let's have everybody meet together and we can work on the agenda. But like the underwriting overriding thing has to be we, whatever we do, we want to do it United. 2 00:15:20And what it gets tricky is when you're, you're not doing it United and everybody's, and that's the sabotage thing. That's what you get a lot of it. The sabotage thing is like this one is, and it's all because it was all a coping strategy for not being able to, you know, the parts of yourself that were rejected by whomever get shunned. They don't go away. They just get shunted off into another part of you. And it's funny because I really see a lot of my dysfunction feels splintered like that. Like I can say, I can click into a mode. That's happy, happy, and positive. And, but then if I'm not feeling happy and positive, then it's like, I'm not that person anymore. 2 00:16:03I'm just this other sad, depressed person. Or sometimes I'm, you know, we all have it to some degree and I feel it a little too. It doesn't feel like different parts of me that have different names, but it still feels like it needs a lot more integrating. 1 00:16:18Yes, I totally agree with that. And the other thing I worry about, and I think, and I, I don't know if you've ever worried. I worry that might the, that part of myself, the small, vulnerable, whatever, I would say five or six year old part of myself is going to disclose some, even more deep trauma happened. 2 00:16:38Okay. There you go. That's probably exactly right. 1 00:16:41And I don't want to, and I am like, I don't know if I can handle that. Like I, so she is the keeper of secrets of when I was young and who knows what the hell really went on. Like I could have been worse than I thought is the, is the, is the, is the overarching fear 2 00:16:59I can see why you would be afraid then. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if part of your way it is going to be instead of, or like in addition to fearing that is like, yeah, that's scary, but she needs help. She needs, yeah. 1 00:17:14Yeah. That's what, that's what Deanna said too. It was like, yeah. She needs to be seen and heard. Yeah. And that's your way to freedom. And I was like, what? Because whenever someone says the way to freedom, like that interests me because freedom from such self doubt, freedom from such self-loathing or fear, you know, self like freedom from that seems amazing. So if someone tells me, you want to get free from this, you know, as long as they're not telling me some wackadoo stuff, but you, you want freedom from this thing, then it's going to take a certain amount of work. I'm like that, that I'm curious if I will do that word, which is just to say 2 00:17:58To our listeners, that the experience of doing this podcast has people are always reporting to us. Oh, I've reconnected with people. I'm, I'm healing things and remembering things, but that's true for us too. And I have reconnected with people that I haven't spoken to in a number of years. And it's so gratifying. I mean, that, that's actually another piece of this disintegration thing is like the person I was when I was in theater school and the friends I had. And I just basically with the exception of you just moved on from that and never looked back and you know, these are people that I love that I loved then, and that, you know, as I'm reconnecting with them, I'm like, oh yeah, you're amazing. 2 00:18:48And I'm just so grateful that we're having the opportunity to do this. I, this is what college reunions are meant to do, but they don't because it's kinda like one, you know, it's just, it's all because you just get through one layer of like, well, what do you look like? And what are you doing? As, you know, as an and, and I guess social media has changed that for people, like they get a better sense, but, but that's even, that is not the same as actually talking to somebody who you haven't talked to. And then now I'm like texting with people and it's fun. It's and then the other thing, which I've mentioned to you at least once before, but I'm still thinking about a lot is the people who I don't remember, but who remember me to me, that means I have just been so self absorbed that w that to, to a great degree. 2 00:19:43When I think back about that time, I, I almost can only think about myself and how I felt about things and whether I was getting treated well, or, you know, instead of like the fact, I mean, I guess that's human, but I just feel like if there's somebody who remembers me, then there's a re then the reason that I don't remember them is not anything other than I was just paying only attention to myself. And I, and I have compassion for myself about it because I, you know, it was just doing the best I could, but I'm interested in going back and healing those riffs too, because I, I think that something happens that has happened to me over time is like, I was never the most popular or the least popular. 2 00:20:37I was always in the middle, which meant that I ended up looking down on the people who were less popular than me and, and looking up to and resenting the people. So it was, I was just seeing everything in terms of like status status. Yeah. That's what it is. I have been entirely status obsessed in a way that is a complete surprise to me. I had no idea that I was status obsessed and it makes sense because that's how my parents are. That's how everybody, I mean, that's how a lot of people are. Why would I be unique? Why would I be exempt from 1 00:21:10Them? Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that we, that I get get, so I get so trapped in thinking I'm uniquely where I'm at, and that is garbage. I am a unique human because everyone is to a certain extent. And then we're all the freaking same. We're all worried about what we look like, what we sound like, who, what, what other people think of? What other people think of us and how we're coming off. And, you know, that's part of being human, but I think you're right. I think for me as well, when people remember things, I don't remember, people were like, yeah, we were friends and I'm thinking we were friends. And that is because I was too busy probably thinking about myself and what else I could do, or why it's, it's what they say in 12 step programs, really about self centered fear. 1 00:21:55It's like, I'm so self-centered, and, and 2 00:21:59She'll warm. I'm I'm shit, but I'm, but I'm 1 00:22:03Yeah, shit. Or I'm the special warm and a, not a worker among workers, you know, like it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. And we come by and see the thing that's really also interesting to me is that we come by it, honestly, that is the part that I have to remember. It's that the people come by the shit, honestly, including me, I'm not so special that I don't come by it, honestly, it's not right. You know? 2 00:22:26Yeah. I mean, right. Yeah. I think it is. It's completely amazing. I'm completely great. I, I'm an apropos of our conversation that we had a while ago about like constantly evaluating our progress. Like when I can get away from doing that, I'm just full of gratitude for, for, for what we're, what we've already done. Even if we never did it again after this, what we've already done has been so personally helpful. Yeah, 1 00:22:54Me too. And I do see it as a way also as, as we move forward as artists, as a way of building allyship with people that I once looked at as not nemesis, maybe, but like as adversaries or doing better than me or doing worse than me, or now it's, it just seems more they're equal. Like I feel more equal with people and I think that's a better way to go, because the other way is like, 2 00:23:20It's also just the truer way to go. Like, it's just a lie. We tell ourselves when we think we're so sped. It's like, okay. But I mean, among other things, it's simply a false, 1 00:23:31Which is why, like, things like the like organized, like army and stuff works because you all get put in basic training and no one is better than the, there were, you're all lower, lowest on totem pole. And I think that builds some kind of comradery. And yeah. So anyway, I just, I just, I don't know why I was thinking about that, but I liked that idea. 2 00:23:55I, I started to watch some of the showcase this year is DePaul theater school shows. I was just curious if you had seen any of them. I 1 00:24:07Have seen it. And you know, it's interesting. I, the, the way that they filmed it, for the most part, it's the same camera shots, right. Of each I'm like, okay, okay. I think that we could have been a little more original with that, but I think they were trying to be equal to everybody and not quote you. And, and also 2 00:24:30It's not a film school. I mean that, you know, I, I, for that reason, I give it a lot of credit because it's like, oh, wow. I wonder if somebody had been tasked doing that in our year. I'm, I'm not certain we would have gotten anywhere. It would've been 1 00:24:44In video camera shaking and like, yeah, yeah, 2 00:24:47Yeah. So it's cool. I'm happy for them that they have this. I mean, I'm happy for them that they have this access. It's probably has the same effect that it did when we did the in-person thing, which is like, not a lot, unless they're going to move to LA. But what I felt was interesting is looking at the acting and just remembering, like, talk about not being special. We all did bad acting in the same way, you know, which is to say not connected, not real, very, very self-monitoring of like, how is this coming across? You can see people thinking that, how is this coming across? Versus there was a few people who was like, oh no, they're in it. 2 00:25:29They're totally there. They're there. It's just ed. And I say, this was so much compassion because I think probably the entire time I was just looking, I was just observing myself. I'm sure I did a terrible job. Yeah. And 1 00:25:41I can see it too. And I, you, it sticks out when someone's really in it. And it is so hot. And we said this, and I, I think we've talked about this on the podcast. It's so hard to get there. It's hard to get, to stop the self-monitoring to be in the moment and just tell the story or be in the it's so hard. So what it happens and you see it, you're like, oh, that's gold, that's gold. And it's not to say that, you know, we all get there at different times and we have different moments of it, but yeah. 2 00:26:09Yeah. What's hard to account for, I mean, you know, to a certain degree, there is only so much teaching that somebody can do of actors, because what you really need also is just these life experiences that either do, or don't lead you in the direction of really understanding yourself. And if you're a person who is not interested in understanding yourself, you're probably pretty limited as an actor or, or like, or maybe even very successful, but just that one, you know? Yeah. Right, 1 00:26:39Right. You might, you might make a million dollars, but as we talked about it, that not equal being in the moment and being it truly like for me in an experience, just because you made a million dollars doing it does not. I, I is a recent, recent, recent discovery that worth and money are not necessarily the same. Oh my God. Oh my God. 2 00:27:04Me too, girl. Me too. I'm just like, yeah, because actually there are other, I've heard the phrase. It's not always about money, but I really have never lived it. I have always been like, no, no, no. It's always 0 00:27:26Today on the podcast, we're talking with Edward Ryan, Edward is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to have many adventures and different incarnations as an artist and is still on that adventure. And he's thoughtful and kind. So please enjoy our conversation with Edward Ryan. 3 00:27:47I was, I was a year below you guys. Okay. Okay. Okay. Edward, 2 00:27:52Ryan, congratulations. You survived theater school. I did twice. Twice. Yeah, because you just went back a few years ago to get your degree. So tell us about 4 00:28:03That. That was a very different, yeah. So you know what I did do some local theater, like a while ago I met a costumer and his name was Frank and he wound up teaching at a really small private school in Springfield, Massachusetts. And he's basically started a theater program there that's called American international college. And he said to me one day, like, how come you never finished your degree? He was like, give me your transcripts. And I, I, I got my transcripts. And he was like, you could be done in like a year and a half or two years and have a decree. 4 00:28:47Well, I didn't know I was going to be so, you know, affected by, was it, it's a school that serves a lot of sort of underserved communities. So there's a lot of first-generation Americans, a lot of first-generation college students. And in contrast to a place like DePaul, although we complained about the building on north Kenmore, the facility, there's nothing. I mean, they have nothing, these kids and, but their like passion and their drive is really what you know is so inspirational, you know? And they're like, we can make theater out of anything, you know, out of nothing. And it was kind of a strange situation because Frank and I were very good friends, you know? So all of a sudden he was like my professor and I mostly had to do academic classes to graduate there. 4 00:29:33You know, they took all my credits and I re I did a history of theater. I was like for like the third time, like all of, you know, this time I wasn't able to cheat. As I remember 2 00:29:46Cheating, I did cheat, oh 4 00:29:48My God. Anaconda make us, had every test that doc, whatever his name was, Jack O'Malley gave us. Oh, hilarious. And I've always been really studious, but like second year I was like, oh yeah. You know, give them up. 2 00:30:05That's funny because I don't actually remember the cheating thing, but when Dave was on, he, he referenced that, I guess it was widespread. I mean, you know, in a way, I'm sure they were like, oh, these kids they're so dumb. Just something easy. 4 00:30:20Get the same test every year, year after year after year. And luckily I lived, I lived with second years. So it was like, and you know, and she had them all, like, she was a stage manager, dramaturgy, Jenna, all a file. I just had to go in every week and pull it out. Yeah. 2 00:30:35I mean, are you the, one of the people who just got a brochure from DePaul and that's how you went 4 00:30:40With, yeah. With this gesture on the front, I never went to visit the school. I auditioned in New York and it was, you know, I had applied to NYU and I had an audition set up, but their auditions for summer, I didn't audition at the same time. And it was like really late. And I applied to Providence college. That was, if I wanted to like go the more academic route, dammit. And I remember going for my audition and I, I like heard really quickly that I got into DePaul and I just decided I never even went on my audition for NYU. 4 00:31:21I, I thought that the city would probably be a little too, you know, I was, I lived near the city. So it was like always my grandfather lived in the city and I thought that's going to be too much of a distraction, you know? And I really wanted to, you know, get an education. So I went to Chicago and I flew out and my parents drove all my stuff out. 2 00:31:42What, like, what did you make of it? Day one. What was, where was your head at with it? 4 00:31:47I was like, Chicago is so clean compared to New York. Yeah, it really is. I lived in Seton hall and I lived on the fourth floor in the corner room that was like ginormous with Cedric was Cedric steins was my roommate. And we had this other third roommate that we never liked. And then he got kicked out of the dorms, like halfway through the year. So we had this great big room and it was right above. I felt like the blues brothers, cause he looked at our window and they're like the El tracks by, but it was really close to taco burrito palace. Oh 2 00:32:24My God. I forgot all about TVP. Okay. Well they have many, you know, there's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I think that one is actually still there. 4 00:32:39That place like on a Friday or Saturday night was like, you couldn't get near it. And Rose's Tavern is like hole that the Mesopotamian woman who was like, let anybody drink. Okay. If you could walk, you choose giving 2 00:32:53Toddlers shots of you guys 4 00:32:56You'd be surprised. And there was some sort of characters in that joint. I mean, I remember like winding up at some apartment and being like, I shouldn't be here. What am I doing? 2 00:33:10So, but you left, you left after your second year. Okay. And it was rough. You said you had a rough, 4 00:33:16It was, I was, I was planning on living there. So I was living there for the summer. I was living with Cedric again and then Noel wrath. Yeah. And we were living like sort of west of everything, like up Armitage. It was like desolate. It was like this really weird apartment where I had the closet as my room. And I just remember like taking out the garbage, had to go out the back doors to this garage. And there was like this Harley biker who was always hanging out in there. I don't know if I was just like, this is where children get molested. I can't, you know, it was odd and Cedric left and he went to Africa, there was a trip to like Africa. 4 00:33:56And I remember Susan Lee was on that trip because he was like, he called us and he was like, oh, I met Susan Lee and wait, 2 00:34:07Susan Lee was just randomly in Africa with this girl. Don't you remember? That's when she came back and said to Erica, oh, I've got to teach you African dance. Okay. 4 00:34:18But, you know, I really, I really want, I was like, you know, I was kind of shocked about it and you know, I think it was a lot for me to go there. You know, I'm the youngest of five. And then my mother had remarried and I have four step kids. So my parents had like nine kids under the age of like 30. And you know, financially that no matter how much money you make, I think it's, it's a burden. And I was really committed to like the theater school. And I didn't have a warning that was sort of, you know, productive. I remember going to Rick Murphy's office and not having any morning, my first year of going in and sitting down him being like, you're fine. 4 00:34:59Get out of here. You know? And then my second year he was like, what the fuck is going on with you? You know? And he's like, what's up a tree Kessler. And I was like, I don't know if she hates me. And he was like, get your shit together or something like that, you know? But there was no like sort of actionable steps. And then when I left and asked back, I was like, wow. And you were talking about mushrooms. So for the first time I ate flushes and I wandered around Chicago and I found all these incredible places. I was like, oh my God, like a Paul said and all that. I was like input. And like I realized, I was like, in my own backyard, I thought I was lost. But I, you know, I have like some journal entries about Sundays are the best day in the world. 4 00:35:40Everybody does what they want. Even God rested on Sunday. And it was so much fun. Yeah. All by myself, just wandering around the city. But you know, people were like, oh right. Speaking of that, I remember I was dying during Eric Slater's interview because we got a phone call at like 6:00 AM, one day at apartment two downstairs. And it was Eric and he was, he had been arrested. And it must've been when you guys were doing Andrew CLIs and the lion, because he was like walking home. It was really late. He was walking home from our house, I guess. And the cops stopped him and arrested him. 4 00:36:21And we were like, he had to be like at the Merle reskin theater for this purport, like that morning. And I think we wound up calling John Bridges and it turns out they had just taken and he looked like a shady character. 3 00:36:38I don't know. But I wanted to ask 2 00:36:43Total digression, but I always thought in lineups, they got other criminal, like people that they know, they know and they can just random. Yeah. They get rent. I don't know about now. But you used to do this random ass people for lineups. Yeah. But the way you get them there is by arresting them. Well, I think you can, apparently in Chicago, 4 00:37:05I think he was drunk. He was probably stumbling. Maybe he was like, had a few beers and they were just like, oh yeah, public drunkenness let's go. But that was like one of the funniest. And it was like the day that my mother called me late, it was like crisis. You know, we went into crisis mode and it was like, she got out her clipboard and like gave us all the assignments. And then my mother called me that morning and she was like, is everything all right? And I always thought, I was like, you know, my mom just says that like intuition, you know? And I was like, everything's fine. You know? Like, and I remember saying to her, I'm like, I think your psychic should always, so you're, you're saying, so 2 00:37:47You didn't, it was, there was no, I mean, there was a warning without any information in it or 4 00:37:55Yeah, there wasn't really anything specific, you know? And like I had truly Kessler my second year for voice and speech. And I had had Ruth's Rupert who you, she was there for a really short period of time. And then she left, she came back and she was like, oh, I got a contract. I'll be here next year. And then she came back like the next week and was like, I'm leaving. And she got a job at Yale and she went off to teach at Yale and she taught Christian Linklaters work. And then Trudy, our second year. And I was sort of excited to, I guess, first she taught LSAC and other things and was doing Linklater again. 4 00:38:37So it was sort of like the same class again in a row. And I think Ruth was a really great Linklater teacher. And I don't know if I don't know Trudy and I just had something. I still tell, I, I S I'm still in contact with Ruth. She's my Alexander technique teacher now. And there was a 13 year gap in our relationship, but she'll always say like, oh, I'm going to this conference, Judy. I said, hi. You know, cause when I got my letter, it said that I had three absences from voice and speech. 4 00:39:18And to this day I say, no, I didn't, I would have never done that. Like I was pretty committed. She, I had a full freedom, so I was born like tongue tie and she was like, I want you to go. I never had any speech issues, but she's like, I want you to go see this doctor. So I went to see this Dr. Bastion. And he was an ear nose and throat guy that worked with actors in Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, let me clip it. And he's like, I've never gotten to do it. And I was like, so it's a little thing underneath your tongue. So it's, it actually tells your tongue behind your bottom teeth. Like everybody's develops that way when you're pouring it recedes. 4 00:40:00If you're not, they usually just clip it when you were born, but they never discovered mine. And so I wound up letting this doctor like do it. And then I had rehearsal for like my intro with Trudy. And I just remember meeting her in her office and her being like sticking her thumb in my mouth and being like, oh yeah, you have a significant overbite. Like, and just saying like, you know, you don't have a speech issue, but maybe if you got your tongue released, it would change your speech. You know, it's, I would love to see what it does. You know, I just felt like I was pretty committed to it. And David was my acting teacher second year. 4 00:40:40And in David's class it was like, I could do no wrong. You know what I mean? I remember like almost hating it, like him being like some like, okay, you know, you critique each other's like scenes or improv or whatever you were doing. And he would say, so who saw what ed was doing? And somebody was critiquing it. And they were like, what are you? He was like, you know, what are you talking about? Like, he was like, he was fine. Like, he was like, my opinion is the only one that matters. So, you know, and just being like, okay, so now they hate, 3 00:41:14I have to say I'm shocked that, you 2 00:41:16Know, usually the story is that the second year acting teacher hates your guts and then you get cut. Like, that was my experience. Cause I was cut and then asked back crazy, crazy. But, but it's interesting that David, that thought you could do no wrong in your, as your acting teacher? 4 00:41:39Well, it was really weird because I had David and first quarter I was in David's intro and he gave me a better grade in my intro. Then he did an acting class and I remember him saying to me, do you know why I did that? And me being like, yeah, like, and really having no clue. But I remember, I remember getting into a fight with him in that rehearsal for that intro and him saying something to being able to like, okay, well what, what, what do you want? And he was like, I don't know what, you know, just, you better try something else. Cause that's not working. Like he yelled at me and everybody was like, oh, and David and I used to take these, walks around the block at the theater school and have these little chats. And he was like, you know, he, he, he gave me every indication that he thought I was talented. 4 00:42:22And then I remember my second year of him saying to me, do you really want to be here for another two years? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I really want a degree. And he was like, what are you going to get out of us Shakespeare classes? And I remember, and I was like, oh. And then I remember telling him about my issues with Trudy and him being like, you know, Trudy he's like, I'm the head of the voice and speech, which I didn't even didn't really even know at the time, you know, it was odd to me that he was, and, and then, but then he gave me, but then he gave me a bad grade, like enacting class. And so it was sort of like this. I was like, what the fuck? 4 00:43:02Like what, you know? And I just, you know, and then in my intros I was always like a middle-aged alcoholic. Like every single one, you know, or that I was like the alcoholic vicar in that horrible, a farce that thought it'll coat did where my, like I walked in the room in my pants, you know? And Corpus, yeah. It was like, first of all, farce is tough. You know, it's a tough, and for some reason they thought, you know, I heard this a lot about our class. Like, oh, these guys could do it. Like they could graph it. Well, guess what we couldn't and it fucking sucked. It was just like Riddick. 4 00:43:43I was like, Betty Hill, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was just like, it, it, 2 00:43:50It, it's hard to be funny care, but like the experience it makes you funny 4 00:43:59Is that I remember seeing David's like intro second quarter. It was like bomb and Gilliad. And I was like, why don't I get to play one of these like transvestite hookers? Like I can do that. And then it just wasn't, it, it was like the autumn garden, my last one. And again, it was like, I mean, Eric Yancey, I drink so much peach tea my second year of, cause the dining room was my first one. And it was like all of these like waspy, you know, I played like one little boy, that's the scene. We, we, we sorta had a yelling match about, but it was so I don't know. I mean, I was, I was, I remember Noel being like I got in and you didn't. 4 00:44:43I was just like, I didn't really, the thing was, I thought they stopped going to New York for the, I didn't ever have a desire to be on television or in the movies I wanted to be in the theater. And I went to the theater school and I sort of saw that transitioning transition happening. It was kind of like, I have no desire to live in LA. I just think it's like the new years and fake foods. Like, that's all I could think of when I'm thinking of LA. Like it was a desert, everything there is artificial. Like every, every blade of grass is like planted. I don't know. And I thought I was okay with it for a while. Cause when I moved home and my stepfather died kind of suddenly like that summer and you know, it was one of those things like, okay, everything happens for a reason, you know, it's really hard. 4 00:45:34Yeah. My mom, my father had passed away, but he was sick for a really long time. And so I think she was like prepared for that and she wasn't really prepared for my stepfather dying. And so I was okay with it for a long time, but I really, till recently we realized like, I think it really, you know, I remember somebody calling me and asking me to do it a play and not wanting to do it because I had to a lot of musical theater. And I was like, when I did the first play, I was like, wow, musical series is so hard. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, you know, I sang a lot, but I was like, I hate singing. 4 00:46:14You know, I really don't even like it. And I just, so I, you know, I never saw myself as any Shakespeare characters. Like I was like, you know, I had to read every male part in high school and English class. I read every like male part while the teacher read every female part. And I was like, I hate Shakespeare. Maybe this isn't the place for me. What was disappointing about it is that I wanted it to agree, you know? And I was a good student and I think that my circumstance, this is just sort of allowed me to sort of flounder a bit and not really have a, a footing, not really have any direction, you know? 4 00:47:01So I had some great mentors and I did do some more things and, but very little. And then I moved to New York and it was really not about that. You know, it was about just see what else was out there. I just excited. I was like, okay, I'm moving to New York. And I had worked for J crew for a couple of years and I had left and I called them up. It was like a move to the city. I needed a job and they gave me a job and I started going out in the city. Somebody took me to a nightclub and it was like the first time ever. I was like, you know, we would go see, I, I saw the last grateful dead show in Chicago. 4 00:47:45Like we went to fish, meaner Bana when we were out there. And when I went into this like sort of world of these nightclubs and sort of saw all of these like characters that were present, I sort of became one. You know, I was, it was like my job to go out and, and have fun in sort of a clown. And it was, it was an interesting time in my life. I like to call it the turn of the last century, but it was like from, so I guess I, I moved to the city from like 98 till 2000, or I guess it was 99 till 2003 is when I moved here. 4 00:48:37So I was there for about four years, you know, I worked at the world trade center that was, you know, and I think that compounded things. And I think it sort of made me realize that I was having a lot of fun in New York. You know, I had this, I had great roommates. We had a great loft in Brooklyn, these crazy parties that were like before Brooklyn was cool. I say like, we've priced ourselves out of it. You know, we made it cool. And then, but it was nothing I could sustain or really even monetize. 4 00:49:20You know, there was always like the job that I had to maintain to with, I really had no desire to do theater and I didn't for about another 10 years till I moved here. And, and I was okay with that, you know, I was sort of working in retail and I realized, you know, later that the whole going out and becoming this like character, which I didn't really think I was doing at the time, but I really was, you know, doing things that I'd never done before, or, you know, even these parties were like insane. 4 00:50:02We would like wear like Russian military uniforms and have 200 people in a Japanese go-go band at our house and fill up, we would like fill up kiddie pools with water. We had a great space. And so we did, and I lived with a caricature artist and all these kids from Vassar and it was just, you know, we'd get like a sitar player and, and have like an opium den. And I just 2 00:50:40Have a question I have to go back to, what was your character like? What was your, your nightclub character? Sure. 4 00:50:48So I always joke that I looked like, like huckleberry Finn, you know, I was working for J crew, but I was, I was just myself, you know, I, I would, I had my baseball cap and I had this baseball cap that said ack, which is actually the three letter code for new work airport. And I'm sorry for Nantucket airport. My initials are the Newark airport and people. And so ack people. And I would like, have my pants rolled up different, you know, I worked for J crew. So I was like a walking, like, you know, the J crew like twist that, how it used to be pants rolled up at different lengths and like maybe, or I'd wear like a crusher hat or something. 4 00:51:29And I'd get in line with these people who were like going to bang, bang, and buying their like, you know, tight leather pants and stuff. And it just became like this. I was, you know, I was kind of like a quirky, you know, I dressed, I danced a little funny. I, I attribute movement to music to that. You know, I sort of just followed these impulses that had me sort of stomping my feet a lot. And I danced with my face a lot and I would show up with like a big bunch of gerbera daisies and a couple inflatable sunshines. 4 00:52:08And, you know, I had one friend Franco, who's the only person that I ever went out with. I could always go out by myself and, you know, leave by myself. And I would just, you know, do these fun things. Like, you know, I wrote like a Valentine to the world and like, you know, we put on red paper and pass it out to everybody. Or we would, we'd bring junior mints to junior, was the DJ and pass them out to everybody. Yeah. And people, you know, I was talking about the hat. People would say like, like, what does ack stand for? What does ack stand for? And I got, you know, and that goes to the three letter code for Newark airport. 4 00:52:52And I got so sick of it. I started this thing, like the hairball remover that Cass asked for by name, you know, like, and I didn't really, I never, you know, I still sort of felt like I didn't belong there. You know, it was kind of like this secret thing, but you know, you cold places all the time. And then people start, you know, recognizing you and, you know, you start like getting in for free or, you know, and I found these places where it just seemed, I was appreciated, you know, people would, and I met a lot of such interesting people. I mean, everybody from people who were, you know, Sharman to, there was some pretty, you know, crazy shenanigans that went on, you know, at the time. 4 00:53:44And some people that, I mean, everyone from Tonya Harding and then it comes out and she was interesting to me, but that's like the funniest story I ever time, I let her Newport cigarette for her. Like I do the Catholics, I would see it. Evan am, you know? Okay. 2 00:54:01So I'm just, there's like a theme here, which is that you went to the theater school for two years, and then all of a sudden you had to leave while you might have otherwise been processing your grief about that. You had to go all of a sudden process with your mom because she lost her second husband. And then you moved to New York to get that life going. And then nine 11 happened and you were working at the world trade center. So you have had major Griffis interruptus. 4 00:54:36It's true. Yeah. I, I think, and, and, and I've recognized in my life that I have a hard time, like getting things done that are in my normal routine. Like say, like getting my car inspected, you know, it's like once a year and it's like, whoa, you know, so when things like that happen, it takes me a long time to regroup. And you know, I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and say that I'm, that it, you know, these things like ruined my life in any way, shape or form, you know, I I'm, I'm so lucky that I, you know, I've been in the circumstances that I've been in and that I have a great family and that, you know, I always had a bit of a safety net. 4 00:55:25Not like some people, like, I didn't really have a safety net. Like I felt like in New York, I couldn't do theater because I wasn't independently wealthy. And I, and there was just no place to, you know, you really, it just doesn't exist anymore. You know, if you notice people who go to New York and become directors and, you know, actors are either, you know, inherit that position. I have 2 00:55:52Another way of making money, even though even this Celia Keenan Bolger's of the world. I mean, it is, you cannot, you cannot make a living, even if you're on Broadway. 4 00:56:04Right. It's true. You know, and it's, and it just became, I just became disenchanted with it. You know, I was like, I mean, I still love the theater, you know? And I was, like I said, I was really lucky. I had, you guys were talking about those monologue books, know like Jocelyn Baird is the woman who edited all of those books, which I didn't know, but she was someone who I did theater with when I was like in high school, she's who she picked my audition monologues. And she, you know, I'm still in contact with her. She's a playwright. And she went to Yale. She coaches kids on how to get into programs now, stuff that I was like, what is my brand, that kind of thing. 4 00:56:54But it's like, I, commercial theater I guess, was exciting to me in a certain way, but it was, you know, it was other theater that I liked too. And I don't think it was just theater. I think it was just art, you know? And I think it was like art in life is what I've discovered. You know, like everything is art, you can make anything artistic. And I think that's kind of what I do. I just haven't shaped it in a way, like, I need to write a book. 2 00:57:28You haven't been able to shape it because you've had suspend a lot of time in reaction mode, you know, to various losses 4 00:57:35That, yeah, like the whole nine 11 thing. I, you know, I remember, I didn't tell anyone that for years, you know, it was just something that, I mean, my friends knew there was, there was an Edward Ryan who died that day, who was from Westchester and star. And so there were people like my old boss, Alyssa, who was a harpist and a composer who I worked for as a personal assistant. And, you know, she just heard like names bred off. She knew that's where I worked. You know, we didn't have very few people had cell phones. I ran into one of her three sons and he was like, we got to call my mother. 4 00:58:16I was like, she literally was, she was afraid to call my mom. She was like, that was the only contact number I had for you is your house phone. And I didn't want to upset her. And I was like, oh my God. I just thought I was Ted. I, I will, could been, you know, it was, yeah, it was, it was a rough, it was a rough day, you know, I've had better. And it was my first day back after like 10 days of vacation. And we opened, there was a mall in the building six where the big divot down to the path, trains wound up, you know, the, the second tower that fell. 4 00:58:58And luckily, you know, we were really lucky. We, I, we locked ourselves in at first. I mean, we didn't have any sort of clue what was going on, you know, when you were sort of in it, even it wasn't until we got to the Seaport that we realized that there was planes being flown into the building. You know, I was like, we heard the second plane and we crossed the street and we saw the second building on fire. But at that point we thought somebody was like dropping bombs or shooting missile. You know, we couldn't, you know, come up with the, the idea of someone flying planes into the building. And, and I was like, you know, what do I, what do we do? 4 00:59:41You know, I was like, we're dead. And I was all right with it actually, you know, it was a, it was a strange feeling, but I was like, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not going to spend my last moments here, screaming, yelling, running, like, you know, there's like this peacefulness about it. And I remember my nephew had been born, my sister's second son who lives here and I had never met him. And so that was the only like little thing I thought about as a regret. And then luckily we were okay, you know, and it was a long, you know, process of sort of also from my loft, I could see this, you know, smoke stack for the next, you know, three weeks. 4 01:00:29And I, even that day, I didn't really process anything until I got to a friend's house. And I, I, they were all there watching the news and I laid down behind them. They were like sitting in my futon and I like fell asleep. My adrenaline like finally ran out and then I woke up and I went home to my loft and the two girls that lived there, Lily and Rebecca were there and they just like grabbed me. And I don't think I stopped crying for like two days. Like I didn't leave the house. I didn't do anything. You know, I talked to my mother, but it was sort of like I was at work. 4 01:01:09So it was like, you know, and I was responsible for other people. And I, I felt like I also have to advocate for those people in the moment, you know, where they were like, oh, you know, well, you can come work at, you know, fifth avenue that day. And I was like, yeah, they're not going to work anywhere today. You know? And it was so I didn't tell anybody because people's reactions were so strong and I didn't want to like tell the story all the time, you know? And so I just didn't tell anybody for a long time. And I realized when I did that, it was actually helpful, you know, to talk about it and to talk about the, the impact of it. 4 01:01:54And I think that it, you know, made me a little more, maybe maybe careless or in a living, but also really living like really living, you know, in the moment, you know, and knowing what that meant, nothing like a little, you know, little flying a plane into your buildings to wake you up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was 2 01:02:22Yet the third or the fourth thing, which is that you graduated from school three years ago. I don't know if you were what you were planning to do when you left, but then the pandemic happened. 4 01:02:34Oh yeah. Not even three years ago. It was a year ago. Oh, that's when you were done was a year ago. Yeah, it was may. I went back to school in 2000, I guess it was 2019. I went for, so I got a bachelor's degree, but I went to Nepal for two years and I went there for a year and a half. So I somehow finished a four year degree in three and a half years, but yeah, I had enough credits. So I was like, bye. And yeah, I was stage managing for them a production. They were doing a little shop of horrors, which was really interesting stage managing and just sort of doing everything for them, for these kids. And I felt so terrible for them. 4 01:03:14And I mean, everything is still there. Like all the props we made, everything is just, I keep thinking of the Titanic it's frozen in time because they decided that even in spring, they were going to be fully remote because they didn't, they didn't think it was fair to leave it to the last minute to decide they wanted people to be able to kiss those sort of ducks in a row and, and know what to expect. Cause I think that was really one of the hardest things on any students or kids during the whole pandemic was like every, you know, the, from month to month, they didn't know what was coming next. You know? 2 01:03:49I mean, I kind of feel like that's how I had spent sort of the stopping and starting of Edward Ryan you've sort of stopped and started and stopped and started. And, and now you, you, you started school, you finished school and you were, and so the kids too, but also you stopping and starting. Yeah. 4 01:04:07Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that, you know, I have a little more, I have some more skills to deal with it. You know, I have a little more, it's like my work at school, you know, just cultivating creativity with this class that really affected me and sort of made me realize that I was more than just a theater artist probably. And do you remember those photographs in the like nineties of like different, like the Beastie boys are run DMC and they were on the rooftops of buildings. So this guy, John Nardell was that photographer. He worked for all these different it's, he's not the person you would expect to be taking photographs, but he was a teacher at the school and he taught this class and this class is so annoying. 4 01:04:55Like it's going to really drive me crazy. And all the kids were really like, he railed against like every assignment does a lot of work and we weren't allowed to buy anything. We had to make everything. And, you know, he gave us a lot of art supplies, but we had to like build vessels to like carry them in and incorporate every handout somehow creatively into this, into this book. And I mean, it was a lot of work and I would, I stay up till three o'clock in the morning, like, you know, making these things and doing the stuff. And he was like, you know, your work is like, incredible it's so it's, it's so much beyond, you know, what were some of the kids are doing here? 4 01:05:36And I was like, well, it shouldn't be, you know, like I have a little, few more resources than they have in their dorm and, you know, but, but the kids too, they were sometimes inspired in that to, you know, these kids to inspire them was like such a, a great thing because they were, so some of them were so disenchanted. And by the end of this class, you could just see that they had all found like what they were good at, like what sort of creative, artistic thing that they really connected with and that they loved and that they were just excelling in. And it was so exciting. Like it was really a, it was a great class. 4 01:06:18I 2 01:06:18Love that it was called cultivating creativity. 4 01:06:21Yeah. Good class. And I mean, you know, we either studied artists or, or, or techniques from Zen, Zen, Zen doodle, or 2 01:06:35Zen doodle. Yeah. There's 4 01:06:36Dan tangles. Yeah. Like he was a Venn tangle instructor. So, you know, we started with that. We did, like, we studied like in Stein and like, it is like sort of pop flags. And we each took a, a country. We were assigned to country and their flag and we, you know, created, you know, work from that. It was a really a great class, but hard, you know, these kids were not used to being asked to do to actually like work. I mean, the school itself knows who their students are. I think a lot of them have, you know, different accommodations and different, you know, struggles or opportunities. 4 01:07:18And, you know, they come from, like I said, an underserved communities and places, and it's like one of those places where, you know, if like Frank, the guy who ran the program was like, I couldn't let, just kidnapped graduate, you know, you know, like there's no way. And you know, whether it's paying his tuition bill or, you know, or raising money, whatever needs to happen. And, and, you know, he got me ready and Frank got me writing again. I directed, I took a directing class, which was a great read life, you know, so great books. 4 01:08:01And it was fun. You know, I really sort of was inspired to just be creative. And I looked at some MFA programs and I auditioned at Yale and I, I think I realized I did not get in, but I realized before that, that I, and Ruth was like, do you really want to go there? And I was like, you know, it's yeah. You know, and she's like, Hmm. And when I went there, I realized what she meant it, like, first of all, it's a shithole about bad facilities, you know, while you're waiting in an old computer lab with like broken computers, stacked in the corner, going this girl from West Virginia, she was a young girls high. And from what I was like, oh, this is what you thought. Yeah. You know, and I sort of felt like they had given the keys, you know, it was like the opposite of the theater school. 4 01:08:48It was like the kids were running that place. I mean, they held all the power and I think it's, it's sort of the way things are going these days, you know, with the me too movement teachers are one of the teachers at Yale said we are the only teachers that have to teach our students naked sometimes. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? We are the only teachers that have to teach their students naked. Sometimes 2 01:09:15The students are naked or the teachers are the students. What for, for zoom? I mean, on zoom, they're naked. 4 01:09:21No. I mean just different productions where, you know, they are directing a student who is nude and that's why there's intimacy coaches and all of that now, you know, to protect them. Because I mean, you can obviously see working in close proximity with a naked student that could open you up to problems, say like at the school, like what did Kat call it a spontaneous sex of study naps. I mean, there was a loud groping and touching going on that was like, you know, probably, you know, innocent, but you know, could certainly have been a trigger for some people. Sure. You know, like Trudy shoving her thumb in my mouth. 4 01:10:03Yeah. Not good. Not good. Yeah. So that was the day I had three, sorry, three absences. And I was, and I, myself use was damaged by habitual use was the other thing on my letter when I got cut from the theater school, self use was debt is damaged by habitual. You understand what that means? Well, neither did I. I mean, but as I think at that age, I just thought, well, I'm damaged. 2 01:10:31I also can tell you that Rick Murphy, when we were doing set, a very similar thing that David said to you, so I'm doing space work. Rick comes up to me, whispers in my ear. What are you doing? Drop out and go see the world. 4 01:10:48Yeah. 2 01:10:49And I'm like, I'm like doing work first year, second year. I don't remember. He whispered in my ear, why are you here? Go, go see the world or something. And I was like, what is happening? 4 01:11:02You know, I loved Rick Murphy. I mean, he was just like magic, right? I mean, this is not a pipe dream was like, so in captivity it was called freewill and one lust back then. And that was the other thing I wanted to tell you 2 01:11:20That it changed names. Oh no, no, no

Brian read etiquette books to learn how to have friends over for the first time since the pandemic and tells Marc all about it on the first in-person recording of "My Favorite Friendship".Notes/Resources:"How To Be A Gentleman" A Timely Guide To Timeless Manners by John Bridges"A Gentleman Entertains Revised and Expanded: A Guide to Making Memorable Occasions Happen" by John Bridges"Emily Post's Etiquette 19th Edition: Manners For Today" - Lizzie Post & Daniel Post Senning FOLLOW US:Brian Wohl:Twitter: http://twitter.com/brianwohlInstagram: http://instagram.com/brianwohlFacebook: http://facebook.com/brianwohlMarc Muszynski:Twitter: http://twitter.com/marcmuszynskiInstagram: http://instagram.com/marcmuszynskiFacebook: http://facebook.com/marcmuszynskiMy Favorite Friendship:Facebook: http://facebook.com/myfavoritefriendshipInstagram: http://instagram.com/myfavoritefriendshipTwitter: http://twitter.com/myfavfriendship

DONATION LINK https://fromtheracksandstacks-s8re.squarespace.com   This Episode: At the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002, while working at Blockbuster Video, I met a customer who offered me a job on his construction crew. He introduced me to the legendary music of Bob Marley, I introduced him to Alternative Rock. While listening to the radio on the way home from a long day, a song played that raised both of our eyebrows. I bought the album, which we listened to nonstop while on the job. The album was Bleed American, the band was Jimmy Eat World, I’m C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks!   Intro song: Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL] Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/de6xhLYLp5w​   First Transition: Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL] Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40​   Second Transition: This one was written and recorded by yours truly.    Closing: Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...​)http://audionautix.com/  

Most corrupt city in the Union, a River of blood but the best Pizza in the world...CreditsAuthors: Kraig Blackwelder, Jackie Cassada, Tom Dowd, Harry Heckel, Kenneth Hite, Forrest B. Marchinton, Deena McKinney, Nicky Rea, Jon Shepherd, Greg Stolze, and Chuck WendigVampire and the World of Darkness created by Mark Rein•HagenDeveloped by: Justin Achilli, Bill Bridges, Ken Cliffe, Will Hindmarch, and Ethan SkempEditor: Scribendi.comEditorial Assistance: Lydia LaurensonArt Director: Pauline Benney and Aileen MilesBook Design: Mike Chaney with Becky Jollensten, Aileen Miles, and Pauline BenneyInterior Art: Abrar Ajmal, John Bridges, Brian Leblanc, Jamie Tolagsen, Michael Kaluta, Samuel Araya, Marko Djurdjevic, Conan Venus, Mark Nelson, Jean-Sebastien Rossbach, Jason Chan, Carrion Antoine, Cyril Van Der Haegen, Vince Locke, Rebecca Guay, Josh Timbrook, Talon DunningFront Cover Art: Tim BradstreetPurchase it here: World of Darkness: ChicagoSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/25yearsofvampirethemasquerade/posts)

Intro: tracking the weather, gardening, unhelpful aphorisms.Let Me Run This By You: memoryInterview: We talk to Paul Holmquist about making a difference through teaching, learning Laban Movement Analysis, and making career moves in theatre. Plus, a truly horrifying story.  FULL TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1: (00:08)I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How are you? Speaker 2: (00:32)Good. How are you? I'm pretty good. I mean, yeah. I'm I'm the Midwest is going snow. Are you getting snow today? Oh, don't. Oh God. Don't tell me good Lord above. Oh, hell Jesus. Um, I mean, I can not let me put it out into the universe. I cannot handle that. I cannot. Yeah, we're just going to put it out there. Nope, Nope. Nope. It's a big part path. I feel, I feel, um, I feel interested. I'm interested in that. You can, you can be. Yes. You can have a curiosity, curiosity, but I'm not, but I don't want it for the East coast, but just the Midwest, like a lot of stuff. I don't know, like wintery mix is how they put it. Speaker 2: (01:33)Okay. You keep tabs on the weather in Chicago. Yeah, because I'm, I'm really, I have to like really pump myself up that I moved. Like, it helps me to feel like I made the right choice. That's interesting. And um, my people in my family do that people in my family, like every once in a while, every once in a while my mom would call and she'll be like, she'll tell me, she'll say like, is it snowing there? And I'm like, what? She, yeah, every morning my family is obsessed with the weather. Yes I can. My cousin Roxie, she gets all the radars and she's tracking and she knows exactly what's coming this way. I mean, she should be a meteorologist frankly. She totally should have her own show on YouTube. She's a she's. So on top of the weather and my whole family is like that. Speaker 2: (02:23)I think it might be. I mean, it makes sense like that, that would have been handed down if, if it were from farmers, you know, like that would, it wouldn't be a big deal to like being to the weather. I that's like my favorite. Um, the only thing, well, not the only thing, but there was, when I went to, after my dad died, I went to the partial hospitalization program, um, in Highland park hospital. And um, in that time I had a bunch of therapists and some of them were horrible. And what, but one this one young and now looking Speaker 3: (03:00)Back, they were young as hell. There were young therapists and they were probably like, what? In the, uh, anyway, this one therapist said it was a gloomy day. It was a spring gloom or like summer gloomy day. And everyone was like, Oh, this weather. And he said, you know, I just have this story. You know, whenever I, whenever I have the glooms and I feel like, and at the time I thought he was a P an idiot, but he said, when it's I had planned to go to the beach today after our therapy. Right. But now I can't go to the beach and I was just thinking, it reminds me like somewhere I'm, I'm off and depressed and somewhere there's a farmer. That's rejoicing because his life is saved. Oh, Speaker 2: (03:44)Wow. Oh, wow. And Speaker 3: (03:46)I was like, it's great Speaker 2: (03:48)Perspective later. Speaker 3: (03:51)I was like, Oh my God, that is so deep. And this farmer is like dancing because his farm is saved. And I'm like, but you know, and it's not to diminish anyone's pain, but it's also just perspective. Like you said, like perspective somewhere, someone is happy and falling in love for the first time or somewhere, you know, like, Speaker 2: (04:10)Absolutely. And for some reason that also just reminds me of maybe just because talking about Chicago when I was an intern, social work school intern at Northwestern, inpatient, psychiatric, the thick people who worked that, I mean, people who work in psych hospitals are so interesting. Especially if they've been working there for a really long time and this, uh, OT, occupational therapist, guy, Fred Mahaffey. If you're out there, Fred, I love you. You taught me so much. Um, he, he's the person who introduced me to DBT. Um, and I was sitting in his group and he came in and he said, I just got a very upsetting, or I got a very troubling phone call, but I couldn't get into it because I have this group. And so right now, the thing I'm going to practice is, I can't know until I know Speaker 3: (05:06)Fred, you're amazing. Speaker 2: (05:08)Right? I mean, I think about that all the time. You can't know until, you know, which is really so much about worry and anxiety. It's all this worry about the things that we don't know. And sometimes that's appropriate sometimes. Yeah. You should be worried because something terrible is going to happen. And other times you just waste all of the in-between and then it turns out to be nothing. And you've just been tied up in knots for no reason. Speaker 3: (05:32)I am. The more, the older I get, the more I'm I sort of, um, am drawn to, um, Tibetan, Buddhism. And I am reading, I read it every couple years. I read Pema childrens when things fall apart, heart advice for hard times or difficult times. It's brilliant. It's it's saving me in terms of, it goes beyond just don't strangle your hustle. It goes beyond that into life. Has you licked life when life has you licked when you're licked, there is no hope. And that is truly where the new beginning begins. Oh, wow. I can get on board with that because when I, it reminds me of, and they talk a lot about, uh, she talks, Pema talks a lot about, and I'm sure she's not the only one, obviously in Buddhism. Groundlessness how we are. We are grasping for the ground at all times. And there is no ground. Speaker 3: (06:33)Now look, if you're in acute psychiatric distress, this is not a helpful book because it is, I'm not saying that, but if you have some perspective, like we're saying, if you have like, I have, I'm not in acute psychiatric distress, praise God. Um, but once, once you can get stepped back a little bit and see, Oh my, my addiction to hope my addiction to things are going to get better is actually, might not actually be helping me as much as I think that it is. Um, when I'm licked in my life, when I, when life has nailed me is true. And I can admit it is truly when I begin to settle in and good things happen in my life. It's just every time. Wow. Which is why 12 step programs work. Absolutely. Yeah. That's Speaker 4: (07:28)Notion of like clinging always to hope. That's very interesting. I remember this patient. I encountered also when I was in training, I think it was also at Northwestern. I think looking back, she had like low IQ, you know, if you have low IQ and personality disorder, that's a tough combo because a lot of the what's necessary for healing personality disorders, like a great understanding of what you're doing and how she's just so sweet in a way she'd come in. And she had all these aphorisms, she was, and I just got to keep the hope alive and I just got it. And I just got it's tomorrow's another day. And you know, and I w I always pictured her like a leaky bucket. Cause she'd get all filled up, you know, in this group with everything she needed. And then it's like, the minute she passed the threshold of the door, it all just leaked. Right. Speaker 3: (08:28)Oh my God. Speaker 4: (08:29)And I remember thinking like, maybe all these positive messages are actually really not helping her. Cause it's, it's, it's giving a, I don't want to say it's a false hope, but it's like, and I hate this and I've said this on the podcast before. So I apologize for repeating myself, but I hate the good vibes. Only no bad days crew, because it's so unrealistic. And it makes people paradoxically so much more. Speaker 3: (08:57)And I think it makes them enraged. So I think the under for me, what usually yeah, under and under rage is extreme for me is extreme sadness and hopelessness. And, but the rage that comes up w with, you know, life is good. Crew is like, when people don't jive with it, because it's like, if life is good, then dot, dot, dot, wired children murdered. If life is good, then why are police killing? You know, like what are you talking about? And I think that's a spiritual bypass people do. Speaker 4: (09:32)So if I'm going to make an inspirational mug, mine is going to say, life is good dot, dot dot sometimes because it is good sometimes. And then on the other side, life is bad dot, dot, dot. Sometimes like the point is you take the good, when you can get it, Speaker 3: (09:51)[inaudible] burn out. I loved that show. My God loved it. Speaker 4: (10:02)2d on roller skates. I lived and died by T I w I roller skated because her, Speaker 3: (10:08)I was going to say, is that part of your cause you're a roller skater. Yeah. Uh, I was a big Joe fan, Speaker 4: (10:14)Joe. Aha. Yeah, she was cool. She was cool. Hated Blair. Of course, Speaker 3: (10:17)Most people did, Natalie. I felt bad for her Speaker 4: (10:22)For Natalie too. I kind of felt like she wanted her to get off. Speaker 3: (10:27)She was a trope. You know, she was a sad, sad truck. Well, I have been accepted as, uh, an official member of the Myrtle tree climate action team. [inaudible] Speaker 4: (10:41)The name of the group that does your CSA or your, whatever, your Speaker 3: (10:45)It's, the Myrtle tree cafe. They that's where they used to meet before COVID Myrtle. I think put, forgive me. If I say this wrong, a Myrtle tree cafe, climate action team. It's amazing. We're superheroes. That's a crazy, like I'm an official member. So I get a key and an orientation Wednesday, I'm telling you that gardening has really changed and changed my life in terms of my health and, and feeling like I'm doing something for the planet, both it's crazy. It's just gardening. It's not like I'm, you know, Speaker 4: (11:24)But that's what they say. Little acts are revolutionary. Like just being responsible for like learn, learn, even just learning where all your food comes from. And like, that's, that's a smaller Speaker 3: (11:36)Food came from. McDonald's like, I literally thought that that McDonald's was the food source, you know, or Jack in the box. That's not actually what it is. I was going to ask you, what are you going to grow? That's my question for you. Uh, we have Speaker 4: (11:54)Some debates about the things to grow. And mostly I was doing this. I was picking things out with my oldest son and he, he was actually being quite logical about it. He, I wanted to get kale and co and he was like, mom, nobody likes kale, including you, which is really true. And you're the only person who likes Brussels sprouts. And you're the only person who likes cauliflower. Let's get broccoli and bell pepper. And he loves hot things. So we got some jalapenos. And so we got a broccoli, a jalapeno, a bell pepper. And then we have, um, uh, my daughter has, she was really into the seeds thing. She got like a lunch and I don't feel, I feel like none of them are gonna work out, but she got some flowers and Speaker 3: (12:50)Some flowers might they're super hearty. Some flowers might come up and last for about 45 years. So just sunflowers are hurting. Speaker 4: (13:00)You have a great spot for sunflower. So that'd be great. So anyway, so we're just starting like easy peasy because you know, we don't, we've never done it before and we're not sure how it's going to go. So that is one to invest a bunch of money in something Speaker 3: (13:12)We'll do that. And if you have pests that are non, uh, this is so interesting to me when you have like aphids or inch worms or stuff like that. A lot of times, not all the times, I'm learning a lot of times, it means that your soil health is in jeopardy, not the actual plant. This is crazy. So a lot of times pest the TAC plants that aren't doing so well. Anyway, it's so crazy. I never knew that. I thought, Oh, they attack it because they're. Well, no, they might be, there might be an occasional inchworm, you know, like a Trump worm. But, but, but a lot of times pest can tell when the plant, the soil, Speaker 4: (13:55)I'm carrying around a semi with a bit to pay or whatever, Speaker 3: (14:02)There's our chick there's McDonald's McFlurry in one hand. Um, there's our kids show right there. Let me run this by you. Speaker 4: (14:23)I have a thing to talk to you about that is, um, it's kind of a bummer and I'm feeling good. I'm not sure if I should bring it up, but maybe I'll try to have a new perspective about it. Okay. I've had a couple memory slips that have been troubling. Speaker 3: (14:42)Oh, tell me all about, it Speaker 4: (14:45)Was one moment. I just couldn't remember my passcode to my phone. Okay. It came to me a couple of hours later. Okay. But I thought it was this one thing, and then it was Aaron had my phone and he's like, what's your passcode? And I, and I give him this passcode that doesn't work in it. And I'm like, Oh, well, maybe it's. And then all of a sudden it just like vanished. And I really started freaking out, like, yes, I freaked freaking out because, and I think, I think this might be something I inherited from my mother is very concerned about losing her memory. This is like her biggest fear. So whenever she forgets something, she panics and to the point that I feel she doesn't allow for any just normal forgetting of things, which I haven't had that problem berating myself for the normal forgetting things. Speaker 4: (15:44)But that passcode thing freaking like, it just, it just was gone. It was there. And then it was gone. That was one. And the other thing I'm probably going to have a hard time remembering. Um, no, I think actually there, isn't another thing like that. It's just more that I, it's just more that I, you know, because kids have great memories and my kids are constantly telling me, remember when we, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, ah, thankfully I really did. We, did we do that? Is that normal? Or should I start my Gingko biloba? I do so many, a word puzzle. I should have good brains. Speaker 3: (16:19)So what, the first thing that comes to mind is that I know, okay, this podcast right. Is bringing up a lot of memories for people, for us and for people. Okay. I believe that sometimes trauma stored when it comes out or even, even, even all this we're, we're taking in other people's trauma too. Right. That's true. So your mind can only hold so much. So I'm wondering if that also is a response to an overload of other your, and you do all the editing. You do every, you listen and listen. So you're taking it in over and over again. And the, and people were traumatized, you know, not everybody, but a lot of people that we talked to have been traumatized by their experience. So, uh, in college and so, and subsequent and what it meant and all that. So I'm wondering if you're partially it is just a trauma re a response to a lot of information going into your brain. Um, Speaker 4: (17:32)It could be, and as a, as a mother, I do have to remember so many. I mean, honestly, the landscape of what I have to remember is it's astounding. Um, and, and people do say that there's like a fog of motherhood that, you know, you never, you never get it back, but you have an excellent memory. You have an excellent short-term memory. Well, your long-term though. You've struggled to remember things about Speaker 3: (17:59)I never, no, I also never remember your birthday to save my life. Now I have it in my phone. Like, it's just so weird. And it's not just your birthday. I don't remember people. People will tell me my birthday is September 22nd. And I'm like, no, no, it's not. I went so no. So my memory, my memory, I also don't have children, but also, um, I know that, okay. So when my, when my father was dying in the hospital, my memory, I couldn't remember where I parked ever. When I would go visit him at the hospital, I would be sobbing, wandering around the parking lot until one came to pick me up in a little cart and drove me. And he said, the guy said it happens all the time with people visiting loved ones in the hospital, because they're so traumatized. They never remember where they parked, even though I would re I would like, I didn't even write it down, you know? Cause I was so wigged out, but I would say C 14, C four, or whatever it is and no memory after I would visit my father in the ICU. So I just think trauma and, um, or just Speaker 4: (19:10)Even upsetting feelings can Speaker 3: (19:13)Overload, um, listening to other people's stuff. It's it's our brains are not that big. If you think about it's like we have a super, I mean, you know, there's a lot there's and we only use, they say part of it, but I would venture to say, we use more than they say. Um, Speaker 4: (19:28)Yes. I recently read that that's a myth. It's not true that we use 10% of our abuse, all of our brains. I mean, which is not to say that you can, I think what that myth comes from is like, you can expand your, you can flex your muscle, your, the muscle of your brain, you can strengthen it or weaken it. Um, which is why I'm like addicted to doing all these little puzzles. Speaker 3: (19:51)Yeah. I mean, I know that it's scary. So then it's scary. So I had a similar thing where when we came back from, I would have sworn that my code to the locker was we have a locker that has stores are male. It's like, it's really great package lacquer. And I just couldn't for the mine was more like, I just knew in my head it was a number. And so I kept entering it and it was like, no, no, no. And I was like, well, something must be wrong with this machine. I had the wrong number the whole time, but I was convinced that it was this one number. And I'm like, and anyway, I was dumbfounded when I found out it was really this other number. I was like, Speaker 4: (20:29)Yeah. I mean, I, I, now that we're talking about it, I, I do think it's normal, but it's also about aging. It's really hard to separate out. Oh, hang on. My phone is ringing. It's really hard to separate out the things that we should be worried versus the things that are normal. Right. Speaker 3: (20:50)Bought it with my ticker. I'm like, Oh my gosh. You know? And my, my cardiologist is not that worried, but then I get worried. It's just, um, you hit, this is what my in the hospital, what they told me, you hit 40, between 40 and 50. And the check engine light comes on 90% more than it ever does. And you're like, what is happening in what? And, and really what, we're, what I'm asking. Anyway, when I ask these questions of doctors and things is when am I going to die? Am I going to die? Is this going to kill me? And it's not, I'm not like we talk about, I'm not petrified of death. What I'm petrified of is losing control. Right? So I'm really asking, is this going to be something I have no control over? And like at any moment is some weird stuff going to happen to me. And the answer is maybe they don't know, but they, they know more than we do use because of all the schooling and the, and the research. But they, no one can tell you exactly when you're going to die. Speaker 4: (21:50)Dare I say, we can't know until we know always looking to land that plane right back and forth today, Speaker 3: (22:03)I'll tell you about my poop in the backyard story. All right. I was a latchkey kid, as a lot of us were. And my mom was a working mom who, who was very, very type a at times and mean at times. And, uh, woes talks about that. And Lee left my key, lost my key or left it at school or something came home. No key, no way. I was going to walk to my mom's office, which was only eight blocks away because I was petrified because I left my key. I was just going to wait until someone got home. Pretend I had just walked home. It was a whole orchestrated thing app. But then I had to go to the bathroom number two. And I was like, Oh no, what do you do? So a normal person might go to the neighbor's house. Who might, by the way, might've had a key and said, can I use your bathroom? Speaker 3: (22:56)But I was so embarrassed that I had to poop that I didn't. So then I'm waiting and I'm like, I got poop. So then I tried to break in the house by pulling screens out of the basement and I break a window and I'm like, Oh my God. Gosh. So it just, anyway, I ended up pooping in the backyard. Okay. This is rough pooping in the backyard doing my business. It was a whole situation. Uh, and then someone came home and I, I, my, I did my plan as a plan. Right. And did your scene, did my scene? It worked out, people were received really convinced. Don't ask me any of the technical stuff about the pooping, but anyway, so the point not that you were going to, but the, the, the point is then in the middle we're we're having, uh, a fine evening. And then I hear my mom's screaming in the basement. Oh no. She's like someone tried to break in and I don't say anything. This is the thing about fear and shame. I say nothing. They call the police. Speaker 4: (24:03)No. Oh dear. Uh, Oh, this is not good. Speaker 3: (24:07)He's come. And they're like, and I'm petrified. They're going to dust for prints. And then match as only a child who was obsessed with true crime. This was right around the time of America's most wanted and uncle mysteries. And I'm like, Oh my God, how do I get off my fingerprints? I didn't go down that road. I didn't cut myself or hurt myself in any way. Other than my pride and shame, the police are like, well, it, yeah, it looks like someone may have tried to break in, but so then, but they left, but then it didn't end there in the middle of the night, I set my alarm and I went down into the basement and I took the glass, the remaining glass, and I walked three blocks and put it in someone else's garbage so that they could never find my prints again. Speaker 3: (25:03)So I was telling this to a friend and they were like, Whoa, we were unpacking it. And I guess the thing is, I was so ashamed. It was so I was so ashamed of the mom thing, but it manifested in the poop thing. And like, just ashamed that I had needs of any kind or that I would make a mistake or forget something that I went to such lengths to cover it up. And I just, I think we do these things and it just reminds me of like, you know what we always say on this podcast, which is like, you know, it's better to just own up, but when you're a kid and you feel like you're going to die or something terrible is going to happen to you, if you, if you own up to your mistake, you go through such lengths. And I just am not willing to go through those lengths anymore. I just can't do it. I just, it's not worth it. And one of the things Speaker 4: (25:56)Is that we've learned from the people who have almost come on the podcast, but then ultimately said, I can't, it's too painful. Um, we've often had the experience that those people seemed perfectly happy, go lucky, et cetera. So, so, so we, as humans are constantly berating ourselves, like you say, for having needs, for having bad experiences, to the point that we won't share with anybody that we're having a bad experience, which of course makes us feel worse, more lonely, more isolated, more helpless, more hopeless. Um, so that, Speaker 3: (26:37)You know, it's almost like Speaker 4: (26:39)The dam, the dam breaks you, you, you can only shove or, or the image of the closet. You can only shove so many things in the closet. And one day you open up the closet and it just can't take it anymore. And it all comes spilling out. And it's understandable. I'm not saying that people should, you know, I'm not saying that it should be any other way than it is. I'm just saying, I guess what I'm really saying is if you're 25 and listening to this, and you're a person who's hiding all of your things, just ask yourself, what is it, what am I hiding? What am I really afraid of? And like, try to tease it out. Is this something you should really be ashamed about or afraid of sharing with other people? Because it's probably not that big of a deal. Speaker 3: (27:24)No, it's not worth it. It's not, usually it's not worth it now. I don't know. You know, for me, it has not been worth it. So I was thinking about that story, just the gymnastics. I went through the physical gymnastics. The, I could have cut myself on the glass, like what in the, but it just, it's a deep thing. And I was telling a friend that, and she was like, Whoa, this is so deep. So is it that you're Speaker 4: (27:49)Thinking because your mom is type a or you thinking she's, she's the kind of person who's definitely going to try to get to the bottom of this and would, would raise, would get to the point where she would be asking somebody to dust for fingerprints. Speaker 3: (28:06)It was more like, it was more like trying to put that floating Molly bolt shelf into the wall that, and the whole, it just, the story of my childhood was whenever I was doing the best I could. But whenever I, I would try to keep it all together. The whole would get bigger and bigger and no one would help me out of the hole. I think that's the other part is that I had to do everything by myself and that my mother would ultimately say, what is wrong with you? You should have X, Y, and Z. So instead of facing that shame, I just tried to do it on my own and it never worked ever, ever, never, ever. So I think, yeah, I think it's the fact of I was alone and I just kept making things worse because I didn't know. I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could share with anybody. So it's like at some point you got to step back from the hole in the wall and say, I'm licked. This has got me. I need to ask for a mechanic. A handy has, I don't even know a handyman to help, not a mechanic. Speaker 4: (29:12)The thing that also that, that tends to do in people, um, when they feel like they can never ask anybody for help is they can never develop intimate relationships with people because you, you, if you can never trust that. So when were you first in your life, was it with miles that you were first able to have real intimacy that you would just be yeah. Trust him too. Speaker 3: (29:34)Yeah. That needs to not go away to not leave, to not be like, Oh my God, you forgot your key. I'm never talking to you. You know, whatever it is. That was really, so I, that was, I was 30. I mean, come on. I mean, 30 years old, 30 years of not trusting. So it's really interesting. That takes a toll on your ticker. I'm telling you right now, you take a toll on your ticker. Um, yeah. So just, just a little, a light, poop story to wrap it up today. It's all, it's all, frankly, it's all poop stories. It's all food stories, right? At the end of the day, it's all, it's all shame Speaker 5: (30:19)Today on the podcast, we talk with Paul Holmquist Paul home quiz. We went to school with back in the day and after we graduated, he continued to be a theater actor for many years, and then transitioned into directing for the stage. At a couple of years ago, he felt he really wanted to make a difference. And he decided to become a high school English teacher, which is what he does now, in addition to being an artist he's thoughtful and kind his stories really were moving. And I'm so grateful that he decided to speak with us. So please enjoy our conversation with Paul home quit. This is my second year. I just joined the profile. Very new. You just became a teacher two years ago. Speaker 3: (31:06)Oh, that's cool. Where do you teach? Speaker 6: (31:08)Yeah, I teach at a South side, Chicago vocational high school called shop, uh, Chicago vocational career Academy. It's down by the Skyway. Like if you're driving down the Skyway, there's a giant, looks like a Batman villain, hideout. That's Chicago vocational. Speaker 3: (31:25)And so did you, um, how come you made that career shift? Yeah. Tell us all about it. Tell us all about it Speaker 6: (31:34)Is it's okay to talk politics. Sure. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, uh, you know, when Trump got elected, I was like, I gotta do something different and I don't quite know what it is, but maybe I could teach high school English because I have a background in theater, but it just seemed like maybe I need to do something because I was working a really great day job for like 15 years that had benefits in it, fairly decent salary, allowing me to do theater and stuff. But once the election hit, it was just felt like something I needed to change something. I was not very satisfied with. Um, you know, there was like no growth at my day job. What was that job? Uh, admin administrative assistant position at, at, uh, Columbia college. So I was still kind of close to the artistic community while I was working there. Speaker 6: (32:23)But, um, I had kind of a neurotic boss and I was there for 15 years and there was no, like, there was no growth. I'd kind of plateaued there. Um, and I wasn't making a difference anywhere, so it felt like I needed to do something. So I was like, I'm going to become a high school English teacher. Wow. Uh, so I went back to DePaul. I became a double demon and I that's what they call it. That's what they call it. Um, so I went to the college of education and got a master's, uh, there Speaker 2: (32:54)That's so great. Uh, education is a fantastic way to make a difference. Speaker 6: (33:00)Yeah. It's um, and it's, uh, a good segue from the, uh, from the theater work. I mean, there's, there's a lot of parallels Speaker 2: (33:09)Say, uh, beans. Didn't say her usual opening. Congratulations, Paul Holmquist you survived theater school. Speaker 6: (33:17)I'm still here to tell the tale. Speaker 2: (33:18)I want to be a double demon. I love this phrase. I think we should use it all ways. Even if you didn't get two degrees from DePaul, I feel I'm a double demon because I spent so much time talking about school. Speaker 6: (33:31)Right? You got a master's degree in the theater school after going to the funeral, Speaker 2: (33:35)By the way, I have masters in processing your theater school education. Speaker 6: (33:40)My I've been listening to your podcast now. And I had, I actually had to take a break before for the last week or else I'd be too neurotic about what I was going to say too, but I really find this podcast to be so personally helpful. Like I find it's like, it feels like a, like a group therapy kind of process, but protracted where Rouge taking turns, but hearing other alum, just talk about what they experienced. I was like, Holy cow, I'm not alone. I had similar experiences and wow. Wow. Speaker 2: (34:14)What's, what's an example of something that really resonated with you. Speaker 6: (34:18)Hm. Well, I guess I, I thought this is coming off of hearing, uh, interviews from, from friends like Bradley Walker and Eric Slater is I thought those upperclassmen guys had it all together. You know, Lee, Lee, Kirk, I thought these guys were like, just had just knew what they were going for and knew what they were doing. They just seemed so successful. And I was felt like, you know, like I was flailing along, trying to find my way. It's so great to hear that, um, to hear, uh, Bradley talk about his, uh, coin tricks with, with such despair, like as if it, but on my end, I thought he was the coolest dude. Like he had this cool thing and Slater was so awesome. Like, I didn't know he was insecure. Like all, I've just, all of that stuff is really, really great. Speaker 2: (35:10)I, I think that's, I mean, obviously that's part of why, why I think we do it is, is, is to, um, facilitate some kind of, if not healing, cause that's a kind of lofty word, but some kind of let's not go there, but, but, um, understanding or comradery in the fact that we all, um, went through this thing, it's true. And most people felt like an outsider. Most people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I want to be like, if you're, if you're in theater score right now, spoiler alert, everybody look around you, the person on your right and bruise on your left. They also feel the same way you do. Uh, but unfortunately we cannot say that at the time because we're busy, like trying to seem like we have it all together. That's, that's a common thing. And there is also a little bit of like, you don't want to admit weakness in theater school, except at the exact moment you need to access it for a scene that you're in. Speaker 6: (36:10)Well, I, and it really it's. It strikes for me the difference between being an MFA and being a BFA is coming in as an adolescent. Like you're still in developmental processes that haven't resolved while you're going through this, you know, self-reflective, um, w all the body stuff, uh, that comes up, and that was so fascinating to hear that it came up for other people too. Like all of that stuff is part of while we're in the process of personality development to have to be under fire from these artists, from the seventies who have different politics and strange ideas, Bob Dylan taught us. Speaker 2: (36:52)Yeah, exactly. So, but when you were doing your day job, um, that you left work, you were doing theater at night. Is that what, Speaker 6: (37:02)Yeah. Um, I mean, for the past, like 20 years, I've, I've directed and acted in shows, um, pretty regularly. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2: (37:12)And w um, did you have like a, a place where you mostly hung out a theater company that you were a part of, Speaker 6: (37:18)Right? Yeah. So right after college, um, I didn't really hook up with a theater company, but that seemed to be the, the way for Chicago actors to go after graduation was to like either link up together or link up with another theater company to start. And I, I remember because the timeline was so new then, um, and I did a show with them, like their second show that Barry Burnett directed. And, um, and I had a feeling in my, I had like this investment in my heart, like, okay, I'm going to be a timeline guy regret. I'm going to join up with PJ. And, and we're, I'm going to be a part of that Juliet and be a part of that group. And it didn't pan out that way. I ended up, um, kind of gravitating up into Andersonville, working with the Griffin theater where another, uh, DePaul alumni and Rick Barletta was, uh, artistic director. Speaker 6: (38:11)Um, he was a good minimal director, Goodman train director. Um, so I still stuck with some DePaul people, um, kind of grew up with the Griffin theater. And then, uh, in 2006, I joined lifeline theater, which is up here in Rogers park, uh, where I live. So it comes through from where I live and I've been there since we do literary adaptations, um, all original plays. And, uh, so I've had the pleasure of directing amazing stuff, like the count of Monte Cristo and Frankenstein and the Island of Dr. Moreau and, um, you know, British murder mysteries and a wide range of really cool. Speaker 2: (38:49)Fantastic. How did you go? So you started directing then. So how did you bridge that situation? Speaker 6: (38:55)I, I, yeah, I kind of, well through my, a little bit of set up here. So through my day job, I got, um, trained in Laban's movement analysis, which is a movement theatrical, physical expressional, expressionistic movement, modality. It's kinda like, um, I don't know if you remember, Patrice did stuff with us about, uh, punch and float, like dad, that kind of stuff. So, um, through the department I was working for, I was able to get a graduate certificate in this modality for free, and I wanted to apply it to my own acting. And so I, I was doing, I was playing a cat in a, uh, in a, in a young adult show called Angus thongs. And full-frontal, snogging at, uh, at Griffin theater. I played, I played Angus. I had no lines, but I was a cat and I was doing all this physical stuff. Speaker 6: (39:53)And I was getting to know through that production, um, a lot of the, uh, uh, main players that lifeline, because they were doing a lot of the design on this show and kind of getting to know them and having a good rapport with them. They're designers not, um, are not, uh, acting, directing people. Um, but I've developed a good rapport with them. And that kind of started to introduce me to the people at lifeline. And eventually they invited me to direct a kid's show, um, just as an experiment. And I tried directing, uh, Ricky ticky TAVI, and that became a great success. Um, and then after that, my first, actually my first main stage show was, uh, the Island of Dr. Moreau, which was a 90 minute immersive, violent horror piece. So I like, I right away jumped into something that was really bizarre and, uh, unusual. And since then, it's been just a blast. I mean, I get to get a lot of creative freedom. Speaker 2: (40:51)I have to ask you a question. I recently have heard this term all over the place immersive. And I don't, if I knew what it was previously, I, it, it didn't drop in because when I think of immersive, I think like you go to a haunted house, Speaker 6: (41:09)Right? No. Right, right. I guess I think of immersive as be like a full sensory experience, as much as possible. And, um, you know, in storefront theaters, especially places like lifeline, where you can have entrances surround the audience, you can really have the sense of like an actor's right next to you that, and they're acting like an animal breathing in your ear and it creates a sort of sense of tension. I'm going back 20 years. And I'm thinking about this show, but that's what I think of an immersive theater. People might think of it as like you're wandering around from room to room. You're more interactive like that, I guess. Speaker 2: (41:47)Yeah. It's I saw cats on Broadway in the eighties. It was him. Cats came right next to me. So that was immersive. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that because, uh, I, I thought it was one of those things, like I felt it was, it was too dumb to ask about. Okay. So where you, Speaker 6: (42:06)Uh, I'm from upstate New York. I'm from the Rochester New York area, a little suburb called Webster. Speaker 2: (42:12)Okay. And, um, but you have not ever returned there after school. You stayed in Chicago. You've been in Chicago, stayed in Chicago. Okay. Yeah. Did you grow up acting? Speaker 6: (42:22)Uh, yeah, I thought of this, of course. Like, I think it was around fourth grade that I was in my first school play and it felt like, um, uh, people liked what I was doing and it was, it was one of those, like I'm coming into my own. I'm like 10 years old, starting to figure out, you know, think about who I might want to be identity wise. And that seemed to, um, to work for me now, then when I changed schools in seventh grade, I was shy. I was never really athletic or, um, I picked up the trumpet, but I wasn't a great musician, you know, but I got a lot of great response when I did theater work. And that just kind of, uh, that's what grew, you know, you gravitate towards those things where you get the positive feedback Speaker 2: (43:12)That is. Did you have, did you have one of those intense, uh, like high school drama? I know you said you've listened to some of the podcasts. You've probably heard tell if some character, uh, teachers from high school. Speaker 6: (43:25)I had a wonderful drama person who was not, we had no drama classes. We did not take any acting classes or have any, any sort of immersion like that. We just did two shows a year, a play and a musical. And, um, uh, so you just hung out at the club and, and picked up what you picked up. But my drama teacher, she knew that I was serious and there was a, uh, a guy who's a year ahead of me in college who ended up going to Tisch, um, a year ahead of me in high school. I ended up going and he and I were, we did a two man show called the greater tuna. Can I show you something real quick? Hold on. I was like, tuna is hilarious. That's from greater China. So this is Mark and I in costume playing all of our different characters in high school. Speaker 2: (44:21)Amazing. Wow. That's some production value. Speaker 6: (44:28)So that's a high school. It's a two man show. Uh, multicharacter, it's kind of like mystery of Irma VEP where, you know, you run off stage and you change costume real quick and come back on. So Mark and I, we took, uh, our acting kind of seriously. We took ourselves somewhat seriously as actors. Um, and, uh, Tish was definitely on my list when I was looking for colleges. Speaker 2: (44:51)Well, yeah. How'd you end up at DePaul. I love the, the choosing stories or how they choose. Speaker 6: (44:57)Um, yeah, totally. So, uh, Tish, uh, I was accepted at Tisch and I even got a little money at Tisch, but they accepted me into the experimental theater wing and I had no idea what that was and it didn't seem like me. I mean, I had grown up in kind of a cul-de-sac of a suburb, you know, with very limited exposure to what experimental theater might even be. So, but DePaul just felt like so nice. I came to DePaul after, uh, visiting New York city and then auditioning there. And, um, so I auditioned at DePaul in the theater school building with Dave [inaudible]. He wouldn't remember that he was in my audition group, but I remember him in his cutoff jeans and his Janice chocolate. T-shirt very well. I was so enamored with him because he seemed so, um, organic. Whereas I was at wearing a black mock turtleneck and black jeans and slicked back hair, and I was trying to be very artistic. I was also in the middle of playing Tevya in a Fiddler on the roof in high school, the most Arion Tevya Speaker 2: (46:10)Well, you probably didn't have any Jews in your high school Speaker 6: (46:14)If I, yeah. I don't know if we did. They probably weren't involved in the theater department as much as I want. Yeah. So it was like, uh, I was coming in there trying to be a serious artist and I saw David, um, and I didn't know him, you know, at all. I was just seeing him for the first time. And I was like, this is wild. This is what I want to get into. So part of what inspired me was John Jenkins leading the, uh, audition, which I thought he was just a brilliant guy and watching David and the audition made me feel like I want to be there. Speaker 2: (46:46)Does he know that now? You we'll have to tell him to listen to this one. You just remind, I guess we haven't really ever talked boss, correct me if I'm wrong. Have we ever talked about the fact that we did part of the audition all together in the same room? Is that what you're talking about? Like the thing, Speaker 6: (47:07)So John, I remember this so vividly, uh, John had us doing a scenario where we were, um, a Hunter in a forest and we were going to like walk along one side of the wall and the animal that we're hunting does a diagonal cross across the room. And we chase after it and halfway through crossing the room, we leak like the animal is supposed to mimic the animals. And part of the crossing, like the hunting, we were supposed to step on rocks in a stream or something like that to cross it. And I was just like, Oh, you know, I had everything planned out. I remember overthinking it very much, but also like being in line, waiting your turn, you're observing how other people are doing it. And this is, this is where David really comes in because when he left like that animal, he seemed to take air in the room, uh, because he was Unbound by his own, you know, insecurity or at least that's the way I interpret it. Wow. I'm really, do you find David kind of funny? Speaker 2: (48:05)That's okay. It's okay. So you said taking yourself seriously and overthinking ding, ding, ding. These are things I really relate to. These are near and dear to my heart. What is your journey then of taking yourself seriously? And, you know, like, has there been any Speaker 6: (48:22)Evolution or moving on that, like, you're going to think I'm nuts for saying this, but I swear that the show has helped in a little way. So I feel like I'm still in a process of recognizing what my expectations were, you know, for myself and my career. How did those change was and how w how was I influenced to change my ideas about that? And where am I now? Like, what do I want for myself now as an artist? And then how has that shifted, uh, that, so I've done a lot of processing on those because I am in therapy and I have been for a while, but also your show has really helped also turn some pages for me. So, thanks. Speaker 2: (49:01)So welcome believably. Wonderful. Thank you. That's very touching. I just want it. So in terms of taking yourself seriously, I feel like there that's a way to go. I took myself. It was like, I had such self-centered fear that I didn't take myself seriously, but I took my fear really seriously, of the, of, of being at school. You know, it was different. I wish I had taken myself seriously as an artist, but really what I did was just dive right into my shame and feeling. I just really did a deep dive into that. And so I'm wondering, how did you learn to take you're like, I know we're saying like, taking ourselves seriously can be kind of a, it can be, um, an Achilles heel, but also like, did you just, were you just born with like, yes, I'm an artist and here I am at school? Speaker 6: (49:52)No. I mean, I think that what started up school was using alcohol and drugs to keep myself from feeling that kind of fear and insecurity. So, um, you know, going at school, going to classes with kind of a boldness and an energy while also fighting a little bit of a hangover, or maybe still maybe, maybe coming to class a little high, you know, that helped a lot. Now, there you go. That makes, and then, and it all fit in with taking myself seriously as an artist because artists drink get high all the time. You would talk about apartment, what was it through your car? And like, you know, we're going to get high and we're going to do space out there at work. Like I'm a serious artist, you know, I can really feel the weight of my space objects when I am stone. Speaker 2: (50:47)You guys, do you ever wonder, like, is that, do you think that's still part of the college? I guess it probably is. It's probably still very much a part of the college experience, Speaker 6: (50:57)Right? Yeah. I don't think drugs will ever stop being or anything that's illegal is going to stop. Speaker 2: (51:03)It's just that we T we talked to somebody last week who is at the theater school now he's graduating this year and I didn't ask him, but I wanted to know, like, so, like, what's the, I mean, he's talked very wonderfully about the experience of, of being an actor at the school, but I also kind of wanted you to like, what's the whole social scene. I want it to be like, where you like me drinking Mickey's forties, big mouth and peeing on school property, but I didn't ask him, but I did not ask that because I thought, yeah, he probably, he might not have wanted to say in any case in it. Speaker 6: (51:41)Well, um, my wife is on faculty there now, so she teaches, she teaches movement there now. And I've been back a couple of times that directed an intro there, and I've done some guest lecturing there. So I've been back in the new building and the old building before it was torn down. So I've kind of maintained some ties to the theater school over the years. Um, and I don't think, I think the students, the student experience has changed just because the times have changed so much, you know, and the, the, um, but, and I think they're a little bit more savvy than perhaps we were, they don't do the God squad parties, but I think they still probably have some form of God squad, but it's not the like, Speaker 2: (52:26)Right. That's probably for the best, you know, I was going to say the person we interviewed that is at the theater school, talked about your wife and said that one of the reasons that he loved the audition process was, or when he went, he took, I think, a movement class with her and, and that he talked about her. So anyway, we're coming full circle here. It's real crazy. Speaker 6: (52:47)That's great. And it's so fun to hear these stories too, and to talk about them with Christina, because she's working with Phyllis and Patrice, uh, she worked with John, she worked with John Bridges. She's, you know, she knows these people, so they're, and so that history is still living, you know, sensory still. Yes. Speaker 2: (53:03)So what did you, so you got this movement training and Oh, and you with it, you taught that's, that's Speaker 6: (53:10)A little bit of teaching that way. Okay. Speaker 2: (53:12)Sorry. Did you say where you were teaching that Speaker 6: (53:15)Columbia at Columbia college, Chicago, but not in the theater department. It was through this other, uh, graduate, uh, arts therapy department that I was working. Oh, okay. Speaker 2: (53:26)So now that there's no more cuts system there, isn't this a direct connection between the theater school and Columbia, because yeah. Speaker 6: (53:35)You don't have a feeder college going into going into the code base. Right. Speaker 2: (53:38)Is it still a very robust acting program there? Speaker 6: (53:41)Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, and still has that sort of scrappy energy, um, you know, Sheldon, I think really established, uh, um, um, uh, pathos around that place around that building and that program that still continues. Speaker 2: (53:59)Um, I was going to ask you while you were at the, the good old theater school, I remember you as being a musical theater guy. Am I making that up? Were you a big movie musical theater guy? Speaker 6: (54:11)I, yeah. I loved love to sing. Absolutely. And yeah, and Vanessa was more of the singer, but she and I would do, um, we were in that, uh, Michael Maggio, Keith redeem musical, the perpetual patient then Clemente was the lead in that, um, was that your final year? Maybe that was, yeah, it was after you got, Speaker 2: (54:34)But I was there. I remember. Yeah. Okay. So perpetual paste, that was a musical. Did you say Michael Maggio wrote it? Speaker 6: (54:41)Uh, Keith redeem wrote it. It was an adaptation of the imaginary invalid. So it was an adaptation of whole year made into a musical that, um, uh, um, Oh my gosh, Mike [inaudible], um, Mark Elliott Elliott wrote the music for Mark Elliot with the music for Keith redeem, did the script and the lyrics and Maggio directed. So Keith came to, uh, some of our rehearsals, um, because Keith and Michael had a relationship. So I got a lot of scripts autographed that day. Speaker 2: (55:16)How cool. So what are, what are some other roles that you loved or didn't Speaker 6: (55:24)Right, right. Um, well, working with Michael, I think were the two roles that really helped me understand myself as a character actor, I, where I did a missile Alliance, which Eric spoke about. Um, and I provided you one of the pictures of me, all the pictures of me have a mustache attached to them seem to be my go-to, but yeah, being, uh, being in an Ms Alliance and playing a character role in that with a kind of a goofy dialect and silly physicality and extreme stakes and working with like Tim Gregory and, uh, you know, Louise Rosette and Eric and all these Ellen and all these great people. Like I was, I was a junior and it was my, it was the fall of my junior year and I was on the main stage. And I remember that being like, that was pretty prestigious. That was pretty cool. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll probably forget that show so that one, and I would say perpetual patient were both really big for me in regards to embracing my character actor stuff. Speaker 2: (56:32)Anything, anything that you weren't so pleased about? Speaker 6: (56:37)Um, gosh, I mean, going, even going back to intros, I tried to, you know, you try to make the most out of everything, even when I had like, um, a, like a walk-on role in something you try to, you ever hear the story about, um, Betsy Hamilton said the story about Don Elko and she saw him on stage once he was the third speared carrier to the left. And she, that he was so memorable in that role with no minds. And I remember her saying this, like, you can make anything out of, you know, if you working with the director. So I always try to make something out of the roles I was in. I remember Jenkins saying to me, after we did bombing Gilliad as an intro, and he had Joseph Cora and I flipped roles halfway through the play where Joe played the lead, the first half of the play. And then I played a double lead, like seconds before he got shot. And like, it was so hard to get into that role and to like, try and feel like I'm that character in the moment that I know I'm about to die. And like, that was really hard. And John apologized for that, but that was, that's the only regret. Speaker 2: (57:46)Did he do that? Because it made sense for the player. He was just trying to get people more staged. Speaker 6: (57:52)Yeah. I think that's the, you know, the sort of unspoken rule of the intros. It's like, you want to give everyone some kind of equal some sort of equal, but I was happy playing the role of the coffee shop owner in the first half in the first act. I would've stuck with that. That was fine with me. Speaker 2: (58:12)What about, did you have, uh, or do you have, now I know you are very interested in movement, but like other tendencies then, or now writing, um, I guess directing, you've done some of w are there other areas of the craft that maybe you wish you could have explored more than? Speaker 6: (58:34)Yeah. So voiceover is something that I, I was interested in since I was an adolescent, since I was young. I really love voiceover. Do you remember when I was in college and we had a voiceover instructor, she was like a friend of Susan leaves who came in for a quarter. She said to me, uh, the age of radio is over. You don't really have a place in this business. She was, she was all about the kind of a raspy, vocal fry, female voice that was popular at the time. So she was really promoting those female voices and was basically like, you need to take a back seat. I'm sorry. The age of radio is over. You're not going to have a place in this business. And I took seriously because I was 19. I was like, Oh. And so since then, I, I have experienced the, uh, repercussions of that, even though I'm looking intellectually aware of it, like trying to get into the voiceover business, I'm hobbled. Like I can't push through the difficult first months of trying to establish something. I can't get through that point. So I, I just kinda gave up on that. I liked the sound of my voice. Speaker 2: (59:52)Oh, I'm so surprised. You're not a voiceover actor that I, in fact, back in my mind, I think I assumed that you did voiceover, but wait, what are you, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. You're saying that you, when you try to establish yourself, you find yourself like undoing it or, or, or you feel that the hurdles are insurmountable. Speaker 6: (01:00:13)Well, I, I w whenever I've tried to get started, I feel like there's, and this is the thing with being a white guy, I think is like, there's way too many of me. I don't think that I have that much uniqueness to offer, to upset the business and become something that I, you know, to add something to the community. So at this point, I feel like now at first I was hobbled with the age of radio was over. And now I feel like I'm feeling a little like, well, I guess I don't really have anything new to bring to voiceover. I would just be really impersonating the guys that came before me. Um, so maybe that's believing some of what was told to me when I was an adolescent a little bit, and also kind of reckoning with, you know, just where we're at as a society right now. And as a culture right now, maybe it's a mix of both, but it's really nice. Speaker 2: (01:01:07)So the age of radio has never been over. Right. Cause then, right. Speaker 2: (01:01:16)It's also not true. So, so what I, what, what sticks out to me is that when we're 19 and these people in power say things like that, the repercussions hear me. Now, if you are an instructor of some kind, they ripple out until you are 45 years old, and you are still dealing with them. Now, I'm not saying they did it on purpose. Maybe some people did, but it's harmful. And so I think, I think it's. And I also think that I want you to meet my voiceover agent. And I also think that, that I, um, I just didn't shocked at what we say. And Gina and I talk about this because Gina has kids. I don't, but just that what we say matters to people and you have kids, and what we say matters to people, um, more than we could ever know, it drives me insane when I hear stuff like that. Um, because I've heard it too stuff, and it's not fair. And we were 19 and you have a fantastic voice and you're kind, that's the other thing it's like, you can hear the kindness in your voice, and I'm so serious, and we need that in this industry. So that's all I'll say on that. Get off my box. But man, Speaker 6: (01:02:28)Thanks for saying that. But I want to say something too, about what you were saying with the messages. There was something that I'll say his name. You can edit it out later, said to me in his office one day and I'm surprised, I bet there's a lot of stories. Speaker 2: (01:02:42)Oh yes. We believe his name on the regular. Speaker 6: (01:02:47)So he had me in his office. Uh, I think it was like sophomore year, like second year and he's, and I was sitting in his office and he said, all right, get up. Mike stood up. And he said, turn around. I turned around in a circle and said, no, turn your back to me. I turned my back to him. He was still sitting down and I was standing and he slapped me on the, both cheeks. He said, this is getting too big, sit down. And I sat down. He said, if you're going to get anywhere, you have to lose some weight. Your is getting too big. Speaker 2: (01:03:24)Oh my God, I'm sorry. That happened to you. Speaker 6: (01:03:32)Well, you know what I feel like at that time, and I've talked about this story a lot, but after listening to your show, I've been thinking about it more. Like, I feel like what he was trying to do. I think what he was trying to do, if I assume the best is he thought that that was the form that I needed to fit in order to be successful. You know? Like, and I, and when I was looking at my headshot and said, that's your, uh, can I come move your casting couch for your headshot? I was like, yeah, awesome. This is cool. I'm going to be the sexy young guy. Right. Um, but that wasn't me. And I didn't know that that wasn't me. I wanted it to be me. Speaker 2: (01:04:13)Sure. Of course you did. You want it to be liked and loved and picked and worked and feel Speaker 6: (01:04:17)And sexy and cool and stuff, you know? So I want it to fit those molds. I want it to lose the weight. I want it to be the casting couch guy. I wanted to be, you know, I wore a leather jacket with the collar, pop to my hair, you know, the sideburns and the Urim and stuff. And I did the whole thing. Um, and I went to LA and I went to meetings, but my personality isn't that. So I didn't follow through on the expectation. Speaker 2: (01:04:45)You didn't know who you were because people were helping you to say, this is who you should be. And it really, probably somewhere inside you were like, no, no, I can't just like, if you're not. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. How can you show up at 21 or 22 at meetings with adult people that are trying to, that want you to sell certain things? And in your core, something about your being is like, this isn't, this isn't me. It's going to not work out. Speaker 6: (01:05:12)I spent money on a really slim fitting, nice suit, you know, good sunglasses walked into the meeting trying to feel like, yeah, I'm this, I'm the sexy guy. That's gonna solve all your Hollywood PR problems. But I couldn't hold a conversation because I didn't have the confidence, you know, despite the cost, Speaker 2: (01:05:30)I wouldn't even know why, how could you have confidence when people are telling you you're too fat, you need to do this and you're, or, or you're you're yes. You're headed in the right. Speaker 6: (01:05:39)Right. Speaker 2: (01:05:40)You guys, I just feel so sick to my stomach about that story. And I, I, part of what makes it, so, um, sickening is that, I mean, he touched it, but he also, he made you turn around something about that is like, it just really is hitting me right in the center of my chest, because how dare you? How dare you. Speaker 6: (01:06:03)It was so vulnerable. You know, it was a really vulnerable moment. And I feel like we, we put ourselves in vulnerability with our, with our teachers in that, in that Mel you right in the conservatory program, um, whatever, the modality of art that you're studying, you're in a really vulnerable place for experiments. And you're putting stuff out there that represents you. Speaker 2: (01:06:26)That's right. And, and, and so like for anybody in college, probably the experiences, uh, that child has had pretty much the same set of people, their whole life, reflecting back to them who they are. And then you don't know this, but part of why you go to college is to have other people reflect back to you who you are, so that you can figure it out and decide which one, and which is why we all do that. So many. And in high school too, like trying on personalities and trying to see what's going to fit. And then in theater, it's like, you're trying to do that. You are receiving messages from people about how you're perceived, but then you're also being asked to be open, to be anything new. It's just so tricky and dangerous. And, and, and there are so many billions of ways that, that self-image can be, uh, splintered, right? Some of them might be good, but a lot of them are really not Speaker 6: (01:07:29)Well in the highest value that we bring into the classroom is our vulnerability, right. Being, being as open and open, open, open, open, open, and neutral as possible, right. Ego lifts is try to be as equal as possible. So we're so receptive Speaker 2: (01:07:45)Were so receptive and were so fragile. You know, people are fragile. We're also fragile. It's like, I just, I I'm just always shocked at how quickly someone will, someone can, um, crumple a child. [inaudible] the episode that era's today is the one with Erica who mentioned you she's she's actually, when, when we interviewed her, she said, have you talked to Paul? Yeah. And also she's the reason that week. I think I called your email. You sorry, later that day. Um, but Oh my God, I just lost my train of thought something Erica said maybe about, about the theater school. She said a lot. Oh no. We were talking in today's episode in the first part about, Oh, victim impact statements. That's what it was. We were talking about victim impact statement. Ooh, we should w maybe we can't do it in real life, but we could write a play where students gave their victim impact statements to their teachers. Speaker 2: (01:08:47)Right? Like you had the opportunity kind of like in defending your life, you have this long, it's not really like fighting in life, but you have, you get this kind of council of teachers. And then everybody who was their student, if a toxic teachers can come in and say, this is what you did, probably you didn't mean to probably no teacher would say what I really wanted Paul to do was, uh, never consider voiceover, even though that's what he totally wanted to do. She wouldn't have said, she thought she was doing, you're such a favor. Speaker 6: (01:09:18)Right, right. You'll waste your time. Speaker 2: (01:09:21)That's what it is. They think they're saving you from the humiliation that then they're reflecting on the moment that they're second. They think they're saving you. And really they're, they're slowly killing you. I mean, like it's real in a way it's real. Speaker 6: (01:09:36)Hmm. This feels like a non-sequitur, but I want to follow it. So, Gina, I know that you directed under milkweed. Uh, I also directed under milk. Um, we, we rehearsed at the theater building in the courtyard and so really had a strong connection to production of that play in school so much so that I really wanted to recreate that experience for another audience. Was that your experience too? Yes. Yeah. So he can't all be the devil because that play was so beautiful that it touched me. I mean, it moved me for the rest of my life, you know, and that came from him and his heart. So there was something about like, I really trusted him because he was so earnest and passionate about the capital T truth. So I fed, I thought that I totally bought into that. And I believe that he believed it. Speaker 2: (01:10:35)Dude, if we could interview him, he would probably have stories that would, you know, make your hair stand on, end about what people said to him or what people did to him. I mean, that's what we find. Right. And then his teacher would say, they literally beat me on the side of the head when I did something wrong. It's just this thing. It's just like what the, the traumatization is almost like an absolute value. Hopefully, hopefully not forever. Um, just the onl

Welcome to Bridges' One Noise Radio, I'm Bridges bringing you the things that are happening, the things that have happened and much more of the things.Today's episode contains Uber drivers being considered as workers in the UK, Rick Astly's re-mastered Never Gonna Give You Up video on Read it on Reddit; a guy calling 911 to brag about running from the cops on Planet Florida; how I came to know Jack Johnson's Brushfire Fairytales album on The Racks and Stacks, and ending the show on a good note with some Good Vibes. I'll be talking about those things, and all the things in between. I'm C. John Bridges and this is One Noise Radio. Racks and Stacks Intro:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY  One Noise Intro:MUSIC LINKKicked Up Pumps by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...​)Artist: http://audionautix.com/​ One Noise Closing:Artist: Morning SideSong Track: Fashion PoliticGenre: Alternative Rock Free MP3 Download: https://www.jamendo.com/en/track/6308...​ This song is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...​ Reddit:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/de6xhLYLp5w​ Planet Florida Intro:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/CCPXfflu0qo​     

Welcome to Bridges' One Noise Radio, I'm Bridges talking about the things that are happening, the things that have happened, and much more of the things. Today on Read on Reddit I give you some of my favorite Reddit posts including Dave Grohl's prediction of where Nirvana would be had Kurt Cobain not killed himself, a Florida pilot who had an interesting flight path in Planet Florida, and how I came to know Jimmy Eat World's 'Bleed American' album on the Racks and Stacks. Of course I end the show with some good advice with my Good Vibes. I'm C. John Bridges and this is One Noise Radio.Racks and Stacks Intro:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY  One Noise Intro:MUSIC LINKKicked Up Pumps by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...​)Artist: http://audionautix.com/​ One Noise Closing:Artist: Morning SideSong Track: Fashion PoliticGenre: Alternative Rock Free MP3 Download: https://www.jamendo.com/en/track/6308...​ This song is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...​ Reddit:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/de6xhLYLp5w​ Planet Florida Intro:Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/CCPXfflu0qo​  

We talk to John Bridges!

In 2001 and 2002, I decided that my life was due for a re-boot, so I did just that. I moved up to Belleview, just south of Ocala and got a job at the local Blockbuster Video where I made a close friend who I had a lot in common with. This relationship brought on conflict with another guy who had developed an unhealthy jealousy as he was dealing with his own problems. Throughout all of this, I was introduced to a new album that made me appreciate a style of rock-n-roll that I actively resisted. The album is No Pads, No Helmets, Just Balls, the band is Simple Plan; I'm C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks.    Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

Hey Folks come listen to our review of The Werewolf Player's Guide. We cover everything from new tips for creating characters through Tribes and how to interact with a Sept and more!CreditsAuthors: Emrey Barnes, Bill Bridges, John Bridges, Steve Brown, Phil Brucato, Cathi Brucato, Sam Chupp, Jim Comer, Brad Freeman, Andrew Greenberg, Dan Greenberg, Mark Rein. Hagen, William Spencer-Hale, Robert Hatch, Sam Inabinet, David Key, J. Morrison, George Neal, Teeuwynn, Travis WilliamsAdditionalMaterial by: Roman J. Andron, James S. Bracher, Jamie Brustlin, Jeff Campbell, Brian Cotter, Jeff Dahl, Paul Defenbaugh, James French, Harry Heckel, Marten Hent, Eric Leach, Edward MacGregor, Terrence Patrick Joseph Micheau, Mark Phaedrus, Shannon Studdard, Timothy TonerDeveloped by: Bill BridgesEdited by: Heather BrydenArt: John Bridges, Sam Inabinet, Jeff Rebner, SCAR Studios, Dan Smith, Richard Thomas, Joshua Gabriel Timbrook, Brion Wackwitz, Lawrence Allen WilliamsLayout and Typesetting: Sam ChuppArt Direction: Richard ThomasBack Cover: Chris McDonough, Joshua Gabriel TimbrookPurchase it here: Werewolf Players Guide(https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/3751/Werewolf-Players-Guide?affiliate_id=268487)Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/25yearsofvampirethemasquerade/posts)

In 1999, after a conversation with my high school's guidance counselor, I realized my grades had slipped beyond recovery. I gave up and dropped out, then moved to Orlando where I was introduced to the world of hip-hop by way of becoming a session musician at a recording studio. Those nights working with hip-hop artists consisted of crazy parties. After attending a performance from one of our artists, then witnessing a shooting in the parking lot, I was introduced to an album that put the events of 1999 into a different perspective for me; a more real perspective, a hip-hop perspective. The album is And Then There Was X, the artist is DMX, I'm C. John Bridges, and this is From the Racks and Stacks.    Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In 1998 and 99, my life became somewhat chaotic. After the death of my grandmother and a wild-fire that consumed most of the area where I lived, I sank into a deep depression. The only way out for me was learning the blues. I was inspired to do so by a bluesman whose music was unlike anything I had ever heard. The artist was Stevie Ray Vaughan, the album was The Sky Is Crying, I'm C. John Bridges and this is From The Racks And Stacks!    Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In 1996, I took drastic action to make a good grade writing essays in my 7th grade English class. A classmate went through a transformation that seemed to shock everyone that knew her. After I realized what artist caused this transformation, he dropped an album that had dark themes, but was catchy and Weston to become one of the most successful albums of the 90's. The artist is Marilyn Manson, the album is Antichrist Superstar, I'm C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks.   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In the summer of 2000, I was living in Orlando and getting to know the music scene there, which was much bigger than what I had known before. After meeting a popular radio personality, I attended a show to see a band that I had grown to love. The opening act of that show had raised eyebrows. After their debut album was released, they went on to become one of the biggest acts in rock history. The band is Linkin Park, the album is Hybrid Theory, I’m C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks.Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In this trip down memory lane, David and Renee talk to Seattle Chef Tom Douglas about his remarkable menu ideas. Radio host and author Lynne Rossetto Kasper dishes up some outrageous Thanksgiving disasters and how to avoid them. Josh Wesson talks wines for Thanksgiving dinner. And etiquette expert John Bridges suggests ways to deal with pesky guests.

In the Spring of 2000, I went a little wild and got into street drag racing. An encounter with a sore loser led me to the only techno album I had ever bought. The album was Vegas, the band was Crystal Method. I'm C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks! Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In early 1997, I fought back against my step-dad who had his last drunken rage with me. I was sent to Miami to spend the summer with my aunt and cousins. That summer I met a beautiful girl, went out on a few dates, and was introduced to an album that has always reminded me of that summer. The album is Check Your Head, the band is The Beastie Boys, I'm C. John Bridges and this, is From the Racks and Stacks!Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

In 1995, an incident with a school bully led to my step-dad and I actually connecting on a personal level. Later that summer as I was working my first job part time at a golf course, I discovered an album that inspired to me to start playing music. The band is Bush, the album is Sixteen Stone, I'm C. John Bridges and this is From the Racks and Stacks!   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL] Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL] Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINK The Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...) Artist: http://audionautix.com/

In 1997, my mom's marriage to my step-dad had ended and I began my first year of high school in a new town. I was learning to surf and hone my guitar skills when I came across an album that inspired me to not only be a better musician, but to appreciate life. The album is the self titled major label masterpiece by Sublime. I'm C. John Bridges, and this is From the Racks and Stacks!Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/EHIhYXG0fUY   Music from YouTube Audio Library [Aka YAL]Music provided by RFM: https://youtu.be/HlN1lRhMP40 MUSIC LINKThe Woods by Silent Partner Drifting 2 by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)Artist: http://audionautix.com/ 

This week's episode was recorded a few weeks ago, over two Fridays, with my friends, John Bridges and Jon Bowman! In this episode, we talk about Mystery School Records, Street Clones, the harsh noise scene, and so much more, all backed by more music than ever before! Beers were drank, and spilled, in this episode of firsts... first multi-person zoom interview, first third time guest, and first fully naked guest?! It happens! Also, rare double stinger warning! https://www.facebook.com/mysteryschoolrecords/https://www.facebook.com/streetclonesrocknroll/https://www.facebook.com/WarboysUS/https://www.facebook.com/Rapegoat/https://www.gabbagabbahuh.com/gghtalkshttps://www.facebook.com/GabbaGabbaHuh/Songs for GGH ep 15:Van Huskins - Extinction PartyRapegoat - Man Cannot Be SavedTomcat's Torpedo Band - Black NightKing Sized Killers - No Friend of MineSFTM - Flat Broke Dip Lip - CopenhagenQueen City Rejects - Acid DropGreedy Mistress - Her Long Way to RedemptionErectile Dementia - I Don't CareSelf Made Monsters - TortoiseCCCR - Call and RespondFuture Hate - PlinkoSpace Coke (feat. Deborah Adedokun & Xothun) - Evil Sex Grimes - Your MumStreet Clones - Shit HotSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/gabbagabbahuh)

Kevin and Josh step away from the show floor at Glass Vegas 2020 to sit down and have some drinks with marble master John Bridges.

Dr. Morgan McLeod welcomes in Drs. Katie Mitchell and John Bridges to talk about acne and skin issues. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Pepsi. Apple. Uber. Endeavor. Just a handful of the companies branding guru Bozoma Saint John has already had her hands on. The daughter of a Ghanaian politician raised between the U.S. and Africa, Saint John embodies a worldliness, a confidence and a curiosity that has made her one of the most sought-after marketers working today. She joins Stretch & Bobbito for a lively discussion about her Ghanaian roots, the tough life lessons she learned from Spike Lee and her newest challenge: helping Papa John's Pizza re-brand after a CEO scandal.

This is a reading from “ How to be a gentleman by John Bridges. Every week I will be going over the shaping of a good character man. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/vibing-jasonb-209/support

Fear not, we have, arguably, one of the finest lineups of Thanksgiving experts to help, soothe, delight, and fortify you. Seattle Chef Tom Douglas serves up remarkable menu ideas. Radio host and author Lynne Rossetto Kasper dishes up some outrageous Thanksgiving disasters and how to avoid them. Bacchus Incarnate Josh Wesson talks wines for Thanksgiving dinner. And etiquette expert John Bridges suggests ways to deal with pesky guests.

Kitchens, kitchen, kitchens. They're are on everyone's mind this episode. David Leite discusses his kitchen renovation, TV celebrity and cookbook author Rachel Khoo chats about cooking in a tiny Paris kitchen, John Bridges--our etiquette maven--is quizzed on all manner of kitchen and dining protocol, and Faith Durand chats about non-baked desserts from her book "Bakeless Sweets."

We're lighting up 3 different sizes of the Oliva Connecticut Petite Corona, and despite what you say, size DOES matter... and we'll prove it today. The cheap flavored giant companies want to now get into the "Premium Market," John Hart from Drew Estate drops in for an expected visit, and Gentleman Chuck Morrison gets gentlemanly with the man who wrote the book on "How to Become a Gentleman," John Bridges.