Podcasts about Gini

Most owner-led agencies know they should be doing more than media relations. One barrier has always been capability: you can’t execute paid media if nobody on your team knows paid media. AI is removing that barrier, and Chip and Gini dig into exactly how. Gini built a PESO model operating system AI that prompts you instead of you prompting it. Many agencies are strong in one or two media types and need scaffolding to think through the rest. The tool can be used to help agencies execute unfamiliar disciplines step by step. Chip frames this as an opportunity to do things that were theoretically possible two years ago but practically out of reach. A paid campaign to amplify a blog post no longer requires hiring a specialist. Beyond drafting, both hosts made a case for AI as a learning tool instead of merely a content machine. Gini tested this directly by vibe-coding a PESO model diagnostic, working through multiple versions with AI troubleshooting each step. The practical upshot is that you can use AI to build separate knowledge-rich agents for each media type, loaded with client messaging and context, and treat them as thought partners for areas where your team lacks depth. It won’t eliminate the need for people or strategic thinking, but capability is no longer a credible excuse for staying stuck at one letter of PESO. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “AI is a great opportunity for all of the things that you wished you could have done two years ago that now become much more feasible for you to do without having to go out and bring in-house new expertise.” Gini Dietrich: “I have built my entire organization using agents. It doesn’t replace anybody. I still need people to do the work, and I still need people to do the strategic thinking, and I still need people to service the client work. It makes us smarter, it makes us faster, it makes us more productive, but it doesn’t replace anyone.” Chip Griffin: “It doesn’t have to do it for you, it can help educate you… You can make it tell you at whatever level of knowledge you need in order to become comfortable with it, and then you actually start to learn it.” Gini Dietrich: “If you don’t have shared or owned and paid expertise internally, you can use those agents to help you build those things.” Related The PESO Model evolves for the AI era (and why your website isn't dead) Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever How to allocate your client's PESO budget View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we’re gonna let AI do our jobs today. I know we don’t ever talk about AI on this show. Gini Dietrich: We don’t. We don’t like it at all. Chip Griffin: But I think AI is gonna let us do so much more here. Awesome. Maybe even, maybe we can even implement the PESO model as part of the show. Gini Dietrich: Beautiful. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: I’ve, I’ve heard that the PESO model is something that’s really important that we should- … we should focus on. So why not let AI help us with it? Gini Dietrich: Oh, I love it. Maybe we could use NotebookLM and have it create its, our voices too. We’ll just be done. We don’t have to do anything. Chip Griffin: That’s a great idea. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s do it. Chip Griffin: So then, you and I could just connect and just do our gossiping and chit-chat. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yes. Chip Griffin: And we’d still get an episode even without having to take the time to record. Gini Dietrich: Yes. I like it. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: I like it. I like that. That would be- That would be fun. Gini Dietrich: We don’t gossip. What do you mean? Chip Griffin: Gossip, talk about world events. Whatever, however you want. I mean- Gini Dietrich: Yes. It’s kind of good that those aren’t recorded. Ah. Chip Griffin: It is. I suspect we would get a lot of listeners, but we’d lose a lot at the same time, so. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: In any event, we are going to talk about AI again because it is top of mind for all of us, and so we all ought to be thinking about it. And we are gonna talk about the PESO model because we just happen to have somebody here who knows a little bit about the PESO model. So let me explain it to you… Oh, no, I didn’t. Oh. I wasn’t talking about me. With the founder of the PESO model as one of the co-hosts. It, we’ve talked about the PESO model before, but I think, you know, one of the things that, that has occurred to me in recent times, and I’m sure it has occurred to you as well, is that AI can help more PR agencies go deeper into the PESO model, particularly in areas where they maybe don’t have as much in-house expertise. And, and one- Yep … of the things we’ve talked about with agencies a lot is that the PESO model touches a lot of different things, and it’s difficult for any small agency to have all of the skillsets needed to fully execute PESO properly. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah. Chip Griffin: AI seems to open the door to more of that. Gini Dietrich: For sure, it does. One of the things that we did late last year is I built a PESO operating system AI. And instead of you prompting it, it prompts you. So it’s built to do exactly that, so that you can say, “Okay, well, we’re really good at media relations, but we don’t have any expertise in shared, owned, or paid,” or, “We’re really great at owned and shared, but we don’t have any expertise in earned and paid.” Whatever it happens to be, right? And so it will h- it will prompt you with questions to help you think through, “Okay, if we’re great at owned and shared, but we don’t have the E and the P, here are the things you need to be thinking about.” And it will help you either figure out how to execute it on your own with step-by-step instructions, or it will give you a creative brief that then you could hand off to a partner. So it, it’s built to do that, but the point is, is that- I mean, would I prefer you use the PESO OS AI that I built? For sure, but really any AI could do that. I think if you,you have to prompt it. It’s not gonna prompt you. But I think any AI based on information that’s out there in the, on the web that we’ve created around PESO, it will be able to take all of that and say, “Here are some things you should be thinking about.” And I think it’s really good at helping you think through things that you’re just not an expert at. And it’s really good at helping you think through, gosh, we should be using paid to amplify our content, for instance, but I don’t have any idea. Do– should I do it on LinkedIn? Should I do it on Instagram? Should I do it on TikTok? Should I do it on Google? Like, I have no idea. So AI is a really good thought partner from that perspective. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that’s the, that’s the key point is that it allows you to, certainly you can look at it in, at a 30,000-foot level, you know, with your specialized OS that allows you to really think the whole big picture through. Yep. But you can also use it in a very granular way to say “Hey, look, I know I want to amplify this content. Let’s, let’s look at the various ways that we can do it, and help educate me about how we do that most effectively.” Yep. And, you know, to me, AI is a great opportunity for all of the things that you wished you could have done two years ago Gini Dietrich: Yeah Chip Griffin: That now become much more feasible for you to do without having to go out and bring in-house new expertise, or hiring someone if it’s, particularly when it’s focused, right? If it, it really is just, “I need a paid campaign to amplify this blog post.” That is a whole lot easier to do with AI, frankly, than it is to go hire somebody in-house- Yeah … and a lot cheaper. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. And it will give you the step-by, literal step-by-step instructions if you wanna do it yourself. Right. And if you don’t wanna do it yourself, you say, “Help me create a project brief or a creative brief that will, that I can hand off to a partner,” and it does that for you too. So one of the things that we do is, you know, I have a paid media expert in, on our marketing team, but then we hire out, depending on what we need, we’ll hire out sort of the day-to-day minutia piece of it. ‘Cause, you know, especially in paid media, you have to be in there every day and testing and tweaking and all that kind of stuff. And AI’s great at saying, “Eh, pay attention to this,” but not great at actually pushing the buttons. And so it has helped our paid media team even just outsource some of that stuff too. So it’s, I think it’s really great from that perspective. You know, it’s still, you, like, I think some, especially PR professionals, are using it for, like, list development and media pitching and things like that, which is fine, but it’s still not… it’s still a good first draft. You still have to add your personalization. You still have to do those kinds of things. One of the things that we were kind of struggling with, actually not struggling with, we were arguing over internally, was our outbound sales campaigns and what those said. And I felt like they were way too long. Our chief revenue officer felt like the calls to action weren’t right, and so we put it into AI, and we were like, “This is where we’re struggling. We’re not agreeing on these five points.” And it pumped out some stuff that we were like Okay, that’s– I– All right, let’s try that. So, you know, I don’t know yet if it’s gonna work ’cause we haven’t launched it, but it helped us think about things a little bit differently than we had just the three of us shooting the shit around a Zoom conversation. Chip Griffin: Well, and to your point, it’s a great jumping-off point. It’s not necessarily a final draft of everything, but, I mean, let’s say you, you know, you’re– you don’t consider your team very adept at creating social posts on their own, but you want to use PESO to amplify content. You can take that piece of content and say, you know, “Give me three to five drafts that I can look at.” Yep, yep. And you can pick the one that, that resonates most with you, and then, you know, hone that and use that as your post. So again, it just, it allows you to do things that either would’ve taken much longer a number of years ago or just you wouldn’t have been able to do without hiring someone new in-house or that sort of thing. And so having those opportunities means that you can adopt a lot more of the PESO model as an agency, which certainly benefits your clients, but it benefits your business as well. Because as we’ve talked about, pure PR agencies, despite the renaissance of the importance of earned media as a result of LLMs and all of that, you know, you still, I still think it is very difficult to have a media relations only agency in 2026. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: It’s not impossible. There are certain niches where it works and certain setups that work, but for the vast majority of old time traditional PR agencies, they need to be getting into more of the PESO model, even if it’s not all four letters. Even if you get into two of the letters- Gini Dietrich: Yeah Chip Griffin: that’s gonna help you a lot. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, for sure. And it does– definitely helps you, like I think I’ve mentioned before that I have several different agents, AI agents, and one is my co-CEO, and my co-CEO, like, it will argue with me, and it will tell me, like last week it said, “That’s a stupid idea.” And I was like, “Ah, well, screw you, too.” But it helps you think through those things. So you say, “Okay, what if I want to build an agency that is focused around the PESO model, and I’m gonna go through the certification so that I can create an agency that’s focused on it. What am I missing? What do I need to hire for? What can I use you, my AI, for? What can I…” Like it helps you think through all of those things. “Help me build a plan to be able to do this over the next two years. I want to create some intellectual property based on what you know about me and how I’ve used you in the past. What is some intellectual property that we might be able to create as an agency?” It can help you with all sorts of things. Chip Griffin: It can, and it, it also, you can calibrate it to your own knowledge level or your team’s knowledge level, so you can have it just help you with some, some drafts. You can have it just teach you how to do things. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think that’s an often overlooked use of AI. Yes. Absolutely. It doesn’t have to do it for you, it can help educate you. Yep. And part of that is just communicating with it and say, “Treat me like I’m an absolute idiot.” Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: “And give me out- actual step-by-step instructions. Assume I don’t even know how to click the mouse. Like, tell me to put downward pressure on the button in the middle of the…” Like, you can make it tell you at whatever level of knowledge you need in order to become comfortable with it, and then you actually start to learn it. I mean, I think we, we all think of AI as something that, that’s, you know, can just replace us, but it can also help us learn so that we develop our own skills, and maybe we don’t need the AI for what we need it for today, but instead we can use AI to take us to the next level because we’ve already built in that knowledge from having worked with AI previously. It should be viewed as a growth opportunity, not as just, you know, the lazy way out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I, absolutely. I love that because, you know, I kept hearing about this vibe coding thing, and everybody was talking about vibe coding. I was like, “Okay, I wanna try vibe coding. What do I want to vibe code?” And so I actually asked my AI boyfriend, “If you were me, what are some things you would vibe code just to test it out?” And it said, “You should do a PESO model diagnostic so that people understand where they sit on the PESO model maturity ladder.” And I was like, “Okay.” So I went into lovable.ai, and I built a PESO model visibility assessment is what I built first, and it was a really good first draft. And then I went through it and I had some friends take it, and I had my team go through it and got all of that feedback, and then I built the PESO model diagnostic from there. So it probably took– I probably had five or six versions before I was ready to take it public. Then I was like, Okay, now I have to figure out how somebody gets their results, and then how do I attach it to ActiveCampaign, which is our software, our email software, so that they can have their results emailed to them? It’s a little bit harder than it sounds. Chip Griffin: I, I think that’s, that’s part of the thing with vibe coding. People- Gini Dietrich: It’s absolute, yeah, a little bit harder. Yeah. But it did exactly what you said. Yeah. I was like, “I am lost.” Yeah. And I actually said, “I think this is above my pay grade.” And, and it said, “Okay, let me help you.” And so it broke it down step by step by step. We finally got it figured out, but then it wasn’t, it was doing everything that we needed it to do, but it wasn’t emailing. So I had all the tokens in the email, so like, “Hi, first name, here’s your…” Like, I had all those tokens, but it wasn’t triggering that. And so it helped me figure out, it like, it helped me troubleshoot and figure out why. And I, there’s no way on earth, not in a zillion years, I could have done that on my own two years ago. Absolutely not. Chip Griffin: Yep. And it really, it really is amazing how it can help you with some of those things. Now, it can also send you down some rabbit holes that are- Gini Dietrich: Yes, it did that too … Chip Griffin: not the right ones, and, and then- Gini Dietrich: Correct. I was like, “No, that’s not right.” Chip Griffin: And then it says, “Oops. Yeah, sorry. That’s, I, I didn’t mean to do… You’re right- Yep, you’re right. Mm-hmm … that I should’ve gone a different direction.” Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yes, it does do that. Chip Griffin: And so, you know, that is always one of the challenges of vibe coding, is it opens a lot of doors, but it can lead to a lot of frustration, and you have to be ready to handle that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And particularly for someone like you, who has not been steeped in development in the past. Gini Dietrich: At all. Chip Griffin: You know, it probably takes more effort to get past that frustration than- Yeah … say, for someone like me, where I can spot early on that it’s going in the wrong direction, ’cause I’ve written code, and I’d be like- “Mm, I don’t- That does seem wrong, too … I don’t know if we really wanna do that.” Yeah. Yeah. And, but, but you can also ask it a lot of questions, and part- you know, I use Claude Code personally, and so, you know, it will often give options, or you can ask for options and say, you know, “Let’s go through the pros and cons of these different paths that we can do before we build out a whole product around something that we’re like, ‘Eh, that’s not gonna work.'” Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: And you can think them through. You can think through what, what are the maintenance costs? What are the actual hard costs of it? Yep. And there are times where the tools will suggest something to you that, that costs something, and they’ll, it, it’s sort of like, you know, Waze. Waze sometimes likes to avoid tolls. I’m like, “Don’t, I don’t wanna avoid a toll. I wanna get there faster.” Gini Dietrich: I wanna get there faster, right. Chip Griffin: Like, to, to me, I don’t- Gini Dietrich: Yeah … Chip Griffin: don’t put me on all these weird side streets so I don’t pay a toll. Same thing with these tools. They often default to the free option, and sometimes you’re like, “Well, I’m willing to pay $5 a month to get this email sent to me correctly, and, and not have to, like- Right … go down to the command line and configure- Yeah … all this stuff. Yes. And then my computer’s always gotta be on, and all that kind of stuff. So, but the, the point is that that a lot of these tools open up the doors for the things that you can do, which then, again, expands that capability so that you are moving beyond just being one of the four letters and moving into at least two, if not all four, of PESO. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say also that if you, if you want to do this, it’s not a small undertaking, but if you want to do this, you can, there are lots of ways that you can do this, but I’ll make it super, super simple. Using Claude, you can create projects. And the projects can be focused on, okay, we’re gonna have one for earned, we’re gonna have one for paid, we’re gonna have one for shared, we’re gonna have one for owned. And in those specific projects, you build files, knowledge files that teach it what you wanna do from an earned media perspective. These are our clients. This is what we talk about. These are their messaging. Like all– Here’s our media list. All that kind of stuff goes into the knowledge files. You give it some instructions, and then it becomes your earned media thought partner, or same with your other media types. So if you don’t have, you know, shared or owned and paid expertise internally, you can use those agents to help you build those things. I will say, though, that, you know, people keep talking about how AI is going to replace us, and I have gone way down the rabbit hole from an agent perspective, and I have built my entire organization using agents. It doesn’t replace anybody. I still need people to do the work, and I still need people to do the strategic thinking, and I still need people to service the client work. Like, it makes us smarter, it makes us faster, it makes us more productive, but it doesn’t replace anyone. And so I say that because I want you– I don’t want you to be afraid of, oh my gosh, if we use this and we use this, I use it to help me think through the other media types that we aren’t doing, that it’s going to replace us, or the clients aren’t gonna wanna work with us. That’s not the case at all, at least not in my experience. So I would say test it out, play with it, get really good at it, because it will help you achieve some of the goals that you want to achieve a lot faster than you can do it on your own. Chip Griffin: Oh, absolutely. And, and it doesn’t even require you to know even the general direction. You can simply go in there and say, “Hey, look, you know, I’ve got this blog post. It’s not getting much traction, but I feel like it should. Help me to understand why it’s not.” And, and- Yep … so it’ll help, it’ll analyze the structure and content and maybe make some suggestions there. But then in the conversation you can say, “Well, you know, it doesn’t seem to be generating much in the way of inbound traffic from social. Help me think that through. How can I do that better or differently?” And it, it allows you to do a lot more, and I think particularly for those agencies who are doing any form of video, AI can be a really good tool for helping you to expand the use of that video into other things, right? I mean, the obvious that we’ve had for years is the automatic transcription, right? So you start from a point of you’ve got a transcription and so you’ve got, you know, more content that’s out there that’s more easily indexable by more tools. You know, some of the LLMs, you know, quote-unquote “watch video,” some only can use transcripts, so you wanna give both ideally. Yep. But you can go well beyond that. I mean, a lot of people are just kind of slapping stuff up on YouTube without any kind of a good description if they’re doing video. Use AI. Let it, let it give you a quick first draft and you can do that correctly. Let it start drafting social posts so you can get it out there. Make sure that you’re turning every video into a blog post. There are so many things that you can do from that one nugget. It’s one of the reasons why I love video so much, is because it can spiral out into these other formats so easily. But all of that then helps to fuel your efforts on the PESO model, and all of it can be done in an organization without all of the things that you would have needed five or 10 years ago. You don’t need a dedicated video producer or a high-end external video, you can use something like we’re using right here today with Riverside, where you can just- free plug there. We’re not, we’re not sponsored by them, but- … you know, we, we use it, and it, it does a nice job of cutting this up. If you’re watching this on YouTube, it switches camera angles. I don’t do anything except click a little button that says, “Do this,” and I get to choose how aggressive the, the camera switching is. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: That’s fantastic, right? But it will also then clip things that you can use for social media. And if I’m a traditional PR agency, I don’t know anything about any of that kind of stuff, but it’s all valuable to furthering the PESO model for my clients. So why wouldn’t I be taking advantage of AI to help me go down that path? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say if you are a traditional PR agency, even things like, “This pitch isn’t landing. Tell me what you think.” Sure. “How would I… Like, I’m trying to reach this, this, and this reporter with this pitch. Analyze it for me.” Like, that kind of stuff you should be doing every single day. Chip Griffin: Right, ’cause the PESO model isn’t just about ticking boxes. It’s about doing all those things well, right? Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: You, you can have a nice little report card that says, “Check. I did the P. I did the E. I did the S. I did the O.” But are you doing all of those well? And, and- Right … maybe even what your agency is, is built around, whichever letter is the core of your personal expertise, there are certainly ways that you can use AI to improve even on that- Absolutely … even before you go down the other  avenues. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the things that we’ve been, you know, when we, we evolved the model for AI into an operating system, and that is because all of the media types build on one another, right? So it will help you figure that out. So I can say PESO model’s now an operating system, and I’m sure you’re like, “I don’t know what the freak that means.” And it, it will help you figure out what that means and how you can apply that to your business. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, operating system may be one of the most overused product descriptions these days, but- Gini Dietrich: It works in an enterprise. Chip Griffin: everybody’s got an operating… you know, you read anything AI-related, everybody’s got an operating system. Gini Dietrich: Works in an, in an enterprise really well. Chip Griffin: It, it … Oh, I mean, I, I’m not arguing that. It’s just, it’s kind of, it, it’s kind of like 30 years ago where everybody used the word paradigm. Gini Dietrich: Oh, fair. Chip Griffin: Like, okay. Gini Dietrich: Really? PESO model paradigm. Chip Griffin: I gotta, gotta hear about- There, I like that. That’s nice … OS again. Ugh. Ugh. Of course- Ooh … I’m old enough to remember actual OSs back in the day. You know. MS-DOS, for example. Way, way long time ago. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: On that note, before I go down memory lane and really bore everybody, we’ll wrap this episode up. But use the PESO model, and use the AI to help you get there more effectively- Yes … faster. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: Grow your business, help your clients. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Make lots of money. Chip Griffin: Make lots of money. On that note, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

What would you do if a stranger on your morning commute told you she couldn't have children — and you offered to help? In this episode, I sit down with Gini Bhogal (@ginibhogal), a celebrity bridal hair and makeup artist and a household name in the Asian bridal scene. But behind the brushes and bridal chairs is a story she kept quiet for nearly 30 years... until now. Gini shares how a chance encounter on the London Underground led her to donate her eggs to a complete stranger, for free, against her husband's wishes, without telling her family, and with no idea how it would all unfold. 26 years later, the child she helped bring into the world reached out and found her. If you've ever felt pulled to do something that made no logical sense but felt completely right, this one is for you.

This week we sat down with Letizia Gini from Azienda Agricola Gini, one of Italy's most historic family wineries. Founded in 1570, the Gini family has been making wine for 15 generations from the volcanic hills of Soave to the sun-drenched valleys of Valpolicella; their wines capture the rich diversity of the Veneto. The wines are distributed by Skurnik here in the U.S., we were joined by Omar Caruso and Joan Stagnaro, two of the reps for the wines in America. The Gini family has roots in the Soave Classico region dating from the seventh century and owns 25 hectares of vineyards situated on the very best hillside position of the appellation. Extremely low yields, low-interference viticulture, and devoted attention to expressing the unique character of each cru results in wines that are not only among the greatest Soaves but also among the great white wines of Italy. Both tradition and the modern are reflected at Gini. The hand-harvested Soave Classicos is 100% Garganega. Both the Soave Classico and the single vineyard “La Frosca” are vinified in stainless steel. The family's prized “Salvarenza” bottling, from a tiny plot of centenarian vines within the La Froscà vineyard, is matured in barrel. The Re Nobilis is a rare representative of a botrytized style Recioto, northern Italy's version of a German TBA, while the Recioto Col Foscarin is a delightful dessert wine, also great with cheese. www.skurnik.com/producer/gini/ www.ginivini.com/en @letiziaginiii

Losing a client is never fun, even when you saw the writing on the wall. The only question is how you choose to handle it. In this episode, Chip and Gini cover the practical and emotional side of client departures, from the moment you get the news to the lessons you take away. Gini points out that there are plenty of reasons a client could terminate the relationship, which may have nothing to do with your work. Strategy changes, budget cuts, and leadership turnover all end client relationships that were otherwise going fine. Chip’s advice is to not react immediately. Ask for a couple of days to review the agreement and put together a transition plan. That space lets you get the emotion out before you say something you’ll regret. Once you have your bearings, focus on making the exit clean. Read your actual contract, confirm the notice terms, and hand over everything the client needs: documents, passwords, contacts, work in progress. Chip is blunt about agencies that fight clients on the way out — it accomplishes nothing and just guarantees a bad final impression. Don't burn any bridges and you just might see those clients come back or send you referrals. Finally, be honest with your team about what the loss means for the business. If there are financial implications, say so before people start drawing their own conclusions. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You never want to react immediately to the news in such a way that you perhaps compound a difficult situation, or at the very least you don’t make it as easy as it should be.” Gini Dietrich: “I always say that you’re remembered by how you left an organization versus the work that you did. And so you never want to burn a bridge, even if you’re caught by surprise, even if you wanted to fire the client and you’re happy about it.” Chip Griffin: “If the client is coming to you and canceling because they’re having financial issues, you’re probably not going to get the money anyway. So rather than fighting for something that probably isn’t there, why don’t you try to make it as painless as possible and get whatever you can so that you’ve built some goodwill potentially for the future?” Gini Dietrich: “Be honest and open with your team because I think they will come with solutions that you may not have thought of or that you may have assumed they’re not willing to do.” Related Why do agencies lose clients? Agency client cancellation policies Agency owners need to put themselves in other people's shoes How to protect yourself from an unexpected client breakup View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, as a famous American once said, “You’re fired.” Gini Dietrich: Oh, no. Chip Griffin: Okay. Maybe … pack your knives and go. Um- Oh … what would you like to go with instead? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s, maybe we’ll do that one. I like that. Chip Griffin: Pack your knives and go. Top Chef is a great show. Gini Dietrich: I love Top Chef. Chip Griffin: Not as good as it was in the early days, but- Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree. Yeah … Chip Griffin: it’s still, it’s still kind of fun occasionally, and I, I still- Yeah … do watch part of each season. Yeah. From Restaurant Wars on. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I did love, I did love a little Top Chef. I agree. Chip Griffin:  Jen and one of my kids watch it up until Restaurant Wars, then they let me know, and I come in and I watch Restaurant Wars through the end. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. They’re like, “Okay, your turn.” Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, that’s where it starts to get interesting, so. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Anyway, no, we are gonna talk about getting fired. Not fired as an owner. We’re, we’re not at that point yet. We don’t have boards that are gonna fire us, most of us at least. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: But clients do fire us from time to time, and we’ve had conversations in the past about firing clients ourselves and, and those sorts of things. But, what happens, what do you do when a client calls you up or, worse, sends you an email and says, “We’re done. We’re out”? Yeah, you know, it’s- What are things you should be thinking about at that point? Gini Dietrich: I think so. The, I think there’s a couple of things here. One is that the word, using the word “fired” makes it sound so bad. Sometimes it’s because there’s been a strategy change, there’s been a budget reallocation, maybe leadership has changed, maybe there’s a new VP of marketing or a CCO. Like, there are lots of reasons, right, that have nothing to do with you or the agency or your work. And so saying that you got fired is, I, I just don’t like that term. Now that I have that off my chest, I’ll step down off my soapbox and say, like, there, I think we should always be prepared for the eventual loss of a client. And because we don’t know, right? We don’t- Uh-huh … we can kind of guess, you know, if there are big changes at a leadership level, or if there’s been a reorg, or if the company has sold or things like that, we can guess. Like, we’re probably not gonna be working with that client much longer. We could also sort of read the tea leaves from the perspective of they’ve been ghosting us, and we haven’t been able to get any work done. They’ve been declining meetings or not showing up for meetings. Like, there are lots of reasons that you can kind of read those tea leaves. And so I always think it’s, it’s really good to be prepared. It should never come as a surprise when you lose a client, and you should be prepared. You should have, you should know what you’re going to say, you should know how, what a transition looks like, and you should have a full pipeline that will replace that client fairly quickly, even in a chaotic world that we’re living in right now, so that you’re not caught off guard. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I think the, you know, the first step when you get this news is, probably 95% of the time you’re gonna be annoyed, upset, unhappy. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Some negative emotion. A small percentage of the time you’ll be like, “Oh, thank God, I just- … I, I really wanted to get rid of them anyway.” Yeah. You know? So. Gini Dietrich: Blessing in disguise, yep. Right. Chip Griffin: So, so sometimes that’ll be your reaction, but most of the time it’s not gonna be a happy reaction that you have. And so I think the, the first thing is to just, whether it’s on a call with them or you get it by email or, you know, carrier pigeon or whatever, take a deep breath. Yes. Right? Yes … you, you don’t ever want to react immediately to the news in such a way that you perhaps compound a difficult situation, or at the very least you don’t make it as easy as it could or should be. And I think your advice to, to be prepared for this, certainly if you see the signs on the wall you need to be even more prepared. But sometimes these things are, you know, in retrospect they won’t be a surprise, but you might feel surprised in the moment because you didn’t pick up on all of the little signals along the way and, and that then becomes a learning experience. And I think that’s… to me, that’s one of the most valuable things when you lose a client for whatever reason, is taking advantage of that to learn for the future. Learn the signs to look for. Yep. Learn what you could do differently potentially to maintain the relationship, retain the client. Learn to target better ideal clients, whatever it is. But I, I always like to turn these things into a learning experience as much as possible. But you also have the logistics to actually handle the end of the client relationship, so why don’t we talk about that for a little bit. What, you know, it, it’s not just about the learnings that you can take for the future, it’s how do you handle that immediately? How do you transition the client out? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think, you know, I always say that you’re always remembered by how you left an organization versus the work that you did. And so you never wanna burn a bridge, even if you’re caught by surprise, even if you wanted to fire the client and you’re happy about it, you should never burn a bridge because you just never know, right? So understanding what contract they signed and what the terms of agreement are, you know? We had a situation where I was working with a girlfriend and, she lost a big, big, big, big client. It came out of the blue, that she was not expecting it because she’d had a conversation a week prior that everything was fine. And so she works with several contractors, and we had to say like, “We’re really sorry. We know that we thought you were gonna be doing work in May and June,” and, like, we go, “The client’s gone.” So, and she had one person come back to her and say, like, “We have a 30-day agreement,” blah, blah, blah. They didn’t have a 30-day agreement, but in her mind they had a 30-day agreement. Sure. In the paperwork, there was no 30-day agreement. So I use that as an example because in your mind you may have a 30 or 60 or 90-day termination clause that may not have made it to the final piece. Maybe you have it for some clients and not others. Like, you have to really do your research to, and go back and read the executed agreement so you know what those terms are. And then spend that time ensuring that there’s a seamless transition, that they’re getting all the documents that you’ve created, that they understand where things are, that they understand where the passwords are, where you, what you have access to, all of those kinds of things. ‘Cause I will tell you, there have been situations where we’ve lost a client and we’re still in their Google Analytics. We’re still the admin on their Facebook page. Like, stuff like that, I’m like, “You guys, we’re not gonna do anything bad, but you really need to take us off.” Chip Griffin: Right, right. I mean, I’ve had former clients where, where I have had admin level access to a lot of their stuff- Yes … for as much as a decade afterwards. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: Even when I flag it for them and say, “Hey, guys- Gini Dietrich: Yes … Chip Griffin: you might wanna take me out.” Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: It, it’s kind of amazing at times that- It, it is, yeah … the things that, that people don’t pay attention to. But, I mean, I think that that’s great advice to, you know, to understand what your agreements say, and to really just focus on how do you make it as smooth a transition as possible. No matter how frustrated you are, you need to try to think through how do we make this as pain-free for everybody? Because you can make it difficult for them, but that’s really just gonna make it difficult for you. Yep. And to your point, that’s how you’re gonna be remembered, as the person who made it difficult. And so, you know, if you get it on a, if you get the information on a call, you know, certainly say, “Hey, look, you know, let’s, let’s put together a wind-down plan or transition plan,” or however you wanna frame it. Part of that will depend on how sudden it is. You know, are, are they saying, “We’re not gonna renew in, you know, three months,” or is it, you know, “We’re giving you as short a notice as possible”? That will affect the timelines- Sure … and those sorts of things. Yep, yep. But, but it doesn’t affect the fact that you want to try to make sure that you are making it smooth and clean and painless. And don’t hesitate to say, “Hey, let me, let me think about this and come back to you with a plan-” Right “for how we do it.” Right, right. You don’t have to have every answer in the moment, and, and giving yourself that time to step back and absorb it may allow you to come forward with a more productive plan all the way around. Because your goal has to be to make sure that you’re fulfilling your contract, while at the same time trying to get them to fulfill their end of it. Right. And, and the more that you fight, the less likely you are to even get what you are due under the agreement. And so, you know, you wanna try to make it as, as friendly as possible in, in how you wind it down to make sure that you do get those payments that you are still owed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, if it comes as a surprise, I think you’re absolutely right that saying things like, “You know, gosh, I’m really sorry to hear this. I’ve really enjoyed working with you. Let me take a couple of days to craft a transition plan.” That gives you time. They, from their perspective, they’re like, “Okay, they’re being thoughtful about this and, you know, strategic about it, and they’re gonna be helpful.” And that gives you time to settle yourself and, you know, be, get all the emotion out of it and actually create something productive. Chip Griffin: Right. And it can be a, particularly if it’s done over the phone, it gives you that opportunity to sit down and take a look at the contract and see- Yeah … what it says. Yeah. Because then you can, you can go back to them and say, “Okay, you know, in order to make sure we do this the right way, you know, we’ll need the notification in writing so that, you know, we can memorialize this properly to protect both of us.” And I think you always wanna use that kind of language when you’re dealing with contract stuff. This is for both of our benefit, even if really maybe it’s more for you- Yeah … than for them, but you wanna stress the, the for both of us. And that’s also your opportunity to then look at other clauses in there that, that maybe are to your benefit, like the notification period, that maybe you didn’t bring up on the call. You know, you can say, “Hey, you know, we need to make sure we get this in writing, and of course, as, as you know from this agreement, you have 30, 60, 90, whatever the notification period is. So, you know, we’ll work to that, as we wind this down.” Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think, you know, there are, we, and we’ve talked about this before too, like our contracts say 90 days, and there are some clients where I’m like, “I don’t need to hold you to that. We’re good.” Like some- Right. Right? And then there are situations- Chip Griffin: How about, how about 90 minutes? How about 90 minutes? Can we, can we just be- 90 seconds? 90 seconds? We can be done now. We’re just, I’m out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I’m good. Yep. Good. Yep. See ya. Yep. But then there are also situations, you know, we had the Great Recession, we had COVID. There are some situations where you’re just like, you just be, you can be understanding and be like, “Gosh, I’m really, yeah, I’m really sorry to hear business sucks, and we have a 90-day termination clause, but let me, let me waive that for you, and let’s do this instead.” And you’re always seen in good light when you do those things. Yep. And in fact, every time I have done that, either that business has come back or they’ve referred business to us. So you don’t wanna do that in every situation, and you don’t wanna hurt your cash flow, you know, if it’s, if it’s gonna be detrimental. But there are situations where you can be a little more understanding and use, use that kind of language so that they understand that you’re doing them a favor, ’cause you’re, you really are doing them a favor in some cases. Chip Griffin: Well, more to the point, if the client is coming to you and canceling because they’re having financial issues, whether it’s because of a global pandemic or there’s just something specific to their business, you’re probably not gonna get the money anyway. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Chip Griffin: Right? So, so rather than fighting for something that probably isn’t there anyway, why don’t you try to make it as painless as possible and get whatever you can so that you’ve built some goodwill potentially for the future? Because you also have to keep in mind that most of the time we’re not working with the actual owner of the business. Most of the time, even in a mid-sized business, we’re working with someone at least a step or two removed from that level. And so why are we making their life more difficult when it’s not, you know, it may not even be their ability to make a decision, particularly if it’s financially related. So, you know, think about that, and put yourself in their shoes if you were in a position. If you’ve got contractors, think about, you know, you want to react to them the same way you want your contractors to react to you. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yep. Chip Griffin: And, you don’t want your contractors coming at you, right? Yeah, yep. And you wanna try to work something out amicably. You should be doing the same thing upstream from you in the relationship as well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I just, I think your earlier point about taking some time, and just, you know, it’s, it usually comes as a shock. Even if, even if we’ve read the tea leaves, it still is surprising. It still is stressful. It still has some risk involved. And so just take a beat and use the language of, you know, “Give me a couple of days to put together a transition plan.” And I think that helps you process it all, get the emotion out, and then start to salvage the relationship as best you can so that there is referral business later, or maybe they do come back later, or whatever happens to be. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, time is your friend on these things in order to, you know, to formulate a better response. And most of the time when we react too quickly, it’s when we end up regretting it somewhere down the road. So- you know, buy yourself the time to avoid that future regret. Gini Dietrich: I will, I will tell you that 100 years ago when I started my agency, the first client I lost, I cried. And the client felt really, really bad, and I was mortified, but I cried. Chip Griffin: Oh, you, you cried when the client told you? Oh, wow. Gini Dietrich: I did. Uh-huh. Okay. So I will say that, you know, you learn and you grow, and you understand that sometimes it’s just not personal. I took it very personally because it was the first time it had ever happened. Like, I’d, I’d never been fired from a job. I’d never like … it was the first time it had ever happened. So I, I did. I’ve matured since then, but there are, you know, there are things that you’re just like, it’s an emotional time. Chip Griffin: Sure. I mean, nobody would ever enjoy that kind of- Gini Dietrich: Yeah Chip Griffin: experience. Mm-mm. Yeah. I, I mean, certainly any time I’ve ever had a contract end, I, I haven’t been like, “Yay!” Gini Dietrich: Right? Chip Griffin: I mean- Gini Dietrich: Woo-hoo! … Chip Griffin: it, it sucks. Yeah. I can’t say that I’ve ever cried when I’ve gotten that news, but may have hung up the phone and had a few choice words for the atmosphere around me or something like that. But, you know, it is what it is. So okay, so, you know, we’re, we’re thinking through the actual communications with the client who has fired us. Sorry, terminated the agreement- Let us go … or shared the decision. Mm, right. Whatever. Yeah. Whatever language you wanna use. I’m, I’m still a fan of firing because that’s kinda what it is. So now we need to think about two things, I think immediately. One is how do we communicate it to our team, whether that’s contractors or employees, and as a corollary to that, how are we going to act as a client for the remainder of the relationship that we have? So not the technical details of working out the trip, but the, you know, how do we continue to service them in that moment? And those two are related because as soon as you tell your team, you know, “Hey, this, this agreement is ending,” they’re probably gonna start mentally checking out of that relationship just as you have. Gini Dietrich: Of course. Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think we need to really fight that urge. Yep. Because, because it, uh, as you say, it is how you exit that people remember you, and a lot of that comes down to if you had, particularly if you have a longer notice period, right? If you’ve got a, you know, say a 60 or 90-day notice period, you can’t just, you know, put pens down unless they, the client is like, “No, we just, we’re, we’re done. We’ll just keep paying you, but we’re not.” Sometimes that does happen- It sure does, yep … where they treat it as sort of severance for the agency. It’s not super common, but it does happen. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: But it needs to be on them to reduce your workload, not on you to say, “Eh, we don’t care anymore.” Gini Dietrich: Right. And I think, you know, if you’re doing things like media relations, it’s ensuring that those, the stories that are in progress or the things that are in progress, the pitches that are in progress, those get transferred over. If you, like we said, if you hold the keys to anything, you have to make sure that those are transferred over. All of the things that you have in progress, understand, you know, to your point, that it may be like they just want you to stop work immediately and hand everything over, or they may want you to continue, finish, they want you to finish things that are in progress. But understand what that is so that you can ensure that. And one of the things I always say to my team, and I repeat that, repeat what I said at the beginning, which is, you know, you’re always remembered how, by how you left. It is our job to transition smoothly and make sure that nothing falls through the cracks. Yep. And I understand that you’re checked out. I’m checked out. I’m surprised by this. It’s not, you know, this, this is gonna be a little bit of a painful process, but we have to be professional, and we have to ensure that we’re transitioning cleanly. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and please do not fight them. It’s, I mean, ’cause that’s even worse than-you know, we, we just kinda give up. But I’ve seen many agencies where they basically fight clients on the way out the door, and the client will say, “Can I have this? Can I have the latest draft of this even though it’s not finished?” And they’ll be like, “Well, no, because, you know, we’re not gonna be working with you anymore, and so, you know, you don’t get the draft. You only get the final version.” No. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely not. No. No. Yeah. Chip Griffin: If you’re doing media relations and they wanna know who you’ve reached out to about a press release- Yes … just tell them. Gini Dietrich: Just tell them, yes. Chip Griffin: Do not fight them on this. I agree. I, I, for the life of me, I do not understand- Gini Dietrich: Yep. I totally agree with that Chip Griffin: the, the way, particularly the PR agencies seem to be particularly guilty of this in my view, where they just will not share with the client anything that they’re doing in terms of detail around outreach or those kinds of things because, well, then they can do it on their own. Okay, fine. Let them, right? They’ll figure out it’s not that easy. It’s not just having the spreadsheet of what contacts you’ve made. Yeah. I’m not saying you need to give them your whole database with all of your personal notations about, you know, stuff that you do across other clients. But if it’s pitch work that you’ve done for this client, give them the information. Come on, man. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially if it’s in progress and there’s, like- Yes … something’s happening, like, there’s no reason on Earth not to give them that information. Chip Griffin: No, no reason. And, look, if all you’re good for is, is a spreadsheet, it probably wasn’t worth hiring you anyway. Yeah. So, you know, you, you’ve got to be realistic about these kinds of things. But as you’re communicating with your team, you want them to understand that, that they need to have this same mentality of being helpful and making sure they finish strong. I think the other thing is to, to make sure that, that you’re communicating clearly with your contractors and employees about what this means. Hopefully, what it means is you’ve got a strong pipeline, and so, you know, it’s a bump in the road, but it’s not a big deal. But if it is a big deal, don’t try to hide that fact, right? I mean, you don’t have to like terrify them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: But, but if it does, if you’ve got a contractor and it’s probably gonna mean that you’re gonna have to cut them altogether or partially, if you think it’s, you know, a giant client and it might lead to layoffs, be honest with people sooner rather than later. Because the more you put this off, the harder it is to deal with. Yeah. And again, it’s a balancing act, ’cause you can’t, you can’t just be, you know, like panicking them, which is again another argument for taking a deep breath, absorbing the information, figuring out your plan. You don’t have to hang up the phone and then immediately call up all your team and say, “Oh my God, we just lost Acme Pharmaceuticals,” right? I mean, that doesn’t help anybody. Take the time, think it through, think through the questions you’re likely to get so that you can communicate confidently, but also honestly. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I would say If you have access to an HR team or person, if you have access to a legal team or an attorney, reach out to them as well because as you’re crafting this plan because they’re gonna have a different… They’re gonna look at it through a different lens. They’re gonna have a different perspective, especially if you have a team, getting HR involved in that to say, “Okay, here’s scenarios A, B, and C” to help you plan so that when an employee asks, you have a response, and it’s not just shot from the hip a little bit. Right. And I, I know I’ve told this story before, but during the Great Recession, you know, we had 95% of our clients left between Christmas and New Year’s of 2008, 2009, and I had to go back to the office and lay everybody off. And the biggest mistake I made, I made two big mistakes in that. One is that everybody was talking about the economy and the Great Recession and all this stuff for a year, but I didn’t pay any attention. I didn’t… Like, I wouldn’t, I wasn’t mature enough. I wasn’t experienced enough, and so I just kind of put my blinders on and was like, “Everything’s great. We’re growing.” You know? Yeah. And so I didn’t plan. And the second thing I did, mistake I made is I didn’t let the team know ahead of time, and I didn’t think I could. And I’ll never forget this as long as I live. One of my employees came up to me after I let everybody know, and she said, “I wish you had told us because I would’ve been happy to go part-time.” And I was like, ohhh. Chip Griffin: Right. Gini Dietrich: You know? Like, yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Gini Dietrich: So be honest and open because I think they will come with solutions too that you may not have thought of or that you may have assumed they’re not willing to do when they are. Chip Griffin: Right. Absolutely. So then I think that takes us to that, that final piece, as we’re wrapping up here, and, and that is to take lessons away from it. Because there’s something to be learned from the end of every relationship, whether it’s because it was a project and it just, it naturally ran its course, or because you were on a retainer and they decided to end it or what have you. Yep. There are always lessons to be learned, and I think it’s, it’s really helpful to sit down with your team, not just at the end, but at key milestone points as well and say, “Okay, you know, what, what have we learned from this? What could we have done differently? What should we do differently, not just with this client but with others in the future?” And make sure that you treat as much of what you’re doing as a learning experience as possible because that’s how you really grow- both individually and as a business. If you just keep doing the same old, same old, you might do okay, but you’re not gonna do as well as you could if you’re actually studying what you’ve done in the past. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, that’s the example I just gave is a great example of that. Yeah. Now I know. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Gini Dietrich: That’s a great lesson. Chip Griffin: It’s why, again, I watch all of these episodes back so that I can sit there and say, “Okay, you know, what would I do differently next time?” Maybe I’ll lower the microphone a little bit, raise my voice a little bit, talk a little bit less so that we can actually hear from Gini, and I don’t just monopolize all the time. You don’t monopolize the time. And have Jen tell me what percentage of time I’ve spoken versus… I do talk a lot. I understand that. But it’s, it’s something I consciously work on every podcast that I’m on because I know that I have a tendency to talk a lot. Gini Dietrich: Okay. I don’t think you monopolize the time here. No. Chip Griffin: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome. Chip Griffin: So, I guess we’re not gonna monopolize any more of your time as a listener, so we will wrap up today’s episode, but hopefully we’ve given you a few things to think about the next time that you get that dreaded call or email from a client who is not firing you, but ending the relationship in whatever fashion we wanna call it, so. Gini Dietrich: It’s not always being fired. Chip Griffin: Okay. Gini Dietrich: Fired, fired means that you did a bad job. Chip Griffin: Okay. On that note, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

The SAGA Agency AI Survey results are in, and small agency owners are feeling great about AI. Maybe too great. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into the numbers and find the gap between how owners think they’re using AI and the reality of what's happening inside their businesses. The headline figures look impressive: 89% of respondents report regular or widespread AI use, 74% use it daily, and 88% say they’ve seen productivity gains. But Chip isn’t buying it. He questions whether the sample skews toward early adopters, or more likely, whether agency owners simply don’t have a clear enough picture of what “good” AI use looks like elsewhere. When 53% say they’re ahead of their peers but only 13% say they’re behind, the math doesn’t work. As Gini puts it, they’re probably grading themselves on usage habits, not operational depth. Next, Chip and Gini look at what agencies are actually doing with AI. Most activity falls squarely into what Chip calls “generative AI 101” — drafting emails, writing social posts, generating blog content. The more interesting stuff is largely absent. AI-assisted design work barely registers. Only 74% are even using AI to revise or edit content, a number both hosts find inexplicable given how easy and useful that is. Gini’s own example of running an article through an AP style agent before sending it to a notoriously precise editor at PR Daily illustrates exactly the kind of practical, low-friction habit that should be universal by now. Another data point they discuss is the disconnect between productivity gains and revenue. Agencies report getting faster, but their top-line numbers are flat or down. Gini’s read is that AI efficiency is getting absorbed into existing scope rather than converted into new value. Agencies are over-servicing clients at the same fees, filling freed time with more of the same work instead of building something new. On the pricing side, almost no one reported clients pushing for discounts tied to AI use. Instead of a reduction in cost, the larger enterprise clients are asking about data governance, usage policies, and procurement compliance. Chip advises unless your agency has the infrastructure to manage those requirements consistently, that’s a market best left to someone else. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “There’s nothing in this data that suggests that there is widespread innovative use of it, widespread use of it for internal operations or for business development or any of those things.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is being absorbed into the existing scope. There’s silent commoditization so that clients are getting more for the same fees.” Chip Griffin: “Now is the time to experiment and figure out what works and what doesn’t when the cost of failure is much lower.” Gini Dietrich: “I don’t believe that AI is going to replace us. I believe that people who know how to use AI effectively are what’s going to replace you.” Resources Survey shows most owner-led agencies think they're ahead on AI. Most aren't. Related How agency owners can use AI as an always-on thought partner How AI impacts PR agencies and solos (featuring Karen Swim and Michelle Kane) Focus on AI value, not cost View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, as, as we sit here on a Monday and record this, I am truly optimistic. I have published my planned photo schedule for the evenings this week, and despite the fact that- … it says it’s gonna rain Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, I still have games on that calendar, and I am optimistic that we will actually get those games in even though they don’t generally play baseball and softball in the rain. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know if that’s optimistic or masochistic. Chip Griffin: Oh. No, masochistic would be they were lacrosse games and I know they’re gonna be played in the rain, and I’m still looking forward to getting  wet while I take the photos. Gini Dietrich: And you’re still looking forward to it. Chip Griffin: No, I suspect if the forecast is what it is, I think it is highly unlikely that any of those games will be played. Gini Dietrich: Well, good, then you can be optimistic that you don’t have to go and shoot photos. Chip Griffin: There you go. Yeah. I can be optimistic to have some, some evenings to catch up on, on real work instead of- Gini Dietrich: That’s right. That’s right … Chip Griffin: photography. But- That’s right … optimism is kind of the theme of the day here though, because we have recently completed the SAGA Agency AI Survey, and it, it turns out that agency owners, to nobody’s surprise, are eternally optimistic, and they are astoundingly optimistic about AI, and how they’re using it and what it means for their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yes, indeed. So I looked at the results, and that is my takeaway as well, is that they’re extremely optimistic. 89% have regular or widespread use, 74% use it every day, 89% expect AI use to grow over the next 12 months. And so, yes, it is very optimistic. 88% report productivity gains, and 79% report quality gains. Chip Griffin: It is amazing how much work AI is doing for agencies today. It is, it is frankly unbelievable, and I mean that literally. Gini Dietrich: Literally, yes. Chip Griffin: I do not believe it. Yeah. I have either stumbled across a sample of the earliest adopters who are most interested in AI and have really taken it the furthest, or more likely, people don’t really understand what’s out there and so therefore think they are further ahead than they are. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think it’s… Well, I mean, I will, I will say that the head of, the ahead of peers piece of it, so the data said that 53% believe that they’re somewhat or further ahead than their peers, and only 13% think they’re behind. That’s mathematically impossible. And so I think my take on it, and I’d love your take as well, is that they’re grading themselves on their usage and not on the operational depth of it. So for instance, they’re using ChatGPT every day as a habit, but they’re not operationalizing AI as a business model, and I think that 53% are confusing the two. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, I think it’s probably a multitude of factors. I think part of it is that agency owners visualize a very low bar for their peers when it comes to AI. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: And I, I think part of that is that people aren’t hearing a lot of examples of how agency, other agencies are using- Gini Dietrich: Sure … Chip Griffin: AI. They’re not as active as some of us may be in going out and seeing how other industries, similar industries are using AI and really testing the limits and understanding what’s possible. So I think part of it is that they don’t have an appropriate baseline to know whether they are indeed ahead or not because they’ve set the bar so low in their own minds. And I think that part of it is, you know, this point that if they’re just using it at all, they think that puts them ahead. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that that’s what’s going on. I think that they’re, that they’re saying, “Well yeah, I use it every day.” And that’s, and that’s what makes them think that they’re ahead. Chip Griffin: Right. But I, I think as we dig in deeper and we look at how they’re actually using it, it’s pretty obvious that, that most of the usage by these owners is what I would call generative AI 101. Draft me an email. Yep. Help me create a blog post or a social post. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: It is– There’s nothing in this data that suggests that there is widespread innovative use of it, widespread use of it for internal operations or for business development or any of those things. It really appears to be sort of the basics, sort of the things that people were talking about a year or two ago in terms of generative AI, and that seems to be where most of the activity and most of the stated value is. But even in those areas, there’s a good swath of agencies that aren’t even doing that. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I think the, if I recall correctly, the number was only like 74% are using AI to help revise or edit content. It’s mind-boggling to me that that’s not almost 100%. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because it’s the easiest way to improve the quality of your content. Gini Dietrich: Yes, it is. Yes. Chip Griffin: So I just, I can’t even imagine not just saying, “Hey, take a quick look at this.” I mean, even if it’s just to proof it. Just take a look through- Right … make, make sure I haven’t- Right … missed anything obvious here, and you know. Right. Because anytime I run it through, it tends to find something. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So why aren’t you at least doing that? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, it’s funny you say that because we just submitted an article to PR Daily, and I know that Allison Carter is a huge, huge, huge, huge stickler for AP style. So I have an AP style agent, and I ran it through there, and it, I think it got five or six different things that I had missed. I was like, “Thank heaven.” Like, ’cause she, she will send it back. She’ll be like, “Nope.” I mean, huge stickler. So, and like, yes, to your point, like you should be using it for that, 100%. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, that’s just– to, to me that’s a very basic use, but there are so many great things that you can do with it. I mean, the, the tiny percentage of people that are using it for anything design related- Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah … was- It was almost 0%. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was shocking to me- It was shocking, yep … Chip Griffin: that such a small percentage seem to be using it for that, at all. I mean, we didn’t say you’re using it for every image or every video or those kinds of… But if you’re not even experimenting with it- Gini Dietrich: Yeah … Chip Griffin: you’re missing a real opportunity because there’s a lot that you can do with it. Now, I don’t– you know, one of the things that, that I don’t know is, you know, what percentage of these people may not do this because they have the ethical concern, right? And I’ve, I’ve been at a few events recently and watched a few talks online where, you know, there, there’s, there is an, what I consider an unnatural resistance to AI because of use of electricity or- Gini Dietrich: Yeah Chip Griffin: or because of- Data centers and, yeah … concerns over copyright and that kind of stuff. And so it causes people to swear off the platforms and tools altogether, rather than saying, “Let’s try to find solutions to all of these things.” And l- and let’s face it, there are solutions being sought for all of it, whether it’s the electricity angle, whether it’s the copyright angle. There’s a lot of work being done in that area, and for individuals to just say, “No, I’m just, I’m not even gonna do this,” is extraordinarily shortsighted in my view. Gini Dietrich: Oh, 100%, yeah. I, I mean, I think we’ve both talked about this ad nauseam, that you should… I don’t believe that AI is going to replace us. I believe that people who know how to use AI effectively are, is what’s gonna replace you. So if you’re putting your head in the sand, you are, you will be replaced for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. I, I think the other place that was interesting, and you flagged this in, in your pre-show notes, is that they’re reporting largely productivity gains, and yet revenue seems to be flat or declining. Doesn’t really match up. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Again, doesn’t work. AI’s making everyone faster at work, but it’s not growing the business. That is not what we’re trying to do. So what it tells us, right, is that AI is being absorbed into the existing scope There’s silent commoditization so that clients are getting more for the same less, for, for the same fees, so we’re, we’re over-servicing. We’re filling our freed hours with admin, more client servicing or more meetings, and more billable work on undifferentiated services rather than building anything scalable. So that’s what I think is happening, is all of the work, all of the AI that… All the work that AI is doing is being absorbed into existing services, into existing fees, and we’re over-servicing rather than building new product lines or new service lines. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and there are so many opportunities for agencies to truly be innovative and to find these new things that it seems to me that, that any agency owner should be thinking about that and not so much just, you know, “How can we incrementally improve productivity? How can we make sure that we’re claiming we’re ahead of the rest of the pack?” How can you actually make a difference for your business for the long term? Because there is, there is huge runway to be had here, and now is the time to be experimenting when costs are much more reasonable than they are likely to be in the not-too-distant future. I can’t put a particular timeline on it- Yep but it is, is blatantly obvious that the cost of all of these tools is going to go up. Gini Dietrich: Yep … Chip Griffin: as it has with everything else. I mean, I remember the early days of the land grab of Google Ads, and I built an entire business on the back of really cheap Google ads in the early days. And those same ads that I got for pennies back twenty-five now are twenty dollars or more per click for the exact same search terms. And so the, these costs are going to increase. Now is the time to experiment and figure out what works and what doesn’t when the cost of failure is much lower. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I think you’re right. Like, the cost of failure is lower. The risk to failure is lower. Like, it’s… And it’s actually fun. You know, I did an, a webinar for IABC last week, and I showed them the PESO Model diagnostic that we just launched, and people were like, “How did you do this?” And I’m like, “I vibe coded it.” Like, I did it. Right. I was like, “Here’s what I want. Here’s what I want it to do,” and it took two or three iterations for me to get it exactly right, and there will be a version two because now that I’m seeing people take it, I’m like, “Oh, okay, we should change that question or move this around.” Like, right? But I launched a version one out there just to see, and we’re getting data from it. I get all of the data, which is fantastic. I can see where people sit in the PESO Model maturity ladder. You don’t have to have a copyright like I have with the PESO Model. You can absolutely do… Like, we just vibe coded an ROI calculator for our lead nurturing program for, you know, prospects. Here’s an ROI calculator. Here’s the four things that we hear prospects say they have challenges with. Here’s how much we think it… Like, and you can move the numbers around, and you can toggle things. We vibe coded that. Right. We didn’t have to hire a developer for it. We did it internally, and it was super fun to work on as a team. So there’s so many things that you can do. Chip Griffin: That really there’s no shortage, and there are plenty of people out there who are sharing different ideas- Yes … and so the inspiration that you can take- Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes … Chip Griffin: from others is immense. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: But I, but I do worry that, you know, that this survey sort of reinforces what you and I have talked about which is that, that there’s not enough awareness and incentive apparently amongst agency owners to be pursuing these paths, and it does seem to be much more of a complacent attitude towards the use of AI in their businesses. I will say, it, I mean, at least it is… I was encouraged by the fact that agencies do not seem to be seeing clients calling up and saying, “Hey, we wanna cut your fee.” So that’s- Yep. Yeah, that’s good. Yep … that’s, that’s been a widespread fear- Yep … but it was- Yep … the, the data was quite clear that that is not something that is happening at least at the moment. We obviously don’t know whether clients are just deciding to do things on their own internally, and so, you know, maybe agencies are losing renewals or pitches to internal use of AI. Didn’t ask that question in particular. Maybe for a follow-up on somewhere down the road, that would be a good follow-up question. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But honestly, I was a little surprised that, that there didn’t seem to be any direct pricing pressure, at least from AI from clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I will, I mean, focus group of one, I will agree with that. One of the things that we are seeing is not pricing pressure, but we work with big companies, and going through procurement, which is always fun, the questions that we’re getting are, “How are you using AI? What environments do you use? How are you protecting our data? You know, how will you use this specific data?” So they, they ask those really specific questions, and we have to outline exactly what we’re going to do, and we can’t stray from that. So if something comes along six months from now that will improve it or make it better, we have to go back and revise sort of the AI policy that we’ve created with them with procurement. But that’s what we’re seeing so that it’s less about you should charge us less and more about we wanna know exactly what you’re doing with our information so that we can protect it, and we can firewall it and do all of the things that we need to do to make sure that it stays safe. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and the largest enterprise clients are always more worried about that stuff than anybody else. Of course. And so if- Of course … you know, as, as we’ve talked about before, if that’s a market you’re gonna play in, then you need to understand the impact not just on AI but other things. You need to price accordingly for that headache. And more importantly to your point about, you know, making sure that you don’t make a change six months from now that, that it violates the agreement, that, you know, it’s, it’s important that you have the infrastructure in place to manage those kinds of accounts. Which is, you know, these are all just more reasons why I would encourage most smaller agencies to steer clear of these because while they, they sound like great opportunities- … they come with a whole lot of extra headaches- Oh, yes … that you’re probably not- Gini Dietrich: Yes … Chip Griffin: thinking about. And if you’ve never had to experience it directly yourself, you have a, a real good chance of stepping in something somewhere along the way because you, you didn’t set up and you didn’t make sure that everything you do gets vetted by somebody who is familiar with the contract terms. Yeah. Which in a small agency is probably you, the owner, and do you- Yeah … really wanna be- Yep … filtering all of that kind of stuff? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Go ahead. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I was just gonna say, there’s also the, which we started to talk about, but 99, 98% are using AI in client work, 13% put it in contracts, 15% charge for it, 61% have no plans to charge, and you mentioned that 88% haven’t had a client ask for a discount. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I guess this is an area where I had less concern, honestly, because, I think that I, I’m not sure I would agree that agencies should be charging for AI explicitly. I think it should be creating new value that you can charge for. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: But I, you know, one of the reasons why I put that question in there was because I was actually a little concerned that agencies might be explicitly trying to charge- Gini Dietrich: Interesting Chip Griffin: for some of these AI tools, and I, and I think that you shouldn’t because to me that’s like, you know, charging specifically for a freelancer or something like that. You, you need to be in a position where you’re focused on what are you producing in terms of deliverables, results, et cetera, for the client, and not the mechanics of how you get there. Because if you get into the, the space where you’re charging for the tools or for the use of AI, it takes away some of your flexibility in the future- Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm … Chip Griffin: to either earn a greater profit or shift how you’re just doing things operationally or any of those kinds of things. So I’m actually not a fan of calling it out specifically, but it should create additional value for you- Yeah that you can charge for that. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I, I don’t- my guess is that people looked at it as a more direct are you charging for AI itself, and- Yeah … and so I was actually happy that there wasn’t a lot of that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I would agree with that. You know, I think if you think about using AI to create new service lines, to create new opportunities- And really, I’m, I’m sure that every single person listening to this has a list of things they’ve always wanted to do. Our ROI calculator’s a great example of that. The PESO model diagnostic is another one. Like, I have probably four pages in my notebook of things that I would love to try at some point. This makes it accessible. You can do it yourself. You don’t have to wait until you can hire a developer. You don’t have to wait if you wanna build an app. You don’t have to wait until you can afford to hire an app developer. You can actually do this on your own. Will it be perfect? Will it be, you know, as great as, as if you hired a developer? No. But taking it out there as a beta test or a version one, absolutely you can do that, and test it out and see if it works, see if your idea has legs and has merit. And then use that to generate some income that then eventually you would hire a professional to help you repackage it and make it beautiful. Chip Griffin: Yeah, because I mean, you know, a lot of people are vibe coding apps and that kind of thing, and, and it is, it’s great that it gets you there, and it’s great that it, it’s causing you to expand your horizons. I think people do need to keep in mind that maintaining these applications over time- Yeah … requires a little bit more effort than- Yeah … than I think some people realize. Yeah … I’ve seen plenty of people vibe code these apps and be like, “Oh, cool. We’re all done.” Well, yeah, but if you’re gonna have a lot of users on it over time, there are gonna be hiccups. People are gonna do things that, that you don’t imagine. So if it’s something simple- Gini Dietrich: And I saw on Reddit yesterday that somebody had vibe coded an app and, and took it to, like, 40 people to beta test it, and it worked so well that it was costing him a significant amount of money- Yeah … to keep it going and he was like, “I don’t know what to do.” So there are those pieces of it, too, but I think just experimenting with some of your ideas, AI can help you do that for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and if you can get to the proof of concept stage, that at least opens the door- Yeah … for you to, to begin to think through a rational business model for it. But you know, you, if you don’t even experiment, then you’re never gonna have that opportunity. And that brings us to the last point that I wanted to raise from the survey, which is this, the disconnect between how owners perceive their own capabilities with AI and their team’s capabilities- Mm-hmm … with AI. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: And owners, their optimism, extends very much to themselves, and they see them as at the – themselves as at the leading edge of AI, with their teams lagging behind. Not incompetent or inept or anything like that, but it was, I think it was 84% of owners rated themselves as moderately or very knowledgeable about AI, and 61% of their team as the same. So obviously a meaningful difference between those two. I think that, that 84% is extraordinarily generous scoring for the owners in terms of their knowledge of AI because I have conversations with a lot of owners. I would describe very, very few as very knowledgeable- And a small percentage as moderately knowledgeable. I think slightly knowledgeable is where I would put more- Gini Dietrich: Yes, I would agree with that … Chip Griffin: at least if we’re not grading on a curve. If we’re, if we’re grading on, you know, comparison to other similar professionals, I, I just don’t see small agencies as a place where AI today, at least, is thriving. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I totally agree with that, and like you, I mean, I’m not so much in the coaching business anymore, but I have lots and lots and lots of friends who run agencies, and same thing. Like, it’s… I would say it’s slightly knowledgeable. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, but I do agree that probably many of their teams lag behind them because the teams don’t have the time. The owner isn’t making the investment in them in terms of time- Yep … or products or services. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so if you want to see that change in your agency, you know, you do need to drive that. You do need to encourage your team to be using more of these things. I mean, I… One of the numbers that did concern me was, I think half of the owners said that one of their biggest concerns with AI was their team’s over-reliance on AI. I am not seeing any evidence anywhere of over-reliance on AI by any agency employee. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I do. Chip Griffin: Over-reliance? Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Okay. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Do tell. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. My own team. Sometimes I’m like, you guys- Chip Griffin: And I suppose part of this is how you define over-reliance. Gini Dietrich: Let’s not use AI for everything. You gotta actually use your brain. Chip Griffin: Fair enough. Mm-hmm. I guess, yeah, I, I guess to me, in the use cases that I see, with most agencies, it’s not relying on the AI enough and less so over-reliance, but I’m sure there are cases. Gini Dietrich: It is over-reliance in my organization for sure. Chip Griffin: Okay. That is good to know. So in any case, lots of room for agencies to continue to improve on AI, but happy that, that there is this optimism. I, I much prefer this to… I, you know, I when I put this survey out, I wasn’t sure if it was gonna be just all fear and doom and gloom and oh my God, you know- Yeah, sure … what is AI gonna do to my business? Yeah. ‘Cause you hear a lot of that- Mm-hmm … you know, when you’re talking with- Mm-hmm … agency owners. But for the most part, it doesn’t seem to be the case. It, it does… I think there are certainly pockets of over-optimism to a degree that, that needs to be addressed, and there needs to be more experimentation, more innovation, more investment and all of those things if agencies are really going to thrive with AI in the future. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I totally agree. Chip Griffin: So with that, that will wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In part three, Gini explains why she decided to open up about this deeply personal experience and her advice to anyone considering egg donation.Gini and Dr Alex discuss the complex intersection of science and religion, the power of a truly selfless good deed and how you never know what will come from a seemingly unremarkable interaction. Follow @ginibhogalOrder Alex's latest book Am I Normal? - out now!Order Happy Habits - out now! Follow the podcast on Instagram @thestompcastGet the new, pocket guide version of The Mind Manual nowDownload Mettle: the mental fitness app for men Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The PESO Model® has six stages of maturity—and the data says 91% of communications teams are stuck in the bottom half of the ladder. In this episode, Gini walks through the six stages (Foundation, Pilot, Scale, Systemize, Real-Time, and Leadership), what each one looks like inside real brands like Oracle, McDonald's, Dove, Sephora, Netflix, and Liquid Death, and how to find out where your team actually sits. Not optimistically sits. Truly sits.

In part two, Gini reveals how the baby born from her egg reacted to finding out that his ‘auntie' was actually his biological mother. Gini shares her anxieties around the secret coming out, why she was the most afraid to tell her parents and how her relationship has changed with Christopher since it all came out. Follow @ginibhogalOrder Alex's latest book Am I Normal? - out now!Order Happy Habits - out now! Follow the podcast on Instagram @thestompcastGet the new, pocket guide version of The Mind Manual nowDownload Mettle: the mental fitness app for men Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

30 years ago, Gini struck up a conversation with a stranger on the tube, which would change both her and the stranger's lives forever.Despite having no knowledge of the process, Gini agreed to donate her eggs to a complete stranger. She shares her extraordinary story with Dr Alex George, revealing what made her so certain she wanted to perform such a selfless act, what it was like hiding her egg extraction while living with her in-laws and why she believes that a karmic connection may have led to this incredible meeting. It's only this year that Gini has gone public with this extraordinary story, so you don't want to miss it. Follow @ginibhogalOrder Alex's latest book Am I Normal? - out now!Order Happy Habits - out now! Follow the podcast on Instagram @thestompcastGet the new, pocket guide version of The Mind Manual nowDownload Mettle: the mental fitness app for men Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Most agency owners know AI can write a first draft or clean up copy. Far fewer have figured out how to use it as the strategic sounding board they’ve always needed. In this episode, Chip and Gini explore how to use AI tools as a thought partner, not just a content machine. Gini's example is a client who asked her to map what a PESO model maturity ladder would look like for an organization. She described the situation and constraints to Chat GPT, and keep pushing the conversation forward. Six weeks of iterative back-and-forth surfaced ideas she wouldn’t have reached on her own, including finding the gaps when the AI was willing to poke holes in her thinking. Chip points out that for owner-led agencies, that 8pm Friday idea you don’t want to dump on your team now has somewhere to go. The tool doesn’t care what time it is, and it has no stake in whether your idea succeeds or embarrasses you. Both hosts advise to direct the AI to ask you questions rather than just answer them. It takes some coaching to get a tool that genuinely engages rather than validates everything you propose, but once you’re there, you start getting real value. One warning they have is that these tools are not always consistent. The same AI that helped you build a strategy three weeks ago might question it today with equally compelling reasoning. Stay in the driver’s seat, and treat AI-generated recommendations as input, not conclusions. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You now have this always-on thought partner that, when that idea comes to you when you’re watching some Law & Order rerun or whatever, you can ask, ‘Hey, I just had this idea and what do you think of it?'” Gini Dietrich: “AI has really helped me just kind of think through some things that I hadn’t considered, some things I probably wouldn’t have considered, and it also helped poke some holes.” Chip Griffin: “The gap analysis is something that the AI tools do exceptionally well. And part of it is just making yourself vulnerable to it and it’s not judging you, because it doesn’t care.” Gini Dietrich: “The AI knows it can’t get fired. So it doesn’t have the same experience as one of your employees.” View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we need to talk to the robots today. Gini Dietrich: Yes, I love talking to the robots. Let’s do that. Chip Griffin: It’s a robot future, and we just, we need to, we need to figure out, I don’t know, some new ideas or something like that. Maybe we should have a conversation with our friendly neighborhood robot. Gini Dietrich: I like it. Let’s do that. You- Chip Griffin: Actually, that would be a, that would be a good episode at some point to actually- Gini Dietrich: It would be a, yeah … Chip Griffin: to, you know, we could have our first guest. We could have, like, Claude as our first guest on the show. Gini Dietrich: I love it. We should do that. That’s a good idea. Chip Griffin: And, and, and see how that goes. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s. Chip Griffin: I don’t know. Maybe that’s not a good idea. Who knows? Anyway, we are going to talk about AI today, ’cause we haven’t talked about AI at all lately. Nope. And we won’t be talking about it soon when we have the Saga AI survey results to talk about, hopefully on the next episode. But we thought we would talk today about AI in more practical terms because we’ve done a lot of talking about AI in, in sort of high-level strategic ways and how important it is to agencies and how we need to be thinking about it and integrating it and thinking about the costs of it and all of that kind of stuff. But I think it’s helpful for us to have some conversations with and for our listeners about some practical uses of AI that, that we’ve used, that we’ve come across, that we use ourselves- Yep … in order to, to get the maximum value out of this new technology. And, a good place to start is how do you use whatever platform of choice you have, or maybe multiple platforms of choice, to help you as a thought partner to not just, you know, write things and spew stuff out more quickly or something like that, but really to hone ideas, to get advice, to have someone to bounce things off of. And I mean someone in quotes here because, yes, I know it’s not human, okay? So don’t- … don’t send me notes about how, “You know these things aren’t real.” I know that, okay? Gini Dietrich: I do know that. I got it. Yes. I am aware. Chip Griffin: So- Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s such a… First of all, it’s a good topic, and I think it’s something that’s fun for the two of us to talk about because I think we’re both, like, full-on in. For me, when I realized it could be a thought partner for me, it was two and a half years ago, and a client came to me, and they came to me specifically, and they said, “We would really like to understand what the PESO model maturity ladder looks like, especially inside an organization like ours.” And, at the time, I had an idea of what the maturity model looked like just generally, right? But being able to apply it to a really specific situation and a really specific organization and really specific brands, I hadn’t thought through yet. And of course, I can’t put the client’s information in there, right? But I can think about, I could… I, at the time I was like, “Okay, so how do I start to think about this with the constraints that I know they have and sort of how they run PESO now, which isn’t in a true operating system, but more sort of pick and choose tactics.” So I went into, at the time, ChatGPT, and I think Claude does a better work of this now, but I went into ChatGPT and I started asking questions. “So if you had to create… First of all, if you had to create a PESO model maturity ladder based on these seven sort of levels that I had already thought through, how would you do that?” And we just went back and forth, and we asked each other questions. And it would, it, it came up with some things where I was like, “Huh, hadn’t considered that.” So then I would sort of put those over to the side and we would continue. And then I said, “Okay, great. Now here are some some constraints, right? We know, we know it has these, the organization has these constraints. We know that it takes, you know, six, six to eight months to be able to do anything, like all of this stuff. How would you change it based on that?” And so we went back and forth on that. Now, granted, it took probably six weeks for me to get something usable to be able to take to the client, but I wouldn’t have been able to come up with that on my own. And I don’t think that even conversations with my team, we would’ve been able to come up with the, all of that on our own. And so it really helped me just kind of think through some things that I hadn’t considered, some things I probably wouldn’t have considered, and it also helped poke some holes. So then I said, “Okay, great. Here’s what I’m thinking. Poke holes in it.” And it was like, “This doesn’t work, this doesn’t work, this doesn’t work.” And so it just helps you… It was at that point, which I think was two and a half years ago, it was, it’ll be three years in August, really think it, think through sort of beginning to end that I wouldn’t have been able to do on my own. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a great discussion of your evolution on that, and in my case, I was, I was later to the AI party in terms of In-depth use of it. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm Chip Griffin: I, I was very early on to kick the tires, which may have been to my detriment, right? Because the very early incarnations of a lot of these tools was not the best. Gini Dietrich: Not good. Chip Griffin: And, so I, you know, I certainly was, you know, spending a fair bit of time using it for, you know, the basics. You know, some basic writing and editing, some basic image creation. Certainly, you know, transcription, speech-to-text, those kinds of things. But a lot of that, but not really as much in the in-depth strategic areas- Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure … Chip Griffin: until probably a little over a year ago when I started to realize that there had been this shift and that it, it was, at least to me, a lot more usable. And, really just, you know, opening my mind up to what you could actually do with the tools beyond the simple use cases. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think the more time you spend with it, the more you realize just how helpful it can be. And, and particularly in, you know, small owner-led agencies, the… You know, we’ve all sat there and we’ve had an idea at, you know, 8 o’clock on a Friday night or over the weekend, and we’re like, “God, we, I wish we could…You know, I can’t bother the team with this right now though.” Yep, yep. “But I kinda, I kinda wanna continue thinking this through.” Yep. And so you now have this- Yep … you know- Thought partner … always on thought partner- Yep … that, you know, when that idea comes to you, when you’re watching some Law & Order rerun or whatever, you’re like, “Hey, you know, I just had this idea and, you know, what do you think of it?” And, it feels weird the first few times you do it, this, to sit there and say to, you know, the chatbot, “Hey, what, what do you think of this idea?” And, but you learn so much from it because it is, it is able to ask questions, to poke holes, to find gaps. And so if you really treat it as, I don’t wanna say an equal because it’s not quite an equal with you. I mean, you still are the decision maker and you need to remember that you’re always retaining that. But someone who can hold their own in a conversation with you. Yep. Once you accept that, you can get so much from these tools. And it’s not like, you know, two years ago, three years ago when it said, you know, everything is, “Oh, we love you, Chip. This is… You’re brilliant.” I mean, there’s still, there’s still a little bit too much of that for my taste in there, although I’ve coached it into, you know, all of the tools have instructions for me to, you know, knock that off as much as possible. You know, you don’t want it to be fully contrarian where it just disagrees with everything, ’cause you can easily turn your chatbot into basically it just will say the opposite if you, if you go too hard with your instructions to, to not say nice things. But you want to get that, to that point where you’re able to just bounce these things around and say, “Okay, here’s my plan. What am I missing?” And that gap analysis is something that the AI tools do exceptionally well. And part of it is just, you know, making yourself vulnerable to it and allowing you… I mean, and you have to remember that, I mean, that is the best thing about these tools. It’s not human. It’s not judging you ’cause it doesn’t care. Right. It does not care. You know, this is not like having a conversation with one of your team members and they just sit there and they’re like, “Oh, no. Oh, Chip just really doesn’t get it. Why is he, why is he asking me this question?” Because the tools, they really don’t care. And so it is a great place to make yourself more vulnerable and throw some things out there and see what works or what doesn’t. And, and there’s really no limit to what you can ask of it. You obviously have to judge everything that comes back. Not everything is going to be useful or correct. But then, but push back and then say, “Okay, well, you know, I hear what you’re saying, but here’s why that doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.” And sometimes, in my experience, the tools will say, “Yep, okay, you’ve got a good point there,” or it’ll say, “No, I, you know, here’s why you should, you know, reconsider your point of view on it.” And if you’re not seeing that, then you probably need to adjust the instructions that you’re giving to make sure- Yes … that it is open to having a bit more of a substantive dialogue with you. But once you do that, you really have something here that can help you to navigate client strategy, business strategy. It can help you with how to handle HR issues. It’s not a substitute for legal advice or proper HR consultants and all that kind of stuff at this point, but it can help get you a lot of the way there if you’re willing to turn to it and say, Hey, you know, this should be my first port of call in a lot of cases and not the last resort. You know, the other, the other way that you can use it as a thought partner on some of those things too is say, “Okay, you know, here’s, here’s what I’m thinking about or here’s what I need to solve. Ask me questions.” Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And, and you know, we all think of this as we’re asking questions of the AI tools to give us the answers, but it’s also very good at asking you questions and- Yes … and drawing things out. Now, it, it does often need to be encouraged to ask questions. Gini Dietrich: It does, yeah. Chip Griffin: The, they are… The, most of the platforms are starting to get better at having the, their tools pause and ask questions for clarification, but that’s not quite as good as actually saying, “Hey, you know, ask me questions about this so that you can, you can help me think this through.” And it will do that for you and then do follow-up questions and that sort of thing if, again, as long as you’re telling it that’s what you want. And that can help as well because, you know, we’re,.. Even with our own teams, a lot of them won’t ask us questions, right? If you’ve got an employee- ’cause they know you sign the paycheck, and we’ve talked about this many times on the show. It’s really hard to get candid – not just candid advice, but candid questions. They’re not gonna push you in the same way- Yep … the tool will. ‘Cause again, the tool doesn’t care. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: It doesn’t care- Yep … if it hurts your feelings. Gini Dietrich: Yep. And it knows it, it can’t get fired. Like – right? So- Right … it doesn’t have the same experience. I mean, it’s not a sentient being, so it’s not it does, just doesn’t care, and it doesn’t judge you. I think that’s the other thing too. So I think there are so many different opportunities here for you to use it as a thought partner. I mean, the way that I have mine all set up is to do those kinds of things, and it’s to say, Okay- Well, wait a sec, I was thinking about it this way, what do you think about that? Or how do you think about this? Or, you know. And again, ask me questions because trying to figure this out. And I put all sorts of things in there, all sorts of things. I’ll say, “There’s something about this document that bothers me, and I can’t quite put my finger on it.” And it’ll say, “It bothers you because this, this, and this.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s right.” Or, you know, one of the things I think we’re starting to find is that the design work you can get from the AI is pretty darn good. But you have to be… With a human, you don’t have to be ultra specific about what you’re looking for because they’re creative. But with the AI, you have to be ultra specific about what you’re looking for. So I will say, “Here’s what I’m trying to accomplish. Here’s, here are our brand colors,” blah, blah, blah. “This is the vision. How do I describe that in a creative brief?” And I almost have it write its own creative brief, and then I feed that back to it and say, and make some changes, and then say, “Here’s what I’m trying to do.” And I get far better creative design from it when I do it that way, and it’s created its own creative brief. So I think there are lots of ways that you can use it in interesting ways that you’re probably not considering right now. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and I think, you know, maybe a future episode’s a good time to talk about, you know, the specifics of how you use planning and context and providing information to get better results, because I think that’s, that’s an area where a lot of people haven’t invested enough and don’t invest enough, and it’s really just kinda fire and forget. And, and that tends- Yeah … to be where you get the worst results. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: And, to your point, if you’re, if you’re sitting there and providing it with the information that it needs, I mean, simple things like what are my brand colors? What’s my brand philosophy? Yep. You know, what, what’s my own personal risk tolerance? I mean, you- Yep … you wanna make sure that you’re stockpiling that kind of information because otherwise you’re not gonna get useful feedback or useful questions from it if it’s assuming that you are one way and you are not. It’s the same as anybody else. If you… I mean, we’ve talked about this before, you really have to sort of start to act like these tools are human- Yep in that you can’t just expect them to run from a standing start and have a good result. Yeah. They really do need good guidance from you. Yes. I think the other thing we do, we do always need to be careful about with these tools is that, that they are, they do somewhat, you know, uh, float with the winds, if you will. And so they are not always consistent- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … in what they might recommend. And so- Yep … so you do have to accept a little bit of that, that it’s, it’s kind of like having that employee who, you know, one day they’re very cheery and thinks this is the right direction, and the next day they’re kind of like, “Eh, nah.” So, you always need to keep yourself in the driver’s seat when you’re using it as a thought partner. And I know I’ve certainly had situations where, you know, I’ve fed it some things, and it’s come back with a recommended strategy, and then a couple of weeks later I, you know, I ask something about the strategy as if I’ve adopted it, and they say, “Well, I don’t think that’s a good strategy.” Ah. But it was, it was crafted by you. Gini Dietrich: It was your idea. Yes. Chip Griffin: But, so then when you dig into it, you can sit there and say, “Okay, well, I, you know, I see why it said it the first time because it backed it up, and I can see why it’s saying it this time. And so now my job is to reconcile that and decide which one I want to lean into- Yep … more than the other. Yep. I, I mean, you… And, and whenever you’re using it as a thought partner, it’s always a good idea to ask for supporting information for whatever it’s suggesting. Not to… And, usually they’re pretty good. I mean, actually my issue used to be that it provided too much, that particularly ChatGPT just loved to just spit out like a whole research paper for it. Right, right. Like, ” I think that your brand color should be green,” and then it’s like- Right … 200,000 words on why green is the right choice. Yes. I’m like- I don’t- … “Dude, just tell me green.” Yeah, yes. Okay? Like- Yes … if I want that detail- 100% … I’ll ask for it. Yes. So they are certainly more balanced than they used to be. But they will still generally provide backup. But if not, ask why, and that’s when it will start to provide, you know, either citations or facts or at least something around the reasoning of it so that you can then judge, “Okay, that does really make sense to me,” or, “No, that, that doesn’t really fit for what I want because…” Yep. And then always tell it back to it. Like, you can’t just, you can’t just get something back and say, “Oh, I don’t like this,” and then move on, close the chat, and go to another one. You’ve got to have that back and forth- Yeah … so that the tools can learn from what you are thinking and, and what you are feeling from the responses that they’re giving. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, there have been times where it’s late at night, and I’m still going, and finally I’m like, “I can’t…” I will literally say to it, “I’m about to die. My eyes hurt because I’m so tired. I have to go to bed.” It’ll be like, “Okay, good night, Gini. Sleep tight.” Chip Griffin: I can’t claim to be having conversations quite like that with the tools. That’s not quite my style. But to each their own. All right, well, I think with that we probably should say good night to our listeners now, and we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0Hablamos con Marcos Muíño, fundador de YepCode, una startup recién adquirida por Factorial, sobre cómo se construye, se vende y se integra una compañía tecnológica dentro de una empresa en plena fase de escala. YepCode nace para resolver un problema muy concreto: permitir que las empresas creen integraciones y automatizaciones de forma más rápida, flexible y segura, sin tener que meter cada nuevo desarrollo dentro del core del producto.Durante la conversación entramos en por qué Factorial decide comprar YepCode, qué papel juegan las integraciones en una compañía SaaS que crece en clientes, países y necesidades operativas, y por qué este tipo de tecnología puede convertirse en una pieza clave para escalar producto. Hablamos de APIs, automatizaciones, agentes de IA, procesos internos y de cómo pasar de integraciones que antes podían tardar meses a flujos mucho más rápidos y adaptables.También hablamos de la adquisición desde el lado más humano y empresarial: cómo se negocia una operación así, qué significa vender tu startup, por qué no se trata solo de comprar software sino de incorporar talento. Una conversación muy interesante sobre M&A, producto, timing, cultura y la diferencia entre cerrar una operación y conseguir que la integración funcione.Además, el episodio marca un nuevo capítulo para Factorial con la apertura de su oficina en A Coruña, impulsada por la incorporación del equipo de YepCode. Una conversación sobre startups, tecnología, integraciones, inteligencia artificial y expansión territorial, con una idea de fondo muy clara: cuando una compañía crece, el verdadero reto no es solo vender más, sino construir la infraestructura que permita seguir escalando.

Most agency owners think they’re doing their team a favor when they quietly absorb the painful, tedious, or time-consuming work. They’re likely not. In this episode, Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich look at the sacrifices owners make on behalf of their teams and why those sacrifices often create more problems than they solve. This isn't about the occasional tactical sacrifice, it's about the systemic ones: the conscious decisions to absorb entire categories of work because you’ve decided your team would find them too difficult, too unpleasant, or too much of a burden. Gini admits she’s guilty of it herself, sharing that a new COO sat her down with a list of tasks she’d been handling and told her she shouldn’t be doing any of them. The jobs weren’t glamorous, but they weren’t the owner’s job either. Chip extends this into two areas where owner sacrifice tends to do the most damage: new business development, where owners keep proposals and pitches entirely to themselves thinking they’re protecting team time, and org chart design, where flat structures are usually not a deliberate choice but the result of owners absorbing management responsibilities no one else wanted. Both patterns block team growth and overload the owner at the same time. Gini describes a practice she returns to every quarter, sorting her task list into three buckets — things only she can do, things she enjoys but probably doesn’t need to do, and things she absolutely should not be doing. The third list gets delegated immediately. Chip puts it like this: for everything on your plate, ask yourself why you are the one doing it. If there isn't a good answer, stop doing it. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The number of sacrifices that many owners make is extreme and poorly thought out. They solve problems for today, but create problems for the future.” Gini Dietrich: “On a new business front, if you bring team members in, even though you might feel guilty about it not being non-billable work, they have the ability to become engaged with the prospect early on, understand the work that you’re doing, and give a different perspective.” Chip Griffin: “If most people are reporting into the owner, it’s usually because either they’re a control freak or because they feel like they don’t want to burden people with management.” Gini Dietrich: “I sit down with my task list and I split it into three groups. Things that are on my list that only I can do. Things that are on my list that I enjoy doing, but I probably don’t need to do. And things that are on my list that I absolutely should not be doing. The last list needs to be delegated immediately.” Related The one hand rule: you probably have too many direct reports Letting go as an agency owner Preparing for your agency's group presentations and pitches

After 12 years and several refreshes, the PESO Model® has a new graphic — and Gini is drawing the line between free use and theft. In this episode, she discusses what changed, what the four outcomes (Authority, Credibility, Discovery, Growth) actually mean, how to read the graphic correctly, and what now requires a license. Download the graphic at spinsucks.com/peso-model-graphic. Use it well.

(0:00-19:49) The Athletic's Tony Jones joins the show, he gives us an update on Embiid's health and how the Sixers could matchup vs the Knicks(19:49-34:07) Gini Parent, widow of Bernie Parent joins the show on the Flyers run(34:07-40:37) We preview Sixers & Flyers games Monday night Please note: Timecodes may shift by a few minutes due to inserted ads. Because of copyright restrictions, portions—or entire segments—may not be included in the podcast.For the latest updates, visit the show page Kincade & Salciunas on 975thefanatic.com. Follow 97.5 The Fanatic on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Watch our shows on YouTube, and subscribe to stay up-to-date with all the best moments from Philly's home for sports!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, Chip and Gini open with the analogy of Canadian doubles, the tennis format where two players face one. If your team outnumbers the prospect, you don’t project strength, you project awkwardness. But the conversation goes well beyond headcount. A little preparation goes a long way in making sure every seat on your side is justified. You'll want to match expertise to whoever the prospect brought, which requires actually knowing who’s coming. Gini described a recent pitch where she reverse-engineered her attendee list based entirely on who was showing up from the prospect’s side. That’s not logistics, it’s strategy. And whoever is in the room during the pitch needs to be the person doing the work after the contract is signed — not a handoff to a team with no context and no ownership. Both Chip and Gini are emphatic that the meeting itself should not feel rehearsed like a school play. Agency owners who show up prepared to have a real conversation before pitching solutions will stand out. Harder for many owners is knowing when to keep quiet. Interjecting while a team member gives an imperfect answer undermines their confidence, signals to the prospect they can’t be trusted, and makes them rely on you. The debrief after the meeting is where the coaching happens. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You can’t do the bait and switch. You’ve gotta make sure that whoever they’re getting to know during the prospecting phase, that that’s who they’re going to be working with.” Gini Dietrich: “I would go to the meetings. I would create the proposal. I would sell it, I would close it, and then I would hand it off. And my team was like, they weren’t bought in. They didn’t understand…The client always felt like, well, I wanna work with you because you were in the room and that’s who we bought.” Chip Griffin: “The more you talk, it does three things. It undermines the confidence of your team member. It undermines the confidence of the client in your team. And it also puts you in a position where you are putting yourself as more necessary to the ongoing success of the relationship. And none of those things are good.” Gini Dietrich: “One of the things I think that sets a small agency apart from a large one is being able to diagnose the problem, being able to ask the questions and really have a conversation instead of doing a dog and pony show. It’s gonna be so much more appreciated because now you’re treating yourselves like their partner instead of their vendor.” View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And today we’re gonna play Canadian Doubles. No, we’re not. For those of you who are not familiar, Canadian Doubles is a version of tennis where you have two players on one side of the net and one player on the other side. Did you know that? Gini Dietrich: I have so many, I have so many questions. Chip Griffin: I don’t know why they do that. And the only reason I even know about it is because of discussions that we’ve had, in the past, or that I had, you know, 30 years ago with some business partners was how you, what the dynamics are of meeting with teams, particularly from a prospect when you’re pitching them on things. And so we always said, you know, we wanna avoid playing Canadian doubles, basically where you’re outnumbering your opponent or prospect in this case. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s really smart because you, you probably want to at least balance it, if not come just a little bit under, because when you have more people from your team than the client has, it tends to overpower them and become a little bit overwhelming for ’em, which is not what you want. That’s not the impression you want to leave. Chip Griffin: No. I mean, it’s, uh, you know, any time that, that you, you are in a position where you are confronted by a larger number of people, whether that’s, you know, in combat, in sales, in whatever. You know, you, you don’t like that you, you kind of want even numbers, right? But that’s, we’re gonna go beyond that, folks. So just so you know, we’re not talking just about the numbers of people. Gini Dietrich: The end. Chip Griffin: But really, you know, I thought it would be helpful for us to have a conversation about how you handle group presentations with prospects or even potentially with clients or those sorts of things, because it’s something that many of us, even in small agencies often do where we’ll have more than one person in the room or on a call, pitching to a client, talking them through things. So there’s a lot of things that go into that. How many people, how do you split up the presentation time? How do you make sure that everybody looks like they’re contributing in a meaningful way? How do you manage the time when you’ve got multiple voices speaking and make sure that you’ve got a real dialogue? So. I think there’s a lot of things to consider anytime you’re doing group presentations and it’s something that since we often end up having to do it, it’s worth thinking about how to do it well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I completely agree. It’s, you know, one of the things that we think about it all the time, especially we, not just with new business, but with clients too. You know, we had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with a client and they really wanted me in the room, but there were only two of them and there were five of us, and so we had to kind of decide is it really important for me to be in the room? Then, and that’s the case then who are we not going to have in the room from, you know, the client team perspective. And so we went back and forth about it to decide who, who needed to be there for sure, and who was sort of ancillary and who could just get updates later. But it’s definitely something we think about all the time, not just with prospects, both with clients too. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And when I’ve worked in larger agencies, I mean, there have been times where, you know, you feel like you’re in an international summit because, you know, one side’s got 10 people, the other side’s got, you know, 12 or 13. And, and I think those are just silly on both sides. I mean, I don’t understand the value of having that many people in the room for a pitch, really, at any point. So for most of our listeners, that’s not the size and scale that we’re talking about, but I do think it’s important to think through why every single person is in that conversation. From your side in particular. Obviously you can’t really control who the other side brings, although it is worth understanding who they’re bringing and maybe asking them questions about, you know, whether, you know, whether that’s the right mix. Do they need to add somebody? Does, does that person really need to be there for this conversation? You can do that diplomatically so that you have the right mix of people on both sides. But everybody on your side, at least the side you control, needs to have a clear purpose for being there. And you shouldn’t throw extra bodies in just to show Hey, we’ve got these smart people. ’cause I’ve been in plenty of those presentations where like, we don’t really need you for anything. We just want you to be here so that they know that you exist. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And that’s an important temptation to resist because oftentimes the other side will walk out saying, well, why was that person there? That didn’t make any sense. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yes. I think too, if you do your due diligence to say, you know, who from your side is going to be there, then you can sort of match expertise, right? So we had a new business, a new business meeting last week, and from their side they had the VP of comms from two business lines. They had the chief communications officer and they had two data analytics people. So from my side, I ensured that we had at least two communications professionals, at least one data person, myself and our chief Revenue Officer were there. And so it sort of matched the same level of expertise. And everybody was able to have conversations with their peers to be able to understand, okay, this is what they’ll do and this is how they’ll help us. And it was really, really valuable from that perspective. You know, could I have handled the communications piece of it for probably three or four of them? Sure. But I also don’t, I’m not gonna be the point of contact from a day-to-day perspective. So I wanted to make sure that the people that were in the room also were gonna be the day-to-day point points of contact. So you, you can kind of massage that a little bit based on who’s in the room from the client’s perspective or the prospect’s perspective and really understanding, okay, You know, we have to think about it both from the perspective of do we have the expertise on our side to match that. And who will be the day-to-day contact on our side that they would be working with. So that they don’t feel like we’re doing a swap, you know, once the business is won that they’ve then now have to work with the lower class employees. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, those are, those are two fantastic points. And, so I really wanna underscore those. The first is the simplest one, which is you can’t do the bait and switch. You’ve gotta make sure that whoever they’re getting to know during the prospecting phase, that that’s who they’re going to be working with. Maybe not every single person who’s in the room, but at least whoever they main contact is. If they become a client, absolutely needs to be there. And that’s, that’s important from the client’s perspective so that they get to know that person and it, they can make a, an intelligent, informed decision about whether they want to work with that person, right? So they don’t get surprised after the fact. But it’s just as important for your team as well because by having that person in the room, they can help make, they’ll have heard firsthand what the client is looking for. You don’t have to play a game of telephone with them. They’ll be up to speed from day one. They will also help you to better spec out the proposal and pricing. Yep. Because they will have heard it and, and they’re not having it forced down their throats. They can be in a position to help guide what do you make for promises in terms of results, deadlines, the amount of time involved, those kinds of things. So really important from that perspective. But the second one is equally important, which is that you match up expertise. Particularly from the perspective, I think of, part of it’s the ability to have conversations with peers, but part of it is making sure that if you see someone bringing an expertise on their side, who is likely to ask particular questions or have particular concerns, that you have somebody on your side who can address those questions and concerns. Whether that’s a true subject matter expert on it or whether it’s in your case you’re an owner, you, you happen to know enough about that area that you could handle it if you had to. Sometimes you need to make judgements, but you know, if you’re pitching a website redesign and they say they’re gonna have their IT security guy in the room, you better have somebody in that room who can address their IT security questions. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yes. Chip Griffin: Whether that’s you or somebody else. Yes. The fact that they’ve invited them to the meeting means it’s probably going to be a topic of conversation because you generally don’t invite your IT security guys just for Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, content conversations. They’re there for a particular reason or concern. Gini Dietrich: We find that a lot with the clients that we work with. When they invite their compliance, somebody from their compliance team, you’re like, okay, all right. We’re gonna make sure that we, got it. You’re taking this seriously. Okay. There, there are gonna be questions that I cannot answer. Okay. We’re gonna make sure somebody from our side is. So same kind of thing. You just have to understand who from their side is invited so that you can match that expertise. Chip Griffin: Right. Or, or you happen to notice they’ve invited their IT security guy or something like that and you say, Hey, I, I noticed you’ve invited so and so. I don’t know if this is the right forum for that. Maybe we have a, you know, maybe we should set up a separate conversation so that the whole team doesn’t get bogged down in this. Because, and, and a lot of times the IT security guy will be just as receptive to that, that he doesn’t have to sit through a whole bunch of conversation that is boring to him. And, and it may work better from your side just to have the experts have that conversation as a sidebar instead of eating up valuable time in the group presentation. So certainly look at who’s being brought into the room so that you can maybe address some of those things in advance. And steer it in a direction that’s more likely to achieve the outcome that you are looking for. Again, whether it’s a prospective client or an existing client and you’re trying to steer a project in a certain direction. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so smart, and I think you, what you said earlier about, you know, ensuring that the day-to-day contact is there is critical. You know, that’s one of the mistakes I made early, early on from my perspective, is I always felt like new business wasn’t billable and – well, not felt like – it wasn’t billable. And so I didn’t wanna ask my team to go to those meetings. And I was doing a lot in the beginning. Because it was, it would eat into their billable time. Right? And so I would leave them in the office and I would go to the meetings. But you’re right, like you miss the nuance. You miss the context. I would go to the meetings. I would create the proposal. I would sell it, I would close it, and then I would hand it off. And my team was like, they weren’t bought in. They didn’t understand. They may have had their own ideas that, you know, I hadn’t had on my own. The client always felt like, well, I wanna work with you because you were in the room and that’s who we bought, and now you’re having… So it was just like, it was a hard lesson for me to have to learn. But, you know, it’s, it’s a good lesson and I think if you can avoid some of those mistakes, that’s a good way to, to think about it. Because yes, it’s not billable and yes, your team still has to, if you’re, you know, tracking billable hours and capacity and all that, they still have to do that. But you can reduce their percentage that they have to get because they’re participating in new business and they will have ideas as well. Like I, I had a boss earlier in my career who was so smart, and he was a great idea guy. Like, he would go in and he could see a client’s problem or a prospect’s problem immediately, and he would say, okay, this is how you need to solve it. And he’d be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And when I wasn’t in the room, he would sell all of that stuff. But we didn’t have the capability to do it. Chip Griffin: Yep. Gini Dietrich: And so once I sat in the room, I literally would kick him under the table if he started to sell something we couldn’t do because he would sell stuff that, yeah, it should have been done, but the agency didn’t have the internal capability to be able to do it. And so I started. I, I invited myself to new business meetings so that I could literally sit on, sit across from him and I would kick him underneath the table every time he started to, to sell something that we couldn’t do. And, you know, so all to say that there is an opportunity for your team to help, not just, not that you’re necessarily doing that, but for your team to help but also understand and be bought into the process. And from a client’s perspective, they’re buying the team. They’re buying the people, and a lot of it is chemistry. A lot of it is whether or not I can work with these people. So you wanna have those people in the room. Chip Griffin: It’s, it’s funny when you, when you talk about selling things that you don’t do and you kicking under the table, because I, I had a business partner who, he sort of, reveled in the ability to sell things that we didn’t currently have the capability to do. And then we would walk out of the meeting and he’d kind of have a twinkle in his eye and look over at me and say, do you like how I did that? He’s like, you can do that, right? I’m like, so I’ll be figuring it out now. Gini Dietrich: I mean, we’ll figure it out! Chip Griffin: Because I was the one who owned the figuring it out part. He was the one who leaned into the selling part. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So, it certainly made for some, some interesting times. But, but we always seemed to come out okay. Which unfortunately encouraged him to continue doing that. Gini Dietrich: Of course it did. Yes. Chip Griffin: You know, it is what it is. But okay, so, you know, we, we really thought through who we’ve got in the room. Now. Let’s think about how do we actually prepare the presentation or the, really the discussion, because I think we think of these things as presentations, but more often than not, I mean, this is not, you know, you’re not getting up and, and doing an audition on stage where you’ve got, you know, the director, producer, whatever, they’re taking notes and making a decision. It should be more of a dialogue in most cases. So. How do you think about preparing for these, setting the agenda for them, preparing your team for the conversation so that it doesn’t become just, you know, we’re gonna just, you know, do a death march through PowerPoint slides, split up over four people over the next, you know, 60 minutes and there’s no time for conversation at all. Gini Dietrich: Oh, yeah, no, that’s, we, we do not do that. So one of the things that we do is, is typically there is a relationship internally that somebody already has with the prospect. And so that person sort of leads the conversation, right? They make the introductions, they kind of set the agenda. They are the ones that sort of lead the agenda in the conversation. Our chief revenue officer has like a 12 minute, I’d say it’s 12 to 15 minute deck that he goes through that just introduces most, almost everybody knows PESO. So we just kind of give a high level… Like, and it’s a really, it’s a really nice, it’s not a dog and pony show. It’s not a capabilities presentation. It’s more like this is what we know about you and the pain points we see that you have, and here’s how PESO solves it kind of thing. And then we open it up for, for conversations. And so usually the point of contact, the day-to-day person that would be, their day-to-day manages that piece. So it’s a lot of us asking questions and, you know, really listening and taking notes and understanding. And then the person who has the relationship wraps it up at the end and does the follow up. So it’s usually, I would say it’s usually three to five of us, depending on how many on their side. And that’s typically how we set up the agenda is based on that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think it’s really smart to have whoever has the best relationship, be the person who is effectively managing the meeting, because that, that generally is gonna improve the comfort level on the other side of the table. And so, you know, you might as well lean into that unless for some reason it would be really weird, right? I mean, maybe it’s some super junior person who happens to just be, you know, friends with or used to work with someone. I mean, you know, maybe in those cases you don’t, but in the vast majority of cases where that relationship exists, you should take advantage of that. And, you know, certainly lean into that. I think the other important thing is to, to think through how you, you spread the conversation around so that everybody feels like there’s a reason for being there, both on your side and theirs, right? You don’t want someone on your side to feel like, well, what was the point? Why did I even have to waste my time coming here or showing up for the call, depending on what it is. But I, you know, so part of that is, is you as the leader, trying to think through how do you make sure that you don’t consume all the oxygen? Because I think there’s a real tendency on a lot of owner’s parts to just jump in because they probably do have an answer to most of the questions that would come up in these sessions. It’s gonna be rare in I think most cases that you couldn’t give that answer in that one hour session that you’ve probably got. But you have to, to find a way to make sure that you’re weaving your team in. And if you’ve brought in an expert in paid media or something like that, and a paid media question comes up, resist the urge to answer yourself Uhhuh and bring your paid expert in to talk about that. When you’re doing the overall presentation, spread it around and let them talk about their areas of expertise. But do make sure they understand what their limits are, because we all have those team members, and maybe it’s us, maybe it’s one of our team members, who just likes to keep going. Gini Dietrich: Uh-huh. Chip Griffin: We, I mean, I see this repeatedly where you get someone on one of these calls and you know you’ve told ’em they’ve got three minutes, 30 minutes later, they’re still going uhhuh because they’re just so excited about whatever they’re talking about. You’ve gotta manage that bit of it so that you have the right spread of discussion. Yes, and information dissemination in those meetings. Gini Dietrich: Yes. I know some of those, I’ll tell you that shutting up and letting your team answer questions is probably one of the hardest jobs you have. And they’re going to answer it in a way that you necessarily wouldn’t. Or sometimes the prospect will ask a question and they do like the runaround, and you can tell they don’t really know the answer and they’re waiting to be saved and you can’t really save them. But they don’t really answer the question, and so you have to figure out a way to sort of wrap it in a bow. It is literally one of the hardest things that you could do. And for those of you on video, I have a, a notebook full of notes where I sit in those meetings and I just, every time I want to interject, I just, and I just write down so that I can provide feedback later. But I’m telling you, it is so challenging, so challenging. Chip Griffin: And it, I would absolutely agree with you. It is one of the most difficult things that I had to learn as I was running teams. But I, I eventually did get to that point where I, I felt like I was pretty good at being able to decide, is this so important that it’s worth me interjecting, correcting, whatever it may be. Because there are times, I mean, you should never just completely zip it and, and let the wrong impression be left or something like that. If you, if you know that it needs clean up on aisle six, just a little yeah, clean up on aisle six, please. But it, but if it’s just not exactly the way you would do it or it’s really, it’s inconsequential to the outcome of the meeting, let it go. Because the more you talk, it does two things. First of all. Well, it does three things really. It undermines the confidence of your team member. Yep. It undermines the confidence of the client in your team. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And it also puts you in a position where you are putting yourself as more necessary to the ongoing success of the relationship. And none of those things are good. Gini Dietrich: Not good at all. Yeah, it’s super, super challenging, but I think it’s one of the things that you have to work on. And so one of the things that we do after a meeting is we do a debrief. Right. And I will, I will say, this was great, this was great. This was great. I probably would’ve answered this a little bit differently, and here’s why. You know, and I, I give them the immediate feedback so that they can, and eventually what happens is you start to run like a well-oiled machine, right? But you have to be able to do those things, and every time you hire someone new and bring them into that process, you kind of have to build that well-oiled machine again. And so it’s a constant funnel of having to provide feedback and, you know, take really good notes. And of course AI can take notes for you, but you’ll see things that AI won’t, right? Yeah. That you just wanna jot down. And really providing that instant feedback so that you’re doing that debrief and you’re starting to build that really well oiled machines so that eventually there have been a couple of newbies, the business meetings where I’ve been like, why was I there? I was not needed. Right. And that’s what you wanna get to. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And I, I think these, you know, having, having meetings afterwards are important. I think having meetings before, so don’t, don’t of course, yes. Throw everybody in. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Yes. Hundred percent. Chip Griffin: There’s a happy balance there too. Yes, because I’ve, I’ve seen a lot of these prep sessions go off the rails because it turns into almost a skit and so, you know. There is a point of too much preparation and so you certainly need to have conversations beforehand. Who’s gonna do what, what are we generally gonna say? Are there any, you know, third rails that we should try to avoid here in this conversation? You know, share that information in advance, particularly for team members who may not be used to those kinds of conversations so that they kind of know, you know, what those guardrails are. But try to avoid scripting it out so heavily that it does come across like you’re doing a school play. Yeah. Because I have been part of those. Mm-hmm. I have seen, I’ve had those presentations made to me. They are mind numbing. It has to be, it has to feel like you’re having a human expert conversation. Yeah. And it should not feel like, you know, I’ve got three and a half minutes and I’ve timed it down exactly like that. And if anything comes up, I’m gonna be, you know, lost because now you’ve knocked me off of my course and I’m gonna hand it right over to you. I mean, treat it like a human conversation. And I think that’s gonna be the way you get the best result. Gini Dietrich: And I will end this by saying that is 100% accurate. We have several clients who are going through the agency of record interview process right now. And because we’re the PESO integrators, we’re part of that process. And, first of all, every large agency, every single one does exactly what you just said. They come in, they’re well rehearsed. They’re well practiced. They each have their part, they’ve memorized it all, and they spend an hour going through a capability stack. And it is mind numbing. Like you just, you’re just like, oh my gosh. They don’t ask questions. They don’t try to better understand what the opportunity is, none of that. And then when it gets to the q and a, they don’t have answers because they didn’t practice that part. And so one of the things I think that sets a small agency apart from a large one is being able to diagnose the problem, being able to ask the questions and really have a conversation. Instead of doing a dog and pony show. It’s gonna be so much more appreciated because now you’re treating yourselves like their partner instead of their vendor who’s just coming in and being like, wah wah wah wah wah. Chip Griffin: And, and it helps your team too because they’re, they’ll be in a better position to handle the questions if, if everybody is so prepared. Yes. It tends to make the q and a session really difficult because Gini Dietrich: it’s very difficult. Chip Griffin: People feel so locked in to what they’ve pre-prepared that anything outside of that they may not have the confidence to handle. So, yeah. Obviously every team is different. Every individual is different. You gotta figure out how to get the most from them, but in general, drive it towards actual human conversation. Not a school play. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it works every single time. Chip Griffin: Indeed. So with that, hopefully we’ve given you some good tips for your next group presentation to a prospect, a client, or whomever. And, please do, tune into the next episode. In the meantime, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Í morgin er Altjóða arbeiðaradagur, har arbeiðarafeløg brúka høvi at gera vart við seg á teimum ymsu 1. maidagshaldunum. Men hví halda vit 1. mai? Er tað viðkomandi enn? Í sendingini fara vit aftur í søguna um arbeiðarafeløgini, og spyrja, hvat tey upprunaliga settu sær fyri. Tann spurningin seta vit Erlandi Viberg Joensen, lektara í søgu á søgu- og samfelagsdeildini á Fróðskaparsetri Føroya, sum granskar í m.a. føroysku arbeiðarafeløgunum. Er málið rokkið? Og hvussu er støðan hjá arbeiðarafeløgunum í dag? Tað spyrja vit um í Breddanum í dag. Í útvarpsstovuni eru Sonja Jógvansdóttir, samskipari í Verkafólki, og Hera Reynheim, formaður í Havnar arbeiðarafelag.

The entry-level talent pipeline is being entirely restructured. If agency owners don’t figure out what role a young professional actually plays in an AI-assisted agency, they won’t just struggle to hire today. They’ll have no one to promote in five years. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into what’s happening with entry-level hiring right now, and why the answer can't be to stop hiring junior staff altogether. The conversation covers why the old model of routine work is gone, what needs to replace it, and why agencies that don’t solve this problem soon are setting themselves up for failure. The episode opens with an observation from Gini: every presentation she gives to college classes lately surfaces the same anxiety from students. Nobody’s hiring at the entry level because AI can handle the work those roles used to cover — news releases, media lists, social drafts, basic research. How can they find jobs today, and get the on-the-job training they need to move forward in their careers? Chip frames the problem as a junction of circumstances: the rise of AI, economic uncertainty, and a higher education system that hasn't evolved with the workforce reality. Colleges discouraging AI use while their graduates are about to enter workplaces built around it is, as he puts it, the same mistake as banning calculators in math class. The students coming in aren’t unprepared because they’re less capable, they’re underprepared because the institutions that trained them weren’t keeping up with the times. Chip and Gini agree that entry-level hires aren’t obsolete, but the role must change. Instead of being the lowest rung of the ladder, new professionals need to come in already functioning like managers — just managing AI tools and processes instead of people. That requires more on-the-job training, better-documented processes and SOPs, and a genuine commitment to learning and development that most agencies still don’t have. There's more than one upside, though. Better documentation and SOPs don’t just help entry-level hires do their jobs — they make your agency more efficient, reduce owner dependency, and, for those who want to sell someday, significantly improve the value of the business. Their closing argument is not to avoid entry-level hiring because the old version of the role is antiquated. Rethink what the role is, invest in the systems that support it, and get comfortable assigning junior people with responsibilities that would have felt premature five years ago. The alternative is a mid-level talent shortage that will be very hard to fix. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Effectively everybody is starting out as a manager now. It just may be that instead of managing people, you’re managing AI agents or assistants. That’s still a management role.” Gini Dietrich: “If we don’t solve this now as agency leaders and as an industry, there will be nobody at the mid-level to take the jobs in five years. No one.” Chip Griffin: “Don’t decide that you’re not going to hire them and just use the AI for it. Rethink what the role of an entry level hire is in your business because that will allow you to build both for today and for the future.” Gini Dietrich: “I think providing and teaching the young professionals how to use critical thinking skills to orchestrate an army of AI bots is exactly where we should be training them.” Related Managing Gen Z agency employees (and anyone else with less experience than you) ALP 34: How to help junior agency employees grow AI no threat to agency employees learning fundamental skills View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, you know, I’m thinking about just getting started in the workforce now, and, you know, I’ve, I’ve never had a job in my life and Gini Dietrich: Oh, yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, being so young and green, I, I need to figure out what I’m going to do. Gini Dietrich: You know, it’s funny because I do a lot of zoom in… I zoom into a lot of classes to talk about PESO, and one of the questions I always get, and especially right now is, you know, how am I, what job am I gonna do when I graduate? How am I gonna get a good job? The job market sucks. Then nobody’s hiring for entry level because of AI. Like, what am I gonna do? And that question, I would say, that question has come up. In every single presentation that I’ve done for the last two years. And kids are really concerned about it. And, you know, in Counselor’s Academy through PRSA, we’ve been having the conversation too with other agency owners about, you know, who’s hiring entry level, and if you are, what are you doing? And it’s crickets. Like nobody’s hiring entry level professionals right now, because everything that we would have someone do as a brand new professional or as an intern, AI can do and do it much more effectively. So, you know, news releases and blog posts, drafts and social media drafts and media lists and all that, like, it’s way more efficient to have AI do it. So one of the conversations we’ve been having here is it’s really important to me as an individual to continue to give back to the industry. So how do we create an intern program that’s less about that kind of work and more about giving them the critical skills that they need to be able to orchestrate prompts, integrate AI into their roles. And I think that, I think that’s the path that we are gonna probably go down. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, it, it’s an important topic. It is, I think there’s a confluence of events that are making it particularly challenging for entry-level workers today. So you’ve got the rise of AI along with economic and other uncertainty coming together. So, you know, there, there’s a number of forces that just make it really difficult. And I think it’s all layered on top of a higher education system that frankly is almost entirely broken. Yeah. And obviously that’s not really something we’re gonna solve here on, on this show, nor is it really the general domain of it. But I think it is, it’s a fundamental challenge that, that most higher education is not really oriented around helping students to find jobs afterwards. Right. That’s, that’s almost an afterthought. Yep. And I’m not saying that it needs to become vocational training. At the same time, you know, four years of pure academics, and discouraging the use of things like AI. A lot of, you know, colleges and universities say, oh no, no, you can’t use AI to complete your papers. Well, that’s not the reality that these students are about to embark upon. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And so, you know, to me, that reminds me of, you know, years gone by where, oh, you can’t use Wikipedia, you can’t use the internet. You can’t use calculators. I mean, when I grew up, you can’t use a calculator in math class. I mean, these things just, it really is an antiquated system. So you’ve got that as their stepping stone into the workforce, and then they’ve got these headwinds of the economy and AI fighting against them. And so I do think it is, it’s a challenge for the industry, but ultimately it’s a challenge for individual agencies as well. Because even if you don’t want to give back, you have to think about how you’re going to staff your business, not just today, but for the longer term. And historically, agencies have promoted from within quite often, or hired somebody who was an entry level somewhere else. And so at some point, if we don’t figure out how to solve this entry level hire problem, we’re gonna be in a situation where there’s nobody out there for those mid-tier roles that we need to hire still. Gini Dietrich: Right. That’s exactly right. And that’s the, we continue to have that conversation in every single one of my leadership team meetings where there is a section where we’re talking about interns on the path for entry-level professionals. Because you’re exactly right, if we don’t solve this now as agency leaders and as an industry, there will be nobody at the mid-level to take the jobs in five years. No one. So we have to figure this out. Chip Griffin: And I think a lot of it is reimagining what that entry level role is. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Which means as, as owners, as bosses, we need to think about how we structure those roles. But it also means that in preparation for this, you know, colleges, universities, intern programs also need to be thinking about what skills they’re sending people into the workforce with. And I think I’ve mentioned this previously on the show, I mean, effectively everybody is starting out as a manager now. It just may, may be that instead of managing people, you’re managing AI agents or assistants. That’s still a management role. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm.  Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: And so, you know, whereas we used to bring people in and, and they would be purely managed and just… They would be the, you know, the functionaries who did what we told them to do. They need to be in a position that they can actually direct resources right out of the gate. And so that, that requires a lot more training before the job, but really a lot more probably on the job training. And we’re awful at training managers at every level within our businesses, including most owners have just awful management skills. And so if we don’t have them at the higher levels, how do we get them to the entry level? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we, this has been a challenge forever. I mean, the way I got quote unquote management skills is my boss came to me and said, so and so has just been put on a PIP, and she has 60 days to figure it out, and we’d like to manage you through that. Like, we’d like you to manage her through that process. And I was like…what? Okay. Guess what? She didn’t make it and it was a terrible experience for me, but that’s how they quote, unquote, gave me management training. Right? That’s not management training. That’s not leadership training. That’s like trying to, to figure out what you’re good at or what your strengths are by trying to help somebody who’s failing but doesn’t want the help and doesn’t wanna try to succeed. Terrible idea. All to say, I think you’re exactly right. And I think one of the big things that everyone in general is missing around AI is critical thinking. And I think we, we say, okay, like, oh, this is gonna make me so much faster and I’m gonna prompt it and I’m gonna get it what it needs. And then I forget about actually thinking through, is this right? Is it what I’m trying to accomplish? Is it strategic? Is it going to deliver results for the client? We don’t, we’ve, we sort of are in this world of, oh my gosh, this has made me so much more, so much faster and more productive. We’re losing that critical thinking piece. And I think providing that and teaching the young professionals how to use critical thinking skills to orchestrate an army of AI bots is exactly where we should be training them. Chip Griffin: I mean, I think ultimately learning and development needs to be a much stronger piece of even the smallest agencies. Yep. And there needs to be a much greater emphasis on the mentorship and coaching and training of everybody at, again, at every level within the business, including yourself as the owner. Yep. And, and if you’re not committed to that, it’s going to be very difficult to successfully integrate new entry level hires of any kind in the future because they do need greater support than ever before. It’s not just, Hey, you know, go through this, you know, list and figure out, you know, which emails are bad or, you know, go find email addresses for these reporters. Right? Or, you know, the, the basic tasks that a lot of people may have been asked to do in the last 10 or 20 years, they’re gone. And so everything requires that higher level of judgment. And the only way that we can expect good results is if we’re providing the assistance from above. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I completely agree.You know, we do, I think we do a fairly good job of internal training because we have the PESO model. So you know, everybody on our team has to go through it and everybody on our team has to be certified and everybody on our team has to keep up with it. Everybody on our team has to understand what I’m producing from a content perspective every week. And you know, one of the things I say constantly to them is, you guys have to be ahead no matter what. You can’t have a client who knows more about it than you do. You can’t have a client who says, well, I saw this in or, I heard this on Gini’s podcast, and you don’t know what they’re talking about. Like you have to be ahead of all of them. And so because of that, we have twice a month internal learning. And I think taking that down a level, and honestly truly, I would actually say that the younger professionals are better at the PESO Model certification outputs than I would say some of the more senior level professionals. Because they don’t have preconceived notions, they don’t have, oh, this is the way I’ve always done things. Right. So they’re much more, they absorb the information better and they output the expected outputs much more effectively, I think. But you know, if you don’t have that kind of training internally, like, how are you teaching them intellectual property and how are you teaching them your processes? And like everybody has a different way of doing work for clients. How are you teaching that so that when they go into AI to get the output they need, they understand this is the output I’m trying to get and this is what it looks like. I think those are the things we have to be thinking about is our intellectual property, our unique way of doing things, and our process. That’s the kinds of things you can be teaching to young professionals. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look to your point, I think that to the extent that agencies are doing, you know, training and development type things, most of it is focused on the how you do your job bit, right? Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: So you know, how, how do you implement the PESO model? How do you communicate effectively with the press? How do you, you know, write effectively? Those are the kinds of things that most agencies have spent at least some time on. Maybe not enough, but at least some. But it’s, but as you back into the, the things that you’ve also mentioned, processes, you know, tho those are things that don’t get the same level of attention in the training and in the professional development. And then when you get back from that and you’re looking at things like project management or just basic human management, those are not things that have any amount of investment in the vast majority of agencies. And it’s, you know, it’s always shocking to me how many times I go into an agency, you know, for one of my Agency Business Checkups, and I sit there and I talk with them and I understand they’re not doing the regular one-on-one communications with direct reports. Wow. And I, and I know, I mean, this is, everybody knows, this is my pet peeve. Yes. But it is the fundamentals of management. How do you manage somebody if you’re not having regular, ongoing meetings with them? Right. It just, it doesn’t make any sense. But there’s, there’s no culture around that. There’s no culture around communications . And particularly as we’re moving into this era of AI, we need to be much better at documenting processes and, you know, all that because the more we document processes, the better results we can get from the technology, which makes the lives of all of the human employees better. And so we need to be focused on a lot of these things that maybe we could get by without doing in the past, and maybe it just, you know, it was a, a 10 or 15% efficiency hit or something like that. Now it just, it fundamentally just doesn’t work if you’re not focused on how to do these things effectively. So we really need to, again, at all levels, but particularly with those entry level hires, we need to groom them into the roles by providing them with those skill sets, providing them with the documentation around processes, and that’s how we’ll start to get better results more quickly. But that doesn’t really solve the question of how do we continue to hire entry level people at all? Why? Because there’s this big urge for people to say, look, that because AI is so good, we don’t even need entry level hires anymore. Yeah. And I mean, I am of the viewpoint that that is not accurate. That you can still hire people fresh outta college or with just a year or two of experience, but you’ve got to rethink what you’re thinking of them to do. Right. If you think of them in the old terms of doing just that routine, brute force labor. No, there is no role for that. But if you elevate it and you say, look, you know, these kids are coming in and they’ve got something to add, they’ve got value to offer. We just need to perhaps move them along faster in our minds than we might have otherwise. But in their world, they’re not, because they don’t, they didn’t grow up 30 years ago like we did in the industry, so you didn’t know what all of the photocopying and faxing was back then. So you’ve got to be open to putting them into roles that just blow your mind that this is an entry-level responsibility now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. And I think we have a responsibility as leaders to do that. Because to your point earlier, if we don’t, we’re not gonna have employees to hire at the mid-level and then at the senior level, and it’s going to be a disaster. So I think we have our responsibility as leaders to do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, but we, I mean, yes, we have a responsibility, but ultimately we also need to do what’s right for the business today. Gini Dietrich: Sure, of course. Chip Griffin: And so, so what the, what I think people need to do is to figure out how to bridge that gap. So that you can do what’s right for the business today, while also helping you for the long term. Because as, as much as we all sit here and we want to say, well, we’re doing right for the industry, we’re doing right for our business in three to five years. That’s not a reality that works for most people, particularly on the tight numbers that most smaller agencies are operating with. So, you know, we do need to find a way to make sure that we are getting what we need today from these, and they’re not, I don’t wanna say charity hires, but they’re not, they’re not viewed solely as investments. They have to be something that has the more near term payoff as well. Gini Dietrich: Sure, of course. Yeah. I don’t disagree with that. Chip Griffin: I think that does require a mindset shift for a lot of us who would never dream of, of handing off some of the responsibility that we’re now in a position of needing to hand off to people who have very little experience. But the more that you’ve established proper SOPs and you’ve put together the right systems for checking, verification, approval, et cetera, all of those things, it, you’re in a much better position. And honestly, the use of AI makes it easier to entrust more junior employees. I think a lot of people sit here and say, oh, you know, it’s scary ’cause now we’ve got, you know, junior people with no experience running the AI. Yes. But if as long as you are overseeing the training of the AI, then the AI tends to remain within its lane. The problem you run into with AI is when you don’t give it any guidelines, when you don’t give it any context, when you don’t give it the structure, that’s where it does things like hallucinate and, you know, engage in crazy behavior. But otherwise it does a much better job than humans of remaining within its lane. And so it can actually help the juniors to do their jobs more effectively without the level of risk that some of us may be concerned about. Gini Dietrich: And I will add to that, with your SOPs and your process. Although we talk all the time about building a business that you love and that works for you, there are still going to be some of you who want to sell your business. And having those SOPs in the process really well-defined is going to help your sell price significantly. Yes. Because if you can just hand them the recipe and say, this is how we do things, and this is how we’ve done things for years and it works, and these are the kinds of results, that’s going to help your sell price. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One hundred percent because then you’ve got a buyer who’s looking at something and they’re not just, you know, buying a client roster or short term revenue or something like that. They’re actually, you know, buying something that has sustainable value to it. And particularly in the age of AI, where those SOPs can then become the guidelines and guardrails for the AI tools to utilize. It really is a big differentiator, not just for your sales price, but for today, right? Because if you’ve, if you built those things in there, then you can be a leaner operation. Because the reality is we are going to accomplish more with fewer human headcount. That’s just going to happen. Probably not as efficient as some people dream it might be, but still more efficient than we are today. And so it gives you a lot of flexibility if you are in a position to feed the information and SOPs into the AI tools to get you where you want to go. So it will take a lot of pressure off of you as the owner today, and that opens up possibilities for your future, whether you want to sell or not. Gini Dietrich: Yep, totally. I’m a big fan of SOPs. Chip Griffin: I always have been a big fan of SOPs and checklists and those sorts of things. I think they, they can save your bacon. But you know, today they’re just, you can’t live without them, right? No, totally agree. Totally. They were nice to have process improvements 20 years ago. Today, if you don’t have them, you are really holding yourself back because you can’t use most of these tools capably without them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. 100%. Chip Griffin: So you’ve got to, you can’t fly by the seat of your pants anymore. It really needs that structure. Entry level hires need that structure. AI needs that structure. And if you’re going to have a successful agency for the future, you need to solve for this today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And truth be told, everyone in your agency needs that structured. Chip Griffin: Everybody. Absolutely. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, everyone does. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So don’t be afraid of entry level hires. Don’t decide that you’re not gonna hire them and just use the AI for it. Rethink what the role of an entry level hire is in your business because that will allow you to build both for today and for the future. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So with that, we will wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Ustadz Erwandi - Saat Menghadapi Ekonomi Sulit, Gini Caranya

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0En este episodio del podcast de Itnig hablamos con Amir Salihefendić, fundador de Doist, la compañía detrás de Todoist, sobre cómo se construye una empresa de software global durante casi 20 años sin levantar capital. Una conversación muy potente sobre producto, libertad, dinero, cultura y cómo cambia todo cuando la IA abarata construir software y acelera la competencia.Hablamos de cómo Todoist pasó de ser una simple app de tareas creada en 2007 a convertirse en una empresa con medio millón de clientes de pago y alrededor de 30 millones de ARR, de por qué Amir no vendería Doist ni por 1 billón, y de su idea de que hoy el verdadero moat ya no son tanto las features como la marca, la velocidad de adaptación y la capacidad de seguir construyendo algo con gusto y criterio.También entramos en cómo están rehaciendo su roadmap en la era de la IA, qué nuevos productos están construyendo, por qué creen que la comunicación interna sigue mal resuelta, cómo usan varios modelos para revisar código, y por qué siguen apostando por un modelo remote-first, asíncrono y bootstrap, aunque con una visión muy clara de sus límites, especialmente para perfiles junior.Y al final también hay espacio para la historia personal de Amir: salir de Bosnia por la guerra, crecer en Dinamarca, pasar por Start-Up Chile, conocer allí a su mujer y acabar construyendo una empresa global desde fuera del guión típico de Silicon Valley.

Most agency owners spend a lot of time thinking about growth, clients, and revenue. Far fewer think carefully about the words that define how they actually operate their businesses. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into five of those words: leadership, management, accountability, responsibility, and authority. Leadership and management aren’t the same thing. Leadership is about vision and getting people to follow you. Management is about making the work happen. Knowing which one you’re stronger at is the first step toward building a team that covers your gaps. Accountability is the wrong place to start when a team member isn’t delivering. You can’t hold someone accountable for something you never clearly assigned, and you can’t hold them accountable if you didn’t give them the authority to get it done. Gini offers a useful comparison: when a client hires you for your expertise and then second-guesses every decision, it’s demoralizing. That’s exactly how your team feels when you delegate the work but not the authority to do it. The episode closes with a simple reminder. If you want more freedom as an owner, you have to be willing to actually let go. And if your team isn’t capable of handling more responsibility, you should be asking yourself why you hired them. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You can’t really have accountability without the other two things. You can’t go and hold an employee accountable for something that you never told them that they had to do to begin with.” Gini Dietrich: “I think we are all guilty of thinking that management is, oh, we get to boss people around and tell people what to do.” Chip Griffin: “If I want to hold an employee accountable for profitability on something, or for results on a client project, I actually need to give them the responsibility and authority to do what they need to do in order to get that.” Gini Dietrich: “When you try to control everything, when you don’t delegate effectively, when you don’t give your team the authority and responsibility to do their jobs effectively, you are creating an environment that’s not fun to work in.” Turn ideas into action Write down who owns what. Pick three ongoing projects or responsibilities in your agency and write one name next to each. If you can’t, or if the answer is “everyone,” that’s the problem to solve first. Audit one recent accountability failure. Think of the last time a team member didn’t deliver on something. Ask honestly: did they have clear responsibility for it, and did they have the authority to get it done without coming back to you for approvals? Identify the specific gap. Read Chip’s two-part newsletter series on these five words. They cover the concepts in more depth than a single conversation allows. Then write the five words on a post-it and put it somewhere you’ll actually see it. Related 5 words critical to agency management success (part 1) 5 words critical to agency management success (part 2) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, I’ve got, uh, I’ve got five words today, and that’s it. And then we’re outta here. Gini Dietrich: F…U… Chip Griffin: Words, not letters! No, we’ve already used more than five words, so. Gini Dietrich: Yep. No, Chip Griffin: I guess Gini Dietrich: you wrote about this. Chip Griffin: I guess we’re probably gonna need to come up with more than five words for this episode. Gini Dietrich: We’re, we should probably come up with several words for each of the five words, but you wrote about this and I thought it was really good. So we’re gonna talk about it. Chip Griffin: Yeah, last fall, as I was sitting there looking for inspiration for my newsletter, I started thinking about some of the language that I frequently use when I’m talking with agency owners. And so it became a two-part series in the SAGA newsletter, about five words that are critical to agency management success. And so, why not talk about them here? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think they’re really good. Chip Griffin: We’re always looking for ideas. Might as well pick something that we actually did a little work on. Gini Dietrich: Right. For a change. Chip Griffin: For a change. Gini Dietrich: We’ve got like four weeks in a row where we’ve done a little work. Chip Griffin: I mean, this is, I… dear listeners, please do not get used to this. We are not going to, you know, have actual prepared thoughts in advance of every episode. We just, we cannot handle that. A lot of it just needs to be off the cuff with us reacting to whatever randomly comes to mind in the seconds before I hit record. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: But this week we can tap into a little bit more depth. Last week, I mean, last week we did a lot of research for episode 300. Gini Dietrich: We did. We spent like days on that. It was a year’s worth of content. Chip Griffin: We did research, we brought AI into it. We started reading through past, I mean Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Yep. Chip Griffin: It was, it was truly exhausting, so Gini Dietrich: it was exhausting. I’m still recovering. Chip Griffin: Fortunately this is work that was already done. We’re just retapping into it. So, those five words that we’re going to be talking about today are leadership, management, accountability, responsibility, and authority. And we’re really looking at this through the lens of management of your business. So there’s a lot of other things that have to do with agencies where we can come up with other words perhaps, or other context for these words. But this is really about how you manage the business, how you work with your team, how you work with clients, and all that sort of thing. And that was really what I was trying to get at here when I was trying to drill into these particular concepts. Gini Dietrich: I think the first two leadership and management are really good ones because I think we are all guilty of thinking that management is, oh, we get to boss people around and tell people what to do and, you know, go on about our days. And, I think we also confuse leadership and management. And so I think a good place to start is definitely there, which you did too, because it’s part one of your series. Chip Griffin: I did, I thought those were, yeah, those were big important concepts to get squared away before you get into some of the ones that, you know, later on in the list are, are a little bit more nitty gritty. And really about the functional aspect of it. When you’re thinking about leadership and management, you really have to think about it in my view in, in a couple of different ways and, leadership is more getting people who are willing and interested in following you somewhere. Right? It is, it is defining a path and convincing people, whether that’s prospects that you’re trying to get to become clients or team members who you’re getting to work together. It really is, it’s more about, you know, the ideas and the communication around it and the motivation of people that comes together. Management then becomes more about resources and, you know, and more of the, in the management of it to… management’s more about management. How’s that for…there is a limit how much we prepare for these things. It’s not like I have clear talking points. Gini Dietrich: I would say management’s more in weeds. So like, if I were thinking about it from my, my agency’s perspective. I tend to be more of the leader, so I’m vision, visionary, I’m setting the stage, I’m talking about where we’re going. And then Shelly, who is our chief operating Officer, she’s doing like standard operating procedures. She’s creating process, she’s creating procedures. She’s created an intranet where you get where you get out. Like that stuff to me, I would shoot myself in the head if I had to do that stuff. But she’s really, really good at it and she’s really good at creating the process. Like these are the things, this is how we do our work. And so she allows me to focus on what I’m good at, and I, and then, and she in turn gets to focus on what she’s good at. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And that, and that CEO-COO split is, is a good, you know, sort of simple way of thinking about the difference in leadership and management. It’s not a hundred percent sure, but it’s, it gets you most of the way there in, in how you think it through. I do think that almost all managers at every level need a little bit of both. Yeah, you can’t totally, even if you are a relatively junior manager. If you’ve got anybody reporting to you or you’re managing a project, you still need to have some of the leadership there in addition to the management. So, but they are, they’re really important things to have. They are different things, but you need to be, in order to be successful as an agency business, you need to have both of these in robust amounts within the business. Otherwise, you’ll be rudderless, you’ll be profitless, and you probably won’t be generating results for your clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s, I mean, I personally believe that you’re, you have strengths in one or the other. You can probably do both. Like I can manage the business. I don’t love it, so I’m not great at it. I procrastinate, I can do it. But that’s why I hired somebody to manage those kinds of things. Because I know how important it is. And, but if you can’t, if you don’t, like for many, many years I couldn’t afford to hire a COO. Right? And the business wasn’t big enough to have a COO, right? So what we did instead is we made it part of everybody’s job where I said, okay. As you’re doing this work, I need you to create a standard operating procedure. I need you to jot down the process. And some were great at it and some not so great at it. So we had some that were good and some weren’t. But I will tell you, AI today helps immensely with that. We use Scribe now, I think Scribe now, or Scribe how? One of the two. And it like creates the SOP for you while you do the work, so you just let it capture your screen. So there are lots of ways that you can do both. You can both be a manager and a leader, even if it’s not one of those is not a strength. Chip Griffin: Well look, and at some level we’re all managers, right? Sure. Even if we are a solo and we don’t have any clients or we are just writing a book or something like that. Yep. And just kind of doing it in isolation. Hard to do. But if you, even if you were that, you still need to have a level of management in the activity that you, yourself are doing. So, you know, none of us can give up on that completely. I think it’s really more thinking about the layers of management, and how deep you go. So, you know, there are people who are, you know, pretty good at what I would call executive management. You know, figuring out big picture, what are the, what are the general things that we need to be working on and, you know, providing the rails within which you work and operate. Then there are other people who can make the trains run on time. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I am very much the former, not the latter. If you want someone to make the trains run on time, I’m way too all over the place with too many different ideas in order to do that effectively. And so, you know, and you have to understand as an individual and as a manager, what are your strengths in these areas? Because if you don’t understand that you are a better leader than manager, you don’t know what to shore up in terms of the team or what things to work on yourself or what safeguards you need to put into place to make sure that you’re not ignoring the important stuff. So like for me, since I’m not great at making trains run on time, I use a lot of software to try to make sure that I record all the little things and put the deadlines in so that I don’t sit there a week later and say, oh, right, I was supposed to file my taxes last week. I guess I should have done that. Right. So you’ve gotta have the systems in place to buffer yourself against the things that you’re not particularly good at to begin with. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Which I think is a really nice lead to accountability, which was your third word. Like we have to…it’s sort of like, you know, people will say to me all the time, gosh, I wish I was as disciplined as you are about exercise. The reason I’m as disciplined as I am is because I have accountability partners. Like if I, there are plenty of mornings where the alarm goes off and I just wanna roll over and go back to sleep for an hour and a half. But I have somebody counting on me, either my coach or somebody that’s waiting for me at the gym or whatever it happens to be. I have the accountability and that’s part of the reason I’m so, so disciplined. And I think we have to take that into our business as well. So even if you don’t have a team that can hold you accountable, there are plenty of resources. You know, there’s Slack communities, the Solo PR Pro community, the Spin Sucks community, the SAGA community on Slack. I think you can hire a coach. Like there are lots of things that you can do to hold yourself accountable. But I think that to your point, is a really good lead-in from leadership and management. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, the reason why I ended up writing about this over two weeks in my newsletter was not just because it was getting long. It was. Gini Dietrich: It was, sure. Chip Griffin: But, also because leadership and management really do fit together. But then the other three, accountability, responsibility, and authority come together, in important ways. And, and one of the things that I have found with a lot of agency owners, when I talk to them about their teams, they’ll ask me, you know, how can I hold my team more accountable for the results that I need for them? And it usually then evolves into a conversation about accountability, responsibility, and authority. Because you can’t really have accountability without the other two things. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so they, they all are very much interconnected. And if you want to achieve results, particularly with your team, you need to think about how you mix these together. Because look, I mean, employees. Sometimes I say that employees and clients are a little bit like children as far as how you have to coach them and get them to move in a particular direction. But they’re different from kids and, I mean, you can’t just take an employee and put ’em in timeout or send them to their room. I mean, that’s Gini Dietrich: Unfortunately not, no. Chip Griffin: You know, you can try it. It’s, it’s not gonna work out. Gini Dietrich: It’s probably not gonna work. Yeah. Chip Griffin: So honestly, it doesn’t work all that well with kids either. But, you know, sometimes it makes you feel better. You know, my kids are way too old to be sent to their rooms now, so. It is what it is. But when they were little, you, you kind of liked doing that occasionally at least, but you knew it was really never gonna solve anything. It just got them outta your hair for a bit. So, but with employees, you need to think about this because usually accountability is the last place that you go to in order to solve a team problem. You really need to look at responsibility and authority first. Because you can only be accountable if you’ve been given responsibility for something, right? Right. So you can’t go and hold an employee accountable for something that you never told them that they had to do to begin with. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And that doesn’t mean you need to tell ’em every little detail, right? But you, they’ve got to understand that this is a task or a project for which they are responsible. And one of the things I always say to people, and I’m not original in this, but you can’t have more than one person who is truly responsible for a task or project. Because as soon as two people share responsibility equally, it ain’t gonna happen. It’s just human nature, everybody kind of assumes someone else will pick up the slack. Gini Dietrich: It’s like a group project. Yep. Chip Griffin: So you’ve gotta be clear who has responsibility for this, who is walking outta this meeting with responsibility to get it done. So you start there and then you can start thinking about accountability. But, only if when you give them responsibility, you also give them authority, because this one I see all the time. You assign an employee something, you wanna hold them accountable. Because well, I, I, I told Sally that Sally was responsible for getting this done. But you didn’t give Sally the authority to go and get the resources she needed or to give the approvals herself. You kept all of that to yourself, and so Sally wasn’t able to actually get the job done because Sally was too dependent upon you. So if you want to hold somebody accountable, you’ve got to give them responsibility and authority to get the job done. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, 100%. You know, one of the things that we do internally here is objectives and key results. And so the leadership team will develop, we develop the company ones as a group, and then they develop their team ones. And then they are responsible for having their teams fill in their own. And so that practice alone has been really great from the perspective of helping everybody understand what they’re accountable for. So even if you’re a team of two people, you can still do that, right? Like it’s, and you don’t have to use OKRs, you can use KPIs, you can use whatever kinds of goal setting you prefer. But the practice of setting the goal and helping everybody understand who’s responsible for what, I think is a, it does that. Then of course you have to execute, right? But that’s where the accountability and responsibility comes in. But I think going through the practice of building those goals together really helps build that accountability. So people know, okay, this is what I’m responsible for. This is what so-and-so’s responsible for. This is what happens if I don’t do my job. And they won’t be able to do their part of the job. So it kind of helps them understand how all of the trains work together. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And as agency leaders and managers, we think about this in client terms all the time, right? We sit there and we say, well, you know, the client wants us to do these things, but they haven’t given us the ability to make decisions around this. Or they haven’t given us the appropriate budget for something. Or they want us to have an impact on sales, but we can’t even talk to the sales team or whatever it might be. So we think about this naturally. All the time with our clients, and we chafe against the restrictions that our clients put in place, but we don’t think twice about putting those same handcuffs on our own employees. And so we need to be thoughtful about that and say, look, if I wanna hold an employee accountable for profitability on something, or for results on a client project, or for leads that they’re generating for the agency, then I actually need to give them the responsibility and authority to do what they need to do in order to get that. Otherwise, I have no business holding them accountable for something that I haven’t given them the flexibility to achieve. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. I think it’s just such a good practice in general, to think about that. And, you’re right, like the shoemaker’s children don’t have shoes. You know, we don’t, we don’t have great websites. We don’t have great content. We don’t have great thought leadership. We don’t do any planning for ourselves. We sort of just wait for the phone to ring, to drive new business. All of the things that we would never do for our clients, like we plan for our clients. We set goals, we measure results, we do all those things. That practice has to make it to your business as well, because if it doesn’t, you don’t have all of these things. You don’t have accountability and responsibility and leadership and management. You don’t have the ability to run a well-functioning, profitable business. You have to do those kinds of things just like you do for your clients. Chip Griffin: Well, and the thing is, if we adhere to these various guidelines that these five words bring to mind, it improves not just the business of the agency, but generally the lives of the agency owner. And as we all know, I’m obsessed with trying to make owners happy in what they do and not just yes, you know, sitting there and feeling tortured by their own business that they decided to create. And so a lot of these things get things off of your plate. It shares the responsibility and accountability across your team. But only if you’re willing to let go, you have to be willing to let go. And we talk all the time about the value in delegating things and all that. But, it really comes down to thinking about not just that I’ve delegated something, but that I’ve done it in a way that sets that team member up for success. And if you’re delegating responsibility and authority, that should allow you to have more freedom and to spend your time differently. Now, if you assign those things, but you’re not really giving it and you’re just micromanaging. What’s the point? That doesn’t help the employee. It doesn’t help you. It doesn’t help the business. So really think about these concepts and how you can internalize them to what the way that you are managing your business, and you’re more likely to see the results that you’re looking for, that your team wants, and ultimately that the clients want as well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, one of the things that I think is really important for agency owners to understand is that when you try to control everything, when you don’t delegate effectively, when you don’t give your team the authority and responsibility to do their jobs effectively, you are creating an environment that’s not fun to work in. It’s not gonna be fun for your team, and it’s not gonna be fun for you. And one of the things I think that’s really easy for agency owners to, to understand is to put themselves in the shoes. So let’s say that you’re working with a client and they’ve hired you because of your expertise, and you’re really, really good at website development, let’s say. Like really good at it. You understand how AI visibility works. You understand how that fits with SEO, you understand how that works with user experience and website design, like you’re one of the best at this. But the client keeps saying, no, I think you’re wrong, or I don’t wanna do it that way, or, and they don’t take your advice and they don’t use your expertise. They keep talking over you. Or they say like, well, I asked AI and it told me this, and so you’re wrong. How does that make you feel? It doesn’t feel good. That’s how your team feels when you don’t delegate and give them the authority and the responsibility that they deserve to be able to help you grow the business. That’s how they feel, and I think we can all put ourselves in those shoes to understand that doesn’t feel very good at all. So if you’ve hired the right people and they have an expertise to be able to help you grow the business, let them do their jobs. Chip Griffin: And, if they still can’t, then you need to look at a different team, right? Correct. I mean that, yes. You know, because when I talk with owners, a lot of times says, well, so and so isn’t capable of it. Well, who hired so and so? Right? I mean, you did. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: You made that decision. Mm-hmm. You can undo that decision. You can make a better decision next time. Mm-hmm. But you can’t sit here and say that you need to micromanage them because they’re not up to the task. Either they are and you can let go or they’re not, and you need to find a different solution. And usually, if an owner is honest with themselves and they sit down, more often than not, they realize that they can let go more than they thought. Again, we’ve said before it, it may be that they don’t do it exactly the same way that you would do it. It may not be as perfect as you would do it. Not that we’re saying you’re perfect, but you know, you may think you are. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And so if, if those are things that, that are getting in your way, figure out how to move past them. Because you, you really have to focus on making sure that you’re getting good enough and not perfection, not identical to the way you do it. Because if you do, you’ll never be able to hire anybody and you’ll never be able to delegate and you’ll never be able to live these five words. Because they really, when you think about the list that I put together, it starts from sort of the highest level, the 30,000 foot, the leadership, getting people to follow you, all the way down to that core level of the delegation of authority to get things done across your team. And you really need all of those elements to come together. Yep. If you wanna be sane, happy, and get the results that you want. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yes. So I know Jen will link to both parts of this. I thought it was really, really well done. So you can read that as an accompaniment and have it as a reminder. Just put it on a post-it. Put those five words on a post-it note, stick ’em to your screen. Chip Griffin: Perfect. Excellent. Well, I hopefully these five words, we gave you more than five words, but we gave you five words… Gini Dietrich: Okay. That’s enough. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Okay. My usual, tortured ending. So. With that, I will delegate the authority to all of you to get on with your days. And, the responsibility to that was live these five words and Okay. We’re, we’re just gonna stop. Okay. With that. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0En esta nueva tertulia de Itnig nos metemos de lleno en uno de los debates más calientes del momento: si estamos viviendo una nueva era de hype tecnológico o si, esta vez, las valoraciones gigantes de compañías como OpenAI, Anthropic o SpaceX sí tienen una lógica real detrás. A lo largo del episodio hablamos de IPOs, rondas privadas, estructuras de inversión, liquidity events, clases de acciones y cómo interpreta el mercado este nuevo ciclo de compañías que parecen aspirar a valer cientos de miles de millones o incluso más. La conversación también entra en cómo ha cambiado el mundo startup y venture capital en los últimos años: desde el exceso de financiación y los layoffs, hasta la presión por la eficiencia, el efecto reputacional de levantar rondas grandes y la diferencia entre crear valor real y construir narrativa.Además, aparece un tema especialmente interesante, cómo algunas startups están usando distribución, marketing y canales directos para montar negocios enormes en verticales aparentemente simples, con ejemplos que van desde salud y pérdida de peso hasta nuevos formatos de internet y media. Una parte muy potente del episodio gira alrededor de Anthropic vs OpenAI: qué significan realmente métricas como los tokens, cómo se están valorando estas compañías, qué papel juegan Microsoft, Amazon o la infraestructura detrás del boom de la IA, y si el mercado está premiando tecnología real o simplemente storytelling. También se debate sobre seguridad, open source, vulnerabilidades de software, el riesgo de centralización y la capacidad de estos modelos para encontrar fallos críticos en sistemas reales. Y como buena tertulia de Itnig, el episodio no se queda solo en números: también hay espacio para hablar de podcasts, new media, adquisiciones estratégicas, independencia editorial, Sam Altman, poder, reputación y confianza en una industria donde cada movimiento tiene implicaciones enormes. Un episodio para cualquiera que quiera entender mejor qué está pasando de verdad en el cruce entre IA, startups, venture capital, big tech y mercados.

Student Jodie Morrow talks to Nuala McGovern about her ordeal of being arrested after her stalker falsely accused her of stalking him. He has now been jailed after pleading guilty to harassment and perverting the course of justice, and the Police Service of Northern Ireland has acknowledged "shortcomings" in how the case was handled. Jodie is now helping the police to try to improve how they handle stalking cases.The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Endometriosis is launching an Inquiry into endometriosis and the workplace. The inquiry follows the latest data from Endometriosis UK showing it takes on average nine years and four months for diagnosis of endometriosis in the UK, a statistic that hasn't improved in over a decade. Labour MP Kirsteen Sullivan, who chairs the inquiry, and Bethan Allen, who has the condition, discuss how this can be improved and what employers should do to support sufferers.If you're in your 50s and feeling as though the workplace is quietly moving on without you, overlooked or pushed out, you're not alone. Author Lucy Standing argues that this could in fact be the most powerful decade of your working life, if you rethink how a career should look. And Eleanor Mills, who runs a website for midlife women, or “Queenagers” as she calls them, argues this period of life is not about decline, but about being on the cusp of something transformative. Each year egg donation enables between 2,000 and 3,000 women to have children who otherwise wouldn't be able to. One woman, Gini Bhogal, helped someone in this way after donating her eggs to a woman she met randomly on a London Tube. It began on a crowded carriage in the early 90s, and when she spoke about it on social media she says the reaction was overwhelming. Gini and Christopher, the child born from that donation, explain how he came to be conceived and how he found out about his origins.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Melanie Abbott

We're joined by Ian Morris, British historian, archaeologist, and author of Foragers, Farmers, and Fossil Fuels Ian's central argument is both simple and radical: our beliefs about fairness, justice, hierarchy, equality, and even democracy are not timeless moral truths floating above history. They are shaped, constrained, and repeatedly reorganised by the ways societies extract and use energy. Across tens of thousands of years, he argues, there is a pattern beneath the chaos.   We dive into: • Why hunter-gatherer societies tended to enforce radical egalitarianism • How agriculture made hierarchy, inheritance, patriarchy, and forced labor more functional • Why fossil fuel societies unexpectedly shifted back toward equality and democracy • How values evolve like adaptations to changing material conditions • Why the industrial age expanded the moral community • Why inequality has begun rising again in recent decades • Whether we are entering a fourth great shift in human values • What energy transitions, AI, and new technologies could mean for democracy and civilisation   Key Takeaways from the Episode: 1. Human Values Are Not Fixed — They Adapt to Energy Systems Morris argues that values are not random, but nor are they eternal. Over the long run, societies repeatedly develop moral systems that fit the material conditions created by how they capture energy from the world. This is not a metaphor. Morris means it in a nearly biological sense: values that match the prevailing energy regime help societies function, grow, and outcompete their neighbours — while mismatched values lead to stagnation, fragmentation, or collapse. The mechanism is cultural evolution, operating on a civilisational timescale. A foraging band that tried to enforce agrarian-style kingship would fall apart. An industrial economy run on feudal principles would be outproduced by its rivals. Morris draws on decades of archaeological and anthropological data — compiled in his earlier work Why the West Rules — for Now — to show that this pattern holds across every major region and epoch. The implication is unsettling: the values we consider timeless may be temporary artefacts of the energy system we happen to inhabit. 2. Hunter-Gatherer Life Favoured Equality In low-energy societies, people lived in small, mobile groups with little surplus and little material inheritance. Under those conditions, strong egalitarian norms were not idealistic luxuries — they were necessary for survival and cohesion. Morris draws on ethnographic evidence from groups like the Kung San of the Kalahari and the Hadza of Tanzania to show that foraging bands actively enforced equality through what Christopher Boehm calls “reverse dominance hierarchies” — systems in which the group collectively suppresses anyone who tries to accumulate too much power or prestige. The tools were social: ridicule, gossip, ostracism, and in extreme cases, targeted violence. This was not paradise. Per capita rates of violent death among foragers were far higher than in modern states. But it was a system that worked under the constraints of low energy capture. When you cannot store surplus, when anyone can walk away from the group, when survival depends on mutual cooperation, radical equality is not a philosophy — it is an engineering requirement. 3. Agriculture Made Inequality Functional Once farming emerged, people settled, accumulated land, inherited property, and built larger social structures. In that world, hierarchy, patriarchy, kingship, and coercive labour became easier to justify and more useful for organising society. Morris is careful to frame this not as moral decline but as adaptive reorganisation. Agrarian societies that developed clear lines of inheritance, centralised leadership, and mechanisms for extracting surplus labour — whether through serfdom, taxation, or slavery — were able to build irrigation systems, raise armies, and defend territory more effectively than those that did not. The Gini coefficients of agrarian civilisations, from ancient Rome to Qing Dynasty China, consistently clustered between 0.40 and 0.60 — far higher than anything observed in foraging societies. Patriarchy, too, became structurally embedded: when wealth flows through land and land flows through lineage, control of reproduction becomes an economic imperative. As Morris puts it, agrarian societies did not choose hierarchy because they were morally inferior. They chose it — or more precisely, it chose them — because it was the value system that worked at that scale of energy capture. 4. Industrialisation Reversed the Pattern The fossil fuel age created such a dramatic expansion in energy capture that it supported a return toward broader equality. Democracy, women's rights, religious tolerance, and mass political participation became more functional in industrial societies than they had been in agrarian ones. The scale of the shift is difficult to overstate. Drawing on the data compiled in his Social Development Index, Morris shows that Western economies went from capturing roughly 38,000 kilocalories per person per day in 1800 to 230,000 by the 1970s. This explosion of productive capacity required a workforce that was literate, mobile, and motivated — not coerced. Slavery became economically irrational when a free worker operating a power loom could outproduce a plantation of forced labourers. The franchise expanded because industrial states needed buy-in from the populations whose labour and consumption drove growth. The period between 1945 and 1975 — what economists call the Great Compression — saw inequality fall to historic lows across the industrialised world, a pattern Morris attributes directly to the structural demands of fossil-fuel economies rather than to moral awakening alone. 5. Moral Progress May Be Less Moral Than We Think One of the most provocative ideas in the conversation is that what we call moral progress may often be adaptation. Values spread not simply because they are truer or nobler, but because they work better under new productive conditions. Morris is not arguing that moral reasoning is meaningless — he acknowledges the role of philosophers, activists, and reformers in articulating new ethical frameworks. But he insists that these frameworks gain traction only when the material conditions are right. The abolition of slavery is his sharpest example: anti-slavery arguments had existed since antiquity, from Stoic philosophers to medieval theologians. They gained no lasting foothold until the fossil fuel revolution made free industrial labour more productive than coerced agricultural labour. In this reading, the abolitionists were morally right — but they succeeded because the energy regime had shifted in their favour. The danger in this insight, as Princeton philosopher Christine Korsgaard argues in her response to Morris's Tanner Lectures, is that it can erode our confidence in the permanence of our own moral achievements. If democracy rose with fossil fuels, what happens when fossil fuels decline? 6. The Last 40 Years May Mark the Start of a New Shift Morris suggests the egalitarian arc of the fossil fuel age may be weakening. Since the late 20th century, rising inequality and growing acceptance of concentrated power may signal the beginnings of a fourth great transformation in values. The data supports the concern. According to the World Inequality Database, the share of national income captured by the top one per cent in the United States roughly doubled between 1980 and 2020, returning to levels last seen before the Great Depression. Freedom House has documented eighteen consecutive years of global democratic decline. Morris interprets these trends not as policy failures to be corrected but as potential symptoms of a deeper structural shift: as economies move from mass industrial production toward automation, platform monopolies, and AI-driven services, the number of people whose active participation is economically essential may be shrinking. If the fossil fuel age favoured equality because it needed mass labour and mass consumption, an age of intelligent machines may not. The egalitarian values we assumed were permanent may have been contingent on a phase of industrial development that is now passing. 7. Energy Abundance Does Not Automatically Create Equality Cases like Qatar and other resource-rich states show that energy alone is not enough. The social context into which new energy arrives matters enormously; pre-existing structures can allow elites to monopolise wealth and preserve hierarchy. Qatar holds the fourth-highest GDP per capita in the world, yet ranks near the bottom of the V-Dem Electoral Democracy Index. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kuwait, and Brunei tell similar stories: vast energy wealth, minimal democratic development. Morris argues this is not a contradiction of his thesis but a refinement. What matters is not merely how much energy a society captures, but how many people must participate in capturing it. In industrial economies, millions of workers were needed — creating structural pressure for education, wages, and political rights. In petrostates, a tiny elite controls extraction, distributes revenue as patronage, and faces no structural need to empower the broader population. The lesson is critical for understanding the current energy transition: if the next energy regime — whether solar, nuclear, or AI-driven — can be controlled by a narrow class of technologists and capital owners, the democratic dividend may not follow. 8. The Future May Be a Contest Between Democratic and Authoritarian Models As energy systems, technology, and AI evolve, Morris sees a real competitive struggle ahead between more egalitarian democratic societies and more centralised, authoritarian ones. The question is not only what kind of world we want — but which kind will prove more effective. Democracy's advantages are significant: distributed innovation, self-correcting institutions, the ability to attract global talent through individual freedom. But authoritarian systems have their own competitive strengths, particularly in an age of AI-enabled surveillance and rapid state-directed investment. China's ability to mobilise resources for infrastructure, energy, and technology development without electoral friction presents a genuine challenge to the democratic model. Morris draws on the framework laid out by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson in Why Nations Fail — the contest between inclusive and extractive institutions — but adds an energy dimension: the outcome may depend less on which system we prefer and more on which system the next energy regime structurally favours. If renewable energy is distributed and requires broad participation, democracy may thrive. If AI and automation concentrate power, authoritarianism may prove more durable than we hope. Timestamps: (00:00) – Introduction to Ian Morris and the core thesis of Foragers, Farmers, and Fossil Fuels (01:00) – Why values are not random: the pattern across history (02:10) – Hunter-gatherers, equality, and the logic of low-energy societies (03:10) – Agriculture, hierarchy, kingship, and why inequality became moralized (06:00) – Energy capture as the hidden driver of value systems (09:10) – Why farming societies relied on inheritance, patriarchy, and force (15:20) – Rousseau, Hobbes, and why both misunderstood early humans (17:20) – Cultural evolution and how values adapt like biological traits (21:20) – Why fossil fuel societies moved back toward equality (28:20) – Factory labor, capitalism, and the widening of the moral community (34:20) – Are we now moving into a fourth great shift? (36:20) – Inequality, EROI, and the current energy transition (38:00) – Why Morris thinks we are still early in a new energy revolution (44:00) – Elon Musk, elite power, and why democracy is being questioned again (46:10) – Oil-rich states, Qatar, and why history still matters (54:40) – What readers should take from the book for navigating the future (56:00) – China, democracy, and the coming civilizational competition

Eight years and 300 episodes later, Chip and Gini take stock of what the Agency Leadership Podcast has actually been about and where their thinking has shifted since they sat down for lunch outside Wrigley Field and decided to start a show. Chip shares an AI-generated analysis of the 10 most common themes across 300 episodes. Gini distills them into four she considers non-negotiable: communication fixes most problems, know your numbers, focus on particular wins, and the owner sets the temperature. Chip adds that communication doesn’t just solve problems, it prevents them. Ironic, given that probably everyone listening is in the communications business. On what’s changed, Gini has moved from annual retainer-focused planning to quarterly reviews that constantly show results and surface what’s working. She also notes that her advice for navigating a tough business environment now mirrors what worked during the pandemic: find the project work, start with an assessment, and build trust before building a retainer. The biggest evolution for Chip is his position on AI. While he was skeptical a few years ago about the timeline, now he thinks agencies are under-emphasizing it. He and Gini disagree on AI’s limits. Gini believes critical thinking, emotional intelligence, and crisis work still require human judgment. Chip is less certain those guardrails will hold. What they do agree on: AI is turning everyone into a manager, and that puts a premium on skills that were already in short supply. The episode closes with a lightning round covering worst advice agencies still believe, best scary decisions, and prospect red flags including unreasonable expectations and unwillingness to discuss budget. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Communication doesn’t just solve problems. It prevents a lot of problems. And the irony is, we are all in communications in some fashion or another — and yet we often do a very poor job of it ourselves.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is not going to replace you, but people who know how to use AI effectively will. Those are the things that you have to be thinking about — how do you use it to enhance the work that you’re doing for clients and train your team to do the same.” Chip Griffin: “It’s turning everybody into managers. Even if you were not a manager before, you are now being forced to manage the AI effectively as an employee. And it puts a premium on management skills, which we know is a large area of weakness for most small agencies in general, even before the era of AI.” Gini Dietrich: “I’ve evolved on some things — like growth from more clients to better clients. From hiring the best to building systems and process. Eight years ago if you told me I had to build process, I would not have liked it, but now I understand the importance and value.” Related The six biggest PR business mistakes I've made Don't repeat my biggest mistakes as an agency owner View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it turns out it’s not just another episode, Gini Dietrich: it’s not! Chip Griffin: Of this podcast. Gini Dietrich: It’s very exciting! Chip Griffin: Through the magic of counting, we believe as best, best we can tell Gini Dietrich: We believe, we think Chip Griffin: According to our producer, Jen, that this is episode 300. And so we’re going with it. We’re gonna stamp it and say, this is the 300th episode of this podcast. Gini Dietrich: A big accomplishment. Remember we sat across from at a restaurant across from Wrigley Field and talked about doing this, and here we are. Chip Griffin: I, yeah, that was what, seven, eight years ago now? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Pre pandemic, for sure. Chip Griffin: Long, long time ago. Yeah. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: I had hair back. No, I didn’t have hair back then. Gini Dietrich: No, you did not. Chip Griffin: Still bald, but, but yeah. Who, who would’ve imagined it would still be going Yeah. This many years later. I mean, it’s crazy. You know, we’re no FIR, you know, we’re not up to episode 4,722 or whatever, whatever Shel and Neville are up to. But, nevertheless, it is an accomplishment. And so we thought we would recognize this milestone and maybe do a little bit of reflection on those 300 episodes. Gini Dietrich: So we were joking with one another that this is probably the most prepared we’ve ever come for one of these episodes. We actually put some, Chip Griffin: I’m fairly certain it is the most prepared. We’ve actually exchanged a few emails. We did a little research. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes, yes. Chip Griffin: We’ve got Claude involved with it. I mean, we’ve, we’ve put some effort into this one. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So I think what we both were looking at is a couple of things. One, sort of what has shifted over 300 episodes, which is several years. Right. And we have had many things happen during that time, including a complete shutdown. Where many agencies, if… Didn’t go out of business, got very, very close, myself included. It was a rough time. So a lot has changed. And so we wanna talk about that. We wanna talk about sort of where our own thinking has shifted over the years, especially around AI and some certain things. And then at the end, we’ll do a lightning round. Chip Griffin: Excellent. Well, maybe we can start with some of the things that we’ve talked about a lot over the course of those 300 episodes and, and being, you know, lazy, efficient, whatever you wanna call it, I decided to ask my Microchip assistant, which is backed in part by Claude to assess the episodes that we’ve already done and find the common themes that we talk about a lot. And so there were 10 common themes, and I’ll run through them quickly and then maybe we can react to a few of them, but, not surprisingly, the first one is the importance of good communications. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I think we do talk about that one a lot. Um, Understanding your financials, obviously we beat that one to death. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: One-to-one meetings, obviously. That is, that is my, Gini Dietrich: yep. Chip Griffin: My pet project to try to get every manager to have one-on-ones with every single one of their direct reports every week. Pricing and positioning, obviously that’s a common topic, not just for us, but everybody in this space. So that one’s not particularly surprising. It always depends, right? That is how we sign off. That should have been top of the list though. It should have been number one. That’s, that’s my biggest issue with, with this Microchip analysis that, it depends, it doesn’t prioritize at top of the list. Build to own, obviously something that I talk about a lot in various forms. Well, haven’t done a good job of always, you know, branding it as such, but focused on that. Talking about the agency owner modeling behavior and that everybody takes their cues. When we talk about agency culture, it’s all about what the, the owner themselves does. Mm-hmm. So, that is important. We talk about the, the idea of having some kind of focus and saying no to things. Not just doing everything that you could, serving every client that you could, but really having a plan. We talk about learning from mistakes. We’ve made a lot of ’em over the course of our careers, but we try to learn from them. And that’s one of the, the big benefits of this show is that we’re able to share those experiences. So hopefully you don’t repeat the same things that we’ve done wrong over the years. And finally, focusing on collaboration instead of competition, not viewing all other agencies and agency owners as the competition or worse, the enemy. And instead trying to figure out what we can all learn. From each other. So those were the key themes that, that were identified, that’s a pretty fair representation of the things that have come up, quite often. But I didn’t know if there were things there in particular that you wanted to react to or perhaps things that you thought of that our friend Claude may have overlooked. Gini Dietrich: No, I don’t think he, I don’t think our friend Claude overlooked anything. I think there are four things, four areas that, of those 10 that I think are incredibly important and those are, you know, even, even as agency owners, we may hate these things. They still are true, so. Communication fixes most problems. So, that transparency, being able to have conversations with your team and with your clients. You know, not being conflict avoidant. Knowing your numbers, of course. So understanding what your revenue versus your gross margin versus your net profit, net margin. And all of those numbers mean. Focusing on particular wins. So again, saying no to some things. And then the owner sets the temperature. So that your team and your clients react to the way that you move things and that you do things and the way you set boundaries of all that. So I think those are the four sort of, to me, big themes that we’ve focused on in the last 300 episodes. Chip Griffin: I would agree with that. And I think that communication doesn’t just solve problems. It prevents a lot of problems. Mm-hmm. And I think that the irony is, we’ve said this before, we are all in communications in some fashion or another, probably if we’re listening to this show, whether you are in PR or marketing or whatever, it’s all about communication. And yet we often do a very poor job of it ourselves and our teams don’t necessarily do a good job of it. And so, you know, we need to really double down and focus on that as much as possible because it will help us to avoid problems or as you say, solve problems. So, I’m glad that that did come out on the top of the list in all seriousness. And not, it depends because I think that that is almost everything that we discuss here, there is at least some element of communications to it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s exactly right. And, you know, we’ve talked over the years about certain things like being able to, because you are having constant communication with your clients, being able to, you know, for lack of a better term, upsell and extend retainers and get more out of things. And I think right now we’re in, I mean, everybody knows the world is on fire and it’s not good. And I’ve been having lots of conversations with lots of agency owners. Mostly who are friends, not necessarily clients about how their businesses are taking off a big hit. And so I’m sort of repeating the same things that I recommended, and I think you probably are doing the same in 2020 when we all took big hits, which is find the project work, do things that you can do. You know, for, not a retainer, but like small things. So do an assessment first for $5,000 and then build that into some, you know, specific projects sprinkled throughout the year. And then maybe next year you build that into a retainer. But really being open to the idea that you’re not necessarily gonna be able to build on retainer business right now, but you can do the, that project work. And you know, people still need to communicate. People still need to market their businesses. You just have to find creative ways to be able to help them. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think that that’s great advice at all times. Yeah. And, if we think back to the start of this conversation that we had back in 2018, there’s a lot of things that have taken place over the last eight years that we would not have predicted while we were sitting there. No, over that, that, that lovely lunch there. Outside of Wrigley Field. we would never have anticipated a shutdown due to a virus. Most of us would not have imagined a war as widespread as what we’re dealing with now and all of the other things that came along the way too. Those are just two of the biggest things in the last eight years. Yep. And so I think that, you know, always being willing to adapt and be agile and, you know, just talk things through and understand, you know, what’s on the minds of your team? What’s on the minds of your clients and prospects, and trying to find how you can relate to them as, as best as possible and, find ways to solve their challenges, even if it means adapting to the approach that you would typically take. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. I think that’s yes. And, you know, I keep being, I keep thinking about the quarterly review that we like to do inside my business, which is every quarter you’re having conversations that are advancing the next quarter. Right. So we, where I think eight years ago we talked about annual planning and retainers and things like that. And now my own thinking has shifted from that to quarterly planning and ensuring that we continue and truth be told, that has, that shift has provided us so much more opportunity for growth and for building the relationship inside our clients’ organizations because we’re constantly showing results. We’re constantly showing what’s worked. We’re constantly showing what hasn’t worked. And we’re constantly making recommendations for shifting things so that we can continue to grow. That has provided a much bigger opportunity and for me that has been a big shift that I’ve made in the last eight years for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, you know, some things haven’t shifted in the last eight years, right? I mean, some of the things that, that we talk about, you know, do hold up. The format of the show itself has, has held up. We have not made any substantial changes despite all of the, the entreaties we’ve gotten to have guests and all, all of the ridiculous pitches that we get from people. Oh, so and so would be a great guest on your show. You know, I listen all the time. No, you don’t. Gini Dietrich: No, you don’t. No. Chip Griffin: 300 episodes in. Zero guests. Gini Dietrich: Never a guest. Chip Griffin: We have never brought a guest on this show to talk with us. So it hasn’t changed. It’s just the two of us and I think that works out well. So, Gini Dietrich: yep. It’s never changed. Chip Griffin: At least it does for us. And you know, if it happens to work for you as a listener, that’s great too. But as we’ve said before, we kind of do this show more for us than, than anything else. Gini Dietrich: I think that, you just a couple of weeks ago, you had an idea to use AI to respond to those pitches, and I think you should do that. Chip Griffin: Well, actually, I, I, I believe that, that, well, yes, that was one idea. The other idea I had was to respond in sort of bro like fashion to them. Well, actually no, the, you’re right, the AI was for the pitches. Then the other one I was gonna do though was for all these people who pitch on, you know, you can get 300 new leads, leads this month, you know, and I was gonna give the, the, you know, that’s awesome, bro. Or something like that. Forget what, what my, I, I had some line that seemed… Gini Dietrich: Yes, please do that. Chip Griffin: Wacky and cool at the time. Gini Dietrich: Yes, I like it. Chip Griffin: But I hate all of these and I just, my inbox is terrible full of these things. I know. So stop it. Gini Dietrich: Stop it is right. Yes. Chip Griffin: Since all of you people pitching this podcast listen all the time. Listen to me. Don’t do it. Gini Dietrich: Please do not pitch this podcast. Chip Griffin: So I don’t know, have I gotten crankier over 300 episodes? I’m not sure. Gini Dietrich: I don’t think you’ve gotten crankier, but you know, one of the things that has been fun for me to watch personally about you and what you’ve changed your mind on is artificial intelligence itself. Chip Griffin: Yeah. That is certainly an area where I have, I prefer to call it evolved. And, you know, I, as a technologist, I have always been enthusiastic about the concept of AI. I was, I was skeptical a couple of years ago about how fast it would really be able to take hold, and I thought that frankly, a lot of agencies were overemphasizing AI a couple of years ago and being too optimistic about where things would be near term. And now the pendulum has swung, in part because the technology has improved so much, right? I mean, yeah. If, if you look at the various models and you, you run the ones that were ever present two or three years ago. They are nothing like, Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: What we have with Claude and chat GPT and that today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And I was reminded of that recently because I installed a local LLM on one of my machines just to sort of play around with it. And it did the wacky hallucinations because one of the things I always like to do is, as most of us do, I ask for information about myself. And it completely invented an entire narrative about me that had no bearing on reality whatsoever. But it said it really confidently, and I mean, it, it had a lot of detail, but it was just totally made up. And I said, this doesn’t sound right. And it came back with, oh yeah, you’re right. I made that up. Okay. Okay. And this is one of the, I forget which, it was one of the Quinn models, I think. Wow. Oh no, it was, uh, no, it was the… one of the Google ones. But anyway, it doesn’t matter what it was. The point is that it experienced the same problems that we saw a few years ago. And if I was still seeing that today from Claude, I, I would not believe as I do now that agencies are actually under emphasizing the impact Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Of AI. And we’re seeing it evolve at such a rapid pace that I think you really do need to be coming along with it and not continuing to fight it. Which I still see way too much of, in the agency industry. And I think that’s, that is something that, that really hasn’t changed over 300 years. Uh, 300 years. Gini Dietrich: 300 years. Geez. We are older than dirt. Chip Griffin: 300 episodes. I mean, if we, if we look back to 2018, there was a lot of resistance to change in the agency community. Mm-hmm. Back then. It’s just what the change is is has changed. But that general mindset, that has always worried me about the agency community, continues to be there and people getting too excited about the wrong kind of change. We had an episode recently where we mocked the holding companies for, you know, inventing subscriptions. So, you know, the, there are, there are things that have changed, there are things that haven’t changed, but AI is certainly at the top of my list for where my thinking has evolved over the years. Gini Dietrich: And I think you’re right. Like the, I mean, you know, since 2022 I have been all in on AI because I think it’s pretty phenomenal. And I think part of the challenge that we’re seeing right now is that people are being told that their jobs are going to be replaced. And agency owners and agency employees are being told by clients that their AI can do what they can do. And, and truthfully, it can, it can do your news releases, you can do your blog posts, it can do all of those things, right? And it’s actually pretty good. What it can’t do though is critical thinking and emotional intelligence and, you know, ethics and crisis and reputation and those kinds of things. So I believe that AI is not going to replace you, but people who know how to use AI effectively will. So those are the things that you have to be thinking about is how do you use it to enhance the work that you’re doing for clients and train your team to do the same. So that you are continuing to stay abreast and advanced versus getting replaced by an agent, an AI agent, in a year or two. Chip Griffin: See, I guess the pendulum has swung so far for me that I actually disagree with you on most of the things that you had on your list that AI can’t do, um, including the things that people tend to put at the top of their list. Uh, emotional intelligence. If you look at, I mean, there are a lot of people who are effectively using these chatbots as their therapist because it is good. Gini Dietrich: It’s so dangerous. Chip Griffin: Perhaps, however, that’s the reality, right? And so people are perceiving it to be more emotionally intelligent because it’s responding in a way that a lot of our, you know, human friends and acquaintances might not, for whatever reason, right? Because a lot of people, you know, even if you have good emotional intelligence, it’s different than how you actually communicate with somebody about that. Right? So I think that there are, there are a lot of areas where the AI, if not today, in the very near future, is going to be able to do it just as well as most of us in our jobs. And so we need to think about how do we do more? How do we apply that extra human bit on top of it? And I’m not intending to turn this into a whole AI show again. We’ve done a couple of those. I’m sure we’ll do quite a few more. But, you know, I, I think that the fundamentals remain. And when we think about the importance of communication, that is still a piece that at least for now, we have the human touch that we can apply to it, that the AI can’t. And so, you know, we want to make sure that we’re finding ways to weave that in. But a lot of the strategy and details, I mean, that… AI is absolutely coming for your job on that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I don’t know if I necessarily agree at a strategic level. I think that the… I think that you’re right if the inputs that you’re, you are giving it are correct and strategic and smart, like I’ll give you a really good example. We finished the PESO Model certification a month ago. And it took me a really, it took me about six hours for every lesson and there were, there are 10 to 12 lessons in every module. So it was a significant amount of content creation and thinking for me. And I used AI for some of it. I used it to help me organize it and to help me outline and those kinds of things. But I did the actual work, right? Fast forward to today. I’m working on the recertification, so I took all of the scripts and videos from 2020. I took all of the scripts and videos from 2024 when we did a refresh, and then I took all the scripts and the videos from this new one and I put them all into a folder, and then I use Claude Cowork and I said, here’s what I’m trying to do. I want to show, because the 2026 version has changed so much. I don’t necessarily want people who got certified between 2020 and 2025 to have to go through the whole certification again. But they do have to understand what all these changes have. So I, I prompted it and I, it probably took me about 90 minutes to prompt it the way I wanted it. But the output, because it has so much content, is so good that it’s taking me about an hour a lesson now instead of six. Mm-hmm. So I agree with you that I think it can do those things, but I think it still needs us to provide the correct inputs to understand what kind of output we’re looking for, and really to understand strategy. Because if you don’t understand those things, it’s still gonna give you slop. Regardless. Chip Griffin: Right, right. I mean, effectively, as we alluded to on a recent show, it’s turning everybody into managers, right? Yes. So, even if you were not a manager before, you, now you are being forced to manage the AI effectively as an employee. And, so you need to understand how to do that. Yes. And so it makes, it puts a premium on management skills, which we know is a large area of weakness for most small agencies in general, even before the era of AI. So, before we run out of time, I know that you also had an idea for a, a lightning round. And as I said in our pre-show conversation, I mean that, that basically is what all of our shows are. It’s just a, it’s just a lightning round because we come up with a topic 30 seconds before we hit record. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: And neither you nor I have. Any idea, I don’t even know what my opening is going to be. Right. As is painfully obvious on some of the shows. I certainly don’t rehearse the closing out, because a number of those are really crash landings at best. So, let’s, let’s see. I know you did share these, uh, questions with me in advance, but I didn’t really have a chance to look at them. Gini Dietrich: Okay, good. So let’s let that’ll make it better then. Chip Griffin: Let’s see where we go with this. Gini Dietrich: All right. You ready? Sure. Worst, worst advice agencies still believe. Chip Griffin: That you need to grow by adding more clients. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I, I think the not tracking time one, like, everybody’s like, oh, we don’t track time. We don’t bill by the hour. Okay, don’t bill by the hour. But you still have to track time because otherwise you have no idea if you’re profitable by client, by employee. You still have to bill time. Um, best decision you ever made that felt scary at the time? Chip Griffin: Hiring my first employee. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I would agree with that. Yep. Totally agree with that one. A red flag you now spot instantly in prospects? Chip Griffin: Unreasonable expectations. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I’d say like, yeah. If they, and especially if they can’t answer the budget question. Bye. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, to, to me it’s that with the expectations that just my experience has been you really, if, if someone comes in expecting something, it’s almost impossible to talk them back to a reasonable place. So if, if someone’s coming in with wild ideas, you’re gonna get me in the Wall Street Journal next week. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: Unless they, they immediately capitulate as soon as you point it out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Probably not gonna work out. Gini Dietrich: No, that’s a good point. All right. And then aside from, this is the last one, aside from what we’ve already talked about with AI an “I was wrong” prediction from early episodes. Chip Griffin: I mean, usually I’m so right. It’s really, it’s really hard to think about what I might be wrong about. I mean, to be honest, AI is really the thing that jumps out for me where I’ve had a clear change of position. I’m not… off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything substantial that I’ve significantly changed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve necessarily changed my mind, but I’ve evolved on some certain things like, you know, growth from more clients to better clients. From hiring the best to building systems and process, which, you know, eight years ago if you told me I had to build process, I would’ve been like, but now I, now I understand the, the importance and value in process. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Gini Dietrich: I still don’t wanna buy it, build it, but. Chip Griffin: Maybe outside of a lightning round, I can go back and look and, and find some things and we can have a future episode where we talk about, you know, other areas where we’ve evolved. Because I think, I think it can be interesting to look at not just what we’ve evolved on, but why. Sure. And oftentimes the why can reveal things. So maybe we’ve, we’ve come up with an idea for, you know, another 300 episodes by doing that. Gini Dietrich: Perfect. Another eight years. Chip Griffin: Another eight years. Man, I’m gonna be old. You of course will stay young. Gini Dietrich: No, of course. Yes. Chip Griffin: Check. Alright. So with that we’ll wrap up this 300th episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. We really appreciate all of you who take time to listen to every single one of those episodes. And please, if you’ve listened to all 300, please drop us a note. We would love to hear from you. Gini Dietrich: We would, yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: I kind of doubt that anyone has listened to all 300, but if you have, we would certainly like to hear from you. If you have ideas for other future episodes, we’re always looking for those as well. Particularly now ’cause we’ve done 300 of them. And so a lot of times we’ll search and say, oh, we already talked about that. Gini Dietrich: We do. Chip Griffin: But the beauty is it’s been over eight years. So we can talk about the same thing that we talked about eight years ago because, you know, a bunch of, you weren’t even agency owners eight years ago. Yep. So that’s, you probably didn’t hear us talk about it. So with that, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0En este episodio del podcast de Itnig hablamos con Juan García, cofundador y co-CEO de Tuio, una insurtech española que está construyendo una nueva forma de vender seguros: más digital, más transparente y con una integración vertical muy poco habitual en el sector. Una conversación muy potente para entender cómo funciona realmente el negocio asegurador por dentro, desde el pricing y la siniestralidad hasta la distribución, la regulación y la gestión del riesgo. Durante el episodio repasamos cómo funciona Tuio a nivel operativo y económico: qué significa no ser solo un bróker, cómo reparten el valor de una póliza, cuánto pesa el marketing dentro del negocio, por qué el CAC puede destrozar la caja en seguros directos y cómo han conseguido crecer hasta cerca de 100.000 clientes y 15 millones en primas apostando por eficiencia, precio y control de toda la cadena de valor. También entramos muy a fondo en una de las partes más interesantes del episodio: el uso de inteligencia artificial dentro de una aseguradora. No solo para automatizar atención al cliente, sino para tomar mejores decisiones en suscripción, siniestros, reservas, comunicación proactiva y operativa interna. Además, hablamos de qué cubre realmente un seguro del hogar, por qué la responsabilidad civil es tan importante, cómo se gestionan casos absurdamente complejos como las goteras entre vecinos y qué errores cometen muchas aseguradoras en producto y experiencia de usuario. Más allá del negocio asegurador, este episodio también cuenta la historia de cómo se construye una startup en un sector durísimo: la trayectoria de los fundadores, las rondas de financiación, el uso de venture debt, la dificultad de levantar capital en insurtech, el lanzamiento de nuevos productos como auto o viajes, y la ambición de convertir Tuio en un gran jugador digital del sur de Europa.

Most hiring processes obsess over the wrong things. Do they know our project management software? Are they proficient in this specific tool? Meanwhile, the one capability that actually determines whether someone will make your life easier or harder—their ability to solve problems independently—gets a cursory “are you a good problem solver?” question that everyone answers with “yes.” In this episode, Chip and Gini break down why problem-solving ability should be the primary hiring criterion, especially as AI makes technical skills easier to acquire and offload. The conversation explores why this matters more now than ever: as AI handles tactical execution, the ability to define problems clearly, break them into components, and figure out solutions becomes the differentiator between humans who add value and humans who get replaced. Chip and Gini discuss how problem-solving cuts across every role, even ones you don’t typically think of as problem-solving positions. Designers facing impossible deadlines, account people navigating last-minute client demands, anyone dealing with the reality that things rarely go according to plan. They all need to be able to figure out how to move forward rather than escalating every obstacle upward. The episode tackles the mechanics of actually interviewing for this capability. You can’t just ask “are you a good problem solver?”—you need scenario-based questions that reveal how candidates think through challenges. But not hypothetical scenarios you make up; real situations that have happened in your agency. Ask them to walk through how they’ve handled compressed timelines, missing information, conflicting priorities, or last-minute changes in past roles. Gini shares how her daughter’s school explicitly focuses on humanities and emotional intelligence rather than technical skills, anticipating that AI will reshape what jobs exist. She connects this to Anthropic’s hiring practice of seeking people with humanities degrees who can absorb information, think critically, and demonstrate emotional intelligence rather than just technical proficiency. The episode concludes with an important reminder: if you hire problem solvers but then micromanage how they solve problems, you’ve wasted the hire. You need to let them solve things their way, even if it’s different from how you’d do it, or you’ll end up with everything back on your plate anyway. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The very best hires are folks who are able to figure out how to look at a problem and come up with ideas on how to solve it in ways that are reasonable that they can execute upon to get it solved.” Gini Dietrich: “When you think about problem solving, that is one thing that it will be challenging for AI to do, but really important for a human to be able to do. If you can demonstrate that you can solve problems and you know how to hire for people who can solve problems, then all of a sudden you’ve got AI over here doing the tactical work, but you’re doing the high level thinking work.” Chip Griffin: “This isn’t about the specifics of the answer, it’s more making sure that they can think through the method and approach. That’s what signals to you that they’re able to break down the challenge into its component parts to make progress.” Gini Dietrich: “I don’t wanna hear problems, I wanna hear solutions. That’s training the problem solving mentality. I need you to come to me with the solutions. I’m not gonna be the one who comes up with the solutions. It’s not scalable, it’s exhausting.” Turn Ideas Into Action Rewrite your interview questions to focus on real scenarios. Pull up your current interview script and replace skill-testing questions with situation-based ones drawn from actual challenges your team has faced in the past six months. Instead of “Do you know Asana?” ask “Tell me about a time you got an urgent request at 4pm Friday with a Monday deadline. Walk me through your approach.” Spend 30 minutes creating 3-5 scenario questions specific to each role you hire for. Test whether you’re letting your problem solvers actually solve. Pick the last three times a team member brought you a problem this week. For each one, honestly assess: did you immediately jump in with the solution, or did you ask “how do you think we should handle this?” If you solved more than half yourself, you’re training your team to be dependent rather than autonomous. Next time someone brings you a problem, pause and ask them for proposed solutions before weighing in. Audit your hiring criteria for trainable vs. essential skills. List the requirements in your most recent job posting and mark each as either “can be trained in 2 weeks” or “fundamental to the role.” Tools, software, specific methodologies—all trainable. Problem-solving, critical thinking, ability to work under ambiguity—essential. If more than 30% of your listed requirements are trainable skills, you’re screening out good problem solvers who could learn your tools in a week. Related Hire for problem-solving ability first View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I have a problem. Gini Dietrich: You do? You have just one problem? Chip Griffin: Okay. I have many, many, but this isn’t Festivus, so we’re not gonna have an airing of grievances from you. Gini Dietrich: Would you like me to solve your problem for you? Chip Griffin: I, I, if, if you could solve some problems for me, that would be fantastic because then, I might even be inclined to hire you. Not that you would ever wanna work for me. That would just be disastrous. Gini Dietrich: That would not be good though. Yeah. Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about problem solving today, though not, not all of my problems. We’re not gonna solve any of them on this episode, I don’t think. Probably create some new ones. Problem solving. I wrote an article recently about the importance of focusing on problem solving as either the primary or one of the primary considerations when you are hiring new employees as an agency. And I, I feel quite strongly over the years that the very best hires or folks who are able to figure out how to, to look at a problem and come up with ideas on how to solve it and ways that are reasonable that they can execute upon to get it solved so that they’re not being dependent upon you or others to do that for them. And in my view, this is something that’s really hard to train for. Mm-hmm. And so therefore, something more important to focus on during the hiring process than things that you can send someone to a course or a training session or give them a book on, and problem solving just is not that for most people. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, as we’re thinking about what the future holds, especially with artificial intelligence. The things that we can do as human beings that AI cannot do are gonna be more important, right? So when you think about problem solving, that is one thing that it will be challenging for AI to do, but really important for a human to be able to do so. If you can demonstrate that you can solve problems and you know how to hire for people who can solve problems, and clients are hiring you to solve, help solve their problems, then all of a sudden you’ve got AI over here doing, you know, the tactical work, but you’re doing the high level like thinking work that I think is going to help set you apart. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and AI certainly makes it a lot easier to problem solve Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Than it has been in the past. Right? Because it can help you with the basics, like research. But the other thing that you have to think about is in order to get the AI to help you, you have to do a good job of defining what the problem even is. Yep. And, and that is a key part of being a problem solver, is being able to look at a situation and say, okay, here’s what the real problem is. Yep. You’re not, you’re not focused on some symptom, but you figured out, you know, this is really where we need to zero in on, and AI can probably help you with that a little bit, but the more clear you can be about saying, Hey, here’s my problem. Here’s where I want to get, you still need to have that mindset for problem solving to get the AI to give you the best results possible without doing a lot of wandering in the wilderness. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, one of the reasons I like, sort of, we’ve talked about this before, but the question process of the new business of the prospecting, you know, process is you ask a bunch of questions. And you do that so that you can educate yourself on the prospect’s organization and their goals and all those things. Of course. But when you dig deep into question after question after question, you start to uncover things that they didn’t tell you at first. Like you’re not gonna say, so what problem or pain do you want me to solve? Because they’re gonna go, I, I need an agency to do this and this. That’s not their problem. That’s not the pain that you’re solving for them. You can, you ask questions so that you dig deeper and eventually you’re going to get to that, but it’s the same thing, you know, with AI, you can’t just say like, I need a social media agency to be able to post five times a week. That’s not the problem. What is the problem? So AI can’t help you solve that. It can give you posts for five days a week, but it’s not gonna help you achieve the goals that you want. So really think about when you’re doing quarterly planning, when you’re talking to clients, when you’re talking to prospects, continuing to ask those questions so that you can figure out what problems or what pains you are trying to solve for them so that you can elevate yourself above what AI is gonna be able to do and even help you do. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, as you say, you know, clients are coming to us as agencies looking for us to solve their problems, which means that, that we need to have that mindset. And you, as the agency owner, you wanna be able to delegate more off of your plate. And the only way that you can do that is if you surround yourself with problem solvers. Yep. If you surround yourself with the people who know the questions to ask and who can look at it and say, ah, I’ve got an idea for how we can get from here to there. And it keeps you from having to be deeply involved in every single scenario. And that might be as simple as, you know, Hey, this, this report didn’t get done on time. You know, we need to do something quickly. Great, fine. You, you know what the challenge is. If you’re a problem solver, you’ll come up with that. If you don’t, you’re gonna go to the boss and say, oh my God, we didn’t get this report to the client on time. What do we do? You don’t want deal with that? No, no. It’s painful for everybody. Everyone. Yes. So you’ve gotta surround yourself with the people who have that problem solving mindset and, and the instincts to be able to, even when they’re confronted with something that they don’t know, right. ’cause a good problem solver doesn’t need to have all of the expertise in the world. Because they just need to be able to figure out, okay, how do we go about doing this? How do we break this down into its component parts and begin to address it and begin to make progress, and that’s really what the essence of problem solving is. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s sort of like, you know, I’ll say to my team often, I don’t wanna hear problems, I wanna hear solutions. And it’s training them to come with that. Like, and I’m sure you work that way. I’m sure that people listening work that way. And if they’ve had bosses that have said, if you bring me a problem, I want solutions as well. That’s training the problem solving mentality, right? So it’s very much like, okay, I understand that things are not always going to go smoothly. I understand that we’re gonna have some failure, and I’m willing to take those risks, but I need you to come to me with the solutions. I’m not gonna be the one who, who comes up with the solutions. First of all, it’s not scalable, it’s exhausting. Clients will not ever stop trusting, being able to trust. They will never be able to trust anybody else on your team because you’re always the problem solver. So it’s really how do you bring your team along? And I think that’s one of the good things and it’s, you have to stay firm to it. Like, okay, it’s, and because in many cases your instinct is to solve the problem, but instead you have to take a step back and say, how do you think we should solve this? What are some solutions you propose? And really build that capability inside your team’s minds to be able to do that without you having to say, what are the solutions? Chip Griffin: Right. And I think that, that this matters more than almost anything else you can focus on during the hiring process. I mean, obviously you’ve gotta to make sure you got the right, you know, the right feel, the right chemistry and that sort of thing. Sure. Because it is, we’re ultimately humans and we all have to be able to engage well with the people that we’re working with. But, you know, I see so many of these interview processes that fixate on proficiency in various things. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Like writing tests. And Yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, writing tests. Yep. You know, back when I used to hire a lot of web developers and that sort of thing, you know, there was always a desire to test them on particular programming language just to see if they were proficient in it. You know, people are like, oh my God, you know, do you use Asana or a Clickup, or whatever we use in the, oh, you don’t, you don’t know how to use that? Oh. Oh. I don’t know if we can, ah, I don’t really want to have to teach how to use a different system. I, I’m, I’m gonna discount that. Like, that’s, none of that stuff matters. Right. Those things can all be trained. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And frankly, a lot of those things are being replaced by a lot of the other things we’re doing. Problem solving cuts across almost every single, and probably actually every single role that we have in an agency. And frankly, even far beyond an agency, even ones where you don’t necessarily think of it as a problem solving role. I mean, if you think about designers, for example. You sit there and say, well, you know, that’s, that’s really not pro That’s a creative thing. We need to know how creative they are and Sure. I mean, they’ve gotta have some, you know, basic design skills that, that meet the aesthetic that you’re trying to produce for your clients. But ultimately they are actually problem solvers. I’ve never met a designer who felt they were being given enough time for any project. I mean, you could give them a month and they would still be like, ah, you know, I really could use like six weeks to really Gini Dietrich: Yes, Uhhuh Chip Griffin: fine tune my vision. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So, so there are already almost always starting from that problem solving standpoint of how do you get this done in the timeframe that I’m being allowed? And the reality is you’re never giving them a month. You’re giving them maybe half a day if they’re lucky. Right. You know, because they’re the last ones. Of the designers, I, I feel bad for all my design friends because they are the last people brought in in most agencies. And they’re brought in, we’ve got all the content ready, we’re getting ready to release this tomorrow. Can you make it look pretty? It’s like it’s three o’clock, you’re putting this out at 9:00 AM tomorrow. Gini Dietrich: Oh, sure. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, that’s problem solving. You’ve gotta try to figure out how do you, how do you still get a good result? Mm-hmm. Even given all of those constraints. And so you need to think about every role that you’re hiring, problem solving. And so how do you go about doing that? Right? It’s not, you don’t just say, are you a good problem solver? Right. ’cause guess what, nobody’s gonna say no. And if they do great, it’s easy to just get rid of ’em at that point, because they don’t even know how to interview, let alone Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Right. Chip Griffin: How to solve a proper problem. So, you know, it’s sort of like a reference. I think it’s silly to check references because you know what? Nobody gives you a bad reference. Right. I mean, in all the years I’ve been checking references, I’ve gotten maybe one mediocre reference. It wasn’t even a negative, but you know, you kind of read between the lines and you’re like, eh. Yeah. But almost every one of them is positive. That’s the names you get. Nobody’s gonna tell you they’re bad problem solvers. How do you find out if they are or not? You’ve gotta try to either give them scenarios. And I’m a little, I don’t, I don’t love scenarios because we all have a tendency to come up with fairly unrealistic scenarios. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Chip Griffin: But I, I think you can say to somebody, look, you know, tell me about a time where you had a particular challenge and think about it in terms of the role. For that designer, ask. So, you know, you, you get presented to it at, the rough draft at 3:00 PM and you’re, you have to turn it into a pretty presentation by 9:00 AM the next morning. How do you begin to go about that process? Walk me through what you’ve done before when you had that same scenario confronting you. Because you can, you can learn a lot just from listening to them, and the actual answers don’t matter all that much. Don’t fixate on, well, I would’ve done this instead of that. It’s more making sure that they can think through the method and approach. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: That’s what signals to you that they’re able to break down the challenge into its component parts to make progress. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I really like the, I’m with you on the scenario based interviewing, but I really like the, all right, like these are things that have happened inside our organization because of like something that just happened the other day. Tell me about a time that you got something at four o’clock on Friday afternoon, you had tickets to the Cubs game, and you knew it was due on Monday morning. Like, what do you do? Chip Griffin: Well, they had tickets to a rare night game. Huh? Gini Dietrich: Actually, we have the Cubs play a lot of night games actually. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I know. I’m, I’m just so old, I, I remember when they didn’t play them at all, so. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. But like, what do you do about that? How do you solve that problem. And some people will say, I work all weekend, which I don’t love, but some people will say, I will give up the Cubs tickets Also, don’t love that. But are there other ways, other creative ways that you might get that work done so that you’re not working all weekend and you don’t have to give up your Cubs tickets? So those are the kinds of things that I like to listen for. You know, they, and they’ll give you answers they think you want to hear, which are, I won’t go to the game or I’ll work all weekend. Those are not the answers I wanna hear. I wanna hear like, creative, interesting. Maybe I can’t get it done before I go to the game, but I’m gonna, you know, buckle down and I’m gonna ask for help or, you know, those kinds of things are the things that I’m looking for. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, even if they do say, well, look, I’m gonna, you know, skip this or that because, you know, work would be my priority or whatever. I mean, that it, it’s still okay, that’s fine. But this isn’t, this is this. If your idea of solving a problem is just throwing more hours at it, that doesn’t work for me. Gini Dietrich: Right. That doesn’t work. Right. Chip Griffin: So, even if you do end up spending that time, tell me about, you know, what are the actual steps that you’re taking? Because you may be willing to pull an all-nighter, but what about the rest of the team? Right. And, you know, how do you go about getting the information that you need and getting it approved in the right way? And, you know, how do you think about, you know, frankly, which, which corners are okay to cut and which ones aren’t? You know, when you have to deal with a compressed timeframe, you have to be rational and say, okay. It’s not gonna be as perfect as I would like it to be. And, to continue on with the design example, are you okay with that? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, Chip Griffin: and I’ve, I’ve worked with some designers who just, you know, they’re like, I just will not give you something that doesn’t meet my standard. I appreciate that you have a high standard, I also have a deadline. Yep. So work with me on this and figure out what we can get done on this time. Yep. And that’s the, that’s the kind of answer that I’m looking for from them. If it’s, you know, someone who’s, you know, pitching a new outlet or industry that they’re not familiar with, what are the steps that you go through? How do you begin to think about it? And I, again, it’s not so much about the specifics of it, but just making sure that you’re seeing the logic at play. Yep. In a way that you’re like, yeah, okay, I can, I can see why you made that choice. But definitely don’t fixate Well, I don’t know why you would look at that. I would look at this instead. I mean, because you haven’t had a chance to imbue any of your own thinking to them to bring your own agency training. But if they can think about how they make those individual steps possible, that’s really what you need to know. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, one of the things that, I’m sure I’ve told this story before, but when we were looking at schools for, at the time, our 4-year-old to go to, to kindergarten, and then on through school and we were interviewing schools and we were trying, Chicago’s a weird way of doing schools, but, so we were looking at, we were interviewing schools. And every single one of them, so this is eight years ago, said, we focus our curriculum on the humanities and social and emotional intelligence and learning because we don’t know what jobs are going to be available for these kids because of AI and because of how fast technology is changing. So we know that if we put kids out into the world, out into the community, that can solve problems that have high emotional intelligence, that can think logically, that have common sense, that they will be good stewards and can do the jobs that are available. Versus building kids that can do programming or math or science or STEM or whatever happens to be, right. We’re going to put good stewards of the community out there, and I think about that a lot. And I just read an article this morning that talks about how Anthropic is hiring people with humanities degrees because they have high emotional intelligence. They can think through things, they can read something and absorb it versus just skimming it. All of the things that, those that, that kind of degree teaches you are the things that companies are gonna be looking for. And it’s the same thing I think for agency owners is that’s exactly it is how do you find the people that can problem solve, that can take in information and use that to make decisions that, you know, are used to high emotional intelligence kinds of things. Versus I know how to logically solve a math problem. or I know how to program or I know how to write a news release. Because AI can do all of those things. So that’s what we really should be looking for and interviewing for is those problem solving skills. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and you’ll find if, if you get good problem solvers, they’ll be confronted with things that, that you never even dreamed up. So you wouldn’t think to ask in an interview. Right. To figure out if they could do it. But they’re good problem solvers. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: They can figure out how to get there. Absolutely. If they’re not good problem solvers, they’re just gonna sit there and stare at it, or they’re gonna make the radically wrong decision just because it’s the easy way out. I think of a plumber that I had in my house 20 years ago, and we were having an issue with water pressure. And so he came in and he’s looking and we, you know, we’re on a well system here ’cause I’m living rural and they’re trying to figure out, you know, all the tanks and this and that. And he’s like, well, the solution is you need to put in a larger tank. I’m like, really? That’s, that’s gonna solve my water pressure problem. He said, yeah, that’s, that’s definitely gonna solve it. I’m like, and so I just, I, it didn’t feel right to me. So I sat with him. I said, okay, well walk me through, you know. Yeah. What we’re doing here and, and so I, I had ’em tell me what all the pipes were and what they were doing, and we get to one and it turns out there’s one that was a filter. And I said, I said, well, what if we just tried changing out that filter and just make sure that it’s not clogged up? Yeah. We could try that. I guess. I mean, okay. Turned out it was a $10 filter that we needed to replace instead of, instead of like a $1500 water tank instead. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I was gonna say multi-thousand water. Chip Griffin: But he, you know, he was not of the mindset, you know, go through and diagnose it step by step and follow the path of the water and see where it might be being obstructed so that it’s not getting, because I mean the, the current water tank was showing that it had the right pressure. So it didn’t really make sense to me that if the tank was showing it had the right pressure, that a larger tank was gonna suddenly change, that it would still be at the same pressure setting, Gini Dietrich: right? Chip Griffin: So somewhere between the tank and where it came out of the faucet, it was where it was falling apart. And so you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta try to hire people that can think that way because it’ll keep things off of your plate. And we always talk here about the importance of not bogging yourself down. And so the other thing you need to keep in mind is if you’re gonna be hiring for problem solving ability, you actually need to let your team do the problem solving. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: You have to. You have to accept that they may not solve it in exactly the same way that you do, but because you’ve hired a team of problem solvers, they will get it done. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: If that happens, you don’t have a lot sitting on your plate, which is better for you. And frankly, it’s better for the employee because they don’t feel like you’re breathing down their shoulder and micromanaging them. So yes, problem solvers solve other problems other than the ones that they’re setting out to solve. Gini Dietrich: Yes, they do. Yes, they do. I think the article that you wrote was really good. It walks through some of these, some of these ideas. It also gives some other ideas on how to interview for problem solving, so I’m sure Jen will link to it. But it was a very good thought provoking article, so thank you. Chip Griffin: I am always grateful to be able to produce thought provoking pieces, and it’s a particular challenge. I’m always looking to try to figure out how I can make you think too, so. Because you’ve got probably all the same answers that I do on most things. So Gini Dietrich: sometimes we disagree on things, but yeah, Chip Griffin: occasionally. Occasionally we haven’t done it that much. But, but maybe, maybe on the next episode, Gini Dietrich: maybe. Chip Griffin: Who knows? We might Gini Dietrich: never know. Chip Griffin: Just teasing that next episode. ’cause the next one’s a milestone. Gini Dietrich: It is a milestone Chip Griffin: at least. At least if, if Jen’s math is correct. The next episode is episode 300, so, Gini Dietrich: woo hoo. Chip Griffin: Stay tuned for that one. Gini Dietrich: It’ll be a special one. Special one. Chip Griffin: As they like to say in YouTube land. Make sure you click the subscribe button. Gini Dietrich: So you don’t miss an episode. Chip Griffin: Nope. You would never wanna miss an episode of this. Gini Dietrich: Never. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: It’s the most fascinating podcast on the interwebs. Gini Dietrich: It is. Chip Griffin: So with that, that will draw that to an end this episode of the most amazing podcast ever. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends except about the quality of this podcast. Gini Dietrich: Right.

Most agency owners have read Built to Sell. But many have internalized the wrong lesson from it—fixating on that final chapter where the protagonist drives off into the sunset with a pile of cash, rather than the actual business-building advice throughout the book. The result is owners spending years building businesses optimized for a sale that may never happen, or that won’t deliver the outcome they’re imagining. In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss Chip’s “Build to Own” philosophy as a counterpoint to the built-to-sell mindset. The core principle: focus on creating a business that serves you today, not some hypothetical buyer tomorrow. This doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t sell—it means you stop treating the sale as the primary objective and start treating ownership as the thing you’re optimizing for right now. Chip breaks down the TMRW framework for thinking about what you want from your business: Time (how much you spend and what flexibility you have), Meaning (what gives you satisfaction—clients, team, impact), Rewards (financial outcomes that fund your life today and tomorrow), and Work (the actual role you’re crafting for yourself). Gini shares her decision to retire from speaking despite conventional wisdom saying agency owners should be out there raising their profile—because the anxiety wasn’t worth the marginal business benefit. The conversation tackles the uncomfortable reality that most agency owners counting on a sale to fund their retirement are likely building businesses that won’t command the multiple they’re hoping for. Meanwhile, owners who build businesses that throw off enough cash to fund retirement directly—while also being enjoyable to run—end up with something far more attractive to buyers when and if they do decide to sell. Gini tells the story of a friend who prepared five years in advance for a sale: removing himself from day-to-day operations, hiring a president to build culture, ensuring the business wasn’t founder-dependent. The result? An 18x multiple. But the episode’s point isn’t “here’s how to get a great sale”—it’s that you should make every decision through the lens of “would I still be happy with this if I never sold?” Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “What’s the point of taking on all the risk and stress of owning the business if you’re not getting what you want from it? At that point you are working for the business you own rather than putting the business to work for you.” Gini Dietrich: “If you think about it from the perspective of let’s just pretend you’ll never sell the business, what do you want right now? Write those things down and be really honest with yourself, and then build the business around that. I promise you that if you do those things, you’re gonna be much more attractive to a buyer later.” Chip Griffin: “You should always ask yourself the question, would I still be happy with this decision if I didn’t sell? Because that is candidly the more likely scenario for most people listening to this show.” Gini Dietrich: “If you’re implementing somebody else’s plan, just go work for somebody else. There’s no reason to have all the risk and blood and sweat and tears, just go work for someone else.” Turn ideas into action Define your TMRW priorities this week. Block 30 minutes and write down what you actually want from your business right now across four areas: Time (how many hours, what flexibility), Meaning (what gives you satisfaction), Rewards (what financial outcomes you need), and Work (what role you want to play day-to-day). Be brutally honest—not what you think you “should” want, but what you actually want. This clarity becomes your filter for every business decision going forward. Audit your last five major decisions against your ownership goals. Look back at recent significant choices—a new service line, a hiring decision, a client you pursued, a speaking commitment you accepted. For each one, ask: “If I never sell this business, would this decision still make sense for what I want from ownership?” If more than half don’t pass that test, you’re optimizing for the wrong outcome. Calculate whether you’re funding your future or gambling on it. Open your financials and answer three questions: Are you paying yourself a competitive salary (what you’d make if you took a job elsewhere)? Are you contributing to retirement at the level you’d need to retire comfortably without a sale? Is the business profitable enough to sustain both? If the answer to any is “no,” you’re counting on a sale rather than building a business that works for you today—and that’s a bet most owners lose. Resources Chip’s Build to Own philosophy Related Build to Own: Getting More From Agency Ownership Build for TMRW to get more from your agency Adopting the Build to Own Mindset The Build to Own mindset Building the agency you want to own (featuring Chris Williams) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And I think we’re gonna talk about construction today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: We are. Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about building. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Structure. I, Nope, I can’t do it. Sorry. Chip Griffin: It’s my job to torture things. You’re, yes, you’re, Gini Dietrich: yes. I, Chip Griffin: you are too grounded in reality. I’m the one who’s off in Never Never Land making up weird stuff. So, yes. No, we are not talking about about construction, I think. Gini Dietrich: No, but we are talking about building. Chip Griffin: into all sorts of zoning violations and probably code compliance issues and all that. Don’t listen to us on that stuff. Gini Dietrich: We’re not touching construction. Chip Griffin: We are talking instead about my Build to Own concept because it’s something I’ve talked about a little bit over the years, but haven’t really focused on well enough. So I wrote an article about it recently to try to underscore a little bit about my overall philosophy about how you ought to go about running your agency. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s a really good topic because you know, there’s the book called Built to Sell, which I think probably most of us have read, which the idea is that you’re building process and procedure to be able to sell your business someday. But what does that look like if you don’t sell or that’s not part of your goal, or you’ve built a lifestyle business, or you’re in the middle of it, and you’re like, Ugh, how much longer do I have to do this? Right? And so changing your mindset to be around built to own is, I think a really good one. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, I, I think that there is, like everybody else I have read Built to Sell, I think it is a great book. There’s a lot of good advice in there. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I think, you know, my issue with it is that a lot of people don’t read all of the advice. And so instead they think about the title of the book. Right. And so it’s, it is very much, a build to sell is, or Build to Own rather, is a definite counterpoint to built to sell because it does two things. First of all, instead of looking in the rear view mirror as built to sell does with the word built instead of build. And also it helps you to understand that you need to think about what’s going on with your business today. Gini Dietrich: Right? Right. Chip Griffin: Yes. Maybe someday you’ll sell, but if you focus just on the maybe someday. You may have a miserable existence until then. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And too many people read Built to Sell and they dwell on the last couple of pages of the book. Yep. Where it makes it seem like the owner has driven off into the sunset and is sitting on some beach in Tahiti sinking drinking mai tais for the rest of their lives. That is an unlikely scenario. Yes. For most agency owners. We’ve talked about that before. So fundamentally the same things that you want to do in order to be appealing to a buyer, typically, you’re gonna make it more appealing to own as well. But it’s changing your mindset to think about first and foremost, what you want from the business. And, and starting from there, instead of saying, what might somebody else want? Why should I, you know, I wanna get into this particular sector because that’s a hot sector that someone wants to buy, or I wanna focus on growing revenue because if I grow it by, you know, 50% a year, someone’s gonna be excited about it. But what does it mean for you today? Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah, I think it’s a really good question to ask yourself and, and I think we’ve also talked about this too, that it changes, right? It may not, it may not be the same that it is right now. I mean, in 2012, I remember looking ahead to 2020 and thinking like 2020, the year 2020, like perfect vision, here’s the things that I want to have accomplished. And we all know what happened in 2020, right? Just the, right? So things change. Things… you know, the world happens, the economy happens. Sectors change. Your needs change, your desires change, all of those things. And I think it’s really important to say, what is it that I want to build right now? And be okay with the fact that it may evolve in three years. It may evolve in five years, and that’s okay. Yes. But what is it that we’re trying to build right now and, and how can I be satisfied with that? And I think you raised some really good points in your article, which I will not steal your thunder on, but there’s some really good points in there about how to think through that and figure out what it is that you want right now. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think as you say it, it can change regularly. So you ought to be reviewing this regularly. You shouldn’t assume that whatever you decided two years ago is still the right direction because your life changes, the world changes, you learn more. All of those kinds of things. And, so what I typically encourage people to do is, is to think about tomorrow. And I spell that of course, in the, the weird texter way of TMRW because you know, I am, I am that hip and, and that’s, you know, typically how I, I text people too. Sure. At least whenever I can figure out how to even type something into my, my phone because I, I’m terrible at that. But it’s it. So it’s focusing on four things. It’s focusing on time, meaning, rewards, and work. So in other words, you need to think about how much time do you want to spend in the business? What kind of flexibility do you want in that time? What kind of things do you want to carve out additional time for. You need to think about meaning what, you know, how are you gonna get satisfaction from the business? Is it the kind of clients you’re working with, the people that you’re working with? Is it building something that people are proud of and say, wow, this guy did a great thing. What is it that gives you meaning out of it? Rewards pretty self-explanatory, but you know, it’s the financial aspect of it. Are you getting what you want from it? Is it setting you up for your future that you’re trying to have? Whether that’s paying for your kids’ education or funding your retirement or what have you. And you should focus on the business today doing that, not some magical, mystical, possible sale somewhere down the road that may or may not happen. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And then finally, you need to think about the work that you’re doing because ultimately, if you wanted to do work that you were miserable about, you could go work for somebody else. At least for a while, you probably make some more money than what you would make off of your own business. So you need to make sure that you’re crafting a job, a role that you actually like. So if you think about those things in terms of how you want to build something that you’re happy to own, that’s a good way to start by thinking about the TMRW mindset. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really important to do that. You know, it’ll be two years in August that I decided I was retiring from speaking. And, not because of any reason other than it makes me super anxious. It, I get really, really, I get super, super nervous. I get really anxious leading up to it. It’s fine once I’m on stage and it’s fine after, but leading up to it is way too much for me. And I discovered through data that I actually make more money when I don’t leave my desk that often. Right. So while it does help with awareness and all those kinds of things. I’m significantly more productive when I sit at my desk. So I said to myself, from a rewards perspective, what is it that I want to do with the business and with my life? And one of those things was giving up speaking. And you know, to this day, people ask me to speak and I, it’s, it’s hard for me to say no, but I do, because I’ve said to myself, in myself inside my head. You’re retired from speaking. Now I’ll do it virtually and you know, all those things. But getting me up on stage, I’m just not gonna do it anymore. Yeah. And that was a reward for me that I wanted to have, and that, you know, it’s been almost two years. It still remains today. So that may change. I may change my mind, you know, later and want to get back out there again and do it again. Maybe. Maybe not, but, to your point, that’s one of the things that I think about is, you know, how is, how is my life structured right now and what do I want to change so that I’m happier doing it every day? Chip Griffin: Well, and that’s a perfect example of the Build to Own approach because it really allows you to craft something that makes sense for you, even though it violates almost every quote unquote rule that experts would tell you, right? Yes. I mean, most expert advisors, yes, will tell you, you know, as a business owner, as an agency owner, you need to be out there speaking and yes, raising the profile for the business and all of these things. And look, that works for some people. But if you don’t like it, if you don’t want to do it. You shouldn’t. You should think of other ways that you can grow the business. Yep. Same thing with, you know that you will read, including in Built to Sell and elsewhere, that you should get yourself outta day to day client work. Okay. I mean. If that’s what you want, great. If it’s not what you want, figure out how to structure the business so that, that you can do that client service work ’cause that’s what fulfills you. I mean, really, and I know I say this a lot, but what’s the point of taking on all the risk and stress of owning the business if you’re not getting what you want from it? Right. I mean that’s just, yes. It makes no sense. Yes. ’cause at that point you are working for the business you own. Yep. Rather than putting the business to work for you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s such a good way to look at it, because if you think about it from the perspective of let’s just set aside that you will, let’s just say pretend you’ll never sell. You’ll never sell the business. You know, we don’t know what’s gonna happen to it in the future, but that’s off the table. What do you want right now? Is it the ability to do client work? Is it the ability to work on innovative projects? Is it the ability to sort of think about the future and what that might look like for your business? Is it to make a crap ton of money? What is it that you want? Write those things down and be really honest with yourself, and then build the business around that. And I promise you that if you do those things, you’re gonna be much more attractive to a buyer later than you are if you’re trying to build a business to sell it. Chip Griffin: Exactly. I mean if, if you’re able to build a business that throws off enough cash that you’re able to fund all of your current needs, to fund your retirement and all of those things, that’s the kind of business that a lot more people are going to want to buy. Yeah. If you’re counting on that maybe someday sale to be your payday that allows you to actually retire or those kinds of things. And I see a lot of owners who are in this position. You probably have built something that you’re not gonna get that much of a premium on. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so you actually are helping your future sale by collecting more money from the business today. You’re not actually holding back your opportunities, you’re creating more of them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really important to remember that. And you know, I have had several situations with friends who own agencies who have come to me and said, Hey, I’m thinking about putting the business up for sale. I need to be out in the next year. And you’re like, you can’t…. This… what? And have done no preparation for that other than that’s like, I want to retire and that’s the end goal is to sell the business. And there’s no profitability in the business. They haven’t paid themself a fair wage. Like there’s no preparation for it. You know, one of the biggest lessons I learned is I sit on several boards and in 2019, I sat on a board that sold right before the pandemic. And leading up to that five years before he put the business up for sell, he knew he was gonna put the business on the market in five years. He started to look for, first of all, he started to look for ways to take himself out of the business, so it was no longer founder led, and he put key personnel in place. Three years out of selling the business, he hired a president who was building the culture and that the team relied on so that that person would be sold with the business. And he did all of these things to create process and procedure so that when he put the business up for sale, it was not about him as the founder, it was about the business. And he got… I think he ended up with like 18 times multiple because of it. But he spent five years doing that, right? And he built a team and he built key personnel and he ensured that those people had the right contracts in place and the right salaries in place that they would then go with the business when he sold it. And he, of course, he had a little bit of an earnout, but it wasn’t as significant as if he were the, as if it were founder led. So there were all these things he did that he did to prepare for that for five years. So my team and I look at every 90 days, we do a 90 day sprint and we look at what process is broken right now and how can we fix that. But at the same time, I’m not doing anything that I don’t enjoy. I’m focused on the things I want to do and I’m building the business around it. Will we put the business up for sale someday? Maybe. I dunno, we’ll see. But right now we’re building a business that I enjoy owning. We’re having a blast. Chip Griffin: Right. Well look, I mean, you know, as I say over and over again, because I, the biggest objection I hear when I talk about Build to Own is, geez, you know, I, but, but I wanna sell someday. I, I, you know, I don’t wanna do this forever. Okay. Build to Own in no way precludes it. Gini Dietrich: Right? Right. Chip Griffin: And it, all I’m saying to you is that instead of making selling your focus, you should focus on the ownership piece because you know that you own the business. You know that you will own the business. You’re not sure if you’re going to sell. If you are, you certainly do want to take the steps to prepare that your friend did. And, and the more, time that you have to prepare and think about and structure the business, the more likely you are to have success. But it’s still not a sure thing, right? You may not get right the kind of offer that you’re looking for, you may not get the terms that you’re looking for. Yep. And so you should always, even if you’re thinking about selling one day and you want to generally position for that, you should always ask yourself the question, would I still be happy with this decision if I didn’t sell? Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Because that is the, that is candidly the more likely scenario for most people listening to this show. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s reality. Your, your advice to focus on things as a business owner, which are funding your retirement. Making a livable salary. Making a salary that, you know, if the business were bought, you would, they have to see that you’re making a salary that would compete with, like if you went to get a job, would you make $80,000 a year? Would you make $30,000 a year? No, you would probably make mid to high six figures. You have to be able to pay yourself at that level. You have to have profitability. Like those things are the things that you should be focused on. And if you do that and you never sell your business, you’re still okay. Correct. Because you’ve funded your retirement and you’ve paid for the things that are going to support your lifestyle. Chip Griffin: Correct. And you weren’t miserable in the process. I mean, you know, look, it’s often said that life is short. You don’t know what the future holds. And so, you know, are you happy to spend five or 10 years being miserable because you think right, that maybe someday, maybe someday you’ll be able to sell for some big number. Gini Dietrich: No. No. Chip Griffin: Why would you do that? No, and and I’m not, I’m not some woo woo, Oh, you know, you, you have to be happy and everything, and Gini Dietrich: You’re definitely not. Chip Griffin: It’s all sunshine and unicorns and all of that. I mean, no, no. I mean, even if you follow my, my Build to Own approach, you’re still gonna have some. Really miserable days as a business owner. Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: It’s not all going to be fun. Mm-hmm. You have to do a lot of things you do not want to do. You do not enjoy. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: However, those should be in the minority and they certainly shouldn’t be because you’re doing something with the sole objective of maybe someday selling. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah, that’s absolutely true. It’s funny you say that because I had a miserable Friday last week and today is Monday when we’re recording this and I feel much better. But yeah, I mean, you’re not, I, I love my job. I love what we do. I love what we’re building, but it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. That’s life. Chip Griffin: That’s life. It’s entrepreneurship. It’s, it’s the risk and the stress that I talk about. It’s, it’s all of those things. But you can still structure it in a way. Yes. That gets you more of what you want. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And is not following someone else’s formula for success. Right. Or what someone else might be interested in potentially buying. Yes. Is figuring out what works for you? What gives you what you need and want from the business? And I think if you’re, if you spend your time looking at those and evaluating all of the decisions you make in your business, whether that’s, you know, what kinds of clients you’re pursuing, what sectors you’re working in, the service mix that you provide, the people that you hire to be around you, how you compensate yourself, all of these decisions should be looked at through that frankly rather selfish lens. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Of what you want as an owner. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Because it, it will not only make you happier, it will likely make you have a better business. Because if you’re just implementing someone else’s plan, you’re not gonna be as committed to it as something where you can understand, I’m doing this for me, I’m doing this for my family. I’m doing this to get what I want from my business. Gini Dietrich: And if you’re implementing somebody else’s plan, just go work for somebody else, Chip Griffin: right? Gini Dietrich: There’s no reason to have all the risk and flood and sweat and tears, like just go work for someone else. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it is really, if you’re going to be an owner, you have to have an owner’s mindset. Yeah. You can’t have an employee’s mindset as an owner because that you, you’ll just, you’ll fail and you will feel miserable at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: That’s not a good combination. Gini Dietrich: I, I think, I mean, I’m sure Jen will include the link to your article in the show notes. It was, it’s really well done. I read it and I was like, we need to talk about this because it’s, it really helps you change that mindset from building a business to sell it and versus building a business to own it. And I think you still can absolutely, to your point, still sell it someday, but you’ll be much happier if you’re building a business to own it right now. Chip Griffin: Imagine if the, if the sale is the gravy, right? Imagine if you’ve already stockpiled your nest egg and you know, I don’t have to sell. I mean, first of all, that takes the pressure off you. You can negotiate a much better deal if you’re not forced into doing it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And we all know this, right? I mean Yep. Anytime you can walk away from a deal, you’re likely to get better terms. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So, so if you can say, look, I’m confident. Now take it or leave it, buddy. This is, this is what you’re gonna have to pay me for this business. This is what you’re gonna have to give me in terms of an earnout and an employment agreement and all of those kinds of things. And if you don’t, that’s fine. Yeah, I’m still good. I can walk away. Good. Right. Imagine how much more powerful that is. And imagine now you’re thinking about your sale as something that allows you to do something maybe extra special with your retirement as opposed to just having a comfortable one. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I mean, I’ll take that any day of the week. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: With that, I hope, hope you had a good day of the week by listening to us. That was kind of a tortured wrap up, but you know, it is what it is. We constructed some good ideas for you today. I dunno, we just, we, Gini Dietrich: no terrible. No, no. Chip Griffin: We’re just gonna let this go here. So with that, we’ll wrap up this episode. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

S4 Capital has announced a revolutionary new pricing model that will transform how agencies charge for their services: instead of billable hours, they’re moving to… subscriptions. Fixed monthly fees. Annual contracts that auto-renew. All costs absorbed into the price rather than passed through as variables. You know, retainers. The pricing model most independent agencies have used for decades. In this episode (somewhat abbreviated due to Gini’s technical difficulties), Chip and Gini dissect the holding company’s “brilliant innovation” with the appropriate level of sarcasm, then pivot to the more interesting question buried in the announcement: how should agencies price around AI? The conversation moves from eye-rolling at repackaged retainer models to wrestling with legitimate uncertainty about how AI costs will evolve and what that means for agency pricing strategies. Chip points out that we only know what AI costs today, and it’s likely those costs will rise as platforms realize they’re replacing expensive labor and can charge accordingly. This creates a pricing puzzle—do you transparently pass through AI costs, absorb them into your general cost of doing business, or find some middle ground? Gini shares how she’s handling questions from college students about whether jobs will exist when they graduate, explaining that the work itself is shifting from doing to orchestrating, from creating to editing and refining AI outputs. The discussion highlights the difference between cosmetic changes (calling retainers “subscriptions”) and substantive challenges (figuring out sustainable pricing as AI capabilities and costs both increase). They land on the principle that AI costs should be factored into your total cost of doing business rather than line-itemized separately, giving you flexibility to adapt as the landscape shifts without locking yourself into specific cost structures that may not hold. The subtext throughout is that holding companies remain out of touch with how most agencies actually operate, still discovering “innovations” that the rest of the industry implemented years ago. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “We only know what AI costs us today. As AI becomes more and more of a labor replacement, the vendors understand that the value that they’re creating for you is going up. Just as you want to charge your clients more because you’re providing more value, they want to charge you more because they’re providing you more value.” Gini Dietrich: “The job that I had when I graduated from college is not the job that you’ll have when you graduate from college. Those things are going to be done by AI. What you are going to be doing is sort of orchestrating your orchestra of AI bots.” Chip Griffin: “AI has come a long way in the last year. It doesn’t mean that everything that it does should be immediately blasted out to the universe. Sometimes the tone isn’t quite right, or maybe it misses the point slightly because you didn’t give it enough information to begin with.” Gini Dietrich: “Just like you would absorb an employee’s salary into your hourly rates or retainers or however you’re doing your pricing, that same thing. The AI needs to be absorbed into that.” Resources ‘The billable hour does not allow for any meaningful innovation': S4 Capital builds subscription model for the AI age (Digiday article) Related Structuring retainers for long-term profitability Understanding pricing models for your agency's services 9 ways to price your agency's services Choosing the right pricing model for your agency's services View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think I wanna subscribe to your wisdom. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, you know, pay you retainer or anything like that. I wanna subscribe. Gini Dietrich: Oh okay, sure. $1 million a week. Chip Griffin: $1 million a week? I don’t know. Yes. I mean, even, even for you, that might be, that might be a little bit much. Gini Dietrich: It’ll be worth it. I promise. I promise. I’ll give you some benchmarks. It’ll be, it’ll be worth it. Chip Griffin: Oh, some benchmarks. Oh, well, I mean, as long as there are some benchmarks. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: That’s really, you gimme some pretty charts to show that. Absolutely. That you’re achieving those benchmarks, I assume. Gini Dietrich: Yes, absolutely. I’ll, yes, 100%. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Okay. Well, that, that should solve it. That’s, that’s good for me. If it’s good for you and so, you know. Let’s do it. Gini Dietrich: Amazing. Yay. That was easy. Chip Griffin: Yay. Gini Dietrich: No, I don’t have to work anymore. Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about pricing today. We’re gonna talk about how you charge for your services and it seems like we’ve talked about this a lot, but, but now we have a brilliant new idea being foisted upon us from holding company land. Gini Dietrich: Brilliant is sarcastic, by the way. Chip Griffin: Where all of the ideas come from. I mean. Holding company mind. I think every, every good idea and innovation in the agency world has come from a holding company, hasn’t it? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think, I think you’re right. Yep. Yes. Chip Griffin: And it’s always, it’s always very original thinking that we can expect from the holding companies. Gini Dietrich: Uhhuh. Yes. Chip Griffin: So that’s what we have to discuss today. We have the proclamation from none other, none other than S4 Capital. S4 Capital, for those of you who don’t know, is I think, didn’t they originally describe themselves as like the non holding company holding company or something like that? Gini Dietrich: They did, yes. Chip Griffin: They tried to pretend Gini Dietrich: they did Chip Griffin: That they’re not really a holding company. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: They’re still a holding company folks. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And so what we are being told is that we should move away from the billable hour to a subscription model. Ugh. Now this wild innovation is something that has never been considered before, so I’m glad they’ve brought this to the table. Certainly we’ve never heard of retainers in the agency world. Gini Dietrich: No. Never. Mm-hmm. Nope. Chip Griffin: So this must be different than a retainer, correct? Gini Dietrich: Um, nope. Chip Griffin: No. Gini Dietrich: I mean, when I dug into it, it’s, it’s essentially a retainer. Essentially. Chip Griffin: So the brand new. Innovative idea from holding company land? Mm-hmm. Is that, that we should have retainers and not billable hours? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think the difference that they’re trying to expound, expel, expound upon, expand upon is that, it’s renewable every year, so you don’t have contracts. It’s the same amount every month. Retainer. Mm-hmm. And there was one other piece. Hang on. I, I wrote it down. One year terms, it renews every month. It’s, it’s not a fixed checklist. So eventually you get more output over time, especially if you’re allowed to use AI. And it allows you to absorb costs. So instead of you doing a pass through on expenses, it just absorbs it into that and you, you still pass it through, but it absorbs it instead of doing it one off because procurement doesn’t like variable pass through costs. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Gini Dietrich: So those were the big things in the subscription model versus the hourly bill hourly model. Chip Griffin: Gosh, I, I mean, I, I really hate to break it to them, but that’s how I’ve run every one of my agency businesses for a quarter of a century. Gini Dietrich: For years. Yeah. Chip Griffin: I mean, I consider myself a relatively innovative guy, but I, I don’t, I don’t claim to have invented that, so I’m, I’m not gonna sue them for doing this. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Because I came up with it first. I certainly didn’t, but I think, I think if they did a little bit of research, they would find this is actually a pretty common way Yes. To do business if you are not a holding company. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Yes. Chip Griffin: I think this is one of those circumstances where the holding companies have got their blinders on Uhhuh. They’ve, they, they drink their own Kool-Aid. They focus only on the way that they do things. And yes, holding companies do a lot of dumb stuff, particularly on the advertising side. They, they like to use billable hours. They like to do pass through expenses with dramatic markups. They like to take kickbacks from publishers and websites in order to place advertising there. Mm-hmm. They do all sorts of stuff. Mm-hmm. That I think is a really bad idea. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: So I guess maybe we should be encouraged by the fact that they’re going to act in a way that’s a little bit more normal. I don’t think it’s gonna help them. I think all of the struggling that we’ve seen holding companies go through in recent years is only gonna continue because the holding company model is a bad model. Yeah. It is a broken model. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And you, you can only put so much makeup on it and try to make it look good. It’s just not gonna happen. Gini Dietrich: It’s, I mean, I read it and my first instinct was, I think I even said to you, oh, so it’s a retainer. And then I, I dug deeper and I read the comments and I read the article and like I dug deeper and I was like, yeah, this is not, it’s not anything that, to your point, that those of us who have run, been running agencies for years, granted not gigantic ones, but those of us who have been doing it, that’s, that’s how I do it. I have annual contracts that renew, unless you send me a letter saying we’re done. We have a monthly retainer, we have a, you know, we, there is work that compounds over time because we get smarter about your business and yeah, we’re using AI for certain things and there is some heavy lifting up front to get things started. So yeah, it compounds over time. Like all of those things are, are true. It’s called a retainer. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and look, I, I mean, I would have more respect if they said, you know, look, in order to, to meet. Where the clients are at in today’s environment, we’re simply going to rename retainers as subscriptions. I, I could respect that. And, there is a case to be made that for a swath of clients, at least, they are more receptive to the word subscription than the word retainer, especially if they’re in tech. So if that’s what this was, that would be fine. But to pretend that it is a brand new way of doing things Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Is just laughable. Yeah. Now I do think in reading the Digiday piece that there, there is an interesting tangent that is not fully encapsulated in this thinking, but it, it opens a door that I think is worth discussing and is worth thinking about for agency owners. Agency leaders at, at every level we’re talking, holding companies or a, you know, a solo shop, and that is how you price around AI. Mm-hmm. And I think that there is currently a strong mindset that if you can do it with AI, this is from the client side, that if you can do it with AI, it ought to be cheaper. There’s a strong feeling from the agency side that if we do it with AI, we should still charge the exact same amount because it’s the value that we’re creating. As usual, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I think one of the real challenges, and it’s highlighted in the Digiday piece, is that we only know what AI costs us today. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: So we need to be really careful as we’re thinking about pricing. We need to keep a close eye on it because as I’ve said before on, on this show and elsewhere, I think it is likely that the cost of AI will go up over time. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: That, that we’re, right now, we are in this adoption phase where typically things are underpriced to get people hooked essentially on it. Mm-hmm. So we’ve all seen what we can do with AI, but as AI becomes more and more of a labor replacement, the vendors understand that the value that they’re creating for you is going up. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so just as you want to charge your clients more, because you’re providing more value, they want to charge you more because they’re providing you more value. Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: On top of that, the cost of actually doing all of this continues to go up. And yes, they’re becoming more efficient in some of the models and that sort of thing so that they can balance the quality and the cost. But, but nevertheless, it’s likely that over time the cost is gonna continue to rise. So if they’re gonna have a smaller margin, they’re gonna make up for it by fixing that margin, by charging you more. Yep. So regardless of how you get there, you are going to be charge, be paying more for AI in five years than you are today. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So, so you do need to be thinking about how you are structuring AI and in particular the Digiday piece put out there, the, the thought of are you transparent about what the AI costs are or do you just consider that part of your cost of doing business? And I, I think this is, there is a lot of room for meaty conversations in the, the coming months and years trying to figure out how to tackle this most appropriately. Gini Dietrich: It’s funny you say that because I’ve been doing a lot of speaking virtually to juniors and seniors in colleges, in college classes. And one of the question that continues to come up is, and I think it’s really interesting that they’re talking about this at school, which is smart, but it continues to come up, is, is there a job for me when I graduate from college? And my answer has been the job that I had when I graduated from college is not the job that you’ll have when you graduate from college. Like, you’re not gonna stand at the copier and make clipbooks, you’re not going to open Bacon’s books and make media lists. You’re probably not gonna make media lists at all. You’re not gonna make clipbooks at all. You’re not going to, you probably, you may not even be pitching media. Like those things are, are going to be done by AI. What you are going to be doing is sort of orchestrating your, or conducting your orchestra of AI bots, so you have to understand how to prompt accurately, how to give it the right kinds of input so that you get the right output. How to edit its work, you know, those are the kinds of things that you have to understand. And so when you think about, to your point, what this is going to cost, it may not cost the same as a full-time employee. It may not cost the same as five full-time employees, but it’s going to cost you something, and that has to be… Just like you would absorb an employee’s salary into your, your however hourly rates or retainers or however you’re doing your pricing, that same thing. The AI needs to be absorbed into that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think, I think ultimately, I mean, first of all, I would agree with you on the, the first jobs thing. If I think back to my first job, in an agency as a junior account executive, I can’t think of more than 5% of my job that I did back then that, that today Yeah. Can still be done. And, and some of it’s because of AI’s not just, you know, technology has Sure. Has improved. I mean, nobody’s standing there at the photocopier. That’s nothing to do with AI. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But, you know, good luck finding a photocopier most of the time, even if you need one. And so, you know, those are the, the kinds of things technology has, has completely replaced a lot of what we did. And AI is just accelerating that even further. So certainly those kinds of jobs are not there. And, and I think that it’s fair to say that, that a college graduate going to work for the first time in an agency is, is really going in from a functional level at a, at about a level above where, where you and I started back in the day. And so fundamentally that means the skill sets are different, right? Because when you, when you’re that level up, you are doing more editing than creating, you are doing more guiding than doing. It doesn’t mean that you’ve gone, you know, completely all the way to being just a manager. You know, not people aren’t just gonna jump right in and just be managers. Let’s be realistic here. You do. But the, the kinds of things that you’re doing require a different skillset than what we needed going in. Because we weren’t doing a lot of editing of other people’s work. We weren’t doing a lot of guiding and checking and, and all of that kind of stuff. We had someone else who was doing that to our work. Now, now you have to know how to do that effectively and to your point. And it’s, it’s not just about the prompting. It’s understanding what you’re getting back and then how to re-prompt, how to tweak, how to get the most out of it, how to make sure that it actually makes sense, whatever’s come back. Because I mean, AI has come a long way in the last year. It doesn’t mean that everything that it does should be immediately blasted out to the universe. And that’s not just because of factual stuff. It may be just sometimes the tone isn’t quite right, or, or maybe it misses the point slightly because you didn’t give it enough information to begin with, and so you need to be able to look at it and have that level of judgment to understand when you need to apply human editing or when you need to ask the, the AI to take another stab at it or to do whatever you need to do to get the quality that the client is expecting. And I think, but it, it needs to be priced into your, your total cost of doing business, single invoice, not separate line items for all of this. Because I think to you, as soon as you start getting into, to separate line items for it, you put yourself in a difficult position to adapt as needed. And the reality is that none of us really knows what the, the innards of an agency in 24 or 36 months is gonna look like. We all have pretty good guesses, right? I mean, but, but the reality is we just don’t know for sure. And so we can’t put ourselves in a box by specifying here’s what it costs or say, Hey, we’re just gonna pass through these costs for the markup or those kinds of things. It needs to be factored into your cost of doing business. And on that note, I think we’ve provided some good food for thought and hopefully you’ll be able to think about pricing in perhaps a way that is a little more. I don’t know, rational, thoughtful, and more usable than what the holding companies are currently thinking or maybe have ever thought. But any case, I’m Chip Griffin for myself and Gini Dietrich. This has been another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast, and it depends.

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0En esta tertulia de Itnig, Bernat y Jordi arrancan hablando del rumor publicado sobre una posible ronda de Factorial, aclarando qué hay de verdad detrás de esa noticia y aprovechando para explicar cómo piensan hoy sobre financiación, independencia, liquidez para inversores y por qué levantar capital no siempre significa necesitarlo. También entran en cómo se leen ahora las valoraciones en un mercado cada vez más arbitrario, especialmente cuando una empresa consigue ser percibida como “IA” y no simplemente como software. A partir de ahí, la conversación entra de lleno en cómo la inteligencia artificial está transformando el producto y el desarrollo de software, desde asistentes de código hasta agentes que ejecutan workflows, aprenden políticas y acaban asumiendo cada vez más decisiones dentro del producto. Hay una reflexión muy interesante sobre productividad, velocidad de ejecución, cuellos de botella humanos y por qué el verdadero reto ya no es solo programar más rápido, sino entender mejor al usuario y diseñar experiencias que realmente aporten valor. La tertulia también dedica bastante tiempo al lado más incómodo de esta ola: el compliance, la protección de datos y el uso descontrolado de herramientas como OpenAI o Anthropic en el trabajo. Hablan de empleados pagando modelos de su bolsillo, de empresas preocupadas por el uso de datos confidenciales, de las tensiones entre GDPR, NIS2 y monitorización, y de cómo muchas organizaciones todavía están muy lejos de la burbuja tech aunque el cambio ya les esté alcanzando igualmente. Y además se abre el foco hacia el contexto más amplio de la industria: las nuevas rondas europeas en IA, el papel de los datacenters y la energía, la situación de Europa frente a Estados Unidos y China, y por qué compañías como Cloudflare se están convirtiendo en capas clave de la nueva infraestructura de internet y de los agentes.Una tertulia especialmente completa para entender hacia dónde se mueve el software, qué oportunidades1 está abriendo la IA y qué fricciones reales van a aparecer por el camino.

Jochen Siegert und André Bajorat liefern die wichtigsten News des Monats. Es geht um Übernahmekandidat PayPal, den ersten Exit seit langem und Massenentlassungen wegen KI.

The private sector is growing, and so is the competition. With low barriers to entry and clients cycling in and out of programs, you need a strong business strategy to stand out and build staying power. Gini Grimsley draws on her experience across commercial fitness and National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) leadership to address top questions coaches are asking: Where is the smartest place to start? How do you set your rates? How do you grow a client base in a new community? Grimsley distinguishes between being certified and being qualified, noting credentials open the door while applied experience takes you further. She introduces a framework for “periodizing your paycheck,” reverse-engineering income goals into a viable revenue model. Grimsley also outlines how to integrate into established communities and balance hybrid in-person and online coaching. If you are exploring the private sector or refining your approach, gain practical strategies to find your niche and achieve career flexibility. Reach out to Gini on Instagram: @gdotgperiod, LinkedIn: @gini-grimsley-ms-cscs, or by email: trainwithgini@gmail.com | Find Eric on Instagram: @ericmcmahoncscs and LinkedIn: @ericmcmahoncscs Make sure your voice is represented in the profession. Join an NSCA Professional Development Group (PDG) to influence the resources and decisions that impact your segment of the field.Show Notes“We're all trying to do the same thing and getting people moving and performing at a very high level because of the carryover that it does have, whether they're performing on the court, or I like to say, performing in the boardroom.” 9:25 “There's all these apps that are coming into play. So not even online coaching, it's just fitness for the masses. And it's always kind of been like that. You go back to the '80s, it was the aerobics tapes that people were buying and doing. And this is the evolution of that, but people start and stop programs more often than we really care for them to and the health outcomes reflect that. […] How do we get people hooked on fitness in a way that meets them where they are and helps them get to where they want to be in a realistic sense, versus trying to get someone to high performance?” 15:30 “You can't become a good leader until you've become a good follower. And the same thing applies to personal trainers. You can't be a good personal trainer until you experience what good personal training, good coaching actually is.” 18:15

Este episodio está patrocinado por MyTrafficAnaliza ubicaciones, flujo peatonal, tráfico y potencial comercial en segundos con Gini, la herramienta conversacional de MyTraffic.Disfruta de –10 % en la versión Pro con el código ITNIGPruébalo gratis ahoraDescubre más en la web de MyTraffic o haciendo clic en este enlace : https://hubs.ly/Q044FdNW0En esta tertulia nos metemos en un problema muy real que casi nadie cuenta: la “IT de verdad” en empresas que crecen. Qué pasa cuando el CTO/CEO acaba comprando portátiles, configurando accesos “por accidente”, y de golpe llegan requisitos de compliance (certificaciones, controles, auditorías) y te das cuenta de que has perdido el control de tus dispositivos. El equipo de Factorial explica cómo están montando Factorial IT para resolverlo, y cómo ese cambio te obliga a profesionalizar procesos que en muchas compañías están montados con parches (o directamente con caos).A partir de ahí entramos en lo que viene: agentes que dejan de “responder” para empezar a “hacer”. Hablamos de Factorial One como asistente conectado al conocimiento interno y su siguiente paso: voz + cursor que navega la plataforma, clicando y enseñando paso a paso (no como caja negra), porque el usuario quiere control y aprender mientras configura. También bajamos a tierra la infraestructura y trade-offs: latencia, proveedores, idiomas y números (del orden de ~5 céntimos/minuto por toda la cadena de voz). Y extendemos esto a todo el lifecycle: onboarding a gran escala (miles), discovery, demo y upsell.Luego abrimos el plano “macro”: si todo software quiere convertirse en tu coworker, ¿quién controla la interfaz y el poder cuando hay pocos players? ¿Qué significa realmente “créditos/tokens” y cómo se subvencionan modelos de uso? ¿Qué hay detrás del debate de destilación y modelos chinos, y por qué se mezcla con regulación y seguridad? Cerramos con una parte muy práctica sobre cómo están construyendo producto con Spec-Driven Development (specs/skills, contexto, verificación) y un tramo final de side projects y recursos para estar al día.

The PESO Model has been guiding smart communications strategies for over a decade, but the tactical landscape underneath it keeps shifting. In the latest evolution, Gini and her team have completely revamped the PESO Model Certification to address how AI and large language models are fundamentally changing visibility in 2026. In this episode, Chip interviews Gini about the newly updated certification and what’s changed in how organizations should think about paid, earned, shared, and owned media. The conversation centers on “visibility engineering”—the intersection of owned and earned media where LLMs are scraping information and making decisions about who appears in AI-generated answers. Gini explains why owned media remains the foundation (without content on your own properties, there’s nothing to demonstrate to journalists, creators, or LLMs what you’re about), but the recommended path has shifted from owned-then-earned-or-shared to a more deliberate owned-then-earned-then-shared-then-paid sequence. This evolution reflects how AI systems verify information by comparing what’s on your website against what credible third parties say about you. They also tackle the persistent “X is dead” headlines that plague the industry—whether it’s websites, PR, or press releases. Chip and Gini push back hard on the notion that websites are becoming irrelevant, pointing out that your owned content hub becomes more valuable in an AI-driven world, not less. It’s your source of truth, the fuel for custom AI assistants, and the foundation that persists even as social platforms come and go. The conversation covers practical questions about implementing PESO in smaller agencies, whether you need to be full-service to deliver on all four pillars, and how the certification meets communicators at different experience levels—from college students to seasoned professionals. If you’ve been treating PESO as just four columns of tactics rather than an operating system for communications, this episode clarifies what you’re missing. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Owned is still the foundation because without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different.” Chip Griffin: “In a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing.” Gini Dietrich: “We are in a zero click world. And so how does that affect the work that we’re doing? It’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up no matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information.” Chip Griffin: “Having your content in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos because that is the fuel for that tool.” Turn ideas into action Audit where your owned content actually lives. Open a spreadsheet and list every place you’ve published content over the past two years—your website, Medium, Substack, LinkedIn articles, guest posts, anywhere. Mark which platforms you own versus rent. This awareness exercise reveals how vulnerable your content strategy is to platform changes and algorithm shifts. Map one content piece through all four PESO pillars. Take your next webinar, speaking engagement, or major thought leadership piece and plan the full PESO path before you execute: owned content on your site summarizing key insights, pitching earned media opportunities based on those insights, creating social distribution that doesn’t just promote but educates, and identifying where paid amplification makes strategic sense. This forces you to think about PESO as an integrated operating system rather than disconnected tactics. Dive deeper into the PESO Model. Visit spinsucks.com/peso-model-certification to learn more about the newly updated certification program. Whether you’re looking to formalize your team’s approach to integrated communications or simply understand how the model has evolved for the AI era, the certification provides a structured path from foundational concepts through practical implementation. Resources For more on the PESO model, visit the Spin Sucks website Related Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? How PR agencies can use the PESO Model to improve client retention How to allocate your client's PESO budget Wake up or get left behind: AI is forcing your hand View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’ve heard that you might be involved with this thing, I think it’s called the PESO Model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, maybe. Chip Griffin: You may you use that, right? That’s, yeah. Just you found it and you said this should, this is something we should use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Something I just found and thought we should use it. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah, no, in all fairness, you are in fact the inventor of the PESO model, which is widely used throughout the PR and communications world, and it has been evolving with the times as we all should be. And so I, I think we have some, some new news that you’ve been sharing around the PESO model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, according to a couple of people on the internet, it has not evolved at all because they are not able to use Google or AI to say, has the PESO model evolved since 2014? Perhaps. It has. And you know, all of last year I spent a good amount of time, especially on the blog and the Spin Sucks podcast, talking about visibility engineering, which is where owned and earned media meet because that’s where the LLMs are getting their information, right. We’re finding more and more that they’re scrubbing websites and then they’re comparing that to earned media, to the things that media not, and not just traditional media, newsletters, podcasts, things like that, that they’re saying about the brand and looking to see if they match. And if they do, then they’re appearing. You’re, you start to appear in AI answers. So I spent a good amount of time last year exploring that and understanding that and, you know, using the blog and the podcast as my sandbox to learn more about it and teach the industry about it and understand what was happening. As part of that, I said, okay, it’s time to do a big refresh of the certification. Because we did the certification in 2020 and then we did a small update to it in 2024. And this one is a completely revamped certification that shows you how exactly AI is… how exactly you’re showing up in AI answers and doing that via the PESO model. So we start with owned, we go to earned, then we use shared and paid. There’s integration and measurement and it brings it all together. So I’m actually, I said to my team, not to brag, but this is really good. It’s a really, really good course. And we hired, last March I hired a chief learning officer who has helped me build it into something that’s more effective for an adult learner. So it’s really specific to, you know, you can get the work done while you’re also a working professional. So she has done a really nice job of bringing that element into it. It has AI prompts so that you can use the PESO AI that we built to help you do the work. And it’s, it’s pretty good. I’m, I’m really proud of it. I’m really proud of the work we did. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, it really is something that, that fuels most communication thinking in smart organizations today, whether that’s agency side, client side, that sort of thing. Now it’s not always as well understood it should be. Some people just throw the term around. A little bit willy-nilly. Yes. You know, without really thinking it through. Of course there are other people who claim that it’s also their invention, which is, you know, but we’re not gonna go down that path ’cause we’re staying positive today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. We’re gonna stay positive. Positive, yes. Chip Griffin: But I think to, you know, to me, one of the things that, when I look at the PESO model, I think is, you know, it’s great because it is an overall set of principles and framework that is effectively timeless when it comes to communications. And then it’s the implementation side of it. The tactical side of it. That’s the piece that needs to evolve. The, I mean, the four letters are still the same. It’s not like you, right? Yes. The evolution has not been to change PESO to something else. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: It, it’s really just saying. Okay. All of these different components, the paid, earned, shared, and owned have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so how we implement it needs to adapt to that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s very much, I mean, when we did it in 2020, it was very much like how, how you’re using content marketing really to inform your contributed content through earned and then sharing that link through, through social and then putting some money behind it to boost it. And that was, you know, that was six years ago, and it worked back then, right? It’s still, social still worked from the perspective that you could post a link and people would follow that path back to your website. Well, people don’t do that anymore. You know, we are in a zero click world. And so how do, how does that affect the work that we’re doing? So, you’re right, the paid, earned, shared, and owned doesn’t change. That model stays the same. It’s the pieces on top that, that have evolved. And so now it’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up. No matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information, we show up no matter what. And it’s really, that’s what it’s really about is how do you engineer that visibility? How do you make sure that you’re showing up in the right places at the right time to the right people? Chip Griffin: And so if you’re, if you’re thinking about leaning into the PESO model for your communications needs. You know, where should you be starting today? Is it owned? Is it social? Is it, you know, how, has it changed? If at all from that standpoint over the last decade? Gini Dietrich: Owned is still the foundation because without anything, without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different. So that’s the foundation. There’s nothing do than to just create that distribution layer through shared, and there’s certainly nothing to amplify through paid. So that’s always been the foundation. There are of course exceptions if you’re selling widgets or your, you have an Amazon store or something like that, then I would probably start with paid, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the most part, most organizations need to start with owned. And we used to say that then you could go to earned or shared. Depending on your goals. Now we’re saying actually the best path for engineering that visibility is owned, then earned because you need that credibility, so the LLMs can cite that information. Then you build your distribution layer, and then you amplify your work. Chip Griffin: So I, think what I’m hearing you say is that websites are not dead despite all of these, you know, headlines that you like to see people’s, Gini Dietrich: No, they are not. Chip Griffin: The, the rise of LLM, websites are dead. You’re not even gonna need a website in five years. Gini Dietrich: No, we still need a website because otherwise the LLMs don’t have anywhere to get the information about you. Humans don’t have any, I mean, we still go to websites. We might not go, you know, a direct click like we used to, but we still go to websites to get information. So yeah, you still need a website. I hate the, such and such is dead. The PR, there’s one that PR is dead right now. Like PR is not dead. Come on. You can’t do, you’re not going to show up in AI answers if without PR. So PR is not dead. Chip Griffin: No, the X is dead has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to, I mean, that, that really is something that, that took off during the start of the social media era. Yeah. Whether it was the press release is dead. This is dead, whatever. I mean, and, you know. Just, it’s not true. I mean, we, you know, I always used to say back 20 years ago, you know, people used to say that radio was dead. Radio is still very much around, and radio is still around in certain forms. I mean, when I’m driving around, I listen to radio. Yes. Is it terrestrial radio? No, it’s satellite radio. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But guess what? It’s still radio. Gini Dietrich: It’s still radio. Yep. Chip Griffin: Right. Podcasts are effectively radio. Transmitted in a different fashion. Yep. And so, you know, I think that the people need to understand that the underlying technology may evolve, some of the tools will evolve, but Gini Dietrich: absolutely Chip Griffin: the, principles and concepts will largely remain the same. Doesn’t mean that everything stays. Yeah, certainly some things, you know, do go away, or become so small that they’re irrelevant, but you know, I think we need to be careful about those things. And, to me, with a website, to me, the other value is it still is a great place to be the central repository of all your information as all of these things change around you. I mean, if, for the last 10 or 15 years you’ve been using your website as your content hub and housing at least your most important, most valuable stuff there, it doesn’t matter whether medium or substack comes or goes. It doesn’t matter whether people move from X to LinkedIn to whatever. Yep. You still have a source of truth for your own information, which becomes even more valuable in the world of AI and LLMs. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I mean, we, have preached for years, we’ve all preached for years that you should not build an audience or content on rented land because to exactly your point, the rented land goes away. X has become something that nobody wants to hang out on. We’ve moved to LinkedIn. Lots of people have moved to Substack. So, those pieces will change. So don’t, I think that theory, philosophy stays the same. Because you have, you are building something that you own, that you control, and allows you to control that narrative and be, tell the story the way you want to, and then you rent that out to other places versus building on rented land where it will go away. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that there are a lot of avenues that are opening up to organizations with, you know, particularly those that have more content already, but also by building it up. And I think in particular of the AI assistant I built on the SAGA website. Mm-hmm. Yep. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos and that kind of stuff because that is the fuel for that tool. Yep. And, and if I was trying to do it based off of, see what you can find that I’ve posted on LinkedIn or Twitter or things over the years, and it’s just not gonna work. And so having that in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I was talking to a client last week and she said that one of the goals for 2026 is they have 17 different brands. So each brand has its own chief executive. And what she has, what she wants, the comms team for each of those brands to do is build an AI agent that helps them with that CEO’s voice. And they can’t do that without content. They can’t do it without the executives’ speeches, webinars, podcasts, appearances, media relations, like they have to have all of that content, blog posts that they’ve written or articles that they’ve written for the website. They have to have that to be able to feed that and train the AI. So without it, they don’t have any, to your point, fuel that will allow them to do that. So 100% that is accurate. Chip Griffin: So as, we’re thinking about implementing PESO properly, so not just, I heard the term, it sounds cool. I made a list of four columns of each, and I just started just chucking stuff in there. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I mean, how do I go about learning it the right way? And I’m, you know, we’re not turning this into a QVC Gini Dietrich: Are you throwing me a softball? Chip Griffin: you know, show here. But at the same time, I, think it is valuable for people to understand what is out there in a more formal sense, to understand and, adopt the process for their own organization. Gini Dietrich: I mean, obviously the PESO model certification is the place to get the information because one of the, one of the things we see is exactly what you said, that people create their four columns and they say, okay, well we’ve got some content and we’re doing some media relations, and we’re throwing that on social. And all right, we’ll put some, budget behind some of our organic social, and we’ve got the PESO model. And that’s, not the PESO model, that’s a list of tactics. So what the certification does is it walks you through exactly. There’s this, a scientific layer to it. It walks you through that scientific layer that allows you to embed an operating system, that let that foundation of your work so that as things evolve and the industry changes and your business goals change, you’re able to change the tactics on top of it. We also hear, well, gosh, my, you know, my clients can’t afford to do a full PESO program, so what should I do? And in fact, they can afford it. You’re just thinking about it as this huge, overwhelming thing. And so the certification walks you through if you’re a solopreneur or a small agency, that walks you through if you’re a midsize, and it walks you through if you’re a large corporation or an enterprise organization. And I will say for small organizations, which are most of our listeners. It’s really about how do you take one piece of content and repurpose it. So let’s say that you do a webinar. How do you take that webinar and create some content around it that, from what the webinar was, not promoting it, not trying to get registrations, but saying, okay, here’s what we learned in the webinar. So we’re gonna create some how-to or thoughtful content for that. And then we’re gonna take pieces of the webinar and we’re gonna break it down for social posts. And then yeah, we’re gonna put some money behind some of it. And we’re also gonna go to some of our trade media and we’re gonna say, Hey, listen, our subject matter expert or our chief executive just did this webinar and here’s what they talked about. Are you interested in some contributed content? So it allows you to do that in a really interesting, effective way without you having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or have a large team. You can do it without a lot of resources. I mean I built the PESO model framework for my agency and we were not, at the time, a big agency. Mm-hmm. So that’s what it was built for, is to make it so that we could do more with less and do more with less resources and, less time and less people and less budget and all the things. So it is definitely, definitely feasible. So that’s what it teaches you how to do. Chip Griffin: So I, you know, I think one of the other concerns that, some particularly smaller agencies have when it comes to PESO is not just the, clients and their budget, but, their own capabilities and, you know, so is it realistic for a small agency to be able to, you know, deliver? We, we talk all the time about being careful about being a full service agency. Yep. But to, implement PESO, do you have to be a full service agency? Gini Dietrich: You do not. That’s the other thing that the certification walks you through is if you have the capability yourself in house. Or you yourself can do it. Then here’s how you do it. If you are building it for an external team or an external agency, here’s how you do it. If the client has a team that can do it, here’s what you’re going to do to build the strategy and the creative brief, and then you’ll hand it off. But here’s what is expected for. Here’s, what’s expected of you to deliver, and here’s what the expectation is for the output from the client team or the agency team, whatever happens to be. So it has those three paths depending on where you are. So yeah, that’s a really good point. It doesn’t the, certification expects you to, build the plan and the strategy, and then based on where you are, it meets you where you are. So if, you have a team that you can execute or that you can delegate it to, great. If your client has a team you can delegate it to great. But it meets you where you are so that you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to be the strategist, you don’t have to be the influencer, but you do have to build the plan and the strategic path to be able to help the team get there. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, let’s talk through some of the logistics around the certification. I mean, how long does it take to get certified? Is this, you know, I, do a weekend course and I’m done. Is it an ongoing process? Is it, you know, is it the equivalent of a master’s degree? I gonna spend two years with, you know, countless hours? What exactly does it look like? Gini Dietrich: It’s built to be done in eight weeks, but I will tell you that most working professionals do not do it that fast. I would say most working professionals do it between 10 and 12. Each module is, so you have the intro earned or owned, earned, shared, paid, integration, measurement, and then the operating system and how to embed that. So it’s eight modules and each module has between 6 and 12 lessons, and each lesson is like 8 to 10 minutes. So, you know, you’re looking at an hour to an hour and a half of learning of content and then you have the exercises for each lesson. So I would venture to guess it’s, you know, if you use the AI prompts effectively, that are in there, it’s between two to five hours a week probably. Chip Griffin: And, who is the certification best for? Is it someone who’s got, you know, prior experience, is this, Hey, I’m fresh outta college and I want to have this so I can use it to, you know, improve my, my job prospects. You know, what, kind of experience are they expected to have, or knowledge are they expected to have coming in? Gini Dietrich: It’s, we built it for any level of expertise. The interesting thing about it, of course, if you have more experience, it’s easier for you to grasp the concepts and implement it quickly. But we also use the certification in a hundred plus universities and the kids, the students go through it. So we find that they… It’s different for them because they have to use a fake business where you can use your own business or you can use your client’s business, right? They have to kind of create the business as they go. But it’s really fun to see what kinds of things come out of that. So it’s built for every level of expertise. It’s a different way of thinking about communications. So it’s not like you have to have 20 years of experience or only a year of experience. It’s because it’s teaching you something new. Chip Griffin: Gotcha. And is the, are the certifications only at the individual level? Are there agency certification programs? What exists in that frame? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we’ve, that, that’s a great question that we evolved too. So it used to be, it was individual based and now we’ve built it so that you can put a team through it, you can put the whole agency through it. The certification itself goes with the individual because it comes through Syracuse University. So it is, so if you have a team member that you wanna put through it, if they leave the certification goes with them. So you cannot say that you do the PESO model anymore if they leave. So we always recommend, I mean, you know, I’m an agency owner, so I’d love to see the agency owner themselves go through it, but I also know that that’s not always doable. So, but if you want the certification to stay with your agency, that’s the way to do it. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. And it, you know, I guess as, we’re winding up here, you know, where do you see the, PESO model headed in, the years, you know, in front of us? I would assume it will continue to evolve. Does your crystal ball tell you anything about, you know, what that evolution will look like? Gini Dietrich: It will continue to evolve. I have not looked into my crystal ball yet because I’ve been so heads down deep into developing the content for this that I haven’t been able to forward think yet, but I’m very much looking forward to being able to go back to my regular job and, start to think about the future, but I’m not there yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, guess that’s fair. I guess asking you for the, next version before this version is even fully out in the wild may, Gini Dietrich: I’ve literally been like blinders on, heads down, creating all of this content. Chip Griffin: I had to try at least, you know, see if I could get the inside a scoop on where the industry is headed so that I can… Gini Dietrich: Ask me in a month. Chip Griffin: I can get there before everybody else, or at least before everybody else accept you. Alright. If someone, wants to learn more about the PESO model or the certification or any of that kind of stuff, where’s, the best place for them to go for that? Gini Dietrich: I feel like we just did an interview. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that was not the intent going, but it made the most sense to me. And I, you know, me, I, follow the thread wherever it feels like it goes. That’s fair. Some of these were questions I actually didn’t know the answer to, so I thought I would ask them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Alright. spinsucks.com. There’s a PESO model certification page. I think it’s actually PESO-model-certification. Chip Griffin: You love your hyphens on that website. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know why it’s that way. That’s just what they do. Chip Griffin: Oh, well. Gini Dietrich: Ask our web firm. Chip Griffin: I’m, sure people can end up finding it. Gini Dietrich: PESO model certification. Spin sucks.com. Chip Griffin: There you go. Excellent. Well, I, think this was good information and I think we, you know, we do talk a lot about the importance of, you know, agencies continuing to adapt. Particularly in, in this age of AI. And, if we are standing still, you know, we are gonna lose our jobs to AI and the other enhancements and improvements that are out there. I think this is one of many ways that you can, make sure that you are not getting left behind and, so, certainly something that most agencies should be at the very least learning more about, if not actually directly implementing within their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, and, like I said, it has AI baked in, so if you’re still on the fence about AI, it’s a good way to dip your toes in the water. Chip Griffin: And if you’re still on the fence on AI, why? Gini Dietrich: It’s so much fun! Chip Griffin: It really is. It can be a time suck at times, but it’s, yeah. It’s also fun and, frankly useful. I mean, I think that’s the… But anyway, that when this is not an AI show, this is a PESO show. Gini Dietrich: Right. So, right, right. Chip Griffin: We, will come back and bash you on AI again in the future. Not, you, but you the listener. You the listener. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Alright. With that we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

En Luz de Sefarad avlamos de musheres eskritoras sefardim. Matilda Gini Barnatán es eskritora i investigadora del pazado djudió i sefardí, konta kon un lugar importante en Casa de Sefarad, en Córdoba. Sebastián de la Obra mos avla sovre esta sala de eskritoras destakadas i sus ovras. Artikolós de la autoría de Matilda Gini Barnatán de istoria de la Inkizisión en España i en el Río de la Plata, de la kultura i istoria de los ispano-evreos i de los sefardim, muncho más yena el universo de Matilda Gini Barnatán. Kolavoradora destakada en Luz de Sefarad i Kreadora de la Emisión Sefarad de Radio Exterior de España en 1986, tambyén konta kon su lugar de privilejio en Casa de Sefarad, en Córdoba (España). La memoria sefardí keda en la palavra oral i eskrita. Kurunamos este programa kon el kante litúrjiko "Non komo muestro Dió" (En Kelohenu), versión interpretada por Flory Jagoda.Escuchar audio

David C. Baker recently published a fascinating thought experiment about what he’d do if starting an agency from scratch today—and it’s packed with provocative ideas worth serious consideration. His article offers a comprehensive blueprint covering everything from organizational structure to compensation philosophy, and much of it aligns with how Chip and Gini think about building sustainable agencies. But the most interesting conversations happen when smart people disagree, which is why this episode focuses on the handful of points where Chip and Gini see things differently. Not because Baker’s ideas are bad, but because they expose the tension between aspirational agency management and the messy realities of running a business with real budgets, real people, and real client demands. In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle mandatory one-month sabbaticals for every employee, open-book finances published on your website, 360-degree reviews, and incentive compensation structures. They dig into why ideas that sound compelling in theory often create unintended consequences in practice—like how retention-based bonuses can fuel scope creep, or why forced sabbaticals don’t actually solve the single-point-of-failure problem they’re designed to address. The conversation reveals thoughtful nuance on both sides. Gini shares her brutal experience with anonymous feedback that backfired when presented poorly. Chip explains why he sees most performance measurement systems as “performance theater” while still advocating for more financial transparency with teams. They discuss the logistical nightmares of scheduling multiple month-long absences and why backup systems for unexpected departures matter more than planned time off. Throughout, they return to a central theme: what works brilliantly at one stage of growth can be completely wrong at another. The goal isn’t to declare Baker’s ideas right or wrong, but to test assumptions and recognize that even the most well-intentioned frameworks deserve scrutiny before implementation. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Really to deal with single points of failure, you need to be able to handle those unexpected absences, right? Someone has a family emergency, someone has a health issue. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna make sure you’ve handled.” Gini Dietrich: “When you’re constantly slacking or texting or calling while on vacation, and we don’t give you a response, it makes people angry. But what I’m trying to do is give you the time off because you deserve it and I want you to come back refreshed and ready to work.” Chip Griffin: “When you have incentive compensation, whether that is commissions or for hitting profit targets, the problem that you run into is people tend to focus on the thing that gets them the commission. It doesn’t mean that it’s good revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s profitable.” Gini Dietrich: “I subscribe to give ongoing feedback. You get feedback consistently. And when we’re in a meeting and I see something that you did really great or I see something that could use some work, I tell you that immediately.” Turn Ideas Into Action Read Baker’s full article and identify your three favorites. Don’t just focus on the disagreements—pull out the ideas that resonate most with your vision for your agency and commit to implementing one of them this quarter. The value in thought experiments like this isn’t picking sides, but using them to clarify what you actually want to build. Spend 30 minutes reading, then schedule time to test one concept that genuinely excites you. Identify your true single points of failure. List every critical role in your agency, then honestly assess what would happen if that person disappeared tomorrow without warning. Focus on unexpected absences—not planned sabbaticals—because those expose the real vulnerabilities. For each critical role, document who could cover the basics for 1-2 weeks while you figure out a longer-term solution. This takes less than an hour and protects you better than mandatory vacation policies. Replace annual reviews with ongoing feedback. If you currently do annual or 360-degree reviews, shift to giving immediate feedback when you observe something—positive or negative. Make it a two-sentence conversation: “That client presentation was excellent because you anticipated their objections” or “When you miss that deadline without communication, it creates problems for the team.” Save annual conversations for compensation changes and goal-setting, not for dumping a year’s worth of stored-up feedback all at once. Resources David C. Baker’s article If I Started A New Firm, Now Related Starting your own agency Should you force employees to take time off? Setting your agency's PTO, vacation, and leave policies Employee compensation essentials for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, we’re going back to a place that we’ve used for inspiration before. And no, I’m not talking about Reddit this time. Oh, I’m, I’m sorry. Dear listeners, this is not one of our Reddit episodes. Gini Dietrich: I, I’m always scared of the Reddit episodes. Chip Griffin: The Reddit episodes are always, they’re interesting. We’ll leave it at that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I saw one the other day that I was like, oh boy, okay. In the real world… Chip Griffin: Sometimes I just, I read those posts in the, in the agency subreddit, and I just, I wonder if, if they’re actual, real people posting about real stuff, because some of it just seems so insane that it just couldn’t be real. Gini Dietrich: Yes. And some of it is very junior level entitled frustrations who don’t understand how a business operates. And so some of it you’re just like, Ugh. Okay. Chip Griffin: Yep. But I mean, we were all once those people sort of a little bit Gini Dietrich: Fair, true. Chip Griffin: At one point in time. Gini Dietrich: Yes. So absolutely. Chip Griffin: But that is not what this episode is. We are going to use another source of inspiration for us that we’ve used in the past, and that is David C. Baker. And, in this case, he had a post in his newsletter recently about what he would do if he was starting his own agency today. And it’s a lengthy article that walks through all of the different choices, that he would make strategically and tactically for the business. And there’s a lot of good food for thought in there. It’s, mm-hmm. It’s probably gonna inspire a few additional episodes, down the road as we dig deeper into some of the specific topics there. But, one of the things that I did on LinkedIn was I broke out into four buckets, my perspective on it, and broke it into things that I agree with, things that I agreed to disagree with. It depends because, hey, that’s our motto here, so why not? It does depend. Yes. Yep. And then of course, food for thought. So, there are far too many points for us to cover in a reasonably length podcast episode. So. I figured why not be controversial? Let’s deal with the disagrees that I had on my list and, use that as our jumping off point. And we’ll of course include a link to the article in the show notes that you can go read the full article as well as additional context around what we’re gonna talk about today because there is a lot to, to explore here. Gini Dietrich: And I think the buckets that you, you broke it into are really good. And for the most part I agree with how you’ve compartmentalized them all. But there are some interesting ones on the agree to disagree bucket. So let’s, let’s do that. Let’s start there. Chip Griffin: Alright. Do you have, do you have one that you would like to start with or do you want me to just start calling ones out? Gini Dietrich: Let’s see. Yeah, there’s, well, yes I do. That we require one month annual sabbatical to eliminate single points of failure. Sounds lovely. I would also like a one month sabbatical every year. Chip Griffin: It’s as, as I understood the article, and it is possible, I misunderstood the intent in the article, but as I understood it, he was suggesting that every year, every employee. Gini Dietrich: Everyone. Yes. Chip Griffin: Had to take a full one month sabbatical. Gini Dietrich: Yes. That’s how I read it as well. Chip Griffin: That is, I mean, it’s a nice idea. I think it is highly impractical for most organizations. And look, I think the, stated intent here is truly a good one, which is to avoid those single points of failure, over reliance on any individual team member. Yeah. ’cause this is a giant problem for agencies, honestly, of most sizes until you get to be giant. But it is something that, that you need to be conscious of. I don’t know that you need a full one month sabbatical for every employee every year in order to get there. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I mean, truth be told, like if you’re designing in the agency of the future and you’re starting from scratch today, I don’t know how you do that. I mean, to your point, even in a large organization, I don’t know that how, you do that because it costs a lot of money. Not just resources and time, but it costs money to have people out. And so, you know, if you’re a, you’re an agency of three people or you’re an agency of 50 people, or you’re an agency of hundreds of people, it still costs money. And so requiring that I think is a bit too much. And also, I will say that as somebody who has an extraordinary flexible and generous paid time off plan. There are people who take advantage of those things and you have to adjust to that, unfortunately. And I just don’t think it’s realistic. I don’t think it’s something that you could actually do. I don’t think it’s something you could enforce. I think it would be extraordinarily stressful for the person and for their team, even though it might be nice in writing. I don’t think it’s, realistic in practice. Chip Griffin: Well, I, think you, I mean, you, have a number of logistical issues that come into play here in addition to everything else. And particularly because one of the other, tenants in there that I, disagreed with was, that you would require all employees to take four one week vacations. Over the course of the year. So now you’ve, essentially got all employees out for two out of 12 months. Gini Dietrich: Two outta 12 months. Yes. Chip Griffin: And, that is logistically challenging because how do you do this and make sure that you don’t have too much overlap because inevitably there are certain times where people are going to prefer to do this. I mean, absolutely. If you want to take a one month sabbatical, most people are probably gonna want to do that over the summer months. Yes. When perhaps, you know, family members have access to vacation or those sorts of things. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Or they may want it end of year around the holidays and those kinds of things. So you, have collisions between people wanting the same time. If, they, can’t get what they want now, they may be frustrated that I gotta, you know, I have to take off a month in February. What good is that gonna do me? I mean, it’s cold, it’s snowy outside. My family can’t take the time off. My significant other won’t go. Like, Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: so what am I just gonna sit around in my house all day for the month. so I think there are some logistical challenges. So I guess what I, this is one of those ones where I’d say the ideal is nice. I’m not sure that it is practical to implement in the vast majority of firms. I would encourage instead that owners look and try to identify single points of failure and make sure that you have backups. Yes, yes. And frankly, those are important, whether you have someone taking a month off or a week off. And my view is that every employee should have a backup who can at least do the, minimum required for that role while they’re out. Particularly if they’re out suddenly, right? Because being able to plan for it. You’ve got a sabbatical, it’s on the calendar, six months ahead of time. You can get some stuff done early, you can push off some deadlines. There’s a lot of things you can do, but really to deal with single points of failure, you need to be able to handle those unexpected absences, right? Someone has a family emergency, someone has a health issue. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Someone gets an opportunity to go on a game show, I don’t know, whatever it is, that takes them away suddenly. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna make sure you’ve, handled, with single points of failure. So. Nice idea. I just, I, don’t think it’s practical for most firms. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And the other thing I’ll say on the single point of failure piece is one of the things that I experience as an agency owner quite often is that my certain members of my team will take time off, but they can’t… They can’t allow themselves to take time off. So they’re constantly checking in and they’re constantly asking for updates and they’re constantly, and so one of the things I do with them is. You know, ensure A, that you have some backup, and B, that when you’re asking for updates or you’re constantly slacking or texting or calling, that we don’t, we don’t give you a response. And, it makes people angry. But what I’m trying to do is A, give you the time off because you deserve it and, I want you to come back refreshed and ready to work. And B, well, I’ll say C. Actually there’s three, three things, B there, nothing’s going to burn down while one person is out because we have backup and we do have places where there is not a single point of entry. And lastly, it’s really demeaning to your team, like it’s demeaning. And even me as the owner sometimes I’m like, well, don’t you trust me to fall to take care of your clients while you’re gone? Like, come on, seriously. Right. That’s how it makes you feel. So I would say that it’s important from a single point of entry perspective as well to ensure that on the opposite side, that the team feels comfortable taking time off, that they don’t feel angst about taking the time off, that they can take the time off, and that the team behind them is, feels empowered and ready and trusted to do the work. Chip Griffin: Spot on. Alright, well there’s, there’s a lot on this list. So let’s move on to, to something different. How about we talk about open book finances, because this is, one that, I, will say that I disagree with an asterisk. So I, what he’s advocating in his piece is open book finances, including public disclosure of finances on the agency’s website. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: So, and in general, I am not a fan of full open book either internal or external. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: However, I do believe that most agency owners would be better off being more transparent than they currently are with their teams. That doesn’t mean being complete open book, but it does mean at a minimum, sharing with them more specifically the trends that are going on with the agency. You know, Even if you take actual numbers out, I like to show charts that show the directionality of revenue, the directionality of expenses. You know, so that you can kind of see those mapped up against each other so that as an employee, you start to understand more about the fundamentals of the business. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And it starts to make you less surprised when you’re seeing growth and less surprised when you’re seeing, you know, a narrowing of the gap, say, between revenue and expenses. So therefore, profit is shrinking. I, think that there does need to be more communication about that with, as I always say, education. You can never provide numbers, whether that’s percentages or charts or actual numbers to your team without helping them to understand the economics of the business. Because otherwise you’re just giving them numbers that they will interpret however they want. But I do think the smarter you make your team about these things, the better they can help to manage project budgets, the better and more realistic they can be about compensation and bonuses. All of these things, information helps, but not in my view all the way to full open books, either internal and certainly not external. No, definitely not. I don’t see enough upside doing it external. Gini Dietrich: Definitely. I, can’t imagine doing it externally because all that does is open up the, an invitation for your clients to say, well, you don’t really need to be that profitable, so let’s, take some, let’s take a percentage off like the No, no, no, no, no. And I also think, if I read it correct, his article correctly, he was advocating for open book on everyone’s salaries too. And no, I mean, we do salary bands, but you, do not know exactly how much every person makes. That’s not, that does not contribute to any sort of morale building inside a culture. Absolutely not. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, the only thing I will say to that is that, I, agree with you. However, the reality is that most people have a pretty good idea of what everybody else in the business except the owner is making anyway. And perhaps other select senior level people depending on, how your organization is structured. But pretty much all the juniors know what all every other junior makes. They all talk. Gini Dietrich: Well, and that’s why we have salary bands ’cause everybody pretty much makes the same Chip Griffin: right Gini Dietrich: amount. Right? Like they all make the same, but I’m still not publishing it. Chip Griffin: Exactly. And salary bands, you know, protect you. On that. And so, I mean, you could make the, case as long as you have tight salary bans. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Disclosure actually isn’t a problem. But you know, I don’t, I think as long as you have salary bands, you don’t need that. Obviously a lot of states are in here in the US are now requiring more disclosure around salary bands and that kind of stuff. So, you know, we’re headed there as an industry one way or the other. but I do think that salary bands are probably sufficient and, we don’t need to share actual salaries with team members. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Chip Griffin: You know, that said, I will say that all of your employees think you make far more than you do. We’ve talked about this before, so there may actually be an upside for, most owners to share what their actual take home is because Gini Dietrich: that like 10 people actually make more than I do. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of agencies where the owner is making less than team members. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Which is wild to me, but. Gini Dietrich: There’s also the upside on that though, if, you’re profitable and you make enough money at the end of the year, you get, you get that. But yes, from a salary perspective. Chip Griffin: Right, right. Alright, how about, 360s? My, one of my pet peeves. I consider it performance theater. I think most KPIs and OKRs and all these things, I think it’s all performance theater. I think it has very little to do with what actual performance outcomes you get from your team. But, 360s, you know, they’ve been popular for a couple of decades now. I don’t understand them. You know, I’ve been in organizations that, have done them. I will confess that, that, you know, at various points in time, my own businesses have experimented with them, and most of the feedback that you get from them is borderline worthless. Because most of it falls into the category of nobody wants to say anything really bad about anything else, it’s, you know, at worst it’s lukewarm. But then of course, you always get the random ones who just, they have an ax to grind Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And they’re gonna use the 360 Yep. As their way to grind an ax against a colleague. Yep. Or, or another department. Yep. Or whatever. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I, I’ve yet to see any, that actually helps to provide good feedback from the employees to the owner themselves. That’s just, I mean, you can tell people it’s anonymous. You can use an outside advisor to organize it, but people are not gonna put in writing. Even if they think it’s anonymous, any perspective about the owner, it just, it doesn’t happen in, the real world. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I agree with you. The only time I’ve, and it this happened to me, the only time I’ve seen it be effective is I, early in my agency life, business life, I hired somebody externally to do interviews. It was all anonymous, it was all verbal, nothing was recorded, and people were absolutely brutal. And the way he presented it to me made me so defensive that I couldn’t take even the kernels of feedback that I needed to hear. And there was some in there, but it was so brutal. And he, the way, and he presented it, I, in retrospect, I think he embellished some of it to make me, I, to make it like more jarring and alarming. Because he thought that that would make me wake up and pay attention. And in fact, it had the opposite effect. It was not, not good at all. And then I didn’t feel good about the people I had hired. Because it was, it was brutal. So I agree that, they’re not great. I subscribe to the give feedback, ongoing feedback. And so I don’t do annual reviews, I don’t do 360 reviews. You get feedback consistently. And when we’re in a meeting and I see something that you did really great or I see something that could use some work, I tell you that immediately. When I’m trying, when I want to coach you on something, I do that immediately and I ask my team to do the same with their team. So there’s, we have the ongoing feedback and then the annual review, quote unquote, is, Hey. We met our goals, we did really, really well. Here’s a raise, or you know what? This year was shitty and it sucked. You did your part in trying to make it better. I’m gonna give you a cost of living raise or whatever it happens to be, right? But it’s not a, here’s all the shitty things that your clients say, and here’s all the shitty things that your colleagues say and more about, I, you already know that you’re doing a great job in these areas. You already know that these are areas that need to be worked on, and we just continue to move forward. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I’ll say from, an owner trying to get, you know, feedback and perspective from the team there. You know, you, I wouldn’t do it through a, you know, a normal 360 review process, but you know, what, you’ve described part of it, I think the, whoever you hired got it right in having, you know, very anonymous conversations with team members. And I think that bringing an outside advisor who has those kinds of conversations, nothing in writing, it’s just it, you know, it’s dialogue back and forth. I do those for my clients from time to time. I’ll be honest, I, you know, I would say it’s maybe 50/50 whether I feel like I’m truly getting candid feedback. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: from the team members, because usually I don’t have any prior relationship with them, so they don’t know whether they truly can trust me or not. But you know, it’s, I mean, even 50% in most cases is enough to start, you know, pulling some common threads. But the whole, the way you use that information as an outside advisor, the way you present that. Matters a lot. And so you need to really understand how is it gonna land best with the owner that has hired you. And is that by being blunt, is that by sort of internalizing the knowledge and sometimes I’ll just use it in my ongoing conversations to try to steer things. Yes. To address some of that feedback. Sure. Without even explicitly saying, well, Gini Dietrich: yes, Chip Griffin: you know, the whole team said you’re very bad at X, Y, and Z. Gini Dietrich: Brutal. Chip Griffin: But instead, try to find other ways Yes. To, achieve the same outcome, because then the team starts to feel like it was useful to talk with me, and the owner then starts to feel good about the way the team starts to pull together and all that kind of stuff. But it, is, delicate and, I would say that, you know, the, typical 360 process where it tends to be, you know, written survey feedback form type things, I, just, I think that’s, it’s very difficult to see that working in most cases and in my own experience, it has rarely worked out, the way people would like it to. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, totally agree. Chip Griffin: All right. let’s see. We have time probably for at least one more, or maybe just one more here from the list. I don’t know if there’s something that, that jumps out at you that you would like to have, covered. Gini Dietrich: Let me look, let me look. Uh, maybe we can mush board of advisors and direct access to CEO together. Chip Griffin: Sure. Although they’re, well no, because the direct access to CEO is the CEO of the client. Gini Dietrich: Oh, oh, got it, got it, got it. Chip Griffin: So they, they are, they are separate issues. Got it. But I, mean, I think either, either board of advisors, the other one I would throw out there is a possible one is the, tying all, employee comp to have an incentive component. Oh, yeah. I, think either one of those would be good. So I’ll let you pick between board of advisors or employee comp. Gini Dietrich: Employee comp. Chip Griffin: So, this is, this is one of my pet peeves. And I’m sure that David doesn’t know this, and, if he did that… Gini Dietrich: Ha! He wrote it just because he knew it was your pet peeve. Chip Griffin: But, but his argument was that every employee should have at least some of their compensation effectively at risk as part of a, an incentive compensation plan. And I hate this idea. I hate formulaic, incentive-based compensation for virtually all employees. And I’ll be controversial here, it doesn’t really apply to most agencies, but I don’t think it should apply to most sales reps either. Because I think that when you have incentive compensation, whether that is commissions or for hitting profit targets or you know, other things, the problem that you run into is people tend to the extent that they pay attention to it at all. Right? So. You’ve got a couple of risks here. One is that you’re paying people for things they don’t even care about. Right? Right. You know, I mean, I’ve had sales reps they were gonna sell or not sell, and it had nothing to do with the commission they were getting. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Chip Griffin: Now that’s rare. Most sales reps are incented by their commission and, so they will try harder to get it, but what are they doing? They’re, focused on the thing that gets them the commission, which is the actual signature on the contract and the revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s good revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s profitable. It doesn’t mean that it’s a good client. It doesn’t mean you can get results for them. It doesn’t mean any of those things. And you’re now creating tension because if you have more than one sales rep, nobody wants to help each other because then they gotta split the commission. And so, but this goes beyond, you know, sales and other ways of doing incentive compensation. You still have, it’s very difficult to craft a plan. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: That doesn’t have unintended consequences. Yeah. And particularly when you’re outside of the sales realm, my experience is that most employees are not truly motivated to hit specific targets for their incentive comp. They’re either gonna do a good job or they’re not. And it has nothing to do with you saying if you hit this target, you’ll get a little bit extra. But to the extent that it is, it does have those unintended consequences because now they’re fixated on, I mean, let’s say it’s client retention. So now what if, if you’ve got a client retention target and if you have a client retention over 85%, you get a bonus. Sounds great. Right? Because we’re, retaining clients. Except that what are we doing to retain those clients? Right? Oftentimes that means we’re going to go way down the, rabbit hole of scope creep. Yep. And, we’re just gonna be giving them all sorts of freebies to keep them around. And so those are the things we need to think about. And it’s, why in general, I’m opposed to all forms of incentive comp. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, one of the things that we do do is we say you can earn up to a certain percentage of your salary in bonus. It’s the end of year bonus. And here are the, gates, like revenue, profitability, all the things. But most of it is not reliant on the individual. Most of it’s reliant on the company as a whole. And so we all have to work together to achieve those goals. And then they sort of know like, okay, well this, this is where we are, so I’m gonna make 90% of that percentage or whatever it happens to be. So they are they are clear about those kinds of things and they tend, because of that, they tend to ask… They tend to be more engaged and ask more strategic questions about work, and they’re more thoughtful about it. But to your point, we don’t reward scope creep. We don’t reward, you know, keeping a client longer than we should. Those kinds of things. Those, like, we take those pieces out. So we, do it based on, we don’t do it commission or incentive based, but we do do it based on a certain percentage of your salary if we meet certain objectives as an organization. Chip Griffin: I mean, that’s better, but I’ll be honest, I still don’t like it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It works for us. It’s highly motivating for us. Chip Griffin: And that’s, the thing. I mean, the, as we say at the end of every, episode, it depends. So even these things where Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You know, we may disagree, you know, where David has different ideas than we do, that doesn’t mean that, that none of them can work in your agency. Right. and I think that it’s, that’s a point that, that he made in a LinkedIn conversation that, that we had, recently as well. You know, some of these may be good ideas, some of them may be bad ideas. Some of them may be good ideas, but you know, wrong place, wrong time or wrong agency, wrong time. And, some of these ideas are good at different stages of the lifecycle of even your own agency. So something that works when you have two employees may not work when you have 20 or 200. Right. And so, you know, I just, I, love articles like this though, because it gives you that food for thought. It makes you think, it makes you, you know, to test your assumptions. You know that I’m a huge, advocate of curiosity generally. And so, you know, making you think about things is helpful. And so hopefully we’ve made you think just as David made us think. And, so we, appreciate that and, we hope that we’ve given you those insights here that may help you think through decisions for your own agency. And of course, you know, check out the full article for many, many more ideas beyond what we were able to cover today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. It was a really good, really good article. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So thank you all for joining us. That will conclude this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

No more excuses. No more waiting to see how things play out. AI has moved past the experimental phase, and if you’re still treating it like a nice-to-have rather than a fundamental shift in how your agency operates, you’re already falling behind. In this episode, Chip comes out swinging with a wake-up call for the agency community: the ground is shifting faster than most are willing to admit, and the window for meaningful adaptation is closing. Gini backs him up with examples of how AI has progressed from an intern-level tool to something that can genuinely replace mid-level work—if agencies don’t evolve what they’re selling. They dig into the practical reality of training AI tools to work like team members, not just one-off prompt machines. Chip explains how he uses different platforms for different strengths—Claude for writing, Gemini for competitive intelligence, Perplexity for research, and ChatGPT as his strategic baseline. Gini shares how her 12-year-old daughter creates entire anime worlds through conversation with AI, demonstrating the power of treating these tools as collaborators rather than search engines. The conversation covers what clients actually want to pay for in 2026 (hint: it’s not social posts and press releases), how to build AI agents trained on your specific expertise, and why the process of training AI forces valuable clarity about your business. They emphasize that this isn’t about slapping the “AI-powered” label on your services—it’s about fundamentally rethinking what value you deliver and how you deliver it. If you’ve been sitting on the sidelines waiting for the AI dust to settle, this episode is your warning: there is no settling. There’s only evolution or extinction. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you do not change, it will replace you. It will take away your revenue. If you keep doing the same thing that you’re doing today, it absolutely will destroy you.” Gini Dietrich: “We are no longer relying on our agencies to do the work. We are relying on agencies to teach us what’s coming ’cause we don’t have the time.” Chip Griffin: “AI is not just changing how your business operates, it’s changing how other businesses operate. It’s changing how the media operates. And so it is truly a disruptive force that we need to be thinking about.” Gini Dietrich: “When somebody says to me, oh, I just can’t get it to output what I need, I’m like, user error. You haven’t taken the time to train it.” Turn ideas into action Train one AI tool this week like you’d train an employee. Pick the platform you use most (ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini) and spend 30 minutes having an actual conversation with it about your preferences—tone, structure, what you hate (like emojis), and what outcomes you need. Feed it examples of your best work and tell it explicitly when outputs miss the mark and why. The tool won’t improve with one-shot prompts; it needs training just like a new hire. Map what clients will actually pay for in 2026. Block one hour to list every service you currently bill for, then honestly assess which ones AI can now handle at a competent level. Don’t lie to yourself—if ChatGPT can draft solid social posts or press releases after reviewing past examples, that’s table stakes now. Identify what remains valuable: strategy, teaching clients to use these tools, implementing new processes, or solving problems AI can’t touch. This clarity will drive every business decision you make this year. Test AI on something personal before rolling it to client work. If you or your team are intimidated by AI, start with meal planning, fitness routines, managing schedules, or drafting birthday card messages. Use it for something low-stakes where you can experiment with conversation-style prompting without pressure. Once you see how it responds to feedback and training in a personal context, you’ll understand how to apply the same approach to agency work. Resources LinkedIn post by Vineet Mehra that Gini references Related Agencies succeed through consistency and evolution AI myths agencies must avoid View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, you know, we started the new year off on a note where we weren’t gonna yell at our audience, but I feel like it, it’s time to yell at our audience again. I’ve taken too much time off from being Mr. Nice guy. Gini Dietrich: Okay, well this shall be interesting. I can’t wait. Chip Griffin: I, and this is, it’s partly for our audience, but it’s really for the overall agency community, particularly PR and marketing, PR and communications generally, even outside the agency world. I’m just, I’ve become kind of wound up lately because I think that the industry as a whole, and perhaps even some of our listeners are not acting swiftly enough to understand just how much the ground is shifting beneath them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And how much serious evolution needs to take place. Really over the next year. I mean, I don’t think, I don’t think we’re on a long-term horizon here. I think that too many have waited to change too long in many ways, and AI is now becoming sort of the, the real trigger point for it, but it’s bigger than that. I think a lot of the, the PR space in general has lagged behind a lot of what’s going on in the business community, and AI is just the fist to the face that’s, that’s gonna separate out the people who are gonna survive. Gini Dietrich: The fist to the face. Wow. All right, then. Chip Griffin: I told you I was a little wound up on this one, so, Gini Dietrich: okay. So everybody’s gonna be punched in the face. Got it. Okay. Chip Griffin: If that’s what it takes to wake up and pay attention. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, no, I, yeah, I totally agree with you. And, you know, I have been gungho on AI for going on four years now. And it’s, it’s my second love for sure. But it is time to pay attention to how it is changing things and what it’s going to do to your business, to your teams, to how you deliver work, all those things. Chip Griffin: I mean, look, a lot of the PR world has been focused in recent years on figuring out how to keep their head above water and survive, and hang on to the old ways of doing things. And this predates the explosion of AI in recent years. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But, what the explosion of AI has done is really, it has drawn the attention of particularly clients to the issue. It has drawn the attention of employees. It, and it is still being ignored. And I think we’ve hit that point where we can no longer ignore it. I think we’re at the point with a lot of these AI tools where they are now both accessible and reliable enough that there’s no reason not to accelerate your pace of change using AI as a tool to get there. And we’ve talked about this before, and I, and I’m not changing my point of view, AI is not the end in itself. The AI is just a way to get there. So don’t mistake what I’m saying here for saying that, you know, you just need to adopt AI for the sake of AI. You still need to find problems to solve first and AI will help you on a lot of them, but you need to be finding those problems. You need to be thinking ahead to what do clients really want from you? What is going to help them to get the results they’re looking for? It can’t be about how do I use AI to make myself a little bit more efficient in what I’m currently doing. Because everything is changing. And we need to be on top of that. Gini Dietrich: I read an article on LinkedIn probably in November, and I’ll see if I can find the link to include in show notes. But it, it was from a chief marketing officer at a Fortune 10 company, and what he said was this: if I were an agency wanting to work with clients in 2026, here are five things I would do. And I can’t remember all of them, but one of them was teach organizations, teach marketing and comms teams how to use AI to be more effective. Implement your process, whatever it happens to be. Because we are no longer relying on our agencies to do the work. We are relying on agencies to teach us what’s coming ’cause we don’t have the time. And that has stuck in my head because I think that’s right. I think that. Yeah, sure, agencies will always, or big companies, will always need arm extra arms and legs to do the work, but that’s not the work that most of us want to be doing. Right? We don’t wanna be writing the social posts and the news releases. We wanna be part of the strategic conversation. We wanna be part of the of helping to move an organization forward. And if we can do that by teaching our clients how to use AI to be more effective, to be more productive, to accelerate their work, and I know everybody’s worried it’s going to replace me, it’s going to, it’s going to reduce our number, our billable hours, whatever happens to be. I think there’s a huge opportunity here for you to reframe how you’re helping clients and using AI to be able to do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, but I would be very direct with listeners. If you do not change, it will replace you. It will take away. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. That’s totally fair. Chip Griffin: Your revenue. Gini Dietrich: Yes, it will. I totally agree with you. Yeah. Chip Griffin: So, you know when we say that you know that AI is not gonna destroy your agency, that’s only if you evolve. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. Chip Griffin: If you keep doing the same thing that you’re doing today, it absolutely will destroy you. I don’t care whether you’re an employee or a business or whatever, if you are an employee and you think that AI isn’t gonna take your job in a year, it is If you don’t evolve, that’s and figure out how to use it for yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yep. That’s totally fair. Chip Griffin: And we need, everybody who’s listening needs to wake up to that fact. It requires a huge mindset shift. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Because AI can write your news releases, it can write your social posts. It can do all of that stuff that Chip Griffin: not only can, Gini Dietrich: we don’t wanna do anyway, Chip Griffin: It should. Yeah. Because it has evolved enough in the last year that the quality is there now. I used to describe AI as an intern. It is moved beyond the intern stage. Yep. It is at a minimum a junior employee, and if you train it well for your organization, it can be even a mid-level employee or perhaps even in some cases more than that. But this training piece is important too, because part of the problem that a lot of people run into in my experience is they, they hop onto the AI tool and they just say, Hey, write this press release on this subject. And I look at it, oh, this is rubbish. It still requires a lot of work. You know what? It absolutely does. The same thing would happen if you hired an employee off the street who knew nothing about you and your clients, and you said, write me a press release. The result would probably be pretty similar to what the AI came up with. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: But once that employee starts writing more press releases and you start telling ’em, this is the tone of voice we use, this is the style we use, these are the facts we use. You feed more information into it. You explain your preferences. When you’re using these AI tools, you need to just be direct with it. Don’t accept the first response. Explain as you would with an employee what you want done differently. If you do that, it will tailor the outcomes. Even simple stuff. Like I’ve told them, stop showing me damn emojis. I don’t wanna see an emoji in any response because I think it’s wildly unprofessional and I hate them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So guess what? I don’t see them anymore. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I’ve asked it to tighten up the spacing on it so that I can see more on a screen. It does that. And that’s even before you start telling it, you know, this is the structure of a paragraph that I like. You start feeding in information. I’ve fed in a thousand articles and transcripts and that sort of stuff into the platforms. It now can speak like me reliably to the point where I don’t know if what it’s giving me is a quote from something I’ve written before or original text that it’s come up with that just speaks so clearly in my voice. Gini Dietrich: I love that it will say, it will give, usually gives me three options. One is like strategic leadership, like C-level blurbs. That with Gini-isms or like smart, funny, witty blurbs. And then I can decide, and usually what I do is I take a combination of the three, but it has gotten to the point where if it actually calls it Gini-isms, that like it knows how I talk, it knows how I write, it knows how I coach, it does it knows all of those things. And it has created an opportunity for me to say, yeah, this probably, we probably shouldn’t have some Gini-isms in this ’cause it’s really professional. Or, we can include more because it’s more me talking to a screen or whatever happens to be. So it’s gotten to that point. It’s, when you train it, it’s very, very good. Chip Griffin: Well, and you can even tailor those recommendations. So one of the things that, that I’ve told it is it’s fine to give me multiple options, but give me your recommendation. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And when you do that, don’t give me a whole lot of backup on the alternative. So spend your time explaining why you’re making the recommendation. That’s fine. But then, you know, if it’s, let’s say it’s a title or something like that, you know, give me three or four other options, but it, by default, it tends to explain those three or other four other options. And so now you’re dealing with like a 10 page response, Gini Dietrich: right? Chip Griffin: For what should be something pretty simple. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So. I, part of my instructions to my tools are, don’t do that. Give me the alternatives, but just, you know, bullet point them. If I want more information, I’ll ask for it, but it allows it to work more the way that I want it to. And so we all need to do that. We also need to be looking at these tools and understanding that there’s no one size fits all solution. I have people say, well, should I, you know, should I use Claude or Chat GPT or Gemini? The answer is yes. Gini Dietrich: Yes to all of them. Chip Griffin: But they all serve different purposes. Yep. Just like you have different employees who serve different roles, these tools excel in different areas. I mean, Claude is fantastic at writing. I mean, to me, Claude is my head of writing because it can just absolutely nail it, but there’s a lot of things that it doesn’t do quite as well. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Yep. Chip Griffin: And then I look at something like Gemini, and I love what Gemini does in terms of inferring things from research. So it’s more willing to go out on a limb, and kind of read between the lines of things that it finds to come back with, particularly for competitive intelligence or things like that. You know, deep research. Whereas Perplexity is very good for research where you really wanna make sure it’s accurate and you really wanna be able to cite all the sources, but it will not go out on a limb. So understanding what the strengths of each platform are is useful. And then there’s Chat GPT, which is sort of my, you know, my default choice for just basic stuff, strategy, et cetera. But I’ve also told it, tell me when I should go somewhere else. And so it’s good. It’ll say You should hand this off to Claude now. Gini Dietrich: I love that. Chip Griffin: Because we’ve, I’ve had an actual conversation with Chat GPT about my stack and, and what I think of it and I bounced things around and, you know, refined it. So now it knows how I want to handle certain things. And so it will stop at a certain point and say, now it’s time for you to go here. And that’s really helpful. Gini Dietrich: I love that. I do not do that. I usually move between, but I haven’t had it recommend when to move it. That’s… Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, but it could, because it won’t generally by default tell you to do that. But if you, if you explain what you have access to and what you want to use it for, it will tell you when is the right time, and sometimes I’ll pause and say, are you really the right one for this? Or should I be using one or the others? And they’ll say, no. Good point. You know, you should use this one instead for this particular task. Gini Dietrich: I love that. Chip Griffin: And it’s great. I mean, and I’ll, I’ll bring things back and forth like, so when I’m creating a piece of content, I’ll often, you know, ask more of the strategy piece from Chat GPT, because I’ve put more of the strategy stuff into there. Then I’ll go over to Claude to write it, but then I’ll bring it back for feedback. Now the next level is then to automate this with agents with n8n and those kinds of things. And, and so, you know, I’ll play with those things too. But for now, even doing it manually is a huge time saver, Gini Dietrich: huge time saver, Chip Griffin: and still ends up with really high quality content. It’s not, people talk about how AI is helping put out rubbish. And that’s because people are doing it without training. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: You need to think through how you use these tools to get the results that your clients are looking for and the results that you need as a business. And this is where people are falling down, and this is where a lot more effort needs to go into it. If you want to not just survive but thrive. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you. And you know, it’s funny ’cause when somebody says to me, oh, I just can’t get it to output what I need, and I’m like, user error. I usually say that because that’s exactly what it is, is you haven’t taken the time to train it. I, and you have to, I, you said earlier, you talk to it like it’s an employee. I do the same thing. Talk to it through like, okay, this isn’t quite right and here’s why. Think about this, this, this, and this. We also need to consider these things. And then it goes. Oh, okay. Goes into thinking mode and then it, it outputs pretty close to, but you have to have a conversation with it. I use this example all the time, but my 12-year-old is obsessed. Obsessed with anime, and she like, no, nothing else exists in her world right now other than anime. And she has created an entirely new ecosystem of anime worlds from her favorite shows using chat GPT. I mean, it’s so good that I’ve actually considered. Finding a, a publisher to have it published as fanfiction because it’s that good. And she doesn’t type into it. She literally has a conversation with Chat. She calls it Gee. And she will say, Gee, I’m thinking about this. I want the guy to do this, and I want the girl to do this. And like she has a whole conversation and it creates this world with her that… it’s fascinating to sit and listen to how she’s using it. So it’s the same kind of thing. Have a conversation with it. You can do it via voice, you can do it, you know, by typing whatever is easiest for you. But have a conversation with it and teach it just like you would an employee. It’s gonna learn faster. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t need to eat. It doesn’t need to work out. It doesn’t need to take a break. It doesn’t, it’s not going to pause for meetings. You can have stuff running in the background while you’re doing something else. I mean, it’s the more time you spend training it, just like with a human being, the better it is. Chip Griffin: Yep. And I’m gonna be honest, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be more work and stress in the short term for you. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, this is not, Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You know, this is not a quick fix. It is not. It is not something where there’s some magic formula. You’re gonna have to try to figure out what works for you and for your team. What works for your clients. And the client piece is really where you need to start with this. You need to spend some time thinking about what are your clients really hiring you for? What are they going to need you for 12, 18, 24 months down the road? Then start figuring out how these tools can help you to get there. Because there’s just, there is too much of this “Well, you know, I need to, I need to protect my billing model, and so I need to do value pricing because of AI.” That is not the answer. Although if it were, what you would discover is that, that people are valuing less what you are doing today. So if you’re truly going to follow value pricing, that doesn’t mean that you get more. It means you probably get less for a lot of these things because they realize, you know, that drafting of a press release, I actually can get that out of Claude pretty well. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Particularly if you feed it in your last three or four years worth of press releases. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: It’ll be pretty darn good at coming up with them on their own. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Probably candidly, in less time that it takes to communicate to your team that they want it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. 100%. Yes. Chip Griffin: Now there will still be companies that are happy to outsource it generally. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: Right. That’s, that is always going to exist. But the way that they value it from a price standpoint and the other things that they want alongside of it will absolutely change. And you need to be thinking about that. Because AI is not just changing how your business operates, it’s changing how other businesses operate. It’s changing how the media operates. And so it is truly a disruptive force that we need to be thinking about as communicators and as agency folks because it, it upends a lot of what we have done, tactically at least, in recent years and over the decades. It does not upset the outcomes that are being sought after. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: From the work that we’re doing. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And, and we lose sight of that for the tactics too often. Gini Dietrich: One of the things that I did is I built an agent, and I call it my co CEO. And as I was building it, I was going through a really rough HR time and so I used it mostly, honestly, just to vent. But it got to know me, and what’s important to me, and my voice, and what things I wanted to be human forward on, and what things I needed to stay professional on. And so I, as I was building it, it was, I was going through that process. Now I can say to it, okay, we’re thinking about doing this. So for instance, a client came to me probably midyear last year and said, Hey, we really want your team to do an audit of all of our brands and where they sit on the PESO model maturity level. And I kind of laughed and said, well, I can tell you right now, they’re all at level zero. And he was like, great, that’s good to know. What’s what takes us from zero to one, one to two, and so on up. And I thought about that for a little bit and I was like, hmm. I don’t have an answer for that. And so I went into my CO CEO and I had a conversation with it. Like, if we were gonna build a maturity model for the PESO model for an enterprise customer, what does that look like? And it probably took two weeks for me to get something that I could go back to him with and feel comfortable and confident with it. But it would’ve taken me two months to do that on my own. So, you know, it helps you think, it helps poke through holes in things. You have an AI that you’re building and I hope it’s okay for me to mention this ’cause I don’t know if it’s available yet, but I got to beta test it and it’s, I put in there that I was looking for. I said, okay, this is where, this is where the business is at the end of 2025. These are our goals for 2026. Here’s what I’d like to do in the next three to five years. Here’s like, I put in all of that information, where are the holes? And it started poking holes into things that I had never even considered. And I was like. Chip, this is really good. It’s just, it’s really, really good. So when you, when you train it, when you teach it what you’re wanting, what your voice is, what you’re trying to achieve, it is going to help you in more ways than one. It’s gonna help you think through problems. It’s gonna help you come up with solutions you didn’t consider. And like I said, it doesn’t need to sleep. So it can work in the background while you’re doing other things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And there are a lot of these ways that we can innovate for our businesses and that particular example, it is live on the SAGA website now. It’s an AI agent called Sage. Gini Dietrich: It’s awesome and everyone should check it out. Chip Griffin: It’s trained on a huge volume of my both public and private materials that I’ve created over the last eight or nine years, and it does a remarkably good job of mimicking the advice I would give. Is it a hundred percent? One-to-one? No. Yeah, but it’s, it’s pretty darn close to the point where I’ve had a couple of clients now who have tried it and then asked me the same question they asked of Sage, and they got almost exactly the same answer. And, and so that’s how, you know, it’s, it’s working pretty well because I think, as any listener knows, I have some views that are not necessarily exactly in line with every other advisor in the agency space. And so, and in some of those cases, they were pieces of advice that you wouldn’t get if you went somewhere else. So, you know, you can tell that it’s actually using the training materials. And not simply doing a general knowledge search. But these are all things, it does take time. You’ve gotta have the material to provide to it. You need to spend the time with it, as you did in conversing and going back and forth. But the more you go back and forth, the smarter it gets. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And the better it can help you the next time something comes along. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And I think the other thing is that the more you use these tools, the more it forces you to think about some of these things. Because in order to get the most from them, you really have to be very clear about who is your ideal client? What are the services you provide? What is the value you deliver? And so, it’s just like a business plan. I always say that the business plan itself doesn’t really matter, but the process you go through to create it does. The process you go through to train your AI itself is beneficial and helps to get clarity. Because the clearer you are with the AI, the clearer you are with yourself by necessity. And so you need to be thinking about these things. You need to be really thinking about making much more radical change to your business over the next year or two than you probably have previously thought. You really need to be thinking about how not just technology, but client needs will force this change, otherwise you are gonna get left behind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree. And to your point earlier, if you evolve and if you use it, and you’re better, you’re doing a better job of understanding what it is that your clients are willing to pay for, and they’re still willing to do it. They just don’t wanna pay for social posts and news releases. Chip Griffin: That’s right. I mean, there’s a huge opportunity here. There’s a giant threat, Gini Dietrich: huge opportunity, Chip Griffin: and I don’t wanna minimize that, but there’s a huge opportunity. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: But the key is you actually have to evolve and change. You can’t just play buzzword bingo. Gini Dietrich: Yes, please. Chip Griffin: Just slapping AI on top of something that you deliver that’s not gonna help you. Gini Dietrich: And it’s fun. It’s fun to test it. It’s fun to try it out. So do it. Chip Griffin: Yeah, Gini Dietrich: Do it, do it, do it. Chip Griffin: I mean, but we can’t minimize. It is scary for a lot of people too. I mean, Gini Dietrich: sure, absolutely. Yeah. Chip Griffin: But you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta embrace that fear if you wanna succeed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I always say when I have somebody new join the team that’s scared of it, I say, all right, let’s do it. Let’s use it for something personal. So I will say that to you as well. Meal planning, fitness, hobbies. Managing your kids’ meltdowns, whatever it happens to be, just try it for something. Write a poem in a birthday card. Try it for something personal, and I guarantee you, you’ll be hooked. Chip Griffin: I had no idea we’d be getting to poems and birthday cards here today. So I think that’s the note that we’re gonna wrap up this episode on. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Gini Parent, wife of Flyers legendary Goalie Bernie Parent joined the 94 WIP Morning Show on Thursday to discuss Bernie's legacy and her current role in Flyers charities.

In hour 4 of the 94 WIP Morning Show, Gini Parent joined to talk about Flyers charities and the legacy of her husband Bernie. Joe DeCamara and Jon Ritchie are still upset that the Phillies did not retain Harrison Bader. Listen at the end for today's Time's Yours segment!

You built an agency you’re proud of. So why does your website still feature that glowing tribute to someone you wouldn’t recommend today, or explain services you stopped offering three years ago? In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle the unsexy but critical task of auditing your agency’s website content. They share practical approaches for identifying what needs updating, what deserves deletion, and how to prioritize your efforts when you’re staring down hundreds (or thousands) of outdated pages. The conversation covers everything from quick wins—like updating your homepage and key pages—to strategic decisions about high-traffic content that no longer serves your business. Gini shares her process for using tools like Screaming Frog to audit content systematically, while Chip emphasizes the importance of focusing on human users rather than chasing every algorithm change. They also dive into the balance between refreshing old content and creating new material, with specific guidance on when each approach makes sense. The episode wraps with a reminder that consistency matters more than perfection—especially when AI is increasingly using your bio and content to determine whether to recommend you. If your website is starting to feel like a liability rather than an asset, this episode offers a manageable roadmap to get it back on track without turning it into a year-long project. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “First and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay, are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing?” Gini Dietrich: “I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards.” Chip Griffin: “If you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the way the world has changed, you know, those are ones that you want to address.” Gini Dietrich: “AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is.” Turn ideas into action Audit your homepage today. Open your website and read your homepage copy with fresh eyes—does it accurately reflect who you serve, what you do, and where your agency stands today? If not, block two hours this week to rewrite it. This is your most important page and the fastest way to stop misrepresenting your business. Check Google Analytics for your top 20 pages. Identify which pages drive the most traffic, then ask yourself if each one still serves your business or if you’re just attracting irrelevant visitors. Kill off pages that generate traffic but don’t support your current positioning—inflated vanity metrics aren’t worth the confusion. Ensure bio consistency across platforms. Compare your bio on your website, LinkedIn, and other platforms where you appear. Make them consistent (accounting for character limits) so AI can confidently present you as an option when people search for expertise in your area. Related Real talk about agency websites How to think about your agency's website View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m old. Gini Dietrich: Yes, you are. Chip Griffin: But you know what else is old? Gini Dietrich: What else? Chip Griffin: Some of the content on my website. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, sure. Mine too. Yeah. Chip Griffin: It’s, it’s one of the perils of having been around for a while. Gini Dietrich: Yes, indeed. Chip Griffin: Both as a human, as a business. And so we have a lot of content out there on the website that maybe isn’t as current as we’d like it to be. Some of it I haven’t looked at in many years, so I don’t even know if it’s up to date or not. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: I’m sure that many of our listeners have content on their website or maybe entire websites that are old and out of date. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So my question to you is, how should we be thinking about this kind of, how do we deal with this problem? Or we, we can’t just spend, I mean, I, I don’t know about you, but my website’s got over a thousand different pieces of content on it. Oh yeah. Now I think most of our listeners probably don’t have websites with quite that much content on it, but some do, and even if you’ve only got a couple hundred, you know, that’s still a substantial body of content that you need to audit in some fashion. So what, what do you do about that? Gini Dietrich: You know, it’s funny, this conversation is happening right now because about a week ago, right after the holidays, I got an email from a friend that said, Hey, uh, I don’t know if you know this or not, but you have a blog post from, from 13 years ago, literally 13 years ago, praising Elon Musk. And I was like, well, let’s delete that! But like, I don’t know how she found that. She must have been searching on the site for something and found it. Right. So I think it’s important to do an audit and I did delete it. I moved it to the trash. But, I think it is important to do an audit. We have a client that said to us, we don’t think we need new content. We have plenty. And we went in and we’re like, okay, great. Let’s do an audit and see. And we audited it and they do have plenty of content, but the most recent is two and a half years old. So one of the things that we’re working on with them right now, well, twofold. One is going through the audit that we did to see what needs to stay with an update, a refresh, and what should be deleted. There are lots of, there’s lot, there’s lots of content on their site. And actually this will appeal to many of you listeners too. There’s content on their website that has some great SEO value. You know, showing up first in Google results and things like that. So you don’t wanna get rid of that content, but it probably needs a good update. It probably needs to be refreshed. It probably needs new quotes, new experts, new expertise, new statistics, whatever it happens to be. So that’s what I would do. It’s pretty easy. We use, Screaming Frog to do the audit, so it’ll, it will look at your entire website and then give you an Excel list of all of your links, and then you can go and you can tell it I want dates and topic and all that kind of stuff. And you can go through that fairly easily to say, this is old, we don’t need that. Move that to a different tab. This is good stuff. We don’t wanna lose it. And then I would compare that to what you’re keep, I would compare what you’re keeping to do a Google search. Are you show, are those links showing up in Google? And I would also ask AI. Are you showing, is AI showing that content in its answers. So you probably, I would venture to guess, like you and me, we, it would be a really big undertaking ’cause we have years and years of content. But for most agency owners, I would guess it’s probably a, I dunno… And you can use AI to help you, but it’s probably a two or three hour thing that you can split up over several weeks, right? To get it done. But 100% you should be, you should have an up update up to date website overall, and you should be updating content so that it’s refreshed, not necessarily the URL, but updating the content inside the article or the blog post or the page or whatever it happens to be. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I, I think the advice to sort of just kind of, you know, go through a list of it is a really good starting point. Whether you use some third party tool, or frankly, if your website isn’t too huge, if you just go into WordPress and start scrolling back through the pages and posts. Mm-hmm. And just looking at the headlines, it at least, you know, things that are obviously in need of help will jump out at you. Yeah. Or you know, that you praise somebody that doesn’t make sense or whatever. And, and we have to keep in mind that, that sometimes that old content might be a year old, it might be 10 years old, right? It might still need some sort of an updating. The other thing that’s, that’s often helpful is just to go into, you know, something simple like your Google Analytics and just look at, you know, the top 20, 30, 40 pages in terms of traffic and just ask, are all of these pages the way I still want to present myself in whatever the current year is that you’re listening to us? Because, you know, that can be a really helpful way of prioritizing what you wanna address, what you wanna update. And particularly if you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the, the way the world has changed. You know, those are ones that you want to address. I, to me, one of the interesting cases is, you know what, and I’ve seen this a lot, and I, some of the organizations I’ve worked with have had this issue where you’ve got a page that gets a ton of traffic, but it’s frankly totally irrelevant to what they do today. Right. It’s still, it’s still an accurate bit of content, which is why it keeps getting traffic, you know, because it’s answering whatever question the searcher may have had, but it doesn’t really benefit the organization other than it does produce a fair amount of inbound traffic. So, to me, those are interesting cases. Trying to figure out what you do with those. And, if you talk to different SEO experts, you sometimes hear different bits of advice on this, right? Because some are like, well, you know, you, you’re still getting people clicking over to your site, and that’s a good signal for the search engines, so that’s good. The problem is if the signal is that you’re relevant for something that you really aren’t relevant for. Right. So, doesn’t really help you. My general inclination is if it’s completely irrelevant to what you do today, I would kill it off and sacrifice the traffic. But that’s, that’s my perspective on that. No, I totally agree with that. Either way you should make a conscious decision about it. Gini Dietrich: I totally agree with that because I think you’re right. If it’s not some, if it’s irrelevant, if you’re bringing irrelevant traffic to your website, your numbers are inflated. So I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards. Right. So I completely agree with you and like I said, I killed that article from 13 years ago. Because that’s not how I feel about that man anymore. So, yeah. At all. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, for, for many years on my personal blog, the highest trafficked post was one, was sort of a throwaway post I did on a camera backpack, that I got like 20 years ago. And it just, it scored, it turned out it was a popular model of the backpack, and so it got a ton of traffic from people who were considering buying it. Obviously that didn’t help me at all. Gini Dietrich: Not at all. Right. Chip Griffin: Because that, I mean, you know, I didn’t pitch camera backpacks or anything like that, you know, I didn’t sell ’em, I didn’t even have an affiliate link in or anything like that. So what, you know, what was the value of it? Pretty much nothing. You know, it felt nice to see all the spikes in traffic that it generated. Sure. Of course. But yeah. But it wasn’t particularly useful, so, and those are the kinds of things that, that many of us may, you know, maybe we just had a comment on our blog about some story of the day. And it just took off and for whatever reason still sticks around. But it’s not really what our agency is about, so doesn’t really help. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I would really look at, I mean, some of your ideas, especially if you don’t have a ton of content like we do going, just going through WordPress and looking to see. I would start with the content on your website specifically, what’s on your homepage? Does it represent who you are and what you stand for today? Does it accurately reflect where you are today? I would venture to guess the answer for most of us is no. I would start there at least with the homepage and your top three or four pages, so probably your services page, probably your about us page. Maybe a resources page, depending on, again, look at your Google Analytics. Then once you’ve done that, then I would definitely go through WordPress and go through any content that you have, podcasts, recordings, videos, blog posts, whatever it happens to be. Go through all of those and then divide and conquer and say, yeah, we’re gonna have to update these. It may take me all year, but I’m gonna do one a week and I’m gonna update one a week. And it suddenly, you’re taking small bites of the elephant and you can get it done by year’s end. Chip Griffin: I love your advice to look at the homepage and other key pages before worrying about, you know, old blog posts and that kind of thing, because many, many agencies neglect their websites. Until they decide all of a sudden, this is how I’m gonna get new business. And so then they over invest in time and money Yes. In their websites. Yes. So it, it, it does seem to be a story of extremes most of the time, but, but looking at that homepage of your website and making sure that it accurately reflects the business that you are: who you serve, what you do, and that it is very crystal clear about those things on your homepage. Very first step. Do not pass go. Do not do anything else. Just get that done first. Then I would say, look at the about page and make sure that it accurately reflects who you and your team are. Make sure that the right people are there. Make sure that your bio is accurate and up to date. Make sure that your photo is up to date and have a photo, by the way, because people like to deal with other people. Yep. And as someone who does professional headshots for people on the side, I gotta tell you, you gotta have something that’s within the last five years at least. I mean, if I put up a photo on the website of me with hair, that’s just, that’s not, that doesn’t make any sense. And yet I see plenty of people, Gini Dietrich: no, Chip Griffin: who have photos on their websites. And then I meet them and I’m like, this is not even in the ballpark. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, you’re right. The other thing I will say to that, and this is incredibly important, is that AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different, the websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is. So when you’re doing that audit, I would also audit your bio. Your bio that’s on the website compared to what it’s on LinkedIn compared to what it is on all the other social media platforms. If you have YouTube or a podcast platform, compare it to there. If you have a newsletter, compare it to there. Like ensure that it is the exact same bio, not, not, little changes based on the platform. I mean, you’ll have to make it smaller for Twitter than you would for LinkedIn, right? But it has to be consistent because if it’s not, AI gets confused and doesn’t know what to do, and so it just doesn’t present you as an option. So as you’re doing that audit, I would ensure that the bio, your own bio and then the bios of your key leadership or key team members are consistent across every platform on the internet, because that’s incredibly important with AI today. Chip Griffin: Yes. At the same time, what I would say to you is AI and SEO are very important. More important are the humans who actually visit your website. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And so there’s lots of advice out there, including what we’re talking about here that will help you from an AI and SEO standpoint. However, it should never, ever, ever be at the expense of the actual user’s experience. Gini Dietrich: No, never. Right. Chip Griffin: And increasingly, I’m seeing websites that are being tailored for how they think that AI will be reading and indexing their sites. And so, for example, they shift almost entirely to a Q&A format because AI, generally speaking, loves the Q&A format in order to stock the answers that it gives to people. However, that’s not always the best user experience. Sometimes you need to present things in more of a compelling story like way. And trust me, the AI will figure it out. It may not be as great at it today. It may prefer the Q, but it’s going to improve over time. And it’s the same thing as for years, people would chase the latest algorithm change at Google. And that’s fantastic until they change it in three months or six months. Right. And so what are you gonna do? Just keep updating your website? Well, if you’re an SEO agency, you love that, right? Because. You know, you can just tell the clients, well, you know the latest version, now you gotta do this. So you remember all that work we did in January? It’s June now. I’ll do it again. We’re gonna redo all of that for you, right? I mean, it’s a great full employment act for SEO experts. However, it is not generally a good user experience, nor frankly, a particularly good use of resources. So first and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay. Are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think the point you make about how Google updated updates it algorithm like real often and that you are trying to keep up is, is ludicrous, but it’s something that we’ve always been aware of and I think the strategy has not changed. If you always write, produce, not just write, but create content that’s compelling to a human. The algorithms and the AI are going to love it so that doesn’t matter. Are there things you can do to help it and AI find you? Sure you can do Q&A’s, you can do the, but that we do that stuff and this is gonna get techy, but we do that stuff on no follow sites, so it doesn’t show up in Google. It doesn’t show up in our navigation. It’s only there for the AI bots, right? So there are things that you could do for sure. But if you always put the human beings first, it’s going to work no matter what happens with AI, and no matter what happens with the algorithms. Google came out, gosh, several years ago now, and said, if you’re focused on expertise, experience, authority, and trust, those are the, those are how we’re using, that’s how we’re floating stuff to the top. So I think that’s really good advice because that is always going to A, make your content different, and B, make it valuable to humans. So if you’re always demonstrating your expertise that nobody else has and your experience that nobody else has, that will build authority and trust in both places. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the irony is that all of the experts will help you to chase the algorithms and the technology, but the reality is that all of the search engines and all of the AI engines, they’re all chasing the user. All they’re trying to do is try to deliver what a real person wants. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so it’s ironic that, that we set them aside, the humans aside to chase the technology when the technology is chasing the people. So it’s kind of a weird circle and I’ve consistently maintained for 20 plus years. If you focus on the user, you’ll get to the right place. You may not be there today. And, and it, it’s gonna ebb and flow over time as algorithms and technology changes. But chase the user because that’s how you sell your business. That’s how you find new clients and that’s how you keep people happy. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, yes. Focus on the humans first. That’s always been the advice. That strategy has not changed. The tools change, the tactics change, the execution changes, but the strategy remains the same. Chip Griffin: So let’s say, you know, you’re, you’ve gone through this audit on your website. You’ve chucked out the things like the praise of Elon Musk that you don’t want on there anymore. You’ve gotten rid of the content that’s no longer relevant to the business that you are today. So now you’re left with some things that you could update, you know, maybe you could strengthen them. They’re not obviously wrong. They’re still pretty good. How do you decide where you want to invest your energy as far as which of these do you update? Which of those do you flesh out and make bigger deals? Because I think that’s where the real challenge comes in. You know, do you, are you better off updating old content or are you better off creating new content? Gini Dietrich: I think it depends, which is the tagline to this podcast, of course, but, it depends on a few things. One, if you, if there’s older content that you can refresh and update with minimal resources, like it’s just a five or 10 minute, gosh, this needs to change, this needs to change, and then I republish it and it’s showing up in Google results. I think it’s probably worth doing it. Obviously if it doesn’t support or reflect where you are right now, I would not worry about it. But if there are things where you have some SEO value or AI is using it to bring real humans to your website based on the questions they’re ans they’re asking and it’s accurate, then I would take a few minutes to update it. And like I said, maybe you, you create a list of things that you need to do and you just check one off a week. Right? And then I would focus my efforts on new stuff. So where are we now? What are we thinking? How are we? How have we evolved? What kinds of things are we offering to the industry? That kind of stuff. So I would first focus on the stuff that you can repurpose because it’s easier and it’s a smaller lift, and you still have the value of SEO from that perspective, and then focus on the new. But like I said, if your website in general, your homepage, your about us page are not updated, I would start there. Chip Griffin: And I think it’s important that you, as you’re looking at the old content, that you’re thinking about refreshing that, that you don’t look at it through the lens of I could make this perfect if I spent some more time on it. It really, you have to see that there’s some, that the outcome for the user, again, going back to the person on the other end, is meaningfully different because of the additional work that you’ve put in. I mean, if it’s just simply that it’s phrased better, it’s organized, neater. It’s, you know, a little bit clearer that that’s probably not enough for me. Right. But if you’re able to, you know, things have changed between then and now as far as either what’s going on in the world, what’s out there, what your knowledge is, and you can, you can make it 50% better. Okay. Now you’re talking about something that, that may be worth the investment of time and energy, but if it’s, you know, if you’re just, you know, kind of polishing. That generally isn’t gonna pay off. Gini Dietrich: Totally agree with it. Yep. Totally agree. Yeah. If it’s new, like if it’s your thinking has evolved and it supports that and you just need to polish that piece or you know, like… We are constantly evolving the PESO model. And so I’m always looking at that content to say, oh gosh, that doesn’t represent where it is anymore. Right? Do I wanna put a date on this or a year in the content so that anybody who visits it understands that this is three years old. Do I wanna delete it? Like, so I, you know, I’m constantly. Our marketing team and I are constantly looking at those kinds of things, so I totally agree. If it’s just a polish, I wouldn’t spend the time. But if it’s evolved thinking, if it’s new services, if it’s new products, if it’s new IP, if it’s, you know, those kinds of things, then I would definitely include it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Well, hopefully we’ve given people some good ideas so that they can take a fresh look at their website as we start the year. And figure out, you know, what they might wanna tweak, improve, get rid of, hide from, any of those things. And it, it doesn’t have to be a giant project as you suggested. No. It can be the kind of thing where you chip away at one piece of content a week or something like that and you’ll see a meaningful difference over the course of time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yep. Get it done. Get that homepage updated. Chip Griffin: So with that, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it does depend.

You built an agency you’re proud of. So why does your website still feature that glowing tribute to someone you wouldn’t recommend today, or explain services you stopped offering three years ago? In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle the unsexy but critical task of auditing your agency’s website content. They share practical approaches for identifying what needs updating, what deserves deletion, and how to prioritize your efforts when you’re staring down hundreds (or thousands) of outdated pages. The conversation covers everything from quick wins—like updating your homepage and key pages—to strategic decisions about high-traffic content that no longer serves your business. Gini shares her process for using tools like Screaming Frog to audit content systematically, while Chip emphasizes the importance of focusing on human users rather than chasing every algorithm change. They also dive into the balance between refreshing old content and creating new material, with specific guidance on when each approach makes sense. The episode wraps with a reminder that consistency matters more than perfection—especially when AI is increasingly using your bio and content to determine whether to recommend you. If your website is starting to feel like a liability rather than an asset, this episode offers a manageable roadmap to get it back on track without turning it into a year-long project. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “First and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay, are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing?” Gini Dietrich: “I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards.” Chip Griffin: “If you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the way the world has changed, you know, those are ones that you want to address.” Gini Dietrich: “AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is.” Turn ideas into action Audit your homepage today. Open your website and read your homepage copy with fresh eyes—does it accurately reflect who you serve, what you do, and where your agency stands today? If not, block two hours this week to rewrite it. This is your most important page and the fastest way to stop misrepresenting your business. Check Google Analytics for your top 20 pages. Identify which pages drive the most traffic, then ask yourself if each one still serves your business or if you’re just attracting irrelevant visitors. Kill off pages that generate traffic but don’t support your current positioning—inflated vanity metrics aren’t worth the confusion. Ensure bio consistency across platforms. Compare your bio on your website, LinkedIn, and other platforms where you appear. Make them consistent (accounting for character limits) so AI can confidently present you as an option when people search for expertise in your area. Related Real talk about agency websites How to think about your agency's website View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m old. Gini Dietrich: Yes, you are. Chip Griffin: But you know what else is old? Gini Dietrich: What else? Chip Griffin: Some of the content on my website. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, sure. Mine too. Yeah. Chip Griffin: It’s, it’s one of the perils of having been around for a while. Gini Dietrich: Yes, indeed. Chip Griffin: Both as a human, as a business. And so we have a lot of content out there on the website that maybe isn’t as current as we’d like it to be. Some of it I haven’t looked at in many years, so I don’t even know if it’s up to date or not. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: I’m sure that many of our listeners have content on their website or maybe entire websites that are old and out of date. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So my question to you is, how should we be thinking about this kind of, how do we deal with this problem? Or we, we can’t just spend, I mean, I, I don’t know about you, but my website’s got over a thousand different pieces of content on it. Oh yeah. Now I think most of our listeners probably don’t have websites with quite that much content on it, but some do, and even if you’ve only got a couple hundred, you know, that’s still a substantial body of content that you need to audit in some fashion. So what, what do you do about that? Gini Dietrich: You know, it’s funny, this conversation is happening right now because about a week ago, right after the holidays, I got an email from a friend that said, Hey, uh, I don’t know if you know this or not, but you have a blog post from, from 13 years ago, literally 13 years ago, praising Elon Musk. And I was like, well, let’s delete that! But like, I don’t know how she found that. She must have been searching on the site for something and found it. Right. So I think it’s important to do an audit and I did delete it. I moved it to the trash. But, I think it is important to do an audit. We have a client that said to us, we don’t think we need new content. We have plenty. And we went in and we’re like, okay, great. Let’s do an audit and see. And we audited it and they do have plenty of content, but the most recent is two and a half years old. So one of the things that we’re working on with them right now, well, twofold. One is going through the audit that we did to see what needs to stay with an update, a refresh, and what should be deleted. There are lots of, there’s lot, there’s lots of content on their site. And actually this will appeal to many of you listeners too. There’s content on their website that has some great SEO value. You know, showing up first in Google results and things like that. So you don’t wanna get rid of that content, but it probably needs a good update. It probably needs to be refreshed. It probably needs new quotes, new experts, new expertise, new statistics, whatever it happens to be. So that’s what I would do. It’s pretty easy. We use, Screaming Frog to do the audit, so it’ll, it will look at your entire website and then give you an Excel list of all of your links, and then you can go and you can tell it I want dates and topic and all that kind of stuff. And you can go through that fairly easily to say, this is old, we don’t need that. Move that to a different tab. This is good stuff. We don’t wanna lose it. And then I would compare that to what you’re keep, I would compare what you’re keeping to do a Google search. Are you show, are those links showing up in Google? And I would also ask AI. Are you showing, is AI showing that content in its answers. So you probably, I would venture to guess, like you and me, we, it would be a really big undertaking ’cause we have years and years of content. But for most agency owners, I would guess it’s probably a, I dunno… And you can use AI to help you, but it’s probably a two or three hour thing that you can split up over several weeks, right? To get it done. But 100% you should be, you should have an up update up to date website overall, and you should be updating content so that it’s refreshed, not necessarily the URL, but updating the content inside the article or the blog post or the page or whatever it happens to be. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I, I think the advice to sort of just kind of, you know, go through a list of it is a really good starting point. Whether you use some third party tool, or frankly, if your website isn’t too huge, if you just go into WordPress and start scrolling back through the pages and posts. Mm-hmm. And just looking at the headlines, it at least, you know, things that are obviously in need of help will jump out at you. Yeah. Or you know, that you praise somebody that doesn’t make sense or whatever. And, and we have to keep in mind that, that sometimes that old content might be a year old, it might be 10 years old, right? It might still need some sort of an updating. The other thing that’s, that’s often helpful is just to go into, you know, something simple like your Google Analytics and just look at, you know, the top 20, 30, 40 pages in terms of traffic and just ask, are all of these pages the way I still want to present myself in whatever the current year is that you’re listening to us? Because, you know, that can be a really helpful way of prioritizing what you wanna address, what you wanna update. And particularly if you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the, the way the world has changed. You know, those are ones that you want to address. I, to me, one of the interesting cases is, you know what, and I’ve seen this a lot, and I, some of the organizations I’ve worked with have had this issue where you’ve got a page that gets a ton of traffic, but it’s frankly totally irrelevant to what they do today. Right. It’s still, it’s still an accurate bit of content, which is why it keeps getting traffic, you know, because it’s answering whatever question the searcher may have had, but it doesn’t really benefit the organization other than it does produce a fair amount of inbound traffic. So, to me, those are interesting cases. Trying to figure out what you do with those. And, if you talk to different SEO experts, you sometimes hear different bits of advice on this, right? Because some are like, well, you know, you, you’re still getting people clicking over to your site, and that’s a good signal for the search engines, so that’s good. The problem is if the signal is that you’re relevant for something that you really aren’t relevant for. Right. So, doesn’t really help you. My general inclination is if it’s completely irrelevant to what you do today, I would kill it off and sacrifice the traffic. But that’s, that’s my perspective on that. No, I totally agree with that. Either way you should make a conscious decision about it. Gini Dietrich: I totally agree with that because I think you’re right. If it’s not some, if it’s irrelevant, if you’re bringing irrelevant traffic to your website, your numbers are inflated. So I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards. Right. So I completely agree with you and like I said, I killed that article from 13 years ago. Because that’s not how I feel about that man anymore. So, yeah. At all. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, for, for many years on my personal blog, the highest trafficked post was one, was sort of a throwaway post I did on a camera backpack, that I got like 20 years ago. And it just, it scored, it turned out it was a popular model of the backpack, and so it got a ton of traffic from people who were considering buying it. Obviously that didn’t help me at all. Gini Dietrich: Not at all. Right. Chip Griffin: Because that, I mean, you know, I didn’t pitch camera backpacks or anything like that, you know, I didn’t sell ’em, I didn’t even have an affiliate link in or anything like that. So what, you know, what was the value of it? Pretty much nothing. You know, it felt nice to see all the spikes in traffic that it generated. Sure. Of course. But yeah. But it wasn’t particularly useful, so, and those are the kinds of things that, that many of us may, you know, maybe we just had a comment on our blog about some story of the day. And it just took off and for whatever reason still sticks around. But it’s not really what our agency is about, so doesn’t really help. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I would really look at, I mean, some of your ideas, especially if you don’t have a ton of content like we do going, just going through WordPress and looking to see. I would start with the content on your website specifically, what’s on your homepage? Does it represent who you are and what you stand for today? Does it accurately reflect where you are today? I would venture to guess the answer for most of us is no. I would start there at least with the homepage and your top three or four pages, so probably your services page, probably your about us page. Maybe a resources page, depending on, again, look at your Google Analytics. Then once you’ve done that, then I would definitely go through WordPress and go through any content that you have, podcasts, recordings, videos, blog posts, whatever it happens to be. Go through all of those and then divide and conquer and say, yeah, we’re gonna have to update these. It may take me all year, but I’m gonna do one a week and I’m gonna update one a week. And it suddenly, you’re taking small bites of the elephant and you can get it done by year’s end. Chip Griffin: I love your advice to look at the homepage and other key pages before worrying about, you know, old blog posts and that kind of thing, because many, many agencies neglect their websites. Until they decide all of a sudden, this is how I’m gonna get new business. And so then they over invest in time and money Yes. In their websites. Yes. So it, it, it does seem to be a story of extremes most of the time, but, but looking at that homepage of your website and making sure that it accurately reflects the business that you are: who you serve, what you do, and that it is very crystal clear about those things on your homepage. Very first step. Do not pass go. Do not do anything else. Just get that done first. Then I would say, look at the about page and make sure that it accurately reflects who you and your team are. Make sure that the right people are there. Make sure that your bio is accurate and up to date. Make sure that your photo is up to date and have a photo, by the way, because people like to deal with other people. Yep. And as someone who does professional headshots for people on the side, I gotta tell you, you gotta have something that’s within the last five years at least. I mean, if I put up a photo on the website of me with hair, that’s just, that’s not, that doesn’t make any sense. And yet I see plenty of people, Gini Dietrich: no, Chip Griffin: who have photos on their websites. And then I meet them and I’m like, this is not even in the ballpark. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, you’re right. The other thing I will say to that, and this is incredibly important, is that AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different, the websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is. So when you’re doing that audit, I would also audit your bio. Your bio that’s on the website compared to what it’s on LinkedIn compared to what it is on all the other social media platforms. If you have YouTube or a podcast platform, compare it to there. If you have a newsletter, compare it to there. Like ensure that it is the exact same bio, not, not, little changes based on the platform. I mean, you’ll have to make it smaller for Twitter than you would for LinkedIn, right? But it has to be consistent because if it’s not, AI gets confused and doesn’t know what to do, and so it just doesn’t present you as an option. So as you’re doing that audit, I would ensure that the bio, your own bio and then the bios of your key leadership or key team members are consistent across every platform on the internet, because that’s incredibly important with AI today. Chip Griffin: Yes. At the same time, what I would say to you is AI and SEO are very important. More important are the humans who actually visit your website. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And so there’s lots of advice out there, including what we’re talking about here that will help you from an AI and SEO standpoint. However, it should never, ever, ever be at the expense of the actual user’s experience. Gini Dietrich: No, never. Right. Chip Griffin: And increasingly, I’m seeing websites that are being tailored for how they think that AI will be reading and indexing their sites. And so, for example, they shift almost entirely to a Q&A format because AI, generally speaking, loves the Q&A format in order to stock the answers that it gives to people. However, that’s not always the best user experience. Sometimes you need to present things in more of a compelling story like way. And trust me, the AI will figure it out. It may not be as great at it today. It may prefer the Q, but it’s going to improve over time. And it’s the same thing as for years, people would chase the latest algorithm change at Google. And that’s fantastic until they change it in three months or six months. Right. And so what are you gonna do? Just keep updating your website? Well, if you’re an SEO agency, you love that, right? Because. You know, you can just tell the clients, well, you know the latest version, now you gotta do this. So you remember all that work we did in January? It’s June now. I’ll do it again. We’re gonna redo all of that for you, right? I mean, it’s a great full employment act for SEO experts. However, it is not generally a good user experience, nor frankly, a particularly good use of resources. So first and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay. Are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think the point you make about how Google updated updates it algorithm like real often and that you are trying to keep up is, is ludicrous, but it’s something that we’ve always been aware of and I think the strategy has not changed. If you always write, produce, not just write, but create content that’s compelling to a human. The algorithms and the AI are going to love it so that doesn’t matter. Are there things you can do to help it and AI find you? Sure you can do Q&A’s, you can do the, but that we do that stuff and this is gonna get techy, but we do that stuff on no follow sites, so it doesn’t show up in Google. It doesn’t show up in our navigation. It’s only there for the AI bots, right? So there are things that you could do for sure. But if you always put the human beings first, it’s going to work no matter what happens with AI, and no matter what happens with the algorithms. Google came out, gosh, several years ago now, and said, if you’re focused on expertise, experience, authority, and trust, those are the, those are how we’re using, that’s how we’re floating stuff to the top. So I think that’s really good advice because that is always going to A, make your content different, and B, make it valuable to humans. So if you’re always demonstrating your expertise that nobody else has and your experience that nobody else has, that will build authority and trust in both places. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the irony is that all of the experts will help you to chase the algorithms and the technology, but the reality is that all of the search engines and all of the AI engines, they’re all chasing the user. All they’re trying to do is try to deliver what a real person wants. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so it’s ironic that, that we set them aside, the humans aside to chase the technology when the technology is chasing the people. So it’s kind of a weird circle and I’ve consistently maintained for 20 plus years. If you focus on the user, you’ll get to the right place. You may not be there today. And, and it, it’s gonna ebb and flow over time as algorithms and technology changes. But chase the user because that’s how you sell your business. That’s how you find new clients and that’s how you keep people happy. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, yes. Focus on the humans first. That’s always been the advice. That strategy has not changed. The tools change, the tactics change, the execution changes, but the strategy remains the same. Chip Griffin: So let’s say, you know, you’re, you’ve gone through this audit on your website. You’ve chucked out the things like the praise of Elon Musk that you don’t want on there anymore. You’ve gotten rid of the content that’s no longer relevant to the business that you are today. So now you’re left with some things that you could update, you know, maybe you could strengthen them. They’re not obviously wrong. They’re still pretty good. How do you decide where you want to invest your energy as far as which of these do you update? Which of those do you flesh out and make bigger deals? Because I think that’s where the real challenge comes in. You know, do you, are you better off updating old content or are you better off creating new content? Gini Dietrich: I think it depends, which is the tagline to this podcast, of course, but, it depends on a few things. One, if you, if there’s older content that you can refresh and update with minimal resources, like it’s just a five or 10 minute, gosh, this needs to change, this needs to change, and then I republish it and it’s showing up in Google results. I think it’s probably worth doing it. Obviously if it doesn’t support or reflect where you are right now, I would not worry about it. But if there are things where you have some SEO value or AI is using it to bring real humans to your website based on the questions they’re ans they’re asking and it’s accurate, then I would take a few minutes to update it. And like I said, maybe you, you create a list of things that you need to do and you just check one off a week. Right? And then I would focus my efforts on new stuff. So where are we now? What are we thinking? How are we? How have we evolved? What kinds of things are we offering to the industry? That kind of stuff. So I would first focus on the stuff that you can repurpose because it’s easier and it’s a smaller lift, and you still have the value of SEO from that perspective, and then focus on the new. But like I said, if your website in general, your homepage, your about us page are not updated, I would start there. Chip Griffin: And I think it’s important that you, as you’re looking at the old content, that you’re thinking about refreshing that, that you don’t look at it through the lens of I could make this perfect if I spent some more time on it. It really, you have to see that there’s some, that the outcome for the user, again, going back to the person on the other end, is meaningfully different because of the additional work that you’ve put in. I mean, if it’s just simply that it’s phrased better, it’s organized, neater. It’s, you know, a little bit clearer that that’s probably not enough for me. Right. But if you’re able to, you know, things have changed between then and now as far as either what’s going on in the world, what’s out there, what your knowledge is, and you can, you can make it 50% better. Okay. Now you’re talking about something that, that may be worth the investment of time and energy, but if it’s, you know, if you’re just, you know, kind of polishing. That generally isn’t gonna pay off. Gini Dietrich: Totally agree with it. Yep. Totally agree. Yeah. If it’s new, like if it’s your thinking has evolved and it supports that and you just need to polish that piece or you know, like… We are constantly evolving the PESO model. And so I’m always looking at that content to say, oh gosh, that doesn’t represent where it is anymore. Right? Do I wanna put a date on this or a year in the content so that anybody who visits it understands that this is three years old. Do I wanna delete it? Like, so I, you know, I’m constantly. Our marketing team and I are constantly looking at those kinds of things, so I totally agree. If it’s just a polish, I wouldn’t spend the time. But if it’s evolved thinking, if it’s new services, if it’s new products, if it’s new IP, if it’s, you know, those kinds of things, then I would definitely include it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Well, hopefully we’ve given people some good ideas so that they can take a fresh look at their website as we start the year. And figure out, you know, what they might wanna tweak, improve, get rid of, hide from, any of those things. And it, it doesn’t have to be a giant project as you suggested. No. It can be the kind of thing where you chip away at one piece of content a week or something like that and you’ll see a meaningful difference over the course of time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yep. Get it done. Get that homepage updated. Chip Griffin: So with that, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it does depend.

In Season 4, Episode 7 'Evacuating the West' of the Changing Earth Audio Drama, Erika battles melancholy worries about leaving Greg and Penni behind as the convoy pushes east through rising quakes. Bennet defies his superior and lands in jail to aid friends, Virgis organizes daring multi-person rescues from Hope town, and TJ ensures Gini has companionship while D'lores receives care. Rules bend when faith and right demand it in a world of tyranny and aftershocks.This episode adapts Sara F. Hathaway's Changing Earth novel series, including 'Battle For The South'—explore the full books and shop exclusive merch at ChangingEarthSeries.com. #PostApocalyptic #AudioDrama Discover the performers and musical attributes at authorsarafhathaway.com/season-4 Become a subscriber and get one-week commercial free early access at authorsarafhathaway.com/supportBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/prepper-broadcasting-network--3295097/support.BECOME A SUPPORTER FOR AD FREE PODCASTS, EARLY ACCESS & TONS OF MEMBERS ONLY CONTENT!Get Prepared with Our Incredible Sponsors! Survival Bags, kits, gear www.limatangosurvival.comThe Prepper's Medical Handbook Build Your Medical Cache – Welcome PBN FamilyThe All In One Disaster Relief Device! www.hydronamis.comJoin the Prepper Broadcasting Network for expert insights on #Survival, #Prepping, #SelfReliance, #OffGridLiving, #Homesteading, #Homestead building, #SelfSufficiency, #Permaculture, #OffGrid solutions, and #SHTF preparedness. With diverse hosts and shows, get practical tips to thrive independently – subscribe now!

Brenda J and Karen B welcome Gini Larsen back to the show for an honest and compassionate conversation around one of the most difficult topics for abuse and trauma survivors—forgiveness. Gini holds a meaningful place in both Brenda and Karen's lives, arranging the Mending the Soul group where Brenda and Karen first met. Gini Larsen is a certified Christian counselor with over 25 years of counseling experience. She holds a master's degree from Arizona State University's College of Social Work and has extensive trauma-focused training, integrating professional clinical insight with Christian therapy and pastoral counseling. Brenda and Karen vulnerably share how hard forgiveness can be for survivors, especially when abusers remain unrepentant and emotions like anger and grief feel overwhelming. Gini offers a healthy, Christ-centered approach to forgiveness—one that does not minimize harm, but points to God for healing. She explains how forgiveness is ultimately about glorifying God and allowing Him to restore and heal the survivor's heart. They also talk about what forgiveness is NOT in this episode. This is a heartfelt and hope-filled conversation you won't want to miss. www.biblicalhopecounseling.org https://hangingontohope.org

As agency owners settle into 2026, it’s easy to operate on autopilot—chasing the next tactic without reconnecting with what made the business work in the first place. In this episode, Chip and Gini make the case for looking backward before charging forward. Chip admits his first agency started because “consultant” sounded better than “unemployed.” But the real question isn’t just why you started—it’s why you decided to keep building. That motivation should be informing your strategy today. Gini shares how she once believed she wanted a large agency with hundreds of employees and global clients. When she hit 30+ people, she realized she’d built something she didn’t enjoy leading. She was buried in HR issues instead of doing the work that energized her. The Great Recession forced a reset, and she restructured the business around her strengths. Her advice: figure out what brings you joy in the business, and protect time to do more of it. Otherwise, you risk drifting into micromanagement or burnout. The episode also digs into practical growth tactics from the early days that still work. Gini recalls how she built her pipeline by developing relationships with business development leads at large agencies. When prospects came in below their fee threshold, they’d refer the work her way—a principle that remains just as relevant today. Both hosts encourage owners to revisit their “things I’d never do” list from when they started. It’s worth checking whether you’ve quietly drifted into those same patterns over time. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Agency owners often ask me, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business.” Gini Dietrich: “We say this to clients all the time, go back to the basics. It works. And it works for your agency, too.” Chip Griffin: “You need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days.” Gini Dietrich: “You want to focus on the things that you are great at, and the things that make you the happiest, and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow.” Turn ideas into action Write down why you started your agency and what drove your early success. Block 30 minutes to identify patterns from those early days that you could leverage again for growth or business development today. Identify one thing that energizes you most about the work—then carve out time to do more of it. Even if it’s behind the scenes (like strategic brainstorming or quarterly client reviews), injecting that spark back into your role helps prevent burnout. Make a quick list of “things I swore I’d never do” when you started. Check whether you’ve drifted into any of those patterns on inertia—and decide if it’s a learned lesson or a habit worth breaking. Related Do you remember why you started your agency? Why one-size-fits-all advice doesn't work for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m thinking way, way back, way back decades now to why I started my agency. Gini Dietrich: Oooh. Decades, huh? Chip Griffin: And I can’t remember ’cause I’m too old now, so. No, Gini Dietrich: you can too remember. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the honest answer is that I started my first agency was because I was unemployed. And it was better to describe myself as a consultant than unemployed. Yeah. Sure. And then than accidentally started accumulating business. Yeah. But I, but I do think it, it is a helpful exercise for us to go back and, and think about why we started the businesses or, or maybe not, in some cases, like mine, because I was unemployed, is not the greatest explanation. So you know more why did I decide to, to, to build it into an actual business. Gini Dietrich: Why? To keep going. Yeah. I think that’s good, especially as we’re, we’re thinking about starting out the new year and remind ourselves, you know, of the reasons that we started this. Some of us do it because we’re, we’re unemployed. Some of us did it because we found a better, we, we think we had a better way of doing things. Some of us did it because we have a problem with authority. Some of us did it ’cause we’d make terrible employees. I mean, there are lots of different reasons, but I think reaching back into our archives in our brains and thinking about why we did it or why we, I think that you’re right, why we continue to do it is a, is a really good exercise. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, and, and I’ve said over and over again over the years that, that I think too many agencies operate on inertia, as opposed to any kind of a, a fundamental strategy. And so, you know, it’s very easy to say as, as I’m sure many people ask you as they do me, well, what’s the, what’s my next step? Here’s where my agency is now, what, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business. So trying to think back to those early days and what motivated you to start the business. Evaluate it because it, that may have changed, right? You, you may have started it because it served a particular need in the moment, and maybe it’s different today, but thinking about that and thinking about what you really want from the business is usually a better way to come up with strategic decisions than it is to say, well, what do other agencies like mine do when they get to this stage of growth or to this challenge? It’s, you really need to to match it up because otherwise, what’s the point of taking on all of that risk and stress of being a business owner? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, a really good example of that is I really thought I wanted to build a great big agency with hundreds of employees and, and clients around the globe and all of the, all of the things. And as I started to grow and we got to about 30 ish, 33, 32 people, I realized that’s not what I wanna do. Right. It was not enjoyable. I had built a company that I was not thriving in, that I didn’t enjoy leading. You know, I was dealing mostly with HR issues and not doing the work. And so the, the Great Recession did afford me the opportunity, unfortunately and fortunately to kind of take a step back and, and think about what kind of business do I want to have? And what kind of business do I want to lead? And while we’re back up to that same size, it’s a different structured business that allows me to focus in on the things that I do best and do the things that I enjoy versus HR ’cause that is not something I enjoy at all. Chip Griffin: I, I think I’ve yet to meet an owner who likes, enjoys doing HR or accounting or those sorts of things. Not fun. There are some who do it well. But don’t enjoy it. But I, I don’t think I’ve found any that actually enjoy doing it. So, but, but I think that, you know, as you think back to those early days and you think about what motivated you, it can often help you to figure out, you know, what is, what is that spark that you need in the business for you to either continue enjoying it for a longer period of time or bring back some of that, that joy that you had in those early days. Because I know a lot of agency owners these days are, are frustrated and, you know, trying to figure out how to change things for the better. And I think part of the way you inform yourself of that is by thinking back to those early motivations and figuring out how you can inject more of that into your business today. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s really important to do that. And I think there, you know, for me personally, I get really passionate and enjoy my job when I’m learning and doing new things. So artificial intelligence, of course, has been a great big thing for me because I’ve really enjoyed learning it and understanding it and implementing it into my business and then taking it to clients. You know, last month we launched the PESO operating system, AI edition, where the AI prompts you instead of you prompting it. So it will say, what are your business objectives? What are you trying to achieve? What are your audiences? What are your messaging? And then it builds a PESO program for you that’s fully integrated versus you saying I need you to act like a marketing director who can, who understands PESO and can build this and this. It’s that. So I like, those are the kinds of things that really get me excited. And building those kinds of things gets me excited and motivated. So it’s, it’s easy because I understand that about myself. It drives my team crazy ’cause they’re like, oh, she’s got something new. Or my, their favorite thing is, I had an idea. And they’re like, oh no, no, not again. But that’s what keeps me, yeah, that’s what keeps me motivated. So finding a way to understand what brings you joy in the business, I think is incredibly important. So that without exhausting your team, of course, but doing it in a way that keeps you motivated and, and not burned out. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One of the things that always used to, to drive my teams nuts was I would say, you know, over the weekend I was playing with this new thing. And, and you could just see the looks on their faces and they’re like, oh, this is a lot more work for me now. Gini Dietrich: This is gonna be fun. Yep. Chip Griffin: This is, yep. Yep. They, they never seemed to appreciate it the way that I had hoped they would when I came to them. Correct. With these, these brilliant brainstorms of mine. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I, and I think as, as you know, founders of agencies, most of us come in with some sort of that. Idea that, that we want to be creative or strategic or those kinds of things. And as we end up in more of a management role, we have less and less opportunities to do it. So I, I think that, that rather than giving up on that dream, we need to figure out how we can sprinkle enough of that in there to keep ourselves motivated. We can’t give up the, the management piece. We can’t give up the business development piece. Many of us would like to. But the, the reality is that, unless you’ve built a fairly large agency, you just don’t have the ability to pull yourself out of that, as a solo owner. But it doesn’t mean that you have to give up on those things entirely. You can carve out a piece of time to work on that, and if you are structuring your role in such a way that you’re enjoying what you’re doing, it also means that you’re frankly less likely to be doing the, the, the bad things that founders of businesses can do, which is micromanagement and tinkering with things that you don’t really belong in because you, because you’re not occupying yourself with the things that really motivate you. And instead, you’re continuing to try to do every aspect of the business. And that’s where you start to, to run into team morale problems quite often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned over the years is that, yes, I can do the work, and yes, I can probably do it pretty well, but is it really something that I should be focused on? And if not, is it something that I can pay an expert to do because in the long run, it’ll cost me less money, less time, less resources, all of the things. And I know as small agency owners, it’s really hard to say, gosh, I’m gonna have to spend $2000 or $3,000 a month on an expert. When in fact it might save you, you know, 15 or 20 grand on the backend. So I think you have to think about these things as investments in your business and investments in your time so that you can focus on the things that, that you are great at and the things that make you the happiest and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And if, if that happens to be being creative and strategic, then, then you can, you shouldn’t be doing it day to day in all likelihood for clients. Sure. But you should find ways to do it either as part of, you know, quarterly or annual client reviews. Or internal brainstorming sessions that you’re engaging in. There’s a lot of things you can do behind the scenes to be useful and, and to, to exercise those muscles in a way that that gives you satisfaction. But doesn’t put you on the front lines so that you’re, you know, now the, the one that the, the client decides they’re gonna call every time they’ve got an issue. Because that, that ends up eating up a lot of your time in a way that probably you’re not going to enjoy. So sometimes it’s doing things behind the scenes that gets you the, the most value, or doing annual in person with the client. But they understand it’s special that you’re here, this is not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is not something they can or should expect every week. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I, I know I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but we do quarterly planning with our clients. We do a quarterly look back, and then we, you know, say, okay, based on metrics and data and all that and your priorities, here’s what we’re suggesting for quarter two or in the next quarter. And that has afforded many opportunities. A, for me to, to work in my where I’m, where I’m strong, but it also almost always gets us more money. So when you’re, when agency owners are like, oh, should I do a cost of living raise every year? Should I increase by 10 or 15% every year? That kind of goes away because you are getting new projects every quarter based on the the plan and the strategic strategy and creativity that you’re providing to the clients every quarter, because they’re like, oh gosh, yeah, we should actually do that. And some, and sometimes they’ll say, we don’t have extra budget. Can we move some things around? Which is okay, but most of the time they’ll say, you know, we, we have a little extra budget. Let’s focus on doing that. We have to launch a new website. Here’s some extra budget for that. We have to do a series of webinars to maintain our CEUs. Let’s here’s a little extra budget for that. So there are things and opportunities for you to, for lack of a better term, term upsell when you’re doing these quarterly meetings versus waiting for the annual. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and so, you know, finding a way to, to inject yourself in those things is a valuable exercise. Absolutely. From that, look back to the early days. But the other thing that that can be helpful in looking back to your early days of your agency is, you know, what helps drive your early success? Because a lot of times when we’re trying to find solutions to our current growth issues, we can find clues in some of those early days and mm-hmm. A lot of that, you know, in the early days of, of most agencies, it may be that low hanging fruit from personal networks and things like that. But there are usually other patterns that you might be able to see there that might help you to understand what are, what are the basics that you need to go back to? How do you, how do you employ some of those rather than, than focusing on, you know, all of the fancy new things that you see, you know, some, you know, genius podcast hosts talking about as far as how to grow an agency and instead say, Hey, this is what worked for me. Yep. Because you may find something that works again today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we say this to clients all the time, but going back to the basics. It works. And it works for you too, so absolutely you should think about those kinds of things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, you didn’t get here by accident. Well, maybe you got, maybe it’s a little bit of an accident sometimes that happens. Maybe, yeah. Some of it. But, if you’ve had any longevity at all, even a few years of longevity as an agency owner, there are patterns that you can find usually that started in those early days. That you can lean into for understanding and rather than trying to do something wild and different, focus on the things that you know, you’ve proved can work for your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. One of the things, if I were to dig back into the archives, one of the things that worked extremely well for us is I had developed relationships with people who did business development at the large agencies, and what I found is that if they had an RFP or a current client or a prospect come in and say, we only have a quarter of a million dollars to spend. They’re not even gonna look at that. And so they started just referring that business to us, which is how I grew the business. Mm-hmm. So if I think about that now, how could we replicate that kind of, you know, pipeline development? It was extremely effective. And I, I gift that to all the listeners too. Like there are larger agencies in all of your cities that they have a certain threshold, and if any something comes in below that, they are happy to refer business. So there is, there is one way for you to start thinking about how am I going to, you know, keep myself motivated? How am I gonna keep my pipeline full? How am I gonna keep cash coming in? That’s one of the things that you can think about. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and thinking those things through. I mean, sometimes it’s not a one for one where you did exactly the same way you did it originally, but you take that nugget of an idea. And you know, things like, finding other people who can refer you business that’s not quite a fit for, for them, but might be for you. It’s a good reminder to be out there and having conversations with your peers. With people even that you might perceive sometimes as competitors, because there are often opportunities. In the work that I do with agencies, it’s not uncommon for some of the other consultants in the space to refer clients to me that are a better fit for my background and the kinds of agencies that I work with and vice versa. Because you know, we all have our specialties. And as an agency you have your specialties, so it is very common for many agencies to have grown this way. So certainly something to be looking at today, particularly if you’re struggling to find that new business in 2026. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think I really love the advice of thinking back to how you got to where you are and some of the things that you did, and going back to basics a little bit, because those are the things that are going to continue to work. And to your point, maybe tweak a little bit to make a more, be more effective in ’26. Chip Griffin: I mean, it also puts you in the right mindset, I think, because if you’re thinking back to those early stages, that tends to be when many agencies have the most growth, when things are most exciting. And so if you can try to bring back even a sprinkling of that, that can be really helpful. Particularly when times are tougher, or you’re looking for the inspiration to take things to the next level or whatever challenge you may be facing today, those lessons can be extremely valuable and also motivating at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I used to, I used to get mad at companies that would hire big PR firms for like brand awareness and, you know, sending news releases and they didn’t get any coverage. They didn’t get any results. And I would get, I would get angry and I would call the company and be like, you’re so stupid. I would never do that today. But I had such a, I was just so naive and passionate about what we were doing, that it didn’t bother me to call and be like, we can do this significantly better for you. And in some cases they laughed and hung up on me. And in some cases, like we became agency of record. Like we took AOR away from Fleischman Hillard one year from a big, big company with a big, big company. And it was because I made a phone call where I was like, I can’t believe that you’re spending this kind of money and getting these kinds, these lackluster results. They were like, all right, let’s listen. I don’t think I would do that today, but it worked. Chip Griffin: Right. But, thinking back to those things can help you do two things. One is to think some of the positive things that you can do or the affirmative steps, right. That you can take. But the, but sometimes looking back to, to how you got started can also be reminders not to do certain things. Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure. Chip Griffin: So, particularly if you’ve started an agency and maybe you worked at an agency previously when you started, you probably had this laundry list of things. I would never do these things as an agency. And I, I think back to my first agency and some of the agencies that I had worked with previously, you know, did a lot of what I felt was nickel and diming of you in terms of back in the day charging you for faxes and photocopies. Sure. Yes. And all sorts of little expenses. And so, you know, I was committed back then to making sure that my invoices were always clean and simple and fixed, and I just worked in the cost of all of these things. Into my total cost of doing business so that I never had to aggravate a client. Fast forward to today. If I found myself doing that, I, by looking back, I would say, wait a minute. Let me think about that. Am I, am I being true to what my vision was of the business? And if not, is that because I’ve actually learned something and it does make sense to do what I thought was wrong back then. Because I mean, you can learn and grow. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sure. Or have you just fallen into the trap because you walked around and you saw other people doing it. So you said, well, I’m gonna start charging for faxes too. And if you’re charging for faxes in 2026, by the way, Gini Dietrich: we have a problem, but Chip Griffin: we have a huge problem because, what the heck are you using that fax machine for? Let alone that you’re charging for it. And by the way, where did you find a fax machine? Because I haven’t seen a fax machine in person in a really long time, except maybe like at the back of a doctor’s office. The, you know, Gini Dietrich: the bank and the doctor’s office. Yeah, I think that’s it. Chip Griffin: Well, I haven’t, I don’t, I kind, I haven’t been inside a bank in a long time, but Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: everything’s, everything’s electronic now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. There’s no need for that. Chip Griffin: But yeah, think, think back to those, those motivations that you may have had that rather than I want to do this, it was, I never want to be the kind of agency that does this. Because it, it is really so easy to fall down those rabbit holes over time without even realizing that you’re just, you’re doing the same things that, that you didn’t ever want to see when you started your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s so easy to sit on social media, and you’ll get served ads from experts who say this is the way that you should do things. And in some cases it might work. And in some cases you might be like, there’s no way. And I think it’s really easy to listen to somebody and say, yeah, but we went from $3 million in debt to making $3 million a day, like, you know, these wild claims. And then you kind of get sucked into that. I think if you’re really true to who you are and what kind of agency you want to build, that’s going to enable you to say, this just doesn’t feel right to me. I’m not, I’m just gonna… great if he’s really making $3 million a day, I need to just bypass this one. Chip Griffin: Because you need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is, is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days. And by understanding the, the early months or years of your agency, the more that you can inform some of the decisions that you’re making going forward one way or the other. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Think about it. It’s a good way to start ’26. Chip Griffin: Nice positive way. We, we managed to get through an episode here without beating up on our listeners. We didn’t start the year on a negative note, did we? We started positive. We did. Think about, we think about what has worked for you previously. Yes. And do more of that. Do more. So we will do more of this on a future episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. But in the meantime, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

As agency owners settle into 2026, it’s easy to operate on autopilot—chasing the next tactic without reconnecting with what made the business work in the first place. In this episode, Chip and Gini make the case for looking backward before charging forward. Chip admits his first agency started because “consultant” sounded better than “unemployed.” But the real question isn’t just why you started—it’s why you decided to keep building. That motivation should be informing your strategy today. Gini shares how she once believed she wanted a large agency with hundreds of employees and global clients. When she hit 30+ people, she realized she’d built something she didn’t enjoy leading. She was buried in HR issues instead of doing the work that energized her. The Great Recession forced a reset, and she restructured the business around her strengths. Her advice: figure out what brings you joy in the business, and protect time to do more of it. Otherwise, you risk drifting into micromanagement or burnout. The episode also digs into practical growth tactics from the early days that still work. Gini recalls how she built her pipeline by developing relationships with business development leads at large agencies. When prospects came in below their fee threshold, they’d refer the work her way—a principle that remains just as relevant today. Both hosts encourage owners to revisit their “things I’d never do” list from when they started. It’s worth checking whether you’ve quietly drifted into those same patterns over time. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Agency owners often ask me, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business.” Gini Dietrich: “We say this to clients all the time, go back to the basics. It works. And it works for your agency, too.” Chip Griffin: “You need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days.” Gini Dietrich: “You want to focus on the things that you are great at, and the things that make you the happiest, and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow.” Turn Ideas Into Action Write down why you started your agency and what drove your early success. Block 30 minutes to identify patterns from those early days that you could leverage again for growth or business development today. Identify one thing that energizes you most about the work—then carve out time to do more of it. Even if it’s behind the scenes (like strategic brainstorming or quarterly client reviews), injecting that spark back into your role helps prevent burnout. Make a quick list of “things I swore I’d never do” when you started. Check whether you’ve drifted into any of those patterns on inertia—and decide if it’s a learned lesson or a habit worth breaking. Related Do you remember why you started your agency? Why one-size-fits-all advice doesn't work for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m thinking way, way back, way back decades now to why I started my agency. Gini Dietrich: Oooh. Decades, huh? Chip Griffin: And I can’t remember ’cause I’m too old now, so. No, Gini Dietrich: you can too remember. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the honest answer is that I started my first agency was because I was unemployed. And it was better to describe myself as a consultant than unemployed. Yeah. Sure. And then than accidentally started accumulating business. Yeah. But I, but I do think it, it is a helpful exercise for us to go back and, and think about why we started the businesses or, or maybe not, in some cases, like mine, because I was unemployed, is not the greatest explanation. So you know more why did I decide to, to, to build it into an actual business. Gini Dietrich: Why? To keep going. Yeah. I think that’s good, especially as we’re, we’re thinking about starting out the new year and remind ourselves, you know, of the reasons that we started this. Some of us do it because we’re, we’re unemployed. Some of us did it because we found a better, we, we think we had a better way of doing things. Some of us did it because we have a problem with authority. Some of us did it ’cause we’d make terrible employees. I mean, there are lots of different reasons, but I think reaching back into our archives in our brains and thinking about why we did it or why we, I think that you’re right, why we continue to do it is a, is a really good exercise. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, and, and I’ve said over and over again over the years that, that I think too many agencies operate on inertia, as opposed to any kind of a, a fundamental strategy. And so, you know, it’s very easy to say as, as I’m sure many people ask you as they do me, well, what’s the, what’s my next step? Here’s where my agency is now, what, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business. So trying to think back to those early days and what motivated you to start the business. Evaluate it because it, that may have changed, right? You, you may have started it because it served a particular need in the moment, and maybe it’s different today, but thinking about that and thinking about what you really want from the business is usually a better way to come up with strategic decisions than it is to say, well, what do other agencies like mine do when they get to this stage of growth or to this challenge? It’s, you really need to to match it up because otherwise, what’s the point of taking on all of that risk and stress of being a business owner? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, a really good example of that is I really thought I wanted to build a great big agency with hundreds of employees and, and clients around the globe and all of the, all of the things. And as I started to grow and we got to about 30 ish, 33, 32 people, I realized that’s not what I wanna do. Right. It was not enjoyable. I had built a company that I was not thriving in, that I didn’t enjoy leading. You know, I was dealing mostly with HR issues and not doing the work. And so the, the Great Recession did afford me the opportunity, unfortunately and fortunately to kind of take a step back and, and think about what kind of business do I want to have? And what kind of business do I want to lead? And while we’re back up to that same size, it’s a different structured business that allows me to focus in on the things that I do best and do the things that I enjoy versus HR ’cause that is not something I enjoy at all. Chip Griffin: I, I think I’ve yet to meet an owner who likes, enjoys doing HR or accounting or those sorts of things. Not fun. There are some who do it well. But don’t enjoy it. But I, I don’t think I’ve found any that actually enjoy doing it. So, but, but I think that, you know, as you think back to those early days and you think about what motivated you, it can often help you to figure out, you know, what is, what is that spark that you need in the business for you to either continue enjoying it for a longer period of time or bring back some of that, that joy that you had in those early days. Because I know a lot of agency owners these days are, are frustrated and, you know, trying to figure out how to change things for the better. And I think part of the way you inform yourself of that is by thinking back to those early motivations and figuring out how you can inject more of that into your business today. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s really important to do that. And I think there, you know, for me personally, I get really passionate and enjoy my job when I’m learning and doing new things. So artificial intelligence, of course, has been a great big thing for me because I’ve really enjoyed learning it and understanding it and implementing it into my business and then taking it to clients. You know, last month we launched the PESO operating system, AI edition, where the AI prompts you instead of you prompting it. So it will say, what are your business objectives? What are you trying to achieve? What are your audiences? What are your messaging? And then it builds a PESO program for you that’s fully integrated versus you saying I need you to act like a marketing director who can, who understands PESO and can build this and this. It’s that. So I like, those are the kinds of things that really get me excited. And building those kinds of things gets me excited and motivated. So it’s, it’s easy because I understand that about myself. It drives my team crazy ’cause they’re like, oh, she’s got something new. Or my, their favorite thing is, I had an idea. And they’re like, oh no, no, not again. But that’s what keeps me, yeah, that’s what keeps me motivated. So finding a way to understand what brings you joy in the business, I think is incredibly important. So that without exhausting your team, of course, but doing it in a way that keeps you motivated and, and not burned out. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One of the things that always used to, to drive my teams nuts was I would say, you know, over the weekend I was playing with this new thing. And, and you could just see the looks on their faces and they’re like, oh, this is a lot more work for me now. Gini Dietrich: This is gonna be fun. Yep. Chip Griffin: This is, yep. Yep. They, they never seemed to appreciate it the way that I had hoped they would when I came to them. Correct. With these, these brilliant brainstorms of mine. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I, and I think as, as you know, founders of agencies, most of us come in with some sort of that. Idea that, that we want to be creative or strategic or those kinds of things. And as we end up in more of a management role, we have less and less opportunities to do it. So I, I think that, that rather than giving up on that dream, we need to figure out how we can sprinkle enough of that in there to keep ourselves motivated. We can’t give up the, the management piece. We can’t give up the business development piece. Many of us would like to. But the, the reality is that, unless you’ve built a fairly large agency, you just don’t have the ability to pull yourself out of that, as a solo owner. But it doesn’t mean that you have to give up on those things entirely. You can carve out a piece of time to work on that, and if you are structuring your role in such a way that you’re enjoying what you’re doing, it also means that you’re frankly less likely to be doing the, the, the bad things that founders of businesses can do, which is micromanagement and tinkering with things that you don’t really belong in because you, because you’re not occupying yourself with the things that really motivate you. And instead, you’re continuing to try to do every aspect of the business. And that’s where you start to, to run into team morale problems quite often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned over the years is that, yes, I can do the work, and yes, I can probably do it pretty well, but is it really something that I should be focused on? And if not, is it something that I can pay an expert to do because in the long run, it’ll cost me less money, less time, less resources, all of the things. And I know as small agency owners, it’s really hard to say, gosh, I’m gonna have to spend $2000 or $3,000 a month on an expert. When in fact it might save you, you know, 15 or 20 grand on the backend. So I think you have to think about these things as investments in your business and investments in your time so that you can focus on the things that, that you are great at and the things that make you the happiest and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And if, if that happens to be being creative and strategic, then, then you can, you shouldn’t be doing it day to day in all likelihood for clients. Sure. But you should find ways to do it either as part of, you know, quarterly or annual client reviews. Or internal brainstorming sessions that you’re engaging in. There’s a lot of things you can do behind the scenes to be useful and, and to, to exercise those muscles in a way that that gives you satisfaction. But doesn’t put you on the front lines so that you’re, you know, now the, the one that the, the client decides they’re gonna call every time they’ve got an issue. Because that, that ends up eating up a lot of your time in a way that probably you’re not going to enjoy. So sometimes it’s doing things behind the scenes that gets you the, the most value, or doing annual in person with the client. But they understand it’s special that you’re here, this is not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is not something they can or should expect every week. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I, I know I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but we do quarterly planning with our clients. We do a quarterly look back, and then we, you know, say, okay, based on metrics and data and all that and your priorities, here’s what we’re suggesting for quarter two or in the next quarter. And that has afforded many opportunities. A, for me to, to work in my where I’m, where I’m strong, but it also almost always gets us more money. So when you’re, when agency owners are like, oh, should I do a cost of living raise every year? Should I increase by 10 or 15% every year? That kind of goes away because you are getting new projects every quarter based on the the plan and the strategic strategy and creativity that you’re providing to the clients every quarter, because they’re like, oh gosh, yeah, we should actually do that. And some, and sometimes they’ll say, we don’t have extra budget. Can we move some things around? Which is okay, but most of the time they’ll say, you know, we, we have a little extra budget. Let’s focus on doing that. We have to launch a new website. Here’s some extra budget for that. We have to do a series of webinars to maintain our CEUs. Let’s here’s a little extra budget for that. So there are things and opportunities for you to, for lack of a better term, term upsell when you’re doing these quarterly meetings versus waiting for the annual. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and so, you know, finding a way to, to inject yourself in those things is a valuable exercise. Absolutely. From that, look back to the early days. But the other thing that that can be helpful in looking back to your early days of your agency is, you know, what helps drive your early success? Because a lot of times when we’re trying to find solutions to our current growth issues, we can find clues in some of those early days and mm-hmm. A lot of that, you know, in the early days of, of most agencies, it may be that low hanging fruit from personal networks and things like that. But there are usually other patterns that you might be able to see there that might help you to understand what are, what are the basics that you need to go back to? How do you, how do you employ some of those rather than, than focusing on, you know, all of the fancy new things that you see, you know, some, you know, genius podcast hosts talking about as far as how to grow an agency and instead say, Hey, this is what worked for me. Yep. Because you may find something that works again today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we say this to clients all the time, but going back to the basics. It works. And it works for you too, so absolutely you should think about those kinds of things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, you didn’t get here by accident. Well, maybe you got, maybe it’s a little bit of an accident sometimes that happens. Maybe, yeah. Some of it. But, if you’ve had any longevity at all, even a few years of longevity as an agency owner, there are patterns that you can find usually that started in those early days. That you can lean into for understanding and rather than trying to do something wild and different, focus on the things that you know, you’ve proved can work for your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. One of the things, if I were to dig back into the archives, one of the things that worked extremely well for us is I had developed relationships with people who did business development at the large agencies, and what I found is that if they had an RFP or a current client or a prospect come in and say, we only have a quarter of a million dollars to spend. They’re not even gonna look at that. And so they started just referring that business to us, which is how I grew the business. Mm-hmm. So if I think about that now, how could we replicate that kind of, you know, pipeline development? It was extremely effective. And I, I gift that to all the listeners too. Like there are larger agencies in all of your cities that they have a certain threshold, and if any something comes in below that, they are happy to refer business. So there is, there is one way for you to start thinking about how am I going to, you know, keep myself motivated? How am I gonna keep my pipeline full? How am I gonna keep cash coming in? That’s one of the things that you can think about. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and thinking those things through. I mean, sometimes it’s not a one for one where you did exactly the same way you did it originally, but you take that nugget of an idea. And you know, things like, finding other people who can refer you business that’s not quite a fit for, for them, but might be for you. It’s a good reminder to be out there and having conversations with your peers. With people even that you might perceive sometimes as competitors, because there are often opportunities. In the work that I do with agencies, it’s not uncommon for some of the other consultants in the space to refer clients to me that are a better fit for my background and the kinds of agencies that I work with and vice versa. Because you know, we all have our specialties. And as an agency you have your specialties, so it is very common for many agencies to have grown this way. So certainly something to be looking at today, particularly if you’re struggling to find that new business in 2026. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think I really love the advice of thinking back to how you got to where you are and some of the things that you did, and going back to basics a little bit, because those are the things that are going to continue to work. And to your point, maybe tweak a little bit to make a more, be more effective in ’26. Chip Griffin: I mean, it also puts you in the right mindset, I think, because if you’re thinking back to those early stages, that tends to be when many agencies have the most growth, when things are most exciting. And so if you can try to bring back even a sprinkling of that, that can be really helpful. Particularly when times are tougher, or you’re looking for the inspiration to take things to the next level or whatever challenge you may be facing today, those lessons can be extremely valuable and also motivating at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I used to, I used to get mad at companies that would hire big PR firms for like brand awareness and, you know, sending news releases and they didn’t get any coverage. They didn’t get any results. And I would get, I would get angry and I would call the company and be like, you’re so stupid. I would never do that today. But I had such a, I was just so naive and passionate about what we were doing, that it didn’t bother me to call and be like, we can do this significantly better for you. And in some cases they laughed and hung up on me. And in some cases, like we became agency of record. Like we took AOR away from Fleischman Hillard one year from a big, big company with a big, big company. And it was because I made a phone call where I was like, I can’t believe that you’re spending this kind of money and getting these kinds, these lackluster results. They were like, all right, let’s listen. I don’t think I would do that today, but it worked. Chip Griffin: Right. But, thinking back to those things can help you do two things. One is to think some of the positive things that you can do or the affirmative steps, right. That you can take. But the, but sometimes looking back to, to how you got started can also be reminders not to do certain things. Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure. Chip Griffin: So, particularly if you’ve started an agency and maybe you worked at an agency previously when you started, you probably had this laundry list of things. I would never do these things as an agency. And I, I think back to my first agency and some of the agencies that I had worked with previously, you know, did a lot of what I felt was nickel and diming of you in terms of back in the day charging you for faxes and photocopies. Sure. Yes. And all sorts of little expenses. And so, you know, I was committed back then to making sure that my invoices were always clean and simple and fixed, and I just worked in the cost of all of these things. Into my total cost of doing business so that I never had to aggravate a client. Fast forward to today. If I found myself doing that, I, by looking back, I would say, wait a minute. Let me think about that. Am I, am I being true to what my vision was of the business? And if not, is that because I’ve actually learned something and it does make sense to do what I thought was wrong back then. Because I mean, you can learn and grow. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sure. Or have you just fallen into the trap because you walked around and you saw other people doing it. So you said, well, I’m gonna start charging for faxes too. And if you’re charging for faxes in 2026, by the way, Gini Dietrich: we have a problem, but Chip Griffin: we have a huge problem because, what the heck are you using that fax machine for? Let alone that you’re charging for it. And by the way, where did you find a fax machine? Because I haven’t seen a fax machine in person in a really long time, except maybe like at the back of a doctor’s office. The, you know, Gini Dietrich: the bank and the doctor’s office. Yeah, I think that’s it. Chip Griffin: Well, I haven’t, I don’t, I kind, I haven’t been inside a bank in a long time, but Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: everything’s, everything’s electronic now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. There’s no need for that. Chip Griffin: But yeah, think, think back to those, those motivations that you may have had that rather than I want to do this, it was, I never want to be the kind of agency that does this. Because it, it is really so easy to fall down those rabbit holes over time without even realizing that you’re just, you’re doing the same things that, that you didn’t ever want to see when you started your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s so easy to sit on social media, and you’ll get served ads from experts who say this is the way that you should do things. And in some cases it might work. And in some cases you might be like, there’s no way. And I think it’s really easy to listen to somebody and say, yeah, but we went from $3 million in debt to making $3 million a day, like, you know, these wild claims. And then you kind of get sucked into that. I think if you’re really true to who you are and what kind of agency you want to build, that’s going to enable you to say, this just doesn’t feel right to me. I’m not, I’m just gonna… great if he’s really making $3 million a day, I need to just bypass this one. Chip Griffin: Because you need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is, is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days. And by understanding the, the early months or years of your agency, the more that you can inform some of the decisions that you’re making going forward one way or the other. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Think about it. It’s a good way to start ’26. Chip Griffin: Nice positive way. We, we managed to get through an episode here without beating up on our listeners. We didn’t start the year on a negative note, did we? We started positive. We did. Think about, we think about what has worked for you previously. Yes. And do more of that. Do more. So we will do more of this on a future episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. But in the meantime, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In Season 4, Episode 6 'Back to Vegas' of the Changing Earth Audio Drama, Erika and Vince race toward Las Vegas to rescue trapped loved ones, while TJ restructures D'lores and isolates Gini for her safety amid growing threats. Virgis returns to the homesteads only to face Cassidy's departure for Texas, stealing their chance at togetherness. Every moment becomes a battle to protect what matters most in a world that devours time. This episode draws from Sara F. Hathaway's Changing Earth novel series—explore the full books like 'Battle for the South' and shop exclusive merch at ChangingEarthSeries.com. Learn more about performers and music at https://www.authorsarafhathaway.com/season-4 #PostApocalyptic #AudioDrama Become a subscriber and get one-week commercial free early access at https://www.authorsarafhathaway.com/supportBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/prepper-broadcasting-network--3295097/support.BECOME A SUPPORTER FOR AD FREE PODCASTS, EARLY ACCESS & TONS OF MEMBERS ONLY CONTENT!Get Prepared with Our Incredible Sponsors! Survival Bags, kits, gear www.limatangosurvival.comThe Prepper's Medical Handbook Build Your Medical Cache – Welcome PBN FamilyThe All In One Disaster Relief Device! www.hydronamis.comJoin the Prepper Broadcasting Network for expert insights on #Survival, #Prepping, #SelfReliance, #OffGridLiving, #Homesteading, #Homestead building, #SelfSufficiency, #Permaculture, #OffGrid solutions, and #SHTF preparedness. With diverse hosts and shows, get practical tips to thrive independently – subscribe now!

That Solo Life, Episode 329: The New Alphabet of PR - From AEO to PESO Episode Summary In this highly anticipated episode of That Solo Life, hosts Karen Swim, APR and Michelle Kane welcome industry legend Gini Dietrich, founder of Spin Sucks and creator of the PESO Model. Together, they dive deep into the current state of public relations and what lies ahead for 2026. The conversation tackles the pervasive topic of AI, moving beyond simple prompting to discuss how PR pros can teach clients to integrate AI into their workflows strategically. Gini addresses recent online debates regarding the evolution of the PESO model, emphasizing the importance of critical thinking in our industry. The trio also explores the concept of "Visibility Engineering"—how to ensure your brand shows up in AI-generated search answers through robust owned and earned media strategies. Finally, they remind listeners that despite technological advances, human storytelling remains the heart of the profession. Episode Highlights [01:52] Gini discusses the current landscape of PR and the ubiquity of AI. [02:28] Addressing the critics: Has the PESO model really not been updated in a decade? Gini sets the record straight. [05:54] The opportunity for PR pros in 2026: Teaching clients how to incorporate AI into systems and workflows, not just how to prompt. [09:20] The new SEO: Whether you call it AEO, GEO, or AIO, the goal is showing up in AI search answers. [11:42] How AI search actually rewards genuine thought leadership rather than keyword stuffing. [13:33] Visibility Engineering: How to engineer the robots to ensure your content answers the contextual questions your audience is asking. [15:41] Why storytelling and engaging hearts and minds will never go out of style (featuring a nod to A Christmas Story). About Gini Dietrich Gini Dietrich is the founder, CEO, and author of Spin Sucks, host of the Spin Sucks podcast, and author of Spin Sucks (the book). She is the creator of the PESO Model© and has crafted a certification for it in collaboration with USC Annenberg. She has run and grown an agency for the past 19 years. She is co-author of Marketing in the Round, co-host of Inside PR, and co-host of The Agency Leadership podcast. She also holds "legend" status on Peloton. Related Episodes & Additional Information Visit Spin Sucks for resources on the PESO Model and professional development. Connect with Gini on LinkedIn for daily insights. Forbes Article: Why AEO Is The Future Of SEO And How To Master It Episode 292: Utilizing Zero Click Conent for Better Engagement Host & Show Info That Solo Life is a podcast created for public relations, communication, and marketing professionals who work as independent and small practitioners. Hosted by Karen Swim, APR, founder of Words For Hire and President of Solo PR, and Michelle Kane, Principal of Voice Matters, the show delivers expert insights, encouragement, and advice for solo PR pros navigating today's dynamic professional landscape. Enjoyed this episode? Don't keep it to yourself! If you found value in today's discussion, please subscribe and share this episode with a fellow PR pro. Helping us spread the word ensures we can continue bringing you legendary guests and actionable advice. Listen now on your favorite podcast platform

Brenda J and Karen B welcome Gini Larsen back to the show for an honest and compassionate conversation around one of the most difficult topics for abuse and trauma survivors—forgiveness. Gini holds a meaningful place in both Brenda and Karen's lives, arranging the Mending the Soul group where Brenda and Karen first met. Gini Larsen is a certified Christian counselor with over 25 years of counseling experience. She holds a master's degree from Arizona State University's College of Social Work and has extensive trauma-focused training, integrating professional clinical insight with Christian therapy and pastoral counseling. Brenda and Karen vulnerably share how hard forgiveness can be for survivors, especially when abusers remain unrepentant and emotions like anger and grief feel overwhelming. Gini offers a healthy, Christ-centered approach to forgiveness—one that does not minimize harm, but points to God for healing. She explains how forgiveness is ultimately about glorifying God and allowing Him to restore and heal the survivor's heart. This is a heartfelt and hope-filled conversation you won't want to miss. www.biblicalhopecounseling.org https://hangingontohope.org

In this episode, we look at what happens when artificial intelligence is put in charge of real-world systems, starting with an experiment in automated pricing and what it reveals about incentives, scarcity, and control. We turn to Denmark's decision to shut down its national postal service, using it to examine the decline of physical mail, environmental tradeoffs, and why government monopolies struggle to compete with private delivery. We highlight the week's “foolishness,” including the rise of competitive spreadsheet championships, before turning to a broader discussion about inequality. We examine IQ distributions, bell curves, and why inequality is often confused with poverty, exploring the limits of measures like the Gini coefficient, the difference between snapshot and lifetime earnings, and the role of incentives, envy, and value creation. We close by contrasting equality of opportunity with equality of outcome and asking what societies should actually care about when assessing fairness and prosperity. 00:00 Introduction and Overview 00:27 AI Runs a Vending Machine at the Wall Street Journal 01:52 When AI Meets Communism and Price Controls 03:52 Why AI Isn't Replacing Humans Anytime Soon 04:32 Denmark Shuts Down Its Postal Service 06:11 Is Physical Mail Environmentally Absurd? 07:39 Why the Postal Service Can't Compete 11:43 The Foolishness of the Week: Excel World Championships 13:25 Are Spreadsheets More Important Than Football? 15:08 Main Topic Setup: Should We Care About Inequality? 16:13 IQ, Bell Curves, and Random Distributions 23:05 Why Inequality Is Not the Same as Poverty 25:36 The Gini Coefficient and Its Limits 28:57 Sports, Superstars, and Value Creation 38:00 Taxes, Transfers, and the Illusion of Inequality 41:57 Lifetime Earnings vs Snapshot Inequality 45:14 Equality of Opportunity vs Equality of Outcome 49:30 Envy, Incentives, and Human Motivation 53:38 Closing Thoughts on Inequality and Society Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, we look at what happens when artificial intelligence is put in charge of real-world systems, starting with an experiment in automated pricing and what it reveals about incentives, scarcity, and control. We turn to Denmark's decision to shut down its national postal service, using it to examine the decline of physical mail, environmental tradeoffs, and why government monopolies struggle to compete with private delivery. We highlight the week's “foolishness,” including the rise of competitive spreadsheet championships, before turning to a broader discussion about inequality. We examine IQ distributions, bell curves, and why inequality is often confused with poverty, exploring the limits of measures like the Gini coefficient, the difference between snapshot and lifetime earnings, and the role of incentives, envy, and value creation. We close by contrasting equality of opportunity with equality of outcome and asking what societies should actually care about when assessing fairness and prosperity. 00:00 Introduction and Overview 00:27 AI Runs a Vending Machine at the Wall Street Journal 01:52 When AI Meets Communism and Price Controls 03:52 Why AI Isn't Replacing Humans Anytime Soon 04:32 Denmark Shuts Down Its Postal Service 06:11 Is Physical Mail Environmentally Absurd? 07:39 Why the Postal Service Can't Compete 11:43 The Foolishness of the Week: Excel World Championships 13:25 Are Spreadsheets More Important Than Football? 15:08 Main Topic Setup: Should We Care About Inequality? 16:13 IQ, Bell Curves, and Random Distributions 23:05 Why Inequality Is Not the Same as Poverty 25:36 The Gini Coefficient and Its Limits 28:57 Sports, Superstars, and Value Creation 38:00 Taxes, Transfers, and the Illusion of Inequality 41:57 Lifetime Earnings vs Snapshot Inequality 45:14 Equality of Opportunity vs Equality of Outcome 49:30 Envy, Incentives, and Human Motivation 53:38 Closing Thoughts on Inequality and Society Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How does China's economic model work? Political economist Ben Norton explains the ideas behind Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, discussing China's socialist market economy, historical development, reform process, poverty reduction, industrial policy, and more. VIDEO with charts here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E89qUXTX-k Topics 0:00 Introduction 1:07 China has world's largest economy 3:01 China's economic development 3:54 Poverty reduction 6:56 Rising incomes 7:42 Life expectancy 8:57 Mortality rates 9:34 Reform and Opening Up 10:16 To get rich is glorious? 11:35 Deng Xiaoping's ideology 13:54 Primary stage of socialism 14:28 Chinese capitalists 15:54 Industrialization & urbanization 16:55 Birdcage economy (Chen Yun) 18:17 State ownership 19:40 State-owned enterprises (SOEs) 20:49 Grasp the large, let go of the small 22:22 Public property 23:16 SOE assets 24:14 Provincial & local governments 25:51 Golden shares in tech companies 26:54 Huawei, biggest worker-owned company 27:17 Rural cooperatives 29:09 Democracy in China? 31:40 Foreign investment in China 33:49 Global value chain 34:34 Foreign direct investment (FDI) 35:48 Industrial policy evolution 38:22 New quality productive forces 39:23 China's green energy revolution 40:24 World's manufacturing superpower 41:04 US deindustrialization & financialization 43:22 US bubble economy 44:37 China popped real estate bubble 46:50 Inequality & uneven development 48:31 Eras of the PRC 49:01 Common prosperity in New Era 49:34 Gini coefficient 50:26 Labor income vs capital income 51:48 Poverty alleviation 52:17 Wages of Chinese workers 52:44 Labor unions in China 55:19 USA funds anti-China labor groups 57:02 Marco Rubio takes over NED 57:32 Delivery workers 58:30 996 system is banned 59:23 Working hours in China 1:00:25 Imperialism & division of labor 1:03:51 AI & new cold war 1:04:45 Silicon Valley model: monopoly 1:05:43 Market competition in China 1:07:44 China opposes private monopolies 1:08:10 State planning 1:09:05 Cold War Two