Podcasts about spin sucks

In this episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich resets what shared and paid are actually for inside the PESO Model® operating system. She covers why these two areas feel like chaos, how to define “proven signals” before you spend, and how shared and paid work together to create consistent, compounding visibility in a world shaped by communities, creators, and AI-driven discovery.

The PESO Model has been guiding smart communications strategies for over a decade, but the tactical landscape underneath it keeps shifting. In the latest evolution, Gini and her team have completely revamped the PESO Model Certification to address how AI and large language models are fundamentally changing visibility in 2026. In this episode, Chip interviews Gini about the newly updated certification and what’s changed in how organizations should think about paid, earned, shared, and owned media. The conversation centers on “visibility engineering”—the intersection of owned and earned media where LLMs are scraping information and making decisions about who appears in AI-generated answers. Gini explains why owned media remains the foundation (without content on your own properties, there’s nothing to demonstrate to journalists, creators, or LLMs what you’re about), but the recommended path has shifted from owned-then-earned-or-shared to a more deliberate owned-then-earned-then-shared-then-paid sequence. This evolution reflects how AI systems verify information by comparing what’s on your website against what credible third parties say about you. They also tackle the persistent “X is dead” headlines that plague the industry—whether it’s websites, PR, or press releases. Chip and Gini push back hard on the notion that websites are becoming irrelevant, pointing out that your owned content hub becomes more valuable in an AI-driven world, not less. It’s your source of truth, the fuel for custom AI assistants, and the foundation that persists even as social platforms come and go. The conversation covers practical questions about implementing PESO in smaller agencies, whether you need to be full-service to deliver on all four pillars, and how the certification meets communicators at different experience levels—from college students to seasoned professionals. If you’ve been treating PESO as just four columns of tactics rather than an operating system for communications, this episode clarifies what you’re missing. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Owned is still the foundation because without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different.” Chip Griffin: “In a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing.” Gini Dietrich: “We are in a zero click world. And so how does that affect the work that we’re doing? It’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up no matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information.” Chip Griffin: “Having your content in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos because that is the fuel for that tool.” Turn ideas into action Audit where your owned content actually lives. Open a spreadsheet and list every place you’ve published content over the past two years—your website, Medium, Substack, LinkedIn articles, guest posts, anywhere. Mark which platforms you own versus rent. This awareness exercise reveals how vulnerable your content strategy is to platform changes and algorithm shifts. Map one content piece through all four PESO pillars. Take your next webinar, speaking engagement, or major thought leadership piece and plan the full PESO path before you execute: owned content on your site summarizing key insights, pitching earned media opportunities based on those insights, creating social distribution that doesn’t just promote but educates, and identifying where paid amplification makes strategic sense. This forces you to think about PESO as an integrated operating system rather than disconnected tactics. Dive deeper into the PESO Model. Visit spinsucks.com/peso-model-certification to learn more about the newly updated certification program. Whether you’re looking to formalize your team’s approach to integrated communications or simply understand how the model has evolved for the AI era, the certification provides a structured path from foundational concepts through practical implementation. Resources For more on the PESO model, visit the Spin Sucks website Related Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? How PR agencies can use the PESO Model to improve client retention How to allocate your client's PESO budget Wake up or get left behind: AI is forcing your hand View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’ve heard that you might be involved with this thing, I think it’s called the PESO Model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, maybe. Chip Griffin: You may you use that, right? That’s, yeah. Just you found it and you said this should, this is something we should use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Something I just found and thought we should use it. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah, no, in all fairness, you are in fact the inventor of the PESO model, which is widely used throughout the PR and communications world, and it has been evolving with the times as we all should be. And so I, I think we have some, some new news that you’ve been sharing around the PESO model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, according to a couple of people on the internet, it has not evolved at all because they are not able to use Google or AI to say, has the PESO model evolved since 2014? Perhaps. It has. And you know, all of last year I spent a good amount of time, especially on the blog and the Spin Sucks podcast, talking about visibility engineering, which is where owned and earned media meet because that’s where the LLMs are getting their information, right. We’re finding more and more that they’re scrubbing websites and then they’re comparing that to earned media, to the things that media not, and not just traditional media, newsletters, podcasts, things like that, that they’re saying about the brand and looking to see if they match. And if they do, then they’re appearing. You’re, you start to appear in AI answers. So I spent a good amount of time last year exploring that and understanding that and, you know, using the blog and the podcast as my sandbox to learn more about it and teach the industry about it and understand what was happening. As part of that, I said, okay, it’s time to do a big refresh of the certification. Because we did the certification in 2020 and then we did a small update to it in 2024. And this one is a completely revamped certification that shows you how exactly AI is… how exactly you’re showing up in AI answers and doing that via the PESO model. So we start with owned, we go to earned, then we use shared and paid. There’s integration and measurement and it brings it all together. So I’m actually, I said to my team, not to brag, but this is really good. It’s a really, really good course. And we hired, last March I hired a chief learning officer who has helped me build it into something that’s more effective for an adult learner. So it’s really specific to, you know, you can get the work done while you’re also a working professional. So she has done a really nice job of bringing that element into it. It has AI prompts so that you can use the PESO AI that we built to help you do the work. And it’s, it’s pretty good. I’m, I’m really proud of it. I’m really proud of the work we did. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, it really is something that, that fuels most communication thinking in smart organizations today, whether that’s agency side, client side, that sort of thing. Now it’s not always as well understood it should be. Some people just throw the term around. A little bit willy-nilly. Yes. You know, without really thinking it through. Of course there are other people who claim that it’s also their invention, which is, you know, but we’re not gonna go down that path ’cause we’re staying positive today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. We’re gonna stay positive. Positive, yes. Chip Griffin: But I think to, you know, to me, one of the things that, when I look at the PESO model, I think is, you know, it’s great because it is an overall set of principles and framework that is effectively timeless when it comes to communications. And then it’s the implementation side of it. The tactical side of it. That’s the piece that needs to evolve. The, I mean, the four letters are still the same. It’s not like you, right? Yes. The evolution has not been to change PESO to something else. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: It, it’s really just saying. Okay. All of these different components, the paid, earned, shared, and owned have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so how we implement it needs to adapt to that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s very much, I mean, when we did it in 2020, it was very much like how, how you’re using content marketing really to inform your contributed content through earned and then sharing that link through, through social and then putting some money behind it to boost it. And that was, you know, that was six years ago, and it worked back then, right? It’s still, social still worked from the perspective that you could post a link and people would follow that path back to your website. Well, people don’t do that anymore. You know, we are in a zero click world. And so how do, how does that affect the work that we’re doing? So, you’re right, the paid, earned, shared, and owned doesn’t change. That model stays the same. It’s the pieces on top that, that have evolved. And so now it’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up. No matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information, we show up no matter what. And it’s really, that’s what it’s really about is how do you engineer that visibility? How do you make sure that you’re showing up in the right places at the right time to the right people? Chip Griffin: And so if you’re, if you’re thinking about leaning into the PESO model for your communications needs. You know, where should you be starting today? Is it owned? Is it social? Is it, you know, how, has it changed? If at all from that standpoint over the last decade? Gini Dietrich: Owned is still the foundation because without anything, without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different. So that’s the foundation. There’s nothing do than to just create that distribution layer through shared, and there’s certainly nothing to amplify through paid. So that’s always been the foundation. There are of course exceptions if you’re selling widgets or your, you have an Amazon store or something like that, then I would probably start with paid, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the most part, most organizations need to start with owned. And we used to say that then you could go to earned or shared. Depending on your goals. Now we’re saying actually the best path for engineering that visibility is owned, then earned because you need that credibility, so the LLMs can cite that information. Then you build your distribution layer, and then you amplify your work. Chip Griffin: So I, think what I’m hearing you say is that websites are not dead despite all of these, you know, headlines that you like to see people’s, Gini Dietrich: No, they are not. Chip Griffin: The, the rise of LLM, websites are dead. You’re not even gonna need a website in five years. Gini Dietrich: No, we still need a website because otherwise the LLMs don’t have anywhere to get the information about you. Humans don’t have any, I mean, we still go to websites. We might not go, you know, a direct click like we used to, but we still go to websites to get information. So yeah, you still need a website. I hate the, such and such is dead. The PR, there’s one that PR is dead right now. Like PR is not dead. Come on. You can’t do, you’re not going to show up in AI answers if without PR. So PR is not dead. Chip Griffin: No, the X is dead has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to, I mean, that, that really is something that, that took off during the start of the social media era. Yeah. Whether it was the press release is dead. This is dead, whatever. I mean, and, you know. Just, it’s not true. I mean, we, you know, I always used to say back 20 years ago, you know, people used to say that radio was dead. Radio is still very much around, and radio is still around in certain forms. I mean, when I’m driving around, I listen to radio. Yes. Is it terrestrial radio? No, it’s satellite radio. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But guess what? It’s still radio. Gini Dietrich: It’s still radio. Yep. Chip Griffin: Right. Podcasts are effectively radio. Transmitted in a different fashion. Yep. And so, you know, I think that the people need to understand that the underlying technology may evolve, some of the tools will evolve, but Gini Dietrich: absolutely Chip Griffin: the, principles and concepts will largely remain the same. Doesn’t mean that everything stays. Yeah, certainly some things, you know, do go away, or become so small that they’re irrelevant, but you know, I think we need to be careful about those things. And, to me, with a website, to me, the other value is it still is a great place to be the central repository of all your information as all of these things change around you. I mean, if, for the last 10 or 15 years you’ve been using your website as your content hub and housing at least your most important, most valuable stuff there, it doesn’t matter whether medium or substack comes or goes. It doesn’t matter whether people move from X to LinkedIn to whatever. Yep. You still have a source of truth for your own information, which becomes even more valuable in the world of AI and LLMs. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I mean, we, have preached for years, we’ve all preached for years that you should not build an audience or content on rented land because to exactly your point, the rented land goes away. X has become something that nobody wants to hang out on. We’ve moved to LinkedIn. Lots of people have moved to Substack. So, those pieces will change. So don’t, I think that theory, philosophy stays the same. Because you have, you are building something that you own, that you control, and allows you to control that narrative and be, tell the story the way you want to, and then you rent that out to other places versus building on rented land where it will go away. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that there are a lot of avenues that are opening up to organizations with, you know, particularly those that have more content already, but also by building it up. And I think in particular of the AI assistant I built on the SAGA website. Mm-hmm. Yep. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos and that kind of stuff because that is the fuel for that tool. Yep. And, and if I was trying to do it based off of, see what you can find that I’ve posted on LinkedIn or Twitter or things over the years, and it’s just not gonna work. And so having that in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I was talking to a client last week and she said that one of the goals for 2026 is they have 17 different brands. So each brand has its own chief executive. And what she has, what she wants, the comms team for each of those brands to do is build an AI agent that helps them with that CEO’s voice. And they can’t do that without content. They can’t do it without the executives’ speeches, webinars, podcasts, appearances, media relations, like they have to have all of that content, blog posts that they’ve written or articles that they’ve written for the website. They have to have that to be able to feed that and train the AI. So without it, they don’t have any, to your point, fuel that will allow them to do that. So 100% that is accurate. Chip Griffin: So as, we’re thinking about implementing PESO properly, so not just, I heard the term, it sounds cool. I made a list of four columns of each, and I just started just chucking stuff in there. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I mean, how do I go about learning it the right way? And I’m, you know, we’re not turning this into a QVC Gini Dietrich: Are you throwing me a softball? Chip Griffin: you know, show here. But at the same time, I, think it is valuable for people to understand what is out there in a more formal sense, to understand and, adopt the process for their own organization. Gini Dietrich: I mean, obviously the PESO model certification is the place to get the information because one of the, one of the things we see is exactly what you said, that people create their four columns and they say, okay, well we’ve got some content and we’re doing some media relations, and we’re throwing that on social. And all right, we’ll put some, budget behind some of our organic social, and we’ve got the PESO model. And that’s, not the PESO model, that’s a list of tactics. So what the certification does is it walks you through exactly. There’s this, a scientific layer to it. It walks you through that scientific layer that allows you to embed an operating system, that let that foundation of your work so that as things evolve and the industry changes and your business goals change, you’re able to change the tactics on top of it. We also hear, well, gosh, my, you know, my clients can’t afford to do a full PESO program, so what should I do? And in fact, they can afford it. You’re just thinking about it as this huge, overwhelming thing. And so the certification walks you through if you’re a solopreneur or a small agency, that walks you through if you’re a midsize, and it walks you through if you’re a large corporation or an enterprise organization. And I will say for small organizations, which are most of our listeners. It’s really about how do you take one piece of content and repurpose it. So let’s say that you do a webinar. How do you take that webinar and create some content around it that, from what the webinar was, not promoting it, not trying to get registrations, but saying, okay, here’s what we learned in the webinar. So we’re gonna create some how-to or thoughtful content for that. And then we’re gonna take pieces of the webinar and we’re gonna break it down for social posts. And then yeah, we’re gonna put some money behind some of it. And we’re also gonna go to some of our trade media and we’re gonna say, Hey, listen, our subject matter expert or our chief executive just did this webinar and here’s what they talked about. Are you interested in some contributed content? So it allows you to do that in a really interesting, effective way without you having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or have a large team. You can do it without a lot of resources. I mean I built the PESO model framework for my agency and we were not, at the time, a big agency. Mm-hmm. So that’s what it was built for, is to make it so that we could do more with less and do more with less resources and, less time and less people and less budget and all the things. So it is definitely, definitely feasible. So that’s what it teaches you how to do. Chip Griffin: So I, you know, I think one of the other concerns that, some particularly smaller agencies have when it comes to PESO is not just the, clients and their budget, but, their own capabilities and, you know, so is it realistic for a small agency to be able to, you know, deliver? We, we talk all the time about being careful about being a full service agency. Yep. But to, implement PESO, do you have to be a full service agency? Gini Dietrich: You do not. That’s the other thing that the certification walks you through is if you have the capability yourself in house. Or you yourself can do it. Then here’s how you do it. If you are building it for an external team or an external agency, here’s how you do it. If the client has a team that can do it, here’s what you’re going to do to build the strategy and the creative brief, and then you’ll hand it off. But here’s what is expected for. Here’s, what’s expected of you to deliver, and here’s what the expectation is for the output from the client team or the agency team, whatever happens to be. So it has those three paths depending on where you are. So yeah, that’s a really good point. It doesn’t the, certification expects you to, build the plan and the strategy, and then based on where you are, it meets you where you are. So if, you have a team that you can execute or that you can delegate it to, great. If your client has a team you can delegate it to great. But it meets you where you are so that you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to be the strategist, you don’t have to be the influencer, but you do have to build the plan and the strategic path to be able to help the team get there. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, let’s talk through some of the logistics around the certification. I mean, how long does it take to get certified? Is this, you know, I, do a weekend course and I’m done. Is it an ongoing process? Is it, you know, is it the equivalent of a master’s degree? I gonna spend two years with, you know, countless hours? What exactly does it look like? Gini Dietrich: It’s built to be done in eight weeks, but I will tell you that most working professionals do not do it that fast. I would say most working professionals do it between 10 and 12. Each module is, so you have the intro earned or owned, earned, shared, paid, integration, measurement, and then the operating system and how to embed that. So it’s eight modules and each module has between 6 and 12 lessons, and each lesson is like 8 to 10 minutes. So, you know, you’re looking at an hour to an hour and a half of learning of content and then you have the exercises for each lesson. So I would venture to guess it’s, you know, if you use the AI prompts effectively, that are in there, it’s between two to five hours a week probably. Chip Griffin: And, who is the certification best for? Is it someone who’s got, you know, prior experience, is this, Hey, I’m fresh outta college and I want to have this so I can use it to, you know, improve my, my job prospects. You know, what, kind of experience are they expected to have, or knowledge are they expected to have coming in? Gini Dietrich: It’s, we built it for any level of expertise. The interesting thing about it, of course, if you have more experience, it’s easier for you to grasp the concepts and implement it quickly. But we also use the certification in a hundred plus universities and the kids, the students go through it. So we find that they… It’s different for them because they have to use a fake business where you can use your own business or you can use your client’s business, right? They have to kind of create the business as they go. But it’s really fun to see what kinds of things come out of that. So it’s built for every level of expertise. It’s a different way of thinking about communications. So it’s not like you have to have 20 years of experience or only a year of experience. It’s because it’s teaching you something new. Chip Griffin: Gotcha. And is the, are the certifications only at the individual level? Are there agency certification programs? What exists in that frame? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we’ve, that, that’s a great question that we evolved too. So it used to be, it was individual based and now we’ve built it so that you can put a team through it, you can put the whole agency through it. The certification itself goes with the individual because it comes through Syracuse University. So it is, so if you have a team member that you wanna put through it, if they leave the certification goes with them. So you cannot say that you do the PESO model anymore if they leave. So we always recommend, I mean, you know, I’m an agency owner, so I’d love to see the agency owner themselves go through it, but I also know that that’s not always doable. So, but if you want the certification to stay with your agency, that’s the way to do it. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. And it, you know, I guess as, we’re winding up here, you know, where do you see the, PESO model headed in, the years, you know, in front of us? I would assume it will continue to evolve. Does your crystal ball tell you anything about, you know, what that evolution will look like? Gini Dietrich: It will continue to evolve. I have not looked into my crystal ball yet because I’ve been so heads down deep into developing the content for this that I haven’t been able to forward think yet, but I’m very much looking forward to being able to go back to my regular job and, start to think about the future, but I’m not there yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, guess that’s fair. I guess asking you for the, next version before this version is even fully out in the wild may, Gini Dietrich: I’ve literally been like blinders on, heads down, creating all of this content. Chip Griffin: I had to try at least, you know, see if I could get the inside a scoop on where the industry is headed so that I can… Gini Dietrich: Ask me in a month. Chip Griffin: I can get there before everybody else, or at least before everybody else accept you. Alright. If someone, wants to learn more about the PESO model or the certification or any of that kind of stuff, where’s, the best place for them to go for that? Gini Dietrich: I feel like we just did an interview. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that was not the intent going, but it made the most sense to me. And I, you know, me, I, follow the thread wherever it feels like it goes. That’s fair. Some of these were questions I actually didn’t know the answer to, so I thought I would ask them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Alright. spinsucks.com. There’s a PESO model certification page. I think it’s actually PESO-model-certification. Chip Griffin: You love your hyphens on that website. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know why it’s that way. That’s just what they do. Chip Griffin: Oh, well. Gini Dietrich: Ask our web firm. Chip Griffin: I’m, sure people can end up finding it. Gini Dietrich: PESO model certification. Spin sucks.com. Chip Griffin: There you go. Excellent. Well, I, think this was good information and I think we, you know, we do talk a lot about the importance of, you know, agencies continuing to adapt. Particularly in, in this age of AI. And, if we are standing still, you know, we are gonna lose our jobs to AI and the other enhancements and improvements that are out there. I think this is one of many ways that you can, make sure that you are not getting left behind and, so, certainly something that most agencies should be at the very least learning more about, if not actually directly implementing within their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, and, like I said, it has AI baked in, so if you’re still on the fence about AI, it’s a good way to dip your toes in the water. Chip Griffin: And if you’re still on the fence on AI, why? Gini Dietrich: It’s so much fun! Chip Griffin: It really is. It can be a time suck at times, but it’s, yeah. It’s also fun and, frankly useful. I mean, I think that’s the… But anyway, that when this is not an AI show, this is a PESO show. Gini Dietrich: Right. So, right, right. Chip Griffin: We, will come back and bash you on AI again in the future. Not, you, but you the listener. You the listener. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Alright. With that we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

That Solo Life, Episode 329: The New Alphabet of PR - From AEO to PESO Episode Summary In this highly anticipated episode of That Solo Life, hosts Karen Swim, APR and Michelle Kane welcome industry legend Gini Dietrich, founder of Spin Sucks and creator of the PESO Model. Together, they dive deep into the current state of public relations and what lies ahead for 2026. The conversation tackles the pervasive topic of AI, moving beyond simple prompting to discuss how PR pros can teach clients to integrate AI into their workflows strategically. Gini addresses recent online debates regarding the evolution of the PESO model, emphasizing the importance of critical thinking in our industry. The trio also explores the concept of "Visibility Engineering"—how to ensure your brand shows up in AI-generated search answers through robust owned and earned media strategies. Finally, they remind listeners that despite technological advances, human storytelling remains the heart of the profession. Episode Highlights [01:52] Gini discusses the current landscape of PR and the ubiquity of AI. [02:28] Addressing the critics: Has the PESO model really not been updated in a decade? Gini sets the record straight. [05:54] The opportunity for PR pros in 2026: Teaching clients how to incorporate AI into systems and workflows, not just how to prompt. [09:20] The new SEO: Whether you call it AEO, GEO, or AIO, the goal is showing up in AI search answers. [11:42] How AI search actually rewards genuine thought leadership rather than keyword stuffing. [13:33] Visibility Engineering: How to engineer the robots to ensure your content answers the contextual questions your audience is asking. [15:41] Why storytelling and engaging hearts and minds will never go out of style (featuring a nod to A Christmas Story). About Gini Dietrich Gini Dietrich is the founder, CEO, and author of Spin Sucks, host of the Spin Sucks podcast, and author of Spin Sucks (the book). She is the creator of the PESO Model© and has crafted a certification for it in collaboration with USC Annenberg. She has run and grown an agency for the past 19 years. She is co-author of Marketing in the Round, co-host of Inside PR, and co-host of The Agency Leadership podcast. She also holds "legend" status on Peloton. Related Episodes & Additional Information Visit Spin Sucks for resources on the PESO Model and professional development. Connect with Gini on LinkedIn for daily insights. Forbes Article: Why AEO Is The Future Of SEO And How To Master It Episode 292: Utilizing Zero Click Conent for Better Engagement Host & Show Info That Solo Life is a podcast created for public relations, communication, and marketing professionals who work as independent and small practitioners. Hosted by Karen Swim, APR, founder of Words For Hire and President of Solo PR, and Michelle Kane, Principal of Voice Matters, the show delivers expert insights, encouragement, and advice for solo PR pros navigating today's dynamic professional landscape. Enjoyed this episode? Don't keep it to yourself! If you found value in today's discussion, please subscribe and share this episode with a fellow PR pro. Helping us spread the word ensures we can continue bringing you legendary guests and actionable advice. Listen now on your favorite podcast platform

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the impact of AI on small agencies, focusing on the high expectations and possible disappointments it poses. They reference a recent article from The Atlantic, which highlights a study showing that AI can sometimes decrease efficiency. They caution against overhauling business models based solely on AI’s current capabilities, stressing that while AI can assist with tasks and improve efficiency, it cannot fully replace human judgment and creativity. The conversation extends to the challenges of integrating AI without sacrificing the development of new talent and ensuring that the evolving role of AI adds value rather than causing disruption. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “It’s not about AI being either the panacea or evil, it’s that we may be adjusting our models too much too quickly.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is great for some things but it cannot replace human beings yet.” Chip Griffin: “It is incredibly likely that all of the providers of AI are going to start ratcheting up the prices. And so what looks today like a huge cost savings likely may not be in just a few short years.” Gini Dietrich: “How do we bring new college graduates into the workforce, and what are we teaching them?” Resources Just How Bad Would an AI Bubble Be? (The Atlantic) Related Should AI upend your agency business model today? Using AI the right way for agency biz dev CWC 10: Neville Hobson on AI and machine learning in PR View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think, you know, I think AI is gonna solve all of my problems. We’ve said this before, but I, I really, I’m gonna change my whole business model around it. Gini Dietrich: I think you should fire everybody. You could fire me as your co-host. AI can just do it for you. Chip Griffin: You know, I mean, I wonder if the AI would talk back less. Gini Dietrich: Probably, although if I program it, I’ll program it for you so that it, it talks back a sufficient amount. Chip Griffin: Excellent, excellent. Just, just what I need. Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome. Chip Griffin: Oh, at least, you know, maybe, maybe the AI wouldn’t yawn at me like you did just before we started recording, so Gini Dietrich: I shouldn’t even be tired either. I got nine hours of sleep last night. I don’t know what my problem is, Chip Griffin: I assume you were expressing your boredom with me. Gini Dietrich: No. Prior to the start of the show. No. Chip Griffin: I mean, usually it takes a couple minutes for most of our listeners to get that bored with me. So Gini Dietrich: no, I’m not bored with you. Chip Griffin: Okay. Gini Dietrich: Just sleepy. Chip Griffin: Just sleepy. Well, I’m with you on that. Alright. But we are gonna talk about AI and in particular, there was a good article in the Atlantic recently, that is consistent with some of the things that I’ve been saying and talking with clients and, and I think it’s, it’s helpful to think about. And that is whether or not there is an AI bubble and what it means. And it’s not, in my view, it’s not so much about a macro AI bubble, sort of like we think about, you know, the, the internet bubble in the early 2000s and, and I think there is certainly some of that, but that’s really more about investing in some of the businesses and infrastructure and that kind of thing. But I think for small agencies, there is the potential for an AI bubble that comes about because we all get too focused on either what kind of threat AI is or what kind of opportunity AI is. And we’ve said before on this, we’ve talked about AI a lot, so I, I was a little reluctant to come back to it, but I think that thinking about it in in these terms may be helpful. Because it’s not, it’s not about AI being either the panacea or evil, it’s that we may be adjusting our models too much too quickly because some of these things may not quite be there. And in particular, the Atlantic had a great example and it was from a study that was done with some software developers. And the software developers were given AI to help them do their jobs. And the purpose of the study was to try to figure out was it a 20% efficiency improvement, 40%, 60%, what was it? And ultimately what they discovered was it was actually, it decreased their efficiency. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Because part of the challenge with AI, and I, I’m sure many of us have seen this, is when it works well, God, it works great. It just, and, and we’re impressed and we’re, we sit there and say, that’s amazing. But we, we don’t factor in the times it doesn’t work and the times we have to argue with it and fight. Right? And so if, if we’re go, and I, I mean I do this a lot with, I mean, maybe it shows something about me that I argue with the computer. I was trying out Gamma recently, which is a, a service that lets you build PowerPoint decks effectively. And I threw something in, just kind of randomly grabbed an outline, threw it in, and it actually did a really nice job of creating the first thing that I sent to it. And I’m like, that’s great. I’m like, okay, well can you make these modifications to it? And it just wouldn’t do it. It just, it, it kept, you know, I, I said, can we put, you know, my logo at the bottom of the slide, you know, in the footer. And so it puts it in, it’s like a quarter of the screen. I’m like, no, no. I said, can you make it smaller, Gini Dietrich: same size, just move it. Chip Griffin: And it’s like, great, that’s a great idea. Let’s make it smaller. And it gives it to me the exact same size. Oh. And it makes it completely unusable because obviously you don’t really want your company logo to take up a quarter of the slide. That’s just dumb. So I, I think we need to, to think about all of the effort that we’re putting into AI and factor that in when we’re thinking about our own efficiencies, because I’m afraid that some people may be changing their models too much, changing their pricing too much. Because they’re looking at the successful implementation of AI and not factoring in all of the challenges along the way. At least as it exists in September of 2025. Gini Dietrich: Gartner has their hype cycle, right? And so it looks at things from that perspective. And, you know, we get really excited. We’re human beings. We get really excited. There’s something. Coming. There’s like all this like, oh, that’s scary. We’re not gonna do anything. Then we get really excited about it. Then it dips down and then it comes back up before it’s like scalable and, and something that we use. The internet was one, email was one, social media was another, those kinds of things. Right. Well, in the hype cycle, AI is now in the trough of disappointment. So it’s in that section of the cycle where it’s like, oh. Maybe this isn’t gonna work so well. And you have companies like Salesforce who just laid off 30,000 people. Because they think AI is going to replace those human beings. And what they’re going to find in the trough of disappointment is that that’s not the case. And I think that we have to think about that. As you know, we’re certainly, I’m not laying off 30,000 people. You’re not laying off 30,000 people. I would imagine most of our listeners are not laying off 30,000 people. But you have to think about it from that kind of perspective of AI is great for some things. It cannot replace human beings yet. So when you think about how you’re using it, those are the kinds of things you have to consider. One of the things I say to my team all the time, I, I’ll get something from a team member and I’ll be like, did you use AI for this? And my favorite is when they’re like, oh, just to outline. I’m like, really? ’cause on the third page, the sixth bullet point, it’s definitely AI. And I know that because you didn’t, it’s, it’s talking to you, right? And you didn’t edit it. So it can’t replace people yet. And I think though, that’s what I continue to tell my team is you can absolutely use it, but you have to use your brain and you have to edit the work that you’re getting because as a first draft, it’s crap. It’s not good. So we have to like take all of this with a grain of salt and make sure that we’re using it effectively. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think that, you know, part of the challenge is if, if we say, okay, well because of this we can now, you know, churn out social or blog posts or graphics or whatever that much faster and all that and, we’re building our models, we’re building our staffing models around it. We’re building our pricing models around it. It becomes a problem. Yeah. Yep. When we realize that it’s not quite as efficient, it’s still good. It’s still helpful. We still ought to be using it and some of this stuff will continue to get better. Most of it will continue to get better, and so at some point it will get there. It’s sort of like during that, that first wave of the internet bubble in the early 2000s, there were plenty of businesses that came out, got a lot of attention, and then failed miserably only to see 10 or 15 years later an almost identical business come up and blossom because now it was time for it. The technology was there, the market was there, and so, so some of these things, it’s not that they’re not a good idea, it’s just that they’re not quite fully baked yet. And as, as particularly as small businesses, we need to be careful about how heavily we lean into some of these things without understanding what the risk of that is and, and understanding whether it is truly everything that we believe it is in our, in our happiest moment. And, and, you know, with the troughs of disappointment and the, the peak, I forget what the, what the peak is called, but you know, the ups and downs, we’re all gonna feel those. But, but when we’re building business models and strategies for our agencies, we need to think about that in a little bit more of a level line as opposed to to riding the waves or the dips too much because that’s where we start to make bad decisions. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think we, you see this on the, on the web all the time, right? You have people who jump onto the next wave, hoping that they’re gonna get that upswing of popularity, success, whatever it happens to be before it goes down. And then you have, you see ’em jump on the next one and the next one and the next one. First of all, that’s a crappy way to live. Like, ugh. The constant like yin and yang and ups and downs and no agency owner should live like that. But secondly, you have to really think about what are we strategically trying to do? And I will tell you, I, I mean, I’m sure it’s clear, but I love AI. I love it. I think it has made me more efficient, it’s made me more productive. You know what it’s done more than anything? It’s allowed me to stop procrastinating. Because when I have something really challenging, I tend, in the past, I tend to procrastinate it, put it off. It’s a big project. It’s, I know it’s gonna take me time to get started, and so I, I put it off. I put it off. I put it off. I’m also highly deadline driven, so if you tell me it’s due in 12 hours, it’ll get done. If you tell me it’s due in four weeks. I’ll do it the last 12 hours. Right. So that’s just how I, my personality. So what it has done is it has allowed me to say, okay, this is a huge project. I’m, I’m gonna take 15 minutes just to outline the steps so that I can get it done more effectively. I don’t procrastinate anymore because that allows me to at least get it into my workflow and get things accomplished. That’s where it’s made me most, most efficient. So I think we have to think about those kinds of things, like how are we bringing it into our workflow to make us more productive and make us more efficient, but not replace the thinking or the creativity. Chip Griffin: Right. And I think the other thing that we need to keep in mind is that in uses like that, where it’s acting as our assistant, I think has a lot more utility, a lot more staying power. Mm-hmm. And will just continue to improve as, as we learn how to use the technology more effectively. And as the technology continues to evolve, I think the bigger challenge comes for agencies when they see this as something that can help them do things at scale. Yes. Right. So it’s not, it’s not assisting an individual, making them more effective, efficient, et cetera. But instead it is using it, as some companies are, to replace large numbers of human beings. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think that’s, it’s a risk for multiple reasons. One is the, you know, whether or not it is truly as good as you think it is and, and can do things without that level of supervision, intervention, et cetera, that we’re doing when we’re using it as an assistant. But we also need to keep in mind that as we all get sucked into this, it is incredibly likely, if not certain, that all of the providers of AI are going to start ratcheting up the prices. Sure. And so what looks today like a huge cost savings likely may not be. In just a few short years. And we’ve seen this before, we saw this in the early days of internet ads, for example, search ads. It used to be that you could, you could buy ads on, on Google search super cheap. Now, not so much. And it didn’t take all that long before it got to a place where it was so costly that it was starting to, to become much more similar to other advertising media. Right. And so you, you need to keep in mind that it may not ever get fully to the price of, you know, the, the same productivity of a full-time equivalent, cost the same in the end, but it’s gonna be a lot more than it is today. So if, if you see it today as an 80% savings, it may only be a 40% savings when all is said and done. And is that still okay? Would you still have uprooted your whole business model for that or not? And I can’t answer that for you, right? But I think you need to think those things through, before you invest too heavily. What’s that? Gini Dietrich: It depends. Chip Griffin: It depends. Everything depends. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. Like it’s just, you know what, there’s been a conversation both in a private Facebook group I’m in and in the Spin Sucks community of late, of how people are not hiring new college graduates anymore because it kind of does replace them. Like it does replace the research, the media list development, the initial pitches, things like that that you would have, you know, an intern or a young prof, a brand spanking new young professional do. So how do we, how do we continue that? But then how do we hire young professionals? ’cause we can’t not hire a brand new college graduate. Right. How do we bring them into the workforce and what are we, how are we teaching them? Are we teaching them to become AI prompt engineers? Are we teaching them to become better editors? Like what are we teaching them to do? Because AI can do a lot of that really basic stuff that an intern would would normally do. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and I think that that, that becomes then a, an even bigger challenge for small agencies because small agencies have always struggled with the idea, do we hire seasoned professionals who are more expensive? Or do we hire more junior people who we can use more cost effectively? And this does tend to skew it more in, in terms of let’s, you know, let’s hire those more seasoned, more expensive people and we’ll rely on the AI for all the lower level stuff. But that may be a challenging business model to truly make work, in part because now you’ve got senior people who then have to, to manage in a much more hands-on way with the AI. A lot of that more basic stuff. And I would argue that it might be more worth looking at can you use the AI to improve the, the quality and output of more junior people, right? If, if you’re, if they’ve, if the junior people have an assistant, could they accelerate their own growth more quickly? And I don’t have the answer to whether that’s true or not, but it’s something that I would be interested in looking at if I were trying to scale up a small business as opposed to saying, okay, all the grunt work will be done by AI and we’ll hire just senior people, because that’s a very difficult business model to price correctly. Gini Dietrich: I also think it’s dangerous. I think it’s dangerous to hire as, as a senior professional, I think it’s dangerous to hire only, you know, seasoned professionals because you now you’re losing out on, you know, creativity, youth, you know, like all of the, the sort of like rosy colored glasses kinds of things that help a business grow. I think that’s, I think that’s really dangerous as well. You need, you need a balance. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And you wanna develop future leaders for your own. Yep. Business. You know, obviously it, you know, I don’t necessarily buy into the notion that we need to do it for the good of the PR and marketing community and, you know, we gotta give them opportunities because otherwise we won’t have them in the future. It, it really does need to be more selfish for your own business. But you can develop them within your own business so that you know, over the next, you know, four to six years, they become that seasoned professional who learns your way of doing things as an agency and can contribute in a more meaningful way to your own business. Gini Dietrich: I think it’s, I, like I said, I think it’s dangerous to, to rely on that. And to come full circle, it’s dangerous to rely on AI to replace human beings because that’s just, while it’s tempting, it’s just not where we are yet. Chip Griffin: No, I mean, look, I think there are, there are certain things that can be replaced by AI. So I’m not, I’m not sticking my head in the sand and saying, don’t, you know, don’t reduce any headcount. I, I think for most small agencies, probably AI is not gonna enable you to reduce headcount. It’s, it’s difficult for me to, you know, all the agencies that I’ve advised and looked at over the years, it’s hard to think of very many who could actually save even one FTE on the backs of what AI can do for them today. Yep, yep. It certainly, it certainly can make them more efficient. It certainly can open additional doors, could free up some time. But I, I have a very difficult time seeing any where it’s a one for one replacement. But there are certainly other industries, other kinds of business where it absolutely can help to reduce the headcount, but maybe not completely replace all of the headcount in a particular function area. Gini Dietrich: Well, to come back to the Atlantic article that you mentioned at the start, you know, it showed that it wasn’t, and you would think, you would think that AI would be really good at a developer’s job. At creating, you know, being able to do that because it’s not, there’s no creativity to it, right? And so you would think it would be really great at that. And it found that it wasn’t. It found that they were actually spending more time directing the AI and getting the information, getting the right kinds of things out of the AI that they needed than to just do it themselves. So you, we have to be really careful here and, and like I said, I’m a huge, huge fan. I love it. But it’s also not replacing any humans from my perspective. Chip Griffin: And look, I mean it ultimately, even though the, the models are very good at doing the coding for programmers, it’s also, it’s a double-edged sword because for an op-ed or something, 80% is probably good enough. For code? 80% isn’t good enough. You gotta get to a hundred percent because any bugs in there are gonna be a problem. Gini Dietrich: Yes, you do. Chip Griffin: And, and as someone who has written computer code before, I can tell you that, you know, even 98% ain’t all that good because you still need that other 2% and you’ll be chasing that, you know forever if you can’t figure out exactly where it is. So. You know, there are, there is a difference in the kinds of work that it’s doing. So in some ways it was a good test of it because it’s an area where it’s strong. On the other hand, I would also argue it may not be the best because there is very little margin for error in coding because you still have to get to a, a fixed result at the end, from the logic that you’ve put into place. Whereas in a written piece or a graphics piece, that’s good enough. Yeah. You’re, that crosses the threshold. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. 80% is good enough. That’s exactly right. Chip Griffin: And look, I, I mean, I think if we get to 80% good enough on this show, that’s probably, that’s probably sufficient. I mean, Gini Dietrich: I need to buy one of those sound machines so I can do like clapping and things for you. Yeah, I need that. Chip Griffin: There you go. So, I mean, let’s face it, some weeks for us, 50% is probably good enough. So, yep. Before, before we drop down below that 50% mark, though, I think we’ll, we’ll draw this episode to a conclusion. This has been the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to manage situations where clients want to terminate contracts early. Gini emphasizes the importance of having a strong contract with clear termination clauses, which can serve as leverage in negotiations. They share experiences and strategies for recovering outstanding invoices, including offering concessions and being flexible with payment arrangements. The duo also cautions against aggressive tactics like public shaming for non-payment and stresses the importance of maintaining professionalism to avoid burning bridges. They conclude with practical advice on managing accounts receivable and resolving disputes amicably. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you look at a contract as a tool rather than a rigid roadmap, I think that’s the most helpful way to think of legal agreements in the agency client context.” Gini Dietrich: “Overall, you don’t want to burn the bridge with clients.” Chip Griffin: “What you really have to do is figure out how can you get the best possible outcome at this point?” Gini Dietrich: “Keep in mind that these are people who are going to refer business to you.” Related Getting agency-client contracts done right How to protect yourself from an unexpected client breakup How to do client collections right and get paid faster 6 reasons why your agency needs client contracts The basics of agency-client contracts from a business perspective View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, we have one of your favorite topics today, but it’s one that, that we haven’t visited in a while, so it’s, it’s probably worth revisiting. Okay. And, and, and that is, how do you handle it when you have a client who wants to end their contract early? Gini Dietrich: Well. As we all know, I am a stickler for the details when it comes to this, and we have very specific language in our contracts. Our attorney helped me create something beautiful that is a 90 day termination clause. Almost never does somebody sign 90 days. They use, it’s usually a negotiation point, right? It’s, we get it to 30 or 60, whatever. I use it for negotiation. Sometimes the client signs the full 90 day contract. I have had a situation where a client called me at the end of the month and said, we are terminating the contract as of today. And I said, great. There are two outstanding invoices, and by the way, you have a 90 day termination clause. And they came back and said, and I said, but if you’ll pay the the outstanding invoices by the 15th of the month, then I will happily waive the 90 day termination clause because I know you’re, it’s cashflow and I know you’re having a tough time right now. They came back and said, no, that I’m not being a good partner. Chip Griffin: So to clarify, they don’t want to pay for services already rendered? Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: That seems unreasonable under any circumstances. Gini Dietrich: I agree. Chip Griffin: So I think that from my observations of having had these conversations with you now for what, seven or eight years now on this show, you’re being particularly reasonable. Especially for me. Yes. That’s what I’m saying. You, you personally are being particularly reasonable Uhhuh, because usually you are much more hardcore than I am Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: On these things. Yes. I think that’s fair to say it is. But what you’ve described is. Is something that I would typically offer to a client. Settle your debts and we can just part ways amicably. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And you are also, I think, the only agency owner I know of who has ever sued a client. I’m sure there are others out there, but I don’t know them personally. Gini Dietrich: It’s the principal. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yes. We, we know that you, that you thrive on making the point. Gini Dietrich: I do. Chip Griffin: So, so it’s Gini Dietrich: Fair is fair. Chip Griffin: So you’re clearly. Going soft. Gini Dietrich: I’m, I’ve, I’m getting older. I’m, I’m getting older, and I understand that this is not worth pursuing. I would like our past due invoices to be paid, and I will happily waive the 90 day clause. If, however, you don’t pay us by the middle of the month, then I’m not waiving the clause on the contract you signed. Chip Griffin: Right. So let’s, I mean, let’s extrapolate or not extrapolate, let’s, let’s step back and look at this at a higher level rather than your particular individual case. We can use that as an example. Sure. But I think that, that there are a few key points that come out of this that could help other owners. And, and I think the first one is the way that you are using the contract as a tool to get leverage to get a solution that you’re happy with, right? It’s not that you’re abiding by the contract. Right down to the last crossed T and the last dotted I, you are willing to make concessions, right? But by having a strong contract, it gives you the leverage in that negotiation to be able to trade something, the unpaid invoices for the lengthy notification period. Or not lengthy, but the the 90 day notification period. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Yeah. I think that’s right. And I think having that leverage helps And you, you have, you have to find ways to be able to have that leverage. Like, you know, web forms won’t deliver a website until you’ve paid their last invoice. Same thing. Like what do some things, if a client’s not gonna give you any notice and they did not give us any notice, they called us on the last day of the month. If they’re not going to give you any notice, then what is your leverage to be able to get the invoices paid, in a timely manner? And you know, if they’re saying, well, we can’t pay for 60 or 90 days, or they’re saying We’re not gonna pay it all. There’s things that you need to have. So I think your point about having a contract that has that language in it that they have signed and agreed to, gives you some of that leverage. Withholding work product gives you some leverage. So there are some things that you can do, but you have to have that all set up. You know, you always talk about sort of the prenup. What happens if you get divorced from a client, right? What are the things that are gonna protect you in that, that situation? Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think if you, if you look at a contract as a tool rather than a rigid roadmap, I, I think that’s, that’s the most helpful way to think of, of legal agreements, at least in the agency client context. There are obviously other places where it is that rigid roadmap and Sure. And you’re not gonna do anything about it. I mean, you try having a negotiation with, I don’t know, your car lender, you know, it’s probably not gonna happen. They’re probably just gonna sit there and say, you know, you signed the 27 page agreement. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Pay up. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So, so you know, but in, in an agency client relationship, the, the contract is that tool to help resolve the challenge in some sort of a reasonable way. And I, and I do think that it is particularly unreasonable when clients call at the end of, of a time period and say, we’re ending immediately. I mean, that’s just – Regardless of what your contract says, that’s just it. It’s bad behavior. Yep. And, and I don’t appreciate seeing it. And it tells me a lot about either the individual or the organization or sometimes both. Yep. And, and so certainly not something you ever wanna see. Having a contract can help you find a resolution to that. Although, I will say at the same time, when you have people who engage in that kind of behavior, it sometimes ends up being a lost cause candidly. Because if, if someone is willing to do that, then they may have no issue at all just leaving invoices unpaid, and then your only recourse is to sue, which you can do. Sure. You’ve proved that. Yes. And, and yet most of the time it will cost you more time and money than you actually recover. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. Yes, I have. I have learned, I have grown. I have, and sometimes there are situations where I’m okay spending the money to prove my point. Chip Griffin: Well, and, and sometimes, and there are other options. You can sometimes turn, turn these over to collections groups who will take a percentage of whatever they are able to recover, you know, that. And they, they just turn into the obnoxious collections agent and just Yep, keep calling. You know, that’s not something I’ve ever pursued, but I know some, some owners who have gone down that route, with mixed success. So. You know that there are things that you can do, but generally speaking, your best bet in my experience is to try to work something out in as Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: As friendly a way as possible. Yeah. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But it’s, it’s also a good reminder to, to stay on top of your accounts receivable. In your case, two months is, is not terrible. There are plenty of cases where I’ve worked with agencies who have much larger debts owed to them by clients. Yes. And, and what I always tell folks is, you know, whatever you have for outstanding invoices, you have to assume you’ll never get paid. Because there’s just, you know, particularly once they cancel, now you’ve got no leverage left, right? Because what are you gonna, the only thing you have at that point is a lawsuit. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: That’s not particularly helpful Gini Dietrich: right Chip Griffin: Now I have seen a lot of suggestions in places like candidly, the Spin Sucks community, where people have suggested. Some creative, Gini Dietrich: very creative, Chip Griffin: but I think very impudent Gini Dietrich: correct Chip Griffin: ideas. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: For how you deal with deadbeat clients. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: For example, I think one suggestion I saw, I forget whether this was Spin Sucks or somewhere else, was basically taking out a billboard in a community attacking a company for not paying. Others have suggested putting them on blast and just posting all over social media like you see people do when they’re upset about some treatment by the airline or something like that. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: These are bad ideas folks. Gini Dietrich: They’re bad ideas. Actually, I just saw somebody put a company on, on blast on social media because they weren’t paying their bills, and I was like, well, that’s one approach. Chip Griffin: I, I mean, the thing is you have to look at this through the lens of the recipient. I mean, you’re, you’re escalating dramatically with them once you go public, right? With something like that. And so now you know, you think you’re putting pressure on them, but the exact opposite may be true. You may be stiffening their spine to say, You know, I didn’t like working with these people anyway, and if they’re gonna behave like this, right? Because keep in mind we sit there and, and, and we look at a client who is canceling with little or no notice, not paying bills. We look at them as the bad guy. But oftentimes if you talk to them, that’s not how they see it. Sure. And, and so, and they may think in their mind, well, geez, this agency didn’t live up to their promises. They didn’t do what they could, or they don’t understand and appreciate our financial troubles that, you know, and, and we just, we don’t have it. We can’t pay it. It is what it is. And, and so, so they don’t think that, and so you going on the, the attack publicly right now just makes them think. Even better of themselves and worse of you and, and takes you further away from resolution rather than closer. I mean, certainly in some cases it might work, but I, but I would argue more often than not, it’s probably not going to. But the other thing you have to think of is how are other people perceiving this? Right. Prospective clients. Yeah. Who might be inclined to work with you. Yeah. If they’re looking at this, they’re saying, geez, you know, if it doesn’t go right with them, this is how they treat their clients? Yeah. I don’t, I don’t know that I wanna work with them. Yeah. So, so you gotta be really careful with these kinds of, of tactics because scorched earth usually burns both sides. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. And I, I mean, there’s something to be said for not burning a bridge, you know, and sure, certainly there, there may be instances here and there over the years that you, it’s okay to burn the bridge, but overall you don’t wanna burn the bridge. And, you know, I, I think that that’s the case. As I’ve grown and matured, that’s one of the things that I’ve learned is, yeah, could I prove, could I sue them and prove my point? Sure, absolutely. Is it worth it? Probably not. Chip Griffin: No. And, and so, so what you really have to do is figure out, you know, how, how can you get the best possible outcome at this point? And so, you know, in your case, trying to trade the outstanding invoices, you know, for waiving the notice period is, you know, probably the, the first and most obvious thing that you can do. But I would also say in these cases, try to collect as much as you can, however you can. Yeah. So, so sometimes what you might do is you might say, well if, if you can pay one of the invoices by this date and the other by a later date, you know, that will then, so ’cause that sometimes can encourage that first payment to come in or break it up. Mm-hmm. You know, break it up into four monthly installments even though it’s two months worth of there. There’s a lot of different creative things that you can do so that you are mitigating your exposure and, and collecting at least some of it. And I think one of the mistakes that, that I’ve seen people make in circumstances like these is it becomes all or nothing. Yeah. And so the, the focus is purely on getting the total amount owed. And, and I would strongly encourage you to try to, if, if you certainly start there, but if you can’t get that right away, then try to figure out how can you, you know, start carving out at least some of that past debt for two reasons. One is it does reduce how much you’re out at the end of the day. But the second is it starts to, to build the expectation in the client that they will continue to pay up, right? And so, so getting that first payment across often will help you get to the later ones. Maybe not to all of them, but at least to subsequent ones. And so, you know, you want to think creatively about this and, and not cut off your nose to spite your face because you just, you wanted it all. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I, I would say to that end too, that many of us have, interest clauses in our contracts. I never hold clients to that either. Like if I, if I can split it up into four payments or, you know, five payments, whatever it happens to be and get and not charge interest for them being late, like, but I get the money eventually. I that, I’m fine with that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean the, to me, the interest clause is, is really just another lever for you to use. I certainly know agencies who do charge the interest. In some cases I know them, that they, they’ll start it like on day one of being late. I, you know that that’s not. My approach to it. I, I think that, that you, you can lead to clients feeling like they’re being nickled and dimed for things like that. Sure. Yeah. But the other thing frankly is that there is, a fair bit of, of research out there that suggests that things like interest in late fees and all of that actually encourages late payment. Sure. Yeah. Before the be, you know, there was a, I remember there was one particular study of a daycare. And the, the daycare was frustrated that parents kept, you know, showing up after five o’clock or whatever to pick up their kids. I remember the staff had to wait around and so they started instituting a late fee, and rather than fixing it, it actually made it worse. Yes. Because then people started saying, well, okay, I’ll pay the extra 50 bucks. Right. You know, so that I don’t have to show up until like seven. Yes. Yes. And, and so what they, because, so sometimes those kinds of, of penalties actually serve as permission to engage in bad behavior. So, so something to, to keep in mind when you’re using things like that is that, that you may not have the expected consequence of things like that. So you, you wanna think those things through, but I, I encourage you to have the interest fee provision in there because it is something that you can say, it does give you that leverage. You gets paid in 10 days, then we’ll waive it or something like that. Yep. And so you, you, you always want to try to appear, even with the most difficult client, it is in your best interest, no pun intended, to, to appear to be as accommodating and as helpful as possible. Because your goal, when you think about it, is to extract yourself from this relationship with as little damage to your business as possible. That’s right. And generally escalating, and, you know, you know, putting up your fists and sparring is not the way to get there. Gini Dietrich: No, absolutely not. And like I said, if you, if, if you can avoid burning a bridge because you’re right. These cl, these, these are people who are going to refer business to you. And I always say, I always say this about employees. You always remember an employee by the way they left, not with by all the great work that they did while they worked with you. Yep, sure. And if they behave, if they left badly, that’s how you remember them. And it’s the same thing with clients. If you leave the relationship poorly or you leave with a bad taste in their mouth, or you put them on blasts publicly. They’re not going to refer business to you, and they’re going to remember that you treated them badly from their perspective when you left. So I think those are the kinds of things that we have to think about as we, as we deal with clients who don’t follow their agreement that they made with you. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and I, and I do think that it is important to try to, to end relationships in such a way that you leave the door open to future possibilities. Sure. At the same time as you’re seeking to resolve these kinds of issues. I wouldn’t put too much stock in that because the vast majority of clients who have ever left any of my businesses over the years, will say things like, oh, well, we’ll be back when, you know, and, and that may be time certain, it may be when their business turns around, it may be, you know, whatever. The vast majority never come back, and I don’t believe that’s because, you know, my businesses are all lousy and they were just, you know, making stuff up to make me feel good. I, I think in the moment most people actually believe this, but… Things change for them. Life moves on. Sure. And, and yes. And so maybe it just doesn’t feel like a fit later on. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Right. And I don’t blame them for that, but I do, I do encourage owners not to say, well, they said they’ll come back in three or six months, so you know, I’m gonna cut ’em a real sweetheart deal. You wanna be careful about that. Make a decision that assumes that you would still be okay with it if they never come back. I mean, I, I always think that most business decisions. If you, if you look at them through the, the worst case possibility, you’ll make better decisions. And that’s true of, you know, whether it’s resolving something with a client. Pitching new business to a client, selling your agency at some point down the road, always assume that you only get the bare minimum out of it. Yeah. And ask yourself if you are okay with the bare minimum. If you’re only happy with it because there’s some icing on the cake that you think is coming later, then you probably shouldn’t go down that path. Gini Dietrich: No, totally agree with you. It’s, you know, counting your chickens before their hatch. Don’t do that. Don’t ever, ever do that. Chip Griffin: Nope. Nope. Kill a chicken and eat it. Sorry, PETA. Gini Dietrich: On that note, Chip Griffin: I think, I think probably on that note before we go farther off the rails, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Your reputation isn't just what people say anymore—it's what machines decide is true. In this episode of Spin Sucks, Gini Dietrich explains why structured trust is the new currency of reputation—and how AI tools are already encoding your brand. If your data is inconsistent, outdated, or missing, you're invisible (or worse, misrepresented). She covers what structured trust actually means (and why it matters), how machines decide if your brand is credible, the risks of ignoring structured trust, practical steps to build a “source-of-truth” page, use schema markup, and publish citation-ready content, and how to measure if your efforts are working. If AI were asked who you are…would it get the answer right?

On this week's Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich digs into IBM's new CMO Revolution study and what it means for the future of marketing leadership. The report makes one thing clear: the next decade won't belong to the marketers with the biggest budgets. It will belong to the CMOs with operational courage—those willing to dismantle outdated systems and rebuild for an AI-powered marketplace moving at the speed of a microsecond. She shows you how the PESO Model© has evolved into a full marketing operating system, helping CMOs close the execution gap and deliver: Precision, prediction, and protection at scale Integrated, measurable strategies that strengthen first-party data and customer relationships A perpetual growth engine that balances AI speed with human creativity If operational courage is the price of survival, PESO is the playbook.

PR is powering AI visibility—and communicators are more essential than ever. In this episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich breaks down how brand mentions, structured trust signals, and consistent PESO execution are shaping whether your brand shows up in AI-generated answers. The tools may have changed, but the strategy? Still rock solid. You'll walk away with: A more clear understanding of Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) A checklist for improving AI discoverability A smarter way to align your PESO strategy across platforms Hope (yes, really) that your role is more valuable than ever Subscribe, share, and get ready to run your same strategy—at machine scale.

Your job title hasn't changed. But your responsibilities have. In today's episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich breaks down what it means to be a Visibility Engineer—and why communications pros are now at the center of AI-driven brand discovery. You'll learn: Why 95% of AI citations come from non-paid sources (and how to get yours included) How to translate traditional comms skills into strategic AI visibility What new KPIs matter—like citation velocity, AI brand summaries, and misinformation risk How to use the PESO Model to engineer visibility across search, summaries, and smart assistants Plus, we'll share a “day in the life” of a visibility engineer and give you a tactical roadmap to start applying this thinking inside your own org. Join the Spin Sucks Community for deeper discussions: ⁠⁠⁠https://spinsucks.com/spin-sucks-community⁠⁠⁠  Follow Spin Sucks on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram for weekly tips.

On this special edition of PR 360, we're revisiting a standout episode that perfectly captures what we aim to do with the show. It's a March 2024 interview with Gini Dietrich, founder of the influential Spin Sucks blog and author of Spin Sucks: Communication and Reputation Management in the Digital Age. This episode checks all the boxes—it's fun, insightful, and packed with valuable takeaways on thought leadership, the evolution of Spin Sucks from a blog into a movement, and even Gini's take on why Taylor Swift is a brilliant marketer.Key Takeaways:- The Spin Sucks story- Why thought leaders should be bold- Why Gini loves AIEpisode Timeline:2:40 How to come up with podcast ideas4:00 Why is Taylor Swift a great marketer?5:40 How Spin Sucks grew from a blog to a movement7:40 Why ethics is the backbone of Spin Sucks9:50 How to define results with a client11:00 The PESO model13:50 The importance of creating authority and trust14:40 Gini on thought leadership17:40 Gini's thoughts on AIThis episode's guest:· Gini Dietrich on LinkedIn· The Spin Sucks websiteSubscribe and leave a 5-star review:https://pod.link/1496390646Contact Us!• Join the conversation by leaving a comment!• Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Thanks for listening! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

AI doesn't see you if your marketing content is brilliant but disconnected. And if AI doesn't see you, neither do your customers. In this episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich unpacks the discovery crisis—how AI is quietly reshaping the buyer journey, and what it means for brands that haven't integrated their content strategies. Spoiler alert: the old SEO playbook won't cut it. Join the Spin Sucks Community for deeper discussions: ⁠https://spinsucks.com/spin-sucks-community⁠  Follow Spin Sucks on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram for weekly tips.

On this episode of Destination on the Left, I talk with Colleen Senglaub, Digital Account Manager at TAP, for the first installment of a four-part series exploring the PESO Model—a foundational framework for integrated marketing plans in travel, tourism, and hospitality. We dig into the “P” of PESO—Paid Media. Colleen shares her expertise on digital advertising, breaking down today's must-have channels, including Meta (Facebook and Instagram), Google, programmatic, and connected TV campaigns. They also touch on emerging platforms like Pinterest and TikTok, offering fresh ideas for reaching key audiences. What You Will Learn in This Episode: How Colleen develops paid digital marketing plans using the PESO model and why this strategic framework helps destinations choose the right mix of paid, earned, shared, and owned tactics Why goal-setting and understanding your audience are foundational before selecting digital advertising channels and campaign types What considerations go into selecting paid media channels, including Meta (Facebook/Instagram), Google, programmatic connected TV, Pinterest, and TikTok, and why asset type and audience preference play a critical role How audience targeting and campaign automation are evolving (especially on Meta), and why maintaining control over audience selection is more important than ever What retargeting is in digital advertising, how it can be used effectively for tourism marketing, and why monitoring ad frequency matters for guest experience How to approach measurement, including setting the right KPIs, using industry benchmarks, and making ongoing campaign optimizations to ensure campaign success Maximizing Your Travel Marketing Impact with the PESO Model: Paid Media The PESO Model, developed by Spin Sucks founder Gini Dietrich, offers a holistic structure for integrated marketing. Of the four PESO pillars, paid media encompasses any tactic that requires a direct investment to capture attention. As Colleen Senglaub explains, this includes everything from digital campaigns (social ads, Google search, display, programmatic, and connected TV) to traditional placements like billboards and print, along with sponsored content and trade show activations. The key to successful paid media is intentionality. Marketers should analyze both the needs of their destination and the motivations of their target audience, choosing only the channels best equipped to deliver on their specific business goals. Channels to Consider in the Modern Mix Choosing where to focus isn't about following flashy trends—it's about aligning with your destination's unique goals and audiences. As Colleen says, every decision should connect back to core campaign objectives—are you trying to drive web visits, capture leads, or expand your newsletter reach? Who is your ideal traveler, in terms of age, interests, and location? A well-aligned strategy might mean an integrated mix, like for TAP's Baseball Hall of Fame campaign, which blended Meta, Google, TikTok, and CTV, thoughtfully timed to coincide with the launch of a new exhibit and the availability of assets. Emerging Channels and Creative Asset Considerations Don't overlook evolving channels. Pinterest, for example, wields unique influence over women-led travel planning, while TikTok is a powerhouse for reaching Gen Z, who increasingly look to social platforms instead of Google for travel inspiration. But succeeding on new channels requires the right creative approach. TikTok demands fun, vertical, trend-aligned videos, whereas Instagram and Meta perform better with a thoughtful mix of sizes and styles. Marketers should aim to capture assets in multiple formats upfront, future-proofing their campaigns for every channel. Resources: Website: https://travelalliancepartnership.com/ LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleen-senglaub/ LinkedIn Business: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tapintotravel/ We value your thoughts and feedback and would love to hear from you. Leave us a review on your favorite streaming platform to let us know what you want to hear more o​f. Here is a quick tutorial on how to leave us a rating and review on iTunes!

In this episode, Chip and Gini delve into the challenge of agencies being brought in late on client projects. They discuss the common scenario where clients give last-minute requests and share strategies for becoming part of the planning process earlier. Key recommendations include integrating into internal communications, attending more meetings, and maintaining a mindset of curiosity to stay updated. They also cover how to handle situations when timely inclusion isn’t possible, such as negotiating new timelines or additional costs for urgent work. The conversation emphasizes the importance of proactive client communication to prevent unrealistic expectations and to potentially increase scope and revenue. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “We need to find more proactive ways as agencies to get ourselves into the conversation much sooner.” Gini Dietrich: “Nobody wants to be in more meetings, but it actually helps.” Chip Griffin: “We all need to understand that our clients aren’t thinking about us every day in all likelihood.” Gini Dietrich: “You can negotiate some of it to say, listen, we’re happy to help you with this, but we just can’t do it in five days. We can do it in 10.” Related What to do when clients don't get your agency what it needs to succeed Getting the client's perspective on agency relationships How to make agency team meetings more productive View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini today, you know, I think we need to figure out how I can learn what’s going on on this podcast a little bit sooner. I, I feel like I only learned at the very last second what our topics are gonna be, and I just, I need to get plugged in sooner. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Nothing. I I got nothing. You got nothing. We went last week from you having nothing to I got nothing. Chip Griffin: We we’re, it turns out our openings now are just play stump the co-host. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Right. Chip Griffin: So, well how about, how about instead of that, Gini Dietrich: learn how we get plugged in sooner to the discussion that we have as soon as we, just five minutes before we decide to record, but Okay. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, I, and in fairness, this, this is a challenge that a lot of agencies have with their clients where they’re asked to do something at the last possible second. Right. And they then need to try to figure out how to make it work. Yes. Surprise. We’re having a product announcement tomorrow. Oh really? I didn’t even know you were working on a new product, let alone that it was launching tomorrow. These are real world situations. They’re ones I’ve experienced, I’m sure you’ve experienced and just about every listener has experienced Yeah. It is not good. It’s an uncomfortable feeling. No, it’s not good. And you can’t usually just say to the client, yeah, no, sorry, we, we can’t do that on 24 hours notice. I, I mean, you can’t, you can try, but they’re, they’re not, they’re, it’s not gonna go over well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, I would say this is, especially from a pr perspective, this is a really typical thing because for some reason nobody thinks to say, oh gosh, we should have communications in the room. When we’re planning all of this stuff. Instead they say, Hey, by the way, we’re gonna launch a new round of funding next week. Can you get the media relations piece set up? And you’re like, it’s not, I can’t in a week. Oh, and by the way, every board member has to approve the news release before it goes out. In a week? And then it never does. You get it, it never goes out in a week because that’s just not enough time. And so I think it’s a really good conversation to have because we do have to figure out how to become part of the conversation at the beginning instead of at the end. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And it’s, it’s something that came up in the Spin Sucks community recently. And you know, it, it is certainly, I think, It particularly impacts pr. but I, I’ve seen it impact just about every kind of agency. I’ve seen it happen with digital firms. Who are asked to put together a landing page on a moment’s notice for something that they didn’t even know was, was being developed or planned or anything like that. You know, there are plenty of times where ad firms are asked to spin up a, a digital ad campaign on a moment’s notice. You know, the, these are, these are things that are generally better done when they’ve got some lead time and some, yeah, some planning abilities. Yeah. And so, you know, unfortunately you can complain to the client all you want, you need to bring us in sooner. But at the end of the day, I think we need to find more proactive ways as agencies to get ourselves into the conversation much sooner. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So a couple of things that have worked really well for us. One is that, I mean, obvious, this, this might be obvious, but if you’re doing executive or thought leadership communications with the CEO. That’s part of the conversation that you have as you’re developing content to say, what’s new? What’s upcoming? What are you working on? What can we be thinking about? So that’s just part of your ongoing conversation. If you’re not doing that, we have one client where we’re not doing that kind of work, but he, the CEO has a weekly email that he sends, and I just ask for us all to be put on the email. And so he, so it go, there’s one that goes to his board. And so we get those emails as well as a blind copy. And then there’s one that goes to the whole team, to the whole office, and we’re included on that too. So I can see, okay, from a board perspective, this is what’s coming, this is what they’re working on, this is what to expect for the next quarter. And then with the team one, we can see what they’re starting to communicate internally so that we can kind of see far further out. And then it’s my responsibility to give him a call and say, okay. Based on what I’m reading, this is, it looks like you’re working on, can we talk about this? So that’s a, that’s been a really good way for us to get sort of in the, the know before that stuff happens. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, getting yourself embedded with those internal communications so that you are getting copies of pretty much, you know, anything that you can get your hands on: weekly reports, internal emails, that kind of stuff. And, and so to the extent that you hear about things like that. Make sure to just ask, Hey, can we get added to that distribution so that we see it? I think the other key thing is the, this element of curiosity that you suggest. so that if you’re having a thought leadership conversation with a CEO or someone like that. Just ask what’s going on. Yep. Be curious. Do that in your conversations with your regular day-to-day contact. What else is going on? Yep. What are you working on? Just, Gini Dietrich: yep. Chip Griffin: Don’t, don’t try to, and I know a lot of agencies wanna just kind of stay within their lane and, and feel like geez, you know, I, I don’t wanna muck things up by going off into other territory. No. You, you wanna learn as much as possible about what’s going on, even if it doesn’t directly impact you today, because it may impact you tomorrow. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it’s, I think it’s just a nice way, the curiosity is a great way of putting it. It is just a really nice way to kind of, you know, we talked last week about how we get our employees to think strategically, but also how to get you up to that level too, of, oh, okay, well if you’re working on this, that means this and this, and this might be coming. if you’re working with much larger clients where you don’t have access to the CEO and maybe you have access to the marketing team or the comms team or whatever happens to be, it’s continuing to ask that question. But also as you’re helping with results and reports and things like that, you can start to say, okay, what are we working on for the next quarter? If there are quarterly assessment meetings, how do you get involved in those kinds of things? So it’s really positioning yourself Where those conversations are being had so that you can be part of that part of it as well. My team is very good at saying, can I be invited to that meeting? Like, yeah, sometimes. I mean, it’s, sometimes they say yes, and sometimes they say no. Chip Griffin: Yeah. You, you’ve got to get yourself into as many internal meetings as possible. Yeah. Particularly recurring ones. Yes. Those, those are often, they’re, they are sometimes the most boring, but they are often the most valuable to be in, because that’s where you make sure that you’re not getting blindsided because inevitably things that that will impact you either come up directly or you can read between the lines and see that there’s something there for you. And it’s, it’s not just so that you don’t get blindsided, it also can help you to spot opportunities, right. That perhaps the client wasn’t thinking of themselves. So, you know, I’m a huge fan and I know people complain about meetings all the time. Geez, I have too many meetings. And so there are plenty of agencies who say, I, you know, we don’t have time for any more meetings. We don’t want to be in their internal conversations ’cause only 2% of it is actually relevant to us. You know what, get past that. I agree. You need, you need to be in those. Yep. Now you need to price correctly so that you’re accounting for the time that you’ll spend doing it. So, you know, if you’ve only budgeted five hours total a month for a client, don’t go spend an extra 10 hours in client in, meetings that you, you’re gonna have to figure out how to price yourself better so that you have that. But it’s, it’s so valuable being in these meetings for all of the reasons that we’ve discussed previously, but it’s also, it’s helpful just in strengthening the relationship Yep. And, and making sure that you, you know, you don’t suffer from out of sight, out of mind, which is a huge problem for many agencies, particularly if you’re working in a very focused area. And, and so put yourself in a place where you get to be seen and you get to hear what is going on. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s absolutely critical. I think, you know, when I worked at Fleischman Hillard, one of the things that was really important to them, and sort of I’ve carried this through my, through my own culture as well, is that you spent a lot, we spent a lot of time with the direct client. So, you know, from my case at, at this point in my career, my quote unquote direct client was the sales rep who was out in the fields. ’cause I did a lot of ag pr who was out in the fields working with the farmers. Do you know how much I learned being out in the field with farmers? I spent an entire summer doing that. I learned about weeds, I learned about pests. I learned about how, you know things, weather, all the things that they had to think about and how the products that I was helping to support affected all of that. And it just gives you a different level of understanding and gives you a different access because then the client says, oh shoot. Gini needs to know about this. And you know, they call or text immediately. If you’re not part of the culture and part of the ongoing conversations, they’re not even gonna think about it. And I think that it’s really up to us to be able to sort of just insert ourselves into those conversations. Chip Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. I think the other thing is, and I know you’re a huge of, you know, doing quarterly planning. Yep. I, if you are doing more proactive planning, whether it’s quarterly or some other basis with your clients, that will help too, because you’re then forcing the conversation over what is coming. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so they may have not thought to, to proactively let you know, but because you’re driving the process, they’ll say, oh, right, you know, we, we’ve been talking about this new product launch that we’ve got, or we’ve got this event that we’re gonna be participating in, in the coming quarter. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna make sure that, that you are doing as well, so that you are, you know, not just part of the conversation, but you’re creating the conversation. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I love that. And that’s, that’s part of the reason I love the quarterly meetings. We have many clients, even at the enterprise level who do quarterly assessments and they force their teams to think, to review the, the quarter in the past and then think about what’s coming. And when you’re part of that conversation, you can start to see it through your lens and say, okay. If we’re, if you’re gonna be doing this, this, and this, then we need to be included to do, to be able to help you do these things. But I think you’re exactly right. You have to price for that. You have to make sure that it’s part of your process. And yeah, nobody wants to be in more meetings, but it actually helps. Chip Griffin: Yeah, it’s, I mean, it, it, it really helps on a lot of different levels. But now let’s take a moment to, to look at what happens when you don’t get brought in in time. You know, we, we can talk all we want about how to get yourself into the process earlier, but sometimes it doesn’t happen. And so I think it’s, it’s as important to think about how do you handle those circumstances because it, I don’t think most of the time it can be, sorry, we can’t do that. Right. Sometimes it might have to be that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. But, but that has to be the absolute last resort. Gini Dietrich: Well, I think it depends on what it is. Like. Chip Griffin: Sure, Gini Dietrich: there have been things for sure that you, that we’ve been like, we just, that it’s impossible for us to do it in that, in that amount of time. Like there’s just, it’s just not humanly possible. It’s not possible because of external factors. Whatever happens to be. So we will negotiate, I would say like the timing of it. Right? Well, if you want it next week, here’s what’s really feasible. We would’ve liked to have six months, but can we do it in three? Probably. So, you know, negotiating that. One of the things that we also started thinking about just a couple of years ago is, I don’t, we don’t call it this in the contract, but in the contract there’s sort of emergency finance funding essentially. So if you, if you are not bringing us in and you want something turned around that quickly is gonna cost you more. And some people, some of our clients exercise that option to pay more for it if to get it done in time. So I think you do have a lot of options. Obviously it’s not good for anybody’s stress or burnout or anything like that, especially if it happens all the time. But you can negotiate some of it to say, listen, we’re happy to help you with this, but we just can’t do it in five days. We can do it in 10. Right? And here’s why. Chip Griffin: Well, I think a, key is to let the client know what is possible, right? Right. So rather, rather than leading what you with what you can’t do, lead with what you can do. And that may not be the, you know, the, the full expectation that they have. It may not be everything they want, but, but you’re at least, you know, you’re starting with a positive. About what can be done, and say, okay, this is what we could do in five days, but if, if we were able to push it, and some things can’t be pushed, right? I mean, if it’s a, an event that’s taking place, sure there’s no ability to push it. But if it’s an announcement and you can say, Hey, if we had another week, here are the extra things that we could do with that additional week’s time. And so I think, you know, you always want to, to approach these kinds of circumstances with a client with that, that helpfulness mindset with an idea towards thinking about what’s possible rather than what’s not. Gini Dietrich: And I also think it’s important to have that conversation because I think too often we’ll say, yeah, sure, no problem. And we get it done, but it’s at the, at our expense, right? It’s at the expense of us or our team, or our time, or whatever happens to be. And because we do that, that’s the expectation for the next time. Correct. So it’s really important to have that conversation and set the expectation up front so that the next time this doesn’t happen and you start to train them, that they need to bring you in sooner. Chip Griffin: Right. Well, and, and I think the, the next time is a key part of this as well, right? You get through that moment, but then you need to have a, a conversation with the client about how could we, how could we have avoided this? Yep. You know, this, this fire drill that we had to go through, how could we make sure that next time there is the appropriate time and, and that might be, you know, the time where they say, oh, well, you know, if you were in this meeting with us, you would’ve seen it coming. And so they might surface things that would be helpful to you, whether those are those internal communications things or meetings that we talked about previously. But you want to have that conversation. Don’t, don’t do that, you know, in the heat of the moment. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right. Yep. Chip Griffin: Do that, you know, once you’ve gotten past the obstacle, you know, now you can have a much more reasonable conversation with somebody without them feeling like you’re accusing them or, you know, trying to, you know, CYA about the, the outcome or something like that. You want to just have that conversation once you’ve already done as best you can with the circumstances at hand, but figure out how to do better next time. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s, you know, I mean this goes, I said this last week, but this goes down to just a few, couple of things, right? It’s, it’s running your business more effectively from a financial perspective, understanding what things cost and how long they take to, to get things done. Making sure that you’re protected from a contract perspective. And have your one-to-ones. Yep. And that means client one-to-ones too, not just employees. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, so much of this goes down to the client communication side of things, and it’s, it’s because agencies have a, a tendency to hunker down and, and not talk about things that, that they don’t already know about because they’re afraid that, that, that scope creep is gonna happen because we’re having these conversations. Gini Dietrich: Right, Chip Griffin: right. So, geez, if I, if I try to talk to them about more things or I try to show up in more meetings, it’s just gonna mean more work for me without extra money. Well, that only happens if you allow it to. That’s right. And, and you need, I would rather be aware of all those things that are out there. I would rather the client is asking me to do more, and then we can figure out how to handle it. Don’t just do it and, and eat the cost, but, but don’t be afraid of those conversations because it could easily allow you to strengthen the relationship or even expand the relationship, so that you can make more money and more profit from that client. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. And that’s, that’s another reason I love the quarterly meeting, because that allows you to say, here’s what, here’s what worked last quarter. Here’s what we’ve been working on. Here are the results. Here’s what we’d like to do for next quarter. And then you have this conversation with the client who says, oh, well, well, we’re gonna do this. And you go, great. We can either replace this with that or we need a, a scope increase, and, and nine times outta 10 they say, oh, let’s throw some more money at it and get it done. Like, it gives you a really good opportunity not to just stay ahead of what they’re working on so that you can get your job done, but also increase your scope as well. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and, and, and finally, I would just say I, I think we all need to understand that our clients aren’t thinking about us every day in all likelihood. Gini Dietrich: Unfortunately not. Chip Griffin: And, and so, you know, we need to avoid that immediate knee-jerk reaction we have when these things happen to say, I can’t believe they left me out of this. They, oh, you know, they set us up for failure. No, they didn’t. They just, it just didn’t even occur to them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Would it be nice if it did? Of course, of course. But we can’t, we can’t allow that to impact our thought process or how we go about things. We need to, we need to do what we can to be part of the conversation, but still accept that these things will happen because you’re not sitting next to them at the desk or on their, you know, internal Slack talking to them all day, every day, like their coworkers are. So Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. Chip Griffin: It’s a balancing act. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Absolutely. Get yourself into the internal conversations where you can, if they have Slack or Teams, get in there, make sure that you’re having the right kinds of meetings so that you are part of the conversation. And of course, budget for it so that you’re not over servicing, but those are the ways that you can get, get the information you need ahead of time. Chip Griffin: Excellent. I think that is a great place to end this episode. So with that, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

"You cannot negotiate against yourself. Ask questions, gather data, be prepared—but don't assume the answer before you even start the conversation." - Gini DietrichWhat if the thing holding you back from making more money… is you? In this episode of Transformative Leadership Conversations, I'm chatting with Gini Dietrich, a seasoned PR pro and the founder of Spinsucks. Gini's not just a business owner, she's someone who's learned the hard way about money, confidence, and leadership.From a tough start to building an incredible business, Gini's story is a testament to what happens when you get real about your value—and how so many of us (especially women) hold ourselves back from truly owning it. If you've ever second-guessed your pricing, been nervous to ask for a raise, or just don't know how to explain your value to others—this episode is for you.You'll hear us discuss:It's not just numbers, it's mindset: A big part of negotiation skills is about your confidence—and often, fear. Gini talks about why it's important to learn how to overcome this, to get paid what you are worth.It's not just numbers and mindset, it's also about the right formula: Pricing isn't some mysterious or random guess—it's about knowing your costs and the profit you want to make. Gini explains how the correct price is actually calculated by factoring in your expenses plus the profit you aim for, and why you need to treat your rates as an evolving process, not a static figure.Confidence is a muscle: Whether you're running your own business or climbing the corporate ladder, confidence isn't automatic. Gini shares how building financial confidence is something you have to work at, constantly.Stop negotiating against yourself: So many of us do this without realizing it! Gini talks about the hidden ways we sabotage ourselves before we even sit down for that important conversation with a boss or client—and how to stop that cycle.Keep it professional: When you're asking for more—whether it's a raise or a new project—don't bring in personal stuff like credit card debt. Gini's advice? Stick to the value you bring to the table, not what you need to solve personal problems.Focus on the value, not the ‘deserve' factor: We often approach negotiations by asking, “Why do I deserve this?” Gini flips the script and explains why it's all about showing your boss, your clients, or even yourself, how much value you're adding.Data, data, data: You need to be armed with the facts when it comes to negotiating. Gini shares why doing your research and having the numbers to back up your requests is so critical to making your case.This isn't just for business owners: Even if you don't run your own company, this conversation is packed with practical advice for anyone looking to take charge of their career and negotiate for what they're worth.ResourcesGini Dietrich on Spin Sucks | LinkedInWinnie da Silva on LinkedIn | On the Web | Substack | Email - winnie@winnifred.org

You've seen them on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube - they're an increasingly popular and important method of connecting with the people interested in the companies you represent. On this week's episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich is talking about how to use this format, and how to integrate it into your PESO Model© strategy.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of mentorship for small agency employees. They explore various approaches including informal and formal mentorships, organic development of mentor-mentee relationships, and bringing in external consultants for mentorship. Gini shares her personal experiences, highlighting the challenges of forced mentorship and the benefits of organically developed relationships. The hosts emphasize the need for managers to support and mentor their employees, leveraging both internal and external resources, and the value of making time to mentor individuals outside one’s own organization. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Keep in mind that in a really good mentor-mentee relationship, the mentor keeps their mentee’s best interest at heart, even if it’s not the best thing for the organization.” Chip Griffin: “There are a lot of more modern approaches to mentorship because of all the technology and tools that we have available to us. Gini Dietrich: “Being a mentor almost always benefits you in the long run.” Chip Griffin: “There’s this fear, I don’t have time to be a mentor. Make time.” Related Helping your agency's new managers Managing employees in a small agency Helping agency employees to improve their PR skills View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think I need a mentor to help me through this whole podcasting process. Can you be my mentor? Gini Dietrich: Yes, I would love to. Thank you. Chip Griffin: Excellent. Excellent. So we are going to talk about mentorship today because this is something that I think a lot of small agency owners may realize that their team members need. I mean, they may need it themselves too, but we’re going to focus on it from an employee standpoint. You know, you’ve got, you’ve got employees, you want to try to help them to get to the next level in their careers. But honestly, most owners don’t tend to invest a lot of time in it themselves as far as helping to bring along team members because they’re all caught up in the day to day. And honestly, I think a lot struggle with how do I even do this effectively? And so I’ve seen a lot of different things over the years. I’ve seen forced mentorships in larger agencies where people are like, okay, you five new employees, you’re going to have designated mentors. And so they just assign people. I’ve, I’ve seen ones where people are encouraged to get mentors, but not given any guidance as to how to find them or how does it work? And so I think the, the question really becomes whether it’s a mentor or something similar, how do you help your team members get to where they need to be to, to be that future employee and not just a current employee? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s… They, they’re, I think you made this point somewhere along the line too, but it’s, it’s less, sometimes it’s not formal. Sometimes it really is, you know, for me, I’ve had situations where I’ve been informal mentors to clients. Like especially their, their young professionals on their marketing and comms teams. And where I have found that people look to me as their mentor, whether or not it’s formal is when I’m helping them with professional development and teaching and explaining. And so, you know, lots of one to one meetings or lots of education during meetings or it’s that kind of stuff. Like it’s helping them learn the next step in their job and, and kind of think through their career path. And, and like I said, maybe it’s formal and maybe it’s not, but as agency owners, I think we can think about that. Like how, how we’re best suited and you know, we can’t be a mentor to everybody, a formal mentor to everybody on our teams. But we are best suited to be able to say, okay, your strengths lie here, so I can see that you would go here, but having that conversation to say, hey, listen, you know, what do you, what do you want out of your career? Where do you think you’re going? How can we help you get there? And then say, here are the strengths that I see that you have. Let’s work on this together. So it could be part of a formal review process. It could be an informal, like, this is just how we run things. It could be part, it could be part of your culture. But there is the opportunity for all of us to really look at the people that we work with and say these are your strengths, let me help you play to them so that you can progress your career. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and to your point, I mean, I think that my own view is that the, the, the best mentorships develop organically. They are not, they’re not thrust upon you. They are not something where you’re actively seeking a mentor. It’s one where, you know, perhaps you’ve got a current or former boss who just, you know, really that you click with, both professionally and personally, and you can have open, honest conversations. I would say it’s generally, mentors are generally better when they’re not doing a performance review of you, but you can still, you can still be a mentor if you are the direct supervisor of an individual. And I think Managers in general need to view part of their role as being a mentor, even if it is not in a more formal organized sense, right? We need to be thinking about all of our team members who report to us in a way of how can we be helpful to them? And it, it shouldn’t be just, how can I be helpful to them in terms of what’s good for, for me in my role or my business, but how can I help them advance? Because if you help them move forward, that is ultimately good for you. It may not be exactly what you want when they decide they’re going to go off somewhere else, but down the road, they might become a new client, or they might be a boomerang employee, or all sorts of potential opportunities for you. So, so you need to give selflessly of yourself to the people who report to you. But in general, mentors are people that, that, that the individual just really meshes with. And I, I think it’s really hard to force that. And I’ve seen a lot of mentorship programs that, that try to do it in a more organized way and it’s better than nothing, but it doesn’t work at the same level of effectiveness as ones that develop organically. Gini Dietrich: I’m sure I’ve told this story before because it was very traumatizing for me, but I was probably a year and a half or two years out of college and I worked with a woman who was on a PIP. And my boss came to me and said, Hey, we want to give you some leadership and mentorship experience. We’d like you to work with her for the next 30 days as she’s on this PIP to see if you can get her out of it. To see if you can get her to exceed these goals. And at the time, you know, I’m a year and a half or two years out of college and I’m a young whippersnapper. I really thought I could help her do it. It was the most awkward, unsuccessful thing probably I’ve ever done. Because she didn’t want anything to do with me. She was older than me, and had more experience than I did, and was like, what do you mean I have to work with her? I don’t like her. I don’t trust her. Like, all of these things, and I’m like, I can help you so you don’t get scared, right? It’s terrible. But they wanted to give me that quote unquote experience. To be able to say, okay, these are the kinds of things that you should be thinking about. And, and truthfully, it did give me the experience to be able to understand what works and what doesn’t and what a mentorship, mentorship should look like. But it was a very, very awkward experience and truth be told, she, she didn’t make it the full 30 days. She, I think she quit after two and a half weeks. It was terrible. It was terrible. Chip Griffin: I mean, a PIP is the last time, you don’t want to be setting up a mentorship when someone’s in a PIP. I mean, PIPs are awful anyway. I’ve talked about this before. PIPs are stupid. PIPs are only to CYA. And if you actually think a PIP is going to work, you’re crazy. Gini Dietrich: It doesn’t. Yeah. Chip Griffin: But, but that is the, the time to look for and try to facilitate mentorships is when someone is doing generally well or is fairly new and you don’t have a lot of…that they shouldn’t be used as a corrective measure. And I have seen that before, where you, whether, maybe it’s even someone who’s not on a PIP, but someone just, you know, the boss feels like that, this person just needs a little help in progressing, they’re not quite where they need to be, maybe we’re not at a PIP, but we, we still want to help them out, and so a mentor is the solution. Not the solution. Mentors help you to become even better, they don’t generally serve to fix something that is wrong. And so if you’re looking at it that way, you’re, you’re probably going about it the wrong way. But let’s say that you’ve got a team and, and you, you’ve got some, some more junior employees who you think would benefit from mentorship, you know, how do you try to arrange for them to find those opportunities? And I think it’s a little bit more challenging today where we don’t have the same natural connection points because we’re not in offices in the same way that we used to be. And, and this is, while I, I generally, believe in, in remote work, this is one of the areas where I think it does create additional challenges because in the old days, you could build some of these relationships by going out for coffee or hanging out at the water cooler or the copy machine or the fax machine or all those things that we used to have back in the day that, you know, you younguns who are listening to us are like, what’s a fax machine? I, I’ve heard them reference it in a doctor’s office, but I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. So, you know, how do you… Gini Dietrich: The server, hang out at the server. Chip Griffin: Yeah. So how do you, how do you help out team members to find mentorship relationships or, or build them in some fashion? Gini Dietrich: I think it depends, which is the key to our podcast in general. Chip Griffin: Indeed. We could just say that just, I mean, every episode, it depends and then walk away. Gini Dietrich: See you later. Okay. Peace out. You know, I think it depends on what the goals are and what your culture is like and what the person or the team has in mind. In some cases, the mentor might be external and it might be somebody who can help them with networking or with leadership skills or pitching new business or whatever it happens to be, right? And it might be external. So it’s, I think you’re right when you said earlier that it’s really about somebody that you bond with and that you, because the real key to it is you have to trust one another and you have to trust that they have your best interests at heart. And if it’s somebody internal, that’s a little more challenging because you have to trust that they have your best interests at heart. And sometimes your best interest doesn’t align with the company’s best interest. Because it, that may be that your best interest is your employee’s best interest might be that, you know, two or three years from now they leave the organization to go on to do something else. And the company’s best interest is to keep them here, right? So you also have to keep that in mind that a really good mentor mentee relationship is the mentor keeps the, their, their mentee’s best interest at heart, even if it’s not the best thing for the organization. So, so it may be internal and it may not, it just depends. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I think there are absolutely pros and cons to both. And, you know, I think in an ideal world, it would be someone external because it does give you additional freedom. At the same time, someone who is, is internal can also commiserate with you in a way that that someone external might not be able to or they would understand some of the specific unique challenges that you have without you having to explain it in excruciating detail. You know, well, why is this person difficult to work with? Why are the expectations, you know, it requires you to go through a lot more. Now there’s benefits to explaining those things sometimes, because sometimes being forced to explain what the problem is can help you to see it more clearly yourself. But nevertheless, I think there are, there are clearly advantages and disadvantages to each approach. I will say that, you know, I’ve seen a couple of different approaches that organizations have taken to facilitating mentorships when they’re not organic. I think that there are, again, pros and cons to each. The first one is sort of, and I’ve been part of mentorship programs like these where it’s sort of a speed dating approach where you have a group of potential mentors and you have a group of potential mentees and you do the whole speed dating thing. You go around, you sit and you talk for, you know, two or three minutes. And then at the end, the mentees typically will make a list of their preferred mentors and then some organizer will make matches for that. And that’s, there’s, there’s one particular program where I’ve done that, multiple times with, and I will say that those are, it’s hit or miss. Because you still run into the issue of, you know, maybe in those two or three minutes that you had, you know, during the speed dating thing, you know, there were some connection or, or maybe, maybe there even wasn’t, but, but the, the mentee wanted to work with you because of what you do and who they think you can open doors to or whatever. And so, you know, I, I think that there are some challenges there, but it, it, it ends up getting you a mentor mentee relationship at least. And so it can be productive from that standpoint that you actually are moving the ball forward and some of them will survive the long term and some, you know, will fade out after three, four or five months, whatever. But it still can be beneficial to the individual if they’ve never had a mentor before to sort of see what it might look like. And so they can start thinking that through. So that is, that is certainly one approach to consider. Probably you would need to have a larger small agency. You know, 20, 30 employees as opposed to two or three employees, because obviously it doesn’t make as much sense if you’re really small. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think the other thing you can do is you can encourage your team to look to people they respect in the industry. You know, if there are thought leaders or industry influencers that they really respect or they like the way that they think, that’s a good way to do it. You know, I probably get I don’t know, a handful of requests every year from especially young women who are looking for mentors to help them kind of through their career path. So, and I almost always say yes, you know, and certainly depends on how busy we are, but I almost always say yes. So I think that that’s a good opportunity too, to look at, you know, thought leaders, subject matter experts and industry influencers that, that your team respects. And have them reach out, have them do the, the work to set to, to figure out if this is the right person and, and do the informational interview and, you know, do all the things that they need to do to make sure it’s the right person for that. But really support them in being able to do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, no, I, I think, and I think that the agency owners ought to be open to being mentors to people outside of your own organization. You know, you do have to be reasonable and not say yes to so many that you, you really can’t give the mentee what they’re looking for or what they need, right? Because then you’re not really serving them anymore. But I, but I, I think that’s less of a problem for most people than simply not saying yes enough. Because there’s, there’s this fear, I don’t have time for this. Make time. It’s, to me it’s, it’s like the pick the brain conversations that, that people are, I don’t have time for that, you gotta pay me for that. No. Look, if, if someone, if someone reaches out to you for career advice, wants to, to work with you potentially as a mentor, you ought to be open to it and try to find a way to make it work. Because you probably had people like that in your career that helped you to get where you are. And so you, I believe, you have an obligation to give back in some way. Now, if it’s not a fit or you just literally do not have time, it is what it is, right? Be honest with the person. But at the same time, lean towards saying yes as opposed to instinctively saying, Oh my God, I don’t have time for this. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I will say that, first of all, it doesn’t take that much time. It really doesn’t. Chip Griffin: It shouldn’t. If it does, then it’s not a mentor mentee relationship. You’re a free therapist or something. Gini Dietrich: Right. Fair. But it almost, I mean, karma is great. It always, almost always benefits you in the long run. Like, I have someone that I mentored years and years and years ago, and she’s at her third company now where they’ve hired us. So, we, my agency essentially follows her to every job, and it’s because of that relationship that we developed probably a decade ago. So. There are always benefits to it. It’s longer term. It’s a longer term investment for sure, but there are always benefits. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Now, the other thing that I’ve seen, this is, this tends to be again in more mid sized organizations, but I’ve seen, it’s not quite a true mentorship, but I’ve seen where the organization has brought in a consultant coach type who serves a similar mentor type role to individuals. And sometimes it’s with, and it, I wouldn’t call it a true like executive coaching kind of thing. It’s not true mentorship. It’s kind of a hybrid. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: But, but someone who can come in who has experience either on the human resources side of things or on the actual agency side or something like that, who can share perspective. Now, the trick here is that if you’re bringing in someone from the outside who is paid by the agency, that the employees have to feel like they can still open up. So it’s going to take some time for that person effectively to prove themselves to the team that they can be trusted with your deepest, darkest secrets, professionally speaking. Because if someone can’t open up to you, then you can’t have a productive mentoring or coaching or any kind of relationship like that. But it is, it, it, particularly if, if you are, if you really want to provide that kind of guidance and help and support for team members and you just, you don’t have the means to do it internally, bringing in someone from the outside can get you probably 80 percent of the way there. Obviously it requires an investment. It will take time for the trust to build, but that is another option that I have seen. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And to that end, Vistage, which is a worldwide organization for, started out for CEOs, but now has grown into all leaders, has a new emerging leaders program. I want to say it’s like 1200 bucks, maybe two grand a year. But you can do something like that too, where you, they, they can go into that program and it teaches them the leadership skills they need. You know, all of the things that they need to help you grow your, your business. Plus it gives them a group of people. That they can trust and they sort of quote unquote grow up with that they aren’t working directly with day to day and that’s pretty successful too. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and, and, and that’s the other thing to consider is that, you know, there are a lot of more modern approaches to mentorship because of all the technology and tools that we have here, available to us. And, and certainly, you know, we see that regularly in the Spin Sucks community where there are, you know, more junior communicators or marketers in there who are asking questions and building relationships with folks. And so there are a lot of these kinds of things out there that you can take advantage of and you can encourage your team to take advantage of as well. So that, you know, again, it’s, it’s not the same as a one on one mentorship, but there are, there are a lot of different ways to get the resources and support that you need in order to advance your career and help your team members advance their careers. And so you ought to be taking advantage of everything that’s out there. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah, I think it’s a good idea. It helps everybody. It helps you in the long run. It helps them for sure. And like you said, there, it may be that they leave and come back. I mean, they’re always, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t shy away from it just because you think they’re going to grow out of working with you because that’s going to happen anyway. And there’ll be opportunities for you to maybe bring them back later. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So, find a way to, to support your team members, find a way to, to help them find mentorships and, and cultivate mentorships and become mentors themselves, and you should be one as well. With that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini address the topic of pivoting for small agencies in response to changing economic and political climates. They discuss the importance of evaluating whether to switch niches, cautioning against overreacting to trends. They highlight the risks of chasing ‘gold rush’ industries like cannabis and AI without true expertise. The conversation includes advice on gradual pivoting, focusing on adjacent industries, and the importance of long-term planning. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “No industry loses the need for marketing, communications, advertising, digital services, etc. And even back in 2020, even industries like hospitality had new needs that needed to be met. And so if you’re serving that industry, could you adapt to provide what they need today in the current environment?” Gini Dietrich: “If you are thinking about pivoting to a new industry, it’s not something that you will do and be successful in 2025. It’s going to take some time.” Chip Griffin: “There are lots of places to go and chase revenue. You need to chase profits.” Gini Dietrich: “You absolutely can be using AI inside your agency and you could be teaching your clients how to use it effectively. But going all in and saying, “I’m now an AI agency” is not a very smart idea.” Resources “Pivot” scene from Friends “Pivot” outtake from Friends Related Rebranding or repositioning your agency Evolve your agency to find market fit View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And we have a special guest today. If you’re watching on video, Gini Dietrich: Say hi. Chip Griffin: A very restless canine. Gini Dietrich: Yes, she wants to play ball and I had to tell her it’s not time to play ball. Chip Griffin: No, we will. And we’re not going to play ball here on the show either. Gini Dietrich: No, no, we’re not. Chip Griffin: No, but to quote Ross from Friends, Pivot! Gini Dietrich: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Pivot! Chip Griffin: So, for those of you who have not seen Friends, just go watch it, I mean. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that one scene, you can Google it. Chip Griffin: You can Google that one scene. I’m, I’m sure that, you know, Jen will include it in the show notes because she, anytime we make a reference to a movie scene or a TV scene, she likes to actually link it, but we’re going to talk about pivoting, not in the same way that Ross on Friends was, was talking about it. We don’t have any difficulty moving a sofa around because we’re not going to move a sofa around. Gini Dietrich: No, we’re not. Chip Griffin: I will not even try anymore. If I did that, I would definitely hurt myself. We don’t want to hurt ourselves. We do want to talk about pivoting because, look, the world continues to change day by day. We expect more change in the years ahead. One of the questions that I know you’ve gotten, and that I’ve gotten from some clients, is should their agency be thinking about focusing on different industries, pivoting to a different focus. Because perhaps the industry or industries that they’re serving today don’t have as bright an outlook based on economic conditions, political conditions, other things. And so I guess, you know, the question is how do you figure out when to pivot and how do you go about it if you choose to do so? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s a hard one because you mentioned that we have, we both have clients who are thinking about this. Yeah, we, we’ve always said like it’s a really good idea to have an expertise and to have a niche and to really focus in on industries and it is. There also are cyclical events that happen that can affect certain industries. You know, during 2020, we saw hospitality, travel, tourism, all of those go down. And so if you didn’t have any other industries that you focused on, it was a really rough year for you. You know, that we always, we tend to talk about there are recession proof industries like healthcare, pet care, people always spend money on their pets, things like that, that you could think about. But there are industries right now that I think are, are going to be struggling in 2025 and beyond, regulatory kinds of things like, environmental, cannabis, you know, there’s some, some industries that are having a tough time. And so thinking about Is that, how do I take that experience and translate it to a new industry, I think is a smart thing to do because you want to have it diversified enough that when one industry is down, your, your whole business isn’t sunk. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s certainly something worth considering. I do, generally speaking, urge caution because it’s very easy to overreact to positive or negative news. Sure. And it is, it is rare that even an industry that may not be as thriving, today as it was a year or two ago, doesn’t still have opportunities. And in fact, for small agencies, sometimes your opportunities increase in an industry that’s, that’s struggling a bit. Not, not that’s completely down and out. I’m not talking about that, but, but someone that’s, that’s not as thriving because they may not have the budgets for the, the, the mid sized agency, the large agency. And so someone who is willing to take on smaller projects, be more nimble, might be an option. So before you decide to, to cast your lot in a different direction, I would really take a hard look at the industry you serve and ask, can you just adapt your messaging or adapt the services that you’re providing or package things up a little bit differently in such a way to be competitive in the current environment? Because no industry loses the need for marketing, communications, advertising, digital services, et cetera. And even back in 2020, even industries like hospitality, most of them had new needs that needed to be met. And so if you’re serving that industry, could you adapt to provide what they need today in the current environment? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. Because in 2020, some of the things that we adapted to were the need for CEOs to understand how to communicate values. Because, you know, for so long we’ve been told, CEOs have been told, don’t talk about your values, don’t talk about your beliefs because you’re going to alienate half of your customer base and then 2020 hit with a pandemic and social justice and all of a sudden they were told you have to, you have to do this now. And oh, by the way, this is how Gen Z makes decisions and they’re coming into the workforce. So we were able to kind of shift toward. education and training of executives on how to do those kinds of things versus, you know, the very tactical stuff that we up to that point had done, like earned media and content marketing and social media. Right. So there are ways, I think, to your point that you can find new opportunities within the industries that you service. And I would also caution that if you’re. If, if you are thinking about pivoting to a new industry, it’s not something that you will do and be successful in, in 2025, it’s going to take some time. So if you’re going, if that is a strategy, it’s something that you should be thinking about longer term. And it’s just like your business develop, development plan, your pipeline, you have to keep that full all the time. It’s the same thing here. You have to, you know, be really strategic because it’s a longer term effect than saying, Oh, I think I’m going to go into healthcare now, even though I’ve been doing cannabis for 20 years. So you have to think about it from that perspective too. Chip Griffin: And I think it’s important to think of it as pivoting and not throwing in the towel and starting fresh. Are there times you may need to do that? Yes. But that’s a whole lot harder and that’s a much longer timeframe, typically speaking, to get back to where you are today. And so if you’re, if you are thinking about this, if you have come to the conclusion that you really do need to move beyond the pool that you’re currently fishing in, the more closely adjacent you can remain to it. the more likely you are to be successful. First of all, you and your team have the knowledge that you need to succeed there. You know the language and those kinds of things and you know how to produce the results for that kind of client. So, my encouragement is to, before you start thinking about a whole new industry, think about how can you maybe expand your definition of the current industry or industries that you serve. How can you find something that’s immediately adjacent to it that you might be able to move into? Yep. And, and you’re much more likely to have success in the near term in that way than you are saying, okay, you know, I’m, I’ve, I’ve been, you know, in the oil industry. And so now all of a sudden I’m going to go into telecom or, Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: You know, something like that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually, last year I did a panel for Notified and one of the, my fellow panelists talked about this a little bit. He said, you know, when, when he was building his agency, instead of going after a whole bunch of different industries, he took his really specific automotive experience and then looked at adjacent industries. So he was able to go into, electric vehicles and then into tires, I guess, is, is pretty profitable who knew, and other manufacturing types thing, types of things that he had adjacent kinds of experience with. And I think that’s really smart advice. Because it’s not going, it’s not going from cannabis to healthcare, right? Or hospitality to manufacturing. It’s, it’s creating the opportunity for you to use the experience that you have and help build businesses inside different industries that are affected in the same way. Chip Griffin: And, and you really want to be thinking about, you know, who can, who can you solve similar problems for? What industries do you and your team already have knowledge about and around? So that you’re not having to start from square one and understand all of the, the lingo that they’re using. And understand their, their, heir client base and things like that. You really, you want to stick with the things that you know, and you know, you can succeed with. Because that’s easier to sell to a prospect, but it’s also easier for you to execute profitably. And we always talk about that, that it’s, it’s not just about chasing the revenue. There are lots of places to go and chase revenue. You need to chase profits. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And if you have to relearn everything, it’s really hard to generate profits, at least in the near term. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And also clients don’t want to pay you to learn on their dime. They want to hire agencies that have the experience and the knowledge. Because typically they’re hiring you because you’re the expert. Really hard to be an expert if you’re going into an industry where you don’t have any knowledge. Chip Griffin: And as you’re thinking about this too, I would also say, don’t chase the next gold rush. It’s really easy to sit there and say, okay, well, this industry is really hot right now. Everybody’s talking about them. There’s a lot of buzz around it. Those are generally places you don’t want to go unless you already have specific knowledge, expertise, connections, those sorts of things. And this has happened a number of times over the years. Where you have an agency that says, well, you know, I, I, I remember this very distinctly probably five, ten years ago, agencies left and right wanted to get into cannabis, because It was everybody’s talking about it. It’s starting to get legalized. There’s lots of opportunities. And so it sort of became a gold rush and you looked around and there’s like a million agencies that now claim expertise and focus on cannabis. Same thing happened a number of years ago with crypto. There’s a lot of these kinds of things. And as we sit here and we look at headlines here in 2025, there are going to be any number of things that you’re going to look at and say, Ooh, they’re going to be doing really well. I need to go chase that. You just need to remember everybody else is chasing it too. And so now what you’re doing is you’re going into an area that maybe you don’t have a lot of expertise or connections and there’s going to be a lot of other people flooding that market. Is that really where you want to be? You’re creating an uphill battle for yourself in a number of different fashions that is not likely to be helpful. Gini Dietrich: And I would say to that as well that when it’s not just industry that you should focus like that. You should, I mean, back in the day we had everybody say, Oh, Well, I’m going to be a social media agency now and look how well that’s turned out. And now everybody’s saying, well, I’m an AI, AI agency. You can bring social media into your agency, you can bring AI into your agency, but focusing solely on those things never, we’ve seen historically those, that doesn’t work out. I remember having a conversation with a really good friend who ran a PR firm and she said, we’re going to go in on all social, go all in on social media and that’s what we’re going to be is a social media agency. And that agency no longer exists. Which sucks, but because she went all in on it, and I remember saying to her, I don’t think this is a good idea, and here’s why, and she thought that I was wrong. And I’m not, not saying it, like, it’s, it was really crappy, she did not pivot like she should have. But same thing with AI, like you, you absolutely can be using AI inside your agency and you could be teaching your clients how to use it effectively. But going in all in and saying, I’m now an AI agency is not a very smart idea. Chip Griffin: And look, I think that that one of the things you have to think about anytime you have that kind of a specialization is you first have to start with, is this really an expertise that I have? Right. Right. So for, for folks like you and me, focusing on social media back in the day kind of made sense because we were sort of, you know, OG social media people, if you will. And, but I saw a lot of people who really knew nothing about social media. But they just, they heard about, and they’re like, so we need to focus on this. You know, same thing with AI. If you actually understand AI and, and you’re, and you find innovative ways to bring it, it makes more sense to at least integrate it with your practice in a, in a more direct way. Yes. But if you’re just doing it because you heard the term. And you’re like, this is the, this is where to go. You’re much less likely to have success. And I would also encourage you if you’re thinking about pivoting on your, the services that you offer or the focus from that standpoint, be really careful about hyper specialization. I think about the agencies just a couple of years ago who, we’re creating clubhouse practices and we’re going to focus on Clubhouse. Oh, right. How’d that work out for you? Or back in the day, I love this one, Second Life. I mean, there were, there were media outlets that had Second Life bureaus. I think Reuters is one of them. Gini Dietrich: Really? I don’t remember that. Chip Griffin: Seriously? Yeah. How’d that work out for you? Right. Right. You’ve got to be careful about chasing these things because just because they have headlines for a few weeks or a few months doesn’t mean that it’s something you need to be leaning that heavily into. Yeah. Particularly if it’s not something that you really understand, that you’re passionate about, that you have a way of going about monetizing it. Just saying it and, and including it in your, your marketing materials, because everybody’s using that term because everybody today claims AI. And they’ve been doing this for, I mean, even before, you know, we had chat GPT out there, you know, what, a year and a half ago or so people were still, they, they sprinkled AI into everything and software companies love to say, we use AI for this. No, you don’t. Now, today people actually are using at least generative AI for a lot of things legitimately in their, their products and services and that kind of stuff, but even still. It’s a stretch. And so don’t stretch on these things. Lean into what you actually know, where your actual expertise is, where you can actually produce results. Because if you just do it because of the marketing ability of it, you’re going to be caught out soon enough by your clients and prospects. And that’s not a comfortable place to be. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, go back to what I said earlier, which is clients hire agencies because they’re experts at something and it’s going to make their lives easier. So if you are an expert at it, then by all means, go all in. If it’s something that you’re interested in and want to become an expert, by all means, do that, but you have to do it on your own time, on your own dime. And I like to use our, my agency as the guinea pig, so figure out what works for us first. And then be able to say, you know, three or four years from now, we can help you do this. And these are the kinds of results we’ve seen. And it, and it’s because we’ve been able to use it, us as a case, my own business as a case study. So by all means, become an expert, but you can’t say that you’re an expert in something if you’re just starting out. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and, and so this is, this is a good place to also remind you that as you’re thinking about all of these things, you don’t need to go conquer the world all at once. And so if you’re worried about your, your current focus, whether that’s the service set or the industry that you’re serving, also remind yourself, how many new clients do you really need over the next six or 12 months in order to be successful? And so as you think about that, what you might do is you might have a long term plan for a pivot, but you don’t necessarily need to, to do a dramatic pivot today. That’s right. You can certainly look on the horizon and say, you know, we really need to be focused more on AI for the future. And so we’re going to, to test it on ourselves. We’re going to test, you know, we’re going to see how we can integrate it more. But for today, I don’t really need to have that pivot. That’s my long term pivot. Near term, maybe there’s more minor modifications that I can make. In who I’m targeting or what I’m doing in order to achieve the results I’m looking for. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I will, I will say this, leave you with this one piece of advice. They always say that it takes 10 years to have quote unquote overnight success. And we launched the PESO model in 2014 in Spin Sucks the Book. And it has literally taken 10 years. So, you have to think about it from that perspective. If I’m going to be an expert in something, if I’m going to quote, have overnight success in a new industry, if I’m going to have overnight success with a, a new service, it’s going to take some time and you have to plan for that. So, you’re not just going to go out and, you know, all of a sudden everybody goes, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. And where did you come from? Because that’s just not how it works. Plan for it. Start your pivot now because it could take a good decade before you get to where you want to be. Chip Griffin: There’s, there’s no get rich quick scheme out there, no matter how many YouTube videos you watch or, or business books that you buy that tell you here’s the secret to making, you know, 10 million as an agency owner. It’s, it’s slow, methodical, process driven work that brings you real success. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. Chip Griffin: So with that, we’re going to pivot to the end of this show. Gini Dietrich: Badump bump. Chip Griffin: I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Thought leadership was a significant theme on "PR 360 " throughout 2024. So, to close out the year, we gathered insights on the subject from a diverse group of guests from every facet of the PR industry. Recognizing that we can all use some help expressing our ideas, we've compiled 10 of our favorite tips and tactics to help inspire even better thought leadership throughout the PR and beyond in 2025.Key Takeaways:- What thought leadership means to 10 "PR 360" guests- How to be a better thought leader- Things thought leaders get wrongEpisode Timeline:2:10 April White, CEO and founder of Trust Relations3:20 Louis K. Gump. president of Cambian Solutions5:20 Gini Dietrich, founder of the influential Spin Sucks blog8:40 Amanda Proscia, COO and Co-Founder of Lightspeed Public Relations/Marketing10:00 Grace Keith Rodriguez, CEO of Caliber Corporate Advisers12:10 Dominick Miserandino, founder of TheCelebrityCafe.com14:00 Dana Maruffo, Senior Manager of Global PR and Communications for BigCommerce17:00 Jacqueline Long, President of Evins PR18:45 Amy Jackson, founder of TaleSplash21:10 Ekaette Kern, CEO and Head of Brand Consulting at TENET ConsultancySubscribe and leave a 5-star review: https://pod.link/1496390646Contact Us!• Join the conversation by leaving a comment!• Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Thanks for listening! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Walk into any PR conference these days, and it's all but guaranteed that you'll see a session or two about how communicators can effect real business impact. Panelists and speakers talk about how we can earn a seat at the table (even though we often have one) and get taken more seriously as business partners by "aligning with the business strategy" and "bringing measurement discipline" to "demonstrate the ROI of Communications." But then you (some of you) go back to your office, and the very executives you're trying to partner with ask you to "make this sound better" or "add some positivity" or--even worse--"can you spin this?" Spin, the bane of PR and the root cause of so much distrust, still infects our profession. But if you're an ethical communicator with the right set of tools, you'll confidently stand firm when you decline to "spin" and instead communicate with integrity and transparency. In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with agency CEO, prolific writer, in-demand speaker, and overall PR powerhouse Gini Dietrich. The author of Spin Sucks: Communication and Reputation Management in the Digital Age, founder of the Spin Sucks blog and community, and creator of the influential PESO Model, Gini has been a trailblazer in the communications profession and an advocate for transparent and ethical communication practices, and done more than most in steering the industry away from the damaging concept of "spin." Dan and Gini discuss the critical role of the PESO Model in strategic communications, breaking down its components—Paid, Earned, Shared, and Owned media—and how they integrate to create measurable, impactful results. Gini shares her insights on the importance of building trust and authority in a post-truth world, where misinformation and disinformation are rampant. They also dig into how AI will become even more central to the communications field. Gini reveals how AI tools are enhancing productivity, offering new ways to manage content creation, data analysis, and strategic planning. From leveraging AI for content development to using it as a virtual assistant, Gini provides practical examples of how technology is reshaping the way communicators work. Whether you're a seasoned PR professional or new to the field, this episode offers valuable lessons on ethical communication, the significance of the PESO Model, and the integration of AI into modern PR practices. Tune in to learn how you can navigate the challenges of today's media environment and build a more authentic and trustworthy communication strategy. Listen in and hear about... The damaging impact of "spin" on the PR industry's reputation and the push for ethical communications How the PESO Model integrates paid, earned, shared, and owned media for strategic communications How media relations is evolving (or devolving) in a world where traditional media trust is declining The importance of building owned content and community to maintain control over brand messaging AI's role in enhancing productivity and efficiency across all aspects of the PESO Modeal The shift towards earning attention rather than just media hits in today's fragmented media environment   Notable Quotes On Navigating Post-Truth America: “It's funny you say that because I think we're in a world now where we live in what has been dubbed the post truth America, which sucks in and of itself. But as communicators, we have to kind of figure out how to navigate that. And part of that is you can't spin, you can't lie, you can't be unethical, you have to be extraordinarily transparent and authentic.” — Gini Dietrich [00:03:37 → 00:04:00] On Misinformation: “It's interesting how there's been such a upswell in discussions of misinformation, disinformation, mal information, information, any of the informations. So much so that, you know, I firmly believe that even the term misinformation is a kind of misinformation.” — Dan Nestle [00:04:38 → 00:04:55] On Crisis Communications: “But if there's an interpretation, then just, you know, there's gotta be some way. Look, label it as such. I know that's. That some people try. But, you know, sometimes what has been decried as misinformation is turned. Turns out to be totally true later. Or what is said to be true turns out to be, like, disinformation later. Like, it's just. It's just a mess. So we need to really be able to not only stand by what we say is misinformation or have rationale for it, but if it turns out that we were wrong, we have to come out and say we were wrong.” — Dan Nestle [00:05:55 → 00:06:31] On the PESO Model: “It's not a list of tactics. You can't just pull tactics from each media type and call it the Peso model. It's really about an integrated model that's measurable and it's measurable to the things that executives care about.” — Gini Dietrich [00:09:00 → 00:09:15] On Media Consumption: “Think about how you get your information. I mean, unless you're, unless you're 80 years old or older, you're not getting information or your news from TV anymore. You're just not.” — Gini Dietrich [00:25:29 → 00:25:44] On the Evolution of Media Relations: “We do a lot of work with universities and through our, through our certification. And one of the things that I've noticed in the last five years is that when you talk to college students about media relations or earned media, the first place they go is not traditional media ever.” — Gini Dietrich [00:24:02 → 00:24:20] On AI's Role in Content Creation: “AI is giving us time. It's giving us more time in our day. It's making us more productive. And so when we refresh the model in January, really, we Were only looking at AI from an owned media perspective. And I think that has massively changed this year.” — Gini Dietrich [00:42:44 → 00:43:00]   Resources and Links Dan Nestle Inquisitive Communications | Website The Trending Communicator | Website Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack Dan Nestle | LinkedIn Dan Nestle | Twitter/X Gini Dietrich The PESO Model | Website Spin Sucks | Website Spin Sucks: Communication and Reputation Management in the Digital Age | Amazon.com Gini Dietrich | LinkedIn Gini Dietrich | Twitter/X   Timestamped key moments from this episode (as generated by Fireflies.ai)

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss strategic planning for growing an agency in 2025. They stress the importance of planning during Q4 and consistently gathering ideas throughout the year, whether digitally or using methods like post-it notes. They highlight the common mistake of agencies relying solely on referrals or word-of-mouth without proactive strategies. The hosts also emphasize the need for business owners to define their personal and business goals before crafting a detailed strategy to grow, warning against simply emulating others without considering personal business objectives. They touch on diversifying revenue streams and advise focusing on mastering one business development approach well before expanding to other approaches. The importance of involving team members and contractors in the planning process is highlighted to ensure a holistic and informed strategy. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You need to make sure that you’re defining what you want from the business before you start putting together the plan for the agency. Because otherwise you’ll just be following some steps that work for someone else, but not for you..” Gini Dietrich: “I think a lot of agency owners say, well, I grow by referral and word of mouth, but they don’t actually do anything to help referrals and word of mouth come in.” Chip Griffin: “What you need to do is pick one business development strategy and do it well and do it consistently. Once you do that you can think about adding additional tactics to it.” Gini Dietrich: “If you hate speaking, if you don’t want to get up on stage, but you hear everybody’s doing it, don’t do it. Because if you don’t enjoy it, you won’t do it consistently.” Related Agency owner growth expectations and business development insights revealed in Q3 SAGA survey How to accelerate your agency's growth in the year ahead Smart use of content helps agency business development View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I want to know how do we grow our businesses next year? I realize that’s not a fun, entertaining intro. Gini Dietrich: I know, but you also, you also started this by flipping me off. So we’re, we’re in good spirits today. Chip Griffin: Well, you know, you were picking on me and I was having trouble getting the Streamyard thing to record correctly. And so, yes, we were off to a great start, but our goal is to help you to get off to a better start in the year ahead. Cause it’s Q4, so people are starting to make their plans for the next year, or at least thinking about it. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And it’s better to be planning now than, you know, starting to think about it during the holidays and saying, Oh, wow, it’s January 1. I probably ought to do something different. Gini Dietrich: Or, or in like March of next year, when you realize you’re not growing the way you thought you would and you start planning. Chip Griffin: Sure. No, that’s, that’s, that’s fair. But, but I will say that, you know, usually in the first couple of weeks of January, I get a flurry of emails from agency owners who are saying, Oh, you know, I was thinking about it and I need to do something different this year. Uh huh. Think about it now in Q4 so that you can hit the ground running on January 1, as opposed to, you know, not being ready to do something until March or April of next year. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, it’s just like you’re doing, you do for clients. You don’t start their planning in January. You start their planning now. So that’s a really good time. You’re already in the mood. You’re already in that mode. Like start thinking about it from your perspective. But one of the things I do is throughout the year, I keep post it notes, and so for those of you on video, you can see my post it notes, of ideas that we have. And then starting about now, I’ll start to put them up on big poster paper and moving things around to say, okay, this is what we want to do this quarter and this quarter and quarter. So we have, I have a big piece of paper for each quarter. And then once we kind of figure that out, we craft the plan from there. So you. It’s something that I think about all year. It’s something that my team thinks about all year. I just keep it on post it notes on my desk. And then about now is when we’ll start crafting the plan. Chip Griffin: Post it notes. Okay. I mean, you know, the rest of the world has gone digital and you, I mean, I… Gini Dietrich: It’s one of those things that it’s like, First of all, it’s, it’s in front of me. And secondly, it’s like a quick note, like a quick thing. So I don’t want to have to open a document where I keep stuff. And you know, it’s just the, or my, I might be on a call or I might be doing a podcast recording and somebody says something, I’m like, Oh, that’s a good idea. And I jot it down on a post it note. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, in all seriousness, it’s a good idea to be collecting ideas throughout the year on all sorts of stuff, your business, your clients, anything else. And so whether you do that digitally. Or whether you do it on paper doesn’t really matter, but it’s, it is a helpful exercise to go through and now is the time to start collating those, bring them together, talking with your teams, flipping through them yourself and just, and, and seeing, do they still resonate? Sometimes you’ll make a note six months ago and you’ll be like, no, that’s, that was a fleeting thought, but that’s not. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, Chip Griffin: that one didn’t hold up too well. But then you see another one. You’re like, Oh, absolutely. I need to zero in on that because that is something that I need to address or that is a helpful idea or what have you, because it doesn’t necessarily have to be an idea of how to solve a problem. Sometimes it’s just noting that there is a problem so that when you are doing your planning, you can try to figure out how to improve things. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So I think it’s really, it’d be really interesting for us to talk today about what that looks, what the plan looks like. Because I think a lot of agency owners say, well, I grow by referral and word of mouth, but they don’t actually do anything to help referrals and word of mouth come in. They sort of just wait by the phone for it to ring. There are lots of agency owners who say, Oh, well, I’m not I want to start with strategy, but I don’t know how to get clients to pay for strategy or, Oh, you know, we tried that and it didn’t work. So we’re going to do this instead. So I think there’s a lot of like, we’ve done, we’ve kind of grasped at things to see what works and what doesn’t, but there isn’t anything that says, This is what we’re going to do in 2025, and this is how we’re going to achieve it. Chip Griffin: Can I beat a dead horse first? Gini Dietrich: Yes, please. Chip Griffin: So, with all apologies to PETA. Look, you have to start with figuring out what you want from the business, because the, the problem that I see time and time again working with owners is that they come in and they start talking about how to get more clients or generate more revenue, but they haven’t even taken the step of trying to figure out what they want from their business in terms of financial benefit, the kind of work they want to be doing, the amount of work that, so you need to, and that’s something you need to refresh on an annual basis or as life events happen, because what you want this year may not be the same thing that you wanted a year or two ago. Maybe your family circumstances have changed. Maybe your own personal interests have changed. Maybe, you know, whatever it is, you need to make sure that you’re defining that before you start putting together the plan for the agency. Because otherwise you’ll just be following some steps that, that work for someone else, but not for you. And your business needs to work for you fundamentally. Otherwise you’ll be miserable. And there’s no point of being a business owner if your business isn’t giving you what you want. Gini Dietrich: I have such a good point and I don’t think it’s beating a dead horse because it’s a good reminder for all of us. And one of the things that I said in 2019 is we’re going to do less agency work and we’re going to do more Spin Sucks professional development work. Well then 2020 happened and the world fell apart and clients suddenly needed crisis work. They needed reputation. They needed help understanding how to communicate values. Like there was all this stuff that they needed. And so we jumped back into agency work and had a couple of really bad experiences in the last couple of years, where at the beginning of this year, I said again, so this is five years later again, We’re going to do less agency work. I’m going to grandfather our current clients in, and we’re going to do more Spin Sucks professional development work. And for the most part, we’ve done a really good job of that. So going into 2025, one of the big goals for us is just to continue down that path. And so I have to constantly remind myself, no, I really appreciate that. This just came over through email. It’s not the work that we want to be doing because It’s, it’s not the team that I’ve built. It’s not the expertise that we have anymore. It’s not what I want to be doing. So can we do agency work? Of course. Do we still do it? Yes, but I don’t want to be going full feet 100 percent into it. I want to be focused more on the Spin Sucks side. So it’s a really good reminder. I think for all of us that it’s, this is the kind of business at this point in my life and at this point stage in my career that I want to build. And it doesn’t matter what other people think or say, like stay the course. Chip Griffin: So now that we’ve beaten people about the head and shoulders and reminded them they need to, to make the business work for them and set their own objectives, you know, now I think it’s fair to talk about it because almost everybody is, is going to want to grow their business in some fashion. Right. You know? Absolutely. And, and, and the the old saying is if you’re, if you’re not growing, you’re dying as a business that’s, you know, not exactly true, but pretty close. Yeah. And so even if you have a full slate of clients that you’re happy with today, you still need to be out there. Looking for new business because you will lose clients over time. You will have clients that get out of scope and, and that you need to, you know, bring on better paying clients, more profitable clients, those kinds of things. So there’s always a reason to be out there hunting. And so if you are in that position as 99 percent of our listeners are, if not all of them, how do you think about going about and growing your business in 2025? Gini Dietrich: Well, there’s a couple of things, right? I mean. We are really great at content and we’re really great at marketing the agency. We’re really good at it. And so a lot of the work that we do, just like anybody listening comes through referrals and word of mouth, but we’re really active in promoting that and in staying top of mind. So we have the blog, we have a podcast, we have this podcast, we have a LinkedIn newsletter. We have a weekly email newsletter that people can subscribe to. There’s a whole bunch of different things that we’re doing for my business to be able to grow and to stay top of mind. And I’ll still, to this day, a lot of our referrals are a lot of our business comes from referrals. But they come from places that I wouldn’t expect. Like we just got a gigantic piece of business that the referral came from the American Marketing Association. I don’t have a relationship with the AMA, but they know of us. and they know of the work that we’ve done and they know of the PESO model and they said, listen, if you want to do this, this is who you should talk to. And, and because of that, so we got that referral from the AMA, but they knew about us because of all the content that we create. And that we have developed around the PESO model. So, you know, I’m big on passive income. I’m big on process. I’m big on all of these things because that’s, what’s going to keep you top of mind and bring those referrals and word of mouth in more actively than you just sitting and waiting for the phone to ring. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, ultimately you’ve got to do something, right? So, so I, I think the real problem is, is so many agencies do sit around just waiting for the phone to ring and, and, and that may not be intentional. It may be because they just feel like we’re too busy where it was too much client where we, or, you know, or, or we, we can’t make a decision about what kind of business development strategy to follow. Ultimately, what you need to do is you need to pick one thing and do it well and do it consistently. Once you do that you can think about adding additional things to it. But the problem that I see is a lot of agencies, when they sit down and do this planning is they say, Oh, you know, Chip and Gini talk about podcasts being a great thing. We should do that. And I was listening to these other folks who said, you know, you need to have some kind of an outbound strategy. So I’m going to be doing outreach and someone else said, it’s really important to have an email newsletter. So I’m going to start an email newsletter. You can’t do all of the things at once. And so you need to pick something. And execute on it well, first, then you can think about adding other things. And I’ll tell you, it really doesn’t even matter what that tactic is. Gini Dietrich: I agree with you. Chip Griffin: It really doesn’t. I mean, it can be a podcast. It could be blogs. It could be newsletters. It could be LinkedIn strategy. It could be outreach. I don’t even care what it is. Just pick one thing. And if you do it well and you do it consistently, it’s going to make a difference. Is it going to get you everything you need? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know, but you’ve got to start there because if you do all of the things at once, I guarantee you, it will not work. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you can’t, like, it’s too, this is what I say to people all the time when they’re implementing the PESO model. Don’t try to do it all at once because you become overwhelmed. You become overwhelmed by it. If you’re going to create an online course, for instance, because you have, you want to develop some passive income, people get all overwhelmed, completely overwhelmed by, I have to produce, I have to write the script and then I have to produce the videos and then I have to have it all be made beautifully. And then I have to create the online course and then I have to do an LMS. And I like, you don’t have to do all of those things. Just start with a webinar and charge for it and, and build it from there. Like. We try really, really hard to say, this is the one thing I’m going to do. And this is how I’m going to use it to help me grow my business in 2025 and then break it down into easily manageable chunks. So that you’re not saying, Oh, you know, it’s June and I haven’t done anything because I’m so overwhelmed by this gigantic project. It’s just like anything else that you’re producing for client. You produce those things for clients because you break them into small, manageable chunks. Not because you say, Oh my gosh, I have to have this done by the end of October. And it’s October 15th. That’s not how you do things. And it’s not, it’s the same thing with your own planning. So to your point, Chip, figure out the one thing that you’re going to do and just do it really well. And then you can grow from there. Chip Griffin: Well, and let’s, let’s talk about diversifying your revenue streams as well, because that is often part of the plan because they listen to us. And we talk about the value of diversifying your revenue streams, whether that’s simply having retainer and project revenue, or bringing in more passive income streams, as you talk about a lot. That is often part of the plan, but just like the business development tactics themselves, you can’t go adding a whole bunch of things at once. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And, I would also tell you, you should not be looking to diversify until you’re executing well on what you’ve already got. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So one of the challenges that I, I often see is that someone will try to introduce a passive revenue stream, but they haven’t even really nailed the their core model of retainer or project or a mix of those two. And so you need to make sure that you are executing on that well, before you start adding in other things, because otherwise they will all suffer. Now, the one exception would be is if you’re pivoting your business and if you’re saying, okay, I’m moving away from retainer based revenue to projects or to passive or whatever. Fine. But you need to accept that you’re doing that and it is going to, and you, and you’re going to put the emphasis on that new revenue stream, which you understand will likely harm the existing revenue stream. Because you’re, you’re not likely. I mean, it’s possible that both will work at the same time, but it is unlikely for most small organizations and so you need to be committed. Gini Dietrich: Right. It’s two different businesses if you’re doing that, because one is service based, fee based, and one is for lack of a better term, product based. So it’s a completely different business. So if you haven’t figured out how to run your business on the agency side, it’s going to be really challenging to try to run it on the product side and to do both. And trust me coming from me, like it’s, it’s really challenging. It’s two different businesses. Chip Griffin: And, and I would also say, as you’re thinking about business development tactics or revenue streams, you don’t necessarily have to love everything that you do, but you can’t hate it. Yep. And, and so if you hate cold outreach, I don’t care how many gurus tell you that cold outreach is the answer. Don’t do it. If you hate LinkedIn, do not emphasize LinkedIn. Because if you hate it, you will not move forward with it. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to love it and say, just, I I’m really super passionate about this. I want to do this. I mean, does it help? Sure. Absolutely. But I think the core thing is to make sure that you don’t hate it. Same thing with different lines of business. If you hate teaching, don’t, you know, create a course or a webinar. See, like if that’s not you don’t do it. You’ve got to get satisfaction from it and you can’t hate it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. If you hate speaking, if you don’t want to get up on stage, but you hear everybody’s like, don’t do it. It’s like, because you won’t, if you don’t enjoy it, you won’t do it. So I have one client who has a podcast. And the beginning of this year, we said, I, we, we started to work on it and we said, okay, if this is the one thing that you’re going to use to promote your business in 2024, let’s think about how to do that so that you can actually drive business from it. And so what she did is created a dream list of clients that she wants to work with. And she started inviting their chief marketing officers or marketing directors on as guests. And they have a discovery call first. So, you know, just like, This is the podcast. Here’s what, you know, do a tech check, all those kinds of things. Because a lot of these people have never been on podcasts before, or they’re on very few. And during that call, that first call before she has them on the podcast, she askd some questions to get to understand, like, do you have an agency who you’re working with? What works? What doesn’t? She gets, she understands that. And then she does the podcast interview. And at the end of that, she says, you know, when we were talking before, something like this, when we were talking before you had mentioned that you were really wanting to do some more thought leadership kinds of things this year, I think we can help you with that. I’ve really been thinking about it. Would you mind, would you like to have that conversation? And nine times out of 10, they say yes. So she’s been able to grow her business doing that with something that she’s already, that she was already doing. But you know, before she was inviting people like that she knew would help grow the audience. So they were influencers in the space, but not necessarily anybody who was going to help her with her business. And now she only invites people that she wants to work with, you know. That she has like, they’re on her client list, her dream client list. So there are lots of things that you can do, but that the only thing she does is that podcast, that’s it. And then she promotes it on LinkedIn with a nice video recap. And she promotes it in her email and that’s it. And she’s been able to grow her business this year because of it. So you don’t have to do all the things. Do one thing really well. Chip Griffin: Right. And, I think what you’ve underscored there too, is that doing one thing doesn’t mean that you just do a podcast, launch it, throw it out there and walk away from it. Right. It feeds other things, right? So. For me, the podcast that we do here is one of the things that I do, but it gets used in many different ways. There’s an audio version. There’s a video version. It goes in the newsletter. It goes on the website. It goes in our Slack community. I mean, it goes so many different places. And so that one, that, you know, the 30 minutes that we take to record this. Plus another 30 minutes of just, you know, gossiping and chit chatting and whatever. Gini Dietrich: Gossiping. Chip Griffin: It gets reused in a much more useful way. Right. And so we are leveraging the time that we spend in order to get more results out of it. So when we say focus on one thing, it doesn’t mean literally just one thing. It means that’s the nucleus of it. And you do other things to help build it up, but it’s, everything is oriented around that tactic in order to be successful. As opposed to, we’re going to do a podcast and separately, we’re going to do a whole different blog series and separately, we’re going to do a whole different webinar series and all those things. Once you execute on one thing, fine. Start adding other things to the mix. There’s nothing wrong with that, but execute well what you’re doing first, before you even think about it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And it’s, I think it, I think it’s a lot less overwhelming when you think about it that way. Like. I’m going to promote the podcast episode this week. So it’s going to go in the newsletter, it is going to go on LinkedIn. It’s going to go on social media and we’re going to, we’re onto the next, but it’s also helping you grow your business. So it’s helping you stay top of mind for those referrals and word of mouth. And you’re being proactive about inviting guests to be on the podcast, who you think you’d like to work with. So it helps you in it from, from both sides. So pick one thing, you know, and if it’s content development and you want to invite guests to contribute a quote or things like that, then, you know, if it’s written, if it’s video, if it’s audio, whatever’s comfortable for you, do that first. Chip Griffin: And the other thing I would say is that as you’re thinking about your growth plan for the next 12 months, get help, talk to your team. Don’t, don’t do this in isolation where you’re just, you know, sitting there on the couch by yourself, trying to figure it out, involve your team, involve contractors that work for you and know your business well. Work with a coach, join a community. There are all sorts of things that can help you to do a, a better job with your planning so that you’re not just trying to do it all inside your own head, because it is so valuable to get additional perspectives. Obviously listening to a podcast like this. That’s great, right? But there are other things that you can do that are more interactive, whether that’s joining the Spin Sucks community, the SAGA community, or talking with other agency owners, just saying, Hey, you know, I want to see what you’re seeing and, and, and, you know, how we might be able to collaborate in the new year or what, what lessons you’ve learned over the last 12 months that we can apply for each other, those kinds of things. There are so many of those opportunities out there. Again, figure out what works for you. If you, if you like to talk with groups of people, join a group. If you’d like one on one help, get one on one help. If you, you know, but certainly use your team. Start there because if you keep your team in the dark, you’re, you’re wasting an incredibly valuable resource. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s really smart to involve your contractors because I’m sure they see things or have ideas. You know, and they’re working with your clients too. So there may be things that they’re like, Oh, you know, actually this, I had a conversation with so and so and they, so and so client and they suggested this and I forgot to mention it to you. So I think there’s a, I love that idea of, of working with your contractors too, because many of, most of us work with contractors and don’t usually involve them in the planning. Chip Griffin: Right. And I think it’s, it’s key to understand that it needs to be a win win for them, right? This can’t be, this can’t be, you’re just trying to, you know, suck free work out of your contractors. It needs to be in terms of, I want to talk about these things because it might create new opportunities for you as well. Yep. And so let’s put our heads together and see what we can come up with. And, and I think a lot of owners are hesitant to ask their contractors for help because they feel like they need to pay them for that. But if you are brainstorming things that truly are mutually beneficial and that you’re not just, you know, sucking away their time, it, it makes sense for those contractors to work with you and brainstorm as well. Gini Dietrich: 100%. I totally agree with that. Love that idea. Chip Griffin: So put your heads together. You get as much advice as you can, put together a plan, focus on one thing and just commit to it. And once you execute well, you’ll start seeing results. Gini Dietrich: Do it, do it, do it. Chip Griffin: So that’s the plan. We’re all done. And, you know, we’ve given you all the information you need and nothing else. You’re all set. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Don’t tune in next week. Nothing there. Chip Griffin: No, this is it. Just go back. No, of course you need to tune in next week because I’m sure we’ll be talking about something really intelligent and important next week. We have no idea what it is because we choose our topic 30 seconds before I hit the record button or sometimes a minute and a half when it takes me a hard, a lot of time to try to figure out how to hit record now in StreamYard, but it is what it is. So, on that note, we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode of the PR Wine Down, April and Laura welcome special guest Gini Dietrich! Gini is the founder, CEO, and author of Spin Sucks, host of the Spin Sucks podcast, and author of Spin Sucks (the book). She is also the creator of the industry-famous PESO Model.   Together, they dive into Gini's impressive career and discuss the future of PR across an expanding digital landscape, including the changes brought on by the rise of AI and the challenges associated with the increasing fractionalization of the news media. Plus, in this week's PR News segment, the hosts tackle a recent news story about a Colorado man who was left behind by co-workers on a corporate hiking retreat, and had to be rescued. April and Laura break down how this incident played out in the media and discuss what this unfortunate situation reveals about workplace culture today. Follow Gini's work here: https://spinsucks.com/  Read the PR  News of the Week here: https://www.si.com/onsi/adventure/hiking-feed/colorado-man-rescued-after-being-left-behind-by-co-workers-on-hiking-retreat  Connect with Trust Relations: Have an anonymous PR horror story to share or questions you want to be answered on the show? Email us at contact@prwinedown.com. You can stream the show live at 2:00 pm ET every Saturday, on ElectroMagnetic Radio. You can also connect with Trust Relations on our website or on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. ⁠Visit the TR website here.: https://trustrelations.agency/  Sound effects obtained from https://www.zapsplat.com. Send in a voice message here: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/prwinedown  

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the critical aspects of onboarding new clients in the agency world. They emphasize the importance of setting clear expectations, proactive communication, and understanding client processes. The conversation includes tips for achieving quick wins without overburdening clients, integrating with client systems, and maintaining a sustainable pace. Both hosts highlight the significance of being adaptable and helpful, ensuring a successful long-term partnership with clients. They also share insights into balancing immediate results with strategic long-term goals. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Setting clear expectations is fundamentally the absolute most important thing to do with any kind of relationship, but particularly the agency client relationship.” Gini Dietrich: “There are lots of things that you can do really quickly to provide some tangible results that help clients understand that you’re doing work leading up to the longer play stuff.” Chip Griffin: “It is a real balancing act to get this right in those early stages, because you need to show enough that it’s worth keeping you around, but not so much that you have nothing left to do.” Gini Dietrich: “Our job is to make their jobs easier, and if you’re accustomed to G Suite and Zoom, which I am, going into a Microsoft environment is challenging, but I think it’s important to be able to do those things for the client to make things as easy as possible.” Related Setting expectations for agency clients How to onboard new agency clients View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m GIni Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And GIni, we have a new client of this podcast. We’re going to have to onboard them. I don’t know what a client of the podcast would do, actually, though. Gini Dietrich: I don’t, yeah, maybe it’s a sponsor. Chip Griffin: Could be. We get asked about sponsorships pretty regularly, but most of them are pretty sketchy, so. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Kind of like link backs. Chip Griffin: Having a sponsor would be more trouble than it’s worth, I think, so. Gini Dietrich: I think so too. Yeah. Chip Griffin: I kind of like that we’re free to say whatever we want and we don’t have to suck up to sponsors. Gini Dietrich: And we can be honest about vendors in the industry and stuff like that. Chip Griffin: Yes. But we’re not going to talk about vendors in the industry today because that would probably get us into trouble with or without a sponsor. So, instead Why don’t we talk about onboarding clients because this is a topic that came up recently in the Spin Sucks community and of course if you are not a member of the Spin Sucks community you should absolutely join it over conversations in there and so where do you go to do that Gini? Gini Dietrich: Oh, Spinsucks.com/Spinsuckscommunity. Chip Griffin: Because after all these years, you still can’t get the URL Spinsucks.com/community to make it simple for everybody. No, Gini Dietrich: it doesn’t work. I don’t know why. Chip Griffin: In any case, go to her website and you’ll be able to sign up for it. And it’s a great place for conversations with people in house, in agencies, all that kind of stuff. But one of the conversations recently was about how to effectively onboard new clients for your agency. And so since we are all, according to our research, optimistic about what business development holds for the future, we’re going to be onboarding a lot of clients in the agency world. So yeah, we got to figure out how to do it correctly. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, it was a really good question. You know, he said, there’s been a substantial amount of digital ink that’s been spilled about how to foster a successful relationship between an agency and a new client partner. But I am interested in the unique perspectives of the agency leaders here beyond the usual setting clear expectations for success in both directions, proactive communication, deep understanding of the client’s business and products. What are your top battle proven tips for ensuring a successful agency client relationship in, say, the first six months? Chip Griffin: I mean, the first thing I would do is not just gloss over the setting clear expectations part. Right. I mean, that is, that is fundamentally the absolute most important thing to do with any kind of relationship, but particularly the agency client relationship. And so I, while it is table stakes, I suppose. And so therefore, you know, as, as part of the question in the community, looking beyond that for other things, I think at first you need to make sure you’re doing that. So if you, if you’re not getting clear expectations, don’t worry about any of the other things that you can do for effective onboarding, because you got to get the expectations right to begin with. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, One of the things that we’ve seen, and part of the reason I created the PESO model is because so much of the work that we do takes time, and a lot of the work that we do isn’t tangible. And so we have always looked for ways to have really quick wins and to provide tangible results very quickly. So we can’t, if we’re doing media relations, we might not be able to get you stories placed in the first six months, but we can audit your content and create a content strategy. We can audit your social media networks and create a social media strategy. We can look at what you’re doing from a social media advertising or Google ads perspective and make some tweaks there. There are lots of things that you can do really quickly to provide some tangible results that help clients understand that you’re doing work leading up to the longer play stuff. So that’s what we always look at is what can we, what’s sort of the, I mean, this is a terrible term, but what’s the low hanging fruit that we can grab onto and get those quick wins really fast while we’re working on the more strategic longer term things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think the key is to find that low hanging fruit in a way where you can show the results, but also where you’re engaging the client team. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Chip Griffin: And I would say, but engaging just the right amount, right? I mean, it really is sort of the Goldilocks principle here. You don’t want to engage them so much that they’re like, Oh my God, they’re asking for so much for me, which I see a lot of agencies do. They go in and they’re like, they, they asked for this laundry list of resources and giant questionnaires and all that kind of stuff, you know, you’ve got to make sure that what you’re asking for is what you really need in the moment. But you do need to do that because otherwise they’re not having that interaction. You’re not learning how they work. They’re not seeing how you work. And so you need to do the right amount of that in order to be effective. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s really about you know, understanding how they work. I see a lot of agencies say, well, this is the process we use. This is the project management software we use. This is, you know, we won’t use Teams or Outlook or Microsoft documents. I think that’s a mistake. Our job is to make their jobs easier, and if you’re accustomed to G Suite and Zoom, which I am, going into a Microsoft environment is challenging, but I think it’s important to be able to do those things for the client to make things as easy as possible. So one of the first questions we ask is, usually you know, if they’re using teams or, or zoom, or if they’re using Microsoft or Google, but do you have a project management software that you prefer to use? Can we incorporate ourselves into that? I actually just had this conversation with somebody and they’re like, we still use spreadsheets. And I was like, okay, well, maybe we could. evolve to software so that we’re not using spreadsheets anymore. But so there are some caveats to that, right? But it’s really about under trying to integrate yourself into their process. What, when are their meetings that you can glom onto without having to have more meetings. Those kinds of things without being able to do the, do your job without giving them more work to do. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and look, I mean, I do think that it’s, it’s reasonable for you to suggest your solutions, but you can’t force your solutions. So if you do have a preferred project management thing, I’m okay with you saying to the client, typically we use this, does that work for you? Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And, and that’s fine, but telling them this is what we use, period. You need to adapt to us. That’s wrong. Your role as an agency is to serve the client. That doesn’t mean you need to just, you know, capitulate on absolutely everything. There are certainly, you know, bright lines that you don’t want to cross because it becomes unprofitable work or ineffective work. But you need to figure out what those really are and not just because, well, we always use zoom and I’m, I’m never using Teams. I mean, I’ll be honest. I hate Teams. Teams hates me. Teams logs me out all the time. It doesn’t let me use my camera correctly. It’ll shut my camera off in the middle of the, it does awful things to me. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So be it. If I have a client who uses Teams, I suck it up and I use Teams. Right? You just learn to deal with it. Gini Dietrich: Right. Right. Chip Griffin: That doesn’t mean that if I’m setting up the meeting, I’m probably not going to default to setting it up as Zoom unless they tell me that their organization can’t use Zoom for some reason, which some IT departments do block certain programs just for the heck of it, really, because, you know, IT guys like to do those things. Gini Dietrich: They do. It actually, as an aside, Scott Monty just posted on threads the other day, I have a meeting on Teams in two hours. So I’m going to log in now so I can be ready. It’s this big joke that it’s terrible. And yet people still use it as that was an aside, but Chip Griffin: it is what it is. But, but part of that onboarding process is to understand. You know, what are, what are their pain points? What are the things that they care about? And where do you need to adapt versus where you can simply work with the process that you prefer? And, and it is, there’s going to be give and take in this kind of relationship. It can’t just be, I mean, no side is going to quote unquote win everything, but you need to try to accommodate the client as much as possible and only push back if for some reason it’s going to cause a real problem, not just because it’s inconvenient or you don’t like it or that kind of thing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think going back to your setting clear expectations earlier, it, that’s really important too, because there are going to be things that are non negotiables for you, and there are going to be certain things that are non negotiables for them as well. And so understanding those at the beginning of the relationship helps to ensure that there’s smooth sailing going forward. So part of where we talk about our non-negotiables is in the very first meeting. You know, we don’t do this, this and this. We have to have access to your Google Analytics. We have to have access to your marketing automation software. We have to have access to your website. We have to have access to your social media accounts. If you’re not willing to give us access to those things, we can’t help you. So, setting those expectations and being very clear about them up front is going to help you in the long run. Chip Griffin: And by the way, if you’re asking for those things, you darn sure need be able to explain why you need that access and how you’re going to use it. Because again, I’ve seen a lot of agencies who just have a laundry list of things that they request, even if the particular project may not require that particular kind of access or what have you. So you need to make sure that particularly larger organizations that have IT departments and complicated rules and that kind of stuff. Don’t make the client go through the process. Don’t go through the process yourself if you’re not actually going to take advantage of what you’re getting access to. So make sure that you’re really targeting those requests appropriately and that you, whoever’s asking for it can explain why you need to have that particular access. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Don’t just listen to us and say, Oh, okay, I have to have access to all this stuff and then not know why. Chip Griffin: Right, because it’s, and it may not be for every project that you need it. There may be some projects where you’re doing work with a client where you simply don’t need to have access to their website or their Google Analytics or whatever. Probably in most cases you do, but make sure that there’s an actual reason for it and you can articulate that when someone says, Well, wait, why do you actually need that? What are you going to do with that information? And by the way, then you actually have to do what you say you’re going to do. So you don’t just say, well, we need it because it helps us to target effectively, and then six months later, you still haven’t accessed the Google analytics that you have access to. Right? That’s irresponsible. You’ve caused pain for the client for no good reason. And you need to remember that again, your job is to make the client’s life easier, not more difficult. And in large organizations, having access to these things inevitably causes heartburn on their side because they’ve got to go through some kind of process. They don’t because they don’t want to It’s not like dealing with a small business, like your own agency, where, oh sure, I’ll just go in, I’ll log in, I’ll give you access to Google Analytics. They probably have to fill out some form and go to some other department and get the access there, and then the IT department says, well, wait a minute, why do we get access to that? Right, right, right. What is this email address that has access? I don’t understand this, this, that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Don’t do it. Gini Dietrich: Yes. So, Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, I just wrote a blog post on growth hacking and granted it’s specific to PR firms. So keep, keep that in mind when we, when I talk about this, but I think it works across agencies overall, which is growth hacking or quick wins that you can get. And from a PR perspective, it’s things like creating a database or a bank of statistics that are specific to your industry or your organization that you can use in media relations. It’s having, it’s creating a small group of subject matter experts who will quickly respond to things that you need, like a quote for a journalist request or a quote for a blog post or a quick 30 second video that you’ll post on social media. Create that group, small group of people that are experts that you can use pretty consistently that will be that are willing to give you that time. Not everybody is. Build an employee advocacy program where you’re working with employees internally to not only understand what their wants, needs and desires are, but also how they will help you promote some of your work. So there are some things that you can do really quickly. Like I said, as you’re starting out so that you, it gives you a more runway to be able to strategically plan and do the things that you need to do the right way. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And I do want to offer a cautionary note on these quick wins though, because you need to be careful that in your zeal to show the client, just how effective you are, that you don’t empty your quiver of arrows too quick, because I see a lot of agencies that come out of the gate really strong and they’re doing lots of great stuff and they’re telling their team, Hey, let’s, you know, let’s bend over backwards. Let’s get everything we can for them. Let’s, you know, we, we got to show them these quick wins in order to, to make the relationship sticky. It needs to be a sustainable pace. Yeah. So if, if you exhaust every idea you have or every target outlet you get into in the first, you know, three to six months, now, what’s next. Right. So you need, you need to, yes, have those short term wins, but you need to have that longer term understanding of what your plan is. And it reminds me of a number of years ago, I was running a half marathon in DC. And I had not looked at the course map. In advance, because DC was a place I ran in all the time. I’m like, Oh yeah, I got this. And, and I thought I knew what the route was. Gini Dietrich: Oh no. Chip Griffin: And so I came out very strong, not realizing that this course took a weird hook up into some hills in DC. DC was largely flat. I thought this was going around the monuments, which I ran all the time. It was flat. And instead we all of a sudden made a turn and I’m like, Oh, Oh, there’s a hill here. I should have come out a lot more slowly. So I had a little more gas in the tank here to get up and through these hills in this part of DC. And so you need to be thinking about those kinds of things and making sure that you’re not coming out so fast and so strong that you either you can’t meet the expectations you’ve now created. Right. Even if they weren’t originally agreed to, and you also need to make sure that you’re not over servicing so much that if you maintain that pace, you can never do the work profitably. So it is a real balancing act to get this right in those early stages, because you need to show enough that it’s worth keeping you around, but not so much that you have nothing left to do. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So think about it like in phases, if you’re going to be doing a content marketing program for instance, then the first phase is doing a really strong content audit. This is what they have. This is what they need. This is where some gaps are. This is what we can refresh. This is what we can repurpose. And then presenting that to them within the first 30 days. That’s a quick win, but you’re going to use that. And it’s tangible, right? You’re going to use that to propel your content marketing program forward for many months, if not years. So doing it in phases and saying, okay, if we do this, it’s going to give us a quick win and something tangible to show them that we’re working, but it’s going to do this into the next phase. And then this phase we’ll do this into the next phase. So it allows you to do that without emptying your, all of your arrows. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think that’s just so vitally important because if you that we’ve talked about this before. If you start over servicing at any point, whether that’s during the onboarding phase or somewhere in the middle, it’s really difficult to walk that back. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so you really need to know what you’re actually putting in in terms of inputs so that you can control that in such a way that you’re still showing results but it is being done profitably. And and if for some reason you know that your process just requires this much extra work up front then you need to figure out how to message that to the client, either by charging an onboarding fee or say, one of the things I used to do was say for this kind of work, because it requires so much upfront, we do have a minimum commitment of time that we don’t usually have. Because I think everybody knows my general view is all agreements ought to be month to month. And they were generally speaking, but if I knew there was going to be a lot of front loaded work, I’d say, well, look, we need to have a minimum of three to six months or whatever the number was in order to make sure that we broke even. And so they understood that we would be doing more work in those early stages, but it would taper off. And so you need to be really crystal clear about these things. If for some reason your process requires a lot more upfront work so that the client doesn’t expect that you will keep up that pace for a long period of time afterwards. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really, I mean, it’s smart to look at how can we demonstrate results fairly quickly. How can we ensure that it’s a pace that we can keep up? How can we create trust and accountability quickly? That’s another one. How do we do this in a way that’s beneficial to both parties so that we can, can continue to grow together? Chip Griffin: Yeah, and the last thing I would add is communication, right? I mean, we talk all the time about how we are communicators and yet we are often bad at communicating. And, and so we need to be thinking about how we’re communicating these things to the client. Again, it’s that balancing act, you know, not too much, not too little. We need to make sure that it’s sustainable. We need to make sure that we understand how they prefer to be communicated with, because we’re not going to figure that out during the prospect phase. We’re going to figure that out during the on boarding. We may learn a little bit during the prospecting phase, but we’ve talked before about how prospecting is a really short actual level of interaction with the client. Now you’re onboarding. Now you need to figure out, how do they prefer? Do they prefer meetings? Do they prefer emails? Do they prefer Slack? What, how do they take that information and it may be different for different levels within that organization that you’re communicating with and so you need to figure those things out. How long does it take them to respond right? You can’t simply say, well, I’m going to communicate this to you and I expect a response within 24 hours, Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: If that’s not how they function, Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: A lot of large organizations, it takes a while for them to respond and no matter how much you say, well, who do you have to get approval from on it? They may not either want to tell you, or they may not, they may not even fully understand their own process anyway. So you just need to sort of observe things. And if you know that it takes three or four days for them to get back to you on a particular request, leave that amount of time to get the response. Don’t, don’t. Go to them and say, I need your response in 24 hours or this thing goes away, right? That can happen occasionally if the weird thing just pops up out of the blue, but you can’t be doing that every time. All the time. Yeah. You have to make sure that you’re understanding how they are communicating So that you are fitting in again to their system and their way of doing things not forcing them to do it your way Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think you’ll find, you know, as you do that, there’ll be peaks and valleys and give and go, and sometimes it’ll work and sometimes you’ll have to readjust and, you know, but it’s really about setting the expectations, being clear about it and giving them enough time in their process to be able to respond to you. Chip Griffin: Right. Because the last thing that you want them to do is feel that you are burdening them in any way that you’re spamming them, that you’re asking too much of them, that you’re not doing enough for them, that you, you need to be helpful and you need to be viewed as helpful and anything that you do that goes outside of that is going to threaten your successful onboarding. So keep that in mind that you are there to help, you are there to serve. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And the last thing I will say is that most companies hire agencies because they need the extra help and they need the extra thinking. And the bigger the company gets, the client gets. the more you find that their internal teams are really just project managers who understand the process internally and they’re not true comms or marketing professionals. So you are truly the expert and inserting yourself and your expertise into their process is one of the best things that you can do. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. You are at the end of the day, arms and legs. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: Like it or not. Gini Dietrich: It’s exactly right. Chip Griffin: And so on that note, we’re done being your arms and legs for today. Gini Dietrich: Oh boy. Sometimes you nail it and sometimes. Chip Griffin: No, sometimes I don’t. Today is one of those days where clearly a failure. Gini Dietrich: It’s because of your cold. Chip Griffin: Yeah, that’s right. Yes, that’s what I’m blaming it on, you know, the cold has gotten to my brain and Something I don’t know. Anyway, on that note we’re gonna draw this episode to a close because as often what happens we are going way off the rails I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m GIni Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends

#133 Gini Dietrich runs a successful PR agency, she is a prolific content creator, author, and the force behind an incredible blog Spin Sucks. She is also the person behind the PESO™ model of communication. If you want to do comms right in 2024 – you need to understand this model.    In this episode, Pat and Gini discuss:    ✅ The state of PR in 2024 ✅ The PESO™ model ✅ Running an agency ✅ How she goes about creating so much great content   Connect with Gini here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ginidietrich/   Connect with Pat, here: pmcgovern@ascedia.com If you like this pod, please take a minute and leave a review.  Your reviews are the green energy that powers this supertanker!  Thanks, for doing it – you're the best! Want more marketing insights? Take a look at our full lineup.  

In this episode, Chip and Gini dismantle the myth that agency management can rely on a one-size-fits-all approach. They emphasize the importance of understanding the diversity and unique needs of different types of agencies, such as PR, ad, and digital agencies. Chip and Gini discuss their experiences in various agency environments and highlight the influence of agency size and specialization on management strategies. They caution against blindly following advice from other agency owners or consultants without considering the specific context and needs of one's own agency. They also stress the importance of tailoring roles and titles to actual needs rather than fixed hierarchies, revealing the potential pitfalls of title inflation and focusing too narrowly on prescribed roles like account or project managers. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The irony is that in most agencies, an account manager doesn’t manage and an account executive is not an executive.” Gini Dietrich: “If you’re listening to advice, or you have the mindset that you have to fill roles like an account manager, a traffic manager, a project manager…that is the fastest way to zero profit.” Chip Griffin: “You need to personalize your approach based on what you’re trying to accomplish and what your specific needs are, not what you’ve heard some other peer or expert tell you.” Gini Dietrich: “In a PR firm, it’s typically the people who are doing the work that are also doing the account management, the client service, and the project management, management, making sure the work gets done.” Related Be smart about titles at your agency How small agencies can improve employee retention Setting expectations for raises and promotions at your agency Beware of the experts View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, today is a one size fits all day. We’re going to talk about how every agency is exactly the same. And all you have to do is go through a simple checklist and you’ll know how to manage your business successfully. Gini Dietrich: Man, that’s going to make life so much easier. Awesome. Yes, Chip Griffin: it is. I mean, you know, it’s, it is nice that it’s just all about a simple formula. No real thought involved. Gini Dietrich: Okay. I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, yeah. Chip Griffin: Well, I think in all seriousness, I think one of the challenges that agency leaders have these days is there are a lot of resources out there. There’s this podcast. There are plenty of other podcasts like it. There are lots of articles. There are YouTube channels. There are books and a lot of it is framed as we do here in terms of agencies, right? The Agency Leadership Podcast. We don’t specify what kind of agency. As we talk, it becomes more clear, you know, where our general knowledge is. And so therefore where our general slant is, but on the surface, we’re just talking about agencies and there are a lot of other really smart people out there who are talking about agencies and giving you advice. The problem is that not every agency is the same. There are small agencies, there are large agencies, there are PR agencies, there are ad agencies, there are digital agencies. There are all these different permutations of it and understanding and trying to figure out how that all fits and how to understand the advice you’re being given is different. And so you need to appreciate that those differences exist and understand the advice you’re getting where it’s coming from. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I, I mean, yes, and, and you’re right. That it’s not a one size fits all, unfortunately, and having worked both in a large global PR firm where it was all PR and having worked in an ad agency where we were building a PR department. They, they work completely different. They have different structures of teams. They have a production department. They have an account management client service department. They have creative, they have copywriting, they have art and graphic design. And, you know, we have pR. So that simplifies it, but that’s, that’s generally how it works. So I think you’re right, depending on the agency and depending on the expertise that you provide is going to help you craft sort of the organizational model or chart around the types of people that you hire. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And so when, when you’re out there and you’re consuming this advice, if you’re, if you’re listening to us, you know, that our background is primarily in PR, marketing communications, PESO model type agencies. Do we have other experience? Yes. I run a digital agency. I’ve got a lot of other experiences. We can talk about those things as well, but most of our advice is centered on those PR, marcoms, PESO agency types. And so. There are others out there who you’ll go and they’ll say, well, you know, an account manager should do this or that, or you should have a project manager. Most PR agencies aren’t going to follow that same advice for what an account manager should do. Most PR agencies aren’t going to even have a project manager. There are some smart people in the agency world who will talk about the, how important it is to have a traffic manager. Most PR agency owners don’t even know what a traffic manager is. So, so I will have them say, you know, I was listening to such and such a podcast and they were talking about how valuable a traffic manager is. What’s a traffic manager? Do I need one? No, you don’t. No, because you’re running a different kind of business. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And so it’s the same thing. You have a lot of the folks who run the high volume agencies, the SEO PPC type agencies, they’ll be out there talking about how, oh, you need a VA, you need a salesperson. And for those kinds of agencies, those kinds of things can work. For most PR and Marcoms agencies, not so much. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. I think there are some exceptions to the rule for sure. You know, because we have, I’ve crafted my agency around the PESO model, we have core expertise in paid or in shared and owned media. And because of that, we do have a project manager, but I think we got Gosh, 15 or maybe 18 employees before, before we hired him. So even still, you know, you still had everybody managing the client. There was one, there is one point of contact before we hired the project manager. There was one point of contact for each client account. And then all the earned media or all the media types fell into that. But usually the point of contact was doing something like content owned media or earned media. Whatever was most important to the client, and then they were sort of the ones running it. So the point is, is that in a PR firm, it’s typically the people who are doing the work that are also doing the account management, the client service, and the project management, management, making sure the work gets done. Chip Griffin: And the roles, even within, as you point out, the, a PR or Marcoms agency. Based on your size, things are going to change. So it’s, it’s not even just about the kind of agency you are. It’s the size, right? That at five or 10 people, a PR agency is going to be almost exclusively generalists. You’ll have people who have a little bit of extra ability on the writing side, maybe a little bit extra on the media relations side, but you’re not going to have the, the well defined structures. I mean, when I worked in, in large agencies, we had an entire writing department, we had an entire creative department, right? And those, that made sense. At five or 10 employees, that doesn’t make sense for most of you out there. You don’t want to have two people who are nothing but writers. And, you know, cause they’re probably not going to have enough work to fill 40 hours a week each. And so you need to be thoughtful about those. And as you, as you hear some of these things, and as you talk to other agency owners about how they’re set up, you need to appreciate how, how is what they’re doing the same or different from what you’re doing so that you can draw the right conclusions for the structure that you want to put in place with your team. Gini Dietrich: The other mistake I see, especially PR firm agency owner, PR firm owners making is that there’s sort of a hierarchy traditionally, especially at the large firm. So you start as an account coordinator, you go to assistant AE, then to executive, account executive, senior AE. Account supervisor, managing supervisor, VP, SVP and on. Like that’s typically the, the organizational chart. And what I see agency owners, the mistake I see them making is they say, okay, well I have to hire an account coordinator and I have to hire an AAE and I have to hire an AE and they, they, they sort of fit people into that and they try to fit people into that process or that organizational structure without looks, taking a step back and looking at what they really need. Maybe you need somebody with like five to seven years of experience and they might need an account supervisor or management supervisor title, but you, because they only have five to seven years of experience, you want them in that AE or SAE level. And that’s just not the case. So I think you have to really step back and go, Okay, hang on a second. What kind of work needs to be done? How many years of experience do I need for the person to have? And what kind of titles are they looking for? You know, for us, as I was building my agency, I looked for people who had the experience I need and I sort of let them dictate the title. And in some cases it bit them in the butt a little bit because I, I remember a couple of times people were like, Oh, I really want to be chief content officer. I really want to be vice president. And they didn’t have enough experience, but titles didn’t matter to me. So I was like, okay, you can be chief content officer. I don’t care. And then they went to get another job. And from an ego perspective, got quote unquote demoted like two or three titles. They didn’t get demoted in terms of pay or anything like, core responsibilities, but from their perspective, they were demoted in terms of titles. So I also think you have to think about those kinds of things and have those honest conversations. Like I’m totally cool making you a chief content officer. If that’s what you, if that’s the title you want, but know that when, if, and when you leave us, you’re probably not going to get that same title. So should we think about what that might look like for your career path in general, not just at this agency. And some people are agreeable and some people are not, and that’s up to you. But I think the important thing is like figuring out what skillset you need and the years of experience that you need, and then work them into a title that way versus trying to follow that pattern. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, I mean, certainly thinking about, you know, we’ve talked about career progressions and title paths and, you know, and all that kind of thing in the past, but you know, one of the things to think about, it’s not just how it impacts their career going forward. If you have title inflation, it’s also what, what your flexibility is in restructuring your own business because you want to be careful about giving someone a title that’s, that’s so large that it’s hard to layer them down the road, if you need to. Gini Dietrich: That’s a great point. That’s a really great point. Chip Griffin: So if you’ve got some of the chief content officer, I mean, about the only thing you can layer them with is a chief operating officer or CEO or president or something like that. There’s not much else that you have that you can logically at least, you know, make them subservient to in a way that doesn’t, you know, feel weird. Right. I mean, you don’t have a chief content officer report to a vice president or something like that typically. And so you want to be thoughtful about those. But as we’re thinking about titles, you know, that’s another area. Even if you compare PR agencies and you look at their title structures, the most junior title for all of them is likely going to be different. Yeah. Right. Some, I’m a junior person as an account coordinator. A lot, it’s account executive. A lot, it’s account manager. Yep. The irony is that in most agencies, an account manager doesn’t manage and an account executive is not an executive. Right? Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Those are the common titles. Uh huh. But I’ve, I’ve been involved with agencies where an account executive was senior to an account manager. And I’ve been ones where an account manager is senior to an account executive. So, you know, it’s one of the reasons why salary surveys are so problematic in this field, because if I’ve got an account manager, and particularly when you’re looking across different kinds of agencies, right, because in an ad agency, an account manager is actually a fairly senior experienced person who’s managing the relationship. In most PR agencies, an account manager isn’t that senior, isn’t running the, the, the actual relationship. They may manage the day to day of the project, but it’s, it’s typically going to be someone senior to them who’s actually quote unquote, owns the relationship with the client and that, and that’s the person who’s responsible for growing the account and retaining the account. It’s not the account manager themselves. Now that, but that can be different, right? Cause it depends on how you structure your own agency. And so you need to be careful as you’re hearing, even us talk, because we’ll use it based on our own experience and how we’ve structured things, but it may not be the same as what you’re doing. And so you want to look at the big picture lessons you can take as opposed to, oh, well, I was told that I, you know, I should have an account manager who’s out, you know, and it’s their job to, to grow accounts. If it’s someone two years out of college, I’m not going to say it’s their responsibility to grow the account. Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: That doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not their job to come up with big picture strategy. I mean, should they be able to manage day to day stuff? Yes, absolutely. Bigger stuff? I mean, you can’t just hand that off to someone junior most of the time. Gini Dietrich: Right. Totally agree with that. You know, it’s kind of like, I’ll say to a client, they’ll say, Oh yeah, I think that my 15 year old kid can handle social media. And I’m like, do you want your 15 year old kid to go golfing with your number one client without you? No, no, you don’t. So why would you let them talk externally to your customers and prospects? Like same thing, right? You don’t, you’re, you’re not going to expect your junior level employee to do that. Those kinds of things. Can they be in the meetings? For sure. Can they observe and listen? Absolutely. Should they be the one in charge of it? No freaking way. So the other thing I would advise is really you know, pay attention to what every, you know, all everybody advises, of course, but talk to other agency owners and understand like this is the world in which we live. And the, this is the type of person I’m looking for. And these are the types of titles they may or may not have. So you can talk to other agency owners and say, Hey, listen, what do you call your, your person who handles media relations at like five to seven years of experience or three to five or eight to 10 or whatever happens to be. And you’ll probably get, if you talk to five different agency owners, you’ll probably get five different answers, but it’ll at least give you an idea of, okay, If we’re thinking about this and I want to flip myself into that process, then where, where does it make me most comfortable? And so you start to look at it and really understand. You know, SAGA is a great place for that. You have a Slack community. The Spin Sucks community is probably about half agency owners. You can do that. PRSA has Counselor’s Academy, which is all agency owners. You can, you know, join that. So there are lots of places where you can just ask that question, and understand what titles are being used for different levels and different types of experience so that you can start to figure out, okay. And like I said, you may have get five different answers from five different agency owners, but it gives you enough basis and foundation to understand this is how I’m going to structure it and give you enough to be able to do that. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. I mean, you can learn so much from those things. And, you know, I would also say try to avoid fixating too much on titles. Focus on what the actual role is, what they’re doing. So as you’re, as you’re asking people, about, you know, how they’re structured, what they have, you know, for things, understand what those people actually do. Because before, you know, if you hear someone say you should have a project manager, cool, sit down and actually ask them, what does that person do? And then think about your own agency and put together a job description for what that person would do on a day to day basis. And then figure out, will it actually help to have this person? Can you get this in one individual? Or have you actually described a unicorn that’s actually three different specialist positions rolled into one and your odds of finding it are going to be tiny? Is it something that you need, but you only need 10 hours a week. And so it’s going to have to be rolled into something else because you can’t, or you’re going to find someone to do it part time because you don’t have 40 hours a week to fill it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And, and I think when you start doing those things and you start actually sitting down and asking yourself those tough questions about what is this person actually going to do? How do they fit in with the rest of the mix? That’s where you start to figure out whether it fits or not. And, and I, I hate to harp on VAs, but VAs are one of those things that a lot of agency coaches out there will tell you, Oh, it’s a lifesaver to have a VA. For most of you, it isn’t. Because for most of you, you’re not doing that much actual admin stuff. And so if you’re, if you’re not spending hours and hours a day doing admin stuff, then first of all, what you’re looking for is not truly a VA. You’re just looking for a contractor to do something else. And even then you need to figure out what can they actually take off of your plate. Because so often when I’ve talked with folks who are looking at hiring a VA, they tell me, here’s what they can do. And it’s, it may, you know, it’s, it’s maybe two or three hours a day, but the amount of time it will take them is half of that to manage it. So if you’re spending an hour and a half to manage getting three hours off your plate, what’s the point? Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: So there is a time and place for all of these different roles. It may not be at five people. It may not be at 10 people. It may not even be a 20 or 25. It may be further down the road. It may be if you add a different kind of services to your point, if you start doing the full PESO model, yes, you’re going to start to need some specialists because it’s hard to have someone who has all of the different specialties in the PESO model, you know, in their, under their own hat. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, Chip Griffin: they exist, but they are unicorns. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I found that out pretty quickly as we were building the agency around that, you know, 10 years ago, almost no one can do all four. So you, you do have to find specialists. And I will tell you that as we were doing it, you know, we didn’t have full time people that were focused on each. We had contractors and, you know, we brought them in as needed. And eventually we got to the point where we needed full time people under each media type, but it took us, Gosh, six or seven years to get there. So you, the same goes for you. You know, if you’re looking for a specialist, doesn’t have to be a full time employee either. Chip Griffin: Right, because you, it all comes back to understanding what your objectives are, what you need from a resource perspective, and then figuring out how you get there. If you, if you approach it from the, well, I’m told that I need to have account managers doing this and I need to have project managers to do that. And I need a traffic manager and all these different things. You don’t, you shouldn’t be starting with those titles. You shouldn’t be starting with thinking the roles of the big picture. You should start looking at the individual tasks that need to be accomplished and figure out who can do that on your current team, who has the bandwidth, who has the capability. If they don’t have either of those or one of those, then do you need to hire someone who has that ability? Do you need to find a contractor? Do you need to find a partner agency to work with? Whatever it may, there’s a lot of different ways to solve it, but you need to understand what your actual need is, as opposed to latching onto the notion of, a project manager or an account manager or a sales rep or whatever. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I would say that if, if you’re listening to, or you have the mindset that you have to fit, find roles like that, we have to find an account manager. We have to do this. We have to do that. That is the fastest way to zero profit. And I speak from experience. So don’t do that. Take, take Chip’s advice and really look at what it is. What is it that we need? Who is it that can fill that role? And if we have any gaps, can we fill in with contractors for five or 10 hours a week to, to do that? Chip Griffin: Right. And, and understand the perspectives are going to be entirely different based on the experiences of the person sharing that, whether that’s a fellow agency owner or a coach or consultant like us or something else. We all have our own experiences. We’re all speaking about a specific kind of agency, which is a subset of all agencies. And if you understand that those things are different and you understand that your agency, even if you’re a five person PR agency, you’re not the same as every other five person PR agency. And so you really need to personalize your approach based on what you’re trying to accomplish and what your specific needs are, not what you’ve heard some other peer or expert tell you. Gini Dietrich: This is for sure. Yes, because your PR firm may be completely, you focus completely on media relations. So that’s completely different than my PR firm that doesn’t. So you also just have to, it’s a great point. You have to think about what the perspective of is of the person that’s giving you the advice. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And it’s not one size fits all, you know, we’ll, we’ll share our perspective, take our perspective, keep listening to us, digest it, figure out what’s useful to you and where we’re just full of hot air and feel free to stop listening at that point. But you’ve been listening all the way through to the way through, Gini Dietrich: that’s right. Chip Griffin: And we appreciate that. So that brings us to the end of this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the pros and cons of using LinkedIn for agency growth and professional engagement. They touch upon the challenges of spam and overautomation, and emphasize the importance of personalized, thoughtful interactions. They also share strategies for repurposing content, such as tailoring blog posts to different audiences when posting on LinkedIn. They address the increased use of LinkedIn direct messages for networking and provide insights on effective commenting. Additionally, they briefly discuss the appropriateness of political posts on LinkedIn and recommend focusing on values rather than partisan views. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Writing LinkedIn comments that are thoughtful and interesting are going to be so much more effective than having AI summarize the content for you and write the comment. Please don’t do that.” Chip Griffin: “LinkedIn works best like most social platforms when you’re being genuine and and authentic.” Gini Dietrich: “If you’re going to produce new content on LinkedIn, I love the idea of testing out a topic or an idea. Or repurpose other content, and you really only have to do something once a week.” Chip Griffin: “LinkedIn direct messages should be from one human to another human. Period. Stop.” Related How agencies can get the most out of LinkedIn (featuring Chuck Hester) How agencies can use LinkedIn ads to grow their businesses (featuring Anthony Blatner) The future of events and other agency biz dev tactics View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, you know, I think maybe I’ll just start sending you direct messages on LinkedIn from now on. That’s the only way I’ll communicate with you. Gini Dietrich: Awesome. Well, that’s one way. Chip Griffin: It’s one way. Gini Dietrich: I might not get back to you immediately. Chip Griffin: The problem is, I was going to say, if you respond to me, I probably will not see, cause I get so much spam in my LinkedIn direct messages that I very rarely actually look at them. And usually as soon as I do, I will tell whoever legitimate is reaching out to me that I do want to talk to. Here’s my email address. Send me an email. We can, we can pick it up over there. Cause you’ll get a much more timely response. Gini Dietrich: Do you accept all LinkedIn connection requests? Chip Griffin: I do not. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: I used years ago I used to do that, but then I got flooded with just a bunch of junk and, and nowadays so many spammers are, I mean, just obvious spammers are many are trying to connect many. So at this point, I, I’m looser than I used to be in that I don’t only connect with people who I actually know. I will also connect with agency owners, for example, if they’re, they appear to be, you know, operating a legitimate agency and not one who’s trying to spam me. Sometimes I guess wrong. And then all of a sudden I’ve opened up my inbox to nonsensical pitches, but most of the time I’m pretty good at guessing. So yeah, it’s tough. LinkedIn is a great platform, and these days it’s one of the few where you can actually communicate professionally because X/Twitter has sort of, well, not sort of, it has deteriorated. It’s become sort of a little bit of business and lots of cesspool. Gini Dietrich: Definitely a dumpster fire. Chip Griffin: So, you know, as useful as it used to be, it is not useful today. So I thought it’d be helpful if we talked about LinkedIn and, and thought about how are agencies using it? How can agencies use it? Not so much on behalf of their clients, but on behalf of themselves, growing their business, learning, all that kind of thing. And, and I think there are some do’s and don’ts. I think we can share some things from our experience that we’ve seen work and that we have seen not work so much and things that frankly irritate us. We’ll, we’ll certainly mix those things in. Gini Dietrich: Of course, because we’re not us without it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, if we didn’t complain about something, people, people would think that they were listening to a different podcast. So plenty of plenty of whine with this episode. Gini Dietrich: Plenty of whine. We love to whine. You know, there was actually a Spin Sucks community discussion about this. And somebody had posted, are you using LinkedIn in a way that’s different from your content on the blog or is it the same? And I think it started a really nice conversation because I think, you know, to our tagline, it depends, right? You know, for me, I do use the same content, but what I do is I, I write first for PR firm or PR professionals, communicators, because that’s our target audience on the Spin Sucks side. And so that’s, that’s who I write for first. But then when I repost usually about two months later to LinkedIn. I rejigger the content to be focused on the business leader. So while I might talk about with a PR professional, I might talk about the things that you should do to prepare your CEO to speak out on politics or to take a stance on their values. I’ll rejigger that content so that it’s to the business leader to talk about here are the things that you should be thinking about. So it’s, I don’t have to do a complete rewrite, but I do have to switch it up a little bit to be more focused on the audience there. I have seen some like Martin Waxman and Andy Crestodina. They both create content for their blogs and then just do a complete repurpose on LinkedIn. Same day that it’s published to the blog, it’s publishes to LinkedIn and it’s the same content. Different audiences, maybe not the same subscribers. There might be some overlap, but I think that they’re just doing a complete, complete, like just copy and paste essentially. So I think there are pros and cons and it depends on your audiences, right? If your audience for the blog is the same as the audience in LinkedIn, then that probably makes sense. But if it’s not, then you should think about who your audience is for both places. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think sometimes it can make sense to split them even if it is a similar audience because then you can have an opportunity to have another bite at the apple, right? So if you post to your blog and someone is busy that week or on vacation or something like that, And then you post in on LinkedIn, you know, three, four weeks later or a month or two later. Well, now, now they’ve, they’ve got another opportunity to see it. So I, I think personally that there is some value in splitting out content. The place where I don’t do that is with my newsletter. So with, with my email newsletter, I do match that with LinkedIn. Usually LinkedIn is a little bit delayed by half a day or so, from the, the email. Honestly, that’s more because I post manually to LinkedIn and we’ve, scheduled with email so so that timing really depends on what my day looks like on Fridays when I when I post it and occasionally I don’t get to it doesn’t go up till Saturday because it’s a manual post. But you know, I do think that repurposing content in some fashion is beneficial. The other thing that I do is I will test things on LinkedIn. So I will, I will write a shorter version or something that I’m thinking about writing a longer piece on and just kind of throw it out there, see if it gets any reaction. If it doesn’t get any, that doesn’t, doesn’t mean necessarily I won’t pursue it, but if it gets a strong reaction lots of feedback, then it makes it much more likely I, I bubble it up higher in my queue to do a full article on. Gini Dietrich: That’s a really good idea. That’s, that’s a good best practice. I think for agencies. There are some people who are doing a really nice job there. I think, you know, there it, There are some that I started out thinking they were doing a nice job, but then it got to be overwhelming because it was multiple times a day or at least daily, which I think is too much because the algorithm isn’t like the other places where it’s showing you people you don’t know. The algorithm on LinkedIn is still showing you people, you know, which is great. Or people that you follow, which is great. That’s, that’s what it should do. But it also gives you content from those same people. Quite a lot. And you’re just the, every time you, every time I open LinkedIn, there’s one person there all the time. Like you’re smart, but I don’t need to see you 25 times a day. Chip Griffin: I think I know who that is, but I will, I will let that, I’ve, I’ve actually got a couple of those who are multiple times a day posters. And so my feed tends to be fairly inundated with them all, not necessarily always in a timely fashion. I think, you know, right now, the, as we record this, the, the LinkedIn algorithm seems to prefer not more than one post a day, as far as actually getting, broad distribution. And I can tell you from looking at my own numbers, that it seems to be anecdotally backed up that that on days where I do more than one, they both suffer or all of them. Interesting. If I do more than than two. You know, that said, LinkedIn will keep posts around for a fairly long period of time. Gini Dietrich: It does. Yep. Chip Griffin: So, you know, I don’t necessarily think you even need to be certainly I don’t think you need to post multiple times a day. I think if you’ve got the urge to be creating that much content on LinkedIn, that’s fine. But but do the other things as comments, because those will also bubble up in feeds. Gini Dietrich: They do bubble up. Chip Griffin: Which which you have the added benefit that you’re engaging with someone else who’s got a different audience than you do. So your folks will still see it because it will say Chip Griffin commented on. And so they’re still seeing your thoughts. They’re still seeing you being active. And so to me, my advice would be if you want to be that active on LinkedIn, that’s great. Just use it in the comment field as opposed to creating fresh posts, you know, every two hours. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I will say, though, on the comments that I have noticed this on my own content that there are a certain number of agencies, a handful of agencies who have maybe said to their team, somebody on their team, you’re in charge of LinkedIn and I got advice to be commenting on content. So I’d like you to read these people and then comment on their content as the agency. Nothing wrong with that. However, there are some that are having AI analyze the content, provide a synopsis, and then write the comment. And as the person who is receiving the comment, I can tell that that’s what’s happening. I know every single time if that’s what’s happened. And quite honestly, it makes your agency look dumb. Like it doesn’t, it doesn’t provide any value. It doesn’t provide any thought leadership. It doesn’t provide any value. And there’s no ability for us, for us to engage because it’s literally a robot who is, who has created it. So I will say that if you take the extra time to write a thoughtful comment that allows for engagement, especially on content where, you know, it’s, it’s an influencer that’s going to do business with you. It’s a journalist. It’s, a prospect, somebody who you’d love to do work with. Writing comments that are thoughtful and interesting are going to be so much more effective than having the AI summarize the content for you and write the comment. Please don’t do that. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, look, LinkedIn works best like most of most social platforms when you’re being genuine and and authentic to overuse that that term that’s been around for as long as social media has been. And so you need to be directly engaging with people in a way that you’re able to demonstrate what you actually think and who you actually are. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I mean, it’s okay to, to show a bit of your personality. So if you see my comments on LinkedIn, there’s probably going to be a little bit of snark, sarcasm, and humor in there because that’s generally what I do. And so if I don’t have that, you know, then I’m probably too tired that day to put that effort in who knows. But, but it, it shouldn’t read like AI. It shouldn’t be something you have an intern do. It should be something that you ae doing personally. Even if that means you do a lot less of it, because it really is about the quality of it not the quantity of it. And speaking of quantity, these, these folks who like to spam tag people in their posts, right? Where they, they put together a post and they, and there are two ways. There’s the really awful way, which is at the end, they, they post like three paragraphs and at the end, they just have a long list of people that they’re tagging. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: That I find to be utterly obnoxious. Yes. And, and it, and 100% agree, and, and I, 99.9% of the time will not take the bait. If I get tagged, I will not comment. I will, I will ignore you. Just stop it. Other people will do it where they, they tag a bunch of people, but it’s in the, they do it in the text like, well, you know, Chip said this and Gini said that, and Yep, yep. Okay. If it, if it actually fits. Okay. But, but don’t, I don’t see the need to just chalk it full of it. I mean, sometimes I will, I will share as I did actually over the weekend. I, I shared an article that Sharon Torek wrote on classification of independent contractors and I tagged her in that because that’s the right thing to do. She had a great resource. I was pointing the resource out and directing people to it. That makes sense. Now, if I had done that and then tagged every other lawyer in the agency field or every other HR person in the agency field, I mean, to me, that would be silly and not productive. So be thoughtful about it. Absolutely tag people when it’s relevant, but don’t just tag people so that you, you know, hope to trick the algorithm or bait people into commenting or whatever. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I’m, I’m the same way where I’m just like, Oh, come on, really? And then you read the comment or the content and you’re like, I don’t know why you tagged me in this. Right. Ah! Yes. Right. Yeah, it’s playing on their audience, which I think is shady. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, and occasionally if you’re trying to be provocative, you know, you know that, I don’t know, you know that I’m opposed to RFPs, you post something, you know, pro RFP, and then you tag me, you know, so what do you think? I don’t love that either, but at least it makes, it kind of makes sense in that context. And, and sometimes I will take the bait on that because I, you know, I can’t help that. Gini Dietrich: Can’t help yourself? Chip Griffin: No, I can’t help myself. Gini Dietrich: Now everyone knows the secret. Just post that RFPs are great. Chip Griffin: Yeah, there you go. Anyway, please don’t do that. Gini Dietrich: I’ll give you a list of things you could post about and tag him. Chip Griffin: It’s probably better to give them a list of things that won’t get me riled up because I am, I am easily provoked. In any case, so, so speaking of being provoked and, and, you know, not necessarily being thoughtful in what you post, let’s talk about politics. And I don’t mean, let’s actually talk about politics, but should people be talking about politics on LinkedIn? Cause I, I mean, I have seen a lot more political posts in my LinkedIn feed in the past few months than probably my entire history of being on LinkedIn. I mean, political stuff used to be relegated to primarily to Twitter, maybe a little bit on Facebook, but LinkedIn was pretty much a, a politics and religion free zone. And it, it seems like it is perhaps because Twitter has its issues, people have decided that, well, might as well share it here. Or maybe it’s the people are buying into this whole concept that people want to know what companies think, which I think is rubbish, by the way. I don’t think people want to know what companies think on issues. Gini Dietrich: I think, I think that this is probably a topic for a different day. I think that people want to understand i if I am pro choice. I want to understand if you are donating money to anti abortion organizations. I think that people do want to know that. And I see this with the kids a lot where they’re like, I’m not gonna, they won’t go to Chick-fil-A. They will not go to Chick-fil-A because they understand that it does not support their values. Doesn’t matter how good their french fries are. These kids will not go to Chick-fil-A. That’s neither here nor there. What I think the challenge is, is you can talk about things that are happening in the world without making it political. So instead of like, Sticker Mule, who a couple of weeks ago sent an email saying, Oh, everybody’s mad because Trump’s a bad guy and I don’t think he’s a bad guy. I think that we should be able to support him and go Trump and here, buy a t shirt. That’s not the right way to do it. If you want to talk about the fact that there was an assassination attempt on him and that we should call for unity, and this is the way that our country is divided as ridiculous, that’s a different message, but saying that I support Trump and I’m scared to say that because I think people are going to come after me is not the right message. So when you think about, and this is, this goes for your clients too. Like when you think about how you’re going to position it, think about it less from a political standpoint and more from a, it’s a value or it’s a stance or it’s like the, the issue. Like I’m against climate change. And I think we should do X, Y and Z. I’m against guns and I think that we should have gun control because of X, Y and Z. So it’s less about the politics and more about the issues. I think that some people do it well, and some people don’t. Sticker Mule’s a great example of not doing it well at all. Chip Griffin: So, so I, I, I think we should add this to our list of topics for a future conversation, talking more about politics generally and, and what agencies should do, how they should advise clients, that kind of stuff. Because I, even though our own politics here are somewhat meshed, I, I think that, my views of how you can talk about politics and whether you should talk about politics may be a bit different than most people. So I, I think that’s probably a worthwhile conversation and out of the corner of my eye I can see you already typing it into our, our shared Google Doc where we have topics. So, but, but I think when it comes to LinkedIn, I, I think you do need to be careful about talking about politics, period, because it’s, it is not the conventional thing to discuss on politics or, to discuss on LinkedIn. So if you are going to do it, you need to be really thoughtful about it, because it is, it, it jumps out at you a lot more when you see it there. Sure. And, and so the reactions are likely to be stronger as a result. If you see someone commenting on politics on Twitter, you’re like, of course, that’s that’s what they do. And maybe you kind of move on. You see it on LinkedIn. And if you disagree with it, in particular, you are likely to have an even stronger reaction, I think, than if you saw the exact same thing posted by the exact same person on another platform. So just be mindful of that, if you’re going to talk about politics on LinkedIn. So in general, I would encourage you not to. I don’t, I don’t think unless it is core to your business, like if you’re running an advocacy firm or something, advocacy agency, of course, sure. Talk about politics, right? I mean, that’s, that’s your key audience, but really think about whether your audience wants to be hearing you chatting about politics on, on LinkedIn. So that would be my general advice there, but… Gini Dietrich: I think generally I would agree with that. Chip Griffin: But we can look at the topic more broadly as well in a future episode, because I think, particularly as we get deeper into political season here in the U. S., how we’re acting as agencies and leaders and how we’re advising our clients, you know, we need to be thoughtful about that, too, because there are a lot of things to take into consideration. But back to LinkedIn. So, you know, the other area that we haven’t, we started the conversation here was on direct messaging on LinkedIn. And so, you know, how do you, how do you go about using direct messages properly on LinkedIn? Gini Dietrich: So I’ve actually noticed a big increase in DMing with journalists on LinkedIn, which has never happened. And probably in the last 30 or 45 days, I’ve gotten more requests there via DM from journalists than anywhere else. So I would say number one, pay attention to that, especially for PR firms, because that seems to be where people are going. I also read a Columbia Journal, Journalism Institute article that said they’re going to Reddit as well. So that’s another thing, but that’s not the topic of today. But I’ve seen a big increase in that. I’ve seen, seen a big increase in, inviting like guests for podcasting and things like that., And I’ve seen a gigantic increase in, we can, and we’ve talked about this before, we can get you 10 to 12 new clients a month. Can we set that up for you? Like, no, I don’t want 10 to 12 new clients a month. No, stop it. I mean, I probably get 10 of those a day. A day, which is crap. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, and my favorite is I haven’t heard back from you on this. And you get that more in email because LinkedIn, at least if it’s in mail, you can’t hit someone repeatedly. Email, I get it all the time where people will follow up a few days later. I haven’t heard back from you on this yet. You’re not gonna, cause it’s a dumb ass request and I’m not paying any attention to it. You know, the same thing people want to be guests on this podcast on something that’s not even related to agencies. A, we have never had a guest we’ve been doing this for six years now. We have never had a single guest. So don’t pitch me on get, and by the way, if you’re going to make it relevant to agencies, at least. Gini Dietrich: I got one yes this morning that was, I, I stopped by your facility over the weekend and noticed you could use a cleaning crew. Oh, did you now? Chip Griffin: Cleaning services are all, it’s unbelievable. Who is out there that’s running these janitorial service campaigns that spam people? Because I get it on every email account for all of my businesses right now. I mean, do you need janitors? No, I don’t have an office For any of the businesses I don’t care what and the funny thing is I will get like three of them in a row because I have multiple websites for the different businesses and they all get spammed at the same time Come on guys, this is just stupid Please stop it, knock it off. But if you’re going to do direct messaging, then make sure that you are also making it clear that it is actually a personalized message. So by the way, make sure it’s personalized message. Please, dear God, do not hire these agencies that do it for you. And I’m sorry to any of you agencies out there who may be listening. Please do not run direct messaging campaigns on LinkedIn. LinkedIn direct messages should be from one human to another human. Period. Stop. Just knock it off. It is, LinkedIn is a very inconvenient platform for doing direct messaging on. In fact, if someone messaged me on LinkedIn, I always just say, email me. Here you go. Here’s my email address. I’m happy. I’m like, publish my email address online. It’s not hard to find me. Let’s move it over there because I will be able to respond to you in a more timely fashion. I will not miss messages. If you send it on LinkedIn, I miss them because there’s so much spam in there. I don’t look at them very often. Yeah. It’s hard to mark something for follow up. You know, if it comes into my inbox, I just flag it and say, okay, I can’t respond right now, but I’ll respond at the end of the day or tomorrow morning. Whenever I’m doing my next batch of responses. You can’t do that on LinkedIn. The same reason I don’t accept text messages from anybody. I don’t even give anybody a real text number. Okay, you have the real text number. Fine. I, I, as soon as I started saying it, I could see the gears churning in your head. You were going to, you were going to brag about the fact that you were one of like five people who has my actual real text number. Gini Dietrich: In fairness though, it did take six years to get it. Chip Griffin: Would you like to share with listeners why you got it? We’ll tell that story another day. Gini Dietrich: I would like, I would, I will definitely tell that story another day. Yes. Chip Griffin: In any case, so do we have other advice on LinkedIn while we’re at it or should we just? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s don’t be, don’t be gross. Don’t use AI to write your comments. If you’re going to produce new content there, I love the idea of testing out, you know, a topic or an idea. Just as a short post that you discussed in doing that. Repurpose other content, and you really only have to do something once a week. It doesn’t have to be every day. Chip Griffin: Right. For fresh content. I mean, I think youshould be on there every day, commenting, liking, doing things like that. And from a networking perspective, a business development perspective, it’s fantastic because when you hit like on a post, what happens? That person gets a notification. When you comment, what happens? That person gets a notification. When you tag them, they get a notification. You can write recommendations. They get a notification. They get a warm, fuzzy feeling. There are so many things that you can do with LinkedIn to just stay on someone’s radar. And it doesn’t require a lot of, I mean, literally just hitting like. If you’ve got people who you would like to work with, just periodically hit like on one of their posts. I mean, it’s so simple and yet it will keep your name out there. So that they’re like, Oh, right. Gini Dietrich: It’s a great idea. Chip Griffin: Keep it simple. Keep it simple. You don’t, it doesn’t need to be really complicated. Gini Dietrich: Yep. I like it. Chip Griffin: All right. Well, we’ll keep it really simple and draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

This week on the Hello Frances Podcast, our host Shantelle Dedicke is joined by Gini Dietrich, Founder of Spin Sucks, creator of the acclaimed PESO Model. They delve into the creation of the PESO Model, how this framework shapes effective public relations strategies, how it empowers agencies to demonstrate their impact to clients transparently, and so much more. Trust us, this is one episode you don't want to miss! Have questions or comments about this episode? We'd love to chat! Email hello@francesroy.com.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the widespread apprehension about AI in the agency world, urging listeners to embrace the technology rather than fear it. They emphasize that AI will not replace jobs but will change the nature of work, making tasks more efficient and allowing for more strategic focus. The conversation also explores how agency owners can leverage AI to create new service models and improve client offerings. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “I don’t think AI is going to replace us. I do think it’s going to change the way that we do our jobs. It’s going to make us more effective.” Chip Griffin: “One of the things that I hear is, it’s going to cut down our rates. Well, like for like, it ought to. If you’re not doing something new and different and additional, you absolutely should charge less for the things that AI is helping you do faster, because that’s what happens with all technology.” Gini Dietrich: “Technology is coming at us really fast, and the way that we adapt to it is what’s going to set us apart.” Chip Griffin: “Instead of freaking out about artificial intelligence, you need to use the other kind of AI – actual intelligence – to come up with a plan to move forward.” Resources How AI is Shaping the Future of Communications (Spin Sucks podcast) What a pink “While You Were Out” message pad looks like Related Is AI writing an agency's friend or foe? Should AI upend your agency business model today? What does ChatGPT and generative AI mean for PR agencies? Introduction to generative AI for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini. I don’t have a witty opening. I just have a message for people. Stop being afraid of AI. Gini Dietrich: Amen. Yes, totally agree. 100%. Yes. Chip Griffin: The amount of hand wringing that I see, not just in the agency world, but elsewhere around AI. Gini Dietrich: In general. Yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, it’s going to take our jobs. It’s going to mean that we can’t charge clients as much. We’re going to lose business because of it. The we’re going to get scammed and conned because of it. It’s, I mean, just all of these things, it just take a deep breath folks. Take a deep breath. You don’t need to go out and disclose everything. You don’t need to go out there and, you know, put it into your contracts that you use AI. Have you used a grammar checker? Yeah. Okay. Do you put that in your contracts too? Do you use interns? Do you put that in your contract too? I mean, come on folks. Let’s take a deep breath. Gini Dietrich: I totally agree with you. And I think that I don’t, I agree that it’s not going to replace us. I do think it’s going to change the way that we do our jobs. It’s going to make us more effective. does that mean that we can charge clients less? No, because we’re going to be doing more strategic, thoughtful work than like the tactical administrative stuff. And the way I like to think about it and the way I present it to our clients is. What are some of the things you, you have to do that you don’t enjoy doing? It could be anything from media list development to data research, to metrics reporting, to results reporting, to drafting presentations, like there’s all sorts of, what I would call administrative tasks that we have to do daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, because they’re critical to our jobs, but not necessarily things we enjoy doing. That’s what AI can help you do. So rather than say, well, I have to sit down and I have to pull all the reports from analytics and then I have to look at the metrics and figure out what changed. Like AI can do all of that for you. You don’t have to worry about doing that kind of stuff. And then you can focus on the things that you really enjoy doing. If it’s strategic work, if it’s writing, if it’s, you know, Google ads, if it’s PPC, whatever it happens to be that you enjoy doing, you can focus on that. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And I mean, there’s so many benefits that potentially can be had from it. Now, I mean, you know, one of the big things that I hear is, well, you know, it’s going to cut down our rates. Well, like for like it ought to. Right. Like, if you’re not doing something new and different and additional, you absolutely should charge less for the things that AI is helping you do faster, because that’s what happens with all technology. Correct. And back when I started in the agency world, we charged people for photocopies and faxes and the time that it took to do those things. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yes. Chip Griffin: You charge people for that today? No, and you shouldn’t because you’re not using copies and faxes and things are faster. When I started out in the agency world, I spent every, every morning going through newspapers with an exacto knife and cutting out stories and taping them onto a piece of paper and photocopying them and then sending those as faxes. All of that was billable time for the client project. Whether you billed by the hour or factored into your project cost, it was all there. You don’t do that anymore. You get your Google alert or your alert from some other system and you just have it and you forward it along a lot faster. You should absolutely charge less for that work than you did 30 years ago when it was all manual. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah. And so exactly that. When you think about, okay, if it’s, if we’re going to spend less time doing all the things that we’ve talked about and more time doing the things that we’re really good at or enjoy doing, then yeah, you’re going to charge less for those administrative tasks, which to your point, you should, And more for the things that the outputs that actually result in moving an organization’s business forward. And clients are gonna be happier with that. I mean, I’ve used this example, the example of the client of ours that does the hour long webinar every week and how it used to take us two weeks to create all the assets for one webinar. And now it takes us like 45 minutes. We have, the budget hasn’t changed, but we’ve shifted the work that we’re doing and we can do more strategic work that quite honestly, we’ve had on the backburner for a couple of years because we haven’t had the time or the budget or the scope to get to it. And he’s completely happy because he’s getting things a lot faster, he’s communicating to his audience more quickly, and we’re getting to do more work. So it hasn’t reduced our fee, but it has reduced the way or changed the way that we do the work. Chip Griffin: Right. Because you’ve continued to evolve. And I think any agency that is not continuing to evolve, whether it’s AI or anything else, you can’t do business the same way that you did it 5, 10, 20 years ago. You have to change. Your audiences are in different places, the technology is different that you use to get your work done, the workforce is different, all of these things contribute to the need to evolve and adapt and come up with new things that you can be doing that are more effective than the things that you did those 5 or 10 years ago when it was a lot more difficult to do certain tasks. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, I mean, to your point at the very beginning, stop being afraid of it. Stop wringing your hands. You know, I think every, there was a conversation about it in the Spin Sucks community. And I think some people are really worried about things like, what if we get scammed or what if somebody uses our voice or what if somebody uses our likeness? Well, Guess what? There are bad actors no matter what and people are going to use all of this to scam people just because that’s what they do. It’s not any different than them scamming people with phone calls or with mail or anything else. It’s just a different way of doing it. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, it, you know, does AI come up with some more interesting ways of doing scams? Sure, absolutely. But people have been being scammed for centuries. People even today are still being scammed by simple things like phone and mail and email. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: You don’t need the fancy AI stuff to get there. If you’re susceptible to being scammed, does the AI make it a little bit easier? Perhaps, but it also is something that’s out there no matter what. And for folks who are worried about that, you need to address the whole culture of scamming, not the technology around individual pieces, because otherwise you’d just be playing whack a mole. And what are we going to try to do, just get rid of everything? You can’t get rid of all technology. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think there’s a pretty big opportunity in here for agency owners that we’re not necessarily thinking about. And I did a recent Spin Sucks podcast episode on this. but I think there’s an opportunity for us to think about AI in a new way, and especially for agency owners, how we might create things that we can build a subscription model on, for instance. So say that you’re doing sentiment analysis and media monitoring and, crisis preparedness and results reporting. AI can do all of that for you now. And you create it in a way that it’s, that it’s applicable to your specific clients. So you have an AI that does, does it for all four of those things, for instance, for one client. And you offer that to the client as a subscription model because it’s created and it’s, it’s sort of a passive income thing where they get a report as often as they want daily, weekly, monthly, however they want it and they get exactly what they want. And then you, you have the oversight of saying, okay, we saw this in your report. And this is what it means, or this is what you should be thinking about. And so you, you’re adding on that layer of strategic oversight. So then you’re getting paid for that too. So I think there’s a really big opportunity for us to be thinking about how we create our own AI and how we train existing models to be able to quote unquote, sell it to our clients. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and the opportunities really do abound. And if you look past the immediate fear and, and you start to say, okay, well, how can I take advantage of this, you end up in a better place. And so I think about agencies that do a lot of creation, whether those that’s writing or video or photography or audio or all of those kinds of things. And, and I hear a lot of folks in those communities saying, oh my God, AI is going to take away my job as a writer because nobody’s going to pay me to do this. And guess what? If it’s run of the mill SEO volume work. Yeah. You, I mean, absolutely. You’re not going to be able to make a living writing that kind of schlock. The fact that you could up until now is just, you know, you were lucky. That, but that’s, if you’re writing original stuff, things that can only be done by someone who actually has the knowledge and that you’re tapping into your expertise or the expertise of your clients, and you’re communicating that in an original way, you’ll be fine. It’s like photographers. People know I do photography on the side for the most part. And so in that photography community, there are a lot of folks who are like, well, this generative AI, it’s destroying it. I don’t want them taking my images because it’s going to put me out of business. Well, then come up with photographs that can’t just be duplicated. If you’re taking a photograph of the exact same thing as everybody else, if you’re just doing stock photography, yes. Those are the kinds of things that are going to go away, but there’s still plenty of opportunity to be had if you look for it and you think creatively. Gini Dietrich: I think that’s a really good example too, because you know, everybody freaked out when the camera was introduced on the iPhone and later the Android, right? All the photography industry was like, Oh my gosh, we’re going to be replaced because everybody can take a picture. And that’s true. We can all take pictures. But Chip, you started your side business, what, three years ago, four years ago, after all of this came about. So people have their phones, their cameras on their phones, and you’re still able to do professional photography work because you’re doing different things and you’re doing it in a way that’s appealing to your community. So I think to your point, that’s a great example of things change. Technology is coming at us really fast, and the way that we adapt to it is what’s going to set us apart. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean the photography that I do is sports photography. I mean, you can’t you can’t do AI images of a game because the game hasn’t happened. And in order for it to do it, it would need to be able to tap into something, in other words, video or photos that someone had already done of the game. Right. So as long as you’re creating original stuff, or I do senior and family photos. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: AI is not going to create, you know, your family photo for you. Right. It may help improve it, and most photographers I know use generative AI to improve images. Sure, sure. And so it’s kind of hypocritical for you to use it in your product that you’re creating and, and say, well, I don’t, I don’t want my stuff to be helping to train it. I don’t want others to have access to it because it’s going to put me out of work. Right. So, and if we think about these things, and we’re so protective of the way that we do things, whether it’s our job or our agency or whatever. We lose out on everything that takes place. And we’ve been going through this cycle for a long time. I mean, how many blacksmiths are there out there today? A lot fewer than there were 150 years ago. Have you, have you found a horse and buggy driver outside of Central Park in the last, you know, 50 years? Probably not. They all, things shift as technology shifts. We need to adapt with it and not freak out by it. And I think it’s the overreaction that’s going to put a lot of individuals and agencies into trouble because you’re either because you’re going to lean so heavily into it and say, well, this changes everything. Right. And I can just do everything entirely differently, or you resist it all. And you say, no, I need to protect the way things were. There’s a happy middle ground in there where you’ll have a thriving business that does great work for clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I mean, yes, we have continued to evolve. If we don’t evolve, we’re dead. So, the idea that we’re going to bury our heads in the sand and pretend this isn’t happening is the wrong thing to do, because it’s happening. And this, I may have already said this on this podcast, but it reminds me of like 2010 ish when I started speaking and to groups of CEOs and, and we, I would talk about social media and they’d all be like, no, it’s for the kids. It’s a fad. It’s not going to affect my business. And I would be like, no, it is going to affect your business and you are going to have to use it. And, and the, the mass majority of them would be like, no. Don’t have to worry about it. I don’t need to hear this. La la la la la. They’d stick their fingers in their ears. And look where we are today. So it’s, this is the same thing. Like, don’t stick your fingers in your ears and, and yell, la la la la la. Don’t stick your head in the sand. It’s too late to put the genie back in the bottle. It’s here. So figure out ways to grasp the opportunity and make the best out of it for your agency. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, the reality is that in the agency world, jobs have gone away in our lifetimes in the course of my career. Yes. If I look back 30 years ago, every agency had an admin assistant or secretary or something like that who handled all of these things like faxes and photocopies and answering the phone and filling out the while you were out slips and, and all of these things. That doesn’t happen. I can’t think of an agency that has a pure admin. I, there are ones who have maybe some office manager type responsibilities, but usually with substantive stuff alongside of it, because you can’t fill 40 hours a week. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yep. Chip Griffin: And so we’ve seen these changes take place in our lifetimes, but we’ve also seen the creation of new jobs. When I first started out, nobody was doing digital media. Nobody was doing social media. PR agencies tended not to get into paid media at all. And now we have the lovely PESO model that informs you how you can go out and do a bunch of different things under the same umbrella in order to help your clients most effectively. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I mean, I, I’m thinking about, you know, when I worked at Fleishman Hillard and there was a receptionist and all she did all day long was answer the phone. That doesn’t exist anymore. Because we all use our cell phones. Like I remember a time where it felt weird to give your cell phone number to clients or to use your cell phone for business purposes because you had a desk phone. Well, that hasn’t happened in years, right? At least not for me. So the idea that. You would have a recipient sitting there at the front desk only answering phones is antiquated. Are there other things that person can do? For sure, but it’s not the same role that was 10, 15 years ago. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, when I worked on Capitol Hill, there were literally people in my office who did nothing but answer the phone cause it just rang all day long. And, and on my desk, I had one of those big metal spokes where you just, every time you returned a phone call on the pink message slip, you just, the satisfying feel of putting it down on the spike and you’d see it grow and you’re like, well, I did a lot of work. Gini Dietrich: Oh, man, I was productive today. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and, I mean, most, I think a lot of people listening probably never experienced that and probably don’t even understand what the heck I’m talking about. I mean, I, a significant number of agency employees, at least, if not owners don’t know what a while you were out slip looks like. But those of us who were around 20 or 30 years ago. It’s etched into our brain because we had so many of them sitting on our desks in our offices. You know, when you come back from lunch and you’re like, Oh, here’s a stack. Great. Fantastic. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: So you just need to learn to evolve. And, and instead of freaking out about artificial intelligence, you need to use the other kind of AI – actual intelligence to come up with an actual plan to move forward. And, and for those of you who are not watching on video right now, we are getting a cameo appearance from Gini’s daughter, who is on her first day of summer break. And Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: apparently really likes the camera. Gini Dietrich: It’s going to be a long week. Chip Griffin: I wouldn’t have said a long week, you have the whole summer. Gini Dietrich: Camp starts next week. Chip Griffin: Ah, okay. Well, so you only have a week to get through this then. I guess this is a backdoor way for her to get some screen time though. Yeah, she’s trying. If her screen time is watching me, I feel really sorry for her. Gini Dietrich: I was telling Chip before we started. I don’t like, I don’t allow the screen, so she’s Chip Griffin: Yeah, well, before this totally devolves and goes downhill because the AI isn’t going to help you manage that situation, so we probably should wrap up this episode. I think I feel like I’ve gotten this rant off my chest. Don’t be afraid of it. It’s not our first time talking about AI. I will be consistent in my messaging. You know, we’ll come back to this periodically because it’s, it’s going to be something that, that you all need to be thinking about and truly it is all technology. It is not just, we’re talking about AI and, and AI is the popular one today. But as you point out, we’ve had these, we had this with social media, right? You had the same kind of thing. You had the overreaction in both directions. Social media destroys everything else media relations wise, or, Oh my God, it’s a huge threat. The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. So find that middle ground and you’ll be successful. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And like I said, I think there’s a big, big opportunity for agencies right now. So huge opportunity. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Huge. Absolutely. On that note, we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m almost speechless here. We now have a dog on the video here. So if you, if you really want an entertaining show, watch the video version, don’t just listen to us. Gini Dietrich: This is like a replay of 2020 all over again, Chip Griffin: it does feel a bit like that On that note, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Are you finding biz dev harder in 2024 than you expected? In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the increased risk aversion and prolonged decision-making processes among clients and prospects in the agency industry, especially in light of economic uncertainties and the 2024 U.S. election. They emphasize the importance of agencies adapting by providing project-based work and suggest looking into using AI for optimizing tasks and offering new services. The conversation also explores the benefits of flexible, short-term engagements and the potential pitfalls of long-term contracts. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Something that agencies frankly should always be thinking about, but particularly in times like this is how do you offer less risky solutions, or at least things that appear less risky to the prospect if you want to close business in the near term. And, a lot of agencies don’t want to hear this, but that means doing more project work.” Gini Dietrich: “The flip side of a short-term engagement is it gives you the opportunity to know if they’re the right client for you because you’re not married to them for the next year.” Chip Griffin: “I think that agencies by and large today would say that they are more fearful of AI than hopeful for it. I think that is a giant mistake.” Gini Dietrich: “I don’t think the industry is quite here yet, but I think Artificial Intelligence is going to offer agencies a really big opportunity in the next couple of years.” Related Is business slowing down for agencies in 2023? How to build accurate PR agency project budgets The challenges of project-focused agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I really don’t have an opening today, so I guess… Gini Dietrich: I was waiting patiently. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I, I just, I, I couldn’t come up with something on the fly today. I don’t know whether my brain’s not working or what, but we’ll just, we’ll just have to dive right into the topic without that witty opening that I always have. Gini Dietrich: Witty is in quotes. Chip Griffin: Wow. Wow. Already taking shots at me in less than 30 seconds. Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome. Chip Griffin: Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Probably well deserved today since, you know, I couldn’t even come up with my bad opening. So what we are going to talk about though, is whether our, our clients out there in agency land are taking longer to make decisions and, and more risk averse when it comes to spending their organization’s money and what that means for agencies. Here in, in mid 2024. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, we talked earlier this year about how crappy 2023 was generally overall for agencies, and 2024 hasn’t gotten much better. I keep saying to clients both on the agency side and coaching clients that part of that’s because it’s an election year, and as we all know it’s not exactly calm and sane and rainbows and unicorns out there so that’s that’s partly why because And we see this during every presidential election year where our clients tend to go, let’s see what, let’s wait and see what happens with this election. But I think this year in particular and four years ago as well, you know, we, we were, we’re facing some unprecedented times that make everybody just go, okay, let’s just keep things status quo for now. And then we’ll start to loosen our belts a little bit. So I don’t anticipate it getting any better for the rest of this year, but I do anticipate hopefully in January that things start to lighten up a little bit. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I think we have, you know, right now we’ve got the coalescing of a number of factors that cause people to be in the business world, more risk averse, right? We’ve got economic indicators that continue to be mixed. Some you look at and you’re like, wow, things are going great. Some you look at and you’re like, this still doesn’t feel quite right to me. And then you, you mix in with that, the politics, the geopolitical situation globally, and you start to say, you know, there, there are a lot of things here that will cause many organizations to sit there and say, well, you know, I don’t want to make long term commitments. I don’t want to make big financial commitments. I need to have flexibility. And frankly, a lot of agencies are making those decisions themselves. So it’s hard to be critical of our clients when they do the same thing that we’re doing. Right. And we’re all thinking the same way. So, it, it is something that is, is challenging to navigate. And I’ve had conversations with a number of coaching clients over the past few months about, you know, what do we do about this? And how do we, how do we turn things around? I know that, that many are really struggling because clients have cut back and the pipeline hasn’t necessarily dried up, but the amount of time it takes to close business is really elongating. And so it is a challenging place to be. As you know, we’ve been there before, four years, four years ago, you know, I’m not sure that’s the most apt because, you know, we had COVID four years ago, too. Fair. That’s also fair. That was dramatically different. Gini Dietrich: It was. Chip Griffin: Certainly there have been any number of instances. over the past 20 years that I’ve seen where, you know, businesses have been in a similar situation and that has put agencies in a similar situation. So it is far from unprecedented. Gini Dietrich: And I think right now we have something else that we, that we haven’t seen in recent years, which is in, because inflation is so high and all of the stuff that goes around that consumers in general are cutting back. And there’s, I was just reading last week about this big trend of. I can’t remember. There’s a, there’s a trendy name for it, but essentially that people are saying, okay, well, I’m not going to spend any, it’s, I think it’s like the no buy pledge or something, I’m not going to spend any money on things that I don’t need this year. And so there’s a trend toward renting your clothes, which I do. There’s a trend toward buying sustainable products that last longer. There’s like even things like sustainable what this helps for both the earth and your pocketbook, but buying sustainable, bags and paper towels that you’re not just throwing into the landfill and they cost less in the long run. So this whole idea that because things cost so much more money, and inflation is high and all these other things that go into it. Everybody’s doing it. So you have this trickle down effect where it’s affecting everyone. And I haven’t seen that piece of it, the consumer piece of it in several years, probably since the Great Recession, where it has affected sort of everyone going into it. Chip Griffin: Can we, we rewind on what you said there, because I’ve learned something new. You rent your clothes. First of all, I didn’t know you did that. Cause I didn’t know it was even a possibility to do something like that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You rent clothes. Chip Griffin: I mean, I don’t rent clothes. I mean, I, I know this will shock. I buy $12 specials from Amazon. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right. There’s no, there actually, there’s not a service for men yet. We were just, cause we were just researching it, but like there are lots and lots of services for women where depending on what, which package you buy, you can have, you know, once a week you get new clothes, twice a month, whatever, once a month, whatever it is, but you go in and you choose what you want and they, they dry clean it and send it to you and then you wear it as many times as you want and you send it back. It’s great. You don’t even have to do laundry. It’s fantastic. And so you always have new clothes. And you’re, you’re, you know, you can cycle through trends and seasons and all that kind of stuff without having to buy new and it costs significantly less than if you were to go out and buy new clothes. Chip Griffin: That is very interesting. I, you know, I love when I learn new things. This is obviously not directly related to agencies, but, but nevertheless, listeners may enjoy. Learning about this. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like the, there’s that whole trend of like, you know, helping the earth and sustainability and all that as well as saving money because things are so tight. Chip Griffin: Right. And ultimately it’s also the same thing that a lot of agency prospects are thinking, which is de risking, right? Because you’re not buying an expensive piece of clothing that, you know, you’re going to have to hold onto, even though maybe you won’t like it after you, you know, wear it once or twice, you know, it’s not comfortable, it doesn’t look good, whatever, right. But because it’s rented you’re lowering the risk. And I, and I do think that this is something that agencies frankly should always be thinking about, but particularly in times like this is how do you offer less risky solutions, or at least things that appear less risky to the prospect if you want to close business in the near term. And, and unfortunately a lot of agencies don’t want to hear this, but a lot of that means doing more project work. And I, I really, for the life of me, do not understand why agency owners tend to be so resistant to projects. Because I think that it’s healthy to have retainer business, but I think it’s healthy to have a mix as well. And we’ve talked about this before. I think it gives you kind of the best of both worlds. And by, you know, a time like this is the best time to embrace project work because it’s the kind of thing that clients are more likely to pay for now. So if you want to close a deal and you want to close it faster, you need to find a way to offer projects that provide value to the client, but are also profitable for you. And I think that’s why there tends to be resistance on projects because they don’t get priced correctly. So they’re not turning a profit on them because they say, well, we’ll just do this project and it will lead to X, Y, or Z retainer down the road. Forget about that. Make the project profitable itself. If you’re going to offer them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think to your point, because we, we tend to think, Oh, well, we’ll start this and I’ll get our foot in the door and it’ll lead to longer term projects or a retainer down the road. Because we tend to think that way we don’t go, okay, we’re going to treat this as a project with a beginning and an end and a profitable outcome for us. Right. And here’s the tangible. We tend to say, okay, well, we’ll do this for three months. Like we normally would. We’ll do media relations or crisis or whatever it happens to be for 90 days. And then it’ll lead to longer. And what you have to do instead is say, okay, we’re going to actually create for lack of a term, a product or a package that they buy. And one of the very best pieces of advice I got when I started speaking, internationally, to audiences is, a guy who was a strong vistage speaker said to me, Hey, listen, if you’re going to be speaking to vistage groups, which is a group of CEOs that you get into a room for three hours, it’s great. It’s a captive audience. It’s your target audience. if you’re going to be doing that, you can’t say, well, our minimums are 10, 000 a month and you, you sign an annual retainer and you get this, this, and this, he’s like this, that won’t work for this audience. But what does work is you say to them, we can do a strategic planning session and you, the outcome of that will be this, this, and this, and it costs X. Or we can do a social media audit or we can do a content audit or, and the result of that is X and it costs this. So when you, he said, when you package it up like that, it’s a lot easier for them. A to buy on the spot and B to take that baby step in. So I give you that same kind of kind of advice because A, it works and B, it gives you the opportunity to say, if we’re going to do this, it’s going to take us six weeks. It’s going to, your outcome is going to be an audit that tells you what’s missing, what, what you have, what you can repurpose and what you, you need to include. And of course, hire us to do all that work and it costs X, right? So it has a beginning, a middle and an end. It’s a very succinct package that’s easy for clients to buy. And then there is the next step is either they do it internally. Or they hire you to do it themselves or to do it for them. And most of the time they’re going to hire you to do it for them. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I mean, what I would encourage you to do is, is think about the first 30, 60, 90 days that you are working with a new client. Most agencies I know have a similar formula that they use when they onboard a new client. Yep. So if you can figure out what it is that you do in those first couple of months, and you can you know, put it in a package where you can clearly communicate what it is. And it’s probably a mix of strategy and putting together some key message points, maybe a little bit of training, you know, but just try to think about what those first couple of months are and present it in a way that it is a short term engagement to jumpstart their communications activities or whatever it is. I mean, whatever your first few months look like package it up and sell that. And if you do that in a way that it’s profitable for you, You’ve done a good job of being able to show the prospect what you can do. You’ve kept the budget down. You’ve kept the timeline down so that they’re not saying, Oh my God, I’m committed to this for the next 12 months. And it’s a lot of money, but yet you’ve whet their appetite. And, and frankly, if they’re not interested after that, that’s probably a sign. If they’re not interested in doing the basic, you know, foundational work, that’s a red flag too. Right. So, I mean, cause that’s the pushback I often get was, well, no, we don’t, you know, they don’t want to pay for that. Well, first of all, sprinkling enough deliverables that you give to them beyond the strategy so that they feel like we’re getting more than quote unquote, just strategy. But if they’re totally disinterested in strategy, you probably don’t want to work with them anyway. It’s probably not, not a good fit for most PR and marketing agencies. If someone just wants you to jump in and start spewing out press releases or blog posts or social media or that kind of thing. You need to figure out why you’re doing it and how to do it effectively. Gini Dietrich: And I would say on the flip side of that is it gives you the opportunity to know if they’re the right client for you because you’re not married to them for the next year as you try to stumble through and figure it out. Maybe they’re terrible. Maybe they’re like, they’re going to get 60 days in and start bullying you. Like, this is a great opportunity for you as well to go, yeah, these are great clients for us. This, this client sucks and I can’t wait until the 60 days are up. Right. So it’s a great opportunity for you to test them out too. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think, I think too many agencies don’t think about those things. Right. Because when, when we think about, well, we’re locking the client into a contract, that’s what we want to do. Remember you’re locking yourself into that contract too. And honestly, you’re more locking yourself into it than you are locking the client because clients will break contracts without a second thought in the world. Right. I don’t know many agencies who are either inclined to do the same or probably could withstand that because most of the clients that we work with are bigger than we are. And so if we try to say, no, we’re out, we’re going to get a lot more pushback and have to deal with a lot more problems because they’ve got a legal team or executives or other people that can just make our lives difficult. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: We think about it in terms of locking in the client, but we’re really locking in ourselves. And it’s why I prefer to have some sort of a paid discovery approach. Like what we’re talking about here. It’s why I, I personally prefer 30 day outs on my contracts. I don’t want to lock myself in any more than I want to lock them in. And particularly early on in the relationship, you don’t know how they’re going to turn out. You don’t know if you priced it correctly. You don’t know if they’re going to be abusive to work for. If you have these projects, it allows you to have that means of figuring out do I want to work for them? If I do want to work for them, do I need to charge them the PITA tax that I always talk about? Right. And those are all helpful things to you. So this is, this is why fundamentally, I think, agencies need to get over their fear of projects because I think it is a great way to get started. And frankly, it’s not a bad way to work with clients, even on an ongoing basis, as long as you’re, as long as you’re scoping them and pricing them properly and profitably, you’ll be fine. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I know we’ve talked about this before, but the way that we work is kind of like that. I mean, clients do sign a contract and it does have a termination clause and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it renews every year if there’s no, like all of that. Right. But the way that we work from a statement of work perspective is quarterly. And we say, okay, in this quarter, these are the goals. This is what we’re trying to achieve. This is what the, what the outcome is. And at the end of every quarter, We have a meeting with the executive team and we go through everything and we say, you know, like we just had the, had one at the end of quarter. One with a client and we said, you know, you wanted to focus on email marketing to generate leads and it didn’t work. Like, yeah, you got a couple of 40, 000 clients, but it, what, like the, what, what we were expecting to have happen and what you wanted to have happen didn’t work. What we, what does work is this, this, this, and this, as we’ve proven in the past. So we’d like to transition back to that and do that. Start implementing that stuff again. And so we were able to do that in quarter two, just to get them back to the level that we were at before. If we were locked into a full year of this is what we’re going to do every month, we wouldn’t be able to have that. And it also allows us to say, okay, if you want to try email marketing, we can do that, but it’s going to cost X more. Now that we’re transitioning back, we can take that budget and either move it around into more things, or you can take the budget back. So you have the ongoing budget conversation too, so that you’re never over servicing. Ever. Chip Griffin: And you’re also making sure you’re devoting your resources to the right stuff. So you’re actually being effective. Because I think that’s, it’s one of the reasons why agencies tend to lose some of their long term clients, because you’ve just been operating on autopilot. And if you start doing something, you keep doing something because you don’t want to rock the boat. You don’t want to upset the apple cart. You don’t want to cause the client to talk about things where they might want to change their approach or their budget or whatever. No, you want them to do that. You want to invite those conversations because you’re better off making adjustments, even if it may mean less dollars in your pocket in the short term, because often it may mean more dollars if you’re able to figure out how to do it effectively and what new things to offer them and shed that, that dead weight that you’re bringing along, because you started at six months or six years ago and you just keep on keeping on. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think there’s one other thing that we can think about and we’re, I don’t think the industry is quite here yet, but I’m going to put this in your brain to start mulling over and think about. Artificial intelligence, I think is going to offer agencies a really big opportunity in the next couple of years. I’m actually working on some content for Spin Sucks on this right now. So it’s not fully baked, but there is an opportunity for us to use the existing AI to create things that will make our clients more effective. And I think there’s an opportunity for us to create AI that uses our process or our framework or the way that we do things in a really effective way that we could sell the clients. So now we have retainers, we have project fees and we have a membership subscription model with the AI that says, okay, if you’re going to, like right now, I know that many agencies in the PR industry will go into their media monitoring and they’ll do a sentiment analysis and they’ll look at key messaging and they’ll look at share voice and they’ll do that. And a lot of that’s manual, but if you could create AI, use existing AI to help you do that work and do it without a human being, that you could just provide to a client ongoing for a subscription. There’s an opportunity there as well. Like I said, I don’t think that generally the industry is there yet, but I think it’s something for you to keep in the back of your mind and think about, okay, as we’re using AI and as we’re onboarding new clients, and as we’re going through client work. What are some of the things that we can optimize and automate and then sell that to clients as an add on subscription while we’re over here doing the more strategic human necessary work? Chip Griffin: I think that’s a great point. And I think there are so many opportunities with AI even today, but they will only grow. Yeah. Over time. And I think it will substantially transform a lot of industries, but certainly the agency world, certainly the, the world of media monitoring and analysis that I was part of and have been a part of decades. And I, and I know that there’s a lot of research and work going into this, from a lot of people. I think that agencies by and large today would say that they are more fearful of AI than hopeful for it. Gini Dietrich: Don’t be fearful. Chip Griffin: I think that is a giant mistake. We’ve talked about AI before, but it’s probably worth revisiting on an episode here in the not too distant future because it does continue to evolve. And I think that you need to evolve with it. And, and the most important thing whether you’re, you know, just concerned about generating business today or how you use AI in the future is to think about it in terms of what are the results that clients are looking for, right? And I think too often agencies think in terms of actual outputs and they and they’re thinking about I’m producing press releases, blog posts, social media updates, whatever. That’s not why you’re being hired. And so you can’t focus on that with your clients today. And certainly as you think about AI in the future, it’s going to make a lot of those things a lot easier to do. And, and if it’s a lot easier to churn that stuff out, you need to figure out how to do it more intelligently and put the human intelligence to partner with that artificial intelligence. Absolutely. And there’s a huge amount of opportunity there today and in the future, if you’re willing to look for it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I don’t think we should be fearful of it at all. I think that it’s, to your point, it’s evolving. I think that it’s going to make us more effective and it’s going to do the stuff that really, truthfully, none of us want to do anyway. Right, right. So let it do it. Chip Griffin: Yeah, absolutely. And, and so today, if you are sitting there and you’re saying, geez, you know, what am I going to do? Because clients are, or prospects are being slow to respond. You know, I’m seeing people want smaller projects, embrace that, but figure out how to embrace it in a way that can be successful for you. Don’t view it as, well, I’m just going to take this as a foot in the door. You need to think of, of as profitabe in itself. Yeah. because that’s how you can make it work for you. That’s how you can close any revenue gaps that you have today, but also position yourself for the future. And, and I think there’s still a lot of opportunity to be had there. Gini Dietrich: Totally agree. 100%. Chip Griffin: So with that, we have the opportunity to bring this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Gen Z employees tend to have a different (not worse!) approach to their jobs than the older generations do. Which means that as an owner, you need to evolve the way you communicate with and manage them. In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss those differences and the importance of effective communication and feedback in managing and leading. They highlight the need for two-way feedback and setting clear expectations, which will in turn foster a culture of trust and creativity in the workplace. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Because the nature of work has changed, it has changed the relationship between employers and particularly those newer to the workforce employees.” Gini Dietrich: “Gen Z are making demands in their professional lives that are annoying for us. Because it’s not the way that we did things, nor the way that we do things now. But I think it’s really smart and really healthy.” Chip Griffin: “I don’t have to be tethered to a physical desk. Our generation views that as a freedom, but if you never grew up in that fashion, it doesn’t feel that way. It feels like a tether that doesn’t ever allow you to fully disconnect.” Gini Dietrich: “Feedback is probably the number one thing. Once you do that, you start to prioritize the soft skills, you start to unbox creativity, and you start to create a level of trust that I think a lot of organizations don’t have.” Resources Creating space for Gen Z to ‘ask everything' will strengthen your team. Here's how. Related Managing Gen Z agency employees (and anyone else with less experience than you) CWC 17: Ann McCain on hiring and working with millennial PR professionals View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we’re going to talk about one of our favorite subjects today, Gen Z. Yay! Because who doesn’t? I mean, you know, part of it is, you know, the old, we get older and so it’s all get off my lawn. And, you know, we, when we were young, we had to walk uphill to school both ways, but I think there are indeed some differences with Gen Z that are worth discussing. And in part, this is based on our experiences, but in part, it’s also based off of an article that we’re linked to in the the show notes. it’s titled “Creating space for Gen Z to ask everything will strengthen your team and here’s how.” And so basically, what we’re going to focus on today is Gen Z and how you communicate with them effectively, how you can provide useful and meaningful feedback because They are, they are a little bit different than previous generations in how they approach work. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, I think with our generation and even a little bit younger, you know, as long as we put our head down, we came to work, we got our work done, we put our head down, we did really a really good job. And we didn’t get any feedback. We were good, right? The feedback we got was negative or maybe constructive criticism. But if we weren’t getting any feedback, it was sort of like the no news is good news kind of thing with the doctor, like you were good. Well, that’s not the case anymore. You have to give feedback. And, there’s a lot, I think, that goes on with, with Gen Z, you know, they’re very conscientious about, Personal life and professional lives and not having them intersect, where I think our generation, we tend to see that sort of ebb and flow together a little bit. They’re very diligent about their mental health, where I think we were just like, tough it out and, you know, get it done and whatever it takes. And so, and, and they want feedback. And so I think we have to keep those three things in mind as we, as we manage and lead them, because. It’s very different from the way that we have grown up through ranks. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think some of it is that, that we remember things the way we want to. So I think there is some element of the, we walked up to school both ways, which of course was, was not true unless, I mean, it could be if there was a hill in the middle, I suppose, but, but I think there is indeed more to it. And I do think that we need to think about these things. And part of it is the nature of work has changed. When we were, we were up and coming when we left work, we left work. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. That’s fair. Chip Griffin: We didn’t even have a, I mean, when I first started out in agency, I didn’t have a cell phone. I didn’t have a pager. You know, those fun little things. I saw a TV show where someone was talking about a pager the other day and I’m like, my kids have no idea what a pager is. Gini Dietrich: No idea. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and so it was different because you couldn’t be doing anything out of work. I mean, it meant someone typically had to leave a message on your answering machine that had an actual tape cassette in it, which again, Gen Z would have no concept of what that even is. And so, because the nature of work has changed. It has changed the relationship between employers and particularly those newer to the workforce employees. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s definitely, that’s a really good point. It definitely has changed. and it’s a lot harder to say, okay, well, I’m leaving work now. And I’m done. I mean, there was just a conversation in the Spin Sucks community the other day about how you sort of manage it, especially if you’re a remote or hybrid employee, you know, how do you sort of create those boundaries in those walls? And one person said, well, when I close my laptop, I’m done. But then you have your phone and you have email on your phone and you have Slack on your phone and you have text messaging and all that. So are you really done? Do you close your laptop and you put your phone away? That’s usually not the case, but I think with Gen Z and that we could all probably learn something from this is really good about saying, yeah, actually, I am done. It’s five o’clock. I’m done. And I think the rest of us tend to ebb and flow a little bit through it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And because we’ve seen the evolution, you know, me and I’ve talked about this on the show before I, I personally view that always on as actually a benefit because it allows me to do things I might not otherwise have done. When I, you know, for example, worked on Capitol Hill or in crisis communications prior to having a cell phone, a pager, a laptop, all these kinds of things, I would feel like if something big was going on, I had to be in the office. Sure. Yeah. Because something might come up and it might need to be dealt with and it was the only place I could do that. Yep. And so. So for, for folks like me who have been there and done that, we say, okay, well, it’s great that I have a cell phone. I, I can now, you know, go off to a game or whatever, and I’ve got my phone. So if something comes up during that window, I’m fine. I don’t have to be tethered to a physical desk just in case that reporter calls or just in case that vote happens or whatever. And so I, I think that, that we view it as a freedom, but if you never grew up in that fashion, it doesn’t feel that way. It feels like a tether that… it doesn’t ever allow you to fully disconnect. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s interesting. I’m actually reading, I’m almost finished with it, The Anxious Generation, which, for anybody who has kids at home, it’s in my opinion, a must read. But it talks about exactly that, where, you know, you, these kids have gone, they, they did, they didn’t have the non digital, non social media, non internet life that we did, you know, like you and I don’t have, embarrassing photos from college that you can get on social media. Just doesn’t exist. There are embarrassing photos from college, but not they don’t exist on social media. Right. And I think that’s different. And you know, that we didn’t grow up with the front facing camera and being able to connect with millions of people around the world if we wanted to. We didn’t grow up with the idea that we could have a YouTube channel and become, you know, make money at 12 or 13 years old because of it. And, and because of it, it’s creating a lot of anxiety. And I think it’s really smart for Gen Z to be able to say, I don’t want to have that. I don’t want to be depressed. I don’t want to have anxiety. I don’t want to be tethered to my phone. And so here are the things that I’m demanding. And they’re demanding that in their personal and their professional lives, it’s annoying for us. Because it’s not the way that we did things, nor the way that we do things now. But I think it’s really smart and really healthy. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and like anything, I think there’s a, there’s a happy middle ground in here somewhere. I think there are certainly, there are extremes within some elements of Gen Z that, that really just don’t even care about work at all. I mean, they really just, well… we’ve always had that. I mean, I, you know, I remember, you know, 30, 35 years ago, working with people who they clearly didn’t care one way or another. They were there to collect their paycheck. And as long as they didn’t get fired, it was a good day. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: That drives me bonkers. I don’t care whether you’re 65 years old or 25 years old. But I think there are a lot of good lessons to be taken from some of the expectations, frankly, that Gen Z has in the workplace. And I think they’re particularly important for agencies in terms of thinking about how we structure our work, how we provide that feedback to the employees, because we do need to acknowledge the things that they are doing right in addition to correcting them. And I, I personally, this, this is one that took me a long time to learn because I just, I was very much the, that head down, just get your job done. Right. If I need to change something, let me know, but I don’t, you know, I don’t need the big pat on the back or a hug or any of those kinds of things. And I learned over the years, even before Gen Z was born, there were employees who needed more of that. And I think with Gen Z many, if not most, are looking for that positive reinforcement as well. And so we need to be prepared to give that. And we need to be prepared to think about how do we help them to balance work? And I don’t like work life balance per se, because I think it’s very difficult to have… to really carve them out as two separate things, because most people today, particularly in a remote environment, are going to do work for a few hours and then do some personal stuff. And so there is clearly some blending, and I don’t think that is a bad thing necessarily, as long as you are continuing to be productive. And productive, by the way, doesn’t mean that you’re just shouldering all the work so that your agency can be profitable because they’re not pricing correctly. I’d be remiss if I didn’t get my pricing plug in there. Gini Dietrich: You would, you would. Chip Griffin: So there are things that we can and should learn here. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s the feedback one is, I actually just had a conversation with a client about this the other day, like, because we’re entrepreneurs and because we own our own businesses, we tend to… and this is a generalization, but most of us tend to not need process and structure because we can look at a problem and we can in our heads go, Oh, well, let’s solve it this way. Right. And so we don’t need the process to say, well, you have to do it this way and this way and this way, but that’s why we own the business. So our employees need. something in, in written in stone, at least for the time being that says, here’s our process, here’s our standing operating procedure, and here’s how we get feedback. The feedback might be that you’re walking around the office. The feedback might be that you’re checking in with a quick Slack, Slack huddle, you know, one of the things I like to do is it’s actually really fun when a person first starts, cause they kind of freak out, but I’ll Slack them and say, Hey, do you have a few minutes? And they’re always like, And they very quickly learn that it’s just me checking in, but I do like to give them that little panic. It’s or, or type their name in all caps. That’s fun to do to Gen Z too. They don’t, they don’t like their name in all caps. They’re like, what? I’m like, Oh, no, but like, I will just check in and say, Hey, let’s, let’s do a quick Slack huddle. and just check in, just, you know, see how things are going. Check in with their personal lives. Ask, you know, how, how things are at home. Ask the, how they’re enjoying their work. And it’s just that they enjoy that. And I try to do that with everyone at least once a week. Sometimes I’m better at it than others, depending on how my week is, but giving them that, that open feedback. And helping them understand that you’re available, but also giving them the opportunity to say to you, Hey, I’d really like to talk to you about this. And it gives, it opens the door for them to say, Hey, do you have a quick minute to huddle? And, and they start to do that. It takes them a few months, but they do start to do that too. So that you have the back and forth feedback loop that works really, really well. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think that the two way feedback is so important here and and you really do need to create that environment. I know most if most managers will say I’ve got an open door policy. Honestly, that at this point means almost nothing in part because nobody’s in an actual office all that much anymore but but beyond that, it’s… I had a lot of managers over the years who said that, and that was very much not true. You know, if you, if you really wanted to talk to them, you probably were going to have to schedule it out months in advance. And so you need to be thinking about how do you make it so that it’s, it’s not just that you have the availability, but that people have the comfort level as employees to come to you. And if you don’t see your, particularly your Gen Z employees, but any employees coming to you, proactively with things concerns or or even happy things, whatever it is, then you need to examine that and figure out why. What, what, in your behavior is causing them not to feel comfortable doing that because you want that two way feedback loop to be taking place. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: And if you, if you don’t, then you’re going to miss a lot of good ideas. You’re going to miss a lot of early warning signs. And so that communication piece is vitally important. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, one of my very favorite things in the whole world is when somebody comes to me and says, Hey, do you have a few minutes? And then they say, I’ve been thinking about this idea. And they, you know, tell me what they’ve been thinking about and I’m always like, that’s amazing. First of all, I didn’t think of that. I didn’t have to think about it. I didn’t have like, it never even occurred to me because I don’t even have to think about the client because I know you’ve got it handled. Like being able to just take that out of your brain and not even have to worry about it is the best feeling in the world. So if you can provide that opportunity for people to feel comfortable to come to you with those kinds of things, all of a sudden you have this huge weight that lifts off of your shoulders. There might be in the beginning a little bit of feeling like, Oh man, I should have thought of that. Or why am I not thinking about that? Or, oh, that’s such a good idea. You know, a little bit of the ego in there, but eventually you’re like, this is fantastic. I don’t have to think about this! And getting that out of your brain because you’ve created the opportunity for people to feel really comfortable coming to you for all sorts of things, ideas, problems, challenges, all of it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and questions. I mean, I think we need to, we need to, to help people to understand that for the most part, as they said in school, there is no such thing as a dumb question. I don’t fully believe it. I think there are some truly dumb questions. And, and the environment that I always try to create is, you can ask me any question you want. I would just prefer you not ask the same question that’s been asked and answered repeatedly. That will drive me bonkers and has driven me bonkers with employees over the years where I’m like, well, we just talked about this last week. And the answer is the same as the one I gave you last week. So there does have to be some education on the part of the Gen Z employees and others that, you know, we can’t go down that road. But, but otherwise, if it’s, if it’s something that you are legitimately curious about, or you need the information. Come with it because too often we end up throwing our junior employees in the deep end of the pool and hoping that they can swim. And we need to be much more proactive, not just at the onboarding stage, although that is important. And I see many small agencies really shoving people into the deep end of the pool on day one. And that just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. But it’s ongoing because, you know, if you’re throwing someone a new client or a new project, you need to make sure that you’re clear about the expectations about the resources that are available and you’re there to answer whatever questions they may have about the work that they are about to do. And this is true, not just for you as the owner, but all of your. middle managers, assuming you have any of them. And, and that’s, you need to create the culture where it’s not just you doing it, but it flows downhill as well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, and I think that’s where processes and standard operating procedures come into play because now you have, you have something written for them to follow. And, and it’s everything from, this is how we use AI. This is how we use email. This is what our email signature looks like. This is how we provide client weekly reports. This is how you’ll get your direct deposit information, like all of it, everything, because all of that stuff, even though it should be in the onboarding, sometimes it is in the onboarding and we forget, right? I mean, you’re overwhelmed and inundated with so much information, your first week of work, that it has to be something that they can continue to use over and over again. So create something that’s a process that allows you to replicate it and scale it really quickly. Without having to do it over and over and over again, make it repeatable. And I will tell you that there are lots of ways that you can use AI to create your standard operating procedures. Like there’s a template that you can use that will fill in most things. And then you can go in and personalize it and customize it. To the way that your agency does things, which will take you significantly less time. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And you also at the same time need to be encouraging your employees to ask, why are we doing it this way? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because in some cases it may help them to understand it better. In others, they may have a better way of doing it. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: They have exposure to different tools and services and things. And so we need to take advantage of that and not shut down the conversation because they’re afraid to provide their own ideas and feedback to us. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So I think feedback is probably the number one thing. Once you do that, you start to prioritize the soft skills, you start to unbox creativity, and you start to create a level of trust that I think a lot of organizations don’t have. Chip Griffin: So let’s focus on feedback. It’ll help Gen Z, but it’ll also help our entire workforce in the agency world. Unfortunately, that’s going to draw this episode to a close, but if you have feedback for us, we would welcome it. We always like to hear what listeners have to say about whatever we talk about, however we do it, and all that kind of thing. So, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Hiring seasoned professionals sounds like it will solve a lot of headaches you have as an agency owner. But will it? In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of balancing senior and junior hires in agencies, highlighting the pros and cons of primarily staffing with senior level talent. They emphasize the need for clear expectations, relevant experience, and the importance of understanding what each hire truly needs to do before you commit to senior level hires. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Part of the challenge is because it’s expensive, it means that you also need to be expensive to your clients. So if you’re going to staff with high level, high priced people, that’s okay. As long as you can command the appropriate rates.” Gini Dietrich: “When you have senior level employees, not only do you have to pay them what they would command anywhere else, but you have to pay yourself the same or more than they’re getting.” Chip Griffin: “If you can’t let go, please, please do not waste your money on a senior hire because the last thing you want is a senior hire that you don’t even allow to work at a senior level because you felt compelled to micromanage them.” Gini Dietrich: “It’s going to evolve, it’s going to change, as you grow, as your business matures, so be okay with that fluidity.” Related Questions solo PR pros must ask before hiring first employee ALP 34: How to help junior agency employees grow Be smart about titles at your agency View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, I think we need to go out and hire some senior citizens. They’ll just, they’ll do this podcast for us. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: I would say right after this, but we don’t do that, that little Diddy music here anymore because we just have it before anyway, but no, not senior citizens, but we are, we are going to talk about seniors. And that’s senior hires and whether you’re professional, whether you should hire and staff your agency with primarily senior level talent. And I know this is something that’s very popular amongst some small agencies, particularly as they’re getting started. Maybe they’re getting started with a couple of partners with real experience. And so they’re, you know, it’s all senior on that basis. It might be that as you hire, you want to hire people who are like you or closer to you and experience so that you can offer that same, that same level of service to your clients by having people who have that level of experience. And there are certainly some pros to that, but there are also some significant cons that you need to think of before you have an agency that is staffed almost entirely by seniors or completely by seniors. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, when I, as I’ve grown my agency, one of the things I’ve looked at is doing that as well, and one of the pros for me is, you know, it takes a lot to coach and mentor a young professional, and we, you know, we’ve been virtual for a very long time, long before even the pandemic, and it’s really hard, it’s really challenging to bring in some, a young professional in that environment as well, so I’ve looked at the pros and cons For my own agency, it’s expensive, really expensive, and you may not get the same return that you do with some younger professionals, but in the end, what I have found is a good mix is usually for us the right place to be. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and as always, it depends, right. And there, you know, there are, there are models that work and certainly there are some, boutique consulting firms that have only senior level people and they can make a very good living. But part of the challenge is because it’s expensive, it means that you also need to be expensive to your clients. Yeah. And so, so if you’re going to staff with high level, high priced people, that’s okay. As long as you can command the appropriate rates. from your clients, which, which typically means you’re doing a higher level of service for them. You are primarily providing strategic and not doing the day to day of, of issuing press releases and doing media relations and all of those kinds of things that become really challenging to do economically if everybody is a senior. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and you, you will find that most people with several years of experience don’t want to do that work anymore, right? I mean, they spent their, the first parts of their careers doing that. So asking them to do media relations or write news releases or even manage communities and social media is not where they want to spend their time. They want to spend their time on the higher level stuff. So you have to figure out if that’s the kind of agency that you have, or if you’re doing, if your agency is all about being extra arms and legs for clients and doing the execution. Execution of campaigns that you have to have a good mix of different levels of experience in there. Chip Griffin: Well, I think that I, I think that mix is so important because there are, there are kinds of work that you need to do that as you point out, the seniors don’t want to do. And that are also not economical. And so if you’ve got a good mix, you can still offer that high level of service. I think the biggest challenge is as you’re getting started in the early stages, when you’re two, three, four employees, how do you balance this out? Because it’s really challenging at that point. If you want to have more seniors than just yourself. How do you price it effectively for it to make sense? And so, you know, I always encourage folks to model things out and say, okay, well, if this is how I was staffed and this is how we were doing work, you know, what would be my actual cost to service this client? And can I do it profitably or not? Because. And I see this all the time with agencies who have partners, right? If you, if you start an agency with more than one owner, it’s always challenging because that means from revenue level, the first dollar, you now have two mouths, two expensive mouths to feed, and it’s hard enough getting started in a business solo. Much harder when you’ve got two or three or more all at once. And so you need to think through and map it out. How does this work? How do we price to make this work? Can we actually sell that much revenue in order to be successful? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think that one of the things that agency owners tend to do. And we’ve talked about this ad nauseum, but we tend to say, Oh, well, my time is free, or I don’t have to pay myself, you know, a living salary. I’ll get it on the back end. And when you have senior level employees. Not only do you have to pay them what they would get command anywhere else, but you have to pay yourself the same or more than they’re getting. So it becomes pretty expensive, but to your point, if you map it out and say, okay, this is how we’re going to generate revenue to cover our expenses, which is, that’s what they are is expenses, yourself included. It can be done for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think part of it is also trying to sit down and say, okay, do I really need this senior level? I mean, I think sometimes we do it out of comfort because we like to work with smarter, more experienced people because we feel like that’s going to be easier to manage. I would dispute that. I think some very senior employees are actually more difficult to manage than juniors. It’s just, it’s different kinds of management, but I mean, I’ve worked with plenty of senior folks who are just really tough, from a manager perspective, because they come in with preconceived notions of everything and a way of doing things that is not yours. And it’s really hard. I mean, if I go in somewhere as an employee today, it’s going to be really hard to convince me to do things differently than I’ve done them for the last 30 years. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And so if you bring in someone with 10 or 20 years of experience, they’re going to, you know, Be the same way in all likelihood. And so you’re going to have to, to really shape them into what you want. And so you need to ask yourself, do I really need this? Or is it just out of comfort or the concept that I’m going for here? And so that really comes down to understanding and you should do this with every new hire. What do I actually need them to do? What value do I need to get from them? Because I think a lot of times, if you go through that exercise, you’ll find that only a very, very small percentage of what they’re doing would actually benefit from their, their, that senior level of experience. And if it’s only 10 percent of their time requires that, that may not be the best for your agency to hire at that level. Gini Dietrich: And one of the things we talked about last week is letting it go and giving up control. And if you’re not yet to that. position And you still are having a hard time letting it go and giving up control You’re going to have a lot harder time with a senior level employee who is who comes in. They won’t last long Because if you’re micromanaging them or you are trying to control the work that they do Or to your point trying to make them do things the way that you want them done When they’ve spent 20 or 30 years doing it their way like those things are going to create conflict pretty fast. O you also have to take a really good inward look and say, okay, am I a micromanager? Do I like to have control? Am I unwilling to give it up and to let it go? And if the answer to those things is yes, then a senior level employee is not the right fit for you. Now, You can listen to last week’s episode to, to, to learn why all of those things should change, but if that’s where you are right now in your, in your journey, do not bring in a senior level employee because it will create all sorts of animosity. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, if you can’t let go, please, please do not waste your money on a senior hire because the last thing you want is a senior hire that you don’t even allow to work at a senior level because you felt compelled to micromanage them because now you’ve gotten the worst of both worlds. You’re spending too much and you’re not actually helping yourself. So Gini Dietrich: yes, Chip Griffin: absolutely. Listen to last week’s episode, understand that you need to let it go. And that has to be part of the equation before you even think about it. But I think even more than that, you know, you need to think about. If the person is not going to be doing a lot of senior level work, can you come in and just, you know, sprinkle the magic dust that I like to talk about as an agency owner? And that is sufficient because you can get everything else off of your plate with say a mid level hire or even a more junior high as I think everybody knows, I don’t endorse Most small agencies hiring true junior entry level type employees. I think that’s a mistake, but you can get someone with two or three years of experience. Who’s had the business potty training as I like to call it. So you don’t have to go through that. Gini Dietrich: The business potty training. Chip Griffin: I want potty trained employees as a small agency. I don’t want to have to spend time explaining to you. How do you, you know, what is Zoom Etiquette? How do you, what is the basics of press release writing or, you know, You know, how do you judge what to post on, you know, social media, those kinds, let’s someone else deal with all of that, but I can still get someone in with two or three years of experience for a lot less than someone with 10 or 15. Absolutely. And so, so you really need to be clear with yourself. Do I really need somebody with that level of experience before you commit to spending that kind of money? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, just like anything else and anything else that we talk about, you have to, you have to outline the pros and the cons. What are the pros? What are the cons? And where is my agency in its Maturity right now because i’ve been through this as well. I I went through the whole process of hiring junior level employees and coaching them and mentoring and doing all those things which was fun, and I went through the process of hiring only senior level employees and that also was fun so you have to figure out what works for you in the moment and it’s going to change. It’s going to evolve It’s going to change, you know as you grow as your business matures, so be okay with that fluidity as well. Understand what works right now may not work in a year or five years from now and that’s okay. That’s totally okay. Chip Griffin: I love that you note that it will change over time. In fact, my view is that every hire changes your next hire. So it’s why I always advise against whether you’re in a large organization within a team hiring more than one person at a time or your small agency hiring more than one person at a time. Every time you hire one individual, it changes the entire team dynamic and it changes what in all likelihood you need in that next hire. Gini Dietrich: Great point. Chip Griffin: And so it is every single time you bring that new person in the door, it’s going to change what you need next. And you don’t really know how. Because until you see how the team dynamic evolves and you really understand what that person has, because I mean, let’s face it, when you hire somebody, it’s based off of a couple of hours of conversation, right? At most, at most. Gini Dietrich: At most, correct. Chip Griffin: You know, very little about that person that you’re hiring. And so until they actually come in, you don’t really know what you have. You got a general idea based on their experience and the conversations you’ve had, but you don’t really know. And you might find, geez, they’re really good at this. And so Now that’s a problem I don’t have that I thought I did, but they’re weak in some other area that I need to shore up the next time I hire. So be prepared for things to change. And I think that it’s a helpful exercise to reflect and not just assume, okay, well, my next hire is this. I, I was planning on this hire today and another hire this summer, and this is what they look like. And just sticking with that plan blindly. You need to update it as things evolve in your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I would say one of the things too, one of the challenges I’ve had is I, you know, it’s on the Spin Sucks side, I would call it more of a media company than an agency. And as we were building that and creating content that would become productized, I hired somebody who had done that for a magazine. And so I thought it would be an easy transition for him to go from one to the other. And it didn’t work. It didn’t work. We ended up hating one another. It was, it was a disaster. And, you know, hindsight, of course, 20/20, but reflecting back on that, from my perspective, I expected him to come in and take his experience and translate it directly and help me grow that side of the business. From his perspective, he had never done that before. He’d always worked for a magazine that had, you know, a publishing side and advertising and all of the resources he needed to be able to do the right kinds of editorial, which we didn’t have because we were just starting out. and so there was a lot of things that got lost in the communication of it. And he also wanted to be bonused on certain milestones that we never met because they didn’t. It didn’t translate the same way. And I think that I wasn’t mature enough in the, in my business growth and he didn’t understand what it was like on that sort of the other side of things. So you, but same thing we had a really, we’d had a few really great conversations. We were on the same path, like from a vision perspective, we just couldn’t make the execution of it work. So like, you have to understand that if you’re going to bring in somebody with experience and they, they have experience in something really specific like that, it may not translate the same way. So you have to you have to kind of figure all those pieces out and sometimes it is trial and error, which sucks. Sometimes that’s the way to do it too. Chip Griffin: Well, this idea of understanding the kind of experience they have is so important. Because oftentimes I see small agencies wanting to hire someone in and say, okay, you know, they’ve got this, this great senior level of experience with an Edelman or a large agency of some kind. And then you bring them in. And so junior hires, it’s less of an issue what kind of organization they’ve come from, but you can learn a little bit about it, but they’re still early enough on that, you know, and they were junior enough that that you probably have room to work. But if you hire someone with senior level experience, they’re going to be very influenced by where they’ve come from, whether that’s a large agency or client side or something like that. And you really, really want to make sure that if you’re hiring senior people for your agency, they have relevant experience in a small organization like yours. Because a senior level role in a small agency is very different from a senior level role in a large agency or on the client side or something like that, where you’ve got larger teams. And so you’re not responsible for the same kind of stuff. Yeah. That you’ve got to do if you’re on a team of five or 10 or 15. Yeah. And so understanding that, I mean, that, that can be a huge cultural disconnect. If you bring in somebody who is used to having people who help them with everything. Right. And now all of a sudden they have the title. It sounds good. They’re chief operating officer, they’re executive vice president, they’re something like that. And yet they are also having to, you know, wash the dishes or whatever, you know? I mean, that’s. Right. Yeah. But that’s the reality of a small agency, right? Everybody has to do a little bit of everything. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. I mean, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Somebody at that level is typically not going to want to write the news releases and manage the social media, right? They’re going to want to do really strategic stuff. And in some cases, to your point, they’re accustomed to having teams of people, not one or two people, but teams of people who are doing the work underneath them. So they are able to do strategic work where doing strategic work in your agency may be, may look differently. So, you know, I have a really good friend who works for one of the big agencies and all he does is crisis work. And he has enough experience that literally what they do is they send him in when there’s a crisis. On the day of, and he says, this is what you need to do. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then he leaves to go to the next, and the team comes in to execute. So if you hire somebody like that in your agency, , it’s not gonna work because there’s no, like, you can’t. There’s no infrastructure to support someone like that in the, in the way that they’ve become accustomed to. Chip Griffin: Right. And I think it’s, it’s so important that, I mean, with all new hires, but particularly at the senior level that you have expectations set clearly during the interview process. Yes. And so if there are parts of the job that are going to suck, make sure the potential new hire knows that before day one, because it doesn’t do you any good to convince them to join. And then they find out, Oh, I don’t have anybody to boss around. I don’t have anybody to help me with this or that. It’s all on me. Make sure they know that. And so I think a really helpful exercise in trying to figure out both what you need, as well as being able to set the expectation is to map out a 40 hour work week for your potential new hire. How do you see them actually spending time? I mean, that helps you understand what you really need and that this person is a real fit, but it allows you to share with that new hire. Here’s what your week might look like. And if it’s, if it’s going to be, you know, eight or 10 hours of press release writing and database updating, tell them that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: They may still say yes to something that they shouldn’t, but at least you did it in a way that you allowed them to have their eyes open and that they didn’t walk in on day one and think, oh, this is a total shocker to me. Gini Dietrich: That’s such great advice in general. Anytime you hire somebody, map out what 40 hours will look like so that you understand what you’re asking them to do and they understand what they’re walking into. That’s great advice no matter who you’re hiring. Such good advice. Chip Griffin: And that helps you figure out is this what I really need? Because a lot of times you think, I mean, I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve talked with agency owners who tell me that, you know, I need to hire, you know, someone to, to just, you know, do project management or operations or that kind of stuff. In fact, almost every agency owner I talk with says that that’s, that’s the first hire I need to get. The reality is there’s probably not that much truly operational. It depends on the business. There are agencies that do require it, but the vast majority don’t really have 40 hours a week of that. Right. So, so what are you going to fill the rest of their time with? And when you’re thinking about senior hires is if only four hours of their 40 is truly senior level advising clients and relationship and that kind of stuff. Is that what you really need? Or could you do those four hours and find someone else to fill the other 36? Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: Who’s at a more junior, more affordable level. Gini Dietrich: And then you’re happier so much. Chip Griffin: Right? Because it’s, I mean, the end result is what matters here, right? It’s not, it’s not some title on a piece of paper or what, you know, some expert like one of us tells you to do. I mean, by all means, if, if, you know, if we’re wrong for your agency and you need all senior hires and that’s really what works great, do it. We’re not telling you not to, yes. We’re just telling you think really hard before you do that, because more often than not, it becomes more difficult if you have very senior, very expensive mouths to feed on a regular basis. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes, indeed. Chip Griffin: With that, I think it’s time for me to go get some lunch and feed this mouth. So, I think we’ll draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

If you want your clients to be confident that your communications work is ethical, responsible, and measurable, becoming a PESO Model Certified Guide© is the best way to get there. Gini Dietrich answers your questions about the new program on this week's episode of the Spin Sucks podcast.

Chip and Gini discuss the intricacies of fractional leadership roles within clients. They share their experiences and provide advice on managing relationships, setting clear boundaries, handling administrative tasks, and positioning yourself accurately in these roles. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Fractional roles tend to work best when there’s a fractional amount of work to be done.” Gini Dietrich: “If there’s more than one decision maker, you have to ensure that all decision makers are on board with whatever you’ve negotiated in your contract.” Chip Griffin: “You get some of the best aspects of being an employee without all of the baggage that comes with it.” Gini Dietrich: “It’s a weird position to be in, to create a role and mentor and coach and train a team and then interview to find your replacement.” Related When your agency is an extension of the client's team View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we’re only going to have part of me today. Just a fraction. Oh boy. I guess if you’re, if you’re in listener land and not watching this video, that didn’t, that didn’t, but I, I went partially off camera while still trying to stay in relative proximity to the microphone. So you could still hear me. Gini Dietrich: So yeah, and I rolled my eyes, so there you go. Chip Griffin: But no, I thought that, that there was a good conversation in the Spin Sucks community talking about, going in as a, a fractional leader, within an agent or within a client rather. And so I thought that’s something that would be worthwhile discussing, particularly because it’s something that you’ve done yourself in the not too distant past. And so can speak to your personal experience on it. And, and I’ve done similar things as well. So, perhaps we can share some unique experiences along those lines. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. The, the gist of the conversation in the community was, I’ve been working with a company. And I use my team to help support the PR needs. Now the company is, is thinking about hiring an employee and would like me to direct that employee, based on, or, you know, manage them essentially. and it was, it was an interesting conversation for sure. Also, to your point, I do have that experience where I’ve, in many cases have become either the marketing director or chief marketing officer or chief communications officer for a client and directing their teams You know hiring, firing, all that kind of stuff there are some things to Consider and we again we are not attorneys or accountants. But there are things to consider from that perspective because if you are audited and you have somebody a fractional person you know, leading your team and hiring and firing and making those, those types of decisions. And that’s what they also do for their own business. There is some, you could get into some trouble from that perspective, but we’ve had really good luck with it. You know, we have right now, we probably have three clients, three of our clients that we serve in that capacity where we’re their marketing department. They don’t have anybody internally that runs marketing or has any marketing experience. So we do it all for them, you know, and, and depending on, you know, what It’s just like I’m an employee as their marketing. The executive person and then based on what they need and what we agree on the goals, I bring in different team members throughout the year to help get the work done. that piece is interesting. And then also the piece of this I actually just saw on LinkedIn, somebody said, whoever has decided to rebrand freelancer to fractional marketing director was brilliant. That’s essentially what it is. but you know, they’re Probably two years ago. It’s been almost two years now that I was there. I was a fractional chief communications officer for a company for several years. And my team didn’t do any of the work. They had a team internally who did the work and I managed and led and did reviews and onboarded and all of those kinds of things. I sat in executive team meetings. I mean, I was essentially a very, very part time employee is how they treated me. and I had to be paid differently because of that, because of the way that it, it works from an IRS perspective. but it works if you can figure that piece of it out and you’re careful about how it’s structured, it definitely works and it’s, For my, what I was trying to do. And the reason that I did it is because I don’t have any in house experience. So I wanted to have that experience to be able to round out my resume, but also to understand how people look at the work that we do internally versus having an agency do it so that I could round out that experience from a professional development perspective, too, to be able to coach people to say. If you’re thinking about this, this is how it’s handled with an agency, and this is how it’s handled in house. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think there’s, you know, there’s a number of things to look at here. One is sort of the business side of it and how you function that way. And the second is, as you’ve touched on, the administrative side of it, and how you handle some of those things. And so, you know, I guess I’m inclined to focus a little bit on some of the, the, painful, boring administrative stuff first and then, and then, and then talk a little bit more about some of the substance on the administrative side. As, as you note, you do have to be careful. Really the client is the one who has to be careful about how they are setting up your compensation and working with you, because if you, if you walk like an employee and you quack like an employee, you’re probably an employee. And so from their perspective, you know, they may want to protect themselves by paying you. As an employee or something like that, as opposed to paying you as an agency or freelancer or consultant or whatever. Now that said, I will tell you, it is quite common for that not to happen. I know of any number of cases, including myself in the past, who have done those kinds of engagements where you basically walk and quack like an employee, but you are not. So. Your mileage may vary. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to an accountant. Encourage your client to do that, to just make sure that you’re classed properly, because again, it is, it is largely on them. If there’s a problem, not on you. That said, the area where I think you need to protect yourself, if you are going into this, and you are not an employee is to make sure that you have clear written authorization for whatever it is that you are doing. And so some specific examples, In the event that you are signing contracts on behalf of that client, you should have written authority to execute either the specific contract or contracts generally and with specific guidelines because… for two reasons. One is because if you’re not an employee of the company, you probably can’t legally bind them by signing a document. So if you’re hiring a vendor and you sign it as a consultant, and you don’t have written authority to do it, you know, or clear documented authority, that contract may not hold up, which penalizes the vendor that’s been hired, but it could also be one of those things where if you sign it, you know, they can then – your client, if that relationship were to break down, they could come after you and say, you shouldn’t have signed this. You owe us the money to, you have to, to satisfy the requirements of this contract. So, so make sure, and, and that’s true on the employee side too. I mean, I think you, as a consultant, you need to be really careful about hiring, particularly firing, you know, but, but employee discipline, any of those kinds of things. You know, what I generally have done in the last 10 or 15 years, whenever I’ve been in that kind of situation, is not to have on paper authority over any employees, and I would simply be a dotted line, but they would have someone else who is an employee who would be their on paper supervisor, and I would make sure that that individual communicated proper HR stuff to them. Whether that’s raises, promotions, et cetera, I can certainly be deeply involved in it and they may even defer to my recommendation, but I treat it as a recommendation, frankly, to protect myself and secondarily to protect the client. So be careful about how you’re setting these things up if you are not an employee, because you are functioning differently and you’re potentially opening yourself up to, to problems down the road. If something goes sideways. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would also say one of the biggest challenges I had with one particular client is that, the, the president was the one who hired me and he and I worked out all the deal and had the paperwork and everything. And so from my perspective, I was quote unquote reporting to him. And the CEO had a different perspective on things, but it was never communicated to me. and he expected me to build a team internally, hire, interview, hire, do the whole thing as an employee and make those recommendations up the chain, as an employee. And I wasn’t doing that because A, it had never been communicated to me and B, I wasn’t an employee. So it came to a pretty big head where he was really angry with me. And I had to say to him, first of all, all you had to do was tell me. And secondly, I can’t really function in that matter because I’m not an employee. I have a business. I have my own team. I have my own, like all of this stuff. So if you’re looking for an employee, I’m not the right fit. If you’re looking for someone to help you, help you mentor and coach a young team that’s going to grow with your business, then I am the right fit. And he and I, I mean, for several months went head to head on that kind of stuff because he expected me to act like an employee. And I just wasn’t going to do it because I wasn’t an employee. He wanted me to fly to New York for meetings. He wanted me to be at all of their onsite. They had, they went from hybrid to, to fully in person and he wanted me three days a week there. And I was like, I’m not an employee. So it ended up. We ended up finishing the relationship because he and I just couldn’t come to an agreement. So I would say, I relay that story to help you understand that if there’s more than one decision maker, you have to ensure that all decision makers, all executives that have a hand in making the decision are on board with whatever the contract is, whatever you’ve negotiated. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think this is, you know, you’ve underscored what is fundamentally one of the problems with being a fractional employee from whatever standpoint that is. Whether you’re doing it as an agency owner or you’re doing it as a freelancer or that kind of thing. Fractional roles tend to work best when there’s a fractional amount of work to be done. Correct. The problem is that when it comes to marketing communications, there’s really no limit to the amount of things that you could do. And so it’s not like being a fractional head of HR or IT or something like that, where at some point in all likelihood, there just isn’t any more work to do. Yep. And so you have a natural end of the week. When you’re doing things like marketing and communications, you can always have more ideas and campaigns and initiatives and all that kind of stuff. So it is much harder to draw the line. And as much as you may put things in the scope of work to fence it off, either your expectations or the client’s expectations may be for more to be done. One of the challenges I’ve had in these kinds of roles is sitting there and saying, I know I’ve promised only a day a week or whatever it is, but you know, I, can I just leave them hanging? Like, I mean, if I’ve spent my eight hours for that week, but then there’s an important meeting coming up and I want to make sure that the perspective of the marketing team is being represented there. Yeah, I mean, sure, I can say I’m not going to go to that, but I’m sort of cutting off my nose to spite my face. And so if I want it to continue to be successful, I kind of need to do some of those things. And so trying to figure out how to manage that is much harder than it seems going in. And most agency owners, are really ambitious people who want to do a good job. And so drawing those lines becomes incredibly difficult. So I always counsel if I’ve got a client who’s looking at this kind of relationship, assume it is going to take way more time than you think. So if you think it’s going to take a day a week, charge them for two days a week, because it’s probably going to be closer to that by the time all is said and done. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I think there’s so much unknown too, because this isn’t a, If a professionally formulated position, it’s fairly new, you know, there’s a, there’s chief marketing, fractional chief marketing officers to your point, there’s fractional HR administrators, fractional IT, there are people that will come in with expertise that the business either can’t afford for full time or only needs them for a certain amount of time. So you have all these roles that, you know, it’s, it’s fairly new. And so there isn’t sort of that structure around what it looks like. And you do have to think about, okay, yeah, if you, if you’re a fractional one day a week, help freelance or whatever you want to call it, solopreneur, employee, whatever you want to call it. and there’s an important meeting on Wednesday or there’s an important offsite meeting or that’s going to last a week or, you know, whatever happens to be. And you’re only, you can’t really be like, well, I’m only being paid for one day. So there are lots of things to think about. And some of it comes with experience. Some of it comes with listening to people like us who have been through it. Some of it comes from asking questions in communities and forums, but, I will say though, that it is highly. Like I enjoy doing that. I enjoy having access to different types of people. In this case, I’m around my peers, so I’m around other people who are high level. It’s not just me as the agency owner running my business with my employees, but I’m around other, you know, senior level executives in a business. So I have access to the CFO and I have access to other business leaders. And I have access to a chief marketing officer as a peer, and that’s a different relationship. So for me, it was, it’s, I enjoy it. I enjoy it. It’s highly satisfactory. I learn a lot, you know, in the one client that we worked with for several years that we ended the relationship with, they had a chief marketing officer who’s probably the smartest person I’ve ever worked with ever hands down. And I learned so much from him just being there day to day, but I was definitely not one day a week. It was like 30 hours a week easily. So you, you, you have to really think through that and also be strong enough to say, You know what? We thought this was going to be one day a week, but it’s ended up being three or four. Yeah. How can we renegotiate this contract? Chip Griffin: I I’m just, I’m still just reeling from not being the smartest person you know, I, I just, I, I … Gini Dietrich: Chief marketing officer. I said chief marketing officer. All right. Chip Griffin: Okay. All right. Whew. Well, I feel, I feel better there. I mean, that was, that was, that was a close call then. I mean, I, I really enjoy those kinds of engagements, you know, whether it’s for a, you know, a traditional business or an agency or those kinds of things, I mean, to me, it’s incredibly enriching, it’s a learning experience. As you’ve pointed out, you, you get a different perspective on things. You know, for me, it’s in part, it’s like, you know, you get some of the best aspects of being an employee without all of the baggage that comes with it. Along with being a full time employee for any organization. And so, so I think there’s a lot of reasons why this can be appealing, you know, as long as you can figure out how to fence it appropriately so that you’re able to produce results that you’re happy with and the client is happy with. And it doesn’t damage the rest of your business. I think one of the ways to do that is to focus on doing these kinds of things on more of an interim basis, as opposed to completely open ended. It doesn’t mean that you have to have a date certain that it ends, but it should be for a transitional period. Understanding that at some point they’re probably going to need someone full time. And setting that expectation, both for yourself and for the client from the beginning, so that you’re taking it in that direction. And so that way you’re giving yourself an easier off ramp when it starts to feel more like being an actual employee and all of the baggage that comes with that. Gini Dietrich: I will say that, you know, we, To your point earlier about marketing and communications being a more open ended the way I’ve always done structured it is like for a certain amount of time based on the need to transition or to hire. Sometimes it’s for a quarter, sometimes it’s for six months, sometimes a little bit longer. But what I have found is that, that, that timeline always gets pushed out further and further and further. And I’ve also found that when you’re interviewing people for your role. They, they get a little skittish in the interview. They’re like, well, wait a second. Why are you leaving? And what, and, and you explain that you’re not an employee, you know, all the things, and they still get really skittish. They’re, they’re trying to understand, is there an ulterior motive here? Is there something going on that, that I’m, they’re not telling me about, are they not being honest? So there’s that piece of it, even though you’re very open and you’re being honest and you know, it really is I have my own business, but they, there’s, there’s, there’s still that like, But why? And I think part of it is because this is such a new way to approach working with, with organizations that not everybody’s accustomed to it. So there’s that piece of it too, you know, when you’re, and it’s, it’s a weird position to be in to, you know, create a role and mentor and coach and train a team and then interview to find your replacement. It’s a strange position to be in, but if you do it correctly you will be in that strange position. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, I mean, if you handle it well with people you’re interviewing, good candidates appreciate the fact that they will have someone who can help them with the transition. And so, so I’ve often seen that outcome, you know, where the, the prospective hires actually come to the point where they’re like, but now you’ll still be sticking around for a bit afterwards to help, you know, make this successful. Right? And, and so that’s something that you, Before you go hire your quote unquote replacement, you should be working out with your client to make sure that A, that is part of the roadmap, but I would encourage for it to be part of the roadmap because it can make a big difference versus most of the time when you’re hiring someone senior, who’s being just dropped in because whoever it was left to go somewhere else and there is no over. And so, so you now have an opportunity and frankly, you may be able to maintain some sort of consulting relationship that may still be beneficial for you and your agency going forward. So there’s a lot of reasons why you might want it to work out that way. The last thing that I would say on this fractional idea is make sure if you are positioning it as fractional, a fractional role, that that’s really what it is. Because what I see a lot of now is marketing agencies in particular saying, we’ll be your fractional CMO. And they don’t really mean it. They, they, they’re looking at it as a traditional agency relationship, where we do very, very specific things. If you are positioning yourself as a fractional senior leader within that organization, A, they are expecting you, they are not expecting your team. So this is different. We always tell you clients don’t care who. Here they do. Because you are positioning yourself that way. And secondly, if you’re positioning yourself that way, you really are at that point, simply selling your time. And I know that you, you don’t feel like that’s what you, but, but as an employee, you’re not, your scope of work really has to be more in times context, as opposed to based off of I’ll do three press releases and I’ll manage Google ads and that kind of, because ultimately, if they’re viewing you as a fractional employee, they want you to employee like things, which means it’s going to change from week to week. And so you need to be prepared for that. If that’s how you’re going to position it. If that’s not what you want to do, then sell regular agency services. Don’t call yourself a fractional CMO because you think it’ll make it easier to sell. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there are pros and cons to it, just like anything else. And you know, there, there are lots of lessons to learn for sure, but I think we can both say that it’s been For both of us, it’s been, you know, really beneficial. I’ve learned a ton more than I would have just staying on my own. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And for me, particularly, you know, because I’ve generally run small businesses of no more than, you know, 15, 20 people, it’s nice to be able to be part of a larger organization. And as you’ve mentioned, all that comes along with that – proper CFOs and HR teams and all of these kinds of things that you know, they’re, they’re, they’re fun to have as part of your week. I don’t necessarily enjoy them. Something I have to deal with every day. And my apologies to all of my HR and CFO friends out there. Cause I have a lot of you. In any case. All right. Well, I think that, you know, we, we gave a full measure of advice on being a fraction. At least that’s how I view it. So with that, that will draw to a conclusion this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Gini Dietrich is the founder of the influential Spin Sucks blog and author of "Spin Sucks: Communication and Reputation Management in the Digital Age." For the past 18 years, she has run and grown the Arment Dietrich agency, and currently hosts 3 podcasts, "Spin Sucks," "Inside PR," and "The Agency Leadership Podcast." Here, Gini shares how Spin Sucks went from a blog to a movement and explains why thought leaders must stand for something.Key Takeaways:- The Spin Sucks story- Why thought leaders should be bold- Why Gini loves AIEpisode Timeline:2:00 How to come up with podcast ideas3:20 Why is Taylor Swift a great marketer?5:00 How Spin Sucks grew from a blog to a movement7:00 Why ethics is the backbone of Spin Sucks9:15 How to define results with a client10:15 The PESO model13:15 The importance of creating authority and trust14:00 Gini on thought leadership17:00 Gini's thoughts on AIThis episode's guest:· Gini Dietrich· Spin Sucks.comSubscribe and leave a 5-star review: https://pod.link/1496390646Contact Us!• Join the conversation by leaving a comment!• Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Thanks for listening! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Employee complaints? Accountable only to yourself? Trying to create a work culture? Welcome to agency ownership! In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the challenges and frustrations of owning an agency, emphasizing the importance of seeking accountability and support, and reflecting on one’s own role in addressing issues. The discussion also includes reflections on past experiences and lessons learned, as they share insights for agency owners to effectively navigate their responsibilities and address issues in a constructive manner. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Instead of seeking to assign blame to somebody else, ask what you could do differently.” Gini Dietrich: “Put the process in place, have the right conversations, but don’t get mad at the employee for taking advantage of the situation.” Chip Griffin: “The culture of a small agency is a direct reflection of the owner.” Gini Dietrich: “We have to remember that just like we have complaints and frustrations, our employees do, too.” Related The value of outside perspective to agency owners How to avoid running an agency that employees think is crappy to work at View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini. I’m just fed up. I’ve had enough of this. I just, I can’t even tolerate this anymore. Gini Dietrich: Fine. Adios. Bye. Bye. Chip Griffin: Have you just ever felt frustrated with your agency? Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I mean, I, I would pull my hair out, but… Gini Dietrich: You don’t have any? Chip Griffin: Wouldn’t have much impact. Oh, I always tell people before I owned an agency, I had hair, which is true. Gini Dietrich: But you didn’t pull it out because of the agency, it’s no correlation. Chip Griffin: No correlation. No, maybe there’s correlation, but not causation. Gini Dietrich: Causation. Yeah. I mean, for sure. One of the things I think that’s really challenging about owning an agency is it’s, you know, the phrase it’s lonely at the top exists for a reason, because while we have may have lots of people around us, we don’t have people around us that we can talk to that are going through the same things that we are that have the same stresses that we do, that have put their whole life, blood and tears into the business like we have. And so it’s lonely, it’s lonely at the top. It’s frustrating. We find things from usually junior level employees that make us mad and, you know, I don’t know that we don’t understand. I think one of the biggest challenges as agency owners that we see is, you know, well, in my day, I didn’t do that. Like I wouldn’t have complained about working 14 hours a day and I wouldn’t have taken three weeks of vacation and I wouldn’t have and I wouldn’t. Well, that’s the reason you own a business. Most people do not own a business. So there are very frustrating things. It is lonely at the top, but there are things that you can do so that you can live your life happily and run an agency successfully. Chip Griffin: Also, to some degree, I call BS on a lot of those ways that that all of us… Gini Dietrich: You? No, really? Chip Griffin: Recollect the past and it’s a lot like, you know, the whole, you know, I walked uphill to school both ways. Right. And I think that that a lot of us as, as we become, let’s say more experienced tend to misremember some of those days. And you know, I don’t know about you, but I certainly had times where I complained about the amount of hours that I was working as an employee. Gini Dietrich: For sure! Yes! Chip Griffin: Even though I generally enjoyed what I was doing, and I, even from a young age, I was a workaholic, I, it, you still complain about it. Correct. And, and I remember many times sitting there being frustrated with the owners of the businesses that I was an employee of. Yes. It’s natural, and the fact that now as we sit in the owner’s chair and as the manager’s chair, that we think that it should somehow be different for our juniors today. That just doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t compute. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right. And you know, first of all, it’s human nature, just it’s humans, it’s human beings, right? So it doesn’t matter how much experience they have, how professional they are, you know, whether or not they’re just out of college, that doesn’t matter. That’s just how human beings are. Some days we have great days. Some days we have terrible days. Like my 10 year old occasionally will announce that it’s the world’s worst day because ever, because the internet doesn’t work right. Or it’s glitchy. Like you. That’s how human beings are. Always makes me laugh, though, because I’m like, I don’t think it’s the world’s worst day, but okay, and so, yeah, I think we have to remember that just like we have complaints and frustrations, they do too. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s the point, right? They’re complaining about their employees complaining. And so I’m, I’m always there. Just, just take a moment. Think through what you’re doing right now. How is that different? Gini Dietrich: It’s a good point. How is it different? Chip Griffin: Because to your point, it is human nature. Yeah. Everybody complains about something at one point or another. You can’t let it consume you. And you don’t want it to consume your employees if they are complaining, truly complaining constantly, not just you think they are because you heard it and you’re like, ah, I just, I can’t stand it. But if they truly are, then you need to address that. Gini Dietrich: Right. Of course. And that’s the thing as the agency owner, it’s your job to ensure that the culture is right, the morale is up. You know, if they are complaining about things that actually need to change that those things need to change and, you know, I tell the story all the time of how, and I’m sure I’ve told this, told it here is how, you know, when I had a, when I was just starting out and I had a young, workforce, everybody was complaining about being burned out and I couldn’t understand why, because their hours were nine to five and like they weren’t expected to do more than that. Some of them did do more than that. And I had a business coach that said to me, you are the problem because you are working like 20 hours a day. And so they expect that that’s what you, or they think that that’s what you expect. So if you really don’t want them working before nine or after five, you need to come to the office at 9 and you need to pack up and leave at 5. I don’t care if you do work in the morning beforehand. I don’t care if you do work in the evening after. As long as they don’t know that you’re working. So no emails, no slack messages, nothing that demonstrates to them that you’re working 20 hours a day. That you, from their perspective, you’re only working eight hours. Because if that’s what you truly expect of them, then you need to lead by example. And it’s the same kind of thing. If people are complaining, it’s because you typically are the problem. And it wasn’t until he sort of, he gave me some tough love and said that to me that I went, Oh yeah, you’re right. People don’t leave the office until I do. I don’t expect them to be there, but you’re right. They’re not leaving. And it wasn’t until he said that to me that I really understood that I was the problem, they were not. Chip Griffin: And that’s true for almost everything in the agency, almost every, if you have a problem with something that’s going on with your team or even clients, it comes back to you because it’s either something you’re doing or something that you did. It’s either you’re not bringing the right people on in terms of clients or employees, and you need to do a better job in your business development or your recruiting to get the right matches. It could be behavioral as you indicate with the burnout issue. It could be, you know, I have agency owners come say, well, you know, how do I create this kind of culture? Well, you can’t create culture. Right. Right. The culture of a small agency is a direct reflection of the owner. And so if you see something you don’t like, I will 99 percent guarantee that it’s because of something that you have done or did in the past, and you just don’t realize it. Gini Dietrich: I have a really good friend who runs a business, not an agency. But she said that she was really frustrated because a younger generation younger member of, of the workforce had taken a three week vacation unapproved. And I was like, how does that happen? And she said, well, I didn’t approve it. And I said, well, is that the process? Like, does, do you have to approve all vacations? And she said, no, she has a manager. And, you know, the manager approved it. I was like, okay, so it wasn’t unapproved. It was approved. You’re just mad that she took a three week vacation. And you have unlimited PTO and the person went through the process. So what’s the problem? Well, as I was, I’m covering it with her and she was not happy with me, but as I, as we were unpacking it, there, there is no, there is no real process. There’s no, they do have unlimited PTO, but there aren’t any guardrails in place, like saying you can only take such amount of time at one time, or you have to make sure that your, your time is covered, whatever happens to be. There were no guardrails. So. She was mad at the person for taking this three week vacation, but there weren’t any, there wasn’t anything in place to prevent that from happening. And again, that was a her problem, not an employee problem. Chip Griffin: Right? And if there’s anybody in that scenario to get mad at other than yourself, it’s the manager who approved it, right? You can’t – because it’s not unapproved time. If the employee followed as best, they understood what the proper process was and got the proper approvals. Then you either have to look to how you created the approval process or you need to talk to the person who gave their approval. Right. That’s right, right. If it’s anyone other than yourself, it is certainly not the employee. It’s that manager. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So put the process in place, have the right conversations, but don’t get mad at the employee. Good for them for taking advantage. They knew what to do. They got approval from the right. They went through the process that they thought they were supposed to do. Do you want someone taking three weeks off? Maybe not, but you have to be able to say, you can’t do this and here’s the employee handbook that says so, or something, right? You can’t just get mad at them because they did it and didn’t, there wasn’t a process that they were supposed to follow. Chip Griffin: Right. And I think the other thing is when you see these things happen, you have to be careful that you don’t overreact and then make it so difficult, right? Because I, that’s what I often see is something like this happens and then there’s an overcorrection and you say, okay, well, yeah, well now you can’t take… you know, more than a week at a time or we’re getting rid of unlimited PTO and we’re going to go back to, you know, 10 days a year or something stupid, you know, so, so there is a tendency. And this is not just with time off. I mean, I’ve seen this happen if a mistake gets made on a client, you put in so much process that it now becomes a hindrance in and of itself. So make sure that your, your course correction is not worse than the original error. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s kind of like when you’re in grade school and somebody in the class gets in trouble for something and then everybody else has to, suffers the consequence, right? It’s the same kind of thing. Like why should everybody else suffer the consequence because of this one situation? So yes, you should have process in place. You should have standard operating procedures. You should have things that you, expectations outlined and communicated consistently, but you don’t have to say, well, this person took three weeks off. So no more unlimited PTO. That’s the wrong thing to do. Chip Griffin: I think part of the problem is, to your original point, as an owner, it’s hard because it is lonely at the top, and so when these things happen, you often have the debate just within your own head. Right. Yep. And, and so You know, most of the time we are not good checks and balances on ourselves. And in a small agency, it’s, it’s less likely that you have a senior employee at all, who is more or less a peer. But to the extent that you do, it’s tough to get them to give you that truly candid advice. It can happen. And certainly if you can get that person in your business, I would encourage you to do so because you need in some fashion, you need to have some way to not be so lonely. So that you can express your concerns and complaints. So that you do have somebody who can say, Chip, that’s just, seriously, no bud, you can’t do that, that’s, that is not the solution here. You need that, that person or those persons, whether that is a senior employee, a friend, a spouse, a peer group, a consultant, something, someone, helps to alleviate that problem. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think if you, there, there, I, I think any and all of the above work, you know, having a senior employee work is a great way to do that. if you can’t afford that, or that’s not the right thing for your business, there’s, there are lots of peer groups, you know, there’s the Counselor’s Academy through PRSA, there’s Spin Sucks community. There’s the SAGA community. There are those kinds of peer groups. and then of course, there are consultants and business coaches as well. Like I’ve worked with a business coach my entire agency career and in some fashion, and those are the kinds of conversations that when I’m like, I’m so mad because they did this and this, where the coach is like, Let’s, let’s really think about this and look at, is it a them problem or a you problem? And sometimes it’s not what you want to hear, but sometimes it’s what you need to hear. Chip Griffin: And I mean, honestly, just even having somebody that you can vent those things to will often. Absolutely. It won’t solve the problem, but it relieves the pain enough that you’re less likely to do something silly as a result. I often joke with my clients that I’m basically a therapist because sometimes you just sit there and you just listen. And you let them, you let them get it off their chest and they kind of work it out. And then at the end, they’ll say something like, you know, well, I kind of know what I need to do, but I just. Yep. Just needed to, to be able to say it to someone. Gini Dietrich: And I think the accountability piece of it too, because one of the things I see a lot is when there is an employee that we leave, and I’m guilty of this as well, that we hang on to far longer than we should. So, you sit in, in a conversation with an agency owner and they vent in their, you know, they get that, get it off the chest, their chest, and in the end, they’re like, okay, this person needs to go, but then. They hang on and they hang on and cause they don’t want the confrontation and they don’t want the heat of firing and like all that stuff. Right. So they hang on longer than they should. When you have somebody that’s holding you accountable to it, I will say, let’s get this done. It’s going to suck. Here’s what has to happen and let’s do it by this date. And by gosh, if it’s not done by that date, you better bet you’re going to hear from me. So the accountability piece of it too. So it’s not just the therapy part of it, but it’s also the, you said you were going to do this. Let’s get it done. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And the problem solving aspect, right? It, it gives you the opportunity to talk things through bounce around. Well, you know, what if we did this? What if we did that? And so you can have someone like that who can share those, who can ask those questions, but then also someone who can share those experiences either because there’s someone who’s, who’s been in that seat before. Or in the case of some smaller peer groups, you might get together with a group of other owners and, and they can say, well, you know, I just had a similar issue last year and this is what we did. And this is, this is how it turned out. Yep. And so you can learn from all of those things and, and it often is much better than sitting there inside your own head. Absolutely. Stewing about how your employees are not, you know, up to par, you know, your clients are difficult, you know, it’s just, I don’t have enough time, all of these things, because all of them ultimately come back to you as the owner. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And because of that, it’s a lot of pressure. It’s a lot of stress. It’s a lot of anxiety. It’s a lot of sleepless nights. So find the resources that are going to make it easier for you. This podcast is a great one. Like if you have questions or things that you need help with, drop us a line and we can cover it on an upcoming episode. There are resources for you out there to make it less lonely at the top, for sure. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and I think that ultimately, if you approach most of the challenges that you’re having, and you don’t seek to assign blame to somebody else, but you ask what you could do differently. Gini Dietrich: Love that. Yep. Chip Griffin: There are times where, where it truly is not your fault. It truly is someone else’s fault. They truly need to be blamed, and fine, you can move on from there. But most of the time, there is something that you could do differently. In the future to have a different result. Gini Dietrich: Yep. I think that’s a great question. What if I’m frustrated, what is it that I could do differently? That’s a great question to ask yourself first. And like you said, there are going to be times. Like I, I remember many years ago, a woman that was actually in one of my peer groups, had an assistant that she discovered was for 20 years was stealing petty cash and it wasn’t enough for it to make a difference that they would notice it. I mean, it went 20 years without getting noticed. Right. But she did it originally because she needed a new refrigerator and couldn’t afford the fridge. So that’s why she did it originally. And then because she didn’t get caught, she just kept going and going and going. And I remember the business owner saying, The thing is, is if she just asked me, I would have bought her a new fridge. Because over the years, she had done things for her like that personally. Like she’d help get a car loan and you know, things like that. If she had just said, My fridge is on the fritz and I need some help, she would have done it. And so she, she came to a meeting, was looking inwardly and were like, Yeah, this isn’t a you problem, that’s a her problem. There’s nothing you could have done differently in this. So there are instances where it will be a them problem. If you can look inwardly first to see if it’s a you problem, that’s a good place to start. Chip Griffin: And for all of you young folks out there, petty cash is something that we used to have when we all used to work in an office and used to use. It’s it’s paper money. There was a day before Venmo and you know, and even corporate credit cards that were, everybody had. I mean, I remember when I first got started, almost no employee had a corporate credit card. Nowadays it seems like, you know, even the most junior person in a lot of agencies has a corporate credit card that they have access to. So this was a thing because there was a cash box or an envelope or a zippy, one of those zippy bank bags. And you guys haven’t seen those either. So we also had telephones on our desks. Gini Dietrich: We did. We did. Yeah. Yeah, we did. Had a cord. Couldn’t walk around with it. Chip Griffin: No, no, I remember at home, we had one with like a 50 foot cord so we could walk around the first floor, but then you had to be careful if you came around a corner because you could get clotheslined by it. Ah, the good old days. Well, I think, since we’ve started to veer off track here, we’ll bring this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close, but look in the mirror. Don’t be lonely at the top. Talk to somebody, get some help, and you can solve your problems. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

How do you deal with clients who ask for different payment terms than the ones your agency offers? In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of setting clear expectations from the start and being proactive in following up on overdue invoices. They offer different approaches and creative strategies for handling payment terms with clients. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “You don’t go into a restaurant and order dinner, have dinner, and then a month later pay for it. That’s just not how it works.” Chip Griffin: “If you want to be paid on time, you need to invoice on time.” Gini Dietrich: “Set the expectation, be clear about it, communicate it. And treat it like a business relationship.” Chip Griffin: “Anytime you’re willing to walk away, you’re much more likely to get the client to bend and give you what you need.” Related Beware of dangerous agency RFP terms and conditions How to do client collections right and get paid faster Payment terms for agency subcontractors View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we need to talk about, you know, how long it takes you to pay me for my time on this podcast. Gini Dietrich: Okay, no problem. Chip Griffin: Right after this. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like I’m always sitting there going to the mailbox looking for my check and it just never shows up. Gini Dietrich: Well, first of all, the fact that you’re going to your mailbox to look for a check says something. Secondly, you’re not going to get a check. Chip Griffin: What? Gini Dietrich: Sorry. Chip Griffin: But I, I thought the deal was you were paying me to be part of the show. No, darn. All right. Gini Dietrich: Well, now that you know that bye bye Chip Griffin: and that concludes this episode. Signing off forever. No, but I do think it is, it is helpful for us to talk about payment terms, because this is something that comes up all the time. I’ve had a number of conversations just in the last few weeks about it. It’s a question that came up in the Spin Sucks community recently as well. But, you know, trying to figure out what payment terms to accept as an agency. I think we all have our defaults, and we should talk about that, because I think some people are way too lenient in their default payment terms. And I think people should be more aggressive with what they’re setting out on the table as the agency. You know, in lieu of whatever the, the client may want, but sometimes clients will ask for even more than the agencies are offering. And so how do we handle that? So how would you like to go about doing this? What are your standard payment terms? Gini Dietrich: Well, ours, ours are 30 days. and I don’t accept anything more than that because my feeling is number one, I have people to pay, including myself. Number two, we’re not the bank. And number three, you don’t go into a restaurant and order dinner, have dinner, and then a month later pay for it. Like, that’s just not how it works. So, I understand that, you know, in the business world, it’s a little bit different in your invoicing and, you know, doing that, so it takes some time. But, I won’t accept anything less, more than 30 days, because it’s, it’s just not acceptable for us to be able to run our business in, in that way. I just, from a cashflow perspective. And I, in the past, have made the mistake of just letting clients do what they want and, you know, getting 90, 120, 150 days behind and suddenly you’re diving into a line of credit or you’re getting a loan to, to pay your bills and you’re not getting paid and that’s just not acceptable or not the bank. So I no longer accept anything longer than 30. Chip Griffin: So since. I know a lot of agency owners don’t have a background in finance or these kinds of things. Let’s talk a little bit more clearly about what we mean by 30 day payment terms, right? Because I think these terms get thrown around a lot. So let’s, let’s, let’s take a real world example. So you’ve got a client that you’re going to be working for in March. When do you send the invoice and when is it due? Gini Dietrich: So the way we do it is if we sign the, the client right now, we would send the invoice right now and we require a payment upfront. So usually it’s a month’s worth of retainer upfront. Along with the signed contract before we will start work. So if they have 30 day terms or they have 45 day terms, that’s fine, but we’re not starting work until we get a check or a wire transfer. We don’t get checks anymore. but that, and that’s the way that we work. And there have been occasion, especially with really large companies. We’ve worked with some of the Fortune 5, that they have, you know, 60 days or 90 days, 90 day terms. And I have said, listen, that’s fine. But we’re not starting work until we get a payment. And typically even the big guys will figure out a way to get you up, get you into the system and get you started and get you a deposit so that you can begin work. And then even if they have 90 day terms, you have three day, three months of deposit upfront so that you’re always working in a way that it works for you. So those are the ways that I sort of work around it. and depending on what their payment terms are, we may do more than a month in advance, but we definitely always ask for a month in advance and we will not start work until that happens. Chip Griffin: I think that’s really important to get at least that initial payment before you do any kind of work, whether certainly if it’s a project, if it’s a project, a hundred percent. Gini Dietrich: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, if it is retainer, I would still prefer to get it up front and that should be your, your default standpoint. But I think that, you know, rather than simply throwing around 30 day terms, I think it’s really important to understand exactly what, what you mean as the agency and what the client means by it, because your 30 day terms may not be the same as theirs. Because many organizations, when they say, you know, we have 30 day payment terms, what they mean is, you know, 30 days from the end of the month in which the services were rendered, right? That is a very common way for, for companies. If they say 30 day payment terms, what they mean is that the work that you did in March will be paid at the end of April. Yep. So, you know, you need to, avoid that and, and that is really 60 day payment terms at a minimum, if not more, frankly. Because I’m of the mindset that for most retainer based work, you should be paid by the first day of the month during which you’re providing the services. That should be your default position as an agency. So you should have the March fee in hand before March starts. As you note, there are ways around this where you can get a larger upfront. You know, you can call it a deposit, you can call it whatever you want, but, you know, so that you’re stacked up in such a way that even if they slow down on their payments, you’re still being made whole because of that initial payment. But, you know, you certainly want to be mindful of these terms and you need to be careful about accepting terms that you don’t frankly understand, that there’s not a meeting of the minds. Gini Dietrich: That’s really, it’s a really good point. Chip Griffin: About what it means to them versus what it means to you, because they are not the same thing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, they’re not the same thing. And to your point, if you send an invoice on February 29th, because we’re in a leap year for March services. You’re not going to get paid in, you’re probably not going to get paid in March. So I think the deposit up front is really important. If you… another way that that work is done is this is done in crisis a lot is you ask for a lump sum up front. So let’s say you ask for $20,000 or $25,000 up front and then you chip away at that money and then the client has to refill it as you go. So that’s another way you could do it is say, okay, we require a lump sum up front and then these are our payment terms across the board. The time to do that is when you’re signing the contract. Because when you, if you try to go back a year from now to do that with a client, they’re going to be like, but you’ve been working with us this whole time and it’s not been a problem. So the time to do it is upfront when you’re signing a new client. And I think with agency owners in general, and we’ve talked about this before that we tend to be people pleasers. And so we’re like, yeah, okay, whatever. That’s fine. Let’s just sign the contract and get to work. The problem with that is you’re not setting the expectation as a business. And so they don’t take you as seriously as they, you know, a year from now, as they would, if you said, listen, this is the way that we work. And you set the expectations and you communicate it clearly. We require a deposit up front. We require it with the signed contract before we, we begin any work. We invoice on the first day or the last day of every month. And we expect that payment will be made by the date. Like you set those expectations and you outline it very clearly and for the most part, clients are going to accept that. Now you are going to have procurement and things like that are going to put a wrench in some things, but there are ways to work around it. So set the expectation, be clear about it, communicate it. And treat it like a business relationship, not like a, Oh yeah, sure. We’re, we’re happy to help you do the work. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and you need to make sure that you’re holding up your end of the bargain there as well. Because one of the problems is that agencies are often incredibly inconsistent in their invoicing practices. And so if you want to be paid on time, you need to invoice on time. So if you want to be paid before the first of the month, you can’t send the invoice five days after the first of the month and expect they’re going to pay instantaneously, right? It does not work that way. So if you want to be paid, you need to be sending that invoice in a timely fashion so that they can meet the requirements that you have and that they’ve agreed to in the contract that they have signed with you. And you should not treat invoices as an afterthought, right? It’s not fun. It’s not enjoyable, but you need to get them out. You know, consistently every single month at the same time, whether that means that you’re doing it yourself or you have a bookkeeper. I don’t care how you do it. It just needs to happen on a consistent basis. Otherwise, I guarantee you that your payments will get behind. Gini Dietrich: And it can be automated today. You don’t have to do those manually anymore. So automate it, and guess what? It’ll go out at the same time, at the same date, every single month, and you don’t have to worry about it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. If you’ve got, if you have a consistent monthly retainer, there is no reason not to use your software to automate it for you. And even, even if you are one of those people, like I, you know, I just need to see it every month before it goes out, you can still automate that and it will, you know, ping you and say, Hey, this is, it’s created as a draft invoice. All you have to do is click approve and it will go out. So all of the systems are designed to address whatever manner of approach that you might have. And so it needs to happen because otherwise you will get behind. So, so what happens when an agency comes to, or sorry, a client comes to your agency and says, look, you know, our, our procurement rules are that, you know, it’s, it’s 60 days and we have no wiggle room. That’s what we’ve got to do. Gini Dietrich: So there’s, there have been a couple of opportunities where I’ve had the, where I’ve been able to have that conversation with a client or a brand new client. And I always explain, listen, I understand that. And here’s what we do. Here’s what we can do. So we will bill you two months in advance. So we’ll bill you for the 60 days. We’re going to do that right now. We’re going to get a contract signed. We’re going to get all the systems set up. But we’re not going to start any work until that’s paid. So if you’re wanting to start right now and not willing to wait the 60 days, we can put it on a credit card. We can, like, there are certain things that we can do. And most, especially big corporations that have payment terms like that, they have corporate credit cards that they can put your monthly retainer on. Unless your monthly retainer is $50 or $60,000 a month. Which most of us is not. They can put it on a corporate credit card. So have them put it on a corporate credit card and even if it’s just the first month or the first two months, they can do that because it typically falls underneath the number that has to be approved by finance before they can do that. So have them do that. So there are lots of different ways, but the point is, is that you have to be clear about how you work and what your expectations are and what you’re not willing to bend on. And for me, I’m not willing to bend on the 30 day payment terms. I’m just not. So we always look for other ways around and clients are always, especially when they really want to get started and they’re excited about, you know, starting in the new relationship, they’re almost always willing to work with you and figure out a way to get you paid. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think what you’ve just described is key. I mean, it’s the success in any negotiation. If you’re willing to hold fast, if you’re willing to just say, well, then we’re not going to have a deal. If you’re, if you’re willing to accept that as the outcome, you have the leverage to get changes in most cases. I will say there are, there are going to be exceptions to this. Sure. There are some companies that are much more hard and fast, but more importantly, some government agencies have rules that are unbendable. Effectively. And oftentimes when you’re working with government agencies, they simply have rules that they cannot pay in advance for anything. And so if that’s the case, and it’s, it’s a legal requirement that they have in whatever jurisdiction they’re in, you’re not going to get around it, so if you want to work with them, you’re going to have to concede to those. But anytime you’re willing to walk away, if you don’t get your way, you’re much more likely to get the client to bend and give you what you need. And so, if you’re going to be playing with the big boys who have the procurement departments and the rules around these things, I think you have to be willing to walk away when the terms are not satisfactory to you. Now, you may not settle on 30 as your, as your, you know, do or die, right? For you, maybe it’s 45 or 60. You need to figure out what’s right for you and your agency, because not everybody needs to necessarily abide by what Gini and I would do. but you need to know what your ground rules are and stick to them. Because if you, if you allow, well, you know, we’ll let 45 this time. Well, next time it’s 60 and the next one’s 90 and they kind of keep sliding. That’s where it becomes a real issue. Gini Dietrich: You know, I, and I also think that part of this that goes along with it too, is that clients who have 90 day terms usually or, or 60 days, they do that because the…we’re not working with big corporations. We’re not working with the Fortune 500. We’re working with small and medium sized businesses and they’re doing that because they’re trying to save cash as long as they can. And sometimes the cash for them runs out too. So they start to get behind and you don’t even realize that they’re behind because they have 90 day terms and all of a sudden there’s six months has gone by and they haven’t paid you. And that’s. That’s big. That’s big for a small business like yours. It’s big for a small business like theirs, or even a medium sized business, and it’s, it’s a really bad place for everyone to be in. So, with the exception of government agencies where they’re legally bound to not pay deposits or pay up front, you typically know they’re going to pay. They’re going to pay. They have multi year contracts. They have multi year payments. Like they’re going to pay. It’s the clients that are not the GEs and the, the big, big guys, the Apples and the Microsofts of the world. It’s the small and medium sized businesses that most of us work with. That if they try to do that, it’s typically because they’re trying to make their cash run, run longer. And you don’t want to be in a situation where they owe you six months worth of payments and you’re not going to get paid. Chip Griffin: Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s incredibly important. We need to underscore that because when you’re dealing with those larger organizations or government organizations that you that you know are good for it effectively right there, they are. They are good payers, just slow payers. That is very different from those who are basically running a Ponzi scheme to make sure to figure out how they can juggle their vendor payments in any given month in order to actually pay everybody. So, you know, certainly if it is, if it is a lesser known organization and a smaller organization, that’s when you have to be super careful about accepting these longer payment terms. Because you could be left holding a very expensive bag with well, nothing in it. So now I will say on the flip side, when you are dealing with large organizations who are good for it, the Fortune 100s, those kinds of things, there is, if you are bad at cash management yourself, there is a silver lining to these longer payment terms, which is effectively, it becomes severance when they end the contract, right? I mean, this is not what I would encourage. However, I have worked with agencies who had large corporate clients go away, but because they were slow payers, it gave them a lot more runway to make decisions, right? So if you are not going to, you know, to have a good, strong three month cash reserve, then having 90 day payment terms from a good payer effectively means that you built a cash reserve against that client, at least. Again, not advising it, but it is somewhat of a silver lining when those terms do exist and and it has helped some agencies that I know were not good at maintaining their reserves. And so when a large client went away, who was a 90 day payer, they basically got three months worth of client payments as if they were still part of their client roster. So not, not the way to do it, but something to be aware of. If you’ve got a client who’s already on those terms and you’re, I mean, once you’re, once they’re on those terms, they’re not going to go back. So you can at least look at them in, in, in that way that you have a lot more protection, if you will, with them because of those terms. That’s fair. It’s not because when you’re paid up front, the problem is, I mean, from a cash flow perspective, if they’re, if they’re always paying up front, as soon as they go away, your cash immediately evaporates. And so if you were counting on that for the next few months and didn’t have a cash reserve, now you’re in trouble. So again, not advising this as your approach. However, if you are in this situation, be aware of it because a lot of times owners don’t think about the fact that they basically do have this severance payment from the slower paying clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I would not. I would not, recommend that either, but Chip Griffin: The other thing I would say is whatever payment terms you agree to, make sure you enforce them, right? If you have, because, because even more important than the payment terms are making sure that the clients actually abide by them and they pay you in a timely fashion. And so, you know, I will have conversations with agency owners who will say, well, you know, they’re like a week late on their invoice. So in another week or so I’ll reach out to them. Nope. Nope. If they’re late, reach out to them right away. Now, ideally, you’ve got a bookkeeper or someone more junior who can do it. And ideally, get an accounting contact from that person, so that you don’t have to bother your client contact with this. Because a lot of times, frankly, it’s just bureaucracy. A lot of times it has nothing to do with them trying not to pay or something like that. Oftentimes it’s just, you know, it didn’t get into this week’s check run, so it’s going to be next week’s or, you know, whatever. I mean, all sorts of things happen, particularly the larger the organization that you’re dealing with. So if that’s the case, and you can have a low level contact on your side, reach a low level contact on their side, much better. But either way, just don’t let it go. The longer it goes, the harder it is to get paid. Gini Dietrich: And, and there have been situations that you’ve let, someone has let it go, and it’s been 60 or 90 days. And then suddenly you say to your client, Oh my gosh, we’re three months behind. We got to get this. And they’re like, what are you talking about? And they don’t know. When what’s worse is when it goes from like, say November, December and January, and now you’re in a new fiscal year. And they think they’ve closed out the year before. That’s a whole other thing. Chip Griffin: So that’s always make sure at the end, know your client’s fiscal year. And at the end of your client and your client’s fiscal year, by the way, may not be a calendar year. It behooves you to know what your fiscal years are for your clients, because you do want to make sure that everything gets settled before they get into the next fiscal year. Because particularly the larger the organization, the harder is, I mean, they all have ways to deal with it. So even if they say, well, that was last fiscal year, we can’t do anything about it. That’s baloney. They still, they’re – it’s a pain for them. So they’re going to hate you in the finance department. So don’t do it if you don’t have to, but there are ways to handle these kinds of things. But yeah, stay on top of it because the longer it goes, I mean, one of the first things I ask new clients for is a P and L, but more importantly, a balance sheet, and an accounts receivable update. So I can take a look and see, and what I’m always looking for is the 90 plus. Anything that sits in the 90 plus category, I immediately ask about, and if that’s a significant amount, then that’s a real warning sign because once invoices go more than 90 days past due, they start to become really stale and really hard to collect on, even if they’re an existing client. And one of the other things that can happen in addition to fiscal year’s breaking over is you can have your client contact leaves. And so if you are in a situation where you’re trying to collect from a payment from last October and your client contact has left, now you’re trying to get paid for it and the new person is like, I don’t know what happened last October. I have no idea. I can’t, you know, say whether they did the work correctly or not and whether they can get paid for it. So the longer you wait, the harder it is to get paid. So start in on it immediately. It doesn’t mean you have to call every single day and it doesn’t mean you have to be rude about it or anything like that. But you need to be persistent and make sure that they’re aware of it and that you’re trying to address it. And then at some point, and again you have to decide what’s right for you and that particular client, at some point you’re going to have to be much more direct and say we will stop work on this date if we do not get paid. There has to be that hard deadline otherwise there’s no incentive for them to address it. Gini Dietrich: And I will also add that the software also where you’re invoicing from has reminders set in. So all you have to do is check a box that says please send in a reminder this has not been paid by this date. And it just does it for you! Chip Griffin: And it will keep, it will keep doing it too in most cases, right? So you can have it go like every three, five, seven days, whatever you feel is the right rhythm. And again, you know, be reasonable about it. You don’t want to have it going every day because then people will just ignore it because it just becomes spam. So it needs to be frequently enough that you’re staying on top of it, but not so frequently that it just becomes stupid. and therefore not useful to you. So, but, but absolutely find ways to stay on top of these things because the more timely you get paid, the better it is for you as a business. And it’s not just because you’ve got the money to pay yourself and your team. It’s because you’re now running a healthy business in a healthy way. And you’ve got a healthy relationship with your clients as well, because it’s in your interest to be doing this. Gini Dietrich: It is. So keep an eye on things, be clear, set expectations, communicate what your expectations are, and I promise you that 99.9 percent of the time, clients will acquiesce. Chip Griffin: And if it’s awful payment terms, walk away, right? I mean, if you do not get the terms that you want, walk away. No piece of business is so important to you that you need to accept awful terms. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: On that, we’re going to walk away from this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Are you and your agency team spending too much time writing proposals, creating capabilities decks, and building brand personas? It may seem productive, but clients value results – and so should you. In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to get your agency’s time under control and offer advice on managing business development and project management to avoid the unnecessary and focus on real value creation. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “When you look at the total number of hours that agencies devote to these kinds of things, it is completely disproportionate to the return that they produce.” Gini Dietrich: “There’s one thing that clients care about. Results.” Chip Griffin: “Ask yourself, would you be happy writing a check out of your personal account for this proposal or capabilities deck?” Gini Dietrich: “Figure out a way to focus on the things that are going to generate a return for you, just like you would do with your client.” Related Real talk about agency websites What if agencies abandoned proposals and posted transparent pricing? View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, hold on. I just got to sit here and finish this game of Solitaire right after this. Gini Dietrich: Do people still play Solitaire? Chip Griffin: You know, I was just about to say that I suspect I’ve really dated myself there. All the younguns out there are like, what are you talking about? Gini Dietrich: What are you talking about? Yeah. Chip Griffin: It used to be the big office time waster. It did. People would sit there in Windows because Windows came installed with Solitaire. I don’t even know if it still is installed. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know either. I don’t know either. That’s funny. Chip Griffin: I had plenty of employees back years ago, 30 years ago, who would sit there and you’d walk by their desk and you’d see them playing Solitaire. Oh, it was very frustrating. Gini Dietrich: That is very frustrating. I would be very frustrated by that. Chip Griffin: But a common thing that I hear from agency owners are that team members are wasting their time in some fashion, not usually solitaire these days, but other things. Ironically, the owners themselves are wasting time on a lot of things as well. So I thought it would be Interesting to talk about. The biggest time wasters that agencies have. How are we not spending our time most effectively and what should we stop doing? Gini Dietrich: I remember when we had an office and we had an area that we called the energy center that was all the cubes for all the interns and like one and two what young professionals with one or two years of experience and they all sat in this this one area that was in the cubes. I remember walking past you had I had to go past there to go to the bathroom and I walked past there one day and they were on Facebook. Talking to each other on Facebook, like through the chat. And I was like, what are you guys doing? First of all, why are you on Facebook? Second of all, like, why are you? She’s right there! Talk to her right there! It was the weirdest thing, and I remember like, having this conundrum in my brain of They need to be on Facebook so they understand what we’re doing for clients, but at the same time, they’re wasting time. And so it was this weird dichotomy of what I was, how I was going to manage that because I don’t want them on Facebook all day personally, but I want them on Facebook all day professionally. And how do you mix those two? So it was, it was an interesting time waster conversation that I had with my senior leadership team, but also at the same time, like we have to be there for clients. So that’s one way that we waste time. I certainly am guilty of it. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think everybody finds those, you know, things throughout the day, whether that’s social media or, you know, for me back in the day, it was spending a lot of time just reading blogs, which sure. Chip Griffin: I mean, there was useful stuff there, but I mean, was it the highest, best use of my time for the amount of time I spent reading them? No, I mean, no, I probably should have shut down Spin Sucks and stopped reading, you know, but I kept reading. Gini Dietrich: Thank you for not. Chip Griffin: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I just, you know, tried to keep your unique user count up. Anyway, but, but I think, you know, so certainly there are those kinds of time wasters, but in my mind, I’m looking at some of the, the bigger things that we waste our time on either internally for our agency or frankly, even with clients. And so… Gini Dietrich: Capabilities decks. Chip Griffin: Capabilities decks. would be right near the top of the list. But I mean, in general, all sorts of collateral or things related to business development and an immense amount of time is wasted by agencies on unnecessary business development activities, capabilities, decks, RFPs, excessively long proposals, the website. Right. We’ve talked about all these things in different contexts, but when you look at the total number of hours that agencies devote to these kinds of things, it is completely disproportionate to the return that they produce. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we’ve certainly talked about capability decks in the past, and I know this is a hot button for you as well, but, You know, with things like that, I think we’re doing that to make ourselves feel better because now we have something to present. But we’ve also talked about on this show several times that when you go into a new business meeting as an, a small business, as a small agency owner, you’re not Fleishman Hillard, you’re not Edelman. You’re not one of the big guys. When you do that, you go. When you go in and you’re you think you have to present some big capabilities deck and talk about all the wonder how wonderful you are, you’re not going to win the business. But when you take the approach of and mindset of let me ask some really smart questions and get to know this person and their business and what their goals are and then sprinkle in well, we, you know, examples that you’ve had in the past without formalizing case studies or capabilities deck, you’re gonna have much better luck in converting that customer because, or that prospect, because no one literally no one wants to sit through a capabilities presentation, no one. And so it’s a big waste of time. It makes us feel better because we have nice case studies and we have nice testimonials and we have a nice capabilities deck, but literally nobody cares. No one. So don’t waste your time on it. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, it is, you really need to look at the results of the work that you’re producing, whether it’s for clients or for yourself. And a lot of those things, you’d be much better off having conversations with actual human beings, more human beings than spending the time sitting there and looking at PowerPoint and tweaking this and tweaking that or spending. I mean, I talked to a lot of agency owners who spend 20, 30, 40 hours or more on a single proposal. Collectively with their teams, and it just, it makes me sad. It makes me sad because you look at that and you’re like, you know, you are spending thousands of dollars to produce a proposal that frankly probably isn’t even going to get read that closely. It won’t get read. And isn’t going to make a material difference in all likelihood as to whether that piece of business closes or doesn’t close. Yep. And so, small agencies in particular who have very limited resources. Because if you’re not in Edelman, you don’t just have a whole department to throw at it, right? I mean, the larger agencies have entire, you know, design teams that will lay them out and do all this kind of stuff. And, you know, you’ve got interns you can throw bits and pieces of the research to, and you spread it out over a lot of people. And yes, it’s a lot of money, but it doesn’t have nearly the same impact. Because when it, when you’re a small agency and you’ve got, you know, five, 10 employees or fewer, and you’re devoting 40 hours to put together a proposal. That’s an incredible percentage of your available labor force that is being dedicated to a single piece of paper that may or may not ever produce anything. And so you need to be really smart about how you’re spending your time. Gini Dietrich: And I think in that instance, to your point, like, no, nobody reads it. And the first thing they do, the very first thing they do is open the PDF or the link, whatever you’ve sent them. And they go to the very last page to see how much it’ll cost. That’s what they do. And so I’ve actually stopped sending proposals entirely. And I will, I’ll have a new business meeting. I’ll ask questions. I’ll do all the things that you’re supposed to do in a new business meeting. I go back and I talk to the team and we put together some ideas. And then I say to the prospect, I’d like to have another conversation with you. And then we present those ideas and tell them how much we think it’s going to cost. And that’s it. That’s it. So it’s maybe three hours tops all in before we close a client, a new client. We don’t, we don’t put together a proposal. Now they may say, can you send, you like, can you add this to the scope of work on your contract or whatever happens to be and we’ll do it from that perspective. Right. But there’s no proposal. There’s no like, writing a plan ahead of time, which I know some agency owners are guilty of, and I used to be guilty of that as well. There’s none of that. Like all of the work you get paid to do once they’ve signed the contract and given you a deposit. No proposal writing, no spending that time. Chip Griffin: And we’re not talking, this is not just looking at it from a, you know, you want to get paid for your work standpoint. Because it is, I mean it is certainly that. Sure. But it is a pure waste of time because it doesn’t make a difference. Right. In whether you get the business or not. That’s right. And I cannot tell you how many agency owners I talk with who will tell me, Oh I owe so and so a proposal and this other group a proposal. And I talk to them and it turns out they’ve had a single call with each of them. How can you write a proposal? Right. From a single conversation with a prospect. That’s right. You cannot put together anything other than very broad brush strokes that shouldn’t take any time at all to produce. It should be, you know, basically boilerplate material that you’re passing along. Yeah. But I will say, it’s not just on the business development side that agencies waste a lot of time. Agencies waste a lot of time on a lot of other things. So, one of the other things I would throw out there is project management. I think that a lot of agencies waste time on unnecessary project management. Usually it’s because they went from no project management Now, now we need to spend time on project management. And so focusing on project management usually means creating a lot of processes and implementing a lot of new software because it makes us feel good. Like we’re again, it’s, it’s this feel good, right? Sometimes just doing work makes us feel good. Like we’re addressing a problem. And I’ve talked with some agency owners recently where, you know, they would like to bring in some freelance project managers or some project management outfits that help. The problem is you can have a beautiful Asana board that’s got all sorts of dependencies and click this and click that and fantastic. Is it actually making a difference in the outcomes? Because no project management’s a problem, but the pendulum often swings way too far in the other direction and you waste way too much time on this. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say other things, you know, from a customer, from a client perspective, are things like we get asked all the time for, can you create a, a one pager sell sheet? Can you do this? And I, I said, I I’ve gotten to the point with clients where I say, no, that’s sales enablement, that’s not communications. If you want us to look at the messaging that you’ve created to make sure it matches the brand and all that for sure, but no, we’re not gonna like, I think that kind of stuff from a sales perspective is on the client side is also a waste of time. Nobody’s opening your one pager. Nobody’s looking at your two page case study. No one. So why are we wasting time on it? And I think we also get into that whole, like, Oh, we’ve got to have a brand narrative and we have to do one pagers and we have to have multi page case studies and we have to have this and we have No, you don’t. Chip Griffin: Don’t forget the personas. Don’t forget all the time that gets spent building personas. Gini Dietrich: You know what? AI can do that for you in about 30 seconds if you really need it. Chip Griffin: I mean, look, and I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have a strategy and you shouldn’t have a clearly defined audience that you’re going after and all these things. It, it’s, that’s very diff, you can get a lot of that done in a fraction of the time if you don’t try to turn it into something that it’s not. And so, is there a time and place for a persona? Maybe. I don’t know. Most of the time, certainly for the agency, and most of the time for your clients, you don’t really need to get all that fancy. You do need to understand, who are we trying to reach? What kind of person are we trying to reach, but we don’t, but having it, you know, we’re, we’re reaching out to Sally and she’s this year, many years old and she’s got this kind of background and, oh my God, seriously? And the amount of time that I see spent on that kind of stuff is just mind boggling. Gini Dietrich: Okay. If you’re going to spend time on it, I’m telling you right now, open chat GPT and say to chat, prompt it, tell it, tell it that you need to create a brand persona for an HR director in Alabama that has two direct reports and like you’ll have it in 30 seconds and it’ll name it for you and it’ll give you their age like it’ll do everything in 30 seconds and now you have your brand persona so you don’t have to spend time on it. Chip Griffin: Right and why can’t you just say we’re trying to reach you know middle manager, middle manager PR types in this kind of an organization. I mean, it doesn’t need to be like this creative exercise. It’s not, that’s really not making a difference in the outcomes. And when we’re proposing things to clients, you know, we need to think about those things that are actually going to make a difference because clients want you to be strategic, but they don’t want you to spend a lot of time on strategy. That’s right. And so you need to figure out how to maximize the time that you are spending, so that you can be strategic, but you’re not being perceived to be just, you know, eating up lots and lots of hours doing these, you know, glorious plans that go nowhere. Gini Dietrich: There’s one thing that clients care about. Results. What would that be? It’s results. That’s all they care about. So as a business owner, that’s all you should care about are results. And as an agency owner that is servicing clients, that’s all you should care about is results. So if you can’t point to results from your brand narrative, or your capabilities presentation, or your case studies, or your brand personas, don’t do it. Focus on the things that will get results, because as a small agency owner, that is the number one thing that is going to get you cut from a budget every time. If you can demonstrate that you are helping your clients’ organizations grow, and you’re doing the same thing for your own organization as you’re building, You will not be cut. Because what a, what, what a CFO will look at and say, okay, this is, let’s say it’s $60,000 a year. This is a big line item, right? Then they’ll go to the, the mark, the chief marketer or the CEO or whoever it is that you, you report into and say, can we cut the $60,000? And if the CEO says, absolutely not, because we’re, we’re generating half a million bucks from that. Every year you will maintain your client, but if they can’t demonstrate that to their CFO, they’re like, okay, well, I guess they have to go. So focus on the things that get results and demonstrate those results over and over and over again. Brand personas and brand narratives and case studies – don’t do that. Don’t do it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I mean, I, I think a useful exercise here is whenever you’re undertaking a project for your agency or for a client, ask yourself, what are we trying to accomplish here? What are the results that we’re looking for? And then ask yourself, what are the, what is the minimum level that we need to put in in order to achieve that? It doesn’t mean you necessarily need to stay just at that minimum, right? But you need to understand what is the minimum allowed in order to accomplish that. And then be very, very clear about the amount of time that it takes above and beyond that minimum and that you’re really getting additional impact from that work. And if not, you should say no to it. Yes. Because these are all expenditures of, it’s not just time, it’s money, right? This is, this is your agency’s profits that you’re spending. And so it’s not just, you know, that we spent some time on this or that. No, yeah, I guess we could have done it a little bit differently. You are actually spending profits. And what are the profits? That’s the money you can put in your own pocket as the agency owner. So you need to ask yourself, would you be happy writing a check out of your personal account for this proposal or capabilities deck? And if I go to an agency owner and say, for this proposal that you’re putting together, you need to write a check for $5,000 out of your personal bank account, I guarantee you, most of these agency owners would say, heck no, I’m not going to do that. Nope. How can we do that cheaper? Yeah. So start thinking about it that way. Gini Dietrich: That’s a great way to look at it. Chip Griffin: Now you can carry this to an extreme, just like everything else. You can carry this to an extreme and you can be penny wise pound foolish. And they’re like, I’m not spending money on anything. Then it’s all going into my own pocket. Well, you’ll never grow that way either. But be ruthless as you’re looking at these expenditures and ask yourself, is it really worth the amount of money? That you’re spending to get it done, right? And don’t just run in and say, okay, well, you know, in order to save time, we’re going to, we’re going to get rid of meetings and we’re going to stop, you know, sending email and all these things, you know, that’s that those are the wrong things to look at, right? Meetings in and of themselves are not a problem. The structure of those meetings, the content of those meetings, that’s the problem. So don’t just go and say, okay, well, meetings are a waste of time. They are not. It’s the activities that they’re driving towards that may be a waste of time. And that’s what you need to look at. It’s not, it’s not the tool. It’s the objective. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s the number as well that, you know, I mean, if you, we, we went through a period in our, in my agency where we had a daily stand up. And I was like, this is dumb. Why are we doing this? Because the daily stand up always lasted, it was supposed to last 10 minutes. It always lasted a half an hour to 45 minutes. And there was no reason for it. Like, We were completely. Chip Griffin: And about half of that was probably just gossip. Gini Dietrich: It was, it was gossip. Yeah. It was like, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Or how your weekend was or whatever, which is fine, but there’s no need for that every single day. And so we got, got rid of that. So when you, when you look at all of the things that you’re doing, and I love the idea of looking at it from the perspective, if I had to write a check, if I had to write a check for this proposal, if I had to write a check for people’s time to be sitting in this meeting, if I had to write a check for these case studies, would I do it? And that’s a great way to look at it because if you’re not willing to pay for it personally, which you kind of are if you’re on, if you own an agency, especially if you’re an S corp, I am for it personally, figure out a way to get out of doing that stuff and only focus on the things that are going to generate a return for you, just like you would do with your client. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and agency owners complain about the tiniest little expenses on all sorts of stuff. I mean, we see this in the Spin Sucks community and, and all these small agencies wanting to, you know, to share a, a media database account or a medium. Those are things that can actually shorten the amount of time you’re spending on other things and you don’t want to spend money on that, which is probably in the hundreds of dollars a month. And yet. And yet you will spend $5,000 to put together a proposal based on a 45 minute phone call. Where is the logic there? And frankly, the amount of time that some people spend trying to figure out how to, you know, to save a few bucks on, on some of these kinds of software packages by sharing with someone. Why? Your time is valuable too. Gini Dietrich: Yes. It’s more valuable. It’s more valuable. Chip Griffin: And if those tools are not able to, at full price, deliver value to your clients, they’re probably not worth having at all. That’s right. Yes. So if you’re willing to nickel and dime those things, please, please look at these large expenditures of wasted time. Gini Dietrich: I love that. I love that advice. I love that you’re fired up about it. I love that you have to think about all of these things. I think one of the things that I do is I’ll look at it and say, okay, if, if somebody on my team has to do this, how much time will it take them? And then I multiply that by their hourly rate. Am I going to save money if I buy this software versus them doing it? Yes, I am. Chip Griffin: And please, please do the same calculation for your own time as the owner. Yes. Yes. Because I’m also tired of hearing, well, I couldn’t, I couldn’t give that. I heard this from an agency owner recently. I can’t give that to a freelancer because we’re not getting paid enough for it. So I have to do it myself. Gini Dietrich: Oh, that’s so common. That happens all the time. Your time is not free. Your time is not free. Your time is not free. But I hear that all the time too. Chip Griffin: So when you’re doing these time wasting calculations, it’s not just your team you need to look at. In fact, I would look at them only after I look at myself and say, what am I wasting time on? Yep. Absolutely. So stop playing solitaire or whatever it is you’re doing. Gini Dietrich: And stop giving your time away for free. Chip Griffin: And on that note, we’ll end this free broadcast of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

A lot of agencies have told Chip and Gini that 2023 was a bad year for them. Fellow agency adviser Karl Sakas posted on LinkedIn that he has been asked if it was bad for everyone. In this episode, Chip and Gini share their perspectives — along with things that positioned some agencies for success in what many experienced as a down year. Whether you had a good or bad year, there are lessons to take away to make 2024 and future years more successful. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “The lesson here is that things are cyclical. And you have to be ready for the ups and the downs.” Chip Griffin: “Fundamentally it comes down to this: you always need to keep your eye on ensuring that you are consistently bringing in profitable work.” Gini Dietrich: “In some cases, you’ve created the problem, so there’s no reason for you not to fix it.” Chip Griffin: “Take control. You are the boss.” Resources Karl Sakas’ LinkedIn post Who’s the Boss? Abed’s answer Related Webinar: What to do when you feel burned out as an agency owner Is business slowing down for agencies in 2023? View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, so glad 2023 is behind us. It was the worst year ever in the whole history. Worst. Gini Dietrich: Worst. Okay. Worst. Worst. All right. Let’s talk about it. Chip Griffin: All right. Right after this. Well, I mean, there, there was 2020, I suppose. Gini Dietrich: And there was 2009. Chip Griffin: Yeah, yeah. So maybe that’s not actually true. Gini Dietrich: Probably not. You might be exaggerating a little bit. Chip Griffin: I might be. I might be just trying to set up our topic for the day. I mean, it’s entirely possible. You might I might, I might have done that once or twice on this show in order to get started. Gini Dietrich: Yep. So. Hyperbole is where it’s at. Chip Griffin: But, but the reality is we’re going to talk about a post, by our friend Karl Sakas, who back, I don’t know, a couple of weeks ago posted on LinkedIn, that an agency CEO had asked him if 2023 was abnormally bad for agencies. And, the follow up was, do you think there is an issue in the market? Or is this just a phase of natural selection weeding out the ones who only ride the growth wave? So he goes on and we’ll link the, the, the full post in, the comments. His basic answer was. Yeah, he did think that the 2023 was bad for agencies. He acknowledges 2020, but says that was bad for everyone, not just agencies. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So my first question is can we agree that 2023 was bad for agencies generally? Gini Dietrich: Oh, that’s the question? Chip Griffin: That was a question. Yes, that was a question. That’s the question. Gini Dietrich: That’s the question. Chip Griffin: And for those of you watching on video, we once again have our doggy co host here, so. Gini Dietrich: She likes to hang out with us. Chip Griffin: So, so if you hear a little licking the microphone right now, licking noise on the microphone, that is not me. If you’re listening in audioland. And it is not Gini. Gini Dietrich: Or is it? Chip Griffin: It is the dog. It is definitely not. Gini Dietrich: you know, it’s funny. You ask that question now that I realize it’s a question. because a lot, I would say a majority of our Spin Sucks community complained last year about how bad it was and how hard it was to not just find new, fill the pipeline, but to close the prospects that said they were interested, like it was taking longer. Some were being, some were being ghosted and that kind of stuff. On the flip side, it was our best year in history. So I’m trying to figure out what the… like, it’s certainly, it’s not a focus, a huge focus group, right? It’s a focus group of a few hundred, not of thousands. But, I don’t know what the disconnect is or why it was great for some and not for others. But it literally, last year literally was our best year in history. So, but there has been a lot of conversation in the Spin Sucks community about how terrible it was. And. Lots, especially internationally, you know, there are some people from Ukraine, there are some people from Israel in the community and they certainly have reasons for it being a terrible year. But in the US, you know, they’re the economy and everybody kept talking about there was going to be a recession and then there wasn’t and like there was all this stuff, right? And certainly 2024 is not going to be better from a global or political perspective. so I think we have to figure out what the middle ground is and how to reach that so that we can continue to grow our agencies. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, I, I think that it is absolutely true that a not insignificant, not insignificant number of agencies did have a very tough 2023. What I will say though, is I I’m not certain that I would be comfortable saying that it was across the board bad for agencies. You know, when I look at, at my own client base at SAGA, I would say that to the best of my feeble minded recollection here. All of the clients that I had throughout the course of the year, in other words, they were clients throughout the whole year for coaching and that kind of stuff, all of them had either okay or great years, and I don’t think any of them had particularly bad ones. I certainly did work with some agencies on some specific challenges who did have bad years, right? So I certainly worked with agencies and saw inside that there were real issues with them. But I think it’s, it’s like oftentimes happened in the happens in the agency world. It is very dependent upon what sectors they’re focused on. Sure. So, so agencies that, that have focused on tech, for example, they have been hit pretty hard because the tech sector has laid off a lot of people and cut a lot of budgets. And when that’s happening, it’s natural that that’s going to ripple down to the agencies that, that serve that sector as well. So I guess I’m not really and I think probably one of the reasons why Karl is observing this is a lot of his agencies are more, as I understand it, more digital and tech focused and things like that. Although even then, I know some digital agencies, I work with some digital agencies that are doing quite well and, and had record years last year. So, I don’t think that, that I would generalize it quite that much. Gini Dietrich: No, I wouldn’t either. And as you’re talking, I was thinking through the clients, the coaching clients that I work with, and I have found the same as well. And the ones that have, that I have not worked with…that I only like did some coaching or advising like one off kinds of things. The issues were internally focused and not externally focused. So it was things like, you know, the CEO, the, the leader of the agency spending too much time in the day to day or not having the pricing correct or not understanding the financials clearly, or not having a pipeline. Like those were the big issues that I saw throughout the year versus. Clients not coming. Like one woman I talked to, she had probably a full year’s worth of pipeline, but just wasn’t getting proposals out. She just wasn’t doing them. And so that that’s an internal issue, right? That’s not an external issue. So it was stuff like that, that I saw not necessarily because. We were nervous about a recession or things were happening worldwide that were shutting things down. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s it. And the vast majority of the agencies that I worked with who did have struggles in 2023, there were specific reasons for it. And it wasn’t just like in 2020, well, everybody just kind of shut off the spigot and you know, what are you going to do? Right. There were actual problems with how the owner was spending their time, how things were priced, how much they invested because 2022 was a great year. And so they over indexed the fact that it was going to be another great year. And so they put themselves in a bad place cost structure wise. So, so I think in every single case that I’ve looked at, there were specific reasons for it as opposed to just a general. You know, stuff is happening with the, with the, again, the exception of those who are more focused on the tech sector. And I did see more widespread damage in anyone providing particularly PR services to the tech sector. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I, yeah, I would agree. Also, cannabis. I would say that industry is going into a pretty hard nosedive as well. So I would say that industry as well. I would agree that it has been one off types of things when you think about, and, and I don’t think here is going to be any better. And now certainly the economists are saying, okay, maybe the recession is not going to hit after all things are looking up from that perspective. But we’re also going in, in the U S here, we’re going into a little season for the, for president of the United States. and so that’s all going to throw these out of whack and throw a wrench into things. So, you know, I think the lesson here is that things are cyclical. And you have to be ready for the ups and the downs. And we’ve talked about, you know, all the things that need to go into that, keeping your pipeline full, making sure your pricing’s correct, not over servicing clients, all those things that we continue to talk about are the things that you should be focused on this year. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I think really fundamentally it comes down to, you always need to keep your eye on ensuring that you are consistently bringing in profitable work. And that that ties together a lot of these things here. But part of the reason why a lot of agencies get into trouble is because they see a good year. So they over invest and they say, well, I can, I can diminish my profits for a short term because we’re going to keep riding this wave. And if it does, if that wave doesn’t pan out, you get into trouble at the same time you start to see trouble. And so you start over servicing in order to keep them. Well, now you’ve screwed up your, your profitability yet again and just made things worse. So you now have less runway when you finally realize, Oh no, this isn’t just going to turn itself around. And so I think it’s, it is so vitally important that at all stages, whether things are going well or not going well to focus on making sure that you’re able to deliver great results for your clients while still generating profits for your business. And if you do those things, then you can weather most of these storms with the exception of truly global things like 2020. And then even then you’ll still be in a better position than agencies that haven’t done that. But certainly in, in waves like that, it can be more challenging to overcome that, even if you’ve managed your firm well leading up to it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there, there are going to be ups and downs no matter what, like that’s just the name of the game. And, you know, it’s funny, I had a conversation with a close friend who’s on the corporate side, in corporate communications. And it was funny to hear how he thinks about business and how much it’s changed. Like he’s so focused on, can I find stability in a paycheck? Where, you know, an agency owner is focused on how do I keep my pipeline strong and make sure my pricing is correct, understanding that I’m going to have a down year and some up years to, to balance it all out. And so I want you thinking less about corporate communications and, or a corporate job, you know, working inside a corporation and more about understanding that you are going to have down years, you’re going to have things out of our control, like the great recession and the global pandemic. You’re going to have things out of your, that you know are coming, but they’re still out of your control like a major election, you know. January has been a complete shit show for most of us because of the weather. I mean, our kids in Chicago have been to school five days since December 21st. Like it’s just been crazy. And I know we’re not the only ones affected, right? The whole country has been affected with. snow and cold and freezing rain where everything’s been shut down. So those are the things that are going to affect your business and you have to be prepared for that kind of stuff. Understanding that if you do all the things that you need to do to keep your pipeline strong, don’t panic, make sure that your pricing is correct, that you’re not over servicing, that you’re not panicking, that you will get the flip side on the other end. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And what you’re talking about is focusing on the fundamentals and it’s the same thing that, you know, coaches and sports will tell you. You know, if you’re, if you’re struggling to hit in baseball or make your shots in basketball, they, you know, they’ll always tell you, focus on the fundamentals, make sure that you’re getting the basic stuff, right. And things will turn around. You don’t need to go and do wildly different stuff. You know, you don’t need to, to go and decide that you’re going to completely change your stance or your style of playing basketball. If it’s worked for you before, odds are really good. It’s going to work for you again, but you need to focus on doing things well and doing them consistently. And so as an owner, that means making sure you’re taking control of your own time. Something that, that many owners struggle with and, and the tougher times get, the worse owners are about controlling their own time. And so that only causes the spiral to continue. So step back, grab control of how you are spending your time. It is the only resource you cannot get more of in your business. I know I say this a lot, but it’s true. Sit down, figure out what you’re spending your time on and then figure out what you should be spending your time on. Make the changes necessary to get you there because that will have a bigger impact on the success of your business than anything else. Gini Dietrich: I needed to hear that. Thank you. Chip Griffin: You’re welcome. I’ll send you a bill. Gini Dietrich: I mean, you’re right. And, and I’m, I had a really crappy week last week and I was thinking maybe I need to get up even earlier and spend more time. I needed to hear that. Thank you. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, I, I, I talk to agency owners all the time. You’ve got to track your time and sit down and say, okay, here’s, here’s where I’ve gotten to, and this is what I’m spending my time on. And, and you’re great about, you know, helping people to understand how you look at each individual task and you know, what bucket it goes into. And to me, if you sit there and you take a look and say, this is something only I can do, or this is something I can delegate. And then with the delegate, I like using a traffic light system, red, yellow, green. Red, absolutely hate this. I can delegate it. Let me get it off my plate. Green. Love it, even though I could delegate it, you know, maybe I can keep it if I’ve got the time. Yellow, you kind of figure out, you know, is it convenient enough to delegate it? Delegate it, if so, get it off your plate. Find a way to change how you spend your time. And it’s not just by spending more time or doing everyone else’s job. If you do those things, you might fix things kind of, sort of in the short term, but you’re just setting yourself up for a world of hurt. So take control of your own time. You are the boss. Gini Dietrich: You’re the boss, right. Chip Griffin: I mean, you are! It boggles my mind when I talk to agency owners and they’re like, ah, you know, I don’t like the way this happens or that. Well, who’s in charge? Right? The employees aren’t in charge, your contractors aren’t in charge, your clients aren’t in charge. You are. You decide who you’re going to work with, who you’re going to hire, and how you’re going to spend your time. If you have a problem, you are the one to solve it. Gini Dietrich: And in some cases, you’ve created the problem, so there’s no reason for you to keep it. Like, fix it! One of the biggest lessons that I’ve had as an agency owner is I am in charge of my own schedule. I don’t have to have a meeting at five o’clock every day. I don’t have to have a meeting, have meetings on Fridays if I don’t want to. I don’t have, like, I am in control of that. And so as long as you have set expectations with your team and your clients, to understand that these are, these are the boundaries in which we work, things are fine. Like, I have learned that over and over and over again, as long as clients understand where it’s coming from, they’re okay with it. Great. I just went to the Cayman Islands for 10 days over the holiday break. Clients were great. They were like, have a great time. Have fun. No, I didn’t hear from anyone. Nobody called, nobody texted, nobody emailed. They were like, how was your trip? Wanted to hear all about it. No one cared. So you’re in charge of those things. And that’s, that’s been a hard lesson for me too. Like, and understanding that as long as the work gets done, as long as there’s somebody that they can contact if there’s an emergency, and as long as you’re demonstrating results. They don’t care. They don’t care. Chip Griffin: They don’t. And, and it is something that, that owners have a hard time accepting. They think in a small agency, the client is expecting to see me, hear from me. And if I’m not there, I’m going to lose this business. The reality is that the vast majority of clients don’t care whether it’s you or a team member who’s there, as long as they’re getting what they need. If you are helping them produce results, it doesn’t matter who is sitting on the other end of the zoom call or responding to their emails. They just want stuff done. Now that doesn’t mean you can completely take yourself out of it. You still need to have a relationship with most of your clients as a small agency owner. You still need to come in and sprinkle the magic fairy dust from time to time and make them, you know, feel special and feel like you’re adding that extra value, even though your value may not even be all that much more than the person that you’ve assigned to it. They need to feel that occasionally, not all the time, not all the time. And if they don’t accept that, they’re probably not a good fit client for you. If they feel like, you know, I need to have Chip on every call. I need Chip to respond to every single email, no matter how mundane it may be. Well, maybe you need to move on and, and find a different client to work with because that’s, that’s not healthy. Gini Dietrich: Or charge them for that. Sure. Great. Like if they, if that’s the case. Then they pay a premium for that. And, and that’s what I tell clients all the time, happy, happy to do it, but you’re going to, you’re going to pay, you’re going to pay X more than you would if it’s someone from my team. And all 99.9 percent of the time that I, we had one client who was like, I don’t care, I don’t care what it costs. Okay, fine. but 99.9 percent of the time they’ll be like, no, I’m good. Just, you know, check in from time to time. And you’re like, great, that’s all they care about. I actually had a client say several years ago, and I’ll never forget this. He says to me, Gini, I own a business as well. And I understand that my time is limited as well. There’s no way that you personally can spend the time that you’re spending with me, which means you’re spending it with all of your clients because I know you and still grow your business. So, I would rather know that you’re growing your business so that you’re here 5 or 10 years from now. So we can keep working with you versus spending all your time with me. And I could have just hired you as an employee and I was like, thank you. . Chip Griffin: I think this is an important message for folks to hear if, if 2023 was a bad year for you and chances are, if you’ve continued listening, it’s because it was right. So maybe it’s why you clicked on this podcast episode. But if it was a tough year, the solution is not for you to lean in and do more yourself. The solution is to figure out what got you there and how you can address those specific issues that exist because, because they do exist. And the problem is if you don’t. If you just figure you can throw more of yourself into it and solve the problem that way, you will end up with burnout. And I just did a webinar on burnout. You can find the replay on the SAGA website, but burnout is a real issue with a lot of owners right now, in part because of this feeling that 2023 wasn’t great. And because of this feeling that I’m the only one who can fix it, which is true, but it’s not by working more hours. Right. You are the only one who can fix it because you make the decisions, not because you just keep throwing labor hours after it time and time again. You need to get control of the business that will help deal with burnout. It will help put you in a better place from a business perspective. And then 2024 can be a great year, no matter what the rest of the economic environment is doing. You’re not, you are not beholden to a bad or good economy. Good economy doesn’t mean you’re doing great. Bad economy doesn’t mean you’re doing terrible. What you do in your own business that matters. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And the thing about that is you don’t have to make a decision in a vacuum by yourself. One of the biggest lessons I learned in 2009 when I had to lay off the majority of my team was that I didn’t ask for any help from my team, and because from my perspective, I don’t want to burden them with this. I don’t, I don’t know what’s going to happen, so I don’t want them freaked out, but in the end, what I learned was that many of them, not all of them, but many of them said, I would have helped you kind of figure this out. And that was a relief to hear because it meant that I wasn’t alone and I didn’t have to make that decision in a vacuum and I probably could have made different decisions based on the fact that some of them were didn’t want to be laid off so they were willing to go part time or like there were things that we could have done differently in hindsight, of course, so you don’t have to make that decision alone. Like, there are plenty of people. If you work with contractors, call them and have a conversation. And. And be honest with them about where the business is and say, this is what I’m looking at. Let’s brainstorm some ideas, figure out how you can fix things if needed, but use the team around you. And, you know, SAGA community, the Spin Sucks community, there are people out there who will help you figure these things out. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and, and the sooner you recognize that there’s an issue and the sooner you ask for help from your employees, your contractors, your peers, your coach, whomever, the more likely you are to see a difference because if you, if you wait too long, it becomes much more difficult and you start to make decisions that aren’t going to hold up for the long-term because, you know, closing a revenue gap today, if it’s bad revenue, it doesn’t really help you, right? It, it, it gives you a little bit more, you know, peace of mind for a few days, maybe a few weeks. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm a few months if you’re super lucky. But the reality is, if that’s not a good piece of business, you’re just gonna reintroduce the hurt somewhere down the road, because you’re not gonna be able to scale appropriately. You’re not gonna be able to have other people take on the work and do it profitably and all that kind of stuff. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. So, and don’t spend more time, don’t spend more time. Chip Griffin: Don’t spend more time. More of your time in most cases is not going to make a meaningful difference. So figure out how to get it done without doing that. Take control. You are the boss. Gini Dietrich: You are the boss. Chip Griffin: With that. That will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

When Gini shared in a recent episode that her success has come from doing the same thing for 15 years, a listener pointed out that she has continued to evolve. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the best agencies usually combine the two. Rather than chasing trends, successful agencies consistently produce excellent results for a well-defined set of clients. At the same time, these high-performing agencies continue to evolve and adapt as tools and techniques change. In this episode, Chip and Gini elaborate on how to blend the two effectively — and pitfalls to avoid. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Some revolutions work. Many fail spectacularly. So, evolve instead.” Gini Dietrich: “Do it on your own dime, figure out what works and what doesn’t, and then launch it to clients later.” Chip Griffin: “The most important time to be consistent is when you’re struggling to generate business as an agency.” Gini Dietrich: “These are the kinds of things that you should be testing, not saying let’s put all our eggs into this basket and go for it.” Resources Are digital agencies dead? Spin Sucks podcast: Navigating the Communications Shift from Services to Solutions Related Expanding the service offerings of your media relations agency View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, I think we’re just going to do the same thing every episode. So we’ll just, we’ll say the same words over and over and over again. Gini Dietrich: So easy. Perfect. Chip Griffin: Right after this. I mean, then we could, we could turn this into a daily podcast. If we just record ourselves once and just play it in a loop. I mean, we could come out every hour on the hour. Gini Dietrich: I love it. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: Be like some of those awful TV commercials on cable news that just seem to run forever and ever and ever. No, I guess we probably shouldn’t do that. And as an agency, you ought to continue to evolve and not do the same thing over and over again. But I wanted to pick up on something that we talked about in a recent episode. I can’t remember now whether it was the last episode because they all blur together. I think it might have been the last episode, but it was a recent episode. Yeah. And, and one of the things that you said as part of that episode was that part of the reason why you have been successful is because you’ve been doing the same thing for 15 years. And I think we want to a clarify that you didn’t mean do the exact same thing over and over again for 15 years, but I think it is also helpful for us to look at the difference between evolving – which I think is important and chasing shiny objects, which is really what we were discouraging folks from doing in part in that last discussion where we, you know, we talked about, you know, the problem of being a Clubhouse agency or a cannabis agency or any of these other things that, that have come and gone over the years. And so, so how do you figure out how to evolve appropriately and, and have enough consistency that people know what to expect. from Arment Dietrich, but still keep up with the times. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, so I will clarify first and that is we have always been a communications firm and in the last 15 years, we have continued to be a communications firm. We haven’t been a social media agency. We haven’t been a content marketing agency, even though I love content marketing and we haven’t become a search engine marketing agency. We, we have always been a communications firm. We have added in the things that make sense as we’ve evolved. And during that time, I wrote two books, I went on a speaking tour, I launched the PESO model, I launched into undergrad programs at nearly every university in the country. Like, there are things that we have done to evolve the work that we do and to get better and become better experts, but we’ve always been a communications agency. Are we PESO model led agency for communication? Yes. That’s because that’s the way that I have evolved in my agency and then introduced it to the industry. But my point was that we didn’t, we didn’t say, okay, well, now we’re going to be a social media agency, and now we’re going to be a TikTok agency, and now we’re going to be a Clubhouse agency, and now we’re going to be an AI agency. We’re a communications firm, and we add those things in as appropriate. Chip Griffin: Right, and I think that’s, that’s vitally important, because you have absolutely evolved with the times. The tactics and techniques that you’re using today are not the same ones that you were using back in 2010 for example. There’s a lot of things that have come along between now and then. I mean, back then you didn’t have this phenomenally successful podcast called the Agency Leadership Podcast either. Gini Dietrich: For instance. Chip Griffin: I mean, so, and I, I, I think that’s probably the root of all of your current success. Right. Gini Dietrich: I’m sure it is. That’s what I point all of it to. Chip Griffin: Excellent. Excellent. But you know, I think that, that it’s understanding who you serve and understanding how you serve them that needs to remain as consistent as possible. Tweaks around the edges. But then how you do that needs to evolve with where your clients are, where their audiences are, their targets. And it’s not we all need to keep up with with what’s going on out there. But we need to be careful that we are not getting so far out ahead of our clients and their audiences as communicators that we’re now playing in a sandbox that is so tiny that it’s not going to benefit our actual clients. Because they care about their results today. They don’t, they’re not really focused on the fact that, you know, maybe in five years, their clients will be doing X, Y, or Z that they want to know where they are today and how we can help them. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. And I, you know, you said this in the last episode too, and you just repeated it now, but I think it’s, it’s worth repeating, which is who is your client and how do you service them? So you, your, your client, let’s say your client is a $10 million business that focuses on wellness and beauty. You, the tactics that you use to help them are going, should remain the same so that you can get, become an expert at it, and then you bring in artificial intelligence or you bring in different social media, or you bring in whatever the new shiny penny is, if it’s appropriate to help them get their results, but not focus solely on that. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and part of it too is looking at, at what is no longer working or no longer working as well. Sure. And so this is where, if you are a media relations focused agency, you need to be looking at other things. If you aren’t already, you need to be looking at other things to bring into the mix because media relations is becoming more difficult. There’s a lot fewer journalists out there to actually pitch on stuff. And, you know, a lot of what you’re getting out there doesn’t have the same level of impact today as it did 10, 20 years ago. And so you need to be thinking about how do you weave in more of the paid, shared, owned, all those aspects of the PESO model and frankly other stuff, right? I mean, how can you do other things that help your clients to meet their goals and are adjacent to what you’re doing already, right? I always encourage you, if you’re going to expand your set of services, and I think we had an episode about this a long time ago, but if you’re going to expand the services that you’re providing, keep them at initially as adjacent to things you’re already offering rather than starting something that’s completely disconnected, right? Because that’s where you’re more likely to have success because what you’re doing is an incremental change. So it’s, it’s easier on you. It’s easier on your team. It’s easier on your clients. If you all of a sudden go off in a wildly different direction. That’s where it becomes much more challenging. So, you know, if you’re a media relations agency, I, you know, you might not start with, I don’t know, putting on major conferences and running events as your, you know, as your additional service, you may want to, if you’re going to go down the events route, go something smaller, start with webinars, then, you know, maybe move to small in person events, things that are more akin to what you’ve already been providing to your clients and that your team is experienced with, because that’s how you can evolve as opposed to just chasing those shiny objects. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And to, to continue to use that example, if you’re a media relations agency and you want to add in content marketing, then one of the things that’s easy to do is to add on contributed content. So now you’re still using your earned media chops and you’re using your owned media chops because you’re, you’re probably going to have to produce that content for the client once you, you place it. So now you can add that on. You can add on podcast pitching. Like there are other things that you can add on that are ancillary to the business that you already have to help you grow into those areas without saying okay Now we’re a content marketing agency. Let us write all your content for you Chip Griffin: Right and evolving one step at a time is helpful too, right? So if you want to go down that content marketing path starting with contributed content and not saying we’re going to do contributed content and we’re going to do blogs and we’re going to do You know online magazines and we’re gonna do podcasts and we’re gonna do video and we’re gonna do all these things all at once. All right Pick incremental steps because that way you can start implementing it. You can test it. You can see how it works with your own processes as an agency. You can see how it produces results for clients. You can see how you can generate profits and how to price it correctly. If you do all of those things, you’re putting yourself in a much better position to continue that evolution as opposed to trying to turn it into some sudden revolution that may or may not work, right? I mean, some revolutions work. Right. Many fail spectacularly. So evolve instead. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And one of the things that we always do is we, do the work on ourselves first. So, you know, when blogging became, it was starting to like hit the main waves, we launched Spin Sucks. It was terrible. It was horrible. But, because we did it on ourselves first and we figured out what was going to make it less terrible and actually work, then we were able to launch it to clients because we already understood how it worked, what worked well, what didn’t work well, what you needed to include, how to use it for, you know, certain different kinds of results. We already knew that by the time we launched it to clients because we had tested it on ourselves first. So that’s a way to do it too versus instead of saying, well, We’re going to add all this stuff on for services so that we can grow our clients and then failing spectacularly because in a lot of cases you’ll fail. And you don’t want to do that on the client’s dime, so do it on your own dime, figure out what works and what doesn’t, and then launch it to clients later. Chip Griffin: Right, and you’ll push the envelope a lot more effectively if, if you know that you have that safety net of it’s, it’s just your own stuff that’s being risked. Yep, yep, absolutely, yes. Right, and, and frankly most of the things that, that we would experiment with are not going to be completely destructive to the agency. They may fail. But that’s different from causing any actual lasting damage and, and the vast majority, I mean, unless you’re going out and doing something truly nutty, in which case you probably have a larger problem than the suite of services you’re offering, you’re probably going to be okay. And so if you treat yourself as your best test subject, you will be able to learn these things. And oh, by the way, you’ll actually probably end up helping the agency in the process. Because as you perfect it you will be able to help attract more good clients. You will be able to produce better results for clients. So all of the things that you will achieve by testing things on yourself will carry the ball forward more effectively than, you know, almost anything else you can do. And certainly more than just chasing that latest trend that you read about in, in PR Week, or you saw on someone’s blog post, or you heard about on a podcast or that, you know, Gini talked about in her latest talk. You know, those, those are all things to absorb and think about. They’re not necessarily things that you need to throw out what you’re doing today and pursue. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you know, it’s funny because I did a recent Spin Sucks podcast episode on the idea that, that digital agencies are dying, which was the topic of ours. And I referred back to this, this podcast, of course, but I took a little bit different slant on it. And I said, Here are some things you should be thinking about. And, you know, from an artificial intelligence perspective, Open AI just launched ChatGPT, their store. and you can also create your own GPT to personalize and do that things with clients. And a girlfriend texted me and was like, well, wait, what, what? And like got all absorbed in the fact that she could. Create GPT products that she could then sell the clients. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Test it. Figure out what works, what doesn’t, how you might use it with clients. But I’m not telling you to go into the store and create something and then sell that product to clients. Please don’t do that. We’re not ready for that. No one’s ready for that. Please don’t do that. To your point, like there are things that you’ll want to test. Like if you’re using social media, you’re going to use TikTok differently than you’re using Instagram. You know, maybe you’ve scaled clear back on, on Twitter and you know, or X, whatever you’re supposed to call it now. Like, those are the kinds of things that you should be testing, not saying, okay, well, let’s put all our eggs into this basket and go for it. Chip Griffin: But the other thing I’d like to say about the importance of evolving rather than, you know, sudden changes and you know, the importance of having consistency in what you’re doing as an agency. I think the most important time is counterintuitive. It’s when you’re having trouble,you’re struggling to generate business as an agency. . And this is when I often see agencies say, well, you know, I’m really struggling to get clients. We’ve lost a bunch of clients. So I need to change up entirely what I’m doing. So I think we ought to be, you know, we ought to go from being a media relations agency to, you know, an inbound marketing agency, or, you know, we should, completely change our target audience. We should focus just on cannabis or crypto or whatever, because that’s what we hear is big today and we need to give up on, you know, retail or restaurants or whatever it was we were doing before. The reality is that assuming that you’ve had an agency that has been able to generate business in the past, and this does assume that you did have success at one point, you should lean back into that success. Figure out how to evolve it for the current market. Figure out, you know, why are you struggling? Is it because you’re not out there having conversations? Is it because you got a bunch of low hanging fruit in your first few years and now you really have to be more intentional about your business development? What is it that you need to change from a business development standpoint? And perhaps what evolution should there be to the business? But generally speaking, you want to lean into what you had success with in the past in terms of services that you were offering and the kind of clients you were going after, because you’re much more likely to be able to replicate that than to do something entirely different from a services or targeting standpoint. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s what you know. So you’re an expert in it. So that it makes you more compelling in general because of that. So don’t try to like do something completely different just because you’re stressed out that business isn’t coming. That’s not the right approach. I completely agree with you. Chip Griffin: Right. And it is, it is the hardest. I mean, I, I get that it is hard to resist big change when you have big problems. Becaue, in your mind, I’ve got this giant gap I need to close and you sit there and say, well, I’ve already been trying. And the reality is maybe you have been trying, but take a look and see, you know, what tweaks could you make to what you were trying before. And candidly, a lot of times people haven’t been trying as hard as they think they have because they, in part, because they’ve already started to panic, right? As soon as, as soon as you start losing business or revenue starts looking bad. You start to panic and you start making bad decisions and you start becoming scattered, right? Because one of the things I see is that agencies that are struggling will often then launch 10 different initiatives to try to get clients because they’re like, if I just, if I do all these things, maybe something will pay off. Maybe it will, but you’re much more likely to have success. Just if you, if you look at the evidence, you’re much more likely to have success if you pick one or perhaps two things and just do them well, do them consistently, and that’s how you will attract the business that you need in order to dig out of that hole and then move on to your next level of success. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and it’s, I mean, you’ll be more comfortable. You’ll have more success. You have a better, you have better expertise. Like there’s all the, all these ancillary benefits that come along with it. Add in the other stuff later. Don’t do it when you’re stressed out and need to have, generate revenue really fast. Chip Griffin: So I think our bottom line message is that it’s important to be consistent in what you’re doing, who you’re serving, and how you’re doing it, because that is how you will have long term success instead of being the person who chases whatever the trend of the day is, sort of like a dog might. You know, just chasing whatever is in front of them and for those of you listening for those of you listening in audio you do not see that we have a guest co host That the doggie intern has joined us And it appears the doggie intern is the doggie intern wearing a sweater or something? Gini Dietrich: She is wearing…yes, because it’s 5, 000 degrees below zero outside. Chip Griffin: But yet she’s inside. And I’m assuming that it’s not 5,000 degrees below zero inside. Gini Dietrich: It’s not inside, but she has to go out, which is why I’m holding her because I don’t want her to pee on the floor. Chip Griffin: On that note, I think we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close, both because I don’t want the dog to have an accident and because I just don’t even know where to take this from there. So I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: Say bye bye. I’m Olivia Benson. Say bye bye Olivia. I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends. Or maybe the dog needs Depends. I don’t know. Gini Dietrich: You’re right.

It seems so alluring to be able to put a Fortune 500 logo on your agency’s website. Many of us dream of the creative things that we can do for these household names. Yet often these big brands end up being bad deals for small agencies. They are time-consuming to sell, difficult to service, and often subject to onerous contractual terms. In this episode, Chip and Gini take a look at the appeal presented by these opportunities, along with the risk that they present. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “You would think that big brands equals big dollars equals fast growth, but it doesn’t.” Chip Griffin: “I’m not going to tell you that every big brand is awful to work with. Or maybe I will. Most of them are pretty bad.” Gini Dietrich: “You’ve had to go through the RFP process, the procurement process, the ridiculous payment terms, and now you can’t even use their logo to help you build your business.” Chip Griffin: “You need to be intelligent and deliberate and intentional about what kind of business that you’re seeking and make sure you’re doing it for the right reasons.” Related Beware of dangerous agency RFP terms and conditions How agencies should handle procurement and legal View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini I think we need to get this show on, on ABC or, or CNN or something like that. That’s our mission, just to make sure that we get it on some big network, NPR. Absolutely. Okay. Right after this. Ah, yes. Everybody wants the big logos for their agency. Yep. And I don’t think we’re going to be on NPR or ABC with this show anytime soon. I think it’s pretty unlikely. Gini Dietrich: The audience is too small. Chip Griffin: Yeah. It’s a pretty narrow audience. Right. I don’t think we would get the ratings that would, you know, light up the Nielsen book, so. No. So I think probably we should, you know, be more realistic in our expectations and spend our time and effort in more productive ways. Right. Agencies should probably do the same thing. Correct. Particularly small agencies because I don’t know about you, but I talked to a lot of small agencies who just, they have stars in their eyes and they see these, these large brands out there and they put out an RFP and they’re like, Oh, I could do this for Coca Cola. This would be great if we got this. Yeah, not a good idea. Gini Dietrich: Not a good idea. No. And I, I will admit that I’ve been there like at the beginning of my business. That’s how I thought I was going to grow it right? Because I think you see big brands equals big dollars equals fast growth. And it’s an in your mind, I think it’s an easy way to grow fast without having to, you know, chunk away 5000 a month 5, 000 a month clients over and over and over again, which is true. But you can do that kind of growth without going after the big brands and all the things that come along with it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And it’s not always just, you know, big as in, you know, absolute dollar size, right? Because if you’re in a particular niche, you may be, you know, there may be certain brands that everybody wants to work with, even though it’s a small space, right? I mean, in our space, everybody wants to work with Spin Sucks. So everybody wants to, you know, to pitch you on working with you. The problem with that is that everybody is doing it. And so you are now one of many who are trying to reach out to whatever that logo is, whether we’re talking about a Coca Cola or someone big in an individual space. And so the work is much harder to get. Generally, the leverage, whoever you’re working to get the business off, they know they have the leverage. And I’ve worked with a lot of big brands over the years. And I can tell you that they’re almost uniformly terrible to work with because they know that they are big enough that that they are going to be the ones who have the leverage and can tell you to do anything they want and you will do it because you want to keep the business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. Who was it? Remind me who it was like earlier this year that, that did the RFP big brand and had like a year before they would pay anybody. Who was that? Chip Griffin: I want to say it was a better, was it Dr. Pepper or something like that? Yeah. Someone like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was someone like that. And if I’ve maligned Dr. Pepper improperly here, my apologies. It was for some reason that’s what sticks in my head. So. Gini Dietrich: But the, the, the thing is, is that They, they threw that out there. We’re not going to pay you for a year because they know that agencies are going to do it. And they, like, even though many of us were like, this is ridiculous. And all of the PR trade said, this is ridiculous. They still found an agency to agree to those terms. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And it’s just, there is no brand that is worth it to work with under those kinds of terms. There is no brand that is worth it to be able to put on your logo page that, you know, where you talk about, Oh, we, you know, these are our clients. None of them are worth it for all that comes along with it. Now, if you can find the exact right relationship that works great, they do exist out there. I mean, I’m not going to tell you that every brand, big brand is awful to work with. Or maybe I will, I don’t know. Most of them are pretty bad again, because they know they have the, anytime, you know, that in a relationship, anytime, you know, that you have extreme leverage over the other party, even if you have the best of intentions, you’re still going to end up taking advantage of it. It’s just human nature to do that. And it’s human nature for the unlevered party to sit there and say, you know, even if they’re not asking me to, I’m going to do all of these things. And it’s why you get into over service. It’s why anytime I go into an agency and I see that they’ve got these great clients, I almost always sit there and say, you know what? I bet these aren’t very profitable. And we dig into them and guess what? They’re not very profitable. And having that logo on your website isn’t generating all the business that you think it’s going to. Gini Dietrich: But also, many of them won’t let you have their logo on the website. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s the other thing. Gini Dietrich: You go through all of this and then they say, No, you absolutely cannot put us on your website. You cannot talk about us in marketing. You cannot speak of our relationship at all. And many of them do that. We have a client who works with very large brands. And not a single one of them. Not one. Will let them use their logo. No case studies, nothing. They can’t, they can mention it in a conversation like this where, where it’s one on one and you know, on the phone or on zoom or in person, they can say we work with so and so, but they cannot put it in writing anywhere and it’s in the contract. So now. You’re being leveraged because you’re a business that wants to work with this big brand. You’ve had to go through the RFP process, through the procurement process, your ridiculous, terms, payment terms, and now you can’t even use their logo to say, we work with this company to help you build your business. Chip Griffin: I’ve even seen crazy cases where the large brand works with the agency on a project, they then submit for some industry award, and we’ve talked about how I think awards are stupid anyway, but they apply for some industry award, they get the industry award, but then the brand won’t let them talk about the fact that they were part of the win. Absolutely. Yes. So then the agency is left with either saying, We won this award, but we can’t tell you why, even though they submitted it to the other organization and it was part of that organization, but they can’t even talk about it, right? It’s bonkers. There’s no reason to do that. And so. You know, I, I don’t think that, that if you are a small agency, if you’re listening to us, that you ought to be going out there and actively seek these large brands, well, period, I just put a period at the end of that sentence, but it’s because it’s just, they’re not good arrangements in almost every single case that I’ve seen. It just, it doesn’t make any, you’re much better off going for the middle tier players in whatever industry that you’re targeting. Because those are folks who are, they’re not having everybody beat down their door. You know, when they, when they put out an RFP, they don’t have 150 submissions. Right from people who are like, of course I can get in. Why not? And, and so if you’re, if you’re fighting in those places and you’re doing it where you have a much higher probability of winning, you have a much better chance of having a successful, profitable relationship that will help you more than anything you will ever get from being able to say that you did work for Coca Cola. Gini Dietrich: The other thing I would say is if you have relationships, so and this is very, this is not going to happen very often and not to very many of you, but there will be cases where you have relationships inside big brands, but certain divisions. So not the overall arching, but we’ve, we work with two of the Fortune 10, but we don’t work with corporate. We work with like a division of that’s in the Midwest, for instance, of one company. And we do great work with them and they pay their bills on time. And like, we didn’t have to go through that whole process. So that’s how we’ve kind of wiggled in. And with one of them, because we’ve been a client for years, we’ve gotten another division and another division and another division because they talk to one another. But still, we’re still not working with the chief marketing officer or the chief of corporate communications at the big corporate level. We’re doing it in, in divisions. And that has worked really well for us, but it’s been really specific. We’ve started with one relationship and built relationships, you know, as we’ve gone along and it’s taken 12 years, 13 years for most of them to continue to grow. But that is the only way I’ve ever seen it work. I have one client who’s done the same with another big brand. She started with one division and has just slowly chunked off more and more and more and more. Chip Griffin: Well, and you’ve just highlighted something really important there, and that’s relationships. Yep. So, so the advice that, that I’m giving here is really focused on going in blind to these brands, right? You know, responding to an RFP or targeting someone just because of the logo. If you have a pre existing relationship with someone who runs a division, or even frankly the global CMO, right? If you’re good friends with the Absolutely, yes. Then, then this advice would not apply. Right. You still need to be careful. Because even though you have the relationship, they may, you know, you can still end up in a bad place over time if you have to agree to standard contract terms and things like that. But at least it’s, I would say that it’s in the realm of consideration because of the relationship. Right. It has nothing to do with the logo. Yes. So, you know, if you have the, and I have had relationships with individuals at big brands that have been very profitable and have been very successful. But it’s because I had the relationship beforehand. Right. In almost every case where I’ve been part of an agency team where we went in and we worked for a big brand and it was, there was no pre existing relationship, those are the ones we really get taken advantage of. And, and sometimes even when you do have the relationship, just because of their standard policies and practices. Because a lot of these companies, it’s not just the payment terms that are problematic, they often have other requirements in there that make it, unpalatable to do work for them or unprofitable to do work for them. And so you need to be aware of all of those things because I see too many agencies spending way too much time and effort putting together proposals and pitches and just, you know, even just the basic blocking and tackling of trying to build the relationships in some of these big brands that could have been much better spent winning two or three mid sized clients. Yep. As opposed to just going for those marquee brands because they think that, and I think to me the biggest problem is, is the thought that there’s some aura around these big logos that will cause people to say, Oh, well, if you work for them, I definitely want to work for them. Now, is there some of that? Of course, right? There are some people who will be swayed by that. But frankly, if that’s why someone decides to work with you, it’s probably not boding well for the long term nature of that relationship anyway, right? If I work for you, or if I choose you as an agency, just because I know you’ve done work for Coca Cola, and I’m not meaning to pick on Coca Cola here. They’re a fine company. They’re a big brand. Everybody recognizes it. So if, if you think that that’s why they are working with you. How shallow are they? Right? They’re not really judging you based on the work that you’re doing because you can demonstrate your expertise your talent in many ways far beyond just that you have some logo on your slide. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. And the other thing I would say is that Some of the big brands to your point make things not palatable and will steal ideas Take them as their own. And this usually happens in the pitch process where you’ve like pulled out everything that you have. You go and you do your dog and pony show. It’s creative. It’s smart. You’ve given away all sorts of ideas to try to win the business and you don’t win the business, but six months later, or a year later, suddenly you see a campaign or something in the news that was your idea. And they have no qualms. About taking those because you pitched it to them. They didn’t pay for it, but they weren’t, you, they, they got the idea from you and they have no qualms doing that. And guess what happens when you try to sue them? Chip Griffin: Good luck. Good luck Well, in fairness to the big brands, you know, in most cases where I’ve seen this happen, it, it wasn’t a malicious, it wasn’t intentional. It was simply once you hear an idea, you can’t unhear it. And so. You know, if I hear a good idea somewhere along the way, and I’m in the process of doing it, and I choose not to work with one agency over another, I mean, it’s just natural. I mean, I know that I have plenty of ideas, and I can’t remember where I first heard it. Sure. So, are there ones who are doing it maliciously? Yeah, probably. But I, but I think, I think more often than not. It’s more out of, of ignorance or carelessness as opposed to an intentional harming of that individual agency. And the difference with the big brands is they have the bandwidth to execute these things on their own. So in general, my advice is don’t hold back ideas during the, no, don’t hold back when you’re in a pitch process because most, most clients aren’t really able to execute on them. And so. You know, it doesn’t really matter in my mind that much. And so, you know, if you start being a little bit too, too coy and too, well, you know, I can’t really share that until we’re actually working with you. I think that just looks a little off. Big brands are different though, because big brands can and will, to your point, take advantage of those ideas, whether it’s malicious or not. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve had that happen with an entire campaign. They, this one was malicious. They did it on purpose. They had agencies come in to only to get their ideas. They didn’t hire an agency. And use their ideas. And it was 100 percent malicious. They’re out of business now. So that makes me feel better. But I mean, they’re a big brand. They were big, big brand. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, that’s unfortunately that kind of behavior does exist. but you know, it’s, it’s one of the many, many reasons why you just need to stay away from these big logos and at least as a default position, as you know, we always say it depends. So there’s always, there’s always the exception to the rule, but I, I… my biggest concern is just agencies that are so fixated on whatever logo it is that they are willing to compromise all of their standards, right? And, and so we see it in a lot of different ways. It can be agreeing to awful payment terms. It can be underpricing. Because, I mean, I’ve seen this one a lot. You, you know, you go into the big brand and you’re like, Well, we want to make sure we win this. And so you, and so you’re like, We need to sharpen our pencils and come up with the best pricing we can. And the best pricing you can usually means that you’re taking a loss on it. Yeah. Because most small agencies aren’t good at pricing to begin with. So even in your best relationships, you’re generally not, you don’t have huge profit margins. So if you’re starting to shave stuff off, you’re already starting at a deficit in working in that relationship. And it’s only going to get worse from there. And so, you know, we need to stop this mindset that the big logos are how we will measure our success. Because as we’ve talked about many, many times, you only need about 10 good clients to run your agency well. And those ought to be 10 good clients. They don’t need to be the marquee clients. They need to be ones that you produce great results for that you do with a solid profit margin and that treat you with respect and you can treat them with respect. And if you find those kinds of clients, you’ll be fine. And again, you only need about 10 of them. There’s a lot of companies and organizations out there that you can work with without having to compromise at all, just to get that, that logo that someone’s going to love when you share it at a cocktail party. Gini Dietrich: That’s why, and this is a completely different subject that we can talk about later, but that’s why I really love these emails that are coming out now of, Hey, I understand you run a PR firm. Let us help you get 10 to 12 new clients a month. I’m like, I don’t want 10 to 12, I would die with 10 to 12 new clients a month. No! Chip Griffin: Almost no agency can actually on board. I mean, even large agencies typically are not, I mean, unless you are an Edelman, you are not bringing on 10 new clients. Gini Dietrich: Not even then. I don’t think. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on how you, cause I Edelman does take on some, to my knowledge, at least in the past took on smaller clients. Periodically. And so those could add up globally, you know, anyway, it doesn’t matter that. But if you were listening to this podcast, you cannot support taking on 10 to 12 new clients per month. I mean, even most of the high volume SEO or PPC agencies out there would have a very difficult time taking on that many new clients and servicing them well. Yes. So you, you really need to be intelligent and deliberate and intentional about what kind of business that you’re seeking and make sure you’re doing it for the right reasons. And that is because you can produce great results and because you can turn a profit. If you cannot say yes to both of those things, then you shouldn’t be pursuing it. And most times when it’s that big, impressive logo, those things will not be true. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Totally agree. It’s all headache, headache, headache, headache, headache. Headache. Chip Griffin: And you know, it’s the holidays. We don’t need more headaches. The eggnog will do enough of that for us. So on that note, we’ll let you get back to your eggnog or whatever it is that you’re doing. So this is, well, I mean, I think it’s probably the best way for people to get through the Agency Leadership Podcast. Gini Dietrich: Maybe that’s what we’re doing. I mean, we should start drinking eggnog. Chip Griffin: I mean, that would be fun, you know, ALP cocktail hour or something like that, you know, we’ll just, we’ll sit here. And actually, I remember, years ago, I was listening to a talk radio program out of Boston and the host was, trying to, to demonstrate what it was like at different breathalyzer levels. And so he just started drinking at the start of the show and kept doing a breathalyzer throughout as he became more and more incoherent because he was just pounding alcohol in order to just sort of like an experiment, you know. Gini Dietrich: I like it. I like it. That’s amazing. Chip Griffin: On that note, we will not be doing that on this podcast, at least not this episode. Keep listening and you never know. Never know. It’s a reason to subscribe. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini take a question from the SAGA Community on Slack about ways to motivate freelancers just as you do with employees. The reality is that freelancers and employees aren’t the same and contractors should treat your agency as a client and produce excellent results — just the same way you do for your own clients. The real question ought to be how to engage freelancers more effectively, and that comes down to clear communication. As long as both parties understand the relationship and expectations are well-established, both agency and freelancer should be able to prosper from the relationship. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Agency owners always say, my freelancers are not motivated. What do I do? Act like the client and make them do their job or find somebody else.” Chip Griffin: “The vast majority of freelancers think of themselves more as an employee that’s just being paid differently.” Gini Dietrich: “Freelancers are not employees. Not only should you not think of them as employees, but they should not think of themselves as employees.” Chip Griffin: “Like everything else, it comes back to communication, transparency, and honesty.” Related Improving agency employee retention View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, I’m, I’m feeling really unmotivated today, so I think we need to fix that. Gini Dietrich: All right, let’s do that. Chip Griffin: Right after this. Gini Dietrich: Feeling unmotivated, huh? Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, it’s dark, it’s dreary, it’s snowy, you know, typical winter in New Hampshire. What can I say? You know, cold, mixed in with the snow too, because why not? So, you get it, so unmotivated, very unmotivated, but actually that’s not what we’re going to talk about today because… Gini Dietrich: Well, kind of. Not your motivation. Chip Griffin: Not my motivation. Gini Dietrich: Lack of motivation in general. Chip Griffin: Lack of motivation in general. And how do you keep in particular, how do you keep freelancers motivated on your team? And this is a question that came to us from the SAGA community. So for a change, we, we went outside of Spin Sucks and realized that there are people talking about things. You know, actually we’ll need to go back to the Reddit, Agency Subreddit pretty soon. Gini Dietrich: Oh, we haven’t done that in a while. Chip Griffin: We haven’t pulled from there in a while. And that has been very, very active of late. So. Oh, I mean, multiple posts, new posts every day. So lots of, of things there. Lots of things that will get our blood boiling if we ever, you know, feel the need to do that. But, today we’re going to, one of the questions that we got was how do you motivate, freelance workers? Within the limits of the law in particular. And so, you know, we all think about as we’re in this, this hybrid world, or remote world where we’ve got employees who are working remotely, but we also need to think about freelancers and how do we make them feel a part of the team? Well, maybe not going so far that the IRS or state agencies say to us, No, no, I don’t think so. Now those folks look like employees. And it is a real challenge because so many small agencies are taking advantage of freelancers for either all of their, outputs beyond their own or as a significant portion of their workforce. And so we need to be thinking about that and making sure that we’re getting the most out of them and getting the best results that we can. Gini Dietrich: So this drives me crazy. I’m going to start with that because if you’re a freelancer and you’re working with an agency, the agency is your client. It is not up to the client to make sure that you’re happy and motivated. It is up to the freelancer to make sure that they are servicing their clients appropriately. And for some reason, and this is across the board, agency owners always say, my freelancers are not motivated. What do I do? Act like the client and make them do their job or find somebody else. Chip Griffin: But we both know that not only do the owners not see it that way, but most of the freelancers don’t see it that way either. There’s a certain class of what I would call the professional freelancer who does, right? The professional freelancer has been doing this a long time. They get the joke. They know that they are the client, you know, that they are servicing you as a client. But the vast majority of freelancers, and I think it’s getting worse these days, the vast majority of freelancers think of themselves more as an employee that’s just being paid differently. And the owners are thinking of them in a very similar way, which is obviously problematic from a legal and regulatory standpoint. But, but it is the reality of how the relationship is working. Gini Dietrich: So switch your mindset because really and truly and I have this conversation a lot with my clients, which is You are the client. And you have to not only change your mindset, but you have to set things up differently. So you set up the relationship as a client-agency relationship. You are the client. They are servicing you as the client, and if they’re not doing their job, that’s the nice thing about having freelancers is you can say, you’re not, I’m not getting out of you what I want, so we’re going to go on to somebody else, because that’s how this works. They’re not employees. Not only should you not think of them as employees, but they should not think of themselves as employees. And I understand there are things like, well, sometimes we want to have one to ones with them, or we want to include them in team meetings, and that’s fine. Like they’re, I have one to ones with my clients. And my team and I are included in their team meetings a lot, especially when it’s, it has to do with the work that we’re doing. But as the freelancer, it’s up to them to manage their time and their retainer, whatever you’re paying them to include that kind of stuff. That’s their job. It’s not your job. It’s their job. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think part of this comes down to how you structure the relationship from the get go. That’s right. And I think that it’s really important, and this helps you from a legal regulatory standpoint as well, that you structure it such that you’re paying per project that they are working on. It’s a fixed fee for that project. Just as you are getting paid typically by your client a fixed fee for a project, in most cases, most agencies, and you should be doing the same with your freelancers for a couple of reasons. First of all, it makes it crystal clear that if that project goes away, so does the revenue that you’re paying. Gini Dietrich: So does the revenue, right. Chip Griffin: Right, the problem that a lot of agencies have is they go to a freelancer and they say, you know, I’ll pay you 5,000 a month and it’ll be to work on this, this, this, this, and this. No, break it out by project. And so the more work that they’re doing, the more that they get paid. And, and that’s actually a good thing for you because it means, I mean, it’s, it’s like, I always said about taxes, I was always happy to pay a large tax bill because it means I made a lot of money. If you’re paying your freelancers a lot more money, it should be because you are getting a lot more revenue and a lot more work that has to be done. Right. And so if you marry those two together, that helps to frame it as much more of a client. It doesn’t solve the problem by any means, but it helps a lot versus just paying them a lump sum for whatever you throw their way. And it really helps you if you’re ever audited and they’re taking a look at it because that looks much more like a client relationship than an employee relationship. Gini Dietrich: Yes. And as you’re doing that, you’re thinking about, okay, I’m paying them, let’s say it’s 3,000 a month to write 12 blog posts every month. If they can’t write 12 blog posts every month in the 3,000 that you both have agreed on, not your problem. They can’t bill you 4,200 or 5,000 because that’s not how you bill your clients. That’s not how it works. So when you’re working with a freelancer and you’ve agreed, we’re going to write 12 blog posts every month and I’m going to pay you 3,000 a month for it. It’s their job to manage their time effectively and to get it done within that amount. If they go over, that’s not your problem. Now they can come back to you and say, You know, we’ve been doing this for six months and it’s more complex than I expected. I expected or it’s taking me longer. Whatever happens to be, can we talk about increasing the rate or the fee? That’s a different story. But for them to send you a 4200 invoice when it should be 3,000 because it took them more time. N-O no, not your problem. Chip Griffin: Right. Well, and this is where it’s important that you have a documented relationship with your freelancer. And so, so you need to have a contract with them again, this protects you from you know, legal regulatory audits, that kind of thing, all sorts of other legal issues as well. But by doing that, you’re also being crystal clear about what your expectations are. Because freelancers are so wildly different from employees that you need to make sure that you are being very direct about what you’re expecting to receive from them in return for that compensation, what those terms are. I mean, you would never think about going to your client and just sending them a larger invoice because you did more work than you anticipated. You need to have a conversation in advance. Now, in fairness, most freelancers do not just send you an inflated invoice without a conversation first. I haven’t seen a lot of that. It has happened. I’ve seen it. I haven’t seen a lot of it. If you’re seeing a lot of it, then you probably not getting the right freelancers. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: And that’s just bad business. I mean, that’s just bad behavior. No matter what. Right. I mean, you can’t do that as an employee and just, you know, say, Oh, well, you have to pay me overtime, even though we didn’t talk about it. And actually, I guess, technically, legally, you can, but that’s a whole another. Let’s leave overtime for another conversation. We’re staying complicated enough. You know, and I think a lot of times when agency owners are asking us about how do you make, keep freelancers, you know, motivated and interested they’re losing track of the fact that they are not the same as employees, and even employees yes, you can motivate employees but usually when I’m asked how do I keep an employee motivated, it’s because the owner thinks that they’re going to turn the employee into thinking like them as an owner. And I think we’ve, I’m pretty sure we’ve done an episode. If not, we’ve ranted a lot about how employees will never think like you do. They will never be nearly as motivated as you are because they don’t own the business. Gini Dietrich: And so one of the things, right. One of the things my cycling coach says all the time, all of the time is discipline out trumps motivation every time. And what he’s saying by that is there are going to be days where you’re not motivated. There are gonna be days where you look at your, what you have to do from a cycling perspective, strength training, whatever happens to be, and you’re just not feeling it. But because you’re disciplined, you’re disciplined in getting the results that you’re setting, that you’ve set out to achieve with your goals, you’re going to get on the bike anyway. And you’re going to feel better and all these things that come with it. But the same thing in business, like you can’t motivate somebody. There are going to be days they’re not motivated. There are going to be days that you’re not motivated and not want to go to work. Like we were talking before about how gloomy and gray and dark everything is right now. It’s gross. And that affects me. Do I, would I rather be in bed reading a book right now? Absolutely. But discipline is trumping motivation. And that’s where you have to get people is, it’s about the discipline of coming to work and doing the job in the best way that they can. And it’s not about you having to motivate them because that’s not what – you can’t do that. But you can help them become disciplined. Chip Griffin: Well, yes, I agree. And I think part of it here is, is trying to understand what is motivation in your eyes, you know? So when someone is asking you, right. I mean, what, what, what is it that, that they are not presently doing that you would like them to be doing? And so then you can evaluate, is that even something that’s within the scope of what you’re paying them to do or not? Is it something that is realistic to expect or not? And so once you figure that out, then you can start addressing those particular things, and sometimes it may be that you’re simply not communicating with them effectively. It might be that they’re not understanding what you’re really trying to accomplish with the work that you’re passing on to them. It might be that, you know, you haven’t been providing feedback on past work, right? So making sure that you’re providing accurate direction at the beginning. Consistent and effective feedback over the course of the engagement. Those are things that will help Improve what you’re receiving typically from freelancers as well as others. And so that may be depending on what you what the specific questioner is asking about when they’re thinking about motivation That could be a piece of it. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Absolutely. And the other thing I would say is have consistent communication Because there, there may be times where they’re completely motivated and they want to do more good work and all of the, all of the things that you have done are in the right place and the structure’s in the right place, but there might be something else going on. And I, I’ll use this as an example, about a year and a half ago, I have a writer that is top notch. She’s probably the very best writer I’ve ever worked with. She’s so good. She delivers on time. She delivers great content. We never have to, like, change much. You know, we might just edit for, like, typos and small grammatical errors. But that’s it. She’s so good. And all of a sudden, her, everything went off the cliff. She started missing deadlines. She stopped showing up for meetings. She stopped responding to emails and phone calls and texts. And finally I scheduled a meeting with her after about 10 days of this. And I was like, what is going on? And I discovered that one of our clients was abusing her, like verbally abusing her. And she sent me some examples and I was, I had no idea this was happening. I was horrified. So of course she wasn’t motivated to do any work for them because they were treating her badly. So I immediately removed her from that account and, you know, put her somewhere else, but the, I, if I hadn’t continued to follow up with her to figure out what was going on, I would have never discovered that. And I would have just assumed she was unmotivated and things just went to pot and we had to move on. So consistent communication as well, especially within a situation like that, where things go off the cliff without any real explanation, you have to figure out why. Because there could be other reasons. There might be personal reasons, there could be other reasons that it’s happening. So Don’t avoid conflict. Have conversations. Do it on video chat or the phone if you can, because email and Slack, things get lost. And make sure that that’s part of your process. And just like we have one to ones with our employees, you want to have one to ones with your freelancers, too. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. I mean, a lot of the same things that work for employees will work with freelancers. The other thing I would say is, you know, going back to what you were saying earlier, you need to be thinking about this from the standpoint of you are the client. And so ask yourself, what are the things that demotivate you when working with your own clients? Gini Dietrich: Fair. Totally fair. Chip Griffin: And make sure that you’re not doing those same things to your freelancers. Yep. Yep. So, you know, if we think about it as an agency, what demotivates us with clients? Well, I mean, it demotivates us when they don’t listen to the advice that we’re giving them. It demotivates us when they keep us in the dark and surprise us with things. There’s a lot of things like that that are demotivating as an agency with our clients. So look at yourself as the client and say, okay. If I were, if I controlled the behavior of my own clients, how would I want them to behave? And then behave that way towards your freelancers. Make yourself the ideal client for them. And that will help improve the relationship and the results that you’re getting in all likelihood. Gini Dietrich: Love that advice. Yeah. I think it’s really like setting up the expectations at the front so that they understand this is a client relationship. You’re the client. demonstrate what that looks like, what a good client relationship looks like, what a good client looks like. And then always find ways to help them become disciplined in the process. And some, some cases, you’re, you know, you may be working with a, a solopreneur or freelancer who’s just a couple of years into their gig or brand new at their gig and you have to teach them. You have to coach them just like you would coach an employee and that’s okay, but they have to understand what those expectations are to be able to do that. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and so, you know, like everything else, it comes back to communication. It comes back to, to transparency and honesty. It comes, it comes back to treating each other as you’d like to be treated yourself. If you do those things, you will, you will get as much as you can. But you also need to, to check yourself and make sure that what your expectations are, are actually reasonable because often that’s where they’ve gone off the rails, right? You cannot expect employees or freelancers to care as much as you do to contribute voluntarily outside and above and beyond what you’ve actually agreed with them to do. And to the extent that you want them to contribute, I mean, if you want your freelancers to contribute to your annual planning process. Great. By all means, invite them in. I’ve been, as a consultant, I’ve worked with plenty of clients on annual planning processes. If, if it’s within the scope of work that you’ve agreed, great. If it’s not, pay them some extra to be part of it. Pay them to come meet in person. If you’re, if you’ve got an off site, you know, that you’re doing with team members and you’ve got some freelancers, pay to bring the freelancers in. Again, I’ve been brought into plenty of clients over the years, including larger agencies that I’ve worked with. And they’ve brought me into these kinds of strategic planning meetings. But they’ve paid me to do it. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. That’s exactly right. So if you’re not willing to pay for it, then the problem is not them. Chip Griffin: So hopefully that gives folks some ideas of how they can, you know, work with freelancers more effectively, get better results. And if it’s a question of motivation, figuring out what the root cause of that concern is and go from there. So with that, I’m, I’m motivated to bring this episode to a conclusion so that we don’t go on for too long. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Most small agencies at some point experience the sinking feeling of losing a whale client or seeing a sudden sharp reduction in revenue. When you get that kind of news, what do you do? That’s what Chip and Gini discuss on this week’s episode — especially for agencies that may not have an active pipeline of prospects in place. Ramping up revenue quickly means focusing on the right things and not wasting time on tactics that will only pay off in the long-term (if ever). Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Business development should be your number one priority, and client service should be delegated to your team so that you can focus on the right things to continue to build your business, even in times that are good.” Chip Griffin: “When you are the busiest is when you need to focus the most on business development.” Gini Dietrich: “Help your network understand what you’re trying to achieve, why you’re different, and how they can refer business to you.” Chip Griffin: “Networking is the only thing I can think of that allows you to immediately get out there and start filling the pipeline.” Related Block time on your calendar for business development — and stick to it Business development for agency owners who hate sales (Webinar) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin Gini Dietrich: and I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, all your clients are gone. You need to go get new ones right now. Gini Dietrich: Oh boy. Okay. Chip Griffin: Right after this. So… Gini Dietrich: All my clients are gone. Chip Griffin: All your clients are gone. Well, maybe not all your clients. Maybe your biggest clients. Gini Dietrich: I’ve lost some clients. Chip Griffin: Yes, this is a challenge a lot of agencies go through at one point or another, particularly when they’re small, because most small agencies have a handful of really large clients, or maybe one really large client that makes up a disproportionate share of the revenue. And when that client cuts back or leaves, many of these agency owners who have been sitting pretty before now panic because they didn’t have a pipeline in place because business was good. And so. They come to you, they come to me, and they say, what do we do now? And so that’s what we’ll talk about today. What do you do if you suddenly find yourself in desperate need of revenue and you don’t have an existing pipeline that you’re already working? Gini Dietrich: I think you should work on your website and your capabilities deck because those two things will bring in clients. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Immediately fire up that editor. Start, start messing around in WordPress and, Gini Dietrich: please don’t do that. Chip Griffin: The clients will show up the next day. Unfortunately – Gini Dietrich: The other, the other one that I think we should, should discuss, are you getting all these emails from people saying that they can give you like 10 clients in 30 days and quadruple your revenue? Like I get 10 of those emails every day. It’s insane. Chip Griffin: Yes. Gini Dietrich: Please don’t do that either. Chip Griffin: There must be so many rich people out there because these folks just have the sure thing. And, and I’m sure if you’re an agency owner, you are seeing these, they’re coming to you on LinkedIn. They’re coming to you by email and people are saying, you know, we can get you as an agency, 10 leads guaranteed in the next seven days or your money back or whatever. I mean, fantastic. It doesn’t work. There are, there are no shortcuts. There are certainly things that you can do to accelerate your development of revenue when you are in this position, but there’s no sure thing. There’s no guarantees. There’s no magic wand that you can simply tap into. And all of a sudden the revenue shows up. It is going to take work. It is going to take some effort. It is going to do require things that you probably aren’t entirely comfortable with in order to shake the money tree and get revenue in sooner rather than later. Which is why you should always be building a pipeline. But we know that realistically doesn’t always happen. So that’s what we’re focusing on today. Gini Dietrich: Human nature is, right, that we are like, oh, okay, well, we’re busy. We’re doing client work. All of this is going well. And our human nature just is not, is to deprioritize or not focus on biz dev. And then when something happens, we lose a client or whatever or two clients or the economy bottoms out or whatever it happens to be, we have to put the priority back on business development. When in fact, business development should be your number one priority and client service should be delegated to your team so that you can focus on the right kinds of things to continue to build your business, even in times that are good. Chip Griffin: Right. And that’s, I mean, it’s the top piece of advice that I’ve given to owners of all businesses really for the past 20 plus years. And it was a lesson I learned the hard way early on in my own agency business was when you are the busiest is when you need to focus the most on business development. And it seems counterintuitive that that’s the case, right? You know, things are going well. That’s the time when you need to focus because otherwise you will have your pipeline dry up. You will have your relationships atrophy and you will not be in a position to be generating business on an ongoing basis so that you smooth over those bumps in the road because we all lose clients at one point or other. There’s no agency that I’ve ever heard of that, that has kept every client permanently. It just doesn’t happen. I mean, for all sorts of reasons, they have a staffing change. They have a change in their business. They don’t, they don’t fit with you anymore. I mean, there’s so many reasons why clients go away. So you have to anticipate that it’s going to happen no matter how well you’re doing for them, no matter how happy they seem. And so you need to be focused on business development on an ongoing basis. But let’s assume you did not do that. Let’s assume you didn’t listen to all the advice that we give all the time and that most professional advisors will give you. And you are in that position. And so, Gini, you get that call that says your whale client is going away and They’re probably not even going to try to, to, to fulfill the 90 day notice period or whatever that you have in your contract. And so they’re, they’re going to say, well, we’re done at the end of this month. So basically you feel like you’ve got three weeks to solve this money problem. Now, the reality is you probably can’t solve it that quickly. So hopefully you do have some kind of cushion there, but what, what would, I mean, after you sort of, you know, hang up the phone and you start pounding the table and yelling and screaming and all that kind of stuff, and you kind of get past that and you acknowledge this is happening. I need to do something about it. What do you do to try to fill up your revenue or fix your revenue situation? Gini Dietrich: I mean, there are, there are lots of things that you can do for sure to, to build your pipeline. And it ranges from, you know, going onto LinkedIn and figuring out who your contacts are and who your network is and reaching out. You know, there’s, I’ve had a couple of situations in the past, probably the past several months – six or seven months. Where people have lost their jobs and it’s not exactly the same because it’s a job versus a client. But they’ve reached out and said, Hey, recently have lost my job. This is what I’m looking for. Would you mind keeping your eyes and ears open? And yeah, I’m super happy to do that. The same kind of thing can happen with you where you can network, use your network and say, we just lost this client. We’re looking for this. There’s a freelancer that I follow on LinkedIn and she’s, she’s creating really great content. And at the end, she says in every call to action, if you’re looking for help with, for, to do something like this, give me a call. So there are lots of things you can do from using your network to creating content, that some of those things take longer than three weeks or 90 days, you know, these are the kinds of things that you should be doing consistently, but you can, especially from a networking perspective, start to get on the horse pretty quickly. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think it really does start with networking and, and, you know, when you’re out of work, that’s, I think, a little bit easier because almost everybody wants to help someone who has lost their job, right? That’s the natural instinct. And so you can very easily go out there and say, Hey. Lost my job, got laid off, whatever, and you will immediately be able to find people who are willing to help. When it comes to losing clients and your agency’s in that position, you’re in a little bit more of a challenging situation. I don’t think that’s something that I would recommend that you post publicly. Like you might with being out of work, right? Yes, because there is a certain stigma from a business perspective that can attach, you know, to being in desperate need. And so I would typically, but I think it is something that you can use with your close contacts, with people that you know and have a good relationship with and preferably people who can refer business to you, but are not necessarily target clients, right? I think the challenge with making a target client aware that you’re desperate is first of all, it can be kind of a turn off because they want people want to work with someone who’s in demand. But more importantly, they then know that they have all the leverage in the negotiation for the terms of the deal. And so it is you do have to be a little bit more cautious about how much of the truth you tell to whom when you’re in that process. But it does. I think networking is the… it is the only thing I can think of that allows you to immediately get out there and start filling the pipeline. And most of us have a lot of people that we know or are connected with that we haven’t talked to in a while or that we’ve never really talked to. If we just sit there and we focus on doing outreach on LinkedIn, by email, setting up conversations. It’s not fun. It’s not what we want to do, but it’s not, it’s not true cold calling. Right. So I’m not advocating that you just go buy some list from one of these and you just start, you know, dialing for dollars. I don’t think that is going to, to win you business in the near term, but your network that you’ve probably neglected, and that’s why you don’t have a pipeline. That’s where I would start. Talk to as many people as you can. Gini Dietrich: And I think. In this case, it can be former clients, you know, depending on the relationship and you know, when, how they left, but there, we have several former clients who I could call and say, Hey, listen, we’re looking to beef up this part of our business, or we’re looking for this particular client, or I see you’re connected to so and so would you mind making an introduction? And I think that works as well without me saying we just lost a whale client or something like that. So I think that I agree with you. I think networking is and totally agree. Don’t post it on LinkedIn, like do one off emails and phone calls. But I think that’s probably the fastest way to start to generate and build your pipeline immediately. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I, and I think with most people, you don’t necessarily have to, or you don’t necessarily, you don’t say that you’ve lost business and you’re trying to recover it. You would just say, we’re looking to grow, which is true. You’re just looking to grow from a lower point than you were at 30 days ago, but you are still looking to grow. And so I think if you talk in those terms, you’re, you’re effectively telling the truth. But you are you’re omitting the reason why you need to grow and I think that’s perfectly fine because you know People are still understanding what your objective is and why you’re reaching out. Because if you just reach out and talk to someone and it’s not clear that you’re looking for new clients or something like that And I think you’re just calling to kibitz That’s a problem, right? That’s a problem, yes. They need to understand. But I think the other thing that this calls out is the importance of being able to tell your agency’s story really succinctly. Because if you’re doing this outreach and you’re just kind of just randomly ambling through the conversation, that’s not helpful. You need to be really clear about the identity and positioning that you have as an agency. So while I do not generally encourage you, if you are in this revenue loss situation, to spend a lot of time focusing on creating collateral and that kind of stuff. If you are not clear about your identity and positioning, and you cannot in no more than two to three sentences, absolute tops, really clearly identify what you do and who you do it for. Do that first. That is a worthwhile exercise before you start talking to a lot of people. Because if you’re on the phone with them and they don’t, they just know you’re a PR agency or a marketing agency and, but they don’t really understand who you serve and what you do, well, then you’re wasting your time in those conversations. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I used to have a business coach who, in the beginning of our relationship, would say, who can you refer to me? And I’d be like Uh, I don’t know. Let me think about it because when, when put on the spotlight, like your mind goes blank. So he started showing up for our one to ones with a list because he’d gone through LinkedIn to see who I’m connected to and who he thought might be a good prospect for him. And he’d say, can you introduce me to any of these 10 people? And I would go through the list and say, yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes. And yes. And then I would make those introductions, you know, to those three or four people. That makes it significantly easier on the person you’re asking for help. Because you’re not putting the onus on them. You’re not requiring them to do all of the work. You’re saying, Hey, I noticed that you’re connected to so and so at this company. They’d be a great client for us. Would you mind making an introduction? Sure. Most people will do that. Absolutely. And it’s, that again, is another easy way to start to build your pipeline through the people that you know very quickly Chip Griffin: Right. And so the having a specific list is one good way. The other is to have a very clear criteria. You know It’s so instead of saying who can you refer me to you could say hey, you know, I’m looking for automotive Supply companies that are between five and $50 million. Very specific, you know, in the Midwest or what I mean, something, something that, that allows me to, instead of sitting there saying, I don’t know, like you did when you were asked for just who can you refer to me. Now my mental Rolodex is, is much easier to navigate and I can go through who do I, who do I know who’s in the automotive supply sector? In my case, I don’t think anybody but right . Oh, I do know an agency that works with some automotive manufacturers like tire manufacturers, so I could refer you to them, right? I mean, it’s, it’s one hop away, but I, I, I would not have thought of that. Had we not had that kind of criteria. And so you need to have that kind of criteria so that you can tell people, what is your ideal client look like? Because then they can find somebody and you can even, you can even ask them for advice. You can say this, these are the kinds of companies I’m looking for. Who, who do you know? Who might, you might not know those people. But who do you know who you might be able to refer me to who could make those introductions? Or, I mean, anytime you ask for advice, people feel good. Yeah, they do. And so, you know, I love if you’re in this position where you need to accelerate your networking, whether it’s because you have this urgent need or just because you’re looking to grow over time and build a reasonable pipeline, because you are listening to us, you know, ask them for advice. And this is true, even if they are, you think they might be a prospect themselves. Ask for advice. You know, say, okay, you know that, you know, we’re looking at, at rolling out this service offering or tweaking this thing, you know, what, what do you think? Is that the kind of thing that businesses are looking for? You know, how would you describe it to people? What are those pain points if you frame it more that way? You can often get people talking more and have a more receptive conversation than you going to them and either saying, Hey, Yeah. Are you interested in hiring us? Right? Just kind of punch him right in the face and say, money, I want it now. Or even, you know, hey, who can you refer me to? Right? Because, because now if you’re asking for that advice, you’re putting them up on a pedestal and positioning them as an expert that you want to learn from. And I think that can be particularly powerful in moving the conversation forward. Gini Dietrich: I love that advice. Please everybody listen to that advice. That’s really good advice. The second thing I would say is that. There is that short term piece. But longer term, there are things you should be doing very consistently to keep your pipeline full so that you’re not in this crisis moment all the time. One of the, we lost a client in August. I actually said to them, I think the time has come for you to sail on your own. And they said, no, and I was like, I, I really think you can do this by yourself. And they said, are you firing me? And I was like, we’re not firing you. We just like the project’s over. It was crisis work. We’re done. Like you’re not in crisis. Chip Griffin: But the fact that you handed them that man overboard kit and a life preserver was kind of a giveaway. Gini Dietrich: So, so it took them a couple of months to realize that we were correct and they really didn’t need us anymore. And then. They can always call if something happens, right? But I had stuff backfilled with that. And then I could go to our, you know, three prospects who were kind of waiting in the wings and say, okay, we’re ready for you to do this, this, and this. And that’s all through content. It’s all every, every bit of that is through content. It’s there, you know, we’ve tweaked it over the years. It used to be that the blog was our number one driver of revenue, then became the podcast. Now it’s LinkedIn. So you tweak it where you’re distributing. Every year, probably. But the content is the content and it’s the way that you do it for your clients. You should be doing that for yourself. And I understand it’s not billable work and it always gets deprioritized and we always put our client work first. But I am telling you it is the very best way to drive revenue. Consistently. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, and I think for most agency owners, content may not be easy, but it is one of the easier things that they can do from a business development. Yes. Perspective. Yes. Because I don’t, I don’t, I know. Well, actually I do know. I know a very, very small percentage of agency owners who actually enjoy the cold calling process, right? Very, very small. There are a few. You know, they, they just, they really enjoy it. They’re just, they’re extroverts who like to just sit there and have new conversations with new people and they don’t mind getting yelled at, hung up on, ignored, all that kind of stuff. If you are one of those few people, great. Then, then obviously you already know what to do if you are in a revenue ditch because you’ll just sit there and start doing it because it’s your nature to do it. But for the rest of you. It can be a really good way to supplement some of the outreach that you’re doing. It can be a good tool to help that outreach along because if you’re posting on LinkedIn or your blog or you have a podcast, those are things you can share with people. And it becomes much easier to have that as part of your conversation. If you’re talking to somebody and, and, you know, they express, oh, we have this particular challenge. You can always say, Oh, you know, I just, I wrote an article about that not long ago. Let me forward that to you. Right. And so it helps to advance the conversation without you having to move into a sales pitch because you’re just sharing your expertise and you’re sharing something for free. And so it, it really facilitates that outreach that you don’t feel that, that icky feeling, you know, that, that many agency owners get when they’re, they’re out there and they really feel like they’re just selling in that conversation. You know, you’re just trying to be helpful and that does come back to benefit you, but you can also use the content itself for those connections. You can interview people for your article or your podcast. Again, you’re positioning them as an expert. Most people will say yes to an interview either, you know, whether it’s something that you’re going to put into an article or in a podcast episode. And that can be a good way to accelerate your conversations because it doesn’t all have to be just, Hey, can we schedule a 30 minute call to catch up, right? Right. So some of, some of this outreach may be that, but more often than not, you want to have a better excuse than that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think. To that point, I think a lot of people are worn out by do you have 15 minutes to chat? Like nobody has 15 minutes to chat, but they do have time to answer an email or respond to something that you’ve sent to them or, you know, read an article or listen to a podcast episode that you’ve, you’ve thoughtfully sent to them. Almost everyone will do that, but trying to carve out 15 or 30 minutes during the day when we’re all hectic and we’re all busy is almost impossible. So make it as easy for them as possible. And also there are people despise the “can we chat.” Somebody on my team. Just make it easy. Chip Griffin: I mean, I, I don’t love a just generic, can we chat, but I think that you can get people on the phone if you give them a reason why that’s not that you’re selling them. Right. Can we chat about how I can help you? No, no, because you haven’t given me, you haven’t, you haven’t laid the groundwork for that yet. Right. If I say, you know, can I have 15 minutes because I’m researching for an article or an ebook that I’m writing or something like that? Yes. Yes. You’ve got a better shot. Yes, you still have the scheduling challenges that exist, but people are more likely to be receptive to that. And they might say, you know, I just, I can’t fit into my schedule. Then you can always fall back to, well, what if I just sent you a couple of questions by email that we might be able to do, right? So I would still encourage you if you can have a, a voice conversation versus doing it by email, you’re better off. Right? That’s, it’s a more powerful way to connect with somebody, preferably by video, right? Because it’s still even more powerful. Yep. I would stay away from in person to the extent that you can, simply because if you are in that desperate need for revenue now, that really slows you down, right? Yes. So Unless there’s someone who, you know, they always come through for you over the years, they’ve referred a ton of business to you and you know that all they really need to know is that you’re, you, you shouldn’t need to meet them in person. But maybe there are some people in your network that are just that way that might be worthwhile. But I, one of the mistakes I see is that people try to set up lots, lots of lunches and coffees or travel or those kinds of things. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And if you need money, fast. You want to do things that you can, that you can scale much more easily and quickly than that. And so that tends to be phone, email, zoom, that kind of thing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. So make it as easy for people as possible. Help them understand what you’re trying to achieve. Help them understand why you’re different and how they can refer business to you. And create content that demonstrates that thought leadership in your expertise. And your pipeline will always be full. But you can’t, you have to do the work. You can’t just… Expect it to come or that referrals are just going to come out of nowhere. That’s not going to happen. And especially if you’re in a crisis. mode, right? Because you’ve just lost a client. You have to do the work and you have to be consistent about it, because if you’re not, you’re going to be stuck every time you lose a client. Chip Griffin: And I mean, and you’ve got to start with a list, right? Because I mean, one of the other problems I see is people say, well, I don’t even know who to talk to, right? You know, there’s one or two things. Take LinkedIn and just look at all your connections and just go from, from A to Z and, and go through there and just, you know, kind of start marking people off that, that are worth having conversation. There are going to be people on there. You don’t even recognize their names. I know that’s, that’s my, I mean, I’m like, I have no idea how I know that person. Sometimes I click on them and look at where they worked in the past. And I’m like, Yeah, no, still, still have no idea then I clicked the info to see what date we connected and I compared to where they were. Yep. Still don’t know. It happens, right? You know, but more often than not, you’re going to find plenty of names as you go through that. The other thing you can do is just take your inbox. If you’re someone who doesn’t delete all your mail, you have a record of it, go back two or three years and just, you know, start from that period in time three years ago and just start skimming through the, you know, the, all your deleted emails until you see some names. You’re like, Oh, I haven’t talked to so and so in two years. I should reach out right there because in particularly in that case, you know, it’s people that you interacted with and if you use the search function on your email, you can even see what your last conversation was and say, Hey, you know, I was just today. I was looking at this article reminded me what we talked about 18 months ago because you just saw it in your inbox. They don’t need to know that you were trying to find something. I mean, it might even be that you see their name. You see what you talked about last and you can’t think of anything that you’ve seen recently. So you go to Google. Yeah. And you type it in and you find an article that you just stumbled across and that you can use it as the hook for a conversation. This doesn’t need to be difficult. It doesn’t need to – I’m not suggesting being dishonest with people, but you can manufacture the reasons That’s perfectly acceptable, but you need to start, you know, just working through it methodically and making sure you’re doing this outreach every single day, particularly if you’re desperate. Don’t sit there, freeze up. Don’t do the behind the scenes work other than identity and positioning because that’s where too many of you are messing up. And when you have that revenue need, it’s all about talking to as many people as possible. Gini Dietrich: The last thing I will add is that both of our communities are pretty good about that kind of stuff. Like different from posting it publicly on LinkedIn or something like that. You can say in the Spin Sucks community, you can say, Hey, I’m looking for this, or we’re looking to grow and add this, or this is the type of client we’re looking for. Can you help? And almost always there’s somebody who can help. So don’t be afraid to use either one of our communities for that purpose as well. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Your peers are great resources on this because, you know, too often agencies view every other agency as a competitor. Not true. Most agencies don’t really compete directly with each other. And most agencies are happy to help when they can, because it makes them look good in their own network if they can make a referral that works out. Gini Dietrich: And good karma. It’s good karma. Chip Griffin: Good karma. Yeah. All right. Well, we’ll end this episode of Good Karma. No, I’m sorry, the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Many agencies overvalue their websites and spend too much time thinking about and working on them. In this episode, Chip and Gini talk about what matters — and what doesn’t — when it comes to your website design and content. They share some of their experience about the areas in which the most time (and money) get wasted and how to make sure that you get the best ROI possible on your agency’s website. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “When things are slowing down is not the time to be thinking about generating leads from your website.” Chip Griffin: “Just be honest. There’s no need to tell a story that is not an accurate story.” Gini Dietrich: “Think about who your best clients are and create your messaging around that.” Chip Griffin: “If you see the words “full service” on your website, delete them. Because if you are a small team, how are you doing full service? You’re not.” Resources Unlocking the Taylor Swift PR Playbook: Lessons for Brand Success Related Questions agencies should ask before redesigning their websites How to think about your agency's website (webinar) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, I think we need to talk about our website and what we should have on it. Gini Dietrich: Okay. I like that topic. Chip Griffin: Right after this. Actually, you know, instead of talking about our website, why don’t we talk about agency websites? Because I don’t really… Fair. Talk about it, because that just means more work for me. Gini Dietrich: It does mean more work for you. Chip Griffin: I’m not feeling like doing more work right now, so I think I’ve got enough on my plate. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, you have, you have quite a bit going on, so I agree with that. Chip Griffin: One day I’ll learn how to say no, which is probably something we’ve talked about before and probably should be another topic. Gini Dietrich: I think that that is a, an issue for many agency owners. Chip Griffin: It is absolutely an issue, but not the issue we’re going to talk about today. Well, it is a little bit because there are some things you should, you should say no to when it comes to your website. And, and I think that I have a lot, not I think, I know I have a lot of conversations with agency owners who are, you know, what should I do with my, I need to update my website. You know, I, you know, my, my business is slowing down. I need to, I need to do something with my website to fix it. I, it’s coming up on the end of the year. I want to think ahead and my planning. I, I’m going to redesign my website. And so a lot of agency owners spend a fair amount of time, at least thinking about, if not acting upon what their website has on it. Gini Dietrich: I also know that this is not the topic of this episode, but I just need to say when things are slowing down is not the time to be thinking about generating leads from your website. Chip Griffin: Yes. Gini Dietrich: You can generate leads from your website, absolutely. But now when things are slow is not the time to do it. That said, there are lots of things that you can do just like you would do for your clients to help to build your pipeline and make some rain using your website. And I think that’s what we are here to talk about today. Chip Griffin: I guess so. I mean, that makes about as much sense as anything else, but you know, it is, it is something that I think in general, agency owners spend way too much time thinking about their website and trying to figure out exactly how to make it just right. Make it look just right, make the language just right. And I’ll be honest with you, I think that your website can provide value, can be useful from a business development perspective. But I think most agencies overestimate the value that it has. And I think most prospects don’t spend a lot of time looking at your website. And they certainly don’t read it to the level that most agency owners think they do. Gini Dietrich: That’s correct. About two months ago, I had an experience with the company that I use to like mow our lawn and keep up our landscaping. And I, and he, the, our client service manager said something to me that triggered in my brain, wait a second, you do that. And I said, wait, you like, will take care of, you don’t just plant the landscaping, you’ll like take care of it every week? And he goes, yeah, of course. And I was like, I did not know that. And he goes, it’s on our website. And I was like, now I know what my clients feel like. When they say, I didn’t know you did that. And I think it’s on our website. They’re not reading your website! Chip Griffin: I mean, the other thing is a lot of agency websites are more like going to the supermarket. There’s everything on their website. Fair. And, and half of the stuff, once I get to know them and talk with them, I realize they’re just kind of listing services there. They don’t really do some of those or certainly don’t do them particularly well. Maybe they don’t do them profitably. So there is a tendency to list way too much stuff on your website, simply because small agencies kind of have a complex about being small. And I really think you need to get past that, because being small should be sold as an advantage. It’s not something you should try to cover up. So, let’s talk about the team page on your website. Please, dear God, list people who are actually on your team on the team page. Don’t put down people that you’ve had one conversation with and that conversation went hey, if I have a project that includes X, would you be interested in helping me? And they say, yes. At that point, you should not then follow up with can I add you to the team page of our website? And yet some people seem to think that the team page of their agency website is kind of like LinkedIn. And just because someone sends you a request doesn’t mean you have to accept it. So please, Please list people who are actually on your team. Yes. Oh, and by the way, have a team page, please. Because second only to my peeve about people who list team members who are not actually on the team are agencies that don’t show anybody working for the agency, including the owner. What do you have to hide? I mean, every, just about every agency website where I’ve ever looked at the analytics. The team page is the highest traffic unless they have a heavy content marketing presence, right? And they had something that got launched. But in general, the about us, the team page, those are the pages that get the most traffic. So please use them appropriately. Gini Dietrich: So would you include, so let’s say you’re a solopreneur and you use contractors and you use contractors consistently, would you include those contractors? Chip Griffin: So it, I mean, it’s a, it’s a difficult call because on the one hand, they are people who are regularly participating in things. And I do understand the desire to do it. And certainly in the past, when I have been in that role as a contractor for agencies, they have listed me. That said, you have to keep in mind that once you do that, you’re now making any audit that you may undergo more difficult because it is much more difficult to claim someone as a 1099 status here in the U. S. if they are on your team page because you are now acting as if they are an employee. So, you know, putting on my risk mitigation hat, I would advise against it. You know, from a just a pure business standpoint, look, if they are regularly working with you. I don’t have nearly the level of issue. My, my issue is when it’s someone who you may never have actually done a project with, but you said, Hey, if we ever have a need for social media or graphic design, can we list you? Or they maybe did one project with you and you say, if we ever have another one, would you do it right? Those are the ones where I think trying to do stuff to just embellish that team page is a mistake. Make sure that they’re actually people that you work with. on a regular basis because you have to keep in mind that sometimes you will have a prospect who says, Hey, I’d like to work with so and so that’s, that’s why I was interested. And if you find out that that person is no longer interested, no longer available, whatever, it then puts you in a difficult situation. It’s the same thing with offices. I’ve, I’ve seen a number of agencies and other businesses who like to embellish their office list. Because it sounds great to have a presence in different places. Right. You know, I have an office in Washington and New York. And so someone said, well, I’d love to, to meet with your team in Seattle. Right. Fantastic. I guess I get better go find somebody in Seattle other than my cousin, whose bedroom I stay in when I happen to visit there every other year. Like, I mean, you know, just be honest. Yes. There’s, there’s no need to tell a story that is not an accurate story. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think your point about, you know, some, sometimes as small agencies, we feel the need to look larger than we are, but it is an advantage for sure. It’s a big advantage and you know, lots of there, certainly there are lots of brands who will only work with the big agencies. Okay. But there are many, many, many, many, many small, medium, and even large, not super large, but large companies that are very happy to work with small agencies because of many reasons, including they have access to senior leaders, they have a smaller team to work with. They have a day to day contact that like there’s all of these reasons where in a big agency, if they, if they want access to the senior leadership, it costs them a crap ton of money and they probably will never, ever see a partner or an SVP ever. Chip Griffin: And at some point the prospect is going to find out that you’re not as big as you’ve made it out to be. May be before they sign the contract. It may be after they become a client. At some point, they are going to realize that you don’t have this giant team behind you, that you don’t have all of these offices, that you don’t perform all of these services that you claim to do, right? Or you don’t do them well. So. So just be honest, be direct, tell the story about who you actually are. Don’t tell the story about who you want to be, who you think your prospects want to hire. Be who you are. That’s how you will get the best clients. Gini Dietrich: And I would say to that end as well, really think about who your best clients are and create your messaging around that. So, you know, people have talked about, do we have a client checklist where we say, which we can talk about that in a second, but we say who our clients are, or do we have a page on our website that says our clients are this, this, and this, or like how you approach it is probably up to you. And there are certainly some best practices, but really think about who your clients are and what pain points you solve for them instead of trying to be all things to all people. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s a great point. I mean, the website is not your starting point that, you know, you don’t sit there and say, okay, well, I’m going to build a website. You start by saying, okay, you know, what is my identity and positioning? Who are my ideal clients? And you have to have all of the messaging that appeals to them done. First now you can use the website redesign as a process to drive that if that’s if that feels more comfortable But it’s not about creating a great website. It’s making sure that the website reflects overall growth strategy. And and it really does you if you do not know who your ideal client is. If you cannot answer that question, don’t think about your website. Go define your ideal client first. Understand everything you can about who they are, what you do, how big are they, what kind of staff do they have, what kind of teams are you working with, as much detail as you possibly can. Basically a DNA fingerprint of your ideal client. Then you will have something that will help you to figure out all of the language that you use, and the pages. And even the design, right? Because you want it to speak. Your website should speak to the people that you want to work with. They should look at it and say, I see myself in you. I see you as the solution. And similarly, people who are not good fit should look at it and say, Oh, this isn’t the right place. Yep. Right. If you work with landscaping companies, say you work with landscaping companies. So that if I’m a bank and I show up at your website, I don’t sit there and say, Oh, I should hire these guys because you work with landscape companies. Yes. Yes. There’s nothing wrong with saying who you are, who you want to work with. Gini Dietrich: No. You know, I think one of the biggest mistakes we all make, I certainly made this mistake, is we say, okay, well, and to your point earlier, we list all the services that we can provide, but maybe don’t. But one of the, I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is we say, okay, well we serve all. But small businesses are underserved. So we work with them all, or we work with all nonprofits or we only, like, I think agency owners in general are afraid to, to create a niche because it’s, it’s scary, right? Like what if somebody comes in who owns a restaurant and they need PR and we say, Oh, we don’t do that. So it takes, I think it takes as a managing director we used to have, used to say a few money. Yeah, but it also takes some confidence, right? It takes some confidence to be able to say, we actually don’t do restaurant PR because we do manufacturing B2B, but let me introduce you to some friends who do. And you know, I, I love to be able to do that because I, we, we turn business down all the time because we don’t do restaurant PR, we don’t do fashion, we don’t do lifestyle. It’s not what we do, and I appreciate that you want to work with us, but we’re not going to be good at it because it’s not what we do. So allow me to introduce you, and certainly I have the Spin Sucks community that I can mine, you know, for referrals. But let me introduce you to somebody who does do that, who is good at it, who knows the influencers and the journalists and the way that people buy in those industries. It’s not us because we do B2B. It’s not us. Chip Griffin: And, and, and, you know, I love that you mentioned small businesses and nonprofits because that’s one I hear a lot from folks. All the time. And we probably ought to do an episode about the, the problem of, of targeting easy to sell to, but hard to work with clients because that’s what most small businesses and nonprofits are. And so yes, there are a lot of them. Yes. You’re often dealing with the owner so they can be easy to sell to. But then they’re miserable to work with because they, you know, they, they penny pinch, they micromanage, all those kinds of things. And so, you know, it’s really finding the sweet spot for you. But, but from your website’s perspective, you should be, it should be clearly speaking to those right people. So that if you don’t do restaurant PR, people know you don’t do restaurant PR. And one of the, one of the ways that you can test this is by saying, okay, if I was take any random client from your list, if I came from that client and looked at my website, would it appeal to me? Would it speak to what I’m actually doing for them now? And if it doesn’t, then you have a problem. The second test is do a search on your website for the phrase full service. If you see the words full service on your website delete them. Now that may be a bit extreme, but I don’t think it is for most 99.9 percent of small agencies. Because if you are a small team, how are you doing full service? You’re not. Seriously, how can you do full service? It just, it doesn’t, no matter how many partners you have and 99, you’re just not really doing full service. You might be doing kind of sort of full service if you’re in a really narrow niche for, say, restaurants, right? You may be full service for their needs, but not truly full service. Usually when I see full service on a website, though, it doesn’t have any targeting associated with it. It’s just basically we’re a full service marketing agency. That is really cool. What the hell does that mean? Like, does it just mean I should turn over my entire marketing budget to you? Gini Dietrich: I think some agency owners would say yes. Chip Griffin: They yes, they would love that. Yes. Until they actually had to do it. Right. Just talk about what you actually do. Gini Dietrich: So to your first point… I love your point because if you’re looking at sometimes we’re too close to it. So I have a way for you to make this easy. It’s called chat GPT. Copy and paste your homepage copy into chat GPT and prompt it with my persona is this: a restaurant owner who has three restaurants, like figure out who your ideal brand persona is. Does it speak to that audience? And chat GPT is not, doesn’t care about your feelings. It’s going to tell you yes or no. And it’s going to say the, this addresses that this copy addresses these pain points and you completely missed these, these pain points. So, or no, it doesn’t speak to them at all. So it’s a really easy way for an outside expert to tell you whether or not your website copy is hitting your target audience. Chip Griffin: And here’s another way you probably could use chat GPT too just, just go to chat GPT and say, can you write the homepage copy for a PR agency or marketing agency, and then compare it to what you have. And if that’s your sole prompt, and you see a lot of similarities between what chat GPT came up with, with no information and what you have. And I bet you will. I haven’t tried this. I should probably try this just for fun to see if to see how close this actually comes to some real agency. Well, I would bet that it’s pretty darn close to what some of you have. Yes. And so if it matches based on that little information, then, you know, you haven’t thought it through well enough. Yes. So let’s, let’s talk about some of the other things on agency websites. I mean, how much detail on websites? So let’s take a few specific things. I get asked by a lot of agency owners about case studies and, and they love spending time on case studies and putting them on the website and all that. What are your thoughts on case studies on agency websites? Gini Dietrich: I think they are worthless and not useful at all. Chip Griffin: Do you think that generally about case studies or just on websites? Gini Dietrich: I think that there are, I, okay, let me caveat this. I think that showing showcasing your expertise is important, but doing it via a case study where most agency owners use the problem, solution, tactics, budget, and maybe results template. Maybe. Nobody cares. Nobody reads them. It’s too much. There are different ways to showcase your expertise. Blogging is a great way to do that. Podcasting is a great way to do that. Videos are a great way to do that. One of the things, and I think I’ve told this story before, but when I started speaking I had a, I have a really good friend who’s a nationally recognized, well known speaker. And he said to me, one of the things that you want to do when you’re speaking is talk about your expertise while you’re providing tips. So, you’ll say… You know, you should implement the PESO model and let me give you a really good example of how that works in real, real time. And you talk about it from that perspective. And when he told me that it sort of changed my, the way I was thinking about just my speaking platform. And I will tell you what happened when I started doing that is people in the audience would go, Oh, I have that same problem. She can help me fix it. And they start to see themselves in that same situation and you get referrals from that. So it’s, I think about case studies in the same way. If you’re blogging, for instance, and you can say like, I just did a whole piece on the Taylor Swift brand playbook, right? How you can follow what Taylor Swift has built for herself from a branding perspective. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Let me give you some examples. And then I, I tie in client examples and number one, I anonymize them. So it doesn’t like, we’re not saying the client name and you know, budget and all that, but we, I do speak to the experience and what it does is it says it, people go, Oh, I want to do that. And they can do it that she’s proven that she and her team can do that. So I’m going to call her, email her, direct message her, whatever happens to be. So I think case studies can be used in that way versus your PDF sitting on your website underneath a case study section on your website. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think case studies are a giant waste of time. There are bigger waste of time than credentials decks. Which I think most people know how yes little regard I have for creds decks and the amount of time spent creating them trying to present them all that kind of stuff. But I mean case studies are just they’re utterly worthless for all of the reasons that you’ve outlined in and exactly what you said. Share actual examples when you’re in conversation with prospects, because if they say, Oh, you know, I’ve been having trouble doing X and you can say, well, I was just working with a client on that last month or last week, right? That is much more powerful and also much more timely because most case studies are woefully out of date by the time they actually get written. Cause you don’t write them in the middle of a campaign. You write them after it’s done. That’s right. And then you have to usually get the client to approve the use of it. And so that means that the case studies you see on most agencies websites frankly, oftentimes they’re not even people who are still clients of theirs. Because the project is, you know, cause they wrote the case study three years ago. I mean, and you’re not going to spend all this time keeping them up to date. It is a waste of energy. So don’t do that. There’s no need for that because prospects aren’t going to your website to get that kind of information. And if they are, those aren’t the kind of clients you want anyway, right? You want clients who are actually having real meaningful conversations with you to learn about your expertise so that you can talk about their problem, diagnose it, offer a solution that’s customized to them. Your website’s doing none of those things. Your website needs to look professional, right? You don’t need to look large. You do need to look professional. It needs to, to be clear about who you are, and it needs to speak to the right clients and turn off those who are not good clients. It needs to have a good way to contact you. I, I am baffled at, at websites that do a poor job at that. Don’t make it difficult for someone to reach out to you. I don’t have a whole questionnaire they have to fill out. Are you going to have to deal with a little bit of spam? Yeah, probably. Is it really that painful to go hit delete a couple of times on, on spam so that you don’t have a 17 question? Cause I’ve seen some really detailed contact form. What are you looking for? What’s your timeframe? Why? Make it easy. Make it easy. Make sure you say who you are and who your team is. Don’t hide that. There’s no need to do that. Tell them where you are, please. That’s another pet peeve. I don’t understand the agency websites where you look at it and you have no idea where in the world they are. If you’re in Chicago, admit you’re in Chicago, it’s not a big deal. Yeah. Everything that, yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I just, I don’t, I don’t understand the, the people are focused on putting all sorts of useless information on the website, but when it comes to the basics that people are actually looking for – contact, team, location, who you work with. Yep. Those are the things that, that they make it difficult to find. Gini Dietrich: And I would say if you look at any across the board, any website research study that looks at what pages people look at the most, it’s always team, about us, leadership if you have it, and contact. Always. Those are always the top three pages. Always. Chip Griffin: And there’s a reason for that. It’s because it has what people want. Correct. They’re not going seven layers deep on your services, so you don’t need to build it out to that level. Gini Dietrich: They don’t care. Chip Griffin: There needs to be enough information so that they know who you are but not so much detail that you’re, I mean, As a general rule of thumb, if you’re spending a lot of time writing copy for your website, that’s probably not a good use of your time. No. And, and I think most agencies spend way too much time thinking about their websites, worrying that they need to redesign. Keep in mind, you’re the only person who’s looking at your website on a daily basis. And if you are looking at it on a daily basis, stop, unless you’re actually publishing content on a daily basis, stop looking at your web, don’t make it your homepage because you’ll just irritate yourself when it pops up in your browser and you’re like, Oh man, I’m bored with this website. Gini Dietrich: That’s because you’re looking at it every day. Chip Griffin: Right. Do you know how many times your prospects look at your website? Maybe once. Maybe once. Maybe once. Yeah. Maybe not at all. Gini Dietrich: And your clients never look at it, as I’ve learned. Chip Griffin: Correct. And why should they? Right. I mean, if, if I’m your client, why would I look at your website? Huh. Yes. Unless I, I’m traveling and I don’t have my phone with me and I need to look up your email address or phone number. Yep. That would be about the only time I would look for it as a client. I agree. I agree. Or I need to find your address so I can, you know, send you a cancellation notice. You know, I mean. Gini Dietrich: Please don’t do that. Chip Griffin: So anyway, hopefully we’ve given people a few tips of least what not to do with their website. And we will have more conversations about business development topics like knowing who your ideal clients are and not trying to sell to the people who are easy to sell to but horrible to service because we need to do more in these areas because it’s the website is just the jumping off point for those conversations. Gini Dietrich: It is. Yes, indeed. Chip Griffin: So with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Agency leaders need to stop casually discussing the chaotic environment common to so many agencies. Too often you will hear firm owners and others talk about agencies as hectic and fast-paced environments. Chip and Gini have had enough of this talk — and they both admit that they, too, used to embrace the idea that it was an unavoidable circumstance for agency life. Chaos is the sign of a problem that needs to be solved, not an acceptable condition that leaders and their teams should adapt to. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Chaos is not something we should be embracing. Chaos is something that we should be solving.” Gini Dietrich: “The younger generation is not going to put up with a situation that creates chaos and leads to burnout.” Chip Griffin: “Recognize that you have chaos and commit to ending it.” Gini Dietrich: “Focus on getting the work done and pricing correctly. And if you do those two things, you will not burn your team out.” Resources Chip’s LinkedIn post SAGA Agency Health Assessment Get Smart clip – KAOS Get Smart clip – shoe phone View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, we, we got to do this and so many things and the to do list is, oh! Gini Dietrich: Chaos, chaos, chaos. Chip Griffin: Right after this. I’m just, I’m, I’m all crazy. I don’t even know what to do today. I just. Too much going on. It’s, you know how it is. I mean, it’s, it’s the agency world where it’s got so many things to do busy. I mean, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. Gini Dietrich: Lots to do, lots of clients, lots of fires to put out. Chip Griffin: But it’s just, it’s just the way it is. I mean, you know, it’s just the way it is. That’s, that’s how agencies are and always have been and always will be. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Speaking of chaos, Chip Griffin: if you’re, if you’re watching on video, you will see a dog, if you’re listening, you have no idea. Gini Dietrich: Cute puppy. Say, cute puppy alert. Okay. Chip Griffin: Hi. Okay. Anywho, I think having a dog around my house would be chaos, but so here’s the problem. You know, agencies seem to wear chaos as a badge of honor. They, they just, they’re almost excited to tell you how chaotic things are and how busy they are. And, you know, and, and we just, we, we very casually in talking with other agency owners or with people outside the agency world, even we just talk about the chaos of agencies. And I got to tell you. That’s not a good thing. And I mean, I used to be one of those people. I used to think, Oh yeah, it’s just, you know, busy is good and chaos is great. And it’s, you know, it’s just part of the culture. The problem is that chaos is the sign of a problem. Chaos is not something we should be embracing. Chaos is something that we should be solving. Gini Dietrich: So I’m pulling up your LinkedIn post on this because I thought it was really good, which is, it’s not a rant. Chip Griffin: It’s a diplomatic rant. Gini Dietrich: Some agencies talk about chaos as a badge of honor, which I agree with. And I think our society is in general talks about busy ness as a badge of honor. So it leads into that as well. Chip Griffin: Well it’s the whole hustle culture thing. It is you watch YouTube video. You just need to hustle more. And look, I. I mean, I am, I am not a good example of work life balance and all that kind of stuff. I, I, I like to work, I make no bones about it. That doesn’t mean that you have to have everybody doing that same thing and just in having that, that sense of care, that that’s the only way to function. And unfortunately it’s become that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And so I think you say, you know, Often, this is, what I really appreciated about the post was this, “often when an agency leader describes the firm as a, quote, fast paced environment that relies on, quote, self starters, what it really means is that the team is overworked and stressed out without the right level of management and mentorship for individual employees.” So good. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and we see this we saw this recently in a Spin Sucks community post where a young former agency employee was on there looking for career advice and said, I don’t know what I want to do basically, but I know I don’t want to be in an agency again. Yeah. Cause it’s too much. And you know, and, and, and I hear owners who will talk about, yeah, well that’s, that was just someone who couldn’t cut it in, in the agency world. Nope. Gini Dietrich: Which I feel like I’ve said before. Chip Griffin: Me too, right? I mean, but at some point you need to realize that if you are in that kind of environment, you are not getting the most from your team. We talk about team as you know, the team’s our best asset. You know, the team’s our differentiator. Well, then, you know, why are you subjecting them to this kind of fast paced environment and, and talking about the chaos as if it’s a good thing. Instead, you should be sitting there and saying, Why is it so fast paced? Why does someone have to be a self starter? Why do we accept that you just have to work overtime all the time? These are not good things. These are fundamental problems in any business, whether it’s an agency or otherwise, and so you need to be sitting there and saying, rather than embracing the chaos, What’s causing the chaos? What is the root cause of it? And how can I solve it? Is it that I’m not pricing correctly? Is that I’m not staffed correctly? Is it just that I don’t have realistic expectations, right? And I’m, I’ve been guilty of that one a lot over the years that, because I mean, owners think everybody’s going to be just like them. And so, you know, if I can write an op ed in 20 minutes and I can, yeah, I used to want to hire people who could write an op ed in 20 minutes. Guess what? There aren’t a whole lot of people who can write op eds in 20 minutes, right? There aren’t a whole lot of people like me who would have a colleague and we’d have a race to see who could write an op ed faster. Because those are the crazy things that we would do. Not everybody is like that, nor should everybody be like that. And we shouldn’t be pressing for our team to, I mean, we don’t, we, we still want to press for excellence. We still want to get, you know, I’m not telling you to settle. I’m not telling you to get bad employees, but at the same time. Be realistic in all of your expectations. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think, you know, one of the things that especially the younger generation is really good about, and this leads into the conversation we had in the Spin Sucks Community, but I think, you know, our generation was just like grin and bear it and, and push through. And we don’t have mental health issues and we don’t have, we don’t need to take time off and we don’t have families totally separate, but this younger generation is like, no, like. There are things that I have to tend to as a human being and it’s not all work all the time. And so as owners we have to look at it and we have to say, okay, how are we providing the best environment for our team? And to your point, it’s not to overwork them and burn them out, it’s to and provide chaos. It’s to say, okay, if you are working, I actually just had this very conversation with an agency owner client of mine last week where she said somebody’s feeling burned out because she’s spending about three fourths of her time on one client. Okay. So if that’s the case, what do we need to do both with the client and with the colleague to ensure that you know, first of all, they’re not paying for three quarters of this person’s time. So how, what do we need to do? And we talked through the steps to, but that she needs to do with the client to set expectations, but also to work with the employee to ensure that she’s, she’s spending more like a quarter of her time with this client versus three quarters of her time. But those are the kinds of things that create the chaos and create the burnout and all these things. And the younger generation is not going to put up with it. They’re just going to be like, okay. Peace out. And just like the conversation in the Spin Sucks Community, I think she’d been in an agency for only 18 months and was like, this is not for me. And it was because it was chaotic and she burned out in 18 months. Chip Griffin: Well, and I mean, look, this is, I don’t necessarily think I wouldn’t attribute as much of it to the, you know, the younger or newer generations. I think this is, this has always been there. It’s just that most of us who are making this observation have shifted where we sit. You know, but, but if I think back to 20 or 30 years ago in the agencies that, that I was either working in or was very familiar with, you know, there were plenty of younger people who were like, this is crazy. You know, I, I don’t, I can’t have any kind of a social life because… you know, we, everybody sits there and basically it’s a contest to see who can sit at their desk the longest. That’s right. Right. And, and if you, if you left, you know, anytime during the five o’clock hour, you were like, Oh, you’re leaving early today, huh? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and the norm was six, seven, eight o’clock at night. And that was normal because chaos was embraced. Yes. And I, that just, it didn’t make sense then. It doesn’t make sense now. I think employees know that they have more leverage today. That’s right. Than they did in the past. Yes. Combination of reasons, you know, the labor market, the fact that with most businesses professional service type businesses being at least hybrid, if not remote, means that you have a lot more options. You know, you don’t have to be just looking for someone that’s an easy commute to you, which dramatically limits your potential places of employment. So, you know, it really has shifted the dynamic as far as being able to act on the concerns that have always been there. And so, I mean, I think agencies need to be paying attention to this. And one of the things that I did recently was I created something called the Agency Health Assessment, basically a 30 point, almost like a car tune up inspection checklist kind of thing. And one of the questions in there is effectively, do people in your agency regularly work overtime? Because they shouldn’t. It shouldn’t, it probably shouldn’t be never right. Cause you know, you want to have some urgent projects or something. I mean, that there is some level of, of value to having those in there. And it means that you are being relied upon oftentimes by a client, but if it’s yes, I mean, I have employees working overtime every week and by the way, not getting paid because, you know, at least here in the U S the laws are such that most agencies can get away without paying actual overtime pay. You know, that’s a problem. You shouldn’t be in that state. If you are in a state where the only way it functions is for employees to be working regularly more than 40 hours a week, it means that you are not pricing correctly or you’re not resourced correctly. And those things need to be solved sooner rather than later because it will come back to bite you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, and think about your own, like, from your own perspective. I mean, I certainly have run the gamut, right. To your point in my early, early career, I would, you know, if, if the partner of our profit center was still sitting in her office, even if we didn’t have work left to do, we sat at our desk and sometimes it was 9 or 10 o’clock at night because she didn’t have a social life. She had nothing else to do except work. And so we would sit at our desks and do clips or whatever it happened to be because she hadn’t left yet. I remember getting pulled over at 2 o’clock in the morning on my way home from work once because the, they thought I was drunk. And in fact, I was just so freaking tired because I was working all the time that he was like, the cop was like, I’m going to escort you home because you’re going to fall asleep at the wheel. So you start your career that way and you think that that’s the way it goes and then you build an agency that does the same thing because that’s the way you think things are done. But I don’t know about you, but I’m at a point in my career where I’m like, I don’t want to work like that anymore. I don’t even want to work 50 hours a week anymore. So if I don’t want to do that, how can I expect that my team is going to do that? And, and I’m not resourcing them correctly. So I always, I’m constantly, and we talk about this all the time you and I. It’s, it’s all about figuring out, are we priced correctly? Are we charging enough? Are we resourcing correctly? And you know, there’s, there’s this whole thing, I think in agency life where you say, well, my, my mid managers, my mid level people have to be 95 percent billable. Stop focusing on those kinds of things. Like let’s focus on getting the work done and ensuring that we’re pricing correctly. And if you do those two things, you will not burn your team out. It will not be chaotic and you will actually find yourself with time where you’re like, Oh my gosh, I’m not crazy busy. This is great. Chip Griffin: And look, the problem with chaos is that if you’re an agency owner, you either become part of the chaos, and it’s just as stressful for you, and that I think is the most common. Or, you find a way to normalize things for yourself, and the rest of your team is living in chaos. In which case, they not only are unhappy, but they are also resenting you, because they are seeing that you are not living that same life of chaos that they are. And so, you know, I think it really requires people to have that commitment to saying, Chaos is not good. Chaos is a problem, and then taking the time to figure out what it is that’s causing it for you so that you can start to address it. Because, you know, look, I mean, I have plenty of owners who come to me and say, yeah, it’s, you know, it is chaotic. You know, we, you know, people are, they’re stressed out, they’re burning out. What do I do about it? I, you know, clients won’t pay more, you know, and so I, I just don’t know what to do. Well, look, if, if clients won’t pay you what the work actually costs to execute, then you need to figure out what you can sell to them. Yep. If anything, yep. That will. And if not, the solution is not to continue to provide something at less than the cost that you need to charge in order to have a well seasoned team that is not overworked and also generates the profits that you need in order to have a successful business. Volunteering your services effectively to companies just doesn’t make any sense. Stop doing it. Gini Dietrich: Stop doing it is right. Chip Griffin: If they won’t pay it, you don’t give it. Come up with something else to sell. Come up, find a way to give them what they want, but have it take less work. I mean, there’s, you can, you can solve this problem in many different ways, and I’ve been doing a lot of webinars and trainings on annual planning recently. One of the things we talk about is how you can re scope work as part of that. I mean, you, and I always talk about the example with you where you not only do it on a, on an annual basis, but you do it on a quarterly basis with clients to re scope the work in order to make sure that it remains aligned. And so. You know, that’s one way to solve the problem. The other way is just say, yeah, it’s going to cost more to do this, right? But most agencies I know charge roughly the same amount today that they did 5 or 10 years ago. Because most agencies, particularly small agency pricing is based on whatever their last agency that they worked at, worked at charged for something. Well, you know, we used to charge 5,000 a month for PR. So we’ll charge 5,000 a month for PR. Well, cool. That was 2005. Gini Dietrich: Right. And as we learned, that’s, that was almost 20 years ago, which is shocking, but yes. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Thanks. I was talking with someone the other day and he was, there were three of us and one was my age and one was younger. And we’re talking about Survivor that came up somehow. And I said, oh yeah, I watched the first season, but I never saw it after that. And, and the younger guy said, oh yeah, you know, I started watching in Season 19 when I was in college. Oh, jeez! Great. And the guy who was the same age as me was just like, no, great, thanks. Yeah. I mean, look, time passes, but we need to remember that. Right? Because almost everybody that is listening to this is an owner. Almost all of you have 10, 15, 20 years or more of experience. What worked back then does not work now in terms of pricing, business models, anything. All of these things need to continue to evolve. And the reason why you have this chaos is because you are trapped in the past. In all likelihood, you’re, you’re running it like that old shop that you used to work at, which was chaotic because that is, I mean, I’m not going to, you know, sugarcoat it. That is the culture of the agency industry. And even now in 2023, it is embraced by people, even agencies that are doing well financially. They still will often embrace the chaos. Stop doing it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yep. One of the things that I’ve noticed of late is… and not, not necessarily clients of ours, but like industry wide, I’ll get emails from people, PR professionals in the industry who work at an agency on the weekends and it happens consistently. And it’s, you know, maybe they’re inviting me to a podcast or I’m writing an article for them, whatever happens to be, but they’re working on the weekends and it consistently happens where there I get emails from people in the industry on the weekends because it’s the only time they have to get the work done. And every time I do that, I see that I’m like, Oh my gosh. Like the, the job of the agency owner is to ensure, in my opinion, to ensure that the work can get done during the week. And if your team is working their weekends to even if it’s to do the marketing for the agency that means you’re not resourced correctly They should not have to work the weekends. Now there are exceptions -crisis events, trade shows, things like that, right? But if they are generally working to your point if they’re working over time if they’re generally working on their weekends to be able to catch up so that they can go into Monday with a clean slate – That’s a problem. That’s what’s creating chaos. Chip Griffin: And you’ve got to start with yourself on this right? You need to make sure that as the owner you are not living a life of chaos yourself. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can’t work weekends, right? But how do you, how do you think about doing it in such a way where you’re not signaling to your team that they ought to be doing that too? And part of that is making sure that you’re, you’re giving them workloads that they can manage within a normal work week at the office or remotely or however you’re operating. But part of it is looking at, at how you’re doing things. And so maybe you do work on the weekends as I do. But maybe you, you pick and choose the kinds of things that you do then so that maybe you’re not emailing your employees constantly on the weekend, right? So you work on things that, that don’t require that. One of the things that I, I started doing a number of years ago was I stopped doing most client work on weekends and used weekends instead for bigger picture, longer term, you know working on the business kind of things. And so that then also helped to set, you know, good boundaries with clients so that you’re not sending them emails over the weekend and then… Gini Dietrich: Or answering their emails on the weekend. Chip Griffin: Yep. Or, or answering their emails on the weekend, which then invites them to continue doing it. Correct. And so, yes, there are, there are a lot of little steps that you can take as an owner to begin to erode the chaos culture. Some of them are gonna take more time, right. I mean, not emailing on the weekend. That’s an easy one. That’s a quick fix and you probably could start doing it right now. Just as soon as you’re listening to this, you can commit. I’m not going to send my employees or clients emails on the weekends, except in emergencies. That’s it. Some of them will take longer. Repricing, rescoping work. Those are not overnight. You don’t just snap your fingers and say, aha, we’re done. You know, we’re going to charge you 50 percent more, or we’re going to do less work or whatever. But, but now is actually, as we’re recording this, you know, we are in Q4. It is a great time to be thinking about how you scope your work for clients in 2024 and how you price that so that it does get you to a place where you can take the chaos away from your team, you know, gradually over the next, you know, six to 12 months. And get to a rational operating level because that’s how you will be successful. It’s not by just, you know, recruiting people who are okay with the chaos. That is not the answer. And you need to just if the word chaos comes out of your mouth and there’s a smile on your face. It better be because you’re talking about the old TV show, Get Smart, and not because you’re talking about the work environment at your agency. And I’ve really dated myself here, so. So all of you listeners can go Google Get Smart. Get Smart. I’m sure you have never, ever heard of it. Gini Dietrich: I’ve never heard of it. Chip Griffin: But KAOS was essentially, it was a, it was a sitcom from the 60s. And it was basically, KAOS was essentially the, the KGB. So, but it was, this is the one where Maxwell Smart had a shoe phone. So if you’ve ever seen someone pretending to talk on a phone talk on a shoe, that’s where it comes from. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny, I didn’t realize that. So you end your, your LinkedIn post with this. “The trick is to get to the root of the chaos. It could be the result of any number of things, including poor expectation setting with clients, bad pricing, insufficient resources, often due to bad pricing, lack of focus, inefficient management structure, missing processes, or something else. The sooner you can diagnose the chaos, the quicker you can make the changes needed to put an end to it.” Chip Griffin: Yeah, but it really, and I appreciate you reading that, but I think the most important thing is to just recognize that you do have chaos and commit to ending it. Yep. Right. Because if you, if you don’t, then all of those other things are just, you know, they’re sort of, that’ll make me feel good for a few days, but you just have to commit to no longer accepting it. And when you see another agency owner talking about chaos, don’t say, Oh, you know, wow, that’s, I admire that. Right. Because they’re successful. You know, don’t, if you’re, if you’re out there listening to the various agency advisors on YouTube who talk about chaos as if it’s just, yeah. It’s chaos. And they don’t necessarily embrace it, but they, they accept it. Right. And, and, and accepting it is just as bad. You know, we know this in a lot of other aspects of our lives. When you, when you accept a bad thing, it is basically the same as endorsing it. If you accept the chaos, you are endorsing it. You are saying, not that it’s just a necessary evil, you are saying you’re okay with it. Don’t be okay with it. Gini Dietrich: Don’t be okay with it. Yes. Do not be okay with it. Chip Griffin: With that, we’ve taken a slightly chaotic path to get here, but not too bad. I think we kept some decent focus for us. We certainly wander in the wilderness quite a bit on this show before we get to our final points. But today I think we more or less paddled in the same direction towards a successful conclusion, but that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Beyond the Mask: The Lessons I've Learned on Empathy in the Workplace by Kat Kennan Radicalcustomerexperience.com https://amzn.to/3thGy9d Beyond the Mask: Everything I've Learned About Empathy at work by Kat Kennan is her chapter of the 2023 bestselling book, How to Break the Glass Ceiling and Still Keep It Nice. The e-book has a great meld of approachable personal stories, as well as research-based statistics that really hit home on the importance of psychological safety in the workplace. What People Are Saying: "As girls, we were taught that we could be anything we wanted to be. The women who came before us fought for our rights for, well, everything. The right to vote. Equal pay. The ability to work in any field we were passionate about. The list is endless. At the same time, we were told we could also be great mothers and partners and sisters and daughters and friends. We could have it all! "It turns out, that's a farce. Maybe you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time. "Beyond the Mask" is an eye-opening discussion about trauma, mental health, culture, society—and how to change the conversation so we don't burn out with chronic fatigue, PTSD, or worse. It will help you not only learn how to break your glass ceiling, but be OK with having it all during different stages of your life." — Gini Dietrich, founder and author, Spin Sucks

PR Series In this episode I interview Gini Dietrich, creator of the PESO Model and founder of Spin Sucks. We discuss the PESO Model approach to communications strategy. For those unfamiliar with it, this approach was launched in 2014 and is now taught to every PR, marketing, and communications student in the United States and talked about by marketing and PR firms nationwide. It's a pretty big deal when your approach becomes an industry standard in less than 10 years. We discuss how this happened, why it matters, what it is, how to implement it, measure it, and where the industry is headed next. Some top tips … The PESO Model was developed by Gini Dietrich to avoid the peaks and valleys that naturally come from solely focusing on media relations. By expanding to incorporate owned media, shared media, and paid media into your communications strategy, in addition to media relations, you can continue to build awareness, lead generation, and more when you don't have a great press piece coming out that month. The PESO Model is best implemented by starting with owned media (including blogs, podcasts, and videos), adding shared next (social media), and then moving to earned (media relations) and paid (social media ads, sponsored content, and email marketing). Everyone should at least measure direct traffic, organic traffic, and branded search with Google Analytics. When direct traffic increases month over month, it demonstrates that your communications program that builds awareness is working. Organic traffic shows that your content, social media, and media relations are working in driving people to your website. By going into Google Trends and typing in your company name, if you see an increase in searches for your brand, then your PESO components are doing their job as well. If you haven't yet experimented with Chat GPT, start by typing in a prompt for something you're working on, like an article, and ask it for 500 words on your topic or headline. It won't be the final draft but it will be a first draft and will help you save time. Gini uploaded a podcast script and asked it to optimize for search, write some headlines, write a meta description, and write me seven tweets. Again, it wasn't the final product but it was a timesaver for a first draft. This episode at glance … >> (5:00-6:30) What is the PESO Model and why was it created >> (6:30-10:30) The strategic order to approach implementing the PESO Model >> (10:30-13:00) Overlap and differences between marketing and PR >> (13:05-19:00) What to measure and how to maximize measurement insights to grow your business >> (21:00-25:00) What do PR and corporate communicators need to consider in light of Chat GPT moving away from search engine results pages >> (26:00-27:40) How to get your message in front of journalists when departments are shrinking and they are doing the work of 5-6 people Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts “I love Christie and The Business That Story Built podcast!” Does that sound like you? Please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more people like you who want to build a stronger business. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode! Also, if you haven't done so already, follow the podcast! Every week I release an episode that helps strengthen the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we tell others. Follow now! Ways to reach Gini Dietrich & Christie Bilbrey www.spinsucks.com www.christiebilbrey.com hello@christiebilbrey.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christiebilbrey/ Instagram: https://instagram.com/christiebilbrey Download my free guide: Create Your Buyer Persona Download my free guide: 10 Tips to Grow Your Business as a Podcast Guest

In this episode, Chip and Gini react to a blog post from their friend Christopher S. Penn who writes and speaks frequently and intelligently on new trends in communications and technology. In his piece, Chris argued that agencies should review their business model and pricing structure in response to AI developments in 2023. While the co-hosts see artificial intelligence as a force that will (and already is) impacting agencies, they’re not on board with a wholesale change to agency models as a result. They argue that the value pricing approach advocated by Chris is far more difficult to implement in practice and doesn’t necessarily address the fundamental changes that AI may cause. Instead, Chip and Gini argue that agencies should be looking to better integrate AI into their own processes and understanding how it is transforming how their clients approach the challenges that agencies address. The path they recommend results in agencies evolving their solutions and delivery mechanisms rather than abruptly shifting course dramatically. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “I think that it is certainly premature at best for an agency to say, I’m going to rethink my whole business model because of what AI is doing.” Gini Dietrich: “AI hasn’t created the death of the hourly business – the death of the hourly business has been here for a while.” Chip Griffin: “There are so many innovations that have made work more efficient and faster, and we’ve all figured out how to adapt to them, and it’s not simply by trying to figure out how do I protect my margins against a threat.” Gini Dietrich: “We have an expertise and we have experience. And those two things, along with the trust and the authority that we’ve built, are the reasons somebody is hiring us.” Resources Almost Timely News, September 17, 2023: AI And The Death of the Hourly Business Related Value pricing isn't the answer for every agency View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin Gini Dietrich: and I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and Gini I think with all this AI thing, we need to change how we’re doing this whole podcast. Just throw it out and start over. Gini Dietrich: Great. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: Right after this. Now that I think about it, maybe that’s a little bit of an overreaction to AI. Maybe. Maybe I should take it in and figure out how to, how to use AI as opposed to just discarding our entire podcast and starting over. Gini Dietrich: Or maybe we just let AI do it and we take the credit. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s a good idea. I would love to see how AI would like… Gini Dietrich: I actually, we actually should do an episode on that just to see. Put in props. Chip Griffin: See if we can get Chat GPT to mimic an episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. Gini Dietrich: I love it. I think that’s a funny idea. Chip Griffin: And then we’ll just, we’ll read our lines that it comes up with, that would be, I don’t know. Gini Dietrich: Something, that’d be something. Chip Griffin: That would be something. It would be something if it could even figure it out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s true. We should do a test like that at some point. Not for a whole episode. Chip Griffin: We have to be careful though, we don’t want this podcast to turn into actual work for us. Gini Dietrich: That’s, that’s a really good point. Chip Griffin: I mean, this is supposed to be, you know, we kibitz for a while, then we hit record and we just say whatever’s on our mind and we hit stop and then we turn it over to Jen. She does all the hard work while we just get to have a little bit of fun. Gini Dietrich: She does do all the hard work. And the best, the best is that she includes, I love that she does this. She includes like clips and stuff to other things that we’ve talked about, or she’ll include a meme or a couple of weeks ago, she included the, the link to the YouTube clip on or short on Tom using, yeah, using people as his footstool. I was like, this is great. She’s great at it. Chip Griffin: You know, she enjoys that part of it. I suspect there’s parts that she doesn’t enjoy, but I think she enjoys our references because it gives her an excuse to go and Google funny clips on the internet and call it work. Gini Dietrich: And then she emails me with funny, snarky remarks, which I also love. I’m a big Jen fan. Chip Griffin: So yes, I suspect at my expense. Not always. Anywho, so what we’re actually going to talk about today is AI and what it means for agencies and their business models, because this is something that came up recently in, of course, the Spin Sucks community. Gini Dietrich: Yep. So our friend Chris Penn recently wrote an article on value based pricing and artificial intelligence, and it was shared in the community, and there was a lively discussion about it, including, From our friend, Chip Griffin, who talked about, you know, whether or not this is applicable to agencies, whether or not we can use AI and how it works for value based pricing. And if AI is making us more efficient, should we be charging more because clients are getting the value of our expertise on top of the AI? Is that a nice way of putting it? Chip Griffin: Sure. Well, needless to say, I found this post to be rather triggering because it, it, it had two of my current triggers, AI and value based pricing just in the, right, just right there. And, and so red alerts, you know, so if Chris was trying to trigger me he couldn’t have found a better way to do it. And I know he wasn’t looking to do that because I, I’m fairly certain that I, you know, I’m not on Chris’s mind every day when he wakes up and says, how can I, how can I, well – Gini Dietrich: now he knows, now he knows, Chip Griffin: now, now he knows if you, if he would like to trigger me, just talk about value based pricing and or AI or put them both together and my head will explode. And look, I, I, You know, I will use the same disclaimer that I used in the community. Some version of, I think Chris is a smart guy. I love a lot of the stuff that he puts out. I follow, I used to sit there and watch him at his Saturday night data party on Facebook. You know, so, so clearly I am a Chris Penn fan. That said, I am not a fan of this post at all. I, I think that it is certainly premature at best for an agency to say, I’m going to rethink my whole business model because of what AI is doing. And to think that the solution is to try to find ways to charge more for the things that AI allows you to do easier, I just, I, I fail to understand that rationale that feels much more like the way old school people look at how do they protect themselves when technology comes along, right? And we have the, my point is that AI is just the latest in a series of technology. It’s cool. It’s great, but it’s, it’s not, it’s not something we haven’t seen before, right? There are so many innovations that have made work more efficient, things get done faster, and all that, and we’ve all figured out how to adapt to them, and it’s not simply by trying to figure out how do I protect my margins against a threat. Gini Dietrich: So I would say, yeah, I would say a couple of things. You know, one of the first things that he talks about in the article, and we’ll link to it in the show notes, is that AI has created the death of the hourly business, and I don’t think that that’s true, because the death of the hourly business has been here for a while. I can’t tell you, that’s actually not true. I was going to say, I can’t tell you the last time I, we, we, billed by the hour. We bill by the hour for crisis work. But nothing else. Everything else is project based or retainer based. And I think that you and I have been talking about this for how many episodes? 205 episodes now? There is, the death of the hourly business has been here and come and gone. And, and even when Phyllis shared the article in the Spin Sucks community, she said we price per project, per project, as I’m sure many of you do as well. So she preempted that by saying, like, we don’t bill by the hour. So what is it about the value based pricing in here that’s beyond the hour, hourly business? Because I think that piece of it is dead, has, is dead, has been dead. You know, nobody, I, I don’t even think attorneys are doing that – my attorney doesn’t bill by the hour anymore. It’s dead. Chip Griffin: I, I disagree with that. We’ve talked about that before. I, I think that there’s a time and place for hourly billing. Obviously, you, you still do it with crisis work, as you said. Yep. And so I think that you know, you should always look at your various options for pricing and figure out what works best for you as well as for your prospects and clients. And in some cases that may be hourly billing. So I, I don’t subscribe to, you know, you should default to no hourly billing, right? I, I think that in many cases it adds complexity and tension that’s unnecessary. And when you have a pretty good sense of how much time something is going to take, I would prefer a fixed fee approach. I mean, my attorney still does charge by the hour. Absolutely. You know, I, I’ve used plumbers recently for some of that they charge by the hour still, right? There are still time there’s when you don’t know how long something is going to take it is the, it is the most fair pricing solution for both parties to do hourly billing. Because if, if neither side really knows how long it’s going to take and you do fixed fee, then someone is, is likely going to get it stuck to them in the end, right? Because either you have to overcharge to protect yourself against the fact that it might take more time. And then if it takes less, now you’re overcharging the recipient, right? So, I, you know, but if you have a reasonable idea of how long it’s going to take within a reasonable margin of error, by all means, use fixed fee. But I, to me, it’s… The whole argument about hourly just doesn’t make sense. People always, you know, somehow lawyers always come into the hourly billing conversation. And so, you know, in the specific, one of the specific examples that Chris used in the post is how he had put together some legal agreement with ChatGPT for a friend and a lawyer reviewed it and said, yep, it’s good to go with no edits. And so, so this is how we must know that hourly billing is dead and it’s going to doom lawyers that ChatGPT exists. Except that, there have always been things that have made it faster and easier for lawyers to do things. My father was a lawyer. I remember going to his office in the late 70s, early 80s, and they sat there and he had a secretarial pool that would type things up that he would, he would record into a dictaphone. You probably need to look that up, but it used to be that you had a handheld telephone. That you would, that you, the attorneys would speak their letters and contracts into, and then someone else would listen to the tape back, and they would type it on a manual typewriter. That would then, you know, have to be edited on paper and then retyped all of this kind of right. So he had that. He had a huge library in the basement of his of his building with all of these case books and law books, and that’s where they went to get information. Now, attorneys type their own letters and contracts. They don’t have a secretary who does it for them. They type into their computer in LexisNexis and they get the citations that they need immediately, just like that. They don’t have to go hunting for it. So the level of efficiency is many orders of magnitude greater than it was in the 70s and 80s. And yet, the hourly billing model is still very much alive and well. And I don’t know about the attorneys you know in your life, but most of them do pretty well. And they’re billing by the hour in most cases still. Some, as you note, have, have stopped doing that. But, but I would say by and large, the attorneys that I come into contact with still use it. So, the hourly billing model is not dead. And AI is not going to destroy it. Because if ChatGPT is your, the only thing that you’re doing, you’re just generating contracts, well then, you didn’t need a lawyer in the first place. Go download a template from somewhere. You can do that already. Gini Dietrich: This contradicts what you said last week, which was never, never use something that hasn’t been reviewed by an attorney. So if you’re going to download the template… Chip Griffin: but if you’re just going to ask ChatGPT to do it, you might as well just download the template, right? I mean, at least the template probably was reviewed at some point in time by some lawyers somewhere. ChatGPT was never reviewed by a lawyer anywhere. Right? So you’ll give, if you give me a choice between the two, I’m probably going to pick the template that some lawyer likely reviewed, particularly with, you know, my knowledge of ChatGPT hallucinating things or that kind of stuff, or the fact that ChatGPT is out of date. And so if there are laws or regulations that will come along in the interim that cause, that mean your contractor agreement should be different, well, ChatGPT can’t by definition know about that. And good lawyers ask you a lot of questions to figure out what you really need and to help you understand what the risks are because there’s not a one size fits all contract or agreement for anyone. You can cover everything, but if you do that, you’ll probably never get the other party to sign. Right. So a good lawyer sits with you and says, okay, let’s talk about the work you’re doing. Let’s talk about what you’re worried about from a risk standpoint. How much exposure are you willing to accept? And that’s how you figure out what to include or exclude for your personal circumstances. ChatGPT cannot do that in 2023. Gini Dietrich: I think you bring up a really great point too, which is the same for for agency owners, which is we have an expertise and we have experience. And those two things, along with the trust that we’ve built and the authority that we’ve built, those, those things are what somebody is hiring us for, right? They’re hiring us because we have expertise and experience that they either don’t have internally, or that they need extra brains around because there’s something coming up. And that’s why they hire agencies. They don’t hire agencies because they have a team internally who can do it. And oh, they’re just going to use ChatGPT. And can we just review it? That’s not how it works. So yes, we can use ChatGPT to make us more efficient. And when we were talking before the show started, I relayed one of the things that we use it for pretty consistently, which is we have a client who does an hour long webinar every week. And before ChatGPT came into our lives, probably last November, we had, we, we would have it transcribed by Remy or Tev, and then we would. Or I just, just did that different, that Rev or Temi, my dyslexic brain. Chip Griffin: I was, I was trying to figure out where you were going. I’m like, I was trying to process that in my head and I thought it was actually someone’s name, like Remy somebody and… Gini Dietrich: Temi or Rev and, and then back before November, we would have to go through and clean it all up, and then we’d have to create content from it. Now what we do is we throw that transcript into ChatGPT, we have it cleaned up, and then we say, create three outlines for three blog posts on this, on this topic. So then it gives us a starting point and an outline for us to create the content, and it probably saves. 20 hours a week easily. Are we, we’re not charging more for that. We’re not charging less for that. What we’re doing is we’re saying, here’s all of this. And they’re, they’re ecstatic because they’re getting it so much faster. They’re getting it within a day instead of almost the following, almost the following week, they’re getting it really fast. So they’re ecstatic. And then we’re taking that time and we’re putting it into other things that we know need to be done for this client. So they’re like thinking they won the lottery because they’re paying the same exact amount, but they’re, they feel like they’re getting more. They’re getting something delivered a lot faster, several days faster than when we were doing it manually. And we’re doing other projects that have been on the back burner for several months because we, we’ve been spending all this time doing all this content that now ChatGPT helps us do. So my point is that It’s you’re not going to, you can use it to be efficient, but you don’t have to charge more or less because you’re using it and you don’t have to say, Oh, my gosh, it’s going to replace us because it’s making you more efficient. It’s giving you an opportunity to be able to do more for your clients. Chip Griffin: Right. And we’re constantly getting access to those kinds of things in the agency world. I mean, looking at, at all of the things that we do today as a PR or marketing agency in 2023, almost all of them are easier to do today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. I mean, your example of the secretary pool. Chip Griffin: I can’t remember the last time I stood at a copy machine. Correct. Or a fax machine. Correct. Gini Dietrich: Or send packages back and forth to clients to get approval. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, I load paper into my printer about once every six months now, right? You know, it’s, these are all things that took a lot of time before. Yes. And all of the technological advances have helped improve what we do, right? I mean, the, the mobile phones that we all carry with us have given us the ability to do things at times and places that we never could have before. Those are all good things if we figure out how to use them, right. AI is the same way. That’s right. AI is not a nuclear bomb. That’s going to come in and destroy everything. And, and so when I hear people talk about, you know, because of AI, we need to completely redo everything. No, we need to figure out how to integrate it in what we’re doing. And I love that you talked about how you can use it to make yourself more efficient and produce better, more timely results for clients. That is very different than the example of using AI to replace a lawyer or an agency or something like that. And if someone, if someone is going to use ChatGPT to replace the work that the agency is going to do… well, that’s not a, that’s not a playing field I want to be on anyway, right? I want them to understand why, why I can provide them something that is above and beyond what the AI can do. And to your point. We have as experts have knowledge. We have things that go beyond what the technology can presently do. And we can look out there and say, okay, here’s what’s going on in the world today. And so maybe you don’t want to say it this way. You want to say it that way. Or maybe you want to go with this particular approach because we’ve seen it working of late. If you’re relying on ChatGPT, it knows what worked a year and a half ago. Right. That’s not the same thing as an agency that’s staying on top of things. And it’s not, it’s also not human. So it can’t read people’s perceptions, at least again in 2023, in the same way that we as experts can. And so if someone wants to just use it and have it, you know, write press releases and put together target lists and have it do it all on its own. God bless ’em. Go do that. Those aren’t the clients that I’m trying to fight for. Gini Dietrich: No, and I think that the agencies wanting to do that as well are not the agencies that that should be hired because clients are hiring you for your experience and your expertise. And if you’re not going to add that on top of the artificial intelligence that you’re using to make yourself more efficient, then you’re not providing the best result that you can for your clients. So yes, absolutely use it. To make yourself more efficient. And yes, absolutely use it to, to create better, faster results. But you have to provide that expertise on top of it, or you’re not, there’s no reason for you to be in business at all. Chip Griffin: Right. And if you’re able to use it to make you more efficient, you know, some of that can go to your bottom line in the form of profits, some of that can go to increasing the bandwidth you have to do more for the client for the same fee. That’s right. I mean, you know, if you can, if you can shave off, you know, 10 hours a month because you’re using ChatGPT to do summaries and edits and that kind of stuff, I mean, certainly take some of that to your bottom line, but take some of those hours and do something more to produce some more results that are still within scope, I’m not encouraging scope creep here, but there’s a lot of things, even within scope. A lot of times we say, well, we just don’t have time to get to that this month. Have time to get to that. Deepen your relationship with that client. Make them stickier. Find a way to upsell them on something else. You’ll come out ahead in the end if you’re using it intelligently and not seeing it as a threat that causes you to have to redo and rethink everything. And if you’re going to redo and rethink everything, please, please don’t play with value pricing. It is, it is one of the most dangerous things for people to do who don’t even get basic pricing correct. And this is, I’ve talked about this before. And even if you listen to Blair Enns, who is probably the biggest proponent of value pricing, that is Win Without Pitching and, and the groups that he has and all that. He is a huge proponent, but he will tell you quite clearly that this is not pricing 101. You don’t start at value pricing. Value pricing is a graduate level activity. And so until you get to the point where you just can knock it out of the park with hourly or fixed rate billing. And you know you can do it consistently, reliably, profitably, in a way that your prospects are believing that they’re getting great results from you when they become clients. If you’re not able to do that, value pricing is not the answer. Because value pricing is very difficult. It’s very complicated. It requires you to have a real specialization in the work that you do, in the industries you serve, so that you understand what that true value is, and have the confidence that you truly can deliver that value in the same way that the client sees that value. Those are not easy things to do. It sounds great on paper, it feels good when you watch it in a 30 second YouTube short. That is not the same as actually implementing it in your agency in real life. Gini Dietrich: And I will tell you that there are situations that we do value pricing, but it’s things like speaking engagements. You know, where I, the, the client and there have been times where a prospect has said, I don’t understand why this costs so much money, you’re only going to be on stage for an hour. Yes. You’re right. I’m only going to be on stage for an hour, but I have 20 years behind me of experience that I’ve built to this level that allows me to be able to get on stage for an hour. And I’m going to be away from the business and, you know, like all of the other stuff that goes around it. So you have to be able to say, prove that the reason you’re asking for that price is because of all the stuff that you have around it. Not just because you’re spending only an hour on something, but because you actually have the expertise to be able to, to provide value based pricing. And it’s hard, like people will say, I just don’t understand why it costs so much money when you’re only going to be on stage for an hour. You’re like, okay, well then you’re not the right client for me. Chip Griffin: But see, even that I would argue is not truly value based pricing, right? That is premium pricing. And I think this is one of the areas where people get confused in the difference between premium pricing Right? I mean, a lawyer who charges you $1,000 an hour is engaging really in premium pricing. Value pricing, to use your speaking engagement example, would be you understanding what is the value to the event organizer for having you on the stage? What percentage of ticket sales can they attribute to the fact that you’re, you’re listed as a keynote? What percentage of the satisfaction of, of attendees derives from the fact that they loved the keynote that you gave? Right, that could, because that’s where you get to what the value is of your speech. The fact that you’ve got a lot of experience leading into it justifies the value, but it is not the true essence of value based pricing, which says, okay, I’m going to produce this press release for you. It’s going to generate, in my view, an additional 1,000,000 in sales, and I want a piece of that action. Maybe not explicitly, but because I know it’s going to generate a million in revenue. You know, it’s reasonable for me to ask for 100,000 for that one press release, right? Because it’s only 10%. So that’s not that bad. That’s value pricing. And the problem is that most people conflate premium pricing with value pricing. And, and for you to understand how much of, you know, what’s your true value as that event organizer, that would be incredibly difficult because you’d have to spend a lot of time understanding their business model. It would be incredibly difficult. Yep. Yep. And understanding, you know, what’s the difference if someone else is up there speaking instead? Gini Dietrich: And getting the data from them that they’re probably not going to give me. Chip Griffin: Correct. Correct. And so most of the examples, if you, if you read articles or you watch videos about this, most of the people who propose value pricing say you should say to them, okay Ms. Event Organizer how much, how much tickets are, or how many tickets are you going to sell at how much and, you know, how many keynote speakers do you have and how prominent am I going to be in that? And so, okay, so, you know, if I didn’t come, how do you think that would affect your revenue? First of all, most people aren’t going to answer any of those questions for you. That’s right. Even if they could, and a lot of them can’t answer those questions, even at your clients, even if it’s not an event, right? I mean, they just don’t have that access to information. And so if you’re truly going to go down this path, it’s a whole different world. And so I think we need to be really careful about that. We certainly need to make sure that we’re not undercutting ourselves. We don’t want to get into the business of trying to compete with AI. And so saying, well, ChatGPT can do it. So I’m only going to charge you 10 bucks for this press release because I know you could get it for free anyway. That’s not the way to do it. I’m not proposing that, but also, you know, don’t go out there and decide that, you know, you’re now going to charge 10 X for a press release because that’s, that’s how you’re going to protect your bottom line. That is not the way to go. So use it to your advantage. Don’t be afraid of it. And please be thoughtful about changes to your business model. Don’t just do it because, you know, you paid attention to some story about ChatGPT and decided it was the end of your world as you knew it. And so you need something entirely different. Gini Dietrich: No, it’s not. It’s not. You’re right. You’re right. Lots of changes have come that have made us more efficient and has not been the end of our world. Chip Griffin: Not at all. But if you want to trigger me, feel free to write about value pricing and AI, put it together. Gini Dietrich: I kind of feel like I should do something on SpinSucks, just to see. Chip Griffin: So thank you, Chris, for giving us a very passionate topic for us to talk about. And by all means go read his argument. He is a thoughtful guy and, and, you know, there are some points in there that I’m sure you can take away and make your own decision. But my, my view is just don’t do that. So with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Chip and Gini are tired of all of the bad pitches from agencies that they find in their inboxes. They simply can’t take any more. In this episode, they examine some of the really poor sales emails and pitches to have guests on their podcasts that they have seen lately. It’s time for agencies to knock it off and put more thought into how they pitch themselves and their clients. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “It’s not a numbers game, it’s a relationships game. And so you need to think about how you scale relationships, not how you scale outreach.” Gini Dietrich: “Know what your staff is doing from the perspective of creating content and using models and processes that they’ve scraped off the internet, and make sure they’re giving credit.” Chip Griffin: “Outreach shouldn’t be blasting out as much as you can to as many people as you can and just hoping that enough of that sticks to the wall that you actually are able to generate business over the long run. Because in the meantime, you’ve done tremendous damage to your reputation.” Gini Dietrich: “It’s about developing relationships and spending the time to build those relationships with your target audience, versus sending out as many pitches as you possibly can.” Related Common mistakes agencies make when pursuing new business Creating winning new business strategies for your agency (featuring Shannyn Lee) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think that you need to buy, buy, buy anything I’m going to sell right now, right? And just don’t even think about it. Just buy, right? Okay, no problem. Right after this. You know, I get really annoyed. I could probably just stop right there. Gini Dietrich: You could stop right there. Yes, you could. Chip Griffin: Regular listeners. Anyone who knows me will just probably be like, yeah, yes you do. Gini Dietrich: Yes you do. Chip Griffin: But I’ve been getting particularly annoyed lately because it seems like there are more and more of these just awful pitches that I get on email and LinkedIn from agencies trying to do business and it just boggles my mind that people are actually getting results because I presume if they’re sending this stuff out that they’re getting some level of result off of these just awful, awful sales pitches. Gini Dietrich: So, yes, I agree, and I have been receiving some as well, but I’d love an example of some of the awful sales pitches you’re getting. Chip Griffin: I, I mean, some of my favorites that, that are, that are ever present from web development firms, for example where they basically say your website sucks. Huh. We want to fix it. I don’t think that’s, I mean, that, that would be like, you know, a cosmetologist going out there and saying you’re ugly, but I can make that better. Do you think you’re going to buy from that person? I, I don’t know. I just, I don’t understand the mindset of, of coming in within with what is essentially an insult of the, for all, you know, the person that you’re contacting is the person who oversaw the building of the website. Gini Dietrich: That’s actually a great point. That’s a great point. That’s a great point. Yep. Chip Griffin: So, I don’t understand that kind of tactic. I don’t understand the tactic of the agencies. Again, we’re on the web dev side of things. It’s not limited to web dev, but there’s some of the examples that come to mind. Where they come in and they say, you know, I found some things on your site that are broken. If you schedule a call with me, I’ll tell you what they are, right? I mean, again, that’s like saying, you know, you, you’ve got something unzipped, but I’m not going to tell you what, unless you schedule a call with me, how about you just tell me, you know? Gini Dietrich: I had a really good one like that too, that they actually made a video, they made a video and they went to my website. And they said, we’ve noticed there’s some things that need to be fixed on your website. And they were going through each page. It was like a five minute video. And saying, there are three things on this page that need to be fixed and five things on this page. And I was like, okay, like give me a taste of something. I’m not just gonna randomly schedule a call with you. Right. And then like the follow up is obnoxious as well. The, I got, there is, the follow up to one of them I got last week that just made me roll my eyes was the typical, you know I’m, A, click one of these answers, A, I’m not interested, B, I’m too busy, C, a bookcase fell on me and I can’t get up. Like, dumb! Dumb, dumb. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. Those are dumb and they’re copied straight out of some, you know, someone’s sales manual. That’s exactly right. How to do these things. That’s right. I think some of the worst pitching and this is sales pitching and pitching otherwise is from podcast agencies and, and, you know, with all due respect to anyone out there who’s running a podcast agency, I’m sorry if you’re running one of the good ones, because most of them suck. Most of them suck. And, and the pitches are just awful. Terrible. They’re terrible for me on the receiving end as a host of multiple shows where, I mean, we’ve talked about this before. We get pitches to be on the Agency Leadership Podcast, you know, cause of all those guests that we’ve had over the five years we’ve been doing this show. All zero of them. All zero guests. But they’re regular listeners and they love what they hear. Right. Okay. Okay. We’re starting the relationship by me understanding that you are a liar. That’s right. A lying liar who lies. And, and then you get the ones who pitch, you know, someone who’s already been on one of my shows. Would you like to have so and so on Chats with Chip? Well, I already did, so… No, I don’t want to have that person on again. And now I’m going to blacklist them. I mean… Gini Dietrich: I get those for Spin Sucks too, where they’re like, I loved your episode with so and so! And they’ll actually say an episode that I have done recently, but then add a guest. I don’t do guests either. And I’m like, again, to your point, you were starting off this relationship by me understanding that you’re a liar. That’s really terrible. But my favorite Oh, go ahead. I was gonna say, my favorite is when clients forward me emails from agencies that are pitching them. And there are things like, we know you have an agency, but we can do better. And here’s what we can do. Not only can we get you in the New York Times and USA Today and the Wall Street Journal, but we can do it for free and we won’t charge until you are placed in one of those publications all the time. Yeah. All the time. Chip Griffin: Yeah. No, I’ve, I’ve seen. In fact, in fact, I think that may be where this, the, the idea for this show came from, because I think a week or two ago, I forwarded you one of those ones where I got a pitch from a pay for performance PR agency where they didn’t even use the agency name in the pitch. They wanted to set up a meeting, but I had to copy whoever was in the CC because clearly they’re using some kind of appointment setter. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. And when, when your appointment setter set up is just so bad that you have to tell someone that they have to reply all because otherwise, like you’re trying to sell me, don’t tell me what I need to do in order to have you sell to me. Yes. That just doesn’t make any sense to me. Yeah. I mean, I also love the podcast agencies who, you know, who’ll send the pitch to me, you know, have you ever thought about being on podcasts? You know, we can help, we can help get you on to podcasts. They were a great thing. You know, did they walk through how great podcasts are? I’m like, Oh, really? What are these podcast things? I’ve never heard of them. Two seconds of research. It’s not that hard. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Or the ones that are like, I can help you with your social media following. Did you look me up? Chip Griffin: Right. Gini Dietrich: I don’t need any help, but thank you. Chip Griffin: I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s, it is abominable. The way that, that so many agencies, not all, not all of our listeners, probably most of our listeners are not this way, but you’re competing out there against people who are doing this kind of thing. And part of it is because people read these articles and textbooks that say sales is a numbers game. And you’ve got to do so many contacts each day to generate so many meetings per week, which then leads to so many proposals, I mean, on one level, yes. Technically true, maybe kind of, but if you reduce it to a numbers game, you’re making a mistake because a good agency, we’ve talked about this, has 10, 15 clients, tops. Tops, right. That’s not a numbers game, that’s a relationships game. That’s right. And so you need to think about how you scale relationships. Not how you scale outreach. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think we’re also competing with the, I mean, I don’t know how many of these emails you get, but I probably get 20 or 30 of these emails a day of the, there’s a broken link on your website, we’d like to replace it, or we have this, this manual that could be great for this blog post, or it’s just like, oh my god, I can’t. Chip Griffin: We’d love to write an article for your website and we’ll give you a link back to it. And I’m like, but this article is on lawn mowing. Like, and I get all sorts of crazy stuff like that because in part, because like on this show, we go off on random tangents and so there’s all sorts of crud that’s in the transcript and they’ve used some automated email generator that says, if you mention a lawnmower, we’re going to send this to you so that we can have you link the words lawnmower to our lawnmower service. No, no, read it. Right. In fact, I’ve probably invited that now just by talking about lawnmower so many times on this lawnmower, lawnmower, lawnmower. Let’s wait and see what happens. Let’s see when the next one comes through. Let’s test this theory. I will be sure to report back when and if we get that SEO request to include a lawnmower article link. Oh my God. It just, I, I don’t understand the mindset and I would encourage you if you are listening. Do not think about business development that way. No. It is not the way to do it. But also, know what your team is doing. Because this is true, not just of sales pitches, but the pitches that are going out to members of the media. That’s right. Or social media folks, or, you know, influencers, whatever we want to call them today. Make sure you understand what your team is doing and make sure that you are not guilty of these bad pitches even on the media side of things because it’s very easy to fall into these traps, particularly if you’re reading up on all these people who just say, well, you just need to blast out there. You need to get out there and get out in front of many people as possible. Don’t be that person. Gini Dietrich: Well, and I would add to that. Yeah, yes. On the media pitching for sure, because I get lots, lots of those as well. And they’re really bad. But also on things like, you know, we have the trademark and copyright on the PESO model. And I honestly Chip Griffin: You do? Oh, I never I didn’t know that. Gini Dietrich: We do. I could employ an attorney full time just to follow up with the people who do not credit us. And so typically – because I’m not going to employ a full-time attorney – the process that we go through is if I know the leader of the organization, and a lot of times I do, then I send a note and I just say, Hey, listen, this isn’t, I’m sure this is an oversight. Blah blah blah. And 95% of the time they’re like, Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. And they fix it. Every time though, it’s the younger staff that are blamed every single time. So know what your staff is doing from the perspective of creating content and using models and processes and things like that, that they’ve scraped off the internet and make sure they’re giving credit because that that’s part of what we have to be thinking about as leaders is you know, not just bad sales pitches and not just bad pitches to the media, but everything that we’re doing has to be good and above board. We can’t just be letting our younger generation scrape stuff on the internet and us post it and be like, we are the ones that created the PESO model. No, you’re not. You’re not. Chip Griffin: Right. And you have to remember that any of this stuff that is going on in the name of your agency impacts your reputation. Yep. And so. You know, one of the things that I hear from agency owners a lot is, you know, Hey, I, I really need some help with my business development. I talked to someone who can do, you know, appointment setting or can help us with lead generation or outreach or those kinds of things. And look, I mean, I’ve got good friends in some of those businesses who, who do legitimate work in helping to build and scale real relationships with prospects. But there are a lot of people out there that are just treating it as a numbers game. And so if you’re thinking about getting that kind of external help. Make sure you understand what is their targeting process? What is their messaging process? You know, the, these folks who will go out there and just spam you on LinkedIn. I mean, I’ve gotten to the point now where I don’t even read my direct messages on LinkedIn. So if you’re, if you’re out there and you’re trying to reach me legitimately through direct messages on LinkedIn. Don’t bother. Send me an email separately because you’ve got a much better chance of me seeing it because my LinkedIn is just full of people requesting to connect. And, and by the way, in the, in the actual connection request, there’s a sales pitch. Yeah, knock it off. Right. Knock it off. Just try to, let’s get to know each other first before you start selling to me. That’s the value, I mean, LinkedIn can be really valuable in trying to help you, you know, make more connections, legitimate, real world connections with other people. If you’re not using it that way, you’re making a mistake. It shouldn’t be just another spam platform. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Yeah, it’s, I mean, the funny thing about it is, and I say this about marketers in general as well, is that we all hate this stuff. Like, we all experience this. We all experience the sales pitch on LinkedIn, and it makes all of us feel icky. And yet, we tend to get behind our computer screens and go, oh, well, this must be the way it’s done. And then we do it. Don’t do it. Because, just because it’s done that way, or you’ve seen it’s done that way, A, doesn’t mean it’s successful. And B, think about it, how it makes you feel. You don’t, it doesn’t make you feel good. So if you’re doing that as well, it’s not going to make the receiver of your message feel good either. Chip Griffin: And don’t get me wrong. I am not discouraging all forms of outreach because I am not, I am not of them as much as I love content marketing and things like that. I don’t believe that most agencies can completely just sit back, publish articles, or even podcasts or videos, and just sit back and wait for business to come in. You need to do more than that in order to be getting out in front of people. And so you do need to have a real, honest outreach strategy. But it is not based on just blasting out as much as you can to as many people as you can and just hoping that enough of that sticks to the wall that you actually are able to generate business over the long run. Because in the meantime, you’ve done tremendous damage to your reputation. Gini Dietrich: To your reputation. To your reputation. Chip Griffin: And you’ve taken real thought out of the process. Because when you do that, you’re inevitably hitting people that probably aren’t good fits. And then they come across and, and, and, and maybe they, they nibble at your email and so they say, sure, let’s have a conversation and all of a sudden, now you’re marching down that path and we’ve talked previously about the problem is once you get into a business development conversation most agencies are really bad at exiting even if there are red flags and flashing lights all over the place that tell them they should walk away because once you get in, you put the blinders on and you say, okay, my goal now is to close this. In part because again, they’ve read articles and books and heard videos that say, that’s what you do, right? You know, it’s just how do you take them to the next step of the sales process when in fact that next step may very well be an exit ramp that you should be taking. So if you’re the kind of person who’s doing this high volume low quality pitching for new business. You’re probably going to be a blinders on. Let’s just march through it. And you’re going to end up with clients. Sure. You’re going to end up with revenue. Yes, it’s going to be bad revenue. It’s going to make you miserable. It’s going to make your team miserable. It’s probably not going to be profitable. They’re probably not going to stick around because the expectations are probably all messed up. As you can tell, I’m a little bit wound up about this. Gini Dietrich: No, you’re absolutely right. You know, we, I have tried it all and we’ve talked about this, you and I, in both of our businesses, we’ve tried it all. And I have tried all of the lead generation. I’ve tried the lead generation agencies. I’ve tried having a sales team. I’ve tried it all. And what I have discovered is that that kind of stuff is great for businesses that sell something. But in service businesses, to your point earlier, it’s all about relationships. So even if, like I’ve even noticed that when I am pitching something with another agency and they’re the lead agency. We rarely win. And we rarely win because the the lead agency hasn’t taken the time to build the relationship. They’re like, Oh, I met with this person. They need this. I need to bring in somebody who can do X and we’re going to do Y. And then they go for, we go forth and prosper and to prosper. And it doesn’t prosper. Like there’s no, you can’t. And. You know, as I get older and more wise in my old age, I’ve learned that it really is about the relationship and it’s about developing that relationship and you’re developed, you can develop a relationship first online, you can build trust and you can build credibility. Through your content and through your podcast, all of that builds trust and credibility. You can start that relationship that way. So that by the time a person comes to you, they’re pretty, a pretty qualified warm lead. Now it’s your job to your, to your point to say, okay, is this a great client for us? Or do we need to take the exit ramp? And that’s what you should be focusing on. You should not be focusing on trying to go out and get as many leads as possible, and have as many meetings as possible, and write as many proposals as possible. It’s really about who is the right fit. And how do you find those people and build relationships with them? Chip Griffin: And I think the distinction that you drew between when you’re selling something versus selling a service. I, I think that’s a huge difference because the type of sale is different. It is. And even, you know, even when it is still somewhat of a consultative sale, but you’ve got an underlying product that you’re selling. That is fundamentally different from what agencies do. And so, a lot of these things that we’re talking about, I mean, I, I have tried them all in the agency context, and like you, they just don’t work. Period. And, and I don’t think it’s because, I mean, I probably implemented them wrong, but I don’t think it’s because I implemented them wrong. I don’t think that for 99% of agencies, and certainly most of the PR agencies who are listening, I don’t think it, it can really work. Yep. The asterisk is always, you know, those high volume digital agencies that are doing SEO and stuff like that. That is, that is a different thing. And we’ve talked about that previously. So, you know, mileage will vary distinctly in that arena. It does work. And some of these tactics have worked for me, like with CustomScoop. When I had that business, right? Absolutely. Because we had a software as a service thing that we were selling. And they still, most of them, frankly, didn’t work as well as, you know, more traditional. You know, relationship driven outreach, but they did work in ways that they would never work in my view in an agency world. So be careful when you’re out there and you’re, you’re gobbling up this sales advice, make sure you understand what that person’s background is, what were they selling? And even if they are an agency sales expert make sure you understand what kind of agency it was, because when you dig into a lot of them, a lot of the agency sales gurus out there, they do have good advice, but they really are targeted to that SEO, SEM, PPC, high volume digital, those kinds of things. And if you are not a high volume agency, and you can pick this up usually just by listening to their pitch, right? You know, if they’re talking about signing multiple clients per month, chances are they’re not talking about the kinds of agencies that are typically listening to this show, right? Because if you’re signing multiple clients a month, you’re probably not in the PR space, right? I mean, that’s just not typical of PR agencies to do that kind of volume. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say having worked for a global PR firm, they don’t have sales teams. They build relationships and they go after new business that way. And their quote unquote salespeople are the leadership team and whoever’s going to work on the account. So they could bring in account executives all the way up to the general manager, but that’s who the quote unquote sales team is. It’s never a traditional salesperson ever. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, to the extent they have anybody in that space, sometimes they have like RFP teams that spend their time just Right. You know, wasting time and money. Yes. You know, responding to RFPs because it makes everybody feel good to say that you did it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Had to get in an RFP dig somewhere? You know. Gini Dietrich: I, it’s really sage advice, you know, it’s, it’s really about relationships. It’s about developing those relationships and spending the time to build those relationships, both online and off. With the, with your target audience versus sending out as many pitches as you possibly can. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and the next time that you are inclined to say, hey, I need to try something like this or, you know, that sounds like a good idea. I encourage you, open up your inbox and look through all those emails that you skipped over. Great. Click on them. Great advice. Read them. Yep. Ask yourself why you skipped over them. Do you want to be that person? I don’t think so. If it doesn’t work with you, chances are, it’s not going to work with your ideal prospect. Such good advice. Yes. In any case, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I will stop ranting and raving. I love it. Move on with my day. And I encourage you to as well. Gini Dietrich: It’s very cathartic. It’s very cathartic. Chip Griffin: I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Spin Sucks invented (and copyrighted) the PESO Model. I've recently been binging all of Gini Dietrich's stuff… and this is her jam. It's an integrated approach to communications that blends paid, earned, shared, and owned media to establish thought leadership, credibility, trust, and authority that fuel a brand reputation.P: PaidE: EarnedS: SharedO: OwnedWhether you're a marketer, PR professional, or business owner, understanding and implementing this model will improve your marketing strategies. Resources mentioned in this episode:Spin Sucks: https://spinsucks.com/My Newsletter: https://www.mediamavenandmore.com/newsletter/My Cookbook Reel: https://www.instagram.com/p/Ctpl3zZuBuO/The Media Mentoring Program: http://mediamentoringprogram.com/Become a Media Maven Podcast: https://www.mediamavenandmore.com/podcast/Join Christina's newsletter for insider tips on growing your business without ads here.Become a contributor to a top website to build your brand with free resources here.Click here to join Christina's 3-hour bootcamp Pitch Publicity Profit. Follow Christina on social media at: Website Facebook Twitter Instagram LinkedIn YouTube TikTok If you liked this episode, please subscribe to this podcast to hear more like it. Tell your colleagues, friends, and family… and don't forget to tap that subscribe button. For more podcast episodes, tap here.

If you work in PR, you know the name Gini Deitrich, and if you don't.. well.. get out your notepads because class is in session! Dynamic and insightful, Gini is the founder and CEO of Arment Dietrich, author of "Spin Sucks" (the book and the blog), and host of the "Spin Sucks" podcast. She is the creator of the PESO Model™ and has crafted a certification for it in partnership with Syracuse University. She is the co-author of "Marketing in the Round," co-host of "Inside PR," and co-host of "The Agency Leadership" podcast. The PR Podcast is your view inside the public relations business. We talk with great PR people, reporters, and communicators about how they weave narratives that are informative and fun.  Host ⁠Jody Fisher⁠ has worked in New York City PR for more than 20 years, representing clients across the healthcare, higher education, financial services, real estate, entertainment, and non-profit verticals.  Join the conversation on ⁠Facebook⁠, ⁠Twitter⁠, ⁠Instagram⁠, and ⁠TikTok⁠ at @ThePRPodcast. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/theprpodcast/support

It can be easy to create the expectation that you're always available via email or slack or any of the other channels we use to communicate with our teams and clients. On today's episode of the Spin Sucks podcast, Gini Dietrich is talking about how to create a culture of communication that is a little easier to manage.