Podcast appearances and mentions of Al Lewis

Recently on Relentless Health Value, we've been tinkering around with a few recurring themes—recurring through lines—that are just true about American healthcare these days. In this episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Christine Hale about high cost claimants and the implications for healthcare plans in 2025 and beyond. They discuss the importance of trust in patient care, the financial incentives behind patient steering, and the critical role of timely and comprehensive data analysis. Dr. Hale emphasizes the need for an integrated approach to medical and pharmacy claims data to avoid expensive consequences and improve patient outcomes. She also shares strategies for plan sponsors to effectively manage high cost claimants through evidence-based care, appropriate treatment settings, and creative problem-solving, while underlining the importance of patient engagement and satisfaction. Don't miss next week's episode with Dr. Eric Bricker for a deeper dive into these topics. === LINKS ===

So, the show today, it's sort of an encore but not really an encore because I recorded this whole new introduction that you are currently listening to. And I also did a few inserts that we popped into the show itself. Inserts from the future, you might say. For a full transcript of this episode, click here. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe. But why did I pull this episode from 2021, you might be wondering, as an immediate follow-on to the show from last week (EP469) about possible Medicaid cuts? Well, for one thing, the show last week about Medicaid cuts was about how the cuts might impact plan sponsors. And it left me feeling a little bit like part of the story was going unsaid. So much of what happens in healthcare, we see numbers on a spreadsheet but can easily lose track of human beings. I was reading something the other day. It reminded me of the people behind these numbers. I don't know if this happened in rural America, but it easily could have. Here's the link. Someone could not get a needed surgery. This surgery had all of the medical necessity boxes checked, except the hospital would not perform the needed surgery without cash up front in prepayment. This patient, he did not have enough money to cover the prepayment. So, somebody in the hospital finance department gave him a solution: Just wait until the situation becomes life-threatening, and then I guess you can go to the ER with your newly life-threatening condition, and they will have to perform the surgery without the money up front. And here we have the theme of people not being able to afford or not being able to access primary care or, in this case, I guess something more than that—a surgery—and they wind up in the emergency room. As John Lee, MD, put it, the healthcare system in this country is like a balloon. And the way we are currently squeezing it, everybody is getting squeezed into the emergency room—which is the very most expensive place to obtain care, of course, especially when that care is non-emergent. In rural America, this is particularly true. Now, by no means am I suggesting any kind of magic bullet to this Medicaid situation. As we all know, health and healthcare are not the same thing as health insurance; and we all know enough about the issues with Medicaid. That is not what the show is about. The episode that follows with Nikki King, who is my guest today, offers some great advice when there's just such a scarcity of clinicians available; and she does a great job of it. So, I am going to spend my time with you in this intro talking about rural hospitals in rural areas—the place where many patients wind up when they cannot get primary care in their community, just exacerbating all of the issues we have with Medicaid and affording Medicaid. But yeah, even if there is adequate or even great primary care, you still kind of need a hospital. The thing is, if an economic situation emerges where, say, for example—and this is the case in a lot of rural places—let's just say a factory or two or a mine or whatever closes down. It might mean the local hospital also closes down if that local hospital was dependent on commercial lives and cost shifting to those commercial lives. Like, this is not higher math or anything. It's easy to see how a doom loop immediately gets triggered. Recall that one big reason—and Cynthia Fisher (EP457) talked about this in an episode from a few months ago—one reason why employers in rural areas are choosing to move facilities somewhere else or overseas is that hospital costs are too high in the USA in these rural areas. So, they are closing their factory down because the hospital is charging too much. The lower the volume of commercial lives, the higher the hospital winds up raising their prices for the other employers in the area. Now, there's a point that comes up a lot in 2025 in conversations about rural hospital financials or just hospital financials in general, I guess. I had a conversation with Brad Brockbank about this a while back, and I've been mulling over it ever since. There are many who strongly suggest the reason why rural and other hospitals are in trouble is squarely because they don't have enough patients with commercial insurance in their payer mix. As Nathan Kaufman wrote on LinkedIn the other day, he wrote, “The ‘tipping point' is the percent of commercial gross revenues. When most hospitals hit 25%, if they don't have commercial rates in the high 300% [over Medicare] range, things begin to unravel.” And look, I'm not gonna argue any of the points here. How would I know? For any given hospital, it could be a financial imperative to try to get 300% over Medicare out of the local employers. I don't doubt it. The question I would ask, if someone knows that hospital finances are currently dependent on cost shifting, especially in a rural area with unstable industry, what are the choices that are made by hospital boards or leadership? Is this current dependency used as a justification to level up the cost shifting to local employers just as volume diminishes keep charging more, which is ultimately going to cause even more employers to leave the area? Which seems to be kind of a default. It's like the safety valve is, charge the local employers more. The point I'm making here is not all that profound, actually. It's just to point out that safety valve, taking advantage of it, comes with downstream impact that actually worsens a situation. So, what do we do now? And similar to the Medicaid, what I just said about Medicaid, I'm not showing up with any silver bullet here. And running a hospital is ridiculously hard. So, I do not wanna minimize that. And I certainly do not wanna minimize Medicare advantage paying less than Medicare going on and the mental health crisis and the just crippling issues that a lot of rural hospitals face. Here's a link to a really interesting report by the Center for Healthcare Quality & Payment Reform (CHQPR) about the ways hospitals can restructure and rethink how they deliver services, but I will take a moment to point out some case studies of success for what happens when people crossed off go get more money from the local employers off the list. Then there's also FQHCs (Federally Qualified Health Centers) doing some amazing things even in rural areas. Listen to the episode a while back with Doug Eby, MD, MPH, CPE (EP312) about the Nuka System of Care in Alaska, serving areas so rural, you need to take a prop plane to get to them. Their patients, their members have some of the best outcomes in the entire country. Their secret: yeah … great primary care teams that include behavioral health, the doctor, the nurse, a whole crew. And look at us. We've come full circle. Primary care (good primary care, I mean) is an investment. Everything else is a cost. Lastly, let me just offer a very large update: Today, you cannot just say rural hospital anymore and automatically mean a hospital in dire financial straits struggling to, like, make the rent. Large consolidated hospital systems have bought up so many rural hospitals for all kinds of reasons that may (or maybe not) have less to do with mission and more to do with all the things I discussed with Brennan Bilberry (EP395) in the episode entitled “Consolidated Hospital Systems and Cunning Anticompetitive Contracts.” Here is the original episode with Nikki King. Nikki, let me just mention, has gotten a new job since she was on the pod. She is now the CEO of Alliance Health Centers in Indiana. Also mentioned in this episode are Alliance Health Centers; John Lee, MD; Cynthia Fisher; Patient Rights Advocate; Brad Brockbank; Nathan Kaufman; Doug Eby, MD, MPH, CPE; Nuka System of Care; and Brennan Bilberry.   You can learn more at Alliance Health Centers and by following Nikki on LinkedIn.   Nikki King, MHSA, DHA, is the chief executive officer for Alliance Health Centers, Inc. Her work serves both urban and rural populations and is focused on substance abuse, communities underserved in healthcare, affordable housing, and economic development. Before working in the healthcare industry, she worked for the Center of Business and Economic Research studying models of sustainability in rural communities. Growing up as a first-generation college student in Appalachia, she brings lived experience of rural communities and approaches her work in healthcare as pivotal in breaking the cycle of poverty. Nikki completed her DHA at the Medical University of South Carolina and her MHSA from Xavier University.   08:14 How dire is the rural hospital situation right now? 08:33 How could freestanding ERs be a potential solution for rural hospitals? 09:56 Advice from CHQPR: Rural hospitals should not be forced to eliminate inpatient care. 11:22 Why is broadband a roadblock to telehealth as a solution for rural health access? 14:52 What are other potential rural health access solutions? 15:37 The “hot potato” of nurse practitioners in the healthcare world. 16:34 “The number of residencies for physicians each year is not increasing, but the population … is increasing.” 20:28 EP312 with Douglas Eby, MD, MPH, CPE, of the Nuka System of Care. 22:00 What's the issue with maternity care in rural America? 24:09 “As healthcare becomes more and more specialized, [the] ability to treat high-risk cases is better, but access gets worse.” 27:57 How is mental health care affected in rural communities? 28:29 “Rural communities are trying very hard to hang on to what they have.” 29:52 “When you look at the one market plan that's available in a rural community, you probably can't afford it.” 31:37 What's the single biggest challenge to moving to a model that incentivizes keeping people healthy? 32:32 “The easiest low-hanging fruit … is having national Medicaid and have that put under the same hood as Medicare.”   You can learn more at Alliance Health Centers and by following Nikki on LinkedIn.   Nikki King, MHSA, DHA, discusses #ruralhospitals and #ruralprimarycare. #healthcare #podcast #changemanagement #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! James Gelfand (Part 2), James Gelfand (Part 1), Matt McQuide, Stacey Richter (EP467), Vivian Ho, Chris Crawford (EP465), Al Lewis, Betsy Seals, Wendell Potter (Encore! EP384), Dr Scott Conard, Stacey Richter (INBW42)

TVC 683.5: Ed, Tony, and Donna welcome back Hank Garrett, the actor known around the world as Officer Nicholson on Car 54, Where Are You? and one of the most accomplished voice artists in the entertainment industry. Topics this segment include how Hank first developed his skill for dialects after watching Sid Caesar rehearse for Your Show of Shows. Hank's memoir, From Harlem Hoodlum to Hollywood Heavyweight, is available through Briton Publishing, Amazon.com, and other online retailers.

In part 1 of this two part episode, Stacey Richter speaks with James Gelfand, President and CEO of the ERISA Industry Committee (ERIC), about the potential effects of proposed Medicaid cuts on plan sponsors and their members.  They explore ways plan sponsors can prepare for the changes, including Medicaid's four major areas of possible cuts: reducing waste, fraud, and abuse; implementing work requirements; reeling in provider taxes; and addressing the 'Cornhusker Kickback' from the ACA.  The conversation also delves into how state governments and hospitals might respond to these cuts and suggests actions for plan sponsors to mitigate potential impacts. The episode is part one of a two-part series, with the second episode covering Medicare site neutral payments and HSA reforms. === LINKS ===

Send us a textThis week, the Bad Piano Player begins a series of three "Songwriters You've Never Heard Of" episodes and we begin with Fats Domino's favorite lyricist, the great Al Lewis. Why was he Fats Domino's fave lyricist? Tune and find out!

Here's my new idea for an episode. Welcome to it. I want to talk about a major theme running through the last few episodes of Relentless Health Value. And this theme is, heads up, going to continue through a few upcoming shows as well. For a full transcript of this episode, click here. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe. We have Matt McQuide coming up, talking about patient engagement, and Christine Hale, MD, MBA, talking about high-cost claimants. And we also have an encore coming up with Kenny Cole, MD, talking about a lot of things; but patient trust is one of them. But before I get to the main theme to ponder here, let me talk about what gets selected to talk about on Relentless Health Value. I will freely admit, how topics for shows get picked, it's not exactly a linear sort of affair. And furthermore, even if it were, I can't always get the stars to align to get a specific cluster of guests to all come on like one after the other. So, for sure, it might be less than obvious at times where my head is at—and sometimes, admittedly, I don't even know. This may sound incredibly scattershot (and it probably is), but in my defense, this whole healthcare thing, in case you didn't know, it's really complicated. Every time I get a chance to chat with an expert, I learn something new. I feel like it's almost impossible to sit in a vacuum and mastermind some kind of grand insight. Very, very fortunately, I don't need to sit in a cave and do all this heavy thinking all by myself. We got ourselves a tribe here of like-minded, really smart folks between the guests and you lot, all of you in the tribe of listeners who are here every week. Yeah, you rock! And I can always count on you to start teasing out the themes and the through lines and the really key actionable points. You email me. You write great posts and comments on LinkedIn and elsewhere. Even if I am a little bit behind the eight ball translating my instinct into an actual trend line, it doesn't slow this bus down. It's you who keeps it moving, which is why I can confidently say it's you all who are to blame for this new idea I came up with the other day after the podcast with Al Lewis (EP464) triggered so much amazing and really deep insight and dot connecting back and forth that hooked together the past six, I'm gonna say, or so shows. Let's just start at the beginning. Let's start with the topics that have been discussed in the past several episodes of the pod. Here I go. Emergency room visits are now costing about 6% of total plan sponsor spend on average. That was the holy crap moment from the episode with Al Lewis (EP464). Emergency room volume is up, and also prices are up. In that show with Al Lewis, I did quote John Lee, MD, who is an emergency room doctor, by the way. I quoted him because he told a story about a patient who came into the ER, winds up getting a big workup in his ER. Dr. Lee says he sees this situation a lot where the patient comes in, they've had something going on for a while, they've tried to make an appointment with their PCP or even urgent care, they could not get in. It's also really hard to coordinate and get all the blood work or the scans and have that all looked at that's needed for the workup to even happen. I've spoken with multiple ER doctors at this point, and they all say pretty much the same thing. They see the same scenario happen often enough, maybe even multiple times a day. Patient comes in with something that may or may not be emergent, and they are now in the ER because they've been worried about it for weeks or months. And the ER is like the only place where they can get to the bottom of what is going on with their body. And then the patient, you know, they spend the whole day in the ER getting what amounts to weeks' worth of outpatient workup accomplished and scans and imaging and labs. And there's no prior authing anything down. It's also incredibly expensive. Moving on from the Al Lewis show, earlier than that I had had on Rushika Fernandopulle, MD (EP460) and then also Scott Conard, MD (EP462). Both are PCPs, both talking about primary care and what makes good primary care and what makes bad primary care and how our current “healthcare marketplace,” as Dr. Conard puts it, incentivizes either no primary care and/or primary care where volume driven throughput is the name of the game—you know, like seeing 25 patients a day. These visits or episodes of care are often pretty transactional. If relationships are formed, it's because the doctor and/or the patient are rising above the system, not the other way around. And none of that is good for primary care doctors, nurses, or other clinicians. It's also not good for patients, and it's not good for plan sponsors or any of the ultimate purchasers here (taxpayers, patients themselves) because while all of this is going on, those patients getting no or not good primary care are somebody's next high-cost claimant. Okay, so those were the shows with Rushika Fernandopulle and Scott Conard. Then this past week was the show with Vivian Ho, PhD (EP466), who discusses the incentives that hospital leadership often has. And these incentives may actually sound great on paper, but IRL, they wind up actually jacking up prices and set up some weird incentives to increase the number of beds and the heads in them. There was also two shows, one of them with Betsy Seals (EP463) and then another one with Wendell Potter (EP384), about Medicare Advantage and what payers are up to. Alright, so let's dig in. What's the big theme? What's the big through line here? Let's take it from the top. Theme 1 is largely this (and Scott Conard actually said this flat out in his show): Primary care—good primary care, I mean—is an investment. Everything else is a cost. And those skyrocketing ER costs are pure evidence of this. Again, listen to that show with Al Lewis earlier (EP464) for a lot of details about this. But total plan costs … 6% are ER visits. Tim Denman from Premise Health wrote, “That is an insane number! Anything over 2% warrants concern.” But yeah, these days we have, on average across the country, 200 plan members out of 1000 every single year dipping into their local ER. That number, by the way, will rise and fall depending on the access and availability of primary care and/or good urgent cares. Here's from a Web site entitled ER Visit Statistics, Facts & Trends: “In the United States, emergency room visits often highlight gaps in healthcare accessibility. Many individuals turn to ERs for conditions that could have been managed through preventative or primary care. … This indicates that inadequate access to healthcare often leads to increased reliance on emergency departments. … “ED visits can entail significant costs, particularly when a considerable portion of these visits is classified as non-urgent. … [Non-urgent] visits—not requiring immediate medical intervention—often lead to unnecessary expenditures that could be better allocated in primary care settings.” And by the way, if you look at the total cost across the country of ER visits, it's billions and billions and billions of dollars. In 2017, ED visits (I don't have a stat right in front of me), but in 2017, ED visits were $76.3 billion in the United States. Alright, so, the Al Lewis show comes out, I see that, and then, like a bolt of lightning, François de Brantes, MBA, enters the chat. François de Brantes was on Relentless Health Value several years ago (EP220). I should have him come back on. But François de Brantes cemented with mortar the connectivity between runaway ER costs and the lack of primary care. He started out talking actually about a new study from the Milbank Memorial Fund. Only like 5% of our spend going to primary care is way lower than any other developed country in the world—all of whom, of course, have far higher life expectancies than us. So, yeah … they might be onto something. François de Brantes wrote (with some light editing), “Setting aside the impotence of policies, the real question we should ask ourselves is whether we're looking at the right numbers. The short answer is no, with all due respect to the researchers that crunched the numbers. That's probably because the lens they're using is incredibly narrow and misses everything else.” And he's talking now about, is that 5% primary care number actually accurate? François de Brantes continues, “Consider, for example, that in commercially insured plans, the total spend on … EDs is 6% or more.” And then he says, “Check out Stacey Richter's podcast on the subject, but 6% is essentially what researchers say is spent on, you know, ‘primary care.' Except … they don't count those costs, the ER costs. They don't count many other costs that are for primary care, meaning for the treatment of routine preventative and sick care, all the things that family practices used to manage but don't anymore. They don't count them because those services are rendered by clinicians other than those in primary care practice.” François concludes (and he wrote a great article) that if you add up all the dollars that are spent on things that amount to primary care but just didn't happen in a primary care office, it's conservatively around 17% of total dollars. So, yeah … it's not like anyone is saving money by not making sure that every plan member or patient across the country has a relationship with an actual primary care team—you know, a doctor or a nurse who they can get on the phone with who knows them. Listen to the show coming up with Matt McQuide. This theme will continue. But any plan not making sure that primary care happens in primary care offices is shelling out for the most expensive primary care money can buy, you know, because it's gonna happen either in the ER or elsewhere. Jeff Charles Goldsmith, PhD, put this really well. He wrote, “As others have said, [this surge in ER dollars is a] direct consequence of [a] worsening primary care shortage.” Then Dr. John Lee turned up. He, I had quoted on the Al Lewis show, but he wrote a great post on LinkedIn; and part of it was this: “Toward a systemic solution, [we gotta do some unsqueezing of the balloon]. Stacey and Al likened our system to a squeezed balloon, with pressure forcing patients into the [emergency room]. The true solution is to ‘unsqueeze' the system by improving access to care outside the [emergency room]. Addressing these upstream issues could prevent patients from ending up in the [emergency room]. … While the necessary changes are staring us in the face, unsqueezing the balloon is far more challenging than it sounds.” And speaking of ER docs weighing in, then we had Mick Connors, MD, who left a banger of a comment with a bunch of suggestions to untangle some of these challenges that are more challenging than they may sound at first glance that Dr. Lee mentions. And as I said, he's a 30-year pediatric emergency physician, so I'm inclined to take his suggestions seriously. You can find them on LinkedIn. But yeah, I can see why some communities are paying 40 bucks a month or something for patients without access to primary care to get it just like they pay fire departments or police departments. Here's a link to Primary Care for All Americans, who are trying to help local communities get their citizens primary care. And Dr. Conard talked about this a little bit in that episode (EP462). I can also see why plan sponsors have every incentive to change the incentives such that primary care teams can be all in on doing what they do. Dr. Fernandopulle (EP460) hits on this. This is truly vital, making sure that the incentives are right, because we can't forget, as Rob Andrews has said repeatedly, organizations do what you pay them to do. And unless a plan sponsor gets into the mix, it is super rare to encounter anybody paying anybody for amazing primary care in an actual primary care setting. At that point, Alex Sommers, MD, ABEM, DipABLM, arrived on the scene; and he wrote (again with light editing—sorry, I can't read), “This one is in my wheelhouse. There is a ton that could be done here. There just has to be strategy in any given market. It's a function of access, resources, and like-minded employers willing to invest in a direct relationship with providers. But not just any providers. Providers who are willing to solve a big X in this case. You certainly don't need a trauma team on standby to remove a splinter or take off a wart. A great advanced primary care relationship is one way, but another thing is just access to care off-hours with the resources to make a difference in a cost-plus model. You can't help everybody at once. But you can help a lot of people if there is a collaborative opportunity.” And then Dr. Alex Sommers continues. He says, “We already have EKG, most procedures and supplies, X-ray, ultrasounds, and MRI in our clinics. All that's missing is a CT scanner. It just takes a feasible critical mass to invest in a given geography for that type of alternative care model to alter the course here. Six percent of plan spend going to the ER. My goodness.” So, then we have Ann Lewandowski, who just gets to the heart of the matter and the rate critical for primary care to become the investment that it could be: trust. Ann Lewandowski says, “I 100% agree with all of this, basically. I think strong primary care that promotes trust before things get so bad people think they need to go to the emergency room is the way to go.” This whole human concept of trust is a gigantic requirement for clinical and probably financial success. We need primary care to be an investment, but for it to be an investment, there's got to be relationships and there has to be trust between patients and their care teams. Now, neither relationships nor trust are super measurable constructs, so it's really easy for some finance pro to do things in the name of efficiency or optimization that undermine the entire spirit of the endeavor without even realizing it. Then we have a lot of primary care that doesn't happen in primary care offices. It happens in care settings like the ER. So, let's tug this theme along to the shows that concern carriers, meaning the shows with Wendell Potter (EP384) on how shareholders influence carrier behavior and with Betsy Seals (EP463) on Medicare Advantage plans and what they're up to. Here's where the primary care/ER through line starts to connect to carriers. Here's a LinkedIn post by the indomitable Steve Schutzer, MD. Dr. Schutzer wrote about the Betsy Seals conversation, and he said, “Stacey, you made a comment during this fabulous episode with Betsy that I really believe should be amplified from North to South, coast to coast—something that unfortunately is not top of mind for many in this industry. And that was ‘focus on the value that accrues to the patient'—period, end of story. That is the north star of the [value-based care] movement, lest we forget. Financial outcome measures are important in the value equation, but the numerator must be about the patient. As always, grateful for your insights and ongoing leadership.” Oh, thank you so much. And same to you. Grateful for yours. Betsy Seals in that podcast, though, she reminded carrier listeners about this “think about the value accruing to the patient” in that episode. And in the Wendell Potter encore that came out right before the show with Betsy, yeah, what Wendell said kind of made me realize why Betsy felt it important to remind carriers to think about the value accruing to patients. Wall Street rewards profit maximization in the short term. It does not reward value accruing to the patient. However—and here's me agreeing with Dr. Steve Schutzer, because I think this is what underlies his comment—if what we're doing gets so far removed from what is of value to the patient, then yeah, we're getting so removed from the human beings we're allegedly serving, that smart people can make smart decisions in theoretical model world. But what's being done lacks a fundamental grounding in actual reality. And that's dangerous for plan members, but it's also pretty treacherous from a business and legal perspective, as I think we're seeing here. Okay, so back to our theme of broken primary care and accelerating ER costs. Are carriers getting in there and putting a stop to it? I mean, as aforementioned about 8 to 10 times, if you have a broken primary care system, you're gonna pay for primary care, alright. It's just gonna be in really expensive care settings. You gotta figure carriers are wise to this and they're the ones that are supposed to be keeping healthcare costs under control for all America. Well, relative to keeping ER costs under control, here's a link to a study Vivian Ho, PhD, sent from Health Affairs showing how much ER prices have gone up. ER prices are way higher than they used to be. So, you'd think that carriers would have a huge incentive to get members primary care and do lots and lots of things to ensure that not only would members have access to primary care, but it'd be amazing primary care with doctors and nurses that were trusted and relationships that would be built. It'd be salad days for value. Except … they're not doing a whole lot at any scale that I could find. We have Iora and ChenMed and a few others aside. These are advanced primary care groups that are deployed by carriers, and these organizations can do great things. But I also think they serve—and this came up in the Dr. Fernandopulle show (EP460)—they serve like 1% of overall patient populations. Dr. Fernandopulle talked about this in the context of why these advanced primary care disruptors may have great impact on individual patients but they have very little overall impact at a national scale. They're just not scaled, and they're not nationwide. But why not? I mean, why aren't carriers all over this stuff? Well, first of all—and again, kind of like back to the Wendell show (EP384) now—if we're thinking short term, as a carrier, like Wall Street encourages, you know, quarter by quarter, and if only the outlier, mission-driven folks (the knights) in any given carrier organization are checking what's going on actually with plans, members, and patients like Betsy advised, keep in mind it's a whole lot cheaper and it's easier to just deny care. And you can do that at scale if you get yourself an AI engine and press Go. Or you can come up with, I don't know, exciting new ways to maximize your risk adjustment and upcoding. There's an article that was written by Sergei Polevikov, ABD, MBA, MS, MA

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This episode has three chapters. Each one answers a key question, and, bottom line, it all adds up to action steps directly and indirectly for many, including plan sponsors probably, community leaders, and also hospital boards of directors. Here's the three chapters in sum. For a full transcript of this episode, click here. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe. Chapter 1: Are commercial insurance premiums rising faster than the inflation rate? And if so, is the employee portion of those premiums also rising, meaning a double whammy for employees' paychecks (ie, premium costs are getting bigger and bigger in an absolute sense, and also employees' relative share of those bigger costs is also bigger)? Spoiler alert: yes and yes. Chapter 2: What is the biggest reason for these premium increases? Like, if you look at the drivers of cost that underpin those rising premiums, what costs a lot that is making these premiums cost a lot? Spoiler alert: It's hospitals and the price increases at hospitals. And just in case anyone is wondering, this isn't, “Oh, chargemasters went up” or some kind of other tangential factor. We're talking about the revenue that hospitals are taking on services delivered has gone up and gone up way higher than the inflation rate. In fact, hospital costs have gone up over double the amount that premiums have gone up. Wait, what? That's a fact that Dr. Vivian Ho said today that threw my brain for a loop: Hospital costs have gone up over double the amount that premiums have gone up. Chapter 3: Is the reason that hospital prices have rocketed up as they have because the underlying costs these hospitals face are also going up way higher than the inflation rate? Like, for example, are nurses' salaries skyrocketing and doctors are getting paid a lot more than the inflation rate? Stuff like this. Too many eggs in the cafeteria. Way more charity care. Bottom line, is an increase in underlying costs the reason for rising hospital prices? Spoiler alert: no. No to all of the above. And I get into this deeply with Dr. Vivian Ho today. But before I do, I do just want to state with three underlines not all hospitals are the same. But yeah, you have many major consolidated hospitals crying about their, you know, “razor-thin margins” who are, it turns out, incentivizing their C-suites to do things that ultimately wind up raising prices. I saw a PowerPoint flying around—you may have seen it, too—that was apparently presented by a nonprofit hospital at JP Morgan, and it showed this nonprofit hospital with a 15.1% EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization) in 2024. Not razor thin in my book. It's a, the boards of directors are structuring C-suite incentives in ways that ultimately will raise prices. If you want to dig in a little deeper on hospital boards and what they may be up to, listen to the show with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA (EP404). Vivian Ho, PhD, my guest today, is a professor and faculty member at Rice University and Baylor College of Medicine. Her most major role these days is working on health policy at Baker Institute at Rice University. Her work there is at the national, state, and local levels conducting objective research that informs policymakers on how to improve healthcare. Today on the show, Professor Vivian Ho mentions research with Salpy Kanimian and Derek Jenkins, PhD. Alright, so just one quick sidebar before we get into the show. There is a lot going on with hospitals right now. So, before we kick in, let me just make one really important point. A hospital's contribution to medical research, like doing cancer clinical trials, is not the same as how a hospital serves or overcharges their community or makes decisions that increase or reduce their ability to improve the health and well-being of patients and members who wind up in or about the hospital. Huge, consolidated hospital networks can be doing great things that have great value and also, at the exact same time, kind of harmful things clinically and financially that negatively impact lots of Americans and doing all of that simultaneously. This is inarguable. Also mentioned in this episode are Rice University's Baker Institute for Public Policy; Baker Institute Center for Health Policy; Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA; Salpy Kanimian; Derek Jenkins, PhD; Byron Hugley; Michael Strain; Dave Chase; Zack Cooper, PhD; Houston Business Coalition on Health (HBCH); Marilyn Bartlett, CPA, CGMA, CMA, CFM; Cora Opsahl; Claire Brockbank; Shawn Gremminger; Autumn Yongchu; Erik Davis; Ge Bai, PhD, CPA; Community Health Choice; Mark Cuban; and Ferrin Williams, PharmD, MBA. For further reading, check out this LinkedIn post.   You can learn more at Rice University's Center for Health Policy (LinkedIn) and Department of Economics and by following Vivian on LinkedIn.   Vivian Ho, PhD, is the James A. Baker III Institute Chair in Health Economics, a professor in the Department of Economics at Rice University, a professor in the Department of Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, and a nonresident senior scholar in the USC Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics. Ho's research examines the effects of economic incentives and regulations on the quality and costs of health care. Her research is widely published in economics, medical, and health services research journals. Ho's research has been funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the American Cancer Society, and Arnold Ventures. Ho has served on the Board of Scientific Counselors for the National Center for Health Statistics, as well as on the NIH Health Services, Outcomes, and Delivery study section. She was elected as a member of the National Academy of Medicine in 2020. Ho is also a founding board member of the American Society for Health Economists and a member of the Community Advisory Board at Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas. Ho received her AB in economics from Harvard University, a graduate diploma in economics from The Australian National University, and a PhD in economics from Stanford University.   05:12 Are insurance premiums going up? 05:59 What is the disparity between cost of insurance and wage increases? 06:21 LinkedIn post by Byron Hugley. 06:25 Article by Michael Strain. 06:46 How much have insurance premiums gone up for employers versus employees? 09:06 Chart showing the cost to insure populations of employees and families. 10:17 What is causing hospital prices and insurance premiums to go up so exponentially? 12:53 Article by (and tribute to) Uwe Reinhardt. 13:49 EP450 with Marilyn Bartlett, CPA, CGMA, CMA, CFM. 14:01 EP452 with Cora Opsahl. 14:03 EP453 with Claire Brockbank. 14:37 EP371 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 15:28 Are razor-thin operating margins for hospitals causing these rising hospital prices? 16:56 Collaboration with Marilyn Bartlett and the NASHP Hospital Cost Tool. 19:47 What is the explanation that hospitals give for justifying these profits? 23:16 How do these hospital cost increases actually happen? 27:06 Study by Zack Cooper, PhD. 27:35 EP404 with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA. 27:50 Who typically makes up a hospital board, and why do these motivations incentivize hospital price increases? 30:12 EP418 with Mark Cuban and Ferrin Williams, PharmD, MBA. 33:17 Why is it vital that change start at the board level?   You can learn more at Rice University's Center for Health Policy (LinkedIn) and Department of Economics and by following Vivian on LinkedIn.   Vivian Ho discusses #healthinsurance #premiums and #hospitalpricing on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #changemanagement #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Chris Crawford (EP465), Al Lewis, Betsy Seals, Wendell Potter (Encore! EP384), Dr Scott Conard, Stacey Richter (INBW42), Chris Crawford (EP461), Dr Rushika Fernandopulle, Bill Sarraille, Stacey Richter (INBW41)  

Emergency room costs now make up 6% of total healthcare plan spending—why? In this episode, host Stacey Richter welcomes Al Lewis to break down the data behind rising ER expenses, separating fact from fiction. They discuss whether increased patient acuity or widespread upcoding is driving costs, the impact of the No Surprises Act, and why plan sponsors struggle to negotiate fair ER rates. Plus, Al shares actionable strategies for employers to push back against inflated charges. If you want to understand the hidden forces behind escalating ER bills, this is a must-listen. You can find the charts and links mentioned in the show notes in the link below. === LINKS ===

KiddChris and Sara discuss the 67th Grammy Awards, including low ratings, a "vanilla" host, and a controversial win for Beyonce. Was it a "country" win?KiddChris and Sara react to a tragic plane crash in Philadelphia, describing the scene and the fatalities. What caused these tragedies?KiddChris and Sara discuss the anniversary of Marge Schott's suspension for racial slurs. Could that happen today?Al Lewis, who played Grandpa Munster, and his TV appearances. What kind of fights did he get into?KiddChris recalls his Zoom bombing pranks during the pandemic and plays one of them. Also, some prank calls he made to Asian restaurants as "Country Jeff."The Justin Tucker's massage parlor controversy continues. How many women have accused him?KiddChris and Sara discuss a painting found at a garage sale that may be a Van Gogh. How can they verify it? Authenticity: They talk about how hard it is to verify the authenticity of valuable items and discuss certificates of authenticity. Are they worthless?

“Our Miss Brooks: The Cafeteria Boycott” was written by Al Lewis, originally broadcast on CBS on March 14, 1949. The Icebox Radio Theater's presentation was directed by Jeffrey Adams and featured David Griffith as Mr Boyton and Walker, Jeffrey Adams as Principal Conklin, Diane Adams as Mrs Davis and Harriet, Caleb Silvers as Mr Dunbar, Justin Kapla as Stretch and Msr LeBlanc and starring Aela Mackintosh as Our Miss Brooks. Sound effects engineer was Senara Erwin. This program was recorded before a live audience on Sep 13, 2024 at the Salty Jester in Int'l Falls, Minnesota. This program copyright 2024 by the Icebox Radio Theater, all rights reserved. For more information, visit iceboxradio.org.

Al Lewis, known as the 'Quizmeister-In-Chief,' brings his impressive resume to episode 86 of The HIT Podcast! From his time as a Jeopardy! contestant to his roles as an author, radio host, CEO, and more, Al now adds 'guest of The HIT Podcast' to his list of achievements. Tune in as he shares his innovative approach to gamifying health information for employees, empowering smarter consumers, and having plenty of fun along the way. About the Show:The H.I.T. Podcast (Powered by Montage Insurance Solutions): A thought leader in the space, curating the top news and information to deliver a brief, high impact overview designed specifically for the Human Resources professional, business person, and company executive.Find out more here: www.hitpodcast.comSpecial thanks to our Platinum Sponsors: TruHu AND Excel Health PlansThank you to our Gold Sponsors: Kingdom Legacy Benefits (KLB) AND Cigna

GGACP celebrates the birthday of veteran character actor Hank Garrett (b. October 26th) by revisiting this 2016 interview with the man who played Officer Ed Nicholson on Gilbert's beloved “Car 54, Where Are You?". In this episode, Hank reminisces about working with Robert Redford, Sophia Loren, Al Pacino and Kirk Douglas (to name a few) and tells the boys about his unlikely journey from street tough to award-winning actor. Also, Hank remembers Al Lewis, emulates Sid Caesar, wrestles with Luca Brasi and shares a bill with Tony Bennett. PLUS: Gorgeous George! The Great Ballantine! The legend of Joe E. Ross! Gilbert meets Nipsey Russell! The genius of Nat Hiken! And Hank reveals how Sammy Davis Jr. changed his life! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Notes S5E34 -- Join us as we dive into the mind of Butch Patrick. He'll tell us tales of days on the Munsters to Lidsville and beyond. Butch Patrick (born Patrick Alan Lilley; August 2, 1953) is an American actor and musician. Beginning his professional acting career at the age of seven, Patrick is perhaps best known for his role as child werewolf Eddie Munster on the CBS comedy television series The Munsters from 1964 to 1966 and in the 1966 feature film Munster, Go Home!, and as Mark on the ABC Saturday morning series Lidsville from 1971 to 1973. HELPFUL LINKS: VETERANS: https://www.va.gov/.../mental-health/suicide-prevention/ https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/ https://homebase.org/programs/get-care/ ADDICTION: https://lp.recoverycentersofamerica.com/.../continuum-of.../ https://www.refreshrecoverycenters.com/reclaim-your-life.../ https://drughelpline.org/ NEWS FLASH: You can now purchase Toking with the Dead full novel here https://a.co/d/7uypgZo https://www.barnesandnoble.com/.../toking.../1143414656... You can see all your past favorite episodes now streaming on https://redcoraluniverse.com/ OR Show your support by purchasing FB stars. Send stars to the stars fb.com/stars Toking with the Dead: https://www.stilltoking.com/ https://www.facebook.com/TokingwiththeDead?tn=-]C-R https://www.instagram.com/stilltokingwith/?hl=en https://twitter.com/thetoking?lang=en https://pinecast.com/feed/still-toking-with Check out Toking with the Dead Episode 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awhL5FyW_j4 Check out Toking with the Dead Episode 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaUai58ua6o Buy awesome Merchandise! https://www.stilltoking.com/toking-with-the-dead-train https://teespring.com/stores/still-toking-with Our booking agent: https://www.facebook.com/AmyMakepeace https://www.facebook.com/groups/3770117099673924 Sponsorship Opportunities: https://www.stilltoking.com/become-a-sponsor or email us at bartlett52108@gmail.com thetokingdead@gmail.com ————————————— Follow our guest ———————— Follow Still Toking With and their friends! https://smartpa.ge/5zv1 https://thedorkeningpodcastnetwork.com/ ————————————— Produced by Leo Pond and The Dorkening Podcast Network https://TheDorkening.com Facebook.com/TheDorkening Youtube.com/TheDorkening Twitter.com/TheDorkening MORE ABOUT THE GUEST: Over the next two years, Patrick went on to appear in guest-starring roles on numerous television series, including Ben Casey, Alcoa Premiere, Bonanza, My Favorite Martian, Gunsmoke, Mister Ed, and Rawhide and recurring roles on The Real McCoys and General Hospital. These roles would have him appear opposite headliners including Judy Garland, Burt Lancaster, and Sidney Poitier. When recounting how he began his acting career, Patrick explained "I owe my career to my sister. She was the one who got me started and gave me all the encouragement. She always wanted to be an actress and was on the casting call sheet one day. She was asked if there were any other children at home. She told them about me, and I got some small roles, then some bigger ones..." In 1964 while living in Geneseo, Illinois, just east of the Quad Cities, Patrick landed the role of child werewolf Eddie Munster, starring alongside Fred Gwynne as Herman Munster, Yvonne De Carlo as Lily Munster and Al Lewis as Grandpa, on the CBS television series The Munsters, a fantasy situation comedy loosely based on Universal's movie monsters.The role of Eddie was originally portrayed by child actor Happy Derman in the pilot episode before Patrick was ultimately selected out of hundreds of boys for the role. Find out more at https://still-toking-with.pinecast.co Send us your feedback online: https://pinecast.com/feedback/still-toking-with/0de04cc9-69ae-4e2a-9538-9dd049ba5e8d

Jeffrey and Richard take a bus to New Zealand but are denied access to the country. So, they walk back and talk about My Uncle is a Vampire (1992) starring Grandpa Munster himself, Al Lewis. Is this the weirdest film ever covered on this podcast? Listen and find out!Jeffrey's BlogDoomed MoviethonCinema SomnamulistDoomed Moviethon on YouTubeLegion Podcasts

PC_2024-010_The OTRNow Radio ProgramThe Shadow Of Fu Manchu. June 05, 1939. Program #13. Radio Attractions syndication. Sponsored by: Music fill for local commercial insert. The houseboat on the Thames. Hanley Stafford, Gale Gordon. 15 minutes, Audio Condition: very good to excellent audio, complete.10993. The Shadow Of Fu Manchu. June 07, 1939. Program #14. Radio Attractions syndication. Sponsored by: Music fill for local commercial insert. Plans for a new aerial torpedo have been stolen!. Hanley Stafford, Gale Gordon. 15 minutes, Audio Condition: very good to excellent audio, complete.Our Miss Brooks. September 19, 1948. CBS net. "The Conklins' Anniversary At Crystal Lake". Sustaining. It's the Conklin's anniversary, and time for a weekend at the cabin at Crystal Lake. Miss Brooks and Mr. Boynton have been invited to come along! A similar script was subsequently used on the program on August 21, 1949 or September 4, 1949 (see cat. #46051). Eve Arden, Jane Morgan, Noreen Gammill (as Mrs. Conklin), Richard Crenna, Gloria McMillan, Gale Gordon, Jeff Chandler, Larry Berns (producer), Wilbur Hatch (music), Bob Lemond (announcer), Al Lewis (writer, director), Dink Trout.    Tom Corbett, Space Cadet. March 04, 1952. ABC net, WJZ, New York aircheck. "The Asteroid Of Danger". Sponsored by: Kellogg's Pep, Kellogg's Raisin Bran. Manning and Dr. Dale disappear while prospecting in the asteroid belt. Al Markim, Drex Hines (director), Edward Bryce, Frank Thomas Jr., Jackson Beck (announcer), Jan Merlin, Margaret Garland, Gilbert Braun (writer), Jon Gart (organist). 1221. Tom Corbett, Space Cadet. March 06, 1952. ABC net, WJZ, New York aircheck. "The Asteroid Of Danger". Sponsored by: Kellogg's Pep, Kellogg's Raisin Bran. A scientist has kidnapped Dr. Dale and Manning and is hiding out on a small asteroid. Al Markim, Drex Hines (director), Edward Bryce, Frank Thomas Jr., Jackson Beck (announcer), Jan Merlin, Margaret Garland, Gilbert Braun (writer), Jon Gart (organist). The Jergens Journal. May 18, 1941. Blue Network. Sponsored by: Jergen's Lotion and Facial Powder. Winchell with hard war news and Broadway gossip. His unique style is featured, with "flash," the telegraph key, etc. Ben Grauer (announcer), Walter Winchell.The FBI In Peace and War. November 03, 1954. CBS net origination, AFRTS rebroadcast. "The Twenty-Five-Thousand-Dollar Bond". The wife of a government worker is being romanced and then blackmailed by a foreign agent. Martin Blaine, Don Briggs, Jackson Beck, Elspeth Eric, Les Damon, William Johnstone, Frederick L. Collins (creator), Betty Mandeville (producer, director). Sleep No More. December 05, 1956. NBC net. "Over The Hill" "The Man In The Black Hat". Sustaining. Part of the final public service announcement has been deleted. Nelson Olmsted, Ben Grauer (announcer), Michael Fessier (author of both stories), Kenneth MacGregor (director).

I was talking to one health plan sponsor, and she told me if she sees any charges for value-based care anything on any one of the contracts that get handed to her, she crosses them off so fast it's like her superpower. For a full transcript of this episode, click here. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe. What, you may wonder? Shouldn't employers and plan sponsors be all over value-based care–type things to do things preventatively because we all know that fee-for-service rewards, downstream consequences–type medical care, no money in upstream. Let's prevent those things from happening. Listen to the show with Tom Lee, MD (EP445); Scott Conard, MD (EP391); Brian Klepper, PhD (EP437). My goodness, we have done a raft of shows on this topic because it is such a thing. So, why wouldn't a plan sponsor be all over this value-based care opportunity? Now, I'm using the value-based care words and big old air quotes. Let's just keep that very much in mind for a couple of minutes here. I'm stressing right now that value-based care isn't a one-to-one overlap with care that is of value. So, let me ask you again, why wouldn't a plan sponsor be all over this air-quoted value-based care opportunity? Let me count the ways, and we'll start with this one. Katy Talento told me about this years ago. She said, it's not uncommon for dollars that a plan sponsor may pay to never make it to the entity that is actually providing the care to that plan sponsor's plan members. So, I'm a carrier and I say, I'm gonna charge you, plan sponsor, whatever as part of the PEPM (per employee per month) for value-based care or for a medical home, or pick something that sounds very appealing and value-like. Some of that money—not all of it, because the carrier's gonna keep some, you know, for administrative purposes—but whatever's left over could actually go to some clinical organization. Maybe it's the clinical organization that most of the plan's members are attributed to. Or maybe it's some clinical organization that the carrier is trying to make nicey nice with, which may or may not be the clinical organization that that plan sponsor's patients/members are actually going to. Like, the dollars go to some big, consolidated hospital when most of the plan's members are going to, say, indie PCPs in the community, as just one example. So, yeah, if I'm the plan sponsor in this mix, what am I paying for exactly and for how many of my members? I've seen the sharp type of plan sponsors whip up spreadsheets and do the math and report back that there ain't much value in that value-based care. It's a euphemism for, hey, here's an extra fee for something that sounds good, but … The end. Then I was talking to Marilyn Bartlett the other day and drilled down into some more angles about how this whole “hey, let's use the value-based care word to extract dollars from plan sponsors” goes down. Turns out, another modus operandi beyond the PEPM surcharge is for carriers to add “value-based fees” as a percentage increase or factor to the regular claims payments—something like, I don't know, 3.5% increase to claims. These fees are, in other words, hidden within billing codes. So, right, it's basically impossible to identify how much of this “value-based” piece of the action is actually costing. These fees are allowable, of course, because they're in the contract. The employer has agreed, whether they know it or not, to pay for value-based programs or alternative pay, even though the details are not at all, again, transparent. And that not at all transparent also includes stuff like, what if the health systems or clinical teams did not actually achieve the value-based program goals? What if they failed to deliver any value-based care at all for the value-based fees they have collected? How does anybody know if the prepaid fees were credited back to the plan sponsor, or if anything was actually accomplished there with those fees? Bottom line, fees are not being explicitly broken out or disclosed to the employers. Instead, they are getting buried within overall claims payments or coded in a way that obscures the value-based portion. So, yeah, charges for value-based care have become a solid plan to hide reimbursement dollars and make carrier administrative prices potentially look lower when selling to plan sponsors like self-insured employers. Justin Leader touches on this in episode 433 about the claims wire, by the way. Now, caveat, for sure, it's possible that patients can get services of value delivered because someone uses that extra money. And it's also possible that administrative costs go up and little if any value is accrued to patients, right? Like one or the other, some combination of both. It goes back to what Dr. Tom Lee talked about in episode 445. If there's an enlightened leader who gives a “shed,” then indeed, patients may win. But if not, if there's no enlightened leader in this mix, it's value based alright for carrier shareholders who take bad value all the way to the bank. Al Lewis quotes Paul Hinchey, MD, MBA, who is COO of Cleveland-based University Hospitals. And Dr. Hinchey wrote, “Value-based care has increasingly become a financial construct. What was once a philosophy centered on enhancing patient care has been reduced to a polarizing buzzword that exemplifies the lack of alignment between the financial and delivery elements of the healthcare system.” And then on the same topic, I saw William Bestermann, MD, he wrote, “The National Academy of Medicine mapped out a plan to value-based care 20 years ago in detail. We have never come close to value-based care because we have refused to follow the path. We could follow it, but we don't, and we never will as long as priorities are decided by businessmen representing stockholders. It is just that simple.” Okay, now. Let's reset. I'm gonna take a left turn, so fasten your seatbelts. Just because a bunch of for profit and not-for-profit, nothing for nothing, entities are jazz-handing their ways to wealth by co-opting terminology doesn't mean the intent of value-based care isn't still a worthy goal. And it also doesn't mean that some people aren't getting paid for and providing care that is of value and doing it well. There are, for sure, plenty of examples where an enlightened leader was able to operationalize and/or incentivize care that is of value. Occasionally, I also hear a story about a carrier doing interesting things to pay for care that is of value. Jodilyn Owen talked about one of these in episode 421. Justina Lehman also (EP414). We had Larry Bauer on the show (EP409) talking about three bright spots where frail elderly patients are getting really good care as opposed to the really bad care that you frequently hear about when you even say the words frail elderly patient. And all of these examples that he talked about were built on a capitated model or on a model that facilitated patients getting coordinated care and there being clinicians who were not worried about what code they were gonna put in the computer when they helped a patient's behavioral health or helped a patient figure out how they were gonna get transportation or help them access community services or whatnot. There are also employers direct contracting with health systems or PCPs and COEs (Centers of Excellence) and others, contracting directly with these entities to get the quality and safety and preventative attention that they are looking for. And there are health systems and PCPs and practices working really hard to figure out a business model that aligns with their own values. So, value-based care—the actual words, not the euphemism—value-based care can still be a worthy goal. And that, my friends, is what I'm talking about today with Elizabeth Mitchell, president and CEO of the Purchaser Business Group on Health (PBGH). PBGH members are really focused on innovating and implementing change. We talk about some of this innovation and implementation on the show today, and it is very inspiring. Elizabeth argues for for-real alternative payment models that are transparent to the employer plan sponsors. She wants prospective payments or bundled payments, and she wants them with warranties that are measurable. She wants members to get integrated whole-person care in a measurable way, which most health plans (ie, middlemen) either cannot or will not administer. Elizabeth says to achieve actual care that is of value, cooperation between employers, employees, and primary care providers is crucial (ie, direct contracts). She also says that this whole effort is really, really urgently needed given the affordability crisis affecting many Americans. There's been just one article after another lately about how many billions and billions of dollars are getting siphoned off the top into the pockets of the middlemen and their shareholders. These are dollars partially paid for by employees and plan members. We have 48% of Americans with commercial insurance delaying or forgoing care due to cost. If you're a self-insured employer and you're hearing this, don't be thinking it doesn't impact you because your employees are highly compensated. As Deborah Williams wrote the other day, she wrote, “Co-pays have gotten high enough that even higher-income patients can't afford them.” And she was referencing a study to that end. So, yeah … with that, here is your Summer Short with Elizabeth Mitchell. Also mentioned in this episode are Purchaser Business Group on Health; Tom X. Lee, MD; Scott Conard, MD; Brian Klepper, PhD; Katy Talento; Marilyn Bartlett; Justin Leader; Laurence Bauer, MSW, MEd; Al Lewis; Paul Hinchey, MD, MBA; William Bestermann, MD; Jodilyn Owen; Justina Lehman; and Deborah Williams.   You can learn more at PBGH and by connecting with Elizabeth on LinkedIn.   Elizabeth Mitchell, president and CEO of the Purchaser Business Group on Health (PBGH), supports the implementation of PBGH's mission of high-quality, affordable, and equitable healthcare. She leads PBGH in mobilizing healthcare purchasers, elevating the role and impact of primary care, and creating functional healthcare markets to support high-quality affordable care, achieving measurable impacts. Elizabeth leverages her extensive experience in working with healthcare purchasers, providers, policymakers, and payers to improve healthcare quality and cost. She previously served as senior vice president for healthcare and community health transformation at Blue Shield of California, during which time she designed Blue Shield's strategy for transforming practice, payment, and community health. Elizabeth also served as the president and CEO of the Network for Regional Healthcare Improvement (NRHI), a network of regional quality improvement and measurement organizations. She also served as CEO of Maine's business coalition on health, worked within an integrated delivery system, and was elected to the Maine State Legislature, serving as a state representative and chair of the Health and Human Services Committee. Elizabeth served as vice chairperson of the US Department of Health and Human Services Physician-Focused Payment Model Technical Advisory Committee, board and executive committee member of the National Quality Forum (NQF), member of the National Academy of Medicine's (NAM) “Vital Signs” Study Committee on core metrics and now on NAM's Commission on Investment Imperatives for a Healthy Nation, a Guiding Committee member for the Health Care Payment Learning & Action Network. She now serves as an appointed board member of California's Office of Healthcare Affordability. Elizabeth also serves as an advisor and board member for healthcare companies. Elizabeth holds a degree in religion from Reed College, studied social policy at the London School of Economics, and completed the International Health Leadership Program at Cambridge University. Elizabeth was an Atlantic Fellow through the Commonwealth Fund's Harkness Fellowship program.   10:36 What are members and providers actually asking for in terms of value-based care? 10:56 Why won't most health plans administer alternative payment models? 12:17 “We do not have value in the US healthcare system.” 12:57 Why you can't do effective primary care on a fee-for-service model. 13:30 Why have we fragmented care out? 14:39 “No one makes money in a fee-for-service system if people are healthy.” 17:27 “If we think it is not at a crisis point, we are kidding ourselves.”   You can learn more at PBGH and by connecting with Elizabeth on LinkedIn.   @lizzymitch2 of @PBGHealth discusses #valuebasedcare on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation #vbc   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Will Shrank (Encore! EP413), Dr Amy Scanlan (Encore! EP402), Ashleigh Gunter, Dr Spencer Dorn, Dr Tom Lee, Paul Holmes (Encore! EP397), Ann Kempski, Marshall Allen (tribute), Andreas Mang, Abby Burns and Stacey Richter

We talk about the time we interviewed Al Lewis. When is it too soon to tell someone you love them in a relationship? Stan crosses a line with Junior and it takes him a while to calm down. Anthony Melchiorre from Absolute Law comes in to answer your legal questions. Name That Movie. News. And more...

It's our third live episode of the summer! Tonight, Jeremy Kohlenbrener once again joins Jason to record a live podcast during a fun special event at camp. We hosted the local Rhinelander 15U Hodags baseball team for a friendly game against the boys in Green (actually white tonight). During the broadcast we were joined by a lot of people for play by play, color commentary, a recap of an amazing day at camp, and much, much more. Guests include: Melanie Rein, Cooper Provus (play by play), Avi Kirshenbaum, Morrison Gold, Chase Kaplan, Eli Flaum, Jackson Flaum, Oliver Schwartz, Ethan Schwartz, Hank Siegel, Hetty Simenacz, Grace Smart, Grace Brownridge, and Chad the Dad. Enjoy!

In this episode of Your History Your Story, we will be speaking with Butch Patrick, famous for his iconic role as Eddie Munster on the classic 1960's television series “The Munsters”. After completing two seasons and one movie as Eddie Munster, Butch appeared in numerous other television shows and films. Butch will share some stories about his time on the set of “The Munsters” and will talk about what it was like to work with some of his fellow costars such as, Fred Gwynn, Al Lewis and Yvonne DeCarlo. Butch will also tell of some major struggles that he overcame as an adult and how today he remains an enthusiastic and prominent personality in the fan community, attending conventions and celebrating the legacy of his most famous role. Music: "With Loved Ones" Jay Man Photo(s): Courtesy of Butch Patrick Support Your History Your Story: Please consider becoming a Patron or making a one time donation via PayPal. - THANK YOU!!! YHYS Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠CLICK HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YHYS PayPal: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠CLICK HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YHYS: Social Links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠CLICK HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YHYS: Join our mailing list: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠CLICK HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #yhys #yourhistoryyourstory #history #storytelling #podcast #njpodcast #youhaveastorytoo #jamesgardner To find out info about all things regarding Butch Patrick and "The Munsters", CLICK HERE

In Episode 442 of 'Relentless Health Value,' host Stacey Richter shares an intriguing outtake from a previous episode featuring Andreas Mang, senior managing director at Blackstone, discussing the critical issue of cost management in oncology side effect treatment. The conversation delves into the inefficiencies and patient harms caused by inadequate side effect management, particularly dehydration due to chemotherapy, and the resulting financial burdens on employers, taxpayers, and patients.  Stacey explores the importance of a value-based mindset in drug purchasing, integrating oncology care, and the potential financial and health benefits of better side effect management. She highlights various expert opinions and studies supporting these points, encouraging listeners to reconsider their approach to healthcare cost structures and patient care protocols. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe.  01:12 Andreas Mang on oncology medication side effect management. 03:12 Mark Lewis, MD's Tweet. 03:39 Celena Latham's response. 04:22 How integrative oncology can save money and what it looks like. 04:47 EP157 with Ethan Basch, MD. 06:20 Why PBMs saving money doesn't necessarily mean savings for employers and payers. 07:36 EP435 with Dan Mendelson. 08:20 EP372 with Cora Opsahl. 08:40 EP331 with Al Lewis. 09:50 Stacey's second rumination. 10:19 Why having a value mindset when purchasing is a thing. 10:42 Stacey's third rumination. 12:03 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 13:07 Why FFS does not pay or pay adequately for side effect management. 14:31 Stacey's final rumination. 17:08 Summarizing Stacey's four ruminations on this topic.

Former USU PxP Al Lewis retires.

Starting Lineup: Mavs breaks TWolves in game 5 Former USU PxP Al Lewis retires What You May Missed

Hour 1 Starting Lineup: Mavs breaks TWolves in game 5 Former USU PxP Al Lewis retires What You May Missed Hour 2 Bleacher Report NHL writer Adam Herman Good, Bad & Ugly Whole World News Hour 3 BYU head coach Kevin Young REPLAY PFL fighter Clay Collard Final thoughts

Eric Frandsen and Jason Walker visit with hall of fame broadcaster Al Lewis to celebrate his 52 years on KVNU and retirement.

Episode Notes My guests include Pastor Dianne Marshall Young co-founder of the Healing Center. She along with her late husband Bishop William Young were given a vision from God years ago to make our community whole in spirit, soul and body. They were also leaders in the conversation surrounding mental health. She joins me to discuss her latest campaign regarding our youth. Al Lewis is a long time community activist who is as passionate as he is opinionated. These days, he is working with inmates and dealing with trauma through an ‘Inward Journey'. He explains. Finally, not everyone is college bound, but that should not limit anyone's success. Tangua Houston is the Executive Director of Universal Achievers Foundation in Frayser. Her auto body repair program is changing the lives of young people for the better and she tells us how. This and more Monday both on air and online on WYXR 91.7 FM, the WYXR app, Tunein, Facebook Live, YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. It's time to talk!

Eric Frandsen and Jason Walker talk about the official commitment from quarterback CJ Tiller, leaving Boise State to join the Utah State Aggies. Updates on other former Aggies and players Utah State was reportedly targeting. Legendary Voice of the Aggies Al Lewis announces his retirement. Update on an exciting weekend of NBA playoffs. Updates on softball, baseball and boys volleyball in high school playoffs.

Join Eldra Jackson III on this inspiring episode of "The Inside Circle," where he welcomes Al Lewis, a pivotal figure who witnessed the evolution of civil rights organizing firsthand in Memphis. Al shares his unique experiences growing up during the tumultuous civil rights era and discusses his journey to the Underground Railroad Training Odyssey. In a heartfelt conversation, Al expresses his enduring hope and belief in the potential for growth and healing within communities. This episode delves into how we can tap into our collective humanity to mend the deep-seated historical pain and trauma that lingers in places steeped in such rich history. Listen in as Al explains the importance of this pilot project in Memphis, emphasizing the vast opportunities for positive change and the strong desire among the community members to heal and move forward together. https://inwardjourney.org    

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. I've been in a couple of meetings lately. In one case, a healthcare company came up with a strategy and deployed it; and the strategy didn't go as planned. The other one, it did go as planned—it worked great. Of course, I'm coming in on the back end like a Monday morning quarterback here; but the plan that failed, I have to say, I wasn't surprised. Had they asked me ahead of time, I would have told them to save their money because the plan was never gonna work, even though the strategy looked like kind of a straight line from here to there. Nor was I shocked by the success of the other plan, even though this one that triumphed had what looked like five extra steps and was slightly counterintuitive if you looked at it cold, without understanding the way the healthcare industry actually works. Here's my point: It might feel like the healthcare industry is chaos monkey central and impossible to predict actions and reactions—and, for sure, there's always unknowns and intersecting variables—but it's not a complete black box. The trick is, as you know and I know, you gotta understand what other stakeholders are up to. You gotta get a bead on what they're doing and what their incentives are because then you can better predict actions and potentially reactions. So, let me state the obvious (that's why listeners tune in to this show as I just said, and it's what we aim to shine a light on here at Relentless Health Value): the pushes and the pulls and the forces. What's going on outside of the organizations or the silos that we work within day-to-day. Because if you're looking to sell to, partner with, not be obstructed by [insert some stakeholder here], then it's very vital to be keyed in on what they're doing or what their customers are doing or what their customers' vendors are doing. This show should feel like it gives you a measure of control (or at least that's my hope) or a method to find the measure of control. And I hope you succeed. That's why I continue to put out these shows. The RHV tribe members want the same thing I want—to fix the healthcare industry for patients and for members—so, thanks for being here and for making actionable the insights that you might find here. I have been so looking forward to doing a show with Ben Schwartz, MD, MBA, orthopedic surgeon and prolific writer of deeply thoughtful and insightful posts on LinkedIn. In this healthcare podcast, we are talking about bundled payments. And today's your lucky day if you think you know a lot about bundles, because most people who listen to this show at least know enough to be dangerous. So, that's our starting point, which is why I asked Dr. Schwartz to talk to me about what most people find surprising about bundles and bundled payments. There are four surprises that we go through in the show today. Listen to the show or read the transcript to find out exactly what they are. So, no spoiler alert alert. But relative to these surprises, we get into the four types of bundles that may or may not be available. And those four types of bundles are: 1. CMS bundles such as the BPCI (Bundled Payments for Care Improvement) and the CJR (Comprehensive Care for Joint Replacement) bundles, and we talk about the current state of said BPCI bundles, which are being sunsetted probably because so many efficient clinical teams are being penalized for getting too efficient. They become victims of their own success the way the program is currently designed, wherein the goalposts keep shifting. 2. Commercial bundles—ie, a bundle that is offered by a commercial carrier such as a BUCA (ie, Blue Cross Blue Shield/UnitedHealthcare/Cigna/Aetna/Anthem) carrier 3. Direct bundle—a bundle that is paid for directly by a plan sponsor such as a self-insured employer 4. Condition- or diagnosis-specific bundle. These types of bundles do not spiral around a surgical intervention at their core, which most of the current bundles do. This may describe CMS's recently announced “Making Care Primary” initiative, but we'll have to see about that. Speaking about the #3 kind of bundle, the employer-direct bundles, especially for musculoskeletal (MSK), let me share a post by Moby Parsons, MD, that I thought captured the entrepreneurial spirit of some of these orthopedic surgeons who are seeking employers to direct contract with and cut out the middleman, etc (which, by the way, is the main topic of an entire show upcoming with Elizabeth Mitchell from the Purchaser Business Group on Health). But Dr. Parsons wrote: “When our bundle business has sufficient growth to ensure the absolute sustainability of our practice against declining reimbursements … in a fee-for-service system, I am getting this tattoo. Don't tell my wife. [And the tattoo is ‘Free Yourself.']” My guest today, aforementioned, is Dr. Ben Schwartz. He's an orthopedic surgeon in the Boston area still in full-time clinical practice. He's grown very interested in healthcare innovation, healthcare technology, and does some advising and investing. Dr. Schwartz also writes a great Substack called Dem Dry Bones. After you listen to this show, please go back and listen to the one with Steve Schutzer, MD (EP294) talking about how to create a Center of Excellence and also the one with Rob Andrews (EP415) about how and why if you are a plan sponsor you might want to consider direct contracting with quantifiably amazing provider groups. Also, if you are an ortho or involved in MSK care, I might suggest following Karen Simonton on LinkedIn, as well as Moby Parsons, MD, and, for sure, of course, my guest today, Dr. Ben Schwartz. Also mentioned in this episode are Moby Parsons, MD; Elizabeth Mitchell; Steve Schutzer, MD; Robert Andrews; Karen Simonton; Peter Hayes; Al Lewis; and Cora Opsahl.   You can follow Dr. Schwartz on LinkedIn and read his blog on Substack.   Benjamin J. Schwartz, MD, MBA, is a fellowship-trained orthopedic surgeon with over 15 years of experience. He has served numerous healthcare leadership roles on both a local and national level with a focus on developing and implementing evidence-based, high-quality musculoskeletal care delivery pathways. Dr. Schwartz is vice chair of the Practice Management Committee for the American Association of Hip and Knee Surgeons and helps advance knowledge of musculoskeletal conditions as a member of the Hip and Knee Content Committee for the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons and editorial board member/elite reviewer for The Journal of Arthroplasty. Dr. Schwartz has extensive experience in value-based care, having personally achieved over $400,000 in savings during his first year in the CMS BPCI-A program. He has received awards for clinical care and professionalism and was named a Castle Connolly Top Doctor in 2022 and 2023. In addition to his clinical work, Dr. Schwartz maintains a strong presence in healthcare technology and innovation as advisor and investor to early-stage digital health companies. He is frequently sought after by clinicians, founders, and venture capitalists for his ability to bridge the gap between real-world medicine and start-ups/entrepreneurship. Dr. Schwartz's passion is thoughtful implementation of technology and innovation to improve healthcare quality, accessibility, costs, and outcomes.   06:07 Where are we in the development of the bundled payments space? 08:09 What are the four types of bundled payments? 09:52 How can bundled payments create perverse incentives? 11:04 What are the positives in bundled payments, and how can they help push us toward value-based care? 13:02 What is surprising about bundled payments? 18:50 EP415 with Rob Andrews. 27:03 How do Centers of Excellence connect back to bundled payments? 29:00 EP346 with Peter Hayes. 30:29 EP294 with Steve Schutzer, MD. 33:38 EP331 with Al Lewis. 33:43 EP372 and EP373 with Cora Opsahl. 37:13 What does Dr. Schwartz think the future is for bundled payments?   You can follow Dr. Schwartz on LinkedIn and read his blog on Substack.   @BenSchwartz_MD discusses #bundledpayments on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Justin Leader, Dr Scott Conard (Encore! EP391), Jerry Durham (Encore! EP297), Kate Wolin, Dr Kenny Cole, Barbara Wachsman, Luke Slindee, Julie Selesnick, Rik Renard, AJ Loiacono (Encore! EP379)  

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. On the show today, I am going to use the term TPA (third-party administrator) and ASO (administrative services only) vendor kind of interchangeably here. But these are the entities that a plan sponsor—for example, a self-insured employer is a plan sponsor—but these plan sponsors will use to administer their plan. And one of the things that TPAs and ASOs administer is this so-called weekly claims wire. Every week, self-funded employers get a weekly claims run charge so they can pay expenses related to their plan in weekly increments. The claims run usually comes with a register or an invoice. This invoice might be just kind of a total (“Hey, plan. Pay this amount.”). Or there might be a breakdown like, “Here's your medical claims, and here's your pharmacy claims.” Maybe there's another level down from that of detail if the plan or their advisor is sophisticated enough and/or concerned enough about the fiduciary risk to dig in hard about what the charges are actually for. I was talking about this topic earlier with Dana Erdfarb, who happens to be executive director of HR at a large financial services organization. Dana I'm definitely gonna credit for inspiring this conversation that I'm having today with Justin Leader. Dana was the first one to really bring to my attention just the level of hidden fees that are buried (many times) in these claims wires … because when I say buried in the claims wire, I mean not charged for via an administrative invoice. These hidden fees are also not called out in the ASO finance exhibit in the contract, by the way. So, yeah … hidden. I don't know … if you have to hide your charges, in my mind that's a pretty big tell that your charges are worth hiding. Now the one thing I will point out is that just because the charges are worth hiding doesn't necessarily mean that the services those charges are for are unwarranted. Some of these services are actually pretty worthwhile to do. There's just a really big difference from a plan sponsor knowingly contracting at a known rate with a third party to do something versus paying for a service knowingly or unknowingly via fees hidden in a claims wire wherein the amount paid is not in the control of the one paying the bill. Anyway, I was talking about all of this earlier, as I mentioned, with Dana Erdfarb. That conversation was exactly the framework that I needed to snag Justin Leader, my guest today, to come on the pod and really dig into the detail level of what's going on with this claims wire. So, in this healthcare podcast, we're gonna talk about the five fees that tend to be tucked in to many claims wires. We also talk about one bonus—not sure if it's a fee—one bonus way that plan sponsors give money to vendors in ways the plan sponsor might be unaware of. Here are the five hidden fees that we talk about at length in the show today, and then I'll cover the bonus: 1. Shared Savings Fees. This is where a member of a plan goes out of network, and the TPA/ASO goes and negotiates a discount from the out-of-network provider and then shares the savings. Get it? Shared savings? This category also might include BlueCard Access fees, which we talk about in the show. But there also could be overpayment recoupment fees lumped in here. This is where the TPA messes up, overpays, and then charges the plan sponsor a percentage of the money they just got back when they corrected their own mistake. I'm just gonna pause here while everyone contemplates how we've all gone so wrong in life to not have figured out a way to charge others when we correct our own mistakes. Here's a link to a great LinkedIn post by Chris Deacon and a deep dive article on this topic. 2. Prior Auth Fees. Lots to unpack with this one, which Justin does in the pod. 3. Prepayment Integrity Fees. This is evaluation of the claim before it's being paid. Listen to the show for how this may (or may not) differ from what the TPA/ASO is supposed to be doing (ie, it's the TPA that's supposed to be [yeah, right] adjudicating and paying claims). 4. Pay and Chase Fees. This is where a bill was paid wrong, and it's not immediately the TPA/ASO's mistake. This is where something like a provider double billed or overcharged or something, and the TPA/ASO later figures this out and then chases the pay to get the money back. 5. TPA Claims Review Fees. Sort of self-explanatory but also not. Again, please listen to the show for more. When I'd been talking about all of this with Dana Erdfarb, as I mentioned earlier, just about this whole thing, she said something that Justin Leader echoes today: Many of these fees are structured as a percentage of savings. This is challenging for a plan sponsor because the savings is vendor reported and not validated. But it also means that if the savings increase annually with trend (as they, generally speaking, do), then the fees will increase with that trend as well—and that is something to keep in mind. Okay … so, here's the bonus thing that didn't get a number in the show today, but it is certainly a way that plan sponsors pay money to vendors. And this is medical claims spread pricing. This is buried in the claims wire and inside the dollar amounts the plan sponsor thinks they are paying a provider for a service. It turns out that it can turn out that the amount the plan sponsor is paying is more than the check that's being written to the provider for the service being delivered. Or the amount the plan sponsor is paying the provider for a service is more than for simply that service that has been rendered, right? The plan sponsor is paying the provider for other stuff as well, as is alleged in the DOL v BCBS of Minnesota lawsuit, which Justin brings up in the show today. It drives me nuts, honestly, when there are people who tout their transparency. But then it turns out if the equation is A plus B equals C, only like one of the numbers is transparent. Sorry, functionally, that doesn't count as transparency except in marketing copy. This is all to say—and here's Dana Erdfarb's actionable advice which sums up points Justin also made—when employers review their medical plan vendor contracts, they should make sure to identify, review, and document all fees being paid to their vendors and incorporate this knowledge into their renewal/RFP (request for proposal) discussions and negotiations. Jeff Hogan echoed this advice on LinkedIn the other day when he commented on this show: “Such a great opportunity for employers to have their administrative services agreements and other documents examined to discover these schemes. It's not hard to do. Also, a great advertisement for the value of having retrospective audits performed. It is eye opening to see not only the amount of arbitrage but often how payers don't even pay according to their contracts. Justin Leader is the perfect guest.” As mentioned a myriad of times already, my guest today is Justin Leader, who is president and CEO of BenefitsDNA. Justin works with plan sponsors, both commercial plans as well as Taft-Hartley plans, across the United States. Before we kick into the show today, I just want to thank By the 49ers for the really nice review on iTunes. By the 49ers calls Relentless Health Value a “leading voice in healthcare” and says he or she always leaves “with intrigue, a new idea or a new approach to problem solving.” Really appreciate that. That is certainly one of our goals around here. So, thank you so much. Oh, also, please subscribe to the weekly email that goes out. You can do that by going over to our Web site and signing up. There are a lot of advantages to doing so, which I've talked about before, so I'm not gonna do so again; but it is a great way to make sure that if you're a member of the Relentless Health Value Tribe, you are aware of the current goings-on. Also mentioned in this episode are Dana Erdfarb, Chris Deacon, Jeffrey Hogan, BenefitsDNA, Rik Renard, Cora Opsahl, Al Lewis, Julie Selesnick, Mark Davenport, Karen Handorf, Dawn Cornelis, AJ Loiacono, and Mike Miele. You can learn more at benefitsdna.com or wefixyourhealthcare.com. You can also follow Justin on LinkedIn.     Justin Leader began his career in the pharmaceutical and financial services industries. By 2011, Justin entered into the group benefits field consulting for many notable Fortune 500 clients. In 2014, he established BenefitsDNA, an objective, independent health and welfare benefit plan consulting firm providing compliance oversight, actuarial services, cost mitigation, and traditional broker services to Group Health Plan Sponsors. As a Certified Health Rosetta Chartered Advisor (eighth advisor to join), he's acknowledged for contributing to healthcare solutions in the United States both in policy as well as practice and is an avid supporter of Patient Rights Advocate. Throughout his career, Justin has been instrumental in introducing successful healthcare benefit solutions to the market, which have been pivotal in solving critical issues and saving millions for employers and their employees. As a mission-driven leader, he and his team are passionate about fixing healthcare one client, one member, and one partnership at a time. Having trademarked We Fix Your Healthcare™, their mission is one that his team takes seriously. Justin, a native of Bedford, Pennsylvania, holds a pre-medicine degree and a master's degree in exercise science from California University of Pennsylvania. His dedication extends to servant leadership, volunteering in the local community including serving on the PA State Council of SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) since 2016. Justin is a public speaker and owner of Leaders Never Quit, where he dedicates his time to inspiring others with a message of hope, humor, and resilience.   07:55 How is the claims wire typically explained to a plan sponsor? 11:18 What is the whole point of self-funding? 11:27 Why is it so vital to understand what you're paying for? 12:38 What are the five “buried” items that wind up in these claims wires? 13:03 What is a shared savings fee? 17:10 “Rates are important, but so are your rights.” 21:01 What's going on with prior auth fees? 23:35 What is prepayment integrity? 28:16 What is pay and chase? 31:54 What is a TPA claim review? 35:47 Is there medical claim spread pricing?   You can learn more at benefitsdna.com or wefixyourhealthcare.com. You can also follow Justin on LinkedIn.   @JustinDLeader discusses #plansponsor #payments on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Scott Conard (Encore! EP391), Jerry Durham (Encore! EP297), Kate Wolin, Dr Kenny Cole, Barbara Wachsman, Luke Slindee, Julie Selesnick, Rik Renard, AJ Loiacono (Encore! EP379), Nina Lathia  

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. Here's a great musing that I read on LinkedIn: How will alternative primary care models fare when growth mode gets balanced with profitability and VC-supported burn rate is transformed to Big Retail bottom-line expectations? Mission v. margin. I'm gonna add to this: How will alternative primary care models, or even just doing good primary care, fare when it encounters the current system rife with perverse incentives of all kinds, including, yeah, for sure, Big Retail bottom-line expectations but also Big Health System and Big Payer bottom-line expectations and current business models? This show from last year was wildly popular—maybe one of our most popular shows—and relisten to it in the current context of what's going on right now in the primary care and MSO (Managed Services Only) space. Coming up, I'm gonna probably do a whole show on this if I can get my act together; but this encore is really relevant right now. One piece of podcast business before we get into the episode: Please sign up for our weekly email if you haven't already, especially if you consider yourself part of the Relentless Health Tribe. I am mentioning this not only because it's a great way to keep track of our shows because you can do an email search to remember where you heard something, since a good deal of the show intros are in the emails, but also, there's a plan afoot to hold some Zoom meetings to talk about different topics etc—and you won't be notified of such goings-on unless you're subscribed. You can unsubscribe whenever you want, by the way; and I am way too busy to send more than one email a week or spam if that was a concern. On Relentless Health Value, I don't often get into our guests' personal histories. There are a bunch of reasons for this, which, if you buy me beer, we can talk podcast philosophy and I will tell you all about my personal, very arguable opinion here. Nevertheless, in this healthcare podcast, we are going rogue; and I am talking with Scott Conard, MD, who shares his personal story. You may ask why I decided to go this route for this particular episode, and I will tell you point-blank that Dr. Conard's experience, his narrative, is like the perfect analogue (Is analogue the right word [allegory, composite example]?). His story just sums up in a nutshell what happens when a PCP (primary care provider) does the right thing, manages to improve patient care for real, and then at some point gets sucked into the intrigue and gambits and maneuvering that is, sadly, the business of healthcare in the United States today. Before we kick in, I just want to highlight a statement that Scott Conard makes toward the end of the show. He says: So, this isn't about punishing or blaming aspects of care that are being overrewarded today. It's really about what's the path forward for corporations, for middle-class Americans, and for primary care doctors who don't choose to be part of a big system. We have to figure out how to solve this problem. I hope people don't hear this and think that there are horrible people at some not-for-profit hospital systems, for example. There are some great people at not-for-profit health systems, but they have some really screwed-up incentives. A few notable notes from Dr. Scott Conard's journey and words of wisdom that I will just highlight up front here: He says that as a PCP, you actually can produce high-value care in a fee-for-service model … if you think differently and you change practice patterns. I have heard this from others as well, including most recently David Muhlestein, PhD, JD, who says this in an episode (EP393). As Dr. Scott Conard says later in this episode, healthcare organizations must embrace the art of medical leadership. So, I guess that's a spoiler alert there. Another point that Dr. Conard makes very crisply toward the end of the show is that doctors can kinda get pushed and pulled around in this mix. You have docs just trying to provide good care, and they work for one entity that gets bought and now it's some other entity … and what's happening upstairs and the prices being charged or somebody somewhere deciding not to make prices transparent, or deciding to sue low-income patients for unpaid medical bills or what charity care to offer or not to offer. These are not doctors in clinics making these calls, and we need to be careful here not to homogenize what some of these health systems are choosing to do like some kind of democratic vote was taken by everybody who works there. Health systems, hospitals, are many-celled complex entities. And a third takeaway—there are a bunch of takeaways in this show, but a third one I'll highlight here from Dr. Conard's story—is the old fiduciary responsibility code word being used by health system administrators as a euphemism for strategies that might need a euphemistic code word because the strategy has questionable community benefit. In the case study that we talk about today, the local health system managed to raise healthcare spend in North Texas by $100 million year over year. Employers and employees in North Texas communities wound up paying $100 million more year over year in healthcare one particular year. This was prices going up. It also was removing a big systemic initiative to keep heads out of hospital beds. Reiterating here, we are not talking about doctors here particularly because, of course, the vast majority of doctors are trying to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. But suddenly in North Texas, physicians did not have the population health efforts and the team really standing behind them helping to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. That sucks for everybody trying to do the right thing, and, as has been said, burnout is moral injury in a cheap Halloween costume. Moral injury happens when you have good people, clinicians, doctors, and others who realize that what is going on, at best, is not helping the patient. Also mentioned in this episode are Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA; David Muhlestein, PhD, JD; Brian Klepper, PhD; Al Lewis; Robert Pearl, MD; Karen Root, MBA, CCXP; and Wendell Potter.   You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at scott.conard@converginghealth.com.   Scott Conard, MD, DABFP, FAAFM, is board certified in family and integrative medicine and has been seeing patients for more than 35 years. He was an associate clinical professor at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Dallas for 21 years. He has been the principal investigator in more than 60 clinical trials, written many articles, and published five books on health, well-being, leadership, and empowerment. Starting as a solo practitioner, he grew his medical practice to more than 510 clinicians over the next 20 years. In its final form, the practice was a value-based integrated delivery network that reduced the cost of care dramatically through prevention and proactive engagement. When this was acquired by a hospital system, he became the chief medical officer for a brokerage/consulting firm and an innovation lab for effective health risk–reducing interventions. Today, he is co-founder of Converging Health, LLC, a technology-empowered consulting and services company working with at-risk entities like self-insured corporations, medical groups and accountable care organizations taking financial risk, and insurance captives to improve well-being, reduce costs, and improve the members' experience. Through Dr. Conard's work with a variety of organizations and companies, he understands that every organization has a unique culture and needs. It is his ability to find opportunities and customize solutions that delivers success through improved health and lower costs for his clients.   06:54 What triggered Scott's career journey? 07:31 What caused Scott to rethink what is good primary care? 08:11 Why did Scott realize that he is actually a risk-management expert as a primary care doctor rather than someone who treats symptoms? 09:25 EP335 with Brian Klepper, PhD. 09:53 How did Scott's practice change after this realization? 10:04 What is a “Whole-Person Risk Score”? 11:08 Scott's book, The Seven Numbers (That Will Save Your Life). 13:05 “You start to move from a transactional model to a relationship model.” 15:31 Did Scott have any risk-based contracts? 16:08 Why is it so important to look at total cost of care and not just primary care cost? 21:08 Scott's book, The Art of Medical Leadership. 22:13 EP381 with Karen Root. 30:43 Why did Scott move over to help corporations? 33:10 EP364 with David Muhlestein, PhD, JD. 33:51 “Everybody thought they were honoring their fiduciary responsibility, and the incentives are completely misaligned.” 34:31 EP384 with Wendell Potter. 34:43 “It's the system that's broken; it's not bad people.”   You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at scott.conard@converginghealth.com.   @ScottConardMD discusses #primarycare #marginvsmission on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Jerry Durham, Kate Wolin, Dr Kenny Cole, Barbara Wachsman, Luke Slindee, Julie Selesnick, Rik Renard, AJ Loiacono (Encore! EP379), Nina Lathia, Marshall Allen

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. First of all, I just want to start out this pod and really thank everyone listening and for showing up for a show like this one. You do it and you are here because you care about patients/members. It's just so easy to feel like we'll never be able to do enough, and that's a rough, rough feeling. Please take a moment to truly hear how grateful I am for you being here and for doing all that you do and that you try to do. I saw on the interwebs the other day a Marcus Aurelius quote. What he said was, “Be satisfied with even the smallest progress.” And I think this is really important to remember because nobody working in the healthcare industry, especially today, is ever probably gonna get anything close to a perfect solution. So instead, just aim for progress—even the smallest amount—and feel good about that, please. This show is an important one for anybody either in the business of healthcare delivery or buying healthcare delivery services. It's an exploration of what works and what doesn't work and how what works can easily become what doesn't work in the face of the real world. This peril of cutting clinical “waste” perilousness all starts with the whole “Hey, let's make some money, so we gotta scale and be efficient. We gotta do our thing at as low as possible a cost and maybe grow as fast as possible. We gotta keep our investors happy or pay off the debt we got saddled with or pay that giant management fee we're being charged or compensate the C-suite at the level they've grown accustomed to.” So again, the “let's be efficient and get everything repeatable” has entered the building. The first point my guest today, Kate Wolin, ScD, makes about all of this—and this is exactly the same point that Rik Renard made in episode 427—efficient to what endgame? Now, it turns out, surveys show, only a small, small percentage of healthcare delivery solution providers are measuring outcomes of pretty much any kind. So, how do we even know if cutting so-called waste is actually waste at all? I mean, in the absence of any actual measures—here's a hypothetical for you—someone could look around: “Hey, I see these nurses. They're all just sitting around chatting with patients and, I don't know, talking about throw rugs? What is this? An episode of HGTV? Who cares if a patient with diabetic neuropathy has throw rugs in their hallway? Let's tell these nurses chop-chop, get them on the computer using AI to be efficient, right? Let's get rid of that clinical waste.” I just made a point in the most sarcastic way possible, but the bottom line is this: It's actually really efficient to not engage patients in these ways, right? Patients, they talk slow, they ask questions that seem irrelevant, and they're time-consuming. It's very efficient to not build relationships or foster trust or, I don't know, assess fall risks … but whatever is going on is also going to fail in that model—from a patient outcome standpoint at least. Here's a quote from Sergei Polevikov, with some light edits. He wrote on LinkedIn: Primary care is not scalable in the same way as Scrub Daddy or Bombas Socks. That's something not taught in MBA and CFA programs. Someone should have told Walgreens, CVS, Amazon, and Walmart. They also probably should tell a whole bunch of point solutions and payers. Also, some health system execs or pharmacy leaders might also want to get that memo. What I really liked about the conversation with Kate Wolin in this healthcare podcast is that she retains optimism in the face of all of this. She offers advice for how to navigate the balance between mission and margin in a way that's better for patients and also sustainable financially. She talks about three points: 1. Founders and investors being in alignment and the essential nature of that 2. The importance of having clinical leadership and a team dynamic that enables innovation but in a clinically sound way 3. How you gotta measure what matters and do it in a way that inspires a mission-driven culture If we're talking about relevant shows to listen to next after you listen to this one, please do not forget episode 331. This is where Al Lewis teaches us how to evaluate wellness vendors and health solutions, but it also teaches us how to be a good wellness vendor or health solution. Also, do come back and listen to the encore with Jerry Durham next week about front desks and the total care experience. Lots of really bad avoidable things happen if the front desk isn't considered—and it isn't often considered. For sure, also listen to the show with Kenny Cole, MD (EP431); that's a must-listen. Then again, the show with Rik Renard (EP427) came up several times in this episode. The show with Jodilyn Owen (EP421) also gets brought up; that's a great cautionary tale there to keep in mind for mission-driven entrepreneurs and investors. And then, I also recommend J. Michael Connors, MD. He writes a lot of stuff in a newsletter along these lines. Last, last, last … Please go to our Web site and subscribe to the weekly email. I am planning on doing a few invite-only sessions for email subscribers. Plus, the weekly email is a really very convenient way to get the episode transcripts and stuff. And if you don't get it, you're making your life less efficient. So, go fix that. Kate Wolin, my guest today, trained as a behavioral epidemiologist and has done research in chronic disease prevention and management. She launched and led a digital health start-up and sold it to Anthem. She's been in the digital health start-up space largely at the intersection of science and product strategy ever since. Also mentioned in this episode are Rik Renard; Sergei Polevikov; Walgreens; Amazon; Walmart; Al Lewis; Jerry Durham; Kenny Cole, MD; Jodilyn Owen; J. Michael Connors, MD; Carly Eckert, MD; and Mike Pykosz. You can learn more by following Dr. Wolin on LinkedIn.   Kate Wolin, ScD, is a behavioral epidemiologist who left academic medicine to launch and lead a digital health start-up, which she bootstrapped to profitability before selling to Anthem. She has since been a C-suite leader, investor, and advisor to digital health start-ups and enterprise organizations on bridging clinical and behavioral science with product strategy and execution. She has been named as a Forbes Healthcare Innovator That You Should Know and a Notable Woman in STEM by Crains. Dr. Wolin is a Fellow of the Society of Behavioral Medicine and the American College of Sports Medicine and teaches entrepreneurship at Kellogg.   06:24 Irrespective of money, what works in clinical care and population healthcare? 09:51 EP361 with Carly Eckert, MD, PhD(c), MPH. 10:26 Why is creating a gathering place and sense of community important in clinical care? 12:46 “Sometimes, we make this about the clinical provider. It always makes me think about the rest of the people in an ecosystem that create trust.” 13:49 EP297 with Jerry Durham. 14:11 Where can things go wrong when we start to think about the margin in respect to the clinical care that works? 16:47 EP427 with Rik Renard. 19:35 “We're actually very unspecific in what we're trying to achieve a lot of times in these digital health programs.” 24:00 “Are you aligned as a founder, as a business with your investors on the pace of growth and what is feasible … ?” 25:30 Why is Dr. Wolin optimistic about achieving growth and still providing value? 28:17 Why is it important to ask why something is being done? 30:39 EP421 with Jodilyn Owen. 34:35 How are people motivated, and how can you use that to reduce turnover? 35:21 Why measuring what matters and communicating that is important.   You can learn more by following Dr. Wolin on LinkedIn.   Kate Wolin, ScD, discusses #clinicalwaste on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Kenny Cole, Barbara Wachsman, Luke Slindee, Julie Selesnick, Rik Renard, AJ Loiacono (Encore! EP379), Nina Lathia, Marshall Allen, Stacey Richter (INBW39), Peter Hayes  

Butch Patrick Live on Game Changers with Vicki Abelson What a fun chat with Butch Patrick, aka Eddie Munster, who's warm, easy and so comfortable in his skin that it's impossible to not feel like an old friend coming home. Butch makes everyone in his path feel seen, heard, and important. What a gift. We talked about current events… living in Arkansas, his Munster Mobiles, getting out and meeting his fans, his girlfriend, how they met, and how they keep it going. And we went back… how a 7 yr old got his start in film, had a career in TV, and at the age of 10, a starring role on one of the most iconic and endearing television shows of all time. Thank goodness Bill Mumy took a pass. There are no accidents. This was Butch's path. We talked Fred Gwynne, Al Lewis, Yvonne De Carlo, The Cowsills, and The Monkees, and his amazing episode and time shooting with them at the height of all of their fame. There were crazy days and trouble. Pot, booze, and drugs, and then, 13 years ago, getting sober. Butch's ease and commitment to his sobriety, and helping others. It's a beautiful thing. The upside of the pandemic is that it led the way to interview celebrity gems who live far away. I hope one day to meet Butch in the reals and feel his great energy sans a screen between us, but I'm grateful as hell for these opportunities to spend time getting to know this once boy who gave this girl so much childhood joy, and as a man, moves through the world with so much kindness and grace. Butch Patrick Live on Game Changers with Vicki Abelson Wednesday, March 20, 5 PM PT, 8 PM ET Streamed Live on my Facebook Reply here: https://bit.ly/43rAjh4

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. We have been spending a bunch of time here on Relentless Health Value talking about PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) lately and pharmacy benefits, but we are moving into a new topic area. It sort of kicked off three weeks ago with the pod with Rik Renard (EP427) on the importance of care flows if you are a digital health vendor trying to get consistent outcomes. But then I actually went back to the PBM/pharmacy benefits topic to talk with Luke Slindee, PharmD (EP429) and Julie Selesnick (EP428) because, you know, the J&J lawsuit. But now we're back on the “let's talk about digital health and point solutions” bus. I wanted to talk today about the trend to sell to employers and advice for digital health solutions who want to sell to employers, but there's a little bit of advice here for employers themselves. At a minimum, this conversation affords a little bit of transparency to employers about what's going on on the other side of the table. So, as I just said, in this healthcare podcast we talk about selling to employers. Why sell to employers is probably a first question. Well, one reason Barb offers is because that's where the money is. It's like that Willie Sutton quote. Someone asked him why he robbed banks, and he replied, “Because that's where the money is.” I mean, hospitals know this. Have you seen their commercial rates and their multiples over Medicare? Payers know this, too. Payers who use their ability to raise commercial rates as leverage to get lower MA (Medicare Advantage) rates for themselves … they know this. So, yeah. Why wouldn't a point solution entrepreneur take a page out of that business model? It's saying the quiet part out loud, but … yeah, I guess it's good to know when you're the numero uno healthcare industry sugar daddy (or sugar mommy, as the case may be). Every employer listening right now has already opened up their phone and started an email to me. Barb gets into four pieces of advice for entrepreneurs looking to sell to employers: 1. There has to be a market that has a need for what you are selling, and there won't be a market with a need unless the problem you're solving for is big enough—and right now, I am recapping things that Barb says on the show—because when she talks about whether the problem is big enough, she means as per the employer and maybe because the fallout from that big problem accrues to the employer in a way that the employer fully appreciates. As I say in the pod that follows, the ground is littered with entrepreneurs, often really smart people who oftentimes I truly admire. These are individuals who found a problem for patients (or sometimes even clinicians) and solved for it and then discovered that no one will pay them for whatever they've done, because we can't forget that, in the healthcare industry, one person's waste is somebody else's profit. There is show after show here at Relentless Health Value that showcases the sacred honeypots where these perverse incentives lie, so if you are an entrepreneur, please follow the dollar and see where it leads before getting too far. That would be my advice. I'd recommend the show with Rob Andrews (EP415) and the one with Jodilyn Owen (EP421) as a great place to start. One comment about the whole “it's gotta be a need that employers appreciate” point that Barb makes which caught my ear, she rhetorically asks, “Should HR purchasers be buying solutions that improve health and well-being?” And the short answer is no. Barb says none of that should be the primary driver. The primary driver, Barb mentions, should be about optimization of human capital to drive business outcomes. She says every decision a business makes should be about maximizing business outcomes. Now, I could take this a bunch of different ways; and viscerally it has, again, kind of a “quiet part out loud” vibe. But in certain ways, it also means buying decisions should be bigger than just cutting costs. First of all, no one is arguing here that cutting wasteful spending isn't always a good thing; but neither are cost-containment strategies that undermine employee health to the extent that they can't complete their work role or their job. Listen to the show with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD (EP426) for more on this cost containment versus value-based purchasing, specifically in the pharmacy benefit space, but same rules apply pretty much everywhere. 2. Be truly differentiated in terms of what you're trying to sell. Barb gives a bunch of examples of “secret sauces” she thinks are kind of compelling right now. 3. Navigate the internal politics of the employer. And this is kind of Selling 101, but find a champion and help them navigate their own organization. We talk at length about how long the sell process can take, especially in some of these jumbo employers. 4. Manage your investors as closely as you manage your possible clients. And this is an interesting point that also comes up in the conversation with Kate Wolin, ScD, that's coming up in a few weeks. Also in this conversation, we have a sidebar about PMPM (per member per month) and performance guarantees and just some nuances about how to get paid. Oh, and one last point here: If you are an entrepreneur who is thinking about selling to brokers, employee benefit consultants, or practice leads, do listen to the show with AJ Loiacono (EP379), which I encored a couple of weeks ago. My guest today, Barbara Wachsman, has had experience in every single element of the healthcare ecosystem. She has worked in public health. She's worked for an HMO. She's worked for a hospital system. She's run benefit consulting practices and also spent the last dozen or so years at Disney running strategy and benefits. Today she is a limited partner in several private equity funds at Frazier Healthcare Partners. Oh, and hey, you might want to subscribe to our weekly email, which includes this introduction transcribed as well as links to the full episode transcribed. We also sometimes send out invitations to Zoom meetups and other ways to get involved or support us in our quest to get Americans better healthcare. So, go to relentlesshealthvalue.com and get yourself on that list Also mentioned in this episode are Rik Renard; Luke Slindee, PharmD; Julie Selesnick; Rob Andrews; Jodilyn Owen; Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD; Kate Wolin; AJ Loiacono; Elizabeth Mitchell; David Claud, MD, PhD; Al Lewis; Kenny Cole, MD; and Cora Opsahl.   You can learn more at Frazier Healthcare Partners. You can also follow Barbara on LinkedIn.   Barbara E. Wachsman, MPH, is the former director of strategy and engagement for enterprise benefits for the Walt Disney Company. In this position, she led the strategic initiatives and designed the programs that addressed Disney's long-term healthcare and goals and objectives, headed operations of large on-site clinics and full-risk physician partnerships, and was the creator of the Strategy Lab, the home for innovation in healthcare delivery. She is a speaker on the national stage regarding direct contracting and the value of primary care. Barbara currently serves as a senior advisor to an $8 billion growth-buyout private equity firm specializing in healthcare and as head of employer strategy for a virtual primary care company with a unique medical practice model. She sits on the Boards of the Duke-Margolis Center for Health Policy Institute and the QueensCare Foundation, serving the low-income and underserved population of Los Angeles. She remains a senior advisor and founding member of the Employer Healthcare Innovation Roundtable (EHIR) and is a faculty member of the EHIR Academy. Barbara serves on the Executive Committee of the American Board of Medical Specialties and on the Advisory Boards of several healthcare start-ups as well as the corporate board of a large metabolic health company. She is also an advisor to the Purchaser Business Group on Health and to the Silicon Valley Employers Forum. Barbara received her Master of Public Health and Master of City Planning/Architecture degrees from the University of California, Berkeley, and is a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Scripps College, where she received her bachelor of arts degree.   06:55 Why have people cottoned on to selling to employers, and is it a good direction to focus? 07:28 What are the three ways healthcare gets paid for in America? 07:46 Where is the profit in the healthcare system? 08:32 What does an entrepreneur really need to understand in order to sell to employers? 13:05 “It really is about producing a productive employee.” 17:49 Why it's not enough to understand the market but you must also differentiate. 21:01 What's the biggest misunderstanding entrepreneurs have about per member per month? 24:10 What companies are standing out right now as differentiators? 28:02 Why is it important to also show that you are improving quality? 28:51 EP331 with Al Lewis. 28:55 EP427 with Rik Renard. 29:33 EP372 with Cora Opsahl. 30:07 Why is it important to find a strong champion who will advocate for you as a partner? 35:05 Why is it important to manage your investors and set appropriate expectations around the timeline of a sale? 36:21 What's the lesson to be learned behind Livongo?   You can learn more at Frazier Healthcare Partners. You can also follow Barbara on LinkedIn.   Barbara Wachsman discusses #digitalhealthvendors selling to #employers on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Luke Slindee, Julie Selesnick, Rik Renard, AJ Loiacono (Encore! EP379), Nina Lathia, Marshall Allen, Stacey Richter (INBW39), Peter Hayes, Joey Dizenhouse, Benjamin Jolley

On this VERY special episode of the podcast we are lucky enough to sit down in person with the namesake of the Twilight League Championship Trophy, Steve Ehrlich. Steve has been coming to camp every year in some capacity since 1959, helped start the Nate Wasserman Camp Fund, and has been the commissioner of Fantasy Camp since its origin. Steve is now the heartbeat of our alumni network. We talk about how camp changed and evolved over the decades, what Nate Wasserman was like, stories about camp legends Al Lewis, Bob Bender, Koz, and Jim "Buzz" Wyeth, where a lot of our traditions, sayings, games, and songs come from, the first ever Kawaga competition, the Meat Man and much more. After the 90 minutes were over we both shared how much we didn't even touch on…but this is a great start!

For a full transcript of this episode, click here. Here's a quote from Ann M. Richardson, MBA. She wrote it on LinkedIn, and I love it: Quiet the noise that doesn't add value. Surround yourself with intelligent and respectful people who can deliver endless opportunities. Celebrate brilliance and new beginnings. Together, we've got this. Thanks for this beautifully stated call to action (I wish I would have written it myself) because it is also precisely the goal of Relentless Health Value and my hope for the Relentless Health Value Tribe—those of you who have connected with each other by way of this podcast vis-à-vis LinkedIn, or maybe you've met each other at an online or live event. For sure, subscribe to the weekly email to get notified of such goings-on. Now, this aspirational vision doesn't mean putting the onus on just any given individual to fix the systemic failings that get talked about on the podcast, but we can start somewhere. We can sit with ourselves; we can ask ourselves some big questions. We can decide the legacies we want to leave and what we want our life's work to add up to. That is what this show should, I hope, help you accomplish. And, yeah … together, we've got this. In this healthcare podcast, I am speaking with Peter Hayes; and we talk about five realities of 2024 for hospital chains, integrated delivery networks, health systems. Now, to make one thing very clear, as I have said many times on many Relentless Health Value shows: Not all hospital chains or hospitals are the same. There are large, consolidated, extremely rich, extremely politically and economically powerful organizations who are called health systems. And then there are rural or urban institutions that are barely scraping by and serving huge vulnerable patient populations. And despite the many aforementioned names for hospital chains and their associated outpatient facilities and owned physician groups and urgent care centers, all these names for these big care delivery entities are flabbergastingly meaningless because they do not separate the consolidated rich ones from the very desperately not rich ones. Today on the show, we're talking about the first kind of health systems: the big rich consolidated ones which are taking over every geography where there's money to be made. These are the ones where you read about their bad behavior in the New York Times or hear about them in YouTube videos like this one. Peter Hayes talks about the five things that these behemoth entities may really need to start thinking hard about, even in the face of their fierce and often-unrelenting market power and the political hold that they have over many local communities and all the regulatory capture that goes along with that. So, here's Peter's list in a nutshell—the five things to get real about: 1. Health systems need to get real about the CAA (Consolidated Appropriations Act) and its implications that plan sponsors only pay “fair and reasonable” prices for medical services. Now, before I dig in on this, jargon alert: When we say plan sponsors, that means entities such as self-insured employers—sponsors of health plans, if you will (the purchasers, the ones who are actually paying the bills). Peter explains the quick version of what the Consolidated Appropriations Act is in the show that follows, so do listen. But for more info on this really, really meaningful bit of legislation that is the law as of 2021, go back and listen to the episodes with Chris Deacon (EP342 and EP408) or check out the myriad of LinkedIn posts from Jeff Hogan. Also, others like Darren Fogarty, Justin Leader, Jamie Greenleaf, and others have some great words of wisdom that you will be able to find that really explain what the point is of the CAA, the Consolidated Appropriations Act, and its sprawling implications. 2. To survive on reduced commercial reimbursements, health systems need to get real about becoming ruthlessly aggressive in driving administrative and technology efficiencies. 3. They need to get real about pivoting from fee-for-service reimbursement to episode-based care based on taking real downside risks for good clinical outcomes. They need to pivot from a mindset of maximizing patient revenue to maximizing patient health. They need to move from a sick care reimbursement model to a healthcare reimbursement model based on health. 4. They need to get real about being completely transparent and accountable in reporting how they are using the value of their tax-exempt status. Similarly, they need to account for and report how they're using the estimated $55 billion in net margins that they're realizing off the 340B drug program. 5. They need to get real about quality and patient safety. We still have about 46% of our hospitals that have a C or lower Leapfrog rating. And, by the way, the chance of having a fatality on an avoidable error is 90% higher at a C or lower-rated Leapfrog entity versus a Leapfrog entity that has an A or a B. Now, some of you—and by some of you, I mean practically everybody listening—are thinking of reasons why any one of these “get real about” things is arguable or how one of the above is not holding up in some market. I think Peter would tell you the same thing that I would: You're not wrong. But trying to predict a zeitgeist or the next pet rock never works well because it's always a confluence of right time/right place where the whole is way more than the sum of its parts. Think about Malcolm Gladwell's The Tipping Point. It's about how small changes can have enormous effects if the context is right. So, now contemplate these five things that Peter brings up. All these forces are pushing in the same direction. Put it all into a stew where 48% of Americans have delayed or forgone care due to cost. Listen to the show with Wayne Jenkins, MD (EP358) for more on that. Or, you have the article John Tozzi just wrote in Bloomberg. Here's a quote: “In one California community, teachers have to pay an extra $10,000 a year to upgrade to insurance that covers the local hospitals. Teachers who can't afford it … give birth outside the county.” Meanwhile, insurers are making record profits, along with hospital CEOs and C-suites. At the same time, you know who I think is the third-biggest group with medical debt in this country? Yeah, it's people who work in hospitals—nurses, others. There's this frothing lack of trust for hospitals and what goes on there: 30% of physicians do not trust the leadership of their health system. And no wonder. There are examples of healthcare executives sitting up there in their palatial offices acting more like mobsters than the nuns they took over the hospital from. So, to orient your context, you are here. Peter Hayes is the newly retired former president and CEO at the Healthcare Purchaser Alliance of Maine. He is a national presence in healthcare strategy, innovation, and a keynote speaker. For more on the wild-ass problems with hospital pricing, check out this list of shows. But, spoiler alert, some of these are hair-raising. Encore! EP249: The War on Financial Toxicity in North Carolina as a Case Study Everybody Should Be Keeping Their Eye On, With Dale Folwell, North Carolina State Treasurer EP395: Consolidated Hospital Systems and Cunning Anticompetitive Contracts, With Brennan Bilberry EP390: What Legislators Need to Know About Hospital Prices, With Gloria Sachdev, PharmD, and Chris Skisak, PhD EP389: The Clapback When Hospitals Cannot Constrain Their Own Prices, With Mike Thompson EP346: How Did Health Systems Get Addicted to the Inflated Prices They Charge Employers and Some Patients? 2021 Update, With Peter Hayes, President and CEO of the Healthcare Purchaser Alliance of Maine EP394: Spoiler Alert: It Is Counterintuitive Which Hospitals Offer the Most Charity Care, With Vikas Saini, MD, and Judith Garber, MPP Also mentioned in this episode are Ann M. Richardson, MBA; Chris Deacon; Jeffrey Hogan; Darren Fogarty; Justin Leader; Jamie Greenleaf, AIF, CBFA, C(k)P; Wayne Jenkins, MD; John Tozzi; NASHP (National Academy for State Health Policy); Gloria Sachdev, PharmD; Chris Skisak, PhD; Leon Wisniewski; Cora Opsahl; Rik Renard; John Rodis, MD; Rob Andrews; Al Lewis; Eric Bricker, MD; Vikas Saini, MD; Judith Garber, MPP; Lown Institute; RAND Corporation; Dale Folwell; Brennan Bilberry; and Mike Thompson. You can learn more by following Peter on LinkedIn.   Peter Hayes recently retired as the president and CEO of the Healthcare Purchaser Alliance of Maine and formerly a principal of Healthcare Solutions and director of associate health and wellness at Hannaford Supermarkets. He has been recognized as a thought leader in innovative, strategic benefit design for the past 25+ years. He has received numerous national awards in recognition of his commitment to working collaboratively with healthcare providers and vendors in delivering health benefits that are focused on value (high-quality efficient care). He has been successful in this arena by focusing on innovative solutions for patient advocacy, chronic disease management, and health promotion programs. Peter has also been involved in healthcare reform leadership roles on both the national and regional levels with organizations like Center for Health Innovation, Care Focused Purchasing, and Leapfrog. He's also co-founder of the Maine Health Management Coalition and has been appointed by two different Maine Governors to serve on Health Care Reform Commissions to recommend public policies to improve the access and affordability of healthcare for Maine citizens.   08:04 Why do hospitals need to get real about the implications of the Consolidated Appropriations Act? 10:09 What is considered fair pricing for hospitals? 13:00 EP390 with Gloria Sachdev, PharmD, and Chris Skisak, PhD. 15:59 The medical transparency tool, Billy. 16:34 How does lowering prices become more challenging with consolidated hospital systems? 18:07 What is one of the solutions available to combatting this now? 19:31 Why do hospital systems need to get real about administrative and technology efficiencies? 22:27 EP373 with Cora Opsahl. 26:51 Why do hospitals need to get real about pivoting from fee-for-service reimbursement to episode-based care? 30:16 EP415 with Rob Andrews. 30:53 Why do hospitals need to get real about the 340B program and their tax-exempt status? 35:38 EP394 with Vikas Saini, MD, and Judith Garber, MPP. 38:19 What are the ethical and moral issues that are coming to a head with healthcare costs? 39:03 Why do hospitals need to reexamine their care quality and patient safety? 40:05 “We just need to make sure that the health industry is as accountable as some of our other industries.” 42:53 Why does Peter think it's going to take regulation to move the dial?   You can learn more by following Peter on LinkedIn.   @pefhayes discusses #hospitalsystems and what their executives need to do on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #pharma #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Joey Dizenhouse, Benjamin Jolley, Emily Kagan Trenchard (Encore! EP392), Cora Opsahl (Encore! EP372), Jodilyn Owen, Ge Bai, Andreas Mang, Karen Root (Encore! EP381), Mark Cuban and Ferrin Williams, Dan Mendelson (Encore! EP385)

Clive Anderson and Ellie Simmonds are joined by Helen George, Frances Barber, Kevin McCloud and Dom Joly for an eclectic mix of conversation, music and comedy. With music from Al Lewis and Laville.

My guest is this archived episode, originally taped in 1994, starred as “Grandpa” in the TV classic “The Munsters”. We discuss his career, his fond memories of Fred Gwynne, the importance of humor and laughter, and much more.

Eric Frandsen and Jason Walker preview Utah State vs Northwest Nazarene on Saturday in the Dee Glen Smith Spectrum. Post practice interview with USU men's basketball coach Danny Sprinkle. Al Lewis interview with Utah State men's basketball player Ian Martinez. Busy night of high school basketball.  Notable games on the Mountain West basketball schedule this weekend.

October 8, 2023 sermon from Providence Reformed Church Las Vegas by our guest speaker, Al Lewis. Pastor Al came to speak for our men's retreat. He is a former pastor to many in our church and has trained pastors all over the world to interpret Scripture faithfully.

Get in! I'll explain on the way.  Used Cars was one in an endless loop of early '80s movies watching over us as we plopped ourselves down in front of the cathode-ray tube babysitter. And we flew in an expert for this episode. Jesus Mike is your man if you're in the market for a new beater. He's one suave....shut your mouth! This movie was a right of passage on The Movie Channel in 1981. TMC was our first VCR. Play it again Sam! 

Thanks, shurx, for this review on iTunes entitled “Prepare to Learn.” Shurx wrote: “[RHV] provides key insight from experts that you won't find anywhere else. It paints the picture of how our healthcare is tangled, and who benefits because of it. Whether it's drug pricing, PBM shenanigans, hospital billing, or market trends that are challenging the status quo, this podcast is worth your time. I've shared many of the episodes with my pharmacy colleagues who have replied, ‘I didn't know that's how it worked.' Now they do thanks to Stacey and her team.” I wanted to kick off this particular show with this review because today we are again digging into the business of hospital care in this country. That's actually how Sanat Dixit, MD, MBA, FACS, put it on LinkedIn recently. He said some of the hospitals these days aren't in the healthcare business; they're in the hospital care business. And when I say some hospitals, I mean some people in decision-making roles at some hospitals. There was an opinion piece in the New York Times the other day by Eric Reinhart, and here's my highlight from his essay. He writes, “But the burnout rhetoric misses the larger issue in this case: What's burning out health care workers is less the grueling conditions we practice under, and more our dwindling faith in the systems for which we work.” Relentless Health Value is here so that our Relentless Tribe has the information that you need to influence what goes on in some of the boardrooms where some of these decisions are being made. With that, let's move on. You know why my guest, Brennan Bilberry, got into his current line of work battling hospital chain anticompetitive practices? He got into it because this behavior, which is normalized in healthcare, would never be tolerated in any other sector of the economy. No one would get away with it because these anticompetitive practices are, hey, anticompetitive. They spell the death of functioning markets. We kick off our conversation, Brennan and I, going through the typical hospital system consolidation playbook and how anticompetitive practices are kinda part of the typical gig here. It's quite clever, by the way, for hospital system executives to think this way. I mean, it's illicit and, some would say, unethical but clever if your main metric is revenue maximization. Anticompetitive contract terms are, after all, a flywheel. You consolidate to get enough market power to effectively force everyone to sign your anticompetitive contracts. And then step two: After that, you break out your anticompetitive contract terms spatula and you scrape out any remaining competition from your area. Which leads you to step three: Rub your hands together and raise prices and donate to politicians so legislation becomes even less likely. And then step four: Continue to raise your prices. Don't you love it when a plan comes together? In this healthcare podcast with Brennan Bilberry, we talk about four contract terms that any self-respecting anticompetitive hospital contract should include and how each of them restricts competition unfairly and causes higher prices for communities, taxpayers, patients, employers … basically everybody, including people who work at the health system, who wind up needing medical care. In a nutshell, here's the four anticompetitive contract terms that we dig into in this episode: All-or-nothing contracting, wherein a hospital system says if you want us in your network, you must include every single facility that we have in your network and at the monopoly-level prices we demand, even in areas that might be competitive. There is a reason why a hospital system might be all hachi machi to buy a rando not super profitable hospital in a rural area. The payer must include that hospital in their network then because of network adequacy or whatever. And then from then on, all of their care settings are now in network—even the lower-quality ones—and all of them at the highest prices. And there's no price negotiation that's possible after that. Anti-steering and anti-tiering clauses: This means that a payer/ASO (administrative services organization)/TPA (third-party administrator)/plan sponsor cannot steer members to lower-cost or higher-quality hospitals, nor can it offer benefit designs that have tiers (ie, lower co-pays if a member goes to specified high-value hospitals). So, any chance of using consumerism or navigation as a way to get members to better places is just eviscerated by this little move. Pricing gag clauses: It's when contract terms prohibit an ASO/TPA from telling its plan sponsor customers or members what the price of services are before (or sometimes even after) the service is rendered, claiming it's important to not let employers or patients know these costs because revealing actual prices will [checks notes] cause hospital prices to go up. I'm speechlessly mystified by this logic, but OK … I only have a bachelor's in economics. Contract terms that restrict other providers in the market: So, a dominant hospital uses admitting privileges or referrals or other leverage to effectively control other providers in the market, including providers who are ostensibly independent. So, while the market may look dynamic, it is really not. Some links to interesting articles and posts and other episodes related to this topic: Definitely listen to the shows with Mike Thompson (EP389) and also the one with Chris Skisak and Gloria Sachdev (EP390). We talk about market dynamics and hospital legislation in these two shows, which are, frankly, the best ways to get rid of hospital systems' ability to hold their communities and other local providers hostage with some of this strong arming. Here's a link to an article I was thinking about while recording this show about Daran Gaus's hypothesis for how mergers will impact hospital prices. And here's a link to an article about how commercial prices for outpatient visits were 26% higher for patients receiving care at a health system than those visiting non-system physicians and hospitals. Another episode I mentioned when Brennan and I discussed the consequences of some of these anticompetitive contract terms is the one with Cora Opsahl (EP373). I also reference the episode with Dale Folwell, treasurer in North Carolina (EP249). One last link is to the conversation I had with Dr. Scott Conard (EP391), where the local hospital bought a local ACO (accountable care organization) physician organization and the community paid an additional $100 million to the hospital the following year. My guest in this healthcare podcast as aforementioned is Brennan Bilberry, who is a founding partner over at Fairmark Partners, which is a law firm litigating some of these antitrust lawsuits against some of these hospital chains. You can learn more at fairmarklaw.com.  Brennan Bilberry is a founding partner of Fairmark Partners, LLP, a law firm focused on fair competition issues, especially in the healthcare industry. Fairmark has filed numerous antitrust cases against dominant hospital systems, seeking to tackle anticompetitive practices that lead to higher prices for businesses, consumers, and unions. Prior to founding Fairmark, Brennan worked as a policy consultant and political operative whose work included overseeing environmental public policy campaigns in numerous countries, providing international political intelligence for US investors, advising political campaigns around the world, and designing consumer and legal advertising. Brennan also worked on numerous US political campaigns, including serving as communications director for Terry McAuliffe's 2013 successful campaign for Virginia governor, serving as deputy executive director of the 2012 pro-Obama Super PAC Priorities USA, and developing research and policy communications for the House Democrats. Brennan is a native of Montana and South Dakota and has lived in Washington, DC, for the past 15 years.   06:16 What happens after a hospital consolidates? 07:23 What does an anticompetitive system look like when a hospital consolidates? 10:13 Tricia Schildhouse on LinkedIn. 10:35 What are some anticompetitive “tricks” that hospitals employ? 12:37 The Sutter case in northern California. 14:50 What can you do if you're forced to engage in an all-or-nothing contract with a hospital system? 18:31 The Atrium case in North Carolina. 19:36 EP373 with Cora Opsahl. 21:33 What are price gag clauses? 23:08 How are legacy gag clauses designed to prevent scrutiny in litigation? 24:04 EP249 with Dale Folwell. 26:08 How do hospital restrictions on other providers create an anticompetitive environment? 27:23 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 29:48 EP389 with Mike Thompson or EP390 with Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak.   You can learn more at fairmarklaw.com.   @brbilberry discusses #hospital #anticompetitive practices on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #hospitals #hospitalsystems #anticompetitivepractices Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Vikas Saini and Judith Garber, David Muhlestein, Nikhil Krishnan (Encore! EP355), Emily Kagan Trenchard, Dr Scott Conard, Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki  

You would think that hospitals with the most money would offer the most charity care—trickle down and all of that. If my health system is big and I have lots of money and profitable commercial patients, I can stuff more dollar bills into the charitable donation balance sheet bucket, right? Except, in general, it's a fairly solid no on that. Let's talk about some of my takeaways from the conversation that I had with Vikas Saini, MD, and Judith Garber from the Lown Institute. During the conversation, there's also mention of a powerhouse of a New York Times article. So, let's circle up on but a few of the more interesting (according to me) reasons why some rich hospitals fail to offer the level of charity care that you might think they could or should: #1: Chasing commercial contracts because they are very profitable means building in areas where there are frankly not a whole lot of poor people. You see hospital chains doing this all of the time and saying at the 2023 JPM (J.P. Morgan) conference that they intend to do more of it, opening up in a fancy suburb with no affordable housing. When this happens, there is just less opportunity to offer charity care. The need for financial aid in that ZIP code is just less. #2: The Ambulatory Surgical Center (ASC) movement, which is weird to say because, in other respects, I'm a big fan. There are a lot of services and surgeries moving out of the hospital into ambulatory surgical centers or just the outpatient setting, and this is going on for a bunch of reasons, including Medicare and employers being very on board with this to save facility fees. But here's a consequence: Surgeons and other docs are now not in the hospital. So, indigent patient shows up in the emergency room and needs an emergency surgery or some intervention. But wait … those physicians and their teams are no longer in the hospital. And now the hospital doesn't have the “capability or the capacity” to serve that patient. I heard from a surgeon the other day, and when he's on call at his hospital, he's getting patients shipped to him on the regular from hospitals in other states. Now, about this “oh, so sorry … we can't possibly help you so we're gonna stick you in an ambulance and take you to another state” plan of action. I called up emergency room expert Al Lewis. He told me that if this “ship 'em out” is being done routinely as a pattern by hospitals who have an ER, you could call it evidence of an EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) violation on several levels. You can't have an emergency room and then routinely not be able to handle emergencies, especially when the emergencies you can't handle always seem to be of a certain kind and for a certain kind of patient. Speaking of violations, one more that reduces the need and level of charity care is canoodling with ambulance companies to take the poor people to some other hospital and the rich people to your hospital, which was allegedly transpiring in New Jersey, based on a recent lawsuit. #3: [play some foreboding music here] This last one is the big kahuna underlying reason why some very rich hospitals may not offer the level of charity care which you'd think they would. This was superbly summed up by Tricia Schildhouse on LinkedIn the other day. She knew a physician leader who would go around saying, “Non-profit and for-profit is a tax position, not a philosophy.” Bottom line, this whole thing boils down to what has been normalized as OK behavior at some of these rich hospitals. You have people in decision-making roles taking full advantage of their so-called tax position to jack up their revenues—revenues which they have no interest in frittering away on charitable causes. Why would they do that when they can use the money to, I don't know, stand up a venture fund or make Wall Street investments? Don Berwick's latest article in JAMA is entitled “The Existential Threat of Greed in US Health Care.” And, yeah … exactly. Back to that New York Times article that we talk about in this healthcare podcast, here's what it says about a hospital in Washington State. It says: “The executives, led by [the hospital's CFO] at the time, devised … a program called Rev-Up. “Rev-Up provided [the hospital's] employees with a detailed playbook for wringing money out of patients—even those who were supposed to receive free care because of their low incomes.” All of this being said, there are hospitals out there who are, in fact, living up to their social contract and serving their communities well with very constrained resources. You also have hospitals just in general working within some really whack payment models that we have in this country, which easily could be a root cause precipitating this suboptimal-ness. Dr. Saini and Judith Garber mention three direct solves for hospital charity shortfalls and also the larger context of the issue. So, there's, of course, better reporting and better auditing, which is pretty nonexistent in any kind of standardized way right now. I also really liked one of the solutions that Dr. Saini mentions on the show: Maybe instead of all the hospitals doing their own charity care thing, they all should pool their money regionally and then put a community board in charge of distributing it. That way, if there is a hospital in an area where the charity care is really needed, even if the rich hospital nearby doesn't have a facility there, they can help fund this care that their larger community really needs—including, by the way, public health needs, which is currently a big underfunded problem. As mentioned earlier, I am speaking with Vikas Saini, MD, and Judith Garber. Dr. Saini is president of the Lown Institute. Judith Garber is a senior policy analyst there. They've studied hospitals from a number of dimensions, not just charity care.   You can learn more at lowninstitute.org and lownhospitalsindex.org.    Vikas Saini, MD, is president of the Lown Institute. He is a clinical cardiologist trained by Dr. Bernard Lown at Harvard, where he has taught and done research. Dr. Saini leads the Institute's signature project, the Lown Institute Hospitals Index, the first ranking to measure hospital social responsibility. The Index, first launched in July 2020, evaluates hospitals on equity, value, and outcomes and includes never-before-used metrics such as avoiding overuse, pay equity, and racial inclusivity. In his role at the Lown Institute since 2012, Dr. Saini led the development of the Right Care series of papers published by The Lancet in 2017, convened six national conferences featuring world-renowned leaders in healthcare, and guided other Lown Institute projects such as the “Shkreli Awards.” Dr. Saini also serves as co-chair of the Right Care Alliance, a grassroots network of clinicians, patient activists, and community leaders organizing to put patients, not profits, at the heart of healthcare. Prior to the Lown Institute, Dr. Saini was in private practice in cardiology for over 15 years on Cape Cod, where he also founded a primary care physician network participating in global payment contracts. He also co-founded Aspect Medical Systems, the pioneer in noninvasive consciousness monitoring in the operating room with the BIS device. Dr. Saini is an expert on the optimal medical management of cardiologic conditions, medical overuse, hospital performance and evaluation, and health equity. He has spoken and presented research at professional meetings around the world and has been quoted in numerous print media, on radio, and on television.  Judith Garber is a senior policy analyst at the Lown Institute. She joined the Lown team in 2016, after receiving her Master of Public Policy degree from the Heller School of Social Policy. Her research interests include hospital community benefit policy, overuse and value-based care, and racial health disparities. She has authored several white papers, journal articles, op-eds, and other publications on these topics. Judith previously worked at the Aspen Institute Financial Security Program, the Midas Collaborative, and Pearson Education. She has a bachelor's degree in American studies and political science from Rutgers University.   06:50 Why does America need socially responsible hospitals? 08:23 What standards are hospitals beholden to with their charitable spending? 08:47 “It's the honor system, essentially.”—Dr. Saini 11:38 What is fair share spending? 13:43 Which hospitals are paying their fair share? 15:05 Why do hospitals that are financially more strapped tend to give back to their communities more? 17:25 Why is it hard for hospitals with the most privately insured patients to do the most for their community? 18:56 “These outcomes … are the outcomes of the [current system].”—Dr. Saini 21:23 “A key problem here is [that] systems have gotten so big.”—Dr. Saini 22:30 What's the solution to fixing the problem with hospital charity care? 23:52 EP374 with Dave Chase. 29:21 What would be the level of acceptance with changing the system as it stands with hospitals?   You can learn more at lowninstitute.org and lownhospitalsindex.org.   @DrVikasSaini and @JudiTheGarber of @lowninstitute discuss #hospitalcharitycare on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #hospitals Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! David Muhlestein, Nikhil Krishnan (Encore! EP355), Emily Kagan Trenchard, Dr Scott Conard, Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari  

Hey, thanks so much to kwebs14 for your super nice review on iTunes the other day. Kwebs wrote: [I have] learned so much, shared so many episodes with colleagues, clients … and gained so much value from regularly listening to [Relentless Health Value]. … Thank you … for providing the platform for so many that believe that we can consistently do better in healthcare. Thanks much for writing this. I think our Relentless Tribe is a unique group, and every day of every week I admire your willingness to hear some things that might be pretty hard to hear because they may hit pretty close to home. Dr. Benjamin Schwartz was talking about the podcast on LinkedIn the other day, and he said he doesn't always agree with guests or the discussion but he always learns something and each episode stimulates and challenges his thoughts and opinions. Yes … to all of this. This is our goal in a nutshell: to help those who want to do better in healthcare to have the insight, the information, the other side of the story, the differing opinion, whatever you need to conceive of the action that you want to take. So, thank you so much to everybody who listens. You are the ones who are going to make a difference, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing what you do every day for patients and communities. Alright, so in this healthcare podcast, we are going to answer an FAQ—a listener question I have gotten a lot lately in various forms. Let me common denominator the inquiry: What does it mean to be clinically integrated, and how does a provider organization/practice/CIN (clinically integrated network) know if they are actually clinically integrated or not? Also, the corollary to this question, which is how do CINs—or anybody, really—know if they are clinically integrated enough to start thinking about taking on downside risk? I asked David Muhlestein this question, and then we talk about his answer for 25 minutes. So, like most things in healthcare, it is filled with nuance; but if I was going to oversimplify his answer in one sentence, it's this: Did the practice change how they are practicing medicine in order to drive predetermined outcomes? This is the litmus test for whether care is integrated. Did practice patterns change within participating entities from whatever they were before to a new way of working? Did the team(s) reorient with a goal to attain some documented patient outcomes, be those outcomes patient satisfaction and/or clinical endpoints and/or functional endpoints? If no sort of fundamental change happened, probably it's a no on the clinical integration question. Another litmus test question I've also heard is this: Is the practice looking to get paid more for successes they've already had in upside risk arrangements with kind of little or no desire to transform the practice into a new practice model? If yes, then again, it's gonna be a no on the clinical integration question. The thing is with all of this … well, let me quote Dr. John Lee, who said this pretty succinctly on LinkedIn recently. He said, “Downside risk fundamentally changes how you have to think as a physician and how you manage your patient cohort. You start thinking about team-based care and using analytics.” Yes … interesting. The point Dr. Lee is making — which is kind of inferred, actually, in the listener questions, so let me just state the obvious, which is so obvious it could easily be overlooked — if you are able to take on downside risk and succeed, you're probably clinically integrated. If you're not, you probably aren't. Said another way (this might get a little chicken and egg-y), do you clinically integrate so that you can get the kind of risk-based contracts that enabled Iora, for example, to represent 5% of One Medical's patient base and 50% of its revenue? I have heard similar profitability stories about ChenMed and Oak Street. They all have capitated downside risk accountable care contracts. And have you seen what some of their leadership teams are minting? Obviously, the capitated downside risk when you're integrated gig can be highly profitable. But ... seems like also the community and outcomes are kind of great. Are they doing well by doing good? I'll grant you I might be convinced based on what I've seen. Galileo is another one. Cityblock. But the fundamental question is, do you integrate first and then go after the contracts? Or is it best to wait until there's a decent accountable opportunity on offer and then, sufficiently incented, change the practice? I do not know. I do know, however, what Scott Conard, MD, said in episode 391. I will poorly paraphrase. He said that if better patient outcomes are desired, there must be clinical integration and practice pattern changes. He said his practice went ahead and instituted these changes to improve patient care and did so within a pretty full-on FFS (fee-for-service) environment. My conclusion with all of this? It takes strong leadership with team-building skills and a strong family/community-centric mission to pull off a successful foray into accountable care with downside risk. These same talented and mission-driven leaders probably could manage to improve patient care and lower costs in an FFS environment as well. The converse of this is also likely true: Weak and ineffectual leaders can make a quadruple nothing burger mess in even the best VBC (value-based care) model. Yes … lots to unpack there. I am interested in your thoughts. In this episode, as mentioned, I am speaking with David Muhlestein, who is the chief research and innovation officer with Health Management Associates, or HMA. He has spent the past decade-plus studying ACOs (accountable care organizations) and value-based care, trying to understand what works, what doesn't, and how you change the business models to be successful under these new models of payment. Here is a short version of David's advice to clinically integrate and be ready for downside risk: ·       Step 1: Understand where you are—this includes doing a very clear-eyed self-assessment. ·       Step 2: Assess the needs of your patient population and focus on things where your capacity meets the needs of the population that you serve in the most impactful way. ·       Step 3: Take the outcome of step 2—which is basically whatcha gonna do to fix the most consequential problems that your patients have—and identify the processes by which you will do this. ·       Step 4: Do not boil the ocean. Start with a subset of patients and figure out the exact plan to do better to manage that population—easier said than done, of course. (Betsy Seals, by the way said something along these exact same lines in the shows giving advice to Medicare Advantage plans. And Karen Root [EP381] also alludes to something similar as she talks about how to socialize innovation. So clearly, this advice can be universalized.) You can learn more by emailing David at dmuhlestein@healthmanagement.com and by connecting with him on LinkedIn.     David Muhlestein, PhD, JD, is chief research and innovation officer for Health Management Associates (HMA). He is responsible for the firm's self-directed research and supports strategic planning and innovation. David's research and expertise center on healthcare payment and delivery transformation, understanding healthcare markets, and evaluating how the broader healthcare system is changing. He is a self-identified data nerd and regularly speaks and writes about healthcare system evolution. David joined HMA via its acquisition of Leavitt Partners in 2021, where he was the chief strategy and chief research officer. Additionally, David is a visiting policy fellow at the Margolis Center for Health Policy at Duke University, adjunct assistant professor at The Ohio State University College of Public Health, and a visiting fellow at the Accountable Care Learning Collaborative. He previously served as adjunct assistant professor of The Dartmouth Institute (TDI) at the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth College. David earned his PhD in health services management and policy, JD, MHA, and MS from The Ohio State University and a BA from Brigham Young University.   07:57 What does it mean to be clinically integrated? 10:23 How does changing practice patterns count as becoming clinically integrated? 11:11 How do you change the delivery of care to get better outcomes? 12:05 What does it mean to see better outcomes when becoming clinically integrated? 14:46 EP176 with Dr. Robert Pearl. 17:42 “Their structure is dictating what they are going to prioritize.” 19:02 “How do you care for the patients that have yet to come and see you?” 20:16 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 22:38 “When you're integrated, you realize you're not alone.” 25:50 Why does clinically integrating require a significant mindset change? 28:55 What does this country need to do from a policy perspective for this change? 30:24 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP.   You can learn more by emailing David at dmuhlestein@healthmanagement.com and by connecting with him on LinkedIn.   @DavidMuhlestein of @HMAConsultants discusses #integratedcare on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Nikhil Krishnan (Encore! EP355), Emily Kagan Trenchard, Dr Scott Conard, Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375)      

This week, I am with my Aventria team on-site at one of our clients. We are holding a full-day workshop to help our client figure out who all across the healthcare industry they will need to get aligned with to achieve greater success in the market and how to handle all of these inevitably conflicting interests strategically and also potentially from a messaging standpoint. I'm one of the subject matter experts who gets to pipe up during the part where we talk about all of these market dynamics, what everybody is up to, and who is going to want what so the client team can do their thing and get paid for it. Anyway, I say all this to say that this week, I am pretty darn busy but also thrilled to encore this episode with Nikhil Krishnan, founder of Out-Of-Pocket, and one of our most popular episodes in the past 12 months. My guest in this healthcare podcast is Nikhil Krishnan, who is the founder of the Out-Of-Pocket newsletter. I was talking with Nikhil, and we identified—or, more accurately, he identified—five business models of digital health. What makes each model distinct is a few factors. If you weren't in the healthcare industry, you'd probably expect that I'm going to say that the biggest factor a business model must hinge on must have something to do with patient outcomes or care or something that has something to do with the hopes and lives of patients. Except no. Mostly, our models do not define themselves by attributes of their patients, except on one dimension: who is paying their bills. Who is paying has enormous downstream consequences that I don't think people outside of healthcare, or even people inside of healthcare sometimes, really appreciate. It's because of all of the perverse incentives. It's a tangled web we weave. For example, let's just say you're a start-up founder trying to cook up your unique selling proposition. You can't just decide you're gonna lower costs and improve patient care as general constructs. Because let's just say you do that—that's your USP (lower costs and improve patient care)—and then you try to sell your thing to Medicare Advantage plans or large provider organizations. Oh, right … Medicare Advantage plans or even commercial ones—they don't care about the total cost of care. Neither do provider organizations unless they take on sufficient risk to care, and many do not. In fact, as came out in that JAMA article the other day, it could be construed that entities such as these carrier health plans have a perverse incentive to see total costs of care go up. So right, you naively (you're the start-up founder again in this case study, don't forget) trot into some administrator's office with a great something or other to reduce total costs of care—and you'll get cast out upon your petard on the quick. Every single day of the year in my world, I see people make this same mistake over and over again: not tailoring their product market fit to any particular market, with the recognition that some in this healthcare industry have a vested interest to see costs going up and some have a vested interest in costs going down. Either way, if we're talking about large organizations here and even some small ones, the money wins over patient care. So sad to have to say that, but listen to EP351 with Dr. Eric Bricker and you'll get all the context you need on that point. Here's the thing, though. I don't know about you, but I can't tell you how many digital health start-ups I run across where I look at their decks or have a conversation with a founder, and I ask who their customer is. Is it employers or health plans or … ? And they don't know. They're gonna figure this out later. I don't get how to successfully do that. I'm indubitably wrong here given all of the pivots I hear about that seem to go OK, but the prospect of completely redefining my operational goals and operations and market positioning at some point in the future seems like a daunting and avoidable prospect. I would be remiss not to mention, however, the number of really good mission-driven healthcare companies out there really trying hard to figure out how to create a sustainable business, a fair profit, while at the same time serving patients really well. There are companies adding value commensurate with the dollars that they come by, and I certainly applaud everything that they are doing. At the same time, given all this, here's a message for all of you VCs and private equity etc—people with money—out there. Let me quote Dr. Vivek Garg here (@vgargMD on Twitter): “If you're financing care delivery without board-level focus on clinical outcomes, you're part of the problem.” So, let's talk about these five business models that health and healthcare start-ups eventually settle themselves into after they figure out who their customer is. Nikhil Krishnan, my guest today, and I discuss how they can be financially viable and if we think they'll actually be able to provide superior patient outcomes. [Trumpets play here] In no particular order, this is what we've got for our five business models: Completely avoiding incumbents, creating a cash-pay ecosystem Better middleware (being the pipes, as I've heard so many times these past couple of weeks) Companies serving incumbents either by being a virtual front door for them or disrupting the competitive landscape somehow Joint ventures Old-school digital health who are now incumbents in their own space My guest in this episode, Nikhil Krishnan, has a bunch of things going on. He might be best known for his newsletter, Out-Of-Pocket Health, which you should certainly subscribe to. He's also working on a healthcare 101 crash course to teach newcomers about the Wild West we call American healthcare. Besides all of this, Nikhil does some early-stage investing. You can learn more at outofpocket.health and with Nikhil's upcoming course.   Nikhil Krishnan is the founder/thinkboi at Out-Of-Pocket, where he's trying to make the business of healthcare more easily understandable and (hopefully) entertaining. He runs a newsletter (yes, yet another one) and an online healthcare community and does some digital health investing on the side. He's “extremely online,” and you can find him firing off obscure healthcare memes plus the occasional insight on Twitter at @nikillinit.   06:20 What are the different models of digital health? 08:05 What are the different motives for cash-pay digital health models? 13:54 “One of healthcare's original sins is that every solution deployed has been a custom solution for the end user.” 14:19 How willing will these companies be to share their data with third parties? 18:07 “I don't think selling tech to large incumbents is going to move the needle.” 21:14 “These companies, most of them are actually getting extra money for the more expensive stuff.” 22:58 How did joint-venture digital health business models come about? 26:37 Why do you see partnerships more on the payer/provider side? 27:29 Who are the old-school digital health companies that could be considered incumbents? 29:36 Why do so many digital health start-ups have a hard time pinpointing who will pay for their services? 32:10 “The ability to go through the idea maze is way faster now.” 34:55 “The field is wide open to help teach people how healthcare works.”   You can learn more at outofpocket.health and with Nikhil's upcoming course.   @nikillinit discusses #digitalhealth on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Emily Kagan Trenchard, Dr Scott Conard, Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375), Dave Chase  

So, a few things to remind everybody. First of all, don't forget EHRs (electronic health records) were purpose built originally for billing. This is no secret. People quite openly have called EHR systems glorified cash registers. If I want to be generous, maybe I would restate this to say that EHRs were designed to document patient interactions. This is what their core architecture was built to achieve. But today, there's a lot that goes on that isn't a traditional patient interaction. First of all, me even calling it, frankly, a patient interaction should give longtime listeners a clue where this is headed. I mean, say you're sitting at home on your couch. I don't know. You're probably not considering yourself a patient. You're considering yourself a person sitting on your couch. However, say you're sitting on your couch and you haven't taken your COPD maintenance therapy. Potentially that is something of clinical significance that maybe should get figured out and noted somewhere—potentially prior to the acute event going down. Or, still talking about things that are relevant to patient health but which don't naturally tuck into an EHR system's native architecture, maybe we have social workers and nutritionists and all kinds of people who are not doctors or nurses or PAs (physician assistants) in this mix. Most of the time, these people don't even have access to the EHR. I mean, what percentage of things that are going to impact a person's health outcomes can be classified as traditional patient encounters that EHRs were designed to document? I mean, you've got your scheduler who wants to tell the transportation company something about a patient. Anything RPM. Where's the caregiver or the family in that garden-variety patient interaction? In sum, what is happening between codes getting written in patient health records? Where's all that information going? I mean, what order set are you gonna use to get all that in and out of the system? Am I saying anything revolutionary that many of you don't already know extremely well? No, I am not. But I am shining the spotlight on it to challenge what might have become a sort of default position at provider organizations today, which is to make the EHR the one ring to rule them all, which might be something to consider revising strategically. My guest in this healthcare podcast, Emily Kagan Trenchard, makes a super point about all of this that I haven't heard made so succinctly or so eloquently. Emily puts it this way: She says just integrating into the EHR as a reflex without contemplation is kind of the olden days. She talks about identifying the core functionalities, the centers of gravity that are needed to bring together providers and patients and everybody else in the mix. Then you find the best systems—call them platforms if you want. But if, at a fundamental level, you have a technology designed for one thing and you're trying to shoehorn it to do something else and this something else is a critical business function, maybe this is something to think about at the highest levels. Of course, it goes without saying that these platforms have to work together (obviously); but you kind of gotta get the right platform for the right job. Now, to make one point clear as glass, what we are not talking about here is cobbling together a bunch of point solutions. What we are talking about is getting the fundamentals, the core architecture here, solidified. Pam Arora talks about this at length in episode 246. She's the CIO at Texas Children's. Pam Arora says that if a health system doesn't get its technology infrastructure rock solid, if that infrastructure is janky in any way, then everything built on top of it will require duct tape and workarounds and probably not go as well as planned. On the show today, Emily Kagan Trenchard continues that theme. She talks about the four platforms that she feels are very necessary to underpin or be the chassis to best support helping providers and others help patients and people in and out of the clinic. She calls each platform a tentpole. These four platforms are: The EHR A CRM (customer relationship manager). And, by the way, when Emily says CRM, she's talking about more than software. It's more like a philosophy or a whole approach around relationship building with patients/people/customers. A cloud platform for data and analytics A data exchange One last takeaway, for me at least. Emily has talked about two basic facts that inform her thinking: (1) Providers and patients alike are increasingly not tolerant of friction. (2) What is easiest is the most likely to happen. Something that we don't get into in this show but certainly bears considering is the larger context here. Yeah, we got Amazon, we got Google—not only what they are doing alone but also what they are investing in. They have platforms that are purpose built to remove friction and to be really, really easy … one-click easy. So, let's talk about the WIIFM (the “what's in it for me?”) here for health systems to get a move on. When Merrill Goozner was on the show a few weeks ago (EP388), he says that when patients and employers and taxpayers start crying uncle on both healthcare prices as well as just bad friction-filled experiences and also when, at the same time, technology and new competitors move in on the supply side, he says what's gonna happen then is older incumbents like hospitals could find themselves getting their lunches eaten. So, probably intuitively as well as intellectually, health systems really getting their technology clearly optimized to support their communities, their patients, and their providers might seem to be mission critical, especially as we contemplate the stuff that Mike Thompson was talking about in episode 389 about how there is increasingly data out there which identifies hospitals who are very inefficiently run. And so, if at a very basic level a hospital has misaligned tech that's requiring a lot of workarounds and stuff, which is another way to say wasting a lot of staff time, having the right technology deployed in the right way will certainly ground efforts to be effective and also help compete with some of these lurking entities who are looking to take a piece of the $3 or $4 trillion healthcare industry in this country—of which hospitals account for something like $1 trillion. And as Eric Bricker, MD, says in episode 351, this is why hospitals have a big red target on their back. Also, I would be remiss not to mention that non–purpose-built, dare I say bad, technology causes bad clinician burnout, which causes bad turnover, which is really expensive. Arshad Rahim, MD, MBA, FACP, talks about this in episode 323. By the way, I interviewed Emily Kagan Trenchard at NODE.Health's Annual Digital Medicine Conference in New York City this past December—always a great conference. Emily is SVP and chief of consumer digital solutions over at Northwell Health. Northwell, in case you haven't heard of this health system, is very large: 21 hospitals, 850 outpatient clinics, 300,000 patients a year. Yeah, it's big. You can learn more at northwell.edu and connect with Emily on LinkedIn. Emily Kagan Trenchard offers a unique perspective from within the American medical system: A spoken-word-poet-turned-healthcare-executive, she is on a mission to remix the human in healthcare, challenging entrenched assumptions about what it means to give and receive care in the digital age. As senior vice president, chief of consumer digital solutions, for New York State's largest health system, Northwell Health, Emily leads teams that push the limits of how we use technology to make healthcare seamless and steeped in humanity while keeping the company competitive at a time of radical change. She is a big believer that innovation is an ongoing process, not just a box to check, and launched Northwell's first UX department to ensure that patient perspectives and needs drove the design of digital tools and systems. Prior to joining Northwell, Emily led Web systems for New York City's Lenox Hill Hospital, where she drove the development of many early consumer health tools, including the first-ever implementation of the Zocdoc scheduling platform for a hospital. Emily holds a master's degree in science writing from Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a bachelor's degree from the University of California at Berkeley.   07:55 How does customer digital solutions fit into the larger technology infrastructure in healthcare? 09:54 “Where else do you have centers of gravity that you should respect in the architecture?” 10:11 “There is a constellation of need here.” 11:51 “We interact with way more than just patients.” 14:28 “We have to be able to understand the network of relationships in a population.” 15:11 How do EHRs and CRMs interact as two tentpoles in healthcare? 17:32 “The question is, where does a human being work?” 19:54 How are patients staying on a nonfragmented care journey in a proactive way? 23:46 “Anybody who's a consumer of our digital offerings has a relationship with us.” 29:33 “The medicine is being practiced not only on our physical bodies but on our digital bodies.” You can learn more at northwell.edu and connect with Emily on LinkedIn.   @ektrenchard of @NorthwellHealth discusses #EHRs and #CRMs on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #EHR #CRM   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Scott Conard, Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375), Dave Chase, Cora Opsahl (EP373)  

On Relentless Health Value, I don't often get into our guests' personal histories. There are a bunch of reasons for this, which, if you buy me beer, we can talk podcast philosophy and I will tell you all about my personal, very arguable opinion here. Nevertheless, in this healthcare podcast, we are going rogue; and I am talking with Scott Conard, MD, who shares his personal story. You may ask why I decided to go this route for this particular episode, and I will tell you point blank that Dr. Conard's experience, his narrative, is like the perfect analogue (Is analogue the right word [allegory, composite example]?). His story just sums up in a nutshell what happens when a PCP (primary care provider) does the right thing, manages to improve patient care for real, and then at some point gets sucked into the intrigue and gambits and maneuvering that is, sadly, the business of healthcare in the United States today. Before we kick in, I just want to highlight a statement that Scott Conard makes toward the end of the show. He says: So, this isn't about punishing or blaming aspects of care that are being overrewarded today. It's really about what's the path forward for corporations, for middle-class Americans, and for primary care doctors who don't choose to be part of a big system. We have to figure out how to solve this problem. I hope people don't hear this and think that there are horrible people at some not-for-profit hospital systems, for example. There are some great people at not-for-profit health systems, but they have some really screwed-up incentives. A few notable notes from Dr. Scott Conard's journey and words of wisdom that I will just highlight up front here: He says that as a PCP, you actually can produce high-value care in a fee-for-service model … if you think differently and you change practice patterns. I have heard this from others as well, including most recently David Muhlestein, PhD, JD, who says this in an upcoming episode. Now here's a surefire way to fail at that, though: Be a physician who is getting asked to basically do everything a patient needs done alone and by themselves with little or no help and being told to do all of this within a seven-minute visit. This surefire way to not do well also could mean working on a team that's a team in name only because it's more of a marketing thing than an actual thing. As Dr. Scott Conard says later in this episode, healthcare organizations must embrace the art of medical leadership. So, I guess that's a spoiler alert there. Another point that Dr. Conard makes very crisply toward the end of the show is that doctors can kinda get pushed and pulled around in this mix. You have docs just trying to provide good care, and they work for one entity that gets bought and now it's some other entity … and what's happening upstairs and the prices being charged or somebody somewhere deciding not to make prices transparent, or deciding to sue low-income patients for unpaid medical bills or what charity care to offer or not to offer. These are not doctors in clinics making these calls, and we need to be careful here not to homogenize what some of these health systems are choosing to do like some kind of democratic vote was taken by everybody who works there. Health systems, hospitals, are many-celled complex entities. And a third takeaway—there are a bunch of takeaways in this show, but a third one I'll highlight here from Dr. Conard's story—is the old fiduciary responsibility code word being used by health system administrators as a euphemism for strategies that might need a euphemistic code word because the strategy has questionable community benefit. In the case study that we talk about today, the local health system managed to raise healthcare spend in North Texas by $100 million year over year. Employers and employees in North Texas, communities, wound up paying $100 million more year over year in healthcare one particular year. This was prices going up. It also was removing a big systemic initiative to keep heads out of hospital beds. Reiterating here, we are not talking about doctors here particularly because, of course, the vast majority of doctors are trying to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. But suddenly in North Texas, physicians did not have the population health efforts and the team really standing behind them helping to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. That sucks for everybody trying to do the right thing, and, as has been said, burnout is moral injury in a cheap Halloween costume. Moral injury happens when you have good people, clinicians, doctors, and others who realize that what is going on, at best, is not helping the patient. You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at scott@scottconard.com. Scott Conard, MD, DABFP, FAAFM, is board certified in family and integrative medicine and has been seeing patients for more than 35 years. He was an associate clinical professor at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Dallas for 21 years. He has been the principal investigator in more than 60 clinical trials, written many articles, and published five books on health, well-being, leadership, and empowerment. Starting as a solo practitioner, he grew his medical practice to more than 510 clinicians over the next 20 years. In its final form, the practice was a value-based integrated delivery network that reduced the cost of care dramatically through prevention and proactive engagement. When this was acquired by a hospital system, he became the chief medical officer for a brokerage/consulting firm and an innovation lab for effective health risk–reducing interventions. Today, he is co-founder of Converging Health, LLC, a technology-empowered consulting and services company working with at-risk entities like self-insured corporations, medical groups and accountable care organizations taking financial risk, and insurance captives to improve well-being, reduce costs, and improve the members' experience. Through Dr. Conard's work with a variety of organizations and companies, he understands that every organization has a unique culture and needs. It is his ability to find opportunities and customize solutions that delivers success through improved health and lower costs for his clients. 05:26 What triggered Scott's career journey? 06:02 What caused Scott to rethink what is good primary care? 06:42 Why did Scott realize that he is actually a risk-management expert as a primary care doctor rather than someone who treats symptoms? 07:56 Encore! EP335 with Brian Klepper, PhD. 08:24 How did Scott's practice change after this realization? 08:35 What is a “Whole-Person Risk Score”? 09:39 Scott's book, The Seven Numbers (That Will Save Your Life). 11:37 “You start to move from a transactional model to a relationship model.” 14:02 Did Scott have any risk-based contracts? 14:39 Why is it so important to look at total cost of care and not just primary care cost? 19:39 Scott's book, The Art of Medical Leadership. 20:44 EP381 with Karen Root. 29:14 Why did Scott move over to help corporations? 31:42 EP364 with David Muhlestein, PhD, JD. 32:22 “Everybody thought they were honoring their fiduciary responsibility, and the incentives are completely misaligned.” 33:02 EP384 with Wendell Potter. 33:15 “It's the system that's broken; it's not bad people.” You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at scott@scottconard.com. @ScottConardMD discusses #privateequity on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #PCP #patients Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Gloria Sachdev and Chris Skisak, Mike Thompson, Dr Rishi Wadhera (Encore! EP326), Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375), Dave Chase, Cora Opsahl (EP373), Cora Opsahl (EP372)    

Adam, Bryan, and Gina give a recap on their time in San Diego including Gina's experience at a nude beach. Adam remembers the time Al Lewis of ‘The Munsters' took him to a nude beach when he was 10 before hearing some ‘Tales from the Cheap'. They hear from a person who was taken to Minor League Baseball games after the 4th inning when it was free and a guy who received nothing but Dollar Store items for his birthday. Finally, the Chassy Media crew share their own personal ‘Tales from the Cheap'. PLUGS: Watch Dane Cook's new comedy special, ‘Above it all' streaming now at: DaneCook.com And follow him on Twitter @DaneCook THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TODAY'S SPONSORS: Geico.com JoinCrowdHealth.com enter Adam Meater.com SimpliSafe.com/ADAM

Adam remembers the type casting in the 70's where a handful of nearly identical actors always played the same roles before Dawson debuts his finished mashup of Olivia Newton-John and porn director Bobby Hollander. Adam looks at the career of Shania Twain and her partnership with Robert John "Mutt" Lange before giving insight into his dog's sleeping habits. The gang takes calls from listeners including someone wondering if he is going to get in trouble for using the terms ‘sir' and ‘ma'am', someone who heard a rumor about Charles Manson and Al Lewis, and someone wondering when the next Carolla Cruise will be. THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TODAY'S SPONSORS: SimpliSafe.com/ADAM Geico.com Con-Cret.com/PODCAST Freshly.com/ACS The Jordan Harbinger Show

In this conclusion of a far-ranging 2-part episode, Oscar-nominated actress Brenda Vaccaro joins Gilbert and Frank to talk about the fun of filming comedies, the diva antics of Lauren Bacall (and Faye Dunaway), making a pilot for Lucille Ball, the comedic genius of Peter Cook, the generosity of Quentin Tarantino and sharing the stage and screen with Michael Caine, Gene Hackman, Al Lewis, Vincent Price and Frank Sinatra (among others). Also, Andrea Martin spoofs a Playtex ad, Ron Leibman plays the "bongos," Warren Beatty spots the "funny" in Jack Warden and Brenda tries to wrap her mind around the Cesar Romero rumor. PLUS: "Cactus Flower"! Shooting "Supergirl"! Remembering Laura Nyro! In search of George Hamilton! The talents of Frank Welker! And Brenda weighs in on the dramatic chops of Gilbert Gottfried! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices