Podcast appearances and mentions of mara gordon

You're listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Mara Gordon, MD.Dr. Mara is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist and contributor to NPR. She also writes the newsletter Your Doctor Friend by Mara Gordon about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly.Dr. Mara is back today with Part 2 of our conversation about weight, health, perimenopause and menopause! As we discussed last time, finding menopause advice that doesn't come with a side of diet culture is really difficult. Dr Mara is here to help, and she will not sell you a supplement sign or make you wear a weighted vest.This episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can't do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you'll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today's conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack's Notes, so that's a super easy, free way to support the show!And don't miss these:Episode 209 TranscriptVirginiaSo today we're going to move away from the weight stuff a little bit, into some of the other the wide constellation of things that can happen in menopause and perimenopause. Before we get into some nitty gritty stuff, I want to do Laurie's question about hormone replacement therapy, since that is still one of those topics that people are like, Is it good? Is it bad? I don't know.So Laurie asked: Is there a reason why a doctor would not want to prescribe hormone replacement therapy? My doctor seems more willing to treat individual symptoms instead of using HRT. Is that maybe because I'm still getting my period?MaraI love this question. Now my professor hat can nerd out about interpretation of scientific research! So first, I'll just briefly say, Laurie, no big deal that you said HRT. But just so everyone's aware, the preferred term is menopausal hormone therapy, MHT, or just hormone therapy, and it's not a huge deal. But I think the North American Menopause Society now uses “menopausal hormone therapy.” The thinking is, hormones don't necessarily need to be replaced. It comes back to that idea of, menopause is a natural part of life, and so the idea that they would need to be replaced is not totally accurate. VirginiaWe're not trying to get you out of menopause, right? The goal isn't to push you back into some pre-menopausal hormonal state. MaraBut again, not a big deal. You'll see HRT still used, and a lot of doctors still use that term. So I graduated from medical school in 2015 and I remember one of the first times that a patient asked me about using menopausal hormone therapy, I was terrified. And I was still in training, so luckily, I had a mentor who guided me through it. But I had absorbed this very clear message from medical school, which is that menopausal hormone therapy will cause heart disease, cause pulmonary emboli, which are blood clots in the lungs, and cause breast cancer.And I was like, “Ahhh! I'm gonna cause harm to my patients. This is scary.” I had also learned that hot flashes–they weren't life threatening. So a patient could just use a fan and she'd be fine, right? She didn't need medicine for it.VirginiaCool.MaraI think the dismissal of symptoms here is just straight up misogyny. That message of, oh, you should just live with this You're tough, you're a woman, you can do it. This is just the next stage of it. Is just misogyny, right?But the fear of using menopausal hormone therapy has a specific historical context. There was a major study called the Women's Health Initiative, and it was a randomized control trial, which is the gold standard in medical research. People were given estrogen and progestin to treat menopausal symptoms or they were given a placebo, and they didn't know which pill they took. But WHI was actually halted early because they found an increased risk of breast cancer. This was on the front page of The New York Times. It was a really, really big deal. That was 2002 or 2003. So even 15 years later, when I was starting out as a doctor, I was still absorbing its message. And I think a lot of doctors who are still in practice have just deeply absorbed this message.But there's a lot to consider here. The first issue is in the way that information about the Women's Health Initiative was communicated. Nerd out with me for a second here: There is a big difference between absolute risk and relative risk. And this is a really subtle issue that's often communicated poorly in the media.So I looked it up in the initial paper that came out of the Women's Health Initiative. There was a relative risk of 26 percent of invasive breast cancer, right? So that meant that the people who got the estrogen and progestin, as opposed to a placebo, had a relative increased risk of 26 percent compared to the placebo arm.VirginiaWhich sounds scary,MaraSounds terrifying, right? But the absolute risk is the risk in comparison to one another. And they found that if you're a patient taking the estrogen/progestin, your absolute risk was 8 people out of 10,000 women a year would get invasive breast cancer. So it's very, very small.And this is an issue I see in medical journalism all the time. We talk about relative risk, like your risk compared to another group, but the absolute risk remains extremely low.And just to round it out: I looked all this up about cardiovascular events too. Things like a heart attack, a stroke. So the absolute risk was 19. So there were 19 cases of a cardiovascular event out of 10,000 women in a year. People just freaked out about this because of the way that it was covered in the media. VirginiaI was fresh out of college, doing women's health journalism at the time. So I fully own having been part of that problem. We definitely reported on the relative risk, not the absolute risk. And I don't understand why. I look back and I'm like, what were we all doing? We ended up taking this medication away from millions of women who could really benefit from it.MaraI found a paper that showed between 2002 and 2009 prescriptions for menopausal hormone therapy declined by more than 60 percent. VirginiaI'm not surprised. MaraAnd then even up until the time I started my training, right in 2015, we're just seeing a huge decline in hormone therapy prescriptions.One other thing that's also super important to acknowledge about the Women's Health Initiative is that they enrolled women over 60, which is not really representative of women who want or need hormone therapy. So the average age of menopause is 51 and the vast majority of women who are experiencing symptoms that would respond well to hormone therapy are much younger. We're talking here mostly about hot flashes. Which we call vasomotor symptoms of menopause, but it's basically hot flashes. Women dealing with this are much younger, right? So they're approaching menopause, late 40s, and right after the menopausal transition, early 50s, and then they don't necessarily need it anymore, after their symptoms have improved.VirginiaAnd it will also be true that with women in their 60s, you're going to see more incidence of cancer and heart disease in that age group than in women in their 40s anyway, right? MaraRightVirginiaSo even the 19 cases, the eight cases—they were looking at a higher risk population in general. MaraYeah. And so there have been all these subsequent analyses, which is why now we're seeing menopausal hormone therapy sort of on the upswing. There's a lot of increased interest in it. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends it, the North American Menopause Society, the British Menopause Society; here's a full run-down. It's not that everybody needs it, and we'll get to that in a second, but it is a totally safe and appropriate treatment for—specifically and most importantly—for vasomotor symptoms of menopause. Like hot flashes. There's been all these further analyses of the Women's Health Initiative data and and then from other studies, too. And basically, it shows that when the hormone therapy is initiated before age 60, or within 10 years of menopause, there's a reduced risk of heart disease and reduced mortality.VirginiaWow! MaraSo the timing matters. Isn't that so interesting? The timing matters.Also, the route of administration matters. So what that means in English is that an estrogen patch seems to have a lower risk of blood clots. So one of those fears of the, you know, initial Women's Health Initiative data was that you might have an increased risk of blood clots. But it's something about the way that the estrogen is metabolized. It's not metabolized through the liver when it's absorbed through the skin, and something about that process seems to decrease the risk of blood clots.So that's why your doctor, if you're interested in menopausal hormone therapy, might recommend an estrogen patch rather than a pill.VirginiaGot it. MaraThere's a lot of ambiguity in all of this data, because, you know, we're talking about just huge numbers of people, and it's hard to sort of isolate variables when you're studying just like massive cohorts of people and trying to understand what you know, what factors affect your risk for which diseases. It's not clear that taking hormones prevents heart disease. And that's one of the big claims I see with menopause influencers, that every single person needs this.The data don't support it at this point in time, and the major menopause organizations do not recommend it as a universal preventative treatment for everybody. But it seems like there might be some sort of association that may become clearer as research continues. That said, now it seems like the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. I learned, “be afraid of menopausal hormone treatment.” And now all these menopause influencers are saying everyone should be on hormone therapy.I don't know the answer. And so the way that I try to parse through all of this noise is, you know, go to trusted sources, right? So I stick to society guidelines, like the North American menopause society, the British menopause society, they're run by world experts in menopause.VirginiaOkay, so we don't need to be terrified of hormone therapy, and you can be on it if you're still getting your period right? Just to finish Laurie's question.MaraIf you're still getting a period regularly, you're more in perimenopause than past the menopausal transition. And we will often use contraception to help and that you can have a lot of the same benefits from using contraception in that stage. It's also useful just because unintended pregnancy still can be totally a thing in your 40s. But yes, you can absolutely use traditional regimens of menopausal hormone therapy while you're still getting a period too. Just know it won't prevent pregnancy. VirginiaSince we talked a little bit about hot flashes, I'm gonna jump to Judy's question so we can kind of round that piece out: One of the things I am really struggling with is the way I have lost all ability to regulate temperature. I am boiling hot almost all the time, and the slightest thing makes me break out into a full sweat, which makes me not want to move at all.My doctor has not been super helpful in navigating this. What can I do to mitigate this issue? If anything, it is so very hard for me not to blame the size of my body for this, since the correlation seems so clear, smaller body less sweating, larger body sweating all the dang time.MaraJudy, I empathize first of all. Just one caveat I can't really give medical advice to Judy. There are a lot of things that could be going on, and it's really important that you see a doctor and get a full history and physical exam. But I will say that this is one of the things that menopausal hormone therapy is extremely helpful for, is hot flashes.VirginiaThat was my first thought! MaraThere are a lot of influencers who really overstate the benefits of hormone therapy, right? Hormone therapy is not really going to cause significant weight loss or prevent weight gain. It's not totally clear that it helps with mood symptoms or even sleep is a little more ambiguous. But the one thing it really works for is hot flashes. So that would be my thought: Start there. VirginiaAnd on the feeling like you want to blame your body for it: I don't know if Judy identifies as fat, but as someone who identifies as fat, I often feel like I'm sweatier now than when I was thinner. I run warmer. All my skinny friends will be bundled up in coats, and I still won't be wearing one in October. I do notice that. And I think that this is a situation where that is, even if those two things correlate— you're larger and you're sweatier—is that worth putting yourself through the hell of weight loss? You may decide yes, it is, if hormone therapy doesn't work for you.But that's one of those times where I bring it back to “What would actually make my daily life miserable?” I can drink water, I can be in AC, I'm gonna find a link to this nighttime cooling bed thing that my friend Claire Zulkey really loves. MaraI've heard of those!VirginiaI think there are options to mitigate your suffering with this. Medicine is definitely an option. Before you go to “okay, my body size has to be the thing that changes.”MaraI totally agree. I just deal with this all the time where people tell me in my clinic that they want to lose weight. And when I sort of gently ask, what are you hoping to achieve? What are your goals? They're often things that can be achieved through other means. Like, people say my clothes don't fit, right? And most of my patients are low-income, right? I'm not trying to be flippant about the idea that everyone can just go and purchase a new, you know, multi $1,000 wardrobe at the drop of a hat. But it is possible to get new clothes in affordable ways. Don't torture yourself with clothes that don't fit because you feel like weight gain is a moral failing. And I think that there are things that we can do to help keep us at a comfortable temperature, right wear clothes that feel, you know, that feel good. Air conditioning is an amazing modern invention. And, you know, cool beverages, ice cream. VirginiaPopsicle O'Clock is very important in my summer right now, very important. MaraWait, what's a popsicle clock?VirginiaOh, Popsicle O'Clock. It's just the time of day where you eat popsicles. It could be 9am it could be 4pm just whenever I feel like we need to add popsicles to a situation.MaraI think we all need more popsicles in our life, that is absolutely for sure.So I think what I'm hearing from Judy's question is once again, shame about body size, and also this myopic zooming in on weight loss as the only possible solution. Which I blame doctors for in many ways! Some people do benefit from weight loss, right? I'm not opposed to the idea that anybody would ever want to lose weight. I don't think that that's a betrayal of fat solidarity, necessarily. But that there are other things you can do just to make your life feel better in the meantime, or even if you choose to never pursue weight loss. There are things you can do to feel better, and we shouldn't deprive ourselves of those things.VirginiaAnd you don't know that it is the weight gain. It could be age and hormones, and those coincided with the weight gain for you personally. But there are lots of thin women getting hot flashes all the time too.Okay, this next question is from Michaela: I am super curious about the connection between perimenopause, menopause and mental health symptoms, specifically, an uptick in anxiety and depression. Is this a thing?We also got many questions about whether perimenopause and menopause exacerbate ADHD symptoms. MaraSo this is a question I get a lot from my patients, and I've seen a lot of discourse about online. And the short answer is: There is probably a connection between the hormonal changes of perimenopause and the menopausal transition and mental health. Do we understand it? No. So I mean, with ADHD specifically, I will say: This is really not my area of expertise. It's a very complex mental health condition, and our medical understanding of it is really rapidly evolving. I have many patients who have a diagnosis of ADHD but I'm typically not the one who diagnoses them. That being said: Estrogen affects neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are implicated in ADHD. Declining estrogen does seem to affect dopamine, in particular, which is implicated in ADHD. And anecdotally, I've had many of my patients say that they feel like their ability to focus and sustain attention decreases. And they experience brain fog as they enter perimenopause and menopause. So it's there's probably something going on, and a lot of researchers are really actively studying it, but we don't know yet.VirginiaDo we know if this is something that hormone therapy can help with?MaraSo I think the answer is, I don't know.VirginiaWhat about anxiety and depression?MaraI don't think the data are there, right? Hormone therapy is usually not considered a first line treatment for the mental health conditions that are often associated with the menopausal transition. But we have great medicines for those conditions. We have good treatments for ADHD, we have good treatments for anxiety and depression. And sometimes during the menopausal transition, patients might need an increase of those treatments. And that could mean going back into therapy, if you've been out of therapy, increasing your medications or restarting a med that you may have stopped years ago. Those are all totally valid approaches during this phase.And I guess what I'd say, is that it's okay to trust your body. And if you notice changes in your mental health associated with perimenopause or menopause itself, ask about it. Don't be afraid to advocate for yourself. And while hormone therapy doesn't look like it is an effective treatment specifically for those symptoms, there are other treatments, and you should feel empowered to ask about them.VirginiaThe next question goes back to some of the diet and exercise stuff we've touched on. This person writes: Since recently reaching menopause, my cholesterol has become high. I understand there is a proven link between menopause and increased cholesterol, and that weight is part of the picture. I'm trying to lower my cholesterol with focus on nutrition and exercise. But it is f*****g with my head because it feels like a very restrictive diet. I'd love any thoughts on the menopause cholesterol connection and keeping cholesterol low with nutrition and exercise without falling into the abyss of obsessing about how many almonds I've eaten.MaraOh, that is such a good question!VirginiaThe almond of it all. MaraAlmonds are really good in some scenarios, but also just like, kind of a sad snack. I always think about President Obama eating those, like, eight almonds, or whatever.VirginiaIt turns out that was a joke and he wasn't doing that. But just the fact that everybody assumed he would says a lot! MaraThat is hilarious, and I didn't know! And it just shows how with information online, the initial story sticks. Like to this day, 10 years later, I still thought that Barack Obama ate eight almonds as his indulgent midnight snack every single night. I hope the man is eating some ice cream and living his best life. Okay, so there is absolutely a link between menopause and elevated risk of cardiovascular disease. But even within the term cholesterol, there are different types. I wouldn't really say to a patient, “Your cholesterol is high.” One thing you might hear is “your LDL cholesterol is high,” which is known popularly as, the “bad” cholesterol. Which, again, moral language alert. But LDL cholesterol is a proxy for risk of cardiovascular disease. I will say it's not a great one; it's kind of a blunt instrument. We measure and we treat it, because we don't have other great ways of predicting cardiovascular risk. But it is not the full portrait, although it's certainly a risk factor for developing cardiovascular disease. And the transition of menopause seems to impact LDL, cholesterol, other biomarkers of cardiovascular disease, and increases your risk for cardiovascular disease.And what's interesting–I think we talked about this a little bit already, is that this happens, this this risk happens independent of normal aging.So, for example, women who go through menopause early start developing this increased risk earlier than women who go through menopause slightly later. And overall, we see that women develop cardiovascular disease, at rates lower than men, and at later in life than men. And there's a hypothesis that this has to do with menopause, right? That there's a protective effect of estrogen, but then when your estrogen starts to decline in menopause, it puts women at an increased risk compared to where they were pre-menopause.There's also some data to suggest that the severity of menopause symptoms—particularly vasomotor symptoms like hot flashes or sleep disturbances—may indicate risk for developing cardiovascular disease. So this is not to scare everyone, but it's good to have knowledge. If you're having really severe hot flashes, it may indicate that you are at slightly higher risk for developing cardiovascular disease than somebody who is not. The intention of having this knowledge is not to make you feel shame, and not to berate you for your belly fat or whatever. It's to have knowledge so that you can help mitigate risk factors in ways that feel aligned with your values and ways that feel aligned with the way that you want to pursue health in your life.And so I would approach this reader's or this listener's question with smy same approach to all of my patients questions. “I have hypertension, does that mean I need to lose weight?” “I have diabetes, does that mean I need to lose weight?” The answer is that we have many treatments that can help you address these concerns independent of weight loss. But this is not to say that you cannot pursue weight loss too, right? And if using a GLP-1 agonist to reduce your visceral adiposity is aligned with your values, and you can tolerate the side effects, and you feel good about it, and it's covered by your insurance….that's totally a reasonable approach. But it's not the only one. So I think what I'm hearing from this patient is the menopause flavor of what I do every single day in my work as a size inclusive doctor. Which is: How can we disentangle weight stigma and body shame from these questions of how to lead a healthy life? And the idea of giving you more information, I hope, is not to shame you or make you feel guilt for the relationship between body size and risk of cardiovascular disease, but instead, to give you information that might help you take proactive care of your body, right?And proactive care might mean committing to an exercise routine. Proactive care might mean taking a statin. A statin is a very common cholesterol medicine like Lipitor. It might mean getting your blood pressure under control and taking an antihypertensive.VirginiaI also want to say on cholesterol, specifically, I did a piece that I'll link to digging into the connection between nutrition and cholesterol. And the data is not as strong as I think a lot of doctors are telling folks.And I think the benefit of making dietary changes—the amount it could lower cholesterol—was not huge. It was like three points or six points or something in one of the studies we looked at. So if it's making you crazy to count almonds, it's possible that medication might be a more health promoting strategy for you. Because it will be less stressful and it will have a bigger benefit on your cholesterol than just trying to control it through diet and exercise.MaraYeah, I totally agree. I think there's a really strong genetic component that we haven't fully understood and medication is a totally reasonable approach and very safe approach. Honestly, statins are pretty benign medications. They're pretty inexpensive, pretty minimal side effects, which is not to say– nobody's paying me from the statin companies, I swear to God!–but yeah, like they're, they're pretty benign as medications go. And I think it's a totally reasonable way to approach this issue.VirginiaI just think it's one of those times where this is shame coming in, where it's like, “You should be able to fix this with how you eat and exercise, and so you don't get the medication unless you fail at that!” This is a framing that I've encountered from doctors. But what if we gave the medication, what if we also consider diet and exercise, but don't make that a pass/fail situation in order to earn the medication? MaraYeah, that's really interesting.And even the language you're using Virginia is what we use in the medical record, and I've tried to stop it. But the way we're taught to describe patients, is “patient failed XYZ treatment,” right? And I feel like we're both at once, overly invested in pharmaceutical treatments, right and underinvested. They're a very useful tool. And we moralize it, both pro and con? Sometimes, like, we moralize in favor of it. So if your BMI is 26 or above, you need to be on a GLP one agonist, which is just false, right?But on the other hand, I think we often underutilize medications because there's this sense that you're getting at —that you have to exhaust all of your like willpower options first, and it's somehow failing to use a med. And that is really false too. They're really useful tools. Science is really useful, and we shouldn't feel ashamed to use it.VirginiaAll right. And our last question, I like because it just will give us a chance to kind of sum up some key points: As a post menopausal woman, I feel like I'm swimming in information, and I'm overwhelmed by it all. What are Dr Gordon's top three pieces of advice out of all of the WHO meaning, if women at this time only did these three things, it would make the biggest difference, and then they just had it. You know, is, does it need to be different for perimenopause versus post menopause? Or maybe not.So what are your top three? Top three tips for surviving this life stage?MaraOh, my God, if only I knew! I'm flattered that you're asking, and I will do my best to answer, but I don't think there's a right answer at all.So I've thought about a couple things. I will say that, you know, longevity and wellness and health span is extremely complicated, but it's also kind of simple, right?So sometimes the advice that we've just heard over and over again is actually really, really good, right? So, sleep. Are we sleeping enough?Staying engaged with social relationships, that seems to be extremely important for longevity. And it's kind of amazing, actually. When they do these long-term studies on people who are thriving into old age, like they have really strong relationships. And that is so important.Moving our bodies and it does not need to be punishing. Workouts can be gardening. I know Virginia, I love receiving your gardening content online. Gardening is an amazing form of exercise, and can be very life affirming, and does not need to feel like punishment. Just getting up, moving our bodies, sleeping enough, maintaining relationships, cultivating a sense of purpose and meaning in our lives. It's actually been really studied right, that people who have a sense of meaning and have a sense of purpose in their lives tend to live longer and live longer, healthier lives.So all of this is to say that like it's complicated, but sometimes it's not. And there are a million people on the Internet who want to sell you a miracle drug, a miracle supplement, a miracle weighted vest, whatever. But sometimes simple, Simple is good. Easier said than done, right?VirginiaYeah, but start simple. That's wonderful.MaraCan I ask? Virginia, what would your advice be? VirginiaI love the three areas you hit on: Sleep, social relations and exercise or moving your body. None of those are about weight loss or dieting. I think that's really helpful for us to keep in mind that the things that might protect our health the most can also be very joyful as well. The idea that doing things that makes you happy and reduce your stress can be health-promoting is great. And I think that's something especially in midlife. We are all incredibly busy. We're holding a lot of things together. A lot of us are caregivers, maybe sandwich generation caregivers. So prioritizing your own joy in that feels really wonderful.ButterVirginiaAll right, so speaking of joy, let's do some Butter! Dr. Mara, what do you have forus?MaraI have a Philadelphia-specific one, but hopefully it can be extrapolated to our listeners in different locations. So I have recently been really craving soft serve ice cream. And so I googled best soft serve in Philadelphia, and I found this Vietnamese coffee shop called Càphê Roasters, which is in North Philly. In a neighborhood called Kensington. And it has condensed milk soft serve ice cream. So good.And so I recently, I had to give a lecture at a medical school in the north part of the city early in the morning. It was like, 8am and I was like, “Oh, I'm never up in this neighborhood. I gotta get over there.” And I went after I gave my lecture, and I bought myself ice cream at 10:30 in the morning. And I ate it in my car, and it was so good. Condensed milk. So good. But soft serve in general, is my Butter. But for those of you in Philly, go to Càphê Roasters in Kensington and get the condensed milk. It is chef's kiss, delicious.VirginiaAmazing. I'm gonna double your Butter and say ice cream in general is my Butter right now. We have a spare fridge freezer that I have just been loading up with all of the popsicles to get us through summer. But also: Ice cream dates. Something that comes up a lot for me as a co-parent is figuring out how to have one on one time with my kids. Since we have joint custody, they move as a package. So I get kid-free time, which is wonderful, but when they're with me, it's just me. So one thing I've been figuring out is pockets of time when I can take one kid out for ice cream. It's usually when a sibling is at another activity, and so we have an hour to kill, and often we would just like, wait for the activity, or go home and come back, and then you're just driving.And now I'm like, No, that will be our ice cream break!MaraI love that.VirginiaSo one kid's at the library doing her book trivia team stuff, and the other kid and I are getting ice cream while we wait for her. And it's great one on one time with kids. Obviously, the ice cream is delicious. The other thing I've realized, especially if you have younger kids who are still building restaurant skills, ice cream is a great practice run at being a person in a restaurant, which is really hard for kids understandably. It is one food thing that they're excited to go do. And you do have to sit and practice eating it somewhat neatly. There's a high mess potential. My pro-move for that is, always have wipes in your car, bring a pack of wipes in. MaraI love that, and it's so intentional about sort of creating traditions with kids. That feels really special. But I will say I had my ice cream solo, and that was also really good solo ice cream too.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

You're listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest isMara Gordon, MD. Dr. Mara is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist and contributor to NPR. She also writes the newsletter Your Doctor Friend by Mara Gordon about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly. And she was previously on the podcast last November, answering your questions on how to take a weight inclusive approach to conditions like diabetes, acid reflux, and sleep apnea.Dr. Mara is back today to tackle all your questions about perimenopause and menopause! Actually, half your questions—there were so many, and the answers are so detailed, we're going to be breaking this one into a two parter. So stay tuned for the second half, coming in September! As we discussed in our recent episode with Cole Kazdin, finding menopause advice that doesn't come with a side of diet culture is really difficult. Dr Mara is here to help, and she will not sell you a supplement sign or make you wear a weighted vest. This episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can't do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you'll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today's conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack's Notes, so that's a super easy, free way to support the show!And don't miss these: Episode 203 TranscriptVirginiaWhen I put up the call out for listener questions for this, we were immediately inundated with, like, 50 questions in an hour. People have thoughts and feelings and need information! So I'm very excited you're here. Before we dive into the listener questions, let's establish some big picture framing on how we are going to approach this conversation around perimenopause and menopause.MaraI should start just by introducing myself. I'm a family doctor and I have a very general practice, which means I take care of infants and I have a couple patients who are over 100. It's amazing. And families, which is such an honor, to care for multiple generations of families. So, perimenopause and menopause is one chunk of my practice, but it is not all of it.I come from the perspective of a generalist, right? Lots of my patients have questions about perimenopause and menopause. Many of my patients are women in that age group. And I have been learning a lot over the last couple of years. The science is emerging, and I think a lot of practice patterns amongst doctors have really changed, even in the time that I have been in practice, which is about 10 years. There has been a huge shift in the way we physicians think about menopause and think about perimenopause, which I think is mostly for the better, which is really exciting.There's an increased focus on doctors taking menopause seriously, approaching it with deep care and concern and professionalism. And that is excellent. But this menopause advocacy is taking place in a world that's really steeped in fatphobia and diet culture. Our culture is just so susceptible to corporate influence. There are tons of influencers who call themselves menopause experts selling supplements online, just selling stuff. Sort of cashing in on this. And I will note, a lot of them are medical doctors, too, so it can be really hard to sort through.VirginiaYour instinct is to trust, because you see the MD.MaraTotally. There's a lot of diet talk wrapped up in all of it, and there's a lot of fear-mongering, which I would argue often has fatphobia at its core. It's a fear of fatness, a fear of aging, a fear of our bodies not being ultra thin, ultra sexualized bodies of adolescents or women in their 20s, right? This is all to say that I think it's really exciting that there's an increased cultural focus on women's health, particularly health in midlife. But we also need to be careful about the ways that diet culture sneaks into some of this talk, and who might be profiting from it. So we do have some hearty skepticism, but also some enthusiasm for the culture moving towards taking women's concerns and midlife seriously.VirginiaThe cultural discourse around this is really tricky. Part of why I wanted you to come on to answer listener questions is because you approach healthcare from a weight inclusive lens, which is not every doctor. It is certainly not every doctor in the menopause space. And you're not selling us a supplement line or a weighted vest, so that's really helpful. So that's a good objective place for us to start! Here's our first question, from Julie: It's my understanding that the body naturally puts on weight in menopause, especially around the torso, and that this fat helps to replace declining estrogen, because fat produces estrogen. I don't know where I've heard this, but I think it's true? But I would like to know a doctor's explanation of this, just because I think it's just more evidence that our bodies know what they're doing and we can trust them, and that menopause and the possible related weight gain is nothing to fear or dread or fight.MaraOof, okay, so we are just diving right in. Thank you so much for this question. It's one I get from many of my patients, too. So I looked into some of the literature on this, and it is thought that declining estrogen—which happens in the menopausal transition—does contribute to what we call visceral adiposity, which is basically fatty tissue around the internal organs. And in clinical practice, we approximate this by assessing waist circumference. This is really spotty! But we tend to think of it as “belly fat,” which is a fatphobic term. I prefer the term “visceral adiposity” even though it sounds really medical, it gets more specifically at what the issue is, which is that this particular adipose tissue around internal organs can be pathologic. It can be associated with insulin resistance, increasing risk of cardiovascular disease, and risk of what we call metabolic—here's a mouthful—metabolic dysfunction associated steatotic liver disease, which is what fatty liver disease has been renamed.So I don't think we totally understand why this happens in the menopausal transition. There is a hypothesis that torso fatty tissue does help increase estrogen, and it's the body's response to declining estrogen and attempts to preserve estrogen. But in our modern lives, where people live much longer than midlife, it can create pathology. VirginiaI just want to pause there to make sure folks get it. So it could be that this extra fat in our torsos develops for a protective reason —possibly replacing estrogen levels—but because we now live longer, there's a scenario where it doesn't stay protective, or it has other impacts besides its initial protective purpose.MaraRight? And this is just a theory. It's kind of impossible to prove something like that, but many menopause researchers have this working theory about, quote—we've got to find a better term for it—belly fat. What should we call it, Virginia? Virginia. I mean, or can we reclaim belly fat? But that's like a whole project. There is a lot of great work reclaiming bellies, but we'll go with visceral adiposity right now.MaraAnyway, this is an active area of menopause research, and I'm not sure we totally understand the phenomenon. That being said, Julie asks, “Should we just trust our bodies?” Do our bodies know what they're doing? And I think that's a really philosophical question, and that is the heart of what you're asking, Julie, rather than what's the state of the research on visceral adiposity in the menopause transition.It's how much do we trust our bodies versus how much do we use modern medicine to intervene, to try to change the natural course of our bodies? And it's a question about the role that modern medicine plays in our lives. So obviously, I'm a fan of modern medicine, right? I'm a medical doctor. But I also have a lot of skepticism about it. I can see firsthand that we pathologize a lot of normal physiologic processes, and I see the way that our healthcare system profits off of this pathology.So this is all to say: Most people do tend to gain weight over time. That's been well-described in the literature. Both men and women gain weight with age, and women tend to gain mid-section weight specifically during the menopausal transition, which seems to be independent of age. So people who go through menopause earlier might see this happen earlier. This weight gain is happening in unique ways that are affected by the hormone changes in the menopausal transition, and I think it can be totally reasonable to want to prevent insulin resistance or prevent metabolic dysfunction in the liver using medications. Or can you decide that you don't want to use medications to do that; diet and exercise also absolutely play a role. But I think it's a deep question. I don't know, what do you think? Virginia, what's your take?VirginiaI think it can be a both/and. If everybody gains weight as we age, and particularly as we go through menopause transition, then we shouldn't be pathologizing that at baseline. Because if everybody does it, then it's a normal fact of having a human body. And why are we making that into something that we're so terrified of?And I think this is what we're going to get more into with these questions: It's also possible to say, can we improve quality of life? Can we extend life? Can we use medicine to help with those things in a way that makes it not about the weight gain, but about managing the symptoms that may or may not be caused by the weight gain? If the weight gain correlates with insulin resistance, of course you're going to treat the insulin resistance, because the insulin resistance is the concern. Does that mean weight loss is the thing we have to do? Not necessarily.MaraTotally. I define size inclusive medicine—which is the way that I practice medicine—as basically not yelling at my patients to lose weight. And it's quite revolutionary, even though it shouldn't be. I typically don't initiate conversations about weight loss with my patients. If my patients have evidence of metabolic dysfunction in the liver, if they have evidence of diabetes or pre-diabetes, if they have high blood pressure, we absolutely tackle those issues. There's good medications and non-medication treatments for those conditions.And if my patients want to talk about weight loss, I'm always willing to engage in those conversations. I do not practice from a framework of refusing to talk with my patients about weight loss because I feel that's not centering my patients' bodily autonomy. So let's talk about these more objective and less stigmatized medical conditions that we can quantify. Let's target those. And weight loss may be a side effect of targeting those. Weight loss may not be a side effect of targeting those. And there are ways to target those conditions that often don't result in dramatic or clinically significant weight loss, and that's okay.One other thing I'll note that it's not totally clear that menopausal weight gain is causing those sort of metabolic dysfunctions. This is a really interesting area of research. Again, I'm not a researcher, but I follow it with interest, because as a size-inclusive doctor, this is important to the way that I practice. So there's some school of thought that the metabolic dysfunction causes the weight gain, rather than the weight gain causing the metabolic dysfunction. And this is important because of the way we blame people for weight gain. We think if you gain weight, you've caused diabetes or whatever. This flips thta narrative on its head. Diabetes is a really complex disease with many, many factors affecting it. It's possible that having a genetic predisposition to cardiometabolic disease may end up causing weight gain, and specifically this visceral adiposity. So this is all to say there's a lot we don't understand. And I think at the core is trying to center my patients values, and de-stigmatize all of these conversations.VirginiaI love how Julie phrased it: “The possible related weight gain in menopause is maybe nothing to fear, dread, or fight.” I think anytime we can approach health without a mindset of fear and dread and not be fighting our bodies, that seems like it's going to be more health promoting than if we're going in like, “Oh my God, this is happening. It's terrible. I have to stop it.”And this is every life stage we go through, especially as women. Our bodies change, and usually our bodies get bigger. And we're always told we have to fight through puberty. You have a baby, you have to get your body back as quickly as possible. I do think there's something really powerful in saying: “I am going through a big life change right now so my body is supposed to change. I can focus on managing the health conditions that might come along with that, and I can also let my body do what it needs to do.” I think we can have both.MaraYeah, that's so beautifully said. And Julie, thank you for saying it that way.VirginiaOkay, so now let's get into some related weight questions.I was just told by my OB/GYN that excess abdominal weight can contribute to urinary incontinence in menopause. How true is this, and how much of a factor do you think weight is in this situation? And I think the you know, the unsaid question in this and in so many of these questions, is, so do I have to lose weight to solve this issue?MaraYes. So this is a very common refrain I hear from patients about the relationship between BMI and sort of different processes in the body, right? I think what the listeners' OB/GYN is getting at is the idea that mass in the abdomen and torso might put pressure on the pelvic floor. And more mass in the torso, more pressure on the pelvic floor.But urinary incontinence is extremely complicated and it can be caused by lots of different things. So I think what the OB/GYN is alluding to is pelvic floor weakness, which is one common cause. The muscles in the pelvic floor, which is all those muscles that basically hold up your uterus, your bladder, your rectum—all of those muscles can get weak over time. But other things can cause urinary incontinence, too. Neurological changes, hormonal changes in menopause, can contribute.Part of my size inclusive approach to primary care is I often ask myself: How would I treat a thin person with this condition? Because we always have other treatment options other than weight loss, and thin people have urinary incontinence all the time.VirginiaA lot of skinny grandmas are buying Depends. No shame!MaraTotally, right? And so we have treatments for urinary incontinence. And urinary incontinence often requires a multifactorial treatment approach.I will often recommend my patients do pelvic floor physical therapy. What that does is strengthen the pelvic floor muscles particularly if the person has been pregnant and had a vaginal delivery, those muscles can really weaken, and people might be having what we call genitourinary symptoms of menopause. Basically, as estrogen declines in the tissue of the vulva, it can make the tissue what we call friable.VirginiaI don't want a friable vulva! All of the language is bad.MaraI know, isn't it? I just get so used to it. And then when I talk to non-medical people, I'm like, whoa. Where did we come up with this term? It just means sort of like irritable.VirginiaOk, I'm fine having an irritable vulva. I'm frequently irritable.MaraAnd so that can cause a sensation of having to pee all the time. And that we can treat with topical estrogen, which is an estrogen cream that goes inside the vagina and is an amazing, underutilized treatment that is extremely low risk. I just prescribe it with glee and abandon to all of my patients, because it can really help with urinary symptoms. It can help with discomfort during sex in the menopausal transition. It is great treatment.VirginiaItchiness, dryness…MaraExactly, yeah! So I was doing a list of causes of urinary incontinence: Another one is overactive bladder, which we often use oral medications to treat. That helps decrease bladder spasticity. So this is all to say that it's multifactorial. It's rare that there's sort of one specific issue. And it is possible that for some people, weight loss might help decrease symptoms. If somebody loses weight in their abdomen, it might put less pressure on the pelvic floor, and that might ease up. But it's not the only treatment. So since we know that weight loss can be really challenging to maintain over time for many, many reasons, I think it's important to offer our patients other treatment options. But I don't want to discount the idea that it's inherently unrelated. It's possible that it's one factor of many that contributes to urinary incontinence.VirginiaThis is, like, the drumbeat I want us to keep coming back to with all these issues. As you said, how would I treat this in a thin person? It is much easier to start using an estrogen cream—like you said, low risk, easy to use—and see if that helps, before you put yourself through some draconian diet plan to try to lose weight.So for the doctor to start from this place of, “well, you've got excess abdominal fat, and that's why you're having this problem,” that's such a shaming place to start when that's very unlikely to be the full story or the full solution.MaraTotally. And pelvic PT is also underutilized and amazing. Everyone should get it after childbirth, but many people who've never had children might benefit from it, too.VirginiaOkay, another weight related question. This is from Ellen, who wrote in our thread in response to Julie's question. So in related to Julie's question about the role of declining estrogen in gaining abdominal fat:If that's the case, why does hormone replacement therapy not mitigate that weight gain? I take estrogen largely to support my bone health due to having a genetic disorder leading to fragile bones, but to be honest I had hoped that the estrogen would also help address the weight I've put on over the past five years despite stable eating and exercise habits. That hasn't happened, and I understand that it generally doesn't happen with HRT, but I don't understand why. I guess I'd just like to understand better why we tend to gain abdominal fat in menopause and what if anything can help mitigate that weight gain. I'm working on self acceptance for the body I have now, and I get frustrated when clothes I love no longer fit, or when my doctor tells me one minute to watch portion sizes to avoid weight gain, and the next tells me to ingest 1000 milligrams of calcium per day, which would account for about half of the calories I'm supposed to eat daily in order to lose weight or not gain more weight. It just feels like a lot of competing messages! Eat more protein and calcium, but have a calorie deficit. And it's all about your changing hormones, but hormone replacement therapy won't change anything.Ellen, relatable. So many mixed messages. Dr. Mara, you spoke to what we do and don't know about the abdominal fat piece a little bit already in Julie's question, so I think we can set that aside. But yes, if estrogen is playing a role, why does hormone replacement therapy not necessarily impact weight? And what do we do with the protein of it all? Because, let me tell you, we got like 50 other questions about protein.MaraI will answer the first part first: I don't think we know why menopausal hormone therapy does not affect abdominal fat. You're totally right. It makes intuitive sense, but that's not what we see clinically. There's some evidence that menopausal hormone therapy can decrease the rate of muscle mass loss. But we consider it a weight neutral treatment. Lots of researchers are studying these questions. But I don't think anybody knows.So those messages feel like they're competing because they are competing. And I don't think we understand why all these things go on in the human body and how to approach them. So maybe I'll turn the question back to you, Virginia. How do you think about it when you are seeking expertise and you get not a clear answer?VirginiaI mean, I'm an irritable vulva when it happens, that's for sure. My vulva and I are very irritated by conflicting messages. And I think we're right to be. I think Ellen is articulating a real frustration point.The other thing Ellen is articulating is how vulnerable we are in these moments. Because, as she's saying, she's working on self-acceptance for the body she has. And I think a lot of us are like, “We don't want weight loss to be the prescription. We don't want to feel pressured to go in that direction.” And then the doctor comes in and says, “1000 milligrams of calcium a day, an infinity number of protein grams a day. Also lose weight.” And then you do find yourself on that roller coaster or hamster wheel—choose your metaphor. Again, because we're so programmed to think “well, the only option I have is to try to control my weight, control my weight, control my weight.” And you get back in that space.What I usually try to do is phone a friend, have a plan to step myself out of that. Whether it's texting my best friend or texting Corinne, so they can be that voice of reason. And I would do this for them, too! You need help remembering: You don't want to pursue intentional weight loss. You're doing all this work on self-acceptance. Dieting is not going to be helpful. So what can you take from this advice that does feel doable and useful? And maybe it's not 1000 milligrams of calcium a day, but maybe it's like, a little more yogurt in your week. Is there a way you can translate this to your life that feels manageable? I think it's what you do a great job of. But I think in general, doctors don't do a great job with that part.MaraYeah, I bet you Ellen's doctor had 15 minutes with her. And was like, “Well, eat all this calcium and definitely try to lose weight,” right? And then was rushing out the door because she has 30 other patients to see that day.I think doctors are trying to offer what maybe they think patients want to hear, which is certainty and one correct answer. And it can feel hard to find the space to sort of sit in the uncertainty of medicine and health and the uncertainty of like our bodies. And corporate medicine is not conducive to that, let's put it that way.VirginiaBut so how much protein do we need to be eating?MaraI have no idea. Virginia, I don't think anybody knows. I think exercise is good for you. It's not good for every single body at every single moment in time. If you just broke your foot, running is not a healthy activity, right? If you're recovering from a disordered relationship with exercise, it's not healthy.But, movement in general prolongs our health span. And I'm reluctant to even say this, but, the Mediterranean diet—I hate even calling it a diet, right? But vegetables, protein—I don't even want to call them healthy fats, it's just so ambiguous what that means. But olive oil. All those things seem to be good for you. With the caveat that it's really hard to study the effects of diet. And this is general diet, not meaning a restrictive diet, but your diet over time. But I don't think we know how much, how much protein one needs to eat. It is unknowable.VirginiaAnd that's why, I think what we've been saying about figure out how to translate this into something that feels doable in your life. It's not like, Oh, olive oil forever. Never butter again. MaraOf course not. I love butter. Oh, my God. Extra butter!VirginiaRight. Butter is core to the Burnt Toast philosophy. I know you wouldn't be coming here with an anti-butter agenda.MaraOh, of course not. Kerry Gold forever.VirginiaBut it's, how can you take this and think about what makes sense in your life and would add value and not feel restrictive? And that's hard to do that when you're feeling vulnerable and worried and menopause feels like this big, scary unknown. But you still have the right to do that, because it's still your body.MaraBeautifully said.ButterVirginiaWell, this has all been incredibly helpful. Let's chat about things that are bringing us joy. Dr Mara, do you have some Butter for us? MaraI had to think about this a lot. The Butter question is obviously the most important question of the whole conversation.We have been in a heat wave in Philly, where I live, and it's really, really hot, and we have a public pool that is four blocks from our house. Philly actually has tons of public pools. Don't quote me on this, but I've heard through the grapevine—I have not fact-checked this—that it is one of the highest per capita free public pools in the country. I don't know where I heard that from. I know I should probably look that up, but anyway, we've got a lot of pools in Philly. And there's one four blocks from my house.So I used to think of pool time as a full day, like a Saturday activity. Like you bring snacks, you bring a book, you lounge for hours. But our city pool is very bare bones. There's no shade. And so, I have come to approach it as an after work palate cleanser. We rush there after I get my kid from daycare, and just pop in, pop out. It's so nice. And pools are so democratic. Everybody is there cooling off. There's no body shame. I mean, I feel like it's actually been quite freeing for my experience of a body shame in a bathing suit, because there's no opportunity to even contemplate it. Like you have to hustle in there to get there before it closes. There's no place to put your stuff. So you can't do all those body shielding techniques. You have to leave your stuff outside of the pool. So you have to go in in a bathing suit. And it's just like, all shapes and sizes there. I love it. So public pools are my Butter.VirginiaWe don't have a good public pool in my area, and I wish we did. I'm so jealous. That's magical. Since we're talking about being in midlife, I'm going to recommend the memoir, Actress of a Certain Age: My Twenty-Year Trail to Overnight Success by Jeff Hiller, which I just listened to on audiobook. Definitely listen to it on audiobook. Obviously, Jeff Hiller is a man and not in menopause, but he is in his late 40s, possibly turned 50. He's an actress of a certain age, as he says. If you watched “Somebody Somewhere” with Bridget Everett, he plays her best friend Joel. And the show was wonderful. Everyone needs to watch that.But Jeff Hiller is someone who had his big breakout role on an HBO show at the age of, like, 47 or something. And so it's his memoir of growing up as a closeted gay kid in Texas, in the church, and then moving to New York and pursuing acting and all that. It's hilarious. It's really moving. It made me teary several times. He is a beautiful writer, and it just makes you realize the potential of this life stage. And one of his frequent refrains in the book, and it's a quote from Bridget Everett, is Dreams Don't have Deadlines, and realizing what potential there is in the second half of our lives, or however you want to define it. Oh my gosh, I loved it so much. There's also a great, great interview with Jeff on Sam Sanders podcast that I'll link to as well. That's just like a great entry point, and it will definitely make you want to go listen to the whole book.MaraI love it.I will briefly say one thing I've been thinking about during this whole conversation is a piece by the amazing Anne Helen Petersen who writes Culture Study, which is one of my favorites of course, in addition to Burnt Toast. She wrote a piece about going through the portal. That was what she calls it. And she writes about how she's talking with her mom, I think, who says, “Oh, you're starting to portal!” to Anne. And I just love it.What she's getting at is this sort of surge of creativity and self confidence and self actualization that happens in midlife for women in particular. And I just love that image. Whenever I think of doing something that would have scared me a few years ago, or acting confident, appropriately confident in situations. I'm like, I'm going into the portal. I just, I love it, it's so powerful, and I think about it all the time.VirginiaWell, thank you so much for doing this. This was really wonderful. Tell folks where they can find you and how we can support your work.MaraThank you so much, Virginia. I'm such a fan of your work. It has been so meaningful, meaningful to me, both personally and professionally. So it's such an honor to be here again. You can find me on Substack. I write Your Doctor Friend by Mara Gordon . And I'm on Instagram at Mara Gordon MD, too. And you can find a lot of my writing on NPR as well. And I'm writing a book called, tentatively, How to Take Up Space, and it's about body shame and health care and the pursuit of health and wellness. So lots of issues like we touched on today, and hopefully that will be coming into the world in a couple of years. But yeah, thanks so much for having me, Virginia.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

You're listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Cole Kazdin.Cole is an Emmy Award-winning television journalist and author of What's Eating Us: Women, Food, and the Epidemic of Body Anxiety. Cole came on Burnt Toast about two years ago to talk about What's Eating Us when it first came out—and the way the eating disorder industrial complex leaves so many folks struggling to find durable recovery.Today, Cole is joining us again as an eating disorder expert, but also as a fellow woman in perimenopause… who is reeling right now from all the diet culture nonsense coming for us in this stage of life.Our goal today is to call out the anti-fatness, ageism and diet culture running rampant in peri/menopause-adjacent media. I know a lot of you have more specific questions about menopause (like how much protein DO we need?). Part 2 of the Burnt Toast Menopause Conversation will be coming in a few weeks with Mara Gordon, MD joining us to tackle those topics. So drop your questions in the comments for Dr. Mara! This episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can't do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you'll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today's conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack's Notes, so that's a super easy, free way to support the show!Episode 199VirginiaSo, Cole, you are back because you emailed me to say: Is all of menopause a diet? What are we doing? By which I mean menopause and perimenopause—we're going to kind of lump them together everyone. They are distinct life stages. But in terms of the cultural discourse, they're very much hooked together.You emailed and said:Look, I'm not a menopause expert, but I am an eating disorder expert and I'm seeing a lot of stuff that I don't like. How do we take a skeptical but informed eye about the messaging we get as we age? How do we get through this without developing an eating disorder as we are in the full witch phase of our lives?So, let's just start by getting a lay of the land. What are our first impressions as women newly arriving in perimenopause?ColeThere's something that is so exciting about all the books that are out and the research that's emerging, from actual OB/GYNs to the existence of the Menopause Society to Naomi Watts wrote a book about menopause. I think we're the first real generation to have menopause information and conversations.When I asked my mom about her perimenopause and menopause she doesn't really remember it. So I think I really want to preface this by saying how valuable this is. When I sat down to start looking at the available information and read these books, I was stunned by some of the symptoms that I've never heard of—tinnitus, joint pain, right? Things that aren't just hot flashes, which I think are the standard menopause symptoms that we tend to hear about.VirginiaThere are a lot. It's like, everything that could be happening to your body.ColeAnd then very quickly… there's a sharp left turn to intermittent fasting. VirginiaYes. It's like, wait, what? I want to know about my joint pain? What are we doing?ColeAnd it felt to me, like some sort of betrayal. Because you get on the train of “we're going to learn about something that's happening to our bodies that no one's ever really talked about or paid attention to before.” And, then it's oh wait, I have to track my protein. What just happened? I'm having so much trouble with that clash of gratitude and absolute hunger—pun intended, sorry, there's no other word—for the information and research. And then being told, “But no hunger!”VirginiaI mean, this is always the story with women's health, right? Women's health is so ignored and forgotten by the mainstream—the media, the medical system—so we are left to put it together on our own.And of course, we have a proud tradition of centuries of midwives teaching women about our bodies. It's the Our Bodies, Ourselves legacy. There's all this wisdom that women figure out about how our bodies work, what we need to know to take care of ourselves. But because it's being ignored by scientific research, it's being ignored by the mainstream, and it is this sort of an underground thing—that also opens up a really clear market for diet culture.So it's really easy to find an influencer—and they may even be a doctor or have some other credentials attached to their name—who you feel like, “Oh, she's voicing something that I am feeling. I'm being ignored by my regular doctor and here's this person on Tiktok who really seems to get it,” …and then also wants to sell me a supplement line. It's so quick to go to this place of it's just another Goop, basically.ColeAnd what if it didn't go there? What does the world look like where it doesn't go there? I am really hyper conscious of my own vulnerabilities—even though I feel very, very, very, very solid in my eating disorder recovery. I don't go there anymore. I know there are vulnerabilities there, because I struggled on and off with eating disorders for decades. But, I really feel solid in my recovery. And then I wonder if I should start tracking my protein? I was shocked to even hear that in my own head, and then to hear my very sophisticated turn of “well, you're not looking at calories, you're not trying to get smaller, you're done with that for real for real. But you should probably start looking at how much protein you're getting!” Wait a minute, stop!VirginiaWhere's that coming from?ColeI'm fortunate enough that because of my background and because I wrote a book on this, I can reach out to top eating disorder researchers in the country, and just ask a question. Isn't this kind of funny that I did this? Isn't that interesting? What do you think? And to be met with: Do not go near tracking apps! That is not safe for you. DO NOT track your protein. It's not funny. I did that last night. I just reached out to one of the top eating disorder experts in the country, because this is something we don't talk about. But I think with something like intermittent fasting, which we hear about in all aspects of wellness diet culture, we have to remember that intermittent fasting is extreme food restriction. Our bodies panic when we fast. But these can set us on roads towards very disordered relationships with food in our bodies. And the worst case is developing an eating disorder.VirginiaRight, or living with a subclinical eating disorder that makes you miserable, even if no one ever says, yes, you have a diagnosis.ColeAbsolutely. Thinking about protein every day is stressful and just being consumed with this idea of what we're eating and how much we're eating and what we need to be doing. And the fear of the consequences, right? If I don't track my protein, I'm going to break a hip, right? I mean, I'm condensing the messaging. But if you follow the steps, that's kind of where it goes.VirginiaWell, and I don't think it's even just “I'm going to break a hip.” I think it's “I'm going to become old and vulnerable and undesirable.” The hip is symbolic of this cultural narrative about older women's bodies, which is that you are going to become disposable and irrelevant. And the fear that's stoking us, that's making us hungry for the information—which is valid, it is a mysterious phase of life that we don't know enough about. But there's this fear of of irrelevancy and and not being attractive, and all of that. You can't tease that out from “I'm worried about my bone density.” It's all layered in there.ColeAnd my own OB/GYN told me at our last visit—she offers a separate let's have a talk about perimenopause appointment, which I think is great. It's essentially about hormone replacement therapy and when and if that might be part of your journey. But she told me that most people who don't have some immediate symptom like hot flashes are coming to her in perimenopause because of weight gain or redistribution of weight, which is very normal during this phase of life. And they are asking if hormone replacement therapy could “fix” that issue.So it's the post-baby body thing all over again. As if there's a return to something, as opposed to a forward movement. But the fact that that's an entry point for a lot of these menopause physicians that write books and have a presence on social media. It's very, very connected to an audience that is looking for weight loss.VirginiaI think there is something about any mysterious health situation—whether it's perimenopause, or I see a similar narrative happen around diabetes often—where the condition gets held out as this worst case scenario that's so so bad that therefore any concerns you had about is it disordered to diet? Is it risky for me to count protein? All of that kind of goes out the window because we get laser focused and we have to solve this thing. You no longer get to have feelings about how pursuing weight loss can be damaging for you. This physical health thing trumps all the emotions.ColeIt's a medical issue now.VirginiaRight! I'm at sea in this whole new complicated medical landscape of menopause. I don't know what it is, so obviously, whatever I used to feel about needing to accept my body no longer applies. I don't get to do that anymore. I have to just like, drill in and get serious about this.I've had older women say this to me. Like, “you can be body positive in your 30s or early 40s, but get over 50, sweetheart, and you're not going to be able to do that anymore.” But why not? That should be available to us throughout our lives. So that frustrates me. Because simultaneously, we have no good information, we have no good science about what's happening to us. And yet menopause weight loss is given this gravitas. You can't argue with it, and you have to just be okay eating less for the rest of your life now.ColeMaybe this is where body liberation is in one of its most critical stages? To develop it here in this phase of life. Because I think what complicates it further, and I will give people the benefit of the doubt that it is not nefarious when the messaging is also married to we're not trying to get smaller, we're trying to get stronger. But here's also how to get rid of belly fat. And that I find genuinely confusing, I think, oh good, you're not talking about weight loss. Oh, wait, you are talking about weight loss. But is being stronger now a proxy for weight loss? You're telling people not to diet.We see this in other arenas, and I even wonder, gee, now that these weight loss drugs are so ubiquitous, is menopause, the next frontier of of health and weight being conflated? And it's such a letdown. I mean, I know that sounds so simple it's just so disappointing. It's so disappointing.VirginiaYou called it the Full Witch Phase. This should be a stage of our life that's more free than ever before, right? We're not 20-somethings trying to find a man to be a baby daddy, we're through with that pressure.ColeNo this is the taking pottery lessons, stranger sex, no pregnancy phase! Maybe, I don't know. For some people.VirginiaIt seems like it should be!ColeIt could be.VirginiaAnd yet, here is all this body stuff/weight stuff coming in.And women go through this at every stage of our life. I'm watching my my middle schooler in puberty, where weight gain is absolutely normal and what we want their bodies to be doing. Reproductive years, childbirth, weight gain—this is a part of having a body with a uterus is that you are going to go through phases where it is normal for your body to get bigger. And in every one of these stages, we're told it's terrible and you should avoid it at all costs. That said, I do feel like in some of the other arenas, like around pregnancy, there's a lot of pressure on women to get their bodies back after they have babies. But you can find a counter-narrative that's saying, no, I don't have to erase the evidence that I had a child. My body can be different now, I'm going to embrace that. There are those of us out there saying that.But I don't see that counter-narrative around menopause. I don't see women saying, “Yep, you're going to have a bigger stomach in menopause. It makes sense because of the estrogen drop off.” This is why bodies change in menopause. Let's just embrace it. Instead, it feels like this, of all the weight gains, you must fight this one the most. And I don't understand. I mean, again, I think there's a link to ageism there. But what else do you think is going on there?ColeI mean, it's ageism, it's ableism, it's beauty standards. It's all the things. It's how we're valued as women. I want to dive deeper in this to see the fat menopause doctors. I would like to find some of those. I don't know.VirginiaListeners, if you know some, drop them in the comments please. We want to talk to the fat menopuase doctors! ColeTo just see people that look different from some of these “classic doctors”e we see on Instagram and Tiktok, to just talk about what do we really have to think about during menopause? We know that the drop in estrogen affects from the brain, affects everything in our bodies, and how we don't want to lose sight of that because we're trying to get rid of belly fat either.VirginiaRight, right? I think of Jessica Slice, who I had the on the podcast recently, talking about differentiating between alleviating suffering and trying to “fix” your body. Or caring for your body instead of trying to force it into an ideal. We're not saying that this isn't a time of life where women need extra support, where our bodies need extra care. That makes sense to me. My face does this weird flushing thing now it never used to do. I just suddenly get blotchy for like, 20 minutes and feel really hot. But only in my face. It's not even a hot flash. So there are all these wild things our bodies are doing that we deserve to have information about, and we deserve to have strategies to manage them. I mean, the face blotchy thing is not really impacting my quality of life. But there are a lot that do. The night sweats are terrible. I want strategies to alleviate that suffering. And it just seems like what a disservice we do when all of the advice is filtered through weight loss instead of actually focusing on the symptoms that are causing distress.ColeYes, yes. And is it boring to talk about weight fluctuation? Because I find it interesting that weight fluctuation is so deeply correlated with so many health problems. There has been research on this for years. That's why I ask if it's boring, because we know this, and we don't talk about it nearly enough, but we know this. The research is so, so so deeply there. It's correlated with chronic illnesses. And who among us hasn't in their history had weight fluctuation? With our diets or whatever our behaviors are. And so what is weight fluctuation going to do in menopause? I doubt that's being studied.I was looking at weight fluctuation and fertility when I was researching my book, and there aren't those studies, because fertility studies are much shorter term, and weight fluctuation studies are longer term. So never do they meet.But could weight fluctuation impact negatively our menopause experience? It would make perfect sense if that if that were the case.VirginiaYes. This maybe isn't a stage of life wher you want to be weight cycling and going up and down, and deliberately pursuing going down, because there might be cost to it. I mean, we do know that higher body weight is really protective against osteoporosis, for example. If you're concerned about breaking a hip, pursuing weight loss, I would argue, is counter to that goal for a lot of us. Researchers call this the obesity paradox, which is an extremely anti-fat, terrible term. But we know that folks in bigger bodies have lower mortality rates, that they survive things like cancer treatments and heart surgery with better outcomes.So as we're thinking of our aging years, where we're all going to be dealing with some type of chronic condition or other, some type of cancer, heart stuff, like this is what's going to happen right. Then pursuing thinness at any cost is not actually going to be the prescription for that. There's a good reason to hold onto your body fat.ColeAnd I come back to the stress piece of this, which I don't think can be overstated. Stress is so detrimental to our health, and this preoccupation with food, body exercise, tracking apps, all of that really does elevate our stress. And I think we're so used to it. It's invisible in so many ways because it's bundled in with so many other stressors in our lives. Eliminating the stressor of what am I eating? Am I getting enough fiber? All of that is really, really can be a crucial piece of having a better experience in our bodies and of our health. It's that Atkins echo over and over and over again, which I thought we had decided already we were done with. But it's those two triggers, the protein, resistance training, lifting.I think it comes back to, you can control your behaviors. You can't control your weight. And if weight is ever going to be some sort of goal, you're really setting yourself up for stress, health problems, and again, at worst, an eating disorder.VirginiaAbsolutely. And we should caveat here: I personally love lifting weights. It's my favorite kind of workout. If these things bring you joy, keep doing that. We're not saying nobody should lift weights or nobody should eat protein. I just feel like I have to slip that in because people get frustrated.ColeNo, I think that's important, and I am the same as you. I love lifting weights, and for me, it has actually been an antidote to a lot of the compulsive cardio I did when I had an eating disorder. There's something about lifting weights that is so grounding. Every month or so, I go to this this guy—he does training in his garage—and we lift weights. And I told him before our first session, look, I'm recovering anorexic, I'm perimenopausal. I'm not here to have language like “tone up” and all of that. I do not want to do it. I want to lift something heavy and put it down. That's what I'm here for. I was a little aggressive.VirginiaI mean, you have to put the boundary, though, you really do.ColeBut to his credit, he has respected that. And we lift heavy shit and put it down, and it is so so good for me. In repairing my relationship with exercise, which for me was one of the biggest challenges in recovery. So when someone says, lift weights, I'm here for that, because I really enjoy that. But I agree with you. I think it's so important that we go with our ability and something we enjoy.VirginiaThe main reason I lift weights is because I do a lot of gardening, and I have to be able to lift a heavy bag of soil or a pot or dig big holes and do these things.We need to remember that these things, eating protein, lifting weight, it's supposed to support you living the life you want to live. It's not a gold star you need to get every day to be valuable as a person. I can tell weightlifting all winter is really helping me garden this year. That's what I did it for. So you can recognize the value that these things have in your life—I'm less cranky if I eat protein at breakfast. I make it through my work morning better. And not be measuring our success by whether or not we're doing those things and like, how we're doing them and counting how much we're doing them every day.ColeWell, that is key. I mean, first of all, I will say there are a few things more gratifying than hauling a 40 pound bag of cat litter up the stairs to my second floor apartment. I feel like I need some sort of like, are people watching me? Am I getting a medal for this? Even if no one is.VirginiaI totally agree.ColeIt is exciting, me, alone with myself, walking up the stairs with that, and it's not that hard. I get excited. I lift weights so I can carry this bag of cat litter. I mean, it's more complex than that, but that is a very significant percentage of why I lift weights.VirginiaBecause that impacts your daily functioning and happiness.ColeAnd I think with eating, I find I'm in a better mood when I'm carbing it out. You know what I mean? I'm sure protein is great. And I have some. I do all the things, whatever. And everyone's body is different. Everyone responds differently. But some people will say, oh, when I have salmon, I just feel fantastic or something. I don't know. VirginiaHave they tried pasta? Do they not know about pasta?ColeFor me, I feel better when I eat—it almost doesn't matter what it is. And if I don't eat, then I have low energy and brain fog and don't feel good. VirginiaAnd again, it's because of the fear mongering around the stage of life. It's because of this you're now in this murky waters where everything could go wrong with your body at any moment type of thing. I mean, this is what diet culture teaches us. Control what you can control. Okay, well, probably I can't control what's happening to my hip bones, but we think we should be able to control how we how we exercise and losing weight. The fact is, your day to day context is going to change. Having arbitrary standards you have to hold yourself to because of vague future health threat stuff is unhelpful when you may have a week where you don't have time to make all the salmon and you have to just be okay with eating takeout. There's no grace for just being a person with a lot else going on. And every woman in perimenopause and menopause is a person with a lot going on.All right, we are going chat a little bit about one of the folks that we see on the socials talking about menopause relentlessly —Dr. Mary Claire Haver.ColeShe wrote the book The New Menopause, which is a really great, significant book in many ways in terms of providing information that has never been provided before. VirginiaOh yes, this is @drmaryclaire.ColeWhen I bought her book, I saw that she has also written The Galveston Diet, and I said to myself, hmm. And then bought the book anyway. And you know now it all makes sense. Because The Galveston Diet is is very geared towards the perimenopausal, menopausal lose belly fat, but also have more energy help your menopause symptoms, right? How can you knock that? Come on.And so it's very sort of interwoven with all the diet stuff. So it's not surprising that she would bring so much of that up in her menopause book and a lot on her Instagram. She wears a weighted vest all the time. I thought, “Should I get a weighted vest?” And I again, I wasn't sure if I was doing it for menopause diet culture reasons, or I just love to lift heavy things reasons. I thought, “That could be cool. Maybe that'll be fun. I'll just wear a weighted vest around the house, like this woman, who's the menopause authority.”I guess what's coming across in this interview is how vulnerable I am to any advertising!VirginiaNo, it's relatable. We all are vulnerable! I mean, I'm looking at her Instagram right now and I'm simultaneously exhausted at the prospect of wearing a weighted vest around my house and, like…well…ColeWouldn't that be convenient? But let me save you a minute here, because when you go to whatever your favorite website is to buy weighted vests, and you look at the reviews, it's split between people saying, “This is the best weighted vest [insert weighted vest brand here],” and other people saying, “Gee, the petroleum smell hasn't gone away after two months.”VirginiaOkay. I can't be walking around my house smelling petroleum. No, thank you.ColeBecause they're filled with sand that comes from who knows where, and the petroleum smell doesn't go away. And according to some reviews I read—because I did go down the rabbit hole with this—it actually increases if you sweat. So I thought, You know what, I can do this in other ways.VirginiaI'm sure there are folks for whom the weighted vest is a revelation. And, it's a very diet culture thing to need to be alway optimizing an activity. You can't just go for a walk. You need to be walking with a weighted vest or with weighted ankles. Why do we need to add this added layer of doing the most to everything?And I'm looking at a reel now where she talks about the supplements she's taking. Dr. Mary Claire is taking a lot of supplements.ColeSo many supplements! VirginiaVitamin D, K, omega threes, fiber, creatine, collagen, probiotic… That's a lot to be taking every day. That's a really expensive way to manage your health. Supplements are not covered by insurance. There's a lot of privilege involved in who can pursue gold standard healthy menopause lifestyle habits.ColeAnd it's always great to ask the question, who's getting rich off of the thing that I'm supposed to be doing for my health? Because it's never you.VirginiaYes. She keeps referencing the same brand — Pause.Cole It's hers. It's her brand.VirginiaOh there you go. So, yeah, taking advice from someone with a supplement line, I think, is really complicated. This is why it's so difficult to find a dermatologist as well. Any medical professional who's selling their own product line has gone into a gray area between medical ethics and capitalism that is very difficult to steer through.ColeAnd even in the most, let's say, the most noblest, pure intentions, it still creates that doubt, I think, with patients.VirginiaI'm interested to see some “body positive” rhetoric coming in. There's a reel I'm looking at from May, where she's talking about, “When you were 12, you wanted to be smaller…” The message is, as you get older, you're constantly realizing that the body you once had was the perfect body.And so she's arguing that we shouldn't this pursuit of thinness can leave us more fragile, more frail and less resilient as we age. Instead of chasing someone else's standard, celebrate the strength, power and uniqueness of you. “Because your body's worth isn't measured in dress sizes. It's measured in the life it lets you live.” Which is kind of what we've been saying. And this is from a woman who sells a diet plan, so I don't know how to square that.ColeThat's what I'm struggling with, with this whole menopause thing! Because when someone starts selling me supplements, or talking about weight loss, talking about tracking your protein, I no longer trust them. And yet, it's not so black or white, because there's a lot good information too. She's helping a lot of people, myself included, with the information about menopause symptoms and the history of research or lack thereof, on this. It's really valuable, and it is hard to square that with the other part.VirginiaIt says to me that these people are choosing profit. I mean, maybe this isn't the piece she believes the most. Maybe she cares more about getting the information about menopause out there, and cares more about correcting those imbalances—but she's also comfortable profiting off this piece. And that's something that you just have to hold together. And I mean, listeners have been asking me to do a menopause episode for like, months and months. And the reason I keep not doing it, and the reason, when you emailed, I was like, Oh, good, there's finally a way to do this, is I can't find an expert who is a menopause and perimenopause expert who is not pushing weight loss in a way that I am uncomfortable with. There certainly isn't a social media influencer person doing it. I mean, my own midwife is great and extremely weight neutral. I hope people are finding, individually, providers who are really helpful. But the discourse really is centering around “you're in this terrifying stage of life you have to fight looking older at every turn,” and that includes pursuing thinness now more than ever.ColeAnd: Don't worry, we'll fix this belly fat thing.It's so difficult to find providers who can talk about menopause, period. I have friends who went through menopause early and they were given every test in the world except a conversation about menopause, and found out after thousands of dollars and spinal taps and and really big procedures, that it was early menopause. So it's so difficult to find a provider who is educated in menopause and can talk with you about it in a constructive way. So that's the first step.Then to be so audacious as to hope for a provider who will then be weight inclusive. Maybe we're not there yet.VirginiaWe're really reaching for the stars.I hate to end on a depressing note, but I do think that's where we are. I think it is hopefully helpful that we're just voicing that and voicing this tension, that we're seeing this disconnect, that we're seeing in this conversation, that there needs to be better better information. That we need menopause voices who are not selling us things and pushing weight loss.But yeah, this is, this is where we are. So I appreciate you talking with me.ColeMe too, and the answer to menopause is not weight loss.VirginiaIt really does not seem like it should ever have to be. It really is never the answer.ColeIsn't the whole point caftans??VirginiaCan we please get to the caftan stage? I've been training my whole life to be in my caftan era. It's all I want.ButterVirginia Well, speaking of caftans and things that make us delighted, Cole, do you have any Butter for us this week?ColeI do. My Butter is very specific. It's my friend Catherine's swimming pool. A good friend of mine from New York is now here in Los Angeles, where I live, helping to take care of her mother. And they have a lovely house with a heated swimming pool in the midst of a garden. I've never had the opportunity to be a garden person because of where I have lived. I would love the chance one day.VirginiaIn your Full Witch era!ColeIn my Full Witch era. Lavender and roses around the swimming pool. It's kind of like a three or four hour vacation. I went there the other day. I brought my son. He was absolutely delighted to be out of our two bedroom apartment. So my Butter is my goal. My summer goals is more of my friend Catherine's pool. And whatever that is for anyone else, I wish that for them, too.VirginiaYes, I love this Butter. I am going to double your Butter, because we have a small pool that I love. It's not a full-size swimming pool. It's called a plunge pool, but it's big enough for a couple of us, to get in. And it's in my garden, which is a magical combination. And the thing about being having pool privilege—which I own. I have a pool, so I have pool privilege—the thing about pool privilege is your kids will then disgust you, because they will stop caring that the pool is there.It's just like everyone gets a backyard swing set. It becomes window dressing. They don't see it. They're like, “I don't need to go in the pool. I don't want to go in the pool.” And you're just like, do you not know how privileged you are? Do you not know how lucky you are that we have a pool? But I realized last night the trick to it. We were having dinner on the back patio, and I wanted them to go swimming after dinner, because I'm trying to wear out my kids. And they didn't want to go in. And then I was like, “Well, what if you went in with your clothes on?” And they were like, oh my god, this is the best ever. I just let them jump right in. And then I went and put a swimsuit on, because that is not my journey.Then we hung out in the pool, and once I get them in there, we have the best conversations. Pools, being in any water, is such a nice way to bond with your kids, because you can't really be on your phone. Something about the water, it just puts everyone in a good mood.But yeah, for anyone else with pool privilege and annoying children, just let them go in with their clothes on. It's fine. You're going to be dealing with wet clothes anyway afterwards.ColeThat is such a constructive menopause tip.VirginiaTrue. The reason I wanted to go in the pool is because I was freaking hot. And I could have gone in without them, but I was trying to be a fun mom, you know? Trying to have a magical moment, damn it.Well, Cole, this was wonderful. Tell folks where we can follow you, how we can support your work, where we send our vents about our menopause symptoms.ColeI'm on Instagram and have been kind of quiet on Instagram lately, but I'll get loud if we talk about menopause.VirginiaAll right, all right. I'm here for it. Thank you so much for doing this. This was really delightful.ColeThank you so much. So good to talk.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Dr. Mara Gordon is a writer and primary care physician for Cooper University Healthcare in Camden, NJ. Listen to Mara discuss her motivations for writing about healthcare, ways to create change in our healthcare system and the rationale for size-inclusive medicine. Check out Dr. Gordon's work here: https://sites.google.com/view/mara-gordon/

Welcome back to Part Two of our series, the Economics of Weight Loss Drugs. (If you haven't heard Part One, listen here!) Today, we're picking back up where we left off in our conversation with Lili Zarghami, a writer who got on (then off) a weight loss drug. Then we'll talk with Dr. Mara Gordon, a weight-neutral physician who deals with GLP-1s. Finally, I'll share my final thoughts and analysis on where the world of GLP-1 agonists is all headed and what it says about health, wealth, stigma, and class. Transcripts, show notes, production credits, and more can be found at: https://moneywithkatie.com/diet-culture. Money with Katie's mission is to be the intersection where the economic, cultural, and political meet the tactical, practical, personal finance education everyone needs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The first 45 minutes of this conversation are FREE! Listen to the extended version of this episode when you subscribe to Patreon here. Dr. Mara Gordon joins the pod to share what it means to be a size-inclusive physician and why it's time to rethink weight in medicine. We discuss why it's harmful to center medical care on a patient's weight, the stigma and negative health consequences of medical providers prescribing intentional weight loss, how to advocate for yourself with your physician, declining to be weighed at the doctor's, why BMI is so problematic, caring for and treating diagnoses without weight loss, and her thoughts on the GLP-1 hype. Mara also opens up about what she regrets as a physician prior to finding fat-positive medicine, and how she came to see the harms of anti-fat bias and diet culture more broadly.  In the EXTENDED version (a bonus episode that you can find at www.patreon.com/fullplate), Mara answers questions about: her concerns about GLP-1s like Ozempic, and what we can do to think about them differently how larger bodied humans can advocate for themselves at the doctor's office without giving the unwritten message that they're “noncompliant” or don't care about their health how to deal with being told weight loss will help a specific health condition (like diabetes, joint pain, sleep apnea) why folks in larger bodies need to receive the same treatments offered to thin-bodied folks how “obesity” as a pathological condition has its roots in the pharmaceutical industry, and it started in the 90s   More about Dr. Mara Gordon: Dr. Gordon is a family physician and writer based in Philadelphia. She worked in public health in Tanzania and Malawi before returning to the Philadelphia area to attend medical school at the Perelman School of Medicine at the  University of Pennsylvania, where she was awarded the Zervanos Family Medicine Award for a medical student going into family medicine. She cares for patients of all ages at the Cooper Family Medicine office at the Kroc Center in Camden. She loves working with medical students in preclinical and clinical educational settings. She teaches selectives in Narrative Medicine and Audio Storytelling and co-directs the Narrative Medicine Scholarly Concentration. She continues to write professionally about issues in contemporary medicine. Learn more about her here.    Check out Medical Students for Size Inclusivity here.  You can read more of Mara's work here: maragordonmd.com Here's more about AWSIM: www.weightinclusivemedicine.org Support the show on Patreon: Enjoying this podcast? Please support the show on Patreon for bonus episodes, community engagement, and access to "Ask Abbie" at Patreon.com/fullplate Join the Full Plate Patreon right here! Group program: Good news! Enrollment is open for Abbie's next group program: Looking for more support and concrete steps to take to heal your relationship with food and your body? Apply for Abbie's next 10-week group program: https://www.abbieattwoodwellness.com/group-coaching Group membership: Already been at this anti-diet culture thing for a while, but want community and continued learning? Apply for Abbie's monthly membership: https://www.abbieattwoodwellness.com/circle-monthly-group Social media: Find the show on Instagram: @fullplate.podcast Find Abbie on Instagram: @abbieattwoodwellness Podcast Cover Photography by Anya McInroy Podcast Administrative Support by Alexis Eades Podcast Editing by Brian Walters This podcast is ad-free and support comes from our Patrons on Patreon: Patreon.com/fullplate

Tweetable Quotes "It's pretty rare to find a doctor who practices from a weight-inclusive perspective." - Rachelle Heinemann   "Obesity stigma is extremely common in healthcare settings. People with larger bodies like consistently in research study after research study say, that healthcare settings are some of the most stigmatizing places that they go." - Dr. Mara Gordon   “Even the American Medical Association has said that clinicians shouldn't be using BMI to really be making decisions about their individual patients.” - Dr. Mara Gordon   "My approach as a size-inclusive doctor is basically like I let the patient initiate that conversation." - Dr. Mara Gordon   "Food is so important. It's so cultural. It's a way that we share community, a way that we show respect to people, and it really can change the way that people sort of experience food." - Dr. Mara Gordon Resources Dr. Mara Gordon's website   Dr. Mara Gordon's substack   Grab my Journal Prompts Here!   Grab the Replay of the Resistance in Treatment Webinar   Now accepting new clients! Find out if we're a good fit!      LEAVE A REVIEW + help someone who may need this podcast by sharing this episode.   Be sure to sign up for my weekly newsletter here!   You can connect with me on Instagram @rachelleheinemann, through my website www.rachelleheinemann.com, or email me directly at rachelle@rachelleheinemann.com  

“Weight bias often predates degree completion, for doctors, and one study showed 67% of medical students exhibited overt (explicit) bias against patients in larger bodies, calling them “lazy, unmotivated, noncompliant, and unhealthy” (source).  It's no wonder so many people I meet with have such little desire to go to the doctor. Today's episode is an […] The post A Look At Size Inclusive Care, Weight Loss Drugs, and Weight Bias and Stigma, with Size Inclusive Provider Dr. Mara Gordon appeared first on Registered Dietitian Nutritionist, Intuitive Eating Columbus OH.

In this enlightening episode of The Reflective Mind Podcast, Dr. Reid speaks with Dr. Mara Gordon, a pioneer in the field of size-inclusive medicine. Dr. Gordon shares insights into her comprehensive approach to healthcare that prioritizes patients of all body sizes.We delve into how size-inclusive medicine goes beyond the numbers on a scale, focusing on holistic patient care, individualized treatment plans, and the importance of addressing weight bias in the medical field. Dr. Gordon discusses the impact of size discrimination, and practical strategies for other healthcare professionals to foster a more inclusive environment.Join us for an eye-opening conversation that redefines what it means to provide compassionate and equitable care. Whether you're a healthcare professional, a patient, or simply curious about how to make the medical system more inclusive, this episode offers valuable perspectives and actionable insights.Thanks for reading A Mind of Her Own! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Medical Students for Size-Inclusive Medicine can be found at https://sizeinclusivemedicine.org/our-story/Authors Recommended in Episode:* Lindy West* Roxane Gay* Kiese LaymonDr. Reid on Instagram: @jenreidmdThanks for listening to The Reflective Mind Podcast! Listening is free for all, so please share it with everyone!Also check out Dr. Reid's regular contributions to Psychology Today: Think Like a ShrinkDr. Mara Gordon is a family physician and writer based in Philadelphia. Her writing has appeared on NPR, in the New York Times, the Atlantic, the Philadelphia Inquirer, STAT News, and elsewhere. Please check out her newsletter, Chief Complaint, for more reflections on medicine, parenting, gender, and fatphobia.Dr. Gordon worked in public health in Tanzania and Malawi before returning home to attend medical school at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. She stayed at Penn for residency training in Family Medicine and Community Health and was the 2018-2019 Health & Media Fellow at National Public Radio.She is now on the faculty at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University in Camden, NJ, where she serves as a primary care physician for patients of all ages and teach medical students. Seeking a mental health provider? Try Psychology TodayNational Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255Dial 988 for mental health crisis supportSAMHSA's National Helpline - 1-800-662-HELP (4357)-a free, confidential, 24/7, 365-day-a-year treatment referral and information service (in English and Spanish) for individuals and families facing mental and/or substance use disorders.Disclaimer:The views expressed on this podcast reflect those of the host and guests, and are not associated with any organization or academic site. The information and other content provided on this podcast or in any linked materials, are not intended and should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. All content, including text, graphics, images and information, contained on or available through this website is for general information purposes only.If you or any other person has a medical concern, you should consult with your health care provider or seek other professional medical treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something that have read on this website, blog or in any linked materials. If you think you may have a medical emergency, call your doctor or emergency services (911) immediately. You can also access the National Suicide Help Line at 1-800-273-8255 or call 988 for mental health emergencies. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amindofherown.substack.com

Sara welcomes back Mara Gordon where they talk about innovative uses of cannabinoids, patient-specific protocols, and the global acceptance and research of medical cannabis. [Ep118]

The final part of a three part "best of" series - featuring choice cuts from The Paul Ryder Tapes series with late Happy Mondays bassist and founding member Paul Ryder and his ex-wife Angela Smith along with special guests Alan Howard, Rosemary Barratt, Sonny Ryder, Chico Ryder, Rowetta, Paul Popplewell, Jeanette Jackson, Daz Gilkinson, Danny Short, Pete Smith, Linda Ryder, Sandra Whelan, Gaz Whelan, Dolph Taylor, Alison Taylor, Steven Marcus, Sarah Nelson, Latch, Paul Davis, John Robb, Phil Saxe, Jason Godwin, Mara Gordon, Mani, Bez, Mark Day, Anthony "Muzzer" Murray, Dave Brettell, Clint Boon and Peter Hook. Hear about Happy Mondays trip to Brazil where they met Ronnie Biggs, Paul's son Chico's cancer battle, his infidelities and encounters with Mickey Rourke, George Harrison, Ringo Starr and Prince. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People are turning to drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy to lose weight – but where do they fit in the body-positivity movement? Today on Post Reports, what some fat activists think of these drugs and how one doctor is talking about these medicines with her patients.Read more:Some companies are marketing GLP-1 drugs to body-positive influencers in the hopes that they'll market their products to their followers. Shane O'Neill is a style reporter at the Post and writes the Style Memo newsletter. When he heard about this marketing push, he reached out to some of these influencers and activists to get their take on whether these drugs had a place in their messaging.At the same time, many doctors are busy fielding questions from patients who are interested in taking these drugs to lose weight. Mara Gordon is a physician in New Jersey who is trying to stop weight stigma by practicing a size-inclusive approach to medicine – meaning she doesn't offer these drugs for weight loss. She doesn't think that these drugs can cure fatphobia, and so she tries to talk through patients' goals with them and orient the solutions away from weight loss.“So let's say I have a patient who doesn't have diabetes, but they say they want to lose weight. So we try to explore that – what are you hoping to achieve? What feels wrong in your life that feels related to, related to your body size?”Today's show was produced by Sabby Robinson. It was edited by Lucy Perkins and mixed by Sean Carter. Thanks to Monica Campbell and Ariel Plotnick. Subscribe to The Washington Post here.

The popular weight loss drug Ozempic makes shedding pounds seem like magic. But the reality is more complicated, says family physician Dr. Mara Gordon. She explains why it's hard to talk about Ozempic without addressing weight stigma and diet culture.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

The popular weight loss drug Ozempic makes shedding pounds seem like magic. But the reality is more complicated, says family physician Dr. Mara Gordon. She explains why it's hard to talk about Ozempic without addressing weight stigma and diet culture.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

She has spoken to medical practitioners, advocates and families around the world about the amazing benefits of cannabis. You may have heard her through TEDx Talks or seen her in the documentary, Weed The People. Mara Gordon joins us from Mexico to talk about how cannabis helped both her and her husband and discusses the benefits of cannabis along with proper dosing for both young and old. This episode is jam packed with valuable information and well worth the listen.

Mara Gordon, co-founder of Aunt Zelda's, Octopi Wellness, and Zelira Therapeutics, offers her take on the value of cannabis and why the insurance community should embrace and not … Read More » The post Cannabis 101 Talk on Workers' Comp and Medical Cannabis appeared first on Insurance Journal TV.

Mara Gordon , cofounder of Aunt Zeldas is the guest for episode 56 of the Lonestar Collective Podcast. For more information on her business visit https://auntzeldas.org/ For her Ted Talk visit https://youtu.be/jyAGlb8PMRc Mara Gordon is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher. She has harnessed her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity. Mara openly shares her knowledge about the therapeutic benefits of the cannabis plant – whether consulting with medical teams, through TEDx Talks or calling out hyperbole in the industry she cares so deeply about. Find us on social media Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/txcancollective Twitter: https://twitter.com/txcannaco Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/txcannabiscollective/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TexasCannabisCollective

Mara Gordon , cofounder of Aunt Zeldas is the guest for episode 56 of the Lonestar Collective Podcast. For more information on her business visit https://auntzeldas.org/ For her Ted Talk visit https://youtu.be/jyAGlb8PMRc Mara Gordon is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher. She has harnessed her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity. Mara openly shares her knowledge about the therapeutic benefits of the cannabis plant – whether consulting with medical teams, through TEDx Talks or calling out hyperbole in the industry she cares so deeply about. Find us on social media Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/txcancollective Twitter: https://twitter.com/txcannaco Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/txcannabiscollective/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TexasCannabisCollective

Sprinkle me this, sprinkle me that, sprinkle me vegan sweets. This is a delicious episode. Meet Mara Gordon, a Fort Lauderdale resident who started her vegan baking business during the pandemic. Her vegan cookies and desserts have been a hit around the Miami/Fort Lauderdale farmers markets. Learn how she began her successful side hustle all while planning a wedding and working full time. You can do it too! Airpods in, volume up, start your successful side hustle!  Head over to www.getbeyondmoney.tropicalfcu.com/get-beyond-money-quiz to see how much you could stop losing and start saving. For more GBM resource follow @TropicalFCU on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.

Gretchen Gailey is a journalist, communications strategist and political policy maker. She is the founder of Panoptic Strategies, a consulting firm that works specifically with cannabis clients. In addition to her communications expertise, she has also worked with lawmakers to inform them on tax policy and provided the U.S. Senate Finance Committee with the data necessary to draft cannabis tax legislation. Cannabis and politics!Before joining the cannabis movement, Gretchen served as the Communications Director for Congressman Bill Shuster (R-PA), the Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. She has a wide depth of knowledge in communications stemming from more than ten-years of experience as a journalist with Fox News and NBC News in Washington, D.C. Gretchen has interviewed heads of state, covered natural disasters, political campaigns, terrorist trials and has told the stories of countless Americans across the country. But Joyce knows her has a regular contributor on The State of Cannabis, the stickiest news source on Clubhouse. On today's episode Joyce and Gretchen discuss political cannabis intersections and the value her conservative voice is adding to the cannabis conversation.Topics Discussed(1:32) Courage in Cannabis book available(3:22) Pot Pocket(3:50) University of Arizona and Green Flower(4:20) Cannabis Policy Advisor(5:00) Gretchen Gailey Introduction(6:04) The State of Cannabis (6:30) Susan Soares and State of Cannabis(12:10) Cannabis Economist(13:41) KCSA Congressional Cannabis Day Forum and Ricki Lake(13:53) Weed the People(14:14) Mara Gordon(21:30) New Frontier Data(24:12) Cannabis Relationships(28:00) The Daughters of the American Revolution(30:25) Safe Banking(35:00) The Future of Cannabis Delivery(39:30) 2022 Predictions(40:20) Industrial Hemp(42:35) Connect with Gretchen on Linked-In, Twitter and State of CannabisThe Canna Mom Show wants to thank:Josh Lamkin and Bella Jaffe for writing and performing TCMS theme music

In episode 8, Mara and Jeffrey discuss cannabis treatment protocols and education, global patient access, and much more... Links: Aunt Zelda's, Zelira Therapeutics, Society of Cannabis Clinicians, Weed the People on Netflix, Mary Janes: The Women of Weed Learn more: Mara Gordon is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda's™, Octopi Wellness, and Zelda Therapeutics (now Zelira Therapeutics). She specializes in the development of cannabis treatment protocols for seriously ill patients, and is a pioneer in medicinal cannabis globally. Aunt Zelda's™ line of products are the result of years of research & development in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers. Utilizing time-proven extraction processes improved with modern technology, Aunt Zelda's™ products offer precisely measured potency & purity that allows patients to dose to the milligram, unlocking the therapeutic potential of cannabis. Aunt Zelda's™ is manufactured by The Oil Plant. Previously, Mara worked as a process engineer, helping Fortune 500 companies create intelligent software. This experience has enabled her to take a detailed & scientific approach to medical cannabis. Her pioneering work in cannabis was recently chronicled in the Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein documentary, “Weed the People”, as well as Windy Borman's film “Mary Janes: The Women of Weed”, and Ben Daitz's "The Medicine in Marijuana". Mara is a Director of North Bay Credit Union (NBCU). She has been the keynote speaker at numerous conferences around the globe, and holds numerous advisory board positions including Zelira Therapeutics, CannPal, House of Saka, Patients Out of Time, and Marijuana Business Daily.

Mara Gordon is the Co-Founder of Aunt Zelda's™, Zelira Therapeutics, and OCTOPI Wellness as well as a Director of multiple organizations, including North Bay Credit Union.

On this episode, we are joined by Mara Gordon. Mara is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher. She has harnessed her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity. Topics: 1. The Art of the Exact Dosage 2. Formal Clinical Cannabis Research 3. Industry Hyperbole Twitter - @TheCannabisRev2 Episode Library - https://www.irishmedianetwork.com/the... Aunt Zelda - https://auntzeldas.org/

Mara Gordon is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher. She has harnessed her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity. Mara openly shares her knowledge about the therapeutic benefits of the cannabis plant – whether consulting with medical teams, through TEDx Talks or calling out hyperbole in the industry she cares so deeply about. Mara rose to prominence through the company she co-founded, Aunt Zelda's. Back in 2011, Aunt Zelda's operated as a collective, bringing bespoke cannabis formulations to patients. As additional regulations were introduced in California, Mara standardized her most popular therapeutic oil blends, making them commercially available to patients through the respected Aunt Zelda's brand. With science as her North Star, Mara has pursued data-driven, plant-based medicine for numerous maladies. Seeking to engage a larger medical and patient community as well as to place the practice of medicine back into the hands of qualified medical practitioners, Mara launched Calla Spring Wellness, a telemedicine platform and clinical service utilized by physicians and nurses to guide them on incorporating cannabinoid-based medicines into their standard treatment plans. Calla Spring Wellnessis fueled by her careful data collection through Aunt Zelda's, along with years of research and development in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers. Unlike other pharmaceutical drugs with recommended dosage protocols, formal clinical research on cannabis has been unavailable in the U.S. because of its classification as a Schedule I drug, resulting in more anecdotal than factual information. Unwilling to be stymied by federal laws, Mara co-founded Zelda Therapeutics in Australia. The company brings together some of the world's leading researchers and clinicians active in the study and use of medicinal cannabis to treat a variety of ailments. Presently, Zelda is engaged in pre-clinical research for multiple forms of cancer and diabetes-related cognitive decline, as well as clinical trials for autism, chronic pain and insomnia. As interest in cannabis spreads, Mara continues to be an outspoken leader in the medical cannabis space. She has appeared on stage in front of audiences nationally and internationally and was featured in the films The Medicine in Marijuana, Mary Janes: Women of Weed, and the award-winning documentary Weed the People.

Using cannabis for medicinal use has come a long way... BUT (there's always a 'but'). The ubiquitous products of CBD make this field seem like things are further progressed than they are. Newsflash: We have a long way to go. No fear: Data is here.Mara Gordon, Co-Founder of Aunt Zelda, Zelda Therapeutics, highlights the difference between the acclaimed CBD vs THC. Joined by Niko Woischnik, Mara clarifies how her company uses data to instruct doctors to prescribe the precise potency and dosage to patients seeking relief from a number of health conditions.Other topics to listen out for: Non-organic drug effects, advocating cannabis alongside treatments, and bringing about change in the healthcare system for the better.For more TOA content, subscribe to our NL (toa.berlin) and follow us on Instagram (@toaberlin), Twitter (@toaberlin), LinkedIn (toa-berlin) & Facebook (TechOpenAir).Support the show (https://paypal.me/TechOpenGmbH?locale.x=en_US)

 Pursuing data-driven, plant-based medicine for numerous maladiesAs an entrepreneur, researcher and founder of Aunt Zelda's,  Mara Gordon is a well-known cannabis advocate.  She joins Kyra Reed to talk about harnessing her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity.Produced by podCONXWeed The People 

When Mara Gordon started using medical cannabis there wasn't any lab testing — or any way to know how much of each cannabinoid or terpene was in a given strain . There was definitely no way of ensuring that you got the same effect from it consistently.So she drew on her training as a process engineer and decided to start doing it herself.Gordon has been featured in the Netflix documentary, Weed the People, and owns and operates two medical cannabis companies. One of the things she does is collect and analyze data about cannabis products and how patients with different medical conditions respond to them. All of that data is packaged into software doctors can use to manage their patients' medical marijuana treatment.“I know how to collect data. I know how to analyze data. I know how to make incredibly good medicine, but [doctors] have to be the ones managing [their] patients' care,” Gordon says on The Cannabis Enigma Podcast.What's one of the most surprising things she's learned from all of that data? “The lack of correlation between the weight of the patient and the dose,” Gordon says. “That was shocking.”This episode was originally released in December 2019.Produced by Michael Schaeffer Omer-Man and Elana Goldberg, and edited and mixed by Michael Schaeffer Omer-Man. The Cannabis Enigma Podcast is a co-production of Americans for Safe Access and The Cannigma. Music by Desca.

Mara Gordon is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda’s™, The Oil Plant (TOP), Calla Spring Wellness, and Zelda Therapeutics (now Zelira Therapeutics). She is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher.

Another big hitter on the pod this week! Jonny and Oscar were joined by a true legend of the cannabis industry – Mara Gordon, the Founder of Aunt Zelda’s. As one of the pioneers in bringing cannabis medicines to patients, Mara takes us through her cannabis journey, speaking about crucial data collection from patients, clinical trials, her staring role in canna films and more.

It’s so refreshing when you meet someone who understands what fulfills them and is actually doing it! It’s their calling. They’re mission driven. That is especially true for today’s guest: Mara Gordon, Co-Founder of Aunt Zelda’s. The drive to care for a loved one is a very powerful force. Mara, confronted with the challenge of helping her husband, when traditional methods had failed, turned to Cannabis. The impact was immediate, but unfocused. The obstacle in turning to Cannabis was that there was no data on effective dosing. She wanted a prescription, but ended up with a picnic! To a Process Engineer that is unacceptable. The ensuing journey in treating her husband, herself, loved ones, and eventually others embarked Mara down the road to solve the dosing issue for Cannabis. In the documentary “Weed the People”, and her TED Talk “Cannabis: Separating the Science from the Hype”, shares part of Mara’s journey of applying a collaborative, qualitative approach, in uncovering effective dosing for Cannabis. Her Aunt Zelda’s oil heavy Carrot Cake recipe was the perfect delivery method for some of those initial doses. That mission has now expanded to 4 companies, to deliver data-driven, Cannabis-based plant medicines, research, and knowledge for practitioners. Please enjoy the Amazing Founder’s Journey of Mara Gordon, Co-Founder of Aunt Zelda’s. Mara Gordon, Professional Summary: https://auntzeldas.org/about/mara-gordon/ Aunt Zelda’s, Corporate Summary: https://auntzeldas.org/about/ Show Notes: Relevant Links: Cannabis: Separating the Science from the Hype | Mara Gordon | TEDxPaloAlto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyAGlb8PMRc My Experience From 24 Years In California Cannabis: From Compassionate Use To A Corporate Buyout: https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cannabis/20/08/16903769/my-experience-from-24-years-in-california-cannabis-from-compassionate-use-to-a-corporate-buyout Mara Gordon: Aunt Zelda's, For Every Household: https://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenbobrow/2019/05/29/mara-gordon-aunt-zeldas-for-every-household/ HempCon: https://www.facebook.com/HempconShow/ https://www.instagram.com/hempcon/ Weed the People: https://www.weedthepeoplemovie.com/ Lawrence Ringo: A Hidden Origin Story of the CBD Craze: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/sunday-review/coronavirus-cbd-oil.html Lawrence Ringo: Father of CBD: https://theemeraldmagazine.com/lawrence-ringo/ Zelira Therapeutics: https://zeliratx.com/ Calla Spring Wellness: Canna/Non-Canna Founders LinkedIn & Social Steve Jobs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs Mother Teresa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa Hashtags: #LitUpCannabis #CannabisFoundersJourney #CannabisEntrepreneur #Founder #Cannabis #Entrepreneur #MaraGordon #AuntZeldas Mara Gordon, Co-Founder, Aunt Zelda’s Also: Co-Founder of The Oil Plant, Zelda Therapeutics, and Calla Spring Wellness mara@auntzeldas.org https://auntzeldas.org/about/mara-gordon/ Personal Contact Info, Social, & Websites https://twitter.com/marabg https://www.linkedin.com/in/maragordon/ Brian Weber, Producer & Host, Lit Up Cannabis: A Founder's Journey linkedin.com/in/briancweber/ www.litupfounders.com www.facebook.com/LitUpFounders/ www.instagram.com/LitUpFounders/ www.twitter.com/LitUpFounders www.linkedin.com/company/litupmedia/ Listen to the episode here or on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, iHeartRadio or RSS to your favorite podcast app.

Leslie Andrachuk, Founder and CEO of Alpha Woman interviews Mara Gordon. Mara specializes in the development of cannabis extract treatment protocols for seriously ill patients in California. She is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda's and Zelda Therapeutics. Prior to Aunt Zelda's, Mara worked as a process engineer, helping Fortune 500 companies create intelligent software by utilizing the Rational Unified Process. Visit https://www.alphawomanco.com for more Alpha Woman!

Mara Gordon is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda'sTM and Zelira Therapeutics. She specializes in the development of cannabis treatment protocols for seriously ill patients, and is dedicated to bringing about change in the healthcare system. Prior to Aunt Zelda's, Gordon worked as a process engineer, helping Fortune 500 companies create intelligent software. This experience has enabled her to take a detailed and scientific approach to medical cannabis. Gordon has transformed the lives of thousands of patients suffering from a variety of ailments, including chronic pain, autoimmune conditions and multiple forms of cancer. Her pioneering work in the field of medical cannabis has been chronicled in films such as The Medicine in Marijuana, Mary Janes: Women of Weed, and the award-winning documentary Weed the People. Gordon is an outspoken and highly-respected advocate for medical cannabis, reshaping perceptions and leading an industry-wide revolution. She has presented at medical and industry conferences around the globe and holds multiple board positions, including North Bay Credit Union, in addition to numerous advisory boards. Useful linkshttps://auntzeldas.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/maragordon/To learn more about plants & your health from Colleen at LabAroma check out this informative PDF: https://mailchi.mp/2fe0e426b244/osw1lg2dkhDisclaimer: The information presented in this podcast is for educational purposes only, and is not intended to replace professional medical advice. Please consult your doctor if you are in need of medical care, and before making any changes to your health routine.

Joel Selway of Brigham Young Univ on some democracies thriving during COVID-19. Deborah Himes of Brigham Young Univ on breast cancer communication. Evan Wiig, Community Alliance Family With Farmers on community supported agriculture. Mara Gordon of Cooper Medical School, Rowan Univ, on afternoon doctor visits. Dave Conlin of the National Park Service on their dive team. Sophia Choukas-Bradley, Univ of Pittsburgh, on social looks.

A visit to the doctor's office looks a little different during the pandemic. Doctors are using telemedicine services to treat patients more frequently. In this episode, Dr. Mara Gordon provides tips to help you get the most out of your telehealth visit.

A visit to the doctor's office looks a little different during the pandemic. Doctors are using telemedicine services to treat patients more frequently. In this episode, Dr. Mara Gordon provides tips to help you get the most out of your telehealth visit.

Why does science research and data matter so much in this day and age? And more importantly who are our sources from the information and data we get? Not all data is the same. In this episode of Cannabis Tech Talks, Editor-in-Chief Charles Warner talks with cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher, and founder of Aunt Zelda's and Zelira Therapeutics Ltd. Mara Gordon. Mara and Charles talk about how the cannabis industry has evolved and changed in such a short period of time and what data is the right data. Zelira Therapeutics Ltd (formerly Zelda Therapeutics) is a leading global therapeutic medicinal cannabis company with access to the world’s largest and fastest growing cannabis markets. Visit https://auntzeldas.org https://zeliratx.com to learn more! Today’s Cannabis Tech Talks is brought to you by Surna Inc. - Indoor Cultivation HVAC Equipment and MEP Engineers Visit www.surna.com to learn more!

Why does science research and data matter so much in this day and age? And more importantly who are our sources from the information and data we get? Not all data is the same. In this episode of Cannabis Tech Talks, Editor-in-Chief Charles Warner talks with cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher, and founder of Aunt Zelda's and Zelira Therapeutics Ltd. Mara Gordon. Mara and Charles talk about how the cannabis industry has evolved and changed in such a short period of time and what data is the right data. Zelira Therapeutics Ltd (formerly Zelda Therapeutics) is a leading global therapeutic medicinal cannabis company with access to the world's largest and fastest growing cannabis markets. Visit https://auntzeldas.org https://zeliratx.com to learn more! Today's Cannabis Tech Talks is brought to you by Surna Inc. - Indoor Cultivation HVAC Equipment and MEP Engineers Visit www.surna.com to learn more!

A trailblazing form of pediatric physical therapy that utilizes postural responses to improve function. Learn about CME therapy from expert physical therapist Mara Gordon! Would you like to sponsor an episode? Have a questions: specialneedsinmotion@gmail.com. Please review and share so we can grow! #pediatricphysicaltherapy #specialneeds #specialneedsparenting --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/specialneedsinmotion/support

Mara Gordon is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda's, a California medical cannabis brand that emphasizes a scientific understanding of cannabis's medicinal qualities. Mara recently joined podcast host TG Branfalt to talk about cannabis medicine, medical cannabis research developments from around the world, using data and technology to drive the medical cannabis space, how to harness the excitement surrounding this industry, and more. For a full transcript: https://www.ganjapreneur.com/mara-gordon-data-driven-cannabis-medicine/

When Mara Gordon started using medical cannabis there wasn't any lab testing — or any way to know how much of each cannabinoid or terpenes were in any given strain . There was definitely no way of ensuring that you got the same effect from it consistently.So she drew on her profession as a process engineer and decided to start doing it herself.Gordon has been featured in the Netflix documentary, Weed the People, and owns and operates two medical cannabis companies. One of the things she does is collect and analyze data about cannabis products and how patients with different medical conditions respond to them. All of that data is packaged into software doctors can use to manage their patients' medical marijuana treatment.“I know how to collect data. I know how to analyze data. I know how to make I incredibly good medicine, but [doctors] have to be the ones managing [their] patients' care,” Gordon says on The Cannabis Enigma Podcast.What's one of the most surprising things she's learned from all of that data? “The lack of correlation between the weight of the patient and the dose,” Gordon says. “That was shocking.”At the end of the episode, stick around for a Q&A with Dr. Roni Sharon about using cannabis to treat anxiety and depression.

Based on her personal experiences, Mara Gordon, co-founder of Aunt Zelda's, has become passionate about using cannabis to treat patients with illnesses and injuries. Gordon notes that, based on her data, THC is the most medically useful cannabinoid, although she is also a strong proponent of medical-use CBD. She also points out that, typically, younger patients require higher doses, whereas older patients require lower doses. This could be due to number of cannabinoid receptors, metabolism speed, or mere differences in psychology. Besides science, Gordon believes that products need to be well understood with everything printed on the label.

Sara talks with Mara Gordon, co-founder of The Oil Plant (TOP), Aunt Zelda’s™, Calla Spring Wellness, and Zelda Therapeutics about the medical cannabis industry, the cannabis/integrative health connection and education. The post Planted – Mara Gordon appeared first on Radio Misfits.

Aunt Zelda's is a medicinal cannabis dispensary based in the state of California. Their products are contaminant-free and high quality with easily understood dosages. Mara Gordon, the founder of Aunt Zelda's, is guest speaking on an episode of The Thoughtful Entrepreneur. Tune in! Mara Gordon talks about the documentary Weed the People: The Future of Legal Marijuana in America that she's involved in and her recent TEDx presentation: Cannabis: Separating the Science from the Hype. Mara Gordon's goal is to accurately dose patients in order to create individualized treatments for different people with different illnesses. If you want to know more about the modern day medicinal cannabis industry then jump onto The Thoughtful Entrepreneur!   ***************** FREE LIVE TRAINING ON BECOMING A MEDIA CELEBRITY: https://upmyinfluence.com/free-ticket ***************** WHAT IS YOUR AUTHORITY SCORE? TAKE THE QUIZ: https://upmyinfluence.com/quiz ***************** WANT TO BECOME A MEDIA CELEBRITY? GRAB 30 MIN WITH JOSH TO DISCUSS: https://upmyinfluence.com/schedule ***************** BE A GUEST ON THE THOUGHTFUL ENTREPRENEUR: https://upmyinfluence.com/podcast-application/ ***************** SEE OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND LEARN AUTHORITY MARKETING & INFLUENCE GROWTH:https://upmyinfluence.com/youtube

Mara Gordon is a cannabis advocate, entrepreneur, and researcher. She has harnessed her background as a process engineer to create therapeutic dosing regimens for thousands of patients around the world, drastically improving their health, quality of life and longevity. Mara openly shares her knowledge about the therapeutic benefits of the cannabis plant – whether consulting with medical teams, through TEDx Talks or calling out hyperbole in the industry she cares so deeply about. Mara rose to prominence through the company she co-founded, Aunt Zelda’s. Back in 2011, Aunt Zelda’s operated as a collective, bringing bespoke cannabis formulations to patients. As additional regulations were introduced in California, Mara standardized her most popular therapeutic oil blends, making them commercially available to patients through the respected Aunt Zelda’s brand. With science as her North Star, Mara has pursued data-driven, plant-based medicine for numerous maladies. Seeking to engage a larger medical and patient community as well as to place the practice of medicine back into the hands of qualified medical practitioners, Mara launched Calla Spring Wellness, a telemedicine platform and clinical service utilized by physicians and nurses to guide them on incorporating cannabinoid-based medicines into their standard treatment plans. Calla Spring Wellness is fueled by her careful data collection through Aunt Zelda’s, along with years of research and development in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers. Unlike other pharmaceutical drugs with recommended dosage protocols, formal clinical research on cannabis has been unavailable in the U.S. because of its classification as a Schedule I drug, resulting in more anecdotal than factual information. Unwilling to be stimied by federal laws, Mara co-founded Zelda Therapeutics in Australia. The company brings together some of the world’s leading researchers and clinicians active in the study and use of medicinal cannabis to treat a variety of ailments. Presently, Zelda is engaged in pre-clinical research for multiple forms of cancer and diabetes-related cognitive decline, as well as clinical trials for autism, chronic pain and insomnia. As interest in cannabis spreads, Mara continues to be an outspoken leader in the medical cannabis space. She has appeared on stage in front of audiences nationally and internationally and was featured in the films The Medicine in Marijuana, Mary Janes: Women of Weed, and the award-winning documentary Weed the People.

More and more people battling cancer are turning to cannabis to help alleviate their symptoms and mitigate the side-effects of chemotherapy. So what role should cannabis play in cancer treatment? In this episode, host Max Simon explores the topic of cannabis and cancer with the help of three people on the front lines of the fight against the disease: Dr. Donald Abrams one of the world’s leading physicians on cannabis and cancer, Mike Robinson a cancer patient and cannabis advocate, and medical cannabis product maker Mara Gordon.

Cannabis is now on most people’s short list of things to consider when managing a diagnosis of cancer, and especially if pain is a part of the picture. Does cannabis deserve consideration in people with cancer and cancer-related pain? What do we know at this point? Join us with guest Mara Gordon, a global pioneer in medicinal cannabis as we explore the ins and outs of cannabis in cancer. This show is broadcast live on Tuesday's at 7PM ET on W4CS – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cs.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (http://www.talk4radio.com/) on the Talk 4 Media Network (http://www.talk4media.com/).

Mara Gordon is a pioneer in the development of therapeutic cannabis oils for patients suffering from pediatric cancer and other serious diseases. (She's also the central figure in Weed the People, the documentary from Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein). Mara brings her encyclopedic knowledge of medicinal cannabis, boundless compassion, serious business acumen and sense of humor to this episode -- it's a must listen!

That’s the question scientists and advocates have been asking for decades. Ricki Lake’s moving new documentary, Weed The People, seeks the answer.If you've been following this podcast you know that cannabis doesn’t cure cancer. Nothing does -- cancer is a broad description of over 200 different disease states that can be treated with varying rates of success. But you also know that cannabis does do amazing things like cause some cancers cells such as glioblastoma (a fast-moving brain cancer that oncologists call “The Terminator”) to commit suicide. It also works synergistically and somewhat mysteriously to up the life extending outcomes of certain chemotherapies.What isn’t known is why the US government restricts access to cannabis meds and why it wantonly bans most of the research in this country.Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein’s new documentary, Weed The People, examines this cruel reality by following the lives of 5 kids with brain cancer (and their fraught families). In other words, kids with death sentences for whom conventional chemotherapies have failed. The filmmakers followed these families for upwards of 7 years. Four of the five kids are alive today. Some of them are thriving. 'Nuf said.The film was spawned when Ricki’s husband, Christian, received a cancer diagnosis. He passed away, but in their search for alternative therapies, he came upon some remarkable cannabis healers, among them Mara Gordon, founder of Aunt Zelda’s (she is featured on Episode 5 of our podcast). Ricki made it her mission to finish Christian's search and tell the story of so many others in the same situation.She, of course, is no stranger of advocacy film making. In 2008 she and Abby made the groundbreaking and widely heralded The Business of Being Born about the institutionalization of childbirth, which caused millions of women to shift to home birth.As of this writing, the Weed the People is showing in just a few markets (100% on Rotten Tomatoes so far), but the filmmakers are making it available to people who want to hold screenings in communities around the country. Listen to our great interview for details on how to arrange a screening and be sure to watch the trailer.

Episode 002 of the Critical Grass Podcast with guest Mara Gordon

Our special double episode with Mara Gordon and Roger Volodarsky on the medical and recreational benefits of dabbing.There’s no more controversial way of taking in cannabis than dabbing. Dabbing is the process by where a tiny, quinoa-size bit of cannabis oil is heated and inhaled. Instead of typical cannabis which averages about 25% THC, a dab can clock in from 70-90% THC. The effect can be mind stingingly powerful or a powerful remedy for relieving breakthrough pain.Aficionados claim dabs are the cleanest and most efficient way of consuming: No combustion of plant matter, no lung irritation. But there are, or were, downsides. One is the rig you once needed to smoke them--it required a blow torch to heat a titanium nail which you then inhaled in a long glass column. It looked like freebasing and the association with crack was unavoidable. Second, dabs are seriously powerful. As mentioned, the THC concentration is amazingly high (pun intended). Finally, the dose is difficult to control. The size difference between a quinoa and sesame seed isn’t that great, but it can make the difference between a powerful high and a knockout punch that can lay even experienced users flat.But those same powerful highs can also be used as powerful medicine, and in the first part of this episode, Mara Gordon, founder of Aunt Zelda’s, the finest oil maker in the US, explains how patients with serious conditions like chronic pain have been using them with great results. She’ll tell us how to look for great oil and recommends a portable dabber that allows for discreet dabbing on the go.Our second guest, Roger Volodarsky, founder of PuffCo, has created The Peak, a next generation instrument that looks good on any shelf. It is handsomely designed, well weighted so that it won’t tip, portable and equipped with hepatic feedback and temperature controls. Not only does it remove the visual stigma from dabbing, but it has inspired hundreds of glass artists to create their own designs to fit atop it. This makes it the first open source dab rig in existence. See some of remarkable designs here but listen to his thoughts and inspirations on the second half of this episode.

Cannabis Engineer Mara Gordon Tell Us About Proper Dosing by Doctor Frank

Today on Hempire our host Eileen Karpfinger is joined by Mara Gordon, co-founder of Aunt Zelda's and Zelda Therapeutics. "Aunt Zelda’s is a pioneering, data-driven developer of cannabis-based plan medicines. Their products are the result of years of research and development by founders, Mara Gordon and Stewart Smith, in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers. Utilizing ancient extraction process improved with modern technology, they offer organic medicines of precisely measured potency and purity. Their medicines empower patients to dose to the milligram and unlock the therapeutic potential of cannabis." Mara joins us to talk about the effects of cannabis against PTSD.

Jo dives into cannabis dosing with Mara Gordon, a world-renowned cannabis expert, and researcher. The founder of Aunt Zelda's and Calla Spring Wellness, Mara shares advice on honing our consumption experience. Don't miss the show notes for key takeaways and product info.

Co-founder of AuntZeldas.org, Mara Gordon stops by Truth Be Told Studio to tell us the history of why Marijuana became a crime and how the big business of the day made hemp product illegal instead of reaping the benefits of hemp and cannabis.

Today on Hempire Dr. Eileen Karpfinger is joined by Mara Gordon. Mara specializes in the development of cannabis extract treatment protocols for seriously ill patients in California. She is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda’s and Zelda Therapeutics. Prior to Aunt Zelda’s, Mara worked as a process engineer, helping Fortune 500 companies create intelligent software by utilizing the Rational Unified Process. This experience has enabled her to take a detailed and scientific approach to medical cannabis. Recognizing a need for patient focused software, Gordon founded CDRMed. With CDRMed, physicians and medical health professionals are able to make treatment recommendations based on the latest and highest-quality data. Gordon sits on the boards of Zelda Therapeutics, #illegallyhealed and New Frontier. She has presented at multiple CME-accredited medical conferences, along with inaugural medical cannabis conferences in Australia, Costa Rica, Chile, and the Czech Republic, as well as other events throughout the United States

Medical Care with Cannabinoids and Terpenes as Audrey Kerger welcomes Mara Gordon, founder of Aunt Zelda's, a world-renowned expert on cannabis and cancer.

Nope. Nothing cures the scourge of cancer (there are over 300 different types of “cancer,” all of which behave differently and respond differently to various treatments. That’s why it’s such a bitch.)But cannabis can cause certain types of cancer cells to commit suicide – in particular brain, breast and skin cancers.Our guest this week, Mara Gordon, has been treating cancer patients with high potency cannabis oils for over 5 years. She’s the founder of Aunt Zelda’s, a patient collective in Northern California, and the story of how she became one of the pioneers of this treatment is worth listening to—especially if you know someone battling this killer disease.Her treatments, in addition to standard oncology, have kept a young boy – Chico Ryder -- and dozens like him -- alive long after doctors wrote him off.To be clear: There are many myths surrounding cannabis and cancer—more pop up every day. Cannabis oil is not the miracle as some claim, but science is beginning to understand the ways it terminates tumors.

Cannabis expert Mara Gordon explains why, combined with conventional cancer therapies like chemo, cannabis provides new hope for cancer patients. The post Combined Therapy for Cancer: Chemo, Cannabis & A Dose of Courage appeared first on The Cannabis Reporter.

Packed with information, in this podcast we talk to Mara Gordon, founder of Aunt Zelda's.

Aunt Zelda’s is a pioneering, data-driven developer of cannabis-based plan medicines. Our products are the result of years of research and development by founders, Mara Gordon and Stewart Smith, in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers.Utilizing ancient extraction process improved with modern technology, we offer organic medicines of precisely measured potency and purity. Our medicines empower patients to dose to the milligram and unlock the therapeutic potential of cannabis.

Aunt Zelda’s is a pioneering, data-driven developer of cannabis-based plan medicines. Our products are the result of years of research and development by founders, Mara Gordon and Stewart Smith, in consultation with knowledgeable physicians and world-renowned researchers. Utilizing ancient extraction process improved with modern technology, we offer organic medicines of precisely measured potency and purity. Our medicines empower patients to dose to the milligram and unlock the therapeutic potential of cannabis.

On Episode 6 of THC Radio, hosts David Maddalena and Christie Lunsford have a chat with Mara Gordon, Founder of Aunt Zelda's.

Cannabis extract treatment protocols with Mara Gordon Co-founder / Chief Process Engineer of The Oil Plant (formerly Aunt Zelda's). Mara Gordon specializes in the development of cannabis extract treatment protocols for seriously ill patients in California. She is the co-founder of Aunt Zelda's and Zelda Therapeutics. Prior to Aunt Zelda's, Mara worked as a process engineer, helping Fortune 500 companies create intelligent software by utilizing the Rational Unified Process. This experience has enabled her to take a detailed and scientific approach to medical cannabis. Recognizing a need for patient-focused software, Gordon founded CDRMed. With CDRMed, physicians and medical health professionals are able to make treatment recommendations based on the latest and highest-quality data. Gordon sits on the boards of Zelda Therapeutics, #illegallyhealed, and New Frontier. She has presented at multiple CME-accredited medical conferences, along with inaugural medical cannabis conferences in Australia, Costa Rica, Chile, and the Czech Republic, as well as other events throughout the United States.