Podcasts about qiological

Thirty plus years ago, as an acupuncture patient, I found myself puzzling over the question of “Just how does acupuncture work?” That question has been a reliable traveling companion ever since. Our work requires a lot of “techne'” and it should, there's a lot to know and we as professionals should know it. But clinical work is more than technical knowledge. It's this other aspect of our work that I particularly seek to investigate on Qiological. In part because it's not about knowledge, but instead “something else” that does not easily lend itself to teaching. It's something vital that is learned through our experience of doing this work. It's a kind of seasoning. A synthesis of what you know, who you are, and in connection with your patient— how you are.I'm always curious to know what brought people to doing this work. And even more so— about how the work changes us. With this in mind please enjoy this 400th episode which is an Ask Me Anything conversation with members of the Qiological Community.

Understanding and acknowledging how things are is a terrific starting point. It's what led Ilan Migdali to not just understand how health insurance worked in California, but opened up a path for him to create an insurance network that specifically aimed at helping acupuncturists to thrive.Beyond the creative and practical work Ilan has done with insurance, he's also a student of the Balance Method and in particular looking at the yi jing and how the transformations of the gua can be stimulated within the body using particular acupuncture points.I always hope that when I speak with people Ilan a bit of their broad perspective might wear off me. Maybe it will broaden your perspective as well…. We'll find out right after a word from the people you can thank for making Qiological possible.

I had the delightful surprise of Zoe Coldham reaching out to me to tell me about the documentary she'd created that goes into the early days of acupuncture finding its way into the mainstream of British culture.As you probably know, Qiological has been doing a little mini-series on acupuncture's journey to the west as well. So I was keen to have her on to hear her perspective and what she's discovered.Listen in for this documentarian's perspective on acupuncture's Journey to the West.

We are here in the midst of winter cold going into the Spring Festival— the new Chinese Lunar year. It might seem strange to consider Spring as beginning in the deep middle of dark and cold, but all beginnings start in the dark. They begin before they can be seen. Qiological is delighted to have Gregory Done back with his perspective on the coming Wood Dragon year. This 12 year Earthly cycle of animals began anew with the Metal Rat in 2020, and we know how that shifted our world in profound ways. This past year of the Water Rabbit, as Gregory suggested, would be weird— and indeed it was.LIsten in as we review the Rabbit and consider the energies and symbols of the coming Wood Dragon, which begins a new Heavenly Stems cycle. Get ready to ride the Dragon, and know what to pack and what to leave behind.

This is a re release of Dr Chloe on Qiological - hosted by Michael MaxJoin us on the Radical Remedy Podcast, where I, Dr. Chloe, team up with the insightful Michael Max for a compelling exploration into the world of CBD and its intersection with Chinese medicine. We unravel the complexities of the endocannabinoid system, emphasizing its critical role in achieving balance within our bodies. Discover how CBD interacts with our brain and immune system, the stark contrasts with THC, and delve into the natural production of cannabinoids that orchestrate our internal harmony. We shed light on the promising research in the realms of epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, and the potential for CBD to modulate immune responses in the face of viral onslaughts and autoimmune conditions.Checkout Michael's podcast Qiological To try Dr. Chloe's Chinese herb and CBD blends check out Radical Roots and use the code RADREMEDY for 15% off!Last if you are looking for high quality supplements and recommendations, check out Dr. Chloe's Fullscript account here and get 15-20% off all supplements all the time!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How and why could learning classical Chinese make you a better clinician? Here are a couple of possible reasons: Reading the Chinese medicine classics directly, instead of modern textbooks about them, facilitates a more direct and hence authentic transmission, thereby giving you maximum clarity and efficacy through precise diagnosis and treatments rooted in the Chinese medicine paradigm. It enriches your medical vocabulary by introducing you to concepts that simply don't exist in Western languages or the biomedical paradigm, such as “Triple Burner” or “Gate of Life,” “Bi impediment syndrome,” or even Qi and Yin/Yang. By providing access to untranslated highly specialized information, it is certain to blow your mind and expand your tool chest.Last, but definitely not least, however, reading the classics will invariably remind you why you chose this path in the first place, rekindling your love for the Dao, reinspiring you and creating a space for not just professional but also personal cultivation, and for promoting virtue inside you, your community, and your patients. Emphasizing the lofty ideal of “harmonizing heaven and earth,” the classics call on us to practice Medicine with a capital M. -----------------------------Study Classical Chinese with Sabine, visit www.translatingchinesemedicine.com to learn more and register.Sabine has a wonderful collection of work that she's translated, visit Happy Goat Productions to add her books to your collections of treasure on Chinese medicine.Looking for a steady drip of thoughtful and clinically useful material and methods, sign on with the Imperial Tutor some nourishing mentoring.Love podcasts? Of course you do, you listen to Qiological! Sabine's new podcast A Pebble in the Cosmic Pond is a collaborative effort with Leo Lok and other friends. Tune it and enjoy!

In episode 9 of the Dr Karina Podcast I am speaking with the notorious Michael Max. Anyone practicing Chinese Medicine would be aware of Michael's long running podcast "Qiological"; a beacon of support and inspiration to all us practitioners doing our thing in our own little corner of the globe. Michael has a wealth of knowledge to share, and has conducted over 300 interviews with some of the most incredible practitioners alive today. In this episode the mic is turned, and I get the enormous privilege of asking Michael all about his journey to Chinese Medicine, what he has learned over his career, what are his favourite ways to tap into inspiration, as well as his advice for new grads entering the profession. We have some great laughs, some fabulous epiphanies, and enjoy real talk about our medicine. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. If you want to hear more of Michaels episodes, head over to Qiological:https://www.qiological.com Karina xx

In this Shoptalk, I will be sharing with you some critical advice regarding safety when needling GB 21 and the upper trapezius region generally.My advice comes from having served as an expert witness on a half-dozen cases in which well-intentioned and experienced acupuncturists, trained according to the current standards of the profession, nevertheless caused pneumothorax injuries–one of them fatal.What's an expert witness? A neutral professional who reviews evidence and renders opinions in a court proceeding as to whether the acupuncturists' care was up to standards of the profession–and if not, whether the substandard practice contributed to injuries, pain and suffering. Reviewing these cases has caused me to question some commonly-taught, widely-practiced, but unsafe techniques, and in my own practice, replace them with needle angles, lengths and depths, as well as screening protocols for risk factors, and other techniques that are much better at preventing pneumothoraxes, and yet just as clinically effective–if not more.Unfortunately, it's not just dry needlers who cause pneumothoraxes, but they are avoidable. Tune in to learn more! And visit the Qiological website for more resources and videos from Anthony.

In this short conversation Toby and Ji Ling Lin discuss some of the basics of Saam acupuncture. How it uses a combination of the yin and yang, the five phases, and the six confirmations. Additionally they touch on the way the system combines yin and yang organs in a novel way, that actually makes a lot of sense when you see the dynamic complementary relationships that are involved. Qiological is offering a live in person (and live streamed) class this June on Introduction to Saam Acupuncture: The Acupuncture of Wandering Monks. Visit the website for details and to register.Toby Daly, L.Ac, Ph.DToby began studying Chinese medicine in 1997 with Sunim Doam, a Korean monk trained in the Saam tradition. He earned his master's degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine in 2002 upon completion of training at the American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine in San Francisco and Chengdu University in China.During his four years of training in San Francisco, he interned with the prominent acupuncturist Dr. Angela Wu and learned to apply the lofty theories he was studying in school into the pragmatic setting of a busy clinic. Afterward he completed a PhD in Classical Chinese Medicine under the guidance of 88th generation Daoist priest Jeffery Yuen.Toby developed the Chinese Nutritional Strategies app to provide digital access to the wealth of Chinese dietary wisdom and the Chinese Medical Characters app to enable direct access to foundational Chinese medical terms and concepts. In 2023 he published his first book, An Introduction to Chinese Medicine a Patient's Guide to Traditional East Asian medicine.For the past four years he's been teaching the Saam method as it was taught to him by his teacher.

In less than 2 days, a single acupuncture treatment heals a wound that 2 months of conventional treatments couldn't help.This case exemplifies the power of Saam, a Korean tradition of acupuncture. I hope this case will inspire more acupuncturists to study Saam and be of interest for those already practicing Saam. A deep understanding of the qualities of the 12 channels of Saam was necessary to come to the correct diagnosis, the key that along with proper treatment unlocks the amazing healing potential of the body.Kristin WisgirdaI have been steeping in everything Saam since Toby Daly began teaching this tradition. Now Toby's teaching assistant, I work closely with him in developing my own offerings. I was the original moderator for the Saam forum on Qiological for 2 years and now have my own Saam mentorship program in the White Pine Circle. Guiding students through cases and the basics of Saam practice is a joy.I graduated from PCOM San Diego in 1999 and have been practicing in southeastern Massachusetts since.I am grateful for the opportunity to translate the beautiful world view of our medicine into results-oriented practice.Here are the Saam teaching opportunities with Kristin:12 Channels of Saam: Essential QualitiesThe course is broken up into 6 easier to assimilate modules and the calls are recorded. A private forum enables those who can't attend live to ask questions and participate and keep the conversation going between classes.This class will immediately improve your clinical prowess whether you have just taken the Intro to Saam class or have been practicing for a few years.Register Here: https://www.qiological.com/saam-12-channel/The Bright and the Dull: Eye Observation for Saam Acupuncture (recorded)Register Here: https://www.qiological.com/qiological-live-saam-eyes/Saam Mentorship with Kristin Wisgirda (ongoing)More info and registration here: https://whitepinecircle.org/saam-mentorship/If you're interested in the basic principles of Saam. This is the course for you:Introduction to Saam Acupuncture with Toby Daly (recorded)Register Here: https://www.qiological.com/online-intro-saam/

In today's Shop Talk segment, Michelle Grasek, acupuncturist and marketing strategist, shares actionable tips to help you get better results from your email marketing. She also addresses frequently asked questions that she often gets from marketing students and clients, including, "What if I'm annoying people by sending email?" "What the heck am I supposed to write about?" and "Who has time to write a consistent email newsletter?" Her goal is to help you send simple emails that get more patients on your schedule. She's also offering a discount code for Qiological listeners for her Year of Email Templates for Acupuncturists. If you feel like writing emails is simply not your thing, Michelle's done it for you. This is a collection of 26+ emails she sends to her own patients, focused on pain, anxiety, and digestion, among other topics. All you have to do is copy and paste the emails, edit quickly to match your clinic, and hit send. You can take a look at the templates here and use the discount code QIOLOGICAL30 to save $30. Enjoy!About Michelle GrasekHi there, I'm Michelle! I'm the host of the Acupuncture Marketing School podcast. I'm a practicing acupuncturist and marketing strategist and I've been teaching marketing, both online and in-person, for 9 years. In that time, I've taught marketing to over 3,500 acupuncturists. It's my mission to help you grow your business using marketing techniques that are genuine and generous.Through my articles and online PDA courses, I aim to help you outline a strategy, focus on marketing that's authentic, and get new patients every week. I share all of my practice-building tips at michellegrasek.com and on social media @michellegrasek.

Getting off track is not something uncommon for us. In fact, it's an everyday part of our human experience. The question is, how do you notice when this happens and then how do you reorient? More importantly, how do you navigate when in unfamiliar territory? And likewise with your clinical work, how do you deal with the new and the unknown when it comes to treating patients?In this conversation with Heather Becker-Brungard, we discuss some ways of approaching our work, as well as how we interact with the body. Much like the ancient navigators who mastered navigating by listening and sensing the water, weather, tides, currents, and wind. In clinical work practice and repetition make you better at what you do. And as we learn to work and interact with nature, our senses become refined and open up opportunities for new discoveries.Listen into this discussion on healing and why it isn't linear. And navigating the passage of illness to heal, and how you can be a trustworthy navigator to your patients in the clinic.Mentioned in this episode:Tell us how you feel about Qiological

The principles behind our medicine are relatively simple. The idea is to restore balance to a body that is in disharmony. To detect the patterns and ripples in the system. To facilitate the unimpeded flow of qi as a river does. Yet applying these theories in the practice of actual patient care is more complex. Learning in school or from mentors is one thing; cultivating the wisdom to apply this knowledge in the wild, it's not always straightforward. Sometimes things don't go how we expect. And all too often, we find ourselves in unchartered territory feeling our way through the unexpected. The knotty question then becomes: How do you navigate an unfamiliar terrain? How do you deal with the uncertainties that accompany the practice of medicine? In this conversation with Karina Smith, we discuss the difficulties of attending to complicated cases in our practice based on one of her student clinic experiences. We dig into the issues of competence, the role of intention, the irrationality of Chinese medicine, and concerns around overtreatment. And as both a Yin Yoga teacher and Chinese medicine practitioner, Karina also touches on how these two worlds seep into each other.Listen into this discussion on the enduring lessons from difficult experiences in the clinic, including navigating adverse reactions and mediating a truce between warring organs.Mentioned in this episode:Tell us how you feel about Qiological

Heaven and Earth, the creative and the created, micro and macrocosm. All ways of saying there is a reality we inhabit, and beyond that a lot of mystery. And mystery is something us humans have, at best, an ambivalent relationship with.We seek to find some sense of order in what can be a captiously unsettling and unpredictable world. We look to the heavens and seek a larger frame for our experience as we look for the patterns that connect.In this conversation Deborah Woolf graciously entertains some questions that I had arise after her Qiological Live presentation on the Earthly branches. Listen into this conversation on how the Earthly branches reflect back the influences of Heaven, and help us to understand where we stand in the cosmos and in relation to the seasons, cycles and tides of time.Mentioned in this episode:Tell us how you feel about Qiological

Classical Chinese medicine recognizes the Heart (心 Xin) as a central organ to our being. It's seen as holding the sovereign position as the emperor of the kingdom (i.e., the body). The Heart is where the Shen (神), the spirit, resides. It's what gives us discernment and consciousness. In a way, phrases like “follow your heart,” “home is where the heart is,” and “from the bottom of my heart” seem to pay homage to the spiritual and coherent nature of the Heart. But how does this influence our work in the clinic?In this conversation with Josephine Spilka, we discuss the importance of being in coherence, acting from a place of presence amid impermanent stories, staying true to our capacities, and setting boundaries in the clinic. Josephine also touches on the influence of the eight extraordinary channels and their connection to the Zheng Qi. Listen into this discussion on coherence, and the need to honor our faculties, integrity, and capacity in any clinical encounterMentioned in this episode:Tell us how you feel about Qiological

Are you a new Acupuncturist who wants to start a podcast?Success is not a straight line. It is a succession of failed experiments, hard work, strong networks, support systems, timing and happy mistakes. In this episode, on a random Sunday afternoon while testing new recording software a great little happy mistake of a podcast episode is born. I invite my Grumpy Uncle, Michael Max onto a mock podcast just to fill some airtime that I can later tinker with, but it was too good to not share. Today's GuestMICHAEL MAX LAC.I've been a student of acupuncture and Chinese medicine for going on 20 years now. It began as a curiosity as to how a few needles could not only resolve a stubborn health condition I'd had since childhood, but also improve my digestion, quality of sleep and mood. This lead me first to acupuncture school, and then Asia where I worked my way through the gate of Chinese language so I could study with doctors there. Today my work is informed by http://www.everydayacupuncturepodcast.com/YK-clinic (my clinical practice), the materials I read in Chinese from doctors of centuries past, and the teachers of our modern times who synthesize observations of the past with the challenges of the present. This podcast is rooted in my own curiosity, inquiry and appreciation for different points of view. In this episode we discuss:What it takes to create a successful practice. How Qiological became the success it is. Should a new Acupuncturist start a podcast? Some basic ideas and tools to keep in mind if you DO start a podcast. Resources:JOIN THE ACUSPROUT NEWSLETTER https://springtail-denim-cset.squarespace.com/runningpodcasts/%3Ca%20data-formkit-toggle=%227d4bdc656c%22%20href=%22https://expert-writer-9391.ck.page/7d4bdc656c%22%3EYour%20link%20text%3C/a%3E (HERE!) WANT TO BE ON THE EVERYDAY ACUPUNCTURE PODCAST? GO https://expert-writer-9391.ck.page/e64f127160 (HERE!) LISTEN TO THE EVERYDAY ACUPUNCTURE PODCAST on https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/everyday-acupuncture-podcast/id955298280 (APPLE) or https://open.spotify.com/show/68bXvICEgXJlenJYvqcYZk (SPOTIFY). LISTEN TO https://www.qiological.com/ (QIOLOGICAL.) https://www.acusprout.com/jane (Jane) Electronic Medical Records. Use thishttps://www.acusprout.com/jane ( link) to get your first month free! Follow AcuSprout on https://www.instagram.com/acusprout/?hl=en (Instagram) and https://www.facebook.com/acusprout (Facebook)

The first episode of Qiological aired at the end of August in 2017. I'd gotten more than a few emails from practitioners telling me how much they liked my previous podcast experiment…. Everyday Acupuncture, and that was surprising to me because I did not make that podcast for acupuncturists, it was aimed at the general public. So Qiological was an inquiry into seeing if acupuncturists and East Asian medicine practitioners might enjoy a podcast that goes more deeply into the medicine we share.  Turns out…. Yes. As we are coming up on 300 conversations now.  Starting today, the podcast is again freely available to all and will carry sponsorship advertising in each episode.  I've got more details about the changes to the podcast in this short solo show that commemorates five years of Qiological, along with some thoughts on medicine, practice and this new Gutenberg Press we call podcasting.

Patients come to us expecting a change in their situation—whether that is to gain or get rid of something. And as the 'expert' in the room, there's a proclivity to go in with the intention to find what's wrong and remediate it.  Consider that as a practitioner,  your role is to inquire by touch and not impose your ideas of what is right for a patient. To touch with curiosity, listen with your hands, allow patients to express themselves in a process of self-discovery and transformation, create space for the expression of their Jing (精), and make available the quiet comfort of no expectations. For this, our guest on this Qiological episode recommends we lend our consciousness or awareness to the landscape. Hone your attention to what is there, to the present moment.  In this conversation with Stephen Schleipfer, we explore the concepts of intention and attention, and how they impact the palpatory experience. We discuss the importance of bringing our attention to the causative space, the practice of self-cultivation, connecting our particulars to the whole, and learning to both connect and  let go as vehicles to transform our practice. Listen into this discussion on the key role of palpation, the use of attention in the clinical encounter, and working in the causative space.

Qiological is on vacation for the month of July, this discussion is one of a series of ‘summer re-runs' of some of our favorite conversations from Everyday Acupuncture Podcast, which was the forerunner of Qiological. We often think of germs, genetic abnormalities, poor lifestyle choices or plain bad luck as being the cause of illness and disease. We go looking for the “smoking gun,” for the one thing that was the source of our troubles, but often the health issues we face arise out of a much more complex stew of causes and conditions. In this episode Greg Bantick and I discuss the various ways that both illness and health can arise, how at times the symptoms we are troubled by are helpful messengers and how the influence of the mind plays a profound role in our wellbeing.

Qiological is on vacation for the month of July, this discussion is one of a series of ‘summer re-runs' of some of our favorite conversations from Everyday Acupuncture Podcast, which was the forerunner of Qiological.  Taiwan is famous for its high tech computer technology, bicycles, fragrant tofu, rivers of scooters, delicious street food, and of course, tea. Today's episode is a bit of a soundscape as we spend a portion of the afternoon drinking and discussing tea. Unlike your Western coffeeshop where you pop in for a beverage to go, or you grab a drink and sit with a couple of friends or work on your computer, a Taiwanese teashop has time unfolding at a completely different pace. And it is about dipping not only into something delicious in a cup, it's about connecting with your community and making new friends. Listen as my friend Pia and I imbibe tea and tea culture in a way that you only find in Taiwan.

Qiological is on vacation for the month of July, this discussion is one of a series of ‘summer re-runs' of some of our favorite conversations from Everyday Acupuncture Podcast, which was the forerunner of Qiological.   I thought my conversation with Njemile would walk through some of the step-by-step things women could do to improve their fertility. Turns out the conversation pivoted into including a deeper investigation of living a life that is connective, generative and mindful. Listen in as we explore the cultivation of fertility and connectedness in all the aspects of our lives. And gain some insight into what it means to live a fertile life.

Qiological is on vacation for the month of July, this discussion is one of a series of ‘summer re-runs' of some of our favorite conversations from Everyday Acupuncture Podcast, which was the forerunner of Qiological.   I thought my conversation with Njemile would walk through some of the step-by-step things women could do to improve their fertility. Turns out the conversation pivoted into including a deeper investigation of living a life that is connective, generative and mindful. Listen in as we explore the cultivation of fertility and connectedness in all the aspects of our lives. And gain some insight into what it means to live a fertile life.

Qiological is on vacation for the month of July, this discussion is one of a series of ‘summer re-runs' of some of our favorite conversations from Everyday Acupuncture Podcast, which was the forerunner of Qiological. Many of us fire up a meditation practice only to find ourselves sitting in an overwhelming riot of thought and agitation. Isn't this practice supposed to calm us down, lower blood pressure, ease the migraines, and maybe give our recurring assortment of anxieties, troubles and tribulations a nudge to the curb? Yeah, that's a common story, but the reality of a clear mirror held up to the mind will not have you feeling like those just-so poised and apparently calm models on the Internet. You'll probably want to get away from the noise and chaos between your ears. And that's a good reason to learn to sit in the storm. Our guest today has decades of experience with both meditation and acupuncture. And in this show we will get into the details of why you shouldn't believe everything you think, and why healing often defies the logical stair-step process we think it should take.

FIVE PAIN IN THE ASS THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO SECONDACU-014 This podcast is for the new practitioner, student or someone transitioning from contractor to business owner. In this episode I dish up your second serving of , “open a clinic pie”. Yep! A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down! There is absolutely NO WAY you can avoid this dish. This acupuncture practice stuff requires a special balance. Here we are working on Yin within Yang. This episode is all about the things within the business that make it turn.YOU’LL LEARNI launch with special thanks to my support team and all of the 2020 podcast celebrities on my show.Here is the link for the Qiological podcast. You are going to love it!Here are the next 5 things to do: BUT WAIT! If you haven’t listened to episode 013 do that first.1.) Get Malpractice Insurance https://www.cmfgroup.com/professional-liability-insurance/acupuncturist-insurance/https://www.miec.com/acupuncture/ http://www.hpso.com/individuals/professional-liability/malpractice-insurance-for-acupuncturists-coverage2.) Choose an EHRJaneAPP AcuSimple Unified Practice Or you can be old fashioned and use paper. Just be sure to understand the HIPAA regulations regarding the safekeeping of those files.Check out GoogleWorkspace. (*Affiliate Link) You are going to need a HIPAA compliant email address anyway. Keeping records here may be a good way to start if you can figure out how to sign the documents. 3.) Set up your Books (options)Hire a bookkeeper to keep your books OR hire a bookkeeper to set them up and teach you how to do the things.In episode 012, Travis Kearn suggests you learn how to set your books up with Hector Garcia CPA on youtube to learn the ropes. I agree. Then you can check out the online bookkeeping on GoDaddy. Or Check out QuickBooks if you need a bookkeeping system on steroids.4.) Hire an AccountantAsk other Acupuncturists who are similar to you who they use. A word of mouth referral is going to yield the best possible outcome.Go for a consultation. Is their office organized? Are they timely? Good Shen? (LOL)If you are confused at all, walk away. They should be able to explain everything clearly and have a nice little “to do” schedule for you.5.) Pick a Domain NameI like Hover. Or you could go with GoDaddy here, just don’t choose GoDaddy for both your website and your domain name.* Some of the links on this page are affiliate links.If you purchase through an affiliate link there is no additional cost to you and often there is actually a discount. I may receive a small commission from the sale.

ACU-004 Legend and podcast host Michael Max of Qiological joins Stacey in this podcast to school new practitioners about money, marketing and how to drive traffic to your website so you can help people without ever even meeting them. References:Podcast: Qiological Leave him a rating and review!Everyday Acupuncture Podcast (with Andrew Schlabach)Qiological episodes with Stacey Whitcomb EAMP, LAc.Show Notes:https://www.acusprout.com/podcast/michael-max-qiological

Tahnee is thrilled to be speaking with the wonderful Clare Pyers on the Women's Series today. Clare is an integrative medical practitioner who specialises in women's health, particularly in the areas of reproductive health and complex health conditions. Clare has a broad educational background including Chemical Engineering, Chinese Medicine, Integrative Medicine and Yoga. Clare is a leader in the industry of Chinese Medicine, having written the first comprehensive textbook that shows practitioners how to translate between the paradigms of Conventional, Functional and Chinese Medicine. A true renaissance woman, Clare also hosts Qiological, a podcast specifically crafted for Chinese Medicine practitioners. Clare joins Tahnee today, to bridge the gap between the East vs West approach to women's health, sharing her insights in a manner that is highly informative and easy to understand. Clare's clinical work is practical and thoroughly grounded in a holistic approach. Clare's methods allow women to feel safe, held and completely nourished on their journey to harmonious health.   Tahnee and Clare explore: How Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) views hormones, and the East vs West approach to addressing hormonal issues. The natural ebs and flows of the female reproductive cycle and the importance of the 'Chong Mai' vessel in TCM. The significance of the transitions between the body's phases of Yin and Yang, and how a disturbance in the body's natural course of Qi interferes with establishing menstrual harmony.  The masculine nature of Western society, and how operating a system that is dominated by this energy impairs female reproductive health. The Heart as the female palace of glory, and the Daoist system views this important organ. The misdiagnoses and misuse of herbs in polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS). Reproductive capability as a reflection of overall health, the idea that an organism cannot create new life in an environment (the body) where life is deficient. The Liver's role in female reproductive health. The difference between deficiency and excess. How TCM views menopause. The connection between the thyroid, iodine and salt. Hashimoto's and Graves Disease.   Who is Clare Pyers ? Clare is known for her expertise in the area of women’s health, specifically with women who have complex health problems. Clare has worked in the health industry since 2001in both mainstream and natural medicine settings. Clare has a broad educational background including Chemical Engineering, Chinese Medicine, Integrative Medicine and Yoga.  Clare hosts a podcast for Chinese Medicine practitioners, exploring a range of topics that are relevant for colleagues in her field. Clare is a leader in the industry of Chinese Medicine, having written the first comprehensive textbook that teaches practitioners how to translate between the paradigms of Conventional, Functional and Chinese Medicine. Clare is considered an expert in being able to explain the way these 3 different ways of understanding health and illness overlap with one another.   Resources:Clare's Website Clare's Facebook Clare's Instagram Heavenly Qi Podcast   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:04) Hi everybody and welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today I'm here with Clare Pyers, who I'm a massive fan of, so very excited to have you here today Clare. Clare is known for her expertise in the area of women's health, and especially with complex health stuff, as well as fertility. She has an amazing podcast called the Heavenly Qi podcast, which is a little bit technical, but even if you are new to Chinese medicine, it's a really great listen, and I've learned so much from it myself over the years. And Clare's been working in the health industry since 2001, so she's done all sorts of things from chemical engineering Clare, all the way through Chinese medicine, integrative medicine, yoga.   Tahnee: (00:46) And she's just this incredible leader in Chinese medicine in terms of really bridging these worlds of functional and conventional, and Chinese medicine. So she's got this amazing book which I have here, The Integrative TCM Guide to Pathology, which if you work in the health space I'd highly recommend you get a copy of. It's a bit of a bible around the SuperFeast office. And, yeah I love how she articulates things and how she teaches so I'm really excited to have her here today. So thanks for joining us Clare.   Clare Pyers: (01:16) Thank you so much for having me, and what a fabulous introduction. I'm very honoured to be here with you today, and I'm looking forward to our chat.   Tahnee: (01:24) Yeah, same. So we've had a few requests from our audience around, kind of bridging the divide I suppose, between the Western idea of hormones, and the TCM ideas of patterns and Yin and Yang and Qi, and how all these things work. So, I know you've worked a lot with women's health and fertility, so I imagine this is something you're dealing with all the time. Are you able to kind of, I guess give us a sense of how hormones fit into the scope of Chinese Medicine practise? Because they didn't identify hormones per se in the ancient texts but, we can see the effects of their actions, right? Would that be an accurate way to describe it?   Clare Pyers: (02:03) Yeah. And so, Chinese Medicine was created thousands of years ago, and the concept of hormones really is a, it's a Western science, reductionist, I guess understanding and description of the flows, the ebbs and flows of the body, which is essentially what hormones are. It's a complex interconnected series of systems in the body, that really regulate the ebb and flow of our daily life, and our weekly and monthly life, all of the cyclical things that happen in our body. And so, Chinese medicine came about through a lot of observation, a lot of trial and error, what works, what doesn't work. And obviously, the most obvious place to start when we're talking about hormones is female hormones, and in particular women's reproductive hormones. Because there is a very obvious way to track the cycle with a woman's menstrual cycle.   Clare Pyers: (03:10) And so, from a Chinese medicine point of view, we talk about, there's a concept of this, the Chong Mai, this very, very deep internal reservoir of Qi and Blood deep within us. And throughout the month it fills up with Qi and Blood, and it reaches a point where it overflows, and that is how a woman menstruates. It's where menstrual Blood comes from, this idea of the overflowing of this Chong Mai vessel, kind of like this, I forget the, you'll probably remind me what the English name of it is, but it's like this very deep-   Tahnee: (03:55) Is it the conception vessel?   Clare Pyers: (03:56) No, no, no.   Tahnee: (03:58) Yeah I actually don't know. I always call it the Chong Mai too. It's the one that ends between the breasts, right? Or is that where ...   Clare Pyers: (04:05) Yeah. And it's very deep. I think it's called the, no, I can't even remember. I won't even try. It'll come to me later. But the Chong Mai is the place where women's menstrual cycle comes from. And obviously we see the natural ebbs and flows of the hormonal pattern in a woman, and it should arrive on time every month. And so from a Chinese medicine point of view, we see any disturbances, any deviations from that kind of, that optimal hormonal picture as indications of where a woman's disharmony is. So, if a period arrives early, if it arrives late, if there's pain, if there's emotional symptoms, if there's any other symptoms that are going on, then that helps to give us clues as to which particular parts of her body, and which particular ways her you know, she's lost her harmony within herself and how we can then use that information to help get it back, get things back on track.   Tahnee: (05:13) I think it's the ... Is it the penetrating vessel?   Clare Pyers: (05:16) The penetrating vessel, yes.   Tahnee: (05:19) Is it sea of Blood? Is that the ...   Clare Pyers: (05:20) The sea of Qi and Blood, yeah.   Tahnee: (05:21) Qi and Blood, okay. Because I know it from like the esoteric stuff that I've learned, like our ... So one of the things we do is breast massage, which can disperse that Qi and Blood through the body and actually prevent menstruation. But in a healthy, non Daoist person. Really what ... The energy rises and then it drops. Is that the kind of Yin Yang function, is the peak of that, like the Yang and then the Yin is that descent down to the uterus? Is that kind of how we would look at that from a Yin Yang perspective? Or, am I losing the plot completely there or?   Clare Pyers: (05:56) Well, yeah, so we talk about, so the two phases of a woman's menstrual cycle. So, before ovulation, the follicular phase, or the proliferative phase, which is, starts with menstruation, and then once menstruation finishes, then the lining starts to build up again, and the ovary is developing the egg ready for release. So, that part of the phase is governed primarily by Yin, and so Yin is that very, I guess your listeners are very familiar with the concept of Yin and Yang, but Yin is the female aspect, that quietness, solitude, going within introspection. And then there's a big surge of Yang. So there's ... Yin never stays as Yin and Yang never stays as Yang, they're always constantly engendering one another and flowing between one another.   Clare Pyers: (06:48) And so, once we reach a certain point, there's enough strength within the Yin to allow the Yang to rise up, and that's what sparks of ovulation to happen. And then the second part of the cycle is governed by Yang. And so we have the Yang part of the menstrual cycle, which is the luteal phase. So after ovulation, there should be an abundance of Yang in a woman's body, and then once the Yang has kind of done its thing, then the Yin starts to come back in again. And that drop of Yang back into that Yin zone, is what sparks menstruation. So we kind of have those two phases of the cycle, and that flow of Yin and Yang. And so, when, I guess there's lots of listeners who, women who are listening and even men who are listening, who have women in their lives, and familiar with the idea of painful periods or PMS, I guess are the two most common menstrual problems that people are aware of.   Clare Pyers: (07:55) And that's, in a very broad sense, is a problem demonstrating a problem of that transition from Yin to Yang, and that transition back from Yang to Yin. If there's a problem with that transition, then that's where we see problems with PMS and period pain and things like that.   Tahnee: (08:14) And so I mean, a lot of people will write to us and say, "Oh, I have low progesterone," which is a Yang, am I correct? Is a Yang hormone.   Clare Pyers: (08:22) Yeah.   Tahnee: (08:23) And sort of governs that Yang phase of the cycle. And so then, I guess one thing I'm often trying to ... I mean, this is something I've really been working on in my own head is like, coming out of that linear Western model of cause and effect, and there's a symptom and fix it. And I feel like I've been, for a long time still trying to untrain my brain from thinking that way. But, it's kind of like you're looking at relationships in Chinese Medicine, right? You're not just looking at the progesterone flow, that's the problem, you're looking at what really like, how is that relating to the kind of, I guess the harmony in the body. Is that a ... I'm not sure I'm phrasing this question particularly well.   Tahnee: (09:02) But, for me I think when I started to look at functional medicine, when they were saying, "Okay well it's really the relationship of the levels of the hormones, it's not just one hormone." That made a lot more sense to me than the more kind of conventional model which is, low progesterone, take Vitex, you'll be fine. That doesn't really land for me anymore.   Clare Pyers: (09:22) Yeah. And it's way more complicated than that, you're right. And from Chinese Medicine, we go deeper. So we say, "Okay, great, you've got low progesterone and that corresponds with Yang and so you have not enough Yang." But then we go further and we say, "Okay, well, why isn't there enough Yang? What's going on? Which part of that process of the body naturally creating enough Yang to support, to support life essentially," that's what progesterone is for, pro-gestation, is to support a baby. And so which part of this woman's physiology is having trouble in being able to create this? And so, as a practitioner I'll often be looking for signs of Yin deficiency, or Blood deficiency, and that can stem from poor digestion, it can stem from an inappropriate diet for that person's constitution.   Clare Pyers: (10:22) It can stem from excessive stress, not getting enough rest, too much exercise. All of those kinds of things is kind of where we come from, from a Chinese Medicine point of view. And I really like that you made, you made a really good point that it's not just purely about the actual hormone levels, it's about the relative levels of hormones to each other. So, a person can have low progesterone and low oestrogen, and they might present as being both Yin and Yang deficient, or maybe just Blood deficient. Or a person can have a good level of progesterone but not enough oestrogen, or vice versa. They can have good levels of oestrogen, low progesterone, and that can you know, any imbalance between the two can cause problems in and of themselves.   Clare Pyers: (11:12) And so, you've got to look at that relative harmony between the hormones themselves, as well as the actual levels to be able to determine what the best course of action is. And of course in Chinese Medicine, we're blessed with, a whole framework of the Chinese medicine diagnosis and so, I think it creates a lot more richness in our approach to being able to treat women really effectively, and especially with the difficult cases.   Tahnee: (11:44) Yeah. Well for me, I had amenorrhea after coming off the pill for a long time two years something. And when I started to learn more about Blood deficiency, like the Spleen and Liver and that relationship with the Kidney, then it sort of all started to go, oh, okay, well that ... Now I'm understanding that I'm eating this diet that's really cold, that isn't appropriate for me. My Kidneys are struggling already because I'm stressed out, and they're not able to pilot like my Spleen, and my Spleen's kind of just like, not doing anything, having a tough time. And I'm getting all these symptoms of bloating and I'm not making any Blood and so I'm not bleeding and, it was not that difficult related to just starting some meat, stop eating as much sugar, and really make a few simple changes that for my body were really effective.   Tahnee: (12:28) And I'm not saying this works for everybody, but that was my specific pattern, I guess. But that was a lot easier for me to understand even then going, like I'd been to all these Western doctors who were doing all these tests and blood tests, and it just was confusing me because, I was kind of healthy but I wasn't. I wasn't having my monthly report card and all those things. So it was, yeah, it's an interesting ... I think the storytelling and the imagining of the organs and their roles, is a really powerful way to engage with the body and to really come into sort of a place of relationship with the body, which then I think builds to help anyway, because you're trusting and understanding the body more. That's my opinion on that one.   Clare Pyers: (13:09) Yeah I think you're definitely right on that. One of the common things that I see, in terms of that relationship with yourself is that, women, particularly in today's day and age, although we have been afforded somewhat of a break from that with our Corona virus interlude. But, women are really in a male dominated world and we're encouraged to, you know for many women you're working five days a week, plus the extra responsibility perhaps of children or other things that you've taken on board. And, it requires a lot of masculine energy to be able to run a life in such a full on way. Being at 80 to 90% capacity all the time, really takes a toll, and it's not the way that our female hormones are designed to work at their best.   Clare Pyers: (14:04) We really ... One of the ways that I encourage my patients to reflect on this idea is, to really embrace the idea of, what would lady Tahnee do? How would lady Tahnee do this? Like, if you were Royal, and the old school idea of royalty. Because I think modern day royalty have very full calendars and a lot of responsibility, a lot of pressure.   Tahnee: (14:30) Meghan Markle or something.   Clare Pyers: (14:32) Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But if you were a queen or a princess, and you just had to sit on your throne, and you could just kind of sip on tea and take long walks around your garden. You wouldn't be power walking around your garden and sculling your tea, and racing around. You'd be living a leisurely, peaceful, spacious existence. And even within the confines of a busy schedule and lots of responsibility, it's still possible to just connect with that idea of creating space, especially in the Heart. So from a Chinese Medicine point of view, and even when you look into female specific, Qigong, it's all centred around the Heart. So the Dantian is for men. Women very easily can get their Qi, their focus, their mind, their attention to their Dantian. But for women, our palace of glory from the Daoist point of view, is in our Heart, it's in the chest.   Clare Pyers: (15:43) And that's where we get a lot of a lot of binding, a lot of oppression, a lot of stuck energy. And if we can work out a way to experience the sense of spaciousness and release in this area, then it does a lot of benefit for our whole entire hormonal system, not just reproductive, but also thyroid and our digestion. So, pancreas and the other aspects of the hormonal system too.   Tahnee: (16:11) So we always call the pancreas, the 'spancreas'. Because it's kind of in the Chinese systems of the Spleen's body really. And I mean, I don't know if you know of Dan Ken's work, but he's actually arguing that the pancreas is a part of the spleen organ, like he's done some membrological work that would suggest that that could be true. But so when we're talking about that organ function, and that ability to sort of assist in regulating hormones, and I feel like Western Medicine is starting to get to this idea of like, the entire system, which was around a while ago, and then they kind of lost it and now it's back. But really like Chinese Medicine we're talking about the Heart as the emperor and as the brain, but then we've also got all these kind of sub brains, I suppose, that have responsibilities and roles to fulfil.   Tahnee: (16:59) And this Spleen, is obviously to kind of transform what we eat into this Qi that we need and also into Blood. And this is especially relevant for women, right? Because women are governed by Blood, so to speak. So, how does ... When we look at diet and we look at menstruation, and we look at women's hormones, and even things like insulin and the pancreas, and this kind of production or ... Because you know, I know a lot of women have issues with blood sugar and stuff as well. Is there stuff you see in clinical a lot, or what is sort of the common themes you see around the spleen and Blood and how that relates to women's health?   Clare Pyers: (17:36) Great question. And I'll bring it back to the example that you gave before with your own health and your own situation. So, it's quite common for me to see women who have amenorrhea,, and that could just be, they came off of the pill and their period never came back. Or there could have been a specific period of time that they noticed that they stopped having their period. And this idea of, everyone's going getting scans and getting tested, which is a great idea. But then, what's happening is that a lot of women are being diagnosed with polycystic ovaries.   Tahnee: (18:11) Misdiagnosed, you're right.   Clare Pyers: (18:13) And this ... Yeah. And this idea of amenorrhea in a woman who's not the typical, the classic old school diagnosis of polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is linked in with high testosterone, insulin resistance, excess weight around the tummy, maybe some facial hair, and that classic idea of insulin resistance. But then we've kind of transposed that onto this other set of women who are not overweight at all, in fact, a lot of them are underweight and they're not having periods, and maybe their hair is dropping. Maybe they've got some dry skin, yeah thinning hair. But we see these cysts on an ultrasound and we think, oh, that woman has polycystic ovaries so we treat it with insulin sensitising medication and, we just transfer it all across from this very different clinical picture to ... From one end of the extreme to the other.   Clare Pyers: (19:22) And these women instead of needing less insulin and less nourishment in their diet, they actually need more. And for some of these women, increasing their carb intake is what they need. A lot of the Blood tonic herbs and medicines that we use in Chinese Medicine are, they're fruits and they're very sweet. And a Blood tonic herbal formula is actually really quite yummy most of the time. Well, if you're into herbal medicine, I'm into herbal medicine. But you know, they're really yummy.   Tahnee: (19:55) Herbal medicine that's yummy.   Clare Pyers: (19:56) Yeah, we're not putting bitter-   Tahnee: (20:00) Yeah, pungent like [inaudible 00:20:01].   Clare Pyers: (20:02) Yeah, exactly. They're really nice tasting herbs. And so, I think that's a real trap of, when we're looking at digestion, that it's really easy to think a one size fits all diet approach, is what we need. We need to still be looking at, well what specifically is going on for this woman? And whether we're looking at it from a Chinese Medicine point of view, or from a Western medicine point of view, we need to be using that information, and assessing it for its merit, rather than having these preconceived ideas that, oh, I've got PCOS, I'm going to take Vitex. It's not going to work for a woman who's Blood deficient, it's not going to work if you're giving it to someone who is depleted because it has a very dispersing action.   Clare Pyers: (20:50) And people who are depleted need to be nourished. So from the idea of the Spleen, and Blood, and how we make Blood, and what our diet should look like, we need to be taking into account the entire picture of what's going on for a woman. So, if a woman is carrying extra weight, and has those kind of, the old school classic PCOS type of symptoms going on, you know drop down sugar intake-   Tahnee: (21:23) Yeah that's more your paleo style kind of.   Clare Pyers: (21:25) Yeah, yeah, go paleo. But if you need more Blood nourishing, then it needs to be a different approach. The Spleen is in charge of, of the sweet flavour and distributing the sweet flavour kind of goes to the Spleen. And we can also, as well as getting too much sweet food, which is, I guess the typical Western diet, is-   Tahnee: (21:54) Or the idiot that was eating like a packet of dates a day.   Clare Pyers: (21:58) Yes. Yeah, yeah.   Tahnee: (22:00) Healthy food.   Clare Pyers: (22:01) Yeah. But you know dates are a great Blood tonic and so part-   Tahnee: (22:04) In moderation though right.   Clare Pyers: (22:07) Oh yeah. You've got to also eat protein.   Tahnee: (22:11) Well, that's the thing I think people intuitively like, they crave sugar, it's like your body needs that. It's just it needs it in a form that it's absorbable and usable, and it's not just what we eat, but it's how we absorb it and transform it, right? Our chemical kind of magic of the Spleen, I think is one of the things that for me has really healed my relationship with food. It's like, I don't know, just coming to this like, like this little guy makes my body thrive. So I want to feed it well and nourish it.   Clare Pyers: (22:41) Yeah. And we need that good combo of protein and carbs, you can't just sit down with a packet of dates and hope for the best. There actually needs to be the building blocks of life, which is protein. And if we're not getting it from our diet then, your body starts to get it from wherever it can, which is your muscles and your internal organs, and the different tissues and fascia in your body. It doesn't leave your body in a position to be able to thrive. And really reproductive hormones and getting hormonal balance is all about being able to support life. For a woman it's about being able to bring another person into existence, which takes a lot of energy, and this is stuff that happened ... This is the leftover.   Clare Pyers: (23:27) We've got to run our Heart, we've got to run our Lungs, our brain, our digestive system, and really the hormonal system thrives when all of the rest is kind of taken care of. And so, when we're talking about optimising hormones, we really got to get a person's entire body into harmony, in order for the endocrine system to really be able to thrive. And so I guess that's where some of the complexity comes because, sometimes people are like, "I just want to fix my hormones. My digestion's screwed-"   Tahnee: (23:57) Not my life.   Clare Pyers: (24:00) Yeah like, "I don't want to change my life."   Tahnee: (24:03) I love working 60 hours a week, and running triathlons and not eating and it's like, cool.   Clare Pyers: (24:07) Yeah. So, we need to be realistic about what can be achieved by just kind of only focusing on one part. Sometimes we just have to come back to an understanding of what is actually going on in the body, and what's the purpose of our hormones.   Tahnee: (24:26) Yeah because I always think of sex hormones and, this is probably something we've talked about on the podcast before but, my partner and I talk about this all the time as it's, the sort of, you're only going to reproduce if you're thriving, that's sort of an evolutionary bias. And I mean obviously there's exceptions but, in general, that things have to be pretty harmonious for those things to be optimised so that, you know and the body feels safe to actually reproduce and that sort of makes a lot of sense to me from an evolutionary perspective. Like why would an undernourished girl menstruate if she's not going to have the Blood and the Qi to hold the child through?   Tahnee: (25:04) So it's sort of like a natural and intelligent design of the body. So when I started to think like that it made me realise, well, yeah, it's my job to nourish and support, and to really create the conditions where the balance, just occurs, almost on its own, and obviously there's lots of great medicines we can work with to get there faster. But, you do have to take some responsibility, I think at some point, and yeah change the flow. But yeah. And I mean, so that kind of brings me to the Liver I guess, I was just thinking because, that go, go, go kind of energy is really that strong Liver energy, like that expression and using your will to really get shit done.   Tahnee: (25:50) Which again is a very masculine energy, and also very prominent in our culture. And so many times when we look at hormonal issues, we are looking at issues with Blood stagnation and all, like you're saying, Yin deficiency or Yang deficiency, which can be Liver Yin and Yang deficiency, right? So, can you explain a little bit of how the Liver functions in terms of hormones and western and Chinese medicine if you like? But, a lot of people might know, but it'd just, yeah be good to get your take on that as well.   Clare Pyers: (26:18) Yeah, yeah. So the Liver really is in charge of, I guess, processing a lot of the hormone in the body. And so, if we're making a lot of oestrogen, if we're exposed to a lot of xenoestrogen, so this is from chemicals in your environment, chemicals that we choose-   Tahnee: (26:41) To put on ourselves.   Clare Pyers: (26:43) Yeah that we choose to put on ourselves that ingest, and exposure to things like plastics and things like that. A lot of those have an estrogenic effect on the body and, it just creates extra burden for the Liver. So our Livers are very, very busy in a modern day life, and that there's a lot of burden that's put onto the Liver. And so we need to pay close attention to the Liver from a western point of view and from a Chinese medicine point of view. And in addition to that, from a Chinese medicine point of view, it's not just the physiological aspects of what the Liver does, it's also those emotional and spiritual aspects.   Clare Pyers: (27:21) And part of that emotional, spiritual wellbeing of the Liver is, having that freedom of expression, especially around frustration and anger, and resentment. And things are definitely better now than what they were 20, 30 years ago, but women still, from a cultural and society point of view, are still not celebrated for speaking their truth and for being able to vent their frustrations. And this repressed anger, and repressed resentment, and smiling and nodding, instead of saying what you actually feel, and what is actually true for you-   Tahnee: (28:04) Or crying instead of being angry, like that was when I had to really work on.   Clare Pyers: (28:09) Yeah. That has it, it takes a real toll and it does manifest in in hormones for a lot of women. And so that's something that, I guess for the listeners, I really invite you to think about the ways in which you feel comfortable to express your anger and your frustration. A lot of women don't have the words for it, we have a lot of shame around this idea of being aggressive. We don't have this picture of, what does assertiveness look like in a woman? What does it feel like to be assertive? How can I be assertive without wanting to label myself as a bitch? And so I'm sorry if I'm not allowed to say that-   Tahnee: (28:50) No I was actually thinking it but I didn't want to interrupt you. Because it's like, yeah it's very true, a lot of women are afraid.   Clare Pyers: (28:56) Yeah. Yeah we're afraid of being called a bitch or aggressive. And, there's actually plenty of times where, it can be a very feminine thing to be assertive. Women often have their first experience of being assertive when they have young children. And you're trying to get out the door and you can become very assistive, and very effective in your communication when you're talking to a three year old, and you're trying to get them to put on their shoes, put your jacket on, we're getting out the door. That's a very assertive way of saying it. And when we get into mum mode, we can really embrace that. But for some women they're not at that particular stage of life, or they're choosing not to have that as part of their life. And so, there's other training grounds, I guess, but you need to create them a bit more for yourself.   Clare Pyers: (29:47) So the Liver is absolutely very important and, as we talked about before with the Spleen, there's times when the Liver is in excess and we need to do kind of more dispersing stuff, and that's where things like, milk thistle and things like that come into play. But then there's also a time in the Liver is weaker and needs to be nourished and supported. And that's where things like goji and schizandra can come in. And so we need to be mindful from a Western and a Chinese Medicine point of view, okay, well there's a problem with the Liver, what in particular is going on with the Liver, and how can we be targeted and specific? Rather than just going, everyone with Liver stuff gets milk thistle. Because it's highly inappropriate for so many people and the same with goji and schizandra and things like that.   Clare Pyers: (30:37) And so I think it's, we're clever people, we can apply this discernment in our thinking, when we're looking at the ways in which we treat our patients, if you're a practitioner, or the way that you can choose which types of herbs that you would like to take.   Tahnee: (30:57) You're working with.   Clare Pyers: (30:58) Yeah.   Tahnee: (30:58) So I mean, I didn't ask you to explain excess and deficiency before, but I wouldn't mind if you would just kind of touch on that idea for people. Because, yeah I just sometimes feel like these words maybe go over people's heads. So, you were talking about a Liver excess, or even just excess and deficiency in general, how would you be explaining that to the lay person coming into your clinic?   Clare Pyers: (31:23) Yeah. Well, that's a good question.   Tahnee: (31:26) Doozy for you. Sorry,   Clare Pyers: (31:27) Excess and deficiency in general, how about I start with that? So, I guess I often use the analogy of a river. And so, there can be lots of reasons why a river might not be flowing. But ultimately we want to be in flow, we want everything in our body to feel harmonious. And, that would be represented with a nice healthy river, that flows really well. And if the river is not flowing properly, then we need to fix it. And that's usually why people come to see me. And other practitioners is that, their river is not flowing properly. And so the river can get stuck, and filled with branches, and rocks, and all kinds of crap, debris, that's stopping the river from flowing properly. And that would be what we call an excess type of problem.   Clare Pyers: (32:20) So, there's extra stuff in the river that doesn't belong in that particular place, it belongs elsewhere in the world or elsewhere in the body, and so we need to support the body to be able to clear it out, send it back to where it belongs, so that the river can flow again once more. And those excess types of conditions, might manifest with things like, headaches and being really grumpy and, things that improve with exercise, things that improve with a nice cup of tea, things that, if we clear out some space, then you feel better.   Tahnee: (33:03) You usually get better, yeah.   Clare Pyers: (33:03) Yeah, yeah, generally speaking, it's difficult to describe in blanket terms.   Tahnee: (33:08) Yeah. But would you also put like detoxification in that category as well?   Clare Pyers: (33:13) Yeah, yeah. So a typical detox will be to get rid of excess. Then, we've got the other type of reason why a river might not be flowing, which is because there's not enough water in it. And so you just kind of get these patches of little puddles, but it's not really a properly flowing river and to be able to restore flow and harmony for that particular person, we need to fill them up. So we need to replenish them, refill the cup, and then their river will flow again once more. And so, things like nourishing diet, and having rest-   Tahnee: (33:47) And tonic herbs and those kinds of things.   Clare Pyers: (33:49) Tonic herbs and doing all the Yin things like in life is what will-   Tahnee: (33:54) Resting.   Clare Pyers: (33:55) I know, it's like a four letter word to some people, right? People like, "Tell me exactly, I'm just doing errands and I'm running around." I'm like, no, if you are not laying horizontal-   Tahnee: (34:06) Lie down.   Clare Pyers: (34:08) ... You're either on your couch or you're in bed, if you're not doing either of those things, you're not resting. So I've learned over the years, I have to be very specific-   Tahnee: (34:18) Black and white.   Clare Pyers: (34:18) Yes.   Tahnee: (34:20) R- E- S- T, yeah.   Clare Pyers: (34:28) Exactly, exactly. So, for those people, detox is not appropriate for those people, and they need replenishing, and rest, restoration. And so, that's where tonic herbs come into play, and those people will tend to feel better after having a sleep or a rest. A headache that doesn't get fixed with painkillers or the usual type of approach, it's a headache that gets better when you eat something, or a headache that gets better after you've had a sleep. And so that would be the way that you would identify if you've got some symptoms that I guess are deficient type symptoms.   Tahnee: (35:07) So, I think when we're talking about then hormones and looking at, I guess if we're looking at the women's menstrual cycle. So, if women are noticing at certain times that they're hitting, like say, I've spoken to a lot of people lately actually that are finding the luteal phase to be really long and kind of they're getting the PMS symptoms quite early and that sort of thing. So we'd be looking at someone who's Yang is deficient at that stage, is that kind of what-   Clare Pyers: (35:38) Yeah, more than likely. So if there's problems in the luteal phase, then usually speaking, if a woman's got a 14 day luteal phase, that's really great because, often that time between ovulation and menstruation can be shortened in women who are deficient. But it can be either, it's not just a hard and fast rule that all luteal phase problems are deficiency. But, yeah I would be looking more towards, what makes it better. And if it's ... Or what makes it worse. If it's worse after you have a fight with your partner, or if it's worse after a stressful day at work, or it's worse after you've done a workout, then that's all going to give clues as to whether ... The types of things that's going to improve it as well.   Clare Pyers: (36:37) But if there's problems all the way through the luteal phase, it's, I guess for me, the women that I see in my practise, usually they're really, they're just really depleted. It's almost like their body used up everything they had, to be able to get ovulation to happen, and then the body's like, okay, I'm done. I'm done. And a woman will experience that as you know like-   Tahnee: (37:00) It's become the princess.   Clare Pyers: (37:01) ... Yeah. Like sore tender breasts for like two weeks, and bloating for two weeks, and feeling grumpy or teary and emotional for two weeks, that's tough going. It's really tough going and often for those women they just need to dial things back and nourish themselves more. For a small amount of women, it's a combination of both as well. So particularly with women, for example, who have endometriosis, they can have a lot of problems being able to ovulate in the first place, especially if they've got a lot of endo-   Tahnee: (37:37) Like inflammation and stuff?   Clare Pyers: (37:38) Yeah. If there's endo on the actual ovaries, it's like their ovaries can't kind of breathe properly. And those women can have a lot of problems of excess and deficiency, and that's a little bit more complicated, and usually requires a lot of diet change as well as stress management, as well as herbal medicines so.   Tahnee: (37:58) I mean, I feel like people with endo need a practitioner just to really sort of guide them through and someone who's really sensitive. Like that's why TCM I think it's so great, because it looks at your unique pattern instead of, just kind of like oh endo is this, do this and do that. It's, obviously and that does not work so many times for people. You just got to go find someone who can really guide you through your healing journey, and help you understand what got you there. And then you've got the information not to get back to that place so. So when we're talking about menopause then, because this is one that we've been sort of, we're trying to do some podcasts on it actually, which we've got in the bank.   Tahnee: (38:39) But, yeah I just feel like it's a really common thing that I hear from women that they have pretty rough menopauses, and I always come back to evolutionary ideas, I'm like, how is it evolutionary beneficial for a woman to have a shitty, shitty, shitty time during menopause? It just doesn't make sense. It's the same with PMS, I'm like, why would nature give us PMS? It just doesn't make sense to me. And then when you learn about the Dao, like no nature does not give you PMS, our western culture gives you PMS, our behaviour gives you PMS. So I mean the same sort of thing with menopause. It's like, it's this accumulation of a lifetime of stress, and not listening, and going hard and then bang, big change, and women just do not have a great time sliding through that.   Tahnee: (39:24) So is that a kind of a ... Is there a moving into a more Yin phase and that's when we start to see like these things come up? Or is there a way you can describe that for us, that kind of embraces the TCM framework?   Clare Pyers: (39:35) Yeah, yeah. So look, I mean going into menopause is, you know it's a very important transition for women. And there are women out there who, are the very non vocal minority, who transitioned very easily through menopause, they don't have any symptoms at all, and they really do keep their mouth shut because, their friends and their colleagues have such an awful time, and they don't want to rub it in. And yeah. So, it's absolutely normal to just stop having periods, at an appropriate age. So we're talking about a woman who's around the age of 50, we're not talking about women who go into menopause at 40 because, my very strong belief is that that is just misdiagnosed, that it's amenorrhea. Because a lot of those women will see their periods return if they come and seek treatment for something else.   Clare Pyers: (40:32) So, if you have gone into menopause and you're not 50, then it's probably not menopause, it's probably just extended amenorrhea, regardless of what Blood tests say. A Blood test is just a snapshot in time.   Tahnee: (40:44) In time, yeah.   Clare Pyers: (40:46) Yeah. So I will preface it all by saYing that. And so I guess then we have to ask the question, what is the purpose of all of these symptoms? Why would nature come up with such a cruel set of symptoms? Insomnia and night sweats and, hot flushes during the day. And really we can trace things back quite a few years. It's not like a woman has perfect health leading up to menopause, and then all of a sudden starts experiencing these awful symptoms. Usually there's a very long lead up of some level of disharmony where the body has given out invitations along the way of, "Hey, I'm not happy, can we do something about this?" And it could be bloating, it could be period pain. Some women might have problems with fibroids, if we're talking about women's health in their 40s. And a lot of women at this age are kind of done with their families, and so they might just say, "Right, well, I'm just going to have an IUD put in. Because then I don't have to think about my contraception, and it's also going to sort out my heavy periods, and then I don't have to think about it anymore."   Clare Pyers: (41:58) Except then you do have to think about it at some stage down the track because all of a sudden you get smacked in the face with these really full on symptoms. So, there's an opportunity for women who are in their late 30s and early 40s, to really connect with their body and to get a sense of, what is it that my body really wants here? Do I need to be working five days a week? Is there a way that I can work less? Is there a way I can do less and conserve my energy for the things that really matter? And so, taking care of your adrenals and your Kidney energy, taking care of your Blood, taking care of your Yin are all things that are going to support an easier transition for a woman, as she transitions into a really important phase of her life. There's also a lot of cultural stigma around women over the age of 50.   Clare Pyers: (42:53) This idea of the wise old crone, we don't celebrate that. We dye our hair, we're 60 year old women who still have perfectly jet black hair, there's no framework within our society to celebrate the graceful ageing of women. It's slowly starting to change, but I think that as we embrace ageing, and as we celebrate wisdom in our older women, in our society, I think that that will also support an easier transition into menopause. But, it's the last big transition as a woman. We're born, that's like a massive thing that happens to us, we hit puberty, that's a massive thing that happens to us and there's lots of things that can go wrong or can go right. So we can correct a lot of things as in the transition to puberty, as well as things can go really wrong.   Clare Pyers: (43:51) The same with pregnancy. So for a woman, pregnancy can correct a lot of things for a woman, but it can also be a time when a lot of things go really wrong and stay wrong. And menopause is also another time where, if we have a really great environment around that transition, it can be an opportunity for a lot of really great healing to occur. And so, I think as for me, myself, as I get closer towards that age, I'm only 41 at the moment, I'm still a few years off, but I think I'll start to put some more attention towards creating resources for my patients to-   Tahnee: (44:32) And yourself.   Clare Pyers: (44:32) Yeah and myself, to have a better transition through menopause.   Tahnee: (44:38) Because I see a lot of thyroid stuff comes up as well, around that time. So can you explain a little bit about ... Because thyroid I feel like, I don't know, every time I mean I read something in functional medicine it's like, this new ideas about what's going on and how to test for it properly, and what you should really be doing and, so I'd love your take on what you see the thyroid's function is in the body and then, how that relates to transitions like menopause and, even because part of a lot of women have issues with the thyroid.   Clare Pyers: (45:08) Yeah. So the thyroid it's really the metabolism centre of the brain, it's like the great control switch that is in charge of a lot of things, it helps to transport energy into our cells, it helps to keep us warm, it helps to ... I guess it also helps with the flow of reproductive hormones and other hormones in our body. So if there's a problem with the thyroid, you can end up with Blood sugar problems, you can end up with menstrual problems, as well as problems with your sleep wake cycle. So, it affects everything, everything's all connected, the endocrine system, it's really difficult to separate out one part from another, the thyroid is very important. And the thyroid needs salt and iodine, to be able to make thyroid hormone.   Clare Pyers: (46:02) And so there ... Iodine is something that a lot of people don't get a lot of in their diet, and we're all told that salt is bad for us and so a lot of people are on this salt and iodine depleted diets, and wondering why their thyroid doesn't work so well. And so there are two things that are really easy to fix, really easy to fix is just have more salt and get some more iodine. And that can be a really supportive thing to do for your metabolism and for your hormonal health. And I guess from the point of view of the throat chakra, the thyroid is all about, being able to freely speak your truth. And so, coming back to what we touched on earlier, that's a really important thing for women in particular to get the hang of, is to, just to speak freely to allow that free flowing energy to happen through the thyroid and the throat area.   Clare Pyers: (46:59) In terms of, what happens around menopause and that transition, I guess there's a lot of pressure that's going on in the endocrine system and big fluctuations of progesterone and oestrogen as they're finding their new normal, and the adrenal glands take over in this time. So the adrenal glands, they kind of tick away in the background and have been the whole time and they create low levels of background hormone for us when we're in menstruating years and our child bearing years. But then, once the ovaries kind of shut up shop, say, right I'm done, I'm out of here, I've hit retirement.   Tahnee: (47:40) Vacay.   Clare Pyers: (47:41) Yeah.   Tahnee: (47:42) Bahamas.   Clare Pyers: (47:42) and the adrenal glands are continuing to create these low levels of hormones and, there's this beautiful relationship between the adrenal glands and the thyroid where they kind of ... They work in partnership to run our metabolism and our energy production. And so this is where we come to see our true debt I guess, to our adrenals and how much we've borrowed on credit, to be able to live the life that we have. And so if our adrenals are suffering, then the thyroid kind of has to pick up its game and that's ... And if your thyroid has been unhappy also from years of not having enough iodine, not having enough salt and eating a low carb diet and not speaking your truth, then the whole thing just kind of goes kablamo.   Clare Pyers: (48:35) And so that's where supporting the adrenals and just being judicious with the way that you spend your energy is really important to being able to maintain that thyroid health during the menopausal transition, just to make things a lot easier. And some women find that, a lot of women will develop thyroid issues around that time, and for a lot of women they end up on thyroid hormone replacement, and that can provide a lot of relief for women who are going through menopause. Who otherwise would end up on HRT or higher doses of HRT than they need to be on.   Tahnee: (49:16) So just, I'm conscious of time but I just wanted to quickly touch on the autoimmune sort of side of that because, that seems to be incredibly common now, that Graves and Hashimoto’s, those, both sides. Do you have a sort of lens on that for your work on what's actually going on? Is it just what we've been talking about? Too much, not enough, kind of that's the either side of it or is there, a little bit more nuance to it than that or? Because it's something I feel like-   Clare Pyers: (49:48) For a lot of people there's ... It comes back to the gut. And for a lot of people their gut is really not, it's not in good shape at all. And it's easy for people to collect these low grade, lingering infections as they go along through life. And it could be some type of gastro bag or Bali belly type of thing that someone gets and they never really quite felt the same afterwards. But for some people, there's not necessarily a particular event that they can pinpoint. But, an infection can find its way to the thyroid and can start attacking the thyroid. And it may not necessarily show up in Blood tests. So, there was a study I looked at, was very cool, was never reproduced and it was someone somewhere in Scandinavia.   Clare Pyers: (50:40) And he basically did a biopsy of all of his patients' thyroids, if they had symptoms of low thyroid, regardless of what their Blood test said, he did a biopsy on all of them and found that all of them had antibodies, they had thyroid antibodies there, and he treated them with thyroid hormone and all of them got better. And this is regardless of what their Blood test said, he just went based on symptoms and I'm like, wow, that's really cool. But no one has done it since so it's kind of not reproduced and so therefore it doesn't have a lot of scientific significance. But it's a very cool idea. And it does demonstrate that there can be problems with your thyroid that are not going to show up on Blood tests.   Clare Pyers: (51:20) So it is important to look at other metrics such as, your basal body temperature and how you maintain your body temperature through the day, and your heart rate as well. How does your heart rate change across the day? Does your heart rate improve or go down with eating? And what happens across the day. And there's a lot of very cool information from a guy called Ray Pete, who talks a lot on that.   Tahnee: (51:45) He's the guy that does the orange juice and ice cream diet.   Clare Pyers: (51:48) Orange juice and ice cream.   Tahnee: (51:50) I was really into him for a while because I was like, this sounds amazing. It didn't work for me.   Clare Pyers: (51:55) It sounds amazing. Yeah so there's, yeah so that idea of being able to, I guess support your thyroid in that way is very cool. But from what I see with my patients with Hashimoto's and Graves disease, a lot of them do have that low grade lingering infection, as part of what drives their antibody process. And so, more and more over the last few years I've been seeing a lot of success with my patients who have autoimmune thyroid disease and other autoimmune diseases, with addressing that, kind of that triad of, the autoimmune, whatever is happening with the actual organ, and then also the gut, and then also the immune system overall.   Clare Pyers: (52:38) And as we know as practitioners, if you've got one autoimmune disease, you're more likely to get another, there's lots of links between things like, autoimmune thyroid disease and autoimmune infertility. There's lots of links between thyroids and endometriosis, there's lot of links between celiac as well as rheumatoid arthritis, and celiac and ... Yep, there's so many autoimmune diseases now that are classified. And so it's definitely a very exciting and emerging area of medicine, and for practitioners who can do a really good job in identifying and treating autoimmune conditions, they're the ones who are going to be seeing the greatest success with their patients in the years to come, because it's becoming a really important part of clinical practise.   Tahnee: (53:29) Yeah. That's exciting that it's becoming more recognised too because I think even probably 10 years ago people were just suffering and didn't really ... It was just less clear what was going on but there's a lot more information out there now.   Clare Pyers: (53:42) Yeah. And that's probably a whole other episode, is all on gut and-   Tahnee: (53:45) Yeah if we can-   Clare Pyers: (53:45) ... Autoimmunity.   Tahnee: (53:47) Yeah, immunity.   Clare Pyers: (53:48) Yes. And we didn't even talk about men today either.   Tahnee: (53:52) Well I was going to say it'd be great to get you back on to do a men's, I think they do deserve their own podcast, [inaudible 00:53:59] speaking.   Clare Pyers: (53:59) They definitely do.   Tahnee: (54:01) Yeah and exciting that you're working on a book, right? So we can maybe wait for that to be finished, and then we can, yeah, jump on about that. But yeah, just wanted to say thank you, I feel like that was just a really awesome snapshot for people to just sort of start to merge these two sides of, I guess broad views, I suppose, of like the Western and the Chinese. Because so many people we speak to see a GP, but then they'll also be interested in that oriental, I guess lens of health. And so, yeah I think it's a really useful place to start bridging that information.   Tahnee: (54:35) So if you guys really enjoyed today, I would recommend Clare's podcast and her book. If you are a practitioner, I cannot tell you again, this is really good. And actually a lot of this stuff, how you've got all the descriptions of sort the Chinese patterns, that are associated with the different levels, I feel like that's just such a useful way to think about things and it's ... My partner and I always do our Bloods once a year and go through all this and see what's happening. But it's been really, right?   Clare Pyers: (55:03) Yeah.   Tahnee: (55:03) It's just a great, happy to have a book honestly for us, us nerds. But yeah, we've also got your website, so clarepyers.com, we will put your links and everything on our website but it's C- L- A- R- E P- Y- E- R- S.com. Do you do social media or anything else like that Clare? Do people find you on Facebook or?   Clare Pyers: (55:23) I'm very shy on social media, I post occasionally. Please give me encouragement if you see me post anything on Instagram or Facebook.   Tahnee: (55:32) You're a clut.   Clare Pyers: (55:33) Yeah. Yeah I'm there occasion, I hang out, yeah.   Tahnee: (55:36) Yeah, okay. And if people want to reach you, you have a clinic in Melbourne is that right?   Clare Pyers: (55:40) Yeah. So my clinic's in Prahran, and I see patients from all around the world actually. I see patients locally as well as online.   Tahnee: (55:48) Oh cool, via Zoom or something like that, yeah.   Clare Pyers: (55:51) Via whatever works at the moment, whatever the internet dictates. So I've been doing a lot of FaceTime this week.   Tahnee: (55:58) Oh yeah of course, yeah. Well and I guess everyone's internets are behaving weirdly in this time.   Clare Pyers: (56:03) Yes, indeed.   Tahnee: (56:05) Okay, great. Well yeah I hope if you need support you can reach out to Clare, or find someone similar who knows what Clare knows. I don't think there's anyone out there, but yeah. So thank you so much again for your time Clare, we really appreciate it and look forward to chatting to you again soon.   Clare Pyers: (56:20) Thanks for having me on, it was great to be here and I look forward to coming back soon.

Mason is thrilled to welcome Rhonda Chang to the podcast today. Rhonda is a traditional healer who specialises in the art and healing principals of yinyang wuxing. After becoming disillusioned during her studies in Traditional Chinese Medicine, in her native home of China, Rhonda decided to go her own way. Straying from the path of convention to re-educate herself through the exploration and deep analysis of the classical texts. After 30 years of research and practice Rhonda published two books: Chinese Medicine Masquerading As Yi — A Case of Chinese Self-colonisation and Yinyang Wuxing Spirit, Body & Healing, and continues to raise awareness around the true origin and principals of Classical Chinese Medicine. Today's chat is truly eye opening and informative. Rhonda is a rebel with a cause, and it is an absolute delight to have her with us, sharing her wisdom and knowledge with integrity and conviction.   Mason and Rhonda discuss: The difference between Classical Chinese Medicine and Modern Chinese Medicine, which otherwise known as Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) The concept of 'Yi'. Wuxing - Five Element Theory. Rhonda's process of "de-colonising" herself from the standardised TCM curriculum she was originally trained in. Symptoms vs diagnoses; how Westernised TCM is still operating within a symptom based ideology. Rhonda's top tips for wellness.   Who is Rhonda Chang? For the past 40 years Rhonda Chang has been involved in the study and practice of traditional healing. The journey has been long and tortuous. Rhonda began her studies at the Beijing College of Traditional Medicine. After graduation Rhonda worked as a physician at a number of hospitals in China. In 1986 she migrated to Australia and opened her own treatment clinic.  Rhonda operated her clinic up until 2012, where she felt that government regulation was overly restricting her practice of healing and that the professionalisation of TCM in Australia had subordinated it to modern medicine. Since then Rhonda has focused her energies on writing books and promoting a return to traditional YinYang Wuxing healing principles.   Resources: Rhonda Website Rhonda Podcast Rhonda Books   Rhonda Facebook Group   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:00) Hey, Rhonda. Thanks so much for joining me.   Rhonda: (00:03) Pleasure. Thank you.   Mason: (00:05) Now, I don't often get nervous when I'm doing podcast interviews, but I'm... like, I didn't really tell you, I showed you that I've got your book sitting here with me. But I'm a real big fan of your work.   Rhonda: (00:20) Thank you.   Mason: (00:20) And ever since I first heard that podcast that you did on Qiological, which I'd stopped listening to Qiological a long time ago. I was still subscribed, but then the Chinese Medicine masquerading As Yi came up, and I was like... It got something awake in me because I had this consistent disappointment with Chinese medicine and I'm studying more of the Daoist path of medicine, but want to interact with Chinese medicine today, as it is, and kept on becoming disappointing and finding something disingenuous about it and you informed me about what that inkling is.   Mason: (01:01) So first, off the bat, thank you so much for that. Can you explain the difference between Chinese medicine and even, like, what the term Yi means?   Rhonda: (01:11) Yi, yeah. I call that an ancient Chinese healing called a Yi. Which, I mean, they translate Yi in English as medicine, but there's so much difference. There's a fundamental difference in theory, the understanding life, everything. So that's why I call them a Yi, I don't like to call them medicine. They're not really equivalent to Western terms of medicine.   Mason: (01:37) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (01:38) Well, what a difference. Yi is... You know, Chinese medicine is created after 1950s. And the Communist Party actually took over China and they want to change everything because... I mean, it's not just Chinese Communist Party did it, it was actually from 1900, early 1900, after Opium War and China defeated and then they also did change in China.   Rhonda: (02:04) I mean, especially, I think, the contribution was America actually started to get all the young Chinese students going to America to study because the theory is these people going back, they will be the leaders of the country. And then they will... You know, kind of favour our country, our philosophy, our beliefs. So they did, and these people, later in... You know, like mid-1900, China was like internal wars and so many parties and the communists and the National Party and all this kind. But they all believe in science.   Rhonda: (02:43) So everyone... When they established the government, they want to ban Chinese medicine. And then when Mao took over and he said, "No, I'm not going to ban it, I'm going to modify them." So that's where they come from, the modern Chinese medicine. What they modified is they got rid of the theory. A lot of people are telling me, they say, "Why hasn't Chinese medicine always talk about Yinyang Wuxing ." But they talk about Yinyang Wuxing, which is completely different to what Yinyang Wuxing was in traditional ancient Chinese healing, the meaning.   Rhonda: (03:20) So what happened is they... What modern Chinese medicine do is that they recognise your body as anatomy and physiology and pathology and disease, exactly everything to Western medicine. And then they try to match the traditional healing technique, like formulas, acupuncture needle points. So then they match this, they say, "Oh, that description, just like a modern disease. What is it?"   Rhonda: (03:49) So then they actually kind of make a little bit of complicated, say. There was a wet disease and there was a... pneumonia, for example. There was a wet pneumonia, there was a dry pneumonia, there's a hot pneumonia, there's a cold pneumonia. And then they made up all different formulas for it, and then people just matching. But for a practitioner, you don't understand how this formula came about and you don't know how to apply them. You're just guessing. And if it doesn't work, you're paralysed because you say, "Oh, well, you know, the ancient people hasn't met this kind of cases."   Rhonda: (04:25) So wanting the traditional yi was, I mean, they don't really... there's no... I mean, the body recognised as the ba gua, if you heard of it. And that's what... what do you call the... Meridians. Meridians is a ba gua. You know, I was calling you before and there was a [inaudible] and Dìqiú. What is [inaudible]? [inaudible] is the sun position to the Earth, and they go square. East to west, isn't it? And north to south. So that's made a square. So then they call the Earth is square.   Rhonda: (04:58) A lot of people say Chinese old people didn't understand, they think the Earth is square. It's not that sense, it's the sun made our sense of direction. If there's no sun, then you don't really know where the west, left, and there's nothing, isn't it?   Mason: (05:13) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (05:14) So that's what is the [kin der 00:05:15] and Dìqiú, which is the time of the Earth rotate themself and around the sun. So that's a time. And these two work together and make a big difference to how your body is and how you actually live. Say like, the sun may be in the right, say mid-day, but on the... you know, it could be summer. It could be winter, isn't it? So that actually make difference, too.   Rhonda: (05:43) So that was what medicine made kind of a understand your body. How you actually responding to the sun position, because a lot of people say, "Oh, we're not really kind of to do with the sun." But you do. You sleep at night because the sun is down, and you wake up in the morning because the sun is up." And even in the cold days, even in the cloudy day. So your body actually responding to the sun, the moon. The reason is the sun give you the heat, the Yang Qi we call it. And the moon, what they do, is the moon waves your Water.   Rhonda: (06:19) So when the Earth and the moon and the sun in the same line and what happen is the tide go high. So that's why your body... Your body's 75% the water, isn't it? So you're responding to that. And according to when you're born and you have different constitution. And then that's why you're waving the external differently. So then we work out how that your body actually responding to the sun, the moon, the so-called Meridians. That's what the time is. And then your internal organ is... What do you call that? We call that direction or wuxing. Well, wuxing is when the sun first rising or in the spring, what happened is that you, the Wood started.   Rhonda: (07:05) Your not is a first thing, isn't it? The Wood start growing. And now we say that's the Wood, that's your Liver, and your Liver responding to that. And then the... You know, like a longest day of the year, which is in that time, summer, and you're body actually responding to your Heart. And you can't help it, you're just responding to that because, you know, that make your hot... make you active, isn't it?   Rhonda: (07:32) Make your Heart desire. Yes. So then the winter, shortest day in the winter, and that was what we call... And your body also responding to that. That's your Water. So the Water actually go downward, and that's when you kind of go down. Yeah. So this is the medicine, traditionally. So how that work with your body is because in different times, because your body responding to the sun, the moon, and the time, so your body actually move around.   Rhonda: (08:07) We recognise that where they go. This is also not imaginary. It's also the sun always come from the East and going down from the west, isn't it? So your body responding the same way, and you're going... so the Meridian, actually running around like this, and the back and the forth. You know, the front. So then we recognise this is the point, and then when you have a problem, that means that you don't respond. Because you're part of our Earth, really. You're living on it. You cannot help it, to be effective.. That what we say. The heavens, Earth, and the people are in the one line. So you can't actually get away from it.   Rhonda: (08:49) But if people actually get in kind of, say, mood problem, so we say your Spirit blocked. So you don't respond, you can't connect to the... What do you call that? The spirits of the Heaven and the Earth. Yeah. So now if you have, like, a physical problem and one that doesn't really connect, you feel the pain. And that's why you feel sick.   Rhonda: (09:12) So what we do is from acupuncture point, you can actually choose your time. So your time, you just have to go slow, so then you choose your time with the acupuncture. And then with the herbs, and somebody just wrote me a email, says, "How do you say Yinyang Wuxing terms? How do you say these plants actually can help your... What do you call it? Like I said, Liver. Animals Liver, and it can help your Liver."   Rhonda: (09:38) So what Yinyang Wuxing terms in that? I said... I haven't replied, but I'm going to write a little blog about it. And you see, your Spleen, we call that, or your stomach, or your... What do you... The Heart, in our terms is all about Yin and Yang. So Yin and Yang in the Heart, which is Fire, you know? The nature of Fire, rise, isn't it? And the nature of the Water sink. So the plants, which have the same nature as your Heart and they also benefit your own Heart. Because they got the same Yin Yang nature. And the Water, the same.   Rhonda: (10:20) So if you have a Kidney problem, and then this plants or anything around you exist which have that same kind of nature, and you can use them either to rise your Water or to kind of increase your Water. And that's how so-called nutrition, but we don't really look at a nutrition point, you see? Everything is Yin Yang, you see. There's no thing says that, you know, you've got to eat vitamins or proteins or sugar to benefit you. It might, but in our terms you got to actually benefit your Yin and Yang. And so if your kidney have a problem, I mean, the Kidney is naturally a Water organ so they're kind of a cold.   Rhonda: (11:07) So for Yin and Yang, they need a heat. So then you need something warm for the Water, and you choose some plants, like cinnamon, and aconite. They're actually very, very hot and warm for the Water. So you add that in there, and then your Water rise in your body. And that's what I treat for edoema. That people have a edoema, and you use that. It's very, very well. Very, very effective, powerful. So that's what difference are. You don't recognise the body as the anatomy. So whatever disease... I wrote a little... what do you call it? E-book on this coronavirus. Because [crosstalk 00:11:45].   Mason: (11:45) Oh, you did? Cool.   Rhonda: (11:45) Yeah. The people say, "You haven't made this disease, how can you treat it?" So what you do is you actually look at a symptom and you interpret it into Yinyang Wuxing because fever comes so quickly, seems develop very fast. What I mean, it's the Fire, isn't it? So how do you put a Fire down? You actually Water control with Fire, isn't it? So you increase Water, and I choose a lot of herbs which are really kind of cool, and the Water, increase Water quality. So then you treat it.   Rhonda: (12:18) I mean, recently, I had a girl actually ask me what to do and she had a very bad fever and I think she tested negative, but she took some packet from my book, she got a formula, and then she took, like, three-packet-in-one in kind of two days. Her fever dropped like within 12 hours. Everything disappeared. 12 hours. Finished.   Rhonda: (12:43) Clear. Sorry?   Mason: (12:47) Did she have a COVID infection? Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (12:48) No, not... she just had a kind of fever, infection. You know, sore throat, runny nose, [crosstalk 00:12:53] maybe. I said, "It doesn't matter, it's COVID or anything because we don't really treat the disease." [crosstalk 00:13:00]   Mason: (13:00) Yeah, right. That's the same as going... you know, when we say "liver," we're not saying liver with a little L talking about the anatomical liver.   Rhonda: (13:09) Yeah, when we talk about Liver, we're not talking about anatomical liver, but we talk about Wood. We talk about our flexibility, and we talk about our strength. That's what a Liver does, what Wood does. Wood actually flexible, and firm.   Mason: (13:24) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (13:24) So that's what we're talking about. So if you actually... You know, somebody kind of timid, you know, very scared for always that it's Liver with the Yang then, it's because they're not straight enough, so they're not firm enough. Isn't it?   Mason: (13:36) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (13:37) So if somebody actually get kind of really angry, you know, very easy hot temper, so what we say, " lose the flexibility," so we say it's your Liver Yin problem. So we don't talk about a disease at all, we talk about a Liver as a Wood. And when we talk about the Heart, we talk as Fire. So the Fire... They're floating, but if they do float above the ground, they're not grounded. It's weird, isn't it? So what you do, you need to ground them. And that's where we work. So we don't really... I mean, like, somebody palpitated, you know, it really is always the Heart rising. And that's Fire in the Heart, it's floating.   Rhonda: (14:17) So what you do, you use a oyster shell and... What do you call it? Abalone shell and what do you call it? A mother of pearl.   Mason: (14:26) Pearl, mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (14:27) You ground them. You ground the Fire. And it works. I mean, people that you listen to and they say, "Use this shell," they don't even dissolve Water, so you drink the tea, what that do? There's the calcium, but the calcium doesn't dissolve in the Water that you use, and you don't use it, absolutely a difference. And I remember that somebody read this somewhere, she read it and she said she got some kind of a cyst in her uterus and as she read some modern Chinese medicine report, said, "Oyster shells can actually dissolve this cyst."   Rhonda: (15:05) So she asked me to give her 90 grams. Normally, I use 30 grams. I did, myself. But anyway, there's no problem. I know that would be too heavy, but she didn't think of it, so I did 90 gram.   Mason: (15:18) Yeah.   Rhonda: (15:19) And then she said she couldn't really... She couldn't move. She just feels sick and doesn't want to move. Lazy, heavy. It's hard to see. So that's what difference. Yeah.   Mason: (15:33) I mean, the difference is so huge. And I think I underestimate how big the difference... And say, for myself, growing up in a Western society, which is fundamentally reductionist and fundamentally compartmentalises things, and then I'm given this Watered-down Chinese medicine and it's kind of like, as you've said in your book, it's like an ornamental Chinese medicine. And the Western approach, the pathology approach, the anatomical approach has this patronising nature due to the self-colonisation of Chinese medicine, right?   Rhonda: (16:14) Yes.   Mason: (16:15) So can you help me with my pronunciation? Is it in the '50s, what really dropped it for me was that there was... it's, this is a new medicine, you know? This is a new experimental type of medicine that's a fusion of some Chinese principles with Western. Is it [inaudible 00:16:31]? [inaudible 00:16:32]?   Rhonda: (16:32) Say it again?   Mason: (16:33) [inaudible 00:16:33]?   Rhonda: (16:33) Oh, [inaudible 00:16:44], yeah. [inaudible 00:16:34] is that right? No?   Mason: (16:42) Yeah. Yeah, the...   Rhonda: (16:43) [inaudible 00:16:44], yes, yes, sorry. Yeah.   Mason: (16:45) My pronunciation is so terrible.   Rhonda: (16:46) That's all right. That's all right.   Rhonda: (16:49) [crosstalk 00:16:49], yeah. [inaudible 00:16:49], yeah. [inaudible 00:16:51]   Mason: (16:52) That's what absolutely blew it out of the water for me, and so the way I kind of... I will use, say... I will refer to TCM, Traditional Chinese medicine, when referring to the [inaudible 00:17:04] [crosstalk 00:17:06].   Rhonda: (17:06) Yeah, [inaudible 00:17:06]. Yeah.   Mason: (17:07) Classical Chinese medicine when talking about Yi, and I don't know whether that's... how useful that is or not, but going in your book you kind of see that there's reference from some experts talking about half-baked Chinese Medicine, and a real Chinese Medicine. So all of a sudden I start realising that all universities here, all universities in China are teaching an experimental 70-year-old medical system that is...   Rhonda: (17:37) 60, yes.   Mason: (17:38) 60, right. 60-year-old medical system that is completely watered down, and...   Rhonda: (17:45) Very much.   Mason: (17:46) The fact you've talked about it, you just nailed on the head, they think it's just harmless that we go, "Look, let's just get the best of both worlds, the best of Western Medicine and the best of Chinese Medicine." But they are completely in... You can't put them together. And you cannot lay them on top of each other in any way, and you said there that they've gone, "Well, let's just start compartmentalising symptoms to make it easier for everybody." [crosstalk 00:18:15]   Rhonda: (18:15) And it's not easy, because it's not reliable. So, I mean in the book I say that there were some Chinese Medicine students says, you know, what do you call it, they knew Chinese ways like a fly bumping into the window. It's bright, but no future. And it's so true, it's so bright but there's no future. Because it's just fake, it doesn't work, because how do you really work on a different philosophy and then you're using a different kind of practise? So they're definitely not matching. And they actually decided to make it the best of two world, but actually they made it a worse of the two worlds. You know.   Mason: (18:56) Right?   Rhonda: (18:56) It's just so terrible.   Mason: (19:00) Well, because they don't actually... as you're saying, that style of medicine, the fake Chinese Medicine, TCM, which is being taught doesn't follow a logical scientific pathology based approach.   Rhonda: (19:10) No, that's right.   Mason: (19:11) Which can work in its own right, and for its intention. And it definitely doesn't follow Yinyang Wuxing principles.   Rhonda: (19:19) No, that's right.   Mason: (19:20) And it doesn't necessarily work. It's kind of flying in the dark. You see these studies come about, going, "We're studying the use of this formula for a cold, headache, due to blah blah blah." So it's like, straightaway we're in a symptom-based approach.   Rhonda: (19:38) Yeah.   Mason: (19:39) And they're basically trying to see what percentage...And some different formulas are going to have a different percentage of effectiveness based on the symptom, but they're like, this formula, what percentage can we accidentally lower the symptoms by using this formula? Right? Like, that's kind of like the only way I can see it, and I'm just like, it's... I get it, because it's so tempting to use anatomy and use pathology.   Rhonda: (20:10) Yes.   Rhonda: (20:11) And the problem is, it's not reliable. I actually trained the same way. I train exactly as... What do you call the modern Chinese Medicine who go through this university, that was the first time when China... You know, after the revolution, they reopened the university. I mean, during the revolution they stopped all the education, university, for nine years, I think. And then they re-opened, that's the time I actually got into university. I learned Chinese Medicine, and I was looking for some kind of traditional arts, you know, like philosophy, and absolutely nothing. And then there's nothing they explain. It's like, it makes sense.   Rhonda: (20:48) And I used to question the teacher and the teacher gave me a dirty look, and everybody look at me dirty, because they think, you know, "What do you know? Why do you really always getting in trouble?" So now I stop listening, and now I start writing stories no matter in the class.   Rhonda: (21:03) So after finish, you become a practitioner. And you're in the hospital. People come in for real sickness, you know? I remember I was in Beijing, a little country... Country... what do you call that? Like, a hospital. And the people... actually, the farmers, are travelling like 100K or 30K and in that time, they didn't have a car, kind of on the horse or on the... You know, so slow and all the track go "boom, boom, boom," and [inaudible 00:21:32].   Rhonda: (21:33) And then they come here 5:00 in the morning and they get a ticket and then they're waiting for you to treat it. And I thought, you know, you can't really just fool these people, you've got to fix them isn't it? So I start to learn myself. I learn actually from... You know, I follow the field of old people who didn't have a degree, you know?   Rhonda: (21:56) But they trained in the... Like, family train. But then they didn't really teach me enough, so I just got some of these formulas, and now I just thought of the formulas. I've got to be able to modify them. I mean, how did they create these formulas? So now I start to kind of try myself, because you're here... Because I read about traditional texts. In those days, not many available. You can't even get a proper whole Neijing publish.   Mason: (22:30) Whoa, that level of suppression.   Rhonda: (22:30) Yeah, it was very bad. And so you don't... I never really heard about Bagua until I came to Australia, you know, believe it or not. And... Yeah, so you couldn't really... you don't get too many sources for that. I kind of from here, there, I guess, here, and I was very... I mean, a good practitioner because I did kind of pay attention to it, and over the years of course I learned more role and now try more, so I get each kind of so-called problems overcome.   Rhonda: (22:57) And now when I'd done all this, I thought I'd better in teaching, we're told that all these disease you can't treat and how did I treat it? So I actually started, I thought there's something wrong with our teaching. I said, "All I did for 30 years I've been kind of training myself. If I was trained in university..." And I, actually, during the training myself, I had to overcome my education, so I called it decolonise myself.   Rhonda: (23:26) Because they colonised me, and then they gave me all this wrong information and you can't get away from it, you know? Like, people come in with a cancer and you go oh, cancer is damp heat. And you've got to use some cooling herbs, you got to really... You know, kind of things are breaking down. It didn't work, really. So what do you do? I mean, I know so many people who have been through all these Chinese doctors.   Rhonda: (23:51) I won't say they killed them, but they definitely not help. So what they did is they give you so much cooling herb, with a cancer what happens, you don't have your own heat. You don't have your own force to fight anymore. You've got to give them warm herbs. Of course you've got to clean up, you know? You've got to have herbs that... Like a rotten tree, you've got to chop them up, you know? Get rid, clean up, but at the same time you've got to nurture them and you've got a renew... What do you call that, leaves, isn't it? New trunks. So you've got to use warm herbs, and with it, with clean Water.   Rhonda: (24:24) But nobody doing that, so I thought, "I might actually get this sorted out and that's why I did a Ph.D. Little bit late and writing this book. So this is a masquerade, this book, it's during my Ph.D. study and eventually I produced this book. And then after that... After that...   Mason: (24:44) The book is amazing. The book is amazing. Every... it's so thorough.   Rhonda: (24:49) It's because, really, it took me eight years to get this delineated because it's so hard to make a clean... You know, everyone know what I write. Actually, my husband's being like my supervisor almost. And he read it, and he says, "What do you mean?" You know, "Why do you use Chinese..." Because he can't help it. You can't simply bring yourself into Chinese Medicine. So then I actually eventually decided not using Chinese Medicine anymore, I've got to use a different term because it was just so different. I don't want to mix up.   Rhonda: (25:20) And I was so angry about this kind of mixing up, because... You know, you waste your life going to university and waiting six years, you know, five years to study and a year in the hospital. And then you come out, and you land a fake thing. And then you have to... I mean, it took me years to just clean myself out and then try to re-learn. So I thought, "I must really write this and let people know about it." And I send to China publish, they wouldn't publish, of course. Yeah.   Rhonda: (25:52) I mean, [inaudible 00:25:53] but maybe in the future better because at the moment everybody who in this field in China who has authority, who has power, they all contribute into [inaudible 00:26:05] in Chinese, right? Of course they wouldn't let my voice out. So but it doesn't matter, so I thought, "I let them out here first and then eventually I'll get them there." Because...   Mason: (26:15) You'll get there.   Rhonda: (26:15) It's so savvy, not to get people learning this fake thing also. I was so angry. I'll write this book really with my patient. People deserve to know this, you know this. It took me, really, eight years, yeah, to get this cleared out and sold it up. And then traced out why they did that. I mean, it's a psychological kind of problem behind that, that was... I call them a self-colonising movement, you know, in China. Yeah. So that's... Yeah, it's very, very important, I think, to get knowing that. And then followed by that, and the people said, "Then what? I mean, how do we learn the tradition?" And so I thought I'll write another book about it, how I did it, you know? What I did. So that's what the second book is about, yeah.   Mason: (26:58) And the second book, the Yinyang Wuxing, Spirit Body and Healing?   Rhonda: (27:03) Yeah, that's right. Now I'm working on the third one, which actually going to talk about how this yinyan was in all this... The term was come about. Because these things, even if you read the traditional Chinese text, and like classical Chinese, it's very difficult to understand those books because of all the things that they take for granted that we know, that we don't. So when you read it, you feel like you go, "What are you reading?"   Mason: (27:31) Yeah.   Rhonda: (27:31) You can read the word, but you don't understand the meaning.   Mason: (27:34) Well, that's why I especially liked that the Yinyang Wuxing book is... I pick up several copies of Neijing and enjoy it and quite often I walk away going, "I read it, and I theoretically get it, but it was... the essence [crosstalk 00:27:51]."   Rhonda: (27:51) How do you apply? You can't apply, because actually, if you really start learning that from beginning, beginning how there's a Yin Yang above, how there's a wuxing what's come from, and then that's all about... Like, we call that, "Looking on the sky." You know, the stars. And then looking on the ground, say, what happens when the star in position or the sun, the moon, and Jupiter, where they're positioned and where we are.   Rhonda: (28:17) So then to actually form, and then the words, a lot of them, I thought about that, and then in the Neijing a lot of numbers, how many [inaudible 00:28:26], how many time.... it's so different time to ask you now to what we're using, so I am writing them, the current book, I'm writing to convert all this, the equivalent of what all that means.   Rhonda: (28:39) And then when you read a traditional textbook, you understand. So that's my first book, in the next one. And I'm actually a series of it, and then another one, which is herbs. How do you recognise herbs? And how the actual Yin Yang okay? So how you choose them when you actually use them. Because at the moment, you're looking at herb books, a lot of them say, "It's for Kidney, for Kidney." But Kidney is rarely... from a Kidney Yin and kidney Yang is completely different. So you've got to actually understand, so in what way it work for Kidney.   Rhonda: (29:13) And like, diagnose a sickness. "Oh, they call that a Kidney deficiency." What is Kidney deficient? That's the only half-words. You've got to make sure, they said, is it a Yin or is it a Yang. You know, and that makes big different, how you practise. Yeah.   Mason: (29:28) Well, let's go into that a little bit. You mentioned how it's sad that people think they're learning something authentic and they're actually learning something fake, which it's then... I like your work because you're providing a solution, because if there's no solution for where to point yourself, if you're an acupuncturist, and you just have to acknowledge that you studied something just new, you know? And it's not what you thought it was, there's a bit of an existential crisis sometimes, you resist knowing because you are an expert and you had these skills and the institution told you you had the ability [crosstalk 00:30:05].   Rhonda: (30:05) Yes, very much.   Mason: (30:05) [crosstalk 00:30:05] this and that, but you don't.   Rhonda: (30:08) Especially if you have a little bit of position, you know?   Mason: (30:09) Oh, yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:10]   Rhonda: (30:10) In that name. [crosstalk 00:30:10]   Mason: (30:10) Yeah, love the name as well.   Rhonda: (30:13) Yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:13]   Mason: (30:13) Love the accolades.   Rhonda: (30:14) Very, very, afraid to change. And that's why you're kind of defensive. Once I actually wrote a little bit and joined one of this internet group which are talking about Chinese Medicine, so I just said a few things. Oh, there were so many people up against it. So angry.   Rhonda: (30:30) And they asked... demand me explain. "No," I thought, "I don't really have time to explain to you all this in here," and then they kick me out of the group, and they said, "If you don't explain, you're better off, this is not a place to show yourself." Oh, all right. So I just dropped it, it didn't really matter. So many people, very defensive. Very defensive.   Mason: (30:51) What I see there is especially, there's something... they are wanting to learn and then stagnate, which is the main difference between a fake TCM and a real yi is I see that.. You said you were a good physician, and that is rare, and also what they want to do is they don't care whether they have someone that's good or not, they want to just be able to, as you said, commodify and pump out these physicians.   Mason: (31:23) Now the difference is, someone who isn't willing to really walk the path, acknowledge the fact that we are in communion with the sun, heaven, moon, the earth, the way it's moving, that's its own path, it takes its own discipline, and requires a certain amount of integrity, because there's... Yunyin is never ending flux. Verse, in the fake style, they want to say, "That's the symptom, and I'm going to fix that symptom." They still use the fancy words, damp, heat, it's still, to a Westerner, you're like, "Ooh, wow, this is so exotic, a damp heat."   Rhonda: (31:56) Yes.   Mason: (31:57) But it's still bullshit. [crosstalk 00:31:59].   Rhonda: (32:00) Yeah, exactly. And that's... Damp heat, it's a... You know, people think that's a diagnosis, it's not. What is damp heat? That's only a symptom. It's like if people say, "I'm actually Blood deficiency." What is Blood deficient? That's a symptom. That's not diagnosis. So you've got to really understand how that happened. All that is wuxing. You know, who created? Who made this?   Rhonda: (32:25) So you got to work on that, then you can treat it. If I say, "I got Blood deficient, no," I've got to say, "Oh, nourish the Blood, and I've got to find it. It's not, because your body actually able to kind of create everything. It's not really nutrition, that's why I'm kind of against this nutrition point, as well. I mean, when you're working in the natural food, you don't say it's because of nutrition.   Rhonda: (32:49) It's because the powerful Yang, or the powerful Yin, and that's how they actually make your body bouncy and make you well, rather than say, "Oh, this got some vitamins, or this got some kind of minerals and all rubbish." Yeah.   Mason: (33:04) It's harder to get ego attached on to it, because it's just a part of the nature of the universe, and the key term in the book that I saw the difference between, say, someone who's going to go to fake Chinese Medicine to someone that has the capacity to walk the authentic path is their understanding of Qihua and that was the biggest distinction.   Mason: (33:29) I realise when you were talking about Qihua and we'll go into what it is to explain to everyone, but a physician who just wants to treat the Blood deficiency and think that that's an actual diagnosis. They are going to treat the Blood, treat the Qi and say, "We've gone about that very holistically in accordance with the tradition."   Mason: (33:52) But they don't understand the transformative cycle of Yin and Yang and it's never ending transformation.   Rhonda: (33:59) That's right. Yes.   Mason: (34:00) Chi qua. Can you explain that? Because it made the difference for me.   Rhonda: (34:04) Yes, well, Qi which means like a force, like... We say things you can't really kind of grab it, that's called a chi, you know? But it's got a energy, but then it's kind of a airy kind of energy. That's called a Qi. Hua It's the transform, transformation. You know? We say, "How does the sun, actually the heat, transform to Water rise?"   Rhonda: (34:30) And that's actually become a Water Qi, isn't it? So then when the rise heat, we call it a Fire, kind of... what do you call it? Qi. And then when they actually turn you to... what do you call that? Growing trees, that's what we call that tree, like a Wood Qi. So that's actually called a Qihua, it's the Five Elements, kind of... oh. People say element, I don't quite comfortable with this word.   Rhonda: (34:56) But anyway, it's the transformation of one thing to the other and the force. So that's why we call it Qihua. So that's why somebody... In that book, I think I gave you an example, somebody at the university, a Ph.D. student, and then they talk about nutrition. I said, "I'll ask him," I said, "What about Qihua?" And then he said, "What are you talking about? What is that?" You know? He didn't understand at all. But Qihua is very important, it's how the changes. And you heard of [inaudible 00:35:25].   Mason: (35:25) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (35:27) [inaudible]. Yeah, that's what I'm writing at the moment in the next book with theory part is also the sun position, and the Earth movement, and how to... That the sun movement, the position... Which you cause, you know, like the sunrise and sundown. We call that the [inaudible], that movement. And the Qi which is the Earth changing, and that create a different atmosphere.   Rhonda: (35:53) And that is what I call the [inaudible]. You know? That now turned into, like, a luck. You know, how your luck is. Because your luck is can't escape from the sun and the moon.   Mason: (36:05) You make your own luck.   Rhonda: (36:09) Yes, yes. Because luck is about a sun position and your time. So that's what it is. It's a time and a position.   Mason: (36:15) And I think the fallacy of the West is looking at that fundamental principle of life, that we are connected, and that our atmospheric positioning is going to effect us and our capacity to... you know, even considering if you're talking about something that in the West has a gravity, like... you know, the word cancer.   Mason: (36:37) And then to talk about it in context of Water Qi, Wood Qi. But because Westerners require drama, I think it's almost intimidating to go into what's seen as something that's just... You know, it's folk medicine, it's not real, that's why they've gone to Commodify Chinese medicine for the West, we need to actually take out all that terminology that has anything esoteric whatsoever and therefore, you know, therefore we're going to be able to sell this to Westerners.   Mason: (37:18) And if you look at where Western Medicine is, the detrimental scalpel, taking the scalpel to medicine and nature and separating them is... It's evident what's happened, and I just want to reiterate that this medicine is very, very effective if you go back to its roots.   Rhonda: (37:42) Very, very effective. In fact, I think I said in the other podcast, I mean, this is kind of a bit of personal, but I've actually been poisoned by formaldehyde and benzine. And I was like a Liver and the Kidney failure. I mean, I didn't go to Western Medicine so I couldn't really get any kind of [inaudible 00:38:00] diagnose, but I didn't really want it because, you know, you're that sick and you mentally kind of weak as well so I didn't want them to curse me, to say, "You're going to die in a few months," or whatever.   Rhonda: (38:11) So I actually totally relied on herbs, and acupuncture, and treating myself. And I'm actually on the mending, yeah.   Mason: (38:20) Wow.   Rhonda: (38:21) So, I mean, I'm still not 100%, like what I used to be, but I'm definitely still alive.   Mason: (38:25) Wow.   Rhonda: (38:26) [crosstalk 00:38:26] to this stage, I lost all my weight, like 42 kilos, and like skeleton. And couldn't eat, and I turned to just black, like a green and blackish. And, oh, I was completely... getting a fever every few days. You just... you're thinking, I mean... I definitely prepared to die, but I thought, "Even when I die, I'm not going to waste the medicine." There's no way I'll let them torture me. But I actually just rely on herbs and acupuncture and treat myself and I'm almost normal now. [crosstalk 00:39:00]   Mason: (38:59) Wow. You were talking about it being sad about practitioners being taught this new style of medicine. What I find sad, as well, is a lot of people listening, and like myself, I have... I'm going my path right now and I'm going to not go down the practitioner path for the moment, but I talk about this... I talk about the Chinese herbs as a fan.   Mason: (39:26) I talk about acupuncture as a patient and as a fan to this medicine and an advocate, but you can't... The problem here, in Australia especially, which I'd like you to talk to the people listening who go and have acupuncture, how to navigate the relationship within acupuncturist and find someone in this current day where you're not really allowed, technically, in Australia, to practise classical Yi. Right?   Rhonda: (39:53) That's right. It's very, very, kind of dangerous to practise. That's why I actually kind of erased myself. Because when you're being a practitioner, you agree that's when we kind of... You know, in 2012, when we become, like, a so-called, a government recognised practise and that's why I erased because by then, we have to sign a paper to say we agree their terms, and the one of the term which I can't agree is you got to actually become a... What do you call that? Assistant. Like, a complimentary to biomedicine. Which means if somebody come to me, I actually got to send them to Western doctors if I think they're serious. I mean, what I do?   Rhonda: (40:39) If I send everybody go to them, what am I doing? But then, when you treat everybody seriously, if anything happen, even when you're treating life and death, isn't it? If somebody happening something really serious or whatever, even to die, and you send yourself to jail, and they bankrupt everything they can fine you everything. So how can you really practise? You couldn't really do it. So most people, I think the best they do is just kind of... You got to lay back and do a little bit. I can help you as much as I can, that's all it is.   Mason: (41:10) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (41:10) You can be serious now, it's kind of political condition. But this medicine, it definitely very powerful. And also a lot of herbs you're not allowed to have. And because this called biomedical kind of terminology, and they say this is poisonous, while the herbs, actually, I was importing and they said, "You can't," they said, "It's poisonous." I said, "Who actually kind of analysed? I want to see the paper says this poison." And they said, "Because this relate to another herb, the name's similar."   Mason: (41:40) Whoa.   Rhonda: (41:40) I mean, that is ridiculous.   Mason: (41:40) Yeah.   Rhonda: (41:40) So they're not... They understand nothing, basically. So you can't argue with them, so you can't really... it's very difficult to practise. I know... Well, I'm teaching, but I also feel sorry for people who want to practise the real thing. But at least you help yourself. They can't stop you help yourself, you know? Like, if I didn't have this knowledge, I'll be dead, long time. You know? Like, I'm still alive, and I'm still working. So it's...   Mason: (42:12) And kicking.   Rhonda: (42:12) It's something really good. You know, very important for yourself, to do this. So and I hope, actually, eventually if there's enough, that's one of my aim to do this course training, eventually we're going to set up association called the Yi Association. And we're going to set up our own kind of way, and like a Chinese Medicine before. They didn't recognise, but they can't stop you because they've not recognised it, we don't want them to recognise it. But they can't stop us.   Rhonda: (42:39) So we're in this kind of form, and enough people we're truly an association and we're going to push that all over the world. We're going to do this real Yi. You have to, because it's such a beautiful knowledge. You know, when you actually learn it, it's powerful and it's beautiful when you learn it. At the moment I'm doing a little bit on my Facebook group, the Yinyang Wuxing Yi Facebook group. Actually, I start teaching language because in my course, if you actually... You got to learn the basic terms, and then you'll be able to kind of follow me.   Rhonda: (43:15) So now I'm training a little bit of this work. I mean, even just the words are beautiful, really, to learn. I'm not teaching modern Chinese word, I'm teaching, like, the sun, how they actually first come, it's like the run, and then with the stroke, and the straight line. The straight line, which means... you know, if you know the bagua the straight line is a Yang , and the broken is like a Yin. And the straight line, what it means it's a sign is a powerful, it's firm. So that's where the words come from. And eventually they make a square, and with the line. And square means the sun actually is east in the west and north and south, going down, going up. And so that cause what they call the position of the Earth. [crosstalk 00:44:03]   Mason: (44:03) Square... I'm sure there's going to be people that want to know whether they can join your Facebook group.   Rhonda: (44:11) Yeah, yeah.   Mason: (44:11) Okay.   Rhonda: (44:11) Facebook group, open to... I mean, you have to ask to join in, but it's a group anybody can learn. So I made it as a group because I thought it concentrated all the things in there, so... yeah.   Mason: (44:23) Oh, yeah, of course.   Mason: (44:26) I mean, I'm really excited to hear that you have a page. And Tahnee my partner, who's a bit jealous that I'm talking to you, [crosstalk 00:44:32] next time, maybe we'll do a podcast with both of us so Tahnee can speak with you as well. She did have six months studying acupuncture at a university.   Rhonda: (44:43) Yeah.   Mason: (44:43) And [crosstalk 00:44:44].   Rhonda: (44:44) Well, acupuncture is good, because acupuncture, you have a little risk. So when you become acupuncturist, you're able to do all the things. And then you don't really have to talk about it. You know, like people come in if they like it, you don't really have to talk about philosophy or disease, whatever, they talk about what their problem, you go your own way, and then you chose point, then you do your way. And then it's less risk than herbs. But then, I mean, herbs and acupuncture are equally important. If you actually learn acu and you don't know herbs, I say it's like you got left arm, you don't have the right arm. You know? Like, you're half, really.   Rhonda: (45:23) So you got to have all of them and you'll be able to do everything. And also, after this new [inaudible 00:45:29] I don't know, if I live that long, I'll want to make the last [inaudible 00:45:34] I want to make is called a [true yo 00:45:36]. I don't know if you heard this [true yo 00:45:38]? Which is like a shaman, which talk about how you actually work on spirit and then to get people... Because we say your body is a spirit in body, that's how your life is. And then there's way, actually, to work on your spirit, to make your body actually live that. This is, in China, like a cure.. 1600 was, like, a government-organised practise and there's a lot of books.   Rhonda: (46:02) And then cure... what do you call it? Qing Dynasty in China, 1600. They didn't quite believe these things, so they didn't really kind of push them down, but the government didn't have this kind of practise anymore. Not in the imperialist kind of government, didn't have this department anymore. So it's become kind of a private and... What do you call it... We call it, like, ordinary people would still kind of practise, but of course, after war and this period and during the communism, of course, that's completely [crosstalk 00:46:34].   Mason: (46:34) Gone. [crosstalk 00:46:34]   Rhonda: (46:35) Recently, actually, there's a lot of book up here, which are hidden in Taiwan, the national library. And they actually started publish online and now I actually got all the copies of them. So I think one day I'm going to work on that. That'd be beautiful, really. I love that.   Mason: (46:52) That would be... I was going to say, like, I think Tahnee is going to absolutely love your course. You know, [crosstalk 00:46:58] the course that you're going to come up with, and then when you come up with that course, she would as well, but I especially want to be in on that one. You can get me in there for the prototype, I [crosstalk 00:47:08].   Rhonda: (47:08) Well, I mean, that's a long for idea, but at the moment, I really want to get these things done. You know, like the theory of [inaudible 00:47:14] and the medicine. Body, about body, how you actually reckon the body as Yin and Yang rather than anatomy.   Mason: (47:19) Absolutely.   Rhonda: (47:20) And all this. And then you got to recognise the herbs, how that actually in Yin Yang rather than chemistry. And then you've got to understand Meridians as, what you call.. Time, rather than, what point make what disease. And especially annoyed with the name in the West and the teaching acupuncture... Bladder number 45, or something, that's just ridiculous.   Mason: (47:41) Boring.   Rhonda: (47:42) You have to know the words, that's why I'm teaching the words, as well. Because all these words actually have meaning. There's meaning about these points, so you've got to learn that and you understand how that work together so that's [crosstalk 00:47:56].   Mason: (47:55) Yeah, well, then, there's life in the true word, there's life, there.   Rhonda: (48:00) Yes, yes, yes, yeah.   Mason: (48:03) For [crosstalk 00:48:03] is... Again, they've taken a scalpel, they've cut it out, and they've plunked it there, and it's not living. It's inanimate.   Rhonda: (48:08) That's right. That's exactly. It's not living. Yeah, everything got a living, you know? That's all we believe. You know? Life. You got to use life to survive, to make a life rather than using fake things, you know? Like chemical... chemical, you can't say they're not working, but then they carry it on with side effect and all the consequences. It gets really ridiculous, but once you're actually on the chemical things, you can't change them. Because it's like... say, if somebody actually had lots of chemotherapy and they come to see me, and that's most value I have, because when you have all this chemicals in there and they manipulate bodies, sometimes you can't even identify this is your own system problem, or is it the drug problem?   Rhonda: (48:48) So you go to actually try to get that... you know, kind of push it away and settle them down before you can really treat the real cases. So it's really difficult, yeah. I know, it's not... We're not in the good time, not in the right timing for this medicine, but maybe it's also good where they're challenging, so I think we probably make a change. Yeah. I mean, slowly, I'm starting. And then eventually more people will have this power, more people will join together, and they will fight.   Mason: (49:18) I think so. I really... I've seen somewhat of a resurgence, I think there's a renaissance, I think that people have realised how bored they are within a system that is basically like a grey piece of cardboard.   Rhonda: (49:32) Very much, very much.   Mason: (49:33) People want to live.   Rhonda: (49:33) Yeah, exactly.   Mason: (49:35) And as a practitioner, they want to live, therefore, help people live themselves.   Rhonda: (49:38) Yeah. I mean, you can't live like that, just... You know, material.   Mason: (49:43) No.   Rhonda: (49:44) It's a... what do you call that? Spirit is more important than... You know, we can live short, but if we live a good spirit and you feel like "I lived," but if you really live long and you're just like... It's terrible, you're just like a vegetable, it's not... No use, no good. Yeah. Definitely.   Mason: (50:01) Well, I'm going to continue to do the... What I'm going to do, I've got a few books that I like keeping around as several copies for when I meet someone, when I meet an acupuncturist, new acupuncturist friend, that I give out the Chinese Medicine Masquerading As Yi is one of those books. So everyone listening, as a SuperFeaster, it is mandatory reading to get both of Rhonda Chang's books. Yinyang Wuxing, Spirit Body and Healing.   Mason: (50:31) It's not actually mandatory. I'm just kind of like, putting it in that terminology. Highly recommended, and Chinese Medicine Masquerading as Yi and once you've read it, it's one of those ones that I think especially, like, Yinyang Wuxing, I'm at that point where I definitely need to read it again. I've read through once, and then jumped to different parts, and now I'm going to need to read again. Same with... Because this isn't something black-and-white to memorise, this is something to feel and experience. So I just wanted to... Before we head off, and I'm definitely going to ask you to come back on the podcast, and I think I'll definitely get Tahnee in there with um..   Rhonda: (51:07) Thank you.   Mason: (51:09) But considering a lot of the people listening here, not practitioners, but they are people who are developing their own personal health culture, wanting to understand their body in a crazy Western health scene that is just confusing at times. Can you talk just from a sense of one's own lifestyle and relationship to their own body without the context of them necessarily healing others, just themselves? What advice have you got in the principles of Yinyang Wuxing? How can they get more into the flow? How can they ensure that their in a preventative space and how to get... You know, bring their spirit, so they can have long-term health?   Rhonda: (51:51) Okay. Well, the very, very first thing is avoid eating chemical, if you can. You know, like a sugar. It's a chemical, but if you're eating this... I think there's another one which called Sri Lanka kind of a sugar and now I think Australia making them, too. It's... Dried the sugar cane juice, and you can use that. That's not really a problem.   Mason: (52:14) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (52:15) And because of chemical, when they get in the system, and they... For a start, they're very fine, and they could attach in your system, and then they become like a blockage. And secondly, a chemical, it doesn't go the same way as the Yinyang Wuxing, you know, in your body transformation. So sugar is, and there's salt. Salt... Which a lot of people say, "I'm eating, like, a table salt." That's a pure chemical, very dangerous. Because the sea salt, if you have, it's 80-something, you know, different minerals. And the ratio is the same as your Blood. So you can't go wrong, and you don't need to eat this table salt and that add a bit of zinc and a little bit of... What do you call that? [crosstalk 00:52:57]   Mason: (52:57) Iodine.   Rhonda: (52:58) Iodine, all the different minerals. You have sea salt, and you actually kind of balance. But the sea salt, a lot of them on the shelf say, "sea salt," it's not real, it's not life. Because real sea salt, you crush them, you make them a fine, and after a few hours, they clap them together again, because they're life. And then if there's rain, you don't put water in there, they absorb the moist and they become kind of moist. And when they dry, they actually evaporate, like a sea. So that's a real life sea salt. And the salt and the sugar, this is two very important... And you've got to avoid eating chemicals.   Rhonda: (53:34) Because chemical, if they get out of your system, all right. But if they don't get out, they block your system, that's what we call cancer. Cancer is a blockage. It's something not flow. You know, if you've ever seen a cancer cell, and I actually... When we were in China practise, I actually... We had to do operation and all these things in the internship and the one guy actually had a leg, got a big cancer on his legs. It was smelly. You walked into that room, and you smell is that stink. Really, really bad. It just wasn't me. So what happened is the cancer, just cause blockage... They're blocked. They can't really move.   Rhonda: (54:17) So chemical really block your system, because they don't change. They're not really kind of... Like other thing. You eat meat, and you can't find any meat, animal meat in your body if you eat... What do you call it? Natural food, apple, you can't find apple in your poop, in your pee. But if you eat sugar, you find it is in there. So if they get out, you're lucky. If they don't get out, they're in your system, they block it, and then you cause the blockage and the Water will stale, and then they'll be rotten, and then mushrooms grow. That's what the cancer is. So if you want to actually be healthy, that's the first advice, no chemical. Yeah.   Mason: (54:56) Beautiful.   Rhonda: (54:56) And also warm things is better, because we're like a refrigerated drink, because we say your life is heat. You know? If somebody lying there, you don't know if they're alive and dead, and you touch them. If they're still warm, you think they still got life in there. If they're cold, you know they're dead. So what happened is your heat reserve, that's where your energy, that's what your force are. So if you drink cold drink, it doesn't go to your Blood straight away, that's why you bubble. You know, your pores all close off, you get goose bubbles.   Rhonda: (55:27) Because... goosebumps. And what happened is, because your stomach also hold out and then your body actually... Your energy, your Kidney reserve the heat, warm them up, and then they [inaudible 00:55:39], then they go into your system. So by then, what happening you lost your reserve. So it's better not to drink too cold drinks. Yeah.   Mason: (55:48) Keep yourself warm.   Rhonda: (55:50) Yeah.   Mason: (55:51) Put your coat on in winter.   Rhonda: (55:51) Yeah, and... I mean, if you're keeping clothes but if you're active, exercise, you don't put a lot of clothes on, it's all right. But internally, you don't want to cool your body down. Yeah.   Rhonda: (56:00) Don't drink too cold drink all the time. Yeah. That's basic.   Mason: (56:04) Beautiful. Well, but the basics are what, over decades, 20, 30, 40, 50, years, that's where the medicine is.   Rhonda: (56:11) Yes. Yes.   Mason: (56:12) [crosstalk 00:56:12].   Rhonda: (56:12) Yeah. [crosstalk 00:56:13]   Mason: (56:13) I love it so much. I've loved this conversation.   Rhonda: (56:16) Thank you very much.   Mason: (56:16) I'm sure you've got a busy day ahead of you. As I said, you're not going to go long without jumping back on the podcast, because I love it too much. I love your message too much.   Mason: (56:25) And I'm excited to join the Facebook group, I'll get the link off you and I'll put it in the show notes for everyone. But what's it called, just in case people want to look it up?   Rhonda: (56:35) Yinyang Wuxing Yi, which is yin, Y-I-N-Y-A-N-G.   Mason: (56:36) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Rhonda: (56:37) And W-U-X-I-N-G and the Y-I. Yinyang Wuxing Yi. Yinyang Wuxing, which is the theory, and yi, which is the healing, and [inaudible 00:56:37] approach. Yinyang Wuxing Yi.   Mason: (56:37) The healing. That's Y-I, everybody.   Rhonda: (56:37) Y-I, yeah.   Mason: (56:37) [crosstalk 00:56:37] yi.   Rhonda: (56:37) Y-I. Yi, yi.   Mason: (56:56) Beautiful, everyone get the books. Where... Best place to get your books? Is that your website?   Rhonda: (57:01) Yeah, my website is rhondachang.com, and get book from there. But at the moment, because I don't have a printed book, I rely on Amazon to print. But Amazon, at the moment, they don't send to Australia. So have to wait a little bit, but you can buy it from Amazon.com.au, but they cost a little bit more than I would for sale.   Rhonda: (57:23) Doesn't matter.   Mason: (57:24) No one minds. No.   Rhonda: (57:25) Yes. It's worth it, they're funny. Because it's... If you're learning about Chinese medicine or if you really feel disappointed about Chinese medicine, and you should read this. And you understand the why, and you got a future, because you know where to go.   Mason: (57:42) And guys, that's it. If you felt disappointment in Chinese medicine, in acupuncture, you know, that Chinese Medicine Masquerading As Yi, that is a book that will... It'll validate.   Rhonda: (57:53) Yeah, open your eyes. Really.   Mason: (57:57) [crosstalk 00:57:57] open your eyes.   Rhonda: (57:57) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Mason: (57:57) I love it.   Rhonda: (57:57) Thank you very much.   Mason: (58:00) I mean, I've got so many things I could go on about, but let's just call it here and I'll see you next time.   Rhonda: (58:03) Okay. No worries.   Mason: (58:03) Have a great, great day.   Rhonda: (58:05) Thank you very much. Yeah. Bye.

In today's episode, we meet Lindsay Bierwert, a licensed Acupuncturist at Lotus Acupuncture. She has been practicing for 3 years in Charlotte after receiving a dual Master's degree in Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine. She found Acupuncture and Chinese herbs at the end of her college career when a professor recommended it to her while finding support for herself with the treatments. Lindsay enjoys the holistic view of her clients. She spends time with each person listening to the challenges they are coming in with as well as the stories they tell regarding their history. She believes a person's history as well as diet, exercise, digestion, sleep all affect each other and the chief complaint. Lindsay was inspired during her trip to China to see how integrated Acupuncture is in the medical model there. "There are things that we can do to help your body relearn and adjust and regulate its hormones properly." We learn that herbal medicine is made up of twigs, roots, leaves, and flowers in a specialized concoction as a complement to the work done with Acupuncture. The herbs can help expedite the process and provide relief in between treatments. She discusses the actual needles that are used and reports that ~30 Acupuncture needles can fit into the opening of a hypodermic needle. About 20 needles are placed in the body in specific locations depending on the chief complaint and the session can last anywhere from 30-40 minutes. Lindsay describes the treatment process starting a 1x week for approximately 12 weeks before tapering, but notes that each person has a different response. She describes that with Acupuncture, "We are accessing your body's natural ability to heal itself. Your body was designed to heal itself and to be healthy. It doesn't like being autoimmune or having an immune issue." She is passionate about working with young women who would like support around menstrual cycle issues, anxiety, and depression. We learn that Acupuncture can support many areas including pain, allergies, digestion, emotional struggles to name a few. Lindsay offers a free consultation to anyone who is interested in learning how Acupuncture and Chinese medicine can help them. Lindsay suggests the book "The Web that has no Weaver" by Ted Kaptchuk and the podcast "Qiological" hosted by Michael Max both for more information on Acupuncture and Chinese medicine. In the Charlotte community, she has been inspired by Cori Stuart, a Reiki practitioner, and Laura Puckett, an Acupuncturist and owner of Lotus Acupuncture. In her opinion, both of this women help their clients access parts of themselves in unique and special ways. Lindsay loves the Charlotte community because of the diversity and acceptance of people.

Michael Max is an NCCAOM certified acupuncturist and herbalist.  Practicing out of St. Louis, Missouri, Michael is well known in the Chinese medicine community for his podcast Qiological, where he has interviewed many of the contributors to our profession.  Join me as I trace Michael's journey of his first experience with acupuncture, studying in China and all he has gleaned from his 21 years in practice. For more information on Michael, please visit: https://yongkangclinic.com/ To listen to his podcast Qiological, please visit: https://qiological.com/ The Strength of TCM Workbook, digital downloads, study charts and practice support are all available at kentonsefcik.com Track is Samurai Code by Levox: levox.bandcamp.com

In this episode of Qiological we are taking a look at dry needling not from the legal or scope of practice point of view, but rather from the viewpoint of how acupuncturists can learn something from this form of acupuncture that has quickly grown in popularity among our conventional medicine colleagues. We all know that acupuncture can be powerful medicine. Little wonder that other professionals would like to be able to access its healing power. And in some ways, conventional practitioners have a leg up, as they already speak the language of the dominate culture, and have a certain status due to being associated with “scientific” medicine. In this panel discussion with three experienced and dedicated acupuncturists we explore what East Asian medicine practitioners can learn from the dry needling community.Listen in to this conversation that is less about legalities and more about opening up an uncomfortable avenue for learning.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  

In this solo episode I review the past six months of Qiological and give you a preview on the next six months. Also I'll talking in some depth about the Practice of Business, why SEO is a process, not a product and some thoughts on what makes for an effective website. Finally, I have some news to share with you about being more involved with Qiological. I used to think that business was a necessary evil, but have come around to realizing its a powerful opportunity. And I have my family to thank for that. And speaking of business, your web site is an important part of that. I've some opinions about it too, as mine has become over time an appointment generating machine. If you would like your phone to ring with people saying "I want an appointment" instead of "I have some questions about acupuncture" after they've been on your web site, then you are going to want to listen to this show and take notes.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

This episode started out as a short solo show to give you a sense of what to expect from Qiological in the coming year.  Then a friend who I wanted to interview for the show said, "Actually, I'd like to interview you. I've got some questions about the background of your podcast show, and what motivates and fuels you through the various projects I've seen you undertake over the years."  So today's show is not only gives you a glimpse of what's ahead, but also a peek behind the microphone.  Listen in and find out how I stumbled onto the idea for Qiological Podcast, how curiosity and failure make for a potent prescription for learning and creativity, and why running into resistance is not a sign you're on the wrong path, but rather the right one.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

In this episode we reflect on the burden and privilege of a clinical practice. How we grow into it by using a blend of our objectivity and subjectivity. And how mindfulness and a curiosity about our own internal landscape all help to inform our clinical work and development as a practitioner. We look at how learning the medicine not only helps the patients we see, but provides a deep benefit for our lives as well. And how to stay  present in the moments of failure in such a way that we can gain a deeper clarity about our work. Listen in for a discussion of how to gain a balanced sensitivity that helps us to navigate the challenges of learning from clinical experience, and support us in moving beyond the comfort of reliable skills when they don't prove so reliable.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

We give a great amount of respect to the Classics in Chinese medicine, but understanding these foundational texts of our medicine can be challenge, even if you do understand the old form of Chinese. Just as many of struggle to get through the brilliance of Shakespeare, the classics of Chinese medicine require a particular kind of attention. And it doesn't hurt if you actually can understand the "gu wen" classical Chinese language. It's even more helpful if you engaged the other classic literature of China from an early age. Our guest in this episode did just that, and in this conversation we see how terse lines from the classics can speak eloquently to confusing cases in the modern clinic. Listen in and get a glimpse at how the classics can be applied to difficult clinical cases. You'll be wanting to spend more time with the Su Wen (Simple Questions) after this!                                    Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

Eastland Press has been bringing books on Oriental medicine from Chinese into English since the early days of Americans studying the traditional medicine of Asia. Actually, from even before there was a market for this kind of material. In this episode we go into the early history of Eastland Press. How what seemed like a good idea at the time turned into a multi-year endeavor and how Dan and John's dedication to "Westerner's owning our part of this long medical tradition" has kept them at the forefront of providing quality books for the practitioner of East Asian medicine. Listen in for an entertaining and informative piece of Chinese medicine history in the West, and for a glimpse of some future offerings from Eastland Press that you'll want for your library.     Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.    Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological's Facebook page.

Oriental medicine draws distinctions between various aspects of mind, body and spirit, but unlike Western culture, it never severed the connections between these aspects of being. We know both from our experience in clinic and writings of Chinese medicine through the ages that emotional and mental processes can effect physiology and the body can deeply influence the mind. We see an entangled  system of mutual influence where Western medicine sees a hierarchy and disconnection between mind and body. In this episode we explore working with the aspect of emotions through the influence of the eight extraordinary vessels. Listen in for an introduction to how you can tap the influence of the eight extras to help your patients navigate psycho-emotive issues.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.    Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological's Facebook page.

This episode is a short introduction to a new podcast site that I've recently launched that is specifically geared towards the needs and interests of Chinese medicine practitioners. When I first began Everyday Acupuncture Podcast I envisioned this to be a show that would introduce everyday people to the concepts, methods and possibilities that Chinese medicine offers for naturally healing a wide variety of health concerns. I purposefully avoided technical language and professional jargon. It's been gratifying to see that people from all over the world tune into the show. And it has been a big surprise to hear from so many practitioners of Chinese medicine and how much they gotten from show. So, for you practitioners of the art I've something new that I think you will enjoy. Qiological.com is a newly launched podcast show that is for you. Like Everyday Acupuncture I seek to bring you articulate seasoned practitioners who share their methods, perspectives and practices. This show goes deep into acupuncture, herbal medicine, cultivation and the practice of practice. If you have enjoyed Everyday Acupuncture, you are going to love qiological.com.

It’s really difficult to attract something that you actually have an aversion toward. Many practitioners have conflicted feelings about money, conflate marketing with dishonesty, and worry that material success is somehow suspect. Is it any wonder that for many acupuncturists having a thriving practice is something we both desire and at the same time avoid? In this episode we look at how a stable thriving practice comes not from doing the “business things” we dislike, but rather from the cultivation of value, integrity and responsibility. The “practice of business” is not separate from the “practice of medicine.” In fact, our business and the services we provide are as seamlessly integrated as yin and yang. Cultivating our business is no different from the cultivation of our medical skills, or any yang sheng practice we might have in life. And just as we see all kinds of problems in the conventional medical work when body and mind are split apart and considered separate, so too we cause all kinds of problems for ourselves when we image the practice of medicine and the practice of business to be separate entities. They are part of an integrated whole. Listen in to rediscover the joy and opportunities that can arise when we engage the practice of business!   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.    Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.  

It is common knowledge that acupuncture is quite effective in the treatment of pain. However, for many of us acupuncturists we feel a bit uneasy about treating back pain in pregnant women, as we don’t want to move too much qi and blood in a pregnant woman.   In this episode our guest Debra Betts shares her long and deep experience in working with women in pregnancy, and in particular how to effectively and safely treat back pain that is due to the physiologic and hormonal changes that occur in the later stages of pregnancy.  As she reminds us, “Conventional medicine has nothing to help these women, while acupuncture can make a significant difference in these women’s lives, their ability to sleep comfortably and get about the business of daily life without pain.”  Listen in as we discuss common acupuncture points you’re sure to know about, that can bring profound relief to women that suffer this common discomfort during pregnancy.    Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

Our guest in this episode is a long time practitioner and teacher of Chinese medicine. Our discussion ranges through a number of different topics from approaching the classics in Chinese medicine, to how our practices season us and lead us in certain directions over the years, to some considerations that new practitioners might find helpful. We also discuss how to keep our growing edge vital and alive and dip into the difference between medicine and healing. Listen in as we explore the perspective of a long time practitioner of Chinese medicine who's been chewing on this stuff for a few decades.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

Studying medicine can be both a joyous exploration and a dry mind-numbing slog through endless technical material. In this episode we discuss the Eastland Press book "A Walk Along the River." This book is not just a glimpse into the mind of a seasoned and well-read practitioner, but also brings in the aspect of dialogue, as his clinical cases and considerations are further illuminated by the questions posed by three doctors. If you've ever read a book on medicine that gave you the "what" of a treatment, but left you hanging because it failed to include the "why," this book will be a useful addition to your library. In this discuss we discuss the process of translating, dig into Dr Yu's thinking, and touch in on how to move forward when you don't know what to do.    Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

Every acupuncturist is intimately familiar with the points and functions of the 12 commonly used acupuncture channels, as well as the functions and use of the 8 extraordinary meridians. In our studies we might have heard about the divergent channels, but for the most part we don't use these in everyday practice. For many of us, they are a bit of mystery and remain so as we generally can go about our business of helping patients with the 12 regular channels and 8 extras. In this episode we explore the use, function and treatment of the divergent channels. If you have patients autoimmune disease, or chronic issues seem to cycle but go nowhere, this conversation with Josephine Spilka will give you insights on how help your patients break these cycles of dysfunction.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

Recurrent ear infections are a common complaint with children, and it's clear that the conventional multiple courses of antibiotics are rarely effective in the long run. In this episode we take a look at specific patterns of disharmony that lead to this common problem, some treatment strategies, as well as  lifestyle considerations that are helpful in reducing or eliminating this troublesome problem.   Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview.  Join the discussion! Leave a comment on Qiological’s Facebook page.

In this brief introduction to Qiological, show host Michael Max gives an overview of what you expect from this podcast show.   You can visit the website for more information and to get direct access to various links on the show notes page of the episode you are interested in.    Thanks for listening. And if you have suggestions for a show, or want to hear more about a particular topic. Pop on over to the website and send an email!