Podcast appearances and mentions of christian vocation

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost. Key Takeaways Vocation is threefold: A proper understanding of Christian vocation includes responsibilities to our work, our families, and our church—not just our careers. Lord's Day conflicts: Professions that regularly prevent church attendance and Lord's Day observance may be inappropriate for Christians, regardless of their potential for influence or impact. Family obligations: Scripture teaches that Christians who neglect family responsibilities are "worse than unbelievers" (1 Tim. 5:8), suggesting that careers demanding excessive time away from family may be problematic. Christian influence vs. gospel proclamation: We must distinguish between transforming culture through worldly influence versus the actual proclamation of the gospel, which can happen at any level of employment. Sacrifice is expected: Following Christ often requires sacrificing career advancement, prestige, or financial gain to fulfill our primary callings. Priority check: When considering job opportunities, Christians should evaluate church options in a new location with the same care they give to schools, housing, and other community factors. God calls us to faithfulness: Our primary calling is to faithfulness in our responsibilities, not necessarily to positions of maximum influence or cultural power. Balancing the Threefold Calling The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically. The Question of Christian Influence A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim. Quotes "Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal "I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb "I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal Practical Applications The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities: Will this job regularly prevent Lord's Day worship? Does it require sacrificing time with family beyond what's reasonable? Could you negotiate Sabbath observance with potential employers? When relocating, evaluate church options with the same care given to schools and housing Consider whether a lower-paying job that allows faithfulness in all areas might be better than a higher-paying one that doesn't Full Transcript [00:00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey [00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It [00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it. [00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode. [00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works. [00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it. [00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of? [00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it. [00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming. [00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before. [00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this. [00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour. [00:02:41] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it. [00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something? [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay. [00:03:16] Exploring AI in Learning [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform. [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it. [00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format. [00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content. [00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in. [00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way. [00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument. [00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis. [00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes. [00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter. [00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal. [00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about. [00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise. [00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know. [00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right? [00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out. [00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful. [00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures. [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God. [00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority. [00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content. [00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize. [00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it. [00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked. [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it. [00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:11:16] Nasal Spray Affirmation [00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything. [00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody. [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life. [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that. [00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So [00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose. [00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out. [00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year. [00:14:32] Hummingbird Moth Encounter [00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth. [00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face. [00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine. [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the [00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth. [00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking. [00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large. [00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they. [00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do. [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right. [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But [00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name. [00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse. [00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens. [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring. [00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet. [00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's, [00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it. [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything. [00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages. [00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What, [00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review. [00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood. [00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is. [00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. [00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those. [00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well. [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one. [00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here. [00:20:27] Christian Vocation and Work [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians. [00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and. [00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things. [00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter? [00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer. [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those. [00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be. [00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right? [00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis. [00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week. [00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that. [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession. [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual. [00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job. [00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test. [00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively. [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels. [00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose. [00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time. [00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation. [00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right. [00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should. [00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold? [00:28:13] Exploring the Theology of Work and the Lord's Day [00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities. [00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um. [00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely. [00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day. [00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think. [00:29:24] Works of Necessity and Charity on the Lord's Day [00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls. [00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you. [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right? [00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity. [00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services. [00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well. [00:31:48] Balancing Professional Responsibilities and Christian Obligations [00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c. [00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying. [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy. [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff. [00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms. [00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day. [00:33:20] Personal Experiences and Real-World Applications [00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO. [00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday. [00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day? [00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that. [00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill? [00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask. [00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church. [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job. [00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that. [00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better? [00:36:01] The Role of Christians in Leadership Positions [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO? [00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have. [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness. [00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how. [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society. [00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow. [00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling. [00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory. [00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this. [00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society. [00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians. [00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that. [00:39:43] Sacrifices and Priorities in Christian Vocation [00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same. [00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say. [00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel. [00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good. [00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that. [00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right? [00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not. [00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain. [00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level. [00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their. [00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to. [00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family. [00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level. [00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time. [00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church. [00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential. [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive. [00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better. [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job. [00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job. [00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week. [00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down. [00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way. [00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak. [00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake. [00:47:37] Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions [00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got, [00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian. [00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing. [00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that

Karen Swallow Prior returns to the podcast to help us rethink what calling really is. It's not a passion we chase or a dream we conjure up, but something that comes from outside of us. Something we respond to. We talk about the slow work of vocation, how it shifts over time, and why pursuing what's true, good, and beautiful in ordinary life might be the most faithful thing we can do. This conversation is for anyone in the middle of change, trying to find their way, or wondering if the work they're doing still matters. There's room for all of it here.Karen Swallow Prior, Ph.D. is a popular writer and speaker. A former English professor, Karen is now a contributing writer for The Dispatch and a columnist for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Vox, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, and many other places. Her most recent book is You Have a Calling: Finding Your Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful (Brazos 2025).Karen's Book:You Have a CallingKaren's Recommendation:Small Things Like TheseSubscribe to Our Substack: Shifting CultureConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowSubscribe today at shiftingculture.substack.com for early, ad-free episodes and more! Support the show

Established In The Faith · Walking Worthy Of Our Vocation Ephesians 4:1-7 (KJV) 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

River of Life is an inter-denominational, interracial, Spirit-filled church located in the heart of Wakulla County, Florida. We share the sermons from our services in the hopes they'll reach others determined to worship God in spirit and truth.

River of Life is an inter-denominational, interracial, Spirit-filled church located in the heart of Wakulla County, Florida. We share the sermons from our services in the hopes they'll reach others determined to worship God in spirit and truth.

This week's program looks at Luke 3. What do we do now that our Savior is born? Get ready to chuckle or even chortle with Pastor “Jolly” John Lukomski and Pastor Matt “Youngblood” Clark as they take a humorous approach to Bible Study. Submit comments or questions to: listener@kfuo.org

Listen to a portion of St. Josemaria Escriva's Advent meditation, The Christian Vocation from the book Christ is Passing By. The passage comes from points 7-11.

Peter in many ways is the consummate disciple. We see his triumphs, his failures, and we see his life fully transformed by the love of Jesus. In this teaching we explore the Christian vocation to be with Jesus to be people made holy, shaped in expectant faith, tasting mercy, and ultimately serving the world out of our brokenness and calling. Support the show

About the episode: As part of our Innovation series, Ryan Russell, Vice President of Innovation and New Products at Compassion International, joins us in unraveling the intricacies of service-oriented innovation. Together, we discuss how innovation doesn't have to be huge to make an impact. Each step forward is rich with opportunities to learn. Ryan talks about the passion and humility we need towards our customers, employees, and/or clients. We also explore the intersection of creativity and connection in non-profit innovation, delving into Compassion International's multifaceted crusade against child poverty and how innovation forges new (and unconventional) pathways for connection and support.  Ryan's wealth of diverse career experiences underscores the transformative influence of a dedicated innovation team. This episode is an invitation to embrace the spirit of innovation in our everyday actions and in companies and organizations. Bio: Ryan Russell is Vice President of Innovation at Compassion International. He joined Compassion in July 2023 to lead the Compassion of Tomorrow team and grow Compassion's innovation function. Before Compassion, Ryan served as the Senior Vice President of Design and User Experience (UX) at Hinge Health and spent nine years at Amazon as the Director of Design & UX for Amazon Glow. Under his leadership, the team grew from two people to over 135 across five studios in the U.S. Before Amazon, he led McAfee's Design Studio, launched Cohdoo Highlight, an award-winning audio recording app, and designed novel consumer computing experiences at Intel. Resources: Compassion International Get our new FREE 56-page e-book, Called to Serve: How to Navigate a Christian Vocation in Humanitarian, Disaster, and Development Work. Spiritual First Aid ------------ This episode was produced by WildfireCreative  Theme Song: “Turning Over Tables” by The Brilliance Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Spotify | TuneIn | Stitcher | RSS Follow us on Twitter:  @drjamieaten |  @kentannan Follow on Instagram: @wildfirecreativeco @wheaton_hdi (Note to the listener: In this podcast, sometimes we'll host Evangelicals, and sometimes we won't. Learning how to “do good, better” involves listening to many perspectives with different insights and understanding. Sometimes, it will make us uncomfortable; sometimes, we'll agree, and sometimes, we won't. We think that's good. We want to listen for correction–especially in our blind spots.) The Better Samaritan podcast is produced by the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College, which offers an M.A. in Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership and a Trauma Certificate. To learn more and apply, visit our website. Jamie Aten, Ph.D., and Kent Annan, M.Div., co-direct the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College and are the Co-Founders of Spiritual First Aid. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fr. David Skillman discusses our Christian Vocation to Service and Kingship as we near the completion of our walk through Redemptor Hominis (Redeemer of Man), St. John Paul II's first encyclical. For more information on Covenant Network, please visit OurCatholicRadio.org

Today is the feast of the Evangelist St. Luke, a disciple of St. Paul. St. Luke is the third Evangelist, following Sts. Matthew and Mark. He penned those accounts of more intimacy and details about Our dear Lord's origin, virginal conception, birth, childhood and so forth. He was a practicing physician, much like Sts. Peter and Andrew and James and John were fishermen. They all had to have something solid to earn their keep to support themselves. The account of St. Paul in the first reading of the mass today, taken from St. Paul's second letter to Timothy gives us more ideas regarding how the work of evangelization was going. It was a lot about resources and their distribution to deliver the Church's services to the people.

In part one of this double episode, we suggested contemporary concepts of Christian vocation often suffer from being too thin or too narrow. In part two, Jacob and Jonathan get stuck into what the “counter-cultural ethical content of the gospel” might mean for thinking about vocation in a variety of Aussie circumstances. How might a richer understanding of the call of Christ on our lives play out in the everyday? Theme music: © Don Stewart, Recorded/Mixed by Unmuzzled Music Productions.

If we've heard and believed the good news of Jesus, what are we then supposed to do? If Christian faith is a call, what are we called to? These are the questions of Christian vocation, but if we've never heard a voice from God, does this mean we can simply do what we like? Are there things Christian should not do? Are there things we should all be doing? In part one on this topic, Jacob and Jonathan dig into the history and meaning of the Christian call and sketch a bigger vision. Theme music: © Don Stewart, Recorded/Mixed by Unmuzzled Music Productions.

What if the true depth of your Christian faith journey lies in understanding the very essence of your being - the supernatural part of your human nature? In this episode, Fr. Stephen and John  discern the critical role each of us plays in the Church and how we can align our daily tasks with the spirit of Christ. They explore the Apostolate of the Laity and its significance in the Church and then traverse the transformative power of baptism, the unveiling of our new creatureliness in Christ, and the imperative for this transformation to find manifestation. Father Sanchez provides profound insights into the supernatural aspect of our human nature, leading us to a deeper understanding of our ministry as Church members. They also discuss the responsibilities that accompany our Catholic faith and the interconnectedness of the living Church and the Church in Heaven.This episode isn't just an intellectual exploration; it's a call to action. They examine the essential role of the laity in evangelization and how we are called to live out gospel values in our society. Through thoughtful discussion, we'll learn how to infuse our daily tasks with a Christ-like spirit. They also touch on the importance of looking at others the way God sees them and how this perspective can transform our interactions. Be ready to engage and deepen your faith as they navigate the complex yet rewarding journey of living out our Christian vocation.Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!

How can I know God's "calling" for my life? For years I've been working at a difficult, uninteresting job. It has never brought me much in the way of happiness or satisfaction, but it has allowed me to provide for my family. As far as I'm concerned, that's the higher priority. Meanwhile, I'm always hearing Christian leaders say that God has a specific "calling" for my life, and that this "calling" includes my occupation. As far as I can see, this idea has no biblical support. What do you think?

Text: Ephesians 4:1-6

05/22/22 Fr Ankido Sipo - 6th Sunday of the Resurrection (English) by St. Peter's Chaldean Catholic Diocese

The Receptive Life  vlog series helps those harassed, bullied and attacked by the “unholy trinity” (the devil, the corrupt world, and the sinful flesh).Through Scriptural and Christ centered content, simple and practical step-by-step frameworks, and a return to and a daily repetition of the Christ centered spiritual disciplines of the Christian faith, you'll learn how to ...fight against the "unholy trinity"defend yourself with the promises of the person and work of Jesusand receive all of the gifts that only the Triune God can give.Here's a list of links to help you navigate through past videos or other digital resources:email vlog (sign up)​paulwarndt.com​​​​new ekklesia site​ (video resources in a "netflix" format)​"eXPlain it" portal​ (digital resources in curriculum format)

Coffee Break 12 - What Inspires You? No one stumbles into ministry. We were all called. No one would choose this unless they were called, right? Ministry is hard work—much of which is done behind the scenes. Sometimes we can get caught up in the routines of the work to the point where we run out of time to do the things which really inspire us. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for emails and texts…but they don't inspire me. I love meetings, but I'm rarely inspired by them. In my training I participated in a course called Christian Vocation. We explored what it means to live out a calling. One day we focused on what inspires us. They had an exercise for us to do to identify our inspiration. We did free-writing for 5 minutes on two statements. Free-writing is when you don't stop writing for a designated amount of time. You just start writing whatever thought comes to your head. If you don't have anything to write, then you write that—I don't have anything to write—until something come to mind. We did 5 minutes of free-writing to finish two statement…one at a time. The irst was this, “I love it when…” I began writing for 5 minutes based on that intro. I love it when… I wrote and wrote about things and instances and dreams which brought great joy to me. The second was, “I get angry when…” 5 minutes: “I get angry when…” https://10bibleverses.com/scripture-quotes/what-are-the-top-10-bible-verses/ I wrote and wrote about things that really bothered me and incited anger within me. After we finished, we divided into groups of 3 or 4 and took turns reading each other's free-writings. I was amazed at what I saw. No one wrote about what I did when it came to what they love or what made them angry. I had written about unity, connection, respect, dignity…and then lack of unity, connection, respect dignity. A friend wrote about nature and trees and then pollution and destruction. Another wrote about women's rights and then about sex-trafficking. The point was to figure out where our heart was focused. On what work inspires us and fulfills the longing of our souls. We were encouraged to get involved in some what with the things that inspire us. I don't know why I had assumed people loved and got angry about the same things I did. They didn't. And I didn't spend time dreaming and steaming about the things they did either. We realized that we are all given gifts and perspectives that vary. As a group of people, we were inspired to address a very high number of things in our community and world. It's as if…we are all needed and all inspired to serve different needs. Which is, of course, the truth. You are needed and the need God has for you involves your inspiration. You may assume others see what you see, but they don't. Others may assume you need to be inspired by what inspires them…but you may not be; and that's okay. If you've been feeling like something is missing… That you love life and ministry and your family and everything else you can name…but you also feel like there's more for you… try free-writing to see what it has to teach you. We are made to be inspired. We are made to be uniquely inspired. We are made to be a part of a larger body where many needs can be served together. So, my friend, go and find yours. Find what gets your heart pumping with both joy and frustration. Spend time in prayer about WHY those things get your heart pumping. Offer a prayer to God to help you live into what inspires you…and see where God takes you. Message brought to you by Rev. Joseph Sanford from The Sanford Curriculum written by Joseph and Lauren Sanford and available on sundayschool.store Music brought to you by The Muse Maker: themusemaker.com https://sundayschool.store/collections/easter-curriculum-for-childrens-ministry https://youthgroupministry.com/lessons/prodigal-son-youth-lesson-luke-15-gods-forgiveness-lesson/

Dr. Jeff Leininger, author, “Callings for Life” Callings for Life: God's Plan, Your Purpose

Why does the Church need a hierarchy? Is the Pope always infallible? What is the role of people who aren't priests or religious in the Church?In this episode we discuss the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.This episode covers Part One, Section Two, Chapter Three, Article Nine, Paragraphs 3-5 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.Contact the podcast: crashcoursecatholicism@gmail.com.Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crashcoursecatholicism/.....References and further reading/listening/viewing:John 14:16Matthew 16:13-20Peter Kreeft, "Chapter 7, The Holy Catholic Church" Catholic ChristianityA Complete Catechism of Catholic Beliefs Based on the Catechism of the Catholic ChurchPope Paul VI, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen GentiumThe Faith Explained, Chapter 11, The Catholic ChurchFr Mike Schmitz "Why Catholics Have a Pope"Fr Mike Schmitz "All Saints Day Pep Talk"Catholic Answers, "Papal Infallibility"Catholic Answers "How to Argue for Papal Infallibility"Catholic Answers, "Does Doctrine Change?"Catholic Encyclopedia, "The Pope"Catholic Encyclopedia, "Chronological List of Popes"Catholic Encyclopedia, "Ex Cathedra"History Answers, "How often does the Pope speak ex cathedra?"St Josemaria Escriva, "The Christian Vocation", Christ is Passing BySt Josemaria Escriva, "The Communion of Saints", The Way  St Josemaria Escriva, In Love With the ChurchAscension Presents, "Understanding the Authority of the Catholic Church"

If you've long wondered what your “calling” in life might be, then you're going to enjoy today's guest. Eric Stumberg is an entrepreneur with expertise in services, wireless technology, and helping people find their call. At this stage of his Christian and professional journey, Eric is leaning more fully into equipping the saints for and in their Kingdom work in the marketplace— through the church, his company, and faithful relationships. Today, you'll get to hear him talk all about that as well as why he believes that business is theology.

Matthew 5:1-16

So...I forgot to hit record! I left in the outtake!  Take Two! In this episode Pastor Dan Smail and Wendy Farone chat with Bishop Kurt Kusserow serving the Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod. Discussion focuses on what a synod is and does and how it fulfills the mission "To serve, connect & equip ELCA congregations in southwestern Pennsylvania to tell the story of Jesus."  Further, we discuss "vocation" and how we can serve others using our God-given talents. Here is a Spiritual  Gifts Assessment Tool to help you figure out yours! 

God at Work: You're Christian Vocation in All of Lifehttps://www.amazon.com/God-Work-Your-Christian-Vocation-ebook/dp/B00A0XABPG/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2TNQHGEQ4FLTA&dchild=1&keywords=god+at+work&qid=1612725465&sprefix=god+a+t+work%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-1Cranach-The Bog of Veithhttps://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/

God at Work: You're Christian Vocation in All of Life https://www.amazon.com/God-Work-Your-Christian-Vocation-ebook/dp/B00A0XABPG/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2TNQHGEQ4FLTA&dchild=1&keywords=god+at+work&qid=1612725465&sprefix=god+a+t+work%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-1 Cranach-The Bog of Veith https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/

Vocation is multi-faceted. We put it together like puzzle pieces: in careers, romantic relationships, our free time, our children, or a million other facets of our lives. Sometimes we do one thing to pay the bills so that we can do another thing for free that makes our souls sing. Sometimes vocational discernment is a wilderness experience. We wander, we wonder, we complain to God wishing we could go back. 

Dr. Jeff Leininger, author, “Callings for Life” Callings for Life: God’s Plan, Your Purpose

Jesse Straight is farmer and founder of Whiffletree Farm. The goal of Jesse’s business is “to farm in a way that is good for all parties involved: the land, the animals, our families, our customers, and our community.” Jesse explains what terms like “grass-fed” and “cage-free” really mean and how the COVID-19 pandemic is revealing the weaknesses in the industrial food system. He tells us about his relationship with the work of Wendell Berry, walks us through his decision to become a farmer, and gives his advice on vocational discernment.   Carbon sequestration and pasture-based farming   Wendell Berry   Imitating biological systems   The real meaning of “cage-free” and “grass-fed”   The benefits of interning at a farm   Why Christians should care about the industrial food system   Vocational discernment   Links Wendell Berry’s work Polyface Farm Joel Salatin books and DVDs Whiffletree Farm Whiffletree Farm Internships

This week Allen sits down with Mark Stone, who works for the Texas A&M University System, to discuss Christian vocation and how Christians can be witnesses in their jobs. 

175+ young adults met up at the monthly DC Theology on Tap for a talk by Fr. Gregory Pine O.P.!

Christian Vocation From Early Church to the Present The post Christian Vocation From Early Church to the Present appeared first on Christ Church of Austin.

Some traditions and institutions are created with the best of intentions, but when they do not work out as planned, rules and regulations designed to “fix things” can end up making matters worse. This is what the Smalcald Articles says happened in the case of Monastic Vows (Part III, Article XIV) and Human Traditions (Part III, Article XV). Rev. Anthony Oliphant, pastor of Redeemer Lutheran Church in Elmhurst, Illinois, joins host Rev. Sean Smith to discuss these articles.

Från bibelkonferensen 2019

18th Sunday in Year C

Jesus's testing by the Adversary in the wilderness was no garden variety temptation. His very identity is being called into question.

1st Sunday after Christmas DaySunday BulletinSermon Transcript

Christian Vocation: Antoine Claiborne, nonprofit/constructionSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Antoine ClaiborneChristian EducationDate: 28th October 2018

Christian Vocation: Geoff Stevens, Graphic DesignerSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Geoff StevensChristian EducationDate: 21st October 2018

Christian Vocation: James Fullton, architectSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: James FulltonChristian EducationDate: 14th October 2018

Christian Vocation: Janet Lydecker, psychologistSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Janet LydeckerChristian EducationDate: 7th October 2018

Christian Vocation: Julie Powell, stay-at-home parent & homeschoolerSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Julie PowellChristian EducationDate: 23rd September 2018

Christian Vocation: Barry Wu, Medical DoctorSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Barry WuChristian EducationDate: 16th September 2018

Overview of Christian VocationSeries: Every Good Endeavor: Visions of Christian Vocation Speaker: Greg HendricksonChristian EducationDate: 9th September 2018

Dr. Jay Lynch received his BA from the University of Virginia and MD from Eastern VA Medical School in 1984. In 1991 he returned to the UFCOM and has served in multiple roles during this tenure including, course director in Oncology (20 years), program director for hematology/oncology (13 years), section chief of hematology/oncology at the VAMC and now serves as the Assistant Dean for Admissions. In 2006 was honored by the University of Florida as one of 5 Distinguished Teaching Scholars. He was co-founder with his wife of the Christian Study Center at the University of Florida and serves as its board president. He and his wife Laura, have 4 children and 3 grandchildren.

Sakramenterne og livets mysterium : et evangelisk-luthersk perspektiv på det kristne liv

Revelation 14:12-13 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” We all have jobs. We are teachers, shop owners, contractors, plumbers, nurses, firefighters, as well as a variety of other things. We have vocations and many of us were trained for the jobs we do. Some of us wish we still had more training for we feel a bit shaky on the job, tons of responsibility and little margin for error. Yet when it comes to our Christian Vocation, what are we to be doing, learning, getting done in the mean time between Christ's first and second coming? What training should we be giving to others and receiving ourselves? The good news is that we find a lot of these answers in the book of Revelation. This resistance document would not be much of a document if it didn't encourage us in what and how to resist the powers that are waging war against the Lamb. And we all have jobs to do. Join us as we look at The Vocation of the Saints.  

Revelation 14:12-13 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” We all have jobs. We are teachers, shop owners, contractors, plumbers, nurses, firefighters, as well as a variety of other things. We have vocations and many of us were trained for the jobs we do. Some of us wish we still had more training for we feel a bit shaky on the job, tons of responsibility and little margin for error. Yet when it comes to our Christian Vocation, what are we to be doing, learning, getting done in the mean time between Christ's first and second coming? What training should we be giving to others and receiving ourselves? The good news is that we find a lot of these answers in the book of Revelation. This resistance document would not be much of a document if it didn't encourage us in what and how to resist the powers that are waging war against the Lamb. And we all have jobs to do. Join us as we look at The Vocation of the Saints.  

Good Shepherd Sunday sermon about how we are CALLED to a Christian Vocation -- to love in deed and truth as Jesus did. The Lesson | Acts 4:5-12 The Psalm | 23 The Epistle | 1 John 3:16-24 The Gospel | John 10:11-18

If your bracket has been busted and you have some free time on your hands this March, turn on Ringside with the preacher men! It's a win win. We will not let you down! So get that Filet Mignon off the grill, pour that Cognac, sit back and be entertained, informed and #blessed! Jesus loves you! We have a special guest, Kevin the IT guy! Kevin's our brilliant website composer and connection to the information superhighway. Also check out our new game, Which Guy in a Wheelchair Said It? Stephen Hawking or Larry Flynt TOPICS: 1. DOES JESUS CARE ABOUT RELIGIOUS LIBERTY? Philosophers and politicians should care, but not the church. God doesn't need religious liberty! And why would be happy that Muslims and proselyte our kids? 2. WHY PALM SUNDAY? Why does Jesus ride in on a donkey? What's the message He is sending? 3. STEPHEN HAWKING, THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING, CHRISTIAN VOCATION. What did Hawking contribute? Should Christians care? 4. KID CHURCH? For or Against? Why should I force my kids to stay in boring church? ARTWORK - Crucifixion by Pablo Picasso MUSIC: dead bees - i love my man J.S. Bach -Prelude and Fugue 5 Ghost Dogs - She wants to hold you in her heart

The Christian Vocation: "Do not be afraid" by Fr. Justin Gillespie

Business as Mission

00:00 - Introduction 02:57 - Scripture Narrative (Matthew 24:4-14) 08:12 - Main Topic (Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up?) On episode TWENTY-EIGHT of Let the Bird Fly! the guys welcome the ever-patient Rev. Dr. Matthew Richard. If you’re a regular listener, you may recall that on Episode 26 we tried to discuss Dr. Richard’s book with him on that episode, but technology would not cooperate. We are extremely grateful for pastor Richard’s patience and understanding; and we’re thrilled that we were finally able to get him on the show. We think you’ll be pretty happy about it too! Wade starts us off on this episode discussing Matthew 24:4-14, before getting to the main topic. You may notice that we skip the free-for-all in this one, but we think you’ll appreciate that extra time we spend discussing Dr. Richard’s recently published book Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? Twelve False Christs. In his book, Dr. Richard walks through twelve different false Christs that different people have presented to him throughout his ministry. As Dr. Richard says, each of these could be seen as a type of idol, that seeks to displace the real Jesus. The book is written for a lay audience and is very conducive to a study group setting. Through his narratives and explanations, Dr. Richard provides the reader with an honest account of these various errors, while the same time offering a thoroughly pastoral approach to confronting these false christs. If you are diggin’ this show, we’re confident you’re going to like this book. In fact, we’re so confident that we want to give away a free copy to one lucky listener! It’s been a while since we did a book giveaway, and this book is too good to pass up the opportunity. For all the information go to our BOOK GIVEAWAY PAGE and register to win. Even if you’re sure that you’ll win the book, order a copy to share with a friend (or your pastor). Dr. Richard has also provided a number of resources to go with the book, so order a copy and check out these great resources. Here are the relevant links: Order a copy of the book (and download a free chapter right away) Learn more about the book Check out the free online course designed for the book Download the “CHEAT-SHEET” chart (this is the one that the guys reference in the episode) And if you’d like more information on Dr. Richard, you can find out about him, his church, and what’s he’s up to, follow these links: His personal site The site for the congregation he’s currently serving worldvieweverlasting.com Thanks again to Rev. Dr. Matthew Richard for taking the time to talk with us about his new book. We enjoyed reading the book and were thrilled to get the chance to talk with him about it. And finally, if you’re looking for more information on the Nain Lecture Series that was mentioned on the previous episode, you can find it here. If you’re in the Milwaukee area, come and hear Drs. Johnston and Berg present on Christian Freedom and Christian Vocation. The lectures are Saturday, October 14th, 2017 from 3:30 - 5:30. As always, if you are enjoying the show, please subscribe, rate, and review us on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or TuneIn Radio. You can also like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. And, of course, share us with a friend or two! If you’d like to contact us we can be reached at podcast@LetTheBirdFly.com, or visit our website at www.LetTheBirdFly.com. Thanks for listening! Attributions for Music Used in this Episode: “The Last One” by Jahzzar is licensed under an Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 International License. “Horses to Water” by Topher Mohr and Alex Elena “Gib laut” by Dirk Becker is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives (aka Music Sharing) 3.0 International License. “Whistling Down the Road” by Silent Partner “Not Drunk” by The Joy Drops is licensed under an Attribution 4.0 International License.  

00:00 - Introduction 03:54 - Scripture Narrative (Revelation 12) 17:57 - Free-for-all (Favorite Breakfast Food) 28:47 - Main Topic (No Apologies, Apologetics) On episode TWENTY-SEVEN of Let the Bird Fly! the guys welcome back Rev. Dr. Michael Berg (he’s getting to be so regular, we’ll have to dismiss with the formalities soon). Dr. Berg joins us on this episode to discuss a favorite topic of his; namely, apologetics. All the guys are back together for this one along with a handful of their girls; we even have our first guest child on, as Dr. Berg brought one of his three daughters along to record with us. (I’m telling you, this guy’s getting far too comfortable around this podcast.) In our Scripture Narrative Wade takes us through a bit of Revelation and points us to Dr. Berg’s fantastic chapel sermon from the feast day of St. Michael and All Angels. The kids discuss their favorite breakfast foods with the guys, and Wade forces Oliva to wait for her turn to talk (it doesn’t go well). Finally we make it to the main topic, where Dr. Berg wonders why he agreed to come on the podcast….again; as the guys seem more eager to talk about their how Dr. Kerry Kuehn might be doing with the revelation that the earth may be flat, than to discuss the great work going on at International Academy of Apologetics, Evangelism, and Human Rights. (And seriously, they’re doing great work...and it’ a great excuse to visit France, so you should check it out!) If you can tune out the guys, however, and listen to Dr. Berg, you’ll recognize why he’s quickly becoming a fixture at Let the Bird Fly! If you haven’t listened to Dr. Berg’s previous episode or Wingin’ It with us, make sure you check them out: Episode 20: Vocation – The Masks of God Wingin’ It 26.2: Mike and Wade Talk Collars If you’re looking for more information on the Nain Lecture Series that Peter mentions as the end of the episode, you can find it here. If you’re in the Milwaukee area, come and hear Drs. Johnston and Berg present on Christian Freedom and Christian Vocation. The lectures are Saturday, October 14th, 2017 from 3:30 - 5:30. And finally a handful of links from the episode that were mentioned: International Academy of Apologetics, Evangelism, and Human Rights Heiko Oberman’s Man between God and the Devil Wade’s A Path Strewn with Sinners Craig Parton’s Religion on Trial Dr. Berg’s fantastic chapel sermon As always, if you are enjoying the show, please subscribe, rate, and review us on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or TuneIn Radio. You can also like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. And, of course, share us with a friend or two! If you’d like to contact us we can be reached at podcast@LetTheBirdFly.com, or visit our website at www.LetTheBirdFly.com. Thanks for listening! Attributions for Music Used in this Episode: “The Last One” by Jahzzar is licensed under an Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 International License. “Horses to Water” by Topher Mohr and Alex Elena “Gib laut” by Dirk Becker is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives (aka Music Sharing) 3.0 International License. “Whistling Down the Road” by Silent Partner “Not Drunk” by The Joy Drops is licensed under an Attribution 4.0 International License.  

On May 1st, the Catholic Church celebrates the feast of St. Joseph the Worker. To help us get to know St. Joseph better, Fr. Peter Armenio, priest of Opus Dei, reflects on the holiness of St. Joseph as the role model for the whole Church, especially the laity. St. Joseph is the template for the Christian vocation— the “all-star” of holiness. “We need devotion to St. Joseph,” Fr. Peter explains, “because my vocation is his vocation. He loved God with his whole mind, whole heart, and whole strength as a carpenter. He tried his very best. He made his carpentry the best. His carpentry was a medium to serve people. His work was a medium of prayer and sacrifice. And, his work was a medium of charity towards others.” THANK YOU FOR LISTENING! If you enjoyed today’s podcast, please leave a rating or review here on SoundCloud and on iTunes: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/st.-j…id966458405?mt=2 Don’t miss new podcasts and resources from the St. Josemaria Institute! Subscribe at: stjosemaria.org/subscribe/

As the summer approaches, many denominations will hold their annual, bi-annual, or quadrennial conferences and conventions. This is where denominational bodies battle out the details of their movements, doctrines, and leadership. The Southern Baptist Convention, United Methodist Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship, and many others will be meeting across the country during the summer months. How much do these conventions and conferences affect the average Christian's behavior and belief? Join Pastor Neal for this and other lively topics.

Jeremiah Gibbs is the Chaplain/Director of the Lanz Center for Christian Vocation and Formation at the University of Indianapolis. In Episode 08 we discuss his book Apologetics After Lindbeck which asks what it means to defend and tell the story of the Christian faith in today's world. We talk about the current state of apologetics and what nebulous words like "post-liberal" and "post-conservative" and "post-foundational" might mean.  You can find more of his writings at his website and blog: www.jeremiahgibbs.com.

Lesson Note: On the Sunday before Labor Day we celebrate Christian Vocation Sunday by hearing from three church members, who talk about how they live out their Christian faith on the job.