Podcast appearances and mentions of doug wilson

In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but grows powerfully through God's sovereign work. The mustard seed illustrates the kingdom's visible expansion (extensive growth), while the leaven highlights its internal transformative influence (intensive growth). Both parables emphasize that God's kingdom often appears to "disappear" initially but produces outsized results through His work, not our own. These parables provide encouragement for times when the church feels weak or our personal faith feels insufficient—God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's kingdom transforms both outwardly (extensive growth illustrated by the mustard seed) and inwardly (intensive growth shown by the leaven). Cultural transformation happens most effectively through ordinary Christian faithfulness rather than flashy or provocative engagement. Christians should not despise small beginnings, recognizing that faithfulness rather than visibility is the true measure of fruitfulness. Understanding Kingdom Growth: From Imperceptible to Unstoppable The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect. This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross. Finding Hope When Faith Feels Small One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work. These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan. As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter. Memorable Quotes "We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb "The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal "What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness. It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that? And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately. And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness. [00:02:31] Affirmations and Denials Explained Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming. And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment. We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language. Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology. He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla. So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we. Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about. Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us. Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel. Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh, Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us. Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against. So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something? [00:04:55] No Quarters November Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters. I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is. Um, and he, he paints it in language that, like, normally I'm very careful and I qualify everything and I have all sorts of nuance. But in November, I'm just gonna be a bull in a China shop, um, as though he's not already just a bull in a China shop 95% of the time. So I'm affirming no corridors. November maybe. No corners November. Everything should be rounded. Jesse Schwamb: That's good too. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. No, no. Quatro November. Like we don't do anything in Spanish. No fours in Spanish. I don't know. Okay. I'm just making fun of that. I'm just making fun of the whole thing. It's such a silly, dumb enterprise. There's nothing I can do except to make fun of it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's fair. That's basically the response it deserves. This time, we, we brought it up for several years going, it's such a strange thing. [00:06:13] Critique of Doug Wilson's Approach Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to see this thing as complete liberty to be sinful and then to acknowledge that. Yeah. As if somehow that gives you, reinforces that liberty that you're taking it, it's so strange. It's as if like, this is what is necessary and probably we'll get to this actually, but this is what is necessary for like the gospel or the kingdom of God to go forward is that kind of attitude at times. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this, I do always look forward every year to seeing what he sets on fire. 'cause the, the videos are pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. Like the video quality is, is certainly compelling. Um, and you could say it's lit is another little punny way to get at it. Uh, I, I haven't seen it this year. I mean, that's, we're recording this on November 1st, so I'm sure that it's out. Uh, I just haven't seen it yet. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, kind of ridiculous, uh, that anyone believes that Doug Wilson is restraining himself or engaging in lots of fine distinctions and nuance. You know, like the rest of the year and November is the time that he really like holds back, uh, or really doesn't hold back. That's, that's just a silly, it's just a silly gimmick. It's a silly, like, I dunno, it's a gimmick and it's dumb and so I'm gonna make fun of it 'cause that's what it deserves. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I was thinking recently because as you said, the counter just rolled over. And generally this time of year I end up always watching that documentary that Ligonier put together on Martin Luther, which is quite good. And I think it does, has a fair treatment of him, including the fact that he was so bombastic and that he was very caustic with his language. And I think they treat that fairly by saying, oh, that some of the same things that we admire in somebody can be some of the very same things which pull them into sinful behavior. And there's no excuse for that. And, and, and if that's true for him, then it's true for all of us, of course. And it's definitely true for Luther. So I think this idea, we need to be guarding our tongues all the time and to just make up some excuse to say, I'm not gonna do that. And in some way implying that there's some kind of hidden. Piety in that is what I think is just so disturbing. And I think most of us see through that for what exactly it is. It's clickbaits. It's this idea of trying to draw attention by being bombastic and literally setting things on fire. Like the video where he sets the boat on fire is crazy because all I can think of is like, so if you judge me, one more thing on this, Tony, 'cause I, I, when you said that, I thought about this video, the boat video implicitly, and I've thought about this a lot since then. There's a clip of him, he sets the boat on fire and it's kind of like him sitting on the boat that is engulfed in flames looking out into the sea, so, so calmly as if it's like an embodiment of that mean this is fine, everything is fine, this is fine. Right? Yeah. And all I can think of is that was great for probably like the two seconds that somebody filmed that, but guess what happened immediately after that? Somebody rescued you by putting out the fire on the boat. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's just like insanity to presume that, encapsulating that single moment and somehow conveying that he is a great champion, pioneer advocate of things of the gospel by essentially coming in and disrupting and being caustic and that him setting thing on fire makes everything better is a mockery, because that's not even exactly how that shoot took place. Yeah. So I, I just really struggle with that, with the perspective he is trying to bring forward. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I'm dubious whether or not there was actually any fire involved. Well, that's, I think 95% of it is probably camera magic, which is fine. Like, I don't know. That's fine. Like, I don't want Doug Wilson to burn up. That's, that wouldn't be cool either. But, um, yeah, I mean, like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy piece patience, kindness, good as gentleness, setting things on fire and being a jerk in November, apparently. And I, I just don't, I, I've never fully understood the argument. Um, and this is coming from someone who can be sarcastic and can go over the top and go too far. And, and I recognize that about myself. I've just never understood the argument that like, it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. Or, or not even just, okay. It's necessary to be a jerk sometimes. Exactly. Um, there's a difference between boldness and being a jerk. And, you know, I think, um, the people who, who know me well are gonna like fall off their chairs. I say this like, Michael Foster is actually someone who I think. Does the boldness with a little bit of an edge. I think he actually does it really well. And just like all of us, I, you know, he, he probably goes over the line, uh, on occasion. Um, and, and, but I think he does the, I'm just going to be direct and straightforward and bold. And sometimes that might offend you because sometimes the truth is offensive. Um, I think he does that well. I think where we go sideways is when we try to couch everything in sort of this offensive posture, right? Where, where even the things that shouldn't be offensive, uh, somehow need to be made offensive. It, it's just, it's dumb. It's just, um, and I'm, I'm not saying we should be nice just for the sake of being nice. I think sometimes being nice is. When I say nice, I mean like saccharin sweet, like, like overly uh, I don't know, like sappy sweets. Like we don't have to be that. And uh, there are times where it's not even appropriate to be that. Um, but that's different than just, you know, it's almost like the same error in the wrong direction, right? To be, just to be a jerk all the time. Sometimes our words and our behavior and our actions have to have a hard edge. And sometimes that's going to offend people because sometimes the truth, especially the gospel truth is offensive. Um, but when what you're known for is being a jerk and being rude and just being offensive for the sake of being offensive. Um, right. And, and I'll even say this, and this will be the last thing I say. 'cause I didn't, I, I really intend this just to be like a, a jokey joke. No quarters, November. I'm not gonna spend any quarters. Um, I don't know why I was foolish enough to think we weren't gonna get into it, but, um. When your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk. Even if that isn't true, it tells you that something is wrong with the way you're doing things. Right. Because I think there are times where, and I'll say this to be charitable, there are times where Doug Wilson says something with a little bit of an edge, and people make way too big of a deal out of it. Like they, they go over the top and try to condemn it, and they, they make everything like the worst possible offense. And sometimes, sometimes it's, it's just not. Um, and there are even times where Doug says things that are winsome and they're helpful and, um, but, but when your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk, or that you are inflammatory just to get a reaction, um, there's something wrong with your approach. And then to top it off, when you claim that for November, like you explicitly claim that identity as though that's not already kind of your shtick the rest of the year. Um, and just, it's just. Frustrating and dumb and you know, this is the guy that like, is like planting a church in DC and is like going on cnn. It's just really frustrating to see that sort of the worst that the reformed world has to offer in terms of the way we interact with people sometimes is getting the most attention. So, right. Anyway, don't, don't be a pirate. N November is still my way. I celebrate and, uh, yeah, that's, that's that. Jesse Schwamb: That's well said. Again, all things we're thinking about because we all have tendency to be that person from time to time. So I think it's important for us to be reminded that the gospel doesn't belong to us. So that means like that sharp edge, that conviction belongs to Christ, not to our personalities. So if it's tilted toward our personalities, even toward our communication style, then it means that we are acting in sin. And so it's hard for us to see that sometimes. So it does take somebody to say, whoa. Back it down a little bit there and you may need to process. Well, I'm trying to communicate and convey this particular truth. Well, again, the objective that we had before us is always to do so in love and salt and light. So I agree with you that there is a way to be forthright and direct in a way that still communicates like loving compassion and concern for somebody. And so if really what you're trying to do is the equivalent of some kinda spiritual CPR, we'll know that you, you don't have to be a jerk while you're doing it. You don't have to cause the kind of destruction that's unnecessary in the process. Even though CPR is a traumatic and you know, can be a painful event by it's necessary nature, we administer it in such a way that makes sure that we are, we have fidelity to the essential process itself, to the essential truths that's worth standing up for. Yeah, it's not a worth being a jerk. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:37] Practical Application of Parables Tony Arsenal: Jesse, let's, let's move along. What are you affirming or denying tonight Jesse Schwamb: and now for something much lighter? So, my, my affirmation I share at the risk of it being like so narrow that maybe nobody will actually want to use this, but I actually had you in mind. Tony, I've been sitting on this one for a little while 'cause I've been testing it. And so we're, we're just gonna run like an actual quick experiment 'cause I. I'm guessing you will find this affirmation useful and will come along with me and it and might even use it, but you and I are not always like representative of all the people in the world. I say that definitely tongue in cheek. So we're a little bit nerdy. We love our podcasts and so occasionally, I don't know if this happens to you, I'm guessing it does, but I want to capture like a moment that I heard while podcast is playing on my phone. Maybe somebody says something really interesting, it's great quotes, or it's mathematical nature and I wanna go back and process it. And so generally what I do is I, I don't know, I stop it. I try to go back and listen to it real quick if I can, or maybe I can't because running, driving, all that stuff. So. When I hear something now that I want to keep, I just cry out to my phone. I have an, I have an iPhone, so I say, Siri, you could do this with Google. Take a screenshot. What happens is the phone captures an image of my podcast app with a timestamp showing of course what's being played. Then I forward this image, this is the crazy affirmation part. When it's time to be alive, I forward this image to a certain email address and I get back the text transcript of the previous 90 seconds, which I can then either look at or file into my notes. What is this email address sent it to you. Well, here's the website so you can go check it out for yourself though. Website is actually called Podcast Magic App, and there's just three easy steps there, and this will explain to you how you actually get that image back to you in the format of a transcript. And the weird thing about this is it's, it's basically free, although if you use it a lot, they ask for like a one-time donation of $20, which you know me, I love. A one time fee. So I've been using this a lot recently, which is why I've been sitting on it, but it is super helpful for those of you who are out there listening to stuff. They're like, oh, I like that. I need to get that back. And of course, like you'll never get it back. So if you can create this method that I've done where you can train your phone to take a snapshot picture of what's on the screen, then you can send it to Podcast Magic at Sublime app, and they will literally send you a transcript of the previous 90 seconds no matter what it is. Tony Arsenal: That is pretty sweet. I'll have to check that out. Um, I don't listen to as many podcasts as I used to. How dare you? I just, the I know. It's, it's crazy. Where do we even do it Feels like heresy to say that on a podcast that I'm recording. Yes. Um, Jesse Schwamb: we've lost half the audience. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Well, yeah. Well, the other half will come next. Um, no, I, I, I just don't have as much time as I used to. I, I live closer to work than I used to and um, I'm down to, we're down to one car now, so, um, your mother is graciously giving me a ride to work. Um, 'cause she, she drives right past our house on the, the way and right past my work on the way to her work. Um, but yeah, so I guess I say that to say like, the podcast that I do listen to are the ones that I really wanna make sure I'm, I am, uh, processing and consuming and, uh, making sure that I'm kinda like locking into the content. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Tony Arsenal: So this might be helpful for that when I do hear something and I do think, like, it's hard because I use matter, which is great, and you can forward a podcast to matter and it generates a whole transcript of the entire episode, which is great. Um, but I don't often go back and, you know, a lot of times, like I'll go through my matter, uh, queue and it'll be like three weeks after I listened to a podcast episode, I be like, why did I put this in here? Right? I get that. I don't wanna listen to the entire 60 minute episode again to try to remember what that special thing was. So I just end up archiving it. So this might be a good middle ground to kind of say like, I might set, I might still send it to matter to get the whole transcript, but then I can use this service to just capture where in the transcript actually was I looking for? Um. It's interesting. I'll have to look at it too, because you can, you can send, uh, through Apple Podcast, the Apple Podcast app and through most podcast apps, I think. Right? You can send the episode with the timestamp attached to it. Yes. So I wonder if you could just send that, that link. Okay. Instead of the screenshot. Um, you know, usually I'm, I'm not. Uh, I don't usually, I'm not driving anymore, so usually when I'm listening to a podcast I have, my hands are on my phone so I could actually send it. So yeah, I'll have to check that out. That's a good recommendation. Jesse Schwamb: Again, it's kind of nuanced, but listen, loved ones, you know what you get with us, you're gonna get some, it could be equally affirmation, denial that Doug involves Doug Wilson, and then some random little thing that's gonna help you transcribe podcasts you listen to, because life is so hard that we need to be able to instantly get the last 90 seconds of something we listen to so that we can put it into our note taping at note taking app and put it into our common notebook and keep it. Yeah, there you go. Tony Arsenal: There's a lot of apps. There was actually a, a fair number of apps that came out a while ago that were, they were trying to accomplish this. Where you could, as you were listening to the podcast, in that app, you could basically say, highlight that and it would, it would highlight whatever sentence you were on. But the problem is like by the time you say highlight that you're already onto the next sentence, you now you're going back trying to do it again. And I didn't find any of that worked really seamlessly. It was a lot of extra friction. So this might be kind of a good frictionless or less friction way to do it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm totally with you. [00:20:08] The Kingdom of Heaven Parables Jesse Schwamb: I mean, speaking of like things that cause friction, there's no doubt that sometimes in Jesus' teaching on the parables that he himself brings the heat, he brings a little friction in his communication. And since you and I basically did go through each of these parables, we don't have do that again on this conversation. In fact, what I'm looking forward to is kind of us coming together and coalescing our conversation about these things, the themes that we both felt that we heard and uncovered in the course of talking through them. But I think as well ending with so what? So what is some real good shoe leather style, practical application of these ideas of understanding the kingdom of God to be like this mustard seed and like this lemon. So why don't I start by just reading. Again, these couple of verses, which we're gonna take right out of Matthew chapter 13. Of course, there are parallel passages in the other gospels as well, and I'd point you to those if you wanna be well-rounded, which you should be. And so we're gonna start in verse 31 of chapter 13. It's just a handful of verse verses. Here's what Matthew writes. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It's the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. He told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Alright? Yeah. So Tony, what do you think? Tony Arsenal: Uh, I mean, these are so like, straightforward. It was almost, it, it felt almost silly trying to like explain them. Yeah. One of the things that, that did strike me, that I think is worth commenting too, um, just as a, a general reminder for parables, we have to be careful to remember what the parable is saying, right? So I, I often hear, um. The smallness of the mustard seed emphasized. Mm-hmm. And I think your, your commentary, you did a good job of kind of pointing out that like there's a development in this parable like it, right? It's a progression and there's an eschatology to it, both in terms of the, the parable itself, but also it comments on the eschatology of the kingdom of heaven. But it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. It's the kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sewed in his field. Right? It's that whole clause that is the, the kingdom of heaven is like likewise, the kingdom of heaven is not just like leave, it's like leave that a woman took in hidden in three measures of flour till all was leavened. So when we're looking at these parables. Or when we're looking at really any parable, it's important to make sure that we get the second half of the, the comparison, right? What are we comparing the kingdom of heaven to? You know, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a sower who sowed seeds among, you know, in three types of four types of soil. This kingdom of Heaven is like, this is like that. We don't wanna miss part of the parable because we latch on to just like the first noun, and that follows the word like, um, but I think these are great, these are great little, um, parables that in some ways are almost like, uh, compliments or ex explanations of the other parables that we're looking at too. They, they explain to us something more about what the Kingdom of Heaven is using similar kinds of analogies that help us flesh out the parables that are surrounding them. So the Kingdom of Heaven. You know, again, we always want to caution against kind of like overinterpreting, the parables, but the, the parable of the sower is talking about the seed that is sewn into the field, right? And then there's the parable of the wheat and the tears, and there's seed again. And we, we might have a tendency to sort of miss the nature of the kingdom in a certain sort of dynamic. This fleshes this out. So we might think of like the parable of the sowers, like we don't know what, what proportion is of good soil, you know, good soil versus bad. We know that there's three types of soils that are bad soils or unproductive soils and one type, but we don't know like how much of the soil is, um, like what percentage of the field is that. Similarly, like we don't know what percentage of the field was wheat and what was weeds. This is kind of reminding us that the, the kingdom of heaven is not found primarily in the, um, the expansiveness of it. Right. It's not, it's not initially going to look like much. It's going to initially start out very small. Right. And in some ways, like in both of these, it appears to disappear entirely. Right? You sow a grain of mustard seed. I don't, I've never seen a mustard seed, so, but it's very small. Obviously you sow that into the ground. You're not gonna find it again, you're not gonna come back a week later and dig up that seed and figure out where you sewed it. Um, similarly, like you put a, you put a very small amount of yeast or lemon into a three measures of flour. You're not gonna be able to go in even probably, even with a microscope. You know, I suppose if you had infinite amount of time, you could pick a every single grain of flour, but you're not gonna be able to like go find that lemon. It's not gonna be obvious to the eye anymore, or even obvious to the careful searcher anymore. So that's what the kingdom of heaven is like in both of these. It's this very small, unassuming thing that is hidden away. Uh, it is not outwardly visible. It is not outwardly magnificent. It is not outwardly even effective. It disappears for all intents and purposes. And then it does this amazing thing. And that's where I really think these, these two parables kind of find their unity is this small, unassuming thing. That seems ineffectual actually is like abundantly effectual in ways that we don't even think about and can't even comprehend. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yeah. I would say almost it's as if it's like, well, it's certainly intentionally, but almost like offensively imperceptible. And I think that's the friction that Jesus brings with him to the original audience when he explains it this way. So again, from the top, when we said this idea that the kingdom of God is imperceptible, it's hidden, it grows, it conquers, it brings eschatological resolution. And I'm just thinking again, in the minds of the hearers, what they would've been processing. I think you're spot on. I liked your treatment of that by focusing us to the fact that there is verb and noun and they go together. We often get stuck on the nouns, but this, that verb content means that all of this, of course, is by the superintendent will of God. It's volitional. His choice is to do it this way. It is again, where the curse becomes the blessing, where it's the theology of the cross or theology of glory, where it is what is small and imp, perceptible and normal by extraordinary means becomes that which conquers all things. And so I can. Picture, at least in my mind, because I'm a person and would, would wanna understand something of the kingdom of God. And if I were in a place, a place of oppression physically and spiritually living in darkness, to have this one who claims to be Messiah come and talk about the inauguration of this kingdom. My mind, of course, would immediately go to, well, God's kingdom must be greater than any other kingdom I could see on this earth. And I see it on the earth that the sun rises. And cast light across provinces and countries and territories in a grand way. And then we have this kingdom of God, which, you know, theory, the, the sun should never set on it and the sun should never be able to shine, but on a corner of it. And it doesn't have provinces or countries, it doesn't even have continence, but it has, it encapsulates worlds. And it doesn't stretch from like shore to shore or sea to shining sea, but from sun to sun or star to star from the heavens to the earth, its extent couldn't be surveyed. Its inhabitants couldn't be numbered. Its beginning, could never be calculated because from Tard past, it had no bounds. And so I'm just thinking of all these things and then like you said, Jesus says, let me tell you what it's really like. It's like somebody throwing a tiny seed into a garden. Or it's like a woman just making bread and she puts yeast into it. These seem like not just opposites, but almost offensive, I think, in the way that they portray this kingdom that's supposed to be of great power and sovereign growth, but it comes in perceptibly and how perfect, because the one who's delivering this message is the one who comes imperceptibly, the person of Christ preaching the gospel and the hearts of believers. But that grows into a vast and global proportion, and that of course, that aligns exactly with so many things you and I have talked about in process before. These doctrines are providence and sovereign grace, that God ordains the means that is the seed and ensures the outcome, which is the tree. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, um, you know, I don't, I don't know of any affinity with mustard seed in like the Old Testament law, but there's, there's a sort of a reversal of expectation here too, because although Levin is not always associated with like impurity, um, I think most Jewish listeners would immediately have a negative connotation with Levin for sure. Right? So when, when all of a sudden he's comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven it, it becomes sort of this, um, the reason Levin is so pernicious and the reason that in the Old Testament law, you know, they're, they're, they're not just not making their bread with leave for the, for the Passover. They have to like sweep out their whole house. They have to empty all their stores out. They have to clear everything out. And that's not just because like. In, in, in Old Testament, sort of like metaphors, leaven does get associated with sin, right? Uh, and that gets carried on into the New Testament, but just the actual physical properties of leaven is like, if there's any little bit of it left on the shelf or even in the air, like even on your hands, it's can spoil the whole batch. It can cause the entire batch to go a different direction than you want it to. And in a certain way, like the Kingdom of Heaven is like that, right? Um. [00:30:21] The Resilience of God's Kingdom Tony Arsenal: You hear about, um, you hear about situations where it seems like the presence of God's people and the, the kingdom of God is just, it's just eradicated. And then you find out that there's actually like a small group of believers who somehow survived and then like Christianity is thriving again like 50 years later. Um, you can't just wipe out the kingdom of heaven because it is like leaven and any small remaining remnant of it is going to work its way back through the entire batch in a way that is, uh, mysterious and is somewhat unpredictable and is certainly going to surprise people who are not expecting it to be there. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:31:04] Understanding Theological Concepts Jesse Schwamb: One of the things I really picked up in your treatment of that, that kind of drew me in in a special way was, you know, we think of some theological terms. We have really, I think, strong. Rubric for processing them, and especially like their multifaceted nature. So for instance, when we think about sanctification, we often talk about positional and progressive. And those are really helpful ways to understand a concept that brings us into modeling where it's finite and precise to a degree that allows us to understand it and comprehend it with a greater degree of confidence. And knowing it's many parts, because it is many parted. [00:31:36] The Parable of the Leaven Jesse Schwamb: And I was thinking as you were talking about the leaven, how the kingdom of heaven here that is inaugurated by Christ, that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit is growth and always deny that. But what you drew out for me was I think we're definitely seeing in that this idea of the intensive growth and then of course in the. Parable of the mustard seed. It's more extensive growth and they're both important. So they're in consummate harmony. It's not just like one recapitulating the other. And what that made me think about was even as you were speaking now, this really interesting difference, you know, the woman is taking this, again, talking about the verb, there's two nouns here actually. There's like the, the proper pronoun of the woman there is the act which she's doing, which she's taking the leaven and working it as it were like into the flower. I just did like a weird motion here on the camera if you're watching on uh, YouTube. Sorry about that. [00:32:28] Practical Lessons from Bread Making Jesse Schwamb: Almost like I was giving CPR, but she's working it into this meal or this flower and the working it from within outwards and that working itself like changes the whole substance from the center to the surface of this meal. Now I was thinking about this 'cause you noted something about bed bread. Bread baking in yours. And I did actually just a couple weeks ago, make some bread and the recipe I was using came with this like huge warning. Some of the recipes are like this, where when you're using some kinda lemon, most of the time we're using yeast. You have to not only be careful, of course, about how much yeast you put in because you put in too much, it's gonna blow the whole thing up. You're gonna have serious problems. You're not gonna make the bread anymore, you're gonna make a bomb, so to speak, and it's gonna be horrible. You're not gonna want to eat it. But the second thing is the order in which you add the ingredients, or in this recipe in particular, had very explicit instructions for when you're creating the dry ingredients. When you have the flour, make a little well with your finger and delicately place. All of the yeast in there so that when you bring the dough together, when you start to shape it, you do it in a particular way that from the inside out changes the whole thing so that there's a thorough mixing. Because the beauty of this intensive change is that. As you know Tony, like there's so many things right now in my kitchen that are fermenting and I talked about before, fermenting the process of leavening something is a process of complete change. It's taking something that was before and making it something very different. But of course it retains some of the essential characteristics, but at the same time is a completely different thing. And so it's through a corresponding change that man goes to whom the spirit of God communicates His grace. It's hidden in the heart and chain begin, change begins there. You know, the outward reformation is not preparing a way for inward regeneration. It's the other way around that regeneration, that reformation on the outside springs from a regeneration that's on the inside, growing out of it as a tree grows from a seed as a stream flows from the spring or as leave, comes and takes over the entire lump of dough. [00:34:26] The Power of Small Beginnings Jesse Schwamb: It's amazing. This is how God works it. We again, on the one side we see the kingdom of heaven. That is like the manifestations of his rule in rain coming, like that seed being sown and growing into this mighty tree. It brings shade. The birds come nest in it. And that may be a reference Allah to like Ezekiel or Daniel, the Gentiles themselves. There's that inclusion. And then to be paired with this lovely sense that, you know what else, anywhere else, the power of the kingdom of heaven is made. Manifest is in every heart in life of the believer. And so the Christian has way more in religion in their outer expression than they do anybody else. Because the inner person, the identity has been changed. Now you and I, you and I harp all the time on this idea that we, we don't need some kind of, you know, restoration. We need regeneration. We don't need to be reformed merely on the outside by way of behaviors or clever life hacks. We need desperately to be changed from the inside out because otherwise we. Where it's just, I don't know, draping a dead cold statue with clothing, or all we're doing is trying to create for ourselves a pew in the house of God. What we really need is to be like this bread that is fully loving, that grows and rises into this delicious offering before the world and before God. Because if you were to cut into this outwardly looking freshly baked bread and find that as soon as you got through that delicious, hard, crispy crust on the outside, that in the inside all it was, was filled with like unprocessed, raw flour, you would of course say, that's not bread. I don't know what that is. But that's not bred. What a great blessing that the promise that God gives to us is that the kingdom of God is not like that. It lies in the heart by the power of God. And if it's not there, it's not anywhere. And that though the Christian May at times exhibit, as we've talked about before, some kinda hypocrisy, they are not essentially hypocrites. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is leavening us by the power of the Holy Spirit. That gospel message is constantly per permeating that yeast through all of who we are, so that it continues to change us. So that while the natural man still remains, we are in fact a new creation in Christ. So to start with, you know, bread and or not bread to end with bread, but to start with flour and water and yeast and salts, and to be transformed and changed is the intensive power of the growth of the gospel, which is with us all our lives, until we have that beautific vision. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, to kind of take a, a pivot maybe to the practical, I think this is, this is not the point of the parable necessarily 'cause the parable. I think there's a lot that these parables have to say to us about like, personal, individual growth, but they really are about the growth of the kingdom or the, the, maybe necessarily the growth of the kingdom. I think that's there too. But really like the nature of the kingdom as this sort of like, hidden, hidden thing that then grows and creates big results. [00:37:34] Encouragement in Times of Darkness Tony Arsenal: I, I think this is a, this is a parable that should encourage us. Like absolutely for sure we should look to this and, and be encouraged because. It is not the case. Um, I know there are lots of people who wanna act as though like this is the worst time anyone has ever lived in, and everything is the worst as it's ever been. It's, this is not even close to the worst time that the church has ever existed in, um, there are, it's funny, um, we'll give a little plug. Some of our listeners have started their own new show called Over Theologizing, and, um, it, it was, it was funny listening to the second episode they had, um. Pete Smith was on there and they were saying, like, they were talking about like, how do you feel about the nature of the church? And Pete was like, it's fine. Like it's great out here. Like there's lots of churches, lots good. Like I, I think that there are pockets in our, in our world, um, particularly, you know, my, my former reference is Western World and in the United States and in some senses in, in Europe, um, there are certainly pockets of places where it's very dark and very difficult to be a Christian, but by and large it's not all that challenging. Like, we're not being actively persecuted. They're not feeding us to the lions. They're not stealing our businesses. They're not, um, murdering us. You know, like I said, there are exceptions. And even in the United States, there are places where things are moving that direction. But there are also times when the church is going to feel dark and small and, and like it's failing and, and like it's, it's weak. And we can look at these parables and say, the fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power that does not rob the kingdom of heaven of its power. It in, in actuality that smallness is its power, right? Leave is so powerful of an ingredient in bread because you need so little of it, right? Because that it, you can use such a small quantity of lemon to create such a, a huge result in bread. That's the very nature of it. And it, its efficacy is in that smallness. And you know, I think the mustard seed is probably similar in that you, you don't need to have, um. Huge reaping of, of mustard seed in order to produce the, the crop that is necessary, the trees that are necessary to, to grow that. So when we look around us and we see the kingdom of heaven feeling and maybe actually even being very small in our midst, we should still be encouraged because it doesn't take a lot of leave to make the bread rise, so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot. And, and again, like of course it's not our power that's doing it, that's where maybe sort of like the second takeaway, the baker doesn't make the bread rise by his own like force of will, right? He does it by putting in this, this agent, you know, this ingredient that works in a sort of miraculous, mysterious way. It's obviously not actually miraculous. It's a very natural process. But I think for most of history. So that was a process that probably was not well understood, right? We, we, people didn't fully understand why Bread did what it did when you used lemon. They just knew that it did. And I think that's a good takeaway for us as well, is we can't always predict how the kingdom of heaven is gonna develop or is gonna operate in our midst. Um, sometimes it's gonna work in ways that seem to make a lot of sense, otherwise it's gonna seem like it's not doing anything. Um, and then all of a sudden it does. And that's, that's kind of where we're at. Jesse Schwamb: I like that. That's what a great reminder. Again, we all often come under this theme that God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that he is, he's always working and even we've just come again on the calendar at least to celebrate something of the Reformation and its anniversary. Uh. What again, proof positive that God's kingdom will not fail. That even in the places where I thought the gospel was lost or was darkens, even in Israel's past in history, God always brings it forward. It cannot, it will not die. [00:41:26] Faithfulness Over Visibility Jesse Schwamb: So I wanna tack onto that by way of, I think some practical encouragement for ministry or for all believers. And that is, let's not despise small beginnings. Like let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel. This is from um, Zacharia chapter four, beginning of verse eight. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, the hands of the rebel have laid the foundation of this house. His hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zabel. So I love this encouragement that is for all Christians. That's one. Again, God is doing all the verbs like just. For one last time for everybody in the back. God does all the verbs. Yeah, and in so doing, because he is doing all the verbs, he may, but he chooses to start with small things because again, he is always showing and exemplifying his glory and he does this in these normative ways. It's a beautiful expression of how majestic and powerful he is. So let's embrace those things with be encouraged by them. The gospel may appear weak or slow in bearing fruit, yet God guarantees its eventual triumph. God guarantees that he's already stamped it. It's faithfulness and not visibility. That's the measure of fruitfulness. So if you're feeling encouraged in whatever it is that you're doing in ministry, the formal or otherwise, I would say to you. Look to that faithfulness, continue to get up and do it, continue to labor at it, continue to seek strength through the Holy Spirit, and know that the measure of his fruitfulness will come, but maybe in a future time, but it will come because this is what God does. It's God doing all the work. He's the one, he's essentially the characters needs of these parables, sowing the seed, working in lemon. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think, you know, like I said, the, the parables are not necessarily about individual personal growth. Um, but I, I think the principle that is here applies to that as well is I think oftentimes we feel like, um. I'll speak for myself. There are have been many times in my walk as a Christian, um, where it just feels like nothing's happening. Right? Right. Like, you just feel like it's dry and like you, you're, you know, you're, you're not like you're falling into some great sin or like you've walking away from the faith, but it just feels sort of dry and stale and like God isn't doing anything. And, um, I've only ever tried to bake bread once and it was a, it was just a terrible, terrible failure. But, um, I think one of the things that I've. I've read about people who bake bread is that there is a level of patience that has to come with it, right? Because oftentimes it seems like the bread isn't rising. It seems like the, the lemon is not doing what it's supposed to do until it does. Right? And like, if you take the bread out of the oven every couple of minutes to check and see if it's rising, it's never going to rise. It's never going to do what it's supposed to do. And, um, you know, I think that is kind of like the Christian life in microcosm too, is we, we have these spiritual disciplines that we do. We pray, we read the scriptures, we attend faithfully to the Lord's Day service. And oftentimes it doesn't feel like that's doing anything right. But it is. The Kingdom of Heaven is at work in not only in our midst as a corporate body, but the kingdom of heaven is at work in each of us as well. That's right. God's, God's grace and his, uh, special providence and his spirit of, of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. Um, he is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see, um, outward progress or not. If the spirit dwells within us, he is necessarily making us holy and necessarily sanctifying us. Um, and and so I want us to all think about that as we, we kind of wrap up a little bit here, is we shouldn't be. I, I don't wanna say we shouldn't be discouraged, um, because it's easy to get discouraged and I don't want people to feel like I'm like, you should never be discouraged. Like sometimes the world is discouraging and it's frustrating, and it's okay to feel that, but we should be able to be encouraged by this parable. When we look at it and we remember like, this is just. This is just the parable form of Paul saying like, God glories by using the weak to demonstrate his strength. Exactly right. He, he is, his power is shown in, in using the weak and frail things of this life and this world to accomplish his purposes. And so when we are weak, when we are feeling as though we are failing as Christians, we should be able to look at this and say, well, this is what the kingdom of heaven is like. It's like a tiny mustard seed, a tiny mustard seed of faith that grows into a large tree. It's, it's like this little little spark of leave that God puts in us and it's hidden in us and it leavens the whole loaf. And that's us, right? And that's the church, that's the kingdom. It's the world. Um, God is at work and he is doing it in ways that we would not ordinarily see. Even the person who has this sort of like explosive Christian growth. That's not usually sustained. I think most people when they first come to faith, especially if they come to faith, you know, as a teenager or a young adult, um, they come to faith and they have this like explosive period of growth where they're like really passionate about it and on fire. And then that, that passion just kind of like Peters out and you kind of get into like the, the day in, day out of Christianity, um, which is not, it's not flashy. It's not sexy, it's not super exciting. It's very boring in a lot of ways, like right, it's, it's basic bread, it's basic water. It's hearing a, a person speak and it's, it's reading words on a page. But when the Holy Spirit uses those things, he uses them faithfully to finish the work that he started. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The spirit's work of leavening, it continues quietly, but it powerfully, yeah. And we shouldn't despise that quietness or that smallness that I think is altogether a gift of God. And again, we're talking about the one who embodies the perfect will of God, who came and condescended to his creation was like us in every eight, where every way without sin. This is the one who became, I think as Paul writes in Galatians, a curse for us. And so again, this blessedness arises out of, again, what I think is this offensive means. And if that is the model that Christ gives to us, we ourselves shouldn't despise that kinda small beginning or even despise the sacrifices we're often called to make. Or those again, I would say like offensively and auspicious kinds of beginnings. All of that is peace wise, what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And there's a beauty in that. And I would say, I want to add to what you said, Tony, 'cause I think it was right on, is this idea that's easy to be discouraged is. It doesn't require any explanation. I, I, I'm totally with you. If you were to pick up any, or go to any kind of website and just look at the headlines for their news reporting, you're going to find plenty of reasons to be discouraged and to feel melancholy. And yet at the same time when I think we, you and I talk about these things, what I'm prone to consider is what Paul writes elsewhere to the church in Corinth, where he says in two Corinthians chapter 10, we destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. Being ready to punish every disobedience when you're disobey, when you're obedience is complete. And so what I think that applies to us in this particular case is understanding that this is the promise of God. Like you're saying, you and I are saying. Discouragement happens. And yet the truth is that small inauspicious beginnings in the kingdom of heaven always result in outsized gains that God never ceases to work. That he's always with us, that he's always for us. Then we do have to take captive those thoughts that lead us into kind of a disproportionate melancholy that pull us away or distract us from this truth of God, the knowledge of God, which is that he is super intending, his sovereign will completely over every molecule in the universe because this is what the Kingdom of Heaven does. And so that gives us, I think as I said last week, hope and evangelism we're storming those gates of hell we're coming for you like because there is a triumphalism in Christ that will be manifested in the final day. It's the reformed understanding of the here but not quite yet. [00:49:57] Cultural Engagement as Christians Jesse Schwamb: And like the last place that Le that leads me to like some practical, I think application is, and I wanna be careful with this, so I'm curious for your opinion. It's cultural engagement. You know, if we're thinking about this, leave permeating this dough, this tiny seed growing to overtake the garden, then I think believers should labor to continue to bring biblical truth into every sphere. So your family, your vocation, arts, politics, everything under Christ's lordship. I think sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be. As we've talked about the top of the show, really outspoken in a provocative kind of way. I think sometimes, again, that same quiet though, consistent work that the Holy Spirit does that's powerful in leavening us is the same thing that we can do with just our attitudes at work or our attitudes in our family, or our willingness to serve or our kind words. Of course, it does require us to preach the gospel using words. It also means that the power of the leaven is that quiet power. It doesn't jump outta the bread. It doesn't boast, but it is present. So maybe I'm saying Christians, let's be present, and leavening means to be present with the attitude and the mind of Christ. What? What do you think? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's right on, you know, um, it, it's not quite a parable, but Christ, Christ commands his people to be like salt and light and true. Um, and, and by saying that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven, you know, like a, a measure of leaven that was hidden away in three measures. Um, he's also commanding us to be like leaven, right? And he is commanding us to be like the, the mustard seed because that is what we are. And I think, um, we shouldn't think that we can cloister off or sequester off the kingdom of heaven from the rest of culture and create like, um, I'm not quite, uh, I'm not quite to the point where I'm, I'm a transformational in the sort of like Tim Keller sense, but I do think that. We, and I don't like this word, but I'm not sure of a better, a better way to say it, but like, we like to set up these little Christian ghettos where like we, we isolate ourselves culturally into these little subcultures and these little sort of cordoned off areas of culture. Um, where we, we actually then strive to look just like the culture that's around us, right? Right. We subsection off Christian music and although it's, you know, typically it's like a decade behind the curve in terms of what music is good, we're really just doing the same music as the rest of the world. We just baptize it with Christian language. Like, I remember my, my youth pastor in high school rewrote the song closing time to Be Quiet Time. And like that was like, that was like the most Christian thing he could do at the time, was rewrite the lyrics to a song. But like, that's, that's absolutely not what cultural transformation looks like. Right. Well, cultural transformation, and maybe I'm channeling a little bit of, of Michael Foster here, what cultural transformation looks like. Is is a man who gets married and loves his wife, well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church, right? Like that's, that's cultural transformation. And in our culture, like that is a very counter-cultural way to do things. It's actually very counter-cultural. There have been times when that's not particularly countercultural and there probably will be times again where it is. And actually it seems like our broader American culture is moving away from the sort of like two kids, two kids and a dog is a, is a bygone era fantasy. And now it's like two single people living in a house together with a dog. Um, you know, and, and that's not to say that that's the only way to be, to transform culture, right? That's just one example of sort of the most mundane, natural thing is actually the way that we do it. Um. We transform culture by, um, by being honest, having integrity, yes. By, um, working hard, right? Yes. Going to work, doing your job well, uh, without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades, um, and just doing a good job because that's what God commands us to do when he tells us to honor our employers and to be good, faithful bond servants in the Lord. Um, that is also very, uh, that also will transform culture. Um, you know, I think we think of cultural transformation and we, I think we immediately go to, for better or worse, we go to like the Doug Wilsons of the world and we go like, that guy's engaging the culture. Well, yeah, I guess in a certain sense he is. Um, or we, or we go to. The Tim Keller's of the world where they are, they're engaging culture in a different way. But I think for most of us, for most Christians, our cultural engagement is very nor like very normal and very boring. It's living a very ordinary, quiet life. Um, you know, what does Paul say? Work quiet life. Mind your own business. Work with your hands, right? Like, don't be a busy body. Um, like that's, that's actually the way that culture is transformed. And that makes perfect sense. We will have to come back and do another episode on this sometimes, but like, that makes perfect sense. When you think about how God created Adam and what he was supposed to do to transform and cult, cultivate, right? The word cultivate and culture come from the same roots to transform and cultivate the entire world. What was he supposed to do? Plant a garden, tame the animals, right? You know, bake babies. Like, it's, it's not, um, it's not. Rocket science, it's not that difficult. And again, we are all called to different elements of that. And God providentially places us in situations and in, in life, you know, life circumstances, we're not all gonna be able to fulfill every element of that. But that's where this, that's where this becomes sort of the domain of the church, right? The church does all of these things in the culture, and I don't mean the church as institution. I mean like the people who are the church. They do all of these things in very ordinary, normal ways, and that will, that will transform the culture. Um, right. You, you show me a. And this is not, you know, by God's common grace, there are lots of really nice people out there who are more or less honest and have integrity and work hard at their jobs. So it's not as that, that's a uniquely Christian thing. But you show me a, a, a person who is known to be a Christian and works hard as honest is straightforward, is kind, is charitable, is self-sacrificial in, in all arenas of their life. Um, people will notice that and they will see it as different and they will associate it with Christianity. They will as

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As Baptists we disagree on scriptural and covenantal grounds with the Presbyterian practice of infant baptism, but even more serious is the growing practice in some circles, such as the CREC and those who follow Doug Wilson, of paedocommunion or infant communion. While we believe infant baptism is incorrect, paedocommunion goes further and seriously undermines gospel theology. It is not only extra-biblical but also teaches against the doctrines of grace. In this episode, we attempt to walk through some of the issues with paedocommunion and how it goes against God's word, not only in the explicit commands regarding the practice of the Lord's Supper, but also the covenantal issues that frame salvation.Thumbnail image by Google Gemini AITimecodes00:00 Intro05:40 Logic of Paedocommunion10:21 Consequences for Children17:24 Control of Grace24:15 Crucifing the Flesh?29:10 Splitting the Signs33:13 Former Baptists?38:30 Salvation by Faith57:50 The Fruit of PaedocommunionProduction of Reformation Baptist Church of Youngsville, NCPermanent Hosts - Dan Horn, Charles Churchill and Joshua HornTechnical Director - Timothy KaiserTheme Music - Gabriel Hudelson

As Baptists we disagree on scriptural and covenantal grounds with the Presbyterian practice of infant baptism, but even more serious is the growing practice in some circles, such as the CREC and those who follow Doug Wilson, of paedocommunion or infant communion. While we believe infant baptism is incorrect, paedocommunion goes further and seriously undermines gospel theology. It is not only extra-biblical but also teaches against the doctrines of grace. In this episode, we attempt to walk through some of the issues with paedocommunion and how it goes against God's word, not only in the explicit commands regarding the practice of the Lord's Supper, but also the covenantal issues that frame salvation.Thumbnail image by Google Gemini AITimecodes00:00 Intro05:40 Logic of Paedocommunion10:21 Consequences for Children17:24 Control of Grace24:15 Crucifing the Flesh?29:10 Splitting the Signs33:13 Former Baptists?38:30 Salvation by Faith57:50 The Fruit of PaedocommunionProduction of Reformation Baptist Church of Youngsville, NCPermanent Hosts - Dan Horn, Charles Churchill and Joshua HornTechnical Director - Timothy KaiserTheme Music - Gabriel Hudelson

Join us as Pat Kahnke and Amy Hawk dive into the controversial teachings of Christian nationalist leader Doug Wilson (Moscow, Idaho), exploring his “church network” ties, his public interview with CNN, and what it really means for faith, culture & power.  In this episode we cover: Why we're paying closer attention to Doug Wilson — from fringe pastor to movement figure. His representation of the “good eggs” analogy and what it signals about his worldview. How his interview with CNN frames “clown world,” drag‑queen story hours, abortion, and America ruled by Christ. The deeper concerns around domination, obedience, legalism, and authoritarianism in the churches Wilson leads. A preview of our upcoming guest interview with Tia Levings (author of A Well‑Trained Life: My Journey Out of a Patriarchal Church) and what we can learn from her story. Why it matters: This conversation isn't just about one church or one pastor. It's about how religious authority, cultural power, and gender dynamics play out in real life. Link to the Report from Doug Wilson's organization about his handling of the difficult situation we talked about: https://heidelblog.net/crec-presiding-ministers-report-on-the-sitler-and-wright-sex-abuse-cases/    

This is our weekly LIVE Q&A. To send us a question, visit http://www.KeithFoskey.com Questions and TimestampsCan Christians Do Halloween? 15:57 
Why Church Discipline Feels Controversial 27:15
Youth Group “Merch” 31:47
Membership When You Work Nights/Weekends 42:15
Disagreement, Tone, and Calling to Teach 49:10
Sex During Menstruation 58:45
Shopping Ethically in a Fallen World 1:11:59
Anger with God (Theodicy) 1:22:38
Divine Election and Human Guilt (Theodicy) 1:22:38
Antichrist & Tribulation in Amillennialism 1:36:55
Dating Revelation & Amill/Postmill Frameworks 1:40:45
Kingdom Through Covenant Question 1:42:25
2 Thess 3 — Who Should Not Eat? 1:43:44
Sanctification vs. Glorification 1:48:30
Progressive Sanctification & “Quitting” a Particular Sin 1:52:26 
Leading Through Infertility 1:57:27
Common Grace and Annihiliationism 2:01:30
Justin Peters on Roman Catholicism 2:06:45
Thoughts on Michael Heiser's Theology 2:09:17
John's & Jesus' Baptisms—What's the Difference? 2:12:30
Federal Vision, Sabbath “Fulfillment,” and Doug Wilson 2:16:30
Were Ruckman's Teachings Heresy? 2:22:40
Ordination Amid Doctrinal Differences 2:26:30
Thoughts on Paul Washer 2:30:50Support the Show: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/Yourcalvinisthttps://www.TinyBibles.comYou can get the smallest Bible available on the market, which can be used for all kinds of purposes, by visiting TinyBibles.com and when you buy, use the coupon code KEITH for a discount.Love Coffee? Want the Best? Get a free bag of Squirrelly Joe's Coffee by clicking on this link: https://www.Squirrellyjoes.com/yourcalvinistor use coupon code "Keith" for 20% off anything in the storeDominion Wealth Strategies Visit them at https://www.dominionwealthstrategists.comhttp://www.Reformed.Moneyand let them know we sent you! https://www.HighCallingFitness.comHealth, training, and nutrition coaching all delivered to you online by confessionally reformed bodybuilders and strength athletes.Visit us at https://www.KeithFoskey.comIf you need a great website, check out https://www.fellowshipstudios.com

Pete Hegseth, Doug Wilson & the Rise of Religious Nationalism | Conversation with Amy Hawk Is America's defense leadership aligning with an authoritarian Christian nationalist project? Pat Kahnke and author Amy Hawk unpack Pete Hegseth's rhetoric (“FAFO,” “Department of War”), his Moscow-Idaho connections, and Doug Wilson's “All of Christ for All of Life.” Topics We Cover Hegseth's speech to generals: machismo, “war-fighters,” and the “enemy within” “Personnel is policy” and why it matters for civilian control of the military Doug Wilson's Moscow movement: institutions, slogans, and authoritarian theology “All of Christ for All of Life” and culture-war governance Household headship, voting debates, and the rhetoric around “heritage Americans” Why this is not fringe anymore—and why Christians and non-Christians should care

-Support the work of End Abortion Now! -Our newest sponsor is Dominion Wealth Strategists!-Check out Future of Christendom!-Get the NAD treatment Jeff is on, go to Ion Layer and put “IONAPOLOGIA” into the coupon code and get $100 off your first three months!-Check out Amtac Blades and use code APOLOGIA in the check out for 5% off! -You can get in touch with Heritage Defense and use coupon code “APOLOGIA” to get your first month free! -For some Presip Blend Coffee Check out our Store. -Check out the Ezra Institute

Larson and Rich kick off today's episode with an acknowledgment of Christopher Columbus's work and faith. Then they dive into the crisis of fatherlessness and the collapse of masculine responsibility in today's world. They argue the church must recover a joyful, unapologetically patriarchal vision of the household — where men lead generationally and discipleship begins at the family table. “Proof as Moral Obligation” by Doug Wilson "Not Stolen" by Jeff Fynn-Paul "The Book That Made Your World" by Vishal Mangalwadi NYT Interview w/ Doug Wilson

Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Send any notes or comments to bfwesten at gmail dot com and find much more, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! Today I begin by discussing Trump’s visit to Malaysia (today!) and how he is likely perceived by Malaysians (and Asians in general), plus a note about Doug Wilson’s Open Letter to Trump and its availability here in Malaysia (and everywhere). Check out (and share!) Doug's message to Trump at: TrumpRepent.my Next we look at this week’s Chinese cities to pray for (x.com/china.myadventures, PrayforChina.us), including a deeper look at an early missionary to Mongolia (James Gilmour: https://www.missionary.com/articles/who-was-james-gilmour). Pray for China places of the week https://chinacall.substack.com/p/pray-for-china-oct-27-nov-2-2025 Luke McKinney, the Podcast Ninja from the Comedian Next Door podcast, joins me for the second half of the podcast in a conversation we recorded earlier today (Noon on Saturday Malaysia time, Midnight Eastern): The Comedian Next Door Podcast: https://pubtv.flfnetwork.com/tabs/the-pub/podcasts/8295 We discussed our respective NBA teams (Pacers & Thunder) for the first 20 minutes or so, before moving on to a number of China related topics including Hong Kong freedom (or not), the restrictions on Chinese churches, and LeBron and the NBA’s nefarious relationship with China. Finally, the last few minutes of the podcast take us to the topic of deer hunting, but Luke’s only been out two more times than I have (and I haven’t been out at all, here in Malaysia). Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Send any notes or comments to bfwesten at gmail dot com and find much more, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! Today I begin by discussing Trump’s visit to Malaysia (today!) and how he is likely perceived by Malaysians (and Asians in general), plus a note about Doug Wilson’s Open Letter to Trump and its availability here in Malaysia (and everywhere). Check out (and share!) Doug's message to Trump at: TrumpRepent.my Next we look at this week’s Chinese cities to pray for (x.com/china.myadventures, PrayforChina.us), including a deeper look at an early missionary to Mongolia (James Gilmour: https://www.missionary.com/articles/who-was-james-gilmour). Pray for China places of the week https://chinacall.substack.com/p/pray-for-china-oct-27-nov-2-2025 Luke McKinney, the Podcast Ninja from the Comedian Next Door podcast, joins me for the second half of the podcast in a conversation we recorded earlier today (Noon on Saturday Malaysia time, Midnight Eastern): The Comedian Next Door Podcast: https://pubtv.flfnetwork.com/tabs/the-pub/podcasts/8295 We discussed our respective NBA teams (Pacers & Thunder) for the first 20 minutes or so, before moving on to a number of China related topics including Hong Kong freedom (or not), the restrictions on Chinese churches, and LeBron and the NBA’s nefarious relationship with China. Finally, the last few minutes of the podcast take us to the topic of deer hunting, but Luke’s only been out two more times than I have (and I haven’t been out at all, here in Malaysia). Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

On today's Flyover Conservatives Show, we sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson to confront America's moral collapse and what God requires for national repentance. He explains why abortion, same-sex marriage, and the rise of the administrative state are provoking divine judgment—and how the church has become complicit. Doug reveals the only path left for America to turn away from destruction and return to biblical order.On today's Flyover Conservatives Show, we sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson to confront America's moral collapse and what God requires for national repentance. He explains why abortion, same-sex marriage, and the rise of the administrative state are provoking divine judgment—and how the church has become complicit. Doug reveals the only path left for America to turn away from destruction and return to biblical order.TO WATCH ALL FLYOVER CONTENT: www.theflyoverapp.com TO WATCH ALL FLYOVER CONTENT: www.theflyoverapp.com Follow and Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFlyoverConservativesShow Follow and Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFlyoverConservativesShow To Schedule A Time To Talk To Dr. Dr. Kirk Elliott Go To To Schedule A Time To Talk To Dr. Dr. Kirk Elliott Go To ▶ https://flyovergold.com▶ https://flyovergold.comOr Call 720-605-3900 Or Call 720-605-3900 ► Receive your FREE 52 Date Night Ideas Playbook to make date night more exciting, go to www.prosperousmarriage.com► Receive your FREE 52 Date Night Ideas Playbook to make date night more exciting, go to www.prosperousmarriage.comPastor Doug WilsonPastor Doug WilsonWEBSITE: www.cannonpress.com WEBSITE: www.cannonpress.comwww.cannonpress.com WEBSITE: https://dougwils.com/ WEBSITE: https://dougwils.com/https://dougwils.Send us a message... we can't reply, but we read them all!Support the show► ReAwaken America- text the word FLYOVER to 918-851-0102 (Message and data rates may apply. Terms/privacy: 40509-info.com) ► Kirk Elliott PHD - http://FlyoverGold.com ► My Pillow - https://MyPillow.com/Flyover ► ALL LINKS: https://sociatap.com/FlyoverConservatives

Send us a text As we start our episode coverage of the Fight Laugh Feast "School Wars" Conference, we had to start big. Greg sat down with Doug Wilson and discussed the top 5 excuses Greg has gotten from well meaning christians on why they DO NOT homeschool their children. Have you heard these before? Are the valid reasons or are they just excuses? Listen in to hear Doug respond to each one! Enjoy! Click HERE for your free consultation with Dominion Wealth Strategists Click HERE for your complete seating and furnishing needs from K&K Furnishings Facebook: Dead Men Walking PodcastYoutube: Dead Men Walking PodcastInstagram: @DeadMenWalkingPodcastTwitter X: @RealDMWPodcastExclusive Content: PubTV AppSupport the show Get your free consultation with Dominion Wealth Strategists today! The only distinctly reformed wealth company! CLICK HERE! 1689 Cigars: The absolute best cigars on earth! Check out out the Dead Men Walking snarky merch HERE! Build something for God's glory through Covenant Real Estate! Greg Moore Jr. can help you buy, sell, and invest! Call him at (734) 731-GREG or visit www.covenant.realestate

Send us a textAs we start our episode coverage of the Fight Laugh Feast "School Wars" Conference, we had to start big. Greg sat down with Doug Wilson and discussed the top 5 excuses Greg has gotten from well meaning christians on why they DO NOT homeschool their children. Have you heard these before? Are the valid reasons or are they just excuses? Listen in to hear Doug respond to each one! Enjoy!  Click HERE for your free consultation with Dominion Wealth Strategists Click HERE for your complete seating and furnishing needs from K&K Furnishings Facebook: Dead Men Walking PodcastYoutube: Dead Men Walking PodcastInstagram: @DeadMenWalkingPodcastTwitter X: @RealDMWPodcastExclusive Content: PubTV App

Doug Wilson sits down for a brief chat with us about his recent letter to the president, among other things. This was during the '25 Fight Laugh Feast Conference. We pray that Grounded will become a useful and regular part of your Christian learning and growth! - the Grounded team

Send us a text As we start our episode coverage of the Fight Laugh Feast "School Wars" Conference, we had to start big. Greg sat down with Doug Wilson and discussed the top 5 excuses Greg has gotten from well meaning christians on why they DO NOT homeschool their children. Have you heard these before? Are the valid reasons or are they just excuses? Listen in to hear Doug respond to each one! Enjoy! Click HERE for your free consultation with Dominion Wealth Strategists Click HERE for your complete seating and furnishing needs from K&K Furnishings Facebook: Dead Men Walking PodcastYoutube: Dead Men Walking PodcastInstagram: @DeadMenWalkingPodcastTwitter X: @RealDMWPodcastExclusive Content: PubTV AppSupport the show Get your free consultation with Dominion Wealth Strategists today! The only distinctly reformed wealth company! CLICK HERE! 1689 Cigars: The absolute best cigars on earth! Check out out the Dead Men Walking snarky merch HERE! Build something for God's glory through Covenant Real Estate! Greg Moore Jr. can help you buy, sell, and invest! Call him at (734) 731-GREG or visit www.covenant.realestate

With the China spying case continuing to generate headlines, mystery and yet more uncertainty surrounding the true reason for the DPP's decision to drop charges against Chris Cash and Chris Berry under the Official Secrets Act 1911, and Double Jeopardy having been sent an anonymously leaked copy of his expert witness statement, Ken Macdonald KC and Tim Owen KC secure an exclusive interview with Professor Kerry Brown, the former UK diplomat, academic and China expert who was due to be a defence witness on behalf of Chris Berry had the case gone to trial. Ken and Tim discuss with Prof Brown a number of the issues he was due to cover at the trial – the recent history of UK/China relations; the networks in Britain engaged with China; the structure of decision-making in China; whether Chris Berry could conceivably have met the second most powerful man in China, Cai Qi, as the Security Services had “assessed”, in the course of his alleged spying activities; analysis of the likely security and intelligence value of the information passed between Cash, Berry and the alleged Chinese State Security agent “Alex”; and, finally, the concept of China as an “enemy” State. Bearing in mind the force, clarity and weight which was bound to be attached to Prof Brown's defence report, Ken and Tim suggest that the timing of the service of his report and the DPP's decision to drop the case appears to be more than a coincidence.  Was service of the Brown report on 29th August 2025 the trigger for the meeting convened on 1st September (Chaired by National Security Adviser Jonathan Powell and attended by 20 senior mandarins and spy chiefs as well as Doug Wilson, director-general of the attorney general's office) where the general theme was how the UK's relationship with China was going to be damaged by the case and where the main “action point”, according to Caroline Wheeler's well briefed article in the Times, was for the AG's office to relay these concerns to the DPP?  The duo conclude by agreeing that unless and until the written advice given to the DPP by prosecuting counsel, Tom Little KC, as to why the case was dropped is published following a waiver of privilege by the Attorney General, the mystery surrounding this case will continue. ----------- Covering the critical intersections of politics and law in the UK with expert commentary on high-profile legal cases, political controversies, prisons and sentencing, human rights law, current political events and the shifting landscape of justice and democracy. With in-depth discussions and influential guests, Double Jeopardy is the podcast that uncovers the forces shaping Britain's legal and political future.   Double Jeopardy is presented by Ken Macdonald KC, former Director of Public Prosecutions, and Tim Owen KC, as they break down the legal and political issues in Britain. From high-profile legal cases to the evolving state of British democracy, Double Jeopardy offers expert legal commentary on the most pressing topics in UK law, politics, and human rights.   Ken Macdonald KC served as Director of Public Prosecutions from 2003-2008, shaping modern prosecutorial policy and advocating for the rule of law. He is a former Warden of Wadham College, Oxford, a crossbench member of the House of Lords, and a leading writer, commentator and broadcaster on politics and the rule of law.   Tim Owen KC has been involved in many of the most significant public, criminal and human rights law cases over the past four decades.  Both bring unparalleled experience from the frontline of Britain's legal and political landscape.   If you like The Rest Is Politics, Talking Politics, Law Pod UK and Today in Focus, you'll love Double Jeopardy.

It has been announced that Gary and Doug Wilson will discuss eschatology in a three-hour event in Moscow, Idaho in early November. Gary discusses this opportunity as well as some of the critics voicing their opposition to it due to "platforming heresy." It is a tired play that has been done before.

On last week’s podcast I sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho. Today I’ve got another special guest for the first half of the podcast, my lovely daughter Abby who just had a birthday this week (hint: she’s old enough to drive but yet an “adult”). Here’s how you can follow her and her artwork: https://www.instagram.com/abriana.isabel_art/ And here’s a book that she illustrated: https://www.amazon.com/Snowy-Love-Story-Timothy-Yeahquo/dp/B0DJBYNP14/ Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where (among other things) I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Feel free to send any notes or comments to bfwesten at gmail dot com and find much more, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! After Abby and I talk all about our adventures in Australia and awful boat rides in Malaysia, we discuss one article that brings up a point in which I disagree slightly with Doug Wilson… China’s Robotics Advances Have Western Executives Terrified https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/12/why-western-executives-visit-china-coming-back-terrified/ In the second half of the podcast, I work through the following stories (especially the first): China Detains Influential House Church Pastor https://www.christianitytoday.com/2025/10/ezra-jin-zion-house-church-china-detain/ Pastors and Staff from Underground Church Arrested in China https://www.npr.org/2025/10/12/nx-s1-5571936/zion-church-ezra-jin-arrest-china-christian China’s nationwide SIM farm network directly threatens American critical infrastructure https://www.theblaze.com/news/exclusive-china-behind-massive-nationwide-sim-farm-network-that-directly-threatens-american-critical-infrastructure Chinese SIM farms are radicalizing Americans and destabilizing society, intel experts say https://www.theblaze.com/news/chinese-sim-farms-are-radicalizing-americans-and-destabilizing-society-intel-experts-say Pray for China places of the week (Follow @chinaadventures for daily updates) https://chinacall.substack.com/p/pray-for-china-oct-20-26-2025 Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

On last week’s podcast I sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho. Today I’ve got another special guest for the first half of the podcast, my lovely daughter Abby who just had a birthday this week (hint: she’s old enough to drive but yet an “adult”). Here’s how you can follow her and her artwork: https://www.instagram.com/abriana.isabel_art/ And here’s a book that she illustrated: https://www.amazon.com/Snowy-Love-Story-Timothy-Yeahquo/dp/B0DJBYNP14/ Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where (among other things) I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Feel free to send any notes or comments to bfwesten at gmail dot com and find much more, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! After Abby and I talk all about our adventures in Australia and awful boat rides in Malaysia, we discuss one article that brings up a point in which I disagree slightly with Doug Wilson… China’s Robotics Advances Have Western Executives Terrified https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/12/why-western-executives-visit-china-coming-back-terrified/ In the second half of the podcast, I work through the following stories (especially the first): China Detains Influential House Church Pastor https://www.christianitytoday.com/2025/10/ezra-jin-zion-house-church-china-detain/ Pastors and Staff from Underground Church Arrested in China https://www.npr.org/2025/10/12/nx-s1-5571936/zion-church-ezra-jin-arrest-china-christian China’s nationwide SIM farm network directly threatens American critical infrastructure https://www.theblaze.com/news/exclusive-china-behind-massive-nationwide-sim-farm-network-that-directly-threatens-american-critical-infrastructure Chinese SIM farms are radicalizing Americans and destabilizing society, intel experts say https://www.theblaze.com/news/chinese-sim-farms-are-radicalizing-americans-and-destabilizing-society-intel-experts-say Pray for China places of the week (Follow @chinaadventures for daily updates) https://chinacall.substack.com/p/pray-for-china-oct-20-26-2025 Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

In this episode, Nathan and Cameron dive deep into the rising influence of Doug Wilson and the growing interest in Christian nationalism among evangelicals. Sparked by Wilson's recent high-profile interview with Ross Douthat on The Interesting Times podcast and growing media coverage—including CNN—this conversation critically examines Wilson's theological vision, his version of Christendom 2.0, and the historical Reformed roots of his political theology. With thoughtful nuance, Nathan and Cameron explore the appeal of Wilson's message to disillusioned Christian men, the implications of his post-secular, patriarchal worldview, and the overlap and tension between theocracy, Calvinism, and modern conservative movements. This episode is essential for Christians seeking serious, biblically grounded analysis of current theological trends shaping the church and society today.DONATE LINK: https://toltogether.com/donate BOOK A SPEAKER: https://toltogether.com/book-a-speakerJOIN TOL CONNECT: https://toltogether.com/tol-connect TOL Connect is an online forum where TOL listeners can continue the conversation begun on the podcast.

San Jose Sharks legend Dan Boyle, insider Sheng Peng, prospects guru Keegan McNally, and Sharks Ice beer league champ Zubair Jeewanjee react to opening night's explosive Hasso Plattner interview! We share our reaction to the San Jose Sharks' owner's thoughts about Erik Karlsson, Doug Wilson, Doug Wilson Jr., and more! We also chat about the rough start to the Sharks' season…what are our biggest worries so far? What do we think about Sam Dickinson and Michael Misa's NHL debuts? We also discuss the San Jose Sharks' unpopular new goal song and claiming Vincent Iorio off waivers. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week we're looking at Trumponomics, how Nazified the GOP and country at large has become, and Doug Wilson's vision for a theocratic dictatorship Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/trillbillyworkersparty

The other day I sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho to have a conversation on all things China. I was excited to get his perspective, since he has personally lived through much of China’s modern communist history. I was not disappointed. In our 30+ minute conversation, we touched on many topics including the Great Leap Forward, Mao’s Great Famine, Doug’s Submarine Adventures with a Taiwanese crew, the China Legacies of Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter, the Tiananmen Square massacre (and revival), China’s modern-day revival, C.S. Lewis’s 1946 China optimism vs. Doug’s (short-term) pessimism, Hebrews 13:3 and how to pray for the persecuted, and PrayforChina.us’s helpful strategy! Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Feel free to send any notes or comments via email @ bfwesten at gmail dot com Find much more about our work in Asia, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! Frank Dikotter (Dutch, not German) on China https://www.frankdikotter.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Maos-Great-Famine-Devastating-Catastrophe/dp/1408886367 Jimmy Carter’s Complicated China Legacy https://www.crosspoliticnews.com/news/jimmy-carters-complicated-china-legacy The C.S. Lewis China Letters https://chinacall.substack.com/p/the-cs-lewis-china-letters C.S. Lewis, Burnt Marshwiggle, and the Brainwashing of Richard Wurmbrand https://chinacall.substack.com/p/cs-lewis-burnt-marshwiggle-and-the The NBA, LeBron James, and China https://www.crosspoliticnews.com/news/nba-back-in-bed-with-china Pray for China places of the week (Follow @chinaadventures for daily updates) https://open.substack.com/pub/chinacall/p/pray-for-china-oct-13-19-2025 Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

The other day I sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho to have a conversation on all things China. I was excited to get his perspective, since he has personally lived through much of China’s modern communist history. I was not disappointed. In our 30+ minute conversation, we touched on many topics including the Great Leap Forward, Mao’s Great Famine, Doug’s Submarine Adventures with a Taiwanese crew, the China Legacies of Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter, the Tiananmen Square massacre (and revival), China’s modern-day revival, C.S. Lewis’s 1946 China optimism vs. Doug’s (short-term) pessimism, Hebrews 13:3 and how to pray for the persecuted, and PrayforChina.us’s helpful strategy! Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Feel free to send any notes or comments via email @ bfwesten at gmail dot com Find much more about our work in Asia, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! Frank Dikotter (Dutch, not German) on China https://www.frankdikotter.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Maos-Great-Famine-Devastating-Catastrophe/dp/1408886367 Jimmy Carter’s Complicated China Legacy https://www.crosspoliticnews.com/news/jimmy-carters-complicated-china-legacy The C.S. Lewis China Letters https://chinacall.substack.com/p/the-cs-lewis-china-letters C.S. Lewis, Burnt Marshwiggle, and the Brainwashing of Richard Wurmbrand https://chinacall.substack.com/p/cs-lewis-burnt-marshwiggle-and-the The NBA, LeBron James, and China https://www.crosspoliticnews.com/news/nba-back-in-bed-with-china Pray for China places of the week (Follow @chinaadventures for daily updates) https://open.substack.com/pub/chinacall/p/pray-for-china-oct-13-19-2025 Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

​ @InterestingTimesNYT  Christian Nationalism vs Clown World | Interesting Times with Ross Douthat https://youtu.be/WAYWbbSeIhE?si=NUo2fe_N26AZTL3f   @JonathanPageau  Charlie Kirk's Assassination: We have gone beyond the pale https://youtu.be/NrDbHQurRpg?si=GVPPzF_ztRUROu-D   @thegeorgebuchananforum6899  George Harrell: Re-enchanting History in an Age of Woke Ideologies and Christian Nationalisms https://youtu.be/eKe1Fs7R6uc?si=r5VLAaw99BrfDb5G  The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile of Pius IX and the Emergence of Modern Europe https://amzn.to/46Y6Ihw  https://www.southeastuary.com/ https://www.livingstonescrc.com/give Paul Vander Klay clips channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX0jIcadtoxELSwehCh5QTg https://www.meetup.com/sacramento-estuary/ My Substack https://paulvanderklay.substack.com/ Bridges of meaning https://discord.gg/3KSvYAvN Estuary Hub Link https://www.estuaryhub.com/ There is a video version of this podcast on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/paulvanderklay To listen to this on ITunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/paul-vanderklays-podcast/id1394314333  If you need the RSS feed for your podcast player https://paulvanderklay.podbean.com/feed/  All Amazon links here are part of the Amazon Affiliate Program. Amazon pays me a small commission at no additional cost to you if you buy through one of the product links here. This is is one (free to you) way to support my videos.  https://paypal.me/paulvanderklay Blockchain backup on Lbry https://odysee.com/@paulvanderklay https://www.patreon.com/paulvanderklay Paul's Church Content at Living Stones Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh7bdktIALZ9Nq41oVCvW-A To support Paul's work by supporting his church give here. https://tithe.ly/give?c=2160640 https://www.livingstonescrc.com/give  

In this vital episode of Worldview Legacy Today, Joel Settecase takes listeners on a deep dive into one of today's most controversial and misunderstood topics: Christian Nationalism.

Evangelical pastor and self-proclaimed Christian nationalist Doug Wilson has been preaching for decades that America needs to reclaim its Puritan past. But in 2025, he believes he's “significantly” more influential. Does that mean America is closer to Wilson's goal of theocracy? In this episode, nothing is off limits — even Ross's own salvation.01:36 - Doug Wilson's vision for a Christian nation08:37 - Wilson's ideal theocratic republic19:12 - Theocracy and religious diversity30:50 - Do women have rights in this new republic?36:59 - Christendom and slavery46:50 - How far does Wilson's influence go in a “clown world”?59:54 - Calvinism activism and quietism(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Everything sort of hooked up nicely today on the show, from talking about a Baptist converting to Anglicanism, into providing a response to a Roman Catholic on what true peace is (and how we obtain it) to my responding to Doug Wilson's comments to Ross Douthat on what it means to be a Christian and whether Roman Catholicism presents, or obscures, that reality.

What does it take to build an international type foundry from scratch — and keep it thriving for nearly two decades? In this episode, host Doug Wilson talks with Veronika Burian, co-founder of the independent type foundry TypeTogether. From her background in industrial design to discovering a love for typography while working in Milan, Veronika shares how global experiences shaped her perspective and inspired her to build a remote global team.  You'll hear about the delicate craft of designing multi-script typefaces that respect multiple cultures, honest reflections on growing a collaborative team across continents, and why mentoring new voices in type design feels like one of Veronika's most important missions. To see work from Veronika and TypeTogether, head to type-together.com or check out their typefaces on MyFonts.   You can find blog posts for this and all our past episodes at monotype.com/podcast

Dana, Lee, and Steve answer a multi-faceted listener question about the teachings and actions of Doug Wilson. Is he dangerous? Is he a hero? Is he even reformed? Well, I guess you'll just have to listen. *********************************************************************Website: rbcbellefontaine.comIntro Music: “Thunder” by Telecasted

Journalist Sarah Stankorb comes on the show to talk about her book, Disobedient Women, and the deep dive she did on why a series of evangelical women in America began to leave their communities as the internet came into prominence. They discuss patriarchal teachings within cultures like the Quiverfull movement, including stories like Vyckie Garrison’s, who was pressured into having repeated pregnancies that defied her doctors and put her life at risk.They also dive into figures like Bill Gothard, who built the IBLP curricula and created a system of mini-cults across the country, the many stories of sexual abuse that were covered up by various religious organizations, and how online communities helped women share stories, band together, and begin to speak out. Plus: how figures like Doug Wilson helped push Christian nationalism from the fringes into the political mainstream. SOURCES: Disobedient Women Elle Vice Vice Washtington Post Cosmopolitan Marie ClaireSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this week's main episode, Keith and Matthew chat with Brittany Page and Mattie Mae Motl about the dangerous theology of Doug Wilson and how theology such as his plays into the violence that we see today, especially when it comes to events like the one we saw in Utah.If you want to call in to the Bonus Show, leave a voicemail at (530) 332-8020. We'll get to your calls on next Friday's Bonus Show. Or, you can email Matthew at matthew@quoir.com.Join The Quollective today! Use code "heretic" to save 10% off a yearly subscription.Pick up Keith and Matt's book, Reading Romans Right, today, as well as The UnChristian Truth About White Christian Nationalism.Please consider signing up to financially support the Network: QuoirCast on PatreonIf you want to be a guest on the show, email keith@quoir.com.LINKSQuoirCast on PatreonQuoirCast on Patheos Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comWhat explains the persistence and appeal of Christian patriarchy in contemporary America? In this episode, journalist and author Sarah Stankorb (Disobedient Women) examines the theological and institutional architecture surrounding **Doug Wilson, Christ Church, Canon Press, and the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC)*. Drawing on years of investigative reporting, Stankorb situates Moscow, Idaho, as both a local case study and a national model for the diffusion of patriarchal theology through publishing, education, and digital media.The conversation explores how discourses of submission and hierarchy provide not only a template for family and congregational life but also a framework for civic and political engagement. We analyze the implications of head-of-household voting, institutional cover-ups of abuse, and the theological rationales that normalize gendered power disparities. Stankorb highlights survivor narratives as essential sources of data, underscoring how authority structures can perpetuate cycles of harm under the guise of religious fidelity.By situating Wilson's project within broader debates over Christian nationalism, religious liberty, and political theology, this episode raises critical questions about the entanglement of faith and authoritarianism in the American public square.Disobedient Women:How a Small Group of Faithful Women Exposed Abuse, Brought Down Powerful Pastors, and Ignited an Evangelical Reckoninghttps://bookshop.org/a/112456/9781546003816Articles by Sarah:https://www.vice.com/en/article/inside-the-church-that-preaches-wives-need-to-be-led-with-a-firm-hand/https://www.elle.com/life-love/opinions-features/a64637668/tradwives-escaping-patriarchy-social-media-interview-2025/ Support the show

PART ONE (S17Ep10) Author Marissa Burt focuses on how distorted theology has affected the raising of children over the past decades. Her book is titled, "The Myth of 'Good Christian Parenting' - How false promises betrayed a generation of Evangelical families." She and her co-author did extensive surveys and researched more than 100 publications as they thought again about parenting advice from Bill Gothard to  Douglas Wilson and more. Their book comes out October 14, 2025.Here are relevant links:The Book of Eden, Genesis 2-3 by Bruce C. E.Fleming https://a.co/d/e5QBJvHThe Myth of "Good Christian Parenting" by Marissa Burt and Kelsey McGinnis https://a.co/d/eTx9YgoOther links:Instagram: @mburtwrites  |  @kelseykmcginnisFacebook: @mburtwrites  |  @kelsey.kramermcginnisTikTok: @mburtwrites  |  @kelseykmcgYouTube: @mburtwrites Link to pre-order bonusesLink to download of the introduction and first chapter Find the book on AmazonOrder from Baker for guaranteed release day deliveryMarissa Franks Burt (MA in Theological Studies, Columbia International University) is a novelist, editor, teacher, and cohost of the At Home with the Lectionary and In the Church Library podcasts. She lives in a small town in Washington's Snoqualmie Valley with her husband, six children, and heaps of books.Kelsey Kramer McGinnis (PhD, University of Iowa) is a musicologist, educator, and correspondent for Christianity Today, writing on worship practices and Christian subculture. She is an adjunct professor at Grand View University in Des Moines and previously worked at the University of Iowa Center for Human Rights. The Tru316 Foundation (www.Tru316.com) is the home of The Eden Podcast with Bruce C. E. Fleming where we “true” the verse of Genesis 3:16. The Tru316 Message is that “God didn't curse Eve (or Adam) or limit woman in any way.” Once Genesis 3:16 is made clear the other passages on women and men become clear too. You are encouraged to access the episodes of Seasons 1-11 of The Eden Podcast for teaching on the seven key passages on women and men. Are you a reader? We invite you to get from Amazon the four books by Bruce C. E. Fleming in The Eden Book Series (Tru316.com/trubooks). Would you like to support the work of the Tru316 Foundation? You can become a Tru Partner here: www.Tru316.com/partner

On today's program, Warren Smith has one of his periodic “lightning round” talks with Michael Reneau of The Dispatch. This time, they dig into celebrity Christians, including Jen Hatmaker, Doug Wilson, Chip and Joanna Gaines, and others. They also discuss how Tim Keller is sort of an antidote to that, the “anti-celebrity celebrity. They also discuss recent articles at The Dispatch regarding artificial intelligence, and a whole lot more.   We mention a couple of articles in the program. Here are links: Patrick McNamara on AI Bonnie Kristian's article on Private Religion  Joseph Polidoro's article on Creative Destruction Before joining The Dispatch, Michael Reneau was the editor of WORLD Magazine. He also served as editor of the award-winning paper The Greenville Sun, based in Greenville, Tennessee. He is married and he and his wife have four children. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. Until next time, may God bless you.

In this episode, Sharona and Boz sit down with Jen Smielewski, a math teacher at Avondale High School. Jen works with Doug Wilson, the principal at Avondale High School who was a guest on episode 101 about visionary leadership. In this episode, Jen shares the "experience first, formalize later" methodology that the entire math department has adopted through the change to standards-based grading and under Doug's leadership. From the adoption of Building Thinking Classrooms to the methods of daily assessment of common schoolwide standards, Jen provides detailed examples of the changes at Avondale and how they have unlocked success in her classroom. Join us for this amazing conversation!LinksPlease note - any books linked here are likely Amazon Associates links. Clicking on them and purchasing through them helps support the show. Thanks for your support!Episode 101 – Visionary Leadership: Culture Change through Asking Questions – A 10-Year Journey to Building-Wide Grading Reform (with Doug Wilson)Building Thinking Classrooms In Mathematics, by Peter LiljedahlFAME: Formative Assessment for Michigan EducatorsA Beginner's Guide to Standards Based Grading, by Kate OwensResourcesThe Center for Grading Reform - seeking to advance education in the United States by supporting effective grading reform at all levels through conferences, educational workshops, professional development, research and scholarship, influencing public policy, and community building.The Grading Conference - an annual, online conference exploring Alternative Grading in Higher Education & K-12.Some great resources to educate yourself about Alternative Grading:The Grading for Growth BlogThe Grading ConferenceThe Intentional Academia BlogRecommended Books on Alternative Grading:Grading for Growth, by Robert Talbert and David ClarkSpecifications Grading, by Linda Nilsen

In this episode of At the Bus Stop, we sit down with David and Margaret Bronson to uncover the dangers of Theonomy, Christian Reconstructionism, and the influence of leaders like Doug Wilson. The Bronsons share their personal experiences, explain how these teachings shape churches and politics, and discuss the lasting impact on survivors. They also highlight their work with Deconstruction Doulas and their efforts to build a Survivor Care Network that provides safety, healing, and hope for those leaving high-control religious environments. Their nonprofit is in the process of receiving 501(c)(3) status. Learn more and support their work at their GoFundMe page.Follow on IG @deconstructiondoulasAlexander H. Stephens Corner Stone SpeechSupport the show

Tim, Phil, & Ian are joined by Doug Wilson to discuss Trump to deploy National Guard troops to Portland, Oregon, Speaker Mike Johnson revealing Trump was an FBI informant against Epstein, ICE raiding a Hyundai factory, and Tuberculosis cases rising in America.   Hosts:  Tim @Timcast (everywhere) Phil @PhilThatRemains (X) Ian @IanCrossland (everywhere) Serge @SergeDotCom (everywhere) Guest: Douglas Wilson 

With Steve and John away overseas, Lucretia takes full control of the podcast this week, welcoming back a much more sober special guest, Prof. Vincent Munoz of Notre Dame University, this semester visiting at the University of Texas at Austin. With Sen. Tim Kaine making an utter jackass of himself by implying that the Lockean philosophy of Thomas Jefferson and the American Founders is "what the mullahs in Iran believe," and then our friends Larry Arnn of Hillsdale College and noted evangelical thought leader Doug Wilson getting into a tussle about exactly how Christian principles should be manifest in the American political order, it is obviously high time finally to get into the subject that baffles John Yoo (we know—not that hard to do): the "theological-political problem."Don't be put off by that clunky-sounding phrase. It really is the key to everything, and few people are more versed and sound on the subject than Phil, who has dropped by the podcast a couple times before, and somehow is till willing to come back for more!

Gary interviews Doug Wilson about the how and why of worldview Christianity. Doug and his family have been in Moscow, Idaho since the late 1960s. The applied Christianity that Doug saw and learned from his father continues to this day. The influence he and others are having even gained the attention of CNN. Listen to this fascinating interview about how a long-term vision can bring change.  Get Jim Wilson's book, Principles of War, here: https://store.americanvision.org/products/principles-of-war

Gavin Ortlund and Joe Rigney discuss whether Christians should use profanity.To dig deeper into these issues, see the prior correspondence between Denny Burk and Doug Wilson:https://www.dennyburk.com/the-serrate...https://dougwils.com/books-and-cultur...Truth Unites (https://truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites, Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.SUPPORT:Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunitesFOLLOW:Website: https://truthunites.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/X: https://x.com/gavinortlundFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost. Key Takeaways Vocation is threefold: A proper understanding of Christian vocation includes responsibilities to our work, our families, and our church—not just our careers. Lord's Day conflicts: Professions that regularly prevent church attendance and Lord's Day observance may be inappropriate for Christians, regardless of their potential for influence or impact. Family obligations: Scripture teaches that Christians who neglect family responsibilities are "worse than unbelievers" (1 Tim. 5:8), suggesting that careers demanding excessive time away from family may be problematic. Christian influence vs. gospel proclamation: We must distinguish between transforming culture through worldly influence versus the actual proclamation of the gospel, which can happen at any level of employment. Sacrifice is expected: Following Christ often requires sacrificing career advancement, prestige, or financial gain to fulfill our primary callings. Priority check: When considering job opportunities, Christians should evaluate church options in a new location with the same care they give to schools, housing, and other community factors. God calls us to faithfulness: Our primary calling is to faithfulness in our responsibilities, not necessarily to positions of maximum influence or cultural power. Balancing the Threefold Calling The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically. The Question of Christian Influence A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim. Quotes "Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal "I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb "I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal Practical Applications The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities: Will this job regularly prevent Lord's Day worship? Does it require sacrificing time with family beyond what's reasonable? Could you negotiate Sabbath observance with potential employers? When relocating, evaluate church options with the same care given to schools and housing Consider whether a lower-paying job that allows faithfulness in all areas might be better than a higher-paying one that doesn't Full Transcript [00:00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey [00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It [00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it. [00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode. [00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works. [00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it. [00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of? [00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it. [00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming. [00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before. [00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this. [00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour. [00:02:41] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it. [00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something? [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay. [00:03:16] Exploring AI in Learning [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform. [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it. [00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format. [00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content. [00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in. [00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way. [00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument. [00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis. [00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes. [00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter. [00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal. [00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about. [00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise. [00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know. [00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right? [00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out. [00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful. [00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures. [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God. [00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority. [00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content. [00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize. [00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it. [00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked. [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it. [00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:11:16] Nasal Spray Affirmation [00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything. [00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody. [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life. [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that. [00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So [00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose. [00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out. [00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year. [00:14:32] Hummingbird Moth Encounter [00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth. [00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face. [00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine. [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the [00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth. [00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking. [00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large. [00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they. [00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do. [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right. [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But [00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name. [00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse. [00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens. [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring. [00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet. [00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's, [00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it. [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything. [00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages. [00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What, [00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review. [00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood. [00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is. [00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. [00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those. [00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well. [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one. [00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here. [00:20:27] Christian Vocation and Work [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians. [00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and. [00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things. [00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter? [00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer. [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those. [00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be. [00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right? [00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis. [00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week. [00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that. [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession. [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual. [00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job. [00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test. [00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively. [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels. [00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose. [00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time. [00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation. [00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right. [00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should. [00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold? [00:28:13] Exploring the Theology of Work and the Lord's Day [00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities. [00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um. [00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely. [00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day. [00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think. [00:29:24] Works of Necessity and Charity on the Lord's Day [00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls. [00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you. [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right? [00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity. [00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services. [00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well. [00:31:48] Balancing Professional Responsibilities and Christian Obligations [00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c. [00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying. [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy. [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff. [00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms. [00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day. [00:33:20] Personal Experiences and Real-World Applications [00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO. [00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday. [00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day? [00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that. [00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill? [00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask. [00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church. [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job. [00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that. [00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better? [00:36:01] The Role of Christians in Leadership Positions [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO? [00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have. [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness. [00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how. [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society. [00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow. [00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling. [00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory. [00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this. [00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society. [00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians. [00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that. [00:39:43] Sacrifices and Priorities in Christian Vocation [00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same. [00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say. [00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel. [00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good. [00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that. [00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right? [00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not. [00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain. [00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level. [00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their. [00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to. [00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family. [00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level. [00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time. [00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church. [00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential. [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive. [00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better. [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job. [00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job. [00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week. [00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down. [00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way. [00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak. [00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake. [00:47:37] Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions [00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got, [00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian. [00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing. [00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that

In this week's episode, protesters get a rise out of Dan Patrick by not letting him get a rise out of them, Kristi Noem remains a puppy killer, and we'll find a fresh grave in need of some aggressive urine therapy. --- To make a per episode donation at Patreon.com, click here: http://www.patreon.com/ScathingAtheist To buy our book, click here: https://www.amazon.com/Outbreak-Crisis-Religion-Ruined-Pandemic/dp/B08L2HSVS8/ If you see a news story you think we might be interested in, you can send it here: scathingnews@gmail.com To check out our sister show, The Skepticrat, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/the-skepticrat To check out our sister show's hot friend, God Awful Movies, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/god-awful-movies To check out our half-sister show, Citation Needed, click here: http://citationpod.com/ To check out our sister show's sister show, D and D minus, click here: https://danddminus.libsyn.com/ Report instances of harassment or abuse connected to this show to the Creator Accountability Network here: https://creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org/ --- Live Events: Come see a live God Awful Movies record in New Orleans on September 27th! Come see Noah read tarot in Orlando on September 21st! --- Headlines: Texas Lt. Governor threatens to expel Texans who don't stand for prayer: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-demands The Jehovah's Witnesses now say college is OK... after decades of saying the opposite: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-jehovahs-witnesses-now-say-college Ryan Walters says Oklahoma will test some incoming teachers with 'America-first' exam: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2025/08/19/oklahoma-teachers-california-new-york-test/ Federal judge strikes down MN ban on state funding for schools with faith statements: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/federal-judge-strikes-down-minnesotas Christian pastors in Kentucky urge theft of LGBTQ books from Shelbyville public library: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/christian-pastors-in-kentucky-urge DHS is using the Bible to promote ICE, claiming ‘righteous' fight against immigrants: https://religionnews.com/2025/08/19/homeland-security-quotes-bible-in-messaging-on-immigration-enforcement/ https://x.com/DHSgov/status/1949913619644493930 --- This Week in Misogyny: Pete Hegseth attends Doug Wilson's church: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/defense-secretary-praises-pastor Christian University chooses powerful men over abused women and girls again: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/faith-power-and-abuse-the-scandal Women groomed by priest outs him in a delightful way: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/hes-a-priest-she-was-a-17-year-old

Doug Wilson recently made headlines as the man whose church members want to take away women's right to vote, Pete Hegseth goes to his church. But what we know from the brief interview going viral is just the tip of the iceberg. Margaret of Deconstruction Doulas explains why.

Was there prostitution in the temple? For a long time, there have been claims that the holy temples of ancient Judea included some form of sacred sex work. Where did this idea come from? Is it valid? And what does this conversation have to do with hate pastor and frequently wrong guy Doug Wilson? Then, get out your magnifying glasses and call in Poirot, Sherlock, and the whole Scooby gang, because we're diving into a mystery! It's the case of the hidden Psalm, and it's a fun one. Have you finally made it through all 150 chapters in the book of Psalms and thought to yourself "you know, this could use one more"? Well you're in luck! But what is Psalm 151, and why is it not included in most Bibles? ---- For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠      Follow us on the various social media places: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/data_over_dogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have you ordered Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Bible Says So⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ yet??? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jon talks about stories that matter to evangelical Christians including the death of James Dobson, Doug Wilson's CNN interview, Alistair Begg's position on compassion and same-sex wedding ceremonies, Larry Arn's propositionalism, Cracker Barrell's rebrand, the future of neo-evangelicalism, etc.Order Against the Waves: Againstthewavesbook.comCheck out Jon's Music: jonharristunes.comTo Support the Podcast: https://www.worldviewconversation.com/support/Become a Patronhttps://www.patreon.com/jonharrispodcastFollow Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonharris1989Follow Jon on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jonharris1989/00:00:00 Doug Wilson00:19:15 Speaking00:20:47 Cracker Barrel00:29:56 Trends and Tribes00:40:44 Rebrands - Begg, Strickland, Greear01:19:07 Reformed Theology and Neo Evangelicalism01:36:59 James Dobson01:56:35 Larry ArnOur Sponsors:* Check out Express VPN: https://expressvpn.com/CONVERSATIONS* Check out TruDiagnostic and use my code HARRIS for a great deal: https://www.trudiagnostic.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/conversations-that-matter8971/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

It's time for another Favored or Forsaken episode! Join Jamie, Erin, and Evan as we discuss Doug Wilson's recent CNN interview, happenings over at the Kennedy Center, and the Vatican's use of hot priests. You'll also hear what's favored for each of us right now! MENTIONS​Broadway Bundle: Get it here! Doug Wilson Interview: Short Version | Long Version Doug Wilson Deep Dive (should you want that): Website | Wiki Interview Responses: Just The Facts, Ma'am by Kaeley Triller Harms | Deconstruction Doulas | Examining Moscow | Sons of Patriarchy PodcastWhat's going on at the Kennedy Center? Learn more here | President Trump's Criticism of the Kennedy CenterCatholic Digital Missionaries and Influencers: Learn more about Hot Priests here | Vatican official releaseHere are the hot priests in question: Father Ambrogio Mazzai | Father Cosimo Schena | Father Giuseppe Fusari Erin's Favored Pick: Better Ways to Read the Bible by Zach Lambert | Free Chapter Jamie's Favored Pick: I've Got Questions Guided Journal by Erin Moon | The Missionary Kids by Holly Berkley FletcherEvan's Favored Pick: Disney Adults by AJ Wolfe The Faith Adjacent Seminary: Support us on Patreon. I've Got Questions by Erin Moon: Order Here | Guided Journal Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Dish from Faith AdjacentFaith Adjacent Merch: Shop HereShop our Amazon Link: amazon.com/shop/faithadjacentSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Open debate and calls and questions on the topics listed - or pretty much anything! I will be covering social dynamics, men and women and C1A tips, Xian Nationalism, and open calls on everythin and perpaps reels - Gnostics, Mormons, MAGA, feminists, libertarians, JWs, Hebrew Israelites, Hebrew Roots, Dispensationalists, current events and news, atheist, on and on! I will be speaking at this conference! Get tickets here https://southernorthodox.org/conferences/3rd-annual-conference/ Send Superchats at any time here: https://streamlabs.com/jaydyer/tip Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnt7Iy8GlmdPwy_Tzyx93bA/join PRE-Order New Book Available in Sept here: https://jaysanalysis.com/product/esoteric-hollywood-3-sex-cults-apocalypse-in-films/ Get started with Bitcoin here: https://www.swanbitcoin.com/jaydyer/ The New Philosophy Course is here: https://marketplace.autonomyagora.com/philosophy101 Set up recurring Choq subscription with the discount code JAY44LIFE for 44% off now https://choq.com Lore coffee is here: https://www.patristicfaith.com/coffee/ Subscribe to my site here: https://jaysanalysis.com/membership-account/membership-levels/ Follow me on R0kfin here: https://rokfin.com/jaydyer Music by Amid the Ruins 1453 https://www.youtube.com/@amidtheruinsOVERHAUL Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnt7Iy8GlmdPwy_Tzyx93bA/join Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnt7Iy8GlmdPwy_Tzyx93bA/join #comedy #religion #podcastBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jay-sanalysis--1423846/support.

And Just Like That writer and producer Samantha Irby joins to discuss the final season, the internet backlash, and what she really thinks about Aidan. Erin and Alyssa also dish on Pete Hegseth's praises for his bigoted pastor, Donald Trump's messy takeover of DC's police, and how school choice is ruining education funding in Arizona. They wrap with a scathing roast of Katie Miller's ridiculous new podcast for conservative moms. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email transcripts@crooked.com and include the name of the podcast.Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reposts video of pastors saying women shouldn't vote (NPR 8/9)U.S. Air Force to deny early retirement benefits to some transgender service members (NPR 8/8)Restoring Confederate memorial to cost $10M: Army official (The Hill 8/7)Trump federalizes DC police, deploys National Guard (NBC Washington 8/11)Nudity on Oklahoma superintendent's office TV was just a mishap, state House speaker suggests (The 19th 8/7)LA County CEO paints bleak financial picture; public hospital closure a possibility (LAist 8/5)Public schools are closing as Arizona's school voucher program soars (Washington Post 8/5)