Podcasts about kubecon north america

Join Bhavin Shah and Ryan Wallner for a recap of announcements and news from KubeCon North America 2024. Check out our website at https://kubernetesbytes.com/ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20241119538933/en/Spectro-Cloud-Closes-75m-Series-C-Led-by-Growth-Equity-at-Goldman-Sachs-Alternatives https://northflank.com/blog/northflank-raises-22m-to-make-kubernetes-work-for-your-developers-ship-workloads-not-infrastructure https://snyk.io/news/snyk-acquires-developer-first-dast-provider-probely/ https://www.nutanix.com/blog/introducing-nutanix-enterprise-ai https://thenewstack.io/stacklok-donates-minder-security-project-to-openssf/ https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/akamai-launches-cloud-agnostic-ready-to-run-application-platform-302302446.html https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20241112064093/en/Loft-Labs-Introduces-vCluster-Cloud-a-Managed-Solution-to-Simplify-and-Reduce-Costs-of-Kubernetes https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/containers-kubernetes/gke-65k-nodes-and-counting https://www.veeam.com/resources/wp-whats-new-veeam-kasten-for-kubernetes.html https://www.netapp.com/blog/trident-24-10-best-storage-kubernetes/ https://podman-desktop.io/blog/2024/11/14/podman-desktop-cncf https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/streamline-kubernetes-cluster-management-with-new-amazon-eks-auto-mode/ https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2024/12/amazon-eks-hybrid-nodes/ https://thenewstack.io/kueue-can-now-schedule-kubernetes-batch-jobs-across-clusters/ https://cloudnativenow.com/kubecon-cnc-na-2024/solo-io-donates-api-gateway-to-cncf-to-advance-kubernetes-connectivity/ https://blocksandfiles.com/2024/11/08/tintri-unveils-kubernetes-container-storage-interface-for-streamlined-management/ https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/stringerai-announcements/kubiya-launches-captain-kubernetes-ai-tool-for-simplifying-kubernetes-management/ https://cloudnativenow.com/topics/cloudnativedevelopment/application-dev/cncf-automates-kubernetes-secops-with-kyverno/ https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2024/11/15/cloud-native-computing-foundation-expands-certification-to-platform-engineering-and-more/ https://training.linuxfoundation.org/platform-engineering-programs https://cloudnativenow.com/topics/cloudnativedevelopment/cncf-kubevirt-v1-4-vms-are-now-just-another-kubernetes-resource/ https://kubevirt.io/user-guide/release_notes/ kubernetes.io/blog/2024/12/11/kubernetes-v1-32-release/ https://thehackernews.com/2024/12/296000-prometheus-instances-exposed.html?utm_source=tldrdevops

Bret and Nirmal recorded this special offline episode at KubeCon North America in Salt Lake City. We hung out at the AWS booth to break down the major trends and developments from the conference. The event drew a record-breaking 10,000 attendees, with roughly half being first-timers to the Cloud Native ecosystem. Starting with Cloud Native Rejekts and moving through the pre-conference events, we noticed Platform Engineering emerged as the dominant theme, with its dedicated conference track drawing standing-room-only crowds.The main conference showcased a notable surge in new vendors, particularly in AI and security sectors, representing about a quarter of all exhibitors. We dissect the key engineering trends, ongoing challenges in Cloud Native adoption, and insights gathered from various conferences including ArgoCon, BackstageCon, and Wasm Day. In our 40-minute discussion, we tried to capture the essence of what made this year's KubeCon significant. It's a great listen whether you couldn't attend or if you're a veteran of the CloudNative community.Creators & Guests Cristi Cotovan - Editor Beth Fisher - Producer Bret Fisher - Host Nirmal Mehta - Host (00:00) - Intro (03:38) - KubeCon Rejekts (04:50) - Better Than Namespaces (07:17) - Day 0 (08:32) - BackstageCon and Platform Interfaces (12:35) - Argo CD and Deployment Dashboards (13:57) - GitOps Bridge: Bridging Infrastructure and GitOps (14:49) - Kubernetes Resource Orchestrator (KRO) (16:23) - Fleet Management in Kubernetes (18:12) - Ford's Approach to Kubernetes Tooling (19:36) - CNOE: Community-Driven Kubernetes Reference Architectures (26:21) - AI Integration in Kubernetes Tools (34:03) - Managing Infrastructure at Scale with Karpenter (35:13) - KubeCon Highlights and Future Trends You can also support my free material by subscribing to my YouTube channel and my weekly newsletter at bret.news!Grab the best coupons for my Docker and Kubernetes courses.Join my cloud native DevOps community on Discord.Grab some merch at Bret's Loot BoxHomepage bretfisher.com

KubeCon North America 2024 took place in Salt Lake City, Utah on Nov 12-15. We interviewed people on the show floor to gather their impressions of the event, what they learned and what they want to see in the future.   Do you have something cool to share? Some questions? Let us know: - web: kubernetespodcast.com - mail: kubernetespodcast@google.com - twitter: @kubernetespod   News of the week Cert-manager is a CNCF graduate project Dapr is a CNCF Graduated project Dapr episode on the Kubernetes Podcast Istio 1.24 release. Ambient Mesh GA Cloud Native Heroes Challenge CNCF Flagship events for 2025 New Cloud Native Certifications Kubernetes certifications prices increase in 2025 wasmCloud is a CNCF incubated project SpectroCloud $75 million Series C funding Solo.io donates Gloo API Gateway to the CNCF   Links from the interview Guests: Rajas Kakodkar Jeremy Rickard Rey Lejano Jimmy Zelinskie Frederic Branczyk Lucy Sweet Sreekaran Srinath Joe Thompson Tag runtime SIG Security SIG Docs WG LTS The Maintainer Monologues - Sarah Christoff, Jason Hall, Scott Rigby, Karen Chu & Ryan Nowak Expanding the Capabilities of Kubernetes Access Control - Jimmy Zelinskie & Lucas Käldström

Catch up on everything you missed at KubeCon North America 2024! Join us for a special recap that brings you closer to the action. This is a special episode in collaboration with the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF), the foundation behind KubeCon+CloudNativeCon and the cloud-native projects. Dotan Horovits, our host and a CNCF Ambassador, will be joined by an all-star panel of cloud-native experts—CNCF Ambassadors Viktor Farcic and Max Körbächer—each bringing their unique insights and takeaways from the conference. Together, they unpack the major project announcements and key themes from this year's event: the standout talks, co-located events, maintainer meetings and those memorable hallway conversations. Get insights from the experts who know the cloud-native space inside out. Viktor Farcic is a lead rapscallion at Upbound and a published author. He is a host of the YouTube channel DevOps Toolkit and a co-host of DevOps Paradox. Max is Co-Founder at Liquid Reply. He is Co-Chair of the CNCF Environmental Sustainability Technical Advisory Group and served 3 years at the Kubernetes release team. He runs the Munich Kubernetes Meetup as well as the Munich and Ukraine Kubernetes Community Days. Dotan Horovits is a DevOps specialist with special focus on observability solutions and related open source projects such as OpenTelemetry, Jaeger, Prometheus and OpenSearch. He runs the OpenObservability Talks podcast, now in its 5th year. Don't miss this expert-led KubeCon recap, in collaboration with the Cloud Native Computing Foundation's official channel! The episode was live-streamed on 19 November 2024 in collaboration with the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and the video is available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TrPev5IzB8 You can read the recap post: https://medium.com/@horovits/1362959030c1 OpenObservability Talks episodes are released monthly, on the last Thursday of each month and are available for listening on your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. We live-stream the episodes on Twitch and YouTube Live - tune in to see us live, and chime in with your comments and questions on the live chat. ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@openobservabilitytalks⁠   https://www.twitch.tv/openobservability⁠ Show Notes: 00:00 - episode and speaker intro 02:45 - KubeCon Salt Lake City stats and trends 05:26 - The cloud-native stack is maturing up 08:12 - KubeCon's role in the cloud-native space 11:23 - Platform Engineering trend 14:07 - Open specifications and Kubernetes API 18:44 - Flatcar joins the CNCF with container focused OS 24:54 - wasmCloud moves to CNCF incubation and WASMCon highlights 31:49 - CNCF Ambassador program and recent Community Awards 35:24 - KubeCon event plan and expansion, and local KCDs 43:34 - Environmental Sustainability TAG 47:46 - Dapr and cert-manager reached CNCF graduation 51:11 - Cloud Native Reference Architectures 54:39 - observability updates for Jaeger, Prometheus and more 58:53 - episode outro Resources: CNCF community awards: https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2024/11/14/cloud-native-computing-foundation-announces-the-2024-community-awards-winners/ Dapr graduation: https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2024/11/12/cloud-native-computing-foundation-announces-dapr-graduation/ wasmCloud moves to incubation: https://www.cncf.io/blog/2024/11/12/cncf-welcomes-wasmcloud-to-the-cncf-incubator/ More on wasmCloud: https://medium.com/p/02a5025c6115 OpenTelemetry expands into CI/CD observability https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:share:7259200802689273856 Jaeger v2 unveiled https://medium.com/p/be612dbee774 Prometheus 3.0 unveiled https://medium.com/p/1c5edca32c87 Flatcar joins the CNCF https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:share:7257278073824288768/ OpenCost matured into incubation https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:share:7257826394179522562 New Cloud Native Reference Architecture hub: https://architecture.cncf.io/ CNCF upcoming events: https://www.cncf.io/events/ Kubernetes Community Days events around the world https://www.cncf.io/kcds/ Socials: Twitter:⁠ https://twitter.com/OpenObserv⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@openobservabilitytalks⁠ Dotan Horovits ============ Twitter: @horovits LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/horovits Mastodon: @horovits@fosstodon BlueSky: @horovits.bsky.social Viktor Farcic =========== Twitter: https://twitter.com/vfarcic LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/viktorfarcic BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/vfarcic.bsky.social Max Körbächer ============= Twitter: https://twitter.com/mkoerbi LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxkoerbaecher BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/mkoerbi.bsky.social Mastodon: https://fosstodon.org/@mkorbi@mastodon.social

#290: Darin catches up with Viktor and Whitney Lee just minutes after they've finished up at KubeCon NA 2024. We discuss the good things and bad things that they experienced while in Salt Lake City.   YouTube channel:  https://youtube.com/devopsparadox   Review the podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://www.devopsparadox.com/review-podcast/   Slack: https://www.devopsparadox.com/slack/   Connect with us at: https://www.devopsparadox.com/contact/

Platform engineering will be a key focus at KubeCon this year, with a special emphasis on AI platforms. Priyanka Sharma, executive director of the Linux Foundation, highlighted the convergence of platform engineering and AI during an interview on The New Stack Makers with Adobe's Joseph Sandoval. KubeCon will feature talks from experts like Chen Goldberg of CoreWeave and Aparna Sinha of CapitalOne, showcasing how AI workloads will transform platform operations.Sandoval emphasized the growing maturity of platform engineering over the past two to three years, now centered on addressing user needs. He also discussed Adobe's collaboration on CNOE, an open-source initiative for internal developer platforms. The intersection of platform engineering, Kubernetes, cloud-native technologies, and AI raises questions about scaling infrastructure management with AI, potentially improving efficiency and reducing toil for roles like SRE and DevOps. Sharma noted that reference architectures, long requested by the CNCF community, will be highlighted at the event, guiding users without dictating solutions. Learn more from The New Stack about Kubernetes: Cloud Native Networking as Kubernetes Starts Its Second DecadePrimer: How Kubernetes Came to Be, What It Is, and Why You Should Care How Cloud Foundry Has Evolved With Kubernetes Join our community of newsletter subscribers to stay on top of the news and at the top of your game. game. https://thenewstack.io/newsletter/

Sakao さんをゲストにお呼びしました。Sakao さんが参加した Kubecon Europe 2024 で気になった3セッションについてどういうセッションだったか、なぜ気になったかについてお話しました。後半ではカンファレンスが行われたパリの観光について Sakao さんのおすすめスポットについてお聞きしました。 KubeCon Europe 2024 KubeCon North America 2024 Building Polyglot Developer Experiences in 2024 - Marcos Lilljedahl & Mauricio Salatino When They Go High, We Go Low – Hooking Libc Calls to Debug Kubernetes Apps - Tal Zwick, MetalBear Building a Large Scale Multi-Cloud Multi-Region SaaS Platform with Kubernetes Controllers Cloudflare took down our website after trying to force us to pay 120k$ within 24h モン・サン＝ミシェル モンマルトル オルセー美術館

The Kubernetes landscape is evolving, shifting from the domain of visionaries and early adopters to a more mainstream audience. Tigera, represented by CEO Ratan Tipirneni at KubeCon North America in Chicago, recognizes the changing dynamics and the demand for simplified Kubernetes solutions. Tigera's open-source Calico security platform has been updated with a focus on mainstream users, presenting a cohesive and user-friendly solution. This update encompasses five key capabilities: vulnerability scoring, configuration hardening, runtime security, network security, and observability.The aim is to provide users with a comprehensive view of their cluster's security through a zero to 100 scoring system, tracked over time. Tigera's recommendation engine suggests actions to enhance overall security based on the risk profile, evaluating factors such as egress traffic controls and workload isolation within dynamic Kubernetes environments. Tigera emphasizes the importance of understanding the actual flow of data across the network, using empirical data and observed behavior to build accurate security measures rather than relying on projections. This approach addresses the evolving needs of customers who seek not just vulnerability scores but insights into runtime behavior for a more robust security profile.Learn more from The New Stack about Tigera and Cloud Native Security:Cloud Native Network Security: Who's Responsible?Turbocharging Host Workloads with Calico eBPF and XDP3 Observability Best Practices for Cloud Native App Security

At KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2022, Amazon Web Services (AWS) revealed plans to mirror Kubernetes assets hosted on Google Cloud, addressing Cloud Native Computing Foundation's (CNCF) egress costs. A year later, the project, led by AWS's Davanum Srinivas, redirects image requests to the nearest cloud provider, reducing egress costs for users.AWS's Todd Neal and Jonathan Innis discussed this on The New Stack Makers podcast recorded at KubeCon North America 2023. Neal explained the registry's functionality, allowing users to pull images directly from the respective cloud provider, avoiding egress costs.The discussion also highlighted AWS's recent open source contributions, including beta features in Kubectl, prerelease of Containerd 2.0, and Microsoft's support for Karpenter on Azure. Karpenter, an AWS-developed Kubernetes cluster autoscaler, simplifies node group configuration, dynamically selecting instance types and availability zones based on running pods.The AWS team encouraged developers to contribute to Kubernetes ecosystem projects and join the sig-node CI subproject to enhance kubelet reliability. The conversation in this episode emphasized the benefits of open development for rapid feedback and community collaboration.Learn more from The New Stack about AWS and Open Source:Powertools for AWS Lambda Grows with Help of VolunteersAmazon Web Services Open Sources a KVM-Based Fuzzing FrameworkAWS: Why We Support Sustainable Open Source 

In this episode of The New Stack Makers, Rob Skillington, co-founder and CTO of Chronosphere, discusses the challenges engineers face in building tools for their organizations. Skillington emphasizes that the "build or buy" decision oversimplifies the issue of tooling and suggests that understanding the abstractions of a project is crucial. Engineers should consider where to build and where to buy, creating solutions that address the entire problem. Skillington advises against short-term thinking, urging innovators to consider the long-term landscape.Drawing from his experience at Uber, Skillington highlights the importance of knowing the audience and customer base, even when they are colleagues. He shares a lesson learned when building a visualization platform for engineers at Uber, where understanding user adoption as a key performance indicator upfront could have improved the project's outcome.Skillington also addresses the "not invented here syndrome," noting its prevalence in organizations like Microsoft and its potential impact on tool adoption. He suggests that younger companies, like Uber, may be more inclined to explore external solutions rather than building everything in-house. The conversation provides insights into Skillington's experiences and the considerations involved in developing internal tools and platforms.Learn more from The New Stack about Software Engineering, Observability, and Chronosphere:Cloud Native Observability: Fighting Rising Costs, IncidentsA Guide to Measuring Developer Productivity 4 Key Observability Best Practices

Have you missed KubeCon North America in Chicago? This one's for you! In this episode, we explored the latest and greatest highlights from the event that every tech enthusiast is talking about. From cutting-edge innovations to industry insights, we've got the broad spectrum covered.  But that's not all! We'll also zoomed in on Istio, the popular service mesh open source project that has just recently reached CNCF graduation. Join us as we map out the service mesh universe, and then dive into Istio's galaxy, unraveling its architecture, features, and the roadmap direction with Ambient. And you'll get to hear it from the Istio authority, Lin Sun. Lin is the Director of Open Source at Solo.io and a CNCF ambassador. She has worked on the Istio service mesh since the beginning of the project in 2017 and serves on the Istio Steering Committee and Technical Oversight Committee. Previously, she was a Senior Technical Staff Member and Master Inventor at IBM for 15+ years. She is the author of the book "Istio Ambient Explained" and co-author of “Istio Explained”, and has more than 200 patents to her name. The episode was live-streamed on 15 November 2023 and the video is available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxnDH6LH-cA You can read the recap post: https://logz.io/blog/kubecon-na-2023-recap/?utm_source=devrel&utm_medium=devrel OpenObservability Talks episodes are released monthly, on the last Thursday of each month and are available for listening on your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. We live-stream the episodes on Twitch and YouTube Live - tune in to see us live, and chime in with your comments and questions on the live chat.https://www.twitch.tv/openobservabilityhttps://www.youtube.com/@openobservabilitytalks   Show Notes: 01:27 - Episode and guest intro 06:34 - KubeCon Highlights: Fluent Bit 09:16 - OpenTelemetry Logging, OTLP is GA 12:53 - OpenTelemetry project journey report 13:43 - WASM Day and Istio Day updates 16:18 - Keynote: the future of Kubernetes 18:51 -Crossplane latest release v1.14  19:24 - Kyverno supports non-Kubernetes workloads 20:12 - Vitess 18 is now GA 20:43 - AI is nascent in CNCF 22:56 - CNCF's GitOps microsurvey  23:56 - eBPF documentary released 27:08 - Service Mesh architecture and landscape 31:36 - Envoy proxy  33:48 - maturity of the projects 39:36 - Istio unique value proposition and adoption 43:55 - Kubernetes released native sidecar support 47:02 - The GAMMA initiative in Kubernetes Gateway API  50:04 - Istio updates: Ambient, multi-claster, Gateway API GA impl. For N-S  53:40 - CNCF Training & Certification Launch Istio Certification 54:56 - Istio roadmap 56:50 - how to follow Istio and Lin Sun and episode wrapup Resources: KubeCon Updates: https://www.cncf.io/blog/2023/11/07/opentelemetry-at-kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america-2023-update/ https://opentelemetry.io/blog/2023/http-conventions-declared-stable/ https://www.cncf.io/reports/opentelemetry-project-journey-report/  https://blog.crossplane.io/crossplane-v1-14/   https://www.cncf.io/blog/2023/11/06/kyverno-expands-beyond-kubernetes/  https://planetscale.com/blog/announcing-vitess-18  https://www.cncf.io/blog/2023/11/07/cncf-gitops-microsurvey-learning-on-the-job-as-gitops-goes-mainstream/  Istio Spotlight: https://istio.io/latest/blog/2023/native-sidecars/ https://istio.io/latest/blog/2022/introducing-ambient-mesh/ https://gateway-api.sigs.k8s.io/concepts/gamma/ https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2023/07/12/cloud-native-computing-foundation-reaffirms-istio-maturity-with-project-graduation/  https://istio.io/latest/get-involved/ https://training.linuxfoundation.org/blog/istio-certification/  https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/istio-ambient-explained/9781098142698/ Socials: Twitter:⁠ https://twitter.com/OpenObserv⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@openobservabilitytalks⁠

In this episode, Ryan and Bhavin talk about Kubecon + Cloud Native Con North America 2023 in Chicago, and discuss all the vendor announcements from the past couple of weeks. Kubecon North America was in Chicago and had more than 13500 attendees and shows a continuous increase in adoption of Kubernetes as the platform to run containers, virtual machines, AI workloads, etc. Check out the KubernetesBytes website: https://www.kubernetesbytes.com/Ads: Ready to shop better hydration, use "kubernetesbytes" to save 20% off anything you order. Try Nom Nom today, go to https://trynom.com/kubernetesbytes and get 50% off your first order plus free shipping.Find all the links to the things we discussed during the episode here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/169mrZGi7oYptuT1nXrmuy-uwIlrAYZ8jJR3p5vRZ5Vo/edit?usp=sharing

#237: Darin catches up with Viktor and Whitney Lee just minutes after they've finished up at KubeCon NA 2023. We discuss the good things and bad things that they experienced while in Chicago. Could one of those things be AI?   YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/devopsparadox   Books and Courses: Catalog, Patterns, And Blueprints https://www.devopstoolkitseries.com/posts/catalog/   Review the podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://www.devopsparadox.com/review-podcast/   Slack: https://www.devopsparadox.com/slack/   Connect with us at: https://www.devopsparadox.com/contact/

The team catches up with Nithya Sivam and Joshua Min who explain how Azure is democratizing access to the self-help content accessible in the Azure Portal. The Help API makes it easier to integrate this self-help into your own workflow.   Media file: https://azpodcast.blob.core.windows.net/episodes/Episode478.mp3 YouTube: https://youtu.be/Depmijm4YUg Resources: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/rest/api/help/?view=rest-help-2023-09-01-preview   Other updates: Realize the full potential of your cloud investment with Azure optimization https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/realize-the-full-potential-of-your-cloud-investment-with-azure-optimization/   Building for the future: The enterprise generative AI application lifecycle with Azure AI https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/building-for-the-future-the-enterprise-generative-ai-application-lifecycle-with-azure-ai/   Join Microsoft at Azure Day & KubeCon North America 2023 in Chicago! https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/apps-on-azure-blog/join-microsoft-at-azure-day-amp-kubecon-north-america-2023-in/ba-p/3958610   Azure Elastic SAN updates: Snapshots, Security, and Usability | Azure updates | Microsoft Azure   Preview: Azure Container Storage in AKS | Azure updates | Microsoft Azure   Public preview: Application Gateway IPv6 support | Azure updates | Microsoft Azure  General Availability: Azure Advisor recommendation improves the reliability of Azure Disks with Zone Redundant Storage | Azure updates | Microsoft Azure

The KubeCon excitement is catching as Michael Levan gets ready to attend for the first time. Grab a rundown of what to expect at the North American event this year as he and Kristina Devochko review sessions and provide advice on how to tackle the massive amount of content that's on the schedule. A strong... Read more »

Grab a rundown of what to expect at KubeCon NA this year as Kubernetes Unpacked co-host Michael Levan prepares to hit the conference floor. The post KU039: Prepping For KubeCon North America 2023 appeared first on Packet Pushers.

The KubeCon excitement is catching as Michael Levan gets ready to attend for the first time. Grab a rundown of what to expect at the North American event this year as he and Kristina Devochko review sessions and provide advice on how to tackle the massive amount of content that's on the schedule. A strong... Read more »

Grab a rundown of what to expect at KubeCon NA this year as Kubernetes Unpacked co-host Michael Levan prepares to hit the conference floor. The post KU039: Prepping For KubeCon North America 2023 appeared first on Packet Pushers.

The KubeCon excitement is catching as Michael Levan gets ready to attend for the first time. Grab a rundown of what to expect at the North American event this year as he and Kristina Devochko review sessions and provide advice on how to tackle the massive amount of content that's on the schedule. A strong... Read more »

Segui questa puntata per ascoltare il racconto di tutto quello che abbiamo scoperto in 3 giorni di conferenza a Detroit direttamente da Giulio Roggero, CTO di Mia-Platform, e Davide Bianchi, Senior Tech Leader di Mia-Platform.

Cloud giant Amazon Web Services manages the largest number of Kubernetes clusters in the world, according to the company.  In this podcast recording, AWS Senior Engineer Jay Pipes discusses AWS' use of Kubernetes, as well as the company's contribution to the Kubernetes code base. The interview was recorded at KubeCon North America last month.The Difference Between Kubernetes and AWSKubernetes is an open source container orchestration platform. AWS is one of the largest providers of cloud services. In 2021, the company generated $61.1 billion in revenue, worldwide. AWS provides a commercial Kubernetes service, called the Amazon Elastic Kubernetes Service (EKS). It simplifies the Kubernetes experience by adding a control plane and worker nodes. In addition to providing a commercial Kubernetes service, AWS supports the development of Kubernetes, by dedicating engineers to the work on the open source project. "It's a responsibility of all of the engineers in the service team to be aware of what's going on and the upstream community to be contributing to that upstream community, and making it succeed," Pipes said. "If the upstream open source projects upon which we depend are suffering or not doing well, then our service is not going to do well. And by the same token, if we can help that upstream project or project to be successful, that means our service is going to be more successful."What is Kubernetes in AWS?In addition to EKS, AWS has also a number of other tools to help Kubernetes users. One is Karpenter, an open-source, flexible, high-performance Kubernetes cluster autoscaler built with AWS. Karpenter provides more fine-grained scaling capabilities, compared to Kubernetes' built-in Cluster Autoscaler, Pipes said. Instead of using Cluster Autoscaler, Karpenter deploys AWS' own Fleet API, which offers superior scheduling capabilities. Another tool for Kubernetes users is cdk8s, which is an open-source software development framework for defining Kubernetes applications and reusable abstractions using familiar programming languages and rich object-oriented APIs. It is similar to the AWS Cloud Development Kit (CDK), which helps users deploy applications using AWS CloudFormation, but instead of the output being a CloudFormation template, the output is a YAML manifest that can be understood by Kubernetes.AWS and KubernetesIn addition to providing open source development help to Kubernetes, AWS has offered to help defray the considerable expenses of hosting the Kubernetes development and deployment process. Currently, the Kubernetes upstream build process is hosted on the Google Cloud Platform, and artifact registry is hosted in Google's container registry, and totals about 1.5TB worth of storage. Each month, AWS alone was paying $90-$100,000 a month for egress costs, just to have the Kubernetes code on an AWS-hosted infrastructure, Pipes said. AWS has been working on a mirror of the Kubernetes assets that would reside on the company's own cloud servers, thereby eliminating the Google egress costs typically borne by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. "By doing that we completely eliminate the egress costs out of Google data centers and into AWS data centers," Pipes said.

Klaus and I go through what happened at the Kubecon North America event in Detroit. Specifically, lessons learned in watching how the community reacts to new technologies like CRDs, declarative programming, and cluster APIs. We also discuss the health of the community and the operators and vendors who were involved. We give our impressions and insight - this conversation deep dives into practical use and futures in Kubernetes. Transcript: https://otter.ai/u/8sNj_ZMTbKuJxAhOZhlvLAckWhc Image: https://www.pexels.com/photo/elderly-man-and-woman-looking-outside-window-7551662/

Redis is not just a cache. It is used in the broader cloud native ecosystem, fits into many service-oriented architectures, and simplifies the deployment and development of modern applications, according to Madelyn Olson, a principal engineer at AWS, during an interview on the New Stack Makers at KubeCon North America in Detroit. Olson said that people have a primary backend database or some other workflow that takes a long time to run. They store the intermediate results in Redis, which provides lower latency and higher throughput. "But there are plenty of other ways you can use Redis," Olson said. "One common way is what I like to call it a data projection API. So you basically take a bunch of different sources of data, maybe a Postgres database, or some other type of Cassandra database, and you project that data into Redis. And then you just pull from the Redis instance. This is a really great, great use case for low latency applications." Redis creator Salvatore Sanfilippo's approach provides a lesson in how to contribute to open source, which Olson recounted in our interview. Olson said he was the only maintainer with write permissions for the project. That meant contributors would have to engage quite a bit to get a response from Sanfilippo. So Olson did what open source contributors do when they want to get noticed. She "chopped wood and carried water," a term that in open source reflects on working to take care of tasks that need attention. That helped Sanfilippo scale himself a bit and helped Olson get involved in the project. It is daunting to get into open source development work, Olson said. A new contributor will face people with a lot more experience and get afraid to open issues. But if a contributor has a use case and helps with documentation or a bug, then most open source maintainers are willing to help. "One big problem throughout open source is, they're usually resource constrained, right?," Olson said. "Open source is oftentimes a lot of volunteers. So they're usually very willing to get more people to help with the project." What's it like now working at AWS on open source projects? Things have changed a lot since Olson joined AWS in 2015, Olson said. APIs were proprietary back in those days. Today, it's almost the opposite of how it used to be. To keep something internal now requires approval, Olson said. Internal differentiation is not needed. For example, open source Redis is most important, with AWS on top as the managed service.

In this part - 1 episode of Kubernetes Bytes - live from Detroit during the Kubecon + CloudNativeCon North America 2022, Ryan Wallner and Bhavin Shah talk to guests on the show floor and learn more about what's new at Kubecon, what are their thoughts on Day 0 events, Keynotes, etc, and also share some things to do in Detroit. They talk to Peter Zaitsev - Founder of Percona, Gabriele Bartolini - VP of Cloud Native at EDB, Tim Banks - Lead Developer Advocate at Dell Technologies and Stephen Rust - Principal Software Engineer at Akamai. Show Notes: Percona Kubernetes Operators PostgreSQL 15 CloudNativePG Linode Kubernetes Engine Linode Careers

In this part - 2 episode of Kubernetes Bytes - live from Detroit during the Kubecon + CloudNativeCon North America 2022, Ryan Wallner and Bhavin Shah talk to guests on the show floor and learn more about what's new at Kubecon, what are their thoughts on Day 0 events, Keynotes, etc, and also share some things to do in Detroit. They talk to Brad Ascar - Principal Product Manager at Redis, Ben A - Developer Relations at Teleport, Sean Carolan - Director of Sales Engineering at Instruqt, Scott Lowe - Developer Relations at Pulumi. Show Notes: Redis Active - Active Databases on Kubernetes What's new with Pulumi + Kubernetes Oct 2022 Teleport at Kubecon 2022 Buddy's Pizza - Detroit Happy's Pizza - Detroit Instruqt

In the second set of interviews from KubeCon North America 2021, Gerhard and Liz Rice talk about eBPF superpowers - Cilium + Hubble - and what's it like to work with Duffie Cooley. Jared Watts shares the story behind Crossplane reaching incubating status, and Dan Mangum tells us what it was like to be at this KubeCon in person. Dan's new COO role (read Click Ops Officer) comes up. David Ansari from VMware speaks about his first KubeCon experience both as an attendee and as a speaker. The RabbitMQ Deep Dive talk that he gave will be a nice surprise if you watch it - link in the show notes. Dan Lorenc brings his unique perspective on supply chain security, and tells us about the new company that he co-founded, Chainguard. How to secure container images gets covered, as well as one of the easter eggs that Scott Nichols put in chainguard.dev.

In the second set of interviews from KubeCon North America 2021, Gerhard and Liz Rice talk about eBPF superpowers - Cilium + Hubble - and what's it like to work with Duffie Cooley. Jared Watts shares the story behind Crossplane reaching incubating status, and Dan Mangum tells us what it was like to be at this KubeCon in person. Dan's new COO role (read Click Ops Officer) comes up. David Ansari from VMware speaks about his first KubeCon experience both as an attendee and as a speaker. The RabbitMQ Deep Dive talk that he gave will be a nice surprise if you watch it - link in the show notes. Dan Lorenc brings his unique perspective on supply chain security, and tells us about the new company that he co-founded, Chainguard. How to secure container images gets covered, as well as one of the easter eggs that Scott Nichols put in chainguard.dev.

In this episode of Kubernetes Bytes, hosts Bhavin Shah and Ryan Wallner recap their experiences with KubeCon North America 2021. The hosts talk about their opinions in regards to the overall success of KubeCon NA 2021, their first-hand experiences both in-person as well as virtual and the various as news and announcements that relate to using data on Kubernetes. Show Links https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2021/10/13/entry-level-kubernetes-certification-to-help-advance-cloud-careers/ https://dok.community/dokc-2021-report/ https://cilium.io/blog/2021/10/13/cilium-joins-cncf https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe/program/cfp/ https://openssf.org/press-release/2021/10/13/open-source-security-foundation-raises-10-million-in-new-commitments-to-secure-software-supply-chains/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kc8BbiVDVU "Whats new in Kubernetes Storage - Xing Yang" Portworx - PX-Backup 2.1 - https://portworx.com/blog/introducing-px-backup-2-1/ Red Hat OpenShift 4.9 and Advanced Cluster Management 2.4 - https://thenewstack.io/red-hat-openshift-4-9s-single-node-clusters-for-the-edge/ NetApp Astra Data Store - https://www.crn.com/news/storage/netapp-debuts-astra-data-store-with-kubernetes-native-software-defined-file-services Google Anthos for VMs - https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/hybrid-cloud/introducing-anthos-for-vms-and-other-app-modernization-tools IBM Spectrum Scale and Spectrum Protect Plus - https://www.ibm.com/blogs/systems/simple-resilient-hybrid-cloud-with-ibm-storage/ SUSE Harvester - https://www.zdnet.com/article/suse-harvester-deploying-virtual-machines-with-kubernetes Akuity - https://venturebeat.com/2021/10/11/akuity-launches-to-be-the-argo-ent

This is Gerhard's first set of interviews from KubeCon North America 2021. William Morgan shares with us some of the finer Linkerd details, such as the underlying security theme, why native Kubernetes objects are preferable to more CRDs, and the joy of meeting team members in person. Frederic Branczyk speaks about Parca, a new continuous system profiling tool that uses eBPF to help you understand what is happening on your hosts. Andrew Rynhard gives us a great Talos OS and Kubespan perspective, and shares some really good follow-up videos on these topics. The last conversation is with David Flanagan - you know him as Rawkode - about new beginnings. It's only been less than two months since we've had him in episode 18, and he kept really busy. Caleb, his 3 weeks old baby boy, was the youngest attendee at this conference, and some talks made him sleepy, so good job everyone.

This is Gerhard's first set of interviews from KubeCon North America 2021. William Morgan shares with us some of the finer Linkerd details, such as the underlying security theme, why native Kubernetes objects are preferable to more CRDs, and the joy of meeting team members in person. Frederic Branczyk speaks about Parca, a new continuous system profiling tool that uses eBPF to help you understand what is happening on your hosts. Andrew Rynhard gives us a great Talos OS and Kubespan perspective, and shares some really good follow-up videos on these topics. The last conversation is with David Flanagan - you know him as Rawkode - about new beginnings. It's only been less than two months since we've had him in episode 18, and he kept really busy. Caleb, his 3 weeks old baby boy, was the youngest attendee at this conference, and some talks made him sleepy, so good job everyone.

Cloud Security News this week 21 October 2021 It's a month full of conferences and as promised we are back with our 2nd episode this week to bring you the cloud security highlights from KubeCon. In this episode we will share some of our team's favourite from Kubecon 2021 North America If you aren't quite familiar with the wonderful world of Kubernetes, there are a few weird and wonderful open source acronyms in today's episode. TUF refers to The Update Framework, SPIFFE refers to Secure Production Identity Framework for Everyone SPIFFE, SPIRE is the SPIFFE's Runtime Environment). Now that we are all across cool Kube words - lets into the talks Starting off with the talk from Andrew Martin, Co-Founder of Control Plane and Author of Hacking Kubernetes and Kubernetes Threat Modelling. He spoke about Kubernetes Supply Chain Security - he showcased work to build a Kubernetes Software Factory with Tekton and Deep dived on signing and verification approaches to securely build software with (TUF) SPIFFE, SPIRE and sigstore Ian Coldwater from Twilio; Brad Geesaman & Rory McCune from Aqua Security Duffie Cooley from Isovalent combined forces to share with the community how they do security research or hacking Kubenetes clusters using a recently discovered Kubernetes CVE (Common Vulnerability and exposure) - Their talk was called Exploiting a Slightly Peculiar Volume Configuration with SIG-Honk Matt Jarvis from Synk shared what to do if your container has a huge number of Vulnerabilities - how to prioritise them and remediate them in his talk My Container Image has 500 Vulnerabilities, Now What? Talking about containers and Vulnerability scanning If you want to know about how vulnerability scanners work, their blind spots and how to implement a practical risk based approach to remedy vulnerabilities that really matter to your organisation - check out Pushkar Joglekar's Keeping Up with the CVEs: How to Find a Needle in a Haystack? If you find yourself asking “How do I access my S3 bucket in AWS from my GCP cluster?” Brandon Lum & Mariusz Sabath, IBM may have the answer for you in their talk Untangling the Multi-Cloud Identity and Access Problem With SPIFFE Tornjak where they talk about a proposed shift in the perspective of workload identity from being “platform specific” to “organization wide” using SPIFFE/SPIRE and the new SPIFFE Tornjak project. Episode Show Notes on Cloud Security Podcast Website. Podcast Twitter - Cloud Security Podcast (@CloudSecPod) Instagram - Cloud Security News If you want to watch videos of this LIVE STREAMED episode and past episodes, check out: - Cloud Security Podcast: - Cloud Security Academy:

Presentations - Some in person, Some recorded with presenter on hand in slack or the platform. Some given virtually. Wide spectrum of quality and content. Upstream Kubernetes Focus Downstream Kubernetes Focus Vendor related Individual experience related to Kubernetes or tangential topic API Clarity - Tooling to detect shadow and zombie APIs. Depends on Istio. How NOT to Start with Kubernetes - Christian Heckelmann, Dynatrace Improving Dev Experience: How We Built a Cloud Native Dev Stack At Scale - Srinidhi S & Venkatesan Vaidyanathan, Razorpay One Engineer across 3 months. We are still building a lot of features, as we speak. Simplify developer workflow and reduce time to rollout features independently. Due to limitations with telepresence rebuilt a tool that might not was aware of. Okteto for file syncing. Jasmine James Keynote Discoverability UnderstandingScreen recordings User interviews Search Analytics MetricsOnboarding time Number of merges per developer / day Deploys to Production eNPS Core Improvements Single-sourcing guidanceTemplates Hubs Centralized Support Usability Understanding Usability TestingOpen Ended Tasks Closed Ended Tasks MetricsSuccess rate Time-based efficiency Core ImprovementsGolden Paths Automation Error Prevention Capability UnderstandingJourney Mapping - Book Reference Surveys MetricsCustomer Satisfaction (eNPS) Core ImprovementsPersona mapped capabilities Real time tool feedback Stability UnderstandingIncident Management Data Post Mortems Surveys Focus Groups Metrics Tool and Capability uptimeEnvironment specific SLOs Mean Time between Outages Core ImprovementsIntentional post mortems Centralized Support Change is Hard - Securing the Future Today- Andrew Clay Shafer, Red Hat Software is eating software. Software is eating software security. You build it you run it. Software layer not the platform or infrastructure services. Developer Experience - Platforms as a Service - Thursday Vendors that I liked Rookout - Debugging code paths in production. Gitpod

Presentations - Some in person, Some recorded with presenter on hand in slack or the platform. Some given virtually. Wide spectrum of quality and content. Upstream Kubernetes Focus Downstream Kubernetes Focus Vendor related Individual experience related to Kubernetes or tangential topic API Clarity - Tooling to detect shadow and zombie APIs. Depends on Istio. How NOT to Start with Kubernetes - Christian Heckelmann, Dynatrace Improving Dev Experience: How We Built a Cloud Native Dev Stack At Scale - Srinidhi S & Venkatesan Vaidyanathan, Razorpay One Engineer across 3 months. We are still building a lot of features, as we speak. Simplify developer workflow and reduce time to rollout features independently. Due to limitations with telepresence rebuilt a tool that might not was aware of. Okteto for file syncing. Jasmine James Keynote Discoverability UnderstandingScreen recordings User interviews Search Analytics MetricsOnboarding time Number of merges per developer / day Deploys to Production eNPS Core Improvements Single-sourcing guidanceTemplates Hubs Centralized Support Usability Understanding Usability TestingOpen Ended Tasks Closed Ended Tasks MetricsSuccess rate Time-based efficiency Core ImprovementsGolden Paths Automation Error Prevention Capability UnderstandingJourney Mapping - Book Reference Surveys MetricsCustomer Satisfaction (eNPS) Core ImprovementsPersona mapped capabilities Real time tool feedback Stability UnderstandingIncident Management Data Post Mortems Surveys Focus Groups Metrics Tool and Capability uptimeEnvironment specific SLOs Mean Time between Outages Core ImprovementsIntentional post mortems Centralized Support Change is Hard - Securing the Future Today- Andrew Clay Shafer, Red Hat Software is eating software. Software is eating software security. You build it you run it. Software layer not the platform or infrastructure services. Developer Experience - Platforms as a Service - Thursday Vendors that I liked Rookout - Debugging code paths in production. Gitpod

In the 5th episode, they are pleased to bring you a conversation with Priyanka Sharma.  Priyanka is the GM of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF). Topics covered include: Kubecon, diversity, equity & inclusion, certifications & education, cloud native landscape, CNCF Technology Radar, CNCF DevStats and more.Kubecon EU (past): https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe/Kubecon North America: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america/CNCF: https://www.cncf.io/Cloud Native Landscape: https://landscape.cncf.io/CNCF Technology Radar:  https://radar.cncf.io/CNCF DevStats: https://devstats.cncf.io/CNCF Slack: https://cloud-native.slack.com/

What is DataOps? Why is a real-time data platform essential to the use cases driving it? How can you build data pipelines with open source complexity? In this episode of The New Stack Makers live — yet from our respective sofas — from KubeCon North America, we talk to Andrew Stevenson, chief technical officer and co-founder of Lenses, about how Apache Kafka and Kubernetes can together dramatically increase the agility, efficiency and security of building real-time data applications.

Youtube https://youtu.be/zYAe0X-WRjgДайджест второго дня конференции KubeCon North America 2020Итак друзья первый официальный день конференции KubeCon North America. Да-да, Вчера был день номер ноль - все честно.Из-за разницы во времени начало в 20-0 по Киеву и дальше пока не уснешь. Можно смотреть в записи конечно, но хочется новости знать не самым последним.00:00 Intro00:35 Agenda00:45 Keynotes01:00 Dan Kohn02:30 Открытие конференции02:56 Традиции KubeCon03:20 Апдейты CNCF04:05 Кого ищут на jobboard05:20 Наклейки05:51 101 треки06:25 kubectl plugin07:20 ClickOps, GitOps, SheetOps09:48 Основные треки13:15 Command Line Heroes Game!

Дайджест первого дня конференции KubeCon North America 2020В этом эпизоде сделаем краткий обзор тем обсуждаемых на конференции - если вас заинтересует что-то более подробно - дайте знать в комментариях.Мы прогуляемся с вами по виртуальным стартап холлам - я нашел там кое-что интересное, расскажу вам про анонс интереснейших на мой взгляд панельных дискуссий, посмотрим что там за сувениры в этот раз (откровенно говоря, я до сих пор неполучил футболку с Кубекон европа), кого хантят на джоб бордах и на завершение я подготовил вам примечательное демо от стартапа gitpod.00:00 Intro00:45 Agenda01:35 Новости01:45 Виртуальный зал02:45 Список докладов03:50 American Style04:10 KubeCon Store04:30 Спонсор Холл04:45 Job Board05:36 Прекратить писать операторы06:34 Fast, Simple Go+Docker Development06:53 Как управлять 2,5 миллионами строк YAML08:35 Стандартизация облачных приложений в разные облака09:21 Declarative Testing Clusters with KUTTL10:38 Taking Envoy Beyond C++ with WebAssembly 11:30 Telco Stack: Observability приносит ясность в мир 5G12:40 Новый подход к логированию в виде стека: Fluent Bit + PostgreSQL (FPS)13:38 Is the Edge More Important Than the Service Mesh?14:43 Kubernetes Networking by Google16:00 Стартап Холл - самые непонятные проекты для меня17:00 KubeCost17:15 Проекты на базе ML17:35 Shipa - загадка, а не проект18:45 GitPod - demo24:40 Итоги

This episode is sponsored by “The Chief IO”. The Chief I/O is the IT leaders' source for insights about DevOps, Cloud-Native, and other related topics. It's also a place where companies can share their stories and experience with the community. Visit www.thechief.io to read insightful stories from cloud-native companies or to submit yours. It's 2018 in Kubecon North America, a loud echo in the microphone, and then Ben Sigelman is on the stage. There is conventional wisdom that observing microservice is hard. Google and Facebook solved this problem, right? They solved it in a way that allowed Observability to scale to multiple orders of magnitude to suit their use cases. The prevailing assumption that we needed to sacrifice features in order to scale is wrong. In other words, the notion that people need to solve scalability problems as a tradeoff for having a powerful set of features is incorrect. People assume that you need these three pillars of Observability: metrics, logging, and tracing, and all of a sudden, everything is solved. However, more often than not, this is not the case. I'm Kassandra Russel, and today we are going to discuss Observability and why this is a critical day-2 operation in Kubernetes. Next, we will discuss the problems with Observability and leverage its three pillars to dive deep into some concepts like service level objectives, service level indicators, and finally, service level agreements. Welcome to episode 6! Moving from a world of monolithic to microservices world solved a lot of problems. This is true for the scalability of machines but also of the teams working on them. Kubernetes largely empowered us to migrate these monolithic applications to microservices. However, it made our applications distributed in nature. The nature of Distributed Computing added more complexity in how microservices interact. Having multiple dependencies in each one produces a higher overhead in monitoring. Observability became more critical in this context. According to some, Observability is another soundbite without much meaning. However, not everyone thought this way. Charity Majors, a proponent of Observability, defines it as the power to answer any questions about what's happening on the inside of the system just by observing the outside of the system, without having to ship new code to answer new questions. It's truly what we need our tools to deliver now that system complexity is outpacing our ability to predict what's going to break. According to Charity, you need Observability because you can “completely own” your system. You have the ability to make changes based on data you have observed from the system. This makes Observability a powerful tool in highly complex systems like microservices and distributed architectures. Imagine you are sleeping one night and suddenly your phone rings. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thedevopsfauncast/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thedevopsfauncast/support

Today on the show we have esteemed Kubernetes thought-leader, Kelsey Hightower, with us. We did not prepare a topic as we know that Kelsey presents talks and features on podcasts regularly, so we thought it best to pick his brain and see where the conversation takes us. We end up covering a mixed bag of super interesting Kubernetes related topics. Kelsey begins by telling us what he has been doing and shares with us his passion for learning in public and why he has chosen to follow this path. From there, we then talk about the issue of how difficult many people still think Kubernetes is. We discover that while there is no doubting that it is complicated, at one point, Linux was the most complicated thing out there. Now, we install Linux servers without even batting an eyelid and we think we can reach the same place with Kubernetes in the future if we shift our thinking! We also cover other topics such as APIs and the debates around them, common questions Kelsey gets before finally ending with a brief discussion on KubeCon. From the attendance and excitement, we saw that this burgeoning community is simply growing and growing. Kelsey encourages us all to enjoy this spirited community and what the innovation happening in this space before it simply becomes boring again. Tune in today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Bryan Liles Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: Learn more about Kelsey Hightower, his background and why he teaches Kubernetes! The purpose of Kelsey’s course, Kubernetes the Hard Way. Why making the Kubernetes cluster disappear will change the way Kubernetes works. There is a need for more ops-minded thinking for the current Kubernetes problems. Find out why Prometheus is a good example of ops-thinking applied to a system. An overview of the diverse ops skillsets that Kelsey has encountered. Being ops-minded is just an end –you should be thinking about the next big thing! Discover the kinds of questions Kelsey is most often asked and how he responds. Some interesting thinking and developments in the backup space of Kubernetes. Is it better to backup or to have replicas? If the cost of losing data is very high, then backing up cannot be the best solution. Debates around which instances are not the right ones to use Kubernetes in. The Kubernetes API is the part everyone wants to use, but it comes with the cluster. Why the Kubernetes API is only useful when building a platform. Can the Kubernetes control theory be applied to software? Protocols are often forgotten about when thinking about APIs. Some insights into the interesting work Akihiro Suda’s is doing. Learn whether Kubernetes can run on Edge or not. Verizon: how they are changing the Edge game and what the future trajectory is. The interesting dichotomy that Edge presents and what this means. Insights into the way that KubeCon is run and why it’s structured in the way it is. How Spotify can teach us a lesson in learning new skills! Quotes: “The real question to come to mind: there is so much of that work that how are so few of us going to accomplish it unless we radically rethink how it will be done?” — @mauilion [0:06:49] “If ops were to put more skin in the game earlier on, they would definitely be capable of building these systems. And maybe they even end up more mature as more operations people put ops-minded thinking into these problems.” — @kelseyhightower [0:04:37] “If you’re in operations, you should have been trying to abstract away all of this stuff for the last 10 to 15 years.” — @kelseyhightower [0:12:03] “What are you backing up and what do you hope to restore?” — @kelseyhightower [0:20:07] “Istio is a protocol for thinking about service mesh, whereas Kubernetes provides the API for building such a protocol.” — @kelseyhightower [0:41:57] “Go to sessions you know nothing about. Be confused on purpose.” — @kelseyhightower [0:51:58] “Pay attention to the fundamentals. That’s the people stuff. Fundamentally, we’re just some people working on some stuff.” — @kelseyhightower [0:54:49] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Kelsey Hightower — https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower Kelsey Hightower on GitHub — https://github.com/kelseyhightower Interaction Protocols: It's All about Good Manners — https://www.infoq.com/presentations/history-protocols-distributed-systems Akihiro Suda — https://twitter.com/_AkihiroSuda_ Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisia/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilion/ Bryan Liles on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanliles/ KubeCon North America — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america-2019/ Linux — https://www.linux.org/ Amazon Fargate — https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ Go — https://golang.org/ Docker — https://www.docker.com/ Vagrant — https://www.vagrantup.com/ Prometheus — https://prometheus.io/ Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/ Verizon — https://www.verizonwireless.com/ Spotify — https://www.spotify.com/ Transcript: EPISODE 7 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets, and today we have a special guest with us, Kelsey Hightower. A lot of people listening to us today will know Kelsey, but as usual, there are a lot of new comers in this space. So Kelsey, please give us an introduction. [00:01:00] KH: Yeah. So I consider myself a minimalist. So I want to keep this short. I work at Google, on Google Cloud stuff. I’ve been involved with the Kubernetes community for what? 3, 4, 5 years ever since it’s been out, and one main goal, learning in public and helping other people do the same. [00:01:16] CC: There you go. You do have a repo on your GitHub that it’s about learning Kubernetes the hard way. Are you still maintaining that? [00:01:26] KH: Yeah. So every six months or so. So Kubernetes is a hard way for those that don’t know. It’s a guide, a tutorial. You can copy and paste. It takes about three hours, and the whole goal of that guide was to teach people how to stand up a Kubernetes cluster from the ground up. So starting from scratch, 6 VMs, you install etcd, all the components, the nodes, and then you run a few test workloads so you can get a feel for Kubernetes. The history behind that was when I first joined Google, we were all concerned about the adaption of such a complex system that Kubernetes is, right? Docker Swarm is out at the time. A lot of people are using Mesos and we’re wondering like a lot of the feedback at that time was Kubernetes is too complex. So Kubernetes the hard way was built as an idea that if people understand how it worked just like they understand how Linux works, because that’s also complex, that if people just saw how the moving pieces fit together, then they would complain less about the complexity and have a way to kind of grasp it. [00:02:30] DC: I’m back. This is Duffie Colley. I’m back this week, and then we also have Michael and Bryan with us. So looking forward to this session talking through this stuff. [00:02:40] CC: Yeah. Thank you for doing that. I totally forgot to introduce who else is in this show, and me, Carlisia. We didn’t plan what the topic is going to be today. I will take a wild guess, and we are going to touch on Kubernetes. I have so many questions for you, Kelsey. But first and foremost, why don’t you tell us what you would love to talk about? One thing that I love about you is that every time I hear an interview of you, you’re always talking about something different, or you’re talking about the same thing in a different way. I love that about the way you speak. I know you offer to be on a lot of podcast shows, which is how we ended up here and I was thinking, “Oh my gosh! We’re going to talk about what everybody is going to talk about, but I know that’s not going to happen.” So feel free to get a conversation started, and we are VMware engineers here. So come at us with questions, but also what you would like to talk about on our show today. [00:03:37] KH: Yeah. I mean, we’re all just coming straight off the hills of KubeCon, right? So this big, 12,000 people getting together. We’re super excited about Kubernetes and the Mister V event, things are wrapping up there as well. When we start to think about Kubernetes and what’s going to happen, and a lot of people saw Amazon jump in with Fargate for EKS, right? So those unfamiliar with that offering, over the years, all the cloud providers have been providing some hosted Kubernetes offering, the ideas that the cloud provider, just like we do with hypervisors and virtual machines, would provide this base infrastructure so you can focus on using Kubernetes. You’ve seen this even flow down on-prem with VMware, right? VMware saying, “Hey, Kubernetes is going to be a part of this control plane that you can use to Kubernetes’ API to manage virtual machines and containers on-prem.” So at some point now, where do we go from here? There’s a big serverless movement, which is trying to eliminate infrastructure for all kinds of components, whether that’s compute, database as a storage. But even in the Kubernetes world, I think there’s an appetite when we saw this with Fargate, that we need to make the Kubernetes cluster disappear, right? If we can make it disappear, then we can focus on building new platforms that extend the API or, hell, just using Kubernetes as is without thinking about managing nodes, operating systems and autoscalers. I think that’s kind of been the topic that I’m pretty interested in talking about, because that feature means lots of things disappear, right? Programming languages and compilers made assembly disappear for a lot of developers. Assembly is still there. I think people get caught up on nothing goes away. They’re right. Nothing goes away, but the number of people who have to interact with that thing is greatly reduced. [00:05:21] BL: You know what, Kelsey? I’m going to have you get out of my brain, because that was the exact example that I was going to use. I was on a bus today and I was thinking about all the hubbub, about the whole Fargate EKS thing, and then I was thinking, “Well, Go, for example, can generate assembler and then it compiles that down.” No one complains about the length of the assembler that Go generates. Who cares? That’s how we should think about this problem. That’s a whole solvable problem. Let’s think about bigger things. [00:05:51] KH: I think it’s because in operations we tend to identify ourselves as the people responsible for running the nodes. We’re the people responsible for tuning the API server. When someone says it’s going to go away, in ops – And you see this in some parts, right? Ops, some people focus a lot more on observability. They can care less about what machine something runs on. They’re still going to try to observe and tune it. You see this in SRE and some various practices. But a lot of people who came up in a world like I have in a traditional ops background, you were the one that pixie-booted the server. You installed that Linux OS. You configured it with Puppet. When someone tells you, “We’re going to move on from that as if it’s a good thing.” You’re going to be like, “Hold up. That’s my job.” [00:06:36] DC: Definitely. We’ve touched this topic through a couple of different times on this show as well, and it definitely comes back to like understanding that, in my opinion, it’s not about whether there will be a worker for people who are in operations, people who want to focus on that. The real question that come to mind is like there is so much of that work that how are so few of us are going to be able to accomplish it unless we radically re-sync how it will be done. We’re vastly outnumbered. The number of people walking into the internet for the first time every day is mind-boggling. [00:07:08] KH: In early days, we have this goal of abstract or automating ourselves out of a job, and anyone that tried that a number of times knows that you’re always going to have something else to do. I think if we carry that to the infrastructure, I want to see the ops folks. I was very surprised that Docker didn’t come from operations folks. It came from the developer folks. Same thing for Vagrant and the same thing from Kubernetes. These are developer-minded folks that want to tackle infrastructure problems. If I think if ops were to put more skin in the game earlier on, definitely capable of building these systems and maybe they even end up more mature as more operations people put ops-minded thinking to these problems. [00:07:48] BL: Well, that’s exactly what we should do. Like you said, Kelsey, we will always have a job. Whenever we solve one problem, we could think about more interesting problems. We don’t think about Linux on servers anymore. We just put Linux on servers and we run it. We don’t think about the 15 years where it was little rocky. That’s gone now. So think about what we did there and let’s do that again with what we’re doing now. [00:08:12] KH: Yeah. I think the Prometheus community is a good example of operations-minded folks producing a system. When you meet the kind of the originators of Prometheus, they took a lot of their operational knowledge and kind of build this metrics and monitoring standard that we all kind of think about now when we talk about some levels of observability, and I think that’s what happens when you have good operations people that take prior experience, the knowledge, and that can happen over code these days. This is the kind of systems they produce, and it’s a very robust and extensible API that I think you start to see a lot of adaption. [00:08:44] BL: One more thing on Prometheus. Prometheus is six-years-old. Just think about that, and that’s not done yet, and it’s just gotten better and better and better. We go to give up our old thing so we can get better and better and better. That’s just what I want to add. [00:08:58] MG: Kelsey, if you look at the – Basically your own history of coming from ops, as I understood your own history, right? Now being kind of one of the poster childs in the Kubernetes world, you see the world changing to serverless, to higher abstractions, more complex systems on one hand, but then on the other side, we have ops. Looking beyond or outside the world of Silicon Valley into the traditional ops, traditional large enterprise, what do you think is the current majority level of these ops people? I don’t want to discriminate anyone here. I’m just basically throwing this out as a question. Where do you think do they need to go in terms of to keep up with this evolving and higher level abstractions where we don’t really care about nitty-gritty details? [00:09:39] KH: Yes. So this is a good, good question. I spent half of my time. So I probably spent time onsite with at least 100 customers a year globally. I fly on a plane and visit them in their home turf, and you definitely meet people at various skill levels and areas of responsibility. I want to make sure that I’m clear about the areas of responsibility. Sometimes you’re hired in an area of responsibility that’s below your skillset. Some people are hired to manage batch jobs or to translate files from XML to JSON. That really doesn’t say a lot about their skillset. It just kind of talks about the area of responsibility. So shout out to all the people that are dealing with main frames and having to deal with that kind of stuff. But when you look at it, you have the opportunity to rise up to whatever level you want to be in in terms of your education. When we talk about this particular question, some people really do see themselves as operators, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Meaning, they could come in. They get a system and they turn the knobs. You gave me a mainfrastructure me, I will tell you how to turn the knobs on that mainframe. You buy me a microwave, I’ll tell you how to pop popcorn. They’re not very interested in building a microwave. Maybe they have other things that are more important to them, and that is totally okay. Then you have people who are always trying to push the boundaries. Before Kubernetes, if I think back to 10 years ago, maybe 8. When I was working in a traditional enterprise, like kind of the ones you’re talking about or hinting at, the goal has always been to abstract away all of these stuff that it means to deploy an application the right way in a specific environment for that particular company. The way I manage to do it was say, “Hey, look. We have a very complex change in management processes.” I work in finance at that time. So everything had to have a ticket no matter how good the automation was. So I decided to make JIRA the ticketing system their front door to do everything. So you go to JIRA. There’ll be a custom field that says, “Hey, here are all the RPMs that have been QA’d by the QA team. Here are all the available environments.” You put those two fields in. That ticket goes to change in management and approval, and then something below the scenes automated everything, in that case it was Puppet, Red Hat and VMware, right? So I think what most people have been doing if you’re in the world of abstracting this stuff away and making it easier for the company to adapt, you’ve already been pushing these ideas that we call serverless now. I think the cloud providers put these labels on platforms to describe the contract between us and the consumer of the APIs that we present. But if you’re in operations, you should have been trying to abstract away all of these stuff for the last 10 or 15 years. [00:12:14] BL: I 100% agree. Then also, think about other verticals. So 23 years ago, I did [inaudible 00:12:22] work. That was my job. But we learned how to program in C and C++ because we were on old Suns, not even Spark machines. We’re on the old Suns, and we wanted to write things in CVE and we wanted to write our own Window managers. That is what we’re doing right now, and that’s why you see like Mitchell Hashimoto with Vagrant and you’re seeing how we’re pushing this thing. We have barely scratched the surface of what we’re trying to do. For a lot of people who are just ops-minded, understand that being ops-minded is just the end. You have to be able to think outside of your boundaries so you can create the next big thing. [00:12:58] KH: Of you may not care about creating the next big thing. There are parts of my life where I just don’t care. For example, I pay Comcast to get internet access, and my ops involvement was going to BestBuy and buying a modem and screwing it into the wall, and I troubleshoot this thing every once in a while when someone in the household complains the internet is down. But that’s just far as I’m ever going to push the internet boundaries, right? I am not really interested in pushing that forward. I’m assuming others will, and I think that’s one thing in our industry where sometimes we believe that we all need to contribute to pushing things forward. Look, there’s a lot of value in being a great operations person. Just be welcomed to saying that what we operate will change overtime. [00:13:45] DC: Yeah, that’s fair. Very fair. For me, personally, I definitely identify as an operations person. I don’t consider it my life’s goal to create new work necessarily, but to expand on the work that has been identified and to help people understand the value of it. I find I sit in between two roles personally. One is to help figure out all of the different edges and pieces and parts of Kubernetes or some other thing in the ecosystem. Second, to educate others on those things, right? Take what I’ve learned and amplify it. Having the amplifying effect. [00:14:17] CC: One thing that I wanted to ask you, Kelsey is – I work on the Valero project, and that does back and recovery of Kubernetes clusters. Some people ask me, “Okay. So tell me about the people who are doing?” I’m like, “I don’t want to talk about that. That’s boring. I wanted to talk about the people who are not doing backups.” “Okay. Let’s talk about why you should be doing maybe thinking about that.” Well, anyway. I wonder if you get a lot of questions in the area of Kubernetes operations or cloud native in general, infrastructure, etc., that in the back of your mind you go, “That’s the wrong question or questions.” Do you get that? [00:14:54] KH: Yeah. So let’s use your backup example. So I think when I hear questions, at least it lets me know what people are thinking and where they’re at, and if I ask enough questions, I can kind of get a pulse in the trend of where the majority of the people are. Let’s take the backups questions. When I hear people say, “I want to back up my Kubernetes cluster.” I rewind the clock in my mind and say, “Wow! I remember when we used to backup Linux servers,” because we didn’t know what config files were on the disk. We didn’t know where processes are running. So we used to do these PS snapshots and we used to pile up the whole file system and store it somewhere so we can recover it. Remember Norton Ghost? You take a machine and ghost it so you can make it again. Then we said, “You know what? That’s a bad idea.” What we should be doing is having a tool that can make any machine look like the way we want it. Config management is boring. So we don’t back those up anymore. So when I hear that question I say, “Hmm, what is happening in the community that’s keeping people to ask these questions?” Because if I hear a bunch of questions that already have good answers, that means those answers aren’t visible enough and not enough people are sharing these ideas. That should be my next key note. Maybe we need to make sure that other people know that that is no longer a boring thing, even though it’s boring to me, it’s not boring to the industry in general. When I hear these question I kind of use it as a keeps me up-to-date, keeps me grounded. I hear stuff like how many Kubernetes clusters should I have? I don’t think there’s a best practice around that answer. It depends on how your company segregates things, or depends on how you understand Kubernetes. It depends on the way you think about things. But I know why they’re asking that question, is because Kubernetes presents itself as a solution to a much broader problem set than it really is. Kubernetes manages a group of machines typically backed by IS APIs. If you have that, that’s what it does. It doesn’t do everything else. It doesn’t tell you exactly how you should run your business. It doesn’t tell you how you should compartmentalize your product teams. Those decisions you have to make independently, and once you do, you can serialize those into Kubernetes. So that’s the way I think about those questions when I hear them, like, “Wow! Yeah, that is a crazy thing that you’re still asking this question six years later. But now I know why you’re asking that question.” [00:17:08] CC: That is such a great take on this, because, yes, it in the area of backup, people who are doing backup in my mind – Yeah, they should be independent of Kubernetes or not. But let’s talk about the people who are not doing backups. What motivates you to not do backups? Obviously, backups can be done in many different ways. But, yes. [00:17:30] BL: So think about it like this way. Some people don’t exercise, because exercise is tough and it’s hard, and it’s easier to sit on the couch and eat a bag of potato chips than exercise. It’s the same thing with backups. Well, backing up my Kubernetes cluster before Valero was so hard that I’d rather just invest brain cycles in figuring out how to make money. So that’s where people come from when it comes to hard things like backups. [00:17:52] KH: There’s a trust element too, right? Because we don’t know if the effort we’re putting in is worth it. When people do unit testing, a lot of times unit testing can be seen as a proactive activity, where you write unit tests to catch bugs in the future. Some people only write unit test when there’s a problem. Meaning, “Wow! There’s an odd things in a database. Maybe we should write a test to prove that our code is putting odd things. Fix the code, and now the test pass.” I think it’s really about trusting that the investment is worth it. I think when you start to think about backups – I’ve seen people back up a lot of stuff, like every day or every couple of hours, they’re backing up their database, but they’d never restored the database. Then when you read their root cause analysis, they’re like, “Everything was going fine until we tried to restore a 2 terabyte database over 100 meg link. Yeah, we never exercised that part.” [00:18:43] CC: That is very true. [00:18:44] DC: Another really fascinating thing to think about the backup piece is that especially like in the Kubernetes with Valero and stuff, we’re so used to having the conversation around stateless applications and being able to ensure that you can redeploy in the case of a failure. You’re not trying to actually get back to a known state the way that like a backup traditionally would. You’re just trying to get back to a running state. So there’s a bit of a dichotomy there I think for most folks. Maybe they’re not conceptualizing the need for having to deal with some of those stateful applications when they start trying to just think about how Valero fits into the puzzle, because they’ve been told over and over again, “This is about immutable infrastructure. This is about getting back to running. This is not about restoring some complex state.” So it’s kind of interesting. [00:19:30] MG: I think part of this is also that for the stateful services that why we do backups actually, things change a lot lately, right? With those new databases, scale out databases, cloud services. Thinking about backup also has changed in the new world of being cloud native, which for most of the people, that’s also a new learning experiment to understand how should I backup Kafka? It’s replicated, but can I backup it? What about etcd and all those things? Little different things than backing up a SQL database like more traditional system. So backup, I think as you become more complex, stays if needed for [inaudible 00:20:06]. [00:20:06] KH: Yeah. The case is what are you backing up and what do you hope to restore? So replication, global replication, like we do with like cloud storage and S3. The goal is to give some people 11 9s of reliability and replicate that data almost as many geographies as you can. So it’s almost like this active backup. You’re always backing up and restoring as a part of the system design versus it being an explicit action. Some people would say the type of replication we do for object stores is much closer to active restoring and backing up on a continuous basis versus a one-time checkpoint. [00:20:41] BL: Yeah. Just a little bit of a note, you can back up two terabytes over 100 meg link in like 44 hours and a half. So just putting out there, it’s possible. Just like two days. But you’re right. When it comes to backups, especially for like – Let’s say you’re doing MySQL or Postgres. These days, is it better to back it up or is it better to have a replica right next to it and then having like a 10 minute delayed replica right next to that and then replicating to Europe or Asia? Then constantly querying the data that you’re replicating. That’s still a backup. What I’m saying here is that we can change the way that we talk about it. Backup started as conventional as they used to be. There are definitely other ways to protect your data. [00:21:25] KH: Yeah. Also, I think the other part too around the backup thing is what is the price of data loss? When you take a backup, you’re saying, “I’m willing to lose this much data between the last backup and the next.” That cost is too high than backing up cannot be your primary mode of operation, because the cost of losing data is way too high, then replication becomes a complementing factor in the whole discussion of backups versus real-time replication and shorter times to recovery. I have a couple of questions. When should people not use Kubernetes? Do you know what I mean? I visit a lot of customers, I work with a lot of eng teams, and I am in the camp of Kubernetes is not for everything, right? That’s a very obvious thing to say. But some people don’t actually practice it that way. They’re trying to jam more and more into Kubernetes. So I love to get your insights on where do you see Kubernetes being like the wrong direction for some folks or workloads. [00:22:23] MG: I’m going to scratch this one from my question list to Kelsey. [00:22:26] KH: I’ll answer it too then. I’ll answer it after you will answer it. [00:22:29] MG: Okay. Who wants to go first? [00:22:30] BL: All right. I’ll go first. There are cases when I’m writing a piece of software where I don’t care about the service discovery. I don’t care about ingress. It’s just software that needs to run. When I’m running it locally, I don’t need it. If it’s simple enough where I could basically throw it into a VM through a CloudNet script, I think that is actually lower friction than Kubernetes if it’s simple. Now, but I’m also a little bit jaded here, because I work for the dude who created Kubernetes, and I’m paid to create solutions for Kubernetes, but I’m also really pragmatic about it as well. It’s all about effort for me. If I can do it faster in CloudNet, I will. [00:23:13] DC: For my part, I think that there’s – I have a couple of – I got follow on questions to this real quick. But I do think that if you’re not actively trying to develop a distributed systems, something where you’re actually making use of the primitives that Kubernetes provides, then that already would kind of be a red flag for me. If you’re building a monolithic application or if you’re in that place where you’re just rapidly iterating on a SaaS product and you’re just trying to like get as many commits on this thing until it works and like just really rapidly prototype or even create this thing. Maybe Kubernetes isn’t the right thing, because although we’ve come a long way in improving the tools that allow for that iteration, I certainly wouldn’t say that we’re like all the way there yet. [00:23:53] BL: I would debate you that, Duffy. [00:23:55] DC: All right. Then the other part of it is Kubernetes aside, I’m curious about the same question as it relates to containerization. Is it containerization the right thing for everyone, or have we made that pronouncement, for example? [00:24:08] KH: I’m going to jump in and answer on this one, because I definitely think we need a way to transport applications in some way, right? We used to do it on floppy disks. We used to do it on [inaudible 00:24:18]. I think the container to me I treat as a glorified [inaudible 00:24:23]. That’s the way I’ve been seeing it for years. Registry store them. They replace [inaudible 00:24:28]. Great. Now we kind of have a more maybe universal packaging format that can handle simple use cases, scratch containers where it’s just your binary, and the more complex use cases where you have to compose multiple layers to get the output, right? I think RPM spec files used to do something very similar when you start to build those thing in [inaudible 00:24:48], “All right. We got that piece.” Do people really need them? The thing I get weary about is when people believe they have to have Kubernetes on their laptop to build an app that will eventually deploy to Kubernetes, right? If we took that thinking about the cloud, then everyone would be trying to install open stack on their laptop just to build an app. Does that even make sense? Does that make sense in that context? Because you don’t need the entire cloud platform on your laptop to build an app that’s going to take a request and respond. I think Kubernetes people, I guess because it’s easier to put your on laptop, people believe that it needs to be there. So I think Kubernetes is overused, because people just don’t quite understand what it does. I think there’s a case where you don’t use Kubernetes, like I need to read a file from a bucket. Someone uploaded an XML file and my app is going to translate it into JSON. That’s it. In that case, this is where I think functions as a service, something like Cloud Run or even Heroku make a lot more sense to me because the operational complexity is kind of hitting within a provider and is linked almost like an SDK to the overall service, which is the object store, right? The compute part, I don’t want to make a big deal about, because it’s only there to process the file that got uploaded, right? It’s almost like a plug-in to an FTP server, if you will. Those are the cases where I start to see Kubernetes become less of a need, because I need a custom platform to do such an obvious operation. [00:26:16] DC: Those applications that require the primitives that Kubernetes provides, service discovery, the ability to define ingress in a normal way. When you’re actually starting to figure out how you’re going to platform that application with regard to those primitives, I do see the argument for having Kubernetes locally, because you’re going to be using those tools locally and remotely. You have some way of defining what that platforming requirement is. [00:26:40] KH: So let me pull on that thread. If you have an app that depends on another app, typically we used to just have a command line flag that says, “This app is over there.” Local host when it’s on my laptop. Some DNS name when it’s in the cluster, or a config file can satisfy that need. So the need for service discovery usually arises where you don’t know where things are. But if you’re literally on your laptop, you know where the things are. You don’t really have that problem. So when you bring that problem space to your laptop, I think you’re actually making things worse. I’ve seen people depend on Kubernetes service discovery for the app to work. Meaning, they just assume they can call a thing by name and they don’t support IPs, and ports. They don’t support anything, because they say, “Oh! No. No. No. You’ll always be running into Kubernetes.” You know what’s going to happen? In 5 or 10 years, we’re going to be talking like, “Oh my God! Do you remember when you used to use Kubernetes? Man! That legacy thing. I built my whole career porting apps away from Kubernetes to the next thing.” The number one thing we’ll talk about is where people lean too hard on service discovery, or people who built apps that taught to config maps directly. Why are you calling the Kubernetes API from your app? That’s not a good design. I think we got to be careful coupling ourselves too much to the infrastructure. [00:27:58] MG: It’s a fair point too. Two answers from my end, to your question. So one is I just build an appliance, which basically priced to bring an AWS Lambda experience to the Vsphere ecosystem. Because we don’t – Or actually my approach is that I don’t want any ops people who needs to do some one-off things, like connect this guy to another guy. I don’t want him to learn Kubernetes for that. It should be as simple as writing a function. So for that appliance, we had to decide how do we build it? Because it should be scalable. We might have some function as a service component running on there. So we looked around and we decided to put it on Kubernetes. So build the appliance as a traditional VM using Kubernetes on top. For me as a developer, it gave me a lot of capabilities, like self-healing, the self-healing capabilities. But it’s also a fair point that you wrote, Kelsey, about how much do we depend or write our applications being depend on those auxiliary features from Kubernetes? Like self-healing, restarts, for example. [00:28:55] KH: Well, in your case, you’re building a platform. I would hate for you to tell me that you rebuilt a Kubernetes-like thing just for that appliance. In your case, it’s a great use case. I think the problem that we have as platform builders is what happens when things start leaking up to the user? You tell a user all they have to care about is functions. Then they get some error saying, “Oh! There’s some Kubernetes security context that doesn’t work.” I’m like, “What the hell is Kubernetes?” That leakage is the problem, and I think that’s the part where we have to be careful, and it will take time, but we don’t start leaking the underlying platform making the original goal untrue. [00:29:31] MG: The point is where I wanted to throw this question back was now these functions being written as simple scripts, whatever, and the operators put in. They run on Kubernetes. Now, the operators don’t know that it runs in Kubernetes. But going back to your question, when should we not use Kubernetes. Is it me writing in a higher level abstraction like a function? Not using Kubernetes in first sense, because I don’t know actually I’m using it. But on the covers, I’m still using it. So it’s kind of an answer and not an answer to your question because – [00:29:58] KH: I’ve seen these single node appliances. There’s only one node, right? They’re only there to provide like email at a grocery store. You don’t have a distributed system. Now, what people want is the Kubernetes API, the way it deploys things, the way it swaps out a running container for the next one. We want that Kubernetes API. Today, the only way to get it is by essentially bringing up a whole Kubernetes cluster. I think the K3S project is trying to simplify that by re-implementing Kubernetes. No etcd, SQLite instead. A single binary that has everything. So I think when we start to say what is Kubernetes, there’s the implementation, which is a big distributed system. Then there’s the API. I think what’s going to happen is if you want the Kubernetes API, you’re going to have so many more choices on the implementation that makes better sense for the target platform. So if you’re building an appliance, you’re going to look at K3S. If you’re a cloud provider, you’re going to probably look something like what we see on GitHub, right? You’re going to modify and integrate it into your cloud platform. [00:31:00] BL: Of maybe what happened with Kubernetes over the next few years is what happened with the Linux API, or the API. Firecracker and gVisor did this, and WSL did this. We can basically swap out Linux from the backend because we can just get on with the calls. Maybe that will happen with Kubernetes as well. So maybe Kubernetes will become a standard where Kubernetes standard and Kubernetes implementation that we have right now. I don’t even know about that one. [00:31:30] KH: We’re starting to see it, right? When you say here is my pod, and we can just look at Fargate for EKS as an example. When you give them a pod, their implementation is definitely different than what most people are thinking about running these days, right? One pod per VM. Not using Virtual Kube. So they’ve taken that pod spec and tried to uphold its means. But the problem with that, you get leaks. For example, they don’t allow you to bind to a host 4. Well, the pod spec says you can bind to a host 4. Their implementation doesn’t allow you to do it, and we see the same problem with gVisor. It doesn’t implement all the system calls. You couldn’t run the Docker daemon on top of gVisor. It wouldn’t work. So I think as long as we don’t leak, because when we leak, then we start breaking stuff. [00:32:17] BL: So we’re doing the same thing with Project Pacific here at VMware, where this concept of a pod is actually a virtual machines that loops in like a tenth of a second. It’s pretty crazy how they’ve been able to figure that out. If we can get this right, that’s huge for us. That means we can move out of our appliance and we can create better things that actually work. I’m VMware specific. I’m on AWS and I want this name space. I can use Fargate and EKS. That’s actually a great idea. [00:32:45] MG: I remember this presentation, Kelsey, that you gave. I think two or three years ago. It might be three years, where you took the Kubernetes architecture and you removed the boxes and the only thing remaining was the API server. This is where it clicked to me as like, “This is right,” because I was focused on the scheduler. I wanted to understand the scheduler. But then you zoomed out or your stripped off all these pieces and the only thing remaining was the API server. This is where it clicked to me. It’s like [inaudible 00:33:09] or like the syscall interface. It’s basically my API to do some crazy things that I would have write on my own and assembly kind of something before I could even get started. As well the breakthrough moment for me, this specific presentation. [00:33:24] KH: I’m working on an analogy to talk about what’s happening with the Kubernetes API, and I haven’t refined it yet. But when the web came out, we had all of these HTTP verbs, put post git. We have a body. We have headers. You can extract that out of the whole web, the web browser plus the web server. If you have tracked out that one piece, the instead of building web package, we can build APIs and GraphQL, because we can reuse many of those mechanisms, and we just call that RESTful interfaces. Kubernetes is going through the same evolution, right? The first thing we built was this container orchestration tool. But if you look at the CRDs, the way we do RBAC, the way we think about the status field in a custom object, if you extract those components out, then you end up with this Kubernetes style APIs where we start to treat infrastructure not as code, but as data. That will be the restful moment for Kubernetes, right? The web, we extracted it out, then we have REST interfaces. In Kubernetes, once we extracted out, we’ll end up with this declarative way of describing maybe any system. But right now, the fine, or the perfect match is infrastructure. Infrastructure as data and using these CRDs to allow us to manipulate that data. So maybe you start with Helm, and then Helm gets piped into something like Customize. That then gets piped into a mission controller. That’s how Kubernetes actually works, and that data model to API development I think is going to be the unique thing that lasts longer then the Kubernetes container platform does. [00:34:56] CC: But if you’re talking about – Correct me if I misinterpret it, platform as data. Data to me is meant to be consumed, and I actually have been thinking since you said, “Oh, developers should not be developing apps that connect directly to Kubernetes,” or I think you said the Kubernetes API. Then I was thinking, “Wait. I’ve heard so many times people saying that that’s one great benefit of Kubernetes, that the apps have that access.” Now, if you see my confusion, please clarify it. [00:35:28] KH: Yeah. Right. I remember early on when we’re doing config maps, and a big debate about how config maps should be consumed by the average application. So one way could be let’s just make a configs map API and tell every developer that they need to import a Kubernetes library to call the API server, right? Now everybody’s app doesn’t work anymore on your laptop. So we were like, “Of course not.” What we should do is have config maps be injected into the file system. So that’s why you can actually describe a config map as a volume and say, “Take these key values from the config map and write them as normal files and inject them into the container so you can just read them from the file system. The other option also was environment variables. You can take a config map and translate them into an environment variables, and lastly, you can take those environment variables and put them into command line flags. So the whole point of that is all three of the most popular ways of configuring an app, environment variables, command line flags and files. Kubernetes molded itself into that world so that developers would never tightly couple themselves to the Kubernetes API. Now, let’s say you’re building a platform, like you’re building a workflow engine like Argo, or you’re building a network control plane like Istio. Of course, you should use a Kubernetes API. You’re building a platform on top of a platform. I would say that’s kind of the exception to the rule if you’re building a platform. But a general application that’s leveraging the platform, I really think you should stay away from the Kubernetes API directly. You shouldn’t be making sys calls directly [inaudible 00:37:04] of your runtime. The unsafe package in Go. Once you start doing that, Go can’t really help you anymore. You start pining yourself to specific threads. You’re going to be in a bad time. [00:37:15] CC: Right. Okay. I think I get it. But you can still use Kubernetes to decouple your app from the machine by using objects to generate those dependencies. [00:37:25] KH: Exactly. That was the whole benefit of Kub, and Docker even, saying, “You know what? Don’t worry too much more about C groups and namespaces. Don’t even try to do that yourself.” Because remember, there was a period of time where people were actually trying to build C groups and network namespaces into the runtime. There’s a bunch of like Ruby and Python projects that they were trying to containerize themselves within the runtime. Whoa! What are we doing? Having that second layer now with Containerd on C, we don’t have to implement that 10,000 times for every programming language. [00:37:56] DC: One of the things I want to come back to is your point that you’d made about the Kubernetes API being like one of the more attractive parts of the projects, and people needing that to kind of move forward in some of these projects, and I wonder if it’s more abstract than that. I wonder if it’s abstract enough to think about in terms of like a level triggered versus edge triggered stuff. Taking control theory, the control theory that basically makes Kubernetes such a stable project and applying that to software architecture rather than necessarily bringing the entire API with you. Perhaps, what you should take from this is the lessons that we’ve learned in developing Kubernetes and apply that to your software. [00:38:33] KH: Yeah. I have the fortunate time to spend some time with Mark Burgess. He came out with the Promise Theory, and the Promise Theory is the underpinnings of Puppet Chef, Ansible, CF Engine, and this idea that we would make promises about something and eventually convergent to that state. The problem was with Puppet Chef and Ansible, we’re basically doing this with shell scripts and Ruby. We were trying to write all of these if, and, else statements. When those didn’t work, what did you do? You made an exec statement at the bottom and then you’re like, “Oh! Just run some batch, and who knows what’s going to happen?” That early implementations of Promise Theory, we didn’t own the resource that we were making promises about. Anyone could go behind this and remove the user, or the user could have a different user ID on different systems but mean the same thing. In the Kubernetes world, we push a lot of that if, else statements into the controller. Now, we force the API not have any code. That’s the big difference. If you look at the Kubernetes API, you can’t do if statements. Terraform, you can do if statements. So you kind of fall into the imperative trap at the worst moments when you’re doing dry runs or something like that. It does a really good of it. Don’t get me wrong. So the Kubernetes API says, “You know what? We’re going to go all-in on this idea.” You have to change the controller first and then update the API. There is no escape patches in the API. So it forces a set of discipline that I think gets us closer to the promises, because we know that the controller owns everything. There’s no way to escape in the API itself. [00:40:07] DC: Exactly. That’s exactly what I was pushing for. [00:40:09] MG: I have a somewhat related question and I’m just not sure how to frame it correctly. So yesterday I saw a good talk by someone talking about protocols, like they somewhat forgotten power of protocols in the world of APIs. We got Swagger. We got API definitions. But he made the very easy point of if I give you an open, a close and a write and read method, or an API, you’d still don’t know how to call them in sequence and which one to call it off. This is same for [inaudible 00:40:36] library if you look at that. So I always have to force myself, “Should I do anything [inaudible 00:40:40] or I’m not leaking some stuff.” So I look it up. Versus on protocols, if you look at the RFC definitions, they are very, very precise and very plainly outlined of what you should do, how you should behave, how you should communicate between these systems. This is more of a communication and less about the actual implementation of an API. I still have to go through that talk again, and I’m going to put it in the show notes. But this kind of opened my mind again a little bit to think more about communication between systems and contracts and promises, as you said, Carlisia. Because we make so many assumptions in our code, especially as we have to write a lot of stuff very quickly, which I think will make things brittle overtime. [00:41:21] KH: So the gift and the curse of Kubernetes that it tries to do both all the time. For some things like a pod or a deployment, we all feel that. If I give any Kubernetes cluster a deployment object, I’m going to get back out running pod. This is what we all believe. But the thing is it may not necessarily run on the same kernel. It may not run on the same OS version. It may not even run on the same type of infrastructure, right? This is where I think Kubernetes ends up leaking some of those protocol promises. A deployment gets you a set of running pods. But then we dropdown to a point where you can actually do your own API and build your own protocol. I think you’re right. Istio is a protocol for thinking about service mesh, whereas Kubernetes provides the API for building such a protocol. [00:42:03] MG: Yeah, good point. [inaudible 00:42:04]. [00:42:04] DC: On the Fargate stuff, I thought was a really interesting article, or actually, an interesting project by [inaudible 00:42:10], and I want to give him a shout out on this, because I thought that was really interesting. He wrote an admission controller that leverages autoscaler, node affinity and pod affinity to effectively do the same thing so that whenever there is a new pod created, it will spin up a new machine and associate only that pod with that machine. I was like, “What a fascinating project.” But also just seeing this come up from like the whole Fargate ECS stuff. I was like – [00:42:34] KH: I think that’s the thread that virtual kubelet is pulling on, right? This idea that you can simplify autoscalling if you remove that layer, right? Because right now we’re trying to do this musical chairs dance, right? Like in a cloud. Imagine if someone gave you the hypervisor and told you you’re responsible for attaching hypervisor workers and the VMs. It would be a nightmare. We’re going to be talking about autoscalling the way we do in the cloud. I think Kubernetes moving into a world where a one pod per resource envelope. Today we call them VMs, but I think at some point we’re going to drop the VM and we would just call it a resource envelope. VMs, this is the way we think about that, Firecrackers. Like, “Hey, does it really need to be a complete VM?” Firecracker is saying, “No. It doesn’t. It just needs to be a resource envelope that allows you to run their particular workload.” [00:43:20] DC: Yeah. Same thing we’re doing here. It’s just enough VM to get you to the point where you can drop those containers on to it. [00:43:25] CC: Kelsey, question. Edge? Kubernetes on edge. Yes or no? [00:43:29] KH: Again, it’s just like compute on edge has been a topic for discussion forever. Problem is when some people say compute on edge, they mean like go buy some servers from Dell and put it in some building somewhere close to your property as you can. But then you have to go build the APIs to deploy it to that edge. What people want, and I don’t know how far off it is, but Kubernetes has set the bar so high that the Kubernetes API comes with a way to low balance, attach storage, all of these things by just writing a few YAML files. What I hear people saying is I want that close to my data center or store as possible. When you say Kubernetes on the edge, that’s what they’re saying, is like, “But we currently have one at edge. It’s not enough.” We’ve been providing edge for a very longtime. Open stack was – Remember open stack? Oh! We’re going to do open stack on the edge. But now you’re a pseudo cloud provider without the APIs. I think what Kubernetes is bringing to the table is that we have to have a default low balancer. We have to have a default block store. We have to have a default everything and on or for to mean Kubernetes like it does today centralized. [00:44:31] BL: Well, Doors have been doing this forever in some form or another. 20 years ago I worked for a Duty Free place, and literally traveled all over the world replacing point of sale. You might think of point of sales as a cash register. There was a computer in the back and it was RS-232 links from the cash register to the computer in the back. Then there was dial-up, or [inaudible 00:44:53] line to our central thing. We’ve been doing edge for a long time, but now we can do edge. The central facility can actually manage the compute infrastructure. All they care about is basically CPU and memory and network storage now, and it’s a lot more flexible. The surety is long, but I think we’re going to do it. It’s going to happen, and I think we’re almost right – People are definitely experimenting. [00:45:16] KH: You know what, Carlisia? You know what’s interesting now though? I was watching the Reinvent announcement. Verizon is starting to allow these edge components to leverage 5G for the last mile, and that’s something game-changer, because most people are very skeptical about 5G being able to provide the same coverage as 4G because of the wavelength and point-to-point, all of these things. But for edge, this thing is a game-changer. Higher bandwidth, but shorter distance. This is exactly what edge want, right? Now you don’t have to dig up the ground and run fiber from point-to-point. So if you could buy in these Kubernetes APIs, plus concepts like 5G, and get in that closer to people, yeah, I think that’s going to change the way we think about regions and zones. That kind of goes away. We’re going to move closer to CDNs, like Cloudflare has been experimenting with their worker technology. [00:46:09] DC: On the edge stuff, I think that there’s also an interesting dichotomy happening, right? There’s a definition of edge that we referred to, which is storage stuff and one that you’re alluding to, which is that there may be like some way of actually having some edge capability and a point of presence in a 5G tower or some point with that. In some cases, edge means data gravity. You’re actually taking a bunch of data from sensors and you’re trying to store it in a place where you don’t have to pay the cost of moving all of the data form one point to another where you can actually centralize compute. So in those edge cases, you’re actually willing to invest in a high-end compute to allow for the manipulation of that data where that data lake is so that you can afford to move it into some centralized location later. But I think that that whole space is so complex right now, because there are so many different definitions and so many different levels of constraints that you have to solve for under one umbrella term, which is the edge. [00:47:04] KH: I think Bryan was pulling on that with the POS stuff, right? Because instead of you going to go buy your own cash registry and gluing everything together, that whole space got so optimized that you can just buy a square terminal. Plug it on some Wi-Fi and then there you go, right? You now have that thing. So once we start to do this for like ML capabilities, security capabilities, I think you’re going to see that POS-like thing expand and that computer get a little bit more robust to do exactly what you’re saying, right? Keep the data local. Maybe you ship models to that thing so that it can get smarter overtime, and then upload the data from various stores overtime. [00:47:40] DC: Yup. [00:47:40] MG: One last question from my end. Switching gears a bit, if allow it. KubeCon. I left KubeCon with some mixed feelings this years. But my perspective is different, because I’m not the typical, one of the 12,000 people, because most of them were new comers actually. So I looked at them and I asked myself, “If I would be new to this huge big world of CNCF and Kubernetes and all these stuff, what would I take from that?” I would be confused. Confused like how from [inaudible 00:48:10] talks, which make it sound like it’s so complex to run all these things through the keynotes, which seems to be like just a lineup of different projects that I all have to get through and install and run. I was missing some perspective and some clarity from KubeCon this year, especially for new comers. Because I’m afraid, if we don’t retain them, attract them, and maybe make them contributors, because that’s another big problem. I’m afraid that we’ll lose our base that is using Kubernetes. [00:48:39] BL: Before Kelsey says anything, and Kelsey was a Kub contrary before I was, but I was a Kub contrary this time, and I can tell you exactly why everything is like it is. Well, fortunately and unfortunately, this cloud native community is huge now. There’s lots of money. There are lots of people. There are lots of interests. If we went back to KubeCon when it was in San Francisco years ago, or even like the first Seattle one, that was a community event. We could make the event for the community. Now, there’s community. The people who are creating the products. There’s the end users, the people who are consuming the products, and there are these big corporations and companies, people who are actually financing this whole entire thing. We actually have to balance all three of those. As a person who just wants to learn, what are you trying to learn from? Are you learning from the consumption piece? Are you learning to be a vendor? Are you learning to be a contributor? We have to think about that. At a certain point, that’s good for Kubernetes. That means that we’ve been able to do the whole chasm thing. We’ve cross over to chasm. This thing is real. It’s big. It’s going to make a lot of people a lot of money one day. But I do see the issue for the person who’s trying to come in and say, “What do I do now?” Well, unfortunately, it’s like anything else. Where do you start? Well, you got to take it all in. So you need to figure out where you want to be. I’m not going to be the person that’s going to tell you, “Well, go do a sig.” That’s not it. What I want to tell you is like anything else that we’d have to learn is real hard, whether it’s a programming language or a new technique. Figure out where you want to be and you’re going to have to do some research. Then hopefully you can contribute. I’m sure Kelsey has opinions on this as well. [00:50:19] KH: I think Brian is right. I mean, I think it’s just like a pyramid happening. A the very bottom, we’re new. We need to get everybody together in one space and it becomes more of a tradeshow, like an introductory, like a tasting, right? When you’re hungry and you go and just taste everything. Then when you figure out what you want, then that will be your focus, and that’s going to change every year for a lot of people. Some people go from consumer to contributor, and they’re going to want something out of the conference. They’re only going to want to go to the contributor day and maybe some of the deep-dive technical tracks. You’re trying to serve everybody in two or three days. So you’re going to start to have like everything pulling for your attention. I think what you got to do is commit. If you go and you’re a contributor, or you’re someone what’s building on top, you may have to find a separate event to kind of go with it, right? Someone told me, “Hey, when you go to all of these conferences, make sure you don’t forget to invest in the one-on-one time.” Me going to Oslo and spending an evening with Mark Burgess and really talk about Promise Theory outside of competing for attention with the rest of the conference. When I go, I’d like to meet new people. Sit down with them. Out of the 12,000 people, I call it a win if I can meet three new people that I’ve never met before. You know what? I’ll do a follow-up hangout with them to go deeper in some areas. So I think it’s more of a catch all. It’s definitely has a tradeshow feel now, because it’s big and there’s a lot of money and opportunity involved. But at the same time, you got to know that, “Hey, you got to go and seek out.” You go to Spotif

For this special episode, we are joined by Joe Beda who is currently Principal Engineer at VMware. He is also one of the founders of Kubernetes from his days at Google! We use this open table discussion to look at a bunch of exciting topics from Joe's past, present, and future. He shares some of the invaluable lessons he has learned and offers some great tips and concepts from his vast experience building platforms over the years. We also talk about personal things like stress management, avoiding burnout and what is keeping him up at night with excitement and confusion! Large portions of the show are obviously spent discussion different aspects and questions about Kubernetes, including its relationship with etcd and Docker, its reputation as a very complex platform and Joe's thoughts for investing in the space. Joe opens up on some interesting new developments in the tech world and his wide-ranging knowledge is so insightful and measured, you are not going to want to miss this! Join us today, for this great episode! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Special guest: Joe Beda Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: A quick history of Joe and his work at Google on Kubernetes. The one thing that Joe thinks sometimes gets lost in translation on these topics. Lessons that Joe has learned in the different companies where he has worked. How Joe manages mental stress and maintains enough energy for all his commitments. Reflections on Kubernetes relationship with and usage of etcd. Is Kubernetes supposed to be complex? Why are people so divided about it? Joe's experience as a platform builder and the most important lessons he has learned. Thoughts for venture capitalists looking to invest in the Kubernetes space. Joe's thoughts on a few different recent developments in the tech world. The relationship and between Kubernetes and Docker and possible ramifications of this. The tech that is most exciting and alien to Joe at the moment! Quotes: “These things are all interrelated. At a certain point, the technology and the business and career and work-life – all those things really impact each other.” — @jbeda [0:03:41] “I think one of the things that I enjoy is actually to be able to look at things from all those various different angles and try and find a good path forward.” — @jbeda [0:04:19] “It turns out that as you bounced around the industry a little bit, there's actually probably more alike than there is different.” — @jbeda [0:06:16] “What are the things that people can do now that they couldn't do pre-Kubernetes? Those are the things where we're going to see the explosion of growth.” — @jbeda [0:32:40] “You can have the most beautiful technology, if you can't tell the human story about it, about what it does for folks, then nobody will care.” — @jbeda [0:33:27] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/Joe Beda — https://www.linkedin.com/in/jbedaEighty Percent — https://www.eightypercent.net/Heptio — https://heptio.cloud.vmware.com/Craig McLuckie — https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/kubernetes-co-founder-craig-mcluckie-is-as-tired-of-talking-about-kubernetes-as-you-are/Brendan Burns — https://thenewstack.io/kubernetes-co-creator-brendan-burns-on-what-comes-next/Microsoft — https://www.microsoft.comKubeCon — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2019/re:Invent — https://reinvent.awsevents.com/etcd — https://etcd.io/CosmosDB — https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cosmos-db/introductionRancher — https://rancher.com/PostgresSQL — https://www.postgresql.org/Linux — https://www.linux.org/Babel — https://babeljs.io/React — https://reactjs.org/Hacker News — https://news.ycombinator.com/BigTable — https://cloud.google.com/bigtable/Cassandra — http://cassandra.apache.org/MapReduce — https://www.ibm.com/analytics/hadoop/mapreduceHadoop — https://hadoop.apache.org/Borg — https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kubernetes/Tesla — https://www.tesla.com/Thomas Edison — https://www.biography.com/inventor/thomas-edisonNetscape — https://isp.netscape.com/Internet Explorer — https://internet-explorer-9-vista-32.en.softonic.com/Microsoft Office — https://www.office.comVB — https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/get-started/visual-basic/tutorial-console?view=vs-2019Docker — https://www.docker.com/Uber — https://www.uber.comLyft — https://www.lyft.com/Airbnb — https://www.airbnb.com/Chromebook — https://www.google.com/chromebook/Harbour — https://harbour.github.io/Demoscene — https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5wgp7/who-killed-the-american-demoscene-synchrony-demoparty Transcript: BONUS EPISODE 001 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.9] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets. We have a new name. This is our first episode with a new name. Don’t want to go much into it, other than we had to change from The Kubelets to The Podlets, because the Kubelets conflicts with an existing project and we’ve thought it was just better to change. The show, the concept, the host, everything stays the same. I am super excited today, because we have a special guest, Joe Beda and Bryan Liles, Michael Gasch. Joe, just give us a brief introduction. The other hosts have been on the show before. People should know about them. Everybody should know about you too, but there's always newcomers in the space, so give us a little bit of a background. [0:01:29.4] JB: Yeah, sure. I'm Joe Beda. I was one of the founders of Kubernetes back when I was at Google, along with Craig McLuckie and Brendan Burns, with a bunch of other folks joining on soon after. I'm currently Principal Engineer at VMware, helping to cover all things Kubernetes and Tanzu related across the company. I came into VMware via the acquisition of Heptio, where Bryan's wearing the shirt today. Left Google, did that with Craig for about two years. Then it's almost a full year here at VMware. We're at 11 months officially as of two days ago. Yeah, really excited to be here. [0:02:12.0] CC: Yeah, I am so excited. Your name is Joe Beda. I always say Joe Beda. [0:02:16.8] JB: You know what? It's four letters and it's easy – it's amazing how many different ways there are to pronounce it. I don't get picky about it. [0:02:23.4] CC: Okay, cool. Well, today I learned. I am very excited about this show, because basically, I get to ask you anything I want. [0:02:35.9] JB: I’ll do my best to answer. [0:02:37.9] CC: Yeah. You can always not answer. There are so many interviews of you out there on YouTube, podcasts. We are going to try to do something different. Let me fire the first question I have for you. When people interview you, they ask you yeah, the usual questions, the questions that are very useful for the community. I want to ask you is this, what are people asking you that you think are the wrong questions? [0:03:08.5] JB: I don't think there's any bad questions like this. I think that there's a ton of interest that's when we're talking about technical stuff at different parts of the Kubernetes stack, I think that there's a lot of business context around the container ecosystem and the companies and around to forming Heptio, all that. A lot of times, I'll have discussions around career and what led me to where I'm at now. I think those are all a lot of really interesting things to talk about all around all that. The one thing that I think is doesn't always come across is these things are all interrelated. At a certain point, the technology and the business and career and work-life – all those things really impact each other. I think it's a mistake to try and take these things in isolation. There's a ton of lead over. I think one of the things that we tried to do at Heptio, and I think we did a good job is recognized that for anybody senior enough inside of any organization, they really have to be able to play all roles, right? At a certain point, everybody is as a business person, fundamentally, in terms of actually moving the ball forward for the company, for the business as a whole. Yeah. I think one of the things that I enjoy is actually to be able to look at things from all those various different angles and try and find a good path forward. [0:04:28.7] BL: All right. Taking that, so you've gone from big co to big co, to VC to small co to big co. What does that unique experience taught you and what can you share with us? [0:04:45.5] JB: Bryan, you know my resume better than I do apparently. I started my career at Microsoft and cut my teeth working on Internet Explorer and doing client side stuff there. I then went to Google in the office up here in Seattle. It was actually in Kirkland, this little hole-in-the-wall, temporary office, preemie work type of thing. I’m thinking, “Hey, I want to do some server-side stuff.” Worked on Google Talk, worked on ads, worked on cloud, started Kubernetes, was a little burned out. Took some time off, goofed off. Did this entrepreneur-in-residence thing for VC and then started Heptio and then sold the VMware. [0:05:23.7] BL: When you're in a big company, especially when you're more junior, it's easy to get caught up in playing the game inside of that company. When I say the game, what I mean is that there are measures of success within big companies and there are ways to advance see approval, see rewards that are all very specific to that company. I think the culture of a company is really defined by what are the parameters and what are the successes, the success factors for getting ahead inside of each of those different companies. I think a lot of times, especially when as a Microsoft straight out at college, I did a couple internships at Microsoft and then joining – leaving Microsoft that first time was actually really, really difficult because there is this fear of like, “Oh, my God. Everything's going to be super different.” It turns out that as you bounced around the industry a little bit, there's actually probably more alike than there is different. The biggest difference I think between large company and small company is really, and I'll throw out some science analogies here. I think, oftentimes organizations are a little bit like the ideal gas law. Okay, maybe going past y'all, but this is – PV = nRT. Pressure times volume equals number of molecules times temperature and the R is a constant. The idea here is that this is an equation where as you add more molecules to a constrained space, that will actually change the temperature and the pressure and these things all rise. What happens is inside of a large company, you end up with so many people within a constrained space in terms of the product space. When you add more people to the organization, or when you're looking to get ahead, it feels very zero-sum. It very much feels like, “Hey, for me to advance, somebody else has to lose.” That's not how the real world works, but oftentimes that's how it feels inside of the big company, is that if it feels zero-sum like that. The liberating thing for being at a startup and I think why so many people get addicted to working at startups is that startups are fundamentally not zero-sum. Everybody succeeds and fails together. When a new person shows up, your thought process is naturally like, “Awesome, we got more cylinders in the engine. We’re going to go faster,” which is not always the case inside of a big company. Now, I think as you get senior enough, all of a sudden these things changes, because you're not just operating within the confines of that company. You're actually again, playing a role in the business, you're looking at the ecosystem, you're looking at the community, you're looking at the competitive landscape and that's where you have your eye on the ball and that's what defines success for you, not the internal company metrics, but really the business metrics is what defines success for you. The thing that I'm trying to do, here at VMware now is as we do Tanzu is make sure that we recognize the unbounded possibilities in front of us inside of this world, make sure that we actually focus our energy on serving customers. In doing so, out-compete others in the market. It's not a zero-sum game, it's not something where as we bring more folks on that we feel we're competing with them. That's a little rambling of an answer. I don't know if that links together for you, Bryan. [0:08:41.8] BL: No, no. That was pretty good. [0:08:44.1] JB: Thanks. [0:08:46.6] MG: Joe, that's probably going to be a context switch now. You touched on the time when you went through the burnout phase. Then last week, I think you put out a tweet on there's so much stuff going on, which tweet I'm talking about. Yeah. In the Kubernetes community, you’re a rock star. At VMware, you're already a rock star being on stage at VMware shaking hands with Pat. I mean, there's so many people, so many e-mails, so many slacks, whatever that you get every day, but still I feel you are able to keep the balance, stay grounded and always have a chat, even though sometimes I don't want to approach you, but sometimes I do when I have some crazy questions maybe. Still you’re not pushing people away. How do you manage with mental stress preventing another burnout? What is the secret sauce here? Because I feel I need to work on that. [0:09:37.4] JB: Well, I mean it's hard. The tweet that I put out was last week I was coming back from Barcelona and tired of travel. I'm looking forward to right now, we're recording this just before KubeCon. Then after KubeCon, planning to go to re:Invent in Vegas, which is just a social denial-of-service. It's just overwhelming being with that. I was tired of traveling. I posted something and came across a little stronger than I wanted to. That I just hate people, right? I was at that point where it's just you're traveling and you just don't want to deal with anybody and every little thing is really bugging you and annoying you. I think burnout is an interesting thing. For me and I think there's different causes for different folks. Number one is that it's always fascinating when you start a new job, your calendar is empty, your responsibilities are low. Then as you are successful and you integrate yourself into the organization, all of a sudden you find that you have more work than you have time to do. Then you hit this point where you try and like, “I'm just going to keep doing it. I'm going to power through.” Then you finally hit this point where you're like, “This is just not humanly possible.” Then you go into a triage mode and then you have to decide what's important. I know that there's more to be done than I can do. I have to be very thoughtful about prioritizing what I'm doing. There's a lot of techniques that you can bring to bear there. Being explicit about what your goals are and what your priorities are, writing those things down, whether it's an OKR process, or whether it's just here's the my top three things that I'm focusing on. Making sure that those things are purposefully meaningful to you, right? Understanding the difference between urgent and important, which these are business booky type of things, but it's this idea of there are things that feel they have to get done right now and then there are things that are long-term important. If you're not thoughtful about how you do things, you spend all your time doing the urgent things, but you never get to the stuff that's the actually long-term important. That's a really easy trap to get yourself into. Finding ways to delegate to folks is really, really helpful here, in terms of empowering others, trusting them. It's hard to let go sometimes, but I think being able to set the stage for other people to be successful is really empowering. Then just recognizing it's not all going to get done and that's okay. You can't hold yourself to expect that. Now with respect to burnout, for me, the biggest driver for burnout in my career has been when I felt personal responsibility over something, but I have been had the tools, or the authority, or the ability to impact it.When you feel in your bones ownership over something, but yet you can't actually really own it, that is what causes burnout for me. I think there are studies talking about how the worst job is middle management. I think it's not being the CEO. It's not being new to the organization, being junior. It's actually being stuck in the middle. Because you're given a certain amount of responsibility, but you aren't always given the tools necessary to be able to drive that. Whereas the folks at the top, oftentimes they don't have those constraints, so they actually own stuff and have agency to be able to take care of it. I think when you're starting on more junior in the organization, the scope of ownership that you feel is relatively minor. That being stuck in the middle is the biggest driver for me for burnout. A big part of that is just recognizing that sometimes you have to take a step back and personally divest that feeling of ownership when really it's not yours to own. I'll give you an example, is that I started Google Compute Engine at Google, which is arguably the foundational cloud service for GCP. As it grew, as it became more important to Google, as it got reorged, more or more of the leadership and responsibilities and decision-making, I’m up here in Seattle, move down the mountain view, a lot of that stuff was focused at had been in the cloud market, but then at Google for 10 or 15 years coming in and they're like, “Okay, that's cute. We got it from here,” right? That was a case where it was my thing. I felt a lot of ownership over it. It was clear after a certain amount of time, hey, you know what? I just work here. I'm just doing my job and I do what I do, but really it’s these other folks that are driving the bus. That's a painful transition to actually go from that feeling of ownership to I just work here. That I think is one of the reasons why oftentimes, people leave the companies. I think that was one of the big drivers for why I ended up leaving Google, was that lack of agency to be able to impact things that I cared about quite a bit. [0:13:59.8] CC: I think that's one reason why – well, I think that working in the companies where things are moving fast, because they have a very clear, very worthwhile goal provides you the opportunity to just have so much work that you have to say no to a lot of things like where you were saying, and also take ownership of pieces of that work, because there's more work to go around than people to do it. For example, since Heptio and VM – okay, I’m plugging. This is a big plug for VMware I guess, but it definitely is a place that's moving fast. It's not crazy. It's reasonable, because everybody, pretty much, wherever one of us grown up. There is so much to do and people are glad when you take ownership of things. That really for me is a big source of work satisfaction. [0:14:51.2] JB: Yeah. I think it's that zero-sum versus positive-sum game. I think that when you – there's a lot more room for you to actually feel that ownership, have that agency, have that responsibility when you're in a positive-sum environment, versus a zero-sum environment. [0:15:04.9] BL: All right, so now I want to ask your technical question. [0:15:08.1] JB: All right. [0:15:09.5] BL: Not a really hard one. Just more of how you think about this. Kubernetes is five and almost five and a half years old. One of the key components of Kubernetes is etcd. Now knowing what we know now and 2019 with Kubernetes have you used etcd as its key store? Or would you have gone another direction? [0:15:32.1] JB: I think etcd is a good fit. The truth of the matter is that we didn't give that decision as much thought as we probably should have early on. We saw that it was relatively easy to stand up and get going with. At least on paper, it had the qualities that we were looking for, so we started building with it and then just ran with it. Something like ZooKeeper was also something we could have taken, but the operational overhead at the time of ZooKeeper was very different from etcd. I think we could have gone in the direction of them and this is why [inaudible 0:15:58.5] for a lot of their tools, where they actually build the data store into the tool in a native way. I think that can lead in some ways to a simpler getting started experience, because there's just one thing to boot up, but also it's more monolithic from a backup, maintenance, recovery type of thing. The one thing that I think we probably should have done there in retrospect is to try and create a little bit more of an arm's length relationship in Kubernetes and etcd. In terms of having some cleaner interfaces, some more contractor and stuff, so that we could have actually swapped something else out. There's folks that are doing it, so it's not impossible, but it's definitely not something that's easy to do, or well-supported. I think that that's probably the thing that I wouldn't change in that space. Another thing we might want to change, I think it might have been good to be more explicit about being able to actually shard things out, so that you could have multiple data stores for multiple resources and actually find a way to horizontally scale. Now we do that with events, because we were writing events into etcd and that's just a totally different stream of data, but everything else right now – I think now there's room to do this into the future. I think we've been able to push etcd vertically up until now. There will come a time where we need to find ways to shard that thing up horizontally. [0:17:12.0] CC: Is it possible though to use a different data store than etcd for Kubernetes? [0:17:18.4] JB: The things that I'm aware of here and there may be more and I may not be a 100% up to date, is I do know that the Azure folks created a proxy layer that speaks to the etcd protocol, but that is actually implemented on the backend using CosmoDB. That approach there was to essentially create a translation layer. Then Rancher created this project, which is a little bit if you've – been added a bit of a fork of Kubernetes, where they're I believe using PostgresSQL as the database for Kubernetes. I haven't looked to see exactly how they ended up swapping that in. My guess is that there's some chewing gum and bailing wiring and it's quite a bit of effort for each version upgrade to be able to actually adapt that moving forward. Don't know for sure. I haven't looked deeply. [0:18:06.0] CC: Okay. Now I would love to philosophize a little bit, or maybe a lot about Kubernetes. In the spirit of thinking of different questions to ask, so I had a bunch of questions and then I was thinking, “How could I ask this question in a different way?” Maybe this is not the right “question.” Here is the way I came up with this question. We’re so divided out there. One camp loves Kubernetes, another camp, "So hard, so complicated, it’s so complex. Why even bother with it? I don't understand why people are using this." Basically, there is that sentiment that Kubernetes is complicated. I don't think anybody would refute that. Now is that even the right way to talk about Kubernetes? Is it even not supposed to be complicated? I mean, what kind of a tool is it that we are thinking, it should just work, it should be just be super simple. Is it true that it should be a super simple tool to use? [0:19:09.4] JB: I mean, that's a loaded question [inaudible]. Let me just first say that number one, if people are complaining, I mean, I'm stealing this from Tim [inaudible], who I think this is the way he takes some of these things in stride. If people are complaining, then you're relevant, right? If nobody is complaining, then nobody cares about what you're doing. I think that it's a good thing that folks are taking a critical look at Kubernetes. That means that they're taking a look at it, right? For five years in, Kubernetes is on an upswing. That's not going to necessarily last forever. I think we have work to do to continually earn Kubernetes’s place in the technology stack over time. Now that being said, Kubernetes is a super, super flexible tool. It can do so many things in so many different situations. It's used from everything from in retail stores across the tens of thousands of stores, any type of solutions. People are looking at it for telco, 5G. People are looking at it to even running it inside cars, which scares me, right? Then all the way up to folks like at CERN using it to do data analytics for hiring and physics, right? The technology that I look at that's probably most comparable to that is something like Linux. Linux is actually scalable from everything from a phone, all the way up to an IBM mainframe, but it's not easy, right? I mean, to be able to adapt it across all that things, you have to essentially download the kernel type, make config and then answer 5,000 questions, right, for those who haven't done that. It's not an easy thing to do. I think that a lot of times, people might be looking at Kubernetes at the wrong level to be able to say this should be simple. Nobody looks at the Linux kernel that you get from git cloning, Linux’s fork and compiling it and saying, “Yeah, this is too hard.” Of course it's hard. It's the Linux kernel. You expect that you're going to have a curated experience if you want something easy, right? Whether that be an Android phone or Ubuntu or what have you. I think to some degree, we're still in the early days where people are dealing with it perhaps at to raw level, versus actually dealing with it in a more opinionated way. Now I think the fascinating thing for Kubernetes is that it provides a lot of the extension points and patterns, so that we don't know exactly what those higher-level easier-to-use abstractions are going to look like, but we know, or at least we're pretty confident that we have the right tools and the right environment to be able to experiment our way there. I think we're not there yet, but we're set up for success. That's the first thing. The second thing is that Kubernetes introduces a whole bunch of different concepts and ideas and these things are different and uncomfortable for folks. It's hard to learn new things. It's hard for me to learn new things and it's hard for everybody to learn new things. When you compare Kubernetes to say, getting started with the modern front-end web development stack, with things like Babel and React and how do you deploy this and what are all these different options and it changes on a weekly basis. There's a hell of a lot in common actually between these two ecosystems. They're both really hard, they both introduce all these new concepts and you have to be embedded in it to really get it. Now that being said, if you just wanted take raw JavaScript, or jQuery and have at it, you can do it and you'll see on Hacker News articles every once in a while where people are like, “Hey, I've programmed my site with jQuery and it's just fine. I don't need all this new stuff,” right? Just like you'll see folks saying like, “I just SSH’d in and actually ran some stuff and it works fine. I don't need all this Kubernetes stuff.” If that works for you, that's great. Kubernetes doesn't have to solve every problem for every person. Then the next thing is that I think that there's a lot of people who've been solving these problems again and again and again and again, but they've been solving them in their own way. It's not uncommon when you look at back-end systems, to join a company, look at what they've built and found that it's a complicated, bespoke system of chewing gum and baling wire with maybe a little bit Ansible, maybe a little bit of Puppets and bash. Everybody has built their own, complex, overwrought system to do a lot of the stuff that Kubernetes does. I think one of the values that we see here is that these things are complex, unique complex to do it, but shared complexity is more valuable than personal complexity. If we can agree on some of these concepts, then that's something that can be leveraged widely and it will fade to the background over time, versus having everybody invent their own complex system every time they need to solve these problems. With that all said, we got a ton of work to do. It's not like we're done here and I'm not going to actually sit here and say Kubernetes is easy, or that every complex thing is absolutely necessary and that we can't find ways to simplify it. We clearly can. I just think that when folks say, “Hey, I just want this to be easy." I think they're being a little bit too naïve, because it's a very difficult problem domain. [0:23:51.9] BL: I'd like to add on to that. I think about this a lot as well. Something that Joe said to me few years back, where Kubernetes is the platform for creating platforms, it is very applicable here. Where we are looking at as an industry, we need to stop looking at Kubernetes as some estimation. Your destination is really running your applications that give you pleasure, or make your business money. Kubernetes is a tool to enable us to think about our applications more, rather than the underlying ecosystem. We don't think about servers. We want to think about storage and networking, even things like finding things in your cluster. You don't think about that. Kubernetes gives it to you. If we start thinking about Kubernetes as a way to enable us to do better things, we can go back to what Joe said about Linux. Back whenever I started using Linux in the mid-90s, guess what? We compiled it. Make them big. That stuff was hard and it was slow. Now think about this, in my office I have three different Linux distributions running. You know what? I don't even think about it anymore. I don't think about configuring X. I don't think about anything. One thing that from Kubernetes is going to grow is it's going to – we're going to figure out these problems and it's going to allow us to think of these other crazy things, which is going to push the industry further. Think maybe 20 years from now if we're still running Kubernetes, who cares? It's just going to be there. We're going to think about some other problem and it could be amazing. This is good times. [0:25:18.2] JB: At one point. Sorry, the dog’s going to bark here. I mean, at one point people cared about some of the BIOS that they were running on our computers, right? That was something that you stressed out about. I mean, back in the bad old days when I was doing DOS gaming and you're like, “Oh, well this BIOS is incompatible with the –” IRQ's and all that. It's just background now. [0:25:36.7] CC: Yeah, I think about this too as a developer. I might have mentioned this before in this podcast. I have never gone from one job to another job and had to use the same deployment system. Every single job I've ever had, the deployment system is completely different, completely different set of tooling and completely different process. Just being able to walk out from one job to another job and be able to use the same platform for deployment, it must be amazing. On the flip side, being able to hire people that will join your organization already know how your deployment works, that has value in itself. It's a huge value that I don't think people talk about enough. [0:26:25.5] JB: Well honestly, this was one of the motivations for creating Kubernetes, is that I looked around Google early on and Google is really good at importing open source, circa 2000, right? This is like, “Hey, you want to use libpng, or you want to use this library, or whatever.” That was the type of open source that Google is really, really good at using. Then Google did things, like say release the Big Table paper. Then somebody went through and then created Cassandra out of it. Maybe there's some ideas in Cassandra that actually build on top of big table, or you're looking at MapReduce versus Hadoop. All of a sudden, you found that these things diverge and Google had zero ability to actually import open source, circa 2010, right? It could not back import systems, because the operational characteristics of these things were solely alien when compared to something like Borg. You see this also, like we would acquire companies and it would take those companies way too long to be able to essentially re-platform themselves on top of Borg, because it was just so different. This is one of the reasons, honestly, why we ended up doing something like GCE is to actually have a platform that was actually more familiar from acquisition. It's one of the reasons we did it. Then also introducing Kubernetes, it's not Borg. It's a cousin of Borg inside of Google. For those who don't know, Borg is the container system that’s been in production at Google for probably 15 years now, and the spiritual grandfather to Kubernetes in a lot of ways. A lot of the ideas that you learn from Kubernetes are applicable to Borg. It's not nearly as big a leap for people to actually change between them, as it was before, Kubernetes was out there. [0:27:58.6] MG: Joe, I got a similar question, because it seems to be like you're a platform builder. You've worked on GCE, Kubernetes obviously. If you would be talking to another platform architect or builder, what would be something that you would recommend to them based on your experiences? What is a key ingredient, technically speaking of a platform that you should be building today, or the main thing, or the lesson learned that you had from building those platforms, like technical advice, if you will? [0:28:26.8] JB: I mean, that's a really good question. I think in my mind, the mark of a good platform is when people can use it to do things that you hadn't imagined when you were building it, right? The goal here is that you want a platform to be a force multiplier. You wanted to enable people to do amazing things. You compare, again the Linux kernel, even something as simple as our electrical grid, right? The folks who established those standards, God knows how long ago, right? A 150 years ago or whenever, the whole Tesla versus Thomas Edison, [inaudible]. Nobody had any idea the long-term impact that would have on society over time. I think that's the definition of a successful platform in my mind. You got to keep that in mind, right? I think that for me, a lot of times people design for the first five minutes at the expense of the next five years. I've seen in a lot of times where you design for hey, I'm getting a presentation. I want to be able to fit something amazing on one slot. You do it, but then all of a sudden somebody wants to do something different. They want to go off course, they want to go off the rails, they want to actually experiment and the thing is just brittle. It's like, “Hey, it does this. It doesn't do anything else. Do you want to do something else? Sorry, this isn't the tool for you.” For me, I think that's a trap, right? Because it's easy to get it early users based on that very curated experience. It's hard to keep those users as they actually start using the thing in anger, as they start interfacing with the real world, as they deal with things that you didn't think of as a platform. I'm always thinking about how can every that you put in the platform be used in multiple ways? How can you actually make these things be composable building blocks, because then that gives you the opportunity for folks to actually compose them in ways that you didn't imagine, starting out. I think that's some of it. I started my career at Microsoft working on Internet Explorer. The fascinating thing about Microsoft is that through and through and through and through Microsoft is a platform company. It started with DOS and Windows and Office, but even though Office is viewed as a platform inside of Microsoft. They fundamentally understand in their bones the benefit of actually starting that platform flywheel. It was really interesting to actually be doing this for the first browser wars of IE versus Netscape when I started my own career, to actually see the fact that Microsoft always saw Internet Explorer as a platform, whereas I think Netscape didn't really get it in the same way, right? They didn't understand the potential, I think in the way that Microsoft did it. For me, I mean, just being where you start your career, oftentimes you actually sets your patterns in terms of how you look at things over time. I think a lot of this platform thinking comes from just imprinting when I was a baby developer, I think. I don't know. It takes a lot of time to really internalize that stuff. [0:31:14.1] BL: The lesson here is this a good one, is that when we're building things that are way bigger than us, don't think of your product as the end goal. Think of it as an enabler. When it's an enabler, that's where you get that X multiplier. Then that's where you get all the residuals. Microsoft actually is a great example of it. My gosh. Just think of what Microsoft has been able to do with the power of Office? [0:31:39.1] JB: Yeah. I look at something like VB in the Microsoft world. We still don't have VB for the cloud era. We still haven't created that. I think there's still opportunity there to actually strike. VB back in the day, for those who weren't there, struck this amazing balance of being easy to get started with, but also something that could actually grow with you over time, because it had all these extension mechanisms where you could actually – there's the marketplace controls that you could buy, you could partner with other developers that were writing C or C++. It was an incredible platform. Then they leverage to Office to extend the capabilities of VB. It's an amazing ecosystem. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Bryan. [0:32:16.0] BL: Oh, no. That's all good. I get as excited about it as you do whenever I think about it. It's a pretty exciting place to be. [0:32:21.8] JB: Yeah. I'll talk to VC's, because I did a startup and the EIR thing and I'll have them ask me things like, “Hey, where should we invest in the Kubernetes space?” My answer is using the BS analogy like, “You got to go where the puck is going.” Invest in the things that Kubernetes enables. What are the things that people can do now that they couldn't do pre-Kubernetes? Those are the things where we're going to see the explosion of growth. It's not about the Kubernetes. It's really about a larger ecosystem that Kubernetes is the seed crystal for. [0:32:56.2] BL: For those of you listening, if you want to get anything out of here, rewind back about 20 seconds and play that over and over again, what Joe just said. [0:33:04.2] MG: Yeah. This was brilliant. [0:33:05.9] BL: It’s where the puck is going. It's not where we are now. We're building for the future. We're not building for now. [0:33:11.1] MG: I'm looking at this tweetable quotes here, the last 20 seconds, so many tweetable quotes. We have to decide which ones to tweet then. [0:33:18.5] CC: Well, we’ll tweet them all. [0:33:20.0] MG: Oh, yes. [0:33:21.3] JB: Here’s another thing. Here’s another piece of career advice. Successful people are good storytellers. You can have the most beautiful technology, if you can't tell the human story about it, about what it does for folks, then nobody will care. I spend a lot of the time on Twitter and probably too much time, if you ask my family. That medium of being able to actually distill your thoughts down into something that is tweetable, quotable, really potent, that is a skill that's worth developing and it's a skill that's worth valuing. Because there's things that are rolling around in my head and I still haven't found a way to get them into a tweet. At some point, I'll figure it out and it'll be a thing. It takes a lot of time to build that skill to be able to refine like that. [0:34:08.5] CC: I want to say an anecdote of myself. I interview a small – so tiny startup, maybe less than 10 people at the time in Cambridge back when I lived up there. The guy was borderline wanting to hire me and no. I sent him an e-mail to try to influence his decision and it was a long-ass e-mail. They said, “No, thank you.” Then I think we had a good rapport. I said, well, anything you can tell me about your decision then? He said something along the lines like, I was too verbose. That was pre-Twitter. Twitter I think existed, but it was at the very beginning, I wasn't using it. Yeah, people. Be concise. Decision-makers don't have time to read long things. You need to be able to convey your message in short sentences, few sentences. It's crucial. [0:35:07.5] BL: All right, so we're nearing the end. I want to ask another question, because these are random questions for Joe. Joe, it is the week before KubeCon North America 2019 and today is actually an interesting day. A couple of neat things happened today. We had Docker. It was neat. Docker split somewhat and it sold part of it and now they're going to be a tools company. That's neat. We're all still trying decoding what that actually is. Here's the neat piece, Apple released a laptop that can have 64 gigabytes of memory. [0:35:44.4] MG: Has an escape key. [0:35:45.7] BL: It has an escape key. [0:35:47.6] MG: This is brilliant. [0:35:48.6] BL: Yeah. I think the question was what do you think about that? [0:35:52.8] JB: Okay. Well, so first of all, I mean, Docker is fascinating and I think this is – there's a lot of lessons there and I'm not sure I'm the one to tell them. I think it's easy to armchair-quarterback these things. It's hard to live that story. I think that it's fun to play that what-if game. I think it does show that this stuff is hard. You can have everything in your grasp and then just have it all slip away. I think that's not anybody's fault. It's just there's different strategies, different approaches in how this stuff plays out over time. On the laptop thing, I think my current laptop has 16 gigs of RAM. One of the things that we're seeing is that as we move towards a microservices world, I gave a talk about this probably three or four years ago. As we move to a microservices world, I think there's one stage where you create a bunch of microservices, but you still view those things as an app. You say, "This microservice belongs to this app." Within a mature organization, those things start to grow and eventually what you find is that you have services that are actually useful for multiple apps. Your entire production infrastructure becomes this web of services that are calling each other. Apps are just entry points into these things at different points of that web of infrastructure. This is the way that things work at Google. When you see companies that are microservices-based, let's take an Uber, or Lyft or an Airbnb. As they diversify the set of products that they're offering, you know they're not running completely independent stacks. You know that there's places where these things connect to behind the scenes in a microservices world. What does that mean for developers? What it means is that you can no longer fit an entire company's worth of infrastructure on your laptop anymore. Within a certain constraint, you can go through and actually say, “Hey, I can bring up this canonical cut of microservices. I can bring that up on my laptop, but it will have dependencies that I either have to actually call into the prod dependencies, call into specialized staging, or mock those things out, so that I can actually run this thing locally and develop it.” With 64 gig of RAM, I can run more on my laptop, right? There's a little bit of kick in that can down the road in terms of okay, there's this race between more microservicey versus how much I can port on my laptop. The interesting thing is that where is this going to end? Are we going to have the ability to bring more and more with your laptop? Are you going to be able to run in the split brain thing across like there's people who will create network connections between these things? Or are we going to move to a world where you're doing more development on cluster, in the cloud and your laptop gets thinner and thinner, right? Either you absolutely need 64 gig because you're pushing up against the boundaries of what you can do on your laptop, or you've given up and it's all running in the cloud. Yet anyways, you might as well just use a Chromebook. It's fascinating that we're seeing this divergence of scaling up, versus actually moving stuff to the cloud. I can tell you at Google, a lot of folks, even developers can actually be super, super productive with something relatively thin like Chromebook, because there's so many tools there that really are targeted at doing all that stuff remotely, in Google's production data centers and such. That's I think the interesting implication from a developer point of view with 64 gigabytes of RAM. What you going to do Bryan? You're going to get the 64 gig Mac? You’re going to do it? [0:39:11.2] BL: It’s already coming. They'll be here week after next. [0:39:13.2] JB: You already ordered it? You are such an Apple fanboy. Oh, man. [0:39:18.6] BL: Oh, I'm actually so not to go too much into it. I am a fan of lots of memory. You know what? We work in this cloud native world. Any given week, I’ll work on four to five projects. I'm lazy. I don't want to shut any of them down. Now with 64 gigs, I don't have to shut anything down. [0:39:37.2] JB: It was so funny. When I was at Microsoft, everybody actually focused on Microsoft Windows boot time. They’re like, “We got to make it boot faster. We got to make it boot faster.” I'm like, I don't boot that often. I just want the thing to resume from sleep, right? If you can make that reliable on that theme. [0:39:48.7] CC: Yeah. I frequently have to restart my computer, because of memory issues. I don't want to know which app is taking up memory. I have a tool that I can look up, but I just shut it down, flush the memory. I do have a question related to Docker. Kubernetes, I don't know if it's right to say that Kubernetes is so reliant on Docker, because I know it works with other container technologies as well. In the worst case scenario, it's obviously, I have no reason to predict this, but in the worst case scenario where Docker, let's say is discontinued, how would that affect Kubernetes? [0:40:25.3] JB: Early on when we were doing Kubernetes and you're in this relationship with a company like Docker, I looked at what Docker was doing and you're like, “Okay, where is the real value here over time?” In my mind, I thought that the interface with developers that distributed kernel, that API surface area of Kubernetes, that was really the thing and that a lot of the Docker stuff was over time going to fade to the background. I think we've seen that happen, because when we talk about production systems, we definitely have moved past Docker and we have the CRI, we have Container D, which it was essentially built by Docker, donated to the CNCF as it made its way towards graduation. I think it's graduated now. The governance ties to Docker have been severed at this point. In production systems for Kubernetes, we've moved past that. I still think that there's developer experiences oftentimes reliant on Docker and things like Docker files. I think we're moving past that also. I think that if Docker were to disappear off the face of the earth, there would be some adjustment, but I think we have the right toolkits and the right systems to be able to do that. Some of that is open sourced by Docker as part of the Moby project. The whole Docker file evaluation flow is actually in this thing called Build Kit that you can actually use in different contexts outside of the Docker game. I think there's a lot of the building action. The thing that I think is the most influential thing that actually I think will stand the test of time is the Docker container image format. That artifact that you upload, that you download, the registry APIs. Now those things have been codified and are moving forward slowly under the OCI, the open container initiative project, which is a little bit of a sister foundation niche type of thing to the CNCF. I think that's the influence over time. Then related to that, I think the world should be a little bit worried about Docker Hub and what that means for Docker Hub over time, because that is not a cheap service to run. It's done as a public good, similar to github. If the commercial aspects of that are not healthy, then I think it might be disruptive if we see something bad happen with Docker Hub itself. I don't know what exactly the replacement for that would be overnight. That'd be incredibly disruptive. [0:42:35.8] CC: Should be Harbour. [0:42:37.7] JB: I mean, Harbour is a thing, but somebody's got a run it and somebody's got to pay the bandwidth bills, right? Thank you to Docker for paying those bandwidth bills, because it's actually been good for not just Docker, but for our entire ecosystem to be able to do that. I don't know what that looks like moving forward. I think it's going to be – I mean, maybe github with github artifacts and it's going to pick up the slack. We’re going to have to see. [0:42:58.6] MG: Good. I have one last question from my end. Totally different topic, not Docker at all. Or maybe, depends on your answer to it. The question is you're very technical person, what is the technology, or the stuff that your brain is currently spinning on, if you can disclose? Obviously, no secrets. What keeps you awake at night, in your brain? [0:43:20.1] JB: I mean, I think the thing that – a couple of things, is that stuff that's just completely different from our world, I think is interesting. I think we've entered at a place where programming computers, and so stuff is so specialized. That again, I talk about if you made me be a front-end developer, I would flail for several months trying to figure out how to even be productive, right? I think similar when we look at something like machine learning, there's a lot of stuff happening there really fast. I understand the broad strokes, but I can't say that I understand it to any deep degree. I think it's fascinating and exciting the amount of diversity in this world and stuff to learn. Bryan's asked me in the past. It's like, “Hey, if you're going to quit and start a new career and do something different, what would it be?” I think I would probably do something like generative art, right? Essentially, there's folks out there writing these programs to generate art, a little bit of the moral descendant of Demoscene that was I don't know. I wonder was the Demoscene happened, Bryan. When was that? [0:44:19.4] BL: Oh, mid 90s, or early 90s. [0:44:22.4] JB: That’s right. I was never super into that. I don't think I was smart enough. It's crazy stuff. [0:44:27.6] MG: I actually used to write demoscenes. [0:44:28.8] JB: I know you did. I know you did. Okay, so just for those not familiar, the Demoscene was essentially you wrote essentially X86 assembly code to do something cool on screen. It was all generated so that the amount of code was vanishingly small. It was this puzzle/art/technical tour de force type of thing. [0:44:50.8] BL: We wrote trigonometry in a similar – that's literally what we did. [0:44:56.2] JB: I think a lot of that stuff ends up being fun. Stuff that's related to our world, I think about how do we move up the stack and I think a lot of folks are focused on the developer experience, how do we make that easier. I think one of the things through the lens of VMware and Tanzu is looking at how does this stuff start to interface with organizational mechanics? How does the typical enterprise work? How do we actually make sure that we can start delivering a toolset that works with that organization, versus working against the organization? That I think is an interesting area, where it's hard because it involves people. Back-end people like programmers, they love it because they don't have to deal with those pesky people, right? They get to define their interfaces and their interfaces are pure and logical. I think that UI work, UX work, anytime when you deal with people, that's the hardest thing, because you don't get to actually tell them how to think. They tell you how to think and you have to adapt to it, which is actually different from a lot of back-end here in logical type of folks. I think there's an aspect of that that is user experience at the consumer level. There's developer experience and there's a whole class of things, which is maybe organizational experience. How do you interface with the organization, versus just interfacing, whether it's individuals in the developer, or the end-user point of view? I don't know if as an industry, we actually have our heads wrapped around that organizational limits. [0:46:16.6] CC: Well, we have arrived at the end. Makes me so sad, because we could talk for easily two more hours. [0:46:24.8] JB: Yeah, we could definitely keep going. [0:46:26.4] CC: We’re going to bring you back, Joe. Don’t worry. [0:46:28.6] JB: For sure. Anytime. [0:46:29.9] CC: Or do worry. All right, so we are going to release these episodes right after KubeCon. Glad everybody could be here today. Thank you. Make sure to subscribe and follow us on Twitter. Follow us everywhere and suggest episode topics for us. Bye and until next time. [0:46:52.3] JB: Thank you so much. [0:46:52.9] MG: Bye. [0:46:54.1] BL: Bye. Thank you. [END OF EPISODE] [0:46:55.1] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. 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