Podcasts about mesos

Critique des jeux de société : Mesos, Symbiose, Magicarta, Danger, Zenith et Agent avenue, sortis en début d'année 2025

We're so glad you're joining us for pt. 2 in our series, "Mesos (The Man in the Middle)." We pray God continues to use these messages to speak into your life and help you grow in your relationship with Jesus Christ!Pursuit Church on Social Media:facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PursuitChurchDenver/?ref=bookmarksinstagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuit_church/Pursuit Worship on Social Media:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Pursuit-Worship-671274439695803/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuit.worship/

We're so excited to be starting a brand new series as we lead into the Easter season! We pray this message helps to reveal the hope that we have in Jesus Christ!Pursuit Church on Social Media:facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PursuitChurchDenver/?ref=bookmarksinstagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuit_church/Pursuit Worship on Social Media:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Pursuit-Worship-671274439695803/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuit.worship/

Serà aquest divendres, a les 19.00 h, al Club Marina Casinet.

Un nuevo episodio con un vivero cargado de novedades, algunas de las cuales van a ser próximamente editadas en español y su precompra se abre el mismo día que este episodio es publicado. Enlace para la precompra de Criaturas Maravillosas y La Corte del Zar - https://samarucgames.com/tienda Enlace a la campaña de Khlor - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tembo/khlor Menú: (0:06:12) Khlor (0:10:18) La Corte del Zar (0:20:55) Feria de Sellos (0:35:53) Dead Reckoning (0:53:09) Lumicora (1:02:52) Mesos (1:12:23) Criaturas Maravillosas (1:32:33) Monkey Palace (1:41:35) Pradera: Libro de Aventuras (1:54:56) Sagascade

L'actualitat dels Països Catalans, cada setmana amb la Directa. 

L'Ajuntament de Montbrió del Camp urbanitzarà i renaturalitzarà una zona al voltant de l'Església perquè els ciutadans tinguin un espai ombrívol per afrontar els mesos de forta calor. Carmina Blay és l'alcaldessa. Aquest espai connectarà amb els Jardins de l'Horta Florida, creant el que Blay anomena cinturó verd. Es preveu que el projecte estigui enllestit […] L'entrada Montbrió del Camp farà un espai verd i ombrívol per afrontar els mesos de forta calor ha aparegut primer a BXC Ràdio Ciutat de Reus - Ràdio Online.

Programa 5x81, amb Godai Garcia. Com podeu veure, encara ens queden alguns asos amagats a la m

Shelley and I compete with rival bands to earn the most money in New Orleans in Big Easy Busking by Joshus J. Mills from Weird Giraffe Games then try to build up our prehistoric tribes in Mesos by Yaniv Kahana and Simone Luciani from Cranio Creations and Pegasus Spiele Thanks as always to our sponsor Bezier Games You can support the podcast directly by going to www.patreon.com/garrettsgames or check out the HUGE list of games that no longer fit on our shelves, but belong on your table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16ovRDNBqur0RiAzgFAfI0tYYnjlJ68hoHyHffU7ZDWk/edit?usp=sharing  

La Biblioteca Vapor Badia tancarà quatre mesos per renovar-ne la climatització

Violence has an echo, growing louder with each reverberation . . . how do you stop its echo once it starts ringing?Ashme is a New Mesopotamian--a "Meso." She dreams of being a hero, fighting against the brutal Ostarrichi ruling her country. She is an indigo child, her DNA modified by sentient AI, enabling her to control computer systems at will. With this power, she has something to offer the Meso resistance. Her twin brother, Shen, however, suffers from a neurological disorder and needs someone to care for him. Increasingly, that task falls on her.How can she become the hero her people need when her brother's needs are overwhelming? If she continues caring for Shen while joining the resistance, she risks leading Ostarrichi forces to her home. If she leaves, then looking after Shen will fall to her cousin, who is already overworked caring for his frail grandmother.As her society collapses into violence, Ashme must choose between her fellow Mesos, her family, and her values.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/houseofmysteryradio. Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/houseofmysteryradio. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Un Nadal per compartir és el tema de portada de la revista Cuina dels mesos de desembre i gener. En parlem amb la periodista i directora d'aquesta revista, Judith Càlix.

0:00 Intro, When The Saints Go Marching In - Louis Armstrong 3:00 Giant War of the Ring 9:30 Terrorscape 15:45 Hamlet expansion 19:00 Resafa 22:45 Rebel Princesses 25:45 Iron Forest 28:00 Civolution 31:30 Flip 7 35:00 Slay the Spire: The Board Game 40:30 MESOS: Overview 44:45 Caveman - Mike Oldfield 45:45 MESOS: Review 1:03:00 MESOS: Verdict 1:06:00 Top 3 Games of BGG 1:17:00 Board Boys Bump: Last Light 1:22:30 Thank You, Patrons 1:23:00 Walk the Dinosaur - Was not Was

Sabadell encadena tres mesos seguits amb descensos de l'atur

La revista Descobrir ens proposa pels mesos de desembre i de gener un número amb un dossier de portada sobre "Els Paisatges amb Gust". En parlem amb el seu director en cap, Joan Morales.

Avui que Sitges ha acomiadat David Jou i Andreu, de l'arxiu sonor de Ràdio Maricel recuperem una antrevista que us agradarà. Mesos abans de complir els 90 anys, Jou publicà 'Memòria de navegacions', un relat a través de totes les vicissituds vinculades a la seva feina com a capità de vaixell. Ell mateix ens confessava que, molt sovint, la professió suposà una 'renúncia a tot' i, en especial, a no poder estar amb la família i veure créixer els seus fills. Eren, ja aleshores, reflexions des de la saviesa del coneixement i l'experiència viscudes. Fou un 18 de març de 2014 quan ens atenia a casa seva. L'entrada En la mort de David Jou i Andreu, el recordem de la millor manera: parlant de la seva vida. Una entrevista del març de 2014 ha aparegut primer a Radio Maricel.

We are going over all of your answers from the PUNK questions of the day!  We are also playing killer bands like Blanks 77, Misfits, Spiky Tops, Mesos, the Dwraves plus more! We are also talking about some upcoming shows and PUNK Flea Markets!     The site is back! You can find all 1000 episodes of PoGo City Radio with the following link! http://pogocityradio.bandzoogle.com Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   You can purchase the Let's Go PoGo 7 inch by Spiky Topsfrom http://gojoepogo.com in the record shop!  Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Punk Up The Airways Podcast https://punkuptheairwaves.podbean.com/

Manolo Tomàs, president de la Plataforma en Defensa de l'Ebre, amb qui comentem les últimes novetats sobre el transvasament, o no, del riu i l'activitat més recent de la plataforma.

Listening to some brand new PUNK tracks and going over some of the PUNK Questions Of The Day! We are also talking about show all over the East Coast that you should totally try to make it out to! Spinning tracks from Dogfaced Bastards, The Mesos, Ravengers, Rotten Stitches, Ramoms, Street Brats, Parasitix, Exploited, Murphy's Law and the PoGo Attack!  The website will be back when I feel like fixing it... But you can find all 1000 episodes of PoGo City Radio with the following link! Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   You can purchase the Let's Go PoGo 7 inch by Spiky Topsfrom http://gojoepogo.com in the record shop!  Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Punk Up The Airways Podcast https://punkuptheairwaves.podbean.com/   Never Mind the Broadcast, Here's Izzy Smut!    https://open.spotify.com/show/13OYnLwXhPcAN5kAkNJi3j?si=b2a0bf0d22ec432b 

Come hear stories from the latest Spiky Tops road trip! Plus new music from Rotten Stitches, and plenty of other awesome tracks from bands like the Midnight Creeps, Dogfaced Bastards, the Mesos, Spiky Tops and a bunch more!

Send us a Text Message.In this episode, Kid Daugirdas joins Taylor, Braden, and Shane (or, as you might know him, Postart) to discuss how he got into rocketry, his two-stage rocket MESOS and its flight to 293,000 feet, approaching the Kármán Line, and tips for folks looking to get into high-performance and multi-stage rockets. Be sure to check out Kip's channel on YouTube! Support the Show.

Andrew Bedlam is recapping the Spiky Tops record release party by playing tracks recorded live from the Lafayette Bar virtually taking you right in the show! You'll hear live tracks from F.T.S. Sin Bin and of course the Spiky Tops! We also have the brand new single from the Norwegian PUNK band, Dead Target, if you like their track give them a follow on Spotify! Spiky Tops have a lot of great shows coming up with some AWESOME bands and Andrew is getting you ready by spinning some of their track! Bands like the Mesos, Derailment and Monster Squad! We also check in with our family in Virginia, play new tracks from the UnSubs and Bolo 1037 we snuck in the Dowclines as well! All this and more... Like the LOWER CLASS BRATS, in this episode of PoGo City Radio!   And oh, PLEASE BUY OUR SHIT WITH THE LINKS BELOW! Somehow, due to popular demand, http://pogocityhq.com has returned! You can purchase the Let's Go PoGo 7 inch by Spiky Tops there at our record shop!  Swing by the PoGo Shop, for shirts, mugs and cool accessories!  The PoGo Site is complete with FREE mp3 player, a link to the PoGo Shop and every episode of PoGo City Radio ever released!  Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Never Mind the Broadcast, Here's Izzy Smut!    https://open.spotify.com/show/13OYnLwXhPcAN5kAkNJi3j?si=b2a0bf0d22ec432b   

Kubernetes is cool, and I think it's really useful in helping us scale and manage multiple systems easily in a fault-tolerant way. Actually, I don't think Kubernetes per se is important itself; more it seems that the idea of some orchestration engine to manage containers and systems is what really matters. As a side note, there are other orchestrators such as Mesos, OpenShift, and Nomad. However, do we need to know Kubernetes to use it for databases? This is a data platform newsletter, and most of us work with databases in some way. I do see more databases moving to the cloud, and a few moving to containers. I was thinking about this when I saw a Simple Talk article on Kubernetes for Complete Beginners. It's a basic article that looks at what the platform consists of, how it works, and how to set up a mini Kubernetes platform on your system. It's well written and interesting, but ... Read the rest of Kubernetes is Cool, But ...

Sabadell encadena tres mesos amb l'atur a la baixa

Spiky Tops debut has now been released!!! Order your copy now from http://gojoepogo.com We have plenty of great tracks in this episode! From bands like Sloppy Seconds, River Side Odds, the Mesos, One Sided, Spiky Tops, The War Lovers, Downclines and even Ugly Kid Joe... Hear all this and more on todays show! Also somehow, due to popular demand, http://pogocityhq.com has returned! Complete with FREE mp3 downloads, a link to the PoGo Shop and every episode of PoGo City Radio ever released!  Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Never Mind the Broadcast, Here's Izzy Smut!    https://open.spotify.com/show/13OYnLwXhPcAN5kAkNJi3j?si=b2a0bf0d22ec432b  Order The New Spiky Tops Record!!! https://joepogorecords.storenvy.com/products/36737286-spiky-tops-7

In today's episode we are playing some punk rock tracks from the Forgotten, the Unseen, Hell Flowers, Defiance, SpikyTops Scarboro, Battle Flask, Terroristik Threat, War Lovers, Poison Idea, the Rum Kicks, River Side Odds, The Mesos and more! Andrew Bedlam is also talking about some of the big changes or BIG contradictions in the PUNK community! Also somehow, due to popular demand, http://pogocityhq.com has returned! Complete with FREE mp3 downloads, a link to the PoGo Shop and every episode of PoGo City Radio ever released!  Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Never Mind the Broadcast, Here's Izzy Smut!    https://open.spotify.com/show/13OYnLwXhPcAN5kAkNJi3j?si=b2a0bf0d22ec432b 

Andrew Bedlam accidentally does a female empowerment episode! We also premier some new tracks from Kirkby Kiss and Medicinal split! This episode was opened with a new one from Band Skin (CAN) & The Rum Kicks (KR) titled We Are The Girls!  Also playing tracks from X-Rated, The Hell Followers, River Side Odds,the Mesos and Broken Cuffs! We are also throwing in a few live tracks from last weekends Poorman NJ SpikyTops gig! With live tracks from Bride Riot and Grave Yard School! Also somehow, due to popular demand, http://pogocityhq.com has returned! Complete with FREE mp3 downloads, a link to the PoGo Shop and every episode of PoGo City Radio ever released!  Follow our socials! Search for us on Threads & TikTok! http://Facebook.com/pogocityradio  http://instagram.com/pogocityradio http://youtube.com/@pogocityradio77   Up the PUNX! Check out these Punkcasts as well! Star City Punk Cast https://open.spotify.com/show/6TzgvTRD5Zjm4VjXy8gkqx Never Mind the Broadcast, Here's Izzy Smut!    https://open.spotify.com/show/13OYnLwXhPcAN5kAkNJi3j?si=b2a0bf0d22ec432b 

Cap

Cap

Thought easing back into the saddle would be easy, but getting back into anything after a lay off is difficult. Driving, Relationships, The Gym and even Podcasting / Radio - You just forget how somethings work...!  So, this episode was not without its struggles, now you have a shortened one. I recently became acquainted with Chad and Thora some local peeps busting their asses to make the local punk scene great again.  Chad plays in a few bands (Blanks 77 and The Mesos) and they also host the Pretty Vacant Podcast. So in recognition of the great music they play and promote I have included some of the awesome local / regional tunes that have been and are coming to the area, in addition to a whole host of other great punk and Oi! Enjoy the show and spread the love.  Don't forget to listen to Paddy Rock live Wednesdays from 7 - 9 om EST and Rocksteady Tonight Sundays from 6-8 pm on www.BootBoyRadio.net. Turn it loud and and thanks for listening ! ~ Phil (aka The Grinning Beggar).     The Playlist: Rough Cuts   Knockout Saturday Red Alert   Too Many Goodbyes Ultra Sect   Modern Nights Convict Class   One True God Suburban Downgrade   Serenity The Parasitix   Do You Trust Them? Broken Cuffs   These Boots Sin Bin   My Fist Your Face Old Daggers   Wishing Well No Comply   Board Meeting No Comply   Deadtropolis The Mesos   Soggy Duffy's Cut   Strawberry Mansion Nights Hub City Stompers   Hub City Stomp Broken Bones   Stand Up Ultra Sect   Bread and Roses The Young Ones   The Cost Of Life Dropkick Murphys   Who Is Who The Mistakes   Heathens Special Duties   Top 40 Doug & the Slugz   American Skins Razorcut   Lionheart Liberty And Justice   You're Dumb Gimp Fist   Can't Win em All Lager Lads   Even the Score Reckless Upstarts   SHARP As A Knife Arch Rivals   Hooligans United Cock Sparrer   Too Late

Perquè, hores d'ara, la principal estratègia de l'Ajuntament davant la venda ambulant il·legal és arribar a negociacions amb els venedors per evitar que s'instal·lin en els espais públics, perquè una solució estrictament policial podria obrir la porta a problemes d'ordre públic, malgrat que es pugui entrar en un conflicte ètic. El portaveu del Sitges Grup Independent i regidor de governació, infancia i joventut i comerç i promoció econòmica, David Martínez, ha anunciat la imminent posada en marxa de l'aplicació per a mòbils que permetrà una connexió directa amb la comissaria per exposar qualsevol situació que necessiti una actuació policial, per bé que caldrà tenir en compte la capacitat del cos per respondre amb rapidesa a la petició de l'app. Martínez també ha manifestat que en el cas que durant el ple d'octubre la sessió hagi de votar el recurs dels treballadors sobre la demanda d'anul·lació dels punts aprovats en el ple extraordinari del passat 19 de juliol, el seu grup votarà a favor. L'entrada David Martínez (SitgesGI) anuncia que d’aquí dos mesos estarà disponible l’app per contactar amb la policia local, i admet negociacions amb els manters ha aparegut primer a Radio Maricel.

Kelsey Hightower joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss his reflections on how the tech industry is progressing. Kelsey describes what he's been getting out of retirement so far, and reflects on what he learned throughout his high-profile career - including why feature sprawl is such a driving force behind the complexity of the cloud environment and the tactics he used to create demos that are engaging for the audience. Corey and Kelsey also discuss the importance of remaining authentic throughout your career, and what it means to truly have an authentic voice in tech. About KelseyKelsey Hightower is a former Distinguished Engineer at Google Cloud, the co-chair of KubeCon, the world's premier Kubernetes conference, and an open source enthusiast. He's also the co-author of Kubernetes Up & Running: Dive into the Future of Infrastructure. Recently, Kelsey announced his retirement after a 25-year career in tech.Links Referenced:Twitter: https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Do you wish there were cheat codes for database optimization? Well, there are – no seriously. If you're using Postgres or MySQL on Amazon Aurora or RDS, OtterTune uses AI to automatically optimize your knobs and indexes and queries and other bits and bobs in databases. OtterTune applies optimal settings and recommendations in the background or surfaces them to you and allows you to do it. The best part is that there's no cost to try it. Get a free, thirty-day trial to take it for a test drive. Go to ottertune dot com to learn more. That's O-T-T-E-R-T-U-N-E dot com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. You know, there's a great story from the Bible or Torah—Old Testament, regardless—that I was always a big fan of where you wind up with the Israelites walking the desert for 40 years in order to figure out what comes next. And Moses led them but could never enter into what came next. Honestly, I feel like my entire life is sort of going to be that direction. Not the biblical aspects, but rather always wondering what's on the other side of a door that I can never cross, and that door is retirement. Today I'm having returning guest Kelsey Hightower, who is no longer at Google. In fact, is no longer working and has joined the ranks of the gloriously retired. Welcome back, and what's it like?Kelsey: I'm happy to be here. I think retirement is just like work in some ways: you have to learn how to do it. A lot of people have no practice in their adult life what to do with all of their time. We have small dabs in it, like, you get the weekend off, depending on what your work, but you never have enough time to kind of unwind and get into something else. So, I'm being honest with myself. It's going to be a learning curve, what to do with that much time.You're probably still going to do work, but it's going to be a different type of work than you're used to. And so, that's where I am. 30 days into this, I'm in that learning mode, I'm on-the-job training.Corey: What's harder than you expected?Kelsey: It's not the hard part because I think mentally I've been preparing for, like, the last ten years, being a minimalist, learning how to kind of live within my means, learn to appreciate things that are just not work-related or status symbols. And so, to me, it felt like a smooth transition because I started to value my time more than anything else, right? Just waking up the next day became valuable to me. Spending time in the moment, right, you go to these conferences, there's, like, 10,000 people, but you learn to value those one-on-one encounters, those one-off, kind of, let's just go grab lunch situations. So, to me, retirement just makes more room for that, right? I no longer have this calendar that is super full, so I think for me, it was a nice transition in terms of getting more of that valuable time back.Corey: It seems to me that you're in a similar position to the one that I find myself in where the job that you were doing and I still am is tied, more or less, to a sense of identity as opposed to a particular task or particular role that you fill. You were Kelsey Hightower. That was a complete sentence. People didn't necessarily need to hear the rest of what you were working on or what you were going to be talking about at a given conference or whatnot. So, it seemed, at least from the outside, that an awful lot of what you did was quite simply who you were. Do you feel that your sense of identity has changed?Kelsey: So, I think when you have that much influence, when you have that much reputation, the words you say travel further, they tend to come with a little bit more respect, and so when you're working with a team on new product, and you say, “Hey, I think we should change some things.” And when they hear those words coming from someone that they trust or has a name that is attached to reputation, you tend to be able to make a lot of impact with very few words. But what you also find is that no matter what you get involved in—configuration management, distributed systems, serverless, working with customers—it all is helped and aided by the reputation that you bring into that line of work. And so yes, who you are matters, but one thing that I think helped me, kind of greatly, people are paying attention maybe to the last eight years of my career: containers, Kubernetes, but my career stretches back to the converting COBOL into Python days; the dawn of DevOps, Puppet, Chef, and Ansible; the Golang appearance and every tool being rewritten from Ruby to Golang; the Docker era.And so, my identity has stayed with me throughout those transitions. And so, it was very easy for me to walk away from that thing because I've done it three or four times before in the past, so I know who I am. I've never had, like, a Twitter bio that said, “Company X. X person from company X.” I've learned long ago to just decouple who I am from my current employer because that is always subject to change.Corey: I was fortunate enough to not find myself in the public eye until I owned my own company. But I definitely remember times in my previous incarnations where I was, “Oh, today I'm working at this company,” and I believed—usually inaccurately—that this was it. This was where I really found my niche. And then surprise I'm not there anymore six months later for, either their decision, my decision, or mutual agreement. And I was always hesitant about hanging a shingle out that was tied too tightly to any one employer.Even now, I was little worried about doing it when I went independent, just because well, what if it doesn't work? Well, what if, on some level? I think that there's an authenticity that you can bring with you—and you certainly have—where, for a long time now, whenever you say something, I take it seriously, and a lot of people do. It's not that you're unassailably correct, but I've never known you to say something you did not authentically believe in. And that is an opinion that is very broadly shared in this industry. So, if nothing else, you definitely were a terrific object lesson in speaking the truth, as you saw it.Kelsey: I think what you describe is one way that, whether you're an engineer doing QA, working in the sales department, when you can be honest with the team you're working with, when you can be honest with the customers you're selling into when you can be honest with the community you're part of, that's where the authenticity gets built, right? Companies, sometimes on the surface, you believe that they just want you to walk the party line, you know, they give you the lines and you just read them verbatim and you're doing your part. To be honest, you can do that with the website. You can do that with a well-placed ad in the search queries.What people are actually looking for are real people with real experiences, sharing not just fact, but I think when you mix kind of fact and opinion, you get this level of authenticity that you can't get just by pure strategic marketing. And so, having that leverage, I remember back in the day, people used to say, “I'm going to do the right thing and if it gets me fired, then that's just the way it's going to be. I don't want to go around doing the wrong thing because I'm scared I'm going to lose my job.” You want to find yourself in that situation where doing the right thing, is also the best thing for the company, and that's very rare, so when I've either had that opportunity or I've tried to create that opportunity and move from there.Corey: It resonates and it shows. I have never had a lot of respect for people who effectively are saying one thing today and another thing the next week based upon which way they think that the winds are blowing. But there's also something to be said for being able and willing to publicly recant things you have said previously as technology evolves, as your perspective evolves and, in light of new information, I'm now going to change my perspective on something. I've done that already with multi-cloud, for example. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard about it. But there are also expressions of it that basically every company is using, including my own. And it's a nuanced area. Where I find it challenging is when you see a lot of these perspectives that people are espousing that just so happen to deeply align with where their paycheck comes from any given week. That doesn't ring quite as true to me.Kelsey: Yeah, most companies actually don't know how to deal with it either. And now there has been times at any number of companies where my authentic opinion that I put out there is against party line. And you get those emails from directors and VPs. Like, “Hey, I thought we all agree to think this way or to at least say this.” And that's where you have to kind of have that moment of clarity and say, “Listen, that is undeniably wrong. It's so wrong in fact that if you say this in public, whether a small setting or large setting, you are going to instantly lose credibility going forward for yourself. Forget the company for a moment. There's going to be a situation where you will no longer be effective in your job because all of your authenticity is now gone. And so, what I'm trying to do and tell you is don't do that. You're better off saying nothing.”But if you go out there, and you're telling what is obviously misinformation or isn't accurate, people are not dumb. They're going to see through it and you will be classified as a person not to listen to. And so, I think a lot of people struggle with that because they believe that enterprise's consensus should also be theirs.Corey: An argument that I made—we'll call it a prediction—four-and-a-half years ago, was that in five years, nobody would really care about Kubernetes. And people misunderstood that initially, and I've clarified since repeatedly that I'm not suggesting it's going away: “Oh, turns out that was just a ridiculous fever dream and we're all going back to running bare metal with our hands again,” but rather that it would slip below the surface-level of awareness. And I don't know that I got the timing quite right on that, I think it's going to depend on the company and the culture that you find yourself in. But increasingly, when there's an application to run, it's easy to ask someone just, “Oh, great. Where's the Kubernetes cluster live so we can throw this on there and just add it to the rest of the pile?”That is sort of what I was seeing. My intention with that was not purely just to be controversial, as much fun as that might be, but also to act as a bit of a warning, where I've known too many people who let their identities become inextricably tangled with the technology. But technologies rise and fall, and at some point—like, you talk about configuration management days; I learned to speak publicly as a traveling trainer for Puppet. I wrote part of SaltStack once upon a time. But it was clear that that was not the direction the industry was going, so it was time to find something else to focus on. And I fear for people who don't keep an awareness or their feet underneath them and pay attention to broader market trends.Kelsey: Yeah, I think whenever I was personally caught up in linking my identity to technology, like, “I'm a Rubyist,” right?“, I'm a Puppeteer,” and you wear those names proudly. But I remember just thinking to myself, like, “You have to take a step back. What's more important, you or the technology?” And at some point, I realized, like, it's me, that is more important, right? Like, my independent thinking on this, my independent experience with this is far more important than the success of this thing.But also, I think there's a component there. Like when you talked about Kubernetes, you know, maybe being less relevant in five years, there's two things there. One is the success of all infrastructure things equals irrelevancy. When flights don't crash, when bridges just work, you do not think about them. You just use them because they're so stable and they become very boring. That is the success criteria.Corey: Utilities. No one's wondering if the faucet's going to work when they turn it on in the morning.Kelsey: Yeah. So, you know, there's a couple of ways to look at your statement. One is, you believe Kubernetes is on the trajectory that it's going to stabilize itself and hit that success criteria, and then it will be irrelevant. Or there's another part of the irrelevancy where something else comes along and replaces that thing, right? I think Cloud Foundry and Mesos are two good examples of Kubernetes coming along and stealing all of the attention from that because those particular products never gained that mass adoption. Maybe they got to the stable part, but they never got to the mass adoption part. So, I think when it comes to infrastructure, it's going to be irrelevant. It's just what side of that [laugh] coin do you land on?Corey: It's similar to folks who used to have to work at a variety of different companies on very specific Linux kernel subsystems because everyone had to care because there were significant performance impacts. Time went on and now there's still a few of those people that very much need to care, but for the rest of us, it is below the level of things that we have to care about. For me, the signs of the unsustainability were, oh, you can run Kubernetes effectively in production? That's a minimum of a quarter-million dollars a year in comp or up in some cases. Not every company is going to be able to field a team of those people and still remain a going concern in business. Nor frankly, should they have to.Kelsey: I'm going to pull on that thread a little bit because it's about—we're hitting that ten-year mark of Kubernetes. So, when Kubernetes comes out, why were people drawn to it, right? Why did it even get the time of day to begin with? And I think Docker kind of opened Pandora's box there. This idea of Chef, Puppet, Ansible, ten thousand package managers, and honestly, that trajectory was going to continue forever and it was helping no one. It was literally people doing duplicate work depending on the operating system you're dealing with and we were wasting time copying bits to servers—literally—in a very glorified way.So, Docker comes along and gives us this nicer, better abstraction, but it has gaps. It has no orchestration. It's literally this thing where now we've unified the packaging situation, we've learned a lot from Red Hat, YUM, Debian, and the various package repo combinations out there and so we made this universal thing. Great. We also learned a little bit about orchestration through brute force, bash scripts, config management, you name it, and so we serialized that all into this thing we call Kubernetes.It's pretty simple on the surface, but it was probably never worthy of such fanfare, right? But I think a lot of people were relieved that now we finally commoditized this expertise that the Googles, the Facebooks of the world had, right, building these systems that can copy bits to other systems very fast. There you go. We've gotten that piece. But I think what the market actually wants is in the mobile space, if you want to ship software to 300 million people that you don't even know, you can do it with the app store.There's this appetite that the boring stuff should be easy. Let's Encrypt has made SSL certificates beyond easy. It's just so easy to do the right thing. And I think for this problem we call deployments—you know, shipping apps around—at some point we have to get to a point where that is just crazy easy. And it still isn't.So, I think some of the frustration people express ten years later, they're realizing that they're trying to recreate a Rube Goldberg machine with Kubernetes is the base element and we still haven't understood that this whole thing needs to simplify, not ten thousand new pieces so you can build your own adventure.Corey: It's the idea almost of what I'm seeing AWS go through, and to some extent, its large competitors. But building anything on top of AWS from scratch these days is still reminiscent of going to Home Depot—or any hardware store—and walking up and down the aisles and getting all the different components to piece together what you want. Sometimes just want to buy something from Target that's already assembled and you have to do all of that work. I'm not saying there isn't value to having a Home Depot down the street, but it's also not the panacea that solves for all use cases. An awful lot of customers just want to get the job done and I feel that if we cling too tightly to how things used to be, we lose it.Kelsey: I'm going to tell you, being in the cloud business for almost eight years, it's the customers that create this. Now, I'm not blaming the customer, but when you start dealing with thousands of customers with tons of money, you end up in a very different situation. You can have one customer willing to pay you a billion dollars a year and they will dictate things that apply to no one else. “We want this particular set of features that only we will use.” And for a billion bucks a year times ten years, it's probably worth from a business standpoint to add that feature.Now, do this times 500 customers, each major provider. What you end up with is a cloud console that is unbearable, right? Because they also want these things to be first-class citizens. There's always smaller companies trying to mimic larger peers in their segment that you just end up in that chaos machine of unbound features forever. I don't know how to stop it. Unless you really come out maybe more Apple style and you tell people, “This is the one and only true way to do things and if you don't like it, you have to go find an alternative.” The cloud business, I think, still deals with the, “If you have a large payment, we will build it.”Corey: I think that that is a perspective that is not appreciated until you've been in the position of watching how large enterprises really interact with each other. Because it's, “Well, what customer the world is asking for yet another way to run containers?” “Uh, this specific one and their constraints are valid.” Every time I think I've seen everything there is to see in the world of cloud, I just have to go talk to one more customer and I'm learning something new. It's inevitable.I just wish that there was a better way to explain some of this to newcomers, when they're looking at, “Oh, I'm going to learn how this cloud thing works. Oh, my stars, look at how many services there are.” And then they wind up getting lost with analysis paralysis, and every time they get started and ask someone for help, they're pushed in a completely different direction and you keep spinning your wheels getting told to start over time and time again when any of these things can be made to work. But getting there is often harder than it really should be.Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people don't realize how far you can get with, like, three VMs, a load balancer, and Postgres. My guess is you can probably build pretty much any clone of any service we use today with at least 1 million customers. Most people never reached that level—I don't even want to say the word scale—but that blueprint is there and most people will probably be better served by that level of simplicity than trying to mimic the behaviors of large customers—or large companies—with these elaborate use cases. I don't think they understand the context there. A lot of that stuff is baggage. It's not [laugh] even, like, best-of-breed or great design. It's like happenstance from 20 years of trying to buy everything that's been sold to you.Corey: I agree with that idea wholeheartedly. I was surprising someone the other day when I said that if you were to give me a task of getting some random application up and running by tomorrow, I do a traditional three-tier architecture, some virtual machines, a load balancer, and a database service. And is that the way that all the cool kids are doing it today? Well, they're not talking about it, but mostly. But the point is, is that it's what I know, it's where my background is, and the thing you already know when you're trying to solve a new problem is incredibly helpful, rather than trying to learn everything along that new path that you're forging down. Is that architecture the best approach? No, but it's perfectly sufficient for an awful lot of stuff.Kelsey: Yeah. And so, I mean, look, I've benefited my whole career from people fantasizing about [laugh] infrastructure—Corey: [laugh].Kelsey: And the truth is that in 2023, this stuff is so powerful that you can do almost anything you want to do with the simplest architecture that's available to us. The three-tier architecture has actually gotten better over the years. I think people are forgotten: CPUs are faster, RAM is much bigger quantities, the networks are faster, right, these databases can store more data than ever. It's so good to learn the fundamentals, start there, and worst case, you have a sound architecture people can reason about, and then you can go jump into the deep end, once you learn how to swim.Corey: I think that people would be depressed to understand just how much the common case for the value that Kubernetes brings is, “Oh yeah, now we can lose a drive or a server and the application stays up.” It feels like it's a bit overkill for that one somewhat paltry use case, but that problem has been hounding companies for decades.Kelsey: Yeah, I think at some point, the whole ‘SSH is my only interface into these kinds of systems,' that's a little low level, that's a little bare bones, and there will probably be a feature now where we start to have this not Infrastructure as Code, not cloud where we put infrastructure behind APIs and you pay per use, but I think what Kubernetes hints at is a future where you have APIs that do something. Right now the APIs give you pieces so you can assemble things. In the future, the APIs will just do something, “Run this app. I need it to be available and here's my money budget, my security budget, and reliability budget.” And then that thing will say, “Okay, we know how to do that, and here's roughly what is going to cost.”And I think that's what people actually want because that's how requests actually come down from humans, right? We say, “We want this app or this game to be played by millions of people from Australia to New York.” And then for a person with experience, that means something. You kind of know what architecture you need for that, you know what pieces that need to go there. So, we're just moving into a realm where we're going to have APIs that do things all of a sudden.And so, Kubernetes is the warm-up to that era. And that's why I think that transition is a little rough because it leaks the pieces part, so where you can kind of build all the pieces that you want. But we know what's coming. Serverless also hints at this. But that's what people should be looking for: APIs that actually do something.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Panoptica.  Panoptica simplifies container deployment, monitoring, and security, protecting the entire application stack from build to runtime. Scalable across clusters and multi-cloud environments, Panoptica secures containers, serverless APIs, and Kubernetes with a unified view, reducing operational complexity and promoting collaboration by integrating with commonly used developer, SRE, and SecOps tools. Panoptica ensures compliance with regulatory mandates and CIS benchmarks for best practice conformity. Privacy teams can monitor API traffic and identify sensitive data, while identifying open-source components vulnerable to attacks that require patching. Proactively addressing security issues with Panoptica allows businesses to focus on mitigating critical risks and protecting their interests. Learn more about Panoptica today at panoptica.app.Corey: You started the show by talking about how your career began with translating COBOL into Python. I firmly believe someone starting their career today listening to this could absolutely find that by the time their career starts drawing to their own close, that Kubernetes is right in there as far as sounding like the deprecated thing that no one really talks about or thinks about anymore. And I hope so. I want the future to be brighter than the past. I want getting a business or getting software together in a way that helps people to not require the amount of, “First, spend six weeks at a boot camp,” or, “Learn how to write just enough code that you can wind up getting funding and then have it torn apart.”What's the drag-and-drop story? What's the describe the application to a robot and it builds it for you? I'm optimistic about the future of infrastructure, just because based upon its power to potentially make reliability and scale available to folks who have no idea of what's involved with that. That's kind of the point. That's the end game of having won this space.Kelsey: Well, you know what? Kubernetes is providing the metadata to make that possible, right? Like in the early days, people were writing one-off scripts or, you know, writing little for loops to get things in the right place. And then we get config management that kind of formalizes that, but it still had no metadata, right? You'd have things like Puppet report information.But in the world of, like, Kubernetes, or any cloud provider, now you get semantic meaning. “This app needs this volume with this much space with this much memory, I need three of these behind this load balancer with these protocols enabled.” There is now so much metadata about applications, their life cycles, and how they work that if you were to design a new system, you can actually use that data to craft a much better API that made a lot of this boilerplate the defaults. Oh, that's a web application. You do not need to specify all of this boilerplate. Now, we can give you much better nouns and verbs to describe what needs to happen.So, I think this is that transition as all the new people coming up, they're going to be dealing with semantic meaning to infrastructure, where we were dealing with, like, tribal knowledge and intuition, right? “Run this script, pipe it to this thing, and then this should happen. And if it doesn't, run the script again with this flag.” Versus, “Oh, here's the semantic meaning to a working system.” That's a game-changer.Corey: One other topic I wanted to ask you about—I've it's been on my list of things to bring up the next time I ran into you and then you went ahead and retired, making it harder to run into you. But a little while back, I was at a tech conference and someone gave a demo, and it didn't go as well as they had hoped. And a few of us were talking about it afterwards. We've all been speakers, we've all lived that life. Zero shade.But someone brought you up in particular—unprompted; your legend does precede you—and the phrase that they used was that Kelsey's demos were always picture-perfect. He was so lucky with how the demos worked out. And I just have to ask—because you don't strike me as someone who is not careful, particularly when all eyes are upon you—and real experts make things look easy, did you have demos periodically go wrong that the audience just didn't see going wrong along the way? Or did you just actually YOLO all of your demos and got super lucky every single time for the last eight years?Kelsey: There was a musician who said, “Hey, your demos are like jazz. You improvise the whole thing.” There's no script, there's no video. The way I look at the demo is, like, you got this instrument, the command prompt, and the web browser. You can do whatever you want with them.Now, I have working code. I wrote the code, I wrote the deployment scenarios, I delete it all and I put it all back. And so, I know how it's supposed to work from the ground up. And so, what that means is if anything goes wrong, I can improvise. I could go into fixing the code. I can go into doing a redeploy.And I'll give you one good example. The first time Kubernetes came out, there was this small meetup in San Francisco with just the core contributors, right? So, there is no community yet, there's no conference yet, just people hacking on Kubernetes. And so, we decided, we're going to have the first Kubernetes meetup. And everyone got, like, six, seven minutes, max. That's it. You got to move.And so, I was like, “Hey, I noticed that in the lineup, there is no ‘What is Kubernetes?' talk. We're just getting into these nuts and bolts and I don't think that's fair to the people that will be watching this for the first time.” And I said, “All right, Kelsey, you should give maybe an intro to what it is.” I was like, “You know what I'll do? I'm going to build a Kubernetes cluster from the ground up, starting with VMs on my laptop.”And I'm in it and I'm feeling confident. So, confidence is the part that makes it look good, right? Where you're confident in the commands you type. One thing I learned to do is just use your history, just hit the up arrow instead of trying to copy all these things out. So, you hit the up arrow, you find the right command and you talk through it and no one looks at what's happening. You're cycling through the history.Or you have multiple tabs where you know the next up arrow is the right history. So, you give yourself shortcuts. And so, I'm halfway through this demo. We got three minutes left, and it doesn't work. Like, VMware is doing something weird on my laptop and there's a guy calling me off stage, like, “Hey, that's it. Cut it now. You're done.”I'm like, “Oh, nope. Thou shalt not go out like this.” It's time to improvise. And so, I said, “Hey, who wants to see me finish this?” And now everyone is locked in. It's dead silent. And I blow the whole thing away. I bring up the VMs, I [pixie 00:28:20] boot, I installed the kubelet, I install Docker. And everyone's clapping. And it's up, it's going, and I say, “Now, if all of this works, we run this command and it should start running the app.” And I do kubectl apply-f and it comes up and the place goes crazy.And I had more to the demo. But you stop. You've gotten the point across, right? This is what Kubernetes is, here's how it works, and look how you do it from scratch. And I remember saying, “And that's the end of my presentation.” You need to know when to stop, you need to know when to pivot, and you need to have confidence that it's supposed to work, and if you've seen it work a couple of times, your confidence is unshaken.And when I walked off that stage, I remember someone from Red Hat was like—Clayton Coleman; that's his name—Clayton Coleman walked up to me and said, “You planned that. You planned it to fail just like that, so you can show people how to go from scratch all the way up. That was brilliant.” And I was like, “Sure. That's exactly what I did.”Corey: “Yeah, I meant to do that.” I like that approach. I found there's always things I have to plan for in demos. For example, I can never count on having solid WiFi from a conference hall. The show has to go on. It's, okay, the WiFi doesn't work. I've at one point had to give a talk where the projector just wasn't working to a bunch of students. So okay, close the laptop. We're turning this into a bunch of question-and-answer sessions, and it was one of the better talks I've ever given.But the alternative is getting stuck in how you think a talk absolutely needs to go. Now, keynotes are a little harder where everything has been scripted and choreographed and at that point, I've had multiple fallbacks for demos that I've had to switch between. And people never noticed I was doing it for that exact reason. But it takes work to look polished.Kelsey: I will tell you that the last Next keynote I gave was completely irresponsible. No dry runs, no rehearsals, no table reads, no speaker notes. And I think there were 30,000 people at that particular Next. And Diane Greene was still CEO, and I remember when marketing was like, “Yo, at least a backup recording.” I was like, “Nah, I don't have anything.”And that demo was extensive. I mean, I was building an app from scratch, starting with Postgres, adding the schema, building an app, deploying the app. And something went wrong halfway. And there's this joke that I came up with just to pass over the time, they gave me a new Chromebook to do the demo. And so, it's not mine, so none of the default settings were there, I was getting pop-ups all over the place.And I came up with this joke on the way to the conference. I was like, “You know what'd be cool? When I show off the serverless stuff, I would just copy the code from Stack Overflow. That'd be like a really cool joke to say this is what senior engineers do.” And I go to Stack Overflow and it's getting all of these pop-ups and my mouse couldn't highlight the text.So, I'm sitting there like a deer in headlights in front of all of these people and I'm looking down, and marketing is, like, “This is what… this is what we're talking about.” And so, I'm like, “Man do I have to end this thing here?” And I remember I kept trying, I kept trying, and came to me. Once the mouse finally got in there and I cleared up all the popups, I just came up with this joke. I said, “Good developers copy.” And I switched over to my terminal and I took the text from Stack Overflow and I said, “Great developers paste,” and the whole room start laughing.And I had them back. And we kept going and continued. And at the end, there was like this Google Assistant, and when it was finished, I said, “Thank you,” to the Google Assistant and it was talking back through the live system. And it said, “I got to admit, that was kind of dope.” So, I go to the back and Diane Greene walks back there—the CEO of Google Cloud—and she pats me on the shoulder. “Kelsey, that was dope.”But it was the thrill because I had as much thrill as the people watching it. So, in real-time, I was going through all these emotions. But I think people forget, the demo is supposed to convey something. The demo is supposed to tell some story. And I've seen people overdo their demos with way too much code, way too many commands, almost if they're trying to show off their expertise versus telling a story. And so, when I think about the demo, it has to complement the entire narrative. And so, sometimes you don't need as many commands, you don't need as much code. You can keep things simple and that gives you a lot more ins and outs in case something does go crazy.Corey: And I think the key takeaway here that so many people lose sight of is you have to know the material well enough that whatever happens, well, things don't always go the way I planned during the day, either, and talking through that is something that I think serves as a good example. It feels like a bit more of a challenge when you're trying to demo something that a company is trying to sell someone, “Oh, yeah, it didn't work. But that's okay.” But I'm still reminded by probably one of the best conference demo fails I've ever seen on video. One day, someone was attempting to do a talk that hit Amazon S3 and it didn't work.And the audience started shouting at him that yeah, S3 is down right now. Because that was the big day that S3 took a nap for four hours. It was one of those foundational things you'd should never stop to consider. Like, well, what if the internet doesn't work tomorrow when I'm doing my demo? That's a tough one to work around. But rough timing.Kelsey: [breathy sound]Corey: He nailed the rest of the talk, though. You keep going. That's the thing that people miss. They get stuck in the demo that isn't working, they expect the audience knows as much as they do about what's supposed to happen next. You're the one up there telling a story. People forget it's storytelling.Kelsey: Now, I will be remiss to say, I know that the demo gods have been on my side for, like, ten, maybe fifteen years solid. So, I retired from doing live demos. This is why I just don't do them anymore. I know I'm overdue as an understatement. But the thing I've learned though, is that what I found more impressive than the live demo is to be able to convey the same narratives through story alone. No slides. No demo. Nothing. But you can still make people feel where you would try to go with that live demo.And it's insanely hard, especially for technologies people have never seen before. But that's that new challenge that I kind of set up for myself. So, if you see me at a keynote and you've noticed why I've been choosing these fireside chats, it's mainly because I'm also trying to increase my ability to share narrative, technical concepts, but now in a new form. So, this new storytelling format through the fireside chat has been my substitute for the live demo, normally because I think sometimes, unless there's something really to show that people haven't seen before, the live demo isn't as powerful to me. Once the thing is kind of known… the live demo is kind of more of the same. So, I think they really work well when people literally have never seen the thing before, but outside of that, I think you can kind of move on to, like, real-life scenarios and narratives that help people understand the fundamentals and the philosophy behind the tech.Corey: An awful lot of tools and tech that we use on a day-to-day basis as well are thankfully optimized for the people using them and the ergonomics of going about your day. That is orthogonal, in my experience, to looking very impressive on stage. It's the rare company that can have a product that not only works well but also presents well. And that is something I don't tend to index on when I'm selecting a tool to do something with. So, it's always a question of how can I make this more visually entertaining? For while I got out of doing demos entirely, just because talking about things that have more staying power than a screenshot that is going to wind up being irrelevant the next week when they decide to redo the console for some service yet again.Kelsey: But you know what? That was my secret to doing software products and projects. When I was at CoreOS, we used to have these meetups we would used to do every two weeks or so. So, when we were building things like etcd, Fleet was a container management platform that came before Kubernetes, we would always run through them as a user, start install them, use them, and ask how does it feel? These command line flags, they don't feel right. This isn't a narrative you can present with the software alone.But once we could, then the meetups were that much more engaging. Like hey, have you ever tried to distribute configuration to, like, a thousand servers? It's insanely hard. Here's how you do with Puppet. But now I'm going to show you how you do with etcd. And then the narrative will kind of take care of itself because the tool was positioned behind what people would actually do with it versus what the tool could do by itself.Corey: I think that's the missing piece that most marketing doesn't seem to quite grasp is, they talk about the tool and how awesome it is, but that's why I love customer demos so much. They're showing us how they use a tool to solve a real-world problem. And honestly, from my snarky side of the world and the attendant perspective there, I can make an awful lot of fun about basically anything a company decides to show me, but put a customer on stage talking about how whatever they've built is solving a real-world problem for them, that's the point where I generally shut up and listen because I'm going to learn something about a real-world story. Because you don't generally get to tell customers to go on stage and just make up a story that makes us sound good, and have it come off with any sense of reality whatsoever. I haven't seen that one happen yet, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere.Kelsey: I don't know how many founders or people building companies listen in to your podcast, but this is right now, I think the number one problem that especially venture-backed startups have. They tend to have great technology—maybe it's based off some open-source project—with tons of users who just know how that tool works, it's just an ingredient into what they're already trying to do. But that isn't going to ever be your entire customer base. Soon, you'll deal with customers who don't understand the thing you have and they need more than technology, right? They need a product.And most of these companies struggle painting that picture. Here's what you can do with it. Or here's what you can't do now, but you will be able to do if you were to use this. And since they are missing that, a lot of these companies, they produce a lot of code, they ship a lot of open-source stuff, they raise a lot of capital, and then it just goes away, it fades out over time because they can bring on no newcomers. The people who need help the most, they don't have a narrative for them, and so therefore, they're just hoping that the people who have all the skills in the world, the early adopters, but unfortunately, those people are tend to be the ones that don't actually pay. They just kind of do it themselves. It's the people who need the most help.Corey: How do we monetize the bleeding edge of adoption? In many cases you don't. They become your community if you don't hug them to death first.Kelsey: Exactly.Corey: Ugh. None of this is easy. I really want to thank you for taking the time to catch up and talk about how you seen the remains of a career well spent, and now you're going off into that glorious sunset. But I have a sneaking suspicion you'll still be around. Where should people go if they want to follow up on what you're up to these days?Kelsey: Right now I still use… I'm going to keep calling it Twitter.Corey: I agree.Kelsey: I kind of use that for my real-time interactions. And I'm still attending conferences, doing fireside chats, and just meeting people on those conference floors. But that's what where I'll be for now. So yeah, I'll still be around, but maybe not as deep. And I'll be spending more time just doing normal life stuff, maybe less building software.Corey: And we will, of course, put a link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to catch up and share your reflections on how the industry is progressing.Kelsey: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Corey.Corey: Kelsey Hightower, now gloriously retired. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that you're going to type on stage as part of a conference talk, and then accidentally typo all over yourself while you're doing it.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Bon dia, com anem? avui parlem de com he après francès durant els últims mesos, per què i com em sento en aquesta llengua ara mateix. Si t'interessa o parles francès, pots anar a veure el meu últim vídeo al YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKqtT0SQZAc Espero que t'agradi! Com em pots ajudar? Subscriu-te al meu canal de YouTube aquí. Hi trobaràs, entre altres coses, una llista de reproducció amb més de 60 vídeos per aprendre català, sempre amb l'opció d'activar els subtítols en català o en anglès (enllaç aquí). Per donar-me altres idees pel podcast, també em pots deixar un missatge aquí. Per comprar-me un cafè a Ko-Fi i ajudar-me a continuar amb aquest projecte, ves aquí. Si em vols ajudar, pots compartir el meu contingut o donar-me suport a Patreon. Una novetat important! A Patreon també hi trobaràs transcripcions del podcast. També em pots escriure un missatge a l'instagram. Moltes gràcies a l'Oskar per la música de fons (https://www.studionystrom.se) Espero que sigui interessant! Fins aviat, que vagi bé! Laura

PoGo City Radio is recapping yesterday's Blanks 77 The Mesos The Whisky Bats, Rubix Pube show! We are also getting ready for next weeks trip to Boston for the Unseen reunion! On top of that Cali's C.Y. fest is only 6 weeks away! Be sure to check out our new online home http://pogocityhq.com show your support and click the PoGo Shop, link and buy a PoGo shirt or mug! Wanna help out but don't have the cash??? Then press share!!!  Playing tracks from the Dwarves, the Unseen, Blanks 77, The Mesos, Defiance, Spiky Tops, The Casualties and the Devotchkas! Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok @PoGoCityRadio!

Tony Jones Show #231 - With music from: The Devil's Twins, Deer Tick, Sunshine Riot, Weld Square, Damnation, Consuelo's Revenge, Castle Black, The Mesos, Little Billy Lost, The Dust Ruffles, Atlantic Thrills, The Dimwits, The Ducky Boys, The Chelsea Curve, Nervous Eaters, 61 Ghosts

In this episode Andrew Bedlam, talks about the Dwarves NYC trip! Plus The new Parasitix split on PoGo City Records, is finally ready! We'll be playing trascks from the record and more tracks from bands like: the Mesos, Blanks 77, RAMONES, Bolo 1037, the War Lovers and more! Subscribe to PoGo City Radio's YouTube Follow us on Instagram @PoGoCityRadio Like Us On Facebook @PoGoCityRadio

Tony Jones Show #226 - With music from: Sunshine Riot, The Devil's Twins, Damone, The Dust Ruffles, Glory Days, Only on Weekends, Jonee Earthquake Band, Muzzins, The Mesos, The Maybes?, Reverend Bastien, Willie Alexander and the Boom Boom Band, Bobcat, Sasquatch and the Sick-a-Billys, Jenn Vix

Dominic Holt is CEO of harpoon, a drag-and-drop Kubernetes tool for deploying any software in seconds. Victoria talks to Dominic about commoditizing DevOps as a capability, coming up with the idea for drag and drop just thinking through how he could do these things in a visual and intuitive way, and using Kubernetes as a base for Harpoon. Harpoon (https://www.harpoon.io/) Follow Harpoon on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/harpothewhale/), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/harpooncorp/). Follow Dominic Holt on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicholt/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/xReapz). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dominic Holt, CEO of harpoon, a drag-and-drop Kubernetes tool for deploying any software in seconds. Dominic, thank you for joining me. DOMINIC: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me, Victoria. VICTORIA: Yes, I'm really excited to talk all about what Kubernetes is. And I have Joe Ferris, the CTO of thoughtbot, here with me as well to help me in that process. JOE: Hello. VICTORIA: Excellent. Okay, so, Dominic, why don't you just tell me how it all got started? What led you to start harpoon? DOMINIC: I got into the DevOps space fairly early. It was, I don't know, probably 2012 timeframe, which sounds like not that long ago. But, I mean, DevOps is also still a baby. So I have a software background. And I was starting to figure out how to do the continuous; I guess, automated way of standing up cloud infrastructure for Lockheed Martin at the time because people didn't know how to do that. There weren't a lot of tools available, and nobody knew what DevOps was. And if you said it to somebody, they would have slapped you. VICTORIA: Aggressive. [laughs] DOMINIC: [laughs] Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe they'd be nicer about it. But anyway, nobody knew what DevOps was because it wasn't coined yet. And I started realizing that this was not some system administration voodoo. It was just common sense from a software development standpoint. And I ended up leaving Lockheed shortly thereafter and going and working for a small business here in San Diego. And I said, I have no idea what any of this stuff is, but we're going to do it because, in a few years, everybody's going to be doing it because it's common sense. So we did. We grew quite a large practice in consulting and DevOps, among other things. And predominantly, I was working with the U.S. Navy at the time, and they needed a standardized way to deploy software to aircraft carriers and destroyers, the ships out there in the ocean. And so, I came up with a design for them that used Kubernetes. And we built a pipeline, a CI/CD pipeline, to automatically deploy software from the cloud to Navy ships out in the ocean on top of Kubernetes. And everything worked great. And it was there, and we tested it. But at the end of the day, handing over the maintenance, what we call day two ops, proved to be troubling. And it never quite made it onto the ships in the way that we wanted. So after that, I did a bunch of consulting with other groups in the Navy, and the Air Force, and Space Force, and all kinds of different groups across the government. And I also started consulting in commercial, fortune 500, startups, everything. And I just saw that this problem was really pervasive, handling the day two operations. You get everything up and running, but then maintaining it after that was just complicated for people because all of the DevOps implementations are snowflakes. So if you go from Company A to Company B, they look nothing alike. And they may have a lot to do with somebody named Jim or Frank or Bob and how they thought was the best way to do it. And so, running a DevOps consultancy myself, I just knew how hard it was to find the talent, and how expensive they were, and how hard it was to keep them because everyone else was trying to hire my talent all the time. And I just thought to myself, all of this is completely untenable. Somebody is going to commoditize DevOps as a capability. And what would that look like? VICTORIA: Right. I'm familiar with the demand for people who know how to build the infrastructure and systems for deploying and running software. [laughs] And I like how you first talked about DevOps, just it being common sense. And I remember feeling that way when I went to my first DevOps DC meetup. I was like, oh, this is how you're supposed to build teams and organizations in a way to run things efficiently and apply those principles from building software to managing your infrastructure. DOMINIC: Yeah. Well, I had lived the life of an enterprise software developer for quite a while before then. And I had gone through that whole process they talk about in all of DevOps bibles about why it is we're doing this, where the software development team would have their nice, fancy dev laptops. And the operations team with the pagers or whatever would be the ones managing the servers. And the software developers were never really sure exactly how it was going to work in production, but were like; I'm just going to throw it over the fence and see what the ops people do. And inevitably, the ops people would call us very angrily, and they would say, "Your software doesn't work." And then, of course, we would say that the ops people are all crazy because it works just fine here on my laptop, and they just don't know what they're doing. And, I mean, we would just fight back and forth about this for six months until somebody figured out that we were running the wrong version of some dependency in the software on the ops side, and that's why it didn't work. So that process is just crazy, and nobody in their right mind would want to go through it if they could avoid it. VICTORIA: Right. I'm sure Joe has had some stories from his time at thoughtbot. JOE: Yeah, certainly. I was interested by what you said about working with...I think it was Frank, and Ted, and Bob. I've definitely worked with all those people in their own snowflakes. And one of the things that drew me to Kubernetes is that it was an attempt to standardize at least some of the approaches or at least provide anchor points for things like how you might implement networking, and routing, and so on. I'm interested to hear, you know, for a drag-and-drop solution, even though Kubernetes was meant to standardize a lot of things, there are a lot of different Kubernetes distributions. And I think there are still a lot of Kubernetes snowflakes. I'm curious how you manage to tackle that problem with a drag-and-drop solution to hit the different Kubernetes distributions out there. DOMINIC: Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it, Joe. Standing up Kubernetes is a little bit complicated still these days. It's been made a lot easier by a lot of different companies, and products, and open-source software, and things like that. And so I see a lot of people getting up basic Kubernetes clusters these days. But then you look at companies like ARMO that are doing compliance scans and security scans on Kubernetes clusters, and they're making the claim that 100% of the Kubernetes clusters they scan are non-compliant [laughs] and have security issues. And so that just goes to show you all of the things that one has to know to be successful just to stand up a cluster in the first place. And even when I...like for a client or something, over the years, if I was standing up a Kubernetes cluster and a lot of it was automated, you know, we used Terraform and Ansible, and all the other best practices under the hood. A lot of the response I got back when we handed over a cluster to a client was, "Okay, now what?" There are still a lot of things you have to learn to maintain that cluster, keep it up to date, upgrade the underlying components of the cluster, deploy the software, configure the software, all those things. And can you learn these things? Absolutely. Like, they're not rocket science, but they're complicated. And it is a commitment that you have to make as an individual if you're going to become proficient in all of these things and managing your own cluster. And so we were just...we had done this so many times at different companies I had worked with, for different clients, and seeing how all of the different pieces work together and where clients were having problems and what really hung people up. And so I just started thinking to myself, how would you make that easier? How would you make that more available to the pizza guy or an 18-year-old with no formal training that's on a ship in the ocean? And that's why I came up with the idea for drag and drop, just thinking through how can I do these things in a visual way that is going to be intuitive for people? VICTORIA: Well, I have, obviously, a very thorough understanding of Kubernetes, [laughs] just kidding. But maybe explain a little bit more about to a founder why should they invest in this type of approach when they're building products? DOMINIC: So I think that's a great question. What I find these days is DevOps is almost a requirement to do business these days in some sort of nimble way. So you have to...whether you're a large enterprise or you're a garage startup, you need to be able to change your software to market forces, to stuff that's happening in the news, to your customers don't like something. So you want to change it to something else quickly or pivot because if something happens, you can get your day in the sun, or you can capitalize on something that's happening. And so the difficulty is I think a lot of people have an impression that DevOps scripts are sort of like a build once and forget type of thing, and it'll just work thereafter. But it's actually software, and I like to think of software as living organisms. You have to take care of them like they're people, almost because if you don't, they'll become brittle and unhealthy over time. If you have a child, you have to feed them probably multiple times a day, brush their teeth. You got to tuck them in at night. You have to be nice to them. You have to do all the things that you would do with a child. But with software as well, if you just take the quick route, and quick fix things, and hack, and take shortcuts, eventually, you're going to have a very unhealthy child on your hands, and they're going to have behavior problems. At the end of the day, you have all these DevOps scripts, and they can be quite complex together. And you have to take care of them like they're your own child. And the problem is you're also taking care of your software products like it's your child. And so now you're taking care of two children. And as somebody that has two children, I can tell you that things become much more complicated when two children are having behavioral problems than just one. And you're at the store, and it's very embarrassing. So I guess the point is that harpoon is a capability that can basically take care of your second child for you, which is your DevOps deployments. And then you can just focus on the one child that you, I mean, this is turning into a terrible analogy at this point. [laughter] But you should love all of your children equally. But, in this case, you're looking to take care of your products and get it out there, and harpoon is something that can take care of your DevOps software for you. VICTORIA: I agree. I think when your software or children are problematic, it's more than just embarrassing sometimes. It can create a lot of financial and legal liability as well. From your research, when you're building this product and, like, who's going to be interested in buying this thing, is that something that people are concerned about? DOMINIC: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the fact that we can stand up your cluster for you, stand up all of your cloud infrastructure for you, and then dynamically generate all of the configuration as code as well, and how to open those things securely up to the network and control everything such that you're not going to accidentally do something that's really bad, can definitely help out a lot of people. The interest has been really overwhelming from so many different groups and organizations. We have people that are interested in the Department of Defense in both the U.S. and other countries. We have fortune 500 companies that see this as a pathway to accelerate digital transformation for legacy applications or even to use it as a sandbox, so people aren't bugging Frank, and Joe, and Bob, who run the Kubernetes clusters in production. We have startups who see it just as a way to skip over the whole DevOps thing and work on getting a product-market fit so that they have a production environment that just works out of the box. So it's been really interesting seeing all the different use cases people are using harpoon for and how it's helped them in some way get to some and realize some goal that they have. JOE: I'm curious if it's been a challenge as somebody managing the underlying infrastructure as sort of a plug-and-play thing. One experience I've had working more on the operations side of DevOps is that everything becomes your problem. Like, if the server misbehaves, if there's a database crash, whatever, certainly, that's your problem. But also, if the application is murdering your database, that becomes your problem. And it's really an application problem. But it surfaces visibly in the infrastructure when the CPU spikes and it stops responding to requests. And so, how do you navigate that agreement with your users? How do you balance what's your responsibility versus theirs to not kill the cluster? DOMINIC: One thing that's great about Kubernetes and why it's a great base for our product is that Kubernetes is really good at keeping things running. Certainly, there are catastrophic things that can happen, like an entire region of EC2 and Amazon Web Services goes down. And that is, obviously, if you have your clusters only running in that particular region, you're going to have a bad day. So there are things beyond our control. I mean, those things are also covered by the service-level agreement, the SLA with AWS, since you're using your own AWS account when you're utilizing harpoon. So it's like a hybrid SaaS where we deploy everything into your account, and you own it. And you can adjust those infrastructure things on your own as you'd like. So from that standpoint, you're kind of covered with your agreement with AWS as an example of a cloud service provider. And certainly, Kubernetes also kind of knows what to do in some of those instances where you have a container that is murdering everything. In a lot of cases, it can be configured to, you know, just die or go into a CrashLoopBackOff or something if it's just taking up all your resources in the cluster versus destroying your entire cluster in a great fireworks display. So we put some of those protections into the platform as well. But yeah, to your point, being an ops person is a difficult job because we're usually the ones [laughs] that get blamed for everything when something bad happens, even though sometimes it's the software team's fault or sometimes it's even just the infrastructure you're built on. Occasionally, AWS services and Google Cloud and Azure services do go down, and things happen. We've had instances, even during harpoon development, where we're testing harpoon late at night on AWS, and sometimes AWS does wonky things at night that people don't realize. It's not completely perfect capability. And we're like, oh, why does it only happen at 11:58 on Tuesdays? Oh, because AWS updates their servers during that time, and it slows down everything. It's still good to understand all the underlying components and how they work, and that could certainly help you regardless of if you use harpoon or not. But ultimately, we're just trying to make it easier for people. They can spend less time focusing on those things. We can help them with a lot of those problems that might occur, and they can focus on their software. VICTORIA: Great. I think that's...it's interesting to me to always hear about all the different challenges in managing operations of software. So I like that you're working on this space. It's clearly a space that needs more innovation, you know, we're working on it here at thoughtbot as well. Has there been anything in your, like, any theory that you had going into your initial research that when you talked to customers surprised you and caused you to change your direction? DOMINIC: Yeah. I mean, we run the gamut there. So we did a lot of early customer discovery to try to figure out who might be interested in this product. And so, our first thought was that startups would be the most interested in this product because they're building something new. They just want to get it out there. They want to build their MVP, and they just want to throw it on the internet and get it rolling and not have to worry about whether the software is up and down while they're doing a bunch of sales calls. Because really, during the MVP phase, if you're doing lean startup-style company development, then you really just want to be selling. You want to always be selling. And so we thought it would just be a no-brainer for startups. And we talked to a lot of startups, and some startups for sure thought it was valuable. But a lot of them were like, "Yeah, that's cool, but we don't care about DevOps. [chuckles] We don't care about anything. Like, I'll run it on my laptop if I have to. The only thing I care about is finding product-market fit and getting that first sale." And so, at least as far as the very first customers that we were looking for, they weren't the best fit. And then we went and talked to a bunch of mid-market companies because we just decided to go up to the next logical level. And so mid-market companies were very interested because a lot of them were starting to eyeball Kubernetes and maybe sort of migrate some of their capabilities over there. Maybe they had a little bit of ability to be a bit nimble, in that sense, versus some of the enterprise customers. And so they were very interested in it. But a lot of them were very risk averse, like, go find a bunch of enterprise customers that will buy it, and then we'll buy it. And so then we went to talk to the enterprise customers. And that was sort of like an eye-opening time for us because the enterprise customers just got it. They were like, "Yeah, I'm trying to migrate legacy capabilities we built 10 or 15 years ago to the cloud. We're trying to containerize everything and refactor our existing software. I got to redesign the user interface that was built ten years ago." And if somebody's got a DevOps easy button, then sign me up. I would like to participate because I can't spell Kubernetes yet, but I definitely know what it is, and I want to use it. So working with the enterprise customers was really great for us because it showed us what the appetite was in the market and who was going to immediately benefit from it. And then, ultimately, that rolls down to the mid-market companies. And maybe later-stage startups as well are starting to find a lot of value in the platform from, you know, have maybe started finding some product-market fit and care a little bit about whether people can access my software and it's maintainable and available. And so we can definitely help with that. VICTORIA: That's super interesting, and it aligns with my experience as well, coming from consulting companies and the federal government who are working on digital services, and DevOps, and agile, and all of those transformational activities. And so it's been five years, it looks like since you started harpoon. What advice would you give to yourself if you could travel back in time when you were first starting the project? DOMINIC: So I made lots of mistakes along the way. I'll inevitably make more. But when I first started building this thing, I wasn't even sure how it was going to work. Kubernetes can be a bit of a fickle beast, and it wasn't really built to have a drag-and-drop UI on top of it. And so there are lots of things that could go wrong, trust me, [laughs] I learned them. But building an initial prototype, like, the very base of can the capability work at all, came together pretty quickly. It was maybe three or four months of development during my nights and weekends. And building an enterprise scalable product took quite a bit longer. But once I had an initial capability, I was very excited because, again, I didn't even know if this was possible, certainly not five or six years ago. So I didn't even really want to raise a round or make money. I do know how venture capital works. So it wasn't even my expectation that people would want to give me money because all I had was an MVP and no product-market fit. And I had just thrown it together in three or four months. But I was just excited about it. I'm a software developer at heart, and technology excites me. And solving problems is kind of what gets me up in the morning. So I just called all the people I knew, a bunch of VCs, other people, and they're like, "Yeah, I would like to see that. Let's set up a time." And so I think maybe they interpreted that as, like, I want to do a pitch to you for money. [laughs] And I just proceeded to go to, like, this dog and pony show of showing a bunch of people this thing I built, and I thought they would just understand it and get what I was doing. And I just proceeded to get my ass handed to me over and over and over again. Like, "This isn't that great of a product. How much money are you making?" Blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "No, no, you don't get it. I just started. It's just a prototype at this stage. It's not even a finished product." And they're like, "Well, you're definitely going to fail. [laughter] You're wasting your time. What are you even doing here?" And so that was...I like to think that I have thick skin, but that's hard to hear as an entrepreneur; just people don't get your vision. They don't understand what it is you're building and why it's going to be valuable to people. And it could be a long time before you get to a point where people can even understand what it is you're doing, and you just have to sort of stay the course and, I mean, I did. I went around on some rock somewhere and hung out in a tent on an island for a while. I just kept going. And you just got to pour all your heart and soul, and effort into building a product if you want to make it exist out there in the world. And a lot of people are not going to get it, but as long as you believe in it and you keep pushing, then maybe someday they will get it. For the first year after we had a working enterprise-grade product, we kind of did a soft launch. And we had a small set of customers. We had 8 to 10 people that were sort of testing it out and using it, things like that. We kind of went, you know, more gangbusters launch at the end of last year, and it was crazy. And then...what? I don't know, maybe 60 days since we did a more serious launch. And we have gone from our ten soft users to 2,000 users. VICTORIA: Wow. Well, that's great growth. And it sounds exciting that you have your team in place now. You're able to set yourself up for growth. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops VICTORIA: So now that you're getting more established, you're getting more customers, you have a team supporting you on the project; what parts of the DevOps culture do you feel like are really important to making a team that will continue to grow? DOMINIC: I've been an individual contributor for a long period of time. I was a first-level manager and managed people. At a very granular personal level, I've been a director, and a VP, and a CTO at a bunch of different places. And so all of those different roles and different companies that I've worked at have taught me a lot about people, and teams, and culture, and certainly about hiring. I think hiring is the absolute most important thing you can do in a company, and definitively in a software company. Because there are just certain people that are going to mesh well with your culture, and the people that do and that are driven and passionate about what they do, they're just going to drive your company forward. And so I just spend a lot of my time when we need to grow as a company, which happens here and there, really focusing on who is going to be the best next person to bring on to the company. And usually, I'm thinking about this far in advance because whenever we do need that person, I don't want to have to start thinking about it. I want to just know, like, it is Frank, it is Bob, it is Jamey, or Alex, or whoever else. Because it is...at a personal level, there has to be people who are very aligned with your visions, and your values, and your culture, and they care and are going to push the company forward. And if you're just hiring people with a quick coding interview and a 30-minute culture fit session, you're going to make a lot of hiring mistakes. You're going to find people who are just looking for a nine-to-five or things like that, and, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But in a startup especially, you really need people who buy into the vision and who are going to push the thing forward. And I'm looking for people who just care, like; they have an ownership mentality. Maybe in a different lifetime or a different part of their career, they'd be an entrepreneur at their own company. But you just give them stuff, and they're like, cool, this is mine. I'm going to take care of this. It's now my child. I will make sure that it grows up and it is healthy and goes to a good university. Those are the type of people that you want in your company, people that you would trust with your children. So those are the criteria for working at harpoon, I guess. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's good. So what does success look like in the next six months or even beyond the next five years? DOMINIC: I think it's still very early market for us. Certainly, we have an explosive growth of users using the platform, and that's really heartening to see. That's really awesome that people want to use the thing that you built. But again, there are so many companies out there and organizations that are still not even doing DevOps. They're just doing manual deployments, maintaining clusters manually, not using containers or Kubernetes. Not to say that you have to use these things and that they're a panacea, and they work in every sense because they don't. But obviously, there's been a major shift in the industry towards containers and container orchestration like Kubernetes. Even some of the serverless platforms that people like to use are actually backed by Kubernetes, so you see a major shift in that direction. But there are still so many different companies and organizations that, again, are still locked into legacy ways of doing things and manually doing things. There are companies that are trying to get their products off the ground, and they're looking for faster and easier, and cheaper ways to do that. And I think that's what's really exciting about harpoon is we can help these companies. We can help them be more successful. We can help them migrate to things that are more modern and agile. We can help them get their product off the ground faster or more reliably. And so that's kind of what excites me. But you know what? We do a lot of demos, you know, sales demos and things like that. And, really, we don't have PowerPoints. We're just like, cool, this is the app, and this is how you use it. And it is so simplistic to use, even though Kubernetes is quite complicated, that the demo goes pretty quick. We're talking five, six minutes if there are not a lot of questions. And we always get exactly the same response, whether somebody is not super familiar with Kubernetes or they are familiar with Kubernetes, and they've set up their own cluster. It's almost always, "Wow," and then a pause, and then "But how do I know it works?" [laughs] So there's going be a lot of work for us in educating people out there that there is an easier way to do DevOps now, that you can do drag and drop DevOps and dynamically generate all of your scripts and configuration, and open up networks, and deploy load balancers, and all the other things that you would need to do with Kubernetes, literally in a few minutes just dragging and dropping things. So there's going to be a lot of education that just goes into saying, "Hey, there's a new market, and this is what it is. And this is how it compares to the manual processes people are using out there. Here's how it compares to some of the other tools that are more incremental in nature." And trust, you know, over time, people are going to have to use the platform and see that it works and talk to other people and be like, yeah, I deployed my software on harpoon, and nothing terrible happened. Demons didn't come out of the walls, and my software kept running, and no meteors crashed in my house. So it's just going to take some time for us to really grow and build the education around that market to show that it's possible and that it exists, and it can be an option for you. VICTORIA: Right. I used to do a lot of intro to DevOps talks with Women Who Code and DevOps DC. And I would describe Kubernetes as a way to keep your kubes neat, and your kube is where your software lives. It's a little house that keeps the doors locked and things like that. Do you have another way to kind of explain what is Kubernetes? Like, how do you kind of even just get people started on what DevOps is? DOMINIC: I like to usually use the cattle story. [laughs] So, in DevOps, they have these concepts of immutable infrastructure or immutable architecture. And so when you have virtual machines, which is what people have been running on for quite a while, certainly some people still run on bare metal servers, but pretty much everybody's got on board with virtualization at this point, and so most software these days is at least running on virtual machines. And so the difficulty with virtual machines is, I mean, there's nothing wrong with them, but they're kind of like pets. They exist for long periods of time. They have what we call state drift, and that's just the changing of the data or the state of the virtual machine over time. And even if I were to kill off that virtual machine and start another one, it wouldn't be exactly the same one. It wouldn't be, you know, fluffy. It would be a clone of fluffy. And maybe it wouldn't have the same personality, and it wouldn't do exactly the same things. And sometimes that might be good; maybe fluffy was a terrible dog. But in other cases, you're like, oh crap, I needed that snowflake feature that Bob built three years ago. And Bob has been hit by a train, so people can't ask Bob anymore. And so what then really happens at these organizations is when the virtual machines start acting up, they don't kill them. They take them to the vet. They take care of them. They pet them. They tell them they're a good boy. And you have entire enterprises that are super dependent on these virtual machines staying alive. And so that's no way to run your business. And so that's one of the reasons why people started switching over to containers because the best practices in containers is to build software that's immutable. So if you destroy or kill one of your containers, you can start another one. And it should work exactly the same as before, and that's because when you build your containers, you can't change them unless you rebuild them. I mean, there are ways to do it, but people will wave their finger angrily at you if you try to do that because it's not a best practice. So, at the end of the day, virtual machines are pets, and the containers are cattle. And when containers start acting up, you kill them. And you take them to the meat factory, and you go get another one. And so this provides a ton of value from a software development and an ops perspective because anytime you have a problem, you just kill your containers, start new ones, and you're off to the races again. And it significantly reduces the troubleshooting time when you're having problems. Obviously, you probably want to log things and check into things; why did that happen? So that maybe you can go make a fix in your software. But at the end of the day, you want to keep your ops running. Containers are a great way to do that without having to be up at midnight figuring out why the virtual machine is acting up. And so the difficulty with cattle is they like to graze and wander and break through fences and things like that. And mostly, when you have an enterprise software application or even just a startup with an MVP, you probably have multiple containers that you need to run and build this application. And so you need somebody to orchestrate. You need somebody to wrangle your containers. And so Kubernetes, I like to say, is like cowboys. Like, they're the ones that wrangle your cattle and make sure they're all going in the right direction and doing the right things. And so it just makes natural sense. Like, if you have a bunch of cattle, you need somebody to take care of them, so that's what Kubernetes does. JOE: Yeah, just to add to that, one of the things I really like about Kubernetes is that it's declarative versus prescriptive. So if you look at a lot of the older DevOps tools like Chef, things like that, you're effectively telling the machine what you want it to do to end up with a particular deployment. With containers, you'd say, start this number of containers on this node. Start this number of containers on this node. Add a virtual machine with these. Whereas with Kubernetes, you state the way you would like the world to be, and then Kubernetes' job is to make the world like that. So from a developer's perspective, when they're deploying things, they don't actually usually want to think in terms of the steps involved between I push this code, and somebody can use it. What they want us to say is I want this code running in containers, and I would like it to have this configuration. I would like it to have these ports exposed. And I love that Kubernetes, to a pretty good extent, abstracts away all of those steps and just lets you say what you want. DOMINIC: Yeah, that's a lot of the power in Kubernetes. You just say, "This is what I want, and then make it so." And Kubernetes goes out and figures out where it's going to schedule your container on what node or server if it dies. Kubernetes is like; I'm pretty sure you wanted one of those running, so I'm going to run it again. It just handles a lot of those things for you that previously you would need somebody with a pager to call to fix. And Kubernetes is automating a lot of that deployment and maintenance for you. VICTORIA: Right. And it seems like there's the movement to really coalesce around Kubernetes. I wonder if either of you can speak to the healthiness of the ecosystem for Kubernetes, which is open source, and why you chose to build on it. DOMINIC: So there was sort of a bit of a container orchestration war for a while. There was a bunch of different options. And I'm not saying that a lot of them weren't good options. Like, Docker built a capability called Swarm, and it's fairly simple to use and pretty powerful. But there was just a lot of backing from the open-source community behind Kubernetes when Google made it an open-source project. There were other things sort of like Kubernetes but not really like Mesos. And they all had like this huge bloodbath to see who was going to be the winner. And I just feel like Kubernetes kind of pulled ahead. It was a really smart move from Google to make it open-source and get the open-source community's buy-in to use. And it just became a very powerful but complex tool for running your software in production. Google had been using some form of that called Google Borg for a number of years prior. And I'm guessing they're still quite a bit different. But that's how it kind of came about. Do you have anything to add, Joe? JOE: I'd say that I judge the winner or the health of an ecosystem by the health of the off-the-shelf and open-source software that can run on that system. So Kubernetes is a thing that you use yourself. You build things to run on it. But also, you can pick and choose many things from the community that people have already built. And there is a huge open-source community for components that run on Kubernetes, everything from CI/CD to managing databases to doing interesting deployment styles like canary deployments. That's really healthy. It just didn't happen with the other systems like Swarm or Nomad was another one. And most of the other companies that I saw doing container orchestration eventually just changed to doing their flavor of Kubernetes, like Rancher. I forget what their original platform was called. But their whole thing was based on that cattle metaphor. [chuckles] And they took a pretty similar approach to containers. And now, if you ask somebody what Rancher is, they'll tell you it's a managed Kubernetes platform. DOMINIC: Yeah, I think it's called Longhorn, so they very much have the cattle theme in there. I mean, they're literally called Rancher, so there you go. But yeah, at the end of the day, something is going to come after Kubernetes as well. And I like to think that it's not so much a matter of what's going to be next? Is there going to be something beyond containers or container orchestrators like Kubernetes? I just think there are going to be more and more layers of abstraction because, at the end of the day, look at the advent of things like ChatGPT and generative AI. People just want to get their jobs done more efficiently and faster. And in software, there's just a lot of time and money that goes into getting software running and keeping it running, and that's why Kubernetes makes sense. But then there's also a lot of time that goes into Kubernetes. And so we think that harpoon is just sort of the natural next layer of abstraction that's going to live on as the next thing. So if 15 years ago I told you I was going to build a web application and I was going to go run it in the cloud, maybe you would have said, "You're crazy, Dom. Like, how could you trust this guy, Jeff, with all your software? What if he is going to steal it? And what if he can't run a data center? What then?" And now, if I told you I was going to go build a data center because I want to build a web application, you would look at me like I was a pariah and that I was not fit to run a company and that I should just use the cloud. So I think it's the same process. We're going to go with containers and Kubernetes. And software deployment, in general, is going to be an abstraction layer that lives on top of all that because software developers and companies just want to push out good software to end users. And any sort of way to make that more efficient or more fun is going to be embraced eventually. JOE: Yeah, I agree with that. I hear people ask, "What are you going to do when Kubernetes is obsolete?" pretty often. And I think it's achieved enough momentum that it won't be. I think it'll be what else is built on top of Kubernetes? Like, people talk about servers like they're obsolete, but they're not; there are still servers. People are just running virtual machines on them. And virtual machines are not obsolete. We'll just run containers on them. So once we get beyond the layer of worrying about containers, you'll still need a container platform. And based on the momentum it's achieved, I think that platform is going to be Kubernetes. VICTORIA: Technology never dies. You just get more different types of technology. [laughs] Usually, that's my philosophy on that. DOMINIC: Yeah, I mean, there's never been a better time to be a software developer, especially if you're an entrepreneur at the same time, because that's what happens over time. Like, what we're achieving with web applications today and what you can push out to the internet and kind of judge if there's a market for would have been unimaginable 20 years ago because, again, you would have had to build a data center. [laughs] And who has a bunch of tens of millions of dollars sitting around to do that? So now you can just use existing software from other people and glue it together. And you can use the cloud and deploy your software and get it out to the masses and scale it. And it's an amazing time to be alive and to be building things for people. VICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned a few things like artificial intelligence before, and there are a lot of people innovating in that space, which requires a lot of data, and networking, and security, and other types of things that you want to think about if you're trying to invent that kind of product. Which brings me to a question I have around, you know when you're adding that abstraction layer to these Kubernetes clusters, how does that factor into security compliance frameworks? And does that even come up with the customers who want to use your product? DOMINIC: Yeah. I mean, definitely, people are concerned about security. When we do infrastructure as code for your virtual infrastructure that's running your Kubernetes cluster that we deploy for you, certainly, we're using best practices from a security standpoint. We do all the same things. If we're building out custom scripts for some clients somewhere, we'd want it to be secure. And we want to lock down different aspects of components that we're building and not just expose all the ports on maybe a load balancer and things like that. So by default, we try to build in as much security as we can. It's pragmatic. I think ultimately we'll probably go down to the path of SOC 2 compliance, and then anything that goes on top of a harpoon cluster or that is deployed with harpoon will be SOC 2 compliant to a large degree. And so yeah, I mean, security is definitely a part of it. We're currently building in a lot of other security features, too, like role-based access control and zero trust, which we'll have pretty soon here. So, yeah, if you want to build your software and get it deployed, you want it to be scalable, and you also want it to be secure. There are so many ilities that come into deploying software. But to your point, even on the artificial intelligence side, people are looking for easier ways to abstract away the complexity. Like, if I told you to go write me a blog post with either ChatGPT or go build your own generative AI model and use that, then you're probably going to be like, yeah, I'll just go to the OpenAI website. I'll be back in a minute. And that's why also you see things like SageMaker from AWS. People want abstraction layers. They want easier ways to do things. And it's not just in DevOps; it's in artificial intelligence and machine learning. That's why drag-and-drop editors are becoming more popular in building web applications mobile applications. I think all of this software development stuff is going to be really accessible to a much larger community in the near future. VICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. That's great. And so, Dominic, any final takeaways for our listeners today? DOMINIC: Definitely, if you have interest in how either harpoon or Kubernetes, in general, might be applicable to you and your company, we're a bunch of friendly people over here. Even if you're not quite sure how to get started or you need advice on stuff, definitely go hit us up on our website or hit up support at harpoon.io, and send us a message. We're very open to helping people because, again, what we're really trying to do is make this more accessible to more people and make more people successful with this technology. So if we have to get on a bunch of phone calls or come sit next to you or do whatever else, we're here to be a resource to the community, and harpoon is for you to get started. So don't feel like you need a bunch of money to get started deploying with Kubernetes and using the platform. VICTORIA: That's a great note to end on. So you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Dominic Holt.

Renee Wasted of Blanks 77 bull shits with Andrew Bedlam about a ton of AWESOME shows coming up over the next 6 months! The two are also playing tracks from bands like GBH, The Unseen, Battalion Zoska, The Mesos and The Virus. The show stars off with Let's Go PoGo by Spikey Tops, (featuring Andrew Bedlam, Renee Wasted, $4Sean and Joe Unsubs) You can see the music video put together by 4D Kidz Production, on their YouTube with this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQxiyHGIb5o The footage was originally shot and released for the PoGo In The Pit 2, DVD documentary!  Lucky for you there are still a few copies available you can grab one by messaging the 4D Kids Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/4DKidzproductions You can check out PoGo City's, Best Punk Albums video playlist and Andrew Bedlam's new Boutique Guitar Vlog on our YouTube!  PLEASE SUBSCRIBE! https://www.youtube.com/@pogocityradio77 Order the new Parasitix split on PoGo City Records from our website  http://pogocity.com the 1str batch of records will shipped out April 28th!   Follow us on Facebook & Instagram @PoGoCityRadio  

Tony Jones Show #222 - With music from: Castle Black, The Benji's, Traveling Empire, The Mesos, Six Star General, Gamma Rage, The McGunks, Neutral Nation, Glenn Robinson, Barroom Heroes, Radio Compass, The Sheila Divine, Working Poor USA, The Jabbers, The Quins, The Rare Occasions, Midnight Creeps, Damone

On this episode of the Hacking #opensource Business podcast, we talk with Matt Barker, the founder, and president of Jetstack. The discussion is about his experience in building a bootstrapped open source company based on his previous work at Canonical and MongoDB. In the interview, Matt talks about sales, business, and open-source technology (Linux, Kubernetes, Mesos, and more!). Matt covers the challenges of selling free open source software, support as a product, retention challenges, and measuring growth and adoption in open source software. Matt also shares his experience in comparing MongoDB and Canonical and starting Jetstack by choosing Kubernetes as the next big thing. The conversation delves into bootstrapping Jetstack with a services model, moving from services to a software product, comparing Kubernetes to Apache Mesos, and betting on truly open software. The interview provides valuable insights into sales, business, and open-source technology, making it an informative resource for anyone looking to learn about bootstrapping an open-source company.Two Matts and an Avi walk into a conference in London and end up in the Matt Cave... and this is the result.  00:00:00  Welcome to the Matt Cave00:01:48  Getting to know Matt Barker and Jetstack00:02:30  The Early Days of Canonical00:07:17  Support as a product, retention challenges00:13:21  Trying to go to the proprietary world from open source00:14:28  Comparing MongoDB & Canonical00:17:27  Bootstrapping Jetstack with Services00:19:50  Moving from services to product00:22:53  Convinced Kubernetes was the right space00:24:54  Betting on truly open software instead of open source controlled by 1 company00:29:43  Measuring growth and adoption00:33:04  Rapid FireCheckout our other interviews, clips, and videos: https://l.hosbp.com/YoutubeDon't forget to visit the open-source business community at: https://opensourcebusiness.community/Visit our primary sponsor, Scarf, for tools to help analyze your #opensource growth and adoption: https://about.scarf.sh/Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app:Spotify: https://l.hosbp.com/SpotifyApple: https://l.hosbp.com/AppleGoogle: https://l.hosbp.com/GoogleBuzzsprout: https://l.hosbp.com/Buzzsprout

Knowing when to expand or pivot your company is about understanding the market and getting the timing right. Ben Hindman founder of D2iQ, joins Avi Press and Matt Yonkovit on episode 14 of the Hacking Open Source Business Podcast and talks about the journey of starting a company around Mesos ( Mesosphere ) to including Kubernetes and rebranding ( D2IQ ).  Ben gives us insight into working with foundations, starting a new company, choosing open source, and more!  Checkout our other interviews, clips, and videos: https://l.hosbp.com/YoutubeDon't forget to visit the open-source business community at: https://opensourcebusiness.community/Visit our primary sponsor, Scarf, for tools to help analyze your #opensource growth and adoption: https://about.scarf.sh/Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app:Spotify: https://l.hosbp.com/SpotifyApple: https://l.hosbp.com/AppleGoogle: https://l.hosbp.com/GoogleBuzzsprout: https://l.hosbp.com/Buzzsprout

Tony Jones Show #219 - With music from: Sourpunch, The Mesos, Meaghan Casey, Silver Dahli, Willie Alexander and the Boom Boom Band, The Quins, Steve Volkmann, Only on Weekends, Midnight Creeps, The Yuckies, Tony Jones & the Jerktones, Roz and The Rice Cakes, SexCoffee, The Charms, The Knightsville Butchers.

Tony Jones Show #218 - With music from: Carissa Johnson, The Jabbers, The Mesos, Sunshine Riot, Deer Tick, The Devil's Twins, Tony Jones & The Cretin 3, Adapter Adapter, Completely Destroyed, The Sheckies, The Callouts, For the Love of Sloane, The Can't Nots, Sugar Cones, The Sheila Divine, The Quins, Jenn Vix

About KelseyKelsey Hightower is the Principal Developer Advocate at Google, the co-chair of KubeCon, the world's premier Kubernetes conference, and an open source enthusiast. He's also the co-author of Kubernetes Up & Running: Dive into the Future of Infrastructure.Links: Twitter: @kelseyhightower Company site: Google.com Book: Kubernetes Up & Running: Dive into the Future of Infrastructure TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, with your host Cloud economist Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of Cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us by our friends at Pinecone. They believe that all anyone really wants is to be understood, and that includes your users. AI models combined with the Pinecone vector database let your applications understand and act on what your users want… without making them spell it out. Make your search application find results by meaning instead of just keywords, your personalization system make picks based on relevance instead of just tags, and your security applications match threats by resemblance instead of just regular expressions. Pinecone provides the cloud infrastructure that makes this easy, fast, and scalable. Thanks to my friends at Pinecone for sponsoring this episode. Visit Pinecone.io to understand more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Kelsey Hightower, who claims to be a principal developer advocate at Google, but based upon various keynotes I've seen him in, he basically gets on stage and plays video games like Tetris in front of large audiences. So I assume he is somehow involved with e-sports. Kelsey, welcome to the show.Kelsey: You've outed me. Most people didn't know that I am a full-time e-sports Tetris champion at home. And the technology thing is just a side gig.Corey: Exactly. It's one of those things you do just to keep the lights on, like you're waiting to get discovered, but in the meantime, you're waiting table. Same type of thing. Some people wait tables you more or less a sling Kubernetes, for lack of a better term.Kelsey: Yes.Corey: So let's dive right into this. You've been a strong proponent for a long time of Kubernetes and all of its intricacies and all the power that it unlocks and I've been pretty much the exact opposite of that, as far as saying it tends to be over complicated, that it's hype-driven and a whole bunch of other, shall we say criticisms that are sometimes bounded in reality and sometimes just because I think it'll be funny when I put them on Twitter. Where do you stand on the state of Kubernetes in 2020?Kelsey: So, I want to make sure it's clear what I do. Because when I started talking about Kubernetes, I was not working at Google. I was actually working at CoreOS where we had a competitor Kubernetes called Fleet. And Kubernetes coming out kind of put this like fork in our roadmap, like where do we go from here? What people saw me doing with Kubernetes was basically learning in public. Like I was really excited about the technology because it's attempting to solve a very complex thing. I think most people will agree building a distributed system is what cloud providers typically do, right? With VMs and hypervisors. Those are very big, complex distributed systems. And before Kubernetes came out, the closest I'd gotten to a distributed system before working at CoreOS was just reading the various white papers on the subject and hearing stories about how Google has systems like Borg tools, like Mesa was being used by some of the largest hyperscalers in the world, but I was never going to have the chance to ever touch one of those unless I would go work at one of those companies.So when Kubernetes came out and the fact that it was open source and I could read the code to understand how it was implemented, to understand how schedulers actually work and then bonus points for being able to contribute to it. Those early years, what you saw me doing was just being so excited about systems that I attended to build on my own, becoming this new thing just like Linux came up. So I kind of agree with you that a lot of people look at it as a more of a hype thing. They're looking at it regardless of their own needs, regardless of understanding how it works and what problems is trying to solve that. My stance on it, it's a really, really cool tool for the level that it operates in, and in order for it to be successful, people can't know that it's there.Corey: And I think that might be where part of my disconnect from Kubernetes comes into play. I have a background in ops, more or less, the grumpy Unix sysadmin because it's not like there's a second kind of Unix sysadmin you're ever going to encounter. Where everything in development works in theory, but in practice things pan out a little differently. I always joke that ops is the difference between theory and practice. In theory, devs can do everything and there's no ops needed. In practice, well it's been a burgeoning career for a while. The challenge with this is Kubernetes at times exposes certain levels of abstraction that, sorry certain levels of detail that generally people would not want to have to think about or deal with, while papering over other things with other layers of abstraction on top of it. That obscure, valuable troubleshooting information from a running something in an operational context. It absolutely is a fascinating piece of technology, but it feels today like it is overly complicated for the use a lot of people are attempting to put it to. Is that a fair criticism from where you sit?Kelsey: So I think the reason why it's a fair criticism is because there are people attempting to run their own Kubernetes cluster, right? So when we think about the cloud, unless you're in OpenStack land, but for the people who look at the cloud and you say, "Wow, this is much easier." There's an API for creating virtual machines and I don't see the distributed state store that's keeping all of that together. I don't see the farm of hypervisors. So we don't necessarily think about the inherent complexity into a system like that, because we just get to use it. So on one end, if you're just a user of a Kubernetes cluster, maybe using something fully managed or you have an ops team that's taking care of everything, your interface of the system becomes this Kubernetes configuration language where you say, "Give me a load balancer, give me three copies of this container running." And if we do it well, then you'd think it's a fairly easy system to deal with because you say, "kubectl, apply," and things seem to start running.Just like in the cloud where you say, "AWS create this VM, or G cloud compute instance, create." You just submit API calls and things happen. I think the fact that Kubernetes is very transparent to most people is, now you can see the complexity, right? Imagine everyone driving with the hood off the car. You'd be looking at a lot of moving things, but we have hoods on cars to hide the complexity and all we expose is the steering wheel and the pedals. That car is super complex but we don't see it. So therefore we don't attribute as complexity to the driving experience.Corey: This to some extent feels it's on the same axis as serverless, with just a different level of abstraction piled onto it. And while I am a large proponent of serverless, I think it's fantastic for a lot of Greenfield projects. The constraints inherent to the model mean that it is almost completely non-tenable for a tremendous number of existing workloads. Some developers like to call it legacy, but when I hear the term legacy I hear, "it makes actual money." So just treating it as, "Oh, it's a science experiment we can throw into a new environment, spend a bunch of time rewriting it for minimal gains," is just not going to happen as companies undergo digital transformations, if you'll pardon the term.Kelsey: Yeah, so I think you're right. So let's take Amazon's Lambda for example, it's a very opinionated high-level platform that assumes you're going to build apps a certain way. And if that's you, look, go for it. Now, one or two levels below that there is this distributed system. Kubernetes decided to play in that space because everyone that's building other platforms needs a place to start. The analogy I like to think of is like in the mobile space, iOS and Android deal with the complexities of managing multiple applications on a mobile device, security aspects, app stores, that kind of thing. And then you as a developer, you build your thing on top of those platforms and APIs and frameworks. Now, it's debatable, someone would say, "Why do we even need an open-source implementation of such a complex system? Why not just everyone moved to the cloud?" And then everyone that's not in a cloud on-premise gets left behind.But typically that's not how open source typically works, right? The reason why we have Linux, the precursor to the cloud is because someone looked at the big proprietary Unix systems and decided to re-implement them in a way that anyone could run those systems. So when you look at Kubernetes, you have to look at it from that lens. It's the ability to democratize these platform layers in a way that other people can innovate on top. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone needs to start with Kubernetes, just like not everyone needs to start with the Linux server, but it's there for you to build the next thing on top of, if that's the route you want to go.Corey: It's been almost a year now since I made an original tweet about this, that in five years, no one will care about Kubernetes. So now I guess I have four years running on that clock and that attracted a bit of, shall we say controversy. There were people who thought that I meant that it was going to be a flash in the pan and it would dry up and blow away. But my impression of it is that in, well four years now, it will have become more or less system D for the data center, in that there's a bunch of complexity under the hood. It does a bunch of things. No-one sensible wants to spend all their time mucking around with it in most companies. But it's not something that people have to think about in an ongoing basis the way it feels like we do today.Kelsey: Yeah, I mean to me, I kind of see this as the natural evolution, right? It's new, it gets a lot of attention and kind of the assumption you make in that statement is there's something better that should be able to arise, giving that checkpoint. If this is what people think is hot, within five years surely we should see something else that can be deserving of that attention, right? Docker comes out and almost four or five years later you have Kubernetes. So it's obvious that there should be a progression here that steals some of the attention away from Kubernetes, but I think where it's so new, right? It's only five years in, Linux is like over 20 years old now at this point, and it's still top of mind for a lot of people, right? Microsoft is still porting a lot of Windows only things into Linux, so we still discuss the differences between Windows and Linux.The idea that the cloud, for the most part, is driven by Linux virtual machines, that I think the majority of workloads run on virtual machines still to this day, so it's still front and center, especially if you're a system administrator managing BDMs, right? You're dealing with tools that target Linux, you know the Cisco interface and you're thinking about how to secure it and lock it down. Kubernetes is just at the very first part of that life cycle where it's new. We're all interested in even what it is and how it works, and now we're starting to move into that next phase, which is the distro phase. Like in Linux, you had Red Hat, Slackware, Ubuntu, special purpose distros.Some will consider Android a special purpose distribution of Linux for mobile devices. And now that we're in this distro phase, that's going to go on for another 5 to 10 years where people start to align themselves around, maybe it's OpenShift, maybe it's GKE, maybe it's Fargate for EKS. These are now distributions built on top of Kubernetes that start to add a little bit more opinionation about how Kubernetes should be pushed together. And then we'll enter another phase where you'll build a platform on top of Kubernetes, but it won't be worth mentioning that Kubernetes is underneath because people will be more interested on the thing above.Corey: I think we're already seeing that now, in terms of people no longer really care that much what operating system they're running, let alone with distribution of that operating system. The things that you have to care about slip below the surface of awareness and we've seen this for a long time now. Originally to install a web server, it wound up taking a few days and an intimate knowledge of GCC compiler flags, then RPM or D package and then yum on top of that, then ensure installed, once we had configuration management that was halfway decent.Then Docker run, whatever it is. And today feels like it's with serverless technologies being what they are, it's effectively a push a file to S3 or it's equivalent somewhere else and you're done. The things that people have to be aware of and the barrier to entry continually lowers. The downside to that of course, is that things that people specialize in today and effectively make very lucrative careers out of are going to be not front and center in 5 to 10 years the way that they are today. And that's always been the way of technology. It's a treadmill to some extent.Kelsey: And on the flip side of that, look at all of the new jobs that are centered around these cloud-native technologies, right? So you know, we're just going to make up some numbers here, imagine if there were only 10,000 jobs around just Linux system administration. Now when you look at this whole Kubernetes landscape where people are saying we can actually do a better job with metrics and monitoring. Observability is now a thing culturally that people assume you should have, because you're dealing with these distributed systems. The ability to start thinking about multi-regional deployments when I think that would've been infeasible with the previous tools or you'd have to build all those tools yourself. So I think now we're starting to see a lot more opportunities, where instead of 10,000 people, maybe you need 20,000 people because now you have the tools necessary to tackle bigger projects where you didn't see that before.Corey: That's what's going to be really neat to see. But the challenge is always to people who are steeped in existing technologies. What does this mean for them? I mean I spent a lot of time early in my career fighting against cloud because I thought that it was taking away a cornerstone of my identity. I was a large scale Unix administrator, specifically focusing on email. Well, it turns out that there aren't nearly as many companies that need to have that particular skill set in house as it did 10 years ago. And what we're seeing now is this sort of forced evolution of people's skillsets or they hunker down on a particular area of technology or particular application to try and make a bet that they can ride that out until retirement. It's challenging, but at some point it seems that some folks like to stop learning, and I don't fully pretend to understand that. I'm sure I will someday where, "No, at this point technology come far enough. We're just going to stop here, and anything after this is garbage." I hope not, but I can see a world in which that happens.Kelsey: Yeah, and I also think one thing that we don't talk a lot about in the Kubernetes community, is that Kubernetes makes hyper-specialization worth doing because now you start to have a clear separation from concerns. Now the OS can be hyperfocused on security system calls and not necessarily packaging every programming language under the sun into a single distribution. So we can kind of move part of that layer out of the core OS and start to just think about the OS being a security boundary where we try to lock things down. And for some people that play at that layer, they have a lot of work ahead of them in locking down these system calls, improving the idea of containerization, whether that's something like Firecracker or some of the work that you see VMware doing, that's going to be a whole class of hyper-specialization. And the reason why they're going to be able to focus now is because we're starting to move into a world, whether that's serverless or the Kubernetes API.We're saying we should deploy applications that don't target machines. I mean just that step alone is going to allow for so much specialization at the various layers because even on the networking front, which arguably has been a specialization up until this point, can truly specialize because now the IP assignments, how networking fits together, has also abstracted a way one more step where you're not asking for interfaces or binding to a specific port or playing with port mappings. You can now let the platform do that. So I think for some of the people who may be not as interested as moving up the stack, they need to be aware that the number of people we need being hyper-specialized at Linux administration will definitely shrink. And a lot of that work will move up the stack, whether that's Kubernetes or managing a serverless deployment and all the configuration that goes with that. But if you are a Linux, like that is your bread and butter, I think there's going to be an opportunity to go super deep, but you may have to expand into things like security and not just things like configuration management.Corey: Let's call it the unfulfilled promise of Kubernetes. On paper, I love what it hints at being possible. Namely, if I build something that runs well on top of Kubernetes than we truly have a write once, run anywhere type of environment. Stop me if you've heard that one before, 50,000 times in our industry... or history. But in practice, as has happened before, it seems like it tends to fall down for one reason or another. Now, Amazon is famous because for many reasons, but the one that I like to pick on them for is, you can't say the word multi-cloud at their events. Right. That'll change people's perspective, good job. The people tend to see multi-cloud are a couple of different lenses.I've been rather anti multi-cloud from the perspective of the idea that you're setting out day one to build an application with the idea that it can be run on top of any cloud provider, or even on-premises if that's what you want to do, is generally not the way to proceed. You wind up having to make certain trade-offs along the way, you have to rebuild anything that isn't consistent between those providers, and it slows you down. Kubernetes on the other hand hints at if it works and fulfills this promise, you can suddenly abstract an awful lot beyond that and just write generic applications that can run anywhere. Where do you stand on the whole multi-cloud topic?Kelsey: So I think we have to make sure we talk about the different layers that are kind of ready for this thing. So for example, like multi-cloud networking, we just call that networking, right? What's the IP address over there? I can just hit it. So we don't make a big deal about multi-cloud networking. Now there's an area where people say, how do I configure the various cloud providers? And I think the healthy way to think about this is, in your own data centers, right, so we know a lot of people have investments on-premises. Now, if you were to take the mindset that you only need one provider, then you would try to buy everything from HP, right? You would buy HP store's devices, you buy HP racks, power. Maybe HP doesn't sell air conditioners. So you're going to have to buy an air conditioner from a vendor who specializes in making air conditioners, hopefully for a data center and not your house.So now you've entered this world where one vendor does it make every single piece that you need. Now in the data center, we don't say, "Oh, I am multi-vendor in my data center." Typically, you just buy the switches that you need, you buy the power racks that you need, you buy the ethernet cables that you need, and they have common interfaces that allow them to connect together and they typically have different configuration languages and methods for configuring those components. The cloud on the other hand also represents the same kind of opportunity. There are some people who really love DynamoDB and S3, but then they may prefer something like BigQuery to analyze the data that they're uploading into S3. Now, if this was a data center, you would just buy all three of those things and put them in the same rack and call it good.But the cloud presents this other challenge. How do you authenticate to those systems? And then there's usually this additional networking costs, egress or ingress charges that make it prohibitive to say, "I want to use two different products from two different vendors." And I think that's-Corey: ...winds up causing serious problems.Kelsey: Yes, so that data gravity, the associated cost becomes a little bit more in your face. Whereas, in a data center you kind of feel that the cost has already been paid. I already have a network switch with enough bandwidth, I have an extra port on my switch to plug this thing in and they're all standard interfaces. Why not? So I think the multi-cloud gets lost in the chew problem, which is the barrier to entry of leveraging things across two different providers because of networking and configuration practices.Corey: That's often the challenge, I think, that people get bogged down in. On an earlier episode of this show we had Mitchell Hashimoto on, and his entire theory around using Terraform to wind up configuring various bits of infrastructure, was not the idea of workload portability because that feels like the windmill we all keep tilting at and failing to hit. But instead the idea of workflow portability, where different things can wind up being interacted with in the same way. So if this one division is on one cloud provider, the others are on something else, then you at least can have some points of consistency in how you interact with those things. And in the event that you do need to move, you don't have to effectively redo all of your CICD process, all of your tooling, et cetera. And I thought that there was something compelling about that argument.Kelsey: And that's actually what Kubernetes does for a lot of people. For Kubernetes, if you think about it, when we start to talk about workflow consistency, if you want to deploy an application, queue CTL, apply, some config, you want the application to have a load balancer in front of it. Regardless of the cloud provider, because Kubernetes has an extension point we call the cloud provider. And that's where Amazon, Azure, Google Cloud, we do all the heavy lifting of mapping the high-level ingress object that specifies, "I want a load balancer, maybe a few options," to the actual implementation detail. So maybe you don't have to use four or five different tools and that's where that kind of workload portability comes from. Like if you think about Linux, right? It has a set of system calls, for the most part, even if you're using a different distro at this point, Red Hat or Amazon Linux or Google's container optimized Linux.If I build a Go binary on my laptop, I can SCP it to any of those Linux machines and it's going to probably run. So you could call that multi-cloud, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because it's just because of the way Linux works. Kubernetes does something very similar because it sits right on top of Linux, so you get the portability just from the previous example and then you get the other portability and workload, like you just stated, where I'm calling kubectl apply, and I'm using the same workflow to get resources spun up on the various cloud providers. Even if that configuration isn't one-to-one identical.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Uptycs, because they believe that many of you are looking to bolster your security posture with CNAPP and XDR solutions. They offer both cloud and endpoint security in a single UI and data model. Listeners can get Uptycs for up to 1,000 assets through the end of 2023 (that is next year) for $1. But this offer is only available for a limited time on UptycsSecretMenu.com. That's U-P-T-Y-C-S Secret Menu dot com.Corey: One thing I'm curious about is you wind up walking through the world and seeing companies adopting Kubernetes in different ways. How are you finding the adoption of Kubernetes is looking like inside of big E enterprise style companies? I don't have as much insight into those environments as I probably should. That's sort of a focus area for the next year for me. But in startups, it seems that it's either someone goes in and rolls it out and suddenly it's fantastic, or they avoid it entirely and do something serverless. In large enterprises, I see a lot of Kubernetes and a lot of Kubernetes stories coming out of it, but what isn't usually told is, what's the tipping point where they say, "Yeah, let's try this." Or, "Here's the problem we're trying to solve for. Let's chase it."Kelsey: What I see is enterprises buy everything. If you're big enough and you have a big enough IT budget, most enterprises have a POC of everything that's for sale, period. There's some team in some pocket, maybe they came through via acquisition. Maybe they live in a different state. Maybe it's just a new project that came out. And what you tend to see, at least from my experiences, if I walk into a typical enterprise, they may tell me something like, "Hey, we have a POC, a Pivotal Cloud Foundry, OpenShift, and we want some of that new thing that we just saw from you guys. How do we get a POC going?" So there's always this appetite to evaluate what's for sale, right? So, that's one case. There's another case where, when you start to think about an enterprise there's a big range of skillsets. Sometimes I'll go to some companies like, "Oh, my insurance is through that company, and there's ex-Googlers that work there." They used to work on things like Borg, or something else, and they kind of know how these systems work.And they have a slightly better edge at evaluating whether Kubernetes is any good for the problem at hand. And you'll see them bring it in. Now that same company, I could drive over to the other campus, maybe it's five miles away and that team doesn't even know what Kubernetes is. And for them, they're going to be chugging along with what they're currently doing. So then the challenge becomes if Kubernetes is a great fit, how wide of a fit it isn't? How many teams at that company should be using it? So what I'm currently seeing as there are some enterprises that have found a way to make Kubernetes the place where they do a lot of new work, because that makes sense. A lot of enterprises to my surprise though, are actually stepping back and saying, "You know what? We've been stitching together our own platform for the last five years. We had the Netflix stack, we got some Spring Boot, we got Console, we got Vault, we got Docker. And now this whole thing is getting a little more fragile because we're doing all of this glue code."Kubernetes, We've been trying to build our own Kubernetes and now that we know what it is and we know what it isn't, we know that we can probably get rid of this kind of bespoke stack ourselves and just because of the ecosystem, right? If I go to HashiCorp's website, I would probably find the word Kubernetes as much as I find the word Nomad on their site because they've made things like Console and Vault become first-class offerings inside of the world of Kubernetes. So I think it's that momentum that you see across even People Oracle, Juniper, Palo Alto Networks, they're all have seem to have a Kubernetes story. And this is why you start to see the enterprise able to adopt it because it's so much in their face and it's where the ecosystem is going.Corey: It feels like a lot of the excitement and the promise and even the same problems that Kubernetes is aimed at today, could have just as easily been talked about half a decade ago in the context of OpenStack. And for better or worse, OpenStack is nowhere near where it once was. It would felt like it had such promise and such potential and when it didn't pan out, that left a lot of people feeling relatively sad, burnt out, depressed, et cetera. And I'm seeing a lot of parallels today, at least between what was said about OpenStack and what was said about Kubernetes. How do you see those two diverging?Kelsey: I will tell you the big difference that I saw, personally. Just for my personal journey outside of Google, just having that option. And I remember I was working at a company and we were like, "We're going to roll our own OpenStack. We're going to buy a free BSD box and make it a file server. We're going all open sources," like do whatever you want to do. And that was just having so many issues in terms of first-class integrations, education, people with the skills to even do that. And I was like, "You know what, let's just cut the check for VMware." We want virtualization. VMware, for the cost and when it does, it's good enough. Or we can just actually use a cloud provider. That space in many ways was a purely solved problem. Now, let's fast forward to Kubernetes, and also when you get OpenStack finished, you're just back where you started.You got a bunch of VMs and now you've got to go figure out how to build the real platform that people want to use because no one just wants a VM. If you think Kubernetes is low level, just having OpenStack, even OpenStack was perfect. You're still at square one for the most part. Maybe you can just say, "Now I'm paying a little less money for my stack in terms of software licensing costs," but from an extraction and automation and API standpoint, I don't think OpenStack moved the needle in that regard. Now in the Kubernetes world, it's solving a huge gap.Lots of people have virtual machine sprawl than they had Docker sprawl, and when you bring in this thing by Kubernetes, it says, "You know what? Let's reign all of that in. Let's build some first-class abstractions, assuming that the layer below us is a solved problem." You got to remember when Kubernetes came out, it wasn't trying to replace the hypervisor, it assumed it was there. It also assumed that the hypervisor had APIs for creating virtual machines and attaching disc and creating load balancers, so Kubernetes came out as a complementary technology, not one looking to replace. And I think that's why it was able to stick because it solved a problem at another layer where there was not a lot of competition.Corey: I think a more cynical take, at least one of the ones that I've heard articulated and I tend to agree with, was that OpenStack originally seemed super awesome because there were a lot of interesting people behind it, fascinating organizations, but then you wound up looking through the backers of the foundation behind it and the rest. And there were something like 500 companies behind it, an awful lot of them were these giant organizations that ... they were big e-corporate IT enterprise software vendors, and you take a look at that, I'm not going to name anyone because at that point, oh will we get letters.But at that point, you start seeing so many of the patterns being worked into it that it almost feels like it has to collapse under its own weight. I don't, for better or worse, get the sense that Kubernetes is succumbing to the same thing, despite the CNCF having an awful lot of those same backers behind it and as far as I can tell, significantly more money, they seem to have all the money to throw at these sorts of things. So I'm wondering how Kubernetes has managed to effectively sidestep I guess the open-source miasma that OpenStack didn't quite manage to avoid.Kelsey: Kubernetes gained its own identity before the foundation existed. Its purpose, if you think back from the Borg paper almost eight years prior, maybe even 10 years prior. It defined this problem really, really well. I think Mesos came out and also had a slightly different take on this problem. And you could just see at that time there was a real need, you had choices between Docker Swarm, Nomad. It seems like everybody was trying to fill in this gap because, across most verticals or industries, this was a true problem worth solving. What Kubernetes did was played in the exact same sandbox, but it kind of got put out with experience. It's not like, "Oh, let's just copy this thing that already exists, but let's just make it open."And in that case, you don't really have your own identity. It's you versus Amazon, in the case of OpenStack, it's you versus VMware. And that's just really a hard place to be in because you don't have an identity that stands alone. Kubernetes itself had an identity that stood alone. It comes from this experience of running a system like this. It comes from research and white papers. It comes after previous attempts at solving this problem. So we agree that this problem needs to be solved. We know what layer it needs to be solved at. We just didn't get it right yet, so Kubernetes didn't necessarily try to get it right.It tried to start with only the primitives necessary to focus on the problem at hand. Now to your point, the extension interface of Kubernetes is what keeps it small. Years ago I remember plenty of meetings where we all got in rooms and said, "This thing is done." It doesn't need to be a PaaS. It doesn't need to compete with serverless platforms. The core of Kubernetes, like Linux, is largely done. Here's the core objects, and we're going to make a very great extension interface. We're going to make one for the container run time level so that way people can swap that out if they really want to, and we're going to do one that makes other APIs as first-class as ones we have, and we don't need to try to boil the ocean in every Kubernetes release. Everyone else has the ability to deploy extensions just like Linux, and I think that's why we're avoiding some of this tension in the vendor world because you don't have to change the core to get something that feels like a native part of Kubernetes.Corey: What do you think is currently being the most misinterpreted or misunderstood aspect of Kubernetes in the ecosystem?Kelsey: I think the biggest thing that's misunderstood is what Kubernetes actually is. And the thing that made it click for me, especially when I was writing the tutorial Kubernetes The Hard Way. I had to sit down and ask myself, "Where do you start trying to learn what Kubernetes is?" So I start with the database, right? The configuration store isn't Postgres, it isn't MySQL, it's Etcd. Why? Because we're not trying to be this generic data stores platform. We just need to store configuration data. Great. Now, do we let all the components talk to Etcd? No. We have this API server and between the API server and the chosen data store, that's essentially what Kubernetes is. You can stop there. At that point, you have a valid Kubernetes cluster and it can understand a few things. Like I can say, using the Kubernetes command-line tool, create this configuration map that stores configuration data and I can read it back.Great. Now I can't do a lot of things that are interesting with that. Maybe I just use it as a configuration store, but then if I want to build a container platform, I can install the Kubernetes kubelet agent on a bunch of machines and have it talk to the API server looking for other objects you add in the scheduler, all the other components. So what that means is that Kubernetes most important component is its API because that's how the whole system is built. It's actually a very simple system when you think about just those two components in isolation. If you want a container management tool that you need a scheduler, controller, manager, cloud provider integrations, and now you have a container tool. But let's say you want a service mesh platform. Well in a service mesh you have a data plane that can be Nginx or Envoy and that's going to handle routing traffic. And you need a control plane. That's going to be something that takes in configuration and it uses that to configure all the things in a data plane.Well, guess what? Kubernetes is 90% there in terms of a control plane, with just those two components, the API server, and the data store. So now when you want to build control planes, if you start with the Kubernetes API, we call it the API machinery, you're going to be 95% there. And then what do you get? You get a distributed system that can handle kind of failures on the back end, thanks to Etcd. You're going to get our backs or you can have permission on top of your schemas, and there's a built-in framework, we call it custom resource definitions that allows you to articulate a schema and then your own control loops provide meaning to that schema. And once you do those two things, you can build any platform you want. And I think that's one thing that it takes a while for people to understand that part of Kubernetes, that the thing we talk about today, for the most part, is just the first system that we built on top of this.Corey: I think that's a very far-reaching story with implications that I'm not entirely sure I am able to wrap my head around. I hope to see it, I really do. I mean you mentioned about writing Learn Kubernetes the Hard Way and your tutorial, which I'll link to in the show notes. I mean my, of course, sarcastic response to that recently was to register the domain Kubernetes the Easy Way and just re-pointed to Amazon's ECS, which is in no way shape or form Kubernetes and basically has the effect of irritating absolutely everyone as is my typical pattern of behavior on Twitter. But I have been meaning to dive into Kubernetes on a deeper level and the stuff that you've written, not just the online tutorial, both the books have always been my first port of call when it comes to that. The hard part, of course, is there's just never enough hours in the day.Kelsey: And one thing that I think about too is like the web. We have the internet, there's webpages, there's web browsers. Web Browsers talk to web servers over HTTP. There's verbs, there's bodies, there's headers. And if you look at it, that's like a very big complex system. If I were to extract out the protocol pieces, this concept of HTTP verbs, get, put, post and delete, this idea that I can put stuff in a body and I can give it headers to give it other meaning and semantics. If I just take those pieces, I can bill restful API's.Hell, I can even bill graph QL and those are just different systems built on the same API machinery that we call the internet or the web today. But you have to really dig into the details and pull that part out and you can build all kind of other platforms and I think that's what Kubernetes is. It's going to probably take people a little while longer to see that piece, but it's hidden in there and that's that piece that's going to be, like you said, it's going to probably be the foundation for building more control planes. And when people build control planes, I think if you think about it, maybe Fargate for EKS represents another control plane for making a serverless platform that takes to Kubernetes API, even though the implementation isn't what you find on GitHub.Corey: That's the truth. Whenever you see something as broadly adopted as Kubernetes, there's always the question of, "Okay, there's an awful lot of blog posts." Getting started to it, learn it in 10 minutes, I mean at some point, I'm sure there are some people still convince Kubernetes is, in fact, a breakfast cereal based upon what some of the stuff the CNCF has gotten up to. I wouldn't necessarily bet against it socks today, breakfast cereal tomorrow. But it's hard to find a decent level of quality, finding the certain quality bar of a trusted source to get started with is important. Some people believe in the hero's journey, story of a narrative building.I always prefer to go with the morons journey because I'm the moron. I touch technologies, I have no idea what they do and figure it out and go careening into edge and corner cases constantly. And by the end of it I have something that vaguely sort of works and my understanding's improved. But I've gone down so many terrible paths just by picking a bad point to get started. So everyone I've talked to who's actually good at things has pointed to your work in this space as being something that is authoritative and largely correct and given some of these people, that's high praise.Kelsey: Awesome. I'm going to put that on my next performance review as evidence of my success and impact.Corey: Absolutely. Grouchy people say, "It's all right," you know, for the right people that counts. If people want to learn more about what you're up to and see what you have to say, where can they find you?Kelsey: I aggregate most of outward interactions on Twitter, so I'm @KelseyHightower and my DMs are open, so I'm happy to field any questions and I attempt to answer as many as I can.Corey: Excellent. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I appreciate it.Kelsey: Awesome. I was happy to be here.Corey: Kelsey Hightower, Principal Developer Advocate at Google. I'm Corey Quinn. This is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. If you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts and then leave a funny comment. Thanks.Announcer: This has been this week's episode of Screaming in the Cloud. You can also find more Core at screaminginthecloud.com or wherever fine snark is sold.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The World Cup continues! Let's all enjoy a show perfect for inbetween group matches - so here are nine soothing songs from The Puncturists, Lucifer Star Machine, Grade 2, The Bellwether Syndicate, Frenzy, The Blackwater Fever, Marie-Thérèse, The Mesos and The Black Halos.Voice of Jeff, Comedy Suburbs, Tony has your Facebook comments, Comment of Jeff, Hanging around in my pants, last week, It's Christmas!, World Cup, 1899, Wilko Johnson, From the Vaults, Tony's International Gig Guide, Psycho Mart, this week, not a lot, Scranton, CeeLo Green, no Izzatwat this week, the best internet video ever and a reminder of the ways you can listen.Song 1: The Puncturists – Politicians LieSong 2: Lucifer Star Machine – I Wanted EverythingSong 3: Grade 2 – Under The StreetlightSong 4: The Bellwether Syndicate – Dystopian MirrorSong 5: Frenzy – Milk ‘N' AlcoholSong 6: The Blackwater Fever – Everything AlwaysSong 7: Marie-Thérèse - LUNASong 8: The Mesos – Deranged DriverSong 9: The Black Halos – A Positive Note

Andrew rambles about the recent NJ/PA/NYC shows including this weeks Manhattan trip to see Blondie and the Damned! Playing some killer tracks along the way including one of the openers from Fridays Blanx show the Mesos. Stick around to the end to hear a way late movie review of Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World, also talking a lil about the new Elvis bio pic!   Find the full episode with better sound on platforms like Spotify, Apple Podcast and wherever you find podcast just search PoGo City Radio! http://pogocity.com

It is time to welcome some old friends to the show! So on top of some truly excellent bed action we also feature nine songs from Nights Like Thieves, Kickboy, Bad Blood, Psychomart, Lost Souls, Megasnake, Suburban Toys, The Sporadics and The Mesos.Voice of Jeff, Poetry Corner, Comedy Suburbs, Dammit Records, Tony has your Facebook comments, Lord Reilloc, last week, Tony went away, Nutty Nottingham tour, Umbrella Academy, Stranger Things, From the Vaults, Tony's International Gig Guide, Menace, The Boys, Animus Numinous, this week, Netflix catchup, The Man From Toronto, Pineda, Punk 4 The Homeless, no Izzatwat, Emma Raducana and a reminder of the ways you can listen.Song 1: Nights Like Thieves - DistractionSong 2: Kickboy – Abrupt Drug HolidaySong 3: Bad Blood - AnswersSong 4: Psychomart – Where's NevilleSong 5: Lost Souls – Dancing With MyselfSong 6: Megasnake – Another Lesson LearnedSong 7: Suburban Toys – Time to DieSong 8: The Sporadics – Sick Of It AllSong 9: The Mesos – Party Tonight

About RachelRachel leads product and technical marketing for Chronosphere. Previously, Rachel wore lots of marketing hats at CloudHealth (acquired by VMware), and before that, she led product marketing for cloud-integrated storage at NetApp. She also spent many years as an analyst at Forrester Research. Outside of work, Rachel tries to keep up with her young son and hyper-active dog, and when she has time, enjoys crafting and eating out at local restaurants in Boston where she's based.Links: Chronosphere: https://chronosphere.io Twitter: https://twitter.com/RachelDines Email: rachel@chronosphere.io TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: The company 0x4447 builds products to increase standardization and security in AWS organizations. They do this with automated pipelines that use well-structured projects to create secure, easy-to-maintain and fail-tolerant solutions, one of which is their VPN product built on top of the popular OpenVPN project which has no license restrictions; you are only limited by the network card in the instance. To learn more visit: snark.cloud/deployandgoCorey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured and fully managed with built in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: make your data sing.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A repeat guest joins me today, and instead of talking about where she works, instead we're going to talk about how she got there. Rachel Dines is the Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere. Rachel, thank you for joining me.Rachel: Thanks, Corey. It's great to be here again.Corey: So, back in the early days of me getting started, well, I guess all this nonsense, I was an independent consultant working in the world of cloud cost management and you were over at CloudHealth, which was effectively the 800-pound gorilla in that space. I've gotten louder, and of course, that means noisier as well. You wound up going through the acquisition by VMware at CloudHealth, and now you're over at Chronosphere. We're going to get to all of that, but I'd rather start at the beginning, which, you know, when you're telling stories seems like a reasonable place to start. Your first job out of school, to my understanding, was as an analyst at Forrester is that correct?Rachel: It was yeah. Actually, I started as a research associate at Forrester and eventually became an analyst. But yes, it was Forrester. And when I was leaving school—you know, I studied art history and computer science, which is a great combination, makes a ton of sense—I can explain it another time—and I really wanted to go work at the equivalent of FAANG back then, which was just Google. I really wanted to go work at Google.And I did the whole song-and-dance interview there and did not get the job. Best thing that's ever happened to me because the next day a Forrester recruiter called. I didn't know what Forrester was—once again, I was right out of college—I said, “This sounds kind of interesting. I'll check it out.” Seven years later, I was a principal analyst covering, you know, cloud-to-cloud resiliency and backup to the cloud and cloud storage. And that was an amazing start to my career, that really, I'm credited a lot of the things I've learned and done since then on that start at Forrester.Corey: Well, I'll admit this: I was disturbingly far into my 30s before I started to realize what it is that Forrester and its endless brethren did. I'm almost certain you can tell that story better than I can, so what is it that Forrester does? What is its place in the ecosystem?Rachel: Forrester is one of the two or three biggest industry analyst firms. So, the people that work there—the analysts there—are basically paid to be, like, big thinkers and strategists and analysts, right? There's a reason it's called that. And so the way that we spent all of our time was, you know, talking to interesting large, typically enterprise IT, and I was in the infrastructure and operations group, so I was speaking to infrastructure, ops, precursors to DevOps—DevOps wasn't really a thing back in ye olden times, but we're speaking to them and learning their best practices and publishing reports about the technology, the people and the process that they dealt with. And so you know, over a course of a year, I would talk to hundreds of different large enterprises, the infrastructure and ops leaders at everyone from, like, American Express to Johnson & Johnson to Monsanto, learn from them, write research and reports, and also do things like inquiries and speaking engagements and that kind of stuff.So, the idea of industry analysts is that they're neutral, they're objective. You can go to them for advice, and they can tell you, you know, these are the shortlist of vendors you should consider and this is what you should look for in a solution.Corey: I love the idea of what that role is, but it took me a while as a condescending engineer to really wrap my head around it because I viewed it as oh, it's just for a cover your ass exercise so that when a big company makes a decision, they don't get yelled at later, and they said, “Well, it seemed like the right thing to do. You can't blame us.” And that is an overwhelmingly cynical perspective. But the way it was explained to me, it really was put into context—of all things—by way of using the AWS bill as a lens. There's a whole bunch of tools and scripts and whatnot on GitHub that will tell you different things about your AWS environment, and if I run them in my environment, yeah, they work super well.I run them in a client environment and the thing explodes because it's not designed to work at a scale of 10,000 instances in a single availability zone. It's not designed to do backing off so it doesn't exhaust rate limits across the board. It requires a rethinking at that scale. When you're talking about enterprise-scale, a lot of the Twitter zeitgeist, as it were, about what tools work well and what tools don't for various startups, they fail to cross over into the bowels of a regulated entity that has a bunch of other governance and management concerns that don't really apply. So, there's this idea of okay, now that we're a large, going entity with serious revenue behind this, and migrating to any of these things is a substantial lift. What is the right answer? And that is sort of how I see the role of these companies in the ecosystem playing out. Is that directionally correct?Rachel: I would definitely agree that that is directionally correct. And it was the direction that it was going when I was there at Forrester. And by the way, I've been gone from there for, I think, eight-plus years. So, you know, it's definitely evolved it this space—Corey: A lifetime in tech.Rachel: Literally feels like a lifetime. Towards the end of my time there was when we were starting to get briefings from this bookstore company—you might have heard of them—um, Amazon?Corey: Barnes and Noble.Rachel: Yes. And Barnes and Noble. Yes. So, we're starting to get briefings from Amazon, you know, about Amazon Web Services, and S3 had just been introduced. And I got really excited about Netflix and chaos engineering—this was 2012, right?—and so I did a bunch of research on chaos engineering and tried to figure out how it could apply to the enterprises.And I would, like, bring it to Capital One, and they were like, “Ya crazy.” Turns out I think I was just a little bit ahead of my time, and I'm seeing a lot more of the industry analysts now today looking at like, “Okay, well, yeah, what is Uber doing? Like, what is Netflix doing?” And figure out how that can translate to the enterprise. And it's not a one-to-one, right, just because the people and the structures and the process is so different, so the technology can't just, like, make the leap on its own. But yes, I would definitely agree with that, but it hasn't necessarily always been that way.Corey: Oh, yeah. Like, these days, we're seeing serverless adoption on some levels being driven by enterprises. I mean, Liberty Mutual is doing stuff there that is really at the avant-garde that startups are learning from. It's really neat to see that being turned on its head because you always see these big enterprises saying, “We're like a startup,” but you never see a startup saying, “We're like a big enterprise.” Because that's evocative of something that isn't generally compelling.“Well, what does that mean, exactly? You take forever to do expense reports, and then you get super finicky about it, and you have so much bureaucracy?” No, no, no, it's, “Now, that we're process bound, it's that we understand data sovereignty and things like that.” But you didn't stay there forever. You at some point decided, okay, talking to people who are working in this industry is all well and good, but time for you to go work in that industry yourself. And you went to, I believe, NetApp by way of Riverbed.Rachel: Yes, yeah. So, I left Forrester and I went over to Riverbed to work on their cloud storage solution as a product marketing. And I had an amazing six months at Riverbed, but I happened to join, unfortunately, right around the time they were being taken private, and they ended up divesting their storage product line off to NetApp. And they divested some of their other product lines to some other companies as part of the whole deal going private. So, it was a short stint at Riverbed, although I've met some people that I've stayed in touch with and are still my friends, you know, many years later.And so, yeah, ended up over at NetApp. And it wasn't necessarily what I had initially planned for, but it was a really fun opportunity to take a cloud-integrated storage product—so it was an appliance that people put in their data centers; you could send backups to it, and it shipped those backups on the back end to S3 and then to Glacier when that came out—trying to make that successful in a company that was really not overly associated with cloud. That was a really fun process and a fun journey. And now I look at NetApp and where they are today, and they've acquired Spot and they've acquired CloudCheckr, and they're, like, really going all-in in public cloud. And I like to think, like, “Hey, I was in the early days of that.” But yeah, so that was an interesting time in my life for multiple reasons.Corey: Yeah, Spot was a fascinating product, and I was surprised to see it go to NetApp. It was one of those acquisitions that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time. NetApp has always been one of those companies I hold in relatively high regard. Back when I was coming up in the industry, a bit before the 2012s or so, it was routinely ranked as the number one tech employer on a whole bunch of surveys. And I don't think these were the kinds of surveys you can just buy your way to the top of.People who worked there seemed genuinely happy, the technology was fantastic, and it was, for example, the one use case in which I would run a database where its data store lived on a network file system. I kept whining at the EFS people over at AWS for years that well, EFS is great and all but it's no NetApp. Then they released NetApps on tap on FSX as a first-party service, in which case, okay, thank you. You have now solved every last reservation I have around this. Onward.And I still hold the system in high regard. But it has, on some level, seen an erosion. We're no longer in a world where I am hurling big money—or medium money by enterprise standards—off to NetApp for their filers. It instead is something that the cloud providers are providing, and last time I checked, no matter how much I spend on AWS they wouldn't let me shove a NetApp filer into us-east-1 without asking some very uncomfortable questions.Rachel: Yeah. The whole storage industry is changing really quickly, and more of the traditional on-premises storage vendors have needed to adapt or… not, you know, be very successful. I think that NetApp's done a nice job of adapting in recent years. But I'd been in storage and backup for my entire career at that point, and I was like, I need to get out. I'm done with storage. I'm done with backup. I'm done with disaster recovery. I had that time; I want to go try something totally new.And that was how I ended up leaving NetApp and joining CloudHealth. Because I'd never really done the startup thing. I done a medium-sized company at Riverbed; I'd done a pretty big company at NetApp. I've always been an entrepreneur at heart. I started my first business on the playground in second grade, and it was reselling sticks of gum. Like, I would go use my allowance to buy a big pack of gum, and then I sold the sticks individually for ten cents apiece, making a killer margin. And it was a subscription, actually. [laugh].Corey: Administrations generally—at least public schools—generally tend to turn a—have a dim view of those things, as I recall from my misspent youth.Rachel: Yeah. I was shut down pretty quickly, but it was a brilliant business model. It was—so you had to join the club to even be able to buy into getting the sticks of gum. I was, you know, all over the subscription business [laugh] back then.Corey: And area I want to explore here is you mentioned that you double-majored. One of those majors was computer science—art history was sort of set aside for the moment, it doesn't really align with either direction here—then you served as a research associate turned analyst, and then you went into product marketing, which is an interesting direction to go in. Why'd you do it?Rachel: You know, product marketing and industry analysts are there's a lot of synergy; there's a lot of things that are in common between those two. And in fact, when you see people moving back and forth from the analyst world to the vendor side, a lot of the time it is to product marketing or product management. I mean, product marketing, our whole job is to take really complex technical concepts and relate them back to business concepts and make them make sense of the broader world and tell a narrative around it. That's a lot of what an analyst is doing too. So, you know, analysts are writing, they're giving public talks, they're coming up with big ideas; that's what a great product marketer is doing also.So, for me, that shift was actually very natural. And by the way, like, when I graduated from school, I knew I was never going to code for a living. I had learned all I was going to learn and I knew it wasn't for me. Huge props, like, you know, all the people that do code for a living, I knew I couldn't do it. I wasn't cut out for it.Corey: I found somewhat similar discoveries on my own journey. I can configure things for a living, it's fun, but I still need to work with people, past a certain point. I know I've talked about this before on some of these shows, but for me, when starting out independently, I sort of assumed at some level, I was going to shut it down, and well, and then I'll go back to being an SRE or managing an ops team. And it was only somewhat recently that I had the revelation that if everything that I'm building here collapses out from under me or gets acquired or whatnot and I have to go get a real job again, I'll almost certainly be doing something in the marketing space as opposed to the engineering space. And that was an interesting adjustment to my self-image as I went through it.Because I've built everything that I've been doing up until this point, aligned at… a certain level of technical delivery and building things as an engineer, admittedly a mediocre one. And it took me a fair bit of time to get, I guess, over the idea of myself in that context of, “Wow, you're not really an engineer. Are you a tech worker?” Kind of. And I sort of find myself existing in the in-between spaces.Did you have similar reticence when you went down the marketing path or was it something that you had, I guess, a more mature view of it [laugh] than I did and said, “Yeah, I see the value immediately,” whereas I had to basically be dragged there kicking and screaming?Rachel: Well, first of all, Corey, congratulations for coming to terms with the fact that you are a marketer. I saw it in you from the minute I met you, and I think I've known you since before you were famous. That's my claim to fame is that I knew you before you were famous. But for me personally, no, I didn't actually have that stigma. But that does exist in this industry.I mean, I think people are—think they look down on marketing as kind of like ugh, you know, “The product sells itself. The product markets itself. We don't need that.” But when you're on the inside, you know you can have an amazing product and if you don't position it well and if you don't message it well, it's never going to succeed.Corey: Our consulting [sub-projects 00:14:31] are basically if you bring us in, you will turn a profit on the engaging. We are selling what basically [unintelligible 00:14:37] money. It is one of the easiest ROI calculations. And it still requires a significant amount of work on positioning even on the sales process alone. There's no such thing as an easy enterprise sale.And you're right, in fact, I think the first time we met, I was still running a DevOps team at a company and I was deploying the product that you were doing marketing for. And that was quite the experience. Honestly, it was one of the—please don't take this the wrong way at all—but you were at CloudHealth at the time and the entire point was that it was effectively positioned in such a way of, right, this winds up solving a lot of the problems that we have in the AWS bill. And looking at how some of those things were working, it was this is an annoying, obnoxious problem that I wish I could pay to make someone else's problem, just to make it go away. Well, that indirectly led to exactly where we are now.And it's really been an interesting ride, just seeing how that whole thing has evolved. How did you wind up finding yourself at CloudHealth? Because after VMware, you said it was time to go to a startup. And it's interesting because I look at where you've been now, and CloudHealth itself gets dwarfed by VMware, which is sort of the exact opposite of a startup, due to the acquisition. But CloudHealth was independent for years while you were there.Rachel: Yeah, it was. I was at CloudHealth for about three-plus years before we were acquired. You know, how did I end up there? It's… it's all hazy. I was looking at a lot of startups, I was looking for, like, you know, a Series B company, about 50 people, I wanted something in the public cloud space, but not storage—if I could get away from storage that was the dream—and I met the folks from CloudHealth, and obviously, I hadn't heard about—I didn't know about cloud cost management or cloud governance or FinOps, like, none of those were things back then, but I was I just was really attracted to the vision of the founders.The founders were, you know, Joe Kinsella and Dan Phillips and Dave Eicher, and I was like, “Hey, they've built startups before. They've got a great idea.” Joe had felt this pain when he was a customer of AWS in the early days, and so I was like—Corey: As have we all.Rachel: Right?Corey: I don't think you'll find anyone in this space who hasn't been a customer in that situation and realized just how painful and maddening the whole space is.Rachel: Exactly, yeah. And he was an early customer back in, I think, 2014, 2015. So yeah, I met the team, I really believed in their vision, and I jumped in. And it was really amazing journey, and I got to build a pretty big team over time. By the time we were acquired a couple of years later, I think we were maybe three or 400 people. And actually, fun story. We were acquired the same week my son was born, so that was an exciting experience. A lot of change happened in my life all at once.But during the time there, I got to, you know, work with some really, really cool large cloud-scale organizations. And that was during that time that I started to learn more about Kubernetes and Mesos at the time, and started on the journey that led me to where I am now. But that was one of the happiest accidents, similar to the happy accident of, like, how did I end up at Forrester? Well, I didn't get the job at Google. [laugh]. How did I end up at CloudHealth? I got connected with the founders and their story was really inspiring.Corey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured and fully managed with built in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: make your data sing.Corey: It's amusing to me the idea that, oh, you're at NetApp if you want to go do something that is absolutely not storage. Great. So, you go work at CloudHealth. You're like, “All right. Things are great.” Now, to take a big sip of scalding hot coffee and see just how big AWS billing data could possibly be. Yeah, oops, you're a storage company all over again.Some of our, honestly, our largest bills these days are RDS, Athena, and of course, S3 for all of the bills storage we wind up doing for our customers. And it is… it is not small. And that has become sort of an eye-opener for me just the fact that this is, on some level, a big data problem.Rachel: Yeah.Corey: And how do you wind up even understanding all the data that lives in just the outputs of the billing system? Which I feel is sort of a good setup for the next question of after the acquisition, you stayed at VMware for a while and then matriculated out to where you are now where you're the Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere, which is in the observability space. How did you get there from cloud bills?Rachel: Yeah. So, it all makes sense when I piece it together in my mind. So, when I was at CloudHealth, one of the big, big pain points I was seeing from a lot of our customers was the growth in their monitoring bills. Like, they would be like, “Okay, thanks. You helped us, you know, with our EC2 reservations, and we did right-sizing, and you help with this. But, like, can you help with our Datadog bill? Like, can you help with our New Relic bill?”And that was becoming the next biggest line item for them. And in some cases, they were spending more on monitoring and APM and like, what we now call some things observability, they were spending more on that than they were on their public cloud, which is just bananas. So, I would see them making really kind of bizarre and sometimes they'd have to make choices that were really not the best choices. Like, “I guess we're not going to monitor the lab anymore. We're just going to uninstall the agents because we can't pay this anymore.”Corey: Going down from full observability into sampling. I remember that. The New Relic shuffle is what I believe we call it at the time. Let's be clear, they have since fixed a lot of their pricing challenges, but it was the idea of great suddenly we're doing a lot more staging environments, and they come knocking asking for more money but it's a—I don't need that level of visibility in the pre-prod environments, I guess. I hate doing it that way because then you have a divergence between pre-prod and actual prod. But it was economically just a challenge. Yeah, because again, when it comes to cloud, architecture and cost are really one and the same.Rachel: Exactly. And it's not so much that, like—sure, you know, you can fix the pricing model, but there's still the underlying issue of it's not black and white, right? My pre-prod data is not the same value as my prod data, so I shouldn't have to treat it the same way, shouldn't have to pay for it the same way. So, seeing that trend on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, 2017, 2018, I started working on the container cost allocation products at CloudHealth, and we were—you know, this was even before that, maybe 2017, we were arguing about, like, Mesos and Kubernetes and which one was going to be, and I got kind of—got very interested in that world.And so once again, as I was getting to the point where I was ready to leave CloudHealth, I was like, okay, there's two key things I'm seeing in the market. One is people need a change in their monitoring and observability; what they're doing now isn't working. And two, cloud-native is coming up, coming fast, and it's going to really disrupt this market. So, I went looking for someone that was at the intersection of the two. And that's when I met the team at Chronosphere, and just immediately hit it off with the founders in a similar way to where I hit it off with the founders that CloudHealth. At Chronosphere, the founders had felt pain—Corey: Team is so important in these things.Rachel: It's really the only thing to me. Like, you spend so much time at work. You need to love who you work with. You need to love your—not love them, but, you know, you need to work with people that you enjoy working with and people that you learn from.Corey: You don't have to love all your coworkers, and at best you can get away with just being civil with them, but it's so much nicer when you can have a productive, working relationship. And that is very far from we're going to go hang out, have beers after work because that leads to a monoculture. But the ability to really enjoy the people that you work with is so important and I wish that more folks paid attention to that.Rachel: Yeah, that's so important to me. And so I met the team, the team was fantastic, just incredibly smart and dedicated people. And then the technology, it makes sense. We like to joke that we're not just taking the box—the observability box—and writing Kubernetes in Crayon on the outside. It was built from the ground up for cloud-native, right?So, it's built for this speed, containers coming and going all the time, for the scale, just how much more metrics and observability data that containers emit, the interdependencies between all of your microservices and your containers, like, all of that stuff. When you combine it makes the older… let's call them legacy. It's crazy to call, like, some of these SaaS solutions legacy but they really are; they weren't built for cloud-native, they were built for VMs and a more traditional cloud infrastructure, and they're starting to fall over. So, that's how I got involved. It's actually, as we record, it's my one-year anniversary at Chronosphere. Which is, it's been a really wild year. We've grown a lot.Corey: Congratulations. I usually celebrate those by having a surprise meeting with my boss and someone I've never met before from HR. They don't offer your coffee. They have the manila envelope of doom in front of them and hold on, it's going to be a wild meeting. But on the plus side, you get to leave work early today.Rachel: So, good thing you run in your own business now, Corey.Corey: Yeah, it's way harder for me to wind up getting surprise-fired. I see it coming [laugh]—Rachel: [laugh].Corey: —aways away now, and it looks like an economic industry trend.Rachel: [sigh]. Oh, man. Well, anyhow.Corey: Selfishly, I have to ask. You spent a lot of time working in cloud cost, to a point where I learned an awful lot from you as I was exploring the space and learning as I went. And, on some level, for me at least, it's become an aspect of my identity, for better or worse. What was it like for you to leave and go into an orthogonal space? And sure, there's significant overlap, but it's a very different problem aimed at different buyers, and honestly, I think it is a more exciting problem that you are in now, from a business strategic perspective because there's a limited amount of what you can cut off that goes up theoretically to a hundred percent of the cloud bill. But getting better observability means you can accelerate your feature velocity and that turns into something rather significant rather quickly. But what was it like?Rachel: It's uncomfortable, for sure. And I tend to do this to myself. I get a little bit itchy the same way I wanted to get out of storage. It's not because there's anything wrong with storage; I just wanted to go try something different. I tend to, I guess, do this to myself every five years ago, I make a slightly orthogonal switch in the space that I'm in.And I think it's because I love learning something new. The jumping into something new and having the fresh eyes is so terrifying, but it's also really fun. And so it was really hard to leave cloud cost management. I mean, I got to Chronosphere and I was like, “Show me the cloud bill.” And I was like, “Do we have Reserved Instances?” Like, “Are we doing Committed Use Discounts with Google?”I just needed to know. And then that helped. Okay, I got a look at the cloud bill. I felt a little better. I made a few optimizations and then I got back to my actual job which was, you know, running product marketing for Chronosphere. And I still love to jump in and just make just a little recommendation here and there. Like, “Oh, I noticed the costs are creeping up on this. Did we consider this?”Corey: Oh, I still get a kick out of that where I was talking to an Amazonian whose side project was 110 bucks a month, and he's like, yeah, I don't think you could do much over here. It's like, “Mmm, I'll bet you a drink I can.”—Rachel: Challenge accepted.Corey: —it's like, “All right. You're on.” Cut it to 40 bucks. And he's like, “How did you do that?” It's because I know what I'm doing and this pattern repeats.And it's, are the architectural misconfigurations bounded by contacts that turn into so much. And I still maintain that I can look at the AWS bill for most environments for last month and have a pretty good idea, based upon nothing other than that, what's going on in the environment. It turns out that maybe that's a relatively crappy observability system when all is said and done, but it tells an awful lot. I can definitely see the appeal of wanting to get away from purely cost-driven or cost-side information and into things that give a lot more context into how things are behaving, how they're performing. I think there's been something of an industry rebrand away from monitoring, alerting, and trending over time to calling it observability.And I know that people are going to have angry opinions about that—and it's imperative that you not email me—but it all is getting down to the same thing of is my site up or down? Or in larger distributed systems, how down is it? And I still think we're learning an awful lot. I cringe at the early days of Nagios when that was what I was depending upon to tell me whether my site was up or not. And oh, yeah, turns out that when the Nagios server goes down, you have some other problems you need to think about. It became this iterative, piling up on and piling up on and piling up on until you can get sort of good at it.But the entire ecosystem around understanding what's going on in your application has just exploded since the last time I was really running production sites of any scale, in anger. So, it really would be a different world today.Rachel: It's changing so fast and that's part of what makes it really exciting. And the other big thing that I love about this is, like, this is a must-have. This is not table stakes. This is not optional. Like, a great observability solution is the difference between conquering a market or being overrun.If you look at what our founders—our founders at Chronosphere came from Uber, right? They ran the observability team at Uber. And they truly believe—and I believe them, too—that this was a competitive advantage for them. The fact that you could go to Uber and it's always up and it's always running and you know you're not going to have an issue, that became an advantage to them that helped them conquer new markets. We do the same thing for our customers. Corey: The entire idea around how these things are talked about in terms of downtime and the rest is just sort of ludicrous, on some level, because we take specific cases as industry truths. Like, I still remember, when Amazon was down one day when I was trying to buy a pair of underwear. And by that theory, it was—great, I hit a 404 page and a picture of a dog. Well, according to a lot of these industry truisms, then, well, one day a week for that entire rotation of underpants, I should have just been not wearing any. But no here in reality, I went back an hour later and bought underpants.Now, counterpoint: If every third time I wound up trying to check out at Amazon, I wound up hitting that error page, I would spend a lot more money at Target. There is a point at which repeated downtime comes at a cost. But one-offs for some businesses are just fine. Counterpoint with if Uber is down when you're trying to get a ride, well, that ride [unintelligible 00:28:36] may very well be lost for them and there is a definitive cost. No one's going to go back and click on an ad as well, for example, and Amazon is increasingly an advertising company.So, there's a lot of nuance to it. I think we can generally say that across the board, in most cases, downtime bad. But as far as how much that is and what form that looks like and what impact that has on your company, it really becomes situationally dependent.Rachel: I'm just going to gloss over the fact that you buy your underwear on Amazon and really not make any commentary on that. But I mean—Corey: They sell everything there. And the problem, of course, is the crappy counterfeit underwear under the Amazon Basics brand that they ripped off from the good underwear brands. But that's a whole ‘nother kettle of wax for a different podcast.Rachel: Yep. Once again, not making any commentary on your—on that. Sorry, I lost my train of thought. I work in my dining room. My husband, my dog are all just—welcome to pandemic life here.Corey: No, it's fair. They live there. We don't, as a general rule.Rachel: [laugh]. Very true. Yeah. You're not usually in my dining room, all of you but—oh, so uptime downtime, also not such a simple conversation, right? It's not like all of Amazon is down or all of DoorDash is down. It might just be one individual service or one individual region or something that is—Corey: One service in one subset of one availability zone. And this is the problem. People complain about the Amazon status page, but if every time something was down, it reflected there, you'd see a never ending sea of red, and that would absolutely erode confidence in the platform. Counterpoint when things are down for you and it's not red. It's maddening. And there's no good answer.Rachel: No. There's no good answer. There's no good answer. And the [laugh] yeah, the Amazon status page. And this is something I—bringing me back to my Forrester days, availability and resiliency in the cloud was one of the areas I focused on.And, you know, this was once again, early days of public cloud, but remember when Netflix went down on Christmas Eve, and—God, what year was this? Maybe… 2012, and that was the worst possible time they could have had downtime because so many people are with their families watching their Doctor Who Christmas Specials, which is what I was trying to watch at the time.Corey: Yeah, now you can't watch it. You have to actually talk to those people, and none of us can stand them. And oh, dear Lord, yeah—Rachel: What a nightmare.Corey: —brutal for the family dynamic. Observability is one of those things as well that unlike you know, the AWS bill, it's very easy to explain to people who are not deep in the space where it's, “Oh, great. Okay. So, you have a website. It goes well. Then you want—it gets slow, so you put it on two computers. Great. Now, it puts on five computers. Now, it's on 100 computers, half on the East Coast, half on the West Coast. Two of those computers are down. How do you tell?”And it turns in—like, they start to understand the idea of understanding what's going on in a complex system. “All right, how many people work at your company?” “2000,” “Great. Three laptops are broken. How do you figure out which ones are broken?” If you're one of the people with a broken laptop, how do you figure out whether it's your laptop or the entire system? And it lends itself really well to analogies, whereas if I'm not careful when I describe what I do, people think I can get them a better deal on underpants. No, not that kind of Amazon bill. I'm sorry.Rachel: [laugh]. Yeah, or they started to think that you're some kind of accountant or a tax advisor, but.Corey: Which I prefer, as opposed to people at neighborhood block parties thinking that I'm the computer guy because then it's, “Oh, I'm having trouble with the printer.” It's, “Great. Have you tried [laugh] throwing away and buying a new one? That's what I do.”Rachel: This is a huge problem I have in my life of everyone thinking I'm going to fix all of their computer and cloud things. And I come from a big tech family. My whole family is in tech, yet somehow I'm the one at family gatherings doing, “Did you turn it off and turn it back on again?” Like, somehow that's become my job.Corey: People get really annoyed when you say that and even more annoyed when it fixes the problem.Rachel: Usually does. So, the thread I wanted to pick back up on though before I got distracted by my husband and dog wandering around—at least my son is not in the room with us because he'd have a lot to say—is that the standard industry definition of observability—so once again, people are going to write to us, I'm sure; they can write to me, not you, Corey, about observability, it's just the latest buzzword. It's just monitoring, or you know—Corey: It's hipster monitoring.Rachel: Hipster monitoring. That's what you like to call it. I don't really care what we call it. The important thing is it gets us through three phases, right? The first is knowing that something is wrong. If you don't know what's wrong, how are you supposed to ever go fix it, right? So, you need to know that those three laptops are broken.The next thing is you need to know how bad is it? Like, if those three laptops are broken is the CEO, the COO, and the CRO, that's real bad. If it's three, you know, random peons in marketing, maybe not so bad. So, you need to triage, you need to understand roughly, like, the order of magnitude of it, and then you need to fix it. [laugh].Once you fix it, you can go back and then say, all right, what was the root cause of this? How do we make sure this doesn't happen again? So, the way you go through that cycle, you're going to use metrics, you might use logs, you might use traces, but that's not the definition of observability. Observability is all about getting through that, know, then triage, then fix it, then understand.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people do want to learn more, give you their unfiltered opinions, where's the best place to find you?Rachel: Well, you can find me on Twitter, I'm @RachelDines. You can also email me, rachel@chronosphere.io. I hope I don't regret giving out that email address. That's a good way you can come and argue with me about what is observability. I will not be giving advice on cloud bills. For that, you should go to Corey. But yeah, that's a good way to get in touch.Corey: Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.Rachel: Yeah, thank you.Corey: Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, and castigate me with an angry comment telling me that I really should have followed the thread between the obvious link between art history and AWS billing, which is almost certainly a more disturbing Caravaggio.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.