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Podcast: CYBER (LS 54 · TOP 0.5% what is this?)Episode: Everything You Need To Know About the Pipeline HackPub date: 2021-05-13So another band of hackers struck again: a criminal gang known as ‘DarkSide’ unleashed a ransomware attack on the Colonial Pipeline, which shut down an integral line that supplies the East Coast with oil and gas. While the cyberattack itself didn’t physically knock out the pipeline with a string of code, the resulting attack majorly disrupted a critical piece of US infrastructure: Fuel. While the Biden administration is scrambling to deal with the fallout, questions surrounding DarkSide and its motivations persist. To chat more on that, Motherboard reporter Lorenzo Francheschi-Bicchierai is on the show. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from VICE, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

 Colleen Schnettler  00:00This week's episode of the Software Social Podcast is brought to you by Hopscotch Product Tours. Hopscotch Product Tours allows you to improve user onboarding with helpful product tours that guide your users to success. Also reduce frustration by helping users learn how to use your product without the need for demo calls, visit Hopscotch.club today and start delighting your users with Hopscotch Product Tours. Michele Hansen  00:28Hey, Colleen. Colleen Schnettler  00:29Hey, Michele.  Michele Hansen  00:31How you doing?  Colleen Schnettler  00:32I'm doing pretty well. I had a pretty uplifting week over here in the Simple File Upload world.  Michele Hansen  00:38You know what? That's good to hear. Because I feel like last week you were, we talked about how you were kind of feeling like you were in the void.  Colleen Schnettler  00:44I totally was. And, you know, I still feel that but I'm trying to, two things happen that changed my perspective. One, I got another check from Heroku. So that always helps. That doesn't hurt. And I'm kind of just trying to focus on my mindset as I approach this business. I have to say the check from Heroku because unlike Stripe, where you just get paid randomly when people, you know, when people pay, you only get paid once a month. So I've been telling you I have $800 MRR for like three weeks, and I haven't seen that money. So I just saw that money yesterday. So that was pretty exciting. Michele Hansen  01:21Nice Colleen Schnettler  01:22Yeah, I think I remember telling you my very first check. I got like I had enough leftover to buy a bagel.  Michele Hansen  01:28Yes. The bagel, the $20 bagel. Colleen Schnettler  01:30The $20 bagel. Well, this time it was it was quite a bit more so I could could have bought quite a few bagels. So that was pretty exciting.  Michele Hansen  01:37And I saw you tweeted out earlier this week that the Stripe payouts, I was just like payout, payout, payout. Colleen Schnettler  01:45I think what must happen is like people must have signed up, there were, like, four or five people who signed up like one day apart. And so the all of their invoices hit like right after each other. So I like signed on to my email every day, and it was like payout payout payout. It was awesome. It's very exciting. It was a lot of excitedness in terms of actually seeing the fruits of my labor on this product this week. So that was fun.  Michele Hansen  02:10Yay. Internet money.  Colleen Schnettler  02:12Yay, internet money.  Michele Hansen  02:13So where is your MRR at now? So I just checked and I'm at $975. I know. What? Oh my god, you're almost at the $1,000 MRR mark, and it's been, like, three months. Yeah, I guess it's, yeah, three, oh my god. Like,  Colleen Schnettler  02:35Yeah.  Michele Hansen  02:36That's, that's not common. Like, just for everybody else kind of like, listening like that is, that is very uncommon. Like, you're you're not like ending up on $1,000 after three months like Coleen like that's, that's normal. Like, I think it took us like six months, and even then that was kind of fast for a little project. Dude, 975. Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  02:57That's real money. It's real. That's why my last check. Because if you look at my checks from Heroku, and once again, I only get those once a month. It's not like Stripe. It was like the first one was like 150. The second one was like 250. This last one was like $570. I was like, that's like, real money. Like I could do something with that money. That's cool. Yeah, so, so from a monetary perspective, it's going great. I think I, I was struggling a lot. And I still am kind of struggling because I don't have a good feedback loop. I have been kind of unsure what to do next, and how to push the product forward. And it's funny because I like I think mid last week, I was just in a funk. And I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna build it the way I want to build it. I'm gonna develop all these features. I don't care what anyone tells me. Like, I'm just gonna do what I want to do. And you know, of course, everyone I talked to is like, that's a terrible idea. And the best way someone phrased it to me, they were like, what if you do go and you spend a couple months and you build all these features you feel like you need, you're still not going to know who your customer is. Like, I was complaining because I don't know who my customer is. And she was like, even if you spend this time to build that out, you'll be three months down the road, and you still won't know who your customer is. So have you made any progress? And I was like, oh, that's a good way to put it. So, I did a few interviews this week, which was really great. I'm really gonna take a pause on any kind of development work, and just talk to people. I mean, talk talk, talk.  Michele Hansen  03:01Colleen. Colleen Schnettler  03:02I know, I know. Michele Hansen  03:04You're done putzing around in the code garden and like, you're out there in the town square.  Colleen Schnettler  03:29I'm convinced. Like, between the, I mean, I probably five different people had to tell me this. But like you guys have convinced me that I just need to talk to more people. I just need, I don't know. Like, if you ask me who my ideal customer was, like, is, or who this provides value to, I can't identify that person, and casting a net of all developers is way too broad and too vague. So, that's really what I am focused on. In the next couple months, I think another thing is I need to calm down a little bit and slow down and be a little bit more patient.  Michele Hansen  05:21You said that you could go off and build something for three months, and it sounds like this person you were talking to, kind of helped you realize basically, like, you wouldn't know who you were building for and why you were building it and how they needed any of that to work.  Colleen Schnettler  05:39Yeah. And I think that's exactly the thing. So, so this week has been great. I spoke to three consultants, I have another one today, and I'm trying to get to five consultants, which I'm sure I can find one more person. Here's the thing, Michele, they all want different things.  Michele Hansen  05:56Oh. Colleen Schnettler  05:57So, unless I have the team and the budget of a CloudFlare, I can't build one product that fits the needs for all of these three different people.  Michele Hansen  06:09You know what this sounds like?  Colleen Schnettler  06:10No. Michele Hansen  06:11It sounds like the very beginning of a research loop to me.  Colleen Schnettler  06:15What's a research loop?  Michele Hansen  06:16Okay, so it's basically this idea that, like, you do a group of like, five interviews, and then you sort of analyze that and say, okay, of all of these different problems I've had, or rather, I've heard, which ones both sound, people are already paying for them to be solved, and they're unhappy with the way that they're being solved or in, they can also be paying in terms of significant amounts of time, like that counts. And then which of these problems do you think are relatively both feasible for you to solve, like, it would be possible for you to build something, and could also be like, commercially viable for you to sell, like, people would be willing to pay enough that would justify the time that goes into it. So basically kind of analyzing what you've heard so far, based on you know, how, how well those needs are already met, or, or not met?  Colleen Schnettler  07:07Yeah. Michele Hansen  07:08What they're already willing to pay for. And then, and then doing another round, focusing on those sort of top priority problems to figure out where you should go next. Like, it's completely normal that you would talk to five people and hear five different things. That doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong, if anything, that's really exciting.  Colleen Schnettler  07:30Oh, that made me excited. I felt like crap. Now, I don't know what to do.  Michele Hansen  07:35Oh, yeah, that makes sense. And you do it kind of like a pyramid, basically. You start out with a really wide scope in the beginning because you're casting a really wide net, like, you're just talking to all software consultants, which is a pretty broad, big net. And then you just sort of narrow it down based on where your capabilities are, and where people are willing to pay for stuff, and they're not happy with what they're currently doing.  Colleen Schnettler  08:02Yeah. Okay. So that was, that was really good. You're right. It's good to hear the details of what people struggle with, what their pain points are, how frequently they have those pain points. But yeah, I was only three interviews. So nothing magical came to light, like, oh, if I just did this one thing, I would have the product everyone wants, like, there was nothing like that. Everyone was building or wanted to build kind of a specialized solution for their needs. So, I guess the answer is just continue to talk to more people in that situation.  Michele Hansen  08:38Yeah, and, you know, also making it flexible, too. Like, if you genuinely hear that everybody wants something different, then, you know, making it so that they can customize it to their own needs is another route you could go on. But, I mean, it does not surprise me at all that you would not be hearing commonalities after just three people.  Colleen Schnettler  08:58Yeah. Yeah. Michele Hansen  09:00That's totally normal.  Colleen Schnettler  09:02Yeah. So, I think, I mean, before I start, like, what, I really want to go build an integration for this thing, or build an integration for that thing, but I think before I do any of that, like I said, I'm, you know, this is, there's no finish line here, right? Like this is this is my life, like, this is what I want to do. Even if I sold my company, I'd want to build another company. So I'm just trying to be a little bit patient and take my time and really figure out who the customer is and, you know, learn, learn about what they need and figure out how I can customize this product to their needs.  Michele Hansen  09:44It sounds like that, for you, like, that is almost the opposite of your instinct. Like your instinct is to go and build for three months.  Colleen Schnettler  09:57I mean, that's what I want to do. Like, let's be clear. Like I love people, but this process of like, finding people and like the, the whole, the whole logistics of it, you know, it's a lot. It takes a lot out of your day, I found that I'm a little nervous before I talk to them. it's a lot of emotional energy to like contain my own excitement, while I'm talking to them. And listen, like, that takes quite a bit of concentration as a beginner. Michele Hansen  10:24It takes concentration for me. It takes emotional energy for me. I mean, this is why I have this rule for myself that I don't do more than two in a day because the amount of energy that's required to sort of just, you know, I picture myself like this sponge that is just there to absorb whatever the other person says. Like, that requires a lot of energy, and, you know, a couple weeks ago, when I was first starting to interview all of my readers about my book, and my very meta interviews about customer interviews, I did six in one day, out of enthusiasm for this and, and at the end of that I was like, I heard so many amazing things. But I was also like, okay, now I remember why I've had two per day rule.  Colleen Schnettler  11:10Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's kind of, uh, definitely goes against my instincts to slow down and try and identify my customer. But I think the point that I want to build all these things, but until I know who I'm going to be serving, I don't even know what is important to build, and I can't know what is important to build, until I talk to people who need this product, who I, to identify them and talk to them. So that's going to, that's going to mean that I need to be a little more aggressive in finding people. I can't just like, I mean, I put a thing on Twitter, and I found five people, but I was only looking for five people. Like, I want more than I want a lot of people. So I think I'm going to try some of those strategies, you know, go on Reddit, and the strategies you write about in your book, actually. If you'd like to, I mean, you talk about this in your book, I reference your book, even though it's not done, like I haven't, I'm looking at it all the time, just so you know. Michele Hansen  12:06You know, one thing I want to note is that doing development work and customer research work, like, they're not an either, or. It doesn't have to be this switch, where you're only doing one at a time. Like I think, you know, the best cases are when this kind of research is just integrated into what you're already doing. And, you know, it does take time and focus, and like, context switching is difficult so you couldn't, you know, just like, you know, write code for like half an hour and then interview someone then right? Like, you can't sort of just switch back and forth super easily, but integrating it into your process. And maybe it's not that you, you know, don't go out and build these features for three months in a cave, or also that you don't go out and just talk to people for three months. It's that you do you know, both, you know, it's like, in the same way that, that people often ask me whether they should talk to people or whether they should look at analytics, and I'm like, porque no los dos? Like, do it at the same time.  Colleen Schnettler  13:07Yeah.  Michele Hansen  13:08Like, you could, you know, like, for example, I remember you talking about something you came out of the interview with Drew where you wanted to pull the code pen forward on the marketing side?  Colleen Schnettler  13:17Yes.  Michele Hansen  13:18Has that happened?  Colleen Schnettler  13:20No.  Michele Hansen  13:21Oh, I don't mean to, like call you out or anything. It's like, you know, there's like,  Colleen Schnettler  13:25Developer calling me out on my own podcast, Michele. Michele Hansen  13:28I'm sorry. Like, there's development work you can do, Colleen Schnettler  13:32Yeah. Michele Hansen  13:33That you'll find in these things as you go.  Colleen Schnettler  13:35Yeah. And I think that's, that's really the key. And that, that's will keep me in like a happy psychological state, too, because I'll get to, I'll get to do a little code, I'll get to talk to a little people. I get to do a little code, I'll get to talk to a little people. So I think, I think that you're absolutely right. Like that is a good path forward. I think, I guess what I'm trying to sort out, so when I built this thing I built it like to do one very specific thing, right? Like, it was designed to help you get public files from your users onto your site, and I was actually making, I was using it for brochures. We were doing real estate brochures, and people have started using it and all kinds of different ways, and that's been really instructive. So, even that piece of information is interesting, and a good thing to learn. So, yeah, so I think it's just keeping an open mind and making those kinds of changes that are kind of obvious, like, the code pen more accessible as I go forward. That's kind of, kind of my plan. Oh, and I wanted to say, so what I've been doing, I think I read this in your book, too, is I've been recording, obviously, with their permission and then dropping it in Otter.ai to get a transcript, and it's so awesome because now I can just read. It takes me five minutes to read instead of watching the 30 minute video, and I have the information, like, right there at my fingertips. I love that.  Michele Hansen  15:07It's awesome. Yeah, and Otter makes it so easy to do a transcript. It's actually what we use for this podcast. I should totally like, reach out to them and see if they'll sponsor us or something.  Colleen Schnettler  15:19I have a paid subscription.  Michele Hansen  15:21Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  15:21Because I was like, this is so worth it. Like, it's so cool.  Michele Hansen  15:24Yeah, then you could just, like, Colleen Schnettler  15:25That's been, Michele Hansen  15:25Print it out and highlight.  Colleen Schnettler  15:27Yeah, well, that's been such a great way to collate the data, because I was like, okay, if I want to get serious about this and talk to, you know, 15, 20 people, what, am I going to go back and watch all those interviews? I really don't want to. So, that's been a really cool way to get the data. I'm, like, pumped about that. And so, yeah.  Michele Hansen  15:46Yeah, if we were doing this, like in a sort of serious, like corporate, you know, company setting, what you would do is actually like, take all of those transcripts, and then clip out like, specific key phrases and key words, and sentences where someone is really clearly describing their different use case and then, I mean, I feel like there's this sort of this meme about how much like, UX people love post it notes, and like rearranging post it notes on boards. And, like, those, you know, all of those quotes basically end up as post it notes where you're making a timeline of the user's journey through trying to do something, and you're evaluating it on functional social and emotional levels. And like, everyone in the team is like placing post it notes in all of these different areas from all the different interviews. Like you might have one color that you use for a particular customer or a particular interview, for example. It's super time intensive. It's also really fun, and yes, it brings amazing results, but even if you're not doing that, like, even the fact of getting the transcript made, going, reading through it, pulling out the key phrases, and then just, kind of, knowing where to find that information yourself, or like, jotting that down on a card, or whatever that is, wherever you're keeping information so you know what to go back and reference later can be really helpful.  Colleen Schnettler  17:03Yeah, yeah, I'm pumped to go in this customer interview journey, I think I'm going to approach it the way you kind of describe where, of course, I'm not going to not touch the code, like there's going to be, there's going to be both, I'm gonna do them in parallel. But I really want to kind of identify who, who it is I can provide the most value to, and I want to be specific about it. So,  Michele Hansen  17:22Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  17:23That's kind of my goal going forward. And that's going to take a while. I think that's the other thing I have to remember is like, that's not going to happen in a week. That's going to take me a little while. So, Michele Hansen  17:33I mean, in some ways, it's never over. And I don't know if that really, I don't know if that helps you. Like, I don't know if that's something I should tell you now, but like, you know, I'm a firm believer that research should be just part of your ongoing workflow and sort of building this bank of customer understanding that is a living, breathing organism. And it's not that we do a research project for a month and then build stuff for three months, then do a research project. Like, it's just always happening.  Colleen Schnettler  18:00Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of all the wonderful info I got from your book while I was doing these customer interviews, how is the book going?  Michele Hansen  18:09It's good, it's good. I feel like we're, we're getting into the more serious editing phase. I'm kind of, Colleen Schnettler  18:17Didn't you have a picture this morning of like, the book on your desk with a bunch of pens on Twitter?  Michele Hansen  18:21Oh, yeah, I did, I printed it out, and I started reading it, like, as as a book and editing it, and I have four different colors of pens for my editing. And I used to do editing and print layout professionally, and I've sort of volunteer edited other people's books before.  Colleen Schnettler  18:40So random. Michele Hansen  18:41So yeah, no, it was like, stuff I did when I was in college. So, um, so, so yeah, I'm really pumped, because actually, this is a phase of it that I feel like I understand the best. And I know, like I have seen where, you know, there was one book that I helped edit that went on to win a major like, international prize and like, I didn't have anything to do with that, but like it, I saw what that book was in its early stages, and so I know that like, the fact that I'm tearing this to shreds right now is like a normal part of the process, like, and even really amazing books, like they everything starts out in a rough shape. I'm really appreciating how different writing a book is from writing a newsletter, like, how much of a gulf there is between that.  Colleen Schnettler  19:27Yeah. Michele Hansen  19:28Um, but, but I'm having fun. I feel like I have torn like the introduction absolutely to shreds. I mean, I had like four introductory chapters, and like, I think that was too many. Like, I was really burying the lead. So it's good. You know, I've brought in friends who are outside of our little bubble in tech to help me edit who were people that I know who will be harsh and honest with me, and they trust that I'm not going to be offended, and so I'm so grateful to have their help. And I've interviewed about 25 ish people now as part of it. So it's, it's going along. It's good.  Colleen Schnettler  20:11That's awesome. I'm excited. And I also heard, and by heard, I mean, you told me, that you took your live chat widget off of your website.  Michele Hansen  20:22I'm so excited.  Colleen Schnettler  20:23Talk to me about that.  Michele Hansen  20:24Okay, so this, so, this is something that has been building for a while, and for a long time, not not just since we moved here, but for a long time, the pings of live chat have been really stressful for us.  Colleen Schnettler  20:43I imagine.  Michele Hansen  20:44Yeah. And even, like, when we were in the US, like, we were on eastern time, and we would stop working around 4:30 or 5 on any given day, and we would still be getting requests, you know, through eight o'clock at the minimum, because of the West Coast, if not later, because of Hawaii and Alaska. And so we were sort of used to getting pinged from customer support at all hours of the day. It was not necessarily that there's a volume problem, because, so we have this idea that every support ticket only happens once.  Colleen Schnettler  21:18I think you've mentioned that.  Michele Hansen  21:19So this is kind of this principle that we operate on that whenever somebody, whether it's a bug or somebody is confused about something, like, if there's any way that we can make something clearer, or fix something, or basically prevent that ticket from ever happening again, we do that. So nothing gets closed until it's fixed. And, and so we operate on that principle, and that has really reduced our support volume over the years. But also, but still throughout that, and I think especially being on a European timezone serving North American customers like, that gets really difficult because you know, our daughter gets out of school at three o'clock, and then our customers wake up at three o'clock, and then it's just, like, it's just chaos, and having live chat specifically, like, people don't know when they can expect to get a live response versus when they have to wait. And I have experimented with so many different versions of copy on the little live chat widget, and none of them really seem to communicate that it's, like, it may not actually be live.  Colleen Schnettler  22:30Okay.  Michele Hansen  22:31And then on the flip side, some other people assume it's a robot and like, don't even use it.  Colleen Schnettler  22:35Yeah, that's me. But keep going. Michele Hansen  22:37I've seen that come up in usability testing, like, when I've had people screen share, and go through our site. So um, you know, a couple months ago, I was telling this to some founder friends, and what, what came out of it was basically, you know, live chat was really important for our growth, especially in the early days, like, I'm thinking like, like, 2016, 17, 18, especially when we're going full time. And, but the things that you do to grow are not necessarily the things you have to do to maintain and be a stable business, right? You know, we're growing. Like, we grew 56% last year, even though we didn't really try to, but growth is not what we optimize for. We optimize for stability. And so those things that we did in the early days to grow, like, could use different tactics now, and where the live chat kind of stresses us out and doesn't work for our family, but also like, it creates this expectation mismanagement with our customers. And people are still getting a reply directly from the founders, and just this morning, somebody emailed us, and then we got back to them an hour later. And then the response we got back was, "Wow, I'm so amazed that you were able to give me a helpful answer so quickly." And like, that was an hour versus immediate, and they still had that, like, positive reaction. So, we just did this the other day, we'll see how it goes. But, but I'm kind of nervous, excited, relieved all the same.  Colleen Schnettler  24:14So you still have the widget, it just says,  Michele Hansen  24:18No, we got rid of the widget. We removed the widget.  So there's no widget at all? Yeah, I mean, it's still, like, popping up in random places. So we were like, going through the codebase and trying to find all the different places we have that launcher. But, no, but we're still using intercom and the platform, like, so all the email is still coming into intercom, but we don't have the live chat bubble in the corner, and we don't have any prompts that say, you know, contact us if you have a billing question. Like, if you click on Contact Us, it doesn't pull up intercom chat widget. It instead creates an email.  Colleen Schnettler  24:50Okay, so if I am on your site, and I want to contact you, I now have to scroll to the bottom to the footer, or wherever, click contact us, and that'll pop up in my email so I can email you? Michele Hansen  25:00It's in the header. And,  Colleen Schnettler  25:01Okay, but,  Michele Hansen  25:02And then it's,  Colleen Schnettler  25:02Okay.  Michele Hansen  25:03It lists all the different emails. Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  25:06Now tell me about some concerns you have about making this.  Michele Hansen  25:09I think I, like, a concern I have is that, you know, people will be upset, right, that they may have expected an immediate response before. But, you know, at the same time, like, most of our long term customers, like, they email us anyway. And actually, most of them have our personal emails, and like, they don't expect an immediate response. You know, our, when I was talking to those friends a couple of months ago, they were like, "You guys are providing way too high of a quality of customer service. Like, I know that you guys pride yourselves on it. Like, even doing the customer support as the founders yourselves is so far beyond what most companies do, nevermind doing it live 24/7." Like, they're like, that's that, that doesn't make sense. And like, you guys can be, you know, be gentle with yourselves, basically. Um, you know, people have been like, "Why don't you just hire someone?" And the problem with it is that because we have solved all of the easy support problems, like, the ones we do get are fairly complicated. And if someone else were to take this over, they would need to be a support engineer, who, you know, is capable of debugging people's problems, but also like, able to negotiate contracts and do billing issues and like, like, they would need to somehow be a clone of the two of us. And it doesn't really seem reasonable. So, so yeah, I think, and again, it's, it's not the volume, that it's the problem, it was really that cadence. It's when someone is, you know, chatting and saying, "Hi, are you there?"  Colleen Schnettler  26:47Right. Michele Hansen  26:48Is the API working? My API key, my API key is, you know, it's doing this like, and it's like, and it's like, every, like one like, ping every minute versus someone sending us an email that's like, hey, like, so we're trying to use it earlier, and then this is what happens, and here's the error message. Like, people tend to be much more verbose and email. So,  Colleen Schnettler  27:05Yes. Michele Hansen  27:06I'm nervous. But we'll see, we'll see how it goes. I think that this is, you know, an adjustment that we need to make. Colleen Schnettler  27:13I don't think anyone will care. I think you will get absolutely no, I think this is all upside for you. I mean, it's gonna be so good for your quality of life. I don't, I literally don't think anyone's gonna care. I mean, I think you're gonna find that it doesn't have any impact on your business.  Michele Hansen  27:29We'll see. We'll see. But, you know, we're kind of operating under that idea that the things that we needed to do to grow, are not necessarily the same things that you do to, when you have a stable, secure business.  Colleen Schnettler  27:43Yeah.  Michele Hansen  27:44Yeah. Which is kind of weird, like, also in the software world, cuz I feel like, you know, we talk about this all the time, that if you're trying to build a, you know, sort of, quote, unquote, like, Calm company, right, like, you're not going down the unicorn route. Like, like most of the advice and growth tactics, and everything out, like, business advice is geared towards those companies that want to be huge, and less so towards us little one, two person companies. Like, the things that make sense for us, or, you know, we have a totally different set of incentives and resources and constraints and goals. Like, all those things are so different, that the fact that we're all in software is, is almost sort of beside the point.  Colleen Schnettler  28:29It is complete, it is wild, isn't it? Like how different the tactics are.  Michele Hansen  28:34Like we have more in common with a small retail business, but we also don't fit in with them because we're not a physical business. Like, it's like, I don't know, small SaaS. We're like, we're just a weird breed, man. Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  28:50Well, I hope it I hope it alleviate some of that pressure and stress. I imagine, especially with the timezone issues since you guys have moved, that's got to be just challenging.  Michele Hansen  29:02Yeah, my friends who also, you know, run SaaS's out of Europe with North American customers, like, I have talked to them a little bit about this and they're like, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. It's really tough. Colleen Schnettler  29:18Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well, I'm, I'm glad. I think, I feel like, this is gonna work for you. Michele Hansen  29:25We'll see. Maybe in six months we'll be like, oh my god, we don't have any new customers and everybody cancelled because we don't have the chat thing, but I hope not.  Colleen Schnettler  29:33I mean, honestly, and I know you said they, they come in two groups, but I just assumed there will not be a person on the other side of the chat widget. So, if I hit your chat widget, I just assume I'm going to send you an email. You know what I mean? I think you'll be fine.   Michele Hansen  29:47Yeah, I think people have totally different expectations. And what we have tried to communicate is that we're not making it harder to contact us, like we're not, you know, offshoring our support. Like, you can still go to the header and click, like, contact. You can still email us, like, it's still the two founders doing the support. It's just one of the tools we use for that is going away.  Colleen Schnettler  30:13Yeah, cool. I can't wait to hear an update on how that goes. All right. Well, I guess that'll wrap us up for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please tweet about it. That always makes us happy, and we love hearing what you think.

John 6:114 (ESV) Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand 6After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. 3Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. 4Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 5Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?6He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do. 7Philip answered him, Two hundred denarii worth of bread would not be enough for each of them to get a little. 8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peters brother, said to him, 9There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are they for so many? 10Jesus said, Have the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, about five thousand in number. 11Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated. So also the fish, as much as they wanted. 12And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, Gather up the leftover fragments, that nothing may be lost. 13So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves left by those who had eaten. 14When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!

In this clip, Benjamin Sens explains that here in South Florida there’s a lot of contractors that BOSS Construction Group has to deal with their unfinished work and expired permits. For more information, please contact us or call us at (954)541-9464. Transcript Benjamin Sens 0:13So there’s one thing I want to talk about the first. […]

Weekly Bible Study with Scott (February 2nd, 2021) *** Just because you may be in the Lion's den doesn't mean you give up, it is not over until God says it over! Daniel 6:10–23 (NKJV) 10Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Jerusalem, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days. 11Then these men assembled and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God. 12And they went before the king, and spoke concerning the king's decree: “Have you not signed a decree that every man who petitions any god or man within thirty days, except you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?” The king answered and said, “The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which does not alter.” 13So they answered and said before the king, “That Daniel, who is one of the captives from Judah, does not show due regard for you, O king, or for the decree that you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.” 14And the king, when he heard these words, was greatly displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him; and he labored till the going down of the sun to deliver him. 15Then these men approached the king, and said to the king, “Know, O king, that it is the law of the Medes and Persians that no decree or statute which the king establishes may be changed.” 16So the king gave the command, and they brought Daniel and cast him into the den of lions. But the king spoke, saying to Daniel, “Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you.” 17Then a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signets of his lords, that the purpose concerning Daniel might not be changed. 18Now the king went to his palace and spent the night fasting; and no musicians were brought before him. Also his sleep went from him. 19Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions. 20And when he came to the den, he cried out with a lamenting voice to Daniel. The king spoke, saying to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.” 23Now the king was exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he believed in his God. Isaiah 54:17 (NKJV) 17No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, And their righteousness is from Me,” Says the Lord.

FAITH MULTIPLIESWould It Be Ok With You If God Multiplied Your Financial Resources? Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand - John 6 1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Festival was near. 5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!” 8Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9“Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?” 10Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish. 12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.Three Acknowledgements: God Always Starts With What You HAVE. The Miracle Happened IN The HANDS of Jesus.Multiplication Always Produces A Party - In God’s Honor!One Principle: Everything Has To Be RETURNED To It’s Creative Source BEFORE It Can Be Multiplied. I Am Believing That God CAN And WILL Multiply The RESOURCES I Return To Him. The Only Alternative Belief Is That God DOES NOT LOVE ME & SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED With The Resources He Created.It’s Either One Or The Other!Tithing Is God’s Financial TRAINING WHEELS (10%) For Us To Learn The Principle Of Multiplication As A WAY OF LIFE in ALL THINGS! Tithing Isn’t Giving, It’s RETURNING. We RETURN Everything We Have To MULTIPLY Everything He Touches. “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. 11“Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes,” says the LORD of hosts. 12“All the nations will call you ble

A true disciple loves! Discipleship series #11 A true disciple LOVES! (It’s the energy room) By Pastor George Lehman   All I spoke about in this series from #1 to #10 will never be lived out successfully without LOVE. Luke 6:40 “A Disciple is not above his teacher but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”  One of the clear identification marks in a disciple’s life is the ability to love. Like seeds being sown, the result will be seen if it lands in good soil by the fruit it produces. If we took a poll of everyone’s life now and ask them, “Did you grow up with love?”, sadly the greater multitude would answer, “NO”. Growing up without love is its own form of suffering. Most of us are a product of a loveless society. “Loneliness and the feeling of being unwanted is the most terrible poverty.” Mother Teresa We live in a world that longs for love – whether you’re - young or old, - single or married, - rich or poor, everyone wants to be loved and to know someone cares about us. Love cannot be held captive by our thoughts, emotions, fears or our outside limitations. Make no mistake about it:  LOVE is the number one need in everyone’s life. What happens when LOVE is in short supply?  People feel emptiness inside a space that must be filled with something. God designed this space to be filled with LOVE. “God is LOVE” In the absence of it, people will turn to a variety of habits, addictions and distractions to temporarily fill the empty space – whether it be money, sex, drugs, food, smoking, drinking, gambling – these things NEVER satisfy our need for love. The path to feeling whole again begins with knowing that you are loved by people but especially by your Creator. Just remember that you are - accepted, - approved of and - treasured by God. 1 John 4:10 (Amp) - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loves us, and gave His Son as the payment for our sins. Sin separated us but LOVE drew us back. What is love?  The best definition I have ever found is in: 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (Amp) - Love is very patient and kind, never jealous or envious, never boastful or proud, never *haughty or selfish or rude. Love does not demand its own way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges and will hardly even notice when other do it wrong. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever truth wins out. If you love someone you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost. You will always believe in him, always expect the best of him, and always stand your ground in defending him. All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Haughty – Arrogant / Prideful No matter what your past was!! How unloved you may have been, since “The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us” Romans 5:5 (NKJV) You are now able to love supernaturally! We cannot use our past as an excuse to live out our new saved lives by acting love-less. John 13:34-35 (Amp) - I give you a new commandment: That you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another. By this shall all (men) know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (if you keep on showing love among yourselves). Love brings unstoppable FREEDOM when we learn to love as God intended.  We cannot do it on our own – we need HIM. Unless we have His love in our hearts, there is no way we can love others – wholly, purely or adequately. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 (Amp) - (THE KEY is) And may the Lord make you to increase and excel and overflow in love for one another and for all people, just as we also do for you, (You have to be a willing participant)13So that  He may strengthen and confirm and establish your hearts faultlessly pure and unblameable in holiness in the sight of our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) with all His saints (the holy and glorified people of God)! Amen, (so be it)!  #1  What does it mean to love God? Simply put, to love God is to obey Him.  Partial obedience is disobedience. John 14:15 (Amp) - If you (really) love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands. 1 John 5:3 (NKJV) – For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. The first four commandments are primarily directed at God, while the last six are directed at man. Proverbs 8:17 (Message) - I love those who love me; those who look for me find me. #2  What does it mean to “love yourself?” Loving God and accepting that He loves you are the foundation for loving yourself and for experiencing self-confidence and self-esteem in who you are and what you are. It’s not about being self-centered or having an ego. Proverbs 27:2 (Message) - Don’t call attention to yourself; let others do that for you. Having confidence in loving yourself will give you confidence to be inspired and not threatened by the success of others. You don’t become discouraged because you know who you are in Christ. When you love yourself, it includes self-discipline, taking responsibility and knowing it’s us who have a part to play in our success! #3  What does it mean to “love your neighbor?” Mark 12:30-31 (NIV) – 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31The second is this: “Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” The foundation to love your neighbor is comprised in two parts. A proper love of self. Hurting people hurt people. A desire to love others as Christ loved us. Loving your neighbor is treating them as you would like to be treated – stop majoring on the minors! - Focus on their strengths not their weaknesses - Focus on their positives not the Negatives - Focus on their success and not their failures. - Being an encouragement to them not a discouraging pain in the ....NECK Why does God command us to love other people?  I mean we have all been hurt, abused, ripped off, lied to, criticized, even insulted etc. etc... Agreeing not to retaliate is good but God is asking us to go even further and to LOVE them! WHY?  For our benefit.  It puts you into a positive attitude to receive “MORE”.  From God’s perspective. Loving others demonstrates our obedience to God and placing our desires second to His – not ‘when I feel like it’.  This is a sure sign of maturity and character development. We love the most when we love those that are the least loveable.  When others don’t love us we have a chance to show what’s really in our hearts. Love is an act of the will, not the exercise of emotions.  Haggai Love that is given might not be returned. “This is a fact of life.” Jesus commanded us to love anyway. He did not say we would be loved in return. I do believe however that we always someway, somewhere, somehow, someday will reap what we sow. Giving love and expecting love in return is conditional love. Loving is simply part of our discipleship service to others.

10The prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be given to you searched and enquired about this rescue. 11They asked what sort of time it would be, the time that the Messiah's spirit within them was indicating when speaking of the Messiah's sufferings and subsequent glory. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they were ministering these things – things which have now been announced to you by the holy spirit who was sent from heaven, through those who preached the good news to you. The angels long to gaze on these things! 13So fasten your belts – the belts of your minds! Keep yourselves under control. Set your hope completely on the grace that will be given you when Jesus the Messiah is revealed. 14As children of obedience, don't be squashed into the shape of the passions you used to indulge when you were still in ignorance. 15Rather, just as the one who called you is holy, so be holy yourselves, in every aspect of behaviour. 16It is written, you see, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.' The Bible for Everyone: A New Translation . SPCK. Kindle Edition. Open my eyes to your presence Open my ears to your call Open my heart to you love May I open my arms to others May I open my heart to strangers May I open my door to callers That I may be open you you Lord Open this day and for evermore

In this episode of Beneath the Subsurface we turn back time with Daniel Orange, our ONE Partner for multibeam technology and seafloor mapping - and incredible storyteller - and Duncan Bate, our Director of Project Development in the Gulf of Mexico and Geosciences. Dan takes Duncan and Erica on an expansive journey through time to meet a special variety of archea that dwell in the impossible oases surrounding sea bottom vents. We also explore the relatively recent discoveries in geoscience leading to seafloor mapping and how seep hunting offshore can enrich the exploration process today. TABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro03:35 - What is a seep?09:06 - The impossible oasis11:45 - Chemotrophic life24:15 - Finding seeps26:51 - The invention of multibeam technology30:11 - Seep hunting with multibeam32:48 - Seismic vs. multibeam34:43 - Acquiring multibeam surveys44:32 - The importance of navigation46:20 - Water column anomalies49:12 - Seeps sampling and exploration56:23 - Multibeam targets59:12 - Multibeam strategy1:03:11 - Reservoir content1:06:44 - A piece of the puzzle1:10:21 - ConclusionEXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODELearn more about TGS in the Gulf of MexicoOtos MultibeamEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of Geoscience and technology. From the Software Development Department here at TGS. I'm your host, Erica Conedera. For our fourth episode, we'll welcome a very special guest speaker who offers a uniquely broad perspective on the topic of sea floor mapping. We'll learn about the technology of multibeam surveys, why underwater oil seeps are the basis of life as we know it and how the answer to the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg is the Sun. I'm here today with Duncan Bate, our director of projects for the US and Gulf of Mexico. Do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself Duncan?Duncan Bate:00:00:56Sure, yeah, thanks. I basically look after the development of all new projects for TGS in the, in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm here today because a few years ago we worked on a multi beam seep hunting project in the Gulf of Mexico. So I can share some of my experiences and - having worked on that project.Erica:00:01:15Awesome. And then we have our special guest star, Dan Orange. He is a geologist and geophysicist with Oro Negro exploration. Hi Dan.Dan Orange:00:01:24Good morning.Erica:00:01:25Would you like to introduce yourself briefly for us?Dan:00:01:28Sure. Let's see, I grew up in New England, Texas, so I went to junior high school, just a few miles from where we're recording this. But I did go to MIT where I got my bachelor's and master's degree in geology, then went out to UC Santa Cruz to do my PhD and my PhD had field work both onshore and offshore and involved seeps. So we'll come back to that. And also theoretical work as well. I had a short gig at Stanford and taught at Cal State Monterey Bay and spent five years at the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute. Again, pursuing seeps. I left MBARI and started working with the oil patch in 1997 and it was early days in the oil industry pushing off the shelf and heading toward deep water and seeps were both a bug and a feature. So we started applying seep science to the oil industry and have been doing that for oh, now 21-22 years.Dan:00:02:32The entire time that I was at Embargin, and working with the oil patch. And in fact, ongoing, I do research for the US Navy through the Office of Naval Research. It started out involving seeps and canyon formation and it's evolved into multibeam seafloor mapping and acoustics. And that continues. So in the oil patch I was with AOA geophysics, we formed a company AGO to commercialize controlled source EM sold that to Schlumberger. And then we formed an oil company, Black Gold Energy, that would use seeps as a way to, go into oil exploration. And we sold that to NYKO, since leaving Black Gold with Oro Negro. We've been teaming with TGS since 2014 so now going on five years mapping the sea floor, I think we just passed one and a quarter million square kilometers, mapping with TGS as we mapped the sea floor and sample seeps, pretty much around the world for exploration.Erica:00:03:35Awesome. So let's begin our discussion today with what is a seep, if you can elucidate that for us.Dan:00:03:41So a seep is just what it sounds like. It's, it's a place on the earth's surface where something leaks out from beneath. And in our case it's oil and gas. Now seeps have been around since the dawn of humanity. The seeps are referenced in the Bible and in multiple locations seeps were used by the ancient Phoenicians to do repairs on ships they use as medicines and such. And in oil exploration seeps have been used to figure out where to look for oil since the beginning of the oil age. In fact that, you know, there seeps in, in Pennsylvania near Titusville where colonel Drake drilled his first well, where Exxon, had a group of, of people that they call the rover boys that went around the world after World War II looking for places on the Earth's surface that had big structures and oil seeps.Dan:00:04:39Because when you have a seep at the sea floor with or on the Earth's surface with oil and gas, you know that you had organic matter that's been cooked the right amount and it's formed hydrocarbons and it's migrating and all those things are important to findings, you know, economic quantities of oil and gas. So seeps have been used on land since the beginning of oil and gas exploration. But it wasn't until the 1990s that seeps began to affect how we explore offshore. So that's seeps go back to since the dawn of humanity, they were used in oil exploration from the earliest days, the 1870's and 80's onward. But they've been used offshore now since the mid 1990s. So that's, that's kind of, that seeps in context.Duncan:00:05:31But it's actually the, I, the way I like to think about it, it's the bit missing from the, "What is Geology 101" that every, everyone in the oil and gas industry has to know. They always show a source rock and a migration to a trap and a seal. But that actually misses part of the story. Almost every basin in the world has leakage from that trap, either, either directly from the source rock or from the trap. It either fills to the spill point or it just misses the trap. Those hydrocarbons typically make their way to the surface at some point-Dan:00:06:04at some point and somewhere. The trick is finding them.Duncan:00:06:08Yeah, that's the seep. And thus what we're interested in finding.Erica:00:06:12As Jed Clampett from the Beverly hillbillies discovered.Erica:00:06:15Exactly.Dan:00:06:15I was going to include that!Erica:00:06:19Yes.Dan:00:06:19Jed was out hunting for some food and up from the ground came a bubbling crude. That's it.Erica:00:06:27Oil that is.Dan:00:06:29Black gold.Erica:00:06:29Texas tea.Dan:00:06:30That's right. So that's that seep science. So today what we're going to do is we're going to talk about seep communities offshore because what I hope to be able to, you know, kind of convince you of is if oil and gas leak out of the sea floor, a seep community can form. Okay. Then we're going to talk about this thing called multibeam, which is a technique for mapping the sea floor because where you get a seep community, it affects the acoustic properties of the sea floor. And if we change the acoustic properties of sea floor or the shape of the sea floor with this mapping tool, we can identify a potential seep community and then we can go sample that.Dan:00:07:14And if we can sample it, we can analyze the geochemistry and the geochemistry will tell us whether or not we had oil or gas or both. And we can use it in all sorts of other ways. But that's where we're going to go to today. So that's kind of, that's kind of a map of our discussion today. Okay. So as Duncan said, most of the world, he Duncan talked about how in- if we have, an oil basin or gas basin with charge, there's going to be some leakage somewhere. And so the trick is to find that, okay. And so, we could, we could look at any basin in the world and we can look at where wells have been drilled and we can, we can look at where seeps leak out of the surface naturally. And there's a correlation, like for example, LA is a prolific hydrocarbon basin. Okay. And it has Labrea tar pits, one of the most charismatic seeps on earth cause you got saber tooth tigers bubbling outDuncan:00:08:18It's literally a tourist attraction.Dan:00:08:20Right there on Wilshire Boulevard. Okay. And it's a hundred meters long by 50 meters wide. So a hundred yards long, 50 yards wide. And it, that is an oil seep on, on the earth surface in LA okay.Duncan:00:08:32Now, it's important to mention that they're not all as big as that.Dan:00:08:34No, no. Sometimes they're smaller. It could just literally be a patch of oil staining in the sand.Erica:00:08:41Really, that's little.Duncan:00:08:41Oh yeah. I mean, or just an area where there's a cliff face with something draining out of it or it, you know, it could be really, really small, which is easy to find onshore. You know, you send the rover boys out there like you mentioned, and you know, geologists working on the ground, they're going to find these things eventually. But the challenge, which we've been working on with, with the guys from One for the last few years, and now is finding these things offshore.Dan:00:09:06So let's, let's turn the clock back to 1977. Alvin, a submarine, a submersible with three people in it went down on a Mid-ocean Ridge near the Galapagos Islands. And what they found, they were geologists going down to map where the oceanic crust is created. But what they found was this crazy community, this incredible, oasis of life with tube worms and these giant columns with what looked like black smoke spewing into the, into the ocean. And so what they found are what we now call black smokers or hot vents, and what was so shocking is the bottom of the ocean is it's a desert. There's no light, there's very little oxygen, there's not a lot of primary food energy. So what was this incredible, oasis of life doing thousands of meters down on, near the Galapagos Island? Well, it turns out that the base of the food chain for those hot vents are sulfide rich fluids, which come spewing out of the earth and they fuel a chemically based, community that thrives there and is an oasis as there because there's so much energy concentrated in those hot sulfide rich fluids that it can support these chemically based life forms.Dan:00:10:34So that's 1977 in 1985 in the same summer, chemically based life forms, but based on ambient temperature, water, not hot water were found in the Gulf of Mexico and off the coast of Oregon that same summer, 1985 in the Gulf of Mexico, the base of the food chain, what was fueling this chemical energy was hydrocarbons, oil and gas, and off the coast of Oregon, what was fueling it was hydrogen sulfide. So this is 1985, the year I graduated college. And so I started graduate school in 1986 and part of my research was working with the group that was trying to figure out the plumbing that was bringing these chemically rich fluids up to the earth's surface that were feeding this brand new community of life. You know, what we now call cold seeps. So, we, you know, depending on what you had for breakfast today, you know, eggs or pancakes or had your coffee, all the energy that we've got coursing through our veins right now is based upon photosynthesis.Dan:00:11:45We're either eating plants that got their energy from sunlight or we're eating eggs that came from chickens that eat the plants that can, where the came from, sunlight. Everything in our world up here is based upon photosynthesis. So, but the seep communities, the hot vents and the black smokers and the cold seeps, the base of the food pyramid is chemical energy. So they're called chemosynthetic communities or chemoautotrophic because the bacteria get their trophic energy, the energy that they need to live from chemicals. And so the bacteria utilize the chemicals and organisms have evolved to host these bacteria inside their bodies. And the bacteria metabolize the chemical energy to produce the enzymes that these larger organisms need to live. So these larger organisms can include clams, tube worms, the actual bacteria themselves. But, so the kind of how does this work is- let's get, because if we understand how seeps work and we know that seeps can be based upon oil and gas seepage, then you'll understand why we're using these seeps to go out and impact, oil and gas exploration.Dan:00:13:09So the- at the bottom of the ocean, we have a little bit of oxygen, but as we go down into the sediments, below the surface, we, we consume all that oxygen and we get to what's called the redox boundary to where we go from sulfate above it to hydrogen sulfide below it. And so below this redox boundary, we can have methane, we can have oil, but above that redox boundary, the methane will oxidize and the oil will be biodegraded and eaten by critters and whatnot. Now, living at that boundary, are bacteria who metabolize these compounds, and that's where they get the energy they need to live. These bac- Okay, now kind of turned the clock even farther back before the earth had an oxygen atmosphere, the only way that organisms got energy to live was from chemicals. Okay? So before we had algae and we created this oxygen atmosphere that we breathe billions of years ago, the organisms that lived on earth were chemosynthetic.Dan:00:14:13So these bacteria survive today and they live everywhere where we cross this redox boundary. Okay? So there they're actually archaea, which are some of the most primitive forms of bacteria, and I'm not a biologist, so I can't tell you how many billions of years ago they formed, but they're ancient and they're living down there.Erica:00:14:33So they haven't changed since then. They're basically the same?Dan:00:14:36Nope.Erica:00:14:36Wow.Dan:00:14:36They figured out a way to get energy to survive. It works.Erica:00:14:40Why change it?Dan:00:14:41If you're an Archea, right? So they're living down there at that redox boundary. Now, if we have seepage-seepage, is the flow of liquids. You actually lift that redox boundary. And if you have enough seepage, you can lift that boundary right to the sediment water interface. If you step in a pond and you smell that, sulfide, that rotten egg smell, your foot has gone through the redox boundary.Dan:00:15:08Okay? And you've disturbed some archaea down there and they'll get nudged aside. They'll go find someplace else. Okay? So with seepage, we lift the redox boundary to the sediment water interface and, and the bacteria are there and they're ready to utilize the reduced fluids as their source of energy. And so you can see them, we have pictures. You can do an internet search and say, you know, bacteria chemosynthetic bacteria and images and look at and look at photos of them. They it, they look like, okay, when you put the Guacamole in the back of the fridge and you forget it for three weeks and you open it up, that's what they look like. It's that fuzzy. It's this fuzzy mat of bacteria. And those are the bacteria. They're out there. They're metabolizing these fluids. Okay. Now in the process of metabolizing these fluids, they produce the bacteria, produce enzymes like ATP.Dan:00:16:01And I wish my partner John Decker, was here because he would correct me. I think it's adinase triphosphate and it's an enzyme that your body produces and sends out to basically transmit chemical energy. Okay. Now at some point in geologic time, and I'll, I'll actually put a number on this in a second. The larger fauna like clams and tube worms, evolve to take advantage of the fact that the bacteria are producing energy. And so they then evolve to use the bacteria within themselves to create the energy that they need to live. Okay? So, what happens is these seep fauna produce larva, the larva go into, you know, kind of a dormant stage and they're flowing around the ocean. And if they sense a seep, okay. They settle down and they start to grow and as, and then they, they, they, the bacteria become part of them.Dan:00:16:56They're the, the clams. You open a clam in the bacteria live in the gills. Okay. And so they'd grow and, and so these clams and tube worms start to grow and they form a community. Okay. So that a clam, what a clam does these clams, they stick their foot into the, into the sediment and they absorb the reduced fluids into their circulation system. They bring that, that circulating fluid to their gills where the bacteria then metabolize these reduced fluids and send the enzymes out to the tissues of the clam so it can grow. So this clam does not filter feed like every other clam on the planet. The tube worms that host these bacteria in them don't filter feed. So the base of the food chain is chemosynthetic. But the megafauna themselves, don't get their energy directly from methane or hydrogen sulfide. They get their energy from the bacteria, which in the bacteria, you know, the bacteria happy, they'll live anywhere.Dan:00:17:59But sitting here in a clam, they get the reduced fluids they need to live and they grow. Now it's what's cool for us as, as seep hunters is different species have evolved to kind of reflect different types of fluids. So if you know a little bit about seep biology, when you pick up like a batheum Modiolus mussel, you go, Huh? There could be oil here. Okay. Because that particular mussel is found in association with, with oil seeps. Okay. So that we won't go too far down that path, but there are different organisms. The important thing is that these communities, form again an oasis of life, a high concentration of life where we have a seep. Now, the oldest seep community that I'm aware of is Devonian. So that's between 420 and 360 million years. It's found in the high atlas mountains of Morocco.Dan:00:18:58And that seep community, a fossil seep community includes the same types of clams in tube worms that we find today. Okay. But they're also found with authigenic carbonate. Okay. Which is like limestone. And so, and that limestone in cases, this fossil seep community and has preserved it for hundreds of millions of years. So where does limestone come from? So remember we've got methane, CH4 in our, in some of our seep fluids. Well, if that's oxidized by bacteria, cause they're going to get energy from the methane they produced bicarbonate, which is HCO3 as a negative charge on it. And that bicarbonate, if it sees calcium, they like each other. And so they'll form calcium carbonate, limestone. And since sea water is everywhere saturated with calcium, if we have a natural gas seep, the bacteria will oxidize in natural gas and the bicarbonate will grab the calcium to form this cement.Dan:00:20:04Now deep enough in the ocean, it actually is acidic enough that that cement will start to dissolve. So we just have this, we have a factory of of bacteria. It might be dissolving some places, but most of the places we look, the carbonate doesn't dissolve. So we've got clams, tube worms, we've got the limestone authigenic carbonate, and if the pressure and temperature are in the right field, that methane can also form this really cool substance called gas hydrate and gas hydrate is a clathrate the, it's a combination of water and methane where the water forms an ice-like cage and the methane sits in that cage. And so you can light this on fire in your hand and the gas will burn. Nice yellow flame will go up from your hand and the cage will melt. The ice melts. So you get cold water on your hand with flames going up. It, it's cool stuff.Erica:00:21:03Did you bring one of these to show us today?Dan:00:21:06The pressure and temperature in this room are not, methane's not an equilibrium. You need hot, you need high pressure, moderately high pressure and you need very low temperatures. So, if we had-Duncan:00:21:20Neither are common in Houston, (Laughter)Dan:00:21:22No, and we wouldn't be terribly comfortable if that was what it was like here in this room. But the, the important thing for us now as we think about seep science and, and seep hunting is that this, this limestone cement, the authigenic carbonate, the gas hydrate, the shells of a clam, okay. Are All harder. Okay? Harder, I will knock on the table. They're harder than mud. So the sea floor, most of the most of the world's ocean is gray-green mud and ooze from all sorts of sediment and diatoms and plankton raining down onto the ocean floor. So most of the world's oceans is kind of just muddy sandy some places, but sediment, it's where you get these seep communities that now we've, we've formed a spot that some that's harder and rougher than the area around it. And that's our target when we, deploy technologies to go out and, and look at seeps.Dan:00:22:26So, so hot smokers, hot vents were discovered in 1977. Cold seeps were discovered in 1985 and were found to be associated, in the Gulf of Mexico with oil and gas seepage. That's 1985. Those were discovered with human beings in a sub in submersibles. Later, we deployed robotic submersibles to go look at seeps, ROV's and even later we developed tools to go sample seeps without needing to have eyes on the bottom and we'll come and talk and we'll come back and talk about that later.Dan:00:22:57But for kind of recap, a seep is a place where something is leaking out of the earth surface. When we talk about seeps, we're talking about offshore seepage of oil and gas that supports this profusion of chemically-based life forms as well as these precipitants, the authigenic carbonate limestone and gas hydrate. And the important thing is they change the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Duncan:00:23:28Yeah. Then the key thing is that you've gone from having, seeps onshore, which are relatively easy to walk up to and see, but hard to find, to seeps offshore, which are impossible to walk up to or very difficult. You need a submersible to do it. But because of this, chemosynthetic communities that build up around it and our knowledge of that and now gives us something to look for geophysically. So we can apply some geophysics, which we'll get on to talk about next in terms of the multibeam, to actually hunt for these things in a very cost effective way and a very fast manner. So we can cover, as Dan said, right at the start, hundreds of thousands of square kilometers, even over a million now, in a cost effective, timely manner and identify these seeps from the sea surface.Dan:00:24:15Now fishermen, know where seeps are because all of this limestone provides places for fish to leave their larva where they might live, they call them refugia. It's a, it's a place where, you know, lots of little fish and where you have lots of little fish, you have lots of big fish. And since we're also increasing this primary productivity, you get, you get profusions of fish around seep communities. So we've found authigenic carbonate in the front yards of fishermen in areas where that we've gone to study seeps. And if you chip a little bit off it, you can go and analyze it in the lab or if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to tell you their spots. And that involves convincing them that you're not going to steal their spots and you're not gonna tell everybody where their spots are. But if you go into a frontier area, if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to talk to you, you might have some ideas of where to go look for them.Dan:00:25:14So it kind of, one other point that I wanted to make here about seeps is, remember I talked about how seep organism creates kind of a larva, which is dormant and it's kind of flowing through the world's ocean, looking for a seep community, doing some back of the envelope calculations. If, if a larva can survive for about a month. Okay. And you have a one knot current that larva can move about 1300 kilometers in a month, which is about the length of the island of Java. And it might be about the length of the state of California. So if you think now, so if you think about that, then all you need is a seep community somewhere to be sending out larva. Most of which of course never gonna survive. And then if we get a seep somewhere else, the odds are that there's going to be a larva bouncing along the sea floor that is going to see that and start growing.Dan:00:26:08So for us as explorationists as the, the important thing is if there's a seep, there's a pretty good chance that, that a seep community will start to form, if the seepage lasts long enough, it will form a community depending, you know, might be large, might be medium size, but it changes the acoustic properties of the sea floor. Okay, so that, remember we're going to talk about seeps what they, what, what's a seep and that is how it's related to hydrocarbon seepage out of the or natural gas oil, you know, reduced fluids. What we were going to talk about, and now we're going to talk about how offshore we use this technology called multibeam to go and find them. Okay.Dan:00:26:51So back in, back in the Cold War, the air force came up with a tool to map the former Soviet Union called synthetic aperture radar. And when the navy saw the air forces maps, they said, we want a map of the sea floor. And at the time, you know, if you remember your World War II movies, the submarine sends out a Ping, somebody listening on, their, on their headphones and and the ping comes back and the amount of time that it took for the ping to go out and the ping come back is how deep the water is. If you know the speed of sound in water. But that's, that's just one point directly beneath you, that's not good enough to get a detailed map of the sea floor. So, driven by these cold war needs, the navy contracted a company called general instruments to develop a tool to map the sea floor and they develop what's called SASS, the sonar array sounding system, which we now call multibeam.Dan:00:27:49In the 1960s, it was unveiled to the world during a set of, submersible dives to the mid Ocean Ridge, I believe in 1975 as part of the famous project. And the geoscientist looked at that map and it was a contour map of the mid ocean region. They said, holy smokes, what's that? Where'd that come from? And the navy said, well, we kind of developed a new technology and it was first commercialized in 1977 the same year hot smokers were discovered on the world's oceans. And it has been continuously developed since then. And in about the 1990s, it got resolute enough for, for us to take this, this kind of seeps, seep hunting science and take it offshore. So until then, 1980s, we were deploying submersibles. We were going down and looking at them. We had very crude maps. We had some side scan shows, a little bit about, the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Dan:00:28:46But it wasn't until the mid 1990s that we realized that with these tools, these sea floor mapping tools that had acoustic, analyzing techniques that we could identify areas that were harder and rougher and had a different shape, that allowed us to start, instead of just driving around and, and, we're finding one by, by luck or chance actually saying, Huh, there's a, there's an interesting acoustic signature over there. Let's go take a look at it. And deploying submersibles and ROVs and realizing that yes, we had tools that could, be used to, to map the sea floor and identify seeps and driven by their own interests. The Navy, the US navy was very interested in these and, was, was a early, early funder of seep science and they've continued with it as well as academic institutions around the world that got very interested in seep communities.Dan:00:29:45And in fact, NASA, NASA is really interested in seep communities because they're chemically based life forms in what are basically extreme environments. And so if NASA wants to figure out what life is going to look like on a different planet, or a different moon on it, or surrounding a different planet that doesn't have an oxygen atmosphere, here's a, a laboratory on earth that, that they can use. So NASA has been funding seep science as well.Dan:00:30:11So multibeam what is it and how does it apply to, to, to hunting seeps. So multibeam, which is this technology that was developed by and funded by the navy in the 1960s and commercialized in the 70s uses two acoustic arrays of transducers. one array is mounted parallel to the length of a ship. And when you fire off all those transducers, it sends out a ping. And the longer the array is, the narrower that beam is. That's how antennas work. So that that long array sends out a ping, which is narrow along track and a shape, kind of like a saucer. So if you can imagine two dinner plates put together, that's what this, ping of energy looks like. And that's what we call the transmit beam. So then if you listen to the sea floor with an array that's perpendicular to the transmitter ray, we are now listening to an area that's, that's narrow across track. Okay. And it's long elongate a long track. So we've got this narrow transmit beam in one direction that's, that's now perpendicular to the ship. And we've got a narrow receive beam that's parallel to the ship and where those two intersect is what we call a beam. And so with, with lots of different, transducers mounted, perpendicular to the ship, we can listen from all the way out to the port about 65 degrees down below the ship and all the way over to starboard, again, about 65 degrees. And we have lots of beams.Dan:00:31:51So right now the system that we're using, on our project has 455 beams across track. So every time we send out a ping, we ensonify the sea floor on, on these 455 beams. And as we go along, we send out another ping and another ping. And we're basically, we're painting the sea floor. It's, it's like mowing the lawn with a big lawn mower or using a Zamboni to drive around an ice rink. You can just think of it as as a ship goes along. We are ensonifying and listening to a wide patch of sea floor and we typically map, about a five kilometer, about a three mile, a wide swath, and we send out a ping every six or 10 seconds. Depends how, you know, depends on the water depth. And so we're able to map 1000 or 2000 square kilometers a day with this technique. This multibeam technique.Duncan:00:32:48Since a lot of our podcast listeners might be familiar with seismic is that's probably the biggest percentage of the, the geophysical industry. This is not too different. It's an acoustic based technique. I guess the main difference is are we live working in a different, frequency bandwidth. And also that we have both the receiver and the transmitter both mounted on the same boat. So we're not dealing with a streamer out the back of a boat. we have transmitter and receiver are both whole mounted. But after that it's all pretty similar to seismic. We go backwards and forwards, either in 2D lines or in a, in a 3D grid and we build up a picture. Now because of the frequencies we're working with, we don't penetrate very deep into the sea floor. but as, as we mentioned, we're interested in seeing those seep communities on the sea floor. So that's why we this, this is the perfect technology for, for that application.Erica:00:33:40Oh, can you talk a little bit about the post-processing that's involved with multibeam?Dan:00:33:44Well, let me- Erica, Great question. Let me, come back to that later cause I want to pay, I want to pick up on what Duncan talked about in and add one very important wrinkle. So first of all, absolutely correct, the frequencies are different. In seismic, we're down in the hertz to tens of Hertz and in Multibeam we're in the tens of kilohertz and in very shallow water, maybe even over higher than a hundred kilohertz. In seismic, we have air guns that send that radiate out energy. And we, we designed the arrays so that we get most of the energy in the direction that we're looking with multi beam. We have a narrow, remember it's one degree wide in here. If you got kids, see if anybody still has a protractor anymore, grab a protractor and look at how wide one degree is. It's very narrow.Duncan:00:34:39There's probably an iPhone app for that. (Laughter) see what one used to look like.Dan:00:34:43But with, with seismic, the air guns sends out energy and we listened to the reflected energy out on the streamer back behind the ship or on a node somewhere else. It's reflected energy. With multibeam, the energy goes out and it interacts with the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Most of it gets reflected away and we don't, we don't, hear that it, but some of it actually comes back in the same direction that the sound went out and we call that backscatter. So backscatter energy comes back to you and it's that backscatter that, can increase when we have hard and rough material either on the sea floor or buried below the sea floor. So the way that we process it is since we know the time of length, the time of path on how long it took to get out, hit the sea floor and come back, or you can correct for path lengths, energy radiates outward and spherical patterns. So we correct for spherical spreading. we know the angle that it hit the sea floor, so we correct for angle of ensonification. And then the next and most important things are where was the ship, when the pulse went out? And where is the ship when the pulse comes back, including what's the orientation of the ship? So we need to know the location, the position of the ship in X, Y, and Z to centimeters. And we need to know the orientation of the ship to tenths of a degree or better on both the transmit and the receive. But the key thing is, if we know that path length in the spherical spreading and we correct for all of that and we get a response that's much greater than we expected, we get higher backscatter energy and it's, it's those clams and tube worms authigenic carbonate gas hydrate that can increase the hardness and the roughness of the sea floor that kicked back the backscatter energy.Dan:00:36:46Okay. Now what happens if the oil and gas, or the reduced fluids if they shut off? Well, I'm sorry to say for the clams and the tube worms that they will eventually die. The bacteria will still live at that redox boundary as it settles back below the sediment. And then when we pile some sediment on top of that dead seep community, it's still there. The shells are there, the carbonate's still there. So with the, with multibeam that the frequencies, we use 12 and 30 kilohertz penetrate between two, three 10 meters or so into the sediment. So if you shut off the seepage and bury that seep community, they're still there. And if we can sample that below that redox boundary at that location, chances are we're going to get a oil or gas in, in our sample. And in fact, we encounter live seep communities very, very, very, very rarely, you know, kind of one in a thousand.Dan:00:37:50But, we, we encounter seep fauna down in our sample cores, which we'll talk about later, much more frequently. And, and we, we find hydrocarbons, we are very successful at finding hydrocarbons. And the key thing is we're using seep science to go look in, in basins or extend outward from basins in areas where there may be no known oil or gas production. And that's why the seeps are useful. So multibeam unlike a seismic, we got to collect the data, then we got it and you to do all sorts of processing and it takes a while to, to crank the computers and whatnot. Multibeam we can, we can look at it as it comes in and we can see the backscatter strength. We can see what the swath that it's mapping every ping, every six seconds. And it takes about, it takes less than a day to process a days worth of multibeam.Dan:00:38:47So when our ships are out there working every morning, when we get the daily report from the ship, we see another thousand or 2000 square kilometers of data that were mapped just the previous day. So it's for, those who can't wait, it's really satisfying. But for those of us who are trying to accelerate projects, it's great because when the data come off the ship, they're already processed. We can start picking targets and we can be out there, you know, in weeks sampling. So that's so multibeam it's, it's bathymetry, it's backscatter, but we're also imaging the water column. So if there's, a gas plume, coming out of the sea floor, naturally we can see that gas plume and, so that we can see the water column. We can see the sea floor or the bathymetry, and the backscatter. Erica, you asked, you know, about the processing and I talked about how we have to know the position and the orientation, of the ship, that means that we have to survey in using a laser theodolight.Dan:00:39:54We have to survey in every component of the system on the ship to, you know, fractions of a millimeter. And we drive the surveyors nuts because we are, we are more demanding than the, the BMW plant in South Carolina. And they point that out to us every time. Yes, we're more demanding. But if they have a problem with, with a robot in the BMW plant, they can go out and survey it again, once we put this ship in the water, I can't go survey the array that's now welded to the bottom of the ship. It's there. And so that's why we make them do three replicate surveys and do loop ties and convince us that we've got incredibly accurate and precise system. So that's when we survey the ship. We use, well we go back and we go and we check their math and we make sure all the numbers are entered into the system correctly.Dan:00:40:46We, measure the water column every day so that we have the best velocity data that we use to correct the, that position. We measure the salinity in the water column because it affects how energy is absorbed. It's called the absorption coefficient. We measure the acoustic properties of the ship. So we understand maybe we need to turn off the starboard side pump in order to get better multibeam data. And we evaluate every component of the ship. Something. Sometimes they'll have, you know, the, the waste unit was, was mounted onto the, onto the deck of the ship and nobody thought about putting a rubber bushing between that unit and the hall to isolate the sound. And it just so happens it's at 12 kilohertz. So it swamps your acoustic energy or degrades our data quality because it's all about data quality so that we can find these small, interesting high backscatter targets. We polish the hull. We send divers down every eight weeks or 12 weeks or 16 weeks because you get biofouling you get, you get these barnacles growing in a barnacle in between your acoustic array in the sea floor is going to affect the data. So we send divers down to go scrape the hull and scraped the prop.Duncan:00:42:05So it's probably worth mentioning that this is the same type of multibeam or multibeam data is the same data that is used in other parts of the oil and gas industry as well. So I mean, any pipeline that's ever been laid in the last few decades has had a multibeam survey before it. Any bit of marine infrastructure that an oil and gas company wants to put in the Gulf of Mexico. Certainly you have to have a multibeam survey ahead of time. what's different here is that we're, we're trying to cover big areas and we're trying to get a very specific resolution. So maybe it's worth talking a bit about that. Dan what we're actually trying to achieve in terms of the resolution to actually find seeps.Dan:00:42:42You got it. So we, we can, we can control the resolution because we can control how wide a swath we go and how fast we go. So, if you're really interested in, if you want to do a site survey and you want to get incredibly detailed data of a three kilometer by three kilometer square, you could deploy an autonomous underwater vehicle or an ROV and get very, very, very resolute, like smaller than half a meter of bin size. for what we do, where our goal is exploration, the trade off is between, do I want more resolute data or do I want more data and it that that is a tradeoff and it's something that we struggle with. And we think that the sweet spot is mapping that five kilometers swath and three miles wide, swath at about oh eight to 10 knots. So let's say about 16 kilometers an hour.Dan:00:43:40That gets us a thousand to 2000 square kilometers a day. And by acquiring data in that manner, we get a 15 meter bathymetric bin independent of water depth and our backscatter since we subsample that bathymetric bin for the backscatter, we can get a five meter backscatter pixel. So now if I have four, if I have four adjacent pixels, you know, shaped like a square, that's a 10 meter by 10 meter spot on the sea floor, it's slightly larger than this room. We could, you could see that now you might need a couple of more to be larger than that. So to have a target actually stand out, and that's about how accurate our sampling is with the core barrel. So, the long answer to your question is about a 15 meter bathymetric bin and a five meter backscatter pixel is what we're currently doing for our exploration work.Dan:00:44:32Now we pay attention to what's going on in the navigation and the positioning world because it affects our data quality. So the higher the quality of, of our navigation, the higher the quality of our data on the sea floor. So about a decade ago, the world's airlines asked if they could fly their airplanes closer together and the FAA responded and said, not unless you improve GPS and so sponsored by the world's airlines. They set up ground stations all in, in the, in the most heavily traveled parts of the world that improve the GPS signal by having an independent orbital corrections. What that means is for us working off shore, we take advantage of it. It's called wide area augmentation. And, using this system, which is now it's a, it's add on for a GPS receiver, we're able to get six centimeter accuracy of a ship that's out there in the ocean that surveying.Dan:00:45:27So that's six centimeters. What's that? About two and a half inches. And for those of us who grew up with low ran and very, you know, where you were lucky if you knew where you were to within, you know, a quarter of a mile. it's, it's just astonishing to me that this box can produce data of that quality, but that flows through to the quality of the data that we get on our surveys, which flows through to our ability to find targets. So I think, I told you about sub sampling, the bathymetry for backscatter and I've told, I told you about the water column and we've talked about the resolution. I think we've, we've pretty much hit what multibeam is. It's, it's a real time near real time acquisition, high frequency narrow beam. We image the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Okay and we use that to find anomalous backscatter targets.Duncan:00:46:20Well, let's talk about the water column a little bit more done because I know we've published some pictures and images from our surveys. Showing the water column anomalies. The backscatter data, in the water column itself can actually help us find seeps. The right mixture of oil and gas coming out of this, an active seep and migrating up through the water column can actually be picked up on these multibeam data also. So that's, a real direct hit that you've got to see and that it's actually still producing oil today,Dan:00:46:53Right, so when, when gas and oil leak out of the sea floor, the gas bubble begins to expand as it comes up, just like a would in a, in a carbonated beverage because there's less pressure. So that gap, that bubble is expanding. If there's oil present, the oil coats the outside of the bubble and actually protects it from dissolving into the water column. And so the presence of gas with a little bit of oil leaking out of the sea floor creates these bubbles that, are big enough to see with these 12 and 30 kilohertz systems. And so when we see a plume coming out of the sea floor, that's natural, a seepage of gas, possibly with a little bit of oil and it provides a great target for us to go and hit. Now those seeps are flowing into the water column and the water column has currents and the currents aren't the same from one day to the next and one week to the next.Dan:00:47:47So if we image a seep a couple of different times, one day it will be flowing in one direction and the next time we see it flowing in a different direction. The area in common between the two is pointing us toward the origin point on the sea floor. And that's what we're going to target. And if you, if you hunt around, look for NOAA studies of, of the US Gulf of Mexico, over Mississippi Canyon near where the deep water horizon, went down because there are, the, NOAA has published, images of the gas seeps in that area where there are natural oil and gas seeps leaking, leaking other, the sea floor. And these natural seeps occur all over the world. Okay? And they're bringing oil and gas into the water column. But remember, nature has basically provided, the cleanup tool, which is the bacteria. So where oil and gas settle onto the sea floor, there are bacteria that will consume it. You don't want a lot of it in one place, cause then then you've got, you know, a real environmental disaster. But natural oil and gas seepage goes hand in hand with natural seep consuming organisms that metabolize these fluids. So a multi beam seeps backscatter okay. That I think we've, we've talked about what the target looks like. Let's talk about how we go in and sample it.Duncan:00:49:12Yeah, no, I think that's the real key thing. Particularly here in the Gulf of Mexico. I mean we talked at the start about how I'm using seeps can tell you whether a basin has hydrocarbons in it or not. Clearly we're decades past the point of knowing whether there's oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico. So even in the deep water gulf of Mexico, especially here in the US side, we know that there's oil and gas, so that information is long gone. We don't, we don't need an update on that anymore. What we need to know is information about the type of oil, the age of the oil, the deep positional environment that the oil is deposited in. And if we can actually get a sample from these seeps, then that's the sort of information that modern geochemistry can start to pull out for us.Dan:00:49:57we've sat in the same meetings where the, the potential client companies have said, why are you, why are you gonna map the deepest part of the Gulf of Mexico? There's no oil out there. And lo and behold, we found anomalous backscatter targets on a diapirs, which are areas, mounds out in the deepest parts of the Gulf of Mexico. And lo and behold, if you, if you look at the data, know that that statement was incorrect. There is oil and gas out there in other parts of the world. We've had companies say, oh, this part's all oil and this part's gas. Well, how do you know that? Well, because we've drilled for oil out here and we don't think there's any oil. Once you get out there and you don't know, you don't know what you don't know until you go map it and sample it and then you come back, you put the data on their desk and they go, huh, hey, we were wrong man. I guess there's oil out there. And, and in other parts of the world where you know, we've done all our exploration close to land or in shallow water, we go out into the deepest part and nobody's ever drilled a well out there. So, you use the seep science to go to basically fill that in.Dan:00:51:09So in order to make money exploring for oil, you had to have organic matter. Originally it had to be, it had to be buried and cooked. Okay. So you needed temperature and pressure. You need time takes time to do that, then it needs to migrate. Okay. With the exception of unconventionals, we're not gonna talk about unconventional today with the exception of unconventionals, the hydrocarbons have to migrate, so they're concentrated so that you can go drill them and recover them. And they need to be in a reservoir.Dan:00:51:41And it has to be sealed. And so when we find a seep and all of that goes into what we talk about in oil exploration as the risk equation, like what's the probability of success? If you don't know whether you have a migration, you have maximum uncertainty and that flows through into your, into your risk. Well, if we find a seep, remember we've proven that there was organic matter. We've proven that it was buried and cooked for the right amount of time to create oil and gas and that it's migrated. We can't tell you anything about reservoir or seal or timing, but we can, we can materially impact the risk equation by finding a seep. Okay. So right before you drill a well, wouldn't you like to know whether or not there's oil or gas in the neighborhood? Cause a well can be a can be $100 million risk.Dan:00:52:34Okay. Usually you wouldn't, wouldn't you like to know? So remember when we started looking at seeps, 1977 for the hot vents 85 for the cold vents, we used human beings in a submersible. Later we shifted to using robotic submersibles where a human being sit on a ship in a control room, operate the ROV with joysticks, and you watch the videos come through. Well, those are great, but they're really expensive and you can't look at much sea floor on any given day because you're limited to how fast you can move across the sea floor and how much you can look at. So if we surveyed 2000 square kilometers in a day, we want to be able to evaluate that in less than 20 years. We want to be able to evaluate that in, you know, in a similar length of time, a day or two. So what we've done is we've shifted toward using what we, what's called a piston core, which, which is a six meter long, 20 foot long tube with about a thousand kilos on a 2,000 pounds.Dan:00:53:37And we lower it through the sea floor, operating it with a winch from a ship. And by putting a navigation beacon on that core, we can track it through the water column in real time. And if we have this high backscatter target on the sea floor, we can lower it to the water column. Once we're about fit and we're within 50 meters, 150 feet of the sea floor, we can see whether we're on target and then we let it go. When the pist- when the, it has a trigger weight on it, you can look this up, how to, how do piston cores work, that the core, lets go and it free falls that last little bit and it penetrates the sea floor. You haul it back to the surface. Now if it had gas hydrate in it, if it has oil in it, if it has gas in it, you can see it right away. when you pull the clear liner out of the core, and there it is, you know, whether or not you've got success, for most cores, there's no visual evidence of hydrocarbons that we sample that core tube, three different samples. One of them, we take a sample into what we call a gas can and seal that. And then we put a couple of hockey puck size chunks of sediment into Ziploc bags and everything goes into the freezer. And you ship that back, from the next port call. And about a month later you get a spreadsheet in your email, that says, oh, guess what you found methane, ethane, propane, butane, and Pentane. And look at this, you've got enough fluorescents that this is a guaranteed oil hit. So, again, you think about the time we map a couple thousand square kilometers a day.Dan:00:55:18We mapped for a month, we'll look the data for a month. We go out and core for a couple of weeks and a month later the Geochemistry starts flowing in. So real quick, multibeam as we've, as we've discussed as a way to get a detailed map of the sea floor, both the shape of it and the hardest roughness, acoustic properties. So any company laying a fiber optic cable across the world's oceans is acquiring multibeam data. Any, municipality that's worried about how deep their ports are and whether there's enough space for the ships to come in, is acquiring multibeam data. The corps of engineers who pays companies to dredge sand in the Mississippi River has to have a before and after multibeam a map, when MH370 went down and needed to be hunted for before they deployed the real high resolution tools. They needed a map of the sea floor and that was a part of the ocean that has never been mapped in detail before.Dan:00:56:23So most of the world's oceans have net have never been mapped in the detail that we're mapping them. We're using the tool to go hunt seeps. But there are all sorts of other uses of, of that multi beam technology. So, what are we looking for when we, when we, when we're looking for seeps, you know, what have, where have people found oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor? What does it look like? Or what are the targets? Well, if the gas burps out of the sea floor, it creates a pockmark. And those are targets, in many parts of the world, the Apennines of Italy, Azerbaijan, there are what we call mud volcanoes, where over pressured mud from deep down in the earth is kind of spewing out gently, slowly and continuously at the earth's surface. And lo and behold, it's bringing up oil and gas along with it. So mud volcanoes are known, oil and gas seeps onshore. Of course we're going to use them, offshore. Any place where we have a fault, you can create fracture permeability that might let oil and gas up. Faults can also seal, but a fault would be a good target, an anticline, a big fold that has a, can have seeps coming out of the crest of, it's similar to the seeps that were discovered early in late 18 hundreds. And in, in the USA, we can have areas where we have oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor, but it's not enough to change the shape of the sea floor. So we get high backscatter but no relief. Those, those are targets. So when we go out and we sample potential seep targets, we don't focus on only one type of target because that might only tell you one thing.Dan:00:58:04So we spread our, our targets around on different target types and we'll spread our targets around an area. Even if we, if we have more targets in one area than another area, we will spread our targets all the way around. Because the one thing that we've learned in decades of seep hunting is we're not as smart as we think we are. Nature always throws a curve ball. And you should, you should not think that you knew, know everything before you go into an area to analyze it because you might, you probably will find something that's, that startles you. And you know, as someone who's been looking at seeps since 1986, I continue to find things that we've never seen before. like our recent projects in the Gulf of Mexico, we found two target types that we've never seen before. The nearest analog on earth, on the surface is called a Pingo, which is when ice forms these really weird mountains up in the Arctic. And the one thing I can guarantee you that's not on the bottom of the world's ocean is an ice mound similar to what's forming the Arctic. But, but it had that shape. So we went and analyzed it and lo and behold, it told us something about the hydrocarbon system.Dan:00:59:12So those are all different types of target types so that the core comes back, we send it to the lab, we get first the very, what call the screening geochemistry, which is a light gases, methane through Pentane. We look at how fluorescent it is, cause that'll tell you whether or not you, you have a chance of of having a big oil hit. And we also look at what's called the chromatogram, which is a gas chromatography. And that tells us between about C15 and C36 C being the carbon length. So the, all your alkanes. And by looking at a Chromatogram, a trained professional will look that and say, oh, that's biodegraded oil. Or, oh, that's really fresh oil cause really fresh oil. All the, alkane peaks get smaller as they get bigger. So it has a very, very distinctive shape. Or they can look at it and they can tell you, you can, you can figure out the depositional environment. You can figure out whether the organic matter came from a lake, lacustrine, or maybe it's marine algal. We can say something about the age of it because flowering plants didn't evolve on earth till about the end of the age of dinosaurs. So at the end of the cretaceous, we got flowering plants. And so flowering plants create a molecule called oleanane. And so if there's no oleanane in the oil, that oil is older than cretaceous. So now we're telling something about a depositional environment.Dan:01:00:39We're saying something about the age, we can say the, the geochemist can say something about the maturity of the oil by looking at the geochemistry data. So all of this information, is now expanding what we know about what's in the subsurface and everything we know about seepage is that it is episodic in time. And it is distributed on earth's surface, not in kind of a random scattered, fashion. You get seepage above above a mud mud volcano, but for the surrounding hundred square kilometers around this mud volcano, we don't find any seep targets. Okay. So, our philosophy is that in order to find, in order to analyze the seats, we have to go find where we've got the highest probability of seepage and leakage. And that's where we target. So if you went out and just dropped a random grid over an area, you have a very, very low chance of hitting a concentrated site of seepage. And so, our hit rate, our success rate is, is high because we're using these biological and chemical indicators of seepage to help us guide where we sample. We have very precisely located sampling instruments this core with this acoustic beacon on it. And so we have, we have a very, very high success rates. And when we get hydrocarbons, we get enough hydrocarbons that we can do all of this advanced geochemistry on it.Duncan:01:02:13That's a good point Dan, even with- even without just doing a random grid of coring, piston coring has been done in the the US Gulf of Mexico for a long time now. And using seismic information, to target it. So like you say, looking for the faults and the anticlines and those type of features and very shallow anomalies on the seismic data. Even even guiding it with that information, typically a, a 5% hit rate might be expected. So you take two or 300 cores you know, you're going to get maybe 5%-10% hit rate, where you can actually look at the oils, and the geochemistry from the samples that you get. Using the multibeam, we were more like a 50 to 60% hit rate. And that's even with like Dan said, we're targeting some features where we know we're not going to find oil. so we could probably do even better than that if we, if we really focused in on finding oil. But obviously we're trying to assemble all the different types of seeps.Dan:01:03:11One of the things that we're asked and that we've heard from managers since we started working in the oil industry is what is this sea floor seep tell me about what's in my reservoir. And there's only, there have been very few, what we, what we call the holy grail studies published where a company has published the geochemistry at the reservoir level and the geochemistry on a seep that they can tie to that reservoir in the Gulf of Mexico. We collected dozens of seeps that can be tied to the same basin where there is known production. So in that Gulf of Mexico Dataset, a company that purchased that data and who had access to the reservoir oils could finally have a sufficient number of correlations that they could answer that question. What is the sea floor seep? Tell me about the reservoir. Because once you're comfortable in the Gulf of Mexico, that that seep is really telling you what's down in your reservoir.Dan:01:04:08Now you go into other parts of the world where you don't know what's in the reservoir before you drill and you find a good, a fresh seep with fresh oil right at the sea floor. Now you're confident that when you go down into the reservoir that you're going to find something, something similar. So let me talk a little bit about other things that you can do with these cores. And I'll start by kind of looking at these mud volcanoes. So this mud volcano, it had over pressured mud at depth. It came up to the surface of the earth and as it came up, it grabbed wall rock on its way up. So by analyzing a mud volcano, if we then go look at, say the microfossils, in all the class in a mud volcano, we can tell you about the age of the rocks that mud volcano came through without ever drilling a well.Dan:01:04:54So you can look at, at the, at the vitrinite reflectance, you can look at the maturity of the, of these wall rocks that are brought to you on the surface. You can look at heavy minerals. And when we go out and we do field geology, you know, you remember you're a geologist has a rock pick they and they go, the geologist goes up to the cliff and, and she or he chips a rock out and they take it back to lab and take a look at it. And that's how they tell something about what's in the outcrop. Well, it's hard to do field geology on the bottom of the ocean using a multibeam map and - acoustically guided core. We can now go and do field work on the, on the ocean floor and expand our knowledge of what's going on in a field area.Duncan:01:05:42So maybe it's worth talking a bit Dan about how we're jointly using these technologies or this group of technologies, at TGS, to put together projects. So the, I think generally the approach has been to look at, basin wide study areas. So we're not just carving off little blocks and doing, one of these, one of these projects over, over a particular block. We'll take on the whole Gulf of Mexico. So we, we broke it up into two. We looked at the Mexico side and the US side. But in total, I think it was nearly a million square kilometers that we covered and, about 1500 cores that I think we took, so we were putting these packages together in different basins all over the world, whether they're in mature basins like the Gulf of Mexico or frontier areas like places we're working in West Africa at the moment. But I think we're, we're looking to put more and more of these projects together. I think the technology applies to lots of different parts of the world. Both this side of the Atlantic and the eastern side of the Atlantic as well.Dan:01:06:44So since 2014, five years, we've mapped, we as in One and TGS have mapped, I believe over 1,250,000 square kilometers. We've acquired over 2000 cores. Oh. We also measure heat flow. We can use - is how the earth is shedding heat. And it's concentrated in some areas in, and you want to know heat flow if you're looking for oil, cause you got to know how much your organic matter has been cooked. So we've, we've collected thousands of cores, at dramatic success rates and we've used them. We've used these projects in areas of known hydrocarbon production, like the shallow water Gulf of Mexico, but we've, we've extended out into areas of completely unknown hydrocarbon production, the deep water Gulf of Mexico, the east coast of Mexico over in the Caribbean. We're looking at northwest Africa, Senegal, The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, and the area, that's a jointly operated AGC. And we're looking at other frontier areas where we can apply this to this technology in concert with traditional tools, multichannel, seismic, gravity and magnetics to help, our clients get a better feel for the hydrocarbon prospectivity. You've got to have the seismic cause you've got to see what the subsurface looks like. But the, the multibeam which leads to seep targets, which leads ultimately to the geochemistry is what then affects the risk going forward into a basin.Duncan:01:08:20That's a good point, Dan. We don't see this as a technology that replaces seismic or gravity or magnetics or anything else, but it's another piece in the puzzle. And it's a very complimentary piece as well.Dan:01:08:31It is. And any areas you could argue that probably the best places to go look are where, your colleagues and other companies have said, oh, there's no oil there. Well, how do you know? Well, we don't think there's oil because we don't think there was a organic matter or we don't think that it was cooked enough. Well, you don't know until you go there and you find, so if you found one seep in that field area that had live oil and gas in it, you would know that that premise was incorrect. And now you have a competitive edge, you have knowledge that others don't and that can, that can affect your exploration, strategy in your portfolio. we haven't talked about cost. Multi beam is arguably one of the least expensive tools per square kilometer in the geophysical toolkit. Just because we don't need chase boats. We're not towing the streamer, we're going 10 knots. We're covering a couple of thousand square kilometers a day. So it's, it's, it's a tool that's useful in frontier exploration. It is complimentary to seismic, and it's a tool that, that you can use to guide where you want to spend money and how much money if you, if we survey a huge area and let's say half of it has no evidence of oil and gas and half of it has excellent hydrocarbon seeps, both oil and gas. I would argue that as a company you might want to spend less money on the first and more money on the second. You migh

In the second episode of Beneath the Subsurface we pick back up with a deep dive into onshore seismic technology in unconventional plays. Wayne Millice, Mike Perz, and Jason Kegel dig through seismic technologies, pre-stack seismic attributes, acquisition developments, and our predictions for the future of seismic and the unconventional realm. Erica Conedera, your host, new to the onshore seismic world, explores the challenges and sometimes over-hyped solutions with onshore acquisition and processing with our guests. TABLE OF CONTENTS0:00 - Intro1:51 - Onshore TGS History2:35 - Acquiring Onshore Data5:00 - The Migrated Stack7:28 - Resolution: The Bug Bear of Processing8:38 - Pre-stack Migration9:55 - Pre-stack Attributes; The Good and the Bad12:05 - Pre-stack: The Secret Sauce13:48 - Noise, Noise, Noise15:38 - The Future of Unconventionals; ARLAS, AI, and ML18:35 - Joint Study with FracGeo: Pre-stack Depth Migration20:39 - Analytic Ready LAS (ARLAS) and velocity Models24:33 - Acquisition Technology; Surface and Subsurface27:10 - Azimuthal Sampling - AVO and Velocity Inversion28:22 - The Q Problem (Anelastic Attenuation)30:08 - Frequency Problems35:21 - Interaction with Acquisition and Processing37:42 - The Future of Seismic in Unconventionals41:24 - ConclusionEXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODE:Advances with Land Seismic for Characterizing Reservoirs Workshop with Christof Stork, Mike Perz, Bruce Hootman, Rodney JohnstonARLAS and tgs.ai Subsurface Intelligence A Candid Look at the Value of Pre-Stack Depth Migration for Unconventionals with Mariana Roche Davies at Geophysical Society of Houston TGS Data LibraryEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera: 00:12 Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that investigates the intersection of geoscience and technology. In our second episode, we'll deep dive into seismic technologies, pre-stack seismic attributes, acquisition developments, and our predictions for the future of seismic and the unconventional realm. From the software development department here at TGS. I'm Erica Conedera, your host and complete newcomer to the world of onshore seismic. I hope you'll find our discussion today as informative and enjoyable as I did.Erica:00:45Um, so let's start with introductions to my left.Jason Kegel00:49Yeah. My name is Jason Kegel. I've been with TGS for six years. I'm a geologist. I've worked on almost every one of the onshore US seismic programs that we have.Erica:00:59Awesome.Wayne Millice:01:00I'm Wayne Millice. I'm the gray beard of the group. I've been with TGS only about 11 years, but are, sorry, eight years. But I've been in the business about 35 years I'm the VP of onshore multiclient. And I'm here to hopefully teach some people about the value of seismic in our business.Mike Perz:01:19I'm Mike Perz. I am the director of technology and the onshore group. So I'm responsible for looking after all matters technical in support that group. And I'm not quite as gray bearded as the gentleman sitting to my right, but I have been in the industry for about 25 years. So I'm kind of blondish with whisps of gray, I guess you'd say. (Laughter) No spring chicken.Erica:01:42Awesome. So let's kick off the discussion for today. If you will Wayne by giving us a brief description of TGS' involvement in onshore.Wayne:01:51Sure. TGS was primarily an onshore-offshore company. Up until about 2011 and 2011, we started the onshore business, January I believe, if I remember correctly. And that's how long I've been here, since January, 2011. In 2012, we acquired a company called Arcis in Canada that gave us an instant library of about 15,000 square kilometers in the western Canadian sedimentary basin. And in 2012 we started our first project in the US. And, we have you a since grown the library from the initial 15,000 square kilometers or so until about a 34,000 square kilometer based our database based in the US and Canada. So it's been a, it's been a fun run and it's going well.Erica:02:35Awesome. So Mike, can you take it over for seismic technology? What do we do with the data once we get it?Mike:02:44Sure. So the first thing that happens is that data has to be processed and I always like to call a seismic processing the Rodney Dangerfield of the E&P chain. And the reason I say that is as you might predict, it gets very little respect, certainly in terms of the almighty buck and the price, the price point'sWayne:03:04Very little budget.Mike:03:05Yeah, very, very little budget. And it's kind of ironic because as Wayne and I have discussed a lot, it's the seismic processing step where we have maximal client engagement usually during the course of a multi client project and reputations are won and lost on the processing. But again, very little dollar value flows with it. I don't fully understand why the valuation isn't higher, but it's a problem that I certainly can't fix. So we kind of, in a way, we try to almost leverage that fact that it's a fairly, fairly cheap technology and we take it very seriously at TGS. So with that preamble about why it isn't the most highly valued element of the, of the chain, let's talk about some of the key outputs from processing. So the thing called the migrated stack is probably the single most important processed attribute in an unconventional play in say, offshore environments like the Gulf of Mexico seismic technology is no one buys CEO's of a big oil companies as an important de-risking tool for say sub salt plays the, in the case of unconventionals, I would not say that seismic has that same kind of universal traction whereby everybody in the c suites on down know about seismic. Nevertheless, it is gaining a lot of momentum.Erica:04:34And when you say unconventionals, can you elaborate on that?Mike:04:38Yeah, I'm talking actually we're all going to be restricting the scope of this discussion to the shale plays onshore shale plays. In a, well North America primarily, primarilyWayne:04:50Our primary focus on probably the Permian and the scoop and stack too. But there are several, several basins in the, in the US market that you could consider unconventional.Erica:04:58Okay.Mike:05:00Right? Yeah. So back to this business of the migrated stack, it is well accepted that it's a very useful thing in unconventional, development. And the primary reason for that is it helps in a delineating landing zones for the lateral wells and also geosteering and hazard avoidance. And I don't know, Jason, if you wanted to expand on a geological perspective of why those things are so important in the, in the depth domain. With seismic, you can start really understanding how to land your wells and doing geosteering in the unconventional world. That's one of the most important things that people are doing right now with their seismic.Jason:05:41Geosteering in particular and finding these landing zones has been important because these reservoirs are, we're looking for is the conventional reservoirs can be anywhere from 10 to 50 feet, which is a lot of times right around the [Clears throat]. The area of seismic resolution, what we found to be more difficult is sort of calibrating everything together. So when we have the data, so calibrating the well logs, the tops, some of the understanding the differences in the different tool parameters your measured while drilling tool parameters versus your after drilling parameters and how that relates back to a depth calibration has been very important in the seismic industry. bringing all those things together to geosteer real-time to actually find these landing zones has been something that a lot of different softwares have attempted to do. And bring this into a multi-client aspect where the operator can instantly get a depth to calibrate and volume that they can geosteer on or look at their regional area of interest onshore has been very different than offshore seismic, which has traditionally had that depth migrated volume to begin with.Wayne:06:53I can expand on one thing that Jason said too when we're talking about regional views on the petroleum systems. So our TGS has a strategy to date has been to get assets that are contiguous within these, with these within these basins so you can understand the regional view of it or of an oil producing basin or hydrocarbon producing basin. So it's important in our opinion that we get a large regional view. That's why you'll see you somewhere databases online. When you look at our, when you look at our projects, they're very contiguous and very focused on one area.Mike:07:28Yeah. Jason gave a nice description of of why we might want to use migrant stacks, for geosteering. And he touched on something important. You brought up resolution and you talked about thin beds on the order of 10 feet to 50 feet. And one of the real bug bears are an unfortunate reality in the seismic processing world is the fact that we really cannot dive down to smaller resolutions than, than those beds. In fact, we're probably operating in, in the order of like, wavelengths of hundreds of feet. So resolving those beds is pretty tricky. We can detect them sometimes but not resolve them and we're always being pushed on the processing side to do a better job. And it's disappointing because all, sometimes all the acquisition equipment in the world isn't gonna help you through that. Mother Nature is cruel in a way and she chews up the high frequencies and there really hasn't been a breakthrough in seismic processing technology to allow us to bash through that, that limitation. So resolution is an ongoing issue and we're always squeezed by it in the unconventional context in the, especially for this geosteering. So that's worth noting. And one other quick thing, Jason mentioned pre-stack depth migration and that's an important new technology in unconventionals. Technology has been around forever for 20-25 years in the Gulf of Mexico, but it's really gaining ground in unconventionals and in in fact, TGS, shameless plug for a talk. TGS is going to be hosting a talk in early June, June 6th. Mariana Roche Davies is going to talk about pre stack depth migration and why it's valuable in unconventional plays.Wayne:09:07We should be plugging a lots of things here, shouldn't we all sorts of-all sorts of shamelessMike:09:11shamelessly plug. (Laughter)Mike:09:13So, so if, if I could move away from the migrated stack, I just want to talk about the second big thing that seismic data is used for on the and the processing side. And that's the, the pre-stack data are used for generating attributes and we sometimes call this AVO analysis or Pre-stack and conversion. And the interesting thing here is that while the migrated stack has quite a lot of acceptance as a, as a really good de-risking tool for the reasons we mentioned, there is less universal acceptance o- the, these pre stack derived seismic attributes.Mike:09:55Some I can think of one really technically astute interpreter from a Permian player who's very successful and they don't touch the pre-stack attributes because there are too contaminated by noise. On the other hand, you go to the SEG or URTeC and all that, there's tons of talks on using these pre-stack attributes. So it depends on who you talk to. Some people use them, some people don't. My hope is that they're going to be used more and more down the road. We're kind of pinning a lot of our own technical direction on that, on that premise.Jason:10:22No pre-stack attributes have always sort of been the holy grail for, for people to find their, find their sweet spots. Right. I mean, looking at AVO in context, I mean that's the, the number one thing, right? And people are always absolutely to define their bright spot, right? And there's been tons of wells drilled just on that. But then to bring in rock mechanics and what they're doing with, with more pre-stack attributes in rock Brittleness and actually trying to look at Poisson's ratio and Young's modulus. When we start to look at those, we start to actually correlate the actual rock properties to what we're getting from our are sound frequencies. The more we can, we can do that and the better we can actually accomplish that is in the academic world has always been the, the, the driver. Right? And you can't talk to hardly any anybody that's teaching geophysics or rock mechanics or geology nowadays that doesn't want to talk about how to correlate your, your wells to your seismic. And it all comes down to understanding densities and shear wave and you're, you're compressed wave wireline tools and bringing that back to the, to the seismic world. unfortunately Mike is correct in saying that a lot of operators in these unconventional zones don't necessarily don't necessarily use it. They'll use it on their, on their own. They'll use a proprietorially, they'll use their own individual softwares to do that. But in a multi client aspect, it hasn't really caught as much traction as is, I think it will. And I think one of the big things that might push that is, regional is that, that's something you guys think the idea to have more regional studies of pre-stack attributes in pre stack, volumes.Mike:12:05Yeah, I think, I think that's a good idea. I mean what one of the nice things with our huge well database at TGS as we can, we can leverage that massive information source into these regional studies. And one thing I forgot to mention was that this pre-stack conversion or attribute business, it does very well to have a lot of well control and we've got lots of that here. So that would, that would certainly help garner interest. One of the big problems, I think that that detracts from acceptance is just that there are not kind of generic workflows for what to do with the pre-stack attributes. Once you, once you have them, it's quite easy to, stare down a migrated stack and figure out, I steer here, I land here.Mike:12:49That's it. You know that that protocol is easy to understand. What do you do with all these attributes? And different companies have their own secret sauce for that and sometimes they're quite tightly guarded about what they, what they do. So I think that may change in the future. We hope it does.Erica:13:02Why do you think it might change?Mike:13:04I just, I just think it will behoove everybody to leverage the seismic more everybody would win from, from thatErica:13:12To be more transparent with their methodologies or?Mike:13:16Possibly, I mean I think as as technologies emerge that-Wayne:13:19Or we push or we push the methodology, for instance, we have the data points internally that we need to start pushing those to those new solutions so to speak or so push them out and then our customers will create their own secret sauce from hopefully some of our solutions that we're aware of or a team.Mike:13:34And even as they push their secret sauce as the years tick away, typically people give up, they cough up their secret sauce to make a bad extended, a lousy metaphor. But they tend to divulge it and public domain and we all benefit from it.Wayne:13:46It's another paper at URTeC.Mike:13:48Exactly. So yeah, I guess this seismic technology thing is my bailiwick. That's why I'm doing a lot of the talking here that I was going to move on now to future future looking at data processing first of all and take a stab at what what I think are important technologies of the future. One is an old thing, it's noise, noise, noise, getting rid of noise, especially in places like the Permian. The Permian is so nasty as regards seismic soundings. You've got these horrible near surface layers, of anhydrites and salts interspersed and then you get these, these fills zones where the salt collapses and it, it kind of bedevil's all your seismic tools in many ways. And so that's why that one operator I was telling you about is reluctant to look at at their pre stack data for fear of the noise, screwing up their analysis. So we've got to do a better job at noise. We've got to do a better job at eliminating multiple energy. Full wave form inversion is a fairly well established technology offshore. We need to leverage that knowledge and get it going. Working better onshore for us, gets a nice velocity models among other things. Those are good for feeding this pre-stack depth migration technology.Erica:15:02What are the challenges of leveraging that?Mike:15:04Good question. The data are noisier on land typically. And so that isn't totally compatible with the full waveform inversion model toErica:15:13So you have to adapt the model.Mike:15:14Adapted, got adapted to handle topography, things like that. And there are people are, people are doing that. We were certainly very active in that, in that space at TGS. Some of our competitors are as well. But again, I don't think there was this sort of routine commercial use at this point. I mean I know there's not just yet, but we're getting there. So yeah, those, those are kind of the big, the big things.Mike:15:36Now the last thing I was going to ramble on about a bit was taking a future look at interpretation. So where would interpretation be going for for unconventionals? Cause I mean, Jason, check me if I'm wrong, it's really a different beast than conventional plays where interpreters have, there there special ways to stare down data and pick sweet spots and bright spots. This is not that, that same thing. I and I could be off base here. I'm just prognosticating. I think that, one important thing in the future we'll be using machine learning and at TGS we could leverage our data and analytics group for this stuff and basically use machine learning to tease out complicated relationships between seismic attributes and production and completion data points with the view towards being able to predict from the attributes alone where the next landing zone should be the next well.Erica:16:32It's shameless plug. Our first episode was all about machine learning and AI. So please check it out if you haven't already.Wayne:16:38on there. So there're interesting conversations that our AI summit to sort of speak about who would be picking the next location. Would it be AI being confirmed by a human or human confirming AI. So there was a, that was pretty interesting discussion of that, that ti's a good point to bring up.Mike:16:57Yeah, for sure.Jason:16:57And when it comes to interpretation in particular with seismic and how machine learning can help having all of that data readily available in the cloud is, or the first step, right? So when it comes to machine learning, it's just a matter of the more data you have the in the, in the machine, the better you're going to have it coming out. But that's everything that TGS does have, right? The well data start including tops, production completion techniques, different attributes for seismic. Then you actually get the machines starting to actually tell you where your reservoirs are going to have sort of different permeabilities, right? If you could start understanding where these different permeabilities come in and these shales, very slight variations can lead to huge benefits in production. So that's a, that's a very big thing that we would love to be able to do, but it's not quite there yet.Mike:17:48Yeah, I mean I think you've raised a good point. We feel like we have all the ducks in a row here at TGS and it's, it's interesting because there- others before us have played around with multivariate analysis too to try to fit these attributes to things like production. They don't have the breadth of data that we have at TGS and they don't have as ready access to a lot of these things. So we're, we're poised to do some, some pretty cool stuff. So watch this space as they say. The only other thing I was going to say on on future looking interpretation wise, and I again I - disclaimers cause I could be wrong, but I believe that that combining seismic with geomechanical modeling software, may be an important thing to that end. And again, what is this our third shameless plug?Wayne:18:32Well we keep doing it because that's what we're here for. (Laughter)Mike:18:35So we're undertaking a joint study with FracGeo, a Geo mechanical modeling software and Services Company in the Permian Basin on our west Kermit Dataset in the Delaware. And we're going to be reporting back on that soon. But basically we're just, we're taking our seismic data and post-stack attributes like curvature to predict fault locations and that becomes feedstock for their Geo mechanical modeling stuff. And also the stuff you brought up, Jason Poisson's ratio and all the things we glean from inversions, those will go into their geomechanical modeling process as well. So that you know, hopefully that's a new sector in which seismic can be used.Erica:19:11We realized that we missed something, We need to circle back around to the topic related to pre-stack depth migration gentlemen.Mike:19:20Yeah. Pre-Stack definite migration in unconventionals. We kind of give it short shrift. I just wanted to add a few more more things. I had mentioned that it's a very established technology pre-stacked depth migration in offshore plays, Gulf of Mexico and such, and it's only been over the last couple of years that operators are using pre-stack depth migration a lot for unconventionals.Mike:19:40It's interesting to note you don't get the jaw dropping improvements on the migrated stacks that you do in the Gulf of Mexico because the data are not nearly as structured. Right, Jason?Jason:19:50Right, in most areas when people say railroad tracks, they're not kidding.Mike:19:54Yeah, yeah. So, so you don't get these amazing glossy brochure image improvements on the stocks, but the, the benefits come in subtler but still important ways. For example, you get natural output and in depth is one, one really important thing and another thing you get better fault definition after pre-stack depth migration. Sometimes I think the real prize can be the actual velocity model itself. One really important difference in velocity model building for pre-stack depth migration in the unconventional onshore case compared to offshore is that in the former case, in the onshore case, we've got so much more well data to constrain or lock down our velocity models, especially at TGS with our massive well database.Mike:20:39And so that's, that's a really, really good thing. So that's why I feel quite confident at the end of the day the velocity models are so responsibly constructed that you really can trust those depths and you get this natural depth conversion after depth migration that's as good or better than what an interpreter would do using his favorite or her favorite method for for depth converting time process data and on that well topic are TGS so-called ARLAS synthetic, well construction using machine learning. That's really gonna help our depth model building. We've yet to exploit it, but we're going to basically be able to get way more sonic wells through this ARLAS process to constrain interval velocitiesJason:21:24And that's, that's a big benefit in the shallow, we start looking at the, the shallower area for drilling hazards and drilling risk. we also start looking at that for water, for water. So in the Delaware, it's a big issue, not only just produced water and injected water and saltwater disposal, but making sure that the, the drinking water in the aquifer water that's usually in the shallower intervals is safe. So it's an environmental concern that we look into having that velocity model better structured in the upper sections that we normally don't look too much into and we're looking at exploration per se onshore, helps quite a bit with that, both environmental and with, with hazard mitigation.Mike:22:05And the ARLAS construction will help that process, right?Jason:22:10Oh, absolutely. The ARLAS dataset- any type of velocity model that can improve on the, the prior velocity model is of big concern. So you can get back to geosteering. Anything that helps that velocity model. A lot of times when they are geosteering, they'll have realtime velocity model building as the mud loggers are providing new information. They cross different faults, they notice different things that can instantly update the velocity model they're using to help steer that well. So it just goes back to the fact that having the best velocity model up front is going to help the, the final piece of the puzzle, which is landing that well on the, the zone where you can get the most oil or gas out of it.Jason:22:53And that's been shown there. There's been a bunch of studies that have shown this, but there was one in the Balkan a few years ago that showed that using 3D depth seismic helped reduce their costs with 75% just by having their geosteerers use seismic. So that's you know, it's a known value for, for the, the seismic industry and the oil and gas industry to, to geosteer with depth migrated volumes. And it's nice to see that and the multiclient aspect that starting to really catch hold.Mike:23:26Absolutely. And let's just push it onto those pre-stack attributes.Jason:23:29No, I know, we just need it in the attributes.Erica:23:33Okay.Jason:23:34Particularly with faults. All right, so you're talking about some of the coherence studies with the post-stack, but when we can take some of that pre-stack ideas about Brittleness and Poisson's and Young's modelists and looking at those pre-stacks, bring it to the post-stack to where we can start identifying the fault structures and how those faults work. If you're interpreting those faults on your seismic before you go into your completion plan, then you have a much better idea of how you can track that well horizontally. So these wells nowadays, are a mile two miles long, some cases, I mean there, there they go for quite a ways going over some of these faults that have 20 feet to 50 feet to throw can greatly throw off where you're steering that well. So any type of better velocity model, will help you guide that. And a lot of times these faults, they're under seismic resolution. Again, so any type of fault or any kind of deviation that you can see in the seismic or with that velocity model is going to help you with your, your drilling plan and your completion plan.Erica:24:33Okay, so to pivot a little bit; acquisition technology?Wayne:24:36Well, I can chat a little bit about that. So I was in the contractor community for many, many years and back in the day we are pretty happy with, if you take it up from a spatial sampling standpoint, we were pretty happy at the end of the day when we were getting 100,000, 200,000 traces per square mile.Mike:24:56How long ago was it? How long have you been? 55Wayne:24:58Long time, yeahMike:24:59when did you enter the industry? 65 years?Wayne:24:59At least 65 years. Yeah, (Laughter)Wayne:25:04I was still microfilming, right? (Laughter)Erica:25:04Sick burnWayne:25:04I've been getting- yeah, I get that usually from him, so that's okay. But now, the contractor community has made significant investments in equipment and we're actually acquiring datasets that are, millions have millions of traces per square mile, not just 1 million, but millions of traces per square mile. Now they've been doing this quite a bit in the, Middle Eastern markets because of the terrain. The train's fairly simplistic over there. So the ability to put several thousand source points in one square mile or one square kilometer or whichever you choose to measure by Canadian or US, has- is quite simple. Whereas in the US, or the North American market per se, there is a lot more, what do we call, obstructions and they come from several people from several things. Mostly people I didn't slip there. That was a purposeful-Mike:25:58Freudian slip.Wayne:25:58Freudian slip yeah, But, so now that technology that high trace density wide azithmuth fully azimuthly sampled, that technology or that product is now available in the North American market. So, and it's getting more prevalent. We're starting to see a new acquisition techniques mostly with surface source because you're still limited in what you can do. Subsurface source, for instance, a dynamite, right. But with a vibroseis or any or other surface sources, you're able to acquire data probably for about the same amount of money. It was, like I said, I was getting 250,000 per square mile in 1996 and I'm getting millions for the same number today. Right. So it's a, they've seen significantly increased their their traits count, unfortunately haven't increased their profitability so that that's still a problem in the industry for the most part. But they're working on that. Hopefully at some point we can hopefully at some point we can, (Laughter) we can, get to a 10 million traces per squad or mildly because, go ahead.Mike:27:10I was going to say, you brought up the azimuthal sampling and that, that reminds me, I, I've been conspicuous by my silence on azimuthal AVO and velocity inversion techniques and these techniques are, are in use today using surface seismic to help characterize horizontal stress anisotropy and the presence of fractures and I kind of on purpose didn't get into it too much. I'm bringing it up now because I know that some, some of the, some of the listeners are probably wondering why we're not talking about it, that these things can be, can be useful and unconventional plays. But I'm avoiding too much mentioned because there's somewhat controversial and they have a, in my opinion, limited realm of applicability when they work, they work very well, but they have been oversold in over-hyped. So like I could, I felt I had to, I had to go there cause you brought up azimuthal. I'm going to turn you back to your, to your, your comments though.Wayne:28:01So as Mike, as Mike mentioned earlier, denser is better, but, as we've seen and we've tested and we've done all kinds of things in the field that mother nature has different ideas no matter how dense, we shoot these things. Once we drive that sound signal into of the ground, we don't know what's going to happen to it at the end of the day. So,Mike:28:22Yeah, for, for example, Q, I like to say Q can rear its ugly head Q mean is my proxy for anelastic attenuation. And I don't care how, how many sources and receivers you deploy, you can deploy them every, every fraction of an inch and you're not, you're not gonna change the fact that you lose your high temporal frequencies. And so that you know that that's a real problem. And then certain brands of noise are really well suited to being crushed or eradicated through dense spatial sampling. So that's wonderful. But some things like random noise, sorry, like, like really, really tricky linear noise. that's heavily aliased. If it's complicated enough, then you might need really, really fine sampling to deal with it. And that's still kind of a research topic. Random noises, easier, random noise. The denser, the denser it is, the more you'll, you'll beat down the random noise. No quibbles about it..Erica:29:12Maybe this is overly simplistic, but what causes Q, where does that come from?Mike:29:18Oh no, that's, that's a good question. It basically, every time the earth vibrates because a seismic wave is passing through it, the vibration has some loss to heat. And so it's not a pure elastic phenomenon. There's an energy bleed off and that, that basically that, that, that effect winds up, it's been, it's fairly, fairly straight forward and demonstrate that that kills the high frequencies of your seismic waves.Erica:29:45Okay.*Mike:29:46So yeahErica:29:48If it's straight forward, then what-Wayne:29:50It's straight forward for Mike (Laughter)Mike:29:53It's straight forward from the viewpoint of the textbooks. I not going to derive that in real time, are you kidding me? No. My mind is mush over the years as I become more managerial and sales focused. So, but it's, it's well appreciated. It's well established in the community.Jason:30:08So how can new acquisition technologies help to mitigate some of those issues? Like are there other things on the horizon that there we're doing or you think that might, that might be out there to increase the frequency spectrum both low and high?Mike:30:20I, well maybe, let me return to the, the noise thing that first before I forget to reiterate, some of the spatial sampling might help to, to kill coherent noise that's alias. If you get a sample, fine enough to remove the alias. So that's, that's a good thing. But back back now to acquisition and the spectrum, the temporal frequency spectrum. Well on the high end with this Q effect or anelastic attenuation, honestly I don't think all the acquisition in the world is going to help you. If we need, we need to break through in other ways. Then there are some ideas about sparse spike deconvolution that had been around for a while. Maybe those will, those will improve over the years. On the low frequency side we are doing tangible things in the field. I don't know, Wayne, if you wanted to speak to them on the source and receiver side or,Wayne:31:11Sure. We're starting to do some, some experimenting, I think it's actually become more than experiment. We're actually acquiring projects with what we call either low frequency or low dwell sweeps, so we're starting in a real low frequencies and moving, moving slowly through the lower frequencies and then ramping up through the high frequency. So we're driving that spectrum a little bit wider so to speak. Right. So there's a lot of analytics going on on whether that works or not right now. Like you can comment from the processing side, but-Mike:31:40well it's interesting. Yeah.Wayne:31:42The equipment's there to do it as always. There's always been the equipment to do all this neat stuff, but stuff we create the data. Three C's a good example. We create three component data, but a lot of times we only use the p wave and not the transverse and the inver- and the, the, the, the three. So we don't use the three, we just use two and we create these volumes, but we got other stuff that sits on the shelf. But now we're starting to utilize some of these, low frequency start points, so to speak with a vibrators.Mike:32:09Yeah. Right. And same ditto on the receiver side, right?Wayne:32:11Yep. Yeah. Oh yeah. We're trying to, trying to go with the five hertz damp and phones instead of 10 hertz. We're trying all these things, but have we gotten there and put it into production mode yet? I think we're on the cusp.Mike:32:23Well, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because a lot of clients are very interested in these technologies and there's definitely theoretical promise and we've demonstrated on synthetics that, you know, you can get good results by, by caring a lot about the low end. And we ran it a fascinating test that hopefully we're going to publish at an upcoming SEG workshop. Shameless plug number five, right?Wayne:32:42Four or five?Mike:32:44Five, six, I can't remember. So, so I'm a co organizer. Christof Stork is, is the chief organizer and along with Bruce Hootman and Rodney Johnston and myself work organizing this SEG workshop on land processing and acquisition. And we're gonna, we're gonna dive into some of these, some of these, some of these topics. And one of the things we're talking about is, are we actually really enjoying the benefits of this low frequency attention that we're, you know, that we're foisting on the soundings in the field. Are those low frequencies coming out at the end of the day after all our inversion products? And Are we really reaping the benefits? It's not clear. We ran an interesting internal tests where we, we acquired data with the low low hertz or low frequency phones and I think we had low dwell sweeps. We certainly had have lots of energy on the source side, on the low end and after preliminary processing the result, cause we had a control experiment where we didn't do all this low frequency attention and the preliminary processing showed that that when you were really attentive in the field to these low frequencies, you got a better answer. But guess what? After we got to final processing and we're able to use a second pass of something called deconvolution to really widen the spectrum, we found very little difference between the conventional acquisition mode and the and the the low frequency effort. This is at odds with some of the, some of the literature, and I'm not disputing other people's findings, but there might be a subtle effect with an area dependency to it. We'll see.Wayne:34:13But is a subtle effect enough to justify asking one of our contractors to go spend x number of dollars on equipment to upgrade their crews, right? Or it's,Mike:34:24I know it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough question. Tough question. You know, I guess if price points on the cruise side drop enough, sure it's Gravy, why not? But if not it might not be worth it. You might spend your money on other other things. I'm not sure.Jason:34:35Was it not the low frequencies that help you differentiate liquids in, in some of the inversions that you do further down the road? Is that the, that's the the biggest benefit, right?Mike:34:47That's I believe, I believe it's very helpful. The low frequencies certainly helped to, to lock down the low frequency model for the inversion they give you support. Where are you, at low frequencies, where you don't typically have such support with conventional surface seismic and, and I'm not an expert in inversion, but my understanding is some of the fluid effects do tend to show themselves better when you've got the right answer for the low frequency model. And that's facilitated by having some of these low frequency acquisition techniques in play.Jason:35:21You had mentioned earlier how the seismic technology and processing is the sort of the, the biggest area where we get interaction with our clients. Right. And it seems to be undervalued in that sense with acquisition. Is that a way we can of push that to, to fill that gap so we have that interaction and on both sides?Mike:35:44So interaction on the acquisition side?Jason:35:46Yeah.Mike:35:46Well it's a good question. I mean, my understanding is there's typically not a ton of engagement at the field acquisition stage yet. There's obviously some,Wayne:35:54Actually I would say yeah, there certainly is our one, our pre funders, write a check, they want to have some, implement some, some say so to speak what's going on. But mostly once we've made an agreement, on parameters, all that stuff is pretty much on us to deliver what we said we'd deliver. So, but we do where we really interact with our customers, we help them, we take problems off their plate so to speak, by taking on the acquisition piece, the acquisition piece is the most labor intensive, right. And, but where we really start to get in with our customers and when we, after we get the data, we've done the field acquisition, we interact with our customers from the processing side a lot. So it's important to us that like we said processing's a small piece of our AFE, but it's the most important because that's what we deliver, and that's what they see. Right. So, the, the nobody, no, I always say this to my guys to say nobody remembers the farmer that shot at you. Nobody remembers the vibrator they got stuck in the field, but they always remember if you're AVO volume was crap when they delivered it. Right. So they always remember that. But none of us other than other stuff that went on the field ever matters when they're looking at and looking at data on that workstation. Right? Yeah.Mike:37:07So this, the poor sister in the E&P chain is the processing somehow is, it seems to continually be this, this critical, critical engagement point for, for the client. I mean, I guess the client, they don't, they don't like having to deal with permitting and stuff.Wayne & Mike:37:29No, they only pay - like you guys - take the load off.Wayne:37:31We're taking that load off them. That's a big load. Trust me.Erica:37:34So jumping ahead, what do you predict for the future of seismic in the unconventional space?Mike:37:42Well, I think I state this without proof of course, but I believe that there's going to be an increased use of seismic, including outside-Wayne:37:51Well, the, the data that there's a lot of, there's a lot of data that's been acquired in the US and Canada for that matter. But a lot of it's getting dated, right? So when we're talking about, just like denser is better. We mentioned that earlier, right? Denser is better. So we're finding that a lot of these processing techniques that, Mike has been mentioning earlier, don't apply very well to older data data sets that don't have high resolution and aren't sampled very well. So we're finding, probably a lot of these older servers, you're going to get over it or getting acquired again, right? So that's, that's one marketplace. But as the unconventional space goes on, I think you're going to find, find it. A lot of these, like I said, a lot of these older datasets and a lot of the, are you going to make some discoveries within these data as the processing techniques get better and as we use the attributes better and all those things.Mike:38:42Yeah, 100% yeah. And I was going to say, I believe from my conviction that there'll be an increased use of seismic for that to reach for that to actually come into play. I think that we need to, as an industry use these pre-stack attributes that Wayne just mentioned more and more. And we also, I believe need to start using 3C converted wave data more. We didn't get into converted wave data at all on this Chit Chat.Wayne:39:06That's another, maybe that's another podcast.Mike:39:08It's - it could, in of its own, but you know, there, there's some great promise with that technology, like so many technologies, it's been oversold and over hyped to some degree. But there's some really interesting case studies in western Canada that show that it's got great potential. We had awesome converted wave soundings.Wayne:39:24Yeah.Mike:39:24On the loyal survey. Yeah. And that's so, so that might help to propel the increased use of seismic as well as increased use of these attributes. So that's, that's what I think is going to, it's going to happen.Jason:39:35One other thing, I really think that seismic is going to help in completion engineering. I'm going, I think that's sort of where it's going to now and where it's sort of, we've seen that happen with some of the pre-stack attributes and just to use seismic first off and understanding exactly where to perf and exactly where to make your completion intervals and where you're going to get the best production, on top of all the regional work you do to, to start out.Wayne:39:58And that'll impact the funding cost per barrel for our customers. So that's going to, we hope that that's the, again, the value of seismic, right? So how's that going to drive our business? How it's going to drive our customer's business at the end of the day.Mike:40:11Yeah, absolutely. And I mean one fundamental thing I forgot to mention, and Jason, you check me if I'm wrong, but I think what's happening in the unconventional spaces that there's a a slowly growing recognition that's actually probably accelerating right now. That to the tune that hey, we can't just go factory production style with completing all of our acreages there's enough geological heterogeneity that the production in this set of laterals here from this pad is kind of different than over here or even among the laterals in a pad. Why is this one so different? Parent Child Interactions, let's understand them better and all these burning questions, they're demanding some sort of better gaze into the subsurface and that is seismic.Jason:40:53That is seismic and that's where I think that's where you're absolutely right. That's where the future is driving it. If you can understand the parent child relationships between your multi well pads and pads next to you and how you're going to complete the entire basin on a stacked play basis, using seismic is going to be your, one of your only real tools to help out. And the better you have the air velocity models hammered down, the better you have your pre-stack attributes that can be involved in that study, the better off we are and I think we're well on our way.Erica:41:24Awesome. Well, thank you gentlemen for being here for our second episode. This was a really, educational discussion for me as someone who is not from a seismic background. And I'm sure I've heard listeners as well.Mike:41:37Been our pleasure, Erica. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jason:41:39Thanks Erica.Wayne:41:40Yup. Good for-Thanks for dragging us all in here.

Find us online at: AdventNYC.orgEmail us at: Podcast@AdventNYC.orgTalk with us at: Advent Sermons & Conversations on FacebookCome to a service Sunday morning 9am and 11am in English and 12:30pm in Spanish at 93rd and Broadway.Reading for this Week:First Reading2 Kings 4:42-4442A man came from Baal-shalishah, bringing food from the first fruits to [Elisha,] the man of God: twenty loaves of barley and fresh ears of grain in his sack. Elisha said, “Give it to the people and let them eat.” 43But his servant said, “How can I set this before a hundred people?” So he repeated, “Give it to the people and let them eat, for thus says the Lord, ‘They shall eat and have some left.’ ” 44He set it before them, they ate, and had some left, according to the word of the Lord.PsalmPsalm 145:10-1810All your works shall praise | you, O Lord,  and your faithful | ones shall bless you. 11They shall tell of the glory | of your kingdom  and speak | of your power, 12that all people may know | of your power  and the glorious splendor | of your kingdom. 13Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom; your dominion endures through- | out all ages.  You, Lord, are faithful in all your words, and loving in | all your works. R 14The Lord upholds all | those who fall  and lifts up those who | are bowed down. 15The eyes of all wait upon | you, O Lord,  and you give them their food | in due season. 16You open | wide your hand  and satisfy the desire of every | living thing. 17You are righteous in | all your ways  and loving in | all your works. 18You are near to all who | call upon you,  to all who call up- | on you faithfully. RSecond ReadingEphesians 3:14-2114For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name. 16I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, 17and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. 18I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.  20Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.GospelJohn 6:1-211Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, also called the Sea of Tiberias. 2A large crowd kept following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing for the sick. 3Jesus went up the mountain and sat down there with his disciples. 4Now the Passover, the festival of the Jews, was near. 5When he looked up and saw a large crowd coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread for these people to eat?” 6He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, “Six months’ wages would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little.” 8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him, 9“There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish. But what are they among so many people?” 10Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” Now there was a great deal of grass in the place; so they sat down, about five thousand in all. 11Then Jesus took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted. 12When they were satisfied, he told his disciples, “Gather up the fragments left over, so that nothing may be lost.” 13So they gathered them up, and from the fragments of the five barley loaves, left by those who had eaten, they filled twelve baskets. 14When the people saw the sign that he had done, they began to say, “This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world.”  15When Jesus realized that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain by himself.  16When evening came, his disciples went down to the sea, 17got into a boat, and started across the sea to Capernaum. It was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18The sea became rough because a strong wind was blowing. 19When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21Then they wanted to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the land toward which they were going.

THE MIRACLE OF MULTIPLICATION 09.25.16 - In God We Trust Series Would It Be Ok With You If God Multiplied Your Resources? Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand 1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Festival was near. 5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wagesa to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!” 8Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9“Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?” 10Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish. 12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten. Three Acknowledgements: God Always Starts With What You HAVE. The Miracle Happened IN The Disciple’s HANDS - Not The Lord’s. Multiplication Always Produces A Party - In God’s Honor! ONE PRINCIPLE: Everything Has To Be RETURNED To It’s Creative Source BEFORE It Can Be Multiplied. I Am Learning To Believe That God CAN And WILL Multiply The RESOURCES I Return To Him. The Only Alternative Belief Is That God DOES NOT LOVE ME & SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED With The Resources He Created. Tithing Isn’t Giving, It’s RETURNING. Tithing Is The Financial Training Wheels (10%) For Us To Learn The Principle Of Multiplication As A WAY OF LIFE in ALL THINGS! We Don’t GIVE More To GET More. We RETURN Everything We Have To MULTIPLY Everything He Touches. The Goal Of Multiplication: To Make A Multiplied Meal For Many From My Measly Morsels. The Benefit Of Multiplication: SATISFACTION And LEFTOVERS. The Choice Of Multiplication: Control Or Surrender?

Matt Cochran – Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at Christ Fellowship of Tampa 1 Corinthians 4:4-13 4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/mjcpodcast/support