Podcasts about Huh

In this episode of Fallout from Modiphius Games, we feel the Fallout from our battle (see what I did there? Huh? HUH?)Does anyone read these? I mean, REALLY read them? @ us on Twitter and let us know! Pre-order a copy here: https://www.modiphius.net/pages/falloutrpg Follow us!

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Got a whopper of a show for you today, but once again, there is no main topic. I promise this isn't a new trend. I've got some good things lined up for the next few episodes. But for now there's a fairly long intro where I talk about my company's hazmat issues, per diem tax breaks, adverse driving conditions, other trucking podcasts, and driving a fancy car. In the news segment, we've got more truck recalls, yet another safety blitz, bridges reopening, toll plazas closing, rising driver pay, new insights into driver shortages and women's affect on it, and what to do if you don't pass your DOT physical. Also, our governments are working on taxing truckers more, more COVID extensions, proposed legislation on speed limiters, sleep apnea, liability insurance, and infrastructure, all while putting the kibosh on the highway trust fund. Huh?? Oh, and teaming with a robot. Double huh?? On a lighter note, Pilot Flying J is giving away prizes this summer, there's a popular movie about truckers on Netflix, and in not so light news, a fleet owner has a controversial idea on how to increase safety. I'll also announce the winners of the Trace tablet and the $50 for the Trucker Grub contest and we'll hear from listeners on the topics of truck parking, speed limiters, the VMT tax, Walmart reefers, a longtime trucker retiring, and we'll catch up with a past interviewee and see what's up with him. Listen to the podcast version or read the full article and the podcast show notes on AboutTruckDriving.com or search for Trucker Dump in your favorite podcast app. Be sure to check out the 25% off ebook combo pack for Trucking Life and How to Find a Great Truck Driving Job while you're there. This episode of Trucker Dump is sponsored by: Volvo Trucks - Check out the new D13TC engine in the Volvo VNL series. Links mentioned in the opening segment: Can company drivers take per diem tax break? from ATBS.com 20 Best Trucking Podcasts of 2021 from WelpMagazine.com Links mentioned in the news segment: Recalls issued for certain International, Peterbilt trucks from OverdriveOnline.com Two recalls affect more than 80,000 Daimler trucks from OverdriveOnline.com Daimler recalls 122,056 heavy-duty trucks for possible loss of electric power from FreightWaves.com CPAP recall leaves truck drivers with sleep apnea between a rock and a hard place from OverdriveOnline.com FMCSA reminds truckers of risks of using CBD from OverdriveOnline.com Brake Safety Week dates announced from OverdriveOnline.com I-40 Bridge Linking Arkansas, Tennessee Reopens from ttnews.com (Transport Topics) New York State Thruway rest areas closing later this month for renovations from OverdriveOnline.com Restaurant stimulus also creates per diem tax break for truckers from OverdriveOnline.com Trucker health clinic chain abruptly ceases operations, files Chapter 7 from FreightWaves.com You failed your DOT physical. Now what? from OverdriveOnline.com Dr. Alexander E. Underwood works at KT Health Clinic near Springfield, MO. He can be reached at 855–943-3518 or email him at mail@kthealthclinic.com. Alabama truckers fight truck-only toll proposal in Mobile from OverdriveOnline.com Trucking groups sound off as Connecticut truck VMT tax signed into law from OverdriveOnline.com Pennsylvania Turnpike tolls going up – again from OverdriveOnline.com Speed limiter legislation reintroduced from OverdriveOnline.com FMCSA extends COVID-related waivers through August from OverdriveOnline.com Women more responsive than men during ‘trucking's endless summer' from OverdriveOnline.com A new shortage is impacting the freight market, and it has nothing to do with drivers from OverdriveOnline.com Appeals court denies request to rehear AB5 decision from FreightWaves.com Trucking exempt from AB 5 until Supreme Court weighs in from OverdriveOnline.com Specific sleep apnea screening criteria cut in latest draft medical examiner handbook from OverdriveOnline.com House Democrats succeed in boosting trucking insurance to $2 million from FreightWaves.com Insurance hike, parking relief not in Senate highway bill from OverdriveOnline.com Texas bill would make it harder to win damages from big rig crashes from Fox4News.com Biden sends federal motor fuels tax packing, Washington insider says from FreightWaves.com ATRI outlines research goals for 2021 from OverdriveOnline.com Major truck manufacturers plan European electric charging network from FreightWaves.com FMCSA sees potential for human-autonomous team driver regulations from FreightWaves.com Driver compensation, part 1: Guaranteed pay as a solution to trucking's ‘unknowns' from OverdriveOnline.com Driver compensation, Part 2: Time-based pay could improve fairness, reduce detention from OverdriveOnline.com Modest safety proposal: Get tougher on driver violations accountability from OverdriveOnline.com Pilot giving away $5,000 in fuel, other prizes throughout summer from OverdriveOnline.com Action flick set on ice roads comes to Netflix next month from OverdriveOnline.com Links mentioned in the Trucker Grub segment: I used WheelOfNames.com to choose the winner of the $50. Justin Byrd won by guessing what five movies are featured in the Trucker Grub intro. Links mentioned in the feedback segment: A free Trace tablet was up for grabs. Brandon Mezquiriz, William Garner, Jose Santiago, all wrote in, but Christian Cooper won by 2 hours. Julio listened to TD125: Reserved Truck Parking: Convenience Or Exploitation from AboutTruckDriving.com Driver Cee from TD 147: Be Careful Choosing A Truck Driving School from AboutTruckDriving.com Jerry sent me a photo to prove that Walmart does indeed have reefer trailers. Longtime listener/contributor Greg T announces his retirement from trucking. @Smackerman shares his thoughts on speed limiters and tracking vehicles for the proposed VMT tax. Show info: You can email your comments, suggestions, questions, or insults to TruckerDump@gmail.com Join the Trucker Dump Facebook Group Join the Trucker Dump Slack Group by emailing me at TruckerDump@gmail.com Got a second to Rate and/or Review the podcast on iTunes? Download the intro/outro songs for free! courtesy of Walking On Einstein

About Serena Serena Tiede is a SRE at Optum, a healthcare technology company that manages everything from the delivery of care to the management of patient data. Prior to becoming an SRE they were a Kafka operator for real time security logging and ingestion. In their off time, they moonlight as the proud admin of an incredibly over engineered Minecraft server.  Links: Optim: https://www.optum.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SerenaTiede Personal Blog: https://blog.serenacodes.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Your company might be stuck in the middle of a DevOps revolution without even realizing it. Lucky you! Does your company culture discourage risk? Are you willing to admit it? Does your team have clear responsibilities? Depends on who you ask. Are you struggling to get buy in on DevOps practices? Well, download the 2021 State of DevOps report brought to you annually by Puppet since 2011 to explore the trends and blockers keeping evolution firms stuck in the middle of their DevOps evolution. Because they fail to evolve or die like dinosaurs. The significance of organizational buy in, and oh it is significant indeed, and why team identities and interaction models matter. Not to mention weither the use of automation and the cloud translate to DevOps success. All that and more awaits you. Visit: www.puppet.com to download your copy of the report now!Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A recurring theme of this show has been for a while, where does the next generation of cloud engineer come from because the path I walked of being a grumpy Unix admin isn't really as commonly available as it once was, and honestly, I wouldn't wish my path on anyone in good conscience. My guest today is Serena Tiede, who's a site reliability engineer at Optim and didn't start their career as a grumpy systems administrator. Serena, welcome to the show.Serena: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm so pumped to be here.Corey: Don't worry, that will soon pass. What I'm wondering is, you didn't come to be an SRE through a giant ops background of clawing your way up by dealing with hardware and data centers and driving at unsafe speeds in the middle of the night because someone tripped over a patch cable in the data center. You have a combination of traditional/non-traditional background. Tell me about that.Serena: Yeah. So, it's funny you mentioned hardware. So, I went to school for electrical engineering, went to University of Minnesota because you want to do engineering, you pretty much going to one of the big state schools in the Midwest. So, I grew up and was like, “I want to be a hardware designer.” I'm terrible at it. So terrible. [laugh].Corey: Wait, I didn't realize that you could want to be things you were bad at. If somebody told me that early on my career, it's, “Huh. This might have taken a very different turn, and far more productive one.” I just assumed if I wasn't good at something I should give up and never try it again.Serena: Oh, I took the courses and was like, “Whoa, this is circuit design? Not for me.” Then I ended up just taking a bunch of engineering math courses. So, I took communications, the digital signal processing, controls, and started programming. I was like, all right, let's do embedded systems. No one was hiring and then come internship time, there's this little company that I've never heard of called Optim. And they're like, “We want software engineers.” Well, I can write C. Does that count?Corey: Oh, question, of course, to really ask is, “Oh, can you really write C having gone through it?” The more I talk to people who've been writing C for their entire career, and you ask them, “Can you write C?” The answer is, “Not really slash reliably. I can basically type and sometimes it works.” And, “Oh, thank God they're mortal, too.” Was my response.Serena: Oh, my opinion: no one should learn C unless there are specific reasons why. And those reasons are: you're doing embedded systems where I had to learn how to write in assembly, for three weeks, and then my professor at the end said, “Hey, we're writing C. Be thankful; it's a high-level language.”Corey: That is terrifying. But let's get back to this idea of you going to school for electrical engineering, and you didn't just dabble in it; you graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, didn't you?Serena: Oh, yes, I did. I graduated. It was fun even though, unfortunately, it still had my dead name on the diploma. So, I refer to that as my… matrix, Mr. Smith moment. [laugh].Corey: They won't go back and edit and reissue it under your actual name?Serena: I haven't bothered to look, but I almost consider it just kind of hilarious and just keeping it that way.Corey: No. Again, I am not one to ever advise people how to deal with names. When I changed my name back in 2010 or so I wound up getting a whole lot of strange looks over it. And honestly, it is no one's business, except how you interact with a name. Not the direction that we need to go in on this. I'm more interested in understanding, on some level, how you got a degree as an electrical engineer and then immediately landed a job writing software. That one feels a little strange. Can you talk me through it?Serena: Oh, yeah. So, pretty much I took a bunch of operating systems classes and was like, “Wow, this computer science thing is cool.” But I was too far in the electrical engineering track to change degrees. So, I got the degree, ended up working at Optim. I originally started off in security, oddly enough, for my internship, then came back, did a—you know, we have a rotational program so I did security for six months and then… I wound up on this team for my second rotation where their literal job description, “Write RESTful APIs in streaming applications.”Corey: So, it wasn't even a software job that focused on the close-to-the-hardware stuff where you're doing embedded systems. Like, that would at least make a bit more intuitive sense to the way I see the world. No, this was full-on up-the-stack REST API stuff.Serena: Oh, yeah. I tried embedded, but in my market, it was all medical devices, and between all of us listening here, I don't do well with medicine. Get very squeaked out, very faint. So decided, all right, let's go up the stack, and turns out, it's, like, okay, Kafka Streams. And then we were trying to figure out, “Okay, why our services—like, how do we know if it's saturated?”I'm like, “Oh, well, we have this Prometheus thing. This sounds cool.” And it was deployed on, like, you know, a rudimentary Kubernetes cluster. “Oh, hey, there's this cool service discovery thing. Let's do that.” And then one thing led to another. Thanos was coming out, and before it had a release candidate, I decided my claim to fame at the company was like, “All right, let's do this Thanos thing because it seems really cool. I read about it on Reddit.” And the distinguished engineer in the room was like, “Oh, yeah, I heard about it on Hacker News. Do it.” I did; it was rough, but it was so cool. And then I come back, like, a year later because I went back to security for a wee bit, and the same monitoring stack is still there. And they were like, “Hey, can you do more monitoring things and pivot to observability?”Corey: Yeah, let's skip past the obvious joke that I could make about someone at a healthcare company saying, “Let's do it because I read about it last night on Hacker News,” because it's just too easy at some point. It's odd, though, because I always held the belief, somewhat publicly, that an SRE role was not going to be a junior role. It was something that required quasi-significant experience to wind up moving into it, it's always felt like a transition from traditional ops roles or folks who are deep in the weeds that have been doing software engineering at scale to a point where they see how these systems fail over time in production scenarios. It doesn't sound like that was your path at all. Not to delegitimize your path by any stretch of the imagination. This is more to do with me reevaluating how I view SRE, as a field that people get into and how they approach it.Serena: I just fell into it. And the reason why I bring up my digital signal processing background is a lot of the SRE stuff I look at all of our time-series metrics, and it's like, “Oh. Well, this is just a real-time stream of data that we scrape periodically.” And it's like, “Oh, cool. So, we can look at our averages, percentiles, I can eventually do some really cool fancy digital filtering.” And kind of was like, “Oh, wow. I, kind of, know the math behind a lot of this stuff and just have to just brute force apply it in places.”Corey: Tell me a little bit more about that because with my approach to SRE—which let's be clear, was fairly crap—the math that I tended to do was mostly addition and subtraction, and for the really deep stuff, I used the most common tool to manage anything at scale, Microsoft Excel, and that mostly handled even the addition and subtraction for me what math?Serena: So, for me, a lot of it comes down to—I actually have my signals book in the other room—the big concept behind all these systems is the concept of sampling. You're not going to, real-time, get memory and CPU data every second. Processors are running at gigahertz of speed, you would need double that to recreate your signal with full fidelity. That's the Nyquist sampling theorem. But you kind of can fudge the numbers a little bit and just say, “Ehh, do we need that granular detail?”We're not trying to reproduce what happens in the past, we're just trying to see what's going on now. So, I say okay, 15-second scrape interval, things are looking good and then rolling into what I'm doing later of applying, like, “All right, let's do some fun control loops,” because people wanted service-level objectives. People want service-level objectives; everyone loves them some SLOs and SLAs. No one wants to figure out, by hand, what their baseline is. But again, some fancy—this is more controls math—figure out what your baseline is just automatically and do some little magic in the frequency domain, courtesy of Laplace transforms, and that's it. I can just automate that for you and remove the human from the equation.Corey: I'm still somewhat astounded by the fact that people calculate these things out mathematically instead of, you know, dead reckoning and confident-sounding estimation.Serena: It's really just bringing that electr—like, controls background to software. Honestly, I'm kind of baffled that no one else is found this hack because I'm just thinking, “Oh, well, I can't be that unique. Someone else has to have done that.” And then I talk to the people in the room and it's like, “Oh, wait, no, I am the only person here.” [laugh].So, that's my whole thing. Everything is just applied math. And all of our human dead reckoning, it's great, but it doesn't scale well. You know, my boss wanted me to figure out how to do our SLOs for the entire team, and turns out realist—and when it came time to hire, realistically, cloning myself was not an option. [laugh]. So—Corey: For better or worse, it seems like it isn't. So, what was your first exposure to the SRE-style space? You started off in security, but looking at the timelines on this, it wasn't that long ago. It feels like you were probably not exposed, in many cases, to physical data centers as much as you would be cloud, or at least not having to image bare-metal systems. Were you up at the AMI level, or was it beyond that in having virtual machines that moved around into full-on containers, or serverless?Serena: So, I started my internship in 2016, and got my full-time offer in 2017. And we started having our—container platforms started becoming this up-and-coming thing. You know, my lead engineers were like, “All right, you've got to learn this thing called ‘Docker.'” And I have never heard of it, but I was just amazed that, “Wow, I can just run these little, little itty bitty pods anywhere on this hardware.” And later on, I did do some, like, virtual machine stuff, but I've had the luxury of all of these years of pain and toil, to be able to say, “Oh, yeah. I can just manage things with Ansible, create my Docker files, and do everything from a code deploy pipeline style. And it was awesome.” And I just can't fathom what it's like to work without those tools, but knowing… the past, it's kind of like, “Wow, we have gotten a lot farther. Things are abstracted. This is actually kind of nice.”Corey: It kind of is, on some level. I feel like my initial reticence towards containers—I gave a talk: “Heresy in the Church of Docker,” which sort of put me on the speaker map once upon a time—and it was about all the things that Docker as a technology didn't really have good answers for. Honestly, the reason that I gave the talk was I assumed that it did have answers and I was just unaware of them, and I just gave the talk so I could publicly become the idiot who didn't know what they were talking about and then get “well actually'd” to death by [ducks 00:12:40] slash Googlers. And it turns out that no, no, at that point in time, these things were not well understood or solved for. The observability stories, the metrics, the logging, the orchestration, the security story, the how you handle things like state, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.And Kubernetes these days has largely solved a lot of those problems, but I don't dabble in those spaces just because of outright ornery. Back then it was a weird problem, but these problems have largely gotten solved in some ways. But I sort of just skipped over the whole Kubernetes slash container renaissance, and personally, I went directly into the serverless world. What's your take on that?Serena: Oh, so as someone who loved Kubernetes, I was a serverless skeptic, initially. I was like, “Well, I can just build my Docker file and write the deployment manifest. No big deal.” And then I started working on my side project. For, I think, better purposes, my iCloud account is tied to my credit card and I have to actually be on the hook for cloud bills. And I use GCP for my home lab and lo and behold, 1 million requests a month for free. And I love the sound of free when it's my money on the line.Corey: Oh, yeah, company money versus enterprise money, radically different scales. I mean, if you try and sell me personally a $50 hamburger, I'm going to tell you to go to hell. If you try to sell me, as representative of my company, a $50 hamburger, I'm going to need a receipt.Serena: Exactly. And then also, like I'm just running through, I was redoing one of my serverless functions and watching the deploy steps. And then one of my coworkers introduced me, he's like, “Hey, Serena, you hear this thing called ‘Buildpack?'” and I'm like, “No. What on earth is that thing?” And he's like, “Oh, well, you take your code, and then it just magically turns into a container.” I'm like, “Well, crap. Show me.” And lo and behold, code goes in one end, nice little container comes out the other. And that crap was magic.Corey: It really does change the world if you let it. I think. I know it sounds like a ridiculous, I guess, hype-driven thing to say, but for the right use case, it's great because it removes the entire administrative burden from running services. Now, critics are going to say that well, that means you're just putting all of your reliability in the hands of your cloud provider. Yeah, we're kind of all doing that already; serverless just, sort of, forces us to be a little bit more honest with ourselves about that.Serena: Oh, yeah. I mean, even if you self-host things, you're relying on your data center ops people to, like, make sure, oh, I don't know, your machines don't literally catch fire. We literally had a bug one time where it's like, “Why is this one node bad?” “Oh, actually—hey, did you increase the fan speed?” Someone had to literally go increase the fan speed for whatever servers, which, again, in the serverless and cloud provider world, I don't think about that. The cloud is just infinite to me. It's just computers and APIs as far as the eye can see. It's wonderful.Corey: It really is. It's amazing, and it's high level, and on some level, you went from getting a degree that required you to write assembly and super low-level stuff and figure it out hardware works into, let's be honest, writing in your primary language, which for all of us in SRE-land is, of course, YAML.Serena: Oh, I am a very spicy YAML engineer. YAML and a little bit of Go for what I need to make things go.Corey: You ever notice there's never a language called ‘Stay,' or ‘Stop,' or anything like that? It's always about moving to the next thing. And we in engineering always have sprint after sprint after sprint. Never a, “It's a marathon, not a sprint. Relax. Walk. Enjoy the journey.” Nope, nope, nope. Faster, further, sooner.Serena: Yeah, it is honestly weird because my relatively short career span, you know, it's 2021 and I graduated in 2017. The company is like, “Hey, you're a senior software engineer now.” Here's a program, here's a budget. Go forth.Corey: Oh, that's lucky. It must have been amazing to have an actual budget. When I started out, I was in one of those shops where it's, “Yeah, Palo Alto wants $4,000 for that appliance. That's okay. We have some crappy instances and pfSense, and you know, we could wind up spending eight weeks of your time to build something not as good. Get on it.”Serena: While the hilarious part is I'm stressing out about every single dollar I'm spending and then my boss is like, “Oh, you know, your budget is super small potatoes, right, compared to like our other stuff? Don't sweat it. It's fine.”Corey: I keep making this point to the cloud providers where they're somewhat parsimonious free tiers are damaging longer-term adoption because I look at building something myself, in my spare time in my dorm room or whatnot, and I'm spinning up some instances that talk to each other and I want to use a load balancer and I want to use a managed NAT gateway—God forbid—and at the end of the month, I get a bill for $300. And it's, what the hell is this? I thought I was on the free tier and it scares the living hell out of us. So, we learn not to use those services that are higher level and differentiated. And then when we start working in environments that have budgeting and are corporate, we still remember that, and, “Oh, don't use that thing. It's expensive.” And you'll inadvertently spend 80 times as much in what your employer is paying for your time, rather than using the high-level thing because they could not care less about a $500 a month charge. And it's this weird thing that really serves as a drag on adoption.Serena: It's super wei—I actually literally had this conversation with one of my engineers who wanted to, “Hey, we're trying to expose a GRPC thing.” And I had issues getting it to work with an ingress. And he's like, “Do you want me to take a crack at that?” And I'm like, “Look at the price of the load balancer.” And I'm like, “Unless you can figure it out in half an hour… it is literally more expensive for you to continue tilting at that windmill than for us to just leave it be.” [laugh]. And it's also weird. I have my personal stuff where I'm trying to keep my cloud bill to, you know, maybe a humble $100 a month max, versus, “Oh, the enterprise? Oh, yeah. That's just logging that you're paying for.” Which is baffling to me.Corey: I feel like as engineers, we always, always, always fall into this trap. And maybe I fall into it worse than others because my entire business is actually lowering the bill. But when I started as an independent consultant, my bill was something like seven bucks a month, which yeah, I'm pretty content with that. And I started looking at ways to golf it lower, which in most cases is never worth the time, but in my case, I should really understand every penny of the AWS bill or I'm going to have a problem someday. And now I look at it recently because we have a number of engineers building things here, and our bill was over $2,000 a month.And true story, by the way, it turns out that your AWS bill is not so much a function of how many customers you have; it's how many engineers you have. And I look at this and, “Oh, my God, we need to fix that immediately.” And I spent a little bit of time on it and knocked 500 bucks off, and, “Whew, that's better.” And it still bugs me to see a $1500 bill; it feels like it's an awful lot of money. I mean, think of what you can buy for 1500 bucks a month.And then in the context of the larger business picture, compared to payroll, compared to all the other nonsense we use, like Tableau, for example, it's nothing. It is a rounding error that gets lost in the weeds. I never understood that before having access to company budgets. When I was an employee, this was never explained to me, so I was always optimizing for absolutely the wrong thing in hindsight. It feels like this is part of the problem that we run into as a culture when we don't give our staff context to make the right decisions.Serena: Yeah, I actually do appreciate the way my company does things because I am, like—not personally, my bank account, but I am, like, responsible if someone should ask, “Hey, what's this charge for?” I have to say, “Oh, well, it's for all of these things, and we need that.” But for the most part, it's been really weird to, kind of, learn, like, one of the ways I, kind of, sped up my, like, “Okay, I need to learn how business works. What do I do?” Well, quite honestly, a lot of my cloud cost tips I have learned from your various podcasts. [laugh].Corey: Uh-oh, that's a problem.Serena: No, but like, all of a sudden, all this stuff and just hanging out on tech Twitter and hearing all the advice of people and then… it was, kind of a weird way of, like, yeah, years-wise, yeah, some people might look me askance and be, like, “You're really a senior engineer?” But then they hear me speak and it's all about like, “Oh, well, I”—again—“I stand on the shoulders of giants,” which is awesome, and I'm honestly just hoping that one day I will write something that is very cool and then someone will say, “Oh, well, they were right on these things, but not right on this. Let's edit this to make it a little bit better.” And the standing on the shoulders of giants trend continues.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part my Cribl Logstream. Cirbl Logstream is an observability pipeline that lets you collect, reduce, transform, and route machine data from anywhere, to anywhere. Simple right? As a nice bonus it not only helps you improve visibility into what the hell is going on, but also helps you save money almost by accident. Kind of like not putting a whole bunch of vowels and other letters that would be easier to spell in a company name. To learn more visit: cribl.ioCorey: I'm a little taken aback by the fact that you've learned a lot of this stuff from the podcast because I tend to envision when I'm telling stories about this, companies that show ads, or my mythical Twitter for Pets startup. I have to remember that there are banks, like, is one of the examples of serious businesses that I use all the time. But you're in healthcare. I'm sorry, that's more serious than finance, just because—I hate to say this because it sounds incredibly privileged and I don't even care—it's only money. What is money compared to the worth of someone's life?I don't think that you can ever draw an equivalent and I feel dirty every time I try. When you're working with things that impact people's ability to access healthcare, that is more important than showing banner ads. And a lot of the stories I tell about, “Maybe it's okay to have downtime.” Because yeah, if AWS takes a region down issue for an afternoon and you can't show ads to people or your website isn't working, yeah, that's kind of sad and it's obviously not great for your business, but at the same time, the stories in the news are always about Amazon's issue, not about your specific issue. If you're in an environment where there's a possibility that people will die if what you have built is not available, we're having a radically different conversation.Serena: Exactly. Fortunately, for me, I personally, not working in the, like, kind of, care delivery space, but the stuff I'm working on right now is supporting, you know, that lovely end-of-the-year where it's open enrollment, all the employers are saying, “Hey, time to re-up your benefits.” Yeah, it's kind of a big deal that our site doesn't go down. Because—Corey: Yeah. And open enrollment, to my understanding, changes based upon what plan you're on. I've known companies that have open enrollment in the summertime. I believe ours winds up coinciding pretty closely with the calendar year, but I've certainly worked in environments where that wasn't true. So, being able to say, “Oh, it's fine. It's April; no one's doing open enrollment now.” Is it actually true?Serena: So, it totally depends on which part of your business. If you're going through the healthcare exchanges, that's usually more in the fall. I think the Medicare plans, those are a little bit before the individual enrollments. And there's a ton of these things that even though I just work tangentially, that I'm just not even in the know for. And then, of course, we talk about open enrollment, but the thing that a lot of people don't really talk about is, so what happens when your plan goes live on January first of the next year? Yep. Our site's still got to be up. And it's a responsibility I take really seriously because it impacts so many people.Corey: It really does. And it shouldn't, to be clear. I try to avoid getting overly political on this podcast, but the state of healthcare in the United States as of the time of this recording is barbaric. And I really, really, really hope there comes a day where someone's listening to this and laughing because it's such an antiquated and outmoded story that isn't true anymore. But I'm terrified that it won't be.And yeah, having access to a website lets you sign up for healthcare during a limited period of availability, if you miss that window, you don't have healthcare, in many cases, until the following year when open enrollment opens again, or honestly, you wind up changing jobs because that is a qualifying event to change healthcare. “Well, I missed the open enrollment window, so I have to quit and take a job somewhere else,” is a terrifying thing. It's bad for the business for a variety of reasons, but that pales in comparison to the fact that people have to make life-altering career decisions based upon a benefit that is routed through an employer when it should not be. Okay, I'll climb off my soapbox.Serena: Oh, it's bizarre to me. Honestly, for better or worse—I argue worse—but I'm honestly optimistic. One of the weirdest things I saw that stuck out from the most recent stimulus bill was, “Oh, hey. We're having a special enrollment period during a pandemic.” And I'm like, “You know, it's not a hundred percent.Maybe we should just extend it to the whole year.” But it's better than what was the previous state, where it's like I can't make—I mean, even in my work life, I can't make everything perfect. I can't make outages go away, but I can make things just a touch better. And that's all I can do.Corey: Sometimes all we can do, and I wish there were better ways to handle that. I don't know what the future is going to hold, but I also think that there are bright areas. There are aspects that are promising as far as the future being brighter than today. The overall trend—I hope—is for humanity to uplift itself.Serena: Totally.Corey: Again, I do want to highlight that you went in a very strange direction where you went from software engineering—a generally pleasant job—to SRE, which is horrible and would not be recommended to anyone. What guidance would you have for people who are, for some godforsaken reason, trying to figure out what their career trajectory is going to be like, and thinking that they might want to become an SRE—even if they're not in tech yet—because for some reason they hear the stories and think there's some nobility in suffering or whatnot?Serena: Well, for starters, for me, it kind of came down to get real good with this great math. It's boring, but that's kind of the bread and butter of the concepts I've learned. Also for junior people, if you're also just curious—say you've written an app, go over to OpenTelemetry. Go, like, instrument your stuff and see how many requests you get in a day. Start getting your hands dirty with instrumentation.Look at how cool it is, and then maybe you want to start structuring your logs; maybe you start end up doing tracing. But at the end of the day, it's all, for me, I think best learning is just experiential, and you know, one of the things where how do you learn from production outages? Go to happy hour with some of the senior people and listen to the stories that they tell. With enough time they become funny, but they're also valuable learning things.Corey: The aspect I would push back on is the hard requirement around discrete math. I don't deny that it has been helpful for what you've done and how you do it. I don't know how any of that stuff works on paper; I have an eighth-grade education. That was never my path and never my strong suit. I would agree that knowing it would have made aspects of what I do easier, but the bulk of it I don't necessarily know that I would agree. I guess, my counterpoint slash pushback would be that if you thought you'd like this, but you don't want to deal with the math, it's not a hard requirement, and I don't think that I would frame it as one.Serena: Actually, that is a very good catch. It is not a hard requirement. I am not sitting here in my notebook, scribbling away at equations. But the concepts that I've learned from a while back, it's the concepts are way more important than the actual computation itself. Because computers do that, and a computer will absolutely run circles around me.Corey: Most of us do, unless, you know, the computer is an overheating processor from Intel. But that's a little bit of a low blow. Not that it stopped me. But it was a low blow.Serena: Well, I mean, your local science supply shop might have some liquid nitrogen. Maybe.Corey: So, what's next for you? You started off in security slash software engineering, transitioned on over to SRE work. What's the next step? What's the beyond for you?Serena: Ohh, great question. So, I don't really know. I'm enjoying the SRE thing. At some point, might write a book trying to make all the concepts I have learned from my electrical engineering degree, maybe a bit more accessible, be it a series of blog posts, maybe a book. I would love to get a book published. And honestly, just writing more because knowledge should be shared, and if someone learns something from my nonsense experiments on my home lab, then cool; it's all worth it.Corey: I'd agree with that. I'm a big fan of learning in public. One of the, I guess, magical things that I do, for lack of a better term, is that I will stumble my way through learning a new concept that I have no idea what I'm doing, and when I get lost, I call it out because invariably, I'm not the only person who runs into that problem. But for folks who don't have—I don't know if it's the platform, the seniority, the perceived gravitas, the very intentional misdirection where I fooled the entire world into thinking I know what the hell I'm doing, whatever that is, most people have a problem with admitting they don't know something and learning in public, so anytime I can take up that mantle or that burden, I love doing it, just because I don't have any technical credibility to lose from my point of view. I wish that were more accepted and more common. That's why I'm so intentional about being able to talk, on some level, about the things I don't understand or the things that I don't get.Serena: I love that. I used to read a bunch of philosophy books, way back when, and my big thing, this great quote—I always get it confused, Plato or Socrates, but it's, “I know that I know nothing,” and I just run with that because I mean, even though fortunately, for me, my corner of the internet, as a non-binary person, no one's really mean to me when I say, “Okay, I broke my DNS,” because, honestly, I knew DNS conceptually when I was setting up my Minecraft server for friends, but I never really got it until I, well, kind of, broke it, [laugh] and eventually fixed it. But I hope that over time, it becomes more acceptable to say, “I don't know things.” Within my team, I tell anyone that's working with me when they're asking me a question, say, “I don't know, but I have a feeling this rabbit hole, this trail of crumbs might lead us to an answer.” And then it's a fun little adventure.Corey: I miss the days when I could describe what I do is a fun little adventure. It's now, “Oh, dear Lord, it's this bullshit again.” [sigh]. That was my sign that I was burned out, in time, find other things to do than keeping sites up.Now, I have no on-call responsibilities because there's no real site to keep up. Thank you, serverless, I get to sleep at night again. But there are times I miss aspects of working in the trenches, of being able to dive deep into a problem on a very large scale architecture. The grass is always greener, somehow.Serena: The grass is always greener. In a weird way, I actually, I complain about my on-call weeks, but I actually kind of love them. There's a weird camaraderie about all of us dealing with a shared thing. And on my team, it's really cool because we do this whole thing where, you know, I have these junior people asking, “Oh, am I going to go on call?” And we're like, “Well, unfortunately, you're not quite fully baked yet. Not quite ready. Once you're here longer with us, then yeah, we'll go walk you through a game day and make sure you can do all the things. But being on-call, it should not be a punishment for people.” Honestly, it's just the greatest feedback mechanism that guides me because I say, “Wow, this stinks. This could be better.” And then try to make it better.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about these things, or potentially even reach out for advice, where can they find you?Serena: So, I am on Twitter at @Serena—S-E-R-E-N-A—Tiede—T-I-E-D-E. DMs are open; come bug me. I got my lovely blog. It's just blog.serenacodes.com. It's pretty bare-bones, but I'll have some new content up there hopefully pretty soon, once I get around to writing it. And say hi. I like meeting new people and learning new things. Adventures await.Corey: And we will, of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:34:30]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it, Serena.Serena: Hey, thank you. I am so happy to be here. This was one of my life goals, and now I don't know what to do now that I've gone up here.Corey: That's the problem with achieving these bucket list items. It's, “Oh, well, I wake up the following day. Now, what do I do?” And when life eventually returns to normal, on some level. [laugh]. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it.Serena: Thank you. Have a great day.Corey: Serena Tiede, site reliability engineer at Optim. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment saying that if you think that C is a high-level language, oh, just wait until you explore the beauty and majesty of Rust.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 196. Welcome to Your Anxiety Toolkit. I'm your host, Kimberley Quinlan. This podcast is fueled by three main goals. The first goal is to provide you with some extra tools to help you manage your anxiety. Second goal, to inspire you. Anxiety doesn't get to decide how you live your life. And number three, and I leave the best for last, is to provide you with one big, fat virtual hug, because experiencing anxiety ain't easy. If that sounds good to you, let's go. Welcome back, you guys. We have had a break. We are back. I'm actually recording this before I was back, so I don't even really know how I feel once this episode will be out, but nonetheless, I have been holding off and wanting to do this episode as the welcome back episode for the new season of Your Anxiety Toolkit. Today we have with us, my Assistant, my Executive Assistant, one of the most important people behind the scenes at CBT School and in my private practice. She is my intake coordinator. She is the doer of all things. She was originally hired as my Chief Copywriter. She does a lot of work behind the scenes for me. Her name is Elle Warren. Her and I have been working together for some time now. It has been such a pleasure to get to know her. She today is going to share with you, just so you know, who it is behind the scenes if you're ever in contact with us or you're reading out Instagram posts or a newsletter or emails. She's doing a lot of this stuff for me and we're working together very closely. I wanted you to feel like you knew her, just like you know me. She also comes with a beautiful recovery story where she shares her experience with mental health and OCD and health anxiety, and grief, and post-traumatic stress disorder and experiencing, and really coming to find a place of peace with her sexual orientation. It is a beautiful, beautiful episode. I'm so, so excited to share it with you. Again, I want you to feel like you know us. I want you to feel like you trust us and you know who's behind the scenes, and that's why this was so important to me. So, I hope you do enjoy the show. Elle really does share her story so vulnerably. If you do notice some background noises, Elle was in a really rural location, a lot of background noise. So, bear with us there. We were doing the best we can. I wanted to make sure we had this episode recorded before we left, so please bear with me. The content is still fabulous. I hope that isn't too difficult on your listening. In addition, welcome back. So thrilled to be back. I've been trying to do episodes through the school year and then take some time off for the summer. This season, we have some big plans, some amazing guests. I am really dialed in with specifically what I want to address this season. So, get excited about that. I hope you're well. I hope you're being kind to yourself and you had a lovely summer and you had some time to rest and recover. I will share here very soon about our trip and what happened and what I learnt and what I experienced. I always like to refer to a couple of reflections later on, but first, I hope you enjoy this episode with Elle. ----- Kimberley: All right. Welcome, everybody. This is a really wonderful start to another season of the podcast because I have here with me one of my core team members, Elle Warren. Thanks so much for coming on, Elle. Elle: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Kimberley: All right. Let me share. I know everyone's listened to the intro, but let's just talk about how important you are as a part of helping me. I'm so grateful for all the work that you do to help me, so thank you. Elle: Yes. I love it. Kimberley: Yeah. The reason that you're so special is because you're so special. But in addition to being so special, you're so wonderful as a part of this team because you get it. You get what we're talking about, and that's why I'm so grateful to have you on our team. I'd love to spend some time you sharing that story if you're comfortable and telling us a little bit about your background. Do you want to give us an intro to your story? Elle: Sure. Yeah. It is a long and winding journey, but I will try my best. I have had OCD for as long as I can remember, but I did not know that it was OCD until about two years ago. I was only actually diagnosed in February of 2020, so right before the pandemic, but I had been learning a lot on my own before that and came to that conclusion. Big themes for me growing up were sexual orientation, health anxiety, safety things. I remember I would always ask my mom for reassurance all the time. And then my mom passed away a little over three years ago now when I was 20, and that was the catalyst for my mental health feeling more unmanageable. I started having panic attacks. I was later much more recently diagnosed with PTSD from her illness and death and all of that as well. At the time, I just thought that my brain was broken, that I was broken. I can see now that it was just the intersections of OCD and PTSD and grief that is a pretty nodded up ball of things. So, that's an overview. Kimberley: When did you notice these symptoms first start? Was it in childhood, you said? Elle: Yeah. I can definitely look back and see it in childhood. I remember one time when I was little, I don't know, I was probably five or six, and there was a storm going on outside and I was so convinced that a tree was going to fall on our house. I remember I just kept asking my mom, “The tree was going to fall on our house.” That's one example. Kimberley: Did your mom suspect anything? I mean, was that something that was in your family, or was that just like Elle being Elle? Elle: I think no one really talked about mental health in my family. I know now that there is a history of mental illness, at least on one side, maybe on both, but it wasn't talked about at the time. Kimberley: Isn't it crazy when you find out, after the fact that you have this whole long line of genetics? It's like, “Why didn't I get told this information?” Elle: Yeah, exactly. Right. It's like, okay, there were definitely some signs that could have been. I mean, I don't blame my parents. They were only doing what they knew and what they were taught, but it would have been nice if those things were acknowledged and then noticed earlier on and if treatment was offered earlier on. Kimberley: Right. Sometimes it's that our parents didn't even know they had stuff. Often not even a parenting blunder. It's like they had no idea the words to use to describe things either, right? Elle: Right. Exactly. Kimberley: Yeah. Do you want to share that about your themes? For those who are listening, we will share at the end that you've written some amazing blogs for us and we will make sure we have those in the show notes, but do you want to share about the specific themes that you've struggled with? Elle: Yeah. I think the most significant one, like I said, was the sexual orientation one. That was definitely the one that I can remember taking up the most time and causing me the most distress. One day when I was probably 12 or 13, I was in middle school and I remember I was sitting on the sidelines at cheerleading practice and I had this memory come back to me of this girl in my neighborhood that when we were little, we used to kiss sometimes, which is a very innocent thing. We were four years old. But I agonized over that and wanted to know what it meant and be certain of what it meant. I grew up Catholic and I grew up in a relatively more conservative area, so to me, the idea that I could be anything besides straight was just unthinkable. I think I said this in my blog post about it, but almost equivalent to remembering I had killed someone or something super dramatic like that. Kimberley: And that was because of what you'd been taught? Elle: Yes. Really from the ages of 13 to 20, 21, that was a really big thing. It would come in and out, like I'd let it go for a little while, and then it would come back in full force. I would be imagining scenarios in my head all the time and trying to predict how I would feel in them. I would look at people when I was out and ask myself if I was attracted to them and all of that. Now, I identify as bisexual. I think that adds to it as well because bisexuality is often invalidated and there's the pressure to pick a side and all of that. I didn't really know. I didn't know much about my bisexuality. I didn't know anyone that was openly bisexual. I didn't see people on TV that were bisexual. I think it was not only hard for me to accept that I could not be straight, but it also didn't really feel like a possibility that I could be open to more than one gender. Kimberley: What was that transition like? It sounds like from what you've told us, there's this absolute struggle with this idea at the start and it being a lot of uncertainty. I think you're mentioning you have a lot of rumination around that. How did you get to the place where you are now? Elle: After my mom died, about a year after, I ended up moving from Michigan to Denver. Denver is what I would call a fairly liberal city. I knew a lot of people that were open with their sexuality and I wasn't around the people that have known me my whole life, because it's a lot harder to go against the expectations of people who have known your whole life. It's different when you can create the self that you feel like you are when you can start with that. I think I felt like I had the freedom to explore who I really was. I knew I had people that I could identify with. Also, I think the experience of losing my mother, who was the absolute, closest person in my life, I think it just made me less afraid, in general, because, it sounds cliché, but it was like, you're hit with the fact that time is limited, and you don't want to waste it. You don't want to waste it by being unhappy or hiding parts of yourself. I think in general, it just made me a lot less afraid and less timid because I realized that if there's so much out of my control, I'm definitely not going to waste time not being who I am. Kimberley: You move from a place of being uncertain to just fully accepting radically who you were and just waited to land wherever you landed. Is that how the shift was? Elle: Yeah, pretty much. I don't know. I remember I was laying in bed one day trying to go to sleep and it just went off like a light bulb in my head. I was like, “Oh, I'm--” other times, pansexual has felt more, right? Truthfully, I don't get too caught up in a specific label, but at the time I was like, “Yeah, I'm not straight.” It just went off like a light bulb. I think maybe the groundwork for that was laid by the radical acceptance that I had cultivated for my mental health, because like I said, after losing my mom, my brain and my nervous system really went into overdrive and my mental health was really, really, really a struggle. But at that point, I had cultivated a lot of acceptance and self-love for that. And so, I think maybe that foundation was laid there and then paved the way for me to also accept my sexuality. I think I just realized that it actually doesn't matter that much. These days, I embrace the uncertainty. Like I said, I don't care that much about the label. If bisexual feels right now, cool. If lesbian feels right one day, cool. I more so just have the attitude of like, I'm going to date who I want to date and listen to my heart. The certainty doesn't actually matter. Kimberley: Yeah. It's such a cool concept too. I think a lot of the interviews I've heard around sexual orientation is like, “Oh, I had all this uncertainty and I did the treatment and none of my fears came true or whatever.” You know what I mean? Elle: Yeah. Kimberley: I love that you're really walking the walk because you had fear and uncertainty and you just continued to be uncertain. It's not like you have some resolution at the enemy. There was. But I love that you're just in a place of just being at it. It is what it is. I feel like that's a story that's missing when it comes to sexual orientation OCD. Elle: Right. I think that's a really good point because it's true. The uncertainty didn't go away. My attitude on the uncertainty just changed. I think you're getting over the hump of shame that comes along with non-heterosexuality is a big part of that too, because I've seen on social media, I feel like a lot of people, it really scares them that someone else who had sexual orientation OCD actually turned out to be not straight. I think that that's scary for a lot of people. That's a whole other thing. That's not just OCD, that's the shame that many of us have grown up associating with non-heterosexuality. Kimberley: Right. That internalized stigma that is placed on us. Elle: Right. Kimberley: I really love when you wrote that article and we will share it again, and you share a lot of this story. I really do love it because I really worry sometimes when I see Instagram posts and things of like, “Everything I've ever worried about never came true.” You know what I mean? I see that's true for a lot of people, but it is a form of reassurance almost of like, “Don't worry, your fear is just a thought.” I think this is an opportunity to fully embrace these concepts. The thing I love about what you're talking about the most, and I don't hear enough people talking about it, is it's coming from a place of just genuine love. Not from a place of like, “Well, my therapist told I have to radically accept it.” You know what I mean? Elle: Yeah. Right. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I've just loved that story so much, even though I hate that you have gone through a difficult time. You talked about your moms and the grief around that, you talked about how her loss helped you move into radical acceptance, but how else did that impact you and your recovery or your struggles? Elle: In so many ways. The person that I was before and the person that I am now are two very, very different people. I think the biggest thing is like, my mom and I were very close. I'm the youngest of four kids and I'm the youngest by a lot. So, I definitely got my parents, especially my mom, all to myself a lot. I was very emotionally dependent on her. She was a huge source of love and the most loving mom that I could have asked for. That said, I hadn't really learned how to mother myself, how to be my own source of love and affirmation, and all of that. That's terrifying to just be dropped into. I think the ideal situation, if we all got to have ideal situations, would be that we gradually get to that point. We grow into adulthood while we still have that support, which is the same, my dad is supportive but in a very different way. I felt like there was no one there to hold me up or to witness me. I just felt very alone. She was, I think, the person that I was the most vulnerable with. So, not having that just was really scary. I didn't know how to cultivate that in myself for a long time. I do now, which is a really good thing. Kimberley: How did you learn that? I feel like I don't know how to do that really, really perfectly. You know what I'm saying? I think there should be a course in middle school that teaches you how to do that. Elle: Yeah. There should be. I think part of it is like, what I learned from her in terms of how she cared for me, I think that I tried to replicate that for myself. There's a lot of trial and error and it was a lot of not wanting to do it, but I'm making myself do it just in terms of making myself meals, getting out, and going for a walk. Very basic things. Because when you're in the thick of something like that, the basic things are still hard things. I think it came from this almost outside source of love that I have for myself and the life that I know that I want for myself. It was like, I knew that I deserved that and I knew that I could get there someday again. This is a cliché metaphor, but I felt like I just needed to climb this mountain. I felt like I just needed to keep taking steps. And then maybe eventually, I would be able to see out over the top. I do have other familial support as well. I have siblings and my father. In terms of some other ways, it's affected me. It definitely did not help my health anxiety because throughout the time that she was sick, there just were a lot of fluke things that happened, a lot of things where doctors would be like, “Huh, we've never seen that before,” things like that. So, that has been an increased challenge. Kimberley: Are you still working through that? I mean, that has to be really scary because that's what the voice of OCD says, right? Like, “This one symptom is one of the symptoms that's going to kill you,” kind of thing. Given that that was your experience, how are you managing that? Elle: It's definitely gotten better over the years. Something that I still struggle with, it's-- I dunno. I'm a lot better at recognizing when I'm in an OCD spiral. I can usually, most of the time, be an observer of it and notice what's happening. I also did choose to go on medication just earlier this year. For me, that has been really helpful. Kimberley: And that helps with the health anxiety or for the grief or for a combo of all? Elle: It's helped in a lot of different ways. Honestly, it's helped with the PTSD symptoms a lot and it's helped with OCD symptoms. It's helped with depression symptoms. I mean, it can be hard to pick out which is which because they all feed off of each other. I feel like even if it's really just helping with one of those things, it helps all the other areas too. But just in general, it's been a game-changer. Kimberley: What degree did you have to practice exposure and response prevention for all of these symptoms? Was that a part of your work? How did you navigate all of that? Did you do it on your own? Did you have a therapist? Elle: I have only practiced ERP on my own. I have a therapist that I was working with for quite a while. I think I was seeing her regularly for probably two years. I found out, this was only maybe six months ago, just through us talking, I learned that she didn't understand OCD really at all. So, I don't see her anymore. I just try to do ERP on my own every day, and that has worked for me so far, honestly. I would like to work with an ERP-trained therapist at some point, but right now, that still has made a huge difference. Kimberley: Right. How was it to do it on your own? I mean, a lot of people, this is a common question I get – “Do I need to have an ERP therapist?” Of course, with CBT School, we have the course. We have ERP School. “Is that enough? Or could I do a workbook or could I just go off of what I've seen people do on social media?” How did you bring yourself to do that? Is it just by your own education? How did you learn? Elle: I feel like I started doing it really before I even knew what it was called, before I even knew that it was like a thing because again, I just kept going back to the vision that I had of myself and who I wanted to be, who I knew I could be, my love for myself. But I think that that can sound really romanticized like, “Oh yeah, I just did it on my own, and I'm pulling myself up by my bootstraps.” But it was hard. In retrospect, I probably should've asked for more help than I did. I mean, I don't fault myself for any of this because you can't know what you don't know, right? But I wish I would have been more honest with the people in my life about how poorly I was really feeling. I'm proud of all of those exposures that I did every day. Sometimes it feels and felt literally like you're walking into the jaws of a shark and you don't know whether or not you're going to come out. It really does feel like that. That's not easy. I think having someone to support you through that and walk you through that is probably really helpful. Kimberley: Right. It sounds to me like you use naturally a lot of, and I could be wrong here, tell me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what we would call acceptance and commitment therapy tools, like your values really left you, led you down the road you wanted to be at like, “What do I want with my life?” Sometimes that voice and that question, remember, we talked about asking good questions. That's a really good question like, “What do I want for my life?” I think that can sometimes lead us in that direction. Would you agree with that? Elle: Yeah, I would. I think that that is what was carrying me through a lot of the time. Kimberley: Right. I have one more question if you're willing to share. What was it like for you to have PTSD? A lot of people I know have either been misdiagnosed with PTSD and then find out they have OCD or they find out they have both. What did that look like for you? Elle: For me, it was a lot of not being able to focus, not being able to be present. I felt really depersonalized and/or derealized much of the time. The panic attacks again, like I said, and the memories always felt very close. They didn't feel like things that happened a while ago. They felt like things that just happened. Honestly, that's been a big difference that I've noticed with the medication is that I can say they feel they were things that happened a long time ago. It's still painful, yes, blah, blah, blah. But it happened a long time ago. The way that I would describe it at the time, I remember thinking about this metaphor, it felt like my brain was just this mass of cross wires that were sparking, and again, it felt broken. Kimberley: Yeah. That's a really interesting metaphor. I think a lot of people would really resonate with that. Memories, cross wire, everything's misconnected, and so forth. Elle: Right. Because it changes the chemistry of your brain. Kimberley: Right. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's something we don't talk about a lot. It's something that I'm actually in the process of being trained on more extensively because I think a lot of people do have PTSD and it has been misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed. I'm so grateful that you're sharing about that. Thank you. I know it's not easy to share that stuff. Elle: No. I'm honestly really grateful to be able to because I think younger me would have appreciated hearing something like this a lot. Kimberley: Well, before we finish up, I have a couple of questions, not related to your mental health, but just more related to you and I because I love what you're sharing here. I'm so grateful you shared this information because I think there's a story here that I think a lot of people may resonate with or be appreciative of to see that you're on the side where you're at right now. It's very cool. What is it like to work for a CBT School? Go ahead. I didn't tell you I was going to ask you this question. You can be as honest as you want. What is it like for you to work in the work that we do? And again, you don't have to make it sound good. Elle: I'll tell the truth. I appreciate being able to share information that, again, I would have needed or has been helpful for me along this journey. Also, they're good reminders for me. If I'm writing something about self-care or whatever, then I'm like, “Okay, it's a good reminder. Okay, I need to practice what I preach.” They're good check-ins. Also, doing it on social media platforms is just a really powerful reminder that, “Oh yeah, it wasn't just me. This isn't just me. Lots of people feel this way, and they also have worried that it was just them.” That's really connective. Obviously, you relate to this – I need to be fulfilled by my work and I need to feel like it's purposeful and I need to feel like it's connective, and it is those things. Kimberley: Am I just the biggest pain in the butt boss you've ever had? You can be totally honest. I am totally a pain in the butt boss. I know I am. Elle: No. I do tell people how much I like working for you. You have been definitely, I would say, the most understanding and flexible boss that I've had. Kimberley: I think that's because I was going to say, nearly every staff meeting, we made it almost this time. I think every single time I go, “You're going to have to bear with me. I'm all over the place today,” I have to apologize for how messed up everything is. I'm like, “You're going to have to forgive me. I have no idea what I'm doing.” Elle: Right. It's like we've said in posts before, like being imperfect, it gives other people permission to be imperfect. Kimberley: Right. I agree. Thank you. When I asked this, I was like, I wouldn't doubt if she was like, “Oh boy, I feel uncomfortable, I don't want to tell you the truth.” For those who don't know, Elle and I meet, and we go through probably 40 things we have to get through. We have this whole list of social media or newsletters and podcasts and SEO and websites and all these things. I think every time I started going, “I really have no idea--” I will add, which I think is hilarious, is that Elle went on a vacation recently and asked me to do some of her jobs. I actually had no idea how to do that. I literally had no idea how to do the jobs that you do for me. Thank you so much for being my friend and helping me in those moments. Elle: Yes, absolutely. Kimberley: Right. I'm like, “I have no idea how to call my own clients,” or “I have no idea how to write my own email here, help me.” I'm so grateful for the work that you do. I think that you have a voice. Again, you actually came on to CBT School as the copywriter, as our Chief Copywriter, and your voice is so exactly the voice we need. Your compassion and your experience and your kindness – it's wonderful. Elle: That's awesome. I'm so grateful that we have found each other. Kimberley: Yeah, me too. I'm so, so grateful. Before we finish up, tell us where people can find out about you or get your information. Besides the work we do here, where can they get your personal stuff? Elle: Yes. You can find me @griefgurlwithocd on Instagram. I spelled girl G-U-R-L, and everything else is spelled normal. I'm not super active on it, but I do love getting messages from people. Feel free to reach out there. Kimberley: Thank you. All right. Everyone, I'll link the blog that you wrote about sexual orientation OCD. They can read that too. Thank you so much for coming on. Elle: All right. Thank you. ----- Please note that this podcast or any other resources from cbtschool.com should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day and thank you for supporting cbtschool.com.

Katie Chin is a celebrity chef, award-winning cookbook author, spokesperson, food blogger and the Culinary Ambassador to the National Pediatric Cancer Foundation. Katie has had a cooking show called “Double Happiness” with her mother Leeann, has appeared on TV shows like “The Real” and “The Today Show,” and written five cookbooks including her latest — “Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook” filled with internationally-inspired recipes your friends and family will love.    Read more about Katie Chin. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Katie Chin, a celebrity chef award-winning cookbook, author spokesperson, food blogger, and the culinary ambassador to the National Pediatric Cancer Foundation. Katie has had a cooking show called "Double Happiness" with her mother Leeann, has appeared on TV shows like "The Real" and "The Today Show" and written five cookbooks, including her latest "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" filled with internationally inspired recipes your family and friends will love. So please welcome to the show Katie Chin. Katie: Hi everyone. Passionistas: Thanks so much for being here today, Katie, we're thrilled to have you. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Katie: The one thing I'm most passionate about is honoring my mother's culinary legacy, because everything I know about life in cooking, I learned in the kitchen from her. Passionistas: Talk about how you came to that place, where you wanted to honor her legacy through food. Katie: We have to go all the way back to 1956. When my mother immigrated from China, from Guan Jo China, to Minneapolis, Minnesota of all places, she didn't speak any English. She was making 50 cents an hour as a senior. But she always loved to cook. She couldn't even find fresh ginger at the market at the time, but she improvised. She grew bok choy in our garden and somehow whipped up these gourmet Chinese stir fries. Even though our family had no money. One day, she decided to throw a luncheon for some sewing clients in the 1970s. And they were blown away by her cuisine because back in the day, they only had to chop suey each domain and they had never tasted authentic Chinese cooking. So, they encouraged her to start teaching classes to cater. And one thing led to another, she became very popular as a caterer, but bear in mind, she didn't even have a car. She had to take the bus. Okay. But her popularity continued to soar. And one day she hooked up with a socialite and the socialite wanted to open a restaurant with my mother. So, the socialite happened to be friends with the owner of the Minnesota twins and the owner of the Minnesota twins was friends with Sean Connery. What like that's crazy. So, what happened is Robert Redford was in town, directing ordinary people in Minneapolis and Sean Connery came to visit. And somebody threw a party and my mom was catering it. So, both Robert Redford and Sean Connery were at this party and I served them dumplings. Okay. I was a little girl, but I served the dump legs and my knees were buckling and I'm like, ah, anyway, Sean Connery decides to invest in my mom's restaurant too, which is unbelievable right in Minneapolis. Oh my God. And so, once word got out that Sean Connery w seven was investing in my mom's restaurant. There were lines around the block and it was quite a quite elegant restaurant. She opened more and more restaurants. Now I'm in high school at the time. And I barely saw my mom. She literally was sleeping on the cats. She worked so hard, but she opened more restaurants and more restaurants. And by the late eighties, my mother had over 30 years. So general mills, uh, bought my mother's company and made her head of this division, this restaurant division at general mills. Now bear in mind. My mother never even went to high school and had been making 50 cents an hour as a senior. So, it was a remarkable story, really, for anybody, any woman, any minority, but really anyone with a dream, but she was also quite philanthropic. She served on several boards. She was on the board of the Minnesota Vikings and the Minnesota twins, but had never even been to a game. She spoke on the steps of the white house. She met the Clintons, just unbelievable, but she became this huge star. Anyway, she ended up buying it back cause she didn't like what they were doing to her food. And she went on to create a chain with over 50 locations, which still exists. Our family's not affiliated anymore, but it's called Leeann Chin. Okay. So, I grew up working in my mom's catering business in our tiny basement in Minnesota. And while all the other kids for ice skating or at the mall, we were frying chicken pieces gritting our teeth, but we knew something magical was happening to her. I just vowed to never work in the food business and to get the hell out of Minnesota, it was freezing cold, no offense to Norwegians or Swedish people, but there was, it was not diverse at the time. We were like the only Asian family for miles. So anyway, I left, I went to school in Boston. You guys, I went to BU actually, and then I moved to LA and worked in the entertainment industry for 14 years. And I was just so busy if I had forgotten how to cook. And while I thought I was making my mother proud. I had actually done the opposite because I had forgotten how to cook. And I think because in so many Chinese American families, you're supposed to become a doctor, a lawyer, a professor, and all my siblings are those things. And I did something that was so radically different. It forced me to work even harder to be successful. So, they wouldn't worry about me, even though they had no idea what I did. So anyway, long story short, I decided to throw a dinner party one night. I kept calling my mom asking her questions because I forgot how to do everything. And she was like, this is ridiculous. So, she got on a plane with frozen lemon chicken. She showed up on my doorstep. She cooked the whole meal, but she let everyone think that I had cooked it because she was just that kind of mom. So meanwhile, she opened my fridge and found only champagne and yogurt, completely mortified. And she set out to teach me how to cook again. So, she kept flying to LA and teaching me and my friends how to cook. And they're like, oh my God, you guys make this look so easy. You should do a book together. And I was like, we should do a book together. So, I got us a book deal, but then I realized that I was lacking. Passion and meaning in my life, even though my career was very good to me, I was in a very unhappy marriage. So, I just decided to completely change my life. And I quit my job as a senior VP at Fox. And I left my husband on the same month. Now I don't recommend doing all those things in one month's time, but first of all, I didn't have kids. So, I felt like I had the luxury to do so. And I also felt like, if not now, then when like life is social. So, I just did a complete 180 and she and I came together. We did the book together. We had a catering business together called double happiness. We had a show on PBS together called double happiness as well, which was a mother daughter cultural cooking show, but she hated to be on TV. So, she really focused on the cooking. So, I had to do most of the talking, so I'd go. Okay. So, if you don't have Asian hot sauce, you could use Mexican hot sauce right now and she'd go. No. So she was hilarious without trying to be hilarious. She was totally the straight man, but so funny and charming because of it. But anyway, we had lots of wonderful culinary adventures together, going to China for the food network and going on the today show a bunch of times it was truly a gift because finally coming together as adults, she opened up to me and told me a lot about her life in China and all of the hardships she endured. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your entertainment industry career. What did you do? And did you have a passion for it in the beginning? Katie: I just fell into it. I wanted to move to New York city and work in advertising like that girl. That was my dream. I wanted to be Marla Thomas, but what happened is I was, my boyfriend went to school at brown. So, I was working at a radio station and Providence, and the Warner brothers rep walked in. And we started chatting and being from Minneapolis, I didn't know anything about the entertainment industry. So, he was like, oh yeah, I represent Warner brothers and bubble lives. Like, why don't you comment for me? And I'm like, what people get paid to do that. So anyway, I was the on-campus rep for Warner brothers, and then I moved to LA and I do, you know, Nancy Kirkpatrick, Amy? Yes. Yeah. So Nancy was my boss when I worked for Warner brothers in college. And then she got me a job at a PR firm called climate Feldman, which became climate and white. So, I worked in PR when I first moved to LA, but then I realized PR wasn't really, for me, I'm more of a promotions person. So, then I went to Orion and I was a consultant, but I didn't drive to take [the bus and cabs and I lied and said, I could drive. You do what you gotta do. So then from a Ryan, I went to Disney. And then I was a manager of national promotions, and then I set up a college internship program, much like the one I participated in at Warner brothers for Disney flew all over the country, hiring interns. What a great job when you're like 25. Oh my God. So much fun. Then I got promoted and worked in national promotions at Disney. Then I left and went to Fox when I was a director of TV promotions. There. Then I got promoted. Well, see, I never wanted to stay in it. I didn't ever want, I didn't want it to move to New York. I didn't want to stay in LA and I'm on my third marriage. My life is an open book. I'm just going to tell you everything. So it was, I got married when I was 23, which is really idiotic and then he was gay. So we got divorced obviously. And so, I was going to move to New York, but I was just kept getting promoted and I'm like, why don't I keep getting promoted anyway. So, then I became a senior VP of synergy. When I was like 29. And then I ended up moving back to Minneapolis to run my mom's company for a year, which was a mistake. I won't go into that, but I came back and where she worked at universal rose had a promotion there. Then I went to an agency. Then I went back to Fox and that was my last studio job. Passionistas: So you must've been ready for a change when that moment came in your life, because those are exhausting jobs. None of those jobs are nine to five jobs. Katie: It's one thing. If you're very passionate about your career and you have this incredible, uh, stress in your life, but when you feel dispassionate and there's that incredible stress, it really is harmful to your body, your mind, body, and soul. And I felt like it just wasn't worth it. It just, it was very hard to face the studio. Exactly. Chairman of the studio, the unbelievable pressure that you're under people don't realize you guys do. And that feeling in your pit of your stomach. So, I was just like, I just saw this as like a chance to escape. I really felt like I needed to escape my life, but being like the good Chinese American girl, that I was, everything looked perfect on paper that was really living a lie because I wasn't feeling passionate about my career, but then also was not happy in my marriage. So, I just feel so lucky that a lot of people don't have the luxury to escape their circumstances. Passionistas: Let's talk about that moment where your mom flew out and helped you with the party. What did that mean to you that she did that. And how did that really start to trigger this renewed interest in food? Katie: I was surprised that she did it, but then she was so amazing in that way. Like it was amusing to me that she did it and I of course wanted to bring her out into the dining room. She was, and it was about saving face is very important in Chinese culture. And I think she was just like, I don't want them to think that you can't cook. So, you just do that. I would have stay back here. A lot of Chinese people express their love in interesting ways, non-Western way. If I did well in school, she would make a special dish. You would get a whole steamed fish and black bean sauce. If I came home with all BS, I get pork. Tell me if I got a promotion at work, she would, her secretary would send me a product purse typed by the secretary to Katie, from mom. Congratulations. It was no love. Proud of you. Love you anything. So very subtle actions of love. So ,coming out to do that was an expression of love. My renewed interest in cooking really came more from at first it was my business acumen because my friends were reacting to this. You guys are such a cute team. You make such a great team. You two together, you could really do some great stuff together. You should do a book. You know what I'm saying? I started to see a mother daughter culinary brand. That's the first thing I saw it, wasn't conscious to me. Wow. I can really now get to know my mom. I was like, Ooh, this is cool. This is like a giant big mound of putty and I'm going to shape it and I'm going to build this brand. It's going to be great. So, in the beginning, I wasn't really that into the food part. I was like front of the house. I'm going to get us gigs on TV. I'm going to develop a series. And so what ended up happening is my mother was doing most of the work and I was the front man. And so, this went on for a while and my mother was very wise and she, after we had our catering business for a couple of years, she announced that she was going to Europe with her friend, Denise for three months. But we had all these catering gigs lined up and I was like, what? Huh? What are you talking about about it? So, she left me to my own devices cause she knew it was the only way I was gonna. So, I figured it out and I added some things. Like I modernize some of the recipes and then she came back with, she didn't like it because I changed a couple of things that we got it. We only had two fights because she passed away. About 13 years ago. One was, I changed an at a mommy recipe and I used to Haney instead of peanut butter, she got mad and drove away. Very passive, aggressive. Didn't really say anything. She's like Chinese peanut butter always best gets in the car. Yeah. Another time right before we went on the today show for the first time with Ann Curry for Chinese New Year. So, it's customary to serve a whole fish to symbolize abundance because the word for abundance in Chinese is in hominine abundance means fishermen's abundance, but also a whole chicken with the beak and the tail, the head in the beacon, the tail to symbolize unity, family unity, and a favorable started finish. So, my moms, you have to have a whole chicken on the set. Mother, we cannot show a whole chicken with the head and the feed and everything on national television. And then she, we were staying with my sister at San Francisco and I'll never forget. She slammed… my mother never slammed the door. Like she was just raised in such a way that she wasn't allowed to scream or be aggressive or violent in any way, but she slammed the door. I slammed the door. And then my sister Jeanie was like, and I know what she was thinking. She was like, how could I have raised such a white daughter, such a why low. That means that white ghost, that's a derogatory term against white people. How could I have raised such a white daughter in her mind? Sure. That's what she was thinking. Anyway, I went out because we got on the conference call with the producer and I was like, I'm just wondering, we typically show a whole chicken and the producers. We cannot show that on national television. And I wasn't like, yeah, I won or anything like that. I was like, in my heart, I knew I was right. So, it was just interesting dynamic, but it was for the most part, very respectful. And like I said, the biggest gift is in those quiet moments when we were cooking together, she would open up and talk to me more like a friend. And tell me about my God being in an arranged marriage, meeting your husband 10 minutes before you get married to them. So many crazy things that happened to her. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your first television show together. Katie: It was called "Double Happiness." it was on PBS and because of my marketing background, I, and I just wanted to, you know, say this because a lot of people, particularly when they decide to begin, become an entrepreneur and to pivot and try something new, it's scary. They don't know how they don't know what to do, where to turn. And I think you just have to grow some balls sometimes and just ask for things. And then what's the worst thing that can happen. A person rejects you or they say, no, you're not going to die. You just move on. So, I was like trying to figure out the best distribution channel for us. We had pitched Food Network, they passed. They didn't think a Asian show would fly, which I think is ridiculous. But I was like, PBS seems like. Starting point. So, I just did some research and I found a producer based in Hawaii on the internet. She had produced a Roy Yamaguchi show and Charlie Trotter show. So, I just found her number and called her up and I was like, Hey, my name's Katie. My mom was his famous chef owned a restaurant chain. I'm coming to Hawaii. Do you want to get together for coffee? And she said, yes. So sometimes it's as simple as that. So, I think sometimes just the stars aligned. Oprah said luck is when preparation meets opportunity. And I think it is so true. So anyway, she had gotten Kikkoman to fund Roy Yamaguchi. She still had a contact there. So, they happened to have money left in their budget. They needed to spend. So, this rarely happens in a life, but we basically made the phone call and had the funding. In two weeks. We worked closely together. We shot 13 episodes in 10 days, time in Hawaii, which was fantastic. And it was challenging because I had never done TV before. And as, as you guys know, like getting up and doing a PowerPoint presentation for a bunch of executives is one. Being on television with your mom who doesn't like to say anything is another thing. I actually tricked my mom and forced her to train with my acting coach, but I told her we were going to get manicures and we pulled up to his house. She's like, where are we? I go, we're not getting manicures. We're trading with my, I take killers. So, we go and he was adorable. My acting coach was a lot like Billy crystal, like his personality, very warm and loving and so funny, but we're working with him and he's like, okay, Leanne. So, you know, what you're making right now is three ingredients. So, you can't keep your head down. It's a pretty easy recipe. You got to look up, you got to look up. Okay. And then as I've mentioned, my mother never really touched me or said, I love you. We just, she wasn't raised to hug. So, at the end of our first trial segment, he was like, yeah, got to put your arm around your daughter. At the end of the sec, she looked at me, she goes, do I have it? It was challenging for me and learning how to do TV. Isn't really something you can practice. You can try, you can work with a media coach, particularly live TV. You can't get better at it unless you're actually doing it. So, I'll say it was hard in the beginning and then we had a blast doing it. And honestly, cause I'm working on the solo show. I hadn't looked at any of the footage because it's just too painful. So, I'm planning to incorporate some of it. I've been watching some of the clips. This was years ago. We did this in 2004. It's been many years, but it's very difficult to watch and not get emotional. Passionistas: [We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Katie Chin. Check out her blog filled with delicious recipes and get a copy of her latest book "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" at chefkatiechin.com. And look for Katie during the 2021 Passionistas Project Women's Equality Summit being held virtually on August 20th through August 22nd. Katie is taking part in the AAPI panel called Kitchen Table Talk and the AAPI Community on Sunday, August 22nd at 2:00 PM. Pacific 5:00 PM Eastern. Later that evening, we will present The Passionistas Persist Awards to Margaret Cho and Dr. Jane Goodall. Our producing partner, Selena Luna will have an intimate conversation with Margaret Cho and we'll chat with our hero, Dr. Jane Goodall. For details, go to ThePassionistasProject.com/2021summit. Now here's more of our interview with Katie. You've written five cookbooks. So, tell us a little bit about where you draw inspiration from when you're writing a cookbook and what that process is like. Katie: The first book I did with my mom and all honesty. She did most of it because of my, I told you I was still actually working at box and then she had passed away. So, I had to really not rely on her platform or her name. And so, the next book I did was 300 best rice cooker recipes. And I had to test 300 recipes in different rice cookers. So, I had all these different testers coming in and out. What I draw my inspiration from travel. Cause I've been fortunate. I've traveled to many different countries. Most of my friends happen to be children of immigrants. I think we just birds of a feather. So, I've been so privy to so many wonderful meals cooked for me by my friend's parents. And eating out just pre COVID, obviously, and also pre- I have 13 year old twins now, but so I didn't eat out a lot when they were younger and LA were so, you know, fortunate, cause there's so many awesome restaurants and such a diversity of exciting food and so many different mashups happening. I just try to draw inspiration mainly from my friends and their parents. Also, what I see on TV and I just try. Also, as a mom more recently. So, my most recent cookbook, the Global Flavors cookbook, I think because kids have grown up watching the Food Network, watching Top Chef, making food on TikTok, their parents being able to travel, being able to take their kids to foreign countries. I think today's families in the US have a much more open and sophisticated palette than our generation. And whereas back in the day, if you went to a mini mall, oftentimes you just find pizza and donuts. Now you're likely to find Pokemon or an empanada shop. I just felt like people wanted a resource to replicate some of those flavors at home in an easy way, not requiring a million trips to an ethnic market using their everyday pots and pants. So, I'm always, I love to eat. I'm here in Vegas right now. Passionistas: You did a special for the Food Network and then you traveled to China with your mom. Can you tell us about that experience and what was it like going there with her and experiencing that? Katie: It was really awesome to be able to go back to not only been to China a couple of times, but wow. To meet her family and because of the cultural revolution, you know, she didn't see her family for 30 years. So, I can't speak Chinese, which made it challenging obviously. And they would just start laughing at me and I know enough to say hello, how are you? Nice to meet you. But they would just point at me and laugh at me, but this is one of the most memorable parts of the trip. So, we were tending to celebrate my mother's birthday at her brother's apartment and her family in particular. And I think this is quite common in China. The purpose of sitting down to eat is to eat, not to speak. Like, you're not like having conversations. You're just eating the point is to eat, not to make like chat. So, the producer who happened to be Chinese American, she was like, okay. And there's like a whole pig. They're like, it's like a big, huge banquet of food. And there's probably 14 of us around the table. She said, it's really important that when the cameras start rolling, but you guys are really gregarious talking about the food, cooking your glasses. So, I go over to my mom. I'm like, mom, they want us to sip of a, I go, can you tell them to do that? And she goes, oh, they're not going to do that. I was like, okay. So, I go back to the producer. I'm like, you really not are equipped. They're not capable of doing that. She was like, okay, that's fine. But if they can just look excited and clink their glasses without talking, you do the toast, they click their glasses and then they dig into the food gregarious. I'm like, okay, I think they can handle it. My mom tells them that. Between how to sign. I'm like, okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're here to celebrate somebody translating. And then I do the toast and then they all sit there like this. Cause you can you imagine how bizarre and foreign all these cameras are rolling. And they're just like that. So that was pretty funny. Then we went to the world's largest floating Dim Sum restaurant it's called Jumbo in Hong Kong. And we're back in the kitchen with the dumpling master. He's teaching me how to make the delicate fold on the hard gal in the kitchen was rolling. He's teaching me, my mom, mom says, why are you so slow? But it was always out of love. That was like, thanks mom, but so wonderful. Full to be there with her. And also, again, just being there, she told me a story while we were there. That after world war II, the Japanese mafia were still threatening. A lot of the neighborhoods there that if they didn't get, get paid off, they would bomb different communities. So, my mother's father owned a grocery store. She was 12 at the time and my mother was a tomboy. So, she would deliver 50 pound bags of rice in the back of her bike. She was really a master of the Abacus. So, she had all these skills, but because she was like a tomboy, she had the least value. So the Japanese threatened to bomb and I guess her family and a bunch of the neighbors decided to leave just in case they bombed, but they didn't tell my mom. So, my mom came home from school and realized everyone had evacuated except for a couple of the employees. And I said, oh, the family decided to go to another village in case the Japanese bomb. And she realized in that moment that she had been left behind to die, but they needed somebody to stay behind just in case they didn't. So, she was there, she told me, eating dinner with the employees by candlelight she'd play Mahjong with them. And the day she would restock the inventory of the canned goods, things like that. And then three weeks later, her family came back, but they didn't even acknowledge what happened. She woke up and she said, her mom just said, get your other sisters ready for school again. So, she did that. But in that moment, she realized her life had no value in the family. And I think that's what really motivated her to work hard, to not look back to overcome. And so, her way, her survival system was all about push your feelings down, move forward and be efficient. So, we all inherited a bit of that, but through therapy, my brothers and sisters,because that's not healthy either, but she did say because my father was also emotionally abusive. If your daddy had been a supportive husband, I probably would never have done all these, all of these things because she was raised to be a contented housewife and just cook and clean and raise children. But I think that's just who she was as well. Like glass half full. I'm just gonna look at this as a gift, like in a way I would never have done all of this. He was the person that he was. Passionistas: What did you personally take away from hearing that story? Did it affect you moving forward? Katie: I think I had a lot more, I think respect for my mother, even though I was a full adult by that time, I think I, I had to grow up a little bit too, instead of relying on her, to do everything, spending so much time with her during this period and learning about that. Cause she was a person that never complained. She just never complained about it. And she rarely had a bad thing to say about people, too. I think she really taught me also coming out of the entertainment industry, the gossipy and complainy, it's both those things. So, I think it really helped me to understand her a little bit more. Like when I got divorced second time, you know, she picked me up from the airport, you know, and I was crying and she was like, you know, you should really not cry so much. It's inefficient. I was like inefficient, but I realized she couldn't help. It that's, she would never have survived unless she had that attitude. So, I try to have some compassion for that, but also important for me to break the cycle for my own children, because I don't want my daughter to think it's okay to go around life, not crying cause it's inefficient. Right? The not complaining part. That's something I'm really trying to it's not doing successfully that way. Passionistas: So speaking of your, your children and especially your daughter, you've carried on the tradition of filming, cooking shows with relatives. So, tell us about what you did during the pandemic with your daughter. Katie: So I have a catering business called Wok Star Catering, and I obviously had to pivot and we have a home in Lake Arrowhead. So, we decided to skip town for about seven months. So, when it started, I was so bored cause I had to get bored easily. I just thought, oh, why don't we do a live streaming cooking show? I had done a few here and there with some friends. I mean, she's pretty, gung-ho about things, so she's okay. And it just started out something to do and something to get some friends involved and have guests on the show via Zoom. And so, we started doing it three times a week, and then we got sponsors. Then we got all these people interested in being on the show and it became a thing and we have a pretty loyal following and we have friends helping us out, like all him straight. And my brother now is actually part of the crew, too. So, it just became so fun for her and I did it to do together. And what was so beautiful for me was to watch her evolution being on camera because she's a dancer. So, she's used to performing, but in the beginning, she was pretty shy and then she just, I don't know, large and in charge and. My husband just pointed out in the show with your mom, she would criticize you and correct you the whole show. And now my daughter does that to me. So, I just can't get your break. I get it. I got it for both EDS because Beck is very like type a, I think she'll be a producer. Not necessarily like on-camera talent. She's just very, don't forget to do this, mommy. And don't forget to do that. Mommy, you didn't add the soy sauce. Talk about the giveaways. It's been really fun because she now takes charge. Like I intentionally try to remember during the show to just turn it over to her, Becca, take it away, tell everybody what to do next. And I also think this generation of kids doing TikTok and growing up, being on YouTube, they're not as self-conscious about being on camera has been really great. And she has all these fans, like people just want to see Baca. This complete stranger was like the nibbler, Becca is the nibbler. Cause she's always taking bites of food. She doesn't realize she's doing it. This has become a thing, hashtag the nibbler. And we actually have merchandise that says Hashi, the nibbler that we're selling and also a Becca rocks. That's been just so really a lot of fun and adorable to do. And then since then she joins me when I do these monthly TV segments for bloom TV, for national pediatric cancer. So, we cook along with a pediatric cancer warrior along with the host of the show. And also trying to teach her about philanthropy [and it's just a great way to do it. And also to build her confidence. Passionistas: Do you think you have a particular trait that has helped you succeed? Katie: My friends have said this. I do think I have.  like, I, I really try to see the good in people and I really try to have fun. And I think that what has really been helpful to me are my friendships with other women. And the network of women that I felt because a favorite quote of mine is for every successful female entrepreneur entrepreneurs, there's five other successful female entrepreneurs that have her back. And I think that there's a stereotype of successful women being bitches and too aggressive. And I've found that to be not the case, maybe once in a blue moon, but most of the women that I encounter that are entrepreneurs or even in my career, really just try to help each other out. So ,during COVID, what happened is a friend of mine and I, she runs a PR firm. We decided to start a virtual women's game night and it was just like a handful of us. So, we were playing Taboo on Zoom, but all of a sudden this magical thing happened more and more women started to join this chat. And very few of them actually played the game. It became a drawing game, but it became this community of women in this chat, sharing advice, lifting each other. Cheerleading. Like I would see something, this might she's on the chat. She's a documentarian just saw that she was doing a fireside chat. I put it in the chat. Then everybody started to do that for each other political commentary. Where are we on my eyebrows plug? Like everything under the sun. And as a result, I can't tell you how many of these women have gone on each other's podcasts, become friends. Lifting each other up. And we finally, and so many of them hadn't actually met in person. We finally had to get together two weeks ago, you guys are going to have to join. We hired a DJ, we dance for five hours straight. It was so phenomenal, but the whole point wasn't to let's network and see what business comes of it. But it just all happened so organically in that. And I think I'm just really proud of how did that I didn't set out to, for that to happen, but it did happen and it continues to grow and it's just been so fulfilling for me. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Katie Chin. Check out her blog, filled with delicious recipes and get a copy of her latest book "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" at chefkatiechin.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passion. Sign up for our mailing list and get 10% off your first purchase. And get your tickets now for the 2021 Passionistas Project Women's Equality Summit featuring Katie Chin on the Kitchen Table Talk in the AAPI Community panel on Sunday, August 22nd [00:34:00] at 2:00 PM/pacific 5:00 PM and The Passionistas Persist Awards featuring Margaret Cho and Dr. Jane Goodall on Sunday, August 22nd at 5:00 PM/pacific 8:00 PM. Eastern. For details, go to the ThePassionistasProject.com/2021Summit. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

Show Notes  After a couple months of hiatus, I am so pleased to welcome back my friend and frequent podcast guest Terry Hershey. In today's show Terry and I discuss the mostly American need for the overuse of superlatives in our daily speech. In this episode we talk about words like “great,” and “best” and “favorite.” Why is it when asked “how you doing” we commonly fall back to the phrase, “Great. I'm doing great!” Really??? How can you be doing great—all the time. Or what about “what is your favorite movie? Huh, before Covid I went to the movies twice a week. How could I possibly have a favorite? Instead, Terry suggests that it might be better if we were to give ourselves, “The Permission to be Ordinary.” And with regard to Ordinariness Terry goes so far as to suggest that “The ordinary is the hiding place of the holy.” Wow! That is SO true. Please enjoy our conversation with my ever so insightful friend, Terry Hershey. Visit Terry at www.terryhershey.com . For more with Charlie Hedges please visit www.thenextchapter.life      

OMG!! Lisa and Sam interviewed Laurie Gelman! Yes, that Laurie Gelman! She came to chat about her newest release, Yoga Pant Nation! The ladies got her to play their favorite game, This or That and she gave them an exclusive!! What!! Sam is excited about her redone eyebrows and Lisa is considering botox but with her addictive personality she can not be left unsupervised! She shares a funny story of bras, young nurses and old lady boobs! Sam is impressed with Pink's generosity and Lisa is memorized by synchronized diving, that shit is real! She does however come up with a new Olympic sport, single synchronized diving with a signature twist of a dipsy doodle! Huh? Lisa does her best to explain her position on pickled cucumbers and cauliflower but for Sam it just seems oddly confusing! Sam however, is now on the Bennifer train and she only wants the best for her gal JLO! The interview with Laurie leaves the ladies laughing and leaves with them a new phrase 'a Saskatoon 8'! The discussion continues with talk about their upcoming vacation, food bacteria, novelty socks, Amanda Kloots, a bakery menu update, maple syrup and the Blue Jays! The I shake my heads don't exist this week as the excitement around best selling author Laurie Gelman has them flustered and forgetful! It's just a bit of ridiculous chatter but it might just make you laugh!   If you want to follow Laurie on Social Media you can find her on Instagram @lauriegelman and she is also on Facebook! Buy her books online or at any bookstore! If you love what you hear you can support the podcast by following the links below! Podbean: https://patron.podbean.com/ismhead Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/join/ishakemyhead You can also find us on: Twitter www.twitter.com/i_shakemyhead  Instagram www.instagram.com/ishakemyhead Facebook I shake my head with Lisa and Sam Tik Tok i_shakemyhead Buy our merchandise at www.ishakemyhead.threadless.com We are proud to be a part of www.podfixnetwork.com 

Chapter 22 of Genesis is called HaAhkeedat Yeetzack עֲקֵידַת יִצְחַק or the Binding of Isaac.  This chapter is so important to Jews and Christians.  For those practicing Judaism they even have daily prayers to remember this event.  Here's a link to the fantastic website for Christians called "Hebrew4Christians" that shows the actual daily prayer Jewish people pray dealing with Isaac.  Here's the link - click here to access the prayer For us Christians we definitely see that Jesus' words in John 5:39 come true in this chapter.  Isaac is a picture of Jesus.  Chapter 22 testifies of Jesus in amazing ways.  Consider …   PARALLELS BETWEEN ISAAC AND JESUS Contributed by Dr. Larry Petton on Jan 19, 2014 www.SermonCentral.com - Both fulfilled PROMISES: Isaac was the long-promised son to Abraham (Genesis 12:3) and Jesus was the long-promised Messiah and Son of God (Genesis 3:15; 13:3, John 1:1-12) - Both were the ONLY SON of their father: God said that Isaac was “Your son, your only son, whom you live…” to Abraham(Genesis 22: 2) and God also said “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased!” (Matthew 3:16, 17). - Both had a MIRACULOUS BIRTH: Isaac was born to parents who were very old - Genesis 18:13 and Jesus was born of a virgin, Mary, and conceived by the Holy Spirit - Luke 1:34-35. - Both had a conception and birth that was PRE-ANNOUNCED - Genesis 18:10 & Luke 1:30–31. - Both were NAMED before their birth - Genesis 17:19 & Matthew 1:21. - Both were MOCKED and persecuted by their own kindred - Genesis 21:9 & Mark 15:29–32. - Both were UNDESERVING of their sacrificial death - Genesis 22:2, Luke 23:41. - Both were sacrificed on a mountain chosen by God - Genesis 22:3 & Matthew 27:33. - Both were LOVED by their fathers (Genesis 22:2; Matthew 3:16, 17). - Both had a THREE-DAY experience: Isaac had a 3-day hike to Moriah and Jesus had 3 days from the cross to the grave to the resurrection. - Both WERE accompanied by TWO MEN: Isaac by two servants (Genesis 22:3) and Jesus by two thieves (Matthew 27:38) - Both carried their own WOOD: Isaac carried the wood for his own sacrifice (Genesis 22:6) and Jesus carried the crossbeam of his cross (John 19:17). - Both SUBMITTED to their father: Isaac willingly laid down his life, submitting to his father (Genesis 22:9) and Jesus submitted to his Father's will and laid down his life for our sin (Luke 22:42, Romans 5:8). - Both asked a QUESTION of their father: Isaac asked Abraham “Here is the fire and the wood, Father, but where is the lamb? (Gen. 22:7) and Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” from the cross (Matthew 27:46). - Both were BROUGHT BACK from the dead: Isaac was “brought back” figuratively (Genesis 22:12) by the faith of Abraham and Jesus rose from the dead 3 days after he was crucified (Matthew 28:6-7). For the Jewish people they see these events and hope and pray they can be faithful to the Lord every day.  No matter what the circumstances or the troubles they are in.  But, so do we as Christians pray the same thing.  In the Lord's pray we say, “Father, do not lead us into temptation.” Huh?  That's nuts. How can God lead us into situations where we will sin and lose our salvation?  That makes no sense.  In lesson 9 in the series on “The Lord's Prayer” I go into this phrase in depth.  There we see that in the Greek and in the Greek to the Hebrew, it really says, “Father, do not lead us into trials, tests, or difficulties that are too much for us to bear.”   I highly recommend you check out lesson 9 in that series.  Here's the link – click here for lesson 9 So, we too as the Jewish people, pray we will not be faced with terrible trials and troubles that we can face.  But, our hope together, is that we can keep the faith and “stay the course” as children of Abraham as Paul tells us we are in Gal.3:6-9 … Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. So come and join us as we study this amazing chapter in the first book of the Torah, the books of Moses.  Who is this guy, Rev. Ferret?  What's his background?  Why should we take time to listen to him?  Here's a link to check out his background - click here  

Four of your very favorite South Side Sox staff — Brett Ballantini, Darren Black, Tommy Barbee and Tyrone Palmer — gathered in anticipation of the sprint to Friday's 3 p.m. CT trading deadline. The White Sox haven't done anything yet, so there was plenty of time to cover most everything: Yes, this is a second straight podcast where Brett can't keep the program number straight, as this is mothership podcast 53, not 52 Eduardo Escobar, the presumably attainable White Sox trade target, is off to Milwaukee. Huh? The White Sox front office traditionally (and reasonably) detested teams agreeing to deals, then continuing to shop players in the agreement — most famously, Mike Rizzo backing out of the Edwin Jackson-Adam Dunn deal in 2010. But these White Sox trade leaks (from Sox lips to Bob Nightengale's twitter account) as a means of pressuring teams is just as annoying. The Sox have now lost Joc Pederson, Manny Machado and Escobar due to such tactics, to some degree Roundtable: The most important area of weakness to address among second base, catcher and bullpen Again, a reminder to temper expectations when it comes to the talent the White Sox can draw in; the prospects tank is empty Thought exercise: Who among Yermín Mercedes, Gavin Sheets, Zack Collins and Jake Burger would you trade for Escobar? The answers, based on the comment thread on Luke Smailes pre-deadline spec piece, will surprise/disappoint you Tommy admits that when a deal gets made across baseball without Micker Adolfo's name attached, he breathes a tiny sigh of relief Most important single player to acquire: two votes for Jonathan Schoop, two for Ian Kennedy An update on Lucas Giolito's no-hitter The Cubbie stink question again rears its ugly head, wherein Tommy teaches Brett to love again Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week the randomizer goes back to 2009 to cover one of the most highly-rated Disney Channel Original Movies ever made, a Selena Gomez/Demi Lovato dual vehicle which dared to ask the bold cinematic question, "What if a princess had to STOP being a princess for a little while kinda but not really?" And answers, "Huh, guess she can bowl." Join Tony Goldmark, Alessandra Dreyer, Morgan Funder and David Ganssle as they get relocated by the PRINCESS PROTECTION PROGRAM! Check out my guests' stuff! ALESSANDRA DREYER Twitter: https://twitter.com/badfolklorist Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/badfolklorist MORGAN FUNDER Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheWire2 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/AnIdiotsLantern DAVID GANSSLE Twitter: https://twitter.com/doggans YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/doggans And check out this show on social media! Twitter: https://twitter.com/efvdpodcast Host's Twitter: https://twitter.com/tonygoldmark Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/972385353152531 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/tonygoldmark Hear new episodes a day early by supporting this show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/tonygoldmark

Listen in as Rev. Raegan Gilliland wraps up a short series called, “Huh? Oh, yeah” in our Traditional service. This week she discusses a lesser known Bible story that has a lot to teach us. Visit Christ United online at www.cumc.com or come see us live on Sundays at 3101 Coit Road, Plano, TX. The post July 25, 2021: Huh? Oh Yeah. – Part 2 appeared first on Christ United Methodist Church.

(image source: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/830280881294883148/ by Jonathan Kuo) Host Matthew Donald and guest co-host (and Matthew's nephew!) Jacob Poloskey discuss Pyroraptor, one of the first raptors known from Europe who also aided the titan Prometheus if its name is any indication. From the Late Cretaceous, this 5-foot dromaeosaurid shares its etymology with pyromaniac, which is cool I guess. Where's the Nymphoraptor or Kleptoraptor then? Wait, kleptomaniacs steal stuff, and raptor means "thief," so would Kleptoraptor mean "thief thief?" Huh, I forgot what I was talking about. Want to further support the show? Sign up to our Patreon for exclusive bonus content at Patreon.com/MatthewDonald. Also, you can purchase Matthew Donald's dinosaur book "Megazoic" on Amazon by clicking here, its sequel "Megazoic: The Primeval Power" by clicking here, its third installment "Megazoic: The Hunted Ones" by clicking here, or its final installment "Megazoic: An Era's End" by clicking here. 

Tune in as Co-founder and CTO of Honeycomb, an observability platform, Charity Majors joins Chris to drop some knowlege bombs such as: Thinking of observability as being about the unknown unknowns: Allowing for high cardinality, high dimensionality, ad hoc queries at any point in time. Comparing instrumentation to a muscle: It's a habit that needs to be developed and fostered. Sincere continuous deployment: 15 minutes or bust. And bunches more, since y'all know you hear her name come up at least once during every other episode! Honeycomb.io (https://www.honeycomb.io/) o11ycast (https://www.heavybit.com/library/podcasts/o11ycast/) Charity's blog (charity.wtf) (https://charity.wtf/) Charity on twitter (https://twitter.com/mipsytipsy) Charity's post on cost of not doing continuous deployment (https://charity.wtf/2021/02/19/how-much-is-your-fear-costing-you/) Charity's post - The Engineer Manager Pendulum (https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum/) Transcript: CHRIS: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. And this week Steph is taking a quick break, but while she's away, I was joined by a special guest, Charity Majors. Now, folks who've been listening to the show lately will know I've been mentioning one idea or another from Charity almost every episode these days. Charity's work spans from the deeply technical through to the deeply human. And across all of it, she brings such a wealth of experience in pragmatism while consistently providing grounded, actionable advice about how we can improve all aspects of our work. And to give a bit more context for those who aren't as familiar with Charity's work, she is the co-founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which is an observability platform that we talk about more in the episode. Charity is also a prolific blogger, tweeter and speaker, and general leaver of digital breadcrumbs for the rest of us to hopefully follow. And Charity is also one of the hosts of the o11ycast podcast. That's observability, o11y podcast. And in fact, in the intro to the first o11ycast episode, Charity provides a beautiful summary of her approach to the varied work that we do. Quote, "I'm someone who's always been drawn to where the beautiful theory of computing meets the awkward, messy reality of actually trying to do things." And that quote rang so deeply true to me when I heard it and really encompassed what I see across the variety of work that Charity has shared with us. And frankly, I've been so impressed with the quality and quantity of wonderful content that Charity has shared over the years. I was really just thrilled to get the chance to sit down and talk with her directly. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Charity Majors. Thanks so much for joining us today, Charity. CHARITY: Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. CHRIS: As I've mentioned on many an episode, I've been following your work for a while now. And at this point, I would say that just about every Bike Shed episode has a reference to you and some piece of work that you have put out into the world, whether it be a tweet or a blog post, or a conference talk or something. So I'm so grateful for all the work that you put out into the world and for taking the time to chat with us today. CHARITY: That's so exciting. Yay. I feel right at home here then. [chuckles] CHRIS: Fantastic. Well, I want to dive in. I think it's sort of the core of some of the conversation that we'll be having, which is around instrumentation and observability, and observability as a newer, noveler form of how we think about this space. But to give a bit of context, I was hoping you might be able to give just the quick summary for anyone who might not be as familiar with observability as a concept and what that means now, and Honeycomb as a product and how it offers affordances around observability and pushes that envelope forward. CHARITY: Yeah, I think of the observability as being about the unknown unknowns. For a long time, all of the complexity was really bound up in the app. You had the load balancer, you had the app, and the database. And all the complexity you could just attach to a debugger and step through it if you had to. But then we kind of blew up the app, the monolith, and now it's in services scattered to the winds, and you can't just trace it. And so observability is a way of passing that context along hop by hop so that you can actually slice and dice in real-time. And the hardest problem is not usually debugging the code. It's finding out wherein the system is the code that you need to debug. And observability, if you accept my definition, which is it's about unknown unknowns, that you should be able to ask any question of your systems, understand any internal state just by observing it from the outside, well, then a lot of things proceed from that, in my opinion. Like, you need to be able to handle high cardinality, high dimensionality. You need to be able to string together a lot of these high cardinality dimensions. You need to... any kind of schema or indexing scheme in advance is verboten because you don't know what questions you're going to need to ask. And so there's a lot that flows from that definition; arbitrarily-wide structured data blobs is the source of truth, et cetera. But at its heart, it's just about the concepts, that our problems are getting harder and harder. We don't get paged to go, "Oh, that again? Oh, that again?" CHRIS: [chuckles] CHARITY: Ideally, we fix those things. But we still get paged. What the hell is this? It's about allowing engineers, empowering them in a reasonable amount of time to be in constant conversation with that code that's out there in the world because most problems honestly we never get paged about. They're too subtle until they snowball, and they pick up other problems. It's like a hairball under your couch until it gets so big and so impacting that it actually does alert someone. And then you just start picking up the rock and be like, oh God, what's that? Well, we've never understood this. And that's why ops has such a reputation for masochism. [chuckles] CHRIS: Absolutely. There are so many little pieces in what you just said that really deeply resonate with me, although there is one facet of some of the way that you talk about observability that I find interesting. I'm someone who likes to cling to the perhaps unrealistic these days ideal of a monolith of what if we were to just keep everything in the same place and all the data lived together in one database, and I could have foreign keys, and consistencies, and asset compliance? CHARITY: Which you should do for as long as you possibly can. You should never impose more complexity on yourself than you absolutely need to. And I would say that it's never not better to have observability than the older paradigms of monitoring and so forth. Some of Honeycomb's biggest and best customers still use monoliths. But they still find it really valuable to be able to apply the principles. I think that it's the microservices revolution, if you will, that forced this set of changes. It was inevitable. The steps that I started talking about, like, somebody would have because the older way just became untenable when you started adopting containerization and a lot of these things that made everything suddenly a high cardinality including the number of applications you have. But it's never not better to have high cardinality tools and to be able to instrument your code for spans and tracing. Tracing is still valuable even in the monolith. CHRIS: Yeah. As I've observed and started to play around with Honeycomb, that's definitely what I've seen is I'm almost exclusively working in the context of monoliths and, like I said, clinging to them for as long as I possibly can, which isn't going to be forever. CHARITY: It's true. [chuckles] CHRIS: I recognize that truth, but already I see the value. And so Honeycomb is a platform that you've built that allows for this high cardinality, high dimensionality ad hoc queries at any point in time. And so the idea that I can come into the tool and say, "Huh, I've got a new novel problem today." I don't need to re-instrument my code. I can just ask a new question, and the system will responsively be able to answer that question, ideally. And that feels like it holds true in a monolith all the more so, like you said, in an SOA architecture. But even in my safe little playground of everything is in the same space, I still don't know how everything's working all the time if we're being honest. So being able to answer those questions feels meaningful. CHARITY: Totally. I think that one way of thinking about the SOA or microservices is that it pushes a lot of what was in the operations realm into a realm of development, and suddenly you're responsible for a lot more of the operating of your services, things like retries and backoffs, and load distribution, and thundering herds, and all these things that ops traditionally took care of. Well, now you have to think about them. So you need some ops tools, too. What I like about...of course I like everything about Honeycomb because we designed it for this problem. But it speaks in the language of variables, and endpoints, and functions, and not in the low-level language of proc IPv6 timeouts and stuff where I feel like ops has also traditionally been the translation layer between software engineers and their actual code in production. And it's time to start giving software engineers those tools in their own language. CHRIS: Yeah. I love that. And I'm very happy to have Honeycomb as part of an instrumentation stack, which actually shifts me to the next question, which as I look at Honeycomb, very quickly the first time I saw it, I was like, oh okay, this makes sense. I want this in the world. CHARITY: Oh, I like you. [laughs] Not all people are like you. CHRIS: It might have been my second or third look, but it was definitely...once I got it, I was like, oh yes, I absolutely want that. But now, the question that I have is I typically will have a collection of tools that exist in this space. And there's a weird Venn diagram overlap of well, there's logging, and there's error tracking, and there are APM performance tools, and there's metrics, dashboards. And my sense is that Honeycomb perhaps can or an observability tool more generally can subsume a bunch of those, but it's not clear to me exactly. I think I probably still want logging. I think I still want error tracking as a discreet service tool that I'm using but maybe not APM and maybe not metrics as a distinct thing. Maybe I can infer those from a tool like Honeycomb. But I'm wondering what's the current thought on that? CHARITY: Well, part of what you're seeing is just observability tooling is very new, and we haven't had time to grow up. And here I'm like, officially, we play very nicely with all other vendors, and none of us would ever try to compete or take away from each other's faces. But I do think that ultimately, logging pretty much the only real use case for it is security stuff, the security archiving, just keep every log light. It's gotten cheap enough, but it's not actually useful for debugging or understanding your system, not really. It's useful for compliance. It's useful for proving that you did something in the past. Most logs are just a pile of trash, but they can be useful trash. And I understand people's emotional want to hold onto them for a while, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with keeping some trash around for a while, while you make it...[laughs] Sorry, not to totally slam on logs, but they are trash. CHRIS: I love the analogies that we're going for. [laughs] CHARITY: But the thing about observability is I do think the kind of center of the world is these arbitrarily-wide structured data blobs from what you can infer logs, from which you can infer metrics, from which you can roll-up. So I do think that well metrics are the right first tool for understanding infrastructure. Like if you're Amazon and you're responsible for all this hardware and stuff, you should be asking yourself, is my service healthy? But if you're someone who's writing and shipping code on top of that service you care about, can my request complete? What is my user's experience? And that's observability's territory. So I think that ultimately, I do think metrics, logs, and traces all get subsumed under the observability umbrella and performance management, too, if the tools get built correctly. There will still be use cases. They will just get smaller, for logs, for standalone metrics tools. Honeycomb just launched our metrics product. Metrics is like a 30-year-old piece of technology. Prometheus and Datadog are going to be the last best metrics tools ever built. We have wrung the water out of this laundry. [chuckles ] But we aren't trying to compete with that. What we are trying to do is give people an on-ramp into Honeycomb. They've got decades' worth of stuff. They've been corralling metrics, structuring them. You rely on them. You don't want to give them up. So yeah, let's feed them in. Let's give them an overlay. And number two, the more interesting use case for me is when you're a software engineer who's writing and shipping code, you do care about did the memory usage just triple, or is the CPU completely buzzing after I shipped my last change? But there's really only like three or four of those metrics that you really care about as system metrics. The rest are mostly legacy. CHRIS: I like the idea that aspirationally, Honeycomb is moving towards a place where given sufficient input data, given this arbitrarily-wide data blob with high cardinality, et cetera, that we can infer basically all of those others from it. But also speaking to also observability is somewhat new, and so we got to build a lot of product to get there and that idea that there is perhaps a space right now where you might be bringing together a few of these tools. But if there is a future world in which I can have one of these tools that just handles everything and tells me about my code and directs me to the line of code that I incorrectly instrumented, that would be wonderful. Happy to do the work in the interim to cobble it together from the pieces. CHARITY: The place in the meantime that we're at where all of these big vendors are acquiring other vendors and trying to put together...they're like, we have three pillars. Coincidentally, we have three products to sell you. It's like, it's not good for the users because when you're...like, you're sitting in the middle here. You've got your metrics dashboard. It's telling you that there's a problem. Okay, if you can't slice and dice and figure out what it is, you have to jump over into logs and visually correlate based on the times and hope no timestamps are wrong and try and find the thing. And then, oh, okay, so you want to trace it. So you've got to copy over and try and find that in your tracing product and hope that that would get sampled in. It's not good. You can't follow the question from the beginning. I have a problem to the end. I have a solution and back. And it's not linear. You're going to be following a trail; then you're going to need to back up, then you're going to find another trail. And then you're going to want us to zoom out and see who else is impacted. And you really can't back your way into that with different products. You have to start with the arbitrarily-wide structured data blob. What does confuse me is I know that New Relic is built on this. New Relic has these. And we almost didn't start Honeycomb because we were just like, edit data, and New Relic is going to figure it out. Here we are like six years later, and they still haven't fcking figured it out. [laughs] But like Datadog, they aren't based on that arbitrarily-wide structure, so they are really...and I know that they're trying to get...all of these big vendors are trying to get to where Honeycomb sits technically faster than we can grow up and become a business. CHRIS: The race is on. CHARITY: Yeah. It's fun. CHRIS: One of the related things that I've seen you talk about a few times is the idea that instrumentation is a muscle. It's a habit that needs to be developed and fostered, and that rings very true to me. At the same time, a lot of my instrumentation work has been more in a reactive space. If we're being completely honest, something went wrong; we can't figure it out from the information that we have available, so then we go in, and we add a new logging line. We wrap the code in some way. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about that. What does that look like in practice or perhaps some examples or something? But how can we tease that apart and understand that a little bit better? Because it sounds wonderful to me. CHARITY: I think of instrumenting a lot like commenting your code. It's a way of thinking to the future and reverse engineering; what am I going to care about? What is someone else going to care about? And I really do think of commenting as just a less true version of instrumentation, honestly. It's you talking about what you think the code should be doing, but you've left production out of the loops. You don't know what the code is doing. [chuckles] But ideally, they're kind of the same muscle. It's why you're writing your code. You've just developed a monitoring thread almost in your brain. It's like, yeah, this is going to be valuable. Oh, this is going to be valuable. And so I do think that it's on vendors to make sure that we do as much for you as possible. And this, honestly, is the long winding journey to Honeycomb finding product-market fit, which took almost three and a half, four years. And for a long time, I was like, it's not magic. You have to understand your code. You have to blah, blah, blah, which is true. But also, we need to walk closer to the user. We need to make it easier. We need to do the beeline, which will initialize the event, pre-populate it with a bunch of stuff, create the framework so that all you have to do as a user is just printf now and then just stuff this in the blob, vendors making it as easy as possible, as automated as possible. We have more to do. We really should be pre-populating it with all of the language internals and all of the stuff about the environment. We'll just be glad to tap that well. But there's something that we can't do for you, which is understand what you're trying to do and what is important. Honestly, here's a story from the past. The reason that New Relic was so big, they hit the ground, and they super hockey-sticked everything was because they dovetailed with the rise of Ruby and Rails because Ruby allows for so much fcking monkey patching. Every web app looks the same. You can just be like, we assume all this crap, and so we could make it just like magic for you. You just install this library. Boom, you're off to the races. Well, try as you might, I want to say a type language like Go, you can't do that stuff with. You can't make it as magical. You have to think a lot more about how you're structuring things for better or for worse, which is why their growth slowed because those languages just aren't so popular anymore. So it's trade-offs all the way down. Yes, everybody should be an expert in forecasting the future and understanding all the subtle things that you don't know you're going to know, but you're super are going to want to know. But as you've discovered, most of your learning comes from being in the trenches, which is why it's so good for devs to be on call and be close to their code and be in this constant conversation with it because you develop a sixth sense. I can't tell you exactly why I know it's going to be a problem, but I'm just going to wrap it because I'm pretty sure it is. CHRIS: There was a tiny bit that I was hoping that you would have some very specific like, oh, you just do X, Y, and Z. I kind of knew that wasn't going to be the answer, but it also represents something that I so appreciate about your thinking and the work that you put out into the world, which is it's realistic. Sometimes you're like, you know what? There's going to be some tacit knowledge involved here. You got to put in the work. You got to learn the thing, and that's just true sometimes. And so I appreciate your willingness to be like yeah, you know what you got to do? You got to do the work. And then after that, you'll know...and so there's sort of a virtuous cycle that can happen here. There is a feature, as far as I understand it, of Honeycomb, too if I can briefly hype up your products slightly but the idea that you can observe the series of questions that another developer asks. So if they were in a debugging session, you can see like, oh, they asked this, and then they asked this, and then they filtered on that. CHARITY: It's like your Bash history but for debugging. [chuckles]. CHRIS: I want this for everything. CHARITY: Right? CHRIS: Let's have a shared hive mind of the developers on a team, both in terms of our observability tool but also just kind of everything. CHARITY: What did you do? CHRIS: Yeah, what did you do, and why? What were you thinking? I saw you went down a road there, but then you stopped and backed up, and you went a different way. That's interesting to me. CHARITY: This is why we keep trying to build things into the product that will incentivize people to write texts about what they're doing, whether it's retroactively applying tags or writing a breadcrumb to yourself. Why was this meaningful? As you're putting it in your bookmarks, why are you putting it in your bookmarks? Collaboration is just as much about collaborating with your past self and your future self as it is with the rest of your team. I don't remember why the fck I did that two years ago. I don't know. I don't know why I did that two months ago. But the more you can leave breadcrumbs for yourself and then surface that to the team, you're right; it's transformational. I wanted this so selfishly because I have never been that person on the team who loves graphs. I hate graphs. I don't think visually very well at all. I've been working with my friend, Ben Harts, off and on for like 10, 12 years now. He's always the person I've hired repeatedly. He's always the person who comes in and makes the graphs. And then I look over his shoulder, and I bookmark them. I can be up all night making the perfect dashboard. And then I'm like, great, mine. [chuckles] So there's room in the world for both of us. But the point is that not all of us should have to go through that effort. [chuckles] We should be able to learn from each other. Only one person should ever have to have to craft the perfect query, and then the rest of the team should be able to effortlessly piggyback on it. CHRIS: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I want that but for everything. I dream of a future in which that's true. CHARITY: And so much of debugging is this wandering path where you go down the wrong place, and you need to be able to zoom back to all right; where did I first know that I had a beat on it? CHRIS: There's a corollary that I see to pair programming where one of the things that I find so valuable is, what Google query do you type in when you hit that wall? When you're like, oh, this isn't working as I'm thinking, and then you type something and I'm like, whoa, wait, I wouldn't have even thought to ask that question of the internet. CHARITY: Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. CHRIS: But now you've productized that, and I love that. So thank you for building that thing in the world. CHARITY: Excellent. CHRIS: Shifting gears slightly, one of the other themes that you really pushed for in the world is the idea of continuous deployment and not like yeah, you should ship your code pretty quickly after you merge it, but true, sincere continuous deployment. CHARITY: 15 minutes or bust. CHRIS: 15 minutes of bust, test in production. There are some really wonderful if we're being honest, scary themes that you talk about. I love the ideas that you're putting out there, but they're probably the things that I look at, and I'm like, ooh, that seems like a whole thing right there. CHARITY: It assumes a lot. Let's put it that way. It assumes a lot. CHRIS: It definitely does that. I desperately want to get to that world. I want to get to the place where there's that confidence. And similarly, there's a theme that you've talked about around Friday deploy freezes and why that's not a good thing. And the empathy for humans that part's good, but maybe we're applying it in the wrong way if we say we're not allowed to deploy code on Friday. Because it's like yeah, deploying code is terrifying and scary. No, let's solve that problem. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that. How do you get there? How do you get to the place where continuous deployment is a realistic outcome for you? CHARITY: Yeah, that's a very good question. There are no easy answers, unfortunately. And the answer is always going to depend on where are you starting from? Are you starting from a clean slate? Are you starting...a lot of the advice that I give sounds like Looney Tunes to someone who's coming from enterprise because they're just like, "You don't understand the constraints that I am operating under." And I'm like, "Yeah, you're right. I'm not of your world. That probably shows." [chuckles] So I think the easiest way, though, is always when you're starting a new project that what you do on day one would be to set up your CI/CD and deploy it to prod before you've even started building. My favorite analogy to that is to like...you know the myth about Alexander the Great and his horse how when he was a little boy he would pick it up every day before he had breakfast? And so, by the time he was an adult, he could pick up his horse because he picked it up every day, and it was never hard. When you start deploying that way, it's never hard. When you're just like, okay, anytime this gets above 10 minutes, we're going to put in a couple of hours of work, and it's never hard. It's just the easiest thing in the world. And everything's easier because you get to watch what you're doing and in real-time, and you develop that muscle of I'm merging it to main. I'm going to go look at it in a couple of minutes. And you don't feel done in your gut until you've looked at it. And that's doing it on easy mode. And you can do this in a hybrid way. Even if you have like, well, I'm paying for a deploy. Nobody is saying you have to sign up for a long, painful deploy process when you got to spin up a new project. And I've seen it gain momentum. If you start something that's clearly the new way, everybody sees how fast this team is executing. Everybody wants a piece of it. And so you start learning from the way that you are able to do it in your unique environment. You're the best evangelist to the rest of your team members because you know the subtleties. You know the problems. So that's the easy answer is start fresh. [laughs] CHRIS: [laughs] That makes sense. I do, again, I appreciate the pragmatism or the realism of the way that you approach a lot of the topics. CHARITY: Another answer, though, it's just that the engineering work involved in taking a deployed pipeline down from hours, days, to 15 minutes it's just engineering work. It is just labor. It can be done. The political problems are the hard ones. I mean, in the past, sometimes our deploy probably would get up to two or three hours, and we were just like, oh God, this is not…put in the work. You just start instrumenting your pipeline, and you start looking at where the tests are taking time. And it will pay dividends every bit of time that you pay down, which is why I really see these long…our own pipelines is it's a vacuum of engineering leadership that they've allowed it to happen because there's nothing fancy about it. You just put in some work. CHRIS: Yeah, the solvability of the technical challenge feels very true, but what you're saying of it's people problems which again, that's always true of the tech stuff. CHARITY: It is people problems, but I also hate it when people are just like, oh, it's people problems. That means mysterious and unsolvable. Now, most of the time, when you see this, it's a lack of collective confidence in themselves. They see this as being as just for the elite engineers, or only ex-Googlers are allowed to do this or something. Or they go to conferences, and they hear about it, and they're just like, God, I wish I was allowed to do that, or I wish we could do this. But the thing is that engineers have more power than they realize. We build these companies. They wouldn't exist if it's not for us. We have all the power if we just choose to use it. I know that a lot of these people who I've talked to that were just like, "Oh, I wish we…" I'm like, "Have you ever lobbied for it?" And they're like, "No, I just know we could, or that's someone else's decision." I'm not going to promise you that you can get whatever you want. But I promise you that if you start speaking up if you start talking to your colleagues and being like, "Wouldn't it be nice?" And they start speaking up...if a quarter of the engineers want something in the company, it gets done. [chuckles] CHRIS: That definitely feels true. And to the topic of actually lobbying for this and having the hard conversations internally and working on the people problems, you have done, I think, a really fantastic job of providing actual benchmarks in terms of timing and what does this look like as a practice and what are the multitasks? CHARITY: It's so expensive. It's so costly to organizations. And it's the easy answer for any engineering leader to be like, "Well, we need to hire." That is the laziest answer in the world. You probably don't. You probably just need to fix your CI/CD system and then bask in the resources that you suddenly freed up. [chuckles] CHRIS: You have a wonderful blog post that really I think does such a good job of highlighting the cost that you're talking about there, the human costs for every slowdown in your deploy process, it has this downstream ramification. And having that as sort of a piece, a bargaining chip in the conversation of here's a voice that is saying a very clear thing about this cost of not doing this work, which granted, it's always trade-offs. Everything is an optimization. But here is a way to actually measure the cost of not going with this approach. And again, I appreciate you're putting that out there in the world so that the rest of us can be like, "Look, on the internet, it says so." CHARITY: [chuckles] Exactly. I'm happy to be the internet for you. But it's so true because other people in your business don't want you to suffer too, either. They don't want everything to get slow. They just aren't equipped to understand the cost of this slowness the way that engineers are. And I feel like sometimes this is...it's like we're always lamenting like, why does product get to own all the engineering cycles? Where aren't we allowed to do all this other stuff? I promise you're allowed to. You just have to make the case because the case is righteous and justified. But you have to explain to them the cost that it's incurring your organization in terms of your ability to execute and in terms of your ability to hire and retain people. You just have to explain those costs. And engineers are just like, "Well, we only say it once, right?" Well, that's not how you win arguments. You have to say it. You'll probably lose. And you say it again, and you'll probably lose. You say it a third. And you will win eventually because you control all of the creative labor of the technical organization. So just make the fcking case. [chuckles] I don't know. I make it sound simple; it's not. CHRIS: I love the sound bite of the cause is righteous, and that is the kernel of the thing here, which is like, just to be clear, this is a virtuous path that you were going down, battle for it, work towards it, absolutely. So I think a related topic here, so continuous deployment is one of those things that you want to get to and a practice that you want to evolve to. But in exploring some of your other work, one of the things that I was exposed to is the DORA metrics, which is not something that I hadn't seen before. But for anyone who's unfamiliar, the DORA metrics is a set of four key metrics to track developer and team productivity, so their deployment frequency, lead time for changes, change failure rate and the time to restore the service. And they are deeply interesting because frankly, I have for a long time felt like developer productivity was not really a quantifiable thing. CHARITY: It's not, yeah. CHRIS: Individual developer productivity I still feel like this is a bad thing. Don't do that. But team productivity these metrics actually are like oh, actually, as I look at those, those seem like the good ones. We should do that. I'm wondering, what does that look like in practice when you see that actually employed within an organization? What are the feedback loops, and how does this appear in the world? CHARITY: Yeah. We all owe a huge debt of gratitude to Jez Humble, Gene Kim, and Nicole, who worked on this for years and got this out into the world, just putting some actual research behind the stories that we were telling ourselves about productivity. And people who haven't read Accelerate...a lot of people are always asking me, do we have any stories? Do you have any research? Do you have any proof or something? I just always point to the book Accelerate. That's where it all comes from. Yeah, it's true because it's such a noisy world. When you're an engineering org, and there's just so much going on, and there's so much stuff that bugs you personally, and some of the stuff that you have true beliefs about. And it's hard to just cut through the noise. And I feel like that's the great gift of the DORA metrics. If you start focusing on one of them, you will lift your org out of poverty, and the others will get better too. And it provides just this wonderful focus point for teams that aren't sure where they stand or aren't sure how to get better because it can be so mystifying. When you're in the trenches, and you're just like, why does everything feel so hard? Why is it that we thought this would take two days, and here it is two months later, and we can't ship anything? And it feels like the more we ship, the farther behind we get. These are the beacon of hope. It's like, you pay attention to these, your lives will get better. You can dig yourself out of this ditch. That's certainly been true for the teams that I've been on. And high-performing teams, I think we all have this idea in our heads that high-performing teams are ones where the great engineers join when in fact, those great engineers could join your team, and they wouldn't get any more done than you are. Because most of our productivity is defined not by the data structures and algorithms that you know but by these social-technical systems that we swim in every day, it's the water around us. It's the friction involved in getting that code to production. If it takes the magical engineer from Google 24 hours to get their code changed out, well, they're not a member of a high-performing team either. You mentioned earlier all these people are out there who haven't experienced a world like this don't live in a world like this. And in my experience, they often lack a lot of confidence because they don't think they're that good, or they don't think that they can have nice things. And the DORA metrics that's your ticket to a better life. It's like go to college and graduate because it kicks off these virtuous feedback loops, these cascading cycles of things getting better for everyone and people getting more excited and energized. And they just don't get burned out by shipping too much code. They get burned out by not being able to ship code. And if you're a leader in any type of organization, and I don't just mean manager, I mean any type of senior engineer or manager or whatever, then it's part of your job to pay attention to these metrics, lobby for them, track them, track them on your own if you must, and try to make them better because every engineering team has two customers or two...whatever. I'm blanking on the word. But it's your customers and your engineering team. You're responsible to both of them. And I've never seen one of those sets deliriously happy and the other set miserable. They tend to rise and fall in tandem. CHRIS: I'm just nodding along for anyone in the audience who can't see what my head's doing. But I love so much all of the things that you're saying and, again, the passion and conviction that you bring to this conversation because these are amorphous, hard to pin down ideas. But I appreciate the North Star that you're setting across all of these different things that as I'm reading, I'm like yeah, that sounds true. I want that. Those things are the things that I want. But interestingly, one of the other threads that I see weaving through a lot of your work is obviously we've talked a bunch about just deeply technical topics thus far, but also a lot of your work spans across to the interpersonal. And frankly, even dividing in that way is not representative of the world because it's a Venn diagram mishmash of some days it's technical, some days it's personal, some days it's both. But one of the things that you've talked about is the engineer manager pendulum which I find super interesting. I think every engineer at some point has that question, that internal oh, do I want to go engineer track or manager track? And this distinct idea or the idea that management is a promotion and any other movement would be different, and you have wonderful things to say about that. The other thing that you've pointed out is that former managers can often make great engineers after the fact because of the earned empathy that they have now from looking at things from a slightly different angle. CHARITY: Amazing engineers. CHRIS: But I'd love to hear a little bit more of your thoughts on that because I think it's such an important space, and I've definitely previously operated under I'm an engineer, and then I guess I got to be a manager, and then I guess I don't know where I go from there, but it's this very linear path. And you shook that worldview of mine, and again, I appreciate that shaking. But yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. CHARITY: The best people that I've ever worked with have been engineers who had been managers for a while and then went back to engineering, and it's not just empathy, although there's a lot of that too. It's also a deeper understanding of the business and the reason that we do things. So much of being a powerful engineer is choosing the right work to work on so that you get a lot done very efficiently and quickly, and you don't spend a lot of time just foundering, which you've mastered, and you know the basic technical principles. And how do you get better? A lot of it is just getting better at identifying what to do and what not to do because we have to not do so much more than we can ever do in order to move forward. I wrote a blog post as a present for a friend of mine who was a director of engineering at the time, and he was suffering. He was just miserable, and he kept thinking about going back to engineering, just kind of dragging his...because he wasn't in an org where that was really celebrated or anything. When you've been there from the beginning, you built the organization; you're like a senior director and everything. It feels like a long way to fall. And I wrote that post for him. And he did end up going on to be an engineer after that. And he was so much happier. But I think he was surprised at how he didn't fall at all. He actually probably had...I think the engineers had a higher opinion of him afterwards when he was one of them again. And he still had this vaunted voice because he could speak to how the system had been there since the beginning. And he basically got to look around and look out farther than the engineers who were heads down every day and go, "This is going to bite us. I'm going to take a small team. We're going to do this forward-looking security product." I don't want to identify details, but that for me really just kind of cinched...It was like the more we can strip hierarchy out of these discussions; the healthier everyone's going to be because we're just monkey brains. And the monkey brain in our skull hates losing hierarchy, hates losing power or stance or anything. And I think that the thing that you learn after you've been a manager is a lot of it is just the wizard behind the curtain, the idea that you have more power as a manager. You have more of some types of power, and you have a lot less of other types. And you're just as constrained as the engineers but in other ways. And the path moving forward is not to dominate people or be above them but to combine your powers for good and self-sort to find a place that actually gives you the most joy. CHRIS: It's a wonderful philosophy. And actually, a thing that you said in there really stuck out to me, which was you wrote that blog post as a gift to someone, and that is such a kind thing to do. And it also, again, reflects what I see in your work overall. You're really clearly leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind you to help other folks that are traversing a similar path by questioning aspects of it. Or how do we do this well? Why is everyone sad, and why is it bad? And so again, I so appreciate all of that work that you've done. CHARITY: I think that that comes from my lifetime in the trenches of operations. [chuckles] Ops is notorious for the pain that we bring upon ourselves and try to solve. But I would just like to add a pitch out there for other ops engineers of the world and our colleagues. I was fortunate enough to rise up through the ranks in organizations that really respected operations. We always felt we ruled the roost. We felt like we were way above all the other developers. We got to say what went into production and what didn't. And I feel like ultimately...if you have to have an imbalance of power, I think that's slightly healthier than the developers ruling the roost. Ultimately, there shouldn't necessarily be any imbalance of power. But I just want to pitch it; this whole no-ops thing really got my goat for a while there because operations is just the engineering workaround delivering value to users. I think the second wave of DevOps is now about okay, software engineers; it's your turn. It's time to learn to write operable software. And so I just wanted to throw in my hat in the ring for all the ops people out there. You're just as good. You're just as good as anyone else. [chuckles] CHRIS: I mean, it's sort of a theme that I've seen in your writing of everybody's doing good, important work and breaking down hierarchy and just collaboratively moving in the same directions and trying to choose the right North Stars to aim towards. And yeah, it's all fantastic. And so with that, I think we probably reached a perfect spot to wrap up. But Charity, if folks want to keep up with more of your work online, where are the best places to find you? CHARITY: My blog post is at charity.wtf, and I'm @mipsytipsy on Twitter, and of course Honeycomb.io and our blog. CHRIS: We will include links to all of that and many of the blog posts, and other podcasts interviews that you've been on, and a bunch of just various things that I collected as I was preparing for this episode because, again, you've produced such a wealth of information on the internet that I want to point as many folks as possible towards those things. But yeah, thank you so much for taking the time. CHARITY: My pleasure. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes,; you as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Bye. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success._

From the deranged minds that brought you "Best Sitcom Dad" comes a horror scarier than "Worst 80s music video."  Join Randall, Bob and Joseph as we ponder the question, "We know who these slasher movie villains are killing but what's killing these slasher movie villains?"  Lock your backdoor, check behind that shower curtain and if you dare, open those summer electricity bill e-mails because today we're talking horror as we that answer the question, Who is the Best Slasher Movie Villain?WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR, HUH?!  WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!Reach out to us and follow us:formidableopponents@gmail.com (Contact)https://formidableopponents.buzzsprout.com/ (Website)@Fopponents (Twitter)formidable_opponents (Instagram)https://www.buymeacoffee.com/foropponentsHELLO FRESH https://hellofresh-ca.o5kg.net/c/2544961/791027/7893Code: HFAFF80Offer: $80 Discount ($50 - $20 - $10) Including Free Shipping on First Box!BLINDS.COMhttps://blinds.gnv2.net/c/2544961/1102429/9086 

What if David was malformed by violence? David's reign was secured by his constant readiness to go to war, and to have people murdered. He sat on a throne of blood – and claimed God's blessing for his positioning. Huh. To tell us your thoughts on this sermon, click through to the web posting and leave us a comment. Or, find us on social media: Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Or, email us the old-fashioned way: info@galileochurch.org. To contribute financially to the ongoing ministry of Galileo Church, find us on Venmo, Patreon, or PayPal, or just send a check to 6563 Teague Rd., Fort Worth, TX 76140.

The Best Neighbors Podcast Ep 346 "Now That's a Switchback Episode" Hey there, Neighbors! This week on BNP, we learn what a switchback is and that's the only thing we learned from Erika J's tearful confession on RHOBH. Was Tom thrown from the car or not? Like Sutton, we are not following this. Our thoughts drift to the honkin' huge holiday candle Kathy brought Kyle. We also have RHOP & Karen's Love Lunch, where we learn Mia was probably a stripper; & on RHONY, Sonja smashes an extinguisher in a fight we see in the flashback? Huh? Snoozeville.  Erin's rewatching The Sopranos in anticipation of The Many Saints of Newark & Margo rec's HBO's doc, Woodstock '99. Stay cool, Neighbors!  Thank you for listening to the Best Neighbors Podcast Be sure to Like our Facebook Page! You can subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts! We are on Twitter @bestneighbors On Instagram find us at  Best Neighbors Podcast Email us at bestneighborspodcast@gmail.com Send us a message if you would like stickers and/or a pin! Bye neighbors!

Pastor Newms: [0:11] All right we're they can hear us.   Pastor Bill: [0:13] Cool we said it's so weird.   Pastor Newms: [0:19] Although the little weekly episode thing didn't didn't show for some reason.   Pastor Bill: [0:29] The image that's weird.   Pastor Newms: [0:43] I don't remember what button it is to look at the other thing to launch there's a button I can press and it lets me edit a screen while I'm displaying a different screen. Try to see why but I don't know how to do it for some reason. Like I can't.   Pastor Bill: [1:53] With our faces live.   Pastor Newms: [1:54] Yeah or else it'll restart the countdown.   Pastor Bill: [1:57] Why was there one-and-a-half countdowns in that.   Pastor Newms: [2:02] Where did we have ready.   Pastor Bill: [2:02] You know just want to show everybody has plenty of time to show up.   Pastor Newms: [2:08] Divided we have 17 and a half thingies why was there 45 minutes of countdown Newms was playing with stuff again.   [2:20] Hey go go big or go home man.   Pastor Bill: [2:27] That is the Texas motto go big or go back to California that's just that's how we roll. It's already people have been moving here from California its rear.   Pastor Newms: [2:39] And the funny thing is like California is claiming it's not happening they're like no one's actually leaving I saw.   Pastor Bill: [2:50] People are showing up all the time from California in Texas I just moved here from California.   Pastor Newms: [2:56] I saw this news article it was like the great California migration is not actually happening and I was like. Huh that's interesting all right I don't even want to read the article because yeah. Hmm. Well it's one of those percentages let's look at percentages the number of people that are leaving really isn't that big it just feels like it's huge because.   Pastor Bill: [3:34] It's a feel the impact here. Of all the people who are coming to Texas from other states it feels like the majority of them are coming from California.   Pastor Newms: [3:49] And there's this other thing going on right now in New York it was Morgan's the CEO of Morgan Stanley I think it was released this thing about how, they are not going to continue. Employees cannot expect to make New York rates if they're not working in New York. Because during the pandemic you know a lot of people won't work from home and then a lot of people moved because companies are like we're going to go to work from home. As a benefit you know blah blah blah and now some companies are like okay it's time to come back and people are like.   [4:39] Or I don't want to and they're like okay well we're not going to pay you the same because if you're not having his argument was if you're not having to pay to live in New York why should I pay you like you live in New York. And it was like I was like hmm. Well obviously we now know why the CEO of Stanley Morgan house and the CEO of Stanley Morgan pays his employees which is bare minimum hey they can see your face now I didn't do any countdown for you they can see your face now.   Pastor Bill: [5:17] Cool I'm clean my glasses for like the last three minutes.   Pastor Newms: [5:20] It was literally like one second but I was just like hmm.   Pastor Bill: [5:28] Okay so officially welcome to the live recording of season 3 episode 37 of the Berean Manifesto; Faith, Hope, and Love for the Modern Christian if you're listening to this as a podcast that has been proved recorded, then you are invited to come join us on Sunday evenings at 6:30 p.m. Central Standard Time, most Sundays we take a Sunday off here or there from time to time but it's rare that we take a Sunday off and we would love for you to come and watch live as we broadcast, Pastor Newms and myself recording this podcast you can do that on Facebook, YouTube, and Twitch. We used to have Periscope before they went Belly Up, and hopefully Twitter will follow suite because that is a dark place with lots of hurting people that want to hurt, and so.   Pastor Newms: [6:35] It's cuz the moderation is so low the the the community guidelines allow for so much it's kind of like.   Pastor Bill: [6:43] It's bad man.   Pastor Newms: [6:44] It's kind of like super super publicized Reddit because Twitter allows pretty much anything.   Pastor Bill: [6:53] I never go onto Twitter the only stuff that shows all the Twitter from my stuff is stuff that's pushed their from other places as an automatic push I never go to Twitter to post I never go to Twitter to read I, I got disgusted by Twitter a very long time ago, and I think Matt Smith's doctor said it best when he said Twitter so.   Pastor Newms: [7:25] Which I updated my pops and one of them wrong side is an adipose.   Pastor Bill: [7:34] Barely see that yeah.   Pastor Newms: [7:35] I know I tried to install some nice lighting.   Pastor Bill: [7:39] There you go now I can see it.   Pastor Newms: [7:40] And I thought it was going to work and it doesn't and shows up really really bad in stream and then I tried to mess with it.   Pastor Bill: [7:46] You're with your red lights off I can actually see the axe now.   Pastor Newms: [7:52] Which makes no sense because the whole reason why we did it was because you couldn't see it two weeks ago.   Pastor Bill: [7:59] So what it looks like right now is that you painted the shape of an axe in vanta black 2.0 onto the desk that's what it looks like.   Pastor Newms: [8:10] Totally not the case hey you want to see how fast we get band off YouTube.   Pastor Bill: [8:16] Pretty quick if you keep swinging that around.   Pastor Newms: [8:18] Sorry I just thought about that, one of my favorite channels on YouTube actually got demonetized this week and the.   Pastor Bill: [8:27] Oh no.   Pastor Newms: [8:28] The two people that run the channel were crying effectively because.   Pastor Bill: [8:34] Such a mat such a Minefield trying to monetize your YouTube and then, these companies it data either don't make it clear enough or people just don't think to hire a lawyer to read the community guidelines to explain to them.   Pastor Newms: [8:50] Well that's.   Pastor Bill: [8:51] Isn't isn't acceptable.   Pastor Newms: [8:52] This particular show like this particular channel is so big that they actually get approval from YouTube before anything is posted, so they go through an approval approval process to post so every video they submit it, they wait and then it gets approved and that's after the editors that they have that they've hired, actually go in and put extra stuff and you know the whole nine and, so all of their videos are approved by YouTube and then someone went in, and demonetized in one day 3/4 of their backlog and they post multiple videos a day and it, they've made it their entire, you know social media is their entire career it's a it's a I don't even think their fiance's it's MRX play, MRX plays and he does streaming and she does streaming and then they have a channel together where they do stuff and they're both on Twitch and you know there, they're funny and.   [10:09] It's it's so it was so heartbreaking because I saw like the thumbnail you know they do the click bait thumbnails it's one of the things they're known for and so you're like who who's and and I was like, wait why is she crying that's not a fun clickbait thumbnail usually it's like something that's, borderline inappropriate with like a thing over it so that way it's not not inappropriate like you and you're like I um, and and they were just on their crying because, angry angry and crying and you know just everything because their entire Channel and they actually showed screenshots of it and it was like just due to do to all of them demonetised and then there'd be one that wasn't, and then all of them and then one that wasn't for some reason and it's just like. And all of them had been approved gone through the approval it's just social media and making a career out of it is rough and, you know every now and then I think about it I'm like I think I could do that I think we could I think I can get and then I see stuff like that I'm like I don't wanna, I'll stick to my day job like.   Pastor Bill: [11:30] Have the rug pulled out from underneath you like that is.   Pastor Newms: [11:34] And I know no logic behind it is the other frustrating thing you know there's no, it's like I was talking to another friend of mine who's working on a game and he's like we're going to have it's a streamer based game and I was like oh that's great and sounds great and he's like and we're going to have you know one of the aspects is you can play, music because people like to play and I was like what kind and it's like oh well it's drm-free, you know licensed and allow and you're like well, just so you know twitch keeps popping people for that still because it's close enough to a regular song that their algorithm picks it up and pops them Cyberpunk 2077 went through that where they had to, there was a setting that was like monetized or demonetized. Music and then people were still getting popped for having music and it's like so the world of social media is a Minefield to say the least, trying to make a, anything out of it you're trying to make money off of it.   Pastor Bill: [12:53] Yeah.   Pastor Newms: [12:55] Or have people find your stuff either way you know.   [13:05] Yeah and that's the other thing if your if your stuff is not mocked the monetized stuff of course gets recommended more often than the demonetized stuff so you know, anyway how was your week Pastor Bill.   Pastor Bill: [13:21] You're supposed to say about your week first otherwise I get all off track and.   Pastor Newms: [13:25] I just did a 13-minute diatribe on something completely different do I really have to.   Pastor Bill: [13:30] How was your week Pastor Newms.   [13:42] Dollar dollar hay dolor de la a $8,000 $8,000.   Pastor Newms: [13:49] See he claims it folks you all saw it and heard it something anyway that was pretty good busy I changed my office around a little bit, like I said I refresh to the behind me I installed lights that don't actually work let's count you you want to you want to play don't count.   Pastor Bill: [14:06] Let's count the screens - uno dos tres cuatro cinco.   Pastor Newms: [14:11] So so and then and then I did this.   Pastor Bill: [14:15] Go screens.   Pastor Newms: [14:17] And it just it I don't I hate it I don't like it at all.   Pastor Bill: [14:24] Is there a is there a Min because because the podcast version they can't hear what you're saying but it's the string of red lights.   Pastor Newms: [14:30] Yep.   Pastor Bill: [14:31] Over top of your pops behind you and over top of your new acts that you bought is there a lip on that shelf under that a shovel you could put it under to hide the light.   Pastor Newms: [14:41] There's not, and so it's all good it's just it's one of those things where and you know those LED lights are like seven bucks so it's not like I've blown a bunch of money on it or something it's just, frustrating when you're like this would be nice and then you put it on your like that looks terrible but yes I do now have so I have my two screens for, my personal computer and my camera in the Middle High, and then I have my main computer and then I have work screen one, which is the actual laptop which you guys can't see and then screen to and then screen 3 which you guys can see and then my whiteboard, up above it and then Tina's desk is still there because we haven't moved it yet.   [15:31] Yeah I rotate it around my pops though I like to do that every now and then, I got some of the Skyrim ones back out the the White run guard, which if you don't know cause you don't know a fun thing about him is there's a line in the game where every time you you know you talked to the guards there's random things they say write one of the things is, haven't I took an arrow to the knee, and if they say it constantly and it's just it gets to a point where like I'm going to put an arrow in your knee like you're just annoying and the pop actually has an arrow in his knee.   [16:16] And so it's like how nice so.   Pastor Bill: [16:21] Yeah so my work is good caught the season finale of Loki season one lucky finale it was fantastic no spoilers but it was visually stunning, I highly recommend everyone go see the Loki series on Disney Plus.   Pastor Newms: [16:40] That's another thing that I hate social media for but that's beside the point.   Pastor Bill: [16:44] Oh because of spoilers.   Pastor Newms: [16:45] While of the spoiler alert but while they're doing spoiler alert the tags on the bottom and the text behind them clearly spoils it and you're like it doesn't it doesn't help. You've already spoiled it for me now so I know who the bad guy is because your class played as him and then you say spoiler alert as opposed to just cosplaying as the guy and if you get it you get it but now.   Pastor Bill: [17:17] Even that you went a little farther after I just said no spoilers.   Pastor Newms: [17:17] Anyway no I didn't I didn't go any far I said there's a main bad guy what does that tell anybody there's always a main bad guy.   Pastor Bill: [17:31] Sometimes it was a main bad girl.   Pastor Newms: [17:36] I'm using the gender inclusive guy not the actual guy.   Pastor Bill: [17:41] The guy named guy guy fog to folks who blew up the tried to blow up Parliament.   Pastor Newms: [17:46] Like like I don't actually know who the guy is I just know that there is a guy I guess.   Pastor Bill: [17:55] Okay.   Pastor Newms: [17:56] But let's be honest it's Marvel so knowing there's a guy.   Pastor Bill: [18:03] Knowing the list of bad guys from Marvel doesn't really help you.   Pastor Newms: [18:06] Doesn't help you at all like and especially when you're talking about something like Loki because it's one of those where it's like who hasn't he made mad like anyone anyone.   Pastor Bill: [18:20] HPuff says you could have said that a bad y'all Roxanne on YouTube says you could have said the big bad.   Pastor Newms: [18:27] I hate the term the big bad.   Pastor Bill: [18:28] HPuff also says bad person or bad them you didn't have to say bad guy.   Pastor Newms: [18:33] I just said bad guy. I don't even yeah I said bad guy because the person I was complaining about was a guy I don't I don't even know if the character is to be honest.   Pastor Bill: [18:49] So they're coming out with Pops that are based off the Loki he series and if you don't want spoilers then don't go look up the Pops because good Lord, um but there is one Pop in particular that I want but I can't tell you which one it is because just saying the name of the Pop would be a spoiler and I don't want to spoil the adventure for anybody that is going to go watch the Loki series, but there will be a season 2 which is fantastic, the final scene you know they do to they did an extra scene at the, mid-credits on the last episode and it was a file folder and a pancake down and put a stamp and then when the stamp came off it was a red stamp that said look he will return for season 2, which was how they confirmed that there'd be a season 2.   Pastor Newms: [19:41] That's a nice way of confirming it.   Pastor Bill: [19:44] So that was fun, and let's see we had some birthdays this week my mother-in-law her husband my father-in-law my son my wife, all of their birthdays were this week so we celebrated all of that so that was fun and we had a, party yesterday where we dressed up as characters from the show Gravity Falls, and it was amazing it was so much fun I dressed up as Sous I put a big question mark in Black duct tape on my shirt and I talked in a Soos voice all day, um except for when I was on the phone with Newms I use my normal voice for that but the rest of the day when I was at the party I was using my Soos voice.   Pastor Newms: [20:39] Which I had to not get get mad at somebody but I got real mad at somebody that was at the party with you because I heard them twice call you Zeus. And I was like.   Pastor Bill: [20:57] It isnt Zeus. I can't tell you nominate my name is Soos its short for Jesus it's Soos.   Pastor Newms: [21:08] It was it was.   Pastor Bill: [21:09] What.   Pastor Newms: [21:10] It was that is a show that I really wish they had made more of, it ends well but there's always next summer like.   Pastor Bill: [21:25] Right it could have gone another summer.   Pastor Newms: [21:28] You could have easily gone back I want Dipper as an adult.   Pastor Bill: [21:31] Crammed so much into one summer like so much so yeah.   Pastor Newms: [21:38] But it was funny because the girls were watching it the girls are always watching it at some point it's kind of one of their go-to shows but they were watching it at some point, and it's really funny hearing some of the voices from other shows that the Collision house does not recommend, but comes on in about two hours and.   Pastor Bill: [22:02] On a human level we recommend them for people who have strong spiritual beliefs that allow them. To watch and interact with things like that but as a church.   Pastor Newms: [22:14] Yes we do.   Pastor Bill: [22:16] I commend those that are weak of spirit.   Pastor Newms: [22:18] Yes.   Pastor Bill: [22:19] And so are easily beset to avoid certain.   Pastor Newms: [22:23] Yes I do not recommend in any way people watch shows that are inappropriate that they cannot handle because they are spiritually not at a point where they can but.   Pastor Bill: [22:36] For those of you that.   Pastor Newms: [22:36] The rest of us.   Pastor Bill: [22:37] The podcast Pastor Newms is currently holding up a pop of Rick and Morty where Rick is a bear.   Pastor Newms: [22:45] No it's a clone.   Pastor Bill: [22:46] Well it's a he's a Teddy Rick is a wasn't that the Rick from another, another dimension.   Pastor Newms: [22:56] So I keep some of my Pops in my room Mister Poopy Butthole is one of them, HP Phoenix asked where my Mr. Poopy Butthole Pop is and he stays in my room just because it doesn't need to be behind me because there's only so many times you can say Mr. Poopy Butthole and I think we are already past the allowable times so.   [23:30] I love that show.   Pastor Bill: [23:31] Okay.   Pastor Newms: [23:31] Oh so what I was going to say about that show you mentioned the Loki ending getting moving thing so they've done something with Adult Swim we're at the end of each episode, on Adult Swim they actually do like a 45 second minute-and-a-half someone, that was instrumental in that particular episode talks about the episode so it's always the main creator, and then it's one of the writers or one of the animators or somebody else and they do like this really short and they have been so good because Rick and Morty always does the ending credit scene, but then this little extra snippet of.   [24:24] I can't believe we did this, why did we do that Dan came to us and said this is where the episode is going to end and we all went, huh how we going to get there and he went and walked out of the room so we wrote it you know so it's just it's just kind of you know it's been fun seeing some of those because you get that little bit of a not like the DS9 the other day where the extra credits came up, well me and Pastor Bill were watching it and it was like, to our behind-the-scenes we're like no it is 11:45 at night we are not watching a two hours for.   Pastor Bill: [25:10] Yeah I was like is this was this was 10 minutes cool I'm not sitting here for two hours and listen to them talk about DS9 season one.   Pastor Newms: [25:22] And I think it's an interesting thought looking at the past to now I thought that was a good analogy, of where we've come from you know DVD box sets with you know hundreds of credit hours and a thousand extra this and people are like no, I need 45 seconds at the end of every episode like and so it's interesting to see how the world has changed.   Pastor Bill: [25:50] That stuff out.   Pastor Newms: [25:52] No one wants to sit for two hours and hear you talk about it well I won't say that nobody does but.   Pastor Bill: [25:58] The only making of you know Insight whatever thing that I feel is at all the way through the whole thing is the one that came with the. Knight's Tale with Heath Ledger.   Pastor Newms: [26:17] Okay why.   Pastor Bill: [26:18] Yeah because that movie is awesome.   Pastor Newms: [26:21] I agree okay.   Pastor Bill: [26:28] Yeah it is why I don't watch any other ones anymore, anyway so now it's time for Pastor Newms favorite segments and since we're on an odd-numbered episode we pull a card from my deck and instead of the new deck that.   Pastor Newms: [26:47] Or just because.   Pastor Bill: [26:48] Lovely ladies that the holding household got for us.   Pastor Newms: [26:50] Or just because last week we did want to find you know whichever way you want to look at it all right Pod Decks let's go it's better be valid is better be valid.   Pastor Bill: [26:59] Yeah Pod Decks its products is awesome.   Pastor Newms: [27:13] No I'll be done at some point when we're dead continue.   Pastor Bill: [27:22] What are you most excited about right now and we already answered that question so we can move on, we're talking about your weekend my weekend things going okay what are we what are you most excited about right now bud. But I felt I felt Canadian for a second.   Pastor Newms: [27:45] I was that was gross I think the thing I'm most excited about is your computer coming in soon.   Pastor Bill: [27:53] They are actually building it right now yeah I got an email, this week that finally six business weeks after we ordered it who talks that way who says.   Pastor Newms: [28:04] Foreign companies.   Pastor Bill: [28:05] Business weeks anyway six business weeks after we ordered it I finally got the. Notification that they are collecting the pieces from throughout the warehouse and assembling my computer that we ordered that will go right down there on my left hand side. And stick out. Probably five six inches from where the desk ends here.   [28:46] Mr. Greg he joins us on Twitch he says I'm like I got distracted by buying and crafts.   Pastor Newms: [28:54] It just just break your wall why not.   Pastor Bill: [28:58] McCain was hang in there and.   Pastor Newms: [28:59] Hmm.   Pastor Bill: [29:02] Cinema release it all the way over here or I'm doing stuff and so I'm off to the far right no ma'am I'm you know, I'm over here ish more you know at my desk but for the purposes of this video recording I'm over here and then so that is a space for Pastor Newms to be over here on my left hand side, Chillin blow The Ekklesian House logo, which aluminum doing my hands just like kind of guessing where things are since I can't actually see the screen.   Pastor Newms: [29:35] I'm here in the logos up there see.   Pastor Bill: [29:40] There you go you are there and the logos about you.   Pastor Newms: [29:44] Not above you above me.   Pastor Bill: [29:46] No not about me what's above me is my free hugs shirt.   Pastor Newms: [29:49] No it's to the.   Pastor Bill: [29:52] This is leftish of me my left is not your luck just.   Pastor Newms: [29:56] I know that's why I went because it was just easy here, have fun - transcribing that it's over in the.   Pastor Bill: [30:05] Yeah mmm over the moon corner of your screen.   Pastor Newms: [30:10] I'm very excited about that because.   Pastor Bill: [30:15] Oh yeah we didn't really dance.   Pastor Newms: [30:16] We are going to start streaming more individually together playing games. And it's going to be fun because I have a ton of games that I've played for years or games that I've thoroughly enjoyed and you've watched part of and now we'll get to, go at it and we're going to be very careful with how we do this because. We there's a lot to get through there's ten years of games you haven't played to get through and it's going to be a minute so.   Pastor Bill: [31:01] But we're both storyline people so it's going to work out great because we're actually going to take the time on games that have storylines to get Destroyer lines instead of just blowing right past them, like you were talking about a narc, Zombies Storyline stuff and the people you've been playing with it's been all about let's build this as build this achieve this was achieve this was move on and there's so much story that, we can go back and just.   Pastor Newms: [31:28] Well and, and there were years of me being at Pizza Hut the main thing about that one is there were years that I missed and so like they've played a lot more than I have and so for them they can get to a certain point real quick and I'm like, I have stone and so it's yeah.   Pastor Bill: [31:52] HPuff says the chronicles of Pastor Bill.   [32:07] As some burping that was going on I was trying to keep it as quiet as possible.   Pastor Newms: [32:10] Don't do that don't do that it's rude.   Pastor Bill: [32:13] All right so this week oh I didn't talk about what I was excited about I'm excited about.   [32:29] I'm sure there's something.   [32:35] A new computers coming in.   Pastor Newms: [32:39] Haha stole that one try.   Pastor Bill: [32:41] 6:30 now, I've got some side project that I've that I has been rolling around in my head for a long time and I'm I've started working on that and I'm pretty excited about that I was I was, giving Gerg a run-through of, what the main outline of the story is and he was like dude you sound like somebody who saw a movie or discovered a new show and you really excited to tell me about it because you think I should watch it and I'm like what kind of am, and and as you know it's a story I'm working on but it's a science fiction thing and I'll be using a pseudonym and, instead of putting the name my name on it it'll be a pseudonym that I won't share here because I want to keep those separate.   Pastor Newms: [33:28] That would kind of defeat the purpose of having a.   Pastor Bill: [33:32] Of the purpose of having a pseudonym so I won't tell you anything about the story or what messaging is going to be because that would defeat the purpose. I'm pretty excited about that and hopefully that will.   [33:51] Yeah I don't make any money so I'm hoping that'll I can make some money because I've tried applying to jobs, lots and lots and lots of jobs and getting lots and lots and lots of ghost things and lots of rejections and. For interviews I've had over the last six years. Two of them were legitimate and I still didn't get the job and the rest of them were those, yeah we're calling ourselves a marketing company but we really just want you to go stand in a retail store and harass people to try to get them to buy our products.   Pastor Newms: [34:40] Which still doesn't help because you can't stand for any amount of time which is the.   Pastor Bill: [34:46] Exact I need a sitting job I need an office job I need something I can because I can't I can't when I go to the store I have to use one of those little cards I can't when I go to cook I have to use this you know chair in the kitchen, there's that and looking for a job is yeah each puff on Church says looking for work is horrible and Mr. Groggy says yes and and then there's this whole, thing that you see about jobs are posted, people apply to them and then they get rejected and then within the next week the same job gets reposted, because the government is subsidizing companies who are looking for work but if they feel that work then they won't get the subsidy anymore, and so there's this thing that companies are doing where they post a job and then reject all the applicants for not being qualified and then reposting the job with never actually intending to fill it because they're receiving major subsidies from the government, to be looking for filling positions so.   Pastor Newms: [36:05] That's no fun.   Pastor Bill: [36:06] That's no fun now I we went from excited to bummer and tonight's topic, we are yes Mr. Groggy said it we are it is called in the name we are talking about in the name and the verse that we brought that I used for the picture, for some reason I no longer have pulled up, is from a story that Pastor Newms really likes, and he can tell the story if he wants if not that's fine too it's from Acts chapter 19, and the verse is chat is verse 15 I'm going to pull it up in my CSB, I don't know something about the way the King James phrases this particular one I'm not happy with so it says the evil spirit answered them I know Jesus and I recognized Paul but who are you, and do you want to tell the story or should I just summarized from them text.   Pastor Newms: [37:16] I mean I do love this story so.   Pastor Bill: [37:19] I know you do that's why I offered to let you.   Pastor Newms: [37:22] There were these brothers and this is going to be the not the CSB version but the.   Pastor Bill: [37:28] This is gonna be the new Newmsian version.   Pastor Newms: [37:32] Version so there are these brothers and they decided that, you know they watched Paul and they watched other people casting out demons and doing Miracles and they were like man we can make some money so they were like let's do it so they go out and they start casting out some low-level demons from people and they start you know they create this business idea of hey we're going to cast out from demons and then.   [38:01] They were not using adequate, faith they were not using they were not Christians relying on Jesus they were just they had done this as a business proposition and, so they get to this particular house and they're like in the name of the, Jesus of Paul which to begin with and then they're like, you know get out and the demon in the person turns around and goes, I know Jesus, I know who that is and I even know Paul who are you and then proceeds to throw them through the door of the building they were at into the street because he was having none of it, well.   [39:03] Because I don't know if it was a male demon that was rude it just throws it right out the window and his like come again and it's such a, interesting thing to see because so often people always pull the, well I know so and so and like, you know it's one of those words like and and they did like the worst way of doing it too it's like my uncle knows a guy who runs this place and he said you know it wasn't even like a valid like you don't know the one who gives you power, you've claimed a guy that you knew cuz you heard of him who uses the power of the guy. To go do it and it's so it's a fun one because, I love seeing people get get what's coming to him and they got it right through the door so, yeah now Bill is how you the theological part about it.   Pastor Bill: [40:22] Yeah so II one of the one of the details that. Always gets me is that when they when they when they left they left beat up and naked and so it's like okay.   Pastor Newms: [40:43] How bad did you mess up.   Pastor Bill: [41:02] Okay so In the Bible gives us a name for who these people are right there called the Sons of Sceva which is interesting. I don't think that's actually their name I think that is a, I think that's an inside joke amongst the Believers of the followers of the way to call them Skiva, because this words Skiva has two meanings one of those meanings is mind reader, okay and if you think about the region where they're living in and everything that's going on in that region this this wouldn't be, a compliment or an Accolade to call someone a mind reader is basically you know you're a charlatan you're a hack you're a goof you know you're just trying to make money off of people, and the other definition is much more an insult wouldn't be an insult now but it is an insult then and the definition is left-handed.   Pastor Newms: [42:19] Which is the one that Strong's uses heavily is the there.   Pastor Bill: [42:21] Yes heavily and at the time that was a incredible insult to call someone left handed you got to think about. When you're greeting someone.   Pastor Newms: [42:37] I'll say it cuz you're nicer so you you shake hands with your right hand you eat with your right hand, toilet paper was in the didn't exist yet so God gave you a left hand so.   Pastor Bill: [42:55] So if you're left handed then you're yeah.   Pastor Newms: [43:00] Roxanne says poop shoveler.   Pastor Bill: [43:02] Poop shovel, they were poop shovelers in their handedness it just it's all kinds of evidence soul in the day nowadays someone can be left-handed that's not a big deal that's not an insult we have modern. Contrivances we have modern facilities where doesn't matter if your dominant hand his right hand or left hand but in the day to call someone ask Eva, that's an insult and so that's why I'm thinking that's not actually their name.   Pastor Newms: [43:38] Which they didn't call them Skeva even they went one step farther.   Pastor Bill: [43:42] Son of Skiva.   Pastor Newms: [43:46] You aren't even good enough to be called left-handed you are just the son of someone who was left like it's an extra level.   Pastor Bill: [43:57] Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.   Pastor Newms: [44:02] It's not even like I was having this discussion with Biggs and my mom the other day and Jesus did the same thing he got to a point, we're he was tired of just calling people Hypocrites and just started making stuff up.   Pastor Bill: [44:24] Whitewashed tomb.   Pastor Newms: [44:25] Like just so like it's almost like you know.   Pastor Bill: [44:29] You explain that was in me Jesus.   Pastor Newms: [44:31] It's getting written down and the guys like yeah, scratch that out rewrite it that one's better and they just keeps going like you know it's it's you know it's just humorous some of those aspects when you, look at them.   Pastor Bill: [44:53] For sure okay so what they did here is they went in and they said in the name, of the Jesus that Paul preaches or at least.   [45:09] That's how we translate that into our, Modern English okay now if we go back to the original and.   [45:24] We look at the words that are used there because over time we've collapsed a lot of Concepts together, and we've taken things that in the original context of a Greek sentence or the original context of a Hebrew sentence or the original context of a culture when you use a certain word it makes sense to mean a certain thing, even though it can have a dual meet right, and this is one of those words this word on Oma anoma which is 100% of the time, translated as the word as the word name, right it is translated as the word name except it doesn't just mean name, it means name it means called so nickname it means surname it means named as in you got your name changed and so now you are named, it also means Authority it also means character and so in this context when we read this, what they would have been saying is by the authority of the Jesus that Paul.   [46:49] Creatures right that is just the word name but by the authority now wait a second, Paul was out there, operating in that authority of that name he's not walking around going in the name of Jesus speak, now he is in the authority of someone who is a co-heir with Christ saying to be healed. Well Paul how do you have that ability well that's not me it's him that I'm in a relationship with and by that relationship I move in this, and so when we go back and reread certain places in scripture where it says in the name of right and so we for instance there is no other name by which man should be safe.   [47:49] What name is the translation there is name what name, the modern name Jesus the old English name Iosus the Greek Ieous, which means son of Zeus the Hebrew Yeshua the the the followers of the way began to call him, because they didn't want to call him the son of Zeus and I thought that was heretical and there's this whole divide or people were like no we have to call him that because if the Romans are walking by and they hear us calling you anything else, calling him by his real name you know calling him the Messiah then they're going to kill us so we got to use this name that they posted above him in ridicule, we had to call them that otherwise they're going to kill us and there's other people going but we don't have to call them that why don't we just call them a word that describes what he is, yes sure uh in English would be pronounced Joshua nobody calls him Joshua even though that's the way it was written several times in the scriptures. But even that's not his real name right the prophecy isn't Isaiah say they would name him Emmanuel.   [49:09] And then you get to to Luke and the angel tells Mary, to name him and then if you look in everybody will you've got the Jesus that it says is in all caps, and this is an author's note to let you know they mistranslated what was being said here out of respect for the holiness, all of the name being spoken by the angel they miss translated it into a commonly accepted nickname.   [49:46] That's not actually what the angel said.   Pastor Newms: [49:48] Yeah cuz in several in the Jewish culture a lot of, will not right Messianic Jews they won't write the full name there are a lot of people who want and then there.   Pastor Bill: [50:05] Bill never use a no because it's disrespectful.   Pastor Newms: [50:07] And then they don't they don't use they don't write all of Jehovah's name either when referring to got because it's disrespectful to write it wrong.   Pastor Bill: [50:19] Do you have to write it they will take the pain or the Krill or whatever they're using and after they've written the name of the Lord they will break it, and put it in the fire because that pin has now touched the name of God and nothing else should be written with that device and they go get a new one. Right.   Pastor Newms: [50:42] So I mean it's definitely it's definitely something that's been translated for so long as name but more it is the authority, and it's kind of like, I heard a preacher say it one time where it's like when you go in somewhere and you're like hey I need to get a loan and they're like well I don't know who you are well my father's this person okay cool here's alone you know because it's someone else's you're borrowing someone's Authority you're not borrowing their name because their name doesn't mean anything it's the.   Pastor Bill: [51:19] And you're certainly not coming with him as I've seen some preachers preaching from the pulpit in 2021, calling themselves God almighty, because they are co-heirs with Christ and equal to Christ and Christ is God and therefore they are God and all Christians are God almighty.   [51:49] All right so now we're going to turn to Matthew chapter 28 okay and.   Pastor Newms: [51:57] Short chapter.   Pastor Bill: [52:02] Chapter 28 it is kind of short chapters no.   Pastor Newms: [52:06] Usually I have to do more scrolling.   Pastor Bill: [52:11] Matthew chapter 28 we're going to start in verse 18 take my Bible off my little.   [52:21] Holder here it says Jesus came near and said to them all authority has been given to me in heaven and on Earth, go therefore and Make Disciples of all Nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you and remember I am with you always to the end of the age, now we've talked extensively about what kind of baptism Jesus was talking about here and we brought up what John talks about that John baptized with water, Jesus came to be baptized with the Holy Spirit not with water so therefore any time Jesus says go baptized he's talking about the Holy Spirit he's not talking about water, even Jesus himself never baptized anyone if you go and you look anytime, where that ism is happening around Jesus it always makes note that Jesus was off resting on the shore while the disciples were doing the baptizing, the water baptizing, and then Paul goes on to I didn't baptize anybody well maybe a couple of members of the household of Stephanas but I can't really remember if I did or not, you think if water baptism was that big of a deal Paul would remember whether or not he baptized two people in the household of Stephanas right.   [53:49] Set up but the topic of tonight is in the name, so he says that telling me the name of the father and the son of the Holy Spirit and so what do people do when they're for instance water baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father the name of the son of the name of the Holy Spirit.   [54:09] Except that's not what it says it says it's the word Authority that has them in the authority, the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, so when you're leading someone into baptism whether its water baptism or batches the holy spirit because I'm not anti, water baptism I'm very much your relationship with God is your relationship with God if you study about water baptism and you feel like that's a good outward sign for you, to show that you've turned your heart over to the Lord then absolutely you should get water baptized, so I'm not anti water baptism I'm anti requiring it as part of Salvation because then that's not salvation anymore you've now created a law, and made salvation of no effort no effect Paul's words there, so when we go back to the original Greek even he uses the same word here again, in the name of the father it's that Oma it's in the authority of the father of.   [55:29] The Son and the Holy Spirit you move in that Authority, when you're when you're baptizing someone and this case baptizing them into the Holy Spirit baptizing them into the law of the spirit which is salvation right, and Jesus came and all authority has been given to me in heaven and in Earth, there in Matthew chapter 28 verse 18 right all authority has been given to me go therefore and make disciples baptizing them in the authority of so all authority has been given to him, and did he use the word, Authority in verse 18 well.   [56:24] The the word that was used in verse 18 verse 28 that then is translated as Authority in the CSB and Power in the King James, is technically both power and authority let's just read what strong mr. strong had to say about it he says in me a sense of ability, privilege that is suggested, subjectively Force capacity competency Freedom or objectively mastery, concretely magistrate superhuman potentate token of control is delegated influence Authority jurisdiction Liberty Power right string, now the word itself is X who Sia, exousia does that sound like a an English word that you know exude.   [57:42] Exude, when you exude something it comes naturally to you because it is part of Who You Are, he says all authority has been given to me so, I exude this Authority this power this Liberty this this this right it is my strength I have competency here I have the freedom to do it, and I am using that and telling you to go out and do the same. He is empowering them not giving them a script.   [58:32] Which so many have gone and just used it as a script instead of going out and going well I'm moving the authority out. So I've seen so many people that they talk about demons demons here demons there and we just have to resist the demons and in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, okay okay you little demons running around laughing at you know but I used the name of Jesus well, you definitely spoke some words to him you definitely did. You definitely spoke some words to Modern English words.   Pastor Newms: [59:16] And and the aspect is it's not that's what so many people get so incorrect In A lot of times is it's not, the words that have the power it's the authority behind the words so yes there are people, and by the way the reason I'm chuckling for those who can actually see my face is anytime Pastor Bill wants to get, to call out people that are have different beliefs, typically goes towards the southern, what I what I would call a Southern Baptist accent, for people that are the leaders of churches in these small Podunk town where he had to grow up in and it just makes me, giggle because it is painful to hear because I've heard it too many times.   Pastor Bill: [1:00:16] Got it from the video that I watched a couple of weeks ago who was talking about what was he saying um.   [1:00:28] He was talking about they put in that evil mermaid shot down the street where you can get the devil's coffee and they took away my some restaurant that he loves they tore down the restaurant that I used to eat at so they could put it in that mermaid worshipping devil coffee shop and it is this thick Southern bat like this was the whole his whole sermon was all about they tore down, the restaurant he select to go to and put in a Starbucks and how that was evil and they shouldn't begin coffee, from that mermaid worshipping devil coffee shop.   Pastor Newms: [1:01:06] And and so what I was saying which is sadly people have that belief there are so many people who they, they focus on the wrong part of this there are people who walk in that Authority and they use the name, as well and it's, accurate because they're walking in the authority, so we're not talking about that let's be clear we're not we're not saying anyone who's ever baptized someone like this as built, or anyone who's ever preached a message like we're not trying to go that route, what we're trying to say is the important part is the authority not just the name there was a there's a couple of, vampires dick movies and shows and and I like fantasy so it happens and every now and then you.   Pastor Bill: [1:02:14] Power of Christ compels you.   Pastor Newms: [1:02:16] Does it does it when you go after when you go after someone without that power.   Pastor Bill: [1:02:30] Up like a sun is either.   Pastor Newms: [1:02:31] And in Jesus talks about it another place as well that you know you have to have, The Authority the you have to have prayed this out you have to make sure you have that spiritual gifting from God you have to you shouldn't be out just claiming Authority because you think you can when you aren't actually walking in, just claiming the authority as a good way to get yourself in trouble you can pick up a cross and shove it in a vampire's face unless you have the faith behind it it's going to eat you, and and I watching the movie will enjoy it because hypocrite.   Pastor Bill: [1:03:20] Enjoy it greatly.   Pastor Newms: [1:03:21] Get bit, and so it's just an aspect of the authority is what is so important and that's what I want to make sure is clear because sometimes Billiam is. More passionate about certain aspects and less. Cut and dry and so I want to make sure that that is clear did I compare your emotional and my logic accurately there okay.   Pastor Bill: [1:03:53] I don't know I'm apparently the emotional in that sentence so that's a new one on me.   Pastor Newms: [1:04:01] Wait wait wait excuse me.   Pastor Bill: [1:04:03] I knew you were going to let you get away with that.   Pastor Newms: [1:04:04] You're going to actually try like you're going to actually try to go you comparing me and you can go ahead and end for tonight we good we can 30.   Pastor Bill: [1:04:16] We're at 7:30 Force we're a little over so in Matthew Chapter 7, verse 21 I want to leave you guys with just a parting thought, and it is Matthew chapter 7 starting in verse 21 it says not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven don't.   Pastor Newms: [1:04:44] Hey Bill okay try try again you cut out during the actual Reading part.   Pastor Bill: [1:04:54] I haven't started reading you can you hear me now okay, no I guess I have sorry reading, so let's pick back up in verse 22 because that's when it starts getting good on that day many will say to me Lord Lord didn't we prophesy in your name drive out demons in your name and do many miracles in your name, then I will announce to them I never knew you depart from me you lawbreakers this is that same word.   [1:05:29] On Omar, can be translated as name but it can also be translated as Authority in this context when you're reading and they say in your name, if you go back and you look at the original they're saying so sad.   [1:05:53] So sand Oma soap Sonoma soap Sonoma, in your Authority in your Authority in your there was no and even if it's the word name Authority whatever there is no, didn't I do these works because we relationship, we Authority we co are it's not of that's not what they're saying they're saying that at all they're saying in your, I tried to use your not our there was no relationship there, and so that's where you see this this bright here in these people that are talking about but I did go out and I did Ministry and I and I try to make the world a better place and it yeah, be gentle these things you had no salvation you had no relationship here this is this is not how this works, and so I just want to leave you know with that parting thought and you guys can go look that up and chew on that and see how that makes you feel so, that's what I have there you have anything else you want to add my wife on uh I'm sorry Roxanne on YouTube says wow bill is in some hardcore denial about that emotional stuff.   [1:07:21] Because everybody knows me knows I'm super emotional like about everything. I like when my when my friends have birthdays and they won't let me talk about it it really gets me like right here and it hurts.   Pastor Newms: [1:07:39] Remember I can press stop without you.   Pastor Bill: [1:07:41] I send them gifts anyway even though they told me not to and I'm like get over it, that's all I have to say about that and so now we'll do a 30 second buffer 30 second buffer 30 second buffer was that a little bunny rabbit no it wasn't 30.   Pastor Newms: [1:08:00] It was it was it was a bunny rabbit.   Pastor Bill: [1:08:03] 30 second buffer.   Pastor Newms: [1:08:04] 30 second buffer.   Pastor Bill: [1:08:07] We love you have a great week.   Pastor Newms: [1:08:09] Please be safe.   Pastor Bill: [1:08:11] And until next time.

Did you know Trelane is a Q in all the spin-off books and stuff? Huh? Didja? Well Jeff knew and he's TELLIN' YA. A LOT! Is it because this episode ain't the greatest? Tune in and find out! This is the first episode of Axe Wizard's "Galactic Tome of Cosmic Thaumaturgy" Collection, suggested and voted on by our patrons! Send us an e-mail at mclassemail@gmail.com Follow us on Twitter: @MClassPodcast And/or follow our personal accounts: @_JeffPennington @henderson1983 SUPPORT US ON PATREON WITH YOUR LATINUM! - www.patreon.com/mclasspodcast

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Episode Notes Something under that water sings beautifully... and hides a DEADLY secret, waiting to bring you under! Siren's Song by Joe Solmo Buy the new "Babysitter Massacre" book! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P4ZF9LG/ Get Cool Merchandise http://store.weeklyspooky Support us on Patreon http://patreon.com/IncrediblyHandsome Support Weekly Spooky by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/weekly-spooky Contact Us/Submit a Story twitter.com/WeeklySpooky facebook.com/WeeklySpooky WeeklySpooky@gmail.com Music by Ray Mattis http://raymattispresents.bandcamp.com Produced by Daniel Wilder This episode sponsored by HenFlix.com For everything else visit WeeklySpooky.com Transcript: Jacob watched as his uncle headed towards the rustic one room cabin that sat on the riverbank. He wondered how he was supposed enjoy himself up here with his uncle. It had only been three days since his mother's funeral. A car accident took her from him, she was on her way to pick him up from a friend's house, after a night of trying out Dungeons & Dragons. The night was fun, he was all smiles until the phone rang at Keith's house and Keith's mom had to drive him home. She wouldn't explain why, but Jacob could tell by the look on her face something was wrong. They never caught the person who crossed the double yellow lines and hit his mother head-on. They fled the stolen car and the scene on foot before the police arrived and found her there. Jacob overheard the officer say that she was still alive when they arrived, but passed shortly after. They found several beer cans in the other car, and thought it might have been a drunk or teens out for a joy ride, but no one knew for sure. There was no justice, just loss. It really wasn't fair. When Uncle Greg showed up to help them with arrangements and daily household stuff, Jacob was glad. His father seemed lost, he'd just stare out the window at the driveway, like he expected his wife to pull in any minute. At times, Jacob wanted to join him, wanted to believe that it was all a mistake and his mother would be home in time for dinner and complain has his father overcooked the roast. The night after the funeral his father suggested he go to bed early, and to be honest, Jacob didn't feel like staying up. As he finished brushing his teeth, he could hear his uncle and father talking on the back deck. The window was open on the warm August night. He dragged the stool over to the window he used to use to brush his teeth so he could peek out. His father was still wearing his white shirt and tie, the latter hanging loosely to the side as his father raised a glass to his lips. He turned towards his Glen. “You know why I don't want to go back up there,” Jacob's father said after swallowing. “It would do the both of you good to get away. Come up to the river camp. It will be like old times, Jason,” Glen replied. “The boy should be up there too, get away from this place.” “Too many memories. Memories of her. You know not all the memories up there are good ones,” Jason said. They sat in silence for a minute and Jacob got bored. He climbed down and put his wooden stool away. He thought it was odd that his father told his uncle that he met mom at the cabin. When he asked for a school project, his parents had told him they met at a school dance. Jacob snapped out of his memory and looked at the river as it flowed by. So, this was where his father and mother met. He looked up and down the shore and wondered which of the houses had belonged to his mother's family. He had never met anyone from his mother's side. She told him they had all died when she was young. Before he knew it, he was standing at the water's edge. Something had drawn him there. There was something comforting about the way the water lazily passed by the large boulder near the weathered dock. He walked out onto the aged wooden planks until he reached the edge and looked down at the reflection of the sunset and mountains in the river. He stared intensely into the water, there was something there, just under the surface, but he couldn't make it out. Pastels reminiscent of Easter covered the swirling water, keeping its underwater secrets from him. He slapped a mosquito as it tried to make a meal of him. A look out on the water showed all kinds of insects swimming just above the surface of the water, and he regretted not bringing a long sleeve shirt to cover up. Jacob had never been fishing before, he wondered if he would like it. Maybe if it was a video game. Then he wouldn't have to worry about the bugs. “There you are Jake,” came Uncle Greg's voice from behind him. “Let's get all the bags inside. It's really cooling down; the browns should be out soon.” Jacob didn't know what a brown was. He assumed it was some kind of fish, or maybe an insect since there were so many of those out. He grabbed his duffel bag from the back of the truck and with a grunt lifted it over the side of the truck. It took both hands to carry it to the house with a week's worth of clothes inside it. “What's a brown?” he asked his uncle as he caught up to him, out of breath. “Trout, boy. Brown trout. It's on the menu for tonight. They love to eat those bugs there and will be right up near the surface. Easy pickin's,” Uncle Greg replied. “Eww, they eat bugs?” Jacob asked. “Sure do, it's a source of protein for them.” “Do they taste like bugs when you eat them?” asked Jacob. “Not at all, they're delicious,” his uncle replied with a laugh and put his bag down on the old worn couch. “You take the bed; I will take the couch.” Jacob looked at the bed by the window. It had a nice view of the river; he carried his bag over to the bed and plopped in on there without taking his eyes off the river. A boat was heading upriver, the steady drone of its motor almost trancelike. He watched it until it was out of site. “How come you don't have a motorboat like that, Uncle Glen?” Jacob asked. “Well honestly, I can't afford one. I am not very good with money,” Glen said laughing as he set down the cooler by the old sink. Jacob had not even seen his uncle to go back out to the truck to get the cooler. “Dad says you whizz it away, but I don't know what that means,” Jacob said. “Yeah well, when we were growing up, your father had it easier that I did making friends. I found my friend in a bottle. Y'understand?” Uncle Glen asked gathering up the fishing gear and heading towards the door. “Yeah,” Jacob said, but had no idea what his uncle was talking about. The canoe was so shaky it felt like if Jacob sneezed he would send the thing over and he'd have to swim back to the cabin. So he sat very still, white-knuckle gripping the sides of the aluminum canoe in order to prevent his imaginary catastrophe. His uncle paddled them upriver a bit to a spot he said he knew where there was a deep pool that the browns liked to hang out in. They would drift with the current from above it so the fish wouldn't hear the splashing of the oars and get spooked. Even though he was terrified of the canoe tipping, Jacob wasn't afraid of the river itself. Once again, he felt a calmness when he looked out on it. There was something familiar about the river, something comforting. It took a few minutes for him to get up the nerve to let go of one side of the canoe and reach down to the water, letting his fingers drag in the cool water. “Well, here we are,” his uncle said and slid the canoe just upstream of a fallen log to keep the watercraft in place. “You ready to catch some fish?” Jacob watched his uncle take a rod out from a tube and fit the ends together until the thing was almost as long as the canoe. He had seen rods in fishing shows before, but this one was super long and the line was brightly colored. He watched as is uncle tied a tiny little poofy thing to the end. “Here take this,” Glen said, thrusting the rod towards his nephew. Jacob reached out slowly to take the rod from his uncle, daring to rise a little from his safely seated position. As he sat back down, he felt something bump the canoe. “What was that?” he asked nervously, looking around wide-eyed. “We just brushed up against a log, nothing to worry about,” his uncle said and started to fit together another rod. “All I have are these fly-fishing rods, it's a little harder to cast, but the browns love the flies on the end,” his uncle explained and stood up in the canoe making it shake more than Jacob would have liked. Uncle Glen gave a false cast and sent the line shooting out the end upstream. Jacob watched the graceful cast. It was easy to see the bright orange line make its way back downriver to them. His uncle cast this way three more times, explaining to Jacob how it worked, but Jacob wasn't about to stand up in the boat now. He felt another bump on the canoe. This time he swore he felt something tapping on the bottom of the boat. “What is that?” Jacob asked, terrified. “There are all kinds of noises, kid. It could be anything, a branch, a turtle. Nothing to worry about either way,” Uncle Glen explained and sat back down in the canoe. He reached into the bag he brought with them and pulled out a beer. “If you were another year older, I would let you have one, but eleven is just too young to drink beer.” “That's ok. I don't want a drink,” Jacob said. “Good boy, don't want to end up like me,” His uncle answered putting down the beer to grab his paddle. “Let's move a little farther downstream and give it another go.” Jacob nodded and looked overboard as his uncle maneuvered them out into the current to take them downstream. Jacob. Jacob can you hear me. His young eyes widened as he heard the familiar voice. It couldn't be. How could he hear his mother? She was dead! He looked at his uncle to see if he heard it too, but he just guided the canoe down river. Jacob. It's your mother. Can you hear me, child? Jacob tried to swallow, but his throat went dry. The hairs on his neck stood up. This can't be happening. “Uncle Glen, I don't feel so good. Can we just go back to the cabin?” Jacob asked in a weak voice. “Huh? Oh, I guess we could. Didn't know you get seasick. Our family have been sailors for generations. Must be from your mother's side. I never met her folks. Probably grew up landlocked,” his uncle said. “Let's break down these rods first.” Another thump on the boat, this one louder. Jacob wondered if he was losing his mind. Between the thumps and hearing his mother's voice, he just wanted to go home. Get away from the crazy place. He looked out on the water, and no longer felt a calming sensation. He was terrified. Jacob. I need your help. You will help your mother, won't you? He closed his eyes tight, wishing it all away. The voice, the bumps, the trip, the accident. Everything. Why was this happening to him? Why was his mother taken from him? Was that really her voice he heard? Was it all in his head? They reached the dock without further incident. They entered the cabin without another word. Jacob went over to the bed and lay on it, facing the river. He didn't want to turn his back on it. “You want something to eat?” his uncle asked from the small table where he was sitting. “No thanks, I am not very hungry,” Jacob replied, propping his head up on his pillow to better see out the window. He wondered why he didn't see more boats out on the river, sure it was getting dark now, but still there wasn't much traffic out there. “Ok, maybe you will feel like eating in the morning. I'll make pancakes. If you need anything, just let me know, I will be having a few drinks before I turn in, I think,” his uncle replied. Jacob closed his eyes for a second, then looked back towards the water. He closed them again for longer this time, trying to fall asleep and put an end to this day. One less day he had to stay here and he could go home. He wasn't sure how long he'd slept, but when he woke it was dark out. He could hear his uncle snoring from the other side of the cabin. He sat up and looked out the window, the full moon illuminating the scene before him. He could make out the dock on the shore of the river, a ribbon of darkness flowing in the moonlight. Jacob. Jacob are you there? The voice again. How? Jacob wrapped the blanket around him. Wait. What was that? Jacob. Don't be afraid. The hair on the back of his neck stood up again as his brain processed what his eyes were seeing. A woman was coming out of the lake, wrapped in a white dress, flowing behind her. It couldn't be. Could it? “Mom?” Yes, my son. It's me. Come outside. I will explain everything. Jacob looked at his uncle, passed out sitting at the table now covered with empty cans. He would sleep through the night. He slipped out of bed, keeping the blanket wrapped around him as he made it to the door. He opened the wooden door just enough so that he could slip out, sure to close it quietly behind him. He made his way through the damp grass, keeping his eyes locked on his mother on the river's edge. He noticed a swirl of fog obscuring her legs and feet as he approached. She reached out to him, but he stopped twenty feet shy. He looked at her pale face, surrounded by her fire red hair. It didn't look wet, even though she seemingly emerged from the river. I guess anything is possible in a dream, he thought. Jacob. Why do you hesitate. Come here my son. Her voice sang in his ears, but her lips never moved. Was this a dream? “Mom? Is it really you?” he asked. It's me, Jake. Did you hear me earlier on the river? “Yes. Was that you thumping on the boat?” he asked her, pulling the blanket tighter around him. The night was colder than he first realized. Yes, I was trying to get your attention, son. I miss you and your father so much. I didn't expect to be back here so soon. “Why are you here at the river? Is the river… ?” Jacob asked. No, Jake. This is where I came from. I had to return when I was done with my life with you. It is complicated. “Are you a ghost?” Her musical laughter filled his ears. My child. That is a good question. I am not sure to be honest. I have been keeping a secret from you for years. I think it is time to tell you of your heritage, my son. But first, I need to ask you a favor… Jacob woke from his uncle shaking him. “Are you okay Jacob, it's almost nine,” his uncle asked. “Five more minutes,” Jacob grumbled rolling back over. “Okay Jake, I will get started on breakfast then,” his uncle said. “Pancakes good?” The grunt his uncle heard from the pile of blankets he took as an affirmative. Soon the smell of bacon and maple syrup assaulted Jacob's nose. He rose from the blankets and looked out at the river, remembering what his mother told him last night. It had to have been a dream, he thought. It had seemed so real though. Jacob had to admit he was really hungry, and his mouth watered when he saw breakfast on the table. He ate so many pancakes he thought he was going to burst. He wondered if there was a more perfect food. If there was, he hadn't had it, that was for sure. “Can we go fishing again tonight?” Jacob asked. “Sure. Didn't think you would want to after getting seasick last night. We can go right now if you want, just let me finish the dishes,” Uncle Glen said. “No, let's wait until tonight, it will be cooler. Teach me to cast like you did last night in the yard though. It looked fun, like a whip,” Jacob said throwing his napkin in the trash. “It's not really like a whip at all, but I will show you. Can you check on our ice situation? Do I need to run into town?” his uncle asked. Jacob opened up the cooler. “Um, it looks like we might need some for later. What happened to all the beer that was in there?” His uncle looked in the cooler. “I guess I had a few more than I thought. A trip into town it is then. Do you want to go with me or hang out here?” “I'll stay here, Uncle Glen,” Jacob replied. “I want to draw a little,” he said and went for his duffel bag. Inside was a sketchbook and pencils. He pulled them out and brought them to the table. “Suit yourself. I won't be gone long,” Uncle Glen said and headed out the door. Jacob sighed as his uncle left. Could it be true? His uncle returned hours later, it was mid afternoon and he smelled of alcohol… bad. Jacob couldn't get within ten feet of him, he reeked. “Come on boy, time to teach you to cast like a master,” his uncle said and grabbed the tubes that contained the rods they used last night. Jacob. A chill went down his spine as he stood in the yard. Was his mother really calling to him? Jacob I can't get any closer. Are we set for tonight? Jacob nodded towards the river. He didn't know if she could hear him or not, but the nod seemed to answer her question. Thank you, my son. See you at sunset. “You always just stare off into space, boy?” his uncle asked scratching his head. “You weren't watching, now pay attention…” An hour later Uncle Glen was passed out on the porch and Jacob had the rest of the night to himself. He would wake uncle when it was time to fish. Jacob managed to get his uncle up just before sunset, and get him into the canoe. He even helped paddle this time. They made their way up river even faster than the night before and passed the fallen log even earlier. “Let's try a little farther upriver,” Jacob said. “Is that okay, Uncle Glen?” “Sure boy, keep paddling, I'll get the rods ready. Jacob continued to paddle up river, pushing against the current. The sun was beginning to drop behind the mountains, similar to last night when they were out here. “Is this a good spot?” Jacob asked. “Good as any to start,” His uncle replied and threw the little anchor overboard to keep them in the spot long enough to fish it. He handed Jacob a rod and grabbed one for himself. “Go ahead and give it a cast.” Jacob hesitated. “You go first, I want to watch you cast one more time.” He felt something against the bottom of the boat. Was that a thump? Glen cast out towards the shore where there was a bend in the river, the insects swarming just above the surface. He felt something and tried to set the hook, but lost it. He stood in the canoe making it wobble until he got himself balanced. Are you ready now Jacob? “I need a little more distance,” Uncle Glen said and cast again, this time his fly landed inches from the bank. “That's the sweet spot, right there,” he said and began to strip in the line. Now, Jacob. Just like we talked about. Jacob picked up the tube that the rods came in, it was made of fiberglass, not very heavy, but it would have to do. He slid forward in the canoe slowly until he was near his uncle. “Uncle Glen?” “What is it boy? Don't you know you have to be quiet when fishing?” “This is from mom,” Jacob said and swung the tube into his uncle's gut, catching him unaware. His uncle pitched forward and the canoe began to list towards shore. “What the… did you do that for?” his uncle growled clutching his belly. Jacob answered him with another swing, this one right behind the knees, causing his uncle's legs to buckle, he fell back and went overboard. The canoe stayed upright, just like his mother promised him it would, like it was held in place. “Help me out of the damn water!” his uncle called out grabbing the side of the canoe and shaking it. Pale arms reached up from behind Glen and snaked around him. Good job, my son. He must pay for what he did to me. He was jealous of your father and I, and when I turned him down he decided if he couldn't have me no one would. First, he kidnapped me from the river onto dry land with my newborn fry, you. Then your father and Glen fought over me, like some kind of prize. When I died my soul went back to the river where my people live. Where your people live, Jacob. Jacob listened to the explanation from his mother as her face came up next to his uncles. A large flipper slapped the water as she dragged his uncle father from the canoe. We have avenged my death, my son. Now we must avenge our kidnapping from our people. Paddle back and call your father up here. Then we can be together again. Then I can teach you about your heritage. I can show you how to change your form, to live in the water, or on land. Jacob paddled away as he heard his uncle splashing behind him, crying out for help. He wouldn't look back, not after what his uncle and father had done to his mother. No wonder she was so sad all the time, he thought. He put the paddle across his lap and let the current take him back to the cabin now that the waters behind him have gone silent. Soon he would be reunited with his people, under the river, just one more wrong to right… Support Weekly Spooky - Horrors to Chill You To The Bone! by contributing to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/weekly-spooky Find out more at http://weeklyspooky.com

War! Huh! Good god, y'all, what is it good for?! Defending yourselves from an invasion of underground dinosaurs, it seems. The Wandering Three continue their defense of Willowside from mounting Xulgath forces, uncovering deadly serial killers (again) and taking on the wretched cultists. But what are the troglodytes even here for? What's their goal? Do... Do they even know? The mysteries surrounding the Siege of the Dinosaurs grow each passing day... As does the danger facing this town! Don't give up now— keep fighting! SEARCH for the terrible murderer that's been plaguing the outskirts of town! RAGE against the Xulgath army and their forces! UNCOVER the brainwashing these dinosaur people have put themselves through! All this and more in this episode of Dice Will Roll, the Gayest Pathfinder Podcast on the Planet, where we ask the Hard Questions like... What are the naming conventions of the Xulgath? https://www.dicewillroll.com/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/dicewillroll Discord: https://discord.gg/FmB567R Twitter: https://twitter.com/DiceWillRoll Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dicewillroll Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/dicewillroll/ Music by Will Savino, MusicD20 Theme Song by Sim @TheSimulacrae Proud Members of the Be Gay Roll Dice network. CONTENT WARNINGS: Serial Killers, Body Horror, Absolute Fucking Destruction Of A Poor Fucking Plush Creature, Cult Ideology, Ethnonationalism, Religious Trauma Minor Character Death --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/dice-will-roll/support

It's the mayor of Amity Island! In celebration of SHARK WEEK on Discovery and SharkFest on NatGeo, we talk with DAVID HAMILTON, whose dad played the mayor in the blockbuster shark movie JAWS. Mayor Vaughn just wanted to keep the businesses open on Amity Island, and protect the financial interests of the business owners, right? As he said: “You yell ‘Barracuda,' everybody says, ‘Huh?' You yell ‘Shark,' we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.'

Rev. Raegan Gilliland leads us through a short series called, “Huh? Oh, yeah” in our Traditional service. This week she discusses one of her more difficult days, and how our good advice is not always for everyone. Visit Christ United online at www.cumc.com or come see us live on Sundays at 3101 Coit Road, Plano, TX. The post July 18, 2021: Huh? Oh, yeah. – Part 1 appeared first on Christ United Methodist Church.

400 Episodes!! I can't believe I'm at this milestone. How exciting. In celebration, I've decided to explore the biggest lessons I've learned from doing hundreds of interviews and making 400 episodes of the show. And, of course, I couldn't just chat. I also have fabulous prizes! Listen to the episode to find out how to enter or see the transcript below for the explanation. Here are the prizes. You could get this super fun sticker of the show (just follow the podcast's IG page and DM me that you've done it). You win a copy of any of my books. Or, you could win copies of all of them (with a pdf of the one that will come out later this autumn). Subscribe to the show or listen on any podcast platform. Connect with me. https://www.instagram.com/izoldat/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/izoldat/ https://twitter.com/IzoldaT Episode transcript 400th episode [00:00:00] We're better when we're together and we're better when we're contributing. So don't wait, start, try, do, and grow. And you are going to be amazed at the things that you will uncover and achieve. If you just start where you are, but start that thing. You want to try to start it. It is crucial and key for all of us. [00:00:20] If you bring your particular creative genius out into the world. [00:00:29] Hi, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host,  izolda Trakhtenberg. On the show, you get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways you can do it. [00:00:53] If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup [00:01:00] at buymeacoffee.com/IzoldaT. And now let's get on with the show. [00:01:14] Hello, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg I'm your host and I am thrilled and honored that you have chosen to listen to the show today and spend a little time with me because I am celebrating today. This episode marks 400 episodes of this podcast. I can't believe it. [00:01:35] I'm super excited. And as promised, if you listen all the way through to the end, We're going to have fabulous prizes. I'm super excited. So here's the thing I have to say that I am. I just I'm privileged. I'm privileged to be able to interview peak performing creatives and Changemakers. These are people who are working in the social impact, creative, environmental, and [00:02:00] animal rights space. [00:02:01] To change the world. That is their mission. That's what they're trying to do. And I'm honored to bring their ideas, their thought processes, the way they do things and how they achieve what they achieve to you. It's incredible. And I'm thrilled that I've gotten a chance to be part of their lives and their process, even though it's a tiny, tiny bit. [00:02:22] But I'm so glad that they have enriched my life, my world. And of course, this podcast, when I first started the podcast, I had no thought in my head, it was going to be like this. At first, it was five minutes a day. And I'm just going to talk about creativity. And as it evolved, I realized I'm not the only one who should be talking. [00:02:40] You know what I mean? I wanted to be, I wanted to bring you information from people who are change-makers, who are peak performing innovators. Many fields and the ones that are closest to my heart are of course, creativity, art, and music, and social impact. How are they [00:03:00] making the world a better place? And of course, animal rights and environmental activism. [00:03:05] So there's, so there's such a wealth of knowledge and, and the people who I interview are incredibly gracious with their wisdom. So I'm really grateful for that. I decided that the way to celebrate these 400 episodes is actually to sort of detail out what I've learned across these 400 episodes. And so I'm going to talk to you a little bit about that. [00:03:31] And if you have questions, if you have thoughts and ideas, I'd love to hear about them. If you have any realizations about what I'm talking about while I'm talking about it. I'd love to hear about that too. And as I said, if you stay to the end fabulous prizes and fabulous, of course, is in quotes I've actually discovered and coined a new word recently. [00:03:51] I'm calling things, fabtastic, so fabulous and fantastic together, fabtastic. So you'll probably start hearing me say that a lot more [00:04:00] because that's really the glee and the joy that I feel whenever I get a chance to talk to some of these incredible change-makers. So. In order, no, that's not true. [00:04:11] Maybe in order, maybe not in order, but these are the things that I've learned after 400 episodes of the podcast. One, people are generous with their time and wisdom. They'll come on the show and let me ask them hard questions and they go deep to bring what they really believe and how they really behave. [00:04:31] They bring such a wealth of knowledge, such wisdom, and they do it incredibly generously. Number two, the causes you believe in are the ones to dedicate your life to. I believe in art and music, and I believe in saving the planet and the animals. And the more I talk about these things, the more doors open for me to do more and serve better. [00:04:54] So dedicating yourself to what you believe in. [00:05:00] We'll help you find others who believe what you believe or who at least are interested in supporting you on your journey as you support them on their. Number three, don't be afraid to innovate. Don't be afraid to solve problems in weird ways and try new stuff. [00:05:19] I've recorded this show on my phone. I've recorded while my guests dog threw up in the corner. I've recorded in busy conference rooms. I've recorded while walking my dog in the rain. We're better when we're together. Right. And we're better when we're contributing. So don't wait, start, try. Do. And grow, and you are going to be amazed at the things that you will uncover and achieve. [00:05:46] If you just start where you are, but start that, then you want to try start. It. It, it is, it is crucial and key for all of us. If you bring [00:06:00] your particular creative genius out into the. Number four. This is something I've known about myself for a long time, but it came home yet again, doing this podcast. I'm nosy. [00:06:14] I love learning about people. I love hearing what makes them tick. I love hearing what their processes are. I love helping in any way I can to get their message out. And sometimes it's really cool is that they, while. Really deep in these conversations, they'll have realizations John Kao, who was recently on the show. [00:06:32] I asked him a question about his six intelligences and how they relate to music and live on the show he went through and related them all. And he'd never done that before. So it was so amazing to be. Even a little part of his process as he realized those things and that whole idea of being nosy. I don't know if I've talked to you. [00:06:52] I think I've talked to you about this before the overheard project that I have been [00:07:00] doing for a while. And that is that I'm a shameless eavesdropper, and I happen to have a terrific memory. So I'm able to keep entire conversations in my head. And I have been overhearing shamelessly eavesdropping on people's conversations. [00:07:13] For years and I've notated them all down. And the book overheard life lessons through eavesdropping is going to be dropping sometime this autumn probably in time for the holidays. It's going to be some sort of an art book and I'm excited about it because it's again, bringing that little bit of slice of life, about how we do things about the things we care about, about the things we love with love and sex and family and friendship and work. [00:07:38] All of these things we talk about. And we, we all say such wisdom. We don't pay attention to it though. It's almost like I wish I could find all of those people who have given me gifted me with such wisdom as they just go on about their lives. And I shamelessly eavesdrop because I love to give them credit, but you know, maybe then maybe they'll [00:08:00] maybe they'll buy the book and they'll realize, oh, that was me. [00:08:04] I don't know if that'll ever happen, but it would be really amazing and hilarious. Number five. The podcasting industry has exploded where they used to be a few hundred thousand. There are now millions of podcasts. So if you've got something to say and you want to start one, don't wait until you have just the right equipment. [00:08:26] Don't wait until your studio is perfect. There will always be another super cool microphone and more soundproofing and better gear. You'll have gear envy like crazy, but what's more important is to get your words out there. Do you remember the movie pump up the volume? Talk hard. My favorite moment in the whole movie is the credits. [00:08:46] When you start hearing all the people who grabbed the courage with both hands and started talking into a microphone, so start and build your gear and your show along the way. There are people out there who are building their businesses, teaching other people how [00:09:00] to start their shows. You can also find everything you need. [00:09:03] On YouTube. I promise you can totally do that. If you've got the resources and you can also bootstrap and start talking about your topic on your phone, number six, your topic can evolve. You can start out like I did and talk about storytelling and then move to creativity only. But then I moved to innovation because I've always loved creativity. [00:09:24] With a purpose. That to me is the most important part is a creative on a mission. That's what an innovator really is. As someone who's a creative, who thinks laterally, who thinks from, from different angles to solve problems, to come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things, that person is a creative on a mission. [00:09:44] And that's what an innovator is. That's what. Do. And it's really exciting to me to get a chance to talk to so many different innovators from so many different possible arenas. You know, I never in my life, what I have [00:10:00] imagined, some of the people who were willing to come on the show and talk to me about how they innovate. [00:10:04] And that brings me to number seven, communication is the vehicle and connection as the result. Really honestly, I had no thought in my head that someone like Tom Peters, who is a communication guru, he is arguably the greatest leadership expert in our generation. And certainly for the last few generations, not only has he been willing to come on the show once, but twice to talk about his ideas about. [00:10:30] What he calls extreme humanism. And that is that we should be leading thinking about the people first and not the bottom line. He believes we should always promote from within that women should be on the boards and leading businesses because women are so much better at investing at communication at looking at and dealing with people and figuring out how to grow businesses and companies and organizations. [00:10:55] Long-term. I had no thought in my head that we would connect and communicate [00:11:00] and, and have such substantive discussions. Another person who's just thrilled me that he was just on the, he just recorded his episode, his episodes actually going to come out sometime in August or September. Peter Shankman was willing to come on the show and talk about how. [00:11:16] His ADHD, his attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder is actually his super power to innovate and to be a creative thinker who thinks laterally and who helps companies and businesses all over the world and organizations and people all over the world innovate and make incredible inroads. Yeah. The way the world will be formed and move moving forward. [00:11:42] How can, how can you possibly, I can't even get over it because I'm just. I'm just lucky. That's I'm lucky. That's not true. I okay. I'm not going to be falsely modest. I worked my patootie off. That's true, but I don't do it alone. And that brings me to number eight, [00:12:00] calling your friends. They will be there and they'll help you along the way. [00:12:03] Like Al Pettaway, Grammy award, winning guitarist and musician and Andrew Lippa, Tony nominated and also Grammy award winning and Emmy nominated. He just got nominated for an Emmy Andrew lipo, who is. An amazing composer and lyricist, and who wrote the music and lyrics to the Broadway sensation, the Adams, family, and other shows and T Morris, who is an incredible author and entertainer and the author of books like podcasting for dummies. [00:12:33] They have all been on the show and have been very gracious with their wisdom. And I'm very glad because. They they were willing to give me their, their wisdom and their knowledge and be part of the process as this show has evolved. And you know what it's about time to get them all back and see where they are now because ti was last on the show. [00:12:54] Last autumn, Andrew was last summer and Al Pettaway was left, was not this [00:13:00] past spring, but the previous spring and why not see where they are so I can get even more information and get even more wisdom from these wonderful men. Privileged to call my friends, but then that brings me to number nine. And number nine is actually about solo episodes. [00:13:18] One of the things that has been such a revelation to me is that when I first started out, I did only solo episodes. And please, in case, because it won't know how should I put this really? Mainly because I was, I was a little trepidatious. I was a little afraid. What would I ask for people to join me to talk about? [00:13:37] And would anybody ever come on the show and. Certainly they have and they continue to, and I do incredible I get incredible information and interviews with such gracious wisdom from all of the people who come on the show. But then there are some times when I have things that I would like to ruminate on discuss and explore, and those are the solo episodes. [00:13:59] And one of the [00:14:00] things that I've learned is that there is a time and place for both. You can indeed do. Both solo episodes and interview episodes. If you want on this kind of a podcast, you know, when, when T Morris was gracious enough to put the innovative mindset podcast into podcasting for dummies, he and his co author placed it in the slice of life section of the, of podcasts that they recommend. [00:14:25] And I thought that was really interesting because. It's not, this show is not so much business, not so much entrepreneurship, not so much slice of life, but yet it's an amalgam of all of them as we explore what it means to change the world for the better, ultimately through different and various forms, whether it's creativity, social impact, environmentalist, or animal rights, the show aims to explore how we all can make a difference and make a change and make the world a better place. [00:14:55] So sometimes. Privileged, as I said to have [00:15:00] interviews, to have people come on the show and give their wisdom. And sometimes these solo episodes are an opportunity for me to give you substantive ideas on how you yourself can take some of the principles that the people who've been on the show have talked about and make them your own and become your own change maker. [00:15:17] If that is what you want to do. Number 10. Yeah, I think I've just talked about this, but here we go. Interviews, as you start out, people come on, your show are doing you a favor they're giving of their time and resources to help you yet. At the same time, if you have even one listener, you'll helping your guests reach someone who didn't know about them before. [00:15:41] Be generous with your time, wisdom and resources. The host guest relationship is important and you can build lifelong friendships and relationships. If you treat your guests with courtesy and respect. And I'm so, as I said, honored and privileged to have these incredible people on the show. [00:16:00] And I'm so grateful that they're willing to do this to be on the show and to give of their time and their knowledge. [00:16:08] It's it's incredible. Number 11 ask. Good questions. Be different, figure out what your podcast point of view is. And then use that as the lens through which you take your listener on a journey. And that's kind of what I do I think. Or at least that's what I try to do. This podcast is a little different because these conversations go really deep. [00:16:31] And one of the things that a lot of my guests say is, you know, No one's ever asked me that question before or, wow. That's a great quote. I need to think about that for a minute. And that's one of the things that I aim to do is to ask questions that give people, pause that make them, give them the opportunity to go deeper into what they've been talking about. [00:16:54] And I said this recently to a guest of mine mayor Meredith Gren dye, she and I were talking [00:17:00] about. This notion of asking deep questions. And one of the reasons that I said to her, one of the reasons that I, that I like asking deep questions is because frankly, if you're a podcast guest, for example, and your audience listens to you, they probably listen to you talk about a lot of the same things a lot, but what if someone asks a question. [00:17:24] That you've never answered before. Wow. The mysteries you could be solving. Right. So that's one of the things that I aim to do with asking deep, good questions. And I, and I plumbed the depths as much as I can. I'm patting myself on the back here a little bit, but I really do try. And the reason for that is because. [00:17:43] My guests to feel like they have benefited in some small way from being on the show, as much as the amazing ways I've benefited from having them on the show. Number 12, a podcast is a [00:18:00] sacred trust, like the Y storytellers in many of our myths. As a podcaster I've taken on the task of telling stories or inviting other people to share their stories only instead of sitting around the bonfire under the cover of darkness, I'm sitting at a mic and telling stories, or I'm inviting the person I'm interviewing. [00:18:22] To sit behind their mic and tell you their story. And there's something so powerful about that hearing stories. We we've been doing it as long as we've been verbal. Someone has asked why or what or how, and someone else has answered. Or they've explored together. And that's one of the things that I aim to do with this show is to give us all an opportunity to explore together what it means to be an innovator, a creative thinker, and someone who wants to change the world for the better. [00:18:55] My guests are going to be. They're, they're all [00:19:00] amazing. They're going to floor you over the next 400 episodes because I'm not going anywhere. This, this show is going to be around. As long as I'm around, I'm going to, I'm going to be 98 years old and barely able to talk. But by gum, I'm going to be out here somehow trying to do this. [00:19:19] Because I think the notion of innovation and how we can be creatives on a mission to make the world a better place. I think it could potentially save all of us. And I would be remiss if I did not, I would be shirking my responsibilities if I did not make that a priority in my life because we have. [00:19:44] Such an incredible responsibility at this tipping point in our species, survival and this at this time of great climate change and habitat destruction, and so many other things, being challenging, that innovation, I [00:20:00] think being creative on a mission will allow us the opportunity to change the world and make it a better place. [00:20:11] So, those are the things that I've learned from doing this podcast. And I am thrilled and honored that you have been listening and being on the show and being on the show. My brain, see, my brain is fried. I've had, I did three interviews today. It was a busy day. So my brain's a little fried, but I, but I do, I do feel like you're on the show with me because I feel like I'm talking to you when. [00:20:39] When I'm doing the show and I feel like we're all sitting around in the end. It's funny. Whenever I'm welcoming a guest to the show, I always say, imagine we're sitting in a cafe and having a cup of coffee together or to two or whatever, it's just a chat. And yet, sometimes. Somebody makes small talk and, oh, hi, how are you? [00:20:57] How's the weather. And sometimes all of [00:21:00] a sudden the conversation goes intense and deep, and you're really thinking, and you're really innovating. And you're really coming up with ideas that you're articulating that you may never have articulated before. And you're doing it for thousands of people who are listening. [00:21:14] It is such an honor and so incredible. And I'm super grateful that you're part of this journey. So here we go. I promised you fabulous prizes in the show notes. If you look on the website, you'll see that there's this really cool. It almost looks like dichroic, but it's not. It's like a reflective, really cool rainbow sticker. [00:21:38] Of the innovative mindset podcast. And I have recently started an actual innovative mindset podcast, Instagram. And so here's how the fabulous prizes are going to go. The first 20 people who follow the Instagram account for the innovative mindset podcast, which is just at innovative mindset podcast, [00:22:00] all one word. [00:22:01] And DM me that you to let me know that you did it because you listened to this episode, we'll get a sticker of the first 20 people. One person is going to get all six books and a PDF of the next one that will come out. This autumn of my stuff, and three people. We'll get, can you tell I'm making some of this up because I can't read the words that I wrote. You'll get a book of your choice for my catalog. So if you go to his old, a t.com and you go to about, and then books, you'll be able to see the six books. [00:22:45] And if you. If you're there and you're in the top 20 and you've DMD me, I'm going to choose someone at random from all the people who follow. And it, you don't have to be in the top 20 to win the, the second prize or the first prize, [00:23:00] but the first top 20 who follow and tell me that they followed will absolutely get a sticker that you can put on your computer or on your coffee cup or wherever, because they're waterproof and you can put them in the dishwasher. [00:23:10] It's really cool. And. Of all the people who follow in DME that they've, that they have followed the Instagram account. You'll get, I'm going to choose three people who get one book out of the catalog and you can choose your book. When I let you know you've won. And in one person I'm going to choose is going to get all six plus the PDF of the new one. [00:23:32] When it comes out in. Hopefully around the holiday season in December. Okay. That was a long and involved way of saying, I didn't quite think this through as well as I could have. Huh. All right. Cool. So here we are. We are at the end of the 400th episode last week was Mike cam. Who's a personal branding expert. [00:23:53] He joined me on the show and next week is Chris Niemeyer who. He's an interesting [00:24:00] man who is taking, he's decided that his goal in his life is to spend more time with his family. So he's developed some strategies and ideas on how to make income so that he has time to spend time with his family. That is his goal. [00:24:15] And one of the things that's really cool is that that applies equally. Well, if you want to be an activist, if you want to be an artist, if you want to do all of these things, however you want to do it, the ideas that he talks about. We'll work. If you want to spend time with your family, if you want to make great art, if you want to be an activist with the SPCA or the sea shepherd conservation society or wherever it is, you want to put your energies. [00:24:40] If what you want to do is make money in one way and do work of your heart in another, or maybe you just love making money. I don't know. Chris will be there to talk you through. How to do it. It's a really cool episode. It made me think in some really interesting ways. And August has incredible guests as well. [00:25:00] [00:25:00] Evan stern is going to be joining me. Meredith granddad is going to be joining me. Angela angle is going to be joining me, star Hayward. It's going to be amazing and I'm going to be doing just so you know, every month, one episode a month is going to be a solo show. It's going to be me talking to you about how to be. [00:25:17] Innovator about how to be a creative on a mission so that you can do the things that you want to do in the, in a different and amazing and exciting and inspiring. All righty. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and all of the things that I've learned after 400 episodes of the innovative mindset podcast. [00:25:37] I am Izolda Trakhtenberg. If you're liking the show, please leave a review. I'd love to hear from you until next time I send you all of my love and I remind you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot. And as often as possible, be a creative on a mission. [00:26:01] [00:26:00] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset. [00:26:18] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg in his copyright 2021 as always, please remember. For educational and entertainment purposes, only past performance does not guarantee future results. Although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.    

Her vision for adult- and sex-work by 2030: “My dream would be that adult performers and industry people could be looked at like any other entertainment entity. You have other physical laborers, like athletes, and they get to have multimillion-dollar contracts. It would be great to see [adult] performers be sponsored as the face of a company, a Victoria's Secret line or something like that. It's little things like that that make the general public be like, ‘Huh, they really are a normal person.'” Her vision for adult- and sex-work by 2030: “I would love it if we had a mandatory law that made it so you have to be trained on a basic level, like every other industry, in sexual harassment and assault before you set foot on an adult film set. I also think there should be a reporting system, so it's easy to report the predator, and there should be something where the companies have a way to deal with assault or harassment that would be incorporated with the reporting system. And before a performer gets to set, they should have thorough knowledge of what they're doing that day and have paperwork that outlines that.” --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/antonio-myers4/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/antonio-myers4/support

On this episode of Back to the Clones: The Good the Bad a Podcasters Batch - Episode 6 Bad Batch with just a dash of Rebels its a animated loopy loopy TIME LOOPING, your hosts David Senden and Kyle Wagner, discuss the latest 2 episodes of Star Wars: the Bad Batch Episode 10 "Common Ground', and Episode 11 'Devil's Due', although it seems like a fairly weird odd animated time loop, cause on one side you have a Bad Batch episode, but one that feels like a bit of a step back, and on the other side we have a episode of the Bad Batch, that feels MORE far MORE like a Star Wars Rebels episode, to paraphase a Jeff Goldblum line from Jurassic Park, 'Huh you'll have some Bad Batch, in your Bad Batch show'

This Pfriday's pfilm holds a very special place in both our hearts, and we would gladly let La Pfeiffer's villainous witch Lamia eat our hearts if she asked. We are going through the Wall on the magical adventure that is STARDUST! We go to Stormhold and back again, as we discuss seeing this movie in theatres, crushing on the adorable Charlie Cox, Oscar nom bafflements (no makeup? no costume design? Huh?) and, of course, the delicious and joyful evil coursing through Michelle as she plays this movie's wicked antagonist. Come get spellbound with us! If you enjoy what you hear, please rate and subscribe on your preferred podcast channel. You can also follow us on Twitter @pfeifferpfriday or on Instagram @pfeifferpfridays.

Imagine yourself standing smack in the middle of a busy city. You'd get dizzy just by looking at how fast people go about their daily lives. Everyone is so hyperactive and absorbed in getting things done. Amid all the chaos, we forget to take a pause, be still and breathe.  Remember, we can only evolve into our best selves if we take a moment and be present. And no one knows this more than the ultimate warrior, Mark Divine. He joins us in this episode to share his experiences in the military and how meditation helped him develop inner strength. Mark also teaches us how to use positive internal dialogue in visualising and attracting victory.  If you want to know more about the benefits of meditation through the experience of an ultimate warrior, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:  Find out Mark's experience with meditation and how this made him into an ultimate warrior. Discover how a positive internal dialogue can train your brain to be focused. Know about recapitulation and how it can help in dealing with traumas.   Episode Highlights [05:34] Mark's Background Mark's experiences with his father forged his mental toughness and resilience. This laid the foundation for him to be an ultimate warrior. He grew up boating, hiking, and running trails through the mountains. Athletics was his escape, but he wasn't able to think about his future.  When Mark left college, he was fortunate enough to get a job in a big accounting firm; this allowed him to go to a top business school.  Despite school and work, Mark was determined to continue his athletic career. He then became interested in Seido karate. Meditation made him realise that he wasn't following his true path.  [15:13] Becoming an Ultimate Warrior Mark came across a Navy recruitment centre, saw their poster, and applied to be a SEAL. Mark graduated with his entire boat crew. He was number 1 in his class.   Mark credits this achievement to meditation training and the team building activities that compelled you to tame your ego. [19:59] The Importance of Meditation and Yoga Mark meditated and trained in yoga every day in the war zone. He felt stronger and more confident.  Yoga is the oldest science of mental and personal development.  Mark learned that training one's physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual aspects mean you can access more of yourself and your potential. Yoga, in a sense, is integration; it is coming back to who we are and being whole.  Listen to the full episode to learn how Mark got into yoga and how this contributed to him becoming an ultimate warrior. [26:33] The Importance of Emotional Strength In SEAL training, most of those who quit were physically strong but lacked the emotional strength to handle extreme moments of crisis and doubt. The person subconsciously created the injury to quit.  Mark tried to be flexible and didn't let anything bother him during SEAL training.  Mark trains SEALs by teaching the Big Four: box breathing, positive internal dialogue, visualisation, and micro-goals.  [35:19] Examining Your Internal Dialogue Meditation is a critical part of examining one's internal dialogue.  How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and motivation.  The term 'feeding the fear wolf' means to allow negative dialogue, imagery, and emotions to control and weaken you.  Positive thoughts, or ‘feeding the courage wolf', creates a higher vibration, bringing in more energy and access to creativity.  Controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra can be very transformative; it helps you develop concentration and increase productivity.  [41:33] Imagining Victory Our belief systems are made out of statements that may or may not be true.  Pay attention to your thoughts and make them positive. Know that you are competent.  Although you may not feel it yet, continue meditating to get rid of that negative side.   When you understand your capabilities, you can project them into the future and have an image of your success.  When positive thoughts overcome negative ones, you can see your true self more clearly, and powerful thoughts start to spread.  [46:10] The Zen Process Meditation is challenging, especially for active people. We have to disconnect from various distractions and be still.  You can't evolve if you are constantly active; the only way to go inward is to slow down and be quiet.  The first step in meditation practice is box breathing. It releases stress and brings brain-body balance.  In the second step, the box pattern turns into concentration practice. The mantra is also added to train concentration and attention.  The third step allows you to put less energy into concentration and observe yourself from a witness perspective.  [53:00] The Importance of Doing Emotional Work Doing emotional work is the foundation of meditation.  Without this, you don't get the full benefits of meditation. Meditation requires patience.  The process is different for everyone.  [55:44] Going into the Witness Perspective In this part of the process, you empty your mind and allow any thought streams to come in. You experience a metacognitive split here.  You see the thoughts that come up from a perspective that's separate from them.  Through this, you realise you're not your thoughts and emotions. And so, you have the power to change your story. When you visualise from the witness perspective, you see what your spirit wants you to see. You realise your true purpose.  If you do this every day, you attract the future that's right for you, and you feel connected to the world. Through this, you eventually gain enlightenment. [01:02:43] How Meditation Can Help Athletes Meditation supports total health. Through it, you'll become more healthy, strong, and motivated. Awakened athletes and warriors who serve the world can change it. Athletes can do so because they are emotionally balanced. [01:05:25] What Is Recapitulation? Recapitulation is where we use imagery to go back into our past, relive traumatic events, recontextualise them, and forgive.  It is to see yourself forgiving your younger self and changing the image and energy associated with your traumas.  Awareness and identification of traumatic events is the first step to the recapitulation.  Recapitulation can be used to go back and overcome big traumas and to make sure you are not dragging past regrets.  Recapitulation then becomes a daily practice of letting go of regrets and resentments. Listen to the full episode and hear some examples of this!  [01:18:28] How to Be a Good Leader Show up as the best version of yourself. Be humble, authentic, trustworthy, courageous, and respectful.  It takes time to develop those qualities and work on them with your team.  Listen to the full episode to know how Mark does leadership training in his programs!   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #199: Episode with Dr Don Wood Connect with Mark: Website | Instagram  The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Bedros Keulian on Learning How to “Man Up” How to Deal with Trauma with Dr Don Wood Check out these books by Mark Divine!  Staring Down the Wolf  Unbeatable Mind  8 Weeks to SEALFIT The Way of the SEAL  KOKORO Yoga Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda 2021 Unbeatable Challenge   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again.' ‘Human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole.' ‘How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology “feeding the courage wolf” versus “feeding the fear wolf.' ‘Understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, “What does victory look like for me?”' ‘I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose.' ‘Ultimately, we create our own reality. It's all basically, it's all experienced with [the] mind. So that's powerful.' ‘You can do anything, one at a time.'   About Mark Mark Divine grew up in Upstate New York. He has a degree in economics from Colgate University and an MBA from NYU. He is a New York Times best-selling author, leadership expert, entrepreneur, motivational speaker.  Mark is also a retired U.S. Navy SEAL Commander. He spent nine years on active duty and 11 as a Reserve. With 20 years in service, he served in over 45 countries. During his time in the military, Mark created a nationwide mentoring program for SEAL trainees. Because of his success, he decided to start SEALFIT. This fitness company aims to prepare civilians for the physical and emotional demands of a SEAL-like lifestyle.  Mark knows the value of emotional strength in transforming lives. With this in mind, he published Unbeatable Mind in 2011, which includes an at-home study program. Mark also has several other entrepreneurial endeavours and books in his name. He's also the host of the Unbeatable Mind podcast. With all these ventures, Mark's ultimate aim is to create more resources to improve the lives of everyone he meets.  If you want to know more about Mark and his work, check out his website and Instagram.     Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can be motivated to be their real selves through meditation. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential. With your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone, Lisa Tamati here. Fantastic to have you back at Pushing the Limits this week. Now I have a wonderful man who I've followed for a number of years. He's one of my heroes, I was a little bit of a fangirl in this interview I have to admit. But it was pretty crazy. I have Commander Mark Divine on the show. Mark is an ex-Navy SEAL. He was a Commander in the Navy Seal. He was there for 20 years, and he was a fantastic leader. He was deployed in over 45 countries around the world. He also trains, trains a lot of the SEALs who are going into BUD/S training. He was number one on his course when he went through BUD/S, and that's saying something. That's nine months of hell on earth, so if you get through that, you've got to be pretty cool, and to be number one in the end of the whole 190 that went on, that's pretty amazing.  He's the author of a number of books: Staring Down the Wolf, Unbeatable Mind, and SEALFIT, and runs a number of multi-million dollar companies. As a leadership consultant, he trains, not only does he train the military, he helps people prepare for SEAL training. He also now runs through his innovative SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind training systems. Kokoro crucible is one of his programs. He shares the same secrets with entrepreneurs, executives, and teams through his book and through his book, and through his speaking, and through his award-winning podcast. He has his own, and I have the privilege of being on that one shortly. He runs world-renowned leadership and team events. Wonderful man to talk to, someone that I really, really look up to and respect. His discipline that he brings to everything that he does is quite amazing. So I hope you enjoy the show. Before we go, I just want to remind you to check out our epigenetics program, if you haven't already. Head over to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button, and find out about our Peak Epigenetics program. This is all about understanding your genetics, and how to optimise them for your best performance. So everything from food, to exercise, what types of exercise to do, what times of the day you should be training, what times of the day you should be eating, and how often. What type of diet is right for you, right down to the nitty gritty. You know, eat almonds, don't eat cashew nuts, right specific to your genetics, so to speak. It also looks at your whole mood and behavior, what makes you tick, why do you think the way you do, what areas you may have problems with, your predispositions.  That's not to be all deterministic, and negative, that's all to be like this is what you're dealing with, and this is how we can hit things off at the pass. This is a really life-changing program, and we're really proud to bring it to you. We've been doing it for a number of years now. We've taken hundreds of people through this program, and we work with corporate teams. So if you're out there and you have a corporate team that might be interested in doing either this or our boost camp program, which is all about upgrading and learning all about how to manage stress, how to reduce the effects of stress, and be more resilient and bring a higher performance to your game, then please reach out to us. Go over to lisatamati.com. and check out all the programs that we have here.  Just a reminder too, I have a new book out called Relentless: How a Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds. If you've listened to this podcast for a while, you would hear me harp on about my amazing mum and the journey that we've been on back from a massive aneurysm that left her at the age of 74 with hardly any higher function, and a prognosis that said she would never ever do anything again. And they were very, very wrong. So I want to share this book, I want to share the story, because it's a very empowering story. So if you haven't read the book Relentless, I really encourage you to go and do that. I'm really keen to get this out there because this will empower and change lives, and already has, so make sure you read Relentless. Right, over to the show with Commander Mark Divine. Hi everyone, Lisa Tamati here. I'm super, super excited. I'm jumping out of my skin, I can't sit still. I have one of my great heroes that I've followed for such a long time, so I'm a little bit, being a bit of a fangirl right now. But I'm sure I'll calm down in a minute or two. Commander Mark Divine is with us. He has such a huge history. You are known, really, as the warrior man, Unbeatable Mind, SEALFIT. You've done a heck of a lot in your life. Mark, it's just, I can't wait to share some of your insights, because what you do and what you've done is just absolutely amazing. So, welcome to Pushing the Limits. Can you give us a little bit of background, Mark, on where you come from and what you've done and how you've, just to give us a little bit of, because you, obviously you've been in the SEALs, you're a commander in the SEALs, you're a trained SEAL. So let's start there. Let you come to it. Mark Divine: Oh, my God, where to start? Lisa: Maybe childhood. Mark: I was born at a very young age in a very small town in upstate New York, a province of the United States. I'll try to keep this short because sometimes I have a few run-on sentences. Go like 40 minutes, right? We don't want that to happen. That's when we have a good time. So yeah, I was a pretty normal kid growing up, running around the woods of upstate New York, crazy family, lots of alcohol and anger. The belt would come out pretty much every other night. My brother and I would literally just provoke my father just to do it, because we stopped taking him seriously after a while. In that regard, I feel pretty fortunate that my young spirit was like, ‘You can't break me'. I realise now that we all choose our parents, let's just say, from a spiritual perspective, I certainly believe that. For certain experiences, and for a while I played the victim, woe is me.  But now I look back and thank God, that really forged my mental toughness and resiliency. I had to unpack some crap from that, obviously, but it made me a Navy SEAL warrior, right? When I went through Navy SEAL training, you could not hurt me, because nothing was compared to my dad. Anyway, so that's a little aside. Upstate New York had a really— it's beautiful. I've been to your country in New Zealand. It's just absolutely gorgeous. I feel the same way about America in certain places, the much bigger. New York is one of those areas that, 6 million acres of unfettered, protected land in northern New York called the Adirondack Mountains, and that was my playground. And our summer home was on the west shore of a lake called Lake Placid where the Olympics were, you're probably familiar with that.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: There was no road access to my house. There was no TV, no internet. Still, there's finally internet after but no TV, and we would have to take a boat to get there. And so I grew up with boats and I grew up hiking in the Adirondacks and a lot of time alone in the wilderness, which is one of the reasons I became kind of an endurance athlete. I know you're an endurance lady. Because I was comfortable, being alone. I was comfortable running the trails in the mountains, and I used to have a friend, we would run up Whiteface Mountain, which is at the base or the foot of Lake Placid. Not a huge mountain, it's 4,000 feet, but you know it took a couple hours. If you're going to hike up there it takes a few hours. For us to run up there, took us 45 minutes. People used to think we were crazy. When we got to the top we would wrap our ankles and our knees and we would play tag on the way down. The trails are steep and just rocks and ruts and roots. It's amazing we didn't kill ourselves.  So that was my like early childhood upbringing, nature being in the woods and in the water were my solace away from the family dynamics. That led me to be a competitive athlete in high school, 12 varsity letters and then into college, I was recruited for swimming and I became a competitive rower. And then I started triathlon. So, I was an athlete, but the athletics really was my escape and kind of my grounding rod, like it is for so many athletes, right? When I— then I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I didn't really spend a lot of time in my youth thinking about my future, I kind of accepted a lot of the stories for my family that I was going to go back and be part of the family business. That business was really the place that Divines go, you know, we don't go into the military, we don't go into academia, we don't do those things. So anyways, it's as your listeners are hearing this, they're probably like, ‘Yep, check.' Lisa: They may have done that. Mark: That's the norm, right? That's not, I wasn't off, but it's certainly not what I teach today, right? Because, right, I think if we're— if we don't follow our passion and find our calling in life, then we're going to have discomfort later on, and discomfort is going to lead to existential crisis. So I was very fortunate, incredibly fortunate that when I left college, I got a job with a big accounting firm, consulting accounting firm called Coopers and Lybrand, which became accountant, became— Lisa: You were an accountant. I mean, that makes me laugh, really. Mark: I was an accountant. Lisa: I was on the way to being an accountant too. So because of what my dad wanted, and I'm about as far from an accountant, as you can get, you know.  Mark: I was too. Lisa: That's a good story. Mark: But I stuck with it long enough to become a certified public accountant, I had to pass the exam.  Lisa: I didn't. Mark: I got my— I tell you what, I would rather go back to BUD/S Navy SEAL training than try that darn exam again. That told me something right there. But you know, it is a great opportunity. Because here I am, you know, I got a degree from a pretty good university called Colgate. But I didn't really have any skills. And so this job opportunity gave me and sent me to a top business school in the United States called NYU, New York University. So I got my MBA in finance, and I became a certified public accountant for four years. I got to work on a lot of different companies as a consultant and auditor. So I saw a lot. But, so that was kind of formative, in a sense, like, I learned a lot. What was probably more formative, or more substantial for me was, once I got into that suit and tie, and I was working eight hours a day, mind you, they allowed me to work only 8 or 10 hours a day. Most people in those scenarios work 15 to 20. But because they were sponsoring this small group of us to go to business school at night, they had to let us off, and then we would go to school full-time during the summer, and just come in on Fridays. It was a really cool program. So I was working 8 to 10 hours a day, going to school at night. And it's— I was an athlete, right? And I was like, ‘How am I going to, how am I going to stay as an athlete?' Right? Most people don't. Because you know, in the corporate world, and I was like, ‘I've got to, I've got to continue my athletic career.' And so I would get up really early in the morning and go for a six mile run. And then at lunchtime when all my peers would go have a beer or martini and lunch, I would go to the gym and do like this, what I now know is a high intensity functional workout, which back then nobody talked about. Because I had to go fast, and I was wanting to do a lot of different variety, and I had to be in and out of there in 45 minutes. And then after, they let me go at five o'clock in the afternoon, and my first class wasn't till 7:30. So I'm looking at that saying, ‘Look, I got two and a half hours. I could do some training here.' So one night, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But one night, I was walking down 23rd Street, I was living on 22nd in Manhattan, and I heard these screams coming out of this building. And I stopped and I looked up and I was standing under the flag of the World Seido Karate Headquarters.  ‘Oh, interesting. Maybe it's a martial art.' And I had been intrigued with the martial arts. But in Upstate New York, that just wasn't much. There's nothing as a matter of fact, in my time, and so I didn't really get a chance to study anything. So I went in there and I was floored. I was stunned by what I saw. It was an incredible art. This was the headquarters of a worldwide art called seido, they had three or 400,000 students. And the Grand Master, the founder was on the center of the floor, this Japanese man, 10th degree black belt, looked like a frickin' tank. And he was, his name was Nakamura, and he became my mentor, my first real mentor. Yeah. Now what's interesting, he says it wasn't really the karate that changed me. It was the zen training. And he is one of the few masters who kept the old ways of training the mind and the body and the spirit, and understood that they all had to be in balance, and they all were part of the package of developing these corrupted, these trainees.  I loved the zen part, and there was a zen class we had every Thursday night for an hour, we would sit on that little wooden zazen bench. And honestly, this studio is the headquarter, had well over a thousand students. There were ten of us in this class, most of them black belts, and I was a white belt, and I was like, ‘Where is everyone else?' I didn't get it. And then there wasn't a lot of understanding or talk about meditation back then. But boy, I did this thing to do meditation. I had all the usual kind of resistance to it, and my monkey mind going all over the place and wondering if it really worked. I trusted Nakamura and the way he acted and presented himself as a character, just who he was, was so different than any other human I've ever seen or experienced. And I was like, ‘There's got to be something to this, right?' So I stuck with it. And it literally changed almost every aspect of who I was and how I saw the world and what I perceived to be my calling and my purpose in life. And it was sitting on that bench that I realised that I was going down the wrong path with this MBA, CPA, working in the corporate world. Even if I went back to the family business, it just wasn't what I was meant to do. That was the first time in my life that I allowed myself to examine my core story that said, this is who I am, and to recognise it was built on a lie. Lisa: Yeah. And you weren't following your true path. Mark: I wasn't following my true path. But my true path wasn't exactly laid out for me, in those meditation sessions. It was more like the archetypal energy in the arc of my life was shown to me and that that art was to be a warrior, and then it would lead somewhere else that wasn't quite clear to me, but the warrior part was very strong. And it didn't— I didn't get messages while I was meditating, saying, ‘You're going to be a Navy SEAL.' What I got was ‘warrior' and, ‘You're going down the wrong path with this business stuff.' It was when I finally started to accept that, that I learned about the Navy SEALs, right. Remember, this is 1987, 88, there was no TV shows and movies, no famous names.  Lisa: They weren't famous back then.  Mark: Nobody knew them. In fact, the few people that did know them were like, crazy guys. So I— one day, I was walking home from work, and I came across a Navy recruiting station. I didn't even know it was that but I saw a poster in the window. I took a double take of this poster. I was like, well, the title of that poster was, ‘Be Someone Special'. And it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. Jumping out of airplanes, yeah, blocking out little mini submarines, sneaking through the water. It's just so cool for me. I just sat there kind of transfixed, looking at that, and I didn't say anything about the SEALs. They said, US Navy, and I was, ‘Huh, interesting.' So I went back and I talked to the recruiters so what, ‘Who are those people in that poster?' They said, ‘Oh, they're crazy Navy SEALs. You don't want to do that.' I said, ‘Yeah, I do. Tell me more.' So long story short. I started that whole CPA, MBA bullshit, 1985. In November of 1989, I got my black belt, I got my MBA, I got my CPA and I was on a bus. I was on a bus to Officer Candidate School. Lisa: That was the next mission. Mark: On to the next mission. I wandered away from, I walked away from probably what would today's dollars be $200,000 salary to get paid $500 a month?  Lisa: Wow. That takes— Mark: For heading off as a candidate. Lisa: That takes courage. That alone takes courage. Mark: But I didn't question that. You know, I knew it. I knew this is the right path. And when I got to SEAL training, what we called BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training. Man, I felt like I was home, and there was no way that they were going to get me to quit. I mean, other people said this, but I said this very clearly: ‘You have to kill me to get me out of here.' And I don't think they can legally do that. Although they sure do try. Lisa: It can get pretty close. Mark: It can get pretty close, yeah. I sailed through SEAL training. We had 185 in my class, hardcore, awesome guys. And 19 of us graduated. I graduated number one in my class and my entire team, my boat crew that we trained together from day one, graduated with me.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: So there's something about that meditation training, Nakamura and the skills, and the values on team building and taking my eyes off myself and putting them on others, the taming of the ego, it really allowed me to help lead my team to success, right? We made it about the team and not about me, and everyone else was about them. And they— the team's, the instructors are, their job is to select the next crop of teammates that they will go to war with.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: So what they're looking for is not who's the toughest guy, not who's the best athlete—  Lisa: Not the coolest, yeah.  Mark: Yeah, exactly, not the best looking whatever. It's, ‘Are you a great teammate? Are you gonna have my back?' So that's something that I guess I demonstrated.  Lisa: Wow, that's a brilliant intro into your background. What fascinates me with you too is that you like— you know, because the SEALs are known for being hard asses. I mean, you know they are hard people, they have been through tough stuff, they go through tough stuff every single day that you're out there. But you've got this meditation side, you do a heck of a lot of yoga. You do, you talk about authenticity, and I know you don't like the word vulnerability, but you're quite, you're open about the stuff. That's quite the opposite of most, in the training that you get. I suppose this comes from Nakamura being your master, that he taught you that very early on, they're sort of the both sides of the coin.  I get that question quite a lot, too. When they— when people read what I've done and achieved and so on, they're like, ‘Wow, you must be a super hard ass.' And then they meet you and realise that you're actually very vulnerable or cry a lot. I'm very full of mistakes and problems and stuff that I'm working on at all times. But the difference is, I think, that you embrace both sides. And that you are always in pursuit of excellence, and you're always improving, and you're always developing. And I found that a really interesting combination in someone who's so physically tough and mentally tough to have had both sides. Was that a hard thing in the beginning with the SEALs? Mark: I think you're right. I did learn that initially from Nakamura and so every day, you know, I was so committed. Every day I would stretch and I would do my breathing practices and my visualisation while I was going through SEAL training. Every day in the SEALs, I do some version of that. It was you know, it's difficult for a military operator to keep a daily dedicated practice going if you're up 24 hours a day, and you're in combat. Honestly, when I went to Iraq and combat, I meditated and trained yoga every single day. And it had a profound effect on me, right? In the war zone, all my teammates are just getting frayed at the edges, and I felt strong and confident, and I knew I was going to survive, because I did, I had that vision. I was going to be home with my child, you know, my wife and son.  So it came first from Nakamura, and then I started into yoga. It's not my career, it's important people know, I did plus-20 years in the Navy SEAL, but about nine years active duty and 11 years reserve. So as reserve, so nine years after I joined, even while I was on active duty, I started to get into yoga. But when I got off active duty I had more time. I went full on in, and that was because— actually it is a blessing in disguise. I was living in San Diego and there was no seido karate out here. Otherwise I would have gotten back into seido karate. So first I got into something called goju karate, I got a black belt there. It was very similar to seido but it lacked the spirit and like the mental, the meditation, so I didn't really stick with that. And then I got into ninjutsu, thinking ninjutsu might be a little bit more spiritual. I really liked the teacher but he was a horrible business guy, so right on the cusp of getting my black belt, he shut his school down and ran out of money.  And then I found yoga kind of about the same time as ninjitsu. But I didn't really understand it until I read Patanjali's yoga sutras and also Paramahansa Yogananda's autobiography yoga. And those just absolutely shattered my paradigm of what was possible and what yoga was, as the oldest science of mental and personal development. So I fully went into yoga and I ended up getting 700 hours of certifications and started my own yoga program and wrote a book about it eventually, but, and started teaching it to SEALs. And so all this I was still a SEAL officer. Because I didn't retire from the SEALs in 2011, but I was able to do all this and build a business that started to teach Navy SEALs everything I would have been learning. And that's called SEALFIT. That was the business that everything I've been learning and applying in my own life, right? And this was this integrated model of development. It started with Nakamura where it wasn't just about the physical. It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again. What that means is you'll become more, you have access to more of yourself. You have to put more potential. You can maintain peak performance, you can serve more profoundly, you can do more, you've got way more energy, way more enthusiasm, way more motivation, way more peace of mind, way more clarity.  It's extraordinary. In a sense, it's like coming back to who we are. That's why I call it integration. In fact, the word ‘yoga' means union or integration, and so does is zen, believe it or not. Those practices and traditions are really all about becoming whole as a human again, as opposed to fragments and separate, separate from yourself and separated from others. So I stumbled upon this, and created my own path or my own model. And then when I had started to teach it to SEALs and special operators, and other military operators, a ton of people, even from New Zealand, some of your listeners might have been to my training. Then I started to recognise that, ‘Wow, this is necessary in our culture.' Because most Westerners have no connection to this, this way of living of, taking care of the internal while you are working in the external, the yin and the yang, the balance between being and doing, becoming whole again, so you can do your work from a whole perspective as opposed to a fragmented, separated self. Which leads to suboptimal results, at a minimum, in at least a flat out crisis or destruction at the maximum level. And that's, we're seeing that both in from the investment in violence, military build-up, conflict, as well as environmental degradation is because human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole. Lisa: Yep. This is really good. Because I think, we live our lives very much in the doing. We're busy all day, we're busy with a billion million things, we're running businesses, we're— we've got families and so on. And it's really hard to find that stillness. And I know that even as an athlete who, I think for years, I was just headed through the wall, you know, taking— Mark: Most people are, that's how they learn, until they hit the wall, right?  Lisa: Yeah, no, I hit the wall a couple of dozen times before, because I was a bit thick. I didn't wake up, said, ‘Hang on, this stuff isn't working anymore.' And it works when you're 20. And it works when you're 25. And it works when you're 30. And but when you start hitting your 40s, and you're still smashing the crap out of your body, and you're not really not refilling the tank, and you're not re-examining what the hell are you doing, I think that's when the wheel started, when the wheel started to fall off for me. And I'm like, ‘Hang on a minute, this— why isn't my body doing like, it wasn't what it was supposed to do?' And when you've grown up, though, with that expectation of, you have to be tough, you have to be hard. And I grew up different to you. But I had a dad who was very, he was an awesome father, but he was a hard ass. And he expected you to be tough and mentally tough, physically tough. He didn't really tolerate a lot of weakness or sickness or anything like that. And he was an amazing dad, but he pushed really hard. And that sort of makes you think, well, you have to be hard all the time. And then when you break down, then it's you being weak. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and quieting the mind and doing these things like meditation was for me. Yeah, I know, I hear it's really important, but I can't sit still. I need it twice as much. Mark: Yeah, well, there's a reason for that. It'd be fun to talk about. But think about, when I reflect back, and my SEAL training and all these other guys were trying to be hard, and they had the same thinking, because America has a real soft side to it. But there's a lot of freakin' warriors in America. And we have that same kind of what your dad's talking about. Gotta be hard. Like, there's no room for weakness. It's got to be tough. You think about the metaphor, the guys who quit were just bad asses. Yeah, why did they quit? They quit because they didn't— they lacked the emotional strength to understand what was happening to them in their either most extreme moments of crisis or moments of just doubt, right? And then they're like, so they let uncertainty in, let doubt creep in and corrupt their decision making and then, one mistake leads to an injury we call, quinjury. And you've probably seen this in endurance athletes' is when all of a sudden the injury kind of crops up and then the person's out. And then really, reality is they created that injury to quit.  Lisa: Yeah, because they wanted a way out.  Mark: Because they wanted a way out. It's very subconscious. It's not prepared. It's not preparing properly. It's not recovering properly. It's not understanding that this is a long game and getting your ego out of the way. Lisa: It used to prop up for me every— before any big race, that in the week ahead of that race, I would get sick. And I would, I'm sure that that was my subconscious trying to stop me do it. Mark: Yeah, I've given you an out, right. And so— Lisa: You've got a cold, you've got the flu. Mark: Think about the metaphor between, if you got a tsunami coming, like, consider tsunami a metaphor for a crisis, or a big challenge, like BUD/S or a 50 mile or 100 mile race or something like that. There's a tsunami coming. Would you rather be a mighty oak facing that tsunami, or would you rather be like a reed?  Lisa: A reed, definitely. Mark: Yeah, if so, when I went to SEAL training, I tried to be the reed, right? I tried to be really flexible. I didn't let anything bother me. You know, structures would come up and, during Hell Week for us, which week seven back then. But now it's more like week three or four, seven days non-stop training around the clock, no sleep. Everyone's heard about that. Like a day, Thursday, like the day before, we're over it most of it, we're down to 60, 35, maybe 45 or 50, actually, in our class from 185 already. And instructor evil comes over and he's like, ‘Mark, I don't like you, I'm gonna make you quit.' And in my mind, I was like, ‘Good luck.' And I even think I started— Lisa: That confidence! Mark: I don't know, it was just my spiritual strength saying, ‘No, you're not going to get me to quit, you can't.' And so I actually was challenging him in my mind, and it must come through on my face. And he goes, ‘I'm gonna wipe that smirk right out that effing face.' And he just made me start doing 8-count bodybuilders, which are like a burpee, basically. And I remember in my mind thinking, ‘Okay, all right. Let's do this.' Right? All I got to do is one 8-count bodybuilder at a time, until he gets tired. Lisa: Until he gets tired. Mark: Exactly! So that's what I did. I just did one. I just want, did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And when we got up to like— Lisa: You broke him. Mark: 800.  Lisa: Holy heck.  Mark: Which is nothing, right? I did 24 hours of burpees last, a couple of years ago, as part of our challenge. We did, check this out: we did 22 million burpees as a tribe to raise money for veterans. And part of that was to break a world record where our six-person team, you would love this, three men and three women, we did 36,000 burpees in 24 hours, so I did 7,500 or something like that. So 700 is nothing. Back then I didn't know if it was going to be 700 or 7,000 or 70,000. But he got bored, and he walked away at about 700, and I have to say, that worked. That's a good strategy.  Lisa: What about the burning in the muscles and the exhaustion and the running out of glycogen—  Mark: You can do anything, one at a time.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: It's just like in a race, I'm sure you get to a point where all you have to do all you are saying to yourself is, ‘Just one more step.'  Lisa: One more step. Yep, absolutely.  Mark: Same thing. We call them micro goals. And so we teach— I started teaching these to SEALs, and the best guys already did this. But now we teach it, the SEALs are teaching what I call the Big Four. And they're teaching box breathing for controlling their stress, they're teaching positive internal dialogue, and mantras. And they're teaching visualisation, visualise every event and visualise what the end state looks like for you and then visualise the mission and whatnot. And then micro goals. Like go to BUD/S thinking about eight months of training, you go to BUD/S thinking about, ‘What do I got to do today to win this?' And then when today gets hard, you just collapse. ‘What do I need to do to win this evolution or event that I'm in?' And then when that gets harder, you know, it's like, ‘What do I got to do to get to the next five minutes?' Anytime you quit, or you have the thought, ‘Well, this sucks. I think I want to quit.' You just say, ‘Well, let me just push through to another— let me just push through another five minutes.' Or, ‘Let me just get to that berm up there,' if it's a run, or Log-Pt could go on forever. ‘Let me just finish this evolution, then I'll make a decision.' And so you just keep kicking the can down the road of the pain and the quit decision and the suffering and eventually the suffering goes away, because that's a temporary state. Lisa: And this is like that you just dropped so much golden inside of two minutes. Take a couple of those because these are things that I've took me 20 years to learn. Mark: Play it back in slow motion. Lisa: You know, like this. That's how that's how I break down. You know, every mess of the like, I remember and my listeners have heard me tell the story. But I ran 2,250 kilometers from New Zealand for charity.  Mark: Wow. Good for you. Holy cow.  Lisa: Yeah, no, it's like, but I've been so busy in the build-up doing— I've been at other races around the world, done Badwater in the States, just come back from that, just launched a book and then I'm standing at the start line. I've been so busy in the thing that I actually hadn't thought about actually running the— because I was just like, ‘Yeah, I got everything, sweet.' And then I'm starting at the start line and I just had a panic attack, like the first real big panic attack. And I'm not, because you're staring down the barrel of this—  Mark: Like, holy shit, this is too high to climb. What the heck have I done? Lisa: What the frick was I thinking? And I went home, we had media, we had all my crew and everybody there and I just went away behind the one of the cars and got my mum, my mummy ‘cuz she's my safe place, went to my mummy and I just bawled my eyes out. And said, ‘Mum I can't do this, I don't know what the frick I was thinking. I can't, and there's no way out.' And mum's just like, ‘Hey,' as she hugged me, as mums do. And she said, ‘You don't need to do 2,250 today. All I want you to focus on is that little box up there,' you know, that was a couple of hundred meters up the road. ‘That's what you got to do right now. And then you're going to, you're going to get through to lunchtime, and then you're gonna have lunch. And then we're going to get through to this and that.'  She just broke it down into pieces, and she took all of that load that I was just like, ‘Oh my God, this is huge,' and she broke it into one step at a time, basically. And that was some of the greatest learnings that I've taken away for every event that I've done when— and there have been times when I've broken and I've just crashed on the ground. I don't know how to get up and people have come along and they've got me up and walked me through the next few steps. Or the next— and that has gotten you over that hump, you know? And I just wait, you know, that's so much gold, right there, what you've just said. I think if we can do that in daily life so when we're faced with some big scary thing coming at us, how do I just get through this moment? And we're very— if you can get through these impulses, you know, like there's 30 seconds, through the 30 seconds almost, sometimes you can get to a place where you can cope again. And then you can sort of get back up. Mark: And this goes back to like the internal dialogue. Most people don't examine their internal dialogue. And this is where meditation is so critical. And you can also consider, like running or swimming or biking, endurance sports generally, are also very good for examining internal dialogue, because you're going to meet resistance. How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology ‘feeding the courage wolf' versus ‘feeding the fear wolf'. Feeding fear is allowing negative dialogue and negative imagery and negative emotions to kind of run the rule the roost of your psychology, and that weakens you. Negative thoughts demonstrably weaken you as a human being.  Lisa: Yeah, because—  Mark: They're gonna not just weaken your motivation but literally musculature-wise you get weaker, and that's been proven through kinesiology. So positive thoughts create a higher vibration, which bring more energy, more access to more creativity and motivation. And so you got to train positive thoughts. That's what I mean by feeding the courage wolf. And the more you feed the courage wolf by training positive mantras and positive thoughts, then the more you starve the fear wolf until he goes away, until he just doesn't have the food anymore. And those patterns dry up and blow away. So I created a bunch of positive mantras that I would say in the SEAL training, and they're still with me today.  As soon as I start a hard workout, they kick back in. ‘Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. I can get out of me in Hollywood. I've got this easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey, got this. Easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey.' And then I'll synchronise that with my breathing. So, hardcore, run three steps and inhale 1, 2, 3, ‘I've got this. Easy day. Piece of cake.' Exhale 1, 2, 3. Right.  Lisa: And the rhythm is good too, hey. Mark: Yeah, exactly. So I was synchronising those before, the big four. The first skill I said, box breathing, it's really breath control. Running, anything you're doing, always breathing through your nose as best as possible, and controlling the breathing and creating a nice rhythmic pattern with the breathing. It's going to be different depending upon what you're doing. If you're lifting weights, gonna be one thing, if you're running another, swimming another. Swimming creates its own little breathing patterns, because head in the water versus out of the water. But just starting there, controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra, or a positive internal statement that's linked to the breath is transformative. Not only does it keep you in the game athletically or whatever, but when you do this during your regular day, day in and day out, you're training your mind to be really positive and to be very concentrated. So you're developing concentration power. So you're turning your mind from like a scattered floodlight, which is flickering on and off, the monkey mind, to a very, very concentrated laser beam that you can point that laser beam on anything, any task, any project, and it deeply improves your productivity, the ability to get things done, you know, significantly.  Lisa: Wow.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Mark: And then the imagery, right, the imagery. Well, let me backup. The other thing that that process of paying attention to the quality of your thoughts and changing them to positive thoughts, and increasing your concentration power, as you start to look at the dialogue too, in your head. What is actually going on? And you recognise that typically what's going on in your head is a series of statements that are also based upon belief systems, but it can be framed as questions. When people say, ‘I don't think I can do this,' what they're really saying is, ‘Am I worthy? Am I competent?'  We can begin to recognise that our belief systems are based upon questions and statements that may or may not be true. And so you want to take a look at the ones that are questionable, especially if they have a negative quality, and say, ‘Is that true?' And you realise, ‘It's not true. I am worthy. I am competent.' Now, I may not feel that yet. But the more I tell myself that and the more I can see that in myself, and the more that I meditate and actually feel into my worthiness and my confidence, and the more I work to eradicate the emotional side or shadow that may have, be tied to related to that — for me, it was because of the childhood abuse, I kind of felt a little unworthiness and whatnot, even though I was capable as a SEAL, it's still kind of plagued me for a while, until I had to stare down that wolf of fear and be like, ‘Yeah, that's all bullshit. That's just a story that I'm holding on to and I was able to release all that energy and feel that worthiness now.' Then that leads to a whole nother set of questions, which are extraordinarily empowering, right. So when I— understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, ‘What does victory look like for me?' Right? ‘If I'm going to run this 2,000 meter, or 2,000 kilometer race, and I'm going to raise money for charity, what is that for? What's my ‘why'? And what does victory look like?'  You get a clear sense of what victory looks like. And then you can even do that with the micro parts. So you chunked it down into 100 kilometer segments, let's just say. What does victory look like for that segment for the next five days? What does it look like for today? What does it look like— this is, in a sense, what your mom was doing, but she was doing it from the other way around. What does it look like for the next six hours? What does it look like for the next three hours? You get a clear picture because you're asking the right questions, and you're winning in your mind before you step foot into the battlefield. So asking really powerful questions like, what does victory look like? Who is on my team? Who's got my back? Why am I doing this? How is it related to my purpose in my life? These are the questions that we start asking, because now we've drowned out the negative incessant chatter, which is just holding us back and distracting us. We've created this space, and I use the metaphor still water pond. We've taken our mind and we've created it instead of this choppy, you know, bouncing all over the place, turbulent thought stream, largely negative, we've calmed down. And it's now this still water, and on this still water, you can look at it, you can really see a reflection clearly. So that's kind of a nice thing, you get to see your true self more clearly, but also, what you drop into that water in terms of the thought is going to ripple out and affect everything. So you end up dropping thought seeds that are really powerful, instead of chaotic and negative. Lisa: Because there's this whole, these automatic negative thoughts and if we think about how we evolved that was there for our survival. Because we needed to be aware of dangers and things in our environment, so we were always looking for the bad thing that was going to come at us. But in our world now, where we just, we have this constant chatter in our head. And it's, you know, I've certainly dealt with this for a long time, and I and I fought against the whole sitting still thing, and focusing inwards. Because it's very unpleasant, when you having— when you want to move, you just want to move. Give me a hard ass workout, any day, over meditation, you know, because it's just like this energy, this agitation, but that's why I need to do it. So that I can break through that piece of the puzzle. And then you can tap into strengths that you didn't know you had, and quietness, and then you start to really reflect and like, for me, it has only really been, even in the last few months where I've been— My dad passed away, and it was one hell of a battle for his life. And I, yeah, it was a real— I was fighting against the system. And it was a mess of battle. It's all good when you win, but it's also good when you don't win. And so this one, just been— I was a bit of an existential crisis after that, because I'd lost this battle for my dad, who I loved dearly. And it made me go inward. It made me start to really question some of the biggest things because you start realising that life's short, shorter than I think it's gonna be. You want to understand why, and then going inside and doing some deep work and doing some trauma work and doing all that sort of hard stuff has been great. There's always good that comes out of shit. You never ever want to go through things like that, but when you do, you can always turn them into something, a learning curve of some sort. And having that, I was listening to you with Bedros Keulian, who's also is another one that I— Mark: Yeah, he's an awesome guy. Lisa: Yeah, he's just a rock star. in you, when you were talking about how you went through the zen process where you were, for a start, you started meditating, but you're just learning to quiet the mind. And then after a few months, that became then mindfulness. Where you're starting to observe yourself from outside in splitting the mind or somehow you put this and you're actually observing yourself as this higher self, if you like. Can you explain that a little bit? And how does that— Mark: Yeah, so glad you brought that up. Because I wanted to talk about that. Because you're right. It's— meditation is hard, especially for active people, which everybody, everybody listening, everybody in the Western world is pretty much hyperactive. Yep, that's what we're taught; it's reality. Like, ‘Go, go, go. Do, do, do.' We get over-committed. Now we have, you know, constant distraction with our iPhones and social media, and it's just gonna get worse, worse, worse. Wait until we get plugged in with a neural link, you know, like, wow. So we got to push back against that. The only way to push back against that is to disconnect from all that and to sit still, or stand still, or take a walk. But don't do anything, right. Don't do it for a goal. Don't do it to check it off a box. Don't do it to be the best meditator you know. Lisa: Tick that box.  Mark: It doesn't work, right? Lisa: That was what I was going to— Max: There's no goals here. Right? It's about becoming still, getting that clarity and this still water mind back, if you ever had it, but we had it when we were kids, of course, but in a different sense. So that you can evolve. You know, let me start there. I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose. And those two really kind of go hand-in-hand or hand-in-glove. You can't evolve if you're constantly doing. You actually will stay stuck. You'll keep getting your ass handed to you. You'll keep suffering. You'll keep feeling victimised. And you'll keep looking outward for the solutions. And you'll keep blaming other people, or society, or taxes, or the government, or God. Lisa: A lot of fingers are turned. Mark: The answers lie within, right? And so the only way to go inward is to slow down and just be quiet. Right? So it's imperative. Now, why do most people fail? A) Because everything I've just talked about, they haven't been taught this. And B) because they're body mind, their body brain is very, very agitated. It's amped up because you've been taking all this stress on throughout your life. So what I teach is that the first step in meditation practice isn't mindfulness. It isn't a mantra practice. It's just a box breathe, which is a pattern breathe, five-count in, five-count hold, and five-count out, five-count hold, or four, or three, if you have trouble with that. And just let that nostril breathing in that massaging that the vagus nerve, stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system. And it's bleeding off stress and bringing your body brain back into my balance.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: When your body brain is back into balance, your brain is going to experience that as a lower frequency rate. Lower frequency means fewer thoughts, right? If you're in gamma, it's like tick-tick, popcorn brain. But if you're in alpha, like listening to beautiful music, classical music, or you're maybe doing some journaling, your mind stops racing. It starts to get into— Lisa: A lovely alpha state of focus.  Mark: Yeah, and so the box breathing practice trains your mind to get back into alpha, trains your body to de-stress, and you do this. It might take you months, usually about three months. I— my clients have this extraordinary calming that comes over them. And they're already changed. But this is, you know, just the preparatory work, right? This also, for those who are working on their physical structure in their health and their weight, this also has enormous benefits because you begin to feel a lot better. And you begin, you know, you're starting to breathe in that life force again. You're getting more oxygen with every breath, and you're retraining the breathing patterns so this becomes your more natural state. If you, let me just pause here, if you train for 20 minutes a day, have a five-count box breath, that's three breaths per minute, over time, and might take a year or more, you're gonna eventually settle into a natural breath pattern of six breaths per minute, which is now proven to the optimal. Lisa: Exactly.  Mark: I've been doing this for years, I never knew that, it just settled out there to where six breaths per minute through the nose was standard for me, or a standard, and that's what will happen to you.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: Yeah. But those are full breaths, full exhales, getting all the toxins out there.  Lisa: Basically the exhale. Mark: It's enormously beneficial for your body, and everything starts to come back into balance: you start losing weight, you start eating better. Because you want to eat better, you start sleeping b

I'm Peter Serefine, and this is the Liberty Minute for Thursday, day 487 irrational fear of a virus. Biden and his Democrat colleagues continue to call election reform laws already passed in 17 states racist and the worst attack on democracy since the civil war, even though about 80% of voters, including minorities, want secure elections and voter ID. After allowing thousands of illegal immigrants to cross the southern border for over six months now, the Whitehouse said that Cuban refugees fleeing actual tyranny and oppression would be sent back. Could that be because Cuban immigrants tend to vote against socialism? There were a record 93,000 overdose deaths last year. A 29% increase over 2019. Huh...I wonder if the doomsday lockdowns contributed to that. Secretary of State Blinken has asked the UN Human Rights Council to investigate racism in the United States. The same human rights council that has China and Russia as members. That is like asking Jeffrey Epstein to investigate child trafficking. Join me in cutting the fog of politics in the Liberty Lighthouse, Saturday at 8 pm Eastern/5 pm Pacific on Mojo50 Radio and anytime at www.Liberty-Lighthouse.com. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/libertylighthouse/message

How to take six weeks off without stressing even a little bit. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back the Marketing Secrets podcast. Right now, I'm at Lake Powell. I've been on the boat, the houseboat and jet-skis, and we did a waterboard, it's a type of Flyboard where you literally feel like Ironman flying through the sky. We just got done wake surfing, our kids have been wake surfing. It's been an insane week and I'm here with my friend, John Jonas. I'll introduce you guys here in a second. And for me, it was a lot to take a week off. I had no cell phone access for a week and John hasn't worked in eight years, 12 years. Just kidding, he's basically taking six weeks off. He is the person in my life who somehow has figured out a systemized entire life. So he can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants. And so that's what we're talking about today is systemizing outsourcing and whole bunch of other stuff when we come back from the theme song. All right, so I'm back here. We're on top of the houseboat and I'm talking to John Jonas. Some of you guys know John, if not, he is the founder of onlinejobs.ph, which... Actually, do you want to tell them what it is and tell them about you? John Jonas: Yeah, thanks man. So when I was early on in my business, I just realized I needed help and finding help sucked. It was so hard. And everybody talked about outsourcing, outsourcing, outsourcing, and I tried India and it sucked. It did. Russell: The entire country. John: Well and then it's like, dude, I have nothing against the country. But outsourcing there was really hard and there's some really big cultural reasons why, and I won't get into it, whatever. And then you have Upwork, which was Elance and oDesk at the time, which is fine, except the whole system is based around 100% turnover. And as a small business owner, 100% turnover guaranteed in your business, that sucks, hiring a contract worker, that's so stinking hard. So one day I'm talking to John Brizzy, the owner of backcountry.com. And he says to me, "When you're ready to start outsourcing some of this stuff, make sure you go to the Philippines with it." And I was like, "Huh, really?" And he gave me some reasons why, and more than just like, "Oh, this is amazing," it gave me hope that maybe I'd find something different than what I had experienced before, because that was really the thing was there's so much loss of hope in outsourcing because it's just a babysitting job and people that you're outsourcing to suck and they can only do menial tasks. And so I hired this guy in the Philippines full-time, which he gave me a reference to hire someone full-time and I didn't know if I could do it. It took me two months to hire someone because I didn't know if I could keep someone busy full-time I didn't know if I could pay them I didn't know if they could do good work. It was the most liberating experience in my life. This dude's full-time job was doing anything I asked him to do. And yeah, dude, that was amazing. I taught him how to systematize this whole system that I had completely failed with on Upwork. It was Elance at the time, but I hired this guy to write articles and he wrote these articles and sent them back to me. And I was like, "Yes, I got these articles done," this was on Elance. And then I realized, "Oh, now the burden falls on me to do the rest of the work." And that's where most stuff breaks down is when it falls on you to do the rest of the work. So when I had this guy in the Philippines, I realized, "Oh no, he can write the article and then he just worked full-time for me. So I can teach him to do the posting and the headers and the resource boxes and the links and I can teach them how SEO works and he can do all the SEO." And this was like 2005. So since then, I've realized oh yeah, you can hire amazing people, programmers, designers, social media people, content writers, data entry people, lead generators, whatever it is, copywriters, you can hire a really good people. And in the Philippines, I was paying the company, this is 2005, I was paying them $750 a month they're paying him $250 a month for full-time work. So today that same person's probably going to be like $450 a month straight from you to them because of what online jobs is. Russell: Because you guys created a platform. Because prior to, so the first time I hired someone from the Philippines, there was a company I hired and they... I can't remember name of it. Agents of Value, yes. Agents of Value, yes. And I was so excited because it was like 700 bucks you get a full-time employee, which I was paying American wages prior to everyone and I was freaking out. And then yeah, like you said, you find that they're only making $250, $300. And so what John built is a really cool, I wouldn't call it a directory, it's more than that, but it's a place you go, you sign up for it, and then there's how many Filipinos are listed there right now? John: There's over a million Filipino profiles there. Yeah, so what I created was what I wanted for myself. So after a couple of years of hiring people through this agency, I went to them and they said, "Well do you want a programmer or a webmaster?" I was like, "I want a content writer." "Well do you want a programmer or a webmaster," was their response. And agencies, generally, this is how they are. They're going to three times mark up the salary and then they're going to give you the same person. They're going to go to online jobs today and try and find the person... They do, I know they do. So I created what I wanted, which was I just want to recruit some people on my own and I want to hire them and I want to pay them directly and there's no markup, so there's no salary markup. And there's no middleman telling me who I need to hire, giving me someone crappy who doesn't know anything, which is what Agents of Value did multiple times. And so now I can go and find someone, find the exact person I want. And it's crazy. I hired a programmer who was working for IBM and he's so dang good. Or I found a copywriter, actually, I hired a copywriter who wrote some ClickFunnels emails. And it's amazing what you can find on onlinejobs.ph. And the crazy thing about the Philippines, I had no idea at the time. This is why this guy's advice was so dang good. And he obviously knew, and I had no idea. So in the Philippines, there's a culture of honesty and loyalty and hard work and make people happy. So my guys in the Philippines have my credit cards, they have access to my email account, they have access to my servers. We've seen hundreds of thousands of people hire people in the Philippines and have seen very, very few people get ripped off. And almost every time when they do, it's because they tried to get the person to do some work and then not pay the person. And obviously, yeah, they're going to try and get paid. And then there's the loyalty thing. So the Philippines, their culture is loyal almost to a fault. So when you hire them, they'll never stop working for you as long as you gain their trust. So the first person I hired in 2005 still works for me today. Yeah, and he's amazing. He can do anything. When I hired him, he knew nothing. Today, he can do anything I want. So the culture makes such a difference of the Philippines versus elsewhere, especially for a small business owner. Russell: All right, so I want to tell a story and I'm not embarrassed, maybe a little bit. So you and I had a chance to go to Australia to speak at Mal Emery's event. Do you remember what year that was? John: 2012. Russell: Dang. So 2012. And for those of you who know me and know I wrote a book about the perfect webinar as my things I'm really good at closing people and selling from the stage and all that kind of stuff. So John and I fly down to Australia, we both speak on stage and you destroyed me. It was really embarrassing. I only sold a handful and John sold everybody in the room literally bought his... It was insane. But I'm telling you this because there was a story you told in there that I'm going to mess with the details, but I want you to share the story with people. Number one, they'll get to know you a little better. But number two, it's also I think a lot of you guys have probably heard me or other people talk about outsourcing and you're like, "Oh yeah," and maybe you hire someone here or there, but for you, there was something in your life that happened that made forced you to do it and then that ended up giving you the freedom that literally we've been here this week, everyone's stressing out. No one's got cell phone access and John's just having the best time ever. And you have six weeks in a row vacation time. What week are we on right now? John: Four. Week five. Russell: Week five of six and I'm like one weekend. I'm like, "Well, I'm good." So anyway, I want you to hear this story because it's powerful, but also I think I'm hoping you guys hear and realize that you don't have to wait for something tragic or scary like this to happen. But if you kind of try to force it in your mind, you can have something like this happen and give yourself freedom earlier. So with that said, here's John. John: So I've worked about 17 hours a week for the last 13, 14 years. And here's what happened. So my wife is seven months pregnant with our third child. This is 2007. We went to the doctor, he's run some tests and he says to my wife, "You have preeclampsia. And if you don't go on strict bed rest for the next three to five weeks, you're going to have a seizure and you're going to lose this baby." And to me, obviously, I was there with her and it was a shock. And on my way home from the doctor's office, I was just thinking, "I'm working full time and I have to two other kids and she has to be on strict bed rest. I'm not about to lose a baby over money." So I was thinking, "What am I going to do?" So when I get home, I sent an email to two of my guys in the Philippines. I had two guys in the Philippines at the time and I sent an email to them. And I just want you to know, as I tell you this, they had been with me for about 18 months. These were not guy. I pulled off the street. You're not going to hire someone new and this is going to work for you. It's going to take some time. But I told them, "Hey guys, here's my situation. I can't work. Here's why. I need you to take over everything I'm currently doing in my business." And so I... Everything, everything. For the next three weeks, I literally worked one hour. And that one hour... So after that day, when I got home, I sent them all the instructions I could, that one hour was just responding to their questions. And they took over my Google AdWords account and they took over my blog and they took over the marketing that I was doing. They took over the SEO that I was doing. They took over customer service. They took over everything I was currently doing. Three weeks later, my wife has the baby, this beautiful little girl Bailey, who just turned 14. And for the next two months, my wife struggled with postpartum depression. And so I just kept not working. It was a little bit more, it was one hour a week because she was allowed to get out of bed now. And so I spent three months not working basically. And it's expected to have a disaster with my business and came back to find my business had grown. And I'm not going to tell you it's because these guys were running the business. That's not the case. But the point here is that I had had the right help and my business didn't crash when I wasn't there. So from there, this is where you'll really recognize I hope what the possibilities of outsourcing are. So after these three months, I was like, "Well there's only so many times in a day you can take your kids to the golf course," and you get bored. Because that's what I was doing. I was taking my kids to the golf course twice a day. And so I started designing a business based around how far can I take this outsourcing thing? Because I had only had these guys doing menial tasks up to that point. And now I realized like, "Whoa, they're way better than I thought they were. And so can I build a business based around them doing all the work and me just being the CEO?" So I started designing this business. I'll tell you what it was. We were going to write reviews about products and post them on our website and then drive traffic to them and put affiliate links on all the reviews. So I record myself talking for 45 minutes explaining this whole thing. And I bought a domain and I sent the domain and my recording to this guy in Philippines. And again, he had been working for me for a while and he takes the domain, sets it up on my hosting account, sets up WordPress and changes the theme according as I've described and sends it back to me a couple days later and it was horrible. And I was like, "Oh crap." So I went back and described it better and better again. And we did this for about a week until we got it right. He got the website how I wanted it. It was amazing. So then he wrote the first review and it was terrible. And I was like, "Oh yeah, this outsourcing thing isn't as good as I thought it was." Russell: You're like, "No, I'll take it all to myself." For me, that's what I've been using. Like, "Well I'm done. I'm just going to myself." I give up usually at that point. John: That's not what I did. And because that's not my personality. I want to see if I can make this thing work really. So I worked with him through the review. I was like, "Okay, we've got to change this and this and this. And we've got to get more data from here. And we've got to do this." So we worked for a couple of weeks, got the review right. And I never wrote another review. So he had already done some SEO, but I start teaching him more SEO and he starts doing SEO and he starts doing some social marketing, even though social media wasn't really a thing. But we started doing Craigslist stuff. And we started doing RSS feeds and we started doing everything that I knew to do at the time, I did. Everything I knew to implement, I did. Which today all the things you know to implement would be build your funnel and start your Dream 100 and run Facebook ads to it and start doing some SEO maybe and get on a podcast or start a podcast. All these things that you know you should be doing I was doing, except I wasn't the one doing them. So that business in the first month made me about $200. Within three months, it was making three to $500 a month. Within six months, it was making a thousand dollars a month, within a year is making me 10 to $15,000 a month. And this dude in the Philippines, who, again, I told you they're super loyal and super honest, he built the whole thing. He joined the affiliate programs. He starts running Google AdWords on it. Because I taught him how to do it. He sends me a report every month. "Here's how much money we spent. Here's how much money we made. Here's what I think I can do to improve the business and make more money." And that was where I realized like, "Oh yeah, these aren't just dummies that can only do menial work. They can only follow exact instructions." No, he read between the lines so many times he figured out so much stuff. And I don't want you to think that he built this whole business for me and I didn't do anything. Because I did. I was the CEO. I knew what was going on. I knew what had to happen. But I never touched it. I don't touch WordPress. I don't write content now. Russell: So let me ask you, so I know that there's people listening right now who are thinking, "Well why doesn't the guy just make his own blog and then just do it himself? And then he'll make the 10 grand a month for himself and not have to just cut you out of it." And I've thought of that as well. I'm curious why specifically Filipinos, why that's not an issue for you. John: So yeah, because in India, that's the first question they ask. And that's our experience with outsourcing is, "Well what's your business model here?" I explained to him the business model. In the Philippines, they're not entrepreneurial. They don't want to steal your business. They don't want to steal your idea. They don't want to do it on their own. That's too risky for them. They are really job oriented and they want a job. They want a long-term stable job that they can take home and reliably take care of their family. And I've seen that so, so many times. I have people that have worked for me since 2005 and 2006 and 2008 and nine and 10. And they also work with me. Russell: Awesome, okay, my last question for you then is I think we had this conversation last year. So John's my Lake Powell buddy. And it's our third time renting house boat together, fourth time on the lake together. But anyway. Last year we had this conversation, I'm not sure if you remember it, but it was impactful to me because for me, those who know me, I'm a perfectionist, especially comes to my funnels and copy and design and everything's going to be reviewed by me because anyway, I'm super annoying that way. But our stuff does really well. And so I'm always thinking it has to be perfect to go live and get shipped out there and actually be a live thing. And last year was talking to you about it. And your philosophy is obviously different than mine. You were more, do you remember this conversation we had? And you were talking about how you're like 80% is it's fine. The extra 20% is... Do you remember this conversation at all? I'd love to get just your mindset on that because it's something I could use, but probably other people as well where it doesn't have to be 100% to make money. It's got to be close. John: So there are some things where it needs to be 100%. But most things, it's more important to get it done than to get it done perfectly. And so for me, my philosophy is ship, get it out there. So just before we left, we're driving down here and I checked my project management and saw that they had completed this big long piece of content that we had. And I said to them, "I'm not going to review this, but publish it because I'm sure it's good enough. You guys are good and publish it." And when I get back, maybe I'll review it. Maybe I won't, I don't know. Maybe the task will be gone and I'll never see it. But to me, just getting it out there and having people see it is more likely to tell you the problems with it than I am to tell the problems by reading it myself and to creating a bottleneck myself to let me give you 16 more things that I don't think are perfect. Even though you guys think it's perfect, there's three other people that have seen it, and I don't think so, but they do, which tells me maybe I'm wrong. I also don't have, and this is a personality thing, I don't have the design eye that you do and I don't care as much. I want people to see it and I want people read it and ship it, get alive. We ship software with bugs all the time because then it's live and then people will instantly tell you, "Oh, this is a problem." "Oh, okay. We'll fix it. Sweet." Russell: As opposed to figuring out all the problems, mistakes on your own. Oh man. Well I hope you guys enjoyed this episode, it's a little different, but I don't normally interview. I don't even know John, you're like the second person to ever be on my podcast besides me. But I think it's good for everyone to understand. So for those who are in some part of their business where they're trying to think of if they can use outsourcing more, join Online Jobs, and this is not a paid ad. I get nothing from this other than as long as online jobs keeps making money off of a boat buddy at Lake Powell, otherwise I've got to pay for this whole thing by myself. But there's no advertising, but let them know how Online Jobs works. Because it's different. It's not like Agents of Value. You're hiring and paying them and could you walk them through how it works and wants to get the count and how to set it all up and everything? John: Yeah, so Online Jobs is kind of like indeed.com, but for the Philippines. So you go on and you post a job and it's free to post a job. And then depending on your job, you'll get a few or hundreds of job applicants. And if you get hundreds of job applicants, that's a problem, you can't go through hundreds of applicants. That sucks. But you'll get a bunch of applicants. And then you can see the applications for free. You can do all that for free. You just can't contact anybody. You don't get anybody's contact information until you pay. And it's $69 for a month and then you get to contact as many people as you want, really. Or you can reply to everybody who sent you a job application, if you want. And then you just interview them, you're going to use their Disk profile. Russell talks about Disk profiles. And I think it's amazing. Almost everybody on there has a Disk profile and you're going to send them emails and ask them tons of questions. And here's a little bit of advice, don't do a Skype interview right off the bat. That's the first thing everyone wants to do is get on the phone with them. And that's the last thing you should be doing when you do interviews with people in the Philippines. They don't want to do it. So do that at last when you've narrowed it down to three. You can give a test task. You're completely on your own. Every application will come to your email inbox if you want. It's your Gmail inbox. They'll also be in your online jobs inbox, but then you interview them and you hire them and you pay them. And we don't take a cut of any of that. If you're interested in more, I have, very similar to Russell's one funnel away, I have the one VA away challenge. So I will walk you through the hiring process and I guarantee you'll find a great person if you go through my process at one VA way. It's my process of how I hire great people. I never think, "I don't know if I'm going to find someone good this time or not." I'm going to find someone good. I know I am because I've done it so many times. Russell: So onevaaway.com? John: onevaaway.com Russell: Awesome, all right. And I'm going to product this. So obviously I have click funnels that whole business and there's support and there's team and everything. But we started building some of these side businesses and some fun projects I was working on and all of them have customers coming in now and customer support and all these things. And I was like, "Aaaa!” and so I asked John, I'm like, "Hey, what would you do if you're me?" He's like, "Dude, you're an idiot. Of course go to Online Jobs." So we did, sent them to the count, we hired three new Filipinos, they're on a Slack channel with us and they have access to our help desk. Our help desk has all these little sub companies we're building and they're cross-training on all the different products and they're awesome. Every morning they check it on Skype, like, "Good morning, we're here." And then they check out at night like, "We're done," and they have questions asked in Slack, and then they're just cross-training all of our products. And so we'll just keep adding more products in there and they're supporting all of them and it's amazing. And we've got three right now. We'll probably have more as we start growing and stuff like that. And I'm getting really excited about bringing in more to do more tasks. Everybody can do funnels. You guys are training now on a lot of them are doing funnels, a lot of them are doing copywriting, a lot of them are doing a lot of other stuff too. So anyway, it's exciting. So go to onlinejobs.ph or onevaaway.com. And with that said, hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Get your mind thinking about outsourcing and the Philippines and a whole bunch of cool things like that. So in fact, one time you gave me... So I've done this four or five times. We build up huge scenes. At one time I had this guy named Mateo we hired from the Philippines and he built a team of like 30 writers for me, back when we were doing SEO really, really hard. We were cranking on it. Anyway, it's fun to do and fun to learn and to get to know some really, really cool people. So anyway, hope that helps you guys appreciate you all and we'll see you guys on the next episode. Bye.

On this week's show Patrick Gray and Adam Boileau discuss recent security news, including: REvil takes a vacation Kaseya finally patches VSA Morgan Stanley data exposed by third party Accellion hack CISA issues emergency directive on MS print spooler bug Patrick and Adam dream up ways for the US government to pressure vendors MORE This week's show is brought to you by Senetas. They've traditionally made layer 2 encryption gear but, as you'll hear, they're moving with the times! Senetas CTO Julian Fay joins us this week to talk through a bunch of stuff – what they've been working on, a really interesting project they had to abandon because of COVID and the latest news on the move to quantum-resistant crypto. Links to everything that we discussed are below and you can follow Patrick or Adam on Twitter if that's your thing. Show notes Ransomware attacks: Pressure grows on Biden to curb costly hacks - The Washington Post Biden tells Putin the U.S. will take ?any necessary action? after latest massive ransomware attack - The Washington Post Russian-speaking ransomware gang goes offline Kaseya Left Customer Portal Vulnerable to 2015 Flaw in its Own Software – Krebs on Security (3) Patrick Gray on Twitter: "That's great! Do they have a time machine, too? Where can we buy tickets?!" / Twitter ACSC: Australian organizations compromised through ForgeRock vulnerability - The Record by Recorded Future Morgan Stanley discloses data breach that resulted from Accellion FTA hacks | Ars Technica Dell Wyse Management Suite subject to database exposure, session hijacking | The Daily Swig Microsoft Issues Emergency Patch for Windows Flaw – Krebs on Security Microsoft Patch Tuesday, July 2021 Edition – Krebs on Security cyber.dhs.gov - Emergency Directive 21-04 Microsoft discovers critical SolarWinds zero-day under active attack | Ars Technica Beyond Kaseya: Everyday IT Tools Can Offer ‘God Mode' for Hackers | WIRED China tightens control over cybersecurity in data crackdown - ABC News Suspected Chinese hackers return with unusual attacks on domestic gambling companies Microsoft Bug Bounty Programs Year in Review: $13.6M in Rewards – Microsoft Security Response Center Feds indict “The Bull” for allegedly selling insider stock info on the dark web | Ars Technica UK judge gives US a shot to appeal denial of Julian Assange's extradition Over 780,000 email accounts compromised by Emotet have been secured - The Record by Recorded Future Hiltzik: The threat of ransomware - Los Angeles Times Matt Bevan on Twitter: "Wow @youtube @googledownunder this is a full-blown deepfake ad running on your platform... you probably shouldn't have those. https://t.co/S19nQYR9iH" / Twitter Troy Hunt on Twitter: "Huh - what - why?! “Ransomware-hit law firm gets court order asking crooks not to publish the data they stole” https://t.co/ugheahUmgw" / Twitter Ransomware-hit law firm gets court order asking crooks not to publish the data they stole • The Register

Short and sweet. Conspiracy theories everywhere, with some known and some fabricated by the hosts. But technically aren't all theories invented before they are proven.? Huh. Well, get after it. Check us out at Stoner-Babble.com or drop on over to Twitter where you can find us @babblestoner. Peace. 

Who is YouTube Advertising right for, and how to top brands get big results from it? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Linx Digital founder Shash Singh breaks down his approach to YouTube advertising. Shash and the team at Linx are YouTube ad specialists. It's all they do, and as a result of that specialization, they've been able to get great results for a wide variety of brands across a range of industries. In this episode, Shash explains how YouTube advertising works and shares the ad formats that he believes deliver the biggest bang for your marketing buck. He also digs into details around how to film your ad, how long it should be, and how to set up audience targeting. Check out the full episode to get the details. (Transcript has been edited for clarity.) Resources from this episode: Check out the Linx Digital website Check out Shash's YouTube channel Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth and this week, my guest is Shash Singh who is the CEO of Linx digital. Welcome to the podcast, Shash. Shash (00:32): Yeah. Thanks for having me on here. I'm really excited. Kathleen (00:35): Yeah, there should be a fun conversation because we are going to be talking about YouTube advertising, which is something that I have touched on a little bit in former interviews, but we really haven't dug into to any level of depth. And I do feel like there's so much potential there, but also so much potential to screw it up if you don't know what you're doing. And so I'm really excited to pick your brain, but before we do that, can you just tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and Linx digital and how you came to be doing what you're doing? Shash (01:06): Yeah, so basically I got started with YouTube ads five or six years ago. But one of my friends, he runs the fitness program and like a fitness coaching business and his his business called you know, body. And he basically wanted me to run YouTube ads. And at that point I'd never run paid ads ever in my life before. So it was an interesting experience, but within two weeks we were profitable and I think within three weeks, we're scaling to $5,000 a day ad spend. So it was pretty impressive in terms of how powerful this platform was. And after that, I kind of fell in love with YouTube advertising, did it for a bunch more clients started an agency about it. And now we do trainings about it. So basically just kind of really enjoyed going in deep into this platform. Kathleen (01:49): And so does Linx digital really only do YouTube advertising or does it do other things as well? Shash (01:56): Well we occasionally do some Facebook advertising or some little search advertising, but our core focus is YouTube ads. So that's what people come to us for. Kathleen (02:04): I love that. I love that you've been brave enough to sort of plant your flag in the sand and say, this is what we're going to do, and we're going to specialize it in it. And we're not afraid to, you know, go really niche. I think that's, you know, these days with digital marketing things change so quickly and the only way to really develop deep expertise is to focus. So that's awesome. All right, so, so let's get into this topic of YouTube advertising. I guess I would start with who is YouTube advertising, right? For, because I have to imagine there, there are certain types of businesses or certain audiences you may be able to be trying to reach that are a better fit for it than others. Shash (02:44): Yeah. Honestly, at this point, I'd say you do, that's going to work for a lot of different types of businesses. Even you know, B2B, B2C e-commerce courses, anything really lead generation for local. The main thing you have to keep in mind is can you make the numbers work? Right? So for example, if you're selling an e-commerce product, you want to sell something that's a little bit higher price, because if you're selling something that's $20, it's most likely not going to work in a way that's profitable for you. On the other hand, if you're selling an $80 e-commerce product, I usually have a much higher acceptable cost per acquisition, and that kind of makes those numbers work. So that's the key thing there in terms of audiences at this point, pretty much everybody's on YouTube. I believe one of the fastest growing segments on YouTube is actually older demographics, right? Shash (03:33): So I don't think it's an issue of like, oh, is this person on YouTube? Even if you're in B2B, right? You can actually use some of these advanced audiences that Google has. For example, they have custom audiences where you can plug in a competitor's URL and basically Google will go and try and find people that are similar to that. People who visit that website. So we've even for many B2B companies basically it can work quite well. And we've worked with some SAS companies as well that have done really well with YouTube ads. So really can work for a lot of different businesses. Ultimately just want to make sure that, you know, you have a solid funnel and a backend and the numbers work out for you. Kathleen (04:12): So, so it sounds like almost any type of business could use it. And then you said something which resonated with me, which is just like, you know, everybody's using YouTube, right. I certainly everyone from my 14 year old son who is on it basically all day long to myself, like I watch things on there as well. So I think it's safe to say that we're all familiar with YouTube as users, but advertising is a very different side of YouTube. So could you just talk a little bit about about that? Like how is YouTube advertising set up? What are the different types of ads we'll start there and then we'll see where that takes us. Shash (04:55): So you do have a bunch of different ad formats. The one like we like to focus in on are the in-stream ads. So the in-stream ads are basically the ads that show up before you're about to watch a video. So let's say you click on a video and before, you know, you have another ad show up, it's like the five seconds to skip. Basically you have five seconds and then you can skip afterwards and yeah, that's the main format, right? And that's basically the format that gets the best results for us. Now, there are other ad formats, for example, this responsive which kind of shows up in a bunch of different places, but typically most of our budget is spent on those entry mats. And then there's a lot of other formats as well. Right? So we have the basically for the in-stream ads, what we do is we use TrueView for action, which is really focused on getting conversions, but there's also ads like bumper ads and for six second in-stream ads that basically you can't skip, there's non-skippable 15 and 30 second ads as well. So there's different ad formats, depending on what you're trying to do. If you're doing direct response TrueView for action, in-stream ads are what you want to do. Kathleen (05:57): True view for action. Okay. I have a lot of questions. All right. The first one is why do you focus on in-stream? What is it about in-stream that, that you feel is so valuable? Shash (06:11): Well, I mean, it gets results now that are just like discovery ads, which are kind of like, you know, you'll, you'll click on it. It shows up in the search results, you click on it and it will take you to a video. However, in-stream just works really, really well. Right? Like it's pretty much in every account. It's like the majority of our budget because it just performs so well. You're basically able to just go in and grab people's attention and be able to compel them to take action. And YouTube has put a lot of, Google and YouTube have put a lot of resources into making that whole in-stream ad format work really well. Kathleen (06:41): Okay. So, so you mentioned Google, Google, and YouTube, the relationship there, you know, people who are listening, I'm sure have done lots of advertising on different platforms like LinkedIn or Facebook. Many of them have probably done Google pay-per-click, what's different about the YouTube advertising kind of interface and management. Shash (07:03): So basically the YouTube so like obviously Google owns YouTube and because of that, you're using Google ads as a platform. So if you're running search campaigns, display campaigns, you do campaigns, essentially doing it from the same account, same place. So that makes things a lot easier. And one of the benefits of Google owning YouTube is you get to use Google's massive source of data, which is the world's biggest search engine is Google. And the world's second biggest search engine is YouTube. So the massive scale is something that really is cool with YouTube ads especially because you can go and leverage the data from Google in the sense of somebody can search something on google.com and, you know, they could search for example, the best enterprise software for small electricians, right? And you could target that search term on YouTube. So you could show that person an ad on YouTube. So that's really powerful because a lot of times these search terms on google.com are extremely expensive, extremely cost per click is very high, but then if you reach target, basically if you're able to target them with a video ad, you're going to be able to get significantly cheaper click costs. So these custom intent audiences basically are incredibly, incredibly powerful. And one of the key reasons why I love YouTube ads so much. Kathleen (08:17): So, so you use the Google ads interface and there, it sounds like there are a lot of different ways that you can set up targeting. You mentioned targeting for keyword search intent. Can you, you know, I'm familiar with a lot of the other ways that Google allows targeting. Can you use those same targeting approaches such as custom audience match lists lookalikes you know, what are the options there? Shash (08:49): So, so as I mentioned, custom intent, which is basically a type of custom audience where you target people based on what they search on Google. There's custom affinity, which is a custom audience based on a URL or even an app that you can put in. So you could literally put in your competitor's URL and Google will try to find people that are similar to that. So, and the reason they can do that is because they have all this data from Google analytics from basically you know, obviously search engine, et cetera, where they have massive troves of data to make these assumptions and help you with these audiences. And these audiences often are favorites and on other audience types include keywords. So basically based on the metadata of YouTube videos, so the title, the description, and so on, where you're able to target videos that are about a certain topic. Shash (09:39): You also have placements where you can specify the target channels are videos. So if you have a competitor and they have a YouTube channel, you can show your ad in front of them, which is really, really powerful. If you're basically trying to get your competitor's audience base right into your funnel. And then there's in-market audiences, which is Google's basically audiences of people that are interested in buying something. So there are in market audiences for let's say, automobiles or home and garden for beauty, there's like all kinds of categories, right? So you could dig in and this, I believe there's even like hair, hair extensions for hair lashes. Yeah. So you literally have so many audience types. There's topics, which are videos about certain topics, like broad topics there's affinity, which is basically based on interests. So it's like, oh, these people are interested in X, Y Zed. And then there's also similar audiences, which is kind of Google's version of lookalike audiences. So there are a lot of different options. And a lot of times in certain pumps, some work really well, some work don't work well, but because of you have this vast number of options, there's definitely a lot of different things you can do with that. Kathleen (10:50): Wow. So you mentioned earlier cost, how does the cost per click compare on YouTube to maybe other forms of Google ads, LinkedIn, Facebook, et cetera. Shash (11:05): So the cost per click, for example, as compared to Google search, it'll be significantly lower. As compared to let's say display, it's going to be more expensive because it displays usually far less qualified clicks. And as compared to Facebook, it can really depend on niche. Some niches, it can be a little bit lower, some niches, it can be higher but the traffic is very, very qualified. Typically find that YouTube graphic and works well. And usually they're, long-term buyers that people who are usually very interested, especially if you're targeting them with a targeting option that, you know, they're basically, let's say they're watching a video about that top. Right. That's a really good lead. Kathleen (11:42): Yeah. Interesting. So, I mean, it sounds like it makes sense to consider for almost any business. I think the thing that might seem intimidating to people is like, it's video. Right? I got to, I got to create a video, correct. Like if you're doing an industry mad, you're creating video for your advertising. Right. Shash (12:01): Absolutely. That's, that's something that scares a lot of people. They, but it's actually not that hard. So for example, if if you're running an ad for, let's say a software company, right. It's not that hard. You could literally take kind of a, you know, basically a selfie video as like a selfie iPhone camera, and then pair that with a lapel mic and be able to shoot simple ads. There are a lot of people who run softwares that have been able to do that. Now, obviously you can go the whole production route, but basically what Grammarly or monday.com have done, but you can just start simple with a selfie video ad. So the key thing to understand is you've got to start somewhere and that video in general is a huge competitive advantage today, if you're not using video, it's basically one of the formats of communication. That's just the most effective and consumers love video, right? There's been so many studies on it, landing pages with video, typically perform better product pages with video, perform better. People kind of want to see and watch basically video of what they're about to buy because you get so much more information than images and touch. So it's absolutely something that's you, you, you should dive into. And basically any business that has a core competency competency than video, typically their marketing efforts just do so much better. Kathleen (13:18): So you talked about using your cell phone camera and a lapel mic to create video, but I have to admit I'm skeptical because I feel like, yes, it's easy to do those kinds of videos, but I also have to believe that there are certain things that you need to do to create a video that's really going to drive conversions because it's not about just like getting your video out there. It's obviously about, you know, inspiring action. So can you maybe like break down what you found in your experience makes for a high converting video? Shash (14:54): Absolutely. So you need to follow a structure and you need to basically be able to hit those persuasion triggers. The first piece of that puzzle is the hook, right? Like you've got to grab their attention basically the way you want to think about it, as you need to like basically grabbed them by the throat would be like pay attention. So the way we do that is real often say a controversial statement are we'll call up, call out our iden audio. Our we'll call out our ideal audience with their major pain point. Right? So we'll say something like, Hey, are you let's, let's go with a local electrician example. Right. I don't know why I came up with that idea, but let's say, are you a local, are you an electrician? That's just tired of of your expensive software bills for a program that you don't even know how to use. Shash (15:43): Right. and then basically that steep and you've grabbed their attention. And it's also something that kind of calls them out and they're like, oh yeah, this, this ad is for me. Maybe he has a, there might be a solution to this pain point I'm having write down. Right? So the key to any YouTube ad is really knowing your customer's pain point and being able to really grab their attention with that pinpoint. Right? So they're, you know, motivated to keep watching. And after that, what you'll want to do is you will want to start building some authority and credibility. You'll want to show them how your product works and why they should even consider basically checking out whatever you're giving them. And you'll want to make sure that it's very strong call to actions. So to give you to continue on with the treadmills as electrician. Shash (16:29): So let's say, Hey, are you in a local electrician? That's just tired of overly expensive software that you don't know how to use and that's buggy. And it's basically, it's not helping your business in any way. So that's, and then the second part of that I imagine would be something like, so I used to be a local electrician had that, that was a huge pain point for me until I decided to build my own software specifically for us, because, you know, I'm an electrician as well. And so I decided to build this software called whatever. And we basically used we talked to thousands of electricians to figure out how to build a best solution. That's, you know, doesn't have let's say this common issue that they have typically that their software or this issue, and then actually show them the product and perhaps show them that. Shash (17:24): Yep. Imagine if you could just let's say call up all or imagine if you could send out a quote and just one easy click, right. And imagine if you could let's say be able to get your subcontractors to bill you in one easy system. Right? So now you're actually showing them what that is about. So from there, you'll go into call to action and tell them, Hey, if you want a free trial click, the link or below, or if it's like, for example, what we do a lot is send them to some sort of case study. So one angle you could go with this is if you want to see a free case study on how we use this tool to double the revenue of our business in less than a year and all the tactics and strategies we use, then that's a big to do it. Shash (18:07): So a lot of this, you know, as you brainstorm it, you come up with it, but you kind of have that base structure, which is cook. You want to call your audience out. You want to show them the products and its benefits. You want to build some party and building, right? Like why is a, you know, for e-commerce products, right? Often I've seen some of them use research or other others have used, you know, personal experience, right? Like I've actually done this or I've, I've been in your position. So that's one way of building a party and credibility. Another way is, Hey, I've helped over 5,000 people with this problem. And then from there, your first call to action, where you tell them, Hey, click the link above or below to go get this free training, free trial, free you know, basically lead magnet, case study, et cetera. Shash (18:51): Right. And then from there, you might want to show some social proof and show them that, Hey yeah. Maybe show them as basically a sliding wall of testimonials and the videos. So like half, half the video just be testimonials are, you can even clip in videos of happy clients, like quick 10, second clips. It could even be potential, you know, other forms of social proof, like you've featured in Forbes magazine, et cetera. So from there, you can have another call to action because you always want to have at least two call to actions and you wanna tell them, Hey, click the link below to go sign up for this free trial. And the key here that you got to understand is once you actually start running basically YouTube ads, you will get a good feel for it. But also the biggest thing to do is you gotta be, you gotta do preparation for us, right? So number one is use this tool called Vid Tao dot com, vid Tao, T a o.com. And this is a completely free tool. That's what we use to find really great video ads. So we will just use that and be able to just basically enter in a competitor's name final to video ads. And then you can see how many views that ad got. And typically if it's gotten a ton of views, you know, that that ad has done really, really well. Kathleen (20:08): Oh, that's a good tip. It sounds like timing is really key. So you mentioned in the beginning having a hook and is that because with in-stream ads? I mean, at least my experience has been like, you have a certain number of seconds before the person is given the option to skip the ad. Shash (20:25): Yeah. So you have five seconds before they're given the option to skip that. So you want to really grab their attention in the first five seconds. Kathleen (20:31): So you have to have the hook quick, you know, don't bury the lead as they say in journalism. Okay. And then, and then I also would imagine from a timing standpoint, that overall length of the video is pretty important. Like have, do you see people drop off after a certain amount of time? Is there like a standard length that you think performs really well? Shash (20:54): I would say we've had ads from 45 seconds to three, four minutes long work. Typically what I say the ad is as long as it needs to be. So don't try to artificially make it longer, but if you need to add more length, do cover the key persuasion points or the cover, the key benefits of your product. You may need to add a little bit more to it, right? Because some products are softwares may just need more explanation, right? So our, some might be super simple and might only require a 62nd ad so that ultimately the length is something you can test, but the key is you don't want any fluff in there. If there's fluff, you want to get rid of it. Kathleen (21:34): And is your call to action always at the end? Or do you ever have anything sort of in the middle Shash (21:39): Typically two call to actions at the minimum, sometimes even three, but typically one call to action. That's maybe, you know, somewhere in the middle, right? Like at least 30, 45 seconds in, and then you'll have the second and third call to actions be a bit later. They could be different, but usually you'll, if you're, let's say sending them to a case study, right. You, there's probably only like a couple of different ways to say, click the link above or below to go check out this case study. Right. you could do different variations, but it's like in the first one you could focus on like click, click the link above or below to check out this case study where we show you how we doubled our client's revenue with a strategy. And then the second one could be perhaps another benefit point, click the link up or below to see how the reduced amount of time you know, our client works in his business by 50%, right? Like it, if you have perhaps multiple parts of the case study, you can kind of play on that and use different CPAs to basically get clicks from people who are looking for different things. Kathleen (22:42): Okay. So, so let's say somebody does this, they get their video, all done, they get it set up, they have their audience ready to go. And then they go to launch the ad from a budget standpoint. How much do you think somebody should expect to spend in the beginning in order to have a viable chance of the ad being successful? Shash (23:02): So with YouTube ads, I would recommend a minimum of a hundred dollars a day as a test budget. That typically gives you some good data fairly fast with, if you're trying to be more aggressive, you can go up 200, 300 a day. Usually you'll want multiple ads. So the one to test the ads, the hubs you can look at and you can edit them in that way, you can get some variations and you can see which hook grabs the most attention. And then but we typically will also recommend that, okay, you want to have a couple different bodies, right? So we might have two different pubs, two different bodies, that's four variations. And that allows you to kind of have a much better idea of what's working and not working. And then based on which ad does the best you can go and modify the landing page to basically be congruent with that messaging. Shash (23:51): Ultimately it comes down to testing a lot of ads and then tweaking your landing pages to be able to figure out what's working and not working, or sometimes you'll get lucky. And your first kind of ad and landing page combination just works amazing. If you've done a lot of Facebook ads and search ads, it's going to be a lot faster for you because you already know the process of testing kind of creators. You already know how media buying works. If it's your first time doing media buying, it's probably going to take a little bit longer. Kathleen (24:17): So that was going to be one of my questions. So it's like once you get it all set up and it's running, how much time should you give it before you like make that keeper cut decision? Shash (24:29): That's a good question. Ultimately what I would say is it depends on a few things, right? The first thing is before you even run ads, you've got to figure out if it's realistic to make YouTube ads work for your offer. What we find is higher ticket offers for well e-commerce offers that a higher price info-product offers at a higher price or SAS products that are either, either you have some way of collecting money up front, or you have, you know, basically you're okay with, you know, spending a couple of months of basically revenue from the recurring to get that right. So if you're selling a software, you know, your lifetime value is like $900 and that's over nine months, let's say it's 99 a month, nine. So nine months or 10 months, that's a $900. And let's say, it's the average cost per acquisition for a hundred dollars a month. Shash (25:23): Customer is $350. So if you have venture capital, then that's a no-brainer deal because you know, you're going to make $900 and you spent $350, however, it's, you don't have venture capital. Then that makes it really tricky because you don't have three and a half months of cashflow to basically put into it. So what you need to do is figure out a creative solution and usually software companies that have been able to do that, what they do is they'll typically either do a bundle. So you'll have maybe a year upfront or they'll perhaps have a training or some sort of front end offers. So what that, what I've seen softwares like click funnels do is they will literally have a $997 info product that as their front end offer and then click funnels to bundled in the back. And I've seen this with multiple different niches. Shash (26:05): It's basically you have the training program, but maybe a couple months of the software. And then because you're collecting a thousand dollars upfront, you're profitable on the front end, and then you also have the recurring on the backend, and that's just purely a way of how you structure your offer. Now, on the other hand, if you're trying to just, you know, basically let's say you have a 10 month based customer retention rate, they stay for 10 months and you make $900 from that. But the issue is that you're spending $350 to get them and you don't have the capital for that. Then your YouTube is not going to work for you unless you figure out either a venture capital or you figure out how to structure your in a way where you collect that money upfront. So that's really, really important is just figure that out before you run ads. Kathleen (26:49): Okay. That makes sense. And then once you're running your ads, what's, what is your kind of routine for how often do you check back in and kind of watch performance so that you're able to tweak and optimize? Shash (27:03): I'm checking every day. So every single day go in and chat. So basically the way we optimize is on the ad level. So, you know, there's the campaign level does the ad group level and then this the ad level. So we usually just look at all the ads and if an ad starts getting out of KPIs, then we'll just pause it. Kathleen (27:19): Okay. All right. So let's shift gears for a second and we've talked a lot about how it works and kind of what you should be doing and watching. Let's talk about some examples, cause you've worked with a number of different clients. Can you share like some stories, success, stories, or examples of where you've done YouTube ads and what kind of results you've been able to get with them? Shash (27:41): Yeah. So for example, B2B, the ran ads for a software company called helium 10, I think they probably spend like a couple of hundred thousand dollars over the lifetime. And it was, it was a pretty good traffic source for them fairly profitable in terms of their long-term customer value in terms of companies that are more in the info-product space. So if you, nobody's a really good example because basically I got in there started running the ads and we're spending a new year's 5,000 a day and making 10 to 15,000 a day back. And it also got him device magazine because the ad was just so so interesting and so controversial that he was kind of talking about it. Shash (28:28): I see. So it was a nice little bonus as well on top of the profit. So that's a great example of where not only did the generate really great direct response results, but we also ended up getting a lot of branding out of it because a ton of YouTubers started, started making videos about it's add a ton of people on different farms, started talking about him. Everybody just started talking about the ad and, you know, it led to the point where the organic growth from the ad was probably just as powerful as the pay pros from the ad. Other clients we've worked the amazing selling machine, the renter ads for a couple of years. And yeah, YouTube was just a huge, huge basically revenue source for them generated multi-millions from YouTube. And ultimately just came down to there. They had a really good funnel and the ads were really good. Shash (29:16): So we scripted a lot of these ads and then they will just execute it because they just had a videographer and the founders, Matt and Jason would just jump on the camera and shoot ads. They were really good about it. They've all finished ads. So that's a great example as well. So yeah, basically different niches indestructible shoes, for example, that's an e-commerce brand. So we were able to generate 1.2 million for them with e-commerce YouTube ads. So e-commerce can work as well. E-Commerce is often easier because of the fact that there's less competition. You just got to figure out the video part. So you've got to put more effort into the video for them we found a production agency that we partnered with to create video ads and those video ads just absolutely did so, so well because they were well thought out well-produced you know, kind of just there was effort put into it, right? So if you're doing e-commerce YouTube ads, you do have to put effort into it unlike with Facebook where you can just put an image ad on there. Kathleen (30:11): Yeah, that makes sense. What do you see as the biggest mistakes that brands make when they start doing YouTube advertising? Shash (30:19): So usually the biggest mistake I see is they've tried to take their Facebook ads, creative and strategy, and use that for YouTube ads. So Facebook ads, campaign and optimization strategy, audience strategies, and then also the creators where, you know, on Facebook, a lot of times you can run like the super simple video ads, just slide shows, and there's no voiceover, there's just some music on the background and they do well on Facebook, but on YouTube, they don't work because on YouTube number one, people expect the human touch, right? They at the very least expect a human voice, even if there's not a person in the video, even if it's not after they want somebody that's guiding them through this video, right. They don't want it to be kind of just like background music because of the fact that everything on YouTube has basically a voice, you know, even music videos have a voice. Shash (31:07): There's usually somebody that's a lot of commentary videos that people will share their screen or, you know, show like a video game while they're commenting or they'll do animation with a voiceover or they'll have live action where they're basically in front of the camera, even if it's selfie style or if it's just them pop in front of camera. But this all is that human element. Right. And a big part of that is when you're running a YouTube ad, right? The video ad isn't muted by default, while on Facebook, a lot of times, you know, you'll see a video ad on the, on the newsfeed and they're all automatically muted, right? You have to click the button to listen to sob. So that's something that just makes a huge difference where you need to make sure you have that voice or human element to it. Kathleen (31:48): Is it important to have captions on your video ads and YouTube Shash (31:53): It's worth testing? I don't think it's absolutely essential. It does help as a visual aid. It doesn't even necessarily need to be like captions of every single word you say, but it could be literally like key key emphasis moments. So you could emphasize that, but we've definitely used a lot of captions in our video ads and that definitely helped significantly. And in split tests, we've run. However, in certain ads you want to just make sure it doesn't look, you know, if you have a really cinematic app typing captions on the bottom that are like hard coded and it's, it just looks can be distracting. Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah. Kathleen (32:25): Interesting. All right. We're going to change gears again because I have two questions that I always ask my guests. And I'm curious to hear your take on these first being of course we talk all about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a particular company or individual you think is really setting the standard for what it means to be a great inbound marketer these days, inbound Shash (32:46): Marketers? Huh? That's a great question. I would definitely say in terms of pure marketing genius, I like Alex Becker. He's, he's got really good marketing skills, some of the best I've seen. Yeah, I think he's just really good at understanding human psychology and being able to hit those triggers and pain points and being, you know, not necessarily being the most sophisticated marketer, but being the most efficient and effective. Like he's very good at that. So I really, really liked his his marketing methods. I also think this marketer it's that whole crew over there, they're doing a great job. I love to just cut out things. Yeah, those, those two are two that come to mind. Kathleen (33:34): You just, you just cut out when you said your second one, it like totally cut out. So can you start over when you said, I also think and just, just start there. Shash (33:43): Yeah. Yeah. So I also think that my second pick would be Ryan Deiss and the whole Digital Marketer crew. They just do such an excellent job. They're really, really good. Kathleen (33:53): Yeah. They're great. I know those guys and they're very sharp and Ryan is a real go-getter. Awesome. All right. Second question. Most of the marketers I speak with their biggest challenge is just keeping up with everything that's changing in the world of digital marketing, staying on top of, you know, the new regulations, the new algorithms, the new tools, the new strategies. How do you personally keep up to date and keep yourself educated? Shash (34:19): So, I mean, the number one thing is you just gotta be inside the ad concept because that's where you're gonna see stuff first. Number two is obviously I, I would say just having the network of people who do the same thing. So for me I talked to a lot of YouTube marketers. So on top of our own media buyers, the also I talked to guys like Tom breeze and like, they're basically other experts Brian Moncada, for example. And these are guys that I often communicate the then, you know, basically being in that circle, you kind of get that information first because sometimes you might dig into an issue and bring it to attention, or sometimes they'll do it. But typically if you surround yourself with marketers who are doing the same thing, you'll get it a lot faster. Kathleen (35:13): Great. All right. Well, if somebody is listening and they have a question for you or they want to learn more, what is the best way for them to connect with you online? Shash (35:26): Yes. So the first resource I would check out is our YouTube channel. If you look up Shash Singh, so S H A S H and S I N G H. So we got a lot of videos there. That's probably the spot to kind of just learn stuff and that other resource I would, if you need to get in contact with me, I will check out our website, which is Linxdigitalagency.com. And I can throw links to that as well. Kathleen (35:54): Awesome. And I'll put those links in the show notes for anybody who's listening. So had there to get more information. And in the meantime, if you are listening to this episode and you liked what you heard, or you learned something new, I would love it. If you would head to Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice to leave a review, that's how other listeners find us. And if you know somebody else who's doing amazing inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next guest. That is it for this week. Thank you so much for joining me Shash, this was really fun. Shash (36:25): Thank you for having me.  

Hey, do you trust that all of the information you share with the IRS is being kept safe? As a general rule, it probably has been, but what we're finding right now is maybe it hasn't, maybe there's been a leak.  There is a lot to talk about when we're talking about the IRS. [00:00:19] They of course have all of the information that they can get their hands on. They're already overloaded and we've got the Biden administration now looking for even more data to go to the IRS. You probably already know that if you do a transaction at a bank above $10,000, that it gets reported to the IRS and probably the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and any other three-letter agency that you can think of course, that doesn't include the BATF. [00:00:52] Because they're not a three-letter agency as much as they want to meet, but the IRS has records on everything, already that they know what your social security number is, what your name is, what your address is. They also have information about. The business you work for or businesses you work for, they know what you do for a living. [00:01:13] They know that you have debt and what that debt is. They know your business relationships, your family status, who you're married to, who your children are, if you have disabilities, because of course you put that on your tax forms and. Bunch of other personal data. Why do the bad guys, Rob banks, or at least they used to because that's where the money is. [00:01:38]So where are the bad guys going right now? We're going to talk more about that a little bit later on today. And if you miss it, you can catch my podcast as well at Craig peterson.com/podcast. But they're going after businesses that take care of cybersecurity. Businesses. So this is a very big deal, but nearly every American has complied voluntarily with paying our taxes, that there's a whole idea behind this system and with the Biden administration now looking at all of this and saying what we want to do now is not the $10,000 limit. That's for wimps. We want to know. Any money that goes into, or out of all taxpayers savings checking or any other accounts or the value of more than just $500. [00:02:31] So what the Biden administration is looking to do is turn every financial institution into a full-time IRS agent, basically providing them with all of this additional data. And then there's also plans that have been drawn up in Washington, DC. To move us away from the dollar and move us to a virtual dollar. [00:02:55] And there's even planned. This is just unbelievable. If I had said this stuff a few years back, no one would have believed me. There's also plans to say if you have more than a certain amount of money in your bank, we're only going to give you like a 0.6 equivalent. So they're going to take away 40% of the value of your. [00:03:13] And if you don't have much money heck we'll just go ahead and give you one and a half to two times as much money as you have in your account. It is incredible here. And with the privacy breaches we have seen in the federal government announced. This really isn't something we can put up with. We can't have them going after everything all of the time, because it just becomes too big, a target. [00:03:40] And I'm not just talking about a target for the typical bad guys. I'm talking about a target as well for. Bureaucrats that have gone out of control. That used to be that if you were going to be prosecuted, they would have heard a story from someone. So it's yeah. Janie just cared. Jenny just killed her husband. [00:04:03] So the police hear about it because there's a rumor floating around town. They go to talk to Janie, trying to look for her husband and they don't find her. Huh? And so now suspicion rises and they start investigating, they'll pull Jamie's credit card records. Look at what told booze she drove through. [00:04:23] They'll look at anything that they can to try and put it together. Who did Jamie call her phone records and talk to those people, try and put together a picture of what happened. But if we devolve into one of these just terrible socialist state that have popped up and failed every time around the world, then what can happen. [00:04:46] And what always happens is yeah. Yeah. The laws are there, but they're only enforced against people that they don't like. And that's a bad thing. So people that they don't like, I don't know, political people is usually what happened. Here in this country, think of what happened with Al Capone. They went after him under tax laws. [00:05:08]And in both cases, they're trying to go after a person or people, not crime. So Al Capone. Okay. You could argue, he was doing all of these crimes, getting money through extortion and murder and everything else. So they're investigating that and they found out, oh, he didn't pay his taxes. [00:05:27] Let's go after him for that. Okay. You could argue that. But what we can see with the government, having all of this information, think about all of our smartphones and our Alexa's and our Google homes and our cars. They all. Everything all of the time. And if the government wants to come after you, they can. [00:05:48] I remember 30 years ago reading an article saying before he get out of bed in the morning, you've probably broken about 20 law. It nowadays, it's probably more like 50 laws. There's so many of them. There's 20,000 laws. At least there was back then 30 years ago, there were 20,000 laws just on gun control. [00:06:09] Okay. It's insane. You cannot live your day without breaking a law. So what did they do while they selectively enforce? They selectively prosecute. So what happens here while the IRS. Perhaps selectively leaked information. Yeah. This is a story I'm looking at right now that came from Fox news. [00:06:30] And they're saying that ProPublica published a story that this is just incredible. Okay. That had information in it. That was apparently from the IRS. Now, this is bad because this is information that wasn't available anywhere else than the IRS. This is information that was private. The IRS, none of this information is supposed to get out, they, you can go after president Donald Trump for tax evasion. Come on guys. First of all, that you can't Sue the president. It's crazy. Everybody would be suing the president that they didn't like a president Biden would have thousands of lawsuits against him right now. And he'd never be able to get a thing done that he was elected to do because he'd have to constantly be responding to lawsuits. [00:07:21] That's how things were established initially here in this country. And I made a lot of. Pretty close to initially in this country, it made a whole lot of sense. If the IRS has given all this information, that's a real big problem. So the IRS security systems or procedures might've been severely compromised and all those data stolen, right? [00:07:41] You might've had one or more IRS employees committing felonies by providing what is legally protected, private, taxpayer information to outside. Or a ProPublica could have just made it up entirely. Who knows this story and ProPublica, I don't really want you guys to go there. You can, if you want to do a little research, obviously, but I don't want them to get the hits and clicks and everything else, but these apparently are trolls. [00:08:11] I've never before seen taxpayer information. June 8th that published this protected taxpayer data in a highly partisan yeah. Surprises, ProPublica, centralized, and misleading. Our article targeting people by name. This is all from this Fox news story. We don't know the scale of this was obviously a breach of some sort. [00:08:36] Was it a cybersecurity breach or not? I don't like any government agency having any information that absolutely doesn't have to have. And on the case of the IRS, they are, it's easy to argue. They need access to. Records, at least the ones we send them. If they think there's a discrepancy, we'll then have a look at the discrepancy, figure out what went wrong, but they don't need to have everything. [00:09:06] This reminds me of what happened with the national security agency. Just sucking in all of the data. It could possibly find it. Denying it and then ultimately saying we're just collecting general information. No one's identified in any of this and think of what happened, Mike Flynn, think of what happened with some of these other people in government, where they were identified and there's games that they're playing. [00:09:34] No, we just don't have time to talk about this today but basically what happens is they can monitor communications that go outside of the country. So apparently they are purposely routing, targeted it data out of the United States. And then back in, so you could sending an email to someone in Washington, DC, or making a phone call and you. [00:10:00] Phone call your email is purposely being routed by government out of the country. And there's some evidence that this is happening. There's certainly a lot of accusations. I get it. Okay. We need to crack down on people who are evading paying taxes that are owed under the law, but forcing these financial institutions to provide the IRS even more private financial information is going to embolden IRS P. [00:10:28] To do what just happened with ProPublica. It's going to also in Bolden the hackers, and we've got a story coming up too, about the value of Bitcoin going up and the hacks, ransomware hacks going up along with it because of the value. So we'll be talking about all of this stuff today. There's a whole lot to talk about, I want to make sure you are on my email list. [00:10:51] CraigPeterson.com.  You can subscribe right there and you can get all of these articles I had talked about and more every week. Stick around. I'll be right back.

In this weeks episode I talk about how annoying people who say "HUH?!" even when they heard you the first time are, Donald Trump's big "comeback", how much of a scammer Austin McBroom is, and to top it all off I give my UFC predictions. Enjoy the episode and i will see you next week!

California: Big state, Big consumer. Big reserves. Big importer of Oil. Huh? Mike Umbro, investor, entrepreneur, and now aspiring energy producer joins TOTB to talk all things California, Oil & Gas, virtue-signaling vs greenwashing and his Big opinions. A San Diego native who went to Pepperdine, Mike enjoys ocean views, palm trees, "Anchorman", and his oil locally produced. Super lively episode. The post Um, Bro? California Screamin' With Mike Umbro on Tripping Over the Barrel appeared first on Digital Wildcatters.

California: Big state, Big consumer. Big reserves. Big importer of Oil. Huh? Mike Umbro, investor, entrepreneur, and now aspiring energy producer joins TOTB to talk all things California, Oil & Gas, virtue-signaling vs greenwashing and his Big opinions. A San Diego native who went to Pepperdine, Mike enjoys ocean views, palm trees, "Anchorman", and his oil locally produced. Super lively episode. The post Um, Bro? California Screamin' With Mike Umbro on Tripping Over the Barrel appeared first on Digital Wildcatters.

Shout Out to the Little Bros and Big Bros! This is another ☝

Today on the podcast Mason chats with naturopath, nutritionist, medical herbalist, and best-selling author Helen Padarin about kid's immunity, nutrition, Liver and Gallbladder flushing, and the seriously empowering works she does with kids, families, and remote indigenous communities. A big running theme in all of Helen's work as a practitioner is empowerment. Whether it be through supporting indigenous communities to continue their traditional ways of eating or her courses that focus on remedies, and hands-on tools to keep parents and children healthy; Helen is giving people the right building blocks and bridging the gap between disempowered and empowered health. Her passion is teaching people to come back to themselves, trust their intuition, and get back to centre so they can thrive in health. With 20 years' experience as a practitioner, Helen brings so much wisdom and experience to this conversation. Helen and Mason hone in on kid's immunity, nutrition, gut health, and why not suppressing fever in children is an empowering act that builds resilience and teaches us to trust our immune system. Helen takes us through the courses she runs and the full function/protocol of Liver and Gallbladder flushing; Why we do it, the basic preparation, and how it improves thyroid function. Tune in for health sovereignty and empowerment. . "I'm passionate about getting kids thriving, and through tools and inspiration, I take the weight out of health and healing and replace it with joy. My work is always in a way that is going to elicit an experience that's felt, that will then provide inspiration and curiosity to continue".      Mason and Helen discuss: Seasonal eating. Vitamin D and Zinc deficiency. Liver and Gallbladder Flushing. The Thyroid Gallbladder connection. Kid's immunity and nutrition. Fever and neural development. Looking at fever as a valuable process. Fevers in children; How to handle them. Carnivore and Paleo eating; How they can support the body. How current reference ranges of blood test results are limited. Foraging, hunting and gathering in indigenous communities. Supporting indigenous communities and their traditional ways of eating.  How non-indigenous Australian's can learn so much about connection and belonging from the ancient wisdom of indigenous people.   Who is Helen Padarin? Naturopath, nutritionist, medical herbalist, and author Helen Padarin has been in clinical practice since 2001. She works from one of Sydney's most highly regarded integrated medical centres alongside GP's, a pediatrician, and other practitioners. Helen is passionate about conscious living, real food, vital health, and empowering individuals, families, and organisations to find the joy in being well. Helen gains constant inspiration from seeing clients make conscious changes to their physical health and finding that it benefits their emotional, mental, and spiritual wellbeing as well. She loves working with other health professionals, community groups, thought leaders, and game-changers to provide truly holistic approaches to health, and creating supportive communities. Through her work Helen aims to promote awareness, and provide education about the treatment options available for immune disorders, digestive disorders, and neurological disorders. Her mission is to educate and promote awareness about a truly nourishing diet and lifestyle for everyone.  Helen was called on to write a chapter on pediatrics and ASD for a peer-reviewed clinical textbook published by Elsevier in 2011, has co-authored the book 'BubbaYumYum' with Charlotte Carr and Pete Evans, co-authored the 'The Complete Gut Health Cookbook' with Chef Pete Evans and has written several articles for health magazines. Since 2011 Helen has been a regular presenter and ambassador for the Mindd Foundation and has presented for Health Masters Live and ACNEM, providing post-graduate education for GP's, naturopaths, nutritionists, and other health care professionals. While living in NZ for over 4 years, Helen also lectured anatomy and physiology for the NZ College of Massage at the NZ Institute of Sport. Helen holds a bachelor's degree in Health Sciences (Naturopathy), advanced diplomas in nutrition, herbal medicine, massage, and has completed extensive post-graduate training in treatment for metabolic, neurologic, digestive, and immune disorders.   CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources: Poop chart  Together Retreat Helen's Facebook Helenpadarin.com Bubba Yum Yum book The Complete Gut Health Cook Book     Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:01) Hey, Helen. Thanks for joining me.   Helen Padarin: (00:03) Hey Mason. Great to be here at long last. Hey, we've made it.   Mason: (00:06) Well, I'm glad you made it. I don't know how many years of hearing your name around the traps, the health community from grassroots days to just around Instagram and seeing your trips that you... I don't know if you are still running the trips out to, was it Arnhem Land?   Helen Padarin: (00:24) In Arnhem Land. Not since COVID that's for sure. So I'm hoping to get up there in July, just personally, but not work-related at this point, but that's been a very rich experience.   Mason: (00:39) What were you doing up there exactly?   Helen Padarin: (00:42) So I was partnering up with an organisation up in Elcho Island, started by Kama Mico, was Kama Trudgen, now Kama Mico. And she started this organisation with a Yolngu woman. So Yolngu are the indigenous people of that part of Northeast Arnhem Land, Elcho Island. And basically looking at supporting them to bring in more of their traditional ways of eating again, which essentially in that part of the world is very much what we would call paleo. And because they've got a really low lifespan there. Forties is generally where a lot of them are passing away, unfortunately, and it's just really due to a lack of education and resources and understanding. And likewise, us [inaudible 00:01:40], us non-indigenous have a hell of a lot to learn from them as well. So it was about learning from each other in this world where we're so disconnected from each other and ourselves and nature and ancient wisdoms and things like that, that really give us a sense of belonging and anchoring and place in the world and actually really simplify a lot of things as well.   Helen Padarin: (02:02) And so, as a result, a lot of us in this Western culture are feeling separated and isolated and stressed and alone, and the sense of not belonging and it's creating all sorts of depression, anxiety, and chronic illness. So we have a lot to learn from each other. So we had set up a world first really bringing indigenous and non-indigenous together for a two week retreat to learn from each other. And it was amazing.   Mason: (02:36) Far out.   Helen Padarin: (02:36) So I would love to do more of that work when the time and space and opportunity allows, but really beautiful work   Mason: (02:47) I love talking about diet and lifestyle. I really love watching, I'm always tuning into your stories, especially because I'm fascinated by practitioners who know how to hold that space really tightly, but there's an invisible bridging from the clinic over into the culture that we've got within our families and within our lifestyle. And you really, you've got a strong flame in your own personal culture. You're cooking out, you're talking a lot about your sourcing and I really like it because it's like it's a real authentic path that you have. And I don't see that a lot in practitioners. I see a lot of practitioners are in a colonised clinical mindset, which is awesome. And we need that. Just not that bridging.   Mason: (03:40) So since you're in that space, creating a diet no longer is about rules and following any crap like one thing. So you, I'm interested. So the way I see diets forming is you hold we're pillars of what we value. And for you, there's this again, for lack of a better word, there's a paleo esque energy around the way that you go and that you're getting a lot of the macro nutrients so on and so forth taking advantage of these whether it's like, I think your pork ribs yesterday?   Helen Padarin: (04:12) Pork belly.   Mason: (04:14) Pork belly. What's that farm again, that you-   Helen Padarin: (04:17) Gregory Downs Organics. So they're a regenerative farm in Young, which is about four and a half hours south west of Sydney. Amazing meat.   Mason: (04:26) I'm going to have to get onto that. I think that deliver. I think they send it-   Helen Padarin: (04:29) They're trying to get further afield. They do make drops in Sydney and Wollongong, and I think as far north as Newcastle, but they're yet to get up to Northern-   Mason: (04:40) [crosstalk 00:04:40] I can't complain, but so it's like there's that element of sourcing local, emulating the basic philosophy of based on the evidence of how we've eaten for thousands of thousands of years, but it's very much as you can as you know it's like okay, cool. We've got animals and a lot of vegetables that aren't endemic. Is that the right word? Anyway, that aren't native to where we are, but it's necessary. We do the best we can. Not many people go and then hold like, all right, now what about all the... I'm just curious what wisdom about, what pearls of wisdom when you go on that retreat, whether it be the food, the foraging, the insights around how you do have a family culture, what is there in that pillar that's marrying up with all these other pillars and values that you have?   Helen Padarin: (05:36) Well, everything in that culture is about relationships first and foremost. And the perspective and vision and way of seeing the world is utterly different. It's like being in another world literally then what we see it. So it can take quite a bit of adjustment to get your head around and how you relate to other people is based on your relationship with them or the relationship with animals or plants or a location or an element. It is literally all about relationships. So there's so much richness and beauty in that. And I see it taking life from being relatively 2D and black and white to being this Technicolour bazaar of richness. There's just so much more nuance in there and detail in there, which is really beautiful. And then it was really interesting from a food front because yes, I use paleo. I don't even really like labelling anything because I certainly don't agree with saying I am paleo because I am not paleo. I am a human. I'm Helen. And there are ways in which I eat that support my physiology best from my own experience. And so when I came across paleo, I was essentially already eating that way by way of experimentation since my teens of what works for me. Because I grew up feeling crap basically. Lots of immune stuff going on, depression, polycystic ovaries, just recurrent infections, pneumonia, shingles, you name it, asthma, eczema been there.   Mason: (07:24) The whole shebang.   Helen Padarin: (07:30) Yes. So I don't know what it was that drew me on this journey really. I know there were a few turning points, but for whatever reason, there was something innate in me that made me look for things that made me feel less crap. I wasn't even really looking to feel well because I didn't actually know that I didn't feel well because that was my normal. So I was just trying to avoid the things that obviously made me feel worse. And as years went on and that was refined. And then I started studying nutrition and naturopathy and it kept further being refined. And then I started seeing patients. And then for a lot of the first decade of my practise, I was really focusing a lot on working with children on the autism spectrum. And they like me, typically have a lot of digestive issues.   Helen Padarin: (08:23) And so going on this journey to heal my own digestion and working towards healing theirs, and it was like this amalgamation of nourishing traditions and gut and psychology syndrome and the body ecology diet and bringing all these things together. And when you overlay those elements, a lot of essentially what it came down to was paleo without knowing it. And then when I found out about paleo, I was like, "Huh, that's like what I'm doing." So it wasn't like a thing to latch on. And I encourage this for everybody is working towards what works best for you. And we go through different seasons in our life. And at different times we might need to eat in different ways to support ourselves through that phase as well.   Helen Padarin: (09:10) But what I found really interesting. So even when I'm eating paleo, my perception or my approach was always really highly plant-based. So it was still like 80% of my plate was veggies. And then there hasn't been meat and plenty of good fats, love fats. And then I started hearing about carnivore diet and [crosstalk 00:09:38] this ties into what I'm about to talk about up north. So I am getting somewhere with this.   Mason: (09:43) I completely trust you. I sometimes don't. I try, I'll admit, trust my guests and I'm like, "I'm going to remember that we've got a stake in the ground over there," but for you, I'm like, "I know you know what you're doing."   Helen Padarin: (09:56) Awesome. So when I first heard about carnivore, gosh, it must've been, I don't know, five, six years ago, something like that. And I was like, "You've got to be kidding me, right? That's a bit of a stretch." It was so far from my perception and my understanding at that point in time that I really couldn't reconcile with it at first. But then the more I started reading about it and the more I started researching and the more I was looking at a bit of the anthropological side of things and our history with hunting and gathering and the more I was looking at research and the more I'm working with restoring gut microbiomes and all this stuff. And I started meeting some people who were on that path and it was a massive turning point in them really upleveling or really nurturing and nourishing their health to a point that they hadn't yet been able to achieve prior.   Helen Padarin: (10:58) So I was starting to think, "Okay there's something in this." And then I started working with a few patients myself and experimenting just myself, but only in short little stints that actually felt really good on it. And patients who were bringing it in as well were typically really benefiting from it as well. And I typically maybe there might be rare cases, but I don't necessarily think it's a forever thing, but it's certainly a very helpful tool at times. But then what I learned when I was going up north was going hunting and gathering. It's really bloody hard to find plant foods, really hard. It takes out a lot of energy and a lot of effort for very small yield and that yield doesn't cover the expenditure of energy that it took to get it either.   Helen Padarin: (11:57) There's some amazing phytonutrients in there that have other really valuable physiological effects. But in terms of energy balance, it didn't add up at all. And yet to go and get a turtle or a goanna or whatever was actually relatively easy. And then you had something really filling and nourishing to share with the community. So that really started to shift as well my understanding. Because I've known over the years it's really important to prepare plants properly because they don't have teeth or claws. So their defence mechanisms are compounds within them that put animals off eating them because it might make them sick or die. And so we need to prepare those foods properly.   Mason: (12:47) Can I just say, just watch your hand. I think it just hits every now and then that mic.   Helen Padarin: (12:51) The microphone.   Mason: (12:52) I think it was just your hand brushing over it, but yeah. Sorry, go for it.   Helen Padarin: (12:58) No worries. So where was I? We really need to be able to prepare those plant foods properly so that we can digest them and utilise the nutrients in them adequately, which in our society of busy-ness, convenience, get things done quickly, that just doesn't tend to happen. So to have a healthy plant-based diet really takes a lot of conscientious effort. So time up there really helped me to consolidate that and really helped with my broadening my perspective. And again, it depends on what climate you're in, what season of life you're in, what your demands are at the time. All of those things come into play as well, but there really is time and place for all sorts of different ways of eating, including being vegan.   Mason: (13:54) I love this conversation so much. And I feel, if you're happy because I like what you're talking about there, it's just, it's bursted a bubble of perception that you had. And then from the way that you're talking about it, I'm going to keep to myself really questioned based I'm really just curious. And I'm in a real gooey thinking about this. You talked about seasonality being a factor. And for me more and more, as soon as you brought that up, it took me straight out of the black and white way of things. I still, if people say carnivore and straightaway in my mind, I'm like, "If you start it, there's going to be an intention to do that as long as possible, see how long that's going to be beneficial for you." And it's a real 2D way of approaching diet, which is fine, especially if you're in a clinic and especially if you're using veganism or carnivore as a healing tool. And you're very aware of other variables that may be doing gut microbiome testing, whatever it is.   Mason: (14:59) As soon as you mentioned seasonality, you've put colour and more of a 5D 6D way of thinking about how diets are going to slot in. And I started just thinking of gorging. It's of course like the same three square, although there's say and sorry for rambling here and sorry for rambling everybody because you tuned in for Helen, everyone. [crosstalk 00:15:25] I'm going to ramble a little bit, but we'll make sure we go long so we get all the wisdom out of Helen as well, but I'm going to indulge and process. I love contradictions. And again, I keep on thinking about this Scott Fitzgerald quote of the sign of true intelligence is your capacity to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and still function and hold them and watch them play pong back and forth.   Mason: (15:52) And so the three square meals. I'm like if you look at Chinese culture and the longevity factor of having consistency, same food, same nice warming food prepared in very similar ways, changing slightly during the seasons in cooking method. But having that real consistency for the body, I'm like, "That makes sense." And then you look at the ancestral element and it's like, well, for an Eskimo, you're going to, at some point in winter, you're going to be gorging on meat. And then I got brought to my attention. I'm like, yeah, but in the springtime, they actually have access to a shitload of berries and plant matter and they're going to be going hard over in that way. And they needed to because that's the way the world presented itself. And so there was this fluidity and this dance, which we need to learn how to integrate that.   Mason: (16:43) Even though we do have the convenience of civilization that could give us say the people who are best at taking advantage of civilization from a health and in other ways perspective is say the Chinese. And so they do that really well. So I'm like, cool, take that, but then don't forget your roots. So on and so forth that creates this gooey potential. If you can, for me, you say burst that bubble of like, "I know what it is. I know where I attribute my health to." It's this diet, because you've got to discover, I guess at the moment it must be trippy for you having a clinic and taking people through healing diets and then attempting to convey the ongoing, never-ending nature of finding an optimal diet in this crazy privilege that we have in this world.   Helen Padarin: (17:31) We definitely are in an incredible place of privilege that we do have so much choice and I think it's because we do have so much convenience and comfort. And convenience and comfort can really be thorns in the side of progress as well. So we really need to, I mean, I personally get really sick of going to, even if it's the organic supermarket and it's the same vegetables all year round. There's five things you can choose from like, "Oh my God, give me something else." I need to go foraging to have some variety or something. So we would be... Simple I think is good because we can very much over-complicate things. And the seasonality thing is an environmental thing and also an internal thing because internally we've got seasons too. So we are going through our lives, different stages of growth, different hormonal stages, stages of disease, stages of recovery and recuperation.   Helen Padarin: (18:38) We've got the four seasons of the year that we are... You know a lot about this. You can speak more on that, but throughout both our lives and our environments, there's always these shifts. And I think that's where we run into trouble when we attach ourselves to any ideology, because then there's that risk of sticking to it, no matter what, even if it isn't actually serving you anymore. So I think always having some flexibility and yet being able to dance with the seasons and know that things aren't stagnant. It's like when things get stagnant, that's when we get ill. So we need that flow happening throughout all elements of our life and food is one of them.   Mason: (19:27) And you brought up the different seasons of your life and that really strikes me. I haven't heard it come up in a while, just in a distinction around this, but brings the... And I can feel in that it's like you're going to evolve and have different seasons and you've only got the... That maybe doesn't necessarily loop around like the seasons of the earth, perhaps [crosstalk 00:19:56] and that's the only time you're going to have that hormone ratio or deployment, or that con symphony of those secretions. I'm just interested, have you got any in your own life? On that, just how that helps you like...   Helen Padarin: (20:14) Affected me the most is always staying curious. It's also affected me in that I'm a terrible meal planner. I won't plan a meal because I don't know how I'm going to feel on any given day. So on the day I want to go, "What do I need today? Okay. I'm going to have..." And I'm very fortunate that I've got that choice. There's a lot of people around the world who wouldn't. So that is definitely coming from a place of privilege, but I guess in different seasons for me, let me have a little think and feel. Well, I've actually just got some adrenal results back and I know I really need to go into some adrenal restoration for myself at the moment because there's been quite a few years of really depleting them basically.   Helen Padarin: (21:03) And I guess because I have all the pieces in place in my diet and lifestyle otherwise, I'm able to carry on pretty well. So I was quite surprised when I saw those are low. So I was like, "Okay, that's a little bit of a reality check for me as well." Stress is a big one for me. And I know that I've got this global high activation of my nervous system running in the background. So there can be, particularly during times of overwhelm for me, then I really need to make sure that I am, I don't know. There are times where I might have a bit more carbohydrate than normal and other times, for example, carbs just really don't suit me and make me feel tired. But other times it's something that's actually going to nourish me and nurture me and give me more energy and make me sleep better. And all of those kinds of things. So there's little tweaks like that in my diets.   Helen Padarin: (22:05) And then lifestyle wise, I'll be making sure that there's time to actually switch off and have quiet time. And over the years I've said one of my biggest goals in life is to get bored because I think there's not enough opportunity for that these days. And that's the place where creativity and imagination really comes to play. So that for me has been one of my big life lessons, because it's a little trap when you love what you do as well, because it doesn't necessarily feel like work, but you still got to really have that quiet time and rest, or I should say, I really still need to have that quiet time and rest. So they're the seasonal things for me that I'm feeling most at the moment anyway.   Mason: (22:57) Boredom. I really, I use that word in a very... I have used it. That's when I was like, when I was-   Mason: (23:02) I use that word in a very.... I have used it, like... I was like, when I stopped being vegan, it was because I got bored shitless with myself. And it's a very different kind of way of approaching that, like slipping into those states of boredom. I feel it's like an almost kind of, I can feel when you're saying that the context, there's a harmony and a sereneness in the cruising, which I think is yeah, definitely... If you look at the way, old Taoists, look at the heart, and being like, you know, full yang's all active, yang, celebration, love, but the yin is serene. And so you look at... This is someone, we just don't associate with that in the west, like that person's full power, fire, heart element, and they're just cruising.   Helen Padarin: (23:44) Yeah. And we definitely... Yeah. We really celebrate that yang in this culture. Right? And yeah, there's, I don't know who first said it, but you know, he who fails to go within goes without. We really need that time to nourish. And for me, boredom is just like an open space of nothingness, which is really, really beautiful. And more, I find, more and more challenging. Or not more and more challenging, I have just found it challenging, to spend time in that space. And I think I really feel that for kids these days as well, especially because they're growing up with so much stimulation and, you know, even we had as kids growing up. And I think that's a whole nother challenge that they're going to have to work their way through throughout life. Yeah.   Mason: (24:42) Mm-hmm (affirmative). I'd love to talk about kids a little bit. I'm like, I was so stoked when I saw you were doing a kid's immunity course. I feel because there's a lot with... There's obviously so much on adults' immunity because adults are so screwed. And kids have got...   Helen Padarin: (25:05) And that's the point, you know? Like often adults are so screwed because of what happened when we were kids. And so it's like, let's just stop that train now. Yeah? And turn it around so that when they're adults, I don't have to deal with all this hardship that we're dealing with because we didn't have that information or those tools or those resources when we were young. So yeah, it really breaks my heart to see kids in the clinic. And I know, because as I said before, I can relate to it, when I was young I didn't know that I didn't feel well until I felt better. And then it was like, holy shit, I can't believe I felt that bad for so long. You know? And so when I see kids now who are, you know, maybe not even five years old and already chronically ill, or even teenagers who have just had chronic ill health throughout their life.   Helen Padarin: (25:55) And a lot of it is gut and immune mediated. And they don't even know that they don't feel well. And I can see that, but they don't know that. And someone telling them isn't going to change that for them. Really, it's one of those things, I think most of the time, you don't really know until you experience it. And when you're feeling like that, gosh, it really... You know? It can tend to put a lens over how you see life and what your prospects are in the world and your hopefulness or hopelessness and all of this kind of thing. And so one of the things that I really wanted to be able to do with the kids immunity course is like, get kids thriving, you know? And it empowers whole families because when kids are ill, it puts stress on everybody as well. It puts a stress on other siblings who might not be getting the same amount of attention, it puts stress on parents.   Helen Padarin: (26:58) You know, if you look at, in the ASD community, for example, around, you know, there's about a 80% divorce rate because it's just so stressful when you're with kids with high needs all the time. But there's also, on the lesser end of the spectrum, asthma, allergies, eczema, but it disrupts sleep. And there's all these doctor's visits and there's this constant application of creams and antibiotics and steroids and all these kinds of stuff that, you know, you don't realise how much of an impact it's having on you sometimes until you're not having to do that anymore. And sometimes the idea of changing, like humans in general aren't great at change. And we'll tend to see it like Mount Everest and then we'll do it. And we're like, oh, that was actually an anthill, that wasn't so bad.   Helen Padarin: (27:51) So it's just a matter, I don't know. It's a matter of providing inspiration. Tools and inspiration. I'm really not a fan of motivation. Motivation takes a lot of energy. It takes discipline, but it takes a lot of energy. And sometimes you need that to make a first step. To go, okay, I'm going to do this. However, the way that I like to go on that adventure, to see what else there is. Yeah. So, and to bring some joy to it because of health and healing as well, it can get really weighted too. And you're always focusing on, you know, what's wrong or what else you've got to fix, or, you know, how can you do it better or how can you be better and all that kind of stuff. It's like, actually, let's just get curious and go on a bit of an adventure here and then feel bloody great as a result.   Mason: (28:53) I mean, I'm really excited about it for, you know, myself. Because I, you know, although I feel like we've got kind of like a real good foundation for understanding, you know, what the little ones need, obviously, you know, I've been in the industry and use your eyes like really, really healthy, but I feel like there's a lot of nuance perhaps that I have... Like I could probably upgrade with. So I'm really, I'm looking forward to it for myself for that reason.   Mason: (29:17) I'm pretty excited for the community based on what you just, like, everything you were just alluding to. That it's not just going to be like, stop doing this, you know, it's really harmful to do that and you should feel bad about that. You know, like I just remember the last time I heard someone really tuning into kids health and immunity, years ago, and they were like, basically, you know, giving gluten to a child is essentially, I'm sorry to say it and I'm trying to be gentle, but it's basically child abuse. And I was like, that's such a... You may think that, but that's such a... Like, you're perfectly within your rights, so hardcore to say that to someone, and you've alluded to all the realities of having a family and the fact making it, you know, for me, it's like, creating inspiration, a kinetic connection, an emotional connection to why we're going to do this. If the dad or the mom isn't onboard, you know, perhaps some space to allow everyone to find their own way to engage with this.   Mason: (30:12) So it's not them, and your awareness of the stress that this process can put through. I like, I can feel you really being like a... I mean, a shepherd implies that you've got sheep, but like, you know, a real custodian of like, that can really walk with people along that path and, you know, knowing that it's going to be really unique. I'm really excited for everyone on that. Would you mind jumping into some of the principles, the little tidbits around kids' immunity. Simple, complex that, you know, may be obvious, you know, may be not. And in that, like I was going to bring up maybe like fever as well, because I saw you doing a live on fever the other day. So maybe, I wouldn't mind just like a tiny little download on how you relate to fevers in childhood.   Helen Padarin: (31:07) Yeah. Well maybe we can start there. Yeah. Fever's really important, first of all. Right? So it is an essential part of an immune response. And if we are experiencing a fever, it's showing that our immune system is acting appropriately in the face of an infection or in the face of having to get rid of something in the body from an immune perspective. Okay? And so these days, one of the problems that I find we run into most frequently is where in a culture that is really adverse to discomfort, and fever's not comfortable. Yeah? And so whether it is a headache or whether it is a fever, we're very quick to pop a pill for that and to suppress that. But what we're then doing, if we're suppressing fever, is not actually allowing the immune system to carry out the functions that it needs to.   Helen Padarin: (32:04) And so then as a result, often the illness is either prolonged or it can even be more severe or recurrent. Yeah? Because the infection was never really properly addressed. And a lot of this just comes down to, you know, poor availability of information as well. We all are doing the best that we know what to do with the information that we have at the time. And generally speaking, the advice from most doctors and paediatricians is, if you've got a fever, have some paracetamol or something like that. Yeah? [inaudible 00:32:39] So it's not a... Yeah, it isn't about pointing fingers, going, you know, that's a bad thing to do, don't do it. And there are times and places for those things as well. But to be used really judiciously.   Helen Padarin: (32:54) And so there's a few fascinating things about fever too. And one of the ones that I find really interesting, and Rudolph Steiner talks about this quite a bit too, is how fever is actually really an important part of child development as well, neural development. And you will often notice that if a child has a fever and they're allowed to go through it, they're supported through it, then when they come out of it, it's like, whoa, when did you suddenly grow up? You know, have you noticed that yourself at all? Yeah.   Mason: (33:28) Hundred percent.   Helen Padarin: (33:29) Yeah, yeah. There's this big shift, but that doesn't tend to happen if we suppress the fever. Yeah? Why exactly that happens, I don't know the mechanism. But it is just something that you see happen all the time. Time after time. So that's really important. And there's also a resilience piece in there as well because when a child is supported to go through a fever, they know that they're capable of doing so. And they're also learning that it's okay to be uncomfortable, and discomfort passes too. So that's going to help them as they age because there's always going to be things in life that are painful and uncomfortable. We can't avoid it. And unfortunately we try to, but often in doing so create more. So it's that whole thing in a way of what we resist persists.   Helen Padarin: (34:27) And it's really empowering when you know that you can support your child. Because there's a lot of fear around fever too, yeah, it's like there's fear of febrile convulsions, for example. But the research shows, and clinical practise shows, that generally speaking, febrile convulsions aren't dangerous. There's a point to which, you know, fevers might need to be treated. And it's generally around the 40, 41 degree mark. Or if the child has symptoms like going really floppy or listless or something like that. But generally speaking, even for quite high fevers, there are a lot of safe practises that you can employ to support your child through it.   Helen Padarin: (35:10) And so in the course, we talk about what they are and we also do demos in the kitchen of home remedies and things that you can make to bring into play as well. And you know, what herbs can be useful for helping to moderate or break a fever and things like that if need be. So, yeah, I think fever is something... You know, it's important to monitor and manage, but I think generally speaking we tend to be way more fearful of it than what we need to be. And it's a really valuable process to go through.   Helen Padarin: (35:47) And we've had families in the course going through it. And since starting their course, their kids had an infection and like just the feedback we get after their child has an infection is so cool because you can hear it in their voice and feel it in their tone. They're just like so stoked and feeling so empowered that they actually knew what to do, and were capable of doing it at home. It wasn't this having to outsource all the time. And that I'm really passionate about as well, because I think we have in this society been kind of conditioned to hand over so much of our own power and responsibility. And if we can learn, actually, we've got this, we can do this. We'd be in a lot better place in so many ways.   Mason: (36:38) I love it so much. I love that, like, you've just articulated in a way that is incredible and perceivable. And I don't think people realise the impact. It's like when people don't know that they're not feeling that great, people don't realise just how disenfranchised they are, how disconnected they are from their own sovereignty and something as simple. And I'm excited because, you know, at times I float off into, you know, my very busy periods in the business and, you know, like... And I just, I kind of forget about just tending to the home fire and upkeeping those skills, and trusting in myself and believing myself. Lucky to have a wife that's like very, very good at that. But it's like preparing your own meals and then just having those remedies and watching... Knowing the protocols, you know, and not going to a clinician, oh my god, that's why you need to be teaching this mindset to practitioners, I think.   Mason: (37:41) It just makes me smile so much. And I just, I love practitioners that have that awareness because I think it takes a lot to embody that world of healing, clinical healing, facilitating people who would be out of their depth, which happens regularly. And thank god, you know, we have clinicians for when we are out of our depth. Entering that world, it's such a shedding of the skin and taking on a whole nother path to then venture out of that safe cocoon of I'm a know-it-all, and I'm the one that delivers the healing. To delivering what you are. I really value it. I don't have a word coined for what that type of practitioner is, but I'm going to say a good one. And so..   Helen Padarin: (38:32) [inaudible 00:38:32].   Mason: (38:33) But I love it, yeah.   Helen Padarin: (38:36) No, I get it. It's a big theme in my practise as well. I guess it is more about, you know, the whole teaching a man to fish thing, rather than giving out the fish. Because there's no point, otherwise we're just building other co-dependent relationships rather than being able to really trust and rely on ourselves. And yeah, again, one of my biggest passions, come back to yourself, free a connection with self, trusting that intuition, trusting your inner voice, knowing how much wisdom you do have, knowing how capable you are, and knowing how much resilience you have. Because so many things throughout our life can just like chip all that stuff away from our belief in ourselves that we have these totally warped views of what we are actually capable of. So yeah. Getting back to centre, getting back to self.   Mason: (39:30) So good. What are some of the other principles that you cover for kids' immunity?   Helen Padarin: (39:36) Yeah. So we start off with nutrition and immune function, which is actually really important when we're dealing with kids, because nutritionally speaking, kids aren't just mini adults, right? They're going through the most rapid rates of growth and development in their lives. So their requirements for nutrients are very different per kilo, for example, than it is for adults. Yeah? So we look at the key nutrients that are required for immune development and for gut function in particular, because as you know, most of the immune system is in the lining of the gut wall. And so while we start off with talking about nutrition, because of course every cell and hormone and neurotransmitter and immune molecule in your body is made up of the nutrients that you eat. So if you don't have those nutrients coming in, you don't have the building blocks to be able to build those things.   Helen Padarin: (40:31) And therefore your function is going to be impaired. So, we start off there with the building blocks. There's also the fact that during times of greater need, we need to make sure we have more of those nutrients. So if there are asthma or chronic allergies, or if there is an acute infection, the requirements for those nutrients also increases from baseline. So in those times, what do we want to focus on? Making sure there's plenty coming into the diet. Yeah? And we focus mostly on foods, but of course at times, you know, supplements can be helpful, but in the big scheme of things, we want foods to be medicine as much as possible. Yeah? You can't supplement away a shitty diet. You can't get all those building blocks because food is so much more than nutrients as well. Yeah. It's information and we can't get that information from supplements. So from there we go on and look at gut health and a little bit of a, not a big, deep dive, but a bit of a dive into the microbiome. Because as I just mentioned before, most of your immune system is in the lining of your gut wall and how your immune system responds to different triggers is very much dependent on what kind of microbes are growing in your gut. So we look at the integrity of the gut wall. We look at microbiome diversity. We look at what the gut needs to actually function well, what nutrients are required for gut health as well. So looking at that side of things. We have a whole module on fever. There's seven modules in the course. So yeah, there's a whole module on fever. And we've got an interview with Dr. Marsha Trait, who's a paediatric neurologist in the States and she's shared some beautiful information on fever and microbial diversity and all of that kind of thing in there. So that's got a lot of gold in it.   Mason: (42:38) Amazing. I think all of our people are going to be really stoked to know that you're, you know... I knew you would be, but just know that you're having like that micro, that diversity conversation. I think it's like everyone's starting to click on to that being such a good way to...   Helen Padarin: (42:54) [inaudible 00:42:54].   Mason: (42:54) Yeah. Awesome.   Helen Padarin: (42:54) For sure. Yeah. Then we have sessions in the kitchen. So each module's got PDFs and videos. And so yeah, you come into the kitchen with us as well and we do recipe demos of some really core foods to include for immune function. We have another module on home remedies as well. So again, come into the kitchen with us so that you know how to make them. They're super simple, but you know, like me, I'm a visual and kinesthetic person. So it's easier to learn that way.   Helen Padarin: (43:29) We do include in there overarching support for the whole family as well. Because just like the gut microbiome, the family unit is a bit of a microbiome itself as well. And so the impact of each member of the family affects the other. So we're looking at that kind of organism as a whole. And what else we've got. I feel like I'm missing one. We've got a whole bunch of additional resources in there too. And we include PDFs to research papers and stuff like that. So if you want to geek out more, you can go down that line. And then if you want to keep it really practical and just go, I need to know what to do now, then you can look at it from that point as well.   Mason: (44:18) Can you give me a sneak peak of some type of like nutrients, whether it be one that we like, you know, if you want to be finding it in food or supplementation, that you see as like a key one that's deficient in most diets, maybe don't, leave the hook thing and in the course we'll show you how to get it into your diets.   Helen Padarin: (44:34) I'm okay to share some. So yeah, I guess two of the big ones in Australia, well, not just Australia actually, Australia, America, Europe, and New Zealand, vitamin D and zinc, for sure. And one thing that's really important, I think, for people to understand as well is how limited reference ranges of blood test results are. Or rather how they are determined. Because a lot of people go, yeah, I had my vitamin D tested or I had my zinc tested or my whatever tested and it's all good. It's all fine, it's all in the normal range. But what's important to understand is that reference ranges through pathology labs are based on 95% of the results that go through that lab.   Helen Padarin: (45:29) So that means that generally speaking, it's sick people who are going to get tested. So it's 95% of the results of sick people, generally, not 95% of the results of healthy people. And so it can vary from lab to lab as well, depending on the demographic of the area that the lab is in. And I, as of this year, have been in practise now for 20 years.   Mason: (45:54) Whoa.   Helen Padarin: (45:54) I know, it doesn't seem possible, but apparently it is. And so I have seen over the years as our populations metabolic health.   Helen Padarin: (46:03) I've seen over the years, as our population's metabolic health has gone downhill, our reference ranges have changed along with that. So now where we're seeing, oh, it's in the normal range, 10 years ago, that would not have been in the normal range. So normal range doesn't actually really mean anything, okay? We want to actually look at the ideal range.   Mason: (46:21) What a way to decimate the genome and take us on a completely different dependent evolutionary path.   Helen Padarin: (46:29) A hundred percent. There's a Krishnamurti quote I love, now I need to remember it.   Mason: (46:38) I love it and that's all.   Helen Padarin: (46:40) And that's it so look him up. Here it is, basically, he's saying there's nothing healthy about being well adapted to a profoundly sick society, which is what we have been really doing quite well.   Mason: (46:59) Very well.   Helen Padarin: (47:00) So if we look at vitamin D, for example, in Australia and New Zealand, to be determined to be vitamin D deficient, you would have a rating of 49 nanomoles per litre or lower. But we know that even at 75 nanomoles per litre, you have a 50% increased risk of viral infections. That's at 75, but most people could have their blood test results come back at 51 and the doctor's like, "You're fine." And they're like, "Oh my God," going through the floor. So typically for vitamin D, we want to see... And it also increases risk of things like autoimmunity and allergies and eczema and gut issues as well because of course our nutrients are used for multiple functions throughout the body. So low or suboptimal levels. So there's deficiency and there's sub-optimal level and the sub-optimal level will have many impacts around the body.   Helen Padarin: (48:06) So really you're looking for levels of more than a hundred at least, but ideally between 130 and 200 nanomoles, the numbers are different in the States because they have different measurements so you have to do the conversion, but yet in Australia and New Zealand, that's what you're aiming for. So that is really not often achieved because while we're in this sunny country, we've also learned over the years to slip, slop, slap a bit too much and be too fearful of the sun. And so it's very rare for me to see good blood test results for vitamin D.   Helen Padarin: (48:42) And if we don't get our blood levels up by the end of summer, it's really hard to maintain them throughout the rest of the year, because particularly the further down the latitude or further up the latitude you go, the less months of the year, you're actually going to get rays from the sun that you get vitamin D from. So then you really need to make sure that you're getting it from your food. So, yes, vitamin D from food is really important.   Helen Padarin: (49:10) And so zinc, our soils in Australia and New Zealand and quite a few other countries are very low in zinc so it comes down to you're not just what you eat, but you're what you are, what you eat. So whether you are eating plants, you need to make sure that they've been in good soil. If you're eating animals, you need to make sure they're in good soil and eating good plants, and that's going to affect the nutrient density of the food, which is why I'm passionate about sourcing food as best as possible as he can, which isn't always possible, you just do the best with what you can and that's it. There's nothing else, no more to it, that's the best you can do. So yeah, there are a couple of the nutrients that are most commonly deficient. Yeah, and has a huge impact.   Mason: (49:59) Huge impact, yeah. Maybe it's good thing that I have a four year old always asked for a chunk of butter for herself to how down on in the morning,   Helen Padarin: (50:10) Yeah, that's it. So pasture-raised animal fats, so really the best source of vitamin D, which is one reason why I love my Gregory Downs Organics pork and their pork belly. So those fatty cuts of pork because pork fat is one of the highest sources of vitamin D. Or you could even get some pasture-raised lard and cook with that, pasteurised egg yolks, liver, cod liver oil, they are all good sources of vitamin D.   Mason: (50:37) Cod liver oil, an easy one to get into the kids.   Helen Padarin: (50:40) Most of the time, it actually is, it's only us adults that have psychological issues with them.   Mason: (50:47) Yeah. I'm damaged, I'm damaged from taking it. But we dosed Aiya up when she was a little one before she was tarnished.   Helen Padarin: (51:03) And that's one thing, if you are introducing foods to kids, it's monkey see monkey do, right? So if you are wanting them to have a particular food and you're giving it to them going, "Ah, that was gross," then they're going to go, "Ah, that's gross," because they're mirroring you because that's how they're learning. So this just goes across the board. Again, embrace that attitude of curiosity and adventure when you're trying new foods, whether it's yourself or your kids, and remember to give your kids the gift of finding out for themselves rather than basing their opinion of yours, yeah. So yeah, give them the opportunity to choose for themselves. And remember that humans are creatures of repetition, especially kids, and usually the magic number for trying new foods is 10 before you make an actual opinion about something. So just having things on offer that you can try a variety of different things.   Mason: (52:12) That's a good one. Yeah. Gosh, I'm looking forward to doing this course and I'm looking forward to everyone... I think we've got a lot of parents listening to this podcast, I think they're going to be stoked as well. Do you have any particular times when you open it up?   Helen Padarin: (52:27) Well, it's open all year, but now that we're going into the Southern hemisphere winter, we're doing more live chats and spending more time. There's a private Facebook group so you get to connect with other like-minded families as well, which is really great. And so yeah, times of year like this, we're spending more time in there to engage and make sure everybody's really resourced up as we go into the cooler months of the year. So yes, now is a good time.   Mason: (52:57) Oh, that's such a huge resource having a practitioner led course that's revolving around remedies and keeping yourself healthy is very different a lot of the time to where I've kind of come from, which is that super counter-culture grassroots health community, which it's like there's an experimental remedy for everything and a lot of the time they were impervious to structure. Some of them nail it and do it really well, most of the time not. So it's nice to know, especially when it comes to kids, they just have such a grounded resource, grounded admins helping.   Helen Padarin: (53:37) Yeah. And with the Q&As as well, the live chats, it's such a good opportunity to engage personally as well and ask specific questions about what's going on for your child or your family or yourself. Yeah, so there's the foundational work with all the course material and a lot of specifics in there for different kinds of conditions or symptoms, but then, yeah, the live chats are a great way to go deeper, basically.   Mason: (54:12) Amazing. I mean, what an investment. I mean, when it all gets a bit hard for me and I'm like, "I'm too busy," I kind of really start re-evaluating, especially... I mean, if I look at I'm investing in a house and working my ass off and I can feel how that kind of setup is going to be so beneficial. It's just as easily I feel the microbiome of my child, I'm like, "No," all of a sudden I'm not too busy. I just feel like getting that world into my world and I go, "Oh my gosh, what an investment," just how much easier life is going to be for that child, for me.   Helen Padarin: (54:50) Yeah, for the rest of their life and your life as well, because we know that the health in our childhood and how many courses of antibiotics we've had and that kind of thing has lifelong impact as well. So again, that's why I'm so passionate about it and why I wanted to focus on kids because it's a real opportunity to change the future. Or rather than change, have it empowered, strong, resilient future generations. And I can't think of a better gift to our kids in that sense than that really, because then they've got more freedom to do and choose what they wish to.   Mason: (55:33) It's huge. You do just see some people are just naturally born with a shitload of Jing, like Keith Richards, but there's other there's kids, there's families and they were just on the broths and organ meats, just real good source veggies. And you just look at that like the good stock, really good stock, strong knees.   Helen Padarin: (55:59) Absolutely. And I see that with my friend's kids. And so often they just get stopped all the time, going, "Wow, your kid's just so alert and so engaged and so vibrant," and yeah, it does make a huge difference how they start out, yeah, on all levels, physically, mentally, and emotionally, spiritually. Yeah.   Mason: (56:22) What an incredible opportunity to learn these things and to share them out as you said going up, getting on country and sharing that with mob. You can see something really amazing getting created here. It's not just run of the mill. All right. Everyone just jump onto that course, by the way, if you're in the Northern hemisphere get on, get onto it.   Helen Padarin: (56:46) Yeah. Even if you get onto it now you're prepared for your winter, but yes, you can sign up any time, but again, we're on there now.   Mason: (56:56) Prepare for flu season, although we don't have the flu anymore, it's gone. It's all gone. There's no flu season this year.   Helen Padarin: (57:03) Prepare for viruses, can't even say it. Actually, if anybody wants to help this cause for stronger future generations, just with all the censorship going on at the moment, anything that even smells of immunity just is really hard to get much reach. So if you do feel that this is important, then yeah, we would be super appreciative of just sharing it with friends and family and anyone you think might be interested out there.   Mason: (57:38) Yeah. So I'm really happy to share this out there. We've had that as well with all the COVID censorship, even just wanting to do an ad, right? You look at the crazy ads that people put out there from the pharmaceutical company and the crazy... We've talked about vaccines once on this podcast, especially the COVID-19 podcasts so it was with a doctor who, she's rad and she's worked on vaccines and she was explaining her process about all of why she wanted to do it. And I was like, "Great," it was a great conversation. And I really am seeing the opportunity to have some real open table chats on this podcast. And it's the same way with diets, start popping the bubble as much as possible and start looking at each other and feeling each other's process to approaching this whole thing and acknowledging our own ignorance at the same time.   Mason: (58:34) So in saying that, maybe we talk about it, maybe we don't, let's see how far we go down, but just talking to the immunity thing, look at how that's been advertised, celebrity endorsements, all that kind of stuff. There's no kind of real accountability there. I've got a product that's now a TGA listed medicine so it's on the same kind of level of scrutiny as a drug basically and we've got clinical-backed data, we're allowed to say, "This is to build your immune system, this is to support your immune system." And if I try and advertise that it gets denied by the big wigs, because I'm not allowed to advertise my thing that I paid a lot of money to have as a listed medicine here in Australia and is clinically-backed and acknowledged it is traditionally backed to support the immune system. So it's a lot of bullshit.   Helen Padarin: (59:32) Yeah. I feel It. Yeah, that's a whole other thing, isn't it? It's crazy, yeah, how much is being censored at the moment. And I kind of wanted to emphasise as well one thing that you said earlier and then kind of it came up then is that ability to hold contradictions. I mean, all of life is a contradiction, right? Contradiction is everywhere, nothing makes sense really, if you want a black and white yes or no kind of thing. And I just think it is really important that we do kind of let down our guards and defences a bit so that we can get curious and have conversations and not need to pretend that we know it all and be open to learning new information and hearing other people's points of views without becoming supercharged about it. I mean, I know it can be challenging at times, but rarely is the truth at either end of the spectrum, it's usually there's somewhere in between I think. But either way being open to more than one point of view I think is important for health as well.   Mason: (01:00:45) That contradiction you just brought up a real nuanced skill that does show intelligence there because I feel like it's a very slippery one and I do see a lot of people who are speaking out about having the vaccine forced on them going, "Hey everyone, please, you need to listen and learn," and I see the distinction and skill there is going, "I've done a lot of research on this. I have a view that is going against the common narrative and I want to share that and I'm going to ask you guys to be open to sharing," that's the skill. To be like that and have real conviction in that what you're talking about and still then holding this opening and this desire to learn and really dead set letting go of your "I'm a know-it-all, I'm right and I've got all my talking points that make it so that even though they're convincing," I've been there and been like, "No one will ever sway me on this. Look at that, I'm too good at gathering..." Whether you're on the pro or anti or whatever you want to call yourself side, having that ability to lay it down as you know it and staying completely open and curious at the same time, huge sign of intelligence.   Helen Padarin: (01:01:59) Imagine if we could all do that, imagine the state of affairs and society and the world if we even just had a little bit more of that going around. I think that's one of the medicines we need, yeah.   Mason: (01:02:15) I'm going to say something very non-woke now, but going through a fever, going through an experience that is not comfortable and being supported, but being allowed the right to be uncomfortable and work your way through that kind of helps you not become such a snowflake is how I'd put it. But I think what you're talking about, having an open affair, having conversation with someone and really trying to go down a rabbit hole with creating tension around, "I'm sharing what I kind of know, and I'm going to let in and acknowledge you know some," provided the person does, and they're not just a bloody, you know what I'm about to say, rambling idiot. It's very uncomfortable to hold that space and be in that space, that vulnerability of having conviction and really desiring to grow and evolve beyond where you are. And I think it all goes down to fevers, we didn't allow these people to have fevers now they're bloody snowflakes and they won't be uncomfortable in that tension space.   Helen Padarin: (01:03:28) That is so true. That's it. And that tension, there's negative or bad, not good enough words for it that I have anyway, but there's bad tension and good tension, right? To simplify things. And I think that is a good kind of tension. That's like creative tension, that's a space that allows new things to grow from because there is this discomfort. And if we're comfortable, we don't tend to grow because it's just too comfortable, right? But if we can be in that space where we've come from a particular perspective or belief but we can be open to others and again, be curious with someone else who can also meet you there and be curious because it's very hard to do that... Still possible actually, but it's nice if you can do it with someone who can meet you there, then that's where innovation comes from and creativity comes from and how to make things better. So, yeah.   Mason: (01:04:37) Oh, amen. A-bloody-men. I'm aware time is getting around us a little bit, before we bring it home. I just want to quickly get your download on liver flushing because it's your other offering. It's been a little bit since I've done my own liver flush, I do like the idea when Southern hemisphere springtime comes around, jumping on and I guess just being a part of a community and then doing it with you guys in that way. But do you want to just quickly give the down-low? There are a lot of people here who might not have actually heard of liver flushing, where it comes from in terms of the old school herbal tradition and folk remedy, what the point is, what the benefits are, why it's a good idea to in the beginning maybe be professionally advised and led?   Helen Padarin: (01:05:35) Absolutely, yeah. So this is a programme we run a couple of times a year and I guess one of my simplified philosophies of life and health is that disease comes down to two things, too much of something and not enough of something. So what we're wanting to do is nourish and cleanse basically to create and maintain our health. And we're in this environment these days where we are inundated with exposures that as a human race, we've never been exposed to before since World War Two, there's just been an explosion of chemicals in our environment, in our food. And so our livers and our thyroid for that matter get very heavily affected. So our thyroid is really sensitive to a lot of environmental toxins and our liver and gallbladder function are heavily affected by our thyroid, I'd love to know the TCM connection here actually.   Mason: (01:06:39) I was literally just thinking, I wish I had like a Jamie, like a Joe Rogan Jamie and I'd be like-   Helen Padarin: (01:06:45) "Look that up for me."   Mason: (01:06:47) Yeah, just bring that up. I'm going to wobble the video a little bit guys. I'm like, I think I've got a book here, I'm not going to go into it. It's not here, but I have a book that basically is that, a TCM practitioner booklet. Yeah.   Helen Padarin: (01:07:03) Yeah. So there's thyroid receptors throughout your body, right? And your gallbladder needs thyroid hormone to be able to empty bile from the gallbladder. And you also need a good functioning liver to... The word's escaping me at the moment. To transfer your T3, sorry, your T4, your inactive thyroid hormone to active thyroid hormone, T3. That conversion mainly happens in the liver. So you need good liver function for your thyroid hormone to work properly. You need that thyroid hormone for your gallbladder to empty properly and for a gazillion and other things as well.   Helen Padarin: (01:07:49) So we do this liver and gallbladder flush to help out the liver, the gallbladder, the gut, the thyroid kind of everything, basically. So the liver is where we produce our bile, it gets stored in the gallbladder and then when we're eating fatty food, you get a squirt of bile out of the gallbladder to emulsify. It's kind of like a detergent and emulsifies the fats so that your lipase and your enzymes that break down fat can break that down and you can get your essential fatty acids and you

About CassidyCassidy is a Principal Developer Experience Engineer at Netlify. She's worked for several other places, including CodePen, Amazon, and Venmo, and she's had the honor of working with various non-profits, including cKeys and Hacker Fund as their Director of Outreach. She's active in the developer community, and one of Glamour Magazine's 35 Women Under 35 Changing the Tech Industry and LinkedIn's Top Professionals 35 & Under. As an avid speaker, Cassidy has participated in several events including the Grace Hopper Celebration for Women in Computing, TEDx, the United Nations, and dozens of other technical events. She wants to inspire generations of STEM students to be the best they can be, and her favorite quote is from Helen Keller: "One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar." She loves mechanical keyboards and karaoke.Links: Netlify: https://www.netlify.com/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cassidoo Newsletter: https://cassidoo.co/newsletter/ Scrimba: https://scrimba.com/teachers/cassidoo Udemy: https://www.udemy.com/user/cassidywilliams/ Skillshare: https://www.skillshare.com/user/cassidoo O'Reilly: https://www.oreilly.com/pub/au/6339 Personal website: https://cassidoo.co Twitter: https://twitter.com/cassidoo GitHub: https://github.com/cassidoo CodePen: https://codepen.io/cassidoo/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cassidoo TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of Cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lumigo. If you've built anything from serverless, you know that if there's one thing that can be said universally about these applications, it's that it turns every outage into a murder mystery. Lumigo helps make sense of all of the various functions that wind up tying together to build applications. It offers one-click distributed tracing so you can effortlessly find and fix issues in your serverless and microservices environment. You've created more problems for yourself; make one of them go away. To learn more, visit lumigo.io.Corey: I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Cassidy Williams, principal developer experience engineer at Netlify. Cassidy, thanks for joining me.Cassidy: Thanks for having me.Corey: So, you're famous in many circles for things that have nothing to do with your actual job. Or at least that's the perception. So, let's at least start there because I'm not sure we'll get back to it. What is Netlify? And what does a principal developer experience engineer do at such a place?Cassidy: Yeah, so the shortest answer is, it's a place where you can host your website. The longer answer is it's a whole development workflow. You can build whatever types of complex websites that you want, and we make it very easy to get it up and running. And my job there is on the developer experience team. And basically, what we do is we are developer experience engineers. We try to build things and show developers how to make their apps, their websites, their various products, and projects easier to build on Netlify.Corey: Sort of the whole idea of what I used to think of, I guess, as static websites and various ways to host it, which I think is now called Jamstack. But that probably also misses a fair bit of nuance because I'm going to be completely transparent here: I am crap at all things frontend.Cassidy: It takes all kinds to make a project work. Yeah, so it is more than static. I like to think of it more as static first. The way I've defined Jamstack, that kind of clicks with most people is, writing Jamstack—and for those who don't know, it initially was an acronym, where it was:, JavaScript, APIs, and Markup stack. And so, it's less about technologies and more about the philosophy of building websites.But the philosophy of it is, it's kind of like building mobile applications, but in the browser, where you try to build as much as you can upfront, and then pull data in as needed. Because in a mobile application, when you have something native, you don't, server-side, render the UI every single time. The UI is built pretty—Corey: Well, not with that attitude anyway.Cassidy: [laugh]. That's true. That's true. But when you're on a mobile app, you don't normally pull in the UI every single time. It's built-in, and then you pull in data as needed; sometimes it's local, sometimes it's on a server somewhere. And that's what Jamstack is all about. It's building as much as you can upfront and then pulling in data as needed.Corey: The idea is incredibly compelling, and it gets at a emerging trend that I don't think that there's any escaping, and—maybe this is overblown, I'd love to get your feedback on it—I can't shake the feeling that JavaScript is the future—not necessarily a frontend—in general, when it comes to, effectively, computers. We're seeing it on the backend, we're seeing it on the frontend, the major cloud providers are all moving in a direction of approaching folks who have JavaScript experience, and that's the only certainty in that persona that they wind up identifying. It is very clearly not going away while getting more capable. Is that fair? Is that missing something? What's the deal there?Cassidy: I keep hearing there's, like, a rule that people are saying, like, “If it can be built in JavaScript, it will,” because I think it started as kind of this toy language that people didn't really take seriously. But it has not only become more powerful, but also browsers have become more powerful too, and you can just build more and more with it. And because it's kind of a low barrier-to-entry language, it's relatively simple to at least initially learn JavaScript before you get into all the nuances of everything, that I think, just because there are more people using it and it's easier and faster to pick up then something like assembly or C++ or something. I hesitate to make generalizations because you never know, but it does feel like that sometimes, that JavaScript is just the way that things are going.Corey: And I admit, a couple of times I have tried to get into the JavaScript world, and it isn't clicking for me. My lingua franca is crappy Python. And it's just crappy enough to run, but it's neither elegant nor well-designed. It is also barely functional. And every time I have brought in an actual developer to turn some of my scripts into something a bit more robust, they ask me what it does, they smile and nod a lot and never take their eyes off me for a second, and then immediately get rid of everything I might possibly have touched.This is, of course, a best practice where I'm involved. But it runs. Like, “This is the worst code I've ever run.” “Ah, yes, but it does run.” The problem I have with JavaScript is that I do not understand it. The idea of asynchronous calls on a browser completely melt my brain whenever I look at it.That's caused a few of my early naive mistakes where, “Oh, go ahead and set this value and then use it here down below, and—wait. Why is it completing before it has that value and it's not you—what is going on here?” And now I understand the general principles of it, but I'm still getting lost and confused in the weeds. Now, is this just another expression of being secretly terrible? Or is there a nuance here that I'm not picking up on?Cassidy: I was smiling the entire time you were saying this because I feel like almost everybody who is new to JavaScript coming from another language has had the exact same issues. So, you're not alone, and you're not a total idiot. [laugh].Corey: So, I decided that it was time to learn it the second time, and I—all right, I'm going to break my own rule, which is the way I normally learn something new is I'll dive into it and start building something and then we'll see what happens. Sure, it means I'm a full stack overflow developer, and my primary IDE is copying and pasting, but I can get something sort of functional that works. That approach wasn't working for me, so what I did on my second attempt was odd. I'm going to go actually do the unthinkable for me, and read some documentation and/or some tutorials.And I was almost immediately blown off course there because suddenly, I find myself just wandering onto what I can only describe as a battlefield between all of the different frameworks I could have chosen between, and it seemed like the winning move was not to play. What am I missing? Are these frameworks hard requirements for doing anything that even remotely resembles frontend in a responsible way? Are they nice-to-haves? Is it effectively an aside current debate that I got suckered into and lost the forest for the trees?Cassidy: You probably got sucked into many debates because there are so many in this world, I do not think you need a framework to do complex web apps or any web apps. I mean, my personal website, as much as I love React—and I'm deep in the React world—I did that with vanilla HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, and that's all it is. And plenty of the projects that I do, I start with vanilla, and then I add React as needed. I think it's something where these frameworks, you don't need them, but it's really nice once you start building large applications where you don't want to reinvent the wheel. Because there have been plenty of times on my own projects on other projects, where I start to basically start implementing state-driven components, and trying to parse templates and stuff that I end up making for myself. Where if I did React, I probably wouldn't need to actually implement all of those. And so you don't need these frameworks. That being said, they can be very helpful as you make more complex projects.Corey: So, I periodically post an architectural diagram of the pipeline slash workflow thing I use to write my newsletter every week. And I was on the verge of just hiring a frontend developer to build something frontend because it turns out that there's not a great experience in using a whole bunch of shell scripts that require a CLI to post at random API endpoints. And then a discovered Retool, which is one of those low-code tools that more or less is Visual Basic for frontend. It was transformative because suddenly, it's, “Oh. When I click this button, make this query that hits some API that I can define,” and oh my stars. It was transformative, and I was actively annoyed I hadn't discovered it years ago.Cassidy: [laugh]. Yeah, all of those low-code tools for web devs, they've been growing, that is a really interesting realm of the web that I'm curious about. I've played around with quite a few of them, and some of them, I kind of end up just wishing that I built it myself in the first place, and then for some of the others, I'm like, “You know, this saved me some time.” And yeah, I think those things are really, really powerful. I don't know if they'll ever fully replace having an actual developer, but for a lot of individual smaller tasks, it's really nice to not have to, again, reinvent the wheel.Corey: And you're right. These tools are getting more capable. The problem I have is, whenever I talk to the teams building these things, they're super excited about them and can't wait to show them off. And then I say, “Just a quick question. Of all your engineers here, how many of them don't know JavaScript?”And the answer is always the same. None of them? Great. Yeah. Now, there's an opportunity to present this to existing frontend developers so they can get back to what they were doing when they build a quick internal tool for someone else in a business unit, but there's an entire untapped market of people like me who don't understand JavaScript. So, when we see these things described in JavaScript context, it looks like it's not for us, even though it very much is. There's something to be said for making things accessible to an audience that would benefit from them.Cassidy: Yeah. I've actually given a few talks where it's geared towards a backend developer who might want to dip their toe into frontend but have no idea where to start. And that is a whole world of people who are like you who just don't understand the DOM in the browser, and how the interactions happen, and how the async await stuff works, and how promises work and everything. And they're very weird concepts that just aren't in other parts of programming, typically. And I think that's a marketing problem where a lot of these low-code tools or no-code tools don't understand the opportunity that's available to them.Corey: I think that there's a misunderstanding in many respects, where I've also seen a fair bit of, I can only call it technical bigotry, I guess, is the best framing here of, “Oh, where frontend is easy, and backend is the hard stuff, and that's really where it's at.” And having worked with qualified teams on both sides and looking at all the intricacies on both sides, where the hell does that come from?Cassidy: You know, I think it just comes from the past.Corey: So, do I. And I don't agree with it. It's just such a misunderstanding and a trivialization of such a valuable area of things. It kills me every time I see it.Cassidy: Yeah, it's frustrating, I admit, because I've faced that a lot in my career. I actually—I used to do backend. I used to do Python stuff, and I have a computer science degree, but plenty of times, there's some kind of backend dev who's just like, “Eh, well, I know HTML and CSS, so I know frontend.” And that's about it. Or they'll say, “Well, do you really need to know this kind of algorithm or this way of doing things in an optimized way because you're just putting a pretty face on the data that we're producing for you.”And it's an annoying sentiment. And I really think that it's just from a previous time because a long time ago, from five to seven to ten years ago, that might have been more true because we didn't have some of these frameworks that do a lot on the frontend. And we didn't have things like GraphQL, and really powerful tools on the frontend. Where back then, it was a lot of the backend doing stuff, and then the frontend making it look good. But now the work is distributed a bit more where our backend teams, I can say, “Build however you want. You can change your language to Rust, to Go, to whatever, do whatever you want; as long as the data is exposed to me, I can use it and run with it.”And then all the routing ends up happening on the frontend, all of the management of that data happens on the frontend, all of the organization and optimizing for the browser happens on the frontend. And so I think both sides have been empowered in recent years in that regard because, again, with that modularity, you can scale a lot better, but those lingering sentiments are still there. And they're annoying, but unfortunately, we've got to live with them sometimes.Corey: So, let's talk as well about, I guess, sort of the elephant in the room. Your Twitter feed is one of the most obnoxious parts of my day, specifically because every time you post something I am incredibly envious about the insight it provides, the humor inherent in it. “I wish I had thought to go in that direction,” is almost always my immediate response. And, ugh, it kills me. Let's talk a little bit about that. How did it start? And how is it continuing?Cassidy: That's a good question. So, I've always been a bit of a clown, both on and off the internet, but I was never very, very public about it, for a while there. Either that or just had a small audience and people were just like, “There she goes again. Maybe she'll shut up someday.” And so I've always had those little drops of humor where I can because I think I'm amusing myself at least.But about a year and a half ago, I discovered TikTok. And with TikTok, basically, it has such a good video editor—that was the only reason why I got the app because it made it so easy to make videos on my phone—where I was able to suddenly not just type my tweet jokes and my snarky humor, I could make a video about it, I could add music to it, I could make a dumb face. And people seem to like it, and it's worked out.And I try to approach things rather from a realistic or educational perspective first and then drop in the humor later, I don't try to lead with the joke, but at the same time, it's always fun to have a joke in there because people like to say, “Oh, something funny is happening. I'm getting ready for it.” And it's kind of fun that I'm able to do that a lot more now that people actually expect humor. [laugh].Corey: When I was an employee—which I was, let's be very clear here, terrible at. There is no denying that—it was always a problem for me where the biggest fear that anyone had—start to finish—was that I would open my mouth and say something. And credit where due, my last job was at a large finance company. And at that point, they're under such scrutiny that anytime someone opens their mouth on anything, it has the potential to trigger an SEC investigation, and no one knows what I'm going to say. Yeah, there's a lot of validity and being concerned about that.I felt like I couldn't ever just shoot my mouth off and be me. And I always had this approach of, no company in the world would ever be willing to tolerate my shenanigans, therefore, I should never look to either do these things in public or later, go to be an employee again. You're living proof that it is in fact possible to have both.Cassidy: Yeah. It brings a levity to our very serious industry—I used to be in FinTech; I know how serious that can be—but then just in tech in general, a lot of tech people take themselves way too seriously. And I understand we're doing awesome work. Some people think they're gods because they can think something and make it into an app. There's ego there, but I feel like making fun of the problems, pointing out the problems in the industry and, kind of, just making light of it and making certain tech jokes and making certain concepts humorous as well as educational, I think bringing that approach to things is just really, really effective.And I'm really happy to be on my team, honestly, at Netlify because a bunch of them are just dorks [laugh] where pretty much every single meeting, we try to make it a little bit fun. And it makes our meeting so much more enjoyable and productive because we're not just seriously staring at our screens and saying, “Okay, let's make this decision for our OKRs,” or anything like that. We have a good time in these meetings while being productive, and it makes for a really nice team dynamic. And I think there should be more of that, in general, in tech.Corey: One of the things that you have always done with your platform that I am, I guess, slowly warming up to is that you're never mean, or in the rare occasions where you punch at something, it's a dynamic; it's not a company and it's not a person. I have a strong rule of not punching at people, but large companies have always been fair game from my perspective. And that is a mixed bag. Yours is—how to put this—unrelentingly positive where it's always about building people up, and shining a light on things that used to be confusing, and reminding people that they're not alone in being confused by those things. And that's no small thing.Cassidy: Yeah. I appreciate you noticing that. I do try to do that, not only, necessarily, to be just like, “I want to be the positive star in tech,” but also because you never know what someone is dealing with, and someone might be pretty mean, and there have been plenty of people who have said some not great things towards me or towards other people and that cuts deep. And so I do try to avoid those kinds of pointed things. Believe me, it's difficult; sometimes I do just want to call people out and be just like, “I know what you did to this group of people, and I hate it.” But you never know what people are going through, and I'd rather just make sure that the people who are doing well are the ones who are uplifted, and they get the attention that they need, or deserve, rather.Corey: I did a little research—I know, I know; shock—before I wound up inviting you here, and it's not just your Twitter account. It's not just your TikToks, it's not just your weekly multi-hour livestreaming on Twitch—or ‘Twetch' or however it's pronounced. I'm old, and that's fine—it's not the platforms; it's the fact that no matter where you are, you're constantly teaching people things. And I want to be clear, that doesn't seem like it's in your job description, is it?Cassidy: No, but it's something that I really care about. I really like teaching in general. A lot of the resources that I provide and the things that I do are me trying to give people things that I didn't have when I was in the industry, trying to give advice that I wish I had, trying to give resources that I didn't have. Because a lot of times, people don't know where to look, and if I can be that person that can help them along, some of the greatest joys I've ever felt have been when people say, “This blog post that you wrote helped me get my first job,” or, “This thing that you said, was the kick in the pants that I needed to start my own company.” Little things like that. I love hearing it because I really just love making people successful and helping them get to that next step in their careers. And that's my passion project, and I tried to do that and all the things that I do.Corey: There's really something to be said about being able to reach people who have pain and have needs. I mean, the one crossover talk that I gave that really transformed the way that I saw things was “Terrible Ideas in Git” because if there's one thing that unites frontend, backend, ops folks, data scientists, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it's Git as being the common thing that no one really understands. And by teaching people how to use Git, first, it was sort of my backdoor, sneaky hack into finally having to teach myself how Git works. But then it was a problem of where, now I need to go ahead and find a way to present this in a way that's engaging, and fun, and doesn't require being deep into the weeds. And I was invited to speak at Frontend Conference, Zurich, which was just a surreal experience.Incredibly nice people, very gracious community and I'm sitting there for the first half of the day watching the talks, and it's a frontend conference and everyone's slides are gorgeous. And this was before I started having a designer help me with my slides. So, it was always a black Helvetica text on a white background. And mine looked like crap, and I only had a few hours until my talk, so what do I do because I'm feeling incredibly out of place? I changed the font on everything to Comic Sans and leaned in on that.And it definitely got a reaction. The talk was great. It really did work. And it was fun. And in hindsight, I don't think I'd do it again because I keep hearing rumors that I can't quite confirm, but it's significant enough that I want to be clear, that Comic Sans is apparently super accessible when it comes to people with dyslexia, and I don't want to crap on something like that. It's not funny when it makes people feel out of place.Cassidy: Yeah. These kinds of things, it's delicate to talk about because you have to figure out, okay, how can I make this accessible to as many people as possible? How can I communicate this information? And then, meanwhile, when you are this person, that just means your DMs are very, very full of people who want one-on-one help and you have to figure out how to scale yourself, and how can you make these statements that are helpful for as many people as possible, provide as many resources as you can, and hope that people don't feel bad when you can't answer every DM that comes your way. And yeah, there's a delicacy when it comes to all the different things that you could be poking fun at, or saying you don't like, and stuff, and my answer to pretty much everything has turned into just, “It depends.”Whenever people are just like, “What's the best framework to learn?” I'm kind of like, “Eh, it depends on what you want to build.” Because first of all, that's true, but second of all, there's enough opinions out there in the world saying, like, “This is the worst font.” “This is the best font.” “This is the worst way to build web apps.” “This is the only way to build web apps.” I mean, you hear this constantly throughout the tech industry. And I think if more people said, “It depends,” we would be a [laugh] much happier industry in general.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: I really think that you're right, and I think the hardest part is getting there. You say that the answer to, “What framework should I pick?” Is, “Well, it depends.” And that's very true. The counterargument is that it's also supremely unhelpful. It's—Cassidy: Right.Corey: —“I'm looking to build a web page that has a form on it, and when I click a button, it does a thing.” And at that point, it feels like it's, “Well, there are an entire field of yaks before you, all of them need to be shaved before the form will exist.” And it just becomes this. “Oh, my god, are you just trying to tell me not to bother?” And no, that's never the response.But having a blessing, I guess, golden path of where you can focus to get something done, and then where it makes sense to deviate gets signaled, I like that approach. But people are for some reason worried about being overly prescriptive. And I get that too.Cassidy: Yeah, there's a balance there. But I should append to my previous answer. I say, “It depends, but here's how I would do it.” And that gives some direction. Some people might be just like, “Oh, well, I don't want to use React,” or something like that, and I'm like, “Well, then, unfortunately, I can't help you. You're on your own. But I'm sure it'll work for you.” And just kind of roll with it from there because you never know.Corey: Yeah, what I've never liked the questions that the asker already has an answer they want to hear, and they're looking for, almost, confirmation bias.Cassidy: Yeah.Corey: Yeah.Cassidy: That's common.Corey: At that point, why bother? Just say, “This is what I'm thinking about doing. Please tell me it's not ridiculous.” And if it is, people will generally try and be kinder about it. But we'll see.Cassidy: Yeah, a lot of times, too—and I hate to say it, but a lot of times, too, people come in with such an arrogant air, and oftentimes, that's either because they're insecure about something, or they don't have a lot of experience in something. But [unfortunately 00:23:27], that's almost always the case. There have been times on my stream, for example, where someone will say, “If you use this framework, it will solve 99% of your problems.” And I'm kind of like, “Eh, will it though?” And I don't want to just straight up say you're wrong, but I kind of have to keep asking questions and try to be one of those teachers where I'm saying, “Okay, I'm going to ask you these questions. Are you sure that this edge case is in that 1%? I think you're being a little bold here.” And not trying to specifically humble them, and know that they are wrong, but also turn it into a moment where you have to learn that nothing really solves 99% of your problems. [laugh].Corey: And whenever someone says something like that, I always assume conflict of interest somewhere. It's like, “With this framework you're suggesting, I don't know, just so happened to integrate super well with the thing your company does? Huh, how about that?” Whenever someone can't identify an area that they're offering is crap in, I assume that they're, effectively, evangelizing something with almost a religious fervor, and aren't really people to take overly seriously. I have technologies that I adore, but if I can't articulate use cases in which they would be wildly inappropriate, then I'm not really being fair, either to the person I'm talking to, honestly, the product itself.Cassidy: Exactly. There's always cons. Yes, there might be a lot of pros and the pros may outweigh the cons, but you have to be able to speak to those if you're going to give a credible answer to any sort of recommendation like that.Corey: So, let's talk about platforms a little bit. You have a newsletter which I'm a fan of, and will of course link in the [show notes 00:25:05]. You stream on Twitch, which is similar to a podcast, only it's video and it's live so, unlike here where we can edit heavily if someone winds up breaking down crying, like I tend to every third episode—Cassidy: Yeah, we should cut out those farts earlier, by the way.Corey: Oh, yeah. Oh, we've already edited that out.Cassidy: Okay, great. [laugh].Corey: We're already set. We do this in real-time here. But you have to do things like that in real-time on Twitch; as soon as something happens on camera, it's done, it's out there, and it's a very different experience. You do it also on hard mode, where you and I are having a conversation back and forth, whereas when you do Twitch, you're doing it solo. You are effectively in an empty room—or what appears to be one anyway—and you're talking to the camera, and there's no other audio other than you and a lovely backing track.There's no conversation, you are monologuing for the duration of that. People mention things in the chat with a slight delay, and then you can take action based upon that. But that feels like an awful lot of pressure to wind up filling the dead air while you're waiting for the next question to come in.Cassidy: Yeah, it's something that has taken practice. And I think it's something that because I have done quite a bit of public speaking, I've done a bunch of teaching, I am comfortable with the silence. And the music also helps that a lot. Some people when they are about to livestream, or they're learning how to livestream for the first time they kind of panic at the silence. They're like, “Oh, my gosh, how am I going to fill it?”Meanwhile, with me, I'm just like, “Ah, nobody's asking a question. I can take a drink of water now.” And try to keep it as natural as possible. I try to make this stream—I started doing it more regularly during the pandemic, as something that's kind of just co-working and kind of having something in the background, because usually when people are in the office or working at a cafe or something, you get to hear interesting conversations, and a voice, and you can chime in on occasion. And I try to make that what the stream is where people don't have to be paying excessive attention, but I open it up where you can ask me pretty much anything and I will give you an honest answer, and just try to make it a space where people can not worry about asking a stupid question because I think that none of these questions, whether it's about tech jobs, or certain frameworks, or opinions about things, none of them are dumb.Sometimes it's just people who aren't sure what the answer should be, or they aren't sure if their biases are correct or anything like that. And I really enjoy the livestream because it gives me a connection with the community that I can help teach further. And then as they ask questions, I can take that and run with it, and build a demo, help them come up with project ideas, show how I would build something, something like that.Corey: Oh, there's an incredible authenticity to what you do, and that is, I think, one of the most impressive aspects of what you do. I've never yet seen you make someone feel like a jerk for asking a question. I've also never once seen you claim you knew how something worked when you didn't. You point people at resources to find the right answer. You are constantly gracious, you're always incredibly authentic, and it's become really easy to consume your materials because I know you're not going to make it up if you don't know the answer. And that's no small thing.Cassidy: Thank you. [laugh]. I appreciate that. It's not easy, but it's very fun. And I do hope that it makes people more comfortable with the concept of streaming, coding, and any of that.Corey: You also seem to have some of the same problems than I do, specifically—not the jerk problems. That's unique to me—but the problem in the context of answering a difficult question, namely, “So, what is it you do?” Because as mentioned, you have the newsletter, you have the job, you have the Twitch stream, you have the TikTok, you have the Twitter. You do courses from time to time, if I'm not mistaken, as well?Cassidy: Yes, I do. I have a few online courses on Scrimba on Udemy on Skillshare on O'Reilly. I like teaching JavaScript and showing people how React works, and stuff, under the hood. And you're right, it's hard to explain what I do sometimes. [laugh].Corey: And that's the hard part is when someone asks, “So, what do you do?” What's your default answer?Cassidy: I have created this tagline that I'm kind of just sticking with, and we'll see how long it lasts me. But I say, “I make memes, streams, and software.” And I just kind of leave it at that, and people be like, “Okay, Cassidy, shut up.” [laugh] and I leave it at that. But yeah, if someone asks me what I do, I kind of start with, “I code.”And then if they press further, I'll be like, “Well, I teach people how to code, and I show people how to code best.” And usually, that's where my grandpa stops asking. He's just like, “Okay, it's that computer stuff.” If it's a tech person, I start diving more and more into all of the things, and it's very hard to explain. I wish there were a word for trying to make people laugh, and teach, and build things, and stuff, but I don't know what that word would be.Corey: Yeah, it's a hard problem. My answer has always been to spin it depending upon who I'm talking to.Cassidy: True.Corey: If it's at a neighborhood barbecue and people ask what I do, I try and make myself sound like some sort of esoteric accountant because if I say even slightly incorrectly what I do, suddenly people are asking me about their printers. And honestly, how do I fix a printer? I throw it away and I buy a new one, but that's not really helpful to people who are looking for actual help. So, it's a matter of aligning what I do with people's expectations. “I make fun of Amazon for a living,” is technically accurate, but boy does that get some strange looks.Cassidy: [laugh]. Yeah, it definitely, definitely varies on the audience. If I'm, for example, going to some kind of church barbecue, I just say, oh, I'm a software engineer. Questions stop there, and I leave it at that. If I'm at a tech meetup, I'll be just like, “Oh, well, I specialize on frontend things, but I also do some dev advocacy and stuff.”And I can generally stop there. But you're right, depending on the audience, I have to be careful because I don't want people to just ask me to fix their WiFi all the time, even though they do anyway. And to them. I usually say oh, I build computer things. I don't know how to work them, though. And I leave it at that.Corey: Oh, hey, I'm building a computer, too. Can you recommend some parts? Absolutely not. Is my—Cassidy: Nope.Corey: —I don't know what I'm doing there.Cassidy: I kind of just Google and accept whatever I'm told. [laugh].Corey: Yeah. And the other side of it, too, is if you're not direct enough and say, “Working with technology,” people tend to think that you're being condescending. It's like, “Oh, I do some cloud computing finance work.” And they're like, “Oh, so what, you fix an AWS bill?” Yeah, exactly. “You could just say that, you know?” “Well, yeah. To you, but there's a whole world of people out there to whom that sounds like I'm blowing them off with geekspeak.”Cassidy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's almost harder if it's a mixed group of people, too, because sometimes people who are in tech but I don't know the rest of the people, they might say, “Oh, she makes tech jokes on Twitter.” And they'll say, “Oh, really? Say something funny.” I'm like, “Uh—I don't know how.” [laugh]. It's not that easy. It's interesting trying to figure out how you define that for other people.Corey: “Oh, you're a comedian. Great. Make me laugh.” Like, “Oh, God.”Cassidy: Just please, no.Corey: Yeah, that's the best setup for a good belly laugh is command performance of, be funny when you weren't expecting it?Cassidy: Yeah. Ugh, can't handle it. I just freeze up and give up.Corey: Ugh. Again, these are not common problems. One thing that I did find incredibly funny was that when we started talking, we talked about things that we had encountered as we wound up going through expanding audiences on Twitter and whatnot. And you sent a screenshot, at one point, of tracking your Twitter follower count over time in a private Slack channel that you had. And you said, “This is ridiculous, and no one ever does it.” And then I responded with a screenshot of me doing the exact same thing, which is—Cassidy: So funny.Corey: —first, hilarious because I've never seen anyone else do that. And, two, a bit of product feedback, perhaps, for the team at Twitter.Cassidy: It really is. Yeah, no, when I found out you did that, too, I laughed so hard because so many times people have been just like, “You know there's tools for this? You don't have to just write a number in DM to yourself on Slack.” But this is the tool that works for me. It's quick. It's done. I can see, generally, how things are going. Someday I should put it in a graph of some type, but eh.Corey: But it's always forward-looking, too, because all those tools don't go back in time to your account's inception. And, “Oh, you had this person follow you at this time.” There's no historical record there.Cassidy: Yeah. It is totally product feedback. I have no idea how I'd be able to say, “Hey, look at this DM, fix this problem,” to a specific Twitter person, but, eh.Corey: Four years ago, I had 1500 Twitter followers and it had taken me seven years to do it. And people ask, “What were the big inflection points when you wound up getting significant audience boosts?” And if I had dates on that stuff, I could absolutely do some correlation like, “Oh, there's re:Invent.” “Oh, that's where I was visibly thrown out of a bar on the news.” Kidding. But being able to tie it to things like that would be helpful, but it's happened, it's gone. I just have to basically try and remember, and assume I'm somewhat close to accurate.Cassidy: Yeah. And I don't do it consistently, mind you, there's definitely weeks where I just totally miss it. But sometimes, for example, if I'm about to tweet something funny, I'll mark it and then make the post and just see where it goes. And it's more just interesting for me; I will probably never share this with people, besides you when we talk about our [laugh] strategies. But yeah, I mean, I guess that also speaks to building what's best for you is often the best solution.Corey: Yeah, and it changes, too. And the part of the reason that these conversations tend to happen behind closed doors because the easy, naive response is, “Oh, that'd be super interesting to watch and see how those problems get addressed.” But so much of what we're doing and how we approach it is not helpful until you're at a certain point of scale. If you have 200 Twitter followers, for example, frankly, you're making better life choices and either one of us are, but the things that we are concerned with and have to pay attention to, just don't apply in any meaningful way.Cassidy: Right.Corey: Conversely, if you have a small following Twitter account, that is a freedom that we don't really have because past a certain point, as I'm sure you can attest, you can't say that you like waffles without getting someone asking, “Well, what's the problem you have with pancakes?” And then insulting you and following you around until you block them.Cassidy: It's so true. I was talking with someone about this yesterday because it's not like I ever say things that are particularly controversial or anything, but word choice matters so much more when there are a lot of eyes on you. And so many times I'll make a joke, and then I have to do a follow-up tweet saying, “This is a joke. Please don't tell me how to exit vim.” Or something like that. Because oh, my word. People just will never take things the right way en masse.Corey: No, I have learned there's no possible way to say something without it being misinterpreted. And I try and wind up turning it back around, and every time I read something, I do my best to assume good faith. I don't always succeed, and sometimes I look like a fool for basically taking a troll seriously, but I'd rather that than the alternative of someone asks a naive question, and I assume they're just being a jerk and block them or I mock them. Because the failure mode of me looking like I got hoodwinked is better than making someone else feel crappy.Cassidy: Right. Exactly. I remember a while ago, this was, like, a couple years ago, there was someone who was not being nice to me in the mentions, and I was just like, “Why would you respond to me like this? Just leave me alone.” I said something like that.And it was a lesson for me and for them, where they ended up getting really upset with me and yelling at me in the DMs because they were getting all of this negative commentary on there and for being the mean one, and then I end up looking like a jerk because I ended up spotlighting this person who might have been having a bad day. You never know. And the algorithm works against you when you have a lot of eyes who are looking at what you're tweeting about. And so, yeah, you have whenever stuff like that happens, you kind of just have to ignore it and learn to pick your battles, I guess.Corey: Oh, yeah. And I assume that's going on now. I imagine that one day, the AWS Twitter account is going to finally snap and just quote-tweet me with some incredible roast and there will be no coming back from that for me. I look forward to that day. It would be so nice to see that come out of them. I worry, I may die before it gets there, but hope springs eternal.Cassidy: [laugh].Corey: Cassidy, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to hear more about what you have to say—as they damn well should—okay can they find you? Take a deep breath; run through the list.Cassidy: All right, they can find me on all sorts of platforms. You could look up Cassidy Williams, and you'll find either me or a Scooby-Doo character, and I'm not the Scooby-Doo character. Or you could look up cassidoo—C-A-S-S-I-D-O-O—cassidoo.co is my website, cassido on Twitter on GitHub on CodePen on LinkedIn all those platforms. That's where you can find me.Corey: And we will put links to all of those things in the [show notes 00:38:03] because honestly, that's someone else's job, and I am going to hurl that mess to them.Cassidy: [laugh]. Perfect.Corey: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate that.Cassidy: It was really fun. It was good chatting with you, too.Corey: It really was. Cassidy Williams, principal developer experience engineer at Netlify. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an aggressive comment encouraging me to fight you on Twitch, however that might work.Announcer: This has been this week's episode of Screaming in the Cloud. You can also find more Corey at screaminginthecloud.com, or wherever fine snark is sold.This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

From starting a hedge fund to owning the DTC beauty market in China is a career path you don't hear too often. But that's the winding road that Julian Reis has traveled and along the way he's picked up some critical intel about the ecommerce world and Chinese trends that he shared with me on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.There are a bevy of factors to take into account when entering the Chinese market. From the vast differences in the way consumers shop in China to the sheer volume of consumers that can make a huge boom in sales in a matter of moments, there is a lot to contend with. And how does a brand even get in front of a consumer without traditional ads or email marketing? And what about social media? Or regulations? Julian explains how to take all that information into account and build an ecommerce strategy that lets you win abroad. Plus, he dives into how his company, SuperOrdinary is working with top skincare brands to enter the Chinese market, and some of the experiences that can be expected when embarking on this new path. What a fascinating discussion that was so different than any interviews I have had so far, enjoy!Main Takeaways:It's All Chinese To Me: Brands might want to expand to the Chinese market and believe that there is a huge opportunity there, but rushing into the market without doing the proper research could be a huge mistake. Despite the fact that a lot of information is censored in Chinese, consumers there still find ways to access the content that is important to them. Brands need to get more social awareness, learn about what Chinese consumers are interested in and let their actions reveal whether or not you have a product-market fit before trying to make a splash in that market.Platforms vs. Pages: There has been a bifurcation of ecommerce between platforms and webpages. The debate about where to invest more is coming down to how you see your customers acting. SuperOrdinary's theory of the case is that platforms are the way of the future because at the end of the day, customers spend more time on Amazon and Tmall than on a company's website. Therefore, more focus should be on creating content that drives engagement on those platforms. Boom and Bust: In China, the volume of consumers is so much higher and there is so much more emphasis on influencers and celebrities, that if something goes viral, a brand could do millions of sales in a matter of seconds. Being prepared for that kind of boom is very different from working in the U.S., where you prepare for steady growth over a longer period of time.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Julian Reis, the CEO and Founder of SuperOrdinary. Julian, welcome.Julian:Thank you, Stephanie. Lovely to meet you.Stephanie:I'm happy you're here. I'm glad you're not in Hong Kong. I was a little bit worried at first. Like, it's got to be 2:00 AM for this guy, talking on the show. I mean, I would have also appreciated that, but that's okay. Before we dive in to SuperOrdinary, I want to hear about your background because you have a very fascinating background, and I want to hear what led you to the beauty industry.Julian:Great. Thank you for having me. Well, first of all my background, I'm half Australia, half Chinese Portuguese. I was born in Australia, and at the tender age of five I moved to Singapore, where I followed my parents. My dad was working for Pizza Hut. And my twin brother, who's identical, we grew up in Singapore and we kind of were brought into this world to experience all these different cultures, and really thank my parents for giving us such an international upbringing. We all went to these international schools in Singapore, and then Hong Kong, and really got a flavor for all the different Southeast Asian countries growing up. I went to study in the UK to confuse myself even more, and studied economics at University of Nottingham. And Justin, my brother, was in London at the London School of Economics. And we kind of had these parallel paths where we didn't know what we wanted to do after university. And I was always intrigued by the financial markets when I was at university. I always thought that ... This was at the time when we still had analog Internet, dial-ups. I was always curious to see how people were thinking about this global economy.Julian:I applied to probably 150 jobs after university, and got very disheartened that I couldn't move to Tokyo, which I had this dream to always live in Japan. And I found myself finding a job eventually in New York, at J.P. Morgan. I was one of 3,000 applicants to the markets training program, which was a rotation through JP Morgan training program. And I still don't know how I got it, but I was so thankful. I went to New York without even an interview, and basically phoned from downstairs and told the graduate recruitment officer that, "Hey, I'm downstairs. You might as well see me." And suddenly, I got the job. I feel very, very lucky for that.Julian:Went from there to, as a trader, I was trading derivatives in fixed income, which is straight derivatives. And that really started to shape my career, about thinking about the macro markets and how you need to think about the world. And after three years, I moved back to Asia and found myself working at Deutsche Bank and building my career as a proprietary trader.Julian:And then I realized that I would love to try and build my own business. And in finance, you either work at the lease investment banks as a trader ... Because the idea of a hedge fund was still very new. And when I was 27, I decided to go alone and start my own hedge fund. And tried to rustle up as much money from my friends and family, and realized I didn't have that many friends and family. And started my first hedge fund, which was called Pagoda Capital, which was one of the first macro funds in Singapore. I got acquired by Tudor Capital a year later and became CEO of their Asian business, building out their macro strategies in Singapore and Australia.Stephanie:How did they want to acquire you after a year? What were you doing? You must have been doing something amazing.Julian:You know, it was kind of interesting at the time because we were one of the only funds in Asia doing what we were doing. And there clearly was ... And this actually dovetails into what we're doing now because we saw this opportunity to build a business around the Asian markets, and many of these big, large, successful brands or hedge funds in US wanted to get exposure to this market. And the way they did that was find like-minded individuals who were trading, and eventually we came together and built this business. And Paul Tudor Jones is still, to this day, one of the guys I idolize the most in the world. And that gave me my introduction to the financial markets.Stephanie:Very cool. Okay, so your hedge fund gets acquired. You're working there for a bit. And then what?Julian:And then what? I moved to the UK again, working at a new hedge fund which I founded. And I realized that the common thread to all of this was that I really enjoyed building businesses. And I really felt like from zero to one when you're building a business, it's all about hiring the right people and building successful partnerships. And after a couple of years of working in the hedge fund industry, we entered 2008, which was obviously the financial crisis. And what became really apparent and important to me was that this was not sustainable, and that it was really exciting to see what other opportunities there were for me in my life. And at the time, was a very difficult time because to change out of a career or something that you'd been trained in to move to a completely different industry was very scary. And I thought long and hard about making that decision.Julian:And I met this lady who was starting a Groupon startup, and I said, "Listen, if you decide to do something in beauty, come back to me because I think there's a really big opportunity." And I started to see that the Asian population or the communities were really interested in foreign brands. And I was a founding investor of a company called Luxola, which was the ecommerce 1.0, distributing brands in Southeast Asia. And after two years, was acquired by LVMH to become Sephora's digital presence in Southeast Asia. So, really got an understanding about learning, about building and investing in the beauty side.Julian:And then I thought, well, why not try my hand at building my own brand? So, moved to the US to start a brand called Skin Laundry, which is a skincare brand focused on disrupting services. And really proud of what Skin Laundry has become today. It's now in five countries around the world, in the Middle East, London, Hong Kong and all throughout the US.Stephanie:Did you sell that?Julian:No, I didn't. The brand is still operational. I still remain one of the largest shareholders in the business. But really brought a management team in to really accelerate the brand. I think it's a very unique concept, and continues to be a loved brand by the customers. And I think by working and building a brand on that side, really started to, when I was back in Hong Kong and I noticed in China many of the brands that we were exposed to whilst we were in the US were not available in China. And that's where SuperOrdinary was born.Julian:I moved to Shanghai three and a half, almost four years ago now. And kind of just wanted to study how brands are being bought and sold in China. And then the light bulb went off and said to me, "This is an incredible opportunity. All these digital native brands that we see in the aisle of Sephora and Ulta and Mecca, why aren't they available?" So, I started the company and started hiring my first-year employees in a country that I had very little experience in. And I didn't speak the local language. I could only speak pidgin Mandarin. And I said, "Well, this seems like a big enough challenge. Let's go."Stephanie:That's a niche, [inaudible] opportunity. All these brands should be in China but they weren't. I mean, what are some of the top reasons why brands maybe don't even think about bringing their products to China? Because from the outside, it does feel scary, and regulations. And does the customer there even want what we love here? Seems like very different things that they love versus maybe what I might like. What are some of the reasons that you hear brands are like, "I've never thought about that before"?Julian:Well, I think the first thing which you kind of touched upon is the regulation. First of all, animal testing is obviously something that many of the brands, or most of the brands in our portfolio, goes against the DNA of what they believe in terms of cruelty-free. Luckily on May the 1st, animal testing regulations now be announced to have gone away, which is incredible because it just opens up this huge, untapped, physical market domestically.Julian:I think because of that restriction, it was very difficult for brands to enter China, and so everyone hears of these stories about Chinese tourists coming overseas and bringing back suitcases of products in the suitcases, and reselling them locally. And I think what happened was that the government obviously realized that this was happening and said, "Rather than smuggling products into the country, let's create a channel for these products to enter the country on a legitimate basis, and let's make sure that they're real products, authenticated, they're registered, and then they can be sold."Julian:But in order to do this, this channel which we call the cross-border channel, only limits the amount of products that you can sell to an individual consumer in China on a given month or a given year. There's a quota in terms of absolute R&D value. Whilst it's an exciting channel and it continues to grow, represents close to 20% of the ecommerce market, obviously there are restrictions for that. We started our business as a cross-border business which allows us to work with brands anywhere from Farmacy to The Ordinary, to Drunk Elephant, Supergoop!, and we really have an incredible partner portfolio. And to be able to build their presence in China by creating a profile for them on social media in all the different channels, on Tmall, and really build a brand from zero and continue to grow them there across multiple channels. That's how we started.Julian:Now, we currently have globally close to 300 employees in the company now, most of which are based in China. And I think what we do as a business is really provide that one-stop-shop service where we really build your brand. Where we call ourselves not a distributor. I would almost call ourselves the general manager of your brand in China, because we do everything that you would do as a brand owner by operating your brand in a foreign market.Stephanie:Yeah. What are some of the tests that you do to figure out what the market here even wants this? Because that seems like a big thing. If a brand comes to you and they're like, "I'm selling this," and you're like, "That might not even go well here." What are some things that you think about if a brand should even try to enter China.Julian:Yeah. I think, I mean that's the million dollar question. And I think what we do, we've gotten a lot better at it because I think the consumer there is very discerning, even though a lot of the information about that brand is not readily available on Chinese social media. There are ways to get it, and people do find out about it. What we typically do for any brand that wants to work with us is really have initially a conversation to really understand what the point of difference of the brand is. And really just see if there's a product market fit. We do a lot of desktop research around the brand, not only in its home market but in China to see how big that opportunity is. If someone comes to us and says, "Oh, we want to launch blonde hair dye in Shanghai and we think it's a big market because it's big in the UK," we have to question is there a demand for people to dye their hair blonde.Julian:And I think that's what we do, and we've gotten better at, is we test a lot of the products within our team. We have experts in each of the categories that we manage who really are our first port of call in terms of trying to see if there's an understanding or a demand for this product. Remember, all these brands have zero social awareness, and as the market's got more and more expensive to launch a brand, it's really important for us to make sure that if we get behind it, we're going to be able to spend the marketing dollars to get the brand to where it needs to be for it to make sense financially.Julian:After two weeks of very deep due diligence on the brand, we'll go back to the brand founder and say, "Listen, we think your hero product in America is this, but you know what? Actually in China, we think it's A, B and C." That helps us have this conversation and once we get to that point where we think that there's an alignment, we then start working on financial terms on how we would work together.Stephanie:What's interesting is that your background in the hedge fund world seems like it would be so helpful when coming and analyzing brands, and looking for opportunity.Julian:That's right.Stephanie:And looking at competitors and stuff. I mean, it seems like a perfect fit of how you came about even into this world, which is really fascinating.Julian:I think the hedge fund world really gave me an appreciation of data, and really thinking about data in a different way than I would normally do. For us to, whether it's analyzing the influences that we work with, or analyzing the livestreaming broadcast that we'll do tonight with Austin Li, or analyzing LTV and CAC on the brands that we manage, it's really become you're heavily reliant on it because if you don't rely on it, then you start to not make better decisions.Julian:And what we've done at SuperOrdinary is using that data that we give our brands, our partners, visibility into the consumer in China. And that gives us informed decisions on what products to make next. And I think that's really exciting for our brand partners, to know that this product, this moisturizer, may be too viscous on the skin. Or, this tint doesn't blend well with this lipstick shade. It's too bright. All of this information helps guide their product development. And for us to be successful, they have to be successful in their product development. So, data has become a really big part of our business model.Stephanie:Is there a different way they have to go about collecting the data there? Versus in the US, maybe you would do surveys, you would just directly ask, you would do your email marketing stuff. How would you go about collecting that data in a way that keeps you safe?Julian:Well, I think everything you learnt about business in the US market, you leave at the door when you walk through Shanghai Airport. And I think that's where you have to really come in with eyes wide open to say, "How is the consumer interacting?" First of all, there's no websites in China, so you're working through these platforms. And we have a market in the US where you have a very large amount of websites in the US market, whereas in China you have zero websites. But you have all these platforms. The world's bifurcated between platforms and D2C websites.Julian:And our view at SuperOrdinary is that platform is where the markets head to. The websites are where you discover your brands, you learn more about the content, you go to Instagram, you go to Sephora. But at the end of the day, where do you gravitate to? Well, where you're buying your products, on Amazon, on Tmall, on Lazada. And this is where I think we really try to create this vision of where SuperOrdinary is headed. And it's very important that our brands believe in this strategy too, because this is the direction we think beauty is headed.Julian:In China, I think to your question collecting data, the data that we get is readily available. You can see what people's revenues are by looking at Tmall data. But I think what's interesting is that we have a lot of other platforms, like the equivalent of Reddit and Quora that allow us to see what people are asking about brands. They're looking up ingredients. They're looking up what squalane means. They're asking what hyaluronic acid does to your skin. And that kind of data there is really important.Stephanie:I mean, how would a brand even think about getting in front ... I know you're talking about platforms and different ways to think about it. So any brands here are used to paid media and email marketing and Instagram and all that, so I know you have to just completely turn off all those ideas and start from scratch. How should a brand think about entering a new market? Even trying to get their product there is one thing, but then trying to get the word out, especially if they aren't working with a firm like those. How would they even go about that?Julian:Well, I think that historically, when a brand has entered the market it had a number of choices. One is to go through a multi-brand website that sells products and posts it into China. The problem with that is that your product may or may not get to the end consumer, so there's a lot of risk. That channel is obviously a very small one.Julian:Two is to go in it alone. Go to China, hire a team, spend 10 million dollars. Really go nuts. And after five years, you'll have lots of learnings. Pretty much what I've done, and figure out oh my gosh, there must have been a better way to do this. I'm not only spending a lot of money, but I'm losing time.Julian:Really, the way we approach our playbook ... And it is a playbook, because it is after many years of learnings, is making sure that you focus on the brand and what it stands for, making sure that the messaging behind the brand is consistent. You don't want 16 different platforms saying 16 different things about your brand. And also, the other thing is there's no such thing as seeding. You can't just send out 100 packages and expect to receive 100 posts. So, it opens a pay-per-play environment. And that's because the cultures are very different, too. Understanding the culture is very important to know where is your consumer spending most of the time? I think it would shock most people that 88% of the beauty market is Gen Z and Gen Y, Millennials. And more than 50% are purchasing products on their mobile phone. And they're looking to spend more and more on skincare and color.Julian:I think understanding that just helps you frame how do you, again, those consumers. Where are they spending their time? They're spending their time on TikTok, or Douyin in China. They're spending their time on Little Red Book to discover ... And so we at SuperOrdinary have a very large team now that speaks to over 40,000 influencers or KOLs, directly or through agencies. And I think because SuperOrdinary has a very exciting portfolio of brands, we're able to authenticate the types of brands we work with. So, we're able to work with the very best livestreamers in China. We're probably one of the most active in the livestreaming area. And that creates a lot of awareness around the brand.Julian:Building a brand from zero to one is the hardest part. It's the most expensive part of the curve. And then year two, year three should be easier. Getting it right is very important, so providing a very concise go-to-market strategy, making sure that the messaging, whilst it's in local language and it feels local to the consumer, is not different to what it is in the US. We don't want to be talking about a brand and not be in line with the brand guidelines, but making sure that the emojis, the hashtags, the cute names around the products really make sense to the local consumer. There's a lot of hard work that goes in before we even launch a brand. It's not just putting it on Tmall and then putting a price, which is traditionally what a lot of the local TPs have done. We really feel like you have to take a much stronger brand view about building that channel.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, totally agree. What are some of the biggest surprises, maybe, that brands have? When you're going through and you're working with them and maybe you say, "Okay, but we need to do it this way," or, "This is what they're expecting," or, "Influencers are the way here. It's not just a nice to have like it is here. It's like, this is the way to go." What are some of the surprising things that brands maybe aren't expecting when you work with them?Julian:I think volume. Volumes can get big very, very, quickly. It's not uncommon that you will enter a livestreaming event and will do 3 million in sales in 20 seconds. The market is that much bigger. But at the same time, in the US we're used to growth, very steady, 10, 20% every year. And that's achievable. And in China, something could happen where a very big celebrity will go to London and find your product and talk about it, and then boom. It's all gone in China. You cannot find it. And it's just because the absolute size of the market is that much bigger than the US, and that when the community is all on their phones buying and following these influencers, it's very much an influencer-led market and celebrity-led market. I think that shocks a lot of brands. Why doesn't it have some steady growth?Julian:I think they also realize, the shock, the difference is that it's how text-heavy the interaction with media is. While here in the West we're very visual, in the East it's very much about information. Before you even get to the ingredients, there will probably be seven pages of text telling you about the product, the storyline. And then at the end, there will be some more information about the product itself. It's really important to realize that's how they shop. I think that's another one.Julian:I think yeah, I think also the market there moves very quickly. It's very saturated as well, because everyone sees China as almost like the Holy Grail during the COVID environment. I can't tell you the number of times people have asked me, "Oh yeah, this is a must have." Also, I think on the downside is just measuring people's expectations lower. Just because it's a big market, doesn't mean your first year you're going to do 10 million in sales. It's really about it takes time to build a brand. Five years, minimum, in the global market, so why should it be any different in China? My advice is really be patient with your brand. If you give it the love and tender, loving care over the next five years to make sure that it's there in five years. You don't want something doing this and doing this.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, that's what I was kind of thinking when you said okay, you could do 3 million in sales in a matter of seconds. How could a brand think about setting up maybe a longer-term strategy there? Because when I'm putting on my US-centric view, I'm like okay, you've got SEO stuff, you're getting to the top and you start ranking, and then people see you more because you've proved that you're best long term, and Amazon do the same thing. And there, it feels like if it's so based on maybe influencers and celebrities, because you can have these blips of when you can get in front of people. How do you maintain a brand there long term, where it's not just crazy sales and then to until you have your next celebrity or influencer talking about you again? How do you think about that?Julian:I do think that's a billion dollar question. Really believe.Stephanie:I do those in my head, billion dollar questions.Julian:Because I feel like China has gotten to a cycle or a rhythm of doing shopping festival after shopping festival, whether it's 11.11, 12.12, 618, Secretary Day. These events become so gravitational for the consumer because they know they're going to get the best offers on those days. Naturally brands, if you don't participate in them, you miss the traffic which helps get you more and more awareness.Julian:I think channel dispersion is important because you don't want to be so focused on one channel versus the other. But I think with the opening up of the market with the removal of animal testing it's going to allow us to become a much more measured approach. And what I mean by that is just imagine if you could only sell your brand through Target. And you live and die by Target's traffic. Of course you're going to play along the rules that Target might have given you to go and say, "Oh, here you go and sell that."Julian:If you can imagine that you can leave Target now and open up in all these different retailers in the US, now you have a lot more control about your brand. Just like that in China, I think we're going to have this opportunity to build brands in a much more succinct manner, and open the doors that we think best represent the brand and not have to scattergun it through all these different social channels.Julian:And also, it's fair to say that the consumer now will get to touch the brand and the product for the first time in these physical stores. And it's not just Sephora. There's seven to 10 other competitors in China which have got insane new retail experience, so I think the market there is 10 to 15 years ahead of the US in many ways. And that's another shock to most brands, is like, "Oh my God. This really, truly exists?"Stephanie:Yeah. What are some of these experiences that are so far ahead that maybe we should be looking into?Julian:Yeah. I think the consumer, when they go to a retail store in China, traditionally you go to a Sephora which is really much about it's glossy black, it's got music, you've got these beauty assistants that will come in and they would really sell you the product. China has also gone the other way, where they've removed all the beauty assistants and you go in there and it almost feels like a ghost town. But you get to try all these product and sample sizes. There are examples of that. And there's a shop called Harmay, H-A-R-M-A-Y, you can Google it, have a look. It looks like a museum. And they're 10,000 square feet, and it's very Instagram-able. That's a word. But it's one of these things that I think has really changed the way that people are interacting, because people want to drive traffic towards the door, there has to be a reason. Especially when you can buy everything online.Julian:I think that's really exciting. And I think I always get asked the question of, why is livestreaming working in China versus US?Stephanie:Yeah. That's a big one. Whenever people have come on here and talked about ... We had one guest who taught Harvard, and they brought a livestreamer from China over to show how many Harvard t-shirts they could sell, or hats or something. And it was insane. But then also it was like, I don't know if that would work here. I don't know. I just doesn't feel like a similar market around how it was happening. I don't know, it just didn't feel very familiar.Julian:Yeah. I think culturally, in the US and the West we don't like to be sold to. And that's why Instagram is very much a place where you build relationships with the other person. I think that's fundamentally where the big difference is. And remember, livestreaming in China is a business. These livestreamers are starting work at 6:00 PM and clocking off at 2:00 AM, and they do that 365 days a year because it's a business. And they have tens of people underneath them that are helping them bring in product to talk about. I think when you think about this is your starting block, and when you think about in the West, I don't think people will approach livestreaming in the same manner.Julian:I think at the end of the day, the winner in livestreaming in my view is that it will be the platform. I would make a bet that Amazon would probably be the leader eventually, because they're the ones that are going to be able to fulfill and deliver multiple brands and multiple products to the consumer in a very fast fashion. However, it's exciting to watch all these new platforms come about into the space.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any other trends that you see happening in China right now that you're like, this could work in the US? Or, this should definitely be brought back because people would love that here?Julian:I think China's done a really incredible job of cross-collaborations with really interesting partners, like very nonsensical to the West. I don't know. In the West, you'd see a clothing brand pair up with a skincare brand. But in China, they'll go KFC will do something with a perfume brand. Or, a bubble tea will work with Fenty Beauty. Really, they like to think out of the box in the market, and I think that's really exciting.Julian:I do like the idea of sampling. I think sampling is something that the US has always been involved with, these boxes that get delivered to the customer and these subscription boxes, whether it's Birchbox or BoxyCharm and all these different ones. In China, I see that there's this interest to go and try sample size products at stores. I think that could eventually translate over here, and I think that would be well received.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, I think about Costco. I wonder how much business they've lost because people like samples.Julian:They do, yeah.Stephanie:I mean, yeah. It seems like there is the stores that are okay with letting you try everything. And I know COVID mixed that up a bit and made it harder to do that, but I wonder if it will lean heavier into that because they think that's such a great way to sell. But it seems like some brands are kind of stingier, like I don't want to give this away for free. And it'd be interesting to have a case study of like well, when you get a sample, here's the ROI and the LTV just based off that one, little, teeny sample that you did give away consistently. Not just once a week when you send someone in to be an ambassador.Julian:Yeah. No, I think that's really exciting. I do love the idea that I think the US is incredible at creating these ideas. [inaudible] has done a great job and really given the consumer a more accessible way to try products. But we have to always ask ourselves the question, what's going to drive the end plus one customer to go to the next multi-brand beauty store? And I don't know about you, but how many times do I get ... I'm buying my groceries online because I don't to go and queue up. I mean, this is the trend and it's accelerating faster and faster.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah, I agree. The one thing I'm thinking about now too is that it feels like in some ways, the US and Chinese buyers are the same, and in other ways very different. Thinking about the sale aspect where it's like, that's big in China. And actually, it's kind of like going away here. Why are we doing these Black Friday events? There's no point. And that's once difference.Stephanie:And the other one I'm thinking about is all these new D2C companies popping up where you see consumers here kind of falling in love with the brand, which is very different than maybe even five years ago. And maybe you didn't always know who the brand was behind the product. Are the buyers in China similar, or are they not really open to new brands? Or do they not really want to hear about the story? What are the differences there?Julian:I think for example when we started SuperOrdinary, we saw this opportunity to bring clean beauty into China. Which at the time, there was no social listing around clean beauty. If you checked out clean beauty packaging, clean ingredients, there was really nothing there. And that was very important. I think the US, where they're ahead of China in this respect, is the brand story, the mission behind it. What does the brand stand for? What's the why? I think those types of ideas are becoming more and more important in China. We're starting to see brands really care about the environment, the packaging, what they do. The say/do ratio, we call it. Julian:But I think one of the learnings we had, and it's why I think SuperOrdinary, we moved to the US to really build out the Amazon business. Because we saw the opportunity of what we were doing in China and reapplying that to beauty on Amazon. Everyone knows the story that there are rogue sellers on Amazon. There's plenty of opportunity. And over one third of all beauty purchases are now on Amazon. And it's like this dirty, little secret we all know. We're all purchasing our toilet paper, our mineral water on Amazon, so why don't we buy our skincare?Julian:We set up a team. We have a team just under 25 people here in the US focusing on building brands, the story, making sure their D2C websites look exactly like they do on Amazon. And it's just been really exciting, because in five years' time from now, I think if you ask yourself the question, "I want to buy a product today and I want it on my doorstep in 30 minutes, who's the player that's going to be able to do that?" And it's not your own D2C website. It's really the part that can actually have the tentacles everywhere that's going to be able to do that.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be huge. All right, well with a couple of minutes left let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I ask a question, and you have a minute or less to answer.Julian:Oh, wow.Stephanie:Are you ready, Julian?Julian:Let's go.Stephanie:All right. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Julian:I would invite Anthony Bourdain. I just think he's the coolest guy, and I really enjoyed his international aspect on traveling and eating. I love eating.Stephanie:Yeah? He'd be your perfect guy?Julian:Yeah.Stephanie:So, a show all about eating and food, then. I like that.Julian:Yeah, exactly. Definitely nothing to do with ecommerce.Stephanie:Yeah. That's good. Well, when you want to stay on top of new trends that are popping up, how do you stay on top of that? Where do you go? What are you looking at? Yeah, how do you know what's hot?Julian:I'm lucky enough to have three boys, who are 16, 14 and 12.Stephanie:Oh, so they know.Julian:Who keep me on my toes, yeah. I actually ask them, and they find everything on Twitch. I usually ask them, and then they frown at me like, "Dad, what are you doing in makeup?"Stephanie:You can ask makeup stuff on Twitch? Wow. That might be a new-Julian:Yeah, it is. It's true.Stephanie:What do they ask?Julian:Well, they just find out ... They know everything from men's grooming, and they get targeted. And it's so funny, because the young one, he said, "Dad, what's manscaping?" I'm like, "Where did you learn that from?"Stephanie:We'll talk about that later.Julian:I'm learning about new projects and new things all the time.Stephanie:Oh my gosh. That's awesome. That could be a whole, new trend there. Go on Twitch. Ask the people. They'll let you know what all the trends are.Julian:That's right.Stephanie:What was an idea that you thought was brilliant but ended up failing?Julian:Oh, I've got so many of those. I'm trying to think of the one that's the least embarrassing.Stephanie:You have embarrassing?Julian:During COVID, I was like, wow. I was thinking about everyone is staying at home. Everyone is on these Zoom class, why doesn't people create comfortable clothes? Maybe I should start a pajama company. And I quickly had a handbrake on that. So, I didn't do that. But I've also done other things. What else did I do? I invested in a pool cleaning company back in the day, and that was my first, real investment. And I had a very big learning from that because I gave them all the money upfront. And the second day, he never showed up for work. I'm like, "Huh. That was a bad trade."Stephanie:Never saw that dude again? Oh my gosh.Stephanie:All right, what's up next on your reading list?Julian:On my reading list. I guess I'm a creature of habit. I think one of the books I wish I read 20 years ago, it was available, was Ray Dalio's Principles.Stephanie:Yes. So good.Julian:I think he gives you this honest look at yourself. It's very introspective. And tells you how to build teams. I recommend everyone in the world to read that book over and over and over again.Stephanie:Yeah. He's such an interesting person. All his philosophies, and I think yeah, he came and spoke at Google when I was there. And just how he thinks about rating his employees, have you read about this?Julian:Oh yeah, of course.Stephanie:You get a rating.Julian:I know.Stephanie:And if you're this level, you actually just probably shouldn't speak up until you get to this level, but everyone gets access to everything.Julian:I know. The scorecard is like a baseball card. I mean, but it gives you a very different perspective about radical transparency. And also, teaching you how to take constructive criticism in a positive way, knowing that collectively the information in the room will allow you to make better decisions.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Love that book. Well, awesome. Well, Julian, I've loved having you on the show. If people are trying to get into China and they're looking for help, where can people find out more about you and SuperOrdinary?Julian:Yeah. We have a website, SuperOrdinary.co. Not .com. Thank you, whoever took that website away from us. We'll find you. Or, reach me on JulianReis, R-E-I-S, @SuperOrdinary.co. Really, thank you so much, Stephanie. You're wonderful. It's so nice to speak to you.Stephanie:Thanks so much. It's been awesome.

Imagine this... imagined communities! In this episode, Hannah and Marcelle talk all about the Triwizard Tournament and the Goblet of Fire's relationship to nation states and nationalism.If you've read this book and thought, "Huh... why are they all rooting for Ireland?" you may finally find yourself with some answers. And if you've just celebrated Canada Day or the Fourth of July or you're just thinking about borders and patriotism (as one does), you won't be disappointed – Hannah and Marcelle talk all about the formation of communities (imagined or not) in and outside of the Harry Potter world through a thorough overview of scholar Benedict Anderson's work and some light bullying of him as well, (of course). See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Many people shy away from things that make them uncomfortable so they sweep the issue under the rug instead of facing it head-on.  The thing is, the predicament doesn't go away. And by ignoring it, the problem can actually become bigger than it has to be. Aside from that, avoiding lingering issues forces you to miss out on the opportunity to overcome them and build confidence from the experience.  So how do you avoid taking the path of least resistance? How can you learn to embrace challenges?  I am Dr. Debi Silber and welcome to another insightful episode of A Dose of Dr. Debi.  Today, we will be tackling the mantra, “Hard Now, Easy Later,” and how you can apply this mindset to your daily life.    In This Episode  Understand the difference between “easy now, hard later,” and “hard now, easy later.”   Discover areas in life where you've applied these mantras         Find out how you can remind yourself to choose the “hard now, easy later” option     Transcription Hi there Dr. Debi here and here is another Dose of Dr. Debi as part of the From Betrayal to Breakthrough podcast. There's a saying, and I'm not kidding, it's my 30th year in business and this is a saying that I have been using for 30 years. It applies to every single topic in life, and I want to share it with you. I have a feeling if you embrace this mantra, you will see so clearly how you're showing up and more importantly, what you can do to change what isn't working for you. Ready?  Easy now, hard later. Hard now, easy later. Take your pick, it's going to be one of those two.  So here's what I mean and you can use it for anything. Let's take weight loss for example. Easy now: “there are the cookies and I want them.” Hard later: “I can't button my pants.” Or, hard now: “I really want those cookies, but I really want to feel good too.” Easy later: “Huh, look how great my clothes fit me!” You see, it works with any topic. For example: “I don't want to have that awkward conversation, so I'm just going to pretend that everything's okay,” that's easy now, hard later. Or: “Wow, this issue is still lingering” (hard now), “I don't want to have that awkward conversation but I know I need to in order to clear the air” (easy later). And then after that conversation, “Wow, with a clearer understanding, we both understand where each other is coming from!” I run The PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation) Institute, and I see it so clearly within our Institute and it shows up in so many ways. Here's the experience of easy now: “This is really uncomfortable. This is really painful. I just don't know what to do. So I'm going to use food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, or reckless behavior to numb, avoid, or distract from this pain that is so painful to feel or face.” Hard later: “It's still there. My challenge is still there. The problem is still there. I don't feel any better about my experience.” On the other hand, hard now: “This is one of the most challenging things I've ever faced. I am facing demons and slaying dragons and this is really, really hard.” And then easy later: “Wow, you know, by facing it and feeling it, I'm healing it! I'm moving through this experience, I'm seeing how strong I am. I'm seeing how capable I am. Things that used to completely derail me, no longer do. I'm becoming more confident. I'm putting boundaries in place that I never did before. And I'm seeing things so differently. And the more I extract myself from that situation, the more I remove myself from the experience, the more clearly I see it. And even though it happened to me it's not about me.”  You see, we see so many things when we do the “hard now, easy later.” But let's face it, that's uncomfortable. And so many of us don't want to be uncomfortable. So we just kind of get by, and we think: “Okay, well you know what, I'll just move through this taking the path of least resistance.” If you've noticed, it doesn't go away.  So what would it take for you to try the “hard now, easy later,” as opposed to “easy now, hard later”? Take a look at how you've handled things before. I remember a mentor saying: “How you are in one area is how you are with everything.” So, there may be many other areas of life where you chose “easy now.” And you're sitting there with the “hard later.” This becomes a habit. And, what I see so often is that this mountain gets bigger and bigger to climb because as we're avoiding these things, it's just becoming too much to take on. Then it just becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, and then the fear of it just makes it bigger than it is. It makes it bigger than it needs to be. As opposed to when we opt for the “hard now.” This may sound something like: “I don't know how I'm going to get through this thing. I'm going to go over, around, through it. But, I am getting to the other side.” And, whether that means chipping away at it ever so slowly, that's okay. As long as you do something, incrementally, every single day to move you in the direction you want to go. At least you're challenging this big obstacle that in the past may have completely derailed you.  Like I said, this could be for health, it could be for relationships, it could be for business. Any topic you choose, you can apply this. But what I see so often is, so many of us, opt for that “easy now.” And yes, it may make the moment a bit easier, but if you notice, things don't change. That issue doesn't go away, and it also erodes our confidence.  How is confidence built? It's built by having a challenge, taking it on, and then you look back and you're like: “Oh, look at me! Look what I just did!” That gives you the confidence to try something else because now you have that example of: “Wow, that was something I didn't want to do and I did it!” Whether it was having that difficult conversation, making that phone call, not having those cookies, whatever it is. When you do it, you see you've survived it, and you notice how you feel. You probably feel a little bit more confident. You feel more self-assured. You feel like: “Okay, you know what? I can do hard things. I can do challenging things. And when I do, I feel better. I feel a sense of relief.”  Typically, it's not as bad as what we perceive in our minds. Our minds can go crazy, where we build something up so much bigger than it needs to be. Have you ever experienced this? I mean something as simple as, maybe, there was a dessert and you just were imagining what it was going to taste like. You were trying so hard to control yourself. Has it ever happened to you where you go ahead and you have a taste of that dessert and it wasn't even as good as you thought? By trying it, you realize: “Wow, it's no big deal.” Well, so often that happens when we take on those challenging things. We have that conversation, we make that phone call, we don't run from that situation, but we move towards it.  Here's also where we need support and I caution you that you want support from the right type of people because the wrong type of support does more harm than good. We see this within The PBT Institute all the time. Well-meaning, or not so well-meaning, people may try to help you. But what happens is, they're coming from their own lens. They're coming from their own set of experiences. And do they have a hidden agenda why they may want or not want you to do something? That's likely. So, I always caution that when you're looking for that additional support, see where that person stands. What do they have to gain or lose by being completely objective? And that'll give you a hint for who may be a good person to reach out to when you're in need.  But most importantly, really what I wanted to cover today was: “Hard now, easy later. Easy now, hard later. Take your pick because it's going to be one of those two.” And I really invite you that as you go through your week, and as you're moving through your day, and here comes that challenge (and it will show up, it always does), what's your go-to? Is it “hard now”? Is it: “Alright, here we go,” which builds confidence and you feel more empowered, self-assured. Or is it “easy now”? With that, you say something like: “You know what, forget it.” Now, it's one thing when you're just easygoing and it doesn't matter to you, then it's like: “Oh, who cares.” For example, if a bunch of people are going out for dinner and they say: “Where do you want to go?” And you say “I don't care, it doesn't matter to me.” So that's where it's like that, whatever works for everybody else. But, when it's something important, that's when you speak up, that's when it's “hard now.” You may say something like: “Yes, this is uncomfortable (who likes confrontation?) I don't like it, but I'm going to speak up, I'm going to say what's on my mind. I'm going to have that difficult conversation because I need to set my own boundaries. I need to be true to myself.” That leads to “Easy later.” Now you feel: “Now it's clear, it's clear what my boundaries are, it's clear what I'm willing to accept and not accept.” Do you see?  So, for this week, I would say put a rubber band on your wrist and snap the band. It's not to hurt you, but to remind you when you find yourself opting for the “easy now.” I would say go for the “hard now,” which leads to the “easy later.” And I'll just give you one analogy, you know I love analogies. So, I may have shared this in the past but it's just so clear. Let's say you have a messy room, messy garage, and there it is. You just avoid it at all costs. Who wants to be in there? It's a big ol' mess and you think it's not vying for your attention. Oh, but it is. You avoid it all you can. But then, think about it. That's the “easy now.” And then there's the one day where you say: “You know what? That's it, I'm going in.” Think about what happens. You roll your sleeves up, you grab your garbage bags and you're like: “Ok, here we go.”  And actually, if you think about it, in the beginning, it's worse. It's worse because things were all over the place. You go: “I'm going to donate that, toss that, fix that.” And then you put everything back, that's left. And you stand back and look at how great it looks! You want to call everybody over and say:  “Look in my garage!” You're so proud of it. That was the “hard now” leading to the “easy later.” Think about it, you have this sense of pride and empowerment that you couldn't have had unless you dove in and did the work. Now because you dove in and did the work, you feel good, that's the “easy later.”  So again it's: “Hard now, easy later. Easy now, hard later. Take your pick. It's going to be one of those two.” And I would love to hear from you to see. Did you notice you were opting for more of the “easy now”? And has it been leaving you with “hard later”? Or, have you chosen something that could potentially be “hard now,” leading to the “easy later”? I would love to hear from you to find out how that goes for you.  If you are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review. Tell your friends, tell everybody you know, And my book: Trust Again: Overcoming Betrayal and Regaining Health, Confidence and Happiness is available if you want to give it a try. You can download your free chapter here.  Thanks so much, I'll see you next time. Bye.   Resources Mentioned PBT PodcastsPost Betrayal Syndrome Quiz PBT Institute Membership Community Trust Again: Overcoming Betrayal and Regaining Health, Confidence and HappinessTrust Again Free Gift

Bible Reading: Romans 5:8; James 2:14-18"What are you doing?" Charlie asked as he stepped up behind his mom's chair.Mom clicked on a small square on the screen, the picture in it showing a house with a chimney. "I'm proving that I'm not a robot.""What?" Charlie looked from the computer to his mom. "Who thinks you're a robot?"Mom laughed. "In order to access my bank's website, I have to prove that I'm not a robot. To do that, I have to click on all of the pictures that have chimneys in them.""I don't get it," Charlie said."I'm not a robot, right?" Mom asked, her gaze on the screen as it came up with account information."Right," Charlie said."Well, those who run this website don't know that. Since there are robotic software programs that try to access websites to steal information, they need proof that I'm human. So they show me pictures and have me click on ones that have chimneys in them. It's a test that's easy for humans to do but hard for computers." Mom pushed to her feet. "Are you ready to go help at the soup kitchen?"Charlie nodded and walked to the door. "Mom?" he asked as he stuck his feet into his shoes. "Why do we serve at the soup kitchen?"Mom thought about it. "I guess you could say that, in a way, we do it to prove we are Christians."Charlie stopped to look at her. "Huh?""The Bible talks about faith not being enough without works," his mom said. "We can only be saved by trusting in Jesus, but by showing God's love to others, we provide proof that our faith is real. When we act out of love, we show others that we are Christians.""Sometimes I get tired while working at the soup kitchen," Charlie said. "I know." His mom touched his head. "But just like clicking on all the chimneys proves that I'm not a robot, serving others shows them our faith. It shows that we are filled with love.""So that others see Jesus in us?" Charlie asked.Mom nodded. "He proved His love for us when He died for our sins."Charlie opened the door. "Let's go, then," he said. "I want to help others know Him." -Emily AckerHow About You?Do you have faith in Jesus? When you trust Him as your Savior, He forgives your sin and makes you a new person. (See "Have You Heard the Good News?" on page 102.) He fills your heart with love so others can see that He has changed you. When you serve others and treat them with kindness, your actions show that you have faith in Him. What can you do to point others to Jesus?Today's Key Verse:Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples. (NLT) (John 13:35 )Today's Key Thought:Show your faith through actions

Yesterday at the convenience store, an older gentleman tapped me on the shoulder and said he knew who I was.  While I pondered if he knew me from speaking, books, or podcasts, he informed me that he's seen my movies. HUH? He thought I was Vin Diesel and wanted an autograph.  Think about how many times in your life that people try to convince you of who YOU are.  Don't fall in that trap. In this episode, we'll discus: The reason people put you in boxes The ultimate evil of growth Removing the hats in Life How to find symmetry between passion and purpose

About NickNick Frichette is a Penetration Tester and Team Lead for State Farm. Outside of work he does vulnerability research. His current primary focus is developing techniques for AWS exploitation. Additionally he is the founder of hackingthe.cloud which is an open source encyclopedia of the attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments.Links: Hacking the Cloud: https://hackingthe.cloud/ Determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket vulnerability: https://hackingthe.cloud/aws/enumeration/account_id_from_s3_bucket/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/frichette_n Personal website:https://frichetten.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lumigo. If you've built anything from serverless, you know that if there's one thing that can be said universally about these applications, it's that it turns every outage into a murder mystery. Lumigo helps make sense of all of the various functions that wind up tying together to build applications. It offers one-click distributed tracing so you can effortlessly find and fix issues in your serverless and microservices environment. You've created more problems for yourself; make one of them go away. To learn more, visit lumigo.io.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I spend a lot of time throwing things at AWS in varying capacities. One area I don't spend a lot of time giving them grief is in the InfoSec world because as it turns out, they—and almost everyone else—doesn't have much of a sense of humor around things like security. My guest today is Nick Frechette, who's a penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. Nick, thanks for joining me.Nick: Hey, thank you for inviting me on.Corey: So, like most folks in InfoSec, you tend to have a bunch of different, I guess, titles or roles that hang on signs around someone's neck. And it all sort of distills down, on some level—in your case, at least, and please correct me if I'm wrong—to ‘cloud security researcher.' Is that roughly correct? Or am I missing something fundamental?Nick: Yeah. So, for my day job, I do penetration testing, and that kind of puts me up against a variety of things, from web applications, to client-side applications, to sometimes the cloud. In my free time, though, I like to spend a lot of time on security research, and most recently been focusing pretty heavily on AWS.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. What is a cloud security researcher? “What is it you'd say it is you do here?” For lack of a better phrasing?Nick: Well, to be honest, the phrase ‘security researcher' or ‘cloud security researcher' has been, kind of… I guess watered down in recent years; everybody likes to call themselves a researcher in some way or another. You have some folks who participate in the bug bounty programs. So, for example, GCP, and Azure have their own bug bounties. AWS does not, and too sure why. And so they want to find vulnerabilities with the intention of getting cash compensation for it.You have other folks who are interested in doing security research to try and better improve defenses and alerting and monitoring so that when the next major breach happens, they're prepared or they'll be able to stop it ahead of time. From what I do, I'm very interested in offensive security research. So, how can I as, a penetration tester, or red teamer or, I guess, an actual criminal, [laugh] how can I take advantage of AWS, or try to avoid detection from services like GuardDuty and CloudTrail?Corey: So, let's break that down a little bit further. I've heard the term of ‘red team versus blue team' used before. Red team—presumably—is the offensive security folks—and yes, some of those people are, in fact, quite offensive—and blue team is the defense side. In other words, keeping folks out. Is that a reasonable summation of the state of the world?Nick: It can be, yeah, especially when it comes to security. One of the nice parts about the whole InfoSec field—I know a lot of folks tend to kind of just say, “Oh, they're there to prevent the next breach,” but in reality, InfoSec has a ton of different niches and different job specialties. “Blue teamers,” quote-unquote, tend to be the defense side working on ensuring that we can alert and monitor potential attacks, whereas red teamers—or penetration testers—tend to be the folks who are trying to do the actual exploitation or develop techniques to do that in the future.Corey: So, you talk a bit about what you do for work, obviously, but what really drew my notice was stuff you do that isn't part of your core job, as best I understand it. You're focused on vulnerability research, specifically with a strong emphasis on cloud exploitation, as you said—AWS in particular—and you're the founder of Hacking the Cloud, which is an open-source encyclopedia of various attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments. Tell me about that.Nick: Yeah, so Hacking the Cloud came out of a frustration I had when I was first getting into AWS, that there didn't seem to be a ton of good resources for offensive security professionals to get engaged in the cloud. By comparison, if you wanted to learn about web application hacking, or attacking Active Directory, or reverse engineering, if you have a credit card, I can point you in the right direction. But there just didn't seem to be a good course or introduction to how you, as a penetration tester, should attack AWS. There's things like, you know, open S3 buckets are a nightmare, or that server-side request forgery on an EC2 instance can result in your organization being fined very, very heavily. I kind of wanted to go deeper with that.And with Hacking the Cloud, I've tried to gather a bunch of offensive security research from various blog posts and conference talks into a single location, so that both the offense side and the defense side can kind of learn from it and leverage that to either improve defenses or look for things that they can attack.Corey: It seems to me that doing things like that is not likely to wind up making a whole heck of a lot of friends over on the cloud provider side. Can you talk a little bit about how what you do is perceived by the companies you're focusing on?Nick: Yeah. So, in terms of relationship, I don't really have too much of an idea of what they think. I have done some research and written on my blog, as well as published to Hacking the Cloud, some techniques for doing things like abusing the SSM agent, as well as abusing the AWS API to enumerate permissions without logging into CloudTrail. And ironically, through the power of IP addresses, I can see when folks from the Amazon corporate IP address space look at my blog, and that's always fun, especially when there's, like, four in the course of a couple of minutes, or five or six. But I don't really know too much about what they—or how they view it, or if they think it's valuable at all. I hope they do, but really not too sure.Corey: I would imagine that they do, on some level, but I guess the big question is, you know that someone doesn't like what you're doing when they send, you know, cease and desist notices, or have the police knock on your door. I feel like at most levels, we're past that in an InfoSec level, at least I'd like to believe we are. We don't hear about that happening all too often anymore. But what's your take on it?Nick: Yeah, I definitely agree. I definitely think we are beyond that. Most companies these days know that vulnerabilities are going to happen, no matter how hard you try and how much money you spend, and so it's better to be accepting of that and open to it. And especially because the InfoSec community can be so, say, noisy at times, it's definitely worth it to pay attention, definitely be appreciative of the information that may come out. AWS is pretty awesome to work with, having disclosed to them a couple times, now.They have a safe harbor provision, which essentially says that so long as you're operating in good faith, you are allowed to do security testing. They do have some rules around that, but they are pretty clear in terms of if you were operating in good faith, you wouldn't be doing anything like that. It tends to be pretty obviously malicious things that they'll ask you to stop.Corey: So, talk to me a little bit about what you've found lately, and been public about. There have been a number of examples that have come up whenever people start googling your name or looking at things you've done. But what's happening lately? What have you found that's interesting?Nick: Yeah. So, I think most recently, the thing that's kind of gotten the most attention has been a really interesting bug I found in the AWS API. Essentially, kind of the core of it is that when you are interacting with the API, obviously that gets logged to CloudTrail, so long as it's compatible. So, if you are successful, say you want to do, like, Secrets Manager, ListSecrets, that shows up in CloudTrail. And similarly, if you do not have that permission on a role or user and you try to do it, that access denied also gets logged to CloudTrail.Something kind of interesting that I found is that by manually modifying a request, or mal-forming them, what we can do is we can modify the content-type header, and as a result when you do that—and you can provide literally gibberish. I think I have VS Code window here somewhere with a content-type of ‘meow'—when you do that, the AWS API knows the action that you're trying to call because of that messed up content type, it doesn't know exactly what you're trying to do and as a result, it doesn't get logged to CloudTrail. Now, while that may seem kind of weirdly specific and not really, like, a concern, the nice part of it though is that for some API actions—somewhere in the neighborhood of 600. I say ‘in the neighborhood of' just because it fluctuates over time—as a result of that, you can tell if you have that permission, or if you don't without that being logged to CloudTrail. And so we can do this enumeration of permissions without somebody in the defense side seeing us do it. Which is pretty awesome from a offensive security perspective.Corey: On some level, it would be easy to say, “Well, just not showing up in the logs isn't really a security problem at all.” I guess that you disagree?Nick: I do, yeah. So, let's sort of look at it from a real-world perspective. Let's say, Corey, you're tired of saving people money on their AWS bill, you'd instead maybe want to make a little money on the side and you're okay with perhaps, you know, committing some crimes to do it. Through some means you get access to a company's AWS credentials for some particular role, whether that's through remote code execution on an EC2 instance, or maybe find them in an open location like an S3 bucket or a Git repository, or maybe you phish a developer, through some means, you have an access key and a secret access key. The new problem that you have is that you don't know what those credentials are associated with, or what permissions they have.They could be the root account keys, or they could be literally locked down to a single S3 bucket to read from. It all just kind of depends. Now, historically, your options for figuring that out are kind of limited. Your best bet would be to brute-force the AWS API using a tool like Pacu, or my personal favorite, which is enumerate-iam by Andres Riancho. And what that does is it just tries a bunch of API calls and sees which one works and which one doesn't.And if it works, you clearly know that you have that permission. Now, the problem with that, though, is that if you were to do that, that's going to light up CloudTrail like a Christmas tree. It's going to start showing all these access denieds for these various API calls that you've tried. And obviously, any defender who's paying attention is going to look at that and go, “Okay. That's, uh, that's suspicious,” and you're going to get shut down pretty quickly.What's nice about this bug that I found is that instead of having to litter CloudTrail with all these logs, we can just do this enumeration for roughly 600-ish API actions across roughly 40 AWS services, and nobody is the wiser. You can enumerate those permissions, and if they work fantastic, and you can then use them, and if you come to find you don't have any of those 600 permissions, okay, then you can decide on where to go from there, or maybe try to risk things showing up in CloudTrail.Corey: CloudTrail is one of those services that I find incredibly useful, or at least I do in theory. In practice, it seems that things don't show up there, and you don't realize that those types of activities are not being recorded until one day there's an announcement of, “Hey, that type of activity is now recorded.” As of the time of this recording, the most recent example that in memory is data plane requests to DynamoDB. It's, “Wait a minute. You mean that wasn't being recorded previously? Huh. I guess it makes sense, but oh, dear.”And that causes a reevaluation of what's happening in the—from a security policy and posture perspective for some clients. There's also, of course, the challenge of CloudTrail logs take a significant amount of time to show up. It used to be over 20 minutes, I believe now it's closer to 15—but don't quote me on that, obviously. Run your own tests—which seems awfully slow for anything that's going to be looking at those in an automated fashion and taking a reactive or remediation approach to things that show up there. Am I missing something key?Nick: No, I think that is pretty spot on. And believe me, [laugh] I am fully aware at how long CloudTrail takes to populate, especially with doing a bunch of research on what is and what is not logged to CloudTrail. I know that there are some operations that can be logged more quickly than the 15-minute average. Off the top of my head, though, I actually don't quite remember what those are. But you're right, in general, the majority at least do take quite a while.And that's definitely time in which an adversary or someone like me, could maybe take advantage of that 15-minute window to try and brute force those permissions, see what we have access to, and then try to operate and get out with whatever goodies we've managed to steal.Corey: Let's say that you're doing the thing that you do, however that comes to be—and I am curious—actually, we'll start there. I am curious; how do you discover these things? Is it looking at what is presented and then figuring out, “Huh, how can I wind up subverting the system it's based on?” And, similar to the way that I take a look at any random AWS services and try and figure out how to use it as a database? How do you find these things?Nick: Yeah, so to be honest, it all kind of depends. Sometimes it's completely by accident. So, for example, the API bug I described about not logging to CloudTrail, I actually found that due to [laugh] copy and pasting code from AWS's website, and I didn't change the content-type header. And as a result, I happened to notice this weird behavior, and kind of took advantage of it. Other times, it's thinking a little bit about how something is implemented and the security ramifications of it.So, for example, the SSM agent—which is a phenomenal tool in order to do remote access on your EC2 instances—I was sitting there one day and just kind of thought, “Hey, how does that authenticate exactly? And what can I do with it?” Sure enough, it authenticates the exact same way that the AWS API does, that being the metadata service on the EC2 instance. And so what I figured out pretty quickly is if you can get access to an EC2 instance, even as a low-privilege user or you can do server-side request forgery to get the keys, or if you just have sufficient permissions within the account, you can potentially intercept SSM messages from, like, a session and provide your own results. And so in effect, if you've compromised an EC2 instance, and the only way, say, incident response has into that box is SSM, you can effectively lock them out of it and, kind of, do whatever you want in the meantime.Corey: That seems like it's something of a problem.Nick: It definitely can be. But it is a lot of fun to play keep-away with incident response. [laugh].Corey: I'd like to reiterate that this is all in environments you control and have permissions to be operating within. It is not recommended that people pursue things like this in other people's cloud environments without permissions. I don't want to find us sued for giving crap advice, and I don't want to find listeners getting arrested because they didn't understand the nuances of what we're talking about.Nick: Yes, absolutely. Getting legal approval is really important for any kind of penetration testing or red teaming. I know some folks sometimes might get carried away, but definitely be sure to get approval before you do any kind of testing.Corey: So, how does someone report a vulnerability to a company like AWS?Nick: So AWS, at least publicly, doesn't have any kind of bug bounty program. But what they do have is a vulnerability disclosure program. And that is essentially an email address that you can contact and send information to, and that'll act as your point of contact with AWS while they investigate the issue. And at the end of their investigation, they can report back with their findings, whether they agree with you and they are working to get that patched or fixed immediately, or if they disagree with you and think that everything is hunky-dory, or if you may be mistaken.Corey: I saw a tweet the other day that I would love to get your thoughts on, which said effectively, that if you don't have a public bug bounty program, then any way that a researcher chooses to disclose the vulnerability is definitionally responsible on their part because they don't owe you any particular duty of care. Responsible disclosure, of course, is also referred to as, “Coordinated vulnerability disclosure” because we're always trying to reinvent terminology in this space. What do you think about that? Is there a duty of care from security researchers to responsibly disclose the vulnerabilities they find, or coordinate those vulnerabilities with vendors in the absence of a public bounty program on turning those things in?Nick: Yeah, you know, I think that's a really difficult question to answer. From my own personal perspective, I always think it's best to contact the developers, or the company, or whoever maintains whatever you found a vulnerability in, give them the best shot to have it fixed or repaired. Obviously, sometimes that works great, and the company is super receptive, and they're willing to patch it immediately. And other times, they just don't respond, or sometimes they respond harshly, and so depending on the situation, it may be better for you to release it publicly with the intention that you're informing folks that this particular company or this particular project may have an issue. On the flip side, I can kind of understand—although I don't necessarily condone it—why folks pursue things like exploit brokers, for example.So, if a company doesn't have a bug bounty program, and the researcher isn't expecting any kind of, like, cash compensation, I can understand why they may spend tens of hours, maybe hundreds of hours chasing down a particularly impactful vulnerability, only to maybe write a blog post about it or get a little head pat and say, “Thanks, nice work.” And so I can see why they may pursue things like selling to an exploit broker who may pay them hefty sum, if it is a—Corey: Orders of magnitude more. It's, “Oh, good. You found a way to remotely execute code across all of EC2 in every region”—that is a hypothetical; don't email me—have a t-shirt. It seems like you could basically buy all the t-shirts for [laugh] what that is worth on the export market.Nick: Yes, absolutely. And I do know from some experience that folks will reach out to you and are interested in, particularly, some cloud exploits. Nothing, like, minor, like some of the things that I've found, but more thinking more of, like, accessing resources without anybody knowing or accessing resources cross-account; that could go for quite a hefty sum.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: It always feels squicky, on some level, to discover something like this that's kind of neat, and wind up selling it to basically some arguably terrible people. Maybe. We don't know who's buying these things from the exploit broker. Counterpoint, having reported a few security problems myself to various providers, you get an autoresponder, then you get a thank you email that goes into a bit more detail—for the well-run programs, at least—and invariably, the company's position is, is whatever you found is not as big of a deal as you think it is, and therefore they see no reason to publish it or go loud with it. Wouldn't you agree?Because, on some level, their entire position is, please don't talk about any security shortcomings that you may have discovered in our system. And I get why they don't want that going loud, but by the same token, security researchers need a reputation to continue operating on some level in the market as security researchers, especially independents, especially people who are trying to make names for themselves in the first place.Nick: Yeah.Corey: How do you resolve that dichotomy yourself?Nick: Yeah, so, from my perspective, I totally understand why a company or project wouldn't want you to publicly disclose an issue. Everybody wants to look good, and nobody wants to be called out for any kind of issue that may have been unintentionally introduced. I think the thing at the end of the day, though, from my perspective, if I, as some random guy in the middle of nowhere Illinois finds a bug, or to be frank, if anybody out there finds a vulnerability in something, then a much more sophisticated adversary is equally capable of finding such a thing. And so it's better to have these things out in the open and discussed, rather than hidden away, so that we have the best chance of anybody being able to defend against it or develop detections for it, rather than just kind of being like, “Okay, the vendor didn't like what I had to say, I guess I'll go back to doing whatever [laugh] things I normally do.”Corey: You've obviously been doing this for a while. And I'm going to guess that your entire security researcher career has not been focused on cloud environments in general and AWS in particular.Nick: Yes, I've done some other stuff in relation to abusing GitLab Runners. I also happen to find a pretty neat RCE and privilege escalation in the very popular open-source project. Pi-hole. Not sure if you have any experience with that.Corey: Oh, I run it myself all the time for various DNS blocking purposes and other sundry bits of nonsense. Oh, yes, good. But what I'm trying to establish here is that this is not just one or two companies that you've worked with. You've done this across the board, which means I can ask a question without naming and shaming anyone, even implicitly. What differentiates good vulnerability disclosure programs from terrible ones?Nick: Yeah, I think the major differentiator is the reactivity of the project, as in how quickly they respond to you. There are some programs I've worked with where you disclose something, maybe even that might be of a high severity, and you might not hear back four weeks at a time, whereas there are other programs, particularly the MSRC—which is a part of Microsoft—or with AWS's disclosure program, where within the hour, I had a receipt of, “Hey, we received this, we're looking into it.” And then within a couple hours after that, “Yep, we verified it. We see what you're seeing, and we're going to look at it right away.” I think that's definitely one of the major differentiators for programs.Corey: Are there any companies you'd like to call out in either direction—and, “No,” is a perfectly valid [laugh] answer to this one—for having excellent disclosure programs versus terrible ones?Nick: I don't know if I'd like to call anybody out negatively. But in support, I have definitely appreciated working with both AWS's and the MSRC—Microsoft's—I think both of them have done a pretty fantastic job. And they definitely know what they're doing at this point.Corey: Yeah, I must say that I primarily focus on AWS and have for a while, which should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's listened to me talk about computers for more than three and a half minutes. But my experiences with the security folks at AWS have been uniformly positive, even when I find things that they don't want me talking about, that I will be talking about regardless, they've always been extremely respectful, and I have never walked away from the conversation thinking that I was somehow cheated by the experience. In fact, a couple of years ago at the last in-person re:Invent, I got to give a talk around something I reported specifically about how AWS runs its vulnerability disclosure program with one of their security engineers, Zach Glick, and he was phenomenally transparent around how a lot of these things work, and what they care about, and how they view these things, and what their incentives are. And obviously being empathetic to people reporting things in with the understanding that there is no duty of care that when security researchers discover something, they then must immediately go and report it in return for a pat on the head and a thank you. It was really neat being able to see both sides simultaneously around a particular issue. I'd recommend it to other folks, except I don't know how you make that lightning strike twice.Nick: It's very, very wise. Yes.Corey: Thank you. I do my best. So, what's next for you? You've obviously found a number of interesting vulnerabilities around information disclosure. One of the more recent things that I found that was sort of neat as I trolled the internet—I don't believe it was yours, but there was a ability to determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket by enumerating by a binary search. Did you catch that at all?Nick: I did. That was by Ben Bridts, which is—it's pretty awesome technique, and that's been something I've been kind of interested in for a while. There is an ability to enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles inside an account, so long as the account ID. The problem, of course, is getting the account ID. So, when Ben put that out there I was super stoked about being able to leverage that now for enumeration and maybe some fun phishing tricks with that.Corey: I love the idea. I love seeing that sort of thing being conducted. And AWS's official policy as best I remember when I looked at this once, account IDs are not considered confidential. Do you agree with that?Nick: Yep. That is my understanding of how AWS views it. From my perspective, having an account ID can be beneficial. I mentioned that you can enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles with it, and that can be super useful from a phishing perspective. The average phishing email looks like, “Oh, you won an iPad,” or, “Oh, you're the 100th visitor of some website,” or something like that.But imagine getting an email that looks like it's from something like AWS developer support, or from some research program that they're doing, and they can say to you, like, “Hey, we see that you have these roles in your account with account ID such-and-such, and we know that you're using EKS, and you're using ECS,” that phishing email becomes a lot more believable when suddenly this outside party seemingly knows so much about your account. And that might be something that you would think, “Oh, well only a real AWS employee or AWS would know that.” So, from my perspective, I think it's best to try and keep your account ID secret. I actually redact it from every screenshot that I publish, or at the very least, I try to. At the same time, though, it's not the kind of thing that's going to get somebody in your account in a single step, so I can totally see why some folks aren't too concerned about it.Corey: I feel like we also got a bit of a red herring coming from AWS blog posts themselves, where they always will give screenshots explaining what they do, and redact the account ID in every case. And the reason that I was told at one point was, “Oh, we have an internal provisioning system that's different. It looks different, and I don't want to confuse people whenever I wind up doing a screenshot.” And that's great, and I appreciate that. And part of me wonders on one level how accurate is that?Because sure, I understand that you don't necessarily want to distract people with something that looks different, but then I found out that the system is called Isengard and, yeah, it's great. They've mentioned it periodically in blog posts, and talks, and the rest. And part of me now wonders, oh, wait a minute. Is it actually because they don't want to disclose the differences between those systems, or is it because they don't have license rights publicly to use the word Isengard and don't want to get sued by whoever owns the rights to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So, one wonders what the real incentives are in different cases. But I've always viewed account IDs as being the sort of thing that eh, you probably want to share them around all the time, but it also doesn't necessarily hurt.Nick: Exactly, yeah. It's not the kind of thing you want to share with the world immediately, but it doesn't really hurt in the end.Corey: There was an early time when the partner network was effectively determining tiers of partner by how much spend they influenced, and the way that you've demonstrated that was by giving account IDs for your client accounts. The only verification at the time, to my understanding was that, “Yep, that mapped to the client you said it did.” And that was it. So, I can understand back in those days not wanting to muddy those waters. But those days are also long passed.So, I get it. I'm not going to be the first person to advertise mine, but if you can discover my account ID by looking at a bucket, it doesn't really keep me up at night.So, all of those things considered, we've had a pretty wide-ranging conversation here about a variety of things. What's next? What interests you as far as where you're going to start looking and exploring—and exploiting as the case may be—various cloud services? hackthe.cloud—which there is the dot in there, which also turns it into a domain; excellent choice—is absolutely going to be a great collection for a lot of what you find and for other people to contribute and learn from one another. But where are you aimed at? What's next?Nick: Yeah, so one thing I've been really interested in has been fuzzing the AWS API. As anyone who's ever used AWS before knows, there are hundreds of services with thousands of potential API endpoints. And so from a fuzzing perspective, there is a wide variety of things for us to potentially affect or potentially find vulnerabilities in. I'm currently working on a library that will allow me to make that fuzzing a lot easier. You could use things like botocore, Boto3, like, some of the AWS SDKs.The problem though, is that those are designed for, sort of like, the happy path where you can format your request the way Amazon wants. As a security researcher or as someone doing fuzzing, I kind of want to send random gibberish sometimes, or I want to malform my requests. And so that library is still in production, but it has already resulted in a bug. While I was fuzzing part of the AWS API, I happened to notice that I broke Elastic Beanstalk—quite literally—when [laugh] when I was going through the AWS console, I got the big red error message of, “[unintelligible 00:29:35] that request parameter is null.” And I was like, “Huh. Well, why is it null?”And come to find out as a result of that, there is a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic—well, there was a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic Beanstalk, for the AWS console. Pivoting from there, the Elastic Beanstalk uses Angular 1.8.1, or at least it did when I found it. As a result of that, we can modify that HTML injection to do template injection. And for the AngularJS crowd, template injection is basically cross-site scripting [laugh] because there is no sandbox anymore, at least in that version. And so as a result of that, I was able to get cross-site scripting in the AWS console, which is pretty exciting. That doesn't tend to happen too frequently.Corey: No that is not a typical issue that winds up getting disclosed very often.Nick: Definitely, yeah. And so I was excited about it, and considering the fact that my library for fuzzing is literally, like, not even halfway done, or is barely halfway done, I'm looking forward to what other things I can find with it.Corey: I look forward to reading more. And at the time of this recording, I should point out that this has not been finalized or made public, so I'll be keeping my eyes open to see what happens with this. And hopefully, this will be old news by the time this episode drops. If not, well, [laugh] this might be an interesting episode once it goes out.Nick: Yeah. I hope they'd have it fixed by then. They haven't responded to it yet other than the, “Hi, we've received your email. Thanks for checking in.” But we'll see how that goes.Corey: Watching news as it breaks is always exciting. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, and how you go about things, where can they find you?Nick: Yeah, so you can find me at a couple different places. On Twitter I'm @frichette_n. I also write a blog where I contribute a lot of my research at frechetten.com as well as Hacking the Cloud. I contribute a lot of the AWS stuff that gets thrown on there. And it's also open-source, so if anyone else would like to contribute or share their knowledge, you're absolutely welcome to do so. Pull requests are open and excited for anyone to contribute.Corey: Excellent. And we will of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:31:42]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Nick: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me on. I had a great time.Corey: Nick Frechette, penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me why none of these things are actually vulnerabilities, but simultaneously should not be discussed in public, ever.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Huh. Seems like this one popped out of the time vortex several decades early. I guess that just happens sometimes. Looking for a discussion of Garfield number 1766 from Thursday, April 21, 1983? Presumably we'll loop back around to discuss that one in 2056. Your hosts for today's episode were Christopher Winter, Jonathan Gibson, and world-famous internet linguist Gretchen McCulloch. Are there fine Being Jim Davis-themed wares available for sale in the Pitch Drop Store? We'll never tell... Today's strip Become a Patron! Or visit these other fine internet URLs: BJD Homepage | BJD Twitter | BJD Facebook Page | Pitchdrop Network Homepage

What's a girl gotta do to get a Fun & Flouncy out at the bars on the weekend? HUH? We talk about the latest Bachelorette episode, my weekend downtown, Benny's new dog park habits and what the vet had to say about me putting Monistat in his ears. WHOOPS. The expensive lotion DUPE you NEED in your life & more!!

I don't know about you, but I was raised around competition.  Not so much from my parents, but from culture.  In school, you compete in all sorts of tasks... trying to prove how smart, how good, how talented, how athletic, how whatever you are... compared to the others. It doesn't stop there, but keeps on going.  Win or lose.  That's all that matters.  Well, winning.  That's what matters. Remember Ricky Bobby from the movie, Talladega Nights? "If you ain't first, you're last!"  In other words, you win... or you have lost. (Do remember, though, that at another point in the movie, Ricky Bobby is talking with his Dad... and gets challenged: Ricky Bobby: "Wait, Dad. Don't you remember the time you told me 'If you ain't first, you're last'?" Reese Bobby: "Huh? What are you talking about, Son?" Ricky Bobby: "That day at school." Reese Bobby: "Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth… hell you can even be fifth." Ricky Bobby: "What? I've lived my whole life by that!" There you go... a first... a quote in a Will Ferrell movie to make a point about thriving!) We grow up on that whole "win or learn" thing... which ties us tightly to our ego.  If we win, ego boost.  If we lose, ego bruise.  What will others think?? Maybe it is worth making a shift. Nelson Mandela said, "I never lose. I either win or I learn." When you don't win, you can learn! Great shift.  "Losing" is an opportunity for learning.  When you don't win, there is an opportunity for growth, for learning... for being better. But it is still bound by ego. What if it isn't even the win? But the learn? Then, we either learn... or we learn. Listen to this episode for more on winning/losing versus learning/learning. RELATED RESOURCES What I learned in Jiu Jitsu More I learned in Jiu Jitsu Even MORE I learned in Jiu Jitsu Trial-And-Error Mindset Three Growth Mindsets Showing UP Book:  Thrive Principles Book:  The Immutable Laws of Living ... And show some love with a tweet by CLICKING HERE.

How to select a wool fleece and where to purchase a wool fleece are today's topics. This might cause money to fly out of your wallet so beware! Also, some interesting pooling shows up in an FO. Show notes with photos and links, as well as a full transcript can be found in the podcast section of our shop website: TwoEwesFiberAdventures.com. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Subscribe on Android or Subscribe on Google Podcasts Marsha's Projects I have a finished project! I finished my Walk Along Tee by Ankestrick. I love it and it fits so well. I highly recommend this pattern. I had knitted halfway down the foot of my second Drops Fabel socks when I realized I had not turned the heel. So now I need to frog to the heel flap. Not happy with myself. Picked up a long dormant shawl called Simple Shawl by Jane Hunter that I started in March 2018. Using Michael CWD in the colorway San Francisco Fog. Started swatching for the pullover Atlas by Jared Flood for my brother. The yarn I'm using is Navia Tradition. It is a very wooly wool. Mark likes his sweaters to be slim fitting but I think this sweater should have some ease. Also, I'm not great at colorwork so this sweater is going to be a challenge. I'm still spinning on my green/brown merino.  Kelly's Projects I finished a Perendale braid from Sheep Spot. I spun 3-ply and used a fractal technique. I split the fiber into 3 pieces lengthwise. Spun the first one, split the second one into two and split the third one into three.  Found two more bobbins with Santa Cruz Island singles. I have some carded fiber left so I guess I should spin the rest of it onto a third bobbin and ply it off.  No knitting or crochet this week, but lots of dog training! Beary is doing great, his thyroid is stable and he's lost twenty pounds in the 8 weeks that we've had him.  Summer Spin In Topics Don't forget your tetanus shot! Selecting a fleece what to look for http://livestockconservancy.blogspot.com/2019/07/selecting-raw-fleece.html Spinner's Book of Fleece, Beth Smith The Great Fleece Makeover, Emonieiesha Hopkins, SpinOff Magazine A great article on how a fleece that is not a coated, prize-winning, spinner's fleece can still be a good experience and make good yarn.  Where to buy a raw fleece Wool/Sheep Festivals: Black Sheep Gathering: Show cancelled for 2021 but there is a list of producers selling their fleeces. Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival: Festival also cancelled this year and there is also a list of vendors selling raw fleeces Oregon Flock and Fiber 2021 in Albany, Oregon, October 23-24 Vermont Sheep and Wool Festival 2021, October 2-3 Natural Fiber Extravaganza, July 9-11, Lebanon, Tennessee Knitters Review Fiber Festival directory Check out your county fair website Shave ‘Em to Save ‘Em directory Direct from farms:  I did a quick internet search and found these Nistock Farms: Still have 2021 fleeces available. Informative website. Located in the Finger Lakes region of western New York state. Sanctuary Wool/Homestead Wool: Located in Wisconsin. Their fleeces are from rescued sheep. Also, Fibershed Directory for California For example, Red Creek Farm, Peggy Agnew emailed her for information about purchasing.  On Etsy: Lots for sale by the pound or the entire fleece Check out your local spinning guild! Sources for braids and roving--including my most recent purchases: Huckleberry Knits  Sheepspot has dyed fiber braids using less common sheep breeds.  Sincere Sheep Fiber is locally sourced (California) Valley Oak Wool Mill has roving. Show Transcript Marsha 0:03 Hi, this is Marsha and this is Kelly. We are the Two Ewes of Two Ewes Fiber Adventures. Thanks for stopping by. Kelly 0:10 You'll hear about knitting, spinning, dyeing, crocheting, and just about anything else we can think of as a way to play with string. Marsha 0:17 We blog and post show notes at Two Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com Kelly 0:22 and we invite you to join our Two Ewes Fiber Adventures group on Ravelry. I'm 1hundredprojects Marsha 0:29 and I am betterinmotion. Kelly 0:31 We are both on Instagram and Ravelry. And we look forward to meeting you there. Both 0:36 Enjoy the episode. Marsha 0:42 Good morning, Kelly. Kelly 0:43 Good morning, Marsha. Marsha 0:45 Well, how are you today? Kelly 0:46 I'm doing fine. As we were talking about earlier before we started the podcast. I thought I'd have a nice quiet morning to record and apparently the city has to come inspect our roof work that we had several weeks ago now, maybe months ago. Anyway, so there may be someone on the roof outside my window looking in as we're recording. Marsha 1:10 Okay. Kelly 1:11 If I suddenly scream in surprise, that's what happened. Marsha 1:17 Well, I have lots going on too. We were a little late recording because I was on the phone with the plumbers. I'm having the plumbing redone in the basement. Well not completely redone but I had a leaky waste pipe. So I have that replaced and I'm having a new washer dryer delivered in July. And so they had to redo the plumbing for that. I'm relocating them and that's been quite an endeavor. But the big waste pipe was leaking. So I was all excited to go down there the first they came. They were here two days. And the next morning I go down there look at the floor to see, Oh, it's gonna be all nice and dry and everything. I won't have to have my five gallon bucket there anymore. And there's a cascade of water down the Kelly 2:03 No! Marsha 2:04 So I called. I thought well maybe just one of their seals didn't seal or something. Come to find out that it's actually the the four inch waste pipe that goes up. The vertical one that goes up between the two bathrooms. So I now have a hole in the wall in the main floor bathroom, and I cannot use the second floor bathroom. Which is the one I use. So they're coming Friday. This is what? Wednesday? They're coming Friday to fix the pipe in... the big four inch pipe in the bathroom wall on the main floor. Kelly 2:42 That's not too long. Marsha 2:44 No it's not too long but it is a challenge living with it. I didn't realize... okay this is gonna... This is gonna make me sound very elitist when I say this and very privileged what I'm going to say. I haven't lived in a house with one bathroom and multiple people for a long time. And so you know I I'm living with Ben. He's living with me right now. And so I have to run down in the morning. You know, I have to run down to the bathroom, but he's in there. And so what do you do? Well, Kelly 3:17 coffee can in the basement! Marsha 3:20 Worse than that! Kelly 3:22 Backyard! Marsha 3:23 Backyard! I went out in the bushes in the backyard and tried to find a place where the neighbors wouldn't see me but I thought afterwards maybe I should not have worn my bright red bathrobe! Kelly 3:35 Right exactly. Like when we used to go to hunt tests. I learned when we used to go to hunt tests that that was when I did not wear my white underwear. That's when you have your darker colored underwear so that you're not flashing white in the bushes! [laughing] Marsha 3:51 Do you remember your Civil War socks for Robert? Kelly 3:54 Yes. Marsha 3:55 Wasn't that part of the things-- they had to be a dark Kelly 3:57 yes Marsha 3:57 you didn't want to take your boots off and then be seen and shot... so anyway... Kelly 4:03 You need a camo bathrobe. [laughing] Marsha 4:05 That's probably way too much information. But anyway, I was delayed because I my point of bringing all this up as I was delayed this morning because I was on the phone with the plumber. So yeah. Anyway, Kelly 4:15 well, yes. This is the old house version of the Two Ewes Fiber Adventures. Marsha 4:21 Yes, I know. Anyway... Well, that probably was probably the whole world did not need to know that but desperate times call for desperate measures. [laughing] Kelly 4:36 Exactly. Marsha 4:37 Well, after all of that, let's get to the projects, shall we? Kelly 4:42 Yes. And you have some big news, huh? Marsha 4:45 Yes, I have big news. I finally finished the Walk Along tee! Kelly 4:48 Yay. Marsha 4:50 Yay, very excited. It fits great. And I really recommend the pattern. Now. It's true. I didn't do it exactly. Actually, I really didn't modify it that much. I just really what I did is I made the sleeves a little bit longer, not the, because the pattern is either like cap sleeves or full length sleeves. I just made the sleeves a little bit longer, but not full length. And then I just didn't add the sort of the look of having the sweater under a sweater. Marsha 5:19 Oh, yeah, Marsha 5:19 I didn't do that. But it's very nice. And I I really like it. Marsha 5:24 All right, I saw the pictures. It looks really nice, I think. Yeah, I love the color. You have to wear it. You have to now wear it to Seabrook. Marsha 5:34 Yes, I will. I'll wear it Kelly 5:35 Down to Mocrocs. Is that the the name of the town or the beach? Marsha 5:41 Well, the official town, I think Seabrook is actually in Pacific Beach is the name of the town, but the actual beach that I believe Native American name is Mocrocs. Kelly 5:53 Okay. And that's the name. I mean colorway. Yeah, that's to let everyone know why I suddenly made this divergence. Marsha 6:02 So Kelly, I just wanted to.... are you on Ravelry? Can you see my... Marsha 6:07 Oh, no, I am not. But I can get there soon. Keep talking. Marsha 6:11 Well just... I want you to take a look at my picture. And I look at it and I really love the T shirt. But it does.... We've talked about this before. I believe I have a little pooling on the left breast on this one. [laughing] Remember, I was talking about that in something else? Kelly 6:11 Yes. Marsha 6:11 So just take a look at this. Let me... nobody's commented, but I look at it. Now when I wear it, I will not see it because I will be wearing it. But when I look at the photograph,[laughing] Kelly 6:44 oh, yes, you do. [laughing] Kelly 6:54 Okay, so pooling on the left breast and peeing garden. In the same episode. [laughing] Marsha 7:01 Oh my gosh, [laughing] Kelly 7:03 we might have to have a an explicit rating. [laughing] Marsha 7:11 But wasn't there something I've ... Kelly 7:14 You have a little matching pooling going on the right hand side, too. [laughing] Marsha 7:22 I started laughing because I thought, do you remember the endless discussion about how I was blending the yarn? Kelly 7:30 All the yarn management! Marsha 7:35 So much yarn management. And I have Kelly 7:38 but it's really pretty. And I don't t hink it's a big deal. I mean, when you look at the picture of it hanging kind of flat on the on the dress form, it's different than when you actually are in it. Marsha 7:50 Yes. And I think I'll have to actually try it on and post another picture because that mannequin is not my dimensions necessarily. Oh, well, that's life. Kelly 8:05 It just goes, it just goes to show you that that sometimes all that yarn management turns out to be no different than if you had just worked from one skein? I mean, who knows? It might not be but Marsha 8:21 yeah, cuz it's, you know, it's hand dyed. Kelly 8:23 Mmm hmmm. Marsha 8:24 And you can actually, if you look at it sort of below the pooling, there's a little sort of diagonal striping going. Do you see that? Kelly 8:32 Yeah. Marsha 8:32 It's just so again, it doesn't really bother me. I just think it's... I find it kind of amusing. And I, I really don't understand how it happened because I was so careful. And I had labeled everything. And that part where it happened is I'm not doing any shaping. at that point, right, I'm just going around. And I also use that great technique that helical knitting where you... Now the helical knitting, I will say, You're... the point where you change yarns keeps moving around the sweater. So because you're in that point where you change. Yeah, Kelly 9:14 So that makes it a little different than if you had always changed in the same spot. Marsha 9:19 Yeah, and I don't know if that has something to it. Kelly 9:21 Yeah, I don't know. The people who do planned pooling might be able to tell you more about that. But I've never done it. Marsha 9:27 Planned pooling? Kelly 9:27 Yeah, there's I mean, there's patterns for that where you... remember we saw at Stitches Marsha 9:31 Your, your sock? Well, yes. And then your socks. You did the Kelly 9:35 Oh, right. For Dennis, the Bengal socks? Marsha 9:39 Yeah. Kelly 9:40 Yes. Now those were a little different because it was planned pooling but then you also did short rows to turn around and go back the other way to make this to make the point at the end of the stripe, like so where the where you you know, because the tiger stripes have don't go all the way around the tiger. You know what I mean? So anyway, yeah, very interesting. And I think your sweater, your your tee, looks really nice. Your sweater turned out really good. All laughing aside. Marsha 10:15 Oh gosh. Okay, and then um, so I'm still spinning on the green and brown Merino. I've just been working on the brown. Then what else? Oh, I started knitting Well, I've been continuing to knit on the...my Drops Fabel socks. But the other night I finished the Tee shirt and so I thought Okay, I'll go pick up my socks and start knitting on them. I thought... I went to measure them against the... I'm halfway down the foot of the second sock. And I went to measure it against the first sock to see how much further I had to go. And I thought that's weird. Like the heel looks different. And then I realized I didn't I did not turn the heel. Kelly 10:57 Oh, no! I've done that before. Marsha 11:02 And it's like, What is wrong with me? Like I like how did I not do that? I that's so weird. And I what's also really weird about it is I remember my when I did the gusset. My numbers were way off. Anyway, I should have known. So now I have to rip back. Kelly 11:21 Oh, well. Marsha 11:22 Yeah, that's something to keep me busy. You know, start again. It'll keep me off the streets, you know, out of bars. And then I... Oh, I forgot to put this in the show notes, Kelly. But what I'm knitting on right now is... I had to look it up. I cast this on probably two years ago. It's a shawl. It's just called Simple Shawl. Oh, yeah. It's from hedgerow yarns. This was yarn that I bought down in San Francisco. Kelly 11:50 And I'm looking at it right now. That's pretty Marsha 11:52 Yeah, it's a... Kelly 11:53 Kind of denim looking. Marsha 11:55 Yeah. And it's... I bought this at Atelier Yarns in San Francisco. Actually, I bought it in 2017. And I think that was the time when I met you for Stitches West. And then I went into San Francisco, right. And just went to some of the yarn shops and I think that's when I bought that. Anyway, the colorway is called San Francisco Fog. That's why I love the colorway. And it was hand dyed. And it just says on the label Michael's CWD so I don't know anything about them. He's not you know, in that there's really no information about that company but anyway, it's very nice. It's kind of like denim, it has... okay, it reminds me of dirty jeans. You know, muddy jeans because it has that denim blue, but it also has some brown. Yeah, kind of a cocoa brown in there. Like you have mud on your jeans. Kelly 12:49 Yeah. And it's pretty I like it. It's a pretty color. Marsha 12:52 it's really nice. And it's kind of... what I think is kind of nice about it is it's it's quite a kind of a neutral yarn, where a lot of the shawls I make have lots of color in them. Yeah, this one's kind of neutral, which I think will be a nice. Kelly 13:07 Yes. Marsha 13:08 Let's see, when did I cast this on? Oh, I cast on in 2018. Kelly 13:14 Yeah, well, it'll be nice. Your your point about it being a neutral is, is a good one because I have a shawl that I made... Oh, man, way back when I started-- first started to spin. And I didn't even really know how to make a shawl. I mean, I didn't have a pattern. I started at the bottom and then I just made increases on the sides. Like I was doing... I had a dish cloth pattern that did that. And I thought oh, I could do this for a shawl. So I did. So it's with my handspun but it's like three different colors of blue. That kind of blue gray, Blue, a blue gray, and then a more tealy kind of a blue. Anyway, it turned out really good. And I use that all the time. That shawl. I mean it just it's just a good color with almost anything I'm wearing. I can grab it. Yeah, I think you'll be really happy with it once it's done. Marsha 14:04 Yeah. Yeah. Kelly 14:06 It's probably happy to be out of the knitting bag! Marsha 14:09 I know. Well, it's been... you know, it's funny, because it's been to Scotland. And it's been... I took it to Iceland. Kelly 14:15 Oh, it's kind of like the Pismo Beach socks. Yes, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to bring it with you now everywhere you go. Marsha 14:22 Yeah. And then I started swatching for another project. And it's the Atlas pullover by Jared flood. And this is for my brother. Do you remember when you were up here? I think for the dye workshop that we did. And we went over with our friend Janis over to Tolt and Mark was our driver. And he bought this yarn for me to make a sweater. And so it's Navia Traditions. Kelly 14:51 Yeah, that's gonna be a really pretty sweater. Color work yoke. Marsha 14:55 Yes. And so he he likes color. So I think a lot of people would have reversed these colors, but he's using a really bright kind of grass Kelly green for the body. And then the color work there's the color work is in that grass green. And then two other colors. In his case he picked navy and a kind of a bright blue light, like robin's egg blue. And so I did the swatch I not really proficient color work. So I'm going to need a little help on this. I think I'll be asking questions probably. You are great though. Because I called you other night when I was doing the swatch because they said obviously you want to do the swatch in the stockinette, which is the main body of the sweater. And then it's a color work yoke. And then you want to do a swatch in the color work, which I did. But I was swatching, you know, color work knit side and then purling back color work. And I said... my comment to you was isn't my my gauge going to be off? Because the whole... when I do the sweater, the color work is all done in the round. In stockinette. So all on the knit side. And so you said what a lot of people do is you knit on the right side, then slide your swatch to the other side and leave a huge long loop in the back and pick up the yarn and knit again. Yeah, so that's what I did. And it worked out a lot better. I do think-- I think doing color work in a swatch is going to be very different than doing the actual sweater. It was very slippery. Because I you know, it's I mean, I made a pretty sizable swatch, but it's still not like having all of that weight of the sweater and all those stitches, you know, to get any kind of rhythm. Yeah, so but it looks pretty good. And I think this is a very well written pattern. And I-- and also when you get to the part where you're doing the color work, it tells you of the three colors that you're using, which one is supposed to be the dominant color. I'm assuming, and listeners can give me some feedback, that I'm assuming that the dominant color is the one that you're going if you are throwing the dominant colors in your right hand. I'm assuming Kelly 17:21 Yeah, I don't know. Marsha 17:23 I have to read up on that. Or as I say if anybody wants to weigh in on it. The other thing about this sweater, too, is Kelly you and I talked about this. That Mark likes his sweaters to be very slim fitting. He's slim and he likes slim fitting sweaters. I think because this wool is it's worsted weight and it's it's a very woolly wool. The kind I think you probably want to wear over a flannel shirt. Yeah, I think he's gonna want more ease in it then he thinks he wants because it does... what does say the pattern say? Three to five inches of positive ease and I think he's gonna want that. So we're having some...we're in discussion right now. Marsha 18:09 And then and I'll talk more about this too when I start doing it but I think Jared Flood is also the designer of the other sweater that I made for Mark which I am now drawing a blank on it. What was that that blue one I made for him? Oh, here it is Cobblestone. The sweater is designed that you you you do a tubular cast on at the bottom of the sweater, do the ribbing and knit up to the armholes. Put the body aside, do the same thing with the sleeves and attach them and then do the yoke. But I found I did not do that with cobblestone. What I did is I provisional cast on for the body, knit up to the armholes, provisional cast on for the sleeves, did stockinette up to the armhole, attach the sleeves, did the yoke and then I went back and I actually had to knit some stockinette down before I did the ribbing to get the correct length. And because what I find interesting about this method that the pattern says is how do you know where the armhole is going to fit? Is it gonna be you know, an inch from the armpit or two inches from the armpit? So and that makes a difference on how long the sleeve is going to be? Right, depending on where the armhole hits on your body. So I don't... I can't really wrap my head around doing that method. I think. So. I'm going to do this method. Kelly 19:34 Yeah, I think worked with the other. I think it's a good idea that you had when you did that last sweater. Mm hmm. Marsha 19:41 So anyway, that's what I'm going to do on that one. And then that's it for me for projects. Kelly 19:46 All right. Well, you have more than I do. I did spin a four ounce braid, which was good. I had done a little bit of spinning for the last episode with that Santa Cruz Island which I need to talk about a little bit more, but I had a Perendale braid and Perendale is kind of a medium, I would say a medium to long wool. A little more woolly than Corriedale, which I consider to be usually like a medium. Or a little less against the skin than a Corriedale. I probably wouldn't make a hat out of this. But it's... but it's not. It's not as coarse as I thought it was going to be just based on what I had read about Perendale. And when I got this braid from Sheep Spot, and she has a lot of interesting breeds to select from. And I bought this last year, I think I bought it when I was buying prizes for the for the spin in and I bought it for myself. But anyways, blue and yellow. And then of course green where the blending happened in the braid, and I decided to do it as a fractal. It's a three ply fractal spin. So just to describe what that is, the way I got ready to spin this... For those of you who don't know, I divided the braid into three parts, because I was going to make a three ply. So vertically stripped it into three parts, vertically. And then one part I just spun it straight from the from the start to the finish, you know, I didn't do anything different, I just spun that. And so that gave me relatively long color repeats. My sections of color were were pretty long. And then the second bobbin, I took one of those strips that I had stripped out and I had weighed them and they were all roughly the same weight, I had to make a little bit of an adjustment as I was pulling it apart to make sure that I got this, you know, equal, kind of equal sizes. The second one I then split into, I split that one into two pieces vertically. So I had thinner strips, and I spun. And so I spun those. And I spun, you know, the first one end to end and then got the second one end to end. And I kept track of what order, you know, what was the start of it, and what was the end of it? Marsha 22:15 Right. Kelly 22:15 And so my color repeats are less, right? They're smaller. Because the fiber was... the piece of fiber that I was spinning from was was more slender. And then the third bobbin, I did exactly the same thing. But this time I did it in three, three parts. Yeah, three parts. And so it was 1/3 of the braid, split lengthwise, and then I took that 1/3 and I divided it again into three parts. Marsha 22:47 Okay, Kelly 22:48 And spun that. So now my color repeats are even smaller. So I've got one bobbin with longer color repeats, one bobbin with a little bit shorter color repeats, and then one bobbin with even shorter color repeats and I a plied those together. And that's what they call fractal spinning. I'm really pleased with the skein. I'm not sure it looks any different than if I just like, spun randomly, and then plied it together. But when it's stripes up, when you when you knit it up, it does have a different... I've seen in a couple of books or articles about fractal spinning compared to other ways of managing the color in your braid. It does look a little bit different when you knit it up. So it will be a little bit stripy, when I knit it up, but pretty blended. I mean, there's a couple of sections that are all blue and a couple of sections that are all yellow, and mostly it comes out... it reads green even though the the braid by itself just looking at it was more blue. This this yarn actually reads more green when you look at it, but it came out really nicely. And I plied it kind of loosely. I didn't i didn't ply too tight. Like I usually try... I usually like to ply tightly. But since Perendale is kind of a longer staple, I thought, Well I'm gonna ply it more like a longwool without so much twist in it. So that's what I did. I'm really happy with it. So that was kind of a fun experiment. And then I took what was left I'm not sure I'm gonna have enough to really be able to tell... but I took what was left over after the first bobbin ran out. And then I just plied a two ply because I want to do a little swatch of each and compare the two ply fractal to the three ply fractal spin. But I am going to do a little swatch of both of these so that people can see the difference and I can see the difference between a two ply fractal and a three ply fractal. The one thing that you will definitely be able to tell is there's not as much color variation in the two ply. Partly because it was only two bobbins worth of color playing together. Marsha 25:04 Right. Kelly 25:04 And partly because there was only a very little left on the bobbin. So you know, it didn't really have enough yarn to get all the way through all the different colors. But anyway, it'll be an interesting little experiment to make a swatch with both of those and compare them side by side. Yeah, so that was my spinning. Going back to the Santa Cruz Island, fleece. I was so excited because I had emptied bobbins of the Santa Cruz Island. And it's like, okay, I can call that finished, you know, even though I still have some fleece left, but it's like, okay, I can call that spinning project finished, right? Marsha 25:42 Yeah, Kelly 25:43 I was looking around in my stash for what else I had that I could just do a quick little spin with. And I found two about third full bobbins of Santa Cruz Island singles. Two, not three, two. And it's... I want to make, you know, to match the yarn I already had, I wanted to make it... I would make a three ply. Not that I really need any more of that. I was gonna make socks with it. And I have plenty for a pair of socks, but just kind of like Oh, no. So now, I do have some more fiber that's already carded. I did find that too, when I was digging around. So I will spin the yarn that I have, or the the fiber that I have that's already carded, and spin the third bobbin. And I just want to be done with this project. But you know, the little bits that I didn't want to throw away on those other two bobbins are insignificant compared to the mountain that's on these two bobbins Marsha 26:49 right, right Kelly 26:50 In comparison. I could have easily thrown that away. But anyway, I I now have another Santa Cruz Island job to do. So. I will do that. I like that fleece. It's really fine. It'sjust, it's tricky to spin. I mean, I have to do... I talked last time how I really am doing kind of an inch worming technique. And then I had to stop and pull out little neps of tangled fiber every so often. So it's not it's not exactly rhythmic Zen spinning. Marsha 27:26 Yeah. Kelly 27:27 So I did no knitting and crocheting. In my... since the last time we talked, I mean, I didn't even do any. I finished the last dish cloth. And I didn't even... I didn't even get any more on those. So that's kind of strange, but I've been doing a lot of dog training. Nothing formal, and not any real formal stuff, but you know, walks and, and trying to keep them from fence fighting. And so Beary's here sort of crunched into the corner where I'm recording right now. So you know where I am Marsha in the dressing room. Right? Well, he could be lengthwise and have plenty of room. But he's crosswise. So his head is jammed up against the cabinet. And his rear end is jammed up against the closet. The size of him is you know, the whole width of this little dressing room area. So, but he's, he's snoring. So he's happy. He doesn't mind being crunched in the corner here. Marsha 28:40 Well, and he can probably curl up into a tighter ball now because he's lost so much weight. Kelly 28:44 Yes, yes. He had a vet appointment last week. And so we got to, you know, get him weighed and get his result of his thyroid test and all that. He had a new thyroid test. But yes, he lost. He's now 113 pounds. Marsha 29:00 Wow. So that's amazing. Kelly 29:03 Yeah. Yeah. So just just to kind of recap for people. When he got to the ASPCA in January, he was 163 pounds. When we brought him home, he was 133 pounds. And now he's 113 pounds. In like ...it was about seven weeks, seven and a half weeks that he lost the 20 pounds. Marsha 29:27 Wait a minute, I say 50 pounds. Yeah, he's lost 50 pounds. Kelly 29:31 Yeah, he's lost 50 pounds. So he's got another probably 10 to go maybe. Maybe? I don't know. At first I thought he would... He was you know, he was shepherd and just heavy and needed... He could be probably 90 pounds would be his his final weight. But he may be crossed. Well, we talked about that. Marsha 29:54 Yeah, he's big, big boned. You know Kelly 29:58 He's got something in him that makes him bigger so it may be that he only has another 10 or so pounds to go so we'll see. But But yeah, the vet was really happy and his thyroid is stable. It's good, it's all in in the good ranges and the vet said keep doing what you're doing which is a lot of exercise and training and organized, you know, chewing activity like the frozen Kongs filled with dog food mush, doggy milkshake. Marsha 30:36 Did you like my comment? You posted that on Instagram. And it was like everyone thought Oh, it looks like milkshake. Yeah, but knowing what's in it, I think it looks disgusting. But the dogs love it. Kelly 30:48 Yeah, it is. It is pretty disgusting. I have some turkey fat from Aunt Betty made a turkey. Like a turkey breast roast last night for dinner. So I have some turkey pan drippings that are gonna go in the next version, the next round of the of the frozen Kongs, and it's funny because you know, I had to I wanted that magic bullet so that I could, you know, make smoothies and stuff. And I got it one year for Christmas. And I did use it for the first year. But, you know, before we got Bailey, it hadn't been out of the cupboard for months and months and months. And now that's what I use it for. Making dog milkshakes to pour into the Kongs to put in the freezer. So anyway, yeah, the dogs are getting healthy. I don't know about me, I'm not having my kale smoothies anymore. [laughing] Marsha 31:44 That's really good news. Kelly 31:45 Yeah, yeah, Marsha 31:46 It really is good news. Because he's just... I'm sure he feels so much better and you know he can move so much better. Kelly 31:55 He had the the senior dog blood panel because we know they told us he was eight at the ASPCA. But I have never had an eight year old dog acting this lively. And I'm pretty sure he's not eight. I mean, just watching him with Bailey and the, the constant playing that they do and all his I mean, just the things that he's doing now it's like, Okay, this dog is not eight, I just can't believe it. And his teeth. I mean, you can't always tell by their teeth. You know, we had one dog whose teeth were good for her whole life. And then the other dogs, you know, their teeth got bad right away. So you can't really tell. But his teeth are good. And his his energy level is high. So I just think he's not eight. But there's no way to know except, Marsha 32:48 yeah, Kelly 32:48 how long he lives, you know? Yeah, if he lives another 10 years, then he's definitely not eight. Marsha 32:54 Yes. Yeah. Kelly 32:55 But we won't know that. Yeah, so huh. So anyway, yeah, Beary's doing great. He starts obedience class at the SPCA on Saturday. And I got an email with homework that was like 10 videos. I was like, Oh, my God, I have to watch 10 videos, because I am not a video learning person. But I did. I watched them. They were all really short. But they were good. So I have homework before we go to our class. So he's supposed to be doing his name. And, you know, responding to his name and a couple of other things that I need to do. I have been working on down with him, but he doesn't like to lay down. I mean, he lays down fine when he wants it. Marsha 33:42 Yeah Really! Yeah. Kelly 33:43 But he's not he doesn't follow a treat to go down, which I've never had a dog that wouldn't do that. Marsha 33:51 So that's interesting. Yeah. Kelly 33:53 He, he pops up. And I've tried all kinds of different ways to keep his rear end from popping up. And it doesn't seem to work. So I need some tips and tricks from the from the trainer on that when we go to class, maybe. I've been just waiting. Mostly just waiting until he's tired. And then I tell him to sit and then I just stand there. And then when he does finally lay down, I tell him down. He's getting there, but that's going to be a tough one. Marsha 34:22 Yeah. So anyway, he doesn't really like to be told what to do. Kelly 34:28 Right. That is true. Yeah, he's getting better. But yeah, Marsha 34:33 He didn't come that way. We know he's learning. But Kelly 34:36 yeah, yeah, he's already... he's doing some crate training now, too. He's doing great now that he can, you know, he's thin enough that he can actually turn around in the crate. He's using the Wolfhound crate, and he fits great. And he goes in there just fine and he's quiet. And he doesn't break the crate. Marsha 34:54 Yeah. Kelly 34:56 So that's a nice fresh breath of fresh air compared to Bailey. Marsha 35:00 Well, good. That's really good to hear. I mean, I think that that's just really good news that he's lost so much weight and his panels are all good. Kelly 35:06 Yeah, his health is great. Yeah, his health is doing really well. So, yeah. Well, now that we've talked about all our projects, including our plumbing and dogs and all of that kind of stuff. We have a summer spinning topic for everybody. Marsha 35:21 Yes. So we thought we would talk about the whole process of selecting a fleece and where to buy a raw fleece. And so let's just dive right in. Okay. Kelly 35:33 And before we do that though, I just want to remind people that if you are going to be working with raw fleece, you should just make sure that your tetanus shot is up to date. Marsha 35:46 Oh, that's a good idea. I wouldn't even have thought about that. Kelly 35:49 It seems like every time you have an injury of any kind that could be tetanus related they give you a tetanus shot anyway, even if you're ...even if you just had one almost But you should have had a tetanus shot, I would say, because it's easy to... it's easy to have a puncture wound, using carding equipment or wool combs or being stuck with a sticker in your fleece. It's easy for that to happen. So anyway, Marsha 36:21 that's a good idea. Yes, that's good, because I would not have thought about that. So and you probably just get that at the pharmacy. Don't you think? You can get so many vaccines now just at the pharmacy? I mean, if you can get a tetanus Kelly 36:33 maybe, Yeah, probably. Marsha 36:35 I don't know. I have to look into that. Okay, so I have about selecting a fleece. How do you start just buying a fleece? What do you look for? Kelly 36:42 Well, Marsha 36:43 Kelly, any thoughts? Kelly 36:45 I tried to buy a fleece this morning from Instagram. And I don't think I'm going to get it because there was somebody else who was interested in it before me. But so what did I look for? Well, it was Wensleydale, a Wensleydale cross, which means it was a long wool, which always attracts me seeing those long curly locks. Just gets me. So that's what I look for. It was six pounds, which is a decent size. Again, that's what I look for. I am not... I'm not wanting to buy fleece, you know, oh, I'll just take a pound of that. Or, Oh, is it three pounds fleece? Now six pounds is a good size for a fleece. It's kind of like cones of yarn, you know, big and juicy. So, so that was an attraction. And then, and then it was gray, which is also an attraction for me. So long wool, gray, six pounds. And the price was right, it was priced at $50, which is about $8 a pound. And I think that's pretty... I think that's that's excellent. And then plus shipping. So for for a long wool that's a good price.You're not going to find... you're not going to find Merino at that price. But Marsha 38:14 Right, right, Kelly 38:15 But for a long wool. So that's what I look for. I wasn't thinking of a project, I wasn't imagining what I was going to do with it. Nothing like that. It was just like, oh, pretty long, curly, good pric-- buying! Marsha 38:33 Well, I will confess, before we really get into this, I will confess that online, doing some research, I was looking at producers and Etsy and there was many that I wanted to click buy. But I had to restrain myself. And what really gets me in this is excellent marketing. And if there's any producers who listen to this, this is excellent. This is how you get people to click buy. If you have a photograph of the sheep that the fleece came from, or just the name of... just the name of the sheep makes me want to buy because there's like this... I don't know it's just sort of... it's very... it's like a story and anytime there's a story about a product I get more and more tempted to buy it. Kelly 39:26 Yeah, well it's the same as a yarn having a name like Mocrocs Beach as opposed to you know the colorway Kelly 39:36 or San Francisco Fog. I bought San Francisco Fog because I liked the name. Kelly 39:39 as opposed to color number 5973. Marsha 39:44 Or I remember at... now we're getting a little off of the topic of buying a fleece but I remember one time at stitches. I do not need another skein of hand dyed sock yarn, but I bought one because the name of it was It Was Comic Con and I Was Drunk. I had to buy it, right? So, yeah, so if there's a backstory or something it's really very appealing for me anyway, personally. But so anyway, but what I was gonna say the first thing is... I was gonna say is online, there's... The Livestock Conservancy has an article about selecting a raw fleece. And I would really recommend that, because it talks all about staple length, coated versus not coated. What else Kelly? Kelly 40:38 it talks about the health of the lock and looking at health, the strength of the lock or the health of the sheep. It talks about the different breeds. Marsha 40:49 And so I-- that's just a great source, I think just start there. You get much better information than well, we could, and concise information to what we could give in just the podcast. But I think that's excellent. And the other thing we were sort of talking too before we started recording about-- let me just back up. When I, the first time I bought a fleece, I was like, Oh, I want it. This is what I want to make out of that fleece, I'm going to buy that. I think I bought a Shetland fleece at Black Sheep gathering. And I didn't know anything. No, I take that back. It wasn't, it was I split it with a woman down there. And it was now I don't remember now I think was like a Merino Corriedale mix, I think or something. And I didn't know anything. And I just thought, Okay, I'm gonna buy this. And then this is what I'm going to make out of it. Well, I don't think that really is. ..Maybe if you're really knowledgeable, you can get to the point where you can say-- you can look at a fleece and know how it's going to spin up and know how you're going to-- what you're going to make. Yeah, but I kind of think I think as a beginner, you probably just have to buy the fleece that you will like, and after you wash and card it and spin it. It will then tell you what you should make out of it. Kelly 42:00 Yeah, that's true. Marsha 42:02 Because you may have an idea that you want to have yarn, a yarn that really blooms, but that particular fiber is not going to do that. So it doesn't mean that it's going to end up being a bad yarn. It's just a yarn that's not-- it's gonna be a beautiful yarn that's for another purpose. Kelly 42:23 Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, so my love is when I see fleeces that are silver, silver gray longwool. Marsha 42:37 Yeah, Kelly 42:37 So I that would not be a good choice if what I wanted to make was a you know, a light fluffy cardigan. You know, like my Funky Grandpa sweater. If that was what I wanted to make, that would be the wrong choice. If I'm going to buy a romney for example long wool, I might be able to make like a coat kind of sweater, cardigan. Or blanket, or you do some weaving with it, weave a blanket, but I'm not going to be able to make a light fluffy cardigan out of a romney wool. So a lot of it depends on on what it is you want to do with it. I mean, you know, my, my advice is you just spin to spin, right? And see what happens. And so my advice would be for first spinners it would be to try all the ones that you just you look at it and you love it. Yeah, if it sings to you, and you go, Oh, my God this is so gorgeous. Get it! You know, if the price is right, and you're up for the adventure, I would say just go ahead and get it. And then you'll see what what the yarn is that it makes. And you don't have to spin the whole thing. You can, you know, and you don't have to buy the whole thing. Sometimes you can split fleeces with somebody. Or you can, I know on Etsy you can buy... sometimes people are selling them by the pound and so you can buy just a pound of a particular kind of fleece. So Marsha 44:08 If you do buy a whole fleece though, I think there's a couple things to sort of keep in mind. Find out if it's been skirted. And that's when they remove all of the wool that's not really usable and the tags which is manure. And you can buy a fleece that has all of that, but just know that you're paying. You're gonna be throwing away a lot that you're paying for. Kelly 44:29 Right right. Yeah, so if you're searching on Etsy, I would say one of the things to put in your search is spinning or hand spinning. Just to make sure that you know you're going to... you're going to get something that people are at least calling a hand spinners fleece. Although we will talk later, I found a great article on those bargain fleeces or free fleeces and how do you, you know, make sure that you can use a fleece like that. So, yeah. Marsha 45:03 And then the other thing and I, I've never had this experience, but they talked about it when we went to the Black Sheep Gathering. Well what they had said and people who were there, the general consensus is if, if you're buying a fleece that's been part of a show, you're going to get a good fleece. Just because people have carefully prepped them for showing Kelly 45:27 And spent money to put them in the show. Marsha 45:30 Right? Yes, there's an investment to show them. And so you really couldn't go wrong buying any of those. We did have though, do you remember the one judging where the fleece had an odor to it, like a sour odor or something? And they said that it was, I don't know, I don't remember now what was wrong with it. But I guess what the general... what I would take away from that is smell the fleece. If it just doesn't smell like that delicious, wonderful... which we like. Some people hate but we like that lanolin woolly smell. Then avoid that one. If it has any kind of weird sour or off putting odor that doesn't smell right. Kelly 46:15 A dirty dish cloth. Marsha 46:16 And so anyway, I was gonna say that the... I think that the Livestock Conservancy website is really good. And we'll have the link in the show notes. Yeah. And also the spinners book of fleece by Beth Smith is really good. Kelly 46:27 And that can help with you know, like, what kinds of fleeces will do what kinds of thing. What breeds will do what kinds of things, you know. Is it a medium, fleece? Would it make that fluffy cardigan? Is it better for outerwear? Will it be just good for rugs and blankets? It will give you a good idea of of that. Yeah, the other thing to think about too, is what kind of preparation you're going to work on. What kind of ability do you have to wash it. So like, if you're gonna buy... If you don't have a good capacity to wash a fleece and you're gonna have to wash it, you know, little by little, and you're not sure how it's going to work, you might not want to buy a Merino--a really greasy fleece like a Merino. You might, or you might want to, if you do buy a fleece like that, you might want to have someone else do it, have it processed. Marsha 46:45 Yeah, Kelly 47:21 Or even just washed by a processor. I mean, that's a possibility. That you can have a processor just wash your fleece and send it back to you clean. Just because that that does take a lot of water, a lot of soap, a lot of time to get all that grease out of the fleece. And so depending on what your washing situation is, you might be better off having a fleece that's not quite as greasy. So the article that I did find about the kind of fleece that I've always liked, the bargain fleece, is called The Great Fleece Makeover. And it's by Emmioneisha Hopkins in Spin Off magazine. And she talks about three different fleeces that she had and, and they were, you know, dirty in different ways. They were flawed in different ways. And yet she was still able to make beautiful yarn out of them. Time, you know, there's a time investment to that. If you have, you know, flaws. So for a lot of people any kind of veg matter in their fleece: stickers, hay, anything like that is just a no go. And I've never been like that. That has never been something that I totally just you know been put off by and I think partly because when I started spinning, coated fleeces were very rare. And so you know, you always had some of that in your fleeces, but now with coated fleeces, you can get, you know really pristine fleeces without any of these problems. But you pay the price, right? So if you get a free fleece or you have the opportunity to get some fleece for a very good price, I would really recommend this article The Great Fleece Makeover. So you can see, you know, what kind of things does she look at? And what kind of things does she do? Wool combs are what she uses, because they take out a lot of the garbage you know, the short cuts of wool, the really short pieces, you know. If the shearing is inconsistent, they take out a lot of the vegetable matter if there's a lot of that, and they make a really nice preparation. So wool combs are a really good thing to have if you're interested in working with the bargain fleeces. A carder also gets out a lot of the stuff that's in it. A drum carder, or hand cards, but not as much as combs do. So anyway, that's a good article that I would recommend to people looking for a fleece. But there is just something about walking around a fleece fiber festival looking at all the fleeces and just falling in love with one. And and if, if that doesn't happen to you, then maybe you're just not a spinner for fleeces, for raw fleeces, right? If you can walk through a fiber festival and you don't feel pulled... drawn to fork over money for at least you know, three or four of them and have to rein yourself in, then, you know, maybe braids are your are your jam. And that's okay. You know, yeah, processed fiber might just be what you are in love with. Marsha 50:41 Well, and the thing about the processed fiber you said about time and like, you can just start right away. I like that. And that's nice. Like I've used... it's all been, you know, the commercially processed roving that I've used for the combo spins. Kelly 50:51 Yeah, Yeah, I'm in a really bad place right now because this Perendale was my last... was my last dyed braid. I have a couple of braids of Coopworth that are natural color. And that's it. So you know, I don't have anything that I could just grab. Which is kind of on purpose because I have a lot of stuff that I need to process. [laughing] So how do you buy one? If you are going to fall in love? If you think you might fall in love, where would you find those fleeces? Marsha 51:34 Well, so the first place I know where I bought all of mine was going to some sort of festival. So now, the pandemic has, has changed all of this because a lot of these festivals are not happening. So Black Sheep Gathering is always in June. That's also been cancelled. But a lot of them have online sales. Kelly 52:01 yes. Marsha 52:01 Or a list of the producers and you can contact the different producers. So we have links to the Black Sheep Gathering in the show notes. There's the Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival. Kelly, you added the Ore`gon Flock and Fiber in October is that on? Kelly 52:16 Yeah, in October, it's on. And they moved it to Albany so it's in the same location where Black Sheep Gathering was the last time we were there. Marsha 52:26 Oh, Kelly! Kelly 52:27 I know. Marsha 52:29 Maybe! Kelly 52:29 It's a possibility. Marsha 52:33 Oh, but school's in session ... Oh, no, but you're Kelly 52:35 Yeah, but I'm online. Marsha 52:37 Ah. Oh Kelly! Kelly 52:38 So I yeah, there's, there's a possibility. Yeah. Marsha 52:45 Okay. Kelly 52:48 Vermont Sheep and Sool festival is also happening in October, according to their website. They have dates in early October. So and then I found another one that's actually happening coming up fairly soon. That's the Natural Fiber Extravaganza in Lebanon, Tennessee. And it's July 9 through 11th. It's a mostly alpaca. It's put on by an alpaca association. But that looked, that looked interesting if you're in that part of the country. And then I also found Knitters Review has a fiber festival directory. Now I put the link to that in the show notes as well. A lot of them when you go to the website you see the 2020 information and you see "cancelled" but if you're willing to like search out your area. If you're looking for a particular area you can in a particular month you can narrow it down pretty well to just look at the ones that are, you know, pertinent to you and see if they have them. And then our county fair last year I kind of spaced and didn't even think about it but the Monterey County Fair last year they had their wool show, their wool auction, they just had it online. Marsha 54:04 Oh yeah? Kelly 54:06 So and then you had either pickup or shipping of the fleece that you had bought. I didn't even know about it until after it was already done. It was already done is when I realized. Marsha 54:20 Yeah, and I know the Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival that one actually I think that was in May. It didn't actually happen but it was all online. But there you could check it out and see if there's still things available. And as I say, they all have vendors listed that are still selling their fleeces. Kelly 54:37 Yeah, the listing of vendors is the nice thing. Yeah, in these websites, so. So yeah, check out your county fair website. And then the other thing I just put in there, I know we've talked about the Shave 'Em to Save 'Em, and that's through the livestock Conservancy. The same website that Marsha mentioned about selecting a fleece. But they have a directory. And you can find different, you know, the rare breed fleeces there. And then also, there's the Fibershed directory. California has the Fibershed, I think Canada, Canada has a Fibershed organization. I don't know if other areas have a Fibershed organization. But if you have a Fibershed in your area, you can look at their website. And they usually will have a directory of producers of all kinds of things, not just wool. I think there's a, there's a hemp farm, and a flax farm on the Fibershed directory. And so there are some other websites, so lots of resources in this set of show notes. Marsha 55:45 So I just, I also just googled where to buy a raw fleece, you know, and the first one that came up was a farm in, it's in the Finger Lakes region of Western New York State. It's called Nistock farms. And they--you have to reserve the fleece. But they still have some available. But it was interesting. They have an interesting website just to read it too, because they they have a lot of information about processing your...washing fleeces. They also are part of the Livestock Conservancy. And they're members of the livestock Conservancy. And they talk a lot about how their... how important is to keep their their flock healthy. So they no longer take their sheep to to be judged at shows because they don't want to expose them to all the different diseases that sheep can get, apparently, and they don't bring in rams from outside the farm for breeding. They just have their own rams. And then, and now I'm getting into something I really don't know anything about. But the breeding of sheep. You can't breed them too many times because you have to bring in new Kelly 57:08 Right, genetics. Marsha 57:09 So when they do bring in a new ram, they have to be quarantined, they're tested and then they have to be quarantined for a certain merit amount of time before they enter the breeding program. Very, very interesting. I mean, if you if you want to go really deep into it, it's a very interesting website. And then the other one I found and I just think this is just sweet. And Kelly, you said we had talked about this before but the Sanctuary Wool website. They're located in Wisconsin, and their fleeces are from rescued sheep. This is the one where they have their pictures. And you know... Kelly 57:45 Which, I'm looking at them right now. Oh my gosh. Marsha 57:49 I know. Kelly 57:52 Good looking fleeces, too. I know when we first mentioned them, one of the caveats was, you know, we had not bought fleeces from them. And I don't know if they even had a website at that time or I don't think it had any pictures. So it was kind of, you know, I don't know what this will be like, but here's some information about it. But these look beautiful! East Friesian Polypay. And that's another thing! That.. so that's another thing that gets me-- a breed I haven't spun before. Yes, when I see a breed-- that's how I ended up with the Santa Cruz Island fleece. Marsha 58:31 Right. Kelly 58:31 It's rare, and I had never spun it. And it was just intriguing. And this one is also intriguing East Friesian Polypay. Marsha 58:41 Huh? What is that? I know there's Friesian horses. I think they're from Holland. Kelly 58:47 You're asking me a question I don't know the answer to. I really don't know what East Friesian sheep is. And I don't... I know Polypay is is a relatively newer breed. Anyway, one pound six ounces for $18. Wow. Add To Cart! Tthe lambs fleece, the locks average four inches long and there's very minor debris remaining to remove. So I anyway, I would say take a look at this. If you don't worry about the danger to your wallet, take a look at this website. [laughing] Marsha 59:06 Well, and there was another. I don't know if was this website or there's another website I was looking at. And what I wanted to put in the cart the name of the sheep was something like Big Gal, something like that. Anyway, but she was an older sheep and so they said as she's gotten older, more and more gray hair is in the fleece. Oh and that one I just like oh, I want it! Yeah, because of her story, she's just this old lady, you know, and I kind of wanted the old lady fleece. But anyway... Kelly 1:00:08 Sally's Fox on her Vriesis website would sometimes have her older sheep fleece. And she would describe it in such a way that just made you want to buy it. Marsha 1:00:22 Yeah, yeah. Oh my god very good marketing. Kelly 1:00:25 Yes. Marsha 1:00:26 For those of us with no self control, Kelly 1:00:29 I'm clicking closed now. I'm having self control, because I already tried to buy one this morning. I do not need any more fleece. How many do you think I have in my garage? Marsha 1:00:43 I don't know. Because I know how many I have. Kelly 1:00:45 I think I might have I think ten. Marsha 1:00:48 Oh Kelly, I think I have eight. Kelly 1:00:55 You know that True Confessions will be next next episode. [laughing] Marsha 1:00:59 Actually, I take that back. I think I have nine because I think I'm not counting the... my friend of mine in the knitting group gave me the alpaca fleece. So I don't think I'm counting that one. And that thing's a monster. It's huge. I didn't know alpaca had such big fleece but this thing seems huge. I don't know what I'm going to... I don't know but I was hoping during this our summer spinning that I would.. I obviously I can't wash and card all of it. But just some of it. Just because I've never spun alpaca. So anyway, the other place to buy, too Kelly, is... I didn't even think about this. You recommended it, Etsy. So that was another thing that I started sort of doing a deep dive into Etsy and there's tons and tons and tons of fleeces on Etsy Kelly 1:01:46 And if you know the name of the farm, that's a good way to look online. I follow some farms on Instagram. And so you know i've been, I follow them for you know, they might have lamb for sale, or they might just post nice pictures, or but some of them if you go to their website will have, you know, might have some fleeces for sale or might have processed fleece for sale. So that's another resource, too. If you're still not able to find a fleece, there's another way. Marsha 1:02:22 Anything else you want to add about where to buy a fleece? Kelly 1:02:26 Another thing to look at is fiber ills. So Valley Oak, she's the one that that posted this morning about the fleece that I almost bought. Marcaile at Valley Oak Wool Mill, but she also has roving that she sells, you know. She doesn't usually sell fleeces. She's helping someone else sell a fleece. But she does have roving. And so if you have a wool mill, that you know about, near you, or you know, that that you follow on Instagram or whatever, check out their website and see if they have their own roving for sale, and you can buy already processed fleece from them, you don't just have to buy a fleece and send it to be processed, you can just buy wool that's been been processed. So you know, your local, if you have some local mills, you can take a look and see if they have anything on their website. But then there's also those people who you know, there's a real nice thing about grabbing a braid and starting to spin. And I just my recent purchases, I mentioned Sheep Spot already. And I purchased a couple of braids of fiber the other day, which I think are going to be prizes, from Sincere Sheep. Her fiber is locally sourced. And then I also love the colors of that Huckleberry Knits has. That's up by you. Up in up in Washington, and there I mean, there are lots and lots of other people who have braids, but these are some examples of places that I've recently purchased. Marsha 1:04:10 The other thing I forgot to mention this is spinning guilds. Sometimes somebody will have something that they want to sell, or they know a producer that has too many and they're just looking for like, maybe they'll give it to you but if you pay for the shipping, right? So but that's also a resource. So I belong to the Northwest Spinners Association here in the Pacific Northwest and they have a Facebook group. And lot of times they're posting things.They post things, you know, funny articles, funny spinning cartoons and stuff, and interesting articles. Sometimes the equipment for sale, and then sometimes there's been fleeces too, that's another good source just to find, you know, they're all good sources. Kelly 1:04:58 So yeah. Yeah, we have lots of ways to make your money fly out of your wallet. . Marsha 1:05:05 Yeah, really. [laughing] Anything else on this topic, Kelly 1:05:10 I think just the main thing is that, you know, if you're interested in, in that process that you know, fleece to fiber, that whole, you know, the whole spectrum of the process, I would say it's, it's definitely worth doing once. And after you do it, you'll know what parts of the process you like, and what parts of the process you don't like. And then you can you know, you can decide. No, I'm just going to buy already processed braids of fiber, or I like washing fleece, but I have to wash it in small batches. So I'm only going to buy fleece by the pound I'm not going to buy entire fleeces. Or you could be like me, and if it's 10 pounds, that's even better. And so you really want, the bigger the fleece, the more attractive it is. Marsha 1:06:04 That is true. Like that was when we went to, I don't remember, I think it was the Monterey County Fair. And they had the auction. We got a really good deal on those. Like remember, we got a 10 pound fleece or something or a 12 pounds. I mean, it was a huge fleece that we got. And it was really quite inexpensive. And part of the reason is because it is so much for a hand spinner, right for hand spinner to go through 10 pounds Kelly 1:06:31 Really, Yeah, Marsha 1:06:32 Now granted... Oh, I one thing we didn't say is when you do buy a fleece, too, that when you wash it, you do lose. The weight will go down, right, because that weight is debris in the fleece Kelly 1:06:44 And when you card it, when you card if you do your own processing, or if you send it out to be processed, when you card it, there will also be waste. So you could lose, you know, you could lose as much as half by the time you have, or more, by the time you skirt it, wash it and process it and have it ready to ready to spin. Marsha 1:07:10 Because every time you do something to it, you lose. Right? Kelly 1:07:13 Right. So like I carded yesterday, I have an Oxford fleece that I started carding yesterday. I didn't put that in my projects. And I carded. I picked which means you pull the fiber apart. I picked and put through the drum carder what was 100 grams. So I decided I was just going to do it in 100 gram batches. So I did 100 grams. And then I put it through the carder. And when it got through the carder, it was only...When it got, you know, done being carded the first time, now it's only 95 grams. And I'm going to put that through the carder probably two more times, just to get it really nice. And by the time I do that, I'll probably be down to, you know, 75 or 80 grams. But yeah, the big fleeces are attractive to me. But they're not attractive to everyone. You know, it's helpful if you have a friend who will split it with you right, Marsha? Marsha 1:08:09 Yeah. So I'm always, I'm always willing to split. Kelly 1:08:15 So. All right, well, I think that's a, I think that's a good amount of information for someone who was interested in how to go about purchasing a fleece for the first time. And what are we going to talk about next time. Do you remember? Marsha 1:08:33 So the next episode, we're going to talk about carding of fleece, blending, prepping and process. Okay. So that's the plan. Kelly 1:08:41 All right. Marsha 1:08:43 So good. We have to do some research. Yes. Kelly 1:08:46 Well, I have one on the carder too right now. So I'll start now. I'll do my research. Partly do my research that way. Marsha 1:08:54 Okay, cool. All righty. Okay, well, with that we'll say goodbye. Kelly 1:08:58 All right. Marsha 1:08:59 We'll talk. Kelly 1:09:00 Okay. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. To subscribe to the podcast visit Two Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com. Marsha 1:09:08 Join us on our adventures on Ravelry and Instagram. I am betterinmotion and Kelly is 1hundredprojects. Kelly 1:09:16 Until next time, we're the Two Ewes doing our part for a world fleece. Transcribed by https://otter.ai