Podcasts about essential labor

Government-backed guarantees, from bailouts to bankruptcy protection, help keep the private sector in business in our nation's economic system. What if the same were true not only for businesses but for individuals as well?  In her new book The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy, Natalie Foster, co-founder and president of the Economic Security Project, invites readers to envision a future where things like housing, health care, higher education, family care, inheritance, and an income floor are not only attainable for everyone but guaranteed by our government. The book blends economics, business, public policy, and social justice and calls for a shift from unchecked capitalism to a country that serves all of its people. The Guarantee examines the changes in government guarantees over the past decade, from student debt relief to the child tax credit expansion. Foster's vision for a new American Guarantee draws from real-life experiences as well as collaborations with activists and visionaries. The Guarantee argues not only that new policies are possible, but that they are ready to implement in twenty-first-century America. Natalie Foster is a leading architect of the movement to build an inclusive and resilient economy. She is the president and co-founder of Economic Security Project and an Aspen Institute Fellow, and her work and writing have appeared in the New York Times, USA Today, Time, Business Insider, CNN, and The Guardian. Natalie speaks regularly on economic security, the future of work, and the new political economy. Natalie previously founded the sharing economy community Peers and co-founded Rebuild the Dream with Van Jones, and served as Digital Director for President Obama's Organizing for America — a leading partner in winning transformative healthcare reform. A daughter of a preacher from Kansas, Natalie draws on the values of community, dignity, and optimism to build a better America. The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy is her first book. Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Buy the Book The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy Third Place Books

This week, Lindy and Meagan go LIVE in front of an audience at Town Hall Seattle! Meagan talks about the dude she almost fought at breakfast the morning of the show. Lindy explains why she missed her family reunion in Norway - and why Meagan went without her. Then celeb guest / bestselling author / world-class gift-giver / NBA fan Angela Garbes plays a truly epic round of FMK with the nine Supreme Court justices. Check out Angela's appearance on The Daily Show With Trevor Noah, her TED Talk about what working parents really need from workplaces, and her two books: Like A Mother and Essential Labor.   TEXT ME BACK is a production of KUOW in Seattle, a proud member of the NPR Network. Our editor is Jeannie Yandel. Our senior producer is Brandi Fullwood. Our mixer is Jason Burrows.Love the show? Share it with your bestie, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts! Got a question or accolades for Lindy and Meagan? Join the TMB Text Club! Text BFF to 206-926-9955. Or email us at textmeback@kuow.org. You can also follow the podcast on Instagram and TikTok @textmebackpod. And for even more bestie connections follow Lindy and Meagan on Instagram at @thelindywest and @importantmeagan!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Colleen Reichmann - licensed clinical psychologist and eating disorder specialist with lived experience with anorexia, founder of Wildflower Therapy, and author of The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice From Two Therapists Who Have Been There. Colleen is also an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and HAES, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.In this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages. We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode. Find out more about Colleen's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Subscribe to her Substack here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full: Colleen Reichmann: But I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. I had such rage. Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period.  I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.INTROLaura Thomas: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Colleen Reichmann.Colleen is a licensed clinical psychologist practicing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She works at her group practice, Wildflower Therapy. She has lived experience with anorexia and this experience sparked her passion for spreading knowledge and awareness that recovery is possible. She is now an eating disorder specialist and has worked at various treatment facilities as well as authored a book, The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, advised from two therapists who have been there.She's an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and health at every size, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. So in this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages.We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode.We're also going to be talking about raising embodied kiddos towards the end of the episode, so you can also just skip forward and listen to that part. And Colleen shares some of her really great advice as a mother and an eating disorder specialist psychologist about how we can help protect our kids' embodiment.But before we get to Colleen, I really wanted to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year and as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter and have a say in the work that we do here as well as ensure that I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app and a deep dive on helping kids have a good relationship with sugar..  All of those articles I've already written and you can read at laurathomas.substack.com. And if you're not yet totally convinced, then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help. So this reader and listener wrote: “I want to support the work you're doing as I think it's really important and I believe that you should be paid for your work.” I agree! “I value the model of subscriber direct support rather than ad revenue. I really like all your comments and interviews on the podcast about internalised capitalism and how it affects our views of things without us even realising. Thank you for spending your valuable time and skills to do all this research and writing it up.I would love to see you talking about all of this in mainstream newspapers, TVs, magazines, and other media. It's such an important topic and I really hope you get more and more moment  for your work. Also on a personal note, you are helping me change my children's lives for the better by educating me about all of this. Really appreciate all that you're doing.” Such a kind review, thank you to the person who emailed that in, you know who you are. So yeah, it's £5 a month, or £50 for the year, and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com. Or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked, just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. All right gang, here's Colleen.MAIN EPISODE Colleen, can you start by letting everyone know a little bit about you and the work that you do?Colleen Reichmann: Sure. So my name is Dr. Colleen Reichmann, and I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and an eating disorders and body image specialist with a small group practice in Philadelphia. We see people virtually and in person, there's 5 of us, we all focus on body image and eating disorders and then sort of sub-niches within that community and and one of mine is also perinatal mental health. That's me professionally. I'm also the co-author of the book The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery and a speaker and a writer of other things, and then just a mom, somebody with lived experience of an eating disorder, as well as infertility and IVF. And I have two IVF babies, Ezra and Marigold, who live with me, and two, like, very chaotic dogs, and I live with all of them, and my partner, outside of Philadelphia.Laura Thomas: Wow, there's, yeah, loads of different parts of your identity, I suppose, that I'd love to dig into and talk to you about, but I'd love to start by talking about your journey to parenthood. You mentioned there that you had your babies through IVF and I know you talk really openly about this, uh, on your social media platforms and on your Substack. And I'd love just to help orient the listeners a little bit to some of your experiences, if you could share what that journey has been like for you. Colleen Reichmann: For some reason for me the piece about having both of my babies through IVF feels really important to share. It almost just feels like a lot of my parenthood, like my identity hinges on, it just feels so integral to who I am as a mother at this point and a parent, so I feel compelled to make it like, I have it in bios and even my partner at one point is like, why do you have like your professional psychologist and then also IVF mom?And I was like, I don't know. It just, it feels like it factors so much into the whole lens that I view perinatal mental health at this point. So I was somebody who went through about 5 years of infertility. Once you launch into the process of  digging into what's going on with infertility, there's like a cascade of interventions that happens, and mine was pretty standard,. And looking back, I just kind of, like, fell into the cascade and did what everybody said to do.I have, like, just different questions now about the process.  But essentially, I did rounds of medication, medicated cycles, and then IUI is kind of, like, the next part of the process. And we had multiple failed IUIs, which is interuterine insemination. And then when you have enough of those, you know, failures, the next step is IVF. Which I would joke with my partner and call it the…what did I call it? What's like the team, you know, in high school, there's like the…varsity! I was like, well, I'm varsity and fertility now because I'm in the IVF process. Laura Thomas: You've graduated on to the next step. Yeah, I guess that you need some sort of like levity in amongst what sounds to me to be like a, an extraordinarily heavy process otherwise..Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. I think infertility and especially, I think IVF is its own specific form of trauma, but infertility is very traumatic in my opinion. And for me, there was like this specific part of it that felt traumatic that I had this whole history of an eating disorder, like a decade long and part of the reason I had…just reasons to recover or reasons to get into a more stable place and having children was one of them.And so it felt like a slap in the face, like I did all the work that I didn't want to do for many years. And I just felt like, I was promised something by professionals, even though that's not true. Like, it was just, it was discussed a lot in sessions.Laura Thomas: No, but I am, I'm just sitting here reflecting on how many times I've…you know, I, I'm not sure that, like, leveraged that is quite the right phrase, but you know when, when people ask me about what are the long term impacts on my health of, of my eating disorder, you know, I will say fertility is, is one of the, one of those long term things.I can see how that's really a double edged sword to say something like that, because, you know, further down the line, if that person goes through the motions of recovery and does that really excruciating work, and then comes out the other side and their fertility…and, and we don't know if I'm not trying to insinuate that people's infertility is necessarily related to their eating disorder or not, but I hear what you're saying is that you were promised this prize at the end of, of eating disorder recovery and it wasn't there for you.And that in and of itself must have been so painful.Colleen Reichmann: It's so painful. There was a specific instance that stuck in my mind. When I was in, I think it was high school or maybe like early college, but really young and I was sitting with a therapist who was also trying to kind of like leverage fertility or I would say trying her best to motivate me, in a way that backfired because I was overly, I was just not in a place to be motivated at that point.But she asked like, do you want to be skinny or do you want to be able to have kids one day? And I remember like…yeah, I remember just saying “skinny”, like looking at her and, it haunted me for like all those years of infertility. I had that in my mind, that like session and that exchange and I was like, I did it.I guess I brought this on myself and I, you know, I said that and I…just like the whole thing was just very complex and painful, and it felt like, yeah, just a twisting of a knife and I… but also like I did it to myself, and it was just a really, they were like devastating years, the years of infertility.Laura Thomas: And it sounds like so much self blame there as well. It's no one's fault yet I can imagine that that adds another layer of sort of pressure and complexity and pain to the situation that was already really upsetting.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah,Laura Thomas: So how did it play out from there? What was the sort of next step, if you will, through these years of infertility?Colleen Reichmann: Well, once I started the IVF process, I ended up actually getting what's called ovarian hyper simulation syndrome. So,  I produced like a lot of eggs and then got really sick after IVF, I was actually hospitalised. I then had a lot of embryos from that, which is like, such a great thing, but also was arguably, like, a little bit aggressive, the IVF treatment that I got. But anyway, so we went through the process of several failed frozen embryo transfers and then several transfers that ended in miscarriage and then ended up at some point – after I moved to Philadelphia, because we, I was doing all this while I was living in a different state and then we moved and relocated – and I remember saying, I'll do it. I'll try one last transfer and then I think I need to either pause or just stop this for right now and find another way to pursue happiness. Like, I have to…this is consuming everything. I'm becoming like a husk of a person, like I'm just infertility. And so then that transfer ended up being my now three year old son, Ezra, but I was so burned out by that point that I, when I took the pregnancy test after I had the, like, the two week wait and everything, I left it on the bathroom sink and went to like fold laundry because I was just so sure that it wasn't going to be positive. And then I remember when I came back and saw it, I didn't…my mind after just like years and years and years of only negatives was like, I can't, it must have been a full 60 seconds where I was just like, What's this? Like, what? I could, I could not compute.And then, yeah, after I had him, I did another embryo transfer, another miscarriage, and then my now one and a half year old daughter, Marigold, came after that. Laura Thomas: Wow. There's such a lot to process in there… such a wild, wild roller coaster by the sounds of things. And I can, yeah, I can totally see why you would be in that state of disbelief and kind of not allowing yourself to really let it wash over you, that this thing that you'd longed for for such a long time was, was real.I could imagine that there was a kind of sense that it could be taken from you at, at any moment. And so allowing yourself to just get in touch with that must have been, yeah, putting yourself out there to, to let it be real. You also mentioned, in amongst your IVF journey that there were some losses, some pregnancy losses. You've written really beautifully about pregnancy loss, body image and grief, and specifically about miscarriage as a form of ambiguous loss. This is a concept that I find really helpful just in body image work, body embodiment work generally. But I wondered if for anyone who was unfamiliar with that concept, if you can share that, what that is and what that means and looks like in the context of pregnancy loss.Colleen Reichmann: So ambiguous loss…I guess the simplest definition would be loss without any real closure, loss where there's not…not that there's ever a clear cut path, but where there's a less, even less of a clear cut path than normal from loss to acceptance. And I definitely think miscarriage and pregnancy loss falls underneath that  umbrella, for sure, just because there's often loss, with no tangible evidence of ever having anything.Other things, of course, in our society fall under ambiguous loss, like loss where it somewhat, it feels like a death, but the person is still physically present, like if somebody has dementia or, if you're estranged from a family member, things like that. But with miscarriage, I think the concept of ambiguous loss also really connects with the concept of disenfranchised grief, which feels so important, to me, in the discussion of it all.Laura Thomas: I haven't heard that term before. I would love to unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Okay, so disenfranchised grief is essentially…it's grief that's not, like, publicly accepted. It's grief that's not sort of socially acknowledged and interpersonally and socially mourned. So, a lot of times, I like to call grief, like, if you lose a family member, sometimes I'll call it ‘Tupperware Grief' because people, at least at first, hopefully, like, show up with tupperware containers and dinners. Then disenfranchised grief, like that of a miscarriage is more, like, there…oftentimes there's no big show of support. Like, there are no, like, tupperware dinners or people showing up. People don't know how to talk about it even, even less than they know how to talk about just…Laura Thomas: Regular death.Colleen Reichmann: yeah, like, normal grief.And oftentimes when you have a miscarriage, there's also that added component of not having even shared, if it was an earlier miscarriage that you were pregnant. So you're going through this, like, life altering, awful grieving process alone, but you know, you haven't even shared that there's something to grieve and it's just confusing and sad and it's a really specific form of grief, I would say.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think as a collective, we do so poorly with grieving, you know, as a society, it's privatised, it needs to be neat and tidy and, for example, if somebody dies or if you have a miscarriage or, you know, there are any of these types of life events. We rarely get time off work or leave or anything to just have the space and the time to process some of what's happened to us.I think, you know…what you're saying is there's a sort of additional layer to it where if it's an invisible loss or it's…I don't know, something that, yeah, intangible, I suppose to, to other people…where does that grief belong? There's nowhere to put it really. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and so much of grieving that's helpful, like so much of what I think helps grieving people is like physicality and like the presence of others and showing up… Laura Thomas: Community, yeah.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, like, and I'm, I'm not going to take this from you, like the sadness. I'm going to sit with you in it and I don't have the right words because normally there just are no right words.So, like, let's let you feel the sadness and I'll be here next to you. And with disenfranchised grief, that's almost, like,  gone. Like, there is just none of that. Laura Thomas: Yeah. Going back to this idea of ambiguous loss, how do you think that can help us, you know, understand or process our experiences in some way? Colleen Reichmann: You know, I think even the term . Like, even when I just had that knowledge that there was a word for it, that felt so affirming. So just, even understanding, like, that's what you're going through and maybe letting that sort of propel you to reach out, if possible, to people who feel really safe, even just one or two. I can't think of anything just more important for the grieving process of pregnancy loss than some, like, I don't know, catalyst to reach out and share to people who feel safe because that was something I definitely…at least two of the miscarriages just totally had an in silent, like, didn't really share with almost anyone and then changed my process for the third and I had…I remember it was just awful like they always are, but like, I had really beautiful showings of support from friends, like, cards and…I remember one friend sent flowers and then, like, two months after sent another bouquet and was, like, still thinking of you. And I was really touched by that because I was like, oh, it's like, not only is it, would it be a grief that's, like, totally unseen, but even with normal grief, a lot of times you get, like, the initial show of support and then it phases out and this person just is, like, still here, I still love you, you know, like, I know it still hurts. And that was all because I just tried to navigate it differently and asked for help that last time.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think what…you know, what you're speaking to is this idea around grief that we have to follow a strict protocol, right? Like there's that initial period where you might be allowed to, you know, completely fall apart at the seams, but then you are expected to, you know, do that within the, I don't know, the two to three days that your boss allows you off of work and then afterwards you have to contain your grief, or at least make your grief more palatable to people. And what you're saying is that – I'm sort of reading between the lines here, but there is no timeframe for grief and when it's…when you've had a chance, well, it's never going to go away, is it, but you know, what you're saying is that, yeah, two months down the line, just having someone acknowledge that your pain is still there, that it's still valid, that it's, that someone sees you and is, is holding you. That's so powerful to have that, but in our society, yeah, like you have your allotted time frame for grieving and after that, sorry, no more flowers, no more cards. No one's going to check in on you or give you time off work. I don't know why I'm so like, hellbent on the work thing. Colleen Reichmann: It's so real though. Like, I think during one of my miscarriages, I remember there was a country that happened to grant, I think it was three days off to people who had pregnancy loss. I don't…do you know what country that is? Because I remember it was like in the whirlwind as it was all happening to me, and I was so like in a haze, but also aware of like, that's awesome.And three days, like, and I can't believe we don't even have, there's no three days here. That's for sure. But also like, yay. That's really nice. That's being acknowledged. But three days is nothing like it's an…I don't know, it was just, but the work thing. So it's so real that it's just incredibly difficult to show up to things like work when you're, like, in the haze of grief.Laura Thomas: Well, and I think it just, it speaks to how much society under capitalism dehumanizes our experiences and we are given our allotted time to grieve then you're expected to get back to work and be productive and if your grief spills over into your work, then you know, you're going to have to say something about that. I, I don't know which country it is. I know that they've had conversations about it here in the UK, about having some sort of leave for pregnancy loss and other kinds of losses, but  nothing that I know of that is formal at this point. But also again, yeah, like really a few days off work is probably not going to cut it for most people.And you know, alternatively, some people might actually find it really helpful to be at work and be around people and, and kind of taking their mind off of it. So yeah, it's not… there's no one right way to, to mourn or to grieve. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, so true.Laura Thomas: I also did an episode a little while back with Jennie Agg, who wrote a book about pregnancy loss called Life Almost, and just kind of how there are a lot of unanswered questions around pregnancy loss and infertility.And I'm going to link to that in the show notes for people who haven't heard that, because I think that's also a really helpful resource if yeah, if this is something, a conversation that you need to have more of in your life right now. I also wanted to talk to you a little bit about…I guess you called it body loathing. You talked about this sense of really loathing your body that you had in relation to miscarriage. And if it's okay with you, I'm going to read out something that you wrote as part of a Substack post and I will link to that as well. And you wrote: “The only thing that makes sense, to me at least, is to allow all of these emotions and thoughts to wash over you. Yes, this includes intense body loathing. Don't try to fight it or even shake free from it, at least at first. Honour that these feelings are because this loss, the loss that many others won't even know about is real. It's real and it's excruciating and it's evidence of love.And sometimes when grief is this big and things hurt this badly, we need a place to funnel the pain. If body loathing is the place for you in this moment, that's okay. That has to be okay.” Can you speak to why this idea of allowing body loathing is so crucial because I think it's so counter to the narrative that we are told whether that's about body image in relation to like weight and shape concerns, or, you know, where we're told like, you know that you have to come up with like positives that you like about your body or even in the context of pregnancy related body changes, pregnancy loss, we're told like, well, your body did this amazing thing even if you didn't, give birth. That, oh, well, at least you know, you can get pregnant or like, you know, there's always this like positive spin put on it and, and so it just felt really refreshing for me to, to read, like, no, you're allowed to hate your body and you're allowed to just be really angry with it, and feel let down by it and feel betrayed by it.So yeah, I just wondered if, you know, from a therapist's perspective, if you could explain why that is so powerful and crucial.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, that, that positive spin felt so offensive to me, especially through that journey in fertility and then pregnancy loss. Like and it just felt like everyone, like, and people were, of course, coming from a good place, but a lot of times it almost felt like…but you will, like, keep going, and I have so much hope for you, and, and, which is, like, maybe sometimes what I needed it, but a lot of times I was like, this is just so painful and like devastating and there's a lot of fear here that my whole life something that I've like wanted is not going to happen and I almost feels like you, you cannot tolerate sitting in it with me.And you're not the one going…like, I'm the one actually like, so if you can't tolerate even being a bystander, you know, that's so upsetting,  , and that the idea of, like, allowing yourself to just hate your body and be really mad at it, when it comes to infertility and pregnancy loss, it almost reminds me of, like, the…the chronic illness community often talks about, like, the eating disorder messaging on social media about, like, appreciating your body and loving your body and the function of it and how that feels really invalidating because, like, if my body…if I…what if I don't I appreciate it?What if I'm like, it feels like it's failing me? What if it doesn't function, “like it's supposed to”? Where do I fall in all of this? I feel like I related to that a lot during this process of like, and I'll speak for me just personally, because I also don't want to say other people feel this way, but I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. And I was just, like, I had such rage. And I was like, I just felt like it, it needed to be felt and I needed to be like, no, I don't, I don't need to connect with it right now.Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period. And if I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.I want time away. I want to, like, hate you. And I do. And that's, that is allowed, at least for me. And then, you know, some of the people that I work with, it's…there's something, like, affirming about that being just full permission, legalise hating your body.Laura Thomas: Yeah. I think, you know, we talk a lot about the concept of being sort of positively embodied and, kind of having this mind-body connection and being attuned to what's going on in our bodies. And I also think that there needs to be space for the fact that sort of disengaging or being disembodied is also protective and powerful and is a coping mechanism.And okay, maybe it's not sustainable forever, but there are times where that, where you just need to be able to check out. Just disengage and it sounds like that was part of your, your process at least, and, and it might be a helpful thing for other people to hold on to, especially in the face of like messaging around…appreciate your body and think about what it can do and, and so on.Like I can, yeah, totally see how that reads really badly when you're in something like that.Colleen Reichmann: Also, I do think some people might find that helpful for pregnancy too, so that it's helpful maybe in pregnancy loss, but also pregnancy can really just be an awful time for, like, to live in your body for some of us, so…that was another time in my life, which is interesting, because I just, there's so much devastation about the losses, but both pregnancies that were completed. I white knuckled it, is the best terminology I can use. I just, like, got through and they were just really hard experiences, probably the hardest physical experiences I've ever had in my life. Like, far beyond, you know, more challenging and uncomfortable than when I was in, like, the depths of the eating disorder.I felt like it was helpful. And I know I've heard other people say this too, to like, be allowed…which is an interesting dichotomy, because I was so grateful, like, I wanted the…I was like, everything in my life had led up to that moment, and I wanted those babies so much, and so, like, hated all of it, pregnancy was just so hard in my opinion. So allowing people to really – if they need to, be really, like, unhappy and disengaged from their body during that time, too, feels like an unpopular message, but one that I think is, like, kind of important.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it can, I mean, I know that there are additional layers if you've experienced, you know, pregnancy loss and gone through IVF because, you know, all of that trauma is stored in your body, right? And then you're adding something that is so desperately wanted and at the same time it can feel…I guess it can kind of be activating of everything, all of those other experiences that you've been through emotionally as well as the physical toll that that pregnancy and birth and, you know, everything that goes on in that sort of, especially first year or two years afterwards. It's, yeah, it's so much and…similarly to baby loss. Pregnancy loss or baby loss, we're not given space to grieve…for the grief that I think is an inherent part of pregnancy and childbirth and being a parent in late stage capitalism, like, just all of it.Because, yeah, you know, you have your kids. So Colleen, why are we still talking about it? You should be happy and just getting on with your life. That's the message that we're so often given. Oh, your body did this amazing thing. That's true. And that was a very difficult experience. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. And people say like, for things like birth trauma, so often you hear again, this is, I guess, goes with that toxic positivity, but like, well, as long as you got your baby, as long as you got a healthy baby, and I'm like, that's so dually insulting to both parents who don't have “a healthy baby” at the end, like, whose babies have, you know, physical or medical issues, and then also to people who did experience, like, trauma, or it was like, you know, they're just things didn't go as planned are also allowed to feel things and to have grief. The main theme here is toxic positivity is, like, really problematic for this stage of life.Laura Thomas: It doesn't serve anyone. And I think that connects back yeah, back to kind of what you were saying about being given permission to just loathe your body in the face of, you know, otherwise messaging that, just tells you to love your body and appreciate the things that it can do. I think we need to make a lot more space for these tensions, these complicated feelings.So not to be like, well, you have your babies now! But also I did want to talk to you a little bit about parenting from the perspective that, you know, you are someone with lived experience of an eating disorder and also an eating disorder therapist raising these children and, I love the messages that you put out around, you know, protecting their embodiment and their relationship with food.And I'd really love it if you could share, you know, a couple of the messages that you feel are most important to pass down to your kids to, I suppose, help disrupt that intergenerational transmission of body shame and disordered eating. Colleen Reichmann: I think about this every day. One thing that I do want to make sure I say, because I just…I feel really strongly that there's a lot of pressure around this generation, like our generation of moms, to break intergenerational toxicity or messaging, and I just feel really strongly that you don't have to be perfectly healed to do that.Laura Thomas: Yes, 100%.Colleen Reichmann: You can be, like, still really struggling and be breaking, like, those intergenerational messages. I think that's really important to know. And also – this might even be, like, a less popular take – but that to not put too much pressure on yourself to break, like, all, like, maybe your role is breaking, maybe you break these ones, and then over there, you're still working on that, or those are, like, you're, like, just, I don't know, I think there's a lot of weird pressure now to be these, like, totally healed mothers.Laura Thomas: There is. And I'm so glad that you said that. I think not only is there a lot of pressure in the form of often, like, you know, things that we should say or do or these, like, scripts that you often read on social media. There's a lot of those and some of them can be really, really helpful. Some of them less so, but I've been thinking a lot about this idea of how sometimes we need to say and do a lot less.Colleen Reichmann: Mm hmm.Laura Thomas: And how that's also okay. You don't have to, like, you know, do like, have all the little scripts memorised. But what might be a good starting point is if you don't talk shit about your own body in front of your kids. Like, if you just don't do that, that, that might be all that is needed.There are helpful things that we can do, of course. But, yeah, I really appreciate you just kind of giving that…that caveat that, yeah, you, you don't have to be all, have everything all figured out. It's enough to be kind of thinking and reflecting and and not saying the shit things.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and that…I feel like that is huge. That alone is just so monumental, the shift of like not saying negative stuff about our bodies or other people's, like, it's actually pretty easy once you get…like, it's easy to start to not like, comment on people's bodies, like, once you really get into the hang of it, like, in any direction, like, not comment…compliments or negative things.So that's huge. And at this point, I do also want to say they're one and three, so I'm probably so freaking annoying to, like, parents of older kids. Like, I think I know what I'm talking about or something when I've been in this for like three years.Laura Thomas: You and me both. You and me both!Colleen Reichmann: They're like, what do you know?But for right now, my feeling from what I've seen is that it's almost, like, away from bodies and food. There's messages that are, like, more important. Like, than even the things you say about bodies and food, like, one of the ones that I feel most strongly about, and I say to them, I try to say it every day, is like, I'm so happy you're in this world.Like, I am so happy you're here. The things that you add to my life, I, like, can't even put into words, because I just feel like that's a really, like… there's something very protective about that message, like at least one person in this world is like, thinks like the sun rises and set, like, like, she is just so happy that I'm here, like, that's…and that's also, I like to tell people that because I feel like it's really also easy, like, instead of being perfectly healed and the, you know, the most knowledgeable about all the body positivity things, like, focus on making sure they feel like your just delight in their presence that doesn't have to do with their appearance, you know.Laura Thomas: Yeah, that idea of taking delight in the fact that they're there and they're in your life and, you know, they're gonna absorb that energy as it were. I love that.And also I was just gonna make the caveat that I'm also sometimes displeased to see my child and that's also okay if you have those. Especially at like six o'clock in the morning when I'm like, you're supposed to still be asleep. So yeah, I didn't want that to sound like, uh, an imperative.Colleen Reichmann: I think there was this research, I could be wrong, but I thought there was like research that you just have to do it for like 5 or 10 minutes a day, and that can be fundamental to self esteem building, but I also don't know if that's true. I feel like I could have made that up, but I think, so it doesn't have to be all day long.Laura Thomas: Don't fact check, Colleen.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, just trust me. But, like, in a similar sense to that, I also think another thing that's just so helpful for, like, our kids and their bodies, is the way we talk about sex and their body parts, like, using the medical terms for body parts and not being…like, I talked in another podcast about how I recognised with my daughter when I was saying the word vagina, that I have felt, vaguely uncomfortable at first. And I was like, whoa, well, there's nobody in her life right now that's gonna like, show her how to feel comfortable and like that my body parts are all allowed other than me. I need to kind of step into that, own it.And so I got a book, like, uh, the Pop Out Vagina Book or something. And we, like, read it every day and I was like…that's another really kind of basic, easy way to show them, this is how to just feel comfortable and, like, safe in your body.Laura Thomas: I love that. I'm going to get the link to that book and put it in the show notes for anyone else who's kind of…yeah, because I mean, I think our generation, we were like given all of these kind of like cutesy code words for labia and vagina and of course it feels uncomfortable because it's the first time that we're really having to use those words in…and teach other people about those words.So, of course, it would feel uncomfortable. I love that you're normalising that. And yeah, there's tons of really cool books and resources that you can use to normalise that. I wanted to ask you just really quickly about one sort of food related message that you shared on, I think it was a Reel. This is a message that you want to instill into your kids where you've said that food is not just fuel. You're allowed to eat for boredom, for pleasure, to self soothe. Your appetite isn't scary for us. Ever. I just love this message so much and I just wanted to hear you kind of unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I think my hope is to just make food a really… like, you're allowed to interact with food in the ways that are innate to all of us, and you're never going to be micromanaged, and, like, I will never micromanage you, and I hope that you don't feel the need to micromanage yourself as you get older. Because we all, like, that is a very healthy and okay, like, human drive is to use food we have for, like, you know, ever to, to celebrate, to mourn, to self soothe at times, or hunger, for things other than hunger, like it's.. just hope to be able to foster an environment where it's all allowed and it's never, like, there are never nonverbal or verbal messages that, like, your appetite's scary or, you know, I have a problem with you interacting with food. Like I just really want to be protective of their relationship with it.Laura Thomas: I think that the line that really, really resonated for me was that piece that your appetite isn't scary for us, ever. And I also just wanted to acknowledge that  for a lot of people I know listening to the podcast and who read the newsletter, their kid's appetite does feel scary and overwhelming to them.And I just wanted to say, you know, we see you and that is the soup that we're swimming in. So it's totally understandable that you feel like that. And something that, you know, when I'm doing workshops and things on embodied eating, I ask parents to look for the signs that you can trust your child, look for, you know, the signs that they know how to trust their own bodies and think about what we can learn from that. So I'll offer that. I don't know if that's helpful, but I just wanted to acknowledge that yeah, our kids' appetites can be scary sometimes. I'm with you, Colleen. Like, they shouldn't be, but it's the messaging that we've been indoctrinated into thinking.Colleen Reichmann: Like it is very counterculture to say like, your appetite isn't scary and you're allowed to eat to self soothe. So I totally empathize and understand why people do feel like that fear…and it comes from a place like think about the stakes that we feel like we're under with this, like, the stakes that they're trying to sell us are like you're not a good mom or parent if you don't manage food and…yeah in this way or their weight. And that's just scary for everyone,   so I have so much empathy for people trying to break free.Laura Thomas: Yeah. But even just again, you know, going back to what we talked about before about not having to be perfect with this stuff, but even, you know, saying to your kids, I trust your appetite, even if you're not 100% there yet. But I think there is something so powerful if you could at least, you know, in giving that message at least.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah.Laura Thomas: All right, Colleen, this has been so great. Like I said to you off mic, there are so many different ways that I felt like we could have taken this conversation. We could have just talked about parenting stuff. We could have just talked about the grief stuff, but we tried to squish it all in. So thank you so much for being here.At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it could be anything. It could be a show, it could be a literal snack, whatever it is. So can you share with us what have you been snacking on lately?Colleen Reichmann: Yes. Well, thank you for having me. First of all, this was such a great conversation. Okay. I have two. I have a literal snack. I've been loving is these Trader Joe's chocolate sea salt graham crackers that are…Laura Thomas: Stop. I'm so, I'm so like…last Christmas, my brother sent me, like, a huge care package of stuff just from Trader Joe's and it was all their, like, crunchy great snacks and we can't get them here. So, yeah, they sound amazing.Colleen Reichmann: They're so good. They have like, they have it down with the snacks. Laura Thomas: They're really on point with their snacks, yeah. Colleen Reichmann: And those are great for like, I like to have them, especially while I'm reading, which is the other thing I'm snacking on, which I wrote it down, so I did justice to the actual title. I'm rereading…it's called, Like a Mother, A Feminist Journey Through The Science and CultureLaura Thomas: Oh, it's Angela Garbes.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, yes.Laura Thomas: I haven't read that, but I've, yeah, I've read her follow up book, which is Essential Labor. I don't know if you've read that. Oh, so good.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I've read that one. I really like both of them. I honestly like, they're just…they're the type of thing you have to read. I'm re-reading this one because I'm like, I feel like there's so much amazing stuff in it and I, oh my gosh, I love. Yeah, her writing is just, incredible. And the way she writes about motherhood is so different than what I've seen elsewhere. Laura Thomas: Oh, man. Yeah. I know. I have thought about going back and reading her first book after coming to her through Essential Labor, and her Substack is great as well if, yeah, if anyone is…I'll link to that in the, in the show notes. So, okay. Yeah. You're making me think I need to go back and read that.  So my snack is an illiteral snack this time. So there is another Substack newsletter called that probably everyone is sick of hearing me talk about because I link to them like every week in our like weekly community threads. Ruby Tandoh is one of the writers for Vittles and she did this like deep, deep, deep dive into London ice cream culture and all the different kind of ice creams from…that are not just like gelato and ice cream and like the things that you hear a lot about. And she tried like, I don't know, something like 350 different kinds of ice cream all all across London. She narrowed it down to like a top 16. So this is a really long way of telling you that my snack is one of the ice creams that she talked, I picked, I think it was like number 14 or 15 on the list and it's called Vagabond ice cream. And they do these vegan, like, choc ices. I don't know, what do you call them in the States? Like, choc  blocks or some, I don't know, some like, Do you know what I mean? And then it's got, it's got like a layer of chocolate around it. What is that called in the States?Colleen Reichmann: Like an ice cream sandwich?Laura Thomas: No, because that's like, that's like a cookie, right? With cookies on the, on either side.Okay. Someone, I'm sure someone in the comments will let us know, but the flavour is like a peanut butter ice cream and then the chocolate has bits of pretzel around it. So you've got that salty, sweet, crunchy…like it's a textural delight, for anyone who is like a sensory seeker, that's yes, very, very good. Colleen, would you mind sharing just quickly where people can find you and your work?Colleen Reichmann: My website is just ColleenReichman.com and then I have an Instagram which is @DrColleenReichmann.  , I tinker around on TikTok under the same username. I struggle with making those, like, educational, though. A lot of them are just silly. And let's see…I started a Threads because everybody's doing it. So I jumped on the bandwagon. Same username. And then I have a Substack, which is Musings From A Mama, which I'm trying to figure out a way to write regularly because it just brings me such joy to write about the complexities of motherhood. And then my email is just colleenreichmann@gmail.com.Laura Thomas: Oh, cool. I don't know that anyone's ever shared, like, straight up shared their email before, but I love…Colleen Reichmann: Yeah!Laura Thomas: Just get in touch, everyone, just…Colleen Reichmann: Come on over.Laura Thomas:  No, I really love your Substack and I'm glad to hear that you're going to be thinking of ways to write more often. So yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes.Colleen, it's been so great to talk to you. Thank you so much.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, thanks for having me. OUTROLaura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI last week: How Do You Deal With Clothes That Don't Fit Anymore?* The Audacity of Fussy Eating Advice* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram* Hey Ella's Kitchen - Food Play Doesn't Solve Systemic Inequity FFS This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Can we still love the work of Hemingway, Polanski, Naipaul, Miles Davis, or Picasso? Should we love it? In this unflinching, deeply personal book that expands on her instantly viral Paris Review essay, “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” Claire Dederer asks: Does genius deserve special dispensation? Is male monstrosity the same as female monstrosity? Does art have a mandate to depict the darker elements of the psyche? And what happens if the artist stares too long into the abyss? She explores the audience's relationship with complicated artists, asking: How do we balance our undeniable sense of moral outrage with our equally undeniable love of the work? In a more troubling vein, she wonders if an artist needs to be a monster to create something great. And if an artist is also a mother, does one identity inexorably, and fatally, interrupt the other? Highly topical, morally wise, honest to the core, Monsters is certain to incite a conversation about whether and how we can separate artists from their art. Claire Dederer is a bestselling memoirist, essayist, and critic. Her books include the critically acclaimed Love and Trouble: A Midlife Reckoning, as well as Poser: My Life in Twenty-three Yoga Poses, which was a New York Times bestseller. Poser has been translated into eleven languages, optioned for television by Warner Bros., and adapted for the stage. Sonora Jha is the author of the memoir How to Raise a Feminist Son and the novel Foreign. After a career as a journalist covering crime, politics, and culture in India and Singapore, she moved to the United States to earn a PhD in media and public affairs. Dr. Jha's op-eds, essays, and public appearances have been featured in the New York Times, on the BBC, in anthologies, and elsewhere. She is a professor of journalism at Seattle University. Her new novel, The Laughter, has opened to rave reviews from The New York Times, Washington Post, Kirkus Reviews, and others.  Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Monsters The Elliott Bay Book Company

Movies, books, and TV shows tell us we should've already found our people — those close, always dependable, tried-and-true forever friends — by the time we're adults (and if we haven't, there must be something wrong with us). But it's often easier said than done. Where do you find close friends beyond childhood or school? Is it even possible? Like many people navigating adulthood, Lane Moore thought she would have friends by now. Sure, Moore has plenty of casual acquaintances and people she likes hanging out with, but she wanted to find her people — the ones she lists as her emergency contact, the ones she calls when something funny or horrible happens, the ones who bring over soup over when she's sick as she would do for them — her chosen family. You Will Find Your People is the groundbreaking guide to making and keeping the friends we've all been desperately waiting for. In this follow-up to her best-selling book How to Be Alone, Moore shows us how to make real friends as an adult, cope with friend breakups, navigate friendships with coworkers, roommates, and family members, and provides real tools on how to create healthy boundaries with friends to deepen your bonds. Through hilarious personal anecdotes and hard-won wisdom, Moore teaches us how to finally work through our fears and past hurts, to bravely cultivate and maintain the lifelong friendships we deserve. Lane Moore is an award-winning stand-up comedian, actor, author, and musician. Moore is the creator of the hit comedy show Tinder Live, and the bestselling author of How To Be Alone and the forthcoming You Will Find Your People. Moore's writing has appeared everywhere from The New Yorker to The Onion, and she is the former sex and relationships editor at Cosmopolitan, where she received a GLAAD Award for her groundbreaking work expanding the magazine's queer coverage. Moore is the frontperson in the band It Was Romance and lives in Brooklyn with her dog-child, Lights. Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year as well as a finalist for the Washington State Book Award in nonfiction. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, and New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Lindy West is a former contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and is the author of Shit, Actually, the New York Times bestselling memoir Shrill, and the essay collection The Witches Are Coming. Her work has also appeared in This American Life, The Guardian, Cosmopolitan, GQ, Vulture, Jezebel, and others. She is the co-founder of the reproductive rights destigmatization campaign #ShoutYourAbortion. Lindy is a writer and executive producer on Shrill, the Hulu comedy adapted from her memoir. She co-wrote and produced the independent feature film Thin Skin. You Will Find Your People Third Place Books

Care is Essential Labor, says Angela Garbes. So are diversity and gender equity. How can we weave these important truths together? Reimagine the workday, and normalize that people of all ages and all genders are willing and capable of providing care across the life cycle. Guests: Paula Span and Ed Frauenheim www.thirdpath.org

Eighty years ago, Congress formalized a 40 hour work week in the United States. That policy hasn't changed since then, even though today's workforce looks very different than it did in the 1940s. With so many people working from home these days or dropping out of the workforce altogether, is it time we rethink our employment laws? What if we worked four days a week instead of five? Would it completely upend our work culture? This week on Downside Up, Chris Cillizza is joined by Anne Helen Petersen, author of “Out of Office;” Angela Garbes, author of “Essential Labor;” and Charlotte Lockhart, founder of the nonprofit 4 Day Week - Global, to explore what the world would look if everyone works fewer hours. To learn more about how CNN protects listener privacy, visit cnn.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's “Post Reports,” a conversation with author Angela Garbes about her new book, “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change.” Read more:In 2020, author Angela Garbes found herself at home taking care of her two daughters, clinically depressed and unable to write. It was a time when people were told to stay home, unless you were an essential worker. “But I remember sitting there being like, ‘What about me?' ” Garbes told “Post Reports” editor Lexie Diao. “What about parents? What about mothers? Like, what we are doing is nothing less than essential. … The pandemic has exposed that without care, we're lost.”Garbes's new book is called “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change.” The book examines the history of caregiving in America through the lens of the author's own Filipinx identity, and makes the case that caregiving is an undervalued and overlooked labor that disproportionately relies on women of color.

They're dealing with a consumer that they've never marketed to before and they don't really have the tools to do that. They don't know what's going to speak to that consumer. And it's also fatphobia, right? Because the brand doesn't want to center fat people as their customer. So they have to put everybody together in order for it to be okay. You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter. Today I am chatting once again with the fantastic Mia O'Malley. Mia is content creator on Instagram and Tiktok (@MiaOMalley and @plussizebabywearing). Mia has been on the show before, so you’re probably already a big fan. I asked her back today because we needed to have a deep dive conversation about everything happening at Old Navy with plus size clothing.Also! Substack has asked us to try out a new format for this episode. Paid subscribers, you’re getting the full audio and full transcript, below. (So nothing has changed, just consider this your July bonus episode!) Free list folks: You’re getting the first chunk of my conversation with Mia (both audio and transcript), but if you would like the full version, you’ll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Reader subscriptions enable me to pay guests like Mia for their time and labor, so please, consider investing in these conversations if this is work you care about. When you get full access to my conversation with Mia, you’ll get way more juicy details on the whole Old Navy situation. And you’ll find out the two brands we think are doing a surprisingly GOOD job on plus size clothes right now. I bet it’s not who you think! PS. You voted and the results are in: We’ll be reading ESSENTIAL LABOR by Angela Garbes for the August Burnt Toast Book Club! Mark your calendars for Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern.Episode 55 TranscriptVirginiaHi Mia. So we'll start by reminding listeners who you are and what you do.MiaI'm Mia O'Malley. I'm a content creator on Instagram. I have my account @MiaOMalley where I share a lot of resources for fat and plus sized people and some of my own style and life. And then I have an account called @plussizebabywearing on Instagram and I'm @plussizebabywearing on TikTok.VirginiaLast time, we had a pretty wide-ranging conversation where we talked about the intersection of fat activism and momfluencing, about finding a fat-friendly health care provider—all sorts of stuff. But this time, we have a very specific mission. When this news story broke, I was in the middle of writing my book, and I had no time to think about it, but you were on it. Your Instagram is this amazing resource. And I was like, Thank God, Mia will come on and explain to us what is happening with Old Navy and plus size clothing. I mean, it's a mess. How did this all start? MiaSo in August of 2021, old Navy launched what they called BODEQUALITY, and it was like, “the democracy of style.” They were going to offer sizes 0 to 30 and XS to 4x at the same price and then they would have it in 1200 stores. And they would be rolling out sizes 0 to 28 with no special plus size section. They also wanted us to know that there were going to be mannequins size 12 and 18. The CEO of Old Navy said, “It's not a one time campaign. It's a full transformation of our business and service to our customers, based on years of working closely with them to research their needs.” The marketing campaign included a TV commercial with Aidy Bryant from SNL and Shrill.VirginiaSo, none of this was subtle. This was a very full-throated, “We are here for plus sizes.”MiaWell, yes and no. The campaign was not subtle, but the campaign was also confusing. So many people did not even realize what BODEQUALITY meant.VirginiaWell, they made up that word. MiaAnd they made sure to include all diverse body types which, in general, is great. But it's part of a watered down body positivity, where we're not really getting to the heart of the matter and helping the people that are marginalized, that need to be helped and need to be lifted up. A lot of people did not recognize that this campaign meant that plus sizes were being carried in stores. It included people of “diverse body types,” it said “democracy of fashion.” But what does this really mean to someone? Does this mean that I can get my size in your store? It's not really clear. This is me editorializing, but I just think: We couldn't have a campaign that was just for fat people. We have to do it adjacent to thin people.VirginiaIt gives them this cover, because they're using this aspirational rhetoric, instead of saying explicitly, “We have screwed over fat customers.” MiaExactly. It just was not clear enough to the fat consumer that they were going to be able to access their clothes in store. It was muddled in the same way that body positivity gets muddled when we don't talk about the people that really should be centered in the movement. But as someone who has been critical of Old Navy in the past, even I wanted BODEQUALITY to work. We wanted it to be an example for other retailers and brands, that that this could be something they could do. Even though I had messages in my DMs talking about issues folks were seeing, I didn't really want to talk about it at first, because I wanted to see how far it would go. Well, less than a year later the Wall Street Journal reported that Old Navy would be pulling extended sizes from their stores. That article is a whole other thing that we can get into, too, because it's its own beast. VirginiaYeah, so that's what just happened, which blew this all up. It looked like they were blaming their sales dropping on the fact that they had added more plus sizes to the stores. That was the story out there, right?MiaYes, that's right. Suzanne Kapner—she wrote the article called “Old Navy Made Clothing Sizes for Everyone. It Backfired.” VirginiaI will say quickly, as a journalist, the headline is not Suzanne's fault. We never get to pick our headlines. However, the article itself is also problematic as you can now explain.MiaThere are a few issues with the article. Most specifically, it doesn't include comments from anyone in Old Navy corporate. They took quotes from other interviews that they had done, but Old Navy didn't comment on this article itself. So a lot of what they had was attributions to someone who worked in the store, a PR person, a city analyst—different things. They also have this quote from Diane Von Furstenberg, who spoke at the the Future of Everything Festival and they put that front and center. VirginiaSo all we really know is that Old Navy sales dropped, right? We don't really know why, or whether it is reasonable to blame that on plus sizes.MiaCorrect. First of all, they did not give this even a year to work. The CEO, Sonya Syngal, said on an earnings call that they “overestimated demand in stores” and they launched too broadly. They "over-planned larger sizes, with customer demand under-pacing supply. Someone else in Old Navy corporate said it was “a realigning of store inventory.” Which is not at all what the article says but sort of points to, they had an inventory problem. VirginiaWhich, it's been a pandemic! Everyone shifted to online shopping. They haven't yet gotten the customers back in the stores, period. Getting inventory right, regardless of sizing, is sort of a moving target right now. MiaWhat we're hearing from customers at Old Navy though, is they weren't even aware that plus sizes were in stores. That’s possibly because of the way that these stores are laid out. They took away or they didn't have a plus size section for a long time. But the plus size shopper is used to going to a specific section for their clothing. In this “democratizing of fashion,” Old Navy put everything together. And in some cases that made it harder for people to actually find their size. You had a lot of packed racks. You've had people struggling to find their sizes across the board. I'm also hearing that although Old Navy says that they went to great lengths to look at their fit when they did this inclusive sizing, that the fits are completely off for many, many items. So, Old Navy denim that people were used to buying for years, totally changed. People's sizes completely changed. Rockstar jeans, which they had been buying for over a decade, are now a completely different size. And in many cases, people were having to size up two or three sizes thinking that their body has changed in some drastic way, when really Old Navy sizing, completely changed in many items. VirginiaThat makes me wonder how inclusive they really intended to be. This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com

Our guest today is Angela Garbes. Angela is the author of the national bestseller Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change. Her first book, Like a Mother was an NPR Best Book of 2018. Angela's writing has appeared in the New York Times, The Cut, New York, Bon Appétit, and featured on Fresh Air and The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. You can follow Angela Garbes on Instagram here.Don't forget: We have a Patreon! Sign up for invites to special events, exclusive content, and bonus EIF episodes: patreon.com/everythingisfine Our show's Instagram is @eifpodcast. We're also on Twitter @theeifpodcast and Facebook. you can find Kim on her blog Girls of a Certain Age. You can find Jenn at Here Are Some Things. If you like the show, please rate or review it and don't forget to share it with your favorite 40+ friends. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We explore the hidden world around us — the sights, smells, tastes, sounds, and vibrations that are imperceptible to humans, but are perceived by various animals and insects. We talk with science writer Ed Yong about his new book An Immense World.Justin Chang reviews two films from the Sundance Film festival — now streaming — about relationships between a younger man and an older woman, Cha Cha Real Smooth and Good Luck to You, Leo Grande.Also, we hear from Angela Garbes, author of the new book Essential Labor. She wrote it after having to give up work during the pandemic lockdown, when she no longer had daycare. She says, raising children shouldn't be as lonely, bankrupting and exhausting as it is.

We explore the hidden world around us — the sights, smells, tastes, sounds, and vibrations that are imperceptible to humans, but are perceived by various animals and insects. We talk with science writer Ed Yong about his new book An Immense World.Justin Chang reviews two films from the Sundance Film festival — now streaming — about relationships between a younger man and an older woman, Cha Cha Real Smooth and Good Luck to You, Leo Grande.Also, we hear from Angela Garbes, author of the new book Essential Labor. She wrote it after having to give up work during the pandemic lockdown, when she no longer had daycare. She says, raising children shouldn't be as lonely, bankrupting and exhausting as it is.

Congress comes to an agreement on gun control legislation, Lewis Black rants about the sudden rise of high-priced weddings in 2022, and Angela Garbes discusses her book "Essential Labor." See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Angela Garbes, author of ESSENTIAL LABOR and LIKE A MOTHER, in conversation with Julia Turshen.Follow-up links:For more about Angela and her work, head here.To sign up for Julia's newsletter, head here.For more about Julia + her work, head here.

Mothering is work. It's creative, it's exhausting, it can be financially crushing, and it is immeasurably rewarding. But always, it is work. Our guest this week is Angela Garbes, bestselling author of Like a Mother. Her new book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change is now available. About Essential Labor From the acclaimed author of Like a Mother comes a reflection on the state of caregiving in America, and an exploration of mothering as a means of social change. The Covid-19 pandemic shed fresh light on a long-overlooked truth: mothering is among the only essential work humans do. In response to the increasing weight placed on mothers and caregivers—and the lack of a social safety net to support them—writer Angela Garbes found herself pondering a vital question: How, under our current circumstances that leave us lonely, exhausted, and financially strained, might we demand more from American family life? In Essential Labor, Garbes explores assumptions about care, work, and deservedness, offering a deeply personal and rigorously reported look at what mothering is, and can be. A first-generation Filipino-American, Garbes shares the perspective of her family's complicated relationship to care work, placing mothering in a global context—the invisible economic engine that has been historically demanded of women of color. Garbes contends that while the labor of raising children is devalued in America, the act of mothering offers the radical potential to create a more equitable society. In Essential Labor, Garbes reframes the physically and mentally draining work of meeting a child's bodily and emotional needs as opportunities to find meaning, to nurture a deeper sense of self, pleasure, and belonging. This is highly skilled labor, work that impacts society at its most foundational level. Part galvanizing manifesto, part poignant narrative, Essential Labor is a beautifully rendered reflection on care that reminds us of the irrefutable power and beauty of mothering. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/alyssa-milano-sorry-not-sorry/message

"This to me is basic, but it feels like we've drifted really far from it in our culture. That to be a human, the basic condition of being a human is being needful. You know, like we need air, we need housing, we need food, we need companionship. We need all of these things. And somehow in our culture, it feels like you're asking for too much, if you need things, right, you're supposed to be super self-sufficient. You're supposed to be able to like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You're supposed to be able to like handle everything and it's just it's work. And it is it's too much for one person to do." So says author and journalist Angela Garbes, who in the first pages of her new book, ESSENTIAL LABOR, expands the concept of “mothering,” creating a tent for everyone, of any gender, who is engaged in the process of creation and care. This pretty much includes everyone. A first-generation Philipino-American, Angela makes the argument that the United States must re-orient the way we think about everything—the economy, in particular—to venerate the vital act of care, of tending to each other's needs, and of prioritizing the collective…otherwise we are lost. In our conversation, we touch on what this means for all of our lives, including the ways that women like me must come out of our shame pockets to talk about all the people who care for us—labor that has become largely invisible behind the veneer of our projections of what it looks like to be a functioning family in America. As I explain to Angela, our family would cease to work without Vicky, who is effectively our third parent. I believe Angela is right, that we need to be having these collective conversations first, in order to push culture to reprioritize against a new axiom of what really matters in our lives. MORE FROM ANGELA GARBES: ESSENTIAL LABOR: MOTHERING AS SOCIAL CHANGE LIKE A MOTHER: A FEMINIST JOURNEY THROUGH THE SCIENCE AND CULTURE OF PREGNANCY FOLLOW ANGELA ON TWITTER ANGELA'S WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen now (43 min) | "I could spend my whole life trying to make my body do a thing. Or I could just live my life, in the body that I have. I take option two."

We hear so much about Betty Friedan, and the Feminine Mystique. And the whole thing was women find power and fulfillment and identity outside of the home by working professionally. Right? The thing that that leaves out is when you go outside of the home, who’s in the home? Like that work never went away.Hello and welcome to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health.Today I am chatting with Angela Garbes, author of Like a Mother and the brilliant new book Essential Labor. I am a huge fan of Angela’s. We’ve been sort of admiring one another from afar over the internet for several years now, and this is our first IRL conversation (Well, IRL+Zoom, if you will.) We talk a ton about her new book, which is about the social construction of modern motherhood and what we need to do to truly support mothers, but also all caregivers and care work. It’s a really fun and sort of surprisingly funny conversation for what’s a pretty heavy topic. I think you will get so much out of it and even more out of her book Essential Labor, which I really recommend you run right out and get. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us in your podcast player! And subscribe to the Burnt Toast newsletter for episode transcripts, reported essays, and more.PS. The Burnt Toast Giving Circle is over $11,000! You are all amazing. We will be picking which state election to fund in the next few weeks, so stay tuned for details there. And if you’ve been thinking about joining, we still need you! Here’s the Burnt Toast episode where I announced it, ICYMI, and the link to donate.Episode 43 TranscriptVirginiaSo the new book is just incredible. How are you doing? How are you feeling? AngelaThank you for asking! I’m feeling so many things. I’m feeling tired. I hate to be the person that leads with “I’m tired,” but I feel like writing a book is is a frankly terrible process. I feel like my brain is still sort of recovering from that. And I was on kind of an accelerated timeline. I finished edits on the book in like December/January. And now it’s coming out. But I mean, I’m excited. I feel like I have been cooped up with these ideas and these thoughts for like, two years, and I am ready to like, be on the loose. COVID variants willing, I’m ready to go on tour and connect with people. I’m really desperate for that contact and conversation. So I feel really good. And I feel proud. I feel really proud of the book I’ve written. I’m trying to just hold on to that because amidst all the chaos that is going to happen, and hearing what other people think, I want to always remember how good I feel about this book and how that’s really the only thing that matters.[Virginia Note: So far, people think it’s amazing. Here’s Jia Tolentino and Sara Louise Petersen saying so, among others.]VirginiaYour book is very of the moment. Did the idea come out of the pandemic? Or was it something you’ve been thinking about, because it also ties so closely to your first book?AngelaThe secret history of this book is that I sold a second book right after my first book came out in 2018. It was a book of essays about the human body, like the body as a lens for how we move through the world and how we process the world. I was trying to write that book for two years, and it was due the summer of the pandemic. A couple of weeks into lockdown I contacted my editor and I was like, “There’s no way. There’s no way I can meet this deadline.” I’m a professional, like, I always get it done. And luckily, she was totally understanding because she was like, “I just told my husband, I think I have to quit my job.” So like everyone was going through this thing. So we pushed the deadline back several times. I used to co-host a podcast called The Double Shift with my friend, Katherine Goldstein. She invited me, during the pandemic, to cohost this with her because she wanted to continue to make the podcast during a time in which it felt almost impossible to do it and during a time in which we both felt mother’s voices, and the voices of caregivers, were both vitally important, but on the edge of being erased. And just consumed by domestic work. In September 2020, 865,000 women dropped out of the workforce in one month, because no one could be a caretaker, a virtual school proctor, and a professional worker at the same time. So I said, “women’s participation in the workforce is directly tied to their participation in public life. And what happens if women disappear for a year? Or more?”So, from that lighthearted thought, I had a wonderful editor who reached out to me and she was like, “Do you want to write about this? I want someone to write about it and I think you need to do it.” I had not been writing and I was scared to do it. But I basically put every bad thought I’d been having about disappearing, about feeling unsatisfied by domestic labor, about questioning ambition, about just everything, and I wrote this piece for The Cut that ended up going a little bit viral. Elizabeth Warren retweeted it—career highlight for me. And I realized I’ve been isolated and alone with my depression and my concerns, but I’m not alone. So many people are feeling this way now, as everyone’s trying to force us out of the pandemic. Which, facts to the contrary. These problems aren’t going away. Childcare, figuring it out on your own. Our society’s treatment of mothers and care work. We have not solved that problem. It is a longstanding problem that we have never properly reckoned with. So that’s a very long answer to how I wrote this book. The one nice thing about it is that there’s a lot about embodiment in this book. And while I was not unfortunately able to cannibalize everything from the first book, it did feel good because all of that research that I had done that I couldn’t figure out how to make it work. A lot of that research and some snippets of writing made it into this book. And it also made me feel like everything I’ve been doing has not been a waste of time.VirginiaYou give us this whole history of care work, tracing your family’s history. It helped me, and I think it will help a lot of people, put what happened in the pandemic into context. People with privilege were caught by surprise by how hard it is to live. Obviously, it was not news to the majority of people, but it helped me put in context, like, what is happening right now? And why is it so bad? Why is it happening in this way? So it absolutely transcends the pandemic because you’re explaining this much larger systemic issue and also looking ahead into where do we go from here with that.There is a snippet from the book I wanted to talk about in detail. Okay, so actually two little quotes I’m gonna read. You wrote: The pandemic revealed that this can happen to anyone. That work won’t save affluent white women, despite Betty Friedan’s theorizing. Ultimately, they cannot ever fully outsource domestic labor, it still comes down to them. And then later you wrote: It makes white women uncomfortable to think that they are no different from their hired help. What they chase and  have been given is validation, acceptance, and success—but only on terms set by white men.I mean, Angela! So good! I read those, I underlined them, I came back and read them again. I was just flashing back to so many phone calls with editors. So many reporting trips. I remember being on a reporting trip when I was visibly pregnant with my second daughter, and feeling like I had to hide it and downplay it. This weird guy who worked for the Philadelphia Mayor was making comments about it. It was like a whole thing where I was like, I can’t be pregnant in this public space because it’s getting so weird for everybody.Angela I can’t be who I am. VirginiaThis is what my body’s doing right now and I have to do this work. There are these ways in which we are conditioned to downplay our kids, to downplay our responsibility to our kids, in order to seem professional and successful. For a lot of us, the pandemic is what made it impossible to maintain that lie. Like your editor, I was in the same boat of like, “Okay, I’m just not working for several months here.” I would love for you to unpack for us a little further why this is so specifically a problem of white feminism.Angela I mean, I want to start by saying that I’m really glad that you want to talk about this. As I was writing it, I was like, “This feels risky.” Do I want to call out white women? As a woman of color that felt and still feels a little bit risky. But this really gives me hope, because you know my joke is “some of my best friends are white women.” And I feel like there’s a reckoning that’s happening. I know that word has been overused in the last couple of years. But I think that people really want to understand what’s happening and why they feel so betrayed, and why so many white women felt and were righteously angry, you know? I want to harness that power which is why I want to keep talking about it. Mainstream feminism, which is white feminism, has always had a race problem, just like the United States. We have never fully acknowledged the history, right? Susan B. Anthony, a great suffragette, did not think that black women deserved to vote. Betty Friedan—and I shouldn’t have to say this, but these women contributed to society. I am not trying to take away, I’m not trying to come for them. VirginiaYou’re not canceling Susan B. Anthony. AngelaExactly. I just feel like these people were human. We hear so much about Betty Friedan and the Feminine Mystique. The whole thing was women finding power and fulfillment and identity outside of the home by working professionally. The thing that that leaves out is when you go outside of the home, who’s in the home? That work never went away. There’s a history of slavery in this country. We have a history of Black women working for free in the home and taking care of children and cooking and cleaning, black women as property. And so it was easy to slot women of color and Black women into these roles as domestic workers because they’d always been doing this labor. So, I just want to point out that women—and specifically affluent white women—were sold a bill of goods. I think Boomer women especially. I think a lot of white women now are reckoning with this. A lot of Boomer women were like, “I can have it all.” And that’s the huge lie that we’re still grappling with. Like, you cannot have it all. Even if you come close to it, someone will be like, “can you hide your pregnant body?” It’s very inconvenient that you are overflowing with life, right? Because white women are also oppressed, right? But there’s a better chance for white women to attain success or to fit in. You know, oppression sucks. The thing that marginalized communities and marginalized women and people of color understand is that this world wasn’t built for us. So success is sort of unattainable. At least, I’m speaking for myself now, this classic, shiny version of white feminist success is out of reach. I started self-identifying as a feminist when I was 12 years old. But nothing I read ever talked about my mother, who was an immigrant from the Philippines who worked and raised three kids. Marginalized people have a better understanding of who is left out of conversations. White women haven’t been challenged to imagine themselves in other people’s shoes. They’ve been encouraged to lean in. But to go back to history, when we think of feminism, we don’t think about Johnnie Tillmon or the National Welfare Rights Organization, who were contemporaries of Betty Friedan. Their work was organizing to make sure that women and families who received welfare, which was called aid for families with dependent children at the time, were able to access aid from the government. There was a time when women receiving that aid were subjected to impromptu searches of their home because the government thought that if they were giving them money, then they had the right to come in and make sure they weren’t sleeping with men. Because if men were in the picture, then they shouldn’t have any support. So the NWRO and Johnnie Tillmon were working in a multiracial coalition for poor people. And their analysis, when faced with the same scenario that Betty Friedan had, was that we should have a universal basic income. We should eliminate poverty and we should make life better for as many people as possible. And that’s also history that we don’t hear about. What white women are taught is white feminism, and actually, there is and has always been a much more inclusive feminism. The feminism of women of color, of marginalized people. It’s time for people to understand that and reckon with it and realize that it’s solidarity. I quote Sylvia Federici in the book: “All women are in a condition of servitude when it comes to the male world.”VirginiaThis distinction between Johnnie Tillmon and Betty Friedan is so important because it shows us that the answer was never to try to live on men’s terms. What you’re arguing for is that we need to reject that whole system. We need to do something really different. AngelaCare work is essential to life. It is the work that makes all other work possible. It’s mind boggling when you realize the extent to which we have tried to make care work invisible. The way we have devalued care work. You either do it as a labor of love as a woman or you outsource it to women of color and you pay them poverty wages. Domestic workers are three times as likely to live in poverty than workers in any other field. The median wage in America is close to $20. The median wage for domestic workers is $12. What I’m arguing is that, actually, the only work that matters as a human being is taking care of people. I was struggling with this in the pandemic with the “mask debate.” I’m at a loss. I don’t know how to convince people that they should care about other people if they don’t already have a sense of that. I think it’s a very human and innate and beautiful urge that we have to take care of each other. And I think our culture has beat it out of us. This culture of individual, of hustle and grinding, every man for themselves, I’m looking out for number one. It’s not working. The pandemic showed us that we can’t do it alone. What I’m arguing for is the visibility of care work, the absolute insistence on the importance of care and viewing care as labor that should be respected and valued, culturally and financially.VirginiaIt makes a ton of sense and is tricky to implement because you just keep coming up against the ways in which the systems don’t allow for it. Do you know what I mean? But I think holding that as the starting point and the goal feels critical to making any change.AngelaI do feel hopeful that we’re having a moment. I think it’s going to take longer than I thought. When we got the Biden administration, we were talking about paid leave. We had been experimenting with direct stimulus payments to people. There was, in the American Rescue Plan, the advanced Child Tax Credit which did lift a lot of families and children out of poverty—like four million of them for the brief time. Even though we have a Democratic leadership in Congress that died and the funding lapsed and so we’re backsliding. I definitely have felt really disappointed and disheartened by that. But the fact that we are talking about these things, the fact that we had those things, there are these glimmers of hope. I also just see, too, that maybe the government isn’t coming to save us, right? Like we’ve known that since the start of the pandemic. Certainly the Trump administration wasn’t going to come and save us. The Biden administration feels like a grave disappointment to me in this sense, too. But what I do see and what I always saw through the pandemic is that we take care of each other. We have pods. We have mutual aid societies. We have playdates, we have community fridges, we have little free libraries. I’ve seen a flourishing of that and that, again, is to me the most beautiful human thing of caring for each other. Maybe we don’t name that as such, but I want to spend some time naming that and acknowledging that and saying that that is how people survived. VirginiaI’m glad you brought that up because that was a big takeaway I had from the book. I would read a chapter, and I I would think, I am craving community so deeply. AngelaDidn’t you have COVID at the time?VirginiaOh right! I read it while I had COVID. I was like, why did I feel so alone? It was because I couldn’t leave my house. AngelaI think I was like, “Virginia! You don’t have to do that!” VirginiaNo, it was actually amazing to read it while I had COVID! I highly recommend it to anyone getting COVID now.AngelaWell I’m honored that I got to keep your company during this dark moment in your life.VirginiaIt was fantastic. Well, and because it was this moment where I was having to parent really intensively because the four of us were locked in our house together. So, it was a great book to be reading. I was like, I am really in this care work right now in a very intense way. I want to go back to the community thing in a minute, but this does remind me. One other thing I thought about as I was reading was that I often don’t like care work. I don’t enjoy it. I love my children—you know, standard disclaimer—but I don’t enjoy a lot of the minutia of negotiating with someone about socks or making a potty try happen. I’m not someone who was ever like, “I would love to be an early education teacher.” Maybe this is my white feminism coming up again, or maybe it’s just my being a heartless person who doesn’t like children enough. Or both. But I have fallen into this trap of no, no, my career still needs to matter so much. My motherhood is going to be a smaller part of my identity because I am not taking the pure pleasure in it that I thought it was supposed to. What I like about what you’re arguing for is: If we really value care work and elevate it, I think we can make it more pleasurable, right? Because it can be less isolating and draining. And it creates an opportunity where, if you don’t love it, it’s less awful that you’re outsourcing. You’re valuing who you’re outsourcing it to, right? It creates a more collaborative community approach towards it. AngelaThe thing that I feel when you say that is like, you shouldn’t have to choose. That’s the thing, you should not have to choose. I hate that. So many of us are left feeling bad or like, “Is it me? Am I heartless? And am I a bad feminist?” We internalize that and I just really want to press pause. Let’s back the drone camera up and be like, this is a systemic issue. We hate women. Our country hates women. It really hates women of color, and it doesn’t value care work. That’s not for you or me to solve individually. We can’t. I just want to point that out, too, because I think that’s a very familiar feeling that people have. I am someone who actually did take great pleasure in care work. Not all of it. Straight up, a lot of it is drudgery. So many fluids. Little silver corners torn off of fruit snack things are everywhere. That’s my thing these days. And also just the feeling that no matter what happens in life, it somehow always comes down to me, on my hands and knees, with a sponge. So, you know, care work is not great when that’s all you have to do, right? Which is what the pandemic showed us. Like, as someone who actually enjoys like a certain amount of care work, like loves to cook, is satisfied by sweeping, I felt like I saw the pleasure bleed out from it in the pandemic. It was really hard to enjoy the things that I used to enjoy. So I don’t expect everyone to be suddenly like, “Oh, I love doing care work and domestic labor.” But I’m talking about some of those physical pleasures of care and how satisfying it can be to care for yourself, too. Meaningful self care, taking care of your body, it feels so nice to give yourself a rest. And I just wanted to give people space and I wanted to give myself space to reimagine these things. If I’m going to be doing this care work, I can’t hate it. Life is so hard. If you do nothing else today but keep yourself alive and love on somebody else, you did a lot. That’s a really good day. VirginiaThis allowed me to take more pleasure in the parts I do enjoy. I do find it really rewarding and have sometimes felt embarrassed to admit I enjoy it, too. That’s the other piece.AngelaOh right. Because then you’d be like, “I’m a housewife.”I mean, I don’t like imaginative play with my children. I don’t want to play hide and seek. I don’t like to do the kitty cat game or meow. It’s just not really my thing. And I’m always like, “Oh, my husband’s more fun,” because he’s willing to do that stuff. But I have more patience to sit and read on the couch with them. The other thing is, young children are so different. My children are seven and four now and I feel like I’m emerging from a dark tunnel. VirginiaMy youngest is four, too, and it is a turning point.AngelaYeah. Thank f*****g god. Because it was really hard for a while there.VirginiaSo as I said, while reading your book is trapped in my house, I really missed community. But you know, I’ll be honest, even when I don’t have COVID, I’m an introverted person. We live in a fairly rural area in the Hudson Valley. We are part of a small town but we don’t even live down in the town. We live out in the woods. What advice do you have for us? Being a better part of our communities feels so fundamental to mothering as social change to valuing care work, but how do you start if you’re not naturally good at that?AngelaThat’s a great question because I think a lot of people feel challenged or like, I want to do something but I don’t know what. The first thing I would say is that small is great. I remember  when you were in COVID, you had posted that a friend brought you groceries. So I think part of it is just that these little gestures actually do go a long way. If it’s safe to have a playdate, having a kid over to explore the woods by your house is very cool. Maybe it’s reaching out to someone you don’t know very well, maybe even a parent that you suspect you might not like that much, but just inviting them. Community doesn’t have to look any particular way. I think it is stepping outside yourself, feeling part of something bigger than yourself, and contributing to it in a hopefully positive way. If you’re in a position of privilege, one great thing to do is to be a community member who does not reap the benefit of community. Who is in fact the person who is giving, whether that is money, or time.  It actually feels really good to care for somebody else and expect nothing in return. We always think community works in a reciprocal way. But maybe the effects are not immediate. This is my existential, philosophical answer. I think you can start small and simple. VirginiaI like focusing on small, it feels doable. Angela It’s the littlest things that are so meaningful and that make you feel like a human being and make you feel like part of something. We are not all made for the grand gesture. You know, like, I am not. I’m so grateful to activists who are in DC, not giving up, talking to people. That’s not my role. Those are not where my energies are best served. I used to think maybe that I was rationalizing and then I was really just lazy and not that good a person. VirginiaI do struggle with that. AngelaI think Everyone has a role to play and sometimes it takes some work to figure out exactly what that is.Meanwhile, you just started a fund through your newsletter to support democratic elections happening in states! I’m not blowing smoke up your ass. Like, that’s huge. And it’s really important and engaging your community.VirginiaI appreciate that. I do think, especially for us introverted types, online community can be much more doable. I also, of course, want to discuss your beautiful chapter “Mothering as Encouraging Appetites. I am quoted in this chapter, so full disclosure, I’m obviously biased to loving it.AngelaYour writing and your work is definitely a guiding force and spirit in the chapter. So thank you for your work.VirginiaThank you. Well, it’s a really powerful piece of writing. You’re talking about owning our appetites, coming to terms with our bodies, and how one of the most powerful things we can do as mothers is help cultivate that in our kids. You wrote about realizing you don’t take after your own mother physically. You wrote:I decided that being a little bit fat was the price I paid for always wanting seconds. I don’t know why I didn’t shrink myself, only allowed myself to expand both in size and in personality.I love this so much. This is my mission for my children, just not wanting them to shrink themselves. And realizing that if this is the body that you have that allows you to be a happy and fully present person, this is the right body.AngelaYeah, that’s a perfect body. VirginiaSo can you tell us a little more about how you arrived at that place? And how it informs how you’re parenting your daughters now around food and body?AngelaI’m not a stereotypical petite Filipino woman. I really struggled with that. I mean, now I look at pictures of myself in high school, and I’m like, I can’t believe I thought I was fat. But the message is so clear. Being thin and being white, that’s how people will recognize you as beautiful. I have struggled with my own self esteem issues with my own body acceptance and body issues. But I feel so grateful that diet culture didn’t interest me. I just really love eating. And I was like, I’m not gonna stop. I mean, part of it is that I really think like, to go back to something we were talking about earlier, I am just all about physical pleasure. And leisure. I love fudgy cheeses. I love really sour vinegar. I love spicy soup. I love chewy bread. I love all of these things and they make me so happy. And I’ve never been good at denying myself pleasure, which isn’t great in terms of impulse control as an adult sometimes. Definitely not in my 20s. But there was something in me, this spirit, that I’m so grateful to little baby Angela for. There was just this spirit that was like, “No. I’m not I’m not going to be crushed.” And so, and I don’t know how I did it. Honestly, like, I’m not sure what I did. So there’s part of me that’s like, I want this to be the same for my girls but I’m not sure how to replicate it.Part of it goes back to white feminism. I was just like, I’m never gonna fit in, so I might as I might as well just be me. And there’s something very freeing in that.VirginiaI wondered if that was a piece of it. I often find women in very small bodies who live very close to the ideal have large struggles, in terms of internal struggle, because it’s like they’re so close and they can’t get there. I mean, fat people are experiencing oppression for their fatness. That’s different. But I’m talking about the internal stuff. And it’s not to say that fat folks don’t also have those struggles, because we do. But I think that when you are like a 98% on a scale that is completely unrealistic, the extreme tactics to get there feel reasonable because you could get there. Whereas I think if you have a body type that is never going to be it, you have to reckon with that earlier in some way. AngelaThere is still a very dominant image of beauty in the United States. But I have this language now where I can say to my kids, like, “Being beautiful, it’s not like the most important thing. Because you decide what’s beautiful. And because it’s not the most important thing to be. The most important thing to be as a nice person, an empathetic person or a kind person.”We have a long way to go, but representationally they see more. They go to school with mixed race kids now. My girls are mixed race. You know, my daughter’s already talking about how I am Brown Filipina, Daddy is American White. My daughters looked at a picture of me from like 10, 12, 14 years ago, and they were like, “Mommy, you got fat.” And I was like, stay in it. Stay in it. You’ve been training for this, Angela. You’ve been training for this. And it was so hard, but I was like, “Yep, I got fat.” They weren’t weird in the moment. Fat to them is an adjective. And that’s all it is. The person who was making it hard was me! And I have tenderness for myself in that moment. But I felt like, oh, no, I’m doing a good job here. One of the things that I hear mothers committing to is like, I am going to continue to struggle with my body, but I want to do my best to not say disparaging things about my body in front of my children. Or to be honest with them about what’s hard about it. What do you do?Virginia I’ve had that same conversation of “Yep, I’m fat. That’s right. Fat bodies are great bodies.” And I definitely have had that same experience of like, “Oh, God, this is the moment that I have been preparing for. And also people ask me for advice on this and so I really better get it right now.”AngelaNo, totally, that’s a lot of pressure.VirginiaI better get a newsletter essay out of this. AngelaWriters are such traitors. When that was happening to me, I was laying on my bed and having that discussion with my girls like about how I’m fat. I’m trying not to cry, and I’m having all of these feelings. And this thing popped Into my mind. I was like, “Well, I’m gonna have to write about this.”VirginiaThanks, kids. Sorry that I do this with our conversations.The other piece of it that you were emphasizing: That being beautiful doesn’t matter that much, and that it needs to matter less—that we both need to broaden our definition of beauty and we need to care less about beauty. It’s hard to hold both of those together, but it’s really the crux of it. You had this line in the book which I really think you need to put on t-shirts: “Eating is a necessity. Being beautiful is not.” Thank you. That’s it.AngelaThat’s what it comes down to.VirginiaYou are allowed to reject this whole system that’s telling you your body isn’t good enough. You’re allowed to just say f**k it, and center your own pleasure and your own hunger. AngelaAnd you’re allowed to talk about how that is really hard sometimes. I’m contributing to the conversation and cultural change. But we can’t solve problems that we don’t talk about. And there’s so much shame and stigma around talking about bodies and how we feel about our own bodies. But yeah, like, 100% I just want to enjoy my life and my body. I could spend my whole life trying to make my body do a thing or I could just live my life in the body that I have. I take option two.VirginiaOption two sounds much easier and less stressful. And more fun, for sure. Butter For Your Burnt ToastAngelaI recommend falling in love with your friends. I just went away on a weekend. It was supposed to be a writing retreat with my friend, the novelist Lydia Kiesling. We became friends because we published our books around the same time, our first books, and our books were both about mothering, so naturally, we were lumped together. But we’ve never lived in the same city and I’ve met her just a couple of times, but I’ve always had this feeling like I think we would be friends. And then I was like, how would we ever figure out how to do that? And then, one of the things in the pandemic is, I’ve just been like, I don’t want to waste time. I want to see my friends, I want to spend time with them. I want to make the most of it. And I want to invest in this friendship. And so I invited her to go away on a weekend with me and we were gonna write. We had these adjacent little studio cabins, I would bring her coffee and a bagel with a fried egg. And then I would get into her bed and we watched “Love Is Blind” together. Like, speaking of physical pleasure, these are the things that we have been denied. And you know, I’m not saying, everyone go jump in bed with all of your friends. But thank God for vaccines, right? Like, that’s an option that is open to us again. I want to remind everyone that we can reawaken to things that are pleasurable and spending time being in the company of friends. What is better than friendship? There’s nothing better. Sex is great, but have you had a friend?VirginiaI did a weekend with my three best friends from when we were in our 20s. And now we live in all different places. We haven’t seen each other, obviously, in a whole pandemic. We did a weekend together last month. I came home feeling high. Like I was just like, I had long conversations with these women that I love so much. Oh, it was amazing.Angela It was like three days of one running conversation. VirginiaIt is such a good feeling. Well, that is a wonderful recommendation. Mine is also very pleasure related, because I felt like that was gonna be a theme in our conversation. I am recommending romance novels, specifically Talia Hibbert and Jasmine Guillory. I have just discovered both of them. Two Black novelists who write about Black characters. The women are usually in larger bodies, and they are really hot and there’s a lot of good sex in these books. They’re romances, so happy endings are guaranteed, but they’re fun and sexy and I haven’t read romance in years and years. My image of Harlequin romance was very like, skinny white lady and you know, big ripped brooding guy and there’s been a total evolution in the genre. There’s all these great feminist writers writing very sex positive, women-centered—like the woman always get taken care of first. Like, chapters ahead, often. She gets hers and then they get around to him much later on. It’s pretty great.Angela I love it! I feel like that’s all the stuff that were taught we don’t deserve. And to see it really front and center? It’s beautiful.Virginia They’re just delightful. And very heteronormative so disclaimer on that. If listeners know of good, queer romance novelists, drop them in comments, because I’m here for that too! I just want people to be having sex and loving their bodies. Well, Angela, thank you again, this was an amazing conversation. Tell people where they can find you and follow your work.AngelaThank you so much, Virginia. It was a little bit like falling in love. You can find me on my website and on Instagram.VirginiaAnd you all need to go and get Essential Labor. It is everywhere you get your books and required reading for Burnt Toast listeners. If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player or tell a friend about this episode.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Angela Garbes is the author of the now-classic Like a Mother and her new book, which grew out of her New York Magazine cover story (about how the pandemic was disrupting women's lives) went viral and was shared by everyone from Melinda Gates to Elizabeth Warren. Angela didn't want to write another book about motherhood. But during the pandemic, when school and child care center shutdowns left her with nothing to do but mother, she witnessed all her frustrations and racing thoughts about the state of caregiving in America show up in newspapers, on the radio, and in Zoom conversations. During this time, many people came to understand—for the first time or with renewed urgency—that American life is not working for families. Angela's next book, Essential Labor, maintains that mothering is not limited to the people who give birth to children; it is not defined by gender. While “mother” is an important identity for many women who still provide the majority of care to children in America, no one cares for children entirely on their own. The pandemic revealed that mothering is some of the only truly essential work humans do. Without people to care for our children, we are lost. Garbes explores our history of care and how we got to where we are today: a wealthy country with an invaluable work force of women, most of them brown and black, performing our most important work for free or at poverty wages. Jess and Jess have so many questions for Angela- and she has answers....but in typical WeSTAT fashion, there are some incredibly vulnerable moments in this conversation as the three women explore what work is, what mothering is, and how we marry the two.**Angela's book, Essential Labor, goes on sale May 10, 2022. https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Labor-Mothering-Social-Change-ebook/dp/B09C64HQWWThanks to our sponsors and check them out for more information:ART International: https://artherapyinternational.org/Seward Group: https://www.sewardrealtygroup.com/Soul Speak Press: https://www.jessbuchanan.com/coachingSupport the show

Angela Garbes is the author of Like a Mother, an NPR Best Book of the Year and finalist for the Washington State Book Award in Nonfiction. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Cut, New York, Bon Appétit, and featured on NPR's Fresh Air. On this week's episode, she and Laura laugh and cry as they discuss her new book Essential Labor, which explores care work and mothering as social change.

During the pandemic, women here in the United States lost more than five million jobs. Now, of course, many people faced layoffs and have since been re-employed but those who are back to “business as usual” are mostly men. Women became the ones to quit their careers in order to care for their families while schools and daycares around the country shuttered, and many haven't been able to return.The pandemic uncovered a pretty heinous underbelly of our government and systemic structure. It turns out that women are expected to do it all with very little support and the value that we place on working people all but disintegrates if it's not wrapped up in a revenue-producing bow. Which leads me to wonder, what kind of world do we live in if the people who are bearing and raising the next generation of changemakers don't really count? Here on the show with us today is Angela Garbes, author of the brand-new book Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change.  Essential Labor is one of those books that activate your brain in ways you never thought possible, bringing to light a multitude of social injustices faced by mothers and caregivers and especially those of color. Angela asks so many questions about how we value the most essential role on the planet and how much different our society and our culture would be if we supported people in roles of caregiving. From mental health and managing relationships to raising changemakers and advocating for support, freemom is a podcast dedicated to ensuring that every mom feels heard. You can find us on the gram at @freemomcast or on the web at www.freemomcast.com. You can also support the show and help fund production with a sweet little five-dollar donation right here. Thanks for listening!

You're listening to From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy, a food and culture podcast. I'm Alicia Kennedy, a food writer based in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Every week on Wednesdays, I'll be talking to different people in food and culture, about their lives, careers, and how it all fits together and where food comes in.Today, I'm talking to Angela Garbes, the author of Like a Mother: A Feminist Journey Through the Science and Culture of Pregnancy, and the new Essential Labor: Mothering As Social Change. We discussed how her past as a food writer continues to inform her work, what mothers who are creative workers need to thrive—spoiler, it's basically what all workers need to thrive—informal knowledge building, and the significance of having an unapologetic appetite as a woman. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or adjust your settings to receive an email when podcasts are published.Alicia: Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for being here.Angela: Thank you so much for having me, Alicia.Alicia: Can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate?Angela: Sure. I grew up in rural Central Pennsylvania. So—people can't see this—but this is roughly the shape of Pennsylvania, my hand. And I grew up here in what I call the ass crack of Pennsylvania. And it was a very small town, about 4,000 people. And I was one of very few people of color. And my parents are immigrants from the Philippines. You know, I would say that from a very young age, I was, like, born different. But, you know, we have a fairly typical…like, my parents are both medical professionals. So we had a pretty typical, I would say, fairly typical as you could get, middle class upbringing. And as far as what we ate, I look back on it now and I think of it as like a perfect combination of like 50 percent American, quote unquote, American convenience food, like a lot of Hamburger Helper, a lot of Old El Paso soft shell tacos, a lot of Little Caesars Pizza, a lot of Philly cheesesteaks. And then the other half we ate Filipino food: sinigang, adobo, arroz caldo, tinola... and, you know, I remember my dad, like, hacking up pig's feet, you know, I would come downstairs and he'd be cooking up things like that. And so when I look back on it now, I think it was—I mean, I love Filipino food so much. But I also, I mean, I love all kinds of food. And I kind of eat anything. And it's partly, I think, because I was just exposed to a lot of things. But my parents, you know, we lived in this really small town, and they couldn't get all of the ingredients that they wanted to make traditional dishes. But they kind of improvised with what they had. And because they were so committed to cooking Filipino food, sort of against the odds, I would say, you know, we did a lot of…there were not vegetables that [were] available, like you couldn't get okra or green papaya. So we would use zucchini, and, you know, frozen okra to make sinigang. But it was such a way for them to stay connected to their cultures and I feel so grateful to them because what they did was really pass that down to me, from an early age. I was like, Oh, yeah, this is—this is my food, like, this is who I am. And I've never lost that. And I've always loved [it] and, yeah, so it was sort of this wonderful, healthy mix, I think. Alicia: For sure, and, you know, it was so interesting to realize, because I don't think I'd realized it before, that you were a food writer. [Laughs] Until I got into your books, I was like, Wait…And Like a Mother, your first book, starts out like, so…like, such a rich piece of food writing. And I'm like, Wow, now I understand. And then I realized, I'm like, Oh, she is a food writer. So you know, you've come to write your two books about motherhood, but you know, you're also a food writer, and you're writing about food in these books as well. How did you become a food writer?Angela: First of all, thank you for saying this now because I miss food writing. And I think at heart, I am a food writer. And I think it informs, you know, the way I portray sensory detail and physical experiences. But yeah, so the way I became a food writer was sort of, it was really my entry into writing. But it happened…the year was 2005, I think. And you know, I had gone to college and studied creative writing, but like a lot of things, I just thought just because I liked doing something doesn't mean I get to do [it], right?And I think that's a lesson that a lot of writers could learn... [laughs] So I didn't work in these like writing-adjacent dying industries, you know; I worked as an independent bookseller. I worked for a nonprofit poetry press—which is still going, actually I should say, and then I worked as an ad sales rep at an alt-weekly. And, you know, I obviously wish that I was a writer there, but I had no designs on writing. I was, you know, I partying a lot with the ad salespeople, and we were just— I mean, alt-weeklies are— I'm so proud to have started all my writing in my career and adult life there. It was a good time. So I was working in ad sales. And at the time, David Spader and Dan Savage, who are the editorial people, they said, “Hey, do you want to write?” I was leaving to take another job. And they were like, “Hey do you want to submit a sample food writing piece?” And I was like, Me? And they were like, “Yeah,” and I was like, why? And yes, and why. And they both said, “Well, we know you write, we know that you have a writing background” because I was friends with a lot of writers. And they were like, “But you're just always walking around the office, talking about where you went to dinner, talking about what you cooked, talking about what you ate, and like, everyone in the office wants to go out to lunch with you. Everyone wants you to invite them over for dinner.” And I was like, Oh, okay! And so then I just did it as a one-off. And something clicked, where you know, I had been writing fiction, I had been writing bad poetry, but when I started writing about food, I was like, Here's everything that I was thinking about, like food to me—and this is what I think it has in common really with motherhood, and mothering really—is a lens to see the world. And it's a lens into—I mean, the sky's the limit about what you can talk about, right, or what you want to talk about. And so, I mean, when I started, it was like, here write a review of this place, that’s doing mini burgers at happy hour, right? And I started doing restaurant reviews, which was very service-y, which, in some ways I hated, but in some ways I'm grateful for, right—meeting a weekly deadline, and like thinking about your audience and being of use, that's something that I think about all the time still. But um, yeah, I mean, when I started doing it, too, I felt really—I came into it, absolutely, with a chip on my shoulder. I was like, Okay, so I'm Filipina. I never hear about Filipino food. Why do we call places holes in the wall? Right, like, that's racist. Why are we willing to pay $24 for a plate of pasta but people get up in arms when someone wants to charge $14 for pho? You know, I feel like this is where I was coming from. And there wasn't really a lot of space for that, I will say. So there was—I felt a little limited. You know, I think about sometimes, what it would be like to start my career now. I feel like people have created a lot of space. It's not like just the space has opened up. But the scene has changed. I took a forced hiatus from food writing, because of the Great Recession, where they were like, We don't need freelancers anymore. I came back to it, though—what year was this? It would have been 2012; 2013 and 2014, I was pregnant. And I had actually decided, you know, just because I'm good at writing doesn't mean I get to do it. I need to figure out something more practical to do with my life. So I had applied to go to graduate school, actually to get a master's in public health and nutrition. And I wanted to work with immigrant communities to help them have culturally appropriate diets. You know, like, not everyone was just gonna eat kale, which is what people—or shop at the farmers’ market. So yeah, I mean, I took classes at the local community college. I took biology, chemistry, all the s**t that I didn't take as an English major in the mid ’90s. And, yeah, I got accepted, but then when I was pregnant, The Stranger, the alt-weekly, called me and they were like, Hey, we're hiring a food writer, and are you interested in applying? And I was like—this chance is never going to come around. And so I was like, Yeah, I'll take it. And so this was, this is a really long answer, sorry, [this was in] 2014, and I started back, and it was restaurant reviews. But it was also when $15 an hour was going really strong here in Seattle. And I really wanted to explore the labor aspect of that, and what was that like for workers…and then my secret goal, I had a great editor who was Korean-American. And she and I were like, yes, like, every two weeks, there will be a picture of a Brown or Black person to go with the restaurant review. And so it was all this stuff. Like, I felt like I finally got a chance to do what I really wanted to be doing. It was like, moving towards that. And then I wrote this piece about breastfeeding, which, at the time, they asked me to pitch a feature. They're like, You've been here on staff long enough, like what do you want to write about? And I was like, I definitely need to write about breast milk. No one in the editorial room was like, it was just like, it landed like a dead bird and I was like, Well, I kind of want to do this for myself. I felt it was very much an extension of my beat. Because I was like, here I am. I'm thinking about food. I'm producing food. I am food. I'm eating food. And so I wrote this piece and ended up going viral, which is how I got the opportunity to write my first book and I wanted to take a leave of absence because I really wanted to come back to my job. And they said, No, we're not going to hold a job for you. We're just going to piece it out on contract. And so then I kind of had to figure out what I was going to do afterwards. And so then I was like, maybe I'll just try writing books. And that's my very long answer into how I got into food writing, it was like, the right place at the right time talking about it. Because yeah, that was just like, it felt very— It was just my life.Alicia: No, I think that that's such a common—obviously, I talk to a lot of people. Like, why food, how food, how did that happen. And then, a lot of the time, especially with women who wanted to be writers, myself included, we didn't see it as an option necessarily, but when we came to it, everything kind of fell into place, which is what happened for me too. Like, once I started to focus my life on food, everything made sense, because I was doing like, copyediting and working for like, tiny literary magazines, and just thought I was gonna have like, a weird literary career, hopefully. And then I just started cooking one day and just never stopped. And like that, it just changed everything. I'm writing about this right now, actually, like how gender plays into this and whether, you know, the idea of being allowed to love to cook when you're a woman and that sort of thing, which actually, I wanted to ask you about, because there is a fabulous chapter in your new book, Essential Labor, called “Mothering as Encouraging Appetites” and it's so much about our gendered relationship to having an appetite, you know, like whether whether a woman, whether a girl is allowed to have an appetite and how you are actively encouraging your daughters to be okay with their appetites. And it reminded me of when I was a kid and like, I had this friend, who I took dance classes with, and our moms would be like, Oh, you're gonna have to like, date a rich man or something because you eat so much. And then this was like a joke about how like… when I recalled this memory, it's not a joke my mother would make. So I'm assuming it was the other mother, but um, it was just this whole thing.Angela: But it's definitely like an ambient joke, right?Alicia: It’s an ambient joke, yeah. And this chapter certainly reminded me of that. And I, you know, I was really lucky to grow up without anyone ever questioning my appetite in a real way. It was always something to be proud of a little bit, to be a girl who ate a lot. Like it was okay, in my world, at least. And so, yeah, I just wanted to ask, what was what was your inspiration for putting this piece in this book, specifically, and how that worked, because it is about the labor of feeding, but it's also about the labor of, like, self-acceptance and and excavating ourselves from these societal expectations. Angela: I mean, I want to back up a little bit to what you're saying about how when I started writing about food, and when you started writing about food, a lot of things started to make sense, right? And I felt that way, very strongly, like, inside of myself, but it felt like there wasn't quite an audience that was keyed into what I was trying to say. And I will say, at the time that I started writing about food it was very, like, you can have an appetite, and you can write about loving food. And you can be—there was a lot of, you know, like, I think people use the phrase like the, quote, golden era of food blogging. And to me, it was never really that; I didn't feel like those things. I didn't feel represented in that. It was a lot of, you can have a tremendous appetite for baguette. Right? But, um, no diss to baguette, right? But it was very Francophilic. And it was very, like, be fit and be white. So I don't, I just don't really understand. I didn't, I couldn't square having the sort of appetite and having the body that I had with, you know, quote, unquote, mainstream food writing by women.  I want to say that because I think that that's true for a lot of women of color. And I think that that space is thankfully growing. But I think it's because it's an insistence on taking up space, and an insistence on not being pushed to the margins, which is really what the motivation of that chapter was. I felt like there's so many things I have been thinking about in terms of food and that like, I mean, that chapter to me is very much food writing. I was real jazzed when I was writing; I loved being able to describe the flavors, and the Filipino food that I grew up with. And yeah, like, I wish that I could explain, and I write about this, and I was like, I don't know why I never—diet culture never got to me, you know, and I think for a lot of girls, who are lucky enough to come from a family where it is a beautiful thing to have an appetite, the thing that often happens, though, is around like when you're 12 or 13 or 14, then suddenly it's not great to have an appetite, right? Like or it's a thing to be managed, because everything's changing, everything's expanding, right? Everything's growing. Before, when you're eating a lot, you're chubby and you're healthy, and suddenly you become fat. And so I was sort of wrestling with that. And also this feeling that my body just never really fit into the culture, into that small town where I grew up in. And then my body is just larger than my mother's who's a very, very small, Filipina woman. And, you know, Filipina elders are the first people to be like, Eat, eat food, eat so much food, come in here, eat food. And then they'll also be the first people to be like, Wow, you got really fat. [Laughs] It's an interesting thing. So, you know, this chapter was me sort of working out a lot of those feelings and how I did it at a young age, I had just decided, well, I guess—I've never been interested in taming my appetites. And that's not just for food, it's like, for pleasure, for like, you know, I've always wanted another round of drinks, you know, I think I always just decided, like, being a little bit too much, being a little bit fat, that was okay with me, because I don't know how to control my appetite. And I didn't want to; I don't want to say no to that. And then I think there's something really powerful about, you know, again, like my love of Filipino food helped me take up space. And it helped me clarify who I was and how I wanted to take up space in this world. Like, I did not want to quiet that part of my identity to write about food, which also meant that for a while, I didn't write about food, or figured something else out that I would do. And so when I think about that, I just think about—it is about encouraging appetite in my daughter, but it's really, to me this book is—I hope it's relevant to everyone, you know, for me, a lot of this is like how I mothered myself, into the place where I am now and seeing the way I was mothered and the things that I kind of wish I could have had, and I don't fault my mother for this, but she just wasn't, she just wasn't able to do that. But the things that I had to mother myself into were acceptance. And that's like, work that I'm still doing every day. But I think you know, we don't write as—I don't hear as much about people who are trying to manage that, and who are trying to take up space, but who still struggle with feeling like, I wish I looked a certain way, even though I'm so proud of being who I am. It's really complicated. So yeah, I mean, appetite and identity and food. And all of that has, it's a very tangled web, in my mind. So this was kind of my attempt to, you know, just sort of unpack and understand.Alicia: Right, no, and I loved it, because I do think…as women, especially when we're writing about appetite, we're writing about diet culture, and you very rarely hear from someone who makes the decision to just not ever decide to tame the appetite, you know, and what that means and what that looks like, and that's why I thought this chapter was really important, because of that, because for me, you know, yeah, I was like, Oh, I see myself, I recognize myself in this because, yeah, I love to eat, I've always loved to eat, and I'm never not going to eat a lot…[Laughs]Angela: No, and that's one of the things that I love about your work is that I feel like you are unapologetic in your appetite and in your consumption. But you also are deeply thoughtful about it, like these things are like–they are nuanced. Do you know what I mean? And you'd never, I just feel like we're not allowed—we're supposed to not have an appetite. We're supposed to have an appetite, but somehow pretend that we don't have an appetite, or, I don't know, like, really, I mean, I think also like, when I am indulging my appetite, I feel like an animal. I feel I'm no different than an animal. I'm a human animal. And I just think like, we're not encouraged to do that as women, we're not encouraged to just fully inhabit ourselves. I mean, I think all people but especially women. And so I mean, I love seeing people out there doing [it], we are out here, you know. [Laughs] And this is my like, you know, a little bit of my stake in the ground, I'm planting a flag, you know, there would be no mistake—Alicia: Well, to talk about the animal aspect of food and appetite and also being a mother, which is that you wrote, obviously, the piece that went viral is about breastfeeding. My only experience in thinking about this, of course, because I'm not a mother, is the way vegans or vegetarians write about the ways in which breastfeeding changes their relationship to dairy, like that's a really common thing. But I wanted to ask how that topic and writing about that topic and that topic changing the trajectory of your work, how did that change your relationship to food or food production, if it did?Angela: Yeah, totally. First of all, I wish that you had been asking me these questions when my first book came out because like, I love how you're like, “It's really common for vegans to talk about, you know, dairy and how breastfeeding changed their relationship to it.” And I was like, I'm not aware of that, like, literature…[Laughter] And so I think it's kind of, just that question is really exciting to me. And I wish that there was more conversation around that. Part of writing, you know, this article about breastfeeding was me being like, why do we drink the milk of a cow? Right? Why is that? Like, that's strange, right? Like, it's strange. And why have we created an entire industry around this? And like, Why do, when we look at a food plate, dairy has a very large section? And that's because of the dairy lobby, right? That's not because of our innate biological needs as human beings, right? So, yeah, I mean, how I thought about food production, 100%. This, you know, sort of lays the path for so many things that I'm thinking about. It’s work, you know, this is what your body—this is what female bodies are built to do, right? That's just true. This is what sets us apart as mammalians, you know, like, we produce milk to feed our young, but I just went into it so naive, like, it was a job. You know, I was spending the eight plus hours feeding—eight plus hours that I was like, am I supposed to be being productive? Like I'm being productive, like I'm keeping, I'm doing nothing less than keeping a human alive. I'm not being paid to do this. I'm not being given time. I'm like, in a weird office with a noisy radiator, you know, with another woman—our breasts out, just like pumping. Right? So it made me think about time and how we value time. And it also like, again, like this was all happening when I was writing about food. And there was the fight for a minimum wage of $15 an hour. And my God, how that was so polarizing, and how people just showed their whole asses about how they don't think the workers are valuable or deserving of this thing. And so I think, you know, there was the labor aspect of it that really came into play for me, that made me think about—I grew up saying grace, because I grew up Catholic, right? And when we remember to say grace, my girls do it with my parents. So when we remember to say grace at our house, we say, you know, thank you to the people who grew this food, who picked the food, who you know transported the food, who prepared the food. So I think now this sort of supply chain of food and how it is produced is something that's always top of mind and like, how do you negotiate having like an ethical relationship to that? I know this is stuff that you have thought about. This is stuff that really came to the forefront, right? And then also balancing that economically because, you know, breastfeeding is, in a country that does not give paid leave, it’s an economic privilege to be able to do that. And then people who cannot breastfeed, there's very little money put into understanding that and seeing is that, oftentimes people feel like that's a failure on their part, not as opposed to like, is it a signal about something about the health of the mother, right? Could we be—this is sort of going off a little tangent, but I think that there's a lot of that kind of stuff, like in the labor of it, and how we value women's bodies. And also just like the general chain of food production, for sure. It 100% made me think of all of those things. And so now I'm always thinking about, someone made this food, right? Someone produced this food in some way, a being—a living thing, whether it is a plant or an animal, or a person. Yeah, it’s just, I mean mothering and becoming a mother really reframed everything for me. You know, it is that care that my body couldn't help but do, you know, like my body did. And then suddenly, I felt like, it's a very beautiful thing to be able to do this. It's a very important thing. It was very meaningful to me. It was also that I was chained to a chair and chained to a person. And so yeah, I mean, that's what—that's where I'll leave it. That’s another long answer. [Laughter]Alicia: No, no…have you read the book To Write As If Already Dead by Kate Zambreno? It came out last year, I think you'll like it. She writes a lot about the body and like, I think it has a lot of parallels to your work. But it's also, you know, just more personal I guess, but she writes about having her first kid and then getting pregnant and then and like, amidst the pandemic, not being treated like a human being but a vessel and seeing the labor of the people bringing…anyway, I think you'll like the book. [Laughs] But you know, and there are so many parallels in both Like a Mother and Essential Labor to what I've been thinking about in food: formal versus informal knowledge, institutions versus communities, individual versus systemic, the political role of care…And so I wanted to ask how the understanding of the significance of something like informal knowledge building when it comes to motherhood affected your perspective on, you know, other subjects as you've said. Motherhood changed your whole lens on the world, but specifically figuring out where, how to learn from community and informal knowledge rather than constantly just taking the word of the institutions.Angela: Yeah, you know I mean, motherhood was a big part of that. But I would say that it was all, I don't know, I just feel like my whole life is learning. And I love that. And that's one of the things that I love about my life. I definitely feel like when I arrived at college—so again, I came from a very, very small town in Pennsylvania. And I didn't know about a lot of things in the world, you know, and I was like, I'm gonna go to New York City. I went to Barnard College, right? Like, I arrived there. And everyone there was like, I went to Milton Academy. I went to, you know, I went to Stuyvesant High, and I was like, like, Googling like, “what are the regents exams,” right? Like, I was like that. And I felt so out of place. Y’know what I mean, like, I felt unprepared. And I felt very self-conscious in a way about that. And I also feel like I came into, like a formal racial consciousness, right, and class consciousness. Like, I mean, when I was at Barnard was when I was like, Oh, this is how we re-create a ruling class, right? Like, what I'm saying is that I had a lot of informal knowledge. And a lot of wisdom growing up, you know, that I kind of trusted and knew. I was always like, why are we Catholic? So, is colonialism…like, what would we have been if we weren't Catholic? And my parents were like, God will provide…like, what are you talking about? Why are we asking these questions, right? And so I've always had it in me to like, question the institution, right, unfortunately, for my parents, and then our family institution for many years. So I came to college, and then I was like, Oh, it's also reckoning with for many, many years, my definition of success was, you know, grammar, spelling, right? Like, all of that s**t, which is like, those are just rules that some guy made up, right? Like coming into this and wanting to succeed on terms, you know, set by white people, being legible to white people, and being legible to institutions, which I will not deny, like, that has served me well. And this sort of like, ability to kind of code-switch in a way that I sometimes can't even tell the difference. Like, that's just been a part of my life, right? And one of the things, though, that happened is coming into consciousness as an adult, and just realizing like, Oh, no, like, I was privileged enough to, like, be educated in these institutions to figure out how to slip into these places. And then to realize, like, no, this doesn't, this doesn't speak to me. It's actually not my vibe, right? Like, but what is your vibe, then? So you have to kind of go and like, figure it out. And I felt sort of free in that, you know, when I always felt really drawn to creative people, but I was never encouraged to, you know, pursue the arts or to pursue creativite work, or my parents were supportive, but they don't really understand what I do. I think to this day, still, it's a little bit confusing to them. All of this to say that one of the other, before motherhood, one of the big things, and I really need to shout out is my spouse Will, who [when] I met, he was a community organizer. He's now a labor organizer. And there was just something about, we are so different, but when we met, there was a shared values. There was a belief in, everyone's story is important. You know, he was all about, his thing was, people come up, and they speak their truth to power. And that's when I realized, like, Oh, yes, like our lived experiences, our informal knowledge, when collected, just because it's not in a book, just because it's not what's reported, like, it is so real, and it is so powerful. And he really, like his work helped me see that. And I feel like that was kind of the start for me of being like, I want to take what I'm doing, and I want to put it in service of something else. And I want it to be a harnessing of collective energy and community knowledge. And then mothering with the whole sort of like, ask your doctor even though no one has, no one's done any studies on this and everything that's going on was something someone said in 1890, right, no one’s challenged this wisdom. Meanwhile, the greatest wisdom that came from birthing and mothering came from midwives and female elders. And that's informal knowledge that was never put in a book, y'know, doctors, when we created medicine, when people invented—when white men invented medicine, they discredited the experience of midwives. And at the turn of the 20th century in America, 50% of babies were born with midwives, who are mostly immigrants and Black women, right? This was very much a working class woman's job. So I mean, this is just my way of saying I feel like my whole life has been leading to this moment, and motherhood, sort of refined that lens, a place to put all of these things, but it's been multiple steps along the way, and it's been sort of painful. You know what I mean? Like feeling like, Oh, I wish I had known this earlier. But then realizing like, Oh, like, but I know this now. And I think there are many people who share these values and who want to put their faith in more informal knowledge, and who don't trust institutions, but don't really know how, you know what I mean? And I feel like that's a journey, like we're all learning. And I feel like, I don't know…I'm old enough to remember when we weren't supposed to know everything. I feel like now there's this pressure to have some sort of expertise in everything. And I'm like, I still don't know what the f**k I'm doing. Like, everything I'm doing is learning, and that's what's fun. That's part of why I like being a writer is just doing homework or whatever.Alicia: That's so interesting. Yeah, I feel like this is something I've been thinking about a lot, is there is this kind of—you're not supposed to ask questions. You're not supposed to say “I don't know,” you're supposed to, we're all supposed to have sort of absorbed some sort of bastion of knowledge that we might not even know exists about things that we've never thought about before. But like, you're just not allowed to not know things anymore, you're not allowed to be learning. I don't know. It's very weird. I mean, that's more social media than anything else. But, because I'm always interested in this. So you went to college in New York? How did you come to live in Seattle?Angela: So when I was in college, my parents—long story short, they had a midlife crisis. And my dad became very disillusioned by managed healthcare. This was 1997, by the way. And so they just decided to make a huge change. Like, my dad was miserable, and my mom was miserable; they're miserable together. And so they decided to start over, and they moved to Washington State. And I was in college, and I was just like, I need to get out of New York. So I was like, okay, and now they seem to be doing better, so I'm gonna go spend a summer with them. And the Pacific Northwest in the summer is heaven, it's so beautiful. And I was like, oh, I’ll like, come out here after I graduate, and I'll stay for a couple months, and then I'll go back and get a job in publishing as an editorial assistant. And that was 1999. And then I just never left. You know, I spent many years comparing it to the East Coast. And then I just was like, it's easier here. And I used to feel some sort of shame around that. But um, I don't know, it's just more laid back. I feel really—I've written about this—I just don't, I don't want to say that I'm not ambitious. But it's just like, there's ladders that you climb, there's like places you could try to put yourself into institutions, I guess. And I'm just really not about the hustle. I feel like I work really hard and I'm really not trying to work harder. Like, I like my little life. Before I had a chance to, you know, publish books, having a job as a staff writer at an alt-weekly, it was like—that was great. Like, you know, I feel like it's easier to do, I don't know, community building can be—I don't want to generalize too much. I just like being in a city. It's a young city. It's a weird city, in some ways. It's changing. But um, yeah, but I like the West Coast. I think I'm—Alicia: I'm always interested in how people leave New York, because obviously, I'm from Long Island, but I spent a lot of time in New York City. And so then, because I left in 2019, but like, didn't really think about it, about what I was doing. So I'm always like, What was the choice? What were the choices that led you away from New York? [Laughter]Angela: I think it was the thought that I would come back. And I think there's always a little bit of like—I couldn't go back. You know, like, it's all the same, like things are there. They're not going away. But New York also still has the same ugly, modern, new high rise weird, like townhome architecture that we get here in Seattle. It's not, you know, not to be I mean. I went to college in New York from ‘95 to ‘99. And, you know, I go back now and I'm like, This is so different. I was like, you know, it wasn't even like dirty New York, y'know. But yeah, I think I just like being a little bit outside things. How was it for you? Like, do you feel like returning or do you feel like you're home? Or do you kind of feel like it's all open?Alicia: I would prefer to stay here in San Juan ’cause it's an easier life, like you're saying, and I talked to Jami Attenberg about moving from New York to New Orleans. And same thing. It's like, it's just easier, and for me, especially as a food writer, I feel like it gives me a lot more to talk about and I don't feel like I have to go to the same restaurants as everybody. And like, obviously, I don't even think I could move back until everything goes differently with the housing situation. Like it's just such—I mean, it's happening everywhere. But I'm just like watching on Twitter, and everyone is like, my landlord just raised my rent $700, $1,200. And I'm like, I'm never going back. I can never go back. But I mean, we have that problem here, too, because it's become like a tax haven. So there's like, all the real estate is absolutely mind-boggling. And like the daughter-in-law of the governor is sort of instrumental in it, which seems like a problem, so— [Laughter]But, yeah, so everywhere has its challenges. But yeah, I feel really good. You know, having gotten sort of away from New York. You know, when I left New York, I was bartending and writing. And here, now I just have a newsletter. So, I'm working a lot less hard. [Laughs]Angela: I mean, I think there's something to be said to of space—physical space. I have a house, you know what I mean, to have physical space, which is also, it's not necessary, but it does lead to mental space. You know what I mean, things feel more expansive here in a way that like, I can go on a long walk, the mountains are 45 minutes that way—wait, sorry, going West. Sorry, the East actually—But I think there's just something there where I feel. I don't know. I just—there's something here where I just feel like I can be myself in a way that—I'm less like, thinking about myself in the context of other people and other things, like I could just sort of be in an easy—Alicia: Exactly, no, no. And that's really key. Obviously, like I'm homesick a lot. But I, then I just go back, you know. And then I'm like, I'm sick of this. Goodbye. [Laughter]But also, to get back to your book, in Essential Labor, you talk about the flattening of creative identity that came through being a mother in the pandemic, do you think that it is possible to change how work and caregiving are structured and perceived in the U.S.? And specifically, what do you think mothers who are creative workers, thus doing work that's kind of already devalued in our society, what is really needed to thrive?Angela: That's a great question. I do think it's possible. I have to think it's possible, because—I'm glad that your question wasn't, do you, like, do you hope that this is, you know, like, I find it hard to be, I find it hard to be hopeful about it in this moment. But I mean, I wouldn't have written this book if I didn't think it was possible. And, you know, maybe it will take a very long time. But I think we are due for, I mean, the United States has never reckoned with all of its original sins, right. But one of them, you know, one of the biggest ones at this point, that's like a foundation to it is that care work doesn't matter and has no financial value. So I think, you know, we had these moments, there was the advanced check, tax child credit. And then also, when we were doing direct stimulus payments, that was not specifically like, here's pay for mothering and care work. But, here's pay for keeping yourself alive and keeping people alive, which is what care work is. So I think that people are—that conversation is happening, I think, you know, part of writing this book was, there were all these, there were so many people who were suddenly awake to, like the child care crisis is a pre-pandemic problem, right? Like that childcare workers are three times more likely to live in poverty. The fact that until your child is age 6, in the United States, like you're on your own, to figure all of that out, and suddenly a lot of white affluent women, to generalize, were realizing that, you know, when care structures fall apart, when your nanny and childcare and babysitters go away — they are left to do all of this work. And that to be a woman in America is to be defined by a condition of servitude. And that was a hard f*****g lesson. And people reacted in a way that they were rightfully so, really angry. And part of writing this book was, I was like, this is going to go away, right? Like when schools reopen, people are gonna think we solved the childcare crisis, right? When things are not inconvenient, when people can start outsourcing that care, and we're gonna lose that momentum. And so to a certain extent, like, why I also believe it's possible is because I know that for myself, and for other people, like, I will never shut up about this. This is something that is foundational and essential to our country and how it functions and until we properly value that, we're going to have an inhumane and dysfunctional society. So yes, I think it's possible. In this particular moment, I feel that it's a much longer fight, and then it's going to be a much harder fight. I don't want it to be a fight, but that's that's where I am on that. You know, and in terms of mothers who are doing creative work, I mean, I just think of all people doing creative work again, like, care is an issue that, obviously, yes, I'm writing about mothering but like, care is the work of being a human being, you know, needfulness is the state of being a human being. And so, you know, if I'm just like, allowed to say what I would like to do is like, we should just give people money. We live in a very rich country, there is enough money to do this. If we gave people a universal basic income, a guaranteed adequate income, which is not a new idea—you know, people were working on this, the National Welfare Rights Organization was doing this; they came close to getting it under Nixon. If we paid people money, if we gave people money and guaranteed a floor of what a decent life is in America, people could be creative. You know, people could do their creative work, people could mother, people could still be really f*****g ambitious and try to get a six-figure job, like six-figure salary job, like, they could still do that. You know, and I think that that's, you know, we made up money. [Laughter] We can, like, if we can make up a new system, you know, that, that gives people—you know, I did this interview for this the future of things, it was like the future of work. And I was talking about this, and the producer was like, So in your world, when you like, meet for drinks with your friends on Friday, and someone asks you how work is doing and you're like, well, Tommy's like, struggling with potty training. And I was like, No, dude, like, in my world, you meet your friends for drinks on Friday, and they're like, how are you? Like we don’t talk about work—we just talk about like, what are you doin’? Right? And so I think that, yeah, like, I think so what we need to do is like, guarantee—I mean maybe it's not just an adequate income or guaranteed income, maybe it's just like, health care, where you like, leave, like, they need people need to, like be able to live a dignified life, that doesn't involve work, you know, that is like, not defined by work that just that allows them to exist. That's what people need. And that's not just mothers, and not just mothers who do creative work that we need that. We need that. I mean, I think it's really like for me; it's for everyone.Alicia: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I mean, these are all the same answers I give when people are like, How do we fix the food system? And it's like, you have to make sure people have a good life. And then, that they don't have to work two or three jobs just to eat crap, and that they get to cook with, I mean, if they want to [they can] eat whatever they want, but like, you know, you get the option to cook, you know. Right now, it's like, so much of that moment, I guess when you started writing about food, that moment of like, go to the farmers’ market and eat kale and everything will be fine. It really stopped short of talking about poverty, it stopped short of talking about the systemic, obviously, disadvantages. It's like, some people won't be able to do this—sad for them. And then like, moving on—Angela: Yeah, look, we don't talk about how poverty is a condition we have created —it's an unnatural condition. We made this, right? And there's so much, I mean, also like the farmers’ market thing. Like, what is it, maybe now it's higher, but it's something like 6 or 12 percent of people get their produce from a farmers’ market here. I mean, so not even like, forget, like how much money you can spend. It's just such a small—you're not tackling the system. And that's not to say they're not great and you should keep money in local economies. Like I think it's all of those things. But yeah, we're not even getting to that. And we're not talking about the profound way that we assign morality to food, like people who are poor make bad choices about food. Those are choices created by poverty and scarcity. Like, anyway, this is not like a…I think you and I are on the same page about this. I think it's like the conversations that we have about food are so not the conversations we need to read. Right, like we spend a lot of time on that. And I think the same is true for care and mothering, right? It is an issue that affects everyone. And it is an issue, it is systemic, like we're talking about, I think we're both talking about giving people a decent life, which doesn't—we've come so far from that, that it seems really radical to be like, let's just, you know, take it back a step. You know, like, it'd be like—money is made up, are you with me? Like, that seems really destabilizing to people, but it's just a truth. And I think like we just drifted so far from it, that it's really, it's discouraging.Alicia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm hopeful, I think that now people are more, even if it's just jokes or memes on social media, people are more willing to say— people are more willing to say that the all of this is bizarre. Like, even if it's just—today, we're talking on Tax Day, which is—I feel like vomiting because I still haven't done mine. But the idea that people are now talking about, why does the government let it be so difficult and complicated when they know how much we owe because they have the documentation and, you know, what are we actually even paying for? Like, I think it's important that we have a forum now for those like people to have that conversation, even if it's a joke, most of the time.Angela: One of my favorite things that I've seen recently is like, I mean, I saw it on Instagram, but it was a tweet, you know, that whole thing. But it was like, you know, humans really could have had stargazing and like pottery making and drumming, and now we have credit scores, and like, you know, but this idea that, like, we could just be f*****g living. Now it's like, we need money we need like, I just, ugh—Alicia: Yeah, we do need a general strike, and to not pay anything, not pay our taxes, not pay our student loans, not pay rent, just like let's stop and get this s**t sorted out before we keep moving.Angela: Yeah, I mean it’s really…we shouldn't be privatizing human rights. We could have this conversation, like in a circle for like, a few days, and it would be great but we should probably move on… [Laughter]Alicia: No, no, no, of course. No, well I just wanted to ask you what are the other things you're thinking about that you want to write about? I do love that you characterize being a writer is ongoing learning, you know? So what are you learning about these days?Angela: I'm learning about—so again, since I started as a food writer, the fact that I've now written two books on motherhood and mothering seems like a great surprise in my life. I mean, I think it's very—it's been great for me. But I mean, this is really just one aspect of my identity. But right now, the things that I'm really drawn to are not privileging one kind of care. I mean, I think care is a conversation we need to continue to have. And so I want to explore care. Like, so I've been thinking about it in terms of, you know, raising young children, but what is it like to have everything from like, you know, how do we encourage people who are not parents to have meaningful relationships with the youth and the elders? Right, like elder care, disability care. And then also, how do we build, one of the things that we lack, our institutions don't care about people; care is not a value that's at the center of institutions. And so I'm interested in exploring, how might we make that happen? And so care in general, an expansive and inclusive and surprising view of care, is one of the things that I'm thinking a lot about.I'm thinking a lot about the concept of service. Service, to me, is very clarifying. I think my work as a writer is about learning. But what gives me meaning is that it is definitely of service to people. And that's one of the things that I cherish about the feedback that I've gotten from people. And so this idea of service, and how we can encourage that, and people are exploring that.And then the other thing that I'm really into is middle age. You know, I'm about to be 45. I never—and I don't mean this in a fatalistic way, but I just never really imagined myself at this age, and realizing that my imagination really was pretty short. And I feel like I have to believe and I do believe that, you know, some of my most interesting transformations are still ahead of me. And so there's really not a literature of middle age for women, there's like some menopause-y stuff. But the choices that we make, and I don't know, there's like in the pandemic, too, I've done a lot of self work and therapy. But I've also, like—I haven't been able to escape myself, even though I've tried very hard through various attempts and substances. But I feel like, I don't know, if I'm about to be 45, like I said, I just feel like I don't feel confused about who I am. And I really like that. And I'm kind of curious, like, where that goes. Yeah, so those are the things I'm thinking.Alicia: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today. Angela: Yeah, of course. Thank you.Alicia: Thanks so much to everyone for listening to this week's edition of From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy. Read more at www.aliciakennedy.news. Or follow me on Instagram, @aliciadkennedy, or on Twitter at @aliciakennedy. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe

In a perfect world, the specter of that perfect, white, thin, cishet mom wouldn’t be there at all. We wouldn’t be tasked with defining ourselves against that ideal because she wouldn’t be the biggest thing in the room. You’re listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. Today I’m bringing back Sara Louise Petersen for another installment of momfluencer talk. Sara is a writer based in New Hampshire, and currently working on a book called Momfluenced. She came on a few weeks ago and you folks had a ton to say about that episode! Hearing your thoughts and questions made us realize there is a lot more to discuss here. This might become a new subgenre of the Burnt Toast podcast.If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us in your podcast player! And subscribe to the Burnt Toast newsletter for episode transcripts, reported essays, and more.Also! I’ll write more about this in a newsletter soon, but I’m very thrilled to announce that I’ve started a Burnt Toast Giving Circle with The States Project. We will be raising money to help flip a state legislature Democratic this November because radical right wing state governments are dismantling free and fair elections in swing states, suppressing the right to vote, denying people quality, affordable healthcare and eradicating our right to choose. But we can take those states back! And early money matters. I’d love if you could make a donation of any size; Burnt Toast will match the first $1000 we raise. We’ll talk soon about which state to support and the issues on the table. Stay tuned! And: The brilliant folks behind the Sunny Side Up Podcast spent this episode talking about Instagram and how we feed kids, inspired by this essay of mine. Great companion listen to today’s Instagram deep dive! Episode 30 TranscriptVirginiaSo today we want to talk about whether it is possible for momfluencer culture to diversify, and to represent different types of moms. And w e’re also asking: Should that even be the goal? SaraThere totally is room to follow moms that do not subscribe to cishet, white, normative, nuclear family ideal. So many moms have disrupted that narrative and have used their platforms in really cool, energizing ways to form really needed communities online. They have a different vibe than the stereotypical beachy waves, white momfluencer, the the type that we were talking about in our last episode. It feels like a totally different world.VirginiaI want to read this really great email I got from a listener after your episode because she is articulating the problem in a way that I hadn’t quite thought about before. So this is from Tori, and she writes: I noticed that at the beginning of this missive you mentioned that you and Sara are both cis, straight moms with varying levels of thin privilege, who gave birth, and at the end, you say that the next “phase” is seeing non-thin, non-white, non-straight, non-cisgender moms shifting the narrative. That struck a nerve with me. I’m a white, cis, lesbian with a non-binary partner (she gave birth to our child.) Our kid is four and does not call either of her parents mom, in my partner’s case, because that word is feminine, and my partner is transmasculine. And in my case, mostly because even as a femme lesbian, I didn’t want to embody the culture of motherhood that has been pretty toxic in my life and it didn’t feel right for me. I read today’s newsletter with some distance, because I have found that even engaging with these momfluencers by critiquing them gives them too much space in my brain. I feel lucky that I do not generally feel mom guilt. I do not buy into most of the cultural pressures that straight, white moms often struggle with. And I think that’s because I had a way out from the beginning. The queer parents I know just don’t even talk about it and we don’t compare ourselves. We talk about the absurd things our kids do, and arguments with our partners, and we share gossip about queer celebrities, but we do not really participate in this aspirational stuff. I am grateful to queer people for offering that pathway out of straight, white mom culture, and also from the fatphobia of that culture. Many lesbians are fat and I’m grateful to my people for showing me how to love other women’s interesting bodies as I learn to love my own. I guess I just want to gently suggest that all of this is optional. White moms—because I do think this is a whiteness problem—can stop putting their eyeballs on the momfluencers. I know that as a cultural critic, they’re available for you to talk about since Instagram is a visual medium, etc. And there’s comments and captions to analyze. But even the critique feels like adding fuel to the fire. I just want to offer up that focusing on people who do things differently (the ones you spoke about at the end of your conversation) is an even more powerful way of shifting around the way we talk about bodies. As a journalist, I’m sure you’ve engaged with the concept of de-platforming. And this is sort of a mini version of that. You have influence yourself and lifting up the alternatives rather than continuing to reinforce white dominant culture, even by picking it apart, is especially effective. We’re out here doing it differently and a whole other parent culture is possible.Tori, thank you. Reading this, I had a moment of feeling like, oh, right, it is optional. It is easy to get just sucked into feeling like this is the paradigm we’re in. SaraI also loved that email. It reminded me of a conversation I had with Rebekah Taussig, who wrote a book called Sitting Pretty. We were talking about this “ideal mother” that we’re all defining ourselves against or aligning ourselves with or comparing ourselves to. She said, in a perfect world, the specter of that perfect, white, cishet mom wouldn’t be there at all. We wouldn’t be tasked with defining ourselves against or in opposition to that ideal because she wouldn’t be the biggest thing in the room. There would be freedom to define our own parenting journeys, separate from the fetters of that looming ideal. That whole notion feels so radical to me because the ideal, white, cishet mom does loom so large in our culture.For me, I think it is still valuable to dissect where this ideal is coming from and to look at who has the power in this narrative. Where is the power coming from? You can’t look at any of this without examining whiteness, first and foremost. I think we have to keep asking ourselves how are we approaching this cultural criticism? Which voices are we centering? VirginiaFor those of us who are white moms and who do check more of those boxes, this is also our work to do, to hold the other privileged white moms accountable. We can’t completely eradicate whiteness from motherhood—or maybe that is what we should be doing, but that feels very difficult. So as we consider the process of doing that, can we ask more of our fellow white moms? Can we ask each other to reckon with these biases and to name these problems? That’s not work I want to ask parents with marginalization to do. It’s not their job to come in and fix the white moms. And Sara and I are the white moms, so we have to be doing this work. But also, I’m really here for the idea of how do we make space for these other voices? SaraThe popular narrative about how we talked about momfluencer culture is “Oh, I’m just sick of comparing myself to the perfect mom in her perfect house.” That is a really small concern in the grand scheme of things. A lot of marginalized moms, like, they don’t give a s**t. Their biggest concern is not having a kitchen that matches up to momfluencer standards. So, there is a way that white moms do perpetuate the ideal of whiteness, in holding ourselves to those standards and prioritizing those standards as worthy of our emotional and mental energy.VirginiaEven in prioritizing our ability to separate from those standards. There’s a strong parallel here with what we see in the fat community versus the “body positive” community. “Body positivity” has become reduced to this project of loving your body. Aubrey Gordon writes about this so well: loving your body doesn’t do s**t for fat rights. It doesn’t do s**t for narrowing the pay gap or making clothing more accessible or stopping discrimination on airplanes. Body positivity doesn’t actually address these larger systemic ways that fatphobia is baked into our culture. This is a perpetual problem of whiteness and of white women, that we take what is really this larger systemic  issue and we make it all about like ourselves and our feelings. How does her clean kitchen make me feel? I feel like a bad mom. That’s not what it’s about at all.SaraTotally. That’s a classic tenet of specifically white feminism. When you’re looking at intersectional feminism, you’re looking at the the the community that is suffering the most and the most marginalized and working up to concerns about the clean countertops. Like, that’s not where we start. VirginiaWe’ll do a quick shout out here for Angela Garbes’ new book Essential Labor. She articulates the problems with white motherhood so well, and I think it’s a must read for all white moms. I had a lot of moments reading that of looking in a mirror in an uncomfortable but necessary way.Sara I also love her first book Like A Mother. Best book on pregnancy I’ve ever read. She looks at pregnancy from all different angles and it’s a beautiful, beautiful book.I’m also going to plug Koa Beck’s White Feminism. It was absolutely earth-shattering for me in terms of dismantling everything I thought I knew about feminism. VirginiaOkay, so we are going to talk about some case studies like we did last time, and this time, we really are focusing on momfluencers who are not in that traditional skinny-white-mom box at all. SaraSo should we start with Nabela Noor?VirginiaShe’s not technically a full momfluencer yet because she’s pregnant with her first child. She comes from the world of YouTube beauty influencers. I did not know about her until she wrote a children’s book this year called Beautifully Me, which I love. I actually interviewed Nabela on the @Parents Instagram a few months ago. And my younger daughter is obsessed with Beautifully Me. It’s a great kid’s book. (I also talked about it here.) And yet, there is also this continual emphasis on the importance of beauty, both in the book and in Nabela’s work. Her aesthetic on Instagram is all neutrals. Everything in her house is white and brass handles and beautiful flower arrangements. There’s a lot of emphasis on her look and her makeup. There’s this tension between the way she is challenging norms—but then there is some upholding.SaraI’m looking at her feed, and just the aesthetic tropes—she’s checking all the boxes. The all white everything, interior design-wise. The caressing her pregnant stomach, with a beautiful dress. Hyper-feminine imagery. The ultrasound photos, the very joyful, domestic Goddess Mother-vibe.But I wonder how fair or even productive it is to critique someone for adhering to those norms when she didn’t create them. It feels like critiquing a fish for swimming in the wrong water or something. Do you know what I mean? It’s tricky. What do you think?VirginiaI see that. The belly caressing in particular really moved me because she started caressing her belly like that when she was, like, nine weeks pregnant. To see this woman, who has a belly, caressing her belly without apology with so much joy and reverence for it, at a time when there’s often still a lot of negativity about the belly. We’re conditioned not to really celebrate the bump until it’s like the perfect basketball bump on your tiny body. And she’s never gonna have that perfect basketball bump on a tiny body. That’s not how she’s built. There was something very radical and moving to me to see her being so proud of that. That does feel powerful for me in terms of representation of pregnancy that doesn’t look like the way we’re told pregnancy needs to look. And yet, it does unsettle me to then see her grasping at holding up every other possible standard of perfect pregnancy. It’s like she’s only allowed one out or something.SaraYeah, that’s so interesting. Mia O’Malley went viral for sharing her own pregnancy photos and she wrote an essay accompanying them. This was, I think, three-ish years ago, and she still gets comments and emails from other moms saying they never even considered taking pregnancy photos because they had so internalized that this was a thin person thing to do. Like the basketball bump—if you don’t have that, your pregnancy is not worth celebrating or beautiful or whatever. The mere fact of representation is really powerful.VirginiaAnd for someone who reaches such a wide audience who haven’t reconsidered their feelings on fatness or beauty, she is asking them to do that. SaraYeah. If a mom disrupts any part of the stereotypical ideal—like in this case she’s disrupting thinness and whiteness—that’s a net positive.VirginiaYes, I agree. But I do think of what Tori was talking about in her email. Nabela is not opting out. She’s opting all the way in and saying, “I belong in this room.” SaraWell, and I think back to what you were saying before. The responsibility and the onus should be on white moms, with the most privilege, for them to opt out.VirginiaI agree with you. I think if anyone’s going to be making the big momfluencer bucks off the endorsement deals, I’m glad it’s Nabela. What else do we want to say about Mia? SaraIn addition to her main feed, she has a baby wearing feed. She became a babywearing consultant because when she was pregnant and when she had her newborn, every time she was shopping for a baby swing or a baby wrap, it was modeled on a thin model. Did you ever baby wear?VirginiaI was really uncomfortable babywearing and size was definitely a factor in that. SaraRight. I didn’t babywear until my third baby because I was just generally overwhelmed. Those wraps are like a mile long. They’re hard no matter what kind of body you have. But to have a body that’s never represented or to not have tutorials that speak to your particular shape is a real barrier to entry. It’s like, is this even going to work? Is it even going to be safe? VirginiaYeah, and I do have one fat friend who like came over with her Moby Wrap and helped me figure it out. That was very helpful, but I remember envying mothers for whom it felt effortless. It did not feel effortless for me, ever.  We’re making babywearing into something that you’re supposed to innately know and understand at a time when your body is a complete stranger to you.SaraAnd the baby’s a complete stranger!VirginiaThey’re very small and squishy. It’s very disorienting. SaraThere are a ton of fat moms and plus size moms who are creating networks of healthcare providers who don’t have anti-fat bias. This world of momfluencing is worlds away from the one we talked about last week. VirginiaThat is the real potential and promise of mom influencers, to help break down barriers and create communities that can share information. PlusMommy is another one who’s awesome in this space. She does really great advocacy, helping moms know what questions to ask at prenatal appointments. She also talks a lot about being a fat mom going to Disney World or being a fat mom at the playground. Our physical spaces are not built for larger bodies very often, and particularly our parenting spaces. SaraI want to bring up Andrea Landry, who runs the account Indigenous motherhood. She points out that indigenous mothers have always created their own communities, calling each other and saying, “don’t go to this doctor, you’re gonna face discrimination and racism at this practice.” But since Instagram, that community-building has a way broader-reaching impact.And in terms of looking at issues that maybe white moms should be focusing our attention on more than clean countertops, Andrea and I were talking about the huge amount of Indigenous children that are placed in foster care. They are removed from Indigenous communities, which is further colonizing these communities and preventing them from learning their traditions and languages. She was saying that even up until the early 2000s, Indigenous women were still experiencing forced sterilization. In Saskatchewan, they would wake up from C-sections having had hysterectomies without their consent. These things are still happening. It’s not helping us to stay in our bubble and it’s certainly not helping the greater motherhood cause.VirginiaShould we talk about disabled motherhood? SaraI mentioned Rebekah Taussig. She has really educated me on the structural issues impacting disabled moms that non-disabled moms are probably not aware of. In 30 states there are still discriminatory laws that mandate that custody can be removed from a disabled Mom on the basis of their disability. Like, not having the burden of proving that there was neglect or child endangerment or abuse. Just on the basis of the disability. VirginiaWow, this is a great country. I’m really proud.SaraIt’s so f*****g bad! It’s bad for all moms, but it is so much f*****g worse for marginalized moms. Okay, Daniizzie. So, she has twins. And yeah, a movie is being made, a documentary about her experience. She’s really cool. She posts a lot about access, in terms of specifically parent-related activities. Yeah, like inclusive playgrounds.VirginiaShe uses a wheelchair and she’s parenting twins. And yeah, of course, how would you play on most playgrounds with your kids? The ground is gravel. There are so many instant barriers. SaraReal safety issues. You have to follow your toddler up the huge curly slide or whatever.VirginiaI mean, sidebar: I hate playgrounds. Until my children became old enough to play independently on them, I just viewed them as parent punishment. But I will also fully acknowledge the privilege in that. I didn’t want to get up on the slide, but I could do it.SaraOh, I just discovered KC Davis. She has a book called How to Keep House While Drowning. She has a post about laundry where she has a bunch of photos of beautiful laundry rooms, and all she says is, “This is a hobby.” VirginiaThis is blowing my mind a little bit right now.SaraIt is an actual task that we must do to keep our family in clean clothes. But we’ve also internalized that it should look good and be pretty.VirginiaAnd is that actually going to make the task of laundry more enjoyable? Is it more delightful to stain treat skid marks in a room with shiplap? No, it would still be gross. And there’s then the added labor of trying to make the room continually look like that photo. Because it will not. The whole point of a laundry room is to be filled with dirty laundry. So it’s never going to look good unless you’re not doing laundry in it.SaraI think so much about this. I’m really into pretty houses and s**t, but I am constantly thinking about how it’s only pretty if it’s clean. The biggest battle is the actual domestic labor.VirginiaHer account is strugglecare. And before people who have beautiful laundry rooms all DM us, she says: There’s nothing wrong with being someone who likes this. Just call it what it is. This is a hobby. It’s a fine hobby to have.  There’s a great parallel here with diet culture because I often think about fitness in the same terms. Fitness is a great hobby! But somebody loving to train for triathlons and having the “triathlon body” doesn’t make them better than people who don’t like to train for triathlons. It’s the same weird infusion of hobbies with moral value because they relate to thinness and whiteness. This kind of laundry room personifies a certain kind of mom, that’s why we’re making it “better” than other laundry rooms.SaraI really want to talk about Cia. They identify as queer and non-binary. They have a lovely, illuminating post about gender dysphoria in regards to breastfeeding. They talk about how breastfeeding in our culture is so wrapped up in the image of a beautiful white mother luxuriating in her femininity. Cia talks about feeling really good about feeding their child and bonding with their child, but also feeling like they don’t fit into this prescribed norm of what breastfeeding should look like.VirginiaYeah, this is a really important conversation. I think about, for non-binary folks going through pregnancy, the importance of communities around that. Because the body changes could be so dysmorphia-inducing. But also, you deserve to be just as proud of what your body’s doing as anyone else. It’s ridiculous that they aren’t included in the conversation.SaraWell, and the reason it feels disorienting and not great is because, again, of the ideal.VirginiaRight, right. It’s the thin white mom taking up way too much space in this conversation. I’m also loving all the normalizing the body changes in this feed, like there’s a lot of photos of their belly, and their postpartum belly. Yeah, this is very cool. When we were talking earlier about disabled mothers losing custody rights, it also reminded me we were going to talk a little bit about The School for Good Mothers and process our feelings about that book. We’re going to try to do it without plot spoilers, because people may want to read it. Although, it’s very important to know that you don’t have to read it. Sara read it and wrote a piece about it. And I was like, “Oh, I’m reading it right now!” And she texted me to say, are you? Do you want to stop? And then I was texting her at 6am when I finished it, in tears. But! We wanted to bring it into this conversation because it articulates the ways that the standards of white motherhood creates these huge disparities and very real trauma.SaraRight now, I can only watch basically like tea and crumpets television. So, if you’re in a space like that, maybe wait a hot second on this book and read it when you’re feeling a little less tea and crumpet-y?VirginiaI would say when the world is better, but I don’t know when that will be. SaraMaybe when there’s more sun?It just hits close to home, which is why it’s such a harrowing read. Just the very arbitrary ways we define good mothering—mothering, specifically, because I think it’s important to note that mothers are held to a different standard than fathers. There is one character who isn’t harrowing—I find her hilarious. So, she has basically a momfluencer character in the book named Susanna. She’s not a momfluencer, but she follows all the like, you know, “essential oil will heal all things.” VirginiaShe is the new girlfriend of the ex-husband of the main character. So the main character’s daughter is now being raised by this new girlfriend and the father. So, she’s watching her child be parented by a momfluencer, basically, and it’s kind of your worst nightmare.SaraAt one point this wellness-y, culty momfluencer removes carbs from the toddler’s diet.VirginiaYes, it’s like, who’s the child abuser? Obviously, it’s not good for a two-year-old to not eat carbs. That’s science. Meanwhile, this woman of color whose parental rights have been terminated over a very minor issue, is watching this happen. Jessamine Chan does such a good job of articulating how the system continually rewards and reinforces Susanna’s style of parenting, even when it is patently bad, like with the decision around the carbs. But there’s a totally different set of standards used to measure mothers of color.SaraThe standards are funny in that they are so over the top. Like the teachers at the school test them on their hugs. This is the hug you give when your toddler is having a meltdown about sharing and is the hug seven seconds too long? Are you doing the bedtime hug? Are you communicating the right kind of maternal warmth through this embrace? VirginiaSo much in there comes out of parenting influencers and the parenting advice that we see on social media. You might have to come back and we’ll do a whole episode about parenting influencers because the way that positive parenting is pushed on social…Butter For Your Burnt ToastSaraSo I have a tortilla recommendation. Do you know the podcast Home Cooking with Samin Nosrat?VirginiaYes! It was everyone’s coping strategy during lockdown.SaraShe recommended these tortillas and I immediately bought them. You put them on a super hot pan for 15 seconds and they balloon up into this crispy, delightful, salty... It’s so good. They’re so good.VirginiaThey have pork fat tortillas, duck fat tortillas, and avocado oil. This sounds amazing. I will be getting them immediately.SaraYeah, I got the duck fat and avocado oil. They were both good. VirginiaWe do a lot of tacos because it’s one of the few meals my family can agree on eating. So I would really like to up our tortilla game. Thank you! I am also going to recommend a food. So, as people know, I had COVID. By the time this airs, I’m hopefully over it. But as we are recording this, I am on day seven and I’m still testing positive. For the first few days I couldn’t even move. But as the fog began to lift, I was like okay, now I need comfort food so I have to bake something. We had a bunch of bananas going brown on the kitchen counter, so I made this banana bread recipe. I did not think I had strong opinions about banana bread. I thought that it was a food that you could just Google any banana bread recipe and it would all turn out the same. Yep, no, no, this is the best banana bread. It is smitten kitchen’s the ultimate banana bread recipe and she is correct. It has this amazing, thick crust and then the inside is still really squishy and gooey. Just make it. Thank me later. It’s very easy to make, too. There’s not a lot of ingredients. I mean, I made it while still having COVID and not being able to stand for more than fifteen minutes at a time. I ate it all week and no one else in my family wanted it and I was so happy. Well, Sara, thank you so much for doing this again. Remind us where we can follow you. SaraOkay, so I’m on Twitter and Instagram.VirginiaThank you for being here.SaraThank you, Virginia!The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Being that it's Essential Labor Day weekend, you are only allowed to listen to the show if you are an essential worker. If you are non-essential, please turn the show off or we will call the police. Join us for episode 125 of Hardly Strictly Politics. We have a lot to cover this show, so we need to break camp and hit the trail early. Join us in the chat for questions, comments, or trolling. Visit us www.zero-gravity-media.com Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr18...​ Subscribe to us on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/de/podcast/z...​ Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/zerogravitymed​​​ Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/zero...​ Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/zerogravitymed​​​ Follow us on Soundcloud: http://www.soundcloud.com/zerogravity​​...

Kelli Danaker is UUCC's Religious Education Assistant, and this past Sunday, she designed, led, and performed in our spring music service titled “Essential Labor.” In the days leading up to the service, Kelli spoke with Sara about the inspiration behind the service and why it was important for UUCC to dedicate a service to considering the rights of blue collar workers to live and work in dignity. Kelli also chats with Sara about the process and experience of leading a worship service and her journey in singing.