Podcast appearances and mentions of angela garbes

This hour on Disrupted, we're challenging long-held assumptions about parents and caregivers. First, Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, explains how care workers are undervalued. She touches on the way the early days of the pandemic spotlighted issues in caregiving and why the legacy of American colonialism in the Philippines influenced both her family history and the disproportionate number of Filipinx nurses who died from COVID. Then, UConn professor Kari Adamsons talks about her research on fathers and the problem with the way many people think about "traditional families." GUESTS: Angela Garbes: author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change Kari Adamsons: Associate Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut This episode originally aired on February 15, 2023.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Government-backed guarantees, from bailouts to bankruptcy protection, help keep the private sector in business in our nation's economic system. What if the same were true not only for businesses but for individuals as well?  In her new book The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy, Natalie Foster, co-founder and president of the Economic Security Project, invites readers to envision a future where things like housing, health care, higher education, family care, inheritance, and an income floor are not only attainable for everyone but guaranteed by our government. The book blends economics, business, public policy, and social justice and calls for a shift from unchecked capitalism to a country that serves all of its people. The Guarantee examines the changes in government guarantees over the past decade, from student debt relief to the child tax credit expansion. Foster's vision for a new American Guarantee draws from real-life experiences as well as collaborations with activists and visionaries. The Guarantee argues not only that new policies are possible, but that they are ready to implement in twenty-first-century America. Natalie Foster is a leading architect of the movement to build an inclusive and resilient economy. She is the president and co-founder of Economic Security Project and an Aspen Institute Fellow, and her work and writing have appeared in the New York Times, USA Today, Time, Business Insider, CNN, and The Guardian. Natalie speaks regularly on economic security, the future of work, and the new political economy. Natalie previously founded the sharing economy community Peers and co-founded Rebuild the Dream with Van Jones, and served as Digital Director for President Obama's Organizing for America — a leading partner in winning transformative healthcare reform. A daughter of a preacher from Kansas, Natalie draws on the values of community, dignity, and optimism to build a better America. The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy is her first book. Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Buy the Book The Guarantee: Inside the Fight for America's Next Economy Third Place Books

You're listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for another Indulgence Gospel. It's the last week of our summer break, so we'll be back after Labor Day with all new podcast episodes for you. We so appreciate everyone who has been continuing to listen and support the podcast during our hiatus. It means a lot to know that our community enjoys our work and cares that we're able to make it sustainable too. So as a thank you for listening, today's Indulgence Gospel rerun has no paywall. We've realized that so many of you on the free list almost never get to hear how hilarious and smart Corinne is — and as paid subscribers know, Indulgence Gospel episodes are truly the heart of the podcast. They are the most fun to make, because they are the episodes where we feel truly in conversation with all of you.If you love this episode, of course we hope you'll consider a paid subscription to Burnt Toast so you can get every paywalled episode we make. And we also hope you'll subscribe to Big Undies, Corinne's new Substack about clothes. And, if you subscribe to Big Undies, you can take 20 percent off your Burnt Toast subscription or vice versa – either way, it gets you all of our content for under $12 per month.This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! Episode 157 TranscriptVirginiaYou're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I'm Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.VirginiaWe have so many good questions this month. A lot of parenting food questions. I think maybe because I just ran the lunchbox piece in the newsletter it's on everybody's minds. But also, as usual, some fat fashion stuff. Clogs are coming up later. And Ozempic, because obviously. So it's gonna be a good one.VirginiaSo before we dive in, how are you doing? What's new with you, Corinne?CorinneI'm doing well. One thing that's new with me is: I just signed up to do a powerlifting meet. So I'm feeling nervous. VirginiaWell, yeah. Is this like a competition thing, where people come and watch? CorinneI think so. I mean, obviously, I've never done something like this before. It's in Albuquerque, and it's being run by my gym. And it's all women's. VirginiaThat sounds very cool. CorinneI'm just having a little of like, Oh, what did I do? Let's see. Wow. Am I going to be the most amateur, weakest person there? I might.VirginiaBut you'll still be super strong and amazing. Because the weakest person at a powerlifting competition is still the strongest person in most other rooms.CorinneThat's a good point. And I think one great thing about lifting is, it's really more about your own goals and competing with yourself. But still.VirginiaSo is it like whoever lifts the most is the winner?CorinneSo my understanding is very loose, but I know there are different weight classes. So you compete against people who are roughly around the same size?.Virginia Interesting. Okay.CorinneAnd then I think it's a cumulative weight of how much you lift, like combined squat, deadlift, bench press. VirginiaWow, that's so cool. Julia Turshen recently did one of these.CorinneI feel like I was slightly influenced by Julia Turshen.VirginiaDid she enable you? Julia, good job! The pictures and videos she posted of it looked super exciting. And it looked like a very professional athletic setting. I would be intimidated for sure.CorinneThe other thing that I'm sure we'll end up talking about again, but you have to wear a singlet which is like, where am I gonna find a singlet? And knee socks.VirginiaKnee socks! Why knee socks? CorinneI'm like, oh my God, I'm never gonna find knee socks that fit me, but I'm trying to figure out if I can wear Universal Standard body shorts as a singlet, because I already have one of those. VirginiaThat feels like a great solution. CorinneIt's singlet-esque? But I don't know what the actual requirements are.VirginiaGirlfriend Collective also has a shorts body suit thing.CorinneI should look into that. VirginiaBut I feel like you should be able to work with what you have. Especially for your first one. Once you're a pro and doing this all the time, you'll get, like, something with rhinestones. CorinneOnce I'm a sponsored Olympic athlete. Yes.VirginiaI love that like we're getting to follow along on the journey. Obviously we're going to need another installment on this afterwards.CorinneOkay, yes. And just to be clear, the meet isn't until July, so, so I have a lot of time to think about it.VirginiaI'm just saying though. A few months ago, you were recommending Casey Johnston and her couch-to-barbell program. And you were like, “I'm just using a broomstick.”CorinneIt's true. VirginiaAnd now!CorinneIt's true and now I'm lifting actual pounds.VirginiaVery, very cool. CorinneYeah, what's new with you? VirginiaI feel like what's new with me is that I am surviving, not thriving a little bit. So this is going to come out in mid-April. So we'll be two weeks out from book launch. So I will either be better or I will be way worse. I mean, having had two children, it's sort of similar to the last month of pregnancy when you're like, it's all you can think about, this thing is happening, but you have no control over it. I mean, at least with the book, you know, like the date it's coming. Which with pregnancy, they have yet to really figure out, unless you're scheduling. But I counted it up this morning, I have recorded 18 podcasts so far. Of other people's podcasts. Like for talking about the book. 18 people's podcasts. CorinneOh whoa. That's wild.VirginiaAnd like, seven of them were in the last week and a half? So I feel like my voice is hanging on by a thread. And I'm just getting a little mush-brained about it. I need to step back a little.Obviously, I am super grateful. I love that people want me to talk about the book. I love that people are excited about the book. I cannot wait for it to be out. But it's just at a point where there are a lot of details. Like, review all the press release materials, review the marketing plan…. I forgot we were recording today. And it's not the first thing I've forgotten. Like, I forgot the kids had a dentist appointment. We made it, but I'm just like, my brain is holding too many pieces of information. Some things are getting dropped. I'm just coming in with a sort of scattered energy. But I've got the Throat Coat Tea that I'm living on right now. And we're gonna do it! CorinneDo you have any upcoming book promo stuff that you're really excited to do?VirginiaWell, I did an interview yesterday that I can't talk about yet, because I don't think it will be out by the time this launches. CorinneTop secret. VirginiaThere are two top secret ones that will be coming out in the week or two after this podcast episode. And they're both very exciting. And I will say that I was very happy with my outfit for one. So that was good. And the other one the outfit matters less because it is not visual. I will say no more! And yeah, that part's been fun, actually figuring out clothes for like the book tour Dacy has been helping me and maybe some time we'll do a follow up about finding clothes for this. Because it's a very specific level of, how dressy do you want to be versus comfortable? So maybe there will be an essay of what I wore for the book tour.CorinneI would love to read that.VirginiaOkay, so we're going to do some questions! The first one is a hot take opportunity. This came in over Instagram multiple times. People would like to know what we saw of Jia Tolentino's Ozempic piece in The New Yorker.CorinneOkay, well, now is my time to be embarrassed when I admit that I read it really lightly. I did a really light skim sort of read, and was like, seems fine. And then I've seen everyone else being like, “This article is horrible.” And I've been like, wow, I really need to revisit that and find out why people are so upset.VirginiaI'm glad to hear people are saying they're upset! I felt like no one was talking about it at all for a little bit. And I was like, what is happening? I feel like the New York magazine piece came out, which I wrote about and that was not great. And then this piece comes out two weeks later, and I'm just like, why? Why did it come out? It's the same piece really. And I want to be clear that I love Jia's work. I loved Trick Mirror. I think she writes phenomenal stuff. The piece she did on Angela Garbes last year was just incredible. And this was… not that. It is very much centering the story on thin people who would like to be thinner if they take Ozempic. There's one fat person interviewed for the story. And, you know, of course, every fat person is entitled to their own experience of fatness. But her quotes just reinforced so many stereotypes. She talks about wanting to lose weight because she feels like she can't hike or run at her current size. And it's like, come on. We can do better. CorinneIf you want to hike and run, you could work on hiking and running?VirginiaRight! There are so many fat hikers and runners on Instagram. CorinneI thought the compounding pharmacy thing was kind of interesting.VirginiaOh, like explaining how sort of like loosey goosey it is and getting the drugs? CorinneBecause I've seen a lot of people on TikTok being like, I'm getting this patented drug from a compounding pharmacy. And I'm like, wait, is that real? Like, what is that? So I thought that part was interesting.VirginiaIt was interesting. But when she goes through the process of getting it herself, I always just worry—this is the eating disorder handbook stuff.Corinne True true. You're literally telling people how to do it. VirginiaAnd I get that that's not hard to find. We all have Google. But is that something The New Yorker should be doing? Does The New Yorker need to teach us how to get our weight loss drugs? I don't know. I feel like the general trend in the Ozempic coverage–And this is not just Jia, not just New York Magazine. But by and large, this coverage has this underlying question of: If we have now found a silver bullet that will make people thin, does that mean we can just forget about anti fat bias? And that is so dark. We cannot just say, now that we have a way to make everybody thin, it's okay to hate fat people, because we can just make them thin.CorinneThat's a good point.VirginiaI'm not judging anyone's individual decisions about this. But this larger discourse is not helpful. That's my hot, grouchy take. CorinneThat's the hot take! I would love to know also, if any listeners have strong feelings about it? VirginiaYes. Comments are open!CorinneOkay, the next question is:Q: The one thing I can't shake as a new mom is worrying about making my daughter fat. How do I shake that? I grew up fat and it was hard. I want better for her. But does that mean dieting?VirginiaThis is a very understandable fear. But no, it does not mean dieting. CorinneI want to validate this parent's worries, because you're coming from a place where it sounds like you struggled a lot. And you don't want your kids to struggle, and that totally makes sense.VirginiaI think what I'm stuck on is, “I grew up fat and it was hard.” Yes, absolutely. Not denying that. But was it hard because you were fat? Or was it hard because the world made fat not okay?And so, this is kind of the Ozempic thing, right? Is the answer to erase fatness by which we mean erase fat people? Or is the answer systemic change and unlearning this bias on a personal level? But I know, that is a terrible question. You cannot make all those systemic changes by yourself. That is not doable. So it is really, really hard.CorinneThe one thing that's sort of not explicit in this question is whether the kid is actually fat.VirginiaShe says she's a new mom. So I'm thinking she has a baby. So she probably doesn't know? CorinneBecause my next thought was, you could talk to your kid about it being hard. But maybe not for a newborn.VirginiaBut maybe start now! Get the conversation going.CorinneStart thinking about it. You can talk to yourself about it. I think now might be a time to start therapy. VirginiaTherapy, always a great option.You are not going to make your daughter thin or fat. You don't actually control her body size. The number of factors that go into determining body sizes is this sort of endless and murky list, and no one really knows what are the largest drivers. But how you feed her, and how much you make her run around are not the largest drivers of her body size. And putting all your energy there is only going to cause damage, which you yourself probably know, because when you say it was hard, I'm guessing that some kind of childhood dieting might have been a piece of that.So I feel like we need to let you off the hook of the “I'm gonna make her fat.” She may be fat. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not your fault. And what she really needs is for you to unconditionally accept her body.CorinneI also think this could be a really good time to think of some advocacy you could do, whether that's looking into school policies about bullying or even at the legislative level, like laws about anti fat bias. Or just trying to be an advocate in your community for body liberation or fat liberation? VirginiaI love that. And I just wanna say this is hard. It is really unfair that that is asked of us. But that is where we are on this issue. And we're only going to make progress if we all approach it from that perspective. CorinneAnd I want to reiterate: The thing about bias is, the solution is never to get rid of the people we're biased against. Or to change them somehow.VirginiaRight. So it's okay. Maybe your daughter is going to be fat and how are you going to support her and advocate for her and make your home a safe space for her body?CorinneAll right, I'm going to read the next one too: Q: I am trying very hard to be very neutral about food with my son who's four years old. From the start, I have not labeled foods as good or bad. I have not restricted access to sweets or desserts. But lately, I've started questioning this. I've always felt pressure because I am not able to manage cooking meals. So from the start, my son was fed using a grazing technique where I would put together various foods and he would eat what he wanted. As he has gotten older, he is more specific in his tastes in a way that feels normal to me, pretty much macaroni and cheese or similar foods most of the time. There are other things he will eat, but I feel a lot of grief about my inability to get it together and provide regular hot balanced meals, also for myself. Recently, I've been trying to limit his intake of sweets just a little bit and it feels like a backside but I've been confused. Only two cookies and even suggesting he eats something before he gets the cookies. This week's mailbag episode made me reorient when you talked about not doing this and reminded me why I wanted to avoid this restriction based language. And I admit the reason I started thinking about this was twofold. I filled out a research survey that made me admit a lot of things about our household eating that I feel low level guilty about and I felt the sting of perceived societal shaming.And my son started talking about treats. I was a bit miffed as categorizing something as a treat, as opposed to food which he labeled the rest as, was something I was trying to avoid. Then I realized this could have come from daycare television, the fact that we give the dog treats, and so I am overreacting. I find it's so hard to be consistent in my parenting in many avenues and food encroaches on that too. Giving food as a reward for example, this is something I do for myself, and I like it. But perhaps it is part of the problem of saving food for a special occasion as opposed to having it because you want it.I need some perspective, please. Is it ever useful to direct a child to a more balanced diet as opposed to just modeling it? I do not mean telling them that specific foods help your eyes. What a relief to see that debunked, but more that many foods are yummy. And basically some form of kid specific ‘everything in moderation.'VirginiaThe first thing I want to say is: You are doing a great job. You are feeding your child. It does not matter that you are not cooking. And that the food is not hot or homemade. It does not matter at all. You are meeting your son's needs by making sure he is fed every day, and making sure that he has enough to eat in order to grow. That's the most important thing and you're doing it. You're winning! You're doing great. And this really drives home for me the stigma we have around the idea that you can't feed kids processed foods, you have to cook meals. All of this is so unhelpful because there are just so many reasons why that model of family meals is not a good fit. There could be disability issues. There could be cost issues, time bandwidth issues, all sorts of hurdles. There could also just be that you don't like cooking. You can still be a good parent and not like cooking. It's not a requirement. SoI just want to encourage you to take some of the shame away. Corinne That's a great place to start. I totally agree. I was thinking about the study that you mention in FAT TALK about how it doesn't matter what you're eating and it much more matters that kids are just eating. VirginiaOh, that's a quote from Katherine Zavodni, who's one of my favorite pediatric dietitians. So teaser for everyone who hasn't read the book yet, but it's a quote that I want to put on our fridge! She says, “The most important thing about good nutrition is making sure kids have enough to eat.” Because if you have enough to eat, all the minutiae of micronutrients, and macronutrients tends to work itself out. Now, obviously, there are kids with severe food issues like feeding disorders, allergies or other medical conditions where it may be more complicated. Their nutritional needs may be more specific. But if your kid is not dealing with one of those things, and has enough to eat on any given day, you have done your job as a parent.CorinneAnd you also talked about the studies on family meals, right? And how the benefits come from eating together rather than making sure it's a home-cooked meal. VirginiaI'm so glad you brought that up. All the research on family dinners, which talks about how important they are for kids' overall well-being and health—it's because families are spending time together. So you could do that around breakfast, you could do that around a snack, you could do that in ways that have nothing to do with food. Like maybe you regularly have a long car ride to commute to school and work together. And that's when you talk and catch up on your day. Kids need connected time with their caregivers. Food is just one helpful way to do it.CorinneIt doesn't matter if you are eating snack plates, or macaroni. VirginiaSome of my most connected meals with my kids are when we're eating takeout or bowls of Cheerios for dinner! Because everyone is relaxed and you can focus on each other. And you're not in this place of, “I put all this work into this meal and nobody likes it.”. So then let's talk about feeling like you need to limit his intake of sweets. I think you're going there because you're feeling ashamed about what you're doing. So I'm hoping just lifting some of the shame lets you step back from that a little bit. I also think the research shows pretty clearly that requiring kids to eat in very specific ways, like micromanaging their plate by saying “you have to eat something else before you get the cookies” or “only two cookies,” does not. in the long-term, serve kids' relationship with food. It tends to result in kids who are overly fixated on the foods that have a lot of rules around them. You're going to find yourself in power struggles where it's like, why only two cookies, why not three cookies, why not two and a half cookies.Don't feel bad that you've done this, because I think we all get into these sort of panic moments where we do this because we're just struggling and it feels like the “right thing to do.” But I don't think it will ultimately serve you or serve your child. I think modeling eating a variety of foods is the best thing we can do. And even using phrases like “balance” or “everything in moderation,” I don't love because not every day is going to be about moderation. And that can turn into a rule. Because what is “moderation?” And then the last thing I'll say is, I think we touched on this in a previous episode. But I don't think treat needs to be a bad word. Yes, we give the dog treats. Dogs' existences are largely treat-based, at least in my house. We give ourselves food as rewards when we're stressed out or we need some extra comfort. When we talk about keeping all foods neutral, I think we can take it too far, to this place where it feels like we're not supposed to have any feelings about food at all. And that is not realistic or fair, or in line with how humans interact with foods.So we do use the word treat in our house. And this came up with the lunchbox piece because I have a category of treats on the little chart I made for Beatrix and folks were like, “I can't believe you have a treat category.” And I realized they had a different definition of that word. If you don't have restrictive rules around when or how much treats you can eat, then treat is a neutral word. It just means foods that feel extra fun. Just something extra fun you want to have on your plate along with your other foods. And if you're not saying “we only eat treats once a day,” or “we only eat treats on Saturdays;” if it's not paired with restrictive language, then it's still keeping foods neutral. Does that make sense?CorinneI think especially with the lunch box example, you're using treat as a category to make sure you're getting a treat. That seems really positive.VirginiaBecause I want them to know that those foods are welcome in their lunchboxes. Yes.CorinneOr required, even! VirginiaNone of it's required, Corinne, they can skip the treat if they want! But it's a part of the meal. CorinneMaybe that's a way that this person could reframe it. It feels like you're hearing your kid say treat and thinking they're feeling like it's something to be restricted. When could you be like, “Let's make sure you're getting enough treats.”VirginiaThat's a great re-framing. I hope this helps. This is a big question. And I can tell you're working through a lot of big stuff. So we would like an update. Please keep us posted!CorinneYou're doing a great job.VirginiaYes. CorinneI'm gonna read the next one as well. Q: My daughter is in fifth grade. At school she's often given food in addition to what she brings for her lunch and snacks. Candy is handed out as an incentive. Snacks, as well as non-edible items, are available to purchase with Classroom Bucks earned for good behavior. Several days a week she has after school activities that include a good deal of snacking. For the most part, I've accepted that I have no control over what she eats when she's away from me. However, she is regularly coming home not hungry for the dinner I've prepared. It's becoming more frequent lately that she'll snack so much at school, and at after school activities, that she will eat only a couple bites of dinner, and occasionally nothing at all. Dinners are usually meals she likes and she always has the opportunity to choose a backup option if she doesn't. So I don't think it's an issue of filling up because she won't get food she likes at dinner. She chooses and packs her own lunch and snack. We generally have a rule that if you put it on the grocery list, Mom will buy it, which is to say she has a lot of control of choice and regular access to candy and snack foods, both at home and in her lunch.Is it diet culture to expect her to come to dinner ready to eat? Or is it valid for me to feel miffed that she's already full? And yeah, I realize we'll all have an off day or skip a meal once in a while. This is becoming a regular occurrence though.VirginiaI don't think it's diet culture exactly. I think it's performative parenting culture a little bit, where we are very tied to this idea that, again, the family dinner is this all-important cornerstone of the day, where we have to provide a certain kind of meal. And that it is only successful if our children eat the meal. If they participate in, and enjoy the meal. And even if we're like, “they can choose how much they're hungry for,” if they don't want to eat it at all, it's really hard.I say this from extensive personal experience. It's really hard to not feel like you failed because you're like, “I just spent 40 minutes making this and you ate two bites and ran away.” But what I also want to say is: 9 out of 10 family dinners in my house involve one or both children eating two bites of the meal and running away. I think it's very, very, very common at sort of all ages. And yes, it is often because they had a lot of snacks in the afternoon. Because that is when they were really hungry and needed to eat. And so my expectation that 5:30 or 6:00 pm is when we're all going to sit down and eat this big meal together is out of line with the reality of at 3:30 or 4:30 pm, they are ravenous and need to eat. And so we're just always going to have that mismatch and it is what it is. Nobody needs to feel bad.CorinneThis relates back a little to the parent who's feeling guilty about not cooking meals. It's kind of the flip side where this parent is cooking meals and feeling bad about them.VirginiaI also want to speak to the piece about food given out at school. I don't love candy being handed out as an incentive in class. And that is not because I don't want the kids eating the candy. It's because I think it does play into making candy seem so special and coveted. And for kids who have more restrictive relationships with candy at home, I don't feel like it's helpful. Does that make sense? I don't have a problem with there being a birthday party in class and everyone's eating cupcakes or candy just being there, like if the teacher just wants to have a candy jar on their desk and kids can help themselves. But it's layering on the messages about earning the candy that I really don't love. Because diet culture is going to teach kids so many different ways that you have to earn your treats.But I have not figured out a way to eradicate this practice from the American public school system. It's a very common tactic. And I think teachers have very, very hard jobs and if handing out M&Ms for getting math problems right makes it easier to do their job? I don't know, man, I think that's where we are. CorinneYeah. VirginiaAnd if it's happening in the context of, your child also has all this great regular access to candy and treats because like you said, you're involving her in the grocery list and lunch packing and all that, then I don't think it being handed out as an incentive is going to do that much damage.They can understand that at school, M&Ms are being given as a reward. And at home, there is a bag of M&Ms that I can just eat.CorinneWith the teachers handing out candy as incentives, I'm worried more about the kids who are not getting candy as incentives.VirginiaOh, what a terrible message. That's so sad. You did this wrong. No candy for you. It is tricky. And I mean, I don't mind kids purchasing snacks with Classroom Bucks. That feels a little more diffuse to me. That's giving them some independence. And after school activities should include snacks because the majority of children are starving after school. I think the key here is don't demonize the way she's eating because she's getting her needs met. Just maybe take some pressure off yourself. If dinner is usually something she likes, if there's an option to choose a backup option and she doesn't, then she's just not hungry. CorinneAnd maybe that can take some of the pressure off dinner. Like maybe you just make a snack plate.VirginiaSomething simpler. Or make something you're really excited to eat.CorinneSomething you like! VirginiaThat's what I often do when I can tell the kids are not in like super dinner oriented phases. I'm like, Okay, then I'm picking what I want. And we also do a bedtime snack. And in fifth grade, she's probably staying up late enough that she's up a few hours after dinner. And if she was really hungry for dinner at 3pm, and then she wasn't that hungry for real dinner at 6pm, by 8 or 9pm, she probably needs something before she goes to bed. Alright, should I read the next one? Q: My question is about restricting food, not for dietary reasons, but because of the financial and waste concerns. My spouse and I wince when we see our kids drowning their waffles in maple syrup and leaving a plateful of it, eating all the prepackaged expensive foods we try to save for their lunches and eating all the Girl Scout cookies so they don't have to share them with a sibling.I've told my kids that they never need to hide food, but I find them doing so in order to get the last of something like the Oreos they want to keep from their brother. I buy Oreos every time we go to the store, and our house has plenty of sweets and other snack foods, but eventually we will run out of things. How do we keep them out of the scarcity mindset while still dealing with the realities of eating with a family? I really feel you on the syrup. It's so expensive. CorinneI know I was thinking you're basically watching your kid pour gold on their pancakes. VirginiaIt's so much. CorinneI mean this whole question is relatable to me. I definitely had some anxiety growing up about like, I feel like my dad would always eat stuff that I wanted, like leftovers or like the last cookie or something, you know?VirginiaYeah, it's really tricky because the bummer answer to this is: A finance-based scarcity mindset can be just as damaging as a diet-culture based scarcity mindset.CorinneSo true. VirginiaKids who grow up without enough to eat, or with this sort of ever-present worry about there being enough to eat often end up with some disordered eating stuff down the road, understandably, because when there is food, they'll feel like, “I have to eat it all. Because I don't know what I'm going to eat it again.” It's totally logical. So this can be really tough. And I'm not sure from this question, if you are struggling to afford these foods? Is there a true food insecurity issue in your house? Or if it's more just, you are on a budget. CorinneYou only go grocery shopping once a week and Oreos don't last the whole week.VirginiaSo I'm not sure which one we're dealing with. But I just want to say if affording food is really hard for you, then obviously, your first priority is getting whatever support you can around that. Which could be finding out if you're eligible for SNAP benefits, making sure your kids are on the school lunch program, all the stuff that I am sure you are already doing. And don't need me to explain to you.If it's more just the “Good God, that was a $9 bottle of syrup” moment, I think it's okay to say to kids, “This is a more expensive food.” So we're going to be mindful of that. With syrup, if you have little ramekins or bowls, you can say, “We're going to give everyone their own syrup.” And pour generously! Don't flood the plate the way they would flood the plate, but pour generously enough so that every kid feels like they have their own and they don't have to share it.We do this sometimes with something like brownies. Or if we have cake or some dessert that we don't have as often. When I know the kids are going to be really excited about it, I often will just go ahead and portion it out. Not because I'm trying to control how much they eat. But because I want them to know, “I'm definitely getting mine.” This actually just happened with Cadbury Mini Eggs, which are just a prime example of a scarcity mindset food because you can only get them for a month a year and they're the best candy. It's so hard! Dan brought home a big family-size bag from the grocery store. And between me and the girls, it was gone by the next night and he was like, “Really? Really? There are none left?” I think he was mad he didn't get any. But I was like, “Yeah, no there are none left.” I know that you thought that was a big bag, but we haven't had these in ages and we're all real jazzed about it.CorinneYou need to start portioning out some for Dan.VirginiaI suppose that would have been nice of me. CorinneSo if you're portioning out the brownie—what does that mean? Like you cut the brownies into four squares and give everyone a square? VirginiaI usually give everyone two squares because I feel one brownie is never enough.CorinneOh, you cut them into normal sized pieces. VirginiaOh yes. I just cut up the brownies. But rather than put the pan of brownies in the middle of the table, which might make everyone worry, like, “Am I going to get the piece I want?” Especially because, in my household, center-of-the-pan brownies are highly coveted. It's a whole thing.  So I'll just go ahead and be like, “Here's your center brownie.” So they don't have to be anxious about whether they'll get one.Maybe also, talk to your kids about which foods they worry about wanting the most. It's useful to know what that is. So you can think about how to ease up that fear, in a way that is in line with your budget. But maybe the kid who's hiding the Oreos, you buy them their own jumbo bag of Oreos and they don't have to share. And maybe if that's in your budget, you do that for a few weeks and see how that goes. And maybe every kid gets their own favorite snack food in that kind of quantity, which they don't have to share with a sibling. And then it's understood that all the other stuff is shared. It's not teaching restriction or scarcity to say, “Okay, let's make sure everyone has their seconds before you have thirds.” That's manners. That's okay. CorinneOr to maybe just one week buy like super extra amounts of Oreos and be like, eat as many Oreos as you want this week. VirginiaAnd see what they do with that. That would be interesting.CorinneAll right. Here's a question for you: How comfortable are your Charlotte Stone clogs?VirginiaThey are comfortable for clogs, is what I would say. And I love clogs very much. But they are a little bit of a scam in that they are not actually the most comfortable shoe. So I do not equate them to sneakers. For sure sneakers are more comfortable. Birkenstocks are more comfortable. But I wear my Charlotte Stone clogs the way other people might wear a ballet flat, or a loafer, like a dressier shoe. And I feel like no dressy shoe is ever really that comfortable. They're pinchy or they give you blisters. And so by that standard, these are quite comfortable. Because they have a built-in memory foam padding situation. So you're not walking on a block of wood the way you are with some clogs. I feel like I got shin splints from those, back in the day. They're definitely more comfortable than that. But I wore them downtown yesterday. And I did move my car to avoid walking two blocks because it was uphill. So I don't wear them for extensive walking. CorinneBut you would say they're more comfortable than some clogs?VirginiaI think yes. Of the various cute clog brands.CorinneFashion clogs.VirginiaThey are the most comfortable fashion clog I have tried and I have tried probably three or four brands. Like they're better than Number Six. They're better than Swedish Hasbeens. CorinneMy issue is that clogs are always too narrow for me. I can never find clogs that fit.VirginiaYeah, and I mean I have narrower feet, so I don't know how useful Charlotte Stone is on that front.CorinneThey do have a lot of sizing info. I tried some Charlotte Stone non-clogs, like they had a cute sneaker-ish thing, because they go up to size 12. Which should be what my size is, but they were way too narrow. Like I could not even get my foot in.VirginiaThat's such a bummer. Somebody could get into the wide width clog market and do very well.CorinneOh God, seriously. I found one clog that works for wide-ish feet. It's called Haga Trotoffel or something.VirginiaThat sounded like a very accurate pronunciation. CorinneI've had a pair, but it's the non-padded pure wood kind. So it's just not super comfortable to me.VirginiaThose are rough. Ever since I sprained my ankle, I am very cautious. Where am I going to wear these clogs? What sort of terrain am I walking? I really want to find some cute ones with a strap at the back for more stability. I think Charlotte Stone has ones with a strap that I'm thinking about trying, except I don't need more clogs. CorinneNumber Six also has some that are really cute and the base is almost flat. That might be more uncomfortable. I don't know.VirginiaWell I wear the lowest height Charlotte Stone clog. I do not go for their super platforms. I am not 22. That chapter of my life is closed. But they're not a Dansko clog! Let's be clear. And, I would say to be realistic that if you live on the east coast, or the Midwest, they're like, a three month a year shoe. They're great in the spring. They're great in the fall. They're going to be too hot in the summer and they're going to be useless in the winter. So factor that in. Okay, so next up: Q: I have a question about chafing. Since giving birth for the second time in 2021, my body has changed and I probably fall in the small fat category. I've dealt with chafing between my thighs and in the summers before, but now that I have to wear outside clothes and get out of the house more, I am dealing with chafing in the groin area even in the winter, which is the thing I didn't I don't have prior experience with. I am looking for recommendations for underwear that have a wide enough gusset to hopefully prevent this. And any other tips to be more comfortable in this regard with this new body of mine? Corinne, you're the underwear queen!CorinneI have a lot of thoughts about this.VirginiaYou are the resident Burnt Toast underwear expert.CorinneMy first thought is: Are we sure this is a chafing issue? VirginiaOh, what else could it be? CorinneWell, another thing that can happen when you become fat is you get irritation in your skin folds area. So just something to throw out there, because I've heard people having confusion around that before. It's like a yeast infection you can get in your skin folds. It's like a diaper rash. And you can treat it with diaper rash cream or zinc cream.VirginiaAquaphor?CorinneNo! Aquaphor? Isn't Aquaphor like Vaseline?VirginiaYeah, but I used it on my kids' butts when they had diaper rash. CorinneOkay, well, maybe I don't know anything about diaper rash.VirginiaMaybe that was a bad move.CorinneI feel like a lot of diaper rash cream has zinc in it, and it coats your skin to protect it. VirginiaI know what you're talking about now.CorinneIn terms of wider gusset underwear, there are not a lot of good options. The one option that I have found out about which I have not tried but have ordered and am currently waiting on is this underwear from the brand Panty Drop. I'm kind of confused about what's going on with them because it seems like they merged with another brand which was Kade & Vos. Okay. But they claimed to have wider gusset underwear. And another thing you could consider would be boxers or boxer briefs.VirginiaI was wondering about even a boy's short underwear. Something that has a longer thigh situation.CorinneIt goes down further.VirginiaOr bike shorts as underwear. CorinneAnd I mean, people definitely make chafing shorts. VirginiaYes! I just ordered some from Snag.CorinnePeople also like Thigh Society. So you could shop around and look for chafing shorts that you could just wear as underwear. VirginiaRight, just under your jeans or other hard pants, And where are you on MegaBabe or the other chafing balms? Do you have one you like?CorinneI have MegaBabe. I almost never need it. Just, whatever way that I'm designed, it's not an issue for me right now. Virginia I get chafing but I haven't tried MegaBabe. I actually have a very low tech hack. But I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is my husband's antiperspirant, and I use that as my antiperspirant. And so then I just put it between my thighs as well. And I find that holds up pretty well. I sometimes have to reapply it during the day, like on a very hot day. And one of the reasons I think I don't wear dresses as much anymore is, chafing is an automatic reality in dresses. And some shorts too, depending on how they're cut. So we feel you. This is a reality of fat life for sure! CorinneIf you have fat friends, you can talk to them about it because a lot of people have this problem.VIrginiaIt's an evergreen conversation. Everyone will have opinions.CorinneOkay, next question: Q: Any tips on changing the dialogue with mom friends or friends in general who are progressive and informed otherwise, but still mired in diet culture? I feel like I'm the only one who isn't intermittent fasting or doing keto.VirginiaI posted a meme on Instagram today, there was something like to all the women who are bullying each other to order salads, aren't you so sad that you hate your life so much. And my DMs are currently flooded with people asking some version of this question: How do I keep going out to dinner with my friends who are so in this space? One person was telling me about being out to dinner and this group of women were trying to split tacos. Like tacos are small to start with. And they were all like, “Well, I can't eat a whole one.”CorinneI'm like, “Am I ordering 9 or 12.”VirginiaCorrect. The number of tacos I need to be full is a very high number. I would not split one in two. It's already only two bites!CorinneIt's like trying to split a popsicle.VirginiaIt's a total mess. So I feel like my first piece of advice is, can you make new friends? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know. CorinneMy first piece of advice is just like, Man up. Tell them you don't want to talk about it.VirginiaThat's better than mine.CorinneI mean, maybe it's harsh. It's a little tough love. Your advice is good too. There's gotta be other people out there who are sick of this. Like, every person I know could benefit from some examination of their relationship with diet culture. So I just feel like, you can't be the only one who's struggling.VirginiaThere are almost 30,000 people subscribed to this newsletter, who probably feel the same way as you because why else are they reading the newsletter and listening to this podcast?.CorinneOkay. Actually, this is a little off topic. But can I tell you something? So, as previously discussed, I go to the gym. I have a trainer there. And this week, when I saw her, she was like, “Hey, so this person contacted me who found me through Burnt Toast.” VirginiaYay! CorinneSo I'm just saying what that basically means is there is another person in the city that I live in, who's reading Burnt tToast who I don't know. And none of my friends know. VirginiaRight! But who maybe would be an awesome friend. CorinneOr who at least also has some skepticism of diet culture stuff.  So that's got to be true for you as well.VirginiaAnd you have powerlifting in common! Yes, in my close group of friends, we really never talk about this. And maybe it's because they read the newsletter and know that I'm not the friend for this. CorinneThey're scared. VirginiaBut we have so many better conversations because this is off the table for us. And we never made a conscious decision to do it. It just kind of happened. I do feel like in the past, we had more diet-y conversations. And we've all kind of shifted away from it. And it's been lovely and great for our friendships. And so maybe you do need to officially say it to these people: I love you. But I just don't want to talk about diets. This really isn't good for me. I just end up feeling shitty about myself. And there are so many more interesting things to talk about here.CorinneYeah. I think it's good for people to know that too. If people are totally unaware that talking about their diets constantly is hurting people, then they should know. And they deserve to know that.VirginiaCompletely agree. And often this talk is very performative because we think we have to talk this way. And so you being the first one to say, “What if we just ordered what we wanted to eat and didn't do this whole dance?” I call it like playing the game of Salad Chicken, where you're like,“Could I order the pasta? No, not if she's ordering the salad.” Like, if you could not do that? Man, dinner is gonna be way more fun. So just give people permission to not do it and see what happens. And if they really can't get there, then I circle back to: Can you have other friends? Or can you say to them, I don't want to spend our time talking about this but I'm really sorry you're struggling and how can I support you?CorinneOh my God, I love the idea of responding to someone who's excited about intermittent fasting with, “I'm sorry, you're struggling.”VirginiaHow can I support you in this starvation?CorinneI'm so sorry that you're not eating food.VirginiaYou're right. That might not be the moment.CorinneNo, I like it. VirginiaI think it could work? I think it's an option. CorinneI mean, I think this is also that sort of situation where you can be like, “It's so interesting that we're all so focused on our weird diets.”VirginiaThe patented Corinne “It's so interesting!”CorinneJust an anthropological, outsider observation.VirginiaIt's always, always a good moment for that. All right. Should we do Butter? CorinneYes. I do have a Butter. What I want to recommend is this recipe called Trouble Cookies. It's from a cookbook called Mother Grains, but it's also on the Bon Appetit website. And I feel like it's a little annoying to recommend because it does have a really annoying to find ingredient which is sorghum flour. [Reminder that if you preorder FAT TALK from Split Rock Books, you can also take 10 percent off any book mentioned on the podcast!]VirginiaOh Lord.CorinneBut you can order it from the internet!VirginiaCorinne will find a link for you.CorinneBob's Red Mill's has it. So if you have that kind of grocery store. Anyways, they also have coconut cashews and toffee bits and are extremely delicious. I've been trying to get my mom to make them for like a month and now I'm moving on to the Burnt Toast community. Please make Trouble Cookies and tell me how good they are.VirginiaI will try them. I will report back if I can get it together to get sorghum flour. I could use a new cookie. We're just a standard chocolate chip cookie household. CorinneI feel like chocolate chip cookies are good. But sometimes, a different direction is really good, too. VirginiaIs there chocolate in it? CorinneNo, it's coconut toffee bits cashews.VirginiaCould I put chocolate chips in instead of the toffee bits.CorinneI mean, I feel like you could? But it's really good. Do you not like caramel-y, coconut-y stuff?VirginiaAmy will tell you it is very hard for me to have a dessert that doesn't have chocolate in it.CorinneOkay, this one is not for you. VirginiaI'm just always like, but where's the chocolate? CorinneOh my God.VirginiaWhat am I doing here?Corinne I'm the opposite. And I mean, I really like chocolate. But I also really like a coconut-y caramel-y vibe. VirginiaI do too. I'm just like, but how much better if there was chocolate. That's all I'm saying.CorinneI feel like maybe you could dip it in chocolate? VirginiaAll right. I don't know. I'll try them out. I'll report back. Maybe I'll do half the batch with the toffee, half the batch with the chocolate chips. I can tell you my kids won't touch them if there's no chocolate. So that's like a non-starter. CorinneReally? Wow.VirginiaOh, please. CorinneI feel like a lot of kids don't like chocolate. VirginiaThat is not the case in the Sole-Smith home. See previous anecdote regarding Mini Eggs consumed in a day. And center brownies. It's very clear what we've come here to do.CorinneAll right, what's your Butter?VirginiaAll right, my Butter is, I am breaking up with underwire bras. Breaking news. CorinneThis is big news. VirginiaYou've all been wondering. I'm not totally breaking up with them because I haven't quite found a non-underwire bra that works under every outfit. Because there can be a uniboob situation? But I have recently purchased some non-underwire bras. And I realize now that I don't know how I made it through the whole pandemic while still wearing underwire bras every day. Every day!CorinneMe neither! I feel like when we originally talked about bras on a mailbag episode, I recommended the bras that you ended up getting.VirginiaThe True & Co bras? CorinneYes! And you were like, “Oh, never heard of them.” VirginiaWell, you influenced me. And then Marielle Elizabeth really influenced me. And I bought a bunch of them and they're awesome.CorinneThey're really good. The sizing is super flexible. I can wear anywhere from a 1x to a 3x. And I have a big chest.VirginiaYou do have to look for the full cup. Because I ordered some that were like a half cup and they do not work if you are someone with a big chest. CorinneYes, they have full cups and regular cups. VirginiaSo you have to look for the full cup. I can only find them on Amazon right now. I don't know. CorinneThey're only on Amazon now. VirginiaIt's really irritating. I would like there to be other options. But the other one I'm wearing a lot of, is I have some of the Paloma bras from Girlfriend Collective. And actually, this one isn't the Paloma, it's the high necked? I don't know. But I like it because it feels just like a tank. Yeah, I don't know why it's taken me so long to get here. I will be 42 a few weeks after you hear this episode. It's taken me a while. But now, I realize that I don't have to accept permanent marks on the side of my body from bras. Like what was I doing? I think I thought I really needed more structure. I'll unpack it all in an essay at some point. But for now, I just want to report the liberation that I am wearing underwire bras much less frequently. And it's delightful. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAll right. Thank you all so much for listening to Burnt Toast!CorinneIf you'd like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

How we live is indelibly intertwined with the care and empathy we give to each other. What if we put care into helping Americans find homes and build dwellings, into keeping their bodies and minds sound, and finding meaningful and well-paid work? In this three part series, "To The Best Of Our Knowledge" and the Economic Hardship Reporting Project bring you real life stories about economic struggle in our time, as well as ideas for solutions.Original Air Date: November 19, 2022Interviews In This Hour: Do they need to know that I'm blind? — The work of care is vital. Why don't we pay like it is? — A sonnet for a lineworker — Barbara Ehrenreich on writing the American labor storyGuests: Andrea Dobynes Wagner, Angela Garbes, Rodrigo Toscano, Barbara EhrenreichNever want to miss an episode? Subscribe to the podcast.Want to hear more from us, including extended interviews and favorites from the archive? Subscribe to our newsletter.

After she became a mom, journalist Angela Garbes shifted her focus from food to the invisible, unpaid labor that goes into raising children. On the podcast Your Mama's Kitchen, beloved author Judy Bloom opens her mother's recipe box and reveals her kitchen anxiety dreams. After traveling the world at a young age, Priya Krishna presents global recipes for a new generation of eaters. Climate advocate Puneeta Chhitwal-Varma shares low-waste recipes for maintaining a healthy diet and planet.  Finally, Meredith Bell from Autonomy Farms balances raising animals and a daughter.

This hour on Disrupted, we're challenging long-held assumptions about parents and caregivers. First, Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, explains how care workers are undervalued. She touches on the way the early days of the pandemic spotlighted issues in caregiving and why the legacy of American colonialism in the Philippines influenced both her family history and the disproportionate number of Filipinx nurses who died from COVID. Then, UConn professor Kari Adamsons talks about her research on fathers and the problem with the way many people think about "traditional families." GUESTS: Angela Garbes: author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change Kari Adamsons: Associate Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut This episode originally aired on February 15, 2023. Disrupted is available as a podcast on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, TuneIn, Listen Notes, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe and never miss an episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, Lindy and Meagan go LIVE in front of an audience at Town Hall Seattle! Meagan talks about the dude she almost fought at breakfast the morning of the show. Lindy explains why she missed her family reunion in Norway - and why Meagan went without her. Then celeb guest / bestselling author / world-class gift-giver / NBA fan Angela Garbes plays a truly epic round of FMK with the nine Supreme Court justices. Check out Angela's appearance on The Daily Show With Trevor Noah, her TED Talk about what working parents really need from workplaces, and her two books: Like A Mother and Essential Labor.   TEXT ME BACK is a production of KUOW in Seattle, a proud member of the NPR Network. Our editor is Jeannie Yandel. Our senior producer is Brandi Fullwood. Our mixer is Jason Burrows.Love the show? Share it with your bestie, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts! Got a question or accolades for Lindy and Meagan? Join the TMB Text Club! Text BFF to 206-926-9955. Or email us at textmeback@kuow.org. You can also follow the podcast on Instagram and TikTok @textmebackpod. And for even more bestie connections follow Lindy and Meagan on Instagram at @thelindywest and @importantmeagan!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to the first ever LIVE episode of Burnt Toast! We recorded this on December 3, at Seattle's Town Hall. This was the official end of the Fat Talk book tour, but I promise it's not a regular book promo conversation. Because it's author Angela Garbes and Virginia, talking about books, but also talking about bodies and big life transitions and other good stuff.All of Angela's and Virginia's books, are available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!Don't forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to check out our new Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she and her guests give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism.  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Miranda and Sarah welcome Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change and Like A Mother, to the show this week to talk about drinking, sobriety, and the fuzzy, fine lines that we trace around substance use in motherhood. Though it feels like sober curiosity — or full on sobriety — is on-trend, a recent CDC study indicated that more women than ever are binge drinking and dying from alcohol-related diseases. How should we think about drinking and self-care? What does my choice say about your choice? With holiday gatherings looming, Angela — and a few brilliant listeners — helps us think deeply about how to manage it all with or without drinking to help (or hinder) us. Links: Angela's Substack Angela's Washington Post piece about her sobriety  CDC Study about women and alcohol-related mortality Atlantic Article on Wine Moms  Virginia Sole-Smith on Sugar Highs Sophie Lucido Johnson on Instagram Monday N/A Gin Studio Null N/A Bubble Join our Patreon!

This whole episode is a segment and gets quite philosophical. Celebrate us (but don't look at us!) as we describe how we eat on birthdays and holidays. We are anti-cinnamon roll and pro-scone as we bemoan demagnetized fridges and promote Eating Kingly. Spilled Milk Podcast: Now with extra air! Molly's Now but Wow! - Angela Garbes's piece in WaPo about getting sober Support Spilled Milk Podcast!Molly's SubstackMatthew's MusicProducer Abby's WebsiteListen to our spinoff show Dire DesiresJoin our reddit

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Colleen Reichmann - licensed clinical psychologist and eating disorder specialist with lived experience with anorexia, founder of Wildflower Therapy, and author of The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice From Two Therapists Who Have Been There. Colleen is also an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and HAES, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.In this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages. We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode. Find out more about Colleen's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Subscribe to her Substack here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full: Colleen Reichmann: But I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. I had such rage. Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period.  I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.INTROLaura Thomas: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Colleen Reichmann.Colleen is a licensed clinical psychologist practicing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She works at her group practice, Wildflower Therapy. She has lived experience with anorexia and this experience sparked her passion for spreading knowledge and awareness that recovery is possible. She is now an eating disorder specialist and has worked at various treatment facilities as well as authored a book, The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, advised from two therapists who have been there.She's an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and health at every size, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. So in this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages.We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode.We're also going to be talking about raising embodied kiddos towards the end of the episode, so you can also just skip forward and listen to that part. And Colleen shares some of her really great advice as a mother and an eating disorder specialist psychologist about how we can help protect our kids' embodiment.But before we get to Colleen, I really wanted to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year and as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter and have a say in the work that we do here as well as ensure that I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app and a deep dive on helping kids have a good relationship with sugar..  All of those articles I've already written and you can read at laurathomas.substack.com. And if you're not yet totally convinced, then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help. So this reader and listener wrote: “I want to support the work you're doing as I think it's really important and I believe that you should be paid for your work.” I agree! “I value the model of subscriber direct support rather than ad revenue. I really like all your comments and interviews on the podcast about internalised capitalism and how it affects our views of things without us even realising. Thank you for spending your valuable time and skills to do all this research and writing it up.I would love to see you talking about all of this in mainstream newspapers, TVs, magazines, and other media. It's such an important topic and I really hope you get more and more moment  for your work. Also on a personal note, you are helping me change my children's lives for the better by educating me about all of this. Really appreciate all that you're doing.” Such a kind review, thank you to the person who emailed that in, you know who you are. So yeah, it's £5 a month, or £50 for the year, and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com. Or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked, just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. All right gang, here's Colleen.MAIN EPISODE Colleen, can you start by letting everyone know a little bit about you and the work that you do?Colleen Reichmann: Sure. So my name is Dr. Colleen Reichmann, and I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and an eating disorders and body image specialist with a small group practice in Philadelphia. We see people virtually and in person, there's 5 of us, we all focus on body image and eating disorders and then sort of sub-niches within that community and and one of mine is also perinatal mental health. That's me professionally. I'm also the co-author of the book The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery and a speaker and a writer of other things, and then just a mom, somebody with lived experience of an eating disorder, as well as infertility and IVF. And I have two IVF babies, Ezra and Marigold, who live with me, and two, like, very chaotic dogs, and I live with all of them, and my partner, outside of Philadelphia.Laura Thomas: Wow, there's, yeah, loads of different parts of your identity, I suppose, that I'd love to dig into and talk to you about, but I'd love to start by talking about your journey to parenthood. You mentioned there that you had your babies through IVF and I know you talk really openly about this, uh, on your social media platforms and on your Substack. And I'd love just to help orient the listeners a little bit to some of your experiences, if you could share what that journey has been like for you. Colleen Reichmann: For some reason for me the piece about having both of my babies through IVF feels really important to share. It almost just feels like a lot of my parenthood, like my identity hinges on, it just feels so integral to who I am as a mother at this point and a parent, so I feel compelled to make it like, I have it in bios and even my partner at one point is like, why do you have like your professional psychologist and then also IVF mom?And I was like, I don't know. It just, it feels like it factors so much into the whole lens that I view perinatal mental health at this point. So I was somebody who went through about 5 years of infertility. Once you launch into the process of  digging into what's going on with infertility, there's like a cascade of interventions that happens, and mine was pretty standard,. And looking back, I just kind of, like, fell into the cascade and did what everybody said to do.I have, like, just different questions now about the process.  But essentially, I did rounds of medication, medicated cycles, and then IUI is kind of, like, the next part of the process. And we had multiple failed IUIs, which is interuterine insemination. And then when you have enough of those, you know, failures, the next step is IVF. Which I would joke with my partner and call it the…what did I call it? What's like the team, you know, in high school, there's like the…varsity! I was like, well, I'm varsity and fertility now because I'm in the IVF process. Laura Thomas: You've graduated on to the next step. Yeah, I guess that you need some sort of like levity in amongst what sounds to me to be like a, an extraordinarily heavy process otherwise..Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. I think infertility and especially, I think IVF is its own specific form of trauma, but infertility is very traumatic in my opinion. And for me, there was like this specific part of it that felt traumatic that I had this whole history of an eating disorder, like a decade long and part of the reason I had…just reasons to recover or reasons to get into a more stable place and having children was one of them.And so it felt like a slap in the face, like I did all the work that I didn't want to do for many years. And I just felt like, I was promised something by professionals, even though that's not true. Like, it was just, it was discussed a lot in sessions.Laura Thomas: No, but I am, I'm just sitting here reflecting on how many times I've…you know, I, I'm not sure that, like, leveraged that is quite the right phrase, but you know when, when people ask me about what are the long term impacts on my health of, of my eating disorder, you know, I will say fertility is, is one of the, one of those long term things.I can see how that's really a double edged sword to say something like that, because, you know, further down the line, if that person goes through the motions of recovery and does that really excruciating work, and then comes out the other side and their fertility…and, and we don't know if I'm not trying to insinuate that people's infertility is necessarily related to their eating disorder or not, but I hear what you're saying is that you were promised this prize at the end of, of eating disorder recovery and it wasn't there for you.And that in and of itself must have been so painful.Colleen Reichmann: It's so painful. There was a specific instance that stuck in my mind. When I was in, I think it was high school or maybe like early college, but really young and I was sitting with a therapist who was also trying to kind of like leverage fertility or I would say trying her best to motivate me, in a way that backfired because I was overly, I was just not in a place to be motivated at that point.But she asked like, do you want to be skinny or do you want to be able to have kids one day? And I remember like…yeah, I remember just saying “skinny”, like looking at her and, it haunted me for like all those years of infertility. I had that in my mind, that like session and that exchange and I was like, I did it.I guess I brought this on myself and I, you know, I said that and I…just like the whole thing was just very complex and painful, and it felt like, yeah, just a twisting of a knife and I… but also like I did it to myself, and it was just a really, they were like devastating years, the years of infertility.Laura Thomas: And it sounds like so much self blame there as well. It's no one's fault yet I can imagine that that adds another layer of sort of pressure and complexity and pain to the situation that was already really upsetting.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah,Laura Thomas: So how did it play out from there? What was the sort of next step, if you will, through these years of infertility?Colleen Reichmann: Well, once I started the IVF process, I ended up actually getting what's called ovarian hyper simulation syndrome. So,  I produced like a lot of eggs and then got really sick after IVF, I was actually hospitalised. I then had a lot of embryos from that, which is like, such a great thing, but also was arguably, like, a little bit aggressive, the IVF treatment that I got. But anyway, so we went through the process of several failed frozen embryo transfers and then several transfers that ended in miscarriage and then ended up at some point – after I moved to Philadelphia, because we, I was doing all this while I was living in a different state and then we moved and relocated – and I remember saying, I'll do it. I'll try one last transfer and then I think I need to either pause or just stop this for right now and find another way to pursue happiness. Like, I have to…this is consuming everything. I'm becoming like a husk of a person, like I'm just infertility. And so then that transfer ended up being my now three year old son, Ezra, but I was so burned out by that point that I, when I took the pregnancy test after I had the, like, the two week wait and everything, I left it on the bathroom sink and went to like fold laundry because I was just so sure that it wasn't going to be positive. And then I remember when I came back and saw it, I didn't…my mind after just like years and years and years of only negatives was like, I can't, it must have been a full 60 seconds where I was just like, What's this? Like, what? I could, I could not compute.And then, yeah, after I had him, I did another embryo transfer, another miscarriage, and then my now one and a half year old daughter, Marigold, came after that. Laura Thomas: Wow. There's such a lot to process in there… such a wild, wild roller coaster by the sounds of things. And I can, yeah, I can totally see why you would be in that state of disbelief and kind of not allowing yourself to really let it wash over you, that this thing that you'd longed for for such a long time was, was real.I could imagine that there was a kind of sense that it could be taken from you at, at any moment. And so allowing yourself to just get in touch with that must have been, yeah, putting yourself out there to, to let it be real. You also mentioned, in amongst your IVF journey that there were some losses, some pregnancy losses. You've written really beautifully about pregnancy loss, body image and grief, and specifically about miscarriage as a form of ambiguous loss. This is a concept that I find really helpful just in body image work, body embodiment work generally. But I wondered if for anyone who was unfamiliar with that concept, if you can share that, what that is and what that means and looks like in the context of pregnancy loss.Colleen Reichmann: So ambiguous loss…I guess the simplest definition would be loss without any real closure, loss where there's not…not that there's ever a clear cut path, but where there's a less, even less of a clear cut path than normal from loss to acceptance. And I definitely think miscarriage and pregnancy loss falls underneath that  umbrella, for sure, just because there's often loss, with no tangible evidence of ever having anything.Other things, of course, in our society fall under ambiguous loss, like loss where it somewhat, it feels like a death, but the person is still physically present, like if somebody has dementia or, if you're estranged from a family member, things like that. But with miscarriage, I think the concept of ambiguous loss also really connects with the concept of disenfranchised grief, which feels so important, to me, in the discussion of it all.Laura Thomas: I haven't heard that term before. I would love to unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Okay, so disenfranchised grief is essentially…it's grief that's not, like, publicly accepted. It's grief that's not sort of socially acknowledged and interpersonally and socially mourned. So, a lot of times, I like to call grief, like, if you lose a family member, sometimes I'll call it ‘Tupperware Grief' because people, at least at first, hopefully, like, show up with tupperware containers and dinners. Then disenfranchised grief, like that of a miscarriage is more, like, there…oftentimes there's no big show of support. Like, there are no, like, tupperware dinners or people showing up. People don't know how to talk about it even, even less than they know how to talk about just…Laura Thomas: Regular death.Colleen Reichmann: yeah, like, normal grief.And oftentimes when you have a miscarriage, there's also that added component of not having even shared, if it was an earlier miscarriage that you were pregnant. So you're going through this, like, life altering, awful grieving process alone, but you know, you haven't even shared that there's something to grieve and it's just confusing and sad and it's a really specific form of grief, I would say.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think as a collective, we do so poorly with grieving, you know, as a society, it's privatised, it needs to be neat and tidy and, for example, if somebody dies or if you have a miscarriage or, you know, there are any of these types of life events. We rarely get time off work or leave or anything to just have the space and the time to process some of what's happened to us.I think, you know…what you're saying is there's a sort of additional layer to it where if it's an invisible loss or it's…I don't know, something that, yeah, intangible, I suppose to, to other people…where does that grief belong? There's nowhere to put it really. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and so much of grieving that's helpful, like so much of what I think helps grieving people is like physicality and like the presence of others and showing up… Laura Thomas: Community, yeah.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, like, and I'm, I'm not going to take this from you, like the sadness. I'm going to sit with you in it and I don't have the right words because normally there just are no right words.So, like, let's let you feel the sadness and I'll be here next to you. And with disenfranchised grief, that's almost, like,  gone. Like, there is just none of that. Laura Thomas: Yeah. Going back to this idea of ambiguous loss, how do you think that can help us, you know, understand or process our experiences in some way? Colleen Reichmann: You know, I think even the term . Like, even when I just had that knowledge that there was a word for it, that felt so affirming. So just, even understanding, like, that's what you're going through and maybe letting that sort of propel you to reach out, if possible, to people who feel really safe, even just one or two. I can't think of anything just more important for the grieving process of pregnancy loss than some, like, I don't know, catalyst to reach out and share to people who feel safe because that was something I definitely…at least two of the miscarriages just totally had an in silent, like, didn't really share with almost anyone and then changed my process for the third and I had…I remember it was just awful like they always are, but like, I had really beautiful showings of support from friends, like, cards and…I remember one friend sent flowers and then, like, two months after sent another bouquet and was, like, still thinking of you. And I was really touched by that because I was like, oh, it's like, not only is it, would it be a grief that's, like, totally unseen, but even with normal grief, a lot of times you get, like, the initial show of support and then it phases out and this person just is, like, still here, I still love you, you know, like, I know it still hurts. And that was all because I just tried to navigate it differently and asked for help that last time.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think what…you know, what you're speaking to is this idea around grief that we have to follow a strict protocol, right? Like there's that initial period where you might be allowed to, you know, completely fall apart at the seams, but then you are expected to, you know, do that within the, I don't know, the two to three days that your boss allows you off of work and then afterwards you have to contain your grief, or at least make your grief more palatable to people. And what you're saying is that – I'm sort of reading between the lines here, but there is no timeframe for grief and when it's…when you've had a chance, well, it's never going to go away, is it, but you know, what you're saying is that, yeah, two months down the line, just having someone acknowledge that your pain is still there, that it's still valid, that it's, that someone sees you and is, is holding you. That's so powerful to have that, but in our society, yeah, like you have your allotted time frame for grieving and after that, sorry, no more flowers, no more cards. No one's going to check in on you or give you time off work. I don't know why I'm so like, hellbent on the work thing. Colleen Reichmann: It's so real though. Like, I think during one of my miscarriages, I remember there was a country that happened to grant, I think it was three days off to people who had pregnancy loss. I don't…do you know what country that is? Because I remember it was like in the whirlwind as it was all happening to me, and I was so like in a haze, but also aware of like, that's awesome.And three days, like, and I can't believe we don't even have, there's no three days here. That's for sure. But also like, yay. That's really nice. That's being acknowledged. But three days is nothing like it's an…I don't know, it was just, but the work thing. So it's so real that it's just incredibly difficult to show up to things like work when you're, like, in the haze of grief.Laura Thomas: Well, and I think it just, it speaks to how much society under capitalism dehumanizes our experiences and we are given our allotted time to grieve then you're expected to get back to work and be productive and if your grief spills over into your work, then you know, you're going to have to say something about that. I, I don't know which country it is. I know that they've had conversations about it here in the UK, about having some sort of leave for pregnancy loss and other kinds of losses, but  nothing that I know of that is formal at this point. But also again, yeah, like really a few days off work is probably not going to cut it for most people.And you know, alternatively, some people might actually find it really helpful to be at work and be around people and, and kind of taking their mind off of it. So yeah, it's not… there's no one right way to, to mourn or to grieve. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, so true.Laura Thomas: I also did an episode a little while back with Jennie Agg, who wrote a book about pregnancy loss called Life Almost, and just kind of how there are a lot of unanswered questions around pregnancy loss and infertility.And I'm going to link to that in the show notes for people who haven't heard that, because I think that's also a really helpful resource if yeah, if this is something, a conversation that you need to have more of in your life right now. I also wanted to talk to you a little bit about…I guess you called it body loathing. You talked about this sense of really loathing your body that you had in relation to miscarriage. And if it's okay with you, I'm going to read out something that you wrote as part of a Substack post and I will link to that as well. And you wrote: “The only thing that makes sense, to me at least, is to allow all of these emotions and thoughts to wash over you. Yes, this includes intense body loathing. Don't try to fight it or even shake free from it, at least at first. Honour that these feelings are because this loss, the loss that many others won't even know about is real. It's real and it's excruciating and it's evidence of love.And sometimes when grief is this big and things hurt this badly, we need a place to funnel the pain. If body loathing is the place for you in this moment, that's okay. That has to be okay.” Can you speak to why this idea of allowing body loathing is so crucial because I think it's so counter to the narrative that we are told whether that's about body image in relation to like weight and shape concerns, or, you know, where we're told like, you know that you have to come up with like positives that you like about your body or even in the context of pregnancy related body changes, pregnancy loss, we're told like, well, your body did this amazing thing even if you didn't, give birth. That, oh, well, at least you know, you can get pregnant or like, you know, there's always this like positive spin put on it and, and so it just felt really refreshing for me to, to read, like, no, you're allowed to hate your body and you're allowed to just be really angry with it, and feel let down by it and feel betrayed by it.So yeah, I just wondered if, you know, from a therapist's perspective, if you could explain why that is so powerful and crucial.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, that, that positive spin felt so offensive to me, especially through that journey in fertility and then pregnancy loss. Like and it just felt like everyone, like, and people were, of course, coming from a good place, but a lot of times it almost felt like…but you will, like, keep going, and I have so much hope for you, and, and, which is, like, maybe sometimes what I needed it, but a lot of times I was like, this is just so painful and like devastating and there's a lot of fear here that my whole life something that I've like wanted is not going to happen and I almost feels like you, you cannot tolerate sitting in it with me.And you're not the one going…like, I'm the one actually like, so if you can't tolerate even being a bystander, you know, that's so upsetting,  , and that the idea of, like, allowing yourself to just hate your body and be really mad at it, when it comes to infertility and pregnancy loss, it almost reminds me of, like, the…the chronic illness community often talks about, like, the eating disorder messaging on social media about, like, appreciating your body and loving your body and the function of it and how that feels really invalidating because, like, if my body…if I…what if I don't I appreciate it?What if I'm like, it feels like it's failing me? What if it doesn't function, “like it's supposed to”? Where do I fall in all of this? I feel like I related to that a lot during this process of like, and I'll speak for me just personally, because I also don't want to say other people feel this way, but I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. And I was just, like, I had such rage. And I was like, I just felt like it, it needed to be felt and I needed to be like, no, I don't, I don't need to connect with it right now.Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period. And if I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.I want time away. I want to, like, hate you. And I do. And that's, that is allowed, at least for me. And then, you know, some of the people that I work with, it's…there's something, like, affirming about that being just full permission, legalise hating your body.Laura Thomas: Yeah. I think, you know, we talk a lot about the concept of being sort of positively embodied and, kind of having this mind-body connection and being attuned to what's going on in our bodies. And I also think that there needs to be space for the fact that sort of disengaging or being disembodied is also protective and powerful and is a coping mechanism.And okay, maybe it's not sustainable forever, but there are times where that, where you just need to be able to check out. Just disengage and it sounds like that was part of your, your process at least, and, and it might be a helpful thing for other people to hold on to, especially in the face of like messaging around…appreciate your body and think about what it can do and, and so on.Like I can, yeah, totally see how that reads really badly when you're in something like that.Colleen Reichmann: Also, I do think some people might find that helpful for pregnancy too, so that it's helpful maybe in pregnancy loss, but also pregnancy can really just be an awful time for, like, to live in your body for some of us, so…that was another time in my life, which is interesting, because I just, there's so much devastation about the losses, but both pregnancies that were completed. I white knuckled it, is the best terminology I can use. I just, like, got through and they were just really hard experiences, probably the hardest physical experiences I've ever had in my life. Like, far beyond, you know, more challenging and uncomfortable than when I was in, like, the depths of the eating disorder.I felt like it was helpful. And I know I've heard other people say this too, to like, be allowed…which is an interesting dichotomy, because I was so grateful, like, I wanted the…I was like, everything in my life had led up to that moment, and I wanted those babies so much, and so, like, hated all of it, pregnancy was just so hard in my opinion. So allowing people to really – if they need to, be really, like, unhappy and disengaged from their body during that time, too, feels like an unpopular message, but one that I think is, like, kind of important.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it can, I mean, I know that there are additional layers if you've experienced, you know, pregnancy loss and gone through IVF because, you know, all of that trauma is stored in your body, right? And then you're adding something that is so desperately wanted and at the same time it can feel…I guess it can kind of be activating of everything, all of those other experiences that you've been through emotionally as well as the physical toll that that pregnancy and birth and, you know, everything that goes on in that sort of, especially first year or two years afterwards. It's, yeah, it's so much and…similarly to baby loss. Pregnancy loss or baby loss, we're not given space to grieve…for the grief that I think is an inherent part of pregnancy and childbirth and being a parent in late stage capitalism, like, just all of it.Because, yeah, you know, you have your kids. So Colleen, why are we still talking about it? You should be happy and just getting on with your life. That's the message that we're so often given. Oh, your body did this amazing thing. That's true. And that was a very difficult experience. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. And people say like, for things like birth trauma, so often you hear again, this is, I guess, goes with that toxic positivity, but like, well, as long as you got your baby, as long as you got a healthy baby, and I'm like, that's so dually insulting to both parents who don't have “a healthy baby” at the end, like, whose babies have, you know, physical or medical issues, and then also to people who did experience, like, trauma, or it was like, you know, they're just things didn't go as planned are also allowed to feel things and to have grief. The main theme here is toxic positivity is, like, really problematic for this stage of life.Laura Thomas: It doesn't serve anyone. And I think that connects back yeah, back to kind of what you were saying about being given permission to just loathe your body in the face of, you know, otherwise messaging that, just tells you to love your body and appreciate the things that it can do. I think we need to make a lot more space for these tensions, these complicated feelings.So not to be like, well, you have your babies now! But also I did want to talk to you a little bit about parenting from the perspective that, you know, you are someone with lived experience of an eating disorder and also an eating disorder therapist raising these children and, I love the messages that you put out around, you know, protecting their embodiment and their relationship with food.And I'd really love it if you could share, you know, a couple of the messages that you feel are most important to pass down to your kids to, I suppose, help disrupt that intergenerational transmission of body shame and disordered eating. Colleen Reichmann: I think about this every day. One thing that I do want to make sure I say, because I just…I feel really strongly that there's a lot of pressure around this generation, like our generation of moms, to break intergenerational toxicity or messaging, and I just feel really strongly that you don't have to be perfectly healed to do that.Laura Thomas: Yes, 100%.Colleen Reichmann: You can be, like, still really struggling and be breaking, like, those intergenerational messages. I think that's really important to know. And also – this might even be, like, a less popular take – but that to not put too much pressure on yourself to break, like, all, like, maybe your role is breaking, maybe you break these ones, and then over there, you're still working on that, or those are, like, you're, like, just, I don't know, I think there's a lot of weird pressure now to be these, like, totally healed mothers.Laura Thomas: There is. And I'm so glad that you said that. I think not only is there a lot of pressure in the form of often, like, you know, things that we should say or do or these, like, scripts that you often read on social media. There's a lot of those and some of them can be really, really helpful. Some of them less so, but I've been thinking a lot about this idea of how sometimes we need to say and do a lot less.Colleen Reichmann: Mm hmm.Laura Thomas: And how that's also okay. You don't have to, like, you know, do like, have all the little scripts memorised. But what might be a good starting point is if you don't talk shit about your own body in front of your kids. Like, if you just don't do that, that, that might be all that is needed.There are helpful things that we can do, of course. But, yeah, I really appreciate you just kind of giving that…that caveat that, yeah, you, you don't have to be all, have everything all figured out. It's enough to be kind of thinking and reflecting and and not saying the shit things.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and that…I feel like that is huge. That alone is just so monumental, the shift of like not saying negative stuff about our bodies or other people's, like, it's actually pretty easy once you get…like, it's easy to start to not like, comment on people's bodies, like, once you really get into the hang of it, like, in any direction, like, not comment…compliments or negative things.So that's huge. And at this point, I do also want to say they're one and three, so I'm probably so freaking annoying to, like, parents of older kids. Like, I think I know what I'm talking about or something when I've been in this for like three years.Laura Thomas: You and me both. You and me both!Colleen Reichmann: They're like, what do you know?But for right now, my feeling from what I've seen is that it's almost, like, away from bodies and food. There's messages that are, like, more important. Like, than even the things you say about bodies and food, like, one of the ones that I feel most strongly about, and I say to them, I try to say it every day, is like, I'm so happy you're in this world.Like, I am so happy you're here. The things that you add to my life, I, like, can't even put into words, because I just feel like that's a really, like… there's something very protective about that message, like at least one person in this world is like, thinks like the sun rises and set, like, like, she is just so happy that I'm here, like, that's…and that's also, I like to tell people that because I feel like it's really also easy, like, instead of being perfectly healed and the, you know, the most knowledgeable about all the body positivity things, like, focus on making sure they feel like your just delight in their presence that doesn't have to do with their appearance, you know.Laura Thomas: Yeah, that idea of taking delight in the fact that they're there and they're in your life and, you know, they're gonna absorb that energy as it were. I love that.And also I was just gonna make the caveat that I'm also sometimes displeased to see my child and that's also okay if you have those. Especially at like six o'clock in the morning when I'm like, you're supposed to still be asleep. So yeah, I didn't want that to sound like, uh, an imperative.Colleen Reichmann: I think there was this research, I could be wrong, but I thought there was like research that you just have to do it for like 5 or 10 minutes a day, and that can be fundamental to self esteem building, but I also don't know if that's true. I feel like I could have made that up, but I think, so it doesn't have to be all day long.Laura Thomas: Don't fact check, Colleen.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, just trust me. But, like, in a similar sense to that, I also think another thing that's just so helpful for, like, our kids and their bodies, is the way we talk about sex and their body parts, like, using the medical terms for body parts and not being…like, I talked in another podcast about how I recognised with my daughter when I was saying the word vagina, that I have felt, vaguely uncomfortable at first. And I was like, whoa, well, there's nobody in her life right now that's gonna like, show her how to feel comfortable and like that my body parts are all allowed other than me. I need to kind of step into that, own it.And so I got a book, like, uh, the Pop Out Vagina Book or something. And we, like, read it every day and I was like…that's another really kind of basic, easy way to show them, this is how to just feel comfortable and, like, safe in your body.Laura Thomas: I love that. I'm going to get the link to that book and put it in the show notes for anyone else who's kind of…yeah, because I mean, I think our generation, we were like given all of these kind of like cutesy code words for labia and vagina and of course it feels uncomfortable because it's the first time that we're really having to use those words in…and teach other people about those words.So, of course, it would feel uncomfortable. I love that you're normalising that. And yeah, there's tons of really cool books and resources that you can use to normalise that. I wanted to ask you just really quickly about one sort of food related message that you shared on, I think it was a Reel. This is a message that you want to instill into your kids where you've said that food is not just fuel. You're allowed to eat for boredom, for pleasure, to self soothe. Your appetite isn't scary for us. Ever. I just love this message so much and I just wanted to hear you kind of unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I think my hope is to just make food a really… like, you're allowed to interact with food in the ways that are innate to all of us, and you're never going to be micromanaged, and, like, I will never micromanage you, and I hope that you don't feel the need to micromanage yourself as you get older. Because we all, like, that is a very healthy and okay, like, human drive is to use food we have for, like, you know, ever to, to celebrate, to mourn, to self soothe at times, or hunger, for things other than hunger, like it's.. just hope to be able to foster an environment where it's all allowed and it's never, like, there are never nonverbal or verbal messages that, like, your appetite's scary or, you know, I have a problem with you interacting with food. Like I just really want to be protective of their relationship with it.Laura Thomas: I think that the line that really, really resonated for me was that piece that your appetite isn't scary for us, ever. And I also just wanted to acknowledge that  for a lot of people I know listening to the podcast and who read the newsletter, their kid's appetite does feel scary and overwhelming to them.And I just wanted to say, you know, we see you and that is the soup that we're swimming in. So it's totally understandable that you feel like that. And something that, you know, when I'm doing workshops and things on embodied eating, I ask parents to look for the signs that you can trust your child, look for, you know, the signs that they know how to trust their own bodies and think about what we can learn from that. So I'll offer that. I don't know if that's helpful, but I just wanted to acknowledge that yeah, our kids' appetites can be scary sometimes. I'm with you, Colleen. Like, they shouldn't be, but it's the messaging that we've been indoctrinated into thinking.Colleen Reichmann: Like it is very counterculture to say like, your appetite isn't scary and you're allowed to eat to self soothe. So I totally empathize and understand why people do feel like that fear…and it comes from a place like think about the stakes that we feel like we're under with this, like, the stakes that they're trying to sell us are like you're not a good mom or parent if you don't manage food and…yeah in this way or their weight. And that's just scary for everyone,   so I have so much empathy for people trying to break free.Laura Thomas: Yeah. But even just again, you know, going back to what we talked about before about not having to be perfect with this stuff, but even, you know, saying to your kids, I trust your appetite, even if you're not 100% there yet. But I think there is something so powerful if you could at least, you know, in giving that message at least.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah.Laura Thomas: All right, Colleen, this has been so great. Like I said to you off mic, there are so many different ways that I felt like we could have taken this conversation. We could have just talked about parenting stuff. We could have just talked about the grief stuff, but we tried to squish it all in. So thank you so much for being here.At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it could be anything. It could be a show, it could be a literal snack, whatever it is. So can you share with us what have you been snacking on lately?Colleen Reichmann: Yes. Well, thank you for having me. First of all, this was such a great conversation. Okay. I have two. I have a literal snack. I've been loving is these Trader Joe's chocolate sea salt graham crackers that are…Laura Thomas: Stop. I'm so, I'm so like…last Christmas, my brother sent me, like, a huge care package of stuff just from Trader Joe's and it was all their, like, crunchy great snacks and we can't get them here. So, yeah, they sound amazing.Colleen Reichmann: They're so good. They have like, they have it down with the snacks. Laura Thomas: They're really on point with their snacks, yeah. Colleen Reichmann: And those are great for like, I like to have them, especially while I'm reading, which is the other thing I'm snacking on, which I wrote it down, so I did justice to the actual title. I'm rereading…it's called, Like a Mother, A Feminist Journey Through The Science and CultureLaura Thomas: Oh, it's Angela Garbes.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, yes.Laura Thomas: I haven't read that, but I've, yeah, I've read her follow up book, which is Essential Labor. I don't know if you've read that. Oh, so good.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I've read that one. I really like both of them. I honestly like, they're just…they're the type of thing you have to read. I'm re-reading this one because I'm like, I feel like there's so much amazing stuff in it and I, oh my gosh, I love. Yeah, her writing is just, incredible. And the way she writes about motherhood is so different than what I've seen elsewhere. Laura Thomas: Oh, man. Yeah. I know. I have thought about going back and reading her first book after coming to her through Essential Labor, and her Substack is great as well if, yeah, if anyone is…I'll link to that in the, in the show notes. So, okay. Yeah. You're making me think I need to go back and read that.  So my snack is an illiteral snack this time. So there is another Substack newsletter called that probably everyone is sick of hearing me talk about because I link to them like every week in our like weekly community threads. Ruby Tandoh is one of the writers for Vittles and she did this like deep, deep, deep dive into London ice cream culture and all the different kind of ice creams from…that are not just like gelato and ice cream and like the things that you hear a lot about. And she tried like, I don't know, something like 350 different kinds of ice cream all all across London. She narrowed it down to like a top 16. So this is a really long way of telling you that my snack is one of the ice creams that she talked, I picked, I think it was like number 14 or 15 on the list and it's called Vagabond ice cream. And they do these vegan, like, choc ices. I don't know, what do you call them in the States? Like, choc  blocks or some, I don't know, some like, Do you know what I mean? And then it's got, it's got like a layer of chocolate around it. What is that called in the States?Colleen Reichmann: Like an ice cream sandwich?Laura Thomas: No, because that's like, that's like a cookie, right? With cookies on the, on either side.Okay. Someone, I'm sure someone in the comments will let us know, but the flavour is like a peanut butter ice cream and then the chocolate has bits of pretzel around it. So you've got that salty, sweet, crunchy…like it's a textural delight, for anyone who is like a sensory seeker, that's yes, very, very good. Colleen, would you mind sharing just quickly where people can find you and your work?Colleen Reichmann: My website is just ColleenReichman.com and then I have an Instagram which is @DrColleenReichmann.  , I tinker around on TikTok under the same username. I struggle with making those, like, educational, though. A lot of them are just silly. And let's see…I started a Threads because everybody's doing it. So I jumped on the bandwagon. Same username. And then I have a Substack, which is Musings From A Mama, which I'm trying to figure out a way to write regularly because it just brings me such joy to write about the complexities of motherhood. And then my email is just colleenreichmann@gmail.com.Laura Thomas: Oh, cool. I don't know that anyone's ever shared, like, straight up shared their email before, but I love…Colleen Reichmann: Yeah!Laura Thomas: Just get in touch, everyone, just…Colleen Reichmann: Come on over.Laura Thomas:  No, I really love your Substack and I'm glad to hear that you're going to be thinking of ways to write more often. So yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes.Colleen, it's been so great to talk to you. Thank you so much.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, thanks for having me. OUTROLaura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI last week: How Do You Deal With Clothes That Don't Fit Anymore?* The Audacity of Fussy Eating Advice* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram* Hey Ella's Kitchen - Food Play Doesn't Solve Systemic Inequity FFS This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

This hour on Disrupted, we're challenging long-held assumptions about parents and caregivers. First, Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, explains how care workers are undervalued. She touches on the way the early days of the pandemic spotlighted issues in caregiving and why the legacy of American colonialism in the Philippines influenced both her family history and the disproportionate number of Filipinx nurses who died from COVID. Then, UConn professor Kari Adamsons talks about her research on fathers and the problem with the way many people think about "traditional families." GUESTS: Angela Garbes: author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change Kari Adamsons: Associate Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut This episode originally aired on February 15, 2023.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Can we still love the work of Hemingway, Polanski, Naipaul, Miles Davis, or Picasso? Should we love it? In this unflinching, deeply personal book that expands on her instantly viral Paris Review essay, “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” Claire Dederer asks: Does genius deserve special dispensation? Is male monstrosity the same as female monstrosity? Does art have a mandate to depict the darker elements of the psyche? And what happens if the artist stares too long into the abyss? She explores the audience's relationship with complicated artists, asking: How do we balance our undeniable sense of moral outrage with our equally undeniable love of the work? In a more troubling vein, she wonders if an artist needs to be a monster to create something great. And if an artist is also a mother, does one identity inexorably, and fatally, interrupt the other? Highly topical, morally wise, honest to the core, Monsters is certain to incite a conversation about whether and how we can separate artists from their art. Claire Dederer is a bestselling memoirist, essayist, and critic. Her books include the critically acclaimed Love and Trouble: A Midlife Reckoning, as well as Poser: My Life in Twenty-three Yoga Poses, which was a New York Times bestseller. Poser has been translated into eleven languages, optioned for television by Warner Bros., and adapted for the stage. Sonora Jha is the author of the memoir How to Raise a Feminist Son and the novel Foreign. After a career as a journalist covering crime, politics, and culture in India and Singapore, she moved to the United States to earn a PhD in media and public affairs. Dr. Jha's op-eds, essays, and public appearances have been featured in the New York Times, on the BBC, in anthologies, and elsewhere. She is a professor of journalism at Seattle University. Her new novel, The Laughter, has opened to rave reviews from The New York Times, Washington Post, Kirkus Reviews, and others.  Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Monsters The Elliott Bay Book Company

Author Angela Garbes joins the pod today to dive deep into her book “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change” and discusses the economic, political and ideological systems that have shaped the way our society sees care work. She shares: Why care work and mothering is so undervalued in American society. How lack of compensation for care workers is a uniquely American problem. Mothering as a verb instead of a noun How the majority of Americans believe in more support for domestic workers/why our government does not represent us any longer. How both the wealth of our country and our views on care workers comes from slavery.  The surprising median wage that nannies in America make and why we need to look at our own biases when it comes to paying them. Why being a care worker is life changing work. Why mothering is the earliest public health intervention we could have. How to remain hopeful when it comes to making changes to the system. If she thinks we will ever see paid family leave in America and what we have to do to get there. Follow Angela: https://www.instagram.com/angelagarbes/ Buy Angela's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Labor-Mothering-Social-Change/dp/0062937367 Thank you to today's podcast partners!  OUAI: 15% off site wide when you use the code: PRETTYSMART Cozy Earth: Up to 35% off site wide when you use the code PRETTYSMART

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Movies, books, and TV shows tell us we should've already found our people — those close, always dependable, tried-and-true forever friends — by the time we're adults (and if we haven't, there must be something wrong with us). But it's often easier said than done. Where do you find close friends beyond childhood or school? Is it even possible? Like many people navigating adulthood, Lane Moore thought she would have friends by now. Sure, Moore has plenty of casual acquaintances and people she likes hanging out with, but she wanted to find her people — the ones she lists as her emergency contact, the ones she calls when something funny or horrible happens, the ones who bring over soup over when she's sick as she would do for them — her chosen family. You Will Find Your People is the groundbreaking guide to making and keeping the friends we've all been desperately waiting for. In this follow-up to her best-selling book How to Be Alone, Moore shows us how to make real friends as an adult, cope with friend breakups, navigate friendships with coworkers, roommates, and family members, and provides real tools on how to create healthy boundaries with friends to deepen your bonds. Through hilarious personal anecdotes and hard-won wisdom, Moore teaches us how to finally work through our fears and past hurts, to bravely cultivate and maintain the lifelong friendships we deserve. Lane Moore is an award-winning stand-up comedian, actor, author, and musician. Moore is the creator of the hit comedy show Tinder Live, and the bestselling author of How To Be Alone and the forthcoming You Will Find Your People. Moore's writing has appeared everywhere from The New Yorker to The Onion, and she is the former sex and relationships editor at Cosmopolitan, where she received a GLAAD Award for her groundbreaking work expanding the magazine's queer coverage. Moore is the frontperson in the band It Was Romance and lives in Brooklyn with her dog-child, Lights. Angela Garbes is the author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, called “a landmark and a lightning storm” by the New Yorker. Essential Labor was named a Best Book of 2022 by both the New Yorker and NPR. Her first book, Like a Mother, was also an NPR Best Book of the Year as well as a finalist for the Washington State Book Award in nonfiction. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, and New York Magazine, and featured on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and Fresh Air with Terry Gross. A first-generation Filipina American, Garbes lives with her family on Beacon Hill. Lindy West is a former contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and is the author of Shit, Actually, the New York Times bestselling memoir Shrill, and the essay collection The Witches Are Coming. Her work has also appeared in This American Life, The Guardian, Cosmopolitan, GQ, Vulture, Jezebel, and others. She is the co-founder of the reproductive rights destigmatization campaign #ShoutYourAbortion. Lindy is a writer and executive producer on Shrill, the Hulu comedy adapted from her memoir. She co-wrote and produced the independent feature film Thin Skin. You Will Find Your People Third Place Books

This hour on Disrupted, we're challenging long-held assumptions about parents and caregivers. First, Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, explains how care workers are undervalued. She touches on the way the early days of the pandemic spotlighted issues in caregiving and why the legacy of American colonialism in the Philippines influenced both her family history and the disproportionate number of Filipinx nurses who died from COVID. Then, UConn professor Kari Adamsons talks about her research on fathers and the problem with the way many people think about "traditional families." GUESTS: Angela Garbes: author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change Kari Adamsons: Associate Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What if we started treating parenting like the real work it is? Podcast host and CEO Angela Garbes details how working families have evolved -- and how companies haven't -- and gives insight into what parents really need from their colleagues and workplaces. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The holiday season means schools go on break, and most kids will be at home for an extended period of time. The time off means a greater need for child care, but right now, child care and day care services are unaffordable for up to sixty percent of American families. As part of our ongoing series on caregiving, Erica Schwiegershausen, senior news editor for The Cut and author of the recent article, "Day Care is Broken," and Angela Garbes, author of the book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, join to discuss the state of child care today, and take calls from parents.

Bestselling author Angela Garbes (Essential Labor: Mothering As Social Change, Like a Mother) and Brooke discuss how the pandemic created a once-in-a-generation opportunity for us to rethink the ways in which we value domestic work. The two share why they've embraced leaning on others to help raise their own children, the ways their own mothers influenced their parenting styles, and why changing how we care for ourselves and our loved ones could actually change the world (no, really!).See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Eighty years ago, Congress formalized a 40 hour work week in the United States. That policy hasn't changed since then, even though today's workforce looks very different than it did in the 1940s. With so many people working from home these days or dropping out of the workforce altogether, is it time we rethink our employment laws? What if we worked four days a week instead of five? Would it completely upend our work culture? This week on Downside Up, Chris Cillizza is joined by Anne Helen Petersen, author of “Out of Office;” Angela Garbes, author of “Essential Labor;” and Charlotte Lockhart, founder of the nonprofit 4 Day Week - Global, to explore what the world would look if everyone works fewer hours. To learn more about how CNN protects listener privacy, visit cnn.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this final part of our series, we're talking about work — about the right to meaningful work, the search for jobs that pay enough to live, and what happens to people who look for work while also having a disability that's invisible to most.Original Air Date: November 19, 2022Guests: Andrea Dobynes Wagner — Angela Garbes — Rodrigo Toscano — Barbara EhrenreichInterviews In This Hour: Do they need to know that I'm blind? — The work of care is vital. Why don't we pay like it is? — A sonnet for a lineworker — Barbara Ehrenreich on writing the American labor storyAbout Going For Broke: The Care EconomyHow we live is indelibly intertwined with the care and empathy we give to each other. What if we put care into helping Americans find homes and build dwellings, into keeping their bodies and minds sound, and finding meaningful and well-paid work? In this three part series, "To The Best Of Our Knowledge" and the Economic Hardship Reporting Project bring you real life stories about economic struggle in our time, as well as ideas for solutions. Rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts.Learn more about the series at ttbook.org/goingforbroke.About the Economic Hardship Reporting ProjectEHRP supports independent journalists so they can create gripping stories, often countering the typical narratives. They then inject this high-quality journalism into the mainstream media, mobilizing readers to change systems perpetuating economic hardship. Learn more about EHRP here.About To The Best Of Our Knowledge”To the Best of Our Knowledge” is a Peabody award-winning national public radio show that explores big ideas and beautiful questions. Deep interviews with philosophers, writers, artists, scientists, historians, and others help listeners find new sources of meaning, purpose, and wonder in daily life. Whether it's about bees, poetry, skin, or psychedelics, every episode is an intimate, sound-rich journey into open-minded, open-hearted conversations. Warm and engaging, TTBOOK helps listeners feel less alone and more connected – to our common humanity and to the world we share. Learn more about the show here.

In this raw and enlightening episode, Meghan unveils the roles of "Good Wife/Bad Wife, Good Mom/Bad Mom" and explores the judgments behind them. In these candid and highly entertaining chats with First Lady of Canada, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, as well as Pamela Adlon, and Sam Jay, Meghan delves into the pressures of what it means to be a partner and a parent in this modern age. This episode also features authors Dr. Shefali Tsabary and Angela Garbes.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“I'm still trying to make sense of a culture of caregiving that ‘good mothers' are good caregivers…A ‘good mother' is someone who doesn't question or resist caregiving, whereas men are never socialized into that narrative.”Namrata Poddar Namrata Poddar writes fiction and non-fiction, is an editor for Kweli journal and teaches literature and writing at UCLA. Her work has appeared in several publications including Poets & Writers, Literary Hub, Longreads, The Kenyon Review, and The Best Asian Short Stories. Her debut novel, Border Less, was a finalist for Feminist Press's Louise Meriwether Prize, and is longlisted for The Center of Fiction First Novel Prize. Namrata joined Kaitlin in this episode to talk about: Her book, Border Less - a novel about the migratory journal of Dia Mittal,an airline call center agent in Mumbai who is searching for a better life. Becoming a Mother-Writer: Notes on Reconciling the Personal, the Professional, and the Political - an essay she wrote for Poets & Writers. How she experiences her mothering identity as a feminist living in a patriarchal society. More about Namrata Poddar: Website:http://www.namratapoddar.com/ (http://www.namratapoddar.com/) Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/writerpoddar/ (https://www.instagram.com/writerpoddar/) Related Resources: Find out more about Border Less -https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9781736176788 (https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9781736176788) Namrata's essay, Becoming a Mother-Writer | Poets & Writers: https://www.pw.org/content/becoming_a_motherwriter_notes_on_reconciling_the_personal_the_professional_and_the_political (https://www.pw.org/content/becoming_a_motherwriter_notes_on_reconciling_the_personal_the_professional_and_the_political) Camille T. Dungy's 2017 nonfiction book, Guidebook to Relative Strangers: Journeys Into Race, Motherhood, and History - https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9780393356083 (https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9780393356083) Angela Garbes new book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change - https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9780062937360 (https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9780062937360) Sylvia Federici, Revolution at Point Zero: https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9781629637976 (https://bookshop.org/a/86159/9781629637976) Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and give us a rating. This will help us reach more listeners like you who are navigating the joys and pitfalls of artistic and parenting identities. For regular updates: Visit our website:http://postpartumproduction.com/ ( postpartumproduction.com) Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/postpartumproductionpodcast/ (@postpartumproductionpodcast) Subscribe to our podcast newsletter on Substack:https://postpartumproduction.substack.com/ ( https://postpartumproduction.substack.com)

Parents and caregivers are undervalued in the US. The pandemic made that painfully clear. But it doesn't have to be this way. In today's episode, Dr. Becky talks to author Angela Garbes about how parents can lead a revolution to change how caregivers are valued and supported in our society. Upcoming Live Event: https://lp.goodinside.com/podcast-live-event/ Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2A Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. Today's episode is brought to you by the following sponsor: Frida Cold & Flu. Bedtime and sleep can be such a struggle. Then, add in a cold or a week of the flu... and all bets are off. That's where Frida Baby comes in - they know what it's like to be up all night with a sick kid. They have so many solutions to help you dodge the all-nighters this cold and flu season. Like the Frida Baby 3-in-1 Humidifier, Diffuser and Nightlight. Stock up on all of Frida Baby's cold and flu solutions, including the all-in-one Sick Day Prep Kit by using the code DRBECKY and get 20% off your first order at Fridababy.com

On the radio show this week we cover how (and why) to #RestoreRoe; where one fair wage & raising the minimum wage is on the ballot on the ways you can help; hear about a terrific new book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change; and we also cover the new report,The Blame Game: How Political Rhetoric Inflames Anti-Asian Scapegoating.   *Special guests include: Kelley Robinson, Planned Parenthood Action Fund, @PPact; Saru Jayaraman, One Fair Wage, @onefairwage; Angela Garbes, award-winning author of Like a Mother and also Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, @agarbes; and Cynthia Choi, Chinese for Affirmative Action, @CAAsanfrancisco 

Angela Garbes's first book, Like a Mother, looked at the science, myths, and inequities surrounding pregnancy and motherhood. Her latest book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, continues to examine obstacles and injustices faced by parents and other caregivers. In this book, Garbes also looks at her own family's history as members of the Filipino American community, many of whom are tasked with the least desirable caregiving duties.  On September 9, 2022, Garbes spoke with Shereen Marisol Meraji, award-winning journalist, professor at UC Berkeley, and founding co-host and senior producer emerita of Code Switch, NPR's podcast about race and identity in America. 

On this episode: Zak, Jamilah, and Elizabeth help a letter writer who is hurt by the cliquey moms in her parenting group. All the kids get along great. But the moms constantly make her feel like an outsider, despite her initiating conversation and planning hang outs. Zak, Jamilah, and Elizabeth share some tips for making friends with other parents, knowing your value, and ditching people who aren't giving you the time of day.  Then on Slate Plus, they discuss Angela Garbes' piece, The Morning Rush: Parenting at its Most Essential.  Join us on Facebook and email us at momanddad@slate.com to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today's show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes.  Podcast produced by Kristie Taiwo-Makanjuola and Rosemary Belson. Slate Plus members get a bonus segment on MADAF each week, and no ads. Sign up now at slate.com/momanddadplus to listen and support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode: Zak, Jamilah, and Elizabeth help a letter writer who is hurt by the cliquey moms in her parenting group. All the kids get along great. But the moms constantly make her feel like an outsider, despite her initiating conversation and planning hang outs. Zak, Jamilah, and Elizabeth share some tips for making friends with other parents, knowing your value, and ditching people who aren't giving you the time of day.  Then on Slate Plus, they discuss Angela Garbes' piece, The Morning Rush: Parenting at its Most Essential.  Join us on Facebook and email us at momanddad@slate.com to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today's show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes.  Podcast produced by Kristie Taiwo-Makanjuola and Rosemary Belson. Slate Plus members get a bonus segment on MADAF each week, and no ads. Sign up now at slate.com/momanddadplus to listen and support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's “Post Reports,” a conversation with author Angela Garbes about her new book, “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change.” Read more:In 2020, author Angela Garbes found herself at home taking care of her two daughters, clinically depressed and unable to write. It was a time when people were told to stay home, unless you were an essential worker. “But I remember sitting there being like, ‘What about me?' ” Garbes told “Post Reports” editor Lexie Diao. “What about parents? What about mothers? Like, what we are doing is nothing less than essential. … The pandemic has exposed that without care, we're lost.”Garbes's new book is called “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change.” The book examines the history of caregiving in America through the lens of the author's own Filipinx identity, and makes the case that caregiving is an undervalued and overlooked labor that disproportionately relies on women of color.

We rightly celebrated people like health care workers, teachers, and grocery store employees during the heart of the pandemic as the essential workers who kept our country going. But Angela Garbes, author of “Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change,” tells Gloria that we need to think of parents, and especially mothers, as essential workers, too. They get into why we devalue the labor of mothers and caregivers, how we are in a pivotal moment right now with regards to care in America, and what it'll take to create the social change we need. Plus, Angela lays out the ways in which the overturning of Roe v. Wade will further stress the already threadbare care system in this country.   Show Notes This podcast is presented by Neighborhood Villages, and is brought to you with generous support from Imaginable Futures, Care For All Children by the David and Laura Merage Foundation, and Spring Point Partners.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this show and all Lemonada shows: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.   Laugh, cry, be outraged, and hear solutions! Join our community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nooneiscomingtosaveus.    Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

They're dealing with a consumer that they've never marketed to before and they don't really have the tools to do that. They don't know what's going to speak to that consumer. And it's also fatphobia, right? Because the brand doesn't want to center fat people as their customer. So they have to put everybody together in order for it to be okay. You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter. Today I am chatting once again with the fantastic Mia O'Malley. Mia is content creator on Instagram and Tiktok (@MiaOMalley and @plussizebabywearing). Mia has been on the show before, so you’re probably already a big fan. I asked her back today because we needed to have a deep dive conversation about everything happening at Old Navy with plus size clothing.Also! Substack has asked us to try out a new format for this episode. Paid subscribers, you’re getting the full audio and full transcript, below. (So nothing has changed, just consider this your July bonus episode!) Free list folks: You’re getting the first chunk of my conversation with Mia (both audio and transcript), but if you would like the full version, you’ll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Reader subscriptions enable me to pay guests like Mia for their time and labor, so please, consider investing in these conversations if this is work you care about. When you get full access to my conversation with Mia, you’ll get way more juicy details on the whole Old Navy situation. And you’ll find out the two brands we think are doing a surprisingly GOOD job on plus size clothes right now. I bet it’s not who you think! PS. You voted and the results are in: We’ll be reading ESSENTIAL LABOR by Angela Garbes for the August Burnt Toast Book Club! Mark your calendars for Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern.Episode 55 TranscriptVirginiaHi Mia. So we'll start by reminding listeners who you are and what you do.MiaI'm Mia O'Malley. I'm a content creator on Instagram. I have my account @MiaOMalley where I share a lot of resources for fat and plus sized people and some of my own style and life. And then I have an account called @plussizebabywearing on Instagram and I'm @plussizebabywearing on TikTok.VirginiaLast time, we had a pretty wide-ranging conversation where we talked about the intersection of fat activism and momfluencing, about finding a fat-friendly health care provider—all sorts of stuff. But this time, we have a very specific mission. When this news story broke, I was in the middle of writing my book, and I had no time to think about it, but you were on it. Your Instagram is this amazing resource. And I was like, Thank God, Mia will come on and explain to us what is happening with Old Navy and plus size clothing. I mean, it's a mess. How did this all start? MiaSo in August of 2021, old Navy launched what they called BODEQUALITY, and it was like, “the democracy of style.” They were going to offer sizes 0 to 30 and XS to 4x at the same price and then they would have it in 1200 stores. And they would be rolling out sizes 0 to 28 with no special plus size section. They also wanted us to know that there were going to be mannequins size 12 and 18. The CEO of Old Navy said, “It's not a one time campaign. It's a full transformation of our business and service to our customers, based on years of working closely with them to research their needs.” The marketing campaign included a TV commercial with Aidy Bryant from SNL and Shrill.VirginiaSo, none of this was subtle. This was a very full-throated, “We are here for plus sizes.”MiaWell, yes and no. The campaign was not subtle, but the campaign was also confusing. So many people did not even realize what BODEQUALITY meant.VirginiaWell, they made up that word. MiaAnd they made sure to include all diverse body types which, in general, is great. But it's part of a watered down body positivity, where we're not really getting to the heart of the matter and helping the people that are marginalized, that need to be helped and need to be lifted up. A lot of people did not recognize that this campaign meant that plus sizes were being carried in stores. It included people of “diverse body types,” it said “democracy of fashion.” But what does this really mean to someone? Does this mean that I can get my size in your store? It's not really clear. This is me editorializing, but I just think: We couldn't have a campaign that was just for fat people. We have to do it adjacent to thin people.VirginiaIt gives them this cover, because they're using this aspirational rhetoric, instead of saying explicitly, “We have screwed over fat customers.” MiaExactly. It just was not clear enough to the fat consumer that they were going to be able to access their clothes in store. It was muddled in the same way that body positivity gets muddled when we don't talk about the people that really should be centered in the movement. But as someone who has been critical of Old Navy in the past, even I wanted BODEQUALITY to work. We wanted it to be an example for other retailers and brands, that that this could be something they could do. Even though I had messages in my DMs talking about issues folks were seeing, I didn't really want to talk about it at first, because I wanted to see how far it would go. Well, less than a year later the Wall Street Journal reported that Old Navy would be pulling extended sizes from their stores. That article is a whole other thing that we can get into, too, because it's its own beast. VirginiaYeah, so that's what just happened, which blew this all up. It looked like they were blaming their sales dropping on the fact that they had added more plus sizes to the stores. That was the story out there, right?MiaYes, that's right. Suzanne Kapner—she wrote the article called “Old Navy Made Clothing Sizes for Everyone. It Backfired.” VirginiaI will say quickly, as a journalist, the headline is not Suzanne's fault. We never get to pick our headlines. However, the article itself is also problematic as you can now explain.MiaThere are a few issues with the article. Most specifically, it doesn't include comments from anyone in Old Navy corporate. They took quotes from other interviews that they had done, but Old Navy didn't comment on this article itself. So a lot of what they had was attributions to someone who worked in the store, a PR person, a city analyst—different things. They also have this quote from Diane Von Furstenberg, who spoke at the the Future of Everything Festival and they put that front and center. VirginiaSo all we really know is that Old Navy sales dropped, right? We don't really know why, or whether it is reasonable to blame that on plus sizes.MiaCorrect. First of all, they did not give this even a year to work. The CEO, Sonya Syngal, said on an earnings call that they “overestimated demand in stores” and they launched too broadly. They "over-planned larger sizes, with customer demand under-pacing supply. Someone else in Old Navy corporate said it was “a realigning of store inventory.” Which is not at all what the article says but sort of points to, they had an inventory problem. VirginiaWhich, it's been a pandemic! Everyone shifted to online shopping. They haven't yet gotten the customers back in the stores, period. Getting inventory right, regardless of sizing, is sort of a moving target right now. MiaWhat we're hearing from customers at Old Navy though, is they weren't even aware that plus sizes were in stores. That’s possibly because of the way that these stores are laid out. They took away or they didn't have a plus size section for a long time. But the plus size shopper is used to going to a specific section for their clothing. In this “democratizing of fashion,” Old Navy put everything together. And in some cases that made it harder for people to actually find their size. You had a lot of packed racks. You've had people struggling to find their sizes across the board. I'm also hearing that although Old Navy says that they went to great lengths to look at their fit when they did this inclusive sizing, that the fits are completely off for many, many items. So, Old Navy denim that people were used to buying for years, totally changed. People's sizes completely changed. Rockstar jeans, which they had been buying for over a decade, are now a completely different size. And in many cases, people were having to size up two or three sizes thinking that their body has changed in some drastic way, when really Old Navy sizing, completely changed in many items. VirginiaThat makes me wonder how inclusive they really intended to be. This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com

I think it's important for people to recognize that no matter how fascinated you might be by a Black person’s hair, we are not an exhibit or curiosity.You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.Today I am speaking with anti-racism activist, writer, and educator Sharon Hurley Hall. Sharon is firmly committed to doing her part to eliminate racism as the founder and curator in chief of Sharon's Anti-Racism Newsletter, one of my favorite Substacks. Sharon writes about existing while Black in majority white spaces and amplifies the voices of other anti-racism activists. Sharon is also the head of anti-racism and a special advisor for the Diverse Leaders Group. I asked Sharon to come on the podcast to talk about a piece she wrote on the newsletter a few weeks ago about the CROWN act, Black hair, and the ways in which white people perpetrate racism against Black people for their hair. We also get into how to talk about hair and skin color differences with your kids, which I found super, super helpful and I think you will, too. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us in your podcast player! It’s free and a great way to help more folks find the show.And! It’s time to decide what we should read for the next Burnt Toast Book Club! I’ve culled through all of your suggestions and narrowed it down to these five (mostly because the Substack poll-maker limits me to five choices). I was going to stick with fiction because it’s summer and I’m in beach read mode, but I made an exception for Angela Garbes because, it’s Angela Garbes. (Which is to say, if we don’t pick her for August, we’ll do it for September or October!) You have until the end of this week to vote. I’ll announce the pick on Tuesday. (The discussion thread will go live Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern!) Episode 54 TranscriptVirginiaHi Sharon! Why don't we start by having you tell my listeners a little more about yourself and your work?SharonOkay, so I am an anti-racism writer and educator, a former journalist, and I have been writing about anti-racism-related stuff for longer than it appears. I actually wrote my first article in 2016, but I wasn't doing it consistently. I launched an anti-racism newsletter in 2020. So it's just been going for just about two years now. In it, I share my perspectives as a global citizen. I was born in England, I grew up in the Caribbean, I lived in England as an adult. I visited the US. I lived in France. I've been in a lot of places, and I've experienced racism everywhere. And so I bring that lens to what I write about. You know, quite often we think what we're experiencing is the only way it's being experienced or is unique to the location that we're in. And my experience is that there's a lot of commonality in how these things operate in different places. VirginiaOh, that's so interesting. I have British and American citizenship, but I've lived my whole life in America. And I definitely tend to think of racism as this very American issue. But as you're saying that, I'm realizing how incredibly reductive that is. Although Americans certainly are a big part of the problem. SharonYes, but—or yes and, I suppose. Let's not forget that all of this started with the British people—well, British and Europeans—who colonized everywhere.VirginiaSure did. Yup. Absolutely. SharonThere are many places besides the USA that share this history of enslavement. Barbados and the Caribbean being among those places. So there are similarities, there are commonalities, I think. It operates in a particularly American way, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in other places. Because it does. It's sometimes less visible. And of course, because so many other places don't have a gun culture, you're less likely to end up dead as a Black person, even if people are being racist towards you. VirginiaYes. We add that extra layer of things. Well, I am having you here today to talk about a piece of American legislation because you wrote a really excellent piece for your newsletter. I want everyone to subscribe to your newsletter and to be supporting your work. Often you're putting things on my radar that I have missed and I just really appreciate the education that you do. This was a piece you wrote recently on the CROWN Act, which I have to admit I wasn't even aware of as something that was happening. So for starters, for folks who aren't who aren't familiar with this, can you tell us a little bit about what the CROWN act is and what inspired it? SharonThe CROWN Act stands for Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural hair. I believe it was (first) sponsored by State Senator Holly Mitchell from California. And then other states have since passed similar laws. There is also a federal act, which was passed by the House earlier this year. The idea is that Black people should be able to wear their natural hair, and not have it be a problem. In all post-enslavement societies, in all post-colonial societies, in many white majority places, the way that our hair grows out of our head is a problem for people. It can be seen as not professional. There are all sorts of ancient ideas about what Black people's hair is and isn't, that play into the way that it is treated. It's not just about being able to wear your hair, the respect piece is important as well. Because you'd be surprised how often—I mean, I worked in England for 15 years and there were people that would come and say, “Ooh, your hair! Let me…” (For those listening, I am running my hands through my hair.) “Your hair,” you know, “It feels so different. Let me…” VirginiaLike it’s okay to touch you. SharonIt's okay to just touch my hair. So there has historically been this thing where Black people's natural hair, and all the various styles that we put our hair in, were not seen as worthy of respect, were not seen as professional, were not seen as acceptable. All of that comes out of that whole white supremacist ideology.VirginiaWhat I really appreciated in your piece is you explain why the ability to have legal redress for microaggressions is obviously really important, given this really problematic history that you've just sketched out for us. But you also wrote, “Why the hell do we need to legislate for Black people to enjoy autonomy over our hair?” So, talk a little more about that piece. SharonWhite supremacy has weaponized Black hair in many ways. It's been a matter of control that extended to using hair as evidence of the reasons why Black people deserve to be enslaved, because our hair was seen as like wool, animal-like, somehow bestial, somehow not right. You could think of the Tignon Laws, which I think were in Louisiana, where Black women's hair was supposed to be covered. Because otherwise the white guys would not be able to control themselves. There was this idea of overt sexuality, as well.VirginiaThat being your problem to control as opposed to… SharonYes, our problem that they needed to control. Black women and Black people being what they are, we've made lemonade out of lemons. That's why you get these fabulous headdresses and head ties and so on. They look absolutely wonderful. But you know, the the original idea was to control it, to cover it up, to hide anything that would make us look more human and more beautiful. Often in the past, women have been encouraged to cover themselves up so that they don't get assaulted. This is another facet of that. As I've said, I don't know any Black person who's worked in a white majority space, especially a woman, who has not had some white person in their office space, make free with their hair. And you know, I would not do the same if the situation were reversed. I want to add something here, which is that a lot of white people say, “Oh, I went to a country in Asia, and people were fascinated by my straight blonde hair.” And I say, that is not the same thing, because the history is different. The agency that you have historically had over your own body is different. Coming out of a culture where we have not had that agency, somebody putting their hands in our hair lands very differently. VirginiaYeah, absolutely. It's always going to be a different experience. But you're right, people do make that comparison. I would imagine also there's some comparisons to when you're pregnant and people feel like they can touch your stomach. And that is also very violating. But that's a finite experience. You're only going to be in that mode for nine months. I'm not saying it's okay that it happens, it shouldn't happen. But this is something Black people are being asked to navigate daily, without other people adjusting. SharonI just actually want to address that particular because: Imagine if you're a Black pregnant woman.VirginiaOh god, yes.SharonBecause I was a Black pregnant woman. So people would be putting their hands in my hair, but they'd also be touching my belly. That felt extremely violating. VirginiaYes, it is. I mean, it just is.SharonAnd in a way that I couldn't even fully articulate at the time as to why it bothered me so much. But I know now why it bothered me so much. VirginiaDo you mind sharing a little bit about how you do navigate those moments? SharonAt the time when it used to happen most often, I was not often in a position to navigate that safely. Because people would then regard me as being the problem, regard me as being the angry Black woman, regard me as making something out of nothing. Now I would be in a position to say something like, “Because of the history of enslavement, this does not feel good to me. This feels like a violation.” And I could say it as plainly as that. And I think if you said it like that people would would pause and think about it. I've not often had the chance to do that, but it's definitely something that I would do the next time it happens. And of course, you know, the other weapon is a glare. A glare, the right kind of glare. Sometimes you can see someone coming towards you and you just give them that look and they think better of it. It's the bomb look, the look that you give your kid when they're about to do something that's really problematic and you don't even want to have to talk about it and it stops them in their tracks. Sometimes you need to pull that look out.VirginiaYou need that look. I mean, and again, not to equate the experiences, but I did notice that getting touched while pregnant happened much less the second time. I think because I had learned that look a little. I think I was much clearer with the nope, you're not allowed in this space. I was wondering if we could also talk a bit about texturism, that’s a concept you hit on in that piece as well. How do white people perpetrate this, and also how does it play out within the Black community?SharonOkay, so I'm going to start with the second question first. This is another offshoot of enslavement, of that white supremacist ideal and ideology. The societies that we grew up in that say that “white is right” and that's what you aspire to. And it is true that in those times and even subsequently, if you had lighter skin, if you were closer to looking European, you had more opportunities open to you. One of the ways this revealed itself was in your hair. So you will hear people—I mean, I certainly did when I was growing up. I would hear older people talk about good hair, right? And good hair meant it had a little wave in it, it was closer to what they would think of as European hair. This happens in Black majority Caribbean countries, in Black communities all around the world, and in so many post-colonial spaces. What is also interesting is that many white people feel more comfortable with those people that they see as having more proximity to them, than the people that are darker skinned, that they see as having less proximity to them. I'm not sure they're always consciously aware of it, but I know that it does happen. For example, you can look at things like casting in films and TV series, and who gets what kind of roles. Where are the darker skinned people? What kind of roles do they get? What do the lighter skinned people with the wavy hair get? Who are the people that are representing Black people in the ads? Who are the models? I mean, it's not 100 percent that way, but if you were to look at it, you would see that there's definitely this idea that having that wavy hair texture, and that lighter skin can buy you some additional visibility and acceptability. So, it plays out in what hair is deemed acceptable and professional within the Black community and beyond the Black community. VirginiaI'm thinking, as you mentioned casting, how even when a very dark-skinned Black person is cast in a role, it's then the subject of, “look at how we're breaking ground, look at what a big deal this is.” It has to be this huge conversation because it's so rare. So the assumptions prove the rule here, because you're still in a place where that's news, when that shouldn't be news. I'm hoping we can also talk a little bit about how to navigate this conversation with our kids, because I do think hair—and of course skin color, as well—is often one of those physical differences that little kids—I'm thinking like three, five, seven year olds—will notice and point out about people when they meet them. And often white parents have this instinct to rush in with, “That's not nice, don't say anything.” And, maybe they're speaking in terms of “don't comment on that person's body, because that's rude.” But it also reinforces to white kids, that there's something wrong with Black hair, that this is something we can't talk about, that this is off limits in some way. SharonI remember when I was living in France and I was driving somewhere with a white friend and her kid who was maybe three or four at the time. He was fascinated by the fact that my skin was a different color. So he asked if I'd stayed out in the sun too long. And his mother was absolutely mortified. And I laughed, because, you know, he was three or four, he wasn't coming at it from a hurtful point of view. And I explained that people had different skin color. That's just how we are. I often think when you're dealing with these things, going with the factual is the way to go. A recognition that the differences exist, but no suggestion that they mean something positive or negative in terms of how we interact with those people, you know? You have to, at the same time, avoid suggesting that there's something negative about having darker skin or Black skin, but also avoid suggesting that there's something particularly positive about having white skin. You have to do both things. Because kids are going to notice, kids are going to see it. I think for young, very young kids, that kind of thing doesn't matter to them. We have to not shy away from the fact that there are aspects of society that are going to see these things as major differences and treat people differently. But we can also teach them that this is not something that they themselves have to do or perpetuate. VirginiaSo in that moment, what would you have wished your friend had said to her kid? It sounds like you handled it beautifully, but it shouldn't be your job to handle it. What do you want white parents to be doing?SharonDefinitely not to come down on the kid like a ton of bricks, suggesting that they've done something wrong in even asking the question. Possibly reframing the question. Parents have to educate themselves so that when they get these questions, they have the answers. Because I don't know that that particular parent would have even known what to say or how to explain it. VirginiaI think often, the reason we panic is because we are having our own stuff called out, we're suddenly realizing, Oh, I don't have the right language for this. And that's on me. I should have done that work. SharonIf you're going to raise anti-racist kids, you have to be an anti-racist parent. And that doesn't mean that you're not going to make mistakes. It means that you recognize that this is the route that we have to travel for all our humanity. And for equality and equity for all.VirginiaAnother way I get asked this question often is how to respond if your three year old says, “Why is that lady so fat?” You know, comments on body size, and I always go with something like, “Bodies come in all different shapes and sizes—”Sharon—And colors!VirginiaAnd colors! Hair comes in all different colors and styles and, you know, hair comes in different textures. You can just normalize that without getting into some intense thing about it. SharonEspecially for young kids. You have different conversations with your kids about things like this at different ages. If your kid is three, you don't necessarily have to give them the whole history of colonialism, you know? If your kid is 12, that might be different. VirginiaYou should be doing that, absolutely. SharonExactly. Because we we teach our kids at a very young age about stranger danger and unwanted touching. And it's a good time to say that that also extends to touching people's skin and hair when they have not asked for it. I think that is something that would fit very nicely with that lesson, right? VirginiaYeah, to just say, “No one can touch your body without permission. You don't touch other people's bodies without permission.”SharonExactly. VirginiaAnd fortunately, young children will give you plenty of opportunities to reinforce that.Sharon Because they're curious. They're always, you know, sticking their hands in things. VirginiaBlack hair is obviously such a huge topic. What haven't I asked you that you think is really important for us to be thinking about? SharonI think it's important for people to recognize that no matter how fascinated you might be by a Black person’s hair, we are not an exhibit or curiosity. Just don't touch the hair. You know, just don't touch the hair. Some people are so traumatized by it, even if you asked to touch the hair, they'd still be upset. We're coming out of a history where Black people for centuries had no agency. Where in some countries, we were put on display. And those very features that you now want to treat as a curiosity were the things that were displayed. So, it's not just about it being wrong in this moment, it's all the generational trauma that is awakened by that. So it's really best avoided. Google is available, if you want to find out more. If you have a real Black friend—and I'm not talking about somebody you work with that you don't even sit with at lunchtime. I'm talking about somebody that's actually in your life—then maybe you can have those more in depth conversations with that person. But if we're talking about your colleagues and casual acquaintances, for best results, just keep your hands out of their hair. I was just going to add that from the point of view of your workplace, what you can do is you can look at what your policies say and make sure that they are equitable in terms of what's seen as professional. Do your bit to change things where you are. VirginiaThat's a great idea. And I just wanted to share your rage for a moment that it is 2022 and we are having to say don't touch people's hair. And we are having to pass laws to protect people from this. I mean, it is astounding to me that body autonomy is not more of a—well, I live in the United States where they're taking bodily autonomy away in so many different ways right now. SharonYou know, if you think about how the country started, it started by taking stuff away from the people that were here. It started by taking autonomy away from the Black people they brought in. It started in a time when women didn't have very many rights at all. Yeah, and all of this was still the case at the point when the country became the country.VirginiaRight. SharonSo maybe it's time to rethink what the country is and should be and could be, instead of going back to what was the norm in 1776.Virginia Which protected only one type of person. SharonI mean, exactly, exactly. It's the 21st century, we should be beyond that. VirginiaDefinitely. Well, I so appreciate you giving us this education, taking the time to talk through this issue more. I think it's one that all of us can be doing better on. And encouraging us to think about how it's playing out in our workplaces, and our kids’ schools, all of that. Butter for Your Burnt ToastVirginiaWe wrap up every podcast with my butter for your burnt toast segment. This is where we give a fun recommendation of something we are loving or learning from right now. So Sharon, what's your butter?SharonWell, the funny thing about it, it's a little bit of a self promotion, in a way, because I've just started a new gig at Diverse Leaders Group, a brand new startup as the head of anti-racism. Our aim is to identify development support leaders at all levels. That's anyone wanting to lead the way to equality in their own lives and for their communities. We're starting with anti-racist leaders. So I'm pumped about developing community support and educational resources to help people really live anti-racism and create a more equal world for everybody. VirginiaThat's fantastic. My recommendation, related to our conversation about Black hair, is a kid's book that my both my daughters have really loved over the years called Don't Touch My Hair by Sharee Miller. It is a great story of a Black girl who has amazing hair and everybody when she walks down the street wants to touch it, and she doesn't like it. She uses her voice to tell people to stop and they have to listen. We talked about how with your three year old, you're not gonna explain all of colonialism, but you can start to talk to your three and four year old about how Black kids have to deal with this and your straight hair doesn't attract the same attention. So that was a conversation I wanted to be having with them. But they also relate so deeply to this experience of a kid getting unwanted attention, and how do you sort of say your body is yours, and so there's certainly a universal theme, as well as it being a great way to have this conversation and help kids understand this issue. So I wanted to recommend that. Sharon, tell everyone the name of your newsletter and anything else you want us to be following?. How can we support you? SharonMy newsletter is Sharon's Anti Racism Newsletter. You can support me by taking a paid subscription because one day I would like to run the newsletter full time. And you could also join the Anti-Racist Leaders Association, which I mentioned earlier and take the lead in fighting racism wherever you are. VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much for being here. I really loved this conversation. SharonThank you, Virginia. I enjoyed it, too. Thanks so much for inviting me.Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast! If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and tell a friend about this episode.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Our guest today is Angela Garbes. Angela is the author of the national bestseller Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change. Her first book, Like a Mother was an NPR Best Book of 2018. Angela's writing has appeared in the New York Times, The Cut, New York, Bon Appétit, and featured on Fresh Air and The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. You can follow Angela Garbes on Instagram here.Don't forget: We have a Patreon! Sign up for invites to special events, exclusive content, and bonus EIF episodes: patreon.com/everythingisfine Our show's Instagram is @eifpodcast. We're also on Twitter @theeifpodcast and Facebook. you can find Kim on her blog Girls of a Certain Age. You can find Jenn at Here Are Some Things. If you like the show, please rate or review it and don't forget to share it with your favorite 40+ friends. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Waves, Brigid Schulte, author of Overwhelmed: How to Work, Love and Play When No One Has the Time and director of the Better Life Lab, is joined by author Angela Garbes. They unpack the modern challenges of motherhood, further illustrated and then exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. They talk about Angela's new book, Essential Labor, how caregiving is seen as sacred, yet we make it so hard in the United States, and why we pay caregivers—a key part of our society—poverty wages.  In Slate Plus, Angela and Brigid talk about the subtitle of Angela's book: Mothering As Social Change.   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth with editorial oversight by Shannon Palus and Alicia Montgomery.  Send your comments and recommendations on what to cover to thewaves@slate.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We explore the hidden world around us — the sights, smells, tastes, sounds, and vibrations that are imperceptible to humans, but are perceived by various animals and insects. We talk with science writer Ed Yong about his new book An Immense World.Justin Chang reviews two films from the Sundance Film festival — now streaming — about relationships between a younger man and an older woman, Cha Cha Real Smooth and Good Luck to You, Leo Grande.Also, we hear from Angela Garbes, author of the new book Essential Labor. She wrote it after having to give up work during the pandemic lockdown, when she no longer had daycare. She says, raising children shouldn't be as lonely, bankrupting and exhausting as it is.

Congress comes to an agreement on gun control legislation, Lewis Black rants about the sudden rise of high-priced weddings in 2022, and Angela Garbes discusses her book "Essential Labor." See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Angela Garbes, author of ESSENTIAL LABOR and LIKE A MOTHER, in conversation with Julia Turshen.Follow-up links:For more about Angela and her work, head here.To sign up for Julia's newsletter, head here.For more about Julia + her work, head here.

In her book, author Angela Garbes makes the case that the work of raising children has always been undervalued and undercompensated in the U.S. Then came the pandemic, and everything got harder. We talk about how parents​ in the U.S.​ are often isolated, and left without a social safety net, and we contrast that to how domestic labor is handled in the Philippines.

Mothering is work. It's creative, it's exhausting, it can be financially crushing, and it is immeasurably rewarding. But always, it is work. Our guest this week is Angela Garbes, bestselling author of Like a Mother. Her new book, Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change is now available. About Essential Labor From the acclaimed author of Like a Mother comes a reflection on the state of caregiving in America, and an exploration of mothering as a means of social change. The Covid-19 pandemic shed fresh light on a long-overlooked truth: mothering is among the only essential work humans do. In response to the increasing weight placed on mothers and caregivers—and the lack of a social safety net to support them—writer Angela Garbes found herself pondering a vital question: How, under our current circumstances that leave us lonely, exhausted, and financially strained, might we demand more from American family life? In Essential Labor, Garbes explores assumptions about care, work, and deservedness, offering a deeply personal and rigorously reported look at what mothering is, and can be. A first-generation Filipino-American, Garbes shares the perspective of her family's complicated relationship to care work, placing mothering in a global context—the invisible economic engine that has been historically demanded of women of color. Garbes contends that while the labor of raising children is devalued in America, the act of mothering offers the radical potential to create a more equitable society. In Essential Labor, Garbes reframes the physically and mentally draining work of meeting a child's bodily and emotional needs as opportunities to find meaning, to nurture a deeper sense of self, pleasure, and belonging. This is highly skilled labor, work that impacts society at its most foundational level. Part galvanizing manifesto, part poignant narrative, Essential Labor is a beautifully rendered reflection on care that reminds us of the irrefutable power and beauty of mothering. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/alyssa-milano-sorry-not-sorry/message

"This to me is basic, but it feels like we've drifted really far from it in our culture. That to be a human, the basic condition of being a human is being needful. You know, like we need air, we need housing, we need food, we need companionship. We need all of these things. And somehow in our culture, it feels like you're asking for too much, if you need things, right, you're supposed to be super self-sufficient. You're supposed to be able to like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You're supposed to be able to like handle everything and it's just it's work. And it is it's too much for one person to do." So says author and journalist Angela Garbes, who in the first pages of her new book, ESSENTIAL LABOR, expands the concept of “mothering,” creating a tent for everyone, of any gender, who is engaged in the process of creation and care. This pretty much includes everyone. A first-generation Philipino-American, Angela makes the argument that the United States must re-orient the way we think about everything—the economy, in particular—to venerate the vital act of care, of tending to each other's needs, and of prioritizing the collective…otherwise we are lost. In our conversation, we touch on what this means for all of our lives, including the ways that women like me must come out of our shame pockets to talk about all the people who care for us—labor that has become largely invisible behind the veneer of our projections of what it looks like to be a functioning family in America. As I explain to Angela, our family would cease to work without Vicky, who is effectively our third parent. I believe Angela is right, that we need to be having these collective conversations first, in order to push culture to reprioritize against a new axiom of what really matters in our lives. MORE FROM ANGELA GARBES: ESSENTIAL LABOR: MOTHERING AS SOCIAL CHANGE LIKE A MOTHER: A FEMINIST JOURNEY THROUGH THE SCIENCE AND CULTURE OF PREGNANCY FOLLOW ANGELA ON TWITTER ANGELA'S WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In today's episode, pelvic floor and women's health expert Dr. Marcy Crouch and motherhood and mental health expert Alyson Hempsey talk with author Angela Garbes about the inspiration for her first book, Like a Mother, where Angela explores some of  the questions we have all probably asked ourselves, too: What is the placenta? How do we go into labor? Why is breast best?Like a Mother explores the science behind these questions, among others, that women have regarding everything from pregnancy loss, to complicated labors to postpartum changes, and why women deserve access to better care, support, and information. This was a fascinating, and eye opening, discussion on exactly what it means to mother, and how important the work of mothering is to society, something we are all well aware of in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic.See you on the other side!Connect with Angela GarbesWebsite | Instagram | Twitter | Publisher Selected Links From the Episode:“What Working Parents Really Need from Workplaces” TED TalkEssential Labor by Angela GarbesIf you would like to learn more about maternal mental health, navigating matrescence, and learn how to reclaim your identity in motherhood, Alyson's SOULtime guide is for you!Want more support, Mama?-Sign up for Early Access to Dr. Marcy's Postpartum courses- Use code "NMLB" for $5 off Alyson's SOULtime guide hereConnect With Us: We love to hear from you! Share your birth and postpartum stories or just say hi!Website | Send us an email | Instagram | Subscribe | Support the Show WE'RE DOING A GIVEAWAY!Steps to enter:1. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. That's it!***One winner announced each month!***WHAT YOU GET IF YOU WIN1. Dr. Marcy's Postpartum and Delivery Prep Courses2. Alyson's e-book, "SOULtime: A Guide on Reclaiming Your Identity in MotherhoodSupport the show

Raising kids is among the most essential work humans do, and yet it's rarely valued as labor. Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, guides us through a shift in mindset to help give mothering the value it deserves.

Raising kids is among the most essential work humans do, and yet it's rarely valued as labor. Angela Garbes, author of Essential Labor: Mothering as Social Change, guides us through a shift in mindset to help give mothering the value it deserves.

Angela Garbes is the author of the now-classic Like a Mother and her new book, which grew out of her New York Magazine cover story (about how the pandemic was disrupting women's lives) went viral and was shared by everyone from Melinda Gates to Elizabeth Warren. Angela didn't want to write another book about motherhood. But during the pandemic, when school and child care center shutdowns left her with nothing to do but mother, she witnessed all her frustrations and racing thoughts about the state of caregiving in America show up in newspapers, on the radio, and in Zoom conversations. During this time, many people came to understand—for the first time or with renewed urgency—that American life is not working for families. Angela's next book, Essential Labor, maintains that mothering is not limited to the people who give birth to children; it is not defined by gender. While “mother” is an important identity for many women who still provide the majority of care to children in America, no one cares for children entirely on their own. The pandemic revealed that mothering is some of the only truly essential work humans do. Without people to care for our children, we are lost. Garbes explores our history of care and how we got to where we are today: a wealthy country with an invaluable work force of women, most of them brown and black, performing our most important work for free or at poverty wages. Jess and Jess have so many questions for Angela- and she has answers....but in typical WeSTAT fashion, there are some incredibly vulnerable moments in this conversation as the three women explore what work is, what mothering is, and how we marry the two.**Angela's book, Essential Labor, goes on sale May 10, 2022. https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Labor-Mothering-Social-Change-ebook/dp/B09C64HQWWThanks to our sponsors and check them out for more information:ART International: https://artherapyinternational.org/Seward Group: https://www.sewardrealtygroup.com/Soul Speak Press: https://www.jessbuchanan.com/coachingSupport the show

Social activist Angela Garbes, author of the upcoming book ESSENTIAL LABOR: Mothering as Social Change, joins Jessi to discuss the essential work of caretaking. Caring for a child, a parent, or a spouse while keeping up a career was a challenge even before the pandemic. But now? It's a crisis. So many caretakers, especially women, have dropped out of the workforce because it's just too much. Angela shares her own journey, talks about how her life has been changed by her "pandemic pod," and offers insights she's gained throughout the last few years. Follow Jessi Hempel on LinkedIn Visit Angela Garbes on the web Join the Hello Monday community: Subscribe to the newsletter, and join the Hello Monday Office Hours conversation on the LinkedIn News page, Wednesdays at 3p ET.