Podcast appearances and mentions of Ruby Tandoh

Jacqueline Wilson's GIRLS books were a defining part of our childhoods, so how does the author's 20-years-on sequel (for adults!) match up? We discuss whether the books were a good influence and how her real life inspired her writing. Also this week, we dissect all the juiciest bits from Anna Wintour's Vogue doc, and question how 'guilty' Matthew Perry's long-time assistant was in his death. Plus, a round-up of our fave TV shows, and whether star ratings matter. Huge thanks to our sponsor Yonder, the incredible lifestyle credit card packed with rewards you'll actually *want* to use, from points to use towards your bill at the trendiest restaurants and bars in the UK, to experiences from the theatre to flights. Find out more at yonder.com/straightup Subject to eligibility. 18+ and UK Residents Only. T&C's apply.  We're also thrilled to be partnered with brand new quarterly newspaper The Pass, the only publication bold enough to ignore food influencer hype and give us properly honest London restaurant reviews. Subscribe here to receive the new issue and find out what to cross off, and put on, your list. DM us your thoughts on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠@straightuppod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or email us at ⁠hello@straightuppodcast.co.uk⁠ and as ever please, please, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify, lysm! There are still virtual tickets to our event next Thurs (26th) with the Trouble Club! Use our code STRAIGHTUP50 for 50% off! Reccs/ culture discussed:  Think Again by Jacqueline Wilson (the ‘Girls' series follow up) Jacqueline Wilson: the children's author who's now writing graphic sex for adults, The Times Jacqueline Wilson's girls seem depressingly unable to grow up, The Telegraph  In Vogue: The 90s, Disney+ In Vogue: The 90s review – Anna Wintour and pals offer up hour after hour of fabulous nothingness, Guardian In Vogue: The 90s review — proof of Anna Wintour's pulling power, The Times Anna Wintour: The Biography, by Amy Odell Confessions of former Vogue assistants, Amy Odell's Back Row (Substack) Did Matthew Perry's Assistant Have a Choice? Hollywood Veterans Aren't So Sure, Vanity Fair Why being a celebrity assistant is truly the worst job in Hollywood, Telegraph  The Assistant, BFI Player Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, Disney + How To Die Alone, Disney + We Might Regret This, BBC Nightsleeper, BBC Colin from Accounts, BBC Slow Horses, Apple TV English Teacher, Disney+ Cooking for People, Mike Davies  Cook As You Are, Ruby Tandoh

Cookbook authors reach for a few phrases that suck me in every time. If someone says, "I've tried it many other ways, but THIS way is the best! I can't veganise it!" - - I tend to believe them. Today we celebrate a brilliant book that won a Guild Award in the UK - Ruby Tandoh's 'Cook As You Are'. The book Simon edited which previously won the same award is Mark Diacono's 'A Taste of the Unexpected'. Ruby Tandoh's Gnocchi Recipe:1 packet of store-bought gnocchibuttercaperschili crisp oiltons of finely grated parmesanCook the gnocchi according to the packet instructions, remembering to reserve a few tablespoons of the cooking water.Meanwhile, melt the butter in a medium-large frypan. When it's molten, add the capers. Add in the chilli crisp oil to loosen, then add in the cooked gnocchi and pasta water. Serve on a bed of baby spinach (optional, this is my recommendation!) with a ton of grated cheese. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Food is for everyone, and cooking should be too. As a society, have we become too focused on the aesthetic of food and forgotten the joy of cooking, eating and sharing? Lucy Dearlove's series 'Kitchens' for podcast Lecker reminds us that kitchens come in all shapes and sizes, whilst Ruby Tandoh's 'Cook As You Are' shows there is recipe for even the least vibrant ingredients you have at home. Bobochacha Art Without Heroes, Mingei Prada Caffé Books by Ruby Tandoh 'Kitchens' by Lecker Subscribe to RELISH. by Sonder & Salt on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/sonderandsalt ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow the podcast for updates and video content ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! You can follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Harleigh on Instagram here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠follow Malaika right here. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Timestamps 00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:22 - Food highlights 00:16:18 - Cook as you are

Why do we call Nancy the queen of pistachios? What secrets can Ruth tell us about critic bait? And is Laurie really the only one of the three of us who loves tripe? Also, can food be too flavorful? These are just some of the things we're talking about in today's episode. We also discuss the vanity of cooking. We dish on show-off chefs and why Nancy says Thomas Keller and Massimo Bottura don't fit in that category. We talk about why we love Sarah Cicolini's Rome restaurant Santo Palato and the Pie Room at London's Holborn Dining Room. Plus, why chefs like Italy's Franco Pepe and Nancy use dehydrators. And could it be that writer and former “Great British Bake Off” finalist Ruby Tandoh is this generation's Laurie Colwin? In addition, for you, our paying subscribers, read on for bonus notes. But first, let's talk pine nuts. Three Ingredients is a reader-supported publication. To receive posts with bonus material, including recipes, restaurant recommendations and podcast excerpts that didn't fit into the main show, consider becoming a paid subscriber.A better pine nutWould you be shocked to learn that the pine nuts you're most likely using in your pesto come from China or Siberia?Nancy, of course, knew all about this. But Ruth remained ignorant until a few years ago, at a market in Italy she noticed that the pinoli were much larger than the ones she buys at home.Back in her own kitchen, she scrutinized the pine nuts in her freezer. (Pine nuts are filled with oil, which means that left in the cupboard they quickly go rancid. It's much safer to store them in the freezer.) Sure enough, the label said something about the various countries the pine nuts might have come from, and not one of them was Italy or the United States.She took out a handful and laid them next to the ones she'd bought in Italy. Half the size! Then she tasted them. Half the flavor! These days she buys her pine nuts from Gustiamo, which owner Beatrice Ughi gets from the west coast of Italy where Pinus Pinea trees, better known as Italian stone pines or umbrella pines, grow. They're expensive. And they're worth it. Pro tip from Nancy, who gets pine nuts from Sicily for her Mozza restaurants but also uses the smaller, more common varieties of pine nuts for big batches of pesto. Use pricey larger Italian pine nuts when you want to serve the pine nuts whole, as in the rosemary-pine nut cookies she serves at Pizzeria Mozza with her famous butterscotch budino — we've got a recipe below. And if, like Laurie, you were wondering why we don't just harvest pine nuts from all the pine trees grown in the U.S., here are two articles from 2017 that explore the issue: Modern Farmer calls “the downfall of the American pine nut industry, a truly embarrassing and damaging loss given that the pinyon species in North America can produce nuts (seeds, technically) worth upwards of $40 per pound.” The magazine cites a Civil Eats report that puts part of the blame on a U.S. Bureau of Land Management practice of clearing “thousands of acres” of piñon-juniper woodlands for cattle grazing between the 1950s and ‘70s because the trees were “useless as timber.” The pistachio queen dehydratesNancy practically lives on Turkish pistachios, which are smaller and more flavorful than the American kind. She's particularly partial to pistachios from Aleppo. There are many sources; one we like in New York is Russ and Daughters. Nancy also loves Sicilian pistachios. But as she discusses in the podcast, if you want to get the nuts both green and crunchy, you're going to need a dehydrator. “That is,” she says, “the best purchase I've ever made.” This Magic Mill is a favorite. Another unexpected chef who uses a dehydrator is Slow Food hero Franco Pepe, who is also Nancy's favorite pizzaiolo. She rarely spends time in Italy without making a visit to Pepe in Grani, his restaurant in Caiazzo outside of Naples. In fact Nancy is the one who persuaded restaurant critic Jonathan Gold (and Laurie's late husband) to come to Caizzo for a 2014 Food & Wine article in which he said Franco Pepe made what “is probably the best pizza in the world." Many others, including our friend and Italian food expert Faith Willinger, who first told Nancy about Pepe, agree.So what does a chef like Pepe, who insists on hand mixing his dough and calibrates his pizzas to show off the freshness of his region's ingredients do with a dehydrator? For one thing, he dehydrates olive and puts them on a dessert pizza with apricots sourced from the volcanic soil of Vesuvius. It's fantastic. Laurie talked to him for the L.A. Times about what tech can do to save pizza's future. Read about it here. The Colwin legacyRuby Tandoh! Ruby Tandoh! If you want to read the article we all love — the one that got Ruth to suggest that Tandoh might be this generation's Laurie Colwin — here it is. Note the excellent title: “The Studied Carelessness of Great Dessert: On croquembouche, Alison Roman, and the art of not trying too hard.” And just in case you don't know Colwin's work, here are two stories, one from the New Yorker and one from the New York Times, that talk about the Colwin legacy. As for Tandoh's Vittles — if you're not reading it, you're missing out. You can find it here.Mind and heartThat is Massimo Bottura trying to make Nancy happy. Which he always does.  You probably know that his small restaurant in Modena, Osteria Francescana, has three Michelin stars and was voted the best restaurant in the world twice on the World's 50 Best list and remains on its Best of the Best list. You might also know that he's a chef with an extremely interesting mind and a huge heart, who is deeply involved with feeding the hungry of the world.We've known (and admired) both Massimo and his elegant American wife Lara Gilmore for a while now. But although Laurie and Nancy had eaten at his Modena restaurant many times, Ruth was late to the game. This is part of what she wrote in 2017, after her first marathon lunch at his restaurant:Leave it to me to go to a four-hour lunch on a day of such intense heat the newspaper headlines all read “Dangerous even for the animals.”  (For the record, it hit 107 degrees.)  … We arrived parched and almost dizzy with heat.Within seconds, we'd forgotten everything but the pure pleasure of listening to Massimo and Lara discuss their various projects (a refettorio in London, another in Burkina Faso and a gelateria in a refugee camp in Greece) — and the meal they were about to serve us.Blown away. That's my instant review.  If you want more, keep reading.For another perspective on Massimo's food, Laurie wrote in the L.A. Times about the meal she ate at Osteria Francescana earlier this summer when the chef was revisiting and reconceiving many of his iconic dishes, including tortellini. “Bottura may break the form of a classic dish,” she wrote, “but he almost always brings the flavor back to the nostalgic tastes of his childhood.”Incidentally, Massimo and Lara have a new book, Slow Food Fast Cars, and they will be discussing it with Ruth on Monday night, Dec. 11, at the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan. Come join them!Best comment of this episode? Nancy on croquembouche: “Struggling with your food is not a fun way to cook.”The London Restaurant ListHere are the London restaurants Nancy mentions in this episode.Lyle'sThe Barbary The Palomar: The Pie Room at the Holborn Dining RoomSaborSt. John'sPop Quiz!Can anyone guess the name of the chef standing next to Nancy?Want a recipe from Nancy?In addition, for you, our paying subscribers, read on for bonus notes and the recipe for Nancy's famous Butterscotch Budino with Caramel Sauce and Rosemary Pine Nut Cookie. And we'll give you the answer to the pop quiz above. Get full access to Three Ingredients at threeingredients.substack.com/subscribe

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Colleen Reichmann - licensed clinical psychologist and eating disorder specialist with lived experience with anorexia, founder of Wildflower Therapy, and author of The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice From Two Therapists Who Have Been There. Colleen is also an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and HAES, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.In this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages. We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode. Find out more about Colleen's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Subscribe to her Substack here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full: Colleen Reichmann: But I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. I had such rage. Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period.  I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.INTROLaura Thomas: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Colleen Reichmann.Colleen is a licensed clinical psychologist practicing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She works at her group practice, Wildflower Therapy. She has lived experience with anorexia and this experience sparked her passion for spreading knowledge and awareness that recovery is possible. She is now an eating disorder specialist and has worked at various treatment facilities as well as authored a book, The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, advised from two therapists who have been there.She's an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and health at every size, and she's also a passionate advocate for maternal mental health, and an IVF mom times two. So in this episode, Colleen and I talk about a lot of pretty difficult themes. She discusses her journey to parenthood through IVF and through multiple miscarriages.We talk about grief, ambiguous loss, and being really angry and mad at your body and why it's important to allow all of that to be there. We talk about these topics as sensitively as we can, but if it's not for you right now, then just give this one a miss. There are loads more episodes that you can go back and listen to and just come and join us in the next episode.We're also going to be talking about raising embodied kiddos towards the end of the episode, so you can also just skip forward and listen to that part. And Colleen shares some of her really great advice as a mother and an eating disorder specialist psychologist about how we can help protect our kids' embodiment.But before we get to Colleen, I really wanted to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year and as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter and have a say in the work that we do here as well as ensure that I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app and a deep dive on helping kids have a good relationship with sugar..  All of those articles I've already written and you can read at laurathomas.substack.com. And if you're not yet totally convinced, then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help. So this reader and listener wrote: “I want to support the work you're doing as I think it's really important and I believe that you should be paid for your work.” I agree! “I value the model of subscriber direct support rather than ad revenue. I really like all your comments and interviews on the podcast about internalised capitalism and how it affects our views of things without us even realising. Thank you for spending your valuable time and skills to do all this research and writing it up.I would love to see you talking about all of this in mainstream newspapers, TVs, magazines, and other media. It's such an important topic and I really hope you get more and more moment  for your work. Also on a personal note, you are helping me change my children's lives for the better by educating me about all of this. Really appreciate all that you're doing.” Such a kind review, thank you to the person who emailed that in, you know who you are. So yeah, it's £5 a month, or £50 for the year, and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com. Or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked, just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. All right gang, here's Colleen.MAIN EPISODE Colleen, can you start by letting everyone know a little bit about you and the work that you do?Colleen Reichmann: Sure. So my name is Dr. Colleen Reichmann, and I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and an eating disorders and body image specialist with a small group practice in Philadelphia. We see people virtually and in person, there's 5 of us, we all focus on body image and eating disorders and then sort of sub-niches within that community and and one of mine is also perinatal mental health. That's me professionally. I'm also the co-author of the book The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery and a speaker and a writer of other things, and then just a mom, somebody with lived experience of an eating disorder, as well as infertility and IVF. And I have two IVF babies, Ezra and Marigold, who live with me, and two, like, very chaotic dogs, and I live with all of them, and my partner, outside of Philadelphia.Laura Thomas: Wow, there's, yeah, loads of different parts of your identity, I suppose, that I'd love to dig into and talk to you about, but I'd love to start by talking about your journey to parenthood. You mentioned there that you had your babies through IVF and I know you talk really openly about this, uh, on your social media platforms and on your Substack. And I'd love just to help orient the listeners a little bit to some of your experiences, if you could share what that journey has been like for you. Colleen Reichmann: For some reason for me the piece about having both of my babies through IVF feels really important to share. It almost just feels like a lot of my parenthood, like my identity hinges on, it just feels so integral to who I am as a mother at this point and a parent, so I feel compelled to make it like, I have it in bios and even my partner at one point is like, why do you have like your professional psychologist and then also IVF mom?And I was like, I don't know. It just, it feels like it factors so much into the whole lens that I view perinatal mental health at this point. So I was somebody who went through about 5 years of infertility. Once you launch into the process of  digging into what's going on with infertility, there's like a cascade of interventions that happens, and mine was pretty standard,. And looking back, I just kind of, like, fell into the cascade and did what everybody said to do.I have, like, just different questions now about the process.  But essentially, I did rounds of medication, medicated cycles, and then IUI is kind of, like, the next part of the process. And we had multiple failed IUIs, which is interuterine insemination. And then when you have enough of those, you know, failures, the next step is IVF. Which I would joke with my partner and call it the…what did I call it? What's like the team, you know, in high school, there's like the…varsity! I was like, well, I'm varsity and fertility now because I'm in the IVF process. Laura Thomas: You've graduated on to the next step. Yeah, I guess that you need some sort of like levity in amongst what sounds to me to be like a, an extraordinarily heavy process otherwise..Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. I think infertility and especially, I think IVF is its own specific form of trauma, but infertility is very traumatic in my opinion. And for me, there was like this specific part of it that felt traumatic that I had this whole history of an eating disorder, like a decade long and part of the reason I had…just reasons to recover or reasons to get into a more stable place and having children was one of them.And so it felt like a slap in the face, like I did all the work that I didn't want to do for many years. And I just felt like, I was promised something by professionals, even though that's not true. Like, it was just, it was discussed a lot in sessions.Laura Thomas: No, but I am, I'm just sitting here reflecting on how many times I've…you know, I, I'm not sure that, like, leveraged that is quite the right phrase, but you know when, when people ask me about what are the long term impacts on my health of, of my eating disorder, you know, I will say fertility is, is one of the, one of those long term things.I can see how that's really a double edged sword to say something like that, because, you know, further down the line, if that person goes through the motions of recovery and does that really excruciating work, and then comes out the other side and their fertility…and, and we don't know if I'm not trying to insinuate that people's infertility is necessarily related to their eating disorder or not, but I hear what you're saying is that you were promised this prize at the end of, of eating disorder recovery and it wasn't there for you.And that in and of itself must have been so painful.Colleen Reichmann: It's so painful. There was a specific instance that stuck in my mind. When I was in, I think it was high school or maybe like early college, but really young and I was sitting with a therapist who was also trying to kind of like leverage fertility or I would say trying her best to motivate me, in a way that backfired because I was overly, I was just not in a place to be motivated at that point.But she asked like, do you want to be skinny or do you want to be able to have kids one day? And I remember like…yeah, I remember just saying “skinny”, like looking at her and, it haunted me for like all those years of infertility. I had that in my mind, that like session and that exchange and I was like, I did it.I guess I brought this on myself and I, you know, I said that and I…just like the whole thing was just very complex and painful, and it felt like, yeah, just a twisting of a knife and I… but also like I did it to myself, and it was just a really, they were like devastating years, the years of infertility.Laura Thomas: And it sounds like so much self blame there as well. It's no one's fault yet I can imagine that that adds another layer of sort of pressure and complexity and pain to the situation that was already really upsetting.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah,Laura Thomas: So how did it play out from there? What was the sort of next step, if you will, through these years of infertility?Colleen Reichmann: Well, once I started the IVF process, I ended up actually getting what's called ovarian hyper simulation syndrome. So,  I produced like a lot of eggs and then got really sick after IVF, I was actually hospitalised. I then had a lot of embryos from that, which is like, such a great thing, but also was arguably, like, a little bit aggressive, the IVF treatment that I got. But anyway, so we went through the process of several failed frozen embryo transfers and then several transfers that ended in miscarriage and then ended up at some point – after I moved to Philadelphia, because we, I was doing all this while I was living in a different state and then we moved and relocated – and I remember saying, I'll do it. I'll try one last transfer and then I think I need to either pause or just stop this for right now and find another way to pursue happiness. Like, I have to…this is consuming everything. I'm becoming like a husk of a person, like I'm just infertility. And so then that transfer ended up being my now three year old son, Ezra, but I was so burned out by that point that I, when I took the pregnancy test after I had the, like, the two week wait and everything, I left it on the bathroom sink and went to like fold laundry because I was just so sure that it wasn't going to be positive. And then I remember when I came back and saw it, I didn't…my mind after just like years and years and years of only negatives was like, I can't, it must have been a full 60 seconds where I was just like, What's this? Like, what? I could, I could not compute.And then, yeah, after I had him, I did another embryo transfer, another miscarriage, and then my now one and a half year old daughter, Marigold, came after that. Laura Thomas: Wow. There's such a lot to process in there… such a wild, wild roller coaster by the sounds of things. And I can, yeah, I can totally see why you would be in that state of disbelief and kind of not allowing yourself to really let it wash over you, that this thing that you'd longed for for such a long time was, was real.I could imagine that there was a kind of sense that it could be taken from you at, at any moment. And so allowing yourself to just get in touch with that must have been, yeah, putting yourself out there to, to let it be real. You also mentioned, in amongst your IVF journey that there were some losses, some pregnancy losses. You've written really beautifully about pregnancy loss, body image and grief, and specifically about miscarriage as a form of ambiguous loss. This is a concept that I find really helpful just in body image work, body embodiment work generally. But I wondered if for anyone who was unfamiliar with that concept, if you can share that, what that is and what that means and looks like in the context of pregnancy loss.Colleen Reichmann: So ambiguous loss…I guess the simplest definition would be loss without any real closure, loss where there's not…not that there's ever a clear cut path, but where there's a less, even less of a clear cut path than normal from loss to acceptance. And I definitely think miscarriage and pregnancy loss falls underneath that  umbrella, for sure, just because there's often loss, with no tangible evidence of ever having anything.Other things, of course, in our society fall under ambiguous loss, like loss where it somewhat, it feels like a death, but the person is still physically present, like if somebody has dementia or, if you're estranged from a family member, things like that. But with miscarriage, I think the concept of ambiguous loss also really connects with the concept of disenfranchised grief, which feels so important, to me, in the discussion of it all.Laura Thomas: I haven't heard that term before. I would love to unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Okay, so disenfranchised grief is essentially…it's grief that's not, like, publicly accepted. It's grief that's not sort of socially acknowledged and interpersonally and socially mourned. So, a lot of times, I like to call grief, like, if you lose a family member, sometimes I'll call it ‘Tupperware Grief' because people, at least at first, hopefully, like, show up with tupperware containers and dinners. Then disenfranchised grief, like that of a miscarriage is more, like, there…oftentimes there's no big show of support. Like, there are no, like, tupperware dinners or people showing up. People don't know how to talk about it even, even less than they know how to talk about just…Laura Thomas: Regular death.Colleen Reichmann: yeah, like, normal grief.And oftentimes when you have a miscarriage, there's also that added component of not having even shared, if it was an earlier miscarriage that you were pregnant. So you're going through this, like, life altering, awful grieving process alone, but you know, you haven't even shared that there's something to grieve and it's just confusing and sad and it's a really specific form of grief, I would say.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think as a collective, we do so poorly with grieving, you know, as a society, it's privatised, it needs to be neat and tidy and, for example, if somebody dies or if you have a miscarriage or, you know, there are any of these types of life events. We rarely get time off work or leave or anything to just have the space and the time to process some of what's happened to us.I think, you know…what you're saying is there's a sort of additional layer to it where if it's an invisible loss or it's…I don't know, something that, yeah, intangible, I suppose to, to other people…where does that grief belong? There's nowhere to put it really. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and so much of grieving that's helpful, like so much of what I think helps grieving people is like physicality and like the presence of others and showing up… Laura Thomas: Community, yeah.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, like, and I'm, I'm not going to take this from you, like the sadness. I'm going to sit with you in it and I don't have the right words because normally there just are no right words.So, like, let's let you feel the sadness and I'll be here next to you. And with disenfranchised grief, that's almost, like,  gone. Like, there is just none of that. Laura Thomas: Yeah. Going back to this idea of ambiguous loss, how do you think that can help us, you know, understand or process our experiences in some way? Colleen Reichmann: You know, I think even the term . Like, even when I just had that knowledge that there was a word for it, that felt so affirming. So just, even understanding, like, that's what you're going through and maybe letting that sort of propel you to reach out, if possible, to people who feel really safe, even just one or two. I can't think of anything just more important for the grieving process of pregnancy loss than some, like, I don't know, catalyst to reach out and share to people who feel safe because that was something I definitely…at least two of the miscarriages just totally had an in silent, like, didn't really share with almost anyone and then changed my process for the third and I had…I remember it was just awful like they always are, but like, I had really beautiful showings of support from friends, like, cards and…I remember one friend sent flowers and then, like, two months after sent another bouquet and was, like, still thinking of you. And I was really touched by that because I was like, oh, it's like, not only is it, would it be a grief that's, like, totally unseen, but even with normal grief, a lot of times you get, like, the initial show of support and then it phases out and this person just is, like, still here, I still love you, you know, like, I know it still hurts. And that was all because I just tried to navigate it differently and asked for help that last time.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I think what…you know, what you're speaking to is this idea around grief that we have to follow a strict protocol, right? Like there's that initial period where you might be allowed to, you know, completely fall apart at the seams, but then you are expected to, you know, do that within the, I don't know, the two to three days that your boss allows you off of work and then afterwards you have to contain your grief, or at least make your grief more palatable to people. And what you're saying is that – I'm sort of reading between the lines here, but there is no timeframe for grief and when it's…when you've had a chance, well, it's never going to go away, is it, but you know, what you're saying is that, yeah, two months down the line, just having someone acknowledge that your pain is still there, that it's still valid, that it's, that someone sees you and is, is holding you. That's so powerful to have that, but in our society, yeah, like you have your allotted time frame for grieving and after that, sorry, no more flowers, no more cards. No one's going to check in on you or give you time off work. I don't know why I'm so like, hellbent on the work thing. Colleen Reichmann: It's so real though. Like, I think during one of my miscarriages, I remember there was a country that happened to grant, I think it was three days off to people who had pregnancy loss. I don't…do you know what country that is? Because I remember it was like in the whirlwind as it was all happening to me, and I was so like in a haze, but also aware of like, that's awesome.And three days, like, and I can't believe we don't even have, there's no three days here. That's for sure. But also like, yay. That's really nice. That's being acknowledged. But three days is nothing like it's an…I don't know, it was just, but the work thing. So it's so real that it's just incredibly difficult to show up to things like work when you're, like, in the haze of grief.Laura Thomas: Well, and I think it just, it speaks to how much society under capitalism dehumanizes our experiences and we are given our allotted time to grieve then you're expected to get back to work and be productive and if your grief spills over into your work, then you know, you're going to have to say something about that. I, I don't know which country it is. I know that they've had conversations about it here in the UK, about having some sort of leave for pregnancy loss and other kinds of losses, but  nothing that I know of that is formal at this point. But also again, yeah, like really a few days off work is probably not going to cut it for most people.And you know, alternatively, some people might actually find it really helpful to be at work and be around people and, and kind of taking their mind off of it. So yeah, it's not… there's no one right way to, to mourn or to grieve. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, so true.Laura Thomas: I also did an episode a little while back with Jennie Agg, who wrote a book about pregnancy loss called Life Almost, and just kind of how there are a lot of unanswered questions around pregnancy loss and infertility.And I'm going to link to that in the show notes for people who haven't heard that, because I think that's also a really helpful resource if yeah, if this is something, a conversation that you need to have more of in your life right now. I also wanted to talk to you a little bit about…I guess you called it body loathing. You talked about this sense of really loathing your body that you had in relation to miscarriage. And if it's okay with you, I'm going to read out something that you wrote as part of a Substack post and I will link to that as well. And you wrote: “The only thing that makes sense, to me at least, is to allow all of these emotions and thoughts to wash over you. Yes, this includes intense body loathing. Don't try to fight it or even shake free from it, at least at first. Honour that these feelings are because this loss, the loss that many others won't even know about is real. It's real and it's excruciating and it's evidence of love.And sometimes when grief is this big and things hurt this badly, we need a place to funnel the pain. If body loathing is the place for you in this moment, that's okay. That has to be okay.” Can you speak to why this idea of allowing body loathing is so crucial because I think it's so counter to the narrative that we are told whether that's about body image in relation to like weight and shape concerns, or, you know, where we're told like, you know that you have to come up with like positives that you like about your body or even in the context of pregnancy related body changes, pregnancy loss, we're told like, well, your body did this amazing thing even if you didn't, give birth. That, oh, well, at least you know, you can get pregnant or like, you know, there's always this like positive spin put on it and, and so it just felt really refreshing for me to, to read, like, no, you're allowed to hate your body and you're allowed to just be really angry with it, and feel let down by it and feel betrayed by it.So yeah, I just wondered if, you know, from a therapist's perspective, if you could explain why that is so powerful and crucial.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, that, that positive spin felt so offensive to me, especially through that journey in fertility and then pregnancy loss. Like and it just felt like everyone, like, and people were, of course, coming from a good place, but a lot of times it almost felt like…but you will, like, keep going, and I have so much hope for you, and, and, which is, like, maybe sometimes what I needed it, but a lot of times I was like, this is just so painful and like devastating and there's a lot of fear here that my whole life something that I've like wanted is not going to happen and I almost feels like you, you cannot tolerate sitting in it with me.And you're not the one going…like, I'm the one actually like, so if you can't tolerate even being a bystander, you know, that's so upsetting,  , and that the idea of, like, allowing yourself to just hate your body and be really mad at it, when it comes to infertility and pregnancy loss, it almost reminds me of, like, the…the chronic illness community often talks about, like, the eating disorder messaging on social media about, like, appreciating your body and loving your body and the function of it and how that feels really invalidating because, like, if my body…if I…what if I don't I appreciate it?What if I'm like, it feels like it's failing me? What if it doesn't function, “like it's supposed to”? Where do I fall in all of this? I feel like I related to that a lot during this process of like, and I'll speak for me just personally, because I also don't want to say other people feel this way, but I felt like my body did let me down.I wanted those babies. Like, so much, and it didn't do what I wanted to do. I can't imagine anything more important in my life than that, and it let me down, like, repeatedly. And I was just, like, I had such rage. And I was like, I just felt like it, it needed to be felt and I needed to be like, no, I don't, I don't need to connect with it right now.Like, I am at this point, just like any relationship we have with like a spouse, for example, your points where you're going to be just so angry and need space from your spouse or your partner. And that's how I felt during that period. And if I didn't want to be, like, pushed to, like, reunite at that time, I was like, no, I want to sleep in different bedrooms.I want time away. I want to, like, hate you. And I do. And that's, that is allowed, at least for me. And then, you know, some of the people that I work with, it's…there's something, like, affirming about that being just full permission, legalise hating your body.Laura Thomas: Yeah. I think, you know, we talk a lot about the concept of being sort of positively embodied and, kind of having this mind-body connection and being attuned to what's going on in our bodies. And I also think that there needs to be space for the fact that sort of disengaging or being disembodied is also protective and powerful and is a coping mechanism.And okay, maybe it's not sustainable forever, but there are times where that, where you just need to be able to check out. Just disengage and it sounds like that was part of your, your process at least, and, and it might be a helpful thing for other people to hold on to, especially in the face of like messaging around…appreciate your body and think about what it can do and, and so on.Like I can, yeah, totally see how that reads really badly when you're in something like that.Colleen Reichmann: Also, I do think some people might find that helpful for pregnancy too, so that it's helpful maybe in pregnancy loss, but also pregnancy can really just be an awful time for, like, to live in your body for some of us, so…that was another time in my life, which is interesting, because I just, there's so much devastation about the losses, but both pregnancies that were completed. I white knuckled it, is the best terminology I can use. I just, like, got through and they were just really hard experiences, probably the hardest physical experiences I've ever had in my life. Like, far beyond, you know, more challenging and uncomfortable than when I was in, like, the depths of the eating disorder.I felt like it was helpful. And I know I've heard other people say this too, to like, be allowed…which is an interesting dichotomy, because I was so grateful, like, I wanted the…I was like, everything in my life had led up to that moment, and I wanted those babies so much, and so, like, hated all of it, pregnancy was just so hard in my opinion. So allowing people to really – if they need to, be really, like, unhappy and disengaged from their body during that time, too, feels like an unpopular message, but one that I think is, like, kind of important.Laura Thomas: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it can, I mean, I know that there are additional layers if you've experienced, you know, pregnancy loss and gone through IVF because, you know, all of that trauma is stored in your body, right? And then you're adding something that is so desperately wanted and at the same time it can feel…I guess it can kind of be activating of everything, all of those other experiences that you've been through emotionally as well as the physical toll that that pregnancy and birth and, you know, everything that goes on in that sort of, especially first year or two years afterwards. It's, yeah, it's so much and…similarly to baby loss. Pregnancy loss or baby loss, we're not given space to grieve…for the grief that I think is an inherent part of pregnancy and childbirth and being a parent in late stage capitalism, like, just all of it.Because, yeah, you know, you have your kids. So Colleen, why are we still talking about it? You should be happy and just getting on with your life. That's the message that we're so often given. Oh, your body did this amazing thing. That's true. And that was a very difficult experience. Colleen Reichmann: Yeah. And people say like, for things like birth trauma, so often you hear again, this is, I guess, goes with that toxic positivity, but like, well, as long as you got your baby, as long as you got a healthy baby, and I'm like, that's so dually insulting to both parents who don't have “a healthy baby” at the end, like, whose babies have, you know, physical or medical issues, and then also to people who did experience, like, trauma, or it was like, you know, they're just things didn't go as planned are also allowed to feel things and to have grief. The main theme here is toxic positivity is, like, really problematic for this stage of life.Laura Thomas: It doesn't serve anyone. And I think that connects back yeah, back to kind of what you were saying about being given permission to just loathe your body in the face of, you know, otherwise messaging that, just tells you to love your body and appreciate the things that it can do. I think we need to make a lot more space for these tensions, these complicated feelings.So not to be like, well, you have your babies now! But also I did want to talk to you a little bit about parenting from the perspective that, you know, you are someone with lived experience of an eating disorder and also an eating disorder therapist raising these children and, I love the messages that you put out around, you know, protecting their embodiment and their relationship with food.And I'd really love it if you could share, you know, a couple of the messages that you feel are most important to pass down to your kids to, I suppose, help disrupt that intergenerational transmission of body shame and disordered eating. Colleen Reichmann: I think about this every day. One thing that I do want to make sure I say, because I just…I feel really strongly that there's a lot of pressure around this generation, like our generation of moms, to break intergenerational toxicity or messaging, and I just feel really strongly that you don't have to be perfectly healed to do that.Laura Thomas: Yes, 100%.Colleen Reichmann: You can be, like, still really struggling and be breaking, like, those intergenerational messages. I think that's really important to know. And also – this might even be, like, a less popular take – but that to not put too much pressure on yourself to break, like, all, like, maybe your role is breaking, maybe you break these ones, and then over there, you're still working on that, or those are, like, you're, like, just, I don't know, I think there's a lot of weird pressure now to be these, like, totally healed mothers.Laura Thomas: There is. And I'm so glad that you said that. I think not only is there a lot of pressure in the form of often, like, you know, things that we should say or do or these, like, scripts that you often read on social media. There's a lot of those and some of them can be really, really helpful. Some of them less so, but I've been thinking a lot about this idea of how sometimes we need to say and do a lot less.Colleen Reichmann: Mm hmm.Laura Thomas: And how that's also okay. You don't have to, like, you know, do like, have all the little scripts memorised. But what might be a good starting point is if you don't talk shit about your own body in front of your kids. Like, if you just don't do that, that, that might be all that is needed.There are helpful things that we can do, of course. But, yeah, I really appreciate you just kind of giving that…that caveat that, yeah, you, you don't have to be all, have everything all figured out. It's enough to be kind of thinking and reflecting and and not saying the shit things.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, and that…I feel like that is huge. That alone is just so monumental, the shift of like not saying negative stuff about our bodies or other people's, like, it's actually pretty easy once you get…like, it's easy to start to not like, comment on people's bodies, like, once you really get into the hang of it, like, in any direction, like, not comment…compliments or negative things.So that's huge. And at this point, I do also want to say they're one and three, so I'm probably so freaking annoying to, like, parents of older kids. Like, I think I know what I'm talking about or something when I've been in this for like three years.Laura Thomas: You and me both. You and me both!Colleen Reichmann: They're like, what do you know?But for right now, my feeling from what I've seen is that it's almost, like, away from bodies and food. There's messages that are, like, more important. Like, than even the things you say about bodies and food, like, one of the ones that I feel most strongly about, and I say to them, I try to say it every day, is like, I'm so happy you're in this world.Like, I am so happy you're here. The things that you add to my life, I, like, can't even put into words, because I just feel like that's a really, like… there's something very protective about that message, like at least one person in this world is like, thinks like the sun rises and set, like, like, she is just so happy that I'm here, like, that's…and that's also, I like to tell people that because I feel like it's really also easy, like, instead of being perfectly healed and the, you know, the most knowledgeable about all the body positivity things, like, focus on making sure they feel like your just delight in their presence that doesn't have to do with their appearance, you know.Laura Thomas: Yeah, that idea of taking delight in the fact that they're there and they're in your life and, you know, they're gonna absorb that energy as it were. I love that.And also I was just gonna make the caveat that I'm also sometimes displeased to see my child and that's also okay if you have those. Especially at like six o'clock in the morning when I'm like, you're supposed to still be asleep. So yeah, I didn't want that to sound like, uh, an imperative.Colleen Reichmann: I think there was this research, I could be wrong, but I thought there was like research that you just have to do it for like 5 or 10 minutes a day, and that can be fundamental to self esteem building, but I also don't know if that's true. I feel like I could have made that up, but I think, so it doesn't have to be all day long.Laura Thomas: Don't fact check, Colleen.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, just trust me. But, like, in a similar sense to that, I also think another thing that's just so helpful for, like, our kids and their bodies, is the way we talk about sex and their body parts, like, using the medical terms for body parts and not being…like, I talked in another podcast about how I recognised with my daughter when I was saying the word vagina, that I have felt, vaguely uncomfortable at first. And I was like, whoa, well, there's nobody in her life right now that's gonna like, show her how to feel comfortable and like that my body parts are all allowed other than me. I need to kind of step into that, own it.And so I got a book, like, uh, the Pop Out Vagina Book or something. And we, like, read it every day and I was like…that's another really kind of basic, easy way to show them, this is how to just feel comfortable and, like, safe in your body.Laura Thomas: I love that. I'm going to get the link to that book and put it in the show notes for anyone else who's kind of…yeah, because I mean, I think our generation, we were like given all of these kind of like cutesy code words for labia and vagina and of course it feels uncomfortable because it's the first time that we're really having to use those words in…and teach other people about those words.So, of course, it would feel uncomfortable. I love that you're normalising that. And yeah, there's tons of really cool books and resources that you can use to normalise that. I wanted to ask you just really quickly about one sort of food related message that you shared on, I think it was a Reel. This is a message that you want to instill into your kids where you've said that food is not just fuel. You're allowed to eat for boredom, for pleasure, to self soothe. Your appetite isn't scary for us. Ever. I just love this message so much and I just wanted to hear you kind of unpack that a little bit more.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I think my hope is to just make food a really… like, you're allowed to interact with food in the ways that are innate to all of us, and you're never going to be micromanaged, and, like, I will never micromanage you, and I hope that you don't feel the need to micromanage yourself as you get older. Because we all, like, that is a very healthy and okay, like, human drive is to use food we have for, like, you know, ever to, to celebrate, to mourn, to self soothe at times, or hunger, for things other than hunger, like it's.. just hope to be able to foster an environment where it's all allowed and it's never, like, there are never nonverbal or verbal messages that, like, your appetite's scary or, you know, I have a problem with you interacting with food. Like I just really want to be protective of their relationship with it.Laura Thomas: I think that the line that really, really resonated for me was that piece that your appetite isn't scary for us, ever. And I also just wanted to acknowledge that  for a lot of people I know listening to the podcast and who read the newsletter, their kid's appetite does feel scary and overwhelming to them.And I just wanted to say, you know, we see you and that is the soup that we're swimming in. So it's totally understandable that you feel like that. And something that, you know, when I'm doing workshops and things on embodied eating, I ask parents to look for the signs that you can trust your child, look for, you know, the signs that they know how to trust their own bodies and think about what we can learn from that. So I'll offer that. I don't know if that's helpful, but I just wanted to acknowledge that yeah, our kids' appetites can be scary sometimes. I'm with you, Colleen. Like, they shouldn't be, but it's the messaging that we've been indoctrinated into thinking.Colleen Reichmann: Like it is very counterculture to say like, your appetite isn't scary and you're allowed to eat to self soothe. So I totally empathize and understand why people do feel like that fear…and it comes from a place like think about the stakes that we feel like we're under with this, like, the stakes that they're trying to sell us are like you're not a good mom or parent if you don't manage food and…yeah in this way or their weight. And that's just scary for everyone,   so I have so much empathy for people trying to break free.Laura Thomas: Yeah. But even just again, you know, going back to what we talked about before about not having to be perfect with this stuff, but even, you know, saying to your kids, I trust your appetite, even if you're not 100% there yet. But I think there is something so powerful if you could at least, you know, in giving that message at least.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah.Laura Thomas: All right, Colleen, this has been so great. Like I said to you off mic, there are so many different ways that I felt like we could have taken this conversation. We could have just talked about parenting stuff. We could have just talked about the grief stuff, but we tried to squish it all in. So thank you so much for being here.At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it could be anything. It could be a show, it could be a literal snack, whatever it is. So can you share with us what have you been snacking on lately?Colleen Reichmann: Yes. Well, thank you for having me. First of all, this was such a great conversation. Okay. I have two. I have a literal snack. I've been loving is these Trader Joe's chocolate sea salt graham crackers that are…Laura Thomas: Stop. I'm so, I'm so like…last Christmas, my brother sent me, like, a huge care package of stuff just from Trader Joe's and it was all their, like, crunchy great snacks and we can't get them here. So, yeah, they sound amazing.Colleen Reichmann: They're so good. They have like, they have it down with the snacks. Laura Thomas: They're really on point with their snacks, yeah. Colleen Reichmann: And those are great for like, I like to have them, especially while I'm reading, which is the other thing I'm snacking on, which I wrote it down, so I did justice to the actual title. I'm rereading…it's called, Like a Mother, A Feminist Journey Through The Science and CultureLaura Thomas: Oh, it's Angela Garbes.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, yes.Laura Thomas: I haven't read that, but I've, yeah, I've read her follow up book, which is Essential Labor. I don't know if you've read that. Oh, so good.Colleen Reichmann: Yeah, I've read that one. I really like both of them. I honestly like, they're just…they're the type of thing you have to read. I'm re-reading this one because I'm like, I feel like there's so much amazing stuff in it and I, oh my gosh, I love. Yeah, her writing is just, incredible. And the way she writes about motherhood is so different than what I've seen elsewhere. Laura Thomas: Oh, man. Yeah. I know. I have thought about going back and reading her first book after coming to her through Essential Labor, and her Substack is great as well if, yeah, if anyone is…I'll link to that in the, in the show notes. So, okay. Yeah. You're making me think I need to go back and read that.  So my snack is an illiteral snack this time. So there is another Substack newsletter called that probably everyone is sick of hearing me talk about because I link to them like every week in our like weekly community threads. Ruby Tandoh is one of the writers for Vittles and she did this like deep, deep, deep dive into London ice cream culture and all the different kind of ice creams from…that are not just like gelato and ice cream and like the things that you hear a lot about. And she tried like, I don't know, something like 350 different kinds of ice cream all all across London. She narrowed it down to like a top 16. So this is a really long way of telling you that my snack is one of the ice creams that she talked, I picked, I think it was like number 14 or 15 on the list and it's called Vagabond ice cream. And they do these vegan, like, choc ices. I don't know, what do you call them in the States? Like, choc  blocks or some, I don't know, some like, Do you know what I mean? And then it's got, it's got like a layer of chocolate around it. What is that called in the States?Colleen Reichmann: Like an ice cream sandwich?Laura Thomas: No, because that's like, that's like a cookie, right? With cookies on the, on either side.Okay. Someone, I'm sure someone in the comments will let us know, but the flavour is like a peanut butter ice cream and then the chocolate has bits of pretzel around it. So you've got that salty, sweet, crunchy…like it's a textural delight, for anyone who is like a sensory seeker, that's yes, very, very good. Colleen, would you mind sharing just quickly where people can find you and your work?Colleen Reichmann: My website is just ColleenReichman.com and then I have an Instagram which is @DrColleenReichmann.  , I tinker around on TikTok under the same username. I struggle with making those, like, educational, though. A lot of them are just silly. And let's see…I started a Threads because everybody's doing it. So I jumped on the bandwagon. Same username. And then I have a Substack, which is Musings From A Mama, which I'm trying to figure out a way to write regularly because it just brings me such joy to write about the complexities of motherhood. And then my email is just colleenreichmann@gmail.com.Laura Thomas: Oh, cool. I don't know that anyone's ever shared, like, straight up shared their email before, but I love…Colleen Reichmann: Yeah!Laura Thomas: Just get in touch, everyone, just…Colleen Reichmann: Come on over.Laura Thomas:  No, I really love your Substack and I'm glad to hear that you're going to be thinking of ways to write more often. So yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes.Colleen, it's been so great to talk to you. Thank you so much.Colleen Reichmann: Yes, thanks for having me. OUTROLaura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI last week: How Do You Deal With Clothes That Don't Fit Anymore?* The Audacity of Fussy Eating Advice* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram* Hey Ella's Kitchen - Food Play Doesn't Solve Systemic Inequity FFS This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Juniors S7E2 - Heat A Biscuit week! Been a quiet week for the hosts - no baking, but a shoutout for a local to Richmond biscuit maker: Cafe Warshafsky - https://www.cafewarshafsky.com/ We do a quick where are they now with one of the "controversial" bakers - Ruby Tandoh. Two bakes this week: Liam's Peanut Butter Millionaire shortbread, and a "biscuit Piniata" Spoilers below: In the Shortbreads, the issues came mostly to getting a good bake on the shortbread (several underbaked), or getting the caramel. Lola, Mia, Joey all ruined caramel first try. In Judging several had issues with soft bakes, Will over stoked his peanut butter caramel and it came out hard. Bottom of the heap: Joey and Quique with Eliza Taking top honors. In the showstopper - bake time reared its ugly head again. Mia, Will, Kezia all had structural issues from underbaking. Joey tried brandy snaps as his structure and it did not pay off. Biggest surprise - Quique bringing home a handshake for his beehive pinata ... and then getting STAR BAKER. I personally felt Eliza should have been the win. And, no surprise based on the day, last episode's star baker Joey... was sent home. Follow us on IG: @ScrummyHandshakes

This quarter, we're both experiencing what it's like to grow passively - to learn about what springs up when we leave empty space. As we explore the feeling of liminal spaces, we talk about being (recovering) people-pleasers, how we're learning to be curious about ourselves, some tools we're using to keep those spaces of possibility open, and the growth that happens accidentally along the way. We also talk a bit about how we met, and some ways that we've changed over the years. And of course, it wouldn't be Hearth & Heather if we didn't talk about our favorite mysteries.Mentioned in episode:Real Self Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness by Pooja LakshminSaving Time: Discovering a Life Beyond the Clock by Jenny OdellRadical Remedies: An Herbalist's Guide to Empowered Self-Care by Brittany Ducham“I said yes” and “I said no” punchcards from Shanalee Hampton Manoj Dias on  InsightTimer and InstagramComfort TV: Midnight Diner (Netflix), Columbo (Peacock TV), and Poker Face (Peacock TV)Annika Hansteen-IzoraCook as You Are: Recipes for Real Life, Hungry Cooks, and Messy Kitchens by Ruby Tandoh

Welcome to Episode 178! We are currently reading a variety of genres: Fiction (CHASE OF THE WILD GOOSE by Mary Gordon and VOYAGER by Diana Gabaldon), memoir (LIFE B: OVERCOMING DOUBLE DEPRESSION by Bethanne Patrick), self-help (WHY AM I SO ANXIOUS by Tracey Marks), and a cookbook (COOK AS YOU ARE by Ruby Tandoh). Emily discusses three gripping novels that she recently read: THE MEMORY OF ANIMALS by Claire Fuller, OUR BEST INTENTIONS by Vibhuti Jain, and I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU by Rebecca Makkai. Chris enjoyed a new biography that investigates Edgar Allan Poe's death, A MYSTERY OF MYSTERIES by Mark Dawidziak. She also finished two novels: DRAGONFLY IN AMBER by Diana Gabaldon and THE WARDEN by Anthony Trollope. We are excited to giveaway a copy of our second quarter readalong pick, THE READING LIST by Sara Nisha Adams. To be entered to win, you simply need to be a newsletter subscriber. If you are not already, act quickly because we are picking the winner on March 29th! Easy sign up here: https://www.bookcougars.com/subscriber Don't miss our Author Spotlight with Jennifer Savran Kelly. We both love her new novel, ENDPAPERS, a character-driven story about a genderqueer book conservator and book artist who finds a message under the endpapers of an old book that sets her off on an external investigation into the past that helps her solve some of her current internal mysteries.

'I am a dessert person, and we are all dessert people.' - Claire Saffitz On this episode, Malaika and Harleigh (but mostly Harleigh) discuss their love of dessert. What's the difference between ice cream and gelato? Is Sticky Toffee Pudding the Queen of all desserts? Vote on the poll on the episode (Spotify only). Harleigh's Favourite Baking & Dessert Cookbooks: 'Dessert Person' by Claire Saffitz: https://amzn.to/3YMceO6 'Crumb' by Ruby Tandoh: https://amzn.to/3ZZlnnp 'Sugar, I Love You' by Ravneet Gill: https://amzn.to/427j3g3 'A Good Day To Bake' by Benjamina Ebuehi: https://amzn.to/3yzRApG 'The New Way To Cake' by Benjamina Ebuhei: https://amzn.to/3lbl0Yo 'The Book on Pie' by Erin McDowell: https://amzn.to/3LcLdAm Pie Baking 101 with Erin McDowell on YouTube here You get £10.00 for your 1st trip with FREE NOW, when you download the app here: https://m.free-now.com/JGMc/dt1i8t97 Already got the app? Add our referral code instead: tnspebx01 Follow the podcast for updates and video content Instagram, TikTok and YouTube! You can follow Harleigh on Instagram here, and follow Malaika right here.

Lydia Harris has always struggled with food. For as long as she can remember, she has avoided fruit and vegetables - their texture simply disgusts her. But one day, that began to change, with a small bowl of rocket leaves. Eating is one of the greatest pleasures in life for many of us - but, at the same time, it's an arena fraught with choice and decision. No wonder that, as creatures of habit, many of us settle staunchly upon a shopping list of likes, and a mental bank of dislikes. But in this episode, Matthew Syed sticks his fork into the delicious world of food, reminding us that taste is malleable. With an appetite for curiosity, Matthew thinks about how we can find greater joy in our three daily meals. With thanks to food writer Ruby Tandoh, Carolyn Korsmeyer (Professor of Philosophy at Buffalo University, New York) and Charles Spence (Professor of Experimental Psychology at the University of Oxford). Presenter: Matthew Syed Producer: Nadia Mehdi Series Editor: Katherine Godfrey Sound Design and Mix: Naomi Clarke Theme music by Ioana Selaru A Novel production for BBC Radio 4

I'm super excited to share this conversation with Anjali Prasertong - writer and registered dietitian, focused on food systems and racial equity. In this episode we talk about Anjali's path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you, and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition, but even if you don't this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot from it. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Subscribe to Anjali's newsletter hereFollow her work on Instagram hereFollow Laura on Instagram here Here's the transcript in full:Anjali Prasertong: And that was a really just clarifying moment for me where, you know, we're talking about all these systems in the world that we live in, that uphold white supremacy. And I just sat there and realised like, Oh, like I'm falling out of love with dietetics because I've never heard anyone talk about racism and the effect that white supremacy has on nutrition when we all know it has a huge impact. And it's, it's complicit, it's part of the system. And kind of in that moment I was like, I just wanna, like racial equity and anti-racism in food is what I'm interested in and it just doesn't feel like anything else I could do would be as impactful. So that, that was sort of the turning point for me professionally.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.Today I'm talking to Anjali Prasertong. Anjali is a writer and registered dietitian focused on food systems and racial equity. She's originally from Los Angeles where she was a contributing editor for the award-winning food website, the Kitchen, before moving to New Orleans, Louisiana, and getting her master's of public health degree. In New Orleans, she led an innovative city-funded corner store program that increased fresh food access in low-income neighbourhoods and worked with food entrepreneurs looking to operationalise racial equity in their businesses.She currently lives in Denver, Colorado with her husband and her two children. Her newsletter, anti-racist dietitian, which by the way, hard recommend, is about the intersection of nutrition and racial equity covering history, food systems, land, water, politics, basically everything that lies beyond the individual choices we make about the food that we eat.Anjali writes about what she wishes she had learned as a nutrition student, and she's creating a space that centres honesty, vulnerability, and the lived experiences of people of colour. In this episode, we talk about Anjali's path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition.But even if you don't, this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot. And while you're here, just a reminder that if you're not a fully paid-up member of the, Can I have another snack community then you're missing out on so many great benefits like our Thursday discussion threads, Snacky Bits, where we're having smart conversations away from the noise and the fat-phobic trolls of social media.You'll also get access to my Dear Laura column where this month I was answering a question from a stepparent about parenting a fat child. Plus you'll get access to my anti-parenting, my anti Diet parenting, not Anti Parenting downloads, bonus podcast episodes and loads more. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and your support allows me to pay a podcast editor, a copy editor for my long-form essays, and it pays for the hours and hours of research and other labour that is required to produce thoughtful writing. If you need a comp subscription for any reason, then please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with snacks in the email header and we will hook you up. No questions asked. And one last favour to ask. If you're listening to this in Apple Podcasts, please go and leave a rating and review. We haven't had any reviews yet, which is a total bummer because it really helps more people find this podcast episode and hopefully feel heard and supported by these conversations. All right, team. Here's Anjali.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: So Anjali, I'd love to know who or what you are nourishing right now.Anjali: So I'm nourishing, um, my family who I'm always nourishing, uh, which is my husband Rob, and we have an eight-year-old son and a two-year-old son. But I'm also lately just been really nourishing myself. I have had a pretty big professional change in the last year and within the last two years, a lot of big life changes and it feels like the first time in a long time that I can just sort of enjoy the world around me. I mean, I think a lot of people are probably feeling similarly. And I've really been sort of getting back in touch with creativity, which used to be a big part of my life, um, and just trying to find ways to nurture that, whether it's going to museums or just spending time in nature, reading all sorts of different kinds of books and just yeah, just kind of reconnecting with that side of the world.Laura: Mmmh. That comes through in your newsletter in your Friday post where you're talking about just things that have been bringing you joy lately. And I've so appreciated getting those posts in my inbox because it's a reminder to take stock and notice the things that are bringing us joy. And yeah, as you're sort of alluding to the world has felt really heavy the past two years. I mean, it has been a heavy place, and I think we do need those reminders to connect with joy because it also, you know when you are doing, particularly if you're doing work that is rooted in social justice in some way, it's very easy to get burnt out otherwise.Anjali: Definitely. Yeah, I think. The Friday Joy pieces were sort of like, Oh, you know, I wanna have something else and, and what can be something that I don't need to do a lot of research for. But for me it's, it's been kind of a grounding practice to really think about like, what is bringing me joy, what's keeping me nourished And, I've just, in the last couple years, been able, it feels like I've been able to bring a lot of things into alignment with my life as far as being able to live my values.And, this last piece of just getting back into writing again, which is something that I had done for my entire life, but had sort of stepped away from when I was doing my studies, just getting back to writing is really, I think it feels like just completing the circle for me and, bringing me a lot of happiness and fulfilment that I feel I've been missing for a long time.Laura: I love the expression that you used there, which was kind of bringing things into alignment with your values, and I wondered if you could speak more to that idea.Anjali: Sure. So I lived in, so I'm originally from Southern California, and then I lived in New Orleans for seven years, which was an incredible experience, but it was also just a very shocking experience for this sort of escaping the California bubble and moving to the deep South for, I mean, many reasons it was shocking. But, It didn't, you know, there would be small things that would kind of, I would complain about while living there. Like, why don't I, why can't I recycle glass? Just this feels so strange to just throw this bottle into the trash or, you know, why is the school system all charter schools?So I'm trying to send my kindergartner to a school in a way that's not going to perpetuate these inequities of the educational system and it's almost impossible.Laura: Sorry to interrupt you, but we don't have charter schools here, so would you mind explaining what they are and like why that's an issue?Anjali: Sure. So charter schools are basically, for-profit schools. Usually, they have some sort of, like alternative focus or something that, um, the founders believe that the public school is not offering to students. And sometimes that can be a great fit for people. They do receive public money. So the problem with charter schools, so the problem that some people see is that it funnels children away from the local public schools.And, you know, in the United States, there's not many places where, especially these days where people of different socioeconomic status, different races, different cultures all come together in one place. So, a public school is a great site for being able to interact with all different sorts of people.So in some places, you know, charter schools are funnelling kids away and that's harming, at least I think the fabric, the social fabric of the country. And in New Orleans, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, basically the entire school system became only charter schools. So that means in New Orleans we lived down the street from a public charter school.And there was no guarantee that we would be able to get into that school. There was no guarantee that we would get into any school that was what we preferred. So, just inequitable in so many ways. One of them being like, how do you find out what school to go to? Probably through your networks. Who's in your network? Probably people like you. So it, it really creates this hierarchy of good schools which are disproportionately white because most public schools in New Orleans are almost like 90% or more black students. And then creates a system where, you know, students whose parents don't have time to go to all these open houses and decide what school they wanna send their child to can end up going to these schools that are close to failing.So it, it's just very complicated, frustrating, and inequitable system and really tests your resolve as someone who wants to live by your values of like, okay. I want to, you know, it's a, it's a lottery in the end, so you put your choices and then if, depending on where you're chosen in the lottery, you get placed in a school.So it was just a question of, all right, if he doesn't get into these schools that are, you know, in my top choices, will I send him to like a, a school that's rated a c that is, sort of close to, unable to meet the needs of its students. So we didn't, I wasn't put in that situation.He ended up getting into one of our choices, but, it, it's, yeah, so, so just that whole system and various issues with living in a deep red state in the United States. Just constantly was testing my values of like, how far am I willing to go? How much am I willing to sort of inconvenience myself or push myself to live what I believe?So when we moved to Denver, it was just like a great relief. I just felt like I had been so tired from fighting against these wins for so long that it just felt good to be like, Oh, I can just, just live my life in alignment with what I believe to be true. So, we actually, my son does go to the, the local public school now, and it's amazing.It's such a, a great community and just all these small things that have really brought me a lot of fulfilment in my life. Laura: And the other thing that you touched on was a career change. And I'm wondering if that, if you were talking about the, the sort of path that you've been on the, towards becoming an anti-racist dietician, which I know has, sort of, has seeds sown in your experiences in New Orleans. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that.Anjali: Sure. So, you know, moving to New Orleans was just a huge wake-up call for me, because I had been in a dietetics program, in near LA and just met amazing students. Had teachers from all over the world just bringing really diverse perspectives and never really felt the, the whiteness of the dietetics field while I was there.And also just very open to kind of alternative, you know, it's California, like alternative, cutting edge ways of approaching nutrition. And then moving to Louisiana, I had to switch to a state school that was kind of in the middle of the Cajun Bayou. So that was a huge culture shock for me.And then also just the approach to nutrition dietetics was completely different, where it was just very much by the book, this is what you're supposed to do, we're just kind of gonna scoff at any sort of alternative viewpoints.Laura: Sorry, can I just before we, before we keep going on, because I think this is important, and again, this is where like a lot of my listeners are based in the UK and Australia, weirdly, um, and, they may not have that context of what the Cajun Bayou is. Like, I know, cuz I lived in Texas for five years, so I get, I know where you're coming from, but I wonder if you could just maybe tell us a little bit more about what exactly you mean by that.Anjali: Sure. So it is like a really, in the Cajun Bayou is a really interesting place because it is so uniquely American and there's no nowhere else like it in the world. So it's sort of the area of Louisiana, close to the Gulf of Mexico. And so, it, you know, has always been a place of very waterways and very like, rich with life.Like there's a, you know, a lot of indigenous cultures that have long history there. And, so it's just an interesting place in that it combines, you know, the, those sort of the indigenous history, and also the French fur trappers that came to that area, like early in the history of the United States, because Louisiana was for a long time, like a French colony. So there's a lot of that influence. And so it's just a very unique place. So if you think about, you know, like a crawfish boil or like alligators, uh, what's the Disney movie Princess and the Frog, Like that sort of, um, swampy, the sort of Cajun accents, a lot of spicy food, um, that, that life is the Cajun Bayou.And it's interesting because it is quite rural. And so people actually do have a very close connection to their ancestor's foodways that I think is really interesting, you know, that, like people are still eating things that their great-great-great grandparents were eating, and the like recipes passed down for generations.So it does have that old, old history.Laura: Yeah. Like it's not uncommon for people to eat things like squirrels right?Anjali: Hunting's very big. Yeah. Every, a lot of people actually live next to like a canal or some other waterway. So it's really common for kids to be like driving boats from a, a young age and, living on houseboats and things like that.Laura: Well, okay, sorry for the, the little detour, but I just thought it would be helpful.Anjali: Yeah. Let me know if there's anything that's too American.Laura: And, and, and I'm wondering as well, and I don't know if this is gonna be important context for the rest of your story, but, and this again may be, uh, an assumption that I have, but I have this sense that, and especially cuz you said that it's quite rural as well, that there's a lot of poverty there. Is that fair to say?Anjali: Yeah, so that was also just a real wake-up call because, I mean, I could just feel it in going from one state school, like the state school in California to a state school in Louisiana. It was just a feeling of like, Oh, this is what happens when you disinvest from education systems and like public service and other, systems to kind of uplift the citizens of a state. I mean, halfway through my semester at school, they were like, well, the, um, we're kind of outta money so we might have to cancel all classes for next semester. So luckily that didn't happen. But, um, there is definitely a lot of poverty, a lot of, a lot of students that I went to school with, they were first-generation college students, which I had experienced in California, but often in that case it would be, you know, like a student whose family had come from Mexico or something like that. At the school in Louisiana, I met a lot of students where their fathers had like, only had, uh, eighth-grade education, had never even gone to high school. And the, a lot of them were like shrimp farmers and things like that. So, um, it was definitely much less educated as far as like receiving formal education than I had experienced before.So that was part of my sort of culture shock of like, Oh, I can't make any assumptions about people's lives, their family's lives, what they believe, what their experiences have been.Laura: So where did you go from there? Like, it sounds like you were in, in a program, and maybe it'd be helpful to explain what that program was and what you were doing there.Anjali: Sure. So I was sort of finishing up for, in order to become a dietician in the US you have to take these specific set of classes that meet sort of, you know, you studied, uh, counselling people, you studied all these things. So I, I had started that in California and had to finish it in Louisiana because, um, we moved rather suddenly due to my husband's job.And, so that, that's what I was studying, but it, uh, was gonna require two years. So after one year, I was like, I can't just do this , because it, I was. I just knew I needed some more stimulation and, and, um, I knew I had wanted to pursue my master's degree. So, I was living in New Orleans and they, they have a great program at Tulane University.And I should say, So the Bayou is, there is like a, a pretty significant black population, and also people that have indigenous, uh, ancestry. But New Orleans itself is a majority black city, so it's about 60% black residents. And, so that was also quite different for me just coming from LA which I didn't realise until later and sort of reflecting on, you know, where I had grown up.But that's really the results of like redlining and segregation where the black communities in Los Angeles are very much clustered in certain parts of the city. And so I grew up in a very racially diverse suburb, but there were not a lot of black people there because, you know, those, once you establish those lines, like they kind of persist over the generations. So New Orleans is not only a majority black city, it's also a city that's really founded on black culture. And there's an artist that had a t-shirt that was like, Everything you love about New Orleans comes from black people. And that's basically true of just all these, you know, the food, the music, all these cultural events are all rooted in, the history of black people in New Orleans. So I, you know, went to Tulane and, and they did a pretty good job of, sort of talking about, I mean, they did an excellent job of talking about the disparities between black and white people in Louisiana, in the south, in New Orleans, and, a pretty good job of, of just sort of, allowing everyone to have a perspective and, and kind of giving you the full picture. There are a lot of tensions between Tulane and the surrounding black communities. Um, just historical. Um, so that's a whole other story. But, just being in the world of public health was really eye-opening for me as far as like, oh, okay, we're not blaming people for the food choices that they make and trying to shame them. Instead, we're talking about these systemic issues of why are these the only foods they're being allowed to choose from? And, you know, what are the upstream causes of these diet-related diseases? So, so that was just felt like a revelation to me to be able to talk about those types of things.And through the program, um, I was able to do a, uh, undoing racism training with the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond.And that was a really just clarifying moment for me where, you know, we're talking about all these systems in the world that we live in, that uphold white supremacy. And I just sat there and realized like, Oh, like I'm falling out of love with dietetics because I've never heard anyone talk about racism and the effect that white supremacy has on nutrition when we all know it has a huge impact. And it's, it's complicit, it's part of the system. And kind of in that moment I was like, I just wanna, like racial equity and anti-racism in food is what I'm interested in and it just doesn't feel like anything else I could do would be as impactful. So that, that was sort of the turning point for me professionally.Laura: So it sounds as though, if I'm understanding you correctly, that what was being named in your public health classes around structural and social determinants of health and inequality was not been given the same air time in your nutrition and dietetics classes. So there was like this huge disconnect where in, and I'm putting words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in, in nutrition and dietetics, it's very focused on the individual and, and we're counselling a single person on what they should or shouldn't eat without the broader context of those social and structural determinants that could be informing things like the amount of money that they have to afford food, the, their access to that food, you know, physical access because of where they're located, which as you've just said could be through generations of.I can't remember the exact terms that you, you used, there were specific terms, so maybe you want to jump in there. The, what was it you said?Anjali: For which part?Laura: I think basically the idea that that, like of segregation essentiallyAnjali: Oh, ohLaura: Yeah. Physical segregation.Anjali: Yeah. I mean, New Orleans has, you can look up maps. Um, I think the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation did a big project where you can actually map how people's like lifespan, expected lifespan changes by neighbourhood in New Orleans. And the neighbourhoods with the highest lifespans are the ones that are disproportionately white. And the ones with the lowest are the ones that are disproportionately black. And it's not, it's not like a, it's like 30 years difference. Like, it's not a small amount of time. And so I feel, I felt that in not addressing these issues, I mean, I still feel this way, I felt this way during my entire dietetic internship.It's like, if you don't name this, which I did not hear it named in my programs in Louisiana, then the conclusion that people might draw is that, oh, it's, it's their fault.Like there's a reason, you know, it's their fault that they're living thirty- Yes. That they're, they're, well, they're not exercising, you know, they're just, they're eating this horrible food.And that was just infuriating to me. I, I just think it's so, I think it's unfair for everyone. I think obviously it's unfair to shame people. And I mean, I saw people openly, I saw black patients openly be shamed and treated differently. But then it's also not fair to the, the dietetic interns and the students who are trying to understand the world that they're about to enter, and you're not giving them all the information that they need. You're not giving them the tools to process it. So it just feels like everybody loses.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, through your newsletter and on Instagram, you've taken this position of the anti-racist dietician and I'm, I'm really curious if you could help us understand a little bit more about what that actually means. What is the process towards becoming anti-racist in the context of nutrition and dietetics?Anjali: Yeah. Well first I wanna say I chose anti-racist because to me it felt like the antithesis of what you think of when you think of a dietician. And I wanted it to be a word that was a little bit challenging because I think especially in an overwhelmingly white field like dietetics, it's easy to hide behind words like diversity, equity, inclusion, like things that are more easy to swallow.Laura: They're palatable. Mm-hmm. Anjali: Yes. whereas anti-racist, it's like, no, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about racism and we're all part of it. So that was kind of why I went in that direction with the name And, Sorry, can you repeat the question?Laura: Yeah, no, I, I guess what I'm, I'm curious about, and sorry if I might have worded it kind of weirdly, but I suppose what I'm asking about what, what does it mean to be anti-racist in the context of nutrition and dietetics and, you know, that could be for you personally, but also kind of more broadly speaking as well.Anjali: Yeah. So I, for me, being anti-racist is not only taking a personal stance of I am dedicated to sort of rooting out racism and calling it out when I see it. I am dedicated to the lifelong practice of looking, just always trying to improve the way that I treat people, my understanding of other people's lives and, um, just being vulnerable, admitting mistakes and learning from them.I think that that is the only way to be, uh, truly anti-racist is to admit, like, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to learn things along the way. And, you have to be okay with that vulnerability and maybe even like shame and humiliation about how you made someone else feel. And I think that, I wish that we could bring this into the dietetics education of just that viewpoint.Like, um, getting comfortable with that. Honestly, I think it starts with being in a group of people who aren't like you. And so you can't be assured that what you say is going to be acceptable and understandable by everyone. You need to be challenged by people who are bringing other viewpoints to the table and who feel comfortable, and safe enough to call you on that.And it's when, if the room is 83% white as it is in dietetics in the us, no person of colour or very few will feel comfortable stepping up and speaking up because it is not a safe space for them.Laura: Yeah, so I think it's, you know, safe to say that nutrition and dietetics has a white supremacy problem, both in terms of the makeup and representation of people who actually become dieticians. And we were kind of speaking off mic a little bit before about just the, the barriers of entry to accessing nutrition and dietetics as a profession.But then I think there are also the structural things as well that are upheld by institutions that, that hold power within the profession. So in the US it's the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. In the UK it's the Association for Nutrition in the British Dietetic Association. And I think they form some like mega conglomerate of nutrition associations as well, which is also like really weird power hoarding.But, yeah, so I, I'm wondering, you know, for maybe any, Nutrition students or actual practicing professionals who are newer to this work and, and don't really fully understand like the, the extent of the problem besides just, you know, representation in invert commas. It maybe it would be helpful for us to give some examples of, you know, where it maybe shows up in our counselling and our recommendations and maybe some of the structural side of things as well.Anjali: Sure. Um, well, I can also talk a little bit about I, what I see as the missed opportunities that if, so first, I mean, the first just huge missed opportunity is to just admit mistakes and say we're sorry. You know, dietetics was a field that was established to kind of give white women scientific legitimacy and like many fields established to empower white women, it, it's did that by disempowering women and men of colour. And so I think it starts with that, just admitting, you know, we have made mistakes along the way, but we want to, to do better. You can't really heal and change until you take that first step. And in not taking that step and in sort of doubling down on No, we're, we're making the changes that need to be made, just don't ask too much about what we're doing. They're just missing out on an opportunity to really serve, really like serve dieticians better by giving them the resources they need to more effectively and empathetically work with clients of colour and, and communities of colour, you know, immigrant communities. I was talking to a friend and just talking about like, how amazing would it be if, if we could turn to our professional organization for resources around, you know, like culturally appropriate recommended food lists for different diet-related diseases for, for patients of all different cultures. They have the money to do that, you know, they have money to do so many things, and it seems like that is just a baseline, just very baseline what, what dieticians need in order to better serve the people that they work with.Laura: Just to kind of like, just to go back a, a tiny second, I, I think what we're saying is that the, the roots of the nutrition and dietetic profession were sort of established in the image of white supremacy, I think is maybe one, one way to, to think about it. And for context, for people who, who maybe aren't familiar, didactics is an evolution of home economics as a profession. And at the time of its creation, it was considered to be this like super empowering scientific evolution of that profession. But what Anjali, you are saying is that yes, and it only liberated and empowered white women.And as a result, ended up creating this deep inequity in, not just in the people who could access the profession, but also in the way that we practice nutrition and dietetics. Because it's then not reflective and not inclusive of the folks that we are going, that we are, you know, ostensibly trying to help.Anjali: Yeah. Because if it's only white women deciding what healthy food is, and then, and those white women are the ones that the government are like, oh, they are the ones that are following the latest scientific research and they're the experts. So we're gonna ask them what is healthy food. And now the government is using their ideas around healthy food to inform so many different policies from what we serve in schools, to what's on My Plate, which is what we, we use to kind of talk about the ideal healthy diet.And in just kind of, you know, we talked a little bit about the characteristics earlier off mic, talked about some of the characteristics of white supremacy that show up in dietetics, and there are so many, but, um, just this is making me think about the worship of the written word.And now that, now that it's all about, like, well we're scientific, so you have to take us seriously because we're a scientific profession now. So if it hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal, is it true? But so many cultures, you know, nutrition knowledge is passed down. Through oral, through, you know, people who maybe don't have a scientific degree, but have been taking care of members of their community for their entire lives, like at these other alternative ways of passing down important nutrition know knowledge.But because it is not written down in a venue that is deemed, you know, authoritative, then it doesn't, it's not true. It doesn't matter.Laura: Oh, so many things that I just wanna kind of like touch on, you know, that, that you've mentioned there, cuz this is like a really important aspect of what we're talking about. So first of all, you mentioned white supremacy culture and I don't think a lot of people are aware that the, the characteristics of white supremacy culture have been kind of, not that this is like the be all and end almost, you know, comprehensive, there's lots of ways that white supremacy culture shows up. But what we are talking about specifically when we say the characteristics of white supremacy culture is from a piece by Kenneth Jones and Tema Oak Hunt from the Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change text, which I'll link to in the show notes.And I think it's a really important read for people who are like, aren't familiar with what we're talking about when we talk about the characteristics of white supremacy culture. So that's the first thing that I wanted to say. And then, yeah, this, the second thing around what you're naming is epistemologies or, or ways of knowing, that, that are outside the realms of science.And you know, in nutrition and dietetics, we are told, we are taught that science is the be all and end all. And if there isn't any evidence to support a recommendation, then we can't use it. And what ends up happening is, I mean so many things, but we end up weaponising science to gaslight recommendations that, or medicines that, have been passed down through different cultures for, you know, eons and eons. And then I think about what happens there in terms of, of a really creating a really imbalanced power dynamic as well between the, the clinician, the practitioner and the client and, and how that really renders people powerless in that interaction.Anjali: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also, when, when you're talking about it now, I'm just thinking about it, you know, if you are a nutrition student or an intern coming from a culture that does have these long cultural practices that sort of disagree with, with what your textbook is saying, just that feeling of disconnection and pain that, that causes of, okay well I either have to sort of turn my back on my family, my friends, my ancestors, or be weak in front of my professors and my fellow interns. So we're just putting, we're putting people from other cultures that want to enter the field into a really painful place, I think.Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm wondering, I think that was a helpful way to kind of illustrate what some of you know, why this is something that we need to address in the field of nutrition, not just in field of nutrition and dietetics, but everywhere, but, you know, using the lens of nutrition and dietetics. I wondered, you know, if we could talk maybe a little bit more about something you touched on before, which was about nutrition recommendations in things like, you know, the dietary guidelines that were recommended and something that you wrote about recently, which I'll link to as well, is the recommendation that, you know, everyone should have milk. And this is a very specifically US example, but I think it's a really good one, a really important one. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about, you know, how the, the unbearable whiteness of milk?Anjali: Okay. . Yeah, so, I don't know how it is in the UK but um, the My Plate, which sort of is the consumer-facing ideal plate for people, has a serving of dairy on this side. And It all struck me as interesting, even as a student or just like confusing because, I think something like 60% of the world, 65% of the world actually can't digest lactose as adults.So because of this recommendation for dairy in schools in the US, students have to take a carton of milk with their lunch unless they have a written note from a doctor exempting them, in which case they can take something like soy milk.Laura: So, can I just clarify something? And again, like my, I haven't worked or studied in the US for a long time, but my understanding was that, and I think this is why it's particularly pernicious, is that if you are on, So there's like different tiers of school lunches in the US, there's kids who just pay full price because they can afford it. And so this program is kind of means based. And for, poorer kids, they can either get a reduced cost or free lunch. However, if you're, if you're just buying your lunch, you can just, I think you can just get whatever you want off of the line. But if you are, if you qualify for a reduced or free lunch, you have to take certain components. So you have to take like a fruit, a vegetable, the whole grain, the protein, and this carton of milk. Is that, is that still theAnjali: Thank you for clarifying. So the reason why it needs to be on the tray is so the school can get reimbursed by the federal government for that meal. So it's most relevant for students who are getting the free or reduced-price lunch, because meals...Laura: Sorry, I was just gonna say, those are disproportionately the people who can't drink the milk. Anjali: Oh, yeah, so it's mostly, it varies by like racial background, but the major, like vast majority of people of colour do not have the ability to digest lactose in adulthood. So it doesn't quite, you know, this whole program was set up in the 1940s, so in a lot of ways it doesn't really make sense anymore, just because, you know, that was like a different time when the country had different needs of not only needing to support the dairy system, but also, you know, kids were suffering more from like under nutrition and milk was a very easy way to get a lot of calories, fat, vitamins, things like that. So it's just a different time and place and it's also why are we operating... in the article I talk about if, if, you know, lactose intolerance, only affected 5% of the population, which is the case if you have Northern European ancestry, then it would make sense that it's on those who can't digest lactose to get the note from the doctor exempt, you know, get their alternative drink.But we're operating from a place where public schools in the US are disproportionate and recipients of free and reduced lunch in particular, are disproportionately black and brown students who disproportionately cannot digest lactose. But we aren't starting with their reality as the defaults.Instead, it's sort of the reality of the white students who can drink lactose and, and they're the starting place. Because, you know, if you are studying any sort of like health behaviour you know, anytime you erect a barrier to get to the sort of outcome you're looking for, it's going to, people are gonna drop off. So if it's you have to go, well, first you have to have health insurance and have a doctor for your child. Already a barrier. Then you have to take time off work to bring your child to the doctor in order to get the, get the diagnosis of lactose intolerance and get the note to give to your school. So just all these different barriers that are erected, that are making it harder for families of colour to just get a drink that's not going to cause their child's digestive distress. It just seems really, I don't know, kind of,Laura: Regressive and backwards and yeah, like harmful, violent.Anjali: Mm-hmm.Laura: I mean, and like, I think we could spend all day talking about how this shows up. You know, I'm thinking about it in the, the context of parenting for a second as well, and how these nutrition recommendations kind of filter through to the public, but in a way that becomes like, again, like slow violence where, I'm thinking of it in the context of infant feeding, for example, and I'm not sure how it is in the US now, but in the UK there's this like real push, especially from white nutritionists on Instagram, that you should be pushing green foods first for your child to help them develop a taste for savoury foods.And, there are these like really wild, kind of like two-week feeding schedules with like different savoury tastes for your infant that you need to start them on. You're like nodding, like, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Right? And like I had, you know, I have friends who, we have kids around the same age and they, when they came to weaning, they were coming to me being like really stressed out about this green foods first thing, because that's not the foods, those aren't the foods that they eat culturally. And they were really concerned that they were doing harm or, or like causing this irreparable damage to their child by not giving them these foods and just causing so much stress and anxiety.So it's just like another way that this, this shows up in the world of parenting. And yeah, like I said, we could probably sit and think of examples all day long, I just thought that was a pertinent one as well.Anjali: Yeah. I just have no more patience for making people feel bad about their choices based on these white-centered principles of what is healthy. And it, it's just really frustrating. I think living in a place like New Orleans that has a food culture that is really strong and vibrant and really different from, pretty much every recommendation that is, is given by any sort of nutrition body, I really, I just couldn't stomach telling people, you know, Oh, that dish your grandmother has been making for your entire life that her grandmother made for her entire life, it's just, you just shouldn't be eating it.Laura: Or here's a way to healthify it and completely likeAnjali: Oh yes, Um, and yeah, uh, it was just embarrassing and sad. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't, I couldn't stomach it anymore.Laura: So, I'm just wondering for students or professionals who are, are listening to this or reading the transcript and resonating with what you're saying, who are feeling that discomfort in their body when they're, you know, their preceptors in their internship are like, You have to recommend brown rice when like this, the person in front of them, all, all their family knows is, is white rice. And that's just like one tiny example obviously, but one of many, yeah, that they're feeling that discomfort and that disconnect and they, they want to kind of, I suppose, interrogate this a little bit more and, and start to make changes in their practice and, and, and have the tools, I suppose to create change more systemically. Aside from your substack, which I will obviously link to, what are the, the resources and, and the places that you are looking to, to help with this work?Anjali: So, I would say just in, just to find a safe person or place, in person to discuss those things. It's really hard and potentially dangerous to your internship to speak up in the moment because there is that power, um, differential between preceptors and the interns. But I also think it's really important to be able to process it. I was lucky in my internship, and I, I don't know if this is always the case, but in, in most of my rotations I had a partner and my car kind of became, or her car were like the places where we just deconstructed what we had seen. You know? Did that give you a weird feeling? Me too. And just being able to talk about that and, you know, if you can't find that in person, then just talking to someone on the phone, just anyone where you can just decompress, get it out and, and walk through it, because I think it is, it just kind of like rocks you from the inside to witness these moments that you know are wrong and harmful and to not be able to speak about them. And then honestly, I, it's kind of been frustrating because I set up my Instagram in 2020 when it was like, Oh, I think dieticians are ready to talk about this.Had to step away because like you had a, had a, an infant and just couldn't, couldn't keep up with it. And came back to it earlier this year to to take a deep dive with my newsletter and was like, Wait, nothing has happened. No other avenues have opened up. I'm in a couple Facebook groups, one called hashtag inclusive dietetics that was, I think, established for some sort of research study, and it's not that active. But that's like one small place where, you know, for example, a student recently posted about a problematic assignment that she got, she or, or they. And then that's kind of it.So honestly, with, with my newsletter, I hope to build up a community where people can gather, that do wanna talk about these issues because I, I myself, I'm kind of like want to create the thing that I have been unable to find. Outside of nutrition, dietetics, I think there are a lot of, places to gather, you know, I find a lot of affinity in my public health groups because racism as a public health problem is something that we study. And I am involved with a couple local food policy councils. That's something I wanna write about, um, upcoming is just like how much opportunity there is to both like support change in the food system through a local food policy council, but also just meet like-minded people.And I very rarely meet dieticians who are part of these councils. But you know, each, each one has a racial equity subcommittee that I'm also a part of. So it's just a place to be able to talk through some of these issues. And a lot of times they can be very localised to where you live. Like what is the history of your town, what kinds of racist systems were established over the years and how can you dismantle them?And to be honest, like it's much easier to pass policy change at the local level and can, can make a huge impact, people that live there. So personally, that's where I find that kind of support.Laura: Yeah. So it's, it sounds like what has been really important to you is, is kind of getting stuck in, into that, like, into the, the work as it were, like doing the work, getting involved at a local kind of policy level, organisational level. And what I might do as well is just link in the show notes to a couple of like books and resources and things if people want to just kind of maybe, you know, and I'm speaking from my experience here, like I don't always feel like I have the language and the tools and that's also white supremacy culture showing like it doesn't have to be perfect, but if you want to have kind of a baseline understanding of like, you know, some of the issues, some of the ways that white supremacy, you know, shows up, then there are definitely a couple of books that might be able to help you with that as you're trying to find your feet. And I'm speaking specifically to white people here. And I think the other thing that I wanted to say is, you know, white nutritionists, dietitians, white students, it's on you to be doing the work that might not be safe for our colleagues of colour whether that's in professional organisations, whether that's in university settings. Like I, I get, like, I get that it's also, you know, when it's your degree, it's, it can also be not safe to, to say anything but where you have some power to push back, please use that, you know, and keep yourself safe also.Anjali: I think it's so important that everyone do some sort of anti-racism training that forces you to confront your own internalised issues. And I, you know, I think reading books and educating yourself is so important, but there's no replacement for that experience of, especially if you can be in a room or in a Zoom space with people from other backgrounds from you and make mistakes. I think that's such an important experience to have, just to know that I can make mistakes and I will bounce back from it. Also, maybe if you're not used to, I'm shouldn't be speaking right now. Like, this isn't my place to speak. No one needs to know my opinion on this right now. And I feel those spaces are places where you will get called out on that. And I think that's a good experience. So I went through the Undergoing Racism Training, through the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond. Highly recommend that. I believe it's a three day training if you can get your employer to pay for anything like that. I think this type of training is more helpful than say, like an anti-bias training because really talking about the roots of things, after I did the training, I basically felt like sick, like I felt like I had a cold for like three days afterwards because I just really had to go deep into myself, both my own internalised issues about others, and then also realising like how white supremacy had affected me. So I think it's important, you know, BIPOC people, white people, everyone should do that type of really challenging work least once in your life.Laura: Yeah. And, I think what you're naming there is so important. It's something that with, that folks with a lot of privilege especially are not at all used to, which is sitting with discomfort. And I think that's what your invitation is really, is to sit in the discomfort and that's where deep learning and deep growth happens. You know, we can intellectualise things all we want by reading it in a book, but the actual work is in sitting in that discomfort and you're only gonna be put in that discomfort if you're, you know, in a room full of people that will challenge you and, will push you.So yeah, thank you for, for naming that. And, I will link to that training in the show notes. And also I'll include some trainings for UK-based folk as well because there are some great people in the UK doing this work in earlier settings in, you know, other organisational settings. So yeah, please check those out. Before we like wrap up, was there anything else that like, felt really important to say.Anjali: Um, just that, you know, I think that people do have the ability and the opportunity to make change in their individual workplaces. Even if, you know that isn't coming from the higher ups in the nutrition and dietetics world. You can, you can change, you know, how you interact with clients to make it less you know, rooted in paternalism or, do more to create true deep community engagement with the communities that you, you work with.And, until, until we do get that wide-scale change, I think, like, don't feel, don't feel disempowered, don't feel crushed by how much needs to get done. I think there are small changes that people can make, just by changing their mindset and, and taking that step to serve people better.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. I think that's, it can feel, yeah, when you are trying to tackle a huge system that can feel really disempowering. So just thinking about, okay, what are the, what are the little things that I can do to make someone I'm working with feel more comfortable, feel more held and seen and, yeah, not lectured to.At the end of every episode we share something that we've been snacking on. So it can be a literal snack or it can be just something that you recommend and want to share with the audience. So, do you mind sharing what you are snacking on right now?Anjali: Yeah, so my mine is sort of a like a life practice and then with an actual physical product to recommend. So life practice is that on Fridays, in my household we started doing screen-free 24 hours. So starting on Friday when my kids get home from school. And that's been really great just in general cuz I have an eight-year-old and he was getting towards the, like I just wanna be on my iPad all the time. It was really difficult at first. My husband described it as watching train spotting like the first night that he couldn't have his screen after school he was just sort of lying in the snow.We've been doing this for about nine months now. But now, you know, everyone's sort of in a rhythm and after, our two-year-old goes to bed, my husband, eight-year-old, and I play a board game together. That's sort of our wind down thing on Fridays. So, that's been really nice because I love board games, played a lot of them with my family growing up and, my husband and I are kind of into a lot of like indie board games. So one that we've been playing all at lately is called Wingspan and it's very peaceful and soothing. You just have these different habitats and you populate them with birds. So the cards are like really beautiful, these watercolour paintings of birds with different facts about them. It has a lot of components that I won't go into, but it's just, it's very fun. Like you do different rounds, there's these little egg sort of game pieces that are really satisfying in their colour. You know, like I feel like the feeling of a game piece is like 25% of the experience of playing a game. So yeah, it's just a fun, interesting, sort of unique game that is a really good time for the whole family. So we've been into that.Laura: That's really cute. I need to check that out. My husband loves an obscure board game. Our like cupboards are full of things that we can never play because our toddler does not sleep.Anjali: Aw.Laura: I'm also jealous of, of the fact that your child like, goes to bed time that allows you to still have somewhat of an evening.Okay. So my, my snack, if you will, is actually a meal. This is a recipe that has been kind of having like a bit of a moment on Instagram, so people might have seen it, but it's Ruby Tandoh's Chilli Crisp Gnocchi. I don't know if you are familiar with Ruby's work, but like, she just released her cookbook, Cook As You Are, in the US and like she shared this recipe and it's just kind of like taken on a life of its own it seems. But it's the simplest, easiest, quickest like week-time dinner that has like five ingredients, literally takes 15 minutes and is so delicious.So, you basically just cook the gnocchi, then you melt some butter in a fry pan, toss in the chilli crisp oil, add in some capers, and then like coat the gnocchi with that mixture and then add some parmesan and it sounds bonkers, but it's so delicious and I..Anjali: ThatLaura: I keep a couple of gnocchi aside for my two-year-old who probably won't eat anyway because he is two, and like just put some like, but like melted butter and cheese on that for him.And then I just like stir fry some veggies quickly on the side and that's like it, and it's so delicious and so easy. So I'll link to the recipe for that. Her cookbook is really good as well. It's all about like really quick and accessible meals that don't have a ton of ingredients and it's like split into sections of like, I'm really hungry and I wanna eat right now, versus like recipes where you have a bit more time to invest in them. So yeah, that's my thing.Anjali, can you please share where we can find you on the internet?Anjali: Sure. So, um, you. Read and subscribe to my Substack at anjaliruth.substack.com. Um, my first name is A-N-J-A-L-I. My middle name is Ruth, named after my great aunt. And then my Instagram is @antiracistrd - those are the two best ways. Yeah.Laura: Yeah, I'll link to all of that in the show notes. And also like some of the, the pieces that we mentioned you've talked about like sort of your path to becoming anti-racist dietician and also like that whole milk fiasco. So I'll link to both of those. Anjali, it was really great to actually be able to talk to you in real life as opposed to just messaging on the internet. So thank you for being here and I'm excited for everyone to go check out your newsletter cause it really is great.Anjali: Thanks so much, Laura.OUTRO:Laura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Eating is supposed to be fun, so why does food culture – from our table manners to the promise of “clean eating” – trigger so much anxiety? Ash Sarkar meets Ruby Tandoh, former Great British Bake-Off contestant and author of Cook As You Are, to talk about the new wave of food writing and her […]

Today I'm talking to Rachel Millner - a psychologist, Certified Eating Disorder Specialist and Supervisor, and a Certified Body Trust® provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating and those wanting to break free from diet culture. This episode dives into the stickier, messier parts of anti-diet parenting (which I think we can all relate to!) and Rachel tells us how she is creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food: misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kid's weight so as to protect them from shame (and all the complexity of that). This is such an open and honest conversation where Rachel names all of the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does, which I really appreciated.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Rachel here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full.Rachel MillnerI always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.Laura ThomasHey, welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Rachel Millner.Rachel is a psychologist, certified eating disorder specialist and supervisor, and a certified body trust provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating, and those who want to break free from diet culture.In this episode, we talk all about the stickier, messier parts of anti diet parenting. We talk about how Rachel's twins have really different needs when it comes to food. And how she's creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food, misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kids' weights so as to protect them from shame and the complexity of that whole conversation. She also shares her experiences as a fat parent and how she sits with the discomfort of feeling judged by other parents. I really appreciated how Rachel names the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does.Before we get to Rachel's episode, just a reminder that we're now in October, which means that if you haven't already switched to a paid membership of Can I Have Another Snack then you are missing out on the cool community only features like our weekly discussion threads, snacky bits, and our monthly Dear Laura Column, plus, this month you'll get my Raising Embodied Eaters download. And if you're listening to this on the Friday that it goes out, so that's the 7th of October, there will be a super juicy and personal piece that I have written going out to subscribers only this weekend. So if you've been thinking about becoming a paid subscriber, then now is the time. It's five pounds per month or 50 pounds for the year. And if you can't afford that right now, but you really feel like you'd benefit from this content, then just email hello@laurathomahsphd.co.uk and put snacks in the subject line. No explanation necessary.Just a quick thank you to those of you who have already subscribed. It really means a lot, and I appreciate you putting your belief in this work and helping me make this writing project sustainable.All right, gang, here's Rachel.Laura ThomasAll right, Rachel I would love it if you could share with us who or what are you nourishing right now? Rachel MillnerYeah. My kids, myself, our two dogs, friends, family. It feels like this time of year especially, there's lots around me that need nourishing, which means I also need nourishing. Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like you've got a full plate of people and animals that, that kind of need attending to, and I'm, I'm curious to hear how you make space for yourself in amongst all of that.Rachel MillnerYeah. It's interesting when you just said that, it made me think also about, between my kids and my animals, how different their needs are. Like I have two kids, two animals, and their needs are wildly different. And how my needs also change from day to day and week to week. And that there are definitely days and weeks that I get lost in the shuffle.You know, I think being socialized female, I'm a single mom by choice. And so, you know, I think that sometimes it's hard to remember that, I need to make sure I'm nourishing myself. And not just with food, but in general, like with connection and with time to zone out and relax and not be having to take care of somebody else.Laura ThomasI hadn't realized that you were a solo parent and that, I mean, just sending you loads of compassion because I find parenting one child with a partner to be a lot. So how old are your kids?Rachel MillnerI have twins and they're 10. Laura ThomasOh twins. I didn't realize that they were twins. Okay. That sounds awesome And terrifying in equal measure.Rachel MillnerThat's a good way to describe it. Laura ThomasAnd I'm so curious. This idea, like what you were saying about the kids and the animals, and sorry if it's really weird to compare your kids with your pets, but I feel like you did say it first, it's fair game. But like what were you thinking of there when you said that their needs were like, wildly different?Rachel MillnerMy kids, even though they're twins could not be more opposite and we, my kids also laugh at how our two dogs sort of mirror and parallel them in personality.And so they're, they need different kinds. I mean, for my kids they need different kinds of parenting. They need different types of food. They need different kinds of boundaries. They need different types of support in school. And. You know, obviously the pets are not in school and that kind of thing, but same, they need different boundaries, they need different ways to like have support in making sure that they are not doing things they're not supposed to do in the house. And yeah. So I think attunement is probably the word that comes to mind when I think about all of their needs and trying to be attuned to, you know, what my kids are needing in any given moment.And also trying to explain to my kids why I may respond to one of them differently than the other. And helping them understand the ways that they're unique and that their needs are different.Laura ThomasHmm. I'm really curious just because this is where my brain defaults to, but when you're talking about they have different needs around food, you're talking about each of the twins, right?Rachel MillnerYes. Laura ThomasRather than the twins vs the dogs right? Rachel MillnerYeah, yeah, the dogs eat the same food. Laura ThomasAnd, and yeah. I'm, I'm just interested to dig into that a little bit more and hear your approach to that Rachel MillnerI have one kid who's a really adventurous eater. He is a kid who will try pretty much anything.It doesn't mean he is gonna like it, but he's usually up for tasting something. And I have another kid who would rather stick with the foods that he knows he likes. He tends to be more like brand specific. So like, he likes pizza, but he likes certain pizzas or, you know, So I think I shared this on social media at one point, but an example of how tuned in he is to what he likes and doesn't like is There's a particular kind of potato chip that he likes and they come in big bags and then they come in like the little snack size bags.Laura ThomasSure. Rachel MillnerAnd so for school, I'm like, Okay, let's, we can get the snack size bags cuz they fit in your lunch box. It's a lot easier. And he's like, No, they taste different. And I'm like, it's literally like the same chip, same brand, same flavor, just one's in a big bag and one's in a smaller bag. And he's like, No, they taste different.So we did a taste test and I put them in like baggies and I didn't label them for him. I put like whole chips in and I knew which was in which baggy, and I did like two bags of each so that he couldn't just get lucky with a guess. Laura ThomasYeah, yeah, yeah. Rachel MillnerAnd sure enough, he got it exactly right. He was like, These are from the big bag and these are from the small bag.I can't tell a difference. I taste these chips. They taste exactly the same to me. But to him, that's how discerning he is with taste and flavor. And so it was really helpful for me to realize that when he says something doesn't taste good to him or that he can tell a difference that he really can tell a difference.And, so it was just a real eye opening experience to see how he could tell the difference between something that like, I think for the vast majority of us, we would eat it and it would taste exactly the same. Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like he is very sensitive to these minute changes and differences in who knows if it's a, a texture, a flavor, a scent even if, you know, we know that some kids are just very sensory hypersensitive. And it sounds like that's the kind of kiddo you have. Rachel MillnerYes, for sure. He's like that across the board and I don't know why I was able to so clearly see that in other realms and with food, I understood that he had certain foods he liked and other foods that he was like, I don't, I'm not interested in it.And that was fine. I understood that, but I did not, until we did this sort of taste test, have a really deep understanding of how sensitive he was to different tastes and flavors. Laura ThomasAnd it's, it's making me think of a conversation that I have pretty frequently with parents, which is around this idea that, you know, in so many different domains, we trust our kids, we believe them, you know, when they tell us something isn't quite right, we are very attuned to their needs and, you know, really encourage them to be independent and encourage them to use their voice to speak up when something doesn't feel right until it comes to food where we are constantly undermining their instincts. And I don't mean that as a judgment, but just as an observation and, you know, we can trace that back quite clearly to diet culture and usually anti-fat bias.But yeah, I just wondered your thoughts on that. Rachel Millner:Yeah, I see that a lot. And I think absolutely diet, culture, anti-fat bias have an impact. I also think there's, you know, this message to parents that food is something that we are supposed to control in some way. That we are supposed to know some way to feed our kids that is going to allow them to have whatever vision of a relationship with food, which is usually rooted in diet and anti-fat bias.And that we sometimes somehow have control over that. Laura Thomas: Yeah. Rachel MillnerThat if we expose them to certain foods, if we feed them certain things, that somehow that's gonna predict an outcome. Laura ThomasYeah. Yeah. And it's, it's so, it's so pernicious because it goes all the way even to like preconception, pregnancy, this idea that, you know, if you eat fricking kale, that your baby can taste it in the amniotic fluid, which is definitely true.But then the extension of that logic is that, you know, you can program your child to be a perfect eater, which is totally antithetical to the information that we have around food neophobia. And it's also ableist as hell because of what we just talked about, that there are people who are neuro divergent. I, I don't know if that's true for your kid or not. Rachel MillnerIt's neuro divergent. Yeah. Laura ThomasYeah. So, you know, to say that, you know, or to even give parents this false promise that their kids are gonna be, you know, just, mainlining kale and broccoli.It's just so unrealistic. And like I said, ableist because we know that even for, even for neurotypical kids, that a developmental stage that they're most likely going to go through is that food neophobic stage where they pretty much reject everything that isn't beige food. Rachel MillnerYeah. There's such, it's all such bullshit, right?Like there's so many layers of problems with these messages. I mean, just starting with like, I don't know that many pregnant people who really want to eat kale and broccoli. Laura ThomasSeriouslyRachel MillnerWhen I was pregnant, like kale would've been the last thing that I would've wanted to eat. So like these messages to pregnant people that we're supposed to forgo our own cravings and our own desires, because somehow we have this, you know, responsibility to our children, is a problem.The idea that like somehow we're doing a better job if our kids come out wanting kale is a problem. Like, why don't we want our kids to come out, wanting, I don't know, ice cream or some other dessert food, like why are we like elevating kale or you know, whatever over some other food. Laura ThomasAbsolutely. Rachel MillnerYou know? And then like you said, the ableism. And I always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.You know, sometimes people have some of the like healthism that's in there too, but I would say the vast majority of the time, if people are really honest with themselves and able to like dig deeper, the answer to that question is no. Laura ThomasYeah. I love that as a kind of litmus test for, you know, what, what's actually going on.And yeah, as you were speaking there about the, the healthism side of things, I was thinking yeah, but if you peel back that layer underneath that is most likely some anti-fat bias and it, yeah, I think we need to kind of really sit with that and, and what it is that we're afraid of. And what I often encourage parents to do is notice what's coming up for them as well in terms of their relationship with food.Cuz I think that when we have anxieties about what our kids are or aren't eating, it's often a reflection of what might be going on for us in terms of our own relationship with food. What are your thoughts on that? Rachel MillnerYeah, I totally agree with that. I think that's absolutely the case and you see it in a lot of different directions with parents, you know, where either they feel like they've had a disordered relationship with food and they think they're trying to prevent that in their kids, but do it in a misguided way.I've seen a lot for parents who are in larger bodies. Wanting to prevent their kids from being in larger bodies because the parents have experienced weight stigma and know how much pain and shame there can be with that. And so this idea that if I can prevent my child from being fat, I can protect them from the anti-fat bias and weight stigma that I've endured.And so I've seen a lot of that. Like I think there's so much about, as parents, our own experiences around food and body that guides what we do. Laura ThomasI was frantically trying to write down, like, make note of what you were saying there so that I could come back and ask you about it. Because yeah, you hit on two things that were really important and I'd love to go back and, and unpack them both a little bit more.So the first one, remind me what that was. Rachel MillnerThat for parents who have had a disordered relationship with food and that they're trying in a misguided way to prevent their kids from having a disordered relationship with food. Laura ThomasSo can you unpack that a little more? What, what do you mean by a misguided way to kind of protect their relationship with food?Rachel MillnerI think that sometimes parents will limit access to food. So with the idea that if I don't have my kid eat certain foods, then their relationship with food is gonna be more intuitive than, you know, the parents' relationship was. I've seen, it was interesting. I was with a parent recently and they were talking about sort of the internal conflict around both wanting their child to eat in order for them to have an internal instinct to eat. Because they had experienced being in school where a lot of kids had eating disorders, and so they wanted to make sure that their kid felt really confident with eating and eating consistently.And at the same time, they were giving messages about what foods were and weren't okay to eat because they were worried about not wanting their kid to only eat certain types of foods and. I know that this parent was really trying to support their kid and not having a disordered relationship with food.And I was listening to what they were saying and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what a mind fuck. Right? For the parent and the kid, like there's so much anxiety there of like this constant like trying to like balance out these like opposing messages all coming from a good place in the parent. Laura ThomasAnd sometimes it's not even what we say, but what we do and the example I see of this over and over and over again is where, you know, we're in theory practicing this concept of food neutrality, right?So, you know, we are not calling foods a treat. There's no good or bad foods, or no healthier, unhealthy foods. And yet sweets never come into the house or sweets only come into the house on special occasions, and, and so there's a real disconnect. I wrote about this actually in an article that went out today on my Substack, so I'll link back to that for anyone who missed it.But it's, yeah, this idea that Well, I guess what I was thinking about when I was writing that piece is that kids are so fucking perceptive, right? It's not always about what you are or aren't saying, but, but also if you're not showing that in your actions as well, if you're not, you know, practicing this concept of, of food neutrality, it's not gonna translate.And, and they're gonna pick up on that message despite the best of your intentions. Rachel MillnerTotally. That's so true. And yeah, not bringing certain foods into the house or only having them sometimes, or having them, but only offering them at certain times. And actually this is, it's a theme I even hear in like the intuitive eating world.Laura ThomasYes!Rachel MillnerWhere people will say, Oh, if you raise kids who are exposed to all different kinds of foods and you don't elevate one food over another they're gonna have less interest in certain foods. And I'll often hear the example of, Oh, you know, the kid who was raised with more access, you know, at a birthday party when they're given cake and ice cream might only eat a little bit of it.Whereas the kids who have been deprived might eat all of it and then want more and more. And that's still sending a message that only eating part of those foods is like holding it up and elevating it as like the better way of nourishing their body. Like it's used as an example of like, look what we've done. These kids are not eating all of the cake and all of the ice cream. And so I think even in the intuitive eating world, there's these messages. Laura ThomasAnd I'm gonna hold my hands up and say that I, I've, you know, played into that narrative. I think in some of the things that I've said and written, but I, it's something I've been reflecting a lot on lately is, you know, how in inadvertently the anti diet parenting world in, you know, trying to raise our kids to be attuned to their bodies, a lot of the advice that gets put out in that world really parallels and mirrors, you know, binaries similar to what we see in diet culture. And so, you know, I very much try and caveat because there's two, there are two things going on, right? We know that habituation is a real phenomenon, right? When kids are, have more regular access, you know, when they're more attuned to how it feels in their body to, to have too much or too little sweets, let's just say for argument's sake, that they are, you know, they learn what is an appropriate amount for their body and simultaneously kids fucking love sweetsSo it's totally fine, you know, it is, I don't love the word normal, but you know what I mean, Like it's appropriate that they kind of go nuts around sweets to a certain extent. Does that make sense what, what I'm trying to say? That it's, it's the both and of that. Rachel MillnerYeah. Yeah. I think so.I mean, sweets are delicious and so are lots of other foods. And I really think with sweets, like if there weren't so many cultural messages, how kids would, and adults would, you know, interact with sweets differently. Because even, you know, like my kids are not exposed to any guiding messages at home, but like at school, they are.One of my kids really likes peanut butter cups, the candy. And I had, I think I took the dogs for a walk and I got back and he had, and my kids have full access to whatever they want in the kitchen. And he had taken out a bag of peanut butter cups and they all had individual wrappers.So on the couch when I got back next to him was the bigger bag of peanut butter cups and maybe like, I don't know, eight or 10 of the peanut butter cup individual wrappers. And the thing that struck me was that they were on the couch and there was no shame. Because when I was a kid, If we had had peanut butter cups in the house, which we probably wouldn't have, but if we did and I took the opportunity to eat some, when my parents were out, I would've hid those wrappers at the bottom of a trash can where my parents would never find them.And so it was a reminder to me that what we're really talking about is how to support kids in not having shame around their relationship with food and their body. Laura ThomasI love that. I really, really love that. That's such a, I think, a helpful way to frame this conversation. And I'm wondering, you know, in what other ways do you support that? What does that look like in your house? And, and also by extension, what does that conversation sound like around bodies as well. Sorry, that was like five questions in one, take your pick.Rachel MillnerThat's okay. Yeah, I think I'll start with bodies. I mean, the way that it, what it sounds like around bodies is, you know, all bodies are different.Bodies come in a range of sizes, bodies change all the time. We don't control the size of our bodies. Like, you know, we, that's not something we get to control, that our bodies are really wise. I talk really openly about being in a fat body and we talk really openly about weight stigma and anti-fat bias.We identify it in, you know, shows or, I mean, kid shows are incredibly fat phobic. And so we talk about it there. We, when it comes up in school, we talk about it. When I can predict that something's gonna be fat phobic, I opt them out of it. But then we still have conversations about it. So that's the conversations we have. I make sure they're exposed to images of fat bodies. I make sure they recognize the harm of weight stigma. My one son, we were at an outdoor festival the other day and they went up, they were selling, they had campfires and they were selling like s'more kits that you could buy.And it was likeLaura ThomasAll sounds very wholesome. Rachel. Rachel MillnerYeah. It was super fun. And they, my son came back and he's like, Mommy, I'm confused. And I was like, What are you confused about? And he's like, All of the people selling the food, like who were taking the money, were, he says, were girls and they were all tall and skinny, and all of the people cooking the food were also girls who were short and fat.How come the skinny people were taking the money and the fat people were cooking the food? And that doesn't make any sense. So, like his observation was an opportunity for us to then have a conversation about that. And what are some reasons that might have been, because it's not like these were like places that they were gourmet chefs.Like anybody could have been cooking the food and anybody could have been the money. So why did they have it set up this way? So I think those are the kinds of conversations that we have so they can identify weight stigma when they see it. Laura ThomasIt's so cool to me that, you know, they made that observation and brought that to you to be able to kind of unpack that, like, I don't know. I feel that some parents, well, first of all, some kids might not have even felt comfortable bringing that to their parents in the first place, but then the parents might not have known what to do with it. Because it, it can be really challenging to have these types of conversations.So yeah, it's just feels really cool to me that they, they felt comfortable having that conversation with you. Rachel MillnerYeah, I appreciated that he brought it back to me. And I don't ever want to sound like I always know what to do in these situations. Cause I absolutely fumble through a lot of them and mess up and have to go back later and be like, you know, I was thinking about that and I feel like I got it wrong, or I wanna add to what I was saying before.Laura ThomasYeah, no, we're not into perfect parenting over here. Yeah. I fuck it up daily. And so, Rachel MillnerYes, me too. Laura ThomasWe're all learning and just kind of trying to muddle through this. Yeah. And, and so there's, there's absolutely no judgment here about anything. You know, with some caveats, like if you hurt your child, that's not okay.Rachel MillnerYes. So yeah, we're gonna judge certain things.Laura ThomasCertain things, I will call the cops on your ass, right? So going in a few different directions. But you know, so you started off talking a little bit about how, you know, for, for your kids and, and that particular scenario where they were eating the peanut butter cups that you were really fostering this environment of, of no shame around food.And yeah, again, given that diet, culture messaging is everywhere, I'm sure that they're getting these like nutrition education lessons in school and, you know, told, taught about like my plate or whatever other horse shit. Yeah. Again, it would be great to hear some thoughts about how you are, are, what that looks like in, in your house.Rachel MillnerYeah. So what we talk a lot about is some people haven't learned this stuff yet because I also don't wanna shame their friends or their friends parents or, you know, the school. Like I can name where harm is happening, which I do a lot, is naming like, this is harmful and here's why. And some people haven't learned yet how the impact of weight stigma or that bodies come in all shapes and sizes or that food is neutral and there's no good foods or bad foods. Laura ThomasI think that that's like a really important piece from the perspective of like relating across difference as well, because, you know, we're, our kids are always going to come into contact with people who have different ideas, different beliefs, and how, you know, there's, it's important, I think, to teach them how to, you know, stay in right relationship with people whilst, you know bridging these differences. Rachel MillnerYeah, exactly. I mean, you know, let me be clear, I totally shame the people who voted for Trump or, Laura ThomasOh yeah.Rachel MillnerWe're like, we're in Pennsylvania and I don't, Dr. Oz is running for governor here. Laura ThomasHoly fuck. I thought I saw that somewhere and I was like, no, surely not. That's a real thing? Rachel MillnerYeah, it's a real thing. Laura ThomasThat's, that's terrifying.Rachel MillnerI shame people who are voting for him. But when it comes to where people are in terms of their relationship with food and body, I want my kids to understand the complexity of it and the history of weight stigma and where people have gotten these messages.And I've been open with them in small amounts about my own history and like what my parents were like growing up. And so we've even talked about like, you know, they call my parents Grammy and Poppy and my parents live very close to us and we see them all the time. And my parents are drastically different with my kids than they were with me. I think partly cuz they know I wouldn't let them see my kids if they weren't different about food and body. But what I've told them, cuz my kids will be like, Well why were Grammy and Poppy not nice to you about your body? Or why didn't they let you have certain foods? And I'm like, they didn't know at the time, like, you know, they were doing the best that they could and what they did was not okay. It was harmful, it was trauma. And like some people haven't learned yet and thank goodness Grammy and Poppy have been willing to learn over time and do it differently. And so that's, you know, the way that I talk about it with my kids is just some people haven't learned yet. Laura ThomasIt sounds like you have had to have some potentially quite tough conversations and do a lot of boundary setting is that fair to say?Rachel MillnerYes. And a lot of the hard conversations happened before I had kids. Which I think made it easier in a lot of ways. When I was really actively struggling with an eating disorder that's when a lot of these conversations happened. And so by the time I was having my kids, a lot of this had already changed.My parents, by the time I was having kids, they never would have commented on bodies or talked about, you know, weight loss or anything. Where I am foreseeing, and I'm sort of like bracing myself for when my kids are a little bit older and start to notice the ways that my parents restrict. And you know, like when you were saying earlier, like. kIds notice what we're doing. I think my parents, my kids haven't noticed yet because I don't restrict. And so I think when we're all together, they're more attuned to what I'm doing than to what my parents are doing. But I am sure there's gonna be a point at which they start to pick up on my parents restrictive relationship with food. And so that's another conversation we're gonna have to have. Laura ThomasWe might need to do a part two down the line when you've had that conversation. Because it's just, yeah, it's something that, again I hear parents really struggle with this and you know how to not, you know, it's one thing to set the boundary, it's another thing for, you know, when that person doesn't respect that boundary or you, you know, you have to reinforce and reinforce and reinforce, and there's still, you know, not even that, they're not getting it, they just are like, No, I'm not gonna respect that.It's just such a tough place to be in. But I wanted to jump back to the other kind of challenge that, you know, you were mentioning earlier, sort of two things that you see happen, one of which is sort of a misguided attempt to you know, help someone have a, a good relationship with food, but it sort of, you know, maybe going about it in a way that's perhaps less helpful.And then the other thing that you mentioned was parents in who themselves are fat or in larger bodies, you know, depending on what language you prefer to use, who are trying to prevent their kids from becoming fat because of their own experiences with anti fat bias and weight stigma. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this cause this just feels like such a tough one.Rachel MillnerYeah, it is. And it's so complicated cuz I have so much empathy and understanding of why when a parent is in a fat body, has dealt with a lot of stigma and anti-fat bias and shame around their body size, that, you know, we don't want our kids to experience pain and we wanna protect them. And so there's this idea that if we can somehow prevent our kids from being fat, that we can protect them.And the reality and why parenting is so hard is that we don't get to protect our kids from hurt and pain and we don't have control over their body size. And so I think the ways that we can protect our kids to help them not feel shame about their body, to help them also understand that they don't get to control the size of their body, to teach them that there's nothing wrong with being fat.And then to hold space when they do, if they are in fat bodies, that they do experience weight stigma and be able to talk about it with them and empathize and validate and all of the things that our kids need from us around other issues. You know, it's, it's hard. Like I really, I just have so much empathy, you know, as a fat parent and, you know, thinking about other fat parents and how much we wanna protect our kids. And how hard it is that we don't get to. And you know, I think about it with, anything really, like the response to harm isn't to change ourselves. You know, like if kids are being bullied for something, the ways to address it is not to tell the kid who's being bullied that their body needs to change.The way to address it is with the person who's doing the bullying. And that's true, you know, across the board with anti fat bias. Laura ThomasYes. Which is not the narrative that we hear from public health, right. There's so much victim blaming when it comes to you know, weight stigma, reduction in, in sort of public health.I'm thinking of, there's a specifically a, a report that the World Health Organization put out quite a while ago now, like in 2017, but it, it effectively says, you know, children who experience weight stigma have, you know, lower quality of life and, you know, all this like clinical language that is basically like, yeah, it fucking sucks for kids.And the way that we should resolve that is to make sure that kids are thinner rather than, I'm just like, Is nobody else seeing this? Like how we've just completely flipped the script here and like looking in the wrong place for solutions. Like the solution, yes. I think, you know, there is an aspect of, of this where we can develop, help kids develop resilience and particularly from shame, as you were saying.And at the same time, we need to change the culture, not the child. Rachel MillnerRight. I mean, it's so obvious and it's a reminder of how the, you know, diet industry and they're just, the like narrow-mindedness and inability to be willing to think more critically. It's, I mean, basically like no shit. People who experience oppression and trauma and marginalization struggle more? Like yeah, of course they do.And like maybe we need to figure out how to not oppress people. And not traumatize them. And that it actually has nothing to do with fatness, but they're so unwilling because of money to look more critically. Laura ThomasI was thinking about this from the perspective of public health, nutrition and food, you know, food apartheid, food serenity.These types of issues often get called like food deserts, which isn't really helpful language, but you know, it's the public health nutrition instinct to be like when people can't afford food. The thought process and the logic is, well, let's make food cheaper instead of let's make less people poor. Rachel MillnerRight.Laura ThomasThat's so fucking backwards. It's so regressive. You know, Why wouldn't we try and lift people up out of poverty rather than make fucking kale more affordable? Right? It just makes no sense when you break it down like that. Anyway, I think we're slightly digressing here, but you know, you kinda you touched on a little bit of your own experiences being a fat parent, and I wanted to ask you a little bit more about this if you're comfortable sharing.And, and one thing in particular I hear from, from fat parents who want to parent in, you know, in alignment with their values for you know, reducing, reducing harm in their food parenting. I'm not really quite sure, I haven't really thought about this question as you can tell, but yeah, I suppose parents who want to allow their kids to eat you know, what they want to eat and to have ice cream and to have access to sweet foods and to not restrict and control and micromanage every single mouthful that passes their lips. And at the same time, because they know, right, they know that that's the probably the most protective thing that they can do in terms of that child's relationship with food.And at the same time, they fear the judgment and just the glares from people. And not even just the glares, but the comments that are made. Oh, you know, you're gonna let them eat that? Or have you had enough? You know, like trying to step in and, and police that child on their behalf. And I was just curious, you know, if you've had any experience of situations like this and what you would say to parents in, in a similar position.Rachel MillnerYeah. So I mean, the first thing I wanna say is it sucks, right? It's not your fault and it sucks. And you know, for most of us who still, you know, are unpacking our internalized weight stigma, those moments can bring up a lot of shame. And grounding into what's true in those moments can be so hard to do.Like, you can be flooded because you're trying to deal with what are my kids' needs? What do I need to do to like, support them? What's the judgment that's happening around me? What's it bringing up within me? And that's a lot to hold all at once. What I have found that's helpful for me is one, to have community.So people that I can text and be like, Ugh. This is what's happening. Or like, oh my God, this conversation I'm listening to right now. Or, you know, these people in the way that they're, you know, behaving or what they're doing with their own kids around food. That's really helpful to have that. It like, you know, helps me to remember that like, well, I do have to be with parents, certain parents, they don't have to be my people.Like, you know, they don't have to be the people that are gonna give me that, like, fat positive community. Laura ThomasSure.Rachel MillnerI do try to remind myself that what I'm doing is truth and that like, this isn't really up for debate. Like this isn't, Oh, we have different opinions on something. I mean, we do have different opinions, but we're talking about something that is just true and they are doing something that is rooted in stigma and that's not truth.So I try to remind myself of that. And, you know, some of it is like, it's just hard. Like, you know, as much as I want to say something to make it less hard, like it stinks to be in that situation and it is hard and it can feel really isolating. And you know, sometimes we just have to sit with that and there's not a lot we can do in the moment that's gonna make that feel different, you know, except to try to have people we can reach out to, like I said, and remind ourselves of what we know to be true and that you know, they've been indoctrinated into diet culture and that it's not really about my body, even though it's being projected onto my body. Laura ThomasYeah, Yeah. Wow. There's, I think everything that you've said there is, you're speaking to the messiness of this, the kind of both and of you can, you know, when you, when you can ground yourself and access the part of yourself that knows, like, no, this is, this is aligned with my values and this is the right thing for me to be doing with my kids. And how painful an experience that is. You know, both can be true simultaneously. And yeah, I'm here for the, the messiness and the discomfort of that. The, you know, the, the further into this, like I have a, a two year old and the further into this parenting journey I get, and also as I notice the edges of my body privilege kind of changing as well, I realize more and more how important it is to have that community and have that safe space to be like, can you fucking believe what this asshole just said.Yeah. Like you know, so yeah. That community aspect is, is, is so important. And I hope that, you know, this podcast and, and what I'm doing with the newsletter as well can serve as, I know it's not a replacement for having your people in real life, but that, that there is an element of, of building community here that I, I really want, so. Okay. We have two last questions that I wanna close out with. So, first of all, and it's kind of the flip of the question that I asked you at the beginning, who or what is nourishing you right now? Like we said at the top, like you got a lot of plates spinning, and you're also a badass therapist on top of like, you know, being a single parent of two kids and the pet owner and all of that kind of stuff. So I'm just curious to hear, you know, what's, yeah, what's keeping you afloat? Rachel MillnerTelevision big time is something that nourishes me. Kind of going back to the, the pets. But the second pet we just rescued in the beginning of the summer. And she's two years old and she is just the sweetest, most loving dog. And like, she sleeps in my bed and she like snuggles up. Like she's just the sweetest and she's nourishing me. I know the question is bigger than food, but in terms of food, Laura ThomasNo. I'm so here for the food. Like, cause that's it, it's, food is, it's so integral and it's not, this is not meant to exclude food because I something that, and this is total tangent, it's not anything to do with you, but like reclaiming the joy of food is just such an important piece of this. And in last week's episode, I talked to Julia Turshen about this and how that in and of itself is a privilege. A huge privilege. And that's really, really layered, but the both and of this is that, yeah, food can be nourishing, not on the physical plane, obviously it's that, but on the emotional level as well. So it's, yes. That's my soap box moment. Rachel MillnerSo we have a food here called water ice. I say water ice, everyone's like, that doesn't sound that exciting. Water ice is like a thicker, creamier version of like Italian ice. That is what a lot of people know. Like, kind of,Laura ThomasLike a snow cone kinda thing?Rachel MillnerSo sort of, so think about a snow cone, but a lot creamier and thicker that can come in like a million different flavors.So like last night we went to this water ice place here and I got half peanut butter cup and half pumpkin pie. And it's made with the actual chunks of whatever. So like there's actual peanut butter cups and there's like the graham crackers from like the pumpkin pie crust. And I live in a fairly like small town outside of Philadelphia. And this water ice place that's like five minutes from my house wins like the best water ice of this area, like every year. And it's only open from like March to October, so it closes for this season on Sunday. But when it's open, we go several times every week. They have like rotating flavors, so like, and they're super creative with like what they come up with to make so that throughout like it's sort of like, you know, the like ritual here that like throughout like spring and summer, the water ice is definitely one of the things that nourishes me and my family. My kids love it too. So it's kind of, you know, like our thing that, you know, at the end of the day we'll go and get it and we all enjoy it together. Laura ThomasAnd that's what I was kind of like, that's what came to mind is like you all going together and like sharing a moment. And yes, it's about the food, but it's also about so much more than the food.And, and I think yeah, that there's, you know, the thinking about nourishment from that more expensive perspective. And also just like I couldn't help but laugh when you were like, Oh, it's this like, like very specifically summer, spring, summer warm weather thing and also pumpkin spice flavor, like, or pumpkin pie flavour, I was like, it kind of blew my mind a little bit.And I'm also like, today, the day we're recording, this is like the first like really cold day that we're having here. And I'm like shivering, but refusing to turn my heating on. And you're talking about this like, what sounds like delicious, but is also making me feel really cold. I'm gonna go make myself a cup tea when we get off this call.Alright Rachel, the last question I have for you is what are you snacking on right now? And again, this is kind of a recommendation segment that I ask all my guests at the end of the episode. And it's just like something that you're really into at the moment that you wanna share with the audience. So it can be an, an actual snack if you have something on top of the water ice. It can be a book podcast, like literally anything. What's your recommendation? Rachel MillnerOkay, so I'm gonna name, this is like, just wanna acknowledge the huge privilege in this. Laura ThomasGo on. Rachel MillnerBut we live really close to New York and are able to, you know, every so often go see shows on Broadway. And I just took my son who wanted to go, I had already seen Hamilton, but he really wanted to see it. And so I took him, it was for a birthday present, like first time he's ever been to Broadway and he loved it. And now is like asking me when we can go back and see another show, which is like, I'm so ecstatic, I'm like, Oh my gosh, how did I like end up with a child who wants to go see more shows? Cuz that's just, I'm just so excited. So that's really nourishing and fulfilling for me and just something that I really enjoy. And then what else am I stacking on right now? Always on, I don't, do you know, Andrea Gibson? They are an incredible poet and,Laura ThomasI don't think I'm familiar, no. Rachel MillnerSo I highly recommend checking them out. But they, so I've been a huge fan of their work for many, many years and they've gotten, their poetry, has gotten me through some hard times and they've now started a newsletter and they like record videos and a lot of their early poetry, like many poets was, you know, talking about trauma and really hard times in their life.And a lot of their work now is about joy and love and beauty and all of that. And just taking that in has been really wonderful. And, you know, thinking about like snacks, it's like, you know, these little snippets, like they send, you know, these newsletters. And so that's the other thing that, and really they are a brilliant poet, so I highly recommend checking them out.Laura ThomasI can't wait to look at their work. And I will, if you can send me the link, I'll put it in the show notes so that everyone else can check it out as well. And yeah, I was gonna share my thing, which I was thinking of like a few different things before we start our conversation. So I'm just like, which one am I gonna pick?And I think since you just did a newsletter, I'm gonna also share a newsletter that I've really been enjoying. It's called Vittles and it is a food based kind of newsletter, but it's specifically kind of documenting, how would I, how would I even put it? Like, so Ruby Tandoh, who a lot of people probably know from Bakeoff, you know, the Great British Bakeoff? So she writes this column for Vittles called Incidental Eating. And she talks about like, just all of these like nostalgic foods, like donuts at the beach and like there's like this specific kind of ice cream that you get in the UK called like a Whippy Ice Cream.And so she talks about that in this newsletter. Plus they document like different, food cultures from all over the country. But it's all all kind of rooted in like working class food culture. So it's kind of like this fuck you to like, you know, food critics in the Guardian or like, you know, all this kind of like, everything that's tends to be really hyper focused on London.And yeah, I just really enjoy, you know, like the hyper local food culture that they talk about and they just, yeah, write about it in such this, in this like really, you know, wholesome way that makes you wanna go to Sheffield and eat pies. I dunno. Rachel Millner Oh, that's awesome. Laura Thomas So yeah, I really love that newsletter. So yeah, if you enjoy Ruby Tando's work, it's a lot of stuff kind of in that vein. So, yeah. Rachel, before I let you go can you just share with everyone where they can find out more about you and your work? Rachel Millner Yeah, so most of my social media time is on Instagram. My Instagram is @drrachelmillner. And then it connects to my professional Facebook, which is just Rachel Millner Psy.D. But I would say Instagram is like the main place that I am. And then my website is rachelmillnertherapy.com. Laura Thomas Thank you so much for being here and just yeah, sharing your thoughts on sort of anti diet parenting and just how kind of complicated it all is so, yeah, I really appreciate you being here. Rachel Millner Yeah, thanks for having me.Laura ThomasThank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

If we are what we eat, then we only want to eat the good stuff. We talk passion, joy, Americans' imagination of France and Ratatouille with the wonderful Ruby Tandoh. You can find Ruby on Twitter and right here on Instagram. You can find Ruby's website books here.The episode was sponsored by Athletic Greens.You Are Good is a feelings podcast about movies.You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Patreon and Apple Plus.Multitude handles our ad sales.The Music of You Are Good, Vol. 1 is here. T-shirts are here.We made a playlist inspired by this episode!You can find producer and music director Carolyn Kendrick's music here. She's also on Twitter.Carolyn Kendrick edited this episode!Fresh Lesh produces the beats for our episodes.Liz Climo designed our logo!

Lemn is tucking in the British Library Sound Archive with food writer Jonathan Nunn. Jonathan edits the food newsletter Vittles, and has written for various publications including the Guardian and Eater.    Together, they're exploring the relationship between food and language: both are passed down through generations and are closely linked to identity. But how do the ways we talk about food change over time? And what does the history of food writing tell us about how society has changed? Recordings in the episode in order of appearance: French chef Xavier Boulestin explains how to make an omelette. The recording was made in July 1932.  British Library shelfmark: 9CS0012507   Jim from Norfolk speaks about brewing beer. The recording was made between 1980-1989 by Gressenhall Rural Life Museum and Farm. The original recording is held in the Norfolk Record Office and was digitised by the Unlocking Our Sound Heritage project.  British Library shelfmark: UNRO004/84    Madhur Jaffrey, cook and writer of over 15 cookbooks, speaks to Ravinder Bhogal, food-writer and the chef-restaurateur of London's Jikoni. The online event ‘Madhur Jaffrey: A Life In Food' was recorded in May 2021 as part of the British Library Food Season.   Full conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjnR3keoDIA&t=497s  An oral history interview with a woman called Agnes Davey from Norfolk about hot cross buns. The interview was recorded in Norwich in April 1986, it is held in the Norfolk Record Office and was digitised by the Unlocking Our Sound Heritage project. British Library shelfmark: UNRO001/1  A man from Great Yarmouth describes his mother's recipe for Bloater paste, a fish paste made from smoked red herrings. The recording is part of the Norfolk Museums and Archaeology Service and it was digitised by the Unlocking Our Sound Heritage project. British Library shelfmark: UNRO005/35   Maeve and Dick discuss how to make ‘Pig Lug', a Yorkshire dish from the coastal town of Filey. It's similar to a pie or pastry containing currants. The recording is part of the Leeds Archive of Vernacular Culture and it was recorded before 1966.  British Library shelfmark: C1829/922   Historian Pen Vogler and writer Ruby Tandoh take part in an online event called ‘From Fish Knives to Fish 'n' Chips' in April 2021. The discussion was recorded by the British Library and the Chair was Babita Sharma, BBC journalist and author of The Corner Shop.  Full conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytHgPsjTy0  An interview with Tara Din about being the first Asian woman to run a takeaway shop in Tameside. The original recording was stored in the Manchester Central Library and it was digitised as part of the Tameside Oral History Project ‘Here To Stay'. The recording was made in December 2005 in the interviewee's home.  British Library shelfmark: UAP015/120  Wing Yip, a Chinese entrepreneur who travelled to England from Hong Kong in the 1950s, describes some of Britain's first Chinese restaurants. This recording was made in 2001 for the National Life Stories project 'Food: From Source to Salespoint' and the interviewer was Polly Russell. British Library shelfmark: C821/62   Cookbook writer Claudia Roden speaks to Polly Russell as part of the 2001 National Life Stories project 'Food: From Source to Salespoint.'  British Library shelfmark: C821/47

Vallery Lomas is a former Washington, DC, lawyer, a current New York City food writer and restaurant chronicler, and the author of a wonderful new cookbook, Life Is What You Bake It. Vallery also competed on—and won— season 3 of The Great American Baking Show. In this interview, we talk a little bit about her season of the show, which unfortunately never aired because of many allegations made against one of the judges. We also tackle some of the baking world's biggest questions—we're talking cookie vs. brownie and mint vs. white chocolate.Also on the show, cohosts Anna Hezel and Matt Rodbard talk about one of the greatest culinary achievements in the history of food (at least to one of the hosts): ranch dressing. They discuss what defines ranch, the beauty of ranch on pizza, and how ranch may need a little PR. Well, here is some PR!Additional reading:Vallery Lomas and Ruby Tandoh on New Cookbooks and Old Food Media [TASTE]Leah Chase Expanded Horizons for Black Women in Food [TASTE]Ranch Isn't a Dressing. It's a Lifestyle. [TASTE] Buy the book: Life Is What You Bake It

Home cooking is often joyously messy, unglamorous, and improvisational — so how can a cookbook assist with that?

Plus Colin Bisset on the monocle.

Brilliant young food writer Ruby Tandoh is the guest for this week's episode. Ruby grew up in Essex as part of a big family, eating simple, hearty food and poring over cookbooks in her spare time, before arriving on our TV screens in 2013 when she reached the final of The Great British Bake Off aged only 21. Since then, she has carved out a place as a unique and utterly refreshing voice in the world of food: frank and fearless, her writing punctures pretension, calls out snobbery and questions convention. In this interview, Ruby explains to Yasmin and Alison why she tries always to focus on the pleasure and joy associated with food – rather than guilt or judgement, rules or routines – and how she has striven to make her latest book, Cook As You Are, as inclusive and accessible as possible.Cook As You Are in out now. You can follow Ruby on Instagram @ruby.tandoh and Twitter @rubytandoh. To find out more about the show, go to waitrose.com/podcast.Host: Yasmin KhanCo-host: Alison OakerveeProducer: Sera BerksoyExecutive Producer: Nikki DuffyEditor: Nathan Copelin See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This is such a riot of an episode with glorious writer, poet and director Molly Naylor. Her new graphic novel about an astronaut is just out now so we had a giggle eating some space food! Official astronaut's ‘ice cream sandwiches'. Well. The cat liked them. Everything written below in CAPITALS is a link to the relevant webpage. Honourable Mentions/ LinksGet over to her INSTAGRAM and give her a follow now and then get your mits on her beautiful graphic novel LIGHTS, PLANETS, PEOPLEGo to PATREON to see what I swap your money for ace podcast related stuff like totally exclusive content and guest recipes. It'll help me keep the podcast not just alive, but also thriving. Thanks so so so much if you've become a patron recently and/ or stuck with me since the beginning of this. Also - if you'd wanted to donate something as a one-off you can DO THAT HERE on the Acast Supporter page thing. Other maybe interesting things we mentioned this week were….We ate ASTRONAUT ICE-CREAM SANDWICHESBut the real thing would've been a BEN & JERRY'S COOKIE DOUGH WICHWe big up her beau, the majestic musician GRACE PETRIE and also the very talented PADDY GERVERSHere's the article about the sandwich spaceman JOHN YOUNGI mention former podcast guests RUBY TANDOH and the CARB PARTY SPECIALThese are MARKS & SPENCERS MINI WHIPSLoveliest theatre designer TOM CLUTTERBUCKThis is what I meant by HOT WHEELSAnd last but not least lets all go for din dins at Leicester's mighty KAYALSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/hoovering. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Season 4 of Life on a Plate is about to launch with a brand new host: writer, broadcaster and cookery book author Yasmin Khan. Listen to this trailer to find out more about Yasmin and what she's looking forward to in this new season, featuring Yotam Ottolenghi, Ruby Tandoh, Chris Packham and many more... To find out more about the show, go to waitrose.com/podcast.Host: Yasmin KhanCo-host: Alison OakerveeProducer: Sera BerksoyExecutive Producer: Nikki DuffyEditor: Nathan CopelinA John Brown production for Waitrose & Partners See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

[TW: eating disorders] Oh but how I *love* today's guest. Ruby Tandoh is the former Great British Bake Off contestant who went on to write cookery books, a manifesto for eating what you want (Eat Up), a column for the Guardian and pieces for the New Yorker, among other prestigious publications. Her new book, published next month, is called Cook As You Are and contains 100 original recipes accessible to real home cooks, no matter their age, budget, ability or background. She joins me to talk about her failures at university (dropping out of four different degree courses and counting), her failures at cooking (no, really) and her failure to 'rise above things'. Along the way, we chat about short attention spans, spontaneity, calling people out on hypocrisy, regrets and why she keeps comparing men she doesn't like to types of ham on Twitter. -- Cook As You Are: Recipes for Real Life, Hungry Cooks and Messy Kitchens is out on 7th Oct and available to preorder here. -- My new novel, Magpie, is out now. You can order it here. --- How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email howtofailpod@gmail.com --- Social Media: Ruby Tandoh @ruby.tandoh Elizabeth Day @elizabday How To Fail @howtofailpod         

Humans have always been delighted by sweetness. In this three part series Lainy Malkani explores how sugar forged the modern world, from its role in the slave trade and the European colonisation of the Americas, to the consequences of our dependency on it today. For some countries, their past is built on it; for others, their futures depend on it. Across Britain, the USA and Thailand, Lainy digs into the past, present and future of sugar. Beginning in London, Lainy samples sweet treats in Brick Lane with the food writer Ruby Tandoh, examines sugar cane in the tropical Palm House at Kew Gardens with botanist Dr Maria Vorontsova, and traces sugar's journey from luxury to necessity centuries ago with the historian James Walvin. She visits the West India Docks on the River Thames where sugar - harvested by slaves in the Caribbean – arrived for refining in the early 1800s, and considers how sugar has shaped the city today. (Photo: Spoonful of sugar added to coffee)

Aspirational kitchens are an integral part of our food media, but where did they come from? And what does it mean for those who can never attain a beautiful, cookbook-worthy kitchen? Design historian Professor Deborah Sugg Ryan explores what came before the fitted kitchen, and how the room itself has shape-shifted drastically over the 20th century. And food writer and author Ruby Tandoh considers the aspirational kitchen in food writing. Episode 1 of Kitchens, a podcast series by Lecker about the most important room in the home. You can find a full transcript for this episode on the Lecker website. Lecker is written and produced by Lucy Dearlove. Thanks to the contributors on this episode, Professor Deborah Sugg Ryan and Ruby Tandoh. There's also a print zine featuring original essays and illustrations about kitchens released alongside this audio series. Buy a copy now at leckerpodcast.com Original theme music was composed for the series by Jeremy Warmsley, with additional music also by Jeremy, and by Blue Dot Sessions Research and production assistance from Nadia Mehdi. Additional guest research by Sarah Woolley. Cover collage by Stephanie Hartman If you've enjoyed what you heard on this episode, or generally on Lecker,  please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening, and telling a friend about it! And if you've really enjoyed listening to this episode, or are a big fan of the podcast in general already, please consider becoming a patron of the podcast at patreon.com/leckerpodcast

Wall-mounted cabinets, continuous work surfaces, oven, hob, sink, fridge. Maybe a table, often not. Could this be describing your kitchen? The fitted kitchen is ubiquitous in British homes. But we all have different lives, tastes, needs; we cook different foods. How did we all end up with the same kitchen? Rooted in the memories and personal stories embedded in people's kitchens, Kitchens is a six part podcast series combining the history of design and food to understand the current context of how and where we cook. Lucy Dearlove meets contemporary academicians such as design historian Professor Deborah Sugg Ryan and legendary kitchen designer Johnny Grey, along with contributors like disability campaigner Katie Pennick and food writer Ruby Tandoh to explore the past, present and potential future of the British kitchen. The series starts 16th August. Original theme music was composed for the series by Jeremy Warmsley. The collage for the series cover art was designed by Stephanie Hartman.

The Government's promised £3 billion pounds to transform bus services in England as part of its 'Bus Back Better' plan. But how much of the money is dedicated to improving accessibility? Our reporter Fern Lulham has been finding out whether services like talking buses are soon to become commonplace across the country. Meanwhile thousands of rail staff have been undergoing training to help them understand the appropriate help to offer people who are disabled. And find out what happens when Peter White attempts to follow a cake recipe set out in Bake Off star Ruby Tandoh's latest audio book.

Invite Ruby into your kitchen, and let her guide you through a mindful baking experience. In this active audio guide, Ruby Tandoh will guide listeners through four simple bakes: A simple butter cake that's sweet, rich and moreish; a nutty, tangy rye apple galette; a swirling constellation of vanilla custard buns; and miso brownies, for a shot of umami, salty goodness. With step-by-step instructions alongside musings and meditations on food and life, this is a mindful cooking experience like no other. Surrender to the experience, and immerse yourself in the process. This isn't about double-checking the fine print, triple-checking the photo, or starting again. It's about being, for just a moment, entirely in the doing. You'll be given clear instructions on what each step should look, feel and smell like, and as you focus on the sound of Ruby's voice and the delicious bake in front of you, everything else on your mind might just fade away...

In this episode Kate uses Ruby Tandoh's recipe to make choux pastry for the first time, in the pursuit of cream, jam and chocolate éclairs. Was it easier than she thought it would be?!

Jen and Jennifer discuss four diverse books that tell the stories of women finding their strength in community, family, tradition and more. They discuss: “Upright Women Wanted” by Sarah Gailey, “Erotic Stories for Punjabi Widows” by Balli Kaur Jaswal, “Eat Up: Food, Appetite and Eating What You Want” by Ruby Tandoh and “Untamed” by Glennon Doyle

She's a comedian, a writer, an actor, and mother to a sexist baby - it's the hilarious Jess Fostekew! Jess tells us what it was like to be nominated for the Edinbugh comedy award, and we pretend to be happy for her. We discuss her excellent show, Hench, and the issues it raises around gender and body image. Then it's time for some food chat. We talk about intuitive eating, and why there's nothing wrong with being an emotional eater. As always, we round off with some Scummy Mummy Confessions, this time involving outdoor urination and body hair. You can follow Jess on Twitter @jessicafostekew. Her brilliant podcast, Hoovering, is available from her website plus all the usual places.The books we mention are Just Eat It by Laura Thomas, and Eat Up by Ruby Tandoh.Photo credit: Idil Sukan**WE HAVE A SHOP!** Visit scummymummiesshop.com for our ace t-shirts, signature Wine Mugs, and Mum Island beach towels! FREE UK DELIVERY! We're on Twitter (@scummymummies), Instagram, and Facebook. Please send your confessions to scummymummiespodcast@gmail.com and visit us at ScummyMummies.com. If you like the podcast, please rate, review and subscribe! The Scummy Mummies book is OUT NOW! We hope you like it, and if you do, we'd love an Amazon review!If you've got a ticket for an upcoming show at a theatre, chances are the date has been changed - please contact the venue for more info. Thank you for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Wishing you were at Glastonbury? Get stuck into Zing Tseng's piece, instead. Ruby Tandoh reads us an excerpt of her beautiful piece on quitting, and we discuss why quitting is not just a physical act - but a state of mind. Also today: a Doll's Polls on first date turn-offs (verdict: most of them are unavoidable), a hilarious analysis by Diyora Shadijanova of what Gen Z'ers really think about millennials (verdict: old and boring), plus a great primer on white privilege by Robin DiAngelo and Channel 4's documentary, The School That Tried To End Racism. E-mail thehighlowshow@gmail.comTweet @thehighlowshowShop thehighlowshop.com - 100% profits go to charity (50% Show Racism The Red Card, 50% Women's Aid)LinksZing Tseng on festivals for Vice https://www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/4ayagj/what-i-miss-festivals-glastonburyRuby Tandoh on the art of quitting for WePresent https://wepresent.wetransfer.com/story/work-sucks-i-know-ruby-tandoh/Eat Up, by Ruby TandohWhat Gen Z'ers think about millennials, by Diyora Shadijanova https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/4ay3gw/what-gen-z-thinks-of-millennials?Why “I'm not racist” is only half the story, by Robin DiAngelo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLT54QjclA&feature=emb_title The School That Tried To End Racism, on Channel 4odOprah's SuperSoul Conversations: Ellen DeGeneres Comes Out https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ellen-degeneres-comes-out/id1264843400?i=1000475900203Desert Island Discs - Chili Bouchier https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0093nxc The Great Godden, by Meg Rosoff See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Joining gal-dem for this episode is writer and cook Ruby Tandoh, who discusses food in lockdown, high expectations and why friends are so important. Having always been hyper-productive, as a teenager Ruby would closely align self-satisfaction with personal targets. A plethora of challenging goals and Ruby’s own high expectations of herself, caused her time to be spread thinly, weighing heavily on her mental state and sense of inner well-being. Here, Ruby discusses how being less busy enabled time to get to know herself and why she wishes she found more support in others growing up.Find transcripts and show notes for all of Growing up with gal-dem here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Anthems is a collection of 31 original manifestos, stories and poems custom written and voiced by exceptional women across the UK that celebrate what is to be a woman; our beauty, our heritage, our range and our power. The series brings together women from all works and walks of life. From Booker Prize winner Bernadine Evaristo, to Vice Editor Zing Tsjeng, Syrian poet and activist Lisa Luxx, to chef Ruby Tandoh, plus 24 more powerful voices. These bite-sized podcasts are released every morning in March. The series opens with Laura Dockrill, an award-winning author, illustrator and performance poet with 13 books under her belts. This is her Anthem. Listen to Anthems here: smarturl.it/anthemspodcast

Welcome to HOOVERING, the podcast about eating. Host, Jessica Fostekew (Guilty Feminist, Motherland) has a frank conversation with an interesting person about gobbling; guzzling; nibbling; scoffing; devouring and wolfing all up… or if you will, hoovering.In this episode I’m hoovering with an actor and children’s author called Arthur McBain. He’s a lovely egg who came round mine for daal and roasted cauliflower lunch. We talked up everything from Indian toddler travels to the Trouble with Maggie Cole.Everything written below in CAPITALS is a link to the relevant webpage. Tickets to see Hoovering LIVE in 2019The next live hoovering is on 13th May we’re up in Hull at the first and best ever official NORTHERN PODCAST FESTIVALI’m also plotting to do a live show at the beautiful MACHYNLLETH FESTIVAL and I’ll let you know as soon as tickets go on sale.Honourable MentionsFollow ARTHUR MCBAIN on Instagram! His brilliant kids’ book IN THE DEAD OF THE NIGHT (which he gifted one to my kid and he LOVES) is available in Australia and Korea so far and hopefully in the UK soon too. And last but not least we’re both in a new series starting on Wednesday nights on ITV very soon called THE TROUBLE WITH MAGGIE COLE (nee Glass Houses)I would very much love to have you come and see my stand up show HENCH, which now up and off on TOUR all around the UK, IRELAND and MELBOURNE. Come! All my tickets are on sale now and they’re selling out like wildfire.Outside of that I’ll be doing new material gigs and I’m always sticking new dates on MY WEBSITE so have a check. The Hoovering Live dates go on there too. Hot and sour sauces and pickles we mentioned were TOBASCO and BRANSTONSAs per I wang on about Ruby Tandoh’s book EAT UPHERE is Australian scientist RUBEN MEERMAN doing a TED talk about how we breathe fat out as carbon dioxide. Books that get a toot are EATING... See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Welcome to HOOVERING, the podcast about eating. Host, Jessica Fostekew (Guilty Feminist, Motherland) has a frank conversation with an interesting person about gobbling; guzzling; nibbling; scoffing; devouring and wolfing all up… or if you will, hoovering.It’s the 100th ever episode! So I’ve answered your requests and got a guest a number of you have asked for - the absolutely brilliant Ruby Tandoh. Bake Off star and writer - author of the most brilliant book about eating I’ve ever read so far, Eat Up. We met in the lovely swanky Acast studio and talked about everything from rules to social media to marrow to Minstrels. Everything written below in CAPITALS is a link to the relevant webpage. Tickets to see Hoovering LIVE in 2019The next Hoovering live is in LEICESTER on 9th February as part of their excellent comedy festival! It’s an afternoon job and you can come and see my work in progress and then my Hench show afterwards on the same day. Anyway - click the big Leicester for hoovering tickets. Come come come! *Don’t forget, discount tickets available on PATREONThen on 13th May we’re up in Hull at the first and best ever official NORTHERN PODCAST FESTIVALHonourable MentionsYou have have have to read Ruby’s book EAT UP, it’s genuinely extraordinary. Beautifully written and compelling and magical and full of the most brilliant ideas. I would very much love to have you come and see my stand up show HENCH, which is at the SOHO THEATRE in London from now until 25th January (with extra shows added now on 24th & 25th Jan) and then I’m off on TOUR all around the UK, IRELAND and MELBOURNE.Outside of that I’ll be doing new material gigs and I’m always sticking new dates on MY WEBSITE so have a check. The Hoovering Live dates go on there too. We mention the incredible HEALTH AT EVERY SIZEAnd the utterly excellent ELLYN SATTERIf you’re looking for other resources to help sooth your friendship with eating in the midst of diet culture hell the back of RUBY’S BOOK has an invaluable reading list in it. We give PRET a little shout out and also the funniest podcast anyone has ever heard ever

This week I’m talking to Lily Sloane, MFT, a San Francisco-based psychotherapist with a background in treating eating disorders, disordered eating, and body image issues. She is also a composer/independent audio producer and creator of the podcast A Therapist Walks Into a Bar and the community radio show Radical Advice on BFF.fm.  Listen to Lily discuss the role the inner critic plays in disordered and the lure of dieting as a means to fixing life’s more complicated problems.   Show Highlights   What it was like to grow up in a religious environment focused on health food All the compliments that come with weight-loss assume you are doing great Working on the inner critic was helpful in healing disordered eating but wasn’t radical enough How the inner critic can take over mindful or intuitive eating Chronic dieting dovetails with capitalist ideas of always having to be fixing yourself Veiling talk about weight in talk about “health” The difference between correlation and causation How she is open with her clients about her own struggles so they know they are not alone Declining getting weighed at the doctor’s office One can work on their health without focusing on their weight Learning to accept that we go through different seasons of life which will impact how we eat and move How loving your body all the time is unrealistic The impact of being single on how she eats How she has to try to not solve life’s problems by going on a diet Popular wellness models such as “clean eating” are very puritanical French fries fried in beef drippings are delicious! Links & Resources   Lily Sloane, MFT Therapy Website Radical Advice on BFF.fm Ellyn Satter’s “What Is Normal Eating” “Eat Up” by Ruby Tandoh

Alice and Bethany indulge in new fiction release Supper Club by Lara Williams and pair with last year's non-fiction banger Eat Up by Ruby Tandoh.

Amanda and Jenn discuss Norwegian authors, multigenerational family novels, thrillers, and more in this week’s episode of Get Booked. This episode is sponsored The Guest Book by Sarah Blake and Audible. Subscribe to the podcast via RSS, Apple Podcasts, or Stitcher. Feedback Eat Up by Ruby Tandoh (rec’d by Caroline) Questions 1. Hey Get Booked! Thank you for the invaluable service you provide. I’m traveling to Norway for a few weeks this summer and I’d like to read a novel set in Norway and by a Norwegian author. Ideally it would have a strong sense of place. I’m trying not to read books by cis men, so if you could avoid them, that would be great! I like most genres, but I’m not interested in children’s or middle grade books. YA might be okay if it isn’t about teen romance. Books I’ve read and loved recently include the Broken Earth Trilogy, Trail of Lightning, Normal People, Mr. Splitfoot, Everything Under, Unmarriageable, and Made for Love. -Caroline   2. Hi Amanda and Jenn, I am very afraid of flying and have a work trip coming up (11h flight). I need a book that will keep me hooked for hours but won’t build up my anxiety. I do have a few restrictions: I recently went through a traumatic event and anything including/mentioning shootings or terrorism will trigger my anxiety. So please nothing including these topics. Of course, I would also like to avoid anything involving a plane crash

This week, Kelda and Annie discuss the firing of a chef from Thai restaurant Som Saa in London for being racist, homophobic and misogynistic. Plus we talk about the elitist nature of food media as Ruby Tandoh quits her Guardian food column. All that and more food trends in At First Bite. Tune in now!

Welcome to HOOVERING, the podcast about eating. Host, Jessica Fostekew (Guilty Feminist, Motherland) has a frank conversation with an interesting person about gobbling; guzzling; nibbling; scoffing; devouring and wolfing all up… or if you will, hoovering. This week I’m joined by comedian with a self-confessed ‘absolute-wanker-level’ love of all things food related – Hal Branson. He brings me a huge rucksack full of incredible treats which we plough through like it’s Christmas, whilst, to both of our surprise, opening our hearts right up about binging, mental health and some pretty ripe stuff about our parents. Recipes Butternut Squash, aubergine and red lentil sambhar from ‘Fresh India’ by Meera Sodha. I’ve since bought it because it’s brilliant but if you’re really strapped and want this recipe pop me an email and I’ll send you a picture of it. And here’s a link to the totally gorgeous pear, rye and cardamom cake which Hal made, via Ruby Tandoh. Prettily easy made vegan using flax eggs I reckon and maybe a sweetened and spiced cashew cheese instead of the butter? But it was delicious even without the butter – so good. Honorable Mentions There are so many of these this week! The vegan wotsits are called Hippeas and you can defo get them in Sainsbury’s and Boots. The swanky coffee he brought was from  Ouseborn. The filmore and union pistachio and chocolate log thing was totally sublime, beyond any health food treat I’d ever found. Hal raves about a restaurant in Newcastle called ‘Al Bayak‘ or ‘The Bake’ and his friend’s brewing company Northern Alchemy sounds pretty wicked too. And if you’re interest was peaked by the prospect of wine that looks like piss but hasn’t any chemicals in then look up Naked Wines. The Cake The Curry Hal's Haul See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

For the March book club episode, Caroline and Anna discuss Eat Up! — a great work of food writing that aims to get us all to change how we think about eating and pleasure — and talk to the author, Ruby Tandoh. Join in on #SRSLYbookclub.Find the show notes at srslypod.com/episodes/137 and subscribe on Apple Podcasts here. We’re also on Twitter, tumblr and Facebook as @srslypod. You can email us on srslypod@gmail.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Caroline and Anna discuss The Shape of Water, the upcoming mockumentary series Cunk on Britain and the much-recommended Australian comedy Please Like Me.Next on the SRSLY Book Club: Eat Up by Ruby Tandoh. Get your copy here. Let us know your thoughts on #SRSLYbookclub.Find the show notes at srslypod.com/episodes/136 and subscribe on Apple Podcasts here. We’re also on Twitter, tumblr and Facebook as @srslypod. You can email us on srslypod@gmail.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Cathy Erway is joined in the studio by Ruby Tandoh, author of the new book Eat Up: Food, Appetite and Eating What You Want. Eat Up is filled with sympathetic advice on everything from mental health to recipe ideas and baking tips. She dives into these issues and more, including the joy derived from Cadbury Creamsicles. Eat Your Words is powered by Simplecast

In this episode Diana joins baker, columnist and author Ruby Tandoh at her home in Sheffield. Famous for being a runner-up on The Great British Bake Off in 2013, Diana speaks to Ruby about everything from Twitter spats to eating disorders. The pair also discuss how fast food and ready meals can sometimes be the answer to your culinary woes.

Whether railing against the clean eating movement or reviewing fast food restaurants for Vice, journalist, writer and 2013 Bake Off runner up Ruby Tandoh is a refreshing new voice in food writing. In her third book Eat Up! (Serpent’s Tail) Tandoh displays her characteristic straight-talking and self-criticism in a dazzling dissection of food fads, gourmet culture and fake science. She discussed food, sex, race, misogyny and other pressing issues with fellow journalist and writer Charlie Brinkhurst-Cuff. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Caroline and Anna discuss the winners and losers at the 2018 Oscars, the BBC Three comedy This Country and the daytime detective drama Shakespeare and Hathaway.Next on the SRSLY Book Club: Eat Up by Ruby Tandoh. Get your copy here. Let us know your thoughts on #SRSLYbookclub.Find the show notes at srslypod.com/episodes/134 and subscribe on Apple Podcasts here. We’re also on Twitter, tumblr and Facebook as @srslypod. You can email us on srslypod@gmail.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This week, we have a Chops appropriate subject matter, as our Maddie Hickish, the erstwhile unheard member of the Standard Issue Team, meets columnist, author and one-time Great British Bake Off contender, Ruby Tandoh. They chatted about Ruby's new book, Eat Up!, the "clean eating" backlash, and the joy of food. Plus, remember Supermarket Sweep? Just WHAT can you buy for less than a tenner in a newsagent, these days? Our Maddie and Ruby find out... See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In this new podcast series, Dolly Alderton will be talking to guests about their most defining relationships: the passion, heartbreak, longing, familiarity and fondness that have formed who they are. Dolly's guest this week is the author and journalist Ruby Tandoh.

Following two highly successful cookbooks after she finished runner up on Great British Bake Off, Ruby Tandoh first ‘book’ book Eat Up! has just been published looking at the fun, pleasure and symbolism of food to fly in the face of fads and bad diet science. She joins Josie and Robin to chat about that plus great cookbooks, Nora Ephron, suffragettes and her mental health zine. To hear an extended version of this episode, plus get behind the scenes access, join the Shambles book club and a lot more why not support the show at patreon.com/bookshambles

Your usual mixed bag this week: Cheddar Man, Nutella fights and Lady Doritos.It's the 100 year anniversary of the Suffragettes! We deliver to you some facts and a round-up of this week's celebrations. We discuss Kylie Jenner's secret pregnancy (her daughter, Stormi Webster was born this week.) How did the world's most famous 20 year old - Kylie has over 100 million followers and is the richest of all of the Kardashian/Jenners - hide her pregnancy from the paps for an entire 10 months? Is it yet another PR ploy; or a genuine bid for privacy from a young woman long uncomfortable with her own, inherited fame?Also today, some discussion of Woody Allen - mainly via some excellent journalism, links below - and the latest Hollywood MeToo, via Uma Thurman. This one's a little different though… it's more about Quentin Tarantino than it is Harvey Weinstein. And, a first: Tarantino replies, at length. Both articles, below, are well worth reading.Plus, a bit on food snobbery, after the wonderful writer and former Bake Off contestant, Ruby Tandoh, spoke out against the “classism and ableism” inherent in slamming ready-made meals. Choice is a luxury; and ‘wellness' is a concept that the working class can ill afford (there's also a bit of personal bias from Pandora, on this subject.)ReadingThe Friendship Cure, by Kate Leaver https://www.amazon.co.uk/Friendship-Cure-Manifesto-Reconnecting-Modern/dp/0715652524Why Woody Allen should be tried in court and not by public opinion, by Hadley Freeman for The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/feb/03/actors-condemn-woody-allen-hadley-FreemanFeminism is excluding working class women, by Camilla Long for The Sunday Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/thats-right-sack-the-poor-grid-girls-only-the-rich-are-entitled-to-flaunt-their-bits-ctw9p6szwThis is why Uma Thurman is angry, by Maureen Dowd for The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/opinion/sunday/this-is-why-uma-thurman-is-angry.htmlQuentin Tarantino responds to Uma Thurman http://deadline.com/2018/02/quentin-tarantino-uma-thurman-harvey-weinstein-kill-bill-car-crash-new-york-times-1202278988/Kylie Jenner has baby and seemingly grows way up, by Harling Ross for Man Repeller https://www.manrepeller.com/2018/02/kylie-jenner-baby-girl.htmlListening & WatchingJack Whitehall on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09qb1hwLove Stories, by Dolly Alderton (Pandora's insertion, not Dolly's) https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/love-stories/id1343714594?mt=2Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri - at cinemas now See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Harriett Gilbert talks to comedian Jake Yapp, whose condensed satires include Radio 4 in 4 Minutes, and Ruby Tandoh, runner-up in The Great British Bake Off and cookery writer, about their favourite books. Jake's is Nicholas Again by René Goscinny (author of Asterix) and Jean-Jacques Sempé, translated by Anthea Bell. Ruby loves Nora Ephron's essays I Remember Nothing: and other reflections, written at the end of her life. And Harriett introduces them to On Chesil Beach by Ian McEwan, which reminds Jake for some reason of the TV series Lost... Producer Beth O'Dea.

We start the new year by exploring our complex and glorious relationship to Food with writer and Great British Bake Off finalist, Ruby Tandoh, plus, the former Young Poet Laureate for London, Selina Nwulu; and other important voices. We cover food fads, in relation to class and body image; we analyse the language and labels we hear around food, and we ask whether politicising food is all too much. We profile one of Britain's most exciting young visual artists, Larry Achiampong, who has exhibited at London's Tate Britain / Modern, Fort Worth Contemporary Arts in Texas and is currently showing at the 57th Venice Biennale. Finally, we speak to the feminist print collective, See Red Women's Workshop, founded in 1974. We sit down with two original members of this collective to hear more about their new book and the significance of their work for second-wave feminism in the UK. Stance Podcast covers arts, culture and current affairs.

The theme of this episode is food and all the ways people use it to mess with us. Well, it's about a bit more than that, but that's the gist of it. First, Soleil and Zahir chat about the Great Kimchi Incident of 2017 and the high psychological price of getting good chai in Portland. (“How do they drink chai in the Far East, Zahir?”) Then Soleil gets on the phone with food writer and British baking genius Ruby Tandoh to discuss her upcoming mental health zine, the toxicity of wellness culture, and the healing power of food writing. Produced by Juan Ramirez. Music by AF the Naysayer, Blue Dot Sessions, Alimony Hustle and The Rebirth Brass Band.

Bake Off 2013 finalist Ruby Tandoh shares her recipe for the perfect Banana Bread.

It's book review time! Julie and Yeli are sitting down today to chat about Eat Up! by Ruby Tandoh. Lots of good stuff here about eating and pleasure, the political complexities of food, and permission to eat. Enjoy!Note: our Facebook and Instagram have been hacked! Please follow us on TikTok @FoodVoiceRD to keep up-to-date with our socials.Mentioned in this episode: Join our email list! / Eat Up! by Ruby Tandoh / Dr. Steven BratmanFood peace resources: Julie Dillon RD blog / PCOS + Food Peace Free Roadmap / PCOS + Food Peace Course / Food Peace Syllabus / 6 Keys To Food Peace / My PCOS ManifestoIf you're curious about what it looks like to stop pursuing weight loss, click here for some fabulous freebies that will help guide you in your journey!Do you have a complicated relationship with food? I want to help! Send your Dear Food letter to info@juliedillonrd.com. Click here to leave me a review in iTunes and subscribe. This type of kindness helps the show continue!Find FREE food voice resources here.Thank you for supporting Find Your Food Voice!Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy