Podcasts about me yeah

Neil Leyland is a Chief Contact Center Strategist at InterVision, and he is an exceptional PMP and six Sigma black belt certified senior-level program leader and a proven problem-solver. A highly motivated achiever with a career history in sales and operations management for international multi-unit retail operations.  Possessing excellent interpersonal, presentation, written and verbal communication skills, which are used to solve problems, consult on technology projects and develop long-term collaborative relationships.  Questions · Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today. · Could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is? · When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working? · Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business? · Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has impacted you either professionally or personally. · Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. · Where can listeners find you online? · Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those? Highlights Neil's Journey Me: Neil, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.   Neil stated that you can probably tell, he's not from the US, although he's based there now. Finishing up from university, he went straight into working for enterprise, Rent a Car, did probably 20 or so years with them. Worked from the main counter at a rental office all the way through to leading an area. Then he moved countries during that time and started working more on the technology side and being far more strategic as opposed to tactical.   Then settled in St. Louis, got married, had kids, and then moved through several different companies, picking up good and bad practices along the way, and he's ended up at just coming up to 12 months now with InterVision.   About InterVision Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?   Neil shared InterVision is an AWS premier tier partner. They specialize in transforming contact centers to their flagship product, Connective CX, powered by Amazon Connect. They also integrate AI to deliver seamless omnichannel engagements. They address common pain points for call centers, like reducing call volume and the costs associated, they do this through improve engaging efficiency and also enhance customer satisfaction. They can be found at www.intervision.com.  His role within InterVision, he would say is a Contact Center Evangelist. So, he works with clients and look at problems that they face, and then help them find what is either the best operational or technological solution to best satisfy customers' needs or solve problems that the companies have been satisfying those needs, so tying together his history working in retail, as well as time and technology, and sort of blending the two, to give what people consider to be a best in class solution for them.   Understanding the Approach in AI and Machine Learning in the Contact Centre Me: So, you are in the contact center space, and your strategy is to ensure that you have a holistic approach using AI and machine learning, two very popular words that are being used very frequently in the CX space. When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?   Neil stated that he thinks it's actually good to approach it from a journey perspective, if you will. So, if you think about somebody that has a transaction, whether that be online or in person, and then they need some level of support. So, they come through to a contact center, and at that point, contact centers have really embraced AI and machine learning to help customers come through and get a better level of experience. So, whether that be at the starting point when they answer the phone, you can have chatbots either on the website or on the IVR that are able to answer and interact with customers and provide them with quick hit answers and potentially resolve problems for them quickly and efficiently. Now that's one use of AI.  People say, well, is that going to replace people?  He doesn't think it does, because it solves the simple problems AI and ML doesn't have the ability to solve.  So, when people do get to an agent or somebody on the phone, or whether a chat or send an email and get a reply, the agents are able to spend that little bit more time to solve a problem, so it elevates the customer experience even though it's not necessarily AI based.  When you think about that side though, you get AI does weave its way in there and provide agents with the ability to serve customers or call us better. So, you get crazy things like, there are AI tools out there now that will listen to the conversation, will understand the context of it, understand the ask and serve up knowledge or information to the agent real time, so they can better solve the problem.  So, it will literally know this customer sounds like they have a question about x, here's the most common answers to x, is this the right thing to say and serve that up to the agent. So, the agents might not have any real experience of the problem, but they've got a proven history of other people being able to solve that question, or a very similar question, quickly and efficiently, and they can copy it. And then that really helps agents appear to be more efficient, more friendly, and for everybody that's listening, and everyone's been put on hold. No one likes to be put on hold, or “I don't know the answer to that, let me transfer you”, that can go away, which is really, really profound and gives a perception of quality well and above the norm.  And then the other side of it that's kind of cool, is you can have sentiment monitoring. So, if somebody's listening to this call, the AI or ML in the background will be monitoring it, and they can flag calls to supervisors or to other people to say, “Hey, Neil's really happy with this call. Neil's unhappy with this call. We might need some help. Somebody may need to join this call because Neil's struggling with it.”  So, it basically not only gives the ability to empower people and have them answer questions well, but it gives them monitoring so that people can actually get involved and engaged and help customers that have got problems and prevent issues, if that makes sense.   Me: Yes, it absolutely does. I attended a conference, I think it was the first and second of May, hosted by a company called CX Outsourcers Mindshare. They brought together, I believe, close to 80 persons from all over the world, from all different continents, that were in the contact center space. And my role at the event was, I sat on a podcast panel with a podcaster from Brazil and one from South Africa talking about the influence of podcasting on customer experience and the impact that it will have in the contact center space.  One of the things that I found fascinating at the conference, and this was predominantly I believe in, I know in the Caribbean for sure, and definitely in Africa, and you can let me know what your feedback is based on your exposure and experience that hiring, in terms of recruitment was a big issue that they were facing in the contact centers and trying to integrate AI and more importantly, as it relates to recruitment, ensuring that as they go forward and AI is more integrated into the whole process of solving customers problems, having AI do the more simplistic activities and tasks, and then having the agents do more complex tasks. Is that a trend that you've seen happening? Or is there anything else that you'd like to add to that conversation?    Neil shared that it definitely is. It's causing an upskilling, or an appearance of upskilling of people that answer the phone or answer the chats. Because when he started in the contact center space, companies would train an agent for 4, 6, 8 weeks, maybe even more to make sure that they have the skill set and the knowledge to be able to answer not just 80%. Neil shared that Yanique is absolutely correct that AI and machine learning is having a profound impact on the agents and upskilling, because the ability for machines to take away the simpler tasks means that agents can do things that are more interesting and rewarding for one. So, that makes the job more fun, that's an important component.   The other side is, years ago, as companies brought people on board, they'd spend weeks and weeks training them, and nowadays that's just not necessary, because most companies have invested, or are looking to invest in a single pain so all of the information is shared to them, and when that's augmented by machine learning to provide sensible text or answers or knowledge that's appropriate, agents appear to be more knowledgeable with less training, faster and that gives a great different for companies that are embracing it. It's a great differentiate. It really helps the agents feel valued, enjoy the job, and therefore more likely to be retained and that skill level is retained.  So, generally, companies that companies that retain the skill gets better over time, and it also the other piece is, he thinks it helps companies attract people, because the job is more fun and more rewarding. So, the benefits not only in the people that work there, it's about getting the better talent in the front door as well.   App, Website or Tool that Neil Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business When asked about online resources that he can't live without in his business, Neil shared that for him personally, and this is going to sound a little bit old school, he absolutely loves using YouTube, and he will go visit YouTube looking for how to build a presentation, looking for information, ways to do things, learnings, classes, he finds a great value with day to day, he's looking at YouTube and watching videos on lots and lots of topics continually, because he thinks it's a quick and easy way to learn how to do something new or refine what he's doing based on somebody else's best practices, whether that be consultants that have classes on how to do PowerPoint presentations, or even people that do public speaking regularly and share tips and trades on how they do it. So, he uses YouTube a lot, and slowly but surely, he thinks that's starting to be replaced a little bit by TikTok, because he likes 60 second bites as opposed to 20-minute videos.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Neil  When asked about books that have had an impact, Neil shared that books that he really enjoyed and got a lot out of is a book called Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don't by Jim Collins, it's an older book now, but it's been around for a good few years that definitely influenced his working life, because the ideology is all in the title. So, how can you be better, and how can you differentiate yourself or the company you work for, and make a difference, and then elevate to go from being a good company to a great company or a good employee to a great employee. So, that's one of the books that definitely influenced his career. And he really enjoyed the fact that it had case studies in there that you were able to look at, read and understand, and then it gives you that a little bit more of a practical application when there's case studies that you can look at.   What Neil is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that he's excited about, Neil shared that he's been with InterVision approximately 12 months, and in that time, they've had a tremendous amount of growth.  They are working a significant amount with Amazon, on Amazon Connect in the contact center space, and watching how that's changing the contact center space is really, really incredible. And with that, they have releases on a weekly or biweekly basis, and you see new technologies and new items come out, and it's actually an interesting challenge making sure that his team is not only at the cutting edge of technology, but what's new and modern today is, for want of a better description, a month old in a month's time.  And making sure that his team are kept current and up to date with all of these technology changes, specifically around AI and ML, that's really an interesting challenge, because the solutions of a year ago aren't solutions for today, and he finds that both interesting challenge from a business perspective, but it's also rewarding because you get the opportunity to have people do training classes and learnings to make sure that they're at the top of their skill game to be able to deliver the best in class products that they like to offer.   Where can listeners find Neil online? LinkedIn – Neil Leyland Website – www.intervision.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Neil Uses Me: Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?    When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Neil shared that it's not quite that, but there's a phrase that he often thinks about in challenges when he's working with his colleagues, or they're looking at a project and how to move forward, and it's directly related to customer service and it's, “The tolerance of poor behaviour is worse than the behaviour itself.”   Me: That's such a powerful statement.   Neil shared that he loves it because it's applicable everywhere. In your personal life, you can choose not to go to the gym, or you can go to the gym. In work, you can watch people do things and managers do things or accept things and that they shouldn't and as soon as a behaviour becomes ingrained, it's far more challenging to remove it.  Me: Yeah, agreed. Thank you so much for sharing. So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Neil, for hopping on our podcast today, sharing about InterVision, about your journey, as well as what you're doing at InterVision, the impact of AI and machine learning, the opportunity that workers have in the centers as agents to upskill their competencies and behaviours so that they can better serve customers and solve problems quicker. It was really a rewarding and engaging conversation, and I want to just extend our deepest gratitude to you. So, thank you so much.    Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Links •    Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don't by Jim Collins   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Steve Cockram is an inspirational communicator, serial entrepreneur, confidant to elite leaders around the world and co-creator of the world's premier “Leadership Toolkit”. He has co-authored The 100X Leader, 5 Voices and The 5 Gears with his business partner, Jeremie Kubicek. Their new book, The Communication Code, released in November of 2023.   Questions ·      So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today? ·      Your book, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards? ·      Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?  ·      What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction? ·  When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. How can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution. ·    Now, Steve, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your own business? ·     Now, could you share with our listeners as well, Steve, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. ·      Where can listeners find you online? ·     Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Steve, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those? Highlights Steve's Journey Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?   Steve shared what an interesting question that is, nobody ever in their right mind have done all the things he's done in the last 30 years. So, he'll give the highlights. He was a school teacher, an entrepreneur, a nightclub owner, a pastor, a coach, consultant, and been running Giant really with Jeremie for the last 11 years. So, he always say if you were to meet his friends at the age of 30, and ask who would be the least likely guru on relational intelligence? Probably, he would be in everyone's top three.  So, everything they've learned usually has come out of their own personal failure and trying to work out why human beings behave the way they do. And also, how can they help people do relationships better in every area of their life? That's really been the heart and the joy of the last few years.    About Steve's Book – The Communication Code Me: So, your new book that was mentioned in reading your bio, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?    Steve shared that they kind of say the book is for anyone who is involved in any form of human interaction relationship, i.e., everyone. They write for leaders really, but he honestly believe all the resources they created, this is probably the one that leaders apply most in their home relationships as much as they do anywhere else.  So, the premise gives you a couple of things. One is that transmission of information is not the same as effective communication. So, just because you've sent information to someone does not mean that they've understood the intent with which you've sent it or your expectations as to how you would wish them to respond. So, they use the analogy of saying, if you think of a communication code for those sort of like the enigma machine or a codebreaker, if I could send to you a communication code in advance of the transmission of information, which shared with you how I would like you to respond, we are more likely to meet each other in the middle and communicate effectively.  So, the basic premise is there are five communication codes, each come with clues. If he said to Yanique, “I'm going to send this to you, I want you to critique it, I want you to tell me why it's not going to work, you won't hurt my feelings. It goes live in two hours. If there's mistakes, I want to know, full critique invited.”   Second one is Collaboration, where basically he says, “Yanique, I've been working on something, I think it's pretty good, but I think you can bring things that will make it better.” So, full collaboration, please help make this better, whatever that is.  Clarify, if he says to you, “Yanique, you know I've got something really important to share, I don't think it's going to come out perfectly first time. Would you ask great questions, don't try and critique or collaborate too soon. Help me get out what I'm really trying to say.”   Because clarification is usually the ability to ask questions before you launch into something else.   Care is the fourth communication code, which says, this is what I got wrong many, many times where just because someone is transmitting information to him, doesn't mean they want him to fix them, solve them or be their consultant. Care means, “Steve, I am struggling right now, what I'm going to say to you probably bears no resemblance to what the real issues are. I just need to know that somebody cares enough about me to be present, to listen, not trying to solve me, not trying to fix me.”  Then the last one was celebrate, which is, he might say, “Yanique, hey, before we go on, this is really important to me, I'd love us to take a moment to celebrate something really special, not move on too quickly and go.”  So, the idea being is you'd be amazed if you add five communication codes that you send in advance of the transmission of your information, you will find that basically, relationships that you struggle with at work, with the people you lead, even the people you have at home, you will be amazed what happens when you actually give them clues as to how you want to respond.  So, there you go, that's the quickest overview he's ever given of the communication code book, so apologies if that was longer than you were hoping, but he hopes it at least wet your appetite.   Me: It did. So, just run back through the five C's for me. You said Critique, Collaboration, and what was the third one?   Steve shared, Clarify, Care and Celebrate.   So, what happens is that all of us have default communication codes that are wired into our personality. So, when he doesn't think about it, he automatically tries and collaborate but it's experiences critique. His wife, for her care is number one, and clarify is number two. So, when people present to him things that they're struggling with, unless he's intentional, he will usually try and solve their problems.   And it's amazing how often that goes wrong because he's not actually able to meet the expectations, unspoken by the way of the person on the other side of him and just for every leader, every day when you're managing people in different contexts will almost always end up with miscommunication, this is just simple. Children can learn it and understand it, they use it at home the whole time. And it's been transformative, so that's why they share it.    Understanding Your Primary Communication Code Me: Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if someone wanted to know what was their primary code, right, because you said your primary one is collaboration, but it's received as critique. And your wife's care and clarify. So, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?   Steve shared that there is, if you go to www.giantworldwide.com, there's a free assessment there. Or it might be actually www.giantos.com.  So, there's a free assessment. But it's really interesting when actually you begin to think about the transmissions of the miscommunication. So, a lot of people either think by sending an email they've communicated effectively, and the reality is, the moment you grasp as a leader that transmission is not the same as effective communication, you also begin to think, how could I use this, now he'll even use it with people who haven't learned the communication code. He'll say to them, “Hey, before I respond to you this moment, you've asked me for this. Can I just be clear, what do you hope happens here? Are you asking me just to listen and be a good friend or a good boss? Are you asking me to celebrate with you? Do you want to ask good questions, you asked me to help make it better? Or do you want me to tell you why I think it will or won't work?”  So, if you think about it, you can become intentional immediately and amazingly when people believe that you are more relationally intelligent as a leader, you'll be amazed at how much your influence grows with the teams and the people you lead every day. It's amazing what people do when they feel that they're being listened to, heard and that you're committed to trying to really hear what they're trying to say, rather than what he guesses he used to do, which was just respond with whatever he thought was most appropriate in the moment, or whatever pressure he was dealing with.   The Importance of the Five C's in Customer Experience Me: Now, a big part of communication, Steve, and I'm kind of bringing this back to customer experience, right? Typically, a customer will reach out to an organization for primarily two reasons, to make a request, it could be for an existing service that they have with your company or product, or it could be for a new service that they're seeking to attain. Or they're calling because they have a problem and they would like it resolved. So, primarily those are like the two channels that customers will reach out to you for. What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?   Steve shared that it's a really good question. His instinct in EQ is to say that clarify is probably the place to start. Because in a sense, the clarification is what are they really wanting to happen? What are they really hoping happens? And he guess asking the right questions in the beginning, for those of us who are problem solvers, we tend to launch into problem solving quickly.  And he would say that really understanding, well, is somebody just wanting a rant, does somebody just want to have their pound of flesh and get that off there and he just needs to sit there and care and not try and solve it. Or do they have a specific problem that they really hope he can help them with?  He thinks it's unlikely that celebrate is going to be the agenda, but it would be nice if they were ringing up to say how amazing they think your product is. But he would say probably the clarify is where you start and making a judgement of whether what this person really wants is just you to listen, or whether they're actually more likely inviting you beyond the initial clarification into a collaborative process, how do I help bring a resolution to the reason that you are contacting customer service?  Now, he thinks the other one, he doesn't know what it's like in your part of the world, but you'd be amazed how many people will spend an awful long time waiting to get through to a customer service line. So, he thinks sometimes the disarming connection, the saying, “I'm so sorry. I'm aware you've had to wait a long time, I would love to be able to do everything I can to help you resolve whatever the issues are.” He always think that goes a long way with him when someone at least recognizes that he's probably been on the call longer than he was hoping he would be.   Improve on the Competence of Asking the Right Questions Me: Agreed. So, I'm happy you said clarify, because the question I really wanted to ask you, but I kind of wanted to hear what you would have said based on the customer experience approach is. When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. And it has been my experience as a customer service trainer and even as a podcaster, I must say I've gotten much better at doing it over the years, but I find a lot of people who are in customer service practitioner roles struggle with this, like how can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.   Steve shared that he thinks you actually master your content and the products of which you are going to be answering people's questions. There's a competency filter which means, “Do you know how to help somebody in that process?”  And he thinks it's different again, whether you're doing it online, or telephone or whether you're maybe in a physical place, like if he goes to the Apple store, the geeks helped him, there's different things he would say depending on whether it's face to face or whether more likely it's even just over a phone because he thinks you have to remember is that communication, only 10% of communication is the words that are used, 35% is the tone with which the words are offered. And then 55% is the nonverbal communication body language.  So, you're delivering customer service and all you have his tone of voice and words, you're already having to work hard to really understand what is it this person is seeking to communicate.  So, for him, he thinks that communication part is potentially really helpful, because it's almost taking the time to clarify and ask the question to really make sure you understand what the intent and the expectation.  So, there's the two things that he's always trying to understand when someone's speaking to him, what is their intent really? And what is their expectation of this engagement? Even if he knows they probably won't tell him, or they may be unaware of even knowing what it is in the first place is the reason communication is so difficult to train.  But it's also how people have tools, it becomes really significant when people are able to begin to decode what is the intent, what is the expectation, in his world, obviously, you alluded to something called five voices, he spent about the last 20-25 years trying to work out why humans behave the way they do and understanding that different personalities react very predictably to different interactions. Now, that's probably a high level of sales skills and customer service is a degree of sales if you think about it. But actually, there's another piece that if people want to add skills, begin to listen to the words that people use, whether that's in the way that neuro linguistic programme would, programming would start to think about, do they talk about what they see, what they hear? Or are they more kinesthetic and in our language of voices, he's listening for what type of personality is presenting themselves to him in the way that they engage, in the way they communicate.  So, he would argue that in any human interaction, the person communicating, transmitting to you is giving you lots of clues.  The question is, to your point, how much time do we really spend listening and trying to understand, discern who this person is, what their intent, what are the expectations before we launch into probably what they were expecting, which is a more collaborative approach to how do we help resolve their issue, bearing in mind that the presenting issue may not be the real issue. There's so much in there, here's the thing he'll encourage to anyone who's really interested in developing their skills in this area, he's your kind of Beacon of Hope, because he's like 24 years on now into this as one of the least relation intelligent people by nature, sadly, by personality. And actually, now many would say, I think really hard about it because I've really had to learn, the things that don't come naturally to you, you often end up being a better teacher and coach, because you've actually had to wrestle and struggle with your own inability at my time to listen.  They have a tool in their toolbox called the boomerang effect, learn to be interested before trying to be interesting. It's like relational intelligence 101. And he thinks it's amazing how often people want to talk to you about them and whatever you say, it reminds them of them or where they've been, that's another area that he's not sure where the customer experience particularly, but as a communication tip, it's amazing what happens when you meet people are interested in you, more than trying telling you how interesting they are.   Me: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you said that, because one of my very favorite books, and I try to read it at least once per year is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. And he talks about that in his book and I mean that book was published from 1933. So, it's amazing that that fundamentally is still the case today, because we are true and true human beings and as you mentioned before, some traits are just predictable.   Steve agreed that they are, and he think that's the bit which human behaviour is more predictable than any of us would ever give it credit for. And he thinks that's the bit where, he doesn't know whether you've watched the film called The Matrix. The moment you begin to understand why human beings behave the way they do, it's a little bit like the green letters and numbers coming down the screen, and you begin to watch a human interaction in different dynamics, in different ways, and you suddenly began to realize, actually is it's more predictable, and therefore if it's predictable, it can be learned.  And that actually, without it being manipulative, we can actually really work on being far more relationally intelligent and that will help us in every aspect of our leadership, whether we're working with our teams, or whether we're working at home, or whether we're ourselves engaging with clients and customers. But fundamentally, he would argue now that relational intelligence is now become even more important than classic IQ. AI does so much now. I don't know how much you play with it, but in our world is ridiculous how intelligent AI is becoming. But the one thing it doesn't do well, it doesn't do the relational intelligence piece as well as human beings do.  And he's not convinced that it will ever replace it. All he knows is it's becoming, he often says that basically, the ability to establish, maintain and develop long term relationships inside and outside your organization is the primary currency of wealth and influence in the new world.   App, Website or Tool that Steve Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Steve shared that the differences in the geeks who run his business are, he tries to think what for him, he thinks 1Password as a middle aged man is the app that he loves the most he looked in before, and he has 376 logins and very secure pieces of data in one app, which basically means I doesn't have to try and have 357 passwords identical. So, 1Password is the best. He doesn't know what it is USD $3.99 a month. But actually, that makes him feel more secure and safe online, that's him personally.  The business, he thinks if you were to speak to their team at the moment, they're building an app, they use a software called Framer, but it's a way in which you can see what technology in the app will be and do and look like before you actually have to actually engage in building the coding. So, he's a massive fan of Framer, even though he's not the person who actually runs it. There's some far younger, clever UI, UX developers who do all that work. But fundamentally, he's always massively impressive with what Framer does.   What Steve is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that he's excited about, Steve stated that that's a great question. Well, he thinks he probably alluded to it in the sense that they have worked for years to try and codify tools to help leaders do a better job in the visual world we live in. What they're working on at the moment and this is the thing which he smiles as he says it. They've run a B2B business up until this point, they've licensed kind of coaches and consultants to use their stuff.  But they're building a B2C app at the moment, which will take all of the Jedi mind tricks of the last 20 years about why people behave the way they do. They'll take the best of their tools, the best of what AI is able to do, and they will create a five voices out which will come your way later this year, which basically is your personalized coach in relation to, it will know your personality and your wiring. And it will basically customize content and learning for you and allow you to access it in the way that you most love to learn.  So, if you want podcasts, ebooks, audiobooks, but the idea really of actually rather than having to read one book, and we all read the same thing. He's watching the ability to customize content in form and style that is unique to you as an individual. And he's never seen that before.  So, he thinks communication code will be the last book they write in the late industrial format of a published book. He thinks they will customize content for individuals in formats and voices even and length of time, you'll be able to have your daily version of encouragement that will come straight to you when it comes, so that's what the team is working on at the moment. He gets to see all the progress week by week and minimum viable products is going to be ready for mid-May. So, watch this space for personality driven grows customized to you.   Where Can We Find Steve Online LinkedIn – Steve Cockram Email – steve@giantworldwide.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Steve Uses When asked about quote that he tends to revert to, Steve shared that he's got plenty of those. But probably the most common one is the Theodore Roosevelt quote when he talks about, “If he's going to fail, he would rather fail while daring greatly than be counted among those cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” So, that's what he goes back to and just go, “If I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail while daring greatly, going after something big enough, that actually could make a dent and for good in the world.”   Me: Fantastic. So, we will have definitely have that quote in the show notes of this episode. So, just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Steve, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast and sharing about your book, The Communication Code, the five C's that you mentioned, how it works, the inner workings of why it's important to listen, asking the right questions, understanding that relational communication is definitely the epitome of where we're moving forward to in this world. And just how as human beings, we can utilize a lot of the cues and clues that are given to us to improve on how it is that we transmit the communication with each other. So, it was really insightful, and I just want to say thank you so much.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Links •     The 100X Leader: How to Become Someone Worth Following by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek •     The 5 Voices: How to Communicate Effectively without Everyone You Lead by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek •     The 5 Gears: How to Be Present and Productive When There is Never Enough Time by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek •     How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie •     The Communication Code by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience! 

Dave Singer is Verint's Global Vice President, Go-To-Market Strategy. Singer is responsible for driving the GTM strategy for Verint's Workforce Engagement solutions, and the Verint industry leading Open CCaaS Platform. The strategy is based on developing innovative messaging and offerings both partner and direct that drive customer centric differentiation and aligned value with both customer needs and expectations.   Singer joined Verint in 2002 and has held a variety of roles in Verint including Director of Solution Consultants, RVP of Solution Principles, and most recently RVP, Presales, focusing on Solution Consulting and Innovation. Prior to Verint, Dave was a Principal at eLoyalty and a Software Architect at IBM.   Questions We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today? What is Verint? And what does Verint do? What would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that customer engagement gap? What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and asked where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers' expectations?” What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you? Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without In your business? Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read that has had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you. Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Where can listeners find you online? Now, before we wrap our episodes, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? The quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those? Highlights Dave's Journey  Me: I know we read a little bit about your background in the bio that I just read. But we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?   Dave shared that he'll go to beginning to now, the opposite order of the quick CV Yanique read. So, as was said, he started out life as a Software Engineer and after a little while, he realized he could have more impact on more customers and more people if he moved from just building one piece of code to consulting with organization, how do you use technology to improve their customer service and improve their operations.  He did that for a while, then he moved over to Verint and he really felt that Verint had a great set of applications and tools to do exactly that. And so, moved through there, again, continue to help customers deliver better experiences, their (Verint) customers better experiences for their customers and their employees. And his move to go to market strategy a few years ago, it was really a great opportunity for him to be able to, again, step back from looking at individual brands or individual opportunities and look at more holistically, how can Verint help all brands, how can Verint help all of their customers really help deliver better customer service, better agents, and employee experiences, and without sounding too, too corny, but really, really help people.    What is Verint and What Do You Do? Me: Now, could you also tell our listeners, what is Verint? And what does Verint do?   Dave shared that Verint is the customer engagement company, and they're focused on helping brands elevate customer experience while also reducing costs and improving efficiency. So, the core problem in the market they set out to solve is something they call The Engagement Capacity Gap. So, if you think about it, customers, consumers, their expectations are going up and up and up and up all the time as there are more channels, more modalities, more ways that consumers can interact with brands, their expectations, the number of contacts go up, and their expectations go up.  One of the things he thinks is really interesting is that people are now expecting online speed of service in the real world. So an example he uses a lot is, it's different on the experience, if you go to a store, you see something you like maybe it's the colour you want is out of stock, or the price is too high. So you can scan it on your phone, and have it delivered for an online retailer before you get home.  So, that kind of intersection of the real world and the digital world drives incredible expectations increase. And the problem brands have is that they have relatively flat budgets and resources to meet these expectations, that's incredibly hard.  So, what Verint does is delivers they call “CX Automation Capabilities or Customer Experience Automation”, ways they can help the employees of brands meet these expectations without having to do exponential increases in hiring. So, what they do is they help their customers engage better with their consumers to meet their expectations in the most efficient and productive and deliver great experiences across the board.   Overarching Themes or Pain Points that Your Customers Have Challenges With  Me: Based on your experience, Dave, in the customer engagement space and the different customers that you work with, what would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that engagement gap?   Dave shared that he looks at from one pain point any two dimensions. One is, from the customer perspective, it's interesting, the common belief used to be channel switching is bad, you should deal with customers and solve their problem with a channel they first reach out on. But that's changing, customers and consumers want to change channels at their own direction, right. So, you may start with an email then flip to chat, then call in, then follow up of an email, that's fine, that's how consumers want to interact, especially since all of those channels now land on your smartphone, it's not like you're moving to a different device per channel.  And that creates a real challenge for brands to be able to manage all these channels in a completely seamless way so that customers aren't repeating themselves every time they connect. And then on the flip side, the challenge for employees is, theme probably come up a few times here is great employee experiences are necessary for great customer experiences.  If your employees are disengaged and stressed out and don't have the tools they need, then they're poor experience is going to just seem is going to translate to poor customer experiences.  So, he thinks brands really struggle with how do you manage the customer need for seamless interaction and continuity of interaction across channels, while also providing the engagement, the tools and the experiences for their employees that allow them to deliver great experiences to customers when they interact.    Things an Organization Needs to Focus on to Set Themselves Apart From the Competition and Supersede Their Customers' Expectations  Me: Now Dave, we are basically closing out 2023 and we're embarking on a new calendar year, lots of things happening across different industries throughout the globe. What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and said, “Dave, as the subject matter expert in this area, where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers' expectations?” “What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you?”   Dave shared that there's a couple of things, they're both related. He would classify 2023 as the year of experimenting with AI, Gen AI and Chat GPT, and Open AI, all that really hit the world in a big way, Novemberish of 2022.  And through this year, a lot of brands are experimenting with how do we use this to deliver better content, deliver better answers, support our customers better, but it's very much been a year of experimentation.  He thinks 2024 is the year where that has to get operationalized. Brands need to look at, “Okay, we've experimented with this for year, we've done some trials, next year is the year to make that drive value for us.” is one thing.  The second thing, he thinks this is really important. And this is core to the ethos of a Verin is think about employee and human augmentation, not replacement. So, for a long time, there's been this belief or this talk track that, “Hey, if we get the right Chatbots and the right RPA and the right tech in place, we won't need people anymore, we can automate that away.” And he doesn't believe the data shows us, that's not the case. There are things that humans are better at than machines, at a certain level of complexity and value and emotional importance, humans want to speak to humans. So, he thinks the focus of AI and automation, and we're very focused is our delivery of CX automation is really around human augmentation, because that gives the employees the power and the great experience that lets them help customers in a better way. So, 2024 is going to be the year of getting value from AI versus experimenting and pivoting from human replacement to human augmentation with CX automation.   App, Website or Tool that Dave Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business When asked about online resource that he can't live without in his business, Dave shared that there is so many, for them he'd say broadly it's access to knowledge that comes in a few different ways.  So, it's the ability to do research on the internet in general and is to get access to broad information. And he thinks right now, looking at some of the Gen AI and the rag tools that let us turn that information into knowledge to get answers faster.   So really, for him, it's all about getting to answers, so any of the any of the online tools that allows for knowledge retrieval quickly. And again, we have knowledge management solutions and wiki solutions, things like that. But to him, it's all about access to knowledge and answers quickly.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Dave When asked about books that have had a great impact, Dave shared that Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning is a great book, it's a classic that always reminds us to focus, look at things from the customer perspective, and design our solutions and our tools, our processes, from the point of view of the customer, not the point of view of what we as a company, or we as a brand want to do. That's one of being pivotal in how he thinks about things.  Another one that he thinks is great just from a business strategy book is What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith. So again, it reminds us that things change, that things change increasingly quickly. So, we always have to be evaluating our strategies and our approaches and our solutions to adapt to where we are right now and where we want to get to.  And just because a pattern worked for us last year, doesn't mean it's going to work this year, doesn't mean throw it away. But you just can't have that assumption that doing the same thing over and over again, is going to keep having the same results going forward.  So, he would just look at those two and ones he read both a while ago, but come back to all the time, the focus on customer perspective first and always evaluate are your strategies effective right now? Not were they effective last year is really important.   What Dave is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that he's really excited about, Dave stated that first he's going to share something completely unbusiness related, personal that he's excited about that he'll bring it back. So, his daughter just started college this year and he's really excited to watch that process of her learning and growing and moving from a kid in high school to a to a young woman in college and getting ready to meet the world. So, he thinks it's first aside from the fact he's just so proud of her, it's just really exciting to watch and remember what that development looks like and feels like and how to take that forward.  The other thing if anyone has seen him on video sometimes, his office, he has martial arts weapons all over his office, he's been training that for a while. He's currently training for his next rank, which is exciting for him personally. But one of the core concepts in martial arts is something called beginner's mind, which says no matter how advanced or experienced you get, you can never forget that you're always the beginner at something. There's always more to learn about the basics. And every time he looks at training for a level or a promotion, it reminds him when he comes back to work that, “Hey, I always have more to learn, right. There's always something to pick up from even things I've done 1000 times.” So again, he thinks that's a really important mindset going forward. And it's something he reinforced with his teams all the time is, just because you think you know, doesn't mean you know.  Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you couldn't be better. Just because someone does something differently in the way you do it doesn't mean it's worse, it just means it's different, it's something to learn from that. So, he thinks bringing that concept of beginner's mind back and keeping that, it keeps you humble, and keeps you open to getting better every day.   Me: Yeah, those are really good points. Awesome.   Where Can We Find Dave Online Website - www.verint.com LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verint X - @Verint Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/verint LinkedIn – David Singer   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Dave Uses  When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Dave shared that it's not so much a quote but he just believe there's always a path forward. “And just because you don't see the path in front of you right this second, doesn't mean it's not there.” So, for him, when things get tough, he just remember that just because he doesn't see the path right now, doesn't mean if he doesn't take two steps forward, he's going to break through the trees, it's going to be right there. So, holding on to that fact is how he gets through adversity or when times maybe aren't turning the way he thinks they are.   Me: So, there's always a path forward. Alright, thank you so much for sharing Dave. Well, Dave, just wanted to say thank you very much for taking time out of your very busy schedule, and hopping on our podcast and sharing a little bit about your journey, as well as what you do at Verint and the great value that Verint is bringing as it relates to customer engagement and closing that gap for the many different organizations and customers that you work with. And also some of the things that organizations should try to focus on for 2024 as we really try to utilize all of the different knowledge sources, and technology opportunities that have been presented to us in a way that really helps to exceed the customers' expectations and even give them what they need or want before they even know that they need it or want it, so really enjoyed the conversation and I just want to express our deepest gratitude to you.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Links •     Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning •     What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

The words of this spontaneous song are an outflow from a silent retreat I recently completed. The retreat's purpose was to rest and simply be, listening and letting the Lord finish His sentences. To come and linger is a theme for me this year. As a mom of sweet littles, it can be challenging for me to make space to sit and be still. But my family needs me calibrated to Love every day. It's in these moments when I wait with God that I find what is most important for the day. I receive daily bread that satisfies not only myself; it can be broken, blessed, and multiplied to feed the 5,000 I encounter throughout the day. At my retreat, I was reminded of the Bible stories where the sun stood still. I felt the Father say, “I will still the sun for you. I will make space. I am time. Just come and be.” The Lord paused the sun during Joshua's battle. Perhaps rest is even more valuable than I realized—worth fighting for. And worth the sun being stilled, whether literally or figuratively. In an earlier journal entry, I wrote a note from Jesus, the Faithful and True, “If you will wait with me, I will multiply your time. If you will wait with me, I will take care of the rest. I have carved a space in the rock for you. Come nestle here. Come sacrifice your schedule here. To-do's will bow to ‘I love you's.' Your home needs you calibrated to me every day. Say yes, and I will make a way!” So this song is a conversation. An invitation and our reply. “Will you come and linger?” Yes, I love to linger with You.// Improvised Lyrics:Come and lingercome and lingercome and linger with MeYeah, come and lingeryeah, come and lingeryeah, come and linger with MeI will still the sunI will make space for you and MeOh, just come and lingerIt's where I want to beYeah, I will still the sunI'll make space to beOh, come and lingerYeah, sit alone with MeYeah, just come and lingerYeah, come and lingerOh, come and linger with MeI will still the sunI will make space to beOh, yeah, I'll just come and lingerSit close to MeYeah, I will still the sunI'll move mountains just to beOh, yeah, just come and lingerface to face with Me”Yeah, Jesus, we come to lingerWe come and lingerwe come and linger with YouMy Bridegroom, I come and lingerI come and lingerI come and linger with YouI'll rest in Your tempoMy schedule's at Your feetMy to-do list at Your feetAnd I will come and linger‘Cause my heart desires to meetYes, so we come to lingerwe come to lingerwe come to linger with YouLord, we come and lingerwe come and lingerwe come and linger with YouI will wait here for Your voiceIf You want to speakOh, but I am so contentJust to wait here and beAnd I rest here in Your choiceI desire to hear Your voicebut in silence we can beface to face, You and meOh, we love to lingerwe love to lingerwe love to linger with YouGod says that, "I love to lingerI love to lingerI love to linger with youOh, I'll stop time for youI'll still the sun just for youOh, ‘cause we war with restOh, yeah yeahYes, I'll stop the sun for you,I'll move it back ten steps for youI'll redeem the time just for youYeah, just come and lingerYeah, cause I love to lingerI love to lingerI love to linger with you"//Recording courtesy of Dimensions Center and Kevin McCroskey—Thank you!

Peter C. Yesawich is Chairman of Hospitable Healthcare Partners, LLC - a marketing consultancy serving hospitality and the healthcare industry clients - and Vice Chairman Emeritus of MMGY Global, one of the country's leading marketing communications companies renowned for its strategic thinking, breakthrough creativity, and innovation in marketing practice.  Yesawich has contributed to the development of marketing programs for some of the industry's most popular brands, destinations and organizations including: Fairmont Hotel & Resorts, Hilton International, Disney Parks & Resorts, Universal Studios, Atlantis, The Broadmoor, Sandals Resorts, Wynn Las Vegas, Marriott Vacation Club International, the Mexico Tourism Board, and the U.S. Olympic Committee, to name a few.  He is co-author of Marketing Leadership in Hospitality and Tourism, and the new book, Hospitable Healthcare: Just What the Patient Ordered!   Questions •  Could you share a little bit about your journey? •  Have you seen any common themes as it relates to customer service delivery on the part of the service provider that you think is universal to both areas? •  Now, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business? •  Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you. •     What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. •  Where can listeners find you online? •  Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to just get you back on track. Do you have one of those?   Highlights Impact on Online Sources But on that point, one of the things that they looked at in writing the book and their survey of 1200 adults is how they use online sources to help them think about healthcare and whether it's evaluating healthcare providers, or self-diagnosis, we all joke about Dr. Google, something happens and we quickly want to do a web search, whether it's Google or WebMD, or any of a number of site specific providers, specific sites, like Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic and so forth, to get that kind of information.  But that would be his answer. By the way, that is extremely helpful, but also generally very difficult for people to interpret. So, it's essential, they should absolutely do their homework, but they should also consult with a medical professional to make sure they've interpreted it correctly. So, it's a combination of those two, but that wouldn't be his answer, really, it's Google would be the certainly the go to source. Me: It's amazing you said that, we take it for granted when you think about how we used to do research prior to Google, Encyclopaedia Britannica, go to the library, it takes you so long to kind of get information. And I always tell my daughter, and even my mom, I tell her, there's nothing that you can type into Google that I'm sure someone else in the world has not asked that same exact question. No matter how stupid you think it is, somebody in the world has asked the question and there is an answer there for you, so it really is knowledge base.  Peter shared that what's interesting about that though is, in hospitality, online people go online to look at reviews. So, you look at reviews of restaurants, or hotels or destinations or what it may be. In their companies that have really built incredible databases like TripAdvisor and Expedia and so forth. And then you think about, “Well, why doesn't that exist in healthcare?”  So, if you wanted to learn a little bit more about, let's say, a particular hospital, where you might be thinking about scheduling some kind of elective procedure, or a specific clinician, a doctor or a practice, one of the things you discover very quickly is it's very difficult to get that kind of information online about healthcare providers, and people ask why and he'll share with the listeners that kind of interesting that came out of their research.  There are two reasons for that. Number one, most of these healthcare rating sites will not publish any ratings on providers unless they have a minimum number of what they consider to be objective ratings, typically, that's 3. So, for example, if you go into health grades, or any of the doctor sites, you'll notice a lot of the physicians don't have any rating or if they do have a rating, it might be one or two ratings.  And obviously, people are generally very, very suspect about that if they don't have a broader base of patient reviews. Now, the question is, why is that? And here's the interesting part of the answer. We discovered that most of us are very reluctant to criticize medical professionals. For example, the example you just gave about the paediatrician. Now, you're quick to maybe share that story with other friends but his suspicion is you probably didn't go online and write a review. Now, maybe you did.  Me: I did not. But I don't think it's because I was reluctant to share it online, I think at the time, that would have been like 2006, I don't think it was that popular at the time.   Peter stated that for most people today, they're reluctant to do that online publicly. And we think that there's a really good psychological reason for that and that is that we are all raised correctly, by the way, to respect the amount of training and the motivation of medical professionals that even if we find that their style to be a little abrupt, and so forth, the fact of the matter is, we absolutely respect their expertise.  And the other aspect of that is, we don't have the same vocabulary. So, it's very difficult for us to interpret many times their comments, or their assessment of our medical problem. So, it's just not possible for us to rate them because we don't know, we don't know if it's good or bad advice. And as a result of that, what happens, these ratings are few and far between, anyway, to your point is we like to say, if you have an anniversary dinner in a restaurant, where the restaurant blew it, well, you may go home that night and the internet will be blazing in terms of your negative response.  But if you had a bad experience at your physician's office, you just kind of shrug your shoulders and kind of move on. But more and more to your point, people are exercising choice and say, “I'm not going back to that office, or I'm not going back to that hospital, the experience was really bad.” And generally, most insurance programs provide some options for you to use other providers.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Peter When asked about books that have an impact, Peter stated that he'll give you just one. And it's a book that he thinks resides in the same space as their book, their most recent book. It's called Compassionomics: The Revolutionary Scientific Evidence That Caring Makes a Difference by Stephen Trzeciak and was authored by two medical doctors from the University of Pittsburgh. And it's fascinating examination of an idea similar to theirs about hospitality and healthcare. And the book, it really addresses the question, critical question that most people in healthcare ask and they say, well, we believe, we get the idea that compassion is important for patients as part of the customer experience and so forth. But it doesn't make financial sense. So, that's the point of view.  He'll give the best example. Most physicians today are under tremendous time pressure to see as many patients as quickly as possible, and that's a recurring theme of dissatisfaction for people in healthcare, where they say, “Well, I only saw the doctor for 10 minutes, and half the time he or she was looking at a computer screen. They didn't look at me.”  Well, the problem is that many of these practices, literally, they have performance criteria that says, you should not spend more than 15 or 20 minutes with a patient and you need to move on because the volume needs to be at, anyway.  So, the whole idea of being compassionate, and a big part of that is just listening, and that is listening until the patient has expressed everything he or she would like to express and also making sure they understand what the clinician has concluded and is recommending, that takes time.  And it's a big issue of this demonstrating compassion. And he lives through that because as he says, 10 years in cancer care business. And you talk about the importance of compassion in medical facilities, there's nothing more challenging and potentially difficult than fighting cancer, it's the worst disease that anyone can be diagnosed with. And it happens to be the most expensive disease.  And therefore, compassion is essential in terms of getting people through the process. But anyway, that's a long answer to a great question. But he would recommend that to anybody who is interested in the healthcare customer experience because, as it turns out, they make a case, very compelling case, this is compassion, the delivery of compassion, the demonstration of that makes great financial sense for a whole bunch of reasons. And they build the case for that.  Me: I can just imagine, because as I said to you at the beginning, the average person that goes to their doctor or hospital or clinic, they're in pain. So, when I do trainings for those persons in that type of industry, I genuinely say to them that listen, if you don't genuinely care about other human beings, and you're not genuinely there to help them, you're just in the profession for the financial gain, this is just not the area for you to be in because as you mentioned, compassion is one of those key skills that you need and sadly, a lot of patients and their relatives, they don't get that. Even COVID saw ot, I heard so many cases where I guess they got immune to the fact that people were dying from COVID, you are just another dead person to them. And that person was somebody's dad, was somebody's mom, was somebody's sister, was somebody's child.   Is Healthcare a Need or a Want Service? Peter agreed and shared that it's funny, because they talk to medical professionals about their book. Some of them say, well, all this is wonderful. But healthcare is what they call a need service. And hospitality is a want service, and they stopped them and say, wait a minute, think about what you just said.  The point they make is that, yes, many people pursue healthcare out of need, they're ill, they had an accident, whatever it might be. And they come to that experience with all kinds of anxiety, and all of a sudden, they have issues related to difficulty making an appointment, checking in, the time that it takes, understanding the cost of the service, all the things he just talked about.  And the point he makes is that, yes, it is a need service for many patients who seek emergency care. But that amplifies the importance of the hospitality elements in delivering the care, because the hospitality elements help manage down some of that anxiety.  We've all sat in an emergency room way too long and the anxiety is building and something as simple and a lot of hospitals now do this, which published the wait times in the emergency rooms, they say, okay, your wait time is 32 minutes, well, at least you know that you're going to be there for half an hour, if nobody told you it was 32 minutes, you'd be sitting there 20-25 and wondering what's going on anyway, you get the idea. So, even though it is a need service, and we acknowledge that, we think that it actually underscores the importance of hospitable healthcare.   What Peter is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something he's excited about, Peter shared that it is this book, took them 2 years to write this. And he said, they did a major piece of national research. And the reaction they've gotten to this book has been terrific from not just consumers because they know consumers, they say “Well, wouldn't you like a more hospitable experience?” Everybody says, absolutely. But from healthcare practitioners, they say, “Okay, that sounds really good. Tell me how.”  So, in this book, what they've done is in their model, the fact that PAEER model for each chapter, they've identified very specific action items like how to prepare, how to anticipate, how to engage for healthcare providers, it's almost like a checklist. And it's amazing how healthcare providers react. He'll give one example and it happens to be addressing that number one deficit, which is not knowing the cost of the healthcare service before it's provided.  He was sharing this with a CEO of a large healthcare system in New York couple of weeks ago. And he said, “Okay, smart guy, well tell me how we're supposed to address that.” So, we'll try this on for size. So, when he books, he's talking about non-emergency procedures. Now, emergency procedures are unique, but non-emergency and by the way, that represents a very substantial percentage of the procedures that any hospital system would do. So, you have to schedule the surgery, whatever it might be.  So, he said, “When I confirm my appointment for that particular service or procedure, I don't know the cost, but why don't you give me a pro forma estimate of the cost of that when you confirm my appointment?” It's the same that happens in most industry. So, next week, if you take your car to a car repair service or for service, they're going to give you an estimate, you have to approve that before they do the work, you want to book a hotel room or a vacation, you're going to know the cost of that before you take the trip.  So, why wouldn't the healthcare provider send me an estimate of the expected cost of annual physical, any surgical procedure, whatever it might be. And the reason he says that is the hospital, and the healthcare provider knows the cost of the service before they confirm your appointment. Now, most patients don't know that. But they know the cost because all of those services are already contracted with these insurance companies.  So, they have a very specific dollar amount, they're going to get reimbursed for that, even though that dollar amount as you know is substantially less than what you see in the bill. But his point is that they could give you a pro forma estimate that says, “Okay, this is likely to be between $600 and $800.” And they disclaim that by saying, “We may discover when we do your examination that more tests are required, and therefore, it's going to be a little more expensive.” And they disclose that at the time the appointment is confirmed.  But the point is that that gives people, patients then a general sense of what the cost might be, allows them to make an informed decision about whether or not they want to certain to pursue treatment there or someplace else. He's sure you (Yanique) read all the stories about people that say, “Well, I looked at the cost of an MRI at hospital A, and it was $2500. And I look at an MRI at hospital B and it was $3800. How could it be different? It's the same procedure?”  Well, the idea is that their margins are different, their reimbursement rates are different with insurance companies. They know that, you don't know that, but you could actually as a provider, begin to minimize a lot of that anxiety by simply giving a pro forma estimate.  So, the CEO said, “You know what, that's kind of interesting idea.” He said, you have all that information, but you just don't provide it. So, they're going to begin to explore the possibility of doing that.  By the way, just this week, he saw Amazon health. Amazon is now getting into the primary care business and one of the things, they just released a press from two days ago, press release on this, Amazon health will give you the cost of the service at the time you book the appointment. And he thought to himself, “Wow, somebody's paying attention here.”  Me: Yeah, they saw the need, they did their work. They did their research.  Peter agreed and stated there's an example of what he's talking about.   Where Can We Find Peter Online Website: www.hospitablehealthcare.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Peter Uses  When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Peter shared that he's not sure it's a quote, but it's more of a mantra and that is, “Tomorrow will be a better day.” And that is if you get consumed by negativity, by certainly today, all the things going on in the world. It's easy to get very dark, very quickly. But you have to awaken with the belief that things will get better and generally they do. And you as an individual will have to be a major catalyst to that, you have to pursue it and you have to be relentless. But yeah, if you ever lose hope in that then you're probably headed to a very dark place. But that would be tomorrow's always going to be a better day. Me: Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing. Now, Peter, we want to just extend our heartfelt gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule to share about your book, all the research that you did, giving us some real-life, practical examples that our listeners can take back. I think this book that you did is of great value, as you mentioned, not just to patients, but also to persons who are in the healthcare industry, who are service providers, there's clearly a lot of opportunities from a hospitable perspective that healthcare providers could be doing that they're not doing. And I really hope that this book gets to more people, and that they will look on it, not like the person mentioned, it's a need and not a want, but look on it that at the end of the day, in everything we're doing, there's always an opportunity to create that experience that people would want to come back to you, even if it's a need, even if you don't necessarily want to go back and see your GP or your ophthalmologist or your dermatologist, you want to be cured. But at the end of the day, when you walked away from that experience, you will be motivated to want to go back if something should happen to you and not feel demotivated not to go back, because the experience was not good. So, I do think that what you shared with us here today will be of great value, encourage all of the work that you're doing and thank you, thank you so much again.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Links •     Hospitable Healthcare: Just What the Patient Ordered! By Peter Yesawich Ph. D and Stowe Shoemaker Ph.D •     Compassionomics: The Revolutionary Scientific Evidence That Caaring Makes a Difference by Stephen Trzeciak   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience  Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Josefine Campbell is a founder of Campbell Company, a top leadership consulting firm for multinational companies. Campbell inspires and coaches leaders, teams, and talents in large organisations such as McDonald's, Deloitte, Maersk, Novo Nordisk, and Carlsberg Group. Her approach combines the practical and the pragmatic. A four-time jiu-jitsu champion, she is particularly interested in developing personal leadership in difficult circumstances, such as is often the case in modern work life.   Questions •  Now Josefine, even though we read a short description about our guests, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today? •  A big part of what you do focuses on the power barometer, right. So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about that, and how it is that you are able to implement? What is the power barometer? •  Could you share with us maybe two or three approaches, tactics, tools that you can use to manage energy in work and life? •  Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? •  Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read recently? Or even maybe a book that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a very big impact on you? •  Now, can you also share with us Josefine, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. •  Where can listeners find you online? •  Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or demotivated, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?   Highlights  Josefine's Journey  Josefine shared that when she was a teenager, she was quadruple national champions in jiu-jitsu, it's Japanese martial arts. And for the last many years, she's been coaching and developing executives, individually and in groups. And at some point in her practice, she has a background in business practice, she's ran businesses herself, she's been in business for plus 25 years, she's also been teaching business school.  And at some point, quite early on actually, in her endeavour of supporting the executives that she was helping the best possible way, she realized that some of the techniques and practices that she brought with her from the jiu-jitsu practice actually had a huge effect when working with executives in modern work life, because being an executive is quite demanding, especially in modern work life, it takes a lot of energy, it requires for you to stay mentally clear under difficult circumstances, it's quite normal to be under a lot of pressure, just like as when you're in a battle, it's the same thing that happens to people when they feel threatened in a battle, and when they feel threatened at work. The circumstances might look different, but what happens inside people can be quite similar. And have you watched Karate Kid?  Me: I have, yes.  So, you remember the Mr. Miyagi? Wax on, wax off. So, he trains Karate Kid and how to be mentally agile, how to stay ready in a battle, right? So, one thing is he trains the techniques, but he also trains how he is with himself, that's a lot of the movie, remember, that's why he has to do the wax on, the wax off. And it's the same for executives, it takes a lot of personal capacity to do the work they do. So, that's how she came across the methods that she's written about, and that she's helped executives put into practice.   What is a Barometer? Me: In reading a little bit about your story, I noticed a big part of what you do focuses on the power barometer, right. So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about that, and how it is that you are able to implement? What is the power barometer? Let's start there.   Josefine shared that the power barometer is an imaginary tool that anyone can apply personally, alone, individually and in teams at work. So, it's a way of checking in on your personal energy level. And checking in on your personal energy level is important because energy is the fuel of the brain. Your brain uses 20% of your personal energy, it's quite a lot because it's only the size of 3% to 4% and if you're low on energy, your brain doesn't run very well. So, if you aren't aware that, you're not capable of performing in the same way as if you have the self-awareness of where your energy is right now.  And the same thing counts for what happens in teamwork. So, one thing is that each and every one of us should take responsibility for our own personal energy, the personal energy that we bring to the table but in a meeting, everybody should take responsibility for the energy at the meeting. So, tell me, have you ever been in a meeting where someone suddenly took out all the energy of the room?    Me: Yeah, that's happened quite a few times.   And what happens to productivity in such a case? It declines? And engagements? And retention? So, performance? Does people come up with creative, innovative ideas? Do they solve difficult task when the energy is out of the room?  Not so much. So, just being aware of personal energy, start to measure it even if it's a subjective quantification, it brings awareness to energy and everybody's responsibility on the energy level. And that kind of behaviour that would bring out energy of a room suddenly becomes unwanted and for many reasons, that is good.   Tactics and Tools Can Be Used to Manage Energy in Work and Life Me: So, it's about balancing, it's about energy, could you share with us maybe two or three approaches, tactics, tools that you can use to manage energy in work and life? Because we all have our personal life, but we also have our professional life and how do we balance having energy in both so that either area is not getting diminishing returns?   Josefine stated that if she may, because Yanique says personal and professional life, actually a point, a very important takeaway from her book is that business is personal. So, there's a difference between private and professional life, so, that's isn't opposition, there's things that happens in your weekend, within your family that's private, but and what happens at work, what do you have to do at work, it's professional, but all of it is personal because it's you as a person who goes to work. It's you as a person who is leading, collaborating, communicating, it's you and I, as people who are talking right now on this podcast, and we cannot take the personal aspect out of the equation.  So, you cannot just put away anything but personal. And that's a key point also, in you addressing the question like what can you do to keep a high personal energy level? And, first of all, and the most important thing is to be aware, to be aware of your own personal energy level. It starts noticing when your energy is high, when it is low, most people would start to care more about it and putting more attention into raising the energy, you will also have more insights about what drains you and try to do less of that, things that gives you energy and it could be work tasks, specific work task you discover, “Oh, I get energy from this type of tasks or this type of meetings, or working with these people, but they also drain me.”  And of course, at the workplace, you cannot always decide who you are meeting with and who you're not. But those relationships which are draining, can you do something about it? This is something you can bring to the table to improve their collaboration. She knows plenty of good examples on how people have addressed bad working relationships and taking them to another level where they can do great work together. There are also situations where you have to avoid, certain collaborations, or certain tasks.  If you're in a team, understand what type of task drains and gives different team members energy. Work division might going to seem more obvious. And then there are the physical aspects, such as getting enough sleep, having a few breaks once in a while, actually just even micro breaks, a few minutes of rest. And rest is not looking at your phone, or just answering email, rest is maybe closing your eyes or leaning backwards on your chair and letting go for a minute. Just these little micro breaks, they can have a huge impact on your energy level.  We're not designed to be productive all the time. The organism, the biological human organism is designed to perform in circles, in waves, the energy, our natural energy will move upwards and downwards in iterations. So, it would be normal that you have some downtime once in a while, at least, but normal, natural, that's the difference, the normal is that people don't have any downtime.   App, Website or Tool that Josefine Absolutely Can't Live Without in Her Business When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Josefine shared that she will be reluctant to say, if you go on her website, www.josefinecampbell.com, there's a section with freebies, and go there and grab whatever you think can make a difference for you. There are a couple of tools there and you can try them out, you can write me if you have any questions. And that's plug and play, go check it out, there's no software there.  Josefine shared that Microsoft Teams because all her clients use, most of her clients uses Microsoft Teams. Very often that's where they meet and engage.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Josefine When asked about books that have had an impact, Josefine stated that that's a wonderful question. So, what to choose from? There're so many wonderful books. She really, really loves books. Well, Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change, it's an old classic. And she thinks it was the first book on personal leadership that got really big. And it's from the 90s. So, she was pretty young back then. But she got really fascinated with the book and the content of the book, she also started her first business when she was really young. She was 21 when she started her first business.  So, she needed a lot of help, she needed guidance on how to manage herself, and she felt so much wisdom in that book. And she actually thinks it's still valid, it's old, but it still works. So, she often recommends that book, she still does.   And then she thinks Brené Brown's Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversation. Whole Hearts, that's another great book. It's just a few years old and she thinks she took leadership books in another direction, writing a book that is very personal and that has some really nice contributions to how leadership development is being perceived today. She really thinks she made a huge difference. Thank you, Brené Brown.   What Josefine is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that she's really excited about, Josefine shared that there's so much. So, obviously, there's the book which is just coming out now and she's excited about sharing that with the world. And she has written the next one too and they're still working on the title and she's excited about that one too. She's written another kind of book, she's been quite creative, and she's also excited about finishing that one and putting that one out. So, her books are part of her passion. She gets up 5 o'clock in the morning sometimes to write just because she really feels like writing. She loves it.   Where Can We Find Josefine Online Website – www.josefinecampbell.com LinkedIn – Josefine Campbell    Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Josefine Uses  When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Josefine shared that she have not a quote, but an image. The myth of Sisyphus, it's an old Greek myth. It's this man who is being judged by the Gods to push a rock up a hill. And every time he's up the hill, the rock is falling down, he has to push it up again. Have you ever heard that tale? Can you imagine the picture? Me: I can imagine the picture.  So, that's that feeling of this never-ending work and that things just keeps on being tough. Just after the Second World War, there was a French philosopher Camus, who elaborated a little bit on that myth. And he pictured Sisyphus working at the stones on the mountain, as he was pushing the rock up the hill and he would see the sun sparkle in some of the stones, and it will be beautiful. And his attention and his energy, his mind, his being would direct towards the beauty of those sparkles. And that would make the rock and himself feel lighter.   And that's what she tries to do, she tries to find just that little spark, those times where it's really dark, and it's tough, and it feels like it's never going to end, though we know it's going to end, there's always light at the end of the tunnel. But sometimes it just doesn't feel like that. Then she tries to find these little sparks of light that beams in and just give a little more energy to get done whatever needs to get done.   Me: All right, perfect. Thank you so much. I guess another way to look at that is the quote, “This too shall pass.” but you've kind of transformed it into an image, which is way more impactful because then it really focuses on what can you really do to navigate that space and recognize that at the end of the day, you will overcome it, it may seem like it's going to last forever, but there is a solution somewhere down the line.   Josefine shared that, “This too shall pass.” it's a really beautiful quote. She likes that one. Another one comes to her mind, it is the quote saying, “Everything is as it's supposed to be.” Kind of give some kind of peace of mind if you don't try to fix anything, or if you don't try to struggle, if you say okay, things are as they're supposed to be, somehow, it's all going to make sense at the end of the day.   Me: It will, the puzzle will all fit. Thank you so much, Josefine, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast and sharing all of these great nuggets and insights with us, a little bit about your journey, your new book that's coming out, the importance of preserving your energy and doing things that will lead to a more productive life, a more balanced life. So, I think our listeners definitely would have gained great information, great value from what you shared with us today. So, we just want to express our appreciation for you joining us on this podcast today.    Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest    Links •     The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey •     Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversation. Whole Hearts by Brené Brown   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Eric Melchor is a mediocre tennis player, Texas, expat living in Romania and Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. With over 600 5-star review and powering more than 30,000 brands, our mission is to empower the average online business with Amazon-like personalization superpowers. How?  By giving brands the power to use AI to create better headlines, product descriptions and run A/B tests to tailor the product page and shopping experience - on autopilot. Thus, saving you hundreds of manual hours while your conversions increase in the process.   Questions •  Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, we always like to hear from our guests in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today. •  You are the Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. Could you share with our listeners what is OptiMonk? And what does OptiMonk do? •  Could you share with us why you think it's important to integrate AI? Do you think it will make the process a little bit more seamless? Is it giving the customer more steps to take? What have been some of your experiences with your customers? What has their feedback been? •  What are some ways that the AI can help to personalise that experience, or the shopping experience for the customer? •  So, in terms of an online shopping experience, what are some key things that you think is critical when you're trying to design that journey for the customer. What would be, let's say three or four things that you would say to them that needs to be critically engineered into that process to ensure the customer has a great experience? •  Now, Eric, could you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business? •  Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently. •  Can you share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. •  Where can listeners find you online? •  Now, before we wrap our episodes up, could you share with us if you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason at all you get derailed. Highlights Eric's Journey  Me: So, Eric, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, we always like to hear from our guests in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today.   Eric shared that prior to moving to Romania, about 3 years ago, he held director level marketing and CX customer experience positions for publicly traded companies in Houston, Texas. And he really loved what he was doing. And he got to manage large teams and large budgets, but then when he decided to move to Romania with his family, he wanted to start in a new industry, and so he got into tech and SAAS, and complete shifts of big corporate America, moving into the start-up world where he was working with companies that had maybe around a dozen employees and he was wearing multiple hats.  So, completely different way of looking at marketing, and how you approach things from a customer experience perspective. So, he's enjoyed it, it's been a fantastic journey so far. But he's definitely a lot busier now than when he was working for the larger companies and he had bigger teams that can manage multiple things.   What is OptiMonk and What Your Company Does? Me: So, your bio says that you are the Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. Could you share with our listeners what is OptiMonk? And what does OptiMonk do?   Eric shared that OptiMonk is like an all in one conversion optimization platform. So, anything that you need. Well, just to take a step back, they have over 30,000 brands that use the platform and many of the brands use them to increase their AOV, which is their Average Order Value, because there's some pretty neat things that you can do to make that very simple. And there's other things that you can do as well, like grow your email subscriber list and redo cart abandons. But increasing your AOV is something that a lot of brands use them for.  Really excited that the past few months, they've been focused on AI and they've released a couple of features that allow sort of like a hands-off approach to doing conversion optimization. And so, they're really going that route after speaking with a lot of customers, it seems like the big hurdle to really trying to get the most out of conversion optimization is just time, time to learn how to use the platform, time to implement different campaigns. So, they're trying to automate this so that you don't really have to do much, and AI can do most of the work for you.  But OptiMonk, again, they've been around for about 8 years. They're integrated with many different CRMs, and platforms like Shopify and Klaviyo, and Active Campaign and HubSpot, among many others. And check them out, they're on G2, and you can look at their ratings and reviews. They have over 600 5-star reviews on G2 and Shopify.   The Importance of AI – Will it Make the Process More Seamless? Me: Now AI, that's a big thing that a lot of organizations are focused on now, especially with so many different options emerging, ChatGPT being probably the most recent in the last six to eight months. Could you share with us why you think it's important to integrate AI? Do you think it will make the process a little bit more seamless? Is it giving the customer more steps to take? What have been some of your experiences with your customers? What has their feedback been?   Eric stated that he thinks why they're implementing AI, first is because there's no human being that is smarter than a machine, than a computer, it's just not going to happen. He thinks even the greatest chess player in the world was beaten by the IBM supercomputer a few years ago and now pretty much any computer can beat any chess player in the world, it's just not going to happen, computers and AI are a lot smarter than then we humans.  So, we're just trying to take advantage of that and there's certain things that you can do like A/B testing, like A/B testing headlines, landing pages or the homepage or product page. And then rather than having the user, the customer come up with different headlines to test, their feature will come up with headlines that you can test automatically. And it could run different experiments automatically and automatically pick the winner once one has been statistically significant, proven to be the winner.  So, to answer your question, it's going to reduce the amount of time and the effort that is required to implement such conversion optimization campaigns. And then the second thing is that it's just a lot smarter than human beings, it's going to pick winners faster, and make those updates and changes on your website in real time faster than you could if you were doing it manually.   Ways that AI Can Help Personalize the Experience for the Customer Me: Now, personalization is also so important. I feel even as a consumer, when I do business with organizations, I want to know that I'm not just another transaction, and they see me for who I am, what my personal interests, requests or needs are, and I'm not being compared or grouped into a set of people, because we're all different. What are some ways that the AI can help to personalize that experience, or the shopping experience for the customer?   Eric shared that they haven't started using AI for that specific use case. However, one of the things that their platform allows is being able to collect zero party data in a very easy and friendly way. So, for those who don't know, zero party data is basically data that you would get directly from the visitor that comes to your website and you can usually get that in the form of asking a question.  So, here's a very simple use case, let's say you're shopping for Mother's Day, and Yanique, you go to a website, and you're looking for a gift for your mom, or maybe a godmother or maybe even a sister or something. And a simple question could appear that just says, “Hi, welcome to flowers.com. Are you shopping for yourself or for someone else?”  Very simple question, and then based on your answer, let's say you choose shopping for somebody else, then a response can be, “Fantastic, let me take you to the part of the website that's most valuable for you and show you our most popular items, giftable items this season.” So, that's a very simple way of collecting zero party data. But once you have that, that information, that data, then you can basically change the experience in real time for that visitor.  You're not really using any AI or anything, you're just basically doing different segmentation based on responses to the questions that you're answering. And that's what they recommend to a lot of their clients, a lot of clients who are able to collect more email subscribers, who are able to get a lot more repeat visitors, who are able to get a higher AOV, they're doing a lot of things, take into account collecting zero party data, in a very fun and engaging way. He likes to think of them as micro conversions.  Another example could be a pure health and wellness website. And let's say you primarily sell three products. One is weight loss, one is to increase muscle mass and another one is to help you sleep better.  Well, you can ask the person visiting, “Which of these three are you primarily interested in?” And then depending on their answer, let's say the person chose to increase muscle mass, then you could say, “Fantastic, here's our most popular blog posts that show you how to increase muscle mass. And by the way, here's our three most popular products for increasing muscle mass.”  And so, that's done in the form of zero party data once again, another example. But it's done in such a way that it keeps the person engaged for much longer, spending time on your website much longer into conversions as a result, the conversions increase because of the zero party data that's being collected and the ability to change the journey in real time for that end user.   In Terms of Online Shopping Experience, Key Things that Needs to be Critically Engineered to Ensure the Customer Has a Great Experience Me: Now what's interesting just listening to you speak just know, Eric, I was thinking about the whole journey of the customer, right? Because you're talking about how it is that they land on the page, what kind of experience do they have? What are some of the questions that you ask them in order to channel them down a particular road and that's kind of you orchestrating or engineering the journey you want them to have. So, in terms of an online shopping experience, what are some key things that you think is critical when you're trying to design that journey for the customer. If you had a client who came to you and they're looking to improve on their customer experience, improve on the journey that their customer is having through their online platforms, what would be, let's say three or four things that you would say to them that needs to be critically engineered into that process to ensure the customer has a great experience?   Eric stated that one example he would like to share is this brand called Obvi, have you ever heard of them Yanique?  Me: I have not.   Eric stated that they competed in a heavily saturated market. They a protein powder and they've been around about 3 years. But here's the interesting thing about them, when they started out, they started out with a $10,000 investment, bootstrap investment.  Three years later, they are a $3 Million Dollar brand and competing in a very saturated market among protein powders. What's so special is that when you see interviews of their CEO, Ronak Shah, he says they heavily focus on conversion optimization, particularly by the experience when somebody clicks on a Facebook Ad, that moment when they click on that ad, that's the moment that they are the most interested, and the most curious about a brand. Not two days later when they get the email in their inbox, not four days later when they get the SMS message. No, that time exactly when they click on that ad, that's when they're most curious and they want to learn more about the brand.  So, what they did was, is that all the landing pages that they created, they just created one landing page. But what was different about each landing page or experience was that the headline mimicked what was on the Facebook Ads, so if they had a Facebook ad that talked about grow healthy hair faster, then the headline on the landing page, said something like, are you losing your hair and you want to regrow it or something like that, it aligned with the ad that was clicked on.  Now, Obvi had a bunch of different value propositions, they had other ads that said something like the best tasting collagen protein, once that ad was clicked on, they went to the same landing page, but the website was able to recognize the Facebook ad because of the UTM parameters, he doesn't want to get too technical there. But because it recognized the ad, the headline on that landing page change to mimic what was the main copy on the Facebook Ad, even though it was the same landing page.  So, they were able to do this very easily without having to create duplicate landing pages, something he used to do as a marketer back in the day. And they were able to scale Facebook ads, which is really unheard of the past couple of years because of the iOS 14 upgrades and updates and things like that. But they were able to do it very efficiently and scale that way through Facebook, because they're able to mimic the headline on the landing pages with their advertising campaigns on Facebook.  So, that's one example he likes to share, something that all brands should be doing. Because when a person clicks on an ad, and they go to the page, the website, they want to make sure that what they clicked on is the thing that they're interested in and not some sort of bait and switch. Absolutely. So, he thinks that's one tactic.  Another tactic is Average Order Value, he thinks that's something that every brand should really focus on, especially if you're seeing cost per requisitions anywhere around $20 to $20. If you're seeing a high cost per acquisition, then definitely you should have an average order value somewhere of at least $70, $80 plus. And within the platform, they make it super easy to be able to increase your AOV, you can do things very easily, like add shipping thresholds. So, depending on the value that's in the shopping cart, let's say you provide free shipping for orders that are more than $75 and somebody puts something in there that equals $50, then there could be a little message that appears in a horizontal bar on the website, like on every page, and it just says something like, spend $25 more and you get free shipping. And that's a very easy tactic that works for a lot of brands and they're able to utilize that and get increased their AOV that way. So, that's a second tactic.  And then a third one he likes is around global visitors. So, the global visitors, he thinks Shopify released a study a few weeks ago, and the market was almost something outrageous. It was in a Billion Dollar market, it's going to continue to increase. And if you're a website that gets more than 20% of your visitors internationally, then you should be creating a personalized experience for those visitors.  Here's one example. If he goes to a retailer in the US by the name of Woodhouse Clothing, and he's based in Romania, and he goes to their website, there's a little message that will appear that says, “Hi, we ship to Romania, our prices include taxes, you can shop in your local currency, which is Romanian Leu. And our orders are free shipping if you spend more than like $200 Leu.” something like that. So, it's a very easy and a very fast way you given that international shopper assurance, and just kind of just made yourself more trustworthy by just letting them know, beforehand, before they even waste time looking around whether or not you shipped to them, just letting them know that hey, welcome we do ship to you and here's some of the other questions that you may be wondering around tax or the currency on our website. So, he thinks that's a pretty cool example.   App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business Eric shared that the one online tool that he uses a lot is Notion, and he's starting to use it more and more. First of all, it's free, or at least the one that he uses. And he's starting to use it as a CRM. He used to use Trello a lot as a project management tool. Are you familiar with Trello, Yanique?  Me: I am, yes. So, Eric used to be a big fan of Trello. And somebody pointed out that, “Hey, you can do everything you're doing in Notion, but it's actually more streamlined and easier to navigate.” And so, he believed him, because he does use Notion for other things, but he's just not too familiar with it. And he sent him a free template to use and he's been using it ever since. And it is more streamlined, it's just quicker, it can do everything that Trello can do but it's just faster to navigate, less clicks. You can see more things on one screen. And so, he's becoming a bigger, bigger fan of Notion, he would say.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Eric shared that one book that he read recently is called Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland. Have you ever heard of the agency called Ogilvy?  Me: I think so, yes. Eric shared that he's (Rory Sutherland) the vice Chairman of Ogilvy, really smart guy. He saw him speak live and he got his book and it's so fascinating, because the whole premise of the book is that there's a lot of answers to solutions that are unorthodox, they are a bit crazy. But we don't spend enough time trying to think of what those crazy solutions are because we've been programmed to think logically. And also, when you're in big companies, you can't show up to a meeting and like pitch this outrageous idea, because you're afraid of the repercussions and maybe being let go, right? So, you're always trying to think of what the logical solution is to problems.  But he has a number of good examples, for example, nobody was banging on the door asking for an expensive, sexy looking vacuum, but look at Dyson. There are a lot of examples like that that he gives. And it's just a really interesting book and it's helping him to think in different ways rather than trying to think of like what's the most logical solution.   What Eric is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that he's excited about, Eric shared that the one thing right now, obviously, for OptiMonk, they have the AI functionality features that are coming down the road, pretty excited about that, not just for their customers, but also future people who want to try their platform.  Personally, the other thing he's pretty excited about is on the side, he is launching a new service for companies that are based here in Europe, where they're having a tough time that are trying to reach their audience, especially if they're tech companies. And the past 3 years he's been building, you would say, an audience with the podcast that he hosts, and he interviews European start-up founders. And because of that, he's been able to grow his network among people in the start-up scene.  So, the service is basically combining sponsorship opportunities with his podcast, his newsletter, and then also in person events. And so, every now and then he likes to host in person cocktail party/networking events, and people that attend, they really enjoy them. They say that are a lot of fun, he likes to have a lot of fun with them, he has icebreakers, he likes to make sure that everybody has a great time. And so, in that in person event, the sponsor will have a chance to have a live short one to one interview with him in front of everybody there. So, it's another great way if their audience is also tech entrepreneurs, and tech start-ups, then it's a great way that they can get their brand in front of a live audience. So, that's what he's pretty excited about and he's been focused on he would say the past couple of weeks.   Where Can We Find Eric Online LinkedIn – Eric Melchor Innovators Can Laugh Podcast Me: So, I did remember reading a little bit about your podcast before when I was reading the bio, and I didn't get a chance to ask you about that. Could you share a little bit about your podcast? What it's about? Where does the podcast live? Is it available on most podcasts, if all platforms? And who are some of the insightful people you interview? Like I'm having this awesome interview with you now.  Eric shared that his podcast, it is available on all the major platforms like Spotify and Apple. He likes to think of the show as the Tonight Show, but for entrepreneurial related podcast, it's like a coffee, a casual coffee, like chat with the start-up founder, but the audience feels like they're just hanging out with the host and the guests. He tries to make just very light-hearted and witty. They share the ups and downs of the start-up founders, entrepreneurial journey, but they also like to have some laughs during the conversation. And so, he would say pretty recently, if he recorded an episode, and if he really listened to it and didn't think it was that funny, then he's just not airing it. So, that's how focused he is in trying for the show to live up to its name.   Some of the guests that have been so funny, a recent one not too long ago was Valentin Radu, it was episode 99. And that one almost had him crying because his story was just so funny. And all the crazy things he did just to hustle when he was younger and make $1. But there's a lot that anybody can learn from him. But he's just a good storyteller too, and quite funny.   Me: So, that's the Innovators Can Laugh Podcast, just want to reiterate that to our listeners. Feel free to tap into that as a free resource that Eric has been gracious like myself, to have a podcast and share all of these great insights with you as our listeners.    Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses  When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Eric shared that the one quote that he always reverts to is, “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.” by Anais Nin And whenever he's on frits about something or unsure about something, he always kind of revert to that quote. But that's his favourite quote. Have you ever heard that one before?    Me: I've never heard it, but I like it. It kind of reminds me of some of Brene Brown's quotes.   Me: Now, I just want to thank you again, Eric for taking time out of your very busy schedule. What time is it there in Romania?   Eric shared that it's 7:30 pm.  Me: Yeah, so, you're here with us at night, you could be with your family having dinner, playing cards, doing something way more fun, I'm sure and talking to me about customer experience. But we are truly grateful that you took the time out of your busy schedule to hop on this podcast and have this conversation with us. And we really learnt a lot about AI and of course your organization OptiMonk and different ways that we can look for opportunities to personalize the experience for the customers as well as engineering the customer journey in such a way that it makes it seamless and frictionless and just a better experience that at the end of it, the customer would want to do business with that organization again. So, thank you for sharing that, I'm sure listeners gained a great amount of knowledge and value from our conversation.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest    Links ·  Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland  The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!  

Robert Jordan is the CEO of InterimExecs, which matches top executives with companies around the world. Based on research with thousands of leaders and companies, he and co-founder Olivia Wagner wrote Right Leader, Right Time: Discover Your Leadership Style for a Winning Career and Company, and they've launched the FABS Leadership Assessment, a free assessment at RightLeader.com designed to help leaders and organizations perform better. Jordan also authored How They Did It: Billion Dollar Insights from the Heart of America and help plug publish Start With No, Jim Camp's bestseller on negotiation.    Questions  • Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity, especially guests that we've been interviewing for the very first time a little bit for you to share in your own words about your journey and how you got to where you are today. • Could you take some time to share with our listeners a little bit about the book Right Leader Right, Time, just some of the core things that the book talks about? • Now, do you believe that there's any examples globally, of a leader who embodies each of the four leadership styles that we would have just looked at the fixer, the artist, the builder, the strategist? • Could you give me one example for each leadership style that our listener could take away, maybe a practical activity that they could do or something that they could do to strengthen them to be a better fixer, a better artist, builder or strategist? • Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? • Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you read recently? • Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. • Could you share with our listeners where can they find you online? • Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote? It kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed?   Highlights   Robert's Journey Robert shared that in some ways, he's your classic entrepreneur. He was in graduate school, but he was not the greatest student and dropped out to start a publishing company and started the first magazine in the world that covered online services and then the internet.  And in the beginning, he made every mistake you could make in business. But eventually, of course, the internet came around, the worldwide web and then he could do no wrong and the business grew very fast to put him on to the Inc. 500 list of the fastest growing businesses in the US. So, that was his first company.  And then he kind of fell into a very weird job title. He was an interim CEO for a number of technology companies, mostly early stage and that led to forming an organization called InterimExecs and he gather they're going to get into this because at InterimExecs, they had about 7000 executives show up who wanted to be placed, they're a matchmaker around the world in organizations that need leadership, and fractional or interim executives. And so, from that, they also wrote the book just referred Right Leader, Right Time.   Me: Amazing. So, this book was published in 2022.    Robert stated yes, Right Leader, Right Time just came out.   About the Book – Right Leader, Right Time Me: Could you take some time to share with our listeners a little bit about the book Right Leader, Right Time, just some of the core things that the book talks about? Robert shared that when you've been asked something a long time, you can spot patterns, and with all these 1000s of executive showing up, they spotted a pattern which was not so good and then another pattern that was really good, and the not so good pattern was that the majority of executives were having career experiences, leadership journeys that you would describe as okay, but you wouldn't say they were remarkable. The flip side was that if you just looked at the top 2%, 3%, 4% of executives, they're having exceptional careers and leadership journeys. And in that exceptional group, they saw 4 distinct styles of leadership, leadership style referring to somebody having a system or an approach or a process. And they gave them 4 labels, Fixer, Artist, Builder and Strategist.   Me: So, Fixer, let's start with that one. Tell us a little bit about what are some of the key skills or competencies that you'd have to be considered in the fixer category.   Robert shared that Fixer is the energy, it's the person that has to run into the burning building time after time. So, they're not trying to pigeonhole any one person into one style, they think all leaders, they bring all their capabilities to bear. But fixer energy is this dominant kind of style that needs crisis. And for a fixer-oriented leader, it may take them 6 months, a year, 2 years to solve the client relationship, to fix a broken division.  When that is done, that person needs to move on to a new crisis. Does that give you a picture?   Me: It does. So, this could be applicable to any type of leader in any type of organization?   Robert shared that it could be, what they're saying is that if you have dominant energy around fixer, it is best for you and for the organizations you're with that most of the time - you need crisis, you need a hot mess. And if things are too stable, or going too well, as one of the leaders put it you'll break it just so you can go fix it.   Me: It's almost like you're self-sabotaging because that's how you perform, that's how you're at your best.   Robert stated that you need to be in those roles so if you look in the world today, as he and Yanique was talking, there's a business called FTX, headquarter's in the Bahamas and of the leading Crypto Exchanges, and it went bankrupt a few months ago, and the CEO who was appointed, who is a classic kind of fixer, because there are a million creditors and there's alleged fraud. Well, that executive prior to FTX, he was at Enron, he was correcting Enron, he wasn't the cause of the problems in Enron, but that's his wiring.   Me: So, we have Fixers, those are the ones that are good at solving problems, and they need things to be broken in order to fix it. What about our Artists?   Robert shared that artist is the energy that sees the world as a blank canvas, or a piece of clay to be molded. So, you think about right now a leader like Elon Musk, he is driven by his innovative ability. Historically, you look at someone like Thomas Edison, or Steve Jobs. This is that kind of creative drive coming out. Artist energy though, the way they put it in the book is sometimes it's at that leader's peril. And he's strongly worried with artist energy and he gets that, which is to say you can't stop thinking up ideas, that doesn't mean they're all going to come to fruition, they're all going to be great, they're all going to be operationally terrific, which is why you need a mix of styles around you.   Me: Agreed. It's almost like that book by John Maxwell, How Successful People Think and there is a thinking activity that he does in there that has a different thinking styles. So, you have big picture thinker, focused thinker, creative thinker. And in order for an organization to really function at its best, you need a blended approach in terms of people's thinking style versus just all of your team members thinking in a particular way.   Robert agreed. Absolutely right. And one of the things exceptional leaders do better is they're better at collaboration. All of us talk about it, and he thinks everyone thinks they're good at it, the problem is that if you're not really confident and directed in your own style, it's less likely that you're actually effectively collaborating with everyone else. Because the primary thing they saw in this average of leaders who were having okay career experiences, but not great. The primary flaw was attempting to be all things to all people, it never works but it is the thing that a lot of people do knowingly or unknowingly.   Me: Yeah, that is crazy. So, we looked at the Fixers, the Artists, what about the Builders?   Robert shared that everyone in organization loves to be a builder, they get that. They mean something specific here with builder, which is the energy that can take the small, the nascent product, service, team, client relationships, and take it to market domination. So, you can think of, for example, someone who creates a new technology, and it grows fast, and they have an IPO, that's builder energy. What you tend to see with builder is that when that person has achieved an IPO or has achieved market domination, in many cases, they need to move to a new company, a new division, a new product, new client relationships, because they need the challenge of taking something small and getting to market domination.   Me: All right. And then we have our Strategist. And it's funny, but would you say that most people believe that in order for you to be a great leader, you need to be an excellent strategist because business is all about the strategy and executing that strategy?   Robert shared that it's a good question. And all leaders have to be good at strategy, strategy, he would say with a small s, the leader label strategist, we could have called pilot, conductor, captain, quarterback, it's referring to the kind of energy that excels within large vast or complex organization, the kind of language that strategists leaders use, it's around loyalty, and being mentored and mentoring other people. It's about longevity, typically within one organization, it's being cross trained, it's about gratitude to an organization. And that kind of language, you're just not going to hear that from typical Fixer, Artist or Builder leaders.   Leaders Who Embodies the Four Leadership Styles – Fixer, Artist, Builder and Strategist Me: Now, do you believe that there's any examples globally, of a leader who embodies each of the four leadership styles that we would have just looked at the Fixer, the Artist, the Builder, the Strategist?   Robert stated that that's a good question. So, when we're talking about Fixer, John Ray, who's now the CEO of FTX, has a massive job to clean up FTX, it's a disaster. The founder is now facing all kinds of criminal charges and there's funds missing and that would be fixer energy. And as they said, he had been at Enron before.  An example of Artist, Elon Musk is a good example. If you think about any friend of yours, and they're highly creative on the team, they may be the renegade, they're the rebel. They're not necessarily the most popular, but they're the one that's capable of these discontinuous leaps for companies, and it's absolutely the energy that a stagnant company needs, that's the artist builder.  So, if your listeners are familiar with Sheryl Sandberg, until recently, she was the number two at Facebook now known as Meta. Sheryl Sandberg's, first 7 years at Facebook were phenomenal, she took an organization of a couple 100 employees. Facebook at the time was probably about $100 Million Dollars in revenue. Seven years later, there were 70,000 employees, it was $70 Billion Dollars in revenue, if that's not the standout example of builder leader in the modern world, he doesn't know what is. Sheryl was also a cautionary example of what were one of the points they make in Right Leader Right Time because she ended up staying at Facebook, Meta for 14 years and what happened in the second 7 years, Cambridge analytical scandal, election scandals, the pivot to VR Meta which might not have suited her as well. Taking tonnes of arrows in the back for writing a best-selling book called Lean In. And it's a little cautionary because again, builder energy tends to be focused on market domination and once market domination has been achieved, that leader really kind of needs to move to a new company, new project, new division. So, strategist leader, great example would be Fred Smith. He just retired from Federal Express, FedEx. He was there 51 years and most leaders, we think, it's not like you have to round the basis, you don't have to have tried everything. In the book, they're fond of this phrase, highest and best use. And that is something we all aspire to as leaders to arrive at a point. There's no arriving but kind of a Zen concept of coming to understand your highest and best use.  Fred Smith started FedEx as a paper he wrote while in college, that's pretty innovative, artistic. He's famous, he's been interviewed many times. When he couldn't meet payroll early on, he went to Las Vegas and gambled just to meet payroll and if that's not fixer energy, he doesn't know what is. Builder, of course, to scale an organization like that was amazing. But he really arrived at a place of being one of the best strategist leaders of the modern era.   Me: Okay. So, we have some real-life practical examples that our listeners can definitely envision or even tap into because they're a part of what we know. They've written books, we've seen their history to see what they've done so that they can really identify what the leadership styles are and what are the qualities that they embody.   Examples of Practical Activity To Strengthen Your Leadership Style Me: Now, let's say for example, you want to develop these skills or want to develop in these four areas. Could you give me one example for each leadership style that our listener could take away, maybe a practical activity that they could do or something that they could do to strengthen them to be a better Fixer, a better Artist, Builder or Strategist?   Robert stated that it's a great question and one thing you also touched on earlier, they've launched at rightleader.com, a free 3 minute assessment is called FABS Leadership Assessment for any of your listeners who want to get a little bit of input and they'll get a result after 3 minutes. And they'd also appreciate feedback to asked whether they got it right, how you're labelled. But they'll also get a free summary in terms of descriptions of each of the styles.  So, each one of the 4 is different. And it's not a generic answer. So, for example, fixer energy, it tends to be the someone in organization, they're smart, they're hardworking, and someone around them throws a problem that nobody else could solve. And that's how fixer energy tends to develop. And it is in the best interest of fixers, if they're hooked and they solve that problem that no one else could solve, the best thing they can do is to seek out the next crisis. You have to pick yourself for these things.  Artist energy, they think, and they're going to see how the research goes based on all the FABS Assessments being done, feels to them a little more like a mode that is internal to you that you cannot help. And what that energy needs within an organization is to be surrounded by people who are more operational. As a way of kind of protecting the ability to keep on doing it. Builder is an energy in a way similar to fixer, it's more linear. A fixer tends to only work on one problem, one company, one crisis at a time, or put it this way. If you have a friend and they say they're a great fixer, but they're trying to put out fires at the three companies at a time, that's not a great fixer, that's probably not going to work. The opposite is you have a friend and they're strongly artists energy, very renegade, rebellious, they need multiple canvases to paint on at the same time. It's not an accident that Elon Musk has SpaceX, Tesla and The Boring Company at the same time. He's also a cautionary example because as he and Yanique are talking, he still has Twitter and Twitter was not his classic playbook, Twitter was a broken or maybe he contributed to making it a broken organization and he's using a playbook there and there's no other fixer on the planet that gets to do what he does. It doesn't tend to work well. But builder energy, what that person needs is to put themselves into situations of maybe not unproven product services, companies technologies, but something that has not yet reached scale, has not reached domination, they need to be in the position of where they're helping the product, the people, the process, the team to grow, their putting system and process in place. And strategist, strategist just needs to be within an organization where cross training and mentorship are going to be those components. So, those are some of the things that people should be aware of, that the overriding thing that they would say is that in observing exceptional leaders, they tend to reject more of what is not for their highest and best use. They reject more of what's not for their highest and best use. And so, it's easy to say, and it's very hard to do, very hard to do. But that's the thing on your career journey is, as you're going along that you become more and more intentional. Your first job, you need the money, you need the direction, your family is looking at you and you can't refuse anything. But what happens over time, as you discover what you like, and what you don't like is you start gravitating in one place or one direction over another, you start making more and more intentional decisions. And decision comes from the Latin word, meaning to kill off. And you have to do that with options that are not right for you, as you got to kill them off. That's very hard because we live in a time of FOMO, the fear of missing out.   Me: Agreed. And, just listening to you speak and explaining that. I've definitely seen my career grow in that way as well, in terms of being more intentional about the jobs that I take, or things that I invest my time into and the ones as you mentioned that don't serve me, I tend to not get involved in, maybe 10-15 years ago, my decision would have been completely different.    Robert agreed. Exactly and hindsight is 2020, it's hard to see at the beginning of your career, it's just easier when you look back. And so, that's the thing to kind of inform where you are now and where you want to go is to look at your journey and not to judge it, just to observe it. No judgement…..just observation.   App, Website or Tool that Robert Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Robert shared that it's an obscure one but he's on the road a lot and he has to send people PDFs and so he uses a TurboPDF app.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Robert When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Robert stated that he'll share two books, one is personal bias, because he was involved with it. Yanique mentioned it, Start With No: The Negotiating Tools that the Pros Don't Want You to Know by Jim Camp. It's one of the foundational books on how to be a better negotiator. And they think is something that just stands everybody well, because the foundation of that book is understanding your own mission and purpose. And the clearer you get on that you start getting clear on how it is that you're negotiating with other people and to have a sense of mission and purpose in those negotiations. The other book is more recent, it's a book called The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life by David Brooks. And if you consider first mountain, are the things you do in career that are about money and power and status, fame, whatever. More of the earning your living, as opposed to second mountain, which is when you're going for significance. What is it that you are called to? What are you committed to? He thought that that was pretty powerful.   What Robert is Really Excited About Now! When asked about something that is going on right now that he's really excited about, Robert shared that that's a great question. He has to go back, this assessment has them really energized because they would just love to see what happens as more and more people take it. We are recording this, and it's very new, it just came out and only about 1000 people have taken it so far. So, they're putting forward a lot of ideas here and they may be wrong or right about them, they're going to see as all of the data comes back in how it plays.   Where Can We Find Robert Online Website – InterimExecs.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Robert Uses When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Robert stated that that's such a good question. “I fairly sizzle with zeal and enthusiasm as I spring forth with a mighty faith to do the things that ought to be done by me.”  Robert shared that's a recording he heard many years ago, a Minister named Jack Boland and he was quoting his mentor. I can't remember the name of his mentor. But he said that on a number of recordings, and it just hit him between the eyes.  And so, in his spare time he paints, and he actually painted a Canvas at one point with that expression, because it just energizes me.    Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Links ·  Right Leader, Right Time: Discover Your Leadership Style for a Winning Career and Company by Robert Jordan ·  How They Did It: Billion Dollar Insights from the Heart of America by Robert Jordan ·  Start with No: The Negotiating Tools that the Pros Don't Want You to Know by Jim Camp ·  The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life by David Brooks   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners  Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.” The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!   Our Next Webinar – May 16, 2023 at 10:00 am   Register Here  

Rama Sreenivasan is a co-founder and CEO at Blitzz, a live remote video support and inspection platform. Rama has led the company through its initial inception launch and subsequent growth to several million video support minutes per month. Major customers include BMW, Sealy, FedEx, and Rogers Telecommunications. Before founding Blitzz in 2017, Rama spent several years working as a Scientist and Educator. His biggest joy comes from helping others solve their problems and he is passionate about finding effective ways to disseminate knowledge. Rama has a PhD and MS in Chemical Engineering from the University of Maryland College Park. He also did his Postdoctoral research at MIT in Cambridge, Boston.   Questions We always like to give them an opportunity to share in your own words, how you got to where you are today and why you ended up on this journey that you are on? So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about Blitzz? What does Blitzz do? Is Blitzz an acronym for something and may I ask? I'm not sure if you actually have a reason for it. But like, what inspired you to name the company Blitzz? The whole method of augmented reality enabled Smart Glasses that your company is using to enable hands free support, making it even easier to fix a car stereo appliance and more. Could you share a little bit about how that works? And what the process is? And how easy has it been for customers to transition using this new method of resolution? What are some trends that you see emerging in 2023 and beyond as it relates to technology, maybe one or two that you have observed, or you see that are emerging that you'd be willing to share with our audience? Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read very recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it really has had a great impact on your life, and you just believe it would be a good value to share with our audience. Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two things that you do personally to stay motivated every day, despite any challenges or adversities that you may face? Could you also share with our audience, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people? Where can listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed.   Highlights Rama's Journey   Me: So, even though we read the bio of our guests, the formal constructed background of where our guests history is, and how they got to where they are today, we always like to give them an opportunity to share in your own words, how you got to where you are today and why you ended up on this journey that you are on?   Rama stated that that's a pretty deep question. Start with a little bit about his background, he grew up in India and Indonesia, so two countries far away from here. And always been guided by a lot of the values from his parents, his dad was an engineer. He's retired right now and back in India, and his mom was a teacher as well. So, a lot of great values growing up and the fundamental thing was always trying to care for people, to help them. And his strength in math and science naturally led him to be an engineer, just like his dad.   And he always looks for opportunities to help people out with technology. And that's been his journey so far. But one thing led to another and here he is, running a software company, although, all his education was in chemical engineering, he did my Master's, his PhD post-doc, worked for a couple of semiconductor companies. But it was during that journey that he saw the need to help people with technology, as they struggled to troubleshoot equipment.   And so, the equipment came in through his engineering, the desire to help came through his value system. And then he started looking for technologies, he stumbled across technologies and he puts all these together and that's how Blitzz was born when he met his co-founder, KR, who used to work at Google before he joined him in starting Blitzz.   What Does Blitzz Do?   Me: So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about Blitzz? What does Blitzz do? Is Blitzz an acronym for something and may I ask? I'm not sure if you actually have a reason for it. But like, what inspired you to name the company Blitzz?   Rama shared that he'll start with the name Blitzz. Blitzz with one Z actually means getting something done fast and efficiently. There's also another meaning, which refers to the Blitzkrieg during World War. But the second meaning is what they're referring to here. The reason why they went with two Z's was honestly because one Z the website was already taken, so they went with two Z, that it was also a little cooler with two Z's. So, that's what Blitzz means to get something done fast and efficiently.   And regarding what it does, so they provide a way to have an app free live video call with anyone on the planet. As most people know today, in the video calls are pretty rapid, especially the pandemic got people started on video calling, especially in not just personally but at work as well. But many people don't know that it can be done without an app download.   And there are specific reasons why you want to do it without an app download especially when you're helping out a customer who's calling in into a contact centre, as you very well know, in customer service, you get a call in from someone that you've hardly met, you probably talking for the first time, they're probably frustrated with a piece of equipment, or perhaps their internet router, right? And to get on a video call with that person by asking them to download an app only frustrates them even more. So, there's got to be an easier way and that's what Blitzz is. He hopes that explained clearly what Blitzz is.   Smart Glasses – How it Works and the Process   Me: So, what intrigued me Rama, about interviewing you was this whole method of augmented reality enabled Smart Glasses that your company is using to enable hands free support, making it even easier to fix a car stereo appliance and more. So, I am all into customer experience, as you know, because that's the podcast Navigating the Customer Experience.   But I thought this was so cool that you could literally work with a client to not physically be in the same space but be using that technology to help them get their issue resolved. Could you share a little bit about how that works? And what the process is? And how easy has it been for customers to transition using this new method of resolution?   Rama shared that let him clarify that the Smart Glass hands free use case is, it's a different use case when it comes to someone, a consumer calling a contact centre. So, the Smart Glasses doesn't apply to that. That applies to technicians out in the field who are probably climbing up a windmill or cell phone tower or need their hands free to hold them to the study as they climb a piece of equipment or hold tools in their hands to follow instructions from a remote expert. So, that's the Smart Glass site.   But with consumers calling and say, if you've got a problem with your charger, as you charge your car in your ED vehicle, and you're not able to charge it, and you call the one 1800 number in the US, for example, that's what do you typically call for customer support. Somebody at a contact centre picks up the call and today they want to help you out, the whole idea is to get you going on your way.   But today, most of them operate blind meaning that they can't see your problem. And when they operate blind, they tend to ask a bunch of questions, which is typically aggravating because you're thinking to yourself in front of the car, if only you could see this. Well, that's what Blitzz is. At that point in time, the way it works is as a contact centre agent, you would simply send them a text link, they would get it on their phone.   So, while they had the phone to the air, now they will get a link to look at the phone take it away from their ear and look at the screen, they would click on the link, immediately the back camera turns on and within a few seconds without an app download, the contact centre agent is actually looking at the charging port of the car. So, just cuts down all those extra questions and they could point to things, they can mark images up, they can communicate very clearly as if they were standing right next to the person in front of the car just through remote video.   Me: All right, amazing. And how do you find technology helping customers because a lot of organizations are using technology and I do believe that it really should be used to enhance the experience to make things frictionless or effortless for the customer. But I also believe that the human element is still very critical to the experience that the customer has, because technology can fail. And so, how do you think as we transition and we move forward because I'm sure there's more opportunities for technology to be infusioned into the experience that we have, that we blended in such a way that they complement each other rather than create further frustration and pain and discomfort for customers.   Rama shared that he couldn't have said it any better. But right on point. The blending of technology and the human empathy is very important and that's what they focus on when they take Blitzz to the contact centres. So, the ability to get the customer agent eyes on the problem brings in that technology piece. And because of being able to see the problem and connect with the consumer who's calling in a pain free, frictionless manner, like you just mentioned, make sure that they're in sync, they understand each other. And then as they see the problem, now they can solve it better and perhaps, most of the cases, what happens is they're able to solve the problem and avoid sending out a technician or avoid sending the product back to the manufacturer and saving a ton of trouble by just being able to see it and solve it within a few minutes.   Trends Emerging in 2023 as it Relates to Technology   Me: Have you seen, you're in the whole technology space, I would say trends that you see emerging in 2023 and beyond as it relates to technology, maybe one or two that you have observed, or you see that are emerging that you'd be willing to share with our audience?   Rama shared that yes, absolutely. There are lots of tools that are AI related, even in the case of video, as video's getting more rampant in businesses, not just in personal communication, technologies like Blitzz come in almost every other month and capture more data and that data is fed into machine learning. And you can use that data very effectively to make downstream processes more efficient.   For example, even during a Blitzz call, how do we empower the agent to provide the right solution to the caller? Imagine the agent is able to immediately get access to an instruction manual based on the make and model of the equipment that the agent is supporting to troubleshoot, being able to pull that resolution step or the answer to the problem and giving the agent immediate access so that they can help the customer and have them go about their day, very, very quickly, is very powerful.   So, AI, augmented reality video are all the tools that are coming out with great efficiencies, much like 10 years ago, chat came about for customer experience. So, he would like to say that video is like the new chat, because now your eyes are on the problem.   App, Website or Tool that Rama Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business   When asked about an online resource that he can't live without in his business, Rama shared that that's a good one. He's been thinking about it for a bit. He would say, for him, the biggest value is just the cloud, even if he loses his laptop today, and there are lots of tools, but all those are cloud based tools. Even if his laptop is lost, he can go get another one and just seamlessly continue working as if nothing was missing. Because all the data, be it Gmail, be it tools, collaborative tools like Slack, or be it a CRM like HubSpot for his business. All these tools are on the cloud and he could just go get another laptop and continue working.   So, he would say, connectivity to the cloud is what he would need absolutely for the business. And they're all cloud-based tools important to migrate. It's really important to migrate to the cloud for businesses who are looking to the future because of the ease of working in the cloud is just incredible.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Rama   When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Rama shared that the book that comes to him was The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment. That's more of a personal journey of being very mindfully aware of his strengths and weaknesses, it's kind of a metaphysical book, but it really made him aware of his own thinking process, and who he is as a person. And what does he want to do with his life.   There's also another book, he's actually looking for around as he speaks. It's a more recent book, it's by the author Dan Bapani and he has written a very good book on the ability to concentrate or the power of concentration. And he's really enjoyed reading that book because it again, helps him be very mindfully aware of everything he does on a daily basis and be the best he can be. Both these things have really helped him be very present and live consciously.   How Rama Stay Motivated   When asked about how he stays motivated, Rama shared that he would say that would be definitely some yoga and meditation, that really puts him centre and it makes sure that things that really keep him keep me on track, he doesn't give up on those habits.   The funny thing about great habits is they get you to a spot where you're really enjoying life and that paradoxically also makes you not pursue those habits. So, you have to keep doing what you did to get there in order to be able to stay there. For him that is yoga and meditation.   What Rama is Really Excited About Now!   When asked about something that's going on right now that he's really excited about, Rama shared that he would say being a father of two small kids, 5 and 7. And running a company, trying to scale it. He's always trying to find more balance and one of the other things he's added in his life that he's actually gotten back to because he couldn't do it when the kids were younger, was climbing. So, he loves climbing and what he's really excited about is to get back to Yosemite, which is really close by in the valley and do some multi pitch climbing, which means climbing several pitches of rock. And that is pretty, pretty adventurous and exhilarating for him.   Me: Yes, that sounds very exciting and dangerous. But I suppose it depends on your perspective.   Rama shared that it's actually surprisingly, if you do it well, a joke to people, what typically is more dangerous is driving to Yosemite, rather than climbing because it's easier to get into trouble driving a car too fast than doing something very slow, like climbing, which is actually very controlled, provided you're very mindful.   Me: Yeah, and I do imagine there's some amount of skill involved in climbing as well.   Rama agreed, yes, there is but it does take some time and definitely getting trained with a good teacher is important, but again, what he's realized is being very conscious about everything you do, being very hyper aware of what you do, really helps to be safe.   Where Can We Find Rama Online   LinkedIn – Rama Sreenivasan Website – www.blitzz.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Rama Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Rama shared that he thinks of Bill Watterson, he's the author of Calvin and Hobbes, and he tries and bring in a little bit of humour in the face of adversity, and he said it through Calvin, his quote was, “God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now, I'm so far behind that I am certain that I shall never die.”   Me: Okay. And would you like to expound on that for our audience and explain what that means?   Rama shared that he just thought it was really funny, he was kind of a self-deprecating humour. I'm here to accomplish a certain number of things. And we all get stuck in the rat race, right, trying to do so much but what when you stop back and think, right now, it's nice to laugh at yourself and say, “Hey, we're so far behind and all the list of things that I have to do that if I have to get all of them done, according to God, I should never die because I'm so far behind.”   Me: Oh, my goodness. Yes, it's quite comical. If only that were true, we all do have an expiry date, we just don't know when.   Rama agreed yes. But sometimes he feels at least his personality, he tends to take himself too seriously. So, he has to remind himself to also lighten up, let go and we're all here to help each other out and have a good time and take care of other people.   Me: Indeed. Well, thank you so much Rama for taking time out of your very busy schedule, to hop on our podcast, Navigating the Customer Experience and just share with us some of the trends that you see emerging in the technology space, why technology needs to still be fused in with the human interaction, the human experience, because at the end of the day, neither of them can function on their own and blended together that will definitely create a better experience for customers. And so, we appreciate you sharing all of the great nuggets and insights in our conversation today and so we just want to express our gratitude to you for that.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment by Eckhart Toole   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Amanda Ono has spent her career learning to maximize a company's most valuable investment - it's people. Boasting over 20 years of international experience in organizational development, HR consulting, and change management, she has implemented successful talent and leadership initiatives in six countries across four continents. You can currently find her at Resolver, a Kroll business and worldwide leader in defining risk intelligence, making her mark as both VP Customer Experience and VP People & Culture. For most of her professional life, Amanda has been on a mission to understand what makes highly effective organizations tick. As an undergraduate in psychology, she saw pioneering research on the effects of unconscious bias and racism in resume screening up close. After graduating, she honed her craft by tackling training and organizational development at talent management firms across Canada. Soon her skills were in such demand that invitations to implement leadership programmes across the globe started to roll in - first in South Africa, followed by Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and Singapore. Since joining the Resolver team in 2016, she's only expanded on her record of success. Implementing processes and strategies that have enabled Resolver to scale by over 120%, expand into four countries and acquire three companies. Amanda's efforts have led to being recognized as one of Canada's great places to work six years in a row. Despite her accolades, Amanda is determined to continue engaging, accelerating and giving her colleagues at Resolver to deliver on the company's motto: Aim big, Be Great, and Be Loved by Customers.   Questions   We've read, the formal background of who you are and where you are today. But we'd love for you to tell us the audience and myself, in your own words, a little bit about your journey and how it is that you got to where you work today. Could share with us maybe three to five things that you think is critical for leaders to embrace and practice on a daily basis in order to really have successful teams in an organization? Sometimes I find that HR in an organization, very few organizations where I've interacted with the team members of a company, and they feel so comfortable going to their Human Resource people, how could we change that, what are some ways that we could look for opportunities that HR can really play the role they're supposed to play? Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business? Could you also share with us what are some books that you have read that you believe have had the biggest impact with you? Maybe one or two you could share with us, could be that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you read recently, but it really has impacted you. Could you also share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Could you share with us one or two benefits of HR or the people arm of the business actually using it technology to enhance the experience that employees have in the organization? How can technology help that? Where can they find you online? Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, and the quote kind of helps to get you back on track and kind of refocus you on what you're trying to achieve?   Highlights Amanda's Journey Amanda stated that as you can hear, she's had a nonlinear career path and she truly thinks that a lot of the opportunities she's had both to lead teams and grow processes have been a result of that. So, she started, as Yanique said, actually went into her undergrad wanting to be a clinician and wanted to be a psychologist. And then she took abnormal psychology and didn't really know if that aligned with her long term, but taking organizational psychology really clicked, how do people, leaders and organizations work together to achieve results. So, she's had jobs in sales and marketing early in her career, she's worked in both the private as well as the not for profit sector. But the common thread that she really had across was how do you get the most out of people? How do you maximize people's potential? And so, it's been a great journey for her, she also had an opportunity to oversee the customer experience side of their business for about two and a half years and that includes both professional services support and learning operations. And so, she thinks from the range of opportunities she's had, and just a little bit on her mindset, where she's pretty open, she thinks you focus on the skills and the work you want to do versus the title, she's had an incredible journey thus far and look forward to continuing.   Key Best Practices for Leaders to Embrace and Practice to Grow and Develop a Successful Team Me: Now, people are so important in a business and of course, our podcast is focused on navigating the customer experience. And we're all customers in everything that we do, I live by the motto that we're all here on this earth to serve each other, in everything we do we serve each other, in our communities, in our schools, with our children, at church, just everything you do, you're offering some level of service to someone. And so, could you maybe share with us being that you have so much experience, developing people skills and talents and working on teams, where you've really been able to hone the best out of people. What do you think are maybe I would say, especially seeing that you have so much experience working with leadership teams across different continents and cultures. Maybe you could share with us maybe three to five things that you think is critical for leaders to embrace and practice on a daily basis in order to really have successful teams in an organization? Amanda stated that this is a this is a great question. And so, she thinks when you start as a leader, there's a peace around what are your values? What do you care about as you grow your business or your organization?   And she thinks that becomes the first foundation in terms of how you're going to grow the team. And so, she thinks there's been this great movement over the past few years where people have really said, bring your authentic leadership style to work, she thinks it's an incredible movement, because you can't be everything to everyone. And, and at the end of the day, you are who you are, and your company or your business is who you are, you're able to serve a certain customer base, you're able to engage with your employee base a certain way. And so, you really want to be rooted in that. She thinks employees are smart, they know that if they've been sold something in a recruiting process that's different when they show up to work, they might decide that they want to work somewhere else. So, she thinks as leaders, it's very important to be really strong in what you believe in, because there's a role for everyone and a company for everyone but being authentic and honest about it is so important. So, she always says start from that.   And certainly, it Resolver and as they continue to expand with Kroll, they have a deep value in the fact that employees are their customers, they're one of the customers that they serve, and she couldn't agree with Yanique more. Service is a key part of how leaders become really successful. And she always says if people in culture teams, they exist to serve the employee base. And so, they have to understand and learn from them and listen, and that's really why one of her values is that continued curiosity to understand how people operate and understand how she can continue to serve them. So, that she believes is really fundamental. She would say the second thing for leaders, just to give a couple is to really think about who are you going to recruit into your organization? So, once you know what your values are, how do you attract people that are going to align to those values? Again, there's a company for everyone and having people you can decide that you want to build a company that is extremely high performance, extremely metric driven. Well, there's people that are going to suit that environment that are much more competitive and much more driven towards those metrics and goals. So, making sure you have that alignment in the recruitment process is really critical.   She would say the third thing that made them really successful is building good onboarding programmes. So, she's always found it curious that companies invest a ton in recruiting great people, and then sit them in front of a workstation or at their home office, and hopefully they have a laptop, hopefully they have credentials, hopefully they know what they're doing. But setting people up for success early is really, really important. One thing they did at Resolver, is they really looked at how do you build an onboarding programme for a professional services team that was servicing their customer base, and they were able to get people successful and fully utilized at around four to five months versus around eight to nine months. So, when you're able to really drill in on those programmes, this is sometimes where people think that “Oh, it's just an HR programme, or it's just something HR is asking me to do.” But when you do it well, you can really start to generate revenue. And so, she would say to leaders, have your values aligned, attract the right people, and then make sure you're onboarding them extremely well. Not only does it help with engagement at the employee level, because she genuinely thinks people want to get up and be successful, they don't want to get up and do a bad job.   So, it helps them be successful. But there's also real monetary gain that you can have when you build those programmes well. But she would say those are the three right off the hop that she thinks if leaders do really well, they're going to create a really strong service culture within their organization.   Opportunities for Human Resource to Play Their Role   Me: Great. Now, apart from leaders, like the CEO and the CFO and the CMO, and all of the top-level leaders in an organization, HR plays a very integral role in an organization. And sometimes, the name HR stands for Human Resources, which is the human, as the name suggests, the resources of the business that are human. Sometimes I find that HR in an organization, very few organizations where I've interacted with the team members of a company, and they feel so comfortable going to their Human Resource people, how could we change that, what are some ways that we could look for opportunities that HR can really play the role they're supposed to play? I mean, apart from the standard things like benefits and ensuring that the organization is providing the teams with all of the resources that they need to get the job done, I think there's more that HR can play in terms of really supporting the team members. And sometimes when you talk to employees, they feel like HR is not for them. Do you get that feeling sometimes when you work with organizations or your interactions?   Amanda shared absolutely. This is such a great question. So, one thing they were really thoughtful about because when she joined the organization, she was the first hire to be within the function and she was really specific, because as a software company, very small software company, 90 people at the time when she joined, they're really afraid that HR was going to be seen as the police, the people that drove compliance, and you have to do this and don't step out a line. There was a philosophical alignment that was really important to have with the leadership team. And honestly, even for her as a professional, she wants to join an organization where HR is seen as strategic versus administrative. And so, they were very thoughtful, they're an early maturity team. And so, they called themselves the Talent Team, because they want to sit where be thought of as holding talent in the organization and enabling them to be successful. They've since broadened and evolved, and now we use the term people and culture, which she thinks is a bigger reflection. But she thinks there's a philosophical approach that if an organization, where do you sit on the spectrum as HR as administrative versus strategic, and so if you're part of an organization where HR is seen as strategic, you're probably really empowered to build programmes that think of employees through an employee lifecycle, much like we think of a customer lifecycle, you acquire, you onboard, you retain, you land and expand, same thing as you think about the employee journey. And so, she thinks if you're part of the organization where you're a little bit more on the strategic side, she thinks you're able to build some of those programmes, it's a sliding scale, she doesn't think there's any organization where you necessarily are sitting at hard either ends of that spectrum. Because certainly, there's a bunch of stuff in HR that is administrative, you've got to administer benefits, and you've got to make sure paperwork is done, that's super critical to a well-run people and culture organization, but it's just making sure that you work with leadership that truly sees people as the most significant investment they're going to make.   Most companies, if you're a knowledge-based organization, you probably spend between 60% to 80% of your operating budget on people. So, if you don't view it as strategic, you're really going to miss out on the opportunity to grow your business. And so, she thinks it's just how the organization thinks about it, she's always believed that change and success is rooted in results. So, she doesn't think you can necessarily change everything all at once. But if you change a really small thing early and you get success, the rest of the leaders in the organization will say, “Hey, maybe HR isn't as administrative as I thought it was, maybe it could do more. And maybe I should be relying on them to consult with the business.” So, she thinks it's got to kind of work both ways. There's a philosophical piece where you want your leadership to buy into, but it's also build programmes that are successful, because then you're going to be able to do a lot more.   App, Website or Tool that Amanda Absolutely Can't Live Without in Her Business   When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Amanda shared that for her personally, it's Asana, which is a task management and project management tool. They are a relatively flat organization and they do a lot of cross collaboration. And so, being able to have teams from product, people in culture, engineering, marketing, product marketing see one view of how they have to collaborate and work together and commit to timelines she thinks is a total game changer in terms of how they're able to manage accountability and push things forward. She thinks most organizations don't necessarily have a ton of maturity when it comes to project management or programme management, she knows certainly, that was a huge skill set she learned in her time at Resolver. And so, she thinks any tool that makes that faster, especially in a distributed world, where you can't always just rock up to someone's desk and say, “Oh, hey, did you finish that for me?” She thinks having that tool has really allowed for them to still deliver results and manage accountability and have a shared collaboration space. So, they're big Asana users, and she's a huge fan.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Amanda   When asked about books that have an impact, Amanda shared that she just reread John Kotter's Leading Change, With a New Preface by the Author, because change and change leadership is a huge part of how leaders have to continue to push their organizations to be innovative and to continuously improve. And so, he has a breadth of research and a ton of really good nuggets in there, which she's really appreciate it and she thinks are great for her as a leader. And then she's just a huge Brene' Brown fan, Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transform the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead, so that was a little bit more on a personal level. But she thinks it was really informative for her. And part of the hard work of being a leader is looking inside, it's not always pretty in there but it's what's going to make you better to serve your employees and your customers is looking inside and asking yourself the hard questions. And so, those are ones that she often recommends to people, they're very top of topical for her and have really helped her advance and continue to challenge herself in the way she leads.   Me: Amazing. I love Brene' Brown, I think her content is truly amazing. And she actually has a video that I found a couple of years ago on the difference between empathy and sympathy that she did at a TED talk, that I thought was really, really good, because I think a lot of people just really mix up the difference between being empathetic versus being sympathetic. And sometimes even the words that we use sends a signal of sympathy rather than one of empathy.   Amanda stated that she totally agrees. She thinks the work she's (Brené Brown) done on empathy, especially as it relates to the workplace, she's done an incredible job with that. For them, as Amanda has built various programmes on the employee side and on the customer side, she always thinks about ensuring that they're rooted in empathy. Because at the end of the day, understanding each other and supporting each other to achieve things is really how they're going to get results. So, she would say it's extremely central to how she's had an opportunity to build things. And for many companies, empathy is at the root of how you are going to be in service of both your employees and your customers.   What Amanda is Really Excited About Now!   When asked about something that's going on right now she is excited about, Amanda stated that that's a great question. So, recently Resolver was acquired in the spring of this year by Kroll, which is professional services company. And Resolver as well as several other technology companies are going to be the digital arm of Kroll, so Kroll Digital Services. So, she was very fortunate to be given the opportunity to step in as the Chief Human Resource Officer for that role, again, going back to her point about the HR title, but that's how they level them so that's fine. So, as a business unit that's emerging, that's going to be digital first inside a company, she's been given the very tall order to work with the team on how do we form a great culture within a digital first business unit? What does that look like? How do you integrate these companies that have slightly different cultures, but still want to achieve great things through technology for a vast array of customers around the world?   So, that's a very recent shift. So, it's really exciting, lots of work ahead. But she realized in her career, she likes building stuff, she has a value around getting to build stuff and getting to test and pilot things and so that's the next chapter for her. So, she's really excited for that.   Benefits of HR Using Technology to Enhance the Experience that Employees Have in the Organization   Me: So, when you were talking just now in terms of your new role and using technology, it piqued my interest to ask another question as it relates to human resources and technology. Maybe could you share with us one or two benefits of HR or the people arm of the business actually using technology to enhance the experience that employees have in the organization? How can technology help that?   Amanda shared that employees, especially over the past 10 to 15 years were such a tech first society, especially in North America, but globally, and so employees look at how they engage with their employers like they would as consumers. And so, they are, again our internal customers or consumers of processes and programmes that any organization is going to run. And so, being tech-enabled is super important, making it easy for people to update their employment records and it's not a piece of paper, but they can do it on their mobile, she thinks being able to do things like a performance review process through a technology that is fast and easy to do. And, again, potentially mobile enabled, super important. She thinks technology can help enable most things. She always say that technology doesn't solve the process, it just makes the process faster. So, what some people try to do is they say, “Okay, finally, I've got some budget, I'm going to put in a technology.” Which is great, it's wonderful, certainly she's worked with various organizations that were super paper based, which becomes a barrier for employees to engage with things like performance conversations. And so, again, the more tech enabled, you can make it the better. But the hard work is actually to step back and say, “What do we want this to look like? What are we trying to drive as the result, and then let's make sure the technology makes that true for us.”    So, she thinks technology has a wonderful capability to drive efficiency, specially drives reporting, because it makes it really easy for all information to be in one spot. But the hard work of the leadership team is to step back and to say, what do we actually want to achieve? Let's draw out a process that makes sense and then let's enable it through technology. She thinks sometimes people go the other way and she's seen it the other way and it ends up being a major challenge. Because at the end of the day, the process has to be good, it has to be simple for employees. To Yanique's point earlier about employees being customers, we as a society now really have a high bar for things being easy, for it being a few clicks, for it being enabled by technology. And so, if organizations are thinking about their employee base is not thinking differently when it comes to HR tech and how they interface with HR tech, they're probably going to have people that kind of moan and groan about the stuff they have to do on paper or an excel spreadsheet or anything like that. So, huge fan, think there's lots of work to be done to make it really effective. But she thinks certainly the reality of a pandemic and being most companies now having some form of distributed work team makes it doubly important to what it was three years ago. But that's definitely a frontier for people to make sure that they're crossing to ensure they're serving their employee base.   Me: Yeah. Wow. You know, you said three years ago, totally unrelated to what you're talking about and I just realized, wow, January, February makes it three years since we've been in this pandemic.   Amanda shared that it's wild and honestly, she thinks she's an optimist by design and one of the best outcomes from COVID for employees specifically and employers is twofold. One, it made us totally rethink if employees need to be in the office full time. And there's some jobs where that's still true. But there's many companies, Resolver, and Kroll Digital included, where you can be hybrid. And so, she thinks shifting that narrative was as true, we mark the three-year anniversary of that win for employees. And the second thing is people became a lot more open about talking about mental health and the impacts of mental health because the wall between work and home was just shattered for most of us. And so, she's certainly within their employee base notice a difference in the courage to have those conversations and to bring more vulnerability to work. She's seen that shift and it's a positive one because it allows them to understand that what people are going through and how they might support them moving forward. So, three years in, lots of stuff that she's sure we'd like to go back in time on. We're here or what we have. And she certainly thinks from an employee perspective, there's been some great wins and she hopes now what most companies are able to do is to say, “Okay, let's take what we've learned, and let's make the offering and how we serve our customer or employee base even better.”   Where Can We Find Amanda Online LinkedIn – Amanda Ono   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Amanda Uses   When asked about quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Amanda stated that she thinks this one needs to get printed on a T-shirt for her. Her granny told me when she was little, and it's constant on repeat for her, especially during COVID. But she thinks as you continue to evolve, “It's just controls what you can control.” There's so many things that are dependent and you can't really influence but if you really narrow focus on the things that you can move, even on days where you're not feeling the best, you have control to go out and get some fresh air and go for a walk and get some perspective, you have control of engaging with very kind relationships with people on your team, you have control to just kind of laugh off maybe that colleague that always is a little bit harsh on a call. So, that's her t-shirt, stated that probably she should wear it daily, maybe actually next time she pops onto a Zoom call with her team, she should have it on a t-shirt, they'll probably like that. But that's definitely hers, control what you can control.   Me: Control what you can control. Love it. Well, thank you so much, Amanda for hopping on to our podcast and Navigating the Customer Experience, sharing all of these great insights and nuggets as it relates to people and culture, building strong teams, the importance of leadership and some of the key things that leaders need to do in order to build successful teams and great cultures. And just sharing with us, based on your journey, your experiences that you've had, and allowing our listeners to really tap into what are some ways that they can explore to really navigate and create great success. We're embarking on a new calendar year, lots of great opportunities that we may not have been able to tap into in 2022 and those doors may still be open in 2023. So, we really appreciate you sharing this great content with us today.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links Leading Change, With a New Preface by the Author by John Kotter Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transform the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead by Brene' Brown   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Sanja Licina is here to discuss with us all of the wonderful things that we can help you to master your customer experience. Her goal in life is to help make people happier. Most of us spend so much of our lives working and there is still a tremendous opportunity to help people feel better connected to their companies, to their colleagues and to feel passionate to make a difference with their work.   So, she's dedicated her career to helping companies create a culture that employees love to be part of. She has been fortunate to travel to over 60 countries and lives on three continents. And through this journey meets the most amazing, inspirational and passionate people. Collaborating this incredibly diverse group has given her even more confidence that together she can make a difference. Those who know her are aware of her deep passion for data and technology, which will be a key to helping all of us transform the world of work.   Questions   Could you share with us a little bit about how you got to where you are today? Could you share with our listeners what is QuestionPro? And how does that really dove tail or fit into the whole customer experience puzzle? How does your company help customer experience? QuestionPro focuses a lot on market research. Could you share with us if your target is predominantly large companies, or let's say for example, someone has an organisation with 20 employees, but they have a pretty large customer base, would your company be able to provide services for them as well? what are some key indicators or trends that you have noticed since you're already in this space, what do you think companies need to be focusing on in order to ensure that they're really tapping into the needs of their customers? Could you share with our listeners, how do you stay motivated every day? What makes you keep going? Could you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Could you share a book that has had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago or even one that you read recently. Could you share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people? Where is the best place that listeners can find you online? Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you get derailed or just get you back on track with what you're working on. Do you have a quote like that?   Highlights   Sanja's Journey   Me: Even though we read your bio that basically gives us a summary of what you do. But we love to hear from our guests in their own words, a little bit about how they got to where they are today.   Sanja stated that as mentioned, she's had a privilege of living on three different continents. And she's actually talking with Yanique right now out of Buenos Aires, Argentina. She was born and raised in Belgrade, Serbia, and spend about half of her life in the United States. And so, for her, she's had this incredible pleasure of interacting with so many different people in her life path both personally and professionally.   And so, her profession is Organizational Psychologist and she actually currently is president of a business unit called the Workforce at a company called QuestionPro. And they also have a customer experience business unit. So, in her life, she feels like she's had, again, this personal/professional intersection where she had a pleasure working for an organization that's not only helping people feel seen and valued at work, but also has this tremendous focus on customer experience. Because we're all the same thing, we don't look at the person and say, “Okay, you're an employee now. But five minutes later, you're a customer only. And then maybe you're going to be an employee, again.” We really of course, are all of these things.   And additionally, no kids and parents and spouses and a million other things. So, she looks at that life experience, and she just have this huge passion for helping people be seen, and really helping organizations, whether it's from customer experience, or employee experience, understand the why behind people's behaviours and people's needs. Because when we understand that is really when we have this tremendous opportunity to provide people with better cultures, with better services, with better products, platforms, etc. So, she could go on and on, but she'll turn the mic back over.   What is QuestionPro?.... How Does Your Company Help Customer Experience?   Me: I mentioned in your bio, as well, as you mentioned just now in giving us a little overview of who you are, that you are attached to an organization call QuestionPro. So, could you share with our listeners what is Question Pro? And how does that really dove tail or fit into the whole customer experience puzzle? How does your company help customer experience?   Sanja shared that she's had this incredible pleasure of actually about 15 years ago, being a customer of QuestionPro and using their survey technology to better connect with people who were looking for jobs, looking for different opportunities in the organization. And today, she sits on the other side, because again, her experience was so positive, as a customer that she thought she'd love an opportunity to actually join and help QuestionPro have an even wider reach and work with more organizations.   And so, when it comes to customer experience again, QuestionPro has multiple different divisions, and they're also really big in market research. So, they have access to over 40 million people worldwide to really be able to understand consumer behaviours, employee behaviours, purchasing whatever it is that an organization or research institution is looking to solve.   They have both the technology, the expertise, and helping them craft those questions, as well as the audience to really help them solve those challenges. And then they also have the CX and EX business units, they really work seamlessly together. CX in particular, working with organizations again, to understand how do they best connect with people that they're doing business with?   How do they reach them in the point that they can get the best information around their perception of who they are as an organization, their satisfaction, and how do they interact. And then, of course, the EX part where it fills that loop because there's so much research where they see that how satisfied you are in your job, how connected you feel to the company's mission and vision that has a huge impact and how you interact with customers.   So, they've really at QuestionPro look for these multiple ways to understand the world around us that as we know, is just changing faster than it ever has before. And we have every reason to believe that that's just going to exponentially accelerate, and be able to give this holistic vision of what that customer experience is, not only in a way that person interacts with a product or a platform or a brand, but really understand, again, from all of these different angles as an organization, what can their clients do better and differently to really give their customers a better experience.   So, it's all very much research based, data driven and they really pride themselves on creating these very empathetic conversations. She was mentioning earlier the why, they want every person to feel seen, to feel heard, that when that conversation is happening, they really truly believe that the organization on the other end cares about them as an individual, not only about the consumer of their product. And she thinks the more data they have, and the more holistic understanding they have of that, the better off they'll be as a society and the better off each one of their clients will be.   Does Your Company Target Predominantly Large Companies? What Companies Need to Focus on in Order to Ensure That They Tap into the Needs of Their Customers   Me: So, QuestionPro focuses a lot on market research. Could you share with us if your target is predominantly large companies, or let's say for example, someone has an organization with 20 employees, but they have a pretty large customer base, would your company be able to provide services for them as well? That's part A of my question. And then Part B. In terms of market research, what are some key indicators or trends that you have noticed since you're already in this space, what do you think companies need to be focusing on in order to ensure that they're really tapping into the needs of their customers? Because sometimes a company offers something to a customer, but I think they're doing it for your own benefit and not necessarily what the customer actually wants or needs.   Sanja stated that they are both great questions from a standpoint of what kind of organizations they work with, they actually span a very, very wide, wide range. They even have, of course, they work with larger companies. However, they even have programmes where they have free platforms, free programmes for entrepreneurs, because they believe that really stand apart experience does not only sit with the largest organizations, it's everyone that wants to really bring a unique idea to the world, to the marketplace.   They all are looking to have conversations with those individuals that they're looking to serve. And the better educated, the better targeted conversation you can have, the more quickly you can iterate on your product and on the way that you interact with your consumers to really make sure that what you're bringing out there is relevant, it's timely, and that you're adjusting it based on the market needs. So, when it comes to the part A of your question, when it comes to organizations, they really work whether you have 20 employees or whether you have 200,000 employees, they work with those organizations.   Now, when it comes to trends, she mentioned she an Organizational Psychologist. So, research is at the heart of everything she does. Data is what drives her decisions. And she's been an Organizational Psychologist for quite a while, so she's seen during her studies, they mostly relied on survey data to really inform their research, understand what's going on. Since then, there's been an explosion of behavioral kind of data, there's just a lot more information available for organizations to make a decision, which is absolutely phenomenal. What a what an incredible luxury for us to have.   However, one of the things that she noticed a few years back is a lot of people, very boldly saying, “Well, now that we have all this behavioral data, who needs surveys anymore?”   And she just thought this was even way before she worked at QuestionPro. She just grabbed her heart, and she thought, but what do you mean, these are to her, she calls it empathy at scale. It's these conversations we can have with people at scale to understand what they need, to understand how they feel, to have them feel seen and heard.   Behavioral data, again, is phenomenal and she would never discount it, but when you see how a person is acting, and oftentimes she'll compare that to a personal relationship.   So, for example, if her husband comes home, and he's behaving a certain way, if she's in a good relationship, would she not ask him what's going on? And she sees this behavioral data, he must have had a bad day at work, well, maybe it was his family, maybe he's not feeling well, there could be all of these different reasons.   And so, a big part of the reason why she loves what they do is they provide organizations a platform to have this conversation, to have it in a very humane way. And a lot of the trends that we're seeing, and we're also trying to influence.   She remembers again, back in the day, 20 plus years ago, when she was getting her PhD, a lot of times surveys, she guess, for lack of a better word, were very surgical, you would ask somebody based on your experience, how would you rate this on a scale of one to five, but there's so much more humanity that can be entered into that if you are interacting with any kind of product or platform, you're doing it for a reason.   And so, that organization has an opportunity to ask you, “Hey, we know what are you looking to accomplish for this, when you chose us, what was that reason? What are maybe some of your goals that you're looking to accomplish today?” So, maybe somebody is buying a piece of makeup, and we assume that it's for something aesthetic for themselves, but maybe it was for a family member, maybe it was in a moment that they're working on self-improvement, there is so much that can be understood when you think of a person that you're interacting with, as a human, as somebody, all of us, no matter how good of relationships we have, when you sit across, she will call a table even though it's a virtual table, virtual survey, and you feel like somebody's asking you questions where they truly care about you, you'll never want to miss that conversation.   And for the organizations on the other side, the amount of insights that you will get not only about necessarily a specific interaction that somebody had with one person in a store, but to open up that opportunity to have a conversation with someone and we're seeing so many changes in the market, we're seeing changes in people's behaviour.   For example,  she bought a piece of makeup recently, and she ordered it online. And she did so because this never happened in her life, but she lost her entire makeup bag travelling back from New York. Exactly. She was pretty calm about and she said, okay, let her think about different pieces that she needed. And she ordered something online because her schedule is chaotic and balancing her work and her four-year-old and her family and many different things.   And she could have walked to the store, but she just didn't have a chance to. And so, she ordered something online, and unfortunately, they sent her the wrong thing. It happens, not big of a deal, we'll figure it out. She went to the store, they said she needed a code to change it. Okay, it was a little sad, it's going to be just difficult. She came back and they gave her an email to write to and she wrote and somebody very nice wrote back and said, “Well, we're so sorry, we made a mistake. Okay, well, here's the shipping label, if you could print it out and go to the shipping store.” And she said, “I'm really sorry, that's not going to work for me. I ordered this because I just don't have the time. And now you're asking me to go to one place print a label, go to another place and mail this, wait for it to come back home.”   And they came back, and they said, “Okay, we'll make an exception.” But in some ways that was a missed opportunity for a conversation if they can know the location where she's in, so it's that behavioural data, they see that she ordered something, the solution that they provided out of the goodness of their heart didn't make sense to her. But if they took that opportunity to just ask a few questions and say, “Hey, we're looking to solve your challenge. Can you just help us understand what was the main reason you ordered online?” They probably could have given her much quicker, a better solution, without her being frustrated.   So again, it's every time thinking about that individual that put trust in a brand that choose, we have so many options for everything these days. And it's so much easier to choose than it was ever before because so many things are online, so much advertising is online, so you're aware, not only are there more options, but she thinks we're aware of more options than we ever were before. To ask those like, what was the reason for something, to get to know a person a little bit better, you can start to build out that persona, and at a scale, have a better understanding of people in one to one how you have that conversation and how you collect the information will tremendously help build that relationship. You can probably tell she's very passionate about what she does, because she probably just talked for about 10 minutes straight, but she hopes it's at least a little bit helpful.   Me: Of course, definitely. Everything you said was just so valuable just now, it is really paying attention and being mindful and asking the right questions. And I say all the time that companies collect so much information from us from time to time, depending on the product or service that you're engaging with. And I don't find that they're really using that data to the best, to the fullest capacity. Sometimes they even ask questions to answers that they have already. And that just goes to show that they're not paying attention to the data that they're collecting. So, it's good for you to put it in perspective like that and give us an example. Because then it really brings it home, because it's not just about saying that I took information, but what did I actually do with it? And if I was asking the right questions, based on what was happening to you with the makeup situation, you would have probably gotten a way better solution and definitely one that you would have been pleased with.   How Sanja Stays Motivated?   When asked about how she stays motivated, Sanja shared that she is by nature a very positive person, a very optimistic person, a happy person. But she says even given that, she has her moments where she's just tired or cranky, so we're all human. It's not easy to ride that high all the time. But to her, there are a couple of things. She thinks that first if we keep in mind that there are all of those like different cartoons about careers and staying motivated, and the path to success and this ladder. And there's one where you see a really, really long ladder, and you feel like, “Oh, I'm never going to get there.” But then you look back and you see how much you've accomplished.   So, there's actually a book that she's halfway through now. It's called The Gap and The Game: The High Achievers' Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success and it was written by two gentlemen, Dan Sullivan, and was with Dr. Benjamin Hardy. It's a book about focusing on the things that you have accomplished more than the things that you have not accomplished yet. And it really resonated with her to the point that she was actually at the hairdresser on Saturday. And she was starting to get tears in her eyes because of the stories that they were sharing, she thought, ah, if more people can think this way, if more people can really take a step back and understand especially this happens not in the moments of celebration, right in the moments of celebration, and when something really great happens, you don't need to stay motivated, that celebration in itself might be enough.   But in the moments when you just tried something, and it didn't work. And we say ah, failure is so critical to success. But it's tough when it happens, and we need to talk ourselves into a better space and that's human. But one of the things that she really loved about this book, is this reflection on taking the time and looking back at what you have accomplished in the last month, in the last year, in the last 10 years. And she thinks if we do that more as people, if we do that more systematically, each individual person will realize how much they have to celebrate, and it doesn't mean that we should not be motivated by goals, of course, that's still important.   But more often than not, when we're achieving those goals, we're going to have missteps, we're going to make bets on things that we're going to be sure are going to help us and realize they didn't. And it's in those moments to take a step back and say, “Okay, but what did I do? How much of a difference have I made? How many people have I maybe helped along the way? And how much have they helped myself along the way?” Sanja thinks that is absolutely tremendously powerful.   And she was actually talking with a colleague of hers, and he asked her, “Oh, but Sanja, like, do you feel like you can do that all the time?” And she said, “Of course not, that's why I'm reading this book.” She's still very much a work in progress, all of us are. But finding, seeking out these ways to really help ourselves, especially during the moments that are challenging, and she mentioned before that she does believe the world around us is changing so quickly. And what's sometimes hard about that is that things that we experimented with before are things that we've had success with before. A lot of times, the circumstances around us have changed so much that if we repeat the exact same thing, we will not get that success. So, it's not just about this mastery of oh, I have experience, I'm older and wiser. But wait a minute, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years passed, since tried the strategy, the world around me is very different. I can try it again but if it doesn't succeed, I still need to have that passion and energy to try again.   So, she thinks really so much of it is about the mindset. But also people understanding that if something does happen that's not as successful as expected it to be, to give themselves some time to feel that frustration, almost like the 5-10 minutes or however long it takes of mourning, look back, reflect and then go ahead again. That's really where her mind is these days. And again, she's enjoyed this book tremendously and the mindset that it helps people develop. So, she would say that would be one of the ways that she stays motivated.   App, Website or Tool that Sanja Absolutely Can't Live Without in Her Business   When asked about online resources that she cannot live without her in business, Sanja shared that she was thinking about that question. And she thought as she looked at her thought phone, she thought, she has so many apps on her phone, and she has so many ways of communication. And as they were saying earlier in their conversation, she's lived in so many continents, and she has people that she loves and even more continents than where she's lived. So, to stay up on news and research and everything, it requires quite a few. But she would say the one publication that she really enjoys is Harvard Business Review, she thinks for her line of work, it's really powerful, the articles are very well thought out.   It rolls into the application that she may be use the most and that's probably LinkedIn, nobody's going to sit in their chair and be like, “Wow, I've never heard of that. Well, let me write it down.” But in to her, she really likes it because it summarizes a lot of her professional interests.   Of course, a lot of times LinkedIn is as good as the people you're connected with, and people that you follow. So, she tries to make a very conscious effort that if she reads books from authors that she enjoys, if they happen to be on LinkedIn, she either follows them or connect with them. She does the same for the publications that she enjoys, whether it's again, Harvard Business Review, or The Economist or any other ones.   And then it's also interesting, because she has to admit that unlike a lot of other maybe social media platforms, you tend to connect with more like-minded individuals, so that's something to be careful about. She tries to proactively connect with people or follow people who maybe have different experiences than her, maybe slightly different beliefs than her because it's one place where she feels like she can get more of, she guess in her professional life more so than personal life exposed to different ideas, although more people are sharing things personally on LinkedIn, which she really enjoys. And it's one place that she can pop into every once in a while, and it increases her awareness of maybe again, books that she should read or interesting articles or different viewpoints or, to your point, what's going on around the world, what are organizations doing, what are people researching.   And she also loves that it gives her a platform to share some of what she knows back. So, she probably consumes information from LinkedIn a lot more than she shares, but she tries to hold herself accountable. They do a lot of research at QuestionPro and that's one of the things. Again, she enjoys most even though really a big focus on her personal job is employee experience and working with organizations on that, she's doing a lot of market research herself.   And when she finds information that she feels like she hasn't really come across this before, she thinks for somebody that's in a similar practice as she is would find this valuable, it also gives her a platform in a way to have a conversation. So, she's not just consuming the news and consuming the information, but she can also try to add value to those that she's connected with as well. And that makes her feel really good.   And of course, some things she shares, she's sure some people find a lot of value and other things maybe a little less. But she loves that feeling that she can actually contribute to the society as much as she's taking back out of it. So again, she doesn't think anybody's writing this down as an application they've never heard of, they do. And she's been very conscious about how she uses it. And she has found a lot of value when she has limited time. And she can't go to all the many applications that she has, she feels like to her, especially professionally, but even personally, it adds a lot of value.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Sanja   Me: When we asked you how you stayed motivated, you did share one book with us. So, since you gave us one already, maybe you can give us one more book that you believe has had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book you read a very long time ago or even one that you read recently.   When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Sanja shared that she has a whole list next to her, but she'll summarize it. And if you look at a lot of the books she has today are on Kindle, because it's not as easy to find books in English in Argentina, and she's a faster reader in it. So, she has professional books, she has her what they call, quote unquote, somewhat guilty pleasures, but a lot of times they're really beautiful novels. And then they have kid development books. Today she'll share the professional ones, for the audience will be maybe the most relevant.   The one that's still somewhat recent, but she just absolutely loves, in line with our conversation is Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant. The reason she says that is because there's so many people with such strong beliefs and she thinks on the one hand, it's beautiful. And she thinks on the other hand, the more effectively we can open up our mind to other people's ideas, and understand where they're coming from, the better we're going to be as individuals. And in many ways, one of the areas she's really passionate about and she focus on is diversity and inclusion.   And the best way that we can really connect with others, feel compassionate, feel empathetic, understand where they're coming from, is to take the time to understand their perspective, take the time to understand where they're coming from, to her, personally, it is so incredibly fulfilling as a human. But she thinks as a humanity, the more effectively we can do that and the more effectively we can tell people why it's valuable to them, that it's not that somebody is going to talk with you to try to convince you that you're wrong. But if somebody wants to talk with you to give you an even better perspective, to give you even more knowledge, to give you a different view, it doesn't mean that you need to change your opinion. But that pretty much without fail, you're going to be a better person because of it. She thinks not only professionally, but as a humanity, the more effectively we can do that we'll be in such a better place.   So, it is a relatively recent book. And it's again, one of those concepts that when you hear and maybe it's not like, “Well, Sanja, that's really earth shattering!” But she thinks how we do it, how we approach it, and she catches herself still right? Like she catches herself being so strong in some of her beliefs and she's realized over her lifetime, that there were times that she was quick to judge someone, and there were times that she would have been a better friend, a better partner, a better leader, if she would have just taken time to listen.   She's gotten to the point that she's trying to very consciously be much more open minded in everything she does, sometimes she needs to be proactive about it, it still doesn't always come as naturally as she would like to, she thinks that's most things in life that we care about, we have to work on. But it's also how you approach it and how often you catch yourself that even if you believe, quote unquote, you're a certain kind of person to do some self-reflection and say, “Am I really being that person consistently? Am I really showing up for the people that I'm around, really being open minded, really rethinking my stances, from very maybe large societal things to maybe even some small things and how we run our CX and EX programmes.”So, she will just mention that one from her list. There are many more, but she thinks that was probably a good one.   What Sanja is Really Excited About Now!   When asked about something that's going on that she's really excited about, Sanja stated what a phenomenal question. Sanja shared that she runs a business and a lot, of course, how successful her business is comes down to revenue and comes down to the number of clients they have, and so, many times that's in North, but a lot of what she's reading about, and she's passionate about professionally and personally is how to impact those around her. And so, there are different ways that she's experimenting in being a leader first. And of course, a parent and a spouse and everything in her personal life for those people that are what she would call, for lack of better word, her first-degree connections, and comes of almost importance.   When they reflect back 5 years from now, 10 years from now, she wants them to think of her as a person that had a positive influence on them. One of the things that she's experimenting with, because she gets asked a lot about herself, she gets asked a lot about her career, her passions, and a lot of her life was not conventional. And a lot of the decisions that she's made could be surprising to people around why would she make it at that stage of my life? If she made that decision, how did she still end up where she is today? How does she maintain that happiness?   And so, something that she's thinking about actually have a podcast as well, where they reach a wider audience, and they talk about work related issues and life related issues. And so, one of the things she's thinking about is, how much does she want to scale out that impact? Doesn't make sense to have a broader audience? Does it make sense to try to reach more people and motivate them? Or is it not even motivate them, but make them feel confident, make them feel excited about taking risks, make them feel excited about what's possible that they maybe thought they could never accomplish. But really, truly they can. And that's one, it's a little high level, but she's just thinking about it from the sense of what's the best way to reach people in a very personal way? And like, we're saying things are changing, is it in the form of writing a book? Is it a form of continuing a show? Is it a form of videos, but her aspiration is, if any little thing that she says can actually leave people with a better feeling about themselves, she would love to be able to do that at larger scale.   And so, she's just going through the process of thinking, what is that best path now? So, she will keep us posted, she doesn't have all the answers yet. It's a little bit of an experimentation time, but that's something that she's been reflecting on recently. And she's feeling more and more passionate about, so she thinks that'll be somewhat of her next big project.   Where Can We Find Sanja Online   LinkedIn – Sanja Licina Twitter – @SanjaLicina   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Sanja Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to in times of adversity or challenge, Sanja shared you won't be surprised based on the books that she was just mentioning. And some of what keeps her motivated, it changes over time and it changes based on what she's experiencing at the moment. Right now, one that really resonated with her and again, this is personal and professional is, “Be thankful for you are now and keep fighting for where you want to be tomorrow.”   Me: Oh, very nice. Very simple. Very nice. I'm a big gratitude buff so it's nice to hear that the quote is actually has some level of gratitude in. I have a gratitude app that I write stuff in daily and I actually have a gratitude journal and a gratitude jar. So gratitude is something I practice consistently, I think it really helps. I think as human beings, we complain a lot about what we don't have and what we want, we're not satisfied with where we are. But if we do take time, I think to be grateful and thankful for where we are and what we do have, I believe that more will abound onto us naturally.   Sanja agreed, absolutely. I love that. And she loves that, that's one of her aspirations, like where you're mentioning, like journaling and writing that down…I'm very much a work in progress when it comes to that, she doesn't do it consistently. But she knows that there's tremendous value there.   And she thinks to Yanique's point, there are so many things happening around us that we can find ourselves saying, “I'm not good enough, I'm not doing this enough, I don't have enough money.” There's so many not enough's that it just an every single person, no matter where they are in their journey, have so many things that they can be grateful for, even during times of real hardship, when she thinks finding that is even more important and even much more challenging than during the days that the things are going well.   She thinks the more we can instill that in ourselves, the easier it's going to be and to her, she catches herself every day she needs to move forward, every day she needs to accomplish something, while a day is 24 hours, it is not a whole lot of time to really do something significant. And so, she thinks if we can continue to reflect back, while we continue to build, it's going to give us in those moments, like we were saying where it's like, ah, I feel like maybe I'm falling short, giving us that energy to really fight through whatever adversity we have, or whatever challenges, it's just going to be that much more powerful.   So, she loves that Yanique does that very, very proactively and very intentionally. And she hopes that for people who are listening that inspires some more of them to do that as well, because she knows it's so incredibly valuable.   Me: Yeah, it is amazing. Thank you so much, Sanja. We just want to say thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule, for hopping on this podcast with us today. And sharing all of these great gems and nuggets that I know our listeners are going to scoop up once they get the opportunity to listen to it first-hand. I know for sure I totally enjoyed this conversation and I just wanted to express my immense gratitude to you for sharing all these wonderful nuggets with us.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links   The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers' Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!   Big RYG Customer Success Leadership Summit October 12-13, 2022 Washington DC Sign Up

Matt Swain is a recognized Customer Communications Industry Thought Leader. From delivering keynotes around the world to defining best practices, hundreds of well-known companies have relied on Matt's expertise and research for their current and future omni-channel communication initiatives.   As Managing Director and Practice Lead for a Broadridge Communications Consulting, Matt brings in valuable market research and consulting expertise to clients relative to benchmarking, as well as for communication strategy, design and execution across print and digital channels.   Prior to joining Broadridge, Matt spent more than a decade at Keypoint Intelligence - InfoTrends, where he was a member of the senior management team with global responsibility for business development and customer communications advisory services. Matt is a graduate of Rochester Institute of Technology and holds a Master's degree in print media.   Questions   We always like to give our guests the opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. How did you get to where you are today? The fourth annual CX and communication survey that your company had done, where you studied 3000 North American consumers, highlighting some of the major points and gaps in the customer experience two years into the pandemic. Could you tell us a little bit about the survey and some of the results that that survey created? What are some of the most interesting research that you have seen are conducted in the customer experience space, and could you share with us also maybe what are some of the things that have surprised you the most in that research? Now as it relates to personalization, the report says 65% of consumers would prefer to receive fewer, more tailored communications through their preferred channel. What has your research shown in terms of, do you still find companies all over the place? So, you said that consumers were looking for a more engaging digital experience, could you share with us maybe one or two things that you think a company could employ or put in place to make their digital experience more engaging? What are your thoughts on organizations, because digital, it's been accelerated because organizations who weren't even fully digital or were looking to put digital as part of their strategy definitely had to do some quick acceleration because of the fact that we're all stuck at home. How do they bridge that gap? Because people I think still want human interaction? Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people? How can listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get overwhelmed or challenge? And the quote kind of helps to get you back on track or just get you back refocused.   Highlights   Matt's Journey   Matt stated that he was listening to that bio and he was thinking, he actually didn't realize Yanique read the whole thing. So, thank you for doing that. As where you ended was that he holds a Master's in print media and that's a very specific degree, especially for a master's degree. And many of the people that went through that programme, were going back to run print operations, they might have had a family business or otherwise.   And he was actually interested in print as one of the media channels that we now use to communicate. And so, actually, he did his Master's Thesis on the shifting spend of companies across different media. So, print was a starting point for him but he spends a lot of time now helping clients transition from print to digital communications and look specifically at how to create better experiences with the communications that they send.   The fourth annual CX and Communication Survey Results Highlighting Major Points and Gaps in the Customer Experience 2 Years into the Pandemic   Me: Now, in preparing for this interview, I was looking at the fourth annual CX and communications survey that your company had done, where you studied 3000 North American consumers, highlighting some of the major points and gaps in the customer experience two years into the pandemic. Could you tell us a little bit about the survey and some of the results that the survey created?   Matt shared that this was a passion project of his when he first started it, which was in 2019 and he has a really strong marketing and support team that helps execute on it. And what's really been interesting watching the data over the last four years of conducting the research is, there have been some notable shifts, specifically relative to customer experience. So, for instance, in 2019, they found that 35% of consumers thought that most of the companies they did business with needed to improve the experiences they provide. So, let's say you know, roughly one in three had that position.   In 2022 now that we've gone through, we're well into a pandemic, depending on which way you look at it, they now find that 65% of consumers, so an increase of 30 percentage points, 65% of consumers think that most of the companies they do business with need to improve the experiences they provide. And that is quite a jarring shift from his perspective.   And he thinks it speaks to the increased expectation that we as consumers have on the companies that we do business with, but also it shows a separation of the leaders from the rest of the pack when it comes to customer service and customer experience.   Research Done in the Customer Experience Space   Me: Very true. And so, a big part, we're all going through the pandemic, as you said, I guess it depends on how people want to look on it. But what are some of the most interesting research that you have seen are conducted in the customer experience space, and could you share with us also maybe what are some of the things that have surprised you the most in that research?   Matt shared that the research covers customer experience, but then also goes into specifics around what consumers are looking for from the companies they do business with. So, they found a lot of trending data around customer service, wanting better experiences when they needed that service experience. And at the same time, they're also asking for the use of technology, AI, chatbots to be a first line of defence to answer easy questions. And he thinks this is actually tripping a lot of companies up because there's technology out there that can reduce the cost to service a customer.   But the challenge is that companies are becoming too reliant on the technology, and it's resulting in reduced customer satisfaction, because they're not getting flipped to a live agent when they should be in that process.   So, a lot of the negative feedback that they see in the research is that people are looking for a sense of humanity or empathy, or “Let me speak to the Operator or make sure that I can understand the person that I speak to.”   And he thinks that that component is so critical, when you think about where somebody is in the journey when they need to contact you, there's usually some challenge in the communications that you've sent, or they're dealing with something very personal, and they need to be serviced in a more personal way. And so, it's a really delicate balance.   So, they look at the impact from a customer service perspective of new technology it being incorporated into that journey. But then they're also stepping back and saying, “Well, why did that person had to have to reach out in the first place?”   So again, through his lens, from a communication standpoint, it is, “Well, if you sent a bill or a statement to your customer….. Was it summarized? Was it easy to understand? Was it written in plain language? Did it have relevant content?”   Because ultimately, what they're hoping that they can help their clients get to is a very seamless experience and that they send a communication whether it's in print, or digitally, and the recipient can quickly digest the information and understand what action they need to take, review my account, pay a bill, sign a waiver, whatever that next step is, that's what they're hoping that they're going to be able to do efficiently and hopefully reduce that aspect of call centre volume.   Personalization – Consumers Prefer Fewer, More Tailored Communication Through Their Preferred Channel   Me: Agreed. Now, in the survey that was done, you focused on customer experience omni-channel approach personalization. Now as it relates to personalization, the report says 65% of consumers would prefer to receive fewer, more tailored communications through their preferred channel. What has your research shown in terms of, do you still find companies all over the place? Or are they more taking a more centralized approach?   Because I do agree, I think it's really great if you could generally get everything in one place instead of you're looking up information here but that information that's located on that platform is not located on this one, is just like you're all over the place.   Matt stated that there's another aspect to that, which is who are the 30 something percent of people that don't want that right?   From a personalization standpoint, actually specific to that, they do find people that want to remain somewhat anonymous digitally and they don't want companies to use their personal data in any other way than they should be using. And they actually asked a separate question around sharing of personal data, so additional data that you as a company don't need, but would the consumer provide it to you if it enhance their experience, created a better experience?   And they found that about half of Gen Z and Millennial respondents said that they would be willing to provide that and that dropped off for a Gen X and baby boomer audience that was less willing to provide incremental information.   Going back to Yanique's original question around centralization. He thinks they find one of the biggest challenges in a lot of their clients, especially their larger clients is they've grown through acquisitions, they have different lines, each line of business has its own underlying systems. And each head of the business might kind of operate their own fiefdom to some extent, which from a business owner perspective, can be advantageous or easier.   But from a consumer or investor or recipient perspective, that can be really painful because he's having to log into different systems, or he doesn't have a total view of his relationship with that company in one centralized location.   And he thinks that is an area that really needs to be addressed. But it comes back to the underlying systems that the people, the processes and the technology supporting that ecosystem that needs to be simplified and addressed before you can deliver on that better experience that the consumer is asking for.   Me: Agreed. Sometimes I think organizations take simple and make it complex when it really should just be so easy. And I'll give you an example. I'm currently doing some market research for a client and in the midst in the market research training that we did with persons yesterday, we forgot to ask them if any of them were existing customers of that particular company. So, I kind of just wanted to send out a quick google form to capture that information so we had it on file. And so, we jump on Google Forms simply asking one question, and I literally spent like probably about 15 minutes, just trying to Google, how do you get multiple responses in a Google form?   And there was like, no clear answer, because it has multiple choice, but then when we did the test, and we clicked on it, we realized that the respondent would only be able to select one answer. And there may be cases where they are a customer of the company, but they're not a customer of all business lines.   And so, there are three business lines that we're doing the market research for, and we just wanted to find out if these persons were one customer of a business line, or no customer, or multiple customers have a business line. And it took me so long to find it.   And I said to myself, Google usually makes things so simple. Why in their form did I have to do so much digging to figure out that instead of selecting multiple choice, I should have selected checkbox, because checkbox acts like a multiple choice, but it allows you to select multiple responses or answers. And that came to mind a while ago, just because of what you said.   I find that sometimes we think the technology is there to help us, it's not supposed to be rocket science, I'm not supposed to be trying to figure out, okay, where do I find this information.   It should be there, quick and easy, either in settings or as a drop down so that you can know that that's an option that you can exercise on us. Would you not agree?   Matt shared that we would and he thinks the irony, there is part of ensuring that you've delivered on that better experience is doing that voice of customer that surveying much like you would use the Google Form to do surveying of your audience, right?   So, they find that often where, again, through his lens they'll work with a client and say, let's conduct some voice of customer research and they use a platform where they'll enable a customer of theirs to go in and navigate their online account. And they'll say one of the common prompts is navigate to your most recent statement.   And it's really interesting to watch people try to find that statement and it's usually in a drop down, the third or fourth drop down over which isn't really that intuitive to know that a statement is going to be the eighth line on the drop down. And it's one of those where for those people that were building it, they know exactly where it is because that's how they built it and that's the approach they took. But for the consumer to navigate to it, that helps expose may be an opportunity to improve or streamline that experience for consumers that are looking to get access to that document.   Me: Yeah, I agreed. Totally agree. I guess as you said, that's why it's important to test it because then you get to see multiple approaches as to how different people will navigate on that platform. In customer service, we have this thing, this example that we use that we normally say, a school or a university, they basically wanted to see what the path was of the students as they were walking on the campus. And so, they waited until it snowed, and then they kind of watched people's pattern to see where they walked and that's what they use as a guide to make that the actual pathway.   Because you might create a situation or a building where you've created a pathway for people to walk but maybe that's not where they naturally gravitate to walk. And so, if you look on it from an online perspective, if someone goes on a site, maybe because of how they're trained, because of other platforms that they've used, or just genuine human interaction or intuition, they may go to the right of the page, or to the top of the page thinking that's where they're going to find that particular item. But maybe that's not where it's supposed to be. And if you look at the pattern of how people operate, it would indicate to you if the structure that you're putting in place is really the best place to place that.   Are people going to be able to find it easily? Is it going to be frustrating for them? Are they going to have to be reaching out to your support team to find out how to get that information?   How easy is it for them to find this information, and it should be easy enough that I think a five or six year old should be able to find it.   Matt shared that he loves the analogy with the snow on the surface, he immediately goes to that visual that we've all seen where you see the trampled trodden and dirt path that cuts the corner, the concrete path, or whatever it is the cobblestone. But he also thinks there's also a component of this, that when we think about what the company is trying to achieve, and then looking at what the experience is, so he uses that statement navigation as an example.   These are the same companies that are very aggressively asking their customer base to go paperless. So, take the paper out of the process, because it saves us money, we don't have to print and mail it. But then when you look at the value proposition for the consumer, it's not there, right?   Like what's in it for me to go paperless?   Now I have to go to your website and navigate and try to find this and the experience is no better, usually it's a static. And he's generically saying this, not all of their clients are this way. But it points you to a static document, not an interactive digital experience that provides more value than he would have gotten in paper.   And that was actually a really interesting takeaway from the research, which was 71% of consumers that had not gone paperless said that they would do so if the company provided a more engaging digital experience. And that's like the “big aha,” which is if we're creating better experiences, we're improving customer experience, but we're also achieving these operational goals of reducing print and mail and otherwise.   Consumers Looking for a More Engaging Digital Experience   Me: Amazing. So, you said that consumers were looking for a more engaging digital experience, could you share with us maybe one or two things that you think a company could employ or put in place to make their digital experience more engaging?   Matt shared that one of the weakest links of many companies' communication strategy, and again, through his lens, right, so those that are sending a bill or a statement, is that bill ready or statement ready notification.   So, think of the banks, the insurance companies, the telecommunications companies, utilities that you work with, they'll send you that note that just says, “Your statement's ready, click here to view and access.”   And sometimes it doesn't look anything like the rest of the brand that they've invested heavily in, it's a monthly communication. So sometimes it's the most frequent touchpoint that I have with that company, is this this generic email.   And one of the things that they do with clients, there are two approaches. One is an enhanced email where they're able to deliver more content directly within the email. So, instead of just saying it's ready, let me provide some value that directionally shows you how you did this month versus last or things to think about or other actions they're hoping you'll take.   Or they can redirect you to a microsite. So, instead of having to go back to the portal and log into the website, that way, you can authenticate through the email and get the full details in a microsite or a personalized experience that's specific to that statement or bill that he's asking you to look at.   Organizations Looking to Put Digital as part of Their Strategy – How do They Bridge That Gap as People Still Want Human Interaction   Me: And what are your thoughts on organizations, because digital is definitely I know it's been accelerated, I would say 10 times since the pandemic because organizations who weren't even fully digital or were looking to put digital as part of their strategy definitely had to do some quick acceleration because of the fact that we were all stuck at home. And of course, this was the only way that they could ensure that there was some continuity of business with their clients. But let's say you use digital, I'm all for digital, I believe that it's really important, technology is great.   But I do also believe that you should make yourself accessible if I do need to speak to a live human being. And I find that sometimes, the companies, they take on these technology tools, and when they take the technology tools on, and hopefully the technology should help you. So, for example, let's say I wanted to reach out to my utility company, and they have this chatbot on your website. And the chatbots name is let's say, Ella, I say, “Hi, Ella.” And Ella is able to answer very standard questions. But of course, because I know Ella can't answer me, I'm going to say to Ella, automatically, please connect me to a representative. So, she can transfer the call to somebody, the conversation to somebody who can actually help me. But that in itself doesn't work very well, because nobody actually is able to be connected to. And when you try to call them on the phone, you're not able to get through to them, because you're on hold for very long periods of time, 53 minutes, 60 odd minutes.   How do they bridge that gap? Because people I think still want human interaction!   Matt sated absolutely. And that's the challenge that he's seeing now. It's coming through in the research that they're doing and some of the client discussions, which is that the jump to embrace the technology from you could say it's customer experience led, oftentimes it's cost cutting led, there's an operational savings to implementing that chatbot.   Hopefully, that there is a balance that there is the improved customer experience of getting something answered quickly, like, “Where should I mail my bill to or what are your hours of operation?” Or those types of things that somebody might get value out of the chatbot.   But your comment about that hold time, where you then go on the phone, and you have to listen to a rotating one minute message that keeps telling you go online, you can conduct everything there yet, that's where you started, and you weren't able to achieve what you needed so you came to the phone, but you still have that hour wait.   He thinks it does speak to the need to have the capability of flexing the staff. So, you might have your full-time utility staff, and then you can tap into a third party that might charge you a bit of a premium, but they can help you during those surge times as well.   App, Website or Tool that Matt Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business   When asked about online resources that he cannot live without in his business, Matt stated that he would say it is the Voice of Customer Research Tool that they use. And it is so efficient to be able to go in and get, he wouldn't call it real time feedback, actually, he can do real time if he sets it up that way.   But if he's looking to that, a new concept, or go into a client meeting prepared with feedback from their customer base, so it's not just, “Here's what we're hearing from generic surveys but here's what some of your customers said about you. And I know that you know a lot of this already, but we just wanted to come prepared to the meeting.”   It's such a valuable tool in that way. So, whether it's AB testing, or a quick poll or survey, or getting feedback on a new concept or design, it can be a really valuable way of bringing data and analytics to the discussion with the client or to make a more robust solution if they're building something on their own.   What Matt is Really Excited About Now!   Matt shared that Broadridge is a pretty large company, they have 14,000 Associates across 21 countries, they also support a lot of clients. So, they have actually sent 7 billion communications a year on behalf of their clients. So, that results in a little bit of practicing what you preach.   So, they have a client success team at Broadridge and he's a member of the client satisfaction and engagement work stream and in that work stream, they're gathering perspective from their clients about what Broadridge does well, where they can be a better partner, how they should be thinking about their products or services, their technology offerings going forward. And that's all in the hopes of best positioning themselves as their partners of the future.   So, they encourage their clients to do that voice of customer research to make sure that they're taking a design thinking approach and a customer first approach to the way that they support their clients and consumer.   In many cases, they're doing the same within their organization, he thinks it's incredibly important to always keep that in perspective that you need to have your finger on the pulse of what's happening within your organization, the trends that are influencing outside forces, and then ultimately, how that can help better position you to be a better partner going forward.   Where Can We Find Matt Online   Website – www.broadridge.com LinkedIn – Broadridge Communications Consulting Twitter - @Broadridge Twitter - @AskMattSwain LinkedIn – Matt Swain Podcast – Reimagining Communications with Matt Swain   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Matt Uses   When asked about quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Matt stated that it's funny, as Yanique was asking the question, he had all these quotes just going through his head and the one that kept kind of pushing its way to the front was, “Do no harm.” And he thinks the do no harm approach is a really critical one, especially when you're thinking with a customer service lens or a customer experience lens, that if you can live by do no harm mantra, he thinks you're going be in a good position.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Dr. Anna Harrison is a top ranked Digital Technology Advisor, Product Expert and Author. Anna's work has helped New Zealand's best exporting and emerging brands create strategic and measurable plans to accelerate growth in new markets. Supported by successes across Europe, Asia, and the USA, Anna's work will help you remove your reliance on luck in the future success of your brand.   Questions   We always like to give guest the opportunity to kind of just share a little bit about their journey in their own words. Your book Digital Brand Romance, could you tell us a little bit about the book? Could you explain to our audience what customer expectations are versus what customer satisfaction is? Could you define for our listeners what a promise is? So, that dovetails us nicely into the core of your book is based on the ADORE Process. Could you take our listeners through what that process is and what are the milestones in the journey of that process? Could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you. What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Where can listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track?   Highlights   Anna's Journey   Anna stated that we are in for a treat. So, probably the best way to describe her journey is that it is non-standard and very nonlinear. She's lived on four continents and done a whole bunch of different things. And probably if you look back across the last sort of two decades of work, the only common thread amongst it all is that she's done interesting things and she's worked with great people, and that really is something that drives her and motivates her to seek out new challenges and look for different things. So, loosely speaking, she's worked in product design and product development, started in IT and so back in technology, work a lot with customer experience, and the drivers that help people to make choices and help brands to sell more stuff to loyal customers.   What is Your Book Digital Brand Romance About?   Me: So, our podcast is all about Navigating the Customer Experience. As you can imagine, when your email came across my attention, and I saw that you wrote this book called Digital Brand Romance: How to Create Lasting Relationships in a Digital World, I said to myself, this sounds very interesting and then I read a little bit more and it really got me intrigued. And so, I'm sure just as how I was intrigued, our listeners will be just as intrigued about your book. So, could you tell us a little bit about the book?   Anna stated that Navigating the Customer Experience just to sort of jump out and big picture, it's her passion, it's what she thinks about at 3:00 am in the mornings. So, lots of mutual interest and overlap and she's excited to share some of the things she's learned in her life with our audience today.   So, Digital Brand Romance, it's the combination of about a life's work so to say, and it looks at the factors that influence us as human beings and propel us to be loyal to a brand or not. And the cool thing about the book is that it breaks all of that down into really easy steps. And she thinks if we look at digital experiences and customer experience, and all of that, and it's all in a digital space, very often we get a little bit scared, and we think, “Oh my God, what do we know about this space?” And we kind of forget that always at the other end of the computer, the person buying your pair of shoes, or the person buying the handbag that you're selling, or the SaaS product that you're selling is a human.   And as humans, we form relationships, and we make decisions in really predictable ways. And so, we remember this when we have relationships with other people in real life but as soon as we go to digital, we just forget everything we learned and we make things very transactional in our digital spaces, and we just hard sell the consumers.   And then we wonder why things are not working and why most of our marketing budget is being spent on Google AdWords and our conversion rates are super low, like 1% or 2%.   So, the book really explores what are the levers that we can pull to help us understand how people make decisions. And then how do we apply that to our digital assets, like websites, like email marketing campaigns, like our sales process, to really build strong relationships and a loyal customer base.   What Customer Expectations Are Versus What Customer Satisfaction Is   Me: Now, one of the things that came across my attention when I was reviewing your book, I like the fact that you spoke about customer expectations, you spoke about customer satisfaction, and you spoke about why they were very different. Could you explain to our audience what customer expectations are versus what customer satisfaction is?   Anna stated that it's an interesting distinction here and when we think about customer experience, this is an interesting study that was done by Forbes a few years ago. So, Forbes interviewed a whole bunch of brands. And they said, “Hey, how would you rate your customer experiences?” And 80% of the brands said, “They're excellent, they're awesome, we're doing a great job, our customers are happy.” They interviewed those brands, customers, and only 8% of people said that they were really satisfied with the customer experience. And so, that's a really big kind of discrepancy there. Most brands think they're providing great experiences, and most customers think they are not getting a great experience.   And so, this is the difference between those two things is customer satisfaction, and satisfaction; it's a very personal and subjective thing, she may satisfied with something, whereas someone listening to this podcast might say, “No, that's terrible, I'm very dissatisfied with exactly the same thing.” And so, understanding customer satisfaction and how we can affect it is really the most powerful lever that we have in curating experiences for our customers.   So, to answer the question succinctly, satisfaction is the difference between what you expect and what you receive, or what you perceive of the experience. So, if you're expecting to wait in line for a meal for half an hour, and you get your table 15 minutes in, you're going to be delighted, you're going to be like, “Wow, this is fantastic. I was expecting to wait half an hour, and we're in early.”   Whereas conversely, if you're expecting to get seated at a restaurant straight away, and they make you wait 15 minutes, you're going to be very, very dissatisfied. And so, the same exact experience is delivered by the provider, you get seated in 15 minutes. But in one case, you're satisfied, and you're delighted, because your expectations were that it could be longer. And then the other case, you really disappointed because your expectations were that it would be shorter.   And so, as a brand, and this is where all your energy can be very effective if focused right is, all you can do is set your customers' expectations at the right level and through that you affect their satisfaction. That might be a bit too textbook nerdy, so she can give some examples if you prefer.   Me: Yeah, I think an example would be good to kind of just cement it for the audience so that they really understand. I got to reading the theory part of it totally and I thought it was a brilliant definition. I just really wanted you to share that, but if you could give us an example, that would be even greater.   Anna shared that there are tons of examples. So, let's say you buy something online. And she bought a bar fridge recently. So, she bought a bar fridge, and it said it will be delivered in two days and so, her expectations are that in two days' time the bar fridge will arrive. And then she got a message saying, “Please schedule your delivery.” And the only dates available were next week. So, 7 days from when she bought it, not two days. So, straightaway, she's like, “Hey, I'm not happy with this, because I was expecting, and you told me that the fridge would be delivered in two days.” So, the only change that needs to happen there is that the brand selling the fridge should just tell her that the fridge won't be available for a week or perhaps even 10 days. And then her expectations are set at the right place, and she's delighted with the outcome.   Me: Yeah, I suppose it's kind of like when we train our employees in organizations, and we'll say that we should under promise and over deliver. And one of the things that I think impacts customer expectations greatly is what we communicate. And sometimes what we communicate - it's not the truth, or I don't know. Sometimes I think organizations communicate information that is incorrect intentionally, like it is their intention to exceed the customers' expectations. So, they give them a reasonable time in their mind but then, when the actual experience is realized, what was communicated and what actually occurred, they're not correlating.   Anna stated that that's an excellent example. And to dig a little bit deeper into that, she thinks setting your customers' expectations that are realistic or perhaps a level under which you know you can over perform is a really good strategy, with a little asterix on that, as long as you're doing that in an authentic way. Because consumers are smart and as soon as your consumer feels that you're trying to deceive them, that opens another can of worms, they're going to run for the hills because no one likes the feeling that they're being lied to.   However, as a brand, you have the ability to authentically communicate and to deliver information and this is something that's super interesting that there was a lot of research done in the 80s by Don Norman, if you know him, he's like one of the godfathers of design and have written amazing books over the years. But what came out of his research was that people are really open to changing their expectations when you provide them with authentic information.   So, coming back to our restaurant example, if she's waiting in line for a table, and she's expecting it will take a couple of minutes, but it's going to be 15. If the restaurant gives her authentic and clear information as to why it will be 15 minutes, and then perhaps a gesture to compensate her for my trouble, that negative experience or what could have been a negative experience actually shifts to being a really positive experience.   So, with the fridge, if someone simply sends an email and says, “We're really sorry, we typically try to deliver things in two days. But you've had public holidays and long weekends in Australia and so that's pushed out delivery times out, and it'll be a week, very sorry.”   That information, when it's communicated authentically has the power to reset her expectations as a consumer. And so, it's not about getting it perfect every time as a brand, you don't have to get it right every time.   It's like parenting; we're often so hard on ourselves when we do something kind of not quite right by our kids. But you can make it right, you can have an authentic conversation and provide the information with clarity and with transparency and that will have a really powerful effect and reset your customers' expectations so they can still have a really good experience, even when it falls short of what they originally expected.   What is a Promise?   Me: Another great insight that I took from reviewing your book was there's a point in the book where you say the only reason anyone buys anything is to make their life better, which I suppose is almost the equivalent of people go into businesses to solve a problem. Most businesses were created with the intention of solving somebody's problem, whatever it is that your business solves. But what really intrigued me further to what you said in terms of making their lives better, is that the challenge to sell more reduces it down to two things showing the buyer that you're going to make their life better and delivering on your promise.   Now, could you define for our listeners what a promise is because I've been through many different customer service trainings in different industries, and I find that people are not clear on what a promise is. And they don't realize that you don't actually have to say the word I promise for the customer to view it as a commitment that you're making to fulfill something that they're requesting.   Anna stated that is such a great question and such an interesting pathway to explore. So, a promise is certainly not a contract. So, without even whether you explicitly and overtly know that you're making a promise to a customer or not, you are even if they don't sign a contract with you.   So for example, things like if you think about someone coming to your website for the very first time, in the first 10 seconds, that site visitor gets a sense of what your brand promise is, and that's made up of a few ingredients, it's made up of the styling on your website, your choice of imagery, your choice of font, your choice of colour, your logo, your hero value proposition tagline, all of those things combined into effectively, very quickly delivering a snapshot of what your brand promise is.   So maybe to correlate this to an example we'll all be familiar with. When you meet someone in person for the very first time, your subconscious mind processes a whole vast range of variables and you make a snap judgement, you go, “Yeah, this person is the kind of person that I would like to have a conversation with and maybe if that goes well, we'll go out for a coffee and maybe we could be friends.” Or “This person is just creepy; I'm going to run the other way. You know what I'm not having that this, a cup of coffee is not in our future.” And so, your subconscious mind is really good at doing that when we meet people in real life. And whether we think about it or not, we do exactly the same thing when we see a brand in a digital space.   And so, the brand promise is really the combination of all of those things and when you start looking for it, you'll notice it. So, when you go to a brand like Porsche, the imagery on the site, the particular choice of fonts and colours and the logo design, all look like a very expensive and exclusive brand. When you go to something like Kia, it's a much more approachable brand and this is all done through very subtle things like fonts and colours and the brand promise.   She works with high growth brands in Australia and out of New Zealand, and where they often will spend a lot of time and it's an easy thing to talk about, and a hard thing to execute on, is refining the value proposition. And so, that value proposition is the explicit articulation of how you're going to make someone's life better. And she finds where brands often get stuck; they get stuck in two ways.   One is that they think about the features of their product and don't recognize that features don't make someone else's life better. No one has a pair of Jimmy Choo heels because they have a high heel stiletto on them, they buy those heels, because of how those heels will make them feel, and how they will be perceived when they own that particular item.   And so, we forget this when we design our websites, and when we design our electronic marketing campaigns, and social media campaigns and so on, and we talk about features instead of what is the feeling? How really do you make someone's life better? She doesn't choose Skype or Zoom because they have a particular telephonic service with some grade of how fast they transmit her voice. She doesn't even know the details. So, she doesn't know what the technical specs for Zoom.   She chooses Zoom because it's easy to use and she can click one button and connect with someone on the other side of the world. And so, Apple is probably an amazing example of at scale when we first stopped talking about features and started talking about how the product makes our life better. And so, to come back to the original question, what is the brand promise that we make? It's all the subconscious things that someone will experience in the first 10 seconds on your website and that's made up of fonts and styling and colours and imagery, and also your value proposition that you articulate in that hero part of your website.   What is the ADORE Process and the Milestones in the Journey of That Process?   Me: So, that dovetails us nicely into the core of your book is based on the ADORE Process. Could you take our listeners through what that process is and what are the milestones in the journey of that process?   Anna stated that the ADORE Process and a few people have asked her what does ADORE stand for. And again, she's like; actually, it stands for nothing. But in technology, everyone needs an acronym and so here we go, we've got an acronym called ADORE.   So, the ADORE Process looks exactly at how we form relationships as humans. So, as soon as she walks you through it, she'll be able to map that to, “Oh, yeah, that's exactly how I form relationships with anyone I meet in real life.” And it translates it into milestones which we can affect and tune in digital, and also milestones where you can measure the performance for your particular brand against each of the milestones.   And the milestones and there is six of them. The very first one is zero seconds. So, zero seconds is simply the opportunity to have a site visitor come to your website. So loosely speaking, it's all of your marketing activities, all of your social media, everything that you do to drive a stranger to your website, the moment that they land on your website, that's zero seconds.   Then that first impression moment is the first 10 seconds that they're on your site and this is where they make a snap judgement, whether you like the fact or not people make snap judgments and they'll decide whether they're going to spend more time exploring your brand and getting to know your brand, or whether they're going to go to the next tab, and your closest competitor is always only ever in the next tab and sort of say, “No thanks, this isn't the brand for me.” So, 10 seconds is that first impression sort of moment, first date, if you like.   And another thing which she often sees when she works with brands is that they want to tell you their entire life story on that first date. You're like, hang on, I'd never do that in real life. But how is it okay in digital, or they'll lead with something like a “Book a call right now,” and ideally one that pops up on the way upside the moment that you land there and you're like, hang on a second. If she was meeting someone for the very first time and they went on a first date, and she said to the person sitting across from her, “Hey, you seem kind of nice. Do you want to move in and have seven kids together?”   So again, in person, we know how to moderate this, we know that relationships take a certain cadence, and we don't violate those things in real life. But we do on a website, we're perfectly happy to put a pop up that says, book a call right now, the minute that she lands on a website she's never been to, like, “Hang on a minute, let me get to know your brand first. And once I know your brand, a little bit better than ask me that question.”   So, zero seconds, the arrival, 10 seconds is your first date, then three minutes, is that moment where someone has taken the time to actually get to know your brand a little bit more. So again, in human terms, it's probably that three to six month mark, where you're like, “Yeah, we've got to know each other a little bit, it feels about right, maybe now we'll have a conversation about moving in together.” But don't do that on the first date. And so, that three minute mark is that moment where someone has explored your brand. At this point, maybe they've looked at your features. At this point, maybe they've looked at, can I make this work for me. And if you've positioned those first few elements on your website in the right order, and in the right way, and you're respecting how someone forms a relationship with your brand, the very natural next step is for them to want to sign up, they'll want to try your product or service, they'll want to perhaps buy the first T shirt that you're selling, they're ready for that next step.   And so, that sign up moment, it's like moving in together, it's a definite sign of commitment. And it's super, super important to take note of that, because your customer is now saying, “I am making an active commitment to your brand.” And so, when you've got that, you know for sure you've got someone who's interested, someone who's spent the time getting to know you, they're a captive audience. The rest is easy, assuming that you've got a really good product or service, which most brands she works with have amazing products and services, and they are just not sure how to develop that relationship with their customers.   And so, to give an example, she had a brand that she was working with, and they literally after the signup process, they were losing 95% of their people. So, they were spending all the money on marketing, all of their branding and their brand promise and the way they told their story was all done super well, they were getting a lot of customers to sign up each month. And then it was like a 95% drop off. And it was like, “Oh my God, what's happening here.” And they changed a couple of really small things. And so, if you look at this part in the book, it will actually give you tangible tips for what to look for when things are going wrong, and what you can change. And this particular brand, they increase their revenue by $50,000 a month by changing a couple of buttons. So, these things do make a difference. And whether consciously or subconsciously, we do respond to digital, and to the formation of relationships with brands and digital, much like we do in real life when it's a human and a human interacting.   But we've got zero seconds, the arrival, we've got 10 seconds, which is your first date, we've got three minutes, which is where you've told your brand story, sign up, which is your first moment of active kind of commitment. And then after that it's easy street, all you then need to do is build into your product the right levers to create an upgrade, to create a repeat buy, to get the customer to pull more money out of their wallet and experience more and more of your product over time and so that's upgrade. And then ultimately where you want to drive your customers to if your growth strategy is based on forming relationships, and that loyal customer base is to get referrals. And referrals are really important because a referral from someone that you trust shortcuts that whole customer journey by about 60%. And so, people will take shortcuts on the getting to know you part and go straight to sign up if the recommendation comes from a trusted party.   So, that's basically the steps and in the book, in the ADORE Process part, which is the middle part of the book, it shows you for each of those steps, how do you measure success? So which of your website metrics do you look at to see whether you're performing well or not performing well. And that's important because when you make a change to your website, or you hire an agency to make some changes, you want to have tangible and objective proof that whatever updates you made are actually creating a positive effect on your conversion rate so that you're getting a good return on the investment that you're putting in to developing those digital assets that you own.   App, Website or Tool that Anna Absolutely Can't Live Without in Her Business   When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Anna stated that she was thinking about this the other day, and really, honestly, the thing she can't live without is probably email but that's not going to be much help because everybody uses email. So, something she's gotten into recently is a product called Shortform. And Shortform gives you a summary of some of the best books on the planet and the summaries are just fantastic. So, if you're starting out and you haven't read any books at all, Shortform might not be for you but if you've read a bunch of books, and you've got an interest in business books, or how to grow businesses, and you've read a few things, Shortform is excellent because it fills in the blanks, and really tells you very quickly what the difference between this book is, and other things, which you may have read.   So that's something she enjoys and they're always adding new books into their library there. And so, in like 10 minutes, you can get the gist of someone's amazing new ideas without reading a whole book so it's a little bit of a hack and that's something she's enjoying. Other than that, she listens to podcasts, typically podcasts that are recommended by other people. So again, showing that once we get a good recommendation from someone, we do shortcut that whole decision making process and just go straight to, “Yes, this is the thing for me.” Probably, that email and Shortform would be her indispensable tools at the moment.   Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Anna   When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Anna shared that she's definitely been very impacted by books she read early in her career and these would be the classics, things like Rich Dad, Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not by Robert T. Kiyosaki, the idea that things that you buy are either an asset or they're not an asset and the idea that you can actually design your life so that you're not dependent on a paycheck. So, that was super influential for her.   Other than that, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Revised Edition by Robert Cialdini, she thinks if you're an entrepreneur, and you're designing product, and you're selling product, and you have an interest in understanding how do people make decisions and how do I, what levers do I have to influence them to make the decision that I want them to make? This is indispensable. And so, Robert Cialdini wrote the first edition of the book in the early 80s and it's still true today. And it's a fantastic book.   Other than that, Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert is a really, really beautifully written book, and it personifies ideas and it talks about concept that as people, we inhabit these human forms, but ideas are these organisms that float around us, and an idea might come and tap you on the shoulder and if you're not ready for it, it's going to go ahead and find some other human hosts that's going to bring it to life. And so, when an idea pops into your head, it's really up to you to take that idea and nurture it and grow it into something that becomes a business. And if you're not prepared to do that, don't be surprised that someone else halfway across the world seemingly has the same idea and brings it to life. So, she just thought it was a beautifully written and lovely book. Heaps of others, but those are probably her top three picks for the moment.   What Anna is Really Excited About Now!   Anna stated that the biggest thing that's happening for them at the moment is that they're taking Digital Brand Romance and they're converting that into a SaaS product called Rammp. And so, people love reading books, and so on, but what she finds is that most people want a solution that is automated and that they can deploy to their business that will work for them when they're focusing on the other important things in their business.   And so, Rammp does that, it takes the principles that are outlined in the book, those six milestones and it connects to your website statistics and then it will show you each month what are the most impactful and lowest hanging fruit that you can address to improve the relationship with your customers, and thereby increase your conversion rates. So they're bringing that to life. If you look at the website today, it's still a landing page but they should be launching that at the end of June. So, that's definitely a very, very exciting thing that's happening.   The other very exciting thing, which is possibly only exciting to her is that she has finally found another gym that she's excited to go to because she's been in fitness limbo for the last couple of years, just kind of on maintenance and alive, she's really looking for something that's going to be inspiring and she did that this morning. So, she's super stoked about that.   Where Can We Find Anna Online   LinkedIn – Anna Harrison Website – www.rammp.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Anna Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that she tend to revert to, Anna stated a 100% and you could see her right now, you'll see that it's written on a card and stuck to her computer and the quote is, “Merely do the work.” Some days you're super motivated and you're excited and everything is going really well, on those days it's easy to do the work.   But some days, whatever, the stars have not lined up and you might feel a bit naa and you're like, “Why am I even doing this, there's so many competitors that are better, etc, etc.” And on those days, just put your head down and do the work, you started the business that you're doing for good reasons, there is no one else in the world who is more passionate and better position to be working on what you're working right now. And on the tough days, just put your head down and merely do the work. Life and business and pretty much everything we do is a marathon, it's just a marathon and you're doing a marathon, it's just put one foot in front of the other and eventually, things brighten up, you got your inspiration back and you finish the race, or the run, or whatever it is that you were working on. So merely do the work.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links Digital Brand Romance: How to Create Lasting Relationships in a Digital World by Dr. Anna Harrison Rich Dad Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! by Robert T. Kiyosaki Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Revised Edition by Robert Cialdini Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Should auld acquaintance be forgot And never brought to mind? Me: Yeah... some of them. It's time to celebrate the end of a crazy year! In this episode, Maurice recaps his fave moments with the Category Is... Best of 2021 List! Best Music Best TV Best Movie Best Viral Moment Best Messy Scandal Best Comeback Best Slay And a surprise choice for Person of the Year!!! Share your thoughts: categoryispod@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/categoryispod

Shep Hyken is a Customer Service and Experience Expert and the Chief Amazement Officer of Shepherd Presentations. He is a New York Times bestselling author and has been inducted into the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame for a lifetime achievement in the speaking profession. Shep works with companies and organizations who want to build loyal relationships with their customers and employees. His articles have been read in hundreds of publications, and he is the author of five books. He is also the creator of The Customer Focus™, a customer service training program which helps clients develop a customer service culture and loyalty mindset.   Questions   Your new book is called I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again. And so, could you share a little bit about the book, what inspired you to write this book? How can this book help organizations? What are the core pillars or themes that the book is built on? Just give us in your own words what it's all about? You mentioned in the book, the concept of being nice. The behavior or personality of a customer service employee versus the technical side, I wanted you to expand on that for us on what is the importance of that? And what does it really mean to be nice? In the book you also mentioned to create real customer loyalty, we first need to understand the difference between loyalty programs and marketing programs. Can you explain to our audience what you mean by that? A lot of organizations clearly having to pivot over the last year and a half since the pandemic, trying to look at their customer journey, trying to incorporate digital even more, even those organizations that didn't have a digital as part of their whole process. What are your thoughts on organizations looking to do all those things, but still create that amazing experience? Can you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business? Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people? Where can listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote it kind of helps to get you back on track or get you refocused?   Highlights   Shep's Journey   Me: So, I'm going to piggyback off of your last statement, “It's great to be back” because your new book is called “I'll be back.” And so, could you share a little bit about the book, what inspired you to write this book? How can this book help organizations? What are the core pillars or themes that the book is built on? Just give us in your own words what it's all about?   Shep shared that the full title is, I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again. And he joked about the accent, but whenever people say I'll be back, they kind of tried to do that Terminator, Arnold Schwarzengger impression.   And originally, when he started writing the book, he hadn't even thought about that, the tie into the Terminator movie and then about three hours in the starting his outline, he's going “Yeah, I'll be back. I bet I can play off of that.” So, while it really doesn't have anything to do with the Terminator, he does mention it a few times and the goal is to get your customers to say, I'll be back and you want them to not only say it, you want them to actually do it.   So, there's all kinds of tips, tactics, ideas, and strategies just for the idea of getting your customers to come back and understanding the difference between repeat customers, loyal customers, how to create a more customer focused culture that delivers that experience that gets customers to come back, so it's really about that. And the really cool thing is, he believes, even with this crazy COVID variant going around, the Delta, he gets the feeling that a lot of the world is starting to feel like they're coming back. So, there's a double message in there that he didn't even anticipate was going to happen.   The Concept of Being Nice: The Behavior or Personality of a Customer Service Employee Versus the Technical Side   Me: Now you mentioned in the book, the concept of being nice. The behaviour or personality of a customer service employee versus the technical side, I wanted you to expand on that for us on what is the importance of that? And what does it really mean to be nice?   Shep stated that being nice is a foundational concept and there's a story behind it that's pretty funny. The idea behind it was, he was asked to do a speech and he was the closing keynote speaker, the last speaker of the day, he had to end exactly on time, because these people had to go to another event and they were all being picked up by buses. So, his client said, no matter what happens, you finish on time.   And ultimately, the speakers ahead of him went longer and longer and longer, and by the time it was his time to speak, there was two minutes left, not the 40 minutes that he was supposed to do. So, he said to the client, “Don't worry, I've got this.” And he gave him this weird look but he walked on stage and the first thing he said was, “Thank you for that wonderful round of applause. I realized that we have to be out of here in less than two minutes. And I promised everybody, the client especially that that would happen. So, we're going to start over and I'm going to give you the shortest customer service speech in the world.”   So, he's introduced quickly, the applause is here, he's now standing center stage. Are you ready? Here it goes. Be nice. Then he started to walk off stage and the audience, he stopped halfway through and he goes, “I know it's pretty easy, isn't it.” But think about it for just a moment, he's still got about a minute or so left.   So let me tell you about being nice. Being nice is foundational, it's fundamental. If you're in a restaurant and they have great food, but the server is so mean to you, you're never coming back, it's that simple. But I want you to realize that being nice isn't always easy, it's simple, but it's not easy.   And you need to think about it because there's going to be times that you're going to be distracted that you're going to be busy that a customer or an internal customer, one of your own team members is going to come and talk to you and you're going to be interrupted, and you're going to be a little snappy, you can't do that.   Foundationally, you must be nice. Now, nothing's changed. He always joked about nothing's changed in customer service and they talked about that in the book. But really, that's a fundamental, people don't want to be treated the wrong way, they want to feel appreciated, they want to feel like it's a place that wants to do business with them.And if you aren't at least nice, well, think about you don't want to put yourself behind just because you weren't doing something as simple as being friendly and nice.   And by the way, they surveyed over 1000 consumers, and one of the most important top three qualities they want in dealing with somebody related to the areas of customer service, sales, whatever, is that they want somebody number one that's knowledgeable and number two, that's nice.   Me: So nice is like, good morning. Nice is, how are you doing today? Nice is the softer side of your personality.   Shep agreed and stated that it's just a soft skill and it is exactly that it is a skill. And sometimes you need to work on that skill, you need to be remembered, and it's a little bit of a smile, it's a little bit of a friendly attitude. And when you combine those together, that's what your customers want and expect from you. Doesn't that sound so simple. And by the way, they don't spend a lot of time on this in the book, but it's important, he talked about foundation and really what is the underpinning of all the experience you want your customers to have. And even if you're in the business of an eCommerce company that it's almost all automated, you still have to create this feeling that you're friendly, it's the images, it's the simplicity of how the website works and if they ever do, in fact, call you, if the customer ever does call you, it's how they're treated. In a B2B environment, maybe business to business, they say is different than B2C and the reality of it is, it's not much different today, because your B2B customers are comparing you to the best service experiences they've ever had. And that could include a retail store, it could include Amazon, it could include a restaurant, it doesn't matter, it's the best service they've had and that's what they expect from everybody.   Me: What if you have an organization where it's just not in the character of the person that's interfacing with the customers to be nice. Generally speaking, in their own personal lives, they're just not nice people, they have a very unpleasant countenance, they're not very welcoming, or approachable, and you feel very uncomfortable around them because of their demeanour and your facial expressions. How do you get that person to be nice?   Shep stated that first of all, he wouldn't have hired that person. So, part of creating a culture that's customer focus is making sure the right people are on the bus and that means you've got to hire right. Now, there are some people, they can still be nice, but they're not cut out for being on the front line, great. Put them in another job somewhere else in the organization, they still have to be nice. But again, being introverted may be awkward for somebody, and we don't want to put anybody in that situation.   But he'll also add that if you've got somebody in the warehouse and their job is to pack boxes with product based on what the customer orders, and by the way, this is a little bit off of the concept of being nice, but that person has a great responsibility to the customer. Because if they receive that box, and it wasn't packed properly and the items inside are broken, or whatever, that's going to reflect on the entire company.   Now back to this employee that never sees the customer in the warehouse, in the accounting department, whatever. If you are going to create a culture that's focused on the customer, there has to be a personality to that culture and the people who are hired have to be in alignment with that personality.   Now, again, being nice means friendly, it doesn't mean overly friendly or overly gregarious, it is really about the fundamental concept of just being friendly and nice to your colleagues and your customers, not overly so that's why even behind the scenes, they still have to have a little bit of something going on there, they just don't have to be quite as dedicated to it as perhaps somebody on the true front line.   The Difference Between Loyalty Programs and Marketing Programs   Me: Now in the book you also mentioned to create real customer loyalty, we first need to understand the difference between loyalty programs and marketing programs. Can you explain to our audience what you mean by that?   Shep stated that let's just take frequent flyer miles for a moment, they call that a loyalty program, the airlines do and the reality is it's a miles program, it's a points program. In other words, it's a marketing program. In a sense, it's kind of a discount, you buy enough airline tickets, and you fly in the airline long enough, you get a free flight, just like if you go to a restaurant and they punch your card five times, the sixth sandwich might be free. So, his question is, and he doesn't know if Yanique fly a lot or not, but I talked to people all the time he goes, if the entire airline industry were to take away the miles program, would you still fly on the same airline that you're currently spending most of your time on? Because most people will try to accumulate miles on one particular airline and he's surprised it's split. He hasn't done a formal survey, but he's going to say it's approximately 50/50 from the people that say, “Oh, I'd stay here.” or “You know what, I'd fly a different airline.” And it's that simple. The reason they're staying on the airline is because of the points, not because of the airline itself, take that away, and it's gone.   Now, the other thing they talked a little bit about related to repeat business versus loyal business, is that sometimes-repeat business is due to maybe it's a better price.   “Why do you love doing business with them? They have the lowest prices?”   “What if you found somebody with a lower price? Well, then I'd go do business with them.”   So, the customers loyal to the price, not the company. And the same thing with convenience.   “Why do you go to them? Well, they're the closest one.”   “What happens if a competitor moves closer? Well, I'll probably do business with them.”   So, what you need to do in those situations, if price is how you're competing, or convenience is how you're competing, make sure you deliver a level of service. And when given the opportunity, try to connect with that customer on some kind of an emotional level, make them want to not only do business with you, because of whatever reason they have in their mind, but also make them like doing business with you.   Me: Yeah, I totally agree. So, you're saying then that most loyalty programs or that they dub as loyalty programs are actually marketing programs. So, what really makes a customer loyal, as you said, is that emotional connection.    Shep shared that it often is, he will add that there are certain programs, like Nike has a loyalty program, it's actually a membership program, it has really nothing to do with points, it has to do with, “Hey, you're a customer and we're going to give you great information about what you're interested in.” So, if he just bought some golf shoes from Nike, and he's never bought golf shoes from them and since that time, he's received a couple of really interesting emails, not just about product, but about how he can improve his golf game, and what the new technology and the shoes are. And so, he learned about these things and he thinks to himself, they know who he is. But what they don't send him is they don't send him information on soccer shoes or football as you might call it in other parts of the world, because they know that's not something he's ever bought from them and he's never indicated in the interest. So, he considers that type of program more focused on gaining the customer in other ways than just giving them true incentives to buy. So, he thinks that's an important delineation between membership programs and marketing. Now, one other thought before we jump off of this is that some people refer to the Amazon Prime program as a loyalty program and he even thinks Amazon refers to it as the Prime membership program, not a loyalty program and if they do, it's okay. But here's what happens when you're willing to spend $120 a year and it might be $129 a year, you want to get your money's worth out of it so you're going to try to use them as often as possible. That's the idea is give them, the customer, a reason to come back and that's because you spent money with them and you want to make sure you get good value for that.   Organizations Looking to Incorporate Digital Even More But Still Create An Amazing Experience   Me: Now, the book also mentions, it piggybacks a little bit on some of your principles from your previous book, The Convenience Revolution, that was such an awesome book. And it talks about self-service, technology, subscription delivery, access and reducing friction. And I've seen a lot of organizations clearly having to pivot over the last year and a half since the pandemic, trying to look at their customer journey, trying to incorporate digital even more, even those organizations that didn't have digital as part of their whole process. And sometimes in doing that, it actually creates a lot of confusion and friction for the customer because there are so many steps that you have to take, and you're so frustrated and a lot of times you'd want to serve yourself but you can't, you have to end up reaching out to somebody either through their contact center, or even physically visiting their location. What are your thoughts on organizations looking to do all those things, but still create that amazing experience?   Shep shared that there's a lot going on there, he wrote an entire book on the concept of convenience and there's no way he couldn't reference this in the new book, because this is what drives repeat business is frictionless, easy, the company that's often easiest to do business with is the one that wins that means it makes price a little less relevant, so that may not be as important to the customer when they say, it's so easy, it's worth paying for.   And he'll give a quick example of this. Prior to the pandemic, when he wrote the book, by the way, The Convenience Revolution, in his mind it was somewhat of a breakthrough in the thought process, nobody had ever written a book about this. There was an author, actually two authors together wrote a book titled The Effortless Experience, but it was all about the getting customer support and making that easy. This is about everything related to your business, now back then it was breakthrough, then it became trendy and now it's become an expectation, especially with COVID.   So, he's thinking, well, that's the big change that's happened in this, so we've got to be more convenient. He doesn't spend a ton of time on it, he has two short chapters on number one, the self-service route, because that's what you're talking about is going digital and getting your customers to think digital first. How can I get the information that I need to have without having to talk to somebody, without having to wait on hold? And for the company, it's how can I make sure that our people are handling customer issues that are of a higher level rather than dealing with things that are so simple like, can you check on my order? Can you see if it was shipped? Can you see if the payment went through?   Insurance companies and banks, financial institutions are really making it easy for you to check balances and make claims and that type of thing. So by going digital first, if you do it right, you create this great, easy frictionless experience and when there's a problem, you need to make it seamless for the customer to transition to the human to human connection to get their help. And that's where a lot of companies fail, they actually fail in two areas.   Number one, they create a process that's not always intuitive to the customer and the good news is the design, the user experience, or the UX as they call it today. And that design is getting better and better and people are recognizing how easy it is.   Think about when you go on Netflix once you register and you're in how easy it is for you to find the different movies genres that you want okay. When you go to Amazon, the entire buying process, you have total control over and they make it so easy. So, they become like the poster children of what convenience and easy is about. And so, when you do that the right way, you create really a little bit more distance between you and your competition but he digress.   Back to what happened in the pandemic and why people are willing to pay for it. If you think about it, delivery is a great convenience. He used to have his food delivered from different restaurants, they never charge for it, once we got into the pandemic, they started charging. And he's not saying we're completely out of it, but we're out of it enough that everybody's back to somewhat business is normal like it used to be. And guess what, they're still charging, and nobody is complaining, they're willing to pay for convenience.   Last year, they did a study and they looked at over 1000 consumers and they found that, he believes it was 60%, this year was just a titch different, but it was around 60% of people were willing to pay more, they want a great service experience but they'll pay even more for convenience. And that number goes up to almost 90% when delivery is actually part of that convenience.   Me: I think a big part of it also, well at least for me personally is safety, with the pandemic and people are so concerned about being exposed, especially as we're clearly going through another wave a lot of countries are going to another wave now, people want to be safe. So if that means I can stay in the convenience of my home and place an order and it can be delivered and the only exposure I'm having is to physically come to the door and just exchange money or if I paid through the app and it's just to get the bag from the delivery person, then I'll definitely rate you higher because I feel safer and I think safety has been definitely something that customers look for that is included in the whole convenience, all because of the pandemic, at least I view it as important. If I don't feel safe in an environment, it's highly unlikely that I'm going to return to the business unless I absolutely have no choice.   Shep shared that 100% safety is of the utmost concern of some people, and you know what it's like, “I'm going to order it, set it at the front door and leave. I'll pick it up when they're gone and they're not there anymore.” But you're right and the digital experience that companies are creating that are making customers feel better about doing business with them, he thinks is a really important piece of building that trust and creating a connection. He might have been doing business the old way with somebody and they knock on the door, and they'd say, “Hello” but if the new way requires or his desire is to have that door stay closed, yet they create a system that allows him to still get everything done easily, he's still going to be appreciative that that company took the effort to make that happen.   Now, long term, you can't automate or digitize a personal relationship, you still need to create some type of connection. Just before they came on together and they're recording this, he got a call, he won't tell you the name of the airlines, but their initials are American Airlines, AA. And you know what they were doing, they were just calling to number one, say, “We saw that you flew last week and you've been flying a little bit more regular, we just want to thank you for that.” Every one of his flights is booked online, he put his boarding pass on his mobile phone. And other than dealing with flight attendants and people at the gate, he doesn't ever talk to anybody from American, they're losing that connection with him. So, what did they do? They picked up the phone and they made an outbound call just to check and say thanks for business, that's how you humanize the automated relationship.   Me: Amazing. And I'm happy you touched on that because that was actually a question I was going to ask because I get asked that question quite often, with technology and automation and artificial intelligence and chatbots and all of these things that companies are doing to enhance the customer experience. Do you feel that the human interaction is going to fade away?   And I always think, no, I think at the end of the day, human beings like to deal with human beings because at some point, that robot or automation can't answer your question. I've had the personal experience myself, it's like they're automated, they ask you a question, you log on, and they say, what's your name, and you put in your name, you put in your account number, and you tell him the issue that you're having and it seems like the robot is just regurgitating the same information to the point where I have to say, “I would like to speak with a representative.” Then it says, “I don't understand what you are saying.” then I change up how I say it, I say, “I would like to have an Agent.” And then it gets what I'm saying.   Shep shared that he gets it. And that's so frustrating and it should seamlessly take you there, there should be an easy way to get there. But that to your point, it's very difficult if all you are is a digital last company, you're not going to be able to compete with the people to figure out how to create the balance. And the magic happens in the balance and it's different from one industry to the next. And even from one company to the next but they figure it out.   App, Website or Tool that Shep Absolutely Can't Live Without in Him Business   When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Shep shared that that is a great question. He loves his travel apps, he travels so much, so it's very difficult. So, he's looking at his phone going, what is it that he can't live without? He loves the communication apps, he's on WhatsApp a lot and they do a Zoom. How about LastPass. LastPass, which is so important, he has a virtual workforce, and they all have access to different websites, yet they have no idea what his password is, he loves that.   Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Shep   When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Shep shared that one of the books that is probably his favorite aside from I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again by Shep Hyken and other books that he's written. He loves The Experience Economy: Work Is Theater & Every Business a Stage by Joe Pine and James Gilmore, it's one of the greatest books written on customer experience. And even though it was written over 20 years ago, and they did come out with an updated version, he believes that it is as relevant today as it ever was. So, love that book. He loves the Tom Peters book from the 1980s In Search of Excellence: Lessons from America's Best-Run Companies. And even though many of those companies aren't around, which is by the way is one of the reasons he likes it, it shows how the most excellent companies, some of them are out of business, some of them were bought out, you cannot ever rest on your laurels but he loves the lessons that it teaches. That's a great book. So, he loves The Experience Economy, probably number one business book in his choice.    What Shep is Really Excited About Now!   Shep stated that he knows he sounds like a broken record but the book just came out, I'll Be Back. So very excited about that. But you know what else? He has a report, it's called the 2021 ACA Report Achieving Customer Amazement.   He did the 2020 last year. So, the 2021 he was going to put out earlier this year, but he felt they were still so deep in the COVID dealings that he thought you know what? He wanted to wait. So, he waited until June to do the research and they just came out with the report. So, just go to his website, www.hyken.com and you'll see the link to get the report.   Me: Awesome. I will definitely be accessing that. I thought the content that you put out last year from the 2020 report and I shared it with a few of my clients, I thought it was really, really great. So, I'm happy that you have an updated one this year.   Shep shared that his favorite stat is, again, by the way, he mentioned a couple of these stats before where they interviewed the consumers. They asked, “Would you rather go to the dentist or call customer support?” 48% of the people said, “I'd rather go to the dentist.” So, it's a great report, it's free. And he thinks there's a lot of great information that would compel a company or an individual to say, you know what, if I don't deliver service, I'm going to lose my customers. This is a reason that I need to keep at the top of my game.   Where Can We Find Shep Online   Me: So, our guests, our listeners would have tapped into this episode when it's released and they are super pumped about your book, I'll Be Back. How to get customers to come back again and again, because I think that's what every business wants, not just to do a one-time sale, but to actually have their customers come back over and over again for their lifetime of that product or service that they're using. And so where can they find you online, they want to download this report, they want to tap into the book, they want to tap into your journey, see what you're up to? And just really be in touch with you. Where can they find you online?   Website – www.hyken.com YouTube – ShepTV   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Shep Uses   When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Shep shared that this is one that he have come up with on his own. And he doesn't know if he's ever shared this but “Bad days only last 24 hours.” And here's what happened. He took a daily pocket planner where you write out like what your plans are, it's a calendar. And instead of planning, he reflected at the end of each day, what happened today that was good, and on a weekday, it was business and personal and the weekend, it was pretty much just personal because he tries not to do too much business on the weekends. And he found that within a very short period of time, he realized that even on the worst days, good things happen. So, it was very, very motivational, inspirational, if you will. But it was really inspiring to realize that as bad as the bad day is, it's really not all that bad.   Me: True, very true. I do something very similar as well. But it's more like a gratitude journal, it's digital actually. I just like have a note, I use the Notes app on my devices a lot, it's so amazing. And you can lock the note if you don't want other people to access it if they're on your phone. But I'll type out 10 things that I'm grateful for that happened in that day. And sometimes I have more than 10, I'll end up writing like 15 or 18, or 20. But then there are other times that I really have to like dig deep and things that I think are simple, I really have to give thanks for and it makes me just realize that, as you said, even if things didn't go your way, or you didn't get the contract you were looking for, maybe you weren't feeling well, or you weren't able to accomplish certain goals that you had set for yourself, there are other things that happened that makes you feel good, especially when you give thanks for them, or show gratitude for them because it really goes a very far away.   Shep agreed and stated that he likes that. It's an attitude of gratitude and that's part of what his little journaling does and you've experienced that same thing.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners    Links   I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again by Shep Hyken The Experience Economy: Work Is Theater & Every Business a Stage by Joseph Pine II and James Gilmore In Search of Excellence: Lessons from America's Best-Run Companies by Tom Peters 2021 Achieving Customer Amazement Survey Report by Shep Hyken   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Shawnna Sumaoang: Hi, and welcome to the Sales Enablement PRO podcast, I'm Shawnna Sumaoang. Sales enablement is a constantly evolving space, and we’re here to help professionals stay up to date on the latest trends and best practices so that they can be more effective in their jobs. Today, I’m excited to have Malvina from Silverfin join us. Malvina, I’d love for you to introduce yourself, your role, and your organization to our audience. Malvina EL-Sayegh: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I am really excited to join you on the podcast today. My name is Malvina and I’m the Head of Sales Enablement within Silverfin. Silverfin is a SaaS, B2B company. It’s a startup scale-up disrupting the accountancy sector and the status quo that accountants are used to for the longest time. I’m heading up sales enablement at Silverfin. SS: Fantastic. Well, I’m so excited that you’re here. In fact, I heard your podcast, which is called #stayhuman, and in it, you discuss what it means to be a great salesperson and how to do so by focusing on the human side of sales. From your perspective, what does it mean to humanize sales and why is that necessary in today’s environment? ME: Yeah, that’s a really great question. I think sales has changed so much over the years. I mean, if you look at how sales was done even 10 years ago, it’s a completely different ball game today. The buyer or the prospective buyer just requires and needs so much more from the seller. Actually, in a lot of these deals in a lot of these organizations, you’re really acting more so like a consultant to them, rather than just a vendor and selling a solution. I am really passionate about being human within sales. What that really means is using the innate traits that we have within us. Those are things like empathy, communication, listening, and not focusing so much on the close. I think when salespeople focus so much on the numbers and hitting their quota for the quarter or for the year, it almost becomes a numbers game. What salespeople have to do is really remember that ultimately, we’re in a human-to-human type business. We’re dealing with individuals and it’s not that organizations buy from us, it’s usually individuals that buy from us. By really leveraging things like empathy, showing your empathy, making those good judgment calls, communicating effectively, listening, which is a huge one because salespeople have this tendency to potentially go on a rant and maybe not listen to what the other person is saying because we’re so eager to get our message across. But what salespeople really have to do is just take a step back, listen, and actively listen, which is challenging in itself, but really take a step back and remember that we’re dealing with other individuals, and for them buying is just as challenging as selling is for us. SS: It absolutely is, buying has become extremely difficult. Now, you mentioned some of the key human-centric skills like empathy, but why are those the skills that salespeople need to be successful today? ME: Yeah. I think if you look at the way that sales has changed and evolved over the years, back in the day, salespeople were just information givers in the sense that the information wasn’t available on the internet. If you wanted to research product, you had to ask around, you had to ask people who had the know-how. Nowadays, if you look at any buying process, actually by the time that the potential buyer interacts with you, they’re already more than 50% in the entire sales process, which means that they have already done their research. They know everything about your company, they have the facts, and oftentimes salespeople have to almost act as information checkers, or actually validating that the information that the prospect has found online is accurate. In order to really communicate and build that element of know, like, and trust, which is so important in sales because ultimately, we buy from people who we know, like, and trust. If you look at just those three elements, how can you effectively build on them and build that element of trust with your customer? You can do that by showing empathy, by really communicating with them, actively listening, asking the right questions and really taking a step back so that the best interest of the prospect is always in mind. I think salespeople sometimes forget that it’s not about us. It’s not about us selling a particular product or service. It’s not even about us hitting that potential number at the end of the quarter, even though that’s what we want to do. Ultimately, to really make that buying experience as enjoyable and useful for the prospect, you really need to bring out those human elements so that you can stand above and beyond other salespeople who potentially aren’t doing those things. SS: I love that. Now you mentioned that salespeople have to transition out of being information-based. You actually did an interview where you talked about the transition from being information givers to meaning makers, which I loved. In the midst of all the change that has occurred in the past year with the shift to virtual, and now we’re actually transitioning back into in-person or hybrid environments, how can salespeople help to create meaningful experiences for their customers during this time? ME: Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I think if we rewind the clock back to say a year, what is it a year and a half ago now when COVID really started, making that transition for a lot of salespeople from being able to meet customers in person to then having to do meetings fully remote was a huge game-changer. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of salespeople actually, struggled with that. You’re used to sitting in a room with someone, potentially walking to the conference room, grabbing a coffee, you’re able to read body language and potentially have slightly more meaningful conversation. When COVID happened and salespeople had to move to this fully remote environment, we had to be, or we still have to be a lot more in tune with what’s going on. We don’t see the full body; we don’t see the full person that we’re speaking to. I see everything basically from the waist up. We have to really look out and see what are the facial expressions? What’s the body language or even just the hands telling us? What’s the tone of voice? We have to be really in tune with what the prospect or potential customer is saying to us. I think if we look at meaning-makers, and why I think that’s so important, it goes back to what I said previously. In the past, salespeople were just giving out information. We were just talking about the features and then maybe linking them back to benefits. But everyone already today is well aware of the features of your product. I mean, they just have to go to the website, and they will have a whole list of the features and capabilities of your potential solution. I think the reason why salespeople play such a crucial role in this is because they are answering the question, which is, “so what’s in it for me?” Ultimately, that’s what the potential buyer wants to know. It’s not about the features, it's what’s in it for me, what does that mean, where is the value? You’re basically taking all this information that you have, the prospect has, and you’re really turning it into meaning for them. What does it mean in their particular situation? What does it mean for their business? How is that tying into the objectives, into the overall strategy of the organization? I think if you look at why people buy, it’s usually to align with that strategy, with that objective. What capabilities are they missing? The salesperson really comes in to add that meaning and tie in the capabilities to the overarching strategy of the organization. SS: Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. Now, I do want to for our audience pivot this a little towards the enablement lens. You wrote an article on LinkedIn where you talked about how many customers are just overwhelmed with all of the information that is out there and available. How can enablement help salespeople cut through the noise to provide value rather than just more information like you just were talking about. ME: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think what we have to realize collectively across any organization, whether you’re in a corporation, in a startup, or in a scale-up, is that our potential buyers, our potential customers, they don’t need just a whole lot of information. Ultimately, what we’re trying to do as salespeople is cut through the noise. I think if you look at the number of emails, messages, social media channels, even slack messages in the workplace, there’s a lot of noise out there. Ultimately, the role of enablement is to equip salespeople with information and content that they can share with their prospective buyers that will help cut through the noise. It really has to be tangible; it has to be aligned with the buyer’s journey; it has to be aligned with where they are within our internal sales process. If we are in a discovery phase with a potential prospect, we want to be asking the right questions, but oftentimes salespeople need guidance. They need someone to almost hold their hand and say, look, potentially this is what you should be asking, this is what you should be looking out for. Maybe at this stage, it’s great to share a case study. It’s great to share an experience that potentially another customer has had with your organization. I think where enablement really comes into play is making sure that the content that we’re sharing out with our customers, and also internally, is tailored, cuts through the noise, and is exactly what the salesperson and the customer needs. SS: Yes, I love that. Now, the other thing that you talked about, you wrote an article on LinkedIn and you talked about behaviors that salespeople can control to improve their success. One of them I loved a lot and I wanted you to talk about that to our audience, and it’s the ability to be coachable. How can enablement people, help salespeople see the value in coaching and help them buy into the whole process? ME: Yeah. I’m a huge fan of Mark Roberge's book, which is called the “Sales Acceleration Formula.” I highly recommend it to everyone, but the reason why I love it is because Mark Roberge really talks about this aspect of being coachable. When making that first sales hire or second sales hire, the key thing that he looks out for, and he almost recommends that others do the same, is this element of coachability. How quickly can a salesperson take on feedback and really put it into action? Ultimately, where enablement becomes slightly challenging is we’re dealing with salespeople, and salespeople always think one, they know it all, and two, they don’t need any help. We’re almost dealing with an audience that is slightly difficult in the change management aspect of things. I think where enablement really comes into play to help salespeople is knowing what’s in it and being able to say what’s in it for them. Your potentially providing training or you’re building out content. I think this element of what’s in it for them, how is this going to benefit them? How is it going to make them better in their sales role? How is it going to allow them to have more intelligent conversations with their customers? That has to be the key selling point and I think when you deal with an audience like salespeople, you really have to start small to get their buy-in. Then, what you’re able to see really is, are they coachable? Are they taking onboard the small pieces of information and content that you’re providing to them? I think so often where we go wrong is, a new person will come into enablement, and they will roll out an entire program that lasts for say two months. It’s a huge time commitment from the salespeople and that’s potentially when you can lose them. If you start in small increments, you’re then able to really look back and see, are they taking onboard what you have shared with them? SS: I think that’s a fantastic example. Actually, that goes to my last question a bit. We’ve talked about human-centered skills, and we’ve talked about behaviors for sales success, but how can sales enablement practitioners track the impact of those things on sales success? How do you use those metrics to inform the design of your enablement programs going forward? ME: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that’s always a tricky question when comes to enablement. The way that I look at it is that enablement really has a correlation with revenue and ultimately any kind of training or content that you’re rolling out really has to tie in very closely with the business objectives. That is the number one thing that I look at. If someone within the organization has an idea for a training, my first question is how does it tie into the business objectives? What is the outcome and how are we going to measure success? You can look at that correlation with revenue. Ultimately, if you’ve launched an enablement function and we know that there’s a correlation with revenue and you’re able to end the year on a high, that’s awesome. Then there are smaller metrics that you can use. Tying back to that element of coachability, are people really implementing and putting into practice what you’re teaching or sharing with them? If you do a knowledge check or if you do a review or some sort of certification, have they actually retained the knowledge? I think just a point to add on here, it’s not that you roll out one training and it solves the issue. That’s never the case. Training always has to be done in small sizes; it has to be done in increments. Maybe there is an idea for a training, but actually you’re probably going to have to break it down and scatter it in. Otherwise, the truth is people are just going to forget the content. Finally, it’s also that token of appreciation that comes from salespeople. I think that random thank you when they have learned something new and more importantly, when they were able to actually start using it in their conversations, on a personal level I think that puts a smile on any practitioner or people within sales enablement, that just makes them smile. You really have to look at where it ties into the business objectives. Is it aligned with revenue? Are you capturing and actually checking that people have retained the knowledge and are they putting it into practice? SS: I love that. Malvina, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. I learned a lot from you on our podcast, and I think your podcast is fantastic, so thank you again for making the time. ME: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. SS: To our audience, thanks for listening. For more insights, tips, and expertise from sales enablement leaders, visit salesenablement.pro. If there’s something you’d like to share or a topic you’d like to learn more about, please let us know. We’d love to hear from you.

http://polaroid41.com/before-the-butterfly/ Sunday, May 16th, 2021 - 4:18pm. My friend Marina is in town. I haven't seen her in about a year and a half but because the last time we saw each other was “pre-pandemic,” it feels like it's been a really long time. The city is still pretty much closed down so instead of sitting at the terrace of a café, we are sitting on the steps near the canal with two cans of beer we bought in a bakery. The sun is shining and we are grateful to have found a spot to just sit, talk and be together. Not so easy to come by these days. She's filling me in on the different things that are going on in her life and there are admittedly a lot of moving parts. Change is a comin' but everything is up in the air and, at this point, things could go in so many different directions. “Whew, that's a lot,” I say. “Yeah, I just hope I'm in that liquid stage inside the chrysalis,” she replies. Me: “Yeah, totally. Wait...what?” She looks at me, “You know how it works, right? When the caterpillar goes into the chrysalis?” She goes on to explain that inside the chrysalis the caterpillar actually melts into a completely liquid state and then transforms into a butterfly. She adds, “It's not like there's just a caterpillar in there that sprouts some wings and pops out as a butterfly.” I laugh when she says it because the image is funny but also because I realize that that's pretty much exactly what I'd thought. After heading home, I wanted to read more about this and typed: “chrysalis melt” into the search engine. What popped up was: chrysalis meltdown. Ahhh. The caterpillar doesn't just melt, it has a total meltdown. I discovered that while the words cocoon and chrysalis are often used interchangeably, they're not at all the same. Moth larvae spin cocoons of silk, butterfly larvae do not. Instead, they form a chrysalis, which is a hard exoskeleton. Essentially, caterpillars seal themselves inside their own skin and then digest themselves, releasing enzymes that dissolve all of their tissues. If you cut the chrysalis open at the right stage, all you would find inside would be a green liquid. No caterpillar, no butterfly. I'm aware that I'm totally anthropomorphizing here, but talk about a leap of faith. The caterpillar and the butterfly are the quintessential symbols of transformation and metamorphosis, but I never knew that for a butterfly to be born, a caterpillar had to entirely relinquish itself, totally dissolve. I'd never grasped that the breakdown was so complete and that there was an in-between stage after the caterpillar but before the butterfly. I found all this fascinating and promptly fell down a rabbit hole of articles on the topic. To my amazement, I read that studies show that despite the complete meltdown phase, butterflies may remember what they learned in the late stages of their caterpillar lives. I can only wish humans to be so lucky. I hope that if we give ourselves over to total transformation, the thing we get to keep is what we've learned. I love the notion that even when everything falls completely apart, there is an essential ‘knowing self' that may remain. ... The complete 'polaroid' - text, minicast and image - available at: http://polaroid41.com/before-the-butterfly/

Kris Rudeegraap is the co-founder and CEO of Sendoso, the leading Sending Platform. Kris has more than a decade of sales experience and has spent time at Talkdesk, Yapstone, and Piqora. During that time, he discovered that creating meaningful engagement through direct mail and gifting was an effective way to drive demand and increase sales - which helped inspire the idea for Sendoso. Kris is a California native and CSU-Chico alum currently residing in the Bay Area.   Questions   Could you share with us a little bit about your journey, a little bit about who you are, tell us what a leading Sending Platform is? What's that all about? And just how you got to where you are today? Could you share with us just based on your experience, and also your business as an entrepreneur and a leader, what are maybe one, two or three things that you think salespeople need to do to retain their customers? What are maybe one or two things you think that somebody could do to enhance or build on that skill? How can you build on being more empathetic as a human? Could you give us maybe some recommendations as how companies can leverage more collaboration software and use it to their advantage? And how can employees be open to adapt to this and be able to succeed, especially with something that they are not very comfortable with? How as a leader in all of these that's happening, can you ensure that your team is thinking creatively? They're thinking outside of the box? How do you get to inspire them, especially when you're not in the same physical space with them? How can you really get them motivated and pumped up that they are excited to come up with new ideas and innovative solutions to make the business move forward? Could you share with us maybe what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Can you share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or maybe something you read a very long time ago, but it still has an impact on you today? Can you share with us maybe what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now - either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people? Could you tell our listeners where they can find you online? Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to keep you focused, or kind of gets you back on track. If you get derailed at any point in time. Do you have one of those?   Highlights   Kris’ Journey   Kris shared that before starting Sendoso, he spent about 10 years in software sales in San Francisco. And so, he was really trying to break into new accounts, send emails to prospects, and really saw that there was a lot of digital noise and email was a hard channel to be super personalized.   And so, that's really where he decided to start sending out handwritten notes and he'd send little gifts, he'd send little packages with like company swag and all that stuff was really great, it was just super hard to do and very manual and very time consuming.   And so, he dreamed up this idea of a sending platform where you can click and send a button inside of tools like Salesforce or HubSpot or other tools. And then behind the scenes, it would do all the fulfillment and all the hard work for him.   And so that was the original idea and that's what inspired him to start Sendoso about 5 years ago, and really a sending platform is a couple components. One is it allows you to send out really anything and everything, corporate gifts, their direct mail, their company swag, there could be flowers, cookies, ice cream, gift cards, digital experiences, you name it, they can send it. There's also team management and budgets, there's integrations, there's fulfillment all under one platform.   Me: Sounds good. So a big part of what Sendoso does are, what you do is sales?    Kris shared that sales, that's how he got started and a lot of their customers are using them for sales. But they also have a good amount of companies using them for post sales. So customer service, customer success, marketing, and even HR too.   Tips on How Salespeople Can Retain Their Customers   Me: So what I like to find out from you is could you share with us just based on your experience, and also your business as an entrepreneur and a leader. What are maybe one, two or three things that you think salespeople need to do to retain their customers? So I know sales is about getting new customers, but how do you ensure that you retain your existing customers? How do you have that relationship, the customer relationship management component? Maybe what are two or three things that you think is critical based on your experience?   Kris shared that he'd say one is really being human and building rapport and think about it as not a business to business, but a business to a human and how do you build that relationship. Two is really just getting creative with how you engage folks. So not just using email, but using other means to build that relationship. And he thinks the third is really leading with empathy and putting yourself in your buyer’s shoes, and really encouraging authenticity and really understanding what the buyer really needs.    How to Build on Being More Empathetic as a Human   Me: Okay, so those are three really good points. Now, let's say for example, you're dealing with sales reps that don't know how to exercise empathy. So as a Customer Service Trainer, I have found based on research and experience that empathy is not one of those skills that you learn when you're growing up, it's really a skill that you develop as you get older, as you get to understand yourself, as you get to understand emotions in other people. But some people just still are not able to exercise empathy to its fullest extent. What are maybe one or two things you think that somebody could do to enhance or build on that skill? How can you build on being more empathetic as a human?   Kris shared that he would say one is finding training and learning courses, so going out of your way to find ways that you can really learn about how to be more empathetic and kind of study and learn and kind of take what you've learned and start practicing that. He'd say that's the first thing is really going out of your way to learn more. And then he thinks the second is, people might not be as empathetic in business, he thinks a lot of people are naturally maybe empathetic in their home life and maybe understanding what are those key things you're doing in kind of your home, non-work life that could be empathetic, and how could you translate that into more business like environments.   Me: That's a good one. Because it's the same skill, same behaviour, you're exercising in a personal environment so you need to just transfer that into a professional environment so that you can really understand where the other person is coming from.   How Companies Can Leverage and Adapt Collaboration Software And Use it to Their Advantage    Me: So a big part of customer experience also is understanding that we're in this space now where we have to be pivoting, I think that was a big word for 2020 and it's definitely come over into 2021. And just being able to be flexible using the different technologies that exist out there to serve our customers. Agility is also something that a lot of organizations are looking to do with their teams. So could you give us maybe some recommendations as how companies can leverage more collaboration software and use it to their advantage? And how can employees be open to adapt to this and be able to succeed, especially with something that they are not very comfortable with?   Kris stated that he thinks that to Yanique’s point, one is taking the time to really time block on your calendar to learn more. We live in a world where people work, and maybe don't do enough in terms of like education or re-education, so he'd say purposefully putting time on your calendar for learning and development is key. And being cognizant of that, say, “Hey, next week, I'm going to block two hours, and I'm going to learn this or I'm going to practice using this software,” which might sound like how do you have enough time to do that, but he thinks it's taking that time, it's almost like taking a step sideways to take 10 steps forward, versus kind of always being in an environment where you feel behind. So, he would say that is one scenario. He'd say two is just maybe, depending on your level of leadership, really just the culture of the company, or the executives can be really driving this agility and so, he thinks it starts at the top. And really, if you can demonstrate agility at the top and really make that a key part of your company culture, it can really benefit everybody.   How To Inspire Your Team to Think Creatively   Me: Leadership is very important, I'm glad you touched on that just now in terms of getting people to really step up to the plate. So you have these teams and even though they're working from home, I've heard so many complaints where people complain that they're just exhausted, they're burnt out, literally, just between family, depending on what age the kids are, and then just keeping the home in order, and then being on all of these Zooms and Microsoft Team meetings constantly at your computer. But then outside of those meetings, you have the actual work to get done and it's just a lot.   How as a leader in all of these that's happening, can you ensure that your team is thinking creatively? They're thinking outside of the box? How do you get to inspire them, especially when you're not in the same physical space with them? How can you really get them motivated and pumped up that they are excited to come up with new ideas and innovative solutions to make the business move forward?   Kris shared that one thing that comes to mind is making sure that you are upfront about a flexible work life balance and right now it's harder than ever to be flexible, because you kind of live and work in the same room, so to speak. And so, he thinks it's purposefully making sure people are stepping away, even if it's just a staycation and you're staying home, you just put your laptop away. So, they really try to inspire that, they even have a twice a year employee bonus that if you take a vacation or a staycation, they'll give a $500 bonus each time to spend on that and so they're kind of paying their employees to take breaks and keep that flexible work life balance. And so, he thinks that's one area, making sure you keep your work life balance strong so that it really keeps your mental state in a really good place. Two, he'd say is like, how do you get creative or have more fun with some of your Zoom meetings and so, they've incorporate things like Zoom wine tasting events, or they've done like dinner making class over zoom and so they bring in special guests to some of these Zooms, and maybe change it up a little bit so it feels a little bit more unique, and adds a little bit of flair. So he thinks that's an interesting way.   And then there's other ways as it relates to just helping getting people out of their comfort zone, and maybe connecting people with other teams. So they've tried to institute more of like cross team collaboration or getting people involved in kind of mini, what they call tiger teams, or project teams, they kind of are taken away from maybe their normal day to day and exposed to new parts of the business where maybe they can bring their new level of creativity.   Me: That's really amazing. So I like the idea of dinner, what was the suggestion, you bring in a special guest and that person would prepare dinner and everybody kind of follows along?   Kris confirmed and stated that they've done like a special checked guest that comes in. They did one where was like a cheese making class, there's a wine tasting event where you could wine taste virtually. So it makes some of these Zoom meetings just a bit more exciting.   Me: So do you do that in the middle of the day? Or is that an additional Zoom meeting that is tacked on to the end of their day?   Kris stated that it could be both, he thinks for the wine tasting one, they typically would want that to be more like a 3:00 pm or 4:00 pm or 5:00 pm. And so, it's typically still during business hours, but it just says, “Hey, have some fun with this and kind of meet more of your team and have a have some fun.” But some other ones could happen during the day too as well. And it's more of a way to kind of think creatively versus just be in the same exact kind of Zoom fatigue.   Me: Yeah, I agreed. That's really cool, very creative, very innovative, and it does stimulate a different parts of the brain, which will definitely help them to not feel like they're doing the same thing over and over and it gets mundane. And just as you said don't feel motivated.   App, Website or Tool that Kris Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business   When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Kris shared that from a collaboration perspective, Slack, it just like keeps them all collaborating, that is probably the one they couldn't live without. One that he really loves is an app called Feedly, and it basically brings together hundreds of different blogs into one app that he enjoys reading. And it's a great way for him to stay creative and really be immersed in a lot of different contexts of ideas. And he typically wakes up and do some reading in that app and then he'll typically go to bed and do some reading in it. And it just gives him new perspectives across a myriad of different topics.    Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Kris   Kris shared that he’s a huge podcast listener and actually give him the biggest inspiration and impact. And so, he’s all in on podcasts and a couple podcasts that he’s just obsessed with. So he'd probably say he listens to podcasts, maybe daily, he would read books maybe a few times a year, so he’s much more engaged with podcasts and a couple that he loves, one's called Dare to Lead with Brene¢ Brown and another is called Acquired, another is called Follow Your Different and then a classic, another one, How I Built This.   Me: Oh, nice. May I ask what kind of topics they discuss predominantly on those podcasts? Are they more like self development podcasts? Or are they business podcasts?   Kris stated that he would say a bit of both, part of them are business related, but also, they also include talking to founders at times too, which gives you kind of personal inspiration as well. So he thinks it's part personal inspiration, part business, and then part just kind of interesting topics.    What Kris is Really Excited About Now!   Kris shared that one thing that he’s doing that is, now that they have close to 400 employees now. One of the things he’s doing is just random meetings with employees, and he created this new Slack channel called Ask Kris Anything and then he meets with 3 to 5 random employees each week. And so, that's something that he’s doing just so that he can really understand how they're scaling the business and learn from everybody. And so, that's been something that he has been doing recently that he’s really excited to continue.   Where Can We Find Kris Online   LinkedIn – Kris Rudeegraap Website – www.sendoso.com Email – kris@sendoso.com   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Kris Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that helps him get back track, Kris shared that he would say that the one that comes to mind that he remember the end that he thinks about often is, “Entrepreneurs spend a few years of their life like most people won't, so they can spend the rest of their life like most people can't.” And so, he thinks it kind of hints on that like there's tough times for an entrepreneur, but if you make it, your life will be changed forever. And so, that's one of his favourite quotes. The other one he thinks is a popular quote by Wayne Gretzky is, “You miss every shot you don't take.” And he lives by that too, you got to take risks, you got to challenge yourself, you got to do stuff and get out there. And so, that's also an inspiring quote for him too.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Jim Freeze is the Chief Marketing Officer, and he focuses on brand strategy and awareness, thought leadership, product marketing, demand generation, creative services and public and analyst relations. Jim brings more than 25 years of experience leading marketing teams at Fortune 1000 and other enterprise technology companies, a history which includes proven success in all aspects of marketing, sales and business development.   Most recently, Jim served as a Chief Marketing Officer at Aspect Software, where he was responsible for all aspects of global marketing, including product management, product marketing, branding, advertising, customer experience and demand generation programs.   Questions   Could you just take a little time and share with us how it is that you got into what you are doing today, brand strategy, thought leadership, just tell us a little bit about that journey to where you are now. You were talking a little bit about Conversational A.I and this has been a very unconventional year no matter which country you’re living in the world, everybody's impacted by this pandemic. How do you see, just almost like a kind of prediction for 2021, if you could maybe share some insight with us, maybe based on data or just insights you've garnered from conversations that you've had with other people, Conversational A.I really flourishing in 2021 and do you see changing just the landscape of how customers interact with different businesses? Customers focus a lot more on the quality of service that they're getting than before. Would you agree? Do you find that as a result of the pandemic, there's just more emphasis on how people are being served, are they exercising empathy, are they exercising care, customers are just more aware of those softer skills in the interactions that they have, especially since this year. So we spoke a little bit about Artificial Intelligence. What are some other insights in terms of, like customer service trends that you've seen for 2020 that you think will definitely accelerate in 2021? And let's say a lot of our listeners are small business owners. They may not necessarily have the big budgets like some of the bigger organizations. Are there any trends that came on board that you think they could possibly take on a small scale that would make a difference in their customer experience? Could you share with us what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Could you share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago that still has a great impact on you or maybe a book that you read recently that still resonates with you. What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now? It can be something that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Where can our listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge you’ll tend to revert to this quote – it can help to refocus you or get you back on track in terms of any form of backtracking to you may have been experiencing.   Highlights   Jim’s Journey   Jim shared that he had a little bit of a kind of an unusual journey to be honest. He finished his undergraduate and graduate work and graduated back in the late 80s with a Master’s Degree in Mathematics. And his first job out of college was actually as a computer programmer. It's kind of an interesting background. And he wasn't actually in marketing, but through a number of things that happened in his first position within the first 6 months, he was actually put in front of some customers for a number of reasons and the sales and marketing team thought he was quite good in front of customers. So they said, “You're wasting your time programming, come over and join us on the marketing side.” And that started the marketing journey. Along the way he picked up his Law Degree as well. So he actually practiced law for 2 years and 2 years was enough practicing law to convince him that he wanted to go back into to marketing.   So he came back to after his stint in law, came back to high tech marketing and has been doing it ever since. And it's been fascinating. The first company her worked for was a company that some listeners may have heard of called CompuServe, it was kind of a pioneering company that was one of the first companies to allow people to use their home computers to go online, a proprietary online service and then eventually became an internet service. And he has watched the advances in technology from 9.6 dial up modems to where we are today.   So it's been quite a journey, but one he has really enjoyed. And in particular, the last almost 9 years of his career have been spent in the customer service/customer experience base. As mentioned, the previous company he worked at, Aspect Software, was kind of traditional software company that focused on delivering ACDs and IVRs and workforce management software to enterprise.   As he was there for 6 years as the Chief Marketing Officer, loved the company and loved the space. And for the past 2 ½ years, he has been the Chief Marketing Officer of Interactions, and his attraction to interactions was understanding the customer experience space and understanding kind of legacy technology that is primarily still used today for delivering customer service and customer experience. He was really attracted to new contemporary solutions that were based on Artificial Intelligence that had the potential to dramatically change the customer experience in a very positive way and at the same time helping companies drive cost out of their businesses.   So, that's what really drew him to Interactions, Interactions as a leader and conversational A.I, a very unique solution that combines their Artificial Intelligence stack that is once again called Conversational A.I. with real time human understanding. So, it's humans and Artificial Intelligence working together and as a result of that, they deliver extraordinary human like conversations for their customers to their customers and help them dramatically improve customer experience and drive cost out of the business. So, it's a fun company where they're truly transforming the contact center and they're excited about it. They're a late stage startup, well over one hundred million dollars in revenue and growing, so it's a fun time to be in the customer service/customer experience space.   Conversational A.I Flourishing in 2021 and How Customer Interactions will be Impacted Across Different Businesses   Jim stated that this year has been profound in terms of changes that we're seeing. And across the tech landscape, what we've experienced because of the pandemic has really accelerated a lot of initiatives, specifically those that relate to Artificial Intelligence, that relate to automation.   And part of the reason for that and this is based on actual conversations they've had with customers of theirs, it's pretty clear that business continuity plans that companies had in place didn't envision what ended up happening as a result of the pandemic. And he'll give a couple of very specific examples.   So, they certainly have had customers who in the March timeframe of this year had to basically send employees to work from home and in some cases, their contact centers, that meant sending contact center agents at home. And they thought a lot of companies that were not prepared for that, their business continuity plan didn't envision something like that happening. Now, the assumption is, well, that we can just transition to home and set something up so they can work from home over their Internet connection. And in many cases, that worked but if you think about many companies rely on offshore agents, a lot of agents who are in Southeast Asia, and the assumption that agents in Southeast Asia have high speed internet access at home is a bad assumption.   And so, they saw a lot of companies struggle. They worked overtime, 24 hours a day, really trying to help some of their customers address some of the challenges that he thinks that they hadn't necessarily anticipated. And as a result of that, they think there's a new set of priorities that are coming out for enterprises that they think about customer experience and certainly one of those is increased use of technology to enable automation, but enable automation in a way that's not robotic but truly human and delivers a good customer experience. So there's no doubt in their mind, based on what they've seen with their customers, that there is a significant acceleration of Artificial Intelligence initiatives and there's very much a mandate now.   Emphasis and Importance of Quality of Service as a Result of the Pandemic   Me: Amazing. So, customer experience has definitely forced us to transform. And I personally think that as a customer myself since the pandemic, that customers focus a lot more on the quality of service that they're getting than before. Would you agree? How has it been where you are, where you live? Do you find that as a result of the pandemic, there's just more emphasis on how people are being served, are they exercising empathy, are they exercising care, customers are just more aware of those softer skills in the interactions that they have, especially since this year.   Jim shared that he thinks the emphasis and the importance of that has come to the forefront. And part of the reason for that is once again, when the pandemic hit, a lot of companies were not necessarily prepared for how they had to change. And as a result, many of these companies, their service levels relative to how they deliver customer service, really started to drop off. And, he saw that personally and in the companies he as a consumer do business with where in the past, if he had an issue, he could maybe get it resolved after waiting in a queue for 5 minutes. And, there were companies he was doing business with where he was in a queue for an hour waiting to talk to somebody to resolve an issue.   And he thinks those companies had good intentions to try to be able to resolve that. But they didn't have the infrastructure, the technology, and certainly not the people in place to address it. So this pandemic has demonstrated how fragile some of that infrastructure is. And so, there's a heavy emphasis on trying to fix that. And there's no doubt, especially in this environment that customer care, customer service, customer experience is becoming a huge differentiator for businesses. If you think about it, if you pick your favorite cell phone carrier, they use the same 5G, 4G technology, it's the same, iPhone or pick your favorite Android phone and there's not a lot of differentiation in terms of the actual service and the devices that are used. And you got to try to find a way to differentiate some other way and customer experience is a great way to do that.   Same thing with airlines, they all fly the same Boeing planes, they all say the same Airbus planes, the same seats, the same routes in many cases, they've got to find a way to differentiate. And you can do that with price but nobody wants to do a race to the bottom on price. So customer experience, delivering a terrific customer experience is a great way to differentiate. And it's more important now than ever.   Me: I totally, totally agree with you, Jim. And as you said, we're all competing. I think I was talking to an entrepreneur recently who said she was a little discouraged and she was saying to me, “Oh, but other people do the same thing I do.”And I said, “Well, yes, I think every industry has competition. There's no industry that you are in, whether public or private sector, that you don't have somebody else that's doing the exact same thing that you are doing.” I think the only thing that differentiates you is how it is that you deliver that service. Are you flexible? Are you available? Are you giving great value, depending on what value is to the customer that you're serving. And so, that to many people is different things, depending on what is important to me or to you. And, of course, convenience, people will pay for convenience. Over the weekend in Jamaica where I live, we have almost the equivalent of Costco that you guys have in the States. It's called Pricemart here in Jamaica.   And Jim, the line it took me almost an hour just to get from the main road just to get into the company's parking lot. I'm not talking in the building where the actual products are. Just to get parked on their compound, it took over an hour and this was on Sunday morning. And I had a brilliant idea. Okay, if I get up at 7:00 am in the morning and to get there by 7:30, I'm sure I can get in and out before 8:30 am. I didn't end up believing that to close to 10:00 am. And it was after I left, I was told by a few friends that they often deliver services now, they don't go there anymore because they just delivered to them, and it’s so much easier. Now that I'm thinking of it in hindsight I'm saying, “Boy, that would have been a much better experience than me sitting in traffic for over an hour, then going inside and joining these elongated lines that was just so frustrating.” So, convenience is something I know customers will pay for because time is money.   Jim agreed and stated that there's plenty of research from many different companies and research firms that suggest that consumers will absolutely pay a premium for good or great customer service because of the point you're making, which is, time is money and people don't want their time wasted. They want companies that they do business with to respect them and one of the ways you can respect them is to respect their time. He'll share a story that happened to him recently.   He was calling a company he does business with and it was on a Saturday and the service he was getting wasn't working. So he went through their frustrating menu tree and finally got into after about 5 minutes into it, into what he thought was going to be a queue to wait for somebody to come onto the phone and after basically 5 to 6 minutes of finally getting to the point where he thought he was going to go into a queue and wait longer, they come back with a message, “We value you as a customer. Please call us back on Monday at 9:00 am. He’s like, “No, you don't value me as a customer; you just wasted 6 minutes of my time. You could have told me that from the beginning.” And as a consumer, he’s like; “Do I really want to do business with this company?” So it's he couldn't agree with Yanique more.   Insight In Terms of Customer Service Trends to Accelerate in 2021   Jim stated that one certainly they just hit on, which is that differentiation; customer service is a great way to differentiate. Second, the enabling self-service for customers. And there are lots of different kinds of technologies that can help with that. He thinks the assumption that some companies have certainly a lot of some larger companies have this assumption, but smaller ones as well, is that when there is a contact from a consumer that consumer necessarily wants to speak to a human.   And that's actually not true, at least from his experience, it's not true. What consumers really want is to be able to resolve their issue; they want quick and effortless answers to questions. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go through a human to do that. So if you can enable self-service in a way that's effortless and quick, that will lead to really satisfied customers, if you make it available 24 by 7 on a channel of choice, that also will really help, having it not be robotic but truly conversational and just having it personalized.   A lot of companies, if you call in with your mobile phone and they have that number or your landline, if they know who you are, why go through an authentication if you can say, yeah, we know who it is and personalize the experience of that. So, he thinks that one of the trends we're seeing is that companies are starting large and small alike questioning really what their customers want and not necessarily just assuming they know, but questioning it and having a good understanding.   He'll give a great example based on their experience, it's very common for them to go in and displace at their customers legacy technology. A legacy technology would be something like an IVR, when you call in, it says press 1 for this, press 2 for that or you can say things like billing. It tells you how you're allowed to behave. And it's a terrible customer experience and customers don't like it, it's very frustrating but one of the things they've seen with a number of customers they've dealt with is that they assume that they know the 4 or 5 reasons that customer are calling them.   So, they'll present those 4 or 5 options in a menu, 1 for billing, 2 for technical support, or whatever it is. So, they assume they know. And one of the things that they've found is that and they counsel their clients to do this is take a step back and say, what are your customers really trying to solve here?   And sometimes they'll do something where they call an intent study where they'll inject themselves. And instead of saying you can press 1 or 2; they’ll do this brief, intense study where they say instead of all that, they just say, “How may I help you?”    And the consumer tells you and they do that over the course of about a short period of time, you come back and you realize actually your customers are calling 4 different reasons than you thought they were. So he thinks it's really important that companies focus on understanding why their customers are calling them. And as a consequence of that, you can enable much better automation and self-service that ultimately delivers a much better customer experience.   App, Website or Tool that Jim Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business   When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Jim that that's a tough one. He doesn't necessarily know that there's just one single site, but he thinks it's a combination of news sites, research, financial and analysis tools that kind of allow him to gain customer insight, competitive analysis and keep himself current on technology. So, he has some go to sites.   They as a business, they subscribe to some research from analyst firms, he finds that very helpful. Find some on his own and there are certain news sites that he also finds really helpful. So it's tough for him to say one site because he thinks there's a combination and that's the beauty of the web, you don't actually have to rely on a single site, but he has some go to sites that and research and analysis that he finds really helpful in keeping him current and helping him better understand kind of what's happening in the market.    Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Jim   When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Jim shared that a year ago, he might have answered this differently, but he'll tell you what which kind of resonated with him recently and he did read this probably, 8, 9, 10 years ago. There's a book by Doris Kearns Goodwin, who's a presidential historian, and she wrote a book called No Ordinary Time: Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt: The Home Front in World War II. And it was about kind of the 1930s through the 1940s through basically the Roosevelt administration in the United States. And it was an extraordinary time that the country was going through, a depression, trying to come out of that depression and then rolling into World War II.   And the reason he thinks that book was so impactful for him was thinking about this notion, he put together this idea of Roosevelt, of a team of rivals, where he realized that he needed people who had a different perspective than he did to navigate through an extraordinary time. And part of the reason that book really is resonating with him so much today is because of what they've all been through since March with this pandemic. The world is so different than it was in February, just 8, 9, 10 months ago; it is a very different world. And he thinks of how we could all benefit from that notion of coming together and focusing on tackling very large issues, not in a partisan way, but in a kind of a way that brings us together. So that book has been on his mind recently. And he thought the current circumstances remind me of that.    What Jim is Really Excited About Now!    Jim shared that it relates to their company, but it's another result of the pandemic. He'll tell a little story, which is kind of interesting. They at Interactions, they were in February, March, about to sign a new 11 year lease on a brand new corporate headquarters, it was like 55,000, 56000 square feet.   They were going to spend millions of dollars in renovating and it was a dedicated building. Early March hit and the pandemic came and they started working from home and they were literally within a week of signing the agreements and the lease for that towards the end of March. And they took a step back and they said, “What are we doing? We've been working at home for 3 weeks now and everything's working great. Maybe we can learn something from the current circumstances.”   So they went from in the course of about 6 weeks from about to sign a new lease, 11 year lease and spend millions, millions of dollars on a renovation to making a decision to become a full time work from home company. And when they've seen other companies do that as well and talk about lots of companies are doing that and very profound in for them as employees, for him personally, that meant that he had flexibility to work from wherever he wanted.   They were headquartered in the Boston area and he lived in Boston and but he has a second home in South Florida. And so right after Thanksgiving, he has moved to South Florida and he’s talking to Yanique from South Florida right now.   And this is his new home and it's exciting for him because he has tremendous personal flexibility now that he didn't necessarily have before. They've seen that with a number of their employees, it's impacted their business in that they were recruiting for new employees and they're hiring right now. So, it's another example of how the pandemic has accelerated decision making and thinking among companies and how it impacts individuals personally, he’s super excited about that. He’s really excited about the fact that he can live in a place where he didn't think he'd be living for another 5 or 6, 7 years. So, there are some benefits that are coming out of what we've all been through.   Me: Definitely. It's so interesting that that's what you shared, because I recorded a solo podcast last night, Christmas Edition that we want to release hopefully for tomorrow. And in doing my research, it said that according to a PWC report, it said 82% of office workers would prefer to continue working remotely, at least part of the time, even after COVID-19 has subsided. And a whopping 73% of executives say working remotely has been a success. Here in Jamaica, there's a client I have and one of their business lines is pensions and their entire pensions department has moved to work from home and manager for that department has said that she doesn't think they're actually going to go back to in office because she's actually seen the team be more productive since they've been working from home and they've saved so much.   Jim stated that well, it's interesting, they obviously spent a lot of money on a facility and they do still have a facility that they'll meet occasionally face to face, but it's been scaled back dramatically. So, if somebody is in town on business, they can go work in the office if they want or if they want to have a department meeting, they can do that. But to the point about productivity, he used to drive to the office in Boston; it was an hour drive from, to work. And then based on what traffic was coming home, another hour, typically an hour and 15 minutes, that's over two hours of his day that now he can dedicate to work as opposed to being behind the wheel of a car. There are so many more productive things to be doing than sitting behind the wheel of a car.   The impacts of this are pretty profound. And it's not just obviously in the U.S., it's everywhere, the impacts are profound. What does this mean for the commercial real estate market? Office space? He thinks a lot of large towers or office spaces now are having to rethink, what are we going to do with this space? There may not be that much demand for it. We're all using less gas because we're not going as many places; we're changing everything about our lives. And it has impacts all the way down the supply chain. It creates opportunity for many and in some it’s forcing businesses to change and adapt. So, it's a scary and exciting time.   Me: Yeah, it is so true, because even as you mentioned, in terms of traveling, you're spending less on gas, as you said, one person maybe benefiting in one area, but then the persons who benefit from certain amount of gas sales, they are definitely not benefiting as much because people's cars are clearly parked more than they would be driving on the road back and forth. So, yeah, there are definitely advantages and disadvantages.   Jim stated that hopefully when we get back to 6 months from now, hopefully, people across the world have been vaccinated and this thing by virtue of herd immunity goes away. But he thinks we're never going back to life the way it was, it's different, it's going to stay that way.   Me: I was listening to a podcast yesterday, funny enough, and the lady said something. I thought it was so hilarious. She said we're never going to go to a birthday party again and you're going to see a bowl full of MnM’s, as in, for kids to dip their hands in, for parents dip their hands in, so everybody's not going to start buying the packaged Eminem’s or anything that you would have shared communally, you're now going to ensure that each person has their own individual packet and all of that was born out of COVID. I just think certain things will change for the long term. People are going to be so much more conscious of just touching and sharing in terms of different things. And they won't be as open to just doing things that we would have taken for granted before.   Jim stated that he was thinking about this the other day. He hasn't shaken somebody's hand since mid-March. He stated he is a business executive and he meets people and nobody does that anymore. And he kind of wonder if we're going to go back to that or if we're going to adopt much of what's done in Asian cultures, which is bowing, which is kind of interesting, maybe that's what we all do. So, everything is changing. And some people hate change, he loves change. He thinks change is exciting and so he tries to embrace it when it happens. But the world is going to change.   Where Can We Find Jim Online   LinkedIn – James Freeze Website – www.interactions.com    Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jim Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that helps him to refocus, Jim share that he does and talk about it being very pertinent to the current days. It’s from Maya Angelou; she is a wonderful writer and poet. And she has an expression that he has used a number of times over the course of the past few months and it is kind of instructive to him personally and she said, “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel.” And it’s a constant reminder to him especially in times of adversity for the people he deals with, he kind of want to leave them with an impression about he makes them feel. It’s so instructive and he thinks it’s a very powerful statement.   Me: That’s actually one of our favorite quotes for Navigating the Customer Experience and one of my personal favourites as well. And it’s so true Jim, you being in the technology and data side of customer experience in terms of Artificial Intelligence, I am sure at the end of the day, even though technology is there to assist us in delivering or solving our problems for our customers, at the end of the day, people still want to be treated well, they want to feel good after they have done business with your company. And that feeling can’t come if you’re not being responsive, if you’re not fixing the problem, if you’re not giving them what it is that they are seeking in that moment, they are not going to want to spread good news about you and your company. And so, it’s really about how you make people feel, their emotional needs.   Jim agreed and shared that just being honest with people and being understanding and being transparent and just being cognizant of how somebody feels when they walk away. They may not even get the answer that they want but if you’ve treated them respectfully and you’ve been honest, people will remember that even though they didn’t get the answers. He just thinks especially in our current times, it’s really important and it’s something he thinks about a lot in terms of the way he interact with others as well.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links No Ordinary Time: Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt: The Home Front in World War II by Doris Kearns Goodwin    The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. 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Shawnna Sumaoang: Hi, and welcome to the Sales Enablement PRO podcast. I am Shawnna Sumaoang. Sales enablement is a constantly evolving space and we’re here to help professionals stay up to date on the latest trends and best practices so that they can be more effective in their jobs. Today I’m excited to have Mark from Bizzabo join us. Mark, I would love for you to introduce yourself, your role, and your organization to our audience. Mark Eckstein: Hey Shawnna, thanks so much for having me. So, as you said, my name is Mark Eckstein and I lead revenue enablement at Bizzabo. Bizzabo is an event management software company. We enable companies to execute virtual in-person or hybrid events to provide rewarding and impactful experiences for their attendees. SS: Well Mark, I’m very excited to have you join us today. You and I have connected before, and during that time, you had talked about the robust onboarding program that you’ve built at Bizzabo. I would love for you to explain to our audience what are the core elements of your onboarding framework? ME: Yeah, I’m happy to. I think the best way to go about this is probably to answer a little bit more chronologically. So, if I were brand new in enablement and I’m looking to really build out a new onboarding program from scratch, what would be the steps that I would take. With that concept, the first thing I would do, like with most things in enablement is I would start with discovery. Specifically, I would need to understand what’s the role that we’re looking to hire for, and what does success look like for an individual in that role? And once we have that understanding of what success looks like, we’re then able to backtrack and analyze what’s the specific knowledge, skills, tools, and organizational understanding that’s necessary for a new hire in that role to reach success. Now, tactically, what this looks like is basically a few conversations between myself, enablement, the hiring manager, a few reps on the team who we deem as the most successful, as well as some relevant stakeholders from across the company. And those could be anywhere from CS, client services, solution, support. Just anyone who engages with this typical member of the new organization. So once we’ve aggregated what success looks like and what a new hire would need to be successful in that role from discovery, those actually become your inputs in building out the next part of what you’re going to do, which is building out the individual learning journeys for that role. So personally, I use a tool called Trello for the day-to-day program template for each role. It’s free, simple, and scalable. Now the learning journey itself is where the most amount of your effort and time really goes into when building out your onboarding program. Now, I like to break that up into three macro sessions. So, the first one is going to be, what does everyone need to know what the organization? So, for us, this becomes your general onboarding program, the foundational part of the program that all employees go through. This could be anything from support, sales, IT, HR, doesn’t matter. Everyone at our company needs this basis of understanding. And for us, it’s the first six days of when you start at our company. It covers everything from a goals meeting with your manager, what are my expectations, what is the company looking for me to achieve and how do I get there, our overall company, what’s our mission and vision, our culture and values, the overall market in which we play with it. And so, in that case, how has it evolved over time and where do we see it going forward? Then we get into ICP, the ideal of our ideal customer profile. What are the companies in which we think are best fits? For what we provide to the market and they’re going to be the most successful with it. And then the individual personas at our clients and prospects. And for this, it’s the understanding of, I want every employee at our company to have an understanding of what are the goals for these individuals who, if I’m on support, I’m helping with the solutions ticket. If I’m on sales, I’m making a call too. And if I’m on CS, my goal is to make these people successful. And I think everyone at the company needs that baseline understanding. So, we embed it into the actual onboarding general onboarding program. And then finally we move into the last two parts, which is really competition. Where do we sit within the marketplace? Where do we win? Where do they win? And then finally our product. I put product specifically at the end of that general onboarding program, because for some roles you’ll find it gets a little bit distracting. So, if that’s the first macro section of what we’re looking to do when we’re building out a general onboarding program. The second section is really when we get into that specific role. What does that need to know that they have? So, what are the skills, knowledge, and tools training for that specific new role that we’re now building out? And that ends up being the next seven to 13 days of guided learning for that individual new hire within our company. And then the third and last macro section that we’re going to talk about are feedback loops. And these generally encompass kind of two different parts. The first one is the assignments and certifications. How do we know if a new hire learned what we taught them and can effectively actually apply that knowledge and skills? And then the second part are the experience feedback loops. So these ensure that new hires are actually enjoying the experience of the onboarding program itself and if there is anything that we can do as program administrators to further improve it, that we’re hearing about it basically near real-time, you can fix it accordingly before the next new hire cohort starts. And for us, every cohort is about every two weeks. So, it’s a constant stream of new hires coming through the organization and therefore this constant iteration within these programs to rebuild it little by little and tweak it before the next one comes. SS: I think that’s a fantastic framework, Mark. Absolutely fantastic. Now you mentioned several of the revenue facing teams that you support. So how do you go about tailoring the program though to make it a little more role specific.? ME: Yeah, it’s a great question. It’s actually a little bit easier than you would think. So, every new employee still goes through what we discussed before, that general onboarding program, those first six days, and therefore in tailoring it to the specific new role that we’re looking to build out a program for it’s really just focusing on the role, specific knowledge, skills, tools, and organizational understanding that they need to know. So, each one of those “need to know” then turns into an individual lesson. A class, a quiz, an assignment, or a practice mock role play that are placed logically throughout that new hire’s learning journey or in our case, Trello board. Now, once you have this journey built out the first time, it now becomes a template and you just re-review that template with the relevant hiring manager or recent new hire who may have just fully ramped and is considered successful within that role today. And after reviewing the current template model for that specific role, we make tweaks here and there, and then it constantly improves the program with new iterations over time. The update to that underlying template really only takes about maybe two hours per role for every new cohort starting to ensure that they’re best set up even better than the last cohort to be successful post the onboarding program. SS: I think that’s fantastic. Now I have to ask because with every onboarding program, I think retention is obviously one of the key concerns for sales enablement practitioners, because there’s so much information being given to these new hires all at once. So how do you ensure that your new hires are retaining the information as they process through the program? ME: Yeah, this is actually the first part of a class that I teach on how to teach anyone anything. And it really goes with how knowledge retention works. So, most people forget 50% of what they learn an hour after learning it, 70% after 24 hours, and 90% within the first full week. So, when we’re talking about three or four-week onboarding program, that’s a lot of content to forget very quickly. So, knowledge retention becomes a very big primary goal within any program that we’re building. And therefore, when we think about how people, how the brain itself retains information, it has to be embedded into the program constantly. So, there’s four specific ways that I track new hire knowledge, retention, and skill development. The first one is end of day cohort check-ins. So, this is basically everyone who joins at that same point in time and across all roles, we get together at the end of every day for half an hour and we talk about three different things. First, we focus on barriers. What are the things that stopping you from being able to progress within this program today? Maybe it’s software that they still need access to, or an individual meeting that they may need moved because of some specific circumstance. The second block of those cohort check-ins is really Q and A from the day’s lessons. So, you know, you went to a competitive landscape class today. Why don’t you rephrase for me and put into your own words, kind of where we stand within the market, where do we win against this specific competitor? And it forces them to then do recall, to regurgitate and paraphrase into their own words, what they learned from that day. Then the third and last part about that is really prioritization going on. So, looking at tomorrow, these are the classes that you have upcoming. What do you think you should be doing to be prepared for those classes and just gets them in the mindset of that next day, while still retaining the information and reviewing the information from the day that just happened? So that’s that first of four ways. The second one is going to be team mentor, quick snapshot surveys on the new hires themselves. So, we pair up. Every new hire starts at our organization with a mentor, someone who is in your role today, who does their own daily check-ins with the new hire. And basically, you know, you’re a new person who’s starting in supporting here at our company. I’ve never done support. So, it’s really hard for me to give you very specific information on how a support person is going to be really successful at utilizing this specific tool. But when we pair you up with a mentor, who’s in your role, they can answer all those questions incredibly quickly and allow you kind of the baseline, so you never have to remake the wheel yourself. You just utilize the template that’s been really successful so far, and we specifically choose mentors who we deem as very successful within the organization. And this way they’re only passing on really high-quality information. That’s going to really build efficiency and effectiveness for this new hire. The third one in which we track new hire knowledge retention, and skill development are assignments. These assignments are scheduled throughout every new hire learning journey, following important lessons in classes, it’s the immediate snapshot of whether or not, and how much of what they just learned, they understood and can actually apply. And then finally there are certifications, and these are more specifically for client prospect facing walls. The certifications are a series of quizzes and structured live practice role-plays that occur towards the end of their onboarding period. SS: I think those are four fantastic areas to focus on for retention, Mark. Now we’ve talked a lot about a lot of the good that you’ve done. Now, obviously with anything, there’s a little bit of bad and ugly. So, what are some of the top challenges that sales enablement professionals can face when designing or implementing onboarding programs and what are the strategies that you would recommend to overcome those obstacles? ME: Challenges, there are so many to choose from. So, I would say if I were to choose the top two challenges that you would deal with when building out kind of large programs like these and specifically onboarding programs. The number one challenge that you’re probably getting is the necessary time. So from all those relevant stakeholders that you’re either dealing with in the discovery process, and then to review the learning journeys before each new cohort, and then the time of the many subject matter experts who are the instructors within the program itself, that’s a lot of time that you’re borrowing from the organization to then give back to these new hires. Now I’m a one-man team up until relatively recently. So, to teach four to six classes a day and develop content, which evolves as quickly as our business does, would be an impossible task for one person. So, we have instructors from across the entire company, ranging from the CEO down to employees who themselves just recently finished ramping, but are really good at one aspect of what you want to make sure is imparted on these new hires. So, the problem in which we’re talking about, or the challenge would really be time. Time from everyone across the organization is a very big ask. Now the way in which I go about overcoming that challenge and how I would suggest to other people is basically outlining first, specifically, what is it? Everyone needs a cover from every instructor. What are the specific things that I want to make sure and I want to make this as easy and simple for them as possible? I will link resources for them. I’ll schedule all their sessions. I’ll run, train the trainer classes so that they understand kind of the foundations of teaching and how to ensure that knowledge is retained and specifically how to teach skills relatively to knowledge differently. So, we impart all of that knowledge on them. And then we take away all the administrative work that goes along with being an instructor. And we say, we’re going to do that for you, we want to make your life easier because I know that taking someone’s time is an incredibly hard thing to ask of someone. The second challenge is the content. So again, we’re talking about a business that evolves incredibly quickly and therefore it becomes very difficult to ensure that all content across all roles of onboarding, something like 120 hours of content per new hire, is constantly up to date. And there’s a cohort every two weeks. So, there’s a lot of opportunity for something to go out of date and then be rebuild into the new program. So, the way in which we overcome this obstacle are through various feedback loops. So, first there are the new hire surveys reviews of the overall program, and then ones that are placed every few days that are snapshot surveys of specifically the classes and lessons that you had within these two to three-day periods. And it’s really within those individual snapshot surveys that I get an understanding of, “What are the instructors that are doing an outstanding job?” That every single new hire, is just like, “I can’t wait for this class for the next cohort because I loved it.” And which are the ones where we get ratings, where we need to go, “Maybe we need to tweak how this class is taught. We need to change up how we’re imparting this knowledge or the type of content or instructor that we have to teach it.” And then finally, the last way in which we overcome this is by reviewing the overall program before every single cohort with that hiring manager. And we focus on what were the changes that we made, what was the feedback that I got inside of those surveys and what changes based on that, those inputs based on that information, do we want to make, knowing that this becomes the new template going forward? And it’s just those constant iterations that allow us to on an ongoing basis, make it a relatively light kind of task to administer it. SS: That’s fantastic. I love that you guys are using feedback. I want to talk a little bit though about the partnership, obviously that’s required with frontline managers. What does that look like throughout the onboarding process? ME: Yeah, so partnership with the frontline managers is incredibly important. The managers are the most important part of ensuring that these new hires are successful the moment they pass the certification and “go live.” So I try and make, again, the time commitment for them as light as possible, taking care of scheduling classes, reporting on new hire ramp progress as time goes on and making it simple and easy for them to give me all the information I need before, during, and after each cohort. But I think what we really want to get to here and correct me if I’m wrong is, is a deeper level of, “Okay, what is the manager involvement like on an ongoing basis within the program?” SS: Yes, absolutely. I think that that would be fantastic for our audience. ME: So, manager involvement starts at the stakeholder interview level. So, as it relates to that new role, so expectations and reviewing the current iteration of that roles program. Now, many of our managers are also instructors for the onboarding program itself and therefore, along with getting their feedback and aligning with them on the content structure and prep for their classes, then during the onboarding, I also update the managers on how their new hires progressing. Between the ways in which I interact with them and engage with them, the mentors that we have for them and the assignments and quizzes throughout the program, we’re able to give pretty good, healthy snapshots or qualitative reviews to the managers on how that new hire is progressing. And this way they’re aware of what’s eventually coming their way the second that this person does or does not pass their certification. Now, when it comes to the roles where there is a certification. So, specifically those account executive roles, those customer success roles, the ones in which they’re going to be engaging with our prospects or our clients, the manager is also the one who’s responsible for deciding whether that new hire is ready to go alive or needs extra training. In which case we’ll usually, they’ll send it back to us and we’ll do an extra week of kind of in-depth, you know, mock reviews or whatever it is specifically that they’re tripping up on. We’ll give them a little bit more of a chance to kind of focus in on that individual aspect. Then post onboarding I’ll report on the new hires to their managers and leadership on how they’re ramping relative to the benchmark of expectations that we set very clear and transparently in the beginning, both with that new hire and then with the manager, we review on a quarterly basis to ensure that we’re keeping that both realistic up-to-date and forward-looking for where the business is. SS: I love that. I think that those are five really great steps. So, Mark, in closing, and this has been a fantastic conversation. I have to ask the question around metrics and measuring success. So how are you doing that? How are you measuring the success of your onboarding programs? ME: Yeah. So, I’m going to break that question up into two parts. So, there’s the success of the onboarding experience for the new hire and whether the onboarding program itself led to them ramping successfully. So, for that first measurement of success, what I’m looking at is really a trending satisfaction score of the overall program. So during the program, I’m tracking the new hires in their completion of assignments and mock role-plays, but to see their satisfaction score, it’s really a key KPI at the end of every single new hires program they take this in-depth survey that they go over the entire program, what stood out to them, how much they feel that they retained and really their enjoyment and satisfaction of the experience in which they had over those three weeks or a full month. Now, the second measure of success, which is really success over ramp. And for this, I have milestone tracking for all client and prospect facing roles that I report to leadership on a monthly basis over a new hires ramp that includes both leading and lagging indicators of performance. So, I’ll use an AE as an example, an account executive, a seller role. So, I track on a monthly basis, a few metrics relative to expectations that we know would lead to them being successful in their role if they execute effectively. So, the first one your brand new, you just finished onboarding. It is your first live month. You are excited. And for that, I’m tracking your activity, the number of meeting books from that activity on a weekly basis, and then opportunities that are created from those meetings, then eventually on an ongoing basis, you’ll start seeing those opportunities, bear fruit from pipeline generation. Then once we get that high-level up of what I can control as a new hire sales rep in my first live month, then we start on a monthly basis, start tracking conversion rates from those opportunities from early stages in Salesforce to later stages in Salesforce. And then finally we get to the tracking of pipeline coverage ratio to quota as they get towards late-stage and we really hit where a sales cycle would typically end. And then days to second close one deal, days to full quota attainment and average contract value for that individual rep. And then we take all that up, we add a qualitative score from the manager themselves, and then we benchmark it relative to what everyone else who is at this exact point ramp as this current employee is and are they outperforming, underperforming? And why do we think that is what are areas in which they’re doing outstanding jobs and that we can ensure that what they’re learning or doing really successfully scaled out to the rest of their team or the rest of the organization. SS: This has been fantastic. Mark. I am so incredibly impressed with what you are building over at Bizzabo. ME: Thank you so much for having me. I’m a huge fan. So, this has been a real honor for me. SS: Thank you so much, Mark. To our audience, thanks for listening. For more insights, tips, and expertise from sales enablement leaders, visit salesenablement.pro. If there’s something you’d like to share or a topic you’d like to learn more about, please let us know. We’d love to hear from you.

Don Frericks knows the exhilaration of working with a good leader and the unrelenting pain of working for a bad one. In over 30 years of corporate leadership and coaching experience, he has developed the reputation as on outstanding leader, a passionate advocate for personal and corporate change, and a well-loved personal leadership coach for various Fortune 2000 organizations and industries. Questions Could you share with us a little bit about your journey, just tell us how it is that you’ve really got into this leadership path, were you put into it by accident, did it happen by chance or is this something that was a passion for you from you were a young person? Could you share with us maybe two or three character traits that you think leaders need to have, especially now. So, what are those two or three qualities that leaders need to have to ensure that during this time they're still maintaining a high level of customer centricity internally and externally? How do you stay motivated every day? Can you share with us what's the one online resource tool, website, or app that you couldn't live without in your own business? Are there any other books that have had a great impact on you? Maybe a book you read recently, or even a book you read a very long time ago that has still had a great impact on you? Could you share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're either really excited about something, maybe that you're working on to develop yourself or your people? Where can listeners find you online? Could you share with us a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote because it kind of helps to keep you refocused.   Highlights   Don shared that he loves it because it's not a normal path. He actually had three wonderful experiences working for tremendous leaders, people that just were inspiring that you wanted to follow them because they were so good with people and they helped you be the best that you could be. And what was interesting in each one of those occurrences, they were the one that hired him, but they were gone in his experience six months later. And it was so abrupt and so quick that it was a bit shocking. And the next leader that came in behind them was not as good.   And in fact, in a few cases, they were horrible; the kind of people you would say would be the bad bosses of the world. And it was such a night and day difference. It shocked him to his very core and he noticed his own behaviour, his own performance slipped. He noticed that he didn't like it; he wasn't engaged like he used to be. He worked at a very high level, he puts a lot of energy and heart into his work and he wasn't doing that with these other bosses. So, he really felt like there's something about great leadership and how it has a huge impact on other people.   And after that experience and through those experiences, he started studying tremendous leadership and extraordinary leadership and what the difference is between good and extraordinary and why it makes a huge difference on businesses.   Me: So it's definitely been in your core, in your DNA from very early. Now, I see here on your bio also that you’re the author of the book, Best Boss Ever: The 5 Steps to rapidly develop yourself into the leader everyone wants to follow. And this podcast is called Navigating the Customer Experience as you know. One of the things I've found in the years of being a customer service trainer is that leadership is very critical in customer experience because if the leaders are not on board with delivering a quality experience both internally, because it starts from within, and then of course it flows over into the external, you're going to have a lot of challenges in the organization.   Don agree that Yanique is right on track with thinking how dynamic a situation can be internally as he’s sure you've seen many times where people have talked about the power of serving the employees so that they can serve the customers so well. Great leaders today get that, they understand that their service of their people internally needs to be taken to the next level. And that probably means getting to know your people at a level where you understand their emotional needs and understanding how they're dealing with all the challenges with the pandemic and the other things that are happening in our environment.   So, they're missing the point and they're missing an opportunity to connect heart to heart with their own employees. And that will prevent their employees from reaching out to the customer in such a way that that experience, as you're an expert in is at the highest level. And so we have to take care of our people and that's the leader's job.   Don shares that he thinks one of the most important aspects of extraordinary leadership is the ability to inspire and motivate others to high performance, Zenger, Folkman. John Zenger and Joe Folkman have done a tremendous amount of research in this regard. And they've looked at over a hundred thousand leaders around the world and from their research and their data, they have shown that statistically inspiring and motivating others to high performance is the most important aspect of extraordinary leadership.   So, it's one of those things that you'd say, “Well, that makes sense because when I'm inspired and motivated, I do my best work.” But as a leader, “What is it that I actually do to inspire and motivate others?” He’s sure the listeners have that question like, “How do I do that at a high level?”   And the number one trait that they have uncovered is making the emotional connection, similar to what he was just saying. Leaders today need to sometimes push aside their performance metrics and all of their meetings and the policies and procedures and make the emotional connection with their people, the most important thing.   And one good way that he often coaches his clients to do that is to go down and think about each person that's on their team and to assess how much of a relationship they have with each and every one of them, high, medium, or low, and how much trust is there in that relationship, high, medium, or low, and then to ask themselves, what can they do to invest more in that person emotionally, what can they do to connect with them in a way that maybe they don't have a connection today? It's amazing what comes up when you start to think about it at that level, as if it's one of the most important things you can do as a leader.   Another thing that he thinks listeners might be interested in is that the conversation around what inspires and motivates us doesn't happen very often in business today, we're expected to bring our own inspiration and motivation to our work, and absolutely the best employees are highly motivated.   But it's fascinating how as you go through life, what gets your attention changes as you move from maybe a very young age to mid age, to older age things that are important change. And so, what inspires and motivates you today may be different and good leaders stay in touch with what inspires and motivates their people by connecting with the changes that happen to them throughout their life.   And so, one way to do that is just to have a candid and curious conversation with their employees and team members about what currently inspires and motivates them. He finds a lot of leaders miss this point, because it seems like something that they feel like they don't need to talk about, but that's the problem. It is absolutely an emotional need for people to talk about what inspires and motivates them.   Me: And you want people to also feel very comfortable sharing with you because I may not feel comfortable sharing with you what motivates or inspires me if I don't trust you, which is what you alluded to at the beginning.   A big part of leadership is getting people to connect with you, but also for them to trust you. In terms of what inspires you, it means you're getting very vulnerable about what you like and what you don't like. And you typically feel more comfortable sharing that information with people who you feel you can trust, would that be fair to say?   Don agreed and stated that he loved the way Yanique put that together. Without that foundation of trust that you're speaking of, it is very hard to have a meaningful discussion about anything that's close to our heart, especially the things that inspire and motivate us. Vulnerability is absolutely a key and it's one of those skills that he finds a lot of leaders actually have to work at, it doesn't come natural for some reason, it seems like we've learned that when we get into the business world, we actually become less vulnerable. We become more professional, so to speak. That's not what people are looking for, they're looking for your heart, they're not looking for your professionalism.   Me: Why do you think leaders who are able to pretty much get a high level of productivity from their teams. There are some leaders who are not able to get that level of productivity. So, to give you an example. Yesterday I had a friend that called me and she said that her hairdresser has an employee, the young lady does really, really good in terms of her technical skills is amazing and the business owner cannot imagine this person not being in her business.   However, when I spoke to the owner, she said to me, the lady’s interpersonal skills are extremely poor. She doesn't know how to talk to people; she says things that comes over to be very disrespectful. The clients don't really like dealing with her, but she, the business owner cannot imagine her business without this person in it. And so, she wanted to know if I think training could fix this person. So, from a leader perspective, if you got a call like this, from a person like this, what would you recommend?   Don shared that his gut says that he'd like to have more information about this employee. However, just the way that you posed the case study, it sounds as though the employee has been able to perform their job without meeting some of the expectations of the job around treating the customer with respect and communicating with them at a high level.   And so, if someone's gotten away with underperforming in a certain aspect of their job, it really, to him, it seems to land on the business owner in this particular case. And the question he would have to her is like, “Are you willing to hold her accountable to a higher level, a higher standard of interaction with the customer?” If they're not, he wouldn't even waste the time on doing training or coaching or anything like that.   He thinks it starts with the business owner establishing clear expectations with all employees, not just this employee about how customers will be treated and the customer experience, and then literally holding them accountable. And if people can't do what we expect them to do, and we think they're valuable employees, then yes, training could be helpful, but only after expectations have been set. And after they attempt to hold people accountable to those expectations, what were your comments to her?   Me: So I asked her a series of questions. I asked her how long was she working with her? Before she hired her, did she get a background check to get any recommendations for how it is that she performed in previous employment? To which she said, no, she didn't have that. But then the young lady was working with her already. So to some extent there is really no recovery where that is concerned because you have firsthand how it is she's performing in any case.   Then I said to her, it sounds to me like some of the challenges you're having is not necessarily with her competency to do the job, but her attitude. And if you've spoken to her and you've indicated to her that this type of behaviour is not acceptable, your customers are not in agreement with how she's responding to him.   And she still continues to repeat the same behaviour, I'm not sure if any amount of training is going to help because at the end of the day, she has to make an intentional effort to ensure that her communication is one of the standard that you are expecting her to deliver to customers, even if she's the greatest shampooer or whatever the technical competence is required to ensure that customers walk out feeling that the service they came for was good.   But with that tangible service comes the soft side of it; “Did she pull my hair too hard? When she was speaking over me, was she speaking too roughly to me? Did she ask me questions in a tone that was just not very accommodating?” All of those things contribute to the entire experience, even if when you're washing the hair, you give it a really good wash. If how you're doing it is poor, then it takes away from the whole service experience. So, my concern was that if it's an attitude issue, I'm not sure training can fix it.   Don agreed and he was hoping that Yanique might be going that direction. It's very difficult to train for attitude and if it isn’t attitude, no problem as Yanique suggests it might be. He thinks training can be a waste of time. He did a lot of training and development throughout his career for over 20 years and he was always amazed at how little behaviour change followed training and he thinks a big part of it was what you're saying is that if people don't want to change, if they don't want to do something at a better higher level, they won't no matter how much training we actually give them.   So you're onto something, there is no doubt training does not make people change. People make people change. And he thinks that's the hardest part of leadership. And that's the hardest part of customer service is that our behaviours have to change to do it at a high level. And have you read the book Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear?   He hopes that listeners will get a copy of that. He thinks James Clear does a great job talking about our habits and what you can do to change them. And if you want to be a great leader, if you want to be a great customer service manager or great at customer service, it does require us to get better. And that means to him, changing habits, that book can be very helpful.   Me: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, the reality is our success is based on the habits that we have. So, the habits that you build upon every single day. I recently did a Facebook live and the guest was talking about changing habits and one of the questions he asked me, which was so profound Don. He said to me, you noticed how since coronavirus and the pandemic, everybody has basically had to develop a new habit overnight wearing of masks because I'm sure you were not wearing a mask prior to March 13th.   So, then he says to me, where do you keep your mask? So I said, to be honest with you, I keep it in my car because over the first few weeks I kept on leaving it, I would reach to my destination and I would say, why do I look/feel out of place?   And then I'm like, “Oh, I left my mask at home and I'm not going to turn back to get it.” So in order to ensure that I always have it, I keep it in the car because I'm not wearing it anywhere. As you know, I'm not wearing it at home. So it's clearly when I'm going on the road. And he said, you were able to develop that habit because you built it on top of other habits that you have so that you could ensure that it now became a part of your routine.   And, you know, when I looked at it from that perspective, I said, you know, that's a very good point. Because I had to find a way to incorporate this into my normal activities to ensure that it became, as he said, a part of my routine, where do you keep your mask Don?   Don shared that he keeps his mask in the car as well. He loves Yanique’s comment about habit stacking. And he thinks that's one of the things that James Clear points out. If you stack your habits, it's a much easier way to start a new habit rather than starting at all by itself, because it needs some way to get going. That's why habits are so hard. What's the old saying about old habits are strong and jealous.   Me: If you're accustomed to doing something for a very long time, and the reality is human beings, they put up a lot of resistance to change. When it's new, it's like, why should we do it this way? Even with these virtual experiences that we're all having now, predominantly my business has been operating from home for quite some time. Even before COVID, I decided to get rid of my office space and just operate from home.   And so, even when COVID came in, it wasn't a hard adjustment for me to start working from home. But people who are accustomed to going into an office from 9-5 every day, I've spoken to quite a few of my friends and even colleagues who say they don't necessarily like working from home, they prefer the blended approach, or they want to go back out to work because they miss the interaction.   And the reason I think they're saying that is because it's new, it's different; they're not accustomed to it. It makes them feel uncomfortable. And that change makes it very difficult for us to adjust. But then I've had clients who said that they've actually had a higher level of productivity from their team members since they've been working from home versus when they were physically in the space.   Don stated that he fully understands what Yanique is speaking of. And he thinks we're seeing such a change, a rapid change in the way that we do work, it's amazing. He wants to go back to what Yanique said about attitude. He wants to make sure that listeners really get the power of this. He also had a recent customer service experience where he was going through a fast food line at a restaurant to get some dinner for his grandkids.   And as he was doing that, he recognized right away that the speed of the service was very good. And he was very pleased with how quickly they were able to take his order and get him his food. But he also noticed there was something else that was happening that really delighted him. And it was an experience where the individual who was taking his order was willing to be personable with him and ask him some questions and also allow him to ask them some questions, because there was a little bit of a wait time before he can move on to the next point in the service line.   And he really enjoyed that because they became human with one another. There wasn't just an order being placed and an order being received. It was two people talking and he thought this young person has a great attitude back to your point of service because they wanted to connect with him. And he just thought that was so powerful.   He can't underestimate the power in customer service of people being interested. And he loves the word curious, and that's good, the curiosity word is so good for all of us leaders as well as customer service providers.   When asked how he stays motivated, Don stated that that's a great question. It's very simple for him and maybe it won't even resonate that much with your listeners because he’s going to give you an answer, it's called purpose.   He believes that his purpose in life is to change the world one leader at a time. And what he’s trying to do is bring greater, better leaders into the world because the world right now desperately needs good servant leaders that can bring a higher level of performance in all aspects of our society. We're so desperate for people to be peacemakers and to find ways for the world to live more in harmony, where we can take care of each other.   And so his purpose shows up every time he wakes up in the morning and he’s getting started to begin his day, he lives his life to be on purpose. And even during the difficult periods where maybe there's challenges that he didn't expect or challenges with certain clients or clients situations, he doesn't let it get to him because he recognize that it's one aspect of him being able to fulfill his purpose.   It's not a difficulty that he needs to dread, it's just something he needs to work around so that he can fulfill his purpose. And he thinks every time that he’s on purpose and I can tell you (Yanique) live her life on purpose, he'd like to hear how Yanique frames her purpose. It just makes such a huge difference in terms of the way that you do the work that you do.   Me: It does. It's funny you said that because when I started this business back in 2007, 2008, I started it because I thought about what it is that I really like to do. But I also started it because I also thought about in Jamaica, which is where I live and I was born and I've spent all of my life, customer service is challenging.   So, Jamaican people are extremely warm and friendly, but I find that in a lot of the service businesses, you don't necessarily get that warm and friendliness. It's almost like you feel like you're begging them to serve you. And so I started to think, how could I contribute to improving the quality of service in Jamaica and globally? And I started to think about a cartoon that I used to watch when I was a little girl called Care Bears. I don't know if you know it.   So my vision for the company is “To Create a More Caring World.” And it was inspired through the Care Bears. If I could be the Care Bear with that little beam on my tummy. And I'm beaming this light out to basically, as you said to change one lead at a time, but to change each company or each team member at a time that they are converted to ensuring that in every interaction they have, whether they stay at that company that I train them in, or they leave and start their own business, or they go and work for someone else. They always ensure that they deliver a high quality of service, because I think if our service experiences improved, we'll all have a better quality of life.   You'll go through the day and you will feel like, “Oh my goodness, I had a great day today. I had such good interactions. People were so accommodating. Things ran so smoothly.” And of course, if you have fewer obstacles, then you'll be less stressed. So, that's really my purpose every day to create a more caring world and I'm that Care Bear that's basically trying to beam my little light across on everyone. So yeah, I do get you when you say; it's all about your purpose.   Don agreed that it's all about your purpose and thanked Yanique for having that purpose too. What a beautiful way to live your life and to be a role model for your area. Hopefully the listeners are like, “I get that. I understand exactly why you're doing that.” He sometimes finds people will say, “Well, I'm glad you have that purpose, but that's not my purpose.” He always says, “We'll fine, find your purpose. You don't have to have my purpose.”   Me: Just figure out what it is that really drives you. There are days does, I talk to people many times and they say to me, “How do you get up and do the same thing every day? Don't, you get bored of it? Don't you get frustrated?” But I don't because I understand what my why is and it drives me every single day. Every, every article I read, if I watch something on TV, if I'm talking to someone, it all goes back to service, how we serve each other.   And so, I'm always looking for opportunities. I'm always stimulated, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not excited about doing something new in the customer experience spectrum. So I think at the end of the day, if you're really passionate about what you're doing, then of course it doesn't seem like work and you don't get de-motivated or on days when your energy might not be there, you still have some desire to want to do it because you're really passionate about it.   Don shared that he often will do some self coaching, as you kind of talk to yourself in your own head. And he will always say when he feels like there's a level of frustration or de-motivation, or just the challenge of getting through everyday life, he'll say, “Don, get on your purpose. Get back to your purpose. If you feel like you're frustrated, that means that you're just not paying enough attention to your why.” As you just called it out.   And he’s sure the listeners in Jamaica and around the world are like, “Thank you for what you do.” Without doing what you do, other people would not be telling their story. So this is why what you’re doing is so powerful.   When asked about an online resource that he could not live without in his business, Don shared that it's such a tough question because he uses so many. He was going to recommend to the listeners to go to www.zengerfolkman.com because they have so many resources around leadership.   There are many, many theories about what makes a good leader. And there are many, many books around leadership. It's like a giant ocean and he finds it overwhelming, many of his clients had done, he doesn't know what to do. There are too many things for him to focus on as a leader. And he completely gets that. And so what he often says is like, “Well, why don't we do a 360 and get some feedback from the people that you lead, including your boss and your peers. And let's ask them how you lead today and get their feedback.”   And Zenger Folkman has this wonderful 360 degree assessment that allows leaders to get an accurate perception of how other people see them as a leader, with that, and then you can determine how to put together an action plan to build new skills or to build the strengths that you currently have. And so they've written a lot of great articles and white papers about that, and all of those things reside on their website, he would highly recommend that they do that.   When asked about books that have had a great impact on him, Don shared that he used to read a whole book. He hardly does that anymore. He often read the first chapter, the last chapter, and then he'll skim read around the middle of the book a bit. A book that he cannot seem to put down, he goes back to repeatedly over and over as a very simple book, but it's called Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry.   What a great resource, one, because it gives you that self assessment at the back of it. So you can go online and take a self assessment to kind of determine your emotional intelligence level. But two, because it gives you 66 great suggestions of how you can build your emotional intelligence through new behaviours or changing your behaviour.   And he loves that because it's very application oriented. He love books that can get him to move in a direction that allows him to be a better person, better leader. So, he thinks Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry is one of those resources that the listeners could greatly benefit from.   Don shared that he really has been inspired by their conversation today about purpose. And he’s trying to put together a masterclass on how to discover your purpose because he finds that many people have not. They haven't had the fortunate experience he and Yanique have had where they actually have been able to define what it is. It seems to him that most people say, “I'm not exactly sure what my purpose is, and I don't know how to find it.”   What's the best way to decide that purpose is hard to discover. It is certainly something that is discoverable, but it doesn't just plop into your lap because you say, “I need to know my purpose.” It takes quite a bit of work and effort and reflection and searching and soul searching. And he just would like to help people in the future with a masterclass of some sort, where they could have a methodology to be able to discover what their purpose is.   Me: So how far along is that master class? Cause I'm sure I could recommend it to quite a few people.   Don shared that he has the outline. He’s just trying to figure out and actually testing some of the things that he has put into the outline with some people that are in that stage of discovery and asking them to give him feedback, like, “Was this helpful? What worked, what didn't work for you?” He finds that the discovery process for purpose seems to be pretty highly customized, so he’s having a tough time finalizing the approach because he thinks it has to have enough options to it, a variability to allow people to kind of modify the process to their personality and their style.   Me: Do you have a Facebook group?   Don shared that he doesn’t have a Facebook, he almost do everything through LinkedIn. He doesn’t have a particular LinkedIn group that he has sponsored yet. He shared that may that’s what he needs to do with purpose.   Me: That would be a great idea because then you would definitely be getting people who are specifically aligned with what you are trying to achieve. And then you'd be talking to the right people.     Don shared listeners can find him at – Website – www.donfrericks.com             LinkedIn – @donfrericks Don: Allow me to offer a gift to your listeners; the first chapter of my new book Best Boss Ever: https://bit.ly/DonFrericks   Don shared that it's interesting that he read this right before they went online together today and it's often called the Serenity Prayer. He thinks it's actually a great quote, but it's about helping reframe the things that we cannot change and the things we can change and helping ourselves stay focused on the things that we can change and trying to find the strength to do that.   It's easy to get spun up today and the way that the entire world is demanding attention and the unrest and the racism that exists and all the frustration that people are experiencing with the pandemic. And many of those items we cannot directly change, but what we can change is our attitude and our emotional attachment and what we get involved with and what we don't get involved with.   And he thinks one way to make the world a better place is to focus on the three things that you stand for is to live, love and laugh. If you bring that out, that's something that we can all control, how we live, how we love, how we laugh. And so he thinks the serenity prayer to him makes all kinds of difference and it's a good reminder to focus on what we can control.   Me: It's actually a prayer that I revert to us from time to time as well. It reminds me of the law of attraction. Whatever you think about comes about. So, if you really put these affirmations and record or repeat these different positive things on a daily basis, you're actually intentionally feeding your mind with positivity and not focusing on all the things that as you said, you don't really have any control over. So you really want to focus on the things that you can control and try to be a positive agent of change in those areas.       Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners     Links   Best Boss Ever: The 5 steps to rapidly develop yourself into the leader everyone wants to follow by Don Frericks Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry     Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

This week I am abundantly grateful to interview Rob Oliver from the Pittsburgh area. Interested in having Rob speak at your church, school, organization or company? Connect with Rob at YourMotivationalSpeaker.com He's a best selling author, award winning speaker & podcaster with a tremendous backstory of reengaging following a paralyzing body surfing injury Watch on YouTube Rob's podcast is LearningFromSmartPeople.com "At the age of 21, I was involved in a body surfing injury which left me paralyzed from the chest down with limited use of my arms and hands. This "new reality" forced me to assess who I am as a person, how I engage the world and what is my path to success. After 20 years in the advocacy world, I decided to launch out into the sea of self-employment as an entrepreneur. I started my own motivational speaking business and was soon traveling internationally and receiving recognition locally (I received the annual "Best of…" Award as the top rated motivational speaker in my hometown of Pittsburgh. Friends told me that I should write a book about my experiences and after much prodding, I wrote my autobiography "StillWalking." After struggling to find a publisher, I decided to expand my entrepreneurial enterprise and created my own publishing company, IX Press. Through that company I have published my autobiographical sequel, "Still Falling", and a children's anti-bullying book, "Who, Me? Yeah, You!" When the COVID-19 lockdown occurred, I decided to make the best of being stuck at home and started a podcast called "Learning from Smart People". Although I am a lifelong learner, the only way for me to increase my knowledge is to talk with people who know more about a topic than I do. Guests on the show are a mixture of ordinary people and national experts, all of whom have something to share.

In this episode, we will be hearing from Rob Oliver, who will be taking on a number of episodes over the next little while on subjects pertaining to the new book he is writing. Rob lives in White Oak, Pennsylvania (just outside of Pittsburgh). He is a speaker, author and podcaster. He is in fellowship at the McKeesport Gospel Hall, and a proud father of triplets who tell him that he knows too many "Dad Jokes”. He has written three books, "Still Walking" and "Still Falling" which are autobiographical as well as "Who, Me? Yeah, You!" which is a children's anti-bullying book. He is the host of his own podcast which is called "Learning from Smart People" (It's for leaders, entrepreneurs, and lifelong learners). The subject of his series is, “Still following”. This is his introductory episode. We look forward to including more episodes from Rob over the next few weeks and months.

How Nikki Harman went on a journey from being homeless to practicing mindfulness. Plus the best food for mental clarity.Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:From Homelessness To MindfulnessIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food for mental clarity and focus. This food literally raises our brain function to its maximum and it's really easy to find.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.I am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Nikki Harman, who has an amazing story to tell. Not only has she been through quite a lot in her life, but what she does now is super exciting as well. So I really can't wait to dive into it, and so let's do it!Nikki welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast!Nikki: Hello! Thank you for having me.Me: You're very welcome!Nikki's storySo you've got quite an incredible story and I'm actually quite honored that you're happy to share it with us and everything. I know that your story, I believe your story begins when your parents split up, is that right? And you were about eleven, is that right?Nikki: Yes, so when I was eleven my parents split up. And at the time just before they split up I was living in a really lovely six-bedroom Victorian house in a nice seaside town. My parents had good jobs and all was going fairly well, but they split up. And because the house we were living in came with the job that my dad had, we lost the house.Me: Oh!Losing everythingNikki: So we lost everything basically. My dad moved to London to go and find work, and my brother, myself and my mom moved into this temporary accommodation, a bed and breakfast.Me: How old was your brother?Nikki: My brother was eight.Me: Sorry?Nikki: I was eleven and he was seven. So it was from the age of eleven to twelve that we were in this temporary accommodation. For a year before we were rehomed into a council flat, so my brother was seven and eight.Me: Wow yeah. What did your father do during this time? Did he just like go to London and not look back, or...?Nikki: He came down when he could. Although he was working most of that time. And I remember only really seeing him every few weeks. Probably every four to six weeks, an occasional day trip down, a Saturday. Most of the time it was just me and my mom and my brother.Me: And so your mom, she wasn't at the time of the split...She was looking after you? Did she have any other work or a job?Nikki: No, she didn't work. It kind of broke her, this whole situation. She wound up having quite a significant mental breakdown over it. She became quite distant and disengaged with us. It was just really quite difficult because I remember what it was like just before we moved out saying goodbye.Packing your life awayWe had two beautiful cats and a couple of cockatiels and we had to rehome them. Just packing all of our belongings, packing everything away. Everything in my room, all my toys, my books, my stereo, my tapes, cassette tapes. All my music, all that kind of stuff, it all had to be put away. And I felt like I was packing away a part of me, really.That was my room, that was just me. So what it must have been like for my mom to pack everything in the house away and not know when next we might see it all.We were told initially that the law is that temporary accommodation means four to six weeks before you are rehomed. Clearly that doesn't happen now and it didn't happen then. And so we didn't really know how long it would be. It was kind of assumed at the time that it would be a short-term thing. But it became clear very quickly that that wasn't going to be the case. So by the time we moved into this room that had just a bed and two bunk beds in...Me: That was the B&B?Nikki: Yes that was in the B&B where we were living, that was where we lived, that was our home. And we were able to use the dining room for breakfast with the other guests, we'd get an evening meal.Life in a B&BBut the B&B itself was quite run down and the people there I think had sort of a prejudiced attitude towards us, because we were council tenants. We weren't normal paying B&B guests, so they treated us quite differently.When there were other guests staying, we got better quality food. But if it was just us, it was very much sugar puffs in the morning, a piece of toast. And then in the evening it was often like a tinned stew or tinned something. It wasn't proper cooked, home-cooked food. Tinned potatoes...They would be as cheap as much as they could. We didn't really have much in the way of quality food.But I was grateful really for having had anything to eat at all, because it was quite the case that we didn't get lunch during the weekends and school holidays because the B&B didn't provide that for us. And my mom didn't have a job, she didn't have money, she didn't have the inclination really to be wanting to do very much in the way of supporting me and my brother. So we'd go quite hungry throughout the days when we were not at school.Me: So how could...I mean, what I don't understand is how could the owner of a B&B have, you know, children in their home who don't have food. You know? Like when you're on school holidays, you're still in the B&B. They still see you every day, they know you haven't eaten anything. And yet they just don't feed you. I don't understand that.Nikki: No, I mean occasionally we'd get a jam sandwich.Me: Yeah. Oh boy.Being kept out of the wayNikki: Something like that. But they weren't like that, they weren't those kind of people. They had their own children anyway. So they were sort of preoccupied with them. They didn't really pay too much attention to us. And actually they didn't want us there. During the day we were kind of kept out of the way. Sometimes we'd be allowed to go and play in the garden with their children.Me: That's what I was going to ask, yeah, if you ever played with their children.Nikki: Yeah, we did, but not very much.Me: Did you have to like stay in the room or something?Nikki: Yeah, we stayed in the room a lot. Me: Wow.Nikki: So it just wasn't a very pleasant experience. And given that we were living in a seaside town....My mom, because of the way she was, didn't want us to go onto the beach. To get to this bed and breakfast we had to walk past the beach. And we were never allowed to go and play on the beach in the summer holidays.Me: Oh that's awful!So close yet so far from the beachNikki: We saw people playing with their sand castles and eating ice cream, and the smell of fish and chips everywhere you went. All these lovely things, and on a hot day just not being able to go on the beach because my mom didn't want us to do that. We would invariably be...we didn't go into town very much because mom didn't want to. But it would be to go into the lauderette to wash our clothes. So we'd sit there and then head back home.I'll never forget that, just not being able to play on the beach. And then having to go and sit in this room on lovely sunny days, and hear about all the real guests in the B&B going off and doing fun stuff. Where they'd been and what they'd been doing. It was all quite difficult.Me: I'll bet. And your mom, I think you said, was she like smoking? What did she do? You said she was like smoking all day or something?Nikki: Yeah, she was a smoker.Me: So you were in one room with a mom smoking all day. Ewww.Nikki: Yeah, not nice.Me: Oh my goodness. And so that lasted a year, yeah?Nikki: Yeah, so what happened...It was a year long in temporary accommodation.A cottage for the winterThe council put us in a what was called a winter let from about November to February time. February March time. So we were moved out of the bed and breakfast and into this tiny, tiny dilapidated, rundown cottage which... It just had frost on the inside of the windows. The only sort of heating was a tiny little fire in the lounge.My brother shared a bed with my mom and then I was in another room. So I was grateful to have my own space. But the sheets were wet from the cold in the house and the condensation.Me: So did you have to like sleep in your coats or something?Nikki: Yeah, it was along those lines. Clothes to put on. But my brother got whooping cough that winter as well, which just made it awful for him.Me: I'll bet.Nikki: The freezing cold and coughing. We could hear him coughing all night and wheezing, it was terrible.Life at schoolMe: And what about...Did you have...I mean, you were presumably going to school, right? How was it with the other kids at school? Did you make friends with anybody?Nikki: No, I became quite withdrawn at school because I didn't know how to begin to explain what was happening. A lot of what was going on at the time my mom didn't want us to talk about because she was ashamed. She'd lost everything. As I say, a single mom in a room, we were in this horrible winter let, no money, no home, her mental health was declining. She just didn't want to engage with anyone. And she's always been like that anyway but that compounded it, that exacerbated it at the time.One of the things she would always tell us was to not talk to other people about what was going on at home. So it was very difficult for me to express how I was feeling. I became very anxious, I was incredibly anxious. Because I just didn't know what to do for the best, and how to make the situation better. I wanted to make things better.Me: And you said you took on a parental role with your younger brother, is that right?Nikki: Yeah, very much so. It was all kind of, yeah, just wanting to make sure he was OK and that mom was alright. I'd be kind of quite hyper vigilant about my mom because I'd be worried that she was OK. So at school I'd just have this worry, and because of that, because of my behavior, my friends became quite distant. They didn't understand and I'd try and explain what was going on and how difficult things were.Homeless even with a roof over your headAnd there was that song, you know, The Streets of London? The song about homelessness. One of my friends at the time, who I'm sure didn't really understand how terrible things were for me at home. But she made a very snide remark about that song that we sang one day in our music class. She said, “Well you think you've got it hard. You should see what it's really like for the proper homeless people on the streets. You're not on the streets so you're not homeless”. It was that kind of attitude that they had.And it made me then think 'well no-one believes me. Maybe I am just making all this up. Maybe it isn't as bad as I think it is'. But actually I knew that things were terrible.I was declining at school, my grades were dropping, my concentration was terrible. As I said, I was always very anxious and worried that something terrible was going to happen.No dad and no moneyMe: And where was your dad during all this time. Because presumably he was working in London so he must have had some money, right?Nikki: Yeah, he had some money, some of it was going to Mum. But obviously he was paying rent on wherever he was living at the time and doing whatever. And my mom, I think because she smoked and she drank... The thing is that she would deny this vehemently now if she were sat here next to me. And I've confronted her about it in the past but she seems to remember that she didn't drink because we had no money. But I can remember her, I can specifically remember her drinking a lot and smoking a lot. So where that money was going I don't know. I had no contact with him really because, you know, mobile phones hadn't been invented, we didn't have a phone. We had the phone at the B&B when we were staying there. And in the winter let there was a phone box down the road that we went to on a Wednesday evening. He would phone us at seven o'clock, phone this phone box number and we would speak to him. But mostly it was my mom wanting to speak to him. So we got a little bit of time to chat then, but he didn't really know the main things that were going on at the time because I didn't want to worry him. I kind of just held it all in, really.Things start to get better at firstMe: And then how did it start to get better? Because I mean eventually I know that you got out of...you got into the council flat. And then after the winter let was that much better? Or how was that different?Nikki: Well after the winter let we moved back into the bed and breakfast again for about another four months.Me: A different one, yeah?Nikki: Back into the same one. Me: The same one? Oh!Nikki: The same place. Bar one week where they'd been booked so we stayed in the bed and breakfast next door which was lovely. The loveliest people there who cared for us and they were genuinely interested in what we were doing. And it was so sad to then have to go back next door after that. But yeah we were there until June eighty-seven.And then we moved to this beautiful, lovely, I say council flat. But it was like a Victorian building with beautiful views over the sea and large rooms everywhere. A very spacious flat. It was like the best sort of place you can imagine after being stuck in a B&B and a winter let to be able to have our own bedroom and our own space and all that kind of stuff.Me: Did the food situation get better at that point?Nikki: Not initially because Mum still didn't work. She was pleased that we were out of the bed and breakfast, but at that point the divorce started to come through. And so she was still going through her issues and she took quite a decline in her depression and her depressed state. I became increasingly worried about her.A harrowing trip home from schoolMe: Were you afraid that she might, you know, take her own life or something?Nikki: Well she did try once when she picked us up from school in her car.Me: With you in the car?Nikki: With us in the car, yeah. She would often be smelling of alcohol when she picked us up and sometimes she would be taking temazepan. So sometimes she would be quite drowsy at the wheel. I can remember having to kind of steer the car back on the road because she was kind of swerving a bit in and out.Me; That must have been scary.Nikki: It was very scary. But one particular day she was very agitated and upset about something. And when we drove back she took us on a different route to the way back home. We were going up some country roads and there was a coach in front of us. And she started putting her foot down and speeding up trying to get closer to this coach. She then just announced, “How would you like to go to heaven, kids?”Me: Oh wow.Nikki: And we both started screaming. I sat in the front and my brother was in the back.Me: How old were you then?Nikki: I was twelve at that point and my brother was eight. And I was turning to face my mom and holding my brother's hand in the back seat to try and reassure him. Putting my hand on my mom's arm to try and stop her, and shouting at her to stop and slow down. Just asking her to kind of know that we loved her, we didn't want to die, we wanted to help her and other people wanted to help her.Trying to think like an adultI can distinctly remember trying to think, 'What would an adult say if they were in this car now? What would an adult do to fix this problem?' That's what I remember thinking at the time, what would they do. So I was trying to knock the car out of gear to see if I couldn't do that... I was just pulling at her frantically, and something made her slow down.Me: Wow.Nikki: We headed back home, back into town. But she blamed us, that at that point it was all our fault that she was still alive because she wanted to die. Saying she'd never forgive us and all this kind of stuff that was just pointless.Me: Well and it made it doubly hard for you, right?Nikki: It did, but I just felt so worried for my mom. And when we got back, she then said, “Don't tell anybody that this happened. If you tell anybody, then you'll get taken away from me”.Me: Well you would, yeah.Nikki: I didn't, I didn't say anything.Back on solid groundBut I do remember getting out of the car and touching the ground with my hands. I had to have the front and the back of my hands on the ground because I felt like I'd gone to jelly at that point. The adrenalin had worn off and I was in shock. I just needed contact with the ground to know that I was safe. And then we went off into the garden and she went upstairs and it was never mentioned again. And, you know, again, trying to get my head round all of that with her...Me: Wow.Nikki: She denies that it ever happened, she doesn't remember it. Well she does, I'm sure she must have some recollection of that time in her life. But so she was very depressed.And then going into that flat, although it was great because we had our own space, it just increased our isolation. Because what happened was that she just locked herself away. And because it was coming up to the summer holidays again in eighty-seven, she just hid herself away and me and my brother were in the same situation. Looking after ourselves, and no food in the cupboards. Only what was packed from when we were living in our house, so we were basically helping ourselves.Foraging for foodThis might sound really disgusting, but we'd be really, really hungry and be raiding the cupboards and finding chocolate powder. We'd just eat spoonfuls of dried cocoa powder, chocolate powder. And golden syrup, mixing it with golden syrup to make like a yucky paste just to get something into us. We'd have cereal in the mornings and in the evenings a very basic meal that Mum might come out and make. But she often kind of forgot about us because she was in her own world of depression.Things were very difficult for a long, long time and slowly things improved. Slowly things got better for her and subsequently got better for us. She got herself a job...Me: And how do you think things got better? Like was there any specific thing that started to happen? Or was it just like time healing things?Nikki: I think possibly the fact that there were people...she was on someone's radar. I think one of the local church groups had found her and were trying to connect with her and make contact with her and just try to help her through her darkest days. And I do remember them coming round to see her and she wasn't that bothered by them particularly. But there was somebody there for her to talk to and that was the most important thing that she needed at that time, was an adult.Me: An adult, yeah.Nikki: And it was the most important thing for me and my brother because that meant that someone else was there to share our burden.Me: Oh yeah definitely, you didn't have to be the adult anymore, yeah. Wow.A slow recovery with people to talk toNikki: So it was just a very slow, gradual process. And then she met somebody and things got better from that perspective. You know, her self-esteem improved and she came out of her depression and got on an even footing. But it was over a very long period of time, it took a good...I'd say it took a good twelve to eighteen months for her to get herself on an even keel.Me: Well still though compared to some people that...I mean I know it wouldn't...it didn't feel quick to you, but if I hear twelve to eighteen months, like there are a lot of people that stay in the situation she was in for years and years. So it's a blessing that at least, you know, as horrible as it was, at least she did get out of it eventually, right?Nikki: She did. My mom's a very complex character and I'm not in contact with her anymore because of just the way she's behaved and treated me. And it's a very complex relationship that I have with her, but she never really wanted me. That was the basic...I kind of grew up with that knowledge that she wished I'd never been born. She would often say that to me. And she would often say, “I can't wait till you're eighteen so you can leave home” or “I wish you'd never been born”. You know, those kind of things would come up quite a lot.Trying to do the right thingBut I've always tried to do the right thing. I've always tried to be there and to be the model child that she wanted me to be. I was never good enough for her in her eyes, things like that. It was never going to work. My mom has taught me to be a good parent but by knowing the right way to do stuff rather than the wrong way to care for your children.Me: Yeah. For sure.Starting a businessWhat prompted you to start your business? Was it one incident in particular?Nikki: Well I'd started meditating twenty years ago after I qualified as a nurse. And I found that meditation worked really well for stress and for coping with everything that was going on. As a nurse in a busy hospital you see all sorts of things that affected me. I was quite affected by some of the things and I found that meditation was a really good tool. And when I was going through the difficult period with my husband before the divorce, before I made the decision to end the marriage I was trying to save it. Using meditation as a method of trying to keep my sanity and work through things.And I decided one of the outlets of doing that was writing a course to teach adults how to meditate. That's when I began. I started having groups of people round to teach my four-week course as an introduction into mindfulness and meditation and then it developed from there.My motivator for me when the marriage ended in 2014 was to put my energies into the business and into helping others go through difficult periods in their life by using meditation and mindfulness as a tool.Getting out of your comfort zoneSo I wrote a book called The Gem In The Dust which is about just sort of finding your light within you through whatever difficult period you're having to be able to... Imagine you're sitting in a ragged old sofa and you've got comfortable. You've found your groove in the sofa. And you have to make that choice one day. Whether or not to stay in that groove or to stand up and be uncomfortable for a while and push yourself out of your comfort zone to find out what's really going to work for you. Because you can sit and pretend all you like that your life is good, that your life is happy. But you know that somewhere inside you there's something not quite right. Or eating away at you slowly. Or making you depressed, or anxious or worried or fearful of change. Ultimately you can't ignore that.So The Gem In The Dust is about just being able to find that within you. That power within you to make changes in your life for the positive, for the good. And so I wrote the book and wrote a six-week course to go with it and now teach people that as well.Me: So is the book and the course...those are available from your website, right?Nikki: The book hasn't been published yet, I'm still looking for an author. I can teach the course and I've got my manuscript and I've kind of put it on a back burner for a little while. But I do need to get going with pushing it again and either self publishing or go down a publisher route. Because I want it to work, I want to get it published and I want to reach out to these people.Giving herself therapy by helping othersSo that was enabling me and kind of giving myself therapy throughout the whole sorry tale really of going through that period in my life. That's how the business started.Me: And then now you said that you're doing really amazing things with children, can you say a little bit about that?Nikki: Yeah, I love working with children. I became a Connected Kids tutor and trainer. Connected Kids is founded by this amazing woman called Lorraine Murray who started teaching the courses about twelve years ago. There are three levels and I did the first level which was just a one-day introduction into teaching kids meditation and loved it.I realized that my true passion was working with kids to teach them how to connect with themselves, how to regulate their emotions, how to understand their own world within them and make sense of the world around them and make empathic connections with others. And Lorraine Murray calls us the Peace Pioneers, you know, the people trying to generate peace and harmony and balance into our own world with kids as well. I then went off and became a tutor and then did the trainer module so I now teach adults how to teach children meditation through the Connected Kids courses.Nursing and mindfulnessAnd through my work as a nurse I'm incredibly passionate again about making mindfulness part of the clinical toolkit that we as healthcare professionals can use with children in hospitals and hospices and wherever. I did the introduction course, the Connected Kids introductory course specifically for healthcare workers who work with children in the clinical setting. So I'm hoping to get that running, get that off the ground quite soon. I'm just waiting for someone to take me up on it so that I can start teaching it. Because it does work, I've seen amazing results from teaching kids how to meditate and how to use mindfulness in their lives.Me: Yeah, I mean I think...one of the things that...another thing that really struck me with your story was some of the reasons why you wanted to share this story. And I would love if you would share those because I think it's really important.Nikki: My passion is about helping kids to develop resilience. To learn to be more emotionally connected to themselves and those around them. And to teach adults how to make that connection with their kids or the children that they work with.Being open about mental health issuesMe: But I mean you've also got reasons for sharing your personal story, right? I think you said something about breaking down barriers and addressing the sense of shame that comes... Do you want to say anything around that?Nikki: Yeah, I'm quite open about discussing these things. Because the more it's buried, the more mental ill health is hidden away, the more difficult it becomes to deal with it. And the more difficult it becomes to address it. I want to break down those barriers to reduce that stigma of mental illness. And to accept that it's OK to have a mental health problem. It's not something to be ashamed of. And the more you reach out and access help, the better your chances of recovering and getting treatment are for the problems that you've got. So the worst thing that anybody can do is to pull the shutters down and hide away and pretend that there's nothing wrong.Me: For sure.Where to find NikkiAnd so where can people go to find out more about you and what you're doing? I mean I'll put the links below obviously but it would be good if you could mention where they can find you.Nikki: Sure, well my website is inner space project dot com. And I'm also on Facebook, so it's Facebook dot com forward slash inner space project. I'm on Twitter as at the mindful nurse. So they've got those places they can find me and my website will have all the information about the courses I'm doing. I've got my blog as well which I write on which is inner orange dot blogspot dot com. That has a lot of my personal story on there and how it relates to meditation and mindfulness and wellbeing. But there's also a lot of information about meditation and mindfulness as well. And videos that I put up on there from time to time that you can watch too. So yeah, those are places you can find me.Me: Super! OK.Nikki's Food For Thought campaignOh and there's one last thing that we didn't actually mention, which was you're involved with something called food for thought?Nikki: Yes, Food For Thought is a campaign that I've started in the run up to the summer holidays. Based on again my own personal experience of homelessness where we just sort of... Just seeing the rise in the number of families that are accessing food banks and the 3-day emergency food parcels. They're really in food crisis... This goes up over the summer holidays because kids aren't getting their free school meals. And they're often missing meals as a result. Or families are working extra hard because they've got to pay childcare costs. So things like that. They're turning more to food banks than ever before.So the Food For Thought campaign is about raising that awareness and asking people just to donate something to put into their local food bank the next time they go shopping. Or to find their local churches who will be... most around the country do some sort of food collection for food banks.Finding a Food Bank near youMe: And so what's the best link? I'll link to Food Bank in the notes, but what would the url be for that?Nikki: Well there's the Trussell Trust which is a charity that do food banks. They've got four hundred and twenty food banks around the country. So that's one of them.Me: OK so people could just Google 'food banks', right? With their locality and then they would find the nearest food bank.Nikki: Food banks. That's right.Me: OK so that's probably the easiest way. Super! Well thank you so much for being here to share your story Nikki, I really appreciate it.Nikki: Thank you for listening.Me: You're very welcome. I mean I think what you're doing now is very amazing. I think it's so important to help kids be more resilient and self-confident and, you know, it's good for everybody really. But it's particularly nice for children.Thank you thank you! Bye for now!Nikki: You're welcome.The best food for mental claritySo, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you the best food for mental clarity. And that food is dark, leafy greens!The reason I mention dark, leafy greens is because they contain a lot of a particular element that is really important in many a food for mental clarity. That element is chlorophyll.Chlorophyll is said by some to be the 'blood' of plants. Because it's the green power that plants get by basically absorbing sunlight. So by taking in chlorophyll, you're literally taking in the energy of the sun.You can find chlorophyll not only in dark leafy greens, but also in superfoods like blue-green algae, spirulina, chlorella and wheatgrass, all of which have a very concentrated level of nutrients that really ramp up the oxygen levels in the body. They therefore are excellent foods to keep our minds sharp, focused and clear, so if you're faced with difficult decisions for example, these foods can literally help you focus.Many other benefits of chlorophyllNow I think you won't be surprised when I tell you that chlorophyll is good for so many things, it's ridiculous. I mean, if you've ever Googled 'help with' followed by any kind of health ailment or condition, chances are you've seen dark leafy greens listed as one of the foods to eat, because of their levels of chlorophyll. They're good for just about everything from arthritis, toxicity, cancer, digestive issues, oral health and more. I'll link to an article in the show notes that goes into more detail if you'd like to read more.How you eat leafy greens for more chlorophyllAs to how you eat these lovely green leaves, well salad is the obvious answer...but of course you can also blend a handful of spinach, kale, chard or other mild greens with some fruit to make a green smoothie. It doesn't have to taste green, and this is a great way to get greens into people who otherwise wouldn't eat them.I've got lots of recipes that use greens in my 5-Minute recipe ebooks, which I'll link to in the show notes as well.Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story. I hope you enjoyed it!And of course if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your particular situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESMore about chlorophyll here: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/other/health-benefits-of-chlorophyll.html5-Minute Mains and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/To find your local Food Bank (in the UK): https://www.trusselltrust.org/get-help/find-a-foodbank/About Nikki HarmanNikki Harman is a mindfulness coach, Connected Kids™ children's mindfulness tutor and trainer, and registered general nurse (RGN) working part time in the NHS. Specialising in working with children, Nikki has worked successfully with her clients. She also teaches adults to explore how to move out of their comfort zone to achieve a goal or dream. Her blog is based on professional information, mixed with personal experience. Nikki has written a course for healthcare professionals who work with children in the clinical environment to teach mindfulness techniques as part of their toolkit.www.innerspaceproject.comwww.innerorange.blogspot.comTwitter https://twitter.com/themindfulnurse Facebook https://www.facebook.com/innerspaceproject/

How Fiona Robertson travelled the world on a shoestring, discovering her life path as she went. Plus the best travel food ever!Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:Adventure was my missing nutrientIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best travel food I know. It's not only packed with nutrients and easy to carry everywhere, but it's also the best food to help eliminate parasites from the body.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.I am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Fiona Robertson, the Body Whisperer, who helps people understand who they want to be. Fiona has travelled all over the world and has some amazing adventures to share with us which I think you will find very inspirational.So Fiona, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast!Fiona: Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Thanks for inviting me. Nice to meet you here finally, face to face.Me: Yes, exactly! Cause we've known each other for a while, right? But it's been like an internet based...Fiona: An internet-based friendship, yeah, I know (laughs).Fiona's storyMe: Super! So I know that you've got, you've had quite a lot of adventures, but I think you mentioned that your taste for adventure perhaps came from your childhood. Is that right? You said you felt quite different as a child, can you maybe explain why?Fiona: Yeah, 4 years old we went to South Africa to live as a family. We kind of grew up with no shoes. So basically just kind of playing with lizards and centipedes and understanding all about nature and just wanting to be outside climbing trees, being a tomboy.A different way to grow upIt was just a different way for me to grow up. And when we moved back to the UK, I realized I was just different. I wanted to be outside playing in different ways and not playing giggly, schoolgirl games.Me: So how old were you when you moved back to the UK?Fiona: I was nine. Yeah, nine, nine and a half, something like that. Just kind of old enough, over the formative years, you know, that I'd really got a different country and kind of life under my skin. You know, I'd learnt Afrikans, I'd learned there was another language, I'd learnt there were different things going on. We were in South Africa at the time of apartheid as well, so you get a lot of different experiences, you know? We travelled there too on holiday of course.You see, I didn't think it was different, but it is, you're in a game park for a holiday and there's cheetas walking in the car park. It's exciting! And that's what my story's about, I didn't realize that adventure was so under my skin.Into the militaryMe: And so you said that you signed up to work with American Express in the military, is that right?Fiona: Yeah, one of my first jobs when I finished college and school and everything, I didn't want to go on to be an interior designer. That was my dream. But when they mentioned to me that it was four years foundational course and then I could specialize, I was like, “You've got to be kidding me! I can't sit still for that long! I've gotta be out there doing something!”I was interested in travel and so I got a job with American Express and it was on the American Air Force bases in the UK. So I started in High Wyckham and I was basically doing their travel tickets, their military travel tickets, then I ended up going and reliefing on the other different air force bases. So Greenham Common, Huntingdon, the ones in East Anglia, and just travelling around and doing that. Going and doing my travel, my specialist travel stuff for the American air force base.A different worldIt was cool because you walk into a different world. You go on the American an air force base and that land is owned by America. They have their happy hour, they have their bowling alleys, they have their shops, they have their own ways and cultures of doing things.Me: Wow. That just strikes me as really weird, you know? Like I've never, I mean even though I've lived in the UK for quite a while now. I've never been on any of the bases, and so part of me always just thinks, 'you're not contributing to the local economy', you know.Fiona: Oh they are, they don't all live on base, they live outside. But that was when I was nineteen, I started working on the American air force bases.The perfect job in travelLooking back now I just think what a perfect job for me. Working in travel and on an American air force base, you know?Me: So you organized travel for them, is that right?Fiona: I organized travel for them and basically with the old Prestel sets and the old ABC travel guide books we found air flights and all that kind of stuff. So I took all my exams for APTA travel. After that I went on to do incentive travel and after that I went on to sort of venue finding. Anything to do with people and traveling and moving. But incentive travel was very interesting, I liked that too.Me: What's incentive travel?Fiona: Imagine that you've got top salesmen and saleswomen and they're given an incentive. If they're the top team in the whole company in the whole of the country, then they get sent to some glorious destination and everything's paid for. So we used to organize all that, you know? With the ground agents and meals and restaurants. Down to exactly what kind of napkins would be on the table. It was like organizing a big wedding every few months, you know? Everything from the chauffeurs to the taxis to the kind of color-coordinating the flowers, everything.Import, export and video camerasMe: And then you went into a very different kind of business, right? With video cameras or something?Fiona: Yeah, I had another job in between time working for actually Ocean Pacific and I was on the export desk there. And I used to do all the certificates of export, and that was interesting for me. Because other people couldn't understand what these guys were saying, and I was just able to tune into what maybe the Greeks or the Spanish or the...You know, they were speaking pidgin English and wanting to be understood and then I was able to tune in somehow to what they were actually trying to tell me.And then I went on selling military cameras into industry, and again I worked with a lot of people from all over the world. So I listened to their languages and I listened to their accents and I understood about their culturesMe: So what happened when you wanted to go travelling? Because you said that at one point you had this business and then you sold it, is that right?Fiona: Yeah, from running the company I was working with I then set myself up for myself and found all my own clients and things and did that for two or three years. And I woke up one morning and thought 'God do I want to be doing this in five years' time? No! Two years? No!'Time to go travellingMe: So was there any specific incident that prompted this decision? Or was it literally from one day to the next waking up and going 'I don't want to do this'?Fiona: I thought that the company that I'd set up was my baby. I'd been with this other guy who was in the same industry though he ran a different company. So when we split up I think that was probably one of the kick up the backsides. I just said, “No, this is my baby, I want to hang onto this baby, this company” because Vision Source was my baby.But then when I woke up in the morning I just went, 'oh my God what am I doing? Do I really want to be doing this?' And when it was such a loud, resounding 'no', I couldn't not listen to that. I really had to think, 'no I'm just not going to be satisfied, it's going to kill me if I stay in this office and do this'. Even though it was doing really, really well.I managed to find somebody who was interested in selling, I sold the company to them. I rented my house out and I just took a rucksack and started travelling around the world.Me: So then how did you start? I think you said you bought an around the world ticket or something? I'm asking because, you know, if there's somebody listening who thinks 'oh I'd really like to travel around the world', I think some people wouldn't even know where to start, you know?A pink-haired rebel going round the worldFiona: Yeah, I was thirty-nine, I dyed my hair pink. Me: That's hilarious!Fiona: I was like wanting to be rebellious. Most people when they see the photographs kind of say, “Were you fifteen then?” and I say “No, thirty-nine, dyed my hair pink”. And I had my rucksack, a friend just said, you know, grab a rucksack. You buy a ticket that goes one direction around the world, and you can't go backwards so you always find a destination that forwards. And I think I didn't go that off the grid really. Thinking about it in retrospect it was fairly obvious.South Africa I started because that's where I've still got family living. Then, you know, Thailand, Singapore, Fiji, Cook, New Zealand, Australia and America. I really did not want that to end. That was just...no way.Me: But I think at the beginning I mean I imagine you would have had a decent amount of money to do that from the sale of your business, right? At some point did the money run out? I ask because you said that at one point you were just very trusting and that you thought, 'OK how can I just go to this new place with no money and nowhere to stay?'Fiona: I didn't...the business wasn't sold until I came back from my travels. They owed me the money. They were supposed to be selling my cameras and selling everything while I was away, and they just basically didn't. So I had to sort of deal with things until I came back. And my house that was rented only rented for a few months rather than for the whole year. So yes.Me: Wow.How travelling can be cheaper than staying at homeFiona: In fact it's cheaper to travel around the world than it is to live in a house and try and support yourself.Me: Whoa, you're kidding! Really?Fiona: No, I mean you stay in backpackers. You've got no material needs, you've got your shorts, your t-shirts, your toothbrush, you bring everything back to real, real basics. So you've got a book, you finish a book, you swap it for another book. It's just cheap. You stay in youth hostels, you meet fantastic people. Some of them obviously an awful lot younger than I was at the time. I was thirty-nine, they were all on their first out of university experience, they were travelling the world finding out who they were. And I didn't do that till later, but...Then you've also got different generations who decide to do it. But staying in youth hostels, they're pretty much...they're a good crowd of people. And when I really kind of left my rucksack in the first place, I locked it up, I tied it up, I did all the things that I thought I had to do. And then I walked out of the youth hostel and I went, 'no, damnit, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna unlock everything. We're all in the same boat, we're all from different countries, we're all in the same boat. I've been travelling on an open-sided bus in a tent, on ants' nests and all the rest of it. This is not gonna be a problem for me'.A successful mental mindsetSo mental mindset: “I' am not gonna have any problems with anybody touching any of my stuff. I got nothing they want to steal, we're all in the same boat, we've all got like...” We had our old CD players, we didn't have mobile phones and those kind of things then.Me: That's true, yeah.Fiona: And I carried my passport and my money and my tickets with me in a little bumbag as we had then. Everybody was in the same boat and if you're that open and trusting and you believe you're OK, this is very much the work that I do now too funnily enough, but if you have that vibration running through you, you'll be OK. If you have the vibration running through you like...People before I left wanted to say to me, “Oh my God! Really? You're going to this country? Well don't let anybody put anything in your bag” and “don't put your bag out of your sight” and really all their fears they were trying to put onto me before I left.But if you have this kind of like 'Do you know what? We're all in the same boat, we're all wanting to be experiencing travel and different places and different people and food and...Me: Yeah. So then...Wow! I'm still reeling actually from the previous thing you said about it being cheaper to, you know, travel the world and stay all over the place than to stay in one place, you know. I'm going to be thinking about that for a while!On to Reiki trainingBut I know that you said that at some point you started just like doing things for people to kind of pay your way, right?Fiona: Yeah, it wasn't so much to pay my way but it was just to experiment. During my travels I decided that I would finish off my Reiki. That was a funny story as well.So I'd been travelling, I ended up in Cape Town and I decided to go for Reiki because I enjoyed Reiki. And this guy gave me Reiki and I was completely knocked out. When I sort of came round, he said, “Oh something came to me when I was doing your Reiki. If you're interested in pursuing, maybe finishing off your masters or something like that to do with Reiki, I know a very good woman. She lives in Prince Albert.”And he told me where that was and I thought 'well that's kind of up from where my dad lives on the wilderness in South Africa, I could go and see Valentine and have some time with her'.So I thought about it for a while and I rang, and I rang, and I rang, and I remember writing in my journal, “Bloody hell! This woman is impossible to get hold of!”Changing your thought patternsI scrubbed that out and I put “This woman is easy to get hold of”. I did have a phone, beg your pardon, one of the first kind of Nokia phones. She rang me. So imagine – I'd been saying all this time, 'this woman is really hard to get hold of'.Me: Yeah, and of course she was then.Fiona: Just by scrubbing out that whole thought pattern and changing my thought pattern, I'd actually said 'this woman's gonna be...and she's really easy to get hold of'. My phone then rang and she rang me to say, “Great, I've had your messages. When can you come?”Me: Super! Wow!Travelling with the flowFiona: So I was on this roll when I was travelling of trying to be this very open, flowing person who wanted to experience how easy and safe the world was. Rocking up in an airport like in Australia, I hadn't got any Australian dollars, I hadn't got anywhere to stay. It was kind of one o'clock in the morning when we landed. I wanted to find out how easy it was just by allowing myself to feel easy.Me: And so what happened in that Australian airport at one in the morning?Fiona: Oh God it couldn't have been easier! They are so set up. Maybe in another country it would have been harder.So you arrive in the airport and most people had somewhere to stay and they were being picked up by people. I walked in and I thought, 'oh a cash machine, fine, pop my card in, get cash out, that's easy'. By the cash machine there's a desk there, a welcome desk, there's brochures everywhere for youth hostels and everything. And I thought, 'I wonder if I ring them now if anybody would be on the desk, or if I should have to sleep in the airport'. Which I had done before.And so I rang and somebody said, “Yeah, yeah, no problem, we can come and pick you up, we'll see if there's anybody else coming this way. We'll be there in about an hour”. And they were. Super polite, super easy. Picked up my bags, picked me up, took me to the youth hostel in Perth. Got me a room and that was it.Don't plan too much in advanceMe: Wow. So generally you found that that's the way it worked, right? With the trusting and that it would be easy and things just kind of like fell into place?Fiona: I was told before I left by a girlfriend of mine also called Fiona. She said to me, “Don't book too much up in advance because so many things are changing the whole time. Try not to plan too much because if you plan, you're planning out what the universe might have to deliver to you. Something more fun, something more exciting.”Me: Oh yeah, that makes total sense.Fiona: So don't plan too much. I kind of took it from the other point of view, that I'm a planner, I'm a scheduler, I'm a bulldozer. I'll make things happen. And I was really trying to be experiencing from a different perspective. This was my opportunity to really experience that to live in the flow.And that's really what I want to try and do in my everyday life as a mom now as well. Be more open and understanding and intuitive to...'OK so why did that happen then? Why are they ill?' So this is what brought me...OK raw food kind of came in there as well, but it really brought me to sort of try and interpret what I was being shown.And if you happen to get arrested...Me: Yeah. So did you have moments when you were travelling when the flow just stopped? And you started to feel fear or you were just like 'Oh this isn't working” or... If you did, how did you get back into flow?Fiona: Yeah, I'm trying to think about it. I got complacent, I was in Thailand and I stayed longer than I should so I was kind of arrested when I left.Me: Oh my God, you were arrested!Fiona: Yeah, because I'd overstayed my visa. You're only allowed to stay there a certain length of time so when I left, I just handed in my passport. And they pulled me off to this room and they really interrogated me and I'm just like, 'I was just kind of complacent and I didn't really think about it' and “Well I'm leaving now so just let me go!” (laughs)Me: And so what happened? Did they let you go?Fiona: They let me go, but they made me wait it out. I think I missed that flight so I had to get another one or something. Yeah, they wanted to really make a point there that you can't be complacent. So I thought OK... I wasn't really in charge of looking at my dates in that respect.When you have to push a littleAnother time was when I was in Australia. I was coming down the west coast of Australia and it became a bit of a rush. So I knew that my visa ended at a certain date, I had to be in Sydney so that I could get my flight to New Zealand. The people I was travelling with were under no speed whatsoever. So I realized then 'I have to do something, I have to move this forward faster'. Then I became out of the flow and I was very proactive into getting things moving. And I don't know what would have happened if I'd just bummed along, I don't know.Me: Well yeah but I mean, but then you...that was kind of necessary, right?Fiona: Yeah.A Thailand detox adventureMe: Sometimes you have to do that right? And then you said that at one point you said you kind of discovered raw food and detox and you started coaching girls on your travels?Fiona: I did, that was really fun.Me: How did that happen?Fiona: I was in Thailand and I'd done Thai massage, Thai cooking. And I'd said to the girl that I'd met when I was travelling...I said “God, you know we need to be doing something that we would never, ever dream about doing when we went home”. She said, “Yeah I agree, we need to do something that's kind of off the wall”. I said, “Exactly!”I walked into this bar just to order a water and there was a leaflet on the desk that said The Sanctuary. And it was for detoxing. So I took the flyer and I said, “This really, really hits me! Let's go and try this!” I spoke to the guy behind the bar and he said it's a really cool place in Koh Pang Yang.That's where we went and did detoxing, and they had a fantastic raw restaurant. I'd never experienced raw food before. So we did the detox and I learned what I could from Moon, who was the guy who ran the place and the time. I looked at these menus of these foods and of course your tastebuds change when you do a detox. This was a full detox, colon cleanse, doing enemas, coffee enemas and everything else. Met some fantastic people, had some great conversations, we slept a lot.Simple food for radiant resultsWe met all sorts of shamans, all sorts of stuff. And then I realized afterwards that myself and my friend, our bodies had completely changed, our body temperature had changed.In about three weeks after that, we went for two weeks to another island and we did absolutely nothing. We just ate very, very simply, just raw food. So tomatoes and everything. The restaurants there were very confused. We didn't want the Thai food, we just said, “Basic, plain plate of tomatoes, that's all we want”. So we learned how to say that and we were doing that. We radically shifted some weight and we radically...our bodies changed and our whole energy was completely different. I was like, 'geez I like this! I get this! I feel awesome, I feel radiant!' We were just having so much fun!The coaching beginsMe: So then you started coaching girls? To help them...Fiona: Yeah then in the next place I went to I met some young girls. And a couple of them had said, “We're on our last leg”. They were kind of going the other way around the world. And one of them had kind of said, “You know, I'm a nurse and I left that because I wanted to find myself, I wanted to find out what I really wanted to do. And here I am on the last leg of my journey and I don't think I've found myself at all!”Magical questionsI said, “Oh, OK”. So I just started asking her some questions, and I set her some tasks for the evening. I said, “What do you want to do?” And she said, “I've got no idea!” I set her some tasks for example, I think one of them was 'a hundred and one things that make you happy'. How easy. And setting out what her perfect day would include. They were two of the simplest tasks that I thought that she might actually do or might actually enjoy doing.And the next morning when we were kind of...She was leaving and I was just having breakfast. And she was like, “Oh my God!” She said, “I totally get what I wish I'd known before. I know what it is that I want, I know what makes me happy, I know this and I know that and I know the other” and I was like 'oh my God'. And then just other conversations, it just seemed to be natural for me that when I was speaking to somebody...Not telling them what they should do, but kind of like, 'have you ever thought about what it is you'd like to do? What it is...Who you'd like to be, what you'd like to wear? How you'd like to sound, speak? Do you enjoy singing? Dancing? What is it?' All the different things that make you who you want to be.Me: Wow.Fiona: It came from that, really. Just having conversations. Nothing structured, but just allowing people to find out for themselves what they liked about life, about being alive.Finding a travel partnerMe: And then at one point you met your Dutch partner, right? How did that happen?Fiona: Yes, we met in Australia and we just started travelling together. We were going the same route together. Very interesting conversations. He allowed me to be very profound and very deep. And I found something new about myself as well, which normally I would not have had those kind of conversations with people. In a very deep, delving, wondering, curious, inquisitive, wanting to know more. So that was kind of refreshing and probably why we stuck together for so long because we allowed each other to have those kind of conversations. And I found myself a different kind of person. That I didn't agree with everything that he said, or I had an opinion. I found my strength from having those kind of conversations too, I'd had a strong interior. And I found that I knew what I wanted, let's put it that way.Back home and pregnantMe: I know at some point your trip around the world ended. And then you were...you were back at home feeling sad, right? But then you were...you started travelling again when you were three months pregnant, is that right?Fiona: (laughs) Yeah, I got back to my house in Oxford. We stayed there for a while and I'm just like, 'God, I don't want to be here because I'm gonna end up doing what I used to do and I don't want to do that'. The world's a bigger place, you know?So I was three months pregnant, I was age 40, and I said “Right, that's it. We're gonna take a caravan, and we're gonna find somewhere that makes my heart melt. That really fills my heart, that makes me feel fulfilled”.Me: Wow, what did your partner say? Was he surprised? Or was he like 'yup'...Fiona: He was cool for that, he's now back in Holland, he's not here with me in France. He couldn't make it work for himself. But that's OK. So that was it. He said, 'yeah, great! Let's have an adventure'.An adventure to find your ideal homeWe took a caravan and basically I had a tick list of the things that we wanted. So what would you want if you had everything you could possibly imagine? You'd want the sea and you'd want the mountains. And you'd want the outdoor life because South Africa's under my skin. I'd have the plants in the garden, hibiscus plants and palm trees. It would be very green.So we started travelling, you know, down the coastal route of France, and kind of 'does this place? No. This place doesn't feel good. Does this place?' And “How will you know when you find it?” he used to keep saying. “I'll just know, I'll just know”.Me: And so how long were you travelling before you found it? Because most people wouldn't leave when they were three months pregnant, right? Cause they'd be thinking about 'oh my God'...No tests, no scansFiona: I didn't have any tests, I didn't have any scans, I didn't have anything. And I was huge, I had like a huge baseball, like a beach ball stuck out in front of me. My son ended up being five kilos, he was a big boy. But I was a very happy mom, and I was just really, really happy being pregnant and travelling.Me: And so where was he born? Was he born before...Fiona: He was born in Holland. So we stayed here, we found the place, we found Biarritz Saint Jean De Luz. And I imagined us living here what it would be like. We both had tears in our eyes and it just felt so homely, we had left and we'd come back. And when we came back it felt like we'd come home. So it was all feeling-based.Me: Yeah, I'm the same, I'm very feeling-based so I can totally relate to that.No French, no job, no baby knowledge...Fiona: And so then we found the house and then we went back to Holland. We had Micah in Holland, we lived in a holiday home for two months. Micah was my eldest who's now twelve. He was one month old when we moved back here. I knew nothing about babies, I knew zip! Nothing! Nada! I had his sister who helped me go shopping and all the rest of it. And I was breastfeeding and I thought, 'Well what else do I need to know?' I probably sound like such a hippy!Then we came here, we didn't speak French, we didn't have a job, we had a house, a big house. And we had a baby, and my big dog, he was with us as well, Milo. I sometimes wonder how I managed but I used to speak to my spirit animal and for some reason she used to guide me through and make me feel very comfortable and very safe. And that's how I did it.Me: Wow. And then...well, you speak French now, right?Fiona: I don't think I could ever call myself a good speaking French person. I do my best.Me: Well yeah but you make the effort, right? You do what you can, right?Fiona: Oh yeah, I make myself understood. And even funnily enough when we first moved here he would say to me, “What did they say?” I'd say, “I couldn't repeat it, I don't know what they said. But I know it's OK. And we need to do this, this and this”. It was just like an infusion.Me: Yeah, well like it was when you heard people speaking with different accents before, right? That's cool.Fiona: So I was here on an adventure.The world can come to youMe: Well and I know that you said that you kind of had the world come to you, right? Fiona: Correct, correct.Me: So what happened there?Fiona: What a great thing.Me: And how did you start that, actually?Fiona: My partner at the time was trying to work in Holland and travel. And I just said, “This isn't working, let me have a go”. I'd just had my second baby and he'd just stopped breastfeeding. And I opened up Retreat Biarritz, which is basically a detox retreat. I was running it from home, we had two studios that we'd built. People were staying in the studios and I was basically doing for them what I'd learnt to do when I was in the Sanctuary.So basically they're doing three day fast, colon cleanse, learning all about raw food. We did raw food kitchen. Then I used to take them hiking in the mountains, I used to take them to the beach, I took them to the hammam. We took them to the local markets. Just so that they could have a holiday experience while they were here.Me: That's fantastic, that's really great. Wow. So do you still...what do you do now? I know you do a lot of things, but do you still run the retreats now?Detox retreatsFiona: I still run the retreats for small groups of people. Sometimes individuals come, and again from all around the world. I mean I've had ladies from Greece, America, Australia, Russia. And they just find me, God knows how they find me. They come and they go, “I'd really like to come and work with you”. And I'm like, “OK do you just want a detox? I can just do a straight detox for you”.But at some point always the conversation comes up. They're in an old story or they're stuck, you know? 'I used to have a body like this' and 'I don't understand why my body does this'. And then the body whispering seems to sort of come in, and we have that intuitively guided conversation that helps them understand more about their body.Me: So then how does the body whispering work? Can you give us just sort of like a short, I don't know, a little brief idea?How body whispering worksFiona: Oooh, yeah, how does it work! Goodness me! Basically a lot of the ladies who come, they are stuck in a particular story. There's something that they haven't digested emotionally. It could be that they're feeling anger, but then I kind of go beyond that, what's under that. And if you're feeling anger or resentment and things, often what I'm feeling is that people are feeling very disconnected. They're not feeling any connection to other people, but they're not feeling safe.So one of the main things I do is I help them to feel what it feels like to feel safe. And most people, they have no idea what their safe place feels like. When they can discover what their safe place feels like, you've almost got something to back into when things don't feel comfortable for you. When the shit's hitting the fan or you're at a dinner table or there's a conversation going on that you're not feeling comfortable with, you can kind of go, 'hang on a second, where am I?'Tuning into your bodyZone in – some people might call it being centered or whatever, but you zone in and tune into yourself. You get out of your thinking, analyzing, bulldozing head and you get into your body. So you reconnect with your body and you go, 'wow, there I am'.And it's like 'OK so what's kicking off at the moment? Does it have anything to do with me?' And your body is able to kind of respond to you when you understand how your body works. Your body would kind of say to you, “It's got nothing to do with you”.But you can pick up who it is in the room that's really got the energy, the strongest energy in the room that's affecting you. And you can say, 'OK so if that's the person, has what they've got going on got anything to do with me? No. Back off'. You can back off, you can get back in your own energy.How most of us calm our nervesWhat I found was I used to overeat. When I was in the company of my ex particularly. He had a very chaotic mind unless he was focused, he was ultra, ultra focused, but otherwise he was chaotic. Very argumentative, a devil's advocate. But when he was kicking off, I would find that I would overeat because I wanted to shut that off. Me: Oh wow, OK.Fiona: And I calmed down my nerves... The best and the quickest way to calm down your nerves when you're stressed is for a lot of people to eat. When we don't feel safe, we eat. And our body is protecting us by having the chemical reaction that goes on, the hormones that are released in the body, they lay down fat. That's the body protecting itself. Basically the adrenaline and everything that's going on...There are toxins that run through our body, and I didn't realize how overvigilant I was because of my childhood. Certain things that happened there. I didn't realize how overvigilant I was and how aware I was of feeling empathically what was going on around me. So my only way to control that was food.Discovering how you really feelThat doesn't really tell you what body whispering is. Body whispering for me, when I'm on a call with somebody, if I'm talking to them, I'm tuning in to them. So I can teach them how they feel. Basically ninety-nine percent of anybody who's around doesn't have a clue how they feel. They think, 'oh God that doesn't feel nice' but they automatically go into the thing that makes them feel better which is eating. Or drinking, or smoking, or shopping or whatever it is. I concentrate purely with people to do with food.So basically I can connect in with them and I'm saying “OK how do you feel about that situation?” And they go into their heads and they start describing it in mental ways. I'm like “OK fine, now bring yourself into your body because you're mentally describing and giving me mental feedback. Bring it back from your body. What are you feeling in your body?” And often they'll pick something up but I'm able to help them hone in to what the feeling really is so that they can recognize it the next time.Me: Yeah, I get it, you're teaching people basically how to...Fiona: Read their bodies.Me: Read their bodies, yeah. That's very cool.Fiona: And also what's happening to me is that when I'm reading their body... Even over Skype, it doesn't have to be live, even over Skype. I can say, “OK so I'm picking up...So a thought came to me, I've just been asked to ask you this question. What does this got to do with that?” or “Would this resonate with you?” So I'm allowing myself to be open that I'm picking up something for them.A body scan offerMe: Wow. And so I know that you have something pretty cool going on at the moment which is a body scan offer I think. Do you want to say something about that?Fiona: Yeah, I offer people if they're interested to find out what the undercurrent is that's going on through their body. So basically I help people understand the undercurrent that's going on. There's nothing more responsive to your thoughts than your body.That being said, if you don't know what you're thinking, then how can you possibly change your thoughts? So often people are saying mantras or they're saying positive thoughts. But the undercurrent that goes on behind that is often very subconscious. I call it on a soul level, when you have total disbelief on that ever happening for you. It could be to do with money, but I talk to people about their bodies.How it worksSo what I ask people to do if they're really interested is they can come forward and they can have a body scan. I can have half an hour with them, I ask them some questions. They're very kind of open, big questions that allow me to see where they're coming from. And for example what makes them really happy or really sad, and then I can gauge what's going on. I can gauge their stress levels, and I can feed back to them what's going on and what's the most likely reason things are not working for them. Even if they've been dieting and detoxing and exercising for years. But there's something going on in their bodies that they haven't allowed themselves to let go of. They're still hanging onto something and it's hanging onto their body.Me: And so if people want to know more about that, where's the best place for them to find you and to look at that offer?Where to find FionaFiona: OK I have my website which is fionarobertson dot co. And I don't know how we can do that, but...Me: Well I'll link to things in the show notes anyway.Fiona: Yeah, I'll send you a link to the body scan so that people can come through and they can test out the body scan. Basically have a very happy-go-lucky conversation with me. And yeah, just find out a little bit more about who you are and what your body's asking for, funnily enough. What she needs, what she wants and what she's lacking the most. And it's not nutrients on a vitamin and mineral scale, it's nutrients of other descriptions.Me: Wow super, OK. And is that a free consultation, or...?Fiona: Yeah.Me: OK. I thought so, I just wanted to make sure I said it because some people, that's...they'll want to know that. And then, yeah, hopefully...Well I'm sure that there'll be a lot of people interested in that because I mean I just think that's fascinating!Well thank you so much Fiona for being here to share your story!Fiona: Oh, thanks!Shed your baggageMe: It's been quite a...it's certainly given me a lot to think about around... Well around world travel, really, because I love travelling and I have travelled quite a bit. But I'm gearing up to do some more in the future with not very much baggage at all, so that's...Fiona: Oh, so nice to get rid of your baggage! And what a nice analogy as well, get rid of all your baggage!Me: Yup, all kinds of baggage! (laughs)So thank you so much for that inspiration. It's been really great to talk to you!Fiona: Thank you so much for inviting me, thank you so much.Me: You're very welcome, thank you, have a super, super day!The best travel foodRight, so fantastic! I hope you enjoyed that story. And I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you the best travel food that I know. And that food is...dates!Dates are an amazing food. They're easily portable, you can just pop some into a bag and put them in your suitcase. You can even carry them on a plane with you – at least as of today you can still do that. Properties of datesNow in terms of properties of dates, the first thing about dates is that they are amazing for the digestive system. This is because they are one of the best foods for getting rid of parasites. They basically bind onto and then help sweep away all kinds of nasty stuff: parasites, heavy metals, bad bacteria, viruses, fungus and especially Candida. And if you've got a tendency to constipation, dates can help there too.In addition, contrary to what you might think as they're very sweet, they're excellent for helping to balance blood sugar. The fruit sugar that they contain also helps feed the muscles and refuel the brain – so they're a great brain food too. As well as a great food for sport.And if you often feel stressed, dates can help you there as well. They contain almost 70 bioactive minerals that support the adrenals as they work to help us face various life challenges. On top of that, they've got a huge amount of amino acids which elevates their levels of potassium which in turn helps stop formation of excess lactic acid. Another good reason why they're really good for sport, as well as anti-stress.They're also said to be abundant in anti-cancer properties, particularly for abdominal cancer.And because dates are so high in nutrition, they can help with weight control. For example, some Muslims eat dates with water to break a fast before they eat anything else and one benefit to that is that it helps avoid overeating at that first meal which I think is really cool.Why dates are the best travel foodAnother very cool thing about dates is that if like Fiona you want to go on a travelling adventure and you're not quite sure about how you'll find food, some people say that a wrapped up date in your pocket or in your bag can act like a good luck travel charm. It can ensure you'll always find something to eat. Of course yes you can always eat the date itself, but some say that this little fruit can help you find more than that.For those who want to know what exact nutrients dates contain, well there are a lot. But the ones I'll mention here in addition to potassium are calcium, iron, phosphorus, sodium, magnesium and zinc, as well as vitamin K, vitamin A, thiamin, niacin and riboflavin. It's got loads of stuff.How to eat datesAs to how to eat dates, well you just grab a handful, right? Be sure though to remove the pit inside first please, we don't want an impromptu trip to the dentist. And just 4 to 6 dates a day can give you excellent benefits.They're also one of the key ingredients in many recipes for things like energy balls. So for example you can blitz some dates in a food processor with some nuts and maybe a bit of dried coconut for an instant snack. And if you'd like more recipes where you can indulge in their sweetness, I'll post the link to my 5-Minute Desserts recipe ebook below the show notes for this episode. Which brings us to the end of this week's story! I hope you enjoyed it!And if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your particular situation), I'd love to hear from you! If you enjoy my stories and want to hear more, join us and subscribe! I share one crazy yet true story a week. And if you've got any questions, just pop them in the comments! And if you're listening on iTunes, do give me a review, that would be awesome.I hope you have an amazing day, thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Desserts and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on dates including links to studies and other articles: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/fruit/health-benefits-of-dates.htmlFiona's website: www.fionarobertson.coFor your free Body Scan session, book a time with Fiona here: https://fionarobertson.acuityscheduling.com/Fiona's bioFiona Robertson, Author, Creator of the Home Detox Box, Retreat Biarritz, and a Body Whisperer intuitive holistic coach - supporting women as they release, reset and re connect with their bodies. I assist the body to consciously re constructing itself from the inside out, releasing the emotions and stress that cause the body to hold onto weight and create digestive and long lasting physical symptoms.

Description: Heather Craik shares with us some pitfalls of dating as a single mom, with some pretty crazy results. Plus a food that fills you up from the inside outHi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:How Not To Date As A Single Mom (And Still Find Love Anyway)In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food to feel full, in other words, to fill you up from the inside out.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.Our guest, Heather CraikI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Heather Craik. Heather's going to share with us what it can be like to start out life as a single mom, explore dating on Tinder (which like I've never done) and have long distance relationships (which I haven't done either). So all that sounds super interesting to me! She now helps people solve a completely different kind of problem which we'll mention later.For now though, Heather, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I've been looking forward to having you ever since you told me about your incredible, roller-coaster story!Heather: Hey, thanks for having me. Glad to be here.Me: You're so welcome. So I think if I understood it correctly that your story starts where you were with somebody and you got pregnant? And then you wound up being a single mom? Can you talk about how that came about, maybe?Heather's storyHeather: Yeah, sure. I mean I'd been with this guy for about nine years or so and that's an entirely different story in and of itself. But what happened was I was in Canada when I fell pregnant. And because I wasn't expecting to fall pregnant in Canada, I didn't actually have medical coverage for that. So I came back home to the UK which is where I'm from. And you know a couple of months after that I realized that it was really not working out with this other guy.Me: The nine year guy.Heather: So that was just a bit entertaining for a while. I broke it off with him and went through the rest of my pregnancy, it was just me. My parents were there which was really helpful. But I was about 5 months pregnant I reckon when it ended.Me: That is so, I have to say that is just so, so brave! Oh my goodness. Like how did you...how did you feel like when you... I mean, yeah, how did you feel? I can imagine – I can't imagine, I mean I've been pregnant, I have two kids. But how did you feel when you just like made that, made that decision, you know? To...Heather: Well I think leading up to it was quite stressful. And I noticed that before the decision was actually made, I felt stressed for a lot of days, but once it was done and it was over I actually felt relieved. Which I think was really telling.Me: Wow. That's really telling. Especially like the situation you were in, right? Cause I know that for me, when I was pregnant in some ways I felt kind of vulnerable, you know? Because you're carrying this childHeather: Oh yeah, entirely. I was back staying with my parents even. So yeah. But they were great, by the way. My parents were fantastic from the word go.Me: Oh wow, that's really good. Well I'm sure that at the end of the day they just really want you to be happy, right?Heather: Yeah, they're really good that way.Rebuilding a businessMe: So then you started out as a single mom, so was your son born when you were still living with your parents? I mean, were you working at all?Heather: Yeah, I was still with my parents for about 10 months after he was born, actually. So I was working, I had started work on my business at that point but it hadn't really fully taken off. I had my business before I fell pregnant, let's just clear that up. But then it sort of, you know, the whole moving country and then being very pregnant and then having a very small child, it had fallen by the wayside. So I had to kind of build that back up again.Me: Yeah. Wow. I can't even imagine, like, I don't know, I started...I started my business when my kids were like 10 and 12 or something like that. But I think I was so traumatized when my son was born, my first child, that I don't think I could have had any head for business at all. It was like...Heather: Oh I tell you what, pregnancy brain is such a real thing though. You don't realize it, but probably the last couple of months of my pregnancy and for three months after I couldn't focus on my work at all. I would try, I would sit down in this dazed fog and try to code and it just did not work.Me: Wow, I guess because...that would be an interesting topic in and of itself, right? Pregnancy brain and why it happens and everything. I mean you've got another being with you, right? That's, that could be...that's the first thing that comes to my mind. That must have been really hard. But at least your parents were there to help out, right? I imagine when your son was born, then...Heather: Yeah, I didn't have to cook for the longest time! That was hugely helpful!Me: Oh! Heaven! (laughs)Heather: I know! I do miss that!Time to start dating againMe: Yeah! So then how old was...cause I know that at some point you did...you did want to start dating again. How old was your son when you were like, 'OK, I'm gonna just, you know...'Heather: I think just over a year, actually.Me: And was there anything that happened? Any specific, I don't know, moment or incident that caused you to think, 'OK I'm ready to date now'? I mean, it's a pretty big decision, right?Heather: Honestly, it had been a very long time for me since I'd had any...you know, any of that wonderful sex stuff. Me: Any action. Yeah, of course!Heather: And it was getting to that point...I had moved out which was, you know, helpful. So I'd moved out and had my own place and my son was more settled, he started to sleep better at night which was a real help. Yeah, that was pretty much what led up to it.Me: Wow. And then so you said that you started finding people...How did you start finding people? I'll let you talk about it!Trials of TinderHeather: Well since I pretty much live online anyway, I automatically gravitated over to dating sites. You know, I'd been hearing a lot about Tinder because I'm of that age group that they obviously target for that kind of thing. So I thought 'OK whatever, I'll have a look'. I wasn't expecting to find anybody but I thought whatever, it would be worth a laugh at least.Me: So then like sorry, for people who don't know what Tinder is, can you say a little bit about like how it works?Heather: OK well basically, what Tinder is, it's an app first and foremost. It links into your Facebook but it doesn't post to your Facebook. It just pulls information from there. And you know, you get these photos that come up and you either swipe right if you'd like to talk to them or swipe left if you don't want anything to do with them. Me: Yup (laughs).Heather: So what happens is if you swipe right and someone else, like the one you just swiped right on also swipes right, then you can start a conversation.Me: Right. Kind of like shopping, I guess.Heather: Kinda sorta. You already have that 'OK well we both agreed we like something about you'. You get that. By its nature it can be quite shallow, but there actually are descriptions and bios as well. People don't actually read them...Me: That was my other question as well. Cause if you swipe...So do you have the description under the picture that you can read before you swipe? Or do you only swipe based on...Heather: Yeah, you can see it under the picture. You just have to click and you can read it. Not everyone does.Me: Of course, yeah I can imagine. Interesting people...or notSo you met some pretty interesting people on Tinder, right? I believe there's a little story there...Heather: Oh, yes, did I ever!There were a few interesting ones I will grant you, but the one that still sticks in my head was this one guy. And I don't remember his name, I don't even really remember what he looks like, but I remember he was quite reasonable at first. So obviously we'd both swiped to the right to talk, whatever. We'd exchanged a couple of messages and then pretty much off the bat he was like, “Well I like Lego”. As one of his interests. And I was like “OK, well Lego's pretty cool, fine.” And then he comes back with, “No, no, I really like Lego”. Before I had a chance to respond to that, he follows up with this other message saying that he likes to put it in certain places and I'm afraid that I was out. All done. No way!Me: Oh no, that's too weird (laughs). Did you actually like meet live with anybody on Tinder?Heather: I did actually meet live with one of them and honestly it was probably one of the more shallow ones. It was just one of those 'hey he looked good I looked good'. Fine. We'll meet up. And he was a nice guy, still is a nice guy. Not the brightest tool in the shed, but yeah, we did meet up and we did engage in some activites and that was fine. But not particulary fulfilling, I would say.Is Tinder worth it?Me: Yeah. So is your conclusion that it's probably good for the shallow stuff but not much more? Is that what you would say?Heather: I reckon it probably could work for people that had a bit more time. There were certainly some interesting people there that I reckon if you'd gone out and spoken to them in a coffee type setting that might have been OK. But a lot of people do just go on and use it for shallow whatevers.Me: Yeah. So then, how long did you kind of like play around with Tinder before you went on to somebody else that...yeah? (laughs)Heather: Probably around a month and a half or two months, I was just bored by that point. And you're having to keep up all these other conversations too. It seems sort of mean to be like 'OK I'm not that interested' but at the same time...not that interested.Me: Yeah, and it's time and everything that you're taking up, right?Enter the former loverSo then how did the former lover come into the picture?Heather: Ah, well you see he was one of those people that we never went particularly far emotionally. That was just never our thing. But we had been lovers obviously on and off. And he...I'm not sure how that started again actually, I think what happened was we started talking again cause we were phasing in and out of each other's lives anyway. We started talking again and it was just one of those 'hey OK, so do you just want to come over' type things. I think I actually started out telling him that nothing was gonna happen, and that was obviously not what actually happened.Me: I had somebody like that too. It was actually quite handy, it was because I used to be a singing waitress and a singing coat check girl in this like fancy French restaurant place. Very, totally random and there were lots of different bands that came through and there was a guy like that. You know, we had a kind of understanding that if, you know, if we were in the mood for just something superficial, we'd just, you know, it's fine.Heather: Yeah, and it's not like you don't care, it's just never ever gonna be anything else.Me: And then I feel like, you know, well I think there's a place for that right? If that's what you want and that's what they want, I mean why not, right?Heather: Yeah, I mean it worked out pretty well for that.A long distance relationshipMe: And then you said that after that you somehow then found yourself in a long distance relationship, I mean how did that happen?Heather: Yes, I kinda did. So this guy was somebody that I'd met in Canada about 6 years prior, nothing ever happened there. He was friends to us both but we'd sort of lost contact for a while. We hadn't really seen each other for a while. We started talking again, it must have been a couple months after Gabriel turned one, so it must have been September probably that we started talking again. I was minding my own business, not looking for anything in particular. And he just admits that he likes me, and I'm like “Oh, OK” because I'd always sort of had a thing for him too. So we did that and then it just went boom. Right time. We gave it a go.Me: And then how did you...but you said it was long distance, so like how did that work? Did you like Skype each other?Heather: What we used to do was we would talk a lot on Facebook messenger because that was the quickest and easiest way. But he would also video call. Like after a few months we realized that worked a bit better. He would hop on video and we'd talk. Which, you know, it was fine when my kid was asleep.If he isn't a kid kind of guy...But for whatever reason my sweet, darling toddler that loves everybody hated when I was on video with this guy. He was fine with video with other people even. Hated it. Tantrum after about 10 minutes, did not like it.Me: I wonder why.Heather: Yeah, I mean to be fair, this guy didn't particularly like him either. He tried, but he wasn't ever a kids type person and you know he really didn't like my ex either which didn't help matters because honestly...they're related, so...Me: Oh, your son and your ex, yeah.Heather: Yeah. So, yeah, that didn't go very well. He did make an honest effort but that's not really something you can make an honest effort on. Which is kind of why we ended up splitting actually. It was that and the distance. Because I realized that I didn't want to move back to Canada and he had realized that he didn't want to move either.Me: So how long were you in that kind of situation with him before you were like 'oh well this isn't really gonna go anywhere'.Heather: Well I think probably that entire relationship lasted about 5 months. It was about a month or two of 'OK what are we gonna do about this' so that wasn't particularly fun. And then it became really obvious at the end that it was just never gonna change really. I did entertain the thought of moving for a little while. And I know that he tried thinking about moving too for a little while, and we just wouldn't have been happy moving, either of us, so.Trying out BumbleMe: You said that once you moved on from the long distance relationship, you mentioned something called Bumble. What's that?Heather: Oh, Bumble, right. So it's kind of like Tinder, but with a very noticeable difference. Only the women can do the first message and you only get 24 hours after you've matched to make that message. And then they get 24 hours to message back, and if no-one does within their time frame, that's it. Unless you pay. Some people pay.Me: And how did you find that compared to Tinder?Heather: Honestly it was very similar, but the people seemed to be looking for deeper connections in general. In general. But there were obviously still plenty of the 'oh hey, I just want a casual something'. That's fine, if that's what you're looking for.Me: And then did you meet a lot of people on Bumble?Heather: There were a few people I spoke to actually, and some of them were quite lovely. And there was one I actually met up with. He was fine, we sort of met up during the day at one point first of all. You know, we got on great, it was OK. I think we went to the park actually, so Gabriel was actually there. He was running about at the park. This other guy was there and it was fine, there was nothing going on. We would up meeting up the next evening. And basically we did the kissing thing and then the other stuff, but oh my God no!Kissing a black holeHow would I describe this delicately? Probably not very well, but I'll describe it anyway. Imagine a black hole and imagine chicken pecks and combine the two. And that was his kissing.Me: Oh, that's horrible!Heather: And the sex itself was not much better.Me: Oh, OK that's actually, that's a really good image. That's a bit scary, it's kind of a bit freaky.Heather: Yeah, you sort of wonder how they get to that age without knowing how to kiss. But anyway.Me: I guess some people do, right? I guess that didn't go anywhere! Heather: That did not!Me: (laughs) And then you said you found yourself in another long distance relationship? Or not a relationship?Heather: Ah, completely accidentally, I had in fact sworn off boys at this point. I was like 'you know what, I don't even care anymore. I'm not doing this dating thing anymore, I'm happy on my own'. Because it had come to that point, right? My business was going well by this point. I was perfectly happy just not looking for somebody. That was me at this point.Me: I mean then did you think...sorry, did you think that...when you say you were perfectly happy not looking for somebody, was it because you thought 'oh there's no point, they're all gonna be a bit crap' or was it because...Heather: There was a bit of that but it was more that I wasn't that fussed about it anymore.When you're perfectly happy on your ownMe: Oh! What happened for you to like be not fussed?Heather: I think it was a combination of the ending of that long distance relationship. Because I had cared quite a bit and then obviously it didn't work for practical reasons. Combined with...I'm gonna call it a sex experience, but it's not...you know the one. And then also combined with I'd reached a point where I really wasn't lacking anything.I think probably the reason I started looking in the first place was that I felt this longing for a connection, right? But by that point I was actually OK on my own. I didn't need that to validate me anymore.Me: So the interesting thing I find about that is that there are so many people who try to get to that point through conscious effort, right? For example they think to themselves, 'oh I keep reaching out to others for connection and I'm kind of just fed up because nothing's working. I'm just gonna be by myself and do a lot of introspection'. And stuff like that. Whereas with you...Like in other words, they try to get to that point by working on themselves in a very conscious way. Whereas with you it sounds like it was a very kind of like organic process.Heather: It was completely accidental! I was just doing my own thing.Me: Did it have anything to do with your business doing well? Because I know you did say at one point that it was quite hard with your business, right? There was a bit of a tough period.Heather: Well yeah, because obviously I had a young child. It's not that easy to juggle with business, especially since I was used to just running it by myself.Being your own personI think that took some getting used to. But no, what happened was over the course of that long distance relationship that lasted about 5 months, my business started to take off and have more traction. My child, very helpfully, started sleeping through the night. I wasn't a sleep-deprived zombie anymore. That was a lot more fun! I started to take better care of myself again and you know what? He was actually quite good for me in that regard because I started to explore being my own person again which was really quite helpful too.Me: Oh I know what you mean.Heather: All that combined so that I found who I was again.Me: I know what you mean, it's kind of...cause I can remember that stage with my own kids. It's kind of like, yeah, you do get your own life back in a sense. I think you put it well to me in an email when you said like a mombie, right? You're walking around with no sleep.Heather: Yeah, up until that point I don't think I had slept more than two hours in a row since he was born. Because his longest period of sleep...And that only happened when he was about a year old maybe, was four hours and then two hours and then two hours and then one. But obviously I was still up. So I got two, two, one and a half if I was lucky...Self-affirmationMe: Oh wow. So then...I was gonna ask you something about that. And then your business started to take off, right? You got more clients and everything? Do you think...cause I don't know about you, but for me I know that when the business stuff starts to go really well, that's a big, a big kind of self-affirmation, in a way.Heather: Yeah, it's like this realization 'oh hey I can make it work. It's doing well, I can do this'. That point that you get to. I'd had it before, but I think with being pregnant and having my kid...There was a part of me that was initially worried that 'oh my gosh, what if I don't ever get this back?' You know? So obviously that had been appeased by that point because I started to see it come back again.Me: So then now where are you at now with that? I mean I know that your business is going well. But do you also like, are you at the point where you have somebody in your life? Or are you at the point where...Heather: Oh yeah, it's actually really funny. It was probably about a week after I got to this realization that I was totally fine. I could just have a business and have my son and maybe go travelling and all this fun stuff....Along comes the right guyAlong comes this guy that I'd been speaking to probably since October. He was a friend of a friend, we'd started talking on Facebook. I think we met once some years ago for like 5 minutes. So we'd been talking and we get along really well. We'd video chat just as friends, whatever. And so somewhere in there he decided to profess his undying love for me which was helpful.Me: Oh, wow.Heather: I'll be fair, I do love him too. We are not together. I am still single because I'm incredibly stubborn and I'm not doing the long distance thing again. But he's actually looking at moving here at some point.Me: Wait, so is he in Canada at the moment?Heather: Yup, he's in Canada as well.Me: Oh! Yeah, you've gotta get those guys out of Canada, right?Heather: Yeah, I'm just gonna need to import somebody.Me: Exactly. Well, just the good one, right? The other guys can stay over there.Heather: Yeah, they can stay as far away as they need too.Me: Just get the good one. Being clear about what you wantMe: So are you...how can I put this? Have you basically just said to him, you know, “I'm not moving, if you want us to be together then this is how it's gonna work. And I need you to come here” kind of thing?Heather: Pretty much, yes. What happened was that I was quite open with the fact that I'm not leaving here. Or that if I did leave from here, it would just be to Europe maybe. You know, fairly local because I don't want to leave my family behind again.Me: Especially with your son and everything, right?Heather: Yeah, and a ten hour flight each way is not ideal.Me: Oh I know, I've done that, yeah!Heather: That's where I came into it. And he was all like, well he was initially all 'No I don't want to move either'. Which was fine because, you know, we weren't dating. But he sort of came round to the idea. I think what happened for him basically is he looked at it and decided, 'Actually I don't have much to keep me really. And I want to be over there with her, so...' That's where he came to it.Me: Wow, so yeah, you'll soon have somebody flying halfway across the world to be with you, which is pretty cool, right? Heather: Yes, it makes a change.Me: Exactly! Rather than you doing all the flying, that's really good.What Heather does nowSo what about...so now I know that with your business and everything, well. I'd love to ask you about what you're doing now because I know for a fact that what you're doing now is super helpful to people like me!Heather: Yeah, OK. So what I do is, I run Designmancy. And basically what I do there is I will take your WordPress site and I can build it, I can repair it, I can train you how to use it. I can fix it...Anything you could possibly need for WordPress, that is what I do. I'm your coder fixer gal, basically.Me: Wow that is really cool. And you take on all different kinds of projects, everything from like building sites to fixing existing sites...Heather: Oh yeah, I mean I am honestly at my happiest when I'm getting to fix bits and pieces of code or getting to build something new. Really I get kind of twitchy if I've not fixed anything for a couple of weeks, so just give me something to do!Me: Oh just give me a call, I've got plenty to fix!Heather: Basically that's how I work.Me: That's really cool. And of course you can do it from anywhere, right?Heather: Well yeah, that's a big help too.Me: That's fantastic! Brilliant! What's your...Oh I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. But for the benefit of people listening, where's the best place for them to find you?Where to find HeatherHeather: OK, probably the best place to find me is designmancy.com. I'll spell it cause it's a bit of a weird word. It's design, I think we all know that bit! And then it's mancy dot com. That's the best place to reach me. Depending on when you get there my site may still just be a 'coming soon' page. Because cobbler's shoes and all that stuff. But it does have this really nice early bird discount, so hop on over!Me: Super! So then I have another question for you. Is that the new design of your website? Because your business is already, you know, going well and making money and stuff, I assume you got your previous clients from a previous website? Is that right?Heather: Well I had had a website there for a while but it was never really that good. I've actually been getting a lot of my clients from Facebook groups and referrals and word of mouth. I've not been using my site as much but it has gotten to the point where I really need it to work. I'm really excited by this actually, I've hired a copywriter to help me. So she's doing all my written content. Obviously I'm doing my website bit but I've got a photographer and all that fun stuff as well. It's coming together really quite nicely and it's exciting!Me: Super! And I do know that it's very cobbler's shoes, right? That, you know, the WordPress site designer whose WordPress site isn't designed yet because you're doing everybody else's, right?Super! Oh thank you so much Heather for being here to share your story with us. I love that, so...Heather: Thank you Barbara, I'm so glad I got to be here and thanks for having me!An ideal food to feel fullMe: You're so welcome! So, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best foods to fill you up. It's a great comfort food that's actually good for you. And that food is...oats!Now oats are a very powerful yet often underestimated food. They really do help fill you up and give you energy over long periods. As do chia seeds, which I've spoken about in a previous episode.And the reason I'm mentioning food to feel full is because a lot of us could reach for fulfilment in the arms of someone. Man, woman, whatever. But this food can actually fill you up without reaching for anybody's arms. And then you can still reach for the arms of somebody if you want to!In terms of food to feel full, in one study done in Australia, oats actually ranked at number 3 for a 'satiety index'. Which basically is a number allocated to how good particular foods are at satisfying hunger and contributing to a feeling of fullness. Some researchers have found that eating oats can help reduce appetite as well. So if you make yourself some oatmeal with apples, you'd be giving yourself a double whammy of food to feel full, as it were, because apples are good appetite-reducers too.I'm sure that if you've eaten oats, well you may not be very surprised at that because you've probably experienced feeling pretty full after a bowl of, say, oatmeal or porridge as they say in the UK.Other benefits of oatsDid you know that oats do have a lot of benefits, and one of the benefits is that they're great for your gut? They're high in fiber so they're very helpful for digestion, and some researchers believe that they may even help boost some of the beneficial bacteria in our gut.The other cool thing about oats is that they can be very helpful for lowering cholesterol. The oats bind with cholesterol and therefore help remove excess from your body. I've got personal experience with this because my ex-husband used to be on medication for high cholesterol, until he did two things. The first one was he started eating my food, but also he added in oats at breakfast. Within a year he was off the medication and that was about 10 years ago now. And if anyone comes near him and says the word 'oats', they will get an earful about how oats bind with cholesterol and you know, blah blah blah. He goes on about it(!)But the benefits of oats don't stop there. You don't have to eat them, you can bathe in them! For help with inflamed skin conditions such as eczema, chickenpox or even sunburn, you can add one cup of finely ground oats to your bathwater and let your skin soak up all that goodness.What oats containAs to what oats contain, they have many minerals, such as selenium, magnesium, phosphorus, manganese and zinc. So the phosphorus helps if for example you've got students in your house for example and they're studying for exams and things, phosphorus can help there too.Many people ask if oats contain gluten. It's important to note here that oats of themselves don't actually contain gluten. However, if you are celiac or extremely sensitive to even traces of gluten, you'll want to check the provenance of your oats. Because sometimes they can pick up traces of gluten if they are grown next to a field of gluten-containing grains such as wheat or barley. You can buy packages of oats that are marked gluten-free, they're just a bit more expensive. But you can get them.How to eat oatsAs to how to eat oats, when you're faced with buying oats in the supermarket, you may get a bit confused. There are steel-cut oats, oat groats, rolled oats, Scottish oats... all kinds of oats! I'll link to an article below that spells out the different kinds so that you'll know what to buy without tearing your hair out.Personally I use two kinds. I use oat groats, which are the whole grains. They're great for soaking overnight and making into oat milk, and they're also really good for grinding for making oat flour. I also use rolled oats which are basically hearty flakes. They're oat groats that have been pressed flat and they're great for making energy bites.I've got some recipes that use oats in my 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven ebook, so if you'd like to take a look, I'll post the link below in the show notes. Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on health benefits of oats: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/270680.phpAn easy explanation of the different types of oats: http://www.webmd.com/diet/oatmeal-benefits#1Heather's bio: Heather runs Designmancy, your place for WordPress design, repairs and training, while raising a 2 year old son and generally plotting to take over the world.Heather's website: http://designmancy.comFind Heather on Facebook and Instagram​

How Kate Fisher found herself at the brink of death, having to choose between this world and the next. Plus one of the best foods to feel grounded: for keeping a level head and making good decisions(!) Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:This world...Or AnotherIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you one of the best foods to feel grounded – in other words, to help us stay clear-headed and even make better decisions in our lives.OK enough hints from me, I'm sure you have no idea what that food is...or maybe you do, so let's get on with the story.Our guest, Kate FisherI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Kate Fisher. Kate is a shamanic practitioner who specialises in helping others to connect with the power that is already within them. She is also an artist, and she works with drums, paint and clay to create shamanic tools, paintings and ceramics. And she works with people not only face to face, but also at a distance which I think is very cool. She has a pretty incredible story to share which I think you're going to love!So Kate, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast!Kate: Thanks Barbara.Me: Yeah, it's great to have you. I'm looking forward to sharing your story.Kate's storySo you work in Norfolk, you live in Kent, but do you have a lot of trees surrounding you now? Because I know that you spent a lot of your childhood in trees, is that what you told me? Is that where your story begins?Kate: Yeah, it kind of is, I was much more into sitting in trees and hanging out there and not really with the other kids. It just felt calming and I later found out that what was actually happening was that I was speaking with the tree deities and the tree spirits themselves. Me: So like when most kids had imaginary friends, like little playmates and stuff, then you just had your playmates that were like in the trees and nature spirits and everything.That's really cool, when I was little actually, I didn't play with the other kids either. I was with them but I was a tiger roaring and crawling on the floor. So there were no nature spirits for me, just a bunch of crawling around.On to herbalismAt one point you studied herbalism, is that right? How did you come to study that?Kate: Well, I began studying it. After doing my art degree, I actually got a job in Neal's Yard Remedies in Norwich. And so that just kind of brought me back to plants and their uses. The medicinal uses were the sort of thing I was drawn to. I was going to move to Australia to do the whole course of naturopathy. There was something still missing from that for me. So from that I actually found magical herbalism.Me: Okay.Kate: Yeah, so that's kind of like hedge witchcraft. It's understanding that everything has an energy and you can use that energy to help heal and help rebalance.Me: I know about wild plants, you know, and collecting wild plants and just eating them because they taste really good, and I know that nettles for example are really good for arthritis, just little things that you kind of pick up. But that's kind of all I know. So is it like making teas for people and poultices and things like that out of plants and stuff?Kate: No, no, it's purely energetic, so it's basically like spellcasting.Me: OK.Magic herbalism, then on to the PhilippinesKate: So you would use certain herbs and plants that have certain attributes and they often correspond with the medicinal uses as well. And you'd kind of enchant them and then you'd make them into little sachets to hand to people and once they'd got their use from it, they would bury it. It was always just for an energetic purpose.Me: Oh OK.Kate: It's like the old wives' tale of putting certain things above the door so things can't come in.Me: I get it. OK. So you were doing herbalism but then I think you stopped, is that right, and you moved to the Philippines? Is that right?Kate: Yeah, that's right. So magical herbalism still wasn't doing it for me and I still felt there was something more. And I came across a book and it was called Chance Spirit Shamanism, and this just sent me off! I knew that I had to do something with this because it would take me deeper into that plant realm. The way I actually got to the Philippines was through my ceramics, with a job as a teacher over there.Manila and the Saturn returnMe: How did you get that job? That's really cool.Kate: A Filipino lady, her family ran the college there and she approached me and asked if I would teach there.Me: Wow!Kate: Unfortunately it was in Manila and for me that was just too busy. It's a really built city with really rich and really poor areas. I found this place called Bahay Kalipay which means the House of Happiness. So I went there, I volunteered and from there I taught this process called The Inner Dance, and this was precisely when my Saturn return hit. I had just turned 28 and I decided to drop everything, I sold everything that I owned in England basically, and I decided to move to the Philippines.Kate's Saturn ReturnMe: Wow. So can you just...sorry, can you explain to people, some people that may not know, what is a Saturn return and why does it just – cause I've experienced one too – what is a Saturn return and why does it turn your life upside down?Kate: Yeah, well, OK. The Saturn return is...Saturn's in a certain place in the night sky and what happens is when that then comes around which obviously it takes 28 to 30 years to come round in your astrological chart, that changes everything. You're then kind of pushed or encouraged onto a path that you should have been taking that you may have been diverted from. Some people's is really turbulent, other people it can be quite free flowing depending on what their life path life has taken. And then this happens again normally in women's time, it's normally around the menopause.Me: Well it would be like 28 years later, right?Kate: Exactly, yeah, it's on that time scale. So it really can turn your life upside down because Saturn's known as the teacher. If you haven't learned your lessons, you're gonna learn them!Why the PhilippinesMe: Yup! I've experienced that so I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, so it can be quite big life changes and stuff, right? What made you decide to move to the Philippines?Kate: Well, in all honesty a man.Me: (laughs) As so often happens...Kate: And he worked at the retreat center that I went to. Yeah, I kind of knew that it wasn't gonna work out but I'm always this kind of romantic person, I'm just gonna follow my heart...I loved it there anyway because it was just so beautiful and I felt so held there, just on the land.Me: Yeah. So you moved to the Philippines, so if you moved because of him, did you stay with him and then, like, what happened?Releasing inner blocksKate: Well, I think I moved in with him to begin with, him and his family. And then I went back to work at the retreat center for meditation and the inner dance which is kind of meditative. It allows the flow of energy and any blockages to come out, it can be quite cathartic and transformative in itself. So I went back there and lived there, and I did that for 8 months. I was looking for land to buy as well.Me: So you were gonna buy land in the Philippines? That's very cool. You said at one point that you had a kind of like dark night of the soul, was that related to the guy? Or...Kate: It was all, you know, a whole lump of stuff rolled in together (laughs). That's what happens, isn't it?Me: All at the same time, of course, yeah.Crying in paradiseKate: All at the same time. So yeah, for me, I was in paradise but I was crying my eyes out every day.Me: Oh!Kate: Yeah, and it was just this kind of ultimate depression, but this was something different, it was a transformative kind of time. And I ended up not really seeing the point in life, so I went from, you know, being on a real high and feeling the connection between all things and all of this and then just fell apart and thought, “Well, if everything is nothing and nothing is everything, then what's the point?”Me: Oh, yeah, I've felt like that before so I can relate, yeah. Wow.From the Philippines to PeruMe: And so from there, how did you...you said that you then went to Peru, right? So how did you go from the Philippines to Peru? Did you just one day up and decide to leave, or was there a specific incident where you thought 'OK I've had enough, I'm going to leave now'? Or...Kate: Well I, I'd gone to America to visit my friends over there and then while I was there I phoned this person...Me: Somebody in Peru?Kate: No, sorry, I phoned my boyfriend at the time. Yeah, and he ended up going “Oh I've decided I'm going to be a Peace Pilgrim”.Me: A Peace Pilgrim? What's that?Kate: So it's someone who walks around without anything, but just goes spreading peace and basically relies on anyone around them to support them. He said “This is my highest excitement”. So I was like, “OK, fine”. Obviously I was a bit heartbroken because I'd just travelled the other side of the world, but it made me suddenly realize that I wasn't following my highest excitement. So I thought “OK, what's happening right now? Where's the mother of all plant learnings?” And it's happening in Peru, with Ayahuasca, with Huachuma... Ayahuasca and HuachumaMe: What's huachuma? I mean, I know Ayahuasca and in fact I spoke about that in a previous episode, but what's huachuma?Kate: Huachuma is also known as San Pedro. San Pedro was the Catholic name they gave when they kind of came over to the South Americas. Huachuma is the original name for it. It's a cactus that is mescalin-based, so it's similar to the peyote which is a mescalin-based medicine.Me: Oh OK. So it's a similar kind of experience with...like a journey like you would do as if you were taking Ayahuasca but you're taking Huachuma?Kate: It's similar, yeah. Huachuma's much more about the earth and less cosmic. Ayahuasca is out there, attaching to everything that is. Huachuma's about the heart, about connecting back to the earth.Me: Wow. OK, so you did both of those when you were there?Kate: Yeah, that's right, so I spent 6 months being an apprentice to both of those plants.Me: Oh wow! So now are you able to perform Ayahuasca and Huachuma ceremonies for other people?Kate: I believe I can hold ceremony for Huachuma for other people. With Ayahuasca I decided that I'm just always going to be her apprentice (laughs). I just don't see how people hold space for that, it's such a powerful thing.Temazcals (sweat lodges)Me: OK. So you did those, and you also mentioned temazcals, you know, the sweat lodges, what were those like?Kate: It's really magical.So for somebody who doesn't, who doesn't know about a temazcal, can you say a little bit about like what it is? Because I've done one, but not everybody knows about it, right? Could you say a little bit about like what it is and what happens and why you might want to do a sweat lodge?Kate: OK. It's a really sacred ceremony and our ancestors have always used it to cleanse, to rebirth. To go into those sweat lodges is like going back into the mother's womb. You go in there with thanks, knowing what you want to get rid of or what you want to transition into. And you bless the rocks which are put into a sacred fire.Me: Sacred fire?Kate: Yes. They then heat those for several hours and then you will go into the lodge. You normally go through about four, yeah, four rounds. They'll bring in a certain number of rocks, and then water is poured onto the rocks once the door is closed.Me: And it gets really, really hot, I remember.Kate: It does. But it builds, it's not like going into a sauna. Your body gradually kind of gets used to it until it gets so hot that you're just like “Oh no I can't do this!” But quite often, we always say that the heat is your friend. Because that heat is sometimes not physical heat, it's sometimes you know, coming up against maybe a blockage of the energy of the thing that you're trying to shift, so if you can, stay in.The eyebrow of the Peruvian jungleMe: And so how did you...how did you go from doing the sweat lodges and the Ayahuasca and Huachuma ceremonies to the jungle? Cause you said that you were...I know that you mentioned to me that you were in the jungle with some friends and you had a pretty scary experience there. Can you say a little bit about like how you came to be there, and what happened?Kate: Yeah, definitely.I was a, I suppose an assistant to the woman that owned the retreat center. And we'd become really good friends because we obviously worked really closely together. We were offered a piece of land possibly in a part of the jungle called Manu which is known as the eyebrow of the jungle of Peru. So we went to visit, and our friend who also went with us, he was also an Andean priest. He went and hired a boat and took us to this special island which had quite rare breeds of certain animals, mammals and things. So he takes us over there and we're just so excited to see a different part and see rare species. Onto the land, you know you just start walking around and admiring things and I think it was about a third of the way around this island and all of a sudden something hit me.When the jungle gets angryKate: It felt like I'd suddenly started menstruating but it wasn't that time, it felt like all of my guts were just turning around. I just suddenly went white. Me: Wow!Kate: Literally it just felt like, I don't know, I could have eaten something that didn't agree with me, all that kind of stuff. So my friend tried to do an echo cleansing on me. Now all that did - this is the dirty part of the story – was give me diarrhea. It was awful. My body was emptying, everything was too heavy. I was getting rid of everything. It was really quite scary as it progressed.And then this feeling came over me that the jungle was angry. There was always this element of kind of doubt, skepticism I guess.Getting lost in another worldBut I was about to get lost in another world. The jungle felt like it was pulling me. The world that I knew, that part of the jungle that I was seeing with my physical eyes was disappearing. Me: Wow! That's scary!Kate: Terrifying. And interesting at the same time.Me: Yeah, kind of like 'this is really scary but this is really cool!'Kate: I mean I got really scared up until the point where I thought, 'OK, maybe I'm going to leave this other world that I know and I'm gonna be taken to another world'. And when I reached that level of acceptance, you know, that strange place of like 'OK this is just happening', I told my friends to go on without me. I said, “This is where I stop”. And it was like, it was, I don't know, it was like I was disappearing.Me: Wow.Kate: Yeah, I...after feeling scared it was suddenly this peace that took over. But then my friends became scared because they realized how real this had become. You know, they couldn't just leave me in the jungle.Me: Yeah.Kate: And the Andean priest, he was suddenly panicking around me. He was saying in Spanish, in Quechua, panicking about “Oh I haven't done it, I haven't done it, I haven't done it!” He was going on about the ritual or the ceremony that we were supposed to do when we arrived at this land.A hurried ceremonyKate: And so all of a sudden he's scrambling in his pockets to get things out and I was just flopped on the ground at this point and I had no idea what was going on around me other than his scrambling. He got out the cocoa leaves and he made like a little fan of these and he started doing ceremony. And he was doing all these different things around me but I didn't have any awareness to be able to learn or witness or anything, it was like I was being absorbed into the jungle floor.The next thing I know he's yanking me up off the ground saying “Stamp on the floor! Stamp on the floor!” Like this. And I was just like “I can't do it, I can't even lift my leg,” like I had nothing left, no physical ability whatsoever. But he was so persistent I just went and I just, I just kind of just flopped my foot on this space and I later found out that he'd buried the cocoa leaves there.And as I touched my foot down, something happened and I felt a little bit stronger. So then he went, “Again!” I stamped again a little bit harder with the strength that I'd found. And he said, “Again!” I stamped my foot even harder, and every time we did this, my energy started coming back and my color started coming back and I felt myself being drawn in, like my energy bodies being drawn back into this physical body. Until we'd done it enough that they felt comfortable with us making our way away from there.Me: Wow. Yeah, and then you just left at that point? Were you supposed to stay longer?Kate: I had to lay there while they went off in the boat for a while so I had to lay in the jungle for a bit and stop. Just to kind of recoup and make sure that I'd gathered all the parts of me back together I think. Me: Yeah, of course, yeah.Fear as teacherKate: And I gave my thanks and you know, and I said, “Sorry for not knowing better”. I should have known better, that's what I was there to learn, you know. How to respect these places.Me: Yeah, but you were there to learn. I would have thought the Andean priest would have... I mean, I would have been blaming him! (laughs) Right? Wasn't he kind of there to, you know, to guide you and look after you? I mean I would have been like, “Dude you forgot something! Look what happened to me!” No?Kate: Well, I suppose, but I didn't see things that way at that time. I kind of overtook responsibility if that makes sense. But I gave my thanks to the jungle at that point because that's when my skepticism left and I really started to trust that Spirit is there to guide. And it really showed me its strength, and the only way it could do that was through fear.Me: Wow.Kate: Yeah, I was really, really grateful to have learned that lesson because without that I wouldn't be able to practice, you know, the techniques that I do today.Me: I bet the Andean priest learned a lot too, right? I bet he never did that again! (laughs) Right?Kate: (laughs) I don't think so!Me: Almost killed a tourist, can you imagine? Oh my goodness. Wow!What Kate does todaySo then you said that that experience helped you do the techniques that you do today, so how? Like, how come? What was it about that particular experience and what did you take from there I guess is what I want to ask, that you now use? Yeah, that you use now?Kate: Well it's just the level of trust.Me: Ah, OK. That makes sense.Kate: When I'm doing the healings or ceremony or anything, I endeavour obviously – I mean sometimes ego gets in the way and makes you feel small. But that's quite rare these days. I just allow Spirit and the ancestors to guide me.Me: Yup. Yeah, because you have that trust now thanks to your experience in the jungle. I get it, yeah. Wow!So then, yeah, what do you do now to help other people? Because I know you do lots of different things, do you want to say a little bit about that?Kate: Yeah, well the main thing that I endeavour to do, like anyone that I come across I try and support and empower. Even if it's the smallest thing. And give people that different perspective on themselves. I think we're so made to feel belittled and that we think that, you know, to think good of ourselves is to be arrogant. But actually we need to come to a space where we can be comfortable and love ourselves without that. Me: Yeah.Kate: It's really hard to explain! I lead retreats and...Finding the Wild WomanMe: So what kinds of things do you do at the retreats? For example, do you take people on shamanic journeys as a group? Kate: So for the retreats, what I focus on at the moment is women. And I do this alongside a lovely lady called Amy who runs SoulShine social enterprise and we, well we call it Finding the Wild Woman. And it's all about rewilding, so finding that part of you that's been repressed through, you know, all the things that we should and shouldn't do and expressing your authentic self.Me: Oh I like the sound of that, yup!Kate: So we do all sorts of things.Me: Wow, that sounds quite fun.Kate: Yeah, we use all the different elements as well. So you know, we run through kind of water, earth, fire, air, spirit...so people can connect back with those. The very base elements of this world.Me: Wow, that's very cool.Individual help, even at a distanceMe: So you do those at the retreats, and then I think you said for individual people you help them find balance and things? Like what do you do for individuals? Because I know you also said you do some things at a distance as well. Kate: Yeah, so whether it's distance or whether people are there, I'll connect with them and I'll allow Spirit and ancestors again to work through me. I use my drum, rattle, feathers, anything. I always ask if the person's comfortable with it. Yeah, and then I use the vibe to kind of realign, as everything's made of vibration. The intention is to realign those things, on any level that person wants to work.Me: OK. So do people normally come to you...yeah I would imagine people would come to you with a really specific problem, right? Can it be any kind of problem? Like, I don't know, like everything from physical problems like physical ailments to maybe emotional problems or mental problems? Kate: Yeah, definitely.Me: So a bit of everything. Super! OKKate: The most common tends to be physical or emotional, but actually you find out that they're all interlinked so you just follow that path until...Me: Yeah, I know what you mean. Training for the Celtic sweat lodgeMe: So do you run sweat lodges? Do you use that tool in your work at all?Kate: I'm not running them yet, I'm gonna do another 2 years learning the Celtic lodge.Me: So how long does it take then to train to learn the Celtic sweat lodges?Kate: Well, I'm taking three years to do it.Me: Three years, OK. Is that your choice to do it over a longer period?Kate: Yeah, I know that you can learn the practicalities in a couple of weekends, but to have the experience of actually supporting people through that process...Me: Oh yeah, that's the biggest bit, yeah.Kate: It's a very different ballgame.My own experience in a sweat lodgeMe: Yeah, of course, cause I know, I mean I know for me that when I did a sweat lodge, yeah it was years ago now. And at the time I was...I was a total mess!And so when it got really, really hot, I could feel that kind of...how can I describe it? It was kind of like as if there was a well at the bottom of my being that was filled with all these like dark stuff. You know, fears and things like that that never got to come up to the surface, you know? That never got acknowledged.Just like really primal stuff, you know, almost as if you could tap into your most primal fears because there was no cultural barrier. There was no mental barrier, you know.You were just so hot that your mind...I mean for me my mind almost just left my body really because it was just so hot. And I thought that was...that was quite an amazing experience.I mean for me I was like wow! It was scary but it was also really cool and I can imagine that for some people... I mean, I like to think that I'm a pretty strong cookie but I imagine it would be scary for people to come to grips with what they find and to have to kind of, yeah, deal with that. I mean if they uncover something they didn't know about themselves before, maybe something that's super scary, then yeah I would imagine you have to have the tools to deal with that, right?Kate: That's right, yeah. You've got to be able to support people after they've kind of gone through the sweat lodge process. Like you say, sometimes people are left with things that they need to kind of then kind of speak through or go into a bit more.Me: Wow, yeah. But I'd definitely say better out than in, right? All that stuff.Where to find KateKate thank you so much for coming on to share your story. There's a friend of mine that also mentioned that when you hold any kind of retreat or workshop or any kind of event in nature, she said just ask the spirits there for permission so you're on their terrain as it were. So that's a really good example of what can happen if you don't, right? I'll have to tell her about it. Well, I'll have to get her to listen to the episode.But thank you so much for sharing that, I really appreciate it and I'll link to everything that you do below, but do you just want to say where... Where can people find you? What's the easiest way to find you?Kate: Yeah, it's easiest to find me on Facebook at the moment because I'm still working on my website but that's at kfheartwisdom.Me: Super! OK. I'll put the link to your site as well. Is it katefisher.co.uk? Is that right?Kate: Yeah.Me: Thank you so much, I really appreciate it, and I think I'm going to dive into our food tip.Foods to feel groundedAnd it's really funny that there was all this stuff about stamping on the ground and everything because...I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I would share one of the best foods to feel grounded. And first I do want to kind of emphasize what I mean when we say grounded.When we feel grounded, we feel more connected to the earth. Now this might sound airy-fairy, but it's actually really important. So you can think of feeling grounded as the opposite of scatterbrained. In other words, instead of feeling confused, all over the place, not knowing what to do, when you're grounded you actually have a clarity of purpose. It enables you to not only get things done but to know what those things actually are that you need to do for your own happiness.And believe me, this is really, really important. I speak from very personal experience. The other way that you can think of being grounded is eating foods to feel grounded. It's kind of like getting the benefits of comfort food without gaining weight, if that makes sense. You do get that, yeah, that sense of comfort from these particular foods, but you're eating good food, you know? Rather than junk.And for those of you who want to do some of your own shamanic journeys as Kate did, this particular food that I'm going to talk about can help you stay connected to this world too.So although there are many foods to feel grounded, the ones that I want to mention here, or the one specific one is...squash!Benefits of squashAnd when I say squash, this actually covers a variety of vegetables: so you've got spaghetti squash, summer squash, zucchini, marrow and pumpkin. Those are all types of squash. Gourds as well, those are squash.Squash is one of the oldest foods around – it's been cultivated for at least 10,000 years, and it may look kind of ordinary, but it has a lot of health benefits.Now you may not know this, but squash is listed as anti-fungal, antibacterial and anti-inflammatory! It contains vitamin A, several B vitamins, folates, magnesium, potassium, iron, copper, zinc, manganese, calcium, and beta carotene among other antioxidants.So it's insanely good for a whole host of things, including managing our blood sugar, keeping our lungs healthy, helping keep our eyes sharp and strong, having strong bones, and reducing the risks of many diseases including lung cancer, emphysema and glaucoma, and that's just to name a few.Squash has many other benefits and I'll link to an article in the show notes if you'd like to read more about it.Now however before you decide to start eating bushels of squash, I do have to warn you about one thing. Squash is very good at lowering blood pressure, and if you have low blood pressure already, squash could lower it even further. So if that's you, best to eat other veggies instead. Fortunately there are lots of other alternatives that I do mention in other podcast episodes!How you eat squashNow as to how you eat squash, well there are so many ways to eat it! Most people puree it and make pancakes, or they slice it and fry it. My favorite way to eat it – and if you know me you'll know what that is – it's to spiralize it! I'll link to an article in the show notes where I show you how to do just that. You can make great pasta using squash, and you don't even have to boil it. Plus it's naturally gluten-free, so everyone can eat it!I've also got some delicious recipes that use squash in my 5-Minute Mains recipe ebook that I'll link to as well.So I hope you've enjoyed our story this week!Have YOU got a story to share?And if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your particular situation), I'd love to hear from you! Email me at barbara@rockingrawchef.comIf you enjoy my stories and want to hear more, join us and subscribe! I share one amazing, true story a week. And if you've got any questions, just pop them in the comments! And if you're listening on iTunes, do give me a review, that would be awesome.I hope you have an amazing day, thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESHow to spiralize veggies: http://rockingrawchef.com/what-is-a-spiralizer-and-what-can-it-do-for-me/5-Minute Mains and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Foods to feel grounded: https://www.sarahpetrunoshamanism.com/blog/12-foods-for-feeling-grounded/Benefits of squash: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/fruit/squash.htmlKate's bioKate has studied many esoteric and spiritual practices to a basic level from an early age (13). When her Saturn return began (age 28), Kate moved abroad to study different healing techniques with healers and shaman of Philippines and Peru. She learnt that to know and embrace all parts of yourself is where true healing happens. With a holistic attitude to life and endeavouring to approach life from the heart, Kate believes that all aspects of the self - mind, body and spirit - play a part in the health of the person. Finding balance in all these aspects, we can live to our full potential.Kate's website: http://katefisher.co.ukKate on Facebook, YouTube​

Corrina's journey from dating guys to finding a wife...thanks to travel sickness! And of course the best food to help with travel sickness (in case you've already found your partner...)In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food for travel sickness (in case you've already found your wife or partner).OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.Our guest, Corrina Gordon-BarnesI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Corrina Gordon-Barnes. Corrina is a Relationship Coach who’s committed to a world of happy couples and happy families. She teaches her clients how to be really good at relationships.So Corrina, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today!Corrina: Thank you so much for inviting me to connect with you.Me: Oh well you're so welcome! I love your story and I really can't wait for us to share it with everybody.Corrina's story, starting with being boy madMe: Without further ado, the first question I wanted to ask you...and I've said a little bit about what you do now, but when you were small, or younger, how did you see your dream relationship one day? Did you have princess dreams or did you have a particular type of partner in mind before you actually met your life partner?Corrina: Well, I was boy mad.Me: Boy mad!Corrina: Boy mad, like going through my primary school years, I remember that I was the one in my class who learned about sex really early.I was the one who would get all these teenage magazines, even as a late primary school age kid, and I would be teaching my friends at school. “You can get pregnant the first time you have sex” and “be careful with your boyfriend”.Me: Oh my god!A relationship expert...in primary schoolCorrina: I was like this relationship expert, even at that age I was teaching my friends. Like “these are all the myths, don't do this, do this” and so I was kind of boy mad, I was relationship mad, and getting into my teens I remember with my friends we would literally kind of go out prowling the streets. We would walk along the high street in my town where I lived and we would be looking for boys and we would be kind of flirting and coy. There was always some boy that I had my eye on. Always some guy who had my attention, I would try and make sure I was in the same place as him so that he would see me...Me: Sounds familiar, yeah.So I was definitely, I definitely wanted boys. That was very clear to me.Me: And you got engaged to a boy at one stage, right?Corrina: Yeah, so I had one really long term relationship before I met who is now my partner, and we got engaged at age 17.Me: Wow!We were gonna get married and we were gonna have all these babies and we were gonna live in this particular kind of house and have this life... That was the path that I thought I was on at that age.Me: So then what happened to take you off that path?The path to self-discoveryCorrina: Well that relationship was not the right one, and so that ended 4 years later and I stayed then single for quite a while. You know, I was really wanting to find myself.So I went on this whole spiritual, personal growth journey. I read every book I could get, I did meditation, I went vegan... It had this whole kind of personal growth change in my life.Me: What do you think prompted that? Was it the end of that relationship that prompted that? I mean, what were your thoughts? Were you just like 'Oh I think I need to take care of myself more' or become a different person, or...?Corrina: I was in Australia and I was just there travelling for a year. And I met this guy – surprisingly enough – in a cafe, and he just said “Hey I go to this meditation course down the road, why don't you come along”.And so I went and that very first moment, that very first time in the room with that meditation teacher, she told me that I was a spiritual being. She said to me – to the whole group but I really heard this - “You are a spirit soul having this human experience, but you are a spiritual being”.And it was like someone had just told me who I was. Like “oh my gosh, that's who I am, this human life is how I get to journey and explore and have an adventure, but I'm a spiritual being”.The layers (or the clothes) fall awayMe: So did you have that as like an inner knowing, or how did you experience it? Because people experience those things in different ways, right? Some people experience a physical sensation of light, other people experience it as just an inner sense of knowing...Corrina: It was like all my clothes fell off.Me: (laughs) Um...I haven't heard that one before!Corrina: It was like this casing, this casing just fell off. I literally woke up the next morning and I was vegan, I went from a complete meat eater to being vegan overnight just like that, and I was just on this journey then to just explore and discover myself and get back to the essential nature of my being.It was like everything that wasn't true about me just kind of fell away over the coming months.Me: Wow. That's very cool!Corrina: Yeah, it was pretty cool. I felt much lighter, it was like clothes coming off. I was just light. I was much, much lighter, much more energized, much freer, much more joyful.Me: It's interesting that you say that for you, all your clothes coming off, like some people might associate that with being exposed, right? Being vulnerable. And for you, you associate that with being light. So that's really interesting.Corrina: And just free. I remember in Australia, those kind of days, weeks after that moment, it was like I was floating along the streets. I was so free, I was feeling so connected with people, like I had just woken up.On to Cambridge University...and a fated bus tripMe: Yeah. Wow! And so how did you get from there to Cambridge University?Corrina: Yeah, so I decided that I wanted to do teacher training so I came to Cambridge University and signed up for the English and Drama teacher training course here. And on that very first day in class, I was sat next to this woman called Sam. There was something about her that just immediately kind of, like something just...a light bulb went off or something just happened. It was like 'Huh, she's just come on my radar really strongly, why am I paying attention to her so much?'So she was really in my awareness and we were both in the same school together so we were both placed to do our teacher practice in the same school. And on the first day of teaching practice, I got onto the bus that would take us to our practice school and I got on and she was sitting in the front seat. Now I always need to sit in the front seat in a bus because I get travel sick. So I just went over to her...I'd already clocked her as someone who was on my radar, and I just said “Oh, are you OK if I join you in the front seat?” And she said “Yeah sure, I have to sit here because I get travel sick” and I said “Oh me too!”So we sat side by side and over the months to come we became best friends. Just absolutely clicked, became best friends, incredible support through the whole teaching practice.A brave declarationMe: And was there any like physical attraction at that stage? Or did that come later?Corrina: Immediately! Immediately, I was like 'Huh! What is this woman doing to me? What this? What is happening here? I just feel energized around her, she lights me up, I feel excited, I feel like the world is just kind of shinier...'Me: Wow!Corrina: Everything just felt brighter and more energized.Me: It sounds like a good, a good...I don't know, I mean, I've never like taken acid or anything but (laughs) it sounds like, you know, a positive drug experience without the drugs, right?Corrina: (laughs) Totally! Totally, a kind of 'switch-on, turn-on, I'm awake, I'm alive, oh my gosh, who are you' kind of thing.Me: Was it the same for her as well?Corrina: Well what was so funny was that over the months that then came, was that I basically told her (laughs). I just said “Basically I've realized that I'm just completely in love with you. Do you feel that too?”Me: Wow! That was so brave of you cause you were friends at that stage, right? Like best friends, you don't want to wreck your relationship with your best friend by taking the risk but you did!Corrina: I just did! And that's kind of, you know, the kind of continuity of the whole spiritual journey for me of just like I'm free. You know, I'm free. If I feel this thing, I have to follow my heart. I have to just blurt out like “I'm in love with you, I don't know if you feel the same way”. And to start out with, it wasn't something that she let herself feel straight away.Determined and keeping faithMe: So what did she say when you said this? When you blurted this out?Corrina: She said “You know, I feel really connected with you, I love you a lot as a friend, but it's not romantic for me”.Me: And how did that make you feel?Corrina: Oh, heartbroken. Absolutely heartbroken. But also there was something... it was almost like inside I was going 'You just wait!' (laughs) 'You just wait. I know that you're the one for me, I'll just be patient, I'll just hang on'.Me: Oh wow! Other people though could have had quite a different reaction, right? I mean some people might have, I imagine anyway, some people might have just, you know, stayed in the heartbroken phase and then just walked away, right? And lost it.Corrina: No, I believed, I really had faith that this... There was a reason I was feeling this way, I couldn't ignore it, I couldn't shake it, I just kept believing in it and stayed consistently just loving her and being a good friend in the months where... You know, it took 3 months basically of us staying friends and me just loving her, and loving her, and loving her. And then just after Christmas we got together as a couple.And just before Christmas...Me: And what happened? So how did that happen? Like you're friends, it's been like you know 3 months, she knows how you feel, did she just all of a sudden like make a move? Or did she say something to you?Corrina: Well, I made the move. Again.Me: (laughs) Oh my god! So it's like 'OK I've already been kind of rejected once, let me have another go'. Right?Corrina: Exactly! (laughs) Or a few gos! So there was that initial conversation and then there was another conversation where I basically said – this was just before Christmas – I basically said “Are you sure?”Me: Oh my god!Corrina: “I still feel this thing...” and she again was like “No really, we're just friends”. So that was the second time and then third time lucky! I just made a move and I thought 'You know what? I'm just gonna take a risk again, I'm just gonna be bold. What's the worst that can happen? Rejection, right? What's the best that can happen? I can be with the love of my life'.Me: Oh my god – yeah but that was still just so...Right, OK. That was still just so brave. Once is already like super brave, right? Braver than most people. Twice is like oh my god, you know, three times you start to think OK, hmmm...Corrina: Yeah, and it worked! (laughs) Third time lucky and it was just after Christmas and that was now 13 years ago – 14 years ago.What was she thinking?Me: And so what did she, like...You made the move and what did she then say? Was she like 'oh I didn't know until you touched me' or was she like 'oh I realized it at the same time as you' or was she...Corrina: I think it was less of a thought thing. It was just, you know, when it happened then it just felt right. Like 'oh this is where I was meant to be, OK, got it'.Me: And that's what she felt too? Was that how she verbalised it to you?Corrina: Well and to give her credit here, so she's gay and I'm bi, right? So for a gay woman, if a bisexual woman says 'I'm in love with you', there's gonna be a sense of 'hmm, OK maybe you're just trying this out, maybe actually this is just a kind of short-term thing for you and really you're gonna want to be with guys'Me: Yeah, I've heard that, yeah.Corrina: So it's a real credit for her that for those months she was, you know, guarding her heart for that, because you don't know what's gonna happen, if that person declaring their love for you is gonna be constant. So I had to kind of prove that actually I meant it. When I said I loved her, I meant it and I was gonna be in it for the long haul.Me: So do you think that a part of her was not testing you, but kind of like unconsciously perhaps waiting? You know?Corrina: Yeah.Me: Oh OK, that makes a lot more sense. Cause in my mind I was imagining somebody who, you know, was neither gay nor bi and who maybe had, I don't know, only gone out with guys or something and so then for somebody like that it would be much more of a 180, right?Corrina: Yeah, no she's gay through and through.Me: Well, fortunately for you as it turns out, right? (laughs)How relevant is gender, anyway?Corrina: Well that's the thing for me as a bisexual woman. For me it's not about the fact that I like men and women, it's the fact that I like people and the gender is just irrelevant.And that's kind of part of what happened in that spiritual awakening moment in Australia. It was like all of the coverings, you know, whether it's our bodies or our personalities or any of that is kind of what covers the essence of us. And actually for me the essence of someone doesn't have a gender. So I fell in love with her like I might have thought or indeed fell in love with guys in the past because I just fall in love with the person, you know, that essence of the human beings behind all the trappings.Me: That's amazing because I feel the same way. It's kind of weird how that works, right? It's kind of like yeah, you feel the essence of the person. I mean I even had one guy say to me – this was like in a totally different context and we did not get together in the end but I do remember him saying to me at one point, I mean he wasn't the right person for me but he was kind of freaked out at one stage. Because he was like “It's like you want my soul!” and I was saying “It's not that I want your soul, it's that I see it!” I believe that I see it, right?And I think that you know, some people... I mean, credit to Sam as well because she's obviously a really strong person too in that, you know, some people would be freaked out by that, right? Some people would be like 'oh well...it's the real me here that's being...I don't know if I want to say exposed but seen, right? Some people...we use those trappings to cover stuff up, right? As we all know, so...That brings a level of intimacy that's probably quite cool I would imagine, right?Corrina: Yeah, and you know, don't get me wrong, I love that she's a woman as well. I love her long hair and her soft skin and her blue eyes, all the things that make her a woman as well I love. So it's not like I don't see those things, but that was never gonna be a filter, like I would only go for...The spectrum of sexualityMe: Yeah. I mean it's really interesting because I...for me, I'm sure, I would imagine perhaps for you as well, I see the whole homosexual/heterosexual thing as this big spectrum and I have a really good friend who...Well I do playback theater and one of my friends, she's in a playback theater troupe where they're all either bi or gay or whatever, and then we did a workshop at one point. They were inviting guest playbackers to go. And one of the exercises they did that was...I just thought it was really cool. They said 'put yourself...if stage left is like totally 100 percent gay and stage right is totally 100 percent heterosexual, put yourself on the spectrum, place yourself physically where you think you are'. And it was really cool to see people, you know, all along the stage, all at different points. I just thought that was very normal, right? Because we're all...for me, anyway, in my mind we're all spiritual beings and so as you say, there's no gender there, right?Corrina: And for some people there are. You know, that's the thing, people who are that kind of 100 percent on the spectrum, brilliant, they're really clear that they only want people of the opposite or the same sex. Yes, spectrum is beautiful.What Corrina does nowMe: Yeah, wow! So now I really want to know more then about how... (laughs)...how you went from, well, what you do now to help people with their relationships. Because obviously you have a lot more knowledge than when you were in primary school and I know you're helping people with a lot more than how to not get unwanted pregnancies and things! (laughs)Corrina: (laughs) Absolutely!Me: So what do you do now with people and how do you help them have these beautiful, deep relationships?Corrina: Yeah, and my work is around all relationships that are important. So it's...my clients, some of them it's really about their partner relationship but for others it's about their relationship with their mom or their daughter or their brother.For me, connection...it's a kind of cliche but connection is what we're hard wired for. We as human beings love to connect, we love to love people with our full hearts. But there are so many things that stop that from happening within us. We get resentful, we get frustrated, we get disappointed, we feel let down, we feel indignant, all of this.And I over the course of my own personal journey have found a very, very miraculous way of dealing with all those blocks. So it's the process of questioning your thoughts, questioning your stories, that block connection.An example of our made-up storiesSo let's say I'm with Sam and let's say she's saying something that sounds critical. My story in my head goes, 'she's criticizing me, she doesn't love me, she's being mean to me'. You know, 'I want her to be kind, I want her not to point out my flaws', all of that. That is all story. It's all mental. It's all...Me: Yes! It's all made up.Corrina: It's all made up! And we don't realize it, we think, 'no but this is true, she's criticizing me, this is what's happening'. And so what I am so blessed to have come into contact with a number of years ago is the process of questioning those thoughts. Just sitting with those thoughts and asking them, 'Is this true? Is this accurate, is this the correct interpretation of what's going on?' Not just is it true that that's what's going on, but is it true that I would be better off if it were happening differently?Me: OK...Corrina: Like am I sure? So let's say your loved one is truly critizing you. They're saying to you “you're a stupid, ugly, whatever, whatever”. Can I be sure that my happiness depends on them not saying that? Can I be sure that I can only feel good about myself and peaceful if they stop doing that? Because it sets up a very limited version of life if I'm always waiting for someone else to give me something, to give me what I think I need in order to be peaceful and happy. It's like I delay my peace and my happiness until other people and other circumstances arrange themselves in just the right way.Our rules...and our scriptsMe: Yeah, it's like our rules, right? Where we all have these rules about what has to happen for us to be happy and the more...the easier it is to be happy, then the happier we are, right?Corrina: Exactly, exactly. I talk about our scripts. It's like, I realized pretty early on with Sam that I had a script, that if she followed this script and she said and she did exactly what I, you know, expected her to do then I would feel happy, but if she went off script then I wouldn't be happy, I'd be pissed off. She really helped me see this, she said to me one day “Why don't you just give me your fucking script Corrina! Give me your script, tell me what I need to do”. And I was like “How dare you! This is just what you're meant to do, you're my wife, this is how you're meant to treat me”. Then it kind of dawned on me a few days later, like 'oh my gosh, my script is the source of all of my unhappiness. Every moment that I want her to be doing something other than what's reality, I am causing my own unhappiness'.Corrina's 'big work'Me: Right. So then your relationship was, I guess, far from...I don't want to say far from idyllic, but you had to work through some of this stuff in your relationship with Sam?Corrina: One hundred percent. I wouldn't be doing this work if I hadn't had to...if this hadn't been my big work. You know, so yes like I was completely besotted with her in the beginning, and we got together and it was blissful, and then all my stories started to kick in. 'Hmmm, well she's not this' and 'hmmm, she said that and that's not OK' and 'would I be better off with someone who did this' and you know, all those stories eroded what I had imagined would be this perfect relationship. So it's like I had to work on that, I had to take those stories and stop those stories from sabotaging this beautiful relationship that we had underneath all those stories.Me: Yeah. It's good that you managed to do that, thank goodness, right?Corrina: I mean, it saved my marriage. It saved my relationship.A daily practiceMe: And did it take a long time?Corrina: Yeah, it's a daily practice. It really is a daily practice, it's like if you want to be fit, like you've done today (laughs), you go to the gym, you go for a run, you do your yoga. You don't just be like 'oh I'll do it one time and then it's done'. If you want a healthy, thriving, fit relationship with anybody, whether it's your son or your dad or your sister, there's daily practice to do. There's daily work to do every time you get triggered, every time something gets in the way of you being totally, wholeheartedly connected with the human being in front of you, you've got something to look at there.Me: Yeah, but at least you can...I mean, what am I trying to say, there comes a time when you catch yourself, right? At least, you know, having done a certain amount of work, then you can get to the point where you see what's happening, right? As an observer almost and you can go 'OK hang on, I'm doing this again, this is my script'. Whereas at the beginning, you know, when people aren't even aware of their scripts, I imagine it takes them a little bit... well it depends on the person I guess, right? How much time it would take them to start to see and to start to implement I guess the tools that you give them, right?Corrina: Absolutely, yes, you're completely spot on.When you get triggeredAnd you know, now I'm at the point where I get triggered and it could be like anything, right? It could be I'm on Facebook and I see a message from someone and I feel like 'oh they should have, you know, complimented me rather than give me negative feedback on something'. Right? Instantly, 'oh! OK, there's a trigger! A button's gotten pushed'. And now I'm at the point where I'm like 'Oooh, good, what's here for me?'Me: I do the same thing, that's really funny! Yeah, I had something that happened the other day that made me so angry and then I'm like 'OK if this is making me this angry and, you know, the other 30 people in the room are not angry, they actually think it's quite cute...' (laughs)We all get triggered, even by 8-year old authorsI'll tell you what it was, it was quite funny. I was at this day workshop with an amazing speaker and there was this little girl, she's like 8 years old and she's written a book. Actually she's written 3 books, right?Corrina: Wow!Me: And it made me so annoyed! And I just thought...you know, not only envious, obviously envious, you know, 3 books at age 8, but also annoyed because, you know, her mom was there and I knew what it was. It brought up all the old scripts of, you know, stage mothers because I did theater before and so I had a good friend who had a stage mother who was just absolutely unbearable whereas, you know, my mom was the opposite.So I see what you mean, you get these reactions, right, that are completely irrational because the people around me were applauding her and they were like 'oh isn't that wonderful' and I was like inside going 'this is making me so angry!' But we all get triggered, don't we, right?Examples of tiny triggersCorrina: Oh, everyone. And it could be like the tiniest thing, that's what I always find fascinating. It could be just one line in an email. Or it could be just the way that your partner, you know, turns over in their sleep, just the tiniest little things. Often my clients say to me “Oh, you know, I can't bring this to you today, it's just so small” and I'm like “No, no, that's exactly what to bring!”. The fact that he put tofu in the stir fry rather than kidney beans, you know. There was something, there was some offense against you. So there you are with that 8 year old girl, that offense that she's committing against you in that moment that's kind of violating something is like, you know, 'she's further ahead than me' or 'she's achieved one of my life goals' or, you know...Me: Yeah, and she's 8 and I'm 55!Corrina: And she's 8! It's just to be so compassionate with ourselves that 'oh look, there's this part of me that feels in some way threatened or violated or hurt by this, let me just so lovingly look there and heal that part of myself'.Being compassionate with yourselfMe: Ah, yeah, that's a really key point there that you brought up so I just wanted to emphasize it, yeah. That being compassionate with that part of ourselves, right? Rather than being like, OK, you know, with that kind of...what's the word, forced smile on our faces, going 'Ah, another beautiful part of me to transform', you know (laughs), right? Right? And we can be quite hard on ourselves with that, right, and be like 'OK what's at the bottom of this!' and take a kind of like pickaxe to it. At least that's what I would do or could do rather than choosing to as you say, acknowledge with love that part of ourselves and treat it as part of, you know, part of the inner child or whatever you want to call it, that needs love and compassion. That's a really interesting point that we don't want to forget. Wow! That's very cool.How to work with CorrinaSo when you work with people, I would love to hear just a bit more about what the different ways are that you...Do people come to see you in an office, or do you do things online, or how does that work?Corrina: Yes, so right now it's one to one. There's a potential of me offering something else in the kind of group workshop, retreat way, but not for now. What I do is I do free videos, everyone can just watch a free video every week, all about relationship hotspots and how to move past them, and then if people feel inspired and really like they're wanting that support, they can have the one to one coaching. And for now that is by Skype or by phone, and I'm just starting to also offer that in person as well for people who I'm unable to physically meet with.Me: Yeah. That's really fantastic, well thank you so much. What I'll do is, I'll link to everything that you do in the show notes but where's the best place for people to look online to find out more about what you're doing and more about you and to get access to the videos and things?An online video library...and a 7 Day Relationship ChallengeCorrina: Yeah, so if they go to corrinagordonbarnes.com, I'll just spell that out, and if you go to the blog page that's where I've got all the videos and articles that have happened so far. So that's a really good place just to go, it's like settling into a library of relationship wisdom and gems, just settling in and watching some of the videos and just seeing if the approach makes sense to you.The right people for this work are people who watch a video and go 'oh my gosh, that makes so much sense!' And they apply that tip that I'm sharing and they come back and they say “Wow I had this incredible experience with my mom! Because I did the thing that you...” I do like challenges in the video so they're like “I did the challenge that you set and I had a completely different experience with my mom this week, thank you!”Me: That's brilliant!Corrina: It's so good, it's so satisfying. So on the blog page that's where people can look at all the videos so far. And on the homepage people can sign up for the free 7 Day Relationship Challenge.7 days to feel more connectedMe: That sounds intriguing for sure!Corrina: Yes! It's 7 days to feel more connected, that's the overarching focus. How can you feel more connected? That beautiful feeling of just wholehearted connection with the person in front of you, and I give a number of challenges that you can actually implement to help you feel that way.Me: That is really fantastic! Well, I mean yeah, because as you say, we're all starving for connection and I mean, we could do a whole episode just about the different ways people connect, right? Through food and smoking and alcohol, and, you know, apart from people, right?Corrina: Facebook!Me: Facebook! There's so many...it's a massive, massive topic but...so I wish we had more time! But thank you so much for being here to share your story, because I love your story and I love your journey and I really, really love what you're doing right now, so I'm really grateful that you took the time to share that with us, so thank you so much!Corrina: You're very welcome, thank you so much!A food to help with travel sicknessSo now I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best foods you can eat for help with travel sickness. And I think it will come as no surprise for most of you anyway to hear that that food is...ginger!Ginger has so many benefits it's ridiculous. Not only can it help with travel sickness, but it's also beneficial for other causes of nausea, like morning sickness, and it can help with pain relief as well.Why ginger is so helpfulSo this powerful little root contains loads of antioxidant and antiinflammatory compounds, including curcumin and capsaicin which are also found in turmeric which is another superfood. They're part of the same plant family, turmeric, ginger and cardamom.Ginger also contains a ton of vitamins and minerals, including calcium, potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, niacin, iron, zinc and folate. A big list, right?And ginger is a great way to warm us up, because it's a diaphoretic (that was my new word for today), which means that it heats the body from the inside out. So if you live in a cold climate for example, ginger can literally help warm you up inside. It also helps promote sweating, which is why it's so good to have ginger tea if you've got a cold and you need to sweat out some toxins.Ginger even helps with pain reliefBut did you know that ginger can also help with pain relief? Two examples are exercise-induced muscle pain (so if you work out, eat some ginger), as well as menstrual cramps. So the next time you're feeling crampy (I don't know if that's a word but I've just decided it is!), make yourself some strong ginger tea and see how you feel.Ginger can also help reduce inflammation, so scientists are looking to see if it can help with cancer, and particularly colon cancer. Ginger also is showing promise for helping treat that as well as inflammation caused by osteoarthritis.I'll link to an article in the show notes that has more information about ginger's many properties and benefits, it also includes links to the actual research in case you'd like to know more about that. And in addition I'll link to an article that has some overall tips for avoiding travel sickness, including using ginger.So how do you eat ginger?If you're feeling nauseous and you want instant relief, well, you can definitely try peeling the root and gnawing on a piece...although I haven't done that myself. Ginger's pretty strong stuff.What I do is I usually juice a small piece of ginger with some carrots and apples for a really zinging morning juice. It tastes really, really good. Or you can pop a piece into your blender with other veggies and maybe some fruit for a green smoothie or a soup to give it a bit of a zing. It also helps you use less salt because it's got a really strong flavor.Other people prefer to slice a few pieces into some very hot water and let it steep for a while with a slice or two of lemon to make ginger tea.And you can also grate ginger into soups, curries and other savory dishes. Or even just chop it finely and use it in stir-frys.I'll link in the show notes to some recipes that I've got in my 5-Minute Mains recipe ebook that use ginger too, such as my Green Thai Curry.One thing for sure that I definitely recommend is that you use fresh ginger root wherever possible, rather than powdered ginger or capsules. I say that because the fresh vegetable is so easy to use and it's always best I think to have the actual vegetable rather than some dried out version in a plastic capsule. But then again if capsules are all you have access to, better that than no ginger!If you do try something new with ginger, definitely share in the comments because I want to know!Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you!Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Mains and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article with nutritional information on ginger as well as links to scientific studies: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265990.phpArticle with general tips to help with travel sickness: http://mentalfloss.com/article/78131/9-scientifically-proven-ways-prevent-motion-sicknessCorrina Gordon-Barnes is a Relationship Coach who’s committed to a world of happy couples and happy families. She teaches her clients how to be really good at relationships – how to love full-heartedly, let go of resentments, forgive, accept and live from power not victimhood. She lives in Cambridge, England with her wife, Sam.Corrina's website: http://corrinagordonbarnes.com Corrina's Feel More Connected: a FREE 7-day Relationship ChallengeCorrina on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube

Sohini's discovery of a young boy and his amazing story, and how he inspired her to leave an upscale London legal firm to become a solicitor who helps change lives, one drop at a time. Plus one of the best foods to help fight overwhelm.In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food to help fight overwhelm, because our guest today went through something that was pretty emotionally intense.Our guest, Sohinipreet AlgWhich brings me to say that I am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Sohinipreet Alg. Sohini is a solicitor – a lawyer – who has an incredible story for us about how she left what could have been a very financially lucrative career to take a very different direction as a solicitor, all because of a young boy. She is compassionate, determined and very caring, as you will hear. So Sohini welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really happy to have you here today!Sohini: Thank you for having me Barbara, I'm excited to be here.Sohini's storyMe: Super! So Sohini, why don't you start by telling us what kind of work you were doing before you met this young boy, when you first got started as a solicitor?Sohini: OK well I think that was quite early on in my training contract, so I was doing various areas of law at that point. I hadn't finalized what I wanted to do, which area I wanted to go into. Immigration was actually not something that I wanted to go into, but as you'll see I kind of just fell into that.My main area of interest was kind of a corporate, commercial area of law, so I was mainly concentrating on that.Me: And is there any reason why you were concentrating on that to start with?Sohini: You have to do a few seats in your training before you qualify. So they gave me a commercial seat, and an immigration seat, and also a housing and litigation seat.Me: What's a seat? Is that just like a temporary post, or something?Sohini: It's about 6 months, 6-8 months of training in each area over a period of two years, and then at the end of the training you kind of naturally go into one of those areas and specialize in that.Going for the moneyMe: OK. So then your story I guess would begin... How did you find the corporate seat, first of all? Did you do that one first?Sohini: I did, and I really enjoyed that. It was something that I thought I'd like to go into just purely because of the financial side of it I think. A lot of people obviously end up going into law or anything similar thinking “oh yeah, the money”! So I think I was probably quite similar in that way.I didn't have a real interest in law in that sense, I did a History and Latin degree so completely different to law. But I didn't know what I would do with my history and Latin degree, so I thought 'the corporate and commercial side of it's gonna make a lot of money so let's try and do that!'Very long hoursSo first I went into a firm which had quite a strong corporate field and that was the first seat that was given. And I enjoyed that, it was very cutthroat, very long hours.Me: That's what I was going to ask, yeah, I mean, what was the atmosphere like? What kind of hours were you working?Sohini: Well it would easily be...you'd start at eight o'clock and you'd be finishing at maybe ten or eleven o'clock at night.Me: Wow! And was that normal even for people that were...once they'd finished their training?Sohini: Absolutely, people would just continue into the early hours of the morning if necessary. So if you're working on a deal, if you're working for an organisation or a company, they expect you to be at their beck and call so you'd be available 24/7 really. Me: Wow!Sohini: It wasn't actually too bad compared with some of my seniors. So yeah, it's pretty difficult.Me: But you enjoyed it!Sohini: I enjoyed it, well not as much as I actually then enjoyed other areas as you'll see but especially because I thought that was what I wanted to do and that was what was going to make me money. So that's what I was seeing more than anything else.Me: And you did 6 months there and then what happened? Then was it the immigration seat?Defending the homelessSohini: No, then I went to do a public law and housing seat. So it was kind of...I was dealing with local authorities, dealing with a lot of homeless people, dealing with landlord/tenant issues, nuisance, etc. It was a completely different seat, it was more personable, more client contact. That was quite nice actually, I enjoyed it. There was a lot of appearing in courts etc and assisting barristers and solicitors.Me: Were you assisting...I mean I just want to get an idea because I know nothing about law. So were you assisting...for example with the homeless people, were you assisting the homeless people? Or...I mean to me I kind of see it always as two sides, right? There's the side of the homeless person and what they want and the side of the, I don't know, the council and what they want.Sohini: I was working primarily for the individual so it would be for example the homeless person. So I wasn't working for the local authority, I was working for the individual in that situation.Legal AidMe: And how did they...so was that pro bono? Like how did you get paid?Sohini: Yeah, well it's Legal Aid, so our firm also had a Legal Aid contract with the government as well. So if you aren't able to pay and you can prove your financial situation, you do get free access to legal care.Me: Wow!Sohini: The government paid for it. We just had to basically at the end of the case prove that we'd put in x number of hours and this person wasn't able to pay privately and so we were paid accordingly from the government.Me: With the homeless people, what kind of things would you help them do? Did you help them get housing then?Sohini: Exactly. So it would be where they were refused temporary housing and they could prove they were homeless, there was criteria that they had to follow. Sometimes it's pretty difficult to prove everything. Or it was just that they had temporary accommodation but they got kicked out of the accommodation because they'd spent too long in the accommodation etc. Basically it was just trying to get them housing when they deserved the housing and the local authority wasn't giving it.On into the world of immigration...dragging her feetMe: Wow, OK. And then from there you went to immigration, I guess?Sohini: Yes, my final seat was immigration and that was the seat that I really didn't want to go into.Me: And why not? What were your thoughts about it before you went into it?Sohini: I think it was just...Well, I didn't think there was much money in that area also, and I was also concerned because it's a very fast-paced, very rapidly moving area of law and I wasn't sure I'd be able to get to grips with. It's an area that you need to just keep retraining and keep on top of it because the immigration rules change that quickly. And there are so many...there's a variety of countries that people can come into the UK from, and there are different rules according to where you might be applying from. So it was just such a difficult area, that's just what I thought, it wasn't something that I wanted to move to naturally.Me: Right, so then you started going into it not really wanting to do it, and then what happened?Discovering new aspects of herselfSohini: Yeah well I think not even a couple of months into the seat, just a few weeks into the seat I quickly became very absorbed with the area actually. I was doing longer hours in immigration than I was when I was doing the commercial seat.Me: Really!Sohini: Yeah, and I think that was purely because I enjoyed it that much, and I felt that compassion that I didn't have initially, I didn't think I had in me.Me: Oh wow! That's honest!Sohini: Yeah, so it was just quite overwhelming when I joined. I mean the firm that I was with, they have an excellent track record with immigration law and it's one of the biggest departments in the UK. So we had a variety of immigration clients. We had private clients, we had Legal Aid clients, we had asylum seekers, you know it was all sorts of clients, people who were in the UK unlawfully or illegally trying to legalize their stay. There was just such a variety and listening to people's stories, finding out what their background was, why a lot of them really felt the need to live in the UK, what had happened in their past, it was amazing. Hearing the stories was just amazing. Very heartwarming and very humbling as well.Me: And so speaking of stories, this brings us to the story that you mentioned, right? That seemed to affect you the most, is that right?A young boy...under a truckSohini: Yeah, exactly. I think it was because I hadn't come across many such cases before. But it was a young boy who...and I think it was early in the evening and I was getting ready to actually leave the office. We got a call that there was a young boy who had entered the UK unclaimed. That was assumed. He couldn't speak any English and he'd come under trucks. He was kind of held on under the trucks, so the truck drivers didn't even know that they'd picked him up in Calais for example.Me: Oh wow, how was he under the truck? I think you said he was strapped? Like somebody had...Sohini: He was strapped under the truck so...Me: So somebody presumably strapped him under the truck, right? Because he came from Afghanistan, right?Sohini: I mean you'll find a lot of kind of people who help or assist asylum seekers to cross the borders in very dangerous ways. We all know about what's been happening with you know, people crossing the rivers and things like that and people go to extreme lengths and this boy was very young, you could see that straight away.Me: How old was he about do you think? Roughly?Sohini: I think he was probably about nine or ten.Me: And do you have any idea how long he was strapped under that truck?Sohini: He was strapped for quite a number of hours. So he had come from Calais, he was strapped from Calais and he came into Dover, so yeah, he risked his life.Me: At least six or seven hours, right?Sohini: Yeah, a very long time.Going to DoverMe: So what happened? They called you and they said what? Did they say “Can you come? There's a boy that's just entered the UK”?Sohini: Basically I think the lorry driver then realized when he stopped at Dover that somebody had just come over under the truck. And the boy couldn't speak much English but I believe as far as I can remember the truck driver tried to call the local authorities etc and they didn't know what to do. They called the firm I was working with because they knew that the immigration team was pretty big and we dealt with a lot of asylum cases at that time. We got a call and they asked us to come to Dover to speak to the boy and find out what it is that he wanted to do in the UK.What to do firstMe: So what was your reaction when you first saw him? Like you arrive in Dover and then you see this boy...Sohini: It was just... gosh, the fear on his face, I still remember that. It was just...he couldn't speak any English, he didn't know where he was, he'd left his family behind, didn't know what had happened to his family. He didn't know what was going to happen to him. So there was just this kind of overwhelming fear in his eyes that I still remember. That was quite upsetting.Me: What did you do at that point? Because you couldn't...I mean, you didn't have a language in common, so...Sohini: No, we had to wait for a translator, we did have somebody come to translate so that was really helpful. Then I had to sit with him, find out what was happening, why he'd come to the UK, where his family were, which country he'd travelled from, etc.Me: And so what did he tell you?A boy's harrowing storySohini: That he'd left Afghanistan because of the troubles that were happening there, that a lot of his family members had been killed...I think he had another couple of siblings who had all dispersed as well so his parents...his father had been killed, his mother said that they needed to flee. His mother couldn't leave because there were elderly people that she was looking after so she told the kids to leave and he was the only one who seemed to have made it to the UK.He didn't know what had happened en route to his siblings. So he was just terrified and he was just so worried for his family, he didn't know what happened to his siblings or his mother. But we couldn't get in contact with them, we didn't have contact details for them.Me: So I suppose he never found out, I imagine.Sohini: No, he never found out.Getting him helpMe: And then what did...you're with the boy, you're with the interpreter, you find out what happened, and then what did you do? Because presumably he has to sleep somewhere and get food, so who did all of that?Sohini: Well, he was initially put in a detention center.Me: What's a detention center?Sohini: It's basically a lot of people that come into the UK for example unlawfully or awaiting decisions, they're held in detention centers. They have specific ones where children can be held. So he was held in the detention center and that was quite distressing for him.Me: I'll bet.Sohini: My main aim was to obviously put in his asylum claim as soon as possible and try and get him in with a local authority so that they could care for him and he could get the right provisions. So that evening I still remember going back to the office and he remained in contact with me. He had access to a telephone number and he was just so scared. I tried my best to kind of prepare an application and try and get him suitable accommodation as soon as possible after meeting him.Me: Yeah, of course. Do you remember how long he had to stay in the detention center?Sohini: He was there for about a week.Psychological as well as physical help...Me: Wow. And so...oh you mentioned, I think you mentioned to me that they gave him a place to stay but then he also had mental health assessments or something like that? How does that work?Sohini: Basically we had to first of all verify his age and make sure that he was in fact a minor and wasn't an adult because we did find a lot of people who were trying to claim to be younger than they were so they'd get preferential treatment. So we had to establish and confirm his age. We also had to find out that he was OK. He'd been abused, there was a lot of violence used against him. So he had to have assessments taken. He had medical assessments to make sure that he was OK.Me: Physically OK, yeah.Sohini: Exactly. He was referred to a psychiatrist as well for mental health assessments and that all contributed, assisted his asylum claim because obviously we could prove that he wasn't lying and that he did go through the torture that he said had been inflicted on him. So that was all important to his case.No more contact...Me: Yeah. And so once you got housing for him, did you find out what happened to him later on?Sohini: He was...as far as I can remember, he was then put into a foster home I believe it was. So someone looked after him. Unfortunately we're not able to maintain contact on a personal level with a client.Me: Of course.Sohini: Which is a shame because I would have liked to, you know, find out how he's doing etc. I still do wonder, actually.Me: Of course, yeah.Sohini: Although I came across many such cases afterwards and even continue to do so right now in my professional life. But because I think that was the first one I came across, it stayed with me all these years. So yeah, I would like to know actually how he's doing, but...I'm sure he's doing well now.Me: How long ago was this then?Sohini: This was, oh gosh, about ten years ago.Me: Wow, so he'd be about twenty now.Sohini: Yeah. He would be, yeah.What Sohini decidedMe: Wow. Oh! So then...so then after, having experienced all that, what did you do next? I assume you...I mean you said that you decided that that was why you wanted to go into immigration, but what kind of thoughts were going in your head when you were thinking about making that decision as to what part of law you wanted to practice?Sohini: Well I think it really kind of hit me that I'm more inclined to work with people on a personal level and I just felt so satisfied and kind of content knowing that I had helped him in some form. He was so appreciative, you know, at the end of his asylum claim when he got asylum and he got accommodation, he got leave to remain, etc. Just the appreciation that he had, it was so, so nice to see. And that just beats any other feeling I had when I was in my commercial seat! It was absolutely something that I knew that I had to carry on doing.Me: Yeah. That was really nice that you felt that from him as well, right? Despite the...some things go beyond language barriers, don't they.Sohini: Exactly, definitely.What Sohini does now to help peopleSohini: So... what do you do now? What kinds of things are you doing now for people?Sohini: I set up roughly about three years ago my own immigration business, and I continue to do immigration. After I finished my training contract I was working in the City in London for an immigration firm, so I continued doing immigration law. I've since set up my own and I deal with all sorts of immigration matters. It is all private immigration matters, but I help applicants with discretionary leave, asylum seekers have asked for my help, I help private clients with work visas and I help a lot of organizations with their tier 4 visas etc. So I do a cross-section of immigration and applications just now.Me: OK. Wow. And so how can people find you if they want help with any of these things?How to find SohiniSohini: My website is probably the best place to find information on, and that's www.elmrose.com and the firm is called Elm Rose Consultancy and you'll get an idea online about what services we provide. And they can pick up the phone and call me, I'm available at any time. So everything's available on my website, you can find out a bit more there.Me: Yeah, if anybody needs help with that kind of thing, right? Especially as it's such a...I don't want to say hot topic, but well yeah, hot in the sense of controversial hot, right? It's just...it's a bit unreal, right?Sohini: Especially with Brexit just now, the European clients that I have. Their case is now just to kind of confirm their right to be in the UK. Me: Yes of course.If you're in the UK and feeling concerned...Sohini: There's a lot of concern just now. I'm even happy to speak to people just to allay their concerns or fears about what's happening in today's climate.Me: That's fantastic, that's really good to know because I'm sure there are definitely people listening who may be thinking 'I'm not British, what's my situation' and all that stuff. Yeah, thank you for that. Sohini thank you so much for sharing this story with us.Sohini: Thank you for having me.Me: You're very welcome! Yeah, I'm just very grateful that there are people like you out there that people can reach out to, you know? Because I think having lived in two foreign countries now, it can be quite a scary thing. It's good to know that people have someone like you to help them out when it all gets a bit scary. So thank you!Food to fight overwhelmRight! At the beginning of this episode, I said I'd share with you one of the best foods you can eat to help fight overwhelm. If you're in any situation where you just feel emotionally overwhelmed or wired and you need to relax. It's a food that has many, many properties besides helping us relax. And that food is...celery!Now before you start screaming and saying “Oh celery, that's diet food, it's absolutely horrible!”, it is not! There are delicious ways to eat celery that I'll share with you later.But first I would like to say just one or two benefits of celery that I think are especially cool.Benefits of celeryWay back when, Hippocrates – the father of modern medicine so I'm told – he used to prescribe celery as a tonic for people suffering from nervous tension. I mean apparently even in his day, people still got stressed.This is because celery has potassium which has been shown to help control blood pressure. Now Chinese medicine prescribes celery for the same reasons, in addition to its being an aphrodisiac, I had to throw that one in. Gotta try that one, right?Another cool thing about celery is that it appears that celery doesn't actually lower blood pressure in someone whose blood pressure is already low. I mean how cool is that!Celery also has high levels of magnesium, as well as other minerals and essential oils, all of which can help us relax. So if you're wired in the evenings, or if like Sohini you have super long days, try a glass of celery juice before going to bed. It actually tastes pretty good, and it tastes way different than munching on the celery sticks themselves.Celery is also great for detox. It's a great diuretic so it can help flush toxins and other waste out of our kidneys. Plus I think many people know that we require more calories to eat and digest celery than the celery actually contains, so it's a great food if you're looking to slim down which I think is how most people know about celery.How you eat celery...the tasty way!So how do most people eat celery? Well, I think you know that, right? We usually pick up a stick and munch on it if we're on a diet, usually cursing the poor veg at the same time and we feel like we're punishing ourselves.But there are way better ways to eat celery. One way is in a juice with other fruit or veg. You can mix fruit and vegetables in there. And one of the articles that I'll link to has a great recipe for a green juice that I'm definitely gonna try. Let me know if you try it too!My favorite easy way to eat celery is super easy: I just dip it in some nut butter. I'd say my favorite is almond butter. It's really delicious and you don't feel like a rabbit.I'll link to an article in the show notes that also has a recipe for a salad using celery that sounds pretty good, if I do say so myself. In this recipe they do mention parmesan so if you don't eat dairy, just substitute the parmesan for some nutritional yeast. It looks pretty tasty so I might try that myself.I also have an amazing recipe for my Way Better Than Waldorf Salad which takes celery to a whole new level, and I'll link to that as well. Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation),  I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESMy 5 Minute Salads & Sauces recipe ebook with my Way Better than Waldorf Salad recipe: rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipesMedicinal uses of celery, including juice recipe: www.wellbeing.com.au/body/recipes/Celery-Worth-stalking.htmlOther article with salad recipe: www.doctorshealthpress.com/food-and-nutrition-articles/10-health-benefits-of-celeryWhere to find Sohiniwww.elm-rose.comFacebookTwitterLinkedInSohinipreet Alg is a qualified Solicitor and specialised in Immigration law.  She is Level 3 OISC accredited and is a Senior Caseworker under the Law Society's Immigration & Asylum Accreditation Scheme. Sohini has worked all over the UK, including large London city based firms, and is the Director of Elm Rose Consultancy. She has an unparalleled passion and commitment to her clients.

Jessica Louise Li shares how she went from being in an abusive marriage to creating a legacy with a new love of her life using what she calls the path of Sensational Sex.And at the end of this episode I'll share with you a little food that I bet you don't know is a powerful libido booster – as well as another food that you definitely want to avoid, because it acts like a cold shower of toxicity!Our guest, Jessica Louise LiI am very excited to be joined here today by Jessica Louise Li. Jessica is a former raw food chef who now teaches women how to use the power of sex energy to unleash self-expression in both the bedroom and in business. Now I don't know about you, but that alone would get me very excited. But she's got a lot more to share with us today, so let's get started!Me: So Jess welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm super excited to have you here!Jess: Yes, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to those tips you have at the end.Me: Yeah, let's see how that turns out! We'll see if you know them – including the toxic one.I'm really glad we're able to do this because we've known each other for quite a while. So I already know your story, but I love it and I think it's quite a powerful one. You went from such a place of hardship to a place of lightness and joy. I think people will be very inspired to know how you went from one to the other, and what it was like for you.I know that for a while you had a bit of a rough time because you were in a bit of an abusive relationship. Do you want to say a little bit about that? Because I think that's where your story starts, if I'm not mistaken?Jess: Yeah definitely.Jessica's storySo I was married for 10 years – I mean it was 14 years in the long run. But it was 10 years into the marriage where things started to accumulate more and more.An abusive marriage from day 1It always...from day 1 it was mentally abusive, verbally abusive, emotionally abusive...There were 5 times when he put his hands on me and of course as we know, one time is more than enough.It wasn't until almost 10 years into the marriage where he had actually tried to take my life.My husband had actually tried to kill me as my 3 children were sleeping upstairs.Me: Oh my God, how old were your children?Jess: They were 7, 9 and 11...or actually no, that was 2010...The kids are 2 years apart so they were 3, 5 and 7.Me: Wow.Jess: They were really young.And I know that's the hard run of the story, but...I want to share it like that because that's an experience. As dramatic and as crazy and wild as it may seem to some people, it's something that I happened to experience in life. But I know that that doesn't define me.A journey tooIt's really the journey of what I experienced back then to what I am now. And that's what I'm really here for, it's the inspiration, it's the whole picture. It's not just that one incident.Me: Exactly. If people were to look at your life now, when people see what you're doing now, it's amazing. I know that you'll say a bit more about that later but it's kind of hard to imagine that you started from that kind of place. Jess: Yeah, totally. I guess that's a testament to how far I've come. It was something that was really horrifying and I wouldn't wish it on anyone for sure.Married to a killer (literally)But here's the thing: when I was in that relationship, I knew that it was wrong. Deep down I knew that I shouldn't be in there. But the thing is that I was living in so much fear, and I didn't feel like I had the resources to be able to leave him.On top of that he was someone who was involved with the gangs, so I was in fear of him having someone follow me. Or, you know, because he was in that lifestyle, he had no qualms about coming after me or trying to kill me.Like when he said he was going to kill me, I like 100% believed him.Me: Wow.Jess: Because he had killed people before. And I can say that freely now only because he passed away. He died suddenly 3 years ago, it's been almost three years now.Living in fearOne of the biggest secrets that I couldn't tell – and I think even when I met you, I couldn't say my whole story. So maybe it's perfect timing now that we're doing this interview!There's only so many details that I could say, right? It's not about ratting him out or like trying to show off, even if you'd consider that showing off. But it's to highlight that I was living in so much fear that every night I knew that I was laying in the arms of someone that has killed before.People ask me, “Why didn't you leave earlier?” A lot of people say that about abused women, 'why do you stay' or 'I don't get why you're still with him'. And I think it's not until or unless you're in that situation that you really understand why a woman stays. Like I said, of course I knew it was a bad thing. As my kids were growing up, I knew that I didn't want my daughter to see that it was OK for a man to hit her and for her to go back. And vice-versa, I didn't want my son to think it was OK for him to put his hands on a woman and then she comes back and all is great.So I had to be mindful of that. When they were younger there was so much that I could get away with, but as they got older they started to mimic certain behaviours. They started to see my ruses, they started to ask “Why does Mommy have a black eye?”The turning pointIt just got to the point where you know what? This was enough. And yeah, unfortunately it got to the night where he attacked me and tried to kill me.Me: And was that the turning point?Jess: That was the turning point, because I was on the sofa, and without going into too much detail... One of the ways he tried to kill me...He was huge, he choked me twice unconscious on the sofa.So I had three thoughts. One, that my parents would find my body here. Two, that my children wouldn't have their mother. And three, that this isn't fair, I didn't get to do everything that I wanted to do.  It was the third thought that was the catalyst. That was what made me want to take my own life, after healing, and create something that was for me. To create the life of my dreams. And to do something that was gonna benefit my kids - I was gonna be happy.I didn't want to waste time, and I didn't want to life my life for someone else. Now I wanted to live my life for me.The scariest momentActually I was very fortunate, because he had stabbed me after I had regained consciousness. He had actually stabbed me in the head.Me: In the head?!Jess: He did, yeah. And I know it's crazy and it was the scariest moment. I mean, the whole night was crazy. Crazy scary. Me: Well it's amazing that you survived!Jess: Yes, but do you know what though Barbara? If you believe in it...I do... it was divine intervention.Face to face with a knifeWhat happened was he had picked up the knife, it was a big stainless steel kitchen knife. He came towards me and he was 6, 6 feet 1 and 270 pounds at the time. Mostly muscle, a big guy. And I'm like 5 feet 4, 5 feet 5, a 140 pounds, 135 pounds.He came to me, basically we were like face to face and he picked up the knife and I shut my eyes and I was hoping that it wasn't going to hurt too much.I was like 'wow, this is the last scene I'm going to see before I die'.And I shut my eyes and I squeezed my eyes so tight, and I was just braced for the knife. I felt the knife go in and out of my scalp really fast. It was really creepy.All of a sudden he backed off. I tried to deflect the knife for one or two seconds and he backed off and I thought this was weird, I was just in so much shock.After he had already punched me, after he had already broken a chair over me, after he'd choked me unconscious twice, and now he'd just stabbed me...my adrenaline was just pumping and all of a sudden he just stopped out of nowhere so I was in a huge state of shock. Then on top of that I was like 'what the heck? What's going on?'So I actually thought he was going to go get...I knew that he had a gun in the house and I thought he was going to go get that.Divine interventionAnd it wasn't till later that I realized when I talked to him that he has a rosary. Usually as you know you don't wear rosaries. But he had his decked out in diamonds, and he made it fancy. So he was wearing his rosary at the time, and it snapped, it broke. He had owned it for years, maybe like 8 years up to that point or so. It broke, and he told me that's what snapped him out of his rage, because when the rosary snapped it took him out of what he was doing to me and he was like 'What the f am I doing?' So I keep that piece with me to this day, I have it in my room. I've done talks when I've spoken in front of organizations and young girls, I've showed it to them. Because that's what saved me. If the rosary hadn't broken at the time, I don't know whether I'd be here talking to you.Me: Wow. Whoof! Jess: Yeah.Me: It's such a powerful story that I'm kind of glued to my chair. I'm kind of like wow, where do you go...Getting out fastSo how did you leave? Was it after that night that you just like left? Did you take your kids? Did you go somewhere?Jess: So after he had left, I guess what he did was he left, he took off in one of our cars because we had two family cars. And as soon as I knew he was gone, I ran upstairs like a madwoman. This must have been like 3 in the morning so the kids were asleep. Thank goodness they didn't wake up and they didn't witness any of this.I ran upstairs, they were all sleeping in one room and I grabbed them and I said “Hurry, hurry guys, we've gotta go, something bad happened”. And they were like, “What's going on?” They were groggy...So I grabbed some blankets, some toys, I threw them in the car...And I literally just threw everyone and got myself out of there so fast, cause I thought he was gonna come back and that was my only way to escape.At one point he said “Do you wanna leave?” And I knew that as a mother I wasn't going to leave 3 kids at home. I didn't think that he would harm them, but as a mother I needed to protect them and I needed to know that they would be OK.So yes it was risky, I knew I was risking my life by staying, but heck, my kids! I grabbed them and I put them in the car, and we left. He didn't come back.Being brave, or a bit nutsAnd I was scheduled to work that night. Two nights of the week I slept over there which was that night. It was crazy because I was trying to be tough, right? So I drove back there with the kids and I wrote a message to him as I was bleeding, saying “I'm so sorry I had to leave early, I'll be back in the morning to finish working”. That was nuts!I got back in the car and I drove to my employer's place. So I was working as a caregiver and her son had hired me to take care of her. Two nights out of the week I slept there and it was that night. I took the kids and I had some skin hanging off of my hand from one of the knife wounds and I looked at the kids and I was like, “Oh man, what am I gonna do now?” And I didn't want to go to the police, I didn't want to go to the hospital because I was afraid they were gonna take my kids away.Me: Oh!When even the police let you downJess: So the last time... I had moved from Ontario which is more on the eastern side of Canada from British Columbia which is on the west coast of Canada.When I lived in British Columbia my husband had threatened me at one time in the past. He didn't do anything but he said that he would kill me. And I had enough courage to go to the police back then.And crazy enough Barbara, they said... I walked up with my two year old at the time and my son who was in a baby carrier. So I walked up the steps and I told them what happened. I said my husband threatened to kill me and it was a female police officer.She said, “Do you have family in the city?” and I said, “Yeah”. Then she said, “Who is it?” and I said, “My uncle”. She said, “Here's the phone” and she hands me the rotary phone and she says, “If you don't call him right now and tell him what happened, I'm gonna have your kids taken away from you”.Me: Oh my God! That's awful!Jess: And I thought... I had gathered so much courage to get to the police! Because in that lifestyle, you're always trained to think of the police as someone that you'd never, ever speak to, you know, that's a bad thing. But I had the courage to go there when he wasn't home, and here she tells me this. Hiding in the hospitalI bawled. I cried – and I thought, “If the police can't help me, nobody can”. So that was the experience I had going into this situation. And I thought, “I can't have my kids taken away from me”. So I was just looking at my wounds going, “Maybe I can get some bandages”.I got some bandages and I was like, “No, this is not gonna work!” So I went to the hospital and I left my kids in the car, and I felt bad.But I went in and I said, “You know, I got this wound from chopping vegetables” and she said “Right handed?” and I said “Yeah” and she said “Hmmm, tell me what really happened because you don't hurt your right hand chopping vegetables with your right hand”.Well she knew, and they're trained to look for these things. I told her, and I told her I didn't want to press charges. And it actually wasn't until 3 months later that he got arrested, and it was because I was seeing a psychologist for some counseling to help me work through some things, and she was the one that said, “You know, just enquire at the police station what would happen if you wanted to report him. Don't say you want to, just enquire”.Me: That's a good idea.More guidance and helpJess: So I drove my way to work one day, and him and I, we were... we thought we would work things out, and things were going okay. And I was like, “See you guys later, I'm gonna go to work now.”Then on my way to work, something just took my hand. As if something just took my hand and made me turn the steering wheel the opposite way. I drove to the police station and I said, “Look, this is what happened to me. What would happen if I reported this?”She comes back and she says, “Let me talk to my supervisor”. And she came back to the front and she said, “Now that the ball is dropped we have to go and arrest him”.I freaked because I said, “You can't arrest him. He's going to come and kill me now!” And she said “I'm sorry, we have to go and get him. We have to bring him in”.I said, “I've got kids, my kids are with him”. They promised that they wouldn't see him getting arrested. Unfortunately my older daughter did see that and that's traumatized her since.The staying, leaving cycle...So yeah, that's how I got out of it. And the funny thing is with abuse – and I think this is an important conversation because there's a lot of people who have gone through domestic abuse. Men and women. There's a lot that don't talk about it, or they don't recognize it. And I know that a lot of men and women, they go back to their abuser and then something happens, right? It's that whole cycle of staying, leaving, staying, leaving. That's what happened to me.So even though he got arrested, I continued to see him for about 4 or 5 months after, going to the jail, saying that I would recant my statement. I would bring the kids to the jail and I would say “Let's work this out” and I really did mean it.Family men to the rescueAnd then it wasn't until I finally got to my lawyers and I told them what happened, and they were like “OK, from this day forward, you cannot go to the jail”. They told me, they shared their reasons that they saw my husband as not a good husband and not a good father.This was coming from men that were family men. At the time I never had male role models to look to. So to have them say that, it put something in me where I was like, “Holy crap, maybe, maybe they're right”. You know?They made me promise, they said “If we're going to work together, you cannot go back there”. And the guy that I was working for said “Look, you've started something, you need to finish it”.So I was lucky that I had those pillars in my life to hold me to that, because left to my own devices, I would have just taken him out of jail, recanted my statement and I don't know if I would be here today. And my life wouldn't be where it's at today. That's how I got out of it.Like I said, looking at my kids going “I can't have them look at me as a role model and going back to an abusive situation”. And that catalyst, that moment I had on the sofa, right? Going 'this isn't fair, I didn't get to do everything I wanted to do'. I'm taking the reins back on my life.The healing beginsMe: And so you must have gone through quite a long process of...I don't know, did you do counseling? What kinds of things did you do to start to, I guess sort of change your world view, or just you know, heal things in yourself to enable you to move forward?Jess: So the psychologist that I was talking about, the police referred me to them because part of the victim services and I don't know if they have that where you are. But they only allow 10 sessions with a psychologist and after that you have to pay and it's really expensive. So I thought any help I can get is awesome, and there was one group I had for mothers and children of abuse. Myself and my youngest two went, my oldest didn't want to go. And after that, honestly it was mostly self work and that's what really shot me into this world of spiritual enlightenment if you want to call it that.I was never someone that I would have considered spiritual before this incident. And I'm grateful for what happened to me because it allowed me to really go deeper into myself and just ask myself.Looking inside and pleasing yourselfYou know, as I was healing physically, I had the time thank goodness to just heal. Like in a great spot with trees and the forest around me and animals. And I would just look outside every day and go “What would  make me happy? What does Jessica want?” That was hard for me because I had lived my life for so many years trying to please somebody else. And I lost who I was, I lost my self expression. I was not allowed to talk to certain people, my friends and family were cut off, so I had to find me again.And so like I said, most of it was work that I did by myself and on myself, and when I was ready, then I started to talk to some people and I started to network after I made the decision, “You know what? I'm going to start a business”. I think that was about the time that I met you, you know, doing the whole raw food thing. Me: Yeah, I remember, yeah.A new career, and maybe a new man?Jess: Yeah, because I became a raw food chef. Because I decided, “You know what? I'm going to go down to New York City, I'm going to train as a raw food chef”.I came back and started a catering company here in Toronto and that's pretty much the time when I had met you. And I thought I would continue my journey that way, and it wasn't until this further journey, a couple of years went by that I said to myself...I knew that I wanted a new love in my life, and what was funny was, and I know that you can relate to this as an entrepreneur because there are so many things on your plate...And I said to myself, “You know what? I want my business to get to a certain level before I start dating again”.Me: That's what I've said to myself! (laughs)Jess: I was cool with that, but then I was like “Wait a second. I could be totally be cutting off the guy that's made to be there in my life.” And when I made that decision, I just declared to the universe that I'm giving this up. If the guy is out there, so be it, I can work through this with my business at the same time”.And really, like within the next two or three months, I met Michael!Enter the relationship coachMe: Wow! How did you guys meet?Jess: So we met at a trade show. He was doing relationship coaching at the time for women, so he was helping women find a great partner. He still does some of that work as well, so he helps women find a really great partner and keep a really good relationship.So he had just released his newest book at a women's trade show in Toronto. I was walking between the aisles and I was like “I know you, I recognize this name from somewhere” and he said, “You do?” And we realized we both belonged to the same entrepreneurial group online.But what was funny was he was in a relationship at the time and I was going into a relationship. So it was one of those like 'here's my business card' and there was some attraction there and then there was no contact at all for 5 months.Dating adviceAnd then one of my friends invited me to a concert that a friend was holding. I showed up early and Michael showed up, and I'm like, “What are you doing here?” So we didn't know that we had the same mutual friends, but the universe is so funny how it works. But he showed up that night, and he was there with his girlfriend, he was waiting for his girlfriend but he came early and I came early, so we just started chatting.And I shared with him where I was at, I was getting out of the relationship that I was previously in. I said, “I know you're a relationship guy, here's the deal, what's up with this guy?”He gave me some dating advice and he said “There's nothing wrong with you, look, I do some matchmaking. Tell me what you're looking for”. And I told him. Sneakily enough, I didn't find out until later, he broke up with his girlfriend that same night!Knowing what you wantSo you know, we were Facebook messaging each other. And I said, “Well if I get too specific, here's a general idea of what I'm looking for in a guy”. Then I said, “You know what? Scratch that, here's my specifics”. And I went very specific, and I guess that on the other side he was like “Oh my goodness, this is me, I'd have everything!”He didn't tell me that, he said, “Awesome, I think I know someone for you. Can you meet me downtown for tea next week?” And I said, “Yeah, sure”. So we met and about an hour, an hour and a half talking, I said, “Where is this guy?” Because I was expecting this guy to show up. And he's like, “OK so you know that guy I was telling you about? Yeah, it's me!”Me: Oh, it's like something out of movie, out of a romcom, right?Jess: Totally! And it wasn't until that moment, until that day, that I found out that he broke up with his girlfriend back at the concert. Like once I know someone's in a relationship, to me they're categorized as off-limits.Me: Yes, of course.Jess: I didn't think that, you know, that it was gonna be him at all. And when he got that he was like 'My ex-girlfriend thinks you're really pretty'. And I'm like 'OK so the girl before this girl? I don't get it'. He said 'Oh, she's no longer my girlfriend, we broke up' and I'm like 'Ohhh...' and that's when it totally clicked in.Friends with benefitsSo we started seeing each other just for sex and he knew I had needs and I wasn't looking for anything serious right now so I was like, “Yeah, sure”. I had a couple of rules and one of them was 'We don't tell anyone about this' so for like 5 or 6 months I would go to his house and I would leave the kids because I had kids at home and he doesn't have kids. And I would drive 45 minutes each way just to go and have sex with him, twice, sometimes three times a week, and we would do this for 5 or 6 months.Then of course feelings started to...We started talking more, and then one day he goes, “I know this is crazy, but do you want to go out on a date?” After like 5 or 6 months of sleeping together, 'do you want to go out on a date'. And yeah, things just went from there, that was 2 and a half years ago and we're getting married in a few months!Me: That is so cool! You seriously have to...that has to be made into a movie, that just has to happen.Jess: Well what's funny about that is there's actually a producer who heard about my story and he wants to make a movie out of my life, so maybe we'll stick that in there.Me: Yes! You have to stick that in there!ForgivenessJess: Yeah, that's where we're at right now and life is just incredible. And see, the thing is after my husband tried to kill me, it took me some time but I forgave him and I got to verbalise that to him before he passed away.He was impressed by my healing and my journey, and he was like “Wow, sweetheart I'm so happy for you, maybe one day you can help me get to where you are”.Me: Oh wow. That must have been...How did you feel when he said that?Jess: Just chills! And it was also because we met up, we weren't talking to get back together. We met because he's the father of my kids but there was no talk of us getting back together. So we had the best communication just before he died, funnily enough. Should I stay or should I run?After they released him from jail, after he got out of jail for what he did to me... Oh by the way I completely freaked out when he was released, I was ready to run. My mom said, “Look, if you need to run and hide, you just run and wherever you are, you just tell me where you are and you're safe.” Like I was ready to take my kids in the car and just, like...Honestly, Barbara, I was Googling things like 'how to become a refugee in Australia'. I was looking for ways to escape Canada. And then I just came to the point where I was like, “If I start running now, I'm going to be running for the rest of my life”.I had a friend who when I was attacked...she's very spiritual and I wasn't there yet. But she said to me, “Jessica, you just need to trust” and I said “No” and in my mind I was like “Are you f-ing crazy? Do you know who... He's gonna come get me!” She grabbed my hand and she was like, “You just need to trust. You just need to trust”.Giving up fearAnd I totally didn't understand that at all back then, and it wasn't till later till I was just like, “I need to just trust, and everything is going to work out. The universe is going to support me. I don't know how, but I just need to give up this fear that I have”. So I decided to stay in Canada.The first conversation I had with him, it was the first time I'd talked to him since I'd left him in jail. Because he was livid when he found out that I'm not going to get him out of jail and recant my statement. I mean he was absolutely livid, he was ready to send someone to kill me. He told me this afterward, but luckily he had the time to just cool off.So when he first got out of jail, I didn't know how he was gonna react. I'm like, “This could be the worst mistake of my life or this could be the best thing”. And I just knew that the first conversation I had with him, I just had this huge feeling rush over me like 'everything is going to be fine, everything is going to be good'. I can't explain, it was just a knowing.And things just blossomed from there. Like I said, not to get back together, we were going our own ways but we were in conversation so it was a big shock that his dad called me one day and just said, “I'm so sorry, he passed away this morning”. He wasn't even sick.A huge shockMe: How did he die?Jess: He died of an overdose, and they thought it was a heart attack because 95% of his arteries were blocked in his heart. But the toxicology report said that it was an overdose and he wasn't someone to do drugs. I think what it looked like was some of the pills he was taking were laced with fentanyl, which is... There's a huge problem in British Columbia with a lot of people dying from fentanyl. They're lacing Fentanyl into other drugs currently.So it was a huge shock, a huge shock. I was driving down the street in Toronto with my youngest daughter and I just collapsed. I had to get out of the car and I collapsed. Then I was screaming, like “Why!” And I had so much of this 'you just left me here and I've got these 3 kids, but... You know, I see signs of him all the time. So even though he did that to me, I still talk to him all the time. And I ask him to look after the kids and support them and look after me, and I know that he's in a better place to be able to support me.Me: That's just what I was gonna say.Taking responsibility to empower yourselfJess: Yeah, totally. And the thing is, I could have gotten hung up on 'I was abused, this happened to me...' Trust me, I've had many more reasons than we've talked about here to keep myself in a place of victimhood and blaming everyone else. But instead what I did was take responsibility.Even when before...you know, we didn't get a chance to talk about gang rape, but in my younger years when I was gang-raped, I took responsibility for my part. Not to excuse them, but there was a certain responsibility that I had to take for myself, and the same thing with my husband.So going back and taking responsibility in those areas really got me empowered, and then, you know, people encouraged me more and more to share my story. And the more I did, the more women would stand up and say 'this has happened to me'. The more I did that, the more I realized that I have a powerful story to share. I can inspire others, hence this podcast.From sharing to teaching to rocking out seminars!And you know I've just realized that the raw food that I was doing before, it's funny how the universe has its plans. It wasn't until I met Michael and we were having this incredible sex... We had a lot of experience prior to meeting each other, but this was something different. One day he was joking around, he said, “You know, this is so great, we should teach this to people”. I said “Yes, we should!” And he's like, “Really? Cause I was just kinda kidding”.But within 5 months of that idea, we sold out our first event in Toronto and we just rocked it. It was amazing! And we have our 7th one coming up pretty soon here. Me: And those are your Sensational Sex Seminars, right?Jess: Exactly, yeah. Hopefully one day soon we can bring it to the UK.Me: You have to bring it to the UK because I want to come!Jess: Yeah!The power of sexual energySo what happened too was my sexual energy, when I was younger I always had this innate feeling of...I don't know what you want to call it. I knew what sex was or sexual feelings before a child should even know what that stuff is. And I couldn't put my finger on it as a kid, but as I got older, people would shame me and I would feel repressed. I felt like I had to shut off that side of me.What I realized was I was cutting off my sexual energy and I completely lost that when I was married. Of course we had sex, but I wasn't in the flow, I wasn't embracing my feminine energy. I didn't know about masculine and feminine energies and honoring them both within each of us, within myself and within my partner.It was the gift that I got afterwards with being with Michael that I discovered how powerful sexual energy is. Because sex energy is how we all got here, it's life energy. It runs every area of our life, it permeates into everything that we do, the way we walk, the way we dress, the way we do business, it's all sexual energy. If we can really tap into that, our life will be remarkably powerful. And that's what I want to spread right now, because I regained my power, my real power, by tapping into, by reclaiming my sexual energy. How to find JessicaMe: Wow! Now I think there's a lot of... I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who would love to know how to do just that. So how do people find you? Because I know that you help a lot of women with precisely that, so where's the best place for them to find you?Jess: The best place right now would be to go to my website, so it's www.jessicalouiseli.com and Louise is l-o-u-i-s-e and Li is l-i because some people ask, so jessicalouiseli dot com.Me: Yeah, I'll link to that in the show notes as well, so... Wow that is fantastic, and yes, you've got to bring the Sensational Sex Seminar to the UK so let me know what I can do to help make that happen!Jess: Definitely! We'll chat!Me: Well, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and for sharing your absolutely incredible story. I think the image of you with the broken rosary is going to stay in my mind for quite a while, that's really something.Jess: You're welcome!A great libido boosterNow I did mention at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you a little food that I have a feeling you may not know can boost your libido – as well as one food that you definitely want to avoid.So as far as aphrodisiacs go, you may be thinking chocolate, right? And yes, chocolate does have lots of substances that give us some feel-good chemicals, but most of us know that. I'm not going there.The food that I'm talking about is...blackberries!Benefits of blackberriesYes, blackberries. Both the berries themselves as well as their seeds are great libido boosters, according to Drs. Anna Maria and Brian Clement, who are the directors of the Hippocrates Health Institute in West Palm Beach, Florida. This is because blackberries are so rich in vitamins, minerals and antioxidants that they just have a very powerful effect on our wellbeing.Blackberries have lots of other benefits – including helping to relieve PMS and hot flashes, helping with bone health, keeping your hair clean, helping prevent memory loss and loads more. In fact there are way too many benefits to list here, so I'll link to an article in the show notes where you can read about it if you want to.How you use blackberriesHow do you eat blackberries? Well, this is easy. You pick up a big handful, about 10 berries, and that should do the trick! Or sprinkle them on cereal or a fruit pudding. Just don't have them with dairy because dairy is another food that cuts our libido short. It's very clogging, and we don't want clogged bodies, right? We want everything to be working at its max efficiency!Now blackberries are delicious on their own, but if you'd rather have them with a gorgeously tasty yet healthy dessert, I've got loads of recipes that would go really well with blackberries in my 5-minute dessert recipes ebook which I'll link to below as well.One of the top foods to avoidRight, so I have to tell you one of the top foods to avoid. I can't help it, especially because it's famous for being an aphrodisiac. And that food is oysters!Oysters are high in zinc which has been linked to the creation of hormones, but unfortunately oysters, like other bottom-feeders in the ocean, absorb a lot of toxins and parasites. And those toxins far outweigh any benefit you might get from the zinc. Oysters are not a love food, they are a toxic food!So I hope you've enjoyed our story and our foodie tips!Have YOU got a story to share?And if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your situation),  I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESJessica's website: www.JessicaLouiseLi.comArticle on foods that boost (and inhibit) libido: www.fitnessmagazine.com/mind-body/sex/libido-boosting-foods/Benefits of blackberries: www.valuefood.info/1292/health-benefits-for-blackberries5-Minute recipe ebooks: rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes 

Gabriella Guglielminotti Trivel shares her story of how she went from an abusive relationship, to losing her job, to freedom in Antarctica. Plus my favorite warming ingredient that you can add to your food AND put on your body, with surprising results.Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:From Abuse and Divorce to Freedom in AntarcticaIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you one of the best ingredients you can add to your food when it's cold outside. And you don't have to just use it for food. You can actually add it to something that has nothing to do with food and that I know will surprise you. The best part is that when you do that, nobody has to know!OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story. I am very excited to be joined here today by speaker and visionary Gabriella Guglielminotti Trivel, author of the book 'Antarctic Odyssey a New Beginning'.In her own words, Gabriella is A Woman of the 21st Century, Author, Speaker and Female Cycle Consultant and she's got a fascinating story to share with us today, complete with whales, seals and penguins as well as her own life lessons learned.So Gabriella welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today!Gabriella: Hello Barbara, thank you so much for this opportunity.Me: You're so welcome! I love your story because you overcame some really difficult situations and then you went on to do some amazing things, so I think that people will really enjoy it.Can you tell us – I mean, I know that now you do all kinds of wonderful, beautiful things, but it wasn't always like that, right? I think at the beginning you were talking about a relationship that wasn't exactly ideal for you. Is that the best place to start?Gabriella's storyGabriella: Well I suppose it's the best place to start because to be totally honest, I think that whenever a story starts, meaning an intimate relationship story, nobody really plans to go into something that is not nice.The honeymoon comes, everything's fantastic, but then both the characters start pouring into the relationship their own characteristics, their agenda, their baggage... It becomes like a bit of a murky puddle.Me: I know what you mean, yeah. It doesn't sound like a good thing to have, a murky puddle! I know that it didn't start out as a murky puddle. And I know that you're originally from Italy, right?Gabriella: Yes, I was born in a city called Turin in the northwest part of Italy, at the foot of the Alps. It's in the Piedmont region, from the French “au pied du mont”. It's a very mountainous region with plains and hills and so forth, and Turin is only a few kilometers from the border with France. I grew up in a mountainous environment, going skiing and trekking in the mountains with my parents. And so a few decades later I ended up in flat England.Me: Yeah, with hardly any snow, right?Gabriella: Well, it doesn't snow much but it does sometimes in Scotland. When I went to Scotland it was always summer, but they do ski there I was told. Working in the MaldivesI ended up in the UK passing through the Maldives, because that's where I was working for an Italian tour operator. On the island where I was based I met this Briton in 1997. In my spare time I was diving, underwater with tanks, because I was a diver before. The Maldives is a diver's destination so when I could, I was diving.The diving instructor buddied me up with this chap who was alone who was British. He was actually quite at home in that little island because he had been 10 or 11 times already. We were buddied up together and so that's how it started. As you can imagine, in a very romatic place... we basically met underwater!Me: Oh that's very cool!Gabriella: Sometimes when I think about it, it sounds like it was taken from a fiction book or something. But it happened to me, and then of course... he was there for a couple of weeks and we had opportunities to get to know each other a bit.The island was so big that it would take you 5 minutes walk to go around it. So obviously it wasn't very difficult to keep bumping into each other, that's how it started in a way. And I'm sure that part of the story was because it was in a romantic location even if I was working, and he was on holiday...More trips togetherBut of course what happened was he went back home and we kept in touch. He was writing me letters. And then when I finished my contract there, I went to visit him in London.Of course the fascination hadn't faded yet so a month later I moved in with him for good, and it was very kind of rushed.Me: How long had you known each other at that point?Gabriella: When I moved in with him, basically I had just met him in the Maldives a couple of months earlier and he had stayed there for two weeks. But then when I went to visit him after working in the Maldives, I went to visit him for a week or so and in that week he asked me if I wanted to join him. He was a photographer and he was invited to show his diving photographs at an exposition in Singapore. He invited me to come along, and of course I said yes!From Malaysia to LondonAnd after the diving exposition in Singapore, we went diving in Malaysia. So again it was a very exotic situation where we got the chance to get to know each other a bit more.So then when we came back, I went back home basically to return for good.It was all very nice at the time, but very quick. I don't know what to call it... a story, an adventure. So then I found myself in London, cold, rainy London, and I started the second chapter of my life in the UK, in London.Cultural gapsAnd like in all stories, in all relationships, there are many factors that come into it, that create or direct the story in a certain way. In our case I think there were many gaps. Not just the language. I studied as an interpreter so my English was pretty good, but there was still a cultural gap.Me: Yup, I can relate to that.Gabriella: You might speak the same language, but you speak two different languages. You come from different backgrounds and different countries.Me: Yup, I had that with two husbands, one French one and one Mexican one. I spoke both languages and there's still a cultural gap.Gabrielle: Yes but it's funny though, unless you are in that situation, it's difficult to imagine. Your imagination is never like reality.Me: Of course. And was it hard for you to settle in the UK? In London?Gabriella: Well, it was in a way. But you see, when you're in love, you make everything do because you want it to work. Yes, the weather was...British. Unpredictable, and very variable so it changes from one moment to the next. But mainly it's not continental so it means you don't have the four seasons. You tend to have sort of two seasons really, and that was hard.Paradise for some, hell for othersBut what I want to say is that I was in a paradise on earth. The Maldives is definitely considered one of those places on earth that's perfect for honeymoons, this type of thing. I was working there, of course I wasn't on holiday there. But it was really hard to work there, and it felt to me like hell on earth, funnily enough. Such a paradox. Me: Really!Gabriella: Basically from paradise on earth which for me was feeling like hell, anyway, I fell on 'not paradise on earth' – weatherwise in the UK. But I was very happy because of course I was in this relationship that at the time I loved and cherished so much. That was for me a big lesson that I would never forget – that really, happiness is where your heart is.But of course I have to say that I've been here in the UK for nineteen years and I can say that yes, after a while, the weather gets at you!From holidays to power gamesMe: Yeah of course. But then the relationship started to change, right? Because at first you said it was...Gabrielle: Yes, like all relationships in the beginning it was very easygoing and nice and so forth. But it became more like a power game and I wasn't aware of it. I should have been aware because there were signs from the very beginning, but you know, sometimes we are blind to the signs. We can't hear it even if we can hear physically.Me: I mean when you say power games, can you think of an example?Gabriella: Yes, there was a gap of eleven years between the two of us and I'm a very easygoing type of personality and I don't really want to control anybody. But on the other side there was a person who was obviously much older than me with possibly much more life experience than me.And I am guessing here because the bottom line is that we never really know what happens in another person unless that person tells us, right? But I'm guessing with hindsight that inside there was a desire to create this relationship, he possibly really enjoyed it, wanted it and so forth. He just wanted it to work, but his character was very domineering, he was very controlling.Even if I'm as I said a very easygoing type of person I think, very flexible... I had just left my country, I had just moved here, I started from scratch. That didn't bother me, because I quite like that type of thing.I was the one adjusting to everything basically, but I couldn't adjust to being controlled.Why some people manipulate othersAnd you don't see it in the beginning because you think the other person is like you. You think they just want to love you, things like that. Maybe I was naïve but I'm sure I belong to a big club.Me: I mean, did he just like not let you go where you wanted, or have the friends that you wanted? Or try to tell you how to be?Gabriella: No, it took me a long time to realize it because...because you see, with people who are manipulative by nature... My theory is that they've been wounded or hurt, and so it's their survival instinct to try to manipulate their surroundings so that they can survive. It's very basic.Me: Yeah, that's what I think too.Gabriella: This is my theory, but anyway I think it was definitely applicable to his case.I don't know to this day what his wound was, but he definitely wanted me to be in a certain way, doing certain things. He wasn't so obvious. Otherwise I would have realized this earlier on. He was always camouflaging to this 'good doing', these good deeds that were in my interest and all the rest. Maybe according to him they were in my good interests, but not in mine.If you crush somebody character-wise and you want to control the person, you are actually also discarding all the nice characteristics, all the nice bits of the person. You can't just have a puppet in your hands. Well you can, in certain situations it works. There are certain men and women who are kind of happy in that kind of relationship, but it didn't work for me.Tantrums...as an adult?Me: Was there one event...What happened to make you think “This is enough, I have to leave”. Was it one event in particular?Gabriella: Yes, I was just arriving there. One thing that for me really killed the relationship and the story, and I'm happy to share it because there might be other women in similar situations.He was a very narcissistic type of person, and those people have to crush who is next to them because otherwise they don't feel good enough. One way to have his way was to throw tantrums. Really. Like children do.But you know, if you are a mother and you have a child doing that, you know how to deal with it because it's part of the growing up process.But when you are an adult and you have your partner doing that... Like it happened in the middle of the jungle, he wanted to go back to London and leave me there...Me: Ohhh!Gabriella: Stuff like that. It happened more than once.Maybe the first time you put up with it, you think 'Hmm, strange'. And then the second time you might start thinking, 'What have I done?' Because that's what happens to women, we tend to first check with ourselves. We always are prone to think that we've done something wrong ourselves.Me: Yes, of course.Gabriella: So that's what happened with me. When this was happening, I thought 'I've done something inconsiderate', or 'I'm bad'... I was always feeling guilty for something.Scary stuffMe: Was it scary as well? Because if I imagine an adult, you know, a man, my partner having a tantrum...that would just freak me out.Gabriella: Well yes it was! I can tell you! In certain situations it was, because, you know, like... We were returning to Indonesia, we were on this tour, there were just the two of us with a local guide. I can't remember now exactly what happened. He really literally wanted to go back to London and just leave me there, out of the blue. What do you do with something like that?Of course now thinking about it, I think if I would find myself in a situation like that or similar, I would just deal with it very easily because I've been through it.Me: That's what I was gonna say.Gabriella: If you haven't been there, in a similar situation, you don't know what to do. It's natural that you don't know what to do.What you can do if you're in an abusive relationshipMe: That's what I was going to ask actually, because there might be people that are in that kind of situation now. What would you tell them?Gabriella: Well what I would say is that to realize that you're in an abusive relationship is very difficult. And I'll tell you why. It doesn't necessarily have to be physical abuse, because a moral or emotional abuse is just as difficult. Or even worse maybe, because if somebody beats you up, the blows, the bruises on your skin might go, but the emotions, they stay. And then you have to heal them. It might take the rest of your life to do that.In a way, I wasn't in a physical abusive relationship, but it definitely wasn't a peer relationship. And I can say this because I'm now happily in a very nice relationship and I can see how different it is. I'm not...I'm also very aware that I don't want to make it worse than it was.But my advice would be for a woman to...instead of keeping silent, try to find help, professional help. Because if you just talk to your friends or colleagues or whatever, relatives, they will have their own unconscious agenda. Meaning that they will try to help in their own way, but it won't be maybe the best way for you.But with a therapist or somebody, you start maybe having help that shows you where you are and what's happening. They will play back to you what's going on. That's definitely something that I regretted not doing immediately. I waited because I was in denial and this is typical of women. You think that it cannot happen to you, but it does.The moment of no returnMe: But then once you... I know that you did decide at one point to go through with the divorce.Gabriella: Yes, you asked me what was the moment of no return. The moment of no return was just another tantrum, but this time it was very low key in a way compared to others that had been very magnificently planned, right? It wasn't in an exotic location, it was just in a shop. It was a small shop and in front of the sales attendant he just threw this tantrum and just treated me... like shit, basically. And it just reached a point where I just thought 'This is enough'.I had already matured within the years and realized in my body, really physically, that I was dying.Me: How long were you together?Gabriella: Well not long because it was... I moved to the UK in 1998 and we got married 3 years later, and then the point of no return happened in 2005. So I mean long enough to be damaged.Me: Yes, that's long enough, exactly.Gabriella: But not that long. And I'm saying this because I know that there are women who endure abusive relationships for decades. Finding excuses for the children if there are children involved, is actually the worst way to teach your children for the future because they will remember, they will absorb that.What we unconsciously create...Funnily enough, I have to say, and I'm sharing this as well with no pride, well, hiding my pride simply because I know that it can be useful for others. My parents...I had the example at home of my parents who had a similar relationship.And so what I had done, what happened to me or basically what I had done myself was to put myself in the same type of relationship. Because we do that unconsciously because we want to recover or resolve it. Our mind is always looking for a solution for everything that happened to us. It's so classical, like a psychology manual, right? But when it happens to you it's really...it's different, it hurts. But basically that's what happened.My father had a very old-fashioned type of relationship with my mother. Like what happened in the last century. And so the father would decide everything and the mother would say yes to everything.Even though I was born in the twentieth century, very highly educated, spoke four languages, traveled and all the rest of it, you might think 'You're sorted, girl! You're a girl of the world!'And yes, maybe from the outside. But inside, that wasn't the story and so I ended up in an abusive relationship. Having said that, I learned a lot and even if it was painful, I have to say that I couldn't have become the woman that I am today if that hadn't happened to me. It was a shortcut to really wake up.But for people out there, either men or women, because I know that it can happen to men as well. It doesn't have to necessarily be just the woman being in an abusive relationship being abused by a man, it can happen both ways.The very best thing to do for yourselfThe best thing is to actually listen to what you feel in your body because the body always tells us.But we are maybe conditioned by our upbringing. Or we are as I was saying deaf and blind and we don't want to see it, we don't want to hear it, we ignore the signs. The first step is pay attention to what your body is saying to you. And second, reach out because there are many organizations in the, let's call it the civilized so to speak world. It doesn't have to cost necessarily.The very fact of realizing 'there's something here not right, I want to go and see if I can find some help' is the first step to come out of it. And it helps you psychologically to become aware of what's going on.Me: Yes of course.Gabriella: It's been a long journey!Life putting you in a corner...and whyMe: But then you started to come through the other side, right? I mean, even though...you were made redundant from work? Is that right?Gabriella: Yes, what happened for me is that it was all together.I mean, the marriage wasn't happy already and had been that way for years. But what made it all kind of collapse I think was also the fact that I was made redundant at work, and he was self-employed so he was working from home. So obviously having me around didn't help and I was very aware that being at home it would have been hell, but that was what life served me.Life is very clever, always finding a way to put you in the corner so you then have to do something about it.So I was made redundant and I kind of also lost my social background workwise because that was a very big part of my life. Second the relationship at work was a nightmare and that had to be fixed. From the lowest point, to coming back upWhen the point of no return happened and I realized 'this is it, this is enough'...Because after being in the shop with this tantrum, having things thrown at me and whatever, we went into a supermarket and it went on. So I found myself basically like in film scenes that you see, you know? The film character walking and weeping and crying all over the supermarket, feeling like worse than that you can't go. And I was dying inside. But that was the point of no return where I felt 'Hang on a minute. This is enough! As difficult as it might be to break up and face a life that you don't know what it will be, with a big question mark, is still better than having to put up with the same situation every day that is obviously not going to change'.Me: So then what did you do to change things?Gabriella: Well life served me again, because basically who started the divorce process? Him.Me: Him?Gabriella: Yes, he started the divorce process because it was part of his way of being. He wanted to scare me because he thought that that would be a big scare and I would come back home. And you would do that...I mean, it's funny to say, but that would work with a little girl, not with an adult. And deep inside maybe there were parts of me that hadn't grown up enough, but I wasn't a little girl anymore. I was a woman of over forty years.Grabbing an opportunity, even if it takes yearsSo I realized that that was my chance. I had to grab it to be free again. Meaning, well being free at the time just meant to start feeling better. Not feeling anguished by living with a person who wouldn't respect me. You never knew when he would burst out, but the only certainty was you knew he would burst out at any moment.And I know that there are many people like that. They have that kind of character and some get into violence, they become more violent than others, whatever. But we are not here to make a hit parade of who was the worst and who was the best, you know?Me: No, of course, yeah.Gabriella: It's about making people aware that it can happen and there's no shame in that. We all have parts of ourselves that need to be healed so the best thing is really when we witness stuff like that that's going on, and it's obvious, it's apparent, you can't deny it, then it's time to take action.So I said yes to the divorce, he didn't expect that!That was the start of a long struggle because I was hoping that because he started it, he would want it. I was hoping it would be easy and we would free each other up and that would be it. But he didn't want that.Me: It took a long time, right? I think you said it took two years, is that right?Gabriella: Yes, it took two years.Me: Even without children, which I think is just crazy. That's a really long time.Gabriella: Yes, maybe things have changed now, I don't know. But when you have a party that doesn't want it to happen, they put everything out to put obstacles.Nothing to cling to, and yet...Me: But you had a career change at the same time, right? What did you do before and then what did you wind up doing afterwards?Gabrielle: Well what happened was I was working in the tourism industry and I was made redundant. And I could feel inside me that I needed to change because it wasn't satisfying me anymore.For me that was very scary because it wasn't just to lose the relationship and maybe the stability or the safety, so to speak, of a marriage and a relationship. It was also the fact that I didn't have any friends anymore because all of my friends were work-related or socially related with my husband.So I found myself really alone. And London being a big place... At the same time I couldn't really cling to my work. Because in a situation like that, it's useful to at least have something that you can cling to. It could be different things, it doesn't matter, but at least to have something that stays there and represents stability because otherwise it can be quite psychologically challenging.But I didn't have that. I didn't have any social stability, financial stability, career stability of any sort. So I had to face that as well. And I did some temporary work, still in the temporary industry, and then I went away traveling for a month.That was...even if I was still living separated under the same roof, I went backpacking, travelling through Vietnam. And that really helped me, because I'm a free spirit. That really helped me to rediscover myself as a being, a human being. Even if it was scary – you had to consider that I wasn't in the best position emotionally, but I did it, it really helped me.The learning journey begins...and leads to AntarcticaAt the same time I came across NLP, neurolinguistic programming. I trained in that, and that really helped me to recover. I've always been interested in personal development, the power of the mind, and to explore that for me was fundamental. To really rebuild myself psychologically and emotionally, but also it helped me to find a direction in my life.I did different courses, different things. Because after I divorced, I decided to give myself a bit of time and freedom to be able to look around instead of putting myself into another box immediately. So I started doing different trainings, and I eventually ended up in Antarctica!When in doubt, test yourselfMe: I was gonna ask, how did you get to Antarctica, and what was that like?Gabriella: Well, what happened was, it was funny.Two days, or three days after my second court hearing that really marked the end of my divorce, I came across this opportunity to join this chap. He was an Australian explorer really, an adventurer, a coach, called Peter Blair.He had been himself to the North and to the South Pole. So a very adventurous type of person. And after having been to Antarctica, he was actually starting to take people there as a way to explore yourself, to face your limiting beliefs.Having had the training in neurolinguistic programming which is all about the power of the mind... Having walked on fire...Me: Yup! I did that too!Gabriella: So you know that for me was really interesting. I couldn't resist it, because I wanted to test myself. As if I hadn't done it already... But it was very appealing and besides I always liked traveling. I had never considered Antarctica simply because it's too cold for me.But the idea of joining a group of people to go there to face your own beliefs and limitations and fears was for me irresistible!I had a bit of money that I managed to get out of the settlement for the divorce and so I thought 'Before I go into my mind again and become normal and rational again, let's do this because I know this will be good for me'. So nine months later I ended up in Antarctica.And another trauma...Me: Wow! And then what made you decide...Because you've written a book about your journey, right? Can you tell us about that?Gabriella: Well I wasn't planning to write a book. I was actually planning to produce a documentary about it. But I didn't have the funds to be able to get with me a crew or anything like that, forget it, so I just went with a camera myself and I started filming, not having done it before.But unfortunately something very unpredictable happened during the trip and so what happened was I lost my gear.Me: You lost your gear?Gabriella: Yes, my photographic gear.Me: Oh! Wow!Gabriella: So for me it was really going to hell because I had waited for that trip. For me the best part of it was to be able to go there and witness nature. For me it's a big thing. And you can't go more wild and natural than Antarctica. So I was expecting that, you know I was really preparing for this trip so much, I was really looking forward to taking pictures and filming and the rest. But something that I wasn't planning obviously... Again, life serves you right. I lost my gear!Benefits of lossSo what happened was I went through this trauma again and because it was a trauma for me. When I came back I was still trying to see if I could produce something with the little footage I had and I couldn't find a way, basically. That happened in 2008 and in 2011 I eventually surrendered to the reality of it.And I had this idea, I realized 'OK, it seems that I can't do anything with this experience'. I really wanted to share this experience, right? Because I learn so much from other people's stories and I feel very thankful for the person I've become because other people went to the trouble and the bother to put their story out there.And so this nagged at me constantly and I had this voice inside me that was pushing me to keep closing. But it seemed that all the doors were closed and I didn't know what to do.Eventually three years later I realized that I could write a book. And I thought 'Well at least if I write a book I have my experience there that anybody can read'. And these days technology allows us to be found more easily than in the past.So that's what I did. I went away and in two weeks I wrote my book.Me: Wow! That's fantastic! In two weeks!Gabriella: Yes, and after three years, that happened. But that's me, I found it easy to write. Obviously I have to say for honesty that those three years after the expedition I must have digested the thing.Writing a book and throwing pride to the windMe: Yes, because you put a lot of life lessons in your book as well, right?Gabriella: Yes, the story of the book is the trip on the ship with this group of people. But it's not a book that talks about the beauty of Antarctica. Of course it does because I put pictures in it as much as I could because I think it's worth it. Although it's an inner journey. It's what happened to me internally. I wrote it as raw as it was, I wrote all those things that nobody wants to admit because we think, 'if the world finds out that I do that, that I think that, oh my God it will be the end of it!' Because we all have that side of us that wants to... We're shy, or we're ashamed of some parts of ourselves that we don't want to show.I thought it was worthwhile to do it because if we do it, we allow others to realize how we are all the same. And how vulnerable we are. And how strong we can be at the same time. So yeah, I chuck away my pride and I chuck away my ego and I just wrote it as it was.Some potent teachings that Gabriella shares with others nowMe: So now I mean I know you do some really interesting things to help other people. You mentioned that you help women gain confidence, authority and fulfilment in life by knowing their body, doing all kinds of other things, helping them work with their female cycle... So if people want to know more about that, where's the best place for them to find you? I mean I'll put it in the shownotes, but...Gabriella: Well that's another whole story. I came across a lady called Alexandra Pope who talks about menstrual cycle awareness and that was for me life-changing. And so among the many things that I've done and investigated, that was for me as a woman what really made the biggest impact on my life.So therefore I realized that I wanted to spread the message. Because if I'd been instructed, educated by my mother or any other elder woman when I was young and I'd been raised with that awareness, I would have possibly not entered into an abusive relationship. I could have avoided a very painful and expensive divorce and other things. So I realized the potency of that teaching.Where to find GabriellaMe: So for people who want to find out more about that, that's on your website, right?Gabriella: Yes, flyinginspiration.com They can find out more about myself, what I do...Me: And your book as well, right?Gabriella: Yes, they can find the book but they can find lots of information which is free. There are many interviews, articles... It's all there for you.Me: Super! Well thank you so much! Gabriella thank you SO much for your story. I really enjoyed it and I think, you know, I know that it's been quite a journey for you. So I just wanted to thank you for coming on and sharing it with such honesty and beauty!Gabriella: Thank you Barbara, for the possibility to share the message. Hopefully it will help somebody out there today, tomorrow and for the years to come!What to add to food (and other places) when it's cold outsideSo, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best ingredients you can add to your food when it's cold outside. And as I mentioned, you don't have to just use it for food. You can sprinkle this ingredient inside your socks to help keep you warm! It's also really tasty, and you only need a tiny bit.Have you got an idea what it could be? It is...cayenne pepper!Benefits of cayenne pepperCayenne and other hot spices are great to add to your food when it's cold out, because they literally trick your body into thinking that the food is hotter than it actually is. Not that you need to eat cold food of course, you can heat up soups and things, but cayenne gives your food an extra kick of heat.And yes, you can add it to your socks. On the inside though, otherwise you won't feel it and you'll just be heating your shoes. And do make sure that you haven't got any cuts or open wounds when you do that. You just need a small amount, like a quarter teaspoon.So why does this work? And what other benefits does cayenne pepper have? Well, cayenne contains a substance called capsaicin which increases the circulation in your fingers and toes.Cayenne pepper is also used internally to help with digestion, detoxification, relieving toothaches, boosting your metabolism and helping reduce inflammation.Another curious thing about cayenne pepperAnother curious thing about cayenne pepper, and I think this is quite cool, it's contrary to what we might think. It actually can help in the prevention and healing of ulcers. This is because it inhibits the secretion of acid and stimulates production of alkaline and mucous secretions.Now that might sound kind of gross, but if you've got an ulcer, you might want to take a look at the research article that I'll link to in the show notes to draw your own conclusions.Some people find that applying cayenne pepper directly to the skin can also help with pain from arthritis and headaches, including migraines. Its effects are still being studied, but I would definitely encourage you to try it out for yourself if you think it might help you.If it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything. But if it does work, wow, right? You'll have yourself the cheapest and healthiest medicine ever, and way better for you than aspirin, right?How you eat cayenne pepperWhich brings me to how you eat cayenne pepper, which is very easy.Just add a pinch to soups, curries and other savory dishes. Simple!And if you'd like some ideas for savory dishes, I'll link to my 5-minute recipe ebooks in the shownotes.Have you got a story to share?So I hope you've enjoyed Gabriella's story today as well as our food tips. And if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have enhanced or even saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Email me at barbara@rockingrawchef.comGot a question, or a comment?If you enjoy my stories and want to hear more, join us and subscribe! I share one true story a week. And if you've got any questions, just pop them in the comments! And if you're listening on iTunes, do give me a review, that would be awesome.I hope you have an amazing day, thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCES5-minute recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article featuring fun tips for your feet, including cayenne pepper: https://feet.thefuntimesguide.com/pepper_for_cold_feet/Article on benefits of cayenne pepper: https://draxe.com/cayenne-pepper-benefits/Study on capsaicin and gastric ulcers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16621751Gabriella's bio:Gabriella Guglielminotti Trivel is an author, speaker, visionary and female cycle consultant who helps women gain confidence, authority and fulfilment in life by knowing better their body. She helps women to make their female cycle their best friend, couples improve their relationship, find a more satisfying way to communicate and have better intimacy.Gabriella's website: http://www.flyinginspiration.co.uk/Her book: Antarctic Odyssey, A New Beginning

Alexandra Merisoiu shares her story of how she went from guzzling Coke and eating at all hours to lean, fit and healthy. Plus a tiny food that you'd never guess has more calcium than dairy, and a food for sport that keeps you going all day long!The food that I'll share with you is not only an amazing source of protein, energy and healthy fats, but one tiny ounce contains 18% of the recommended daily allowance for calcium. So it's also an amazing bone food for all you people who don't eat dairy and might be worried about where you're getting your calcium. And I bet you don't know what it is! Or maybe you do...you'll find out in a bit! Our guest, Alexandra MerisoiuI am very excited to be joined here today by Alexandra Merisoiu, also known as The Body Engineer.Alexandra specialises in working with runners, beginners and advanced, who want to run faster and further, with less effort and fewer injuries. She also has a 3rd Dan Black Belt in Karate Shotokan, and she is a Martial Arts British National Champion, with a host of national and international awards in the sport, including World Cup Champion. And if that weren't enough, in between helping others with their running, Alexandra still competes at an international level!Alexandra's storySo let's get to the story. Alexandra welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today!Alexandra: Thank you very much for the invitation. And thank you for the introduction as well.Me: Oh well you're welcome! I just find it astounding, everything that you manage to do. And I don't know how you do it, but I'm sure you'll share a bit about that in a moment.I mean, I know when we talked about you coming on the podcast, you mentioned that there was a time when you were drinking like 2 liters of coke a day and definitely with a very different level of health and fitness compared to what you have today.And I would really love for you to tell everybody how you changed your relationship with food, because there are a lot of things that you've overcome that a lot of people still struggle with, you know?Alexandra: Yeah, well that's true. 2 liters of Coca-Cola, 2 liters of Sprite, I kind of changed from one to the other. Me: Variety, yeah...Training hard in RomaniaAlexandra: I mean, back then in my family I didn't have the education that I have today. When McDonald's came to my country, I was there a few times a week. But we didn't really know what and how and why...Me: Oh sorry, so can you remind people where you grew up, then?Alexandra: Oh yes, in Romania. In Eastern Europe.So I was practising martial arts 6 days a week, sometimes 12 sessions a week. Twice a day was in school holidays.Me: Wow!Alexandra: A holiday with my family didn't really exist because I was always training. And yeah, I was just eating, burning calories, eating, burning calories...There was no way I could have put on weight.But fast forward to today, it's not actually about being able to burn calories. It's about what's going on inside your body, it's all about calories.Alexandra's first turning pointMe: I know you had a turning point at one stage, right? Because you said you had Coke and a sandwich, and...what led you to change?Alexandra: Oh yes, I remember it. I was actually a little bit scared. I was twelve, thirteen years old, and I was eating a sandwich really quick. And I was drinking Coke while eating a sandwich, right?Me: As many people do, right?Alexandra: Yes, and two minutes into eating, I just threw it up. And I think from what I remember, that was the turning point. At that point I just stopped drinking Coca-Cola.Me: Yes because you weren't feeling sick, right? It wasn't like you had an illness and threw up, it was actually the...Alexandra: No, no, I actually think I was getting ready to go to my karate training. I actually went!Me: (laughs) That doesn't surprise me!Alexandra: (laughs) Yes, my training is a bit like if I'm not in the hospital...Me: Were you competing at that time too?Alexandra: Yes, yes, I think my first competition was when I was ten years old, or nine. It was an in-house competition, so small. But yeah, I was competing, and then at fourteen I received my first black belt.A definite U-turnMe: Wow! And what were you thinking when, I mean, you've eaten the sandwich, you've drunk the Coca-Cola, you've thrown it up. I mean, what thoughts were in your head when you were like 'I've had enough, I can't eat this way any more'?Alexandra: Oh it's been such a long time, I don't remember. But the shock of throwing up and of feeling sick...I think it was a U-turn, basically. I don't think I thought about it too much. I don't remember thinking 'Oh this isn't too good for my health'.Me: Yeah, a twelve-year-old probably wouldn't think like that, right?Alexandra: Yes, probably I thought 'This made me throw up so I'm not gonna have it anymore'.From training to clubbingMe: Cause you were quite heavier at one point, right? You said that you were like ten kilos heavier at one stage, so how did that happen?Alexandra: Yeah, so when I was eighteen I stopped karate. I did the other martial arts, but I stopped karate because I started travelling. And I kind of...when you are an athlete, you don't go out much. You don't have a lot of friends.So I made some friends and then we started going clubbing and dancing and drinking and all the other stuff. I saw the other side of life and karate all of a sudden didn't seem so fascinating anymore, you know?I trained less, but I was eating the same. And when you're an athlete and you train 6 times a week, maybe 12 times a week, and you eat a certain quality of food and a certain quantity of food, you're balanced. You don't put on weight.Piling on the poundsBut when you stop that, when you take your training to 3 days a week, and you eat the same, you start putting on weight. And you put on weight fast. So that's what happened. I stopped karate and I went to visit my father who was living in France. With my friend. And basically what we were doing was we were eating McDonald's and other fast food at midnight, and you know, watching movies...Me: Whoa! So like the worst time ever to eat the worst kind of food ever!Alexandra: Exactly! So I think I was there for 2 months during the summer holidays. And when I came back I was 10 kilograms heavier and my mom was like, 'What happened to you!'Me: Ohhh!Alexandra: Of course, going from 49 kilos to 60 kilos doesn't seem like such a big thing. But for me it was a huge contrast.Me: Yeah, because you're not like super tall, right?Alexandra: Yeah, exactly. And as an athlete I was skinny, as skinny as...Me: Skinny as a rail, right?Alexandra: Right! So for me that was a bit of a psychological downfall.Me: Yeah, of course.Weightloss: a fast-moving trainAlexandra: No-one was looking at me in any other way, but it was how I saw myself. I mean, I was used to being lean, being fast and strong. And all of a sudden – well not all of a sudden, over a few months – that changed.Me: But it creeps up on you as well, right? I mean, that's the difficult bit. You said you put it on fast, but I imagine it wasn't like all of a sudden you woke up and the 10 kilos were there, right?Alexandra: No, it wasn't. It was a few months. I don't remember exactly because it was a while ago, but probably when I was in France I put a few kilograms on and then...I see weightloss like a fast moving train. It gains momentum. You put on a little bit of weight and then faster and faster until...Me: Out of control!Alexandra: Yeah, and with weightloss the same, but you have to stop the train and then go back and build the momentum. So that's a weightloss lesson, for example.Me: Yeah, yeah.Alexandra's second turning point: in the poolAlexandra: So one turning point was with Coca-Cola, and the second turning point was with the fast foods when I gained weight and I just didn't feel good about myself anymore.Me: So then you made a massive commitment at that point. What did you say to yourself? Were you just like 'This ends here, I have to just change everything'?Alexandra: Well I actually remember – I don't know if this is the first, but I do remember – I went swimming. There's a 50-meter Olympic swimming pool that I learned to swim in. And I was struggling to do 3 or 4 lengths!Me: Wow!Alexandra: In the past I could do 15, 20...I could just do it! So my fitness level was just...And that was the turning point. That scared me and I thought 'I need to get my fitness back'. And I think that was in 2007 when I became a runner.Motivation for changeMe: Did you start both at the same time then?Alexandra: Yeah, I think from what I remember that I used running to lose the weight. I was also going to the United States, it was the first time that summer and I was going with a working travel program on the shore of the Atlantic. At the beach. So that kind of motivated me more, because my swimming suits weren't fitting me anymore!Me: Oh no!Alexandra: My clothes weren't fitting anymore! Now I do have to say this, because it's really, really important. The people you surround yourself with.I had some very good friends. Very good friends, I learned a lot from them. However from a health and fitness point of view, they weren't the best people to be around me. So in the personal development world, you know, they say you're the average of the 5 people you surround yourself with.And looking back, I didn't know about personal development then. I know now, but looking back, I was drinking a lot. And I could take the spirits. I wouldn't have a hangover. It was so easy for me, that I could just drink.Me: (laughs) I can't do that!Alexandra: (laughs) Well, I can't do that either, it's been 4 or 5 years since I've had a sip of alcohol, so...yeah. The swimming pool, that's what turned me around and made me start running and made the commitment to give up the fast foods.And my mom had a very important role in this. She understood that in order for me to lose the weight and get back to normal, I needed to make some drastic but gradual changes.The plan of attackMe: So what were those changes? Because I know you said you cut out a lot of foods, right?Alexandra: Yeah. So first of all, the drinks. My mom always said, 'Don't drink Pepsi and Coca-Cola and all this stuff. These are the first things to cut out.' So we started with that.And I say 'we' because my mom was there all the time. She always said, 'Have one day a week where you can eat whatever you want. Don't deprive your body because then you will crave it'.And she's right again, right? (laughs) Moms just know!So one day a week I would have, I don't know, whatever I wanted. But it's important to say that I made these decisions. My mom supported and advised. She's not a nutritionist but she has a very good intuition when it comes to nutrition and weightloss.The next foods to go were...The second thing I cut out was pretty much anything that had sugar. So any chocolates, ice creams, anything that tasted sweet.And then we started taking out the potatoes, oh and bread. Bread was actually together with the drinks. The drinks and the bread were like the first things we started with.Me: But when you started, you did it gradually, right? First you cut out the bread and the drinks for a little while, but you were still eating ice cream and other sweet things?Easy does itAlexandra: Yeah. But I wasn't replacing. I was still eating the same amount. So it wasn't like, 'Oh, I'm not gonna drink Pepsi anymore but I'm gonna eat 3 more ice creams!' (laughs) I wasn't eating ice cream every day, I was eating ice cream once or twice a week maybe.Me: But I think that's a really interesting point though. That you did it really gradually. Because most of us are like, 'Right! No more ice cream, no more bread, I'm gonna eat super healthy every day'. And then like 3 days later we just fall down, right? Whereas you did it really gradually, right?So for example, just to give people an idea of the timeline, you know? When you said the drinks and the bread, do you remember how long you went before you decided to cut out the next thing? Was it really like...was there a system behind it? Or did you just go with what you felt?How you can know when you're ready to cut out a foodAlexandra: At that point I didn't know about systems. I just went with what felt comfortable. So if I was still thinking about having Sprite or another fizzy drink, then it meant that I'm not ready for taking out the next food or foods.Me: Oh, that makes sense! Oh!Alexandra: Yeah. So once my craving for something or the thought of having something disappeared...Now for example if I think of a sandwich, no matter how good the sandwich looks, I don't really want it, right?So I guess we went with how I felt. And I think to give people an idea, I probably would go 4 to 6 weeks of taking out one group of foods. Or one food, not necessarily one group of foods.Me: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because they say it takes at least 30 days if not longer to establish a new habit, right?Here's how to test yourselfThat's really cool, I just want to really emphasize that point, because it would never have occurred to me to cut out one thing and then wait until the cravings for that one thing disappeared before cutting out the next thing! I think that is amazing! I've never heard that before, actually.Alexandra: Well, it's just going with what you feel. It's a test. If you think about having bread, how do you feel? Do you really want it? You know, if you have a slice of bread in front of you, are you gonna take it? Or can you just ignore it?So I think that's when the change happens. When you can go to the next phase.Change for lifeMe: Yeah! Plus the other thing that I love about that is...that's like lifetime change, right? That's not the kind of thing where you fall down again after a year. I mean you hear about people who deprive themselves for months and months and then they just...they manage to go past the 30 days and yet they still fall down because they haven't passed the test yet!Alexandra: Exactly! And no matter, it can be 30 days, it can be...you can do the same habit for 2, 3, 6 months and then go back to it. Seriously. Nothing is guaranteed.Me: Yeah, of course.Alexandra: That's why I don't go with 30 days or 44 or 60...Me: Well, we're all different as well, right? One food isn't going to have the same effect on everybody, right?Alexandra: Exactly, yeah.How to refuse politely...Me: Wow, that's really cool. Oh and I wanted to ask you, because you said that in those first 3 to 6 months, that was the worst, right? And that sometimes you had people offering you other foods, foods that you don't eat and stuff. So how did you manage to a) resist the temptation and b) manage to say no in a nice way? (laughs)Alexandra: (laughs) Yeah, well I don't know how to say no in a nice way actually! (laughs) I say “No thank you” and that's it!Me: (laughs) Oh! Ok! The truth comes out... (laughs)Alexandra: Right, well it's about educating the people around me. It's about how you educate the people around you, or reeducate.So they know I like this kind of cheese, it's like a kind of cottage cheese, a type of cottage cheese pie that we make in the east. And I love it, you know? I always loved it. So all of my family, when you go for Easter, they always have it for me. And it has the right amount of cheese in it... (laughs)And you know, in the first 6 months it was difficult because I was trying to cut out all these things. But there you have it in front of you on the table! So...Me: And made by people for you, right? So the guilt thing could come in if you let it, right?Alexandra: Exactly!What to say to friends and familySo there were 2 ways, well a few ways, actually, out of this situation that people can use.First of all, you say “Thank you, but I can't eat anymore”. You know, after your meal, you are full. “Just leave it for later”, right?Sometimes it's good to tell people, “I don't eat this anymore, but I'll just have a small piece”. And you just have a small piece! Not a whole slice, you know?And here's what you tell yourselfBut it's good to voice it. What you tell yourself, that's what you're going to believe. So if you tell yourself, “I can't eat this” or “I can't have this” or “I'm not allowed this”, it's like an interdiction. You tell your brain you can't have it and it wants more.Me: And you want it, yeah.Alexandra: So what I did – unknowingly I did it – I said, “ I don't have this”. I mean, it's my choice not to have this any more. And in my head I always said that, it's my choice to have this or to not have this.Alexandra: And then, you know, people insist, because, you know, that's how family is...Me: Yup!Get a family member to support youAlexandra: And they're right...I love them all. But I have to say that after a few times of insisting, I would start to get a bit bothered or annoyed by it, and that's when they would leave me alone. (laughs)But also my mom was a big supporter, to be honest. Because she would say “No, no, she doesn't eat that”. And when my mom would say it, then everyone would just let me be.Me: Oh, that's really nice!Alexandra: So it's very important if you can have someone in your family to support you and to, you know, be on your side for the first year or so. That makes a huge difference.Make the right choice, every single dayAnd if not, always remember that your mind is the most powerful. So you make the choice, every single day.Me: I love that. I'm glad you said that again because I love that idea of making the right choice every single day and remembering that it's always a choice. Because it's kind of like reminding yourself how powerful you are over your life, right?Alexandra: Absolutely!Me: Yeah, that's really cool!Alexandra: Many times – even today – when I have pizza...Well, I can have pizza maybe 3 times a year even though it's one of my favorite foods. I always say I want pizza but I never get it.How to take charge of your mindEven if I have a pastry or an ice cream, I always tell myself, “I choose to have this. I don't need it, and I don't crave it, but I choose to have it today”. And if I do crave that stuff, I don't have it in that moment.This is basically one of the food discipline lessons. It's like disciplining my mind to say that if it craves something, it doesn't mean it's gonna have it. So there's no point in craving it. It's when I decide.Me: Oh!Alexandra: There's this book, The Chimp Paradox. You know it.Me: Yeah.Alexandra: It's talking with your chimp, telling it “You're gonna have this when I tell you, not when you want!”Me: Exactly, yeah!Alexandra: So that's one of the food discipline lessons: don't have them when you crave them.Cravings: what they really mean...Me: Yeah! That's really good! And also because some people think that...I think it can be an excuse sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes...especially if it's something unhealthy. Some people think, 'Oh well, I have this craving because I'm lacking in iron' or some other nutrient. I mean, I don't know what your take is on that?My take is that if it's a healthy food you're craving, yeah then it's probably true. But if it's an unhealthy one...Alexandra: Yeah, absolutely. That's right. If it's unhealthy...If you lack iron, get foods that have iron. Or, I don't know, vitamin E. Get foods that have that. Don't lie to yourself. Don't say, 'I want this pastry' or whatever it is. Or chips, or ice cream, or whatever, because you crave the healthy stuff that's in the chips.If you crave salt, that means maybe you've trained and you haven't replaced your salts. But you can do that without eating chips.Me: Yeah, exactly, yeah. (laughs)Take your time with the processOh I remember what I wanted to ask you. When I read your story on your website, I remember you were saying that it was really important to you to take your time with the whole process. I think you said the whole process took...How long did it take? Like 1 to 2 years or something?Alexandra: Yes, it took about 2 years to get to a stable point, so I took the 10 kilograms off. Then I would know that I could eat other stuff and not put on weight.But I have to say that I did not want to deprive myself and restrict myself, right? So in the 2 years my weight went up and down. You know, 2 kilos down then half a kilo up, then 1 kilo down and 2 kilos up. So up and down, up and down. I wasn't looking to starve myself. I didn't want to be hungry. That was the last thing.Me: Oh yeah, yeah.Alexandra: So I would eat quite a lot of healthy stuff. I would eat quantity and quality. Both. So that's why my weight went slowly. 1 to 2 years.But at the end of 2 years I could start eating other stuff as well without worrying about it. Although if I had eaten cakes and stuff in the first 6 months to 1 year, I don't think I would have actually taken the weight down. Because I would have just fallen back into...Me: Old habits, right?Alexandra: I still have that one day a week. That's really important.Me: Yeah, that's really good! And so for the other 6 days a week, what do you eat typically now?What Alexandra eats nowAlexandra: Well, since then, this is what I eat. I would say 80% of my food is fresh vegetables. I have salads and fresh vegetables in my fridge day in and day out, 80%. Then about 10% is dairy, 10% is meat. Meat I would say...turkey and...turkey, actually. Chicken very little, and the rest is mostly when I go home and my mom says “Have this because it's healthy”. And I say “Mom even if I don't have it, I'm not going to be unhealthy”. But yeah, meat's about 10%.Me: And fruit? Do you have fruit as well?Alexandra: Yes, I have berries, but not as much as I used to. Berries I have, but not the other fruit. The reason for that is because fruit is healthy but it still has a lot of sugar. I love fruit! I can eat 2 or 3 kilos of apples a day! Without my stomach having any problems.Me: Wow! That's a lot of apples!Alexandra: Yeah, I can eat that. Or clementines...I like them. They're fresh, they're sweet, they have water so they hydrate me, so I like it. So for me fruit is...I need to be in control, because otherwise I could just eat fruit all day!Me: Oh, OK!Alexandra: Yes, it's healthy, but it's a lot of sugar.Alexandra's other food guidelinesMe: And is that something that you suggest to the people that you train? To the people that you work with? To eat very little fruit?Alexandra: Well, I advise them 5 a day, as a nutritional guideline. But obviously you can have 6 or 7, you can have less. Everyone has to know where they're at.Like I don't need that much fruit. I need vegetables, fresh vegetables. If I don't have vegetables...Red peppers, I like red peppers because they are very refreshing with all the water. I like baby plum tomatoes because again, they're slightly sweet, but they have water in them. So for me if I don't have that, at the end of the day I feel like I'm missing something.For some people, if they don't have some fruit they'll feel like that. So you kind of have to look at it and judge the what and how to have the minerals and vitamins that you need. But again I take, upon my Sensei's advice, I take a multivitamin. Because I train so much, he said 'You need to get this, because the foods nowadays are not the ones you grew up with'.You can still do it, even working full timeMe: And one thing that I read in your story where I almost fell off my chair, I mean I was like amazed. When you started running and eating really healthily and doing all the food and stuff, you were working like 8 hours a day? Is that right? In an office?Alexandra: Yeah, at some point I was working 8 hours a day, 9 to 5.Me: Oh wow!Alexandra: So in the morning I would wake up at 5. And I was a student back then, yes?Alexandra's routine (in a full time job)This was my routine, and I loved it actually. At 5 am I would wake up, by 5:15 I was out the door going for a run, running 1 hour. 1 hour meant 12 k for me. Then I'd come back and cook breakfast and cook lunch, had breakfast and took the lunch to go. I took my bike, because I could cycle about half an hour to my office.I was working in corporate banking back then. And, you know, I would stay for 8 hours there. And like anyone who works in an office, people would come with chocolates and with biscuits and all the other stuff. My answer was always, “Thank you, but I don't eat this kind of stuff”. Not like that, but “Thank you, I don't eat that”.And from time to time if it was someone's birthday, I would take a small piece of chocolate. But one – and one every once in a blue moon. Most of the time though I'd say no thank you, even if I was hungry. I would have a tea, I don't know, I would just...Me: Yeah, the reason I ask is because there are so many people who are working full time in an office, and they already struggle with just eating healthy, you know? So being able to do that, plus working in the exercise regimen as well, I mean I just find that really incredible.And evening classes on top of everything elseAlexandra: And after that actually I would cycle to university which was about 1 hour cycling. I would have my master's degree and most of my classes were in the evening by then. It was full time, but classes were in the evening. I would have my master's degree classes, and then I would be back at 7 or 8. Then I would eat something, and then go ice skating if it was winter, or go for another run if it was not winter.Me: Wow! And you were still competing at that stage, right?Alexandra: No, at that stage I wasn't competing anymore. That was...I think I was 19 or 20 years old. So I left karate behind for a while and then I started another martial art: Daitoryu, the ancestor of aikido. I don't remember when I started it, I was doing it at the weekend, 3 hours on Saturday and 3 hours on Sunday I think. It was in the time I was in corporate banking. I think that's what it was, if I remember well.Me: So then how did you...You were in corporate banking and then 1 to 2 years later, you lose all the weight, you get really trim again, and then you went back to competing, is that right?Competing againAlexandra: I went back to competing when I moved to England. So I moved to England when I was 24, I went to London when I was 25, so about 5 years ago. I joined the SKC – Shotokan Karate England. They invited me in the squad and I've been in the squad for 3 and a half years now I think. And now I wear the English flag!Me: That's really cool! That's so cool! I really love your story, I think it's just absolutely incredible. And I really want people to know where they can find you, because you help other people do the same, right?Can you say a little bit about what you're helping people with now, and what you've got going on at the moment?How Alexandra helps others nowAlexandra: Right, so now I specialize in working with runners. I'm very passionate about body mechanics. And that's because I've had a lot of injuries when I was 12 or 13. Structural injuries, damage to joints. So my interest in how the body functions was fueled by that curiosity to understand why that happens.So now I specialize in working with runners who experience these injuries. Obviously not any injury. Some injuries you need to see a physio, osteopath, chiropractor, it depends on the injury. But a lot of aches and pains come from the way we use...the way we move, particularly if you're a runner.I'm also qualified to work with lower back pain...people...so most lower back pain is due to activity - a lack of it, or the wrong type of activity and poor posture, so we work on that. And obviously the nutrition, the food discipline lessons which are part of my system.How people can get in touch with me is through themerisoutechnique.com - or easier – themtechnique.com – m like Mike. And should I say something about my event in the summer?Me: Yes! There's an event you're doing that I've got to have you talk about, because I just think it's fantastic! I looked at the description and if I didn't have events of my own going on, I would be on a plane! I want to hear all about it!Alexandra's summer eventsAlexandra: It's called Dracula's Retreat.Me: Yay!Alexandra: As the name goes, it's at Dracula's castle. Well, it's not at Dracula's castle, it's like 1 kilometer away.Me: But still! That's pretty close!Alexandra: (laughs) Some people think it's scary, but it's not scary.Me: No, it looks beautiful!Alexandra: Yes, and in summer because we will be in the mountains, you have the green, you have the forest, you have trails to go up the mountain.3 aspects to the retreatSo Dracula's Retreat has 3 components.One is touristic, so obviously you learn about the culture of Transylvania, you learn about Dracula's story, you visit the castle, then another fortress which is close by. Then it's the fitness, so we will go hiking. Now hiking is more like trekking. So we don't need axes...Me: (laughs) You're not gonna be chopping down the jungle and stuff.Alexandra: (laughs) Not on this occasion, no. And natural movement fitness. Now if we have runners, we go running. And actually we do have runners as well. And natural movement fitness, which has to do with animal movements, balance, logs: carrying, throwing, lifting logs, slack lines...So for people who don't know, that's a flat type of rope, you'd call it. But it's flat and it's slack, so for upper body exercises. Hanging off of branches...And it's all about exploring nature, leveraging nature. And understanding that to get fit and healthy and to experience the joy of training, you don't really need a gym. So people who are bored with the gym, they come to me, basically. And then there's the social part because you get to be with a group of people and you do the whole thing...The food is also a very important part of it.Me: Yup, I'll bet!Alexandra: Trying to keep it as healthy as possible, but it will be traditional. So there will be the odd pleasure for everyone.Mindfulness and meditationMe: Yup! And there's a meditation aspect to it too, right? A mindfulness component to it?Alexandra: Well, yes. Natural movement and balance exercises first of all, you know, you need that body awareness and mindfulness. But we will go through guided meditations. Guided meditations are a big part of Qigong and Tai chi which are a big part of my personal training.We will practice breathing exercises, mindfulness meditations, and some Qigong exercises. We're gonna look at what Chinese medicine says and how the meridians connect to the internal organs. I'm not a Chinese medicine expert, but I read a lot and I practice a lot, so...I'll be just sharing the knowledge.Me: Oh, that's really cool. And so where's the best place for people to find information about the retreat? I mean, I'll link to it in the shownotes, but...Alexandra: Simply draculasretreat.comMe: Oh! That's easy! Alexandra thank you so much, I mean I just love your story, I mean, it's inspiring and also I learned a lot. I can't wait to hear how Dracula's Retreat went, and I'm definitely coming on one of them!Alexandra: Yes, it's going to be every year. This is it. I have such a big vision for it, and it's going to be an amazing adventure, really. I'm taking people on an adventure, not only on a retreat.Me: No, of course. That's really cool.Well thank you so much, I'll link to everything that you've mentioned in the shownotes so that people can find it easily. I'm going to share our food tip now, and thank you so much! Awesome!Food for sportRight, so I also mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you a tiny but amazing food that is an incredible source of protein, energy, healthy fats and calcium. Not only is it a fantastic food for sport, but it's a great bone food as well. And that food is...are you ready?Chia seeds!Benefits of chia seedsChia seeds are one of the best foods ever for everybody to eat in my opinion. I don't really care if you're vegan, vegetarian, paleo, junk food addict – you want to be eating these little guys. They have so many benefits it's ridiculous. I'll link to a really good article that I found in the show notes if you'd like to read more about the health benefits and the nutritional analysis of chia seeds. And a recipe of my own as well.Eating chia seeds has been linked to not only bone health, but also gut health, stabilizing your blood sugar and helping reduce inflammation.Components of chia seedsOne cool thing about chia seeds is that they do contain a good amount of fiber but they're also gentle on the gut. So this is important for people who have trouble digesting high-fiber foods like broccoli and cauliflower. Chia seeds actually are soothing for your whole digestive tract.They're small and hard when you get them in the packet, but when you soak them or when they mix with your digestive juices and things, they puff up and they're quite viscous which sounds horrible but they're actually quite delicious!They also contain minerals like phosphorus, manganese and magnesium, as well as calcium. And for those of you who don't eat dairy and you get people asking where you get your calcium, you can tell them that ounce per ounce, chia seeds actually contain more calcium than most dairy products.Chia seeds are also a complete protein, so if you don't eat meat and you get the 'where do you get your protein' question, well you can tell them that one ounce of chia seeds has 4 grams of protein. So you won't wilt.Why chia seeds are a great food for sport On the contrary. Besides providing protein, calcium, minerals and antioxidants, chia seeds also release energy over a long period of time rather than all at once. That's why they're such a good food for sport.Also if you've got a long day ahead of you and you know you won't be able to eat for a while, chia seeds can help keep you going for longer. You can try this out for yourself actually, have yourself a chia seed pudding for breakfast and see how you feel.How you use chia seedsWhich brings me to how you eat chia seeds. A lot of people just sprinkle the dry seeds over food, like you would any seed. Over salads, for example. Because they absorb liquid, you can also use them to thicken sauces and other dishes.But my favorite way to eat chia seeds is to soak them in some nut milk for an amazing pudding. It's a bit like tapioca, so if you like tapioca, you'll love chia seed pudding.There's a lot of them out there on the internet which you can find, but I've got a gorgeous recipe for chia seed pudding on my website which I'll link to in the shownotes, along with other recipes as well.And as an extra special bonus for you, Alexandra has an extra special recipe that uses chia seeds!Alexandra's super food for sport recipeAlexandra: Right! So I compete a lot. I go to a competition at 8 am and I come back home at 9 or 10 pm, so it's a very long day. And in 12 hours, I probably compete 10 or 15 minutes throughout the day.Me: Wow!Alexandra: Yeah, sometimes I have my fights at like 6 or 7 pm. So it's like, it did happen, I had one fight at 7 pm. You have one event in the evening. Because it's senior – senior meaning plus 21 - you have to wait a lot.So I read in a book this chia seed drink. The first time I had it was the world championships in Bulgaria, and I did not need water, or food, or anything else for the whole day. I was not hungry. And it was really amazing, because by 4 or 5 pm, I would be so dehydrated that nothing – tea, water...No matter how much I would drink, I would be dehydrated. My tissues, my body...my body was just saturated with water.Having this drink, what it did was it kept my energy levels up. I did not need to eat solid foods because it gives you protein, omega 6 and 3 fats, and in the drink it also has carbohydrates. You also have something that gives you a bit of a zing.So I was with my energy levels up, nourished, hydrated, focused...pretty awesome. Strong! Everyone else by 7 pm, they were down, you know, they can't drink anymore...but I was, yeah!How you make itFor the drink, how I make it, so everyone needs to test and see whatever they like. 500 ml of water, 2 tablespoons of chia seeds, the juice of 1 lime...sometimes I put 1 ½ depending on how sour I want it. And 2 or 3 teaspoons of organic honey. You just mix it up, shake it up, and it becomes like a gel to be honest. You just drink it throughout the day.I have 3 or 4 bottles with me when I go to a competition. And I had 3 competitions already. I tested it – it works!No drugs, just food for sportMe: Wow! That is so cool! And I think you said somebody...you were afraid they were gonna think you were on like, you know, performance enhancing drugs!Alexandra: Yeah! Well, you know, it's a food. So if they were to test anything, they wouldn't find anything besides chia seeds! (laughs)Me: (laughs) They'd find a lot of chia seeds!Alexandra: A lot of chia seeds! But yeah, people look a bit weird at you because the bottle is see-through, you know? You can see all the bits, and they don't really know what it is. So you have to say, “It's chia seeds, it's a food”.But you know, it's not their problem. As long as you don't have any weird substances. And you don't need weird substances, you know? You have all these foods...try this! This is good!And for runnersAnd if you're a runner and you do marathons and stuff, see if you can create a thicker gel. You put it in those pouches, and it's a lot better than the geogels and all that other stuff.Me: Oh yeah, yeah.Alexandra: Much, much, much better, so...Me: That's fantastic, yay! You guys have to try it! I'm gonna try it! Thank you so much!Alexandra: My pleasure.Have YOU got a story to share?So I hope you've enjoyed Alexandra's amazing story today as well as our food tips. And if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have been helpful, or even saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESAlexandra's website: http://themerisoiutechnique.com/unleash-your-physical-potentialAlexandra's retreat: http://draculasretreat.com/Book The Chimp ParadoxChia seed pudding recipe: http://rockingrawchef.com/gluten-free-rice-pudding-recipeOther 5-minute recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on benefits of chia seeds: https://authoritynutrition.com/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds/Alexandra Merisoiu, The Body Engineer, is the Founder of The Merisoiu Technique Institute and Dracula’s Retreat. She is also a qualified Low Back Pain Prevention Exercise Instructor and REPS registered. She specialises in working with runners, beginners and advanced, who want to run faster and further, with less effort and fewer injuries. This is done through natural movement fitness and running technique and mechanics.

Even after divorce you may find yourself running away with a handsome stranger to a foreign land...complete with happy endings, food and intuition and how to get yourself some more clarity in your life.And at the end of this episode I'll share with you one of my favorite things to eat to help increase your intuition – which could really come in handy if you've got a tough decision to make like our guest Darla did. Our guest, Darla AntoineI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Darla Antoine. Darla is a soul coach, and she works with the elements of what she calls Sacred Darkness, such as dreamwork, divination and deathwork (which is not as scary as it sounds, she tells me). Darla will tell you a bit more about what she does later on, but first I really want you to hear her story which I just can't wait to share with you because it's gonna be great!So Darla welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today!Darla: I'm excited to be here Barbara!Me: It's really great, I mean, I can't wait to hear your story because when you told me about it, I was like “That could have happened to me!”Darla: I know, right? Me: Because we've both had kind of like crazy pasts. And I know that it starts with a husband and kind of moves on from there with the mysterious stranger. So do you want to tell us what happened?Darla: Sure, OK.Darla's storySo I got married young, I was about 22 years old which was in 2004 and I loved my first husband, obviously. We're both from Washington State and we moved to Iowa.He started going to grad school to become a chiropractor, I started to go to grad school in New Mexico for intercultural communication. The last year of his chiropractic school, he had to work under a chiropractor, so we moved to Spain.Learning Spanish from very youngEver since I was a little girl, I always knew that I'd be moving to a Spanish-speaking country. At 6 years old I was trying to teach myself Spanish, I just knew I needed to learn Spanish.Me: Oh that's so cute!Darla: Yeah, and so this was it. We were moving to Spain and he knew he was gonna work under a doctor in Spain and we were gonna stay in Spain for as long as we wanted, and that whole thing. And I was like “Yes! It's finally happening!” I was about 26 years old at this point.But the long distance...I was living in New Mexico, he was living in Iowa and Spain. And we were only seeing each other every few months, which started to weigh on the relationship and there were other issues...Me: Oh, so you didn't go to Spain with him then?Darla: I did, but I also was going to grad school so in summer breaks or on vacation I'd take time off to go and work on our relationship.Whose dream will come true: mine or yours?But anyway we had a great time in Spain, but the distance was wearing on us and there were other issues about...Have you seen the movie LaLa Land?Me: No, but I know lots of people have.Darla: Yes, lots of people have. And the movie ends not the way you think it's going to end. It's very obvious that if the couple had ended up together, that only one of their dreams would come true. Not both of their dreams would come true.So that's how it was with my ex-husband. If I'd stayed with him, his dreams would have come true but my dreams wouldn't. I would just be the supporting role, and blah blah blah.So I was in a very tough position of walking away from our life in Spain in our relationship and going alone on my own and that's what my gut was telling me. I had a very profound dream that backed that up, and I went to a psychic for the first time in my life. She told me, she confirmed what I was feeling and confirmed that yes there was another life waiting for me if I wanted it, and that soon I would be travelling to Costa Rica for research. And I would meet someone there, and this someone would be involved in sustainability, eco living and such. I thought “OK, that's interesting”.And then I asked her some more questions and I got off the phone and made the tough decision. Not just right then and there, but over the next few weeks I slowly dissolved our marriage. It was very difficult.I left Spain and came back to the States and then I had taken the semester off from grad school. I wasn't in grad school in New Mexico, I was up in Washington State with my parents. You know, 26, 27 years old, living with my parents again.Me: I know what that's like, I did that once, it wasn't fun.Looking for a farmDarla: So it was this time of year, late March, early April, and I thought well I need to keep my focus on the future so I don't go crazy.I was studying intercultural communication and I wrote my masters thesis on how food creates cultural identity and legacy, so I thought “I'm gonna get out of the library and I'm gonna go work and visit farms and talk about how food is affecting people's cultural identity and their cultural legacy.So I started looking for permaculture farms in the Washington State, British Columbia area. And somehow I landed on a site for a permaculture farm in Costa Rica.Me: Uh-oh!Darla: Yeah! The psychic's words from 3 weeks ago? I totally didn't think even about it, it didn't even cross my mind. I'd forgotten what she'd said.So I thought “well this is interesting”. I sent them an email, and they wrote right back and they said “We'd love to have you come and volunteer, we could use you next month”. And I'm like “Next month is 10 days away, I should ask my husband about this” and I thought “I don't have to ask my husband about this, he's not gonna be my husband much longer”.Then I thought, “I should ask my mom about this” and I thought “No, no, I'm 26 years old, I don't have to ask my mom about this!” So I had like almost no money, I booked the ticket and did a happy dance because I was stepping into my own adulthood, making my own decisions, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it, and it felt really good!10 days later I was being dropped off at the end of a road in Costa Rica. And it wasn't until I had booked the ticket and wrote back that yes I'd be there in 10 days...That's when I remembered the psychic's words that I'd be going to Costa Rica for research.Me: Wow!Darla: And I got goosebumps, I thought “Oh my gosh, something's gonna happen!”Life on a hippy farmIt was great! It ended up being like a really disorganized hippy farm. I didn't learn anything about permaculture!Me: That's hysterical!Darla: I was disappointed but then I just embraced it. I was like “You know what? This is like summer camp for adults. This is fine”.I was gonna stay for a month but I ended up extending my stay for two months and I didn't have any money to pay the $300 to stay there for a month. So I made a trade: I would be the cook for the second month in exchange for staying. And so when you're the cook for 20 people, you're cooking all day.Me: Yeah, I know what that's like too!Darla: Yeah! So the first month was all summer camp and the second month was like work. But it was what I needed. I got to be around people who didn't know me as so-and-so's wife. They just were meeting me at face value and embracing me and loving me, and some of the people I met there are still really dear friends today.Me: And how was your Spanish at that time?Darla: It was pretty good. It wasn't as good as I thought it was, but it was pretty good because I'd been living in Spain. And I took Spanish in high school and college because I just always knew that I needed to learn Spanish. It's the only foreign language I've bothered to learn.From summer camp to full time cookSo about 3 weeks into my time there I was cooking. I wasn't officially the cook yet, but I was filling in for someone and I was cooking. And the guy who owns this farm also used to own a tour guiding company. He would bring in mostly college students who were on a tour. They would come in through his farm for a day or two and learn about permaculture and then go on the rest of their tour in the country.So one of these tours was coming through, there were about 18 college students. I was told they would be here at about 8 pm. Now there are two ways to get to this farm: you could hike through the jungle for an hour and a half, or you could take a 30-minute boat ride. It was very isolated which was perfect for me.So I was told that they were going to be walking in and the next day boating out and to have dinner ready by 4, they'd be arriving by 3, perfect. They'd be led by their Costa Rican tour guide. OK.And one day, among the vegetables...I'm in the kitchen and I'm chopping vegetables and all of a sudden there's this redhead standing in my kitchen. He's decked out in all this fancy gear. Fancy outdoor gear. And I'm thinking because he's pale-skinned and redheaded, “He must be one of the professors”. He looked about 30 years old. The group's arriving. And sure enough I see some college students walking in behind him.Well I immediately get super annoyed with him. I'm like “Who is this guy?” I don't see the Costa Rican tour guide anywhere.A friend and I had just gotten lost on that trail between the farm and the nearest town the week before. It's a very difficult trail, you need to know what you're doing.I'm like “Here's some hotshot young professor, he's ditched the tour guide, showing off, he's wearing a whole bunch of gear he's never gonna wear again, it's obviously all brand new...”Me: It's interesting how many assumptions you made though, right?Darla: I made so many assumptions! And I was so annoyed. And then I saw the way he was looking at me. Then I thought “Oh my God, this guy's gonna be a pain, he's gonna want to flirt with me...”So here's the thing, I very seriously thought, “He's gonna want me to move to Michigan to the suburbs and have babies!”Me: Oh that's hysterical!Darla: I don't know why Michigan, but Michigan popped up and I was like “I don't want to move to the suburbs and have babies in Michigan! No offense.”Me: Now I'm laughing because I know what happens afterwards, right?Darla: So yes, but then he thought I was Costa Rican. He opened his mouth to introduce himself and it was in Spanish, in perfect, 'this is my first language' Spanish. Not 'I've learned Spanish really well and I can introduce myself' Spanish. It was perfect Spanish.And OK, well, I stopped, my eyes popped out, my mouth might have dropped open a little bit, and I was like “OK well you just got more interesting!” I was kind of shocked and I didn't say anything, so then he took my shock for not understanding, and he switched to perfect, 'this is my first language' English!He said “Hi, I'm Andy, I'm the tour guide”. And I was like, “OK, hello!”Me: All your assumptions were gone, right?Darla: All my assumptions were gone, which was wonderful! It was nice to be surprised. In less than 24 hours...And there was definitely some attraction between us, but he remained very professional. He was there at the farm for less than 24 hours, so he didn't try to sneak off into the bushes with me...Me: Did you regret that?Darla: Yeah! But then I thought well, he doesn't just hit on every cute girl he comes across, this is something. So it turns out his parents emigrated to Costa Rica when he was in the womb, when his mother was pregnant with him, from Michigan! They came from Michigan in 1978 and moved to Costa Rica and he had been born and raised in Costa Rica by US immigrant parents.And before they left the next day, we exchanged email addresses and he said, “I don't care when you come back to Costa Rica, I don't care if it's next month, next week, one year, two years from now, you let me know the next time you come back to Costa Rica and I'm gonna take you out on a date”.Me: Oh! It's like something out of a movie!Darla: Yeah, it really was! But I thought, “well you're cute but I'm never gonna see you again”. I took his email address and neither one of us were big on Facebook but we eventually added each other to Facebook and I went back to New Mexico to finish my graduate degree, I got another boyfriend and kind of forgot about him, honestly.Two years later...And twice over the course of two years he emailed me via Facebook and all the conversation was “How are you?” “I'm fine, how are you?” “I'm fine” “Good”. That was it. Hardly no conversation at all.Me: Wow.Darla: Yeah. But then I was finishing grad school and I thought “You know, I'm gonna go back to Costa Rica, that's really where I feel like I started to become my own adult. And I'm gonna go back for a few weeks and go visit friends that I made there before I go get a job and have to ask a boss for permission for vacation”.So I was making plans to go back to Costa Rica when he emailed me, Andy, this guy in Costa Rica. He emailed me out of the blue. And I'm like “Oh actually I'm coming to Costa Rica, do you still want to go on that date?” And I thought he could have been married with kids, then, I don't know.Me: Yeah, because it was two years later, right?Darla: Yeah, it was two years later. And he immediately wrote back and said “Let me know when you're coming and I'll pick you up at the airport”.Me: Ohhhhh!Darla: And I thought, “Oh dear!”Falling in love...So it went from being seeing him for a night, going on a date, to spending the entire 3 weeks with him. He drove me all over the country, we fell in love.Now here's the thing: the psychic said I would meet someone in Costa Rica and that they would be involved in sustainable living. And he has an organic sustainable farm, he and his sisters run an eco lodge, so yeah.We live on an organic, sustainable homestead now in Costa Rica, and it's been 6 years. Actually 6 years earlier this week, we celebrated it's been 6 years since I came to Costa Rica to see him, and we've got two little boys, and we're madly in love with each other still.Me: Oh wow! That's such a nice story! And it has a happy ending as well, doesn't it?Darla: It does, yeah.Me: And one of the things that came out when we were talking about this was you were saying how your intuition really helped you to make some of the right decisions. Do you want to say more about that? Were there specific moments when you just tuned into yourself? And how did you do that?Darla: Yes, so my intuition really started picking up at the same time as my marriage started ending. And I've always been a really strong dreamer. Dreaming has always been a really great way to get messages to me from the divine.So one was I had a dream right before I ended it with my husband that confirmed that I needed to end it. Two was right before I came here to visit Andy, speaking of dreams, anyway. A most powerful dreamI woke up in the early morning and I started coughing. Like I'd been sleeping with my mouth open or something and my throat was dry. So I started coughing and I needed to get some water. There was water across my room on my desk, but I was still dreaming. And I had this very vivid image of like my astral body or something in the cosmos. Like I was flying through stars, I've never consciously remembered something like this.And I was zooming to get back to my body because my body needed me, but there were these two orbs of light going with me. Like we'd been out playing in the cosmos. I got back into my body and I woke up, but these orbs of light were laughing at me. They were taunting me. They were like “Ha ha, look who has a body! Look who needs to get back to their body! Ha ha!”And as I got back into my body and I started becoming conscious, I could still see and hear them and the more I woke up, the more they faded. Then I tried to get up out of bed to go get the water and I fell to the floor, like I couldn't operate my body. I still wasn't completely back into it.Me: Wow!Darla: I started laughing and I had to like drag myself across the floor to get my glass of waterMe: Yeah cause you must have been really thirsty!Darla: Yeah! By the time I'd had a glass of water I had regained function of my body, but I just felt that those two orbs were gonna be my children.Me: Oh! Wow!On paper? Insane. But in reality...Darla: Yeah, this was about a month before I came to visit Andy on the trip that we fell in love. So I thought, “OK, things are shifting in my life. Things are changing. A whole new energy is coming”.And then sure enough within like 8 months after we got together, I was pregnant by the end of that same year with my first son. So yeah, so the dreams definitely told me that shifts were coming and that changes were coming.But then also just the gut feeling that I had that “This is crazy, I left one husband and now I'm moving to a foreign country to be with a guy”.On paper it all sounded insane, but in my heart and in my gut I knew that this was right, this was what I'd been preparing my whole life for. I always knew that I needed to speak Spanish. I always knew that my partner, my mate, was far, far away in another country. Ever since I was a little girl, I just knew it.Me: That's really funny that you say that about the Spanish, because I was told years and years ago by a psychic that...I was learning French at the time and the psychic was like, “Well, you really need to learn Spanish” and I was like, “Really?” I was in high school, I was like 18 or something, you know? And I wound up using Spanish when I was 38! But use it I did and, you know, married a Mexican, yeah, all that stuff. So it sometimes takes quite a long time to manifest, right? But it does, it's there.What Darla does now to help othersSo talking about dreams and intuition, I think that links really well to the kind of thing that you're doing now with people. Do you want to say a little bit about that? And then, you know, where people can find you?Darla: Sure. So one of the biggest things I love helping people with, especially women but men as well, I love helping them also tap into their dreams. Even if you haven't remembered a dream in years or whatever, you can regain your dreams.And on my website which is – should I give my website address?Me: Yeah, sure!Darla: OK my website is thecopperscarab.com I've got a whole bunch of blog articles that can help you reclaim your dreams. But I also have a course that will just walk you through everything you need to know about dreams.Death work and transitionsI also help people with death work. This is kind of a new door I've got my foot in, but I really love it. I think death work is something that's present at any time of transition, and it's something that really helped me navigate divorce. It helped me navigate moving to another country, and it helped me navigate becoming a mom. Because the old 'me' had to die. Well, all three of those things. I had to shed an old version of me.And between divorce and moving to another country and becoming a mom, I think motherhood has been the hardest transition for me. Maybe because there's so much joy and love wrapped up in it as well, it's not just that I'm cutting off this part of my life and moving on. You have to keep living and interacting and loving this new life. And it's also very painful. It can be very painful and a very hard transition.Divination for everyoneSo I help women transition through big life transitions with death work, and then I'm a big fan of divination. Dreaming I think is a form of divination, but especially when you've got big decisions to make. It's really easy to get stuck in your head or stuck in your emotions and you kind of need a way to get the clarity without the emotions and without influencing it yourselves, so learning a divination tool is really helpful. Whether it's tarot, or claircognizant - inner knowing - or dreamwork, or anything like that. I think at least a form of divination is really important for everyone to know.Me: Yeah, I'd agree with that, cause I think it's just really empowering, you know? To know that you've got this tool to make really important decisions yourself, right?Darla: Exactly.Me: Yeah, that's really cool. I'll definitely put the link to your website in the shownotes as well, and I'll get into the food tips in just a moment.But first I wanted to thank you so much for being here to share your story cause I love your story and I also love what you do. So I'm gonna encourage people massively to check you out and see what you do because it's just amazing, so thank you for being here with me!Darla: Thanks for having me!Me: You're very welcome!Food and intuitionSo, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of my favorite foods to help with your intuition in case you've got any difficult decisions to make, among other things.This food is very common and I'm sure you've eaten it already without knowing the amazing good that it's doing for your mind!The food is...almonds!Now I'm not talking roasted, salted almonds. I'm talking about fresh, raw almonds.Benefits of almondsAlmonds are a great source of vitamin E, protein and calcium, which are all nutrients that our endocrine glands absorb and which therefore can help bring us clarity of mind, focus and heightened intuition.How you use almondsHow do you use almonds? Well you can eat them raw by the handful, of course. You can sprinkle them on salads or eat them in a trail mix. But no matter how you eat them, one thing I would say is that to get maximum benefit from your almonds, it's best to soak them first for a few hours. I soak mine overnight or while I go out for the day.The reason I say to soak them is because nuts have a natural coating of enzyme inhibitors which can make them heavy to digest. The enzyme inhibitors are natural, and they're the reason you can walk through the grocery store and not a forest. They tell the nuts to wait to become a tree until they've got not just light, but water as well. So when you soak them, you're basically activating them. You're telling them that it's time to release that fabulous growth potential – which you absorb when you eat them soaked. It's kind of like eating the potential of an entire tree with each soaked nut. Pretty cool, right?Think of sprouts – it's the same principle. You're eating the potential of an entire plant in each sprout. That's why you've heard that they're so good for you.Where to find out moreAnyway, if you want some specific recipes for using almonds, I have lots in my 5-Minute recipe ebooks that I'll link to in the show notes.The link between food and intuition is actually one of my favorite topics, so I'll also link to an article of mine that goes into more detail about several foods that you can eat to help improve your intuition.And for those of you who want to read more about the science behind food and intuition, I'll link to an excerpt from the best resource that I found which comes from a book called Nutrition for Intuition, written by Doreen Virtue and Robert Reeves and published by Hay House.I'll also link to an article that has more information on other health benefits of almonds in case you find that useful, because there are a LOT of them!Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation),  I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESDarla's website: thecopperscarab.comArticle on food for intuition: https://rockingrawchef.com/increase-intuition-with-food/Excerpt from article on food and intuition from the book Nutrition for Intuition:  http://www.fourcornersmagazine.com/sedonaconsciousmag/nutrition-for-intuition-by-doreen-virtue-and-robert-reeves/Article on other benefits of almonds: https://draxe.com/almonds-nutrition/5-Minute recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/About Darla AntoineDarla is a soul coach who helps women navigate times of transition and dark nights of the soul utilizing what she calls the Elements of Sacred Darkness: Dreamwork, Divination and Deathwork (not as scary as it sounds). She is also the mother of two young boys and lives on a homestead in Costa Rica. By accident.

Wahoo, and wehoo everyboday! Rock your body! This week on Will and Bobby we're granting all your wishes, by distorting them into grotesque punishments. Here's a good example of what's going on: Allie: I wish that Bill Gates would suddenly decide that I'm responsible for inspiring him for all his brilliant ideas. He then sends me a percentage of his profits. Bobby: Okay, "Bill Gates" is a crazy redneck who sends you dead animals in the mail. Me: Yeah, you didn't explicitly state what "Bill Gates" your referring to, so now a crazy person is putting dead animals in our mailbox. Click here to hear stuff like that! And then: iTunes!                   @BobbyKoester!               Facebook!              @WillRogers2000!                YouTube! Feel free to send comments or questions to us at WillAndBobby@gmail.com, and we'll be sure to get back to you! Episode 66 next week!

exapme from the blog click links to read more from Neil. AUDIO from the bbc local radio - suplied from the internet/other podcasts and provided here simply incase you missed it. With the Wife with the Wife in Space Nuffink in ze world can stop us now! Except this story, obviously... A couple of hours before we settled down to watch The Underwater Menace, Sue and I appeared as guests on Bob Fischer's BBC Tees radio show to shamelessly plug this blog. You can listen to the edited highlights below (and Sue's PVC Dalek-suit anecdote was news to me!): Episode One Sue: That's just great. This story is going to star that ****ing hat. I hate that ****ing hat. We both enjoy the opening TARDIS scene, especially Jamie's reactions to the insanity he has walked into. There's a playful edge to the proceedings and a warmth we haven't really felt since the glory days of Ian, Susan and Barbara. We chuckle when Ben sarcastically hopes for the Daleks ("I bet the kids wouldn't have complained") while the Doctor's desire to encounter prehistoric monsters is dismissed out of hand ("not on this budget, love"). Me: Where do you hope they'll end up this time? Sue: Somewhere with decent carpentry. The TARDIS arrives on a beach and when Polly guesses at their whereabouts, Sue declares, in perfect harmony: Sue: Cornwall! It's always ****ing Cornwall! It doesn't take very long for our heroes to find themselves in danger: a platform they have been standing on is actually a lift, and as they hurtle beneath the sea, the TARDIS crew succumb to the bends. Sue: That's very interesting. Ben just asked Polly to get them out of there. He didn't ask the Doctor and he's standing right next to him. I don't blame Ben though; this Doctor is still pretty useless. When they regain consciousness, Polly finds some pottery with the logo for the 1968 Mexico Olympiad emblazoned on it, and then our heroes are confronted by a race of people dressed in clam shells and seaweed. Sue believes she has it sussed: Sue: Are they rehearsing for the Opening Ceremony? Their high priest even sports a fish on his head: Sue: Please tell me the Doctor doesn't get a hat like that. Just as Sue believes she has a handle on events, our heroes are strapped to some slabs and sadistically lowered toward a mad man's pet sharks. Sue: Is this a Bond movie now? Me: Yes. You Only Live 13 Times. Sue: Has this got anything to do with the Olympics? Anything at all? When the Doctor signs his name 'Dr. W', he reignites an old debate: Sue: You can't really argue with that, can you? That settles it: his name is Dr. Who. You'll just have to accept it, love. Me: Unless his real name begins with a W - Sue: Like Doctor Wibbly-Wobbly-Timey-Wimey? Would that make you feel any better? And does it really matter? I call him Dr. Who all the time - Me: Yes, I know. And every time you do it, part of me dies. When Professor Zaroff reveals that they are currently hanging out on the lost continent of Atlantis, Sue doesn't even flinch: Sue: Atlantis. Of course it's Atlantis. Where else would they be in this ****-ed up programme? So, it's James Bond on Atlantis? Gotcha. Thanks to those fainthearted Australians, the cliffhanger moves, although we find ourselves sympathising with the censor as Polly is strapped to a table and threatened with a large hypodermic needle by some evil scientists who want to turn her into a fish. Yes, a fish. Sue: I don't know what Polly is moaning about; I'd love to breathe underwater indefinitely. She could stick around and enter the 1972 Olympics. Mark Spitz would have nothing on her. Episode Two Me: How short is Polly's surgical gown - Sue: Trust you to notice that, love. The hot topic of conversation during this episode is Zaroff. Who else? Sue: He reminds me of that mad scientist from that show you love: Comedy Theater 2000 - Me: Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Sue: That's it. He reminds me of the mad scientist from that: an over-the-top pantomime villain. Me: Believe it or not, the guy playing him is actually a very fine actor - Sue: Oh, I don't doubt it. He's just having a laugh with the part. And who can blame him? How else would you play this character? His plan is completely pointless; there's no clever reason for him to do any of this, he just wants to blow up the world. There's no benefit or motive at all. Me: He's insane. Sue: It's lazy. With no motivation or backstory you have to play him as a larger-than-life lunatic. I like him; he's committed. He's definitely the funniest villain we've had in the series so far. When Ben and Jamie are taken to the mines of Atlantis, a high pitched whining cuts through the scene. We assume it represents the sound of the drilling but whatever it is, it's making our teeth itch. Sue: If we were 16 years old, we would hear that sound whenever we went near an off-license - Me: Have you warmed to Troughton yet? He's basically playing his version of the Doctor now. More or less. Sue: He reminds me of Ken Dodd in some of these stills. That one in particular (see right). The music doesn't help. It's atrocious. It sounds like they've let a small child loose on a Bontempi organ. This is the worst music that I've heard in the series so far. Who's responsible for it? Me: An Australian called Dudley Simpson - Sue: Sack him. He's rubbish. Episode Three Finally, after enduring thirteen consecutive recons (count them! thirteen!), we are reunited with a real bona fide episode. I never thought I'd ever hear myself say this but thank Amdo for The Underwater Menace Episode 3. Sue: Even though the story is still a complete mess, it's a thousand times easier to follow it when it exists. I don't want to state the bleedin' obvious but even the very worst story improves when you can actually see it. The recons I gave good scores to must have been incredible - The highlight of the episode for Sue is, of course, the sight of Jamie and Ben in tight-fitting rubber: Sue: Given the state of some of their costumes, they should have called this story The Underwear Menace. Me: I think the playwright Joe Orton mentioned this story in his diary. Or was it in Salmon Rushdie's The Satanic Verses? No, it must have been Joe Orton; he fancied Jamie in his rubber suit, I think. Or maybe it was Kenneth Williams. My memory is almost as bad as yours. Sue: Jamie and Ben wouldn't look out of place at that nightclub, Heaven. As if to accentuate this observation, Jamie and Ben suddenly launch themselves into the campest salute this side of 'Allo 'Allo. Sue: I'll say no more. Sue: Does Troughton ever go through a story where he doesn't play that bloody recorder? And are there any stories where he doesn't dress up at the drop of a hat (which he'll probably pick up and put on)? He's a borderline transvestite. Me: You might want to hold onto something during the next scene. We're about to meet the Fish People. Sue: They look like a second-rate dance troupe who are waiting to audition for Britain's Got Talent. They're probably going to do a up-tempo version of Yellow Submarine. A miner called Jacko attempts to turn the Fish People into striking militants. He does this by winding them up a bit. At one point he cries, "Are you not men?" and, quick as a flash, Sue replies: Sue: No! We're fish! What are you, blind? Hang on, is that Polly in a snorkel? Me: No, it's a Fish Person. Sue: They're having a laugh. And then it happens. Impossible to describe. Impossible to watch. Sue: This is the lowest point in Doctor Who yet. By some considerable margin. Please make it stop. Me: Is this worse than ? Sue: Oh yes, this is even more half-arsed. Me: It's like a perverse joke: you wait 13 episodes for a real episode and then you get this. Sue: I take it all back - this would have been much better as a recon. Something that really niggles at us is the Fish People's economic impact on Atlantis, which is based on the assumption that the food they farm must be consumed immediately: Sue: OK, let me get this straight: Zaroff has a nuclear reactor but he hasn't got a fridge - or, better still, a fridge freezer - to put any food in? That makes no sense at all. Me: This is your first proper look at Patrick Troughton. Have you formed an opinion yet? Sue: I feel a little more comfortable with him now that I've seen him in action. He's far more animated than I expected and he's definitely got charisma. There's something about him. Sadly, the director isn't doing him any favours so I'll have to reserve judgement until I've seen some more. And then we reach the moment The Underwater Menace is probably best known for. But immediately before it arrives - and I'd completely forgotten this - Zaroff stabs someone with a spear, he shoots someone at point-blank range and then he has two others killed off-screen. It's horrific! But it's completely eclipsed by what follows: Sue: Wow. It's so mesmerising, we have to watch it again. And again. And again. Sue: He's having a whale of a time. Me: I'm glad someone is. Episode Four Sue: I still can't believe he didn't bring some fridges with him. Still, I guess if you are planning to blow up the world you can't think of everything. You know, I think every episode of Doctor Who could be improved with a Zaroff. The only thing missing is a scene of him tearing his hair out as he screams, "Why am I surrounded by idiots!". Me: There's still twenty minutes to go. I wouldn't rule anything out. Sue: I like the way the show has kept to its educational remit. Me: What? Sue: Jamie is from the past and therefore he doesn't understand what radioactivity is. Some of the children watching this wouldn't know either - Me: Yeah, that's great. There's just one tiny problem: they don't explain it. Polly says she can't be bothered! Polly and Jamie are struggling to escape the rising waters of Atlantis: Sue: It's turned into a disaster movie now. Me: Oh, it's a disaster all right. Sue: Why is Polly wearing a fireplace corbel on her head? Me: I don't even know what that means. Thanks to those Aussie wimps, we get to see Professor Zaroff drown. Well, I say drown... Sue: That's not drowning! Zaroff has hours left before the water rises above his head! Maybe he was bored and he decided to commit suicide? The world saved, the Doctor and his companions leave the Atlantans to it. Sue: Why are they bothering to rebuild Atlantis anyway? Why don't they just move up to the surface? They've got fridges up there. And while they missed the 1968 Olympics, Mexico have got the World Cup in 1970. It would be a shame if they missed it. The Final Score Sue: That was bonkers. And a little bit shit. 2/10 Sue: Zaroff was excellent, though. I could watch him all day. I'm not convinced that he's dead either; I think he was just wetting his hair a bit. He should definitely return in the new series. The League of Gentlemen could play him. Me: What, all of them? The experiment continues. Tags: , , , , Click to share this

Three men coach me as I try to record myself peeing. Me: Oh! I think I'm gonna do it ... [waiting] ... nope. Just stopped. Man 1: What would you like us to sing? Man 2: Should all acquaintance be forgot... Me: Yeah, that's good! They were there for a workshop to overcome shy bladder. Turns out mine was the shyest bladder of all. This is not the shy bladder feature you heard on Prime Time Radio or Word of Mouth. This contains the bits that were too juicy for the public airwaves.