Podcasts about writing fantasy

Enter the WIS Podcast Anniversary Giveaway! Win Book Coaching Sessions + More Prizes!This week is all about writing fantasy and building magic systems! We cover:What a magic system is designed to doThe difference between soft vs. hard and low vs. high magic systems (and why knowing the difference matters)Practical ways to ground readers in the familiar, even when your world is totally newStrategies for overcoming those tricky mental blocks we all hit while building fantasy worlds (you're definitely not alone!)Gina's powerful tips from brain science to help you connect with your readers on a deeper levelIf you've ever struggled to craft magic systems or fantasy worlds readers can't get enough of, this episode is for you. Gina and I will leave you feeling inspired, capable, and excited to dive into your own magical creationsLinks mentioned: Four Core Types of Magic Systems  inkybookwyrm.comWord Wizard's Journey: Turn Your Story Idea into a Marketable Book https://www.inkybookwyrm.com/f/bookmapYouTube: Gina Kammer, The Inky Bookwyrmhttps://www.youtube.com/@ginakammerEnchant Your Readers programhttps://www.inkybookwyrm.com/courses/enchantyourreadersPlus, fantasy and sci-fi writers can join her Critique Partner Program (50% off through this link!)Have a comment or idea about the show? Send me a direct text! Love to hear from you.Support the show To become a supporter of the show, click here!To get in touch with Stacy: Email: Stacy@writeitscared.co https://www.writeitscared.co/ https://www.instagram.com/writeitscared/ Take advantage of these Free Resources From Write It Scared: Download Your Free Novel Planning and Drafting Quick Start Guide Download Your Free Guide to Remove Creative Blocks and Work Through Fears

Send us a textJoin Drake and Marie as they discuss using author voice vs character voice.Writer's room (50% off for lifetime membership): https://writersroom.mn.co/plans/338439?bundle_token=196fd3965307a65eee0d1bf2bc6fa5a6&utm_source=manualMembership for Just In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxvBH0EkwuHsQ9ryHHQNi2Q/joinGive us feedback at releasingyourinnerdragon(at)gmail(dot)comDiscord: https://discord.gg/vMrmBsF5fhMagicfall: http://magicfallnovel.com/Drake's Contact Details:Starving Writer Studio: https://www.starvingwriterstudio.com/Drake-U: https://class.drakeu.com/  - Use RYID25 for 25% off!Writer's Room: https://writersroom.mn.co/Marie's contact details:Books: https://mariemullany.com/booksJust In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/c/JustInTimeWorlds?sub_confirmation=1

Yet another episode in the Genre Essentials series, and the last Genre Specific episode, this time we're chatting about Sci-Fi and Fantasy. And before you yell at me, yes I know they are two different genres! But bear with me, while I explain why I have lumped them together for the purposes of this episode.  Don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you have a burning questions you'd like answered, please email through my contact form on my website https://www.jfgibson.com.au/, or reach out on Instagram where you'll find me @jfgibsonwriter subscribe to my Substack https://writesquadcommunity.substack.com/ for lots more on writing, publishing, books and more. You can also support the podcast by buying me a coffee on https://ko-fi.com/jodigibson  Your support helps with the hosting and production costs of the show, so thank you. And, you'll get a shout out on the next episode too! Happy listening (and writing)! Jodi

In this episode, award-nominated author Ciel Pierlot joins me in the Toolshed for a fascinating chat about writing fantasy and writing queer fiction. Ciel's new book, The Hunter's Gambit, was published by Angry Robot earlier this year. We chat all about the writing of the story, Ciel's writing process as a whole, and crafting characters who are interesting and engaging. Ciel also discusses her experience of the query trenches and how she found a literary agent. As always, you're bound to learn something new! JOIN OUR DISCORD COMMUNITY https://mailchi.mp/395aa89d6ec0/join-richie-billings-community-of-writers ABOUT CIEL PIERLOT https://cielpierlot.com/ GET THE HUNTER'S GAMBIT https://angryrobotbooks.com/books/the-hunters-gambit/ GET IN TOUCH thefantasywriterstoolshed@gmail.com https://richiebilling.com/ RESOURCES Discover more ⁠⁠⁠⁠writing tips⁠ and guides⁠⁠⁠ here - ⁠https://richiebilling.com/writing-tips/⁠ And learn more about ⁠⁠⁠⁠writing fantasy⁠⁠⁠⁠ here - ⁠https://richiebilling.com/fantasy-writing/

Shannon Hale returns as a guest for an in-depth discussion on writing in the fantasy genre. Join Brandon Mull and Jason Conforto as they explore the intricacies of crafting fantastical worlds and characters, and how these imaginative stories can profoundly impact real life. Gain valuable insights from two seasoned authors as they share their experiences and perspectives on the magic of fantasy writing.

Welcome to another episode of the Writing Quest Podcast! In this episode, we sit down with Rob Leigh, the author of "Pathlighter." Join us as we explore Rob's journey from an avid reader to a self-published author. We dive into his creative influences, writing process, and the unique challenges he's faced along the way. Chapters: [00:00] Introduction: Introduction to the episode and Rob Leigh. [01:04] Rob's Background: Rob discusses his background and journey into writing . [12:35] Novella: Rob talks about his novella based on his favorite D&D character . [13:14] Writing Process: Rob explains his writing process and how it evolved over time . [22:24] Indie Publishing: Insights into indie publishing and balancing life as an author . [32:54] Music Influence: Rob shares his love for heavy metal and its influence on his work . [43:36] Community: The importance of the indie publishing community and its support . [52:12] Connection: Feeling connected in the indie publishing community despite geographical distances . [53:22] Final Thoughts: Final thoughts and closing remarks . Connect with Rob Leigh: Website: www.robleighauthor.com Purchase "Pathlighter": www.robleighauthor.com/pathlighter Follow Rob on Instagram: @robleighauthor Follow Rob on Twitter: @ProblyRobWriter Follow Writing Quest: Twitter: https://twitter.com/WritingQuest Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writing.quest/ Storybook: Master Novelist: https://writingquest.gumroad.com/l/StorybookMasterNovelist Join the Conversation: Leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform! Have questions or comments? Reach out to us on social media or email us at contact@writingquest.com. Subscribe & Stay Tuned: Don't forget to subscribe to Writing Quest on your preferred podcast platform for more inspiring interviews and writing tips. #WritingQuestPodcast #WritingCommunity #AuthorInterviews #CreativeWriting #SelfPublishing --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/writing-quest/support

Nedda Lewers is the Egyptian-American author of Daughters of the Lamp and its sequel, Children of the Wind. These books tell the story of a a 12-year-old Egyptian-American girl who discovers her family's secret legacy as the keepers of Ali Baba's treasure. Nedda discusses her journey as a writer, the experience of having a mentor, and the excitement of getting a book deal.From the publisher: Percy Jackson meets Arabian fairy tales in this epic middle grade fantasy series about a girl who becomes the keeper of Ali Baba's treasure.I love audiobooks! If you do, too, consider switching to Libro.fm. For the same price as other major audiobook providers, you can find all your favorites as well as curated lists of audiobooks written by or recommended by guests of the Middle Grade Matters podcast. Click here to learn more! Consider buying your books from the Middle Grade Matters Bookshop, where proceeds support this podcast as well as independent bookstores everywhere. For bonus content and info on upcoming episodes, subscribe to the Middle Grade Matters newsletter here: Newsletter, and follow Middle Grade Matters on Instagram and Twitter.If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to follow us and please leave us a review.

Mark Lawrence is a best-selling fantasy author. His first trilogy, THE BROKEN EMPIRE, has been universally acclaimed as a ground-breaking work of fantasy. Following The Broken Empire is the related RED QUEEN'S WAR trilogy. THE BOOK OF THE ANCESTOR trilogy is set on a different world and is followed by the related BOOK OF THE ICE trilogy. There is also THE IMPOSSIBLE TIMES trilogy, a D&D/sci-fi work set in London in the 80s. All of these trilogies can be read in any order. His latest series is THE LIBRARY trilogy, with the second book, THE BOOK THAT BROKE THE WORLD, out now.It was great having the chance to interview Mark live before an audience at this year's Cymera Festival in Edinburgh. We chatted about his journey to becoming published, and he told us how he hates planning and never does for his books. He also talked about how success in publishing is such a lottery, and why he created the Self Published Fantasy Blog Off (SPFBO) to try and help authors with that lottery.Links:Buy Mark's books nowFollow Mark on Twitter/XVisit Mark's websiteThe SPFBO websitePage One - The Writer's Podcast is brought to you by Write Gear, creators of Page One - the Writer's Notebook. Learn more and order yours now: https://www.writegear.co.uk/page-oneFollow us on Twitter/XFollow us on FacebookFollow us on InstagramFollow us on BlueskyFollow us on Threads Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, Jeff sits down with author Joan Lightning to look at Joan's work-in-progress. They talk about keeping all the characters included in the dialogue, using character positioning and body language to build romantic tension, using inner thoughts, avoiding summaries, and building fantasy worlds. For more on writing powerful dialogue and characters, check out https://dialoguedoctor.com/

Send us a Text Message.Join Drake and Marie in a live critique where they tear apart a willing victim's work.Writer's room (50% off for lifetime membership): https://writersroom.mn.co/plans/338439?bundle_token=196fd3965307a65eee0d1bf2bc6fa5a6&utm_source=manualMembership for Just In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxvBH0EkwuHsQ9ryHHQNi2Q/joinGive us feedback at releasingyourinnerdragon(at)gmail(dot)comMagicfall: http://magicfallnovel.com/Drake's Contact Details:Starving Writer Studio: https://www.starvingwriterstudio.com/Drake-U: https://class.drakeu.com/  - Use RYID25 for 25% off!Writer's Room: https://writersroom.mn.co/Marie's contact details:Books: https://mariemullany.com/workJust In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/c/JustInTimeWorlds?sub_confirmation=1

Marissa chats with Tessa Gratton about her new YA fantasy, BLOOD & FURY, the sequel to CHAOS & FLAME, co-written with Justina Ireland. Also discussed: building social justice and important topics into fantasy while also making a book fun, how working on different projects concurrently can be both challenging and inspiring, creating inspiration lists (inspired by ID Lists from past guest Jennifer Lynn Barnes), the process of co-writing and editing each other, pros and cons of writing with a partner, worldbuilding, and so much more!The Happy Writer at Bookshop.orgPurchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores. Amplify MarketersOur mission is to help your message rise above the noise so it can be heard loud & clear.Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377 Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/

Send us a Text Message.Join Drake and Marie in a live critique where they tear apart a willing victim's work.Writer's room (50% off for lifetime membership): https://writersroom.mn.co/plans/338439?bundle_token=196fd3965307a65eee0d1bf2bc6fa5a6&utm_source=manualMembership for Just In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxvBH0EkwuHsQ9ryHHQNi2Q/joinGive us feedback at releasingyourinnerdragon(at)gmail(dot)comMagicfall: http://magicfallnovel.com/Drake's Contact Details:Starving Writer Studio: https://www.starvingwriterstudio.com/Drake-U: https://class.drakeu.com/  - Use RYID25 for 25% off!Writer's Room: https://writersroom.mn.co/Marie's contact details:Books: https://mariemullany.com/workJust In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/c/JustInTimeWorlds?sub_confirmation=1

Join Drake and Marie as they discuss adding humor to stories and why it helps with reader engagement. Writer's room (50% off for lifetime membership): https://writersroom.mn.co/plans/338439?bundle_token=196fd3965307a65eee0d1bf2bc6fa5a6&utm_source=manualMembership for Just In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxvBH0EkwuHsQ9ryHHQNi2Q/joinGive us feedback at releasingyourinnerdragon(at)gmail(dot)comMagicfall: http://magicfallnovel.com/Drake's Contact Details:Starving Writer Studio: https://www.starvingwriterstudio.com/Drake-U: https://class.drakeu.com/  - Use RYID25 for 25% off!Writer's Room: https://writersroom.mn.co/Marie's contact details:Books: https://mariemullany.com/workJust In Time Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/c/JustInTimeWorlds?sub_confirmation=1

US Army veteran and author Eric Johnson Eric Johnson. He writes military science fiction, such as his series 2-4 Calvary Series, steampunk, and now has a fantasy series called the Tales of Boromir. The first in the series is the Trials of Boromir. Today we will talking about his transition from science fiction to fantasy, discuss elements of fantasy such as worldbuilding and mythical creatures, as well as where we find inspiration. If you are interested in purchasing their books, you can do so here If you would like to purchase his book Trials of Boromir You can here: https://amzn.to/3vrSkin If you woud like to go to his website, check it out here: https://linktr.ee/ericj562 If you enjoyed this episode, you might also enjoy my interview with science fiction writer Richard Friesen author of Wetware Wizards - https://open.spotify.com/episode/5K14zOxvWUYhFPrHc8AkBW?si=6781adb1ef8d4deb or my interview with fantasy author LC Conn author of Realm of Dragons - https://open.spotify.com/episode/0CkkI6dt49FccvDatetuwm?si=2870534122a34a41 If you are interested in being a guest on my podcast, you may fill out the form on my website: http://www.authorsalcove.com/be-a-guest You can also follow me on:   Facebook: http://facebook.com/authorsalcove Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/authorsalcovepodcast/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agnes-wolfe-20bb47288/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2EQYPBl1LtZh08qCdIRHTy?si=aa56d7a9565a49fa YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWVCbL470bDCgeg23kziYAg (possible affiliate links above) --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/authorsalcove/message

We are thrilled to introduce Ali McLafferty, author, teacher, and most recent winner of the as-yet-untitled (Manuscript) Academy Awards. Ali was nominated by agent Melissa Edwards (Stonesong Literary) for this gorgeous fantasy novel that brings up a lot of issues in our world as well. We discuss how she polished her query, how many drafts she did of her first page--and what she learned along the way. Learn more about Ali at https://www.alimclafferty.com/. Full transcript at https://manuscriptacademy.com/podcast-ali-mclafferty TIMESTAMPS: Feedback on Allie's query letter and first page (00:10:09) Julie and Jessica provide feedback on Allie's query letter and first page, discussing its strengths and areas for improvement. Allie's revision process for the query letter (00:15:24) Allie discusses her process of revising the query letter, including feedback from friends and an editor, and the changes she made. The query letter (00:20:22) Discussion on the effectiveness of the query letter's opening and structure, focusing on the emotional impact and the feedback received. First page of the manuscript (00:21:44) Analysis and feedback on the opening page of the manuscript, highlighting its grounding effect and the portrayal of the character and setting. Writing process and first draft (00:24:04) Discussion about the unique experience of the book's creation, the absence of significant revisions, and the influence of personal connection and understanding of the material on the first draft. Genre and target audience (00:35:28) Challenges in defining the genre and target audience for the book, particularly in conveying the blend of fantasy and imagined scientific systems, and the potential for pitching to adult audiences. Rejection and perseverance (00:34:15) Acknowledgment of the emotional impact of rejections and the importance of perseverance, as well as the advice on finding rewards in the process and maintaining determination. Pitching and query letter adjustments (00:38:05) Consideration of pitching the book as adult fantasy and the potential adjustments for the query letter to cater to an adult audience without compromising the narrative drive. Author's website and future queries (00:39:25) Advice for Writers (00:41:49) Allie shares her advice for aspiring writers, emphasizing the joy of writing and the importance of perseverance. Touching Moments (00:44:03) Allie recounts a touching moment when her husband was moved by a part of her first book, emphasizing the impact of writing on loved ones.

Today's Christian YA fantasy author interview with Glen Gabel was very interesting. He is a screenwriter and author who recently published his debut YA fantasy novel, The Soothsayer. Although his work is not strictly Christian, it does have elements from the Bible and Gaelic Mythology. He graduated from the University of Southern California, worked as a production assistant under Joss Whedon at Mutant Enemy/ Fox, and later worked as a professional copyeditor. Today, we are talking about the differences between being a screenwriter and a novelist and world-building when pulling inspiration from things like the Bible and Gaelic folklore. If you would like to follow him, you can check out his website https://glengabel.com/ If you would like to purchase his book City of Bridges https://amzn.to/48t8PJs and Death Wave Chronicles https://amzn.to/47dQpLI ACR Services Mentioned in this episode include: Voracious Readers Only https://voraciousreadersonly.com/ Book Sirens https://booksirens.com/ Hidden Gems Books https://www.hiddengemsbooks.com/ If you enjoyed listening to this episode, you may enjoy listening to Writing Fantasy with Chelle Cypress: Unmasking the Curse - https://open.spotify.com/episode/2egh5gNfVw3GsQfIVsw0Dt?si=07b574a8fb7b4409 If you are interested in being a guest on my podcast, you may fill out the form on my website: http://authorsalcove.com/be-a-guest You can also follow me on: Facebook: http://facebook.com/authorsalcove Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/authorsalcovepodcast/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agnes-wolfe-20bb47288/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2EQYPBl1LtZh08qCdIRHTy?si=aa56d7a9565a49fa YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWVCbL470bDCgeg23kziYAg (possible affiliate links above) --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/authorsalcove/message

In this episode, Dialogue Doctor Coach sits down with fantasy author Mark August to talk about writing a big cast with multiple points-of-view. Laura and Mark talk about introducing lots of characters, Laura breaks down how to introduce a lot of characters, letting us know who is in the scene, and getting characters talking right away. To find more of Mark's work, go to https://readmarkaugust.com/books/ For more on writing dialogue, check out https://dialoguedoctor.com/

Kristof Morrow is an author of the fantasy novel The Second Sun. We talk about tourette syndrome, sobriety, writing, self-promotion, comedy, his book The Second Sun, forstering creativity, inspiring yourself to write, the importance of learning history, words, poetry, the value of art in society, gender equality, and more. Links and shownotes are at https://www.paultrammell.com/dream-chasers-and-eccentrics

How do you write fantasy fiction? Get an iPad and start typing! Seriously…David "D. L." Jennings is a fourteen-year veteran of the United States Air Force, and finished writing his debut novel, Gift of the Shaper while serving on his ninth combat tour by typing over 100,000 words on his iPad. A voracious reader, Jennings tells us how it happened and what to expect from this trilogy. To get started reading D.L. Jennings start with Gift of the Shaper: Book One of the HIGHGLADE Series https://a.co/d/8J86mxg. For more about D.L. Jennings www.dl-jennings.com and follow him on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dl.jennings. For more about becoming a published author take our Author Adventure Quiz at https://olearypublishing.com/. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/olearypublishing/message

LC Conn, author of Realm of Dragons, shares her writing process and the imaginative world of dragons. She also shares her publishing journey and how she found the perfect publisher. If you are interested in checking out her other works, you can find them here, and if you are interested in purchasing Realm of Dragons (which I recommend), you can find it here. If you liked this episode, please like, subscribe, and leave a comment. If you want to be a guest on my podcast, fill out this form.  Follow me on Facebook. Affiliate links above --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/authorsalcove/message

In this Mega Podcast episode I reconnect with my cousin Micah and his wife Lydia. I haven't seen him in over a decade. He shares his testimony about how God removed a deadly tumor from his abdomen when he was three years old. I was only a teenager but I remember how we all gathered and prayed for him and how the tumor just disappeared! We talk about writing fantasy novels and the struggles of staying motivated and finding our purpose. I share with him inspiring works from Steven Pressfield (The War of Art) and inspiring quotes from Jordan Peterson, The Rock, Joe Rogan, and Mike Tyson.We also consider how the dopamine rush from gaming and social media is what keeps men from accomplishing their goals. I share how I quit gaming and the long term positive effects it had on my productivity.#keepbeingawesome #megapodcast #warofart #inspirational #iquitgaming #iquit #writing #notgospelstudios #notgospel 

Join us as we unravel the creative process behind author Freya Marske's queer historical fantasy series, The Last Binding in this wide-ranging chat with guest host, Jo Riccioni. Freya guides us through her unique magic system, based on the concept of 'cradling', inspired by an activity she loved as a child. She further explores the underlying inequalities and social assumptions embedded in her magic system and gives us a peek behind the curtains on how she developed her characters Edwin and Robin, and the intricacies of their magical romance. Freya address the pressures of meeting publisher deadlines and the industry's expectation of fantasy and romance writers to produce multiple books annually. She offers an insightful glimpse into her own experiences, sharing how she maintained her schedule for her trilogy and the sense of wish-fulfillment she discovered during the pandemic. Finally, we discuss the evolving publishing industry and the recent market trends. The episode looks into the trend of genre mashing and its implications for authors trying to make a mark. We also touch upon the challenges of deciding between writing a romance or fantasy series and how to market oneself as an author. Also, tune in to our conversation about the impact of self-published books on traditional publishing. Lastly, we chat about the inspiration behind transforming a standalone book into a series and the books and authors that have influenced Freya's writing journey. Don't miss this enriching conversation with one of the most exciting voices in fantasy literature today. Episode Chapters 0:00:00 - Historical Fantasy and Writing a Series 0:06:21 - Plotting a Romance Fantasy Series 0:19:38 - Writing a Book Series 0:30:44 - Navigating Genre and Market Trends 0:41:09 - Influences and Writing Approach 0:53:26 - Science Fiction, Horror, and Fairy Tales   SHOW NOTES: Writes4Women www.writes4women.com Facebook @writes4women Twitter / Instagram @w4wpodcast   W4W Patreon https://www.writes4women.com/support-us-on-patreon   Freya Markse Website: click here Instagram: click here   Jo Riccioni Website: click here Instagram: click here Facebook: click here   Pamela Cook www.pamelacook.com.au Facebook: click here Twitter: click here  Instagram: click here   This episode produced by Pamela Cook for Writes4Women.    Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/writes4women?fan_landing=trueSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode we're going to deviate a bit from the usual focus on fiction to talk about writing for tabletop roleplaying games and related media. RPGs have always been deeply interconnected with fantasy, sci-fi, and horror, and right now they are more popular and prevalent than ever before. James L. Sutter co-created the lore and story-rich fantasy RPG PATHFINDER for Paizo Publishing, which has become one of the most popular roleplaying games in the world. He then took the role of Creative Director on STARFINDER, a science-fantasy RPG that reimagined the world of Pathfinder in a space-faring future. Along the way, he's written Pathfinder tie-in novels DEATH'S HERETIC and THE REDEMPTION ENGINE, RPG adventures and source books for Pathfinder, Starfinder, and Dungeons & Dragons, and a large body of short fiction, comics, and video games. His latest book, DARKHEARTS, is a departure from genre fiction—a young adult romance about estranged bandmates that must reconcile the loss of their best friend, and their unexpected attraction to each other. DARKHEARTS is available now from Wednesday Books: Amazon »  Bookshop »  » Some of the links above are affiliate links. Using them helps support this site and creator. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. I am an affiliate of Bookshop.org and I will earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase. All of the RPG work previously mentioned is available at your local game store, or wherever books are sold: Pathfinder (1st Edition) Core Rulebook »  Starfinder Core Rulebook »  Pathfinder Tales: Death's Heretic »  Pathfinder Tales: The Redemption Engine »  About James L. Sutter James L. Sutter is a co-creator of the Pathfinder and Starfinder Roleplaying Games. From 2004 to 2017, he worked for Paizo Publishing, starting out as an editor on Dungeon Magazine, moving on to do foundational work for Pathfinder, and eventually becoming the Creative Director in charge of launching Starfinder, as well as the Executive Editor of the Pathfinder Tales novel line for Paizo and Tor. James is also the author of the young adult romance novel Darkhearts, as well as the fantasy novels Death's Heretic—a finalist for the Compton Crook Award for Best First Novel—and The Redemption Engine, which won the 2015 Scribe Award for Best Original Speculative Novel. His short stories have appeared in such venues as Nightmare, The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, Beneath Ceaseless Skies, Escape Pod, and the #1 Amazon best-seller Machine of Death. In addition, he's written comic books, essays in venues like Clarkesworld and Lightspeed: Queers Destroy Science Fiction, a wealth of tabletop gaming material, and video games. When not writing, James has performed with musical acts ranging from metalcore to musical theater. He lives in Seattle. Website  Instagram  Twitter  Amazon Profile »  Goodreads Profile 

Do you have a recommendation for a guest on the show? Want more of a particular direction of guests? Drop me a line at hank.garner@dabblewriter.com and let me know! Join us at our YouTube channel to join in LIVE for upcoming author interviews!  https://tinyurl.com/dabbleyoutube The Olympian Affair (The Cinder Spires Book 2) Jim Butcher is the author of the Dresden Files, the Codex Alera, and a new steampunk series, the Cinder Spires. His resume includes a laundry list of skills which were useful a couple of centuries ago, and he plays guitar quite badly. An avid gamer, he plays tabletop games in varying systems, a variety of video games on PC and console, and LARPs whenever he can make time for it. Jim currently resides mostly inside his own head, but his head can generally be found in the mountains outside Denver, Colorado. Jim goes by the moniker Longshot in a number of online locales. He came by this name in the early 1990's when he decided he would become a published author. Usually only 3 in 1000 who make such an attempt actually manage to become published; of those, only 1 in 10 make enough money to call it a living. The sale of a second series was the breakthrough that let him beat the long odds against attaining a career as a novelist. All the same, he refuses to change his nickname.

Do you have a recommendation for a guest on the show? Want more of a particular direction of guests? Drop me a line at hank.garner@dabblewriter.com and let me know! Join us at our YouTube channel to join in LIVE for upcoming author interviews!  https://tinyurl.com/dabbleyoutube The Olympian Affair (The Cinder Spires Book 2) Jim Butcher is the author of the Dresden Files, the Codex Alera, and a new steampunk series, the Cinder Spires. His resume includes a laundry list of skills which were useful a couple of centuries ago, and he plays guitar quite badly. An avid gamer, he plays tabletop games in varying systems, a variety of video games on PC and console, and LARPs whenever he can make time for it. Jim currently resides mostly inside his own head, but his head can generally be found in the mountains outside Denver, Colorado. Jim goes by the moniker Longshot in a number of online locales. He came by this name in the early 1990's when he decided he would become a published author. Usually only 3 in 1000 who make such an attempt actually manage to become published; of those, only 1 in 10 make enough money to call it a living. The sale of a second series was the breakthrough that let him beat the long odds against attaining a career as a novelist. All the same, he refuses to change his nickname. When you click a link on our site, it might just be a magical portal (aka an affiliate link). We're passionate about only sharing the treasures we truly believe in. Every purchase made from our links not only supports Dabble but also the marvelous authors and creators we showcase, at no additional cost to you.

Greta Kelly returns to Fictitious to talk about her new fantasy novel, THE QUEEN OF DAYS. We discuss its origin as a NaNoWriMo project, developing a tightly-contained fantasy setting, and maintaining emotional drama in a fast-paced heist story. THE QUEEN OF DAYS is breakneck-paced fantasy adventure coming October 24th from Harper Voyager. Order it now at: Amazon » Bookshop » Publisher Site » Some of the links above are affiliate links. Using them helps support this site and its writers. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. I am an affiliate of Bookshop.org and I will earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase. About Greta Kelly Greta K. Kelly is (probably) not a witch, death or otherwise, but she can still be summoned with offerings of too-beautiful-to-use journals and Butterfingers candy. She currently lives in Wisconsin with her husband EJ, daughters Lorelei and Nadia who are doing their level-best to take over the world. Follow Greta Kelly Website Instagram Twitter Goodreads Amazon profile » About THE QUEEN OF DAYS From Greta Kelly, the author of the Warrior Witch duology, comes The Queen of Days, an epic adventure that weaves together a flawed-but-lovable family of thieves, a battle between fallen gods, and stakes high enough to cause vertigo—perfect for fans of The Lies of Locke Lamora and Six of Crows. For Balthazar and his family of thieves, stealing a statue during the annual celebration of the god Karanis was just a good bit of fun…or a way to stick it to the governor who murdered his parents. And yeah, the small fortune in reward doesn't hurt—even if his boss also hired the mysterious Queen of Days to join the crew as “the weapon of last resort…” Whatever that means. But Bal doesn't know the ceremony isn't simply empty words and dusty tradition; it's true magic. The kind of magic that rips open a portal for the god himself. Only the idol that Karanis planned on using for a body now lies broken at the Queen of Days' feet. And half of it is missing. With the aid of a lovable brawler, a society lady turned bomb maker, a disgraced soldier, and a time-eating demon, Bal must hunt down the missing half of the statue if he has any hope of earning his money, keeping his crew alive…and perhaps even saving all of humanity. But as his journey sends him racing through the city—and across realities—he discovers that doing all this might just doom the city. The city be damned. It's time to kill a god.  

Bestselling fantasy writer Samantha Shannon on dealing with early success, plotting a seven-book series and keeping anxiety at bay.*ABOUT SAMANTHA SHANNONSamantha Shannon is a New York Times and Sunday Times bestselling author of The Bone Season and The Priory of the Orange Tree. *LINKS FROM THE SHOWAsk Shannon questions on her TumblrShannon on Instagram @say_shannonThe Bone Season seriesThe Priory of the Orange TreeFor show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.comFor free writing sessions, join free Writers' Hours: writershour.com*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS' SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you're enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

The Writers Advice Podcast is bought to you by Booksprout. Booksprout is my go-to platform to share my stories with readers to engage with reviewers before they are launched with the rest of the world. Head to booksprout to increase your online reviews today! Or start reading my YA dystopian series through booksprout now! This week on the Writers Advice Podcast I am joined by the wonderful Fantasy Romance Author, Jenny Hickman. On this episode Jenny and I talk about: - Her growing career from where it started to now. - Falling in love with and writing romance. - Fairytale Retellings - Traditional vs Self Publishing - The reality of the business of wiring -A sneak peak of her new release -Her writing schedule - And all her advice for writers Check out all of Jenny's books here Grab a copy of my Shadow & Shifter Series here JOIN THE WRITERS ADVICE FACEBOOK GROUP Become a part of my ARC TEAM HERE To Contact Jenny:Website: jennyhickman.comInstagram: @authorjennyhickman To Contact Me:Website: oliviahillier.comInstagram: @oliviahillierauthor

Matt Wallace talks about his epic fantasy trilogy, THE SAVAGE REBELLION — which includes SAVAGE NATION, SAVAGE BOUNTY, and SAVAGE CROWNS, all available now from Saga Press. We discuss the series's examination of empire, historical influences, impact of sensitivity readers, and challenging editorial process. Savage Legion Amazon » Savage Bounty Amazon » Bookshop » Savage Crowns Amazon » Bookshop » » Some of these are affiliate links. Using them supports the channel, at no additional cost to you! Whenever possible, though, I encourage you to purchase from your local bookstores.  About Matt Wallace Matt Wallace is a retired professional wrestler and the author of the Sin du Jour novella series (Tor.com Publishing), the Savage Rebellion Trilogy (Saga Press/Gallery Books), and the middle grade novels BUMP, THE SUPERVILLAIN'S GUIDE TO BEING A FAT KID, and NOWHERE SPECIAL (Katherine Tegen Books). In 2018, alongside co-host Mur Lafferty, he took home the Hugo Award for their podcast, Ditch Diggers. In addition to writing for several television series, Matt has also done extensive narrative work on video game titles for publishers such as inXile Entertainment. He currently resides in Los Angeles with his wife, Nikki. Follow Matt Wallace Website Twitter Instagram Goodreads Amazon Profile » About SAVAGE NATION They call them Savages. Brutal. Efficient. Expendable. The empire relies on them. The Savages are the greatest weapon they ever developed. Culled from the streets of their cities, they take the ones no one will miss and throw them, by the thousands, at the empire's enemies. If they live, they fight again. If they die, there are always more to take their place. Evie is not a Savage. She's a warrior with a mission: to find the man she once loved, the man who holds the key to exposing the secret of the Savage Legion and ending the mass conscription of the empire's poor and wretched. But to find him, she must become one of them, to be marked in her blood, to fight in their wars, and to find her purpose. Evie will die a Savage if she has to, but not before showing the world who she really is and what the Savage Legion can really do. About SAVAGE BOUNTY A war has begun. Savages, the empire's most valuable resource, have been thrown at their captors' enemies long enough. If their rebellion succeeds, it will undo a nation. At the helm of this Savage uprising is Evie, the Sparrow General. It isn't a title she asked for or particularly wants, but she is the last hope for several peoples at the edge of extinction. Back in the empire's city seat, Dyeawan, a brilliant young strategist plucked from the streets, must risk her life to maintain her newfound authority. And Lexi has finally taken control of the guild built by her family, but she finds herself at the heart of a sinister power play that could tear apart society as she knows it. Meanwhile, Lexi's loyal retainer, Taru, has been conscripted into the legion of Savages still under the empire's control. These four individuals hold the fate of the world in their hands. But even if they survive their missions, they may find themselves at odds with one another. About SAVAGE CROWNS The final war for the nation of Crache has begun. At the helm of the people's rebellion is Evie, the Sparrow General. She has been captured by the Skrian, Crache's vicious army, and is being brought back to the Capitol for punishment. But reinforcements are coming for her. Dyeawan, who has climbed from street urchin to Crache's highest seat of power through clever schemes and ruthless bloodshed, finds trouble on every front once she arrives. The rebellion approaches, and there are whispers of a martyr within the city who holds enough sway to stage a coup. If she doesn't act quickly, her rule will be short-lived. As the women who hold the nation's future meet each other from different sides of the battlefield, will they be able to find a shared vision of Crache, or will they destroy each other first?

I've had a lot of specialists on the podcast in recent months but it occurred to me that I've never really reflected on my own experiences as a lawyer and how that can be applied to writing.When I got to pondering I realised I draw upon these experiences an awful lot. And it was then I began to appreciate just how much scope there is to inject your stories and worlds with conflict.So in this episode, I reflect upon my time working as an accident and injury lawyer. I discuss the impact that injuries can have on a person, from minor ones to major ones, and how you can utilise these ill-used details in your stories, both from a character creation perspective and a worldbuilding one. If you have any questions or requests, please write to us at thefantasywriterstoolshed@gmail.comJOIN OUR WRITING COMMUNITYTo join our writing group as well as access exclusive interviews, discussions, fantasy writing classes, books and more head over to our Patreon page - https://www.patreon.com/TheFantasyWritersToolshed Sounds and editing by Odysy - https://www.youtube.com/c/Odysyx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A few years ago, Jake R C Wells was in the classroom, teaching post-secondary physics classes. But these days, instead of concentrating on the science of the physical world, he's creating new worlds with his imagination. Wells is an author, and his debut novel - Crimsonheart Chronicles: The Tale of Enlightenment - came out earlier this summer.

Jeff Wheeler took an early retirement from his career at Intel in 2014 to write full-time. He is a husband, father of five, and a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Jeff lives in the Rocky Mountains. His books have been on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list 6 times (for The Thief's Daughter, The King's Traitor, The Hollow Crown, The Silent Shield, Prism Cloud, and Knight's Ransom) and have sold more than 5 million copies. His novels have also been published or will be published in many languages: Italian, Chinese, Hungarian, Turkish, Polish, Spanish, Russian, and German. He was the founder of Deep Magic: the E-zine of Clean Fantasy and Science Fiction (www.deepmagic.co), a publication that ran from 2002-2006 and 2016-2021. He's also a founding author at BingeBooks. You can usually find Jeff at Emerald City Comic Con, New York Comic Con or at writers conferences like Storymakers and Teen Author Boot Camp. He welcomes hearing from readers: jeff /at/ jeff-wheeler dot com If you are interested in purchasing signed copies of his books for friends, family, or your own collection, please e-mail: WOJWbooks /at/ gmail dot com

Jeff Wheeler took an early retirement from his career at Intel in 2014 to write full-time. He is a husband, father of five, and a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Jeff lives in the Rocky Mountains. His books have been on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list 6 times (for The Thief's Daughter, The King's Traitor, The Hollow Crown, The Silent Shield, Prism Cloud, and Knight's Ransom) and have sold more than 5 million copies. His novels have also been published or will be published in many languages: Italian, Chinese, Hungarian, Turkish, Polish, Spanish, Russian, and German. He was the founder of Deep Magic: the E-zine of Clean Fantasy and Science Fiction (www.deepmagic.co), a publication that ran from 2002-2006 and 2016-2021. He's also a founding author at BingeBooks. You can usually find Jeff at Emerald City Comic Con, New York Comic Con or at writers conferences like Storymakers and Teen Author Boot Camp. He welcomes hearing from readers: jeff /at/ jeff-wheeler dot com If you are interested in purchasing signed copies of his books for friends, family, or your own collection, please e-mail: WOJWbooks /at/ gmail dot com

Hi! Welcome to this episode of Authors in Focus Podcast. I'm James Reid, a fantasy author publishing as JMD Reid. This podcast is all about getting to know writers, their books, and what makes them tick. We all have a … Continue reading → The post Writing Fantasy with Your Spouse with Brendan & Lori O'Gara: Authors in Focus episode 181 appeared first on Fantasy/Sci-Fi Focus.

Hi! Welcome to this episode of Authors in Focus Podcast. I'm James Reid, a fantasy author publishing as JMD Reid. This podcast is all about getting to know writers, their books, and what makes them tick. We all have a … Continue reading → The post Writing Fantasy Romance with a Co-Author with Amanda Muratoff: Authors in Focus episode 180 appeared first on Fantasy/Sci-Fi Focus.

In this episode we talk all about world building for fantasy! Beck explains how she came up with the characters from Divine Blood, breaking the traditional mold of a female main character, and how impactful all the guardians are. We discuss how expansive her world is, and ask 'was it always going to be like this?' and further talk about how things can change in your story! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/novelboundpodcast/support

Gregory Maguire, best known for writing Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, shares his latest book, Cress Watercress. Listen as Gregory shares why he loves writing fantasy and especially loves sharing his stories with children. Learn more about Gregory here: https://gregorymaguire.com/ (https://gregorymaguire.com/) LIMElight with Jessie is part of the WGRT 102.3 FM Podcast Network. For the latest episodes of all of our featured podcasts, visit our website here: https://wgrt-1023-fm-podcast-network.captivate.fm/ (https://wgrt-1023-fm-podcast-network.captivate.fm) WGRT's LIMElight with Jessie is produced by the following team members: Executive Producer: Jessie Wiegand Audio Engineer: George James Administrator: Jessie Wiegand Marketing: Jessie Wiegand Follow Jessie on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/wgrt_jessie/ (https://www.instagram.com/wgrt_jessie/)

Opportunities come when you sit down and start something. That is one of the biggest lessons I have learned from doing this podcast and from starting a business. That is also one of the biggest takeaways I have from this interview and the guest that we have today.Brian Rathbone is a professional fantasy author who has successfully navigated a pathway to growing his audience and selling his books across multiple platforms and mediums. To put it simply, he has hacked the book publishing industry.I have been trying to have an author on the show for a while and I was delighted when I met brian and came to learn he was dnd nerd...who just happened to have written a top-selling fantasy series, The World of Godsland. He now helps other authors and publishers figure out what they want out of writing their books helps them make a plan to achieve those goals.His career as a professional writer has taken him and his business to many different places, which is part of why I am so excited to have him on.You can get Brians Books for free following the link below:Call of the HeraldFollow Brian on Twitter: @BrianRathboneBusiness RPG is a business podcast for nerds who are determined to turn their passion into a profession. Follow me on Instagram @BuisnessRPG. Connect with me on Linkedin here. Email me sir.isaac.smith@gmail.comLearn how to become a Podcast Producer  from my teachers at Podcast Production School use my affiliate link hereFollow my store hereBusiness RPG is business podcast for nerds who still dont know what they want to be when they grow up. Follow me on Instagram @BuisnessRPG. Connect with me on Linkedin here. Email me sir.isaac.smith@gmail.comMusic: NEW HORIZONS by Lesion X | https://soundcloud.com/lesionxbeatsMusic promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.comCreative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported Licensehttps://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_USb

Omar Sakr is the author of two acclaimed poetry collections, These Wild Houses and The Lost Arabs. Son of Sin is his first novel, and in this interview we also find our about his forthcoming poetry collection and a possible fantasy book on the horizon. The Lost Arabs won the 2020 Prime Minister's Literary Award for Poetry and was shortlisted for the NSW Premier's Literary Award, the John Bray Poetry Award, the Judith Wright Calanthe Award, and the Colin Roderick Award.  Omar is a widely published essayist and editor whose work has been translated into Arabic and Spanish.  If you enjoy this interview, listen to Omar's first interview on The Garret from 2020. About The Garret Read the transcript of this interview at thegarretpodcast.com. You can also follow The Garret on Twitter and Instagram, or follow our host Astrid Edwards on Twitter or Instagram. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Kate and Ali talk writing in the fantasy genre and the many changing subgenres of fantasy. They are joined by guest Daniela A. MeraFind out more about Daniela A. Mera!Join the community in the Indies Fully Booked Facebook group!You can find Ali at akmulford.com and Kate at kellemorrison.com!Watch the Uncut Intros on Youtube!Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please consider rating and reviewing!Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ifbpodcast)

The New York Times bestselling author, Anthony Ryan, joins the Am Writing Fantasy podcast for a discussion with Jesper about fantasy writing, publishing, and marketing books in today's publishing landscape.   Find Ryan's books here: https://anthonyryan.net/   Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.  Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). 0 (2s): You're listening to The Am. Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Jesper (30s): Hello, I'm Jesper. And this is episode 154 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And Autumn is putting the finishing touches on editing our next novel today. So instead I'm joined by a New York times bestselling author, Anthony Ryan. And normally when I do these interviews, I have like a massive time difference, Anthony, but not today because I think you're in the UK or something. Is that right? Anthony (58s): Yes. Almost instantaneous. Jesper (1m 4s): Yeah. And it's, and there's even light outside my window today, which I'm not used to when I do podcast recordings, but you are you're from Scotland originally. Is that right Anthony (1m 17s): Originally? Yes, I don't sound Scottish, but I was born then spent most of my childhood there. Jesper (1m 24s): I would actually love to visit Scotland one day. I've been to the London and stuff like that multiple times, but I've never been to Scotland and it's just like the scenery there. It's, it's almost a bit fantasy inspiring sometimes. Isn't it? Anthony (1m 39s): It is obviously if you, if you grow up there, you have a different view of things. You don't know you growing up in it, you know, I see landscape the, yeah. Obviously, you know, as a true Scott, I recommend everyone should go to Scotland at least one. Jesper (2m 1s): Yeah. I would really love to go one day, but perhaps before we sort of get started for real here, maybe you could just share a few words about yourself, Anthony, and just talk a bit about what you're writing and maybe how you got into writing. And so on Anthony (2m 17s): Anthony Ryan, the also the raping shadow trilogy, the cottage Memorial, Trelegy blatantly the covenant of steel, excuse my most recent work and I, which is what I'm currently working on. I got published. I self published back in 20 11, 20 12 and was persuaded to go the traditional route when my first novel blood song took off and been a full-time author since the end of 2012. So yeah, this is what I always wanted to do. Anthony (2m 57s): And I consider myself really to be able to make a living doing what I love to do. Jesper (3m 4s): Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. So you have, you have some stuff that you publish and some stuff that is traditional puppets. Is that still the case today? Anthony (3m 14s): Yes. I don't do that much self publishing these days. It's usually one or two things a year, if that, and it's usually a short work, it's a novella or short story or something like that. Full length works with pretty much always traditionally published these days. And to be honest, given the time and I'm sure, you know, better than I do the time it takes to do self publishing. Well, it's a lot of time. It's a lot of efforts to do it properly. And frankly, that was the time to do all sort of being traditionally published for the most part. Anthony (3m 55s): It suits me quite well. Jesper (3m 59s): Right. And you're with penguin IO Anthony (4m 2s): These days is mostly all wet, a little and brown, I believe, but I'm still, you know, technically published by a switch is part of a penguin. So, you know, it's a thing with traditional publishing. You can be a bit confusing with all the different contracts and everything, but I don't think meters care that much, you know, you publish your next book. So yeah. Yeah. Well, within the national publishers as well, got a lot of different contracts and things with various different publishers around the world can be a bit hard to keep track of them all. Jesper (4m 45s): Yeah. But then coming from a situation where you have experience with both the traditional side of publishing, but as well as some self publishing, what would you, sorry? Well, you touched upon this slightly there, but what would you say is the pros and cons of each of those two approaches? If somebody is sort of listening to this and debating, should I do one or the other? Anthony (5m 8s): Well, it's weird. I think the advantages of self publishing are the disadvantages of self publishing of the same things. The advantages are you have to do everything. You know, you do everything yourself. You have complete control over everything. The disadvantages are, you do everything yourself and you have complete control over everything. So, you know, it's, it's a lot of work basically to self publish. We're new at officially published. You will have an editor who works for a publisher. Who's a professional editor. You won't have to hire them yourself, which can be very, probably the most expensive part of the process for self publisher. Anthony (5m 48s): Especially if you're starting out, you know, a professional editor doesn't come cheap. And if you're writing epic fantasy, I mean, and the charge by the word, I mean, typically in the 200,000 word range, paying somebody a word by word basis to edit one of my novels. That's a lot of money would be very expensive for me. So publish as well as very time consuming. But you do, I think with self publishing, you do get control over the control you get. I know we'd be telling you attractive for a lot of people. If you know, I'm a bit of a control freak, I'm not too bad, but I can't be obsessive about details. Anthony (6m 33s): And if you're that kind of person, self publishing is probably going to see it quite well, especially when it comes to cameras and cover design and you know, book descriptions and all that kind of thing. So yes, the advantages are that say are the same as a disadvantage, it's all on you. Or you either do it all yourself or you pay people to do it when you're traditionally published. Some of the burden is taken off you because you're not paying for you are an editor, a cover designer and all of the, Jesper (7m 6s): Yeah. And I'm also thinking maybe what about reread with gods to the editing itself? I mean, of course when you are self publishing, you, as you said, you hire the editor and basically you can just decide what to ignore, what to agree to, whatever, whenever the editor tells you something, but with the traditional publishing, is it more in your experience that you have to more accept what the editor is pushing on you? Or can you still, do you still have the freedom to say like, like, no, that's not going to, I'm not going to change this or that. Anthony (7m 40s): Unfortunately, I've never got to the point where I vehemently disagreed with us in the editors have told me there is a back and forth and other things we don't, you know, sort of mindless things don't always agree with when it comes to word choice, you know, cutting smaller scenes or something like that. But there have been times when I've been asked to do more substantial rewrites and others, some books don't require a lot of work at the editing stage and others do I take the view that these are professional people who've been doing this for entire life and it would be foolish of me to ignore their advice. Anthony (8m 22s): If I ever got to the point where it is vehemently disagreed with what they were asking me to do, I would say, so we did have a discussion, but you know, as of yet, it hasn't come up where it really just completely at loggerheads and can't reach an agreement. I don't know what would happen if we got to that point, you know, contractually, you know, they can reject the book and then they want to have advanced back. We haven't asked, but yeah, that's, that's always the nuclear option, but it it's extremely, rather than the publishing world, you know, for that to happen, you know, it can happen sometimes when you get controversial figures, who've been given large Southerns to write a memoir or something. Anthony (9m 10s): And, you know, especially with the insist on not having a ghost writer. Oh yeah. I've heard stories of people submitting manuscripts that were just unreadable tripe, and then wondering why the, you want to do advance back can happen. But yeah, when it comes to professional writers, people who wrote fiction for a living, it's very, very rare. And as yet, luckily for me as it come on, hopefully no. Jesper (9m 39s): Yeah, no, I agree. And of course it's also a matter of, I mean, of course some editors could be difficult to work with, but so could some authors, right? It could also sometimes be the author who just makes a big deal out of something where the editor might be actually quite fair in what they're asking Anthony (9m 56s): And I'm never going to nitpick over commerce or, you know, stuff like the semi-colons in the wrong place of don't get excited about that. You know, when it comes to, you know, the overall arch arc of the plot and stuff like that, it's, you know, it's pretty rare for them to have a problem with it. In my book, there's been a few things about have, by my own admission, I've gone down the wrong route. I've gotten down a kind of blind alley when it comes to plus and tried to get over and being a bit too convoluted. A good editor will point that out. Anthony (10m 37s): They don't. Yeah. They don't come back and say, oh my God, this is a pile of crap. Where was wrong with you? You get what's called the compliment sandwich. The first paragraph is, oh, this is really great and so on. But the second paragraph is now here's some things I think needs some work. And then the third paragraph is once again, and this is really great novel and I look forward to publishing it. So they always bracket where they actually want to tell you, it's some nice words, sweeten the bell. Yeah. Jesper (11m 9s): But what does your actual writing process look like? Anthony (11m 14s): What I'm writing on right. Every day I rarely have days off. And my thing has to do with when life just gets in the way. So I will, if I have a doctor's appointment or something, or have to do something with family, then, then I'll, you know, I will take time off. But when I'm actually working on book, most of the time I write every day, don't actually produce a huge amount of words on a daily basis. But because I write every day because I'm consistent, you know, it looks from the outside, like I'm quite prolific and I've have reached at least one book a year for the last 10 years, which is a bad, I'm not actually that fast. Anthony (11m 58s): Right. But I haven't consistent. My average word count in these days is about 1200 words a day, but I'm doing the thing where, you know, I use Scribner as my main writing program. And it has, it tells you how many words a day you need to do to reach you or a word goal by a certain date. And these days they just tend to stick to that. And long as you're consistent, as long as you speak to it, it works. Yeah. I don't do a lot of, you know, actually sitting in front of the computer and actual time spent sitting in front of your computer. Anthony (12m 40s): Writing is relatively minimal, but I do do a lot of pacing around my living room. And you know, I remember Stephen fried at the British, you know, comedian and author. He said that writing consists mostly of making coffee for me, even though I drink tea rather than coffee, there's a certain amount of truth in that. There's a lot of things. Jesper (13m 7s): Yeah. I was, I was myself through a, maybe I could call it an experiment, but quite recently, over the last six months, I, because I I'm also at the place short of where you are. I, I, I tend to, I don't really count my word count, but I, I write half a chapter a day because I feel like that's what I can get done in maybe about two hours. And in two hours after that, I feel like my creativity really goes down. But then I heard a lot about many authors who like, are really prolific, you know, the people who write like 5,000 words a day and stuff like that. So I thought like, let me try that. And then I tried to look into all the stuff that they did to increase their word count. Jesper (13m 50s): And I really, you know, pushed myself. And I just came to the realization after a while. I probably tried it for like two, three months. And then by the end of it, I was like, I don't enjoy this anymore. You know, I want to take my time with it. I want to sort of think about what I'm writing. I don't want to just plow ahead. I don't know, for me, it just, it, it moved, removed all the enjoyment of the writing process to try to do it faster. So yeah, Anthony (14m 22s): And also just might be mundane, but I'm not getting any younger. My hands I've typed a lot of words in my life. And after a while it hurts and I don't get on well with dictation software or anything like that. I don't write long hand fast enough to write that. Well, you know, I can write 85 words a minute long hand write eight. So just say my hands are quite happy to not trying to do the 5,000 words a day saying if you can great, if you comfortable for you, good for you. Anthony (15m 5s): You know, but I think probably done photos in words once in a day when I was running up against deadline and it wasn't fun. It definitely would. Jesper (15m 18s): No, I mean, I think when speaking about writing processes, it is really about finding your own sort of what suits you. Of course. I mean, of course, if you have like physical things, like your hands are hurting, then you have to respect that. But, but more in general, I mean that some people enjoy writing fast, other peoples don't. And I think it's actually good in my view to try to experiment with different approaches when you're starting out to figure out what works for you, but then something will probably be something you prefer versus something else. Anthony (15m 48s): Definitely. I think there's no one size fits all when it comes to writing, you have to find it. Yeah. You have to experiment, find what works for you. And I think a lot of people do read whatever their favorite writing book is. Stephen King's on writing or, you know, save the cat or wherever it is and the bank, well, Stephen King writes 2000 words a day. Therefore I must write 2000 words a day. If you've never done that, it's a big ask. You know, it's a big thing to do if you're just not used to it. So, you know, my advice for novice writers is to find your comfort zone and actually embrace the comfort zone. Anthony (16m 32s): Don't try and push yourself too much because what you're doing is difficult. And a lot of the time, especially with people who have jobs, they have families, it's carving out the time. You need to write it, come easy. All you can manage your day is half an hour and you do 500 words by 500 words a day adds up to love words after a year. But yeah, find, find your own comfort zone. Embrace. Not all. We'll give you at least a benchmark to, you know, you know how to push it. You know, you know, if you need to do more, whoever reason then you'll know just how much more you need to do, but tends to be what I tell them. Anthony (17m 15s): Younger writers anyway. Jesper (17m 17s): Yeah, no, I think it's a good advice. And because of as well, the, you know, you've written for quite a while, and as you said, you've written a lot of words, but do you ever feel like when it comes to getting story ideas and so on, do you ever feel like you get stuck in the same loop with the same kind of ideas? Or how do you go about getting fresh ideas? Anthony (17m 39s): You have absolutely no problem with new ideas. To be honest, if we could turn off the idea factory in my head, I would for a while, at least, cause it was a while ago I tweeted, I had 26 books. I could probably start writing tomorrow. If I wanted to. That's probably got up to about 35 now because it just never stops. I just never stopped getting ideas. Ideas are the easy bit for me. Anyway, I'm actually coming up with stories to match the ideas. That's the hard bit, the ideas. Yeah. It's really, I don't go looking for inspiration. Anthony (18m 19s): It always finds me whether it's a television documentary or whether it's, you know, something I saw on the news or just, you know, something I'd read somewhere that I can't even remember where it all goes through my head and just comes together with ideas and they never stop. I'm probably going to shuffle off this mortal coil with a lot of books unwritten, which, and there's not a lot I can do about it. It's just the way it is. Jesper (18m 49s): No, you know, it's funny that you say that because I think when people looking to get into writing or start to write, they worry about this idea thing. But, but because I have it exactly the same way as you do. Well, you know, I have a notebook where I write down when I get ideas and just so chock-full of ideas, it's just like, I don't know. That must be 20 novels in there as well. And I will probably never get to half of them. I don't know. But, but getting ideas is like one of the favorite things that people think about a worry about in the beginning, but, and maybe don't ask some people who are finding it difficult to get ideas. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, but I have also through this podcast, talk to a lot of different authors by now. Jesper (19m 35s): And I'm yet to hear an established author say that I don't know, I can't get ideas. You know, everybody seems to be flooded with them. Maybe that's part of what makes us writers. I don't know. Anthony (19m 48s): I think it is a thing it's probably something innate to people who do this for a living or at least have the potential to do it for a living is, you know, never running out stories. So this thinking in those terms, I guess you could probably train yourself to do it if you tried hard enough, but it does seem to be something that's just innate with me. You know, even as a kid, I was remember telling the kids go stories at playtime school and Clustered around me and I just make them up on the spot, you know, quite easily. Cause ghost stories are easy, especially when you're telling kid there was a house, it had a ghost in it. Anthony (20m 33s): But yeah, in terms of getting stuck in the same ideas occurring, I'm always keen not to repeat myself. I don't want to be writing the same book over and over again. You know, another summarize have a formula, a character and series of books and those books follow a formula. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. As long as you can keep it fresh, if you're just writing the same book over and over again and you know, rubbing the serial numbers off and making it a little bit different, you know, I think that's going to get very Dallas. It get very Del for me, nevermind the reader. Anthony (21m 14s): And I think fortunately tend to have the imagination. It doesn't get stuck in a rut too much. So it does. I do tend to think outside my own as well as not every idea I get is not for a fantasy novel science fiction. It's hard crime as well. Kind of like to get around to all of those yamas at some point, if we're going to find enough time to write. Jesper (21m 40s): Yeah. Why did you decide that it was fantasy that you wanted to write originally? Anthony (21m 48s): It's just so general. It probably appeals to me more than all others and it might be my, I thought a lot about wine. I think it might be because it's essentially limitless. You can do anything with it, depending on how you construct the world making up a yeah. There's, there's nothing limiting you. You can, you're not constrained by history. You can bowl from history. And I do all the Diana I steal shamelessly from real world history because it's presenting it in the context of fantasy. It doesn't matter so much. There's no copyright on history. You can take all you want. And also you can take away all the inconvenient, messy bits, keep the good bits. Anthony (22m 32s): You know, the realities of history. History is always messier than people think it is. And it never conforms to the myths that people can't do around it in the UK at the moment, there's a lot of people spinning the stallion myths about Britain's past and prior role. You know what we did in the second world war or as my that. And it's clearly being spun by people who don't have a real grasp of what history is or what that particular history was. It's mythmaking, it's not his, but I think from a novelist point of view, especially even if you're presenting it in a fantasy context, you have to engage with the realities of, who's not the mess. Anthony (23m 20s): Otherwise it's not going to be convincing the messiness of history. I think I'd try and reflect even on quite, you know, ruthless and cutting away on the calf and just taking the exciting birds. Still have to go thinking, reflect the messiness on. Jesper (23m 37s): Yeah. And I, I also think, I mean, of course I, you know, I, as part of fantasy, I, I do of course love all your wizards and the magic and, and all that good stuff. But the other part on a more practical level is also as a fantasy author. I feel like it's because I don't want to get bucked down into research about how does this gun work or, or, you know, all those kinds of, or this particular city that the characters now go to that I've never been to. I don't want to do all that research in fantasy. I can just make it up. And that's quite wonderful. Anthony (24m 12s): Yeah. That being said, I do, I do research. I've done because my second series, a, the draconian memoria was set in that sort of industrialized world, even though it was a fantasy world, it was industrialized and they were fighting with guns rather than salts. So the defense of research on guns for that, and here's a tip for you. If you put guns or anything related to guns in YouTube, be prepared for them to bombard you with all sorts of extremist nonsense. We looked at one gun video and within a day, YouTube had decided I was a white supremacist who hated women judging both were recommending me. Anthony (24m 52s): So it's kind of staggering out the algorithms work, Jesper (25m 1s): But yeah, it's a bit scary. Anthony (25m 3s): It is. Yeah. You can see a lesson in how people get rid of medicalized. So stop recommending this to me button quite a lot now. Jesper (25m 15s): Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. It's been a few years though, but, but I, I read the waking fires some years back the waking fire and I very much enjoyed it and it has dragons in it. So that's always good. But what I, why I'm bringing that up is because we were talking a bit about Writing Fantasy and we were talking a bit about what kind of stories to write and so on. And because you have also written and published quite a lot of books, I'm wondering if you, if you see some common tropes within fantasy, that readers seems to like more than others. Jesper (25m 55s): I mean, dragons could be an example, but how do you see the success of your different books? Like, is there like commonalities that the books that has dragons in them or something else are usually more liked by readers than others? Or do you have any views on that? Anthony (26m 10s): I think some people definitely because it requires Memorial, it was guns rather than So that steam ships, you know, air ships and stuff, some people immediately assumed it was steampunk. And it kind of is. And I don't mind if people call it that, but there are people that just won't read anything. It's got steam punk attached to it and a fantasy readers. You only want the songs, even if it has dragons in it, they just want the swords, you know, the medieval setting rather than industrialized setting, which is fine each to their own, you know, but I try not to be constrained by as a writer, readers have their preferences and that's fine. Anthony (26m 51s): But for me as a writer, I do, I do want to be able to write what I want to write, you know? Yeah. And the drugs from the lawyers didn't sell as well as my other series. So it's sold reasonably well for what it is there wasn't in his big numbers because it wasn't, I think fall into what an epic fantasy series was supposed to be. You know, you're supposed to have people riding around on horses, in air ships, you're supposed to, you know, armies fighting great battles with, you know, dragons might be part, but it also supposed to be hordes of saber wielding barbarians and all of this and kind of wasn't in there. Anthony (27m 41s): But I don't think you can, or you should be constrained by redirect expectation. You should write what you want to write because you can never really anticipate what they want. You know? So it's like apple, you know, apple as a company famously doesn't do market research. It makes the things it wants to make itself. People don't know what they want and you can do it. And there's famous examples of then Coca Cola. When they came out with new Coke, they did immense amounts of research and focus groups and market research about, yes, there's definitely a market for new Coke and people want new Coke. Anthony (28m 24s): We put out new Coke, people hated it. Nobody wanted it. It was one of the biggest flops in commercial history. You can't anticipate what they want and you can't try and give them what they want. And you can only write when you write, I think at the end of the day, if it hits it hits is not alive. So you do buy that. I don't think there's anything wrong with writing to market. If you can, don't expect everyone to be a winner just because you write to a certain market. Cause you think, you know, a few years ago it was about empires and umpire romance. Anthony (29m 4s): But just because it's invoked, it doesn't mean it's going to hit for you. You can never really, there's no such thing as a shoe. If I hated in publishing or in anything else. Jesper (29m 14s): No, I fully agree with you there. There's definitely no guarantees one way or the other. And I also agree that it is incredibly important to write something you are passionate about because yeah, like we talked about writing a novel, it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort. So even a month later, you are sort of tired of the thing because it wasn't really your thing. Anyway, then you're never going to get to the end. But of course, if you can find some, some overlap between what the market or the readers want versus what you like, then that's probably a good place to focus. I would say, because at least if you look at like streaming services, Netflix and so on, they pump out the same stuff over and over and over again. Jesper (29m 59s): Right. Because readers or viewers in this case, we want what we, what we know we like, we want the same thing just in a new package. A lot of the time. I mean, when you're trying to do something that is very different. Not always, but most of the time it flops also on Netflix. Anthony (30m 19s): Yeah. I think as a creative though, you can, if you're proud of it, if you think it was good, you're, you know, you're happy with it. That's the most you can expect, you know, if it sells itself, it's great. It's really great for itself. But really from a creative point of view, you, you have to be happy with it. Otherwise what's the point for me anyway, you know, I couldn't there's certainly John was, I couldn't write in, cause I don't read them and I'm not excited about them. No. Yeah. No disrespect to romance authors, but I couldn't write a romance novel to save my life. Anthony (31m 1s): I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. Me attempting to write a romance novel would be an insult to the young, the, you know, perhaps desperate for money. And I tried it it'd be a disaster. Yeah. So I think you have to be a fan of where the genre you're writing it. And it helps if it's a commercial yarn, you know, if it's very niche, it's going to have a hard time making a living at it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't write in it, but you know, just be aware that it's, it doesn't mean that nobody owes you a living is another thing. Nobody gonna drive a dump truck up to you for DOR and give you a load of money for no apparent reason. Jesper (31m 47s): Ah, that would be nice. But given your years in the writing business, less industry here, are there some changes that you've noticed over the years? Like is there stuff that is very different now compared to what it was when you got started? Anthony (32m 9s): Yeah. The basic publishing process, the process you go through hasn't changed that much. And the contracts are, you know, they're still using pro forma contracts that say you have to provide a written typed manuscript on double spaced paper and all that it's in the contract, but nobody ever does that. You send them an email with an attachment like everybody else. But what I have noticed is, you know, an increasing embracing of digital formats by probably they seem to be taking what I would consider a more realistic approach to pricing of, of eBooks. Anthony (32m 51s): And so obviously it's been a bit of an explosion in audio books, audio books are now much more important. And when I started, you could probably negotiate a different contract, separate contract for your audio book, as opposed to print. And e-book these days, no, none of the major publishers will allow you we'll give you a contract unless you're willing to sell them your, your audio rights. You can't take them away and sell them yourself and they won't do it. You get all the manual fallout so that they're not interested. And I think that's probably true of even the biggest names in the industry. That seems to be a bit of a hard line when the publishing industry, because they've realized that audio books are profitable. Anthony (33m 34s): They're very profitable if they're done well, you know, as a digital item to sell audio books are kind of perfect. You have a reasonably high value and a cost comparison to a print book. Don't cost that much to produce. There's a cost baggage. You have to pay an actor to do them, but you know, it's not as cost-intensive I think, as a print book. So yeah, explosion of audio is probably the biggest thing that I've noticed, but also, you know, publishers using social media for marketing and, you know, various different ways of exploring marketing in a digital age. Anthony (34m 18s): They weren't doing so much of that when I started, but they definitely aren't. Jesper (34m 24s): Yeah. And I think as well there, the audio book explosion is also very much linked to nowadays. Many people are way too busy in their life. So audio book is then like, like podcasting, you know, it's something you can listen to while you're doing other things. And I think in part that's why it has taken off in the sense that it has or to the degree that it has, because it, it just goes better with a busy lifestyle than sitting down to read a book. Nobody has that much time anymore. Unfortunately. Anthony (34m 56s): Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a fan of audio books or certain authors or Stephen King these days. I only do Stephen King audio books. I don't read his books. I only listen to the audio books for him. There's a few others as well. So I find this my preferred format for memoirs, you know, comedic memoirs and that kind of thing, especially when it's written, but it's read by the author. A lot of comedians do audio books a few days, which quietly. Jesper (35m 26s): Yeah, there was something else I wanted to mention here before we, before we wrap things up because I was on your website earlier today. And then I saw a menu item called map room. And that really triggered me because I absolutely love fantasy maps. And it was so wonderful to see an entire webpage on the, on the website dedicated to maps from your books. I really liked that. Anthony (35m 53s): Yeah. I'm a big map fan as well. I draw my old, my own maps for the books and you know, so there's no copyright issues with me putting them on my website. And if you are a fantasy also with maps at the front of your book, I would recommend putting you on the website because they don't show up that well on eBooks kind of fiddly, keep referring back to them when you're reading an ebook, but put them on your webpage. People have a place to go to see them, you know? Yeah. It does seem to be a thing for fantasy funds. They like a good map. Jesper (36m 28s): Yeah. I know. I know for me, myself, if I started reading a new fantasy map, even if it's on the Kindle and I do agree, it's it, the resolution of it is not the best air, but if I do open a new fantasy book and I don't find that map within the couple of first couple of pages, I'm already slightly disappointed. Anthony (36m 48s): Yeah. This is, it's become this thing that we all expect. You know, maybe one day I'll publish a fantasy novel without a mark just to be daring, but probably, yeah, Jesper (37m 1s): That's great. Anthony (37m 3s): I heard about David Gammell, loser delight, great British fantasy also, who never, that only, I think only his historical fantasies have maps in them. They were real well-matched but it's actual secondary world fantasies never had maps. And the story I had once was the, the trying to get hired a guy to do a map for him. And he said, all these characters live on the north pole because they're was going east, west, south, and all that. But it makes no sense when you try and track their movements in impossible direction. So basically impossible his roadmap, David them world. Jesper (37m 44s): Right? No, but it is a challenge because when there is a map, then of course it becomes possible to start tracking the distance and how far were, or, you know, because we have it as well in the, in our novel, when, when I need them to go to one place of the, of the world, to another place of the world, I will actually pull out the map and just sort of figure out, okay, if you were a medieval guy who needed to go this distance, how long would it actually take you? So in one, on one regard, that's good that you can make it more realistic in that sense, but another, but on another hand it also makes it difficult sometimes when you're having multiple points of view and then for one character a month passed. And for the other one, you need to take two days, that's a bit of a jealous, Anthony (38m 27s): It was it's. One of the realities of the medieval world was it took ages to get anywhere. And the average person can walk maybe 10 miles a day. You know, you know, a soldier can do 20 miles a day. Cause that's what they're trained for your average person, you know, carrying goods on that bag. He's not going to manage all in 10 miles a day. So it was a hard reality. Then you try and get rounded, maybe Busey magic or something. But if you want your world at one end of the empire Monday, and then they've made it all the way to the other end by Tuesday, you know, it's just not realistic. Jesper (39m 9s): No, no. That's where, well we love time. And also does some tricks with these. I can't remember what, what Michael or what Jordan called them, but it was this way gates or whatever it was. I can't remember the name for it anymore. Anthony (39m 23s): Yeah. Similar in Robin hops, assassin series over these Stoughton portals, people can go to yeah. It's a useful plot device. If you can get it to a Jesper (39m 36s): Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, I want to thank you, Anthony, as well for coming on the podcast and share from, from all your experience and your insights into writing and publishing. Anthony (39m 48s): I'm sorry. No problem enjoyed it. Jesper (39m 51s): And if people want to learn more about you and your writing, Anthony, where do you want them to go? Anthony (39m 58s): My website has all the links to everything. It's a Anthony Ryan dot net. You'll find links to my social media is on there and details of all my books and learn by them and so forth. Jesper (40m 10s): Excellent. I will put the link to a Anthony's website in the show notes as well. So your deal is now you can go and click directly from there. And once again, I want to thank you, Anthony, for coming on the podcast today and fill in for autumn. So I hope you've got a lot from it and enjoyed it. Narrator (40m 28s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

Today we delve into the Nebula Award Nominated and bestselling book Jade City by Fonda Lee. What can this highly acclaimed AND popular novel teach us about worldbuildling, plotting, and characters? Join us and we share what we love, what we didn't prefer, and our thoughts on this novel. Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.   SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.   Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.  Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). Narrator (1s): You're listening to The Am. Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Jesper (29s): Hello, I'm Jesper and Autumn (31s): I'm Autumn. Jesper (33s): This is episode 153 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And it is time for our Critical Reading of Jade City by Fonda Lee. And we'll be sharing our thoughts and views with the aim to see what we write as can learn from Autumn (51s): Yes, I'm looking forward to it because it was such an interesting story, but you know, listening right now, if you were planning on reading this book and you haven't yet spoilers, there will be spoilers. So keep that in mind. If you're listening, this is a critical review, not a blurb or a teaser. We're going to rip it apart and say what we love, what we wish had been different and see what else we can learn from this book. Jesper (1m 15s): Yes. And we also got a few remarks from patron supporters. So we will also mention some of that Autumn (1m 23s): As well. Yes. I'm looking forward to it. I happen to have read some of those comments and I'm kind of in agreement with them. So that'll be really fun. Jesper (1m 32s): I am for the most part as well. Autumn (1m 36s): All right. End of episode. No, Jesper (1m 38s): That was it. Go on. Read, read, threatened. That's it Autumn (1m 43s): Awesome. Well, how are things over at Denmark? It's been a little while since we talked, which was partially my fault. I will warn viewers now. I am still, I had a cold. It really knocked it. Wasn't COVID knock on wood, but it's definitely knocked me for a loop. So if my voice is a little hoarse or if I will, I swear I will cough. I'll either mute myself or he'll go away from the microphone. But yeah, there's, there's a chance I'm still coughing a little bit. So it's been awhile. This episode was supposed to be the previous one and we just couldn't get together because cold I've got to call. Jesper (2m 18s): Yeah, this was supposed to be 100 and episode 1 55, 2, and then it now turned out to be 1, 5, 3, and, well, it was a bit of a mess because we had to rearrange stuff and redo stuff and rename podcast episodes and whatnot, but we succeeded and we're here now. Autumn (2m 36s): That's what counts. So how are things been? It's been absolutely ages since we talked. Jesper (2m 42s): Yeah. Well now I don't remember if it was last week or the week before, to be honest. But we were in here during winter time, as I've said on previous podcasts, I started doing sea kayaking. So here during winter time, well, you can go out, see kayaking, but you need a dry suit, which costs a lot of money. So, and we don't have that, but then what we can do is we can go to the swimming hole. So we take the kayaks into the swimming stadium and we train in the swimming pool to do like, you know, Eskimo rolls is what we call them. Dana's I don't know what the English word is, but you know, without getting out of the kayak, you basically you're upside down in the water and then you learn how to get back up out of the water without exiting the kayak at all. Jesper (3m 31s): And I actually managed to do the first roll this last time when we went to practice for the first time I succeeded in rolling around. So that was pretty cool. Autumn (3m 42s): That is really cool. I've never managed to do a full one note. I usually, I was a whitewater kayaking so much smaller, like half the size of a ocean kayak, a sea kayak. And I still never quite learned the hip snap part to get myself fully back on my own. So that's really cool that you could advantage one. Jesper (4m 2s): Yeah, well, it was like a w the time before my wife succeeded doing it and she was just like, and she did it like 10, 15 times, like, like w what, what brown run around. And I was, and I was just so much struggling. It was like, fuck, I can't do it. And then, but then last time we were here in the swimming hole, we had a couple of instructors with us. So I think the instructor probably spent like an hour with me trying to explain how, you know, because it is really, I mean, when I succeeded, I was actually surprised to see how little muscle power you need to use it. It's actually, it's all about technique. You, you almost need to do nothing to flip around if you just use the right technique. Jesper (4m 45s): So, and, and if you like, like angle your body just slightly wrong, or you, you use your arm slightly in the wrong way, you're not going to flip around. So it's really about techniques, but it it's, I succeeded, but now of course, I'm concerned the next time we're going to go train, then I can't do it again. Autumn (5m 4s): Well, it's all muscle memory. So eventually you'll get it down with that as awesome. However, it's hilarious. Your wife was like, whoo, I'm just rolling. Like Jesper (5m 12s): Rolling around like, well, it's quite easy. Yes. That's easy for you to say Yeah. At the other than that, then a well on, in terms of working wise, we've sent book one of our new series off to the editor. So we're waiting to get it back from the first edit, and then it'll go to the second editor and so on, but, but we're getting there now. So, so that's pretty cool. And otherwise we've started to look ahead for 2020 and kind of discuss some of our future plans and so on. But I quite like this time of year when we're sort of reviewing, what are we going to do next inside? That that's always fun to me. Autumn (5m 54s): It is. I think it's it's so it's good to do that. You should do in your life. Should do it in your writing, your book, marketing, whatever you got going on. I think so many people don't take the opportunity to reflect and then reorganized and then hit the new year with maybe some new goals and some new operations and stuff. So I agree which again, you know, go figure we've we tend to agree on just about everything. So it's no surprise. We both enjoy looking over stuff. And I think it gets your passion going, if you feel like you're just doing the same old thing and you just need to keep plugging away at it, you'd lose the passion. And, and it's half the fun is getting that back and getting excited about things and what you're going to do for the next year. Jesper (6m 35s): Yeah, indeed. So how about you? What have you been busy with the last couple of weeks Autumn (6m 40s): Sick, but not much. I've well, I mean, I've managed to get the editing done and so that's been off and I'm going to be working, starting to delve into getting our website for dot com, going some minor, things like that. So I'm looking forward to really getting into that more, but I was surprised last time I was truly sick was actually right when I came back from London and in January, 2019, I got kind of the same thing, chills, really sick. And that really knocked me down for three days. But this one, it was funny. I started feeling better and then I'd be sick for two days and then I'd start feeling better. Autumn (7m 20s): And, oh, it's been a nightmare. I really thought I was surprised when I got the COVID test results back as negative. I'm like, really? If this isn't COVID, oh, there's some other nasty bugs out there. No one should ever have to go through this, but I have never had chills, like shaking so hard while I had a fever in my entire life. Thank goodness. My husband has medical wilderness medical training. Cause he's like, I wasn't worried. We're fine. I know what to do. But I was like, he's saying, right, this is not right, Jesper (7m 52s): But there is a buck like that going around because I mean, over the last two weeks, I was sick for a couple of days as well. And I wasn't, I didn't have the shakes like you're describing there, but I did have a fever. And I was absolutely absolutely sure that this is COVID because it felt like, you know, the, all the flu kind of symptoms, all the stuff that you hear about and, and your throat, you can feel it all the time. It was exactly like the symptoms described for, for COVID. But I also went and got a test and it was negative, but there is something going around like that at the moment. Autumn (8m 23s): Yes. I mean, none of our listeners catch it. It's not contagious through podcasts. Thank goodness. I Jesper (8m 28s): Don't think it's contagious through podcasting. Autumn (8m 32s): I hope not. But yeah. I mean, as I've described it, I feel like I've actually been sleeping with a hot water bottle. I feel like my internal thermostat, we, we speak in car language all the time. I'm not sure, but my thermostat is busted. It is not working. So please, if you find yourself getting cold, stay warm, make sure you, I was sleeping with a hat on and a hot water bottle and a coat. And it's just ridiculous. But yeah. Keep yourself warm and healthy and have a good December. Cause you don't want to get sick at the beginning of winter. It's I'm going to have a horse, a sore throat all winter now Narrator (9m 7s): A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. Jesper (9m 13s): So I found a very interesting article on the internet that I just thought I would share here. Excellent. Because it's probably over the past month or something like that, I've been posting sort of different topics to our patron supporters about different aspects of PIP, big publishers merging together and sort of the effect that it might or might not have on us authors that all these big publishers are merging, you know, like low advances, lower royalty payments and so on. I mean us indie publishers, it's not so concerning, but for everybody doing the traditional publishing, then I've been just making different patron posts about that. Jesper (9m 55s): But then I found this article as well about a penguin random house and Simon and Schuster was, they are looking to merge in a $2.2 billion deal. Wow. But then the us justice department stepped in and blocked the merger. Did you see that? Autumn (10m 11s): No, I did not. It's funny. I read the news a lot, but I did not see that one. Jesper (10m 16s): No, no. So the U S justice department assessed that the merchant would create a two dominant market role and it would hurt authors and readers. What do you think about that? Autumn (10m 27s): Well, it's funny. I I've, I agree. We need competition. And so there are things to keep the, you know, something from developing into something that's not gonna squash competition, but then I like a Facebook and Amazon and Jesper (10m 43s): Facebook Autumn (10m 45s): And they haven't considered that dominating things. I mean, especially with Amazon bought good reads and they own publishing and, and there's like the dominant market, but at least they're trying to protect the brick and mortar ones. You know, it's good that they're maintaining some competition out there. Jesper (11m 3s): Yeah. I mean, from a publishing point of view, penguin is the largest publisher and they are launches rival is shaman, Simon and Schuster. So those two merging would generate like a massive dominance in democracy. And in my view it would be like unprecedented on re what are you saying, unprecedented? That was what I was trying to say, control of the publishing industry. Right? So I fully agree with the us justice department here. I think it's a good thing that they are blocking this, but of course the lawyer of penguin then claims that it would actually be good for the authors if the two giants merged and that the publishing imprints will continue to compete against each other is what he said. Jesper (11m 46s): I don't buy that for a second. Autumn (11m 48s): I don't buy that. I think it would give them a better edge to compete against Amazon, but Amazon is so far ahead and eBooks and they're just really, and they're pretty solid and paperbacks, but they're just delving into hard cover. So I think it would put them against each other pretty solidly that way, but I don't think it would help authors to have basically your choices, Amazon or whatever penguin and Shuster would be called. But I mean, to me, it's almost like Amazon decided to buy, oh gosh, I might just completely blanked, but where you buy your, where we're also have our paperbacks published Ingram, like Amazon bought Ingram, spark authors would be doomed, just doomed, but I don't think anyone wants to go under, but yeah, that is like the only other real competition for Amazon is Ingram spark. Autumn (12m 38s): And a lot of people don't even realize it. Jesper (12m 43s): Yeah. And Spotify just bought a find a way voices. Autumn (12m 46s): Wow. There's some shakeup going on. Jesper (12m 50s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want to be the dominant audio producer, just like YouTube being for video to Spotify, want to dominate the entire audio Margaret. Oh, Autumn (12m 59s): That'll be interesting. Jesper (13m 1s): But then you also saw, you know, of course that was like early in the year, but also Spotify buying Joe Rogan's podcast for a hundred million dollars and stuff like that. Right. So they're, they're really, you know, playing hot in, in trying to just dominate the audio market, which I probably think, I think, I think they're onto something, but of course from a content creator point of view, you can be nervous that it's going to be the same outcome as it was for musicians. I like getting paid pennies when it's paid on And when or music is played on Spotify and it could be concerned about the same thing here from, from a audio book kind of perspective. Now today bought find a way of voices that you also can end up in a situation where we authors are just going to get paid a few pennies per audio book play. Jesper (13m 49s): So that is a bit concerning. Autumn (13m 52s): I agree. It's yeah. Jesper (13m 60s): All right. So Jade city is a world fantasy award winner. It is, or it was named as one of the times, top 100 fantasy books of all time. And it was a Nebula award nominee for best novel. So, and I actually went, and now it's a couple of days ago, but I did go and check the sales ranking on Amazon. And I think you will see if you do that, that it's selling quite well. So there is a reason why we picked this book in the first place. Yeah. Autumn (14m 28s): And I have to say in some ways it really impressed me. I was so excited. I think by the time I hit chapter two or three, I mean, I was into it. There was no way I wasn't going to finish the book. So I can say that, but I don't know when we'll get there, but my impression at the end I'll let you know if I still felt that way. And I went on because it is a trilogy and there was a book two and a three. So I will say we'll get to maybe how I felt at the end of the little bit. But I will say when I first started reading it, it was unlike the last critical review we did, which was of the fifth season. That one, we were talking about tense changes. I mean, that was very much literary fantasy. Autumn (15m 9s): This one was true fantasy. Not, it wasn't even high fantasy. The setting and the time is more like Japan just after world war one maybe, or just after the U S you know, came in and started taking over just after Japan. Now I can't even remember the date that is, but when Japan opens up to the rest of the world and goes from the Shogun period into a modern era. So it's right at that cusp, there's guns, there's different far-flung politics, but this central very strong government that is used to a very traditional way of doing things and the clans are there. And it's, if you like Kung Fu movies, it has so much of that. Autumn (15m 50s): It was really exciting. I kind of, yeah, I've kind of, it's just like the Grisha of universe. I'm kind of really liking that these a lot of fantasy that is not just medieval, it's really pulling up to different time periods now. And it's kind of like, well, this is, this is different. This is exciting. I'm really enjoying it. Jesper (16m 10s): Yeah. Okay. I think I will, I will not give my overall sort of a conclusion on it. I think we'll talk through it. And then if it's not clear by everything else I say, then I can give my, my final words on, on this book by the end. But I think just as Autumn said, in the beginning of the episode, we are heading into spoiler territory now. So a B one, if you haven't read this book and want to read it, you probably want to stop now and then come back once you read it, and then you can listen in and see if you agree with what we're saying here, but yeah, from now on, you'll have been warned. Autumn (16m 46s): That is very, I think that's been clear to warnings, you know, what you're getting into if you continue on from here. Jesper (16m 53s): Yeah. But so I've made some different notes that sort of some, let's say places where I feel like I can, I can sort of drop in and talk about something, but there was no specific order to this. It's just like different notes on different thoughts. And then also some comments from Stephen, both from good reads our Goodrich group, but also from, from patron. So I have some comments of his and I, I picked some of the comments where I also have a, have you on what he says. So it's sort of like, they are good talking points. But I think first of all, I could start by saying this book is really well written. Jesper (17m 37s): I really feel like, you know, it, it evokes feelings and, you know, the way she described things though, the characters and they do make me as the reader. No, I'm able to picture the scene in my mind when things are happening. So, So that is really well done. So yeah, first, first let's say item on the list is just that it is really, well-written Autumn (18m 3s): Definitely, I think it is worth reading. It is a fun book to read. It is engaging the, again, the world is a different little bit of different time period. If you do like Kung Fu movies, it has that the magic system. I'm sure we'll get into that as well with the Jade and the green bones, the only people that kept kidneys who are the ones who can actually use Jade, everyone else is if they touch it, they're either, unreactive, there's a few people who are in the world who are unreactive to Jade, but the rest of them can basically become addicted. It's like opium. Maybe it's a good substitute for that, but it also gives you really amazing powers. So it's, it's sort of the magic system. And it's really fun. Autumn (18m 43s): I liked that it's tied to a traditional item, that it works in very set ways when she talks about like, you can do this with it, you can do that with it, but it's really hard to do both. Some people are more powerful. They can take, they can wear tons of J jewelry. And there's other people that, you know, you put on five and that's your Bakst out, that's it? I like that there's variation. And it depends on who you are and your heritage. And that there's only this one select group of people, the Keck honeys, who are truly there, the Jade warriors, the green bones who can wear this. And it's also knowing a little bit of Japanese history and Chinese history, how important Jade was, you know, they, they buried their emperor's wearing Jade uniforms. Autumn (19m 25s): And so I'm like, oh, this is it's tying in history. And it's, it's, it's Jade. I love stones and I love green, so, oh, I just liked this matching system. It really resonated with me. Jesper (19m 37s): Yeah. Okay, cool. Because at one of the points that I had written on my list here is really a question mark to my cell is that it's this magic system. Really? That unique question, mark. It was what I wrote on my, on my list because it's basically just superpowers. I mean, yeah, you're using the Jade to, to get your powers, but it's nothing more than that. I mean, the more I thought about it, the less unique I actually feel like the magic system is. I mean, it's fun and all that. It's not, not that, but if you're looking at it from a uniqueness point of view or trying to create something new, then I really don't feel it is that, I don't know if that's fair to say, but Autumn (20m 14s): I think in some ways, I mean, it's based on a lot of traditional, you could substitute any stone instead of Jade on any universe. I mean, I know I've read other ones where it's just a, sort of like the L stones of Shannara. You have stones and you can do something with it. So I think it has a very strong heritage in the same aspect, but I liked that she tied it in to a culture and a history. But again, I also know, and we'll probably get into that or we can get into it now, but the Jade is tied to a history that, again, I keep saying Japan, this is not supposed to be Japan. It's supposed to be Keck, knees and kick on. And that is, I think to me was the biggest weakness is that it was so obvious what country it was and the time period and the era that I was just like, can we just call it Japan? Autumn (21m 6s): It felt like it's an island. So I felt maybe this is supposed to be Okinawa. There's the one area we're against, which to me is the Korea, is which Japan has a huge history of fighting with the Korea. And then there's this sort of English slash for some reason I kept thinking of Spain, but it might be because it was started with like Espana, you know, it had that kind of name to me. So it was like an English slash European foreign power as well. It's just like, it was so obvious that I was like, make it either more different and truly unique, or just call it what it is, because it's not even a filmy gray layer. It's pretty apparent what you're trying to base this on. Jesper (21m 49s): Yeah. I think, I think that's correct. Not necessarily that I think that's a problem as such. I mean, I know we've talked about many times doing our monthly Q and a session with, with our students and, and patron supporters. And so on that if it's a horse, call it a horse. Right. I mean, we set many times, but I, I'm not sure it's a problem as such a, that, that you are sort of mimicking, mimicking close off of some, some real life place, because on the other hand, if you call it Japan and then they were running around with Jade powers, that might, that might also feel wrong. But I, I don't know, but I don't necessarily think that's a problem. That's probably like a, you know, taste kind of thing or opinion thing. Autumn (22m 34s): Some people, yeah, I think some people will not mind it as much, but I, and I was comparing it to like the Grish of books, the Grisha verse, which has also has some key aspects that are very much based on cultures of this planet, but she does a really good job of anchoring the history into her novel it's they develop out of the novel and they have completely unique aspects based on the world. I guess I was, I like my fantasy, just a little bit more fantasy. And this was so close to the real world with just a little van veil of difference that I was like, well, I wanted to see, I think, a little more different. I wanted a little more traditional, a little more history based on the world she was creating for the book rather than something that, oh, I could let me go check Wikipedia and make sure that that is what, how it happened. Jesper (23m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. I, I think on that note, I could just sort of inject the comment we got from Stephen on Goodreads, because it sort of goes very much along with what you're talking about. I think because Steven said a quote here, we have a very Earth-like world where technology is straight out of the late seventies, early eighties. Yeah. So that's just me saying he he's in a different time zone or time period, and you are thinking about it, but okay. Then back to the quote, they have cars, they have guns, they have landline phones, they have vocabulary is completely from modern times. Lee basically took the idea of a Jade based magic system and shoved it into a culture of Oriental gangs from the seventies. Jesper (24m 8s): And right. So, so he's thinking that this is like late seventies, early eighties, where you're talking about after world war one. So there's a bit of, let's say change there, but, but again, I'm not so sure that I fully agree with the fact that their vocabulary is completely from modern times. Like you said, well, maybe it is, but I don't necessarily think that's a problem. I mean, this for me, this is a fantasy setting, so who knows how they talk? I mean, but it goes very much along with what you were talking about. Like, it feels like depends or why not just say it's Japan and so on and so on. Whereas I just think, I just view it as it's a fantasy setting so she can do whatever she wants and maybe it is indeed heavily inspired by some real life cultures and real life locations. Jesper (24m 52s): I don't disagree with that. I also think that it's it's, it is that just like Steven is saying, and like you were saying as well, but I guess I'm just not seeing it as a problem. Autumn (25m 4s): I, and I think that just comes down to personal taste to me. I'd like to see it. I would like to, if I didn't understand a word, like how the people greet each other, there is language used and I'm pretty sure all the language use was Japanese. And I basically could have put it into Google translator and checked it. I think there's a part of me who said, I would rather have that as a fantasy language, make it up to fit your world and don't just make it so that I check it. I did not, but I, I had assumed that I probably could have with that a lot, except for the place names that some of the greetings, some of the words, some of the language, the traditions were very much based on real things that you could Google or check on Wikipedia and double-check. Autumn (25m 52s): And I was just like that's Yeah, to me, I'm like, I would rather have that just shifted a little more into fantasy. Otherwise it w it felt a little not cheating. It just felt like a little bit more work could have been done to make it really have like, wow. That is fantastic. That is so cool. Instead of going like, yeah, I read that the other day in an article on Wikipedia. Cool. Jesper (26m 19s): Yeah, no, fair enough. Fair enough. But I have another call comment as well from, from Steven, which this time I very much agree with him. So I, you ready for this one? Is it also about culture and stuff? So he says a quote. I think if a culture had such a magic system for many centuries, it would have drastically all areas of history and industry in such a way that the world would be a very different place. How would Jade have affected the countless wars over the centuries? How would it have affected the world governments? How would it have affected technology? She doesn't really answer those questions and quote, and here, I really agree with Steven, because if you just imagine, like you take these Jade warriors and you put them in some sort of special forces in the military, I mean, there's nothing they couldn't do, right? Jesper (27m 16s): I mean, yeah, you have guns and stuff. You can shoot them. But, but I mean, if they are like, especially the forces and they sneak in behind enemy lines, I mean, just, they can wreck complete havoc and there's not much you can do to stop them. So, and I don't think that she really concerns herself with, with the fact that wooden governments also try to find ways to basically leverage these kinds of people and conquer other countries and stuff like that is it's never mentioned really from a building perspective. I just felt like that was stuff that could have been explored further here. Autumn (27m 56s): Yeah. I, there, I completely agree. The one thing I did like is that she does have the kind of European foreign power is trying to develop a drug to allow them. Yeah. So yeah. To allow their military to also be able to use Jade and I mean, it has bad side effects. It basically makes you addicted. It can completely overreact. So there, I like that. That was a really cool aspect. But looking at the history, basically all the history you have of Kay Khan and the Keck Annies and the Jade warriors is that they were kind of guerrilla fighters. There was a foreign country that was controlling them and they came down the Hills, they fought for freedom and a revolution, and they want it very, very recently, but it's just like Jesper (28m 39s): Taking over the Autumn (28m 40s): World. I know it gives, like you were saying, I mean, you have these guys train, they can deflect bullets. They have the power to do that. There's like six major powers and one of them is deflection. So yeah, you have some ninja like trained warriors. You could go assassinate just about anyone. Jesper (28m 58s): I have a super fast speed and they have super strong, you know, super strength as well. So I mean, there's almost nothing they can do. Autumn (29m 7s): No. And it's neat because she does have setups where it's like, it's really hard to do two of those at once. It's almost like you can only do one at a time unless you're really, really good. And you have to be well trained. I mean, there's a school you go through. I don't know how many years of schooling, just to be able to learn, to harness this energy. I loved all of that. But again, once you became a full blooded Jade warrior, a green bone here, pretty much it all, it's like, it all was just clan in fighting to control this tiny nation where it's like, they, their history, these people should have rulers. They should have been gone. Like there's mentions of being descended from gods, but it's not developed the point to explain that why they were so insignificant in their own culture prior to this period. Autumn (29m 55s): And I agree with Stephen wholeheartedly, it just felt like it was missing. And if this was a real, real, real fantasy culture, their history would have probably needed a lot more explanation of why they weren't ruling other countries and incredibly wealthy country and a huge superpower because they got skills. Jesper (30m 16s): Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And then that's the part where I don't quite understand why they're just sticking to the small little island here. I mean, why? I mean, okay, fair enough. I mean, gang fighting and stuff like, you know, it is basically the gangs fighting each other and so on, but, but come on. I mean, the government would have stepped in and say, say, Hey guys, you know, you're going to be filthy risk rich, all of you, if you worked for us and, and we go out and we conquer some nation, other nations, I mean, they would have done that. Autumn (30m 46s): I agree. And I Jesper (30m 49s): Could have just now. Yeah, I was just about to finish my, my thought because they, she could just have mentioned it as a short paragraph somewhere, just saying for whatever reason they didn't want to, or, or just give some sort of explanation to why, and then that, that would have been closed. Right. But because it's never mentioned, then it just makes me wonder. Okay. Autumn (31m 10s): Yeah. And I think, again, this is where she was relying way too heavily on the history of Japan because they did close their borders for two centuries, 200 years. They basically were not open up to the rest of the world until the U S came in with a steam ship and basically opened up a country to, from the Shogun era where they're using samurais to basically fast forward, within a matter of years to a full industrial nation. And if you know the history, you're kind of like, oh, she's just basically assuming this is what happened here. And just mentioning instead of the shoguns, as it's the warriors in the mountains and the revolutions and the gorillas and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Autumn (31m 50s): But that doesn't work that's, this is supposed to be a fan of it. Doesn't it's not explained with the magic system she has. And that's where, again, I have the problem that if you're going to develop this culture and this history, and it's a different world, don't just rely on what happened in this world, because it doesn't fit. It's going to leave you these disjointed things that I'm like, I don't understand why this would happen this way. Jesper (32m 14s): No, I agree. I, and one of the things we talk a lot about in our world building causes, basically making sure that you analyze what are the wider consequences of the magic system and of the things that you develop in your world, because it will have impact on other things in society on other nations may be in this case and so on. So it's not that you have to play that all out, meaning that just not like the needs to then conquer the world or stuff, but, but at least you need to think about what does it mean? And then if we, I don't want as an author to have the conquered the world, then at least I should have an explanation for why they didn't do so. Jesper (32m 54s): And, and in the same vein here, Steven also said, if Jade is such a powerful substance, has anyone tried to harness it as a power source, the lead through line in there somewhere about scientists studying Jay to find other users, but to no avail, because it only enhances people of bloodline. I would have been able to accept that, but then it would have brought me back to my initial question of why would those J powered S J powered supers have been content with just their tiny corner of the world? And then we're back where we started. Right? But again, I mean, this is again the wider, the wider consequences of having J powers. Jesper (33m 37s): And if you can really get that many powers out of a Jade stone, then I understand what Steven means in terms of, it's not only about military strength here, right? I mean, you, you probably would wonder as a government as well. I wonder if we can use this as a power source for other things, right. And again, like Steven also says, it's not that the fund, the leader needs to make that into something she could, like Steven says she could just have made a small paragraph some way explaining why they tried and they failed and decided not to go any further or whatever, and then fine. Right. But I'm, I'm really missing from a worldbuildling perspective. I think it is a really cool setting. Jesper (34m 17s): So don't get me wrong. I think it's, it's quite cool, but that what would have just made it even better would have been some, some consideration about this wider consequence of the Jade powers. And I really feel that it's completely missing. Autumn (34m 36s): I then I completely agree with you and Steven, that is just, there's something missing. I mean, there could have been any explanation why Jade warriors were limited, why they, they were sick. There was a disease, something just, I wanted some explanation of why they seem so minimal. They were just figure, you know, they had Klan leadership, but it was just this little island. Why not more, but I also want to get into the character is because I think Jesper (35m 4s): Just thinking about, Autumn (35m 7s): You know, we haven't talked in like two weeks and it's, we're still in the same Playboy that's, that's good. But that was, I think my other love and hate of the story were when it came down to the characters, they were well-developed. They were interesting. They had very strong personalities and there were two I wanted to really bow. Well, I guess there was three I wanted to bond with the one was the clan leader who was land. I really, he was my favorite up until okay, very big spoiler alert. He dies. And up until that point, I was really excited. Like he did not want to be the leader of a clan during a war. Autumn (35m 49s): And that's where this world was heading. There was going to be a clan war. And he was basically the only one trying to keep everything together. He didn't want, he wanted to be, he was an awesome, peaceful clan leader, but I'm like, I want to see how he changes, how he transforms and boom kills them off. So I was like, Ugh. And I also, there was Shay, which was his sister and I wanted to like her, she had gone out and explore the world and come back. And there was a few chapters in there where it was like, do I go back to my clan? Do I knock it back to me? And I got to the point, I'm like, just make a decision. I was getting a little sick of her indecision and I never bonded with her because she was just too wishy-washy. And the only other one I kind of liked was Emery Andin. Autumn (36m 31s): Who was the one who was the young Jade bone who had quite the backstory. His mother was like too sensitive, went bad. His father's European. Well, okay. Quote, unquote, European. We're just going to call him that. And he, so he's highly sensitive to Jade. He can do amazing things with it, but he was also too emotional there's times. I wish he was a girl, but then I would have been really annoyed. He was so emotional. At least as a guy, he was like, oh, okay. A really emotional guy. That's kind of different, but I didn't bond with him either. And at the end of the book, that is actually what kept me from buying book two is like, this is interesting. I have some questions about the world and the Jade and the magic, but I really don't really care. Autumn (37m 13s): They killed off land and I don't really care what happens to any of the characters enough to make me go buy book two right now, maybe if I have some spare time later and that's prized me, I was really all set to love this book, but I didn't find the character that really made me want to turn the next page. Jesper (37m 33s): No. And funny enough as usual, we agree here. I mean the only one that slightly had my interest until he was killed, but because it's like, I feel like from the very first page, the worldbuildling really comes into its own. Right, right. Immediately you're sucked into this pretty cool setting. And I was very hooked in it. The first couple of chapters, like this is really great pot. Then the character building and making me as a Rita care for those characters never really happened. It's also, I feel also it's a bit difficult to care for characters who are part of a crime syndicate and they just heard each other people and stuff like that. Jesper (38m 16s): And it's that alone that in his own, it's a bit difficult. It's like, it's like the, the short story we wrote as a prequel for our new series, basically the main coats are there is, is one of the villain in the, So that also they it's, it was a to make, make a character to read us would actually care about because he is actually not that good of a guy. And I feel like that that's the same problem here. Yeah. That it's just like, there is no real character development. I feel like there's real. No, no real care to ox. It's just like a straightforward standard gangster succession story. Jesper (38m 59s): Really? That's it? Autumn (39m 0s): Yeah. I think you really put your finger on it. What, there's no character arc. I was, I thought li like I said, the land had some potential and I was interested to see where he grew too. And he dies. And that was the only one who really, I saw a potential arc to even Emory. I thought at the end, he totally acts out at the perfectly perfect storm moment to not act out in a culture where you don't act out, insult his family, insult everyone, like a huge slap in the face to his family. And I was just like, I wanted some reservations. Like I understood as a writer, why you would do that because to me, you know, you're Writing Fantasy. Autumn (39m 42s): It's always like oceans are supercharged. Things happen, you know, big drama, but I just wanted some restraint from his character to show some sign of growth of thinking beyond his own needs. And yeah, he was being used. But again, in the family setting, it was kind of, he needed to have been used at that point. And it was also an opportunity for him to grow and he just didn't. And I didn't really, I just was so disappointed in him at the end of specifically where I'm like, okay, maybe there's potential. And I was like, I really don't care what happens to him after this. And like I said, I had that one thought I'm like, gosh, it would have been interesting if he had been a strong woman, because there's only a couple of strong women's because it's a very patriarchal, very patriarchal society, even though it's written by a woman. Autumn (40m 35s): And I thought, well, I, I didn't connect with anyone. And that's really a shame because it's a kind of, it's the story itself had so much potential. Jesper (40m 46s): Yeah. I mean, of course this is a Critical Reading episode, so we are being very critical. I mean, I would say it, isn't an entertaining read. It's a good book. So, so, so, so it's just us being very critical here because it's a Critical Reading episode, but so I'll continue in the second way and being a bit critical because what I also felt like I would really have liked some sort of surprised or, or twist about something, just something, but everything was so straightforward that I really felt like, not that I could predict everything that would happen as such, but I, and I don't know if Lee, maybe Lance Beth, you could say was a bit of a surprise. I was, I actually, I was not expecting him to die. Jesper (41m 29s): And so that was a bit of a surprise, but know, but I, I dunno, it just felt too straightforward if you know what I mean. Autumn (41m 37s): Yeah, no, I do. I see, I was kind of, I knew land was either going to die or he's going to have an awesome character arc. And I was so hungry for that character arc and it didn't happen. And I was a little surprised at how they used Emery to defeat the other clan or, well, it wasn't really a defeat defeat, but how they used him and his power, but it completely made sense. And if you were paying maybe attention to embryo a little bit more, you would have totally seen where that was coming from. So everything very much built off of everything you expected to in the story. And there was no huge surprise twist. There was no women coming in to save the day, which, you know, I always hope for, but it didn't happen. Autumn (42m 17s): I was true. Everything was just a little too stuck in its box and stayed there pretty tightly. And so there, I kind of agree. I, I wanted something a bit more exciting, something a bit more surprising and it never developed. I was actually really holding up when LAN the night he dies, he gets a letter from his ex-wife that he had let go. He was way too nice of a character in many ways for the world he was in. And I always wanted to know what was in that letter. It was like the hanging threat. I was expecting her to say, well, actually I left and I was pregnant with you. And I just he's, he's your son and or your daughter, which would have been really awesome. Autumn (42m 58s): And I it's time she come back and begin her training with you. I would've been heart-stopping Lee so excited, but they never actually mentioned the letter. He puts it in a drawer and no one finds it. I'm like, is this in book two? I don't. And again, that's, that's about the only curiosity I have is what was in this really thick letter edits. At least I'm curious about it, but you know, if there had been some tea, some tea, but it would have been better to end book one with someone having found it and opening it going, oh my gosh. Then I would have been booked to right there then. Autumn (43m 38s): Oh my gosh. Jesper (43m 40s): Oh, lots heat from Rita's if you did that. Oh my God. They said, Autumn (43m 44s): I know, but I would have bought it in this, in a heartbeat just to find out what was said. So I didn't have that draw. And again, I agree with you, this book it's worth reading. It's entertaining. It's beautiful. If you love kung-fu it is such a fun book to read. I think book two and three might be worth reading. I mean, the reviews are astounding. The book sales are astounding. It's probably worth reading. Yeah. But I wasn't drawn to it enough, but I think there is, there's something to learn there as a writer that there's something missing with a character or something. A lot of people, even Steven had mentioned, he didn't connect with the characters. Jesper (44m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. And of course a Windell, everybody could then say, yeah, that's nice. You guys are saying that, but this is, is this a top 100 fans as you broke it of all time. And so neighborly award nominee for best novel and so on. Yeah. And fair enough. Yes. But we can only speak of our own opinions here. And, and if I'm very honest about it, the only thing in my opinion, I can say, I don't understand why it is that highly praised. It's a good book. Yes. It's a good story. Yes, it is very, well-written great. Worldbuildling maybe with some, some missing pieces, like we talked about here, but I don't feel it's that good that it should be that highly pre I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm just, I'm just weird and I'm not like everybody else. Jesper (45m 9s): And fair enough if that's the case, but I dunno, I enjoyed it. Good read, good entertainment. But if I hadn't known that it was a award-winning novel like this, I would never have guessed it. Let me put it that way. Autumn (45m 23s): Agreed. I think I I've read some indie fiction that I think topped it, rivals it and tops it. So it's interesting that it got picked for us is such an award-winning and so touted. I think there's a lot of great books out there. It's no better than a lot of them. I mean, well, okay. It's better than some of the really rough ones, but it's on par. It's a good book. It's entertaining. There's other ones that are probably more exceptional. But other than that, again, it is my opinion. It was worth reading, but wow. I can only complain to complain to have the problems she has with how well it's doing good luck best for her. I'm so excited. Autumn (46m 4s): I wish every author who wrote that well or on par could do as well. Jesper (46m 10s): Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think one last thing I had on my list to mention here, because this is really something I've learned, not from this novel alone, but sort of from all these kinds of bestseller novels that we read over the, I mean, we read, we went one before as well for the, for this podcast. But outside of the podcast here, we, we have also had like what, four or five, something like that, very best-selling books that we've read over the last month, but just because we were trying to see what are the common denominators in these books and what I have learned, and this book is exactly the same. And I've been surprised about this because it's not, I guess my standard preference, but I just have to admit as well that after reading all of these massively successful bestsellers, what they all have in common is that they are fairly slow paced all of them, this one as well. Jesper (47m 8s): You know, it, it takes time before things get going. It's not that nothing is happening, but, but it's not a fast page. One way that you like flipping pages to see what happens next. It it's fairly slow paced. It takes a time with where you spent just spend time with the characters and all of these very, very successful novels. They all do this. So I know, I know some people sometimes say, will, it feels a bit boring because not enough is happening, but at the same time, I just have to, you know, concede and say, well, apparently that's what most people want. That's the only conclusion I can draw because I've seen it over and over and over again now. Autumn (47m 48s): Yeah, no, I agree with something and it's definitely not to my taste. Like I said, there was probably two or three chapters. I'm like, you could have cut one of these out. Oh my gosh. It's so slow in the beginning. Especially without the character development more. I think, I think that could have been stronger, but yeah, a lot of these incredibly best-selling books are slow paced and there seems to be a lot of time just spent dilly-dallying and learning parts of the world. And oh, remember when I read, there's a lot of cooking and food descriptions and I'm a foodie and I was getting a little tired of the cooking and the food description. That's a lot of cooking and food descriptions. Yeah. Jesper (48m 26s): No, I mean, don't get me wrong. The point, the point with slow paced is not to be boring. That's not what I'm saying. Right. I mean, if you just have chapters cooking and nothing is happening, that is boring. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm more things are happening and things were also happening in JTD, but it just takes it time with it. It, nothing is rusted, you know? Yeah. It's just a slow paced. Autumn (48m 50s): Yeah. Slower than you might think. If you're writing slow and you think it's slow, you might be okay. Read a couple of these books and see how you, you measure up. Yeah. Jesper (49m 0s): Alright. Anything else on your list autumn? Or is that it? Autumn (49m 4s): That's it? I think we covered all my big topics. So I will just say it is a good book. It's worth reading. There's also a lot of great authors out there, so yeah. Go check out a book. All right. Jesper (49m 17s): That's good. So next Monday I have a great interview lined up for you and I hope very much. You're going to enjoy that one. So see you then, Narrator (49m 30s): If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Jasper on patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

Do you want to write a page turning novel that will keep readers up long past their bedtime? Well, one key to doing that is to write chapters that keep readers turning pages. We go over some tips from opening lines to closing and everything in between to help you write chapters that will keep your readers hooked. To check out the book Plot Development that we mention in the podcast, follow this link: https://books2read.com/Plot-Development Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.   SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.   Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.  Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). Narrator (1s): You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Jesper (29s): I'm Jesper Autumn (31s): And I'm Autumn. Jesper (33s): This is episode 150 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And we are taking a closer look at Chapters today. How to Create Chapters, That Hook you readers, and hopefully give you some good and strong tips in the process here. Autumn (50s): Absolutely. I mean, these are sort of the building blocks of that. Pull the reader through the story. And I don't think there's a lot of people who realize maybe the importance of setting them up. I mean, we spend so much time talking about that Plot outline and what goes into the intro of your story, but we don't talk a lot about what actually is happening in each individual chapter. So I think this will be a good one we'll chapters or a book is made up by chapter. So I don't know why Chapters would be important at all at all. It's like building a wall without using any bricks. We're putting them on the walls. No, there's you go, but let's assume you want a wall and if you just put your bricks, like just dump them in a pile, you're not going to have a very good wall, so you should make sure you put it together constructively. Autumn (1m 41s): Okay. Well, if I say showed and I guess we have to talk a bit about that today. Jesper (1m 45s): Yeah. I guess we will. We'll talk about some construction equipment. No, thanks where you over there. Autumn (1m 52s): It's quite good. There is a school break here this week. So actually I don't have to get up that early in the mornings. That's very, very nice. That is always a sweet thing considering, especially, yeah, since I'd be getting up at 5:00 AM with my husband to see him off to his current training, he's going through yeah. That's, I'm envious if I'm AM's a little early for me. Yeah. The only problem is that now when you don't have to get up that early, you stay up later. And especially because my wife and I started watching squid game on Netflix. I heard about that. Yes. I've actually, I started up watching episode one and honestly I didn't get into it and maybe I was tired. Autumn (2m 35s): So I just kind of put it aside. How are you guys liking it? Jesper (2m 39s): Oh, I love it. I think it's so good. I finally understand why this caught on so big that it had it's I think it's so good. I buy have to try it again eventually, but yeah, I'll have to keep that in mind. Maybe I was just off that night. I don't know. But I think one good thing that be Taken away from us, you know, for us as writers and authors, is that the writer who wrote squid game, he actually tried to sell the script for 10 years, 10 years. Think about how much success it has right now. And it took him 10 years to, to sell it. Jesper (3m 19s): And finally Netflix said, okay, fine. We'll buy it. And then it's a massive success. Autumn (3m 24s): That's crazy. Jesper (3m 27s): Yeah. And I think that's a good thing too, to keep in mind for us as authors, as Willy, when we write our books. And so on that, sometimes it just takes a long, long time and then success comes so Autumn (3m 38s): Assistance and belief in yourself and just keep trying until someone finally says yes, Jesper (3m 46s): Exactly. Autumn (3m 46s): Very nice. I like that. Oh, it's been good. I, I showed you pictures, but yes, my husband and I entered dog, went whitewater kayaking. It was so cute. Yeah. We've done some really crazy adventurous things with this music, current terrier. So he's, he's a little, he's supposed to be like Toto, but he's a little bit of a, he's a monster version of Toto. He's a little bit like five pounds bigger than Toto would be. But yeah, we went, we went kayaking as a family and it was just gorgeous fall weather. And that was right before it switched from being like 70 degree days to now. It's like in the fifties that I've got the wood stove going, but that's nice too. It feels like fall. Autumn (4m 27s): I can't complain. It's bit of kind of dice. I've been burning the candle at both ends though, because I, I, this is like my, why we're meeting and doing our recording. This is my afternoon slump time. And I'm trying with caffeine to get through it, but I am horrible. I get up at five and I am dead until about six o'clock and then my mind turns on them and I'm fine. And I find, I go through the afternoon and there's this slump. And then right around dinner time, I'll wake up and I'll be good to like 10. And I just can't change that rhythm in my body. It's been that way since I was a kid. And so yeah, I try, I keep myself awake right now. Jesper (5m 6s): Yeah. But, but I think actually, I don't know, but I have a theory that probably a lot of people have it like that because I know exactly what I mean. What do you mean? I can also be like in the morning, you know, getting up for something you like really tired and it's like, oh, it's early. And then you think, oh, then I'll, I'll be thinking to myself then, okay. Tonight, I'm going to go to bed early because I'm so tired and I need to catch up on sleep and so on. And I'll be tired throughout the day as well on those days. Not right today, but in general, I mean, if that happens right. But then once I get to dinner time and afterwards, then I start getting, I start waking up and it's just like, no, you don't want to go to bed. And then the next day, the whole cycle repeats itself. And it's just like, I don't know, but you're not the first one saying it. Jesper (5m 50s): And I have it the same way. I don't know if it's like something, probably not all EVERY everybody, but I think a lot of people, I like that they, they wake, my wife has the same thing she wakes up in the evening. I dunno. It's weird. Isn't it? Autumn (6m 6s): Maybe we are. But I'm also really good at, up until about one o'clock in the afternoon from like 6:00 AM to one o'clock. I am fine. I am full throttle, but it's like, I need an afternoon nap. I needed like at one 30 to two, I need like a little bit of a nap and I'd be fine. And maybe I should just put that in my schedule somewhere. And I would probably be so much better, but I'm usually pushing myself through it. Jesper (6m 30s): So if it goes quiet on UN, then the listener will know it's because you take a nap and then we should just, we just sit around here and quiet on the podcast, waiting for you to wake up and then we can continue. Autumn (6m 41s): I won't do that to you. I think we can make it through. Jesper (6m 45s): Okay. Okay. Narrator (6m 48s): A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, Jesper (6m 53s): I noticed this morning that we just about to reach 7,000 members in the Am, Writing fences, you Facebook group order. Autumn (7m 1s): That is so I knew we were getting close. It actually, it seemed like we hit 6,000 wait went from 5,000 to 6,000 really, really quick. The 6,000 to seven has been a little slower, but oh my gosh, that is so many people and so awesome. Jesper (7m 16s): Do you remember the early days Autumn? Autumn (7m 19s): I Remember when it was me making the group and then inviting a couple of Fantasy authors. I knew it. I hadn't even met you yet. Or maybe if I had, I didn't know you on Facebook yet. I only knew you on Twitter and yeah, it was just me and a couple of people. So yeah, I remember very much so. And it was me and some crickets. Jesper (7m 40s): Yeah. And it was called slate. The fences, the Facebook group. Autumn (7m 45s): That's right. I saw the, I actually still have the original logo, like the artwork I did for it. Way back when tucked away and like terrified. You're right. You're right. That'd be great. I will have to go and do that too. Especially if I happen to catch it at 7,000, I'll do a little celebration and like, oh my God, this was, this was when it was just me and like three other people, which I think are still members too. So that'll be, I will do that. Jesper (8m 13s): Yeah. That would be fun. I think for people to see what it used to look like. But the funny thing is also when you have this many members, because I had the, there was somebody posting a, and there's nothing wrong with this. I'm just mentioning it for the fun of it. So the people involved should not feel bad about it at all, but there was somebody posting whether or not it was allowed to ask for some better readers in the Am, Writing Fantasy, Facebook group. And then I posted a, or I replied to say that, yeah. As long as you don't ask people to sign up to an email list or you know that in, in, in other ways you are trying to, to get them on your list or earn money from it or anything like that, then it's fine. Jesper (8m 59s): And then somebody else replied to say, are you a moderator? Or have you checked this with the moderators? Because I'm not sure, sure. That's allowed. And then I replied, I'm one of the co-owners of the group, but this is what happens when you have so many people. Some people don't even know who you are. Right. Let's say, Autumn (9m 17s): But I think it says like when it says admin next to our name. Jesper (9m 21s): Yeah, yeah. Maybe they just made me laugh. She was asking me if I had checked it with a moderator. I like that. I don't think I need to Autumn (9m 32s): Our Authors. No, we run very tight ship, obviously tighter than we realize. Jesper (9m 40s): Yeah. So if you haven't joined yet head on over to Facebook search for Am Writing Fantasy in the group section, and you will find us. But if you don't like Facebook or you don't use Facebook, I should also point out how you can go to Am Writing Fantasy dot com and sign up for our email list. Through there, you will get information and you will get tips on writing. We share some world-building advice and much, much more that we actually don't share anywhere else. And the best way is to just go to so to Am Writing Fantasy dot com and then on the homepage, when you arrive, there is actually the free self-publishing success course. Jesper (10m 23s): So the easiest way to do it is just sign up for that. And then you're going to get a full cost for free. And once you have gone through all the course material, you will be automatically added to our email is so that's the best way to Autumn (10m 35s): Do that. Yes. Come join us Narrator (10m 38s): And on today's topic. Jesper (10m 41s): All right. So chapters, Autumn, what do we say about challenges? They are quite important. I guess if you want to build a house, that's what I, that's what I learned so far. Autumn (10m 53s): That's a very important if you're building a house, you can't build a book. Well, actually I'm sure there, I would say you can't build a book without Chapters, but I am one of those people that would, as soon as you tell me, you can't do something, I'm like, ah, I must try it. So I'm sure you can. I'm sure there is like stream of consciousness writing that James Joyce was probably like never used a chapter and it was just publishers that forced them on him. So you probably could write a book. It would just be really tough. It would be a Jesper (11m 24s): Mess. Oh, Autumn (11m 25s): It'd be such a mess. Don't do it. I think the best way to be organized. It was with Chapters and it gives you so many things you can do. I mean, you can change up your story. You can keep Readers interested, purposely hook them. So they stay up till 3:00 AM. Cause we're cruel to them. You can change point of view of your writing in third person, point of view. So Chapters are really important. There's a lot going on in them. Jesper (11m 51s): Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, it, it very easily starts sounding like science or something, this stuff, right? Like talking about how to do a chapter in the proper way. But, but I think honestly for start, we have to say like, this is our way of doing a chapter. It doesn't mean that it's the only way or the only right way at all. You might have other ways of doing it. Or maybe you hear some advice from somewhere else that you think makes more sense and then that's fine if it works for you, it works for you. Right. So we can only say that this is the way in all of you, that it should be done, but underlying all of you. Jesper (12m 36s): Okay. Autumn (12m 37s): Absolutely. And I guess to me, we have some social proof that we're not doing things badly. I mean, I have a ton of reviews of people saying I stayed up all night. I finished this book all the way through, or I didn't finish it all the way through, but that's only because it hit 4:00 AM and I'm supposed to go to work at six. So I had to wait until nine the next day when I finally called out a bed after calling in six and finished it at 10. So I don't think we're doing anything wrong because I've seen on both of our reviews that, you know, we have made Readers stay up to the wee hours of the morning to read our stories. And that's partially comes through by the chapters because if you mess up on a chapter and you have a hard end to one, if you don't pull the reader forward and they're like, eh, I don't care anymore. Autumn (13m 24s): I'm going to sleep. That's, that's where they take a break. If they get confused, lost, or you just don't have something that makes them want to flip the page. Jesper (13m 34s): Yeah. True. Absolutely. And when we are talking about Chapters, think of it as a mini story on his own. So by ministry, what I mean by that is that the character should be trying to achieve something just like the dog is trying to achieve something now. So that's in its own little mini story. There Autumn (13m 60s): Was a chapter break Jesper (14m 2s): That was a chapter break. That was a point of view chains. It was saying, Hey, it's my point of view. That's all right. Yeah. What I was trying to say is that this means that the character is trying to achieve something and you know, it shouldn't be so that the coach just sitting around in a coffee, shop, reading a newspaper or talking to some random other character. And honestly I have seen books where this sort of thing happens and you are wondering a bit like, why do I care about this? What's going on here? Right. A chapter should contain some sort of sense of conflict and also some sort of, well uncertainty to some degree, I guess you could say, it's something that makes you wonder what's going to happen next. Jesper (14m 47s): Right? Those should be the recipe for a good Autumn (14m 54s): Chapter. Exactly. It's to me, it's like, it's curiosity, your mystery. There's something going on where, whether it's the character who is curious, you know, is trying to solve something and trawls the reader along. Or if the reader is picking up clues and they want to see what's happening, or even just an action event, they either news that happens off screen or that's just received or, you know, it ends at a battle and someone might be wounded and you're like, I have to turn the page. You know, those are part of the chapters. And I think one of the things we're talking about Chapters as a building block of a novel, but there's building blocks in Chapters. You can have a chapter that it's an entire scene and you could have a chapter that's made up of lots of little scenes, maybe not too many. Autumn (15m 38s): You don't want to put in maybe 10 scenes into a chapter that might be a little intense, but two or three, it can happen. You can have scene breaks within a single chapter. And so those are important parts to remember too, if you approach a chapter and you just don't know what to do, or you not sure what's in it. Think of it as a scene. Scenes are different from Chapters, but a lot of people get them confused. Jesper (16m 1s): Yeah. So maybe put a few more words on that. Autumm okay. Autumn (16m 4s): Sure. Well, so it scene is an event that's happening and usually, you know, it's think of a stage and you have a stage set and you characters walk on, something happens and they walk off sometimes with a scene, you change point of view, but you often change rooms. You change other things that are happening within, but the reason they're combined into one chapter is because the chapter has its own goal. And to me, that's the most important thing. And we talk about this, We, I know you're going to bring it up. Well, we have a Plot development book and we do talk about Chapters in there. So that's a very good way. But to me, the first step in deciding what is making your chapter versus your scenes are the scenes that make up a chapter is a chapter, has a specific goal. Autumn (16m 52s): And I always look at it as like, I have a goal for the chapter as an author. There's a part of the plot. It is, it is unveiling. So it's part of the inciting incident. It is part of the reaction phase. So that's my goal as an author, but there's also the characters goal and that's the part that's moving the stories forward. And that's an important thing you want to make sure the character has a goal when that chapter begins. And you know, it's going to wrap up the end of that chapter is, and when that his goal is met or it's stopped. Jesper (17m 22s): Yeah. Let me put it into context to you because you mentioned our whole flooding guide book here, because in there we actually have, because now you're talking about character gold and so on. So I think just putting a bit of framework around it, the way we describe it in our book is that a chapter has five areas or you, you, you used the worst word building block before. So if we go with that five building blocks in a great chapter, so there is coach goal, there is a hook, there is conflict and Alima there's reaction and decision and there is the disaster. Yes. So by that, the idea is that you have a character who knows when the chapter starts, what he or she wants to achieve. Jesper (18m 10s): And this character then goes after that in one way on other that the reader will find fascinating or interesting. That's the hook pot. And then only it's not that easy to achieve what you want. And especially not. When you live life as a fiction character, you live in the worst nightmare sometimes. Yeah. So it's not that easy. And something is standing in the way and that's then causing the conflict, right? And once you have the conflict, then you have a reaction to what happened. And that will lead into a decision on how to proceed that the character makes. And in the end, we will then finish the chapter on a cliffhanger. Jesper (18m 54s): So if you can construct your chapter around those five steps, it will already be very interesting because you are showing the reader that this character, this is what the character is trying to achieve. Meaning that then the reader understands, oh, okay, this is what's happening. This is I, now I know what's going on. It's like, it's like when you enter a meeting in your day job, and there was no agenda and you have no idea what you're going to talk about it very quickly. It becomes very frustrating because like, why are we here? What are we trying to do? So putting that in front of the reader so that they understand what the character is trying to achieve, that's a good starting point. And then when you, you are making life difficult for the character and introducing the conflict and giving them something to react to, then it also humanizes the character because then you feel like, oh, okay. Jesper (19m 46s): I can relate to that. I see why they're reacting this way. Or are they getting frustrated or whatever it may be. It's not that a chapter, a good chapter has to have like dire consequences or something. It doesn't have to be like that. That's not what I'm trying to say, but more that there needs to be something at stake and something, as they could just mean that I don't want my brother to find this thing out, for example, or it doesn't have to be like fight scenes or anything like that at all. But when you have something at stake, you have a reaction to it. Then when you end the chapter on some sort of, some sort of cliffhanger, and again by cliff hanger can mean a lot of things. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's like a, in the middle of a fight or I think James W what is it called? Jesper (20m 32s): James Brown, John Brown. What is he called? The James Brown bet. James Brown. I think he has one where he ends the chapter with the, with the character opening a door, then he stops and you don't get to see what's inside. It that's a bit, I would almost say a lame, but okay. But it's a cliffhanger, but it doesn't have to be like that. It could just be like a cliffhanger could just be like, the character is wondering about something and you don't have the answer for it. And then you want to read on to figure out what is the answer. It could be all kinds of things. So don't say cliff hanger as like, meaning that you have to put some dire consequences on the table, every, in every chapter. Autumn (21m 12s): No, it's more like an, almost an unanswered question or an unfinished event. I think those are better way. And I do agree because we often call it, the chapter ends in a disaster, but it doesn't have to be a disaster. It is. Yeah. That's just maybe a typical way of doing it because often with hurdles, it is sort of a disaster someone's wounded, and you don't know what happens, but you could be in a lull or it could be a love scene or something. And someone walks into the ballroom or whatever, a vendor at the, the tourney or something, the next person walks in the love interest or something. And you just stopped there. And there was other people going, oh gosh, you know, there, he or she is. Autumn (21m 53s): And that's a cliffhanger because you're like, well, what will they say? What will they do you want to turn the page? It always should end on not wanting to turn the page. And it could be as simple as just receiving news, receiving a reading, finally, a letter that they've been holding in their hand and waving the entire chapter. They finally look and see what it says. And they're like, oh, oh my gosh, this changes everything. And of course you want to turn the page to find out what's going to happen next that's, what's important. Jesper (22m 24s): And what's so nice about that. Is that because of what you just explained there, you already have the hook for the next chapter and you also already know what the character wants in the next chapter. So it just adds another minister to the first story. Yes, it's so nice. Because then again, you can build the next chapter with a clear beginning, a clear middle, a clear, and it just makes sense, right? Autumn (22m 48s): It does. They build off of each other, which is why it becomes a whole story. They flow into each other with set happenings and events to see what it's going to happen next. And I always say like, as a writer, I always want to write the ending to a chapter. So excited that I want to write the first line to the next chapter. And so if you're that excited, the reader will be that excited. And I think that's, what's important. It's just, it has a flow to it and going even back to scene. So if you think about it as if there are these five or four aspects into a chapter, well, if you have the hook and then the character is doing something and they're going through the conflict or dilemma things, aren't going well. Autumn (23m 28s): And for some reason that just that character's point of view is done, and you do a scene break, the decision and action and disaster or cliffhanger could end up being in a different character's point of view. And that's sort of why you can have multiple scenes that fit into a chapter, but they still fit the chapter because you are still following that Hook, decision dilemma, the action emotion reaction, and then the cliff hanger disaster event that is unfinished, that you want to turn the page to see what happens to it. Jesper (24m 1s): I think the challenge faced by many writers is actually how to make that conflict part varied, because I mean, you cannot have a 400 page book where every single chapter has a fight in it or nothing. I mean, it could be either a physical fight, but it could also just be people arguing. I, I know when I started out writing at first, I had a tendency to create a lot of arguments and a lot of the chapters because it added conflict. So my line of thinking was good. But the thing is that it, it gets a bit tiresome if, if the characters are always arguing with somebody. Jesper (24m 43s): So I think personally, you know, your first spur of inspiration is in 99% of the cases going to be probably quite full of cliches, you know, and that, that's why we prefer at least to do a detailed chapter outline compared to a very loose one where, or even to compare to riding by the seat of your pants. Because I think that the problem is often that you, you keep beating the same old horse or on and on and on. Autumn (25m 22s): Yes, I think that's very true. And I, I think it also comes down to knowing your character really well, because you, as an author have, like I mentioned, you have a goal for what's happening in the chapter. And if you're trying to force things on your character, it's going to come across as artificial. And it's not as interesting. The stakes don't feel real. Something just feels off to the reader. But if you have a character and you give the character a goal, like you say, okay, this is going to be a hurdle. And you know, you're going to throw something horrible at the character. And you're like, okay, character, you'd go again. This is you're going in there. This is your goal. And this is what's going to happen. And then let the character figure out, you know, what in their world are they going to do to solve this? Autumn (26m 2s): Why do they want to solve it? Knowing your character really well, knowing how they'll react will help pull you through. And I'll also help the reader really resonate with the character. Cause there's a F you know, you want to feel that character trying to problem solve and get out of it on their own instead of being pushed forward, along by the author, because you need to go to the next scene. You can definitely tell when you're reading. Jesper (26m 27s): Yeah. And the, and of course the character arc is incredibly important in this whole conversation too, to make sure that you build in at certain points throughout the novel, in some chapters where you gradually showing on, of course, on less on less characters on a steady arc where they don't change. But otherwise that you have some chapters throughout the novel where you're gradually showing that the characters beginning to change. And we go in through it in great detail in, in our guidebook on, on how to plot a novel, but high level. It's often a good thing to start showing them, showing the reader, how the character actually insists on doing the same thing as they've always done, because that's how we work as human beings. Jesper (27m 16s): We only, we only start changing once we figure out that what I'm doing is apparently not working. And only once we realized that that's where we start changing, because otherwise we, we're not going to change. Human beings are lazy people. We don't want to change, but once we start, you know, we keep banging our heads against, into the wall because we keep doing the same thing and it doesn't work. Then at some point we will usually start questioning ourselves like, Hmm. I wonder if I could do something differently, then that's where you start seeing the change. So that's a good thing to keep in mind when you're writing as well with your chapters to have four, while the coach would keep doing the same thing and keep facing the same problem, like, you know, from a character arc perspective, like they keep failing basically. Jesper (28m 1s): And, and then gradually over time, they'll start trying to try to do some other things and get a different result. And thereby you solidify the change in the character. Autumn (28m 12s): Yes. That is very true in such an important aspect. And of course, when you say doing the same things as you don't mean like, you know, going and trying to attack the night that he's obviously not prepared to do, he's not going to do that three times in a row, but he are going to maybe have him pick three different fights or just always be in over his head, always react stubbornly or arrogantly and not us for help. And then finally, you know, there's going to be that moment where maybe it's usually called the dark night of the soul, that moment where, you know, something happens and someone's wounded or hurt or killed because of their stupid actions. And they finally go, next time, I'm going to ask for help because I don't want that to ever happen again. Autumn (28m 53s): But again, that's more the entire plot, but it's so true. Each chapter is just pulling the novel forward. And I did, I want to get back to it. You mentioned also speaking of, you know, not repeating, you said about not repeating like the same disaster, the same conflicts. And I also think is a really important not to repeat the exact same Hook or the exact same chapter ending. And those can be as simple as like you dialogue is a fantastic, like if two people are in the middle of a conversation, that's a neat chapter opening. And sometimes it's a really neat chapter ending, but you don't want to have every chapter opening being dialogue or every chapter opening being a description or even action. Autumn (29m 34s): All of those are things you should take notice of and kind of vary them throughout your novel. So that one maybe is a dialogue, but another was an action. Maybe one's a description, keep things varied and that'll help make your writing a little bit more interesting and will help remind you to keep things different with each one and, you know, challenge you, isn't Writing all about challenging yourself to become a better somebody. Jesper (29m 57s): Yeah, I would say so. I don't know. Are we missing anything? I feel like, I feel like that's pretty encompassing for, for How to Create Chapters. Autumn (30m 10s): I think so too. I be, and I can't think of anything else. The best thing to do is to check out, like I said, the plotting book we get into so much more detail on character arcs and plotting the whole novel as well as how to lay out your individual chapter. The difference between chapters and scenes and some good examples in there. So I think those are really, what's important to take a look at if you really want to go in depth, because there's a lot more to this and nailing your chapters and knowing how they build your story is going to one help you learn to write better. And you know, if you're doing well in your chapters, those are usually like when I was writing, I had writing goals. My goal was not a word count. Autumn (30m 51s): So I got Scrivener and it, it makes you, it allows you to do a word count goal. But I used to always be like, I want to write this many chapters this week. It's a nice, solid building blocks that helps you break down your novel. And two bites that are really, the reader is bites. The reader is going to stop and start at Chapters. They don't usually stop or start right in the middle of a chapter who wants to do that? That's because someone came in and like you have book from your hand or your Kindle ran out of batteries. That's when you stop in the middle of a chapter or if you're really bad, if it's really, really bad, baby, I don't know. Jesper (31m 27s): Yeah. I mean, the chapter's only pot, it's only one piece of the entire puzzle. So I'll book is called Plot Development and it is a very full step-by-step guy. You know, you you'll get everything in that book. You will learn about the character creation as well. You learn about the character arcs, how to build the entire novel, outline, how it affects the chapters and how to build those chapters and, and so on and so on and so on. So, so you're going to get everything you need in that one book. So we've added the link to that one in the show notes, if you are interested. So next Monday, we are talking about the evil within it's about your characters and how to explore them in greater depth. Narrator (32m 15s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/ Am. Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

Many authors have considered starting a YouTube channel. Autumn and Jesper tried for a couple of years - and failed. It's much harder than it looks. The questions is... will YouTube videos, focused on writing, actually help with fiction sales? The extremely successful YouTuber, Jenna Moreci, joins the Am Writing Fantasy podcast to offer advice and guidance. She knows everything there is to know about leveraging YouTube as a marketing tool for authors and writers.   Check out Jenna's books: The Savior's Champion: https://books2read.com/tsc/  The Savior's Sister: https://books2read.com/tss/    Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.  Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). Narrator (1s): You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Jesper (30s): Hello, I'm Jesper. And this is episode 148 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, and Autumn is taking care of some editing today. And once you use a way I've secured an amazing guest speaker for you, because today I'm going to talk to the very talented Jenna Moreci so welcome to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. Jenna, Jenna (51s): Thank you so much for having me. I'm super happy to be here. Jesper (54s): Yeah, it's a pleasure talking to you. And I just want to say for those who might not know, Jenna is a number one best-selling author of dark fantasy, and she also runs a very successful YouTube channel. So I couldn't think of anyone better to bring onto the podcast today to talk about YouTube for Authors, Jenna. Okay. Jenna (1m 13s): Well thank you. I'm super honored. Yeah. I kind of fell into YouTube sort of accidentally, or maybe not accidentally, but I didn't expect it to get to this level. So yeah, I'm, I'm super down to talk about it and everything that I've learned along the way. Jesper (1m 31s): Yeah, because wait, well maybe for context, I could just start out by saying Autumn and NAI and even myself before I sort of teamed up with Adam, tried my luck. If you want to call it that and running a YouTube channel and my God is difficult. And then Autumn and I tried for a while as well, probably like two years. And then we transitioned into podcasting and this is going much better to this, but the YouTube stuff is difficult. So yeah, it's, it's tough getting traction unusual. So I'm very going to be very curious during this episode here to sort of get your thoughts on it and maybe some tips and tricks for people who might want to try on their own to see if they can get a YouTube channel going. Jenna (2m 19s): Absolutely. I mean, I've been doing this for almost a decade now, so I've been, I've been around for awhile. I've made all the mistakes and you know, that's what you got to deal with in order to become successful. You got to mess up a few times. So I, I hope I can answer all of your questions. Jesper (2m 37s): Yeah, probably, but I don't know. Maybe we could just start a bit more on the, you know, not low side. I don't, that's not what you call it, but slowly and maybe, maybe you can just, yeah, a bit more about yourself and maybe put a more, a few more words on, on what you just said about why you started the YouTube channel in the first place. Jenna (2m 56s): So I have been wanting to be, you know, author since I was six years old, it's literally my lifelong dream. And around the time I heard what a lot of people, you know, are told when they're young, that's authors don't make any money. It's not, it's not a viable career. You should try something else. And so I started off in finance. I have a degree in business with a concentration in finance and I got a job in finance. I was a stockbroker and I hated it. It was driving me crazy. I, I just, there was a moment where I realized I CA like I can't do this every day of my life. I have to at least try to become an author. Even if it's just a side gig. I just need to know that I gave it a shot. Jenna (3m 39s): So at that point I started writing my first book and I started trying to build a platform. I researched the industry and, and I'm really glad I got a degree in business because I learned all about the business side of things and being an entrepreneur and creating a platform. And I started like most authors do with blogging. And I had a blog for a few years. It, you know, I had about 200 followers and I hated it. I hated blogging. I mean, I liked to write, but I like to write fiction. I don't like to write about, you know, normal life stuff. So I was blogging for a while. I'm working on my book, try to figure out a way to expand my platform even more. And a lot of people had told me, you should do YouTube. Jenna (4m 21s): You're funny. You're sarcastic. You give really good writing advice. I was also doing critiques at the time. So people were like, you should create a Writing YouTube channel. And like most introverted Authors. I was like, no, like there's no way I am. Yeah. The only way I'm sitting in front of a camera and putting myself on the internet like that, sorry, fast forward a couple years, my then boyfriend now fiance suffered a very terrible accident. He fell two stories and broke his spine. And I had to put, you know, I quit my job. I put everything on hold to be as caregiver. And when you go through something like that, it kind of changes your perspective on life. And you know how our time here, isn't guaranteed. Jenna (5m 3s): And I had paused working on my book. I had paused the blog and I just thought, you know what, like as he started to get better and I started to build my platform again, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to try YouTube. Okay. Like what have I got to lose? If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But I, you know, my, my time here is it permanent. So I got make an account and I started the YouTube channel, made a couple of crappy videos and started to get the hang of it. Yeah. I mean, that's how it always works. It always starts off with the bad videos, but I started getting the hang of it and I started off trying to be very professional and like, you know, like, you know, oh, I'm a dignified writer and that's just not really my style. Jenna (5m 46s): And no one was watching the channel. And so finally I said, you know what? No one's watching anyway. So I'm just going to be myself and I'm going to be goofy and I'm going to be custody. I'm just going to be my normal personality. And literally the very next video, my channel skyrocketed, I went from a hundred subscribers to nine to 9,000 subscribers in a week. And, and the rest is history. Now I'm at 260,000 subscribers. I really did not expect to be in this place. But yeah. And because of YouTube, I was able to make Writing and YouTube my full-time career. And I'm doing a whole lot better at this than I was as a stockbroker financially. I'm making triple what I made as a stockbroker. Jenna (6m 27s): So it all worked out. Jesper (6m 29s): All right. Yes. Do you think actually considering that it was quite some time ago since you started out, do you think there's a difference in starting, you know, running a YouTube channel today versus back when you did it, do you think, has that sort of, is it more saturated market had more difficult now? How do you see that? Jenna (6m 51s): Absolutely. I really got in at the perfect time when I started my channel, I looked for other writers on YouTube and I could only find two and their channels were very small and they were really young. And I was inspired by that because at the time I was like 28 and they were teenagers. And I was like, you know, what, if these teens have the courage to do this, that I have no, excuse, I'm a, I'm a grown woman. I have no excuse. And now after my channel kind of blew up, now, there are tons of writing channels on YouTube. So it's, I'm not going to lie. It's definitely harder to get started. Now, the key is, is to find a way to stand out and authenticity. Jenna (7m 34s): Like I said, I started off very professional, a very phony and I wasn't going anywhere. Right. And once I became my authentic self people, people really, you know, gravitate toward that. You know? So I think that if you want to stand out in this market, you really have to create quality content that is consistent and authentic because people want someone that they can relate to. And they feel like they actually know. Jesper (7m 60s): Yeah. Because I think reflecting back on the time that we spent on attempting to run a YouTube channel, I think once I reflect back to it nowadays, look, you know, couple of years since we transitioned into podcasting instead, I think I was very much focused at the point in time around probably thinking too much about how do you make a YouTube video that is engaging. And also because, you know, usually when people watch YouTube videos, at least as far as I've sort of in investigated or researched my way into, it's also about, you know, keeping people's attention in a YouTube videos. Jesper (8m 45s): It's very difficult. It's not like the same as a podcast here. We are talking to each other. People are probably doing the dishes while they're listening to this stuff. And you can sort of do other things, which is very nice. I podcasts a lot for this particular reason myself, but with YouTube, you're competing against them clicking onto Netflix instead of something, right. Jenna (9m 4s): So you really need to grab their attention. And I found that I was probably thinking, overthinking it too much about how to do that best rather the being authentic, like you're saying, but at the same time, your authenticity has to be attention grabbing, you know, I kinda like it to being on a date in the sense that when you're on. And I mean, like, I hate that analogy because dating sucks. But when you're on a date, the idea is to be yourself, but be the best version of yourself. So I'm very, I'm very honest and authentic on my channel. I talk about the fact that, you know, my fiance is disabled and has a chronic pain condition. Jenna (9m 49s): I talk about the fact that I have mental illness. You know, I'm not saying you should say all this stuff on a first date, but the point is real people know about my life. They know about who I am. I I'm giving them my honest, authentic personality, but you also don't want to be authentic to the point where it's like, okay, you know, this is, this is getting to be like a bummer or downer or overshare or something like that. You know, it's like being on a first date, you give them the best version of yourself. Again, I'm not saying that all the other authentic stuff I was talking about is the best version, but people appreciate the honesty, but at the same time, I'm not going to go create a video where I'm ranting because I'm having a bad day. Jenna (10m 30s): And I'm just like, oh my gosh, I had the worst day, I got a bad review and I did this. And you know, like I show them the sides of myself that are fun and quirky and goofy and, and people like that because they can relate to it. Jesper (10m 45s): Yeah. And I think for most part, people are watching YouTube because they want a bit of entertainment as well. I mean, they can certainly watch YouTube videos also to learn something, but unless it's a bit entertaining as well then. Yeah. Well, you're probably going to click on something else instead. Right. Jenna (11m 1s): Exactly. And, and I think that's the key is to be entertaining in your authentic way. I've seen some people because I'm, I've just, since I was a teenager, I've been a potty mouth. Like, that's just how I am my family jokes about it. My, I don't know if anyone used to watch the show Dexter, but there's a character on the show named Deborah who cusses a lot. And my nickname when I was a stockbroker was Deborah because of that, I just do what I taught. And so when I'm on my channel, you know, I'm, Kasie because that's my authentic self. Sometimes I will see other people talk to me and they'll be like, well, I'm trying to be like you, Jenna, you know, like I'm cursing and I'm doing that and I'm not getting followers. And I'm like, well, that's because you're trying to be like me. Like, I am not doing that to get the followers. Jenna (11m 43s): I'm doing that because that's how I talk. And in fact, they get people commenting. Like you're not being a proper lady, you know, like mad about that, but I'm just being me and people are, people can smell a phony a mile away. So it's not about emulating someone else's entertainment factor. It's about being your own kind of entertainment. There are channels that are really successful where the people are very prim and proper, but they have a cute kind of entertainment style or their sense of humor is deadpan. You know, you got to do it your way. Jesper (12m 16s): So would you say that some people will just struggle a lot to ever get success? You know, because I'm also, it's like, some people might want to be an actor or something. Right. But not everybody can be an actor because it's not a, it takes some, you have to have this kind of thing to be successful at it. And do you think it's the same for YouTube that you have to have some sort of, I don't know what you want to call it, but YouTube factor or something, you know, something that makes you entertaining to what your videos or the way you speak about things or whatever. Do you think everybody can do it? Or do you think it sort of requires some unspoken skill or whatever you want to go? Jenna (12m 58s): I think it's a little bit of both. I think you can absolutely learn to, you know, improve your craft. Its kind of like Writing. Like you can, you can learn the skill, you can improve your craft over time, but some people have a natural talent and that makes the improvement and skill like learning easier. It makes that aspect of it easier. And there are some people who really, really struggle with a certain thing. Like, like for example, I'm terrible at all things athletic. Like I have no coordination. I can't even, I can't even shoot the aliens on the buzz light year ride at Disneyland. Like I have no hand-eye coordination and I could practice as much as I want and I will probably still suck. Jenna (13m 39s): And that's just kinda how it is in a lot of activities in life. So I definitely think you can learn the skill and get better. Some people are more naturally inclined for it. Some people it's just not for them. And I think the problem is is that people don't give themselves enough time to learn where they fall in that spectrum. A lot of people will quit if the channel isn't making it after a month, it took me six months to get from a hundred subscribers to 9,000 subscribers. It took me six months to, to experience that leap. And now I'm at 260,000 subscribers. So you got to give yourself the time, but you also need to know when it's like, okay, this just does it for me. You know, I know people who've had their channels for years almost as long as me and they have, you know, less than a thousand subscribers. Jenna (14m 25s): It's like, okay, well maybe, maybe this isn't really, you know, your forte and there's nothing wrong with that. You, you know, we, failure is a part of success. You know, it's a part of learning what you're good at, where your strengths are, where your passion is. And quite often, if, if you're not good at something, a lot of times it comes to the passion element of it. Maybe your passion is, you know, better spent elsewhere. And so sometimes you just got to something a shot and realize if it's for you or not, but you got give yourself the time to figure it out. Jesper (14m 57s): Yeah. But I, I think actually that is an excellent, good point because you know, looking at our, our, you know, myON Autumn's YouTube channel, it's probably been there for like five, six years. There's 2000 subscribers on it. Most videos don't get many views because well we moved into podcasting. So it was just a secondary sort of channel. It just sits there. We don't do much with it anymore other than just uploading these podcast episodes. Right. Whereas the podcasts are getting a much, much, much more and more downloads, but, and I think as well, that it's a good point because we gave it a good run probably longer than we should have to be honest, but we didn't give up right away. We, we kept at it. But at some point we also just had a Frank discussion between ourselves and sort of said, this is not going anywhere. Jesper (15m 41s): Is it? And it's like, no, it's not okay. Let's do something else. We did our best. But I, I, I think as well that we are enjoying the podcast much more and that probably shines through, Jenna (15m 54s): Well, it's like me with blogging versus YouTube. I hated blogging. And I plateaued at 200 followers. I, you know, it, it's kinda like with writing, you know, when you are passionate about the story you're telling it shines through, you can see it in the words, my blog kind of plateaued, whereas YouTube, I get to be silly. I get to be animated. You know, it, it's a more enjoyable experience for me. It's easier for me than blogging. And I think that's why I was better suited for you too. But I think that's why my channel is way more successful than my blog is because you can see that I'm enjoying it more, this feels more on brand. Jenna (16m 35s): It feels more Jenna, you know? Jesper (16m 38s): Yeah. Yeah. So if people are thinking, okay, I think I want to have a go with this stuff. I want to try to do a YouTube channel and I want to be authentic. And I I'm gonna see if I can get a bit of success with this. Just on practical terms. What would you recommend in terms of, you know, you know, they, they need a bit of a recording equipment. They need some microphone stuff, you know, all the equipment things. What would you suggest in terms of just getting started? Because you can buy yourself crazy equipment if you want it. Jenna (17m 14s): Right. Well, when I first got started, I just used my face time camera, my laptop, microphone and natural lighting. It's a little bit of a different environment right now. So that might be a bit risky. But what I will say is that the quality of your content matters more than the quality of the video. So if you are going to start off with any equipment at all, I would recommend it being a microphone because if your voice is Peaky or annoying, that's, what's going to make someone turn off in terms of the quality of the video, it's going to be the audio that turns someone off people can tolerate, you know, video footage that is, you know, clear, unclear, or grainy. Jenna (17m 58s): They can tolerate that. They can tolerate bad lighting. They can't tolerate bad audio. So if you can get yourself a decent microphone, that's the equipment I would start off with. I know people who have really large channels and they're still filming on their iPhone, the, the, the image itself. So you don't need the, the camera and the lighting yet. You can park yourself in front of a window and do natural lighting. I would recommend this for when you're just getting started when you're just figuring out if this is for you. I say this because I know people who spent thousands of dollars right off the gate only to find out that their channel is just, you know, no one likes it. They're not good at it. It's, it's not for them. So, you know, start off with a microphone and let everything else be, you know, the homemade at the beginning as you grow, that's when you want to invest in a camera and lighting and things like that, as you start to see, okay, this is a viable option for me. Jenna (18m 55s): Outside of that, the editing of the video is very important. It's different than podcasts with podcasts. It's conversational, you know, all that good stuff on YouTube. Time is money. People have things to do, and you know, they could be watching Netflix or Hulu. They don't have to be watching you. So edit out the ums. If you need to script your content beforehand, I script all my videos because I am a rambler. So I script them all or else they'd be like, you know, an hour long of me just repeating myself, script your videos, edit out the ums and UHS, you know, make it, get to the point, make it, you know, concise, give them the quality information or, you know, content that you are here for. Jenna (19m 41s): Get rid of all the long pauses. That's the most important thing to start off with and of course being authentic. So if, if you're just getting started, those are the key things that I would recommend because the, even if you're funny and you've got a great personality, if you've got all of the pauses and lagging and the stumbling over words in there, it'll totally destroy the funny it'll destroy the entertainment factor. So get yourself a good editing program. And it's great because a lot of them are free. You know, I movie comes with, you know, apple products. I, I use I movie for like 75% of my editing. And I, and I've been doing this for years. You know, you don't, you don't need to get the fancy stuff right out the gate. Jesper (20m 22s): No, exactly. My, my oldest son just bought a, some editing software. I think he paid like 80 bucks for it or something. And it's, it's very good. I know. So it's not even that expensive, at least that pot, the cameras can be expensive, I imagine, but at least editing software, that's not that bad. Jenna (20m 38s): Yeah. I, I ha I now use I movie alongside final cut pro final cut pro was pretty affordable. And I basically just use that for all the overlays and texts and little doodads that flow on the screen. But in terms of just trimming your video down and getting the sharp cuts and getting out all the crud that you don't need it and your content, something like I move, he works just fine. And I believe PC has something, another free program, but I'm not, I don't, I'm not familiar. Jesper (21m 6s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but then there was also things like thumbnail images, titles of the videos, keywords and that sort of thing. So do you have any good tips when it comes to those things Jenna (21m 20s): For thumbnails? I would recommend something eye catching, you know, funny faces always work. I usually am doing a goofy face in my thumbnails text that, you know, you know, it's gonna catch your attention. When I do my trope videos where I talk about the worst tropes. Oh, right. Something like your romance book sucks. You know, it's just like, it catches people's attention. I make a disgusted face, you know, bright colors, things like that. The title is something that a lot of people mess up and it really hurts their place in the algorithm. People are always trying to make their title stand out. You know, like the clickbait title that time has sort of passed. Jenna (22m 4s): And by that, I mean, you can make your title stand out without it being click baity, without it being like I'm pregnant with an alien. You know what I mean? Like be specific about what your, your video is about, because the idea is you want to get in the algorithm. You want people who are typing in, for example, if I were giving tips for writing a first draft, you want people who are, people are not typing pregnant alien baby. They are typing Well, you never know, but you want to attract the people who are typing in first draft. So put that in the title. You know what I mean? Like if you're, if you're talking about romance novels, you want people who are typing in romance novels. Jenna (22m 48s): So you say what your video's about. And a lot of people don't do that because they think it's not catchy enough, but it's like, it's, you know, go with the common sense title. And then as you work, you'll see that certain words perform better than others. For example, book performs better than novels. So in a lot of my titles, I will say like how to write a romance book, as opposed to how to write a romance novel. YouTube gives you all these analytics. So they make it really easy to figure out like what, you know, what you should be typing and what works. There's also free platforms that you can use that show you, you know, how keywords know perform a lot of my videos, if it has writing or writer in the title, it performs better than videos that don't have writing or writer. Jenna (23m 32s): People like lists, you know, 10 best, 10 worst. And so a lot of my videos have that, you know, and of course, you know, best and worst. These are these, those are sort of the click baity words, best worst. You know, it kind of creates a hierarchy. People like the idea of, Ooh, this might be juicy. There might be drama here, you know, and that, and that's where that comes into play. Jesper (23m 55s): Yeah. Do, do you do any research when it comes to sort of the topics of your videos? So what should you talk about next week and the week after and so on? Or, or do you just go with what you feel like talking about Jenna (24m 7s): A little bit of both, but mostly the former, I'd say it's 75% research and 25% of what I feel like. And by that, I mean, you know, I will, I, about every six months I go through my videos and I see how they're performing. And I look for trends. I also have a wonderful assistant who helps me with that as well. I know not everyone is starting at a place where they can have an assistant, so, right. So I've been, I've been doing this for years. I did it on my own for years. Trust me, you can do it. YouTube makes it super easy, but I go through the videos and I see which ones performed the best, which ones performed the worst. I look for trends. And then I, I, you know, sort of plan my YouTube schedule around that. Jenna (24m 48s): So for example, my best performing videos by far, or my trope videos, you know, the 10 worst romance tropes, the 10 best romance tropes, the 10 worst scifi tropes, et cetera, those performed the best. You don't want to make your entire channel, just that thing, because then it becomes, you know, a one trick pony. It's not, you need, you need variety. You know what I mean? So you want to offer variety. So I try to mix it up with that kind of content, along with the second and third best kind of content. And then w when I plan my videos, you know, I, I know what performs best. And then I just think, okay, of all this kind of content, what do I most feel like talking about right now? So I give, I give myself a pool of the best performers, and then it's like, what am I in the mood to discuss? Jenna (25m 32s): And then I will pick and choose from there every once in a while, I will do a video that isn't as well performing, but I really enjoy it. Or the diehard fans enjoy it. A perfect example of this is my unboxing videos about once every other month, I unboxed presence and books and goodies that fans send me in the mail. They are by far my lowest performing videos, but they are the favorite videos of my diehard fans. The people are all about the brand, all about the platform who really love to support me. They are constantly like, when's the next unboxing video coming out. So for me, it's fine that they're not as high performing because it makes the people who've got my back no matter what it makes them happy. Jenna (26m 16s): So I'm happy to deliver that content to them, but yeah, Jesper (26m 20s): Once in a while, Jenna (26m 22s): Right, exactly about once every other month. And it's fun for me. I mean, I get to basically have Christmas all the time. I enjoy it. So, Jesper (26m 31s): Yeah, for sure. I understand that. But there was one thing I was wondering that I, that I definitely added to my list of things that I wanted to ask you because, and I don't know if this is true or not. So this could just be my, you know, me misunderstanding the situation or miss calculating or whatever you want to call it. But I have always been wondering, because when you have all kinds of different authors often have, you know, the ones who have YouTube channels, they will mostly like you do as well. They will talk about writing more as almost, it can be fun like you do it, but, but it'll be writing advice kind of information more, I would say, mostly targeting people who are interested in writing, meaning other authors and so on. Jesper (27m 20s): And I've always been wondering when it comes to actually selling fiction books. If somebody wanted to start a YouTube channel and the stuff you have to talk about is writing, because that sort of makes sense. Does it actually help on selling fiction books or is it more like a different audience that you're building and therefore you're building like a business on YouTube Prada and then you have fiction sales over on the other end, or what's your experience there? Jenna (27m 47s): It w it can help if you do it the right way. And by that, I mean, I write dark fantasy action, adventure and romance. I write adult fiction. My channel is geared towards writers and readers in that group. By that, I mean, you know, like I mentioned before, I have a bit of a potty mouth. My books feature cursing. If you do not like a potty mouse woman, you're not going to like my books. Also, sometimes people will be like, well, you know, if you, if you talked a little bit different and you made less raunchy jokes, younger people could watch your channel. And it's like, okay, well, that's not my target audience at all fiction. Jenna (28m 27s): I don't write children's books. I've had people be like, can you make your videos better for second graders? And I'm like, well, seventh graders are not going to read my book about the fights or the death tournament. You know, so no I'm not doing that. You need to gear your channel toward that segment. And a bulk of my videos are about dark fantasy fantasy. They're about romance. They're about adventure fight scenes. I gear my content specifically toward what I enjoy, what I'm writing, what, and thus, obviously I'm going to attract a ton of writers, but typically if you're writing FANTASY, you like reading FANTASY. And I actually have a huge audience base of people who don't write at all. Jenna (29m 8s): They just think I'm funny, which I really appreciate it. And they're like, I don't write. I just think you're funny. And I like your books, you know? So I've had acquaintances in the past where they, it didn't translate well, they had a YouTube channel. It didn't translate well to their book sales because their channels brand was completely off from what, from the book they were selling, you know, like the, the channel being very professional, being very all ages friendly. And in the book they re they released as like raunchy. And you know what I mean? Like you, right. And they've attracted the wrong audience. And people are like, whoa, this is, you know, this is, this is dirty and salacious. And it's like, well, you didn't attract the right audience. Jenna (29m 50s): You know? So it, you have to be aware of who you want, reading your books. That's gotta be who you make your channel for. You know? So, you know, if me dropping an F bomb, bothers a person and prevents them from subscribing, that's great because they wouldn't like my books, you know, so I don't need them. I don't need them in the audience. So it's all about being very cognizant of your brand and the image that you are releasing. Jesper (30m 16s): Okay. Very cool. Yeah. And I said to you, before we started recording that I actually asked in our Am Writing Fantasy Facebook group, what people wanted me to ask you, Jenna. So there was quite a number of questions, but I tried to pick the ones that I sort of thought was on topic of what we're talking about here, and also would be a more general interest to more people than maybe the person asking. So, so if you're ready, I would like to just go through some of these questions with you here. I have five for you. Jenna (30m 50s): Okay. Go for it. Jesper (30m 53s): Because Anita asks, if it's worth starting a YouTube channel, if you haven't published anything yet, or is it better to wait until you're ready to launch your novel? I thought that was a good question. Jenna (31m 5s): Absolutely started before. If you're starting it after you're, it's like an uphill battle because the book is already out and, you know, unless you have a big platform already and you're, you're, you know, you've got good sales and things like that, but usually people are starting the YouTube channel in order to, you know, to, to get the sales in order to boost their presence. So if you've got a big platform, you can start gentle whenever you want. But if you're doing this for the sake of selling a book, definitely start the channel before one, because it takes years to build an audience. And you don't want your books sitting, collecting dust published for years. Jenna (31m 45s): And then finally it starts to get sales. And to, if you start the channel after, and then you direct people to the published book and it has no reviews and it's not performing, people are going to be like, oh, well, what's wrong with this book that no one's buying it. You know what I mean? So it's better to start it before that said, I'm saying like a YouTube channel in general, sometimes people, you know, I give writing advice and I also make satirical con content about writing. I started my channel before I was published and I was qualified to give writing advice because I've been in studying storytelling. At that point, I'd been studying, writing and storytelling for about 20 years. Jenna (32m 25s): And I had been doing giving critiques for other writers. They asked me to create the channel. I've had poetry published and things like that. You know, I, I had some, you know, you know, some, some content that made me like qualified to give the writing advice. Sometimes people hop on YouTube and give writing advice because they see that other writers are doing it. And they don't really feel like they're qualified, but they're doing it because it's, you know, what's going on. If you don't feel qualified to do something, don't do it. You can make a video about something else. You can just track your writing journey. You can talk about, you know, the, if you're going traditionally could talk about the Query process or something like that. You, you don't have to give writing advice. So if that's your concern about starting before you're published, then make your video about something else or make your channel about something else. Jesper (33m 11s): Yeah. And I think what you're saying that tracks very much with what Autumn. And I usually say, because we not, we don't get the question specific to YouTube, of course, but we often get the question about mailing lists. Like, do you start the mailing list before you publish the books or after you publish the books? And we also always say started we'll we'll we'll before, because that's the only way you can get enough people on that list. So you can actually sell some books once you do publish it later on. So it's never too early to begin. It's usually our moderate rare. Jenna (33m 41s): Yes. And people always think, well, I have nothing of value to say, and it's like, don't sell yourself. So short, of course he has something of value to say, you just have to have the confidence and you've got to figure out what your voice is and what it is that you want to say. If you have, if you have the ability to write a book, which is obviously what you're trying to do, then you have the ability to do a mailing list or a YouTube channel, you know, just got to figure out what your voice and messages. Jesper (34m 8s): Yeah. Okay. So let me move on to Stephanie's question, because Stephanie wanted to know how much time you actually spent on marketing, your books, working on your YouTube channel and writing new books. Like, do you split your time, like 20% marketing and 20% writing on and so on? Jenna (34m 24s): Oh, I've I couldn't tell you. I honestly don't know. I work about what I can say is I work about 10 to 12 hours a day. Usually it's gotten a little bit better now that I have an assistant, but it really varies. It's I wish that I could give a straight answer, but it's hard for me to track because I'm also a caregiver. My fiance suffers from a chronic pain condition, and he's in a lot of like recovery programs to try and build back a strength. So everyday for me is very flexible. Every week is completely different. So it's really hard for me to track how much time I spend doing each thing. What I can say is that I usually try to devote a week every month to YouTube. Jenna (35m 6s): And by that, I mean, a cumulative amount of time of scripting content for a month filming content for a month. And my assistant does the editing and then I do the little doodads bells and whistles the effects and uploading it. So that is the one thing I can say with certainty about one week out of every month is devoted to my YouTube channel. And then the rest of it is a hodgepodge of writing and marketing. Jesper (35m 33s): Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So an angel also asked a question that, but I am going to paraphrase it a bit here just to sort of boil it down and get to the point of what I think more or less she was asking, but she wanted to know how you basically built such a great following on YouTube. I think you've talked a lot about it already, and maybe there was also a part of you saying that you got in at the right time. So, but I don't know if you have anything more to add on, on, on that question. Jenna (36m 6s): I really think it's because people appreciate, you know, someone being themselves and being authentic because a lot of the things that I get, you know, cause obviously I'm a woman on YouTube. I get trolls, I get hate comments. A lot of the things that I get hate comments for are the reasons that people, you know, subscribe, they, you know, appreciate that. I'm a straightforward woman on the internet. They appreciate that. I'm myself. Even if it's not always those flattering version of myself, they appreciate the fact that I'm willing to dress up like a pizza or a hot dog. And my channel is if it makes people laugh, like I, you know, being yourself really goes a long way. And also one thing I didn't touch on is, you know, learn and evolve. You know, if you look at my very first videos, they are not the same as they are now, you know, I've upgraded you, you constantly have to learn, okay, how can I make this better? Jenna (36m 53s): How can I improve? You know, I now have professional lighting equipment. I now have, you know, professional camera and all that stuff. I I'm looking for ways to improve the effects to improve the editing, to, you know, looking for what my audience wants more of. Do they want more giveaways? Do you know, do they want more interviews? I'm I'm constantly asking my audience. Okay. What do you want me to talk about? You know, so I think that's really important too. Sometimes people get complacent and they get comfortable and then they never branch out and improve. And when you do that, you plateau. Jesper (37m 28s): Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. I, we still, I think we have like probably, I don't know, maybe 200 videos or something on our channel and I can promise you, I do not dare go back and watch the first one. It's horrible. Jenna (37m 43s): My first one is long since been deleted. It's like, but I mean like at the time it worked, you know, at the time, but like, and that's another thing is like, give yourself time to suck. You know, everyone is they're so they're so embarrassed to post their first video. They're like, it's going to suck. It's like sorted mine and look where I'm at now I've got 260,000 subscribers. Like it's going to suck for a while. You're you're just shaking off the cobwebs. It's okay. Just get into the, like, get into the flow. You're just embrace the fact that you're going to suck at first and that's fine. It's all just, yeah. Jesper (38m 13s): Yeah. It speaks to everything about our personal YouTube, a strategy that we didn't even, we even not even deleted those ones, the old ones they're still there. It's just there. Jenna (38m 23s): Well, to be fair, it took me years to delete my, Jesper (38m 30s): Yeah. So Rob also was asking a question because he was wondering if organic growth is a business model for YouTube, rather than paying for advertising. Jenna (38m 41s): I've never paid for advertising for my channel. So I'm going to say organic growth, but I'm not speaking from a place of personal experience because I've never paid for advertising. I do know other YouTubers who pay for advertising. I even, I mean, we see it all the time. Some of them have really big channels and some of them, it doesn't really look like the advertising has done a whole lot for them. I think it, it really depends on, on the strategy behind it. You know, if your ad sucks and isn't interesting or engaging people probably aren't gonna be interested, but as someone whose entire growth happened organically, then you know, I'm all for that. Jesper (39m 22s): Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What you just said about placing ads and stuff, this complete detour here, but it just reminded me that it was, I think a couple of weeks ago, usually when I exercise in the morning, I listen to music on YouTube. And then of course, because I'm exercising, I can't click the skip button for when the abs pops up and then this ad popped up and this guy was talking and talking, it just went on and on and on. And I was wondering, when does this commercial stop? And then I looked at my phone and it was, it said there was 45 minutes left. And I was like, what? This is an ad what's going on? You can't have an ad for 45 minutes. Jesper (40m 1s): Oh my God. Jenna (40m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean like, you know, the, a lot of people, they do not do the research and I understand that writers are a creative bunch, but it's a business. This YouTube is a business. You know, selling books as a business marketing is a part of business. Do do the research. That's why I, you know, even though I ended up veering off from finance, I'm really glad I went to business school because it prepared me for self publishing my novels and starting my YouTube channel. And so do the research before you spend money on ads, make sure you're, you know, spending it wisely. Jesper (40m 35s): Yeah, for sure. I have one last question and this not, this one is not sort of directly related to being a YouTuber, but I thought I wanted to include it because the first part is just something that I always find interesting. But then the second part is just a bit, bit of a weird and funny questions. Yeah. I think she was just having a bit of fun, but Terry wanted to know first, how much plotting you actually do for your books and Autumn. And I have written a guide book on how to plot novels. So I'm always interesting hearing that, but, and then she added. And could you also ask Jenna if their cyborg queen would make an Alliance with a chaos potato? Jesper (41m 15s): I have no idea what that means. Maybe you do. Jenna (41m 19s): Okay. So I'll start with plotting. I do a ton applauding. Like I'm on my channel. I am like the outline queen. I'm just like everyone knows that I'm always going to give advice that upsets the pants there is. If you're a pantser, that's fine. I just, it's not for me, but I, I, I, my outlines are hefty. Like my outlines are 30 pages long. I plot everything out. I have a method with no cars and organizing for me, people say that plotting and outlining ruins the fun or excitement for me, it is the fun and excitement because it's like putting together a puzzle and it's like, how is it going to turn out? You know, like, I, I love it. I, for me, it's a very creative part of the process. Jenna (41m 59s): And it's one of my favorite parts. So I'm very heavily into plotting apps for the cyber queen thing. So cyber queen is, is my nickname as a delegated by my audience. My nickname in college was cyborg. And I mentioned it in a video and it blew up. And now in the cyber queen, I would, I would be open to an Alliance with a chaos potato. If the, if the terms and conditions were equal and fair, we can get into it. We just, we need to make sure we're on the same side. Okay. We, we have the same beliefs in world domination. Jesper (42m 37s): Yeah. And also the word chaos. There might be a bit concerning if you're looking at an Alliance, you know, with, with something chaotic. That's I don't know how trustful is that Jenna (42m 49s): Exactly. That's why we need to have a meeting and discuss what, how chaotic is this potato? I need to know. Jesper (42m 57s): Yeah. I don't even know what I was thinking. Ks potato is that maybe something Jenna said in a past video or something, because it felt so odd. Like kid, where did you get that from? I don't know. Jenna (43m 9s): I just imagine a chaos. Potato is like a mashed potato. That's been like splattered across a room. That's a chaos potato. Or that just might be a dead potato. Jesper (43m 17s): Well, maybe it's one of, maybe it's more like you open the door to the room and throw it inside and close the door. Maybe that's what you do. Jenna (43m 26s): But then that grease was splattered. That's a violent potato man Jesper (43m 33s): And people screaming and stuff like that. Well, okay. I asked him I'm at my end of my list of questions for you Janet today. And I w is there anything sort of, I should have asked you that I didn't some very good voice that we never got to? Jenna (43m 53s): Where can everyone buy my books? How about that? Jesper (43m 57s): Of course, of course. Jenna (43m 60s): So right now I'm in the middle of the Savior series. The first two books, the saver's champion and the Savior sister are available wide all over the place at all, major retailers, they are number one bestsellers in dark fantasy romance. The Savior Sheffield was voted one of the best books of all time by book depository, which basically was the highlight of my life. I will never get over that. So yeah, pick them up. They're great. If you like your books filled with magic and steamy swooning, us and stabby stabby die die, then there are the books for you pick them up today. Hey, Jesper (44m 36s): Excellent. Yeah. And if you, you, you can also send me a link to where people can pick up your books or where you want them to go to Jenna. Then I will definitely put it in the show notes so people can just click through from there. And it will also go into the description field on YouTube. If anybody's watching there and then they can go and check out your book. So feel free to send me that link. Jenna, Jenna (44m 58s): Thank you so much. Jesper (45m 0s): And thank you for coming and having a chat here and offer all your advice and expertise today. I appreciate that, Jenna. Jenna (45m 8s): Thank you for having me. It was so much fun. Jesper (45m 12s): All right. So next Monday, Autumn, we'll be back and we're going to do one of our popular and some people call them dreaded worst top 10 lists. See you then. Narrator (45m 24s): If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/ Am. Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

Are you writing a fantasy novel? Do you need to name way too many characters? Not sure where to start?In this week's episode, hosts Kristina and Liz give a few tips on how to tackle this very specific writing problem.Follow us on Twitter: @howtowinnanoJoin our Discord server: https://discord.gg/u92vfhgAYmBecome a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/howtowinnano

Sure, you've heard about beta readers, but why do they help improve your writing so much? And what's the best way to utilize (and organize!) their help? Join Autumn and two special guests, Pam Burleson and Paul Kilpatrick from Betabooks, as they talk about how beta readers can be such an asset, how best to use and find them, and how they created Betabooks to help authors learn to ease into the intimidating realm of asking people to read your book. PLUS, grab the 25% off coupon on Betabooks! Use AWF when you enroll in a paid plan on Betabooks at https://betabooks.co/. Check out the articles Paul mentioned on ​How to Run a Beta Read and How to Find Readers who will Love your Book. And don't forget to check out Pam's Beta Jam (PBJ) and submit your book if you'd like to have it considered! Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.   SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.   Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.  Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). Narrator (3s): You're listening to The Am. Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Autumn (31s): Hello, I'm Autumn. And this is episode 135 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And today Yesper is off on vacation in Denmark and having hopefully a lovely time. And instead I have with me two very special guests. We have Pam and Paul from beta books. Welcome to the podcast. Pam (55s): Thank you. It was great to be here. Autumn (58s): So I, I, I sent this in an email when I asked if you wanted to join me, that a, my niece actually is responsible for having found you and introduced me and I've set up an account and started playing around. But I have yet to understand the full breadth of beta books. So I'm looking forward to hopefully of crash course, but first, please, please introduce yourselves and a little bit about, you know, how you found or you writers. I didn't even find much information on beta books and your backgrounds other than a really cute blur up at the bottom of the website that made me want to desperately reach out to you. Pam (1m 36s): Yeah. So my husband, Andrew is the third, have our little triumvirate here. He's a programmer and Paul and Andrew and I are all friends and Raleigh, Andrew wrote a book and had trouble getting anybody to read it. And then when people did read it to beta or whatever, he had trouble finding all the feedback. He was tired of that. So we decided to build it all so that he wouldn't read Andrews' book until Andrew build the thing. And so he did all right. I know, but at work, I'm not sure of Paul wanted it to work, but it did. Yeah. We've been going since then. Pam (2m 17s): And the reason the books exist is to make it easy for writers to run their beta, to send their, their documents out securely, to, to readers because of the document doesn't even go out, its all on one side. So there's no PDFs or other documents floating around the feedback has all their in one place for it to be sorted and mark and yeah. So the idea of their just to make and easy way for, for all authors to do that. So I M right now I handle the customer support and we Paula and I have done or conferences together and not this last year, obviously, but no, we did. Paul (2m 60s): We did it. We did at digital conference together. We did an online conference. That's pretty much it. I mean, technically speaking, a, one of the big headaches for Andrew was that when you did find a group of people, he just emailed them a word doc. And then he heard back from a number of people saying, oh, I can't open this. And so we sent it in a different format and then he started getting feedback via a series of emails, each person sending their own kind of email thread. And then he began making corrections and he sent out a new drafts to some people. And he ended up in this situation where he couldn't figure, he couldn't Colgate all this feedback from all of this emails, figure out who had, which draft and figure out what feedback he'd already used in making revisions in his draft. Paul (3m 45s): And he said, well, this is a, this is a data flow issue. And that's kind of what software is ideally suited to solving. So I bet I could do this. And we were sitting around at dinner and he said, does that sound like a good idea of Paul? And I said, that sounds like a fantastic idea. In fact, I won't read your book until I can read it on the software. So I didn't just get asked to read a book and say, know, make me a better tool to do it. Autumn (4m 10s): I absolutely adore that, that your husband is like, I had a problem and solve that because as it is definitely a problem that author's have of, especially as Yesper And I, as you heard it from the intro, you know, as we've come out with more books last summer, we released three NonFiction's and we were doing them all at the same time with different teams of beta readers, you know, 40 here, 30 here, 70 they're. And to get the feedback and to do the, all my life, I thought I was just going to go insane. Cause I'm the format or of the two of those. I'm the software person and our side of the business. So yeah, I was just, I think it must have ooze out to my family that my niece was like, Hey, have you seen this platform? Autumn (4m 59s): And as soon as I saw that, yeah, it's like people come to you and you know where they are so that you don't do formats one day and then two days later, someone else, since you something else, and you've done so many edits, you can't leave. You're like, did I do this, this error they found? Or did I not? Oh my gosh. Paul (5m 16s): So it is. And so you just described exactly, essentially the S the, the, the work flow issue that Andrew had in that we set out initially to solve. And then over time, we were in basically in a, sort of a semi open beta for over a year, just inviting authors and telling authors they can invite their friends. And that's when we began to get more and more feedback about, oh, I have this problem and all have this problem at some, like, the formatting issue was a very interesting one for us. I know we've talked to a bunch of people, but we wanted to make reading books easy on a phone and on the computer. And so we basically said, this is pre formatic. This is a prepress tool. So we do dynamic formatting on pretty much everything. Paul (5m 58s): Cause we have so many people reading on phones. I think over it's over 90% of beta readers are doing at least some of their reading on phone. So that was really important for us. Autumn (6m 9s): Wow. That always impresses me partially because I have bad eyesight. I've had M PRK, which is like LASIK done, but, and I starting to see it starting to phase out just a little bit, but it's been a decade. So I mean, I can, I used to only be able to see literally three inches and then the world was blurry. So I'm happy to have 25 20 is fantastic, but I cannot read on a phone to save my life. I get an important email and I'm like, where's the computer. I just need computers. But it is amazing that people, you know, they're they got younger eyes, I suppose. I know, but so good. No, go ahead. And do you think a lot of things, well, I think a lot of people that are also Paul (6m 50s): Are busy, so their reading, while they're waiting to pick up their kids on there and you know, they're like, oh, we need something new and you finish the book you have in your car. You're like, oh, I'm a Bader waiting for so-and-so. I can just pick it up. I'm waiting in a waiting room somewhere. I'm in line at the grocery store. So we hear a lot of stories like that from people saying, oh, wait, this is so easy. I can read a little bit here. Like, like using any of your e-readers as well. Autumn (7m 11s): Oh yeah. He just stuck at little league practice for the next hour and a half or something. So you're kind of whipped out the book. If we just know I'm taking fixers, honey really is what I'm doing. We were all good. Parent's at heart. Oh. And this sneaky one, but that is fantastic. So you've mentioned that it, you know, you are in beta testing and everything for a while. So when did you, when did this happen? Where did it? And Andrew have this book in this idea and he started developing it. Oh, wow. So, yeah, but not that, no, that's fantastic. Paul (7m 45s): And when did you move? So we, Pam (7m 49s): We left and 2017 left Raleigh in 2017. Paul (7m 52s): So it was 2016 when we started. Pam (7m 55s): Right. And I think we, we launched Paul (7m 58s): Into like the public and then in 18. Pam (8m 0s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Autumn (8m 2s): I see. I love stories like that because I think being on the computer and I have, my dad was into computers. My nephew is a coder and I dabble enough to break things and fix them on my own. And so I think it's important for people just like with writing a book. So many people don't realize, you know, some authors. Yeah. They seem to be able to whip them out. And like five days, I know that's probably an insane, but you know, you know, it seems to be a month or two, they released 12 books a year. And for others it's over a year. I mean, I know I've had people ask my first series, which literally they all talk all day. Every single book took me or it took me a year of those a year of my life. And they asked for free and you are like, Hey, it was a year of my life. Autumn (8m 45s): So I think that's fantastic to know, you know, how to code this website. And it looks, it is look very lovely on the surface, which is fantastic. That takes a lot of it's that takes design skill. It takes coding skill. You've got to be able to click a button and it actually does something without breaking. So a couple of years' seems so incredibly reasonable to me. Paul (9m 8s): And how much, like a lot of authors, I mean, we were both working our regular jobs and this was something we did on the side and this is still a fairly small kind of operation. It's something we do because we're passionate about the community and the role that we think finding beta readers and connecting with readers plays and kind of an author's journey. Yeah. Autumn (9m 28s): Do you want to get into the beta readers and you can finish what you're about to say, Pam, but I also want to talk about is so used to, or not authors. I have to know how you met. There is a story. They're how you got sucked into the reader universe, which is a wonderful place to be. Yes. Pam (9m 44s): So goodness. So we, we met because we lived next door to each other. I mean, I have missed calls my mom from him. I met his mom, Melissa, and we became friends and then I was hanging out at her house and this is how I remember it. Well, and then I met you and then we were going to the same church. So Andrew met Paul and I was over at Melissa's house a lot with my kids and Paul, you, you have a history in the publishing business. So, Paul (10m 18s): Okay. So I worked in publishing right into college and I did a co-write some stuff. And so I work in film production and then all sorts of theater a lot. So I've actually written plays and produced plays. So writing is been a big part of stuff that I've done. I'm not like a spot, an aspiring author. Let's just not really one of the things that is a passion of mine. I have I'm in the fourth book of a non fourth draft of a nonfiction book. And I mean, it's really more kind of, of venting exercise for me, I've realized over time and then probably ever gonna be for people. Pam is leaving out of that. I think eventually we found out that we both like similar books, then we started lending each of their books. Paul (11m 0s): And then someone gave Andrew I think, risk legacy, which is one of these board games that you play for eight months. Yes. And, and then we all started playing that Andrew and I and a couple of other friends and, you know, as risk is, it was one of those rage inducing either you love each other or hate each other by the end of the things. And most of us love, hated each other. And then we ended up and then we started playing D D and we just kinda kept doing stuff. And I'm, and then I think maybe a couple of years later, Andrew did NaNoWriMo, which his, where he wrote the book that he ended up wanting to beta through beta books. Paul (11m 43s): Well, that's fantastic. Him and Andrew are married. So that helps. So that's how they know each other. Pam (11m 48s): Well, why not say that? Yes, yes. Yeah. And know I am a professional musician. So I come at the creative business from a slightly different angle, but I have learned is you can't make it unless you really put yourself out there and we just need to try it. And you're going to face rejection and you're going to face what feels like failure, but artists who want to make it camp. And it really just matters that you continue honing your craft in, reaching out to find your audience. And that's what I think beta reading really is at its heart. It's finding your audience, reaching out to readers, finding the readers who love your book and will tell other people about your book. Pam (12m 32s): So we really see beta reading, not as a transaction, necessarily the way you would with an editor or other like professionals, because beta readers, aren't professionals. They are people who love books. And I think it's something really special to, for a reader to be part of an author's process. And we've found that those readers who are involved in the process become really attached to the writers and promote their work and just, it's a very special thing. And so we encourage authors not to just say thank you for the feedback, but so can you continue to develop relationships? And for those beta readers, you know, maybe offer a free copy of the book. Pam (13m 13s): You mentioned the mat in your acknowledgements at the very least, but treat it like, like relationship with each leader. And you'll get their reputation as a writer who is really in it for the craft, but also for the people that you're writing for. And I think that's important. And we've seen that in beta books, at least authors and readers can interact in the books themselves. So a reader can leave a comment and a writer can respond directly to the comment in that book. And so there is some back and forth their, that can lead to have some really neat interactions. Oh, Autumn (13m 46s): That must be really cool to see on the backend to be able to see like that relationship develop, which you can have over an email, but it's, you know, like you said, is all on one platform. It makes it kind of easy and you can literally just respond as their reading instead of, you know, oh, I've got an email and into my spam folder. Paul (14m 4s): Right. Well, we don't watch, we don't watch too much of what happens. One of the things is, is it's big for us as it is kind of people having a private workspace. So most of the workspace is very private and we only really look at something if we're asked by an author for a technical reason. Yeah. So it would be awesome to like Snoop on people, but we don't do that. We generally hear about it when an author or a reader decides to tell us that. Autumn (14m 29s): Yeah. Just, just Pam (14m 34s): It's very behind the scenes is sneek reading anybody's books. So Autumn (14m 37s): I know that's probably a very ethical choice. Have you as, as a very good, what are you, what you think? I mean, I love your description of the process, especially coming from a musician because I agree it's, it is hard work. You S I see so many authors who, I mean, they say, you know, so many people will start at writing a book and if they finish their first one, that's already a huge chunk of people who don't make it to the finish at the first one. And I do see a lot of first-time authors make the mistake of just launching without beta reading or getting feedback or a content editor, which is expensive. I mean, that's where be at a reader is make a good cheap version of a content editor, but it's something to get feedback and they just put it out there and then they get disappointed and they never keep working on something new. Autumn (15m 23s): So that is definitely, I think, where I see beta reader coming in. But what do you think has been some of the strengths that, you know, you've then you're even your husband's books. There are things you've heard from authors that why beta readers can be so important, especially for new authors, trying to learn the craft and how to write something that readers will love. Paul (15m 44s): So I'll tell you all started kind of with the technical side and Pam, we can try him and kind of with what we're all in thoughts, but kinda from a business perspective, you know, authors should know if they wanna sell books, you need to treat it like a business. And if we were talking about software or any other thing that we would all be talking about, finding your customers or, or product fit. And so one of the things that, especially in the process of finding beta readers, a lot of authors or forced to discover his, so who is my books for, and what is it about my book that certain readers we'll like? So we were talking about fantasy, you know, there's a, there's a wealth of sub-genres, right? And you're not just going to say, Hey, this is a fantasy book for fantasy readers. Paul (16m 26s): You're going to say, well, this is his, this urban fantasy, or is this high fantasy? Has this grim dark light, and then narrowing it down and figuring out, oh, like, do I have a reader profile or do I have multiple reader profiles? Do I have a book description from myself kind of from marketing and for understanding who I'm writing to and why I'm writing to these people. And so that's one of the things that we see authors, we see them, we encourage authors to do. And the beta reading process forces, forces you to figure out who your readers are and then to go out and look for them and find out, oh, where, where do these people congregate? How can I find them? How can I reach them? And if you don't know that before you launch a book, you're not going to be effective at say, targeting ads, even writing, press copy or blurbs or back cover matter, because you're not thinking about who the person is, that's reading it and why they're going to resonate with it. Pam (17m 24s): It's true. And I think artistically, it's important to get over the hurdle of sharing something that's so precious to you. You know, as you've mentioned, you might have spent 12 months reading this thing, and it's not a thing, right. It's, it's just the baby. Right. And you know, it's a scary thing to send your baby out into the world. And so you should be at your right. So it makes sense to look for those people that you think will be good for your book. And to really treat it as this is something precious that I love. And I think it can be a gift to the world and to a certain community of people. Pam (18m 9s): And it's, if it's so hard, we need to make just a little bit of detachment from your work. And I think people are scared to, to share, to share their work because they're afraid of mean people. Yeah. I will say, I think, I think most people are not mean people, you know, you can say to someone, I wrote this thing, I love it. I'd love your feedback. Please be nice. And they will, you know, so I Paul (18m 39s): Think that this, which is it's own feedback, Pam (18m 44s): But then most people will not read it and say, this is terrible. What are you doing? And so you have, have faced in your own work and in the people that you are initially reaching out to. And when you're doing that first foray into finding readers, it's okay to use the people in your social circle. And I think Paul and I really love the same kinds of books. So if I were writing a fantasy novel, I would ask him to be one of my first readers, because he has so much familiarity with the genre. And I have other friends who we share the same interests. So just start with people who have, you know, but how do you also share that passion with us is a good place to start. And they might know other people that you don't know who would also be interested. Pam (19m 27s): So I think to be, to be open-minded as you, as you send your book out into the world, but it's okay to start with those people that you already trust to be sure that when you talk to you, but also you don't want to just ask if the book is good and if they liked it, because if they love you, they'll say, yeah, it was good. I liked it. Autumn (19m 55s): And you and your readers. Yeah. That is the problem. But having family Reed at your mom's always going to love it. It doesn't matter. Okay. So I do, I, do you remember seeing with beta Ray with the beta books, you know, you could set up actually questions as you are going through like, Hey, does this scene make sense? Is this character ring true? I like being able to ask those questions because you're right. I mean, a good beta reader who maybe has, does this for a couple of different authors because with indie publishing, oh my goodness. There are some very savvy beta readers who could basically do this as a profession. That's how they get maybe three books and they are so darn good. But otherwise you have to, you, right. Autumn (20m 36s): You have to coax them kinda of like, did this character sound right? Did I screw them up somewhere? Cause you let me know. And then you start getting the full story. Paul (20m 46s): Yeah. That was something that we were very mindful of when we were making the software is finding there's an, there's not, there's not an overwhelming amount of customization on beta books, but there is a fair amount specifically with asking questions as one of the things we were, we were very mindful of. So you can give full book guidance in your table of contents. You can give individual specific guidance at the beginning or the end of each chapter where you ask, you know, this is the climax of the romance. Can you tell me this, this and this. And then we also kind of offer guides about asking questions. We tend to encourage people not to ask yes or no questions, ask things that are more about opinion or have an open and open answer ability. Paul (21m 30s): I personally say it's better to ask a question at the end of the chapter. So they're not thinking about it as their going through, but some people like to have their readers focusing on something per chapter. And then we also let authors insert kind of broader questionnaires kind of as a, like an act break or at a book break as they're going through, which some people like, because they're like, Hey, we've just finished the first act. Which of these characters, or do you like the most? Why you, why do you think they're the KIRO you no. And then sometimes you run into authors. We were like, oh no, they all thought so-and-so was the main character. And I'm about to kill them or something of that nature. It's not a problem with their grr Martin. Autumn (22m 9s): So that's, that's just part of the plot, but Dick and put it in their readers and twist it a little bit. so that's fantastic. I'd like to that you, you know, you talked about, you know, coaxing and I think that was part of the platform. You, if I remember correctly, you could see where people were. So if you suddenly saw that like 15 of the 20 people, you asked, it only made it to chapter 10, you would know, even if they weren't giving you feedback, you're like, okay, everyone stopped at 10 once, you know, my passive feedback. Autumn (22m 54s): And hopefully someone will have at least tell you what's wrong with chapter 10, but that is, yeah, you did something is wrong. There's a usefulness then that kind of, of statistics instead of sending out those emails, like you said, and never hearing back or just getting the, oh yeah, I read that month ago. It was great. We were kidding. Anything else? Go ahead. Oh, and one Paul (23m 24s): Of the things we found is we've helped authors when a ton of betas is yeah. That, that very thing that you just said, oh, I read it a month ago. What we've discovered is if you treat it like an important part of your process, you actually get better response and a more engaged readership because they perceive that, oh, this beta is a part of this author's business and I have a responsibility to them. So it's saying, Hey, you know, can you read this book in the next two weeks? Or the deadline for being finished is this day. And then the book is closed, which is a future we have where essentially we just shut the book and you can work with your feedback. We found that that's actually very effective. It's also one of those things, but a lot of authors are really resistant to because they feel like they're placing some strange and position on people. Paul (24m 5s): But it's one of those ironies where when you give people a higher expectation of their importance and their responsibility, they often respond positively because they are affirmed in how important they are and how valued they are by an author. Yeah. Autumn (24m 21s): And that probably helped weed out some of the chafe, the chaff two, you know, the people who just want the free book versus the people who are, feel like part of the team and want to help. Yeah. Yeah. Pam (24m 33s): And I think it's important to treat your beta. It's important not to treat it as if you're asking a favor from the readers. I mean, on one hand you are, but on the other hand, you really need their health, I think, and you should want to develop those relationships. So I'm just saying in a different way of what Paul said, that you don't need to be hesitant and, you know, and as people that try it, you know, you, you can approach with some confidence because this is something that you have worked on, you see value in it and you trust that other people will see value in it as well, and that they will drive value from it. Pam (25m 12s): And now they may say see different things and your work than you see this, as we all have their relationship with the thing that we create and then we output. But that's one of the beautiful things about, especially casting your net wider with beta readers. It's great to have M 10 20, if you can find it. So you got a nice sample size and you might see, see trends that you weren't even aware of in your own work and the things that you can capitalize or lean into in the next books and the series. If your, if your writing series M which is good, my business, if that's where your, but yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of value to be shared. Pam (25m 53s): And it's really good to approach it with, with the idea that you are bringing something valuable into their lives. Not only asking for their help, with their little project, Autumn (26m 4s): I like that. I think we all do better when we realize that we are taking this seriously. I mean, we have it as a hobby and something we're passionate about, but giving it that dedication, that time on our own part and the people who love reading, giving their expertise as readers is very valuable because yeah, there's a lot of things that they can catch that a careful reader that knows that they're really doing it to help the author and not just their going to, you know, our creator as being an example. I mean, their getting an advanced reader copy just to leave a review. That's great. But their not often being very cautious readers, they might be looking, they might notice a typo, but their not going to sit there and go, why did you the character do that? Autumn (26m 44s): I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense. And who's, or that's what the beta readers are for. Pam (26m 50s): Yeah, exactly. Autumn (26m 52s): And I do think it was so interesting threw me off at first, but you know, you, from when I saw you, you have to bring in your own manuscript. Like you have basically almost copy and paste might be the fastest way to get a book up there. But I do see the value. I mean, I still remember I read the Twilight series. It's definitely not one of my favorite, but the, what Stephanie went through when someone took the books that she finally is taken, what five, almost a decade for her to finally release Edward's point of view from the first book, because someone took her file and started sharing it. And I mean, not all of us are going to be Stephenie Meyer and be these famous authors, but that is the problem that is this fear that when you're sending this out to the world, whether you're sending an EPUB file or just like book, book, funnel has a place where you can send out reader copies to then PDFs, how someone can take that N share it. Autumn (27m 46s): So where were you? Don't need it to be, so this one, you, you make, it all stays right there, which has kind of have I, do you see the point to that? Paul (27m 55s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's, I mean, even I go back and forth on manuscript theft because when it happens, it's very publicized and people have a lot of fear about it. But generally when you're an aspiring author at the risk is very low, especially if you're trying to start a business because as you know, like writing a book and selling a book is, is not the, the goal it's, it's creating a platform and having books. You exactly know, but, but there's also, there's, there's increased vulnerability that an author is kind of sharing with the readers, especially depending on where they are in the process, because some authors will beta unedited chapters. If they have a group of people that are really hungry, like for instance, there's an author. Paul (28m 38s): We use this site early on when we were in beta to would dictate a chapter and immediately share it to a small section, like the elite tier of his mailing list to get feedback before it even went through edits or, or copy of it because they were so hungry and such big fans, but also because they would give him good feedback. And that sounds terrible, like a terrifying thing for their ability to me. And that's one of the reasons we want to make sure that people feel that they have the control of our access. Autumn (29m 7s): So that's really cool. So is it possible to do that, to set up different tiers like this, as I'm sharing this with just this subset group that our, my special fantastic fans, and when you're ready to get more beta, as you can have open it up to other people as well. Pam (29m 22s): So yeah. So the way the process works as you upload you manuscript, and when you send out invitations to readers to their email addresses, and if you want them to run 20 rounds of betas with 20 different groups, readers', you could, and so you just, you invite the readers that you want and that first time, and then they're done, you can just remove them from the book and then do whatever you want. If you want to make any edits, you can, and then just invite another group and they can go through the book. And as the author, you can decide whether readers are seeing each other's feedback or not. So you can decide whether they're experiencing a clean read every time. Pam (30m 7s): And I really think you ought to do that, but there are authors who like to build reader community by letting readers see each other's comments, sort of appreciate the books together in that sense. Well, almost like a Paul (30m 20s): Bit is like a beta book club. Autumn (30m 23s): Okay. Now I want to be an, a book club is going to really, and I did C so you can send out emails. I just like that. Cause, so if you already have, like, you've been doing this and you have, you know, 40 emails, you can send out an email list, but you, there are actually beta readers who are on the site. And you can like, as an author, I think for what is all you could basically go and like, look at their profile and say, Hey, would you like to try out this book? Is that right? Pam (30m 53s): Yeah, that's right. I mean, all leaders joined at the invitation of an author at one point or another. So you don't just have people showing up. You have people invited who likely are trusted by another author. So we ask readers to fill out a reader profile if their interested, if they're looking to be contacted by new authors and we call that the reader directory and they involve, include as much information as they want their areas of expertise, genre, preferences, genre of this preferences, anything that they think uniquely identifies them as a reader home. And the database is searchable both by you. Pam (31m 36s): You can just start at simply genres. Yeah. Anything you want. There is an advanced search you could search for roller skates and see if you come up with, as a reader and then it's searchable on our free trial. But querying readers is available only on our subscription because we wanna protect our leaders. We don't want them to get spammed. Oh, thanks. So yeah, you send out a query and the reader can decide whether or not to read. And it's just a real click, but quick button in their e-mail just accept or reject. It's also on the, on their dashboard, on the home screen. And we find that a number of our others have, I dunno at Paul, I think most authors find a few readers on the reader directory, but a lot of, a lot of people really do their own work to find their own. Pam (32m 21s): Readers' we also have so many, sorry, go ahead, Paul. Paul (32m 25s): Well, I mean, the director is a bit of a, kind of, it was a sneaky way that we thought that we could help authors get used to the idea of asking people to read their book. So I like that. So there's no expectation from us that you'll be able to find a group of beta readers through the directory. You might find one or two people. We encourage, we encourage the readers when they get queried. If they don't like the query to say, Hey, the reason I didn't like this query is because I list this in my preferences. And you said this, or, you know, I don't want to read my book, your book. It sounds amazing, but I'm busy, but it's really kind of a, a backdoor way to get authors used to the idea of maybe having a much softer approach where people they know we were already interested in. Paul (33m 16s): So they can say, oh, here's my 160 word pitch to you. I know you liked this and this, let me practice how to approach someone. So that's kind of why it's there. Also a lot of people who came to this site for one author started emailing us and saying, Hey, I really enjoyed doing this. Can I feed them more bucks? And so that was when we created. And then we tried to find ways to make it a useful part of the author process. We so strongly encouraged people to go out and find their own group of readers out in the world, because that's going to be your business. Autumn (33m 48s): Yeah. I mean, especially if you said you're sending out an email to invite them, so you have their emails. So you're creating you're newsletter list and there's a lot of people you're gonna like say, Hey, it's all out and stores. And I think that you are in it. And if we want to buy it, that'd be great. But you don't have to just tell your friends and family or anyone you think, yeah, that is how you want that author platform. Because without that, if Amazon decides that you aren't good enough and kicks you out, which is rare, but occasionally things do happen with people's authors profiles that get accused of something are break some rule and then toss out of Amazon. And that's a big deal. That's it? No matter how I'm of an wide author, I'm across everywhere, because I just think the world should have competition and should be available and open. Autumn (34m 33s): But yeah, you know, Amazon's still is mostly the most of the eggs in the basket. Paul (34m 40s): Well, I mean, I'm sure you've done 135 episodes. I'm sure the importance of mailing lists is something you have talked about extensively. And then that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons we tell people to find their readers, start, start building that list. Now start building that list. When you're halfway through your first draft, start thinking about who you're going to want to find. If you're going to start marketing an online community in your book, isn't Dunn, you should join the community and become a member so that when you are ready, people will know, oh, this isn't some stranger. And this is a Panda friend, 64 is asking me to read their new books. And now, you know, I've had 15 interactions with Panda friend, like let's read their book. Autumn (35m 22s): That's true. That's where I was like pay into front. And you, you just came up with that one or is it secretly? You're all going somewhere. Paul (35m 29s): I'm never gonna tell, Hey, everyone on a Panda buddies.com Autumn (35m 37s): Sounds great. But then I did see how it is. It is true. So it's nice to know though, if you were an author and you are truly new, you, you, you should at least learn how to work on your marketing and like, say, how do you ask people to do this? But then you might actually get a couple of people. So if you're brand brand spanking new and you have no one to outreach for you, you might get one or two, you might get your first start. And that's always important. But I do. I love the fact that free trials, I've tried out a whole bunch of different editing software recently and stuff like that. And there was one or two that didn't have free trials. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me even a 14 day, but you have a free level of free tier. And I'm like, there's like, you've got Pam (36m 25s): My gosh. So it really is meant to give writers an idea of what it's like to use to use this software. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of writers are contentious. They have the one book and they have a few friends. They want to read it. But then if you do have more aspirations and a larger readership than you already know whether the software works for you. So that really was, was the goal there. Autumn (36m 51s): We give it a whirl with book one and a couple of readers just to see how you like it. That's an example. And if you like it, you're going to come back for this, if you're really into writing. Pam (37m 0s): Yeah. And we, we find that most, most writers will use the use data books for about a month to run their beta. And you can turn off your subscription after that. And all that means is that the readers no longer have access, but of course is retained access to your work indefinitely, whether your paid are not at that point. And yeah, I think a lot of people come to our site looking for readers and they see beta books and say, oh, these people will find me beta readers. And that is one of the reasons of among many that Paul's already mentioned that we instituted the reader directory, but we also have, I've got a book club called Pam S Beta Jam, and anybody can submit a novel of anyone who's looking to find readers can submit and I'll review. Pam (37m 48s): And I choose pretty much any fiction genre. And I'm also looking for memoirs cause we got a lot of interest in that among our leadership. Oh, but it's, I make it available to our about, gosh, I think there are about a thousand readers that have come through PBJ at one time. And so most writers find they have two or three really dedicated readers who make it all the way through to really enjoy their books at the end of the process. So we try to make that available. That's available, whether you are on the free trial or subscribed or whatever. So that's, if you're looking for a way to find readers for free, that's a good way too. Pam (38m 28s): So yeah. All it just requires that you upload your book and do a query at the group's homepage. And we're just getting started this summer after, after a hiatus, because a lot of people just were not, we're not writing, but I'd love to be able to send out a bunch. So anyone listening who is interested, it has a book that you need to get some eyes on it and don't know how to do it. So you submit Autumn (38m 52s): I'm and check this out. That is an opportunity because I think that is definitely, it's not maybe the number one question I get asked by new writers, but it's probably in the top five. So that's yeah. So cool. Paul (39m 4s): But the question being, how do we find readers or Autumn (39m 8s): Just, you have the question being, what was, how do I find beta readers specifically? Like where do I go find them? It seems to stump a lot of people. I honestly think a lot of new authors especially get stumped by the difference between author groups, which authors are readers, but often we're so busy writing. We don't read as much as we want to. Or I know with me, I'm like currently on just like, if it hasn't won a Hugo or a Nebula award, I'm not reading it because I just want to, I want to see the top tier fiction. That just makes me go, holy crap. This is amazing. And that's just kind of like my goal for the year. So I know I've read a lot of other peoples books, so unless I'm doing edits and yeah. And then the authors to new authors, do you know? Autumn (39m 50s): So their go to the, this author group, their asking them, Hey, you want to be a beta reader and their not going into like the reader groups and asking them if they want to be a Bader, you, it takes a little while to figure that out. I think. Pam (40m 1s): Yeah. If, oh, sorry. Well, I'll just, if, if another writer is reading your book, but they're going to critique your craft and that's not what you need from a, a beta reader. That's very true. Paul (40m 13s): The version of the book that they would. Autumn (40m 16s): Yes. Oh yes. So my favorite reviews have been, well, that's not what I would have done it, so that's great. Then you write it. You are away. Paul (40m 28s): Yeah. And one of the things that's, I mean, it's, it's frustrating for all authors, especially new authors. And it's also frustrating for us trying to help people. Is that a T two things I wrote into a lot of times is very naturally, you're used to asking authors for advice on how to be an author, because you've gotten great advice on how to write your book. But a lot of times what happens is they either instinctively their successful found readers kind of through luck or doing something that they were doing already kind of naturally, or they use a process maybe eight years ago. One thing I hear a lot of writers conferences is authors going, oh, well, you know, I started writing a blog and all you have to do is write everyday and then you'll get readers. And I'm like, well, I mean, when was the last time you actually read a blog? Paul (41m 12s): I mean, it's not the same as it was and say, oh two, when people had a list of blogs, they would visit every day. Now you might be relying on your Instagram feed or a sub stack or Pinterest. So you have to find new things and, and it's always changing the best way to reach readers. And then the second thing is your early readers, that's almost like a fingerprint finding them and forming that relationship is, is going to be an incredibly unique to you, your book and who they are. And so I think you have to do some fairly systematic and deep thinking about who you are, who the book is and who you want to be reading it. Autumn (41m 50s): Well, that's, that's a very good advice and so true. And I do think, I remember when you are right. I started on Twitter back before the second resurgence of Twitter being popular. And I loved it. And I remember someone saying is like, your first hundred followers are going to be the ones who remember and interact with the most. And I think that's true, even with beta readers, it's going to be those first ones that you, even, if they fade off, for some reason, they're going to be the ones you remember, and you are so appreciated. I have. So building that first a hundred list and just fantastic to do. Paul (42m 24s): And you, you learn as they enjoy your book, you learn what you're doing because I mean, there's, there's so much focus on writing and craft, which I think is very important. And I feel like at, in some ways it's a dirty trick because write this book with a group of authors, you work really hard on a, you edit and then you decide, okay, I'm going to publish. And then it's a completely new skill set. It's a completely new set of expectations. And, and that's one of the reasons that we're like, okay, well you want to build a tool to make this less of a logistical headache. And that was something that as we were developing better books for their, we really found to be encouraging to all of us, which is, this is a hard process asking people to read your book. Paul (43m 5s): When you don't have a name, you have never written a thing, involves a tremendous amount of rejection and it's awkward and uncomfortable, no matter how confident you are, no matter how strong your ego is. So just taking away the headache of you finally got someone to say yes, and then you send them a file and they say they can't open it. You feel embarrassed and you doubt yourself. And you're like, well, if I reform at this and send it, well, they even open it. Have I already blown that chance? And it going, going through that over and over just is demoralizing. So we really worked to make a tool that could remove as many opportunities for you to feel worse about yourself as we could. Autumn (43m 47s): Well, it could almost be like your tagline, beta books will teach you marketing and this soft software. So that's so lovely. So we have to wrap up, I mean, is there any final advice or like your favorite thing or a favorite moment that has come out of working with authors? Because I know that my husband is a photographer and I was just shocked at how cruel other photographers could be on technique and composition. And, oh my goodness. So it's not like that with authors. I think there's some of the sweetest people on the planet. So any last notes that you would like to end on collecting my thoughts? Autumn (44m 28s): That's fair enough. I'll Paul (44m 30s): Go first. I mean, you're right. And the author community is amazingly open and they share and support each other. And an incredible way. I think one of the reasons is because it's so hard and because the information is out there and a lot of people just don't do it when they get to the hard parts and the hard part. And the hard part is first finishing your book. I mean, the stats, what's something like one in 10 people finished their book or a 10 out of 100 and something like that. But then the marketing part is, is just as challenging. People will keep writing books and won't put in the hard work of saying, okay, I'm gonna have to go out and find people that I think will like this book. And I'm gonna have to ask you a hundred to get 10, and I'm gonna have to do that over and over. Paul (45m 11s): And authors will tell you that because it's not a secret and they're not worried about an author's just, aren't worried about people competing with them because they can't write books fast enough for all of the readers. And then, because it doesn't get talked about as much as an author. Well, I always encourage people to do something like go on YouTube and watch the Y Combinator startup school videos. You were talking about tech companies, but really the rules apply when you're talking about a customer fit. It's the same as a reader fit. And you are talking about finding your early customers is the same as finding you early readers. When you talk about honing your vision and your mission statement, like create a mission statement or a vision for your book and for your author career, and use that to guide how you look for readers. Paul (45m 53s): The, the practice is very similar between say tech, startups and your creative startup. So if you're not finding things that are helping you in the author world, look for their field because there's a lot of entrepreneurs and that's what you are. If you're an author, and if you're serious, you're building a business as an entrepreneur. And you want to look for people. If someone so launched and a hundred million dollar tech company, maybe they have something to, we can help you find, find a hundred readers or a thousand readers. Autumn (46m 23s): That's a good idea. Pam (46m 25s): Yeah. And I think I would just circle back to the belief in your work as maybe not perfect yet, but there are so many readers outdoors and know reader goes, I like this other, and I don't have room for any other authors. None of us, we love reading are like that. We're all like I've finished all these books, but this one person who else can I read all of their books of. And so there are readers out there who will love your book. All you have to do is find them, all right, let's say are find-able. They are find-able and not everybody is your reader and that's normal and good and fine. Pam (47m 5s): And when you find someone who's not your reader, that is one more step toward finding someone who is, because you've learned something maybe about your book, all about the people or person that you reached out to. So I would say just, just persist, just stay out there, keep going, because what you've done is significant, and we'll be really valuable, not only to you, but to other people who will enjoy and appreciate your work and enjoy getting to know you. And the process Autumn (47m 39s): Is very cool. And Hey, you might get to join your book club and get to talk to you as well. And that's really Pam (47m 46s): Trying to do it a little bit of a coaching also for people from whom is their first beta. We choose to book. So we've got resources on our website for how to find readers and sort of best practices for How to Run a Beta. And we really want to help writers be successful in this, this segment of talking about rejection a lot. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a part of growth you can't grow unless we put through uncomfortable situations. Yes. Autumn (48m 15s): And you can't grow unless you actually start producing something in trying. So God is fantastic. I love the resources. And of course, we're going to link to beta books in the show notes. Otherwise it's pretty easy to find it's just beta books.com. So go and find it that way as well. So thank you so much, Pam and Paul for being here. Thank you so much for making beta books and actually having some resources on there that are free, which of their fantastic. And then you make it so good that you just have to buy in and join in as well. Paul (48m 48s): Well, thank you for having us. This has been fun. This, this, this is our first one in a, in a year. I mean, I was like, oh no, I haven't. Podcasted in forever. Is this going to be okay? And it was okay. It was actually better than it was just fantastic. Autumn (49m 3s): Good. Thank you for letting me a break you back into podcasting. Pam (49m 8s): Yeah. So this has been really fun. I think we've got a coupon code Am Writing Fantasy. So H AWF, anyone who finds us through this podcast Use AWF for twenty-five percent off any subscription M four line. Autumn (49m 26s): Oh, we go use that phrase of my accounts and has been fantastic. I will put that in the show notes as well. So thank you so much where you appreciate it. Have a fabulous day. And if there's anything that we can do to help you out again, let us know. It was fantastic having you here. Thanks so much. Okay. And so next week, so yes, we're at, I will be back and it will be one of our top 10 lists this time, the today 10 worst ever characters. Narrator (50m 4s): If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You could also Join Autumn in Yesper on patrion.com/ Am. Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

Do you believe in the unknown? What about ghosts? Night horrors? Apparitions? This week the Peas are excited to talk with Mary Elizabeth Chambliss about all things spooky. From Ouija Boards to mysterious smells, ghosts fighting in walls to talking to our ancestors, this episode has something for everyone. Get some hot cocoa or tea, crawl under your favorite blanket and listen as we discuss the supernatural! Meet Mary Elizabeth: Mary Elizabeth Chambliss is a graduate student at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, pursuing a Master's of English. Her fiction and poetry is focused on tarot, feminism, spirituality, and mental health. During the pandemic, she has been trapped inside with her cat, Charlie, and a ghost who has yet to tell her its name. Links: “Initiated” by Amanda Yates Garcia “It Didn't Start With You” by Mark Wolynn “Trickster's Choice” by Tamora Pierce “Magic Bites” (the Kate Daniels Series) by Ilona Andrews History of Fantasy 11 Factors That Make for a Good Fantasy Novel 13 Kick-Ass Tips for Writing Fantasy from Professional Fantasy Editors The 25 Best Fantasy Novels: Our Picks --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/peasinthepodcast/support

Talking Real, a live talk show where Megha Upadhyaya and her guests bring you weekly insights dedicated to writing. This episode spotlights fantasy writing with Cady Hammer. From the time she was a child of eleven, writing her first novel between classes, Cady explored her world through her imagination. She was often teased for being in her own world, but never hesitated to invite others along on the adventure. As she grew older, Cady's studies in history and anthropology set the stage for the detailed worldbuilding that lets readers step into the story. Her stories explore the complexities of relationships crafted around the idea that love, friendship, and grief are all interwoven. Cady runs a website, Fluff About Fantasy for young writers to learn the genre-specific craft of writing fantasy and be inspired by what they can accomplish. Check out https://fluffaboutfantasy.com

In this week's episode of The Hope Prose Podcast, Tara has a heartfelt and lively conversation with children's fantasy author R.J. Anderson. Listen in as they chat about the benefits of tackling difficult subjects and themes through a fantastical lens, and how great stories, including her newest releases, The Flight and Flames Trilogy through Enclave Publishing, encourage us to be brave in exploring how our differences can sometimes be our greatest strengths. Make sure to check out our Instagram page for details on how you can win your own advanced reader copy of Nomad.