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Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Investing in Real Estate; A Global Perspective with Colin Lynch | EP87

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 12, 2022 52:30


Colin Lynch os the Head of Global Real Estate Investments at TD Asset Management. Colin is responsible for Global and Canadian Real Estate Strategy, overseeing fund design and structuring, implementation and oversight of acquired assets for the Global Real Estate Strategy. In this role Colin manages Investments in over 1000 properties located in over 20 counties worldwide. In this episode we talked about:  • Colin's Bio & Background  • Financial Crisis  • The Canadian Market from a Global Perspective  • Post-COVID Real Estate Market Overview  • Pricing & Affordability  • Effects of Inflation  • Commercial Real Estate Culture  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinkrlynch/?originalSubdomain=ca Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Colin Lynch. Colin is the head of global real estate investments at TD asset management.   Colin is responsible for global and Canadian real estate strategy, overseeing fund design and structuring implementation and oversight of acquired assets for the global real estate strategy. In this role, calling manages investments in over 1000 properties located in over 20 countries. Worldwide. We just updated that now. Colin, how's it going   Colin (53s): Kid. Good. Thank you for having me here.   Jesse (56s): Thanks for, thanks for being on the show. I'm really excited to talk with you today. I think there's a number of things that we'd like to cover, but before we do, as with every guest that we have on the show would love to get a little bit of more information on your background, how you got into real estate. We talked a little how it was a bit of an unconventional approach or entrance into real estate. So take us back, take us back and give us a little bit of a, of your background.   Colin (1m 23s): Absolutely certainly unconventional approach to real estate. So first things first, I actually grew up as very much into music as a musician. And so I was one of those children that was in every sort of music class. By the time it got to high school was performing in a ton of ensembles through the, by the a hundred concerts a year, got to the end of high school, said time to explore something else.   Cause I figured I, I had learned all that I could possibly learn in music, which was incorrect, but I figured I'd at least explored app. And so I went into a business and history. So I did three things in undergrad. I did the world concerned for a music. I did a bachelor of commerce at Queens, and I did a bachelor of arts in history at Queens. And, and then, you know, graduated and it was the heyday of the leveraged buyout, boom. And my mom who said, I was way too all over the place said, you got to get a skill.   You've got to focus and you should go work for those banks because they never run into any issues, their board to stability. And so that's what I did I do to fleet, went out to investment banking and went to Morgan Stanley and got to experience the global financial crisis front and center. Ben went to, went to, to business school. And throughout that entire period, this is where you expect me to say, I had that passion for real estate, which I do, but I also had a passion for commercial aviation.   So joined McKinsey and company in Chicago, but reality was all over the world, did that stuff. And after traveling all over the world, I said, look, that's fantastic, but I'd like to come back to a city I love and a nation I love and that's in Toronto. So I did that and this is where the real estate part comes in. I had been very interested in, in a lot of political activities. And so in 2014, in January, 2014, somebody that couldn't get elected asked me to help him.   And that was the John Torrey mayoral campaign here in, in Toronto. And so 10 months later he was mayor. He asked me to work for him. I said, no. And through that conversation set of conversations that got introduced to this firm called Greystone, a firm that I had never heard of before. And, and after about a year of conversation, Greystone asked me to join. So initially I joined in strategy working for effectively the C-suite and, and then that turned into moving into the real estate world.   So that's a long way of saying I had a very unconventional introduction to the world of real estate, but it was, it was a fun story to, to live through.   Jesse (4m 26s): That's great. So in terms of the, the financial crisis component of that was that you were still a at Morgan Stanley at that, at that time. And if so, what were you doing? What were you doing for them there?   Colin (4m 38s): Yeah, I was doing a number, number of different things. I, so I started started that Morgan Stanley focused on consumer retail and financial services. So financial sponsor stories. So serving pension plans who private equity firms in the light and then also timber companies. And then, and then as, as the financial crisis unfolded that broadened.   And I basically worked across firstly every street, but spent a bit of time in real estate as well. And then from a type of activity, as I mentioned prior to the global financial crisis investment banking was doing a lot of leveraged buyouts and throughout the financial crisis also worked on things like that or in possession financing for companies going through insolvency or worked on a few, reached a sort of a few IPO's did some M and a, but at the conclusion of my term at Morgan Stanley, the governor of the bank of Canada, Mark Carney at the time requested some help on the financial stability plan for Canada that was quantitative easing effectively in Trent and requests was help design a program for the bank to implement a quantitative easing.   And so that's what I did in the last sort of four months or so of my time at Morgan Stanley. So highly unusual investment banking experience for sure. A lot of industries and a lot of different types of activities that I participated in very much a function of the global financial crisis.   Jesse (6m 21s): Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's still topical, I guess even the current environment we're in now. So I think the, the idea of just the macro economic perspective you got, I don't think it's something that's too dissimilar to some of what we're doing right now from a stimulus and, and a quantitative easing perspective.   Colin (6m 40s): Very fair point. And you know, it's interesting because prior to this environment that we're in used to tell folks about that quantitative easing program, which the bank didn't actually have to implement. And the bank was here in Canada was one of the few central banks worldwide. They didn't have to implement quantitative easing well, fast forward to 2020, and we were pretty, pretty heavy on the quantitative Beason train. So, so, you know, it's things, things change and evolve over time.   Yeah.   Jesse (7m 11s): Yeah. Fair enough. So take us to, to the Greystone, to the actual foray into real estate, you know, what, what area did you, did you initially go into, and maybe for those that don't know a little bit about what they do?   Colin (7m 25s): Yeah, absolutely. So Greystone began as the investment management corporation of Saskatchewan. So 35 years ago, thereabouts, it was a department of, of the government and it was spun out from the government and became sort of like the investment authority for the province of Saskatchewan then became owned by pension plans. And at that point looked very much like, you know, the Aimco as an example, what the government of Saskatchewan said at that point, when they spun it out was after five years, the pensions could do whatever they wanted in terms of their investment management services.   And over time management bought out most of the interests of those pensions and, and that, that time Greystone had a very small real estate portfolio. It was a full suite, so public equities and fixed income, but also had real estate. And that real estate grew from about 200 million to on, on, by the time TD came around and bought Greystone in 2018, that real estate portfolio equity was about 16, 17 billion mortgages was around, I believe at the time about 4 billion.   And so it was quite the successful run and Greystone had become a name for excellence in real estate, both equity and debt, even though Greystone began and, and still had quite a strong public equities and fixed income side to it. And so like that, I joined Ray stone working with the senior team in, and once I did a number of things around reorganizations U S expansion, et cetera, I said, look, it's time to fire me because I'm pretty much done.   And then that, you know, originated into originate the conversation, which was, you know, do you want to be a coach, I E a manager, or do you want to be a player on the team? And I looked at that and I said, you know, what, why being a player on the team looks really interesting. And so that's the path I went down. And as we've looked at the different areas in Greystone and where my passion was, my dad grew up in construction. And so I grew up with, you know, floor plans, building plans, sorry, I'm on my, on my basement floor.   You know, I had a fascination for real estate. And so I thought that would be a cool place to be. And so my foray in was working on our asset management division. And so we created a real estate asset management division in house to do a bit of that work a bit on the office portfolio, in the industrial portfolio. And then, so I worked on that, that I was also asked to help co-create the international strategy, which was taking Greystone success that we had experienced over 30 years within Canada and, and expanding that outside of Canada.   And so I worked on those two initiatives and, and then the international strategy went from strategy to being a fund. And I went from creating the strategy to running the fund and then, and then that grew, and it was quite, it's been quite a successful ride. And then I was earlier this year, asked to take over the domestic portfolio, which is that portfolio that had been around for the, for the last 30 years.   Jesse (10m 55s): Yeah. So in terms of, in terms of going into the fund model, what was it prior to that? Was it, was it raising capital for asset specific and w like, what was that transformation like?   Colin (11m 5s): Yeah, so it was actually, so on the international side, it was literally building something from scratch. So Greystone prior to launching the international head, just domestic real estate. And it was a largely one strategy on the equity side and one strategy on the debt side, diversified across property types and by risk strategies and by geography and on international there's, there were a lot of investors con we call clients that were asking us, you know, why don't you have a strategy to invest outside of Canada?   And for about a decade, the Greystone response was we hear you, but we're focused on delivering great results in Canada. And so when I came around and said, look, I really am interested in, in, in being a player on the team versus the coach, they said, great help us solve this. And so we, we literally had a whiteboard. That's how we began. And we, and we designed ground up a single, comprehensive global strategy, investing everywhere from Australia to Europe, to the U S across all the property types and all of our strategies in all formats.   So it could be a fund investment or can be a JV, or it could be a club. And, and so we designed something with a tremendous amount of flexibility, which took a long time, but it was quite fun to be able to just literally create something from scratch and then, and then to actually build it, which, you know, you have all of the legal ramifications, regulatory ramifications fro in selling Greystone to TV in the middle of bad. And now you're pro you're owned by a traded bank and they've got their own regulations and then sort of, you know, build a track record and, and take that to the market and, and raise capital and, and deploy it.   So that's been, that's been the journey on the international side and it's definitely been interesting.   Jesse (13m 11s): Yeah, that is interesting. So we had a Michael Emery on the show a few months ago from allied REIT, and we know every time I have some Canadian Canadian guests that has started or work for a large Canadian real estate company, I always ask them the comparison to the U S or globally, where you have individuals playing in our backyard for a certain amount of time. And then I can imagine just like you're alluding to here, the regulatory environment, the probably the accredited investor differences and those kinds of complexities. Well, I'm sure there was a bunch of things that were challenging, but was there one thing or one or two things that was really one of the, one of the hardest parts about that transformation or about that ability to go from not just in playing in a Canadian market, but into a global space?   Colin (13m 58s): Oh, that's a good question. Certainly the regulatory dynamic is, is, is challenging. The European union, as an example, is a highly regulated regulatory construct. And, and there's a lot of rules around if you're marketing a fund, there's something called a passport and you sort of have to have this passport that applies to certain European countries.   We have a vehicle in Ireland called the ICAP, which Cyrus collective acid vehicle runs pretty akin to accompany. So with a legitimate board and, and, and all of the infrastructure service providers, companies that service that ICAP sending that up was quite, quite, quite the work, particularly as we're getting to the ninth ending of this, of this story, right, as COVID started. And so we sort of certainly felt the heat of regulatory concern just in general, as, as we were creating this as, as COVID habit.   So that's probably a little bit of a boring answer cause folks, folks, really, not too many people get up in the morning wanting to talk regulatory details, but, you know, we had eight, eight external law firms helping us around the world on, on that, on that point. And so, you know, the, the complexity of that I think was unexpected. I would say I'd stepped back from that and say, there's a cultural difference, you know, in, in the U S for sure.   You know, I think a bit more aggressive in Canada, we've got a smaller number of participants in the market that are fair. You know, quite a number are fairly well capitalized and have very long-term perspectives in terms of ownership, property. That's not uniform around the world. And certainly the U S is a deep and liquid place. And, and, and the regional variances are quite significant, but I think that broad sort of hates a little bit more aggressive is actually probably true.   I'd say the real estate challenge for us is there's just a host of participants worldwide. And so, you know, we're active in Australia, we're active in the UK, we're active in Germany, we're active in Japan and, and finding sort of like-minded investors across all of those regions. It's just a lot to learn a lot to introduce yourself a lot of introductions to make, and a lot of subsequent sort of conversations. And then you layer that on, into, into do that in the pandemic.   And, you know, fortunately we S we did maybe three years of those introductions and, and subsequent meetings, pre pandemic, but still we've, you know, we've had quite a number of those conversations. So layer on doing, doing that in a pandemic. And it becomes a quite interesting,   Jesse (17m 2s): Yeah, a little more challenging than, than any other time or most times in terms of, if we go there on that, you know, lockdowns the government stimulus, what we we've talked about before eviction moratoriums a lot has happened in the, in the last crazy to say almost two years, how has that perspective for you? And I understand it's a big question, but how has that, how has your perspective as a, as somebody that deals with real estate on a, on a domestic and global level, you know, how has your opinion of the market and asset classes changed over the last year or two?   Colin (17m 38s): Yeah, that is a big question. So generally put, I've been reminded of the ever present role of government in our lives and in particular in real estate. And I, and I don't think that can be overstated, right? So whether, you know, the, the eviction moratoriums, or simply put closing down a lot, a lot of the retail, et cetera, and that was a global story.   And, and going through the different government programs requirements, et cetera, particularly during the first two waves of COVID was, was an exercise. And, and there's things that we know about. So the shopping malls closed, et cetera. There were other things that got a bit less play, but were also meaningful. I E different requirements for international investors use Australia as an example, there were new requirements for international investors looking to bring capital into the market due to COVID.   So, you know, that, that was interesting now to real estate foundationally. I don't think COVID has changed my perspective on the different property types. So as an example, while located office and CPDs high quality had the view that if, you know, pre COVID, if, if you're making office investments, that's probably where you want to invest during COVID, don't have, I haven't changed my perspective on it, you know, has my overall sort of thoughts on office as a property type being tempered clearly.   But I, you know, I think you talk to folks and say, and what you hear is, you know, COVID, hasn't really changed their direction of travel. I think that's, that's largely the same for me. I do think on the retail side at some point. So I used the UK as an example, where we saw a lot of devaluation of retail. At some point, you hit the level where you say, you know, the land value is, is, is higher than what folks are sort of trading in the market for.   Right. And I think in the UK, you actually have some of those situations, but I think in, in Canada, there were probably some deals to be had in the retail space, depending on the type of retail you're looking at. And that probably, that would be a different point of view than one I would have had two years ago. It's just, we've seen, you know, a lot interns evaluations over the last two years, multifamily and industrial. I mean, you know, I think we've all been very interested on the industrial story, the E the E grocery dynamic, something I'm focused on a bit, most folks don't see that being a significant concern in, in, you know, for those that own grocery boxes.   But I do think that that E grocery, even though most would say, it's fairly unprofitable for the operators. I do think it's worth watching. And, and then on the multifamily side, you know, the, the story say, Hey, everybody's moved out, Tim, we're all gonna live in, in, you know, in two hours outside of the metros or we're going to move someplace far. I think we're seeing that kind of played out to a small degree, but largely hasn't fully, and folks have moved back.   And especially in, in the U S where folks have moved back into urban Metro San Francisco's a bit sluggish on that. But beyond that CEO look at Seattle, look at Boston, you've seen, you've seen those apartment rants quite dramatically increased this year. So, you know, some, all of that up and say, not dramatic changes in my view on real estate overall, but certainly certainly reinforcement in some areas and, and deeper thinking and others.   Yeah.   Jesse (21m 57s): I think I'm probably agree with everything you just said, from my perspective of what you're saying, it sounds like very similar to our outlook. Obviously we're biased in brokerage, but on the office end, I think that there was, if you were really in tune with what was going on in office, you saw a lot of these changes really predated COVID in the lockdown, the different ways of working, the ability to have people come in on potential alternating days. So I th I share your position on downtown well located transit oriented office.   I think the story hasn't changed much for them. What's, what's been amazing is that record prices that we've seen in, in industrial and multi res industry industrial, you know, has been the darling of the industry, multi Rez. I think at the beginning of the pandemic, there was this concern that eviction moratoriums would have caused this, you know, mass vacancy, which I think just generally we didn't see, we saw people paying their rent, which I guess in theory, or in practice was kind of subsidy subsidized by the government's.   Colin (23m 3s): Yeah, no, that's right. That's right. It was. And that goes back to the first point on the large role of government in, in our society. And, and to be fair, so much of our society was underwritten by the government, especially in that first lockdown, but our multifamily it's interesting because one could juxtapose a national headline from CNN, for instance, saying nobody's paying rent and rent collection is only at 70%. And multi-family, and then what I was hearing from, from institutional owners was, oh, no, our rent collections are 95%.   And I, the worst I heard was like maybe 89%. And so, you know, that, you know, those two stats juxtapose show the importance of institutional ownership of the multifamily space and, and how that really paid off in, in, in, in, throughout the crisis, not withstanding the point that yes, government definitely helped pay the bills for a number of folks, but that really, really mattered. And also the types of multifamily that you were in, this is more of a us common than Canada, because, you know, you have a much broader spectrum in the us, but certainly some of that luxury multi-family was, was hit pretty hard in the U S but interestingly, it is bouncing back.   Now I was in Boston six weeks ago, or so touring a bit of this product and it's, you know, it was quite interesting. The bounce back has been pretty robust. So anyway, for me, the point is institutional ownership and management of, of multifamily really made a difference in, in the crisis. Yeah.   Jesse (24m 49s): And I think on that point with trip, you know, AAA or high-end multi res, I know that there was intra construction, you know, pivots from, okay, maybe let's go be like, you know, maybe we don't need the Taj Mahal, whereas prior to COVID, they might've gone for that super high end. But yeah, I think a big component of it has been, despite some of the government policies, people have continued to pay the rent. And it seems to be at least from the data that we have, that the not only the prices keep going up, but net operating income keeps going up.   So the question really from my point of view is, you know, w where do we hit the wall first and pricing or affordability, you know, what, what tempers multi rise.   Colin (25m 30s): Yeah, that's a really good question. And take it take cities like Vancouver and Toronto, which have robust shadow rental markets where that condo inventory is, is really, you know, subbing in for that luxury rental. And I candidly think that it's those owners that will have to deal with that question first versus a multifamily owners. And if I were to sort of locate myself along that spectrum, I have to think affordability's going to start being an issue one way or another.   So whether it's, you know, people are paying, you know, the income proportions after, after tax income is, is, is off the charts. I'd say as, as a proportion of rent on average, you know, in, in, in, in Toronto and Vancouver, again, to a lot of that sort of condo shadow inventory, but it's worse for folks that are owner occupiers, just based off of the, you know, the significant appreciation that has happened.   So, you know, I think it's a legitimate concern. I just don't think institutional multifamily Canada is going to be the first in line to address it. I think there's going to be some other folks who dressing at first and we'll see how it gets addressed. And then the big thing that everybody talks about in, in the public equities world is interest rates. And when will they go up and, you know, folks are concerned about inflation. And I think we genuinely are, cause it sucks that things are a lot more expensive quickly, but I think a lot more people are much more interested on how will central banks, if they decide that this inflation run is a bit more permanent than they thought, Hmm, how will they adjust interest rates to, you know, deal with that.   And, and, and there, you know, if I look at that's the challenge and the folks lined up to, to face that challenge, those multi-family owners, aren't first in line, they're probably third in line. The first SIM are probably, you know, I would say highly leveraged homeowners that have, you know, purchased a product in the last year or so.   Jesse (27m 47s): Yeah. Fair enough. In terms of moving on to a little bit more on the interest rate, inflation inflation environment, you know, we keep hearing whether this is transitory, whether inflation that we have right now, for those that don't know, I think the fed very quietly, you know, mentioned that they would no longer be targeting the 2%, you know, their, their typical target of a 2% inflation. And it kind of went under the radar, I think even from, from kind of financial news, but w what are your thoughts?   And I guess in your role at TD, obviously you have to take a pretty broad global approach. How, how, how did that decision and what you've been seeing as inflation kind of creeping up, how is that influencing or changing, if it does your opinion on, on, you know, where you think you want to lock in rates where you think that you can, you can be in, in variable environments.   Colin (28m 44s): Yeah. Good question. So numb number places, one on, on the fixed versus fair, but we, we have generally put, had a predisposition to have as much fixed as possible on the view that, you know, this environment is benign in terms of the cost of debt. And so if we could sort of lock in some of that, that's, that's quite attractive now in certain places, it's pretty hard to do that. So construction financing being one, but we're possible that's being broadly the approach and, and this, and now that's a worldwide thing.   So, you know, I think that approach was most pronounced pre pandemic in places like Japan and also in Germany and other European countries. But I think now that's a Candace point, a us point, et cetera, on the other side, which is on the property type side, that's interesting, right? Because multifamily have one year, at least a student housing and maybe eight months, maybe 12 month policing. And when you look at an inflation world of rising interest rate world, that becomes quite interesting, even pre pandemic we're down in Australia, looking at industrial, we took a lot of comfort from the structure of leases in, in, for industrial product in Australia, which have a rental escalations each year.   And it's quite quite attractive at two to 3% per year. And so some now, sorry, that's quite attractive right now, right? Hopefully, hopefully it's attractive in five years, but I think that's also important. What's the structure of the leasing in, in the property types that you're investing in. And, and it's interesting, even in the office environment today, we're seeing leasing transform a little bit. We're seeing shorter term leases, not due to inflation, just due to uncertainty in office, but the, you know, the, I guess the net benefit of what might be viewed as more challenging leasing dynamic is you might have a little bit more flexibility in the shorter term if we, if we do have, you know, rising rates due to rising inflation.   So it is a complicated point, but we, we really began thinking about it in earnest in 2020. You know, we, we thought about it in 2019 and 2018, but in 2020, as we saw some of those significant changes and by the way, on the fed. Yeah. So that was a watershed moment. At least to me, when they moved off that sort of target, they also sort of announced, I think in the September meeting to be, you know, that they would begin tapering. Now we've been tapering in Canada for awhile, but I also think that's an important announcement that probably didn't get as much press as it should.   And then the program to taper fully, I think goes until June of next year. And after that, you would, you know, at least conceivably expect that rates would begin to rise. And I think to most people that would be sooner than what most people anticipate for the U S fed to, to do so. Yes, the feds made a few announcements that I think of come beneath that radar screen.   Jesse (31m 59s): I think it's one of those things that when it comes down to the ground level for us at the property level, whether it's, you know, office leasing or retail, I think there is potential for return of, you know, we've had leases where in the nineties and eighties, you'd see these legacy leases where they didn't have step-ups discreetly, but they had, you know, each, each year your rent would rise or your base rent would rise as a function of the CPI index. So it'd be interesting to see if we go back to more of kind of targeted step-ups that really want to go up with inflation, you know, if that's going to be a big enough thing where you, you see that translate, but yeah, it's, it's definitely something that's on the interest rate side, curious for all everybody, you know, we have people on that are, I find extremely smart that will have complete opposite opinions on inflation and interest rates.   So it's one of those things where you watch carefully, but in terms of having a crystal ball for where, where rates are going to go, I mean, I think I've confidently said rates will have to go up for the last 10 years.   Colin (33m 5s): Yeah, that's right. That's right. And, and, and eating a bit of humble pie is essential when, when, when prognosticating about these saints, because it's, you know, it's, it's almost like predicting currencies. There's just so much that goes in to, to, to, you know, what the fed does or what the bank of Canada does. And, you know, you can raise rate rates quickly or slowly. You might raise some that dance through there is, there's quite a lot in there.   And then you've got geopolitics, you've got a health pandemic and, and, you know, so sitting in 2019, nobody would have anticipated, right. Where rates would be today, just nobody would have gone in that. Right. So to your point, yes, I, I definitely eat some humble pie as well.   Jesse (33m 54s): Yeah, no, fair enough. You, you control what you can control. And, you know, we were in one of those few industries where you can directly almost directly pass on inflation to your customer, but it's a interesting point, especially in the Canadian environment, when you talk about student rentals where you essentially can mark to market your rental rates almost almost annually, usually two years, three years. But, you know, for those that don't know the Canadian environment, even in multi res, even though they're one year leases, you're not really marketing to market within, you know, every year, you know, the turnover can be, depending on the asset can be quite a bit different than, than student res.   Yeah,   Colin (34m 32s): Absolutely. And that, and, and, and that will be interesting going forward, right? Because you had folks in the last year or so, depending on the market and depending on the product, and this is more of a condo shadow inventory point that moves to take advantage of some of the lower rents in the multi-res side, that due to, you know, rent control, both, you know, use Toronto or Ontario as an example, you would think that the turnover rates going to decline materially, at least in the short term, as a result and in, in the student world, you know, it's, it's doubly interesting.   So number one, you've got your normal turnover folks graduate, but you also have this year and next year cold called the bulge in the class. You've got people that might've delayed, that are now taking the class people that were at home that are now going back to campus. You've got campuses that were virtual, like Ryerson here in Toronto that are going back to in-person in January. So that re all of that combined, and then you've got international students that are coming back.   It makes it a really interesting place to be in the student world. Yeah.   Jesse (35m 50s): Yeah, for sure. Colin, I want to be respectful of the time here, but I do want to talk about the, the black opportunity fund for those that don't know what it is. I just want to, you know, before we, we ask our final questions here, I mean, just in kind of asking the question, are you able to talk a little bit about the fund moving on to kind of culture in our commercial real estate world? You know, we can talk about specifically here in our area, but I think culture is very similar, our commercial real estate culture.   So I'd like to just kind of get your view on where we're at right now, from your point of view, you know, we're what improvements from a cultural standpoint you think that we can make and, and yeah. And on that talking a little bit about the fund and what it is.   Colin (36m 37s): Yeah, absolutely. So first the culture culture in real estate, in the commercial real estate world, it is a highly congenial culture and relies a lot on personal and interpersonal interaction and the log on the power of networks. And that's just a global global point and familiarity with each other on the basis, usually of doing deals and transactions and working through situations, none of that's overly bad.   What I have found, whether it's going to expo in new Nick or whether it's going to, you know, an animal con conference in Beijing is it's extraordinarily a male and be uniform. And when I stepped back from that, I think, you know, the folks that occupy our properties are not all male and not all uniform. And we live in one of the most incredibly rapidly changing and advancing times ever, right?   We're in the fourth industrial revolution and everything literally is changing. And so how can an owner operator of real estate realistically tell their investors that they're the best in the world at what they do, but their staff is only, you know, only calls from a quarter of the population in the country or city in which they're in. I just don't think it's possible. There are smart people out there, brilliant people out there that would make fantastic real estate investors that aren't actually able to get into real estate for X, Y, Z at ABC reasons.   So I think that's a problem for the real estate industry as much or more than it is a problem for society. But if we can solve that problem, we create better outcomes. And this isn't just that, you know, this isn't a CSR thing. I E the thing at the back of the annual report and where everybody's smiling, no, this is actually a, Hey, you can do, you can create better returns by having smarter people running the strategies, running the real estate.   So what's the black opportunity fund, a billion and a half world's largest pool of capital to fund a black led black focus, black serving charities nonprofits on one hand businesses entrepreneurs on the other hand. And why, because when we went through the last two years accelerated by what happened, George Floyd, we saw a ton of organizations doing fantastic work, just subscale.   They just need a capital. And it, why? Because we thought, Hey, why don't we start an, you know, a scholarship? Well, there's a ton of organizations getting scholarships. Why don't we start an after-school program? There's tons of organizations. There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of nonprofits, by the way, didn't say charities because they don't have even the scale to get through the process to become a registered charity. So they're non-profits, but they're, you know, moms and pops doing their best with the limited resources that we, that they have.   So black opportunity for motivate contributions from corporations, governments, individuals, families, anybody, we think it's a whole, a candidate problem to scale up these charities, nonprofits on the businesses and entrepreneurs side. There are thousands of entrepreneurs and businesses, all of them virtually all of them, very small. And the number one issue statistically as surveyed is access to capital.   And there is both and a perception issue and also true difficulty accessing meaning financial institutions are less likely, and this was studied by the, the federal reserve are less likely to give to an individual of color. There, there are like more likely to be determined, to be high risk.   And as a result, individuals of color are less likely then to go to those financial institutions. So you have sort of this negative wheel created. And so we're just trying to break that and create an assessable pool of capital to provide. So that's the goal of the black opportunity fund. We have been raised capital TD just announced a couple of weeks ago, $10 million plus office space. Plus the conduct individuals, national bank announced 6 million, just over $6 million to, to the black opportunity fund.   There's been a number of other contributions, but we're early meaning we've got a ways to go. We spent a lot of time creating the infrastructure at the correct governance, the board, et cetera, et cetera. And it's been a huge effort, more than 300 folks involved. We talked to thousands of businesses and charities and all, all across the country. And that's important to geography. Folks think about Toronto and Montreal. They overlook St.   Johns and Halifax and equalizer. We want to focus completely across the country, French and English, female, and male, and, and, and also LGBTQ plus, et cetera, that is important to us. And so that's the black opportunity fund.   Jesse (42m 29s): Yeah, I think, I think for, you know, from the point of view of the industry, I think me personally, I think that's why it's important to have these carefully, these organizations do these care for careful, you know, dis w whatever you want to call them, disparate impact studies, but we're looking at what policy actually does at the end of the day. You know, we have XYZ goal for policy, but what is really happening in reality? One thing that really clicked for me was I was in business school years ago in Toronto, and we had a venture capital capitalist that was talking to our class.   And he said that he had his daughter, she was going into computer science and programming and university of Waterloo for, you know, the Americans listening pretty much our Silicon valley in Canada. And he said, he went, brought her into programming and it was an orientation. And as most people could imagine, 99.9, 9% male. And initially I remember thinking, well, you know, if, if you go into something and you have people that are interested in that and they want to do it, and it happens to be disproportionate to society, you know, that's people making, making decisions, but then you said something, I think it would always stuck with me.   And when we have these conversations, I always think about this is, he said, these are, this is the generation that's going to design the virtual reality in geography. We plan the way that we navigate the world is a lot of it is going to be on the computer. A lot of it is going to be software. Do you really want this one cohort of people, no matter how great they are with all the blind, you know, the blind side, you know, the blind spots that they have. Do you want that to be what creates the future and designs it, or do you want to have a multitude of different views where the collective blind spots, you know, create something that is very clear?   Colin (44m 22s): Yeah, no, that's exactly. That's exactly it. And the tech world to that point has had its owns for the realization. Cause you know, commercial real estate, isn't alone. I mean, I'd say broadly the investment world, same thing broadly, broadly the tech world. But if you stay, you know, I stepped back and I've, and I've posed this question and truly a few times, it's like, why, why is it that virtually all of the administrative assistants are female. And it's like, do you, do you grow up?   Are you born? And you grow up and there's an innate desire as a female to become an admin assistant that doesn't exist for males. And clearly the answer is no, at least at least my interpretation and understanding of medicine yields me to conclude. That's probably not the case. It's probably a societal expectation. But if you take it to your example or the instance of commercial real estate owners, you know, how, how is it that you will grow?   How can you grasp future trends? How will you understand how people want to live, work and play, how they want to shop the types of retailers? They w retailers that they want to go to the experience that they want to have in lifestyle oriented centers. How can you actually understand that? If it's five dudes planning out the layout of the mall, right? It just, I don't get it. So to me, it's kind of like, well, you want to, you want to draw people in so that you have these different points of view.   So   Jesse (46m 0s): You're just going to go to that mall and not have any place for, for your, any daycare to put your child.   Colin (46m 7s): Yeah. Pretty much   Jesse (46m 9s): Awesome. And okay. I've, you know, we've been very, very generous with your time here calling. We have four questions. We ask everybody on, on the show. So if you're cool, I'll S I'll send them your way.   Colin (46m 20s): Sounds good.   Jesse (46m 22s): Okay. What's one thing, you know, now in your career, you wish you knew when you started,   Colin (46m 27s): I say, boldly use using the Wayne Gretzky analogy, which is old flea. Think about where that puck is going and skate, where that puck is going versus looking at the shiny object today and going to that shiny object today.   Jesse (46m 46s): Yeah, that's great. I haven't heard that in a while B be where that thing or that puck is going to be not where it, not, where it is in terms of, we always ask guests in terms of what you would tell younger people, getting into our industry, and just generally your view of mentorship,   Colin (47m 3s): Jay mentorships, critical more than my mistakes has been not caring mentors throughout my career. As I progress, meaning I have lots of mentors as I began my career. And then you sort of, you know, go through the different levels and you know, you get busy, it falls off you, you know, whatever, it's a terrible thing. I think mentors are absolutely critical. Gives you a perspective on, on things that you're seeing today that, that person's seen in a different way, 3, 4, 5 different times, and can tell you what they did or what didn't do more important than that is a mentor calls out your bullshit.   And that's really important sometimes. And so that's valuable somebody coming into the industry today, what would I say? It is a relationship industry at the end of the day. I mean, you got to do the work you got to do well, you got to have passion for it. So if you don't have passion for real estate, don't go into real estate. So assuming you're passionate for real estate, it's a networking industry, it's a relationship industry. And so take that time to go out and take somebody to drinks.   Or if you don't drink, take them to lunch, whatever it is, because that, that is what gets your career going in the industry.   Jesse (48m 29s): Yeah, absolutely. What is one or two books or podcasts that you are constantly recommending?   Colin (48m 35s): Yeah, that's a good question. I do like Malcolm Gladwell's books a lot. I wish I could say I've got a long book list. I wish I could say I've read all the books on that book list. There's a book that comes to mind. It was it's the power of one. I read it in literally high school, but it, it, it, it just speaks to me as a story about courage and resilience that, you know, I think is beneficial today.   And if I go back to your earlier question about advice, people used to say in, I banking world, it's a marathon, not a sprint. It absolutely is. And so to run that marathon, you need resilience and you need that, you know, that, that capacity to endure, to learn, to fall down, to, you know, make mistakes and to get up even better. Yeah. That, that book, the pair, the power of one was quite, quite instrumental to me, even though I read it so many years ago. Awesome.   Jesse (49m 39s): We'll put a link up to that. And the last question, my favorite layup first car make and model.   Colin (49m 48s): So funny enough, I've never, I've never owned a car because I've always lived in, in urban centers and have, you know, subscribed to the notion of taking the subway, walking everywhere and now taking Uber's. But the first car is likely to be some form of electric vehicle. Can't say it's going to be a Tesla, but it might be a, so let's go with Tesla and some electric vehicles.   Jesse (50m 16s): I like it. That's the first guest to prospect there, their first car. And the second one that, that they've always, they've always been public transit oriented. So I think that trend is going to continue going in that direction.   Colin (50m 30s): Yeah. I was early on that train cause you know, you know, it was very unusual, but you know, just like the, not having a landline telephone, a terrain that was early on that too, but eventually I'm going to have to give them, I know I can, I can see it coming in. It's probably going to be that Evy, hopefully when those batteries are better, there you go   Jesse (50m 50s): Calling for those, for those interested in getting in contact with you or anybody that wants to see, you know, what you guys are up to, what would be the best place to reach out?   Colin (51m 1s): Yeah. So LinkedIn is, is, is good. People do reach out through that in terms of finding, you know, what we're up to black opportunity fund for bear has a good website, lots of info there. We keep it up to date as it relates to T them and global real estate and our Canadian real estate, there is a T damn website, like most websites in the, in the investment world. We don't tend to overload it with information.   So, but T them does have a LinkedIn page. And so that is also quite active. So following either TDM on LinkedIn or on Twitter, there's there's information there. And if you don't want to do either and just want to message me on LinkedIn, you can, and eventually I'll get back to you.   Jesse (51m 54s): My guest today has been calling Lynch con thanks for being part of working capital   Colin (51m 59s): Pleasure. Pleasure. It was great conversation.   Jesse (52m 8s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one take care.

The Science Hour
CORBEVAX – A vaccine for the world?

The Science Hour

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 9, 2022 57:32


Now being produced in India CORBEVAX is grown in yeast in a similar way to several other widely available vaccines. The technology used to make it is far simpler and much more readily available than that used to produce mRNA vaccines. In theory, CORBEVAX could be produced cheaply in large quantities and go a long way to addressing the problems of Covid19 vaccine availability globally. It was developed by a team from Baylor College of Medicine in Texas including Maria Elena Bottazzi. Antibiotic-resistant superbugs are thought to have emerged in repose to the use of antibiotics, however, the discovery of a superbug living on the skin of hedgehogs has challenged this view. The superbug is thought to have been living with hedgehogs long before antibiotics were discovered. Jesper and Anders Larsen at the Danish State Serum Institute in Copenhagen explain. Modifying viruses, using them to infect or kill pest organisms is an attractive proposition. However, there are concerns over what might happen when they are released, particularly over their ability to mutate and evolve says Filippa Lentzos from Kings College Department of Global Health and Social Medicine in London. And The Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew have released the names of over 200 new species of plants and fungi discovered last year. Mycologist Tuula Niskanen and botanist Martin Cheek tell us more. Also... “I'm bored!” We can all relate to the uncomfortable - and at times unbearable - feeling of boredom. But what is it? Why does it happen? And could this frustrating, thumb-twiddling experience actually serve some evolutionary purpose? CrowdScience listener Brian started wondering this over a particularly uninspiring bowl of washing up, and it's ended with Marnie Chesterton going on a blessedly un-boring tour through the science and psychology of tedium. She finds out why some people are more affected than others, why boredom is the key to discovery and innovation, and how we can all start improving our lives by embracing those mind-numbing moments. (Image: Getty Images)

Science in Action
CORBEVAX – A vaccine for the world?

Science in Action

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2022 27:24


Now being produced in India CORBEVAX is grown in yeast in a similar way to several other widely available vaccines. The technology used to make it is far simpler and much more readily available than that used to produce mRNA vaccines. In theory, CORBEVAX could be produced cheaply in large quantities and go a long way to addressing the problems of Covid19 vaccine availability globally. It was developed by a team from Baylor College of Medicine in Texas including Maria Elena Bottazzi. Antibiotic-resistant superbugs are thought to have emerged in repose to the use of antibiotics, however, the discovery of a superbug living on the skin of hedgehogs has challenged this view. The superbug is thought to have been living with hedgehogs long before antibiotics were discovered. Jesper and Anders Larsen at the Danish State Serum Institute in Copenhagen explain. Modifying viruses, using them to infect or kill pest organisms is an attractive proposition. However, there are concerns over what might happen when they are released, particularly over their ability to mutate and evolve says Filippa Lentzos from Kings College Department of Global Health and Social Medicine in London. And The Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew have released the names of over 200 new species of plants and fungi discovered last year. Mycologist Tuula Niskanen and botanist Martin Cheek tell us more. (Image: Getty Images) Presenter: Roland Pease Producer: Julian Siddle

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi
Avsnitt 334 Del 2 - "Game of the Year 2021 - Topp 20 till Topp 10! Sedan koras 'Årets spel'"

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2022 103:57


Medverkande i detta avsnitt är: Fredrik, Lotta, Maxx, Mattias, Joel och Jesper!Då var det äntligen dags att verkligen syna spelen i sömmarna - och först plocka ut de tio spel som når topp 10, och sedan även försöka få rätsida på vilka spel som platsar vart! Med andra ord kommer det både vara svårt, jobbigt och bubbligt! Om ni INTE lyssnat på avsnitt 1 av dessa två Game of the Year avsnitt, så når ni det här!Nåja, här kommer finalen på Årets spel - Game of the Year 2021! Hoppas ni tycker om utslaget!Ps. Om ni vill dela med er vilket spel Ni tyckte var bäst från 2021 - hör då antingen av er via våra sociala medier, eller direkt via mail på info@nordlivpodcast.se. Dessa spel gick vidare till topp 20:  | Chorus | Death´s Door | Deathloop | Forza Horizon 5 | Guilty Gear: Strive | Humankind | Inscryption | It Takes Two | Kena: Bridge of Spirits | Little Nightmares 2 | Loop Hero | Metroid Dread | Monster Hunter Stories 2: Wings of Ruin | Psychonauts 2 | Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart | Resident Evil Village | Returnal | Tales of Arise | The Ascent | The Riftbreaker Hoppa gärna med i vår Discord, där vi har omröstningar på olika ämnen och diskussioner om allt nördigt. Låter det intressant, ja tryck här i så fall.★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Bernstein & McKnight Show
Transition: Development of Jesper Horsted

Bernstein & McKnight Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2022 24:00


Dan Bernstein and Leila Rahimi were joined by Laurence Holmes for transition, where they discussed Bears general manager Ryan Pace's past missteps and lost it at the thought of tight end Jesper Horsted's development. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi
Avsnitt 334 Del 1 - "Game of the Year 2021 - Topp 40 ska bli 20!"

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 2, 2022 115:26


Medverkande i detta avsnitt är: Fredrik, Lotta, Maxx, Mattias, Danny, Joel och Jesper!2021 var ett makalöst år - och under detta år har mängder med spel flutit under den metaforiska bron. Just därför måste man givetvis kora vilket och vilka spel som står ut.Först måste man definiera vilka spel som ens är nominerade och vilka som går vidare till den åtråvärda Topp 20-gruppen. Så med det sagt, låt oss nu samlas och filtrera denna härliga mix av spel, till bara tjugo stycken. Ett inte allt för enkelt uppdrag, kan man milt sagt säga.Dessa spel är nominerade:  | Persona 5 Strikers | Olija | Ys IX: Monstrum Nox | Bravely Default 2 | Little Nightmares 2 | Lost Words: Beyond The Page | Monster Hunter Rise | It Takes Two | Returnal | Resident Evil Village | Necromunda: Hired Gun | Strangeland | Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart | Mighty Goose | Tohu | Backbone | NieR Replicant ver.1.22474487139 | Scarlet Nexus | The Ascent | Death´s Door | Sniper Ghost Warrior Contracts 2 | NEO: The World Ends With You | Monster Hunter Stories 2: Wings of Ruin | Humankind | Psychonauts 2 | Tales of Arise | Guilty Gear: Strive | Life is Strange: True Colors | Eastward | Kena: Bridge of Spirits | Deathloop | Metroid Dread | Back 4 Blood | The Riftbreaker | Forza Horizon 5 | Inscryption | Chorus | Loop Hero | Halo Infinite | Shin Megami Tensei V Hoppa gärna med i vår Discord, där vi har omröstningar på olika ämnen och diskussioner om allt nördigt. Låter det intressant, ja tryck här i så fall.★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Lundströms Bokradio
Jesper Högström hittade okänd kärlekshistoria i författaren Tora Dahls dagbok

Lundströms Bokradio

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 2022 44:51


Gunnar Ekelöf, Artur Lundkvist, Harry Martinson, Nils Ferlin, Eyvind Johnson, Ivar Lo-Johansson och Erik Lindegren. I en villa på Parkvägen på Lidingö samlades poeterna på 1930-talet. Värdfolk var makarna Tora Dahl och Knut Jaensson och litteratursamtalen stod i centrum för samvaron. Författaren Jesper Högström är gäst hos Marie Lundström. När Jesper Högström skulle skriva Gunnar Ekelöfs biografi hittade han Tora Dahls dagböcker på Kungliga Biblioteket. Ekelöf fick vänta. Med det digra och ibland pikanta materialet i Dahls dagböcker kunde Högström istället levandegöra livet på Parkvägen i boken "Jag vill skriva sant Tora Dahl och poeterna på Parkvägen". I dagböckerna framgår det att Tora Dahl haft  kärleksförhållanden med både Erik Lindegren och Gunnar Ekelöf. Och hon skildrar hur det var att vara "husmor", kvinna och författare i villan på Parkvägen med de unga poeterna som återkommande, ofta övernattande, gäster.Programmet sändes första gången i oktober 2021.Skriv till oss! bokradio@sverigesradio.seProgramledare: Marie LundströmRedaktion: Maria Askerfjord Sundeby och Anna-Karin Ivarsson (producent)

Madridista.dk Podcast
All-time favoritspillere: Panelet med hver deres kombineret XI

Madridista.dk Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 31, 2021 77:18


På Madridista.dk Podcast-teamet vil vi gerne ønske jer et rigtig lykkebringende nytår. For lang tid siden foreslog vores dedikerede lytter, Klaus Due, at vi skulle prøve at sætte et hold med vores yndlings-spillere. Den udfordring har Daniel inviteret Nicklas, Malthe og Jesper til at tage op og vi tør godt love, at vi kommer vidt omkring. Lad propperne springe, mens du lytter til vores respektive bud. Godt nytår!

Mediespanarna
517. Gott nytt offentligt samtal

Mediespanarna

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 30, 2021 54:11


Vilka är de tre tråkigaste vägsträckorna på E4:an när man åker fullsmockad bil i hundra mil? Och hur mår den offentliga debatten under 2021? Jesper och Erik startar vid Capitolium, passerar förbud av critical race theory och skol-litteratur samt slutar i svensk signalpolitik mot public service.

Olikheter - En podcast om ledarskap
Hur kan vi sammanfatta året 2021?

Olikheter - En podcast om ledarskap

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 30, 2021 12:28


Tar vi tid till reflektion om hur året har varit? Är det verkligen viktigt? I dagens avsnitt får vi lyssna på Jesper Richert och Nicole Vujanovics tankar om hur man kan gå tillväga för att avsluta året på bästa sätt. 

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
How Brie Schmidt Grew her Real Estate Portfolio by 50 units in 1 year | EP85

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 29, 2021 44:07


Brie Schmidt acquired her First Investment Property in 2011 and left the Corporate World in 2014 when she became a Full Time Real Estate Investor. Brie is the Managing Broker of Second City Real Estate, a Full Service Brokerage Working with new Investors and Seasoned Investors Looking to Expand their Knowledge of the Industry and their Portfolio. In this episode we talked about: Brie's First Steps in Real Estate Switching to Real Estate on a full-time basis 2021 Portfolio Review Capital Deployment The Difference Between Chicago and Milwaukee Property The Active Investment Strategy  Property Management 1031 Exchanges Regulatory Environment from the Landlord-Tenant Prospective Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: http://www.secondcity-re.com/agent/brie/ Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Hey, my name is Jesper galley and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. We have a special guest today that is Brie Schmidt. Brie acquired her first investment property in 2011 and left the corporate world in 2014.   When she became a full-time real estate investor is the managing broker of second city real estate, a full service brokerage working with new investors and seasoned investors, looking to expand their knowledge of the industry and their portfolio. I had the special pleasure of being on a panel with Bree in new Orleans at the bigger pockets conference. Bree, how are you doing I'm   Brie (54s): Dan. Great. Thanks. How are you?   Jesse (56s): I'm doing fantastic. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show. I thought just, you know, we were talking before the show. I think it would be really interesting to have you on because we talked a lot, but you know, across that panel and I think it would be a treat for listeners to talk not just about multiple larger units when it comes to multi residential, but to talk about the mid and lower size units or smaller size units and kind of approach it from the perspective of the kind of unique markets that you're in. So maybe to kick us off, why don't you give us a little bit of a, of a background for yourself, for listeners, how you got into real estate?   Brie (1m 35s): So I always say I used to be a normal person. I used to have like a normal job and normal, you know, grind go to the grind kind of goals in life. So I used to work in advertising sales. I used to work in business development and advertising sales never really saw myself doing anything different. You know, it was really had aspirations of being a female CEO one day. So I live in the Chicago market, which we were talking about before show is a somewhat unique market, as far as housing stock.   There's very few cities in this country that have a large portion of two to four unit multi-units. So depending on the neighborhood in Chicago, it can be between 50 and 70% of our housing stock is two to four unit properties. And they're generally about a hundred thousand dollars, less than a single family home. So at the time I was think I was just getting engaged and my fiance and I were talking about, and you're like, what are our life plans? They're like, well, we want to, we want to buy a single family house, but like, we don't need, we don't need that sort of space right now.   So that was our plan was we bought a three unit property. We did a quote-unquote house hack, you know, standard FHA loan. And our plan was, you know, at some point we would need more space. We could, you know, take out a wall, move a staircase. Now we took up two of the three floors. And then at some other point we'll need the other space. We'll just, you know, get and take out a wall and move a staircase. And we'll eventually just take this house and convert it to a single family home. So that was our hundred, like end all be all goal with real estate investing. About three months after we bought the property, my father was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of cancer and he passed away a few months later.   And the thing is the day before he was supposed to retire is when he passed away and we already planned his retirement party and it now became his wake. And it really resonated with me as, because I would just think back of all the things my dad would say, like, when I retire, I'm going to go do this. When I retire, we're going to go to Thailand. You know, I'll retire after you get married or I'll retire when your brother had finished his PhD. And like, he always had all these dreams and goals that he never got to see because he never took action on it.   So here I am, 28 years old, you know, working 60 hours a week, traveling all over the country for somewhere else. And I'm like, this sucks. You know, like this is a terrible life. I've got, you know, 30 plus years till retirement. And I'm going to be in the same position as my dad. You know, I've always wanted to go to Italy. I've always wanted to go do these things and I've done nothing with them because I was too focused on work. So it really changed my perspective on life and decided to reorientate things.   And that's how I got into real estate investing. So you'll, you'll figure out, you know, I just go, I'm a bull in a China shop kind of person. So within the, we bought our first property in 2011, we bought another property in 2012. We did it again in 2013, that 2013 property was a renovation property. We bought like a 1960s house and completely renovated it, you know, pulled cash out. And that is when I found a website called BiggerPockets, which I'm sure you know about.   And it completely changed everything that I was doing. I had never talked with another investor. I had never read a book about investing. I was just kinda, you know, winging it. And it opened up this whole new world of possibilities. So we were sitting on a decent chunk of cash and now I had all these possibilities in front of me and opportunities to learn. So we went full forward ahead. So we looked at other markets to invest in while I love, love, love Chicago.   It's not really a cashflow based market. It's more of a balanced, you know, similar, not as expensive as California, but you know, similar sort of market, New York as well. You're just not going to be retiring off cashflow here. So I, I took some time. I looked at Milwaukee, Kansas city, Indianapolis spent some time in those markets, learning those markets and we decided to invest in Milwaukee. So for you guys that don't know it's about an hour and a half drive, so it's a, you know, easily commutable distance.   So in, let's see, 2015, we bought 10 properties and then 2016, I bought another eight. And then I had partners. I worked with that. I bought another 10 in 2016. So we went quite all in and fast growth trajectory on our acquisitions in those markets. So that's kind of my, and then I started a brokerage firm here in Chicago that was started in 2014. We are the largest boutique brokerage firm working with investors in the Chicago and market. And then I also do the Midwest real estate networking conference where the largest conference in the Midwest for real estate investors.   So everything, when I say I used to be a normal person with normal hobbies, that's what I mean. Like I used to be able to small talk and chit chat about sports or shopping. And now my whole life has become real estate, which is fantastic, but it's all I want to talk about. Cause it's all that meal. It's fun for me. So it was taken over my life in a very, very good way.   Jesse (6m 56s): Yeah. Well the, the energy didn't go out and I noticed when we were, we were at the conference and it's, that's great to hear it. When, when you made that transition, I'm always curious because it's not a dissimilar story where we have guests on that had a quote unquote, normal life or normal job, normal, whatever. And then they move into real estate investing. What, at what point in that kind of, you know, 20 11, 20 12 was the point where you said, okay, let's go in full time and, you know, get, you know, not, not continue to pursue the, the day job.   Brie (7m 26s): So it wasn't like a, it wasn't a pre-planned conscious decision. To be honest, the plan always was I was making great, you know, I had a great salary. I actually loved what I did. I had spent nine years building up my career. I did, it was not something that I wanted to walk away from. So the plan was never for me to leave my job and do real estate full time. Real estate was always going to be a hobby on the side. So it was when we were looking at doing our first set of properties in Milwaukee, that I started to realize like one day it was like, well, I always wanted to make sure that my real estate investing never got in the way of my day job.   And then one day woke up and realized that my day job was getting in the way of my real estate investing show. But I'll tell you this story. I used to travel a lot for work. And we were at the airport, it was a 6:00 AM flight to Atlanta. So it was like five 15 in the morning. I'm staying at the airport with my boss who just had a baby. She was like, I don't know, baby was like four months old. So we were flying down to Atlanta and then we had to get a car and rent a car to go to Columbus, Georgia, which was like a two hour drive for a two hour meeting.   And then drive back to Atlanta to take an airport plane ride home because she had to get home. She had a newborn and I remember sitting in the airport with her at like five 15 in the morning. It's like the butt crack of Dawn. And I get a travel alert on my phone. Like, so when it comes to travel, like Istanbul has been like my number one bucket list place. And there was a flight alert. It was like 400 bucks to go to Istanbul and I'm staring at us and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to go to Istanbul. And she's like, what one? I'm like, I don't know, there's 400 bucks. Like I'm going to go whatever. And she started going through, like, this was April.   She starts going through my calendar while you can't go this month. Cause you've got this and then you've got this. And then like at the end, she's like by October, like, yeah, you can take a long weekend. And I was like, screw this. Like, this is not the life that I want. Like if I want to go to Istanbul, I want to go to Istanbul. So between it was around the same time that we were mid acquisition with our properties. Like I said, we were buying five properties. I remember calling my commercial lender and being like, Hey, if I quit my job, is that going to affect my ability to acquire more properties?   And as soon as you said, no, I was like, great. I'm giving my notice. And that was it. So it was like a two week, like, Hey, is this gonna, are we going to completely blow ourselves up by doing this? Or no? And the answer was no. So we just did it. I just did it.   Jesse (9m 51s): Yeah. I feel like the, there is this point where people, especially like yourself that have a job that has a good income. There's a beginning stage when you're investing where it is an asset. Obviously the W2 income, T4 in Canada, where, you know, lenders are looking at that. But you do get to a certain point where the assets are become more important than you as the individual. Did you experience?   Brie (10m 14s): Yeah, exactly. But if it wasn't, we were already past the point of doing residential loans. We were already well into like the commercial loan process and that was pretty much what we would be doing moving forward. So as if you don't know, as a us and Canada might be different, you know, those are two very different processes. So it was important for me to know that the commercial under that we were working with, I said, I've done, you know, 23 loans with him. You know, they, they were very strong as far as like backing me personally and financially, as long as he was okay with it, I was ready to go.   So I said like, this was probably mid April. I left my job at, and by the end of June, I was, I quit and done diminish doing real estate full-time ever since.   Jesse (10m 60s): Right on. So what take us up to 2021? What, what does the portfolio look like?   Brie (11m 5s): It's less so, yeah, I've actually sold, I didn't sell anything in 2020, but 20 18, 20 19. I sold some properties about half of my portfolio. So this is also a very interesting story. I was at a conference, very similar, like the bigger pockets conference we were at new Orleans. And I remember the first session, the first morning was an economist. I was actually in Philly with Dave Vanhorn's conference. So this economist is on stage. And he's saying a lot of big words. I don't know, you know, yield curves.   And I don't know, I'm writing things down. Like I should Google that later. So at the end of the conference, the, there was a charity event and the economist had had was the auction off three hours of his time. As for this charity fundraiser. I'm like, this is a perfect opportunity for me to learn, right. What he's talking about. Because while I understand like real estate economics, and while I understand the market economics that I'm in personally, I don't understand on a national or global level, right? How all these other things that are going on are going to affect my market.   That's why I wanted to learn. So I bought his time as part of the auction. And one of the things he did was he wanted to go through my entire portfolio with me five years back, right. Looking at my cashflow, my projections, something that I hadn't done. Like every year I would view my portfolio, right? Like we all do, but I never really like went back and looked at it from a high-level five-year perspective. And he put on all these different calculations and I don't even, I still don't even understand half of them that he did for me. But one of the things that we looked at is what was my three-year average cashflow and my five-year average cashflow, what would I get if I sold the property less than the fees and how does that, that profit relate to annual cashflow?   And I realized quite quickly there was some properties that like, there was just always something, right. There was always something going on with these properties. At the end of the day, if I sold the property, I will be getting like 15 years cashflow up front. I'm like, well, that makes stupid for me to keep these properties. So that has become for the last three years when I'm part of my process is every year I not only review my pre like in my, or what we did and what our numbers were this year.   I also look at my three-year, my five-year. And then since acquisition numbers and reevaluate my portfolio every year, I hire a local realtor in Milwaukee, even though I'm licensed there, I don't, I'm not super active there to do a CMA on my properties. And I rebalance things and I re reallocate things and see, Hey, is this the right? Is it keeping this property, the right thing to do? Or at what point does it make sense for me to sell? So that's, that was a learning experience I took from a med economist. Yeah.   Jesse (13m 54s): Yeah. And it's sometimes it's like, you get that second opinion or you just to get something that, not that you weren't accountable, but kind of high level taking a look at your portfolio. I found a very similar thing happened with me earlier in my career, where there was very similar to you just cap X that would happen. So, so technically your P and L looks good. It looks okay. But really at the end of the day, your cashflow statement is getting hit with these large expenses. And, you know, 1960 would have been a newer pro property. Like one of the first properties we bought was in the early 19 hundreds.   So, you know, stone foundation, knob and tube. And what I was finding was that there were particular properties that were just these cash, like just pits, because you'd just be dumping in. And, you know, even if you average out capital expenditures, if you pick properties that have, you know, a lot of maintenance, you really gotta be careful about how you're smoothing that out over the, the time that you hold. And, you know, sometimes there's an inflection point, whether that's five years in seven years in it's, like you said, it just makes so much more sense to sell it and redeploy somewhere else.   Brie (14m 56s): Absolutely. Yeah. It was a very interesting exercise for me because I always just looked at things. I said, like, I looked at things on an annual basis. I never went back and looked at things from the beginning or the last couple of years and was like, wow, you know, this property is not produce thing. Right. And since I bought it, the values have gone up, like I would make, I had one property. I was going to make like 33 years cashflow I'm like done sell it now. So it's become an interesting exercise.   Jesse (15m 27s): So I want to ask the, the question that so many investors are asking today is w we see it from sellers, but just in general, that number one, you know, where do you, if you do sell a property, where do you even deploy capital? Because the market is so competitive right now, I'm curious, was Chicago, Milwaukee, was this something where you did sell properties in Chicago and then Milwaukee kind of looked like a, a place where you deployed or were you guys doing it at the same time? How did that, how did those two locations come about?   Brie (15m 57s): Yeah. So everything in Chicago, we acquired from 2011 to 2013, and we have not sold any of those properties. Everything in Milwaukee was pretty much 2014 to 2016, and we've sold about half of those properties. And so like, our portfolio was about 31 properties before we started selling anything off. And our newest property was built in 1910. So when you talk about old, like that's just the market, you know, like these, these were older 1890s, 19 hundreds, 19 times are when the properties were generally built.   Jesse (16m 34s): So sorry, the, the property, like the, the move to actually continue investing. When you deploy that capital, wha what are their active investments that you wanted to put them in? Was it, was it the strategy to put it into the properties that you currently have? How did you deal with that once you had that windfall?   Brie (16m 51s): I'll let you know when I figure that out, it's been terrible.   Jesse (16m 56s): Well, we were just talking about this before the show. They're just talking about the inventory issue in all of north America.   Brie (17m 3s): Yeah. I think I'm like, I, this, you know, this may or may not be the right decision, but I really I've gotten this far in my investing career by trusting my gut and nothing. Nothing has been interesting to me since, you know, I've, I've looked at some like multi-family investments, but very few actually piqued my interest, mobile home as well. It's like, I'm dabbling into that stuff, but nothing that's been like, Hey, this, like the doors have opened, I see the light.   This is the path forward. So really put, put the cash in the market and let it sit until I decide what to do with it.   Jesse (17m 43s): Yeah. Fair enough. So, can we talk a little bit, like I said, at the outset, I think investors would get a lot from this, you know, two to five unit world that you live in, especially in these areas. Can you talk a little bit about why an investor would go into say a three, a triplex or a five unit as opposed to 25 30, even if they have the capital to do both   Brie (18m 4s): Same things like for us? Like, so when we, when we went into the Milwaukee market, we bought 18 properties in nine months, 67 units. It was, so we obviously had the capital to buy one big building if we wanted, but chose to do smaller buildings and said for a lot of different reasons, a, like we just talked about, you know, if some of the properties are underperforming, I could sell the ones that are underperforming and keep the ones that are performing without having to sell the entire property as a whole.   So that was part of the reason. And like I said, all of our properties are within like about a mile and a half radius. So it's not completely spread out. Like everything is within less than a 10 minute drive from each other. But one of the main reasons was the properties are like, obviously residential properties are valued differently right. Than commercial. So when I was looking at the, the cap rates and the returns that I could get, they were much higher on two to four unit properties. And they were on these multis. So again, the markets, Chicago and Milwaukee, you know, got the neighborhoods can be between 50 and 70% housing stock, at least two to four unit properties.   They're everywhere you drive down the street. Right? And like half the block is a small apartment buildings. So there's a lot of different options of different inventory. But the thing was when it comes to the small Maltese, at least in my markets, they learned pay is water. Everything else is separate to the tenants, right? So there's no common meters for anything. When you look at insurance, right? I'm getting homeowners insurance that, or my business, you're getting commercial policies. Your insurance rates are much higher than mine.   You generally pay corporate water. I pay residential water. You know, there's, there's like my taxes right. Are different than your taxes. So when I was looking at, you know, up to about, I would say about 20 units that evens out, because when you think about it, if you've got a 15 unit right next to my three unit, and at the same size, same condition, you know, two bedroom apartment, we're getting the same rent, right? Your 15 unit does not offer the amenities like the pool, the, you know, the doorman to increase runs, right? So we're getting the same sort of rent, but your expense ratios are much higher than mine.   So it came out, like I said, once you got to about 20 units, then your expenses ended up being closer to what my expenses were. And then the cap rates even doubt, but like anything on you, it's like Tanya properties. And we see this all the time in Chicago. Cause we get a lot of investors that come to us and say, Hey, you know, we want to get into like these, you know, small midsize. Multi-families like, great, I'll start running some numbers for you, but taking a consideration. I want to show you something else. And I'll show them side by side. Like here's, you know, here's 10 properties that, that are like between 10 and 30 units.   And here's, you know, 10 properties that are two to four unit properties. The cap rate is always higher. So the risk though, is that if the market, the real estate market changes, right, you're subject to comps, not at a Y in the residential world, but financing is also easier as well. We don't have, you know, you can get 30 year fixed on a two to four unit property. You're not getting a five or seven year arm.   Jesse (21m 14s): And in terms of the investors that you typically work with, or even yourself is for the most part, the strategy buy and hold with, with the size   Brie (21m 22s): Of units.   Jesse (21m 25s): And one of the things, you know, you'll hear people say, even at the 20 unit size, in terms of property management, you know, whether, you know, there, you have the economies of scale, how do you handle that?   Brie (21m 36s): It's a great question. So I think it depends on your market, right, Chicago, where at least where I work is more of an AB type market. So even, you know, even clients that I've had that live out of state, a lot of them can self-manage or we have a company here locally. I think they've expanded to, if you go to the markets now called nest egg. So it's not that I got rent, they do all the cart, property management. So like I've been using them since my maintenance, since I was pregnant with my first kid. But like, I don't use them for, I do my own run collection.   I do my own lease ups, but I have that option if I want to, but there's no monthly fee. So, you know, I just had an issue this morning, a tenant reported an issue, you know, it goes through their system, they diagnose it, they take pictures, whatever it is. And then they send me emails saying like, Hey, we think this is going to cost this amount of dollars and this many hours, who do you want to schedule the repair, the tenant, you know, then they call my tenant and they work it out. It's like, I have not been in my properties for repairs and years. And if no one makes a repair requests, I don't get charged anything.   There's no monthly fees. So that sort of product works really well in the Chicago market where, you know, it's not, it's not very high touch, right. Milwaukee on the other hand is more of a C class market is absolutely high-touch. You definitely need full-time property management services, but that's what it was. We grew so quickly said when we came to our, so by the, as after two years, we were at just under a hundred units, that's enough to be important to a property manager.   And in the beginning I had my own in-house team. I tried doing it myself. And it was terrible because you can't have one person. Right. It's what I learned. One of the learning lessons I had, you know, while the, the property manager that I chose was fantastic with my tenants. Right. He lived in the community, he actually owned some of the properties that I bought. My first properties were bought from him, you know, great relationship with the tenants, with service, with service workers, repairs, right. All that was handled, knew nothing about accounting, you know?   And like he would go to him and he'd go deposit like 10 grand in my bank account. And I'd be like, what's the spore? He's like, oh, you know, I've got the receipts in my pocket. I'm like, that's not. So I, like, I still had to do a large portion of the business. So one of the things, you know, property management is a terrible job. I would being a teacher or a property manager, like the two things I would never want to do in life.   But it takes to have a well-rounded property management team requires multiple skills, right. One person can not do it and do it well. So by outsourcing it, you're getting multiple people's positions and skillsets. So that was a life lesson that I learned. I thought I was smart by having my own in-house team. I could control things more. It was 20 times the work. It was terrible.   Jesse (24m 44s): Yeah. I find with property management, the, the companies that have been successful doing it, they, you really have to look at it as a full time full service business, and you need the personalities for that. And I think it was M zero Brian Berger, J Scott, we had on another bigger pockets contributors that I think w their, their point was 70, 75 unit pluses, where, you know, you can, you can afford to have your own super in the building. So like that, you know, even with the property management company, but also having that super in the building, you know, it is at that point where you can scale and you have a point of contact that's in addition to your property management company.   But I'm always curious, because I think, I think in the two to fives, it really is dependent on the market. Like when I got into real estate, I was in student residents. So a lot of them were like these boarding houses that had five tenants, or, you know, five students or eight students where those markets, yeah. You got some people shake the mouse a little, but you also have, what was nice is you actually have this little cottage industry of property management companies, at least back when I was in school that were local, that would manage, you know, houses.   And you had that ability to scale. And like you said, I think you've made a good point there, which I think oftentimes gets overlooked. It's that you're, you're still going to a property management company and still say, Hey, this is 80 units, or this is 40 units. It's just, they're spread out.   Brie (26m 11s): Yeah. It's one of the things I was at, like one of my biggest pieces of advice, when someone tells me, like, I want to invest in Milwaukee, Oregon, or cashflow market. Right. If your plan is to buy a small multi, and then like every year acquire another couple of units, you're going to sink, you know, it's, you're, you're not going to go well for you. So when I was buying our properties in Milwaukee, one of the things I did is after we sold the property, after we bought the property, I call the seller and ask them like, Hey, you know, deals done. Like what, any lessons you can teach me or things I can learn.   The best majority of them were like out of state investors who that was their problem. They only had one or two properties. I remember this one property we bought, we bought it December 1st. The guy told me, he's like, you know, the top unit has been vacant for like three months. We've dropped rent. Like I just can't do it anymore. I'm like, really? Because we bought it, we bought it on a Wednesday. And my property manager posted that night. We had like five showings this week on it. We got it rented out. It's like the property manager can make or break. Absolutely you return. And if you're only, if you've got like three properties or, you know, 10 units with one property manager, you aren't a priority.   The end of the day, I have a hundred units and you have ton. And we both have a vacancy. Gus, who's the priority. It's me. You know, and I don't do it very often, but whenever I have to, if I call my property manager and say, Hey, I need you to stop what you're doing right now and handle this. You better believe they're going to do it. Right. So that's where scale becomes incredibly important.   Jesse (27m 42s): Yeah. And it's nice that there are kind of companies like you mentioned, or even, even locally here where the technology is getting better, where you can actually have, you know, one off properties here and there. I know, not true for Chicago. I know Toronto, we have a huge condo market. Like it basically is our purpose built market. Rental markets are extended, but you know, it's challenging when you only have a few one-offs. Where are you? What do you, what did you think, would you say is the biggest difference between the Chicago and Milwaukee market   Brie (28m 14s): Price point? Number one, you know, Chicago is much more expensive, but again, like each market, whether it be Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Kansas city, they all have different, you know, ABC markets. So it just so happens that I got my start in investing in Chicago, which was more of a lead type market. I, my cashflow play is Milwaukee, which is the, I invest in a C class area. You know, I've looked at investing in a, Milwaukee's a B class areas.   And they're very similar returns where I get in Chicago for my air AB class areas here. So it just depends on what your strategy is, you know, at the end of the day. So part of that economist evaluation was also taking into effect or taking into account what my property values were. Right. And what if I were to sell everything, what I would would be at again, like my, my cashflow in Milwaukee per dollar spent is like almost triple what it is in Chicago.   So the end of the day, like, I always assumed like my, my money came from Milwaukee, right? Like it pays my bills at the end of the day. It did it. When you, when you throw in the appreciation I got from Chicago, like that's where I made my money. So I was looking at it again. There's two different strategies. At least I have two different strategies. Chicago is my wealth building. Right. My, my tenants call me once a year. You know, like they're generally very easy. They stay for a few years. It's not a high touch market.   You know, my property is just, I sit and maintain. Right. And then I'll get my money when I sell Milwaukee. On the other hand is the cashflow based market. That's where I bring in my, my monthly paycheck. We'll call it, you know, two totally different strategies. I like having the balance personally, but there's no right or wrong answer. There's no, you know, this is the best option I like having both.   Jesse (30m 12s): Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. I'm curious. The something that is unavailable to us connects is the 10 31 exchange in the states, the differing of taxes into a likened kind asset for, for any of the listeners that haven't heard us banter about it before, is it, is it applicable to investment properties that are purely residential? Can you use it for you can use it for both. Okay.   Brie (30m 37s): We do again, we do, we do a few times a year, 10 31 exchanges within our brokerage side of the business, but it sucks. I just had one, the, oh, this is terrible situation, terrible. Like, whoa. It was me. The guy sold the million dollar properties, but he was selling, he was selling a property in California, wanted to parlay that funds into Chicago. This was just in like October where our market started to get really slow. Inventory was terrible. He was from the time he was selling, he was then, you know, you've got 45 days and two weeks he was leaving for Germany for a month.   So he's like, listen, you know, we gotta find this property in two weeks. And then we're in Germany. You know, we've got things to do. And it just so happened. Like the day after closing, he called me, like, we actually need to leave for Germany tomorrow. So they were in Germany the whole time. And I was trying to find them a property. But like when we were looking, you know, between like one and 1.5 million, which for a two to four unit property is completely adequate budget for Chicago. We couldn't find anything for him. And he ended up taking the cap, gain tech, but at the end of the day, that's better than buying a bad investment.   Right. So, but it was a, it was a very stressful experience because I'd never met him in person. He was never going to be able to fly to Chicago and see the property. And I had 45 days to put something on a contract for him and try to guess what he wanted and what he would like, you know, like, so it was all like videos and it was just, it's just, it is what it is, but   Jesse (32m 10s): You know, it's our world,   Brie (32m 12s): But is her world   Jesse (32m 14s): Sabrina. I want to talk, but just one more thing before we get to some of the questions we ask every guest, I am just mindful of the time here. We could probably do a, another 45 minutes on just the second half of this story. But before we get there, I'm curious to know the regulatory environment from the landlord tenant board perspective. I have a, you know, we talked a little bit about this before. I have a suspicion that it's very similar to our market, very tenant friendly. How does that compare to Milwaukee?   You know, what's your experience been?   Brie (32m 48s): You could, I don't think you can find two different while California. You can't really find two different markets. And again, they're only an hour and a half drive from each other. So both offers similar returns. I would say, as far as the investment market, but yeah, Chicago has one of the strictest landlord-tenant ordinances in the country. I still invest here. You know, we've got plenty of clients that still invest here. It's really, to me, the landlord tenant ordinance is not, it's not super strict, but you have to know the rules, right. And that's where people get in trouble.   If they don't know the rules, everything is quite reasonable. Right. If you, you know, a general repair, you have 14 days to correct it. That's not an unreasonable request when it comes to like heat, hot water, electricity, like, you know, those sorts of things, you have 48 hours to correct. You know, got not in a reasonable request. It, but our eviction process is beyond terrible. I just had to summer my first eviction ever in Chicago, where, you know, I gave a ton of in 50 days and always I was not renewing his lease.   He started, he understood it. I rented out his unit. Like he let me do showings. And then like the week before it was like, I've got nowhere to go. I'm not leaving. Like, well, that's not really an option. Like I have someone moving in in like five days. So it was what we would consider a hold over tonight, which is still allowed to evict, even though we had the memorandum here, but it took, you know, two months before we even got him served through our court process. Milwaukee on the other hand is very landlord friendly.   I can get, let's see, when I give someone a five day notice the next day I can go and file in court. Typically I get a court date within seven to 10 days. And you go, when you show up to court, they pretty much ask you one question, which is, can you prove the rent you owe to this landlord is not what they say. And they'll start, you know, well, they were a shit landlord and all that. I don't care. She says, you owe this, do you have proof otherwise? And they're like, no, and they'll start ranting. And they're like, okay.   So what do you want to do? They'll go to me like that is, that is the only piece of information that they want to know. Right? They don't, they don't care about the other things. One of the other great things about Milwaukee's market as far as evictions is which we use. It's a tool we use quite often is they have a payment plan process within the court system. So again, a lot of times, you know, they fall behind, right? And they're, they're communicating. It's not like we want to evict them so we can work out a payment plan.   It's a court ordered payment plan. And as soon as they miss one payment, I just go straight to the court, show them document, signed an affidavit, boom. Sheriff comes. So it just there's no, I don't have to go back to court and we don't have to go back to, you know, like starting all of the process over again. It just picks up where we left off. If I were to do a normal eviction. So also a really win-win situation. Right? If they say that they can make these payments and they can get caught up, right. And they do that, then they don't get evicted. But if they fall behind, we have the option of just picking things up and not starting over again.   Milwaukee also has some really great rental assistance programs for tenants that do fall behind as well versus like Chicago. We, you know, we had a ton of apply for rental assistance back in June. I just got it now in December, you know? And luckily if I wasn't so accommodating, right. You know, it was five months of background. Like that's a lot of rent to, to go back, but Milwaukee just moves faster and they are a lot more, there's a lot more options within that market.   Port options or rental assistance options.   Jesse (36m 36s): Does Chicago have rent control?   Brie (36m 38s): No. Okay. Hey.   Jesse (36m 41s): Yeah. The gas. Yeah. W I would have been 50 50 on that. I know it's tenant friendly, but I don't, I didn't know if they went that far.   Brie (36m 52s): So luckily for us, it is part of our state constitution. And once you get out of the state or city of Chicago, it is a very, very red state. So to, to have rent control in Chicago, you have to have this state constitution amended and there's way too many conservatives to allow that to happen. So every year it happened, like every year someone brings it up, right. And every year it goes to the process and every year everyone freaks out about it. And every year it gets stopped quite quickly.   But if it wasn't, if it was up to the actual like cities or counties, we would absolutely have rent control here. But luckily it's on a state level.   Jesse (37m 35s): Yeah. I think if I think Jersey, what is a Jersey, California, New York Mahershala, Washington. I think, I think we're the opposite. If you can find a, like a pretty sure across country, we have some form of rent stabilization. But the big thing for us is that is when we have new tenants, we mark the mark to market the rents. So you kind of reset at market levels, but it's a bit of a different animal. That's great. I, I want to talk or let listeners know where they can go and kind of reach out to you. But before we get there, we've got four questions.   We ask every guest. So if you're ready, I'll, I'll send them over to ya. I agree with something, at least one thing that you know, now in your career, you wish you knew when you first started out,   Brie (38m 17s): Oh gosh, just one thing I can do a whole podcast and all the things, You know, again, I, I'm a big believer in trusting your intuition, right. And figuring out what works for you, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. So that takes time. That takes your own learning lessons. But as long as, like you said, I've made obvious mistakes. As long as I was confident in my decision, right. I have no one to blame, but myself and that makes me sleep at night, knowing that like, Hey, this is, this is just a bump in the path and it's going to be a learning lesson down the road.   So my advice would be, you know, really focusing on what you're doing, what your goals are, what your needs are, right. Where, where you can grow personally and then create your own path.   Jesse (39m 10s): Gotcha. Okay. In terms of, if one thing or a few things you could say to new investors, people getting into our industry regarding mentorship, what would that be?   Brie (39m 24s): I'm not a fan of a mentorship thing. You know, I don't think it's a gun. Your mentorship to me is you're, you're learning from someone, but you're trying to replicate what they're doing. Right. And that's not always, right. So I'd like, I get all the time, like, Hey, what, what neighborhoods do you buy in? Cause I want to buy there. I'm like, well, I have haven't I have a Nissan Pathfinder. Do you want to buy my car? Because I have that car. Like, you know, that doesn't mean like what I have my needs and goals are. So it was back to the first thing of, you know, mentorship, you know, isn't, shouldn't be a immediate goal for someone, I think, you know, utilizing sites like bigger pockets, bigger pockets, right?   Learning about your market, listening to podcasts, right? Take a little bit of information from everything that you're hearing and learning and figuring out what works best for you. That's what you need. And then once you're ready, right. Finding a good team, a good agent, right. A good brokerage, good, you know, lenders, lawyers, whatever that will help support you and what your goals are. But you should be the one dictating what your path is. Not someone else telling you what to do.   Jesse (40m 32s): Fair enough. What's a resource or book that you find yourself constantly recommending.   Brie (40m 37s): Oh, getting things done. I love that book. It has completely changed. Like you guys, like not only do I not want a landlord, but I own a brokerage firm. I also plan an event for real estate investors. I'm nine months pregnant and I've got a two year old right there. You know, there's, there's a lot of different things that come at me at different times through the day with so many different moving parts. Right. So having like an organizational prioritizing to do list right.   To, to be effective has really important. So I read the book, maybe I was actually too busy to read the book. So I bought the cliff notes to be perfectly honest, about five years ago. And I went from working, you know, 60 hours a week in my business to probably working 30. I, you know, cut out all the nonsense and really transformed my work-life balance because of that book. Yeah.   Jesse (41m 36s): And I think they've updated. We've had a guest before recommend this and I think they've updated some of the, the concepts. Cause I, I it's, it's like the book for, for like task management and organization. So I think it w I can't remember what the release date, but a lot has changed technologically, but I still love the, how they systematize everything in that book.   Brie (41m 57s): I am so full though. I have to write everything down. Like   Jesse (42m 1s): I remember like the bin you'd have to move things from the bin. Yeah.   Brie (42m 5s): I have to like physically write things down and like physically cross things off of my paper. I can't do like a word, you know, or technology just doesn't work for me. I'm too old.   Jesse (42m 14s): So speaking of Pathfinders, our last question, first car making.   Brie (42m 19s): Oh, Ford Thunderbird. Terrible bomb. Yeah. I was at, it was my dad's car that I bought off him. Right. I'm a terrible driver. Do you understand this? No, I think it was a V6 or a V8, whatever. I crashed it so many times. I'm just a terrible driver. I still am a terrible driver. My husband drives pretty much. He will not, my husband will not let me drive a car if he's in it.   Jesse (42m 48s): I will say this though. It is, it was an upgrade back then from the four tourists, which, which I spent my childhood,   Brie (42m 55s): It was a beast of a car though. You know, I said, I ran over curbs and ran into walls with that card and like never scrape on me, you know, but yeah. Thank you so much for having me on the show.   Jesse (43m 9s): I really appreciate it. If anybody's, you know, in your local area or would like to just reach out to you where, where would be the best place to, to go   Brie (43m 17s): I'm on BiggerPockets almost every single day. Some messaging me on bigger pockets, Brie Schmidt, or you can check out my website. It's a second city spelled out dash R e.com.   Jesse (43m 30s): Okay. We'll send them there. My guest today has been breached brief. Thank you for being part of working   Brie (43m 36s): Capital. Thank you so much.   Jesse (43m 45s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

SportCast
SportCast #133: Jesper Hospes: "Femke Kok hat seker wat te sykjen op de Spelen"

SportCast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2021 40:16


"As Femke Kok pykt, dan docht se seker mei", seit Jesper Hospes. Yn de Sportcast prate we op de tredde dei fan it OKT mei Hospes en Douwe de Vries oer Kok, Michelle de Jong en Jorrit Bergsma. We sjogge ek foarút nei de 1.500 meter foar froulju en de 1.000 meter foar manlju.

The View Masters
Episode 284: Klaus

The View Masters

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2021 49:52


Recorded December 9, 2021 A simple act of kindness always sparks another, even in a frozen, faraway place. When Smeerensburg's new postman, Jesper, befriends toymaker Klaus, their gifts melt an age-old feud and deliver a sleigh full of holiday traditions. – From IMDB Email Eric or Joe. Time – 49:52 min. / File Size – … Continue reading

Madridista.dk Podcast
Mindernes Allé: Panelets bedste Real Madrid-minder

Madridista.dk Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 24, 2021 49:47


På Madridista.dk Podcast-teamet vil vi gerne ønske jer en rigtig glædelig jul. Vores lille gave til jer bliver en tur ned af Memory Lane, hvor Daniel har bedt Nicklas, Malthe og Jesper give deres bud på et minde i disse tre kategorier: 1. Bedste stadion-minde 2. Bedste kamp-minde 3. Bedste spiller-minde Lad julefreden sænke sig med dette stykke lyd.

Slet ikke LIVE!
Bonusafsnit med pakkepost og udtrækning af vinder!

Slet ikke LIVE!

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 22, 2021 13:15


Mens Jakob sover, er Jesper gået i Brugsen. Hør brugsuddeleren, Leif, fortælle om arbejdet med de mange pakker, der lander i butikken i december, og hvordan du som kunde kan hjælpe til.  I baglokalet i Dagli'Brugsen trækker vi  hele 2 vindere i 2 forskellige konkurrencer.  Hvem mon er de heldige?Kend dit lokalområde og lyt til dine ultralokale nyheder hos os.Hvis du har kommentarer eller gode idéer til vores program, er du meget velkommen til at kontakte os. Send en mail til sletikkelive@gmail.com eller læg en besked på vores telefonsvarer, der har nummer 6466 1649.Du kan også finde os på Facebook og på Instagram.Vært: Jesper Rabes Laursen

Planteværn
Planteværn E39 - Glædelig jul og godt nytår, et tilbageblik på sæsonen og job nyt med Jesper Kystgaard

Planteværn

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 22, 2021 14:26


Vi ønsker jer alle en glædelig jul og godt nytår og det gør vi med et lille tilbageblik på sæsonen 2021 og tager lidt hul på 2022. Samtidig er der lidt job nyt i podcasten også.

Mediespanarna
516. Tvång, påbud eller rekommendationer?

Mediespanarna

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2021 50:41


Statsvetaren Olof Petersson sågar Kungliga Vetenskapsakademiens kritiska rapport om den svenska coronahanteringen. Det föranleder Jesper och Erik att diskutera regler, infrastruktur och kommunikation som medel för att åstadkomma önskade effekter.

Two In The Queue
Klaus : A Very Merry Movie Club Christmas

Two In The Queue

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 20, 2021 46:44


Jeff & Donald watch Klaus, "A simple act of kindness always sparks another, even in a frozen, faraway place. When Smeerensburg's new postman, Jesper, befriends toymaker Klaus, their gifts melt an age-old feud and deliver a sleigh full of holiday traditions." Find out what they thought of this Netflix original that re imagines the origins of Santa. Interact with the show on Discord: discord.gg/e7724unQPs Follow us on Twitter: @coyknutspodcast

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi
Avsnitt 332 - "Legospel genom tiderna!"

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 19, 2021 39:01


Medverkande denna gång är: Fredrik, Jesper och Danny.Denna gång så blir det samtal om alla de Lego spel som har släppts under årens gång. Vilka Legospel var de första vi kommer ihåg att vi spelat, vad var bra och vilka spel var mindre bra? Hur har utvecklingen varit av spelen och vilka kända spel skulle vi vilja se gjorda som ett legospel. Detta och mycket mer gött i dagens avsnitt. God fortsättning!Fortsatt trevlig jul så höres vi snart igen!Hoppa gärna med i vår Discord, där vi har omröstningar på olika ämnen och diskussioner om allt nördigt. Låter det intressant, ja tryck här i så fall.★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Sand till guld
#100 AVSNITT 100! Lycka, misslyckanden, och nya mål!

Sand till guld

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 18, 2021 49:19


Vi har ett chill ryggdunkar-avsnitt om hur livet och portföljen har utvecklat sig sedan vi startade podden. Vårt partiella misslyckande att vara transparent i siffror, våra framgångar i karriär och portföljutveckling. Hur har Jespers byggt sin kometkarriär? Varför har Toms valt anställning istället för att driva företag och varför säger inte Pelle hur många bitcoin han har? Lyssna och njut! Vi gillar dig! Gillar du oss? Ge oss en recension där du lyssnar på podcasts eller berätta om vår podcast för en kompis! Har du en kommentar eller fråga till oss? Kontakta oss på epost sandtillguld@gmail.com eller twitter @sandtillguld Vilka är vi? Jesper är politikern och företagaren som bor på Åland.  Tom är IT-chefen och kreatören från Uppsala.  Pelle är investeraren och terapeuten som bor i Nord-Norge.  Frånskrivning/Disclaimer: Vi är inte professionella investerare och ger inga finansiella råd. Så ta inget vi säger på allvar. Bara Jesper är allvarlig, för han är politiker, så han måste. Bitcoin to the moon! #Thiscontentisforentertainmentpuposesonlydonottakethisforinvestmentadvice.  

Madridista.dk Podcast
Real Madrid buldrer videre i LaLiga; Vinícius' kontrakt; LaLiga + Priser; En fransk legende

Madridista.dk Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 17, 2021 61:34


Rent bord i Tourmalet efter en sikker sejr i El Derbi. Der er masser af positive ting at snakke om og Daniel har denne gang inviteret Malthe og Jesper ind til en snak om Real Madrid og den komfortable føring i LaLiga. Vi skal naturligvis også vende CL-lodtrækningen…………eller CL-lodtrækningerne, om man vil. Herudover kan I glæde jer til en snak om defensiven, inklusive Thibaut Courtois, samt Vinícius og Jovic. Det hele krydres med quiz og Barca-watch, inden Daniel drejer på Legende-hjulet og finder en franskmand frem til os. Lyt med på din foretrukne podcast-app. Og husk, at vi sætter stor pris på anmeldelser, likes og delinger ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Hvis man kan lide, hvad man hører, kan man i øvrigt også bidrage til udviklingen af projektet via MobilePay Box. Alle beløb, store som små, motiverer og sender os et skridt videre mod en endnu bedre podcast. I kan bidrage på MobilePay Box 1630WV

BrøndbyLyd
#347 Jesper Sørensen takker af i Brøndby: Mesterskab, minder og menneskeligt rigere

BrøndbyLyd

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 60:15


Sponsoreret af Arbejdernes Landsbank, Glostrup Shoppingcenter & StoreDrenge.dk. Jesper Sørensen stopper ved årsskiftet som assistenttræner i Brøndby IF. Han skal i stedet være U/21-landstræner. Her får du en længere snak med ham om hans tid i Brøndby, mesterskabet, Miraklet i Aarhus, spillernes udvikling, æresport for Retov og meget mere. Nanna Møller Karlsen er vært og Teis Markfoged har mixet.

Lydavis for Østerbro
004 Jesper er stavnsbundet til sit hus

Lydavis for Østerbro

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 6:38


Ugentlige nyheder fra Østerbro Avis

Lydavis for Valby og Vigerslev
004 Jesper er stavnsbundet til sit hus

Lydavis for Valby og Vigerslev

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 6:38


Ugentlige nyheder fra Valby Bladet

Lydavis for Indre By og Christianshavn
004 Jesper er stavnsbundet til sit hus

Lydavis for Indre By og Christianshavn

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 6:38


Ugentlige nyheder fra City Avisen og Amager Bladet

Lydavisen for Brønshøj, Husum og Tingbjerg
004 Jesper er stavnsbundet til sit hus

Lydavisen for Brønshøj, Husum og Tingbjerg

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 6:38


Ugentlige nyheder fra Brønshøj-Husum Avis

Ugen i København - Lydavis
004 Jesper er stavnsbundet til sit hus

Ugen i København - Lydavis

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 6:38


Opsamling af ugens københavnernyheder udvalgt fra Berlingske, Information, Jyllands-Posten og Politiken.

Just idag!
Just idag 16/12: Jesper Jansson & Pablo Piñones-Arce

Just idag!

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 57:30


Just idag pratar vi med Jesper Jansson om tränarfrågan & Pablo Piñones-Arce gästar och ger oss sin syn på säsongen!

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Real Estate Market Analysis with Shaun Hildebrand of Urbanation |EP83

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2021 45:04


Shaun Leads the Team at Urbanation, Armed with a Background as an Economist and 15 ears of Experience in Residential Market Analysis. Shaun is a Thought Leader in the Residential Development Industry and his Unique Perspectives on the Market Guide Urbanation's insights, Analytics and Research Strategy   In this episode we talked about:    • Urbanation Background  • Shaun's Bio and First Steps in Real Estate  • Overview of Toronto Condo Market  • Shaun's Thoughts on Purpose-built Rental Housing  • Rent Control  • The Size of Toronto Condo Market  • The Outlook on How Immigration Will Impact the Real Estate  • Inflation and Asset Growth  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned  • Book or Podcast   Useful links: https://urbanation.ca Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jennifer Gallan. You're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My guest today is Shawn Hildebrand. Sean is the president of urban nation, Inc.   For those that don't know, urban nation was founded in 1981 by Eve Lewis, an industry leader and visionary. That's an emerging market opportunity for high rise condominiums in Toronto at a time when they were considered a niche product, how's it going? I'm doing great, Sean. We we're just chatting a little bit before the podcast and wanted to have you on for a little while for those that don't know urban nation. Maybe you could give a little bit of a background as to what you guys do and kind of how that company has evolved over the years with your involvement.   Shaun (1m 7s): Sure. Yeah. So as you mentioned, Urbanation was founded basically 40 years ago and began actually from Eve Louis's graduate thesis at the time. So condos were sort of a new product in the housing market in Toronto, and, you know, she studied the market, collected all the data and realized that there was a business at that could be formulated out of this research. And over the years, Urbanation continued to collect on a quarterly basis, new condominium apartment market activity by serving directly the developers that were active in the market, putting out our quarterly condo market survey publication.   And eventually over time, as, as technology evolves, moving the data and reporting into an online format. I joined the company almost nine years ago in early 2013. So at that point we were, we were just sort of really launching the full database. So that was kind of my first initiative as I, as I began to take over leadership in the company. And over the years, we've, we've continued to expand that database and the technology behind it.   We've also sort of branched out our research into more than just condominiums, but now tracking what's happening in the purpose-built rental markets. That's been a big focal point for the company over the last number of years is tracking all of the new rentals that are coming into the market, surveying them in the same sort of way that you would survey a new condo project by going directly to the building owner or property manager and collecting data such as vacancy rates and rents and, and producing a separate quarterly reports in conjunction to our previous reporting that was being done on the secondary condo rental market.   So individual condo investors, which has been sort of the biggest supplier of new rentals in Toronto for a number of years, but now we're starting to see, you know, traditional rental development happening. So it's, it's really sort of allowing us to have a more holistic lens of what's happening across real estate development. We've also expanded into tracking the land sale market as well. So through, through research that we do leveraging our relationship with CareNet and using land registry, we track all of the land acquisitions that are occurring.   So again, allows us to, to further expand our reach into the real estate market research area and, and track projects from, from a very early stage. So we, we offer this information for a subscription module. So our, our, our subscribers are very diverse. They include obviously all of the top developers in the region, but also financial institutions, private equity, other types of lenders and suppliers, government organizations, appraisers brokers, and, you know, what, what really drew me to Urbanation when I joined the company, was that it was, it was more than just a data, right?   So previously before I joined the company, I was working as the lead analyst at Canada mortgage housing corporation. And my job was to forecast the Toronto housing markets and provide a market intelligence to senior government officials. And I leveraged Urbanation to a great degree and trying to really try to figure out what was happening in the condo market at the time. This is sort of in the, in the mid to early two thousands. And in the later two thousands, there was a big focus on whether or not we were, we were over supplying the market with, with condos and having ordination was an invaluable resource to be able to really dig into the data and understand what was happening.   And, you know, w what drew me to company was that, again, it was more than just, you know, supplying the industry with levers. It was, it was really kind of putting meaning behind that, that, that, that, that research, and to be able to analyze the data and provide market intelligence that provides guidance and insights as to what's actually going on, you know, across the market. So that's something that we continue to expand. You know, we, we, when we, when we, when we enter into a new area of research, it's not just about supplying the data and the stats it's, you know, what's actually behind these numbers, what's driving them.   And from that, we've, we've really started to evolve our advisory practice. So we, we, we produce custom market feasibility reports for individual sites that developers are looking to bring to market. And over the years that that's become a very large part of our business as well. So we're continuing to expand on all fronts. We're looking into new markets in terms of our geographic expansion. We've been extremely active in sort of the tertiary markets that surrounded GTA within Ontario and very meaningfully within Ottawa on what's been a big part of our expansion recently, as we've been doing a lot of market work in that area and collecting data on every new rental developments.   And we've pumped a project that's active in the market there.   Jesse (6m 27s): Yeah. Fair enough. On the point of CMHC for those that don't know, I guess the equivalent for the states would be a Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, just kind of an institutional crown corporation, is that I think that's correct. In terms of just on that note, was your background always in real estate? Was it always kind of in the economics of real estate world, or did you come at it from a different angle?   Shaun (6m 51s): Well, I went to school to study economics, both undergraduate and graduate degrees. And when I was doing my master's, you know, I found it to be very theoretical as a lot of graduate programs are. And, you know, I had a hard time really understanding what I was, what I was being taught and, and trying to think about it in practical terms. And, you know, at the time there weren't any, at least within my program, real estate economics classes, but I was really interested in the housing market, which was, which was kind of starting to take off at that point in time.   And I felt that when I applied the economic concepts that I was being taught to, to real estate, it all kind of started to make sense because, you know, all of the, the sort of macro economic theories could be put into practice when you're understanding what's happening in the housing market. And eventually I did my, my, my graduate thesis on the housing market. And from there really started to focus my, my, my career aspirations in, in real estate economics.   And initially I was, I was working in Ottawa for the bank of Canada and the federal government for a little bit of time, and then eventually moved to private consulting in Toronto, and then to see an HC. And then now over the past homeless nine years with termination.   Jesse (8m 16s): Yeah, it's interesting. We've had people on the show before and I call it the Paul Samuelson ization of economics, where you start getting more mathematical and more statistical where you're kind of turning out economy nutritions rather than, than policy a policy makers are employees at companies. I'm curious, you've got a great graph or kind of timeline for anybody that's interested. You can go to urban nation.ca where it basically from the inception of the company to today. So, you know, in 1981 or urban nation launches to today, the global pandemic, but on the way you see such a, such an interesting story of, of condo sales and development in Toronto, for those that don't understand, or, or those that aren't aware of the condo market in Toronto or, or Ontario for that matter, how would you describe it to somebody, you know, looking in from say, another state or another country where their world is housing and purpose-built and condos are kind of a, you know, a smaller piece of, of the market.   Whereas for us, it's, it's all we know in, in large part.   Shaun (9m 24s): Yeah, very, very much. So Toronto is quite unique in the context of north America, where the bulk of, of high-rise development here locally happens within the condo sector, as opposed to the purpose built rental market. In fact, as of the third quarter, we had six times as many condoms, either construction as we did rental apartments, which is usually the inverse when you go to another large market in United States. So the condo market has worked very well in Toronto through, through pre-sales and investment activity.   So the typical course is that a, any project will launch offer their units through the broker channel who typically access investor purchasers, who, who buy very quickly and early on. And that helps fund the construction to be able to proceed with the development and investors have been extremely active in the Toronto market over the last 20 years and continue to be so in today's market, typically we'll sell 20 to 25,000 new condo units.   And then we're going to get in here this year will probably be somewhere around 27, 20 8,000. So it's going to be probably the second highest year on record behind 2017 for new condo sales. And, you know, it's, it's, it's one where we're seeing the market mature. So where as in the past condo development in pre-sale activity was very much focused within the central core of the city. It is now expanding out geographically across the region.   So the greater Toronto area includes the city of Toronto and the sofa in the suburbs that surround it. And for the first time this year, we're actually seeing more new condo sales happening in what we call a nine oh five region of the GTA, the suburban areas of the GTA, then actually within the city proper. And I think this really speaks to the affordability and, and, and, and, and sort of the history of the call, the market and why it's caught fire in that. You know, we, we don't build very many single family homes anymore in the GTA for a number of reasons, which we could probably have a whole podcast on its own, but basically condos are the dominant form of new housing developments in the region.   And as this has happened, single family housing has become scarce even more so during the pandemic, as a lot of buyers look for more space, backyards, larger properties, they weren't commuting as much. So they felt more comfortable buying my larger homes outside of, outside of the core. And the price for single family housing was just skyrocket. And this is something that's unique to Toronto. It's obviously happening across Canada and a lot of markets in the U S as well, but it's created an abnormal divergence between price appreciation and the low rise market and price appreciation in the high rise market.   And it's created this very large gap in pricing between a house and an apartment. One that is, is very, very abnormal. So if you look at the average price of a house right now, it's $1.5 million in the GTA, look at the average price of a condo it's about $700,000 or so. So that, that gap over around 800 grand has never been as large as, as it is right now. And in fact, it's increased by about 50% since the pandemic. So affordability has become an even bigger issue after the pandemic.   And a lot of the trends that I would say that they were seeing pre pandemic have only just accelerated as a result of COVID-19. So, you know, the condo market was harder initially because, you know, people were adverse to buying high rise units located in the core because of, you know, issues around the pandemic. And in the fact that a lot of businesses were closed downtown, you didn't necessarily need to be downtown. And there was probably some health concerns as well with, you know, being a very densely populated areas, but the kind of market has staged and remarkable turnaround.   And now you're starting to see, you know, double digit inflation once again, but that gap still persists. And I think it's one of those things that continues to drive demand for condos, whether they be downtown or whether they be in the suburban markets. And it's been, it's been fascinating to see, you know, how quickly a condo project can pre-sell, whether it's, you know, located at center ice downtown, or whether it's located in a suburb, you know, a hundred kilometers from, from, from the city core in almost every case, the project will sell out extremely quickly and you'll still get quite a lot of investor purchasers, even if the, the development isn't located downtown.   So I think this speaks to how the market has evolved over time and has continued to consistently produce sales volumes that, you know, are meeting or exceeding 20,000 units a year, which is, which is remarkable for us. But, you know, w in the context of the overall housing market, probably not enough to satisfy, you know, population growth is coming into the region.   Jesse (14m 32s): So in terms of the, the market itself, you, you mentioned that we're starting to build more purpose-built purpose-built apartment buildings, and you mentioned Ottawa as you know, one of those areas. I'm curious to get your thoughts. I, I talk with a lot of, a lot of individuals in our industry that are older than I, that have had lived through the eighties and nineties. And we had on the podcast, Richard Epstein, who is a professor of law at NYU. And we did a podcast on the history of rent control and rent stabilization in New York.   And I'm curious if you think that that had an effect on development of purpose-built over the last 20, 30, even 40 years in Ontario, or a few things, there was another, another factor that basically resulted in an over not overdevelopment, but leaning towards condos, as opposed to purpose-built because for those that don't know, the, the stock of purpose-built up until recently has been pretty old stock. And I was always curious if, if it was an actual thing with policy, or if it was more of a cultural thing of, of owning, owning a property rather than renting,   Shaun (15m 41s): I think it's a, it's a combination of things like rent control introduced in the seventies and evolved over time has, has certainly played a role. So capping the amount of increase that can be passed off to a tenant, obviously with strict revenue growth for, for that asset class and makes it economically less attractive to develop new as a result. So that that's, that's one factor, I think for sure, but I think, you know, part of it is the fact that, you know, during, during the mid mid two thousands, I'd say there was a big push from the government to put renters into the home ownership market, right?   This was a way of kind of reviving the economy, reviving the housing market after, you know, a pretty significant slope during the very most of the 1990s. And you saw, you know, things like 40 year amortizations get introduced to 0% down mortgages cash back at closing. I think it was, it was almost, you know, you're, you're almost a fool to, to rent at the time because it was, it was so much easier to get into the housing market and to arrest pepper, to buy than it is than it was to rent. So for a period of time, you saw this massive outflow of, of renters from the existing rental stock into the home ownership market.   And on an annual basis, we were actually losing renters as a population because we were adding so many of you to the ownership market and the home ownership rate is wrong, or just skyrocketed from between, you know, 2001 up until around 2011, 2016. And, you know, there wasn't really command to be building new rental apartments because the demand was all on the ownership side. And that's where kind of condominiums started to really take off because this was around the same time.   And since then the dynamics that started to change somewhat. So as, as, as the housing market has entered into the, you know, the later stages of this purchase cycle and, and housing has become so expensive, it's, it's had a huge impact on affordability. And as a result, homeownership rates have actually started to decline a little, and you're starting to see most of the household growth occurring within Toronto, actually happening within the rental space.   And this has pushed rents up, or at least a decrease in that dynamic to a level that started to make better economic sense to build than to invest in, you know, existing low cap rate buildings that were rent controlled. So, you know, starting, I would say around 20 15, 20 16, we started to notice that, you know, there were requests for market studies that were coming across our desks were starting to shift from condo to purpose-built rental, and you started to get a lot more institutional interests kind of coming into the marketplace.   So developers and, and investment partners looking at Toronto from a longer-term lens than they have in the past. So, you know, it was, it was pretty much entirely common development, presale the units getting move on to the next project. Whereas now it's, you know, how can we, how can we invest into the markets for the longterm and recognize that the population is expanding, we're going to in a, in a, in a, in a rental market that has structurally low vacancy rates at an average, you know, around a 2% for the last 10 to 20 years, we know that the population is going to continue to expand.   We know that whole ownership affordability is going to continue to be restricted for first time buyers. So how do we plan ahead for the future? And so, you know, a lot of the development proposals that are actually coming into the markets, they are for traditional purpose built rental, and we're, we're at a stage now where I think according to our latest report, we had about a hundred thousand units in the proposed pipeline that were expected to be developed as traditional rentals. And I'd say there's probably at least another 50,000 above that, that we've been looking at, haven't actually been officially submitted yet.   So we're building up the supply pipeline for the future. I think the next challenge is actually getting it through the development cycle because, you know, less than 20,000 units are actually in the pipeline and approved for development. So it's, you know, it's, it's, it's tough, you know, the, with, with COVID, you know, the rental market was hit pretty hard, particularly downtown and rents are only starting to come back now in our latest report, we've gotten that rents were up on a year, over year basis for the first time, since the pandemic in the third quarter, but there's still about four or 5% below what those pre COVID highs were.   So I think there's been a lot of uncertainty about, you know, when the market's going to come back, you know, what sort of a rent growth projection should, should we be incorporating into our performance? And, you know, has the outlook changed at all? Or is it even looking stronger because of increased immigration targets? And what's happened to housing prices since COVID-19, so it be interesting, it's interesting times, and, you know, th the development applications that are coming in or are starting to be, you know, more geographically dispersed.   So, you know, traditionally it only really made sense to build rental downtown because you could get $4 a square foot plus rents. But now one of the, one of the trends that we've seen since COVID-19 was that the suburban areas of the GTA were pretty much untouched in terms of the rental markets. And these are low supply markets that had, you know, very little existing purpose-built rental stock to begin with. They were entirely relying on, on Palmdale stock for rentals, which there wasn't that much out as well, because investors were mostly focused downtown then in the suburbs.   And then you saw this infusion of demand as the population began to sort of spread itself out around the region. And rents actually are, you know, higher today than where they were pre COVID vacancy rates are still stuck at around one to 2%. And, and I think developers are starting to notice this and, and, and a lot of development slated for master plan communities around existing shopping centers located on the group of fringe. And, and then I don't buy. And, you know, it's not just a matter of, you know, getting a site and throwing up a tower.   It's, you know, how do we, how do we make a complete community here? How do we make it mixed use near transit, integrated with retail office, other commercial components that can make a new place, a new living environment for, for renters. And it'll be fascinating to see how this evolves over the next 10 to 20 years, because you know, the, the old model of, of renting in Toronto, it's going to dramatically change as we move through the next couple of decades.   Jesse (22m 22s): I got to get your thoughts on the 2018 bill. That was a, I believe it was 2018 bill that was basically buildings built after 2018 were exempt for the most part, I believe from, from rent control, built buildings built prior to that, you know, the stabilization we have in our various provinces, at least for Ontario would stay status quo. Do you think that had a, had a, an effect on, on the, you know, this push to more purpose-built developments?   Shaun (22m 53s): I think so, you know, the, the data did show that after, after November, 2018, we did, we did begin to see a greater inflow of development applications come in for rental. They were building before that, but we did see that pace of, of, of, of, of, of submissions actually accelerate. But I, I think there's, there's probably some level of skepticism w within the development industry, that this policy could change with the change of government, right.   Quite, quite easily, and quick, quickly, particularly in this environment where we're housing it is is, is forefront on political issues. And, you know, if another government takes over the province, you know, we could see that change fast. So I think, I think, I think developers realize that, you know, it could be forced to, to, to, to have rent control units in the builds. And, you know, for the most part, for, for those that we do work with, they don't typically have aggressive rent, growth assumptions.   Like they need to be able to make these numbers work with conservative growth estimates. So they're, they're looking at rents today. They're, you know, they're factoring in a rebound pre COVID numbers in the short term, which is like, which is, I think, a realistic, but also looking at, you know, a historical rate of rent projection that is consistent with what we've been seeing over the last 10 to 15 years, which is, you know, I think we're probably carrying around if we're going to have 4%, which is, which is, I think a conservative given the fact that it won't be long before we're back to, you know, 2% or less vacancy rates across the city.   And our latest data shows that we're, we're pretty much on our way there.   Jesse (24m 42s): So I guess one of the, one of the benefits with the new, I mean, the newer build, even if the policy did reverse, like you're saying whether it's two or 3%, maybe 4% rental growth projections, I think it's just as a in competition or with the backdrop of you can buy an existing apartment building. And it's really the issue. There is the mark to market of rents where you have historically low rents. I'm curious on your thoughts. You know what I mean? These things are completely interwoven in our city, but the, the shadow market or the condo market, there's different names for it, where that these condo owners rent out their space.   And it's kind of, you know, typically mom and pop, I have a couple of condos I rent out and it's kind of taking the place of the apartment buildings. Purpose-built how big of a market is that, you know, like what, from, from your data, w what size of the market would you say that that encapsulates?   Shaun (25m 40s): So what 40% of condos in Toronto are used as, as rental properties, so that that's grown over the years. I think it was 20 to 25%, maybe, maybe 10 to 15 years ago. So it, it tends to rise, but it's, it's rising at a slower pace than it has in the past. It seems like we're kind of reaching a, an equilibrium of around 40%. And I think, you know, it's, it's been, it's been easy for investors to buy units and hold onto them because the economics of doing so and so favorable, right?   You could buy a unit three construction, and you don't have to close on it for four or five years. So you have that timeframe for rents to inflate, to a level that will make the unit cashflow positive. And historically that's always worked out very well. In fact, we did a study on all of the condo units in the GTA at rich completion in 2020. And we looked at what their closing price was. We looked at the rents that they were able to at closing, and we also teamed up with land registry to understand what their mortgage costs were.   So we were able to actually calculate on a unit by unit basis, what, what cash flow actually realized was, and what we found was that most investors still were cash flow positive or cashflow neutral, though. Two thirds of them are, and less than 40% were, were at cashflow negative position. And really it was only investors that were comfortable negative or only those that had remortgaged the unit at closing. So if you closed on the unit at the, at the secure pre-sale price from several years ago, and you also were able to take advantage of interest rates that were on historical lows.   I mean, it was, it was so easy to, to, to just get it out, even at right levels that were somewhat depressed last year, but this all kind of looks backwards at the fact that, you know, investors were closing on units that were bought before the big jump up the condo crisis. So when we looked at the average price per square foot for units that closed in 2020, it was less than $700. So less than $700 a square foot, the average new condo price in the GTA right now is $1,200 a square foot.   And for the units that are going to be closing in, let's say, 20, 24, 20 25, they're going to be closing at a presale price of around $1,300 a square foot. So I was bullish as the next guy on the rental market. I think we'll, we'll, we'll see good rent inflation in the next few years, but that's going to require about 75% growth in rents from where they are right now for investors to continue to be cashflow neutral or cashflow positive in, in, you know, four years time, let's say.   So I think the shadow market is going to change. It may not be as, as, as, as strong as it's been in the past because of the big jump in prices. And the fact that this is going to make it tougher for an investor to hold on to their units. And, you know, investors are generally okay with being cashflow negative so long as the unit continues to appreciate. So if we get into a situation where, you know, the, the cashflow is isn't there, and, you know, the, the price of the unit is appreciating perhaps slowly, there's going to be less of an incentive to hold onto the unit for, for, for as long as they have historically.   So I think this represents an opportunity for the primary market to step up, right? Like you're, you're not going to have as much competition with the secondary market because of the fact that they're going to have to be pushing rents to $6 a square foot by 2025, if they're going to have any chance of making these units cashflow positive and probably higher than that, if we're factoring in some increases in interest rates. So the other thing is that the shadow market, the secondary condo rental market tends to be heavily skewed towards small units, right?   So you've got a small one bedroom units, some studios that are favorable amongst investors because they have a lowest price tag. And historically they're able to generate the greatest rental yields, but the demographics of renters are much more diverse than just having a 500 square foot unit. And this is where purpose-built rental development helps to fill a void. You see that, that, that purpose-built rental projects typically have a larger average suite size and it called the rental window, usually about a hundred, hundred square feet larger, much more, much, much more diverse in terms of its unit mix, some more tubings suites, for instance, that could accommodate, you know, couples, small families, roommate situations, it's, you know, gas sizers.   We're seeing quite a, quite a few of those gravitating towards the rental market. So liquidating the primary residence and using that to help fund retirement and, and actually downsizing into a rental as opposed to purchasing a similar sized condo unit, which would be well over a million dollars in today's marketplace. So I think, you know, purposeful rental is, is, is, is evolving the apartment market in general by, you know, looking more towards the future demographic trends and also from a product standpoint, right?   There's, you know, when you, when you, when you, when you build a building and you're holding it, you have to kind of resell it over time, right. To the next tenant that's been moved in. So there's much more attention that gets paid to the amenities spaces, the Walgreens, the experience of living in the building resident services. So I think you're, you're, you're seeing some in a lot of cases, higher quality buildings coming in. And I know that the developers that are active in today's space are looking quite closely to what's been happening in the us, right?   Like the U S is much more advanced than we are in building new multi-family housing. So, you know, understanding what's worked and what hassles and bringing in professional management and into those new buildings, it's, it's been interesting to see, and it's, I think it's a learning exercise. And even within, you know, a small number of new rentals that are being built, you know, I I'm seeing that product evolve from where it was even just a few years ago.   Jesse (31m 50s): Yeah. I think that's a positive thing. And even on the consumer level or the, you know, the renter, if there's that more certainty that you're not going to get evicted, or that there's a certainty of, of tenancy, as opposed to having a condo where you can be in a precarious situation, I want to switch gears to some of the supply aspects. You mentioned immigration, obviously COVID has had an impact on, on the whole world, Canada, generally speaking, we're pro-immigration country countries built by immigrants in terms of the effect that you think that we'll have in the next few years, given the numbers, being slightly adjusted to where they were a few years ago, but basically your outlook on how immigration will impact real estate.   And if you think that we are, we are, we have enough supply because I know you mentioned 20, 21 would be a record year for condo units, I believe, but, but is there still a supply constraint given the fact that we could have, you know, more population growth?   Shaun (32m 54s): Yeah, for sure. So if you look at the last 12 months for permanent immigrants admissions into Toronto, then it's written back about a hundred thousand, but for the last fall, last of September, 2021. So a lot of this is the conversion of non permanent residents into permanent residence. So a lot of them may already be living here, but the government seems to be very, very focused on continuing to raise those integration targets over the next few years, and as travel returns to more normal levels, you'll actually see that begin to materialize into actual population growth.   So I think that's partly important to understand Toronto typically receives about 35% of all the immigrants that come to a public country. And unfortunately we're not building a pace that's going to be able to satisfy that level of demographic demand. So we've been pretty much stuck at building at a pace of under 40,000 housing units a year for the GTA for the past 20 years.   Housing construction generally across the province has risen in, in, in the last number of months. So it is responding to demand and anticipating future demand, but it's been that growth has been entirely focused outside of the GTA. So it's happening in less supply constrained markets within the province. And in fact, for the first time in a long time, there's more housing being built outside of Toronto in other parts of the province than there is within Toronto. So I think, you know, this is, this is, this is a policy problem that you're introducing higher immigration targets, but you're not necessarily looking towards housing supply to, to accommodate that growth.   And inevitably what happens is that the new immigrants get, get shut out of the Toronto housing market because there just simply isn't any supply. And they begin to move into areas where perhaps there is more supply and that may not be economically the right thing to do because you know, a lot of the immigrant new immigrate immigrants are, are working in, in, in, in, in economic hubs, which are mostly located in central areas of Toronto. So, you know, there's more commuting and that sort of thing that goes on.   So I think, you know, more certainly needs to be done. W we will see a lot of condo completions in 20 20, 22. And you can look at this through, you know, the historical relationship between presale launch launches. And then there's normally a five-year lag between when they actually get delivered a record year in 2017 for launches. So it stands to reason that next year there's going to be a pretty big year for, for condo occupancies. Most of those will be offered for rent still, I believe. So. I think you're going to have, you know, a little bit of an increase in supply to meet that additional demand, but by no means, will we be building a pace that's going to satisfy the, the level of population growth that's going to be coming into the market in the next few years.   So, unfortunately, there's, there's really, isn't much that can be done about this in the interim, because all of the supply that's going to be coming to market, I would say over the next seven years has already been spoken for, we already know how many units are under construction. We already know how many units are approved for development. So we know generally how much supply is going to be coming in, you know, within the next five, seven years. And it simply isn't going to be enough. And if you look at kind of how the dynamics are going to be shifting between ownership and renting, there's going to be an even larger deficit of rental units.   Then we then we've seen in the past. So it won't be long before we're, we're back to 1% vacancy rates and rents that are inflating much, much higher than, than, than, than historical norms. You know, it just, in the first quarter of this year, we were recording vacancy rates in downtown Toronto at 9%, six months later, they were below 4% and another six months they'll probably be below 2%. And this is without immigration, right? This is, this is, this is happening, you know, before that big surge in population happens.   So, you know, what it's going to look like in the next few years is, you know, much of what we were seeing pre COVID, but, you know, amplify to a degree.   Jesse (37m 10s): So we asked four questions at the end of the show with all the guests, but before we get there, I wanted to kind of, you talked a little bit about it, but a prognosticate a little bit about the next few years for development, you know, you touched on rental rental growth. I can assume I can infer from that, that as we have compression of vacancy rates, that rents will go up. Do you see a, a point where, you know, we've seen, at least in, in, in our brokerage, we've seen record prices, record cap rates.   You know, I've said for the last 10 years, interest rates can't get any lower and they continue to get lower. Where do you see if at all that we come up to a wall when it comes to whether it's asset inflation or rental growth?   Shaun (37m 55s): Well, for per housing crisis, I think you're going to see some resistance next year as is inflation numbers. And the communication coming from the central bank made it quite clear that interest going to start to revise it soft point probably early next year. And you know, the market's pricing in at least four moves by Canada. So, you know, given where housing prices are, that's going to have an impact on affordability, for sure. I mean, that's the been one of the biggest drivers of, of the asset inflation that we've been seeing, it's the record, low interest rates. And as those start to normalize, you begin to see some headwinds in terms of that growth.   So whether that happens, you know, the first half of the second half or the early 20, 23, it's hard know because you know what impact that's having on the broader economy. But certainly I think, you know, the narrative is going to shift from one where we're seeing housing prices grow by 20 to 30% to one where they're starting to at least level out, but usually there's, there's trade off there, right? As you see big increases in housing prices inflation, it tends to lead to higher rates of rent inflation.   And we haven't seen it yet, but I think we will see it. But to your point, you know, when you're looking at rental growth in rent inflation, you're constrained by incomes, right? Like there's only so much that a you can afford. And yes, we're seeing higher income, new immigrants coming into the GTA that can afford higher rents. But, you know, even though there's going to be some, some resistance levels, if you look at the average price of a new purpose built rental in the, in the GTA, it's about $2,400 a month. So the average new new immigrant coming in, you know, is, is probably earning something that, that, that would make that kind of on the fringe of being affordable.   But if you relate it to the average ownership costs for a condo, for instance, it's a thousand dollars a month cheaper. So it is really the de facto way of introducing a affordable housing supply in the GTA that, that is geared to the market. So at a certain point, though, you know, you will, you will start to see some resistance and we actually did begin to see that pre COVID. So once rest started to rise to 25, 20 $600 a month, you began to see renters pull back a little bit and, and, and, and the demand didn't dissipate, it just started to move into less expensive markets.   So I think that that's something that will, that will reemerge, like right now, the hottest segment of the market for rental growth is the downtown market because it's in that recovery phase. But once it starts to exceed those preached pre pandemic levels, you'll probably begin to see, you know, renters look for more affordable pockets of the market, and that will help to manage, I suppose, the, the continued growth that we're expecting.   Jesse (40m 42s): Fair enough. All right, Sean, we have four questions if you're ready to go all LABA, Matt. Yeah. All right. Something, you know, now in your career, whether business or in the real estate industry, you wish you knew when you first started out   Shaun (40m 57s): Something that I know now, geez, I guess it's, you know, the market never works the way that you're going to expect it to work. You know, you can, you can have the best economic model, but you know, there there's, there's, there's so much human emotion in real estate, in psychological elements that, you know, sometimes I think, you know, we'd be better equipped to be a psychologist and an economist when trying to evaluate the market outlook.   So learning to, to understand that a forecast is, is more than opinion and, and, and, you know, it's subject to a lot of variability. I think every economist in marketing analyst there has had to learn over the last several years   Jesse (41m 47s): In terms of mentorship, somebody that's just breaking into or thinking about breaking into our industry, what would you say to that person   Shaun (41m 57s): Learn as much as you possibly can, you know, a firm such as organation is great at, at learning the industry from the ground up. So understanding the data, gaining, getting exposed to, you know, the development industry across the board, I think is incredibly valuable. So, you know, you know, we're working for a large organization is, is great, or a boutique organization such as organization as well, but being exposed to understanding how the market works and learning the data, learning how to source information and how the, the market functions practically I think is probably a great starting point   Jesse (42m 36s): Booker podcasts you could recommend to listeners   Shaun (42m 41s): Or podcast. Geez, I'm not big on both. To be honest, I, I, I, I read the news. Like I slipped a little, little, little time that I, I try to consume media through, through the newspaper. So I'm probably one of the few people that actually still get a printed global mail delivered to me every morning. And that's really all the time I have to spend on, on, on consuming media is, is when I sit down and actually read through the paper, you know, I think I was, I was starting to get into podcasts a little bit more before the pandemic, while I was commuting into work, but not having that time to sit down and listen to podcasts anymore is, you know, reverted back to traditional media and said, okay,   Jesse (43m 30s): All right. And for those that aren't, aren't watching this and listening, Sean, you look like you're, you're 35. So that's, that's awesome that you're still getting the, the paper. Last question, you know, this is the toughie first car make and model   Shaun (43m 44s): My first car. That was my own, that, that wasn't provided to me by my parents was a Chevrolet cavalier.   Jesse (43m 54s): I was very close. That was the Sunfire. That's great. That's great too. We've had, we've had some interesting cars on the show over the last 80 episodes. That's awesome. Shine. I really appreciate you taking the time for those that want to learn a bit more about urban nation or, you know, reach out to you. What's the best, best approach   Shaun (44m 13s): You can visit our website. urbanation.ca. We have a lot of information there. You can send an inquiry into the, the general line in Cote urbanation.ca or myself, Shawn S H a U n@urbanation.ca. Happy to answer any questions that may come up,   Jesse (44m 29s): I guess today has been Shawn Hildebrand. Sean, thanks for being part of working capital. Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one take care.

Dylan and Tommy Show

Tis the season for parkas, fishing, and sending letters to the big guy up north in Smeerensburg! In this fresh take on the origins of Christmas we meet Jesper, a down-on-his-luck postal worker begrudgingly assigned to the coldest and most isolated town in Northern Europe. What happens when you mix a motivated postman, an unresolved and centuries old feud, illiterate children, and an old hermit with a barn full of toys? Find out in our review of the heartwarming Netflix original, Klaus.

Radio Tour
Episode 30: Frankrig-tema med Jesper Worre

Radio Tour

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2021 65:37


I dagens afsnit af Radio Tour er Jesper Worre på besøg hos Bay, Piil og Holm for at tale om fransk cykling, og undervejs får de fire herrer Kim Andersen med på telefon.

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi
Avsnitt 331 - "Fler svenska lokaliseringar åt folket!"

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 12, 2021 89:53


Medverkande denna gång är: Fredrik, Danny, Mattias och Jesper.Veckans avsnitt går i spelens tecken! Allt från Halo Infinite, Chorus, Deathloop, Tandem: A Tale of Shadows, The Matrix Awakens står under luppen. Sedan går även Jesper in på Edgar Wright filmen Last Night in Soho. Framförallt går vi in på The Game Awards 2021, vad som stod ut, vad vi gillade och vad vi tyckte om evenemanget i sin helhet. Detta och mycket mer i ett späckat och lite småjuligt avsnitt!Hoppa gärna med i vår Discord, där vi har omröstningar på olika ämnen och diskussioner om allt nördigt. Låter det intressant, ja tryck här i så fall.★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Let's Go Devils Podcast
Bratt's Desire To Be A Leader Is Producing Results [WOO REPORT EP139]

Let's Go Devils Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 9, 2021 14:38


https://www.LetsGoDevils.com#NJDevils #NHL #LetsGoDevils #LGD #Devils #NewJersey #NCAA #AHL

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Raising Private Capital: Build Your Real Estate Empire Using Other People's Money with Matt Faircloth | EP82

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 9, 2021 44:02


Founder and CEO of DeRosa Group Matt is a Regular Contributor and Podcast Guest on Bigger Pockets.com, Has an Active YouTube Channel Dedicated to Educating Investors, and the Author of the Amazon Best Seller, Raising Private Capital, how to Build your Real Estate Empire with Other People's Money In this episode we talked about:  • Matt's First Steps in Real Estate  • Scaling: the jump from 49 Units Up  • Raising Private Capital   • Advice to Individuals Who Haven't Raised Capital yet  • Matt's View on the Real Estate Market   Useful links:   https://derosagroup.com https://www.instagram.com/themattfaircloth/   Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My guests today are returning guests, Matt fare, cloth, founder, and CEO of the DeRosa group.   Matt has been a full-time investor for over 15 years. Just talked a little bit about the deal volume here over a hundred million in real estate transactions and controlling over 1000 units in multifamily mats, a regular contributor and podcast guests on biggerpockets.com has an active YouTube channel dedicated to educating investors and the author of the Amazon bestseller. Highly recommend raising private capital. How to build your real estate empire with other people's money. Matt, how's it going?   Matt (59s): Good. I'm good, Jesse. It's great being here, man. Am I, did I, did you tell me a bit at BiggerPockets conferences? This is that I'm your first repeat appearance on your podcast?   Jesse (1m 8s): No, the first repeat appearance was definitely the BR Brandon Turner. So   Matt (1m 13s): Yeah, you're right. Yeah,   Jesse (1m 15s): But you're there though. You know, you're very generous in the, the first, first few episodes. I think you were you're right on. I think that was right when you started marketing the book, but you know, I think at that point I read half of it completed it a long time ago. A great book. I thought it was, I thought it was just for us, at least it was very perfect timing, which is fine.   Matt (1m 37s): I gotta be here, man. I should get like, we should do like the SNL jacket thing, like finding it loud when there's repeat guests, you know, like we should do like the, like the special, like the number five collab or whatever it is. I'm in the number two clubs now at Brandon. So I want to, I'm glad to be back here with you, man. Thanks for that.   Jesse (1m 52s): It's great to have you, you know what, I didn't even ask before we started. Are you still, are you still in out of Jersey right now or   Matt (1m 59s): So we have an office building in Jersey, but we, we work, but my wife and I have since moved to Pennsylvania just across the bridge, across the river from New Jersey. And now we live just north of Philly in a little town called new hope, Pennsylvania.   Jesse (2m 14s): Nice, nice. And how long has this, how long have you been there now? Three years. Awesome. Cool. Is that you guys doing some deals out there or was it just more of a, a kind of a personal things to   Matt (2m 25s): We move? I, you know, Jesse, I never thought I would be the guy to live in like a, like a suburban development, you know, but you know what, man, I, I got like the whole modern family house. I got, I live in a cul-de-sac and everything like that. The kids go out and play. I know my neighbors, circuitry, Katrina, the bomb, that, that whole thing. So w my wife and I are both urbanites, you know, I've, I've lived in or around urban cores for most of my life. And now we're in the burbs man.   And I, and I love it. I don't know if I'll be in the burbs forever, but for right now with two young kids, this is kind of the, where you want to be. So, no, that's perfect. Yeah. It's been a big, big, big change for us. Well, that's great.   Jesse (3m 6s): So I guess, you know, for listeners, just to catch us up to speed, it's been a, it's been quite a while since we spoke, you know, we've had a couple of major global situations. We've probably the last few years for, you have been a pretty interesting with the book and to see how that's been going. So maybe you could catch us up to speed a little, what you've been up to the last, the last year or two.   Matt (3m 29s): Yeah, man, what's interesting is that when, at my I've been investing for 16 years full-time and what, what I've in, in the beginning part of our career, we were into single family homes. We were in a, you know, a small office complex that, you know, the one down there and Trenton, we would do a lot, a lot of mixed use buildings here and there. And we were invested in, in what a lot of beginning and newer investors would, would consider to be, you know, like the typical deal, like single family, home, small, multi, you know, those kinds of things.   And we ended up scaling up to a reasonable portfolio of those kinds of things. But then, you know, through, through just being able to prove the proof in the pudding for ourselves to show that we were able to, what we were able to do for investors at a scale out best practice as we grew. And so we did, like, we stretched up a little bit into a 10 unit apartment building. Then we stretched a little bit further and did an 18 unit. Then we special bowl further into 49 unit. Right. And that's probably about when you and I had talked, right.   Or is a 49 unit apartment building. Then we went and did 198 unit in, in North Carolina. And then we, we realized the scalability and, and the, and that once we had proven that street cred to our investor base and to ourselves and to prop and, and that we were able to take best practices. We had learned in doing the small stuff and to the larger staff that that's been, our primary focus is, is a mid to large real estate deals for, you know, mid-size multifamily.   And so what I, to answer your question, what I've been focusing on in my time doing the last couple of years, scaling out a team of people that helped me run the larger real estate stuff. And I've got an, a plus team now, th that, that run all that. And I've been spending my time leading that team and, and charging us through COVID and, you know, inflation and all that stuff, but also working on the things that we still own, right. I mean, a couple of years ago, we still owned a lot of that single family homes and duplexes and triplexes and that kind of stuff, and slowly divesting those things and, you know, taking, doing our best to care of the investors that are in those projects and giving them, giving them the best trends that we could so that we can put our focus on just on the larger deals while we still properly unwind and take care of the small stuff.   So we've really been becoming like all grows up, you know, in the last couple of years, as, as a real estate company, you really just focusing on, you know, bigger and large stuff, well, maintaining and selling the small stuff. So the last couple of years Jesse's been all about the focus, transition optimization of, of, of the optimization and of the smaller things while leading and growing into new territory for us on the larger deals.   Jesse (6m 21s): Yeah. It sounds like at that point, you're, you're dealing with scale scaling with systems in terms of the, I think it was the 49 unit probably was the last time we spoke. So that one that jumped from the 49 unit up, how was that different if it was two from the one prior to the 49? And I think that was like an 18 unit or something, right from the 1849. So was that, was that transition from the 18 to 49, different from that transition from 49 to the, to the larger stuff you guys are doing.   So   Matt (6m 52s): The 18 to 49 was probably the biggest chunk and he will here's. This is interesting. Here's why, right. So what we decided to do when we were running everything, I even wrote an article for BiggerPockets years ago. And the article said, why I will never buy a deal outside of 30 minutes away from my office. Right. I had to eat the, I literally, if I, if those words were on paper, I'd pull it up and eat them right now. Right. Literally like little hot sauce on it. Now it ethos words, because at that time it made sense for me to scale out with in-house property management.   Like these are my employees, in-house maintenance, property management interface between the tenants, office manager, bookkeeper, that kind of thing. So I had a reasonable size team. We ran, you know, like, like a north of a hundred unit portfolio with, and it ran well, and it could have, we could have scaled that up to, you know, in, in, into the mid to high hundreds, or even floated with a thousand units or whatever of in-house owned, in-house manages managed units. And when we, the 18 unit we managed in house, and so had that down at the protocol down, had the process orientation down for that, then this 49 unit shows up and that one's two hours away from the 18 unit.   And I was like, man, I wrote that article, I guess I probably, you know, I don't know, but it's in a great location, great market, you know, love the location that it's in. It's, it's just all everything added up and the numbers added up on it and everything worked. And we had proven ourselves on many other smaller deals to investors and private lenders that we get enough people lined up to get into a larger deal. So we said, you know what, let's tackle this larger project. Like, w let's give it, let's give it a bit, let's get into this. We think we can do it.   Problem is Jesse, we'd hire a third party manager to run that property. So I, and this, at the time, God blessed my wife. She's like my muse, you know, I told her we're going to scale up property management, two hours away from our home in Lancaster. And she was like, why don't you just give it a shot to run third-party management? Because if you don't like third-party management, or if they're not doing a good job, you could just fire them and bring it in house. But why don't you try using another management company? And I think that she saw that that's, that, that, that was really going to help us scale by taking a focus off management and focus on capital growth processes, you know, renovations, capital may, you know, capital improvements, those kinds of things.   And it was a huge shift in running a team, going from running a team that I managed and developed a protocol and they'll work for me. And they ran around. Yeah. Right. They're my people versus going to a team that was not my people, third-party property management. It's a major shift, but it was a game changer.   Jesse (9m 46s): So curious about that, cause we we've dealt with a third department property management and I'm sure listeners that are invested, you know, either having in-house or having third party. Was there anything specific or kind of the big things that, that were the hardest to get over with that transition, whether it's them, you know, having their systems as opposed to using your systems, was there anything major that, you know, it was, it was just really that it was a challenging one to, to kind of relinquish a little power.   Matt (10m 12s): Well, the accounting thing, you know, you figure out the accounting stuff, cause it's not like they're, they're keeping your books, you know, on the back of a napkin. Right. That's it, that's an easier transition than people think it is. They call, well, we use QuickBooks and they use that folio. How we can we get, you know, what give you, I'll give you an hour or two, you probably figure it out. You know, that's way, way easier than the real. Then the real deal stuff. It's like, well, what are the interfaces? And what are the decision-making what's the decision-making protocol? How much rent should I charge for that vacant apartment?   Right. Should I, or should I not replay, like I have a leak in the ceiling, should I patch the roof? Or should I open up the ceiling to see if there's something inside it that's causing the leak from HVHC doctor or something like that. Right. Yeah. So it's, it's the, if this, then that type of protocol, that is the biggest shift and this level of trust you have to have for the property management team and for their protocol. And just to understand that there's things that are going to happen over here and you're just not even gonna know about it, you know? And so there's a level of having the faith and trust to go a little bit more hands-off and trust that they're going to be able to implement your ideas and visions, but you still got to have your finger on them to the point where you can, you know, catch issues or be like, Hey, we've that ceiling's been leaking for the last three weeks, three months.   And the tenant keeps calling back and they're saying that their HVHC is not working, you know, or that tenants complained of bugs four times in a row. Well, maybe it's because they're not living. Maybe it's because of an issue they're causing versus something that's actually in the building. You know what I'm saying? Stuff like that, that, that you still have to have your finger on as an owner, you cannot hands off and too many owners just go like this completely. But it's like, what's the level of me letting them run their business while I still manage the asset. And that's where the concept of asset management comes in.   Jesse (12m 4s): Yeah. I was going to say, it's like the, you give up a little bit on the property management or everything, depending on what you're doing, but then your internal controls have to go up, right? You need to have those systems of, and it could be as easy as, even on a smaller scale, you know, you're spending X amount of dollars, anything over this, we need executive approval or anything related to this. We need, you know, you have a process, like you said, if then, you know what F and then have a decision tree, you know, between, between you, the property manager,   Matt (12m 31s): Except that their protocol is that, well, we don't call an owner unless we have an expensive of 500 bucks and you have to be okay with that. Like, okay, well, do I want to get calls at a lower number or whatever it is. It's about understanding the process and accepting certain things. And knowing like, this is something I could probably live with. And this is something that I needed to change protocol for. Right. That was probably one of the bigger shifts. And just knowing you don't want to, here's here, I'll give you the term because everybody uses this term now cause attraction and stuff like that, the book attraction is KPIs and determining what the KPIs are for property management, that you need to keep your finger on and stuff that you can just let them run.   And not that it doesn't matter, but it's not going to really affect the things that it's not going to go direct to bottom line. And, and if, if it gets really bad, it'll trigger a KPI, you know, and that, so what are the things on the property management side that I have to hold them accountable to? And what can I just let them run? And if it gets really squirrely, I'll see it. Yeah, yeah, sure.   Jesse (13m 33s): You know, you can control so much of the input, but it's sometimes easier to just have the output. Did we hit this? Did we hit, you know, whatever that KPI is, then you can kind of look back if, if things are, if there's an issue, something needs to be changed. Matt, how was the process of, you know, you wrote, you wrote this book, raising private capital, how did your journey with these properties going from 1849 plus, you know, you're, you're now over a thousand units, I think in terms of the raising capital aspect of your business, how did that, how did that evolve?   Matt (14m 3s): It's a, well, it's funny. The first one I talk about in raising private capital was like, literally somebody, my wife went to college with and she was, I think like we connected with them on like a column like Dan, or maybe she saw him at like an alumni event or w w w w whatever, the, whatever it was. She mentioned to this colleague of hers from college that her and I had gotten into real estate investing. And he was like real estate investing. That's interesting. You know, I've always, I've always wanted to get involved in real estate, but I've never had the time. And it's like, oh, well, you know, my husband has the time, you know, like you should, you should talk to my husband.   And so that you start there and it just something we just stumbled into. And I had to call a lawyer to say, Hey, I've got this guy wants to give me money. What should I do? And he's like, okay, slow down. Let's talk about what is this going to be a equity or debt? And my lawyer was very patient and talk me through, you know, loan agreements and whatnot. And this was, you know, 12 years ago when we were first figuring this whole thing out fast forward to, you know, taking it. Step-by-step one foot in front of the other to, again, you know, again, not to like be a systems dork again, but I guess I'm an engineer by trade.   So I just, that's just how I think in that we started to develop systems and processes around raising private capital and, you know, everything from webinars to funnels to it. Like, you know, having those that want to invest with you participate in some sort of a process to where you can understand who needs to go, where, and your system it's, that's been the journey in, in really taking us to the next level in, in, in marketing and making people aware of us, but also in, in making, you know, making sure that people, the right leads go to the right places.   And that's all been all systems and systems and processes and trial, trial, and error kind of thing.   Jesse (15m 49s): So on the, on the point of systems, I talked with a lot of investors that are at that point where they've raised capital maybe for one or two deals, asset specific, or property specific capital. They're not yet at the size, or at least they don't think they're at the size to justify, you know, a, an actual portal, a fund portal or syndication portal. You know, what point do you, do you see investors really starting to put the systems in? Is it a, is it, is it a size of deal perspective or is it a amount of investors perspective?   How do you think about that?   Matt (16m 21s): I think the most people wait too long to do it. I got talked to one guy who had like 20 million in an equity under management, and he was running it on Excel, bless for anybody, man, he's running it using Excel spreadsheet. Right. And, and, and that, and it almost like you need to go next level, man, you need to look at it. You've got to get this wacky internet machine here. You need to take a look at, you know, and so I, I find that most people probably wait too long to handle capital management investor.   And it just, it just makes your life easy. And you don't have to, like, there are softwares out there now that are not 20,000 a year, you know, to, to buy, we use a software called invest next. And I, you know, I, I'm not, you know, I just have, I happen to know they have a low dollar amount, buy it to get in. If you, if you're managing just a couple of investors, they're, they're, I think it's, it might've been, it might be a hundred bucks a month or a little bit more than that to manage a couple of investors.   And of course it scales up as you have people in, but I find that as an investor, if I were past it and I'd do some passive investing too. But if I, you know, if I were passing, investing with somebody, knowing they've got their web interface, that goes to a portal, I can split my K one there in my data's all in their portal. And I can just pull it down when I need it. And everything like that is so much easier than knowing I got to go ping somebody or bother somebody. If I got a question or want to know how things are going, or what did you send me last month or whatever it is. And it's all in the portal, it's all in that system.   So I think it also just makes your company feel a little more professional as a syndicator, or as somebody offering any kind of, whether it's debt or equity, whatever, whatever you're offering your investor base. Those portals, I think are phenomenal that you've covered is whatever you're using.   Jesse (18m 12s): It's a it's cleaner too. I mean, you, you trade so much paper in the deal, especially with deals like this, and you have a bunch of investors and, you know, even, even today with, with the internet and emailing, it's just a lot where you can just say, here's this area. And I dunno for invest next. That's actually the first time I've heard of that, I don't know if that's something where, you know, you have your accountants or lawyers have access to that where they can dump data there. But I find, yeah, it's just, like you said, it, it makes it it's a professionalism aspect, but then it streamlines a lot of what you're doing.   Matt (18m 42s): Yeah. I mean, and that, that world is changing as I think that, that people become more, have more affinity and trust for things that are not wall street based from an investing standpoint. I think that you're going to see more and more of these kinds of interfaces for people to show up people to participate in. And so right now that's who we use, but who knows. I mean, maybe like, you know, QuickBooks gets into the business of that. At some point it becomes like super easy plug and play or whatever.   And so as we, I think as, as people start investing in things that are outside of wall street, more and more, there'll be more and more options. And that, and people just want like an easy professional interface. I can go get the data I need without me having to go to an individual to, to get what I want. So I think it's, it's a changing, evolving space. And there's some, I mean, just a couple of years ago, there were no portals now there's like, you know, a billion of them. And so I think that we'll see more and more services like that, that allow people like, you know, real estate investors or whatever, kind of a syndicator or business offering a person to be able to put their things out there and have it feel more and more professional for investors to participate in.   Yeah. It can be, Hey, we're just getting started on what?   Jesse (19m 53s): Yeah. And it's funny, like 10 years ago you were 15 years ago, you would have thought, oh, you can't, you know, you have to be one of the big banks or you have to be this investment house to have that. Whereas now, you know, like you said, who knows if it's a plugin or add onto QuickBooks in a couple of years in terms of the, for investors. So I'm sure you've got, we were at new Orleans at the BP cons, a lot of good talks there. You know, we, we chatted a little bit about, you know, how you've, you know, what you've been doing the last year or two years. I'm curious, you've probably had a number of people come up to you about the book on all different levels of where they're at in their investing career.   For those individuals that are say they haven't raised their first property, or maybe they've done one, but for the most part up to up to today, it's been bootstrapped. What kind of advice do you give individuals like that that are, that are maybe don't yet think that they have the confidence to be able to raise capital? And the other thing, probably thinking that, you know, why would somebody trust me to raise capital if I haven't done it before?   Matt (20m 52s): I think it's more important that you've got some real estate investing experience or real estate exposure versus whether or not you've raised capital from your network before I, and I think that that has to do with whether or not your network believes that you know, what you're doing with regards to, you know, that site. So I, if I, I tell people, if you can, you know, do your own deals, your own money, you know, or borrow money with collateralized, collateralized loans and that kind of stuff, and do a couple of deals on your own before you go put it out there or attach yourself to a larger operator, that's got a huge portfolio with tons of experience and everything like that with regards to accessing your network or having the right to ask them for money or whatever.   Raising private capital talks about the concept that everybody knows people with money. And those that tell me, they don't know, people with money are likely afraid to go to their network or concern, or just embarrassed or whatever, to go and make the ask. You know, I mean, my own immediate family is invested with me, you know, and I'm proud to say that and people, and I've, I've asked people like, well, would you allow your mom to invest with you? You know, and like, oh no, no, no, no. I'd never put my mother's money at risk.   Is that, well, let's take an examination on your business, but you'll let your mom go buy something off wall street, but you won't let her invest in something that you are operating, that you are driving or you have your finger on, on her behalf or your father's behalf, whatever it is. So I think that there's a, there's a look yourself in the mirror moment that people need to do to make sure that they've got an, a faith in what it is. They're building. That the people that are closest to them, they would trust involved in it. If that's not the case, then tighten up your hat, your investment houses to the point where that, that, that is something you're willing to stand behind and then you'll have enough confidence to, to take it to the, to take it public by then.   Jesse (22m 43s): Yeah. And it's something you talked about in the book and we talked about last time was there's a lot of people thinking that what they're doing is an ask where a think you reframe it as your it's an opportunity. And it sounds, it sounds funny and like, oh, it's just a, you know, it's whatever it's nomenclature, but it really is. It's no, no. It's, if you really believe in what you're raising capital for, whatever it is, whether it's a, you know, a movie in LA or it's a real estate piece of real estate and, you know, in Pennsylvania, it's really you saying here's an opportunity. Here's something I think, you know, I'm not asking you for money. I'm, I'm giving you an opportunity.   And I think, yeah,   Matt (23m 15s): I've been that embarrassed person want to give me some money from a real estate deal. I've been there. You know? And I mean, I get that. It's embarrassing at first. And it's tough asking people for anything for money specifically. Right. But if you reframe it for yourself, like, Hey, listen, I got a question for you, neighbor Bob, what's the stock market going to do tomorrow? You know, I don't know. You probably don't either, right? But I'll tell you what I have tenants and they're likely going to pay their rent. And if they don't every course, or I have loans out, and if you loan me money for my real estate stuff, you have collateral, meaning like you have a lien on the property, which means you can come take it if I don't pay you back.   You know? So I, I, I believe that there's this level of Moxy, if you will love a confidence that it takes to, to take yourself, to, to really show people that, that the, what you've got is going to work. And once you've got has, if this, the gnats, and, and then in some ways it has a lot of mortar, a lot of more of those than a typical wall street paper investment does. Yeah.   Jesse (24m 18s): In terms of getting into a little bit more complexity, you know, that, especially in the states right now, the fund to funds model is pretty big. And for, you know, for those that don't know a lot of, a lot of what we talk about here is syndication where it's deal specific capital raising, where when we started getting into fund of funds, you can be an LP, but you represent a larger pool of your own LPs in a say, limited partnership structure. I'm curious your view on that. Cause I don't think we've talked about this before the fund to funds model in general and you know, the associated type of fees or, you know, the different return that maybe you can ask for or demand based on the fact that you're bringing in an outsized LP size.   Yeah.   Matt (24m 58s): There's a lot of those out there. And I mean, from a syndicators perspective, that's kind of what you want is to be in a fund to funds because I can't tell you Jesse, how many times people call me up saying, Hey, I want to invest with you. And I love your deal. They will love what you guys do. Love your website, love your transparency, love all this stuff. And like, okay, great. I don't know the deal. I'll call you when I do. And then a couple months later when we have a deal to call them up and say, Hey, we have a deal. Remember the, remember the whole song you were singing about a great I was. And how I greet you on invest with being, let's go back to singing that song for a second.   And they're like, oh no, no, no. We already give that money to the next person that we called five minutes after we hung up with you. Right. Forgot the words   Jesse (25m 34s): To that song.   Matt (25m 35s): Yeah. Right. Oh, I forgot. Yeah. Yeah. What was that song again? Can you hold that only? Can you home the tone? Yeah. No. So there are, and I've been there myself and I think a lot of the syndicators out there just wanted to have a level of uniformity and a level of like an open door thing that's available whenever. And they just went, investors want to, are excited to get into something. You have the door open that they can hop in and that they can, you know, put their capital with a syndicator they trust. Right. What, what gets, and I see a lot of people that have a lot of deal flow, do that.   People that you and I both know that are, you know, talking heads in the world, I'll have, I'll have a lot of those now what makes me, I say nervous, but what you have to, as an investor, you have to make sure you vet completely as people that are raising capital. And then they're going to take that capital, invest with other people, right? Like who like, like, like it's a derivative fund, right. So it's like, well, why wouldn't I just go give it to that person? Oh, you're going to diversify me. I get it. Okay. Well, how much, what fee structure are you taking off the top?   You know, that I'm, that I'm now getting diluted by. Right. So I think it's just it's it's okay. Cause you do probably get diversification. You get, you know, diversified exposure across the board or whatever, maybe different asset classes. I know people that are running like a blended fund like that that's invested in self storage and flex industrial space and mobile home parks. Well, great. You get, you know, a little bit of everything and maybe geographic diversity to all kinds of cool stuff, but you want to make sure they're not just picking anybody.   They're not just shotgun approaching it. And just like, Hey, whoever's got a deal. I'll give you money. And th they, that they're properly vetting their operators. And then they're not taking too much of a fee in exchange for doing something that you arguably could do yourself too. You know, because I could call each one of those people. Now, it doesn't mean I don't believe in, in blended funds or whatever. It's something that we are doing as well. Although our blended fund does not invest in, it's not just a fund that invest in a bunch of multi-family. We see that there are things that are missing from syndications and those things are liquidity.   You can't get your money back in a syndication. If you will, if you invest in a syndication, you're locked in for five or more years, right. You can't compound your returns in a syndication. Right. I can't take the returns that you give me if I invest with you and recycle those returns back upon themselves and participate in compounding interest, which is Einstein said is the eighth merit eighth wonder of the world. Right. So I think more powerful. Yeah. So I can't, what, what a blended fund done properly can allow you to do.   If you invest with the right operator is something that allows you to compound your returns and get your money back when you want it. And not just how old the property is not going to sell for another four years and I can get you your money back. Right. So those are the, those are the things that we've worked on to blend in and you can't do just one asset class or one thing with one timeline, it's got to have multiple timelines of money coming in, coming out. Like it's got to have a short-term aspect and a long-term aspect. So that's the way we designed it. And in that, so it's something that we have active and it's something we did on a small scale because you don't have to have a $50 million fund.   It could be a couple million dollar fund and that, so that's something that we're doing, but I think that you're going to see more and more of them as capital becomes more. There's a lot of capital out there looking for a home. And so I think you're going to see more funds and not less because people are going to get, people are getting wise to it like, well, geez, I could just put up a sign that says I invest in real estate. And then, you know, I know a lot of luck. Well, a lot, a lot of capital's going to show up because there's a lot of capital looking for something different besides the wall beside wall street right now.   Jesse (29m 24s): And I think I'm just, I totally agree with your point where you're telling individuals, you know, just make sure that you're aware of what are the returns, sorry, what are the fees that are going to be taken on by the, by the person that's that is basically raising money for that fund, but then going to the other fund. And sometimes, you know, some people will say that absolutely not. They won't do fund to funds, but sometimes the returns are great. It's yeah, you're, it's a fee on a fee, but maybe you have an outsize preference promote that, that makes up for that, for that fee.   And the other thing too, you tell sometimes there's situations for investors where most likely, yeah, they have diversification, but most likely they couldn't have got into this particular dealer arrangement because you're putting, you know, you've raised 3 million for this one LP spot, so to speak. Whereas if you went in just on your own, you'd probably just be like all the other, you know, minimum say a hundred K or 50 K whatever the minimum investment is and your profile would probably look different.   Matt (30m 20s): Well, I mean, there are, when you get it, when you've aggregated that much money through a fund, you can kind of call your own shots, you know? And that's maybe what you're saying is that, you know, somebody calls up a syndicator in St. Louis and I see you're raising 10 million. Well, what if I give you half of that? Yeah. You know, w what would you be able to do for me? Can you pay my investors a little higher rate of return? Can you, you know, whatever. And instead of that investor, th that syndicator saying, oh, yeah, I'm going to go and raise this at, you know, I'm going to go and get the 150 of my best friends to invest in this deal with me.   You know, I can just go to you. And maybe some of my, some of my best friends to, and maybe you make my life a lot easier. I believe that's what they're doing. As I've seen that happen. We've been approached by that too, for people that, that have, you know, kind of like assembled a lot of money and you can call you, you know, what was your oyster at that point? And so maybe if you're a good negotiator, you can kind of like, you know, put up, put together a win-win.   Jesse (31m 19s): Yeah. And I think there's a, to your point of, we're going to see a lot more funds. I think we'll see a lot more of this too, just in the same way. Specialization usually happens in an industry and you might have somebody that's great at raising capital, but maybe it is not the operator. And they go to the DeRosa group and they say, Hey guys, do you have anything on the spigot right now? We'd love to be, be an investor on your deal. And they see you as a great operator. And they, you know, they want that LP spot. But I think, I think we're definitely seeing more and more of it in the market.   Matt (31m 47s): Yeah. And you will, and we will, as I think that, you know, what we do becomes less and less of a secret, and there are, there's even bigger wall street, you know, money working its way into like, not like owning it to an apartment building, but working its way into LP level syndications, you know, what broker dealers coming around going like, say, Hey, listen, we used to, you know, only raise a hundred million for big, big, big, big, big operators. Now, guess what, if you need 10 million, we'll go raise that for you.   Or, you know, like the broker dealers are dropping what they're willing to raise for because it's, they're seeing their clients wanting exposure to private placements and things like that. So we've been approached by a few broker dealers. I think it's beginning of the, of, of the amount of capital that's going to come into the real estate space. And maybe it's all through maybe a lot of it's through funds   Jesse (32m 40s): Problems. It's something that I'm very curious how this kind of rolls out because even in our Canadian context, in the U S similarly, the broker, it's always been a bit of a gray area where, you know, if you, if you raise for a fund, okay, you're, you're not necessarily a broker dealer, then you keep doing it and keep doing it. It's like, w you know, at what point do you have to be, to be a pure broker dealer, or, you know, I'm not sure how it works in your state, but I think there is, as, as it gets more and more, what would you say institutionalized?   You feel like some of the, some of the legal framework, I don't know if that will evolve or change, but definitely a lot going on there.   Matt (33m 16s): It's starting to the sec has already changed up the whole Kappa. They're changing the capital raiser laws. They've also changed up. There's some call that out, came a, it was a couple of years ago, but nobody's really, it's becoming popular now. And it's called regulation CF, which allows you to sell more micro sheriffs. The non-accredited investments. We did shares of one of our syndications that a thousand dollars a piece. So now that's not that wasn't, the, the whole syndication was much, much larger share prices, but we, we broke off a small chunk of the deal just to test it out, to see how it goes.   Cause not to, like my personal mission is to offer what we do as syndicators and his real estate investments to everyone. Like, I want everyone to be able to get into some sort of a passive investment if they choose to, without having to read an enormous check or go to put any of their tone time in or whatever. And so I think the world's going to change to the point where more and more people are going to be allowed to, or aware of alternative ways to make money and alternative ways to invest outside of just buying a stock off wall street. They can still do that.   And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I think it's wrong is that that's the only choice that many people have had, unless you're in the know or in like the country club or silver spoon network or something like that, then you knew about other things, other ways, other, you know, good old boy network plays that you could do investing well, that's all busted up and now it's a lot wider, but I think that there's a lot more widening that can happen for more and more people. And eventually everyone to invest in these kinds of things. And the rules are slowly, you know, it's it's government velocity, Jessie.   So the lows are there. The rules are slowly changing. Yeah.   Jesse (34m 59s): Well, it ties in with what we were saying before, too, as the systems increase, improve, you have the ability for operators like yourself to unitize and get smaller. And then you offer that down to the retail, you know, quotations, retail, I guess, customer   Matt (35m 12s): I'll give you a big vision. I have one day and I mean, I might make an, a, we have a deal under contract right now that I might try it. I don't know how it's going to go, which means like on this, but I want to buy an apartment building and I want to offer for people that live there, the right to buy equity in the apartment building.   Jesse (35m 30s): Hmm. That's interesting. That's almost like a co-op model.   Matt (35m 34s): Yeah. But they're not, they don't have to own the whole in a co-op typically the people that live there are the only ones that aren't all right. They all ages. If you live there, you own it. Right. And it's considered home ownership right now. I'm Todd. This still be a syndication to pass a mess, but I'm not. I'm talking about going to the tenants that are living in a 200 unit building and saying, Hey, listen, how about for 500 bucks? I'll let you own a little bit of the sticks and bricks of where you live. You pay him cash flow, you pay him upside residual. You give him a K one, you pay them the whole thing. And because of those portals, we just talked about, I can post a K one.   I can post their ACH payments and everything like that. It's, it's just as simple. It's all spreadsheets, you know? So 20 people or 200 people, or 4,000 people are technically just as easy to manage through an online portal. Right. And that's, that's a wacky idea. I have, I'll probably get talked out of it, but my team that are more, more pragmatic than I am, but   Jesse (36m 31s): I just don't write another blog Gus, and you'll never do it. I   Matt (36m 34s): Know. Right, right, right. Yeah. I will. I'll do it. I'll make it happen. If I go out there and say, I will never know you will, you know,   Jesse (36m 43s): Well that I want to be mindful of the time we were coming up to the end here, but I'd love to get your thoughts, you know, before we can talk a little bit about how people can reach you and talk, you know, we're where they can find the book. Cheers. Your, your view on the market right now in, I know you're an optimist like myself, but w you know, where do you see the opportunities in the next let's call it short term? Are you thinking differently given, given the last year?   Matt (37m 8s): Okay. I'll give a few different opportunities that I see that I think not in a people are focusing on right now. And then I'll think I'll tell you where I think the market's going to, you know, for, for, for go break out my crystal ball, right? So I think that not enough people are focusing on revitalizing industrial applications in the United States. I think that there should be more industrial flex space. As we continue to become more Amazon defied in our world, there's going to need to be more flex space. More people leasing like three to 4,000 square foot of small warehouse to do light, light, industrial manufacturing, or light storage with a little bit of office space sitting there as, as we get into more of, of the right now economy of, of, you know, shipping small products or whatever, to peoples it's in people's homes and selling things online or whatever.   And boutique brokerage buddy of mine owns a small flex space. And he's got a guy that sells exotic fish out of a little flex space. And he's got fish tanks, probably 30,000 gallons where the fish tanks and this little industrial space, and he's got every kind of fish you'd ever think of. And you can buy them from this guy online and they'll ship them off to you for a, for a crazy price. You can buy these really cool fish for people that are hardcore, you know, fish collectors that can't just go to PetSmart to get their, the fish that they want.   They want something really cool. That's been bred. And you know, that specific or whatever, because of the internet, the magic internet box, things like that are becoming more and more applicable. Right? So I think that there's, we're going to see, we're going to need a lot more of that kind of space in this country have a lot of spaces like that are tired and drawn down. Additionally, this could be an opportunity to repurpose things that are no longer applicable anymore in America. Like we don't, we probably got too much office space, probably got too much retail space in, in, in, in north America, let's say America and Canada.   So I think there's gonna be an opportunity for somebody to think of cool applications for the rundown strip center, down the street, from their house or for the office building. That's 50% dark. You guys think of that idea. You know what, whatever, whatever ways maybe it's living space, maybe it's a school. I don't know. You guys think of it and do something amazing right now with regards to multi-family as much as feel like it's overheated, it's overpriced or whatever. I think, unfortunately, we are going to be looking at some inflation in the next couple of years now. I think it's actually going to drive up.   It's going to drive up wages. It's going to drive up cost of goods and it's going to drive up breaths. And I think that that's going to overall, if not keep multifamily as a high priced asset, it'll maybe drive it up a little bit more. I don't see rates going up anytime soon, maybe a little teeny bit, but not like double or triple or whatever, because I don't think the fed the U S government can't afford to raise rates, you know, given what it would do to our debt if, if rates went up. So I don't think we're going to see huge, huge spike in rates. Maybe a little bit sticker just to try and keep up with inflation, but believe it or not, I think multi-family is going to continue to be a hot commodity.   It's not, I don't see any fundamental that makes it crash anytime soon. And so I think maybe it slows down a little bit. It'd be nice if it kind of hit a ceiling a little bit and slowed down just a nudge. But I do think that it's not, nothing's going to clip it anytime soon. And I think it'll be a good asset to be in for the foreseeable future because we're just not building enough housing and there's becoming more and more people. And we're the housing construction we're building is nowhere near keeping up with the population demand for it. So that's my 2 cents Jesse, and it could be completely wrong on all that stuff, but that's what I think I was going to say,   Jesse (40m 43s): No, that was the, the quickest crystal ball three minutes. And you heard it here first folks. Yeah. I could agree with you more on that. I mean, we pretty much, you know, what, what are we a lagging indicator for the states, despite what you would read and see in the media? You guys continue to be a big player when it comes to immigration and population growth in some of the major cities in the states and Canada. And I think that to your point, I don't know who is more supply constraint. I know we are from a multi-racial standpoint, continue to be.   So, you know, until, until we start seeing more supply, it's really hard to say that multi-family is going to do anything, but at least stay where it's at. If not, like you said in shop, I think for, from my point of view, it's, it's going to be the prices. The prices are going to get to a point where I feel that's not going to be the deciding factor of if they continue to go up, it's going to be the, the, the net operating income side. It's going to be the affordability side. Now, how much higher can that go?   Matt (41m 39s): You can't sit root capris. Can't go much lower. But I mean, I think America is finally realizing that maybe Canada has it, right. Maybe you ought to pay people a real living wage for doing what they do. And, and that $7 an hour is probably not enough, you know? And that, so you see companies like, you know, Amazon McDonald's Starbucks that are paying 15, 20, 20 $5 an hour, which is to be straight, man. That's really what it takes to get by, to raise them. You can't raise a family on seven or $10 an hour, $12 an hour, forget it. You know, there is a family you can feed yourself on that, you know?   And so the fat and the, and it's just not fair that some Americans to keep their lights on, have to work two, maybe three jobs, you know, that ain't right either. And so we're going to see, I think, a correction on living wage and a wage, one, what, what an acceptable wage rate would be in the U S and that unfortunately is going to push up cost of living so   Jesse (42m 34s): Well, I appreciate that Matt, we will look in a year if that prognostication is correct, and we'll hold you to it,   Matt (42m 41s): I've drawn a year from now. We'll just listen to this episode and disagree with everything you and I said, yeah, they're   Jesse (42m 46s): Just a bunch of talks about how   Matt (42m 48s): Wrong with those two guys, right?   Jesse (42m 50s): Matt, in terms of you've done the final four before. So I will skip that. But in terms of where people can reach out to you, aside from a Google search of Matt grouper DeRosa, where can I send them?   Matt (43m 3s): They can go to Instagram at the mat, fair cloth to check me out there. They can go to my company website, which is DeRosa right there behind me, D E R O S a group.com DeRosa group.com. And they can do all kinds of cool stuff, like check out a copy of my book, which they can buy on my website. They can, you know, check out our YouTube channel. They can join our mailing list. It can hear all about the passive cool stuff that we're doing as well@derosagroup.com.   Jesse (43m 28s): My guest today has been Matt Faircloth, cloth, Matt, thanks for being part of working capital.   Matt (43m 33s): Thank you, Jesse.   Jesse (43m 40s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one take care.Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My guests today are returning guests, Matt fare, cloth, founder, and CEO of the DeRosa group.   Matt has been a full-time investor for over 15 years. Just talked a little bit about the deal volume here over a hundred million in real estate transactions and controlling over 1000 units in multifamily mats, a regular contributor and podcast guests on biggerpockets.com has an active YouTube channel dedicated to educating investors and the author of the Amazon bestseller. Highly recommend raising private capital. How to build your real estate empire with other people's money. Matt, how's it going?   Matt (59s): Good. I'm good, Jesse. It's great being here, man. Am I, did I, did you tell me a bit at BiggerPockets conferences? This is that I'm your first repeat appearance on your podcast?   Jesse (1m 8s): No, the first repeat appearance was definitely the BR Brandon Turner. So   Matt (1m 13s): Yeah, you're right. Yeah,   Jesse (1m 15s): But you're there though. You know, you're very generous in the, the first, first few episodes. I think you were you're right on. I think that was right when you started marketing the book, but you know, I think at that point I read half of it completed it a long time ago. A great book. I thought it was, I thought it was just for us, at least it was very perfect timing, which is fine.   Matt (1m 37s): I gotta be here, man. I should get like, we should do like the SNL jacket thing, like finding it loud when there's repeat guests, you know, like we should do like the, like the special, like the number five collab or whatever it is. I'm in the number two clubs now at Brandon. So I want to, I'm glad to be back here with you, man. Thanks for that.   Jesse (1m 52s): It's great to have you, you know what, I didn't even ask before we started. Are you still, are you still in out of Jersey right now or   Matt (1m 59s): So we have an office building in Jersey, but we, we work, but my wife and I have since moved to Pennsylvania just across the bridge, across the river from New Jersey. And now we live just north of Philly in a little town called new hope, Pennsylvania.   Jesse (2m 14s): Nice, nice. And how long has this, how long have you been there now? Three years. Awesome. Cool. Is that you guys doing some deals out there or was it just more of a, a kind of a personal things to   Matt (2m 25s): We move? I, you know, Jesse, I never thought I would be the guy to live in like a, like a suburban development, you know, but you know what, man, I, I got like the whole modern family house. I got, I live in a cul-de-sac and everything like that. The kids go out and play. I know my neighbors, circuitry, Katrina, the bomb, that, that whole thing. So w my wife and I are both urbanites, you know, I've, I've lived in or around urban cores for most of my life. And now we're in the burbs man.   And I, and I love it. I don't know if I'll be in the burbs forever, but for right now with two young kids, this is kind of the, where you want to be. So, no, that's perfect. Yeah. It's been a big, big, big change for us. Well, that's great.   Jesse (3m 6s): So I guess, you know, for listeners, just to catch us up to speed, it's been a, it's been quite a while since we spoke, you know, we've had a couple of major global situations. We've probably the last few years for, you have been a pretty interesting with the book and to see how that's been going. So maybe you could catch us up to speed a little, what you've been up to the last, the last year or two.   Matt (3m 29s): Yeah, man, what's interesting is that when, at my I've been investing for 16 years full-time and what, what I've in, in the beginning part of our career, we were into single family homes. We were in a, you know, a small office complex that, you know, the one down there and Trenton, we would do a lot, a lot of mixed use buildings here and there. And we were invested in, in what a lot of beginning and newer investors would, would consider to be, you know, like the typical deal, like single family, home, small, multi, you know, those kinds of things.   And we ended up scaling up to a reasonable portfolio of those kinds of things. But then, you know, through, through just being able to prove the proof in the pudding for ourselves to show that we were able to, what we were able to do for investors at a scale out best practice as we grew. And so we did, like, we stretched up a little bit into a 10 unit apartment building. Then we stretched a little bit further and did an 18 unit. Then we special bowl further into 49 unit. Right. And that's probably about when you and I had talked, right.   Or is a 49 unit apartment building. Then we went and did 198 unit in, in North Carolina. And then we, we realized the scalability and, and the, and that once we had proven that street cred to our investor base and to ourselves and to prop and, and that we were able to take best practices. We had learned in doing the small stuff and to the larger staff that that's been, our primary focus is, is a mid to large real estate deals for, you know, mid-size multifamily.   And so what I, to answer your question, what I've been focusing on in my time doing the last couple of years, scaling out a team of people that helped me run the larger real estate stuff. And I've got an, a plus team now, th that, that run all that. And I've been spending my time leading that team and, and charging us through COVID and, you know, inflation and all that stuff, but also working on the things that we still own, right. I mean, a couple of years ago, we still owned a lot of that single family homes and duplexes and triplexes and that kind of stuff, and slowly divesting those things and, you know, taking, doing our best to care of the investors that are in those projects and giving them, giving them the best trends that we could so that we can put our focus on just on the larger deals while we still properly unwind and take care of the small stuff.   So we've really been becoming like all grows up, you know, in the last couple of years, as, as a real estate company, you really just focusing on, you know, bigger and large stuff, well, maintaining and selling the small stuff. So the last couple of years Jesse's been all about the focus, transition optimization of, of, of the optimization and of the smaller things while leading and growing into new territory for us on the larger deals.   Jesse (6m 21s): Yeah. It sounds like at that point, you're, you're dealing with scale scaling with systems in terms of the, I think it was the 49 unit probably was the last time we spoke. So that one that jumped from the 49 unit up, how was that different if it was two from the one prior to the 49? And I think that was like an 18 unit or something, right from the 1849. So was that, was that transition from the 18 to 49, different from that transition from 49 to the, to the larger stuff you guys are doing.   So   Matt (6m 52s): The 18 to 49 was probably the biggest chunk and he will here's. This is interesting. Here's why, right. So what we decided to do when we were running everything, I even wrote an article for BiggerPockets years ago. And the article said, why I will never buy a deal outside of 30 minutes away from my office. Right. I had to eat the, I literally, if I, if those words were on paper, I'd pull it up and eat them right now. Right. Literally like little hot sauce on it. Now it ethos words, because at that time it made sense for me to scale out with in-house property management.   Like these are my employees, in-house maintenance, property management interface between the tenants, office manager, bookkeeper, that kind of thing. So I had a reasonable size team. We ran, you know, like, like a north of a hundred unit portfolio with, and it ran well, and it could have, we could have scaled that up to, you know, in, in, into the mid to high hundreds, or even floated with a thousand units or whatever of in-house owned, in-house manages managed units. And when we, the 18 unit we managed in house, and so had that down at the protocol down, had the process orientation down for that, then this 49 unit shows up and that one's two hours away from the 18 unit.   And I was like, man, I wrote that article, I guess I probably, you know, I don't know, but it's in a great location, great market, you know, love the location that it's in. It's, it's just all everything added up and the numbers added up on it and everything worked. And we had proven ourselves on many other smaller deals to investors and private lenders that we get enough people lined up to get into a larger deal. So we said, you know what, let's tackle this larger project. Like, w let's give it, let's give it a bit, let's get into this. We think we can do it.   Problem is Jesse, we'd hire a third party manager to run that property. So I, and this, at the time, God blessed my wife. She's like my muse, you know, I told her we're going to scale up property management, two hours away from our home in Lancaster. And she was like, why don't you just give it a shot to run third-party management? Because if you don't like third-party management, or if they're not doing a good job, you could just fire them and bring it in house. But why don't you try using another management company? And I think that she saw that that's, that, that, that was really going to help us scale by taking a focus off management and focus on capital growth processes, you know, renovations, capital may, you know, capital improvements, those kinds of things.   And it was a huge shift in running a team, going from running a team that I managed and developed a protocol and they'll work for me. And they ran around. Yeah. Right. They're my people versus going to a team that was not my people, third-party property management. It's a major shift, but it was a game changer.   Jesse (9m 46s): So curious about that, cause we we've dealt with a third department property management and I'm sure listeners that are invested, you know, either having in-house or having third party. Was there anything specific or kind of the big things that, that were the hardest to get over with that transition, whether it's them, you know, having their systems as opposed to using your systems, was there anything major that, you know, it was, it was just really that it was a challenging one to, to kind of relinquish a little power.   Matt (10m 12s): Well, the accounting thing, you know, you figure out the accounting stuff, cause it's not like they're, they're keeping your books, you know, on the back of a napkin. Right. That's it, that's an easier transition than people think it is. They call, well, we use QuickBooks and they use that folio. How we can we get, you know, what give you, I'll give you an hour or two, you probably figure it out. You know, that's way, way easier than the real. Then the real deal stuff. It's like, well, what are the interfaces? And what are the decision-making what's the decision-making protocol? How much rent should I charge for that vacant apartment?   Right. Should I, or should I not replay, like I have a leak in the ceiling, should I patch the roof? Or should I open up the ceiling to see if there's something inside it that's causing the leak from HVHC doctor or something like that. Right. Yeah. So it's, it's the, if this, then that type of protocol, that is the biggest shift and this level of trust you have to have for the property management team and for their protocol. And just to understand that there's things that are going to happen over here and you're just not even gonna know about it, you know? And so there's a level of having the faith and trust to go a little bit more hands-off and trust that they're going to be able to implement your ideas and visions, but you still got to have your finger on them to the point where you can, you know, catch issues or be like, Hey, we've that ceiling's been leaking for the last three weeks, three months.   And the tenant keeps calling back and they're saying that their HVHC is not working, you know, or that tenants complained of bugs four times in a row. Well, maybe it's because they're not living. Maybe it's because of an issue they're causing versus something that's actually in the building. You know what I'm saying? Stuff like that, that, that you still have to have your finger on as an owner, you cannot hands off and too many owners just go like this completely. But it's like, what's the level of me letting them run their business while I still manage the asset. And that's where the concept of asset management comes in.   Jesse (12m 4s): Yeah. I was going to say, it's like the, you give up a little bit on the property management or everything, depending on what you're doing, but then your internal controls have to go up, right? You need to have those systems of, and it could be as easy as, even on a smaller scale, you know, you're spending X amount of dollars, anything over this, we need executive approval or anything related to this. We need, you know, you have a process, like you said, if then, you know what F and then have a decision tree, you know, between, between you, the property manager,   Matt (12m 31s): Except that their protocol is that, well, we don't call an owner unless we have an expensive of 500 bucks and you have to be okay with that. Like, okay, well, do I want to get calls at a lower number or whatever it is. It's about understanding the process and accepting certain things. And knowing like, this is something I could probably live with. And this is something that I needed to change protocol for. Right. That was probably one of the bigger shifts. And just knowing you don't want to, here's here, I'll give you the term because everybody uses this term now cause attraction and stuff like that, the book attraction is KPIs and determining what the KPIs are for property management, that you need to keep your finger on and stuff that you can just let them run.   And not that it doesn't matter, but it's not going to really affect the things that it's not going to go direct to bottom line. And, and if, if it gets really bad, it'll trigger a KPI, you know, and that, so what are the things on the property management side that I have to hold them accountable t

SCIP IntelliCast
Gardens of Intelligence - Scaling CI Platforms

SCIP IntelliCast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2021 39:08


In this  episode of SCIP IntelliCast, we speak with the authors of the new book Gardens of Intelligence – Designing Robust Digital Market & Competitive Intelligence Platforms, Jesper Martell and Gabriel Anderbjörk.  While Gardens of Intelligence is a new-to-world approach, it's backed by decades of experience at successful global organizations like Ericsson. Our conversation with Jesper and Gabriel covers: How companies can use Gardens of Intelligence to plan investments in people, technology, and information depending on their unique needs The 3 components every organization needs for an Market & Competitive Intelligence department to consistently deliver valueThe role of artificial intelligence & machine learning in the intelligence cycleHow organizations' information needs change as they advanceThe rise in importance of managerial skills for MCI professionalsAs Gabriel says in this episode, "CI is growing into a management profession, far more than just an analytical profession."

The Protagonist Podcast
Jesper and Klaus from Klaus (film 2019)

The Protagonist Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 6, 2021 59:48


Description Returning guest John Darowski joins Joe and Producer Andrew to discuss the animated film Klaus. This film, available on Netflix, tells an origin story for Santa Claus as seen through the experiences of a cynical mailman named Jesper. Featuring … Continue reading →

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi
Avsnitt 329 - "När Första Ljuset Brinner..."

Nördliv - En podcast om spel och nörderi

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 28, 2021 130:16


Medverkande denna gång är: Danny, Fredrik och Jesper.Veckans avsnitt och redan första advent, ja tiden går allt bra snabbt. Men denna vecka så pratar vi om att Nintendo, Sony och Microsoft alla har gått ut och kritiserat Activision Blizzard. Elden Ring prognostiserar en försäljning på fyra miljoner exemplar under de fem första veckorna. Vi pratar om hur framtiden kan se ut med högre mängd rekommenderat RAM-Minne som krav för spel. Kojima startar upp film- och tv-serie division. Jesper och Fredrik har sett Ghostbusters: Afterlife. Fredrik har sett de första avsnitten av Hawkeye och ger oss en uppföljning på The Wheel of Time. Jesper har sett Disneys nya film Encanto, samt League of Legends serien Arcane. Jesper och Fredrik pratar om Pokémon Brilliant Diamond Danny ger oss en förhandstitt på Bright Memory: Infinite som han håller på och recensera. Samt att vi tar upp December månads spelsläpp. Detta och mycket mer i veckans avsnitt!Detta är några av de saker vi tar upp i avsnittet, men det finns lite smått och gott som också tas upp.Hoppa gärna med i vår Discord, där vi har omröstningar på olika ämnen och diskussioner om allt nördigt. Låter det intressant, ja tryck här i så fall.★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Finding & Funding Real Estate Deals with Anson Young | EP80

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2021 36:53


Anson Young is a Real Estate Agent and Investor with Hundreds of Transactions Completed in Each Category of Real Estate. Anson and his team Specialize in Marketing directly to Sellers for Off-market Deals, Using Many of the Methods that can be Found in his Book Finding & Funding Great Deals. When not Working, Anson can be Found Exploring the Wilds of Colorado's Rocky Mountains with his family, Reading Favourite Books to his Son, and Attending Loud Rock Concerts. In this episode we talked about:  • Anson's Bio & Background  • Anson's First Steps in Real Estate Business  • Becoming a Real Estate Agent   • Anson's Main Focus in Real Estate  • Raising capital   • Private Landing  • Sourcing Deals   • Building an Off-Market List  • Prospecting and finding  Opportunities  • Anson's Thoughts on Inflation and Interest Rates  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned   Useful links: https://www.instagram.com/younganson/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/c/ansonyoung Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Right? Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica galleon. You're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is aunts and young Anson is a real estate agent and investor with hundreds of transactions completed in each category, real estate Anson, and his team specialize in marketing directly to sellers for off-market deals, using many methods that can be found in his book, finding and funding great deals when not working ants and can be found exploring the wilds of Colorado with his family and tending loud rock concerts.   And I can see you got a twig behind you there, and son, how you doing?   Anson (54s): I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me, Jesse.   Jesse (56s): Yeah, my pleasure having you on, what do you got there? Is that a base? It's hard to tell because   Anson (1m 1s): That one's a five string bass.   Jesse (1m 4s): I like it. Fantastic, man. Well, thanks for coming on. We were just chatting before the show, like a few of the most recent guests you were speaking at BP con this year, what was, what was your topic?   Anson (1m 17s): So my topic this year was finding the deals in any market and it focused on kind of out of state investing or long distance real estate investing, building a team, you know, how basically how to go ahead and find those deals, whether it's networking or off market. And, and yeah, that's seems to be a hot topic. Everybody's market is too expensive. So they're looking at other markets and I figured I'd hit on that since that's what I'm doing too. So   Jesse (1m 47s): Yeah, absolutely. It's certainly topical right now. It's we kind of joke around about the inverse relationship between, you know, the, the lower interest rates are, the cheaper money is the harder it is to find deals.   Anson (1m 59s): Oh yeah, for   Jesse (1m 60s): Sure. So in terms of a little bit of your background for listeners that aren't familiar with you, maybe you could kind of take us back to how you got into real estate. I know you just mentioned on the outset, you're also an agent. Maybe you could take us back to the beginning of how that journey started.   Anson (2m 17s): Yeah, sure. So back in 2003 or so I was working in it, I got laid off like everybody did, it feels like kind of boat, post.com, bubble burst. And so I was just looking around of what to do next. Do I go back into it? Do I double down in that arena or do I do something else? And at the same time, my wife and I were going to move down to Phoenix from Denver to be closer to family, my brother had just moved there.   They were having their first kid. So I was like, you know what? I don't have a corporate job anymore. I could kind of move wherever I want. And right before I left a friend of mine handed me rich dad, poor dad, which is, I think just the basic origin story of all real estate investors these days. But, but literally read that book on the way down to Arizona and changed my entire mindset about what I could do, what I should do and why going back into a corporate environment, probably wasn't the best idea.   And so landed in Phoenix and decided new city, a new me, and kind of jumped in and tried to learn as much as I could about anything that I could about real estate. And at the same time I was bartending. And so nights were spent working and days were spent trying to figure out real estate. So that's kind of a, that's kind of where I got started.   Jesse (3m 48s): That's great. So in terms of kind of getting into that mindset, I mean, not, not a dissimilar from a lot of people that come on the podcast or just talking in general, rich dad, poor dad just seems to be a cornerstone for a lot of, at least the beginning of real estate education, because I think ultimately the quadrants of that book for, you know, for anybody that hasn't read it, you definitely have to go check that book by Robert Kiyosaki. But I think it is ultimately when you get to that fourth quadrant where it's passive or, you know, quotations passive investments, I think real estate is just, it kind of lends itself to that, to that type of investment or that type of income.   Anson (4m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. And I had no idea that any of that existed, I mean, the guy who gave me the book, Paul, we were, I remember talking in this parking lot late at night and, and, and, and I couldn't even wrap my brain around getting a second mortgage. Like you have one mortgage who's going to give you money for a second house. You know, like that, that's how small my mindset was until that book helped me unlock and unpack what's possible.   So it, there's a reason why it's so such an origin story for many of us is because we weren't really taught that. And, and then this, this book just showed us kind of a different way of how things could work. Yeah,   Jesse (5m 10s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's funny cause you know, that book, it really, it hits people in totally different, different jobs and different times in their life. And it still seems to be one of the ones that keeps coming up. So you, you read rich dad, poor, poor dad, you're you get laid off from your job where once, once that clicks for you and that light bulb goes off, what was, what was your process after that?   Anson (5m 35s): So I'm like, like many people starting off. I had no clue what I was doing. So I basically attended every single meetup that I could find from kind of Rhea meetups, real estate investment associations, to like cashflow one-on-one games. So, you know, tied in with the, the rich poor dad, it's basically a board game that people get together and play that kind of go through the principles of financial freedom and stuff.   And so anywhere that I could latch on to people who were doing real estate, I was there and I, I kind of made that my full-time job of, of doing that I've formed relationships. And in that I just started doing, trying to provide as much value as possible. So I'd go do all kinds of odds and end tasks for them for a couple of investors and a couple of agents. And in return, you know, all I asked for was just information. Like I would go run contracts, you know, for a long time for an agent.   And then I would ask for, Hey, can you teach me how to value properties on ML MLS? And so trying to provide that value first and then asking for something in return later on. And so I, I ran contracts, I punched signs in yards. I knocked on doors for a foreclosure investor. Feel like I did all these different things to try to learn as much as possible. And about after nine months to a year, one of the agents reciprocated with a deal.   And she was like, Hey, one of my clients has a property that they want to sell. I think that it would be great for you guys kind of sent over the numbers, helped me run through it and ended up to be our first deal. And it was a live in flip that we spent the next year fixing up and, and, you know, figuring out what's next. But we, we sold it after a year and ended up moving back to Denver. And so it was perfect timing because that was right at the end of 2005. And I think the Phoenix market crashed the next week.   So, so we got out just in time, but I learned a lot on that first deal and then went ahead and just appended and moved markets, which felt like starting over that's that's, that's kinda how that deal went. So   Jesse (7m 58s): Kind of started on that deal. Similar to a lot of individuals were, I guess, somewhat of a, you know, some people call it house hacking where you were living in at the time, but also renting out a, would that be fair to say it was kind of that, that type of arrangement for the first one?   Anson (8m 13s): No, we did. We did kind of a, it needed a lot of work. And so we just decided to move in and fix it while we were living there. We were fixing up stuff, you know, as time and money permitted and by the end of it, you know, it was fixed up and ready to go. And actually my agent w I, I had sent her an email, you know, we had gone to Vegas for our anniversary decided right then that we were kind of just done with Phoenix.   I sent her an email saying, Hey, I think we're going to sell. And she's like, I'll buy it. Like my parents will buy this. Like, she had very much faith that the market was going to keep and she was a little bit wrong on that, but that's okay. Yeah. So she gave us a really good price on it. We ended up making, I think $60,000 on it after a year, which isn't too bad and, you know, had some money to go back to Denver and continue the journey   Jesse (9m 11s): Right on. So was the journey continuing on that kind of operational level where it was value add deals or did you, did you pivot?   Anson (9m 22s): I think I, yeah, it was definitely a value add deals. When I got back, I felt like it was starting over because I didn't have a lot of real estate contacts I didn't have, I didn't know the market. And so, no, I kind of just went back to basics. I started working with investors and agents. I actually got hired on to a real estate agent team and was doing broker price opinions for banks. And right then I just, I figured out this whole thing of bank owned foreclosures and that this could be, you know, a really big thing.   And so, so from then on, probably for the next two years, pretty much everything that I bought was a bank owned foreclosure. So they were all distressed value, add properties that, that had almost no emotion into them because the banks don't care if you low ball them, they just care if it meets their kind of pricing matrix. So that was a fun time to be in real estate for sure. But I got my license maybe a year after I moved back and just kind of did both. I was an agent investor just kind of juggling both things.   Hm.   Jesse (10m 29s): So in terms of the kind of becoming an agent, because you get lots of people that are like, should I get my license as an investor, if you're going to make that switch, did you find it was something that was kind of critical or a nice to have type of type of thing where you still had to develop relationships with host of different agents?   Anson (10m 50s): Yeah. I found it to be absolutely critical to all the real estate that I was doing. Just, just from a, you know, obviously if I'm buying Oreos and my entire existence of finding deals is on MLS. I don't want to be one step removed from that process. I want to be, you know, like a direct actor in that process. And so right in front of MLS on a daily basis to try to find, you know, the deals that I'm looking for, rather than relying on an agent to send them to me, or, you know, go around the back door and give me their log-in or something like that, I could shoot off offers immediately, you know, set showings, do the things that I needed to do to go lock up these deals.   And so for me, it was absolutely pivotal   Jesse (11m 41s): In terms of kind of where you've developed your business today. So you kind of, you go through this process, there's the light bulb moment. You, you see that it's, there's proof of concept when you, you know, in one year you make 60 grand catch us up to today. What, where are you focusing? Not on, not just from a, from a geographical standpoint, but even from a type of asset or type of real estate that maybe you focus on or areas that you focus on.   Anson (12m 7s): Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years between wholesales fix and flip. What I'm pivoting towards this year is more longterm buy and hold properties, single family, a small multifamily, those kinds of properties. And so that's a little bit different for me. I'm, I'm used to doing this transactional turn and burn, and now I'm trying to slow down and think for the longterm so that I can, you know, actually have something to show for my effort rather than just, you know, larger pay check, so to speak.   And so, so Ben pivoting in that direction as, as a business and Ben geographically in three different markets this year, just testing things out and getting the ball rolling on long-term cashflow. So that's kind of where we're at.   Jesse (13m 3s): So answered for the actual capital raising side of the business for you or where you source capital has that changed over the, the last few years? And if so, how, how has that evolved for, for yourself?   Anson (13m 16s): It hasn't changed too much once I kind of discovered private money lending before the sec kind of changed their rules, we would kind of just cold call for private lenders, developed relationships with them, had a good track record over time. And so after a while, you know, we would get referred to their friends who were looking to, you know, make, you know, a 10 to 14% return on their investment. And, and so, so yeah, so it hasn't changed too much because we're still using short-term even on these long-term projects we're using short-term funds to, to acquire them and then refinance it now to a more portfolio or, or bank loan style financing.   So I guess that side's new, but when we go into purchase, we're still using like our same private money lenders. They know that they're going to hang on for, you know, three to six months until we refinance out, but that's not too different from a flip where we would hold onto it for three to six months and they would get paid out at the end of that. So, so the, you know, the initial buy is the same. It's just that long-term piece of now it's going to convert into something long-term. So can you,   Jesse (14m 34s): You talked to, to that a little bit for listeners, you know, for that type of approach where you are, you know, getting short term finance, when you have a project going on and then stabilizing after that, maybe you could to kind of run through how that works. And, and, you know, on top of that private lending, I think is a bit of a black box for a lot of people. So, you know, maybe, maybe get your thoughts on that as well.   Anson (14m 59s): What do you mean by black box?   Jesse (15m 0s): Well, I, I feel that a lot of people that aren't in our industry, they hear private money and it sounds like they're meeting somebody in an alleyway and they're handing them a bag of cash. So I think, I think from like, I think for a lot of people, they don't realize how many private lenders there are out there, how many more options you have than just walking up to the bank that you've known for years, or are you, you know, you know, the brand,   Anson (15m 25s): Right? Yeah. So in, you know, I wish it was like an alleyway with a sack full of cat. That'd be kind of fun actually. But typically private lending is just lending from an individual rather than a bank. And so a sophisticated, private lender will operate somewhat like a bank where they, you know, they kind of vet deals. They've vet you, they vet the process. Some even want like a loan application and stuff. Others are very much more relational.   I mean, your next private lender could be your rich uncle or something who really believes in you and wants you to succeed. So it kinda runs the gamut from usually it's, you know, older people who are using the retirement funds. Some people who came into some money one way or the other, it seems like two or three of my guys who I lend or who I borrow from. They all sold a business in their sixties and now have kind of more money than they know what to do with, they see a return of 12% PR and that's very exciting to them.   And so they will lend that to the right person. And so it's kind of, I wouldn't call it a beginner strategy at all, because usually you have to have a kind of a track record. You have to have a reputation for what you're doing for somebody who just is sitting on, you know, even if it's a million dollars, you know, that's two projects in Denver. And so they, you know, lending out their entire million dollars. It has to be to the right person, the right projects with the right track record so that they are secure that bill, you know, end up getting that back.   And so it's kind of private lending in a nutshell. And to your other question for kind of stabilizing an asset, typically we're, we're purchasing with private money, which is for us, it's a hundred percent loan and fix. And so we're, we're into the deal with no money and we go ahead and we get the property fixed up rented, and our next lender wants to see it for at least three months.   We're, we're, we're collecting rent. Everything is stable. Everything's looking good before we can transition that into kind of a, it's a refinance into either a portfolio or, or a conventional style loan. I prefer portfolio, cause it seems just a little easier, but then they, they close on it and they'll pay off the private lender. And so now instead of owing, you know, this individual money, now we own, now we owe this credit union or this bank money and, and pay them.   And it's a long-term note, whereas our short-term private money lender is only like a six month note. So now we have a 30 year note and a smaller payment, so we can actually cash flow.   Jesse (18m 29s): Nice. Yeah, yeah. Obviously the goal there, if we switched to sourcing deals, like we talked about at the outset, it's a, it's a challenging thing to do right now. So it was topical, I guess, that that was in new Orleans. That was your kind of discussion topic, maybe as a comparison, if, if there has been things that are different than when you were starting out, how you were sourcing deals, then as opposed to strategies you've, you've learned and are using now, how has that evolved?   And, and you know, what, what approach are you using given the fact that it just seems like there is so little supply out there.   Anson (19m 7s): Yeah. That evolution has been pretty huge. So like I S like I said earlier, starting off, we did a lot of, we just bought bank owned, foreclosures right off of MLS. And we got really good at that to the point where we also sold REO, but we would buy from other REO brokers. And so we kind of knew the inside process of how asset managers think what different banks did, what, when they did their price reductions, you know, could we get in one day before a price reduction and then get under that price reduction and lock up a property before everybody else saw it.   We got pretty good at that kind of stuff. Once the foreclosure crisis started resolving itself, bailouts and everything else, there was just less foreclosures coming. And I saw the writing on the wall when, on the REO sourcing side, it's kind of the, you know, the, the, the source of the river started drying up and we were both benefiting from that source of the river plus way downstream, when we would pick up deals. It's like, oh man, I kind of see the writing writing on the wall here.   We're not going to be able to find as many deals as we used to. And so at the same time, we were also doing some short sales and looking around there was still, you know, a huge, you know, huge chunk of people who were underwater on their mortgages. And so we just aggressively attacked short sales that were listed and short sales that weren't listed. So we were just going straight after foreclosures basically. And so for about a year or two, we did mainly short sales. Was it, we got really good at that as well of going from the wild west or short sales to when it kinda got standardized and institutionalized.   We saw, you know, everything in that whole window. And then, and then the same thing happened where I started seeing that the market was rising, the prices were rising and not everybody would be underwater forever. And so what do I do next? And from there, we went off market. We, we, we did a little bit more MLS deals we would find, but those really just started getting few and far between, and we needed a bigger source of deals we were doing mainly wholesaling right then.   And so the better source of deals was just to go directly to the seller. And so ever since probably 2014, 15 up until now has been all off market direct to seller. I haven't bought an MLS deal probably three or four years. They just, I don't know. It's just not, not scary   Jesse (21m 54s): Now. Yeah,   Anson (21m 56s): Exactly. So all, you know, basically all off market right now, just going directly to those sellers and seeing if we can help them.   Jesse (22m 4s): So on that, on that note, in terms of the approach that you use with, you know, is it the, of, in the vein of direct mailers, are you kind of going to the secretary of state? Are you going through different software? How are you, how are you reaching out to those? Those would be sellers.   Anson (22m 22s): Yeah. So our main, our main way to reach out and touch them is direct mail. We have just this year started adding in, or I shouldn't say just this year, it was probably 2019, just started stacking in more ways to reach sellers, kind of this, the same lists and in different ways. So if they did respond to the direct mail, we also called them. We also text them. We also emailed them if we could, you know, find them on Facebook, knock on their door, whatever it took to really get in front of the right sellers.   You know, there was a time where you can just send out postcards and, you know, get a 2% response rate, just pick from the best ones. But that just started kind of getting less and less as there was more competition. So now we're reaching out in multiple ways, but direct mail is still our number one.   Jesse (23m 16s): Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting because it comes, I guess, depending on who the sellers are. Like, for instance, if you, if you're really reaching out to predominantly mom and pop, or like you said, small, multi, multi Juarez, you know, I found that the responses are usually better. However, if there's that one layer of say a corporate structure, LLC, partnership, whatever that is, do you, is that also part of the pool that you reach out to? And I guess from there, if it is, you probably have to do that one extra step of, you know, who's the principal who's, you know, who's the signing officer.   Anson (23m 49s): Yep. Yeah. So in Colorado, our, our secretary of state is pretty transparent. So we can go on and search LLCs and find out who, you know, who's the owner where their register addresses all that stuff. So our, oh, I wish I had the number of, of LLCs that we've mailed to, but I have given that over to a VA to go ahead and look those up and just make sure that we're hitting the right people and getting in front of them instead of just setting, you know, XYZ LLC, you know, it's like Paul Jones or something.   So,   Jesse (24m 25s): Yeah, yeah. In terms of the, so for those that are just kind of getting into real estate in terms of finding off market deals, they're coming into an environment that, you know, we we've seen prior to supply constraints, a different approach. Whereas now, because there's so few real estate opportunities out there properties, they were coming into a market where they probably have to start with direct, direct to seller or trying to find off market deals. How would you go about telling somebody who's getting into the industry? How does start building that list?   Anson (24m 58s): I mean, even today, it sounds very, very old school, but I think that are driving for dollars lists are still some of our Mo you know, highest producing lists. And if you want to keep the cost down and you have more time than you have money, I would say, drive for dollars and then cold column, just, you know, skip, trace them or look them up on white pages.com. Yup. And then, you know, send out phone calls. You'll probably, you know, get 50 to a hundred driving for dollars leads a day.   And then, you know, cold column the same day or the day after you'll, you'll keep yourself busy for sure. But it, you know, bang for buck time for payoff, it's definitely the best use of your time to try to find deals.   Jesse (25m 48s): Yeah. A hundred percent, all it really takes is, you know, you do it for a week. If you can hit one, then you know, there's your, there's your week's work right there. Exactly.   Anson (25m 57s): And pretty good ROI.   Jesse (25m 59s): Yeah. A hundred percent. And in terms of your stock, you know, your stock mailer, is it typically, like you said, you know, Hey, you know, Hey Doug Smith and then w what's the typical pitch that you, that you guys employ.   Anson (26m 14s): Yeah. So we definitely try to speak, you know, the ethos or the, you know, the, the makeup of our direct mail is, you know, handcrafted and handwritten. So we want to make sure that we're, we're talking to them down at like a normal level of like, Hey, we're here to help. So it's like, you know, using names, using addresses, using, you know, subdivisions, if we really want to like, like, Hey, you know, Hey, Jesse, we're, you know, we're wondering if you wanted to sell 1, 2, 3 main street, if you've ever thought about selling hassle-free please give us a call.   You know, we don't have any commissions or inspections or appraisals, you know, call us for a no obligation fair offer. And that that's enough of the core of the message to get across of like, Hey, we're here to help. You know, sometimes we'll add in that we're local, you know, we're, we're, we're definitely, you know, not an eye buyer or somebody who's a Zillow or something coming in that we're here to work with them and we have, you know, multiple ways to help them.   So,   Jesse (27m 28s): Yeah. Fantastic. At the end of the day, it's really just getting that phone call. You're not expecting it to get the sale, which it's nice, but not expecting to get the sale on the first touchpoint.   Anson (27m 37s): Right. Yeah, exactly. It's definitely a long game of multiple touches and, and yeah. Building on each other. So,   Jesse (27m 47s): So handsome, we're in a crazy time right now, recording this, you know, coming into the end of, of 20, 21. I don't think anybody could have predicted the last year and a half. How has your business, or how do you see your business evolving as a result of kind of the environment that we've been in, if at all, and, and maybe just prospectively, where do you see opportunities, you know, coming in the new year?   Anson (28m 15s): Yeah. So we're going to continue doing what we're doing for this year, which is, you know, more out of state looking at a state for markets that are conducive to cash flow. Short term rental opportunities is, is pretty big focus right now as well. And then locally, we've been partnering more with other investors because we've had a lot of time spent on the other side, kind of looking at a state. And, and so, you know, looking forward to next year, you know, I think the market's going to just be doing more of the same, can't foresee anything crazy that's going to happen.   And so, you know, we're just kind of to focus on long-term projects and, and even if we're wrong, you know, we still have, long-term more passive, passive things going, so   Jesse (29m 12s): Right on. All right. And so we ask a four questions, every guest before we wrap up. So before I get there, I'm just curious, I've been trying to, you know, for the last month or two kind of taking a poll of, of different real estate professionals I talked to, and I'm just curious your thoughts on number one, inflation, and number two interest rates. And, and I'm not expecting you to have a crystal ball, but I just, I find it funny because, you know, you have asked people, you get four opinions on these topics, right?   Anson (29m 46s): Yeah. So inflation's obviously going to be an issue. I think that Brian, who's the economist who spoke at BiggerPockets convention, had a lot of really good things to say. And pretty much everything that I would kind of repeat of, you know, inflation's a problem. It's not going to be a problem today or next year, but in the next, you know, four years or so, it will probably pop and become an issue.   And as far as interest rates, it's like, I think that they just voted that they're not, they're not going to change at all. And so as long as interest rates stay down and buying, and money is easy, it's just gonna turn, turn the market and keep it going. So buyers will keep buying. Investors will keep investing money right now is probably the easiest thing to get, whether it's hard money or otherwise, and so easy money, hard deals.   So it's going to probably just keep fueling that and, and yeah, just, it, it's kinda hard to say, but I think Brian had a really good kind of outlook on it where, you know, 20, 24 or 2026 is kind of when things will start changing and creeping up a little bit on, on interest rates. And I, I don't know enough about it to disagree. So   Jesse (31m 13s): Yeah, we had a, we had Brian on the show, you can check that episode out. I think it was in the sixties, but he was, he was great if especially if you, if you geek out on, on economics, that's definitely the one that listened to. I love it. Okay. Sweet. If you're ready, we'll fire off these final four questions to ya.   Anson (31m 32s): All right. I'm ready. Right on.   Jesse (31m 34s): What's something, you know, now in your career Anson, whether that's in real estate or business that you wish you knew when you started out.   Anson (31m 43s): So I kind of, I definitely always traded just short-term money for, you know, not worrying about long-term things and, you know, it's like, oh, you're in your twenties. You know, you don't really care too much about it, but once you get up into your forties and you're kind of still doing the same thing, it's probably not the best idea. And so I would, I would go back and tell myself for sure, just like, Hey, keep like even a third of the amount of houses that you're doing, and then you won't have to work when you're 40.   So   Jesse (32m 17s): There you go. That's a, that's a good point. Okay. In, in terms of, for that person, that's getting into our industry, what do you tell them in terms of your view on mentorship?   Anson (32m 32s): Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I'm a big fan of mentors, whether it's kind of formal mentors and informal mentors, you know, people who were willing to help you up. And I would say, just find somebody who aligns with your values and then see how you can provide value to them so that they can help you get to where you want to go. And then once you're at a place where, you know, a few years along the line, I think that mentorship works both ways where you should have a hand up and a hand down.   So you're, you know, you'll graduate through mentors that you're working with and every step along the way, you should be helping bring people up as well. And that teaches you a lot of things too, as you're teaching and working through things with other investors as well. So you've kind of learned by teaching and then obviously you learn by learning from somebody who's where you want to be.   Jesse (33m 31s): Yeah. That's great. Great answer as well. Okay. In terms of, let's put a pin in rich dad, poor dad. So put that one aside, but what is a book that you find yourself just recommending over and over again?   Anson (33m 45s): Yeah. So my, that is, it was a book that I also give about the most as well. And it's obstacle is the way by Ryan holiday and it's a book on stoicism and it's, it's really helped me in my personal life and also through business as well. And so it's just an, and an outlook on life and on business and situations that I wasn't exposed to until I kind of started getting into it. And that book definitely hammered it home for me.   So   Jesse (34m 19s): That's cool. I don't think we've ever had that book recommended on the show, but I've, I've definitely had people say it's a, it's a killer book. Yep. Okay. Last question. First car, make and model.   Anson (34m 32s): I had a 1979 tan VW rabbit. That is   Jesse (34m 38s): Unreal.   Anson (34m 39s): Two door.   Jesse (34m 40s): Yeah. That's pretty good, man. Like 79. I just looking at you. I would've, I would've assumed it'd be the eighties or nineties, but that's, that's quite the car.   Anson (34m 50s): That's the same year I was born. It just happened to be, my dad's always worked on VWs my whole life. And so my step-mom drove like a Cabriolet and my dad's had like dozens and dozens of bugs and, and yeah, when it came time to me, for me to start driving, you know, he bought this 79 tan rabbit that he's like, this is yours. If you get your grades up. And it took me a little while, but finally got my grades up enough to, to drive it. So   Jesse (35m 20s): I love how they're bringing back the seventies and eighties, the retro stitching for a, for a lot of their, their new models. So it got kind of that vintage look.   Anson (35m 29s): I'd love to see it. I'd love to see a new rabbit. Yeah.   Jesse (35m 32s): Oh yeah. Bring it back. Awesome. All right. Answered for those of you that want to connect or reach out or have any questions. I know you're doing work with bigger pockets. Maybe you could tell, tell listeners where they can go on the Google machine.   Anson (35m 47s): Yeah. If you go to the Google machine and if you want to connect with me bigger pockets, this is probably the easiest way to do it. It's just, if you just search my name on the site, you'll find my, my, my profile. Think I'm the only answer on the young, on there still. So that's good. Yeah. And then yeah, if you want to find me on Instagram at young Anson, and if you want to find me on YouTube, I do do videos for bigger pockets and starting to do more videos for myself as well. And so you can find me there.   Jesse (36m 16s): My guest today has been aunts and young aunts and thanks for being part of working capital.   Anson (36m 21s): Thanks, Jesse. Thanks so much.   Jesse (36m 31s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Right? Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica galleon. You're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is aunts and young Anson is a real estate agent and investor with hundreds of transactions completed in each category, real estate Anson, and his team specialize in marketing directly to sellers for off-market deals, using many methods that can be found in his book, finding and funding great deals when not working ants and can be found exploring the wilds of Colorado with his family and tending loud rock concerts.   And I can see you got a twig behind you there, and son, how you doing?   Anson (54s): I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me, Jesse.   Jesse (56s): Yeah, my pleasure having you on, what do you got there? Is that a base? It's hard to tell because   Anson (1m 1s): That one's a five string bass.   Jesse (1m 4s): I like it. Fantastic, man. Well, thanks for coming on. We were just chatting before the show, like a few of the most recent guests you were speaking at BP con this year, what was, what was your topic?   Anson (1m 17s): So my topic this year was finding the deals in any market and it focused on kind of out of state investing or long distance real estate investing, building a team, you know, how basically how to go ahead and find those deals, whether it's networking or off market. And, and yeah, that's seems to be a hot topic. Everybody's market is too expensive. So they're looking at other markets and I figured I'd hit on that since that's what I'm doing too. So   Jesse (1m 47s): Yeah, absolutely. It's certainly topical right now. It's we kind of joke around about the inverse relationship between, you know, the, the lower interest rates are, the cheaper money is the harder it is to find deals.   Anson (1m 59s): Oh yeah, for   Jesse (1m 60s): Sure. So in terms of a little bit of your background for listeners that aren't familiar with you, maybe you could kind of take us back to how you got into real estate. I know you just mentioned on the outset, you're also an agent. Maybe you could take us back to the beginning of how that journey started.   Anson (2m 17s): Yeah, sure. So back in 2003 or so I was working in it, I got laid off like everybody did, it feels like kind of boat, post.com, bubble burst. And so I was just looking around of what to do next. Do I go back into it? Do I double down in that arena or do I do something else? And at the same time, my wife and I were going to move down to Phoenix from Denver to be closer to family, my brother had just moved there.   They were having their first kid. So I was like, you know what? I don't have a corporate job anymore. I could kind of move wherever I want. And right before I left a friend of mine handed me rich dad, poor dad, which is, I think just the basic origin story of all real estate investors these days. But, but literally read that book on the way down to Arizona and changed my entire mindset about what I could do, what I should do and why going back into a corporate environment, probably wasn't the best idea.   And so landed in Phoenix and decided new city, a new me, and kind of jumped in and tried to learn as much as I could about anything that I could about real estate. And at the same time I was bartending. And so nights were spent working and days were spent trying to figure out real estate. So that's kind of a, that's kind of where I got started.   Jesse (3m 48s): That's great. So in terms of kind of getting into that mindset, I mean, not, not a dissimilar from a lot of people that come on the podcast or just talking in general, rich dad, poor dad just seems to be a cornerstone for a lot of, at least the beginning of real estate education, because I think ultimately the quadrants of that book for, you know, for anybody that hasn't read it, you definitely have to go check that book by Robert Kiyosaki. But I think it is ultimately when you get to that fourth quadrant where it's passive or, you know, quotations passive investments, I think real estate is just, it kind of lends itself to that, to that type of investment or that type of income.   Anson (4m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. And I had no idea that any of that existed, I mean, the guy who gave me the book, Paul, we were, I remember talking in this parking lot late at night and, and, and, and I couldn't even wrap my brain around getting a second mortgage. Like you have one mortgage who's going to give you money for a second house. You know, like that, that's how small my mindset was until that book helped me unlock and unpack what's possible.   So it, there's a reason why it's so such an origin story for many of us is because we weren't really taught that. And, and then this, this book just showed us kind of a different way of how things could work. Yeah,   Jesse (5m 10s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's funny cause you know, that book, it really, it hits people in totally different, different jobs and different times in their life. And it still seems to be one of the ones that keeps coming up. So you, you read rich dad, poor, poor dad, you're you get laid off from your job where once, once that clicks for you and that light bulb goes off, what was, what was your process after that?   Anson (5m 35s): So I'm like, like many people starting off. I had no clue what I was doing. So I basically attended every single meetup that I could find from kind of Rhea meetups, real estate investment associations, to like cashflow one-on-one games. So, you know, tied in with the, the rich poor dad, it's basically a board game that people get together and play that kind of go through the principles of financial freedom and stuff.   And so anywhere that I could latch on to people who were doing real estate, I was there and I, I kind of made that my full-time job of, of doing that I've formed relationships. And in that I just started doing, trying to provide as much value as possible. So I'd go do all kinds of odds and end tasks for them for a couple of investors and a couple of agents. And in return, you know, all I asked for was just information. Like I would go run contracts, you know, for a long time for an agent.   And then I would ask for, Hey, can you teach me how to value properties on ML MLS? And so trying to provide that value first and then asking for something in return later on. And so I, I ran contracts, I punched signs in yards. I knocked on doors for a foreclosure investor. Feel like I did all these different things to try to learn as much as possible. And about after nine months to a year, one of the agents reciprocated with a deal.   And she was like, Hey, one of my clients has a property that they want to sell. I think that it would be great for you guys kind of sent over the numbers, helped me run through it and ended up to be our first deal. And it was a live in flip that we spent the next year fixing up and, and, you know, figuring out what's next. But we, we sold it after a year and ended up moving back to Denver. And so it was perfect timing because that was right at the end of 2005. And I think the Phoenix market crashed the next week.   So, so we got out just in time, but I learned a lot on that first deal and then went ahead and just appended and moved markets, which felt like starting over that's that's, that's kinda how that deal went. So   Jesse (7m 58s): Kind of started on that deal. Similar to a lot of individuals were, I guess, somewhat of a, you know, some people call it house hacking where you were living in at the time, but also renting out a, would that be fair to say it was kind of that, that type of arrangement for the first one?   Anson (8m 13s): No, we did. We did kind of a, it needed a lot of work. And so we just decided to move in and fix it while we were living there. We were fixing up stuff, you know, as time and money permitted and by the end of it, you know, it was fixed up and ready to go. And actually my agent w I, I had sent her an email, you know, we had gone to Vegas for our anniversary decided right then that we were kind of just done with Phoenix.   I sent her an email saying, Hey, I think we're going to sell. And she's like, I'll buy it. Like my parents will buy this. Like, she had very much faith that the market was going to keep and she was a little bit wrong on that, but that's okay. Yeah. So she gave us a really good price on it. We ended up making, I think $60,000 on it after a year, which isn't too bad and, you know, had some money to go back to Denver and continue the journey   Jesse (9m 11s): Right on. So was the journey continuing on that kind of operational level where it was value add deals or did you, did you pivot?   Anson (9m 22s): I think I, yeah, it was definitely a value add deals. When I got back, I felt like it was starting over because I didn't have a lot of real estate contacts I didn't have, I didn't know the market. And so, no, I kind of just went back to basics. I started working with investors and agents. I actually got hired on to a real estate agent team and was doing broker price opinions for banks. And right then I just, I figured out this whole thing of bank owned foreclosures and that this could be, you know, a really big thing.   And so, so from then on, probably for the next two years, pretty much everything that I bought was a bank owned foreclosure. So they were all distressed value, add properties that, that had almost no emotion into them because the banks don't care if you low ball them, they just care if it meets their kind of pricing matrix. So that was a fun time to be in real estate for sure. But I got my license maybe a year after I moved back and just kind of did both. I was an agent investor just kind of juggling both things.   Hm.   Jesse (10m 29s): So in terms of the kind of becoming an agent, because you get lots of people that are like, should I get my license as an investor, if you're going to make that switch, did you find it was something that was kind of critical or a nice to have type of type of thing where you still had to develop relationships with host of different agents?   Anson (10m 50s): Yeah. I found it to be absolutely critical to all the real estate that I was doing. Just, just from a, you know, obviously if I'm buying Oreos and my entire existence of finding deals is on MLS. I don't want to be one step removed from that process. I want to be, you know, like a direct actor in that process. And so right in front of MLS on a daily basis to try to find, you know, the deals that I'm looking for, rather than relying on an agent to send them to me, or, you know, go around the back door and give me their log-in or something like that, I could shoot off offers immediately, you know, set showings, do the things that I needed to do to go lock up these deals.   And so for me, it was absolutely pivotal   Jesse (11m 41s): In terms of kind of where you've developed your business today. So you kind of, you go through this process, there's the light bulb moment. You, you see that it's, there's proof of concept when you, you know, in one year you make 60 grand catch us up to today. What, where are you focusing? Not on, not just from a, from a geographical standpoint, but even from a type of asset or type of real estate that maybe you focus on or areas that you focus on.   Anson (12m 7s): Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years between wholesales fix and flip. What I'm pivoting towards this year is more longterm buy and hold properties, single family, a small multifamily, those kinds of properties. And so that's a little bit different for me. I'm, I'm used to doing this transactional turn and burn, and now I'm trying to slow down and think for the longterm so that I can, you know, actually have something to show for my effort rather than just, you know, larger pay check, so to speak.   And so, so Ben pivoting in that direction as, as a business and Ben geographically in three different markets this year, just testing things out and getting the ball rolling on long-term cashflow. So that's kind of where we're at.   Jesse (13m 3s): So answered for the actual capital raising side of the business for you or where you source capital has that changed over the, the last few years? And if so, how, how has that evolved for, for yourself?   Anson (13m 16s): It hasn't changed too much once I kind of discovered private money lending before the sec kind of changed their rules, we would kind of just cold call for private lenders, developed relationships with them, had a good track record over time. And so after a while, you know, we would get referred to their friends who were looking to, you know, make, you know, a 10 to 14% return on their investment. And, and so, so yeah, so it hasn't changed too much because we're still using short-term even on these long-term projects we're using short-term funds to, to acquire them and then refinance it now to a more portfolio or, or bank loan style financing.   So I guess that side's new, but when we go into purchase, we're still using like our same private money lenders. They know that they're going to hang on for, you know, three to six months until we refinance out, but that's not too different from a flip where we would hold onto it for three to six months and they would get paid out at the end of that. So, so the, you know, the initial buy is the same. It's just that long-term piece of now it's going to convert into something long-term. So can you,   Jesse (14m 34s): You talked to, to that a little bit for listeners, you know, for that type of approach where you are, you know, getting short term finance, when you have a project going on and then stabilizing after that, maybe you could to kind of run through how that works. And, and, you know, on top of that private lending, I think is a bit of a black box for a lot of people. So, you know, maybe, maybe get your thoughts on that as well.   Anson (14m 59s): What do you mean by black box?   Jesse (15m 0s): Well, I, I feel that a lot of people that aren't in our industry, they hear private money and it sounds like they're meeting somebody in an alleyway and they're handing them a bag of cash. So I think, I think from like, I think for a lot of people, they don't realize how many private lenders there are out there, how many more options you have than just walking up to the bank that you've known for years, or are you, you know, you know, the brand,   Anson (15m 25s): Right? Yeah. So in, you know, I wish it was like an alleyway with a sack full of cat. That'd be kind of fun actually. But typically private lending is just lending from an individual rather than a bank. And so a sophisticated, private lender will operate somewhat like a bank where they, you know, they kind of vet deals. They've vet you, they vet the process. Some even want like a loan application and stuff. Others are very much more relational.   I mean, your next private lender could be your rich uncle or something who really believes in you and wants you to succeed. So it kinda runs the gamut from usually it's, you know, older people who are using the retirement funds. Some people who came into some money one way or the other, it seems like two or three of my guys who I lend or who I borrow from. They all sold a business in their sixties and now have kind of more money than they know what to do with, they see a return of 12% PR and that's very exciting to them.   And so they will lend that to the right person. And so it's kind of, I wouldn't call it a beginner strategy at all, because usually you have to have a kind of a track record. You have to have a reputation for what you're doing for somebody who just is sitting on, you know, even if it's a million dollars, you know, that's two projects in Denver. And so they, you know, lending out their entire million dollars. It has to be to the right person, the right projects with the right track record so that they are secure that bill, you know, end up getting that back.   And so it's kind of private lending in a nutshell. And to your other question for kind of stabilizing an asset, typically we're, we're purchasing with private money, which is for us, it's a hundred percent loan and fix. And so we're, we're into the deal with no money and we go ahead and we get the property fixed up rented, and our next lender wants to see it for at least three months.   We're, we're, we're collecting rent. Everything is stable. Everything's looking good before we can transition that into kind of a, it's a refinance into either a portfolio or, or a conventional style loan. I prefer portfolio, cause it seems just a little easier, but then they, they close on it and they'll pay off the private lender. And so now instead of owing, you know, this individual money, now we own, now we owe this credit union or this bank money and, and pay them.   And it's a long-term note, whereas our short-term private money lender is only like a six month note. So now we have a 30 year note and a smaller payment, so we can actually cash flow.   Jesse (18m 29s): Nice. Yeah, yeah. Obviously the goal there, if we switched to sourcing deals, like we talked about at the outset, it's a, it's a challenging thing to do right now. So it was topical, I guess, that that was in new Orleans. That was your kind of discussion topic, maybe as a comparison, if, if there has been things that are different than when you were starting out, how you were sourcing deals, then as opposed to strategies you've, you've learned and are using now, how has that evolved?   And, and you know, what, what approach are you using given the fact that it just seems like there is so little supply out there.   Anson (19m 7s): Yeah. That evolution has been pretty huge. So like I S like I said earlier, starting off, we did a lot of, we just bought bank owned, foreclosures right off of MLS. And we got really good at that to the point where we also sold REO, but we would buy from other REO brokers. And so we kind of knew the inside process of how asset managers think what different banks did, what, when they did their price reductions, you know, could we get in one day before a price reduction and then get under that price reduction and lock up a property before everybody else saw it.   We got pretty good at that kind of stuff. Once the foreclosure crisis started resolving itself, bailouts and everything else, there was just less foreclosures coming. And I saw the writing on the wall when, on the REO sourcing side, it's kind of the, you know, the, the, the source of the river started drying up and we were both benefiting from that source of the river plus way downstream, when we would pick up deals. It's like, oh man, I kind of see the writing writing on the wall here.   We're not going to be able to find as many deals as we used to. And so at the same time, we were also doing some short sales and looking around there was still, you know, a huge, you know, huge chunk of people who were underwater on their mortgages. And so we just aggressively attacked short sales that were listed and short sales that weren't listed. So we were just going straight after foreclosures basically. And so for about a year or two, we did mainly short sales. Was it, we got really good at that as well of going from the wild west or short sales to when it kinda got standardized and institutionalized.   We saw, you know, everything in that whole window. And then, and then the same thing happened where I started seeing that the market was rising, the prices were rising and not everybody would be underwater forever. And so what do I do next? And from there, we went off market. We, we, we did a little bit more MLS deals we would find, but those really just started getting few and far between, and we needed a bigger source of deals we were doing mainly wholesaling right then.   And so the better source of deals was just to go directly to the seller. And so ever since probably 2014, 15 up until now has been all off market direct to seller. I haven't bought an MLS deal probably three or four years. They just, I don't know. It's just not, not scary   Jesse (21m 54s): Now. Yeah,   Anson (21m 56s): Exactly. So all, you know, basically all off market right now, just going directly to those sellers and seeing if we can help them.   Jesse (22m 4s): So on that, on that note, in terms of the approach that you use with, you know, is it the, of, in the vein of direct mailers, are you kind of going to the secretary of state? Are you going through different software? How are you, how are you reaching out to those? Those would be sellers.   Anson (22m 22s): Yeah. So our main, our main way to reach out and touch them is direct mail. We have just this year started adding in, or I shouldn't say just this year, it was probably 2019, just started stacking in more ways to reach sellers, kind of this, the same lists and in different ways. So if they did respond to the direct mail, we also called them. We also text them. We also emailed them if we could, you know, find them on Facebook, knock on their door, whatever it took to really get in front of the right sellers.   You know, there was a time where you can just send out postcards and, you know, get a 2% response rate, just pick from the best ones. But that just started kind of getting less and less as there was more competition. So now we're reaching out in multiple ways, but direct mail is still our number one.   Jesse (23m 16s): Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting because it comes, I guess, depending on who the sellers are. Like, for instance, if you, if you're really reaching out to predominantly mom and pop, or like you said, small, multi, multi Juarez, you know, I found that the responses are usually better. However, if there's that one layer of say a corporate structure, LLC, partnership, whatever that is, do you, is that also part of the pool that you reach out to? And I guess from there, if it is, you probably have to do that one extra step of, you know, who's the principal who's, you know, who's the signing officer.   Anson (23m 49s): Yep. Yeah. So in Colorado, our, our secretary of state is pretty transparent. So we can go on and search LLCs and find out who, you know, who's the owner where their register addresses all that stuff. So our, oh, I wish I had the number of, of LLCs that we've mailed to, but I have given that over to a VA to go ahead and look those up and just make sure that we're hitting the right people and getting in front of them instead of just setting, you know, XYZ LLC, you know, it's like Paul Jones or something.   So,   Jesse (24m 25s): Yeah, yeah. In terms of the, so for those that are just kind of getting into real estate in terms of finding off market deals, they're coming into an environment that, you know, we we've seen prior to supply constraints, a different approach. Whereas now, because there's so few real estate opportunities out there properties, they were coming into a market where they probably have to start with direct, direct to seller or trying to find off market deals. How would you go about telling somebody who's getting into the industry? How does start building that list?   Anson (24m 58s): I mean, even today, it sounds very, very old school, but I think that are driving for dollars lists are still some of our Mo you know, highest producing lists. And if you want to keep the cost down and you have more time than you have money, I would say, drive for dollars and then cold column, just, you know, skip, trace them or look them up on white pages.com. Yup. And then, you know, send out phone calls. You'll probably, you know, get 50 to a hundred driving for dollars leads a day.   And then, you know, cold column the same day or the day after you'll, you'll keep yourself busy for sure. But it, you know, bang for buck time for payoff, it's definitely the best use of your time to try to find deals.   Jesse (25m 48s): Yeah. A hundred percent, all it really takes is, you know, you do it for a week. If you can hit one, then you know, there's your, there's your week's work right there. Exactly.   Anson (25m 57s): And pretty good ROI.   Jesse (25m 59s): Yeah. A hundred percent. And in terms of your stock, you know, your stock mailer, is it typically, like you said, you know, Hey, you know, Hey Doug Smith and then w what's the typical pitch that you, that you guys employ.   Anson (26m 14s): Yeah. So we definitely try to speak, you know, the ethos or the, you know, the, the makeup of our direct mail is, you know, handcrafted and handwritten. So we want to make sure that we're, we're talking to them down at like a normal level of like, Hey, we're here to help. So it's like, you know, using names, using addresses, using, you know, subdivisions, if we really want to like, like, Hey, you know, Hey, Jesse, we're, you know, we're wondering if you wanted to sell 1, 2, 3 main street, if you've ever thought about selling hassle-free please give us a call.   You know, we don't have any commissions or inspections or appraisals, you know, call us for a no obligation fair offer. And that that's enough of the core of the message to get across of like, Hey, we're here to help. You know, sometimes we'll add in that we're local, you know, we're, we're, we're definitely, you know, not an eye buyer or somebody who's a Zillow or something coming in that we're here to work with them and we have, you know, multiple ways to help them.   So,   Jesse (27m 28s): Yeah. Fantastic. At the end of the day, it's really just getting that phone call. You're not expecting it to get the sale, which it's nice, but not expecting to get the sale on the first touchpoint.   Anson (27m 37s): Right. Yeah, exactly. It's definitely a long game of multiple touches and, and yeah. Building on each other. So,   Jesse (27m 47s): So handsome, we're in a crazy time right now, recording this, you know, coming into the end of, of 20, 21. I don't think anybody could have predicted the last year and a half. How has your business, or how do you see your business evolving as a result of kind of the environment that we've been in, if at all, and, and maybe just prospectively, where do you see opportunities, you know, coming in the new year?   Anson (28m 15s): Yeah. So we're going to continue doing what we're doing for this year, which is, you know, more out of state looking at a state for markets that are conducive to cash flow. Short term rental opportunities is, is pretty big focus right now as well. And then locally, we've been partnering more with other investors because we've had a lot of time spent on the other side, kind of looking at a state. And, and so, you know, looking forward to next year, you know, I think the market's going to just be doing more of the same, can't foresee anything crazy that's going to happen.   And so, you know, we're just kind of to focus on long-term projects and, and even if we're wrong, you know, we still have, long-term more passive, passive things going, so   Jesse (29m 12s): Right on. All right. And so we ask a four questions, every guest before we wrap up. So before I get there, I'm just curious, I've been trying to, you know, for the last month or two kind of taking a poll of, of different real estate professionals I talked to, and I'm just curious your thoughts on number one, inflation, and number two interest rates. And, and I'm not expecting you to have a crystal ball, but I just, I find it funny because, you know, you have asked people, you get four opinions on these topics, right?   Anson (29m 46s): Yeah. So inflation's obviously going to be an issue. I think that Brian, who's the economist who spoke at BiggerPockets convention, had a lot of really good things to say. And pretty much everything that I would kind of repeat of, you know, inflation's a problem. It's not going to be a problem today or next year, but in the next, you know, four years or so, it will probably pop and become an issue.   And as far as interest rates, it's like, I think that they just voted that they're not, they're not going to change at all. And so as long as interest rates stay down and buying, and money is easy, it's just gonna turn, turn the market and keep it going. So buyers will keep buying. Investors will keep investing money right now is probably the easiest thing to get, whether it's hard money or otherwise, and so easy money, hard deals.   So it's going to probably just keep fueling that and, and yeah, just, it, it's kinda hard to say, but I think Brian had a really good kind of outlook on it where, you know, 20, 24 or 2026 is kind of when things will start changing and creeping up a little bit on, on interest rates. And I, I don't know enough about it to disagree. So   Jesse (31m 13s): Yeah, we had a, we had Brian on the show, you can check that episode out. I think it was in the sixties, but he was, he was great if especially if you, if you geek out on, on economics, that's definitely the one that listened to. I love it. Okay. Sweet. If you're ready, we'll fire off these final four questions to ya.   Anson (31m 32s): All right. I'm ready. Right on.   Jesse (31m 34s): What's something, you know, now in your career Anson, whether that's in

Baarli og Benjamin går i terapi
Terapeut Jesper Jenset om at Benjamin liker best å feste uten Niklas

Baarli og Benjamin går i terapi

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 21, 2021 36:25


Popstjerne og hunk Jesper Jenset er ukens terapeut når Benjamin må forsvare seg etter en klønete kommentar i vennemiddag. Han har nemlig sagt at han trives bedre på byen uten sin ektemann. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
House Hacking Strategy with Craig Curelop | EP79

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 17, 2021 39:53


Craig Curelop is a Real Estate Agent and Investor. He is an Author of The House Hacking Strategy: How to Use Your Home to Achieve Financial Independence and Co-host of FI Team podcast. In this episode we talked about: - Craig's Bio & Background - House Hacking Strategy - Expansion of Craig's Real Estate Portfolio since 2017 - Working at BiggerPockets  - Real Estate Investing Strategies  - Writing a Real estate Book - Sourcing Deals - View On Current Market Environment - Short Term Rental Market Outlook - Financing Deals - The Advice to People who Consider Making a Career in Real Estate - Building a Team  - Mentorship, Resources and Lessons learned Useful links: https://thefiteam.podbean.com https://www.instagram.com/thefiguy/?hl=en Transcriptions:  Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper galley and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is Craig . Craig is a real estate agent and investor. He is author of the host hacking strategy and co-host of FII team podcast, Craig, how's it going,   Craig (37s): Jesse? So good to be here today. I'm doing great. How   Jesse (40s): Are you? I'm doing awesome, man. I can't complain we're on the tail tail end or just, just pass Halloween. So I, for those that can't see us right now, we've got a couple of mustache here, but I feel like yours is for a Movember   Craig (53s): Mine's is just for life and his life. The lady, the lady loves the mustache, so we   Jesse (58s): Keep it. That's amazing. So it's just a lifestyle choice.   Craig (1m 1s): It's a lifestyle choice. Yeah, man. It's been like a year. I think it's, I'm almost, I'm approaching my one year mustache anniversary, so I love it. There should be a, there should be a celebration for that.   Jesse (1m 10s): Oh, I said we were just chatting. I have mine on, I meant to shave it off. I was afraid of mercury for Halloween and now I, and now we're in November, so I don't know what to do, dude. You   Craig (1m 18s): Look good. You should keep it.   Jesse (1m 21s): I appreciate it, man. Are you joining us today from, from Denver?   Craig (1m 25s): Yeah, I am here in Denver. Yeah. Been here four and a half years.   Jesse (1m 30s): Sweet. Well, thanks. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it. I think we'll have a great episode here. Talk a little bit about your background in real estate and love to get into house hacking and the book. But before we do, maybe what we could do is talk a little bit about how you got into real estate and bring us up to speed of what you're doing these days.   Craig (1m 52s): Yeah. So I got into real estate because a lot of people like a lot of people, I hated my job. And so I was actually working like a venture capital type role in Silicon valley, which sounds super sexy and super cool. And I was hanging out with mark, like I was hanging out with mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and all that, but that wasn't, that's not really the case. Right. I'm actually just like buried in spreadsheets, working hundreds of hours a week is what it felt like. And really just getting paid like an abysmal amount on an hourly rate. And I just kinda came to this conclusion that there's no way I wanted to do this for the rest of my life and what, like, what's the way to out.   What's an early way to retire. How do I achieve financial independence? And that's what kind of real estate came to mind through a lot of iterations I went through, I tried to do start my own startups, which was just horrible, horrible stuff. And then I was like, I don't need to be mark Zuckerberg or Steve jobs or anything like that. Right. I can just be a real estate investor. And so I found bigger pockets pretty quickly after this deciding I wanted to get into real estate just was absorbing absorb, absorb information for about six months. And then I was like, okay, I got to get out of Silicon valley. Cause I just can't afford anything here.   It doesn't seem like this whole house hacking thing really works in Silicon valley. So I actually moved to Denver, got a job at bigger pockets, which was like a dream come true. Started surrounding myself with real estate investors and people that were doing things that I wanted to do. And, you know, got my first property in that was April, 2017 or actually started June, 2017. I got my first property   Jesse (3m 21s): Right on. And that first property was that a, was that a house hacking proper property. And, and I guess before you answer that, maybe for listeners just to update people that don't know how sacking would, is it?   Craig (3m 33s): Yeah. So how's hacking is the idea that you buy a one to four unit property with a low percent down, typically three to 5% down. You have to live in it for a year. So if it's a single family house, you're living in a room, if it's a two to four unit, you're living in a unit and you rent out the parts that you're not living in, so that the rent covers your mortgage and you're able to live for free or at least drastically reduce your housing expense. And because your housing expenses probably your largest expense, you're actually able to save a lot more money. So you can go ahead and buy the next investment.   And so that's what I did on that first property. I purchased a duplex. This was before anybody really knew about the rent by the room strategies before that was popular. So the only way to house at this time in my head was to buy a duplex live in one side, rent out the other. So it was an uptown duplex. I lived in the bottom, rented out the top and I wasn't quite covered my mortgage. And I was like determined to cover my mortgage. It would have been a great house either way, but I was determined to cover my mortgage. So I Airbnb it out my bedroom and put up this like cardboard box room divider thing, slept on a futon and made that where I slept for one year.   And that was my 24 year old hustle self.   Jesse (4m 47s): So that, that is a pure house hack right there. So in terms of the, the uptown, was it already, was it already converted to the ability to have a walkout? What did that?   Craig (4m 58s): Yeah, it was totally turnkey. And so with house hacking, I firmly believe, and I stand by this. I was like this to the grave. Is that a turnkey property? That in by Turkey, I just mean the rehab is totally completed for you is much better than doing a rehab when you're doing the house. Heck because with house hacking, right, the, the magic is buying one every single year on the year and your year does not start until you close on that first property. And so let's say you close today's November 1st, let's say close today, November 1st.   I can't buy another one until November 1st of next year, but if I'm doing a rehab, that means I am spending more money. I am not getting money from my tenants. And that may push me back if I have to save another 20 or 30 grand to get the house hack on November 1st. So who cares if I have an extra 30,000 of equity in my house, which I can't use, I need 30,000 in my pocket, which I can go buy the next house for.   Jesse (5m 52s): And the one year is that, is that a financing thing? Is that just a strategic thing?   Craig (5m 57s): Yeah, that's a financing thing. So in order to get those low down payment loans, the three to 5%   Jesse (6m 1s): Down the bank says, you need to live there for at least one year. So yeah. Yeah. I find, I find too, there's a, depending on kind of the weather American Canadian, depending on which state you're in, I know that the ability to move in or displace a tenant oftentimes has a one-year horizon on it that they want you living there for one year. But to your point, yeah. In terms of finance, I think most areas you're going to get that lower financing. When you can say that you're personally moving into the, to the property in terms of the, so, so you start with, you start with that property, how, and that was a 2017, you   Craig (6m 37s): Said 2017.   Jesse (6m 38s): So from 2017 to where we're at right now, a couple of things have changed in the market. You know, some minor things in terms of how you kind of grew the portfolio. If you have from then to now, what does that look like?   Craig (6m 52s): Yeah. So the growth at first, it's really slow because you just don't have a lot of money, right? Like, you know, I remember on that first one, I pretty much depleted almost my entire savings and maybe had like 10 grand left and I needed to save up another 20 or so grand and get the next house hack. And you know, at that time I was maybe saving $2,000 a month. So it was like gonna take me probably a whole year to save up for the next house. Heck. So what I was doing, you know, I call it the lull period in between house hacks where there's really not much you can do. I mean, if you want to be a real estate hustler and start wholesaling and flipping, you could get into that, but I wasn't really interested in those things.   So I just doubled down at my work. I was working at BiggerPockets at the time, doubled down on my work there. I actually asked Scott who Scott trench to see yogurt buckets, basically, how can I make more money here? And I was able to, he actually gave me an opportunity and we created a pathway together to where I could make more money at my, at my W2 job. I was doing Airbnb arbitrage. I was throwing out my car. I was basically just figuring out any possible way that I can make some more money because I want to hit financial independence as early as possible, like so badly because I hated that feeling of being stuck.   Jesse (8m 4s): Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's looking for different or different streams of income. And for those that don't know, like Turo Turo is great. It's a, it's basically an Airbnb for your card and I'm pretty sure they're in every major market, but so it sounds like, it sounds like for you, it wasn't so much the flipping and the fact that you're going to run a business, you wanted more so passive income and, and longer term, longer term growth.   Craig (8m 25s): That's right. Yeah. I was, I mean, maybe I was scared honestly. Like I didn't want to handle hard money. I was in Denver. Right. So buying a house for 400 grand hard money on that, it's going to be like 50 grand. And I was like only about 20 grand. Right. And then you still got to put 20% down. So it became such a high effort thing that like, I wouldn't be able to do that and have my W2 job. And I really loved my W2 job at the time. Like I was hanging out at BiggerPockets, we were talking real estate network was growing. I had a lot of opportunity at BiggerPockets.   So I was like, just, that is my number one focus. So   Jesse (8m 59s): At the time, what were you doing at BiggerPockets?   Craig (9m 2s): So I was their finance guy. So I say the finance guy, because I was the only person on the finance team at the time. And so basically like doing all their books, running the numbers, making reports for management and stuff to look at. So I, at one point I knew pretty much every number that BiggerPockets had, but unfortunately I don't have that anymore. So my numbers are probably three years expired.   Jesse (9m 26s): Okay. Fair enough. And you've moved at sounds like you've moved from BiggerPockets to another W2 job or are you investing full time?   Craig (9m 35s): No, so yeah, I knew that BiggerPockets is going to be my last w two jobs. And so my, yeah, so I figured pockets. I basically had done three house hacks. So over the course of about three years, I did three house hacks and I felt like I was financially independent, but I wasn't sure. And so the way I test it was I took a zero paycheck and maxed out my 401k. So like my entire paycheck for three months was going to my 401k and I figured, Hey, if at the end of three months, my checking account is higher. I'm financially free.   And if not, well, then I'm pretty darn close. And I just, I just maxed out my 401k. And so lo and behold, it was a lot bigger and I was like, I can, I think I can make it on my own. And so pretty much a month after that, at the end of January of 2020, I quit BiggerPockets and went full-time as a real estate agent, helping people, coach guide and mentor people, helping coach guide and mentor those who want to house hack.   Jesse (10m 32s): Fair enough. So in terms of the, the host hacking itself, so you, you move on to that anniversary, you move in purchasing another property. How sack of that property, what are you doing with the former property in terms of whether you're selling refinancing? What does that look like?   Craig (10m 46s): I don't do anything. I just move out and I put someone else in my place. So just rent it out. I did refinance my first two properties because interest rates were so low this past year in 2021. And so it made a lot of sense. I think I reduced my monthly payment by like, like a total of a thousand dollars over the course of two properties. So easy way to boost your cashflow. And so, so yeah,   Jesse (11m 9s): Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But in terms of the, cause the Denver market, it's not the cheapest market in the world. So in terms of you were still able to cashflow, even when you're, you're moving out of these properties with, with the down payment as low as it was.   Craig (11m 24s): Oh yeah. So on that first property, my, my mortgage payment before I refinanced was 22, 2300, I was getting 1650 for the upstairs and 1300 for the downstairs. So my rent was 29 50 and my mortgage payment was about 2300. So six 50 over the mortgage, of course there's reserves and all that kind of stuff, but it was a newer property. So there wasn't a whole lot of maintenance and stuff. It wasn't a great location, so not a whole lot of vacancy. And you know, maybe you put reserves for two or $300 a month and it's still cashflows $300.   And it's in a great area. It's appreciated like probably 200 over 200 grand now in just a few years. So like great property now, since I've refinanced it and rents have gone up this year in 2021, you know, it's, I think I'm making a little over $3,000 on the rent and my mortgage payment is only like 1700 or maybe 1800. And so, you know, now it's closer to a thousand dollars of cashflow on the property and then yeah, same, same thing, same thing as it goes like each one, probably each property that I have in Denver cashflows about a thousand dollars a month.   Jesse (12m 33s): That's great. So being the numbers guy, when you look at these properties specifically on the host hacking side of things, is there an approach that you take that might differ from, from other investors or other investments?   Craig (12m 46s): Yeah. So when you're house hacking, you want to fit, you want to have multiple strategies that you can do, or at least I like having multiple strategies. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you've got a duplex, can you rent it out? Each unit like traditionally and still cashflow, it may not be your best cashflow, but can you still do it? Can you Airbnb it? Can you rent it by the room? How does the layout work? Can you, you know, in a single family house, can you split the upstairs and the downstairs or, you know, the left side from the right side and make two different units out of it. And so properties like that are the ones that we really like.   I pretty much in Denver now, I pretty much only buy single family houses that we could easily convert it to duplexes just based on the layout. And that way, you know, you're getting the house at a single family price in a single family type neighborhood. He renting it out as two separate units that are actually would get you higher rent than you would have to duplex because it's in a nicer area, it's a nicer house. And so the numbers work really well in places like,   Jesse (13m 41s): Yeah, no, that makes sense. And you kind of moved into, I guess, writing with the house hacking strategy. How did that come about? What was that process like?   Craig (13m 52s): Yeah. So writing has, you know, the miracle morning. I do. Yeah. Great. But yeah. Great. So amazing. Both of you haven't read that book. You need to read it a life-changing book, but ever since I started doing that, I started to write every morning and I think he had Ellen Rogers who wrote the book meant means like journaling, but I just enjoy actually just like writing content in the morning. And so basically I write every morning and I was writing blog after blog, after blog for bigger pockets. I think I have probably close to 60 blog posts on bigger pockets. And so they asked me, Hey, do you want to write this book on how second you can?   I was like, hell yeah, I do. And so I, you know, basically instead of writing the blog post every morning, I would just take a stab and write a piece of the book every morning. And after about a hundred days, I had a first draft of a book. And then, you know, for a few months later after the edits and stuff like that, it got published. And that was definitely a, an inflection point in my life.   Jesse (14m 43s): Yeah. I'm always fascinated as listeners probably know of the, the process, the, the, the writing process. We had Chad Carson, coach Carson on the show, by the time you're listening to this, that episode probably has aired. He was talking about the same thing. It was basically from blog to multiple blogs to book. It seems like a strategy that a lot of writers, especially in our space use, as well as, you know, on the other side of, for the individuals that maybe writing isn't isn't their passion, or it's just something that's that doesn't come easily easily to them.   I found that some, some people put content out audio and then basically transcript the audio and then kind of edit from there. But yeah, it's, it sounds like you were the former on that.   Craig (15m 24s): Yeah, no, I, I genuinely like to like touch the keyboard, which is weird, I guess, but like, I like to like make that thing go and yeah, it doesn't take long, you know, if you can just sit yourself, I mean, there's a word counter right on the bottom left, like a Microsoft word document. So I would just be like, I'm not, I'm not leaving this computer until a thousand words richer or whatever you want to call it.   Jesse (15m 43s): And for those that are interested, we'll put a link up for where you can reach out and where you can get the book. But in terms of the, the framework of the book, did you, I mean, obviously you, you wrote through blogs, but in terms of the framework itself, did that change from when you initially wrote it and you know, how did you approach that?   Craig (16m 1s): Yeah. So when you're running a book, it's all about the outline. Like you should spend half the time of half the total time writing the book on the outline, because that is the most important part. If you got the outline, good, the book will just write itself. Right. And so it's almost like almost, you just keep expanding, expanding its spending on the outline until it becomes the book and then you have to go back and, and make it flow. And so really it was just a mixture of yeah. Having a solid outline. Also, I took a lot of my blog posts and just kind of repurposed them a little bit for the book because I mean, a lot of my information is out in the world somewhere.   That's the great thing about a book, because you can even sit into one little thing. And so, and so, yeah, I mean, that was pretty much the process, you know, outline, outline, outline. And then after I had a thorough outline and I went over it with bigger pockets, I just, just started writing a thousand words a day. Every day. You had a, before you had a book.   Jesse (16m 55s): No, that makes sense. So in terms of the, you know, one of the biggest things right now that we're seeing in our market is it continues to be a lot of capital chasing fewer and fewer deals. And it just seems that deals are harder and harder to find where, you know, it's usually one or the other. And in times where there's a lot of deals out there, it's usually financing is harder to find. So in this environment, for those, whether they're looking for longer term properties or looking specifically to do house hacking, what's your approach for sourcing deals and you know, what do you tell clients and investors that you coach?   Craig (17m 28s): And so we get almost all of our deals on MLS and how second is kind of a different beast, right? And the reason for that is you don't need to get a property, super undervalued, add value to it and refinance it, right? The magic is just like slowly collecting rental properties with a low percent down. So you can buy a $600,000 property here in Denver and you're putting 5% down. That's 30 grand, right? And so you've gotten this, you have this property for 30 grand. You have to make the deal work by creatively trying to figure out ways, right? So we've got a lot of people that like to Airbnb, a lot of people that do rent by the room, we've we teach people how to do these split things that, that I like to do.   And those almost always cashflow, right? It may not be a thousand dollars a month at first, but over time, rents are going to increase. You're going to be paying more of your mortgage payment down. Maybe you can refinance to a lower rate. You can take off your PMI and you figure out ways to increase your cashflow over the course of five, seven years. And you know, that that's, the play is the long-term buy and hold. So that's why the MLS works is because again, we don't, we're not trying to like add a whole bunch of value and refinance it, deployed money back out. We're just okay with letting the $30,000 in and keeping it in there.   Jesse (18m 38s): Yeah. And it kind of sounds similar to what we do on the commercial real estate side. We always find that the owner occupier is the one that can pay the highest price for the, for the property because of the, the economies that they have, or the fact that because they're operating out of there. So I guess in a similar way, the person that is house hacking, maybe, you know, not that you're going to pay more than you should, but you probably can be more competitive than somebody that's purely going in there to rent it out.   Craig (19m 2s): Yep, exactly. Right. You can, you can. Yeah, exactly. You can pay more because again, like you're going to be thinking about your competition because the, the, the market's competitive. Right. And if your competition is a lot of it is like home buyers, it's probably more so than house hackers. And so as a house hacker, you can pay more because you're already offsetting your mortgage payment with rents. And so sure, like, what's the difference of like a $50,000 difference is like $250 on your mortgage. Right. It's significant, but it shouldn't be life-changing.   And that $250, you're going to make that back in a month with appreciation. Right. So like, it doesn't even like the price almost doesn't even matter, but make sure you run the numbers and it makes sense, but like with how exactly, I've just never heard anybody lose. Like, and I know a lot of house hackers.   Jesse (19m 50s): Yeah. No, it makes sense. I mean, especially that you're in the property, are there properties that you basically try to avoid or properties that, you know, comparing two properties, say one, like you said, that needs, needs renovations or needs capital improvements. Do you try to avoid those? And, and also just kind of on the same, on the same wavelength when it comes to properties that, you know, you can put a walkout in that doesn't currently have one that would be perfect and create a house hacking property. Is that something you also would look at when you're, when you're looking at properties?   Craig (20m 23s): Yeah. So we like to look at, so creating a walkout can be very hard if the house, like, you know, if the basement isn't already at like our level. So we try to find a house where the stairs to go, like stairs to go from the main level to downstairs is right by maybe a back door or garage door. So you can just kind of wall off where, you know, the backdoor meets the upstairs. And then the, so then just, so when you walk in the back door, it's just, you go down the steps.   And so that those lamps are the ones that we really like, and there's a ton of them in Denver. So that's what tends to really work. I think you had another question, but I forgot what you asked   Jesse (21m 4s): In terms of the, just other capital improvements. Are there, are there certain properties that you, you try to avoid when it comes to, you know, when it comes to spending a certain amount of money to get it to where you need it to be? Okay.   Craig (21m 16s): Yeah. So again, I like the layout to be, like I said, right where the, the less amount of work I have to do the better. So if I have to like dig a separate entrance, like that's a lot of work, expensive egress windows can be very expensive and they've gone up in price in my market when I was putting them in like a couple of years ago, it was 3,500. Now it's close to $5,000 for a regressed window. And so if, if egos windows are already in there, that is really helpful. If there's some sort of plumbing fucked up to the downstairs, we can hook up a kitchen fairly easily.   That's really nice. And so, yeah, those are all the things that I kind of look for. There's nothing that I, I like nothing in particular that I wouldn't do, but if it's like, not even like it, but I wouldn't like force a house to make it a house hack. If the layout doesn't work and all that, like, there's, there's plenty of houses where the way it does work.   Jesse (22m 5s): Yeah. Fair enough. So just shifting gears in terms of where we're at in the market right now, I know that, you know, as you mentioned, you, you write a bunch of blogs. I've seen different posts that you've had. I'm curious to get your thoughts on the current market environment that we're in. Obviously, you know, there's been lockdowns for a few years, almost two years now, if not, yeah. Over we're coming into it right now to two years in terms of how that's affected, if it has at all, the way that you're viewing the real estate market. And is it informing decisions that you're making today?   Craig (22m 37s): Yeah, that's a good question. So, so COVID was probably the best thing that ever happened to me from a, it from a financial standpoint, which maybe I'm, I think I'm one of the few, because when everything's shut down in April and may of 2020 is right. When I basically started my real estate agent business and no one was doing showings. Right. And it was super competitive before that, but no one was doing showings and Denver never really shut it down. Like they never made it. So you couldn't schedule it. Like there were some markets where you couldn't schedule it Denver, you can still schedule it.   And I was talking to like my buyers and I was like, well, no one else is looking right now showing percentages, showing times like showing rate is down 88%. So I swear we're probably the only ones even looking and the seller wants to sell and you want to buy, so if you're cool with it, like I'm cool with it. Let's just go and it will be, you know, six feet apart wear the mask, whatever, like, you know, and, and so we did that and we were for like a few months there, every offer that we were putting out there was getting accepted and it was at asking price. And it was like, it was even below asking price, which was like beautiful for them, for the buyers.   Obviously that was only a short window. And then as things started to heat up again towards the end of last summer, and then all through winter 20, 20, 20, 21, and throughout 2021, things got started really heating up and getting really, really competitive. And that's where house hacking comes into play. Right. Because it's like, Hey, not only were the price is going up, but rents were also going up as well. But we were saying like, okay, let's just analyze the deal, right? Like it's listed for 500,000, can you pay five 50 for it? Like, this is what your mortgage payment would be.   This is what you'll get in rent. You're still going to be making over a thousand dollars a month, like who cares what the listing price is and how much over we have to go. Then the only downside was the appraisal gap coverage, right. Where, you know, for the listeners that may not know is if the appraisal is, comes in lower than the purchase price, someone's got to make up that difference in cash buyer or seller or combination of the two. We kind of had a, a way around that as well. And so should I get into that or please do so, so one thing that we did a lot of was we would set the inspection.   So we would set the inspection for maybe seven to 10 days out. So let's say, you know, you're under contract on November. First inspection would be November 10th. We would then immediately call the lender and get a rush appraisal to be done like that same, the same week. So we're reporting this on a Monday, the appraisal would be backed by Friday before the inspection deadline. If the appraisal comes back super low, we can still back out because of the inspection. So we were able to fully waive the appraisal while still having to be able to back out on the inspection. And that was a strategy that I think a lot of, well, maybe we were the only ones to do it, but I'm sure we're not the only ones to do that strategy, but that worked really well for us in terms of getting deals in our contracts, getting deals done and making sure both parties were very happy.   Jesse (25m 33s): No, fair enough. And in terms of the short-term rental space. So I think you've, you've written blogs on this in terms of that area of the business, you know, how has, how do you see that market given everything that's transpired over the past year and a half, two years? And do you think, do you think it's a S it's a space that is going to be coming back? If it has an already   Craig (25m 55s): It's already come back and it's tough. It's like, it's doubled since, but it was, so I had a whole bunch of short term rentals. I was one of the scared ones that shut, shut everything down and turn into long-term rentals during COVID. And I think a lot of people did that. So the supply and demand just wasn't there. So then as more and more Airbnbs came on and we started air, like our clients started being, they were just crushing. It they're like, dude, I like you told me I was going to make like 3000 a month. I'm making 5,000 a month, like, like the are conservative numbers. Like they were blowing our numbers out of the water, which was great.   Like, I would much rather have people be happier in that regard. But, you know, as, as, as, as far as where it's going to go, like, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know. That's why I always say like, Airbnb can be your plan a right. And that could be the way you make your most money, but like, make sure you have a plan B that also cashflows, even if it's only a hundred bucks over the mortgage, just so you can hold it, hold it through this recession or whatever, because, you know, when, when, whenever this recession hits that we're going to have at some point, right? Like the first thing that's going to go is recreational travel business travel is probably going to be a lot less, especially with zoom and all of these things that have come to fruition through COVID and there's going to be a lot less reasons for people to travel and want to travel.   And so if the Airbnb, I mean, at the end of the day, Airbnb hasn't even gone. Hasn't even made it through a recession yet the company Airbnb. Right. So we don't even know how they would handle it. So just to have that, have that like backup plan, I think it's super important.   Jesse (27m 24s): Yeah. In terms of the actual financing of deals, obviously you're doing a particular strategy and niche when it comes to the house hacking, but generally speaking, do you have a, a certain methodology or philosophy about how you handle the debt side of your business?   Craig (27m 41s): So I, I personally am trying to get as many, as many Fannie Freddie loans as I possibly can, because we all know that's the cheapest and that's the best kind of debt you can have. I think you're allowed to have up to 10 Fannie Freddie type loans. Once you've maxed out at your 10, you know, then you have to start thinking about other creative ways. And so right now, I think I'm at like seven or eight, I'm going to probably be at 10 by early next year, but I'm fine with that.   Like, I kind of just want to exhaust my 10 because now I'm going into like more commercial real estate investing, triple net, lease side stuff and all that. And that's where I see the future of my real estate investing going. But yeah,   Jesse (28m 24s): No, that makes sense. I want to kind of shift a little bit to something we talked about at the beginning. So your W2 job, or, you know, your, your normal kind of day to day job. You're not dissimilar to a lot of people that we have on the show that make the jump into full-time investment for people that are looking to get into real estate or people that are into real estate. And they're coming up to what, you know, you had an inflection point, you know, what do you, what, what would you say to those individuals in terms of actually kind of leaving the, the day job and you know, what seems like a pretty, and it is a scary, scary move, you know, what, what are your thoughts on that?   Craig (28m 59s): I mean, it's uncomfortable doing so, right. But think about it this way is that your worst case scenario is the scenario you're in right now, right? Your worst case scenario is as you quit, you maybe lose $5,000 on an experiment of trying to, you know, do something for yourself. And then you have to go back and get another job. Right? Like that that's really a hardest. And so if you can kind of just like, look at it as an experiment and look at it, like nothing is permanent, just because you say you quit, it doesn't mean you have to quit forever.   Right. And also, I like the idea that, yeah, you've got enough rental property, passive income to support at least your basic living expenses so that you have enough runway. So that it's, it's not, you know, it's not an issue, you know? Yeah. So   Jesse (29m 44s): For you, it wasn't, it wasn't like a burn, the boats thing where you just absolutely, you know, drop it and say, I'm going to start buying real estate. It was buy real estate, figure out what that number is to make it, make it at least somewhat more comfortable to make, to do that transition. Do I have that right?   Craig (29m 59s): Yeah. Yep. Is that right? Right. I mean, I think for me, I had like $3,000 of passive income and I was like, I'm a single dude. Like I can live off of that as long as I say frugal. And then once you become your entrepreneurial self, you can make a million times more than you ever could have W2. And that will just funnel you're, you know, getting more financially independent or, you know, more fat financially independent, or however you want to call it.   Jesse (30m 22s): No. Fair enough. So in terms of the, you know, you mentioned you, you did get licensed, so as a licensed realtor, you kind of moved into that space, the fit team. Is that, is that on the investing side or is that the, is that on the broker agenda things?   Craig (30m 36s): Yeah, so I ended up being like so busy last year that I either had to quit or start a team. So we started a team. We, we got a team about 1520 agents now that are all house hackers, all investors, at least on the investment side. And so we help coach guide, mentor people through that process of house hacking. We've got pretty much everything you need in terms of, you know, relationships with vendors, leases, calculators, like we'll walk you through the entire process if you need us to just because that process is so scary to like the first person putting their, like 30 of the $40,000, they've saved up for their whole life into one house.   It makes you feel better when you've got a whole team of people with, you know, hundreds of deals under their belt, kind of guiding you through that.   Jesse (31m 23s): Yeah, for sure. And I mean, in terms of the team itself, the, the team that you built out and the coaching that you have, was that something that happened, it seems like you, you had the demand. So you built out the team for those that are building their own team w with real estate, whether it's sourcing real estate, trying to get property managers, what are your recommendations? Kind of some of the stuff that you've found that were helpful to you when you were starting out and you're buying these first few properties,   Craig (31m 52s): I I'd say like, just document your systems as best as you can. Loom is something that I use a lot. So I'm sure people know about it by now, it's a screen recording thing. It's a plug-in on Chrome and anything you do that is repetitive, you should be looming it. Right. And you save it somewhere so that someone else can do it. Right. So, so these days I'm doing very few. I really don't do any showings. I really don't do any contract writing. I've got the team that does that and they can ramp up so easily without asking me hardly any questions, because I literally have videos and videos and templates and samples of all of that.   Right. So we can onboard a new agent pretty quickly and they're up and running very quickly. And the questions they asked me are like high level questions that they should be asking me. And so I can stay kind of in my 20%, which is know content creation coming on, podcasts like this, right. Doing stuff like that to just to just grow the, grow the brand.   Jesse (32m 46s): Yeah. That's great. I love the loom. And it's funny now, like two years or a year and a half after everything, that's, that's really been going on in the world. It's nice that we have zoom, loom, Skype, where you can actually, you know, when you're hiring something, somebody just the other day, my partner and I were like, okay, we can give instructions to this person. Or we could just record the call, the onboarding call. And then, you know, they, he, or she has a reference.   Craig (33m 7s): Yeah. It's, it's so amazing. Like, and I think it's way easier. Like the old fashioned, like paper trail documents, like your type every step-by-step. We have a little bit of that, but the loons are just so much easier and so much better too. Like it's a picture is worth a thousand words. Right. So video's worth like a million.   Jesse (33m 24s): Yeah, no, a hundred percent. A 100%. And then you ha it's, it's more dynamic, right? Yeah. You can have somebody in real time asking you questions and then solve it, solve it right there. Awesome. Well, we have, we've got four questions that we ask every guest that comes on the show and want to be mindful of the time here. But before we get to that, in terms of the coaching that you have for people to reach out we're where can they find find you? And, you know, what's the best route for them to, to take on.   Craig (33m 51s): Yeah. So, you know, we've got our podcast, the fight team podcast is actually being rebranded here shortly. So we're going to come up with a new name, so be on the lookout for that. And then, you know, if you're, if you're in the Denver area or you need a real estate investor from the real estate, Adrian, the fight team.com is where you can find us. And I'm also on Instagram. If you want to just kind of check out my stuff at the fire guy.   Jesse (34m 12s): Absolutely. We'll put a link to everything in the show notes, but yeah, let's go to the final four here. If you're, if you're ready to go, I'll send them your way. Let's do it. Okay. What's something, you know, now in your career, it can be real estate or business that you wish you knew when you first started out.   Craig (34m 30s): I wish I knew the who, not how concept have you heard of, you know, that mother basically. Yeah. That whole thing of why stay in, what do you do best in stay in your zone of what you do best at anything. You don't do good. Hire someone to do it for you. Cause they're not only going to do it better, quicker and probably cheaper, but it's going to also grow your business much faster and you're going to be happier.   Jesse (34m 56s): Yeah. I can't, I can't recommend that book enough when we were at the BP con BiggerPockets conference in new Orleans, I was think Dan Sullivan is the author awesome book. It's it really is. It really changes the way you look at things because for so long, we're taught, you know, if you, if you get somebody to collaborate with you, if you give somebody a task that you're, you know, you're cheating in school. Right. But really the idea of find, find out who's the best person to do that. And it should be, should it be taking up your bandwidth or not? Yep. Love that.   Awesome. All right. Number two here. What is a, a book that you seem to constantly be recommending and we'll put the who not, how on put that aside for a second or podcast that you, that you keep recommending?   Craig (35m 40s): I guess the miracle morning doesn't count either. Cause he already mentioned that one, definitely the miracle morning and who knows how or applied my tattoo a podcast, obviously there's a bigger pockets podcast. That one is kind of a no brainer. Can I just depends on where you are in your journey. But I think like for, for fundamental business books, miracle morning changed my life. Who knows how it changed my life. And also the E-Myth is, is really, really good if you're thinking about growing a business and long people wanting to step away someday.   Jesse (36m 9s): That's great. We'll put links up to those as well. In terms of people that are getting into the industry, people that are, whether it's through brokerage or looking from the investor's lens, what would you tell them in today's market? And just generally your thoughts on mentorship?   Craig (36m 27s): My thoughts. So, so in terms of the market today, I think like you have to just like keep buying no matter what the market's doing, because timing the market is like been known to be fail failure right now, known to fail. So just dollar cost, average it by one a year with the course of 10 years and you'll buy it the highest you'll buy it. The lowest in terms of mentorship and stuff. I think you really, I hate that term mentor. I hate when someone asks me to be their mentor, I kinda just wanna be your friend, right? Like I'll be friends with almost anybody, as long as you're, we've got the same values, the same morals, and we're kind of on the same page.   So just like go to meetups and just start talking to people, right. And then follow up with them and grab a coffee with them and grab dinner with them and go on a hike with them. And before you know it you're, you've got a friend and maybe they're more experienced than you. Then they become your mentor. Right. They're going to naturally just give you advice. They're going to want to help you. And so that's like my favorite way to mentorship is just becoming friends with people that are both above you. So you can be the mentee and below you. So you can be the mentor.   Jesse (37m 25s): That makes sense. All right. The last one, Craig, first car make and model.   Craig (37m 30s): Oh man. He tried to get to my bank accounts. It's a 2002 Dodge. Intrepid was my first car   Jesse (37m 38s): Right on. And I said, that's not the one you put on Turo.   Craig (37m 41s): No, no. The one I put on Turo was a Toyota Prius, which got smashed up. But yeah, that's a fun, fun story. Maybe we'll dive into it real quick. I think I lost you on the yeah.   Jesse (37m 57s): Okay. Yeah, no, you can get into it. Cause I know you put a, you put a blog out as well about, about just different income streams I think. And Turo was a Toro was definitely one of them I believe.   Craig (38m 8s): Yeah. So yeah, back in the day, Touro was a street, was an income stream that I had to kind of while I was at bigger pockets and I could fight to work. And so basically I, I was proud of myself. I read, never split the difference by Chris Boston negotiating book. And I was able to negotiate the price of that car from 12,500 down to 10,000. So I bought the car for 10,000. I Ubered it for awhile. I toll road for awhile. The car probably made me about $10,000 over the course of two years. And then someone crashed on Turo. The Touro com whatever the company has, some insurance policy where they actually paid me out like 11,500 for it.   I ended up like getting more than I ever paid for it initially after, you know, however many miles later. And then I bought a crappy car for like 50, for like five grand and kept the six grand and invested in real estate. So   Jesse (38m 57s): There you go. Always, always on the move. Awesome. All right. Well, we'll put links up to, to everything that we talked about here. And just for those that, you know, I know you have a presence on Instagram as well. Could you just let us know the handle for that as well?   Craig (39m 11s): Yup. It's a, the fire guy. So like the financial independence guy.   Jesse (39m 17s): Awesome. My guest today has been Craig Kurloff Craig. Thanks for being part of working capital.   Craig (39m 21s): Thanks for having me on Jesse. Appreciate you.   Jesse (39m 31s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.  

Hva så?! med Christian Fuhlendorff
Hva så?! - Jesper Skibby

Hva så?! med Christian Fuhlendorff

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 15, 2021 88:01


Afsnit 337. Jesper Skibby! Jesper er tidligere cykelrytter, men selvom cyklen er lagt på hylden, er hans bramfrihed og gåpåmod lige så tilstede som den altid har været. Dette er dagens afsnit et digitalt bevis på; Jesper fortæller om alt fra hans omgang med doping og misbrug til hvordan hans forældres kontrastfyldte opdragelse har haft indflydelse på hans liv. Jeg håber i nyder at lytte, lige så meget som vi nyder at snakke. Gå fornøjelse, Christian.

Summoning Insight
Worlds Finals breakdown; DoubleLift vs Regi (feat. Zven and Richard Lewis)

Summoning Insight

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 12, 2021 262:22


Join MonteCristo and Thorin with guests Jesper "Zven" Svenningsen, Cloud9 AD carry, and Richard Lewis, esports host and investigative journalist, as they discuss the Worlds finals between DAMWON and EDG, Zven's experience on C9 at Worlds, roster rumors, the Reginald vs DoubleLift drama, and more. This episode was filmed on November 12th, 2021.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Retire Early with Real Estate with Coach Carson | EP78

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2021 50:14


Chad Carson is an Entrepreneur, Writer, and Teacher, who Co Owns over 100 Units of Rental Property and Private Lending In and Around the College Town of Clemson, South Carolina. He wrote an Amazon Bestselling book “Retire Early With Real Estate”, and his story has been featured on Forbes, Yahoo Finance and more. Chad, His Wife, and Two Kids Recently Returned from 17 months Living Abroad in Cuenca, Ecuador. Each Week Chad Shares Tips, Strategies and Stories on His Popular Blog Podcast on Youtube Chanel CoachCarson.com In this episode we talked about:  • Chad's Bio & Background  • Flipping Houses  • Ups and Downs of Students Rental Space  • De-Risking Real Estate Deals  • Valuation Metrics of Single-Family Rentals VS Student Rentals  • Raising Capital in College Towns  • Chad's Plan for Tomorrow  • House Hacking  • The process of Writing the“Retire Early With Real Estate” Book  • Chad's Thoughts and Views on Interest Rates and Inflation  • Unlevered Yield  • Coaching and Blogging on Youtube Channel  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned   Useful links: https://www.coachcarson.com https://www.instagram.com/coachcarson1/ Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My guest today is Chad Carson, AKA coach Carson.   Chad Carson is the author of the bigger pockets book retire early with real estate. And he is an entrepreneur writer and teach and teacher who cones over a hundred units of rental property in Clemson, South Carolina, Chad used real estate investing to reach financial independence before the age of 37. When he, his wife and two kids decided to spend 17 months living in Ecuador in south America each week. Chad shares tips, strategies and stories on his popular blog podcast and YouTube channel coach Carson, coach Carson. How's it going?   It's great,   Chad (1m 2s): Jesse. Good to see you. Good to see you again. And we were on a panel not too long ago, so nice to connect.   Jesse (1m 7s): Yeah, absolutely. Yes. We were in new Orleans on the a at BP con, which was a lot of fun. I've talked about it on the show. It was nice to get out there since the last one in Nashville, which I guess was two years before that. Right?   Chad (1m 20s): Exactly. Yeah. It's like the rockstars of real estate. You get to hang out with people and talk about the market. Talk about all deal making. It's a lot of fun.   Jesse (1m 30s): Yeah, absolutely. And you know what I did forget to mention you are also a, a alumni of Clemson football. So go tigers.   Chad (1m 38s): Yeah, exactly. We're not doing so hot this year, but for the, any of the college football fans, Clemson's usually up there, but this year we're a little, a little soft.   Jesse (1m 46s): And if I remember correctly, you're you played linebacker back in the day there   Chad (1m 50s): I did. Yeah, that was my that's how I paid for my school. So luckily I didn't have it as far as I know, no permanent damage, you know, concussions, things like that, but yeah, it was middle linebacker. I was about 40 pounds bigger and had a, had a lot of fun doing that at the, at that time   Jesse (2m 5s): Weight loss period that that happens after the, the college football day.   Chad (2m 9s): It either it either goes one or two directions. I lost, I lost my four day in that like all the little small guys now on the team are like enormous. So they found all the weight that I lost.   Jesse (2m 18s): Sorry, the secondary maybe gained some weight and then you get the lineman that, that cut it   Chad (2m 23s): Down. Yeah, exactly. Right   Jesse (2m 25s): On. Well, thanks again for coming on. I thought it would be great to have you on the show since that panel, that we were on a lot of the questions that we got seem to be still topical today, before we kind of dive into, you know, what's currently going on with real estate and what you're doing for listeners, maybe you can give a little bit of a background about how you got into real estate and what you've been up to since, since that's first started.   Chad (2m 49s): Sure. Yeah. So when I graduated from college, so at Clemson university, I thought I was going to go to play football and NFL, and that was a dream that quickly got shattered. And then I also was a biology major college. So I was considering going into medical school, kind of that direction. Also had some job offers in the financial world, you know, working like on wall street, that kind of thing. But I was really always really interested in the lifestyle of a real estate entrepreneur and particularly a small real estate entrepreneur who sort of controls your own destiny and works out of the house and keeps overhead small.   And so a business partner and I started flipping houses pretty soon after I graduated from college and we scraped by and figured out ways to come up with capital to buy primarily single family houses, fix them up, flip them. And then over time that worked out pretty well and we were able to make a living. And we, I think that was 2003 when we started by 2006 and seven, we also started buying some rental properties as well. And in particular, we got into the niche of college student rental properties eventually in Clemson, South Carolina.   So we're in a college town. So that just seemed to be the best fit for finding a good balance of cashflow and growth and good longterm stability and wealth building was with those kind of small multiunit properties, duplexes, fourplexes with a 12 Plex. We have some kind of aggregated land that we have with multiple apartment units on it as well. But that's where we are now. Today is a, we have 110 units. Most of those I'd say 60% are those college student rentals, but also have a mix of single family houses, mobile homes, things like that.   Jesse (4m 23s): Yeah, that makes sense. And in terms of the, the first ones that you got into, not, I guess dissimilar from a lot of people that get into our, our space coming at the kind of value add flipping, was that something that at that time you thought might be the direction that you'd go to, to do flipping or, or was it, you know, it's a little too hands-on and maybe passive or somewhat passive is the better, better.   Chad (4m 46s): Yeah, I mean, I looked at it as is, it's a great way to add value and that, particularly for me, I didn't have any capital upfront. So I just, I don't know where I heard it, but I just learned that if you can find a good deal and in any market, then the capital is out there. There's there's and I think that's more true today than, than ever that we are flooded with capital. I mean, there's people who are looking for deals, there's money, that's looking for deals, but if you're that small entrepreneur or big entrepreneur who can go out and find a lot of real opportunities that have either equity that you can add value to today, or you can find good longterm cashflow in long and growing, growing markets or markets are good opportunities.   I just found that skillset that I learned early on was so valuable for all sorts of things and it put food on the table to start off. But over time I found that acquiring equity that I could work one time, do all the work upfront and then have that paid dividends for a really long time. That was just very enticing to have that because it fit into the lifestyle goals that I had, not just, I love working, I love projects, but real estate to me, the power of it is how it starts in the beginning as a startup. You had put a lot of work in, but it becomes a relatively passive investment that gives you a lot of lifestyle freedom and the end.   Jesse (6m 0s): And at that time, I mean, getting into student rentals, was that the approach initially, or was it just that that's where you were finding   Chad (6m 8s): It was not my approach originally. It was mainly to single family houses and typical suburban kind of subdivisions is where we found a lot of our early deals. And I still like those single family house deals for what they are as well. But I actually did a house hack where I lived in one unit and rented out the other, my first introduction to college student rentals. And it was just where I wanted to live. It was near the college town. It was near just the place I wanted to be. And I found that I just, I think I started from that getting to know the, the tenants themselves.   So I live next door to a wonderful Chinese couple who are getting their PhD in some kind of health, health initiative, or I'm sorry, healthcare or biotech, I think it was. And then another, you know, had like an international flavor, had China and the other guy and his wife from South Africa and another one from another, you know, another country. And I just thought it really interesting, the people I was meeting and I thought they were really good tenants. And so it just that sort of just landing into my lap, having to find somewhere to live in a house act is a great way to pay for your living expenses.   But after that, I said, there's gotta be more opportunities to buy more properties like this. And so we started picking up after you every year from there.   Jesse (7m 21s): And in terms of the, the student rental angle, like I think we, we chatted a little bit in new Orleans that, that very similar, how I got started in real estate was, was in the student rental space. And, you know, you hear everything when you're investing in student rentals from, you know, it's, it's a complete nightmare. You're dealing with tenants, but maybe you can talk to listeners a bit about how that's a, it's pretty misleading. And, and if anything, it's, it's really, from a risk standpoint, I look at it at completely the other way around what most people will tell you.   Chad (7m 50s): Yeah. It's like real estate in general. Some people run away from it because they heard that there's going to be tenants and toilets and people having leaks. And that's going to be such a big deal. Well, the same with student rentals, they hear that people have, you know, big parties and through kegs through windows, which I'm sure happens somewhere. Right. And in fact, I've probably been at some of those parties when I was in college, but, but it's not, it's not the, the, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. So a lot of there are a lot of good students, students who are renting their place and to take responsibility and you also have the, the parents are often helping pay, pay their way.   That's just the reality of it. And so if you do that, you can, I, I have very little credit risk with my student rentals. We have almost always had payments on time. I can think of two situations. And now 18 years of investing a little bit less than that with student rentals, where I've had a credit issue on a student rental and the rest of the time, the rent's paid things. Thanks for taking care of. They have a security deposit. There are some damage issues here and there just like you would with any tenant. But I saw, I think the positive of student rentals as they be find the right university, the right town, the right place with the right dynamics, you're going to consistently get your rent.   That's great. And the negative, I would say the drawback of it is it's a more higher high turnover type business. So you do have that maintenance, you know, maintenance turnover, and your, I found my maintenance cost to be higher than maybe some people would anticipate early on just because you're having to paint. You're having to clean up. You're having to do these things pretty often. And, but the flip side of that again, is that we are leasing period starts for student rentals. And now December before they, before August of the next year.   Yeah. So here we are, actually, we're our property manager just talked to another day. They're starting right now, here we are beginning of November. So it gets earlier and earlier where know, at least in our market, students are trying to lock down their rentals pretty early. And so that's what we found is we can, pre-lease all of our, our rentals, very rarely do we have something that's vacant. Hmm. Okay. So we do have a vacancy period about 10 to 14 days when we're fixing up the property and doing the turnover. But that's like, there is no sitting there for, for one or two months waiting on finding a tenant there's pre-leasing, you know, turnover period.   And then it's leased for 12 months. Yeah.   Jesse (10m 8s): And I find in most markets, I'm not sure if, if for yourself, is that nine times out of 10, the occupancy is really only three quarters of the year. Some of them do, at least my experience has been, some of them do stay in the summer, but we typically see 12 month, 12 month leases paying rent for 12 months, but really occupancy either.   Chad (10m 27s): That's exactly right. Yeah. And it's a pretty strong landlord market for us in our markets, even, you know, so we've been able to always negotiate that we don't do nine months leases or have to do subleases, but they, most of the people are gone or the summer, or maybe come for a few weekends here and there, but that's, that's the case for us as well. I'm curious,   Jesse (10m 45s): Do you, de-risk further with having the least document several or in other words, if one person doesn't pay rent that the others have to come up with that rent, is that how you structure your,   Chad (10m 58s): We do structure ours that way. Yeah. There's, there's other big operations in town who have like least by the bedroom type arrangements. We've always chosen not to do that. And we had explained that early on with a couple of students who, Hey, my roommate is not paying the rent. That's not my deal. I said, well, actually it is your deal. That's your, you look at, look at this like a partnership, you know, this is a marriage without the, all the good stuff. Right. You know, you're, you're married to your, to your, your partners here. And so they would all have to pay the rent and figure it out among themselves.   And, and so, yes, it was very rarely happened, but that has been, that's come up. And so we, we do have that discussion with the lease with our private property managers to have that discussion. Now let them know that.   Jesse (11m 38s): Yeah. And it's great because you have a kind of a, I mean, you have a private, private solution or private market solution, but you also have kind of social norms that factor into that too, where, you know, one person, when they have four other friends living in a place where, you know, parents have the lease and somebody is not paying, you know, the pressure to make sure that you, you know, you're on time and you do things properly. It's probably like,   Chad (12m 1s): Yeah, they work it out. Yeah. There's the, yeah. You don't want to let down your roommates let down other people, so, or, or the handle it privately behind the scenes, you know, they, they work it out. Yeah.   Jesse (12m 10s): And on the other side of the other flip side of the fact that there's more turnover, I know in markets that have more rent control or more, more regulatory red tape, they actually liked those landlords. Like the fact that there's more turnover, because then you can actually reset rents without issue.   Chad (12m 29s): Yeah. That's been a big deal for the last six, seven years for it because the rents have gone up consistently every single year. And so rather than having to face that, how do I raise my rent on a good tenant kind of conversation, which is always tricky, right? You can now push it to market rent every single time. And the other benefit of that big lead time on your leasing period is that you can test out new rent levels without a whole lot of risk. And so if we push it too far and we can't find anybody, like we're getting zero leads at this new rent level, we can pull it back and say, okay, we're a little too aggressive here.   Let's pull it back to this. And I've always found with leasing, I don't do the leasing anymore, but I've, I've done tons of leasing over in the past. And it's a really good skill to have because you can see that you can see the sensitivity to price, to the marketing you're doing to whatever. And if you get the right price, market match, I mean, it's like a faucet. Like you turn on the faucet on the water and the leads start coming through. I've always found. And so I think it's good to have done that myself because when I'm having conversations with my people who are doing our leasing, I don't have a lot of excuses.   I might look, you know, it's either the property is not ready. It's either you're not promoting it well. Or the price is not right. It's one of those three, which one is it? And let's look, let's look at the metrics. Let's look at the numbers. How many leads are you getting? How many showings have you had? How many applications have you had? How many people are not renting is one of those, like we're having a problem. And one of those levels there   Jesse (13m 52s): And how has the last a year or two Chad, how has that impacted number one, your business, or, and as well, your, your outlook on, on the space that you're in and potentially maybe where, where you'd want to be?   Chad (14m 5s): Well, I mean, us personally, I was a little, I was scared during COVID, I'll be, I'll be, be honest about that. And the story, the story for me was where we, we are a big fish and a kind of a small pond or in a small town with a big university. We have a lot of our holdings in one place. And so as, as we've matured with our portfolio, looking to have some geographic diversification was always on our radar. And we've kind of been doing that both with, within real estate and also into equities and other things too. But it hit home with COVID because a lot of the COVID regulations, nobody really knew what was going to happen in March of 2020.   And when the university where we are at Clemson university decided to go all virtual. My first thought my concern was, well, why would anybody come back to school? Like if they're going to be, you know, going virtual, they can do that from their home, wherever they live. And so I'm, I'm thinking, okay, you know, how much cash I need to save? In case we have 12 months of like 30% occupancy or 50% occupancy, I'm started thinking about worst case scenarios. And we start figuring out how much is that going to cost us to do that and how much we have to lower our rents. So that, that didn't pan out.   It turns out most people came back and wanted to have their lease their, their, their apartments. Anyway, even though they were virtual, but it did imprint upon me, the fact that we have some vulnerability that we need just as a personal wealth building strategy, that diversification is really important. And that's, so this, this last year and a half or two COVID has been, that's been the message for us of de-risking our geographic exposure, but also just de-risking period. Like if we do have a situation like that, even if we're not geographically diversified, we we've made it to the place where we have enough, we have enough income, we have enough properties.   So de-leveraging paying off debt, doing some things that are not real sexy or not real recommended for people who are always growing, but actually doing the boring, paying off your debt. You know what happens if you have a great depression or your rents go down, I can deal with that. If you, even, if you had, if you had no debt and you read sweat crater by 50%, that would be painful. You'd have to tighten your belt, but you wouldn't lose your properties because you couldn't pay your debt. It would be a totally different situation.   Jesse (16m 13s): Yeah. And that's another thing we talked about on the panel. It's this idea, where's that balance of, of you don't want your, you know, to a certain extent, you don't want to have no debt because then, you know, your return on equity is not pretty, but at the same time, you don't want your loan to value or, or your debt to be so large that maybe you're cash flowing. But like you said, do you have a correction of 10% of the market, 15, 20, whatever it is. And then all of a sudden you are in negative territory.   Chad (16m 38s): Yeah. And I, I just, I look at people that are a lot smarter than me only look at Warren buffet and people who, who build their business to be resilient. He he's an insurance business. He has to be reinsurers all the big insurers out there. And so he has to be cognizant that he can't predict everything and I've got to save a lot of cash. There is some leverage in his portfolio, you know, he has float and I'm sure it's some kind of long-term debt, some of his holdings. But if you look at the total debt that a company like Berkshire, Hathaway, Hathaway, or other mature companies have, once they've achieved that maturity, they're not aggressively trying to like spring every single bit of return out of their portfolio.   They're more about not losing money, like not, not having habit. They want to survive for the next, for the long run. And I think there's a, there's some wisdom in that. I think we, we real estate investing is so debt heavy that we just assume that that's always the way things are done. And the people I know is just me personally, on the small level, who've really done well over the long run and who personally have a lot of peace of mind. And they're just not really worried about the ups and downs of the market are often the people with the most cash in the bank and the least debt. And so, I don't know, that's my, that's my personal correlation that I see out there.   Yeah.   Jesse (17m 47s): Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. It just gives you, it gives you that little bit of buffer in terms of, of risk in general. Now, when it comes to, when it comes to student rental properties specifically, we've heard my partners and I actually more demand in the last little while I've had schools in our area, reach out to me and, you know, asking, are your listings still available because we don't, we just don't have the supply or is your market similar? Is, are you seeing that there's a bit of a supply challenge for student rentals?   It's,   Chad (18m 19s): It's been yes. For the most part has been that same scenario. We've, we've had some ups and downs because we're, we're in a pretty small market. So we have 24,000 students who go to Clemson university. There are 17,000 residents or the population of the city of Clumpson. So the university, and then the city, the city of 17,000. And then we have a couple little small towns, somebody we're very, it's a unique situation. We're very, we don't have a lot of other renters other than our students and our faculty. So when every time there's, there's been some supply excesses, when you have 2000 new units come out online at one, one year luxury student apartments.   So sometimes your upper end, your upper rent type stuff, we have a few, you know, more closer to campus, higher rent stuff. Those get affected big time. Whenever the new stuff comes on on the market, it's like throwing a big rock in a pond, you know, and we're in a small pond as everything gets kind of shaken up. So we had some vacancy issues for on a couple of properties, but for the most part that kind of stabilizes and the, the D the overall driver of that is the student population has been increasing at the university consistently, probably two or 3% per year. And the supply doesn't always keep up with that perfectly.   You know, sometimes it goes above it. Sometimes it goes below it, but in general, I think if you're in a college town, that's the, that's the metric you need to pay attention to is student population, and then whatever other population of faculty and those kinds of things go with that. And then if you're in a larger college town than we are, which I think is healthier, actually, if you're in like a a hundred thousand person college town, or a bigger city, you also have other industries that are related to the university high-tech industries, things like that. And I think that's an interesting mix because then you can cater to the two different segments of the market.   Not only be, you know, renting to students, you can kind of have some cross, cross marketing to different populations out there.   Jesse (20m 5s): Yeah. We've seen that in, in most of the areas that we had seen residents, it's been more so like 170,000, 200,000 population wise, and then, you know, 30, 40,000 on the student side. So yeah, it's funny that they, you know, in Clemson, it's pretty much a, you know, you double the double, the population there when school's in exactly, in terms of the way you value on that student, on the student rental front, do you typically do what we do and that it's not a per door metric, it's usually a per bed metric.   And how do you look at valuation when it's, you know, single family versus student Rez?   Chad (20m 42s): Yeah. We look at it per bedroom as well. And there's a little bit of a, you know, kind of a gray area when you get into some of the lower price rentals where, you know, there there's some, a few that we rent to student grad students, or maybe also some regular local, just kind of people who just need a rental, but when you're in the pure student rental, yeah. We look at it, whether it's, you know, it's a four bedroom apartment that that's, you know, that's pretty clear, or sometimes we have two bedrooms and one, we, we, the two bedroom apartment, we're always looking at it like on the per bedroom basis. And we also value it that way.   So we, you know, we'll, we'll work it backwards to try to get almost always to some kind of rental yield number, you know, a cap rate rental yield, or trying to understand what if we paid, no, we had no debt on this property. You know, what is the yield on the, on that? And that's, that's the first level of valuation that we'll do. And I I've always liked it speaking back of debt. Again, you know, you have a cost of capital, you have a cost of debt, both either your debt costs or an equity cost, if you're splitting the deal with other people. But to me, the main metric that you have is that, that rental yield like an unleveraged rental yield, because that's what you're using to distribute to the debt and to your partners and everybody else.   And so I just, I've always kind of used that as my, my true north. Not because that's the only way we're going to make money, but because that's what gets me through the ups and downs, that's what got us through 2000 7, 8, 9, because we were able to pay our bills and have some, have some cushion there. And so that's, we start with that. And that, that metric has not been as attractive the last couple of years, as it was earlier, you know, as interest rates have gone down rental yield, unleveraged, rental yields have gone down as well as the prices have gone up. So people are just willing to buy properties with lower rental yields, but that's also made it more important to find deals, to have more kind of hidden value add or hidden upsides.   So I found that really knowing my market street by street, knowing what the things that are most important to my students are, for example, being close to public transportation, being on the bus line, also walkability. And bikeability, I think that's, that's my biggest personal metric. Like when I live somewhere, I want to be close to bike trails and walking, and, and I, I feel like that is a generational thing where people go to college towns, they often have a walkability and bikeability, that's pretty good. Clemson's not so good. I've been trying to work on that on the side, trying to get that better, but I think they go there and then they go to other towns and like, Hey, I remember my college experience was so walkable and bikeable, they want to go find places as, as once they find their first apartments and houses that also have that.   And so I think that's a really important trend, you know, nationally with, with different, different markets that we're in. But I think that from a college town standpoint, if you can find the numbers are important and leveraged yield, but we're also trying to, if we're going to buy and hold for a long period of time, I want to find the places that are better than others in town, whether that's distance the campus along a bus line, along a bike lane, some kind of, you know, just a character in the market, big trees, nice, nice sidewalks, things like that that are harder to replicate when people build new construction.   But if you can buy that from an existing property that gives, that gives you some extra value.   Jesse (23m 48s): Yeah. I like the, the unleveraged yield approach, but, you know, it's kind of, here's, here's a net yield for a property and, and kind of getting, you know, taking out the debt first as an analysis, it makes a lot of sense in terms of the, the walkability I find interesting too is cause when you go to certain college towns, to your point of knowing the specific market is that some college towns, you know, their tolerance for, you know, a hundred more yards or 200 yards, it might be lower or higher than other universities. I know in our area, some universities, if it's, if it's a five minute more walk, all of a sudden, you know, that they rule that out or a specific property, they're like, no, we're not, we're not going on that side of the street.   Chad (24m 27s): All right. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta go block by block. Right. I mean, you just got to know that's where local market knowledge is so critical. Yeah,   Jesse (24m 33s): Absolutely. So in terms of, as you, as you kind of continued to, to get, you know, get more properties, you're now over a hundred units in terms of where you want to be next, when it comes to whether it's apartment building, student residence, what does that look like for you, Chad?   Chad (24m 50s): Yeah, we're sort of thinking of, you know, I'm not saying contrary contrarian, but my lifestyle has sort of dictated the way I'm going to build my business. And I have a healthy respect for like bigger businesses and people who build big, you know, big syndications, but that's, that's been like the opposite of what my business partner and I are trying to do. We sort of hit a level where we said, here's the fork in the road for us. We're either going to continue growing. And by other units, we could replicate what we've done here and doing it another college town or another city, and raise a lot of capital and do that. Or we could just say, all right, this is, this is as big as we want to get our business.   And we actually frame it as like a small and mighty business, like this, keep this thing deliberately small so that we can then have space to do other things. And for me, other things are teaching other people how to do it. And I have a podcast as well, traveling with my family, doing, you know, consulting here and there for other people doing a YouTube channel. So it's just, it's more of a personal choice. This isn't as much. So the personal choice has dictated that our real estate investing business is not going to get any bigger. And so going back to the de-risking conversation, that's another reason that we, we look at, you know, I looked at the cashflow, our business produces from the gross revenue.   And then after deducting all of our expenses, capital expense reserves, all of that. Here's how much income we needed. Here's how much we have and we're in. We're pretty good there. So the next step for us is do, is let's, let's make sure this foundation, this castle, that we've, we've built, can't be taken down and there's no guarantees in life, but some of the ways that could happen would be debt that's that's the main way I've seen people mess up their real estate careers in the past. So either stabilizing the debt, getting longer term debt, low interest rates, making sure that stabilize and making sure we have enough cash reserves.   And in some cases just paying the debt off, even with, even if that doesn't make sense from a growth standpoint, that's more of the ambition we're having of the next few years, what we might sell a property there that is not an ideal property. And in the past we would do a 10 31 exchange or something into another property. Some cases we're just paying the tax and paying, paying another set of debt off on that property. So that's, that's kind of where we are. That's our ambition. And then also just trying to help other people do the same thing on a kind of that small and mighty scale.   Jesse (27m 4s): I like that small mighty, but I mean, it makes sense too. It's, you know, when you're talking about it might not be as an attractive return, you know, if you're not doing a syndication or you don't have investors, it really is not as big of a deal. You're not, you don't have a fiduciary obligation to them. It sounds like up to now, you've, you've worked with partners or bootstrapped the, the financing side of it is that, is that pretty much how you've done it to date?   Chad (27m 27s): Yeah, we primarily have done private capital, but just very simple private capital. Like we had a, an professor of mine at Clemson when I first met him, one of our first deals, he would loan us the money. And I, he actually didn't realize that at the time I learned that you could do a self-directed retirement account where you, instead of just investing in stocks and bonds and things like that, there's these kind of boutique custodians who allow you to make loans to other people against real estate or buy a limited shares and syndications, for example. And so I showed him that he could do that and he was like, oh, that's interesting.   Well, what do you want me to do with it? And I said, well, how about you loan me money for this flip that I'm doing and I'll pay you 10% interest. And he said, that sounds good. Okay. And he said, you're going to do all the work. I said, yes, I'll do all the work is so it started off that way. And then we sort of branched out and eventually said, well, we don't want to flip it anymore. We just want to hold these properties. And so we can't pay 10% interest and make that work. So we started just paying 6% interest for most of our deals. And then we would extend the terms out, you know, instead of doing, you know, a one-year term, let's do a 15 year term and have it, have it go longer.   So that that's been a large majority of what we've done is private capital. Often through self-directed retirement accounts, we've done a lot of seller financing where a seller, instead of them selling their property and paying taxes on it, we'll offer to buy their property. And it's often landlords who are just trying to get out of the business and then we can get really attractive, low interest rates with them. And so it's been a mixture of that kind of capital with a little bit of commercial debt as well. And then, so, so when we, when it comes time to pay stuff off though, it's, it's just the person who has a bond, a debt, you know, instead of it, these are me and my business partner are the only equity partners.   We don't have any other, other people who are working with us on that side.   Jesse (29m 8s): No, that's great. You've, you've kind of found a, an in between, right. Between the larger syndication or asset specific capital raising and, and just doing it all on your own in terms of the, so the structure that you have now, you've, you've purchased these properties over the years, and you're now doing coaching and teaching. When it comes to retire early with real estate, the book that you worked with with bigger pockets, how did that come about? And in terms of, you know, putting that out there and, and how long ago was that, that, that the book came out?   Chad (29m 39s): Yeah, it coincided with my family. I were in Ecuador. You mentioned that at the very beginning, we decided to take this sabbatical trip and it was sort of just, it was representative for us that, all right, we're, we're, we've hit a plateau, we've got enough income coming in. There's still work to be done, but we're ethic, we're at a good place. And so we traveled and then our daughters were three and five years old and my wife teaches Spanish. I like, we like foreign languages. So they learned Spanish and enrolled in schools locally. And we just enjoyed living. There, just went to Cuenca Ecuador at the same time though, you know, always thinking of what's next. And I had been writing a blog for bigger pockets or writing on their blog and had my own blog going on.   And, and just, I think I was talking to Brandon Turner. It was some conference and he said, oh, you got to write a book, Chad, just pitch this pitch, the book idea at a bigger pockets. And so that was, you know, a year or two before we went on that sabbatical. But I, I decided to write the book while we were at Ecuador so that everybody else would go to bed, you know, eight, eight or nine o'clock. They put the kids to bed and then I'd write for like an hour or two. And for me, it was just, it was putting into a framework what we had done in our business. So from, I used the metaphor saying, you start at the bottom of a mountain, you're looking up at the top of the mountain.   The top of the mountain is this idea of financial independence. When you have enough wealth to pay all of your personal expenses, whether that's rental income in our case, or if you own stocks or something else. And so I tried to give people several different routes up that mountain, that how do you do that? How do you do your first deal and get that first capital when you don't have a lot of capital or have a lot of knowledge often through house hacking often through, you know, maybe move into a house and then, you know, move out of the house and keep it as a rental or, you know, doing some burrow strategy type deals when you don't have a lot of capital.   And then, but then, you know, moving up the mountain, some of the conversations we've had here, like how do you get to a place where you feel more confident that you can actually live off of your income and actually have a, have time, have free time to do things. So I talked about some of those strategies and having backup plans to your backup plans, you don't have side hustles and things that would make them make you some extra revenue. So it was sort of a, it was a blueprint type book, but then it was also, I interviewed, I think it was 700. I did a survey of 700 people who were aspiring for financial independence or had already achieved it.   And then I profiled 25 of them who are at different levels of their real estate journey. And just talk to ask practical questions, like how many properties do you have? How much income do you need to retire? And so it's all these kinds of financial independence, retirement oriented questions. And I told their stories kind of in between the chapters of the blueprint that I've put together in the book.   Jesse (32m 6s): And how long ago was that, that that book   Chad (32m 8s): Came out 2018 was when it was published.   Jesse (32m 10s): So definitely, definitely still topical in terms of the, the process. I'm always curious, you said your you're writing it when you were away. I imagine it was a lot of work. How was the tactical process of writing the book?   Chad (32m 25s): Yeah, I started with a big outline and, you know, as, as a blogger and you're a podcaster, I think we have content that we put out there where, where idea, we're always putting ideas together. So I had a lot of ideas in mind, but it's a pretty grueling in terms of yeah, just researching and get it. You know, I wrote probably 120,000 words for a book that ended up being 65,000 words, you know? So you cut like half of it out and had friends read it and say, yeah, that sucks. You don't want to do that. You know? And it says the brutal process is not, I mean, writing on a computer is one thing, but just the, the reflective process of putting your ideas out into the world and having them, you know, critiqued, thirdly, stomped on and beat up.   You know, I think my linebacker training was probably the best training I could have had for that, just because I had football coaches who would just scream at you and yell at you. And, and so the end, the end result though, you hope is, you know, it could always be better, but that the end result of that is very satisfying when you get it out there. And the good thing about publishing with bigger pockets, who I know you're you're involved with as well, is that they have a platform. They have people who are interested in the book. So the marketing, the marketing side of things is not my strength. And so I like the writing. I like the teaching. I like sharing, but marketing yourself and putting yourself out there as a whole nother strategy than writing the book.   And that was fortunate that that BiggerPockets could help me on that side.   Jesse (33m 49s): I'm always curious when we have individuals that have written books and what their style was, was it actually pen to paper every day? Was it, you know, modifying transcripts of, like you said, content that they already have, and, you know, I guess everybody's a little different in terms of what their strengths are.   Chad (34m 5s): Yeah. I was just, you know, I had the outline, I had, I had content out there, but it was just every day. I think I read this from Stephen King or somebody like that. I just said, you just got to make a goal, even if it's, even if it's not good that day, just like write 700 words or a thousand words or whatever it is, and just get it out on the, on the computer. And I did type it up. I think I used the Google doc and just had that going for a long time. Now I am pen to paper type person too. Like I love doing my mapping and I'll, if I have ideas for the chapter, I'll sorta mind map that out and draw it out, you know, on a, on a non-digital non-connected type a world.   Cause I had to think clearer, they're usually in the morning or late at night, but that's where the best thinking goes on. But then when you, you gotta just had that, that deep work time of, you know, two to three hours at a time of just knock it out, type something, get it on the paper and this chick away at it, you know, a little bit by little bit by little bit.   Jesse (34m 58s): Yeah, absolutely. Well, I thought we changed gears a little here in terms of where we're at in the market right now. We talked again about this when we were on our panel, you have a particularly particular view of, of where you think the market is right now when it comes to very topical inflation and interest rates. I know, you know, nobody's got a crystal ball here, but how are you preparing for the next year or two for the short term, you know, aside from what you've said about de-risking, but your thoughts on that and, and I guess generally your view on where interest rates are at and where you feel inflation may or may not be.   Chad (35m 33s): Yeah. I mean, if I had to vote or bet on something, which I'm not a great bet betting person, but I would, I would bet inflation's going to be continue to be more of the topic for awhile and at least for a couple of years. So I'm, you know, I, there's not a lot of preparation for me on that side of things, because a lot of our portfolio already, we have some debt still. We have assets that we feel are in really good locations that have long-term potential. So I just, I, I feel like we're in an, all of you who are listening to this, if you're one of the reasons you should be investing in real estate, is it, this is one of the best assets for an inflationary period.   And the other message that I think is so important, but if you're in, if you're in the growth phase for what, wherever you are, whether you're just early in your career as an individual investor, or if you're in the syndication world, the best formula I've ever heard of an investing for inflation is that you buy these assets that go up in value over time because they're good, well located. And you buy a property that has an unleveraged deal of let's say six or 7%. And then you borrow money at 3%. And your cost of capital is three. If you have a margin of three to 4% between what you can produce an income and what it costs you to borrow money, and then that property's going to get better and better over time.   I think that is such an incredible basic formula to build wealth because you are lucky, especially if you can lock that interest rate in for a long period of time. Now that you're, it's only getting better over time. And that's, I kind of keep that in mind in terms of just, it's almost like football, you know, this has simple, simple plays that work well on any market. And that's a simple play borrow for a lower cost than what your property produces by in a good location that has some dynamics of supply demand that are in your favor over the long run, and then just be a buy and hold investor and wait, just be patient you don't, if you get the more you can be flexible on when you exit, then you can be more optimal about, you know, knowing that it's going to happen at some point, but we don't know if it's gonna be three years or five years or 20 years, but we're going to be, be patient enough to get there   Jesse (37m 28s): In terms of unleveraged year, a yield. Just, just so listeners are clear when you talk about unleveraged yield, we're talking about the cap rate for the property, or are you factoring in debt with that yield? Yes,   Chad (37m 39s): But like a cap rate. And I guess I use leverage yield instead of cap rate, because I used to always use cap rate online on my YouTube videos and a couple of like nitpicky people are pointing out that well, that's not exactly what a cap rate is. You know, use a cap rate to value a property or what I'm S what I'm saying is, is an internal metric. This is just, let's just look at this and leverage yield. Let's take all of our expenses, our operating expenses, management, maintenance taxes, insurance, let's take capital expense reserves, whatever we need to make sure we've covered all of our outflows of cash what's leftover when that's all said and done, except for excluding your mortgage payment.   That's, that's what I'm saying. I actually like   Jesse (38m 14s): That term better unleveraged yield or operating yields, because it kind of gets away from this. What I've heard the term. I can't remember who's who coined it, but a suitcase words and cap rate is definitely a suitcase word. It means a million different things to different people. If you're the investor, the broker, the buyer, the seller, you know, and you just hit it right there, even with cap reserves, right? How do we, how do we factor those in some people do it differently? So that makes sense. I mean, you're looking at, from an interest rate perspective, from a risk standpoint, if we could do fix, we do fix, if we can make sure that that yield is higher than the interest rate, it's not rocket science.   You know, the question is finding those properties. Yeah.   Chad (38m 54s): Yeah. And that's, that's the, that's a whole nother thing, but it's, it's we started talking about the market, like, how does the market effect that this is a competitive market? So finding those deals is certainly challenging, but I know when I first started investing in 2004, three and four, we're just not that long ago. Right. It was the interest rates were higher, even then I thought interest rates were low, but you knew there were five or 6%. Now they're three or 3%. I mean, that's, that's incredible. So yes, it is more competitive. Yes. The yields have gone down, but with the right properties and the right markets, that's where we, as operators can really set ourselves apart.   We can find those value, add opportunities. We can find those little pockets of opportunity within our market, in my market. For example, Clemson is my, my main little town, but I think some of the better opportunities, and these are these little small towns, right next, next to the Clemson central and Pendleton and Seneca. Nobody's gonna know what those mean if they're not in my market, but if you're, I think that's my challenge to everybody is try to find ways in this market to do the opposite or go the different direction from what other people are doing. How does it, when the competition's digs, how can you zag?   How can you do something different? And that often is with locations, which is finding those little pocket locations. Sometimes it's with different asset classes. Like I do residential multiunit, but you know, maybe mobile homes are the thing in my area, or maybe there's a self storage, or, I mean, I'm not saying that you should just jumped ship on your, your strategy, but being open to different competitive advantages, I think is what we're all having to do right now.   Jesse (40m 24s): Yeah, for sure. Well, we have final four questions that we ask everybody that comes on the show, but before we, before we get there, I'd love to chat a little bit about what you do on the YouTube channel and how you kinda got into that side of, of really just coaching and, you know, hence coach Carson. But yeah. How did that come about?   Chad (40m 45s): Well, it started as a, as a written thing. So I was a blogger and I actually, well before, even before that, I did coaching locally. So I actually don't do a lot of coaching. Now. It's more like coaching through the YouTube videos, through podcasts, through, through a course online course that I teach, but it would really wish it's starting one-on-one with people locally in my market. And they're saying, Hey, how do I find a deal chat? How do I analyze a deal? And so I would just do it, you know, at a local real estate meetup and show them on the back of a napkin or a back of an envelope. Here's how you do it. Here's what I'm doing. And it was just that, that love of teaching, I guess, that kind of made it so that I was like, I just want to share this more publicly.   And I met the bigger packets guys, Josh and Brandon started writing for them, start writing my own blog. And I wrote so many articles that nobody looked at it. It was just like, I'm really glad they did because they were not that good at the time. But I think whether you're YouTube or podcasts blogger, you just got to love the process of teaching and sharing and ideas in general. And so for me, it grew from that to a blog, which was great. I could write it on my own, turned into a book, the podcast game, just because the people who happen to be reading my blog all were asking me, Hey, I like listening to podcasts and I'd rather do that than read it all the time.   So I started doing that and then YouTube has been spend kind of a recent passion. I've had a YouTube channel for awhile, but I think it's a more challenging medium in some respects, because you have the video, you've got the, you have people's attention. Span is a lot shorter on YouTube. Unfortunately with the podcasts, you know, people are washing dishes or exercising or something. So you have their attention a little bit longer YouTube, but man, if you, if you're not doing something good, they're out, you know, there's skipping, let's get outta here. So I'm still a rookie in this respect. But a lot of my style there is kind of a tutorial driven.   I'm trying to use a little whiteboard and show, you know, they look over my shoulder. Here's how I would run the numbers. Here's an, here's what an unleveraged yield needs. Here's how you calculate cashflow or here's a story about a deal I did. This is my first rental property. And here were the numbers in the beginning. Here's how it changed over time. Here's my spreadsheet I use. So it gives me the ability, like a podcast is a good conversation media, but a YouTube is more of an instructional tutorial based. And I've really enjoyed that, that aspect of it as well.   Jesse (42m 53s): Yeah. And I find the thing with YouTube as well. It's the more challenging thing, at least for me, it's the consistency of putting episodes out. Like when you're you got a podcast, you know, you have a, you have a call with somebody today. You got to be there that other person's going to be there when it comes to YouTube to kind of self-start cause you can outsource a lot of things. It's very difficult to outsource your face in front of a camera.   Chad (43m 13s): Yeah. We haven't figured that one out yet, but that's also what makes it special. Like I think YouTube is so cool and that it's basically taking down the big media networks. Like it's, it, it is more popular. There's more views. And who are the people who are creating? Yes, there's some big names out there, but it's just like the Chad Carson who's check cars. They want to know what it is he have to do with anything. Nobody gave him permission to give content. And the only reason, the reason that we are doing that out there is that people are voting with their views. And that, that is, that's a cool concept. That to me is like, it's the, it's the epitome of the internet, but it's also on a large scale with YouTube that people are choosing to sit down in front of their TV or the computer or their phone and watch these no name creators who are producing good content and then they vote for it.   And then YouTube has an algorithm that shares that with other people because people are voting with their, with their watch time. And that's, that's pretty, that's pretty amazing.   Jesse (44m 4s): Yeah, absolutely. No, for sure. It's a, it's definitely a great medium, especially for on the instruction front. All right, Chad, we got four questions. We ask everybody that comes on the show. So if you're ready for those, I'll, I'll send them your way. All right. Let's do it. All right. What's something that, you know, now in your career could be business real estate that you wish you knew when you first started out.   Chad (44m 25s): Yeah. The numbers are not everything. When you analyze a rental property or any kind of property, I was so enamored with the numbers early on and you know, I'm a spreadsheet nerd. I'm sure a lot of real estate investors are that I would just get enamored with. Oh, look at this cap rate, look at this internal rate of return. Look at this cashflow potential. And I ignored the other half of that coin, which is the kind of qualitative metrics of that property of location, of desirability, of long-term potential, you know, opportunity to add value to the property.   And so I, I missed, I missed on some opportunities, but I also put too much weight into some properties that had, they were they had a good cashflow for a reason. They were in a bad location and the next door neighbor was dealing drugs. You know? So it's like, I, I learned the hard way early in my career about that, but I said, there's a more balanced approach now to saying, yes, I got to have metrics that make sense, but I also need to have those metrics are driven by real world human beings who choose to live in a place for a certain reason, let's start with a human being. And then let's just use the metrics that sort of control my emotional irrational impulses.   That's the, the, the, the metrics are just to kind of keep me in check.   Jesse (45m 35s): Yeah. That's a great answer. Couldn't agree more with that. All right. In terms of somebody that's getting into our industry, what would, what advice would you give them and just generally your view on, on mentorship.   Chad (45m 46s): I think you need to love the process. And I don't mean like, you know, this is real estate investing has been your passion for all your life, but I do mean that if, if you, if you're doing it, just because it seems lucrative or seems like it's a place to make a lot of money, like that's fine. Like making money is great. We all should make money, but you gotta have something that really draws you to this business. And for me, it was like running the numbers. It's really interesting to me that I sort of tapped into something that was, that I just enjoy doing. I enjoy the communication and the human side of things.   The negotiations are really fun for me. I almost feel like it's a puzzle piece that you get to put together. So, you know, I, I, I had a, I almost have a bad habit of just doing deals because I just loved the, the deal, you know, let's put the deal together, you know? And so that's, I think going back to a new person, who's getting into the business, find a piece of the business that you love, whether that's the remodeling side of things, the am analysis side of things, the negotiation side, or multiple, and to stick with that, like get really good at that. Find that kind of intersection of what you're passionate about, what you're good at and what a need in the marketplace is.   And if you just stick with that, it's focused on that. The rest I think will take care of itself. That's great.   Jesse (46m 56s): All right. Number three, aside from your book retire early with real estate, or what book recommendations are you constantly giving out again and again that you could share with listeners?   Chad (47m 7s): Yeah. This is a oldie classic book, seven habits of highly effective people. I just, I was fortunate enough to read that right after I was getting out of college. And it's one of those books that, you know, the first three habits are just personal habits, like being proactive, putting first things first, you're just learned about personal effectiveness and planning. The second three habits are all about interpersonal communications. So how to, you know, think win-win make sure that the person's winning and you're winning listen first, don't seek always like, get your first word in.   So there's just some core, like really good principles that I I've re-read that book like 10 times every time I reread it, I'm getting other little kind of layered benefits from it. So highly recommend that one.   Jesse (47m 49s): Yeah. I guess every time there's, there's more nuance that you get out of that book. All right. Last question. My softball first car make and model   Chad (47m 58s): First car make a bottle. This is a Toyota Camry, 1995 model cloth Gracie. And, you know, drove that to high school, drove that to college. It was actually, this is a funny story. When I started my real estate, this is, I still had that car and I put, I was trying to find deals and I put these noxious vinyl signs all over the side of my car saying like we buy houses and here's my phone number. And it was sort of a, it's sort of a turning point for me. I was embarrassed. I was like, God, this is horrible.   I've putting these all in my car, drove away one girlfriend who was like, ah, you're not, I really don't want to be around being around you. But then I was a kind of a filter for my next girlfriend who became my wife because she's like, oh, whatever, that's fine with me. But the cool thing about that for me, that that car was, I owned it free and clear. And then I put a sign on top of it that I made cost me 300 bucks to put the signs on there. And I ended up buying a property every year for like five years that made me, you know, minimum five, 10 grand per property off of this marketing that it, so this car was like a money machine did really well.   Jesse (49m 4s): I think that's the best answer to that question that we've had on the show. That's, that's pretty good. Awesome. In terms of where people can reach out to you aside from a quick Google search, where can they go, Chad?   Chad (49m 16s): Yeah, my, my home base online coach carson.com. That's where you can find my podcast. Although you can search for my podcast on any of the podcast players out there, apple, Spotify, those as well. And then of course on YouTube, if you search for me on YouTube, we'd love to hear from you. Please leave me a comment on YouTube or somewhere. Always like to hear your story and, and respond to that. And what would enjoy connecting it with you somewhere online?   Jesse (49m 38s): My guest today has been Chad coach Carson. Chad, thanks for being part of working capital.   Chad (49m 42s): Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jesse. This has been a lot of fun.   Jesse (49m 52s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Start Somewhere
#9 How to create a better everyday - with Jesper Brodin

Start Somewhere

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2021 20:28


Today on the Start Somewhere COP26 Climate Emergency Special, I get to speak to the visionary business leader, Jesper Brodin, President and CEO of Ingka Group, IKEA. IKEA is one of the world's largest home furnishing retailers and owns and operates more than 400 stores in 32 markets.Born and raised on the Swedish west coast, Jesper grew up with an appreciation for nature and the sea. It was while working as a regional Purchasing Manager for IKEA in Pakistan, he found his passion for creating ‘a better everyday', both for people and the planet. In this episode, we hear from Jesper about what IKEA is doing to encourage responsible production and consumption in the face of the climate crisis, why he believes equitable representation at the decision-making table is a no brainer and what consumers can do to Start Somewhere. Top Tip: We're all responsible for sharing the earth's resources. We can all Start Somewhere and change our lifestyles and home. This way we collectively make a massive difference. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Mises Ljud
209: Föregå med gott exempel

Mises Ljud

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2021 5:11


"Statens ideologier förleder dumma människor och fördärvar smarta människor." Jesper funderar på hur kan man ta sig fram i ett sådant samhälle som libertarian. https://www.mises.se/2021/10/27/45648/

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Building Wealth from Rentals with Ashley Kehr | EP77

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2021 47:07


Ashley Kehr Holds Degrees in Financing and Public Accounting and is a License Insurance Agent. She Purchased Her First Rental Property in 2014 and since then has Grown her Buy and Hold Portfolio Consisting of Residential Property, Commercial Property and Mobile Home Parks. Ashley is also the co-host of the BiggerPockets Real Estate Rookie Podcast with a Goal to help Newbies figure out the Actionable Steps Necessary to get their first deal. Currently, Ashley lives near Buffalo, NY on a Dairy Farm with her husband and three boys. She Spends most of her time Educating New Investors, Analyzing deals, Seeking the Next Adventure, and living a spontaneous life. In this episode we talked about: Ashley's Bio & Background Property Management The First Duplex Deal Investing in Mobile Home Parks A Pivot to Camp Grounds The Underwriting for Camp Grounds Regulatory Environment The Philosophy of the Trade-off between Potential Income and Value Real Estate Risks and Opportunities in the Next 2 years Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.instagram.com/wealthfromrentals/?hl=en Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Ashley Kerr. Ashley holds degrees in finance and public accounting and is a licensed insurance agent.   She purchased her first rental property in 2014 and has since grown her buy and hold portfolio consisting of residential property, commercial property and mobile home parks. Ashley is also the cohort cohost of the bigger pockets, real estate rookie podcast with a goal to help newbies in real estate, figure out the actual steps necessary to get their first deal. Currently. Ashley, we just talked about this. You live near Buffalo, New York on a dairy farm of all things with your husband and three boys. How are you doing   Ashley (1m 2s): Good. Thank you so much for having   Jesse (1m 3s): Me right on. So I guess just on that, on that point, you are in Buffalo, so we're probably just a two hour drive away from each other. The dairy farm is that that's a family run thing or?   Ashley (1m 15s): Yeah, so my husband's family, he's third generation. And basically when I moved out of my parents' house, I moved to here and lived down the pharmacist.   Jesse (1m 25s): I love it. We were just chatting before the show. I'm kind of on the heels of, of BP con in new Orleans. Ashley was, you were speaking on a panel, you mentioned before. It was a panel of, I guess, women in real estate. Is that correct?   Ashley (1m 40s): It was all about women that have succeeded in real estate and their advice to inspire other women to get started.   Jesse (1m 49s): Awesome. Great. Well, like they can attest to the fact that we had a great time out there. Didn't cross paths at this time, but maybe next year at next BB con.   Ashley (2m 0s): Yeah, definitely. I there's so many people there so many awesome people to me, it's hard to even get from point a to B because you just run into people. Maybe you met online or people you wanted to meet or just, you know, somebody that comes up to you that heard your story. Yeah.   Jesse (2m 15s): I couldn't agree more Ashley for our listeners that don't know you have a really great presence online, Instagram kind of showcases some of the stuff you're doing, but for those that don't don't know your background, could you give us a little bit of a background of, you know, how you started out, how you got into this world of real estate that we, that we all love?   Ashley (2m 36s): Yeah, of course I, so when I graduated college, I got married and I started working at a CPA firm and I was going to get licensed as a CPA and just work as an accountant. Well, I lasted about six months and I really hated it. So I ended up quitting my job and I was just going to be a stay at home mom. I was going to get pregnant, have babies and live on the farm. Well, about two weeks into my unemployment, my friend's dad approached me and he had a 40 unit apartment complex that he wanted me to run for him.   And so I agreed I could do it from home. It would be part-time. And basically from there, I grew a property management company for himself, for him and all of his properties. It ended up being about 80 residential and about 20 commercial properties that I was managing for him. So to start my first deal, I actually approached his son and said, look what your dad is doing. We should do this. And we bought our first duplex in 2014. And that was how I got started.   Just kind of watching somebody else learning from him and working for him. I gained a lot of experience and knowledge.   Jesse (3m 49s): That's incredible. And that was only, I mean, 2014, right? Not too long ago. Yeah. So in terms of basically saying here's a 40 unit apartment, what were the details, was that, was that something local that you could do or was it, you know, it wasn't across state lines.   Ashley (4m 6s): Yeah, it was right in the town, you know, 10 minutes from my house as in the town that I had gone to high school. And so I knew the town very well. It was very convenient to get to. And I started off with a small little office there that I could go to if need be. And actually just my first day was the first of the month. It was April 1st, 2013. And so all the rent checks are coming in and I was like so nervous that I wasn't going to track them properly. That all 40 checks that came in, I actually photocopied all of them before I actually deposited them.   And I spent pretty much, it took me, I think like full two full years to actually build out my systems and processes for property management. But it was definitely a learning experience. I ripped my hair out a lot. I cried and life is much better now not doing property management. I ended up outsourcing property management to a third party in February, 2020. So I gave up the property management on my properties and also with the same investor. So now I just do asset management for both of us.   Jesse (5m 11s): Was there a reason that a, that person had had come to you for managing that, that 40 unit? Or was it just happenstance?   Ashley (5m 21s): I actually grew up next door to him, his daughter and I were best friends growing up. And I actually went on vacation with their family when I had just quit my job just because I had nothing else to do. And I that's where they were talking about who needs help. And I think there was kind of this mindset. They had that because I was an accountant. I was capable of managing and running a building, which really wasn't true. I could do the bookkeeping for it. But as far as I had to spend a lot of time learning the rules, the regulations and stuff like that and how to make it actually run efficiently.   So, but that was really just it. The, it was more his wife and his kids like pushing him. You need somebody to help you. And so I ended up doing a lot of admin stuff for him too in personal assistant stuff. And then he brought me in an all these projects. I helped him build a 40,000 square foot dealership. I helped him purchase a dealership. I helped him start an insurance agency. So I'm so grateful for him, for him because he brought me in on so many opportunities that a lot of people don't have that I guess, advantage.   Jesse (6m 32s): Yeah, for sure. It's like the school of hard knocks for a few real estate. So property management is, is one of those professions where it's, it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot it's can be a very stressful job. And usually when you're doing a great job of it, nobody calls you and says, Hey, you're doing a great job. So usually you get the call when there's an issue. How did you, well, I guess first, when did you realize that that was something maybe you didn't want to do at least you personally doing for, for long-term and, and w was there a light bulb moment that, you know, you came across that you, you thought, Hey, let's, let's go buy real estate.   Like you're talking about.   Ashley (7m 8s): Yeah, actually the light bulb moment was when I helped him purchase the dealership. So I saw how he was purchasing a business and what he was doing was taking his properties that he owned and refinancing them, pulling the equity out. And he was able to make a cash offer on this business and purchase it. And I still remember sitting in the attorney's office at the closing table and he had had me set up the LLC. He had had me set up the bank account and I was the one signing that huge check that was given at the closing table.   And just the fact that he put that pen in my hand and had me write that check. I had never even seen a check that big of a month before I think really had an impact on me. And I saw like the power of the real estate that he had and how he used the equity to further advance his investments. So that was the biggest aha moment for me.   Jesse (8m 4s): Yeah. And you kind of got the, I mean, learning by osmosis by you actually doing it, but it's kind of like, I, at least I see it as there's that psychological barrier for a lot of people, as you know, with, with our industry, but you basically being the proxy, they're signing the check for him that I've, I probably broke down some psychological barriers about who can or can't buy real estate at that scale.   Ashley (8m 26s): Yeah, definitely. And even he had me do all of his financing. So anytime he went and got loans, I was in charge of that. I did all that. I worked with banks and that also helped me build a network of loan officers too, because I was super diligent about being timely in responding to loan officers, getting them what they wanted and working with them. And they liked that working relationship. And so when I started investing myself, I had a lot of loan officers that were very eager to work with me because they knew that I would provide to them what they needed to make the loan work.   Jesse (9m 2s): Yeah. Attention to detail and, and staying on top of them that didn't know traits that would explain or describe a CPA there. Yeah. So in terms of you, you pivoting to, or moving on to saying here's an opportunity that you think that you and this investor that you worked with that would purchase it, how did that property come along? What was that deal like?   Ashley (9m 24s): So I started talking to my, the investor son, just putting a little bug in his ear. Like, I think we should do this. And actually the first property that I found, I sent it to him. I said, I think this is the one we should buy. And we went and looked at it and we put an offer. It was accepted. And so he brought the money, he had savings that was going to be the cash offer on the property and how we structured. It was, we became 50 50. So I would do the property management, manage the remodel and do all the leasing.   And then he was the money guy. But also what we did was to make it less risky for him. He also received a monthly principal and interest payment every month. So he was making five and a half percent on his money. It was amortized over 15 years. And then he was getting 50% of the equity in the property and 50% of the cashflow and the property too. So it was a very, I guess, a good offer for him because it was less risky because he was tied into it so much in getting all this benefit from it.   And for me, it was just a way for me to get started, look like right now, I would never do that deal with anyone, but looking back like that got me started. And I I'm super grateful   Jesse (10m 43s): For that. And was that a, was that a local deal?   Ashley (10m 47s): Yeah, so it was in the same town where I was managing the, the apartment complexes and we stuck in that town for, I think our first three deals. And then for our fourth one, we ended up venturing into the city more and then starting to spread out.   Jesse (11m 2s): So in terms of you, you started in this, this duplex, you said for this first deal, and now, you know, just kind of touching on that. That's not a deal you would do now, but how has that growth to the second deal? Was it, was it zero to one or was it one to 10? Like how did, what was the type of deal that you did after that? Duplex,   Ashley (11m 21s): After the duplex was another duplex and it was actually on the same street, just a couple houses down and it went up for sale and my partner ended up putting a line of credit on his house and that's how we, we use that money to purchase the second one. And then we ended up doing a portfolio loan, putting a mortgage on both of them pulling the cash out of them. And that's how we purchased our third home right around the corner too. So we bought three just within a couple blocks of each other.   Jesse (11m 49s): Very cool. So in terms of over the, I guess now, well it's seven years, a little bit, almost eight over that process. You've, you've obviously ventured out to other areas in commercial real estate. Well, what was that process like? It was, there was this, it sounds like at the beginning, at least it was a gradual thing, but was there another, whether you call it a hot moment or was there a big leap in saying, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to try my hand at this, you know, this asset class or moving out into larger deals.   Ashley (12m 18s): Yeah. At first I was very focused on duplexes, small multifamily. The largest I bought in the beginning was a six unit. And then the smallest was a duplex. And I, I was really focused on that and I really became very confident and comfortable purchasing in my market on those properties. So a lot of people ask if I still consider myself a rookie, if I'm purchasing a small multifamily my market. No, I don't. I think I'm very experienced in that. Any other kind of investing? Yes, definitely in that.   So I, I stuck with that and then I ended up just having this opportunity to buy this mixed use commercial building and the investor that I worked for. He owned a liquor store and I saw the power of his liquor store and just the uniqueness of it. And it could be a cash cow and just kind of diversify your portfolio. And so I ended up buying my first commercial building, where I put the, the liquor store in that building. And that was my first kind of different strategy than I went after since then.   So that building finished in 2020, we opened up the liquor store in November, 2020, since then I have been like all over the place, especially hosting a podcast is so bad for my shiny object syndrome because I hear all these things that are like, I just want to do that. They're like sounds awesome. All these different things. So I spent a lot of time going after self storage, mobile home parks and campgrounds. And I recently went to four conferences back to back and I finally have realized that I'm going to focus on campgrounds.   I do have a mobile home park under contract, which I'm going to continue with that. It's a sweet deal. I did have a self storage under contract, but it fell through because the seller wouldn't do a phase two environmental study. Yeah. So the phase one recommended it and the owner said no. So I falling out of contract on that one. And then I'm working on getting a campground under contract now. But I think my big aha moment as to why I was focusing on campgrounds is I had a couple of people talk to me during the conference and really like point out to me what I'm struggling with.   And point out facts, such as look at all the successful investors I'm friends with. He said, look at your network. Are all of them going after like three big asset classes right now? And the answer was no, they're all focused on one. Maybe they started out focused on something like I started out focused multifamily, but then now I'm pivoting. I have that down. I have that strategy, you know, set it's running smoothly and now I can pivot on onto something else, but you don't see these experienced successful investors going after three or four large strategies at once and seeing what will work.   And then the second aha moment for me was I was telling somebody about this campground that I was offering on. And he was like, that's, that's it. And I was like, what are you talking about? I know I want to offer. And he's like, no, that's what you're excited about. He was like, you just spewed off so many different random facts and stats and all this stuff. When you've talked about self storage, your mobile home park, it's just like, oh yeah, I got a mobile home park under contract. Like you don't have that excitement. So that was a big aha moment for me too, was that I'm actually excited about investing in campus.   Jesse (15m 39s): So leading up to campgrounds, which I want to talk about because we, we don't, I don't think we've ever really gone into detail at all on the show, in terms of that process, that takes you from the first few investments to where you're doing these, you know, more commercial side of the business deals. How, how did that develop from the team point of view in terms of networking with other people or having other people influence the decisions you made for those future properties?   Ashley (16m 6s): Yeah. So up until this mobile home park that I have on our contract, I had never paid more than $152,000 on a property. And that was my sixth unit. Everything else had been below that. So my mobile home park is $750,000. That is a huge like jump for me. And that was like a huge mindset shift for me to get over that hurdle because I'd never even spent close to that amount of money or looked for that amount of money.   I've always done well with creative financing and finding money, but to find that much money was like, like nerve wracking. But I spent the last year and probably if you would have talked to me two months ago, I wouldn't even have realized this yet, but I spent the last year doing so much networking. There's a group of people. It next month will be our sixth time meeting up for various events or different things. And I think just talking with them, seeing what they're doing has really kind of helped me eliminate a lot of my limited mindset and knowing that I can achieve these things, I am capable of doing this.   And if I work hard enough, I'm going to find a way I'm not going to give up. And so that definitely helped just seeing what these other people are doing. I even had a James Dainer and he's an investor from Seattle and he runs a very successful company. He endangered, he actually let me come and job shadow him for three days. And I just got to like, see the inner workings of his mind. I got to sit in in all his meetings and that was so awesome. And it's such a cool opportunity. So if anyone is trying to, like, you feel stuck, reach out to people in your network and just go and watch what they're doing and see it.   And it's, it's definitely motivating. I get so pumped up after I surround myself with other investors.   Jesse (17m 59s): Yeah, for sure. And I mean it to the conferences or, you know, speaking with other like-minded individuals, even at, at BB con when we were in new Orleans, it is I think a relative thing where people, I hope that when listeners hear, you know, $20 million, $40 million deal it's, there is that aspect of like, it is relative. There was a, there was a point where, you know, somebody jumping from a million to $5 million or 100,000 to 500,000 or less is, you know, for that person, it's five times what they've done before 10 times, what they've done before.   But I feel like once you do that enough times, you get that aspect of, oh, wait a minute. It really is that the concepts are the same. The deals are bigger, right?   Ashley (18m 40s): 'cause, you're getting like the same ratio of compare, like your, your rental income to the purchase price. Like if that ratio is still the same, who cares if it's a hundred thousand dollars property or, you know, a $1 million property, I guess. Yeah.   Jesse (18m 55s): I find the way I conceptualize the moving from, you know, your first property or second property, not really, I guess more so when you move from certain size of properties, to me, there's a category of one you can continue to bootstrap and then another, you have to raise external capital. Right. And, and what that inflection point is, is going to be different on the individual, right. You know, if you're one or two individuals, there's a certain level where you cannot afford to purchase that property, unless you create a structure where you're raising capital.   And I'm curious for yourself that 700,000, you mentioned creative financing. Did you underwrite it from a pure debt point of view and put in your own capital, or was that something where you had to create a vehicle where you were raising capital?   Ashley (19m 41s): So I spent all my money on real estate. So I have no money. I actually did two offers to the seller. I did one where I'd go and just get a commercial loan to purchase the property. And then I did one at seller financing and I did the seller financing at his asking price. And I said, you know, I'm willing to negotiate on terms. And he told me, I knew $2,500 a month. So I took, and I amortized the loan over 25 years at three and a half percent.   And that came out to $2,500 a month. And so I got a nice interest rate, a long-term loan, and then he needed, he's actually, he lives on the property. So he's actually moving off the property and he's building a house. So he needed some money for that to build the house. So I am putting some money down on the property, but I actually sold a property. And that's, what's going to fund that down payment.   Jesse (20m 41s): There you go. So that's creative. It's funny, you mentioned that one deal that didn't go through because you had the phase two environmental where, you know, there are all these strategies that you can use where we have a property right now that we have contamination on it. And it's really a matter of, of remediation. And part of their creative strategy, most likely will be a purchaser that comes along where we have to do, you know, a short seller financing or VTB on it to get it, you know, get the environmental assessment. But again, like, it's really just a matter of thinking outside of the box. And I'm sure you, as an accountant, you're like, okay, 2,500, we'll figure out what numbers those need to be to make that payment happen.   Ashley (21m 17s): Yeah. As soon as he said that, I got like excited inside and I was like my smile and be like, okay, well, how about if we did it this?   Jesse (21m 27s): So if we were to pivot to the campgrounds, this is something that, I mean, I don't know a lot about, I know we had Brandon on talking more about, you know, mobile, mobile home parks seem to continue to be the trend. Obviously multifamily is on fire, but yeah, for, for a complete newbie campgrounds, how did you come across them? And, and why do you get so excited when you, when you, when you're talking about?   Ashley (21m 54s): So I actually came across this campground that was close to me for sale. It was actually on LoopNet. And I found that the day was listen, I got to be the first person to go and see it. And the older gentleman that owned it, he took me through the whole property, along with my broker. And just like, I could see so much value add and all these different revenue streams just popping out at me. And so that's what really got my interest. And like, my family had cam when we were younger, my parents still have an RV.   We have like family land that we turned into, like a private campground, I guess. But so I have some experience in that and I love the outdoors and camping, all these different things, but just walking through that property and seeing the potential, like just even Wade whacking, the property was going to add so much value. The basketball net had like rocks or something, like holding it down and I wasn't even faced the right way. And just like all these things just super easy improvements could increase the value of it.   The second thing that really enticed me about that property was that there, I think there was 164 sites and about 120 of those were seasonal. So people came in in the spring and this was in Buffalo. So campgrounds are closed in the winter, but they came in, in the spring, left their camper there, they paid a seasonal rate. And then they came and picked up in the fall. And that really limits the daily check-in checkout, which I kind of liked that model a lot more because I'd like to stay away from as much operation as possible. So I offered on that property.   Hannah was like my biggest offer after it was 1.4 million and they were asking 1.5 and they had me go through, I was getting bank financing on that. And they had me go through a bunch of hurdles, like sending them so much stock to make sure I was really a qualified buyer. And then they ended up getting an offer from a capital group out of Los Angeles that beat me out. They did offer 1.5 million and they ended up getting it, but it made like the Buffalo news and stuff that this campground was, they stopped taking stop doing showings because there was two competitive offers from a capital group in Los Angeles and local investor, which is me, but that was like, so he got the bug there.   And then I realized like after I lost that on it, like, wow, I was actually, I really enjoyed that. So I started looking a little bit more and reading about different revenue streams. I got a couple of people on the podcast, the real estate Wiki podcast too, who are investing in campgrounds and one that wanted to start investing, but had done a ton of research, had them on the podcast so I can learn some more. And so then from there I found another one and I'm currently trying to get one under contract now.   And I just did a, an episode on the bigger pockets, real estate podcast with David Green. And I mentioned on there that I'm looking for campgrounds and that was released yesterday and already today. I have so many people sending me deals. So anybody else   Jesse (25m 4s): I'm sure. Yeah. It's a, it's a great, you know, selfish or symbiotic. I don't know you want to call it, but where we can, we can have people, we can have guests on we're. I mean, the value, hopefully we're giving is we're, we're getting it in return from having the guest on. And obviously listeners just hearing a boat, like I would never have thought a campgrounds. Now I'm going to look into what's the, what's the Canadian market, like in campgrounds. Just curious. I'm curious though, from the, from the perspective of you come across this, this, this camp brown, you start seeing all the different revenue, potential revenue, streams, the underwriting for a campground obviously, or maybe not obviously, but from my perception, it seems like you're buying a bit more of an operational business.   It's not as much pure real estate, but when you're underwriting it, are you looking at it as a, you know, as somewhat similar to a cap rate, like you're looking at the yields annually, are you looking at which companies that you would need to employ to, to manage the thing? W what did that look like for you being, especially being an accountant where it seems like those types of things would be at the top of the list for you?   Ashley (26m 11s): Yeah. So actually what I did at first was I AIG Osborn had, he has an available a self storage deal analysis calculator. I actually took that. And I use that for that first property that I put an offer in. And I tailored that to like, okay, so he has, you know, the size of the storage units. How many of those units do they have? And then what's the, you know, the monthly rate for that. And I just like, changed it. Okay. There is, you know, 50 full RV hookup sites.   There's maybe 50 with only electric or something. And I just tailored it to kind of fit a campground. So I've been actually working on that because there is not really a template or a calculator to analyze a campground because they're so different. Each one is so unique with what they have to offer and what are those different revenue streams. That's also what entices me, because there's so much different ways you can generate revenue off of a campground.   So for the deal analysis, it's really been, so I'm only offering on my second one, I've analyzed maybe four or five in total now. And I just, I have to completely almost redo the spreadsheet every single time, because they're going to have different expenses. They're going to have a different income streams. So I really just start by making a list of what I think the revenue is. It can generate. And then I'm pulling comps. I'm looking at websites of other RV parks in the area.   And I'm like, okay, what is their daily rate? What's their seasonal rate. A lot of times it even says what they charge for different things. So like one campground had a zip line and ATVs or whatever, and you'd pay like $25 for a day pass, use the activities. Okay, well, I could do that online, and this is what I could charge. So pulling comps on the campgrounds, because that's going to be your competition. People are going to look at what's around, especially the seasonal, because seasonal campers usually don't live that far from where they're parking their camper, usually within an hour, because they're going there on weekends, you know, the days off or even just for a night sometimes, and then commuting bathroom work, blackout work.   The one that I had offered on first at the Mo the owner said, the majority of people there lived within 30 minutes of where they were keeping their campsite. So if they're looking in that area, that's definitely going to be, your competition is looking right there and see what amenities they have, and then kind of figure out the price. It's almost like a, how an appraiser does an appraisal, those do the bedroom, count the bathrooms and then compares them and like, okay, this is the average, this is what I can put that value to that property.   Jesse (29m 4s): It's almost like how many things can we unitize and figure out what those, what those costs are or income is in terms of the, as a complete outsider in this, in this sector. Is there a case for campgrounds? Like, are there situations where the campground you can purchase the business itself, but not the real estate? Or are those always kind of co-mingled   Ashley (29m 28s): No, you definitely can where you do like a land contract, but that would be something that I'm not interested in at all. I like the idea of owning the property. And I joked when I went this recent one I'm offering, I joke that in 10 years, I'm going to pay it off. I'm going to kick everybody out and I'm just going to build my dream house live there.   Jesse (29m 50s): So actually we were on one of the panels that we had in, at the conference we were talking about, well, it was, it was a question for a couple of us on the panel and it was talking about the regulatory environment. And I thought, it'd be interesting to ask you because New York state, I think is probably of all the states, it's probably has a little bit more of regulatory kind of work to get through from a landlord tenant perspective. How, how have you looked at real estate or how has that impacted how you look at real estate, especially in your, in your state?   Ashley (30m 23s): Yeah, so it's definitely not a landlord friendly state, New York by all means. So everything really changed for the worse in June of 2019. And even now just with COVID the, the regulations they put on, on evictions and everything like that has been awful to deal with and what tenants can get away with. And it definitely has deterred me from wanting to keep building a portfolio here. I think that I do have a nice sized portfolio.   And if I, which I do think I will continue doing a bunch of burgers is I'll, I'll go out of state and kind of diversify in different markets. Maybe do a couple here a year still, just because it's so easy for me. Cause I know the market and I know the properties and I get a lot of deals sent to me. But yeah, we, we were lucky. We didn't have too many people that didn't pay during COVID, but there's one person that hasn't paid since COVID and we can't evict them.   We can't do anything. So I was very thankful that I gave up property management before COVID hit, because I wouldn't be bald ripping my hair out even more. So that was nice. But yeah, I, I think that if you are investing on state, don't come to me here.   Jesse (31m 46s): Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a, there's definitely a different, I mean, we're, we're very, I think our whole country safer for Alberta is, is a challenging regulatory environment. I think rent stabilization and rent control. We had a professor actually from New York city from NYU that was talking about the history of rent control and rent stabilization in New York state and then across the country. But I think for us, I'm not sure if it's the same for you, but basically we have a certain amount that we can raise every year. And they're really the only time you can raise above that is when a new tenant comes in.   I'm not sure if it's the same kind of,   Ashley (32m 20s): Yeah, we don't have that like outside of Buffalo, cause that's more like New York city, but for us, the biggest thing is like in June when all of the, the laws kind of changed and they just changed so drastically. So it used to be a three-day notice before you could file a petition for eviction, but then it changed to a 10 day notice and then it just like made the whole eviction process a lot longer, the different rules and regulations they put in and just a lot easier for tenants to get away without paying rent just a lot more loopholes and things like that.   Jesse (32m 56s): Yeah, absolutely. I think one very like a stark difference between let's just use Buffalo, for example, compared to say our market in Toronto or I mean you could go LA you could go, Boston, Buffalo has been a very, I think yields centric type of market where you, the cap rates that you can achieve around your area, probably a lot higher than the cap rates we can achieve in our area. But I think that has been at the expense of potential equity growth. So how do you look at, at that when you are doing your underwriting and just generally your philosophy of, of that trade-off between, you know, potential income as opposed to value?   Ashley (33m 36s): Yeah, so like one thing is the 50% rule in the 1% rule. So the 1% rule says that the per your, the rent that you're charging each month is 1% of the purchase price. I can hit that all day long. What I can't hit is the 50% rule where 50% of your expenses are 50% of the monthly income because the property taxes are so high too. So that's like a, not even the, the laws at all, just property taxes are so high here too. So that's been kind of another reason for me to want to go out of state for my rental portfolio, because if I buy this $20,000 property, I can pay that off very quickly or just pay for that in cash.   But I'm still paying those properties taxes every single year. And those, I just sold a property that the property, it was 20,000. I had bought it for and the property taxes were about three grand a year on it. And, but I could go upstate and I could pay maybe, you know, 50, 60,000 for that same house, but only pay a thousand dollars in property taxes. And once that property is paid off, it's only a thousand that I'm paying every year instead of 3000. So that I would say is even more of a factor to me than the, the landlord tenant laws, even.   Jesse (34m 54s): Yeah. It's funny that we would be the inverse of that. The 1% is almost impossible if not impossible, but the 50%, which is, you know, for listers, like you have a, your, whatever your expense ratio is, that's really, really what it is, you know, as a percentage. So us, I think 30 to 40% is pretty, pretty normal. It, unless it's brand new and then you can get a little bit lower, but yeah, I didn't, you know, and I didn't even think of that from a property tax perspective. That's really, I always, I, when you mentioned that, I thought it would have just been just expenses in general, not necessarily property tax.   Ashley (35m 26s): Yeah. It's, it's definitely the property tax, but we actually in Erie county, which is the county that's in Buffalo and, or surrounds it, they actually have an Excel sheet that they, every year that they just put on the county website that tells you each town and what the tax rate is for those towns. And then it compares it for you. It says, okay, if you buy a hundred thousand dollar house, this is what your taxes would be on that property. And you can go through and see, and it shows, breaks it down from like town and county.   And then if there's a village to village tax and then school tax. So what you can do is you can go through there and say, okay, these are the desirable school districts. Well, what towns border that, where you're paying that low town and county tax, but you're getting into that school district because of that little bit of overlapping. So if you guys, and anybody wants to go and look search your county, I'm sure they probably do this too. If your county does and look at that and you can see what towns have the lowest tax rate tax rates.   So the last house that I, I just did a flip and that house had super, super low property taxes. It was in a small little town and the reason it had low property taxes was because there was like a garbage dump in the area landfill. And they pay the majority of the property taxes. Well, this property was like right on the edge of the border where you're not getting any smell from the landfill. And so it was kind of like an opportunity because you get that, you know, I, that property, I also purchased for 20,000, but instead of 3000 and proper Texas, it was only $850 a year in property taxes.   Just show the difference. Yeah.   Jesse (37m 12s): Yeah. I think that's, I mean, it's pretty amazing. Like you can have properties within, you know, 45 minutes an hour from each other and just have such a drastic price difference when it comes to property tax Ashley, in terms of the way that you're looking at the market right now, and fingers crossed, hopefully we're coming out of this thing, you know, in, in the right direction, when it comes to the lockdowns and restrictions, what is, where do you see opportunities over the next few years? You know, what's, what's kind of got your interest aside, you know, aside from, from the, what we've discussed here, but what are you excited about?   Ashley (37m 47s): Well, I guess, you know, I'm trying to stay away from that shiny object centers. Talking about teenagers is bad for me, but I think there'll be a opportunity for businesses. So going after businesses that maybe are sick of the COVID regulations, or maybe they did fall behind and during COVID and they just haven't been able to catch up. So I think there'll be opportunity there. So some of the businesses I'd be interested in are not really going to be ones that were impacted by COVID, but were actually empowered by COVID.   So they actually did better. So that would be like liquor stores, which I got one of those. And unfortunately we didn't get our like liquor license until basically the shutdown was kind of over, but looking at the kind of businesses that can survive COVID I think really piques my interest that if there was another shutdown or something like that happening again, that these businesses were thriving and they still do successful anyways, even when there isn't a shutdown.   So that was like a liquor store was a big one for me. And then I also like the idea of a laundry mat or a carwash, just the, the, the ease of the cash cow from those. And then I do have some experience managing a laundromat for that, that other owner. So yeah, those are any other business opportunities   Jesse (39m 18s): Working with that. Gentlemen is the gift that keeps on giving we've. We've looked at laundromats as well. It's just one of those compelling things that even without buying the real estate there, there still is a compelling case. If you can obviously do both. That's great. But I like your point in terms of businesses that have been resilient. I mean, we've seen in our own market, you know, whether it's technology, medical, technology companies, ghost kitchens, just companies that you didn't, you couldn't foresee how much, how explosive their growth would be prior to the pandemic, obviously for, you know, nobody has a crystal ball, but that that's, we do see those companies, a big driver of, of real estate at least locally here.   And I'm sure it's, it's the case where you are.   Ashley (39m 60s): Yeah. And even with auto dealerships. So I've been in because of the same investor I've been in the auto dealership industry and they are making more money now because of the shortage of cars. So every car that they're selling, it's getting selled at invoice or above because there's no cars available because all the chips and all the parts are stuck on a ship waiting to come into the us. But they they've said that they sold they're making as much as they did, but they're selling half of what they sold before.   COVID. So they're doing less work, making the same amount of money. So it's been almost beneficial to them to, I mean, there's definitely was some hardships, especially during the shutdown and things like that, but there's the PPP programs that I think helped a lot of, of businesses. So it's very interesting to see what businesses actually have benefited from COVID and have done better.   Jesse (40m 57s): Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Well, actually, I want to be respectful of your time here. There's four questions that we ask every guest that comes on the show. So before we kind of get on how people can reach out to you, if you're game for those all, I'll start them off. What's something that, you know, now it could be in your real estate or career in general that you wish you knew when you were starting out.   Ashley (41m 19s): So, one thing that I did not know was that you could go and get a loan for an investment property. I thought you had to make a cash, but you had to buy it in cash because that's how that other investor had purchased all of his properties. So I wish that I would have known that there was other options to me then just taking on a partner and I could have explored that. And not that I, you know, made a bad decision or anything like that, but I wish I wouldn't have had that limited mindset of that. You could only buy a property in cash, and I didn't even realize creative financing and all the different ways to purchase property until I actually found bigger pockets in 2017.   So that was three years later. And then I tripled my portfolio in a year and a half after just digging into the forums and learning all these different ways, you know, seller financing and private money, all these different things.   Jesse (42m 13s): Yeah. Just, just all the different resources. The next question is, you know what, since you were on a panel for women in real estate, maybe we'll, I'll kind of tweak the question a little bit. Typically we'll ask, you know, your view, what would you give as a recommendation to younger people coming into our industry, your view on mentorship, but why don't we say from a, especially from a female point of view, younger women coming into our industry, you know, what would be your advice to them? And, and just generally, and mentorship,   Ashley (42m 41s): I think that there are some women out there who think that they are at a disadvantage being a woman in real estate, because there's so many men doing it. Don't look at it like that. It is an opportunity and it is an advantage. You are going to stand out because you are a woman. If you go and look at a property with a broker, do you think he's going to remember the 20 other men that have looked at it and know he's going to remember that one woman that came, that you know, is investing in properties.   I think there's a lot of doubts and that, you know, you're going to get scammed by contractors because you're a woman, you know, don't know what you're doing. And that's also an advantage. You know, if a contractor is going to try and scam you, because you're a woman who's going to do it right off the bat. So if he's talking down to you or things like that, then you know, not to hire him or if it's a guy and the contractor is like, okay, he probably knows what he's doing. I'm going to scan them at them or something.   But I, I think use it to your advantage. And it's an opportunity. And if you feel like, because you are a woman that you are not being taken seriously, then you're talking to the wrong people. You're talking to the wrong person because I have more friends in real estate that are men than women and not a single one of them has ever talked down to me or made me feel like I don't belong. That it's a boys club at all. If anything, I feel like I've been more welcomed because I am a woman.   There's a million other men doing what I'm doing, but there's not as many women. So it's given me an opportunity, a like up and I think take advantage of that   Jesse (44m 25s): Great advice. Okay. Is there a resource, a podcast or book that you'd like, let listeners know about that you're listening to reading   Ashley (44m 36s): The real estate rookie puck.   Jesse (44m 41s): Yeah. As well.   Ashley (44m 44s): Yeah. If there is actually a book that I love and I think that anybody who's in business or the real estate or any other business should read this because no matter what, you're going to be dealing with people, and it's a hug your haters by Jay Baer. And it's a customer service based book. And basically it talks about like, if you received negative feedback or criticism, how to deal with that, and also how to kill people with kindness. So if you are a wholesaler and you're getting, you know, sellers that are, you know, or you know, how to work with them.   And so I, it's a, it's a great read. I, it's probably the, one of the, probably the only book that I've scribbled in that much before and like taken notes and highlighted things. And so   Jesse (45m 32s): That's great that I think that's the first on the show. I've never heard of it. We'll put a link up to that as well. Awesome. All right. My favorite question, first car, make and model.   Ashley (45m 42s): It was a green Bonneville. I don't even want the makeup upon GMC or Chevy or something, but That's basically about think of a vote.   Jesse (45m 57s): Yeah, just, just in a, in a what's it called in Buffalo with a PO thing. It's Pontiac. Pontiac Bonneville. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Ashley, for, for people that like to kind of find out what you're doing online, like I said, you have great, great presence on, on Instagram and other platforms were where's the best bless area for people to reach out.   Ashley (46m 19s): It will be on Instagram app wealth from rentals. And then we also have a real estate rookie, a YouTube channel, and then a real estate rookie, a Facebook page. You guys just searched those.   Jesse (46m 32s): My guest today has been Ashley Kurt, Ashley, thank you for being part of working capital.   Ashley (46m 36s): Thank you so much for having me.   Jesse (46m 45s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Real Estate Financing, Development and Student Housing, with Andrew Drexler | EP76

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 46:31


Andrew Drexler has been a Part of the First National Financial Commercial Team for over 15 years, and has Originated more than $4 billion in Commercial Financing. In 2020 alone, his team funded over $1 billion in Commercial Mortgages, of which $822 million represented transactions in Ontario and $236 million Represented Transactions in Quebec In this episode we talked about: Andrew's Bio & Background The Real Estate Market Liquidity Debt Markets and Financing of Projects The Retail Real Estate Outlook Remote VS Onsite Work Real Estate Risks and Opportunities Underwriting Apartment Buildings Condo Development The Student Rental Market Canadian and US Real Estate Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewdrexler/?originalSubdomain=ca https://www.firstnational.ca/contact-us Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time, or at least an in gentlemen, my name Jessica galley, and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is Andrew Drexler. Andrew has been part of the first national financial commercial team for over 20 years.   Now, for those of you that don't know first national is one of Canada's largest non-bank mortgage lenders offering both commercial mortgages and resident residential mortgage solutions. And correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, I believe you said that we're over 10 billion in, in mortgage originations.   Andrew (50s): It's going to be pretty close to 10 billion for this year. Yes, we're on the commercial side. It's going to be a very exciting year.   Jesse (56s): Well, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. It's it's great that you're being generous with your time. How you doing today?   Andrew (1m 2s): My pleasure. Good. Thank you. It's a beautiful fall day in Toronto right now. I love fall. It's my favorite season. So it's a beautiful day   Jesse (1m 9s): Transience of that fall season. We get it for such a small amount of time. That makes it so good. Well, it is a, it is false. Yeah, no, absolutely. I appreciate that. It is fall. It's a leaves home opener today. So at least versus Canadians for the hockey fans out there. What we do with, with guests that we have on first and foremost, Andrews, we like listeners to get a little bit of a background into, you know, how you got into the, the real estate space, maybe a little bit of, of your background and how you ended up where you are today.   Andrew (1m 44s): Sure. So, you know, I first got introduced to real estate actually, when I came as a 14 year old immigrant to Canada for Romania, with my family. And it was the first time it occurred to me that you have to pay rent to live somewhere. And I thought that was quite interesting. So I guess I went to school at the university of Toronto and upon graduating, I was very fortunate to meet more the co-founder of first national and, you know, he's a legendary figure in our industry.   He's been a great mentor for me now for 20 years. And so early on in my career Morty and I were looking after one of our largest clients from Israel who came into Canada and bought a lot of real estate in a very short period of time. And so early on, I was exposed to all the different asset classes and because they were short-staffed here, we did a lot for them, not just the financing, but a lot of the acquisition work and due diligence work, you know, and that gave me a really good understanding of both the equity and the debt side. So it's been, it's been a really amazing ride really for the last 20 years, we've worked on some really exciting deals, mixed use deals, construction loans, and pretty much every asset class.   So it's been, it's been quite an interesting last 20 years. We've seen a lot for sure. And you know, I'm excited about where the Canadian industry is. I mean, there, we see a lot of changes, but we also have some challenges going forward. So I think overall though, the industry, the Canadian real estate industry is in a pretty good space   Jesse (3m 12s): For sure. And in terms of coming out of the university of Toronto going, you know, meeting, meeting the, you know, the head of first national, was that your first path into real estate or was there, was there other companies that you work for prior to, to first national?   Andrew (3m 26s): No, that was my first. That was my first job out of university. It was, I was, I was quite lucky. Actually. I started a business lab in university, which led me to meet somebody who then introduced me to the Maury and went, you know, it, this is how the opportunity came about. And it's been, it's been a great opportunity that I really appreciated, you know, first actually has been just such a gold standard in the mortgage industry, Steven Smith and Moya Taz. And they've done a great job of being at the forefront of innovation. And, you know, like you said earlier, I mean, we're going to be close to $10 billion of new mortgages originated this year on the commercial side, the single family side is, is a leader in its space as well.   So we get a really good look at what's going on in the industry, you know, both from the commercial side and the, the, the, I guess the single family side and just the strength and the health of the overall industry. From that perspective,   Jesse (4m 18s): I'm curious to ask, I mean, it's not often you have a seasoned vet. That's been with a company like first national from inception in terms of the, the background that you've seen over the years, first National's evolution to, to what the different places that they lend within the capital stack. How has that evolved over your career there?   Andrew (4m 36s): So we used to be predominantly an apartment lender on the I'm only going to speak from the commercial side cause that's where, where I work, but we are mostly an apartment lender and now we've become, you know, we do retail, we do office, we do self storage, we do student housing and retirement. We've really become a very balanced lender. This is a time. I mean, there's definitely a lot of liquidity in the markets, both for on the equity side and on the debt side, it's a great time to be a borer. If you have existing assets, it's a very difficult time to be a developer, looking for land, looking for new projects, you know, it's become tougher and tougher to make money in real estate, both buying and developing.   But if you do have an existing portfolio, it's a very good time and there's so much liquidity. I don't think I've ever seen this much liquidity in our market, again, both from the, the equity and the debt side.   Jesse (5m 28s): So how has the last year, well, almost two years now, this environment that we've, we find ourselves in, how has that, if, if it has at all changed the way that you look at the debt markets, the way that you look at financing of projects, you know, anything different philosophies changed over the, over the last 18 to 24 months?   Andrew (5m 51s): You know, it's a good question. So I think we've been surprised at how certain asset classes have held up. I think at, you know, we were worried about apartment owners and, and, you know, we were wondering whether people are going to lose their jobs and not be able to pay their rents. And the apartment sector has held up incredibly well. You know, I mean, the government's done their job to, to support people and then people to their credit have done a great job of maintaining their rent payments and not defaulting there. I think, you know, rebel is had its challenges.   You know, obviously people shop differently. Now. I think people are spending less, I think on the office side it's yet to be determined, right? I mean, I, I'm a big believer in the return of the downtowns. I think, you know, we've seen apartment vacancies in the downtown core across Canada go from 0% to 15% almost overnight. I think we're starting to see the return now and nobody's really back at work, but very small people are, people are back in the office. I think that we will go back fairly quickly. I'm so bullish on, on the Canadian major cities.   I mean, I just think when I look around the world, I, I wouldn't rather be, I wouldn't be anywhere else really than, than here. So I think there's a big draw from an immigration perspective, economic perspective, our, our political system is good. Are healthcare systems good or universities are good. So I think, you know, Canada will continue to be a strong point of, of, of entry, you know, industrial of course has been booming. And so that's, we all know that everybody's looking for, for industrial space and, and rents and values and land and cap rates.   Everything is it's at an all time high cap rates at an all time low, of course. So the Canadian market is held up really well. I, I would say my biggest worry is really more around the retail side. I think the, the office side will rebound and I think the office sector for the most part is owned by very large institutional players that have a deep pockets. I think on the retail side, I'm more concerned about, you know, when you lose the mom and pop tenants and when you see some of the anchors that are maybe downsized or not quite taken up as much space, I'm not sure that there's a long list of replacement tenants that are waiting in the wings.   You know, in previous years or decades, there's always somebody new coming out of the U S there's always somebody new coming out of Europe. We just don't seem that anymore. And I'm just worried that that rents probably in the long-term are going to be flat lower than where they are today. And that's assuming the occupancy stays at the level that it's at, but overall the market has been good. I think you certainly put more emphasis now on the strength of the bore and their cashflow abilities. You know, it used to be that somebody got, they had a good net worth, they're good to go, but now it's, you know, they own a bunch of different plazas and they're not quite getting their full, you know, a hundred percent of rent that they used to collect.   So can they still support the loan or what happens when their loans roll over? And they start all of a sudden going to a higher interest rate, you know, which is the next point, which is, you know, I do think unfortunately we're in for a, a period of rising interest rates. I do think that everywhere you look, you know, it screams inflation, and eventually that's going to make its way into the interest rate environment. You know, there's talk about one a day data being, being slowed down or reduced at all levels and malt and other, you know, many countries.   And I think that that ultimately will put pressure on bond yields to move up, which will result in higher interest rates are interest rates can lead to higher cap rates, you know, maybe a reduction in values. And again, the cash flow is, is a big concern. So we're definitely, stress-testing our borders a little bit more, and we're looking very closely at the ability of the property as well to, to support their, that they plan on taking   Jesse (9m 32s): Yeah, in terms of a lot there. But for, for the particular asset class, I'm curious with retail, as you know, we've seen, I think whether in the states, whether it's 26 or 27 square feet per person per capita, and we're somewhere 16 and then, you know, European countries, sub 10. So all that to say that we, you know, a lot of real estate or retail, I think that even prior to COVID, we, we knew it was overbuilt, but now really getting granular. And the ones that at least we see is that the grocery anchored or the good anchor tenant malls or areas experiential areas I think are going to be positive.   But when it comes to you looking at retail as an asset class, are you looking, you know, with much more emphasis on the credit worthiness of, of the tenants and what that tenant profile looks like?   Andrew (10m 21s): Yeah. I think it's, it's the long-term stability of that tenant and trying to anticipate what their long-term needs are going to be. So, you know, when I look at a Canadian tire, when I look at a Walmart, Walmart, which used to be obviously the gold standard, and you have one of those in your Plaza and don't even have to worry about the rest of the tenant roster. I think you, you try to say now, well, where would they be in five years? Do they still need that kind of footprint? Is there a chance that, you know, we're competing with their own sites and they go somewhere else because they need more or less, you know?   And then when you look at the, the, the rest of the tenants and you look at their rents and you even look at the renewal rates, like, are they really going to be getting those rents? You know, considering that, you know, they spend more on cleaning, they spend more on staff, they're doing a little bit less business than they used to. You know, certainly if you go into the mall and all of a sudden you're allowing two people per store, four people per store, you know, what does that do to their bottom line? It's got to impacted, right? And then you add in, again, the extra cleaning Dexter wages, certainly the profit is going to be decreasing.   You start thinking about supply chain issues, you know, where they're getting their, their items that they're selling their merchandise. Does that cost them more? Are they still able to get it on time again, that affects their profit, which ultimately for them to stay afloat, do you need to come back to your landlord and say, Hey, I'm sorry, guys. I want to stay open, but I need to pay a little bit less. So I think it's more about not just happens right now, but it's really what happens two to five years from now. That's really important from a tenant by tenant perspective.   Jesse (11m 56s): Yeah. That makes sense. In moving over onto that office side, do you, do you, well, I'll say this, do you subscribe to the, this, this idea? I think I'm, I'm partial to, I'm also, you know, obviously biased in, in the Toronto downtown market, but the idea that I think that 24 hour cities are going to come back, whether it's the new Yorks, the Las Vancouver, Toronto, I think suburban offices have held up decently. I think it's, it's a lot of the mid tier, you know, the, the class B class C in mid markets that I think are going to be the questionable questionable office is the ones that aren't connected to the suburbs through transportation.   Like you just, you know, having a car and the ones that aren't downtown connected via all the transit that we have here. What are your thoughts on that?   Andrew (12m 43s): You know, for me, the question is about when people are going to feel comfortable being on public transit, right? So I'm a huge believer in that downtown. I'm a huge believer in, in, you know, not just the hybrid model, but a return to work model, because I truly think people need to be around others to brainstorm, to be more creative, to be more productive. I know we've all been very productive for the last year and a half, but the reality is everything's been shut down. You've had nothing to do blood work, you know, but now as things open up, you know, it's easy to, to, you know, not feel as, you know, energetic or enthusiastic plus you've been, you've been locked up at home for awhile.   You know, when you come into the office, is it just a certain level of energy that, that kicks in, right. And I think for the young people, not that, that I'm so old, but for the young people, you really need to be around to hear what's going on, to learn about deals, to learn about what's going on in the market. You just don't get that from the home. And so I do think the office market will come back strongly in the downtowns across Canada. I just, for me, the question is more, is this six months? Is it a year, is a year and a half. And I think the answer depends on when will people feel comfortable being on transit.   Cause you know, everybody thinks they're going to drive into work. I tell you I live 15 minutes away and it takes me 45 minutes now to drive in with 5% of the people being downtown. And so once everybody's back to work, it's just no chance I'm doing a drive in and out of downtown. So, but I I'm a such a believer in the return of the downtowns and, and it goes the same for buildings, right? I mean, people are not going to be working, living in the suburbs for the rest of their lives. You know, if you have family, that's a different story, but the young people, again, who may be moved home or, or bought a place for our way that I just think they'll, they'll want to come back into the downtown, you know, and once their friends are back and the energy's back, you want to be in and around the downtown.   And you know, that will signify the return of that 24 hour city that you're talking about.   Jesse (14m 38s): Yeah. I think that's born out by most of our experience that we've had with our office. We've, we've opened in October, so not too long ago, officially on, on kind of a rotational basis. And there's definitely that feeling that vibe, you know, just kind of interoffice sports are kind of slowly coming back. And I really felt during COVID or that at least the beginning, I really felt for the individuals that were associates and analysts just coming into our industry only, you know, the time where you should be making the most connections speaking with the most people, they were kind of forced to be at home during that time.   Andrew (15m 12s): Yeah. It's very difficult that you just can't learn the same way when you're at home. You know, you try, I mean, I have a team of analysts and you know, we try to get them on calls. You're calling your client, you get them on, but sometimes you don't get the client, you hang up, they call you back. You can't quite just say, hang on, let me put my house on line. And these are learning opportunities where you just around people and you learn, I mean, I've learned so much by, you know, the, the predecessors or the people that are still our company that had been there before me just listening to them. You know, that's how you learn how to talk to clients. You learn what to say, what not to say, you know, you learn about stuff that's going on in the market.   I mean, these are really valuable things that I really hope that the young people see the value in that. And they forget that it's been easy to work in your jogging pants and, you know, get a workout in, in the middle of the day. But hopefully you'll you realize that the importance of, of being in the office?   Jesse (15m 59s): Yeah. I think the interface, zoom, whatever it is, teams it's, they've got, they've done well, but there's definitely those subtleties. I, in terms of, you know, you mentioned interest rates, you know, I think it kind of went under reported with the fed kind of decoupling their, their target inflation. I'm I'm assuming I, I should be, I should be more up on this for the Canadian side of things, but I assume that we will follow something similar to what what's going on in the states right now you mentioned inflation and, and as a result of eventual, upward pressure on interest rates, how do you view, how do you analyze that?   How do you approach that when from a, from a lending point of view?   Andrew (16m 39s): So I think the challenges with the construction projects, you know, where you have, you're trying to underwrite the future value of the asset upon completion. And you're trying to peg a certain interest rate, a certain ceiling rates that you cannot exceed. So you're structuring your construction financing based on the end value. When you have a certain rate that you can't, when you convert to the term that you cannot exceed. And so, you know, the challenge with, with apartment construction is that the projects take so much longer than they used to.   You know, you start off with approval is taking years now, too. So the pre-development takes a lot longer. The construction is taking longer and you know, whether it's COVID related, whether it's supply global supply chain, disruptions related, you know, everything is taking longer. And so, you know, now you're looking at a project that could be five, six years before you get to completion. So we're essentially trying to peg where the interest rates are going to be in five or six years, because that's what we've tied our construction loan to. So I think that's, to me where I have the biggest concerns, we mitigate that by saying, you know, we're really just focusing on large bores that have liquid assets and very good cash flow in their portfolio.   But a lot of these apartment projects are getting to be very significant. I mean, we're doing projects that are, you know, $200 million upwards of $200 million. That's a lot of exposure. You know, you have a, a 50% basis point 50 basis point rise in interest rates, which could impact your cap rate by 25 basis points. You know, that's a lot of, that's a, that's a big value of sling. And I think if you try to say, look, you know, we're going to increase the interest rate in our underwriting by 50 basis points per year. Or if you're trying to Peggy at five years out, that's two and a half percent.   There's no chance that anything today is going to cover. So it's, it's a bit of a balance, right? But I think the biggest challenges in the multifamily sector, I think, you know, industrial, not so much office, but industrial and retail, usually construction is a lot shorter. And usually you have your leases done right at the beginning. So you don't even have to worry about leasing risk at the end. So it's merely just pegging your construction risk and then how quickly you can turn out the debt. But I think apartments though, you do have some, some serious interest rate.   Jesse (18m 53s): Yeah. At least with industrial construction too. I mean, it's a slab of concrete at, at a certain point. And the, the, the construction itself is simpler. I'm curious, Andrew, when it comes to the underwriting of apartment buildings, for those that don't know that the Canadian market is a bit unique, especially in comparison to the states. A lot of our apartments stock is older stock in terms of the actual, when, you know, when you hear that there's a class, a class apartments in whether, you know, it's in Miami or Boston, we really started building a class not very long ago.   So the projects that, that you would finance or that you would look at geographically, where do you find them clustering and what type of, what type of assets in the apartments fear are you financing? Are you lending on?   Andrew (19m 40s): So there it's our asset class that, that transacts the most. So there is a lot of capital chasing apartments. So the existing portfolios are being bought the existing older buildings. There there's a lot of demand for them. There are a lot of international players that are a lot of Canadian REITs. There are a lot of wealthy families and investors that are still looking to acquire multi reds in Canada. And so that's good because you know where your debt is today, and it's been very cheap.   And so you can lock into a 10 year rate and still get some pretty attractive returns. We send a lot of new rental development over the past five years. And the reason for that is because, you know, it used to be that interest rates were high and rents were low, right? We had rent control for many years and there was no incentive to build apartment buildings. And like you said, the apartment stock in our country is very old and we hadn't had new construction for a very long time. And so the shift happened when interest rates started going lower and lower to the point where we were at historically low levels, the financing environment became a lot more conducive to new development.   And a key part for me was that the tenant profile had changed. So tenants right now, whether you're dealing with retirees cashing in, on their home equity, young professionals that either can't afford or don't want to buy a house right now, or international students, these are very sophisticated pennants that have said, you know, I want a nice building. I want a superior HVAC system. I want amenities like rooftop, patios, and barbecue areas where we can entertain friends. I want gyms in our building. And so this level of demand from the tenants has driven the, the, the, the increase in supply of new apartment buildings.   Now, not all new apartments have been luxury. You know, we've built, you know, call it no frills, new apartment buildings as well. You know, new apartment buildings that maybe don't have the same level of amenities. And we've built those, not just in the major cities, on the major transit nodes, but on the outskirts as well. And so those have been really well received. So I think to your point, our rental stock is very old. And anything new that has been brought into the market has been received very well, because there are lots of people that have the ability to pay more for their rent and want to live in nice places.   And, you know, frankly, the units have gotten smaller, but that's okay because you live in a brand new, beautiful building. And again, you have these great amenities and you have people over, they're not going to be in your, an apartment. They're going to be in the, in the common areas. And so we've seen a lot of new developments in, in that sector. The challenge now is will that continue going forward? And I think, you know, the demand side is definitely there. I think the challenge is in those risks that we're talking about, namely interest rate risks, the fact that the projects have taken longer, they're becoming bigger.   And with the construction costs today, escalating rapidly, you know, the returns are now getting to that point where they don't really make sense. And so this all leads to this affordability crisis that we have in Canada, which is both the home ownership, we're home on affordability issue and the lack of affordability on the rental side. And the challenge is that people don't understand that the issue is a supply issue. It's not a matter of cap, the rents, you can increase rents anymore, or you can't get rid of and evictions.   It's not that the issue is that we don't have enough supply and pre COVID. We were pretty close to 0% vacancy rate across the country. Most cities we're going to get there again, as soon as immigration opens up, as soon as the international students are coming back, as soon as people come back into downtowns to the office, that vacancy rate goes back to zero. And yet here we are with facing a, an, an affordability issue again. And so we need to find a way to solve that.   Jesse (23m 28s): Yeah, I think that is kind of the knee, knee jerk reaction. It's it's these symptoms. I think of the problem that you, you go to like rent evictions or these, these type of things where it's it's, the constraint is supply. And I I'd like to get your thoughts just on the, the history, at least of our market. A lot of it has been this shadow market of condo development, being a proxy or a replacement for what should be purpose-built apartment buildings, people that are fully intending on, on renting. Is that, is that dynamic, do you think that's still happening and will happen between the two asset classes and maybe just a follow-up to that?   If so, is that because of the, the ability to build condos is regulatorily easier than, than a purpose-built right now,   Andrew (24m 18s): I'd say that's a complicated question. So I think traditionally, it was easier to do condos because, you know, you would pre-sell, you would have a certain profit built in there and then you'd go get your financing. And then you start construction. You also had a very level of construction industry where costs were an escalating, like they are today. And your, your development timeframe was a lot shorter than it is today. So it was fairly cookie cutter in that once you, the risk was in picking a site in and getting the pre-sales done, once you did your pre-sales and you locked in your profit, then it was just a matter of building it out.   And it was fairly straightforward. The challenge now on the condo side is that, you know, as a lender, I don't even know if I want our borders to pre-sale or to pre-sell the full, you know, 75 or 80% of the building to cover a loan because frankly cost escalations are so high that it's going to eat them through their profit pretty quickly. And then I don't really want them losing their motivation halfway through the project where we funded half. And now all of a sudden there's no profit left. So it's, it's very challenging as a lender to decide, you know, what do you want, do you want pre-sales or not?   Having said that the price is the sale price is seemed to continue to escalate and costs are not slowing down. And, but the, the sales side is not slowing down either. So you're seeing sale prices per square foot that are getting higher and higher in Toronto. So condo projects right now still make sense. The challenge is that the rental side no longer makes sense. And so we need to find a way to continue to enhance, you know, entice, I guess, developers to build the, you know, rental product because we need it.   But I think the difference between the two, I mean, personally, I would rather be in a, in a purpose still rent the building. You've got professional management, you've got a building full of renters that are going to be there. Long-term with the condos, there's constant turnover. People aren't as careful with the buildings, you know, it's just not the same crowd, but having said that they both been successful. And so that tells you that there's a lot of demand for whether it's condos or whether it's new rentals. The idea is that people want to live in newer, nicer buildings with nicer amenities.   And so right now the condo market seems to be really strong. Again, the rental market seems to be picking up as well again. And I think longterm they're both going to continue to be successful. The challenge is, will there be enough enticement to the developers to build rental, or are people all just going to, to condos now and be selling that because you can still make it work from a condo perspective.   Jesse (26m 49s): And as, as asset value is safer, multifamily increase and, and net operating income also continues to increase. Where do we hit that point of like that unaffordable point? And I guess more importantly from a policy perspective, w what do we do to, to ameliorate that aspect of, of what looks like the direction our market's going in?   Andrew (27m 12s): So I think the challenge is, so right now you have a federal government that has a very strong immigration platform, which is great for the economy, which is great for housing. It's really good all around. I mean, you know, as a, as a fellow immigrant, I know that people come here because they want a better life, right? So they come and they want to work hard and they want to, you know, own something, their house or a business. And so it adds a lot of value to the economy. So you want to continue to encourage that. So the federal government has done that. They're also offering financing through groups like CMAT, you know, to encourage development, the provinces are doing their part because they're giving grants at different levels.   And the municipalities are trying as well. They're, they're waiving development charges for affordable units. They're waiving taxes. The problem is that they're operating independently. And as a group, they need to come together to, to sacrifice a little bit more to say, what is it that we can each give up in order to balance the equation that the developers have? Because right now, what the government is offering is not enough to support for the development. I mean, these developers are building two, three, 4% cap rates.   And again, with the longer timeframe, and you were saying five, six years, by the time you're fully leased, that's a lot of time to wait and a lot of risks from an interest rate perspective and cap rate perspective and ultimately valuation perspective. So, you know, if it's barely interesting right now for developer to build, and they're only doing two or three, 4% cap rate, and that's assuming that everything pans out, you're just going to lose them, right? And so what can we do? We need to come together. We need to shorten from a municipal perspective, we need the shorter shorten approval times, you know, approve or reject an application within six months.   It can take two years, you know, maybe entice them, give them more density, but they have to build a certain amount affordable. But then you waive development charges on the full building, not just on the units that are affordable. Maybe you wave Realty taxes on the whole building, not just on the affordable units. These are things that, that have to happen in order for us to, to stimulate development. I mean, ultimately, look, if you're a developer, you have two sides of the equation, right? You have the development side, which right now costs are through the roof, and you need to reduce that.   And so from a government perspective, you can only help with agency self-assessment tax, where you can help out by waving or reducing development charges, or by, by maybe subsidizing land. But then once it's built on the operational side, if you're trying to put a cap on the rent that they can charge, and you're trying to entice them to reduce the rent to an affordable level, you have certain expense line items that can be adjusted. You can't adjust, you can't adjust insurance, which is going through the roof as well. You can't adjust wages.   I mean, again, huge inflationary pressures on wages and the staff. And so the only thing you can do is you can adjust Realty taxes, which is the municipality. So this is my point. Like the, you have to look at both sides, the development costs and the operational side, and, and is at all levels of government, we have to come together and we have to piece it to then entice these developers to provide more housing, which then in turn will, will alleviate your, your housing problem.   Jesse (30m 28s): Yeah, that's interesting because even on the office side, I think they've phased most of them out, but the tiger grants that we have where we're the tax incremental aspects of, of basically assisting whether it was developers or large tendencies with, with the tax piece, it's like, that's only one piece of the equation. And it's funny, we had, we had John Love on the program and other, you know, big name in Canadian commercial real estate, who said the same thing. It was a coordination problem with, with the different provinces that, you know, people need to be talking collectively and, and the federal government and the provinces need to need to work at this project.   Not, not unilaterally, but together. I'm curious if you want to pivot to an asset class. That was how I got started into, into the industry. And I know it's something that I wanted to chat with you about on the student residence, a student rental market in general, I think at the beginning of COVID just like you were mentioning before with our thoughts that apartments might be, you know, might be in trouble. And then it turns out they did pretty well compared to the comparatively. My first thought was when this happened, the first few months was that student rentals were going to get hit the hardest, just in, just in virtue of the nature of the pandemic.   How, how has the student rental market been, what, what has been the experience that you've seen over the last year or two?   Andrew (31m 47s): You know, I think as an asset class, they struggled a little bit and, and frankly, you know, they did because all of a sudden they had no students, right. And, and in the privately owned residences, you know, people stayed in, they weren't sure if they should go home or not. I think in the ones that were either owned by a university or managed by a university, you know, they allowed people to leave and basically let them walk out of their leases. But that's, to me was a shorter blimp. I mean, I absolutely love this asset class. I think it's got the most upside in, in Canadian real estate, you know, student housing to me, you know, when you think of it back when you're younger than me, but when we used to go to school, it was cinder blocks.   It was ugly buildings. It was, you know, poor locations, you know, the, the knock on it was you had eight month leases and you had kids that would just trash the place, right. I mean, that is completely gone. Now, you know, we do so much student housing at first Nash. Then I tell you, these buildings are unbelievable. I mean, you'll have, first of all, the wifi, capacity's huge. And it's the number one, you know, by far most important element in, in the decision of a, of a student. So that's different. They have amenities like gyms and, and, you know, again, these rooftop patios and study rooms and indoor parking and 24 hour security.   So that's from a tenant perspective, it's a dream they're located very close to campus in most cases. And from an operational perspective, I mean, these kids are now, they realize how lucky they are to be in those places. Their 12 month leases, they have parental guarantees. Sometimes they have cross tenant guarantees. So there's no issues with damage. And, and from a demand perspective, there's so much demand, you know, we have, we're, Canada's huge for international students. You know, I'm not sure if you know, but there, I think that the number is 5 million international students and Canada's third behind the U S and Australia.   Our education system is amazing. Our universities are ranked really well in the world. And so there's a lot of demand for these universities. Most of the students that are coming in have money there for them, whether they're paying $750 per month or $800, it doesn't really move the needle too much. And so you have really strong demand and equally important is the fact that it's the one asset class that is a great protection for inflation, right? Because you have 50% turnover every year.   And so unlike retail or industrial or office where you're locked into long-term leases for apartments, where you're maybe five to 10% turnover per year in student housing, you get 50% turnover. So it's the only asset class that allows you to truly capture the inflation should that materialize. So I think from a demand perspective, you're good from an operational perspective, you're good from a inflation perspective, you good? So I I'm very bullish on, on student housing and the quality of these purpose-built buildings are very high.   I mean, as a, as a parent, I can tell you that if my choice was a basement apartment for my kids with three other friends or one of those buildings, it's a no brainer we try to take and I'd be happy to pay more.   Jesse (34m 53s): Yeah, for sure. And I think when I started investing, it was in Waterloo. I went to school out there and that was, I think, kind of when I was finishing, they started to build these purpose built and, you know, pool rooms, gyms, like, eh, like everything you're describing here. And then the other piece is even compared to, in juxtaposition to regular apartments, where you have tenants that will stay in because we still have rent stabilization in Ontario or rent control in Ontario, you have the turnover. So you have the natural mark to market with, with the rents with student rentals that I think gets overlooked probably through the haze of this idea that students are just trashing these places, which it, you know, if you see, if you see the way that they're built today is not the case.   I'm curious when you are for student rentals, because you see a lot of these companies in, in the, in the states and in Canada that are signing up, sorry, they're, they're buying properties, they're developing them. And then they're actually taking on the property management of the companies. Is that, is that something that's being looked at holistically when you're underwriting those deals?   Andrew (35m 59s): Yeah. I mean, look much like seniors, housing, student housing is very much an operational business. So, you know, as much as I love the asset class, I think the caveat is you have to know what you're doing from an operational perspective. I mean, there's a different level of rapport you have to have with your tenants. You interact a lot more. They're very spontaneous. They want things immediately, right? Like they can't, I have a request for something to be fixed and you get two days later, it has to be immediate. You have to address things right away. So there's a different dynamic with your tenants at the same time.   Look, you are getting substantially higher rents because of this. So there's very much an operational component to the business. And I think the good operators don't know how to do that. And they can create synergies, especially if they have a larger portfolio. And so that's really important. So we do look at who the operator is, and it does make a difference that, you know, you're not a one-off and you understand what it's like to be and manage that asset class. You know, I think the more and more we're seeing consolidation in that as well.   I mean, we're, we're, you know, we're happy to have, you know, aligned with some Woodburn who are the top two operators in that field, and we can see how great they are managing their portfolio, because they understand again, how to manage. And they create synergies by having so many buildings in that, you know, a new player out of the U S Harrison street there they're coming in as well. And they've had experienced operating student housing in the U S so you're starting to see international interest in this asset class. You know, there's, there's squad Rio there, RBC, there are people that are large Canadian institutional investors, CPP, you know, who have large international portfolios, and they've never come into the Canadian market because it was too fragmented and it was too small.   And you know, now that there'll be some amalgamation now that you're starting to see players develop bigger portfolios, I think there'll be more interest because somebody that's large can come in and buy a large portfolio versus the one-off, which again is not going to move the needle. So, you know, again, I love the asset class, but I think it's, it's really important to understand the operational aspect of it, to know that what you, you know, when you're going into it, you need really need to know what you're, what you're doing and how you're dealing with   Jesse (38m 13s): On the, on the construction side for, for student rental, are you seeing companies that are building completely from scratch in some of these towns or, or actually buying existing existing properties and, and converting the use or, or, you know, changing something to student residents, whether that's complete change of use or just adding to the existing?   Andrew (38m 34s): Yeah, I think all of the above, you know, we've seen traditionally, it's been the one-off developers that have built, and then they've sold, you know, to the larger players, like the likes of Woodburn and align best. We're seeing these companies partner up with developers now as well for future developments. We have seen, you know, people come in and buy finished products with the hope that they'll be able to acquire more in that market. I mean, there are certain markets that, you know, certainly Waterloo has had a lot of development.   Kingston near Queens has had a lot of development. Toronto has had a lot of development, you know, I think though for the most part, what people don't understand is that these universities are full and the buildings, the good quality buildings are full as well. And so if you're building a good project, I don't think there's a risk for over-saturation. You know, I'm not worried about what a loo being oversaturated, because when you look at the enrollment, it's increasing substantially every year, and these kids again are coming from abroad, or they're coming from Toronto, or they come from Montreal, they come from other cities, they're there for the quality of the university.   And they're gonna pay if they're paying so much for tuition, they're certainly going to pay an extra a hundred dollars a month to live in a brand new purpose-built building over a, you know, an old basement apartment. So I think the good quality buildings in these places are full and the good operators know how to run them, to keep them full. So I'm, I, I do believe that that this will continue. You know, the other thing is some of the universities own buildings on campus, but they're old buildings, you know, they need retrofitting and to do that, you need to really gut them.   You need to empty them and got them and start them almost, you know, from the beginning, which means there's a, they're gonna decrease supply. Right. Which means that you're going to need more, you know, off-campus supplies. So that, that helps as well. The markets.   Jesse (40m 29s): Yeah, for sure. Andrew, we have four questions. We ask every guests at the end of the show and want to be conscientious of your time before we, before we get into that, we'd just love your thoughts on, on where you see opportunity in maybe the, the short to mid term in, in whether it's Canadian market us, you pick,   Andrew (40m 50s): I would say the only asset class that I really like is the one we just talked about, student housing. I just, I liked the protection against inflation. And I liked the fact that your tenants are not rent sensitive. I would say that is probably my only real opportunity. I mean, I still like multi-racial development providing that it's in the right markets and you have a very longterm outlook on it. You know, I don't think you should be building an apartment building if you have a five-year timeframe.   I think if you're a generational investor and you're building good quality real estate, that you're gonna pass through generations, I still like rent a multifamily, but you know, if you're just buying for the short term, I don't like it as much.   Jesse (41m 35s): Gotcha. All right, Andrew, if you're good to go with these all, I'll fire them off at. Yeah. All   Andrew (41m 40s): Right. Let's see it.   Jesse (41m 42s): Okay. What is something that, you know, now in your career, it can be in first national or, or business in general, you wish you knew when you, when you got started in this industry,   Andrew (41m 55s): You know, I would say understanding the, you need to add value to be properly compensated. And I would say, you know, don't be afraid to ask, to get paid, providing the, you add value. You know, most people, you know, they're always uncomfortable too. And I was too, too, oh, I got to talk about fees now. Well, that's who I got to ask to get paid, but you know what? I've come to realize over the years, if you truly add value, you should get compensated for, for your services.   You know, nobody works for free and you know, you should get paid. But the key though is understand how you add value. So understand who you're dealing with and what it is that you can provide to make that person, that company, that board, that developer better, you know, how do you enhance their life? To me, it's about, you know, making people money, saving the money and mitigating the risks. You know, these are the, this is sort of the mantra I live by. You know, when I talk to somebody it's like, can I help you make more money? Can I help you save money? And can I help mitigate your risk?   If you do these things, you're adding value. And if you add value, I think you should get properly compensated for it.   Jesse (43m 2s): What does mentorship mean to you? And what would you, what piece of advice would you give the younger individuals coming into our industry?   Andrew (43m 11s): You know, mentorship for me was huge. I mean, you know, everything I know in this industry started with Maury and I am forever grateful for, for his mentorship and his guidance and his, you know, introduction to people and watching him, you know, how he talked and how he dealt with people. It was, it was really useful for me. I think as a young person, you know, try really hard to be around good people and try to listen as much as you can. You know, there's so much knowledge and the people that had been around in the industry for a long time, they have so much knowledge, you know, of how deals work of real estate of just so many tidbits that you can pick up along the way.   I would say, if he can really put yourself in an office that's surrounded by and surround yourself with good people, you know, really do that, which is why I'm so adamant about people coming back to work. Cause I think that's the only way you can really learn. You know, you're not going to learn by being on a team skull, you know, you need to be there in person. So surround yourself with good people and just be a sponge, try to learn as much as you can also have a really long term outlook. You know, don't focus too much on what am I going to get paid today? You know, what's my job title today. Think about, you know, what is it that you can learn and are you around good people?   Because if you are, then you're going to learn a lot and you're going to, you know, benefit more in the long run. That's   Jesse (44m 33s): Great. What a book recommendation would, would you be able to give our listeners, we can put it up in the show notes,   Andrew (44m 41s): Huh? Atlas drug, but that's about a thousand pages and that takes a really long time.   Jesse (44m 47s): That's hilarious. I, that is the first we've gotten that. That's a, that's pretty good. And that is a long one though.   Andrew (44m 53s): You know, I, I thought the Steve jobs book was interested in the way he constantly challenged the status quo. You know, whether you like them or didn't like him as a person, I just loved the creativity and the ability to constantly challenge that I'm not satisfied with this, make it better. I want this. And every idea of his was always challenged and questioned, but that's how you create new things. Amazing things.   Jesse (45m 16s): I'll take us a month to make, okay, we need it next week. Last question. The, a nice softball first car make and model   Andrew (45m 26s): A Ford tempo, Ford   Jesse (45m 28s): Tempo. I   Andrew (45m 29s): Like it.   Jesse (45m 31s): That's funny. We had a, we had a Ford Fairlane on which I think, I think it was a car that my dad drove back in the seventies, but that's the first Ford tempo right on Andrew for first of all, thank you so much for coming on for individuals that if they're in the area or want to reach out connect, where's the best place for them to go   Andrew (45m 51s): LinkedIn or the first national website? My contact is there,   Jesse (45m 55s): I guess today has been Andrew Drexler. Andrew, thank you for being part of working capital.   Andrew (45m 60s): My pleasure, Jesse. Thank you.   Jesse (46m 9s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Plugged In Golf Podcast
Jesper Thuen, ECCO Golf

Plugged In Golf Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 25:04


This week, Matt sits down with former professional golfer Jesper Thuen, now the General Manager for ECCO USA, to talk about the evolution of the golf shoe, ECCO's role in pushing spikeless shoes to the fore, and much more.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Using Virtual Assistants to Grow Your Real Estate Business with Bob Lachance  | EP75

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 20, 2021 37:40


Bob Lachance is a Real Estate Investor, a Nationally Recognised Speaker, Mentor and Trainer who Specialises in Helping Customers Build their Businesses through Automation and Outsourcing. Bob currently Owns Four Businesses and Helped Start One of the Nation's Largest Real Estate Coaching Programs. In this episode we talked about: Bob's Bio & Background “Who Not How” mentality Bob's journey from pro hockey player to entrepreneur Why outsourcing is so important in real estate How to Find and Hire the Right Virtual Assistant How to integrate VAs in your business E-mail Management, Cold Calling, Admin Management Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://revaglobal.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/boblachance/ https://www.facebook.com/REVAcareers Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica galley and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I have Bob on the program today. He's a real estate investor.   He's a nationally recognized speaker, mentor trainer, and everything related to real estate. He helps out with, and I believe Bob correct me if I'm wrong. You are a ex pro hockey player.   Bob (44s): I am, I played eight years and four years here. Four years in Europe,   Jesse (48s): Right on, well in recognition of a Leaf's a home opener here. Yeah. Great to have you on how you doing?   Bob (54s): Very good. Very good. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.   Jesse (57s): Awesome. So, Bob, typically what we do, we have a new guests on the show. We do a little bit of a background on the guests. Maybe you could give listeners a little bit of your history as it relates to your career and, and real estate.   Bob (1m 11s): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. W what's fast forward today. I'll back into it. I run a successful virtual assistant company out of the Philippines have been doing since 2014 and also have a, a real estate company. We should be at about a hundred and probably 40 to 50 transactions this year. So we're on, we're on a pretty good trajectory there, but how I got started to get back to that, I went to Boston university on a four year scholarship for a ice hockey league, which has talked about, and then I was fortunate enough to be offered a two year contract by St.   Louis blues. So I left two classes short of getting my degree with the thought process of, you know, you can always go back, but being obviously you've been from Toronto and understanding the hockey mindset, I never went back. So my thought process was I could always go back and get those two classes, but as you know, you know, once life gets in the way it gets rolling. Every summer I lived in Boston, I would be working out training and never ended up back in school.   So it's kind of comical though. It's when you actually go in school or when you're in school, you don't appreciate it as much as when you're actually out. So I, and I'll get back. I'll get to that a little bit later, but just starting with my path. I played at eight years, four years here in us and then four years in Europe. And then my last year I had my first son and my wife was working in the United States and I was in leave. I was in Switzerland at the time and I D I had to decide whether I was gonna hang up the skates or bring her with me.   And she had a very successful career in medical sales at the time. So we decided that, you know, I was going to hang up my skates and figure out what I was going to do with my life. So just probably 99.9% of all people that do real estate. I was reading books and read rich dad, poor dad. I bought a course online, a guy by the name. I think he's an attorney, David wisdom all about real estate, but you know, nothing in particular. I was a course about that thick, probably about 3, 4, 5 inches thick, but I read the thing from top to bottom and decided, Hey, you know what?   I don't have to go back to school to be a real estate investor. So I was a real estate investor. I was quiet, coined myself to rephrase. I coined myself as a real estate investor. This is 2004, started from there. My first flipped in 2004. And I decided to really do it as a, as a passion and a career and got my first business partner. I think it was the end of 2004, 2005. I was actually door knocking to people that were losing their houses.   Pre-foreclosure my buddy gave me a script at the time just, and I knew it and let me, let me rephrase it. I knew nothing like zero. I came from the hockey locker room, which for those of you who actually listened this, that came from any type of locker room, you learn zero in business. You learn how to cuss. You learn how to you learn how to, you know, kinda have a, a, a camaraderie, if you will. But on the business side, you don't learn much. And being in Europe for four years, you don't have a network either like you do have here in the United States.   So when I got back, I was kinda, you know, you're you go through any, any athlete understands this, you go through kind of a depression. I think you're a football player, right? Jesse. Yeah. I played football and hockey and hockey. So after you're done the planning, you understand this, you go, you know, before you start, or even when you join, you jump into a different industry, you go through some sort of, kind of a depression. It's, it's, it's not, I don't like saying the word depressed, but you go through a law if you will. And it takes a little while to find out and really get your team again.   Right? Because when you're hanging out with your buddies and you're hanging out with, you know, you, you know, you got your, you're going to block your butt, you block for your buddy. You're going to pass to your friend, you know, and you're going to win as a team when you're out there as a solo preneur, there is a transition, right? And it took me a little while. And I, you know, when I first got in real estate, I got a deal by myself that a rehab to pretty well made about $32,000 on it. But I also realized that there's no emotion in a dollar, right? When you get a big check the first year, you know, there's a quick high, there's a quick, it's kinda like when you, you know, back in the day, when you took Sudafed three Sudafed before you played, right, you can't do that now, but I'm just saying Sudafed.   So I took a couple Sudafed before I played every game. Maybe some coffee too. And you get that, that you get that quick high, right? You get that quick, quick, Joel. And it's the same thing when you get a big check, but when you take a step back, there's really no emotion in money it's really has to do with the goals that you hit. So I realized I didn't want to work by myself. So I joined a real estate investment association. I saw the speaker on the short-sale industry. So I bought that course and next event again, I had no network.   So the next event I had this, I had to go to within the regroup I had asked, Hey, who's the, who's the best short-sale person in Connecticut. And they all pointed this gentlemen, Patrick, pre-court went up to him say, listen, do you have no idea who I am? I'm not looking for a penny, but are, do you have any openings in your business? He said, you know what? I actually am looking for a door knocker. So for those of you who know what a door knocker is, it's kind of like working your first job as a janitor, and you have to work your way up because it is not sexy.   It's not your you're literally, you have a list of individuals and names, and you're driving from house to house with a script knocking on a door, right. It's door to door sales in essence. So I ended up having a little bit success in that. And then I, I hired someone to take my spot, jumped into negotiating with banks, because we were doing short sales, which means, you know, their, their debt was they're over leveraged. So they had $200,000 of debt. The property is worth a hundred. So now I'm talking to banks on a daily basis negotiating, and then brought myself out of that.   Hired. Somebody started a national coaching program while I was investing, started a virtual assistant staffing company for not only individuals like myself, but for other students as well, that needed extra time in their day that are working part-time or full-time and needed to, you know, needed to, to offs offset some of the tasks. So I know that, sorry about the long-winded answer, but   Jesse (7m 38s): No, that's great. I mean, I think it touches on a, I'm sure there's listeners that are coming from the sports world. I know in real estate, in general, there's a lot of ex players of all sports, but especially here in Toronto, our office is a lot of ex hockey players. My partner was drafted to the pens, played ECHL, kind of went all over and really didn't start in brokerage until he was in his late twenties. I think it was, yeah, it was late twenties. And I can a hundred percent appreciate the fact that, you know, you got somebody staying late in the office and you're trying to figure out what what's this guy doing.   And he's just trying to just get caught up on things that, you know, guys had, you know, Excel and just being able to figure out the emails and everything. But I think that's probably what, at least on the brokerage. And that's probably what the draw is for a lot of players to come over to brokerage because you get that team camaraderie aspect that you maybe don't get in other businesses. And certainly not as a, a solopreneur. So Bob, when you, when you got into kind of, when you say door knocking, you mentioned that you were doing some flips at that point, was it starting to get into the flipping business and that's you started doing transactions there or was that something separate?   Bob (8m 49s): Yeah, so I actually did it my first flip. It was just driving for dollar. So I saw a, a house that was, you know, needed it, it needed a roof, it was beat up. You could tell it was vacant. So I got in called the broker, actually it was listed property, got in, walked in, opened the door. And there was like a, a rancid smell of cats CRN. Right. So I opened the door and I'm like, all right, I read in this book that, you know, a lot of people are going to turn away from this. So I ended up making an offer. I think the property is listed for 180 5. I made an offer at 1 35 and lo and behold, the owner accepted it.   And I was like, oh, what do I do now? Right. Obviously you need money, you need contractors, you need all that kind of cool stuff. But I figured it out, ended up doing okay. And then after that, it was just, you know, I had zero systems, zero marketing, nothing. Right? So that's when I actually got a door knocking when I met my future business partner and he actually taught me, he said, listen, you know, he'd go door to door. Here's one of the, the systems and strategies for getting motivated sellers to sell your houses. So my whole mindset was, I want to start from ground up to learn the business because if one day I'm in, this is what pat taught me.   He was my old business partner that, you know, the, the success rate of businesses that last two years is not very high. I think it's, I don't even know the rate. It's very, very low of any business being successful, let alone partnerships. So John me that's my mindset was, you know what? I got to learn everything from ground up just in case I have to start my own company, whether it's a brokerage, whether it's a real estate investment company, whatever that looks like. I think it's very important for everybody to learn from foundation down or foundation up, I should say.   Jesse (10m 28s): Mm. Yeah. Fair enough. So you, you kind of, you start getting into hitting your stride in terms of doing transactions, moving up in the career in terms of where you're at now. Cause you mentioned kind of on the outset talking about virtually virtual assistance and that business. And I think it kind of takes a theme of a lot of people that we've come on the podcast, basically the who, not how mindset of, of basically trying to figure out what tasks are absolutely mission critical that you do, which ones can you outsource?   How do you do that? Can you afford it? So how did you get into that side of the business?   Bob (11m 3s): Yeah, it was interesting cause we, 2007, we actually got approached. There's a company called fortune builders here in Connecticut. And, but three of our buddies that actually started it, we're, we're flipping properties. They're were flipping properties. We would wholesale them. Some properties, we'd do some short sales together, a bunch of different stuff. And they approached us because pat and I actually started our first education program with a company out of Florida, end of 2005, 2006, and then 2007, when they were launching fortune billers, they said, Hey, listen, we've never done fulfillment.   We've never done coaching. How do you, you know, what do you guys do? And then we started mapping it out and they said, Hey, you guys want to be partners with us handshake partners. Right? So we were, our job was to take care of this. And, and then we grew that to, I think the biggest, they were were probably about $300 million in sales. Well, took care of the backend, started a coaching program from ground up hired coaches filled from within. And so after going probably through and working with over 30, 40,000 students, there's a lot of common themes, right?   Not only with my own business, but a lot of our students were either working part-time or full-time. And one of the things that we've noticed, I mean, you probably see this in your business. They're not making any more time. There's 24 hours in a day. There's not much time left to do a lot of this stuff. So I was always looking for some sort of service or product to, to help our students. And then in 2013, I actually got introduced to what a virtual assistant was and virtual assistants most likely when I talk about it, it's someone who doesn't live in the country.   Right. And I know there's, there's people that live in country in the same country that are virtual assistants, but not in the same state, et cetera. But I got introduced to a couple of different countries. I tried India, I tried Pakistan. I tried south America. The best virtual assistants that I found were in the Philippines. So after a year of working with them, a light bulb went on and I said, you know what? There's a business here. And the partner that I had at the time had no idea what I was talking about, but I said, listen, I said, you're using virtual assistance.   I said, you're pretty good on the systems and processes. I helped start coaching firms. So let's create training right behind the virtual assistant industry. So we started launched our first company, 2014, tested there for two years for proof of concept. It was a big hit. And then, you know, fast forward today, we're at over, they were at about 560 virtual assistance within, within a couple countries.   Jesse (13m 43s): So I'm curious on that point about trying different countries, whether it's Pakistan, India, like you see a lot of, you know, Upwork or fi wherever people kind of go resources that they use to look for virtual assistance. And it's been my experience too. I've had a, I've had three virtual assistants, the Philippines, two of them, the Philippines one, not in the Philippines. And I found the same thing. And I hear a lot of people that even just colleagues of mine or friends of mine, one just comes to mind, just started a Keller Williams brokerage on the residential side.   And they have found success in that side. Is there, is there something about what you were looking for or real estate that it seems to be the Philippines keeps coming up as, as the place to go?   Bob (14m 24s): Yeah. I just think it's really more cultural based. The Philippines Philippine culture is very family oriented. They look at your business as their business and they really, you know, they, they have a lot of pride in what they do. That's one thing, but also English is one of their main languages there. A lot of people don't realize that. Of course there's other kind of other kinds of like tagalo is one of them, but English is what they're taught and the newer generation too. And they're getting, you know, their English and accents getting, you know, more improved each year that they, you know, they've learned and they, you know, think about this now they got the internet here.   They're watching YouTube to watch a Netflix all day long, et cetera. So it just improves on that side of it. So we just selected that because of those main reasons.   Jesse (15m 13s): Yeah. It was one thing I was really surprised by when I started looking into this was, you know, part of the, the friend I mentioned the business that they were doing was cold calling. And like, to me, I was like, you can't outsource cold calling you can't and they say, well, why can't you? It's like, well, we outsource it. Like we, we teach younger guys and gals every day in our office there. Why can't you do that? And part of it was the first question was if you're in Toronto, you're in Boston, you're in New York, like you have the cultural or the, the proficiency in English is one thing, but not to have an accent and immediately think it's a cold call is another thing.   And what surprised me is that the people that we interview in the Philippines, like the first one had a UK accent, like fluent. And, you know, as a north American, there's, there's nothing better than a cold call from somebody from the UK or it's just a very, in a very endearing or disarming accent. So that was something for sure. I, I, I could see that a hundred percent that every year you're starting to get that proficiency up higher and higher to the point where yeah, you can hire for cold calling. It's just a matter of them teaching, teaching them the same way you would teach somebody local on the specific task of cold calling.   Bob (16m 24s): Yeah. And that's a great point. I literally had a, I had a presentation or a, I don't know if it was a podcast or a webinar to a, a real estate. It was a, it was a mix of investors and agents. And we had that this same conversation. And a lot of people don't realize is that, you know, I live in the Northeast, Northeast, Connecticut, United States. And I don't know if anyone's ever been there, but you know, growing up in Boston and Connecticut, there, there's a different kind of attitude there with people.   Right. So if they are okay with having a Filipino call them and they're giving them information, then anybody in this world will be okay with someone from the Philippines because you know, the attitudes of the Northeast are kind of like, you know, they look at you a certain way, like, what's your angle? What are you putting in that? So, so just, just to that kind of going off of that, if you have the right script and like you said, they follow a process, the main thing for any, whether it's it's the brokerage side or the investment side, the only thing that you want as an operator is for them to pretty screen that potential lead to say, yes, I'm interested to talk to either Bob or Jesse or whoever.   That's all you want. You do not want any, any virtual assistant closing a deal for it. Because if you do, it's your, it won't work. It's your business to close those deals. So driving those motivated leads to you. It's a, it's a very good way to keep your energy.   Jesse (17m 57s): Yeah. I think that's, that's for those listening that are looking at on the say on the investment side, you're calling off market deals because of how crazy our market is right now, especially industrial and multi-racial, but you're calling those owners of property. And you're trying to figure out if they're sellers. The, the thing that clicked for me, especially with the VA side of things is that their goal is not the same as yours. When you're calling, when I'm calling. It's a certain, I know that I have the ability to pivot to it, to the sale, but even for myself, the first part of the call is usually, you know, not somebody is not going to say, okay, yeah, well, I'll sell right here.   So what I underestimated was what you just said, the piece about them, first of all, their goal is to get them in contact with, you know, their team lead or their that's, who that's you, whoever, you know, whatever way you describe getting that call, but it's basically booking a meeting for us and to, to actually close the deal. And what I underestimated was that, that layer of having that seniority, when you go on the call, it actually helps you because it looks like you, you know, you have a staff of people that your, your time is valuable too.   You're not just calling.   Bob (19m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. And, and it weeds through a lot of the thinking about this. If you're sitting by your desk all day long, calling four hours a day, I guarantee you will be burnt out. Right. I mean, it did for me. So what I did, I didn't finish my, actually my, I didn't finish my story on every day from 10 o'clock to 3:00 PM, I would door knock. And then I would go home in that same list, I'd go to either white pages, four eleven.com or whatever. And I would skip trace the number in out and hammer the phones before I would have dinner. Cause obviously my wife would have killed me if I, if I kept working all night, but that's what I would do all day long and over time.   And that beats you up, that beats you up. If you're hammering that all doing that, if that's the only thing you're going to do. Yeah.   Jesse (19m 44s): That's a lot of fatigue. I mean, even, even in our industry, you do that for your first couple of years at most. And then hopefully, you know, you get some, some deal volume. So Bob, in terms of, for somebody that's, they are completely outside of the realm of, of hiring somebody. It doesn't seem like something that'd be part of their business at this point. A lot of times people that justification will be the costs, which, you know, I think Kevin kind of get dispelled fairly quickly with the fact that you're outsourcing it. But the, just the fact that talk a little bit about the need for one, when people say, I don't think I'm at that stage yet.   Yup.   Bob (20m 22s): And I look at it. It's, it's funny. You said that. Cause I had this conversation earlier with someone too, I look at is, and this is not what I, I, how I looked at things when I first started, I look at things as an investment now. Right. So if you're going to hire somebody, it's not a cost, it's an investment. Right? So we just added a transaction coordinator in our office. And that to me is a huge investment because that's going to give your team is going to be way more right then if you don't have it.   So that's the way I look at adding a, let's say a cold color because you have to look at what we do on a daily basis. And you say, okay, if I'm doing a $10 an hour task, most likely I'm gonna have a $10 an hour bank account, right? Because if you're doing those tasks, our jobs as business owners or whatever role managers, whatever role we are is not to be cold calling all day. It's not to be, you know, spending our time prospecting. It's not to be, you know, doing admin work, posting social media, doing all of that stuff that you should literally look at your calendar for the next two weeks, write down all of your tasks, identify what tasks you could take off of your plate and pass off to somebody else.   Whether it's a virtual assistant or your office assistant, whatever it is. Right. And then you'll realize like, wow, I actually have 20 plus more hours of my week. Hey, you may, you may decide to go to a Leafs game then and get out of office, get out of your office early. But if you have that extra time, then you could decide, Hey, do I want to use that to build this or build this or build this or go on vacation or whatever it is. But you'll realize with an extra 20 hours, you can do a lot.   Jesse (22m 5s): Yeah. For sure. What do you find from the individuals that you work with in real estate? What do you find is the task that they find that is the one that they end up saying, this is something I, I need more time to do or when they take these other things off their plate, they're like, this is really the thing I should be focusing on.   Bob (22m 23s): So are you saying that the tasks typically that they're doing, are you saying then that when that's off or do they do   Jesse (22m 29s): Once, once they offload, like you said, you go through your tasks, you, you identify the ones that you don't need to be there that you can offload to the VA after that, do you find there's one or two tasks that those individuals find that, okay, here, this is what I should be focusing on. Okay.   Bob (22m 44s): So yeah, that's kind of tough question, but I'll give you, I'll give you the answer of me personally. What happens when you, you're not overwhelmed and you're not looking at this phone, you want you, you're not checking the list and checking the box. You could actually take a step back and look at your business through a 10,000 foot overview. And once you actually can do that, it's kind of like sports, right? When you're, when you get better, the game gets slower, right? So it's kind of the same concept. And in, in, in business, if you could then have more time, you could pull yourself out, you could see how things are moving, right.   They move really, really slow. So now you'll be looking at your acquisition team, how many calls and now you can really oversee them. How many calls are they doing? Maybe you're going to listen to calls maybe, oh, you're going to realize, now you need to add another individual on your team. So you could really look at it on a and again, this all depends on what type of business you're in. If you're in the commercial brokerage right now, you're going to be building relationships, going to dinner with a banker or with a v-neck or you'll have that much more time to build your business and look at your business in a different light.   Does that, does that?   Jesse (23m 51s): It makes sense. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think it, it, it is probably a tough question because I find it'll probably be different for each type of individual and worker or, or type of entrepreneur, especially. I think that's a good point because I feel like most entrepreneurs like pure entrepreneurs at heart, I think are, are creative and big picture. And part of, one of the worst things you can do is get them bogged down in, in my new HSA and task oriented things. And like you said, it's almost like a it's sports or it's like Neo in the matrix, everything kind of slows down and you know, you're seeing everything around you and you can finally say, you know, what are we doing in six months?   What are we doing a year from now? And have that big picture plan.   Bob (24m 33s): Yeah. And you can start, you can start doing quarterly, you know, start setting quarterly goals. And you know, a great book has traction. Right? Very, very good book to read, to start that scaling up as another one, but it's really good. You could now start implementing this in your business and you could do more training. You know, there's nothing more important as you know, is, is training your team because, you know, if you could have spend more time on the ground with the team training, they're going to be that much better themselves in the companies you have that much better.   Yeah.   Jesse (25m 3s): Fair enough. So when you let, for example, if you have somebody that, whether it's, you know, most listeners are on the real estate end on the investment side, when you have an individual that's looking for a virtual assistant, they hire the virtual assistant. Do you find that there's kind of a hierarchy of tasks that you, you know, you say start with these types of things before you go, for instance, into more sales oriented stuff. So here's an email list that we need cleaned up, or here's a know here's some administration work that we need done and then move them towards sales or cold calling or acquisition, or is there it's, everything's, you know, everybody's different.   Bob (25m 42s): Yeah. You know what, that's an extra, very good question. And the answer is everyone's different. We identify that right or front, because the way our process is we have a sourcing and recruiting team in the Philippines. We also have a training team where they train three to four weeks a month on real estate tasks. And then we have a placements team where we use predictive and index and disc profiling. So once it gets to the placements team, we already know when sales comes in, when an individual wants a cold call, or let's say, it's almost like match.com and in placements, right.   They match up the, the disc profile, that predictive index in the qualities that, that particular virtual assistant has with the tasks that you're looking for, I'm looking for. So that's what we do as a company to match them up. Because you know, you know, this, if you've ever, if you've ever gone on a company like Upwork, it's a pain in the butt, right. You have to sift through hundreds and hundreds. I mean, I hired here in my office and I use wise hire or indeed or whatever, it's the concept I got to do all the heavy lifting.   Right. So we, what we did in our, my Reva global company is we funded all of that heavy lifting and just hand it over to them.   Jesse (26m 53s): Yeah. It's funny. It's almost a, the irony of when you do go on Upwork, you almost want a virtual assistant to, to hire for you on Upwork tonight. When you, when you say disk, just, just so I'm following you, it's like the personality tests, like the, the profile. Okay. So you go to that, to that level of, of granularity when you're trying to match up the VA with the professional. Yep. Correct. And what, what was the kind of the origin of that approach where you start actually looking at all right, is this person really psychologically the right person for this task or for this, this matchup?   Yeah.   Bob (27m 32s): And you started looking at that over the years. You know, it started, like I said, I started this in 2014, you'll realize that, you know, cold callers tend to be a certain kind of profile. Right. And you'll have, you know, bookkeepers are a certain type of profile because you'll never want to put, and I'll give you an example. These is accurate it's dominance, right? So you have dominance and eyes for influence interaction or interactive. So those type of individuals, they love being on the phone. Right.   You know, just the fi finish up that S S is for, for a steadiness and a CS for consciousness. Those are more of your bookkeepers that are really attention to detail. You know, you know, there's a lot of salespeople, you know, their attention to detail. Sometimes you don't want them.   Jesse (28m 19s): There's a couple of zeros there.   Bob (28m 21s): Exactly. So that's how we look at that to, to help, you know, find the best fit.   Jesse (28m 27s): Yeah. And I think that's a missing piece with a lot of it. I think that goes for not even VAs. I think that's just hiring in general, trying to match up culture. And that's, you know, it goes back to the beginning of our discussion here, you know, where you have certain industries, I find are more conducive to X athletes. It's a very, you'll have very similar cultures and working together.   Bob (28m 49s): Yep. Yeah. There's I mean, you know, ex athletes, it's typically it's sales, right? You got a lot of Phi X app, that's going in a financial industry, right. Medical industry, same thing, pharmaceutical industry. That's a lot of how, how a lot of these companies, actually, I got a buddy that's pretty high up in principal financial, and that's what they do. They look at, you know, they look at resumes from, from bigger companies. And I know there's a lot of colleges that are tying to some companies now, which is actually really, really, really good.   And you know, the funnel.   Jesse (29m 21s): Yeah. Would you not to put you on the spot here, but would you be able to name a couple tasks or jobs that you would think, or that most people think is, is something they wouldn't put on a VA, but, but you've, you've found success in it or are there certain things that people are surprised that VA's can, can do?   Bob (29m 43s): Yeah. I mean, on the multifamily level, just talk about the multifamily side. We have a lot of our multi-family investors. We have a lot of our blog. We have a lot of single family investors that own hundreds of units. Right. I have one individual that has 15 virtual assistants with us that does everything from bookkeeping to taking tenant calls, to doing tenant placements. Right. So those are some of the things off the bat right away. The other marketing properties that are actually some of those properties that go vacant, someone needs to then start marketing them and push them around to all of the sites that they have.   The there's a, some syndicated sites. So you push them out too. So there's a lot of those types of tasks that other people don't think of in reference to that. Another one is, is a big part of all of our businesses. I mean, you have a podcast, right. It's using a virtual assistant to splice up your videos and send it out to your, whether it's your email list or whatever list that you have posting it on YouTube posting on Instagram, posting it on Facebook, all that kind of stuff that takes a lot of time. And it's a pain in the butt, right.   So I have a podcast. That's what we do.   Jesse (30m 52s): Yeah. 100%. It is a, it becomes a bit of a full-time job, but, and once you hit your stride with something like that, really the hardest, the hardest part I found is the, is that setup piece. So like you're saying whether it's going an Upworker, it's going on another site, it really, a lot of it is that finding people and you find, you find that you, you really need a virtual system for that job itself, just trying to get other people on.   Bob (31m 15s): Yup. Yeah, for sure. And, and, you know, it took me a little while at the beginning and that, that was the business model that we, we figured out at the beginning because of the pain, you know, I felt you could go for places that, you know, I always look at in this kind of funny, you look at, I look at my company, I'm not the cheapest. Right. And I've, I've come to realize after 17 plus years in business, if you go for the cheapest, you're going to get the cheapest. Right. That's the way it's pretty, you know, you start looking at that, the older we get, you start seeing things a little different.   And I always go back to, to this one of my first houses I ever bought, I bought a home Depot cheap door for 99 bucks. And the, and it was a you're the next door and every winter and every summer, my, either he bill or electric bill was through the roof. And I was looking at that door doors. I think I probably should've spent probably over 500 bucks and I probably would have saved thousands of them, thousands and thousands of dollars. So that's the way I look at, you know, you pay for in life, you pay for what you get rewarded, you pay for   Jesse (32m 22s): Yeah. A hundred percent. So just wrapping up close to the end here, we usually have a set of questions. We ask every guest, but before we do them, I'm, you know, selfishly on the VA side, I have a question about email and calendar management and, you know, just like a lot of these things that you think can't get outsourced, that it turns out that you can, from an email management point of view, how, what do you recommend if somebody is they've, you know, for whatever business it is, they want somebody to offload or shoulder some of the things that they're doing through email, you know, for strategies from that point of view, whether it's calendar and email, just email and you know, what techniques do you find these that, that people are, that are the VA's are doing?   Are, you know, the aggregating, the most important ones. Are you training them up on that piece?   Bob (33m 13s): Yeah. So just on, on email management, I mean, we could get, I don't know how many emails you get a day, but I get a billion. Right. And you get some that don't, you know, they're just junk mail. You signed up for a Travelocity Expedia and they sell your email over to something else and they sell it to something else. Right. So I find what works out well as virtual assistance, just sifting through and going through each, probably each hour and then getting through some of those. And then we set up a side email to send the really important ones over to.   So that's how it worked out very well. It saves that does save a lot of time. I know it sounds so simple, but if you actually took the time and you're like, all right, you're looking at, you're looking at your emails, how many junk emails you actually get per day or emails that just waste your time and are not important for you on a daily basis. It's hours upon hours on a day.   Jesse (34m 8s): Yeah. And it's, it's time is one piece of it. But I think another piece for sure is just the stress. It's, you know, when you look at your phone and there's 200 emails or there's 78, whatever it is like you go, if somebody can be like, okay, I have somebody, whatever. I was just text message or emailed. I know those are the important ones. I don't have to stress about it. I can manage it. Yeah.   Bob (34m 26s): And I, I know if anyone's like me, it's I look at this, I gotta get mine down to zero.   Jesse (34m 31s): Yeah. I'm the same way. I, if it's over like 20, I'm starting to get stressed. Awesome. Well, we've got four questions. We typically ask every guest. So if you are a, if you're ready to go off, throw them at you, let's do it. All right. What's something, you know, now in your career or business, you wish you knew when you started out   Bob (34m 52s): Don't chase the shiny objects. Because typically those shiny objects where losing a lot of money and wasted a lot of time.   Jesse (34m 60s): I like it in terms of mentorship for younger people getting into, in, into the industry, whether it's real estate or other specific areas, what would you say to them? What's your view on mentorship?   Bob (35m 12s): I say 100% invest in it. 100% because mentors will cut your learning curve over time and will make you way more money than being a, a lone Wolf in a, in a solo preneur and saying, Hey, I can do it all myself. You know, if you learn anything from, from, from sports it's you need a team. I don't care if it's Wayne Gretzky, right? Wayne, Gretzky has a team with them. Doesn't matter. Right? I mean, look, how good look, how good Toronto is? They have a lot of sprinkles stars, right?   If they learn how to play together, they might win a cup. Right?   Jesse (35m 46s): So fingers crossed any resources or books you're reading right now that you'd, you can share with the listeners.   Bob (35m 55s): I would, I would definitely say books like scaling up or traction or some of the books that 100% I would highlight. And we talk about our, in our business, outside these walls here all the time. And I think those are, if you're going to read some books, those are very, very powerful books. The other one is one of the, the ones that I think is for me, it has been very powerful as a it's called a compound effect. Darren. That's a very good one. Yep.   Jesse (36m 21s): First car make and model.   Bob (36m 23s): First car was a Nissan Maxima, white Nissan Maxima. This is when I got my signing bonus. I bought a used one. So it was back. This is hallway back.   Jesse (36m 33s): That's awesome. Right on Bob. Where, where can listeners find you on the interwebs?   Bob (36m 40s): Yep. Actually you go to my website@rivaglobal.com, R E V a global.com. I'm on Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. So you can find us there. We have a podcast called Friday coffee break. It's on every Friday at 10:00 AM. Eastern standard time. So you check me out there and yeah, all my contact information is out there.   Jesse (37m 4s): My guest today has been Bob Bob. Thanks for being part of working capital.   Bob (37m 9s): Awesome, Jesse, thanks for having me.   Jesse (37m 18s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
What's Next for The Real Estate Market? With CoStar's Senior Economic Consultant Joseph Biasi | EP74

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 13, 2021 45:31


Joseph Biasi spends his Days Analysing Economic Trends and their Relationship with Commercial Real Estate for CoStar – the Leading Real Estate Data Analytics and Aggregator in the US.  In this episode we talked about: Joseph's Bio & Activity Commercial Real Estate Market Outlook Retail Property Analysis Industrial Real Estate Overview Interest Rates Government Policy Single Family VS Multifamily Real Estate The Effect of Inflation on Real Estate Investors Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.costar.com Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Joseph Biassi. Joseph spends his days analyzing economic trends and the relationship with the commercial real estate sector. And he works for CoStar advisory services. For those of you that don't know what CoStar is, they're the leading real estate data analytics and aggregator in the us. And I'm not sure if Canada as well, but I wouldn't be surprised we use them pretty much every day. They're our go-to for analytics, for properties, for research and a part of our underwriting process. Joseph, how's it going? Great. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Do I have that right, Joseph, in terms of CoStar where they're at today, maybe you could, you could let the audience know a little bit about your position there and CoStar in general and what you guys do. Sure. Yeah. Joseph(1m 10s): CoStar is a data analytics platform and a data vendor. We, we track pretty much every commercial building that we can at least get research on across the United States. We are moving into Canada as well, more and more. We're getting better coverage in Canada and as well as Europe, my job in particular is I sit on top of that data as a consultant. I'm a senior consultant with advisory services. And my job in particular is to advise client both developers as well as investors on macro economic and commercial real estate trends Jesse (1m 45s): Right on. Yeah. What I've noticed is we have, I think 84, 85 offices now, and we've, we've pretty much switched over completely to CoStar and that goes for Canadian and, and us markets, but it's definitely come a long way in terms of the coverage that we have at least, you know, in our major markets, you pretty much, you've got everything covered there. Speaker 1 (2m 7s): Yeah. I mean, we've been really pushing research recently. Speaker 0 (2m 11s): So this was, this was something we were at, we were at this panel and in new Orleans this past, I guess two weekends ago now, and we were talking about, you know, where, where people can find information, those people looking for deals in the market and a lot of, a lot of what we do on the investing side and not just in brokerage, but we'll, you know, when we tried to track down owners, a lot of times we're looking at properties on CoStar trying to find the beneficial, the true owners and reach out to them directly for off market deals. Speaker 1 (2m 38s): Yeah. So I, I, before actually, before I worked at CoStar, worked in brokerage. And so I was, I I've been a user, it's a fantastic site for anybody who wants to do any kind of real estate deals, right. On a little biased, but Speaker 0 (2m 52s): Yeah, a little biased. So in terms of the, the actual market, I thought what would be, will be just that would be useful and educational for our listeners is talking a little bit about what's been going on in the market over the last year or two and the outlook for the next, let's call it a mid to mid to longterm. And by longterm for me, I think five years, I don't think longer than that, but yeah. You know, let's talk a little bit about the commercial real estate market in general, over the last two years, how have things changed in terms of the data that you're seeing in terms of the way you approach the market and, and your analysis? Speaker 1 (3m 31s): Great question. Yeah. So, you know, when the pandemic hit, I think there was a lot of fear going around and that translated into a lot less commercial real estate deals, particularly in the office sector. Everybody began to work from home. We knew, we noticed a pretty steep drop off in transaction activity, which has since returned. And that's, that's pretty much been the story is we had this initial 20, 20 decline, a couple of, a couple of quarters of, you know, pretty severe transaction volume decline. And it's all become back effectively, but it's come back in a very different way. And that's the actual story behind what's happening in the commercial real estate market is if you look at the macro macro numbers, you know, total amount of transaction, the total transaction volume is back. But if you look at where that's happening, it's very different. For example, the Dallas Fort worth had more transaction activity in 2020, the first half of 2021 than New York. That's not normal. We're seeing, we're seeing those rooms moved down to, if you're talking about retailer, multi-family, we're seeing them move down to the south, the study United States, as opposed to, you know, the new York's and the San Francisco's of the world. Phoenix is another market we've seen, which is, I suppose, as a Western market, those, those Sunbelt markets are where we're seeing the most demographic growth. We're seeing the most transaction activity. And we're seeing the biggest pricing gains across all four, four major property types Speaker 0 (4m 55s): In terms of the, to go from geographic to the property types, if, you know, starting with retail, I guess. Cause that's, that's the one where when the pandemic first started, there was the big question of retail, which I think for, for the most part has been overbuilt. I don't think it's a surprise in the U S Canada. Canada's pretty. Yeah. I mean, we are as well, but I think we're somewhere in between the U S and in most European countries on a per square foot basis. But talk about retail, you know, how has that analysis been over the last, you know, call it a year to two years? Speaker 1 (5m 29s): I think retail, it, at least in my opinion is one of the most fascinating property types. Like, yeah, you're absolutely right. There needs to be some level of rationalization. If the landscape has changed, it is no longer the place where people go deep. The only place people go shopping to buy goods, that doesn't mean it's going away and there's still, I would argue opportunities. And I think that's the way we've been trying to, to talk about retail, which is look, you know, you're not, if you're looking at a class B or class seem, all those are going to struggle, but if you're looking at, you know, there's still good opportunities and you just, there's a lot more nuance and a lot more detail that you need to look into for a retail building the tenants matter so much in a retail building, even more than an office or an industrial building, because if you have a good grocery anchor, a neighborhood center in a well-populated area, that's still a good asset. And that, that I think has kind of been, under-reported just due to the fear around retail during the pandemic and the fear around retail because of e-commerce. Speaker 0 (6m 36s): Yeah. It's a, it's one of those things that we've always talked about that, you know, good grocery store, anchored retail. I can't imagine in a lot of these markets, if anything, they were a bit, some of those properties were buoyed by the fact that the only places that were open were the Walmarts or, you know, these grocery stores that were anchored. Speaker 1 (6m 54s): Exactly. And we're, you know, we are seeing, you know, returns to normal leasing patterns in the Southern states where, you know, where retail really does follow rooftops. And in those Southern states, we've seen pretty much a full recovery, and we've seen a pretty much a full recovery in terms of pricing as well. Whereas if you talk about, you know, these, these tertiary markets in the Midwest, or some of these coastal gateway markets that have really struggled during the pandemic, there's still, there's still losing people. They're still struggling to kind of recover. Speaker 0 (7m 25s): So have you seen, I know you, you track a lease terms and different differently structures. Have you seen a difference in the way that retailers are approaching their leases? You know, where you could have some retailers in the past doing 5, 10, 15, 20 year leases, has that, has that shifted or is it, is it too early to tell Speaker 1 (7m 43s): It's a, it's a little early to tell, just because we're, we're finally kind of getting back at least down south, but the, the tenants that they're looking for at certainly become far more focused on either, you know, necessity based retail, certain tenants like dollar stores. So these, these discount stores are doing really well. And then experience-based tenants have done are something that landlords are really looking into as a long-term longer-term play. At some point, this pandemic will become less and less, have less and less of an effect on the economy. And a lot of landlords believe that the future of real estate of retail is experiential. That you're drawing people there for something more than just a shopping experience. Speaker 0 (8m 28s): Does CoStar track the rezoning or reclassification of buildings in terms of, for example, one of the, one of the, the guesses that, you know, that we have is that retail and, and certain types of office buildings may be converted, maybe switch the use might be switched even in hospitality, potentially hospitality going to multi-family. But if do you track that type of thing? Speaker 1 (8m 54s): Yeah. It hasn't occurred as much as you would think, given the amount of airtime, not an ink that's been spilled on it. It really hasn't happened. It does happen, you know, so I went to college in Worcester and the Greendale mall in Worcester got turned into an Amazon distribution center, but that isn't really the rural quite yet. They're still working on that because, you know, it's, a lot of people think that a mall is going to turn into an industrial center, like a distribution center, and it's more likely to be knocked down and turned into multi-family center because it's still the highest and best use is, is multifamily for a dense urban area. We're, we're, we're starting to see some of these malls really struggle. Speaker 0 (9m 36s): Yeah. I think you're absolutely right with the amount of ink that's been spelled as a that's been spilled on it because it is one of those things, I guess, more of an academic thing. It's logical to think that okay. But I think the reality is you get in transaction costs the actual time it takes to convert these things. There's a little bit more that goes on with it. If you, if you kind of slide from retail, move into the, the office space. So my partner and I on the brokerage on predominantly work in office investment sales, as well as leasing, they, I don't, you know, despite some of, you know, what, what has been said last year, that markets haven't been affected. I just think a lot of people were saying certain things were, what we saw was a large, large drop-off in office. And not surprisingly, I'm assuming that's, that's what you S what you've seen. And if not, maybe you could provide some insight there. Speaker 1 (10m 26s): All right. No, absolutely. I, I, if you look at where most of the transaction activity has fallen off, it's been an office and it really has a lot to do with uncertainty. Right. It's, you know, what will work from home look like in five years from now, because if you, and you know, this probably better than I do, if you're buying an office for your leasing office, it's, it's a five to 10 year lease or three to 10 years typically. So you're, you're really guessing what's going to happen down the road. So when you're buying office, it's, it's a little scary right now. And I, I understand that the shop view for CoStar advisory services, and I do not speak for all of CoStar district health, say for CoStar advisory services, is that, you know, the office, there will be less demand for office because I work from home, but we don't believe this is the death of office everybody's going to be working remotely. And we also don't believe that. And I personally don't believe that, you know, these downtown offices are going to, you know, go away anytime soon. I I've in that downtown, these downtown clusters are going to severely struggle. I think the actual concern for office, if we want to think about where, where we might see struggle is those class B offices in urban areas that have less, that don't have as good a commutability score that aren't dark, aren't able to draw. Don't have the same amount of amenities. Those, I think are the ones that well, we think are going to struggle a little bit more. Yeah. It's funny. You Speaker 0 (11m 53s): Mentioned that I was having a conversation with a, with a colleague of mine. And I was, we were talking about that specific thing where a lot of suburban markets actually, haven't been doing particularly poorly with office and then these downtown connected, but there's, these Midtown markets are like these markets that are tertiary markets, that if, unless they have good connectivity, it's a really, you know, there's a question mark about how they'll do well, we've also seen though, is that the, the office side, like you were saying before, the underwriting has changed to the extent that, you know, we, they want to see is what type of tenant, what, you know, where are they in the lease? What are their rights? And, and it's funny too, that you mentioned five-year and then kind of went back to three-year because what we've seen is that, you know, when I started in brokerage, really, it was rare to find even three-year head leases. It was typically a five-year minimum. Where now, if one thing has happened from COVID, we've seen all kinds of different lease lease terms. Speaker 1 (12m 47s): Yeah. I mean, if you, if you think about going to selling a building, occupancy matters more than anything else, even, you know, that's the, that's the first and only thing I, if you have to take some rent losses, you'd rather take some rent losses and lose occupancy. So peop landlords are for office buildings are, you know, it is definitely a tenants market right now, but we, in terms of the, the urban areas, I think the reason they lose out is because the downtown offices have that commutability and then the suburban offices have that advantage of being able to drive to them. If I'm in, I'm in Boston, which is a famously difficult Metro to drive in. And there's no way I'm going to go drive to, let's say Brighton, which is just outside the main city to go to an office there, but I'd be willing to go to suburban office and I'd be willing to take the T down to than the downtown crossing, for example. Speaker 0 (13m 37s): Yeah, for sure. And you, you know, one thing too, is like we've had, what we've seen is that the CFO or COO, depending on, or the real estate, you know, facilities manager, whoever's dealing with the company's real estate. It has been a lot of like kicking the can down the road, because like you said, it's, it's, you're making a decision. That's going to impact five, 10 years. Whereas if you're buying an investment, one thing you can say is that interest rates are where they're at right now. You can, you can, you know, logically pursue maybe a little bit more risky investment, but for the people that work at a company, they're like, I'm not going to make a decision where in a year from now I could look like this was the terrible, the worst thing I did for the company. Speaker 1 (14m 12s): Right. Right. Exactly. Speaker 0 (14m 14s): So if we, okay, so that's retail office. If we switch now to, to industrial, because one thing that was really a cool stat that I saw when, when COVID just happened was the fact that retail sales did not decrease. It's just where the sales happen changed. Right. There was a pivot to online sales, total sales didn't D decrease, at least at the beginning of the pandemic, the data that I was looking at. So I'm curious, I mean, I think it's no surprise industrial's doing pretty well today. Speaker 1 (14m 48s): Yeah, no, it's not. It's no surprise. And it continued to do well. The pandemic, you are somehow seeing cap rate declines, which I think if you said two years ago, most people would be like, there's no way, but I just given how quickly we begun to really shift into e-commerce and the, you know, the room to run in terms of e-commerce. If you look at Europe, Europe uses e-commerce far more than the United States does still, but kind of going back to your point about retail sales it's, I've been tracking it very closely for that specific reason. If you look at retail sales, and this is because, you know, the government stepped in and enacted a lot of stimulus by, by June of 2020 retail sales had more sales than you would expect, given what you would expect pre pandemic. So if you forecast it out pre pandemic, but retail sales should be, and it's a fairly linear trend, you would expect them to have, you know, X amount of retail sales. And we're, we've seen exceed that basically since June of 2020, and about 35% of that is e-commerce, which is impressive when only 16% of retail sales is e-commerce right now. So e-commerce is pushing along, is pushing along retail sales. And realistically there's only, only it can only go up in terms of e-commerce. I want to be careful in saying that, because I know that's gotten people in trouble before. It can only go up in terms of e-commerce industrial is starting to become, starting to see a lot of construction. If you want to talk about the property type in particular, we're starting to see more speculative construction, but on the, at the, at the, at the other end of it, you can make the argument that it's pretty easy to turn off the industrial tap. If you it's just, you're building a big slab of concrete and yeah, exactly. It's a slab of concrete. Got you build a box and you're good to go. And there's a lot of reasons to believe that structural shifts from retail, from onsite retail to e-commerce means strong sales, and that's not even getting into three PLS and manufacturing tenants that we do also expect to do quite well. Amazon alone accounts was one, a hundred million square feet of absorption in 2020. And I, I don't know if they're going to do that again, but they are already, they're already in the, you know, they continue to be the player in the market and continue to push industrial. So do you think, Speaker 0 (17m 20s): Look at the, on the topic, the three PL or third, third party logistics and last mile delivery, like, do you, do you, do, do you break down industrial into these sub categories for your analysis? Speaker 1 (17m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you almost have to, right, because that's how, that's how tenants think about it. You have these big distribution centers and then you have these last miles and, you know, these last miles tend to be these, these crappy frankly buildings that are in well better located areas. And the great thing, if you're looking from an standpoint about these last miles, they're not usually the highest and best use. So there isn't a ton of new construction in the last mile, despite the huge amount of demand for the last mile, at least according to what we're seeing. Speaker 0 (18m 5s): So in terms of the, the actual investment sales side of the industrial coin, when, you know, we see in our market, which I think pre pandemic, we were at 2%, I know Toronto is, I know LA and Toronto you'd know better than I would, but I know that we were at the top and north America with the, in terms of how lower vacancy rates were and continue to be on the industrial side. And what we've seen on the investment sales side is there's only so much product that, you know, you've seen, oh my God, that thing's traded again, that's traded three times in the last year. Are you seeing that same stuff in these really hot markets where properties have, basically, I'm assuming it's a constraint on the, on supply right now. Speaker 1 (18m 45s): Yeah. I mean, I, you know, everybody is out for industrial and they're continuing to increase their allocation. It's it's, you know, when we talk to clients, it's the first thing they always say is don't worry, we're going to increase our allocation to industrial really? Usually at the cost of office and retail. Well, not usually, always at the cost. No. Yeah. It, it, you know, that's, that's the other side of the coin, right? Is we saw 6% rent growth so far in 2021, we can be concerned about construction and market specific. If you look at like, you know, inland empire, for example. Yeah. There's a lot of construction or, you know, Las Vegas, for example, there's a decent amount of construction, but at the same time, the amount of demand that we're seeing come in and given it's a structural shifts, it means that you could, you should expect continued demand. That being said, we're getting to a point where cap rates are going to struggle. Maybe a little bit to continue to decline. Speaker 0 (19m 45s): I was going to say, it's for reminds me like economics 1 0 1. We're like, no, that the shift it's the whole demand curve moving, not just going up along, right? Like there's a, there's an innovation here. There's, there's a structural shift to less retail and more, more industrial distribution. Speaker 1 (20m 0s): I was actually trying to the other day to think of a, a good comparison. And I think we landed on radio for retail retail's radio where it it's still gonna have a use, but it's not the same use that it used to have an industrials TV now, the television. Cool. That's the entertainment. Yeah. Speaker 0 (20m 22s): So where does, where does vaulty Rez line up with that? If we, if we go to multi Rez, which you have to think that, you know, prior to the pandemic, we were like, can cap rates keep going down? And then they kept going down. And even right now, buoyed by I'm sure interest rates are multi-res team. I think, did their, did their had a banner year for 2020, like a record year for them? Speaker 1 (20m 46s): Yeah, we we've hearing that a lot is that, you know, 20, 20 and now 2021 in particular, it's been a great year. 2021 saw the largest increase in rent we've ever seen quarters for Q3. So we just finished up two, three, we're still finalizing the results, but shaping up that Q2 Q3 and Q1 of 2021 are the top three years in terms of demand for multi-family. And it, you know, that's across the board. However, if you start breaking it down by markets, the south in particular is really, really very strong. I mean, I'm going to keep harping on myself just because it is as strong as it is, but you know, multi-family is price per unit has gone up by 30% compared to pre-recession averages in Sunbelt markets rents in, like, for example, Austin increased by 15%, six months, you get, you kind of become to begin to become worried more about affordability than anything else, which is at some point, this becomes a economic macro economic problem, which of course then comes back to haunt investors. You know, a lot of that gain has already happened and really have seen a deceleration, which you would expect given seasonal trends in multi-family. And, you know, in some of these markets, you really are beginning to hit the, the affordability limit. And that's where you can start making a great argument for like, for manufactured homes or for mobile home parks. For example, particularly in the south, the Southern states, they don't work as well in the Northern states. I would argue at least mobile home parks. Speaker 0 (22m 27s): Yeah. Neither up here. Speaker 1 (22m 30s): It gets a little chilly. I know, but it's, multi-family has done, has probably been the outperformer, which, you know, given all the news around how well single-family pricing has done is isn't that surprising. And if you, if you look at single family, a single family price growth compared to multi-family rent growth, single family price growth in almost every single market has grown faster. So it's not like your, your other options is getting any easier to, to afford. Speaker 0 (23m 8s): Yeah. And in terms of like your outlook on this, in terms of the actual properties themselves, like, are we finding that in these markets that there are underperforming assets that are now being utilized to their, to their, you know, market rents, you know, value, add deals. Do you think that is what's happening in a lot of these markets? Or do you think that the pressure of lower interest rates is, is what's fueling most of, most of the acquisition in, in multifamily being an asset class that's pretty much being subsidized or was subsidized for the last year, year and a half by the government in most in countries. Speaker 1 (23m 46s): Yeah. I mean, that's a huge part of it. And then on top of that, I think lower interest rates is extremely helpful for multi-family acquisitions. You know, part of it is it, some of it has to be just the inflation hedge that you'd get for multi-family. If, if you were to all concerned about inflation and you want to look in real estate multi-family is probably your best bet just given. And we can talk about this at some point, just given the short lease term is, but the, the eviction moratorium also, at least in our opinion, has had a pretty big effect on multifamily demand because on one end, you're, you know, you are seeing a huge spike in terms of demand, but then we kind of scratch our heads at it for a while. But then if you think about it, we weren't evicting anybody. There's 800,000 evictions in the U S per year. I don't know what it is for Canada. That's 800,000 units that aren't going, that aren't in negative demand. We aren't, we aren't building, you know, these, these class C units were, if we're building anything, it's, it's a class, a, a, that's the only thing you can really afford to build right now that will, that will pencil. So, you know, people are, people are basically sitting in their home, sitting on their apartments, they're unwilling to move. So we aren't seeing that, that negative demand. And on the other, the other side, we're seeing a huge uptick in people separating how tools, if you're, let's say you're a 22 year old kid and you you're living with four roommates, we're seeing people decouple those households and begin to move out into their own places. All of that kind of leads to these, this huge spike in, in multi-family. Speaker 0 (25m 36s): Yeah, I guess the real question, like you said before, it's, it's the affordability aspect you have, like you said, 30% increase, I think in evaluation, but 15% increase in rental rates. And there is, there is a certain level where, you know, you, you just hit a, you hit a wall in terms of affordability from the, from the consumer point of view. Speaker 1 (25m 56s): Yeah. I think it's, it's going to have, it was a concern even before the pandemic was, you know, a home affordability shelter affordability, and it certainly did not get better. Speaker 0 (26m 8s): And on the construction end, you, you, you mentioned class a, are you seen quite a bit of construction on the multi-family side? Generally, Speaker 1 (26m 14s): It's pretty, it's pretty much in line with the last couple of years, to be honest with you, which was pretty significant. But on the other end, we saw a huge amounts of construction delays even before the pandemic. And it, it kind of acted as this filter for, for supply being added, frankly, especially, especially down south where there's huge amounts of demand, there's huge amounts of supply waiting to be added. But at th at the same time, they just can't get it out. Whether it be supply costs, labor is certainly a problem. Anybody and anybody who's trying to build multi-family right now has told me that labor is almost impossible to find at this point. Yeah. Speaker 0 (26m 51s): I mean, just even on the small scale or we're doing projects in our area, it's, it is extremely slow. And, you know, you talk to anybody in the construction industry. They'll, they'll tell you the same thing right now. Not just supplies, but labor as well. If we shift over to, to that piece on inflation, it's been a hot topic in terms of ink spilled. I'm sure it was one of those things that, yeah, the over the last little while there's been enough fuss bulled over on, on the inflation side, what's your view from the data that you guys are seeing? Speaker 1 (27m 25s): Yeah. I, I take the view that I am in agreement with the bond market and the fed that it is transitory. I think the definition of transitory has been changing pretty significantly because at first I think it was six months and now it's probably going to be a little bit longer than that. Kind of where I begin to split a little bit from the fed at least, is that it's inflation is likely to be higher for longer. I don't think it's going to be quite as high as it has been. A lot of that. A lot of the reasons it's been high currently, it has a lot more to do with the pandemic and kind of short-term factors. You know, you can think about shortages and chips. You can think about shortages and car parts, for example, or appliances, as well as transportation demand, which should burn itself off and on top of the stimulus. But the fed changed how it does it targets inflation. And I think it really went under reported. I think a lot, it, it didn't really make as much noise as it should have because what they're essentially doing now is they're saying, okay, we need to make up for really chronically low inflation in the, the last cycle. So we're going to allow inflation to run hot, to get the labor market gains that we saw at the end of the last cycle. Because if you look at between 2018 and 2020, the federal site statistics around minority wage gains, for example, it didn't really begin to appear until the economy was basically at full employment. What that three, 3.5, 3.4% unemployment rate. They want to see that again, that's Jerome Powell has basically explicitly stated that that's what they're looking for. That being said, the fed has begun to sound a little bit more hawkish. Cause I think they, I know they were taken by surprise by the how high inflation got, and they're, they're likely going to raise rates by the end of next year. All of that said, I, I still believe the fed is willing to let inflation run above that 2% mark for the next couple of years. Speaker 0 (29m 30s): So for those that don't know what you're referring to in terms of the under-reporting is the fact that they've, they've broken off of the, the, what they used to be the 2% target, is that right? Speaker 1 (29m 40s): Yeah, I, yeah. I mean, I was in colleges, every continent was, you know, they target 2%, they adjust rates based off of that. That's obviously a little more complicated than that, but now they're targeting a longer term inflation average of 2%. And because inflation from 2010 to 2019 ran between, you know, according to their measure of inflation PC around between 1.5 and 1.8% for most of that, they view allowing it to run from two to 3% as making up for some of that loss, those loss pricing increases over the last cycle. Speaker 0 (30m 15s): So in terms of, from the investor perspective, if your outlook as to how that informs your decisions from a real estate point of view, you know, what does, what does that leave us with in terms of the discussion that we've had even today in terms of the different asset classes and how you view economic decisions and investment decisions? Speaker 1 (30m 35s): Yeah, I mean, look, inflation is here to stay at, which is actually fair, especially since it's not, you know, hyperinflation I, where the fed is going to be forced to raise rates quickly. Hopefully, you know, it's actually good news for real estate. Real estate is a real asset, you know, I'm sure, you know, everybody, every economist has said this at some point, you know, real estate is a real asset. It, it benefits from a real value gains and holding real value, which means that in an inflationary environment, commercial real estate itself is a good play within those property types. There are some that are better than others, especially if you're unsure of how stable and the inflation rate is going to be the shorter, the lease term, especially in a higher demand property types that, you know, you can think about industrial or especially multi-family, it means you can adjust your, your rent increases to match inflation. If you look at, and we've seen this actually in the market, if you look at NOI gains real NOI gains from Nate grieve since 1990, there was only two real periods of actual real NOI gains from the nineties to the, from early nineties to the late nineties and from 2010 to 2015. Other than that, if you deflate real and alive for multi-family, it's basically flat, which, which essentially means that NOI is just, is, is working as an inflation hedge. You get the same real return year after year. That that makes multi-family really attractive. Industrial actually has not done that well, based on that same measure up until very recently. Speaker 0 (32m 12s): Yeah. I liked the idea. I was always told by a mentor of mine there where, you know, real estate is one of those few industries investment that you can download inflation to your, to your customer, you know, pretty much one for one. Speaker 1 (32m 27s): Yeah, you can, it, it is extremely easy to just pass on that inflation to the investor, unlike pretty much any other asset class. I mean, if you think about bonds, for example, you can't do that for the most part. You just, you know, if you invest in a bond, you you're losing real value every, every coupon payment. Speaker 0 (32m 44s): Yeah. And I th and I think to your point earlier where you have those shorter terms with multifamily, it's obviously easier to do, but I was just reading a lease yesterday that was kind of the old school lease where the, it was over 10 years, but the, the bump ups, the step-ups and rent were basically the CP attached to a CPI inflator. So we haven't seen those as much, usually landlords, if anything, at least prior to the pandemic, they would just say, okay, it's, you know, 10 bucks a square foot now 12 bucks 14. And usually that would be more than inflation, but they have some mechanism in there. Speaker 1 (33m 17s): Yeah. Well, I was going to say, the other thing landlords might want to start thinking about is, is indexing it to inflation and that's, that's actually the great part. I mean, that's why we target a specific inflation rate is because then you can make these easy decisions. I know inflation is going to be 2%, it's a very stiff assumption. So, you know, we can, we can just assume a 2% going forward. Now you have to start thinking about, okay, is it, you know, is it going to go, you're making a bet. Is inflation going to be long-term? Is this higher inflation could be long-term or is it going to come back down? How much is it going to come back down? It's really difficult. And while it does sound really nice to indexed, to inflation, if you're an office, a landlord right now, I think you struggle a little bit because you don't have the negotiating power necessarily that you did two years ago. Speaker 0 (34m 5s): Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of, so in terms of that, how that view informs the interest rate discussion, the way that, you know, the fed will respond, if, you know, if employment is higher than, or full employment, or if changes in inflation that, that they're measuring, how, how do you see that impacting the interest rate decisions? Speaker 1 (34m 27s): Yeah, so I, I I'm, I think I'm in the minority here, at least in terms of the broader economics where I really don't see interest rates increasing significantly. And I know that's a really economist answer to touching it a little bit, but I don't see interest rates hedging or increasing significantly because one of what the feds, the fed said about how they're going to react to inflation, they said, they're willing to let inflation run hot. They care more about the labor market gains right now on that needs us more liquidity in the system for longer, which, you know, can go only a few places. It can, it can drive. And we have seen equity increase by multiples. And then the only other place we can go really is bonds for, you know, those multi-trillion dollar that multi-trillion dollar liquidity pool we have right now. I mean, it's at the point where the banks just basically don't know where to put the money. All of that, to me suggests a, you know, short, you know, lower interest rates on top of that. If you think about the demographic factors that are affecting the United States, you know, slower demographic growth going forward, that's not going to change. That's baked in effectively. Unless people begin to move here in a mass on top of technological change, you know, you would expect to see more automation going forward. I think it's coming faster than a lot of people like to acknowledge that pushes down prices, which then pushes down interest rates. And I know globalization is no longer it, maybe isn't moving forward as quickly or as moving forward at all. But globalization still means a lower interest rate environment. You know, the fed in 2018, tried to push interest rates to 2.5% and ran into huge liquidity problems in the market. There isn't there, they don't and they view, and this is their view. They don't view the neutral interest rate as much higher than rate where they're no longer stimulating nor creating drag on the economy is much higher than two or two and a half percent. So all of that, to me suggests maybe slightly higher interest rates from what was the tenure at. At one point I, you know, 50, 50 basis points, but maybe not, it's probably gonna be lower than it was before, before the pandemic. Speaker 0 (36m 45s): Would there be something that would change that view for you or, or a few factors that would change that view for you in terms of where interest rates could go? Cause, I mean, that's usually the big thing where a lot of people say, oh, if inflation is going in this direction, interest rates have to, you know, come up to that, you know, come up as a result of that. But yeah, what are, what are, what are some factors that may, may kind of give you pause to, to think it might go the other way or at least increase over what you're, what you're talking about? Speaker 1 (37m 13s): That's a great question. And, you know, as inflation has continued to stay high, it's been something I've been thinking more and more about, but the, you know, inflation first and foremost above all else, if inflation gets out of hand, it, it becomes a inflation spiral. That's when I think, you know, you'll begin to see interest rates really start to hike. The other, the other concern would be the fed. It depends on who Biden dominates next year for the fed. If we get someone who's hawkish, if we see you're going to see some more hawkish fed governors, I think that in a more hawkish fed chairman that could change my view on interest rates. And finally, we begin, we begin to S you know, removing chewy really begins to drain liquidity faster than I thought it would. No we're right now, we are still buying billions of dollars of bonds every month. I don't expect removing QV would do that, but that could drive interest rates higher if the, if the market begins to react to, or begins to become concerned about liquidity in the us, into global bond markets. Right. I, I sh I should mention real quick that also there are wars and pandemics that I can't predict. I learned that last year. Speaker 0 (38m 40s): Yeah. That was a, it was, I remember two, two or three years ago. And I won't say who the company was, but, you know, I remember it was couched almost as a joke, you know, barring any geopolitical disputes or a global pandemic. And I was like, oh my God. But yeah, those are always the things you're like, you know, there's these extra exogenous factors that you're not going to be able to, to forecast these black swans. So I guess the, you know, from the real estate perspective, that's a good overview of where we're at today in terms of the different asset classes. And we're, you know, the view of the economy is just want to be mindful of your time. Joseph, we have four questions. We ask everybody before we, we end the episode. So if you're okay with that, we'll kick it off. Speaker 1 (39m 25s): Absolutely. Speaker 0 (39m 26s): What's something, you know, now in your career, you wish you knew when you started. Speaker 1 (39m 32s): That's a great question that it's okay to be wrong and it's okay to make a mistake. I think I was, at least at the beginning of my career was a little more concerned about mistakes and being wrong. If you're, if you're an economist, if you work in economics, you know, if you work in real estate and you're trying to forecast trends, you're, you're going to be wrong and that's okay. It's just, just, don't be wrong. You just learn from the mistake. Don't make the same mistake twice, twice, I think is what I needed to learn as opposed to you have to be right the first time. Speaker 0 (40m 1s): Yeah. It's all always lies. I camera it was like Truman or something that said, ah, give me a one-handed economist. Everyone says on the, on one hand, on the other hand, but yeah. I Speaker 1 (40m 11s): Mean, I'm certainly, I'm certainly guilty of that Speaker 0 (40m 15s): While you want to be precise with your answers in terms of mentorship, what would you tell younger people coming into the industry or your views of mentorship in general? Speaker 1 (40m 25s): Oh, I would not be where I am without mentors. I think it's so important to talk to people who that are in a place that you want to be, or are doing things that you want to do. I've had some fantastic mentors for both in real estate and in, in economics before, before I worked in commercial real estate, I was working in banking regulation. I was thinking regulation research, I suppose I worked with some fantastic economists that taught me everything I knew, including, you know, my, my advisor in college. I, I, you know, like find someone that you think is worthwhile to talk to and then just bug them. I think I was my first job. I was in the chief economist office, every opportunity I could just asking questions, being curious, trying to learn as much as I could cause that, and it's, it's paid dividends for me. Speaker 0 (41m 25s): Awesome. Are there any recommendations you could give a book recommendations, podcasts, I guess, with the spirit of this conversation, maybe in real estate or economics? Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 34s): There's, that's not a good question. There's two, there's two, there's two that I, one that I love just for all time, which is thinking fast and slow by data economy, which, you know, I, I like to think that I don't necessarily subscribe to the, the basic, the, what a lot of mainstream economists think about in terms of models. I think there's more to it than that. And David Kahneman does a really good job of breaking down how people think and how that relates to economics. Fantastic book. It's a really interesting read, even if you're not an economist and the other one is the rise and fall of economic of us economic growth. I believe it's, I'm reading it right now. So I should know the name. Speaker 0 (42m 17s): Yeah. We'll put a link. I think I know the one, the one you're talking about, Speaker 1 (42m 23s): I, you know, the first economist I worked under was an economic historian. So he instilled that interest in me. And it basically shows that, you know, the century from 1870 to 1970 was a period of unbelievable technological change and economic growth. And I it's really fascinating and it informs a lot of what I think will happen going forward in terms of slower, you know, slower but steady economic growth. We're not going to see those four to 5% GDP gains without, you know, huge amounts of stimulus anymore. And it was good. Speaker 0 (42m 54s): Yeah. I have a, if it's Robert Gordon, is that a that's right? Yep. Okay. We'll put it. Speaker 1 (43m 0s): I think it's a fantastic book. I really like it. If you liked economics, I would suggest that it's. Speaker 0 (43m 6s): Yeah, no, it's, it's one of those things where I w was interested in reading, but unless you get like a recommendation, sometimes you go down a rabbit hole, but the Conaman that's I think, correct me if I'm wrong. I think Conaman was the first non economist to win the Nobel prize in economics. Speaker 1 (43m 23s): Yeah. He was a psychologist and I it's, it's a lot about how the brain thinks and makes decisions and you know, it really attacks that idea of rationality and really looks at why people actually make decisions. It's, it's a great book. It really changed how I thought about, you know, economic modeling and where I work, how we, how markets work. Speaker 0 (43m 45s): Very cool. We'll put a link to both last question. First car, make and model. Speaker 1 (43m 51s): Oh, I had a 2004, a Honda accord, which is it. And it was, it had a bigger engine than it was supposed to have, which was great because if you've ever driven in Massachusetts, all of the on-ramps are about five feet long, so you have to really gun it. And so that was a fantastic car. I missed that car still. I would rather drive that than when I'm driving now. Speaker 0 (44m 20s): Right on. I feel like a lot of engines were stuffed into those older Accords and civics, Joseph, for people to connect with you or a, you know, anything related to the information or data you do with CoStar work and they reach out, Speaker 1 (44m 34s): Yeah, we have a website, I'll send it to you for blankets, CoStar advisory. You know, you can always find me. I write a lot of articles for the website, so you'll see me on CoStar, if you have it, which I would suggest otherwise, you know, just I'm on LinkedIn. Speaker 0 (44m 54s): My guest today has been Joseph Biassi Joseph. Thanks for being part of working capital. Speaker 1 (44m 59s): Thank you for having me. Speaker 0 (45m 10s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.