Podcasts about Lenore Skenazy

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Michaeleen Doucleff and I talk about her new book Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child's Brain and Take You're your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods. Michaeleen's position is not that screens and ultra-processed food are “bad.” Rather, Michaeleen explains how they can take the place of things that truly bring us joy and pleasure, leaving us with an empty feeling of "what's next?" and an endless cycle of wanting. We focus on how dopamine has been misunderstood and how it actually works, how magnets like screens and ultraprocessed foods keep us stuck, and small changes you can make to start shifting things in your home.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? 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THANK YOU!We talk about:* 00:00 Introduction to Dopamine Kids and why our understanding of dopamine is outdated* 02:15 Michaeleen's journey from NPR science journalist to parenting author* 05:00 Dopamine isn't pleasure—it's wanting: the neuroscience that changes everything* 07:20 Why kids say they'd rather play with friends than be on screens* 08:00 The difference between dopamine, serotonin, and real satisfaction* 13:30 How apps and ultra-processed foods hijack the brain's reward system* 16:45 Why endless scrolling never feels satisfying* 18:30 “Bottomlessness”—one of the biggest design tricks keeping us hooked* 20:30 Why we want activities for our kids with a clear purpose and a clear endpoint* 22:00 The veggie straw experiment that changed Michaeleen's thinking about food* 26:50 Magnets and cues: how screens become automatic habits* 32:00 Why removing screens isn't enough—you have to replace them* 33:30 Helping kids meet their real need for adventure and autonomy* 36:00 Small, permanent changes vs. temporary screen detoxes* 37:30 Why the car is a great place to start reducing screens* 38:00 Is reducing screens really more work?* 40:15 Why laws and regulations haven't caught up with technology* 43:00 Why this isn't a willpower problem* 46:30 Can kids ever use screens in moderation?* 49:00 Paid video games vs. free games* 51:30 This isn't about screens being “bad”* 53:00 Helping kids gradually learn to use technology well* 54:00 School Chromebooks and why parents have more influence than they realize* 58:00 Advice Michaeleen would give her younger parenting self* 1:00:00 Why kids have to experience offline joy before they'll want it* 1:01:00 Sarah's client who removed the TV—and what happened next* 1:02:30 Final thoughts and where to find MichaeleenResources mentioned in this episode:* Michaeleen's website* Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child's Brain and Take You're your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods* How to Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis * The Peaceful Parenting MembershipConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the fall for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.Today's guest is journalist Michaeleen Doucleff. She is the author of the book Hunt, Gather, Parent and now has a new book out called Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child's Brain and Take Back Your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultra-Processed Food.Michaeleen's first book is one of our favorite parenting books, and now we can add this one to the list. She walks us through how screens and ultra-processed food hook us and keep our brains stuck in a hijacked wanting cycle without giving us actual rewards and pleasure.We eventually get around to discussing this, but I want to stress right here at the beginning that Michaeleen isn't saying that screens and ultra-processed food are evil or that they have no place in our lives. Rather, they can take the place of things that truly bring us joy and pleasure, leaving us with an empty feeling of “what's next?” and an endless cycle of wanting.I learned so much from this book. I'd been wanting to make some changes in my own life with my relationship with my phone, and this book helped me understand why it was so hard and what I could do. A hint: as it turns out, we don't understand dopamine correctly at all. Our cultural shorthand about what dopamine is and what role it plays in the motivation and pleasure cycle is totally outdated.If you're interested in making some positive shifts in your child's life, in your family, and in your own life, you're going to love this interview and Michaeleen's book.If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you're a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you're there, don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.If you'd like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show. We'll put a link in the show notes.Let's meet Michaeleen. I hope you enjoy this conversation and get as much out of her insights as I did.Sarah: Hi, Michaeleen. Welcome back to the podcast.Michaeleen: Thank you so much for having me.Sarah: When we had you on a few years ago to talk about your first parenting book, Hunt, Gather, Parent—we'll link to it in the show notes—it ended up being one of our favorite podcasts out of the 200-some episodes we've done. I'm so excited to have you back to talk about your new book.Michaeleen: Thank you so much. That's so nice. It's an honor to come back.Sarah: I'm so happy to have you. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.Michaeleen: I was—or I still am—a science journalist. I've been one now for about 16 years, and I spent 13 or 14 years as a radio correspondent at NPR. I'm still there covering children's health, global health, neuroscience, and psychology.Before that, I was trained as a chemist. I have a PhD in chemistry.Five years ago, I wrote the parenting book Hunt, Gather, Parent, and I had no idea I'd ever become a parenting expert. That definitely wasn't on my life bingo card.When I had my daughter Rosie almost 11 years ago, I had no clue what I was doing. It just seemed like an impossible task. Then I started studying parenting around the world, and I realized there was an easier way to do things. That's what Hunt, Gather, Parent is about.More recently, about six years ago, I was really trying to fix my own screen problem—my own addiction to my phone. I was so obsessed with it. As I investigated neuroscience, psychology, and behavioral psychology, I started to realize, “Oh gosh, we're really getting a lot of things wrong when it comes to screens and our kids.”That led me to write this next book, Dopamine Kids, to clarify a bunch of myths but also update the advice because it's really old. A lot of the advice out there is based on psychology from 20, 30, even 40 years ago.Sarah: Or even more.Michaeleen: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. And I'm going to ask you about that. So tell us, what's the central idea behind your new book, Dopamine Kids?Michaeleen: One of the biggest ideas is that we're thinking about screens wrong. We think they're these endless sources of pleasure. We think dopamine is this molecule that brings us pleasure and that the more we have, the happier we are.But that's really old neuroscience.What dopamine actually gives us is the feeling of desire, wanting, and craving. It makes us obsessed.So what screens are doing is cranking that system up. They're increasing motivation, craving, and wanting. But if you look at what happens over time, they actually rob us of pleasure and reduce the amount of pleasure we experience in our lives.So this idea that screens—video games and social media—are treats and rewards for kids is wrong. It's all wrong.What is actually most rewarding and pleasurable for kids are things in the real world because real-world experiences don't just give us desire and wanting. They also give us satisfaction, joy, and long-lasting pleasure.So Dopamine Kids is really a reset of what actually brings our kids pleasure in life. It also provides a toolset to retrain your kids' brains so they naturally want and reach for offline activities and foods that make them feel good—foods that really nourish them and bring satisfaction.It's about rethinking our idea of pleasure. What does pleasure actually look like?I think the media, marketing, and corporations have taught us that pleasure and wanting are basically the same thing—that we want things because they bring us pleasure.But if you actually look at the science and the data, there are so many things out there that drive our wanting while robbing us of pleasure.Social media is a really good example. Kids use it because they want a sense of belonging. They want to feel connected. But over the long run, social media does the opposite. It makes them feel lonelier, and yet they still want it.I see this book as an operating manual for shaping and changing your kids' habits into the ones you want for them as a parent, but also habits that nourish kids and bring joy, happiness, and pleasure to the whole family.We often think limiting screens is about depriving kids of pleasure.It's actually the opposite.It's about reclaiming pleasure.Sarah: I had Lenore Skenazy on the podcast. Do you know her work?Michaeleen: Yeah, we're friends.Sarah: She was on the podcast a few months ago, and she was talking about how, if you ask kids what they want—would they rather be on screens or play with their friends?—by far the number one answer is playing with their friends, not being on screens.Michaeleen: Yeah. I think it's almost double.Sarah: Exactly. And yet I don't think most parents realize that.Michaeleen: Right. I didn't realize that either. I think it's because we confuse begging, screaming, and tantruming for the screen with joy and pleasure.Sarah: Okay, so tell us about that, because what I learned from your book is that everyone thinks dopamine is, “Ah, I just got a hit of dopamine and I feel so good.”Michaeleen: Yeah.Sarah: But it's not dopamine that makes you feel good. It's serotonin and, I think, endorphins that make you feel good.You go into this in much more detail in the book, and I highly recommend it. It was excellent. I have to tell you, I was on an office hours call with my membership before I even knew you had written a new book, and one of my members said, “I'm reading this parenting book called Dopamine Kids, and it's a page-turner.”She said, “I've never had a parenting book that's a page-turner, but you've got to get your hands on this.”Then I looked it up and realized it was your book, and I was so excited to get it and read it.Can you explain the basic idea? I know it's too much detail to go into fully, but what's the difference? What does dopamine actually do, and why isn't it what we think it is?Michaeleen: For a long time—really since the 1950s—neuroscientists thought we do things over and over again because they're pleasurable.Neuroscientists have been obsessed with getting people and animals to press buttons for over a hundred years. Rats, mice, apes, pigeons—they've all been part of these experiments. It's almost like an iPad. Press, press, press, tap.For a long time, researchers could stimulate one region of the brain—the dopamine center—and the animals would go crazy pressing the button all day long. They wouldn't even stop to go to the bathroom. It makes you think of someone playing video games for hours. They're just obsessed with pressing the button.Researchers believed that because this was the dopamine center of the brain, dopamine made you press the button because it felt good and brought you pleasure. They even conducted similar experiments with people, and that very simple explanation stood for a long time.Then, about 30 years ago, a couple of scientists came along and asked, “Wait a second. Is this really true? Do we always act because something is pleasurable?”They designed better experiments, and what they found was astonishing. Dopamine doesn't do that at all.Dopamine makes us want.It makes you want something, and it makes you want to do something over and over again. It's like a “do it again” button in the brain.Do it again.Do it again.Whenever you can, do it again.The way the system is supposed to work is that first you want something, and dopamine motivates you to work for it. Then, when you get what you wanted, the pleasure center starts to light up.Those are different neurotransmitters. That's where endorphins—the body's natural opioids—and serotonin come in.Serotonin allows you to appreciate what you have. It's what lets you say, “Oh, I got what I wanted. I feel really good. Ah... I can stop now. I can take a break.”In many ways, pleasure is the opposite of dopamine because it gives you satisfaction, and satisfaction stops wanting.There are a couple of classic examples. One is sex, which is probably the R-rated version. But another is thirst.Imagine you're running on a hot day. You've run out of water, and after half an hour or an hour, you really want something to drink.That's dopamine. That's your dopamine hit—that strong feeling of desire.Wanting can actually feel good. If I fall in love and I want to be with my partner, the wanting feels good.But wanting can also become frustrating. If you want something for too long and don't get it, that feeling turns into frustration.So you're out running on this hot day thinking, “Oh my gosh, I want water so badly.”That's dopamine.That's not pleasure yet.Then you see a glass of water, or you get one and take a drink, and you think, “Ah, that feels so good.”That's the pleasure system.Sarah: That's where you get the serotonin and the endorphins.Michaeleen: Exactly. And the endocannabinoids too—the body's natural cannabinoids. A whole bunch of things kick in.The wonderful thing about this pleasure response is that it can last a long time. It lingers. It makes you feel optimistic and gives your life a kind of glow because you've gotten what you need to survive.I remember being really upset as a kid, and my mom would come over and hug me. I'd bury my face into her, and it felt so good. It was just this feeling that everything was okay again.That's what these pleasure molecules do.Dopamine is saying, “Everything is not okay. I need this before things can be okay.”They're very different.Sarah: Okay. This is the part I still feel like I'm only beginning to understand.How do the makers of apps and video games—and we've mostly been talking about screens, but you also write a lot about ultra-processed foods—how do they get us stuck in the dopamine cycle?What I took away from your book is that these things are so powerful because they keep us trapped in that cycle of wanting...Sarah: What I understood from your book is that these things are so powerful because they keep us stuck in the dopamine cycle. It's just wanting, wanting, wanting.You said something in the book about how they've figured out a way to hack a weakness in our brain circuitry. Forgive me if that's not the exact wording, but they've essentially hacked a weakness in the brain to keep us stuck in dopamine without ever giving us a real reward.How does that work?Michaeleen: First of all, both the tech industry and the food industry have admitted this for a long time. This isn't something I've come up with. They've openly admitted it. Even the food industry says, “We want to make something you can't stop eating.”Sarah: Right. You read all these interviews with industry insiders, and they're very open about it. Everybody knows they've admitted it. But how does it actually work?Michaeleen: There are a lot of tricks.Let's start with screens because a lot of these techniques actually came from the gambling industry. In the ‘80s and ‘90s, casinos started replacing mechanical slot machines and poker machines with video versions—basically gambling apps on giant touchscreens.They explicitly asked, “What can we do to this game to keep people playing for as long as possible?” Some people would play for 24 or even 48 hours straight. They ran massive A/B tests to figure out exactly how they could tweak the games to send people into this dopamine loop—this wanting loop—where people actually stopped wanting to win because winning took them out of the loop.So it's very empirical. They've simply tested what keeps people there.In the book, I describe it as a kind of recipe parents can use to recognize whether an app is doing this to their child. Psychologists even have a name for this state. It's called dark flow, where you lose track of time and where you are. We've all experienced it while scrolling social media. Twenty or thirty minutes go by and you think, “What just happened?” You're in this loop of wanting because, if you actually experienced pleasure and satisfaction, you would stop. You'd stop wanting.One of the biggest tricks is speed. The faster the cycle runs, the more it traps you. If you think about videos and video games, they've become faster and faster. Even children's iPad games are just question, answer, question, answer, question, answer over and over again. That's driving up dopamine.But where's the satisfaction? What's the reward? Basically, it's just a light on the screen.Another trick is promising something fundamental. The dopamine system evolved to help us fulfill our basic human needs—water, food, social support, adventure, creation. These are things we needed to survive, so kids are naturally highly motivated to pursue them.These apps promise they'll meet those needs. Social media, for example, promises belonging. It says, “Get on here and you'll finally feel connected. You'll finally feel like you belong.” The problem is that it never actually fulfills that promise.If you look at some of the leaked internal documents, you can see the algorithms intentionally withhold what people actually want. One neuroscientist explained it this way: they figure out what you're looking for and why you're on social media, then they give you something that's close to what you want. Maybe on the next click they give you something a little closer. Then a little closer.This does several things. First, you never actually receive the reward because you never get what you really need. Second, you develop this feeling of making progress—as though you're getting closer and closer. “Maybe one more comment. Maybe five more likes. Then I'll finally get it.”What most people don't realize is that we produce the most dopamine not when we get what we want, or even when we think we're about to get it, but when we feel like we're making progress.That's one of the biggest tricks.Video games are a perfect example. Kids always feel like they're making a little more progress. A little more. A little more. By the time they reach the next level, they're already making progress toward another one.There are all these different tricks designed to crank up wanting while dialing down satisfaction and pleasure because satisfaction is what gets you off the game. You think, “Okay, I'm done.”The same thing applies to social media. If social media actually gave me what I was looking for, I'd be finished. I'd think, “I got what I needed. I'm done.”But it never gives it to you.It can't.Sarah: I started feeling kind of gross about how much time I was spending on Instagram and Facebook—really just on my phone in general. I'd think, “Oh, I need a five-minute break,” and immediately pick up my phone.Actually, I did this before I started reading your book, but now I realize it fits perfectly with what you're talking about. I downloaded the New York Times Games app.Now, when I feel like I need a little break, I'll do Wordle or the Mini Crossword or Connections. What's nice is that it's limited. You get one crossword, one mini crossword, one Wordle, and one Connections each day.I'm almost never on Facebook or Instagram anymore because of it. It actually feels like a real reward. I finish the crossword and think, “Oh, I did the Mini in one minute and 38 seconds.”There's an ending to it. It really does feel like I accomplished something, which is very different.Michaeleen: Exactly. And you've actually stumbled onto one of the biggest tricks: bottomlessness.This is huge.TV didn't used to be bottomless.Michaeleen: TV didn't used to be bottomless. You had a handful of channels, and eventually the content ended or it got bad enough that you simply stopped watching.Now everything is endless. There's always another news story, another level in a game, another post, another video. That endlessness is what keeps us trapped in the cycle.You actually did so many things right with the New York Times Games app. You found something that takes a little more effort, but it also has a clear stopping point. You finish it, and then you're done. You created a bottom.That's exactly what I want to do with my own kids. I want to help them find activities that have a clear purpose and a clear ending. When you're done, you're done, and you turn it off.Compare that with scrolling Instagram for 30 minutes. What's the purpose? What are you actually doing? What are you looking for? There's always more content. It never ends, and it's incredibly fast.I think it's Chapter 4 of the book where I talk about figuring out how to use these technologies—if you're going to use them at all—in ways that don't manipulate you into these loops but instead feel genuinely satisfying.People often ask, “How do you know it's a real reward?” Your brain tells you. You feel better afterward than you did before. You feel done. You feel full. You think, “I'm ready to stop.”If, instead, you're thinking, “What's next? One more. One more,” then you're still stuck in the loop.For a lot of people—for a lot of kids, and certainly for me—that loop is frustrating and deeply unsatisfying. It just makes life feel gray and gloomy.Sarah: I noticed something a while ago. One of my favorite activities in the world is reading, and I realized I can't read if my phone is in the same room with me.When I was reading your book, I thought, “This is something I absolutely love doing, but it doesn't create that same dopamine loop.”Reading doesn't do that.I actually have to keep my phone in another room because reading takes more effort than scrolling Instagram.Michaeleen: Exactly. It takes more work, and that's part of why it's more satisfying.We're made to work. Human beings are actually very good at working, and that effort is part of what creates satisfaction. If something is too easy, it's much easier to get trapped in the wanting loop.Sarah: You also say in the book that, evolutionarily, our brains are designed to look for the easy way out.Back when life was hard, that made perfect sense.But now that everything comes to us so easily, it doesn't make sense anymore.Michaeleen: That's exactly right. These products are exploiting that tendency.Food is probably where you can see it most clearly.Our brains evolved to look for the foods with the most calories per bite. Why would you eat something with fewer calories per bite, especially when food was scarce? That's how we evolved.We also evolved to look for calories that our bodies could use quickly. A refined white-flour cracker gives you calories much faster than a carrot does. You'd have to eat carrots for much longer to get the same energy.Our brains are completely designed to choose the cracker.You'd never touch the carrot. It doesn't make evolutionary sense.That's especially true for kids, who are eating much more instinctively. But honestly, I'd argue that adults have the same problem. If the crackers are sitting there beside the carrots, most adults are going to have a hard time choosing the carrot.Sarah: Tell the story about the strawberries and the veggie straws.Michaeleen: This was when I really understood what was happening.Rosie was about eight years old, and we went to the pool with one of her friends. I packed raw edamame and strawberries. The girls were tired and hungry, and they were happily eating them. They were enjoying them.Then I pulled out a bag of veggie straws—which, by the way, aren't really veggies and aren't really straws. They're basically highly processed potato starch.Sarah: I think it's extruded potato starch.Michaeleen: You're right. Extruded potato starch.The starch is chemically extracted from the potato, so there's really nothing potato-like left except the starch. It's heated at a very high temperature, pushed through machinery, then sprayed with fat or basically fried and covered with salt.If you really look at the research, your body treats it almost like sugar. It practically dissolves in your mouth. There's almost no digestion required. It moves into your gut and into your bloodstream incredibly quickly.So even though the package says “veggie” and even though it says “potato,” what you're really getting are extremely fast calories, much like sugar.The moment I put those veggie straws on the table, those two girls ate the entire bag.One after another.You want to talk about dopamine?“Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again.”They didn't stop until every single veggie straw was gone.And then they completely forgot about the strawberries and the edamame.That was the moment I realized that if any ultra-processed food is available, kids simply won't choose the whole foods.Sarah: You asked Rosie afterward which she actually liked better, and she said, “Oh, the strawberries.”Michaeleen: Exactly. Even though she genuinely likes strawberries better—they taste better—her brain, and all of our brains, are designed to choose the veggie straws because they're such a dense source of fast calories.That realization led me to start doing little experiments. I'd make homemade meals with whole foods, then put one ultra-processed starch on the table—a dinner roll or some corn chips. I'd sit there and watch my husband and Rosie eat all of the ultra-processed food first. Then my husband might eat some of the whole foods, but Rosie wouldn't touch them.It wasn't her fault. It wasn't my fault. This is simply how our brains are designed. It makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective, and the food industry is explicitly taking advantage of that. If you look at the calorie density of ultra-processed foods, it's gone up and up over time. What really surprised me, though, is that it isn't just about sugar. Sugar clearly triggers dopamine—”Do it again. Do it again.” But highly refined potato starch, corn starch, and white flour are just as powerful, and in some studies they're actually more addictive than foods with added sugar.I recently read a study describing almost the exact recipe you mentioned: extruded starch that's fried or sprayed with a little fat and loaded with salt. That combination is incredibly addictive. The moment you see it, you want it, and then you eat it. The dopamine hit actually happens before you eat it. It's, “Oh, I see the bag. I want the bag.” That's the dopamine.Then there's almost no satisfaction or pleasure because satisfaction comes from protein and fiber—and, to a lesser extent, fat. Those are the things that make you feel, “Ah, I've had enough. I'm done.” Ultra-processed foods have stripped away almost everything that creates that feeling of satisfaction. That's what pleasure actually is.I really believe we can learn to tell the difference between wanting and genuine pleasure. Just like you did with the New York Times games, you replaced endless scrolling—which kept you wanting more—with something that actually makes you feel good every day.Sarah: Can you talk a little bit about what you call “magnets” and “cues”?I finished your book last week—it really was a page-turner—and I'm already putting some of your ideas into practice. One of the simplest suggestions was to stop carrying your phone around everywhere. I wore a watch to a baseball game the other night because I didn't want to keep taking out my phone just to check the time.Then this morning I went for a walk with my daughter and left my phone at home. When I got back, I made something to eat and did a couple of other things before I suddenly realized, “Oh—I left my phone upstairs for two hours.”Just the act of not taking it with me on the walk and leaving it in another room made it disappear from my mind. It was amazing.Michaeleen: I love that. That's beautiful.I call phones, video games, iPads, and ultra-processed foods magnets because neuroscientists actually use the term motivational magnets, and that's where I borrowed it from. They work through space, and they create what we call cues.Let's use screens instead of veggie straws. Imagine Rosie comes home every day after school and plays Toca Boca World on the iPad.Sarah: My daughter used to play those hairdressing games—and even vacuuming games. I never understood the appeal until I read your book and realized she was basically getting dopamine-mined.Michaeleen: Exactly. If you look at what keeps young children on those apps, it's the repetition. They're doing essentially the same thing over and over again, which is actually very unsatisfying.At first, what keeps Rosie playing are those little dopamine hits—”Do it again. Do it again.” But over time, something fascinating happens: the dopamine hit moves backward in time. Eventually, just seeing the iPad triggers dopamine. Simply seeing it creates desire and makes her really want it. Dopamine doesn't just make us want things—it motivates us to work to get them.So she sees the iPad, and suddenly she wants it. If it's sitting there, good luck getting her interested in anything else because her brain has already triggered that powerful feeling of, “I need this to survive.” She'll be pulled toward it like a magnet. That's where the term comes from. You don't just want it—you physically move toward it. You want to pick it up. You want to hold it. You want to touch it.Even if it's hidden away in a drawer or a closet, if she knows it's there, those magnets work through walls. She'll go looking for it.Sarah: Have you seen that study where students either had their phone on their desk, in their backpack, or in another room? Just having it in the backpack was almost as distracting as having it sitting on the desk.Michaeleen: That's exactly right, because they know it's accessible. Over time, these cues become so deeply wired into our brains that we don't even have to see the object anymore. We just have to know it's there.What's often triggering the habit isn't even the phone itself—it's an emotion. For example, when I'm writing and I get a little frustrated, that feeling becomes the cue: “Go check the news.” That used to be mine. Then it became, “Go check your email.” Now I've stopped checking the news, so mine has become, “Go check the weather.”Sarah: At least that can only last so long unless you're checking the weather around the world.Michaeleen: Exactly. It's much less sticky.But that's the point. If the phone is in the backpack, the brain knows it's available. These magnets work through walls. They work through bags. To really make those cues disappear, you have to do exactly what you did. You leave it at home. Your brain knows, “I can't get it. I'm not walking all the way back home for it,” so it lets go.As parents, we have to make these things completely disappear within a particular context. That's another really important piece of this: magnets and cues work in contexts.Every day after school is a context for Rosie's brain. Every day after school, in our house, she plays Toca Boca World. So when she walks into the living room at four o'clock, her brain already knows what time it is, even without a watch. Human brains are incredibly good at tracking those patterns.That context triggers dopamine. It triggers the desire for Toca Boca World.What we want to do instead is use that same context to trigger a desire for something that actually fills her up. Maybe after school in the living room becomes the cue for making art, riding her bike, or going outside.That's really what Dopamine Kids is about: using dopamine to get your kids excited about the real world and training their brains accordingly.Sarah: Can I back you up a little bit there? Because one thing you say in your book is that it doesn't work to simply take the screens away and say, “Let them be bored. They'll figure it out.”That's really the only other advice I've seen out there: just take the screens away and let kids be bored.But you did a lot of work to create opportunities for dopamine from other things. You didn't just tell Rosie, “No more Toca Boca World.”Can you talk about that? I think a lot of parents try the approach of saying, “Okay, we're just not doing screens anymore.” Then they end up with weeks—or maybe months—of crying and begging: “Can I just play a little?”Michaeleen: I think that approach can sometimes work with very little kids, but even then I don't think it lasts. These things are like weeds. The screens will come back unless you replace them with something else.Behavioral psychology is actually very clear on this. It's much easier to create a new habit than it is to break an old one. It's much easier to replace a behavior than simply remove it.For example, while I was writing Dopamine Kids, I decided I wanted to stop drinking as much. I had gotten into the habit of having a glass of wine every night, and I realized it just wasn't working for me anymore.I didn't simply take it away. I bought non-alcoholic beer. I replaced it with something.Kids are the same way.If you just take away the iPad—especially if they've been using it for a long time—their brain has come to believe it's something they need to survive. That's what these products have tricked the brain into believing. So when you take it away, it genuinely feels awful.But if you give them another activity that's exciting, interesting, and something they genuinely want to do, taking the screen away doesn't feel nearly as difficult. Over time, you can actually help them discover activities that make them feel even better than the iPad does.That's what creates a permanent habit instead of a temporary one.Behavioral psychology is pretty clear that kids are using these things because they're trying to meet a need.Rosie wasn't obsessed with Toca Boca World or cartoons because she wanted screens. She wanted adventure.Adventure is a fundamental human need for kids. You could also call it autonomy, but I like the word adventure because I think it's easier to understand. Kids need to explore, learn, and take little risks. They need that in order to feel good.I think a lot of kids are using screens to try to fill that need.So instead of simply taking screens away and leaving that need unmet, you have to backfill it.I said to Rosie, “Tonight we're not going to watch Netflix. We're going to take a break. Instead, we're going to do something you've been dying to do that I just haven't made time for yet. You're going to ride your bike to the market by yourself.”I would even say to her, “Instead of watching cartoon characters have adventures, you're going to have a real adventure yourself.”That's the difference.You're taking something that was trying—but ultimately failing—to meet a real human need and replacing it with something that actually does.When you do that, it's not nearly as hard.It goes back to what you mentioned earlier about kids saying they'd rather be with their friends than on screens. That same research also found that kids would rather be outside playing than watching screens. So you're giving them the opportunity to do the thing they actually want to do.That's really the process: figure out a replacement activity—or a replacement food—and then gradually begin taking the old thing away.The result is that your child isn't angry at you all the time. Your relationship is better because they have something wonderful replacing what they lost.More importantly, it creates a lasting habit because they're not simply complying with a rule. They're building a hobby, a skill, or a way of living that genuinely brings them pleasure and meets their needs.One of my biggest concerns with a lot of the screen advice that's out there is that it isn't permanent.Real change comes from making small but permanent changes.It's not, “We're doing a 30-day screen detox.”It's, “We don't use screens after dinner anymore,” or, “We don't use screens on Saturdays.”And that's just how our family does things now.That's how you train the brain.If you keep bringing the old habit back, you undo the learning and go right back to where you started.So I always encourage people to think small—but think permanent.Sarah: One suggestion you make is starting with something simple, like, “We don't do screens in the car.”Michaeleen: Yes.Sarah: I think that's such a great place to start. Your book is full of practical little ideas like that, so the whole thing doesn't feel overwhelming.We've been talking about some of the bigger concepts, but the book is incredibly practical.I'm working on a book myself right now, so I know how much work goes into something like this. I just want to say you did a really beautiful job balancing the theory with concrete things families can actually do.I really, really recommend it.Michaeleen: Thank you.The car is a great place to start because it's such a clear context for a child's brain.They get into the car and their brain thinks, “Screen time.”Instead, you can make the car mean, “Reading time,” or “Journaling time,” or even “Bored time.”It's a really useful place to begin because they're already somewhat contained, so it's easier to establish a new routine.Sarah: I love that.The one thing I want to ask about—and I hope you don't take this as criticism—is that some of what you've done takes a lot of time and energy privilege.Michaeleen: Yes. I think it's very similar to what I found with Hunt, Gather, Parent. There is some work up front, but I also think we dramatically underestimate how much work we're already doing when we rely on screens as babysitters or pacifiers.We tend to think that's the easy route, but even in the short term, I don't think it actually is.Sarah: That's a really good point because the fighting itself takes a lot of energy.Michaeleen: Exactly. That's ultimately what made me change and what made me want to write this book. I was just tired of arguing with Rosie about screens. I hated policing her.It's very similar to what I found with Hunt, Gather, Parent. Recently, one parent gave me some feedback that I actually thought was really insightful. She said, “I think you could have been clearer that having daily screen time—or unlimited screen time—is actually a lot of work.”And she's right.The parent is managing it every single day, moment by moment. There's constant fighting, negotiating, and policing.I'll tell you something else. Once we got ultra-processed foods out of our house, the amount of work I do around food dropped to about one-tenth of what it had been before. We actually spend less money because we're eating less.People don't realize that ultra-processed food makes you eat more. That's very well documented. Kids snack constantly when those foods are around. Rosie now eats two or three real meals a day when she's eating whole foods.So I'm actually doing much less work because those foods aren't in the house.I do agree there's some work at the beginning. Teaching Rosie to ride her bike to the market took time. But now she's 10, and she rides her bike everywhere. She bikes to piano lessons. She bikes all over town.That investment keeps paying dividends.Sarah: That's a really fair point.I had just been telling you before we started recording that, over the years, I've noticed more and more parents coming to coaching specifically because of challenges around screen time.The fights about screens, getting kids off screens—it has become such a common struggle.They just need to read your book and get some strategies.Michaeleen: I'm really just trying to encourage people that if they have that gut feeling—that sense of, “This just isn't working for our family”—it's okay to say no.There is a way to do it that doesn't require an enormous amount of ongoing work.Really, what you're doing is setting up the environment so the default becomes these other activities. You're designing things so you're not constantly policing or managing every moment.That's my biggest pushback against the idea that this approach is more work.It took a lot of work for me to figure all of this out and understand how it works—Sarah: And you did that for us.Michaeleen: Exactly.I also think the court system—and society more broadly—is slowly starting to catch up. The regulations around screen content are so far behind the technology.If you think about it, 20 years ago Rosie wouldn't have been able to walk into a movie like Jaws without a parent. There were very clear rules about what children could and couldn't see.Now I can hand her a device that gives her access to some of the most extreme content imaginable.One scientist told me that a child today can see, in about ten minutes, more pornography than our grandparents' generation would have encountered in an entire lifetime.Something is clearly out of balance.Either society has changed dramatically, or our regulations simply haven't kept pace.When you look at child exploitation, trafficking, and abuse online, it's obvious that regulation is behind.Sarah: Big Tech has so much money and so much influence that I think that's part of why the laws have fallen so far behind.Michaeleen: It absolutely is. But I also think there's this persistent myth that kids need these technologies and that they're doing so much good.One of my hopes for this book—and for the work many other researchers are doing—is that people will begin to understand that kids genuinely need help regulating this stuff.They cannot regulate it on their own.Right now, that entire burden falls on parents, and that's a tremendous amount of work.Sarah: We can't regulate it on our own, and we're grown-ups.Michaeleen: Exactly.When I first started researching this book, I interviewed a famous economist at Stanford—someone in his forties who will probably win a Nobel Prize someday. He spent our entire conversation telling me all the systems he had to build so he wouldn't look at the news while he was working.He had blocked it at the router. He'd blocked it on his computer. He'd blocked it in multiple other ways.I remember sitting there thinking, “If he has to do all of that, how is a thirteen-year-old supposed to do her homework?”That's one of the central messages of the book.This isn't about willpower.It's not about teaching kids to resist temptation through self-control.It's about teaching them to build environments where they aren't constantly tempted in the first place.That's exactly what you described earlier when you left your phone at home.You create spaces in your life where the temptation simply isn't there.That's the key to living a happier, healthier life—not relying on willpower, but learning to avoid unnecessary temptation and building habits that don't require you to fight yourself every day.Ironically, that's what ends up making life much easier.Sarah: That was another really interesting thing you talked about in your book—willpower.Michaeleen: One of the really interesting findings about willpower is that people with fewer bad habits don't actually have more willpower. They've simply arranged their lives so they're exposed to fewer temptations.Sarah: That's right. A great place to start might be something like what you did with food. You talked about not eating food on the go.Michaeleen: Exactly. No food on the go.Sarah: Baby steps.Michaeleen: Right. Or parents will tell me things like, “We don't have ultra-processed foods at breakfast.” Breakfast is actually an easy place to start. You have oatmeal. You have eggs. There are lots of simple whole-food options. So you make that one meal your starting point.That's really the idea. Start with something small.I think the same principle applies to parenting. Parenting actually becomes easier when the temptations simply aren't there. You're not constantly managing them.Sarah: When my kids were growing up—and thankfully they mostly missed all of this because my youngest is 19, so there wasn't Netflix and everything else that's available now—we had a simple family rule: no screens Monday through Thursday.Back then it was television, but they just knew that was how our family worked. If they asked, I'd simply say, “Remember, it's Wednesday. We'll watch TV on the weekend.”It was actually very easy.Michaeleen: Exactly. And that's the dopamine system at work.Their brains know what day of the week it is. We're remarkably good at keeping track of time and routines. They knew they were in your house, after school, and that there wasn't going to be TV.It's like a smoker on an airplane. Eventually the smoker's brain learns, “I'm on a plane. I can't smoke.” The craving relaxes because the brain understands the context.The same thing happens with family routines.In Israel, for example, many families observe a digital Sabbath where they unplug for a full 24 hours every week. Parents tell me their kids love it because they know that's the time they play board games, spend time outside, and do other things together.Their brains learn that weekly rhythm.Our brains naturally work this way, so we can use that tendency to make family life calmer and more peaceful.Honestly, one of my favorite outcomes is that when nine o'clock comes around, my daughter is calm and actually wants to go to bed. Whatever effort it took to establish those habits at the beginning has been completely worth it. It's peaceful now, and hopefully those routines will stay with her for years.Ironically, it was much harder for me to stop scrolling before bed than it was for her.Sarah: Do you think there's any place for moderation?For example, could Rosie ever pick up Toca Boca again and play it for a little while? Or is it more a case of, once it's gone, it's gone?Michaeleen: That's a really good question.I think there are a couple of ways to think about it.The first is simply asking whether a particular technology is worth it. Does Toca Boca actually give us something valuable enough that it's worth the possibility of bringing back arguments and struggles? Or is there something else that gives us the same benefit without those downsides?One of the goals of the book is to help parents start asking that question about technology in general: Is this actually worth it?The second question is whether your child can handle it.I use YouTube for work. I'll watch scientists explaining research, informational videos, or sometimes I'll listen to music. I also know all the tricks YouTube is playing on me, so I can use it pretty intentionally.But Rosie at ten years old?No way.YouTube is far too sophisticated for her to use purposefully.Maybe when she's sixteen, seventeen, or eighteen. Maybe fifteen. I don't know.But I'm not going to intentionally introduce it.If it becomes necessary because of school or something else, then we'll try it and see how she handles it. If she can use it well, maybe we'll continue. If she can't, then we won't.I think a lot of this is really about figuring out what your own child can handle.We don't give children alcohol or tobacco because they can't handle them. We don't give them pornography for the same reason.These technologies have entered our lives so quickly that we're all trying to answer entirely new questions.One of the most important things parents can watch is what happens afterward.How does your child behave? What's their mood like? Is it immediately, “One more. One more. One more”?If that's what's happening, then they're probably not ready for it.Sarah: Right. It's not restorative.This reminds me of a guest I had on the podcast a year or two ago. He was a former video game developer, and the episode was called How to Stop Fighting With Your Kid About Video Games.Sarah: This reminds me of something another guest said on the podcast, and I think it fits perfectly with what you're talking about.He was a former video game developer, and he said something I've never forgotten. He said, “If you're going to let your kids play video games, don't let them play anything that's free.”He said there are lots of amazing games that you actually buy because they're designed with a real story arc, real challenges, and an ending. As I was reading your book, I kept thinking about that because those paid games are designed to give you an actual reward at the end. You complete levels, you build skills, and then you finish.He wasn't talking about buying things inside free games. He meant games that you purchase outright. I remember my husband used to play The Legend of Zelda. It was a game you started and eventually finished.Michaeleen: I love that. There's so much I love about it because the business model is completely different.With free games, the longer you stay on them, the more money the company makes through advertising and in-game purchases. Their entire goal is to keep you there for as long as possible. They're holding the child inside that loop.But with purchased games, they actually want you to finish because then they hope you'll buy another game. It's almost like movies used to be. They wanted you to enjoy the experience, reach the end, and then come back for the next one.You're exactly right—they're designed to end.I think that's really beautiful advice because it highlights how much the business model shapes the experience.Sarah: That's what he said. In the free games, the commodity is your child's attention.Michaeleen: Exactly.Whereas with a purchased game, you're paying for an experience that has a beginning and an end.We've actually done something similar with movies and television. We got rid of all of our subscriptions, and honestly, we've saved a lot of money. Now, if we want to watch a movie, we buy it.We're much more intentional. We stop and ask ourselves, “Do we really want to watch this? Is it worth it?”Then, when the movie ends, we're done.I think that simple change does so much to keep you out of the wanting cycle we talked about earlier. Paying for something slows the whole process down. It makes you think about your choice, and the design itself is completely different. It's designed to leave you feeling satisfied—to let you say, “I finished it.”Sarah: It's an experience. It's an adventure. There's a reward.Michaeleen: Exactly. I love that idea. I wish I'd put it in the book. It's really good. Honestly, I didn't even realize there were that many games designed that way.Sarah: I'll send you his contact if you ever want to talk with him.I could honestly talk to you about this all day.I'm just trying to think if there's anything else I really wanted to ask, but I do want to highlight something for anyone who's still listening.This isn't a moral argument about screens or ultra-processed foods being “bad.” You make that very clear throughout the book.It's really about bringing more joy and fun back into your life because getting trapped in this cycle of wanting without ever feeling rewarded is making all of us kind of miserable.Michaeleen: That's exactly right.The first thing I hope parents take away is that this isn't their fault.This has happened incredibly quickly, and most of us don't even understand what we're up against. These products are intentionally designed by multibillion-dollar companies to capture and hold our children's attention. That's what we're competing with, and for a long time we simply haven't had the right tools.The second thing is that this isn't about taking everything away. That's a fantasy. It's not going to work.It's about figuring out what actually brings joy to you and your family, keeping those things, and letting go of the things that don't.We've also moved beyond the old idea that kids will somehow fall behind or be left out if they don't have all these technologies. There's so much evidence now showing that giving kids a phone or social media doesn't suddenly make them feel accepted or like they belong.In fact, it often does the opposite.So we can let go of that fear.Instead, we can ask, “What actually works for our family?” Then we can build the skills to get there and help our kids gradually adopt these technologies in healthy ways because they're going to be part of their lives.Almost everyone will eventually have a phone. Most kids will eventually use some form of social media, whether that's YouTube, Instagram, or whatever comes next.The question isn't whether they'll ever use it.The question is: When are they ready?And how do we help them use it in a way that still allows them to be productive?For me, that's one of the essential parenting skills of the twenty-first century: helping kids set up their environments—their computers, their workspaces, their routines—so they aren't constantly fighting temptation.Sarah: You also talk specifically about having kids work where a parent can see them because I think that's becoming a huge challenge now that so many students are issued Chromebooks at school.Sarah: You also mention having kids work where a parent can see them, because I think that's becoming a huge challenge now that so many students are issued Chromebooks at school.Everyone I've talked to—and maybe there are exceptions out there—says you can't put parental controls on school-issued devices. Kids need YouTube to watch something for school, and suddenly you've opened the door to all kinds of temptation.Every parent I know whose child has a school-issued Chromebook struggles with it.Michaeleen: Yes, and I think this is an area that's really in flux.From what I'm learning, parents are starting to push back—not only on schools issuing Chromebooks in the first place, but also on not being allowed to set them up in ways that remove things like YouTube. I think parents actually have more power than I realized.Some schools will work with families if parents speak up. You can go to the teacher or the principal and say, “This is what I want for my child's Chromebook. I don't want them to have access to YouTube,” or, “I want these restrictions in place.”Parents have more rights than I think most of us realize.I've talked with parents who are trying to get Chromebooks out of kindergarten through Grade 2 altogether. Others are asking for more limited internet access or different settings during school hours. There's really a whole spectrum of possibilities.I honestly think this is going to be one of the defining parenting issues of the next decade—the school-issued Chromebook, the school-issued iPad.For me, it just makes those screen-free gaps in the day even more important. If your child has spent the day doing schoolwork on a device, then after dinner becomes even more valuable as a screen-free time.You need a break. I need a break. We all need a break.Creating what I call sanctuaries becomes increasingly important as more of school moves onto screens. Kids need opportunities to move their bodies, relax their brains, and experience activities that are genuinely restorative.I also think there are resources available for parents who want more control over that digital space. It does take work, but as parents we sometimes hand over more authority to schools than we actually have to. We have more rights than we often realize.In fact, a lot of this is being challenged legally. There are lawsuits against school districts because some software has been given to children in ways that violate privacy protections and collect data improperly.So I think this whole area is changing, and I'm hopeful we'll eventually reach a place where, even if students are working on computers, they'll have better protections against unnecessary distractions.That's exactly how I work. I turn on an app blocker so I can't wander around the internet while I'm working. Otherwise, I'd be distracted constantly.I have a colleague who says she can't work for more than a couple of minutes before she finds herself checking something online.Sarah: I struggle with that too.It's getting easier the more I practice, but the pull—that feeling of wanting—is incredibly strong.Michaeleen: It really is. It's become a habit, and eventually you're barely even thinking about it.I remember when I first installed an app blocker. It felt so uncomfortable. I kept thinking, “But I want to check this. I want to check that.”Then it faded.It actually faded pretty quickly.Sarah: Thank you so much—not just for being here, but for writing this book. It's really remarkable.Even though I'm past the most active stage of parenting, I keep noticing the ideas from the book working their way into my own life.I have to tell you, the last couple of nights I've made brown rice instead of white rice because of something I read in the book. I love white rice, but I know I need more fiber. Honestly, once you start eating brown rice regularly, you hardly notice the difference.You've gotten me wearing a watch, eating brown rice, and leaving my phone at home when I take the dog for a walk.Michaeleen: I love that.It lets your brain relax because you're not constantly multitasking anymore.I have my watch on too. Rosie and I actually wear the same watch. To me, it's become a little symbol of this more digitally minimalist way of thinking.I was doing exactly the same thing—checking my phone every time I wanted to know the time. Eventually I thought, “Why am I using this little computer just to tell the time?”Sarah: Exactly.Well, thank you so much.Michaeleen: Thank you.Sarah: Before I let you go, I have one question that I ask every guest. It'll be interesting because I can compare your answer to what you said the last time you were on.If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Michaeleen: Which age?Sarah: Any age. Go back to brand-new-mom Michaeleen. What would you tell yourself?Michaeleen: I'll give you two answers.For the baby stage, I would tell myself, “Michaeleen, just carry her all the time. Put her in the carrier and carry her. Don't worry so much about putting her down.”She was so happy whenever I carried her, and that's how so many cultures do it. The baby is simply on someone's back or on their front while life goes on. I really wish I'd done more of that because I think it would have made both of our lives much easier.For the older years, I'd tell myself to stop worrying so much that taking away the screens was going to be hard.I built it up in my mind as this enormous thing. I thought, “It's going to be so difficult to take away Netflix at night. It's going to be so difficult to take away Toca Boca.”But it wasn't.It really wasn't.Our lives became so much easier afterward, and I wish I'd been able to see that ahead of time.Sarah: Well, how could you have known?What you were seeing was the outward expression of all that wanting—the crying, the begging, the desperation. It would be so easy to mistake that for, “I'm denying my child something that brings them enormous pleasure.”I think that's an important distinction for parents.Just because your child is crying and screaming that they want something doesn't actually mean that it's bringing them pleasure or that it's good for them.Michaeleen: Exactly.Someone said something to me that I think made it into the book. A child can desperately want to spend another hour playing a video game while actually getting very little pleasure—or no pleasure—from it.That's really where the trick is.That's the hijacking.I also think Lenore's work is right. Kids really do want the offline world.They just have to experience it first.I didn't fully appreciate this before, but you can't really want something until you've experienced the joy of it yourself. Maybe you can see someone else enjoying it, but to actually build that dopamine pathway, you have to get out there and feel it yourself.You have to think, “Oh, this is wonderful. I love this.”Then your brain starts wanting more of that.Sarah: I was thinking about one family I work with. They have five kids, they run their own business, and they're incredibly busy.Their five-year-old son was having constant meltdowns and aggression, so I suggested they start tracking what happened right before those moments.When they came back, they realized that about 90 percent of the incidents were connected to screens. He was trying to get one of his parents' phones. He was trying to grab the remote from his sisters. He wanted the TV turned on or wanted it to stay on.This was actually before I read your book, so I probably could have given them even better advice afterward.But I suggested they experiment with going screen-free for a while and see whether it changed the aggression.The next time I talked to them, the dad told me that, out of pure frustration, he'd picked up the television and put it out in the garage. He basically announced, “No more TV for the rest of the summer.”The following week, the mom started texting me pictures.“Here's the girls sleeping in a fort they built on the trampoline.”“Here's our five-year-old playing with his trucks.”Picture after picture.She said, “I think this is going to be the best summer ever without TV.”Michaeleen: I love that story.I really do.And it's easier.It's easier.All he did was move the TV into the garage.That's amazing.That's exactly the advice I'd give myself.Just do it. Trust your instincts. Do it.Sarah: Do it.Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast.As always, it's been such a pleasure talking with you, and you've written another wonderful book to add to the parenting canon.Michaeleen: Thank you so much for having me. It was truly a pleasure to come back.Sarah: Thanks so much.We'll put links to everything we talked about in the show notes, along with your website. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to this amazing episode with Lenore Skenazy, the wonderful author of a book I loved as a younger mom, Free Range Kids, and the President of Let Grow! One of my favorite topics is the anxious culture of overparenting, and we dive into how this impacts kids and ways to change and give our kids healthy levels of independence and freedom!Let Grow: https://letgrow.orgLenore on Instagram: @lenoreskenazy_freerangeJoin our men's coaching group! email info@bestlifebehavioralhealth.com to sign up and learn more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.bestlifebehavioralhealth.com/mens-coaching-group⁠⁠⁠My newest venture, including ALL BRAND NEW POSTS EVERY DAY: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/drpsychmom/posts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠To get over 220 more episodes, most recently FOUR Conversation Starters With Your Spouse!... subscribe here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/drpsychmomshow/subscribe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ For my secret Facebook group, the "best money I've ever spent" according to numerous members: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/groups/drpsychmom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠For coaching from DPM, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.drpsychmom.com/coaching/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠For therapy or coaching, contact us at info@bestlifebehavioralhealth.com or visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.bestlifebehavioralhealth.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

School is out! We ask parents to call in and share their summer plans, and speak with parenting author Lenore Skenazy about the concept of a "lazy summer."

As a mom of three boys, one of the questions I think about most is: how do we raise healthy, resilient kids in a world that feels increasingly complicated? In this special compilation episode, I'm revisiting some of my favorite conversations about parenting, emotional health, food, independence, and resilience. These discussions have shaped the way I approach motherhood and have given me practical tools that I come back to again and again. You'll hear from Dr. Lauren Hartman on helping kids develop a healthy relationship with food and their bodies, Devon Kuntzman on understanding toddler behavior and responding with connection instead of reaction, Lenore Skenazy on why independence is one of the greatest gifts we can give our children, and Nicole Runyon on setting boundaries that foster confidence, resilience, and emotional strength. No matter what stage of parenting you're in, I hope these conversations remind you that raising healthy kids isn't about perfection, it's about showing up with consistency, presence, and trust. → Leave Us A Voice Message!  Topics Discussed: → How can parents reduce childhood anxiety? → What are signs of resilient children? → How do you avoid parenting power struggles? → How do kids develop healthy self-esteem? → What creates emotional resilience in children? Sponsored By:  → Function | Check your health the way I do. Function provides 160+ lab tests for $1/day and member pricing on MRI and CT scans. Join at https://functionhealth.com/bewellbykelly and use code BEWELL25 for a $25 credit. → Be Well By Kelly Protein Powder & Essentials | Get $10 off your order with PODCAST10 at https://bewellbykelly.com. → Timeline | Timeline's clinically proven formula is now more accessible. Mitopure starts at $99, and listeners can get 20% off at: https://timeline.com/KELLY Timestamps:  → 00:00:00 - Introduction → 00:01:23 - Dr. Lauren Hartmen: Eating Disorder Warning Signs  → 00:05:05 - The Physical Signs  → 00:06:55 - Talking to your child → 00:10:01 - Eating Disorder Education   → 00:14:22 - No One's To Blame → 00:17:26 - Personal Backstory → 00:22:01 - Finding The Balance + Rabbit Study  → 00:26:37 - Devon Kuntzman: Toddler Brain 101  → 00:31:54 - Teaching Emotional Regulation  → 00:37:17 - Knowing The Plan  → 00:40:48 - Tantrums vs Meltdowns → 00:43:34 - Handling Tantrums  → 00:47:21 - Setting Boundaries  → 00:49:06 - Lenore Skenazy: Why I Let My 9-Year-Old Ride The Train Alone → 00:52:48 - Helicopter Parenting Fears → 00:58:52 - Stop “Worst Case” Thinking → 01:04:28 - Nicole Runyon: Middle School Mental Health → 01:08:12 - Building Independence → 01:10:59 - Development Milestones → 01:14:34 - Cultivating Bravery  → 01:17:30 - Teen Driving Tips → 01:20:21 - Holding Kids' Boundaries Further Listening:  → Teen Eating Disorders, Early Signs, + How Parents Can Help | Dr. Lauren Hartman → Toddler Tantrums, Boundaries + Raising Emotionally Safe Kids | Devon Kuntzman → Why Kids Are More Anxious Today and How to Fix It | Lenore Skenazy → How to Raise Resilient Kids in a Tech Obsessed World | Nicole Runyon Check Out Dr. Lauren: → Freeing Children and Young Adults From Shame, Skills, and Stigma (book) → Website → Instagram Check Out Devin:  → Instagram → Website → Transforming Toddlerhood (Book)  Check Out Lenore: → Let Grow Kids  → Website → X ( Twitter) → Instagram → YouTube → Free Range Kids (Book) Check Out Nicole: → Website → Free To Fly (Book) → Instagram Check Out Kelly: → Instagram → Youtube → Facebook

What if our teens are far more capable than our anxious culture lets us believe? (spoiler: they are) In this episode, I sit down with Lenore Skenazy to talk about raising independent, resilient teenagers in a world built on fear. We dig into why kids crave independence, how "worst-first thinking" keeps us stuck, and practical tools to help your teen practice real-world skills before they launch. If you're ready to trade control for trust, this conversation is for you. Guest Bio: Lenore Skenazy is a cultural critic, longtime New York–based journalist, and TED mainstage speaker who sparked a global conversation when she wrote about letting her nine-year-old ride the subway alone. She founded the Free-Range Kids movement and co-founded Let Grow, a nonprofit helping kids build confidence, resilience, and real-world skills through greater independence. Her work has been featured on CNN, the Today Show, and in The Atlantic. Find more info and show notes as: https://www.besproutable.com/podcasts/eps-659-free-range-teens-with-lenore-skenazy/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when we stop hovering and start trusting our kids a little more? In this episode of the Mindful Mama Podcast, Hunter talks with Lenore Skenazy — president of Let Grow and author of Free-Range Kids — about why childhood independence is becoming one of the most important parenting conversations of our time. After a media firestorm erupted when she allowed her 9-year-old son to ride the subway alone, Lenore became a leading voice advocating for kids' freedom, resilience, and confidence. Together, Hunter and Lenore unpack the cultural fear driving overprotective parenting, the rise in childhood anxiety, and the growing movement to normalize age-appropriate independence again. They explore how programs like The Let Grow Experience help families break the worry cycle, why “reasonable childhood independence” laws are spreading across the country, and how small acts of freedom can transform both kids and parents. This conversation is hopeful, practical, and deeply empowering for any parent wondering how to raise capable, confident kids in a fear-filled culture. In This Episode, You'll Learn Why childhood independence is directly connected to confidence and mental health How overprotection can unintentionally increase anxiety in children What “reasonable childhood independence” laws actually protect Why today's world is statistically safer than many parents think How the Let Grow movement helps families break the fear cycle Age-appropriate ways to start building independence Why small risks are essential for resilience and growth How parents themselves often change through the process of letting go About Lenore Skenazy Lenore Skenazy is the president of Let Grow, a nonprofit promoting childhood independence and resilience. After becoming known as “America's Worst Mom” for letting her 9-year-old ride the NYC subway alone, she wrote Free-Range Kids and became a national voice for childhood freedom and reasonable risk-taking. Resources Mentioned Let Grow Website The Let Grow Experience (Schools Program) Four Weeks to a Let Grow Kid Lenore's TED Talk (2025) Key Takeaways Independence is not neglect — it's preparation for adulthood. Kids build confidence by doing hard things without constant intervention. Anxiety often shrinks when competence grows. Parents' fears are understandable, but many are culturally amplified rather than statistically grounded. Children need chances to solve problems, make mistakes, and experience responsibility. Small moments of independence can transform family dynamics. ABOUT HUNTER CLARKE-FIELDS: Hunter Clarke-Fields is the host Mindful Parenting Podcast (Top 0.5% podcast ), global speaker, number 1 bestselling author of “Raising Good Humans” and “Raising Good Humans Every Day,” Mindfulness Meditation teacher and creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training. Find more podcasts, Hunter's books, blog posts, free resources, and more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠MindfulMamaMentor.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Discover your Unique-To-You Podcast Playlist at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠mindfulmamamentor.com/quiz/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠/mindfulmamamentor.com/mindful-mama-podcast-sponsors/⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kids and teens are experiencing less independence than in the past — whether due to screen time, parents' fears of letting them roam freely, or other factors. It's a problem. But why? And what can be done? In this episode, host Dr. Delaney Ruston discusses this important topic with journalist Lenore Skenazy, who was labeled "America's Worst Mom" after letting her 9-year-old take the New York City subway home alone. Skenazy has spent years sounding the alarm on the harms of decreased youth autonomy, including co-founding Let Grow with psychologists Jonathan Haidt and Peter Gray. This episode explores the factors contributing to decreased independence and offers tools for parents and schools to combat this trend. It also examines the role of technology and tracking devices in this context, addressing both their benefits and potential pitfalls. This episode is intended for adult and teen audiences.   Featured Expert Lenore Skenazy   Books Free Range Kids by Lenore Skenazy   Research References Mott Poll Report: Promoting children's Independence: What parents say vs do Media violence, physical aggression, and relational aggression in school age children: a short-term longitudinal study. (Aggressive Behavior)    Additional Resources Lenore Skenazy's blog LetGrow.Org   Time Code 00:00 Introduction 00:20 The Decline of Children's Autonomy 01:02 Challenges in Encouraging Independence 01:22 Parental Concerns and Media Influence 02:00 Exploring Solutions with Lenore Skenazy 02:39 Lenore's Controversial Parenting Decision 08:21 The Birth of Free Range Kids Movement 10:07 Statistics and Parental Fears 18:05 Let Grow Initiative and School Programs 22:34 Technology's Role in Children's Independence 32:44 Conclusion and Resources

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you'll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.

Lenore Skenazy, author of Free-Range Kids, has been sounding the alarm for years: in our effort to protect our children, we may actually be holding them back.In this conversation, we dive into what's happened to childhood over the past few decades, why independence is declining, why parents feel more pressure than ever to supervise and structure everything, and what it's costing our kids.From helicopter parenting and “bulldozer” parenting to overscheduled calendars and screen heavy childhoods, we unpack how modern parenting norms may be limiting the very skills our kids need to thrive.This episode isn't about judgment. It's about perspective, and practical ways to raise capable, confident, independent kids in a culture that often pushes the opposite.In this episode, we discuss:The message behind Free-Range Kids and why it still matters todayThe essential skills children need to grow into independent, resilient adultsWhy modern parenting culture often discourages independenceThe downsides of helicopter parenting and bulldozer parentingHow overprotection can increase anxiety in childrenWhy mixed-age play and community matter more than we realizeWhether kids actually prefer structured activities, screens, or unstructured playThe power of giving kids real responsibilityWhat the Let Grow movement is and how it helps families foster independenceIf you've ever wondered whether you're hovering too much… or worried that giving your child more freedom feels risky in today's world… this episode will challenge and encourage you in the best way.Raising independent kids doesn't mean being uninvolved. It means gradually stepping back so they can step forward.----------------------------------------------------------------------------IMPORTANT LINKS•✨ Join our Mom Club on Patreon HERE ✨

Whether it's micromanaging playtime, constantly hovering or incessantly texting, the adult takeover of childhood has created a crisis of anxiety in both children and parents. In this episode, Lenore Skenazy, cofounder and president Let Grow, an organization dedicated to normalizing childhood independence, lays out the unexpected benefits of letting our kids be a bit more “free range.” Then psychologist Mathilde H Ross makes the case on why parents should trust their instinct instead of chasing trends.Talks FeaturedWhy you should spend less time with your kids - Lenore SkenazyIs parenting advice leading to more anxious kids? - Mathilde H. RossLearn more about our flagship conference happening this April at attend.ted.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Katie Kimball of Raising Healthy Families. We discussed getting kids in the kitchen and getting them to love cooking, raising teenagers and why they are wonderful, managing screens at different ages, and what kind of skills kids need to become independent, well-rounded and self-sufficient once they leave our homes.Make sure to check out Katie's course Teens Cook Real Food! **If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!We talk about:* [00:00] Introduction to the episode and guest Katie Kimball; overview of topics (cooking, teens, life skills, screens)* [00:01] Katie's background: former teacher, mom of four, and how her work evolved into teaching kids and teens to cook* [00:04] Why the teen years are actually great; what teens need developmentally (agency and autonomy)* [00:08] Beneficial risk and safe failure; how building competence early reduces anxiety later* [00:10] Getting kids into cooking: start small, build confidence, and let them cook food they enjoy* [00:16] Cooking as a life skill: budgeting, independence, and preparing for adulthood* [00:21] Screen time: focusing on quality (consumptive vs. creative vs. social) instead of just limits* [00:25] Practical screen strategies used in Katie's family* [00:28] Motivating teens to cook: future-casting and real-life relevance (first apartment, food costs)* [00:33] Teens Cook Real Food course: what it teaches and why Katie created it* [00:37] Fun foods teens love making (pizza, tacos)* [00:39] Where to find Katie and closing reflectionsResources mentioned in this episode:* Teens Cook Real Food Course https://raisinghealthyfamilies.com/PeacefulParenting* Evelyn & Bobbie bras: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/bra* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto* The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership* How to Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis: Episode 201 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/how-to-stop-fighting-about-video-games-with-scott-novis-episode-201/Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/* Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup* YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194* Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com* Join us on Substack: https://substack.com/@sarahrosensweet* Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.phpxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team-click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO: YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREEvelyn & Bobbie bras: If underwires make you want to rip your bra off by noon, Evelyn & Bobbie is for you. These bras are wire-free, ultra-soft, and seriously supportive—designed to hold you comfortably all day without pinching, poking, or constant adjusting. Check them out HEREPodcast Transcript:Sarah: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today's guest is Katie Kimball of Raising Healthy Families. She has been helping parents feed their kids and, more recently—in the past few years—teach their kids to cook. We had a great conversation about getting kids in the kitchen and getting them to love cooking, and also about raising teenagers and what kind of skills kids need to become independent. We also talked about screens, because any parent of a teenager who also supports other parents—I want to hear about what they do with getting kids to be less screen-focused and screen-dependent.Katie had some great tips in all of these areas, including cooking, feeding our families, and screens. In some ways, we're just talking about how do we raise kids who are independent, well-rounded, and have the skills they need to live independently—and those things all come into play.I hope that you really enjoy this conversation with Katie as much as I did. Let's meet Katie.Hi, Katie. Welcome to the podcast.Katie: Thank you so much, Sarah. I'm honored to talk to your audience.Sarah: I'm so excited to talk to you about teenagers, raising teenagers, life skills, screens—there are so many things to dive into. You seem like a very multifaceted person with all these different interests. Tell us about who you are and what you do.Katie: I do have a little bit of a squirrel brain, so I'm constantly doing something new in business. That means I can talk about a lot of things. I've been at the parenting game for 20 years and in the online business world for 17. I'm a teacher by trade and a teacher by heart, but I only taught in the classroom for about two years before I had my kids. I thought, “I can't do both really, really well,” so I chose the family, left the classroom, and came home.But my brain was always in teacher mode. As I was navigating the path and the journey of, “How do I feed these tiny humans?”—where every bite counts so much—I was really walking that real-food journey and spending a lot of time at the cutting board. My brain was always going, “How can I help other moms make this path easier?” I made so many mistakes. I burned so much food. There's so much tension around how you balance your budget with your time, with the nutrition, and with all the conflicting information that's flying at us.So I felt like I wanted to stand in the middle of that chaos and tell moms, “Listen, there's some stuff you can do that does it all—things that are healthy, save time, and save money.” That's kind of where I started teaching online.Then I shifted to kids' cooking. For the last 10 years, I've been sort of the kids' cooking cheerleader of the world, trying to get all kids in the kitchen and building confidence. It's really been a journey since then. My kids currently are 20, 17, 14, and 11, so I'm in the thick of it.Sarah: We have a very similar origin story: former teacher, then mom, and a brain that doesn't want to stop working. I went with parent coaching, and you went with helping parents with food and cooking, so that's exciting.I can tell from what I've learned about you offline that you love teenagers—and I love teenagers too. We have people in the audience who have teenagers and also people who have littler kids. I think the people with littler kids are like, “I don't want my kids to grow up. I've heard such bad things about teenagers.” What do you want people to know about teenagers? What are some things that you've learned as the mom of younger kids and then teens?Katie: It's such a devastating myth, Sarah, that teens are going to be the awful part of your parenting career—the time you're not supposed to look forward to, the time you have to slog through, and it's going to be so difficult.It's all difficult, right? Don't let anyone tell you parenting's easy—they're lying. But it's so worth it, and it's so great. I love parenting teens. I love conversing with them at such a much higher level than talking to my 11-year-old, and I love watching what they can do. You see those glimpses of what they'll be like when they're a dad, or when they're running around an office, or managing people. It's incredible to be so close. It's like the graduation of parenting. It's exciting.That's what I would want to tell parents of kids younger than teens: look forward to it.I do think there are some things you can do to prepare for adolescence and to make it smoother for everyone. I like to talk about what teens need. We want to parent from a place of what teens developmentally need, and they really need agency and autonomy at that stage. They're developmentally wired to be pushing away—to be starting to make the break with their adults, with that generation that we are in. Sometimes that's really painful as the grown-up. It almost feels like they're trying to hurt us, but what they're really doing is trying to push us away so it doesn't hurt them so badly when they know they need to leave.As parents, it helps to sit with the knowledge that this is not personal. They do not hate me. They're attempting to figure out how to sever this relationship. So what can we do to allow them to do that so they don't have to use a knife? If we can allow them to walk far enough away from us and still be a safe haven they can come home to, the relationship doesn't have to be severed. It just gets more distant and longer apart.When they want independence and autonomy, we need to make sure we give it to them. My tip for parents of younger kids is that, especially around ages 8, 10, 11—depending on maturity level—where can we start providing some agency? My team will say, “Katie, don't say agency. It sounds like you're talking about the FBI or some government letters.” But it's the best word, because agency isn't just choices—it's choices plus control, plus competence to be able to make change in your own life, in your own environment.We can't have agency unless we give our kids skills to actually be able to do something. The choice between “Do you want the red cup or the blue cup?” is for toddlers. That's not going to be enough once they're in the stage where their mind is growing and they can critically think. We want to give our kids skills, responsibilities, choices, and some ownership over their lives. That starts in upper elementary school, and it gets bigger and bigger.Sarah: I would argue it starts even earlier. Toddlers can make the red cup or blue cup choice, and as they keep going, you can give them more and more agency.One of my favorite parenting people, Alfie Kohn, says that kids should have the power to make decisions that make us gulp a little bit.Katie: Oh, I love that.Sarah: I think that's true. We come up against our own anxiety too: What if they make the wrong decision? But it's incremental, so the decisions become bigger and bigger as they get older. That's how they practice being able to make good decisions—through experience.Katie: We know statistically that anxiety right now is spiking massively that first year out of high school—where young adults are heading into the world, either to university or for a first job. One theory—one I would get behind—is that everything of adulthood, all the responsibilities, are crashing on their shoulders at once, and they haven't experienced that level of responsibility. Sometimes they haven't had opportunities to fail safely, and they don't know what to do.Sometimes we think we're pushing problems out of their way and that it's helpful, but we're really creating bigger problems down the road. So with that long-term perspective, I love that “gulp.” We've got to let them try and fail and hold back.Sarah: Do you know Lenore Skenazy, who started the Free Range Kids movement? She has a TED Talk that came out recently where she talks about how she attributes the rise in anxiety to the fact that kids never have any unwatched time by adults. They never have room and space to figure out their own way to make things work. Of course, I don't think anyone's saying we should inappropriately not supervise our kids, but they need more freedom. If they don't have freedom to figure things out on their own, that's where the anxiety comes in.Katie: For sure. When Lenore and I have interacted, she likes to call it “beneficial risk.” Climbing the tree is the classic example, but because I love to get kids and teens in the kitchen, we got to talk about the beneficial risk of using sharp knives and playing with fire—literally returning to our ancestral roots.The way I see it, and the way I've seen it played out in my own home: I taught my now 20-year-old to use a chef's knife at age 10. He built competency. He took risks. He discovered how he wanted to navigate in the kitchen. So when he was 15 and getting his driver's permit, I felt pretty peaceful. I thought, “He's so mature. I've seen him make good decisions. He's practiced taking beneficial risks.”I felt confident handing him the driver's license. When it came time for him to get a cell phone—first a kid-safe phone and then a fully unlocked smartphone—I felt like we had been building up to it because of our work in the kitchen. I think he did better than his peers with taking appropriate risks driving a car and having a smartphone in his pocket, because he'd had practice.Sarah: And that was in the kitchen for your family.Katie: Yes.Sarah: Cooking is one of my special interests. I love to cook. My kids love baking. They were never that interested in cooking, although they all can cook and they do cook for themselves. My 21-year-old who has his own apartment has started sending me pictures of the food that he makes. He made some baked chicken thighs with mushrooms the other day, and a green salad. He sent me a picture and I said to my daughter, “Do you want to see a picture of Asa's chicken?” And she said, “Asa got a chicken?” She was picturing it running around. We all laughed so hard because I wouldn't put it past him, honestly.When my kids were younger, they weren't that interested. Maybe I could have gotten them more interested in the cooking part, but I always felt like that was my thing. What tips do you have—for any ages—about how to get kids interested and involved? You said your son was using a chef's knife at age 10. What are some ways to involve kids and get them interested in that skill?Katie: Knives are a great start because they're scary and they're fun—especially for guys. You get to use something dangerous. My second son, John, asked to learn to use a chef's knife, so he learned to use a sharp paring knife at age four and asked to level up to a chef's knife at age seven.For parents of kids who are still in that intrinsic motivation phase—“I want to help”—the good news is you don't have to try. You just have to say yes. You just have to figure out what can my brain handle letting this little person do in the kitchen. If it's “I'm going to teach them to measure a teaspoon of salt,” then do it. Don't let cooking feel like this big to-do list item. It's just one teaspoon of salt.Can I teach them to crack an egg? Can I teach them to flip a pancake? Think of it as one little skill at a time. That's what cooking is: building blocks. If it's something like measuring, you don't have to have them in your elbow room. You can send them to the table; they can have a little spill bowl. Then you can build their motivation by complimenting the meal: “This meal tastes perfect. I think it's the oregano—who measured the oregano?” That's how we treat little ones.The medium-sized ones are a little tougher, and teens are tougher yet. For the medium-sized ones, the best way to get them involved is to create a chance for authentic praise that comes from outside the family—meaning it's not you or your co-parent; it's some other adult. If you're going to a party or a potluck, or you're having people over, figure out how to get that kid involved in one recipe. Then you say to the other adults, “Guess who made the guacamole?” That was our thing—our kids always made the guac when they were little. And other adults say, “What? Paul made the guacamole? That's amazing. This is awesome.” The 10-year-old sees that and blooms with pride. It makes them more excited to come back in the kitchen, feel more of that, and build more competency.Sarah: I love that. That's an invitation, and then it makes them want to do more because it feels good. We talk about that in peaceful parenting too: a nice invitation and then it becomes a prosocial behavior you want to do more of.I started cooking because I wanted to make food that I liked. I'm old enough that I took Home Ec in middle school, and it was my favorite class. I think about my Home Ec teacher, Mrs. Flanagan, my whole adult life because I learned more from her that I still use than from any other teacher. I remember figuring out how to make deep-fried egg rolls in grade seven because I loved egg rolls. You couldn't just buy frozen egg rolls then. So I think food that kids like can be a good way in. Is that something you find too?Katie: One hundred percent. If you're cooking things they don't like, you get the pushback: “Mom, I don't like…” So it's like, “Okay, I would love to eat your meal. What do you want to eat?” And it's not, “Tell me what you want and I'll cook it.” If you meal plan, you get to make all the choices.My kids have been interviewed, and people often ask, “What's your favorite thing about knowing how to cook?” My kids have gotten pretty good at saying, “We get to cook what we like.” It's super motivating.Sarah: When I was growing up, my sister and I each had to make dinner one night a week starting when I was in grade five and she was in grade three. We could make anything we wanted, including boxed Kraft Dinner. I can't remember what else we made at that young age, but it was definitely, “You are cooking dinner, and you get to make whatever you want.”Katie: Why didn't you do that with your own kids, out of curiosity?Sarah: It just seemed like it would take too much organization. I think we tried it a couple times. Organization is not my strong suit. Often dinner at our house—there were lots of nights where people had cereal or eggs or different things for dinner. I love to cook, but I like to cook when the urge hits me and I have a recipe I want to try. I'm not seven nights a week making a lovely dinner.Also, dinner was often quite late at my house because things always take longer than I think. I'd start at six, thinking it would take an hour, and it would be 8:30 by the time dinner was ready. I remember one night my middle son was pouring himself cereal at 6:30. I said, “Why are you having cereal? Dinner's almost ready.” He said, “Mom, it's only 6:30.” He expected it later—that's the time normal people eat dinner.My kids have a lot of freedom, but nobody was particularly interested in cooking. And, to be honest, it felt a bit too early as a responsibility when my sister and I had to do it. Even though I'm glad now that I had those early experiences, it was wanting to make egg rolls that made me into a cook more than being assigned dinner in grade five.Katie: That push and pull of how we were parented and how we apply it now is so hard.Sarah: Yes.Katie: I'm thinking of an encouraging story from one of the families who's done our brand-new Teens Cook Real Food. The mom said it was kind of wild: here they were cooking all this real food and it felt intensive. Over the years she'd slid more into buying processed foods, and through the class, watching her teens go through it, she realized, “Oh my gosh, it's actually not as hard as I remember. I have to coach myself.” They shifted into cooking with more real ingredients, and it wasn't that hard—especially doing it together.Sarah: It's not that hard. And you hear in the news that people are eating a lot of fast food and processed food. I'm not anti-fast food or processed food, but you don't want that to be the only thing you're eating. It's actually really easy to cook some chicken and rice and broccoli, but you have to know how. That's why it's so sad Home Ec has gone by the wayside. And honestly, a whole chicken, some rice, and broccoli is going to be way cheaper than McDonald's for a family of four. Cooking like that is cheaper, not very hard, and healthier than eating a lot of fast food or processed food.Katie: Conversations in the kitchen and learning to cook—it's kind of the gateway life skill, because you end up with conversations about finances and budgeting and communication and thinking of others. So many life skills open up because you're cooking.You just brought up food budget—that could be a great half-hour conversation with a 16- or 17-year-old: “You won't have infinite money in a couple years when you move out. You'll have to think about where you spend that money.” It's powerful for kids to start thinking about what it will be like in their first apartment and how they'll spend their time and money.Sarah: My oldest son is a musician, and he's really rubbing his pennies together. He told me he makes a lot of soups and stews. He'll make one and live off it for a couple days. He doesn't follow a recipe—he makes it up. That's great, because you can have a pretty budget-friendly grocery shop.I also don't want to diss anyone who's trying to keep it all together and, for them, stopping by McDonald's is the only viable option at this moment. No judgment if you're listening and can't imagine having the capacity to cook chicken and rice and broccoli. Maybe someday, or maybe one day a week on the weekend, if you have more time and energy.Katie: The way I explain it to teens is that learning to cook and having the skills gives you freedom and choices. If you don't have the skills at all, you're shackled by convenience foods or fast food or DoorDash. But if you at least have the skills, you have many more choices. Teens want agency, autonomy, and freedom, so I speak that into their lives. Ideally, the younger you build the skills, the more time you have to practice, gain experience, and get better.There's no way your older son could have been making up soups out of his head the first month he ever touched chicken—maybe he's a musician, so maybe he could apply the blues scale to cooking quickly—but most people can't.Sarah: As we're speaking, I'm reflecting that my kids probably did get a lot of cooking instruction because we were together all the time. They would watch me and they'd do the standing on a chair and cutting things and stirring things. It just wasn't super organized.That's why I'm so glad you have courses that can help people learn how to teach their children or have their kids learn on their own.I promised we would talk about screens. I'm really curious. It sounds like your kids have a lot of life skills and pretty full lives. Something I get asked all the time is: with teens and screens, how do you avoid “my kid is on their phone or video games for six or seven hours a day”? What did you do in your family, and what thoughts might help other people?Katie: Absolutely. Parenting is always hard. It's an ongoing battle. I think I'm staying on the right side of the numbers, if there are numbers. I feel like I'm launching kids into the world who aren't addicted to their phones. That's a score, and it's tough because I work on screens. I'm telling parents, “Buy products to put your kids on screen,” so it's like, “Wait.”I don't look at screens as a dichotomy of good or bad, but as: how do we talk to our kids about the quality of their time on screens?Back in 2020, when the world shut down, my oldest, Paul, was a freshman. His freshman year got cut short. He went weeks with zero contact with friends, and he fell into a ton of YouTube time and some video games. We thought, “This is an unprecedented time, but we can't let bad habits completely take over.”We sat down with him and said, “Listen, there are different kinds of screen time.” We qualified them as consumptive—everything is coming out of the screen at you—creative—you're making something—and communicative—you're socializing with other people.We asked him what ways he uses screens. We made a chart on a piece of paper and had him categorize his screen time. Then we asked what he thought he wanted his percentage of screen time to be in those areas—without evaluating his actual time yet. He assigned those times, and then we had him pay attention to what reality was. Reality was 90 to 95% consumptive. It was an amazing lightbulb moment. He realized that to be an agent of his own screen time, he had to make intentional choices.He started playing video games with a buddy through the headphones. That change completely changed his demeanor. That was a tough time.So that's the basis of our conversation: what kind of screen time are you having?For my 11-year-old, he still has minute limits: he sets a timer and stops himself. But if he's playing a game with someone, he gets double the time. That's a quantitative way to show him it's more valuable to be with someone than by yourself on a screen. A pretty simple rule.We'll also say things like, “People over screens.” If a buddy comes over and you're playing a video game, your friend is at the door.That's also what I talk to parents about with our classes: this isn't fully consumptive screen time. We highly edit things. We try to keep it engaging and fun so they're on for a set number of minutes and then off, getting their fingers dirty and getting into the real world. We keep their brains and hands engaged beyond the screen. The only way I can get a chef into your home is through the screen—or you pay a thousand dollars.We can see our screen time as really high quality if we make the right choices. It's got to be roundabout 10, 11, 12: pulling kids into the conversation about how we think about this time.Sarah: I love that. It sounds like you were giving your kids tools to look at their own screen time and how they felt about it, rather than you coming from on high and saying, “That's enough. Get off.”Katie: Trying.Sarah: I approach it similarly, though not as organized. I did have limits for my daughter. My sons were older when screens became ubiquitous. For my daughter, we had a two-hour limit on her phone that didn't include texting or anything social—just Instagram, YouTube, that kind of stuff. I think she appreciated it because she recognized it's hard to turn it off.We would also talk about, “What else are you doing today?” Have you gone outside? Have you moved your body? Have you done any reading? All the other things. And how much screen time do you think is reasonable? Variety is a favorite word around here.Katie: Yes. So much so my 11-year-old will come to me and say, “I've played outside, I've read a book, my homework is done. Can I have some screen time?” He already knows what I'm going to ask. “Yes, Mom, I've had variety.” Then: “Okay, set a timer for 30 minutes.”I have a 14-year-old freshman right now. He does not own a phone.Sarah: Oh, wow. I love that.Katie: In modern America, he knows the pathway to get a phone—and he doesn't want one.Sarah: That's great. I hope we see that more and more. I worry about how much kids are on screens and how much less they're talking to each other and doing things.I had a guest on my podcast who's a retired video game developer. His thing is how to not fight with your kid about video games. One thing he recommends is—even more than playing online with someone else—get them in the same room together. Then they can play more. He has different time rules if you're playing in person with kids in your living room than if you're playing alone or playing online with someone else.Katie: Nice. Totally. My story was from COVID times.Sarah: Yes, that wasn't an option then. Someone I heard say the other day: “Can we just live in some unprecedented times, please?”Katie: Yes, please.Sarah: You mentioned the intrinsic motivation of somebody admiring their guacamole. What are your tips for kids—especially teens—who think they're too busy or just super uninterested in cooking?Katie: Teens are a tough species. Motivation is a dance. I really encourage parents to participate in future casting. Once they're about 15, they're old enough. Academically, they're being future-casted all the time: “What are you going to be when you grow up?” They're choosing courses based on university paths. But we need to future-cast about real life too.Ask your 15-year-old: “Have you ever thought about what it'll be like to be in your first apartment?” Maybe they haven't. That helps reduce that first-year-out-of-home anxiety—to have imagined it. Then they might realize they have gaps. “Would you be interested in making sure you can cook some basic stuff for those first years? When you're cooking at home, it's my money you waste if you screw up.” That can be motivating. “I'm here to help.”Sometimes it comes down to a dictate from above, which is not my favorite. Your sister and you were asked to cook at third and fifth grade. I agree that might be a little young for being assigned a full meal. We start around 12 in our house. But by high school, there's really no reason—other than busy schedules. If they're in a sport or extracurricular daily, that can be rough. So what could they do? Could they make a Sunday brunch? We come home from church every Sunday and my daughter—she's 17, grade 12—she's faster than I am now. She'll have the eggs and sausage pretty much done. I'm like, “I'm going to go change out of my church clothes. Thanks.”If we're creative, there's always some time and space. We have to eat three times a day. Sometimes it might be: “You're old enough. It's important as a member of this household to contribute. I'm willing to work with you on really busy weeks, but from now on, you need to cook on Saturday nights.” I don't think that has to be a massive power struggle—especially with the future casting conversation. If you can get them to have a tiny bit of motivation—tiny bit of thinking of, “Why do I need this?”—and the idea of “If I cook, I get to make what I want,” and the budget.Sarah: The budget too: if you're living in your own apartment, how much do you think rent is? How much do you think you can eat for? It's way more expensive to order out or get fast food than to cook your own food.Katie: I feel so proud as a fellow mom of your son, Asa, for making soups and stuff. In Teens Cook Real Food, we teach how to make homemade bone broth by taking the carcass of a chicken. It's a very traditional skill. On camera, I asked the girls who did it with me to help me figure out what their dollar-per-hour pay rate was for making that, compared to an equal quality you buy in the store. Bone broth at the quality we can make is very expensive—like $5 a cup.They did the math and their hourly pay was over $70 an hour to make that bone broth. Then they have gallons of bone broth, and I call it the snowball effect: you have all this broth and you're like, “I guess I'll make soup.” Soup tends to be huge batches, you can freeze it, and it snowballs into many homemade, inexpensive, nourishing meals.Sarah: I love that. You've mentioned your course a couple times—Teens Cook Real Food. I'm picturing that as your kids grew up, your teaching audience grew up too. Were there other reasons you wanted to teach teens how to cook?Katie: Yes. We've had our kids' cooking class for 10 years now. It just had its 10th birthday. The most often requested topic that's not included in the kids' class is meal planning and grocery shopping. It wasn't something I felt like an eight-year-old needed.For 10 years I had that seed of, “How can I incorporate those important skills of meal planning and grocery shopping?” Then my teens got older, and I thought, “I've told parents of teens that our kids' cooking class will work for them, but it's not enough. It wasn't sufficient.”It was so exciting to put this course together. Even just the thinking—the number of index cards I had on the floor with topics trying to figure out what a young adult needs in their first apartment, how to connect the skills, and how to make it engaging.We ended up with eight teens I hired from my local community—some with cooking experience, some with literally none. We had on-camera accidents and everything. But they learned to cook in my kitchen, and it's all recorded for your teens to learn from.Sarah: I love that. What are some of the recipes that you teach in the course?Katie: We have over 35. We spent a whole day with a chef. He started talking about flavor and how seasonings work, and he taught us the mother sauces—like a basic white sauce, both gluten-free and dairy-free, a couple ways to do that, and a basic red sauce, and a couple ways to do that.My favorite cheeky segment title is “How to Boil Water.” We have a bunch of videos on how to boil water—meaning you can make pasta, rice, oatmeal, hard-boiled eggs, boiled potatoes. There's a lot of stuff that goes in water.Then we built on that with “How to Eat Your Vegetables.” We teach sautéing, steaming, and roasting. The first big recipe they learn is a basic sheet pan dinner. We use pre-cooked sausage and vegetables of your choice, seasonings of your choice. It's one of those meals where you're like, “I don't need a recipe. I can just make this up and put it in the oven.”Then, to go with pasta and red sauce, we teach homemade meatballs. We get them at the grill for steak and chicken and burgers. Of course we do French fries in a couple different ways.Choice is a huge element of this course. If we teach something, we probably teach it in two or three or four different ways, so teens can adapt to preferences, food sensitivities, and anything like that.We use the Instant Pot a lot in our “How to Eat Your Protein” segment. We do a pork roast and a beef roast and a whole chicken, and that broth I talked about, and we make a couple different soups with that.Sarah: You almost make me feel like I haven't had lunch yet.Katie: I'm starving, actually.Sarah: I'm quite an adventurous eater and cook, but I'm going to ask you about my two favorite foods—because they're like a child's favorite foods, but my favorite foods are pizza and tacos. Do you do anything with pizza and tacos in your course?Katie: We do both pizza and tacos.Sarah: Good!Katie: Our chef taught us, with that homemade red sauce, to make homemade dough. He said, “I think we should teach them how to make a homemade brick oven and throw the pizzas into the oven.” Throwing means sliding the pizza off a pizza peel onto bricks in your oven. I was like, “We're going to make such a mess,” but they did it. It's awesome.Then we tested it at home: can you just make this in a normal pizza pan? Yes, you can—don't worry. You don't have to buy bricks, but you can. Again, there are different ways.Sarah: I think teenagers would love making pizza on bricks in the oven. For us we're like, “That seems like so much work.” But teenagers are enthusiastic and creative and they have so much energy. They're wonderful human beings. I can see how the brick oven pizza would be a great challenge for them.Katie: It's so fun. My kids, Paul and John—20 and 14—they've both done it at home. As adults we're like, “It's such a mess,” but we're boring people. Teenagers are not boring. So yes—definitely pizza.Sarah: That's awesome. We'll link to your course in the show notes. Before we let you go, where's the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do?Katie: Definitely: raisinghealthyfamilies.com/peacefulparenting. We're going to make sure there's always something about teens at that link—whether it's a free preview of the course or a parenting workshop from me. There will always be something exciting for parents there.Sarah: Amazing. It's been such a pleasure. I thought maybe I didn't do all this stuff, but considering how both of my sons who are independent cook for themselves all the time, I think I must have done okay—even if it was just by osmosis.Katie: That's the great thing about keeping your kids near you. That was your peaceful parenting: they were in the kitchen and they were there, as opposed to you booting them out of the kitchen. There are lots of ways.Sarah: My daughter is an incredible baker. She makes the best chocolate chip cookies. I have this recipe for muffin-tin donuts that are amazing, and she's a really great baker. She can find her way around a quesadilla, eggs, and ramen for herself. I think once she moves out, if she doesn't have mom's cooking anymore, she'll probably also be able to cook.Katie: Yes. And so many parents need that bridge. They're like, “My kids love to make cookies. They bake, but they won't shift to cooking.” I would hope that future-casting conversation could be a good bridge.Sarah: Yeah. You can't live on cookies—or you might think you can for a little while, but then you'd start to feel gross.Katie: Exactly.Sarah: Thanks a lot, Katie.Katie: Thank you so much, Sarah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

When a nine-year-old rides the subway alone, is that neglect or normal childhood? Lenore Skenazy, a speaker, writer, and reality show host who was once dubbed "America's worst mom," makes the case for why kids need more independence and shares tactics for how parents can give it to them in the modern city or suburb. ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES Local Recommendations: Lety's Bakery Let Grow (site) Free Range Kids (site) See more from Lenore: “Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride the Subway Alone” (article)‍ Free Independence Kit‍ Lenore's TedTalk‍ Tiffany Owens Reed (Instagram) Do you know someone who would make for a great Bottom-Up Revolution guest? Let us know here!   This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Click here to learn more about membership.

When Lenore Skenazy let her nine-year-old use the New York Subway on his own, she was dubbed ‘America's Worst Mom'. In our age of safetyism, children are expected to be supervised, monitored and coddled at all times – not left alone to explore the outside world. No generation has ever been so sheltered. And nor has any generation felt so anxious and depressed. Here, Lenore Skenazy – president of Let Grow – makes the case for free-range parenting, for letting kids have some independence from their parents, and toning down the panic over ‘stranger danger'. Read spiked: https://www.spiked-online.com/     Support spiked: https://www.spiked-online.com/support/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ever wonder if all the hovering, scheduling, and “keeping kids safe” is actually making them more anxious? In this episode, I sit down with Lenore Skenazy, founder of Let Grow and author of Free Range Kids, to explore how giving kids independence, freedom, and trust can help them thrive.We cover Free Play Fridays, friendship clubs, and simple everyday strategies to build competence, confidence, and that all-important internal locus of control. Lenore shares real stories, expert insights, and practical tips that you can start using today to help your children become capable, confident, and joyful…all while easing your own parental stress.→ Leave Us A Voice Message! Topics Discussed:→ How can giving kids independence reduce childhood anxiety?→ What is the Let Grow approach to free-range parenting?→ How do Free Play Fridays and friendship clubs help kids thrive?→ Why is the internal locus of control so important for children?→ How can parents build confidence without hovering or over-scheduling?Sponsored By: → Be Well By Kelly Protein Powder & Essentials | Get $10 off your order with PODCAST10 at https://bewellbykelly.com.→ AG1 | Head to https://drinkag1.com/bewell to get a FREE Welcome Kit with the flavor of your choice that includes a 30 day supply of AGZ and a FREE frother.→ Function | Own your health for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join using my link. Visit https://www.functionhealth.com/bewellbykelly and use gift code BEWELL100 for a $25 credit toward your membership.→ Maui Nui | The Reserve Holiday Roast is available now through Maui Nui Venison. Get yours at https://mauinuivenison.com/kelly→ Kosterina | Use code KELLY for 15% OFF your first order at kosterina.com/bewell Not sure where to start? Shop all my Kosterina favorites at https://kosterina.com/bewellTimestamps: → 00:00:00 - Introduction→ 00:05:40 - Why I Let My 9-Year-Old Ride The Train Alone→ 00:10:52 - Helicopter Parenting Fears→ 00:18:52 - Stop “Worst Case” Thinking→ 00:24:51 - Community & Social Norms→ 00:35:18 - What 5-Year-Olds Can Do→ 00:40:21 - Social Media & Parenting→ 00:45:07 - Let Grow Parenting Tips→ 00:48:56 - Parenting Today→ 00:52:19 - Yale Museum Study→ 00:55:21 - Kids & Anxiety→ 01:02:01 - Joy of IndependenceCheck Out:→ Let Grow Kids → https://www.freerangekids.com/→ X ( Twitter)→ Instagram→ YouTube→

As parents, we're told homicidal maniacs, drug peddlers, and creeps are lurking in every shadow, waiting to grab your children. But is that true? Is our obsession with keeping our kids safe doing more harm than good? Today on Lever Time, David Sirota investigates the difference between good parenting and overparenting — and the political history behind our fear that kidnappers are roaming the streets. David enlists the help of author and advocate Lenore Skenazy, a champion for “free-range parenting,” who was once labeled the World's Worst Mom when she let her child ride the New York City subway alone.  Want to hear more? As an exclusive bonus to our paid subscribers, click here for David's full conversation with Lenore Skenazy. Lenore explains how to protect kids on social media, how she developed her parenting philosophy, and so much more. Not yet a paid subscriber? Click here for a special membership offer exclusive to Lever Time listeners. Click here for a full transcript of the episode. To leave a tip for The Lever, click here. It helps us do this kind of independent journalism. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ever wonder if we're raising our kids with too much fear and not enough freedom? In this episode, I'm joined by Lenore Skenazy—founder of Let Grow, author, and self-described “America's Worst Mom”—to dig into what's really holding our kids back. We talk about the shift from play-based to phone-based childhoods, and how we, as parents and educators, can reverse course by letting kids take back some independence—without feeling like we're putting them in danger.We explore how anxiety, both in kids and adults, is often fueled by overprotection, and how letting kids do more on their own actually builds emotional resilience, executive function, and confidence. Lenore shares powerful stories, smart strategies, and even a few laughs to help us rethink how we support our kids in becoming more capable and self-reliant. If you've ever worried about being too overprotective—or just want to help kids thrive—this conversation will inspire you to take that first step. Episode Highlights: [0:00] - Opening thoughts on parenting struggles and intro to my new workbook [1:35] - Welcoming Lenore Skenazy and how she became known as “America's Worst Mom” [3:54] - The column that sparked a national conversation [5:17] - The disconnect between our childhoods and how we raise our kids now [7:53] - How school policies and culture reinforce parental anxiety [8:50] - The myth of stranger danger and why statistics don't ease fears [11:52] - The Let Grow Experience and how it rewires parent and child behavior [15:06] - Why emotional courage is essential for both kids and parents [17:59] - The anxious generation of parents—and how overprotection feeds the cycle [19:43] - What free play really teaches and how it rewires the brain [24:11] - Why sandbags belong in play clubs and other fun discoveries [27:29] - Real-world problem solving in play: Franklin and the leaf pile [30:41] - Why squabbling is not a problem—it's the learning process [31:07] - The hero's journey and how hardship builds emotional resilience [33:34] - A flat tire becomes a triumph of independence [34:04] - Phones out, yes—but we must also restore play [35:15] - Let Grow's mission to support independence and responsibility [38:59] - Helping parents take courageous actions, even if they're still worried [41:36] - The goal isn't to eliminate worry—it's to act with courage anywayLinks & Resources: Lenore's TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/lenore_skenazy_why_you_should_spend_less_time_with_your_kids?subtitle=en  If this episode has helped you, remember to rate, follow, and share the Self-Driven Child Podcast. Your support helps us reach more people and create more content that makes a difference.If you have a high school aged student and would like to talk about putting a tutoring or college plan together, reach out to Ned's company, PrepMatters at www.prepmatters.com

For Shop Talk, we bring you fascinating data and wisdom from the righteous troublemakers known as Jonathan Haidt, Lenore Skenazy, and Zach Rausch. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We’ve been told that “good” parents never take their eyes off their kids — but what if that’s the very thing making childhood (and parenting) harder? In this fascinating chat, Dr Justin Coulson sits down with Lenore Skenazy — New York Times bestselling author of Free Range Kids and co-founder of Let Grow — whose viral act of letting her 9-year-old ride the NYC subway alone sparked a global movement. Fresh from her TED Talk, Why You Should Spend Less Time With Your Kids, Lenore dismantles the “terrible lie” that children can’t handle life on their own — and reveals why the best learning, confidence, and resilience often happen when parents step back. KEY POINTS The fear-driven parenting trap — and how media and culture made “unsupervised” a dirty word. The myth of “better safe than sorry” and why it’s hurting our kids. How independence builds competence (and true confidence). What happens in a child’s brain when they solve problems without adult help. The staggering truth about “stranger danger” and why it’s wildly overblown. How to make it normal again to just open the door and let kids play. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “Independence leads to competence — and competence leads to confidence.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Lenore Skenazy’s TED Talk: Why You Should Spend Less Time With Your Kids Free Range Kids by Lenore Skenazy— New York Times bestseller Let Grow nonprofit: letgrow.org Range by David Epstein ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS Open the door. Let your child play or walk somewhere safely on their own. Resist the rescue. When your child faces a small problem, pause before stepping in. Swap “be safe” for “trust yourself.” Let your language build courage, not fear. Talk about freedom. Ask your kids what independence means to them — and listen. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Send us a textToday on Your Child Is Normal, I'm thrilled to re-air one of our most important conversations with Lenore Skenazy — author of Free‑Range Kids and president of the nonprofit Let Grow, which is leading a national movement to restore childhood independence.Lenore explains why when we trust kids to do more on their own, they grow stronger, more confident, and less anxious. She upends the “hover-parenting” norm and invites us to rethink what real childhood looks like.In this episode you'll hear:•How childhood became over-scheduled, over-monitored, and under-trusted.•Why giving kids more freedom isn't neglect—it's empowerment.•Practical steps you can take this week to let your child take the reins (just a little).•Lenore's latest work including her brand-new TED Talk, “Why You Should Spend Less Time With Your Kids.” (Watch it here ➜ https://www.ted.com/talks/lenore_skenazy_why_you_should_spend_less_time_with_your_kids?language=en)  Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more. Follow Dr Jessica Hochman:Instagram: @AskDrJessica and Tiktok @askdrjessicaYouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica If you are interested in placing an ad on Your Child Is Normal click here or fill out our interest form.-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out: Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditi...

How are our kids actually spending their time — and is it aligned with what we value for our families' lives and for our children's well-being? This week, Amy and Margaret discuss: How sleep too often loses out to homework and activities Time tracking and the sobering truth it can show about how many hours a week our kids actually spend on screens How outdoor time and free play, too often in short supply, affects creativity, independence, and self-regulation Strategies for families to audit time, realign priorities, and invite kids into decision-making It's worth the effort to track how our time is actually spent. As Annie Dillard said: “How we spend our days is how we spend our lives.” Here are links to some of the resources we mention in the episode: Gretchen Livingston for Pew Research Center: The way U.S. teens spend their time is changing, but differences between boys and girls persist Cleveland Clinic: How Much Sleep Kids Need: Recommended Hours by Age Dahl KL, et. al: Time Playing Outdoors Among Children Aged 3-5 Years: National Survey of Children's Health, 2021. Yeshe Colliver et. al for Early Childhood Research Quarterly: Free play predicts self-regulation years later: Longitudinal evidence from a large Australian sample of toddlers and preschoolers Our Fresh Take with Christina Martin on How Children Learn Through Play Our Fresh Take with Lenore Skenazy, author of FREE-RANGE KIDS Our Fresh Take with Ginny Yurich, host of the 1000 Hours Outside podcast Our Fresh Take with Laura Vanderkam, time-tracking expert Sign up for the What Fresh Hell newsletter! Once a month you'll get our favorite recent episodes, plus links to other things to read and watch and listen to, and upcoming special events We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/ Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/FRESH Ready to raise money-smart kids? Start now with your first month FREE at acornsearly.com/FRESH! Head to GigSalad.com and book some awesome talent for your next party, and let them know that What Fresh Hell sent you. How kids spend time, kids and screen time, parenting priorities, unstructured play, outdoor play for kids, kids and sleep needs, family time management, limiting screen time, Annie Dillard quote parenting, homework vs sleep, raising independent kids, parenting podcast, What Fresh Hell episode, time tracking for families, free play benefits Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The secret to reducing childhood anxiety is actually quite simple: just let kids do more stuff on their own, says Lenore Skenazy, cofounder and president of Let Grow, an organization dedicated to normalizing childhood independence. In conversation with TED's Whitney Pennington Rodgers, Skenazy discusses why parenting has become more demanding in our safety-obsessed world — and offers a more joyful, trusting alternative to helicopter parenting, with tangible steps for how to start safely (and sanely) letting your kids grow. (This conversation was part of an exclusive TED Membership event. TED Membership is the best way to support and engage with the big ideas you love from TED. To learn more, visit ted.com/membership.)TED Talks Daily is nominated for the Signal Award for Best Conversation Starter Podcast. Vote here!Interested in learning more about upcoming TED events? Follow these links:TEDNext: ted.com/futureyouTEDAI San Francisco: ted.com/ai-sf Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How do you raise confident and capable children in a seemingly scary and unsafe world? According to Lenore Skenazy, the solution is simple yet controversial — you leave the kids alone. Lenore is the president of Let Grow and the founder of the Free Range Kids Movement where she argues that parents don't need to hover over their kids as much because they'll be more than okay — they'll thrive. Chris and Lenore discuss why overprotecting kids can backfire, how parents might be unintentionally stifling children's innate curiosity, and why one of the best tools to teach kids is to step away and let them learn and problem-solve themselves.FollowHost: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy | chrisduffycomedy.com)Guest: Lenore Skenazy (Instagram: @lenoreskenazy_freerange | LinkedIn: @lenoreskenazy | Website: https://www.freerangekids.com/) LinksInstagram: @letgroworghttps://letgrow.org/Free Range Kids: How Parents and Teachers Can Let Go and Let GrowSubscribe to TED Instagram: @tedYouTube: @TEDTikTok: @tedtoksLinkedIn: @ted-conferencesWebsite: ted.comPodcasts: ted.com/podcastsFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscriptsInterested in learning more about upcoming TED events? Follow these links:TEDNext: ted.com/futureyou Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ravi Gupta welcomes back Lenore Skenazy, author of Free-Range Kids and president of Let Grow, to explore how fear-driven parenting and digital distraction are reshaping childhood. From the 1980s milk-carton panic to today's surveillance tech, they show how over-scheduling breeds helplessness instead of competence. Citing new polling, Skenazy reveals kids overwhelmingly prefer unstructured play with friends over screens or adult-run activities. They link these trends to rising youth anxiety, falling literacy, and weakened civic resilience—arguing that restoring children's freedom is both a personal and political imperative. Signal Award voting (make sure to vote if you haven't yet): https://vote.signalaward.com/PublicVoting?utm_campaign=signal4_finalists_finalistnotification_092325&utm_medium=email&utm_source=cio#/2025/limited-series-specials/genre/science-education -- Leave us a voicemail with your thoughts on the show! 201-305-0084⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ravi at @RaviMGupta Notes from this episode are also available on Substack: https://thelostdebate.substack.com/ Read more from Ravi on Substack: https://realravigupta.substack.com  Follow The Branch at @thebranchmedia Listen to more episodes of Lost Debate on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lost-debate/id1591300785 Listen to more episodes of Lost Debate on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7xR9pch9DrQDiZfGB5oF0F Listen to Where the Schools Went: https://thebranchmedia.org/show/where-the-schools-went/ 

A family who had CPS called on them four separate times for letting their children play outside in front of their house. A mother who was arrested after her ten-year-old walked into town and back alone. How do we keep this from happening?Welcome back to the EPPiC Broadcast - today, our guest is Lenore Skenazy, president of Let Grow. She's here to discuss the negative consequences of society not allowing responsible children to spend time independently in their neighborhoods - and how to affect change.You can also find Lenore's recent TED Talk here! https://youtu.be/whaesnYloMQ?si=Vc8EZPxpmh9mi5Y9 The EPPiC Broadcast is hosted by Michael Ramey, president of the Parental Rights Foundation. You can sign up for email alerts to keep yourself informed on parental rights news at https://parentalrightsfoundation.org/get-involved/.Support the show

Journalist and activist Lenore Skenazy explains how fear and over-parenting left kids more anxious and less independent, and and how a movement to restore that independence is gaining ground.

Send us a textOkay, so you've probably heard the story: a New York mom lets her 9-year-old ride the subway alone… and the entire world loses its mind. That mom is my guest today, Lenore Skenazy, and she's been lovingly (and infamously) dubbed “The World's Worst Mom.” Spoiler: she's actually one of the bravest, funniest, and most sensible voices in parenting today.Lenore's simple act of trusting her kid sparked a global conversation about parenting, independence, and the culture of fear we've all been marinating in. She went from being vilified on morning shows to becoming the president of Let Grow and the author of Free Range Kids, a whole movement dedicated to giving kids back their confidence (and parents back their sanity).And honestly? Talking to her made me do a little gut-check of my own. When I imagined sending my son on the subway at 9, my first reaction was, “Oh hell no.” But then I thought about it—what was I actually afraid of? Abduction? Not really. More like him getting lost and maybe a little scared. And then I thought… wait. Isn't that kind of the point? To let him practice being lost and then figure it out? (Cue me rethinking all my “just let me do it for you” parenting moments.)In this episode, we dig into why we've become so terrified of letting kids do literally anything, how “worst-first” thinking has hijacked modern parenting, and why giving kids independence isn't neglect—it's actually the best gift we can give them. Lenore even tells me about a mom who was spoon-feeding her 10-year-old (yep, you read that right) and what happened when that kid finally learned to cut his own mango. Spoiler: it's glorious.If you've ever caught yourself hovering a little too close to your kids or wondering if you're “doing it wrong,” this episode is your friendly permission slip to breathe, back off a little, and let your kid surprise you. And if you're not a parent? Trust me, this convo still hits. It's really about fear, resilience, and how much we all grow when we're allowed to stumble a little.What's Inside:The wild story of how one subway ride made Lenore a global headlineWhy fear has become the default mode in modern parenting (and how to break free)The surprising ways overprotection backfires on kids' confidence and resiliencePractical steps from Lenore's Let Grow project that help families rebuild independence So here's the mic drop: are you living out of fear, or letting yourself and your kids grow into the badass humans you know you can be? If you've got a “world's worst mom” (or dad) story of your own, I want the tea. DM me on Instagram and let's laugh, cringe, and maybe rethink some of this parenting madness together.  Mentioned in this episode:Free Range Kids by Lenore SkenazyLet GrowPeter Gray's book Free to LearnJonathan Haidt's book The Anxious GenerationOonagh Duncan on InstagramFit Feels Good Strong AFLeave me a voice note on Speak Pipe! 

Michael Smerconish delivers a commentary from the Philadelphia suburbs discussing the gap between life perception and reality, particularly in the context of college education and the American Dream. He explores the realities most American college students face, emphasizing that a majority do not experience the 'traditional' four-year residential college experience. Smerconish connects this theme to political divides, noting how educational backgrounds correlate with political affiliations. Smerconish incorporates views from professionals like economist Neil Mahoney and politicians like Doug Sosnick, highlighting economic concerns and shifts in voter demographics. The narrative also brings in perspectives on America's strengths and optimism as expressed by figures like Jim Van Dehi and Tim Warrens, advocating that the American Dream, while challenged, is still alive. The script transitions into a conversation on modern childhood, discussing 'helicopter parenting' and advocating for greater childhood independence via insights from Lenore Skenazy, who promotes the 'Free Range Kids' movement. Finally, the segment touches on the poll question of whether the American Dream still holds true, revealing a more optimistic view from Smerconish's audience compared to a national survey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether it's micromanaging playtime, constantly hovering or incessantly texting, the adult takeover of childhood has created a crisis of anxiety in both children and parents, says Lenore Skenazy, cofounder and president Let Grow, an organization dedicated to normalizing childhood independence. With wit and humor, she lays out the unexpected benefits of letting our kids be a bit more “free range” — and shows why the most teachable moments happen when parents aren't there.For a chance to give your own TED Talk, fill out the Idea Search Application: ted.com/ideasearch.Interested in learning more about upcoming TED events? Follow these links:TEDNext: ted.com/futureyouTEDSports: ted.com/sportsTEDAI Vienna: ted.com/ai-viennaTEDAI San Francisco: ted.com/ai-sf Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What happens when an entire generation grows up micromanaged, chauffeured, and monitored as if childhood itself were a dangerous crime? In one of the most eye-opening and hilarious episodes of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, Lenore Skenazy — author of Free-Range Kids and co-founder of Let Grow — joins Ginny Yurich to expose the absurdity of today's fear-based parenting culture. With razor-sharp wit and decades of cultural insight, she dismantles the myths that keep parents locked in anxiety and kids locked out of real life. From Halloween candy scares to daycare workers logging every bathroom break, Lenore reveals how fear has crept into every corner of childhood — and why it's robbing our kids of resilience, joy, and independence. But this isn't just cultural critique — it's a blueprint for freedom. Lenore shares why worrying is just a false form of control, why exposure to reality (not more rules) is the cure for parental anxiety, and why unstructured play may be the most important “classroom” of all. Packed with humor, wisdom, and unforgettable one-liners, this conversation challenges parents to step out of the fear stew and give their kids back what they're desperate for: agency, trust, and the chance to grow. If you've ever felt torn between protecting your kids and preparing them for the real world, this episode is your wake-up call — and possibly the permission slip you've been waiting for. Learn more about Let Grow and all they have to offer here Get your copy of Free Range Kids here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this thought-provoking episode of Nothing Left Unsaid, Tim Green and his son Troy sit down with journalist and author Lenore Skenazy, famously dubbed “America's Worst Mom” after letting her 9-year-old ride the New York City subway alone. From that moment came a movement, Free-Range Kids and the nonprofit Let Grow, challenging a culture of fear that tells parents constant supervision is the only path to safety. Lenore shares how overprotection and “worst-first thinking” are fueling anxiety in both parents and children, while true resilience is built through independence, problem-solving, and trust. With humor, statistics, and stories from her years as a reporter and advocate, she reveals why kids are far safer than we think and how giving them freedom is one of the greatest gifts we can offer. This conversation blends cultural critique with practical wisdom, offering a hopeful blueprint for raising confident, capable kids in an age of anxiety, true to the mission of Nothing Left Unsaid. SPONSORS: ElevenLabs: Thanks to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ElevenLabs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for supporting this episode and powering Tim's voice. SOCIAL: Website: ⁠⁠nlupod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nlutimgreen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠facebook.com/NLUpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nlupod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AUDIO ONLY: Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen on Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen on Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ PERSONAL: Tackle ALS: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tackleals.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tim Green Books: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠authortimgreen.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Greg Brady spoke to Lenore Skenazy, President, “Free Range Kids”, “Let Grow” about What Kids Told Us About How to Get Them Off Their Phones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After Kelly's conversation with Lenore Skenazy this past Tuesday, we're going deeper into the moment that changed everything for this mom and sparked a national conversation about how we raise our kids. When Lenore's 9-year-old kept begging for some independence, she finally said yes—letting him ride the New York subway home alone from Bloomingdale's. The op-ed she wrote about it in The New York Sun brought fierce criticism and praise in equal measure, with some calling her brave and others suggesting she should be reported for child abuse. It's a story that gets to the heart of something so many of us wrestle with: How do we help our children develop confidence and self-reliance in a world that feels increasingly dangerous? And what happens when our desire to protect them might actually be holding them back from becoming the capable, independent people we want them to be? To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When well-meaning parents try to keep kids safe from every possible harm, they might actually be creating more anxious, less capable children. In this conversation recorded live on stage at this year's Aspen Ideas Festival, Kelly talks with Lenore Skenazy, who became known as "America's Worst Mom" after letting her nine-year-old ride the New York subway alone and psychologist Dr. Camilo Ortiz, who developed "Independence Therapy" to treat childhood anxiety through independence rather than avoidance. They explore how protecting kids from distress, disappointment, danger, and discomfort interferes with essential skill-building, why being around our children too much leads to over-parenting and how simple changes like waiting five seconds before jumping in to help can make a huge difference. The conversation covers practical strategies for fostering independence, the importance of mixed-age play and the hopeful news that 11 states have now passed laws protecting parents' rights to raise free-range kids. Special thanks to The Aspen Ideas Festival where this episode was recorded. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Send us a textOkay, let's talk about the thing that is straight-up hijacking our homes right now: screens. If you've ever shouted, “Get off your phone!” at your kid while... checking your own email for the 50th time that hour? Yep, same. That's why I brought on the brilliant, passionate, and hilariously relatable Emily Cherkin, also known as The Screen Time Consultant.Emily is a former middle school teacher turned full-time tech-intentional parenting badass. She's worked with families, schools, and even policymakers and has been quoted by CHUCK NORRIS, for crying out loud. But what really hit me? She gets it. She gets the emotional labor, the mom guilt, the struggle between “don't rot your brain” and “I just need 20 minutes of quiet to make dinner.”In this episode, Emily unpacks why screen time is actually a symptom, not the root problem; why parental controls are basically the IKEA instructions of tech parenting (look good on paper, don't really work); and how to shift our whole approach without going full “live in the woods with no WiFi” extreme.Also, fair warning: You will leave this conversation questioning the idea that your kid needs a phone “just in case they get kidnapped.” (Spoiler: statistically… no.)If you've ever handed over a screen and then immediately felt like a failure, or had a deep desire to yeet your kid's iPad into a lake, this episode is your new therapy. No judgment, no shame. Just some straight-up truth bombs and actual strategies that make sense in the real world.What's Inside: Why screens aren't the real issue, and what's actually going onThe sneaky ways screen time is hijacking relationships, not just attention spansWhy fear-based parenting (hello, Stranger Danger) is totally messing with our decisionsHow to build real-life skills in your kids before handing over the techFeeling overwhelmed and wondering if it's even possible to raise decent humans in a world full of TikTok and YouTube Shorts? You are not alone.This conversation is your reminder that you don't have to go full Amish to protect your kid's brain. Let's talk about what's working (and what's making you want to scream into a pillow). DM me on Instagram @oonaghduncan and let's swap screen-time war stories. Seriously. I want to hear what's happening at your house.Mentioned In This Episode:Emily Cherkin's book: The Screen Time SolutionLet Grow Movement, Lenore Skenazy's work on childhood independenceThe Light Phone (a non-smartphone alternative)Emily's WebsiteSocial Media Victims Law CenterFollow Emily on Instagram @thescreentimeconsultantOonagh Duncan on InstagramFit Feels GoodLeave me a voice note on Speak Pipe!

Yascha Mounk and Lenore Skenazy discuss why kids should take risks.  After letting her 9-year-old ride the New York City subway alone—and creating a media firestorm—Lenore Skenazy wrote the book, “Free-Range Kids.” Lenore is also a co-founder of Let Grow. In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and Lenore Skenazy explore why parents are reluctant to let their children take risks, how unsupervised activities help children learn, and how to embrace giving your kids independence. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Would YOU let your 9-year-old ride the NYC subway alone?!

Lenore Skenazy joins us for a discussion on fostering youth resilience and independence. We explore how unstructured time and autonomy can better equip young people to handle frustration and develop problem-solving skills.

Send us a textIn this episode, we explore how modern culture has stripped childhood of the freedom it needs to thrive—and what can be done to bring it back. Our guest is Lenore Skenazy, author of Free-Range Kids and co-founder of the nonprofit Let Grow, launched with Jonathan Haidt, Peter Gray, and Daniel Shuchman to champion independence, resilience, and real-world learning.Together, we unpack how fear, measurement, and control have come to dominate parenting and education. From the rise of isolated family units to the spread of enrichment culture, today's children are surrounded by adults who often confuse supervision with support. The result is a generation of kids with less room to explore, solve problems, and grow on their own.We talk about how Let Grow is working to change this—by making it normal again for kids to walk to the store, play unsupervised, and take age-appropriate risks. Lenore shares the story of a high school that gave students one week of unstructured play, and the surprising transformation that followed. The spark of self-direction wasn't lost—it was just waiting for space to reappear.Visit letgrow.org to explore free programs, school initiatives, and policy work that supports childhood independence.

Mentor Sessions Ep.012: Nathan Law on Hong Kong's Fight for Freedom, Bitcoin, and Lessons for the WestCould Hong Kong's slide into tyranny foreshadow challenges for the West? Is Bitcoin the key tool activists need to protect their freedom? In this powerful episode, we sit down with Nathan Law, Hong Kong's youngest-ever legislator, whose journey took him from student activist to political prisoner, and now to exile in the UK with a $140,000 bounty on his head. Nathan shares his firsthand account of the Umbrella Movement, the erosion of democracy in Hong Kong, and how Bitcoin helps activists resist financial control. This isn't just a story—it's an urgent signal. Stay tuned, because the stakes are higher than you might realize.What You'll Discover:• How Nathan went from college student to Hong Kong's youngest legislator • The stark reality of Hong Kong's fading freedoms under China's rule • Bitcoin's role in empowering activists against bank freezes and oppression • Vital lessons the West must heed from Hong Kong's struggleChapters:• 00:00:00 - Introduction: Hong Kong's Warning to the World• 00:01:42 - Nathan's Journey: Student Activist to Legislator• 00:03:04 - The Umbrella Movement and 2019 Protests• 00:04:25 - Escape to the UK: Life in Exile• 00:10:04 - Hong Kong Today: Tyranny and Censorship• 00:17:00 - Bitcoin vs. Financial Censorship• 00:24:20 - Education Under Siege: Indoctrination in Schools• 00:30:51 - Identity Crisis: Hong Kong vs. China• 00:36:04 - China's Rise and the West's Missteps• 00:43:09 - Bitcoin in Hong Kong: Freedom's Tool • 00:50:56 - Lessons for the West: Freedom Hangs by a Thread• 00:56:13 - Nathan's Why: A Reluctant Hero's Drive• 01:00:29 - How to Help: Supporting Hong Kong's Fight • 01:05:47 - Closing Call: Freedom's FutureAbout Nathan Law:• Book: Freedom: How We Lose It and How We Fight Back – Grab it on Amazon: https://www.nathanlawkc.com/freedom• Documentary: Who's Afraid of Nathan Law? – Emmy-nominated, stream on PBS or Amazon: https://www.pbs.org/pov/films/nathanlawfilm/• Follow Nathan: @nathanlawkc on all platforms (except TikTok) Schedule a Free Discovery Session with Nathan to fast-track your Bitcoin education and enhance your self-custody security: https://bitcoinmentor.io/?fluent-booking=calendar&host=nathan-1712797202&event=30min Struggling to explain Bitcoin to friends and family? Blockhunters - The Bitcoin Board Game makes it fun and simple. Visit blockhuntersgame.com and use code BTCMENTOR for 10% off to ignite Bitcoin curiosity today! FREE Bitcoin Book Giveaway: New to Bitcoin? Get Magic Internet Money by Jesse Berger FREE! Click here: bitcoinmentororange.com/magic-internet-money BOOK Private Sessions with Bitcoin Mentor: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. Visit bitcoinmentor.io Subscribe to Mentor Sessions: Don't miss out—follow us on Twitter:BTC Sessions: @BTCsessionsNathan: @theBTCmentorGary: @GaryLeeNYC Enjoyed this? Like, subscribe, and share! Watch our last episode with Lenore Skenazy on free-range parenting: https://youtu.be/IkhB9UdDolo#Bitcoin #HongKong #Freedom #Democracy #Activism #NathanLaw #BitcoinMentor #MentorSessions #HumanRights #BitcoinEducation #Blockchain #Crypto #BitcoinPodcast #Freedom #Podcast #umbrellaprotest

Is it possible that giving our kids more freedom might actually help them thrive? In this powerful episode of The Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy welcomes Lenore Skenazy—author, speaker, and founder of Let Grow—to explore the surprising connection between independence and mental wellness in kids. Together, they unpack how our culture's obsession with safety and control is fueling anxiety, and how simple acts of trust—like letting kids walk to the store or ride a bike alone—can be the very antidote our families need. Lenore shares the story that launched her into the national spotlight as “America's Worst Mom” (spoiler: she's anything but), along with decades of insight from research partners like Dr. Peter Gray and Jonathan Haidt. With warmth and humor, she offers actionable ideas and free Let Grow resources to help parents reclaim their confidence and raise capable, resilient kids. This is an inspiring, perspective-shifting episode for every parent ready to let go… and let grow. For links & more info about everything discussed in this episode, head to www.freshstartfamilyonline.com/274. Grab my FREE Quick Start Learning Bundle & discover 3 secrets to empower, connect, and build true collaboration with your strong-willed child! Head to ⁠https://freshstartfamilyonline.com/power⁠ Contest Time! ⁠Enter our YouTube Contest ⁠here and one one lucky family will win a package value of over $550! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mentor Sessions Ep.011: Lenore Skenazy onFree-Range Parenting, Bitcoin, and Raising Self-Sovereign Kids Did you know 80% of kids today are tracked like FedEx packages by their parents? Eight out of ten—crazy, right? But what if all that hovering is turning our kids into anxious, incapable adults who can't think for themselves? We're sitting down with Lenore Skenazy, the fearless mom dubbed “the world's worst” for letting her 9-year-old ride the NYC subway solo. She's the brains behind Free-Range Kids and Let Grow, a nonprofit smashing the helicopter parenting epidemic. This isn't just about letting kids play outside—it's about raising resilient, Bitcoin-ready rebels who can inherit the future. We're unpacking how surveillance kills trust, why our safety obsession is backfiring, and how Bitcoin's self-sovereignty ethos could be the key to badass parenting. Stick around if you're a parent, a Bitcoiner, or just fed up with society's nanny-state nonsense—this one's a must-watch. Chapters:00:00:00 - The Surveillance State Starts at HomeIntroduces the issue of child surveillance and its prevalence in modern parenting. 00:02:10 - Why Parents Can't Let GoExplores the societal and emotional reasons behind overprotective parenting. 00:05:23 - Trust Over TrackingHighlights the importance of trust as an alternative to constant monitoring. 00:12:06 - Bitcoin and Permissionless ParentingConnects the philosophy of Bitcoin to fostering independence in children. 00:15:22 - Attachment Done RightDiscusses healthy attachment and its role in raising confident kids. 00:19:16 - Play: The Secret SauceEmphasizes the value of unstructured play in child development. 00:27:51 - Let Grow's School RevolutionCovers initiatives like Let Grow and Play Club that promote free-range principles. 00:44:04 - The Anxious Generation's RootsExamines the historical shift toward anxiety-driven parenting. 00:55:56 - Facing Backlash and Building TrustCombines Lenore's personal story, the Bitcoin advantage, and the long-term benefits of trust.About Lenore Skenazy:Website: letgrow.orgTwitter: @FreeRangeKids Schedule a Free Discovery Session with Nathan to fast-track your Bitcoin education and enhance your self-custody security: https://bitcoinmentor.io/?fluent-booking=calendar&host=nathan-1712797202&event=30min Struggling to explain Bitcoin to friends and family? Blockhunters - The Bitcoin Board Game makes it fun and simple. Visit blockhuntersgame.com and use code BTCMENTOR for 10% off to ignite Bitcoin curiosity today! FREE Bitcoin Book Giveaway: New to Bitcoin? Get Magic Internet Money by Jesse Berger FREE! Click here: bitcoinmentororange.com/magic-internet-money BOOK Private Sessions with Bitcoin Mentor: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. Visit bitcoinmentor.io Subscribe to Mentor Sessions: Don't miss out—follow us on Twitter:BTC Sessions: @BTCsessionsNathan: @theBTCmentorGary: @GaryLeeNYC Enjoyed this episode? Like, subscribe, and share! Check out our previous interview with Tom Luongo on financial warfare and Bitcoin: Watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whaMYQeMHh0 #Bitcoin #Parenting #FreeRangeKids #SelfSovereignty #LetGrow #BitcoinEducation #BitcoinMentor #MentorSessions #Blockchain #Crypto #LenoreSkenazy #BitcoinPodcast #Freedom #Podcast

How do we raise confident, resilient kids in a culture that's become obsessed with supervision? In this episode, Dominic Gourley is joined by Lenore Skenazy – author of Free-Range Kids and President of Let Grow – to explore why independence is crucial for childhood development. They discuss why overprotection can backfire, how free play fosters leadership and creativity, and how building trust (not constant monitoring) strengthens both kids and parents. Drawing parallels between parenting and leadership in the workplace, Lenore and Dominic show why stepping back is the key to helping the next generation step up. If you want to raise or mentor more capable, resilient, and independent young people, this conversation is a must-listen. Learn more about Let Grow: https://letgrow.org/ Learn more about Human Synergistics: https://www.human-synergistics.com.au/

Kids and teens are experiencing less independence than in the past — whether due to screen time, parents' fears of letting them roam freely, or other factors. It's a problem. But why? And what can be done? In this episode, host Dr. Delaney Ruston discusses this important topic with journalist Lenore Skenazy, who was labeled “America's Worst Mom” after letting her 9-year-old take the New York City subway home alone. Skenazy has spent years sounding the alarm on the harms of decreased youth autonomy, including co-founding Let Grow with psychologists Jonathan Haidt and Peter Gray. This episode explores the factors contributing to decreased independence and offers tools for parents and schools to combat this trend. It also examines the role of technology and tracking devices in this context, addressing both their benefits and potential pitfalls. This episode is intended for adult and teen audiences.   Featured Expert Lenore Skenazy   Books Free Range Kids by Lenore Skenazy   Research References Mott Poll Report: Promoting children's Independence: What parents say vs do Media violence, physical aggression, and relational aggression in school age children: a short-term longitudinal study. (Aggressive Behavior)    Additional Resources Lenore Skenazy's blog LetGrow.Org   Time Code 00:00 Introduction 00:20 The Decline of Children's Autonomy 01:02 Challenges in Encouraging Independence 01:22 Parental Concerns and Media Influence 02:00 Exploring Solutions with Lenore Skenazy 02:39 Lenore's Controversial Parenting Decision 08:21 The Birth of Free Range Kids Movement 10:07 Statistics and Parental Fears 18:05 Let Grow Initiative and School Programs 22:34 Technology's Role in Children's Independence 32:44 Conclusion and Resources  

Are we protecting our kids or holding them back? In this episode, Justin talks with Lenore Skenazy about the unintended consequences of overprotection and why kids need to experience risk to build confidence, resilience, and essential life skills. From eliminating stairs in homes to constant parental surveillance, we examine how fear-based parenting is shaping modern childhood—and what we can do to change it. KEY POINTS: The growing trend of designing homes for maximum parental surveillance and risk elimination. Why removing all risks from a child’s life can have long-term negative effects on their mental health and independence. The difference between reasonable safety precautions (e.g., seat belts, helmets) and excessive protection that stifles growth. How parental fear contributes to anxiety, depression, and dependence in kids. Practical ways to introduce independence and calculated risk into children’s lives. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:"Fear doesn’t prevent death, but it prevents life." KEY INSIGHTS FOR PARENTS: Removing every possible risk doesn't make kids safer—it makes them less capable. Letting children navigate small risks (like climbing stairs, using a knife, or walking to school) helps them build real-world skills. Worrying can feel like an action, but it doesn’t change reality—teaching skills and fostering independence does. Kids don’t need a risk-free life; they need a chance to learn, adapt, and grow. RESOURCES MENTIONED: Let Grow – Free resources for fostering childhood independence. Supervision Not Required podcast – A new podcast on raising confident, capable kids. ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS: Identify one small area where you can give your child more independence. Teach them practical skills rather than avoiding potential risks. Shift your mindset from "How do I eliminate all risks?" to "How do I prepare my child to handle them?" Connect with other parents who value childhood independence to build confidence in your approach. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When Lenore Skenazy let her nine-year-old ride the subway alone, she was dubbed "the worst mother in the world." In this preview of Saturday's interview, discover why preparation beats protection and how trusting kids with real responsibility helps them become capable adults. Plus, learn why the illusion of control might be holding our children back. Quote of the Episode: "If you want responsible kids, you have to give them responsibility"—Alfie Kohn Key Insights: Preparation matters more than protection. Trust builds capability and confidence. Control is ultimately an illusion. Mistakes are learning opportunities. Clear boundaries enable independence. Practice builds competence. Real-world experience teaches responsibility. Consequences should lead to learning, not restriction. Resources Mentioned: Let Grow movement Lenore Skenazy's work Jonathan Haidt's research Happy Families Action Steps for Parents: Prepare Rather than Prevent Practice skills before independence Provide necessary tools and information Create clear safety guidelines Build Trust Gradually Start with small responsibilities Allow learning from mistakes Maintain open communication Focus on Growth Use setbacks as teaching moments Celebrate increased independence Balance freedom with preparation See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Terri speaks with Lenore Skenazy author, speaker, and cofounder of LetGrow.org to discuss the why and how of bringing independence, competence, and courage back to our lives.  The Challenge for this episode:Our challenge for this episode is to visit the LetGrow.org website and select the Parent Dropdown menu from the top bar.  Select at least one resource from the section, review it, and put it to use.  Then post about your experience on the Element is Everything podcast page on YouTube.  Let's see if we can get a support group going, sharing our trials and tribulations as we create a community of families raising the courageous generation.  As we let go so that they may grow, they will, in turn, find...their element.   

Structured activities. Monitored playdates. Helicopter parenting. Have we lost the ability to let our kids discover the world on their own? Many believe that free play is a great solution for both child and parent, but what exactly does healthy free play look like for toddlers and young children?  Lenore Skenazy, author and co-founder of Let Grow, explains how allowing children to be more independent will give them skills and confidence that will last a lifetime. Then, in our Parenting Story of the Day, Allison Schwalm talks about how daughter struggled with separation anxiety until she found a unique playgroup. The first day she dropped her daughter off, something magical happened. You can also watch this podcast on YouTube and reach us at podcast@munchkin.com.  Lenore Skenazy / Free Range Kids / IG / FB / X / YT / LinkedIn  Lenore is an American speaker, syndicated columnist, reality show host and author who co-founded Let Grow, an organization advocating for free-range parenting, with Professor Jonathan Haidt, Daniel Shuchman, Dr. Peter Gray. She assisted Haidt with two chapters on his instant #1 New York Times bestseller “The Anxious Generation” and is the author of “Free-Range Kids: Giving Our Children the Freedom We Had Without Going Nuts With Worry.” She was featured in the award-winning documentary film “Chasing Childhood” which features psychologists, activists, and leaders of the free play movement who fight to bring back the untold benefits of a less curated childhood. "Chasing Childhood" Documentary To learn more about the film, where to stream it, and how to host a screening in your community, please visit: https://chasingchildhooddoc.com/ StrollerCoaster: A Parenting Podcast is created by Munchkin Inc., the most loved baby lifestyle brand in the world.  You can find all your favorite Munchkin products – including the Night Owl Stroller featured in this episode – at Munchkin.com.  Use the code STROLLERCOASTER15 for 15% off regular-price items!  Follow Munchkin on Instagram / Facebook / Pinterest   Trees for the Future

Frank starts the show joined by WABC host Dominic Carter to talk about the Los Angeles Dodgers beating the New York Yankees in the World Series. He then talks with Kathy Boufford, an attorney and the author of the new book Divorce Matters: What You Really Need to Know When It's Time to Get a Divorce. They talk about marriage and the importance of having a good divorce. Frank talks with Danny Fingeroth, a veteran cultural critic, editor, educator and writer, whose books include Jack Ruby: The Many Faces of Oswald's Assassin. They talk about the story of Jack Ruby. He later has a discussion with Lenore Skenazy, Founder of Free Range Kids and the President of Let Grow, the non-profit promoting childhood independence. They discuss Halloween myths, trick-or-treating and children's independence. He later gives the UFO Report on Swiss documents revealing UFO sightings and an image revealed of a 'mothership'. Frank starts the third hour talking about the popularity of Uncrustables, a frozen peanut butter and jelly sandwich, among NFL players. He also gives Carmine's football picks for the week and sits down with Jim McCann, Founder of 1-800-FLOWERS and Smile Farms. He's also the author of the new book Lodestar: Tapping Into the 10 Timeless Pillars of Success. They talk about keys to success and lessons from the book. He also gives the Conspiracy of the Day about the connection between the Menendez brothers, Clive Davis and P. Diddy. Frank wraps up the show talking about Halloween. He is also joined by Noam Laden for News You Can Use and radio host Brian Kilmeade to discuss news of the day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Frank talks with Danny Fingeroth, a veteran cultural critic, editor, educator and writer, whose books include Jack Ruby: The Many Faces of Oswald's Assassin. They talk about the story of Jack Ruby. He later has a discussion with Lenore Skenazy, Founder of Free Range Kids and the President of Let Grow, the non-profit promoting childhood independence. They discuss Halloween myths, trick-or-treating and children's independence. He later gives the UFO Report on Swiss documents revealing UFO sightings and an image revealed of a 'mothership'. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lenore Skenazy is “America's Worst Mom”, founder of Free Range Kids and President of Let Grow. Bret talks to her about parenting in an era of zero risk.Find Lenore on X: https://x.com/FreeRangeKids  (@FreeRangeKids)Find Let Grow at their website: https://letgrow.org/*****PaleoValley: Wide array of amazing products, including SuperFood Golden Milk and beef sticks. Go to https://paleovalley.com/darkhorse for 15% off your first order.*****Join DarkHorse on Locals! Get access to our Discord server, exclusive live streams, live chats for all streams, and early access to many podcasts: https://darkhorse.locals.com/Check out the DHP store! Epic tabby, digital book burning, saddle up the dire wolves, and more: https://www.darkhorsestore.org/Theme Music: Thank you to Martin Molin of Wintergatan for providing us the rights to use their excellent music.Support the Show.