Podcast appearances and mentions of steve just

Are we setting up the next generation of field landmen for success? Tune in to our latest discussion about empowering young talent and redefining paths in land management. Let's shape a thriving future together! Time Stamps00:43 - Episode Introduction01:54 - Challenges in Recruiting Young Talent04:25 - Evolution of the Landman Profession08:46 - Training and Development in a Digital Age20:11 - Struggles with Recruitment and Training27:43 - Value and Appreciation for Field Landmen36:36 - Investing in the FutureHelp us improve our podcast! Share your thoughts in our quick survey.Snippets from the Episode“There's definitely an age gap and an experience gap in the field landman kind of side of the business.” - Brent“We've handicapped ourselves as an industry in the field side of things.” - Brent“We need more ammunition to bring a younger crowd into this industry.” - Steve“Just because you have a day rate doesn't mean that's what your average per day is.” - Steve“We're coming from an angle of here's what we need for our people to make them happy, to keep them here, to keep them loyal to you.” - BrentResourcesNeed Help With A Project? Meet With DudleyNeed Help with Staffing? Connect with Dudley Staffing Streamline Your Title Process with Dudley Select TitleWatch On YoutubeFollow Dudley Land Co. On LinkedInSubscribe To Our Newsletter, The Land Dept. MonthlyHave Questions? Email usMore from Our HostsConnect with Brent on LinkedInConnect with Steve on LinkedInConnect with Khalil on LinkedIn

We are running an end of year survey for our listeners. Let us know any feedback you have for us, what episodes resonated with you the most, and guest requests for 2024! RAG has emerged as one of the key pieces of the AI Engineer stack. Jerry from LlamaIndex called it a “hack”, Bryan from Hex compared it to “a recommendation system from LLMs”, and even LangChain started with it. RAG is crucial in any AI coding workflow. We talked about context quality for code in our Phind episode. Today's guests, Beyang Liu and Steve Yegge from SourceGraph, have been focused on code indexing and retrieval for over 15 years. We locked them in our new studio to record a 1.5 hours masterclass on the history of code search, retrieval interfaces for code, and how they get SOTA 30% completion acceptance rate in their Cody product by being better at the “bin packing problem” of LLM context generation. Google Grok → SourceGraph → CodyWhile at Google in 2008, Steve built Grok, which lives on today as Google Kythe. It allowed engineers to do code parsing and searching across different codebases and programming languages. (You might remember this blog post from Steve's time at Google) Beyang was an intern at Google at the same time, and Grok became the inspiration to start SourceGraph in 2013. The two didn't know eachother personally until Beyang brought Steve out of retirement 9 years later to join him as VP Engineering. Fast forward 10 years, SourceGraph has become to best code search tool out there and raised $223M along the way. Nine months ago, they open sourced SourceGraph Cody, their AI coding assistant. All their code indexing and search infrastructure allows them to get SOTA results by having better RAG than competitors:* Code completions as you type that achieve an industry-best Completion Acceptance Rate (CAR) as high as 30% using a context-enhanced open-source LLM (StarCoder)* Context-aware chat that provides the option of using GPT-4 Turbo, Claude 2, GPT-3.5 Turbo, Mistral 7x8B, or Claude Instant, with more model integrations planned* Doc and unit test generation, along with AI quick fixes for common coding errors* AI-enhanced natural language code search, powered by a hybrid dense/sparse vector search engine There are a few pieces of infrastructure that helped Cody achieve these results:Dense-sparse vector retrieval system For many people, RAG = vector similarity search, but there's a lot more that you can do to get the best possible results. From their release:"Sparse vector search" is a fancy name for keyword search that potentially incorporates LLMs for things like ranking and term expansion (e.g., "k8s" expands to "Kubernetes container orchestration", possibly weighted as in SPLADE): * Dense vector retrieval makes use of embeddings, the internal representation that LLMs use to represent text. Dense vector retrieval provides recall over a broader set of results that may have no exact keyword matches but are still semantically similar. * Sparse vector retrieval is very fast, human-understandable, and yields high recall of results that closely match the user query. * We've found the approaches to be complementary.There's a very good blog post by Pinecone on SPLADE for sparse vector search if you're interested in diving in. If you're building RAG applications in areas that have a lot of industry-specific nomenclature, acronyms, etc, this is a good approach to getting better results.SCIPIn 2016, Microsoft announced the Language Server Protocol (LSP) and the Language Server Index Format (LSIF). This protocol makes it easy for IDEs to get all the context they need from a codebase to get things like file search, references, “go to definition”, etc. SourceGraph developed SCIP, “a better code indexing format than LSIF”:* Simpler and More Efficient Format: SCIP utilizes Protobuf instead of JSON, which is used by LSIF. Protobuf is more space-efficient, simpler, and more suitable for systems programming. * Better Performance and Smaller Index Sizes: SCIP indexers, such as scip-clang, show enhanced performance and reduced index file sizes compared to LSIF indexers (10%-20% smaller)* Easier to Develop and Debug: SCIP's design, centered around human-readable string IDs for symbols, makes it faster and more straightforward to develop new language indexers. Having more efficient indexing is key to more performant RAG on code. Show Notes* Sourcegraph* Cody* Copilot vs Cody* Steve's Stanford seminar on Grok* Steve's blog* Grab* Fireworks* Peter Norvig* Noam Chomsky* Code search* Kelly Norton* Zoekt* v0.devSee also our past episodes on Cursor, Phind, Codeium and Codium as well as the GitHub Copilot keynote at AI Engineer Summit.Timestamps* [00:00:00] Intros & Backgrounds* [00:05:20] How Steve's work on Grok inspired SourceGraph for Beyang* [00:08:10] What's Cody?* [00:11:22] Comparison of coding assistants and the capabilities of Cody* [00:16:00] The importance of context (RAG) in AI coding tools* [00:21:33] The debate between Chomsky and Norvig approaches in AI* [00:30:06] Normsky: the Norvig + Chomsky models collision* [00:36:00] The death of the DSL?* [00:40:00] LSP, Skip, Kythe, BFG, and all that fun stuff* [00:53:00] The SourceGraph internal stack* [00:58:46] Building on open source models* [01:02:00] SourceGraph for engineering managers?* [01:12:00] Lightning RoundTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO-in-Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI. [00:00:16]Swyx: Hey, and today we're christening our new podcast studio in the Newton, and we have Beyang and Steve from Sourcegraph. Welcome. [00:00:25]Beyang: Hey, thanks for having us. [00:00:26]Swyx: So this has been a long time coming. I'm very excited to have you. We also are just celebrating the one year anniversary of ChatGPT yesterday, but also we'll be talking about the GA of Cody later on today. We'll just do a quick intros of both of you. Obviously, people can research you and check the show notes for more. Beyang, you worked in computer vision at Stanford and then you worked at Palantir. I did, yeah. You also interned at Google. [00:00:48]Beyang: I did back in the day where I get to use Steve's system, DevTool. [00:00:53]Swyx: Right. What was it called? [00:00:55]Beyang: It was called Grok. Well, the end user thing was Google Code Search. That's what everyone called it, or just like CS. But the brains of it were really the kind of like Trigram index and then Grok, which provided the reference graph. [00:01:07]Steve: Today it's called Kythe, the open source Google one. It's sort of like Grok v3. [00:01:11]Swyx: On your podcast, which you've had me on, you've interviewed a bunch of other code search developers, including the current developer of Kythe, right? [00:01:19]Beyang: No, we didn't have any Kythe people on, although we would love to if they're up for it. We had Kelly Norton, who built a similar system at Etsy, it's an open source project called Hound. We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph. Yeah. [00:01:45]Swyx: So you teamed up with Quinn over 10 years ago to start Sourcegraph and you were indexing all code on the internet. And now you're in a perfect spot to create a code intelligence startup. Yeah, yeah. [00:01:56]Beyang: I guess the backstory was, I used Google Code Search while I was an intern. And then after I left that internship and worked elsewhere, it was the single dev tool that I missed the most. I felt like my job was just a lot more tedious and much more of a hassle without it. And so when Quinn and I started working together at Palantir, he had also used various code search engines in open source over the years. And it was just a pain point that we both felt, both working on code at Palantir and also working within Palantir's clients, which were a lot of Fortune 500 companies, large financial institutions, folks like that. And if anything, the pains they felt in dealing with large complex code bases made our pain points feel small by comparison. So that was really the impetus for starting Sourcegraph. [00:02:42]Swyx: Yeah, excellent. Steve, you famously worked at Amazon. And you've told many, many stories. I want every single listener of Latent Space to check out Steve's YouTube because he effectively had a podcast that you didn't tell anyone about or something. You just hit record and just went on a few rants. I'm always here for your Stevie rants. And then you moved to Google, where you also had some interesting thoughts on just the overall Google culture versus Amazon. You joined Grab as head of eng for a couple of years. I'm from Singapore, so I have actually personally used a lot of Grab's features. And it was very interesting to see you talk so highly of Grab's engineering and sort of overall prospects. [00:03:21]Steve: Because as a customer, it sucked? [00:03:22]Swyx: Yeah, no, it's just like, being from a smaller country, you never see anyone from our home country being on a global stage or talked about as a startup that people admire or look up to, like on the league that you, with all your legendary experience, would consider equivalent. Yeah. [00:03:41]Steve: Yeah, no, absolutely. They actually, they didn't even know that they were as good as they were, in a sense. They started hiring a bunch of people from Silicon Valley to come in and sort of like fix it. And we came in and we were like, Oh, we could have been a little better operational excellence and stuff. But by and large, they're really sharp. The only thing about Grab is that they get criticized a lot for being too westernized. Oh, by who? By Singaporeans who don't want to work there. [00:04:06]Swyx: Okay. I guess I'm biased because I'm here, but I don't see that as a problem. If anything, they've had their success because they were more westernized than the Sanders Singaporean tech company. [00:04:15]Steve: I mean, they had their success because they are laser focused. They copy to Amazon. I mean, they're executing really, really, really well for a giant. I was on a slack with 2,500 engineers. It was like this giant waterfall that you could dip your toe into. You'd never catch up. Actually, the AI summarizers would have been really helpful there. But yeah, no, I think Grab is successful because they're just out there with their sleeves rolled up, just making it happen. [00:04:43]Swyx: And for those who don't know, it's not just like Uber of Southeast Asia, it's also a super app. PayPal Plus. [00:04:48]Steve: Yeah. [00:04:49]Swyx: In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West. We just don't understand it. [00:04:57]Beyang: Yeah. [00:04:58]Steve: It's just kind of curious. They didn't work in India either. And it was primarily because of bandwidth reasons and smaller phones. [00:05:03]Swyx: That should change now. It should. [00:05:05]Steve: And maybe we'll see a super app here. [00:05:08]Swyx: You retired-ish? I did. You retired-ish on your own video game? Mm-hmm. Any fun stories about that? And that's also where you discovered some need for code search, right? Mm-hmm. [00:05:16]Steve: Sure. A need for a lot of stuff. Better programming languages, better databases. Better everything. I mean, I started in like 95, right? Where there was kind of nothing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:24]Beyang: I just want to say, I remember when you first went to Grab because you wrote that blog post talking about why you were excited about it, about like the expanding Asian market. And our reaction was like, oh, man, how did we miss stealing it with you? [00:05:36]Swyx: Hiring you. [00:05:37]Beyang: Yeah. [00:05:38]Steve: I was like, miss that. [00:05:39]Swyx: Tell that story. So how did this happen? Right? So you were inspired by Grok. [00:05:44]Beyang: I guess the backstory from my point of view is I had used code search and Grok while at Google, but I didn't actually know that it was connected to you, Steve. I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it. And that was very eye opening. I was like, oh, like that guy, like the guy who, you know, writes the extremely thoughtful ranty like blog posts also built that system. And so that's how I knew, you know, you were involved in that. And then, you know, we always wanted to hire you, but never knew quite how to approach you or, you know, get that conversation started. [00:06:34]Steve: Well, we got introduced by Max, right? Yeah. It was temporal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a no brainer. They called me up and I had noticed when Sourcegraph had come out. Of course, when they first came out, I had this dagger of jealousy stabbed through me piercingly, which I remember because I am not a jealous person by any means, ever. But boy, I was like, but I was kind of busy, right? And just one thing led to another. I got sucked back into the ads vortex and whatever. So thank God Sourcegraph actually kind of rescued me. [00:07:05]Swyx: Here's a chance to build DevTools. Yeah. [00:07:08]Steve: That's the best. DevTools are the best. [00:07:10]Swyx: Cool. Well, so that's the overall intro. I guess we can get into Cody. Is there anything else that like people should know about you before we get started? [00:07:18]Steve: I mean, everybody knows I'm a musician. I can juggle five balls. [00:07:24]Swyx: Five is good. Five is good. I've only ever managed three. [00:07:27]Steve: Five is hard. Yeah. And six, a little bit. [00:07:30]Swyx: Wow. [00:07:31]Beyang: That's impressive. [00:07:32]Alessio: So yeah, to jump into Sourcegraph, this has been a company 10 years in the making. And as Sean said, now you're at the right place. Phase two. Now, exactly. You spent 10 years collecting all this code, indexing, making it easy to surface it. Yeah. [00:07:47]Swyx: And also learning how to work with enterprises and having them trust you with their code bases. Yeah. [00:07:52]Alessio: Because initially you were only doing on-prem, right? Like a lot of like VPC deployments. [00:07:55]Beyang: So in the very early days, we're cloud only. But the first major customers we landed were all on-prem, self-hosted. And that was, I think, related to the nature of the problem that we're solving, which becomes just like a critical, unignorable pain point once you're above like 100 devs or so. [00:08:11]Alessio: Yeah. And now Cody is going to be GA by the time this releases. So congrats to your future self for launching this in two weeks. Can you give a quick overview of just what Cody is? I think everybody understands that it's a AI coding agent, but a lot of companies say they have a AI coding agent. So yeah, what does Cody do? How do people interface with it? [00:08:32]Beyang: Yeah. So how is it different from the like several dozen other AI coding agents that exist in the market now? When we thought about building a coding assistant that would do things like code generation and question answering about your code base, I think we came at it from the perspective of, you know, we've spent the past decade building the world's best code understanding engine for human developers, right? So like it's kind of your guide as a human dev if you want to go and dive into a large complex code base. And so our intuition was that a lot of the context that we're providing to human developers would also be useful context for AI developers to consume. And so in terms of the feature set, Cody is very similar to a lot of other assistants. It does inline autocompletion. It does code base aware chat. It does specific commands that automate, you know, tasks that you might rather not want to do like generating unit tests or adding detailed documentation. But we think the core differentiator is really the quality of the context, which is hard to kind of describe succinctly. It's a bit like saying, you know, what's the difference between Google and Alta Vista? There's not like a quick checkbox list of features that you can rattle off, but it really just comes down to all the attention and detail that we've paid to making that context work well and be high quality and fast for human devs. We're now kind of plugging into the AI coding assistant as well. Yeah. [00:09:53]Steve: I mean, just to add my own perspective on to what Beyang just described, RAG is kind of like a consultant that the LLM has available, right, that knows about your code. RAG provides basically a bridge to a lookup system for the LLM, right? Whereas fine tuning would be more like on the job training for somebody. If the LLM is a person, you know, and you send them to a new job and you do on the job training, that's what fine tuning is like, right? So tuned to our specific task. You're always going to need that expert, even if you get the on the job training, because the expert knows your particular code base, your task, right? That expert has to know your code. And there's a chicken and egg problem because, right, you know, we're like, well, I'm going to ask the LLM about my code, but first I have to explain it, right? It's this chicken and egg problem. That's where RAG comes in. And we have the best consultants, right? The best assistant who knows your code. And so when you sit down with Cody, right, what Beyang said earlier about going to Google and using code search and then starting to feel like without it, his job was super tedious. Once you start using these, do you guys use coding assistants? [00:10:53]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:10:54]Steve: I mean, like we're getting to the point very quickly, right? Where you feel like almost like you're programming without the internet, right? Or something, you know, it's like you're programming back in the nineties without the coding assistant. Yeah. Hopefully that helps for people who have like no idea about coding systems, what they are. [00:11:09]Swyx: Yeah. [00:11:10]Alessio: I mean, going back to using them, we had a lot of them on the podcast already. We had Cursor, we have Codium and Codium, very similar names. [00:11:18]Swyx: Yeah. Find, and then of course there's Copilot. [00:11:22]Alessio: You had a Copilot versus Cody blog post, and I think it really shows the context improvement. So you had two examples that stuck with me. One was, what does this application do? And the Copilot answer was like, oh, it uses JavaScript and NPM and this. And it's like, but that's not what it does. You know, that's what it's built with. Versus Cody was like, oh, these are like the major functions. And like, these are the functionalities and things like that. And then the other one was, how do I start this up? And Copilot just said NPM start, even though there was like no start command in the package JSON, but you know, most collapse, right? Most projects use NPM start. So maybe this does too. How do you think about open source models? Because Copilot has their own private thing. And I think you guys use Starcoder, if I remember right. Yeah, that's correct. [00:12:09]Beyang: I think Copilot uses some variant of Codex. They're kind of cagey about it. I don't think they've like officially announced what model they use. [00:12:16]Swyx: And I think they use a range of models based on what you're doing. Yeah. [00:12:19]Beyang: So everyone uses a range of model. Like no one uses the same model for like inline completion versus like chat because the latency requirements for. Oh, okay. Well, there's fill in the middle. There's also like what the model's trained on. So like we actually had completions powered by Claude Instant for a while. And but you had to kind of like prompt hack your way to get it to output just the code and not like, hey, you know, here's the code you asked for, like that sort of text. So like everyone uses a range of models. We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick. And I think that's been to our advantage. Like today, Cody uses Starcoder for inline completions. And with the benefit of the context that we provide, we actually show comparable completion acceptance rate metrics. It's kind of like the standard metric that folks use to evaluate inline completion quality. It's like if I show you a completion, what's the chance that you actually accept the completion versus you reject it? And so we're at par with Copilot, which is at the head of that industry right now. And we've been able to do that with the Starcoder model, which is open source and the benefit of the context fetching stuff that we provide. And of course, a lot of like prompt engineering and other stuff along the way. [00:13:40]Alessio: And Steve, you wrote a post called cheating is all you need about what you're building. And one of the points you made is that everybody's fighting on the same axis, which is better UI and the IDE, maybe like a better chat response. But data modes are kind of the most important thing. And you guys have like a 10 year old mode with all the data you've been collecting. How do you kind of think about what other companies are doing wrong, right? Like, why is nobody doing this in terms of like really focusing on RAG? I feel like you see so many people. Oh, we just got a new model. It's like a bit human eval. And it's like, well, but maybe like that's not what we should really be doing, you know? Like, do you think most people underestimate the importance of like the actual RAG in code? [00:14:21]Steve: I think that people weren't doing it much. It wasn't. It's kind of at the edges of AI. It's not in the center. I know that when ChatGPT launched, so within the last year, I've heard a lot of rumblings from inside of Google, right? Because they're undergoing a huge transformation to try to, you know, of course, get into the new world. And I heard that they told, you know, a bunch of teams to go and train their own models or fine tune their own models, right? [00:14:43]Swyx: Both. [00:14:43]Steve: And, you know, it was a s**t show. Nobody knew how to do it. They launched two coding assistants. One was called Code D with an EY. And then there was, I don't know what happened in that one. And then there's Duet, right? Google loves to compete with themselves, right? They do this all the time. And they had a paper on Duet like from a year ago. And they were doing exactly what Copilot was doing, which was just pulling in the local context, right? But fundamentally, I thought of this because we were talking about the splitting of the [00:15:10]Swyx: models. [00:15:10]Steve: In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better. And that fragmentation of models, actually, we expected to continue and proliferate, right? Because we are fundamentally, we're a recommender engine right now. Yeah, we're recommending code to the LLM. We're saying, may I interest you in this code right here so that you can answer my question? [00:15:34]Swyx: Yeah? [00:15:34]Steve: And being good at recommender engine, I mean, who are the best recommenders, right? There's YouTube and Spotify and, you know, Amazon or whatever, right? Yeah. [00:15:41]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:41]Steve: And they all have many, many, many, many, many models, right? For all fine-tuned for very specific, you know. And that's where we're heading in code, too. Absolutely. [00:15:50]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:50]Alessio: We just did an episode we released on Wednesday, which we said RAG is like Rexis or like LLMs. You're basically just suggesting good content. [00:15:58]Swyx: It's like what? Recommendations. [00:15:59]Beyang: Recommendations. [00:16:00]Alessio: Oh, got it. [00:16:01]Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:02]Swyx: So like the naive implementation of RAG is you embed everything, throw it in a vector database, you embed your query, and then you find the nearest neighbors, and that's your RAG. But actually, you need to rank it. And actually, you need to make sure there's sample diversity and that kind of stuff. And then you're like slowly gradient dissenting yourself towards rediscovering proper Rexis, which has been traditional ML for a long time. But like approaching it from an LLM perspective. Yeah. [00:16:24]Beyang: I almost think of it as like a generalized search problem because it's a lot of the same things. Like you want your layer one to have high recall and get all the potential things that could be relevant. And then there's typically like a layer two re-ranking mechanism that bumps up the precision and tries to get the relevant stuff to the top of the results list. [00:16:43]Swyx: Have you discovered that ranking matters a lot? Oh, yeah. So the context is that I think a lot of research shows that like one, context utilization matters based on model. Like GPT uses the top of the context window, and then apparently Claude uses the bottom better. And it's lossy in the middle. Yeah. So ranking matters. No, it really does. [00:17:01]Beyang: The skill with which models are able to take advantage of context is always going to be dependent on how that factors into the impact on the training loss. [00:17:10]Swyx: Right? [00:17:10]Beyang: So like if you want long context window models to work well, then you have to have a ton of data where it's like, here's like a billion lines of text. And I'm going to ask a question about like something that's like, you know, embedded deeply into it and like, give me the right answer. And unless you have that training set, then of course, you're going to have variability in terms of like where it attends to. And in most kind of like naturally occurring data, the thing that you're talking about right now, the thing I'm asking you about is going to be something that we talked about recently. [00:17:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:17:36]Steve: Did you really just say gradient dissenting yourself? Actually, I love that it's entered the casual lexicon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:44]Swyx: My favorite version of that is, you know, how we have to p-hack papers. So, you know, when you throw humans at the problem, that's called graduate student dissent. That's great. It's really awesome. [00:17:54]Alessio: I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work. So you can ask Cody to make changes on a code block and you can still edit the same file at the same time. [00:18:07]Swyx: Yeah. [00:18:07]Alessio: How do you see that in the future? Like, do you see a lot of Cody's running together at the same time? Like, how do you validate also that they're not messing each other up as they make changes in the code? And maybe what are the limitations today? And what do you think about where the attack is going? [00:18:21]Steve: I want to start with a little history and then I'm going to turn it over to Bian, all right? So we actually had this feature in the very first launch back in June. Dominic wrote it. It was called nonstop Cody. And you could have multiple, basically, LLM requests in parallel modifying your source [00:18:37]Swyx: file. [00:18:37]Steve: And he wrote a bunch of code to handle all of the diffing logic. And you could see the regions of code that the LLM was going to change, right? And he was showing me demos of it. And it just felt like it was just a little before its time, you know? But a bunch of that stuff, that scaffolding was able to be reused for where we're inline [00:18:56]Swyx: sitting today. [00:18:56]Steve: How would you characterize it today? [00:18:58]Beyang: Yeah, so that interface has really evolved from a, like, hey, general purpose, like, request anything inline in the code and have the code update to really, like, targeted features, like, you know, fix the bug that exists at this line or request a very specific [00:19:13]Swyx: change. [00:19:13]Beyang: And the reason for that is, I think, the challenge that we ran into with inline fixes, and we do want to get to the point where you could just fire and forget and have, you know, half a dozen of these running in parallel. But I think we ran into the challenge early on that a lot of people are running into now when they're trying to construct agents, which is the reliability of, you know, working code generation is just not quite there yet in today's language models. And so that kind of constrains you to an interaction where the human is always, like, in the inner loop, like, checking the output of each response. And if you want that to work in a way where you can be asynchronous, you kind of have to constrain it to a domain where today's language models can generate reliable code well enough. So, you know, generating unit tests, that's, like, a well-constrained problem. Or fixing a bug that shows up as, like, a compiler error or a test error, that's a well-constrained problem. But the more general, like, hey, write me this class that does X, Y, and Z using the libraries that I have, that is not quite there yet, even with the benefit of really good context. Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution. And if we're to really define that down, I think it implies a couple things. You have, like, a multi-step process where each step is fully automated. We don't have to have a human in the loop every time. And there's also kind of like an LM call at each stage or nearly every stage in that [00:20:45]Swyx: chain. [00:20:45]Beyang: Based on all the work that we've done, you know, with the inline interactions, with kind of like general Codyfeatures for implementing longer chains of thought, we're actually a little bit more bearish than the average, you know, AI hypefluencer out there on the feasibility of agents with purely kind of like transformer-based models. To your original question, like, the inline interactions with CODI, we actually constrained it to be more targeted, like, you know, fix the current error or make this quick fix. I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base. That's a waste of time. You'd rather just have it write the right thing and then move on with your life or not have to think about it. And that's what we're trying to work towards. [00:21:37]Steve: I mean, yeah, we're not going in the agent direction, right? I mean, I'll believe in agents when somebody shows me one that works. Yeah. Instead, we're working on, you know, sort of solidifying our strength, which is bringing the right context in. So new context sources, ways for you to plug in your own context, ways for you to control or influence the context, you know, the mixing that happens before the request goes out, etc. And there's just so much low-hanging fruit left in that space that, you know, agents seems like a little bit of a boondoggle. [00:22:03]Beyang: Just to dive into that a little bit further, like, I think, you know, at a very high level, what do people mean when they say agents? They really mean, like, greater automation, fully automated, like, the dream is, like, here's an issue, go implement that. And I don't have to think about it as a human. And I think we are working towards that. Like, that is the eventual goal. I think it's specifically the approach of, like, hey, can we have a transformer-based LM alone be the kind of, like, backbone or the orchestrator of these agentic flows? Where we're a little bit more bearish today. [00:22:31]Swyx: You want the human in the loop. [00:22:32]Beyang: I mean, you kind of have to. It's just a reality of the behavior of language models that are purely, like, transformer-based. And I think that's just like a reflection of reality. And I don't think people realize that yet. Because if you look at the way that a lot of other AI tools have implemented context fetching, for instance, like, you see this in the Copilot approach, where if you use, like, the at-workspace thing that supposedly provides, like, code-based level context, it has, like, an agentic approach where you kind of look at how it's behaving. And it feels like they're making multiple requests to the LM being like, what would you do in this case? Would you search for stuff? What sort of files would you gather? Go and read those files. And it's like a multi-hop step, so it takes a long while. It's also non-deterministic. Because any sort of, like, LM invocation, it's like a dice roll. And then at the end of the day, the context it fetches is not that good. Whereas our approach is just like, OK, let's do some code searches that make sense. And then maybe, like, crawl through the reference graph a little bit. That is fast. That doesn't require any sort of LM invocation at all. And we can pull in much better context, you know, very quickly. So it's faster. [00:23:37]Swyx: It's more reliable. [00:23:37]Beyang: It's deterministic. And it yields better context quality. And so that's what we think. We just don't think you should cargo cult or naively go like, you know, agents are the [00:23:46]Swyx: future. [00:23:46]Beyang: Let's just try to, like, implement agents on top of the LM that exists today. I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows. [00:24:00]Swyx: It makes sense. You know, we're very much focused on developer inner loop right now. But you do see things eventually moving towards developer outer loop. Yeah. So would you basically say that they're tackling the agent's problem that you don't want to tackle? [00:24:11]Beyang: No, I would say at a high level, we are after maybe, like, the same high level problem, which is like, hey, I want some code written. I want to develop some software and can automate a system. Go build that software for me. I think the approaches might be different. So I think the analogy in my mind is, I think about, like, the AI chess players. Coding, in some senses, I mean, it's similar and dissimilar to chess. I think one question I ask is, like, do you think producing code is more difficult than playing chess or less difficult than playing chess? More. [00:24:41]Swyx: I think more. [00:24:41]Beyang: Right. And if you look at the best AI chess players, like, yes, you can use an LLM to play chess. Like, people have showed demos where it's like, oh, like, yeah, GPT-4 is actually a pretty decent, like, chess move suggester. Right. But you would never build, like, a best in class chess player off of GPT-4 alone. [00:24:57]Swyx: Right. [00:24:57]Beyang: Like, the way that people design chess players is that you have kind of like a search space and then you have a way to explore that search space efficiently. There's a bunch of search algorithms, essentially. We were doing tree search in various ways. And you can have heuristic functions, which might be powered by an LLM. [00:25:12]Swyx: Right. [00:25:12]Beyang: Like, you might use an LLM to generate proposals in that space that you can efficiently explore. But the backbone is still this kind of more formalized tree search based approach rather than the LLM itself. And so I think my high level intuition is that, like, the way that we get to more reliable multi-step workflows that do things beyond, you know, generate unit test, it's really going to be like a search based approach where you use an LLM as kind of like an advisor or a proposal function, sort of your heuristic function, like the ASTAR search algorithm. But it's probably not going to be the thing that is the backbone, because I guess it's not the right tool for that. Yeah. [00:25:50]Swyx: I can see yourself kind of thinking through this, but not saying the words, the sort of philosophical Peter Norvig type discussion. Maybe you want to sort of introduce that in software. Yeah, definitely. [00:25:59]Beyang: So your listeners are savvy. They're probably familiar with the classic like Chomsky versus Norvig debate. [00:26:04]Swyx: No, actually, I wanted, I was prompting you to introduce that. Oh, got it. [00:26:08]Beyang: So, I mean, if you look at the history of artificial intelligence, right, you know, it goes way back to, I don't know, it's probably as old as modern computers, like 50s, 60s, 70s. People are debating on like, what is the path to producing a sort of like general human level of intelligence? And kind of two schools of thought that emerged. One is the Norvig school of thought, which roughly speaking includes large language models, you know, regression, SVN, basically any model that you kind of like learn from data. And it's like data driven. Most of machine learning would fall under this umbrella. And that school of thought says like, you know, just learn from the data. That's the approach to reaching intelligence. And then the Chomsky approach is more things like compilers and parsers and formal systems. So basically like, let's think very carefully about how to construct a formal, precise system. And that will be the approach to how we build a truly intelligent system. I think Lisp was invented so that you could create like rules-based systems that you would call AI. As a language. Yeah. And for a long time, there was like this debate, like there's certain like AI research labs that were more like, you know, in the Chomsky camp and others that were more in the Norvig camp. It's a debate that rages on today. And I feel like the consensus right now is that, you know, Norvig definitely has the upper hand right now with the advent of LMs and diffusion models and all the other recent progress in machine learning. But the Chomsky-based stuff is still really useful in my view. I mean, it's like parsers, compilers, basically a lot of the stuff that provides really good context. It provides kind of like the knowledge graph backbone that you want to explore with your AI dev tool. Like that will come from kind of like Chomsky-based tools like compilers and parsers. It's a lot of what we've invested in in the past decade at Sourcegraph and what you build with Grok. Basically like these formal systems that construct these very precise knowledge graphs that are great context providers and great kind of guard rails enforcers and kind of like safety checkers for the output of a more kind of like data-driven, fuzzier system that uses like the Norvig-based models. [00:28:03]Steve: Jang was talking about this stuff like it happened in the middle ages. Like, okay, so when I was in college, I was in college learning Lisp and prologue and planning and all the deterministic Chomsky approaches to AI. And I was there when Norvig basically declared it dead. I was there 3,000 years ago when Norvig and Chomsky fought on the volcano. When did he declare it dead? [00:28:26]Swyx: What do you mean he declared it dead? [00:28:27]Steve: It was like late 90s. [00:28:29]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:29]Steve: When I went to Google, Peter Norvig was already there. He had basically like, I forget exactly where. It was some, he's got so many famous short posts, you know, amazing. [00:28:38]Swyx: He had a famous talk, the unreasonable effectiveness of data. Yeah. [00:28:41]Steve: Maybe that was it. But at some point, basically, he basically convinced everybody that deterministic approaches had failed and that heuristic-based, you know, data-driven statistical approaches, stochastic were better. [00:28:52]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:52]Steve: The primary reason I can tell you this, because I was there, was that, was that, well, the steam-powered engine, no. The reason was that the deterministic stuff didn't scale. [00:29:06]Swyx: Yeah. Right. [00:29:06]Steve: They're using prologue, man, constraint systems and stuff like that. Well, that was a long time ago, right? Today, actually, these Chomsky-style systems do scale. And that's, in fact, exactly what Sourcegraph has built. Yeah. And so we have a very unique, I love the framing that Bjong's made, that the marriage of the Chomsky and the Norvig, you know, sort of models, you know, conceptual models, because we, you know, we have both of them and they're both really important. And in fact, there, there's this really interesting, like, kind of overlap between them, right? Where like the AI or our graph or our search engine could potentially provide the right context for any given query, which is, of course, why ranking is important. But what we've really signed ourselves up for is an extraordinary amount of testing. [00:29:45]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:45]Steve: Because in SWIGs, you were saying that, you know, GPT-4 tends to the front of the context window and maybe other LLMs to the back and maybe, maybe the LLM in the middle. [00:29:53]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:53]Steve: And so that means that, you know, if we're actually like, you know, verifying whether we, you know, some change we've made has improved things, we're going to have to test putting it at the beginning of the window and at the end of the window, you know, and maybe make the right decision based on the LLM that you've chosen. Which some of our competitors, that's a problem that they don't have, but we meet you, you know, where you are. Yeah. And we're, just to finish, we're writing tens of thousands. We're generating tests, you know, fill in the middle type tests and things. And then using our graph to basically sort of fine tune Cody's behavior there. [00:30:20]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:21]Beyang: I also want to add, like, I have like an internal pet name for this, like kind of hybrid architecture that I'm trying to make catch on. Maybe I'll just say it here. Just saying it publicly kind of makes it more real. But like, I call the architecture that we've developed the Normsky architecture. [00:30:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:36]Beyang: I mean, it's obviously a portmanteau of Norvig and Chomsky, but the acronym, it stands for non-agentic, rapid, multi-source code intelligence. So non-agentic because... Rolls right off the tongue. And Normsky. But it's non-agentic in the sense that like, we're not trying to like pitch you on kind of like agent hype, right? Like it's the things it does are really just developer tools developers have been using for decades now, like parsers and really good search indexes and things like that. Rapid because we place an emphasis on speed. We don't want to sit there waiting for kind of like multiple LLM requests to return to complete a simple user request. Multi-source because we're thinking broadly about what pieces of information and knowledge are useful context. So obviously starting with things that you can search in your code base, and then you add in the reference graph, which kind of like allows you to crawl outward from those initial results. But then even beyond that, you know, sources of information, like there's a lot of knowledge that's embedded in docs, in PRDs or product specs, in your production logging system, in your chat, in your Slack channel, right? Like there's so much context is embedded there. And when you're a human developer, and you're trying to like be productive in your code base, you're going to go to all these different systems to collect the context that you need to figure out what code you need to write. And I don't think the AI developer will be any different. It will need to pull context from all these different sources. So we're thinking broadly about how to integrate these into Codi. We hope through kind of like an open protocol that like others can extend and implement. And this is something else that should be accessible by December 14th in kind of like a preview stage. But that's really about like broadening this notion of the code graph beyond your Git repository to all the other sources where technical knowledge and valuable context can live. [00:32:21]Steve: Yeah, it becomes an artifact graph, right? It can link into your logs and your wikis and any data source, right? [00:32:27]Alessio: How do you guys think about the importance of, it's almost like data pre-processing in a way, which is bring it all together, tie it together, make it ready. Any thoughts on how to actually make that good? Some of the innovation you guys have made. [00:32:40]Steve: We talk a lot about the context fetching, right? I mean, there's a lot of ways you could answer this question. But, you know, we've spent a lot of time just in this podcast here talking about context fetching. But stuffing the context into the window is, you know, the bin packing problem, right? Because the window is not big enough, and you've got more context than you can fit. You've got a ranker maybe. But what is that context? Is it a function that was returned by an embedding or a graph call or something? Do you need the whole function? Or do you just need, you know, the top part of the function, this expression here, right? You know, so that art, the golf game of trying to, you know, get each piece of context down into its smallest state, possibly even summarized by another model, right, before it even goes to the LLM, becomes this is the game that we're in, yeah? And so, you know, recursive summarization and all the other techniques that you got to use to like stuff stuff into that context window become, you know, critically important. And you have to test them across every configuration of models that you could possibly need. [00:33:32]Beyang: I think data preprocessing is probably the like unsexy, way underappreciated secret to a lot of the cool stuff that people are shipping today. Whether you're doing like RAG or fine tuning or pre-training, like the preprocessing step matters so much because it's basically garbage in, garbage out, right? Like if you're feeding in garbage to the model, then it's going to output garbage. Concretely, you know, for code RAG, if you're not doing some sort of like preprocessing that takes advantage of a parser and is able to like extract the key components of a particular file of code, you know, separate the function signature from the body, from the doc string, what are you even doing? Like that's like table stakes. It opens up so much more possibilities with which you can kind of like tune your system to take advantage of the signals that come from those different parts of the code. Like we've had a tool, you know, since computers were invented that understands the structure of source code to a hundred percent precision. The compiler knows everything there is to know about the code in terms of like structure. Like why would you not want to use that in a system that's trying to generate code, answer questions about code? You shouldn't throw that out the window just because now we have really good, you know, data-driven models that can do other things. [00:34:44]Steve: Yeah. When I called it a data moat, you know, in my cheating post, a lot of people were confused, you know, because data moat sort of sounds like data lake because there's data and water and stuff. I don't know. And so they thought that we were sitting on this giant mountain of data that we had collected, but that's not what our data moat is. It's really a data pre-processing engine that can very quickly and scalably, like basically dissect your entire code base in a very small, fine-grained, you know, semantic unit and then serve it up. Yeah. And so it's really, it's not a data moat. It's a data pre-processing moat, I guess. [00:35:15]Beyang: Yeah. If anything, we're like hypersensitive to customer data privacy requirements. So it's not like we've taken a bunch of private data and like, you know, trained a generally available model. In fact, exactly the opposite. A lot of our customers are choosing Cody over Copilot and other competitors because we have an explicit guarantee that we don't do any of that. And that we've done that from day one. Yeah. I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up. [00:35:52]Alessio: About a year ago, I wrote a post on LLMs for developers. And one of the points I had was maybe the depth of like the DSL. I spent most of my career writing Ruby and I love Ruby. It's so nice to use, but you know, it's not as performant, but it's really easy to read, right? And then you look at other languages, maybe they're faster, but like they're more verbose, you know? And when you think about efficiency of the context window, that actually matters. [00:36:15]Swyx: Yeah. [00:36:15]Alessio: But I haven't really seen a DSL for models, you know? I haven't seen like code being optimized to like be easier to put in a model context. And it seems like your pre-processing is kind of doing that. Do you see in the future, like the way we think about the DSL and APIs and kind of like service interfaces be more focused on being context friendly, where it's like maybe it's harder to read for the human, but like the human is never going to write it anyway. We were talking on the Hacks podcast. There are like some data science things like spin up the spandex, like humans are never going to write again because the models can just do very easily. Yeah, curious to hear your thoughts. [00:36:51]Steve: Well, so DSLs, they involve, you know, writing a grammar and a parser and they're like little languages, right? We do them that way because, you know, we need them to compile and humans need to be able to read them and so on. The LLMs don't need that level of structure. You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything. Maybe it will at some point, right? We've got, you know, tagging of context and things like that that are sort of peeking into DSL territory, right? But your point on do users, you know, do people have to learn DSLs like regular expressions or, you know, pick your favorite, right? XPath. I think you're absolutely right that the LLMs are really, really good at that. And I think you're going to see a lot less of people having to slave away learning these things. They just have to know the broad capabilities and the LLM will take care of the rest. [00:37:42]Swyx: Yeah, I'd agree with that. [00:37:43]Beyang: I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer. And in many cases today, you know, without the benefit of AI cogeneration, like that totally worth it, right? With the benefit of AI cogeneration, I mean, I don't think all DSLs will go away. I think there's still, you know, places where that trade-off is going to be worthwhile. But it's kind of like how much of source code do you think is going to be generated through natural language prompting in the future? Because in a way, like any programming language is just a DSL on top of assembly, right? And so if people can do that, then yeah, like maybe for a large portion of the code [00:38:21]Swyx: that's written, [00:38:21]Beyang: people don't actually have to understand the DSL that is Ruby or Python or basically any other programming language that exists. [00:38:28]Steve: I mean, seriously, do you guys ever write SQL queries now without using a model of some sort? At least a draft. [00:38:34]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:38:36]Steve: And so we have kind of like, you know, past that bridge, right? [00:38:39]Alessio: Yeah, I think like to me, the long-term thing is like, is there ever going to be, you don't actually see the code, you know? It's like, hey, the basic thing is like, hey, I need a function to some two numbers and that's it. I don't need you to generate the code. [00:38:53]Steve: And the following question, do you need the engineer or the paycheck? [00:38:56]Swyx: I mean, right? [00:38:58]Alessio: That's kind of the agent's discussion in a way where like you cannot automate the agents, but like slowly you're getting more of the atomic units of the work kind of like done. I kind of think of it as like, you know, [00:39:09]Beyang: do you need a punch card operator to answer that for you? And so like, I think we're still going to have people in the role of a software engineer, but the portion of time they spend on these kinds of like low-level, tedious tasks versus the higher level, more creative tasks is going to shift. [00:39:23]Steve: No, I haven't used punch cards. [00:39:25]Swyx: Yeah, I've been talking about like, so we kind of made this podcast about the sort of rise of the AI engineer. And like the first step is the AI enhanced engineer. That is that software developer that is no longer doing these routine, boilerplate-y type tasks, because they're just enhanced by tools like yours. So you mentioned OpenCodeGraph. I mean, that is a kind of DSL maybe, and because we're releasing this as you go GA, you hope for other people to take advantage of that? [00:39:52]Beyang: Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints. So I would, you know, comparisons like LSP obviously did this for kind of like standard code intelligence. It's kind of like a lingua franca for providing fine references and codefinition. There's kind of like analogs to that. There might be also analogs to kind of the original OpenAI, kind of like plugins, API. There's all this like context out there that might be useful for an LM-based system to consume. And so at a high level, what we're trying to do is define a common language for context providers to provide context to other tools in the software development lifecycle. Yeah. Do you have any critiques of LSP, by the way, [00:40:42]Swyx: since like this is very much, very close to home? [00:40:45]Steve: One of the authors wrote a really good critique recently. Yeah. I don't think I saw that. Yeah, yeah. LSP could have been better. It just came out a couple of weeks ago. It was a good article. [00:40:54]Beyang: Yeah. I think LSP is great. Like for what it did for the developer ecosystem, it was absolutely fantastic. Like nowadays, like it's much easier now to get code navigation up and running in a bunch of editors by speaking this protocol. I think maybe the interesting question is like looking at the different design decisions comparing LSP basically with Kythe. Because Kythe has more of a... How would you describe it? [00:41:18]Steve: A storage format. [00:41:20]Beyang: I think the critique of LSP from a Kythe point of view would be like with LSP, you don't actually have an actual symbolic model of the code. It's not like LSP models like, hey, this function calls this other function. LSP is all like range-based. Like, hey, your cursor's at line 32, column 1. [00:41:35]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:35]Beyang: And that's the thing you feed into the language server. And then it's like, okay, here's the range that you should jump to if you click on that range. So it kind of is intentionally ignorant of the fact that there's a thing called a reference underneath your cursor, and that's linked to a symbol definition. [00:41:49]Steve: Well, actually, that's the worst example you could have used. You're right. But that's the one thing that it actually did bake in is following references. [00:41:56]Swyx: Sure. [00:41:56]Steve: But it's sort of hardwired. [00:41:58]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:58]Steve: Whereas Kythe attempts to model [00:42:00]Beyang: like all these things explicitly. [00:42:02]Swyx: And so... [00:42:02]Steve: Well, so LSP is a protocol, right? And so Google's internal protocol is gRPC-based. And it's a different approach than LSP. It's basically you make a heavy query to the back end, and you get a lot of data back, and then you render the whole page, you know? So we've looked at LSP, and we think that it's a little long in the tooth, right? I mean, it's a great protocol, lots and lots of support for it. But we need to push into the domain of exposing the intelligence through the protocol. Yeah. [00:42:29]Beyang: And so I would say we've developed a protocol of our own called Skip, which is at a very high level trying to take some of the good ideas from LSP and from Kythe and merge that into a system that in the near term is useful for Sourcegraph, but I think in the long term, we hope will be useful for the ecosystem. Okay, so here's what LSP did well. LSP, by virtue of being like intentionally dumb, dumb in air quotes, because I'm not like ragging on it, allowed language servers developers to kind of like bypass the hard problem of like modeling language semantics precisely. So like if all you want to do is jump to definition, you don't have to come up with like a universally unique naming scheme for each symbol, which is actually quite challenging because you have to think about like, okay, what's the top scope of this name? Is it the source code repository? Is it the package? Does it depend on like what package server you're fetching this from? Like whether it's the public one or the one inside your... Anyways, like naming is hard, right? And by just going from kind of like a location to location based approach, you basically just like throw that out the window. All I care about is jumping definition, just make that work. And you can make that work without having to deal with like all the complex global naming things. The limitation of that approach is that it's harder to build on top of that to build like a true knowledge graph. Like if you actually want a system that says like, okay, here's the web of functions and here's how they reference each other. And I want to incorporate that like semantic model of how the code operates or how the code relates to each other at like a static level. You can't do that with LSP because you have to deal with line ranges. And like concretely the pain point that we found in using LSP for source graph is like in order to do like a find references [00:44:04]Swyx: and then jump definitions, [00:44:04]Beyang: it's like a multi-hop process because like you have to jump to the range and then you have to find the symbol at that range. And it just adds a lot of latency and complexity of these operations where as a human, you're like, well, this thing clearly references this other thing. Why can't you just jump me to that? And I think that's the thing that Kaith does well. But then I think the issue that Kaith has had with adoption is because it is more sophisticated schema, I think. And so there's basically more things that you have to implement to get like a Kaith implementation up and running. I hope I'm not like, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. [00:44:35]Steve: 100%, 100%. Kaith also has a problem, all these systems have the problem, even skip, or at least the way that we implemented the indexers, that they have to integrate with your build system in order to build that knowledge graph, right? Because you have to basically compile the code in a special mode to generate artifacts instead of binaries. And I would say, by the way, earlier I was saying that XREFs were in LSP, but it's actually, I was thinking of LSP plus LSIF. [00:44:58]Swyx: Yeah. That's another. [00:45:01]Steve: Which is actually bad. We can say that it's bad, right? [00:45:04]Steve: It's like skip or Kaith, it's supposed to be sort of a model serialization, you know, for the code graph, but it basically just does what LSP needs, the bare minimum. LSIF is basically if you took LSP [00:45:16]Beyang: and turned that into a serialization format. So like you build an index for language servers to kind of like quickly bootstrap from cold start. But it's a graph model [00:45:23]Steve: with all of the inconvenience of the API without an actual graph. And so, yeah. [00:45:29]Beyang: So like one of the things that we try to do with skip is try to capture the best of both worlds. So like make it easy to write an indexer, make the schema simple, but also model some of the more symbolic characteristics of the code that would allow us to essentially construct this knowledge graph that we can then make useful for both the human developer through SourceGraph and through the AI developer through Cody. [00:45:49]Steve: So anyway, just to finish off the graph comment, we've got a new graph, yeah, that's skip based. We call it BFG internally, right? It's a beautiful something graph. A big friendly graph. [00:46:00]Swyx: A big friendly graph. [00:46:01]Beyang: It's a blazing fast. [00:46:02]Steve: Blazing fast. [00:46:03]Swyx: Blazing fast graph. [00:46:04]Steve: And it is blazing fast, actually. It's really, really interesting. I should probably have to do a blog post about it to walk you through exactly how they're doing it. Oh, please. But it's a very AI-like iterative, you know, experimentation sort of approach. We're building a code graph based on all of our 10 years of knowledge about building code graphs, yeah? But we're building it quickly with zero configuration, and it doesn't have to integrate with your build. And through some magic tricks that we have. And so what just happens when you install the plugin, that it'll be there and indexing your code and providing that knowledge graph in the background without all that build system integration. This is a bit of secret sauce that we haven't really like advertised it very much lately. But I am super excited about it because what they do is they say, all right, you know, let's tackle function parameters today. Cody's not doing a very good job of completing function call arguments or function parameters in the definition, right? Yeah, we generate those thousands of tests, and then we can actually reuse those tests for the AI context as well. So fortunately, things are kind of converging on, we have, you know, half a dozen really, really good context sources, and we mix them all together. So anyway, BFG, you're going to hear more about it probably in the holidays? [00:47:12]Beyang: I think it'll be online for December 14th. We'll probably mention it. BFG is probably not the public name we're going to go with. I think we might call it like Graph Context or something like that. [00:47:20]Steve: We're officially calling it BFG. [00:47:22]Swyx: You heard it here first. [00:47:24]Beyang: BFG is just kind of like the working name. And so the impetus for BFG was like, if you look at like current AI inline code completion tools and the errors that they make, a lot of the errors that they make, even in kind of like the easy, like single line case, are essentially like type errors, right? Like you're trying to complete a function call and it suggests a variable that you defined earlier, but that variable is the wrong type. [00:47:47]Swyx: And that's the sort of thing [00:47:47]Beyang: where it's like a first year, like freshman CS student would not make that error, right? So like, why does the AI make that error? And the reason is, I mean, the AI is just suggesting things that are plausible without the context of the types or any other like broader files in the code. And so the kind of intuition here is like, why don't we just do the basic thing that like any baseline intelligent human developer would do, which is like click jump to definition, click some fine references and pull in that like Graph Context into the context window and then have it generate the completion. So like that's sort of like the MVP of what BFG was. And turns out that works really well. Like you can eliminate a lot of type errors that AI coding tools make just by pulling in that context. Yeah, but the graph is definitely [00:48:32]Steve: our Chomsky side. [00:48:33]Swyx: Yeah, exactly. [00:48:34]Beyang: So like this like Chomsky-Norvig thing, I think pops up in a bunch of differ

Welcome to It Goes Both Ways, the podcast where we explore a range of topics from different perspectives. In this episode, we dive into some unexpected realizations, the power of positive thinking, and the impact of pop culture.Kristy and Steve kick off the episode with a surprising discovery - Kristy has been doing something on a daily basis for nearly 13 years and Steve JUST realized it. Tune in to find out what it is and how it leads to a deeper discussion on how we often overlook the things that are right in front of us.Have you ever caught yourself arguing with someone in your head, only to realize later that it was a complete waste of time? Kristy and Steve delve into why this is a common occurrence and offer some tips on how to break the habit and redirect that energy in a more positive way.Next up, the hosts take a deep dive into personality tests and their pros and cons. While some people swear by them, others argue that they can be limiting and even harmful. Join the conversation to learn more about the nuances of personality tests and why it's important to take them with a grain of salt.Finally, the hosts discuss the impact of popular culture on our lives, specifically the hit TV show Ted Lasso. Steve shares how the show has inspired him to adopt a more positive outlook on life and how it's even changed his behavior.

Welcome to episode 57 of our podcast all about woodworking, making things and having fun. This week Andy Is still MIA no demands for his release have been made by Mr Electrolux Pierre Brings his own new feature, he suffers an epoxy apocalypse !! He's added a new laser to his laser library and we discuss workshop woes!! Steve Just can't stop stroking his love spoon !!! Plus he's on the wagon ! And guess what Steve is off to Sweden next week !!! Will they won't they meet up???? Our Obsessions this Week Steves One of his favourite movies is Rocky IV and he has binge listened a podcast called Finding Drago. The podcast hosts try to find a book called Drago on Mountains We Stand and the mysterious author Tod Noy But all is not as it seems Its soo good so go give it a listen Pierre is obsessed the Movie Where the Crawdads sing following a romantic evening at the movies with his wife. Also Pierre is obsessed with the Youtube channel The Garage Avenger and Justin White as he builds an Ice bath from an old freezer crazy man!! Justin is also on instagram @garageavenger The Three Northern Makers Are Andy @potato_woodworks on instagram and Potato Woodworks on YouTube Andy who is Swiss now lives near Stockholm in Sweden Steve @stevebellcreates on instagram and YouTube at Steve Bell Creates Steve lives in North Yorkshire in the UK Pierre @theswedishmaker on Instagram and The Swedish Maker on YouTube Pierre lives near Gothenburg in Sweden We can be found on instagram @threeNorthernMakers so check us out We also have our own woodworking/makers community on Discord.com We will be releasing a new episode every Sunday morning so please subscribe like and leave a review to hear our humble ramblings about making things and all that life throws at us If you have any questions or comments please email the show at threenorthernmakers@gmail.com

I have had my head down working on some big things since RapidStart CRM growth exploded, and it has been a while since you heard from me. Well, I'm getting back to it with a follow-up chat with Charles Lamanna who recently took over for James Phillips as head of Business Applications for Microsoft. This was my fourth chat with Charles, and it was interesting to back listen to them in order. It really gives you a sense of where Microsoft has come. I managed to catch him in his office having just wrapped up their year-end. Enjoy! If you want to listen to my chats with Charles in order, The first one was October of 2018, the second one was September of 2019, the third one was March of 2020. Transcript Below: Steve: Welcome to the Steve Has a Chat Podcast. Where I call someone out of the blue with a record button on, and hope to have an unscripted conversation about Microsoft business applications. Let's see how it goes. Enjoy. Charles: Hey, this is Charles Lamanna. Steve: Charles. Steve Mordue. How are you doing? Charles: Good. Great to hear from you, Steve. It's been a long time. Steve: It has been a while. Have you got some time for a chat? Charles: For you, anytime. Steve: I appreciate it. Well, I guess the big news for you obviously is putting on the big boy hat, huh? Charles: Yes. I moved up an extra floor in the Advanta building in the Microsoft Campus. Steve: Oh did you? Charles: No, I'm just kidding. But metaphorically speaking at least. Because for folks that don't know, James Phillips leaving in March of this year, I kinda stepped in across all aspects of business applications of Microsoft. And, over the last four years, I've gotten to know the place, know the people, know the business and I'm super excited about the opportunity. And I think the future has never been brighter for business at Microsoft. Steve: Well, I never got the feeling that James held you back, or any of the folks on your team back, but he certainly, we have to give him a lot of credit for really taking this thing to a whole nother level. You weren't here before, I don't think, at least with the business apps, but it was really run by morons before he took over. And he completely turned that thing around and turned it in a whole nother business. And now with you taking over, I'm expecting that to continue. I don't know if there's been some things that have been in your bag that you've wanted to do that James was keeping you from, that you're going to pull out, or if you're just going to continue the path, or what's your thinking now that you've got that gavel? Charles: So definitely not held back. I would say I was super fortunate I worked for James for, I think seven, eight years in total. So I was able to learn a bunch and he was without a doubt, the most supportive manager I've ever had in my career, in terms of both enabling and clearing paths for what we wanted to do from a vision and dreaming perspective. And if it weren't for his support, things like Power Apps would have never gotten off the ground. So, definitely. And I think as we go to the future, we have this amazing foundation. I mean, BizApps is a major and key component and pillar of the Microsoft Cloud. Charles: 10 years ago, you probably would've thought that impossible. Right. To have Dynamics and Power Platform alongside Azure and Office. Now that we're here, let's go take it to the next level. And that's the push, and it's continuing a lot of the great innovation we've already done from a data-first, AI-first approach. Kind of sprinkling in some more collaboration with teams, and really revisiting the end-user experience, the platform, to go increasingly modernize and scale it and make sure that all our components from CRM, to ERP, to Power Platform work great together. Steve: I don't think it could have achieved that status with Dynamics 365 alone. It really took the Power Platform coming into being, I think, to give it the breadth that it needed to be able to get there. With Dynamics 365, we didn't have apps for users to do small things, there was no way it was going to permeate an organization the way the Power Apps do. Charles: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I say two things are interesting. The first is, Power Platform has allowed us to help more users and more customers with business process transformation, which is what BizApps are all about. Right? Steve: Yeah. Charles: How do you make your sales processes better, your financial processes better, and Power Platform really turbocharged that. And that earned us credibility in a lot of those departments and with a lot of those users, and we have some great data about every user who adopts Power Platform is significantly more likely to adopt Dynamics within the next year or two. So we see that symbiosis working in a way which is incredibly customer-friendly, and it helps our business. Second thing is Power Platform has even helped us reimagine parts of the Dynamics apps themselves. And I think probably two of the best examples are the connectors, which are key to the Power Platform. Charles: You see the connectors starting to show up inside all these Dynamics apps, like Customer Insights uses Power Query for data ingestion, or Viva Sales even connects to Salesforce. So there's this amazing interoperability that we have, and also enabling the end-user. Our team built Viva Sales, even though it's not in the Dynamics or Power Platform brand. But it's this idea of having an integrated experience in Office for sellers, built on connectors and built on the Office integration. So it's changed the way you think about some products, and it's also helped us go expand our user base. Steve: Yeah. I saw I was on a PGI call with that yesterday. Very, very cool stuff. At the last PAC meeting, I was supposed to be on the Viva Sales round table, but I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds boring. I think I'm going to go to this one." And I really, I went to the wrong one, I missed a good one. But you know where I am, right? I'm on the platform. Charles: Yep. Steve: And we're exploding. Our app is continuing to grow on the platform as a low-cost simpler alternative to Dynamics 365 for companies that aren't ready for that. And I'm always bugging you about, "Hey, that cool new feature you guys got in the first-party. When are we going to get that at the platform level? So ISVs, and people that are just building their own stuff from scratch, could take advantage of some of the syncs." We got the Outlook app a while ago, we've been getting some things. And when I saw Viva Sales, that was probably my only disappointment was that, at least as I understand it, it's hardwired to Dynamics or hardwired to Salesforce. And I get that trying to play those two against each other, but it's leaving guys like me out in the cold. Charles: Well, I'd say for Viva Sales, the intent is to support any CRM, and I really do mean that generally. And even customers, because there are customers out there that we talked to today who have homegrown CRMs, they coded 15 years ago. They have a whole dev team still working on it. The idea is to support interoperability with your account records, your lead records, your opportunity records, standard pipeline data. And to do that in a way which works through the connector. So today it'll earn V1, it'll only be Dynamics in Salesforce, but the intent is to make that be a general purpose adapter. And you could have a RapidStart CRM connector, which shows up and supports the contacts the way we want, and it would be connectable. That's not going to happen in the next three months, but that's the ambition. Steve: I can call you in four. Charles: I go down and said... What was that, in four Months? Steve: I can call you in four months. Charles: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I might not pick up the phone then in four months, no I'm just kidding. Because even talking about, if people are even on Seibal. We should be able to support them with their sales. Because the idea is, you shouldn't have to transform the seller experience at the same pace that you transform your core CRM, your core system of record, and that's just the way the world's moving. Steve: Well, I love the idea that one of the challenges that CRM has always had, of course, is user adoption. It's one more place they need to go to do something. Outlook app helped with that, getting data into CRM without them having to actually go to it. It seems like yet another way for people to engage with their CRM without actually realizing they're engaging with their CRM. Charles: Exactly. Yeah. It's almost like ambient... Yeah for sure. Sorry. Yeah. I say it's almost like ambient CRM basically. How do you make it so that, instead of the user goes to your CRM, the CRM goes to the user where they are. And the outlook app was the beginnings of that. Some of the Team's integrations we've done are the beginnings of that. And that Viva Sales and that whole Viva idea is how do you elevate it? So anywhere you go, your CRM data is accessible without you having to go to a different user interface. Steve: Very cool. Very cool. So I ask you every time we get on a call about exciting features that are coming up. And in particular, maybe even some features that have launched, that didn't take off the way you thought they would and people are just missing something. We have this problem with our app sometimes, people don't understand and so they don't move forward, and it would be perfect for them. And I'm sure there's lots of features and capabilities that you guys broke a sweat building, and know in your heart, this would be awesome, but people don't seem to be getting that. What's a good example of one of those? Charles: I'd say a product which we've had a capability, where we've had a lot of customer usage from a small number of customers, but very deeply and with huge impact, and we wish were with more customers, is probably Conversation Intelligence. I'm not sure if you've seen that around the Sales app, and where that actually will sit in inside of say a phone call or a meeting and help you generate action items, and summaries, and coaching, and help you understand sentiment, and listening and talk ratio. We've used that internally at Microsoft with great success. So our digital sales reps and the folks who work our phones, they are diehard fans. We have this amazing video we released a couple months ago where we actually went out and interviewed these digital sales reps and their managers, and they just were going on and on about how great it is. Charles: And that's rare where you hear that about a piece of technology for a seller. And we have a few other external customers that have gone through that same journey, where they have a thousand digital reps, 2000 digital reps using this and just in love with it. But it's not as pervasive as we thought it would be at this point. And it's one of those things where, it's a product discovery, and easing people into the capability, because then you got to go out of your way to enable it and configure it. So we're doing work now to simplify it, and make it more accessible to more users. And we're doing that partly through Viva Sales, like conversation intelligence, the major capability of Viva Sales. Charles: And the second thing is also, there's even some culture aspects to it. Because if you use it, it's generating transcripts and recordings of a call, and not everyone's necessarily super comfortable with that. So we're even working about how do you enable more features without having to record the call, and how do you enable capabilities without having to get a transcript? Or how do you make it more natural to say, "Hey, I have a sales co-pilot thing. Are you okay if I enable it?" So there's a lot of interesting things, it's never just a technology problem. It's also a discovery and a, I'd say, change culture management problem. Steve: Yeah. I think that's been the challenge with anything AI really. A lot of people, it seem to think it might be a little too futuristic. They look at the benefit and think that's really cool, but they have no idea how to get it. And AI just in general, doesn't feel that approachable to people, even though in certain cases, it's extremely approachable. You don't have to do anything, it's approaching you. So it's a learning curve, you got to wait until my generation dies off and then you guys will see. Charles: I don't have as myopic of you, as you Steve. But I would say that, the big thing that we have to do is, there's been this evolution of AI where the AI is going to be something that automates away what humans do. And what we've realized is, AI is not even remotely close to being able to do that. But what AI can do, is it can turbocharge the people that use it. And so what we're trying to do is, how do we go expose these AI capabilities in a way where you or anyone else who uses them feels so much more productive. And just like when you first got the ability to use PC or a spreadsheet, you're like, "How did I exist before?" We're hoping we'll get to the point where, once you start using some of these AI assistive capabilities, like we've done in Conversation Intelligence, you'll be like, "How did I ever do a customer call before? And I had to take notes on paper while listening as opposed to having the AI take notes for me?" Yeah, exactly. Steve: I'm terrible about that. I'll be chicken scratching over here while I'm talking to people, and then we get off the phone I look at and I can't understand a word I wrote. Charles: Yeah. I like post-it notes next to my desk where I'm always writing stuff down. Steve: Yeah. So what else cool's coming on the horizon that we should be... That sounds like the Conversational Intelligence has been around. Sounds like Viva Sales is going to really bring that to the masses, so that one's on a path. What are some other new things that we should pay attention to that you're able to talk about? Charles: Yeah. Another one of my favorite things, which we've started to reveal some capabilities going back to last Ignite, so November of 2021. And we have some big announcements planned for the second half of 2022, is the new Contact Center related capabilities inside of Dynamics Customer Service. We have Omnichannel, we announced integrated voice, the Nuance acquisition closed, and the Nuance contact center AI team joined my group to align with customer service and contact center. So there's a lot of really exciting innovation happening there. And I'm really excited about the potential to make it super easy to get a comprehensive customer engagement story, without having to wire up eight different pieces of technology and do a ton of different complex integrations. So that's a place where there's a lot of innovation, there's new capabilities, Omnichannel, Power Virtual Agent, even the same type of conversation intelligence applied to support cases, Nuance for their Gatekeeper, which is identity and authentication verification based on voice and biometrics. Charles: There's a lot of cool stuff in that space. And that's one of the places where so many of the customers we work with are trying to improve the customer experience, and to go reduce costs. So I say that's a place where we've had a lot of exciting announcements over the last six to nine months, and we have a whole bunch more planned for the next six to nine months. So I say, stay tuned. And I won't say more than that to avoid getting in trouble by leaking information. But I just say, that's a place to really pay close attention. Steve: Who knew call centers could be cool? Charles: Yeah, exactly. Who would have thought that I'd be talking about contact centers, and how it's the next generation or next frontier of AI applications in 2022. Steve: Oh, well. Well I do have to thank you guys for the low-code advances you've continued to make in that platform. It actually allowed us to launch a, I think we're the first ones to try this, a new Service as a Subscription. Which includes awesome includes deployment, customization, training, everything except development code, which as you know today in so many of these projects, there's so little, if any of that. Charles: Yeah. Steve: Just a few years ago, if you tried to offer something like this, it really would be little more than a support agreement. But now, we're deploying, we're building, we're customizing, we're building entire things for customers all on a monthly subscription. It's an interesting concept, and hopefully I don't go broke, but... Charles: But you know what, it's fascinating. I literally was talking about this with the Power Platform team this morning. About a future where we'll have more partners who are able to sell a comprehensive service agreement, which includes the cloud hosting licenses, but also some incremental custom development and also ongoing maintenance and support. And it'll be almost this whole new industry, which will push a lot of innovation to the edges of the ecosystem, right? Steve: Yep. Charles: Not built by Microsoft, built by partners who really understand particular regions, particular industries, or particular segments. Like y'all are targeting a space where we're not trying to go take Dynamics, CRM, and go bring it down there. You can go build a world-class experience on top of our platform and provide a very much all-in-one, which exactly serves the needs of that audience and that market. And we can stay focused on building the super horizontal platform, which has great performance, great usability, incredible power, those types of things. Steve: Yeah, it sounds great. I'm glad that we had the same idea you guys did. I'll let you know, in a few months, if it was a smart one. Time will tell. Charles: Yes. Yeah. Steve: So, how are the rest of the team doing? It seems like some folks have moved around a little bit in the org, who's moved where? Charles: Yeah. So one of the big things we've been really focused on the engineering side, for the engineering organization, is bringing together strength from a product perspective that target the same type of user. And for example, we have a new customer experience platform team underneath Lori Lamkin, who leads all of our Dynamic Sales apps. So the Core Sales and Viva Sales, as well as commerce, as well as marketing, as well as customer insights. And it's very much focused on revenue generation, customer journeys, customer experiences. And what's great is by bringing those assets together, we have a great answer for B2B customers, as well as B2C. Like if you want to have self service, no touch eCommerce experience with lightweight telesales, you can do that all with those sets of applications. If you want to do a high relationship, high touch B2B sales process, you can do all of that. You're not going to use commerce, but you're probably going to use customer insights and sales, and maybe a little bit of account-based marketing. So we brought together these things, which are solving similar problems under a single leader. And that way the engineering teams can go back and forth between these different places to finish out full end-to-end customer journeys. And so that's a big area that we've spent a lot of time on, and that's a place where it's really the biggest and fastest growing category for us in the Dynamics 365 application portfolio. So that's one interesting example. Jeff Comstock, folks may know him. He's been around Dynamics 365 for a while. He continues customer service, he leads omnichannel, he's done some of this great expansion around the contact center for us. Ray Smith leads our supply chain team. So that includes things like more supply chain. Steve: So Ray moved? Charles: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He by way of acquisition to SAP then moved. He worked in Dynamic Sales for a bit, where people may have known him. And now the supply chain, and really helping us be this new data driven, AI powered, supply chain story for core supply chain execution. Then we also had some exciting announcements around process advisor and the minor acquisition to help turbocharge that. Or Georg Glantschnig who leads our finance room of the house. And basically we call the room of the house, is the collection of products which focus on serving the CFO and the finance department. And that includes the Suplari acquisition, which we had done a couple years ago, as well as the Core Dynamics, 365 finance, HR, and project operations products. Charles: So you can see how we started to build these critical paths around particular departments and particular lines of businesses with our products. And in addition to that, we also of course have Power Platform to support all of it. So it's amazing to see these things come together and converge. And we've been on this incredible run of innovation around Dynamics. I was counting it earlier this year, 29 different products in Dynamics, and really coalesced around these specific areas where we have a lot of energy, and also very well understood. I'd say synergies between the products that we have. So I'd say exciting times. Very exciting times. Steve: Customers are starting to understand it better also. Business Applications was the same thing for a long time. Then it spent the last five years reinventing itself every month, and new things exploding out of Advanta. And I think a lot of customers were having trouble just keeping up with... It's like little whackamole for them. And it takes a little time for customers to absorb what's happening, and what it's for, or what it does, and then to adopt it. And we're seeing that now. We used to have to go out and promote Power Apps to people who didn't understand what this was, or why it was. And now it's the opposite. They always come to us, looking for Power Apps, looking at those sorts of things. So that understanding seems to have finally permeated down to the customer level. But boy, it took a while. Charles: Yeah. It warms my heart. And I would say one of my favorite books is by Jim Collins, 'Good to great.' I always recommend it to folks on my team to read it. And he talks about this idea of the flywheel. It takes time to get a flywheel spinning, for the first period of time it looks like it's barely moving, but then eventually it's going super fast and it's just a blur. And you need to be consistent, and convicted, and believe in the strategy and the approach. And what's amazing about BizApps is for the last four years, we've been on the same mission, the same vision, the same ambition. And we just spend all the folks in advance at turning that flywheel, turning that flywheel. And it's started to reach that blur phase where it's spinning so fast, you can't even see it. Charles: And this, this all started years and years ago with a ton of work, but we're really at that magical moment where customers know what Power Platform is. Customers know that Microsoft gets customer experience and customer engagement. They know that Microsoft can help them optimize their supply chain. And what the good news is once that thing is going, it really builds upon itself, and I think it'll only continue that momentum further. And my favorite story is, I used to always do these executive briefings at Microsoft where we have executives come in from our customers to Redmond and we have a briefing center. It's very nice. And I would always say, let me talk about Power Apps and low-code. Charles: And everybody gives me a blank stare like, "What the heck is Power Apps? What the heck is low-code?" I go in those meetings now, and people know what Power Apps is, and they know the low-code strategy. And the only question is, "how?". Not, "should I?" Or "if?" "How do I do it with you, Microsoft?" And so different from three years ago. So anyway, so you're exactly right. A long winded answer, but I'd say it's exciting to see all of these things come together, and the benefits of just consistently repeating a message that resonates with customers. Steve: I would say at least three quarters of my customer calls today, they're bringing up right out of the gate, "We don't want any development. We want to do everything low-code, no code." So this is coming from the customer side where we used to have to explain to them what low-code, no code meant. Now they're coming demanding, "I only want low-code, no code." I think that they've come to this realization that, while low-code, no code might not be easy enough for your mom to do, it doesn't require a developer, and code does require developer. And once you've got this little blob of code in your environment, it's a black box for you. And so they don't want any of these black boxes. They want everything to be accessible. Steve: Use your knowledge to build us something complex out of low-code, but then I can still go back in there later and manipulate it, adjust it myself, or our team. So they have absolutely bought into that. And I know we originally, a lot of us partners were concerned early on that this was going to reduce the workload for partners, while our workload is more than it has ever been. Although the developers on the bench don't stay as busy as they used to. We've completely pivoted the team from developer heavy to now, we haven't even got a good title for them. A citizen developer doesn't sound right. We tell customers that, but citizen developers is what we've got so... Charles: This guy we found on the street, or gal found on the street, we just asked them to start building out. But no, it makes sense. There is almost this new role which is, it's not just pure coding expertise, it's technical development concept expertise. But even more importantly is business process and solution expertise. And that fusion of those two skill sets, that's the magic. That's what makes it special, because you understand it. Steve: Yeah. The challenge that we have with this brand new model that we just launched, because, first of all, being the first one out there is not always good because people have no idea what you're talking about. They're trying to compare it to other things. But we've got this little caveat that it's all you can eat, everything, except development code. And trying to define what that is hasn't been easy, and you get these customers coming in, "Oh, we're going to need a lot of customization. So this isn't going to work for us." And so you may need a lot of customizations, but you don't need any "development code". Charles: Yeah. Steve: And getting them to grasp that development code and customization are not synonymous, not even close. Charles: Exactly. Steve: Development code is a very small component today of customization. And once I think that they understand that, then we'll probably see more partners coming into a model like this. Because it makes a lot of sense for customers, makes a lot of sense for partners. Charles: Yeah. And if you go look at building solutions that last a decade, this is to your point, code is this little black box opaque thing, which is hard to maintain over time. If it's no code, low-code, it's easy to open it up and reconfigure as business requirements change. And it's how you build solutions that last. And I think we're getting to the phase with business software where customers are expecting to make long term technology bets. You're not going to replace your CRM every five years from now on. It's like building manufacturing plants and warehouses. These are big investments that you need to be able to amortize over a long time, to justify. And so I think to your point, no code doesn't mean no flexibility, no customization, also doesn't mean no agility. It just means you're doing it in a different way. Couldn't say it better myself. Steve: All right. Cool. Hey, listen, I'm going to let you go. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day here when I caught you, to chat with me about this stuff, always fun talking to you Charles. I'm going to call you in four months and ask you about Viva Sales for the platform. Charles: Sounds good. Sounds good. Steve: I've got you on record there. Charles: So really appreciate you taking the time, giving me a ring, Steve. Hope you have a great rest of the summer. Steve: All right, man. Have a good one. Charles: Yep. You too.  

Here at Thinking OTB we talk a great deal about legacy. What you leave behind for your loved ones is a huge part of working and investing in real estate. Part of what legacy means is not only what you leave behind, but how you leave behind when it's your time to pass on. Life planning is not something that people like to talk about much, but it's a huge deal for those that are going to be settling your affairs when the time comes. Having a plan can bring so much piece of mind not only for your loved ones, but for yourself.   Settling Accounts   Having a life plan is not only for those of us with assets to deal with, but for anyone. The reality is that this is a situation that every one of us is going to have to deal with or leave behind, so having a plan is something that everyone needs to think about no matter what age or state of health you're in. It could be as simple as talking with a financial planner about where you're at and where you'd like to be that can start you on the path to being prepared.   “Who do we want to raise our kids? But who do we want to manage the money? It's two different things.” – Steve   Just these two simple questions can show how complicated a life plan can get, and so needs the necessary amount of time and investment that you would give to any one of the day-to-day tasks that you would normally devote your time to. That's the mindset that we want to stress is needed for thinking about end-of-life planning.   Life planning is just another form of investment that needs to be done by everyone. It's about taking care of those you leave behind and not being a burden on them. Losing a loved one is hard enough without having to untangle business dealings and assets and who is going to be taking care of who. Being truly successful is managing yourself as much as possible so that your loved ones can concentrate on what is important when the time comes that you pass: remembering and mourning.   “My dad had a small life insurance policy, but there was also a lot of debt and a lot of unknowns and a lot of untangling things. It took years to help my mom to get through it but there could have been things done differently to set that up. But what happens is we get so busy in our day to day lives that we don't think about it. And then the worst-case scenario happens somebody passes.” – Steve   “An estate planner is going to go through all the different scenarios, like should you be doing a will? Should you be doing a living trust? All these different things, because what they're going to do is they're going to ask you all the questions.” - Steve   Have a question or topic you'd like us to cover? Send us a message at: Steve's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevedvalentine/ Bernie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bernzpix/   You can find us on all the major Podcast apps: Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, and more! Subscribe to be notified when new episodes are live and leave us a review and 5-star rating to help the show grow!  

Franciscan Spirituality Center920 Market StreetLa Crosse, WI 54601608-791-5295Steve Spilde: Today it is my extreme pleasure to welcome John McHugh. John is a longtime presenter for the Spiritual Direction Preparation Program. He has presented Biblical Spirituality to our participants and does an amazing job. Beyond that, John is a very popular presenter at the Franciscan Spirituality Center. [He is] a wonderful Biblical teacher [and] a wonderful representative of what it means to embody spirituality in life. Welcome, John.John McHugh: Thank you. Steve. It’s good to be here.Steve: Just to say a few things about John, John had a part of his life where he was very involved in ministry. Then for the last 16 years he’s been part of the senior management team for Kwik Trip, who is a big employer in the area surrounding La Crosse, Wisconsin. That area continues to grow, and you’ve been part of that growth. How would you describe your current job?John: Steve, that’s a great question. I have a lot of different things I do, and none of it fits into a single title. Officially, I’m the Director of Public Relations, but on a broader scheme, anything to deal with culture in our company. [That includes] making sure that we live our mission and values as a company. [I] oversee a lot of what happens in our training program. I work with the family members who come into the company, [meaning] the third generation and the grandkids now coming in to work with them. I make sure that they get on the right foot, and I spend a lot of time out in public talking about our culture at Kwik Trip. We’re listed as a top workplace in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa. This last year, even Glassdoor nationally [ranked Kwik Trip] the 79th-best company to work for in the country, which is pretty huge for a small regional company like this. A lot of places want to know how you create that kind of culture, so I’ll go out and give keynotes and addresses about that.Steve: Knowing you, you really do identify what you do as a ministry. How would you draw the parallels between more traditional forms of ministry and what you do in the business world?John: I would say this. As a matter of fact, when Don Zietlow, our CEO and owner, hired me 16 years ago, he knew that I did a lot of public speaking [and] adult education, a lot in the gospels and in religion. Officially, he said, “When I hire you, I’m going to bring you on deck and you’re going to tell the same stories you’ve already told. But sometimes you’re going to take out the name Jesus.” I have former students in mind from Aquinas who are now here at Kwik Trip who say, “I remember when you told that story back at Aquinas, and now you tell it here.” It really is telling the same stories, but in a way that helps all of us realize that no matter where we’re at in life, the gospel is alive and well and keeps us going.

Steve JUST discovered Kanye's Robert Kardashian hologram, we told you so about Cuomo, and Bunny's weekly jokerfied check-in. ----- Patreon: www.patreon.com/pinkocommieslutz Rate us on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2yI1lGW Follow us on Twitter: @pinkocommieslutz Bunny @bunnythemelis Steve @pinkosteve Cover Art and Theme Song by @eviljekyll on Twitter --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/pinkocommieslutz/support

How Land Academy Deal Funding Works (LA 1380) Transcript: Steve: Steve and Jill here. Jill: Hallo. Steve: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. Jill: And I'm Jill. And I am broadcasting from Sunny Southern California. Steve: I'm actually in Sunny Central Scottsdale, Arizona. Today Jill and I talk about how Land Academy Deal Funding works. We get these show topics from our customer service, Volume. And so these are many. Many people were asking about this last week, so we decided to do yet another show on how Deal Funding works. But before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill: Thomas wrote, I've got a couple of thousand mailers out and looking for my first deal. An investor friend of mine who flips houses recommended Blueprint Title. They are an online title company. I called them and they said the only thing they cannot do with land transactions is the new deed and its recording. Isn't that the only thing we really kinda need, but we won't go there. Steve: I put this in here for you. Jill: This is hilarious. Steve: Just when you think it can't get any worse, they say, "Oh no, we can't do the deed." Why would they do that? Jill: I'm gonna start a company like this, it's hilarious. [inaudible 00:01:23] can handle is you give me a check and I'll make sure it gets to them. And then everything else you got to do. Steve: Which is Escrow, that's the definition of Escrow. It's not- Jill: What the heck? Steve: It's classic. I would run away from this. Go ahead. Jill: This is so funny. This made me ask the question. If I close a deal through a conventional title company, like First American, do they take care of the new deed and then the recording? Thanks. Oh yes, heck they do. Oh my goodness. Okay, let's back up right now, everyone. First of all, every real title slash Escrow, it's the same thing, Escrow company out there is online. I'm gonna just say it right now. Everything you can do with a phone call and submitting documents with DocuSign, except for the majority of the states that wanna wet signature on a deed, okay. We got that. So how do you get around that? No big deal, it's called a mobile notary. And they come to your house, they come to your office. If you're the person who's buying it, they'll come to your house, [inaudible 00:02:38] office, whatever they prefer, know that's very, very easy and that's it. So nobody has to walk into a title company and do all that anymore, it'd be right there. This whole notion of not doing, I can't believe they even call themselves a title company when they say, "I'll take care of the money, but am not gonna put the deed in the recording." For a renter, that's why you're paying them to do the deed. I mean, maybe they're just saying... maybe they're doing money and title policy, but man, that's only getting me 50% of the way there. I need the other 50%. So I don't know who that is, but I would pick up the phone and call somebody else. And then, don't even have to go with a biggie, Thomas. Don't think that you have to, that it's only a first American or something like that can do a big close like that. There's a lot of great mom and pop title companies. I would argue they're even better, 'cause I would argue they care more. That can do the whole thing for you. And what I do is an attorney too by the way. There's a lot of attorneys out there that can do every title, that can do it cheaper and faster. So call around. I have two questions for title people, and this is what I do. How fast can we do it? How much do you cost? And I'm looking for an investor rate, because if this works out between the two of us, as you talking to them, Thomas, you're gonna do ten more maybe this month or this year, 'cause you just blasted that area to try and find someone with a good relationship. And you wanna tell them that. Steve: This is like taking your [inaudible 00:04:24] o...

I'm very excited today and I have a very special guest.   This is somebody who had been an extremely active participant in the community and, honestly, I get excited every time I see you comment.   I'm very, very pumped to have you on today. Please welcome to the show, Tricia Robino. Very excited to have you.   GUEST FROM THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Tricia: Very excited to be here Steve. Thank you so much for having me.   Steve: This is going to be awesome.   A few weeks ago we were looking through and thinking “Now who would be really fun with a cool story to just bring on the show?” And immediately, Coulton was like, “Oh my gosh, you got to get Tricia on”.   That's exactly when I reached out and I’m so glad you that you could make it. Thanks for jumping on.   Tricia: Yeah, no problem.   Steve: Just so everyone gets to know you a little bit. How did you get started in MLM?   Tricia: Well that's a great story, because I'm in the wellness space just like you.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: Just after my son was born, which was 40 years ago, I got out of shape. So I was trying to get back into shape.   I got really super hooked on the wellness industry. I was an aerobic instructor and then owned a health club.   What it came down to was, I really wanted to make money doing what I loved and so I thought it was going to be the health club.   I really wanted success and I really wanted to feel good and have people think I was doing something really, really cool. Because all my brothers and sisters, they're like CFOs, they're lawyers, they're dentists.   Steve: You have an unofficial bar, right?   Tricia: Exactly. I had this bar and so believe it or not, owning a health club was cool. And I actually was able to make money. At one point I made $10,000 a month.   Steve: Cool.   HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU’RE MAKING IT AS AN ENTREPRENEUR? Tricia: That's kind of how I was making it. But what happened was ... Have you ever heard of this big company called 24 Hour Fitness?   Steve: No.   Tricia: Yeah, right. They opened in San Leandro. I'm in Oakland, CA.   They opened 20 minutes away from me. It exploded and this space was very difficult to make money in. I mean it was super, super hard.   And so, I went bankrupt.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: So like all good entrepreneurs, I filed my bankruptcy.   I had to do it, but it was pretty devastating.   It was embarrassing to be quite honest with you.   My son looked up to me, I was embarrassed. It pretty much devastated my life at that point. I got a divorce. I mean it was just like that whole story of everything just fell apart.   I had $267 in the bank. My dad had to bail me out. I had to write that letter to my sisters to see who could help me.   I mean it was just really, really, rally hard.   Steve: Oh man.   Tricia: But I didn't want to get a job. I quickly realized I loved working for myself and I did not want to get a job.   I would've rather lived underneath the bridge than have to work for somebody else.   But I needed to make money... And what did I know how to do? I knew how to grow a business. I had been growing business for 13 years.   So I worked as a business consultant. Which is another way of saying, “You know I don't have a job, I don't have anything, so I'm just going to help other people make money.”   I remember the day when I picked up this book called “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.”   DO YOU LOVE WORKING FOR YOURSELF?   Steve: It's the gateway drug for every entrepreneur.   Tricia: So I read this book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" in about three trips to the bathroom. It was like I was glued to this.   I realized that I wasn't a gym owner. I wasn't an aerobic instructor, I was this thing called an entrepreneur.   And that's when it really sunk in that I was an entrepreneur and he talked about network marketing.   I'm one of those guys that literally started looking for a network marketing company. I've been in network marketing of 16 years.   I was looking for a network marketing company. I literally recruited my upline to get me into the business, and I was 53.   So side note, I did not quit my job, which is what I always recommend to everybody. Get excited, but don't quit your job yet.   So I didn't quit my job, I kept working, but I was just in love with the whole industry. I jumped in, hook line and sinker, worked part-time with a full-time attitude.   Back then we had this incredible system, which was about lead generation, and I really loved that system because we called it scrubbing the leads.   We would have a lead come in, but we had a system where they would get more and more interest. They had to jump through hoops to get to the next level, so I knew that they weren't just sort of kind of interested.   Steve: This person's actually serious versus kind of dabbling.   Tricia: Because of the system, I was able to move up our marketing plan really fast. Everybody has different levels in their marketing plan. In 4 years, I got to the 1%.   BUILDING A SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY   Steve: Oh wow.   Tricia: Yeah, through a system.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: Which was great. It was fast, but really slow at the beginning.   Steve: Sure, it felt slow I'm sure.   Tricia: It felt like I couldn't get to making even $3,000 a month.   I couldn't get to that point where I really felt like I could quit my job and literally I didn't quit my job at the very beginning because I knew that I wanted to advertise.   I've always believed in advertising, I've been an entrepreneur for a very long time. So I wanted to make sure I had some wiggle room right there.   I was finally able to quit my job. We do a lot of personal development. I hear you, I was at Funnel Hacking Live 2 times, I've been to Offer Mind, I've been to Boise to see you, so I know that you're in to that too.   Jim Rome worked with our company for years and years. So I had a chance to meet him, get to know him, spend some weekends with him.   Personal development was another reason that I moved up the marketing plan. Then things changed, right?   I've been in this industry for 16 years. Here's the thing, if you don't expect it to change, you're not going to do very well.   I change all the time, right? And to be honest, that's what makes it fun for me.   Steve: Yeah, me too.   AN ENTREPRENEUR LOVES CHANGE   Tricia: If you're an entrepreneur and you like change, then just keep your eyes open. So that's what I've always done.   Our model kind of changed to the point where it was more face to face. People were starting to do lots of fit camps and opening up nutrition clubs and things like that. You know I did it, but I didn't love it.   Steve: Yeah, it bothered you a little.   Tricia: I do networking marketing because I like the time freedom, I want to work from home. I travel, that's one of my passions.   You know, I really want to be able to travel and do the things that I love. It's a great model, it really works, I love face to face.   I was hearing people from the stage, all these different network marketing companies and doing so much with social media and I'm like “This really sounds like fun.”   About a year and a half ago, I got my first ClickFunnels account and that's where I heard about you. When we had the round tables and I was trying to squeeze my way into your table.   Steve: That's right as I was standing on the chair screaming?   START WORKING ON YOUR BUSINESS!   Tricia: Yeah. But I still liked you anyway. I was like "He's my kind of guy."   I started to become acquainted with you and then as soon as I got home, I think pretty much after I got home is when you launched Secret MLM Hacks. And I was like, "Well, of course I've got to sign up for that”.   We completed the whole thing. I mean we were just like "Okay, let's do this, and we've got to do this, and he's closing it down." I can't remember what it was but-   I just have notes, upon notes, upon notes. I did it ALL.   Steve: So what's happened in your business as a result of it?   Tricia: As a result of it, I have been able to really focus on completely working online.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: And I've been able to duplicate it too. I published a book and right now, I'm just finishing up. I hacked your funnel.   Steve: Good.   Tricia: So I'm just finishing up. The FREE plus shipping.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: It's actually done. I have to just do the final touches.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: I hooked up with Anchor and started a podcast.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: I've done a 5 day workshop with a quiz and there’s a funnel for that.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: I have almost finished a membership funnel. I'm working on my application funnel. I haven't completed that yet, but I have started on it. I'm doing monthly events.   WORKING ON YOUR SALES FUNNELS   Steve: For your team and such or is it for bringing in new people?   Tricia: It's to bring in new people.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: I'm doing 5 day wellness workshops.   Steve: Oh cool.   Tricia: In fact this one workshop, this one group, I have over 1,100 people in it right  now.   Steve: Wow! Holy cow.   Tricia: Yeah, so that's good. I've been creating a community of brand new people. I have a community of product users. I've got a community of people who are moving up the marketing plan. I have a community of my builders. I’ve really focused and really heard you when you say it's not the WHAT, it's the WHO.   Steve: Yeah.   Tricia: So I've really been working on my WHO.   Steve: That's so cool. You've got more audiences that this has let you bring in. You can train them more. Has it helped you sell more product so far?   Tricia: Yeah, absolutely. But within the framework of how we can sell the product I have, that's going to be part of my free plus shipping for my book.   Steve: Nice. Yeah, okay. I love that. Put something in the front, you sell it all on the back anyway. Totally love that.   Tricia: Exactly. Yeah, so that's worked out really, really good.   ARE YOU NERVOUS ABOUT BECOMING AN ENTREPRENEUR?   Steve: What would you say to somebody then who's getting nervous about trying this?   This whole concept of the internet plus MLM is so foreign to so many people. What would you say to somebody who's nervous about that?   Tricia: About the internet?   Steve: Yeah, just about using it. All the tools we have, so many people are so scared of it.   Tricia: Here's my note. It works for me, and I've been able to validate those numbers and that is one of the things that I'm keeping close track of.   How much money do I spend, how many leads do I get, how many people go through my funnel, what's the end result, how much money am I making? We have people moving like they've never moved before, using social media tools.   Steve: Right, they're on fire.   Tricia: They're on fire and it's the next... I'm not even going to say it's the next new thing, it IS the new thing.   I would do it because you get everybody prepped for it. It's like you have to create the attractive character. People don't know that they're cool, you know? I didn't know I was cool until I put on my green glasses, was just myself, no apologies for anything, just have fun.   Steve: What does your upline think about all of this?   Tricia: I've got real supportive people in my organization. In fact, the person that first mentioned ClickFunnels to me, was my upline.   Steve: Oh that's awesome.   Tricia: That's never been an issue at all.   THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF ENTREPRENEUR   Steve: That's so awesome.   One of the big things that I hear from people when I'm talking to them about this or they're starting to see what it is that I'm proposing and they're like “What, this is so foreign.”   One of the biggest things that I hear from people, and you just kind of touched on it a little bit but they say things like “Steven, I'm nothing like you. I don't want to have to be like you in order to have success in this.”   I'm like “Whoa, that's not at all how this works, you know. You get to be you, LOUDLY"   Tricia: Not only do my clients need different personality types, and they are going to be different personality types, we all enhance each other.   In network marketing we work together and so therefore, if you have members of your team in there with new people, then the new people have everybody's story.   THE MOST VALUABLE PART OF THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Steve: What would you say has been the most valuable thing so far that you've gotten from the program?   That you've actually been able to use and apply, and you're like, "Wow, that was good."   Tricia: I hear you in my head all the time. But this is something that you said at Funnel Hackers, because I was just in Nashville.   You said at Funnel Hackers and that is, “Just do the next thing.”   Just take the next step, and that is how you have set up the whole training. Especially after I have completed the program, it's like “Okay, just build one funnel. Make it good.”   Right? Then the next step is whatever that is. And when I think about “Oh Steve just says just take the next step,” I don't have to get this whole thing figured out. I just have to go to the next step, I have to get this funnel finished and launched.   I have to do the marketing for it. That's the next step and I think for me, especially as an entrepreneur, I just want to gobble up the whole horse, I think that's the thing that I hear you saying in my head the most.   Steve: Absolutely, well thank you so much and we really appreciate it. Any parting words?   Tricia: I do have one parting word, because we can make up stories about being too old or we can make up stories about not understanding technology and I just want people to understand that's just a story.   It's just a learning curve and there's so many people that are out there to help you, just dive in. Just dive in and have fun. That's the big thing, you know? Make it a fun experience.   JOIN THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   I know it's tough to find people to pitch after your warm market dries up, right?   That moment when you finally run out of family and friends to pitch. I don't see many up lines teaching legitimate lead strategies today.   After years of being a lead funnel builder online I got sick of the garbage strategies most MLMs have been teaching their recruits for decades.   Whether you simply want more leads to pitch or an automated MLM funnel, head over to secretmlmhacks.com and join the next FREE training.   There you're gonna learn the hidden revenue model that only the top MLMers have been using to get paid regardless if you join them.   Learn the 3-step system I use to auto recruit my downline of big producers WITHOUT friends or family even knowing that I'm in MLM.   If you want to do the same for yourself, head over to secretmlmhacks.com.   Again that’s secretmlmhacks.com.  

Click Above To Listen Or Listen In iTunes Steve: All right everyone. I've got a very special guest on with me today. I'm very excited for this actually. I've been looking forward to this interview for a long time. Guys I want to introduce to you Jaime Smith. He's done amazing things with the ClickFunnels community. Jaime thanks so much for joining. I want to talk a little bit about how you got your start. All the cool things you've done. First of all I want you to know, actually Russell and I were talking about you because you've done so many things for the ClickFunnels community. You remember that video, you may not, but I put a video out and I was like hey Russell and I we're looking for some help for some poor things and things like that and you reached out. We were going through this list of people. Over and over and over again I was like, Jaime's the man. Jaime would be the man, Jaime would be the man. The only reason why, I don't know ... He's so good. I think he'll get bored. Jaime: Ah. Well thanks man I appreciate that. I appreciate that, yeah. Steve: Yeah and Russell's saying, hey he's done so much for the ClickFunnels community himself. It's not like we're asking you to, it's not like we've done anything to do extra promotion for you or anything. It's like everyday I see a new thing that you've done for the ClickFunnels community, for all of us non coders and it just blows our minds. It's like black magic to me man. I have no idea how you do what you do. Jaime: Yeah well lots of years of kind of doing some intense stuff. Honestly my background is as a senior web app developer. I've been working since 2000. Started out, my first project was actually an enterprise level project with Eli Lilly. I've always been the cowboy coder writing enterprise level applications. Always web based. I've done desktop software and stuff like that but that's not as much fun for me. After doing enough of those things you learn how the back ends work. I'm able to take some of that experience and see how the front end works, and get into the ClickFunnels admin area and see okay, I can kind of tell from the URLs and the functions that are available how the backend pieces are pulled together. That allows me to say, okay well if the backend works this way, then if I add this to the front end, then the backend should support it. Just having that visibility into both sides of how things work makes it easy for me to go in and know that if I can customize the front end a little bit it'll work with the backend. Also just being able to inspect the code that's being spit out by the ClickFunnels tools on the front end, and add some java script into them that just adds a little functionality or a little style or whatever. It just kinda comes easy so I figure, hey if I can throw some of that stuff out and help people out then that's, I would love somebody to be able to come in and help with all the things that I am not the greatest at. Steve: Yeah. I cannot even imagine what those topics could be because I mean, you've been in the ClickFunnels community for a long time and I have also. I got in right after beta. I was building stuff and it was fantastic, my buddy and I are making money together. All of a sudden I started seeing, whose Jaime Smith? You keep putting things like, hey anyone want some cool CSS that's going to make, yada yada yada. I was like, holy crap I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Then like the next day it'd be like, hey someone else want some java script I wrote that's going to make you're whole funnel act like an e-commerce store. I was like, what? Oh my gosh. It was like over, and over, and over again. I got to tell you, that's one of my biggest regrets. I went to college for, I finished with a marketing degree but before that I was actually a CIT computer degree. I remember I went through one semester, I was sitting in one of my coding classes. Maybe it was the teacher, but I cannot blame it on that with a clear conscience. I don't know what it was but sitting and coding, I remember getting out of there and going, I'm never going to sit in front of a computer all day.  Jaime: Yeah, and now you're doing it. Steve: It's the one thing that I wish I had learned, was how to actually program. My dad was an executive at IBM. He and I, we ran like a 120 port network inside of our house that we built together, running through the walls. We did so much stuff together and it was awesome. I just have never learned the guts of it. I'm totally jealous of your skills man, it's fantastic. Jaime: Yeah, well. Yeah it's a blessing and a curse sometimes because I see some of these questions come up like, hey can I do this? Then it's like that itch that you just have to scratch. Okay I'm not going to rest until I figure out how to do this thing. It's a lot of fun. I think, my background's kind of weird. I don't know what it is. I feel, I was talking with somebody actually I was just out in Boise here last week for an event there with Russell. The Ignite Inner Circle Program. That was great. While I was there I was talking to somebody and just talking about my background. I just felt like, what I said was I feel like my biggest blessing, and I hate to say my genius because I'm not trying to brag by any stretch of the imagination- Steve: Go for it. We'd love to hear it. Jaime: I feel like my biggest area of genius is my ability to extrapolate and apply a concept I've learned in one area to a completely different area. I started when I was young doing mechanical stuff. My family actually owned a hardware store and my dad did a lot of installations, hot water heaters, central air units, and stuff like that. 10 years old I'm installing furnaces, and air conditioning units, and hot water heaters, and running electricity, and doing all this mechanical stuff. Not really any training it was just, hey your dad needs a hand so I'll just watch what he does, he'll tell me what to do, and I'll go do it. I kind of took that and then when I graduated high school I actually went into the army and I was a helicopter mechanic for 4 years. I was able to take some of those mechanical skills and apply it and look at the engineering of things. I always felt like I could tear stuff down and reverse engineer how it worked. Then I've been able to take some of that reverse engineering skill and apply it to technology. That's what programming has been for me. Honestly I've only had a few actual college level classes in programming. Most everything is all self taught. Steve: You're kidding me? Jaime: No. Steve: Oh my gosh. Jaime: Over 16 years of reverse engineering other stuff that's already working or going in and saying, it's always kind of been on the job. Hey, you need to learn this. Okay great let me go get a reference manual and I'll figure it out. I've just been really blessed to be thrown into just a bunch of different projects in different languages, and different platforms, and used in different frameworks and technologies. Being able to say okay, these things all kind of have similar ways of doing things. If I can take the concept from one and apply it into another then it's going to get me to a solution that much faster- Steve: So, I'm sorry about that. Jaime: Oh no. That's what I've been able to do with ClickFunnels is be able to say, okay I know I can take the concepts I've learned from the backend programming and from the front end programming, I can combine them with this online marketing which I've also been a student of for the last going on 12 years now. Just come up with these creative solutions to these problems that people are having, and problems that I'm having. Steve: It's interesting because I was thinking about that. If you can step back and look at abstractly what you're doing with the funnel. I mean that's got to tie directly into what you did growing up. Jaime: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I've been extremely blessed to have some fantastic opportunities to get experience that a lot of people just don't get. Sometimes I have to remind myself, or I have people tell me this, that because I see what I do as just really easy, but then I'm like anybody could do it. In fact I've said that many, many times, I could train a monkey to do what I do. It's not that hard, it's just once you know the concept it really is pretty easy. It's just for me I've been exposed. I don't feel like I've got any special genius or any special intelligence ability that other people don't have. It's just I've had the great opportunity to be exposed to experiences where I've had to make a project work. It's just experiences that the majority of people don't get an opportunity for. I feel truly blessed to be able to do what I do. Steve: Well I think it's fantastic. For those of you who are listening and don't know, what Jaime does is he'll look at what everyone's doing in ClickFunnels and watch the community and the Facebook page, see where people who don't know how to code are running into these walls. He'll just come out there and, hey here's a free tool that I just built, or drop this piece of code in and now ClickFunnels totally changes. I mean it's amazing. It's incredible what you do. Jaime: Thanks man, thanks. Steve: I mean you're obviously working on CF Pro Tools. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. I also want to ask, before we get into that, I don't know. It's a little weird to bring this up. Tell us about your failures you know. I want to know a little bit more, behind every success story there's always like this struggle I feel like. In marketing we tend to take whatever the best case study that we were able to get and market that only. Or whatever the best results are and market that only. The other 90% are like pure crap or it's just this massive, massive struggle. I was just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about, she the struggle that produces CF Pro Tools. What led you to get there? Jaime: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's plenty of meat there to chew on. Steve: Sure, there always is. Anytime anyone talks, oh yeah there's lots of that. Jaime: Oh yeah. Yeah. Like I said I've really been studying online marketing for the last 12 years of so. Really I've had this passion for hey, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I guess that's the thing. I never wanted to be the guy that just had a job and just worked my job and just did my thing. Now every once in a while I look back and say, man I worked in a factory building cars for a while. That was kind of mind numbingly nice. It's like hard work, but every once in a while I'd like to go back and just feel like okay I can just do my job and go home and not have to worry about anything afterwards. Steve: Turn the brain off, yeah. Jaime: Yeah switch off and not be constantly on the clock. Then I remember that no, I hated that gig too. It seems like I always do that in the spring time. Be like, oh it'd be awesome to have an outside job putting on roofs or something like that. Then come August in Indiana when it's 95 and 100% humidity I'm like oh yeah now I remember why I don't do that. I wouldn't last very long. Yeah. I've been studying online marketing for a lot of years. Really felt like okay this is my opportunity this is where I can actually make some thing happen and really take a business, I always thought with minimal effort and the right scale I can just make this huge business and live that internet dream, laptop beach lifestyle. It's 12 years later and I'm still not on the beach, and I'm still not working at my laptop. Yeah. I started, and honestly I've looked at so many things, and I'll say probably the biggest failure I've had in, and a lot of people talk about this but it's so easy to get sucked into, is the shiny object syndrome. That's biggest struggle. I'm finally learning after 12 years of doing this that that's been my biggest downfall, is constantly being attracted and constantly jumping ship and moving to the next thing. I've done pretty much everything you can think of in internet marketing, I've tried it. Starting out with running niche ad sense sites and building those up. I had a little bit of success there. I made a few hundred bucks here and there on different sites. Okay that's great. Then you run into a little struggle and you're like oh that doesn't work and you just dump it, you move onto the next thing. In the process of doing that I actually built out, again using my technology background and as a developer I actually built a product around taking PLR content that I was getting in a monthly membership where you'd get 1,000 articles a month or whatever in different niches for free. Go and build your website around these, throw ad sense on it, you'll make money. Great. I did that and I thought okay, I'm going through and doing this and there's got to be a quicker, better way to build out a network of sites. I figured out a way to take word press, and this is back like word press 2 days, to use word press what was called multi user or word press MU, and use that to build a network of these niche sites, just on different sub domains. I figured out how to do that and I actually was in a community similar to the Facebook group, specific to this product, had about 1,000 members or so. Kind of the same thing I've been able to do with CF Pro Tools, just jump into the community, help out as much as I can, show people what I'm doing and how to use the technology to build these sites up more quickly, and actually build a training program. Like 28 videos on how to use word press, and how to use the network, and how to drive traffic, and how to do all this stuff. Put that together and just poured a ton of time into it. That was probably my first little success where I sold like $1,700 worth of this course. I'm like okay awesome, this is going. Then word press came out and changed their version. I'm like I do not want to go back and re-record 28 videos. Steve: 28 videos, yeah. Jaime: It was like 6 hours worth of video training. That's immense, I'm like no. I'm not going to keep up with this. I just kind of dumped it, moved onto the next thing. I probably could have been successful with that if I would have stuck with it. It got hard, there's surely some other shiny object that's easier to do over here, and jumped ship. I just did that repeatedly for the last 10-12 years. Have learned the hard lesson that that just doesn't work. Anyone of the things that you pick you can be successful at online. There's very few things that if you don't ... There's been plenty of plans laid out that will work if you apply the right leverage. I think you just have to pick one and go with it. For me the latest has bee CF Pro Tools and jumping into a community where we've got, what 20,000 plus active members now inside the ClickFunnels Facebook group. We've got ClickFunnels users I think, I heard recently is right around 20,000 active users of ClickFunnels right now. Steve: Yep. Jaime: It's a huge community, so it's a huge opportunity and that's great. That's where my focus has been. I actually enjoy it. I posted on the group not too long ago that ClickFunnels makes what I do easy, the community makes it fun. I do enjoy it. Steve: Yeah. I completely agree with that. I want to go back just real quick to something you mentioned. You just touched on it, and I'm learning this lesson, I don't know I fee like any of us who do anything entrepreneurial we all have learned this less every 6 months. It comes in a wave. The shiny object syndrome. It's huge. What's funny is in college I 100% had shiny object syndrome but I kept telling my wife, no, no I'm just at an age of exploration. I'm going around all over the place like, yeah I'm doing real estate here, writing e-books there, door to door sales here, I was all over the place. It was good for learning, but after a while you have got to drop an anchor and you have to learn to say no. I'm laughing that you brought this up because like 3 days ago I was Voxing Russell and I was like hey man, someone approached and they're like hey got this cool thing, wondering if you want to jump in on it in your free time. Which is kind of a joke. Russell's like, you know what man as a friend, stop. You have so many cool things going on already. He's like don't, just as a friend you cannot say no anymore. By the way, he's like if you have time to focus on 2 things it means you're probably not doing enough in number 1. You know what I mean? Jaime: Right. Steve: I thought that was fantastic that he said that. I have not really ever had success in something until I became a mono maniac. You really have to obsess over it. It's the only thing you think about. All your time is put towards it. You don't go home and just like veg out on the couch. After a couple months then something will blow up. Anyways. I thought that was really key and wanted to just point that out. I remember when Russell said that I laid on my bed like for a long time. Just was like, man he just defined the last 4 years of my life. Why was I so close to it, I couldn't see it. It's so obvious when you hear it but you look at it you're like man, what can I simplify and cut it. That's usually not the mentality everyone's taking on. It's more of a, what can I be a beast at and take on more, and more, and more. It's actually very much the opposite of how you do things. Jaime: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. You know when somebody starts a conversation with, hey, as a friend. You know that's probably not going to be what you want to hear sometimes. Steve: No, no, no.  Jaime: That's what you got to like about guys like Russell that can jump in and tell you what you really need to hear, whether it's what you want to hear or not. That's awesome. It's great advice as well. Yeah. Steve: Do you mind bringing us to a little bit of CF Pro Tools? Jaime: Sure. Steve: I'd like to, feel free to go through it. I was wondering also, I probably should have asked you this before but, I mean everyone here obviously we like to hear the numbers. If you wouldn't mind a few things on that or take us through your funnel and kind of how it works. Jaime: Sure. Steve: If that's all right with you. Jaime: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah it really started out, CF Pro Tools was just, as a I thought through, you know I built out a couple of these custom java scripts. The first one somebody had asked for was the ability to add a checkbox directly onto the buy button. Normally we see this check boxes to say hey I agree to the terms and conditions. What somebody was saying was hey, I added this to my page and it's kind of cutting down on my conversion rate. I'd really like to be able to put this checkbox directly on the buy button, that way they're at least looking at the buy button when they have to check it. Maybe that will help with conversions. Maybe it will be a way to fill the bill of requirement for, you know some processors require that hey if you're going to sign somebody up for a trial subscription you need to have somewhere on the page that identifies that they agree that they're signing up for a trial subscription and they're going to be charged again in 30 days. That really was where the need came from. I thought you know [inaudible 00:19:48] they posted in the Facebook group and said, hey is it possible to do this? I just posted back and said hey it's not possible to do it out of the box but I can certainly add some java script that adds a check box to your button. I dug in the easiest way to do that and make it still flexible with the ClickFunnels editor. You can still edit the button text, you can still edit the subtext which is actually what I used for the checkbox agreement. Basically I just said hey we've got this subtext, I can just pre-pen a checkbox to that event. Or to that text. Then you've got a check box. It's like okay cool that works. It just kind of started there. Then a couple of other things come along. I'm like okay now I've got 2 or 3 of these things. To me, if you've ever used AWeber, and you've heard of Jack Born there's AW pro tools which is AWeber pro tools. I thought you know hey, I kind of like that name. I like the product. I've used AWeber and AW pro tools for a long time. I thought you know that's kind of what I'm working on here, is little pieces that I can add to ClickFunnels that don't come out of the box. When I'm registered, CF Pro Tools. I thought well I'll just throw them in a free membership area and give people access. That way I can kind of keep up to date, add new scripts, I can send out emails, and do all that. Now it's a library of 16 different scripts that are in there for free. I've had over the, well I think I was actually just recording a video early this morning, I think I registered my own account in that membership area March 13th. Just prior to funnel hacking live at the end of March this year. I threw it all together and since then I've had a ton of people say, dude why aren't you charging for this? How much can I pay you for this? All kinds of other things. It was just like, no it's always been my goal, I've heard many, many times. I always attribute this to Frank Kern is probably the person that sticks out the most in my mind as saying, "If you want to help somebody you need to show them how you can help them by actually helping them." I take that as kind of, lead with value. Which complete side note, I was able to register the domain name a couple of days ago, leadwithvalue.com. I thought okay that's what I try and live by. Lead with value, show somebody that I can help them by actually helping them. I thought the best way to do that was to get in front of the community. The best way to get in front of the community is by actually helping them do things. The best way I can do that is just throw some stuff out for free and say, hey I'm going to throw this value out there and there's no strings attached. Just jump in and grab it. It's been hugely successful for me. I always feel like if you go into something and you provide value without any expectation of return, that value is actually going to return to you probably 10 times more than you put into it. Steve: 100%. Jaime: Yeah. That's truly been how this has gone for me. It's been great. After doing this for quite a few months now, just providing as much value as I can. I've finally come up with a few scripts like wow this really is like a major game changer. After building up a pretty good sized library I felt like okay now I actually want to make something work with this, make something happen. I've had enough people say hey I want to pay you, I want to pay you, I want to pay you for this. I fell like you've given me all this value I need to pay you. Please make something available to us as a paid product. I thought well I'll just add on a section to my membership that is a VIP club. Basically where I throw these kind of high value scripts in there. People can sign up and I'll just throw monthly scripts of these high value nature into this membership and let people join in. I rolled out the CF Pro Tools VIP club. Through, the first script I threw in there was my CF cart mode script which basically takes ClickFunnels which as you know out of the box, the order form just supports adding 1 product at a time to your order. You can have 3-4 products listed on your order form, but you have a radio button so you can only select 1 of those products to purchase. I thought well hey again looking at the structure of the code on the front end and seeing that hey I notice how some of these variables are named, and just from my experience on the backend I know that okay if it's named this way it probably means we can send multiple values into it. Steve: At the same time, yeah. Jaime: At the same time. I determined that hey I could probably send multiple products into the cart and have them process the order just fine. I tweaked the front end a little bit to change those radio buttons to check boxes. That was the first iteration. I tested my order and hey, guess what it all worked. I was able to send in multiple products to the cart and have them process in a single order, as a single transaction in ClickFunnel. I was like, awesome. Then I had people ask hey is there any way that I can have a quantity selector? I thought, hmm. I wonder if I could combine the 2. I made the CF cart mode which is the combination of, it works probably best for say you're selling t-shirts. You have 4 different sizes, small, medium, large, extra large, and you want people to be able to order more than 1 at a time. The cart mode gives you the ability to have a drop down selector for quantity. The ability to add each of the products individually. You could say, hey I want 2 smalls, 3 larges, and 4 mediums and ClickFunnels will process that on the back end all perfectly. It adds up totals, sends everything across to your payment processor as your total amount and then your order confirmation page shows each of the shirts that were ordered. It works pretty awesome. Steve: I'm blown away that, I mean I have an account with CF Pro Tools. I logged in there and I just could not believe all the stuff that was in there. When you look at what, you know ClickFunnels is what people want as far as like the structure and the ease and stuff like that. Then there's all these little tweaks and features, and customizations people need based on what their business is, or what industry they're in. Yours is like, it's the other side of that man. It's like if you've got CF Pro Tools and you've got ClickFunnels, there's is literally no other product on the planet that is like it. It's pretty amazing. I like that you said that though about the bait. You decided for a long time to give tremendous value up front for free for a long time. I kind of came to that realization, I don't know it was like 6 months ago also. It was like man, everyone wants me to build these funnels constantly. It's like the thing that everyone asks me to do. I was like, well I may as well toss all the ones that I've built and make them free and put them in a site. That's what salesfunnelbroker.com is. You go in there and you can download the entire website, salesfunnelbroker.com just for free. The amount of doors that's opened up is amazing. It's counterintuitive because people are like, whoa I don't know man. I could charge 5 grand for that easily, and it's true. It's like ugh. That's kind of the realization I've had recently. What people would normally pay for, go ahead and make that free and you become this rock star in their life and [inaudible 00:27:27] like crazy. I'll get all these personal messages. I'm sure that you get them too, like man thanks so much, this is helping me, I've sold more because of this, or whatever it is. Anyways. I'm just saying I completely agree with that. That's fantastic. At what point did you decide to start charging for all of that? Jaime: Yeah that really was just in the last few weeks that I opened up the doors on the VIP club. Really what it came down to is okay, I'm still working I hate to say a full time job but I had kind of committed to a 25 hour a week job. That was, you know it's what I've always done so it's what I knew. It's always kind of that foundation, that safety net but I thought, this is only going to get me so far. I really need to ramp up and scale up my income potential. People are asking for this, let me just throw it out there and see what works. Finally I just flipped a switch in my head and said okay I need to make something out there. I just need to do it. This is the other one of my big failures, and that has been perfection. Always worrying about, well I'm not quite ready to put it out yet because it's not perfect. I really need to perfect my message, my sales letter, my report, my whatever. I'm working on a book here and I need to make sure it's perfect before I can roll it out. One motto that I keep reinforcing in myself and I try and share with everybody that I see having the same problem is, in my opinion perfection is the enemy of progress. Steve: Love it. Jaime: When I'm trying to make things perfect it keeps me from actually putting anything out there that could be successful. I really just, I had written several of these scripts, I had tested several things. CF cart mode was one of them that I built and I tested for myself. I thought okay it's not quite 1,000% ready so I'm just going to hold on to it. I thought, you know what, no. I'm just going to throw it out there. I'm going to put a separate section of my membership up and I'm going to put a sales page up and I'm going to put a buy button on it and I'm going to let people go and buy it. With my goal, within a 24 hour period to go from concept to completion. I did that and I turned on, flipped the switch, and 5 days later I was 5 figures. I was like okay. Now we're onto something. Yeah it was very cool. Very cool. Steve: That. Do you mind sharing with us the funnel a little bit? Or at least the way you bring people through? I mean I've been through it it's fantastic but, squeeze page, order form, whatever. Jaime: Sure. Sure. Absolutely, yeah. Really the first iteration was just to kind of capture the traffic that I already had. I had about 700 members inside the free version of CF Pro Tools. My thought was okay I just need to get in front of those people that already know and love me. I hate to say that in a boastful way but- Steve: It's true though, you're a brand, it's fantastic. Jaime: Yeah. I just kind of want to get in front of those people that are already hot prospects, that already know who I am and already know the value of the scripts. It's a pretty simple process. It's just a video that says, hey I'm Jaime I'm with CF Pro Tools. I'm the creator, this is what I've got for you. I've got a membership area where I'm going to be throwing these high value scripts in a monthly basis. I'm also going to be doing monthly share funnels. I'm also going to be doing some video training. If you want to jump in there's a monthly membership or there's a yearly membership. The funnel is basically that. You're signing up to either pay by the month or pay by the year. I kind of really just throw some spaghetti at the wall as far as price. I put a normal price, in my mind I thought o normal price should be around 67 bucks a month. Then my thought on the yearly price actually came from a guy name Rory Mcnally I did a mastermind session with Trey Lowell and Harold a while back and Rory was there. He shared just this absolutely golden nugget that I will share with you. I give 1,000% credit to Rory because this is just brilliant. He said, in fact he won the prize. Trey did a little contest and there were 16 people or so in the room. Everybody got to give their number 1 tip. The prize was one of those new 360 degree cameras. Steve: Oh sweet. Jaime: Just see people doing all these videos. It's like a $500 camera. He said okay the person gets the number 1 tip gets this $500 camera. Rory won that and his tip was this, if you've got a membership area and you can figure out what your average stick rate is. Say your average stick rate is 4 months. People come in, they sign up, they stay for 4 months in your membership and then they bail. Then really what you want to do is offer a yearly plan at just 1 month more than what their monthly was cost wise. Steve: Oh man. Jaime: You just got an extra month of income out of them that you weren't going to get if you just kept charging monthly and to them when they sign up that seems like a huge bargain. You're getting all the money up front that you can now turn around and reinvest in even more advertising to drive even more traffic to that great deal. It's just the quickest way to scale your business dramatically. I thought, that is absolutely brilliant. Steve: That is brilliant. Jaime: Of course I'm just starting this so I have no idea what my average stick rate is but I thought you know what, I'm going to go on the 4 month premise. I'll just say okay if people were to stick for 4 months then lets charge 5. I just did a hey get 12 months for the price of 5 on my yearly plan. I basically wanted to do right around a 50% discount for the launch. For those people who have been around I want to give them the most value and the most love I can by being huge promoters and supporters of CF Pro Tools. I went with at $37 a month initial price that will go up probably around the first of September. Then $197 which is roughly 5 times the monthly to sign up for the year. I just put it all on a single order form, here's you're 2 payment options. I got a couple of buttons, I actually modeled the funnel university- Steve: Oh sweet. Jaime: The funnel [inaudible 00:33:43] .com funnel. That's what I used there. It worked perfectly. I threw that out there and right away had people start signing up, which was great. The one thing is that I did figure out is that, and I actually have changed the price now a little bit for the yearly plan, was because I was getting everybody into the 197 a year. Which was great to come up with a big launch, but as you're running a membership you kind of want to have a little monthly recurring, right? Steve: Yeah you want the continuity there, yeah. Jaime: Exactly. I thought I'm not getting any continuity here. I literally had like 95% of my sales were for the 197 for the year. I thought, well I've got to be able to support admin stuff in each month so I probably ought to make it a little less enticing to go with the yearly. I bumped that price up to 247. That's kind of balanced things out a little bit more. Whereas I'm getting new sign ups no, I'm getting a little better mix of the monthly versus the yearly. Steve: Man that's amazing. Okay. That's fantastic. I've been thinking of that, we have this thing above the door. Actually I can basically see it right now. The ready, fire, aim you know? Jaime: Yeah. Steve: I think that's so cool. You've just done that. You just put it out there, see what happens, and then tweak as you go. People get so stuck doing the other way around, just waiting, and waiting, waiting. Jaime: Yeah. That's huge. I need to get one of those and put it above my door, above my desk as I'm looking at the wall each day with the computer and everything. Yeah. It makes such a huge difference. I mean you're going to get a result. Tony Robbins talks about this, and I've learned over the years that there are no mistakes. There are no failures. There's only results. That result may not be what you want, but it's giving you a result. It's a lesson you can learn from it. Throw it out there and see what you're result is. You just have to have that sensory acuity, to use one of Tony Robbins' words, that sensory acuity to know is this a result I was looking for? If not, what kind of difference can I take out of this that I can make a tweak and maybe move in the right direction. A little 2 degree changes, expand it out and make a huge difference. Just making little shifts, and make little changes, and keep at it. Eventually you'll find the success you just have to get started. Yeah. It's been very cool and I back into that, just to jump back into the funnel a little bit. I did [inaudible 00:36:05] I got the VIP club. Which a lot of people have been signing up for, I was converting about 10%. Which is really what I was looking for. My goal was to get 10% of my existing free members signed up into the paid membership. That's about where we ended up at. I fell like, okay I hit that target. Really that's just a number that I pulled out that I said I feel like I'll bee successful if I could get 10% of people that took something for free to actually pay for a little bit more. Steve: Now are you currently driving traffic as well? Are you buying adds for this? Jaime: I am not. I have not done any traffic generation other than sending emails out to the existing list. Steve: That's amazing. 5 figures, internal launch, and you just crafted it as you went. Jaime: Yeah. Steve: That's awesome. That's awesome. Jaime: Yeah. I was very happy with it. Then the other layer of it is I thought okay, I've got the monthly membership on the front end. I need to have something to offer on the backend. I want to be able to work with people on a little more personal level. What I did was I'm going to create the Platinum club. Everybody wants to be a VIP and everybody wants to feel important. The Platinum club is again another level of exclusivity. I learned this from Russell, everybody wants, well people will pay extra just to feel a little more special. My goal is always to provide more value. The way I can do that is with the Platinum club we offer monthly group coaching calls. Where I'll get on the phone I'm guessing, we haven't actually done the first one yet. It'll be probably coming up in the next week or so. 2, 3, 4 hours. However long it takes to go through, address the training. I'll be doing training on technical topics, and how to use ClickFunnels, and how to integrate different things. We'll be doing these on a monthly basis and go through all that. Answer any questions that come up during that process, and then also do some coaching. Then also do hot seats where if I've got a member that has a funnel that they're working on that they want to review, we'll pick somebody from the group and we'll go through their funnel and help from a technical perspective as well as just a conversion and just strategy perspective so that everybody can benefit. Everybody always learns from seeing somebody else going through the process. Steve: Oh yeah. Jaime: That's a great way to provide some value. Then I'll also be doing some much more in depth training videos on how I work. I've been completely blessed to work with some of the biggest names in the ClickFunnels world at least. I've worked with Liz Benny, I've worked with Trey Lowell, I've worked with Dean Holland, I've worked with Joel Erway. I've worked with all these people so to be able to see what all they're working on, and kind of be involved in that process, and to help them with different aspects of their funnels. It brings great experience. If I can take and share some of that experience with other people, then I would love to be able to do that. This is, the Platinum club's kind of my way to be able to do that. Steve: That's fantastic. I mean that's exciting. It's fun too like when ... I don't know I just feel like there's energy and movement and momentum is such a huge part of this. Cannot wait to launch forever. That's fantastic. Well hey. Okay. I take notes like crazy. I've got a full page of notes going. Jaime: Awesome. Steve: Just to kind of recap. You said some cool stuff. Perfection is the enemy of progress. Jaime: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Steve: That's huge. There's not failures, only results which is so big. Oh that's such a huge lesson. I mean you think about the mental I don't know, I call it mental shelf space. It's like how much your brain can kind of handle at once. I mean think about how much mental shelf space these people dedicate towards making sure they don't fail. Jaime: Right. Steve: It's very, very freeing to realize there aren't any. Anyways people will pay more just to feel special. I 100% see that all the time. Yeah. I'm pretty sure, because I sell my own funnels also like in the ClickFunnels marketplace, and all over. I think a lot of people don't even use the things that they're buying. They just want to feel like they've made progress. Anyways. Jaime: Yep. Steve: That's fantastic. Jaime: Yeah, that's the other thing too. This honestly, I'm guilty of this myself. I definitely know that people do this, a lot of people do this. It's probably the majority of people do this is, they go into something and they have an itch. They need to scratch that itch. As soon as somebody buys your product, they have scratched that itch. A lot of people will never consume your product because just the fact of purchasing it made them progress towards scratching that itch. That was just all they needed. That's what, get that shiny object syndrome because if we don't actually completely get rid of the itch, we just scratch it for a little bit, it's going to come back. Then we figure well this thing that I just kind of scratched the surface with, it kind of got rid of the irritation for a little bit. Now it's back. I'm going to have to try something else and maybe that will finally get rid of the problem. It usually doesn't because we didn't fully scratch it. People will do that. They'll buy your product and not consume it. It's just part of human nature. Steve: Yeah, yeah. Which isn't always a bad thing. Jaime: No. I mean absolutely not. It served well. As long as you do a good job and do it ethically and actually deliver something that could fulfill their need if they actually followed it, then you've done your job. That's another reason why you don't have to worry about being perfect with everything. You just have to get it out there. You've got a lot more chance of helping people actually be successful if you release something versus sitting and working on it constantly. Steve: Well I'm looking at this huge page of notes. I know you just kind of gave it, but I guess what kind of advice would you give here as we end? As you get started, I mean I'm looking at, you have quite the journey. You have quite the story going on here. This is awesome. Jaime: Yeah. yeah. Honestly the biggest advice is just, stick with it. Here's a little story I've shared before. I love this story. This story actually, I heard originally from Joel Osteen. I just thought it was brilliant and just a huge indicator. To me it attaches perfectly to internet marketing. That is, that there was a psychology study done with some apes. These scientists build this enclosed facility and in the center of this enclosed facility they've got this pole. At the top of this pole they've got this big bunch of bananas. Then they put in these 3 monkeys I think. They put in these 3 monkeys into this enclosure and of course monkeys love bananas. This first monkey runs and scurries up the top of the pole to grab this bunch of bananas. As soon as he got to the top the scientist, through the top of the enclosure, squirted him with a hose. He got doused with this bunch of water. Man he shoots back down the pole, never got the bananas. Gets to the bottom, then he's afraid to go back up the pole. Then the next monkey does the same thing. He's like hey I'm going to go up and get these bananas. He runs up to the top of the pole to grab these bananas and they dump this bucket of water on him. Again he gets doused with the water and back down the pole he goes. He's like, I'm not going back up, scared to even get near the pole now. The third monkey starts to make his way up the pole and the other 2 monkeys grab him and pull him down. Steve: Interesting. Jaime: They do this and they think, okay well let's take one of the monkeys out and we'll put a new monkey in. Now they've got a new third monkey. Again this monkey sees this pole, sees the bananas, goes and tries to go up. The other 2 monkeys grab him and pull him down. Then they thought well okay. Let's pull one of the monkeys out, put a new one back in. They do the same thing and this happens again. They do this again, and again, and again to the point where now none of the monkeys that are in the enclosure have ever been doused with the water. For whatever reason it's become inherent that you cannot be successful at getting these bananas and they all will pull each other down. Now nobody will even try to go up and get the bananas. I see that as kind of internet marketing. You get in it sometimes and you will get excited and jazzed about something. You'll go and talk to your friends, or you'll talk to your family, or talk to somebody else online. They'll say ah, that's never going to work. You don't even need to try. I knew a guy that got into that and he failed. You need to just stay down. People are going to pull you down when you think you've got something, you're going to be successful at. You're always going to have people around you that will pull you down, but if you persist, don't let the doubters, don't let the haters pull you down and keep you from being successful. I did that for a long, long time. You talked to people and they said, oh yeah that's crazy. That's a scam. You cannot make money online. It's just not possible. We see all over the world people that are being successful on the things we want to be successful with it. It's absolutely possible. You just have to stick to it. You have to pick the thin, the vehicle you think that's going to give you the success, and stick to it, and do that. You can be successful. That's one of the big things. Don't let the haters drag you down. You can make it to the top and you can grab your banana too. Steve: That's fantastic man, what a great story. I appreciate that. Jaime: No problem. Steve: Man I don't even want to say anything else because I don't want to ruin it. There's a glow right now. The room I'm in is actually a little brighter. Jaime: Awesome. Steve: Hey where should people go to check out your stuff? Jaime: CFProTools.com is just the quickest way, you can get signed up, get into the free membership area there. Once you're inside there's great buttons if you want to get upgraded. If you're not already in the ClickFunnels Facebook group, jump in there. I'm in there all the time so jump in and connect with me there. I'd love to connect with everybody. Steve: Mr. Jaime Smith you have dropped tons of gold and I appreciate that so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Jaime: Awesome man I appreciate it Stephen. Steve: Awesome. Okay I'll talk to you later. Jaime: Take care. Steve: Bye. Jaime: Bye. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answer on the show? Get your free t-shirt when your question gets answered on the live "HeySteve!" show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question.

Steve: Hey, everyone. This is Steve Larsen and welcome to Sales Funnel Radio.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business, using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. (music ends)   Steve: All right you guys. Hey, I am super excited. Today I've got two very special, kind of unique guests on the podcast. As you guys know, a lot of times, I record my own thoughts on things that Russell and I are doing to make marketing awesome, but I like to go and interview other people as well. Today I've got on the show with me, it's Dallin Greenberg and Kristian Cotta. These guys have a pretty awesome unique way for building funnels. Anyways, I want to welcome you. Thanks for joining me.   Dallin: Appreciate it.   Kristian: What up.   Steve: Hey. I actually was thinking about it and Dallin, I don't even remember how we actually met. It wasn't that long ago, was it?   Dallin: Ah, no, not very. Just a couple weeks.   Steve: Just a couple weeks ago.   Kristian: I think Dallin met you the way that him and I kind of joke about he's the black box back alley hacker. He does all the ...   Dallin: If there's someone I want to meet, I find a way.   Kristian: He's the unconventional guy. You won't find his practices in a book or a manual.   Steve: Crap, that makes me a little nervous.   Dallin: Yeah, don't mess ... I told Kristian the other day ...   Kristian: Not black hat, black box.   Steve: Yeah. We can call it whatever we want, right? No, just kidding.   Kristian: Yeah.   Steve: Well, hey thanks for-   Dallin: I told Kristian, the other ... Oh, I'm sorry.   Steve: No, no, you get a say. Thanks for letting me wake you up at the butt crack of dawn and still being willing to share some cool stuff.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: How did you guys start meeting or working with each other?   Kristian: I'll let Dallin take that one.   Dallin: Yeah. I was working on a kind of unique project. We had a guy up in Scottsdale that owns a software. He's the developer. It's a software that does algorithmic stock trading and he was stuck with his marketing. He's a big guy. He's got a lot of stuff going, but anyway, we were trying to help him get some plans going.     I had actually watched Kristian on Periscope. I'd met a lot of guys on Periscope and one day I noticed Kristian was actually in Chandler, which is only a few miles away from me. Like I said, if I see someone, I'm going to find a way to meet him, so I'll comment in his Periscope a few times and little by little, end up getting his contact info. Day later we're in a Starbucks together talking about a plan that we can do, well I was more impressed with Kristian, what he was doing. My partner that I was working on with this marketing plan for this software developer, we were on kind of different pages. I have a background in sales and Kristian's dynamic was a little more my still, so my partner ended up leaving and I ended up asking Kristian, "Hey, is there anything on the side that you're working on or that I think we can do together?"   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Badda bing badda boom. We've ... I feel like it's the perfect love story. We've been hanging out pretty much ever since.   Steve: As long as he says the same thing, I guess that is true, right?   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah, no. The funny thing, Steve, about Dallin is I'd been with ClickFunnels, I was one of the first 50 people that signed up for the beta version of ClickFunnels.   Steve: Wow. You're from the dark ages, Man, that's awesome.   Kristian: Dude. Yeah. We were just talking yesterday because we literally I mean the crazy part ... I'd been so resistant to start using Actionetics.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Until I had to transfer from Infusionsoft to AWeber, AWeber to ActiveCampaign and we're trying to do something and it's like, "Dude, why don't we just use Actionetics?" It's all in here." I'm like, "Fine." We're switching everything over and I needed ... I'd been doing funnels and learning about ... like when I first signed up for ClickFunnels, I didn't know what a funnel was. I wasn't even sure what Russell had explained to me. It just sounded so cool and I was like, "Dude, I'm going to figure this thing out because what he's talking about and the numbers, I'm like, "That's what I need to be doing. That's it." I been doing this for two and a half years, which is kind of a long time in funnel years.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, it is.   Kristian: It's not really that long of a time in regular terms, but I got on Periscope and started kind of talking about my business. At the time, I was trying to grow this fitness, be an online fitness guy.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I'd used funnels to grow an email list of 3,500 people and I got on to Periscope and nobody cared about the fitness. They wanted to know how I was growing my email list and how I was doing my, how was I doing this business.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: Then I kind of became one of the funnel guys on Periscope and was a speaker at the Periscope Summit. I got this notoriety on Periscope for, they call me the King of Funnels. I'm like, "No, guys. I know some really big funnel guys on Periscope." They're like, "No, King of Funnels."   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: It's been like two and a half years of this little journey of learning funnels where it's been ... I'll tell you the three guys I credit everything to are Russell, Todd Brown and [Lo Silva 00:06:09].   Steve: Mmm.   Kristian: I actually had just finished the PCP coaching program with Todd Brown and those guys. Dallin, when he came to me was like, "Dude, this stuff you're talking about is awesome." I said, "Well, let's, I need a guy that gets it. That is driven and ... " that was Dallin. Now we've got this little, little agency we're trying to scale.   Steve: That's awesome, because good partners are hard to find. I remember I started doing this back in college. My buddy and I were driving traffic for Paul Mitchell and we were doing all this stuff. I ended up firing, going through nine different partners. It's cool that you guys found each other, you know what I mean? That's pretty rare just right there.   Kristian: Yeah. If you go back and talk about Dallin's ... there's a couple of key things that I was looking for, because I have an entire course. You love Periscope. I saw some of your Periscopes on YouTube and ...   Steve: Dang it. Man, those were the new days for me.   Kristian: Yeah. I was a speaker at the Periscope Summit in January.   Steve: Cool. Wow.   Kristian: Dallin's helped me develop this program and it's something that we've rolled out in beta and we're going to roll out as a digital product. It's called the Live Video Funnel. I've been working with Todd Brown and the guys at MFA on the entire sequence and the packaging and all that kind of stuff. They're calling Kurt [Malley 00:08:00] speaking at Marketing Funnel Automation Live in October and one of the things they're saying is that the biggest opportunity of 2017 is, they call it the Facebook Live Funnel, but I'm going to let you guys in on a little note. Facebook Live and Periscope don't work the same way. Even though they're both live video, they're different, so Dallin ... I needed somebody to help me with that aspect. I couldn't ... to be honest, you know this Steven,   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I couldn't do all that, every single thing, every single aspect of a funnel.   Steve: No.   Kristian: The script writing, the copy writing, the editing, the videos for the VSL's, the strategy, the email marketing sequences, all the social media.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: What I'm really good, compliments what Dallin's really good at, like I said, his ability to get in on Facebook and recruit people. He has this really strong sense about building a team, which is one of those things that ... we both get along with people, but Dallin's good at that recruitment process. When you want to build and scale something and you need the right people, you need somebody like that.   Steve: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, it's hard to find that stuff. Dallin, you and I, we were talking a little bit about some of the trials you guys went through. Obviously individually you do, but you guys met each other, what have you guys been working on and I guess what was the ... What are some of the issues you guys have run on, I guess, getting to where you are. You know what I mean?     Unspoken stories, you know that where none of us put in our marketing hardly ever unless it's part of our sales letter. "I was in the dumps, but now I'm flying high." These are like, really what kind of issues did you guys run into what you're doing now? What are you doing now, first of all?   Dallin: Well, the majority of our issues actually are from more individual sides. We're actually doing really good with our projects together.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Your typical issues you run in together are testing. That's what funnels are, right, it's testing, testing, testing, testing. There's always that down side until you ... it's just a numbers game, right, until you find something that works. As far as the personal side, because I believe that this kind of runs, this is the fire that's on the inside, the Y factor from what I call it, right. My background's in sales, so I did door-to-door for years. I think, Steven, you've mentioned that you flirted with that a little bit but, I was really good at it.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. That's like, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's one of the best educations I've ever had.   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Steve: I've got a marketing degree and I don't know what I learned from it. You know?   Dallin: Well, that's actually just what I was going to say. I was going to school for business and marketing and be honest, my classes were super redundant. I hated them. I was like, "Man, this is for years I've been planning on doing this and ... " Anyway I got into sales and I did pretty good at it. I just kept going. I ended up doing more recruiting and for six, seven years going out on the summers and taking a team out and helping manage and recruit and sell.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: You learn so much from just talking to people, the sale cycle, funnels, a different type of funnel, right?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Learning how to build value to the point where it doesn't matter what you ask for money, because they love it so much that they're going to buy. It taught me a lot. Well, long story short, I made my transition. I was doing alarms and home automation. I made my transition with this solar boom.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Solar's on fire and fortunately for us, we live in Arizona, one of the sunniest places in the world. Solar was hot, but a lot of stuff was happening politically. A lot of the utilities are trying to shut down solar here just because of different costs. It's a mess. They succeeded and actually the utility ... There's two main utilities in Arizona. They succeeded shutting down solar where I live.     In order for me to get work, I'd have to go an hour a day just to prospect clients, let alone keep my pipelines, my relationships, my contracts, everything going, because they're longer projects. It was really funny because I was really bummed because I was really excited about this transition. It was a huge jump for me because we were so comfortable with what we were doing, making awesome money and it was kind of just this really big leap of faith. Well, last April, fast forward a little bit, last April, our little girl, our daughter, she was four years old. She got diagnosed with leukemia.   Steve: Oh man.   Dallin: When that happened, we literally were going to leave for another summer, two days after she was diagnosed. It was crazy. Everything was just happening and days and days and days sitting in the hospital. I had always wanted to do something online my whole life, but I didn't want to ... I didn't know exactly what was happening. I didn't know where I wanted to put my foot in. I didn't want to mess with inventory and selling one off things. I wanted to do something on a big level. I just didn't know how to do it.     In the hospital you got a lot of time to yourself and so I'd study these things. I'd start looking at different processes. I'd find patterns. I would sign up for everyone's email list, not because I cared about their product. I wanted to see their system. I wanted to study the funnel. I wanted to study the email sequences and I started seeing the patterns.     That's when I kind of got into a lot of this other stuff with Periscope and live stream. I was like, "Man, this is the future. I get it." I think every guy that's doing any sort of digital marketing has a day where they, it kind of clicks and they say, "Holy smokes. I can really ... This is powerful. This is how you can reach a lot of people." What everyone wants to do is have a voice and do something.     I ended up switching my major, going to school for persuasion and negotiations were my sayings. I was a business communication major and I had that emphasis in persuasion and negotiation. Looking back on everything now, it was just perfect. Everything kind of worked out really, really good. I was kind of like, my little side, so we really hit this kind of rock bottom where it was like ... financially we took a massive hit because I wasn't able to go out, drive an hour and do all this kind of stuff. This last year-   Steve: Yeah. You needed to be home. Yeah.   Dallin: This last year has really been an investment of my time and I just kind of feel like I went back to school. I feel like I'm getting way more out of this school than four years of collegiate, right?   Steve: Easily. Man, how's your daughter now? If you don't mind me asking.   Dallin: She's awesome. She's in a maintenance phase right now, got another year left of treatments, but she's ... hair's back and muscles coming back and went back to school. She's in a really, really good spot right now. Appreciate it.   Kristian: She's strong too. You should see her.   Steve: Really?   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: That's amazing.   Dallin: It's from everything that she went through. She got down to, had to relearn to walk, lost all her muscles. She was a little skin and bones and now she's this little muscle ball.   Kristian: Now she's a beast.   Dallin: She's awesome.   Steve: I appreciate you guys sharing that kind of stuff. I mean it's ... because most of the ... I've never interviewed anyone on this who hasn't gone through something crazy, you know. It's not like the path is always clear, either. Usually it isn't.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: There's a lot of times I wake up and come here, I'm like, "I don't even know. I know I got to work on something, but I don't know what." It's like going through this hazy fog, so I appreciate that. Then there's all the personal side and all the things going on. Yeah, I first started getting into this stuff, little bit similar with door-to-door sales. I started looking around going, "What the heck?" We're driving out and there's all these billboards everywhere. I was like, "People call these things ready to buy." I'm knocking on people's doors all day long and they're not wanting to buy it when they wake up. I've got to go convince people who weren't planning on spend money. Like, "How do I do this?" I start putting ads everywhere and that's how I started getting phone sales and stuff. I was like, "There's something to this." Anyways, I-   Dallin: See, that's funny because I was kind of the same person. All the other managers are, "Dallin, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It works."   Steve: DS, yeah.   Dallin: DS, this. I'm like, "No, guys. There is a better way." My motto in everything in life is there is always a better way. I don't care what you say and what's working. Something can be tweaked and something can be done to scale.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.   Kristian: Which is funny, because Russell always says, "You can tell the pioneers because they're lying face down with arrows in their back."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I guess in this case, it wasn't really pioneering. You were trying to find the people laying face down.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: Side stepping all the other people who were already face down because they knocked 400 doors that day, right?   Dallin: Yeah, seriously.   Steve: What are you guys working on right now though? You guys mentioned that there's some awesome things going on. What's your current funnel, if you don't mind talking about that? [inaudible 00:18:19] sounds like, maybe ...   Kristian: Dallin said like perfect timing. I feel like it has been. We joke about being a startup because ultimately we are, to the point that we're even in the process of creating our business plans and our SOP's and all that kind of stuff, so that we can talk to some investors. We have some investors that we're talking to in order to really have the capital that we think we need to be able to scale this thing quickly, instead of Facebook ads tested at $10 a day for 50 weeks.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. The whole reason I got into learning funnels was, you guys talked about door-to-door sales and I have 15 years of commercial real estate experience. I worked with clients like L.A. Fitness and McDonald's. I represented McDonald's for the state of Arizona and Burger King and Taco Bell, so pretty big name companies.     There's a lot of guys that would be happy with that, but the problem I had was that I kept looking at the deal size of what I was doing. It was constantly kind of like this feast or famine situation where you either had a huge check or you had nothing. Literally, nothing. It kind of got to the point where I was like, "Man, there's a better way to do this." Very similar. You guys hear the consistent theme here? There's a better way.     That was kind of the first step of me saying, "I'm going to figure out how to streamline this" so that it wasn't even so much ... I just kept seeing all the guys that were buying the properties doing all these big deals. They weren't even in real estate. They had these other businesses that were generating cash flow and here I am putting these deals together that are making, Dallin and I had this exact conversation, making these guys over a million dollars and they're like, "Oh hey, thanks. Here's 40 grand."   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: What's wrong with this equation? I'm the one that did the whole thing, the financials and all that. I just didn't have the money. That was the start of it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Then you add on top of it that we got into a network marketing company and did really well, but we got stuck right under about 10 grand a month for like 18 months. It turned into another full time job where I was 40, 50 hours a week at every Starbucks from east to west meeting people. I'm like, "This is not working."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Those two combined, I was like, "If I get online, I can figure out how to do both of these. I don't have to pick because I can leverage myself."   Steve: That is kind of the funny thing I learned about ... because I got into an MOM. I went and did exactly what my upline was saying. Got 13 people my first move.   Kristian: Oh, wait, your [inaudible 00:21:42] not duplicatable.   Steve: No. Not at all.   Kristian: I don't care. If I find enough of the right people, it won't have to be.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. My first month, I recruited 13 leeches. Man, they wouldn't do a dang thing unless I was like pushing them in the back with a cattle prod. I was like, "Ah. There's got to be a better way to do this." That's why I took it online and did a lot better. I definitely relate with that.   Kristian: Yeah. The crazy part about this is, like Dallin was saying, he's, shoot, some of the advanced strategies ... Dallin's has this like ... he understands and can see what the outcome is that we're trying to do. He gets it. He gets the whole flow and process of this, of how funnels work. He's been studying them. I just think for a big part, he just needed to connect certain pieces and be able to see what's going on behind the scenes that you can't see online.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We talk about ... the hardest part about knowing how to do funnels is focusing because when you understand it and it clicks and you realize what you can do, it's like .... Someone starts talking you're like, "Oh my God. I know how to make money with that. Oh my God."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's like entrepreneurial ADD exacerbated.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Forget entrepreneurial ADD. This is like an entrepreneurial ADD addiction.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: That's the issue, so we've had to get very focused on okay what's the quickest and most pressing thing at the moment that we can make money with, so that we can reach our long term goals. Like I said, Lo Silva is one of the guys that I credit a lot of what I learned from. There's three little things that I take from them and that's think big, start small, scale fast.   Steve: Interesting. Think big, start small, scale fast.   Kristian: Yeah, that's kind of our little mantra.   Dallin: Yeah. That leads into basically what we're doing now. Our whole plan without getting too much into detail is we have a very, very big picture. Just like a funnel, we have our personal value ladder. Our big picture is more in investments, real estate, things like that. Those are our high tickets. Right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: For the time being, we need to make sure that we couple that with clients, so we have our lead gen system, our agency that's doing multiple things, SCO work and funnels, and social media strategies and management and that way it can help us scale. Our agency essentially fronts the bills and I guess the best way to put it is we want everything that we do to be self-sufficient. If we build something, the entire goal-   Steve: Keep it in hands.   Dallin: Well, yes and no. The entire thing is for that project to sustain itself, so you understand once you get going with your Facebook marketing and such, it gets to the point where you reinvest X amount back into it. Then it lives, it breaths on it's own kind of. It just needs to be monitored, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: If we have this solid balance between us of we have clients coming to us for done-for-you services, that's awesome. That's cash. That keeps us busy. That keeps workers of ours busy. Then in the meantime, if we can couple that with 40, 50% of our other time for in-house projects, because Kristian and I already have entrepreneurial ADD, we're always thinking of ideas. We always have something going on or a lot of times a client that comes in has something that sparks an idea.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: We'll, like you said, we'll keep them in-house and then we funnel them. We get them to the point where they self-sustain and all of a sudden, we have our house projects, our client projects and it's just a very healthy business model. You don't see a lot of very sustainable and scalable models. You know what I mean?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Especially, because I've been with very, very, very big companies with these companies I've sold for and you find ... one of the things I like to do is study patterns and development. I'm really into the business development side of things. You look at the ones that have made it, that have succeeded and that are scaled to the massive, massive billion dollar companies and that's kind of what they do. They make sure they have kind of that happy medium, that solid balance in all these different areas and factors and that's kind of what we're trying to do.     One of the projects we're working on right now is a political campaign funnel. This is just one that's easy to scale and we're just pretty much hacking it and taking advantage events which one of the things coupling social media with funnels is current events, man. That's, they kill. If you can find something trending and good and that has ... that you can milk for a long time, you better believe we're going to find a way to make, pinch money out of it, right.   Steve: Yeah. Isn't it the-   Dallin: I'll let Kristian talk about that.   Steve: The political campaign funnel, is that the one you downloaded I think from Sales Funnel Broker?   Kristian: Ah, no.   Steve: Maybe that was you, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. There's some guy, he downloaded it and came back and he's like, "This is the coolest thing ever." I was like, "Just the share [funnel 00:27:53] free one I got from someone else. Glad you like it."   Kristian: Yeah, no. I got the idea from actually from Funnel ... I got part of the idea from Funnel U. To be honest, as much as we know about funnels, something clicked when I watched Russell's video inside the membership site for the political bridge funnel, where it was like, "I see it." It was that coupled with the, the funnel stacking I got that whole idea of moving them from a front end funnel to a webinar funnel to a high ticket and how you stack those.   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: Bridging and when all the sudden the bridging made sense to me, I said, "Oh my God." Just like what Dallin was talking about here. Ultimately our goal is to, take the same amount of time to do all this work to go and work with somebody and do a commercial real estate transaction, where we're an investor or we're buying the property and people are investing with us, as it does to sell a t-shirt. Just time is time, it's just the size of the value and how you frame your mind around it. We are in the process of growing our agency. The whole point of it is to, if you think of construction companies, really good construction companies constantly have work that's in place to keep their employees working, so that they have the best team, right.   Steve: Mmm. Yeah.   Kristian: That's what they're always talking about is we just have to keep work so we can keep these guys busy. It's not about keeping them busy, but we also want to have the team in place because ultimately when we have our ideas, we can get them shipped quicker.   Steve: Yeah. I've been approached by a few people lately and they're like, "I got these awesome guys. I absolutely love them." He's like, "What work do you have? I just don't want them to go anywhere else." He's like, "I don't care what it is. I just got to bill."   Dallin: That's exactly what it is.   Steve: Yeah, interesting.   Kristian: Yeah. That's the idea, but to get back to what we're doing right now is I got the idea of how Russell explained the political bridge and my dad had ordered 100 t-shirts from my best friend. My best friend did all the screen printing for the Super Bowl in Santa Clara.   Steve: Jeez.   Kristian: He's got one of the largest screen printing companies on the west coast, based here in Phoenix. He has a company very similar to what Trey Lewellen started with Teespring.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: He's set in and he came to us and said, "Hey, why don't you partner with me and just handle the marketing on this." He's talked to me about doing some marketing for them for different aspects of their company. Now we're working together and the whole idea came up I said, "Well, you know what? I think I can do it." Before I was hesitant because I was like, "Well, I'm in the digital media space. I'm selling digital products." That was big hangup was I've got to sell to these entrepreneurs.     Then when this political bridge funnel that Russell talked about when he talked about how you move people from this list to this list, I went, "Oh my God. I can build a list in anything. I can just bridge them." It was a combination of that video inside of Funnel U and my participation in Todd Brown's PCP, Partnership Coaching Program, where they were really working on educational based marketing, and script and copy writing. The confidence level in my own ability to write copy had shifted to where now MFA is outsourcing some of their done-for-you client work to Dallin and I and having me write copy and script for their video sales letters.   Steve: What?   Kristian: Yeah.   Dallin: That's real, man.   Kristian: That tells you the ...   Dallin: We scale fast. Remember that third principle. We scale fast.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I wrote all those down. That's amazing. What's funny is that people don't realize that it literally is the exact same amount of work to do a small company as a big one.     My buddy, I mean as far as building a funnel and things like that, my buddy and I were building an [inaudible 00:32:11]. It was the first funnel I ever built with ClickFunnels and it was a smartphone insurance company and we were ... we got out of that for a lot of reasons, but it was interesting though because I was building it. We put it all out. That's actually when I got into ClickFunnels and it was right after ClickFunnels left beta. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to build this whole thing out before my ClickFunnels trial runs out." I'd never built one and I just killed myself for the next little while. We got it out.     Then this guy approaches me in Florida. He's like, "I need a funnel for some of my ..." He was selling water ionizers or something. I was like, "Oh man. This is a big company. They're already making a couple million a year." I was blown away. I was like, wait, this is the same exact amount of work as it was for the small little startup. Anyways, I thought that was interesting you said that.   Kristian: Yeah. That's what we talk about is that it's easier to work with those bigger companies. They get it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: You work with the smaller companies and they're worried about how much money it's going to cost them. The reality is that the more we put ourselves in a position to work with guys like you and Russell and guys like Todd and Lou Coselino and David Perriera and all them at MFA, they're saying, "Man, why are you, how come you're not charging double and triple?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Dallin and I are sitting here like seriously if they're willing to pay us to write scripts for, to outsource their ad copy to us for some of their client work, what's that say? I mean, we're literally working with, doing work for the guys that are considered the best in the industry.   Steve: That's ... Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: It's just a mindset shift is what it is. That has made it a little easier to have a conversation with someone and say, "You know what? We can take on this project. Here's how much it is."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: They're like, sticker shock. Well, sticker shock. You can go and just have someone build the pages for you, but it's not going to convert. I know that for a fact because copy os what converts, right.   Steve: You know Tyler Jorgensen?   Kristian: You know what, it sounds familiar. I think I-   Steve: He said the same thing to me. He's like, "You charge 10 grand to build a custom funnel?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Why not 15?" I was like, "I don't know. I'd never thought about that before." I thought 10 was kind of the mark. He's like, "No, no, no, no. I'd do 15, 20, 25." I was like, "You've got to be kidding." That is is just a mindset shift. You'll get better people to build for anyways, whatever it is.   Kristian: The big thing for us-   Dallin: True and at the same time ...   Kristian: Yeah, I don't know.   Dallin: You there?   Kristian: Yeah, you cut-   Steve: Kind of lost you there.   Kristian: The big thing for us is really to build a team, Steve, and to have that team in place and be able to have people that focus on all the different areas of the funnels, so that they get really, really good at that. They don't have to know the whole process because that's what I've spent the last two and a half years doing, right.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: They can be part of this and be part of building something and helping these clients and really enjoy what they're doing. Then, like I said, when we have these ideas we can ship them. I know you want to know and your audience probably wants to know what it is that we're doing, which is what got you in. I mentioned my friend, Bryant. He's got this company like Teespring. He's got everything in place to roll this out. We had this idea for how to start doing that. We took advantage of knowing that the campaigns going on right now. I mentioned to you I think my dad bought like 100 Trump t-shirts from him. I was like, "Those are really cool shirts." My dad's like, "Yeah, man You should do this funnel stuff and figure out how to sell these to everyone. Look how crazy everyone is about Trump. Trump's going to kill it." At the time, it was still in the Republican Primaries. I'm like, "Well, I don't want to go build a funnel."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: "Then trump doesn't win the primaries." But as he started pulling away I'm like, "Oh, let's start testing some stuff." We tested one funnel and surprisingly the Facebook campaign got a lot of clicks, but there wasn't a lot of opt-ins and conversions on the funnel. What it did and I think this is one of the biggest skill sets that people who are elite develop versus people that are frustrated and saying this isn't working for me is understanding the information that they're getting and what to do with it. You might not have a winning campaign or a funnel that's making money, but to understand what kind of info you're getting and how to use that to do the next thing is that whole testing process is what separates those that are killing it from those that are getting killed. That first funnel that we did, didn't make money. Not at all.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I mean it lost $1,200. I went to Dallin and I said, "Dude, this is awesome." He's like, "Huh?" I said, "Look at the retargeting list that we got." Then we went and we tweaked this and I said, "What if we change the front end," and at that time Mike Pence had just been named Trump's VP. I'm like, "Who the hell is Mike Pence? I never heard of this guy before." I started asking people, they're like, "No." Unless you're from Indiana, you don't know who Mike Pence is. I go, "Should Trump have picked Mike Pence? Isn't there someone else." I'm like, "Boom. Is there a vice presidential debate in the Republican Party?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We created a little mini survey around is Mike Pence the right one. First of all, you've got all these people that love Trump and they're hardcore republicans and now you're creating an internal debate. Everyone wants to voice their opinion, but they don't want to be judged.   Steve: Yeah. People get pretty intense about that for sure.   Kristian: Yeah. We created a mini survey.   Dallin: Oh yeah.   Kristian: We created a mini survey and we had this retargeting list from the first time and we started running ads. I didn't expect and I don't think Dallin either, that it was going to do as well as it did, but I mean, we had in less than 12 hours, we had 500 email opt-ins.   Steve: What? Oh my gosh.   Kristian: I was like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "Holy crap." I'm like, "What the hell's going on?" Of course the first goal is to try and get the funnel to break even. What we had to do was we were getting so much information so quickly that we really had to be on our toes and make adjustments and modifications. What we figured out through the first week of testing this is there's so much activity on this funnel. Just to give you the stats, after what was Dallin, really 6 days of running the ads, we got 2,600 email subscribers?   Dallin: Five and a half, yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. Five and a half days, we got 2,600 email subscribers.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: K, the funnels not at break even, but here's what I want whoever's listening and whoever wants to take this information understand is the testing process. We figured out between two front end offers-   Steve: Which one was the winner.   Kristian: Which one's working better.   Steve: Yeah. Which one's the awesome one. Yeah.   Kristian: It's still not winning. Our free plus shipping is not, it's not helping us break even. The reason for that is because we're getting so many opt-ins. On a normal free plus shipping, you're not getting as many people clicking on the ads, right.   Steve: Right.   Kristian: Well, we're getting 5, 6 times the amount of people subscribing to the email-   Steve: Would you, in that scenario, would you ever try and get even less people. It'd be counter-intuitive maybe, but I would just start tweaking the free plus shipping, I guess.   Kristian: No. No. Well, no. We can't-   Dallin: The strategy-   Kristian: Yeah. We can't really tweak it because it's not like we're going to offer anything cheaper than free plus shipping. When you start looking at all the different things we can offer, there's not a lot of options, but here's what Dallin and I have figured out is that we think we've created a new funnel. It's not really new in the sense of what you and I and Russell and all these other guys think of.   Steve: True.   Kristian: In terms of Russel and [Daygin Smith 00:41:29] coming up with the black box funnel, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's just soft offer funnel, a front end soft offer. We think that we've come up with what we call a backdoor funnel.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: You get so many people on your email list. You get as many people to take the first offer and you get as many people to take your upsell as possible to figure out how close to break even you can get. If you look at 2,600 people, we go back and look at the numbers, only about 115 of those 2,600 ever saw the offer.   Steve: Huh.   Kristian: Now we have an opportunity to present those people with the offer again. Well, how do you do that in a way that's going to get a lot of people to open the e-     All right. Want me to ...We cut off here at the point of high dramas. As I was mentioning, we got so many email subscribers and such a lower number based on the email subscribers because we didn't expect to have that many, that we still weren't at break even, but we have a ton of people that we can show an offer to. It's a little different obviously because our price points ... We're doing apparel and things like that.   Steve: It's like delaying the offer almost on purpose, right. I mean this is ... awesome.   Kristian: Yeah. Remember, we started this whole thing with a survey, right, something that people were very passionate about, so a lot of polarity in there. They want their opinion-     They also want to know what everyone else thinks, where they fall in line here. We thought, "Oh my God. Somebody that votes, that voices their opinion, takes the time to put a vote in wants to know what the results are." We created a results page that shows them the results and has a special offer that all those people haven't seen. When we send it in the email and we tell them here's the results of the survey, the open rates are and the click through rates are sky high.   Steve: How long are you waiting to actually send them this results page?   Kristian: A couple of days, so-   Steve: Oh really. Wow.   Kristian: Yeah. I mentioned Actionetics. The whole reason that we started doing this is because we wanted to ... since we're having people take a survey and we're offering them this gift, we want to make sure we get as many people that take us up on that gift for taking the time to vote. We have a few of those triggers built in there, "Hey, don't forget to grab your free gift. We noticed you took the time, maybe something happened. Go back here and grab your gift." Then we make sure that everybody sees the results page a couple of days later.   Steve: A couple of days. That definitely is a different style for sure. You don't think that hurts conversions at all?   Kristian: No, I mean. It's a survey, right?   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: The point of high drama and the suspense and all that. We're still testing it, again, like I mentioned earlier that the biggest thing I think that separates those that are successful and those that aren't is to understand the type of information that you get.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We may found out that we need to send the results sooner, but we don't know. We've got to test.   Steve: It's interesting positioning too of you saying, "Hey. It look's like. Thanks for taking it. Here's your results. I don't know if missed this, but just jump back and get that." That's interesting. Like they missed it. They missed the gift.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. "You forgot to grab your gift." That's our first step and then in the email that comes after they've taken the survey, "Hey, we're in the process of tallying up the results. We'll send them to you as they're updated."   Steve: Interesting. It keeps the loop open, basically.   Kristian: Hmm-hmm(affirmative). Exactly. Exactly.   Steve: Man, that's awesome. Well, hey is there a URL that we can go check that out on? I don't want to pollute or dilute any of your stats, so if not that's fine, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. We're just running ads to this right now.   Steve: Good.   Kristian: We're in the process of, like I said, this was just an idea that my dad came up with. I've got to give him credit for the initial idea, but now it's turned into kind of a new business entity, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We're growing this email list and the concepts that Russell talks about the how to bridge funnels and lists and things like that. We're starting to build a list now in that republican, conservative, survivalist category. We're going to take it a step further and build out a home page and start doing some different stuff with it.   Steve: That's interesting. You're going to go through and who's going to keep opening all the emails over and over again, looking at all the stats of all the people around. These are the hyper active political caring people. You know what I mean? That's awesome. That's a really clever way to segment out those people. That's fantastic.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. You never know where your next business entity is going to come from.   Steve: Interesting. Gosh, well, hey, I know we've been on quite a while. Thanks for dropping all the bombs of gold you guys did. I don't know what happened to Dallin, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. He just texted, said thank you. He's trying to get back on, but I know we've got to take the kids to school and stuff, so-   Steve: Awesome. Well, hey man, I appreciate it. Thank you so much and this was awesome.   Kristian: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it, Steve. Love meeting new people that are doing the same thing as us and glad that we can reach more people that are trying to learn how this works and kind of help them understand the process and that if they just stick at it and keep testing. That's really the big thing I think is testing and learning is how you get better at it.   Steve: You're kind of a scientist going through this, for sure. Going in an industry you know will make money obviously, but whatever you're doing specifically, you might almost always be the first. The think big, start small and scale fast. That's huge.   Kristian: Yeah. If anyone wants to connect with us, Dallin and I are both on Facebook. We mentioned Periscope. I do a lot of broadcasting on there with what I call the Live Stream Marketing Funnel Show. We're rolling, if people are interested in learning how to use live video, we've got that coming out. Yeah. Connect with us on social media. Kristian Cotta and Dallin Greenberg.   Steve: Okay, yeah. Then you've got the Health Success Podcast. Guys, go check him out at Health Success Podcast as well as he said Live Stream Marketing?   Kristian: Well. Yeah. Just go to KristianCotta.com. It'll take you right there.   Steve: Cool. Awesome.   Kristian: Kristian with a K.   Steve: Kristian with a K. Cotta, right?   Dallin: I'm in.   Kristian: Kristian with a K. Cotta. Dallin's in here. He just got back in.   Dallin: Dude, I don't know what happened. I was getting all excited what Kristian was saying and then just cut off.   Kristian: It's the point of high drama, that's what we were talking about.   Dallin: I know. It was. That's what I told Amy. Is it over?   Steve: It is now.   Kristian: Yeah. We're just wrapping it up.   Steve: Awesome.   Dallin: Sorry.   Steve: It's good. Hey, thanks guys so much.   Kristian: All right. Take care, Steve.   Dallin: See you man.   Steve: All right. Bye-bye.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Thank for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answered on the show? Get your free t-shirt when your question gets answered on the live Hey Steve Show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question. (music ends)

Two Ways to Solve Every Problem Jack Butala: Two Ways to Solve Every Problem. Every Single month we give away a property for free. It's super simple to qualify. Two simple steps. Leave us your feedback for this podcast on iTunes and number two, get the free ebook at landacademy.com, you don't even have to read it. Thanks for listening. Steve: Jack Butala here from Land Academy, welcome to our Cash Flow From Land Show. In this episode, Jill and I talk about two ways to solve every problem; you can throw money at it, or time. Jill, that sounds fun. I'm sure I'll let it go sideways somehow. Before we get into it, let's take a question from a caller. Jill: Okay, Erica from LA called in and ... nice. Erica from LA called in and asked, "I know you guys are for real, but I don't know why anyone would want to live way out in the middle of nowhere." I love that, that's so funny. Steve: That's not a question, that's more of a comment. Jill: I think it's funny how that comes up. Steve: We should devise a system where these super often frequent questions would go every other one. Jill: Okay, that's a good idea. Steve: You go this time or unless you want me to. Jill: Oh no, you go. Rock, paper, scissors. Steve: Let me ask this ... okay, ready? Jill: Rock, paper, scissors. Okay, ready? All right, here we go. Steve: Best out of three? Jill: All right, just one, I just want to do one. Steve: Just one? Jill: Okay, ready? One, two, three. Steve: Oh. Jill: Shoot. Steve: We both got the paper. Go again. Jill: All right. One, two, three. Steve: Oh. Jill: Ah, I won. Steve: She won. Jill: I got paper, he had rock. Steve: I put rock. Jill: Yeah, now you got to answer the question. Steve: Why would anybody ever want to ... first of all, we never use that phrase anymore here. We don't say, "Middle of nowhere." I got sick of it about six years ago, it snucks it's way back in this office. Not this office but now that we have Land Academy. Jill: I hear it now and then, but you know what, everybody kind of gets it, they're good about it. Steve: Here's the thing, there's a bajillion people that want to live everywhere, okay? The internet's never been more popular, it's getting better and better and better. There's technology for solving your own water and sewer, and all the stuff that's required to live on properties; it gets better every year. Man, I mean, if there is problem selling these type of assets, Jill, then I guess we wouldn't have done just about sixteen thousand transactions. Jill: I know, that's the best part. It's like ... my product is flying off the shelves, so ... Steve: I've begun to say this, "Why would anybody want to live in Manhattan?" I wouldn't. Jill: That's an even better question. You're right. Steve: I'd love to go to New York for two days, it's like Las Vegas, two days and that's it. Jill: Let's think about this; you can see the sky, you can breath, you can park, people aren't running into you. Yeah, why would you live downtown? Next. Steve: You know, I never heard a million people say this, I don't understand this, but I'm going to make my point here in a second. Why would anybody live in Southern California. There's so much traffic, there's a ton of pollution, and I personally think that person's nuts. I know you agree, Jill. Jill: Did you really just say that? Steve: I love Southern California ... Jill: Okay, thank you. Steve: ... but it's just ... to each his own. People line up that are ... don't want a mortgage, first of all. It costs next to nothing to live in a lot of these places. And we don't just sell properties that we have in the middle of certain places. We sell properties everywhere, so no, I think, really, the root of the question is, "Yeah, you can buy it cheap, but does anybody really gonna buy it from you?" That's what I think the root of the question is. Jill: The answer is, "Yes."

Two Ways to Solve Every Problem Jack Butala: Two Ways to Solve Every Problem. Every Single month we give away a property for free. It's super simple to qualify. Two simple steps. Leave us your feedback for this podcast on iTunes and number two, get the free ebook at landacademy.com, you don't even have to read it. Thanks for listening. Steve: Jack Butala here from Land Academy, welcome to our Cash Flow From Land Show. In this episode, Jill and I talk about two ways to solve every problem; you can throw money at it, or time. Jill, that sounds fun. I'm sure I'll let it go sideways somehow. Before we get into it, let's take a question from a caller. Jill: Okay, Erica from LA called in and ... nice. Erica from LA called in and asked, "I know you guys are for real, but I don't know why anyone would want to live way out in the middle of nowhere." I love that, that's so funny. Steve: That's not a question, that's more of a comment. Jill: I think it's funny how that comes up. Steve: We should devise a system where these super often frequent questions would go every other one. Jill: Okay, that's a good idea. Steve: You go this time or unless you want me to. Jill: Oh no, you go. Rock, paper, scissors. Steve: Let me ask this ... okay, ready? Jill: Rock, paper, scissors. Okay, ready? All right, here we go. Steve: Best out of three? Jill: All right, just one, I just want to do one. Steve: Just one? Jill: Okay, ready? One, two, three. Steve: Oh. Jill: Shoot. Steve: We both got the paper. Go again. Jill: All right. One, two, three. Steve: Oh. Jill: Ah, I won. Steve: She won. Jill: I got paper, he had rock. Steve: I put rock. Jill: Yeah, now you got to answer the question. Steve: Why would anybody ever want to ... first of all, we never use that phrase anymore here. We don't say, "Middle of nowhere." I got sick of it about six years ago, it snucks it's way back in this office. Not this office but now that we have Land Academy. Jill: I hear it now and then, but you know what, everybody kind of gets it, they're good about it. Steve: Here's the thing, there's a bajillion people that want to live everywhere, okay? The internet's never been more popular, it's getting better and better and better. There's technology for solving your own water and sewer, and all the stuff that's required to live on properties; it gets better every year. Man, I mean, if there is problem selling these type of assets, Jill, then I guess we wouldn't have done just about sixteen thousand transactions. Jill: I know, that's the best part. It's like ... my product is flying off the shelves, so ... Steve: I've begun to say this, "Why would anybody want to live in Manhattan?" I wouldn't. Jill: That's an even better question. You're right. Steve: I'd love to go to New York for two days, it's like Las Vegas, two days and that's it. Jill: Let's think about this; you can see the sky, you can breath, you can park, people aren't running into you. Yeah, why would you live downtown? Next. Steve: You know, I never heard a million people say this, I don't understand this, but I'm going to make my point here in a second. Why would anybody live in Southern California. There's so much traffic, there's a ton of pollution, and I personally think that person's nuts. I know you agree, Jill. Jill: Did you really just say that? Steve: I love Southern California ... Jill: Okay, thank you. Steve: ... but it's just ... to each his own. People line up that are ... don't want a mortgage, first of all. It costs next to nothing to live in a lot of these places. And we don't just sell properties that we have in the middle of certain places. We sell properties everywhere, so no, I think, really, the root of the question is, "Yeah, you can buy it cheap, but does anybody really gonna buy it from you?" That's what I think the root of the question is. Jill: The answer is, "Yes."

Couples Therapy Here We Come (CFFL 0070) Jack Butala: Couples Therapy Here We Come. Every Single month we give away a property for free. It's super simple to qualify. Two simple steps. Leave us your feedback for this podcast on iTunes and number two, get the free ebook at landacademy.com, you don't even have to read it. Thanks for listening. Steve:                   Hey, Jack Butala here for Land Academy. Welcome to our cash flow from land show. In this episode, Jill and I talk about our relationship, not because I want to at all, but people keep asking us about it, so I am going to use the show to answer some questions in the hopes that they discontinue. Jill:                          I would like to know, first of all, this title cracks me up. Couples therapy, here we come. That was great. Who's asking? I don't get those questions. Steve:                   Really? Jill:                          Well, I shouldn't say that. I do get some, but no one asks me out right, they kind of dance around it and then I don't acknowledge it. Steve:                   That's what I'm talking about. You've probably had a lot of practice at that by now. Jill:                          I am very good at that. Steve:                   No, I write these titles and if you've ever listened to this show, I write the titles and they have nothing to do with the show at all. The title is just designed to get the to click the play button or listen button. Jill:                          I really don't want to have to get into all this. Steve:                   I'm just joking. Jill:                          Oh my gosh. You are the best person I have ever worked with ever. Steve:                   What? Jill:                          No, I mean that. Steve:                   You're trying to get out of going to therapy by being nice. Jill:                          Totally, just kidding. There's no therapy in our future. Steve:                   I know, there's no therapy. This show was actually ... Well, go ahead and keep complimenting me. Jill:                          Here's how I take this show, I take this show as just funny play on words/talking about working with a partner, a business partner, and not the pros and cons, but the ups and downs and why a business partner keeps you in line sometimes, well at least for me, and reminds me the things that I'm good at, the things that I'm not good at, what to focus on sometimes, what to outsource, let it go, and so I look at it about things like that. Steve:                   I think there's been a lot of points along the way, we kind of hit on this last week, it stuck with me for some reason, I don't even think you remember saying it, but when there are rough times, we've been so lucky, there's been so few. When there's rough times, you just have to kind of sit there and say "This is just a little thing." We're all going in the same direction and we'll work it out. That's always the case. I think there's few systematic things that we've put in place in the last few months that really, really make this really click and work. Having separate offices works for me, taking separate cars to work to our office, a lot of things like that just keep us a little more separate and professional when we're here than in the social part of our life. Jill:                          Exactly. Steve:                   Sometimes Jill falls asleep during a podcast. Jill:                          Oh, that happens. Steve:                   She is right now. Jill:                          Jill loses interest very quickly. That's a whole other one, that's a funny topic about- Steve:                   I can tell when you're bored with something right away, I mean immediately. Jill:                          You can see my eyes gloss over? Steve:                   Just yeah, you're thinking about something else, that actually just happened.

You know how to whistle, don't you Steve? Just put your lips together and blow. This week's Cinema Playground: Screen Test features three movie scenes featuring whistling. Can you name the movie, year, and tune?